# SORNing your vehicle whilst on a campsite.



## The Camper (Dec 9, 2014)

Just looking at the new regs as regards to taxing my van and as I read it you can now tax it monthly – so if you are on a campsite for more than a month what’s to stop you SORNing the van and saving a few bob?

PS is SORNing a verb or have I just made it up


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## RichardHelen262 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nothing just don't decide to pop out for the day in it, besides which what are you doing on a camp site this is the wild camping forum,if you really want to save money so badly stay off  the campsite you will save more than a months road fun licence fee


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## shawbags (Dec 9, 2014)

Some full timers may want to go on a site in the winter , if you do then there is nothing stopping you from sauning you camper .


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## portiapug (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> Just looking at the new regs as regards to taxing my van and as I read it you can now tax it monthly – so if you are on a campsite for more than a month what’s to stop you SORNing the van and saving a few bob?
> 
> PS is SORNing a verb or have I just made it up



Sounds good to me. 

There are lots of wildcamping members who are currently on sites long term in Spain and Portugal. It's not a crime is it? :scared:


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## RichardHelen262 (Dec 9, 2014)

portiapug said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> There are lots of wildcamping members who are currently on sites long term in Spain and Portugal. It's not a crime is it? :scared:



Now we don't have a tax disc any more could they not sorn as soon as they have crossed the pond,for those going for a month or more ?


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## The Camper (Dec 9, 2014)

I was thinking along the lines of a few months on a Spanish campsite in winter.
Is it illegal to have no tax on your van in Spain whilst not on private land?


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## Siimplyloco (Dec 9, 2014)

helen262 said:


> Nothing just don't decide to pop out for the day in it, besides which what are you doing on a camp site this is the wild camping forum,if you really want to save money so badly stay off  the campsite you will save more than a months road fun licence fee



One ALWAYS pops up when any of us dares to mention campsites!:mad2:
John
BTW we SORN'd Hugo online when we were last in Benidorm.


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## shawbags (Dec 9, 2014)

If you parked up for a month or more sorn it.


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## st3v3 (Dec 9, 2014)

If the taxed or not status doesn't match what your insurance company think you have then you may find your insurance invalid.


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## RichardHelen262 (Dec 9, 2014)

st3v3 said:


> If the taxed or not status doesn't match what your insurance company think you have then you may find your insurance invalid.



but is tax just for driving on uk roads? or do we need it to be taxed in the uk to drive in the rest of europe ?


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## Polar Bear (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> Just looking at the new regs as regards to taxing my van and as I read it you can now tax it monthly – so if you are on a campsite for more than a month what’s to stop you SORNing the van and saving a few bob?
> 
> PS is SORNing a verb or have I just made it up



Sorry, you can not tax a vehicle monthly. What you can do is pay for it monthly if paid for on direct debit.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
If you SORN a vehicle then whatever tax is left on the vehicle will be refunded. When you want to use it on the road again you will have to re-tax it again.
So to do what you are suggesting . SORN vehicle on last day of month, DVLA will refund any tax that's left to run. T
Make new application to tax vehicle on the first of month in which you intend to use it. 
Only by SORNing for full months will you get any benefit!


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## jann (Dec 9, 2014)

To drive in another country you have to be legal in your own country.


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## izwozral (Dec 9, 2014)

helen262 said:


> but is tax just for driving on uk roads? or do we need it to be taxed in the uk to drive in the rest of europe ?




 You have to have valid tax it on Euro roads too, crap isn't it.


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## shortcircuit (Dec 9, 2014)

izwozral said:


> You have to have valid tax it on Euro roads too, crap isn't it.




So your quite happy to have an illegal vehicle on the roads in Europe.  In the event of an incident your insurance company will walk away from you big style leaving you to pick up the bills. You may not like it but it is the only sensible way is to ensure your vehicle is totally legal.


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 9, 2014)

jann said:


> To drive in another country you have to be legal in your own country.





izwozral said:


> You have to have valid tax it on Euro roads too, crap isn't it.





shortcircuit said:


> So your quite happy to have an illegal vehicle on the roads in Europe.  In the event of an incident your insurance company will walk away from you big style leaving you to pick up the bills. You may not like it but it is the only sensible way is to ensure your vehicle is totally legal.





Very true, but it seems some people are prepared to risk it just to save a couple of quid  :rolleyes2:


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## John H (Dec 9, 2014)

helen262 said:


> but is tax just for driving on uk roads? or do we need it to be taxed in the uk to drive in the rest of europe ?



EU regulations state that your vehicle must be taxed and insured according to the rules of your home country. If you SORN your vehicle whilst in Europe you will find, at the very least, your insurance is invalid. At worst, you could find your vehicle impounded. Not really worth it for saving a few pounds is it?


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## The Camper (Dec 9, 2014)

John H said:


> EU regulations state that your vehicle must be taxed and insured according to the rules of your home country. If you SORN your vehicle whilst in Europe you will find, at the very least, your insurance is invalid. At worst, you could find your vehicle impounded. Not really worth it for saving a few pounds is it?



We are talking private land as is on campsites so wouldn't be insured anyway.


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## The Camper (Dec 9, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Sorry, you can not tax a vehicle monthly. What you can do is pay for it monthly if paid for on direct debit.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
> If you SORN a vehicle then whatever tax is left on the vehicle will be refunded. When you want to use it on the road again you will have to re-tax it again.
> So to do what you are suggesting . SORN vehicle on last day of month, DVLA will refund any tax that's left to run. T
> ...



I worded it badly.
In the good old days (pre October) you needed to display a tax disc making it difficult to SORN it and then re tax it whilst abroad. 
Now as I understand it you can SORN it for a month and then tax it for a month ad infinitum, so why not use the system to work in our favour for a change.


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## John H (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> We are talking private land as is on campsites so wouldn't be insured anyway.



A campsite is classed as a public highway because the public have the right to unrestricted access to it. Thus you cannot SORN a vehicle on a campsite.


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## portiapug (Dec 9, 2014)

helen262 said:


> Now we don't have a tax disc any more could they not sorn as soon as they have crossed the pond,for those going for a month or more ?



No, thanks to EU regulations.


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## Obanboy666 (Dec 9, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Sorry, you can not tax a vehicle monthly. What you can do is pay for it monthly if paid for on direct debit.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
> If you SORN a vehicle then whatever tax is left on the vehicle will be refunded. When you want to use it on the road again you will have to re-tax it again.
> So to do what you are suggesting . SORN vehicle on last day of month, DVLA will refund any tax that's left to run. T
> ...



What an arse on, not worth the chew imho unless for a few months.


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## kenspain (Dec 9, 2014)

The police here can find out in 10 min if you motor is legal in your own country if not you will not be allowed to dive it in this country


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## Polar Bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Obanboy666 said:


> What an arse on, not worth the chew imho unless for a few months.



I concur. 
My MH has been taxed continually since I bought it and its not turned a wheel since I had my knee op! like you say not worth the trouble and you don't know when you will may have to move in an emergency?


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## Siimplyloco (Dec 9, 2014)

John H said:


> A campsite is classed as a public highway because the public have the right to unrestricted access to it. Thus you cannot SORN a vehicle on a campsite.



Are you quite sure about that John? At Hendon we were taught that The Road Traffic Act - covering most driving offences - applies to any ROAD to which the public have access. A private road can therefore come into this category, but so long as it is private land then Vehicle  Excise Duty is NOT payable. I had to know this in order to nick people.....
John


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## John H (Dec 9, 2014)

siimplyloco said:


> Are you quite sure about that John? At Hendon we were taught that The Road Traffic Act - covering most driving offences - applies to any ROAD to which the public have access. A private road can therefore come into this category, but so long as it is private land then Vehicle  Excise Duty is NOT payable. I had to know this in order to nick people.....
> John



Technically, yes it is counted as the public highway because the public have access to it. Thus you can technically be prosecuted for not taxing the vehicle and technically you can be prosecuted for bring in charge of a vehicle whilst over the legal limit for alcohol! In practice, these things are not enforced but I suspect that if there were an accident involving your vehicle on a campsite then the insurance company would love to have an easy let-out for not paying. Personally, I prefer not to save a few pounds and to have full protection but if others want to do it then that is up to them - as long as they are aware of the potential risks, however small.


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## blackbird100 (Dec 9, 2014)

*as I see it*

If once your on a camp site, then sorn it..if you do not intend to drive around the country of your stay. pop out to Aldi..etc
you will get what ever you have left of the 12 months Tax back, but loose any halfway tax,IE Mid month

The sorn states that you are not intending to use your vehicle on a public road in the UK/northern Ireland
If the vehicle is taxed it also must be insured

but if you keep the tax on it you are entitled to pop about in it,any where in the Eu..All Ved is reciprocal in the EU
so is the insurance

The Spanish have VED, but most of them don't often pay it, until they dispose or sell car/van etc. then they have to, Thats why you see so many old vehicles just dumped along side houses etc 

Some UK  insurances
 require that you must maintain the tax for it to apply (Mine Does Not)  but this is a Grey area, and if you are not using it on the road any where, then I don't see a problem
No road use means no accidents in theory, so no insurance required. However the pit fall may be when your actually parked up on a foreign campsite with fully comp cover, and something happens your fault or someone else's , and if your insurance states it must be taxed, you might find they wont pay up.

So!!  not sure if they do or don't? 
Call them and ask

Hope it helps

and Ps. this site is for every one, camping, wilding, using  campsites..


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## portiapug (Dec 9, 2014)

siimplyloco said:


> Are you quite sure about that John? At Hendon we were taught that The Road Traffic Act - covering most driving offences - applies to any ROAD to which the public have access. A private road can therefore come into this category, but so long as it is private land then Vehicle  Excise Duty is NOT payable. I had to know this in order to nick people.....
> John



Quite correct. The Police can enter a Campsite and have jurisdiction for driving offences (including using a breathalyser).


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## st3v3 (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> We are talking private land as is on campsites so wouldn't be insured anyway.



Fire and theft?


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## Obanboy666 (Dec 9, 2014)

portiapug said:


> Quite correct. The Police can enter a Campsite and have jurisdiction for driving offences (including using a breathalyser).



And why shouldn't they. What if someone hits your motorhome, imagine the nightmare scenario what could take place if they denied all responsibility and were pissed. First thing I would do is call the police to hopefully sort it out.


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## The Camper (Dec 9, 2014)

After reading the replies a quite relevant point has come to mind.

Are we insured whilst on a campsite/private land either taxed or not?

Would we have a problem claiming for fire, theft or damage to our vans. 

Perhaps one of the insurance gurus could answer.


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## yeoblade (Dec 9, 2014)

Just like I like to see all the mainland European cars over here Taxed and insured, then we should comply with their laws also. I believe after 6 months foreign vehicles should register in then UK but I have seen a couple of Polish cars near here that have been here well over that time.

I heard recently on the news that the UK borders agency have no idea when foreign cars come and go from the UK so cannot enforce it, Strange that, when a car park company using ANPR can put such systems in all over the country, to monitor parking, as we all know.


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 9, 2014)

I think you'll find that most motorhome insurance stipulates that the vehicle must be taxed at all times throughout the term of insurance , also  sure I read somewhere that campsites etc  have a clause within the "rules" or planning regs that all vehicles using the campsite must be taxed  and road legal etc


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## Obanboy666 (Dec 9, 2014)

runnach said:


> It's about time road tax was abolished, with duty added to cost of fuel, use road network frequently, user pays for the privilege. I imagine current method being the better earners for the rogues at Westminster.



Totally agree. It would also stop the tax dodgers avoiding paying the road tax.


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 9, 2014)

yeoblade said:


> Just like I like to see all the mainland European cars over here Taxed and insured, then we should comply with their laws also. I believe after 6 months foreign vehicles should register in then UK but I have seen a couple of Polish cars near here that have been here well over that time.
> 
> I heard recently on the news that the UK borders agency have no idea when foreign cars come and go from the UK so cannot enforce it, Strange that, when a car park company using ANPR can put such systems in all over the country, to monitor parking, as we all know.





We have the East European registered cars around here, they work on the produce farms out Farington Moss, Tarleton & Hesketh Bank way.

There`s a battered old VW Golf around the corner that`s been here for at least 2 years and still on Polish plates.


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## John H (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> After reading the replies a quite relevant point has come to mind.
> 
> Are we insured whilst on a campsite/private land either taxed or not?
> 
> ...



I'm not an insurance guru but if your vehicle is properly taxed, insured and maintained then your insurance is valid wherever the vehicle is legally parked. As for the rest of it, I suggest you ask your insurance company because they all have subtle differences.


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## GWAYGWAY (Dec 9, 2014)

runnach said:


> Yep, no road tax in France, fuel normaly cheaper..............the joys of living in rip off Britain!



Take a trip on the Autoroute and that's a years worth of Road Tax.
As for adding it to the fuel  we already pay more than most for that so why add more?
The road traffic act does not apply to road tax it comes under the finance act for whatever year you are in.


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## Cliffy (Dec 9, 2014)

The Camper said:


> We are talking private land as is on campsites so wouldn't be insured anyway.



Last year whilst our van was in storage on a cossa site a gale blow a full sized trampoline into our van smashing the windscreen and causing some minor damage to the overcab. The insurance company paid for the new windscreen, excess of £60 paid by me and I repaired the minor damage thus saving the no-claims bonus.

There was no argument about being on private land, the van was fully taxed and MOTd which I suppose they checked before giving Autoglass the go ahead.


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## El Veterano (Dec 9, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Sorry, you can not tax a vehicle monthly. What you can do is pay for it monthly if paid for on direct debit.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
> If you SORN a vehicle then whatever tax is left on the vehicle will be refunded. When you want to use it on the road again you will have to re-tax it again.
> So to do what you are suggesting . SORN vehicle on last day of month, DVLA will refund any tax that's left to run. T
> ...


But if you are only paying for your tax on the new per month scheme (at the slightly higher rate) and you SORN it at the end of the first month, then there is nothing to refund. Which is precisely what I am about to do - the van is currently SORN'd, I am taxing it next week, so it will be effectively taxed from the beginning of December on the monthly DD to take to France for a week, and then putting it back on SORN when we get back on 28th December.


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## El Veterano (Dec 9, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> I concur.
> My MH has been taxed continually since I bought it and its not turned a wheel since I had my knee op! like you say not worth the trouble and you don't know when you will may have to move in an emergency?


With the new online setup you can tax or SORN your van in less than 5 minutes and per month. So why on earth would you give the DVLA £20 plus per month for it to sit on your drive or in a compound. I'm taxing or SORNing mine as and when I need/ don't need it.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 10, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> With the new online setup you can tax or SORN your van in less than 5 minutes and per month. So why on earth would you give the DVLA £20 plus per month for it to sit on your drive or in a compound. I'm taxing or SORNing mine as and when I need/ don't need it.



My thoughts exactly


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## Enlli (Dec 10, 2014)

The last time we were in France the alternative route to using the Motorway was closed. The diversion took us onto the Motorway but it had been made free for the diversion section. Find that in England


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## sparrks (Dec 10, 2014)

Enlli said:


> The last time we were in France the alternative route to using the Motorway was closed. The diversion took us onto the Motorway but it had been made free for the diversion section. Find that in England



Most motorways are free in England


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## Polar Bear (Dec 10, 2014)

El Veterano;481730[B said:
			
		

> ]With the new online setup [/B]you can tax or SORN your van in less than 5 minutes and per month. So why on earth would you give the DVLA £20 plus per month for it to sit on your drive or in a compound. I'm taxing or SORNing mine as and when I need/ don't need it.



Have you checked with your insurance what level of cover you have on your car if it is not taxed? 
I have much more interesting things to do with my time and if you have so much spare time enjoy.
You *can not* tax a car for a month!


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## Polar Bear (Dec 10, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> But if you are only paying for your tax on the new per month scheme (at the slightly higher rate) and you SORN it at the end of the first month, then there is nothing to refund. Which is precisely what I am about to do - the van is currently SORN'd, I am taxing it next week, so it will be effectively taxed from the beginning of December on the monthly DD to take to France for a week, and then putting it back on SORN when we get back on 28th December.



You can not TAX monthly! You can pay for it monthly by Direct Debit - the only way to not pay them from a DD is to ask them to stop it and do you think DVLA will let you set up a new one every time the fancy takes you or do you think they will just keep taking your money out of your account? 
Do let us know what fun you have.


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## Enlli (Dec 10, 2014)

sparrks said:


> Most motorways are free in England



Only if you don't include the cost of the extra fuel used in sitting in slow moving queues


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## lebesset (Dec 10, 2014)

runnach said:


> Yep, no road tax in France, fuel normaly cheaper..............the joys of living in rip off Britain!



costs me €70 for a one way trip to paris on the motorway , real cheap eh ?
incidentally , I think you will find that one of the [british] regulations to SORN a vehicle is that it must remain in the uk


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 10, 2014)

I think you should be able to SORN by the hour then people could save pennies as well as pounds.


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## Polar Bear (Dec 10, 2014)

It looked to me like you could pay for a *years*  Tax by DD with monthly - 6 monthly or yearly payments. [continuing rolling agreement]

If you declare SORN they will refund your money [eventually] and close the DD.

So to TAX again you will have to set up new DD.

I once had a windscreen broken when on private land and was refused a claim on insurance as windscreens cover was an 'on the road risk' and therefore not covered.
I wonder what else they deem as an 'on the road risk'?


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## myshell (Dec 10, 2014)

Wooie1958 said:


> We have the East European registered cars around here, they work on the produce farms out Farington Moss, Tarleton & Hesketh Bank way.
> 
> There`s a battered old VW Golf around the corner that`s been here for at least 2 years and still on Polish plates.



Graham, I think the immigrants in your neck of the woods must be poverty stricken, the ones here in Tarleton are all driving fairly new VWs, VOLVOs, BMWs and one guy is driving a Merc! all of them on Polish plates, they have been here for well over 18 months now and they seem to think they own the village.
Phil.


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## Obanboy666 (Dec 10, 2014)

Find it amazing that people will pay 10,20,30,40,50 grand + for a motorhome and then arse on to save the odd twenty quid every few months.
i couldn't be chewed, not worth the hassle.


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## El Veterano (Dec 10, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> You can not TAX monthly! You can pay for it monthly by Direct Debit - the only way to not pay them from a DD is to ask them to stop it and do you think DVLA will let you set up a new one every time the fancy takes you or do you think they will just keep taking your money out of your account?
> Do let us know what fun you have.



Already taxed it for a year in September and SORN'd it again in October, online it took 3 minutes. Two weeks later I had a cheque for the unused months. Just taxed it again today, starting from 1st December on the monthly DD, I will SORN it again at the end of December and cancel the DD. It has taken me longer to write this than it did to tax it.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 10, 2014)

I don't understand all the negative comments, I used to spend September to March on a campsite in Spain without the van moving, surely £130 is worth saving if you can, I used arrange my tax to run out so I arrived with days to spare before the days of SORN, then my Daughter used to post the tax disc down six months later so that I could drive home legally, it is easier now so why not take advantage of it, I would not bother for a Month but my van has not been off the drive since July due to illness, the tax ran out at the end of Nov, if it wasn't for the fact I kept fooling myself into thinking tomorrow I might get away I could have saved £80, I know I could have SORN it but waiting for the tax disc seemed more hassle so now we can take advantage of it


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## El Veterano (Dec 10, 2014)

That's not quite how I read it. The bit that I saw is below:
'The Direct Debit will be cancelled and payments automatically stopped when you tell DVLA that you no longer have the vehicle, or the vehicle has been taken off the road and a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) has been made.'

But I shall still SORN and then cancel my DD myself just to be on the safe side I think.


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## John H (Dec 10, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I don't understand all the negative comments, I used to spend September to March on a campsite in Spain without the van moving, surely £130 is worth saving if you can, I used arrange my tax to run out so I arrived with days to spare before the days of SORN, then my Daughter used to post the tax disc down six months later so that I could drive home legally, it is easier now so why not take advantage of it, I would not bother for a Month but my van has not been off the drive since July due to illness, the tax ran out at the end of Nov, if it wasn't for the fact I kept fooling myself into thinking tomorrow I might get away I could have saved £80, I know I could have SORN it but waiting for the tax disc seemed more hassle so now we can take advantage of it



The "negative comments" relate to whether or not you are prepared to have your insurance invalidated. If you spend a fortune on a motorhome and then don't care if it isn't insured while you are on a campsite then fine - I and several others think that is not a wise move.


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 11, 2014)

myshell said:


> Graham, I think the immigrants in your neck of the woods must be poverty stricken, the ones here in Tarleton are all driving fairly new VWs, VOLVOs, BMWs and one guy is driving a Merc! all of them on Polish plates, they have been here for well over 18 months now and they seem to think they own the village.
> Phil.




These lot around here must have been kicked out of the posh areas then. Ours are arrogant buggers as well  :mad2:

They must work for Coxheads rather than Huntapac   :lol-053:

I know your area ( more Hesketh Bank ) quite well as my dad built and lived in a property on Marsh Road ( on the hill / bend ) for 20 years  :wave:


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 11, 2014)

Wooie1958 said:


> I think you should be able to SORN by the hour then people could save pennies as well as pounds.





I put this comment on in a light-hearted manner and i agree it could be construed as a little pedantic but hey ho, that`s life  :dance:

It seemed as if the thread was going along the lines of ..... 

i`m probably not using the van for a couple of weeks, wonder if i can sorn it ?  :anyone:


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## Teutone (Dec 11, 2014)

personally I wouldn't bother for a month, but over winter or for a period of static somewhere I would consider it. 
Also paying monthly by direct debit is dearer than paying in one payment for 12 month. So one month could save you nothing.


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## Touringtheworld (Dec 11, 2014)

....... Get a caravan, no sorn to worry about then


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> The "negative comments" relate to whether or not you are prepared to have your insurance invalidated. If you spend a fortune on a motorhome and then don't care if it isn't insured while you are on a campsite then fine - I and several others think that is not a wise move.



If it invalidates your insurance it isn't a wise move, my insurance isn't invalidated so for me it would work


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> If it invalidates your insurance it isn't a wise move, my insurance isn't invalidated so for me it would work



Yes - and that is precisely why I emphasised the need to check your insurance details. If others regard that as "negative advice" then so be it. Personally I think it is very sensible advice - but, then, I would because I gave it! :dance:


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> Yes - and that is precisely why I emphasised the need to check your insurance details. If others regard that as "negative advice" then so be it. Personally I think it is very sensible advice - but, then, I would because I gave it! :dance:



Where did I say anything about negative advice, I thought the comments about saving money was negative, advising people to check if it invalidated their insurance isn't negative and my comment was not directed at you


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

But, as stated above, a private campsite to which the public have access is technically subject to the same rules as if you are parked on the road. In practice, I shouldn't think anyone has been prosecuted but it is the rule and by breaking it you MAY find that your insurance is invalidated. So anybody considering SORNing on a campsite should be aware that there might be dangers.


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## snowbirds (Dec 11, 2014)

*What about insurance*

Hi David,

How do Insurance company's feel about no tax,are you covered if you Sorn your motorhome on your drive or private land.

Snowbirds.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

For the avoidance of doubt - Insure your car

Whether or not your insurance company will accept you keeping it on a private drive and SORNed is a matter that you will have to take up with them.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

EU regulations state that the vehicle must be taxed and insured according to the rules of the home country. Plus, I assume, most Brits will have their vehicles insured with British companies.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

The question I was answering was  "is the vehicle insured if it is on private land and SORNed?" I repeat - that is something you will have to take up with your insurance company because there is no blanket answer.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

Eh? If the insurer says that your vehicle has to be taxed at all times for your vehicle to be insured then you are not insured if you SORN it! And the clause about third party fire and theft is dependent, like all other clauses, on your vehicle complying with the law. I repeat, technically a campsite is a public place - even a private one - and so they would have a perfectly legal let-out if they chose to enforce it.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

You are not reading what I am saying. Different insurers impose different conditions. It is POSSIBLE that an insurer might insist on the vehicle being taxed for the policy to apply. Similarly, that Insurance Company might insist that the vehicle has to be taxed all the time it is on a foreign campsite. It is not a legal matter; it is a matter of whether or not the Insurance Company will pay out in the event of an accident, fire or theft. Thus people need to check. The point is a very simple and logical one - why are you trying to cloud the issue?


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

Saga advised me to make sure I had a valid MOT even on my own driveway when I enquired about this a few years ago when the 'continuous insurance enforcement’ became law, it is written in my policy that it must have one so no argument there because even if they paid out it would be a reduced payment, they advised it was better with a high value vehicle to keep it insured if it was SORN although legally you don't have to, they said I was fully covered without tax when I had SORN it, I would still check with yours though


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

My comments related to the original question - SORNing your vehicle whilst on a campsite. Many people do not realise that a campsite is classified as a highway to which the public have access. Thus it would be entirely feasible for an Insurance Company to invalidate a policy because the vehicle was not properly taxed.


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## maxi77 (Dec 11, 2014)

Different countries apply the rules differently, so whether an effectively untaxed car is legal under all circumstances is an interesting point.Certainly the GNR here in Portugal are not that interested as far as I can see but the financial police may be interested in how long it has been here. As for insurance it is simply a contract between you and the insurer, break his conditions and the contract is broken, irrespective of the risks covered. Minimum legal requirements will only be covered as long as the contract is complied with. If they say the car must be taxed then it must to continue the cover, though they may well be happy to extend it to untaxed cover if you ask and they are happy with the place it is stored.


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## El Veterano (Dec 11, 2014)

On my insurance document (Safeguard) it clearly states that the insured vehicle must be taxed at all times for it to remain insured, there was no reference to SORN. So I asked them (Safeguard) the question the other week, and yes, the vehicle is still insured whilst under SORN, I have that in writing from them. However, I only asked if this was the case for when it is parked in its secure CasSoa Gold compound (which is part of a campsite as it happens). So if it were to be parked elsewhere I would advise you to check with your insurer. 
I am never going to be on a campsite in Benidorm for 3 months, so that part of the question doesn't really apply to me, but I cannot see how it would matter a jot to an insurance company whether a vehicle is taxed or SORN'd - so long as it is NOT being used on a public highway, here in the UK or abroad whilst it is under SORN. And I cannot accept that your personal pitch on a campsite with an entrance barrier on the Costa del Sol, is a public highway.
One thing is for certain though is the fact that you will definitely NOT be insured if you have no MOT.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> And I cannot accept that your personal pitch on a campsite with a entrance barrier on the Costa del Sol, is a public highway.



It is not a question of whether you accept it or not; it is whether or not that is what the law says.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

Oh dear, oh dear. There are two points here - both of which you consistently ignore because you have no answer to them:

1. The law says that private land to which the public have access ( and that includes campsites) counts as the highway for purposes of road traffic offences

2. As far as Insurance companies are concerned (and that is the point at issue) it matters not a jot what the law says about SORNing a vehicle; what matters is what their contract with you says. You really must try to live in the real world.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> On my insurance document (Safeguard) it clearly states that the insured vehicle must be taxed at all times for it to remain insured, there was no reference to SORN. So I asked them (Safeguard) the question the other week, and yes, the vehicle is still insured whilst under SORN, I have that in writing from them. However, I only asked if this was the case for when it is parked in its secure CasSoa Gold compound (which is part of a campsite as it happens). So if it were to be parked elsewhere I would advise you to check with your insurer.
> I am never going to be on a campsite in Benidorm for 3 months, so that part of the question doesn't really apply to me, but I cannot see how it would matter a jot to an insurance company whether a vehicle is taxed or SORN'd - so long as it is NOT being used on a public highway, here in the UK or abroad whilst it is under SORN. And I cannot accept that your personal pitch on a campsite with a entrance barrier on the Costa del Sol, is a public highway.
> One thing is for certain though is the fact that you will definitely NOT be insured if you have no MOT.


It sounds very similar to the answer I got, personally while I think it is prudent to check if it doesn't say on your Policy that you have to be taxed I don't see it making a difference, the Insurance Ombudsman will look at decisions if you complain and they have a policy of if it doesn't affect your risk they will side with you if the law allows it, how can a van parked on a campsite without VED be more of a risk than one that has it, driving illegally on the road can be considered different because the 'illegal' bit gives a loophole but as I never knowingly do that it doesn't concern me:angel:


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## El Veterano (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> It is not a question of whether you accept it or not; it is whether or not that is what the law says.



Agreed, but if it is private property, and the fact that there is a barrier would imply this, then it is private property and there is no right of access to anybody other than those the owners wish to allow. ie paying campers.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> Agreed, but if it is private property, and the fact that there is a barrier would imply this, then it is private property and there is no right of access to anybody other than those the owners wish to allow. ie paying campers.



What is a 'road'? « Scroll to the bottom - caravan parks are designated to be places to which the public have access and are therefore "roads" within the meaning of the law. People may not like it; people may think it is illogical; people may think it is nonsense - but it IS the law.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> What is a 'road'? « Scroll to the bottom - caravan parks are designated to be places to which the public have access and are therefore "roads" within the meaning of the law. People may not like it; people may think it is illogical; people may think it is nonsense - but it IS the law.


I fully understand what you are saying but just as the road outside my house has public access my drive doesn't, if I am on a campsite the public have access to the road alongside my pitch but not on my pitch so surely that is the difference, that is where the SORN vehicle is parked so in my opinion that is not a place with public access


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## iveco4x4 (Dec 11, 2014)

Lets not call it a campsite

Lets call it a carpark.

You pay your money and you get to park there. Now you would expect your vehicle to be insured even when in a carpark, and for the road traffic act to apply (ie.no drink driving)

My camper is sorned at present, but insured and MOT'd and parked on my land at the back of the house

My view is that sorning for 1 month is a waste of time, You'll end up with multiple DD's and it will go wrong, the flexibility isn't that flexible.

If its parked up for 6 months then it might be worth the saving but is it worth the potential hassle with local plod

Rich


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I fully understand what you are saying but just as the road outside my house has public access my drive doesn't, if I am on a campsite the public have access to the road alongside my pitch but not on my pitch so surely that is the difference, that is where the SORN vehicle is parked so in my opinion that is not a place with public access



The law says your drive is not a public highway but a campsite is. I repeat - you may think that is illogical but it IS the law. You are free to make whatever decision you wish but it pays to be aware of the potential consequences. I have never fallen foul of the law in this respect - because I am always prepared. If you choose to defy the law you may get away with it - or you may not. It is up to you; I know what advice I will always give. With the greatest possible respect, your opinion (and mine!) is irrelevant - what we are talking about here is the legal situation.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

iveco4x4 said:


> If its parked up for 6 months then it might be worth the saving but is it worth the potential hassle with local plod
> 
> Rich


If you are on a campsite there is no hassle with local plod because they are not interested as you are not breaking any laws neither ours or theirs, nobody is saying that you can drive it and I would not risk it even to the local supermarket, the fine for sorning and then using are far higher than just using without tax but if you are 'parked' for six months without seeing a road then why do you need to pay to use one?


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> if you are 'parked' for six months without seeing a road then why do you need to pay to use one?



Because your definition of a road is not necessary the one that the law uses! But I agree that the local plod are not likely to be interested. The point at issue here is whether or not you will be insured in the event of an accident and if the insurance companies have a let-out you can be sure they will use it. I don't know how much you value your motorhome but I want mine to be properly insured at all times!


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> The law says your drive is not a public highway but a campsite is. I repeat - you may think that is illogical but it IS the law. You are free to make whatever decision you wish but it pays to be aware of the potential consequences. I have never fallen foul of the law in this respect - because I am always prepared. If you choose to defy the law you may get away with it - or you may not. It is up to you; I know what advice I will always give. With the greatest possible respect, your opinion (and mine!) is irrelevant.


I am not arguing with your logic but I would still argue my pitch that I pay for is mine and not a public highway whether the rest of the campsite is, because I am paying for that little plot then nobody else is even allowed to walk across it so it cannot be public access, maybe something to be decided in the High Court if the Insurance does not pay out because as much as I see why you are saying it I do not agree


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I am not arguing with your logic but I would still argue my pitch that I pay for is mine and not a public highway whether the rest of the campsite is, because I am paying for that little plot then nobody else is even allowed to walk across it so it cannot be public access, maybe something to be decided in the High Court if the Insurance does not pay out because as much as I see why you are saying it I do not agree



You may be prepared to challenge any decision through the courts but I have better things to do with my time and my money!

PS people are allowed to walk across your pitch. You may not like it but they are. I have witnessed an irate camper complaining to the site owner about someone walking across his pitch and the very calm reply of the owner was "It is not your pitch; it is mine. You may hire it for a while if I agree to let you but you have no rights over it that I do not give you".


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## Steve C (Dec 11, 2014)

So John as I understand it from what you say.
My 5 acre  field, fenced all around and with one closed gate, is private property.
If I take payment from one tent or caravan to stay overnight, the gate is still closed, it becomes a public highway?
Will I expect the local authority to contribute for upkeep and improvement ?


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> Because your definition of a road is not necessary the one that the law uses! But I agree that the local plod are not likely to be interested. The point at issue here is whether or not you will be insured in the event of an accident and if the insurance companies have a let-out you can be sure they will use it. I don't know how much you value your motorhome but I want mine to be properly insured at all times!


My Insurance Company (Saga) are quite happy for me to have no tax on a campsite so no problem, the only good thing about discussions like this is that everybody should know now to check with their own Insurance Company so nobody gets caught out


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

Steve C said:


> So John as I understand it from what you say.
> My 5 acre  field, fenced all around and with one closed gate, is private property.
> If I take payment from one tent or caravan to stay overnight, the gate is still closed, it becomes a public highway?
> Will I expect the local authority to contribute for upkeep and improvement ?



You understand wrong. If you take payment without having a licence then you are breaking a different law! Also, the legal definition of what constitutes a public highway has nothing to do with who is responsible for its upkeep. For example, under the Road Traffic Act you can be guilty of a traffic offence on a private road even though that road is maintained at private expense.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> My Insurance Company (Saga) are quite happy for me to have no tax on a campsite so no problem, the only good thing about discussions like this is that everybody should know now to check with their own Insurance Company so nobody gets caught out



That is precisely the point I have been making!


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> You may be prepared to challenge any decision through the courts but I have better things to do with my time and my money!
> 
> PS people are allowed to walk across your pitch. You may not like it but they are. I have witnessed an irate camper complaining to the site owner about someone walking across his pitch and the very calm reply of the owner was "It is not your pitch; it is mine. You may hire it for a while if I agree to let you but you have no rights over it that I do not give you".


I am only thinking of the pitch I use for long term in Spain, it is my pitch, it isn't a CS or CL it is a properly marked out pitch with hedges across the back and down both sides and the site owners do not think as the ones you quoted do, there is nowhere to walk through it and if anybody tried I would not be a 'pleasant person', of course that is if the dog on the chain didn't get them first, seriously though, on these Premium Campsites people are not allowed to walk across your pitch, totally different from unmarked pitches where you do not have a boundary, my time is free these days and as my money is better off staying mine and I have survived 63yrs without paying through the nose for anything why should I start now, as I said, Saga are happy and that is good enough for me, somebody else posted that Safeguard are happy as well, perhaps everybody should phone their Insurers and ask then we can get a definitive answer, meanwhile I am happy to save a little bit without risking anything


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> That is precisely the point I have been making!


Fully agree with that, it is good to talk View attachment 26613


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## El Veterano (Dec 11, 2014)

John H said:


> What is a 'road'? « Scroll to the bottom - caravan parks are designated to be places to which the public have access and are therefore "roads" within the meaning of the law. People may not like it; people may think it is illogical; people may think it is nonsense - but it IS the law.



It is possible to pick as many definitions of a 'road' as one likes, and it can probably be construed to read in favor of whichever party feels is justified.
Here's a couple:
_*Access to the Public
To fall within S192[1] RTA 1988 the road must be one to which the public have access. Whether or not the public have access to a road is a question of fact. If a member of the public has to over come some form of physical barrier or act in defiance of a prohibition then that will not be considered a road to which the public have access - Cox v White [1976] RTR 248
A sign on a private road which stated that 'Trespassers will be prosecuted' was held to be a sufficient prohibition to members of the public to exclude the location from S192 1988 - R v Beaumont [1964] Crim LR 665
A car park is not a road - Clarke v Kato [1998]*_

The Clark v. Kato case and also the Cutter v. Eagle Star case, both go into very long winded dialogue as to how both individuals insurance companies were trying to get out of paying compensation as they did not consider the accidents to occur on a 'road'. The first was an accident to a car parked on the side of a kerb in a car park and the second was an incident in a parking space in a multi-storey car park. It ended up going to appeal and they found:  
_*In conclusion, it was held that in neither of the appeals did the incident in question occur on a "road". They were not places designed or dedicated for the passage of vehicles, and neither in character nor in function did they qualify to he "roads".*_

This of course is really a load of nonsensical jargon to keep the solicitors pockets lined. But at the end of the day I think that if a motorhome is parked on its allocated plot of a secure campsite, probably with a barrier, then it is unlikely that it would be considered to be on a road. If however said motorhome was to be driving upon the service roads within the campsite, then that may result in another long winded battle for the solicitors. :wave:


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## Tezza33 (Dec 11, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> But at the end of the day I think that if a motorhome is parked on its allocated plot of a secure campsite, probably with a barrier, then it is unlikely that it would be considered to be on a road. If however said motorhome was to be driving upon the service roads within the campsite, then that may result in another long winded battle for the solicitors. :wave:


I would fully agree with that after reading JohnH's argument but still following my logic,


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> It is possible to pick as many definitions of a 'road' as one likes



Of course you can - but the law states that a campsite qualifies! You can argue endlessly in court - but I would rather spend my money in other ways.


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## John H (Dec 11, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I am only thinking of the pitch I use for long term in Spain, it is my pitch, it isn't a CS or CL it is a properly marked out pitch with hedges across the back and down both sides and the site owners do not think as the ones you quoted do, there is nowhere to walk through it and if anybody tried I would not be a 'pleasant person', of course that is if the dog on the chain didn't get them first, seriously though, on these Premium Campsites people are not allowed to walk across your pitch, totally different from unmarked pitches where you do not have a boundary, my time is free these days and as my money is better off staying mine and I have survived 63yrs without paying through the nose for anything why should I start now, as I said, Saga are happy and that is good enough for me, somebody else posted that Safeguard are happy as well, perhaps everybody should phone their Insurers and ask then we can get a definitive answer, meanwhile I am happy to save a little bit without risking anything



The incident I am referring to also occurred in Spain - on a site with hedged pitches with well-defined boundaries. Your rights to occupy that pitch are only what the site owner grants you and I would be amazed if there were a clause in the rental agreement (which most people never bother to read) that said nobody other than you could walk onto the pitch. What some people think are their rights are not rights at all and such stuff is the cause of many a neighbour dispute which only the solicitors benefit from - but I'm not complaining because my wife made a good living out of them! :dance:


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## maxi77 (Dec 11, 2014)

You also seem to miss the point of different ships different cap tallies, here in Portugal the concept of SORN does not exist, all vehicles must be taxed at all times. It is also going to be interesting to see how some countries live with the reality that UK vehicles no longer have a tax disc t idicate they are tax paid. In my experience the French Gendarmerie and customs do enjoy finding fault and thus the opportunity to tax and fine  'les ROSTBIF'


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

There has definitely been misinterpretation here but you picked the wrong person! . You clearly don't understand that in England, case law IS part of the legal system The Sources of the Legal System . Thus you have answered your own question - the legal basis for considering a campsite a road is included most definitely in the section of my link that you reproduced. It is not, as you so eloquently put it, a few cases that the solicitors thought might represent the law! :wacko:


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## SteveM (Dec 12, 2014)

The taxation of vehicles, the investigation and prosecution of avoidance is a DVLA matter.


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

If you understand it why did you question it? 

And you still do not understand case law. Let me try to explain in simple terms. Most law is determined by Statute. In this case, the Statute (RTA) states that offences may be committed on land to which the public has access and gives one or two examples (eg car parks). It does not specify caravan sites. Hence judges have to interpret the law. Judges in a high court have determined that campsites DO constitute public places (including pitches!). That decision is BINDING on all future cases unless or until it is overturned by a higher court (and the Supreme Court is the highest we have) or it is modified or replaced by a new Statute passed by Parliament. So, until someone changes the law, campsites ARE public places but your drive is not. Is that clear?


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## SteveM (Dec 12, 2014)

As helpful as your sentence on the matter then I would suggest.


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## slippers (Dec 12, 2014)

Nurse, he's out of bed again!


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

There certainly are many things you don't understand and , clearly, the law ranks among them. I have no problem with the info that el veterano posted and it does not conflict with what I posted. Your examples do not relate to caravan sites; they relate to car parks. You wouldn't be trying to divert attention again would you?


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

[No message]


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm getting bored now - yes you are talking nonsense and before you respond again I suggest you actually READ the references you make. As I said before, the examples you quote refer to certain car parks. There is NO reference to caravan sites in them. The only reference to caravan sites is the one I posted, in which it is clear that the law has determined they are places to which the public has access and therefore count as places in which the RTA applies. If you wish to ignore that, then fine - take the consequences. But please don't try to continue to insist that black is white when the courts have determined that it is clearly black.


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

Try reading the reference again - it clearly states that there would have been an offence if the prosecution had used the phrase "area to which the public had access" instead of "road". I have put absolutely NO personal interpretation on anything. I have made no assumptions. I have simply reported what the courts have decided. Because you don't like what they have said, you have decided to pretend they didn't say it. You really are proving yourself to be a bit of a pratt, aren't you?


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## RoadTrek Boy (Dec 12, 2014)

It looks like the children are overtired again, is it past their bedtime?  :sleep-027:


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## El Veterano (Dec 12, 2014)

slippers said:


> Nurse, he's out of bed again!


Oooooh Matron!!!!!


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## El Veterano (Dec 12, 2014)

All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original  post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

I only resort to personal insults when people who are supposedly intelligent repeatedly refuse to actually read what either others or they themselves have quoted! I HAVE said that I have no problems with what El Veterano posted - primarily because he quoted legal decisions rather than the random thoughts that you prefer to rely on. His links were entirely valid and related to car parks. The ONLY person who has posted links to court decisions on caravan sites is me. They are not my thoughts; I have passed no opinion on them - they are the decisions of the court and I have passed them on for the purpose of informing others. Once others have read them they can make up their own minds about what decisions they wish to take. It is interesting, is it not, that you are the only person that has tried to argue with that?

And have you not thought that the reason why others have "liked" my posts is because they agree that they are sensible? You are becoming paranoid. This is not about you; it is about answering the question originally posted - which I have done and which only you have questioned. I have had a great day, enjoying a barbecue and good wine in the company of good friends, so I am not inclined to sink to your level but I will say this - grow up, for goodness sake!


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## Polar Bear (Dec 12, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original  post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:



I was in an aire in Bellrigarde, Spain two years ago when the guarda civil came around. they asked to see my passport, drivers licence, insurance, log book. MOT certificate and looked at my tax disc. I don't know what they would have done if the docs weren't in order. I wondered if they could have done anything and spoke to a Spanish friend about it, He thought that Aires belong to the council so they can take action if you don't comply?


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## shortcircuit (Dec 12, 2014)

I think this sums up why many will not participate due to your attitude.  I "Like" because I agree with the content and have no need to participate particularly to end up the brunt of your ego.


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> All this toing and frowing seems to have (nearly) answered the question in the original  post - that is so far as the UK is concerned - can we now move on to how this might be interpreted in French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian etc etc Greek, Slovakian etc etc law as per the original post. Or was that on another forum - I get so confused these days........:bow:



Hi

EU regulations state that vehicles have to comply with the law of their home country. Thus, if something is legal in the UK and you have a UK registered vehicle then it is legal in the rest of the EU. However, the reality is never as clear as the theory. If I may digress for a moment, it is arguable whether A-frames are legal or not in the UK and because of that uncertainty the police in France and Spain are pulling up Brits (and others) with A-frames. I have not heard of anyone in the UK being stopped for towing with an A-frame but because it is not entirely clear whether it is legal then other EU countries have applied their own rules. So nothing is as simple as it might first appear.

However, I believe that the question of insurance is significant here and whichever country the OP is in he is probably insured via a UK company, who will apply whatever rules they have included in their contract. Thus, anyone considering SORNing their vehicle on a campsite - either in the UK or elsewhere - would be well-advised to talk to their Insurance company.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 12, 2014)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> , it is arguable whether A-frames are legal or not in the UK .


A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say

https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment



> A-frames and dollies
> 
> If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.
> 
> ...


If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity


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## Polar Bear (Dec 12, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment
> 
> If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity



Good link.
Noticed this though?
quote;
The use of “A”- Frames in other EU countries
The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle


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## Tezza33 (Dec 12, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Good link.
> Noticed this though?
> quote;
> The use of “A”- Frames in other EU countries
> The Vienna Convention is the international law that governs this issue. We cannot comment on the interpretation of this by other European countries and whether they permit or prohibit the use of A-frames in their national traffic. Anyone intending to travel through a European country and using an A-frame to tow a vehicle


I have done it without problem for over thirty years, I have been stopped and checked but allowed to continue unhindered in Germany, Spain and Belgium but I stopped doing it a few years ago when Spain started getting awkward again, simply not worth the hassle plus my travel itineraries changed, I don't want to stay in one place long enough to need a car


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## John H (Dec 12, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> A frames are legal in this Country, there is no argument about it apart from back room Lawyers, try looking at what the 'Government' say
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment
> 
> If the 'big' Clubs actually backed A frames much like European Clubs back their members instead of shaking their heads and saying it is a grey area we would have more clarity



I'm afraid there is argument about it and the link you posted confirms that! The guidance document you refer to says "we believe it is legal"......."but it is only the courts that can reach a definitive interpretation" Since no case has been brought to the UK courts it remains unclear. This is how the police in France and Spain are able to stop and fine people using A-frames.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 12, 2014)

John H said:


> I'm afraid there is argument about it and the link you posted confirms that! The guidance document you refer to says "we believe it is legal"......."but it is only the courts that can reach a definitive interpretation" Since no case has been brought to the UK courts it remains unclear. This is how the police in France and Spain are able to stop and fine people using A-frames.


Which is why I stopped taking my car over there but France has only just joined Spain in stopping motorhomers who are using A frames, they are not fining or even making them uncouple yet, my feelings are if they don't want me to do it then as a visitor to their Country I should not argue and obey their rules, there might be arguments but it is still legal in the UK until somebody proves it otherwise


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 12, 2014)

Back to the original question this is taken from the Caravan Club rules

"13 Site roads

a. Normal highway rules apply on sites. Please follow the principles of road safety. You must have a full current driving licence and insurance for the vehicle driven. Cars and motorhomes must have a valid road fund licence"

clearly they have decided that all vehicles must be road legal whilst on site, can't see no mention of it so far in the C&CC rules.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 12, 2014)

Very interesting but in all the years of using them has anybody been checked, there are only two bodies who can decide the legalities of this and that is the DVLA and your own Insurance Company, my Insurance Company are happy and the DVLA do not specify clearly, I would not stop on a CC site for more than a few days so not relevant to me anyway


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 12, 2014)

I think I've been a member of both clubs for over ten years and have never used a club site but we do use CS / CL sites extensively as we live in our truck, I do know there is a clause in our insurance that says the vehicle must have valid road fund licence for the term of the insurance so it's worth while checking out the small print if anyone is thinking of sorning a vehicle, it would hardly be worth doing on most campsites anyway due to the 28 day rule.


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 13, 2014)

The Camper said:


> Just looking at the new regs as regards to taxing my van and as I read it you can now tax it monthly – so if you are on a campsite for more than a month what’s to stop you SORNing the van and saving a few bob?
> 
> PS is SORNing a verb or have I just made it up



as I mentioned a post back check with your insurance, mine states that the vehicle must have valid RFL for the duration of the insurance term.

are you sure about the taxing monthly, I thought you could only tax for either six or twelve months  as normal but with various methods of paying including monthly DD, with a lot of site including both of the main clubs campsites you cannot stay for more than 28 consecutive  days anyway.


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## trevskoda (Dec 13, 2014)

John H said:


> But, as stated above, a private campsite to which the public have access is technically subject to the same rules as if you are parked on the road. In practice, I shouldn't think anyone has been prosecuted but it is the rule and by breaking it you MAY find that your insurance is invalidated. So anybody considering SORNing on a campsite should be aware that there might be dangers.



sorry but you are wrong,a road consitutes a tarmaced road with street lighting and or a footwalk which has been singed over to the control of the doe roads division,other wise its privat even if  used by  post or milk man.you do not require either tax or ins but i would keep insured if of any value,and your insurance has no bearing on this as there insuring for loss so no tax required.however if you move it whilsed on privat land and hit someone you will or could be taken to court on a privat claim,ie not by crown prosacution and you could or may have to fund this yourself as your ins is only relavent to fire and theft as you are not on a public hidhway and not coverd for third party dameges.
i know this as at 19 years old police tried taking me to court for riding a motor bike with no ins tax and no helmet on a garage forcourt part of which the public had no excess to behind our workshop and away from the fuel pumps,the case was turfed out on these grounds , road tax is only required t drive on a highway where doe have taken control and does not efect your ins.


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> Which is why I stopped taking my car over there but France has only just joined Spain in stopping motorhomers who are using A frames, they are not fining or even making them uncouple yet, my feelings are if they don't want me to do it then as a visitor to their Country I should not argue and obey their rules, there might be arguments but it is still legal in the UK until somebody proves it otherwise



True but the uncertainty that is expressed in the Government guidance is the excuse that foreign police need to stop tourists - and we have met several who have been forced to uncouple (though none yet who have been fined).


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> sorry but you are wrong,a road consitutes a tarmaced road with street lighting and or a footwalk which has been singed over to the control of the doe roads division,other wise its privat even if  used by  post or milk man.you do not require either tax or ins but i would keep insured if of any value,and your insurance has no bearing on this as there insuring for loss so no tax required.however if you move it whilsed on privat land and hit someone you will or could be taken to court on a privat claim,ie not by crown prosacution and you could or may have to fund this yourself as your ins is only relavent to fire and theft as you are not on a public hidhway and not coverd for third party dameges.
> i know this as at 19 years old police tried taking me to court for riding a motor bike with no ins tax and no helmet on a garage forcourt part of which the public had no excess to behind our workshop and away from the fuel pumps,the case was turfed out on these grounds , road tax is only required t drive on a highway where doe have taken control and does not efect your ins.



I repeat What is a 'road'? « . It may not be your definition of a road, you may think it is illogical but it IS the legal definition and it includes campsites. 

You are correct about the procedure if an accident happens on private land but a Caravan Site is legally a place to which the public have access and the courts (not me!) have determined that you can be prosecuted for Road Traffic Offences on a campsite. Your example of the garage does not contradict this - you were on land to which the public had no right of access. It is interesting to discover from Fulltimer's post that the Caravan Club (who are absolute sticklers for rules!) have now included this in their terms and conditions.


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## RichardHelen262 (Dec 13, 2014)

Touringtheworld said:


> ....... Get a caravan, no sorn to worry about then



But then could I sorn the car on the days I don't go out in it ?


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## El Veterano (Dec 13, 2014)

John H said:


> I repeat What is a 'road'? « . It may not be your definition of a road, you may think it is illogical but it IS the legal definition and it includes campsites.
> 
> You are correct about the procedure if an accident happens on private land but a Caravan Site is legally a place to which the public have access and the courts (not me!) have determined that you can be prosecuted for Road Traffic Offences on a campsite. Your example of the garage does not contradict this - you were on land to which the public had no right of access. It is interesting to discover from Fulltimer's post that the Caravan Club (who are absolute sticklers for rules!) have now included this in their terms and conditions.



Could I refer you once more to the Clark v. Kato case and also the Cutter v. Eagle Star case. It is quite clear to me that the definition of anything, road or otherwise, rests entirely on how good your lawyer is. If you wish to keep going round and round in circles until someone agrees with you on this thread, then go for it. 
As for me I have an urgent appointment to apply woodworm killer to my old school desk, before it gets completely out of hand, and then I shall be wiring up my new tow hitch. Both a far more constructive use of my day in my opinion.


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

El Veterano said:


> Could I refer you once more to the Clark v. Kato case and also the Cutter v. Eagle Star case. It is quite clear to me that the definition of anything, road or otherwise, rests entirely on how good your lawyer is. If you wish to keep going round and round in circles until someone agrees with you on this thread, then go for it.
> As for me I have an urgent appointment to apply woodworm killer to my old school desk, before it gets completely out of hand, and then I shall be wiring up my new tow hitch. Both a far more constructive use of my day in my opinion.



No circles - very much a straight line! I have already commented on those cases. Both of them refer to car parks; neither of them have anything to do with campsites. 

And with the greatest of respect, it matters not a jot what your opinion (or mine) is - or how many people agree with you or with me. The legal situation is clearly laid out in the link I have now posted twice. It never ceases to amaze me that many people think they know the law better than the lawyers - but if those people didn't exist, maybe I couldn't afford to be sitting here in the Spanish sun now!


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## shortcircuit (Dec 13, 2014)

Glad you still retain "I am so superior attitude". With all your experiences I tend to think " Jack of all trades, master of none". I know who my money is on for accurate advice.


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## trevskoda (Dec 13, 2014)

John H said:


> I repeat What is a 'road'? « . It may not be your definition of a road, you may think it is illogical but it IS the legal definition and it includes campsites.
> 
> You are correct about the procedure if an accident happens on private land but a Caravan Site is legally a place to which the public have access and the courts (not me!) have determined that you can be prosecuted for Road Traffic Offences on a campsite. Your example of the garage does not contradict this - you were on land to which the public had no right of access. It is interesting to discover from Fulltimer's post that the Caravan Club (who are absolute sticklers for rules!) have now included this in their terms and conditions.



hi john i see where you are comming from ,garage forecourts shoping car parks all have access for people and are covered by road traffic act but a privat lane or also a camp site may not as camp sites are not open to public if they have a gated entrance,they are only for the patrons and staff and are considered privat ,but if there is no gate or sine stating privat road campsite etc then it would be open to the scrutany of the law. same thing with your house if you have gates and someone moves in and camps there breaking and entering ,but if the gates are open or there are no gates and travelers or any one moves in then they are ok to do so in which you will have a hell of a job through courts < privat case > geting them out ,as for campsites if gates closed then its privat no tax required,but for a month or so is it realy worth not taxing van personely i would not bother .:rolleyes2::drive:


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

Well, I'll give this to you, David, you are not afraid to keep coming back and digging even deeper holes. Perhaps you would be good enough to point out precisely where I have expressed an opinion and called it fact. I have expressed very little opinion on this thread. I have merely pointed out what the law says. Nobody on this site knows whether I approve of that law or not - because I have not expressed an opinion. We do, however, know that if people question your opinion s you go all paranoid. Still sunny and warm here by the way - off for tapas shortly


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> hi john i see where you are comming from ,garage forecourts shoping car parks all have access for people and are covered by road traffic act but a privat lane or also a camp site may not as camp sites are not open to public if they have a gated entrance,they are only for the patrons and staff and are considered privat ,but if there is no gate or sine stating privat road campsite etc then it would be open to the scrutany of the law. same thing with your house if you have gates and someone moves in and camps there breaking and entering ,but if the gates are open or there are no gates and travelers or any one moves in then they are ok to do so in which you will have a hell of a job through courts < privat case > geting them out ,as for campsites if gates closed then its privat no tax required,but for a month or so is it realy worth not taxing van personely i would not bother .:rolleyes2::drive:



I can see the logic of what you say but if you read the link I have now posted twice you will see that is not how the law views it.


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## Tezza33 (Dec 13, 2014)

FULL TIMER said:


> as I mentioned a post back check with your insurance, mine states that the vehicle must have valid RFL for the duration of the insurance term.
> 
> are you sure about the taxing monthly, I thought you could only tax for either six or twelve months  as normal but with various methods of paying including monthly DD, with a lot of site including both of the main clubs campsites you cannot stay for more than 28 consecutive  days anyway.



Which Insurance Company are you with?, I would like to know which ones stipulate you have to have valid RFL so that I can avoid them.

You can only tax for six or twelve months but if you are paying by monthly DD you can sorn your vehicle at any time and the DD is then cancelled, it would then have to be set up again so in theory you can tax it for one month, nothing new there because you could do that before but you had to wait for a refund


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

Now, I will happily admit that I know nothing about mental health problems but, as a layperson, your reaction in post 130 to people agreeing with me - "presumably they prefer to see you attack me than to say anything useful themselves" - seems like paranoia to me. At the very least, it is, as others have pointed out, aggressive and arrogant. Enjoy your rest.


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

David, you are a very knowledgeable person on some matters. On those matters, I sometimes agree with you and sometimes disagree but at all times I respect that you know your facts and that your views need to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, there are many matters on which you have no or very little knowledge, yet you insist on behaving as if you do. Why is that? Do you suffer from an inferiority complex or is it more serious than that?

Let me put an entirely hypothetical situation. You might post a statement that all dogs are brown. Someone else may then post a link from the Kennel Club that shows that beyond doubt some dogs are not brown. 99.9% of us in that situation would laugh it off and say - oops, I made a mistake, didn't I? You, however, seem to believe that the ONLY defence is attack and are more likely to come back by accusing the second poster of being an arrogant know-all who thinks his opinion is better than yours. That, in a nutshell, is how you have behaved on this thread. If any of my friends or family behaved in that way I would be seriously worried for their health and find a way to advise them to have a chat with their doctor about the way they react to others.


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## El Veterano (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm bored now - going on a killing spree, woodworm, be afraid.........


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## Polar Bear (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm bored too - to put this thread to bed - Your SORNed  vehicle cannot be outside of the UK so all this chat is irrelevant!

Taken from 

https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification

Your SORN is valid until your vehicle is taxed, sold, scrapped or permanently exported. 

*Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain for your SORN to be valid.*

SORN and vehicle tax

You’ll get an automatic refund of your vehicle tax for any full remaining months when you make a SORN. It will be sent to the address on the DVLA record. 

You won’t get a refund of the extra fee you paid if you bought vehicle tax that lasts for 6 months.

You’ll need to buy vehicle tax if you want to use the vehicle again on the road. This expires your SORN.


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## John H (Dec 13, 2014)

Well done indeed, Polar Bear - I have to admit that I hadn't spotted the aspect of the SORN regulations that refers to keeping the vehicle in the UK - but don't SORN it whilst on a UK campsite! :goodluck:


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## trevskoda (Dec 13, 2014)

is it over as i have just ordered a pair of boxing gloves of ebay,paddy to late as always.:lol-053::wave:


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## John H (Dec 14, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> is it over as i have just ordered a pair of boxing gloves of ebay,paddy to late as always.:lol-053::wave:



Hope so! But on a serious note, I hope the OP has discovered what he needs to know. All the nonsense from a certain quarter aside, I have certainly learned a couple of new things - one from Fulltimer that the CC does not allow SORNing on its sites and one from Polar Bear about SORNed vehicles having to stay in the UK. In summary, although the courts have decided you can be prosecuted for a RTA offence on a campsite, in practice this is unlikely to happen - especially if your vehicle is stationary on a pitch for a long period. Far more significant is the question of insurance and that is a matter that people need to take up with their own Insurers because it is clear that some do allow SORNing and others don't. But a final word of warning: even if your Insurance Company says it is ok, you need to read the t&cs of the campsite carefully because it is quite possible that the CC is not the only organisation that won't accept it. Think that covers everything - its raining here, so it is definitely not a bbq day today! :cheers:


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## trevskoda (Dec 14, 2014)

well mine is sorned on drive wating for me to do the last bits of rebuild,and its wet and windy here and thats just me.:lol-049::wave:


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## Tezza33 (Dec 14, 2014)

I have just tried to sorn my dog but they said he is black not brown, any advice?


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## trevskoda (Dec 14, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I have just tried to sorn my dog but they said he is black not brown, any advice?



yep nowt is black or white these days. :lol-053::lol-049:


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## John H (Dec 14, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> yep nowt is black or white these days. :lol-053::lol-049:



Apart from my chess board


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## Polar Bear (Dec 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Apart from my chess board



Other coloured chess boards are available!


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## trevskoda (Dec 14, 2014)

snakes and ladders anyone.


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## John H (Dec 14, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> snakes and ladders anyone.



Unsecured ladders and loose snakes contravene Health and Safety Regulations and are therefore illegal anywhere in the EU - unless you SORN them


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## Polar Bear (Dec 14, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> snakes and ladders anyone.



The Health and safety Executive has banned the ladders and Adders game due to people not securing board to a wall before using.


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## st3v3 (Dec 14, 2014)

Interesting on the sites that don't allow vehicles with no tax. Since the requirement to display has gone - how will they check? I know I can go on the net, but it says you are only allowed to check vehicles you own.


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## John H (Dec 14, 2014)

st3v3 said:


> Interesting on the sites that don't allow vehicles with no tax. Since the requirement to display has gone - how will they check? I know I can go on the net, but it says you are only allowed to check vehicles you own.



Seems it is not that difficult! https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax


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## maxi77 (Dec 14, 2014)

I hope so, the more people who are obliged to pay their due taxes the less I will have to pay, though perhaps there would be more of a return if the likes of Starbucks and Amazon were obliged to cough up their share


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## st3v3 (Dec 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Seems it is not that difficult! https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-tax



Ah, always used to have a tick box to confirm you owned the vehicle.


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## st3v3 (Dec 14, 2014)

Obviously possible, and I'd like to think it will happen ( for the tax due reasons maxi mentions), is the offence being committed here of in the other country? I'm not sure who would prosecute?


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## trevskoda (Dec 14, 2014)

yes david i have a code as a dealer as somtimes people trade in m/bikes for outboard engines and i dont want my co/name on logbook.


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## El Veterano (Dec 14, 2014)

David, as you well know, they haven't the foggiest idea which individuals comes into the country or who leave it. They have no chance of knowing the status of a motorbike :bow:


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## trevskoda (Dec 14, 2014)

dont see many hanging onto the back axal of a motorbike.:scared::lol-049::lol-049::lol-053::lol-053:


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## Polar Bear (Dec 14, 2014)

Dealers do not have to SORN vehicles in their keeping. 
They send in the Dealer portion of the V5 doc and keep the main portion for transfer to new owner. All registered dealers have a traders number that allows them to have trade plates that covers the RFL on the vehicles they demonstrate/keep/sell


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## Polar Bear (Dec 14, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> dont see many hanging onto the back axal of a motorbike.:scared::lol-049::lol-049::lol-053::lol-053:



You do in Calais?
They'll try anything.


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## John H (Dec 15, 2014)

st3v3 said:


> Ah, always used to have a tick box to confirm you owned the vehicle.



Did you notice the little box that tells you how to report an untaxed vehicle? Not only can anybody check any vehicle now but they want us to police the system as well! Mind you, I've no objection to making sure that all vehicles on the road are taxed - it might keep the cost down for the rest of us.


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## El Veterano (Jan 12, 2015)

John H said:


> Thus, anyone considering SORNing their vehicle on a campsite - either in the UK or elsewhere - would be well-advised to talk to their Insurance company.



Safeguard are perfectly happy to keep my van insured whilst it is under a SORN.


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## El Veterano (Jan 12, 2015)

As I have said before in this thread, the definition of a 'road' can vary immensely. My camper is SORN'd on it's allocated plot within a CaSSOA secure facility and if anyone wants to call that a road they are most welcome. I think as far as the DVLA are concerned it is off the highway and that is all that matters, if it was parked in a street outside my house that would be a different matter altogether.


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## El Veterano (Jan 14, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> Sorry, you can not tax a vehicle monthly. What you can do is pay for it monthly if paid for on direct debit.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vehicle-tax-changes
> If you SORN a vehicle then whatever tax is left on the vehicle will be refunded. When you want to use it on the road again you will have to re-tax it again.
> So to do what you are suggesting . SORN vehicle on last day of month, DVLA will refund any tax that's left to run. T
> ...



I taxed the camper at the end of December on the new monthly direct debit system, to use (unexpectedly) over Christmas in France. When we got back on 28th December I put the camper in it's storage facility and immediately SORN'd it and the direct debit was cancelled. We will next use the camper in February and I will go through the process of taxing it again. It only takes a few minutes anyway. So I suppose that could be construed as taxing it for a month at a time...
However, curiously, when you do this online the web page states that the SORN will begin from the month you are in, in my case December. But the £20 and a bit for Decembers 'rent' remains paid, and not refunded and therefore I consider that to imply that it was taxed for the month of December. But was it taxed AND SORN'd (?) now there's a question.


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## John H (Jan 14, 2015)

El Veterano said:


> As I have said before in this thread, the definition of a 'road' can vary immensely. My camper is SORN'd on it's allocated plot within a CaSSOA secure facility and if anyone wants to call that a road they are most welcome. I think as far as the DVLA are concerned it is off the highway and that is all that matters, if it was parked in a street outside my house that would be a different matter altogether.



True - but as has been stated before, there is case evidence that a campsite can be construed as the highway, in which case the insurance may be invalid if the vehicle is SORNed on a campsite..............which was the original question!


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## snowbirds (Jan 14, 2015)

Hi Campers,

I spent a lot of money taxing my van between coming back from Europe in September over the past 5 years up to May and don't use it,so sorned  it end of December and got £95.00p back better in my bank I think. 6 months from now on and cut the mileage on the Insurance.

Snowbirds.


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## pheasantplucker (Jan 14, 2015)

The Camper said:


> I worded it badly.
> In the good old days (pre October) you needed to display a tax disc making it difficult to SORN it and then re tax it whilst abroad.
> Now as I understand it you can SORN it for a month and then tax it for a month ad infinitum, so why not use the system to work in our favour for a change.




So you go to the continent for 4 weeks and four months later you are still there. The tax reminder letter is on your doormat at home with you premium bond cheque and there is no longer a tax disc to give a reminder in the windscreen and your MoT has run over too. Is a European Mot, if there is such a thing, valid and usable to tax the van from abroad when you it eventually occurs to you?


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## maxi77 (Jan 14, 2015)

pheasantplucker said:


> So you go to the continent for 4 weeks and four months later you are still there. The tax reminder letter is on your doormat at home with you premium bond cheque and there is no longer a tax disc to give a reminder in the windscreen and your MoT has run over too. Is a European Mot, if there is such a thing, valid and usable to tax the van from abroad when you it eventually occurs to you?



On the MOT front here in Portugal the MOT stations can do a UK MOT but it is not acceptable in the UK as they are not VOSA approved and not connected to the VOSA system.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 15, 2015)

El Veterano said:


> I taxed the camper at the end of December on the new monthly direct debit system, to use (unexpectedly) over Christmas in France. When we got back on 28th December I put the camper in it's storage facility and immediately SORN'd it and the direct debit was cancelled. We will next use the camper in February and I will go through the process of taxing it again. It only takes a few minutes anyway. So I suppose that could be construed as taxing it for a month at a time...
> However, curiously, when you do this online the web page states that the SORN will begin from the month you are in, in my case December. But the £20 and a bit for Decembers 'rent' remains paid, and not refunded and therefore I consider that to imply that it was taxed for the month of December. But was it taxed AND SORN'd (?) now there's a question.



The RFL ends at the time of SORN. You can SORN at any future date, on line or by post or telephone, whilst a RFL is in place. The way to have your vehicle tax up to the end of the month is to SORN it from the last day of the month! 

Once SORNed it stays that way until you tax or sell the car.

The way to use the SORN system to TAX your vehicle for a month at a time without loosing money is to tax it for twelve months every time. 

If you do it for six months or by DD you will lose/pay the 'penalty' portion of the payment you have made to use these facilities.

If you pre-book by phone/on-line your vehicle in at a MOT station local to your port of arrival and ask them to record your Vehicle reg then you can travel to that MOT station legally without TAX. Once MOTed you can tax on line using the garages wi-fi and drive home in the knowledge you are fully compliant.


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## kenspain (Jan 15, 2015)

I 2nd that what David said you can not drive it in Spain if you have not got a MOT  :wave: love sunny warm day again


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## John H (Jan 15, 2015)

kenspain said:


> I 2nd that what David said you can not drive it in Spain if you have not got a MOT  :wave: love sunny warm day again



Ditto Ken - but they are forecasting showers for tomorrow morning. Not a word I am familiar with - what does it mean? :rolleyes2::lol-049:


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## The Camper (Jan 15, 2015)

John H said:


> Ditto Ken - but they are forecasting showers for tomorrow morning. Not a word I am familiar with - what does it mean? :rolleyes2::lol-049:



In my book ‘showers’ is the collective noun for motor homers in Spain that brag about the weather :lol-053:


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## kenspain (Jan 15, 2015)

John H said:


> Ditto Ken - but they are forecasting showers for tomorrow morning. Not a word I am familiar with - what does it mean? :rolleyes2::lol-049:



John they only say that to keep that lot happy over there but we could do with some its been so long i forgot what it looks like:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053::wave:


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## iampatman (Jan 15, 2015)

Last rain here in Bolnuevo was 14th December. Showers forecast for tomorrow. That'll save me watering the Poinsettia
Pat


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## Annsman (Jan 15, 2015)

Just to bring this back on topic for a minute.  Someone might have already posted a similar point but I haven't read all 21 pages!

We work for the C&CC and are on a site for at least 6 months of they year, living in our van.  It is insured with Comfort who are informed of the facts.  We also SORN it for the time it is there.  No one at Comfort has told me it can't be SORN-ed and insured at the same time.  They just cover me for fire & theft.

If we do have to leave the site in the van we just tax it on line and away we go.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 15, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> The RFL ends at the time of SORN. You can SORN at any future date, on line or by post or telephone, whilst a RFL is in place. The way to have your vehicle tax up to the end of the month is to SORN it from the last day of the month!
> 
> Once SORNed it stays that way until you tax or sell the car.
> 
> ...




I am not saying one should not be MOTed or taxed at all times whilst abroad. I'm just pointing out what to do if you forget and your MOT runs out and you can not tax before re-entering the UK.


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## Deleted member 38556 (Jan 15, 2015)

So if I wild camp at a pub for more than a month I could save  about 20 quid.  Is it worth the hastle ?


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## John H (Jan 16, 2015)

Annsman said:


> Just to bring this back on topic for a minute.  Someone might have already posted a similar point but I haven't read all 21 pages!
> 
> We work for the C&CC and are on a site for at least 6 months of they year, living in our van.  It is insured with Comfort who are informed of the facts.  We also SORN it for the time it is there.  No one at Comfort has told me it can't be SORN-ed and insured at the same time.  They just cover me for fire & theft.
> 
> If we do have to leave the site in the van we just tax it on line and away we go.



Which demonstrates why it is always important to check with your Insurance Company - because, as was pointed out earlier, the other Club doesn't allow vehicles to be SORNed on site.


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## John H (Jan 16, 2015)

Motorhomelover said:


> So if I wild camp at a pub for more than a month I could save  about 20 quid.  Is it worth the hastle ?



But a pub car park may well be considered the highway for tax and insurance purposes because it is private land to which the public have access. Wherever anyone is thinking of SORNing, other than their own drive or a designated storage area, it is wise to check first.


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 16, 2015)

*Protection of Freedoms Act 2012*

Dr Google turned up this useful site:
John

Public advice for parking on private land


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## John H (Jan 16, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> Dr Google turned up this useful site:
> John
> 
> Public advice for parking on private land



Some useful information - but couldn't find any reference to SORNing.

Edit: oops, sorry David, I started writing my post before yours appeared.


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 16, 2015)

I only said it was useful, and I didn't see the need to start another thread! Anyway, since when have any of you lot had a problem with slight thread diversication?
John


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## antiqueman (Jan 16, 2015)

Motorhomelover said:


> So if I wild camp at a pub for more than a month I could save  about 20 quid.  Is it worth the hastle ?



well its 8 pints in my book:cheers:


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