# Emissions fraud



## invalid (Sep 23, 2015)

Are any of us surprised by VW, I wonder who out there isn’t fiddling the figures. We have known for years on the BIO sites that the figures didn’t add up, but you can bet somehow you and I will end up paying for it.:rolleyes2:


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## Haaamster (Sep 23, 2015)

invalid said:


> Are any of us surprised by VW, I wonder who out there isn’t fiddling the figures. We have known for years on the BIO sites that the figures didn’t add up, but you can bet somehow you and I will end up paying for it.:rolleyes2:



I think the whole green thing is an utter scam from start to finish. When I worked at Marconi they were told if they didn't recycle their allowance of various items they could buy other companies documentation to make up the difference. I believe the same system works for whole countries.


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## colinm (Sep 23, 2015)

AFAIK all manufacturers optimise their engine management systems to best meet the regs, this will never be 100% perfect but at least it gives some measure of control.
VW system had two operating modes, one for emissions another for normal road running.
Vehicle emissions have a direct affect on us at a local level.


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## RichardHelen262 (Sep 23, 2015)

Will they be increasing the vehicle road tax for vw as the lower emissions the lower the tax band


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## Obanboy666 (Sep 23, 2015)

No different to manufacturers mpg figures. These are often impossible for 'Joe Public' to achieve.


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## Steve121 (Sep 23, 2015)

invalid said:


> Are any of us surprised by VW, I wonder who out there isn’t fiddling the figures. We have known for years on the BIO sites that the figures didn’t add up, but you can bet somehow you and I will end up paying for it.:rolleyes2:



Not really surprised, but according to VW they are not the only car manufacturer using this system. You can be sure cars of all makes will be undergoing close scrutiny now. 
Don't forget the VW group comprises twelve brands from seven European countries: Volkswagen Passenger Cars, Audi, SEAT, ŠKODA, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ducati, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Scania and MAN.


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## st3v3 (Sep 23, 2015)

Ford used the later Sierra cosworth running gear in the early 90's in the escort, but added a speed sensor that wasn't used for the speedo. A guy I know who developed an aftermarket ECU found Ford's coding that leaned off the fuel at the right speed. 

So, nothing new but they are defrauding the government so could be in real trouble!


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## alcam (Sep 23, 2015)

Steve121 said:


> Don't forget the VW group comprises twelve brands from seven European countries: Volkswagen Passenger Cars, Audi, SEAT, ŠKODA, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ducati, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Scania and MAN.



I'll never remember all that!


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## GWAYGWAY (Sep 23, 2015)

The emission values that are required to pass the tests are manipulated by the makers so they meet the set requirements of which ever government is being dealt with. The flat spots to meet these make for a very unpleasant drive and they have to modify the production car to be a better drive or they would not sell any at all once the customers found out how bad they are.
I would go so far as to say the whole motor industry will be at it all, of them.  The test as required by the government are set up by civil servants and they become  the standard to which the vehicle MUST meet or not be sold. You would not want a vehicle of any type that was optimised to meet these standards. It is a jumping thorough hoops exercise and I think one of the US producers has complained as they are in a losing position with sales.
The poison from the exhaust is a scaremongering tactic and new vehicle are truly amazing with the performance fuel economy and emissions  they produce. My old Anglia in 1960s was 72mph and 30mpg just to compare and it probably sent all manner of stuff out the back with the unburnt fuel it wasted.   I suggest that there will be a huge witch hunt starting soon and we will all be sorry about it in the end.:rulez:


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## kenjones (Sep 23, 2015)

helen262 said:


> Will they be increasing the vehicle road tax for vw as the lower emissions the lower the tax band



From 2017 George Osborne is introducing a standard rate of road tax for all new cars with a first year payment based on emissions.
The speed this government works could mean that its a long time before we see much happening to present rates.
However if this scandal does lead to increases will VW be liable to pay the excess cost incurred by duped owners?


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## invalid (Sep 23, 2015)

You’ll properly have more chance of getting money back from that Nigerian Prince who has all his money tied up in shares till you send him money.


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## hextal (Sep 23, 2015)

Watched a documentary a while back about how the manufacturers were testing the mpg. Evidently the rules were very vague and much fell to self certification. 

The upshot being that, removal of seats, spare wheel, internal trim, wing mirrors and the taping of all joins was not strictly against the rules. It was fun watching some of the company representatives not saying that they had or hadn't done that, simply stating that they hadn't broken the rules.


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## hextal (Sep 23, 2015)

invalid said:


> You’ll properly have more chance of getting money back from that Nigerian Prince who has all his money tied up in shares till you send him money.



Oh, if you hear from him, tell him I sent his money. He's gone ever so quiet, I hope he's OK.


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## molly 2 (Sep 23, 2015)

Manufacturer s have spent a fortune on developing cleaner engines, I believe they have reached the stage  that engines are as clean as they can run ,and still function well ,any future improvements will be small  and at the cost of economy performance and reliability.


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## Steve121 (Sep 23, 2015)

molly 2 said:


> Manufacturer s have spent a fortune on developing cleaner engines, I believe they have reached the stage  that engines are as clean as they can run ,and still function well ,any future improvements will be small  and at the cost of economy performance and reliability.



Several years ago Southampton University developed a petrol engine which, if I remember correctly, used a twin opposing piston design with water injection. It was considerably cleaner running than any other engine at the time, due in part by the fact it used about 50% less fuel than a conventional internal combustion engine. 
However, less fuel used = less revenue for the governments, so the design was effectively quashed simply by adjusting the exhaust emission regulations.


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## invalid (Sep 23, 2015)

Oh no, you’re not saying that the petroleum companies and the car manufactures are in league with the government all trying to screw as much out of use as possible? We are shafted from cradle to grave, if only these people would put as much effort into saving the World as they put into thinking up new taxes.:lol-053::lol-053:


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## Haaamster (Sep 23, 2015)

VW CEO resigned.


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## Teutone (Sep 23, 2015)

I am surprised this has taken so long to come out. 10 years ago there where rumors about this but only for high powered sportscars. Might have worked so good that they thought hell why not and used it wide spread. I am sure they are not the only ones.

Same rubbish with the oxygen sensor and catalysator when that was introduced. As soon as you put your foot down, the oxygen sensor is disabled and the engine runs richer than Lambda 1. No engine can run on full chat with Lambda 1 without suffering damage.


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## Steve121 (Sep 23, 2015)

Haaamster said:


> VW CEO resigned.



Volkswagen chief executive Martin Winterkorn has resigned over the diesel emissions scandal.


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## trevskoda (Sep 23, 2015)

molly 2 said:


> Manufacturer s have spent a fortune on developing cleaner engines, I believe they have reached the stage  that engines are as clean as they can run ,and still function well ,any future improvements will be small  and at the cost of economy performance and reliability.



No there is more to do like insulation jackets around the engine for faster warm up & 2 plugs per cyl plus roller bearings on crank and not forgetting water injection to boost oxegen and faster expansion in a burning cylinder, ceramic oval pistons with 8 valves per cyl so they can run a lean mixture with out melting but this also will require sodium filled ex valves,the list goes on,yes i wasted my youth working on fast m/bikes.:blah:


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## n brown (Sep 23, 2015)

the authorities could employ my wife,she always knows when i'm lying about my emissions


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## Siimplyloco (Sep 23, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> No there is more to do like insulation jackets around the engine for faster warm up & 2 plugs per cyl plus roller bearings on crank and not forgetting water injection to boost oxegen and faster expansion in a burning cylinder, ceramic oval pistons with 8 valves per cyl so they can run a lean mixture with out melting but this also will require sodium filled ex valves,the list goes on,yes i wasted my youth working on fast m/bikes.:blah:



And all of those things have been tried before but found wanting in one way or another: complexity, cost, early engine wear, maintenance etc. etc...
John


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## sparrks (Sep 23, 2015)

Hence the rise of hybrids with energy recovery and the increasing use of stop/start for congested british roads


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## molly 2 (Sep 23, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> No there is more to do like insulation jackets around the engine for faster warm up & 2 plugs per cyl plus roller bearings on crank and not forgetting water injection to boost oxegen and faster expansion in a burning cylinder, ceramic oval pistons with 8 valves per cyl so they can run a lean mixture with out melting but this also will require sodium filled ex valves,the list goes on,yes i wasted my youth working on fast m/bikes.:blah:


. By the time they have sorted that lot out  well all be running hybrids and hydrogen cars .


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## Tezza33 (Sep 23, 2015)

I don't think the CEO has resigned, I think they have software that when you try to contact him it says he no longer works for the Company, when nobody wants him he carries on as normal


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## Teutone (Sep 24, 2015)

molly 2 said:


> Manufacturer s have spent a fortune on developing cleaner engines, I believe they have reached the stage  that engines are as clean as they can run ,and still function well ,any future improvements will be small  and at the cost of economy performance and reliability.



In VW's case is would have quite simple actually. Just fit AdBlue system (as they did on the Passat) and all would be ok. They just didn't want the extra cost etc etc and did the software trick to meet the emmission values. 
Everybody else needs AdBlue to pass and VW doesn't? So that makes people in the know suspicious. They want to know how they managed this.


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## ricc (Sep 24, 2015)

when alls done and dusted the punter has no idea what the actual figure means,   we can only assume that all the manufacturers are milking the system,    so comparison of the figures is still a valid exercise.
its all a media hyped storm in a teacup totally irrelivant to most of us


yes my car is a vw....(1.9 td)

got to say emmission numbers wernt even considered when i bought it.

potential reliability,comfort, economy, boot space ,legal towing limit were the prime issues  and it was on a local dealers forecourt.


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## Siimplyloco (Sep 24, 2015)

ricc said:


> SNIP
> its all a media hyped storm in a teacup totally irrelivant to most of us
> 
> 
> ...



Nice to see someone else has joined me in the real world!
John


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## Polar Bear (Sep 24, 2015)

My everyday car/dog carrier is a Seat [VW] Alhambra and I often get 50+ miles to the gallon and its 12 years old - my other car is a year old A5 [VW] that struggles to do 35 miles to the gallon. The computer on the Seat has 'valves' in it compared to the new A5 one and performs much better MPG wise. 

When I 'gas' tested both vehicles yesterday the A5 had no particulates showing at all? does this mean the computer on the A5 is in cahoots with my MOT authorised emissions testing computer? The Seat was not bad either. 

You will be telling me next that Governments lie to us about how well they will look after us once they are in power and that athletes take drugs???


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## Robmac (Sep 24, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> ...................You will be telling me next that Governments lie to us about how well they will look after us once they are in power and that athletes take drugs???



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s


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## eddyt (Sep 24, 2015)

i have a 1.6 tdi skoda octavia 2009 when it goes in for emmisions test it will only rev up to 2000 rev per min when stationary. 
the software keeps the revs down to protect engine. Hence it always passes the emissions test.


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## The Camper (Sep 24, 2015)

It couldn’t have happened in a worse country for VW, the lawyers are already lining up to ‘help’ the poor motorists who have been so hard done to by VW add to the fact that the USA government will want their not so insignificant cut of the bounty and I wouldn’t be surprised if VW don’t survive the money grab.


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## GWAYGWAY (Sep 24, 2015)

I would leave  them well alone they drive beautifully, are economical and do not smoke, However if the changes are made so that they MEET  the standards then they will drive like a dancing hippo with flat/dead spots all over the place at the required speeds that the standards require,
Leave alone and decline the changes that WILL be offered.  You probably would not like trying to drive at the steady speeds and trying to keep in the standards band. My Ford Transit had  flat spots to meet various standards in the differing market it was sold in. One universal requirement would be good but the Bureaucrats KNOW EXACTLY What is best and all want to apply their variation on a theme  at least the EEC has one , market wide.
You know it is for your own good. :rulez:


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## Teutone (Sep 24, 2015)

That's why all these "chip tuning" and remapping works so well.
I major part of this is to iron out the flat spots ( result of emmissions suitable mapping)  by letting the engine run with proper settings which in turn screws the emmissions up.

In UK diesel emmissions are not part of the MOT and don't get measured anyway.
With petrol cars you need to be a little bit more careful because the actually check what comes out of the end of the pipe. But even that isn't too difficult to manage. Apart from idle and raised idle you can almost do what you like.


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## n brown (Sep 24, 2015)

VW have updated their current adverts i see 
Volkswagen have updated their advertising | The Poke


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## Steve121 (Sep 24, 2015)

Teutone said:


> In UK diesel emmissions are not part of the MOT and don't get measured anyway.
> With petrol cars you need to be a little bit more careful because the actually check what comes out of the end of the pipe. But even that isn't too difficult to manage. Apart from idle and raised idle you can almost do what you like.



Are you sure?

*The Testers Manual*
7.4 Exhaust Emissions - Compression Ignition


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## Teutone (Sep 24, 2015)

Steve121 said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> *The Testers Manual*
> 7.4 Exhaust Emissions - Compression Ignition



It's only a smoke test. No emmissions are measured.

If you have a petrol car just look at the sheet they hand you with the MOT doc. It shows Co HC Lambda etc readings. Nothing on the Diesel sheet only smoke readings.


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## caledonia (Sep 24, 2015)

I have 2 VW T5,s and a VW fox. How will this affect me? I bought them for practical reasons not because of what comes out the exhaust. America the ******* nation at its best!


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## El Veterano (Sep 24, 2015)

caledonia said:


> I have 2 VW T5,s and a VW fox. How will this affect me? I bought them for practical reasons not because of what comes out the exhaust. America the ******* nation at its best!



Well it might well be that when the UK government body (whoever they might be) that checks the omissions, properly this time, as they are apparently now doing, that your road tax goes up.


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## Polar Bear (Sep 24, 2015)

As an aside to the government going to possibly increase the road fund licence for cars with falsified emissions has any one noticed they are putting up car insurance tax up from 6% to 9.5% ?


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## trevskoda (Sep 24, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> And all of those things have been tried before but found wanting in one way or another: complexity, cost, early engine wear, maintenance etc. etc...
> John



yes john but light aircraft engines and alfa cars use 2 plug heads ,the manxs norton used sodium ex valves which worked very well and not forgetting the honda 500 gp bike with ovel ceramic pistons.
whats it costing v dub now for telling porkys.


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## trevskoda (Sep 24, 2015)

sparrks said:


> Hence the rise of hybrids with energy recovery and the increasing use of stop/start for congested british roads



v dub had the stop start in the seventys but folk did not like it as the price of replacing starters and pulling the engine out to fit starter rings knocked it on the head.


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## trevskoda (Sep 24, 2015)

Teutone said:


> In VW's case is would have quite simple actually. Just fit AdBlue system (as they did on the Passat) and all would be ok. They just didn't want the extra cost etc etc and did the software trick to meet the emmission values.
> Everybody else needs AdBlue to pass and VW doesn't? So that makes people in the know suspicious. They want to know how they managed this.



adblue sound like sumit you put down the bog what the feck is it.


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## trevskoda (Sep 24, 2015)

eddyt said:


> i have a 1.6 tdi skoda octavia 2009 when it goes in for emmisions test it will only rev up to 2000 rev per min when stationary.
> the software keeps the revs down to protect engine. Hence it always passes the emissions test.



they dont test diesel cars ex in ni as a friend had his engine blow so he took them to court and won at there expence followed by other folk after the case so they just gave up on it.


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## st3v3 (Sep 24, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> adblue sound like sumit you put down the bog what the feck is it.



https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=adblue


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## Polar Bear (Sep 24, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> adblue sound like sumit you put down the bog what the feck is it.



Hi Trev,

Its a bigger rip off than falsifying computer readouts. its an additive to help some engines to give environmental friendly readings. it a b&ll ache to refill without a pump and main agents charge an '8 tune' [two fortunes] to fill. They don't tell you this when you buy them! maybe a claim there also?
A bit like putting lead into petrol to stop it pinking or fitting cats on diesels.


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## trevskoda (Sep 24, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=adblue



thank goodness i have very old cars as all this is now over my head,i gave up when the starting handle went out.


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## ricc (Sep 24, 2015)

our young un has just passed his test

wanted summit cheap and  reliable ,  paid 200 quid for a pug 305 1.9td which is actually older than he is.

funny thing was searching on meerkats for insurance the only thing any cheaper to insure was mums 1.9d berlingo.   none of the petrol heaps available on fleabay were any cheaper to insure,   

direct line have been on the telly a lot lately claiming theyre cheaper than the comparison sites......actually they were 3 times the one we went for.


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## Polar Bear (Sep 25, 2015)

Skoogal said:


> Adblue is in common use with big diesels, no ripoff by them. Just car makers that are ripping folk off.



All adblue does is change the chemical makeup of the fumes that come out of the exhaust so that the vehicle can pass an emissions test.
It does nothing at all to the engine to make it any better as its injected into the exhaust pipe. Can't see the difference between using that and a computer programme doing the same thing?
So as far as I can see it's only there to comply with the governments desire to try to show that they give a fig about the environment.

As another thought - when governments fine someone for polluting what do they spend on the money?


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## ricc (Sep 25, 2015)

so 
the gov, eu or whoever came up with a test for vehicle emmissions and rewards manufacturers that get good figures on test (by cutting excise duty for "clean(er)" cars)

so what did they expect the vehicle manufacturers to do?

anyone with half a brain would have expected engines to be designed to show good figures on test.... that means tweaking the engine management software that controls fuelling,   slight problem is that an engine optimised for test conditions aint exactly optimal for real world driving conditions so the computer geeks solved that.

what else did anyone expect.?


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## Tezza33 (Sep 25, 2015)




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## Teutone (Sep 25, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> All adblue does is change the chemical makeup of the fumes that come out of the exhaust so that the vehicle can pass an emissions test.
> It does nothing at all to the engine to make it any better as its injected into the exhaust pipe. Can't see the difference between using that and a computer programme doing the same thing?
> So as far as I can see it's only there to comply with the governments desire to try to show that they give a fig about the environment.
> 
> As another thought - when governments fine someone for polluting what do they spend on the money?



You are totally missing the point, sorry.
What VW has done is to cheat to satisfy the test figures and in everyday driving it's failing.
When adding AdBlue it will achieve the figures when driving on the road.

So it's not that the figures can't be achieved, VW just saved the money for the AdBlue shyte and cheated

But this is not the end of this. Other will be caught.


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## invalid (Sep 25, 2015)

This fraud will of course have an effect on the resale value of all VW’s, how are they going to redress that, because some will say they only purchased the VW as a green product and payed the extra for that compliance. This will and should have a devastating effect on all car companies, we all know that they have played fast and loose with numbers, and it will take many years for the purchasing public to have even a modicum of faith in anything they say.


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## sparrks (Sep 25, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> *All adblue does is change the chemical makeup of the fumes that come out of the exhaust so that the vehicle can pass an emissions test.
> It does nothing at all to the engine to make it any better as its injected into the exhaust pipe*. Can't see the difference between using that and a computer programme doing the same thing?
> So as far as I can see it's only there to comply with the governments desire to try to show that they give a fig about the environment.
> 
> As another thought - when governments fine someone for polluting what do they spend on the money?



Not a lot of difference to a catalytic converter then - does it actually make the fumes less toxic/harmfull?


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## Steve121 (Sep 27, 2015)

Teutone said:


> It's only a smoke test. No emmissions are measured.
> 
> If you have a petrol car just look at the sheet they hand you with the MOT doc. It shows Co HC Lambda etc readings. Nothing on the Diesel sheet only smoke readings.



I'm a bit confused now. What is exhaust smoke if not an exhaust emission?


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## Teutone (Sep 27, 2015)

Steve121 said:


> I'm a bit confused now. What is exhaust smoke if not an exhaust emission?



THey are not checking of what the smoke is made off.
Your diesel exhaust can be completely smoke free and nobody measures what actually comes out and harmful invisible gasses come out. Petrol engines are tested wigh a gas analyser and have to be under certain level of gas.

Diesel test is only a visual test just using a machine


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## Tezza33 (Sep 28, 2015)

Germany's Federal Motor Transport Authority, KBA, has lost patience with scandal-plagued Volkswagen and has given it a deadline.

By October 7, the regulator says, Volkswagen has to submit its plan for bringing its cars into line with European emissions regulation – and this time, no cheating.

That's going to be a tough ask for VW: while the software that cheated on emissions tests will be easily patched, it can only be done with a big hit to the performance of cars on the road.

source


Don't you feel sorry for the VW CEO though



> VW boss Martin Winterkorn his job, leaving him struggling with a €3.2 million severance payment and a €1 million annual pension.


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## Polar Bear (Sep 28, 2015)

Teutone said:


> You are totally missing the point, sorry.
> What VW has done is to cheat to satisfy the test figures and in everyday driving it's failing.
> When adding AdBlue it will achieve the figures when driving on the road.
> 
> ...





I do understand the difference. Fitting an Adblue system is a cheat!!! Many people tweak the OBC and  never fill the Adblue tank when it runs empty?

Adblue reduces emissions IE' oxides of nitrogen from the exhaust by injecting urea [Pi$$] into the exhaust system.  Oxides of nitrogen - nitric oxide, a vital component in human life,  is not seemed to be enough of a hazard  to be measured in emissions checks for MOTs. Its use is to change a dirty engine emissions  into emissions  that merely complies to a requirement.
I believe the requirements for diesel emission  cleanliness set by governments is just a political ploy in the never ending flim-flam that is currently used as a vote puller.
I still can't see why there is such a hoo-ha about this matter.  The emissions from these modern car engines are far cleaner than they have ever been - much cleaner then trains or buses or ferries or planes.
We are, after all,  hoodwinked  on a daily basis by the establishment so why are we upset when others do it when trying to conform to a rule only set keep us the masses quite?


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## Teutone (Sep 28, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> I do understand the difference. Fitting an Adblue system is a cheat!!! Many people tweak the OBC and  never fill the Adblue tank when it runs empty?
> 
> Adblue reduces emissions IE' oxides of nitrogen from the exhaust by injecting urea [Pi$$] into the exhaust system.  Oxides of nitrogen - nitric oxide, a vital component in human life,  is not seemed to be enough of a hazard  to be measured in emissions checks for MOTs. Its use is to change a dirty engine emissions  into emissions  that merely complies to a requirement.
> I believe the requirements for diesel emission  cleanliness set by governments is just a political ploy in the never ending flim-flam that is currently used as a vote puller.
> ...



I fully agree with you. But if we don't set the standards, the car industrie will never improve emmissions.
When I stand behind my 8 year old diesel on cold start up I can hardly smell anything, going back 20 years standing behind my Merc van I would have a coughing fit instantly.


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## invalid (Sep 28, 2015)

If I stand behind any of our diesels, all I feel is hungry for chips.:tongue::tongue::tongue:


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## Haaamster (Sep 28, 2015)

There are news reports that Merkel knew so I refuse to believe the CEO didn't.
German government 'knew VW was rigging emissions test' - Telegraph


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## invalid (Sep 28, 2015)

The truly sad thing is that highly paid people are employed to think up the rules, and then equally highly paid people try to find ways around the rules, and then bosses and politicians do what they do best, lie about everything and blame others, while Joe public empties out their wallets again. Nothing ever seem to change does it.:sad:


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## funniinnit (Sep 28, 2015)

*The usual bigger picture*

This is a typical American ploy to put pressure on Merkel if not remove her from power by popular vote.  All politicians in the Western world know and accept this goes on, it's part of their life and close relationship with the "governing" multi nationals.  
Germany has just announced closer military ties with Russia against the American will.  America's reason to exist is to keep Russia and Germany apart, it always has been.
A similar exercise put a stop to Japanese anti American movement a few years ago with the huge recall of Toyota cars because of an American found fault.  Audi has just announced the same problem and then no doubt will follow Skoda etc etc.  All part of the great geopolitical theatre show


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## Pilotewanderers (Sep 28, 2015)

OOOOH... a conspiracy theory, how exciting.

Yawns...

PW


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## Polar Bear (Sep 28, 2015)

Teutone said:


> I fully agree with you. But if we don't set the standards, the car industrie will never improve emmissions.
> When I stand behind my 8 year old diesel on cold start up I can hardly smell anything, going back 20 years standing behind my Merc van I would have a coughing fit instantly.



I have a 1952 Fordson major tractor that starts first piston up without heaters every time and neither smells or smokes!


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## ricc (Sep 29, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> I have a 1952 Fordson major tractor that starts first piston up without heaters every time and neither smells or smokes!






but it hasnt got a comfy seat, power steering or a heater:wave:


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## invalid (Sep 29, 2015)

ricc said:


> but it hasnt got a comfy seat, power steering or a heater:wave:



And let’s not forget the inadequate bathroom arrangements.:scared:


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