# Passenger seatbelts in back of motorhome



## alan@heason.net

We have a 20-year old two berth Eriba motorhome in lovely condition.
What is the legal position for carrying a couple of passengers in the back sitting on side-facing seats while moving?
Our local bobby is 'not sure'.
It would not appear possible to attach seat belt anchorages to the side walls which are coach-built aluminium.

Hope someone can advise.

Alan H


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## paulamy

alan@heason.net said:


> We have a 20-year old two berth Eriba motorhome in lovely condition.
> What is the legal position for carrying a couple of passengers in the back sitting on side-facing seats while moving?
> Our local bobby is 'not sure'.
> It would not appear possible to attach seat belt anchorages to the side walls which are coach-built aluminium.
> 
> Hope someone can advise.
> 
> Alan H



hi alan
   i recently got stopped by the police with my daughter in the back sitting sideways with no belt as they are not fitted, i told him she did not need  one as as far as i new they are not allowed to be fitted,he still continued and gave me a fixed penalty notice for the offense. i had to go to court to appeal and ended up winning the ruling was my vehicle was not old enough to be under the regulations whereby you need to where a belt in the back.i think you will find that in  later vehicles  you can only travel in forward facing seats that have belts. mine is registered in 1996 not sure when the change occurs


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## robert b

there is a grey area on the u shaped lounge.   i had an elddis cirrus 1988 and was told its not compulsary to have seat belts in the older models . and its up to the owner .driver,to make sure the passengers are sat down whilst vehicle is in motion . i used to have my two grand children sat in back of mine and no probs .


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## t&s

if there are passenger seat belts fitted in the rear these must be ocupied first and the belts used 
sideways seats dont require them the same as in older minibusses


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## Telstar

*seatbelts*

My understanding is that if there are seatbelts fitted you have to use them.  If there isn't, you don't need them to be seated in the back.  But I think this changes when MHs become whole type approved from 2008 (ish)

To fix seatbelts, you need a properly fixed frame.  Fasting to the 'aluminium' sides will not provide an adequate fixing point, nor just to the wooden floor.

Hope this helps

Jon


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## Deleted member 207

Side facing seats are a real pain for seat belts - manufacturers find it almost impossible to make them comply with impact/dummy tests without major engineering on the vehicle. Lap belts are next to useless - dislocate the hips or break the spine, and the sash/retractables dont react as they are supposed too in an accident - they just keep reeling out and then break lots of bones.

Fixed sash belts work - just, full harness work very well - various Armies use full harness in their troop carrying 6x6 Landrovers and Bushmasters. I've seen a photo of a Perentie Landrover on its side with 5 squaddies still hanging in their harnesses!!

Legally you may not be required to have seat belts - but think how you would feel if someone precious to you gets injured (or worse) for lack of a seat belt.

BTW does your VIN plate list the number of passenger seats?


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## Pioneer

alan@heason.net said:


> We have a 20-year old two berth Eriba motorhome in lovely condition.
> What is the legal position for carrying a couple of passengers in the back sitting on side-facing seats while moving?
> Our local bobby is 'not sure'.
> It would not appear possible to attach seat belt anchorages to the side walls which are coach-built aluminium.
> 
> Hope someone can advise.
> 
> Alan H



Hi Alan,
for your answer try www.lawanswers.co.uk, I have used them before. It's a free service.


Happy Camping


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## Nosha

I think your motorhome is too old to comply. Side facing 'crew' seats do NOT require seat belts, only foward facing seats require belts and then only after a certain age - try the VOSA website for more info.


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## wildman

In the older seatbelt exempt vehicles. If seatbelts are fitted then only that number of passengers can be carried. If no seatbelts are fitted any number can be carried. So be aware fitting one lap belt will restrict you to carrying only one passenger.


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## runnach

Any Vehicle registered on or after 20th October 2007, Must have clearly identified seats with seatbelts for the carriage of passengers in the living area...If a side seat does not have seatbelts then the penalty is a Fixed penalty charge of £30 Should someone be found sat there.

Previous to 20/10/2007 You can sit where you want there is no obligation for seatbelts to be fitted.Which includes side facing seats. 

Channa


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## AndyC

channa said:


> Any Vehicle registered on or after 20th October 2007, Must have clearly identified seats with seatbelts for the carriage of passengers in the living area...If a side seat does not have seatbelts then the penalty is a Fixed penalty charge of £30 Should someone be found sat there.
> 
> Previous to 20/10/2007 You can sit where you want there is no obligation for seatbelts to be fitted.Which includes side facing seats.
> 
> Channa



Can you give me a reference to the legislation that states this?

It's my understanding, and the Department for Transport's, that if all belted seats are occupied it is not an offence to carry passengers in any remaining unbelted seats.

AndyC


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## runnach

AndyC said:


> Can you give me a reference to the legislation that states this?
> 
> It's my understanding, and the Department for Transport's, that if all belted seats are occupied it is not an offence to carry passengers in any remaining unbelted seats.
> 
> AndyC



This hopefully answers your question Andy, For clarification purposes, My comment re Post 2007 vehicles related to side facing seats with no belts.

BTW as you will see in the last paragraph the DOT was consulted in arriving at this interpretation.

For vehicles built up to October 2007 there was no legal requirement to have seat belts fitted to side-facing seats or seats that make up the accommodation area in motor caravans. 
Regulation 46 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended, states motor caravans first used on or after 1st April 1982 but before 1 October 1988 shall be equipped with anchorage points for the driver's seat and specified passenger seat (if any); and for motor caravans first used on or after 1st October 1988 shall be equipped with anchorage points for the driver's seat and any forward-facing front seat. 
You can download a copy of the SI at Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 1043. 
However, this did not preclude manufacturers fitting seat belts to forward facing or rearward facing seats within the accommodation area if they wished to do so. 
Where seat belts are fitted they must be worn. 
Seats in the rear of a campervan/motorhome did not, prior to October 2007, require seatbelts (whether forward, rearward or sideways facing) and it is not illegal to carry unrestrained passengers in them while travelling, providing the vehicle is not overloaded. It is not something we would recommend, however. 
Although current seat belt wearing regulations do not currently prohibit carrying more passengers in vehicles than there are seat belts available, the police may prosecute drivers for carrying passengers in a manner that may injure someone. 
We would advise that no-one should be carried in any unbelted seat in the rear of a motorhome.
An EU Directive (2005/40/EC) on the installation of seat belts required that from 20 October 2007 new vehicles have to have seat belts fitted on all seats except those seats intended solely for use when the vehicle is stationary. 
Where seat belts are fitted, from May 2009, the seat belt wearing Directive will prevent more passengers being carried than there are seat belts in the rear of vehicles. This will mean that from May 2009, in any vehicle of whatever age, where seat belts are fitted in the rear, more passengers may not be carried in the rear than there are seat belts available. 
The critical point for owners of older motorhomes is that it will not become illegal to carry passengers in the rear, provided that no seatbelts are fitted to any seats behind the driver and front passenger seats. Owners of any motorhome that has belts fitted to any seat in the rear will need to be aware that, from May 2009, it will be illegal to carry passengers in any unbelted seats. 
The advisability of carrying unrestrained passengers is another matter, to quote the DfT spokesman: 
'... the police can already act where people in the rear of any vehicle are considered to be carried in a dangerous manner because they are unrestrained. [Owners] should beware of unbelted passengers. In a crash, they can injure others in the vehicle ...'. 
In addition to considering the legal and safety issues involved, owners who intend to carry passengers in unbelted seats must check with their insurers to confirm that this is acceptable to them. 
Our advice is that, regardless of the letter of the law, all passengers should wear seat belts. 
We are indebted to Rohan Pohl and Tom Norman from the Department for Transport for their time and patience in answering all our questions on this subject. 

Regards Channa


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## AndyC

channa said:


> This hopefully answers your question Andy, For clarification purposes, My comment re Post 2007 vehicles related to side facing seats with no belts.
> 
> BTW as you will see in the last paragraph the DOT was consulted in arriving at this interpretation.
> 
> For vehicles built up to October 2007 there was no legal requirement to have seat belts fitted to side-facing seats or seats that make up the accommodation area in motor caravans. <snip>
> Regards Channa



I'm very familiar with the piece you quote, I wrote it 

In fact your quote is not up to date, the DfT have revised their interpretation of the impact of EU legislation, this is reflected in the current version of the article: UKMotorhomes.net - FAQs

However what I was after was a reference to support your claim: 





> If a side seat does not have seatbelts then the penalty is a Fixed penalty charge of £30 Should someone be found sat there.


AndyC


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## runnach

Well that will teach me wont it ?? I felt your article explained in simple terms an interpretation which wasn't too heavy for a casual reader was well written and informative.

On other points of law I have expressed an opinion I have quoted exactly that. However a lot of people have knocked me for ''quoting'' direct transcript.

Hence I succombed to copying and pasting what I considered to be an accurate interpretation.

The source of my information also was from the opinion of the legal team at the Caravan Club. 

FYI, I have posed the question to serving Police officers (trafpol ) and serving magistrates and practising solicitors to establish the attitude beliefs at the sharp end.

I will keep you informed, as and when I am able to collate feedback.

Regards 

Channa


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## AndyC

channa said:


> Well that will teach me wont it ?? I felt your article explained in simple terms an interpretation which wasn't too heavy for a casual reader was well written and informative.


Thanks  It's hard to put over in easily understandable terms what is often quite complex legislation, the implications of which for 'unusual' vehicles like motorhomes not even the government departments responsible appear to fully comprehend!

It took several weeks of questioning the DfT to get the information together to  enable me to write the piece, then they move the goalposts!


> FYI, I have posed the question to serving Police officers (trafpol ) and serving magistrates and practising solicitors to establish the attitude beliefs at the sharp end.
> 
> I will keep you informed, as and when I am able to collate feedback.


Yes, please do!

AndyC


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## runnach

Firstly thank you for your understanding that we both share the same agenda i.e to provide a definitive where possible and considered interpretation of the law as it stands ( not necessarily how we would like it to be).

I have a question for you re your reference to carrying passengers unbelted and informing insurers.

Why ? ...I am sure you are aware insurance is a contract of utmost good faith etc ..and material facts need to be disclosed that may influence an insurers acceptance of risk so that they can either accept / reject the risk and charge premium accordingly.

But passengers carried pre 2007 MH's in the living accomodation dont require seat belts ? Agreed ? Insurers are aware of this so why inform them ?

Other than cover your backside technology ?

I promise I am not asking a smart arsed question, But I am interested in why you feel i tis necessary to inform an insurer.

Channa

Btw ...there is an irony to this thread on my part...I never carry rear passengers ..Just me and the hound !!!


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## AndyC

channa said:


> I have a question for you re your reference to carrying passengers unbelted and informing insurers.
> 
> Why ? ...I am sure you are aware insurance is a contract of utmost good faith etc ..and material facts need to be disclosed that may influence an insurers acceptance of risk so that they can either accept / reject the risk and charge premium accordingly.
> 
> But passengers carried pre 2007 MH's in the living accomodation dont require seat belts ? Agreed ? Insurers are aware of this so why inform them ?
> 
> Other than cover your backside technology ?


Well, it is partly the latter, I'm well aware that in producing a page of information relating to safety issues and legislation it is necessary, these days, to 'cover your backside' as far as possible! However the subject of informing insurers came up shortly after I published the piece, when I was contacted by someone who claimed that their insurance required that all passengers  must wear seatbelts. I therefore added the paragraph, to be on the safe side. 

AndyC


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## traveller353

*Seatbelts in motorhome*



paulamy said:


> hi alan
> i recently got stopped by the police with my daughter in the back sitting sideways with no belt as they are not fitted, i told him she did not need  one as as far as i new they are not allowed to be fitted,he still continued and gave me a fixed penalty notice for the offense. i had to go to court to appeal and ended up winning the ruling was my vehicle was not old enough to be under the regulations whereby you need to where a belt in the back.i think you will find that in  later vehicles  you can only travel in forward facing seats that have belts. mine is registered in 1996 not sure when the change occurs


Hi Paulamy
Could you please give me details of your court case that you won as this would be very helpful if stopped by the police as I have an older motorhome with bench seats in the rear and you never know when you are going to be pulled over by a Jobsworth.
Thanks Mick


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## Deleted member 775

i checked with the dept of transport and was told i could not carry my grandkids in my van  untill they were 3 years old , as there are no belts fitted in the rear .the baby car seats must be secured with 3 point seat belts only ,lap belts will not do  and as i cannot fit the required belts in my van it has to go , i cannot even put them in the front seat area as it is only fitted with 2 single seats   if i fitted a double seat set up in the front  that would mean my wife and daughter sitting in the rear , totaly unsafe .no seat belts and the only thing between them and a rear shunt is a bit of ally and timber  so she has to go  the van that is  its on ebay now also i have noticed on my insurance cert the van is classed as a two seater strange  i have never seen this before


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