# Early "Change Engine Oil" message



## RSD7a (Oct 25, 2020)

I've owned my 2018 Citroen Relay PVC for just over a year. It was serviced at 10k miles when purchased and now on 14k miles. I'm now receiving a "Change Engine Oil" message (in words) and flashing red oil light which persists for 5 or so miles and then goes away. Oil level is showing 1 'notch' down from full on the dash. Official service interval is 2 years or 20k miles, so by rights I have another year/16k miles to go. What do you think is going on and what would you do now? Advice welcome!
(Don't post much, but visit often)
Thanks


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## SquirrellCook (Oct 25, 2020)

I'd never leave engine oil in for more than a year, it's cheap insurance.  Change the filter whilst your at it.


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## Wooie1958 (Oct 25, 2020)

If you are capable of doing yourself then a quick oil and filter change which does not cost a lot of money will not do any harm what so ever.

Don`t forget to reset the service indicator as well.

Both of these tasks are very very easy to do and shouodn`t take more than 30 minutes or so to complete, a bit longer if you give the old oil more time to drain.


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## colinm (Oct 25, 2020)

AFAIK the oil change is dependant on usage and conditions, 20,000 is considered by the manufacturers for vans doing large mileage's.
Change the oil.
p.s. prior to the current oil change light set up the recommendation from some (if not all) manufacturers was a annual oil change for low mileage motors, often referred to as 'arduous conditions' in the handbook.


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## maingate (Oct 25, 2020)

Just reset the service interval light, there should be instructions online somewhere. If you are doing an average of 4K miles a year then change the oil every 2 years. About this time of year is best to change it if you use it less over Winter.


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## 2cv (Oct 25, 2020)

After changing the oil and filter, to reset the warning this may help.






I suppose there is a chance that when it was serviced the reset was overlooked.


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## Deneb (Oct 25, 2020)

The oil change interval is not necessarily the same as the service interval on current vans. They are equipped with a software oil degradation counter, which monitors various driving conditions and will trigger if it calculates that the oil has degraded beyond the point where it is no longer capable of protecting the engine. That can happen as a result of the number and type of DPF regenerations (which can dilute the engine oil with diesel) or other circumstances.

Having said that, I have seen reports of the system being triggered by faulty sensors on occasion.

If the Citroen handbook contains the same information as the Ducato book though, it explains that 2 years or X miles is the absolute maximum oil change interval, and that the oil change is not scheduled as per other service items, but must be changed as and when notified by a message on the instrument display, if that occurs sooner then the service interval. It also recommends annual oil changes under certain conditions. Iveco, who jointly manufacture the Fiat multijet engines, go further and state that the oil must be changed annually for vehicles travelling less than 12,500 miles per year, since lack of regular use can be harder on the oil than driving.


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## harrow (Oct 25, 2020)

RSD7a said:


> I've owned my 2018 Citroen Relay PVC for just over a year. It was serviced at 10k miles when purchased and now on 14k miles. I'm now receiving a "Change Engine Oil" message (in words) and flashing red oil light which persists for 5 or so miles and then goes away. Oil level is showing 1 'notch' down from full on the dash. Official service interval is 2 years or 20k miles, so by rights I have another year/16k miles to go. What do you think is going on and what would you do now? Advice welcome!
> (Don't post much, but visit often)
> Thanks



I think you need good advice about the service light, (ask a citroen department) maybe the service light was not reset when the oil was changed ?

Fully agree with SquirrellCook and changing oil.

However oil quality has improved since the old days of _mineral 20w50 sludgemaster_ that used to end up like tar in the engine.

As an aside I have been impressed how much cheaper 20 litre containers of quality oil work out rather than buying it in 5 litre containers.


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## witzend (Oct 25, 2020)

2cv said:


> After changing the oil and filter, to reset the warning this may help.


I didn't see the red lite go out did You ?


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## Deneb (Oct 25, 2020)

harrow said:


> I think you need good advice about the service light, (ask a citroen department) maybe the service light was not reset when the oil was changed ?
> 
> However oil quality has improved since the old days of _mineral 20w50 sludgemaster_ that used to end up like tar in the engine.



I'd certainly be getting the dealer to check the sensor before assuming that the oil needs changing. Sooner rather than later though, as the warning will put the van into limp mode eventually.

The main improvement in modern quality is that it is chosen to reduce drag (and therefore emissions) as much or more than by ability to protect the engine. Oil recommendation in European markets is generally lower viscocity than for the identical vehicle sold elsewhere, due to the fines imposed on manufacturers for exceeding averaged fleet emissions targets in the EEC.

The industry generally allows for up to 9% dilution by fuel in diesel engines, at which point it barely meets the ACEA base classification and is little better than your old mineral sludgemaster!


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## trevskoda (Oct 25, 2020)

maingate said:


> Just reset the service interval light, there should be instructions online somewhere. If you are doing an average of 4K miles a year then change the oil every 2 years. About this time of year is best to change it if you use it less over Winter.


Change it every year as leaving old oil holding acids/water is not good, look for frothy or dirty oil filler cap, if as so change more often and drive faster on m/ways.


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## Deneb (Oct 25, 2020)

From the 2017-19 Citroen Relay driver's handbook:


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## Deneb (Oct 25, 2020)

Just to add, you say that the van was serviced when you bought it, but was it serviced by a Citroen dealer? If not, the garage may not have realised, or may not have had the equipment, to connect diagnostic software and reset the degradation counter. In that case the van won't "know" that the oil has been changed and assumes the condition of the oil based on it having not been changed since new, or a previous service when it was correctly reset.

This is a separate system to the service reset function.


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## jagmanx (Oct 25, 2020)

Oil a bit like underpants.
Change every year...even if you think you don't need to.!


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## Deleted member 51254 (Oct 25, 2020)

RSD7a said:


> I've owned my 2018 Citroen Relay PVC for just over a year. It was serviced at 10k miles when purchased and now on 14k miles. I'm now receiving a "Change Engine Oil" message (in words) and flashing red oil light which persists for 5 or so miles and then goes away. Oil level is showing 1 'notch' down from full on the dash. Official service interval is 2 years or 20k miles, so by rights I have another year/16k miles to go. What do you think is going on and what would you do now? Advice welcome!
> (Don't post much, but visit often)
> Thanks


I checked with the Peugeot/Citroen dealer. It's 2 years or 30000 miles for first service. Because some vans are hanging around waiting to be converted, the light can come in early. Just turn ignition on with foot on brake and throttle pedal depressed and wait a few seconds it will reset. Some Moho dealers offer to change oil and do a hab service for 400 quid. Some people have more money than sense.


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## colinm (Oct 25, 2020)

davebav50 said:


> I checked with the Peugeot/Citroen dealer. It's 2 years or 30000 miles for first service. Because some vans are hanging around waiting to be converted, the light can come in early. Just turn ignition on with foot on brake and throttle pedal depressed and wait a few seconds it will reset. Some Moho dealers offer to change oil and do a hab service for 400 quid. Some people have more money than sense.


The 'change engine oil' light, and 'service' light are not the same thing.


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## trevskoda (Oct 25, 2020)

davebav50 said:


> I checked with the Peugeot/Citroen dealer. It's 2 years or 30000 miles for first service. Because some vans are hanging around waiting to be converted, the light can come in early. Just turn ignition on with foot on brake and throttle pedal depressed and wait a few seconds it will reset. Some Moho dealers offer to change oil and do a hab service for 400 quid. Some people have more money than sense.


£400 for oil and filter, whats it run on GOLD, filter £10 , oil £16 to £20 5 ltrs, 15 min job on the driveway.


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## SquirrellCook (Oct 25, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> £400 for oil and filter, whats it run on GOLD, filter £10 , oil £16 to £20 5 ltrs, 15 min job on the driveway.


Modern engines are fussy about the oil. If you put the stuff they run on into an old engine it would kill it.


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## Aly (Oct 25, 2020)

I’ve had this message on my Ford Transit for a couple of weeks. It has 9000 on the clock and will be 2 years old in December. I just thought it was an early warning for a service in December? I’m a bit worried now!


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## Deneb (Oct 26, 2020)

davebav50 said:


> I checked with the Peugeot/Citroen dealer. It's 2 years or 30000 miles for first service. Because some vans are hanging around waiting to be converted, the light can come in early. Just turn ignition on with foot on brake and throttle pedal depressed and wait a few seconds it will reset. Some Moho dealers offer to change oil and do a hab service for 400 quid. Some people have more money than sense.


Assuming you're referring to the "Change Engine Oil" message and not the service message, it's very impressive that they can do an oil analysis over the phone and come to that conclusion with complete confidence.

If you subsequently have a warranty claim due to engine failure and examination of the diagnostic history shows that an engine oil degraded fault was logged, I bet there'd be a different story!


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## RSD7a (Oct 26, 2020)

Well, thanks for all the various suggestions. I especially enjoyed Jagmanx's underpants-based advice. There's a range of views from turn off the warning message (easy)and continue as before through to change the oil NOW. I've just spoken to the Bosch garage who services it at 10k miles just before I took delivery of the newly converted van (Devon Conversions, who are excellent btw) and he said definitely change the oil as there is a built in sensor which monitors oil condition. (He had nothing to gain from this advice as I'm nowhere near his outlet).
 I can never get through to a human at our local Citroen so-called dealership, and as I write am waiting for a promised call back to discuss the situation but I"m not holding my breath.
At the moment I'm planning to bite the bullet and do the oil and filter change. What's the worst mistake, an unnecessary oil change or a knackered engine?



Not sure if the attached photo from the Citroen manual will be readable but it shows there are two parallel systems, one for service interval and another for oil quality. 
Thanks again, all.


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## trevskoda (Oct 26, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> Modern engines are fussy about the oil. If you put the stuff they run on into an old engine it would kill it.


Total nonsense, there is a whole utube of tests on it, its just that you may be wasting money, but i can assure you i run most on semi of full sinth oils on very old engines and they have went 4 times round the clock.


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## SquirrellCook (Oct 26, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Total nonsense, there is a whole utube of tests on it, its just that you may be wasting money, but i can assure you i run most on semi of full sinth oils on very old engines and they have went 4 times round the clock.


So you'd happily run a 0W-20 in your truck?


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## Wooie1958 (Oct 26, 2020)

Here we go again


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## trevskoda (Oct 26, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> So you'd happily run a 0W-20 in your truck?


Run 0/30 in car and 5/30 or 5/40 sinth in my van, i have also ran 10/40 and 5/40 in my triumph tiger cub, dont do it the other way round as mineral oil will bugger up the exhaust analyzers etc.


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## REC (Oct 27, 2020)

We had similar issues with our Citroen relay,  to change oil warning. As we had driven quite high mileage ( Portugal) the garage suggested changing it when we had a service at just over a year.....not a Citroen dealer just the local ex council place which does Mots and the occasional service / repair for those who know about them. Charged us £40 total.


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## peter palance (Nov 1, 2020)

2cv said:


> After changing the oil and filter, to reset the warning this may help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just had my oil changed and filter, only done 1000 miles but,i change it for winter, keep smiling. deep joy stay jolly. ok.pj


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## Pedalman (Nov 1, 2020)

I would never leave the oil change to manufacturers recommended intervals, that's just a sales pitch for cheaper servicing costs.   If we want our engines to last a long time the oil needs to be clean, that is especially true with turbocharged engines where dirty oil can soon destroy the compressor / rotor bearing.


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## RSD7a (Nov 1, 2020)

peter palance said:


> just had my oil changed and filter, only done 1000 miles but,i change it for winter, keep smiling. deep joy stay jolly. ok.pj


Matter of interest .. how much were you charged?


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## RSD7a (Nov 5, 2020)

Bit the bullet and its all done. My days of crawling under vehicles are passed. 6.5 ltrs of 0w30, filter and 30 mins labour plus vat = £129 which hurt a bit. But it's done.


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 5, 2020)

Worth every penny for peace of mind and to protect your expensive toy


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## Deneb (Nov 5, 2020)

That's not too bad. Decent oil to the correct spec & filter would have cost around £70 - £80 plus the cost of a diagnostic device able to reset the oil counter.


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## RSD7a (Nov 5, 2020)

Deneb said:


> That's not too bad. Decent oil to the correct spec & filter would have cost around £70 - £80 plus the cost of a diagnostic device able to reset the oil counter.


Actually, it took them quite a while to do the reset, despite following Citroen instructions, then using a diagnostic device, then trying an alternative set of instructions which did the trick on the third attempt. So 30 mins labour charge not bad all in all.


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## trevskoda (Nov 5, 2020)

All oil comes from the same shop but with different names on it, asda dont drill for oil they buy it in.


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 6, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> All oil comes from the same shop but with different names on it, asda dont drill for oil they buy it in.



I think Tesco must make their own because there`s always plenty on the shelves


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## jagmanx (Nov 6, 2020)

sometime they try to PALM it off. Olive buys some and the male offspring of MacDougal Son of Flour !)
Some of it costs peanuts. but Mademoiselle Chanel's is jus CoCo. Other types the password is "open sesame".
Anyway we have to pay as the have us over a barrel !


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## jagmanx (Nov 6, 2020)

Is tesco's motto now "every Lidl helps " ?
In another supermarket the Valentines day flowers were late "Wait Rose".
I will go and lie down now.


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## Stevie 25 (Nov 8, 2020)

If the light is flashing for a while van will go into limp mode as it thinks something is wrong then needs diagnostics to reset it so get oil light reset ASAP it happened to me good job I was local when it happened


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## mistericeman (Nov 8, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> All oil comes from the same shop but with different names on it, asda dont drill for oil they buy it in.



It might very well all come from the same shop BUT not all of it is the same quality .

Same with fuels 

Straight from the horses mouth (well a good friends mouth with 40 odd years experience working for Shell )


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## Deneb (Nov 8, 2020)

It doesn't all come from a single shop. Some of it comes out of the ground, some of it (the majority for newer vehicles) is synthetically manufactured. It is refined or manufactured to individual producers' specifications, and each blend and add additives to create their desired products, before it even ends up in a shop.

Vehicle manufacturers also produce specifications for the performance of the oil that should be used in their engines.

So whilst I wouldn't necessarily use the specific make and type of oil recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, as that has more to do with commercial advertising and promotional agreements than being the "best" oil, it is important to establish that the oil you intend to use meets or exceeds the specification demanded by the manufacturer of the vehicle you intend to use it in. Individual oils have to be tested to gain specific approvals and for the oil producer to be able to quote the approval on the container.

So buy any old 5W30 oil for instance, and you might have no idea whether it was designed for use in diesel or petrol engines, or both, or whether it meets the specification required for the vehicle you intend to use it in. Plus modern synthetic oils intended for diesel engines are engineered to perform acceptably when diluted by up to 9% fuel, to cater for fuel post injection cycles during DPF regeneration processes. An emission control system compatible diesel oil should still perform at least as well when diluted to that level as a cheap generic off the shelf oil of the same viscocity straight out of the bottle. You can't guarantee the same of the generic oil if it ends up being diluted to a similar level, and cheaper mineral oils may not have the longevity or offer sufficient protection in all circumstances of use in modern engines.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2020)

mistericeman said:


> It might very well all come from the same shop BUT not all of it is the same quality .
> 
> Same with fuels
> 
> Straight from the horses mouth (well a good friends mouth with 40 odd years experience working for Shell )


They all fill from the same tanks in belfast.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2020)

Deneb said:


> It doesn't all come from a single shop. Some of it comes out of the ground, some of it (the majority for newer vehicles) is synthetically manufactured. It is refined or manufactured to individual producers' specifications, and each blend and add additives to create their desired products, before it even ends up in a shop.
> 
> Vehicle manufacturers also produce specifications for the performance of the oil that should be used in their engines.
> 
> ...


All the spec is on the bottle, asda have a book hanging on a chain with details for every veh.


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## SquirrellCook (Nov 8, 2020)

Deneb said:


> It doesn't all come from a single shop. Some of it comes out of the ground, some of it (the majority for newer vehicles) is synthetically manufactured. It is refined or manufactured to individual producers' specifications, and each blend and add additives to create their desired products, before it even ends up in a shop.
> 
> Vehicle manufacturers also produce specifications for the performance of the oil that should be used in their engines.
> 
> ...


It's even more complicated when the term "synthetic" is abused.  Synthetic based oils used to have a synthetic base stock to which additives were blended too.  Then they tampered with the mineral base stocks and called them synthetic too.  I used to run engines that were only just viable with life expectancy measured in hours.  I didn't take long to discover the fake oils.  Not to say these oils would have been fine for there intended road use.

To back up Deneb I used to have an ex castrol chemist work for me.  The base stocks were produced by a castrol company, but the add packs were bought in.
It doesn't always go well, one version dissolved plastic engine parts!

As for Trevor, I expect he knows about the easily available snake oil.  Production only came to an end when Ireland ran out of snakes


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## wildebus (Nov 8, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> It's even more complicated when the term "synthetic" is abused.  Synthetic based oils used to have a synthetic base stock to which additives were blended too.  Then they tampered with the mineral base stocks and called them synthetic too.  I used to run engines that were only just viable with life expectancy measured in hours.  I didn't take long to discover the fake oils.  Not to say these oils would have been fine for there intended road use.
> 
> To back up Deneb I used to have an ex castrol chemist would for me.  The base stocks were produced by a castrol company, but the add packs were bought in.
> It doesn't always go well, one version dissolved plastic engine parts!
> ...


They had to move to Leprechauns when the snakes ran out.   That is what they mean by 'Going Green'


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## Deneb (Nov 8, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> They all fill from the same tanks in belfast.


I assume you are referring to the old BP bulk storage fuel terminal?

We also have one in Hemel Hempstead. Yes, the products being sent to the distribution terminal do all come down the same pipes. What happens is that the control room are notified of the type of product coming down, and the quantity, which they divert to the required tanks. Of course there is some slight overlap between different types or blends of fuels, but when they are being sent in quantities of tens of thousands of litres at a time, slight mixing at the overlap isn't a problem.

The distribution tankers fill up from the correct tank according to the product they require, and what is being delivered to Asda or Tesco filling stations won't necessarily be the same product being delivered to Shell or BP, because each supplier will have blended and added their own additives and other ingredients before distribution.

But you are talking about petroleum products and fuel oils. Engine oil is distributed in various sized containers direct from the producer, be it Shell, Fuchs, Motul or whoever. I don't think they send a lorry full of empty plastic bottles to the Belfast terminal to fill them under a tap before taking them to Adsda and putting them on a shelf!


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## wildebus (Nov 8, 2020)

Deneb said:


> I assume you are referring to the old BP bulk storage fuel terminal?
> 
> We also have one in Hemel Hempstead. ....


Was that the one that blew up in Nov(?) 2005?  I remember the rather large bang which woke me up when I was in my house in St. Albans


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## Deneb (Nov 8, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Was that the one that blew up in Nov(?) 2005?  I remember the rather large bang which woke me up when I was in my house in St. Albans


Yes, Buncefield. I was in a hotel in Coventry on the night of the explosion, and woke up at the exact time it happened, although not aware why at that point.

I returned to work the following day and spent a week as liaison between the forward command point at the seat of the fire and incident control nearer to the motorway, which meant constantly shuttling back and forth between the two locations engulfed in smoke and with fires still burning. It was like a war zone.

Prior to that I had also found myself stationed at the terminal for various reasons on a couple of occasions, which is when I was given a tour and an explanation of how the fuel was received and delivered, by the control room manager. I spent several nights sat in the control room watching the products come in and be diverted to different tanks.


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## peter palance (Nov 8, 2020)

RSD7a said:


> Matter of interest .. how much were you charged?


£70+ vat ok not happy but its done, ok pj.


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## harrow (Nov 8, 2020)

Deneb said:


> Yes, Buncefield. I was in a hotel in Coventry on the night of the explosion, and woke up at the exact time it happened, although not aware why at that point.
> 
> I returned to work the following day and spent a week as liaison between the forward command point at the seat of the fire and incident control nearer to the motorway, which meant constantly shuttling back and forth between the two locations engulfed in smoke and with fires still burning. It was like a war zone.
> 
> ...



I heard the bang and felt the bump in Harrow.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2020)

Last time i was shotblasting the big tanks in Belfast harbor estate they strip searched me looking for metal or cigy lighters and steel on boots, we had to go in with only our blast outfit on, itchy and as rough as hell.
What i did learn from the lads there is all fuel going into tankers is the same, but drivers add a little tiny drop of a secret chem to the tanks wink wink which keeps them within the law as to there claims of special additives to make you go further and more power, its a con.


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## wildebus (Nov 8, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Last time i was shotblasting the big tanks in Belfast harbor estate they strip searched me looking for metal or cigy lighters and steel on boots, we had to go in with only our blast outfit on, itchy and as rough as hell.
> What i did learn from the lads there is all fuel going into tankers is the same, but drivers add a little tiny drop of a secret chem to the tanks wink wink which keeps them within the law as to there claims of special additives to make you go further and more power, its a con.


I think all refinaries are like that.  I had to leave any combustables in the security gatehouse when driving into them (They did allow pagers IIRC, which seemed a bit strange as they were not "safe" pagers).
Talking about fuel additives, the worse site I used to visit was Associated Octel in Merseyside. Think they used to (maybe still do?) make lead-replacement additives for Petrol. A rather unpleasant atmosphere and the Floppy Drives and CD-Drives in the computers would just stop working quite early on in their life due to contaminents in the air settling on the heads.


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## Deneb (Nov 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Last time i was shotblasting the big tanks in Belfast harbor estate they strip searched me looking for metal or cigy lighters and steel on boots, we had to go in with only our blast outfit on, itchy and as rough as hell.
> What i did learn from the lads there is all fuel going into tankers is the same, but drivers add a little tiny drop of a secret chem to the tanks wink wink which keeps them within the law as to there claims of special additives to make you go further and more power, its a con.


"Learnt from the lads". Hmm. They're probably industrial chemists who drive tankers as a hobby then! It's a good con though, because I get 32 - 33 mpg out of my van running on normal diesel, and 39 mpg using Shell V-Power. I'm not claiming it's financially cheaper due to the better mpg, because the fuel is more expensive, but it's definitely not the same fuel. I notice similar differences with my car which is recommended to use 98 RON fuel, but can run on 95 RON.


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