# Another anti camper council?



## karakachan (Apr 11, 2018)

My other half saw this on facebook...they don't like missing out on their council tax...do they

Rother District Council passed the PSPO public space protection order to ban sleeping OR habitating ANY motor vehicle on the highway or public space between 11pm and 7am starting 1st July 2018. Rother covers Rye in the East to close to Pevensey in the West up to wadhurst/Ticehurst in the north. 200 sq miles. We are trying to appeal for everyone, full timers, holiday makers, lorry drivers. It includes all ! Via the Local Government ombudsmen.


----------



## campervanannie (Apr 11, 2018)

That’s sad because we are losing some cracking spots around Rye and Pevensey a regular haunt for Me and Bill on our annual south coast trek.


----------



## oldish hippy (Apr 11, 2018)

just quote the highway code do not drive if tired so what are you meant to do if normal let alone disabled the is is discramnation against disbled let alone normal peeps it does scare them when  it rears its ugly head
quote section 6
Camping or sleeping at night [during the hours of darkness] on the beach
(excluding persons fishing), public open space, the highway or shop doorways
and curtilages   think we going tohave to get some fishing tackle and some sticker for bus  like prefer fishing to this councils policys



ps how do you fish when asleep is it called dream fishing


----------



## Les Haro (Apr 11, 2018)

Just exchanged messages with a resident of the area. 
She didn't have a problem with the guy living on the front or people sleeping on the beach, obviously some residents do have a problem with this.


----------



## delicagirl (Apr 11, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> Take a look at the rubbish disposal as many would fall foul on that one !
> http://www.rother.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=28999&p=0




This list of anti social behaviours covers just about anything anyone could EVER do at any time no matter what age or time etc etc....  its monstrous and is clearly an abuse of process  .    These orders were meant to deal with a particular problem as notified to the council in sufficient numbers to be deemed a nuisance....   not to be used as a blanket ban for all human behaviour.    

Is Rother saying its Order WILL cover all these ?   Or are they just listing what they COULD cover? 

But i cant somehow see the police getting involved in any of these things in terms of prosecution -  they have enough to do with not chasing serious criminals


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

delicagirl said:


> This list of anti social behaviours covers just about anything anyone could EVER do at any time no matter what age or time etc etc....  its monstrous and is clearly an abuse of process  .    These orders were meant to deal with a particular problem as notified to the council in sufficient numbers to be deemed a nuisance....   not to be used as a blanket ban for all human behaviour.
> 
> Is Rother saying its Order WILL cover all these ?   Or are they just listing what they COULD cover?
> 
> But i cant somehow see the police getting involved in any of these things in terms of prosecution -  they have enough to do with not chasing serious criminals



I agree, I think we will see more and more PSPO.s used. It certainly seems local authorities are abusing democratic process and consultation 1984 springs to mind 

Channa


----------



## maingate (Apr 11, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> Take a look at the rubbish disposal as many would fall foul on that one !
> http://www.rother.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=28999&p=0



It looks like they have everything covered there Charlie. I particularly liked the last one 'causing harassment, distress or alarm by siting a skip on the highway'. :lol-061:


----------



## delicagirl (Apr 11, 2018)

maingate said:


> It looks like they have everything covered there Charlie. I particularly liked the last one 'causing harassment, distress or alarm by siting a skip on the highway'. :lol-061:




Unless of course the skip-placer has paid a license fee to the council in advance, in which case all the harrassment distress and alarm is perfectly OKAY !!!!


----------



## maingate (Apr 11, 2018)

Les Haro said:


> Just exchanged messages with a resident of the area.
> She didn't have a problem with the guy living on the front or people sleeping on the beach, obviously some residents do have a problem with this.



The Council Officials responsible have both got hyphenated names ..... very sinister. :scared:

It's the Cholmondley-Smyths of this World who are taking our freedoms away.


----------



## GeoffL (Apr 11, 2018)

The thing that worries me more about this abuse of powers more than forbidding us to overnight in a council's domain is that it also forbids those who cannot legally continue driving from taking their required breaks (i.e. commercial drivers). You hit the 10 hour driving / 11 hour duty deadline and you're not permitted to drive for at least 9 hours. So what takes precedence? (I suspect drivers hours rules for those with a tacho and the PSPO for those without). Extrapolating: if it's dangerous for a van driver in charge of 3.5 tonnes of vehicle to continue driving, what about someone in charge of a 4.2 tonne motorhome?

Of course, this could all be avoided if councils adopted the French approach and established proper stopover points (i.e. aires!)


----------



## Deleted member 52918 (Apr 11, 2018)

This is an outrageous abuse of the public's trust in the council's mandate, to treat their residents & visitors to the area fairly.
It seems very apparent that certain councillors are trying to stop the general public from enjoying the freedoms that have been their right for hundreds of years, especially when you consider the closing of public rights of way.

These rights of way or footpaths, have been a bone of contention between the land owners & users for as long as I can remember, these PSPO's are just another nail in the rights of the public to enjoy an area to the full!

The wording in this PSPO is a good example of legislation being written by people with zero foresight.
Rubbish bins are provided by the council to enable people to deposit their litter in, rather than scattering it on the streets. If this is stopped then people will dump it in the countryside instead.

All drivers of whatever vehicle need to rest/sleep at some time on a long journey, so if they won't allow the driver of a 40 ton lorry to have a kip in a layby, then will they take responsibility when that driver falls asleep & kills a few people because of their policies!!!

people are going to die because fire engines can't get to the fire, because there are vehicles blocking the roads, a contentious one this, as it's not nice for those who are in wheel chairs or blind to have to deal with them.

So you can't place a skip in the road, but if you get a licence, you can dump it right in the middle, according to their wording anyway!

It's all about eroding our rights in the name of public safety.

Phill


----------



## Tezza (Apr 11, 2018)

Quite right , us travelers ( and those in the different traveling communities) should be allowed to park up where we want . And I know it seems strange but I’m always tired when I get to a seaside town or a beauty spot . I wonder why I never seem to get tired in a old mining village in Wales  or  Winson green ?


----------



## QFour (Apr 11, 2018)

They will be wondering where all the tourists have gone next. Pubs and Restaurants closing through lack of trade. Obsurd rules made by Councilors who have no idea how they will enforce them. They will have to publish all these rules otherwise how is anyone going to know they even exist or will they use the ignorance of the law is no defence.

How come fishermen are exempt :lol-053: Must be some fishermen / women on the Council.

Not surprising many head for foreign parts ..


----------



## maingate (Apr 11, 2018)

Tezza said:


> Quite right , us travelers ( and those in the different traveling communities) should be allowed to park up where we want . And I know it seems strange but I’m always tired when I get to a seaside town or a beauty spot . I wonder why I never seem to get tired in a old mining village in Wales  or  Winson green ?



So you support the introduction of PSPOs then?


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Apr 11, 2018)

GeoffL said:


> The thing that worries me more about this abuse of powers more than forbidding us to overnight in a council's domain is that it also forbids those who cannot legally continue driving from taking their required breaks (i.e. commercial drivers). You hit the 10 hour driving / 11 hour duty deadline and you're not permitted to drive for at least 9 hours. So what takes precedence? (I suspect drivers hours rules for those with a tacho and the PSPO for those without). Extrapolating: if it's dangerous for a* van driver in charge of 3.5 tonnes of vehicle to continue driving, what about someone in charge of a 4.2 tonne motorhome?*
> 
> Of course, this could all be avoided if councils adopted the French approach and established proper stopover points (i.e. aires!)



Because a 3.5t van does not need a tacho and tacho rules, you could have better worded that as:- 

'van driver in charge of a *4.2t* van...........'.

Then the point is valid.

Geoff


----------



## antiquesam (Apr 11, 2018)

So where do we complain?


----------



## Tezza (Apr 11, 2018)

maingate said:


> So you support the introduction of PSPOs then?



I don’t have a problem with them. If somebody doesn’t want me to park then I won’t. I will go elsewhere to sleep. For example you can’t sleep in your van in Weymouth ‘s free overnight car parks . But you go to the outskirts and park up at the side of the road then nothing the council can do . Most towns have a industrial estate , or out of town shopping sites. And people rant about lorries , you never see them in town car parks do you?


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Apr 11, 2018)

Tezza said:


> I don’t have a problem with them. If somebody doesn’t want me to park then I won’t. I will go elsewhere to sleep. For example you can’t sleep in your van in Weymouth ‘s free overnight car parks . But you go to the outskirts and park up at the side of the road then nothing the council can do . Most towns have a industrial estate , or out of town shopping sites. And people rant about lorries , you never see them in town car parks do you?



Rother covers an area of 200 sq.miles!


----------



## phillybarbour (Apr 11, 2018)

That’s a big area to have that sort of restriction in place, how the hell are people meant to know?


----------



## REC (Apr 11, 2018)

No BBQ on the beach either (13) or even yoga in the park (16)! They are going to have fun with people being "upset" by so many things!  We love Rye, but will avoid in future. Has anyone found an address to email?


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

PSPO.s may be used legitimately but equally it is a piece of legislation open to abuse where the affected can do very little.

Hopefully a "Gina Miller" type person takes one to court so sensibility might show its colors

Channa


----------



## oldish hippy (Apr 11, 2018)

Services Directorate
Dr. Anthony Leonard - Executive Director of Business Operations

This is headed by an Executive Director and comprises the following service areas:

Strategy and Planning
Environmental Services and Licensing
Community and Economy


----------



## Nabsim (Apr 11, 2018)

REC said:


> No BBQ on the beach either (13) or even yoga in the park (16)! They are going to have fun with people being "upset" by so many things!  We love Rye, but will avoid in future. Has anyone found an address to email?





customerservices@rother.gov.uk

complaintsmanager@rother.gov.uk


----------



## maureenandtom (Apr 11, 2018)

Les Haro said:


> Just exchanged messages with a resident of the area.
> She didn't have a problem with the guy living on the front or people sleeping on the beach, obviously some residents do have a problem with this.



No, they don't.    Councils always say they do.  But they don't,   Here are the total number of complaints in Rother over the past three years.







This justifies a Public Spaces Protection Order?  You think if a Ford Escort abandoned the council would have banned Ford Escorts?  No ... make it into a complaint about motorhomes.



channa said:


> I agree, I think we will see more and more PSPO.s used. It certainly seems local authorities are abusing democratic process and consultation 1984 springs to mind
> 
> Channa



I think you're right.   

Beware the Public Spaces Protection Order

I've been without a van for over half a year now and I'm beginning to believe that I'll not have a van ever again;   though it's badly missed.    Until it was stolen I'd had vans since 1990.   I think the Golden Age is over.



Tezza said:


> I don’t have a problem with them. If somebody doesn’t want me to park then I won’t. I will go elsewhere to sleep. For example you can’t sleep in your van in Weymouth ‘s free overnight car parks . But you go to the outskirts and park up at the side of the road then nothing the council can do . Most towns have a industrial estate , or out of town shopping sites. And people rant about lorries , you never see them in town car parks do you?



And this is why will run out of _elsewhere to sleep._  We're all too frghtened of this, mostly, mythical person who doesn't want us to park.  We will always lose spaces - because we never fight back and, if some of us do, then we won't support them.

I have no idea how to beat a PSPO.   We need a Gina Millar on the job (thanks Channa).


----------



## Debroos (Apr 11, 2018)

How is it enforced? I seem to remember something about it not having to go to court. Is it an instant fine? presumably there must be some form of appeal...


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

Your understanding is pretty spot on....there doesn't seem to be any requirement to give notice the onus is upon you ...PSPO will become one of the most ill app ropriated pieces of legislation ever ...a very real problem to motorhoming unlike TROS and bylaws which need to be quoted I cant find evidence of a PSPO in place where street furniture need to advise of the fact ....The issue really is for years public authorities have intimidated with illegal signage (highlands Scotland )
We aren't playing on a level playing field 

Channa


----------



## maureenandtom (Apr 11, 2018)

Enforced by a Fixed Penalty Notice.  The PSPO has created a crime.

There is no right of appeal






Your only chance is to wait for your criminal prosecution in the Magistrates' Court and give your defence there.


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

Very convenient and don't forget they can employ leeches like kingdom if you haven't googled take a look had two runnings with them so far 

Channa


----------



## Tezza (Apr 11, 2018)

I can’t see a camper van having any issues parking up for a night on a road , lay-by or trading estate . As long as it’s for the night , your not having bbq’s and not causing a obstruction or nuisance. After all your only parked up there because you were tired. So you will be gone in the morning ?


----------



## maureenandtom (Apr 11, 2018)

This is, allegedly, a Kingdom employee, contracted by Conwy Council, issuing a Fixed Penalty Notice.






Taken from Se connecter a Facebook | Facebook which is now sadly a closed group.  

I've seen reported that when Kingdom take over parking enforcement using PSPOs the firm will be funded similar to this:

Kingdom's PS400,000 bonanza from targeting dog walkers and litterers - Daily Post


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Apr 11, 2018)

maureenandtom said:


> Enforced by a Fixed Penalty Notice.  The PSPO has created a crime.
> 
> There is no right of appeal
> 
> ...



Was that quote from the PSPO itself?


Who would they prosecute, if you do not give your name? The Registered Keeper? Do they have that authority under law?

How many Enforcement Officers will they need for all thesr 'offences'? 

Geoff


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Was that quote from the PSPO itself?
> 
> 
> Who would they prosecute, if you do not give your name? The Registered Keeper? Do they have that authority under law?
> ...



If stopped YES you do have a legal obligation to provide a name and address separate legislation contained within a PSPO 

Channa


----------



## Deleted member 52918 (Apr 11, 2018)

If we do nothing, we will be the cause of our loss of freedom.

we must somehow join together to fight these insidious measures to minutely control us.

If councils are going to start using companies like Kingdom, then it's only the start of the police state.

I believe that Kingdom is using methods bordering on intimidation, to make people who are innocent feel/appear guilty.

We should demand to see the backgrounds of the people they employ, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that most of them have a criminal background!
It's obvious from the amount of cases that are thrown out of court that this company is operating for the most part, with dubious legality.

There must be some way to force these councils to see sense & that what they are doing is morally reprehensible.
It will only resort in the areas affected becoming poorer & people will lose their jobs because of it.

It might also be a boost for our corner, if we reported those that think it's ok to use the countryside like a dustbin!!

We need someone with a bit of nous, to captain our ship as it sails into battle with the councils unfair tactics!
Have I gone to far now:danger:

Phill


----------



## GeoffL (Apr 11, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Because a 3.5t van does not need a tacho and tacho rules, you could have better worded that as:-
> 
> 'van driver in charge of a *4.2t* van...........'.
> 
> ...


For info, a 3.5 tonne van does not need a tacho, but anyone driving one on business is subject to the driving hours rules. See Driving a van - GOV.UK and 2. Great Britain domestic rules - Drivers’ hours and tachographs: goods vehicles - Guidance - GOV.UK. FWIW, this is one reason why one of my clients wouldn't let me drive my van from Plymouth to Bristol, do a full day's work and then drive back; as they would have been obliged to arrange overnight accommodation. It was cheaper for them to provide a hire car as the driving hours rules don't apply to cars


----------



## Deleted member 52918 (Apr 11, 2018)

It looks like some welsh councils have terminated their contracts with Kingdom.

So we may be getting the point made for us.

I've just been reading some articles online, I typed Kingdom council enforcement.

They make interesting reading.

Phill


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

I wont tell you I told you so !!...any company trying to press a littering charge feeding bread to ducks must be questioned. Cooked rice aside is far better we must consider the motives of the company and its profitering agenda .They are as concerned with transparent legal process as I am sneaking an extra 400 fags on my jollies

One motivation and it isn't legal process nor justice balance sheet and a profit and loss account 

I have had two run ins with these feckers both occasions no more than accusation ...I am awkward fight my corner but I know for fact my elderly neighbours wouldn't ...legalised extortion these twats 

Channa


----------



## CarlandHels (Apr 11, 2018)

Is it worth getting a gathering of travellers and general motorhome owners to visit said areas and show the councils how big this community is? There would be plenty of us to stir the councils and get the media involved...

Then we could get some truth about the discriminations made to us motorhomers....??

Or do a drive through and stop over a little like when the tractors and trucks did over the price of fuel etc....

I wouldn't know how to arrange it tho, but i would turn up and join everyone...


----------



## alcam (Apr 11, 2018)

channa said:


> If stopped YES you do have a legal obligation to provide a name and address separate legislation contained within a PSPO
> 
> Channa



If stopped by who ?


----------



## maureenandtom (Apr 11, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Was that quote from the PSPO itself?
> 
> 
> Who would they prosecute, if you do not give your name? The Registered Keeper? Do they have that authority under law?
> ...



I googled _"how is a pspo enforced"_ and took that from the list google provided.   It's one of those URLs that lead to a pdf file and I can never make a proper link that works.    So I've downloaded it to my dropbox and you can see it or download it from there if you wish.  Nice to see you again.

Dropbox - PSPO_enforcement_policy_v2.1-2.pdf

I'm not sure about giving your name.   I'm guessing that there'll somehow be a way of making you do so or intimidating you into giving it.   There are stories about dog walkers being followed to their homes or cars.   Registered Keeper stuff then I'm not sure.     I've seen somewhere, google it again, that if Penalty Notices are issued by PCSOs then they have access to the police database.    But I don't know for sure.   This sort of resistance is not something that most people would do.  Confronted by _"authority"_ insisting that you give personal information, I think most would just give it.

No idea how many enforcement officer they would need but that would be a commercial decision by Kingdom or whoever the council subcontracted the work to.


----------



## maureenandtom (Apr 11, 2018)

There's going to be plenty of Enforcement Officer jobs available.

Fixed Penalty Officer Jobs in England - April 2018 | Indeed.co.uk

Here's an example:

Environmental Enforcement Officer

Ealing Council

*£9.75 per hour*

*Plus monthly salary enhancement*

*Kingdom are the UK’s leading Environmental Enforcement provider* and due to our continued growth within this industry working on behalf of local authorities. We are now recruiting for the position of Environmental Enforcement Officer based at Ealing Council.

Your role will involve patrolling the borough working in line with the relevant local authority’s deployment strategy and issuing Fixed Penalty Notices to offenders in contravention of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005.

You will be required to work 40-48 hours per week, Monday to Friday (including occasional weekends) shifts between 7am and 8pm, flexibility for the role is essential.


----------



## runnach (Apr 11, 2018)

alcam said:


> If stopped by who ?




If Kingdom employees should stop you then they are authorised officers of the local authority and this applies might not apply in Scotland but I don't live there 


Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005

Channa


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Apr 12, 2018)

channa said:


> If Kingdom employees should stop you then they are authorised officers of the local authority and this applies might not apply in Scotland but I don't live there
> 
> 
> Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005
> ...



But that is specifically under s.7 of that act, for an alleged offence under S.6 of that Act.

Does that Act. cover PSPOs?


----------



## runnach (Apr 12, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> But that is specifically under s.7 of that act, for an alleged offence under S.6 of that Act.
> 
> Does that Act. cover PSPOs?



The purpose of my post was more to dispel the myth that if approached by authorised enforcement officers there is a legal obligation to disclose name and address 

Totally different but still authorised officers other legislation also makes it an offence not to divulge information i.e s172 Road Traffic Act Environment agency fishing without rod licence

I don't know the specifics of PSPO' s however considering how legislation is drafted (eg above) I would be surprised if it were not an offence

Channa


----------



## GeoffL (Apr 12, 2018)

Section 6 relates to offences detailed in sections 3 and 4, which relate to offering vehicles for sale and repairing vehicles in the road respectively. Nothing there about overnighting contrary to any PSPO!


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Apr 12, 2018)

GeoffL said:


> Section 6 relates to offences detailed in sections 3 and 4, which relate to offering vehicles for sale and repairing vehicles in the road respectively. Nothing there about overnighting contrary to any PSPO!



Even if there is a requirement to give name and address, what can an Enforcement Officer do if one refuses - he has no power of arrest. He could call the police, but if one is long-gone if/when they respond are they going to put out an 'All ports' alert - I think not.

Maybe my refusal to give my name might by some seem unreasoable, but then so are the draftings of these PSPOs.

It strikes me that there is a very undemocratic process going on here- I will expand:-



We the voters/taxpayers vote in a Government in Westminster.

That Government drafts enabling legislation empowering Local Councils to enact PSPOs, probably partly to save Parliament the trouble.

The Local Councils have little expertise, even within their legal departments, in drafting legislation and often come out with nonsense.

Much of the PSPO legislation is unenforcable.

The Local Council do not have enough Officers qualified to enforce.

The Local Council then outsource to private companies, which they probably do not properly brief nor train, to enforce the PSPO.

To my mind this long chain breaks the Principles of UK democracy under which Parliament is the Supreme Legislator and Overseer of the operation of the Legal System. 

Geoff


----------



## Nabsim (Apr 15, 2018)

What part is unenforceable in these? This is a genuine question, I am not trying to be smart this is new to me so I don't know. I have seen the 'Call the Bailiff's' type programs on the box where folks are in much trouble for ignoring various types of parking tickets so I would err on the side of caution if I got one.

If there is an easy way to know what is or isn't enforceable I would appreciate knowing


----------



## 2cv (Apr 15, 2018)

I find the most worrying part of this to be that you can easily and inadvertently acquire a criminal record by breaching a PSPO. This can have many consequences, just an example being difficulty in travel abroad to places such as USA.


----------



## mistericeman (Apr 15, 2018)

2cv said:


> I find the most worrying part of this to be that you can easily and inadvertently acquire a criminal record by breaching a PSPO. This can have many consequences, just an example being difficulty in travel abroad to places such as USA.



Way things are at the moment, 
NOT being able to visit Trumpville MIGHT be no bad thing ;-)


----------



## Jeff G (Apr 15, 2018)

2cv said:


> I find the most worrying part of this to be that you can easily and inadvertently acquire a criminal record by breaching a PSPO. This can have many consequences, just an example being difficulty in travel abroad to places such as USA.



There was a case on Panorama where a woman was issued with a fine for fly-tipping outside her own home after she put her recycling out on the wrong date during the Christmas holidays.Worth a criminal record that one

Country is going to the dogs with Clowncils more and more desperate to raise funds by fines.A fifty fifty split with their ill gotten gains with Kingdom


----------



## maureenandtom (Aug 4, 2018)

karakachan said:


> My other half saw this on facebook...they don't like missing out on their council tax...do they
> 
> Rother District Council passed the PSPO public space protection order to ban sleeping OR habitating ANY motor vehicle on the highway or public space between 11pm and 7am starting 1st July 2018. Rother covers Rye in the East to close to Pevensey in the West up to wadhurst/Ticehurst in the north. 200 sq miles. We are trying to appeal for everyone, full timers, holiday makers, lorry drivers. It includes all ! Via the Local Government ombudsmen.



Rother lies within the area of East Sussex County Council and some responsibilities will be shared between them.  Parking is likely one of them; if they follow the norm then one will be responsible for on-street parking regulation and the other for off-street parking.   But only one of them will be responsible for enforcement.

East Sussex County Council is having financial difficulties and is cutting services to the legal minimum East Sussex County Council cuts services to 'legal minimum' - BBC News

... and also in their Wiki page East Sussex County Council - Wikipedia

_East Sussex County Council plans to cut services to a bare legal minimum, to avoid bankruptcy (they published the plans round July 2018). The council said that unless funding from central government increases, a core offer {not giving services to many elderly people who would otherwise qualify} would be the most services it could afford to provide. Unless local authority finances improve radically, even this very basic level of local authority service may be unaffordable by 2021.[3]_

And yet ... there's always money to repress motorhome parking.


----------

