# Dept of Transport and Pop Top roof



## Spike (Dec 10, 2020)

Has anyone converted a van into a campervan with a Pop Top Roof recently?

Is the DoT only accepting High Roof vans

Cheers

Spike


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## mark61 (Dec 10, 2020)

Haven't converted a van recently, but it still states "a high-top roof (this does not include a pop-top elevating roof) on gov site. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...van/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motor-caravan


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## trevskoda (Dec 10, 2020)

It will come back as a van with windows, not a motorcaravan.


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## molly 2 (Dec 10, 2020)

Why have they done this  Confused . Com


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## Robmac (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> Why have they done this  Confused . Com



To be awkward Bazz.

A bit of power turns peoples heads.


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## wildebus (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> Why have they done this  Confused . Com


The official reason is so the emergency services can identify vehicles better.

That explanation makes no sense at all.  I would not be surprised if the _real _reason is the amount of people playing the system and getting vans reclassified as Motor Caravans without actually doing anything to them by submitting internal photos of other already converted campers with their request (conversions on a year by year basis were going up 2 or 3 fold times I saw when I got the Request and Accepted volumes for Motor Caravan reclassification requests via a FOIR)
If you look at the VW Forums and see the number od people boasting about doing just that kind of thing you would understand  (and I bet there are plenty of other forums where people with Transits, Renaults, Ducatos, etc, etc are doing just the same).

Reap what you sow....


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## campervanannie (Dec 10, 2020)

wildebus said:


> The official reason is so the emergency services can identify vehicles better.
> 
> That explanation makes no sense at all.  I would not be surprised if the _real _reason is the amount of people playing the system and getting vans reclassified as Motor Caravans without actually doing anything to them by submitting internal photos of other already converted campers with their request (conversions on a year by year basis were going up 2 or 3 fold times I saw when I got the Request and Accepted volumes for Motor Caravan reclassification requests via a FOIR)
> If you look at the VW Forums and see the number od people boasting about doing just that kind of thing you would understand  (and I bet there are plenty of other forums where people with Transits, Renaults, Ducatos, etc, etc are doing just the same).
> ...


I would have thought the only way to get away with that was putting your number plates on an @lready converted van because when I did one of my vans you had to send pics looking in through the windscreen with plates visible and looking in through one back door open the one with plate on closed so they could see it in the picture then the various internal pics of fixed table, bed, sink and cupboards.


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## molly 2 (Dec 10, 2020)

What is the advantage of falsely  reclassifiying  a panel, van  to a motorhome  ??


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## trevskoda (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> What is the advantage of falsely  reclassifiying  a panel, van  to a motorhome  ??


Insurance is much less, ie £200 for camper & £700 for com van, so some one wants a van just to take a bike to the hills or the odd dump run etc, see what im getting at.


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## molly 2 (Dec 10, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Insurance is much less, ie £200 for camper & £700 for com van, so some one wants a van just to take a bike to the hills or the odd dump run etc, see what im getting at.


A commercial  vehicle would normally have expensive  business cover ,  cant a ex  commercial  vehicle  be insured  just for social  domestic  and pleasure


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## wildebus (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> What is the advantage of falsely  reclassifiying  a panel, van  to a motorhome  ??


as Trev says.
Plus increased Speed Limits (change from Van Speeds of 50/60 for Single/Dual Carriageways to Car Speeds of 60/70)


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## trevskoda (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> A commercial  vehicle would normally have expensive  business cover ,  cant a ex  commercial  vehicle  be insured  just for social  domestic  and pleasure


Not in N Ireland, or at least thats what ins co told me years back when i tried, maybe changed now but not sure.


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## wildebus (Dec 10, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> A commercial  vehicle would normally have expensive  business cover ,  cant a ex  commercial  vehicle  be insured  just for social  domestic  and pleasure


The rules are different in Northern Ireland - there I think a Commercial must be insured as a commercial vehicle whereas in Great Britain you can insure for just private use - but having said that, a Motor Caravan is still much cheaper to install anyway in GB.  Plus you can transfer NCD to a Camper which you can't to a van.


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## wildebus (Dec 10, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> I would have thought the only way to get away with that was putting your number plates on an @lready converted van because when I did one of my vans you had to send pics looking in through the windscreen with plates visible and looking in through one back door open the one with plate on closed so they could see it in the picture then the various internal pics of fixed table, bed, sink and cupboards.


I don't recall having to take photos that showed both external AND internal in the same shot on my conversions.
People would also thow a duvet on a load of boxes  ("The Bed") and stuff like that. Conversions never get inspected by DVSA any more so the chance of getting caught was zero. And if inspection requested (never heard of it happening) I suppose the owner wouldn't bother arranging it (consequence?  none  - just no reclassification)


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## campervanannie (Dec 11, 2020)

wildebus said:


> I don't recall having to take photos that showed both external AND internal in the same shot on my conversions.
> People would also thow a duvet on a load of boxes  ("The Bed") and stuff like that. Conversions never get inspected by DVSA any more so the chance of getting caught was zero. And if inspection requested (never heard of it happening) I suppose the owner wouldn't bother arranging it (consequence?  none  - just no reclassification)


Well I got the instructions from a gov website and they were very specific about showing the reg plate with an internal view and the only thing I cheated on was the fixed table as I didn’t want one I had to do a fine balancing act for the pic this was a few years back so maybe things have changed.


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## wildebus (Dec 11, 2020)

The fixed table is the usual thing that people who make a genuine camper have an issue with out of the rules (which are perfectly reasonable IMO).
on my first camper, I didn't have a table as such, but I had a worktop that slid open to reveal the stove top, and that worktop went over the seat - so I placed a plate, cup and cutlery on the worktop when open and that satisfied the DVLA 
On the last one I did fit the classic centre pole with a tabletop to meet the requirements.  The silly thing is my Motorhome does not have a fixed table at all, like many don't, and just a free-standing one, but that appears to be ok on coach-builts for some reason?  (Although I will actually be fitting a fixed one shortly as it happens!)


PS. Like all things motoring in the UK, there are different guidelines to requirements depending on when you look.  You will see some people that insist you need water storage and a minimum of two cooking rings because they read info that is actually designed for a different conversion audience.  Neither of which were required to satisfy a Motor Caravan reclassification.


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## Robmac (Dec 11, 2020)

wildebus said:


> The rules are different in Northern Ireland - there I think a Commercial must be insured as a commercial vehicle whereas in Great Britain you can insure for just private use - but having said that, a Motor Caravan is still much cheaper to install anyway in GB.  Plus you can transfer NCD to a Camper which you can't to a van.



I've never been allowed to transfer NCD to a motorhome/camper.

Can I ask who you are insured with?


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## colinm (Dec 11, 2020)

Robmac said:


> I've never been allowed to transfer NCD to a motorhome/camper.
> 
> Can I ask who you are insured with?


I've transferred NCB between cars, commercial vans, and motorhomes. It all comes down to the insurer, although the transfer from car to commercial van and back again was many years ago, the last transfer from car to motorhome was 10 years ago.


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## mark61 (Dec 11, 2020)

Mine is still registered as van but insured as MH, can't remember what the price difference was, all insurance is top whack with my post code. Was once given a quote of over £5000 for a van.    Luckily don't pay anywhere near that.

Re, fixed table. Pretty sure it's only table mount that has to be fixed/permanent, not the table itself.


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## GeoffL (Dec 11, 2020)

*Re. insuring vans for private use:*
I had a Citroen Dispatch bought new in 2001 that I sold on last year. I initially bought it for business use but needed social, domestic and pleasure use (SDP) after I retired, which was a few years before state retirement age. Up until three years ago (when I reached state retirement age), I couldn't get non-business insurance for that van via any of the usual comparison sites or three brokers that I've used at some point. Three years ago, I found several underwriters who offered SDP cover. Perhaps it was coincidence that I managed to get SDP cover only after I'd reached state retirement age?

*Re. transfer of NCD:*
I've transferred NCD from a car to the Citroen Dispatch back in 2001. When I bought the moho, I transferred the NCD from the Dispatch to the moho (and paid the increased insurance for the panel van) as the money I saved on the moho insurance was more than the extra I had to pay on the panel van. Each time, I needed to shop round for an insurer who would accept transfer of NCD between vehicle types. However, it's only for the first year as you keep the NCD with that vehicle subsequently.

*The biggest 'gotcha'?:*
For me, the biggest 'gotcha' is that insurance companies didn't seem to like 'part conversions'. I bought the Citroen Dispatch to use as a mobile office as I needed somewhere to set up a computer and write draft documentation for machinery and plant while on site. So I insulated and carpet-lined the back, fitted a table and installed a 12v 'leisure battery' system. Over two thirds of insurers would not quote for that van because it had 'unacceptable modifications'. So I considered going the whole hog and converting it to a camper. However, I found difficulty getting insurers to offer business use on a camper conversion and, as a full conversion would have merely been expediency to get around recalcitrant insurers, I never bothered!

HTH, Geoff


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## trevskoda (Dec 11, 2020)

The simple thing would be if a mot test centre looked at van and if it ticked all the boxes a form from them stating this and posted to dvla should be mandatory, a small charge of say £30 which I think most folk would be happy with.
This would do away with the cowboys and the test centre would have a set of proper regs to go on from dvla.


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## myvanwy (Dec 11, 2020)

Just remind me Trev. When was the last time a government dept. did the simplest thing?


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## campervanannie (Dec 11, 2020)

mark61 said:


> Mine is still registered as van but insured as MH, can't remember what the price difference was, all insurance is top whack with my post code. Was once given a quote of over £5000 for a van.    Luckily don't pay anywhere near that.
> 
> Re, fixed table. Pretty sure it's only table mount that has to be fixed/permanent, not the table itself.


Yes that’s what I meant but the photo had to show the table in situ hence the balancing act


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## campervanannie (Dec 11, 2020)

When I insured one of my vans with Adrian Flux because it was not registered as a camper but wanted to insure it as one they sent a form that I had to take the van and the form to a garage and they had to check out certain items in the van like cooker table water and they had to measure the bed it was a tick sheet with a box for bed size then they had to stamp with MOT stamp and sign and return to A F in a pre paid envelope once A F received this they would insure as a camper. I  had trouble with them when I changed vans @nd insured with another broker they would not transfer my NCB to the new insurance.


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## Tookey (Dec 11, 2020)

wildebus said:


> The official reason is so the emergency services can identify vehicles better.
> 
> That explanation makes no sense at all.  I would not be surprised if the _real _reason is the amount of people playing the system and getting vans reclassified as Motor Caravans without actually doing anything to them by submitting internal photos of other already converted campers with their request (conversions on a year by year basis were going up 2 or 3 fold times I saw when I got the Request and Accepted volumes for Motor Caravan reclassification requests via a FOIR)
> If you look at the VW Forums and see the number od people boasting about doing just that kind of thing you would understand  (and I bet there are plenty of other forums where people with Transits, Renaults, Ducatos, etc, etc are doing just the same).
> ...


I agree with with you about the 'real' reason but in the event of an RTA a camper looking like a camper will assist the services with identifying a potential gas source and checking the rear of the van for occupants


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## Nabsim (Dec 11, 2020)

Changing classification should require a visit to an inspector/IVA (or whatever they call it now) type of thing. No arguments then


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## wildebus (Dec 11, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Changing classification should require a visit to an inspector/IVA (or whatever they call it now) type of thing. No arguments then


Might happen.
Just be greatful that you don't live in Spain, Italy, France, etc.   The amount of changes you can do as a private individual to a van to make a Camper  (ignoring any reclassification desires) can be tiny.  Fitting a roof vent that is not original can mean MOT (equivalent) failures. Different wheels?  no chance!  Want side running bars? on your bike!
People don't realise how flexible and relaxed the UK (GB anyway) is regarding messing about with vehicles compared to most of Europe!


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## Nabsim (Dec 11, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Might happen.
> Just be greatful that you don't live in Spain, Italy, France, etc.   The amount of changes you can do as a private individual to a van to make a Camper  (ignoring any reclassification desires) can be tiny.  Fitting a roof vent that is not original can mean MOT (equivalent) failures. Different wheels?  no chance!  Want side running bars? on your bike!
> People don't realise how flexible and relaxed the UK (GB anyway) is regarding messing about with vehicles compared to most of Europe!


I have gone through the testing process a couple of times with trike builds. If you do everything right it isn’t a problem normally. I agree it is a lot easier here than other places but any major change or reclassification should be tested IMO


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## Markd (Dec 11, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> Well I got the instructions from a gov website and they were very specific about showing the reg plate with an internal view and the only thing I cheated on was the fixed table as I didn’t want one I had to do a fine balancing act for the pic this was a few years back so maybe things have changed.


Table can be movable anyway to allow conversion to bed base.


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## Markd (Dec 11, 2020)

Don't worry about having a pop top - they won't give you motorhome classification whatever you do.

So do whatever you want for your own convenience it's going to be a van with windows


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## GeoffL (Dec 11, 2020)

*Re. classification as a motor  caravan vs a van with windows and speed limits:* I haven't been able to work out what the speed limits are in UK. According to this government webpage, "motorhomes and motor caravans with an unladen weight of 3.05 tonnes or less" have a speed limit of 70mph on dual carriageways, 60mph on single carriageways, etc. However, there is no such body type as "motorhome" and all motorhomes are either "motor caravans" or "vans with windows". The linked government webpage makes an implicity distinction between "motorhome" and "motorcaravan" and also states that, "Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they carry goods for exhibition and sale; are used as a workshop; or are used for storage". From this, I infer that it's the actual use to which the vehicle is being put rather than its body type that matters and hence a "van with windows" conversion used recreationally as a motorhome should be subject to the higher speed limits. That said, I am not a lawyer...


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

This is the nub and backs up DVLA point.
Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'
Yes there's a technicality about carriage of goods and an argument that motorcycle inside is carriage - but that wouldn't be obvious.
I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.


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## Debs (Dec 12, 2020)

I talked to my insurance about the DVLA stance, and their reply was that they fully understood the situation, and said that as long as I apply for re-classification within a certain time frame, they were quite happy to continue the insurance.  My Insurance are only concerned that the vehicle is used solely for pleasure and not for the conveyance of goods, and not for hire or reward.


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## GeoffL (Dec 12, 2020)

Markd said:


> This is the nub and backs up DVLA point.
> Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'
> Yes there's a technicality about carriage of goods and an argument that motorcycle inside is carriage - but that wouldn't be obvious.
> I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.


I see what you're saying -- and it would make sense if it weren't perversely illogical. Your logic is fine, it's DVLA's that's awry if what I seem to remember is correct. I'm reasonably sure that I've seen something from DVLA that "van with windows" motorhomes are subject to the speed limits as any other motorhome of that weight. OTOH, registering a vehicle as a motor caravan means that it comes up as a motor caravan when plod ping it and carry out their checks before actually pulling it. This also allows due diligence checks when a speed camera pings the van before issuing a speed-related NIP. Neither are possible if the vehicle isn't registered with regard to its actual use.

Edited to add: regarding using a van for 'storage': I suspect whether a van is used for 'storage' depends on whether that item being stored is required for its use as a motorhome. So, for example, the storing of food, water, clothing, etc. required during a holiday probably wouldn't mean the van was being 'used for storage'. Similarly, I suspect keeping a bike or two on or in the vehicle to be used recreationally while on site wouldn't count...


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## 1 Cup (Dec 12, 2020)

So a van with windows 70mph
Myself had full ncd for work and they transfered it over to private sdp. Untill late 2017 as I dont own any vehicals and rode a bike to work. So expired. 
This van 2020 paid £400ish on  tipy tapy and when they called about modifications, they cancelled ncd as they have a 2 year expired so lost 15 years without a fault claim.
Cost after ajustments £490 . With avia.  
So what savings do ncd hold ??? For the over 50s


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## colinm (Dec 12, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> I see what you're saying -- and it would make sense if it weren't perversely illogical. Your logic is fine, it's DVLA's that's awry if what I seem to remember is correct. I'm reasonably sure that I've seen something from DVLA that "van with windows" motorhomes are subject to the speed limits as any other motorhome of that weight. OTOH, registering a vehicle as a motor caravan means that it comes up as a motor caravan when plod ping it and carry out their checks before actually pulling it. This also allows due diligence checks when a speed camera pings the van before issuing a speed-related NIP. Neither are possible if the vehicle isn't registered with regard to its actual use.
> 
> Edited to add: regarding using a van for 'storage': I suspect whether a van is used for 'storage' depends on whether that item being stored is required for its use as a motorhome. So, for example, the storing of food, water, clothing, etc. required during a holiday probably wouldn't mean the van was being 'used for storage'. Similarly, I suspect keeping a bike or two on or in the vehicle to be used recreationally while on site wouldn't count...



And lets not forget, when 'plod' or camera 'sees' a motor caravan doing 70 on a dual carriageway they must then somehow decided if that vehicle is under 3050kg unladen. Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.


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## SquirrellCook (Dec 12, 2020)

I apologise as I'm continuing the drift from the original post, but as a matter of interest.  Our "Betty" build is insured as a motorhome, but work in progress.  We can't take it on a public highway unless it's to a pre arranged MOT.  Even then we must inform them.


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## GeoffL (Dec 12, 2020)

colinmd said:


> [...] Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.


I hear that is not the case and that new, factory-built pop-tops (e.g. VW California) cannot be registered as "motor caravans". AIUI, VW have got around this by registering their campers as "MPVs".

Returning to where I'd seen the DVLA's claim re speed limits: it's on their web page giving guidance on the new rules (here). in that, they say:


			
				DVLA said:
			
		

> The body type does not affect the insurance category of the vehicle, or have any effect on speed limits or other legislative requirements. It is only used for establishing vehicle appearance and identification.
> It is important to remember that even if the vehicle’s body type is not changed to ‘motor caravan’, the vehicle can still be used for this purpose as long as the keeper is satisfied the converted vehicle meets the required internal features for motor caravans.


So this leaves both self-builders and purchasers of new PVCs in a quandary because (according to the DVLA) a vehicle that meets the internal requirements for a motor caravan is subject to the higher speed limits -- but AFAICT it hasn't been tested in court as to whether this is the case or whether DVLA lied when they said that the body type has no effect on speed limits etc. (unless I'm missing something?)


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## colinm (Dec 12, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Returning to where I'd seen the DVLA's claim re speed limits: it's on their web page giving guidance on the new rules (here). in that, they say:
> 
> So this leaves both self-builders and purchasers of new PVCs in a quandary because (according to the DVLA) a vehicle that meets the internal requirements for a motor caravan is subject to the higher speed limits -- but AFAICT it hasn't been tested in court as to whether this is the case or whether DVLA lied when they said that the body type has no effect on speed limits etc. (unless I'm missing something?)



This seems to indicate that reconisation of the vehicle for speed limits is a total red herring, we then go back to what I read some time back, the reasoning behind this is to cut down on stolen vehicles being cloned.


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

colinmd said:


> And lets not forget, when 'plod' or camera 'sees' a motor caravan doing 70 on a dual carriageway they must then somehow decided if that vehicle is under 3050kg unladen. Also AFAIK if it's a new vehicle and pop top it can be registered as motor caravan.


I suspect that it's probably the other way round - they'll be looking for commercial vehicle over 60 mph on duals - DVLA classification from number plate will determine fine or not.
I read that VW are not registering California's as motorcaravans but as non commercial and under 3050kg anyway they have higher limits.


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

Doesn't really matter what the reason was - they've seem to have made their minds up and are only recognising mainstream converters.
We seem to have established that on the mainland anyway insurance companies are prepared to provide cover for 'vans with windows' on very similar terms to motorhomes.
If we decide that we want to spend the extra money to travel at higher speeds then we need to buy a vehicle that allows them.
Unfortunately there a few people who started conversions before the rules began to be enforced more rigorously and our sympathy goes out to them if they wanted higher speeds.
However DVLA stance does seem to have been pretty clear for some while now and like the unmentionable subject it's time we accepted it.


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

wildebus said:


> as Trev says.
> Plus increased Speed Limits (change from Van Speeds of 50/60 for Single/Dual Carriageways to Car Speeds of 60/70)


I have a coachbuilt motorhome but as it's over 3.5T and technically an HGV (was registered at under when I bought it but was 3.4T empty!!) I'm restricted to lower limits which isn't a big deal really as any faster gobbled fuel.
I don't find 50 mph on singles a big problem as commonly that's the running speed of traffic. 
Not infrequently I find that I get behind a car doing less than 50 mph traffic builds up behind if I can't overtake but I always leave space for cars to get past and pull in front of me if they want to.
The main problem with busy single carriageway is not the performance of my van in terms of overtaking but the volume of oncoming traffic.


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## GeoffL (Dec 12, 2020)

Markd said:


> Doesn't really matter what the reason was - they've seem to have made their minds up and are only recognising mainstream converters.
> [...]
> However DVLA stance does seem to have been pretty clear for some while now and like the unmentionable subject it's time we accepted it.


AFAICT, they're treating mainstream converters the same as they are self-builders. The VW California is built that way at the factory -- so (unlike Autotrail, Swift, Burstnet, Adria, et al.) it's not even a professional builder conversion. The vehicle was designed and built from the outset as a camper but cannot be registered as a "motor caravan". PVCs from mainstream converters that are registered as "motor caravans" are, AFAICT, all based on high-top vans and meet all the other requirements. If you convert a high-top, van and meet all the requirements, AFAICT, DVLA will change the body type to "motor caravan"

Even though the DVLA seem consistent 'enforcing' this, what they say doesn't make sense. Consider the converse situation: e.g. a race van, that has the external appearance of a high-top PVC motorhome but the inside is mainly given to carrying motorbikes, tools, fuel, spares, etc. According to DVLA logic, this should be registered as a "motor caravan" as that is what it looks like to emergency services in traffic...


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

VW van isn't high top so no chance of Motorcaravan status now. No problem with insurance and speeds anyway so a bit of a red herring.

I'm not convinced about DVLA willingness to register 'private' conversions.
In the last 12 months I don't recall reading about anyone being successful - it could be of course that there's no mileage in that and we only hear from 'whingers'
If course there may be hundreds but Wildebus did FoI Enquiry and didn't reveal that.

I don't think that DVLA criteria suggest that 'race vans' to be classified as motorcaravans.
Mostly because it's the external appearance that the use to not allow m-c classification. Often we read that the level of penetration is a key factor.
So unless the back half of a race van us full of wi does on all 3 sides it doesn't stand a chance.
Do we know how commercial race van converters are getting on?

Looking for logic in a government decision isn't something I'd necessarily spend much time on


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## GeoffL (Dec 12, 2020)

The external appearance of many race vans is very like a PVC motorhome. For that, many might actually be motorhomes except for their intended primary purpose being for storage and conveyance of goods. Some race vans are very nice, with about the front third given over to habitation and sometimes with a drop-down bed over the garage/workshop. Below are a few photos of race vans, you might also want to look at https://www.mclarensportshomes.co.uk/vw-crafter-motocross-race-van-conversion/.html for one built from new as a race van. They are all high-top vans with windows behind the cab, access doors other than the cab doors, 'motorhome graphics' and awnings. They thus look like PVC motorhomes and meet all the DVLA 'external permanent features'.


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

Very impressive conversions - do we know how they are classified?


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## wildebus (Dec 12, 2020)

Markd said:


> Because motor-caravans have a higher speed limit it must be obvious to plod whether a vehicle is just a van or a motor-caravan when they see it 'speeding'


Really?    Interesting concept.... "Ah, he is doing 70. Must be a camper" 
(sorry,  just the way you wrote it, but I think I get your drift.

However ....


Markd said:


> I think that we've lost the battle to get self builds to be motor-caravans and will just have to live with the lower dual way speed limit in most cases.


not quite ...





						Converting a vehicle into a motor caravan (motor home)
					






					www.gov.uk
				



_"The body type does not affect the insurance category of the vehicle, or have any effect on speed limits or other legislative requirements. It is only used for establishing vehicle appearance and identification."_
and
_"It is important to remember that even if the vehicle’s body type is not changed to ‘motor caravan’, the vehicle can still be used for this purpose as long as the keeper is satisfied the converted vehicle meets the required internal features for motor caravans."_

As I have pointed out numerous times, the speed limits are defined by a combination of the type and use of the vehicle.
A motor caravan used for business purposes is limited in speed to a commercial vehicles speed.  This is why when I converted my VW T5 which started life as a "Diesel Car" with a body type of "MPV" I didn't get it reclassified to a "Motor Caravan" as it would have negatively impacted it.  The only potential benefit would have been insurance and I agreed with the broker that it did not need reclassification to have Campervan insurance.
Loads of people think speeds limits are defined by Classifications solely.  And also if the vehicle is an "N" or an "M" on the V5C - N or M is totally irrelevant when it comes to speed limits, but you can't explain that to some folk.

The benefit in terms of speed limits when it comes to Motor Caravan classification is more on the lines that if you are doing say 70 on a Dual Carriageway in your fully converted campervan, if you have a "Motor Caravan", the authorities would have to prove you should not have been.  If you are classified as say a "Van/Side Windows", you would have to show you WERE entitled to. 
You have the same rights either way, but the burden of proof is shifted  (and with the majority of Speed Enforcement being done by automated Camera, having a speed ticket for doing 70 on a Dual Carriageway in a "Motor Caravan" will be 1) unlikely and 2) a hell of lot easier to dismiss  (and THIS is why the chancers made pretend campers for reclassification purposes).
In a "Van/Side Windows" it is perfectly doable to cancel but a fair bit more hassle I would say.


Oh - another benefit of reclassification (and one that remains affected by the DVLA policy) is Toll Bridges/Roads and some Ferries.


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

Great explanation and I stand corrected to be honest having seen the 'complaint' so many times, I had no idea that use determined speed limit.
Nor, i expect, do most of those having done a proper conversion complain about not having higher limits when turned down for m-c status.
Perhaps it's more well known on 'builder forum?

We've read about Automatic toll charging being 'wrong' but changed on appeal and then charged appropriately in the future after company records updated.
I only get car charge on Tyne Tunnel despite being Private HGV - presumably because body type is M-C

Anyway thanks for the clarification.


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## wildebus (Dec 12, 2020)

FWIW, when I did my conversion of my 4.6t VW Van,  I deliberately took it to a weighbridge and got a ticket showing the weight (and this was when it was usable as a camper - had battery and solar panel as well as furniture).  Weight was 2.95t I think?  It was under the 3.05t ULW figure for the 70 to 60 speed cutoff.  So even though it is a 4600Kg GVW vehicle, I can still go at car speeds  (and it is a "Motor Caravan" on the V5C)
However .... like you said earlier about having to stick to 50MPH, I also don't have an issue limiting myself (as opposed to a legal limit) to lower speeds as that is a heavy vehicle to be driving at high speeds IMO (the only reason I got the weight ticket was so if I inadvertantly went over the 'van' limit I would not be over the legal speed).   
I would be perfectly ok if the law actually said that Motor Caravans of any weight were limited to commercial van speeds.


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## trevskoda (Dec 12, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> AFAICT, they're treating mainstream converters the same as they are self-builders. The VW California is built that way at the factory -- so (unlike Autotrail, Swift, Burstnet, Adria, et al.) it's not even a professional builder conversion. The vehicle was designed and built from the outset as a camper but cannot be registered as a "motor caravan". PVCs from mainstream converters that are registered as "motor caravans" are, AFAICT, all based on high-top vans and meet all the other requirements. If you convert a high-top, van and meet all the requirements, AFAICT, DVLA will change the body type to "motor caravan"
> 
> Even though the DVLA seem consistent 'enforcing' this, what they say doesn't make sense. Consider the converse situation: e.g. a race van, that has the external appearance of a high-top PVC motorhome but the inside is mainly given to carrying motorbikes, tools, fuel, spares, etc. According to DVLA logic, this should be registered as a "motor caravan" as that is what it looks like to emergency services in traffic...


No it cannot if carrying a m/cycle, it will either be a com or showmans van and reg as such, in a motorcaravan all you are allowed are things like deck chairs tables and things for or to do with camping.


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## GeoffL (Dec 12, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> No it cannot if carrying a m/cycle, it will either be a com or showmans van and reg as such, in a motorcaravan all you are allowed are things like deck chairs tables and things for or to do with camping.


That's the point I was making. It's clearly not a motor caravan even if it looks like one. So why should the DVLA (apparently) only apply the "what it looks like" test to motorhomes? Vehicles that are clearly motor caravans are being refused recognition because the DVLA claim that it's what the vehicle looks like to emergency services in traffic that counts -- but they only seems to apply this principle to motorhomes.

FWIW, re. race vans: these are probably 'living vans' for most purposes and so those over 3.5 tonnes MAM should be fitted with tachometers and subject to annual 'MOT' testing from one year old -- even though they look like motor caravans!


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## Markd (Dec 12, 2020)

Might also need limiters?

McLaren describe their race vans as motorhomes which is beginning to sound a bit naughty.
If they manage to get body type M-C on V5 then they've cracked the ANPR side of speed limit enforcement and only if stopped on the road and the coppers are wise to the regs and actually look in the back will lower limit be picked up.
So yes GeoffL it does look contradictory but as Wildebus says it's only using a motorhome as a living van that changes the limit.
As does hanging a motorcycle on the back of a 'real' motorhome which is immediately obvious if stopped. At which time it's more than likely rear axle overloading is happening!


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## wildebus (Dec 12, 2020)

You see this kind of discussion on forums for the "Horsey" set, where they have smart horseboxes >3.5t to take little Jemina to Gymkhanas.
If Jemina is going to compete, do they need a Tacho and operators licence?
If not just for travelling there, what if she wins? She has a 'reward' now and does that change the picture?
Or is Trigger (Jemina's pony) just a pet same as a cat or a dog? and needs a secure environment for traval same as a dog might have a cage to travel in? no difference except you have free manure for the garden.

OK....  Now change Gymkhana to Dog Show and you are taking your family (including the pet dog) to a local Dog Show in your PHGV Motor Caravan?  And you decide to enter on a whim the "dog that looks most like its owner" category and win a £25 Pets at Home voucher  
Got your reward there, so where is your Operators Licence before you drive home?  And your Tacho if over 100km from Home?


The whole subject is a overcomplicated nightmare and if you start overthinking it you will just end up blubing in a corner murmuring gibberish  (assuming not at that stage already of course  )


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## Markd (Dec 13, 2020)

I think the argument that as there is no guarantee of income the token winnings are incidental.

And the horsey set often have over 7.5T vehicles as well just to complicate matters!

It's a ****** nightmare!


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## RV2MAX (Dec 13, 2020)

Horse boxes over 3.5 are plated and HGV tested  , even if fitted with accommodation  for 2 legged users (living van)  also have speed limiters if under certain
age.


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## Drover (Dec 13, 2020)

Living vans/vehicles are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are classed as IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or subject to HGV plating and testing.
All are weight depending.
Showmans road tax is or was class10 and £165 for 12 months .
Should cover the horsey set.
I dont think they come into the pop top theory. 
All this fuss with the dvla has come about from people sticking a window in the side and a blow up mattress in the back of their own works van (most are self employed) when they discover the insurance /mot and tax would be cheaper...


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## wildebus (Dec 13, 2020)

chrisjones18 said:


> Living vans/vehicles are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are classed as IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or subject to HGV plating and testing.
> All are weight depending.
> Showmans road tax is or was class10 and £165 for 12 months .
> Should cover the horsey set.
> ...


Tax isn't changed. 
MOT isn't changed significantly unless converting an HGV - and the MOT class is not determined by the Vehicles V5C classification anyway.
Insurance usually is  (but only by getting insurance which is inappropriate and likely invalid for the use the vehicle is put to)


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## Spike (Dec 13, 2020)

Thanks for the help everyone. 
It's already a minibus - so no speed limit or insurance advantages.


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## wildebus (Dec 13, 2020)

Spike said:


> Thanks for the help everyone.
> It's already a minibus - so no speed limit or insurance advantages.


something I found with my VW Shuttle when I first insured at as originally supplied ...   Quite a few insurance companies using Confused.com would not quote it as they - incorrectly - classified it as a Minibus.  I added it to my Admiral multi-car policy, but they would not insure it as a 9-seater and I had to tell them one seat was removed so it was only an 8 seater - which was fine.
I don't know if something similar has happened with you?

FWIW, ref Minibus classification... a Minibus in the UK officially has between 9 and 16 passenger seats  (which is why so you see so many vans with no more than 16 passenger  seats).  Lots of insurance companies incorrectly interpret that regulation as a minibus having 9 seats in total (as opposed to the correct 10 seats = 1 driver + 9 passengers).   There is no point in arguing with them and I took the stance that if they can't get the basics right, what else have they mucked up in their policies?


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## SquirrellCook (Dec 13, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> FWIW, re. race vans: these are probably 'living vans' for most purposes and so those over 3.5 tonnes MAM should be fitted with tachometers and subject to annual 'MOT' testing from one year old -- even though they look like motor caravans!


I explored this a while back, and I'd rather have a ministry type test.  It's better than having MOT test station operators making the rules up as the go.
I have a coach that you can live in, in fact off grid for some time if careful with the water.  It also has a large wet room in the back.
I tried the get it tested at a DVSA inspection centre, at the time they were being inspected!  It was agreed that it couldn't be anything other than a motorhome and as such required a class 4 MOT.  Even to be a Goods vehicle it would need type approval.  So could never be a "N" class goods vehicle.  
So when your documents are changed to "motorhome" make sure it also changes to "M" class.  Passenger vehicle.
With a 7.5 tonnes HGV, if it's private you can apply for plating exemption and you used to also be able to apply for tachograph exemption. 

If your motorhome is "N" class you can carry your own "goods" in it.

Don't blame me if it doesn't work out in court, because they make up the rules as they go along too!


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## Markd (Dec 13, 2020)

chrisjones18 said:


> Showmans road tax is or was class10 and £165 for 12 months .



Yes motorhomes above 3.5T gross fall into class 10 - so if you have the C1 licence there's a good saving to be had.


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## wildebus (Dec 13, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> I explored this a while back, and I'd rather have a ministry type test.  It's better than having MOT test station operators making the rules up as the go.
> I have a coach that you can live in, in fact off grid for some time if careful with the water.  It also has a large wet room in the back.
> I tried the get it tested at a DVSA inspection centre, at the time they were being inspected!  It was agreed that it couldn't be anything other than a motorhome and as such required a class 4 MOT.  Even to be a Goods vehicle it would need type approval.  So could never be a "N" class goods vehicle.
> So when your documents are changed to "motorhome" make sure it also changes to "M" class.  Passenger vehicle.
> ...


They don't change the Taxation code on a reclassification.  Maybe they should, but they just don't!


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