# All electric motorhomes.... Possible or not?



## TrickyDicky

The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles. 
As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover. 
Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines. 
Does anyone know?


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## mfw

Check out sussexcampervans they already have an electric camper van based on the nissan nv


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## colinm

There was a BEV motorhome announced, last year I think. IIRC had a range of 80miles, the justification of this was that the average MH journey was around 80 miles, this totally overlooks the actual usage patterns, which often consist of a long journey followed by several short journeys.
So unlike cars there is still no practical MH BEV which will suit the majority of people, I would note Scania produce a BEV HGV.


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## trevskoda

I think its cars at first but no one has said that as yet, as for a van, tests have been done and range will soon be 300+ with swappable battery packs for commercial vans.
Here is the big problem, you will not be allowed to take a diesel engine anywhere in built up places, plus the tax and insurance will price them out forcing electric only.


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## barryd

I suspect as Trev says the restrictions as to where you can go with a diesel all over Europe will make life awkward but electric motorhomes will never work for me.  When we tour Europe we practically spend most of the summer off grid.  Its a none starter.  Maybe our next van might well be our last one but it will be a diesel for sure.  Of course we tend to use the scooter for touring about on so not being able to go into towns or cities should not be a problem unless of course they start banning scooters also.  Cant see that happening anytime soon.


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## 1807truckman

From what I've heard with electric vans the claimed range is achievable in stop start traffic (slowing down recharges batteries) there have been lots of claims of higher mileages but no mention of the costs, there is also a load cost to electric vehicles with a reduced payload due to the weight of the batteries.


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## trevskoda

barryd said:


> I suspect as Trev says the restrictions as to where you can go with a diesel all over Europe will make life awkward but electric motorhomes will never work for me.  When we tour Europe we practically spend most of the summer off grid.  Its a none starter.  Maybe our next van might well be our last one but it will be a diesel for sure.  Of course we tend to use the scooter for touring about on so not being able to go into towns or cities should not be a problem unless of course they start banning scooters also.  Cant see that happening anytime soon.


They already have electric scooters and your old piston engine lump will be in a museum along with my old bikes I have hidden away.


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## Makzine

Just a thought crept into my brain reading here.  My thought is there will still be diesel available after whatever date they put to change, and my reasoning is agricultural vehicles.  Have heard of electric lorries etc, but not heard a thing about tractors?  Any thoughts on this?


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## Tookey

We have hungry, cold and skint famalies in this country and many scraping by from pay cheque to pay cheque and just kerping their bangers on the road. Forcing people to purchase electric cars by pushing up the price of diesel and road tax etc is political suicide. Any party in power will do it as gently as International pressure allows. Only commercial will feel the pressure in my opinion


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## Tookey

I suspect only one diesel/petrol vehicle per household is a more likely outcome which will effect our hobby


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## colinm

Makzine said:


> Just a thought crept into my brain reading here.  My thought is there will still be diesel available after whatever date they put to change, and my reasoning is agricultural vehicles.  Have heard of electric lorries etc, but not heard a thing about tractors?  Any thoughts on this?


There are already electric tractors, but only small ones at present, much of the UK is farmed by contractors with big heavy tractors running long hours at high power levels, none of the 'tricks' like regen braking will work for this type of usage, maybe we'll get a government grant to fit charging stations on every field.


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## trevskoda

colinmd said:


> There are already electric tractors, but only small ones at present, much of the UK is farmed by contractors with big heavy tractors running long hours at high power levels, none of the 'tricks' like regen braking will work for this type of usage, maybe we'll get a government grant to fit charging stations on every field.


Swap out batteries on trailers on the farm, so 2 hrs work, tea change battery and work to dinner time, change battery again, not rocket science, its going to happen faster than you think and someone is going to make a killing on the new tec.


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## molly 2

Electric vehicles  are coming weather we like it or not  ,I could manage with an electric  car  .but the cost of a  electric small  car is too much  for the .low miles I now drive £26  400 for a corsa  e  ,So what would be the cost of a mothome ? And what hidden costs will we be hit with a few years down the line  as motoring  is such a high goverment revenue,


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## trevskoda

Fact is there are to many of us on the road in the last 30 years and they are going to cut it down by pricing it out of our hands.


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## wildebus

trevskoda said:


> Swap out batteries on trailers on the farm, so 2 hrs work, tea change battery and work to dinner time, change battery again, not rocket science, its going to happen faster than you think and someone is going to make a killing on the new tec.


People don't realise how much environmental damage is done by making all these batteries.  Apart from the cost of these very large battery banks,  having a second swapout one will make it totally unviable if that was the approach
It's going to be delayed and delayed longer then you think.


Tallking of tractors, this might be of interest.  Watched a BBC Countryfile a whileback when they did a head-to-head on Tractors.
This might be the full thing, or it might be just the electric bit  (given the site, it will also be weighted opinions - bear that in mind when watching)








						Farmtrac Electric Tractor - BBC Countryfile - Fully Charged Show
					

Robert Llewellyn heads down to Bemborough Farm in Gloucestershire to try out the Farmtrac 25G electric tractor. The first of its kind in the country.




					fullycharged.show


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## Derekoak

Last year we met a German couple in a partly professionally, partly self converted fully electric camper. This is on the col d'Isoard in the french alps they drove from Germany, recharging at camp sites and service stations. It was most likely a Nissan van. Getting to the top of the col took twice the charge as the normal for those miles travelled, but they expected to recover some down the other side.
 It is possible now, but obviously not the same as some do it.


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## Nabsim

I wouldn’t worry too much, those still alive when we are forced to electric motorhomes probably won’t be able to afford the electric bill. I had an almost all electric cottage for 20 odd years and the bills were eye watering for a 2 up 2 down


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## colinm

The problem with the tractor robert showed off, in the real world of agriculture it's a toy, suitable for hobby farmers and gardeners. John Deere are working on tractors with up to 1mw output, even a super charger would struggle to charge that up overnight.


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## wildebus

Nabsim said:


> I wouldn’t worry too much, those still alive when we are forced to electric motorhomes probably won’t be able to afford the electric bill. I had an almost all electric cottage for 20 odd years and the bills were eye watering for a 2 up 2 down


I really think people think they will be able to use free charging points for ever more if they go electric.
Deluded or what!


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## colinm

If you are paying for the electric then a BEV costs about 1/3 per mile compared to an ICE, add in the lower servicing costs, and that's where you get back the initial outlay if you do the miles. I did the sums a few years back and it didn't work out for our usage, but things have moved on, not worked it out lately, but should make more sense now.


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## wildebus

colinmd said:


> The problem with the tractor robert showed off, in the real world of agriculture it's a toy, suitable for hobby farmers and gardeners. John Deere are working on tractors with up to 1mw output, even a super charger would struggle to charge that up overnight.


just use your 3 spare battery packs during the day


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## Tookey

Electric MH's would guarantee aires as our reliance on them would make them economically viable. 

Probably Tesco owned with a small shop


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## Tookey

Return of the horse and gypsy caravan!!


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## SquirrellCook

Second hand used electric coaches are not that expensive in Europe.  They look to be in better condition than the uk tarted up rubbish.  In a coach used have the room to increase the size of the battery pack.  Also cover it in solar panels.


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## trevskoda

wildebus said:


> People don't realise how much environmental damage is done by making all these batteries.  Apart from the cost of these very large battery banks,  having a second swapout one will make it totally unviable if that was the approach
> It's going to be delayed and delayed longer then you think.
> 
> 
> Tallking of tractors, this might be of interest.  Watched a BBC Countryfile a whileback when they did a head-to-head on Tractors.
> This might be the full thing, or it might be just the electric bit  (given the site, it will also be weighted opinions - bear that in mind when watching)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Farmtrac Electric Tractor - BBC Countryfile - Fully Charged Show
> 
> 
> Robert Llewellyn heads down to Bemborough Farm in Gloucestershire to try out the Farmtrac 25G electric tractor. The first of its kind in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fullycharged.show


We are still getting used to these new fangled things.


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## Asterix

A customer that i see regularly during the summer has a Citroën H van that he's converting to fully electric,no idea what mileage he's likely to get but I'm sure he'll  build it to suit his requirements.


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## barryd

trevskoda said:


> They already have electric scooters and your old piston engine lump will be in a museum along with my old bikes I have hidden away.



They will be around for a while yet.  I could buy a petrol scooter  or diesel motorhome in say 2028 and by the time they are both knackered Ill probably be ready to pack up anyway.

Having said that I would not be averse to an electric car or motorbike / scooter at home.  Someone posted a thread about an electric motorbike they tried a few months back and it was flipping awesome and of course automatic. 0-60 in about 3 seconds. Yes please. I gather the cars can be quite nippy also.  At home it would be fine. If we go out on the bike its seldom we do over 70 miles in a day and journeys in the care are seldom more than 50 miles.  The motorhome and scooter for touring though is a none starter as far as electric is concerned, otherwise it wouldnt be an issue.  My neighbour has a socket on the edge of his garage, ill just plug in there.


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## harrow

barryd said:


> Having said that I would not be averse to an electric car or motorbike / scooter at home.  Someone posted a thread about an electric motorbike they tried a few months back and it was flipping awesome and of course automatic. 0-60 in about 3 seconds. Yes please. I gather the cars can be quite nippy also.  At home it would be fine. If we go out on the bike its seldom we do over 70 miles in a day and journeys in the care are seldom more than 50 miles.  The motorhome and scooter for touring though is a none starter as far as electric is concerned, otherwise it wouldnt be an issue.  My neighbour has a socket on the edge of his garage, ill just plug in there.


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## molly 2

With new ev selling very well (we are told ) and new owners very pleased with them  people may soon  buy in preference  to ic  vehicles.


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## Martin P

We keep getting told electric is the way forward but in my experience it isnt. My electric cooker isnt a patch on my old gas one. Haven't had a decent roast potato out of it yet. The electric hob is just awful. A £12 camping cooker does a better job. As for electric heating I have turned all our completely dreadful storage heaters off at the fuse board. Our wood and coal fire does a much better job of heating the house. Electric vehicles are going to be a pain to live with and a definite step backwards


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## wildebus

molly 2 said:


> With new ev selling very well (we are told ) and new owners very pleased with them  people may soon  buy in preference  to ic  vehicles.


Out of Curiosity, I decided to check out the prices...
Taking the Corsa as an example, looked on ArnoldClark.com (no point in looking at the official prices as we all know people don't pay those, so let's use real prices).
Not really checking the specs, just comparing the engines now.....
The most expensive Petrol Corsas for sale are £16,500.  (most are around the £12,500 mark for nearly new ones with little mileage)
The cheapest Electric Corsas for sale are £25,000.   So a difference of £8,500.

Typical Annual service for a Corsa is say £310.  Road Tax is £140.  so fixed running costs are £450/annum.
for an eCorsa, still need servicing - let's say it is £150 a year. and Road Tax is £Zero - so £150/Annum.  eCorsa wins by £300 a year
Variable costs will be the same for everything but fuel.
Let's say charging the eCorsa is always free  (doubtful, but who knows.  Let's be optimistic).
If you do say 8,000 miles a year at an average of 40MPG and fuel is £5.50 a Gallon (reasonable enough.  Not going to put fuel up as no increasing electric charging either),  Petrol will cost £1,100 a year.  So with extra fixed costs, the Petrol Corsa is £1,400 a year.

So after around 7.5 years, the Electric Corsa (using all numbers above) will have become the cheaper option.  In my case, I probably do half that mileage.  If I were to go Electric, it would take over 12 years to recoop the extra if I got the eCorsa instead of the most expensive Petrol one (which I wouldn't anyway and far more likely to get one at £12,500 or less, which makes it more like 17 years to recoop the extra purchase cost by cheaper running).

So forget the financial benefits - all about the environment isn't it!

Or is it?
Environmental Cost of building the batteries.  Huge.
Environmental Cost of creating the electrical infrastructure for all the charging points.  Massive
Enviromental Cost of generating the electricity for all these 'zero emissions' vehicles.  Better then the ICEs, but still very significant

So how much in reality will going to Electric Cars "save the world" compared to being more thoughtful about cutting down on using current cars and other consumers?

Offer me an eCar in exchange for my current Petrol car?  Yes please.   Ask me to pay double the purchase cost?  Think I'll pass, thanks.


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## molly 2

Another consideration is profit on a new ic  car is is small  ,profit on an ev  may  be  considerably  higher for manufacturers  and dealers


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## molly 2

Martin P said:


> We keep getting told electric is the way forward but in my experience it isnt. My electric cooker isnt a patch on my old gas one. Haven't had a decent roast potato out of it yet. The electric hob is just awful. A £12 camping cooker does a better job. As for electric heating I have turned all our completely dreadful storage heaters off at the fuse board. Our wood and coal fire does a much better job of heating the house. Electric vehicles are going to be a pain to live with and a definite step backwards


Sorry Going of topic , new build houses from 2005 cant have  gas central heating , more drain  on the national  grid


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## colinm

Vauxhall 'pester' me to buy a Viva-e, why would I bother, it's over priced, I'd rather have a MG vs-e for around £22,000, a bigger and better car with a 7 year warrantee.


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## Robmac

If it came to being forced to buy an electric motorhome or not have one, then I would give it up and spend more time on the boat.

I can convert my boat to electricity  comparatively cheaply and I don't need to travel far for fantastic scenery.


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## trevskoda

barryd said:


> They will be around for a while yet.  I could buy a petrol scooter  or diesel motorhome in say 2028 and by the time they are both knackered Ill probably be ready to pack up anyway.
> 
> Having said that I would not be averse to an electric car or motorbike / scooter at home.  Someone posted a thread about an electric motorbike they tried a few months back and it was flipping awesome and of course automatic. 0-60 in about 3 seconds. Yes please. I gather the cars can be quite nippy also.  At home it would be fine. If we go out on the bike its seldom we do over 70 miles in a day and journeys in the care are seldom more than 50 miles.  The motorhome and scooter for touring though is a none starter as far as electric is concerned, otherwise it wouldnt be an issue.  My neighbour has a socket on the edge of his garage, ill just plug in there.


You will not be able to buy a diesel m/home if gove gets its way, and you will be barred from many places, even some suburbs will be out of bounds.


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## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> We keep getting told electric is the way forward but in my experience it isnt. My electric cooker isnt a patch on my old gas one. Haven't had a decent roast potato out of it yet. The electric hob is just awful. A £12 camping cooker does a better job. As for electric heating I have turned all our completely dreadful storage heaters off at the fuse board. Our wood and coal fire does a much better job of heating the house. Electric vehicles are going to be a pain to live with and a definite step backwards


You will get used to it, remember when you changed from shorts to long trousers.


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## SquirrellCook

I looked at going electric and I think I could make it work for me, but it would take a long time to see the benefit. 
lets say the car has a 300 mile range.
Round trip to work each day 20 miles. 
So cover works roof in solar panels to charge the car. 
When I get home, power the house from the car battery. 
The house is unsuitable for solar. 
Lots of money to set this up and living long enough.


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## trevskoda

molly 2 said:


> Sorry Going of topic , new build houses from 2005 cant have  gas central heating , more drain  on the national  grid


Oil.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> Oil.



Isn't that a bit like burning Diesel Trev?


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## trevskoda

The average miles in a year for most is 12.000 i treble that easy and more, electric would save me lots on fuel, but yes there is always a but, as wildbus stated it may be free and with grants for home panels and charger as now, just see what happens when we all have one, do folk think the gov is doing away with road tax and tax on fuel, not on your nelly, all that will have happened is the price of cars will be well up and less will be driving, or more money and vat to HP companies.


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## ricc

weve had our 03 berlingo multispace around 8 years now, paid 1300 for it then , just cost 120 for mot today, probably averages 50 miles a week....dont think ill be wanting to buy a leccy car anytime soon


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Isn't that a bit like burning Diesel Trev?


OIl heating is very slightly more eco than gas, but there are a few we tricks when installing, and you can clean/fix your boiler, not a hand are you to put on gas, and many home insurance stipulates it must be serviced with reg gas fitter, not for me thank you.


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## barryd

trevskoda said:


> You will not be able to buy a diesel m/home if gove gets its way, and you will be barred from many places, even some suburbs will be out of bounds.



Yes you will be able to buy one.  I think the current target is 2030. I would never buy a new one anyway so like I said in 2028 I could buy a five year old Diesel motorhome and keep it for maybe 10-20 years.   The Kontiki which is now ancient and looks like it runs on dog shit when you give it the beans and every time  you do a Polar Bear dies is already banned from most towns so I wont notice the difference 

I seldom go in towns in the van because we use the scooter, we generally rack up a 1000 miles a month on the bike. The van is like a caravan.  

Dont get me wrong, Im all for saving the environment and will go electric when we have to and they have both come up to scratch and also come down in price. All that will come.  The early adopters will pay through the nose but in time they will be faster, cheaper and better than IC I am sure.  I just dont think motorhomes will ever be suited to Electric though, not in most of our lifetimes.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> OIl heating is very slightly more eco than gas, but there are a few we tricks when installing, and you can clean/fix your boiler, not a hand are you to put on gas, and many home insurance stipulates it must be serviced with reg gas fitter, not for me thank you.



Our house already runs on oil Trev, well Oil and electricity.

I quite like it as a system, but surely they will be looking at getting rid of this as well?


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## trevskoda

barryd said:


> Yes you will be able to buy one.  I think the current target is 2030. I would never buy a new one anyway so like I said in 2028 I could buy a five year old Diesel motorhome and keep it for maybe 10-20 years.   The Kontiki which is now ancient and looks like it runs on dog shit when you give it the beans and every time  you do a Polar Bear dies is already banned from most towns so I wont notice the difference
> 
> I seldom go in towns in the van because we use the scooter, we generally rack up a 1000 miles a month on the bike. The van is like a caravan.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, Im all for saving the environment and will go electric when we have to and they have both come up to scratch and also come down in price. All that will come.  The early adopters will pay through the nose but in time they will be faster, cheaper and better than IC I am sure.  I just dont think motorhomes will ever be suited to Electric though, not in most of our lifetimes.


It was 2035 but coming down to or below 2025 at the next global meeting, do try and catch up on Borises newsflashes.


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## SquirrellCook

trevskoda said:


> OIl heating is very slightly more eco than gas, but there are a few we tricks when installing, and you can clean/fix your boiler, not a hand are you to put on gas, and many home insurance stipulates it must be serviced with reg gas fitter, not for me thank you.


I used to have oil for heating 
It was like playing the stock market trying to get a good price on oil. 
Then when you’ve filled your tank in the summer, some bugger steals it.


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## Robmac

barryd said:


> Yes you will be able to buy one.  I think the current target is 2030. I would never buy a new one anyway so like I said in 2028 I could buy a five year old Diesel motorhome and keep it for maybe 10-20 years.   The Kontiki which is now ancient and looks like it runs on dog shit when you give it the beans and every time  you do a Polar Bear dies is already banned from most towns so I wont notice the difference
> 
> I seldom go in towns in the van because we use the scooter, we generally rack up a 1000 miles a month on the bike. The van is like a caravan.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, Im all for saving the environment and will go electric when we have to and they have both come up to scratch and also come down in price. All that will come.  The early adopters will pay through the nose but in time they will be faster, cheaper and better than IC I am sure.  I just dont think motorhomes will ever be suited to Electric though, not in most of our lifetimes.



Makes a lot of sense Barry.

We very rarely visit towns  and never cities if we can avoid it in the van so that doesn't bother me. Personally I reckon by the time any of this happens to any great extent, it probably won't affect me.

We shall see.


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## Robmac

SquirrellCook said:


> I used to have oil for heating
> It was like playing the stock market trying to get a good price on oil.
> Then when you’ve filled your tank in the summer, some bugger steals it.



Yes, we've had ours stolen once.

We always get the best price though, just a matter of looking at prices online and ringing our supplier.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> It was 2035 but coming down to or below 2025 at the next global meeting, do try and catch up on Borises newsflashes.



I can't find anything as to Boris saying that Trev - do you have a link?

As far as I can see we are still looking at 2030.


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## trevskoda

SquirrellCook said:


> I used to have oil for heating
> It was like playing the stock market trying to get a good price on oil.
> Then when you’ve filled your tank in the summer, some bugger steals it.


Tanks in a shed,hot water and heating on stats and under full control, im not telling you which shed either, I have 3 tanks filled for this year.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> Tanks in a shed,hot water and heating on stats and under full control, im not telling you which shed either, I have 3 tanks filled for this year.



We also have put security measures in place, but I won't say what!


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## mark61

When I got this van, I did consider getting it LHD, shame I didn't.  The next one will definitely be LHD, I'll sell it in Russia, or move there   

In 2030 I'll see how far electric vans have gone and decide then. I won't be in the market for a motor when the phasing out of private vehicles begins, and I certainly ain't sharing a MH with you lot.


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> We also have put security measures in place, but I won't say what!


Some here got plastic tanks and the we skitters set them on fire, one house not far from me was burned down last winter and the burning fuel set the road on fire., steel tanks for me and ther shotblasted and covered in f/glass quarter way up and painted with chlorinated rubber, oldest tank well over 30 years now.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> Some here got plastic tanks and the we skitters set them on fire, one house not far from me was burned down last winter and the burning fuel set the road on fire., steel tanks for me and ther shotblasted and covered in f/glass quarter way up and painted with chlorinated rubber, oldest tank well over 30 years now.



Not allowed steel tanks here any more Trev.

Well, apart from the military!


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## Robmac

mark61 said:


> When I got this van, I did consider getting it LHD, shame I didn't.  The next one will definitely be LHD, I'll sell it in Russia, or move there
> 
> In 2030 I'll see how far electric vans have gone and decide then. I won't be in the market for a motor when the phasing out of private vehicles begins, and I certainly ain't sharing a MH with you lot.



If I really wanted to move abroad Mark, Russia would be on my shortlist, fantastic place.


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## colinm

Robmac said:


> We also have put security measures in place, but I won't say what!


Attack hens!


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## Robmac

colinmd said:


> Attack hens!



Funny you should say that Colin but the chicken coop is right next to the oil tank.


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Not allowed steel tanks here any more Trev.
> 
> Well, apart from the military!


You can retro fit, most new here are bunded double skin.


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> If I really wanted to move abroad Mark, Russia would be on my shortlist, fantastic place.


So its you doing the leaking of our top secrets, like girls wear long leg nickers here.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> You can retro fit, most new here are bunded double skin.



Seems I am wrong Trev, there are plenty of steel tanks for sale here.

I could have sworn when we replaced our old tank we were told it had to be plastic.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> So its you doing the leaking of our top secrets, like girls wear long leg nickers here.



Gotta earn a ruble here and there Trev.


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Seems I am wrong Trev, there are plenty of steel tanks for sale here.
> 
> I could have sworn when we replaced our old tank we were told it had to be plastic.


Yes they say that to comply with new regs.


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## landoboguy

I have a Tesla Model S, costs around £12.00 overnight to fill it up to say 300 miles, (real world drive miles is less more ilke 270) I can charge it up even less if I was on economy 7 tarrif.
The real saving comes if you are doing lots of miles, I dont do half as many as I used too, so that recoup has dwindled off, but if you do plenty miles and have good range, it can make good sense

Would I get rid of the Tesla and go back to ICE...Not a chance in hell, smoothest, easiest, nicest and certainly the fastest car Ive ever had, and I wont be going back to ICE cars againif I have a choice, plus tehey hold the money quite well.

As for lithium exhaustion, figues taken form the Critical Mineral Resources & Economic and Environmental Geology Prospects for Future Supply,
the world ony has around 60 years worth of Lithium at current ICE car levels (70m) if they were all of a sudden replaced with EV ( we know that cant happen)

There are approx 60-70 million ICE cars in the world and that will take a good long while to gradually change over to EVs, so the 60 years worth of Lithium left all of a sudden can quite easily turn to 90- 100 - 120 years (at current figures). Not taking into account any recycling it out of old lithium batteries which at the moment as its a newsih technology isnt really done. Also worth noting is lithium is in all manner of other things not just batteries.

Going a little off track but If we compare the recent rise in Lithium to the rise of Lead acid in the past,, its easier to see a similar set of figures with a similar trajectory/ lifespan of longevity of mineral supply. Yes we know of course ICE cars have only 1 lead acid battery where as EV cars are full of Lithium ones, but the comparison atm is lead acid cars on the road 60million, ev cars about 1 million. We are about as likely to run out of lead as much as we are Lithium if we treat lithium the same way as lead has been treated by way of mining/recycling and product use.

Estimated levels of Lithium on earth 18m tonnes (new reserves may be found, arctic etc)
Esitmated Amount of Lead 60 million tonnes
So then if you take into account of how much lead (weight) goes into a battery vs how much lithium (and cobalt etc) then you start to see the tonnage gap closing .
Also take into account how much quicker Lithium takes a charge and how many more cycles they can be used before end of life compared to lead

THEN if you take into account the upscaling of recycling of the lithium/cobalt etc, (which needs to happen and will happen from the miserly 3 percent that happpens now) get to more like lead recycle levels of around 60% (though yes almost 90% of a lead battery can be recovered.) then all of a sudden the gap shrinks quite quickly,especially if it is recycled as widely as lead is nowadays.

This all points to heading down the rare mineral recycling route and cost of supply can tumble and 200+ years of longevity could well be a reality.

Top and bottom of it, everyone is screaming not enough lithium, no lithium, and I guess if we had the technology back in the day we would have screamed the same about lead/copper/zinc..... but we just mined and mined. Then recycling kcicked in so the longevity of lead grows and for more and more. It will be the same with Lithium, *RECYCLE* is the answer.
Lets not even start about emissions,c02,coal( still the worlds largest energy resource), acids, titanium in exhausts etc

Oh and if Im wrong, come back and tell me in 150 years , But I guess by that time we will all be running our vehicles on water wont we ??


----------



## Deleted member 80299

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the way forward, there are commercial aircraft flying already and land vehicles have been on the market for sale since 1997 (Toyota) Once the infrastructure is in place which will happen, (Japan is converting the whole country right now) it will be as easy to fill up your vehicle and drive without any emissions except H2O, and travel the same range as internal combustion engines. No need for these environmentally unsound, dangerous Lithium Batteries!


----------



## Deleted member 80299

landoboguy said:


> I have a Tesla Model S, costs around £12.00 overnight to fill it up to say 300 miles, (real world drive miles is less more ilke 270) I can charge it up even less if I was on economy 7 tarrif.
> The real saving comes if you are doing lots of miles, I dont do half as many as I used too, so that recoup has dwindled off, but if you do plenty miles and have good range, it can make good sense
> 
> Would I get rid of the Tesla and go back to ICE...Not a chance in hell, smoothest, easiest, nicest and certainly the fastest car Ive ever had, and I wont be going back to ICE cars againif I have a choice, plus tehey hold the money quite well.
> 
> As for lithium exhaustion, figues taken form the Critical Mineral Resources & Economic and Environmental Geology Prospects for Future Supply,
> the world ony has around 60 years worth of Lithium at current ICE car levels (70m) if they were all of a sudden replaced with EV ( we know that cant happen)
> 
> There are approx 60-70 million ICE cars in the world and that will take a good long while to gradually change over to EVs, so the 60 years worth of Lithium left all of a sudden can quite easily turn to 90- 100 - 120 years (at current figures). Not taking into account any recycling it out of old lithium batteries which at the moment as its a newsih technology isnt really done. Also worth noting is lithium is in all manner of other things not just batteries.
> 
> Going a little off track but If we compare the recent rise in Lithium to the rise of Lead acid in the past,, its easier to see a similar set of figures with a similar trajectory/ lifespan of longevity of mineral supply. Yes we know of course ICE cars have only 1 lead acid battery where as EV cars are full of Lithium ones, but the comparison atm is lead acid cars on the road 60million, ev cars about 1 million. We are about as likely to run out of lead as much as we are Lithium if we treat lithium the same way as lead has been treated by way of mining/recycling and product use.
> 
> Estimated levels of Lithium on earth 18m tonnes (new reserves may be found, arctic etc)
> Esitmated Amount of Lead 60 million tonnes
> So then if you take into account of how much lead (weight) goes into a battery vs how much lithium (and cobalt etc) then you start to see the tonnage gap closing .
> Also take into account how much quicker Lithium takes a charge and how many more cycles they can be used before end of life compared to lead
> 
> THEN if you take into account the upscaling of recycling of the lithium/cobalt etc, (which needs to happen and will happen from the miserly 3 percent that happpens now) get to more like lead recycle levels of around 60% (though yes almost 90% of a lead battery can be recovered.) then all of a sudden the gap shrinks quite quickly,especially if it is recycled as widely as lead is nowadays.
> 
> This all points to heading down the rare mineral recycling route and cost of supply can tumble and 200+ years of longevity could well be a reality.
> 
> Top and bottom of it, everyone is screaming not enough lithium, no lithium, and I guess if we had the technology back in the day we would have screamed the same about lead/copper/zinc..... but we just mined and mined. Then recycling kcicked in so the longevity of lead grows and for more and more. It will be the same with Lithium, *RECYCLE* is the answer.
> Lets not even start about emissions,c02,coal( still the worlds largest energy resource), acids, titanium in exhausts etc
> 
> Oh and if Im wrong, come back and tell me in 150 years , But I guess by that time we will all be running our vehicles on water wont we ??


It is possible now to run all our vehicles on Hydrogen, no emissions, No Lithium with all of it's production/disposal poor power density problems, No charging of batteries by nuclear/gas fired power stations ( just passing the electricity production pollution down the line) There are already pollution/emission free cars, trucks, aircraft and ships available


----------



## trevskoda

Jon said:


> Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the way forward, there are commercial aircraft flying already and land vehicles have been on the market for sale since 1997 (Toyota) Once the infrastructure is in place which will happen, (Japan is converting the whole country right now) it will be as easy to fill up your vehicle and drive without any emissions except H2O, and travel the same range as internal combustion engines. No need for these environmentally unsound, dangerous Lithium Batteries!


Problem with that is it takes a very big amount of energy to strip out the hydrogen, so again back to energy costs at power stations.


----------



## Deleted member 80299

trevskoda said:


> Problem with that is it takes a very big amount of energy to strip out the hydrogen, so again back to energy costs at power stations.


Take a look at this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54364426 and this 
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ogen-fuel-cell-do-hydrogen-cars-have-a-future
Hydrogen is extracted commercially from Natural Gas but can also (and is) electolysised from seawater using excessive current production from windfarms. It is just having the will to set up hydrogen production/distribution which is holding this up


----------



## Tookey

Also think the expression "some hybrid vehicles" is also a bit suspicious


----------



## Deleted member 80299

Tookey said:


> Also think the expression "some hybrid vehicles" is also a bit suspicious


Why?


----------



## Tookey

Jon said:


> Why?


So if necessary and my prediction is the Gov will still permit the sales of 100,000s of vehicles that are still reliant on fossil fuels to be fit for purpose although they are hybrid. 

An example I would predict is HGV's using diesel the majority of their mileage on motorways and A roads and only switching to electric once in 30mph urban areas. Therefore his statement of 'some hybrid vehicles' still stands as correct. So I find his use of the expression 'some hybrid' suspicious as it leaves the number of fossil fuel reliant vehicles completely open


----------



## landoboguy

Jon said:


> It is possible now to run all our vehicles on Hydrogen, no emissions, No Lithium with all of it's production/disposal poor power density problems, No charging of batteries by nuclear/gas fired power stations ( just passing the electricity production pollution down the line) There are already pollution/emission free cars, trucks, aircraft and ships available


I agree this is possibly the next step, there are standalone plces in the US and other countries have set up their own "stills" to produce it for home/automotive use and for various reasons it isnt a fore runner in the car market, obvs ones taxes/danger and manufacturing equipment degradation.


----------



## colinm

Japan is going to Hydrogen because of their circumstances, they might well be happier with BEV's but they haven't got as much space for wind/solar power, so they need a transportable energy that they can import, hydrogen fits this.


----------



## barryd

Jon said:


> Take a look at this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54364426 and this
> https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ogen-fuel-cell-do-hydrogen-cars-have-a-future
> Hydrogen is extracted commercially from Natural Gas but can also (and is) electolysised from seawater using excessive current production from windfarms. It is just having the will to set up hydrogen production/distribution which is holding this up



Very interesting article the Autoexpress one.  Costs of the vehicle seem to be an issue but surely they will come down.

Why cant we have both? EV and Hydrogen.  Right now it seems impossible to foresee how electric will work for everyone. Just the massive amount of charge points required alone is unimaginable and what about drivers that are doing hundreds of miles per day?  Its going to be a long lunch hour while you sit and watch your car, van or lorry (surely they will always be diesel)  fill up for several hours.


----------



## trevskoda

barryd said:


> Very interesting article the Autoexpress one.  Costs of the vehicle seem to be an issue but surely they will come down.
> 
> Why cant we have both? EV and Hydrogen.  Right now it seems impossible to foresee how electric will work for everyone. Just the massive amount of charge points required alone is unimaginable and what about drivers that are doing hundreds of miles per day?  Its going to be a long lunch hour while you sit and watch your car, van or lorry (surely they will always be diesel)  fill up for several hours.


Diesel will be phased out but not within the time scale, hybrid electric as others have said,  as others have pointed out the word some in the clause will be the get out.
So petrol/electric will still be sold, me dont see the point as im never in a city to use electric.


----------



## mark61

Cobalt is probably a bigger issue than Lithium as far as batteries are concerned. 

There are Cobalt free Lithium batteries, but at the moment,  they don't hold enough power and have a short life span.


----------



## ricc

report in daily wail this morning on what boris is expected to announce , confirmed 2030,  also mentioned 40 billion as the current road tax and fuel tax take,   and also specifically referred to sale of cars....will leasing be a loophole


----------



## colinm

ricc said:


> and also specifically referred to sale of cars....will leasing be a loophole


I doubt any leasehold company will be allowed to buy them, and if they do the law will be change to suit.


----------



## trevskoda

Anyone for my old Scalextric cars.  
Mind you electric cars are not new, yanks had them at beginning of last century for the girls as they could not use the hand crank.


----------



## barryd

ricc said:


> report in daily wail this morning on what boris is expected to announce , confirmed 2030,  also mentioned 40 billion as the current road tax and fuel tax take,   and also specifically referred to sale of cars....will leasing be a loophole



How are they going to make up for the massive amount of tax on petrol and diesel that will be lost?  I heard talk the other day about toll charges being one possibility.  Or pay per mile.


----------



## Sixwheels

Makzine said:


> Just a thought crept into my brain reading here.  My thought is there will still be diesel available after whatever date they put to change, and my reasoning is agricultural vehicles.  Have heard of electric lorries etc, but not heard a thing about tractors?  Any thoughts on this?


Electric tractors is I understand a thing. And actaully makes lots of sense. A farm could generate its own solar and the traditional concern for weight doesn't apply for tractors


----------



## Sixwheels

people will develop electric conversions for any vehicle and a useable electric camper is entirely possible. It depends on what people are willing to pay to initially still be able to take their vehicles into cities and eventually at all. 

What do peopel feel they would pay to convert the vehivle they currently have - would folk pay £20k for example ?


----------



## Robmac

Sixwheels said:


> people will develop electric conversions for any vehicle and a useable electric camper is entirely possible. It depends on what people are willing to pay to initially still be able to take their vehicles into cities and eventually at all.
> 
> What do peopel feel they would pay to convert the vehivle they currently have - would folk pay £20k for example ?



That would be way beyond many people and make driving a privilege for the better off if that was a minimum.

The way of the world I suppose.


----------



## Tookey

Sixwheels said:


> people will develop electric conversions for any vehicle and a useable electric camper is entirely possible. It depends on what people are willing to pay to initially still be able to take their vehicles into cities and eventually at all.
> 
> What do peopel feel they would pay to convert the vehivle they currently have - would folk pay £20k for example ?


Took me 3 years to save for my 10K MH, would I spend 20K to convert it   

.....er, no


----------



## RV2MAX

Heres a self conversion possible now 300km range   not cheap tho !  


			https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=294165521&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&fuels=ELECTRICITY&isSearchRequest=true&pageNumber=1&scopeId=B&usage=USED&searchId=937ea558-3f28-747f-1e72-cf155deea300


----------



## Tookey

Will van/MH battery banks compared to combustion engines reduce payloads ?


----------



## colinm

RV2MAX said:


> Heres a self conversion possible now 300km range   not cheap tho !
> 
> 
> https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=294165521&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&fuels=ELECTRICITY&isSearchRequest=true&pageNumber=1&scopeId=B&usage=USED&searchId=937ea558-3f28-747f-1e72-cf155deea300


There is no way the figures for that van add up, it has a battery pack which even in a small car would only get that mileage.


----------



## colinm

Sixwheels said:


> people will develop electric conversions for any vehicle and a useable electric camper is entirely possible. It depends on what people are willing to pay to initially still be able to take their vehicles into cities and eventually at all.
> 
> What do peopel feel they would pay to convert the vehivle they currently have - would folk pay £20k for example ?







__





						Welcome to Electric Classic Cars
					

At Electric Classic Cars we can source and build an electric classic to your specifications, or supply parts you'd need to convert your own car to electric.




					www.electricclassiccars.co.uk


----------



## Snapster

barryd said:


> I suspect as Trev says the restrictions as to where you can go with a diesel all over Europe will make life awkward but electric motorhomes will never work for me.  When we tour Europe we practically spend most of the summer off grid.  Its a none starter.  Maybe our next van might well be our last one but it will be a diesel for sure.  Of course we tend to use the scooter for touring about on so not being able to go into towns or cities should not be a problem unless of course they start banning scooters also.  Cant see that happening anytime soon.


Not sure about the rest of Europe, but currently in France, the Government are aiming to ban sales of new fossil fueled cars by 2040.
At the moment, the government is subsidising the public around €6-7000 towards the purchase of a new EV car up to €45000 and in some cases if you decommission an old car, you could get another €3000.
€12000 off a new car isn’t bad and should be much cheaper than buying a new petrol/diesel car.


----------



## MOJO

On radio a presenter explained the more expensive EV is not a issue for 70% of purchasers. This is because they sign up for a contract that means they don't buy the car and trade in every 3 or 4 years and continue payments. He gave example of a model ( I can't remember) that petrol or EV are the same payments.


----------



## harrow

Royal Mail were testing electric commercial vehicles 45 years ago, they were all based on diesels converted to electric motors.


----------



## Martin P

Luckily I will be gone before I am forced into an electric vehicle. Going out and fitting a job is stressful enough without having to worry whether my van has enough charge to get home again


----------



## Martin P

Why pay to make it worse ?


Sixwheels said:


> people will develop electric conversions for any vehicle and a useable electric camper is entirely possible. It depends on what people are willing to pay to initially still be able to take their vehicles into cities and eventually at all.
> 
> What do peopel feel they would pay to convert the vehivle they currently have - would folk pay £20k for example ?


----------



## colinm

Maybe at the moment for MH's it's not viable, but some vehicles are just so much better converted to BEV.


----------



## Blue yonder

My mate has just bought a Vivaro-E for work. Its got a 200 mile range and a 700kg payload, so by the time you stack it with furnishings and possibly a pop-up roof, I don't think it would be worth converting for a camper. (they don't do high tops, presumably to keep drag down and range up).
A big bonus for campers would be if we were able to charge E vans overnight whilst camping but it seems to me that on-pitch EHU already struggle with kettle, fridge & TV without folks trying to charge their EVs as well.


----------



## Deleted member 80299

Electric charging points are the biggest problem to EV's, I live in a Medieval town and can't even park outside my House, so where do I and my neighbours charge our vehicles?, and there are a lot of places in the UK like that!


----------



## Martin P

How can a Ferrari possibly be better without the glorious sound of its engine. Like removing its soul


----------



## colinm

Martin P said:


> How can a Ferrari possibly be better without the glorious sound of its engine. Like removing its soul


Having spent many hours working on a 246 and 400, I'd happily rip out the ICE and replace it with something which was much more reliable.


----------



## Martin P

colinmd said:


> Having spent many hours working on a 246 and 400, I'd happily rip out the ICE and replace it with something which was much more reliable.


Each to their own


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> How can a Ferrari possibly be better without the glorious sound of its engine. Like removing its soul


Electric is faster, you can make the sounds yourself.   or play a tape.


----------



## Tookey

Do you think we will see a decline in the popularity of motorsports, especially F1?


----------



## mfw

Or as a self build


----------



## colinm

Tookey said:


> Do you think we will see a decline in the popularity of motorsports, especially F1?


There is already FormulaE which has several ex F1 drivers, is it just a matter of time before F1 goes electric?


----------



## trevskoda

Short haul electric aircraft are in the pipeline, belfast to Glas/eden


----------



## ricc

trevskoda said:


> Short haul electric aircraft are in the pipeline, belfast to Glas/eden


wind powered boats might be more practical


----------



## Makzine

ricc said:


> wind powered boats might be more practical


Now there's a thought, I wonder if I could patent the idea


----------



## colinm

ricc said:


> wind powered boats might be more practical


This has got to be the height of irony, a wind power oil tanker. 








						Spinning sail technology is poised to bring back wind-powered ships
					

Engineers are hoping to iron out a century-old technology that could reduce shipping emissions.




					theconversation.com


----------



## Sixwheels

Currenly conversions are expensive Personally feel, a 10k MH doesn't really warrant 20k (and tbf it would be more than that) conversion but I was interested to see what others felt. Maybe if you live in  or want to be able to visit cities and your van is 50k rather than 10k..

There's electric vans from in the pipeline from manufacturers, Ford have an all electric transit soon. They will make nice bases for MH in the years ahead I think.


----------



## trevskoda

Sixwheels said:


> Currenly conversions are expensive Personally feel, a 10k MH doesn't really warrant 20k (and tbf it would be more than that) conversion but I was interested to see what others felt. Maybe if you live in  or want to be able to visit cities and your van is 50k rather than 10k..
> 
> There's electric vans from in the pipeline from manufacturers, Ford have an all electric transit soon. They will make nice bases for MH in the years ahead I think.


Electric tranies are and have been on the market for a we while or so i have read.
Think soon all city buses will be electric mind you.


----------



## Sixwheels

There's been some conversions, eg Smith Edison Transit . And Ford have a hybrid, but I don't think Ford have produced a pure electric themselves.








						Ford E-Transit Review 2022
					

Read the definitive Ford E-Transit 2022 review from the expert What Car? team. Check specs, prices, performance and compare with similar cars.




					www.whatcar.com
				




Electric city buses make lots of sense - known predictable useage pattern and overnight base for recharge. Whole cities in China have electric fleets from what I've read. I do love ICE but for lots of things electric is already the apropriate choice


----------



## Admin

The West Midlands Ambulance Service is now starting to use Electric Fiat Ducato Ambulances.


----------



## wildebus

Philip Tomlinson said:


> The West Midlands Ambulance Service is now starting to use Electric Fiat Ducato Ambulances.


Could that be a bit of a problem on a busy shift night?  no opportunity to plug in to recharge between shouts?  or is this more for things like non-emergency patient transfer type roles?


----------



## Admin

wildebus said:


> Could that be a bit of a problem on a busy shift night?  no opportunity to plug in to recharge between shouts?  or is this more for things like non-emergency patient transfer type roles?


No, they are frontline fast response vehicles in urban areas. They can use fast chargers. I guess what will happen eventually is they will have charge points outside A&E where they can plug in whilst booking in patients.


----------



## trevskoda

Philip Tomlinson said:


> The West Midlands Ambulance Service is now starting to use Electric Fiat Ducato Ambulances.


Shocking.


----------



## trevskoda

Philip Tomlinson said:


> No, they are frontline fast response vehicles in urban areas. They can use fast chargers. I guess what will happen eventually is they will have charge points outside A&E where they can plug in whilst booking in patients.


It takes a good time to deep clean an ambulance after each shout, more than time to recharge batteries to 80% or top up.


----------



## Admin

trevskoda said:


> Shocking.


Here we go again...

When I first heard the shocking news the sparks started arcing in the cells of my brain. I did not think I would get so charged up.


----------



## trevskoda

All joking aside it looks that it will happen within the time limit, or so they hope, im thinking it will take longer just like they said we would all have broad band wifi, yea right.


----------



## Admin

trevskoda said:


> All joking aside it looks that it will happen within the time limit, or so they hope, im thinking it will take longer just like they said we would all have broad band wifi, yea right.



Check out this speed on my MacBook with WiFi 6 at home:


----------



## Owlhouse

trevskoda said:


> I think its cars at first but no one has said that as yet, as for a van, tests have been done and range will soon be 300+ with swappable battery packs for commercial vans.
> Here is the big problem, you will not be allowed to take a diesel engine anywhere in built up places, plus the tax and insurance will price them out forcing electric only.


Think about it... if you swap your battery, fine, it may only take a few minutes BUT to have the amount of batteries ready for swapping for all the bev’s using the fuel station would require a huge amount of batteries waiting, fully charged and the swapped batteries on charge. How much power would it require to charge all the batteries the need it - probably a small power station. 
I don’t think the logistics of bev’s are truly being thought about.


----------



## jagmanx

Not an EV but why not a hybrid.
Thus 4WD possible/best.
Efficient use of a fossil fuel in running what is in fact an efficient generator on wheels !
Some weight saving on engine/clutch/gearbox  to offset the battery weight and re-generation when braking..
A solar roof as well ! (so only drive uphull when it is sunny !)


----------



## colinm

For battery swaps China have already doing it.
Power Shift: battery-swapping our way across China | Top Gear 

As for Ambulances, looking at the daily mileages even for the east which covers more widely spread population, there should be no problems for most of them, esp. if you know the amount of time they spend parked up at A&E waiting to off load. where it will be a problem is the privately owned ambulances which drive down from west midlands to hertfordshire every day, but then you might ask the question as to why the hell they do that.


----------



## davef

I suspect the banning of petrol and diesel engines is to price many people off the road. It certainly isn't to save the planet - the mining of the rare earths and lithium will be far more damaging. If you haven't already seen this its a must watch if you think its all about the environment -


----------



## jagmanx

Yes the cure is worse than the illness....Dicuss  !


----------



## trevskoda

Philip Tomlinson said:


> Check out this speed on my MacBook with WiFi 6 at home:
> 
> View attachment 89295


We will get there some day.


----------



## trevskoda

When cold fusion safe nuclear power ever becomes available then a small power unit the size of a tea flask could power your car house etc for a lifetime.


----------



## Bouydog

I was in Millbrook proving grounds this week for work, must have seen 30+ electric MAN vans lined up presumably being tested.


----------



## PopesOnTour

Tookey said:


> Will van/MH battery banks compared to combustion engines reduce payloads ?


In a word, No. It is a myth that electric vehicles are heavier because of the batteries. Have a look at electric production cars and compare them to the ICE equivalent. Once you remove the engine, gearbox, fuel system, sensors, controls etc. the electric vehicles are virtually the same weight. The whole mechanical system is greatly simplified.

Add to this the progress in batteries, the new Tesla battery has up to 54% greater range for the same weight, tabless design means they don't generate very much heat, so the thermal management system has been removed and they can now be incorporated as a structural part of the car. The model 3 with the new batteries has over 300 fewer components.


----------



## mark61

PopesOnTour said:


> In a word, No. It is a myth that electric vehicles are heavier because of the batteries. Have a look at electric production cars and compare them to the ICE equivalent. Once you remove the engine, gearbox, fuel system, sensors, controls etc. the electric vehicles are virtually the same weight. The whole mechanical system is greatly simplified.
> 
> Add to this the progress in batteries, the new Tesla battery has up to 54% greater range for the same weight, tabless design means they don't generate very much heat, so the thermal management system has been removed and they can now be incorporated as a structural part of the car. The model 3 with the new batteries has over 300 fewer components.


It may be a myth that electric vehicles are heavier because of the batteries, but they are heavier, by a good few hundred KG, depending on vehicle.  If my math is correct.
All weights and specs are on manufactures websites.


----------



## jagmanx

If you have a horse-drawn cart or the like...
Do the manufactures include the weight of the power unit (horse or donkeys) ?


----------



## colinm

jagmanx said:


> Yes the cure is worse than the illness....Dicuss  !


Torry Canyon, Exon Valdes, New Horizons, and countless others, then we get to the environmental cost of oil extraction.


----------



## jagmanx

Cherbobyl !! It will happen again !!!!
Other nuclear "ills"
Just offering the view point that Lithium has issues
Some say that windfarms cause headaches to those nearby
There are probably minor issues with Solar panels. In particular huge tracts of farmland are being lost !
burning wood to heat houses
Coal mines caused devastation Miners dead and Aberfan
NO EASY ANSWERS and too many questions


----------



## PopesOnTour

mark61 said:


> It may be a myth that electric vehicles are heavier because of the batteries, but they are heavier, by a good few hundred KG, depending on vehicle.  If my math is correct.
> All weights and specs are on manufactures websites.



Kia Niro           ICE 1930kg + fuel          EV 2080kg 
Hyundai Ionic ICE 1469kg + fuel          EV 1527kg
VW Golf          ICE 1624kg + fuel          EV 1540kg (but lower range)


----------



## Makzine

You can graze sheep under the solar panels so that the land is not lost totally.


----------



## Robmac

Makzine said:


> You can graze sheep under the solar panels so that the land is not lost totally.



Yes, there is a lot of moss on my van roof!


----------



## Martin P

Makzine said:


> You can graze sheep under the solar panels so that the land is not lost totally.


I mentioned that to my sheep farming friend but he pointed out that grass does not grow under solar panels because it doesn't get any( or very little) rain


----------



## Makzine

Martin P said:


> I mentioned that to my sheep farming friend but he pointed out that grass does not grow under solar panels because it doesn't get any( or very little) rain


Maybe but there is plenty between the panels.


----------



## Martin P

He thought on balance it wouldn't be worthwhile


----------



## colinm

A quick google of 'sheep grazing under solar' will get you plenty of images.


----------



## cold

TrickyDicky said:


> The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles.
> As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover.
> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


----------



## colinm

cold said:


> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


At the moment it is only cars and light commercials, HGV's haven't as yet had any cutoff date.



> We will reduce emissions from heavy goods vehicles (HGVs) and road freight by:
> 15. Introducing a new voluntary industry-supported commitment to reduce HGV greenhouse gas emissions by 15% by 2025, from 2015 levels.
> 16. Launching a joint research project with Highways England to identify and assess zero emission technologies suitable for HGV traffic on the UK road network.
> 17. Working with industry to develop an ultra low emission standard for trucks.
> 18. Undertaking further emissions testing of the latest natural gas HGVs to gather evidence that will inform decisions on future government policy and support for natural gas as a potential near-term, lower emission fuel for HGVs.


----------



## mark61

PopesOnTour said:


> Kia Niro           ICE 1930kg + fuel          EV 2080kg
> Hyundai Ionic ICE 1469kg + fuel          EV 1527kg
> VW Golf          ICE 1624kg + fuel          EV 1540kg (but lower range)



Keeping in context with the question, which was



Tookey said:


> Will van/MH battery banks compared to combustion engines reduce payloads ?



How about some figures for vans?

For example, the electric Renault master has a payload of around 430 KG less than the diesel model of same GVW.

The electric Sprinter loses out on over 500 KG payload over similar diesel model.

The additional weight makes converting a 3500 GVW van a bit tricky.

As far as I am aware, the extension to 4250 GVW for B & B1 licenses on electric & plug in hybrids is only for commercials while working.


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> I mentioned that to my sheep farming friend but he pointed out that grass does not grow under solar panels because it doesn't get any( or very little) rain


Does here, sheep are floating round like ping-pong balls.


----------



## trevskoda

mark61 said:


> Keeping in context with the question, which was
> 
> 
> 
> How about some figures for vans?
> 
> For example, the electric Renault master has a payload of around 430 KG less than the diesel model of same GVW.
> 
> The electric Sprinter loses out on over 500 KG payload over similar diesel model.
> 
> The additional weight makes converting a 3500 GVW van a bit tricky.
> 
> As far as I am aware, the extension to 4250 GVW for B & B1 licenses on electric & plug in hybrids is only for commercials while working.


Things will change as time goes on and weights may be altered.


----------



## Wully

I looked to pre order a new electric van it was on the 5ton mark but didn't need a tachograph and didn't require an operator’s licence all a bonus for a small business but range was a big let down they quoted 150 miles but in the real word about 75 to 80 miles and cost nearly 75k. So I opted for a new crafter crew cab tipper diesel at about half cost of an electric van. It’s not quite there for electric vans the the range is the biggest let down but it would take a lifetime to pay back the extra initial outlay for small businesses.


----------



## trevskoda

Yes vans would require a 300mile range with a half hour top up to 50% before it makes any sence, and a price drop.


----------



## bjh

Electric is already here, shocking though that may be (sorry couldn't resist it). So we all need to get used to it and see how to make the best of it. The electricity required can be from batteries or fuel cells. Hydrogen has been mentioned and could be a way forward.  Bit of a waste of time for ICE's though as an electric motor is 3 to 4 times more efficient that an ICE.  I do about 3.6 to 4 miles per kWh in a Kia eNiro, compared to 0.9 to 1 mile per kWh (42mpg) in my last ICE car a Skoda Yeti. Just use fuel cells with electric motors. This may save some weight, compared to using batteries, although the hydrogen is held at very high pressure in heavy steel tanks. This may be a solution for some Camper vans, especially if you want the benefit from pulling into a fuel station and refilling your energy store relatively quickly. Personally the car I now drive is great for most of my needs, quiet, very powerful, really relaxing driving and charging is easy. I just plug into a domestic 3 pin plug and it takes 2.2kW (10Amp). Yes it takes a long time, but how much time do most people actually drive for and how much time is it doing nothing? We use it at a caravan site and either plug in the caravan or the car, there is more than sufficient power in the caravan battery to cover when the car is on charge. With a MoHo or camper van it would probably need dedicated charging facilities, but these will have to come if they do phase out ICE's. Off grid will be the big problem, not sure how you get round that without hydrogen and a genny! Nearly forgot to mention range! You worry about it at first, but after the first week it no longer mattered!


----------



## trevskoda

Folk can shout all they like but piston eng its out and electric is what the world has set about doing,  remember steam cars, would you want one now.


----------



## cold

How long before enterprising garages start converting existing setups to electric. Expensive but better than scrapping rig
It must be an option???


----------



## cold

Also the uk is the smallest pinprick on the map and will have little effect on overall emissions. China, US ,India,Russia etc will have a little more effect


----------



## bjh

So does that mean we should do nothing!! Every little bit we can do to save energy and stop polluting the World will help. We should be setting an example and leading the world. There is a great opportunity here to put some of the Great back into Great Britain. We need to embrace the change and create world beating technologies and manufacturing from this. We lost the lead in manufacturing wind generators, the short sighted feeling at the time being that .."huh, that will not be much of a business, why bother". Look at it now, we lost mega money not supporting it and giving it to others.  Lets get ahead while we can.


----------



## Phantom

So electric heating run off the batteries?


----------



## trevskoda

bjh said:


> So does that mean we should do nothing!! Every little bit we can do to save energy and stop polluting the World will help. We should be setting an example and leading the world. There is a great opportunity here to put some of the Great back into Great Britain. We need to embrace the change and create world beating technologies and manufacturing from this. We lost the lead in manufacturing wind generators, the short sighted feeling at the time being that .."huh, that will not be much of a business, why bother". Look at it now, we lost mega money not supporting it and giving it to others.  Lets get ahead while we can.


Thank heavens we did not give the plans for spitfire and merlin to germany.


----------



## trevskoda

Fuel stations will be given grants to fit electric charge points, every new station must have them as part of building regs.


----------



## colinm

trevskoda said:


> Fuel stations will be given grants to fit electric charge points, every new station must have them as part of building regs.


AFAIK no fuel stations are getting grants, if they want to stay in business they need to do it themselves. Shell already own over 135,000 public charge points across europe, but I think the traditional fuel station will be a thing of the past. I can see there being Costa and Starbucks type charging centres, you go to the coffee shop and charge your car.


----------



## SquirrellCook

trevskoda said:


> Thank heavens we did not give the plans for spitfire and merlin to germany.


We sold merlin engines to Germany after super marine winning the Schneider trophy


----------



## trevskoda

SquirrellCook said:


> We sold merlin engines to Germany after super marine winning the Schneider trophy


And they did not use them, but the spannish did fit them to the me 109 buchon.


----------



## Derekoak

The government is having an auction  end 2021 for new  renewable energy, wind farms on and offshore and floating and  solar of 12 gw that is double the last one. That will be enough for 20 million electric cars.


----------



## trevskoda

The problem with wind and solar is the fuel cost to make them outweighs the return within there lifetime.


----------



## Derekoak

trevskoda said:


> The problem with wind and solar is the fuel cost to make them outweighs the return within there lifetime.


That is not what I heard. Do you have reputable up to date evidence? Most mainstream renewables do not need electricity customer subsidy any longer as they are cheaper than fossil fuels. Possibly floating deep water windfarms may need a little, until they too become mainstream.
 Windfarm operators say the problem now is reorganising the grid links to take all this new energy and storing for low wind times by: grid links to other geographical wind systems, battery and other energy storage and hydrogen production when the wind is strong


----------



## Kontiki

Must admit haven't followed all of this thread so apoligies if its already been dicussed, just wondering if hydrogen being a more realistic option to electric. Maybe even it might be possible to convert conventional engines to run partly or completly on hydrogen. This way the conventional engines can be phased out, also the range which is a big issue is overcome as they can have filling stations. After all they convert engines to run off LPG. Batteries & range will always be the big issue, although motorhomes usually have relativley low mileages many like us do a long trip then stay in one area. A trip down to Spain (hopefully we will still be able to do) can be done in 3 to 5 days would take a few weeks having to spend time re-charging.


----------



## colinm

Hydrogen vehicles have electric motors, but a fuel cell powered by hydrogen. It looks like vehicles could be converted, but it wouldn't be cheap.
p.s. I should also mention, there are ICE hydrogen engines, they are not very good, there have been conversions of existing ICE, but they have not been able to run on 100% hydrogen, IIRC about 25% is max.


----------



## Derekoak

Hydrogen fuel cells are an option to power electric cars, but electrolysing water and reconverting to electric in a fuel cell is several times less efficient as a use of a kw than charging a lithium battery. Using electrolysed hydrogen to run an internal combustion engine is even less efficient.
 Perhaps the ability to store hydrogen for long periods in gasometers or such and less use of resources , like lithium and cobalt, will mean that efficiency is not the main issue? If wind power becomes plentiful enough then hydrogen produced at peak wind periods might be very helpful. At the moment the grid switches off wind power sometimes as it does not have enough storage to use it. That is even less efficient.


----------



## trevskoda

Derekoak said:


> That is not what I heard. Do you have reputable up to date evidence? Most mainstream renewables do not need electricity customer subsidy any longer as they are cheaper than fossil fuels. Possibly floating deep water windfarms may need a little, until they too become mainstream.
> Windfarm operators say the problem now is reorganising the grid links to take all this new energy and storing for low wind times by: grid links to other geographical wind systems, battery and other energy storage and hydrogen production when the wind is strong


Yes I am only repeating what I have read, mind you its confusing who to believe these days


----------



## trevskoda

Kontiki said:


> Must admit haven't followed all of this thread so apoligies if its already been dicussed, just wondering if hydrogen being a more realistic option to electric. Maybe even it might be possible to convert conventional engines to run partly or completly on hydrogen. This way the conventional engines can be phased out, also the range which is a big issue is overcome as they can have filling stations. After all they convert engines to run off LPG. Batteries & range will always be the big issue, although motorhomes usually have relativley low mileages many like us do a long trip then stay in one area. A trip down to Spain (hopefully we will still be able to do) can be done in 3 to 5 days would take a few weeks having to spend time re-charging.


20 mins will give a 80% on fast charge or so I have been told by my mate who has a VW golf, so tea break and away you go again, or do you take a day or two over tea.


----------



## colinm

This is an interesting read.
Energy Report — RethinkX


----------



## Derekoak

colinmd said:


> This is an interesting read.
> Energy Report — RethinkX


They make it sound so easy! :I think california has more sun than us, "free energy will aid cryptocurrency mining" that is not something I thought was important!


----------



## colinm

The Electric Vehicle Revolution - BBC Click - YouTube


----------



## Pierre leGrim

TrickyDicky said:


> The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles.
> As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover.
> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


For electric vehicles to be a success there need to be charging points outside every home and one at work for every employee using these vehicles for commuting. And one for every space on every car park in the land, whether rural or urban, otherwise drivers would be fighting duels for the last charging plug on the car park (see the Irish Code Duello, dated 1777, for details).
In terraced streets, there need to be as many charging points as there are available spaces, and these would need to be secure from casual vandalism and accidental damage. Plus any failure of a charging point you rely on would presumably be at your expense, or you could of course wait 6 months for it to be fixed by the Gov or council.
Huge laybys, or much bigger service stations, on long distance routes would be needed, with as many charging points as there are spaces so vehicles running out of power can stop and charge up again (although it would be worth opening a cafe or BnB at these)
The government won't be getting the massive tax income from petrol/diesel sales so the electricity used for charging vehicles will need to be really expensive to make up the tax losses. Either that, or road tax will need to be made hugely expensive. 
If you charged your car straight from the mains supply at your house, would you be breaking the law in the same way as you would be if you were caught using red diesel? 
If car charging from the house supply then, it would have to be via a separate, metered outlet with high-cost power otherwise you could expect your domestic bills to skyrocket in order that the Gov gets the taxation income it depends on. These separate, metered, charging circuits to avoid those costs would have to be installed at your expense of course. 
You know, I don't think Boris has thought this through, or he wouldn't have said no more petrol or diesel cars in just 10 years time .


----------



## fergie1061

trevskoda said:


> I think its cars at first but no one has said that as yet, as for a van, tests have been done and range will soon be 300+ with swappable battery packs for commercial vans.
> Here is the big problem, you will not be allowed to take a diesel engine anywhere in built up places, plus the tax and insurance will price them out forcing electric only.


Totally agree, and have my own thought's below.


----------



## fergie1061

To me, this is just the start. I see ordinary fuel (petrol/gas and diesel) becoming costlier and more fuel tax being placed on it, until it is no longer viable for us older van drivers to keep them on the road. 

Also making it almost impossible to replace an older van (something more can afford) and pricing those owners of the roads, out of the market. Making Motor-homing or wild camping or whatever it is you do at the moment, almost an elitist thing, where only those that can afford to buy new electric vehicles will be able to continue a hobby the many can afford at the moment. (It will take years before any 'older' electric vehicles appear. Even then you will still have to calculate in battery replacements, motor burn out etc etc.  

I'm playing devils advocate here, but that's how I see things going. Also can you see these 'electric charging points' being readily available in the highlands and islands even in another ten years? FGS we haven't even got full broadband up there yet and some places (SOUTH of Watford Gap! - only joking but north of Manchester / Liverpool not so much) are on 5G whereas your lucky to get terrestrial internet with one bar in some places beyond Gretna ( I Kid you not!! - try it passing Kirkpatrick Fleming the whole lot vanishes!!) so whats the plan for helping those who will be unable to move over to electric? ....alas the silence and information being offered on this concerning and downright worthwhile point is as usual when any problem like this arises... deafening. 

Unless anyone has a conversion solution, with every spare inch of roofspace / van? is covered in solar panels and we invent our own replacement electric engines?? ..... got anything up your sleeve campers? Phil?


----------



## Chasn

For motorhomes to go EV the government might be persuaded raise the 3.5T weight limit to 4.0T. 
Hydrogen/fuel cell vehicles for the private vehicles is a dead end because the rare metals used in fuel cells are so rare that the price will never come down enough to enable scaling. Fuel cells could work with public vehicles where reduced numbers and higher investment in vehicle costs are economic. 
The recent developments announced by Elon Musk during battery day indicate that we could be shortly getting quantum jumps in the performance and range in lithium batteries with reduced costs and weight. This is due to the new 4680 cell which is planned to be first used in the Giga Berlin factory which should be producing cars in about a year.


----------



## Winterskp

Hydrogen fuel cells will be the way ahead for heavy transport. No weight penalty for batteries, refuelling almost as rapid as diesel, range only limited by filling station availability. Trains, buses, ambulances, even aircraft already use the technology which is still in its infancy. Ridiculously, there are already mains-independent EV charging stations that use hydrogen fuel cells to provide the electricity.
As fuel cells become mainstream, I reckon motorhomes powered in this way will become the norm, either all-electric, or with heaters and jobs burning the stuff.


----------



## trevskoda

One thing for sure is that personal cars etc will sone be banned from cities and electric monorail will be the only transport, same as japan etc.


----------



## mry716

Or perhaps there will be cars running on metal dust in 10 years time.........

World first: Dutch brewery burns iron as a clean, recyclable fuel








						Recyclable metal fuels for clean and compact zero-carbon power
					

Metal fuels, as recyclable carriers of clean energy, are promising alternatives to fossil fuels in a future low-carbon economy. Fossil fuels are a con…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				











						Metal makes for a promising alternative to fossil fuels
					

Clean fuels come in many forms, but burning iron or aluminum seems to be stretching the definition – unless you ask a team of scientists led by McGill University, who see a low-carbon future that runs on metal. The team is studying the combustion characteristics of metal powders to determine…




					newatlas.com


----------



## Simonfrench

TrickyDicky said:


> The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles.
> As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover.
> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


Well the next ten years will bring forth amazing inventions when necessity needs. We will have electric campers with 500 mile distance between charges, charging will be part of your hook up and fast charges in separate bays before you leave. Many areas will have fast chargers for those wild camping in car parks and services. Existing campers will be able to get conversions from diesel to EV. Hope your all feeling rich!!


----------



## trevskoda

Simonfrench said:


> Well the next ten years will bring forth amazing inventions when necessity needs. We will have electric campers with 500 mile distance between charges, charging will be part of your hook up and fast charges in separate bays before you leave. Many areas will have fast chargers for those wild camping in car parks and services. Existing campers will be able to get conversions from diesel to EV. Hope your all feeling rich!!


By that time I will be ball axed and in care.


----------



## Eric Eke

Electric motorhome will be useless if stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway no heater lights and batteries dead car'nt be towed


----------



## trevskoda

Eric Eke said:


> Electric motorhome will be useless if stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway no heater lights and batteries dead car'nt be towed


The heater will work for ages and van will switch to parking lights which are led and use little.
AA and ruc will have trucks with standby charge sets for problems like that, same as folk who run out of fuel, at least in the van you will be able to use the loo
 but think of those stuck in cars.


----------



## Eric Eke

trevskoda said:


> The heater will work for ages and van will switch to parking lights which are led and use little.
> AA and ruc will have trucks with standby charge sets for problems like that, same as folk who run out of fuel, at least in the van you will be able to use the loo
> but think of those stuck in cars.


OK if you have a full charge or the emergency service can sit for 30mins with a 45kw generator


----------



## colinm

Eric Eke said:


> OK if you have a full charge or the emergency service can sit for 30mins with a 45kw generator


The heater works for hours even on part charge, breakdown services already carry chargers and they only have to work for a few minutes to get enough charge in to get you to a charging point. There are already nearly 200,000 BEV's in UK, you won't find many who regret buying them.


----------



## Winterskp

For anyone not aware, have a look at








						HYZON Motors: 100,000 Hydrogen Trucks on the Road by 2030 - FuelCellsWorks
					

An all-star line-up of vehicle manufacturers, technology and infrastructure providers have signed a coalition statement certifying their joint commitment to slashing greenhouse gas emissions in the European transport and logistics...




					fuelcellsworks.com


----------



## colinm

I think for our usage hydrogen will be the answer, the battery improvements announced are only going to give a relatedly small improvement in range, perfectly fine for the vast majority of cars, but not for many motorhomes.


----------



## Grimbo

In the rush for the brave new world of EV's everyone seems to have forgotten who owns the rare elements required to make the battery of each and every one .
And once we have gone so far down the cul-de-sac of EV's then they will double or triple the price or just cut off supply.... the UK owns none of them and will be held hostage or have to comply with their demands . 
It seems strange that we are being forced to have EV's because we are polluting the planet when the launch of one Space X satellite is more polluting than most of those on this forums entire lifetime of emission's combined , let alone planned missions to the moon or mars .... air travel is also immune from being targeted or forced to change by 2030 .
The rush for EV's is more about the control of the public and how they travel....the most pollution any vehicle produces in it's lifetime is during manufacture yet it seems the plan is to scrap perfectly good vehicles and force people to buy new ones.....the emission's produced by the vehicles making the infrastructure needed for a windfarm and the many tons of raw materials transported to the site are conveniently not included in the calculations of justifying a wind turbine , nor the fact that life expired turbine blades are not recyclable for example .


----------



## trevskoda

In 30 years if I live I will be heading to the ton and dribbling in some care home, oops doing that now on here.


----------



## colinm

Grimbo said:


> In the rush for the brave new world of EV's everyone seems to have forgotten who owns the rare elements required to make the battery of each and every one .
> And once we have gone so far down the cul-de-sac of EV's then they will double or triple the price or just cut off supply.... the UK owns none of them and will be held hostage or have to comply with their demands .


The UK has one of  Europe's largest deposits of Lithium, so we can swap some of that.



> It seems strange that we are being forced to have EV's because we are polluting the planet when the launch of one Space X satellite is more polluting than most of those on this forums entire lifetime of emission's combined , let alone planned missions to the moon or mars .... air travel is also immune from being targeted or forced to change by 2030 .


A Space X launch produces around the same co2 as the worlds oil tankers produce in one minute.



> The rush for EV's is more about the control of the public and how they travel....the most pollution any vehicle produces in it's lifetime is during manufacture yet it seems the plan is to scrap perfectly good vehicles and force people to buy new ones....


The plans announced so far are to ban the sale of new ICE vehicles, there hasn't been any plans announced of scraping vehicles.



> .the emission's produced by the vehicles making the infrastructure needed for a windfarm and the many tons of raw materials transported to the site are conveniently not included in the calculations of justifying a wind turbine , nor the fact that life expired turbine blades are not recyclable for example .



For ICE vehicles most calculations ignore the co2 need to find extract and transport oil.


----------



## Grimbo

Swap Lithium ?  I don't foresee any swapping going on ....as in all things we will be paying dearly for the elements we need ..it won't be a fair swap and we will have no independent source for our needs .

Agreed the shipping industry is an  awful polluter and needs to clean up it's act ....but the level of CO2 they produce is much more than all small vehicles such as cars produce so shouldn't they be targeted first ? After all they number far fewer  ....

 I still think the pollution caused by futile space exploration and missions to mars would be better saved and the money put into fully understanding what happens under 2/3 of our own planets surface and perhaps in doing so would obliviate the need to try and colonise another planet so we can ruin that . In 30 years of diving it is indisputable to me that the world oceans are in dire trouble yet we continue to allow whales to be slaughtered , entire fish stocks to be wiped out and ecosystems destroyed..... if everything became electric overnight it wouldn't stop this decline

Scrappage is already happening .....see any local car dealers .....vehicles with another 10 years of serviceable life removed from the roads so new vehicles can be sold both ICE and EV , yet no independent figures are available for the affect on the environment if they were used and the new vehicles not produced .

EV calculations conveniently ignore the huge amount of CO2 that will be produced not to mention huge infrastructure devastation ....to put charging points into every street and road so they can be charged overnight when most people can't park outside their house or even in the same street . Look back a few years at the amount of damage that was done in the great cable TV laying episodes with whole streets worth of trees being killed by their roots being cut by trenchers ...... all the vehicles doing this work will have ICE engines as battery powered plant doesn't work....... nor do agricultural vehicles or HGV's and won't for the foreseeable future .

To be honest it's all smoke and mirrors and there are no truly independent figures as both sides have such vested interests and so much money is at stake .

The only way to sort this is the one thing that no government is willing or will ever do ....limit the amount of the most polluting item on the planet... Human Beings


----------



## trevskoda

Thank heavens im sub human


----------



## Simonfrench

Eric Eke said:


> Electric motorhome will be useless if stuck in a traffic jam on a motorway no heater lights and batteries dead car'nt be towed


True


----------



## trevskoda

Simonfrench said:


> True


So will a diesel, no pumps on m/way.


----------



## Tookey

Let's hope the European electric/battery revolution doesn't lead to even more children digging cobalt by hand in the Congo

....but hey, we got a target to hit!


----------



## colinm

Tookey said:


> Let's hope the European electric/battery revolution doesn't lead to even more children digging cobalt by hand in the Congo
> 
> ....but hey, we got a target to hit!


CNN Wrongly Blames Electric Cars for Unethical Cobalt Mining | DeSmog (desmogblog.com)


----------



## Tookey

colinmd said:


> CNN Wrongly Blames Electric Cars for Unethical Cobalt Mining | DeSmog (desmogblog.com)


Yeah I saw that, poor journalism and sensationalised. Article blamed electric cars directly where as I am fully aware that the majority of cobalt does not go there presently but I stated 'hope it doesn't lead to' so am unsure of your point

Estimates put 50% of cobalt supplied to the battery manufacturing process, including phones, laptops etc coming from Congo. Children mine cobalt in the Congo and I fear these targets will have a negative effect in the battery manufacturing industry


----------



## colinm

Just putting it in context. I'm sure it will lead to an increase in child labour in the cobalt mines, but these will most likely be children taken from scouring the rubbish heaps, either way it's a place which will exploit child labour unless 'we' in the western world decide to do something about it.


----------



## wildebus

Tookey said:


> Yeah I saw that, poor journalism and sensationalised. Article blamed electric cars directly where as I am fully aware that the majority of cobalt does not go there presently but I stated 'hope it doesn't lead to' so am unsure of your point
> 
> Estimates put 50% of cobalt supplied to the battery manufacturing process, including phones, laptops etc coming from Congo. Children mine cobalt in the Congo and I fear these targets will have a negative effect in the *battery manufacturing industry*


The LEAD ACID battery manufacturing industry use primarily recycled Lead and readily available Sulfuric Acid.   Maybe this is a good reason to stay with that older proven technology where it still does the job?


----------



## Tookey

wildebus said:


> The LEAD ACID battery manufacturing industry use primarily recycled Lead and readily available Sulfuric Acid.   Maybe this is a good reason to stay with that older proven technology where it still does the job?


Double post


----------



## Tookey

wildebus said:


> The LEAD ACID battery manufacturing industry use primarily recycled Lead and readily available Sulfuric Acid.   Maybe this is a good reason to stay with that older proven technology where it still does the job?


Unfortunately I am not knowlegable enough on batteries but hope to see your point discussed by those that are.

I do understand supply and demand and these Euro aims are dollar signs to some and the environmental (and people) damage at the mining/manufacturing stage will not figure in the emission reduction stats presented to us.


----------



## colinm

Cobalt is infinitely recyclable, problem is more and more devices using it.
co2 emission calculations have been made for entire life cycle from the mines to scrapping of vehicles, BEV's are still better. BUT, there is also another huge benefit, less street level polution, this is estimated to be killing thousands in the UK alone, and whilst vehicles are far from the only culprits, those streets with high traffic flows are far worse than any other areas.


----------



## mossypossy

AA Class Merc is the future


----------



## maingate

I believe you are all wrong and DAC is the future. One main part of it (the Fischer-Tropsch process) has been used for years by Sasol in South Africa. I know because I did commissioning on the Gas to Oil part of the process.









						The Promise of Direct Air Capture: Making Stuff Out of Thin Air
					

By making CO2 a vital part of our economy, we can begin to derive value from one of our climate change agents, currently emitted as a waste product.




					singularityhub.com


----------



## Derekoak

There will be a lot of misinformation about the effectiveness of electric vehicles, with all the vested interests for the existing way to do things. See the link below.
Aston Martin has been avoiding investment in electric vehicles and is way behind









						Aston Martin in row over 'sock puppet PR firm' pushing anti-electric vehicle study
					

Report disputing green benefits of EVs attributed to company registered to wife of carmaker’s director




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Deleted member 86441

I think climate change and the importance of acting quicker rather than later will accelerate over the forthcoming years and Im afraid that there will be no softly softly approach. It must be this way anyway and Diesel engines must go also because of the cancerous producing nano particles. It’s a luxury to have our campervans but not to the detriment of people’s health and the planet. Just enjoy now but I do see it being squeezed slowly into electric and also hydrogen and it will be only for the very rich to travel abroad. The good times have gone and we done it to ourselves.


----------



## Martin P

Bargain. Think I am going to go out with a bang. Live for today and be happy








						✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## Robmac

Martin P said:


> Bargain. Think I am going to go out with a bang. Live for today and be happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk



Oh yes Martin. I like that!


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> Bargain. Think I am going to go out with a bang. Live for today and be happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ✅£6995 2002 Jaguar XK8 4.0 V8 Auto Coupe Low Mileage Jaguar History at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk


At that age its worth nothing as it will be rotten underneath and in scrapy very soon.


----------



## jagmanx

trevskoda said:


> At that age its worth nothing as it will be rotten underneath and in scrapy very soon.


Add Insurance £7,995
Having said that I had an XJ6 for a few years..Insurance Ok
BUT 16mpg. Drove it to the Rhineland for a short break..Brilliant.
Also took my ageing father to Lords  (cricket).Turned up to drive in the car-park.
Attendant Looked at us and the car "Do come in" No charge ..probably thought we were MCC members !


----------



## trevskoda

jagmanx said:


> Add Insurance £7,995
> Having said that I had an XJ6 for a few years..Insurance Ok
> BUT 16mpg. Drove it to the Rhineland for a short break..Brilliant.
> Also took my ageing father to Lords  (cricket).Turned up to drive in the car-park.
> Attendant Looked at us and the car "Do come in" No charge ..probably thought we were MCC members !


Very few old cars here, people talk and point if its more than 4/5 years old, i had a person on our street complain to me for having a old car as they said i was bringing the price of the property down, i replyed with two words the second was off.


----------



## jagmanx

Yes all very wasteful..
The XJ6 went after mt father died but i repllaced it with a nearly new  X-type.
I know they had their critics but I liked it and kept it for 10 years.
Only sold it as after retiring no point in having a car & a motorhome especially as only one of us drives .
I did like the in-built AWD 60/40. It was fast enough and cruised well !
It looked about 2 years old when sold............Somebody got a bargain !


----------



## Robmac

jagmanx said:


> Add Insurance £7,995
> Having said that I had an XJ6 for a few years..Insurance Ok
> BUT 16mpg. Drove it to the Rhineland for a short break..Brilliant.
> Also took my ageing father to Lords  (cricket).Turned up to drive in the car-park.
> Attendant Looked at us and the car "Do come in" No charge ..probably thought we were MCC members !



I had an XJ6 too  years ago, although mine was a Daimler Sovereign rather than a Jag.

Fantastic car and just sitting in it felt very special. I was only about 20 or so at the time and drove like a bit of a nutter, it's a wonder I survived really!


----------



## jagmanx

The XJ6 Probably the best car I owned..Just too wide and thirsty !

Nice electric metal sunroof
Extra headroom for rear passengers
I did drive over Hardknott and Wrynose passes in it.
Thta was when I was "Old & Foolish"


----------



## number14

Back in the day, must have been 1971/72, my dad part exchanged his Triumph Stag for a Daimler Sovereign. The day after he drove away in the Sovereign the dealer was transferring the Stag to their Bristol showroom when the engine blew up on the motorway. Stags were well known for this as, I am sure, many of you know.
Anyway, lucky escape for dad!


----------



## Robmac

number14 said:


> Back in the day, must have been 1971/72, my dad part exchanged his Triumph Stag for a Daimler Sovereign. The day after he drove away in the Sovereign the dealer was transferring the Stag to their Bristol showroom when the engine blew up on the motorway. Stags were well known for this as, I am sure, many of you know.
> Anyway, lucky escape for dad!



Yes, I think they were often replaced with 3.5 Rover engines?


----------



## Martin P

We only do around 3000 miles a year in our car so fuel consumption is not an issue.
Also with us being old gits with a million years no claims bonus insurance is pretty good too. Our current car a Saab convertible 98 model cost us £1200  8 years ago.
2.3 twin cam its been the cheapest car imaginable. Just passed another mot too.
The missus was gutted. She did like the look of that Jag!


----------



## colinm

Check out the new gridserve charging station, 36 chargers, some up to 350Kw, their own solar 'power station' which should cover most of their needs, 6Mw of storage, so if needed they buy in power off peak, when the national grid loads up they sell back, also when they have excess power produced and full storage they sell on to grid. They have plans for 100 of these across the country, if these are of a similar size that's 600Mw of storage, so just one small company are turning BEV's from a drain on the grid to an addition to the grid.
They are also leasing (and selling?) BEV's and for every one they sell they plant enough trees to cover the co2 of manufacturing.
All this from someone who brought a BEV back in the early days and found the lack of charging so frustraighting he thought "I'm going to do something about this".


----------



## trevskoda

Farmer up the m2 not far from me has two fields of solar, his sheep graze away between/under the panels, lots did this when the full grants were on the go.


----------



## jagmanx

Electric sheep ? WOT NEXT.
I know if you rub a jumper you get Static Leccy.
Next they will be crossing sheep with Kangaroos to get........










Wooly Jumpers


----------



## Makzine

Ah but robots dream of electric sheep         or so I'm told.


----------



## Robmac

Makzine said:


> Ah but robots dream of electric sheep         or so I'm told.


----------



## RV12FUN

wildebus said:


> Out of Curiosity, I decided to check out the prices...
> Taking the Corsa as an example, looked on ArnoldClark.com (no point in looking at the official prices as we all know people don't pay those, so let's use real prices).
> Not really checking the specs, just comparing the engines now.....
> The most expensive Petrol Corsas for sale are £16,500.  (most are around the £12,500 mark for nearly new ones with little mileage)
> The cheapest Electric Corsas for sale are £25,000.   So a difference of £8,500.
> 
> Typical Annual service for a Corsa is say £310.  Road Tax is £140.  so fixed running costs are £450/annum.
> for an eCorsa, still need servicing - let's say it is £150 a year. and Road Tax is £Zero - so £150/Annum.  eCorsa wins by £300 a year
> Variable costs will be the same for everything but fuel.
> Let's say charging the eCorsa is always free  (doubtful, but who knows.  Let's be optimistic).
> If you do say 8,000 miles a year at an average of 40MPG and fuel is £5.50 a Gallon (reasonable enough.  Not going to put fuel up as no increasing electric charging either),  Petrol will cost £1,100 a year.  So with extra fixed costs, the Petrol Corsa is £1,400 a year.
> 
> So after around 7.5 years, the Electric Corsa (using all numbers above) will have become the cheaper option.  In my case, I probably do half that mileage.  If I were to go Electric, it would take over 12 years to recoop the extra if I got the eCorsa instead of the most expensive Petrol one (which I wouldn't anyway and far more likely to get one at £12,500 or less, which makes it more like 17 years to recoop the extra purchase cost by cheaper running).
> 
> So forget the financial benefits - all about the environment isn't it!
> 
> Or is it?
> Environmental Cost of building the batteries.  Huge.
> Environmental Cost of creating the electrical infrastructure for all the charging points.  Massive
> Enviromental Cost of generating the electricity for all these 'zero emissions' vehicles.  Better then the ICEs, but still very significant
> 
> So how much in reality will going to Electric Cars "save the world" compared to being more thoughtful about cutting down on using current cars and other consumers?
> 
> Offer me an eCar in exchange for my current Petrol car?  Yes please.   Ask me to pay double the purchase cost?  Think I'll pass, thanks.


Hello, just a few things to think about, you’ve forgotten to put in the depreciation of the ice car over the electric car, they don’t need servicing every year and the servicing costs are much less. Ownership is about the total price and not the front end workings. Last is there doesn’t seem to be anyone talking who owns electric cars, most people who have electric cars have them on lease as it’s a fixed price with no worries and yes this is how we have one. I owned my own vehicles for over 40 years and the deal I have on a BMW is cheaper than the depreciation on every other car I’ve owned in the last 10 years. Purchasing for cars is a thing of the past but there are a few exceptions but not many. If you want to ask me about running an electric car feel free to message me, it’s by far the best toy I’ve had in years. Happy Christmas to everyone


----------



## Martin P

Really the numbers can be manipulated to prove just about anything.
For me the cheapest way to buy/ run a car is what we did with our Saab.
Great car. 2.3 twin cam fuel injection convertible. Leather seats, wood dash, air con alloys auto gearbox. Great car
£1200 to buy 8 years ago
Cost to own £150 per year
Serviced twice in 8 years , local garage £200 each time £50 per year
Road tax £250 per year
So £450 per year plus fuel
And its a damn site better than an electric noddy car


----------



## colinm

Martin P said:


> And its a damn site better than an electric noddy car



In what respect?


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> Really the numbers can be manipulated to prove just about anything.
> For me the cheapest way to buy/ run a car is what we did with our Saab.
> Great car. 2.3 twin cam fuel injection convertible. Leather seats, wood dash, air con alloys auto gearbox. Great car
> £1200 to buy 8 years ago
> Cost to own £150 per year
> Serviced twice in 8 years , local garage £200 each time £50 per year
> Road tax £250 per year
> So £450 per year plus fuel
> And its a damn site better than an electric noddy car


Serviced twice in 8 years, do you ever use it, i service my cars every six mths or less, last set of b pads lasted 8 weeks.


----------



## trevskoda

The layout of rent on an electric car will mean I will not ever own one, my last car at 7 years old cost me £10 and ran for 15 years without fault, so only fuel and oils etc, beat that.


----------



## Martin P

In every respect


----------



## trevskoda

If you count the fuel & oils plus services on a piston tugger then over many years it will start to show, but by that time the batts will be on the way out plus rust etc, so im thinking on long term about the same.
Car makers say in 5 years battery life and distance covered from a fast charge will be not much dif that engined cars.


----------



## Martin P

Set of brake pads in 8 weeks? Are you on the run!


----------



## mark61

colinmd said:


> In what respect?



In the respect of noddies of course.


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> Set of brake pads in 8 weeks? Are you on the run!


We drive our cars here, and I mean drive em, we have the best roads for it.


----------



## trevskoda

To be honest i think the last set of pads were elcheepos from god knows where, just fitted ferodo this time to see how they go.


----------



## Martin P

Looks like a lovely place


----------



## Martin P

I put ferodo on the van .


----------



## mark61

trevskoda said:


> We drive our cars here, and I mean drive em, we have the best roads for it.View attachment 89681View attachment 89682


 Thats a motorway.


----------



## colinm

Martin P said:


> In every respect


At a traffic lights drag race, a granny in a E-Corsa would leave a 900Turbo for dead, even with Stig driving it. That may become one of the problems in the future, most BEV's accelerate at what would have been 'high performance' car rates, but they are generally heavier, so I can see youngsters flying down the road and crashing at the first corner.


----------



## maingate

colinmd said:


> At a traffic lights drag race, a granny in a E-Corsa would leave a 900Turbo for dead, even with Stig driving it. That may become one of the problems in the future, most BEV's accelerate at what would have been 'high performance' car rates, but they are generally heavier, so I can see youngsters flying down the road and crashing at the first corner.



DC Drives can be adjusted with Potentiometers, so while I agree that they CAN outperform many high performance vehicles from a standing start, they should be set up for battery life more than performance I would have thought. All of which begs the question, can you 'tuneup' a standard electric vehicle?

I followed a Tesla car the other week. It had very sporty styling and looked the business.


----------



## colinm

maingate said:


> DC Drives can be adjusted with Potentiometers, so while I agree that they CAN outperform many high performance vehicles from a standing start, they should be set up for battery life more than performance I would have thought. All of which begs the question, can you 'tuneup' a standard electric vehicle?
> 
> I followed a Tesla car the other week. It had very sporty styling and looked the business.


All the BEV's I've been in have different modes that can be set, all along lines of 'sport', 'standard', 'eco', and I've no doubt when they become common place 'tuning shops' will offer a service.
A friend of mine has a Tesla S 100D, IIRC 0-60 is 3.5secs, he used it for a few weeks but got fed up, he would rather drive his AM Vantage (in the dry) as it's more fun, his wife mainly drives the Tesla. Also he said the interior is a 'bit cheap', but I guess that's compared to other high priced cars.


----------



## Martin P

colinmd said:


> At a traffic lights drag race, a granny in a E-Corsa would leave a 900Turbo for dead, even with Stig driving it. That may become one of the problems in the future, most BEV's accelerate at what would have been 'high performance' car rates, but they are generally heavier, so I can see youngsters flying down the road and crashing at the first corner.


Big wow.
I'm in my car with the top down, elbow on the door and life is good. Granny in her whining little boring car can take off vertically for all I care


----------



## colinm

Martin P said:


> Big wow.
> I'm in my car with the top down, elbow on the door and life is good. Granny in her whining little boring car can take off vertically for all I care


Granny will be wishing she could take off vertically, instead she'll be swearing about the old duffer holding her up on way back from EWM.   
Funny enough, I would think if Saab had kept going and been brought out by the Chinese, it would be at forefront of BEV's, a bit like Polestar(Volvo) are.


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> Big wow.
> I'm in my car with the top down, elbow on the door and life is good. Granny in her whining little boring car can take off vertically for all I care


Elbows on doors is bad driving farmer type practice, tut tut.


----------



## trevskoda

mark61 said:


> Thats a motorway.


Thats the good stretch.
Big problem here is many hills and twisty bends requiring lots of braking and power, tyres brakes shocks and steering parts wear fast.


----------



## Eieio

For my three penneth worth I think the real issue is the infrastructure. Currently it’s hopeless - take for example the person who took nine hours to go 130 miles in their new electric Porsche. Most electric cars are currently charged up at home. To provide enough electricity new power stations will be needed and there’s no sign of that - in fact they are dithering about replacing the old nuclear stations to meet current demand - HS2 isn’t planned to finish until 2033. Most people who call in at motorway service stations don’t stop for fuel but imagine the queues if they did - obviously they’d have to make every bay a charging point. 
As for the technology I think hydrogen has probably an equal chance of taking over and there are plenty of examples HGVs already particularly buses. On the question of HGVs the solution will probably be overhead lines like trams running along key distribution routes. They’ve also experimented with road surface pick ups. This lends it self to those auto drive lorry trains they’ve been talking about.
As for the transition period beyond 2030 the government will need to introduce a scrappage scheme and encourage car rental schemes similar to those for bikes and scooters particularly in cities. It’s going to be a painful experience wrenching our vehicles from us.
Having said all that - can you see the government getting their act together to make this happen particularly as we will be in an economic depression for the next five years.


----------



## Derekoak

Eieio said:


> For my three penneth worth I think the real issue is the infrastructure. Currently it’s hopeless - take for example the person who took nine hours to go 130 miles in their new electric Porsche. Most electric cars are currently charged up at home. To provide enough electricity new power stations will be needed and there’s no sign of that - in fact they are dithering about replacing the old nuclear stations to meet current demand - HS2 isn’t planned to finish until 2033. Most people who call in at motorway service stations don’t stop for fuel but imagine the queues if they did - obviously they’d have to make every bay a charging point.
> As for the technology I think hydrogen has probably an equal chance of taking over and there are plenty of examples HGVs already particularly buses. On the question of HGVs the solution will probably be overhead lines like trams running along key distribution routes. They’ve also experimented with road surface pick ups. This lends it self to those auto drive lorry trains they’ve been talking about.
> As for the transition period beyond 2030 the government will need to introduce a scrappage scheme and encourage car rental schemes similar to those for bikes and scooters particularly in cities. It’s going to be a painful experience wrenching our vehicles from us.
> Having said all that - can you see the government getting their act together to make this happen particularly as we will be in an economic depression for the next five years.


I agree with all your points, except as a minor aside, many new giga watts of power ARE being planned by more wind, offshore and on, and solar. Storage will be needed to smooth demand, but that is possible too. We do not need more fossil fuel power stations. That being said the infra structure and a comprehensive plan is what is missing. Making new infrastructure could even get us out of the looming depression if they would get to it.


----------



## Pedalman

Electric cars and trades vans for local travel may be workable but I can't see how electric vehicles can be practical for long distances. Who wants to set off to the south coast  and have to spend 2 hours waiting to charge to 60% at the halfway point.

Has the government noticed the number of of cars in petrol stations at the moment that gets 600 miles from a tank full and taking only a five minute stop to fill up? ......How is that going to work when all those electric vehicles are stopping for two hours to charge up,  even to 60% ?
How many charging points will be needed and how big will the equivalent to petrol stations need to be to fit all the cars in for two hour stops,  ? 
The national grid is already put under pressure when the nation puts the kettle on during a football match at half time, or the adverts during Coronation street,   how will the national grid cope with millions of electric cars?


----------



## Pudsey Bear

I got to page 7 and didn't notice any comments regarding LPG, would a LPG conversion be excluded from any legislation,  you can(I think) still go into London with one.


----------



## trevskoda

Pedalman said:


> Electric cars and trades vans for local travel may be workable but I can't see how electric vehicles can be practical for long distances. Who wants to set off to the south coast  and have to spend 2 hours waiting to charge to 60% at the halfway point.
> 
> Has the government noticed the number of of cars in petrol stations at the moment that gets 600 miles from a tank full and taking only a five minute stop to fill up? ......How is that going to work when all those electric vehicles are stopping for two hours to charge up,  even to 60% ?
> How many charging points will be needed and how big will the equivalent to petrol stations need to be to fit all the cars in for two hour stops,  ?
> The national grid is already put under pressure when the nation puts the kettle on during a football match at half time, or the adverts during Coronation street,   how will the national grid cope with millions of electric cars?


The USA have trucks which will run a 1000 miles on one charge, 45 min charge and they will go 600 miles, thats more than the length of England & Scotland.


----------



## trevskoda

Pudsey Bear said:


> I got to page 7 and didn't notice any comments regarding LPG, would a LPG conversion be excluded from any legislation,  you can(I think) still go into London with one.


Gas will not be used as it is dirty, in 5 years time it will be banned for central heating homes and those who converted will have to rip it out.


----------



## davef

As I write this, wind power is producing just 2.97% of the UK's energy see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Unless very cheap electric power storage methods are invented, wind power will never be the answer unless everyone is prepared for no power supply when a high pressure system sits motionless over the UK.
IC engines are not being phased out for pollution reasons. CO2 level is about 400 parts per million, with human impact just 4% of that, thats just 1 part in 62,500 parts of the atmosphere, so no it will not alter the earth's temperature. We are actually in a CO2 drought as far as plants are concerned - and in geological time frames in an all time low level in an inter-glacial period, that in the next coming ice age could be the cause of mass extinction. Modern diesels with particulate filters have found to actually clean the city air of particulates in a German study - that is the air coming out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than the air going in to the engine, as most particulates are not caused by the fuel burnt but by tyre and brake wear.
The most likely reason to scrap IC engines seems to me to stop the general public being freely able to travel in their own vehicle. Part of the "Build Back Better" great reset. A new "Green" future where we stay where we live or cycle or walk, or if rich enough call an autonomous taxi. Unless one of the elite of course......


----------



## trevskoda

The ex systems put out fine particles which are more dangerous than the old heavy dirty engines.
If you bring all the correct facts together we would be best going back to our caves, i wont be here by the next ice age so someone else can sort it all out.


----------



## colinm

davef said:


> As I write this, wind power is producing just 2.97% of the UK's energy see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
> Unless very cheap electric power storage methods are invented, wind power will never be the answer unless everyone is prepared for no power supply when a high pressure system sits motionless over the UK.


The answer to this is simple, and some BEV owners are already onto it, you leave the BEV plugged in to a smart charger, during cheap periods when plenty of power available they charge up, when the grids on max it puts it back in.



> Modern diesels with particulate filters have found to actually clean the city air of particulates in a German study - that is the air coming out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than the air going in to the engine, as most particulates are not caused by the fuel burnt but by tyre and brake wear.


Please feel free to post a link, I've searched and can't find it.



> The most likely reason to scrap IC engines seems to me to stop the general public being freely able to travel in their own vehicle. Part of the "Build Back Better" great reset. A new "Green" future where we stay where we live or cycle or walk, or if rich enough call an autonomous taxi. Unless one of the elite of course......


I'm not sure changing to BEV's enables this, but it true enough that millions of people all driving across the country is a mess.


----------



## mark61

Hope you are all using this time to get used to new charging regimes.
Simply go and park your car in a local petrol station and leave it there all night.


----------



## trevskoda

mark61 said:


> Hope you are all using this time to get used to new charging regimes.
> Simply go and park your car in a local petrol station and leave it there all night.


What out in the rain and maybe all the windows smashed by morning, no way, also what happens when it may be required for an emergency run, not workable, or if you live in the sticks.


----------



## mark61

trevskoda said:


> What out in the rain and maybe all the windows smashed by morning, no way, also what happens when it may be required for an emergency run, not workable, or if you live in the sticks.


 Stop making valid points Trev.
It's the new new, deal with it.


----------



## ricc

mark61 said:


> Hope you are all using this time to get used to new charging regimes.
> Simply go and park your car in a local petrol station and leave it there all night.


what local petrol station....our nearest is 5 miles away

if  leccy car is connected to a smart charger...charges on cheap electricity , then dumps it back into the grid when demand is high ,,,what are the chances battery will be less than optimal  when i want to use it?


----------



## colinm

ricc said:


> what local petrol station....our nearest is 5 miles away
> 
> if  leccy car is connected to a smart charger...charges on cheap electricity , then dumps it back into the grid when demand is high ,,,what are the chances battery will be less than optimal  when i want to use it?


Similar here, I don't normally drive near any fuel stations, a charger at home means cheap top ups without having to drive miles. All the houses in our village have offroad parking, so all can benefit.
The smart chargers are in early days, but AFAIK you set the minimum charge needed at any time, for many(not all) who work 9 to 5 within say 20miles, that means come home and park up for night, set a minimum for rest of evening, then full charge for morning.


----------



## sparrks

colinmd said:


> Torry Canyon, Exon Valdes, New Horizons, and countless others, then we get to the environmental cost of oil extraction.


How much of an electric vehicle is made from plastic derived from oil?


----------



## davef

Just now wind turbines producing just 0.88% of grid demand and solar just 0.14% Probably not enough to keep lights on let alone charge millions of BEVs. If they build enough reliable power stations, the grid will have to be completely upgraded to take the extra current - power lines substations - the lot. Very unlikely to happen - a staggering cost to the country.
When people say they can be charged for free at public chargers, it just means they are freeloading off the general public who have to pay for it. Similarly when comparing costs allowance needs to be made for the fact that most of petrol/diesel fuel cost is government tax. Domestic electricity is not taxed in the same way at the moment, but you can be sure that as soon as enough people have switched to electric vehicles they will devise some way of clawing the same or more tax from them. When that is factored in, I expect IC vehicles would be cheaper to run.


----------



## sparrks

bjh said:


> Electric is already here, shocking though that may be (sorry couldn't resist it). So we all need to get used to it and see how to make the best of it. The electricity required can be from batteries or fuel cells. Hydrogen has been mentioned and could be a way forward.  Bit of a waste of time for ICE's though as an electric motor is 3 to 4 times more efficient that an ICE.  I do about 3.6 to 4 miles per kWh in a Kia eNiro, compared to 0.9 to 1 mile per kWh (42mpg) in my last ICE car a Skoda Yeti. Just use fuel cells with electric motors. This may save some weight, compared to using batteries, although the hydrogen is held at very high pressure in heavy steel tanks. This may be a solution for some Camper vans, especially if you want the benefit from pulling into a fuel station and refilling your energy store relatively quickly. Personally the car I now drive is great for most of my needs, quiet, very powerful, really relaxing driving and charging is easy. I just plug into a domestic 3 pin plug and it takes 2.2kW (10Amp). Yes it takes a long time, but how much time do most people actually drive for and how much time is it doing nothing? We use it at a caravan site and either plug in the caravan or the car, there is more than sufficient power in the caravan battery to cover when the car is on charge. With a MoHo or camper van it would probably need dedicated charging facilities, but these will have to come if they do phase out ICE's. Off grid will be the big problem, not sure how you get round that without hydrogen and a genny! Nearly forgot to mention range! You worry about it at first, but after the first week it no longer mattered!


The converting ICE to hydrogen idea is that it's greener than scrapping ICE powered vehicles, read just recently that the EV are only carbon neutral after 50,000 miles also depending on the source of the electric to power them.


----------



## sparrks

Grimbo said:


> In the rush for the brave new world of EV's everyone seems to have forgotten who owns the rare elements required to make the battery of each and every one .
> And once we have gone so far down the cul-de-sac of EV's then they will double or triple the price or just cut off supply.... the UK owns none of them and will be held hostage or have to comply with their demands .
> It seems strange that we are being forced to have EV's because we are polluting the planet when the launch of one Space X satellite is more polluting than most of those on this forums entire lifetime of emission's combined , let alone planned missions to the moon or mars .... air travel is also immune from being targeted or forced to change by 2030 .
> *The rush for EV's is more about the control of the public and how they travel.*...the most pollution any vehicle produces in it's lifetime is during manufacture yet it seems the plan is to scrap perfectly good vehicles and force people to buy new ones.....the emission's produced by the vehicles making the infrastructure needed for a windfarm and the many tons of raw materials transported to the site are conveniently not included in the calculations of justifying a wind turbine , nor the fact that life expired turbine blades are not recyclable for example .


In a nut shell!! Spot on.


----------



## trevskoda

Anyone know where I can buy a good horse.


----------



## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> Anyone know where I can buy a good horse.



Neigh lad.


----------



## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Neigh lad.


Looks like I will have to HOOF it to look elsewhere then.


----------



## sparrks

Pedalman said:


> Electric cars and trades vans for local travel may be workable but I can't see how electric vehicles can be practical for long distances. Who wants to set off to the south coast  and have to spend 2 hours waiting to charge to 60% at the halfway point.
> 
> Has the government noticed the number of of cars in petrol stations at the moment that gets 600 miles from a tank full and taking only a five minute stop to fill up? ......How is that going to work when all those electric vehicles are stopping for two hours to charge up,  even to 60% ?
> How many charging points will be needed and how big will the equivalent to petrol stations need to be to fit all the cars in for two hour stops,  ?
> The national grid is already put under pressure when the nation puts the kettle on during a football match at half time, or the adverts during Coronation street,   how will the national grid cope with millions of electric cars?


Why do petrol stations need electric vehicle charging points? Build large out of town charging areas for them


----------



## harrow

sparrks said:


> Why do petrol stations need electric vehicle charging points? Build large out of town charging areas for them



Around here the supermarkets have put charging points in their carparks  one newbuild asda has about 20 electric bays


----------



## colinm

sparrks said:


> How much of an electric vehicle is made from plastic derived from oil?


The amount of oil used to make these as opposed to ICE, little if any different.


----------



## trevskoda

sparrks said:


> Why do petrol stations need electric vehicle charging points? Build large out of town charging areas for them


So just like now you will nip in for fags papers burger sarnies etc where the money is made.


----------



## trevskoda

colinmd said:


> The amount of oil used to make these as opposed to ICE, little if any different.


Yes but no dirty air when driving them in towns, thats the whole point in it.


----------



## colinm

sparrks said:


> The converting ICE to hydrogen idea is that it's greener than scrapping ICE powered vehicles, read just recently that the EV are only carbon neutral after 50,000 miles also depending on the source of the electric to power them.


Who's scrapping ICE cars?
Tesla3 vs MB C220D, which are roughly equivalent, 20,000 miles, so about 2 years for the average UK car.


----------



## trevskoda

No cars have to be scraped, you just will not be able to register a new one.


----------



## colinm

sparrks said:


> Why do petrol stations need electric vehicle charging points? Build large out of town charging areas for them


I suspect out of town shopping areas and super markets will be fitting charging points, put them at far end from doors so they only get used when needed.


----------



## trevskoda

colinmd said:


> I suspect out of town shopping areas and super markets will be fitting charging points, put them at far end from doors so they only get used when needed.


All small car parks and bus park and ride have them here for years now, each pod takes two cars.
Here is Mosley mill council building unit.


----------



## Ellendale

trevskoda said:


> Gas will not be used as it is dirty, in 5 years time it will be banned for central heating homes and those who converted will have to rip it out.


My 1999 Volvo S80 T6 2978cc LPG converted in 2007 has covered more than 200,000 miles post conversion. Each MoT emissions test shows
zero emissions - why? - because the by-product of burning LPG is H20 (water!) Here is the twist - LPG is the by product of producing PETROL!
Apparently the Fuel Companies burn off more LPG whilst producing petrol etc than is consumed by converted vehicles. Somehow I don't think
using an LPG Conversion is "dirty" - but willing to listen to reasoned discussion.


----------



## colinm

Ellendale said:


> My 1999 Volvo S80 T6 2978cc LPG converted in 2007 has covered more than 200,000 miles post conversion. Each MoT emissions test shows
> zero emissions - why? - because the by-product of burning LPG is H20 (water!) Here is the twist - LPG is the by product of producing PETROL!
> Apparently the Fuel Companies burn off more LPG whilst producing petrol etc than is consumed by converted vehicles. Somehow I don't think
> using an LPG Conversion is "dirty" - but willing to listen to reasoned discussion.


Even the companies promoting LPG conversions don't claim zero emissions, and for good reason, whilst they are very low emissions they can't achieve zero, so you have a totally unique car. 
BTW , the MOT doesn't check co2 or particulates, and it's Hydrogen that only produces water on combustion.


----------



## trevskoda

Ellendale said:


> My 1999 Volvo S80 T6 2978cc LPG converted in 2007 has covered more than 200,000 miles post conversion. Each MoT emissions test shows
> zero emissions - why? - because the by-product of burning LPG is H20 (water!) Here is the twist - LPG is the by product of producing PETROL!
> Apparently the Fuel Companies burn off more LPG whilst producing petrol etc than is consumed by converted vehicles. Somehow I don't think
> using an LPG Conversion is "dirty" - but willing to listen to reasoned discussion.


Here we go.


----------



## sparrks

colinmd said:


> The amount of oil used to make these as opposed to ICE, little if any different.


My point was that they both need oil for manufacture - the need for oil will not go away any time soon


----------



## Derekoak

Pedalman said:


> Electric cars and trades vans for local travel may be workable but I can't see how electric vehicles can be practical for long distances. Who wants to set off to the south coast  and have to spend 2 hours waiting to charge to 60% at the halfway point.
> 
> Has the government noticed the number of of cars in petrol stations at the moment that gets 600 miles from a tank full and taking only a five minute stop to fill up? ......How is that going to work when all those electric vehicles are stopping for two hours to charge up,  even to 60% ?
> How many charging points will be needed and how big will the equivalent to petrol stations need to be to fit all the cars in for two hour stops,  ?
> The national grid is already put under pressure when the nation puts the kettle on during a football match at half time, or the adverts during Coronation street,   how will the national grid cope with millions of electric cars?


UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex









						UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex
					

Clean energy firm Gridserve has plans for more than 100 such sites over next five years




					www.theguardian.com
				




20 minutes for 60% or more. For 36 cars. 24p/kwhr, from a local solar farm and its own solar canopy and a big battery for backup. First of a 100 like it from this firm.


----------



## davef

Derekoak said:


> UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex
> 
> 
> Clean energy firm Gridserve has plans for more than 100 such sites over next five years
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20 minutes for 60% or more. For 36 cars. 24p/kwhr, from a local solar farm and its own solar canopy and a big battery for backup. First of a 100 like it from this firm.


Presumably only working when its bright daylight - otherwise reliant on its battery backup which is sufficient to charge 120 cars. On a dull overcast spell in mid winter I cannt see this working without drawing from the main electric grid. Or perhaps it will be reliant on its leisure area where you will be able to cycle to generate electric.......


----------



## trevskoda

Wind farms in winter for the garage id expect.


----------



## Derekoak

Yes get those kids pedalling in the rest area. I worked out 36 cars charging at once would run down the battery in just over an hour, but a solar farm will produce about  30% of output in overcast day hours. They will be on a tariff to charge the battery at cheapest 5p rate where they can. I assume they will as last resort use the grid and still profit at 24p /kw hour.
Concerning whole grid storage,  I read that a test system to store energy by compressing air, cooling it to liquid and storing it in massive tanks when wind was strong, then using the energy to run a turbine to produce electricity in still periods was being tried. In mass it would be cheaper  in capital than lithium batteries and efficient enough, similar to pumped storage. It could store for long periods. These are problems that technology can solve given the will.


----------



## Asterix

davef said:


> Presumably only working when its bright daylight - otherwise reliant on its battery backup which is sufficient to charge 120 cars. On a dull overcast spell in mid winter I cannt see this working without drawing from the main electric grid. Or perhaps it will be reliant on its leisure area where you will be able to cycle to generate electric.......



This explains how they are doing it...


----------



## Derekoak

Thats worth listening to


----------



## davef

Ah, it has a 5 megawatt connection to the grid..... so when its not sufficiently sunny and there's a high pressure sitting over the UK meaning wind is producing virtually nothing, the EVs will be charged up by gas fired power stations. He seemed quite dismissive of "fossil burners".....


----------



## colinm

davef said:


> Ah, it has a 5 megawatt connection to the grid..... so when its not sufficiently sunny and there's a high pressure sitting over the UK meaning wind is producing virtually nothing, the EVs will be charged up by gas fired power stations. He seemed quite dismissive of "fossil burners".....


Or when it is very sunny and they have surplus they supply the grid.


----------



## Derekoak

davef said:


> Ah, it has a 5 megawatt connection to the grid..... so when its not sufficiently sunny and there's a high pressure sitting over the UK meaning wind is producing virtually nothing, the EVs will be charged up by gas fired power stations. He seemed quite dismissive of "fossil burners".....


We have supply links to other wind/sun systems. We can bring in power from them on the odd occasions where we have no sun and no wind. Of course we should have more supply links in the future. As I say there are potential storage options too. Enabling demand flexibility tariffs are another partial solution. Hydrogen power station  conversions are another possibility. Gas should become less and less relevant. We do not need to stay with the status quo.


----------



## bjh

Brilliant video. I think that must answer most peoples worries and insecurities about electric vehicles. This guy has sorted the problems that many none believers keep raising. Personally I can manage quite happily on a 13A plug at home, but should I need a top up some where the day is coming when it will be easy. Electric motor homes will come, but it will take a while before engineers develop practical solutions. There will be an answer.


----------



## Deleted member 47550

colinmd said:


> AFAIK no fuel stations are getting grants, if they want to stay in business they need to do it themselves. Shell already own over 135,000 public charge points across europe, but I think the traditional fuel station will be a thing of the past. I can see there being Costa and Starbucks type charging centres, you go to the coffee shop and charge your car.


You're right Trev. On the news yesterday we have the first in the UK only electric service/fuel station near Braintree and guess what it has a Costa...........








						UK’s first electric-only car charging station opens for business
					

The first of over planned locations.




					www.theverge.com
				




My wife pointed out - I don't want to spend half an hour at a service station waiting for car to be charged! Normally when we go on a long journey we stop to fill up with fuel; perhaps use toilets and then go. Don't want to be hanging around those places. I suppose as technology get's on top of charging the time it takes will come down - a bit like mobile phones which used to take all day to charge and now take perhaps half an hour or so. It was interesting to see at the back of this site  away from main forecourt there were 6 Tesla charging points - I don't know much about them but have noticed Tesla's don't seem to be on them very long?


----------



## trevskoda

Very few tesla cars here, mainly Nissan/VW and BMW.


----------



## colinm

I see that several companies involved with Hydrogen have got together, I still think this is the answer for motorhomes and other large/heavy vehicles needing long ranges.
Hydrogen power: Firms join forces in bid to lower costs - BBC News


----------



## oppy

As a youngster we had trolley busses, or silent death as my dad called them, and during a short spell of unemployment I got a temporary job as a milkman that came with an electric vehicle, so have we progressed ?????????????? A friend of ours ( a rather posh one !!) has an electric Jag and he can't even visit relatives in Cornwall without an overnight stop en route, our 11 year old Kia diesel Ce ed will do it on less than a tank full. We have friends and family down there and generally only fill up for our return journey. Not having read the 14 previous pages this is probably a repeat of much that has already been said, but I just wonder how environmentally friendly the manufacturing process is in this ' save the planet' crusade


----------



## Tookey

oppy said:


> As a youngster we had trolley busses, or silent death as my dad called them, and during a short spell of unemployment I got a temporary job as a milkman that came with an electric vehicle, so have we progressed ?????????????? A friend of ours ( a rather posh one !!) has an electric Jag and he can't even visit relatives in Cornwall without an overnight stop en route, our 11 year old Kia diesel Ce ed will do it on less than a tank full. We have friends and family down there and generally only fill up for our return journey. Not having read the 14 previous pages this is probably a repeat of much that has already been said, but I just wonder how environmentally friendly the manufacturing process is in this ' save the planet' crusade


The consequences of mining and manufacturing and overall 'green's impact' is still debatable but what isn't is that millions of people (plus flora and fauna) are breathing CE exhaust fumes everyday and we are going to reduce and then eradicate that. It is arguable that that alone should be enough of an incentive.


----------



## trevskoda

Some of the top boffins say its to late for a reversal and we are doomed.


----------



## colinm

oppy said:


> A friend of ours ( a rather posh one !!) has an electric Jag and he can't even visit relatives in Cornwall without an overnight stop en route, our 11 year old Kia diesel Ce ed will do it on less than a tank full. We have friends and family down there and generally only fill up for our return journey.



A friend of mine has property in Cornwall and regularly drives down there in his Tesla. Considering the choice of vehicles he has to do the journey that tells me all I need to know.
BTW, he has been known to do the return journey in one day, if business needs.
p.s. that's around 300 miles each way.


----------



## Robmac

colinmd said:


> A friend of mine has property in Cornwall and regularly drives down there in his Tesla. Considering the choice of vehicles he has to do the journey that tells me all I need to know.
> BTW, he has been known to do the return journey in one day, if business needs.
> p.s. that's around 300 miles each way.



Problem is Colin that a Tesla is out of reach for many people and is quite a bit lighter than a motorhome which is what the thread is about.

Apologies if that is out of context as I haven't read a lot of posts in this thread.


----------



## colinm

Robmac said:


> Problem is Colin that a Tesla is out of reach for many people and is quite a bit lighter than a motorhome which is what the thread is about.
> 
> Apologies if that is out of context as I haven't read a lot of posts in this thread.


My post was in direct reply to one about driving cars to Cornwall. As I post just above, I don't believe BEV's are practical for Motorhomes, at least not at present, and I don't see any battery improvements in the pipeline that will change that.


----------



## Derekoak

This article is about the governments own expert's predictions. Saying if we invest now we will pretty much be paid back by savings by 2050.
The point is it assumes a massive role for hydrogen. Once you have 10,000 massive offshore wind turbines there is enough  energy to not care about differences in efficiency and storage is largely hydrogen stores from windy periods










						Ending UK’s climate emissions ‘affordable’, say official advisers
					

CCC recommendation includes half of cars being electric by 2030, gas boilers phased out and 10,000 wind turbines




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## mark61

The additional weight is only a paperwork/legal problem.
What is now based on a 3.5 tonne van will have to be based on the 5+ tonne version. Extra 1500 KG of battery should be ok for 500 miles   
Day drive to Morocco still out the window though.


----------



## Makzine

mark61 said:


> Day drive to Morocco still out the window though.



But surely if driving to Morocco the solar panels on the roof should top up as you drive   ☀


----------



## Asterix

Heres the answer you've all been looking for,couple of bolts through the roof and you're ready to go!









						Siemens Sees a Future for Electric Trucks Powered by Overhead Lines
					

Germany's first 'eHighway' truck route has opened along a stretch of the autobahn. Siemens spoke to GTM about the potential to expand and commercialize the technology.




					www.greentechmedia.com


----------



## trevskoda

Makzine said:


> But surely if driving to Morocco the solar panels on the roof should top up as you drive   ☀


Would not give a fraction of whats required.


----------



## trevskoda

Asterix said:


> Heres the answer you've all been looking for,couple of bolts through the roof and you're ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens Sees a Future for Electric Trucks Powered by Overhead Lines
> 
> 
> Germany's first 'eHighway' truck route has opened along a stretch of the autobahn. Siemens spoke to GTM about the potential to expand and commercialize the technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greentechmedia.com


Had that in the fifties, called trolleybuses, big problem was they could not divert round a road problem and required a truck to pull them to other lines, also all this electric has to come from some other place, the energy used to build turbines is greater than the return, so not green at all.


----------



## maingate

Asterix said:


> Heres the answer you've all been looking for,couple of bolts through the roof and you're ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens Sees a Future for Electric Trucks Powered by Overhead Lines
> 
> 
> Germany's first 'eHighway' truck route has opened along a stretch of the autobahn. Siemens spoke to GTM about the potential to expand and commercialize the technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greentechmedia.com



Siemens are about to get into Hydrogen in a big way. I got this from my Grandson who works for them and hopes to be part of it.


----------



## Derekoak

Asterix said:


> Heres the answer you've all been looking for,couple of bolts through the roof and you're ready to go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens Sees a Future for Electric Trucks Powered by Overhead Lines
> 
> 
> Germany's first 'eHighway' truck route has opened along a stretch of the autobahn. Siemens spoke to GTM about the potential to expand and commercialize the technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greentechmedia.com


I mentioned that earlier. @Asterix Thanks for finding a link. @trevskoda  the difference with the 50's is that the trucks have a battery to get off route to their final destination, from memory 30 mile battery range. They would have no problem with a normal road problem. They would divert and recharge when back on the overhead lines.


----------



## trevskoda

Derekoak said:


> I mentioned that earlier. @Asterix Thanks for finding a link. @trevskoda  the difference with the 50's is that the trucks have a battery to get off route to their final destination, from memory 30 mile battery range. They would have no problem with a normal road problem. They would divert and recharge when back on the overhead lines.


Not much good in country side, folk these days would object to cables all over the place


----------



## Derekoak

I think the idea is the first lane of most motorways would be electrified with overhead cables. Beyond that local delivery hub lorries would be different technology.
 Some folk these days object to windfarms all over the place, so the plan seems to put them out of sight, way off the coast. Motorways are massive disruptions already, a few wires will make little difference there. Perhaps there will need to be special facilities by bridges to stop idiots poking the wires with long rods.


----------



## maingate

On the contrary, I would make long metal poles available.

It's what Darwin would have wanted.


----------



## Derekoak

maingate said:


> On the contrary, I would make long metal poles available.
> 
> It's what Darwin would have wanted.


I nearly said that but thought it too shocking.


----------



## Robmac

maingate said:


> On the contrary, I would make long metal poles available.
> 
> It's what Darwin would have wanted.



A simple live button would do Jim.

Clearly labelled 'Do NOT press'.


----------



## Martin P

What we really need is a way of storing energy, maybe as a liquid for example, a way of storing it , maybe a tank then places on the highway where it would be a matter of minutes to fill your tank with said liquid. 
Worlds been over run with born again "we're all doomed ders"
Looks like we are going to be stuck with technology which is more expensive and less convenient. 
Im sticking with the beautiful, exciting, poetry of the internal combustion engine. One of mans all time best inventions


----------



## Asterix

Martin P said:


> What we really need is a way of storing energy, maybe as a liquid for example, a way of storing it , maybe a tank then places on the highway where it would be a matter of minutes to fill your tank with said liquid.
> Worlds been over run with born again "we're all doomed ders"
> Looks like we are going to be stuck with technology which is more expensive and less convenient.
> Im sticking with the beautiful, exciting, poetry of the internal combustion engine. One of mans all time best inventions



Resistance to change is nothing new,eg when we went from horses to steam,the horse owners/breeders said it'll never happen but it did. Then we moved from steam to electric cars but the technology wasn't up to scratch so we went with the internal combustion engine as a poor alternative. We are finally after over a hundred years now ready to take the big leap back to electric,but now have the advancements to make it work. By the time its fully rolled out we'll both be dead and buried and the nay sayers will just be another footnote in the history books,along with the IC engines.


----------



## mark61

Asterix said:


> Resistance to change is nothing new,eg when we went from horses to steam,the horse owners/breeders said it'll never happen but it did. Then we moved from steam to electric cars but the technology wasn't up to scratch so we went with the internal combustion engine as a poor alternative. We are finally after over a hundred years now ready to take the big leap back to electric,but now have the advancements to make it work. By the time its fully rolled out we'll both be dead and buried and the nay sayers will just be another footnote in the history books,along with the IC engines.



There was probably space for both electric and IC motors to exist. It was not by accident electric motors were pushed virtually out of the place, we are now playing catch up.


----------



## Asterix

mark61 said:


> There was probably space for both electric and IC motors to exist. It was not by accident electric motors were pushed virtually out of the place, we are now playing catch up.



I think it would have been recognised early on that electric was superior in every way,had we had the tech we have now I doubt noisy,smelly,high maintenance ices would've got anywhere. Water under the bridge now...let's just get it done! (Where have I heard that before)


----------



## trevskoda

By the time electric lands on us full time i if alive will be past driving and it will be on my son or daughters head to take me out or visit me in the old farts home.


----------



## Asterix

trevskoda said:


> By the time electric lands on us full time i if alive will be past driving and it will be on my son or daughters head to take me out or visit me in the old farts home.



By the time you're too old to drive we'll have autonomous cars to take you wherever you want,just give it directions by dribbling on the dashboard.


----------



## colinm

Asterix said:


> By the time you're too old to drive we'll have autonomous cars to take you wherever you want,just give it directions by dribbling on the dashboard.


Ah yes, it will sample the DNA and know your usual routes, if in doubt will lock the doors and take you home.


----------



## mark61

Asterix said:


> I think it would have been recognised early on that electric was superior in every way,had we had the tech we have now I doubt noisy,smelly,high maintenance ices would've got anywhere. Water under the bridge now...let's just get it done! (Where have I heard that before)



I think even back at the beginning of motors, it was recognised there was many situations where electric was superior. 
The "not by accident" was in relation to the lobbying of the petrochemical industry.


----------



## Phantom

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/...lectric-car-plans-are-far-removed-reality?amp


----------



## Martin P

You just can't beat the sound of a proper engine.
I've got a name for electric vehicles and people who drive them.
Whiners
Yeah


----------



## Ellendale

trevskoda said:


> Here we go.View attachment 89718


Forgive my ignorance but don't most homes use natural gas as in British Gas? I believe it is a different type of gas to the LPG used in my car. I have attached an extract from an emissions test. When I asked the tester what the readings actually meant in layman's terms he said "so little it's practically zero, apart from the h2O coming out of your exhaust!"


colinmd said:


> Even the companies promoting LPG conversions don't claim zero emissions, and for good reason, whilst they are very low emissions they can't achieve zero, so you have a totally unique car.
> BTW , the MOT doesn't check co2 or particulates, and it's Hydrogen that only produces water on combustion.


Forgive my ignorance but don't most homes use natural gas as in British Gas? I believe it is a different type of gas to the LPG used in my car. I have attached an extract from an emissions test. When I asked the tester what the readings actually meant in layman's terms he said "so little it's practically zero, apart from the h2O coming out of your exhaust!" So my reply was based on this info. Apologies if it's wrong.


----------



## colinm

Ellendale said:


> Forgive my ignorance but don't most homes use natural gas as in British Gas? I believe it is a different type of gas to the LPG used in my car. I have attached an extract from an emissions test. When I asked the tester what the readings actually meant in layman's terms he said "so little it's practically zero, apart from the h2O coming out of your exhaust!"
> 
> Forgive my ignorance but don't most homes use natural gas as in British Gas? I believe it is a different type of gas to the LPG used in my car. I have attached an extract from an emissions test. When I asked the tester what the readings actually meant in layman's terms he said "so little it's practically zero, apart from the h2O coming out of your exhaust!" So my reply was based on this info. Apologies if it's wrong.


The MOT test covers CO (carbon monoxide) and HC (hydrocarbons), it doesn't cover co2.
Just got out the cert for our 54 reg Suzi 4x4, whilst the CO on your van is roughly 1/10th, your HC is over 20 times higher. I don't know why your MOT tester thinks only water is coming out the exhaust.


----------



## trevskoda

colinmd said:


> The MOT test covers CO (carbon monoxide) and HC (hydrocarbons), it doesn't cover co2.
> Just got out the cert for our 54 reg Suzi 4x4, whilst the CO on your van is roughly 1/10th, your HC is over 20 times higher. I don't know why your MOT tester thinks only water is coming out the exhaust.


Bet he would not drink it.


----------



## trevskoda

The facts are very simple, there is no such thing as clean energy, it all is dirty at some point in its life, making it storing it and using it.


----------



## UFO

Hyundai have a hydrogen fuel-cell electric truck.  The 190kw fuel cell can haul a 36 tonne truck-trailer combination up to 400km and refuel in 8 minutes.  In the pipeline is a fuel cell with more hauling power and a range of 1,000km.




__





						Hyundai XCIENT Fuel Cell Heads to Europe for Commercial Use
					






					www.hyundai.news
				




The Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell, compact SUV, can travel 594 kilometres on a full tank and refuelling takes just 3-5 minutes.  The price is £53,105 which includes part funding from the HyFive Project.

If a motorhome is between a truck and a car then based on the above the prospects look good.  Still some way to go with price and refuelling infrasturcture but things are moving in the right direction.


----------



## Wully

Here’s a decent video on electric motorhomes. Think the narrator needs too loosen his belt a notch he seems to get a bit exited.


----------



## trevskoda

Some folk drive 500 miles in one stroke, thank heavens its a gas oven, where on earth would the power come from for an induction electric oven, also no solar panels on the roof to charge the 12v batteries for lights and tv etc, they require a wild camper in their factories to tell them how its done.


----------



## molly 2

I have visions  of WC , stuck in  odd places  carrying  large generators


----------



## Wully

Think the most I’ve done in a day was 700 miles Glasgow to euro Disney using the tunnel. I think we’re getting there with batteries but any electric motorhome even the smaller ones are gonna struggle with the 3.5 ton


----------



## Tookey

Well if this is the attitude then my toddlers future van will probably be diesel! Electric 2030 my ass


BBC News - Coal mine go-ahead 'undermines climate summit'








						Coal mine go-ahead 'undermines climate summit'
					

The UK's push to secure a deal over fossil fuels is being undercut by a decision to allow a new coal mine, MPs warn.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## wildebus

Wully said:


> Think the most I’ve done in a day was 700 miles Glasgow to euro Disney using the tunnel. I think we’re getting there with batteries but any electric motorhome even the smaller ones are gonna struggle with the 3.5 ton


And forget wilding as you won't have any B2B systems fitted to recharge after a night off-grid.

If you drop the Diesel Engine, you'll need to fit a Generator instead


----------



## trevskoda

wildebus said:


> And forget wilding as you won't have any B2B systems fitted to recharge after a night off-grid.
> 
> If you drop the Diesel Engine, you'll need to fit a Generator instead


Solar panels all over the van, or a hamster on a wheel and dynamo.


----------



## Pedalman

We should all just buy the newest diesel / petrol van we can afford in 2029.  The problem will be if the government tax IC engines off the road.
I certainly couldn't afford even the  lowest priced EV car and when they do get old enough to afford one the batteries will be knackered. 
Unless batteries get much cheaper and longer lasting , 25yrs+,  I think the EV's will decimate the older vehicle secondhand market . 
Can you imagine the secondhand value of a 10 yr old EV if you need a £5,000 battery two years after you bought it ?


----------



## Martin P

My prediction.
As we get closer to electrification date the take up will be very low.
The govt will apply pressure. Demonstrations in support of diesel and petrol will take place. A political party will take on the cause . The govt will be forced to back down


----------



## Pedalman

Martin P said:


> My prediction.
> As we get closer to electrification date the take up will be very low.
> The govt will apply pressure. Demonstrations in support of diesel and petrol will take place. A political party will take on the cause . The govt will be forced to back down


I agree with you. The cost of EVs will still not be affordable by 2030 and the charging points can not be fitted to every home, impossible in  flats and terraced houses.   I think the government is saying 2030 to impress this summit in Glasgow, but they will have to back down for the reasons you mentioned.
Also the cost of a charging point is said to be £850.


----------



## SquirrellCook

If the idea of using small nuclear generators in shopping complexes is taken up to charge them is taken up, we will be more worried about the pollution and deaths from the terrorist attack on the shopping complex. Or the failure of the Chinese made version.


----------



## colinm

Pedalman said:


> I agree with you. The cost of EVs will still not be affordable by 2030 and the charging points can not be fitted to every home ,impossible in  flats and terraced houses.   I think the government is saying 2030 to impress this summit in Glasgow, but they will have to back down for the reasons you mentioned.


At the moment the big car companies are only producing expensive EV's, meanwhile china has several companies producing decent quality EV's at prices comparable to ICE cars, in the next few years there will be a levelling up of prices or the legacy car manufacturers will be out of business.
Already diesels are disappearing out of model ranges, and more manufacturers are being found to be cheating emissions, Toyota have just had to pay a $180 million fine in US.
Meanwhile VW has started it's change to EV's with the first plants halting all ICE production, IIRC there plan is all European plants will be EV in the next four years.
Tell me, have you got a petrol station at your house? I know I haven't, but I do have electricity, meanwhile I suspect every supermarket is planning to install charge points.


----------



## Martin P

I think fuel stations will probably be around until 2050 as cars produced 2029 will still be around plus all the classic cars and motorcycles. I am sure the internal combustion engine will be superceded but I don't think it will be by battery powered vehicles. I think they are the new betamax or laserdisc


----------



## Red Dwarf

JLR announced they will be only manufacturing electric vehicles from 2025! I suspect the electric revolution will be upon us sooner that we might imagine....


----------



## Martin P

Time will tell


----------



## mickymost

Martin P said:


> Time will tell




Providing its an Electric Clock


----------



## fergie1061

Pedalman said:


> We should all just buy the newest diesel / petrol van we can afford in 2029.  The problem will be if the government tax IC engines off the road.
> I certainly couldn't afford even the  lowest priced EV car and when they do get old enough to afford one the batteries will be knackered.
> Unless batteries get much cheaper and longer lasting , 25yrs+,  I think the EV's will decimate the older vehicle secondhand market .
> Can you imagine the secondhand value of a 10 yr old EV if you need a £5,000 battery two years after you bought it ?


Totally agree, I mean it just doesn't balance out the infrastructure needed in say north Scotland or even rural Scotland would be massive. I mean we can't even get reliable broadband, or decent roadstructure so what chance of enough charge points?? Nil I'd say. Unless the government do a hugely massive installation of power points and, and this is the night provide huge cash support to change petrol or diesel to EV powered units and I don't see that do you?? No didn't think so


----------



## Martin P

Something I have noticed over on Facebook. Whenever an advert comes up for an electric vehicle the majority, and I mean around 90% of the comments are very much anti electric vehicles as a whole. So it seems I am not alone, most people just don't want them


----------



## Fisherman

Martin P said:


> Something I have noticed over on Facebook. Whenever an advert comes up for an electric vehicle the majority, and I mean around 90% of the comments are very much anti electric vehicles as a whole. So it seems I am not alone, most people just don't want them



Martin, I got my first mobile phone in 1995. At the time all I got were negative comments from just about everyone. It was so basic it could only make calls nothing else. And it was so large it used to stick out of my jacket when placed in my inside pocket, I got it for business reasons. To make a call cost 50p a minute, and the phone cost around £300 to buy. Now all those that said why would anyone want a mobile phone have one. Right now I am posting this on an iPhone, which can do things we could only have dreamt of back in 1995.
Technology will improve, the cars will get cheaper,  the infra structure will develop and when we are all history hardly anyone will be driving fossil fuelled vehicles of any sort. You actually won’t even be driving anymore, steering wheels and pedals being things you go to see in museums by then. And people will marvel how we managed to navigate large vehicles in tight roads full of other road users, with so few accidents.
Try reading the response from the end oh the 19th century when the horseless carriage was ridiculed, and we were told that it would never replace the horse and cart, and no one wanted them then either.


----------



## trevskoda

Horses have zero road tax but the emissions are quite bad.


----------



## Simonfrench

In 10 years it will all be different. If you have a diesel you will have to stay in the woods! None will be allowed in towns and cities.


----------



## colinm

I remember the first time gf had to use the Renault Zoe EV pool car, she wasn't happy and had argued against using it. After first trip she was hooked and would always request it from that day forward.


----------



## mark61

Fisherman said:


> Martin, I got my first mobile phone in 1995. At the time all I got were negative comments from just about everyone. It was so basic it could only make calls nothing else. And it was so large it used to stick out of my jacket when placed in my inside pocket, I got it for business reasons. To make a call cost 50p a minute, and the phone cost around £300 to buy. Now all those that said why would anyone want a mobile phone have one. Right now I am posting this on an iPhone, which can do things we could only have dreamt of back in 1995.
> Technology will improve, the cars will get cheaper,  the infra structure will develop and when we are all history hardly anyone will be driving fossil fuelled vehicles of any sort. You actually won’t even be driving anymore, steering wheels and pedals being things you go to see in museums by then. And people will marvel how we managed to navigate large vehicles in tight roads full of other road users, with so few accidents.
> Try reading the response from the end oh the 19th century when the horseless carriage was ridiculed, and we were told that it would never replace the horse and cart, and no one wanted them then either.



All those things you mention, we have wanted, or at least have been led to believe we have wanted. Virtually no one wants an electric motor, we are constantly being hectored into it. Thus much of the reluctance, rightfully so.

"The futures bright, the future's orange." haha, got mobile in 94, still got the same number and my voicemail is the one I recorded in 94 too. Hows that for not moving on.


----------



## trevskoda

colinm said:


> I remember the first time gf had to use the Renault Zoe EV pool car, she wasn't happy and had argued against using it. After first trip she was hooked and would always request it from that day forward.


Girls love electric buzzy things, so im told.


----------



## davef

There seems to be 2 major problems for the uptake of EVs.
Firstly is pollution and degradation of the environment in producing the elements necessary - the lithium and cobalt for the batteries, and the rare earth metals for the motors. The extent of this is staggering, but its not happening in the West so currently considered acceptable. The same rare earth metals are used in wind turbines, so they are hardly green. See "The Planet of the Humans" by Michael Mann to see how bad this is.
The second is electric supply - the UK doesn't have the vast surplus capacity that would be needed for the switch to EVs, and isn't planning the necessary increase. Instead it is rolling out smart meters so demand can be controlled by variable pricing according to demand. That and the lack of charging points will price out most people from being able to use EVs. That I think is the government plan - to drastically reduce the number of cars on the road, and the miles they travel.


----------



## trevskoda

Salt/silicate batteries are on their way to which there are loads of, by the time it all gets sorted most of us will not be driving or be here.


----------



## colinm

davef said:


> There seems to be 2 major problems for the uptake of EVs.
> Firstly is pollution and degradation of the environment in producing the elements necessary - the lithium and cobalt for the batteries, and the rare earth metals for the motors. The extent of this is staggering, but its not happening in the West so currently considered acceptable. The same rare earth metals are used in wind turbines, so they are hardly green. See "The Planet of the Humans" by Michael Mann to see how bad this is.
> The second is electric supply - the UK doesn't have the vast surplus capacity that would be needed for the switch to EVs, and isn't planning the necessary increase. Instead it is rolling out smart meters so demand can be controlled by variable pricing according to demand. That and the lack of charging points will price out most people from being able to use EVs. That I think is the government plan - to drastically reduce the number of cars on the road, and the miles they travel.


Lithium is a fairly common element, the UK has large reserves, if it continues to be used in batteries then in time it will be recycled.
Cobalt is fast disappearing from batteries, but is continued to be used for petroleum production.
Now compare that to oil extraction, it's a joke to try and say this is somehow better for the environment, but as you say most of it is somewhere else in the world, 'out of sight, out of mind'.
The electric supply is an interesting one, did you know that some EV owners are already helping the grid cope with peaks in demand?


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> All those things you mention, we have wanted, or at least have been led to believe we have wanted. Virtually no one wants an electric motor, we are constantly being hectored into it. Thus much of the reluctance, rightfully so.
> 
> "The futures bright, the future's orange." haha, got mobile in 94, still got the same number and my voicemail is the one I recorded in 94 too. Hows that for not moving on.



Mark, in 1995 hardly anyone wanted a mobile phone. Why, well they were expensive, the infra structure was poor with poor coverage, they were large bulky items with large batteries, they only lasted 8rs before needing to be recharged. Many kept them switched off due to this, only turning them on as required. Ring any bells mark. People only wanted them when they got cheaper, had better infra structure, when technology improved and when they could have them turned on all day without having to charge them or carry a spare battery.

Look at the example I gave with the first horseless carriages, nobody wanted them either. Comments such as, what happens if you run out of petrol, how will they manage to get stations were can get petrol everywhere, what happens if they break down, how will we get them moved, who will repair them. These were all obstacles that had to be overcome and they were.

I decided not to replace my diesel C220 this year. It’s 3 years old. I have decided to wait 4-5 years then I will go electric. Why. Well by then it’s reckoned they will be 10-15%  cheaper than a diesel, their range will have increased by 50-75%, charging times will be reduced significantly, the infra structure will have improved enormously , they will be cheaper to fuel, maintain, and already are better to drive than diesels.

We can go on discussing this infinitum Mark, (which I won’t) but I guarantee you that by 2050 when we are pushing up daiseys, hardly anyone will be driving anything, you will be a passenger telling your non fossil fuelled mode of  transport were you wish to travel and enjoying the view. I don’t want to sound arrogant, but that’s what will happen, no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks. Technology is advancing incredibly, who knows were we will be by then, but two things are certain non fossil fuelled  cars will be the norm, and there will still be Luddites like your good self Mark telling us that man cannot inhabit Mars.


----------



## Fisherman

You may well laugh, you auld Luddite Mark.
If we make it to 2050, I will show you these posts, from an iPhone implant, whilst being taken out for a day at the seaside in a driverless hydrogen fuel cell bus by my carers.


----------



## mark61

Fisherman said:


> Mark, in 1995 hardly anyone wanted a mobile phone. Why, well they were expensive, the infra structure was poor with poor coverage, they were large bulky items with large batteries, they only lasted 8rs before needing to be recharged. Many kept them switched off due to this, only turning them on as required. Ring any bells mark. People only wanted them when they got cheaper, had better infra structure, when technology improved and when they could have them turned on all day without having to charge them or carry a spare battery.
> 
> Look at the example I gave with the first horseless carriages, nobody wanted them either. Comments such as, what happens if you run out of petrol, how will they manage to get stations were can get petrol everywhere, what happens if they break down, how will we get them moved, who will repair them. These were all obstacles that had to be overcome and they were.
> 
> I decided not to replace my diesel C220 this year. It’s 3 years old. I have decided to wait 4-5 years then I will go electric. Why. Well by then it’s reckoned they will be 10-15%  cheaper than a diesel, their range will have increased by 50-75%, charging times will be reduced significantly, the infra structure will have improved enormously , they will be cheaper to fuel, maintain, and already are better to drive than diesels.
> 
> We can go on discussing this infinitum Mark, (which I won’t) but I guarantee you that by 2050 when we are pushing up daiseys, hardly anyone will be driving anything, you will be a passenger telling your non fossil fuelled mode of  transport were you wish to travel and enjoying the view. I don’t want to sound arrogant, but that’s what will happen, no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks. Technology is advancing incredibly, who knows were we will be by then, but two things are certain non fossil fuelled  cars will be the norm, and there will still be Luddites like your good self Mark telling us that man cannot inhabit Mars.



 I've been saying for years we won't be driving about, as we do these days, in 2050. Keep up   

I recently decided not to get a new van and wait and see what happens, but I've changed my mind again,  time to get back to MH layouts.


----------



## davef

colinm said:


> Lithium is a fairly common element, the UK has large reserves, if it continues to be used in batteries then in time it will be recycled.
> Cobalt is fast disappearing from batteries, but is continued to be used for petroleum production.
> Now compare that to oil extraction, it's a joke to try and say this is somehow better for the environment, but as you say most of it is somewhere else in the world, 'out of sight, out of mind'.
> The electric supply is an interesting one, did you know that some EV owners are already helping the grid cope with peaks in demand?


I agree that EV owners can help buffer peak demand supply by feeding in power at such times then recharging at low demand times. However have you considered that any battery has a finite number of times it can be charged and discharged, and each time it is used to buffer demand it is degrading the battery. Also, though it can be used to smooth demand it doesn't help produce the total amount of power that would be needed for a general switch to EVs.


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> I've been saying for years we won't be driving about, as we do these days, in 2050. Keep up
> 
> I recently decided not to get a new van and wait and see what happens, but I've changed my mind again,  time to get back to MH layouts.



I have much better things to do than trying to keep up with your contradictory Luddite posts Mark.  Like having my molars removed by someone who dislikes me, or watching Partick Thistle being thrashed 10-0 by our arch rivals in the first division life’s far to short for such engagements.


----------



## mark61

Fisherman said:


> You may well laugh, you auld Luddite Mark.
> If we make it to 2050, I will show you these posts, from an iPhone implant, whilst being taken out for a day at the seaside in a driverless hydrogen fuel cell bus by my carers.



We may well think we have been taken to the seaside, but no, we'll be in a room that can replicate any seaside in the world, the wind, the smell, the whole lot, including the damp trunks


----------



## Nesting Zombie

I think that most of us can remember the Electric Milkfloats that was around in the 70s.
It’s hard to believe that it HASN'T gone more in the Bigger, Heavier Electric vehicle direction by now.
I’m still not convinced that it’s quite as environmentally friendly as it’s made out to be, Better YES, but With the Battery components, Asids, & Whatever, Then when you plug them in to recharge the power has to come from somewhere I don’t think we are quite there yet to be Reliably &  viably ‘Green’ in this regard yet


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> We may well think we have been taken to the seaside, but no, we'll be in a room that can replicate any seaside in the world, the wind, the smell, the whole lot, including the damp trunks



I reckon from your posts Mark, in your case it’s happening right now in your world


----------



## mry716

I think the future for electric vehicles may be better than anticipated..........see...............


			https://www.uk-car-discount.co.uk/news/5-minute-full-car-battery-charging


----------



## mark61

Nesting Zombie said:


> I think that most of us can remember the Electric Milkfloats that was around in the 70s.
> It’s hard to believe that it HASN'T gone more in the Bigger, Heavier Electric vehicle direction by now.
> I’m still not convinced that it’s quite as environmentally friendly as it’s made out to be, Better YES, but With the Battery components, Asids, & Whatever, Then when you plug them in to recharge the power has to come from somewhere I don’t think we are quite there yet to be Reliably &  viably ‘Green’ in this regard yet



Funny you should mention milk floats.
Being the luddite I am, I still get milk delivered, in those funny old bottles.  About a year ago, the blooming milky dumped his old float and got a Sprinter, not an electric one though, it's diesel. Thats my green virtue signalling out the window


----------



## Fazerloz

I bet the EV owners in Texas haven't been very impressed lately.


----------



## colinm

davef said:


> I agree that EV owners can help buffer peak demand supply by feeding in power at such times then recharging at low demand times. However have you considered that any battery has a finite number of times it can be charged and discharged, and each time it is used to buffer demand it is degrading the battery. Also, though it can be used to smooth demand it doesn't help produce the total amount of power that would be needed for a general switch to EVs.


That's the thing most people have yet to get their head around, a car spends 95% of it's time sitting there doing SFA, start thinking of it as you way to reduce costs by actively using the battery to either store energy from PV's or taking off peak electricity, and it works a lot harder for it's living, yes batteries will degrade more, but so far they are proving to last much longer than expected, add in lowering prices, and recycling and it all makes sense.


----------



## Derekoak

davef said:


> There seems to be 2 major problems for the uptake of EVs.
> Firstly is pollution and degradation of the environment in producing the elements necessary - the lithium and cobalt for the batteries, and the rare earth metals for the motors. The extent of this is staggering, but its not happening in the West so currently considered acceptable. The same rare earth metals are used in wind turbines, so they are hardly green. See "The Planet of the Humans" by Michael Mann to see how bad this is.
> The second is electric supply - the UK doesn't have the vast surplus capacity that would be needed for the switch to EVs, and isn't planning the necessary increase. Instead it is rolling out smart meters so demand can be controlled by variable pricing according to demand. That and the lack of charging points will price out most people from being able to use EVs. That I think is the government plan - to drastically reduce the number of cars on the road, and the miles they travel.


Colin has answered your first point but your 2nd suggests that the government are not rolling out enormous offshore wind farms. It was in the news that the Queen got 9 billion for selling rights to large areas of the seabed. There are moves afoot even though they cannot be seen. Now wind is the cheapest way to make electricity things are taking off.  There are many experiments in storing energy from when the wind is strong. To use when the wind is low. Many are in use now electric car batteries are just one way.
It is not just transport we need more electric for, we  need to keep houses warm in winter without using gas too. Even that, a much bigger job, can be done if we have the will.


----------



## colinm

Fazerloz said:


> I bet the EV owners in Texas haven't been very impressed lately.


Nor have the owners of ICE cars who can't fill up due to lack of electric.


----------



## Derekoak

Fazerloz said:


> I bet the EV owners in Texas haven't been very impressed lately.


The Texas weather is due to climate change.  That emphasises that we must do something about it now.


----------



## Red Dwarf

I heard of a 1978 Lincoln Continental for sale with a goosed engine. I contacted the place in Wales that converts vehicles to electric, thinking it would be a big nice comfortable car,  the quote for conversion was, wait for it, £70,000!
Who wouldn’t want a green Lincoln Continental?


----------



## Fisherman

Final post on this.

Only a few months  ago we were being told we have never managed to develop a vaccine against the SARS corona virus, and that we may never be able to. Well currently we have 7 vaccines being used worldwide.
Wars, politics, and anything that threatens our existence brings out the very best and the worst in us. Look at the advancements made during WW2, look what was done by the US in order to get men in the moon before 1970. To this day humanity is much further advanced than we would be without WW2 and the Cold War.
I am an avid reader of modern history and what amazes and perplexes me is where we are now, and how we got there so rapidly. If in 1950, you had told someone that a man would land on the moon in just 19 years, you would have been locked up in some asylum. Look at what we got from the space war, synthetic technologies, PCBs which revolutionised our world, improvements in healthcare, transistor radios, the list goes on. When we have to do something, we tend to do it.
Sorry if I am going in a bit here, but all of the obstacles preventing the use of EPVs will be overcome. And we may sooner than we think not even require batteries. But if we do they will be smaller, lighter, far more powerful, charge faster and will last the life time of the vehicle, and they will be recyclable. *Please don’t apply current technology to what’s required, because as we have all witnessed in our lives, particularly in the past 20 years or so, technology is advancing exponentially at an ever increasing rate, and will continue to do so for many years to come.*

For those concerned about how we will produce the power to facilitate this.
Currently we only harness less than one percent of the power provided by the sun and other natural events.
This technology is improving and will continue to do so.
Finally currently we produce nuclear power through splitting atoms, creating a risk of radiation, and spending vast sums decommissioning nuclear plants when they are finished. At some point this century most scientists believe that this will be replaced by nuclear fusion. A massive game changer. These power stations will cost one tenth the cost of a nuclear plant, produce 100 times more power. They will last for over a hundred years, and will cost buttons to demolish, and rebuild. Unless reincarnation is factual, we wont see most of this. But we will see it in its early stages.


----------



## trevskoda

mark61 said:


> We may well think we have been taken to the seaside, but no, we'll be in a room that can replicate any seaside in the world, the wind, the smell, the whole lot, including the damp trunks


Cannot see any beach or smell it, damp trunks yes.


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> Funny you should mention milk floats.
> Being the luddite I am, I still get milk delivered, in those funny old bottles.  About a year ago, the blooming milky dumped his old float and got a Sprinter, not an electric one though, it's diesel. Thats my green virtue signalling out the window



Well Mark we at least agree on one thing my friend.
You are a Luddite, but I actually like luddites.
Because they are all eventually proven wrong Mark.
Thats why we call them luddites


----------



## Martin P

All that is fine but.
I will be buying a motorcycle soon, would I consider an electric one. No way
Will my next van be electric. God no.
Would I buy an electric motorhome. You got to be kidding.
Would I straight swap my 2.3 Saab convertible for an electric noddy car. Yeah right
I will be a petrol head till my dying day.
Using an electric vehicle is more expensive and more hassle.
"Oh. Better not use the aircon , we might not make it home"
Frankly I am glad I am not at an age where this is going to affect me. The future looks horrible


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> All that is fine but.
> I will be buying a motorcycle soon, would I consider an electric one. No way
> Will my next van be electric. God no.
> Would I buy an electric motorhome. You got to be kidding.
> Would I straight swap my 2.3 Saab convertible for an electric noddy car. Yeah right
> I will be a petrol head till my dying day.
> Using an electric vehicle is more expensive and more hassle.
> "Oh. Better not use the aircon , we might not make it home"
> Frankly I am glad I am not at an age where this is going to affect me. The future looks horrible


Electric cars pay back is 7 years against what fuel you burn.


----------



## Martin P

My Saab cost me 1200 quid and has worked without fault for 8 years.
How is an electric car going to be cheaper


----------



## Robmac

Martin P said:


> All that is fine but.
> I will be buying a motorcycle soon, would I consider an electric one. No way
> Will my next van be electric. God no.
> Would I buy an electric motorhome. You got to be kidding.
> Would I straight swap my 2.3 Saab convertible for an electric noddy car. Yeah right
> I will be a petrol head till my dying day.
> Using an electric vehicle is more expensive and more hassle.
> "Oh. Better not use the aircon , we might not make it home"
> Frankly I am glad I am not at an age where this is going to affect me. The future looks horrible



Pretty much same as me in all of those points Martin. Couldn't agree more.

(By the way my package arrived this morning )


----------



## colinm

Martin P said:


> All that is fine but.
> I will be buying a motorcycle soon, would I consider an electric one. No way
> Will my next van be electric. God no.
> Would I buy an electric motorhome. You got to be kidding.
> Would I straight swap my 2.3 Saab convertible for an electric noddy car. Yeah right
> I will be a petrol head till my dying day.
> Using an electric vehicle is more expensive and more hassle.
> "Oh. Better not use the aircon , we might not make it home"
> Frankly I am glad I am not at an age where this is going to affect me. The future looks horrible


You should have watched 'the motorcycle show' where 'the worlds grumpiest motorcyclist' rode a Zero, him and Henry Cole rode his Kawa and Zero to café, they both love ICE bikes, they where both turned into fans of Zero.


----------



## Fazerloz

Derekoak said:


> The Texas weather is due to climate change.  That emphasises that we must do something about it now.



You state that like it's a proven fact and it simply is not. Its just an opinion.


----------



## Robmac

Martin P said:


> My Saab cost me 1200 quid and has worked without fault for 8 years.
> How is an electric car going to be cheaper



Our little Peugot 206 is a 2006 model Martin.

It does a gazillion miles to the gallon, tax is 20 quid a year and we can leave it wherever we want and not worry about it getting scratched or nicked. I've offered to buy Julie a new one and she says no way, and I'm coming around to her way of thinking.

Obviously the bike is a different matter because they're more important and huge piles of cash should be lavished on them.


----------



## Robmac

colinm said:


> You should have watched 'the motorcycle show' where 'the worlds grumpiest motorcyclist' rode a Zero, him and Henry Cole rode his Kawa and Zero to café, they both love ICE bikes, they where both turned into fans of Zero.



It's a different matter for Henry and co though Colin. Yes an electric bike would be fun to ride, but would Henry give up his collection of petrol motorcycles?

I very much doubt it, he may buy an electric bike for occasional use, but his first love is old British bikes and that will never change.


----------



## mark61

Fisherman said:


> Well Mark we at least agree on one thing my friend.
> You are a Luddite, but I actually like luddites.
> Because they are all eventually proven wrong Mark.
> Thats why we call them luddites


 
What precisely  am I going to be proven wrong on?
Drop the strawman arguments   
The way the term "luddite" is often used, misrepresents the luddites. 
So, I don't mind being called a luddite in the slightest.
All is good with me.


----------



## Martin P

Thanks Rob.
I been in love with the petrol engine since the age of 10 when I first stripped a Suffolk Punch lawnmower engine. I thought the con rod and the crankshaft were just about the most beautiful thing thing in the world. Putting the engine on a home made go cart and trundling around the village( yes times were different) was sheer happiness
Electric motors just smell of burning wire to me


----------



## Martin P

Yeah Henry Cole thought the electric bike ok but more of a novelty. He would never give up his proper bikes


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> What precisely  am I going to be proven wrong on?
> Drop the strawman arguments
> The way the term "luddite" is often used, misrepresents the luddites.
> So, I don't mind being called a luddite in the slightest.
> All is good with me.



Sorry Mark I thought wrong was your middle name, maybe I’m the Luddite here, I mean luddites never knew they were luddites until it was to  late.


----------



## mark61

haha, writing a post about being a luddite, and me robot vacuum starts up


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> haha, writing a post about being a luddite, and me robot vacuum starts up



No way to talk about your wife Mark


----------



## Robmac

If the Luddites had been successful we may not be in this mess today.

I'm gonna wreck a motorhome (someone else's).


----------



## Robmac

Fisherman said:


> No way to talk about your wife Mark



There's a joke in the making there bill but I'm not going there!


----------



## mark61

I'll have you know my robo vac has they/them pronouns!

No gendered speech in this house.


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## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> My Saab cost me 1200 quid and has worked without fault for 8 years.
> How is an electric car going to be cheaper


Cost of fuel , my mate worked out all the fig and cost before he bought a vw electric golf


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## Derekoak

Fazerloz said:


> You state that like it's a proven fact and it simply is not. Its just an opinion.


Ok It is a scentific prediction from before the event, based on computer modelling. That is not fact, but much much more than opinion. I apologise for grabbing your attention by emphasising my case. If the general public listens to science's careful language they dismiss what the science almost knows.
 By the modelling rapid arctic heating destabilises the coldness concentrated at the north pole and oscillations of cold reach much further south than normal. That is happening in Texas. This modelling predicts much of the weather it is more than a simple guess.


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> My Saab cost me 1200 quid and has worked without fault for 8 years.
> How is an electric car going to be cheaper


£50 a week on fuel is £18.000 plus used in 8 years,folk forget about fuel.


----------



## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> Thanks Rob.
> I been in love with the petrol engine since the age of 10 when I first stripped a Suffolk Punch lawnmower engine. I thought the con rod and the crankshaft were just about the most beautiful thing thing in the world. Putting the engine on a home made go cart and trundling around the village( yes times were different) was sheer happiness
> Electric motors just smell of burning wire to me


How did you get ins at that age never mind a licence.


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## Fazerloz

colinm said:


> Nor have the owners of ICE cars who can't fill up due to lack of electric.



News reports say it may take several stops to find fuel. Only 13% of Texas gas stations closed.


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## Fisherman

Robmac said:


> There's a joke in the making there bill but I'm not going there!


Coward Rob   

Be a man like the rest of us do as you are told.


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## Fazerloz

Derekoak said:


> Ok It is a scentific prediction from before the event, based on computer modelling. That is not fact, but much much more than opinion. I apologise for grabbing your attention by emphasising my case. If the general public listens to science's careful language they dismiss what the science almost knows.
> By the modelling rapid arctic heating destabilises the coldness concentrated at the north pole and oscillations of cold reach much further south than normal. That is happening in Texas. This modelling predicts much of the weather it is more than a simple guess.



And that all depends on models used, as other models can be used to predict the opposite. Results depending on who is doing the funding.  Was the 25 inches of snowfall in Texas in 1929 due to global warming. Extremes have always happened.


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## Fisherman

Fazerloz said:


> You state that like it's a proven fact and it simply is not. Its just an opinion.



As an ardent believer in global warming (Cards on the table) I have to agree with you Faze.
It does our cause no good pinning individual events on global warming.
You have to look at the bigger picture.
This event has happened before the industrial revolution.
Its caused by winds in the stratosphere moving further south than normal from the Artic, dragging down cold air further south than normal.
Probably not to do with global warming, but who knows.


----------



## Fazerloz

Fisherman said:


> As an ardent believer in global warming (Cards on the table) I have to agree with you Faze.
> It does our cause no good pinning individual events on global warming.
> You have to look at the bigger picture.
> This event has happened before the industrial revolution.
> Its caused by winds in the stratosphere moving further south than normal from the Artic, dragging down cold air further south than normal.
> Probably not to do with global warming, but who knows.



We have discussed global warming at great lengths before and the cynic in me still believes it to be money driven.


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## Derekoak

Fazerloz said:


> We have discussed global warming at great lengths before and the cynic in me still believes it to be money driven.


Oh it is. The money driving it is the money big oil makes. So we agree on that. 
There are so many new weather events occurring. More and more will happen in the future. One event cannot be proved. A thousand events are not proof. How long will you wait? The climate will continue for better or worse while we dither.


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## colinm

Robmac said:


> It's a different matter for Henry and co though Colin. Yes an electric bike would be fun to ride, but would Henry give up his collection of petrol motorcycles?
> 
> I very much doubt it, he may buy an electric bike for occasional use, but his first love is old British bikes and that will never change.


Yep he would never give up his old bikes, I'd like to think nor would I, but a electric bike is there to be riden, an old bike is there to be sworn at when it refuses to start. So maybe I'll sell my old bikes on to some mug with more money than sense.
Maybe I'll buy a new Saab, oh that's not going to happen, the engineers where so stuck in the past they destroyed the company.


----------



## Fazerloz

Derekoak said:


> Oh it is. The money driving it is the money big oil makes. So we agree on that.
> There are so many new weather events occurring. More and more will happen in the future. One event cannot be proved. A thousand events are not proof. How long will you wait? The climate will continue for better or worse while we dither.



Why would  oil be the driving force to prove global warming.


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## mark61

colinm said:


> Yep he would never give up his old bikes, I'd like to think nor would I, but a electric bike is there to be riden, an old bike is there to be sworn at when it refuses to start. So maybe I'll sell my old bikes on to some mug with more money than sense.
> *Maybe I'll buy a new Saab, oh that's not going to happen, the engineers where so stuck in the past they destroyed the company.*



 Certainly wasn't their engineers.


----------



## colinm

Fazerloz said:


> News reports say it may take several stops to find fuel. Only 13% of Texas gas stations closed.


The areas without power had no gas stations open, now the refineries are shut and having to restart. All drivers have been affected, but some in different ways.
Power outages forcing Texas gas stations to close (houstonchronicle.com) 
Don’t panic-buy as Texas gas stations regain electricity in coming days, experts caution (dallasnews.com) 
Gas Stations Still Dark as Texas Emerges From Freeze - Bloomberg


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## Fisherman

You know I agree with all of you you who say EPVs are to expensive, the infra structure is not sufficient, the battery range is to short, and the batteries take to long to charge. That’s why right now I would not by an EPV. As for EP Motorhomes well I don’t think there will be many on the road in my lifetime. They will come years after EP cars. But were I differ, is I reckon technology will improve and quicker than many may think. I would not buy an EP Motorhome in 2029 either Martin, but if I was buying one in 2045 I may well do so. But sadly I won’t be.


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## colinm

mark61 said:


> Certainly wasn't their engineers.


It came down to a bunch of stubborn engineers in management who didn't 'see the writing on the wall', they ignored GM and totally reengineered the Vectra chassis, the end result was a company bleeding money at a rate GM decided was unsustainable.


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## mark61

colinm said:


> It came down to a bunch of stubborn engineers in management who didn't 'see the writing on the wall', they ignored GM and totally reengineered the Vectra chassis, the end result was a company bleeding money at a rate GM decided was unsustainable.



They didn't consider a rebadged Vectra a Saab, very true, and they were right.
Anyway, I know my Saab history pretty well, unfortunately the writing was on the wall before GM, and it's certainly not down to engineers.


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## Martin P

trevskoda said:


> £50 a week on fuel is £18.000 plus used in 8 years,folk forget about fuel.


We don't run the car much. More like £50 per month.


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## Martin P

I believe the demise of Saab sits squarely with a poor sales team


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## mark61

Fisherman said:


> Final post on this.
> 
> Only a few months  ago we were being told we have never managed to develop a vaccine against the SARS corona virus, and that we may never be able to. Well currently we have 7 vaccines being used worldwide.
> Wars, politics, and anything that threatens our existence brings out the very best and the worst in us. Look at the advancements made during WW2, look what was done by the US in order to get men in the moon before 1970. To this day humanity is much further advanced than we would be without WW2 and the Cold War.
> I am an avid reader of modern history and what amazes and perplexes me is where we are now, and how we got there so rapidly. If in 1950, you had told someone that a man would land on the moon in just 19 years, you would have been locked up in some asylum. Look at what we got from the space war, synthetic technologies, PCBs which revolutionised our world, improvements in healthcare, transistor radios, the list goes on. When we have to do something, we tend to do it.
> Sorry if I am going in a bit here, but all of the obstacles preventing the use of EPVs will be overcome. And we may sooner than we think not even require batteries. But if we do they will be smaller, lighter, far more powerful, charge faster and will last the life time of the vehicle, and they will be recyclable. *Please don’t apply current technology to what’s required, because as we have all witnessed in our lives, particularly in the past 20 years or so, technology is advancing exponentially at an ever increasing rate, and will continue to do so for many years to come.*
> 
> For those concerned about how we will produce the power to facilitate this.
> Currently we only harness less than one percent of the power provided by the sun and other natural events.
> This technology is improving and will continue to do so.
> Finally currently we produce nuclear power through splitting atoms, creating a risk of radiation, and spending vast sums decommissioning nuclear plants when they are finished. At some point this century most scientists believe that this will be replaced by nuclear fusion. A massive game changer. These power stations will cost one tenth the cost of a nuclear plant, produce 100 times more power. They will last for over a hundred years, and will cost buttons to demolish, and rebuild. Unless reincarnation is factual, we wont see most of this. But we will see it in its early stages.



We all know this, you are not saying anything we don’t all know. Where here has anyone said technology won’t improve things?
It’s all a phoney argument.

The fact remains EV’s do meet the requirements of many today, and they certainly don’t meet the needs of MH’s and wild campers. People feel they are (and they are) being coerced into a mode of transport that doesn’t suite them, and fear is the tool that is being used. Hardly anyone gets an EV because they are better or more convenient. 

Just because an electric van doesn’t suite my needs, doesn’t mean I’m against EV's. There is no reason for all, or most at least, of public transport in cities/towns to be electric, in fact getting rid of electric trolley buses was a massive con.


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## trevskoda

Martin P said:


> We don't run the car much. More like £50 per month.


Not worth having then,if doing under 12 thu miles a year its cheaper to use a taxi, my car i have had over two years and clocked up 40.000 miles which is low for me, i used to do that in a year.


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## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> We all know this, you are not saying anything we don’t all know. Where here has anyone said technology won’t improve things?
> It’s all a phoney argument.
> 
> The fact remains EV’s do meet the requirements of many today, and they certainly don’t meet the needs of MH’s and wild campers. People feel they are (and they are) being coerced into a mode of transport that doesn’t suite them, and fear is the tool that is being used. Hardly anyone gets an EV because they are better or more convenient.
> 
> Just because an electric van doesn’t suite my needs, doesn’t mean I’m against EV's. There is no reason for all, or most at least, of public transport in cities/towns to be electric, in fact getting rid of electric trolley buses was a massive con.



Mark if I was to start a post with “we all know this “ then what’s the point of having a debate. I agree that most people know what I posted, and the very same can be said for your own posts. But I would never reply to you in such a manner. It’s how we interpret what you know that matters, not what we know and don’t know, or more to the point what we think we know.
You can present exactly the same facts to 20 different people and get 20 different results. Also I have read posts on here were I and others have learnt something, I am sure that someone may learn something from what you and I and others have posted. But I have no intention or belief that anything I say will alter yours or anyone’s opinions.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> Not worth having then,if doing under 12 thu miles a year its cheaper to use a taxi, my car i have had over two years and clocked up 40.000 miles which is low for me, i used to do that in a year.



Haven't got a clue how you work that one out Trev!

My wifes car costs about £50 a month to run including tax, insurance and fuel, I reckon you could multiply that by at least 4 if we went everywhere by taxi, probably more.


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## Martin P

trevskoda said:


> Not worth having then,if doing under 12 thu miles a year its cheaper to use a taxi, my car i have had over two years and clocked up 40.000 miles which is low for me, i used to do that in a year.


You old wind up merchant you!
We have it because it suits us. We pays our money and makes our choice.


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## Fisherman

trevskoda said:


> Not worth having then,if doing under 12 thu miles a year its cheaper to use a taxi, my car i have had over two years and clocked up 40.000 miles which is low for me, i used to do that in a year.



Your not a taxi driver by any chance Trev.


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## mark61

Fisherman said:


> Mark if I was to start a post with “we all know this “ then what’s the point of having a debate. I agree that most people know what I posted, and the very same can be said for your own posts. But I would never reply to you in such a manner. It’s how we interpret what you know that matters, not what we know and don’t know, or more to the point what we think we know.
> You can present exactly the same facts to 20 different people and get 20 different results. Also I have read posts on here were I and others have learnt something, I am sure that someone may learn something from what you and I and others have posted. But I have no intention or belief that anything I say will alter yours or anyone’s opinions.


 Fair enough.


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## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> Fair enough.



No it’s not


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## Boris7

Sorry I’m between MH sites just now,
 keep thinking I’ve posted on here but seems I’ve posted on there.

All electric MH’s ain’t on the books just now, but Ford say they will release an all electric Transit next year with a 200 mile + range, so getting closer, but how much?

Reckon a few years or maybe decades before they are viable


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## Fisherman

Boris7 said:


> Sorry I’m between MH sites just now,
> keep thinking I’ve posted on here but seems I’ve posted on there.
> 
> All electric MH’s ain’t on the books just now, but Ford say they will release an all electric Transit next year with a 200 mile + range, so getting closer, but how much?
> 
> Reckon a few years or maybe decades before they are viable



Yes Boris I to am very sceptical about the technology being up to scratch for all electric Motorhomers for 2030. Cars I reckon will be possible, even better than fossil fuel cars by then, but not commercial vans. I hope that the government will be prepared to change the date for these vehicles if what’s available is not fit for purpose. We have to note that in a commercial setting these vehicles do high mileage, and play a significant part in our economy. But eventually EP motorhomes will become the norm, but by 2030, I am sceptical to say the least.


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## Bailey62

TrickyDicky said:


> The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles.
> As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover.
> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


I’ve been driving electric for 5 years, admittedly not a cheap version but I can get 200 - 250 miles range. Given that most MH have a similar engine size and consumption to a large family car I imagine a range over 200+ miles should be possible. What is needed is a wider distribution of charge points. In my car there are sufficient around large towns and motorways to support business use. With charge times of 30 mins or less I usually find the car is ready to go before I’ve had a coffe, used the loo etc.After 200 miles I am ready for a break so no inconvenience. On holiday is different, we go to remote places, don’t seat on campsites and don’t need a service station for coffee. So at least campsites should provide EV charging and not just for those staying on them. Even better would be Norwegian style service points with EV charging as well as waste disposal.


TrickyDicky said:


> The UK government is seemingly bringing forward to 2030 their ban of petrol or deisel engines in new vehicles.
> As far as I'm aware there's been no reporting of how this new greener world will be achievable with the types of vehicles we drive and the distances we cover.
> Or are only cars involved in this changeover with commercial vehicles continuing as now with, mainly, deisel engines.
> Does anyone know?


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Haven't got a clue how you work that one out Trev!
> 
> My wifes car costs about £50 a month to run including tax, insurance and fuel, I reckon you could multiply that by at least 4 if we went everywhere by taxi, probably more.


I burn that in fuel and some times double in a week, then there is the tax ins wear and tear on parts tyres etc.


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## GeoffL

Besides being personally unaffordable, for me the biggest issue with BEV mohos is the charging requirement. Every pitch will need a minimum 30A supply (=7kW for charging and 1A for domestic) and campsites will need to be able to supply every pitch at that rate continuously. Currently, they typically run at no more than 16A and since usage is intermittent, the supply into the site can be much less than the number of pitches x 16A. Consider a large campsite like Hendra in Newquay, which has 14 touring fields with an average of 50 or so pitches per field. That's 700 pitches at 7kW per pitch, or about 5MW (>20,000A) needed. Even a 5-van site will need 150A (35kW), which is more than many farms have available. In short, I suspect that the infrastructure won't be able to cope and also suspect that the cost of upgrading not only the actual site but the transmission lines to that site will be more than most campsites can bear.


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## trevskoda

GeoffL said:


> Besides being personally unaffordable, for me the biggest issue with BEV mohos is the charging requirement. Every pitch will need a minimum 30A supply (=7kW for charging and 1A for domestic) and campsites will need to be able to supply every pitch at that rate continuously. Currently, they typically run at no more than 16A and since usage is intermittent, the supply into the site can be much less than the number of pitches x 16A. Consider a large campsite like Hendra in Newquay, which has 14 touring fields with an average of 50 or so pitches per field. That's 700 pitches at 7kW per pitch, or about 5MW (>20,000A) needed. Even a 5-van site will need 150A (35kW), which is more than many farms have available. In short, I suspect that the infrastructure won't be able to cope and also suspect that the cost of upgrading not only the actual site but the transmission lines to that site will be more than most campsites can bear.


Charge your van at a garage or charge point, campsite power will not require to change.


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## Polar Bear

In 2030 we will still be able to buy a diesel-powered motorhome as long as it is a hybrid. If when running on diesel it charges the battery and returns more than 50% of the mpg we get now out of our diesel-only vans it' shouldn't be a problem?


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> I burn that in fuel and some times double in a week, then there is the tax ins wear and tear on parts tyres etc.



I did say that included tax, insurance and fuel Trev.

If you burn that or even double that in a week, then you are clearly doing more than 12k miles a year. Your argument was that if you do less than 12k a year taxi's would be cheaper.

I'll give you an example. On a Friday (when not locked down) Julie gives me a lift to the pub - this costs less than a pound. At the end of the night I get a taxi home, this costs about £12. If we didn't have a car that would be £12 each way. I usually do the same on Saturday and Sunday, so just those 3 days could potentially cost £72 if we didn't have a car - or potentially £6 if we did!

That is without considering all of the trips to the shops, visiting friend and family, the odd school run for the grandkids etc. etc. Not considering the inconvenience of forever ringing taxis and they not being available.

Sorry, but your argument just does not stack up.


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## Fazerloz

trevskoda said:


> Charge your van at a garage or charge point, campsite power will not require to change.


Nearly 35,000,000 cars, vans and motor homes on UK roads , It's going to need a lot of coffee shops for charging. I don't think the world can supply that much coffee.


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## mark61

Fazerloz said:


> Nearly 35,000,000 cars, vans and motor homes on UK roads , It's going to need a lot of coffee shops for charging. I don't think the world can supply that much coffee.


 Plenty of rain forrest left to turn into coffee plantations. 
You might need to bring your own cup though.


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## Owlhouse

The push for EV’s is to satisfy the environmental lobby. When you look at the doomsday prophecies from the start of the climate change saga, be it an ice age coming then warming, none of them have happened. The planet is warming naturally from the little ice age although no statistical warming for around the last twenty years. Sea levels are rising but again no real change in the rate for the last century. The list of doom and gloom events goes on and on, the failure to happen also goes on and on. 
EV’s will happen but for now the tech is just not there. The fantastic new battery is just around the corner, as it has been for a long time. Just remember that you have to recycle the EV battery at some stage, a Tesla battery is half a ton! Imagine the size/weight for a van? 
The discussion about this will go on and on without end as everyone has their own views and beliefs. I know I cannot change the way people think and I would not want to force my views on them. I have formed my knowledge from research and my own background experience, others will have done it their own way. 
This is my last post on this subject as all we are doing is going round in circles. 
Stay safe - already booking sites in the hope we are going to be able to get out there!


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## Fazerloz

mark61 said:


> Plenty of rain forrest left to turn into coffee plantations.
> You might need to bring your own cup though.



But what about when the rest of the world goes electric there wont be enough forest then.   I suppose they will have to drink tea.


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## GeoffL

trevskoda said:


> Charge your van at a garage or charge point, campsite power will not require to change.


However, the infrastructure will. For that, I suspect that the infrastructure is inadequate to cope with total conversion to EVs even without converting mohos to EVs and the speed at which authorities move, I suspect 'they' won't be able to beef up the infrastructure to cope with increased demand as older ICEVs are retired.

Unless the law and/or battery technology changes, the weight of batteries will reduce available payload by at least 450kg with ~1,000kg reduction being necessary for full-sized vans with a decent range. AFAICT, PHGVs aren't affected but the government is considering expanding the ban to include HGVs and currently in discussion with the haulage industry about this.


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## GeoffL

I could be about to eat my own words as I've just discovered something that might be an answer, not just for motorhomes but for all EVs. The linked YouTube video describes Aluminium/Air fuel cells. These have close to the same effective energy density as petroleum fuels and, since electric motors tend to be lighter than diesel engines, might even result in increased payload. The anode will need to be changed every 1000km or so and you'll need to top up the electrolyte every couple of hundred miles, but this should be on par timewise with stops for petrol or diesel and no requirement for widespread infrastructure upgrades. The channel posting the video tends to deal with upcoming technology rather than stuff that's market-ready, but it's nonetheless interesting IMO.


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## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> I did say that included tax, insurance and fuel Trev.
> 
> If you burn that or even double that in a week, then you are clearly doing more than 12k miles a year. Your argument was that if you do less than 12k a year taxi's would be cheaper.
> 
> I'll give you an example. On a Friday (when not locked down) Julie gives me a lift to the pub - this costs less than a pound. At the end of the night I get a taxi home, this costs about £12. If we didn't have a car that would be £12 each way. I usually do the same on Saturday and Sunday, so just those 3 days could potentially cost £72 if we didn't have a car - or potentially £6 if we did!
> 
> That is without considering all of the trips to the shops, visiting friend and family, the odd school run for the grandkids etc. etc. Not considering the inconvenience of forever ringing taxis and they not being available.
> 
> Sorry, but your argument just does not stack up.


I read it all on the money program, i have not looked into it in detail, you say £12 for a taxi, well £6 here from my house to Belfast which is just over 6 miles, think there robbing you when piss-d on they way home.


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## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> I read it all on the money program, i have not looked into it in detail, you say £12 for a taxi, well £6 here from my house to Belfast which is just over 6 miles, think there robbing you when piss-d on they way home.



Too many factors for such a blanket statement Trev.

If I bought a Lamborghini for £200,000 then did 10 miles a week, then yes it would be cheaper to get taxi's after depreciation is considered.  I paid my daughter 2 grand for my wifes car 7 years ago, and that was doing my daughter a favour.

That works out a further £23 per month but at least I still have something to show for it which is perfectly useable.

As for getting ripped off, I reckon you are ripping off your taxi drivers! NI taxi rates are £3.80 for the first mile plus £1.60 for each additional mile so a 6 mile journey should be £11.80 and that's daytime rates.


----------



## mark61

Robmac said:


> Too many factors for such a blanket statement Trev.
> 
> If I bought a Lamborghini for £200,000 then did 10 miles a week, then yes it would be cheaper to get taxi's after depreciation is considered.  I paid my daughter 2 grand for my wifes car 7 years ago, and that was doing my daughter a favour.
> 
> That works out a further £23 per month but at least I still have something to show for it which is perfectly useable.
> 
> As for getting ripped off, I reckon you are ripping off your taxi drivers! NI taxi rates are £3.80 for the first mile plus £1.60 for each additional mile so a 6 mile journey should be £11.80 and that's daytime rates.


 Trev forgot to mention it was 1984 when he last got a taxi for £6, that included tip.


----------



## Robmac

mark61 said:


> Trev forgot to mention it was 1984 when he last got a taxi for £6, that included tip.



(probably on the sauce again Mark, you know what he's like)


----------



## trevskoda

Robmac said:


> Too many factors for such a blanket statement Trev.
> 
> If I bought a Lamborghini for £200,000 then did 10 miles a week, then yes it would be cheaper to get taxi's after depreciation is considered.  I paid my daughter 2 grand for my wifes car 7 years ago, and that was doing my daughter a favour.
> 
> That works out a further £23 per month but at least I still have something to show for it which is perfectly useable.
> 
> As for getting ripped off, I reckon you are ripping off your taxi drivers! NI taxi rates are £3.80 for the first mile plus £1.60 for each additional mile so a 6 mile journey should be £11.80 and that's daytime rates.


Seems they dont take tokens or 10 bob notes on buses anymore either.


----------



## Brockley

To think that it was only four years ago that John. B. Goodenough (yes his real name) along with his team at the university of Texas published a paper on solid state batteries. Lots to read about it and him, he’s also credited for his involvement in developing RAM.

Everything went a bit quiet as no one at the time was interested in developing his ‘glass battery’. It’s claimed that a wrist watch fitted with a battery of this chemistry would last a whole lifetime!

Stumbled on this on YouTube, seems his battery is now attracting developers. Battery powered motorhomes anyone?


----------

