# layby fee dodgers



## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19046207,oh well off to wales !


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 30, 2012)

n brown said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19046207,oh well off to wales !



The link don't work matey:sad:


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## Sparks (Jul 30, 2012)

Post deleted


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

Sparks said:


> BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall
> 
> 
> "Strictly speaking"? If that's the stance of the C&CC then it looks like they will be losing a member here!



thanks for that sparks


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## iceman1956 (Jul 30, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> The link don't work matey:sad:




Try This BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall

Just found the page, when will these so called campsite owners realise that we don't want to park on a site, I for one would upset more people by starting up my MH at 2:30am to go out to catch the sunrise. I want to be within  the shortest distance possible to where I am going.


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 30, 2012)

Ta  I have it now.   Don't that woman realise that most mororhomers wouldn't go to her over priced site even under pain of death.  Even more so now.


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## John H (Jul 30, 2012)

Sparks said:


> BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall
> 
> 
> "Strictly speaking"? If that's the stance of the C&CC then it looks like they will be losing a member here!



The Caravan Club and the C&CC may have started off as members clubs but they are now big business and, like all the other caravan site owners, they are more interested in profit than representing "members". What I can't get over is that these people don't realise that if they ban us from wildcamping we are not going to flood onto their campsites but, instead, we will go somewhere more welcoming - like France! If they are right and tourism income is down then they won't do anything to increase it by this kind of attitude. When will they realise that for virtually no outlay they can increase potential custom? We may not be a mass market but we do provide some income and they don't have to do anything to earn it - except welcome us.


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## ellisboy (Jul 30, 2012)

50 camper vans parked up in the afternoon all Camping free of charge! :scared: Its an outrage! They should have been On Mrs Watts site paying £25 odd a night.They should be dragged from their vans and shot shouldn't they! Her bookings being down 60% have nothing to do with the weather then, or people having much less disposable income due to the recession.Since when has it been against the law to park in a lay by in the daytime?


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

hi .think its fair to say cornwall doesnt want tourists .it wants to go back to stand and deliver. get to the cornwall devon border you tip all your money out and belongings .then a masked highwayman picks it up and you go on your way back where you came from . 
been like it for years . its just took for granted now that folk will visit . 
but never mind more room for us locals .hee hee .


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> Ta  I have it now.   Don't that woman realise that most mororhomers wouldn't go to her over priced site even under pain of death.  Even more so now.



well i thought she sounded nice and 60 or 70 quid a night is nothing to one as fabulously wealthy as moi.plus the satisfaction of knowing i am helping this creature fleece the revolting grockles will help me sleep at night,even on her stupidly over priced patch of grass. on second thoughts i'm off to wales,where even as an english,i'm considered human


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## Deleted member 13543 (Jul 30, 2012)

Just read the article and just love the way Suzy Watts blames wildcampers for the loss in revenue!! I mean, it can't POSSIBLY be down to the weather we've had, or her prices, could it?? 

(£18.95 per/night for 2 people, + Mains electric hook-up, charged at £4.50 per/night + Dogs, per dog, charged at 2.00 per/night + Extra person (over the age of 2), charged at £2.00 per/night + Awning, charged at £1.00 per/night)

I'm suprised that Suzy Watts hasn't called for a ban on the 2 Clubs Holiday Rallies, as this must be taking trade away from the regular campsites as well?  Strange how the campsites that allow the Clubs to use them for their rallies don't seem to object to the lower fees they are getting.

I AM bothered by the comment of Su Nicolas, the councillor for Marazion, who said that "These people are disposing of waste on the beach and on the RSPB site. We have had about 30 complaints from members of the public."  I just hope this is an exaggeration, and that it is definitely not their cassettes they are emptying on the beach!! 

The MHs parking on the front at Marazion always have been a bone of contention, even to the point of vandalism occuring. Personally, I wouldn't like to park there, as it is very close to the road, but I can see the attraction, - lovely view!!  

I just hope Cornwall doesn't become a no-go area for Wildcampers!!


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## oldish hippy (Jul 30, 2012)

so we all go to cornwall stay on a site then what do we do for transport  i know  we use the motorhome as we have driven it there and dont have a car for transport hence we are in marizon for the afternoon


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## John H (Jul 30, 2012)

kernowprickles said:


> I AM bothered by the comment of Su Nicolas, the councillor for Marazion, who said that "These people are disposing of waste on the beach and on the RSPB site. We have had about 30 complaints from members of the public."  I just hope this is an exaggeration, and that it is definitely not their cassettes they are emptying on the beach!!



I have no doubt that the council has had had complaints but I do doubt that too many of the objectors have actually seen people dropping waste rather than just making assumptions that fit their prejudices. I am sure we have all seen other motorhomers dropping casette waste etc where they shouldn't and unfortunately we all get tarred with the same brush. As with complaints against travellers, Roma etc, it doesn't matter what the silent majority do; all that matters is that some people are determined to get rid of us and they will use the example of the few to ban the rest.


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

what made me laugh is the thought of cornish landowners banging on motorhome doors and shouting' git orn moi laaand! '


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## Canalsman (Jul 30, 2012)

_Ian Geddes, from the Camping and Caravan Club, said: "Strictly speaking they shouldn't be doing it. The local police have the power to move them on. We'd rather motor home owners didn't do it."_

Since when do the police have the power to move people on in this situation?

Surely that's only true if they're breaching a Traffic Regulation Order? ( Rhetorical question, by the way, before we resurrect that old chestnut  )

Shows just how out of touch organisations such as his are ...


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## groyne (Jul 30, 2012)

> Mrs Watts said: "Last week I was horrified to see more than 50 camper vans, parked up in the afternoon, all camping free of charge.



That's only Mrs Watts interpretation of what she saw.

Doesn't she realise that most Motorhomers use their vans to drive around the area they are staying in, visiting the local beauty spots. We are not the same as Campers and Caravaners who leave their abodes in a field while they drive to the attractions. It's possible, even probable, that a lot of the vans were only parked up for the afternoon and later moved on to park elsewhere, even on overpriced campsites. 
And even if they didn't move on, as long as they were Taxed, Tested, Insured, parked leagally and the owners weren't abusing the area, it has nothing to do with her. 

What she should be doing is figuring out we we aren't using her site, not trying to get the local council to make up more rules for them to police and trying force us onto her site (which would never happen).


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## maingate (Jul 30, 2012)

This lady campsite owner is not the least bit bothered that her occupancy rate is well down, it is what she wants. That way, she can convince the local Council that she needs 'change of use', put Static caravans on the land and make more money. They are the real moneyspinner.

She will have occupancy of 11 months of the year (no high season and low season). Once it is full, she can put up prices. We looked into these sort of sites when thinking of downsizing and really got our eyes opened at what really goes on. They have loads of petty rules which affect owners unduly. We have spoken to a number of residents who are in the process of getting out or have already done so. A number of people cannot afford to do so and are well and truly stuck. I expect that there are good sites as well but it is a minefield.

If you go on Google Earth and scan down the East Yorkshire coast, you will see how these sites have taken off.

This lady will probably keep her Tipis ..... wouldn't you at £60 per night.


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## tiderus (Jul 30, 2012)

As I am currently managing a chalet park to help a friend out here in Aberdovey. 

Out of about 15 lett-able chalets, only one was pre booked this week.

A few stragerlers have booked since the weekend, mainly for a few days only.

This I'm afraid is a sign of the times. Normaly there is an overspill for the main 8 weeks.

Hearing today from the government of a much belated triple dip in the economy.

If they are right and things tighten up even more. 

I recon these site owners will have to look elsewhere to supliment their income?

May be even putting functions on for us to spend on their site.

They certainly are being complacent by just winging.

We don't go where were not wanted Lads do we....


Places like Woolacombe Bay are certainly bombarding me on the net with offers.

And why not, its my choice whether I choose to take them up, like I have in the past.

Find out which way business is going, and cater for it.

How many times have you heard that it was ok for my father, and his father before him.

Don't these people realise that business is constantly changing.

If you don't...... Welcome to durasic park?


 For an eg...... I was trained by the yanks in sales, they couldn't believe how we sell things.

They returned one day from the town saying, you would'nt believe how they sell cars here.

They have a show room and wait for people to come along to buy.

When I asked how do you do it they replied.

First identify your target market, who is likely to buy a new car.

People whose car is 18 months to three years old.

Then go around the town inviting them with the right redge, to a champane party with there wifes.

As a free try in the new model. This you do with a leaflet under the wiper.

After they arrive and are treated well, invited to a test run.

You ask why don't they have a new car. The answer in usually the money.

Well our boss said he hadn't a case that he could'nt beat what they were paying now, plus they will have soon to start paying out on repaires!

No Hassel, think of the prestige of having a new car, for less that you are paying now.

Must have the little lady with you though? sit her in it, Hmmm.

Ten years with them taught me a lot, They said it increases sales ten fold.

Get on your bike now! seem a good idea.

Rgd's Graham.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

i have to say that I find some of the comments in this thread absolutely appalling. And if this is how some members on here act in public it's no wonder that we are disliked by so many people.

What has happened? Like many popular spots certain areas are becoming overrun with dozens of motorhomes. These people are not out in the wild, discreetly parked away from anyone, but in lay-bys close to, or even in, holiday resorts. Yet there are many on here who simply cannot see anything wrong with this, who totally fail to understand why we are so disliked and in some case, equated with travellers. Yes, they know that we are not actually travellers but they hold us in the same kind of contempt that many people, rightly or wrongly, have for travellers. All that matters to some of you is that we are allowed to park just anywhere we like without hindrance. Can you imagine what this little island would be like if anyone could just park up a motorhome, and if a motorhome, why not a car and caravan, just anywhere? In any lay-by, in any residential street or on any promenade in a seaside town?

But the worst thing of all in this thread is the utter bile directed at this site owner. She has a business to run and why shouldn't she be allowed to express her view? We don't have to agree with her but to says things like this is despicable:

_Don't that woman realise that most mororhomers wouldn't go to her over priced site even under pain of death. Even more so now.

well i thought she sounded nice and 60 or 70 quid a night is nothing to one as fabulously wealthy as moi.plus the satisfaction of knowing i am helping this creature fleece the revolting grockles will help me sleep at night,even on her stupidly over priced patch of grass. on second thoughts i'm off to wales,where even as an english,i'm considered human._

The people who made these comments actually had no idea what her prices are and the £50-70 a night is just ludicrous. It turns out that her site charges about £25 a night, which is a lot less than many in France for instance.

But 'Helping this 'creature' fleece the revolting grockles'. That's a revolting comment. Who are these grockles? Do you mean ordinary families having holidays in Cornwall? Does the author of these words somehow think himself superior to ordinary, hard-working people who choose to use camp sites, probably because they have children and wish to have a base with all the facilities?

This thread has made me ashamed of wild-campers. If I thought that the comments on here were typical of all wild campers I would leave this site tonight. 

Why are some of you allowed to argue your case for wild camping, but this 'creature' isn't allowed to have her say? You may not agree with her but you have no right to insult and demean her. Shame on you all!


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## Sparks (Jul 30, 2012)

Post deleted


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## John H (Jul 30, 2012)

Northerner said:


> But the worst thing of all in this thread is the utter bile directed at this site owner.



If she expresses herself as "horrified" and is campaigning for a change to the parking regulations then she must expect people to get upset. Let me put it this way - if a restaurant owner said he was horrified by the number of people sitting on the beach eating their own food instead of going to his restaurant, what would you expect the reaction to be? Apart from anything else, it is not good business to annoy people you see as potential customers. Perhaps they should direct their efforts to promotions and deals that might bring a few of us onto their sites.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

basildog said:


> I am sorry to burst your bubble but having spent a lot of time in Cornwall they really do talk about tourists with contempt calling them Groclkes !
> I have friends in Wiltshire who have a campsite and yes they really do say we F ing hate campers !
> That is real life for you



Don't worry about my bubble! My uncle had a very popular pub and hotel in Porth, near Newquay, (The Cornish Chough) where I spent a lot of time and they talked about grockles, but it wasn't a term of contempt. Grockles just mean incomers or foreigners and my uncle had a great relationship with his clients, many of whom returned year after year. And he was not a 'creature' who fleeced the grockles!

What gets me, and we see it time and time again on here, is if anyone, a councillor, or a camp site owner, dares to complain about what they consider excessive wild camping in holiday resorts, they are subjected to the lowest form of bar-room abuse and utterly denigrated for daring to have an opinion that may differ from some of the members on here.

We are are own worst enemies.


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

hi northener . just to enlighten you grockles are holiday makers in devon .here we call them emmits . 
doesnt matter how you holiday here you are and will be an emmit . someone else got it wrong .hee hee.
there used to be non emmit stickers for locals to put on their vehicles . hopefully we got a cheaper icecream or cheaper carpark etc . 
its how it is . 
also you cant get 50 vans on the sea front in marazion ,but many do park just up the road in a couple of laybys. actually hardly any are really in a town or at a tourist spot . yes a few park oposite st michaels mount . but most are up out of the way on the other places . 
but dun hee worry .just tip your cash up by jamaica inn . we shall share it out dreckly . 
have a good un .thankee kind sir.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

vwalan said:


> hi northener . just to enlighten you grockles are holiday makers in devon .here we call them emmits .
> doesnt matter how you holiday here you are and will be an emmit . someone else got it wrong .hee hee.
> there used to be non emmit stickers for locals to put on their vehicles . hopefully we got a cheaper icecream or cheaper carpark etc .
> its how it is .
> ...



My uncle used the term grockle and also emmits. The emmits were the ones on the beaches, because as you looked down on them they looked like ants. And emmit is a term for ants. But he never had any contempt for his clients. Certainly not the kind of contempt shown on here for anyone who dares to speak out against motorhomers thinking that they have a God-given right to park just where ever they like.


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## QFour (Jul 30, 2012)

Hi All

Just back from the SOUTH WEST

We had a great time. Used a lot of CL Sites some as little as £4 a night one £15 a night. We spent a night at Pendennis Point ( Free ) and a night in Kyance Cove ( National Trust Car Park ) water in the toilet block but the tap in the gents has the handle removed. You can lift the lid of the drain round the back of the toilet block after 5pm ..  also had a couple of overnights in pub car parks.

Not as expensive as it could have been worked out at under £8 a night and we were away for a month.

Ian


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## Rubbertramp (Jul 30, 2012)

basildog said:


> having spent a lot of time in Cornwall they really do talk about tourists with contempt calling them Groclkes !


It's Emmets Charlie, Emmets....a Cornish language derivation of the word for ants but unlike those industrious and tidy insects many of them act in a pretty despicable way while on their holidays in my homeland. Drunkenness is commonplace as is the litter strewn all over the beaches, harbours and town centres. Manners and respect for local people are rare in my experience. Maybe it is because they are reacting to being ripped off, who knows? But I do know that they are disliked intensely by local people....including many of those who work for the minimum wage in the tourist industry and only welcomed by the business owners who know what a fast buck they represent as each July comes around.


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## John H (Jul 30, 2012)

Northerner said:


> ......... the kind of contempt shown on here for anyone who dares to speak out against motorhomers thinking that they have a God-given right to park just where ever they like.



You speak as if we are asking for something special. We are not. We only want to park our vehicles where other people are allowed to park their cars - and without being insulted by businessmen who are looking for somebody to blame for their poor business figures.


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

hi, we have to smile and be nice when taking their money .also if you are nice they may spend abit more . but dont worry we dont really like tourists or holiday makers of any sort. ha ha just the money . 
think most tourist places are like it. but its not really meant to be nasty . many have been coming for years . you know what they drink before they order . they love that. i worked a summer on a campsite plus my brother had a couple of pubs . think its all part of the life. most landlords dont like folk going to spain and bringing back cheap booze or fags . or going up country to get cheaper cars than down here. 
smile its candid camera . 
i also lived at weymouth similar there as well.


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

having spent an absolutely appalling 2 weeks in cornwall where i was physically threatened by the bully boys of marazion,who called me a ****ing liar in front of my family,and being overcharged and treated with contempt by the locals of this county i think using a little irony to highlight the sheer greed of some of these operators forgiveable .seeing them shoot themselves in the foot suits me fine,of course if you're related you would never have experienced this treatment


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 30, 2012)

60% loss of income?  Is that down to motorhomers?  Most of her trade is statics as I read it


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

n brown said:


> having spent an absolutely appalling 2 weeks in cornwall where i was physically threatened by the bully boys of marazion,who called me a ****ing liar in front of my family,and being overcharged and treated with contempt by the locals of this county i think using a little irony to highlight the sheer greed of some of these operators forgiveable .seeing them shoot themselves in the foot suits me fine,of course if you're related you would never have experienced this treatment



It's very odd that you stayed a fortnight then if it was so awful? Why didn't you go somewhere else if it was that terrible?  I thought that was the advantage of a motorhome?

I'm not sure how you approach other people but I have never even been treated with contempt by anyone. On the contrary, we were in Marazion last year, just for the afternoon and the people in the shop were I bought a newspaper and the shop where we bought pasties were cheerful and friendly. 

And there was no irony in your attack on the lady in question. It was an insulting and despicable attack on a woman doing nothing more than expressing her view. To describe her as a 'creature fleecing her customers was, in my opinion, disgraceful'.


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## maingate (Jul 30, 2012)

Personally, I cannot see the attraction of a seaside town in High season, I like a bit of space around me.

We are currently using a THS on the Northumbrian coast and exercise the dogs on bamburgh beach. A number of motorhomes are overnighting but only for one night. There is however one motorhome that has been there for about 5 nights now. I do not know how they are getting water and I dread to think what they are doing with their toilet waste. Every morning when I see that they are still there, I get a stronger urge to go over and punch him. These are the idiots who ruin it for the sensible ones.


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## Ems (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm off to Devon next week, and then onto Cornwall - you are making me have second thoughts!  Only planning one night in Cornwall, visiting Landsend just because I've never been there, it can't be much worse than John'O'Groats!  Wish me luck with the locals!  I'm staying on a campsite in Devon with family so I should be safe there! :lol-053:


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## Rubbertramp (Jul 30, 2012)

Ems said:


> I'm off to Devon next week, and then onto Cornwall - you are making me have second thoughts!  Only planning one night in Cornwall, visiting Landsend just because I've never been there, it can't be much worse than John'O'Groats!  Wish me luck with the locals!  I'm staying on a campsite in Devon with family so I should be safe there! :lol-053:



Land's End is just like John o' Groats...only with more plastic:goodluck:


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

Ems said:


> I'm off to Devon next week, and then onto Cornwall - you are making me have second thoughts!  Only planning one night in Cornwall, visiting Landsend just because I've never been there, it can't be much worse than John'O'Groats!  Wish me luck with the locals!  I'm staying on a campsite in Devon with family so I should be safe there! :lol-053:



You'll have a great time. Treat people nicely and in my experience they always treat you the same! I had a week near Truro last year on a rally for a club I'm in and everyone was very nice. People tend to exaggerate a bit on here I'm afraid.


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

well you will miss out .lots to see in cornwall . tinmines ,beam engines . ,amazing china clay area . plus beaches to die for .surf on the north coast snorkelling on the south. ancient stones and history . only one night . you really are missing out . lots of places to stop . best not near marazion but in many other places its ok .just not in newquay as it gets so many surfers doing it they get abit upset there as well.


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## Ems (Jul 30, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> Land's End is just like John o' Groats...only with more plastic:goodluck:



I just feel I need to visit at least once to see for myself


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 30, 2012)

Northerner said:


> It's very odd that you stayed a fortnight then if it was so awful? Why didn't you go somewhere else if it was that terrible?  I thought that was the advantage of a motorhome?
> 
> I'm not sure how you approach other people but I have never even been treated with contempt by anyone. On the contrary, we were in Marazion last year, just for the afternoon and the people in the shop were I bought a newspaper and the shop where we bought pasties were cheerful and friendly.
> 
> And there was no irony in your attack on the lady in question. It was an insulting and despicable attack on a woman doing nothing more than expressing her view. To describe her as a 'creature fleecing her customers was, in my opinion, disgraceful'.




n brown was relating a personal experience. Surely you can't berate him for that.


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

because at that time i had better opinion of people,i ventured further into the place thinking that it was just unlucky,meeting such rude and aggressive people,by the time i got to lands end i couldn't afford to go elsewhere.i think,considering the way were treated,i'm being quite mild. first night there,being unforgivably poor,parked in a layby.next morning drove into the car park where the attendant demanded an overnight fee,as my bonnet was cold.why on earth am i explaining myself ?thats it


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## Ems (Jul 30, 2012)

vwalan said:


> well you will miss out .lots to see in cornwall . tinmines ,beam engines . ,amazing china clay area . plus beaches to die for .surf on the north coast snorkelling on the south. ancient stones and history . only one night . you really are missing out . lots of places to stop . best not near marazion but in many other places its ok .just not in newquay as it gets so many surfers doing it they get abit upset there as well.



I've seen alot of Cornwall, used to go every year but never made it to Landsend.  I don't have many days holiday left so will enjoy the drive down and drive through places I used to stay for a quick look.


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## Lee (Jul 30, 2012)

vwalan said:


> hi, we have to smile and be nice when taking their money .also if you are nice they may spend abit more . but dont worry we dont really like tourists or holiday makers of any sort. ha ha just the money .
> think most tourist places are like it. but its not really meant to be nasty . many have been coming for years . you know what they drink before they order . they love that. i worked a summer on a campsite plus my brother had a couple of pubs . think its all part of the life. most landlords dont like folk going to spain and bringing back cheap booze or fags . or going up country to get cheaper cars than down here.
> smile its candid camera .
> i also lived at weymouth similar there as well.



If this is all true I can understand why motorhomes are not liked in Cornwall, as a lot of them are not spending as much money as the locals want, maybe they havn't the funds to do so.
What a cinical way to run your life and if you are running a business what a short sighted out look they have on life as surely they need repeat business to be successful.:mad1:


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 30, 2012)

Ems said:


> I just feel I need to visit at least once to see for myself


Take no notice Ems.  Different eyes see different things. You will probably have a great time.  According to some on here the world is full of nasty bar stewards, which of course it isn't


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> n brown was relating a personal experience. Surely you can't berate him for that.



I didn't berate him regarding his personal experience. I simply asked him a couple of questions because I found it most odd that he was having what must have been a most appalling and miserable time, but he stayed a fortnight?

However, I did berate him for what I thought were disgraceful and uninformed comments about the lady with the camp site. I find it quite amusing that one member talks about sites in Cornwall being £50-70 a night (really?) and within minutes this lady is charging these prices! It actually turns out that she charges about £25 a night, in Cornwall, in high season! Have any of you ever noticed what camp sites in Spain, and France and Italy charge in high season?


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## John H (Jul 30, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Have any of you ever noticed what camp sites in Spain, and France and Italy charge in high season?



But these countries also provide aires (or at the very least areas where overnighting is tolerated) so not only do we have a choice but the local area is maximising the potential number of customers. England seems to have a far higher percentage of businessmen who think they have to do nothing to get our custom.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

LeeLinda said:


> If this is all true I can understand why motorhomes are not liked in Cornwall, as a lot of them are not spending as much money as the locals want, maybe they havn't the funds to do so.
> What a cinical way to run your life and if you are running a business what a short sighted out look they have on life as surely they need repeat business to be successful.:mad1:



You ask the question 'If this is all true' and then go on to make comments based on the fact that it must be! Cornwall is no different from France, or Spain or any other place with holiday resorts. They have short seasons and must make most of their money in a few weeks. They may be open in the quieter months but it's just ticking over, and rates and staff still have to be paid. For some though every business is a licence to print money, no one ever goes broke, we all make a fortune and spend six moths of the year on our yachts. I just wonder why they don't go into business themselves if it's so easy! Go on folks, anyone can do it!

And these people are not idiots. Businessmen know that it is much easier to retain clients by looking after them, then it is to attract new ones. The standard of service in hotels and restaurants and camp sites is far higher than it was twenty years ago. With revue sites such as Trip Advisor, a business can be killed by negative reviews.


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## n brown (Jul 30, 2012)

oh please go to landsend !looking back now it's almost funny.at the time of course it was a special treat for my family on a very tight budget. what a ripoff!great brochure mind,fooled us for sure.i was physically moved away from the stupid signpost when i inadvertently stood near it for a photo,for,of course,once you've paid to go in,everything inside has to be paid for as well ! iwas glad and surprised there wasn't an exit fee


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

i did and never looked back . much better than working for others . stopped working in winter since 98 . had a few off before that. but in summer its long hours in winter its summer in spain or maroc.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

basildog said:


> Just check on the net as Haven and many others are in that price range ,
> I expect there are cheaper too



First of all Havens are not the average sites. They are holiday villages with swimming pools, children's playgrounds, entertainment complexes etc. I have just priced a week in Cornwall at Perran Sands. The cost was £260 for a pitch with electricity and space for an awning. As you said, go on-line and try it! That works out at £37 per night but that is for two adults and two children! The thing about this kind of site is that they are not for people staying one night. They are for families on holiday for a week or a fortnight and like hotels, they may have a 'rack rate' of £50-60 a night but no one ever pays it as they do offers for seven days or longer etc.

But all this is pretty irrelevant. Some families obviously consider £38 a night very good value. They get a pool, free entertainment, clubs for the children and if they had to book the four of them in a hotel offering those facilities it would be a great deal more. When I tried to book, Haven had one pitch left, so people must be happy to pay! 

But do you really think that similar sites in France for instance are any cheaper? I can assure you that they're not. And whilst you and I wouldn't like sites like this they are ideal for families with young children and we should stop insulting people because their holiday choices are different from ours.


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## Northerner (Jul 30, 2012)

basildog said:


> I am sorry but that is soooo not tue it is about a captive market a lot of the time !
> I took my Kids to a well known and popular campsite several years ago after spending 3 years in court battles to be allowed the privellage and the food was not fit for a dog !
> We all prdered different things and one meal really did look like sick on a plate , as I did not want to spoil the kids time I kept quiet but even te kids said daddy that was a waste of money it was horrible !
> I like good food and am prepared to pay for it but maybe the average person eats that muck I do not know ?



You really do have a penchant for the most grotesque exaggeration don't you! So this means of course that every single camp site with a restaurant serves food that's like sick on a plate! You really don't do yourself any good with this kind of hyperbole you know! It's just hilarious.

I remember how, because one or two rich people paid you with a cheque from a foreign bank that *every* rich person uses foreign banks and *every* rich person has his house in trust. How do you know these things? Are you privy to the financial affairs of *every* rich person in Britain! Are you privy to the catering in *every* camp site restaurant? As I said, it's beyond hilarious! :raofl:


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

hi .i worked at hayle and perran sands .but before haven leisure took over it was a ladbrooks site back in 76. very busy both of them . i still meet with a few of the groups that played there . was definately an experiance .as a barman . definately not like the david essex and ringo star version of it .ha ha . but you did get an incite into the caravan crowd . i actually worked a few weeks on st ives bay caravan park the year layter . all good fun .


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## Firefox (Jul 30, 2012)

It astounds me how naive these campsite owners are:

(a) The wild campers are not likely to use their facilities anyway. So banning parking will not give their sites any more business, but it will damage the local economy whereby the motorhomes were using local shops for their provisions and no doubt patronising local pubs and restaurants too. Campsite business is 60% down because of the wet weather not a few wild campers in a layby. 

and 

(b) It's a market. Campsites offer one thing for £25 or £30 with electric hooks ups and other on site facilities. Wild camping offers no facilities for no money. It's simple. Campsite owners demanding a monopoly is like the bakers demanding that the council should ban other places from selling pizza or pasta, in the hope that more people will buy their bread! They should be concentrating on making their bread cheaper and more attractive instead of whining about the alternative choices.


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## maingate (Jul 30, 2012)

This lady charges £4.50 per day for a hookup on her site. If someone stayed there for one year, I make that £1642.50 for a hookup of 13 amps max., possibly as low as 10 amps. it would cost a further £2 per day for a dog (£730).

Did you know that it is illegal to re-sell electricity at a higher price than you pay for it. Virtually every campsite in the counry is guilty of this. Because campers only stay for very short periods, it goes unnoticed. Stay long term and it is very expensive. My total Gas AND Electric bills for the year fall well short of the cost of one miserable hookup on a site.

I also noticed on her website that a dog costs £3 per day if you are in a Static caravan. Why the £1 extra?


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

i shouldnt worry about it .if i didnt use m,home sites i wouldnt have known its kicked off again .really only a handfull complain ..yes we do get fed up of tourists but most dont give a monkeys where you park. bet 90%of cornish residents dont even care or know its going on. its a cornish joke about bringing back the highway men and taking folks money and turning them round at the border . bit like smuggling its a tradition . 
but its not all bad .the boys look for the girls . the girls here look for the boys on holiday . again its tradition . 
we also have a saying . only do too things in cornwall . fishing n f---ing , in winter cant fish coz of the storms . in summer cant fish coz we gotta f--- the emmits .
 again tradition. best not take life so serious . but you do have to thank the cornish for deep mining . might not have been the industrial revolution if it wasnt for the cornish .


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## maureenandtom (Jul 30, 2012)

Until a short time ago, I'd have seen this as an opportunity.   A golden opportunity, almost.  

Just this evening there was a similar report about Haverigg in Cumbria.  Another opportunity.  There's an almost automatic response for us to think of Aires on the continental model and here is the opportunity to talk to the local authorities in both areas of the advantages of providing Aires.  A golden opportunity. 

Beginning with press reports, Scarborough and Whitby expressed the same problems as in Cumbria and Cornwall;  pretty well the same; we needn't argue the details and eventually their council, with encouragement, provided Aires.  

Then, overwhelmingly, many here, said that we wouldn't use them and poured contempt on the council. I sometimes feel despair.  What exactly do we want?

The Golden Age of parking where we want is coming to an end.  It's probably over; I see signs that it's coming to an end in our beloved Promised Land of France too.   

Not long ago, I'd have written to these newspapers in Cumbria and Cornwall;  I might then have contacted the councils.  

An opportunity.  Nobody else see it like that?


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## vwalan (Jul 30, 2012)

yes ,its been done .but cornwall works on a few months of the year provides enough to see many through the winter. 
they arent daft .cornwall as had possibly the most m,homers in a county always . we also know that they dont actually spend very much .
super markets for food . cooking in thre vans etc . cornwall council just dont care they do have campsites every where there view is use them . newquay as night security going round knocking on campers that they think have folk sleeping .on the hour every hour till you get fed up. other towns also do it . cornwall as been camper city for years .


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## northernspirit2001 (Jul 30, 2012)

*Devon too...*

I've just got back from a week in Devon, started out I planned to go to 3 museums and 2 castles and stop on a site if i could mid week to recharge batteries. It took me 1 1/2 days to realise its almost without exception MH's are hated there, from the way people drive, park around you, glare at you, even look the other way while taking your money in garages (thats before i filled up my water lol!, it did cost me 60p in the machine!). Everything is about extracting max money for least value and MH's are the scum of the earth it seems. The number of people who carved me up in traffic jams on the road, well they've obviously never been up north 'cos people who do that up here get a thump! Got horn blown (plus mucky look) at me twice whilst parked up IN THE DAY! 

I did have the last laugh tho, had a great time, went in one museum, had one take-away, walked round the outside of the castles and even got mis-changed in a shop when the cashier gave me change for a £20 when i'd only given her a £10.....HA!


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## iceman1956 (Jul 30, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and as with the new Points system you should not abuse another member, or should you berate someone who is not able to defend their point of view. 
As for campsite prices yes they are overpriced for what you get, and can anyone really defend £4.50 night for electric!! and standby that is not a rip off. No you don't have to take the hookup if you don't want, but by the same token is it right to charge excessively because you can. :mad2:

There will always be the few who spoil it for the majority, and that is an unfortunate fact. But banning motorhomes from towns will not cure the problem. Councils should regulate by making approved parking area's that do allow overnight sleeping and which is also limited to 2-3 days as a maximum. Lets face it you usually have seen all you want to in a couple of days, so let someone else also have the pleasure.  :mad1:


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## maingate (Jul 30, 2012)

iceman1956 said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and as with the new Points system you should not abuse another member, or should you berate someone who is not able to defend their point of view.
> As for campsite prices yes they are overpriced for what you get, and can anyone really defend £4.50 night for electric!! and standby that is not a rip off. No you don't have to take the hookup if you don't want, but by the same token is it right to charge excessively because you can. :mad2:
> 
> There will always be the few who spoil it for the majority, and that is an unfortunate fact. But banning motorhomes from towns will not cure the problem. Councils should regulate by making approved parking area's that do allow overnight sleeping and which is also limited to 2-3 days as a maximum. Lets face it you usually have seen all you want to in a couple of days, so let someone else also have the pleasure.  :mad1:



I am afraid that a hookup is compulsory at virtually every campsite in the country nowadays. It is getting harder to get a pitch that is not called 'fully serviced' and therefore more expensive. I could be wrong of course as this is just information I have seen posted on forums. The nearest I get to a site is a THS with the C & CC.


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## iceman1956 (Jul 31, 2012)

northernspirit2001 said:


> I've just got back from a week in Devon, started out I planned to go to 3 museums and 2 castles and stop on a site if i could mid week to recharge batteries. It took me 1 1/2 days to realise its almost without exception MH's are hated there, from the way people drive, park around you, glare at you, even look the other way while taking your money in garages (thats before i filled up my water lol!, it did cost me 60p in the machine!). Everything is about extracting max money for least value and MH's are the scum of the earth it seems. The number of people who carved me up in traffic jams on the road, well they've obviously never been up north 'cos people who do that up here get a thump! Got horn blown (plus mucky look) at me twice whilst parked up IN THE DAY!
> 
> I did have the last laugh tho, had a great time, went in one museum, had one take-away, walked round the outside of the castles and even got mis-changed in a shop when the cashier gave me change for a £20 when i'd only given her a £10.....HA!




Shame on you No wonder we motorhomers are frowned upon with an attitude like that!!!:lol-053:


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## scampa (Jul 31, 2012)

If anyone is wondering why Motorhomers (both Grockles and Emmets) prefer to stay in the towns of Devon and Cornwall instead of venturing into the countryside, there is an excellent DVD that explains it all. 

I believe that it's all based on a true story and should be sold as an introductory guide in Tourist Information Centres!  

Here's the trailer (warning, a little gory in places)....    Small Town Folk Official Trailer - YouTube


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## kimbowbill (Jul 31, 2012)

scampa said:


> If anyone is wondering why Motorhomers (both Grockles and Emmets) prefer to stay in the towns of Devon and Cornwall instead of venturing into the countryside, there is an excellent DVD that explains it all.
> 
> I believe that it's all based on a true story and should be sold as an introductory guide in Tourist Information Centres!
> 
> Here's the trailer (warning, a little gory in places)....    Small Town Folk Official Trailer - YouTube



think this is rather apt for Scarborough :dance:


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> ...... we should stop insulting people because their holiday choices are different from ours.



Very good advice - have you passed it on to that campsite owner?


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## ricc (Jul 31, 2012)

maingate said:


> I am afraid that a hookup is compulsory at virtually every campsite in the country nowadays. It is getting harder to get a pitch that is not called 'fully serviced' and therefore more expensive. I could be wrong of course as this is just information I have seen posted on forums. The nearest I get to a site is a THS with the C & CC.




sorry that just aint correct... theres plenty about that dont


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

maingate said:


> This lady charges £4.50 per day for a hookup on her site. If someone stayed there for one year, I make that £1642.50 for a hookup of 13 amps max., possibly as low as 10 amps. it would cost a further £2 per day for a dog (£730).
> 
> Did you know that it is illegal to re-sell electricity at a higher price than you pay for it. Virtually every campsite in the counry is guilty of this. Because campers only stay for very short periods, it goes unnoticed. Stay long term and it is very expensive. My total Gas AND Electric bills for the year fall well short of the cost of one miserable hookup on a site.
> 
> I also noticed on her website that a dog costs £3 per day if you are in a Static caravan. Why the £1 extra?



I think that has got to be the most ludicrous analogy of this entire debate! This is a camp site where people come for a few days. Do you know, my local council charges £2 per hour on its car parks. If I were to park my car all the time it would cost me £48 a day or £17,520 a year. That is disgraceful! Making me pay £17,000 a year when I can park free on the street outside my house!

Camp sites are regulated and examined regularly by trading standards officers. The cost of the actual electricity is just a portion of the cost of installing hook-ups to each pitch, maintaining them and subjecting them to annual safety checks. But of course, no one ever thinks of little things like that because they know bugger all about the true cost of running a business.

But let's look at the charges that this woman makes. She has been accused of 'fleecing' customers, rip-off prices to park 'on her patch of grass' and generally being a total con artist.

Her site must be of quite a high quality as it was a runner up in the AA's Campsite of the Year awards. Off season it charges £11 a night for a pitch and two people. At the height of the season it charges £18.95 a night. Electricity is £4.50 making a total in low season of £15.50 and in high season a total of £23.45. I wish I could find good sites at these prices in France and Spain at the height of the season! Rip off Britain eh!

One member accused her of charging £60 a night. Of course he'd read from another member that sites in Cornwall charge £50-70 a night and simply decided that this terrible woman must be charging the same!

But in my opinion she is being totally honest! She could, as many do, include electricity in her charges which would probably infuriate people on here even more as they often don't want it. But she doesn't and she gives you the choice and keeps her pitch prices lower.

Now, I really have no idea what it costs to provide electric hook-ups and maintain them but I have no doubt that she has convinced the relevant authorities that her charge is justified. In cooler months people will run heaters in their awnings all day!

But what really is appalling, is the utter character assassination of a women simply voicing her opinion. She's not stupid, she'll know that all motorhomers who wild camp won't flood onto her site but can't you see what may have moved her to speak? She pays the local council a fortune in business rates and when she walks out of her door she sees dozens of motorhomers lining up on the prom and paying nothing. She is entitled to her opinion, you and others may disagree but what you shouldn't do is insult and belittle her for having an opinion. And we wonder why motorhomers are disliked? Although I have to say that I have never experienced this hatred that people claim is directed at them and I believe that most of it is wild exaggeration!

Here is a link to her site: 

Boscrege Caravan and Camping Park

And finally, a tip for you all. If you want to park your 'van somewhere for a whole year make sure that you don't choose a holiday site in one of the most popular counties in the country where EHU is charged separately! There are many cheaper alternatives!

Edited to say: I forgot to mention the dog charges and again this is an example of people totally unaware of the facts and jumping to the the same old conclusion that it's a rip-off charge. This site, like many these days, has partitioned a section of its land to make a very large dog-walking field, so that owners may exercise their dogs without having to leave the site.

This means that the land in question, which could host another large number of static caravans or campers, is costing a lot of money. So they charge £2.00 for dogs to cover the cost of providing this facility. Isn't this fair? The dog owners are the ones responsible for the loss of revenue in leaving a large area non-productive. Why should we, who don't have dogs, bear this cost?

And why do people renting statics pay more for their dogs? Well, I would have thought that absolutely obvious. If you're in your own caravan or motorhome your dog is making your property dirty and smelly. If you're renting a static caravan your dog is making the site owner's property dirty and smelly. And yes, I know that that's a modest exaggeration but dogs can damage 'vans and fabrics, and anyone who's visited a friend's 'van where there are dogs will know what I mean! Owners somehow get used to the pong and don't even know it's there!


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## n brown (Jul 31, 2012)

scampa said:


> If anyone is wondering why Motorhomers (both Grockles and Emmets) prefer to stay in the towns of Devon and Cornwall instead of venturing into the countryside, there is an excellent DVD that explains it all.
> 
> I believe that it's all based on a true story and should be sold as an introductory guide in Tourist Information Centres!
> 
> Here's the trailer (warning, a little gory in places)....    Small Town Folk Official Trailer - YouTube



that video is almost a direct copy of our family holiday vid from the time we went to cornwall! aaahh memories.....


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> She could, as many do, include electricity in her charges which would probably infuriate people on here even more as they often don't want it. But she doesn't and she gives you the choice and keeps her pitch prices lower.



As Maingate said, it is actually illegal for her to re-sell electricity for more than it costs her, so she is breaking the law! If you were not so blinkered you might have a good point but it is ridiculous to claim that all the fault is on the side of those who complain about her and that she should be free from criticism.


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## Sparks (Jul 31, 2012)

Post deleted


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

northernspirit2001 said:


> I've just got back from a week in Devon, started out I planned to go to 3 museums and 2 castles and stop on a site if i could mid week to recharge batteries. It took me 1 1/2 days to realise its almost without exception MH's are hated there, from the way people drive, park around you, glare at you, even look the other way while taking your money in garages (thats before i filled up my water lol!, it did cost me 60p in the machine!). Everything is about extracting max money for least value and MH's are the scum of the earth it seems. The number of people who carved me up in traffic jams on the road, well they've obviously never been up north 'cos people who do that up here get a thump! Got horn blown (plus mucky look) at me twice whilst parked up IN THE DAY!
> 
> I did have the last laugh tho, had a great time, went in one museum, had one take-away, walked round the outside of the castles and even got mis-changed in a shop when the cashier gave me change for a £20 when i'd only given her a £10.....HA!



It's odd that you are treated so badly as I have never ever this kind of animosity. Why should garage owners not like you when you and other motorhomers are putting in eighty quid's worth of diesel? It makes no sense and I suspect that like others on here you exaggerate somewhat!

But what I find absolutely staggering is that you come on a public forum and boast about stealing money! Retailers offer you a product, you don't need to buy it if you don't want, but I've no doubt that if you thought, usually without any real evidence, that it's a rip-off (translation, more than you think it should be) you'd be shouting the same old rubbish. But these retailers haven't stolen from you as you have done from the castle that gave you ten pounds too much, and knowing this, you walked away.

I really do finds it a sad reflection on Britain today that, not only will people steal money like this (and it's theft by keeping, a criminal offence) but they come on forums boasting about it. I just hope that they didn't see you getting into your motorhome as that will be another reason for people to dislike us.


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

Sparks said:


> 50? I don't know for sure myself but it's been pointed out that there is not the room for 50 camper vans. If there is then I'm sure they are allowed to be '_parked up in the afternoon_' without actually 'camping'.
> As has been mentioned, some proportion may very well be day visitors to the town/village who are staying at her site.
> 
> 
> ...



She may have been exaggerating but the fact is I don't know, do you? But that's not my point. My point is in the bile that was aimed at this woman for having an opinion and I am saddened that many members on here seem unable to see things from anywhere but their own perspective and are never prepared to consider what may have led her to have these views.

It's the same every time. They're all greedy, they're all filthy rich from grossly over-charging, they all want to bully us onto their sites. It's utter b*ll*cks! Look at the link I provided to her site! It is a very nice site for those who like that kind of thing. The prices are very reasonable compared to any other sites, including CC and C& CC but what is she to members here? 

This is what she is to one: _well i thought she sounded nice and 60 or 70 quid a night is nothing to one as fabulously wealthy as moi.plus the satisfaction of knowing i am helping this creature fleece the revolting grockles will help me sleep at night,even on her stupidly over priced patch of grass. on second thoughts i'm off to wales,where even as an english,i'm considered human_

This 'creature' charges between £11 and £18.95 plus EHU if you want it!


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## wildman (Jul 31, 2012)

basildog said:


> In the height of season many sites in cornwall are £ 50.00 to £ 70.00 per night !
> All most of us need is a field with some water and a drain ?
> Come on campsite owners move with the times !



you can get exactly that at my CL in DEvon for just £7 a night, includes use of a table/bench and a BBQ if required and most of the time have the place to yourselves (pub 800 yards up the road). We charge the same all year round. Like you I hate inflated rates and extras for dogs etc. There has to be balance and affordable camping for those of us who are scraping by.

Oops my signature has disappeared See Lazy Buzzard Campsite in places to stop in Devon.


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## and123wills (Jul 31, 2012)

I am totally bemused by how this thread has developed again, I have bought my camper van it is totally shelf surfactant so i can come and go as i please.
I dont care about other peoples businesses as they dont care about my business, I refuse to make assumptions on other people on here with only a few words written but some people on her are able to do this???? this is not a business forum it is a wild camping fourum so its not hard to guess how we feel about wild camping.

I think some people need to re-scrutinise their choice of forum to air their views.


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## canalwheeler (Jul 31, 2012)

northernspirit2001 said:


> even got mis-changed in a shop when the cashier gave me change for a £20 when i'd only given her a £10.....HA!



Of course, as a good honest wild camper you pointed out her mistake and returned the £10??

Tone


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## Sparks (Jul 31, 2012)

Post deleted


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## maingate (Jul 31, 2012)

ricc said:


> sorry that just aint correct... theres plenty about that dont



Well, I did say my knowledge of campsites was sketchy. :lol-049:


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

and123wills said:


> I am totally bemused by how this thread has developed again, I have bought my camper van it is totally shelf surfactant so i can come and go as i please.
> I dont care about other peoples businesses as they dont care about my business, I refuse to make assumptions on other people on here with only a few words written but some people on her are able to do this???? this is not a business forum it is a wild camping fourum so its not hard to guess how we feel about wild camping.
> 
> I think some people need to re-scrutinise their choice of forum to air their views.



Yes, but the thread developed (if you've read it properly) because members on here made assumptions, most of which were totally wrong, about the subject of the link and insulted her in the most vile way. And the ones who need to examine whether they are on the right forum are these same people, who seem determined to make us all pariahs by their insulting and extreme views. If we are indeed despised and disliked by some people, if they'd read this thread and the opinions expressed, they'd hate us even more.

But what you appear to be saying, is that if anyone objects to such rude and extreme views that they should seek another forum to express their objections? Why do I suspect that your post is just another rather snide little attack on someone whom you don't like and with whom you've clashed in the past. It's getting to be rather a boring habit of yours I'm afraid.

And finally, who is stopping you from doing what you want and being self sufficient? Who is stopping you from coming and going as you please, as long as you camp and behave responsibly, who is physically herding you onto these dreadful camp sites? I'd love to know!


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## canalwheeler (Jul 31, 2012)

and123wills said:


> I am totally bemused by how this thread has developed again, I have bought my camper van it is totally shelf surfactant so i can come and go as i please.
> I dont care about other peoples businesses as they dont care about my business, I refuse to make assumptions on other people on here with only a few words written but some people on her are able to do this???? this is not a business forum it is a wild camping fourum so its not hard to guess how we feel about wild camping.
> 
> I think some people need to re-scrutinise their choice of forum to air their views.



I agree.

I'd add that in the short time I've been a member of this site, it is obvious that some people just like to engage in a damned good argument and pontificate their opinions no matter what the subject. I deal with this by ignoring their posts. Simples.

Both sides of this discussion have been greatly exaggerated in my opinion.

I would add that it is not uncommon for camping site owners to resent us wild campers, because we don't contribute as much to their profits as do the caravaners. So, instead of berating us and trying to force us out of the neighbourhood, what they should be doing is attracting us to their sites. They could do this by offering us reduced rates and maybe our own motorhome area? After all not that many campervans or motorhomes take up the space of a caravan and a car.

With regard to the bit about overcharging for power hook-ups, Canal and River Trust (CART), who are actually British Waterways with a new hat on, now charge power hook ups to boats on individual smart meters. You pay for what you use. That is how electricity should be sold on.

Tone


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

Sparks said:


> I know that being parked up in the afternoon doesn't mean you are camping. It doesn't mean you are not already using her establishment.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



I'm not disagreeing with you! Of course she will think it unfair because as I said, she pays the council a fortune in business rates. I'm not saying she's right either. But she is entitled to her opinion and doesn't deserve the invective heaped upon her by some members, most of it untrue. If we are allowed to argue for wild camping, why isn't she allowed to argue against it?

I love wild camping, but only in the right places, which for me means wild! So for the last time I hope, I know why people wild camp, I know why you're self-sufficient etc. etc. and my complaint in this thread is just about the unreasonable untrue and thoroughly nasty comments made about this lady.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> And finally, who is stopping you from doing what you want and being self sufficient? Who is stopping you from coming and going as you please, as long as you camp and behave responsibly, who is physically herding you onto these dreadful camp sites? I'd love to know!



That campsite owner is trying to - that is the entire point. I am pretty sure that nobody on here would have made any comment about her if she had not claimed that she was "horrified" by our presence, that it was harming her business (without any proof at all) and that she was asking the local council to ban us from the area. If she instead promoted her campsite by giving special offers to motorhomers (as many other owners do) instead of vilifying us then she would probably have got a few extra customers and attracted no negative comment at all.


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## Sparks (Jul 31, 2012)

Post deleted


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

If some of these dumb Camp site owners got their act together and provided only a parking area with a central water point and toilet dump for about £5 + and possibly electricity at an extra cost they would find that Motorhomers would probably  use their site , we don't want fancy sites we just want somewhere to overnight ,as in the foreign Aires. I realise that  some want showers  etc well Ok they can have the all singing  dancing  sites available to them.


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

canalwheeler said:


> I agree.
> 
> I'd add that in the short time I've been a member of this site, it is obvious that some people just like to engage in a damned good argument and pontificate their opinions no matter what the subject. I deal with this by ignoring their posts. Simples.
> 
> Tone



Really, whatever the subject? I for instance 'pontificate' on about two threads as most are of no interest to me. There are many on here who do seem to have an opinion on everything. But I also suspect that when there's a bit of an argument going, that the ones you disagree with are pontificating and those that you agree with are just debating.

But if you really want to know, the really poisonous posts on here are ones like yours and the one that you answered, which are little more than an excuse to have a dig at someone you don't like. You claim to ignore them but do what I think is  the really cowardly thing of sniping at them indirectly.

I'm a businessman and the posts I really often get my teeth into are those such as this, where uninformed and unreasonable people make the kind of disgraceful accusations such have been made on this thread. I make no apology for that and will continue to challenge untruths and wild accusations that have no basis in fact.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> If some of these dumb Camp site owners got their act together and provided only a parking area with a central water point and toilet dump for about £5 + and possibly electricity at an extra cost they would find that Motorhomers would probably  use their site , we don't want fancy sites we just want somewhere to overnight ,as in the foreign Aires. I realise that  some want showers  etc well Ok they can have the all singing  dancing  sites available to them.



A very good point. What campsite owners need to take into account (and some do) is that there are a lot of motorhomers who simply want a piece of tarmac, a freshwater tap and a waste dump (this is why we use CLs rather than campsites). If they charge over £30 per night without any discounts they are not going to get us into their sites. Others, who want showers, electricity, entertainment, swimming pools etc may regard the price as reasonable but the owners of the vans she is complaining about are almost certainly not in that category. A good businessman/woman would understand her potential clients; she fails to do so.


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## Barbt (Jul 31, 2012)

john h said:


> a very good point. What campsite owners need to take into account (and some do) is that there are a lot of motorhomers who simply want a piece of tarmac, a freshwater tap and a waste dump (this is why we use cls rather than campsites). If they charge over £30 per night without any discounts they are not going to get us into their sites. Others, who want showers, electricity, entertainment, swimming pools etc may regard the price as reasonable but the owners of the vans she is complaining about are almost certainly not in that category. A good businessman/woman would understand her potential clients; she fails to do so.




exactly!!!!


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## Northerner (Jul 31, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> If some of these dumb Camp site owners got their act together and provided only a parking area with a central water point and toilet dump for about £5 + and possibly electricity at an extra cost they would find that Motorhomers would probably  use their site , we don't want fancy sites we just want somewhere to overnight ,as in the foreign Aires. I realise that  some want showers  etc well Ok they can have the all singing  dancing  sites available to them.



Oh God, here we go again! Dumb camp site owners? What about dumb people who can't work out that if you have an amount of land for your site that it is far better to make it into proper pitches and charge the going rate? And your idea then means that every shower block and every toilet would have to be locked and keys issued to everyone. Of course the motorhomers would never use the showers would they when they've only paid a fiver for a pitch with no facilities? Oh yea!

But you perfectly illustrate my point. You have quite clearly not given the slightest thought to the outcome, or cost, or efficacy of your suggestions, but you come on here talking about 'dumb' site owners. What business have you been successful in that gives you the right to accuse site owners of being dumb?

And if you really are happy to pay a small amount for an overnight stop with basic facilities, what's wrong with the thousands of CLs that already exist, something that you will not find in France by the way? And if people aren't willing to use these CLs because of the cost, what makes you think that they'll pay a similar price to camp outside a site on a basic facility?

Why do you feel the need to constantly denigrate people just because they may not provide exactly what you want?

And I've just noticed that we still have people talking about her charging £30 a night. Don't they read the posts? Her site charges £11 in the off-season and a maximum of £18.95 for the high season plus EHU if you want it. And I've explained above why no site owner in Cornwall with half a brain would give up a valuable piece of land to get a third of the revenue that he or she gets from people wanting proper pitches.  Is that so hard to work out?


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> 1........ this then means that every shower block and every toilet would have to be locked and keys issued to everyone.
> 
> 2. And if you really are happy to pay a small amount for an overnight stop with basic facilities, what's wrong with the thousands of CLs that already exist, something that you will not find in France by the way?



1. There are many campsites in this country that do just that - I have stayed on a few.

2. Yes you do find them in France - they are called aires and most of them are free.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> And I've just noticed that we still have people talking about her charging £30 a night. Don't they read the posts? Her site charges £11 in the off-season and a maximum of £18.95 for the high season plus EHU if you want it. And I've explained above why no site owner in Cornwall with half a brain would give up a valuable piece of land to get a third of the revenue that he or she gets from people wanting proper pitches.  Is that so hard to work out?



A family (2 adults and two children) with electric hook-up, a dog and an awning would be charged over £30. But this is an aside - the nonsense in your argument is that IF she was able to fill her site with full-price bookings then what on earth is she complaining about wildcampers for? She claims her occupancy rate is down, so why doesn't she do something to increase it? Is that so hard to work out?


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## daisymini (Jul 31, 2012)

*Just a thought?*

I don't know how many members on this site own a property with a piece of land but if they did couldn't some sort of club be set up for over nighting for members?  If I had a piece of land i would be more than happy to offer and over night stop for any member.  Surely it must be possible as our members are spread out all over the country.  or am i being unrealistic?


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## elainekirk (Jul 31, 2012)

The problem as I see it is not with site owner but with the BBC who repeatedly assume the code of practice is for the 'others' and that they are a law unto themselves.
Firstly they have published this article as a news item when it is an opinion piece 'legitimised' as an article , in their opinion, by including the views of ' the other side' albeit those views presented as aggressive.
A news article should be news full stop.
To justify this article they should have published opinion from other traders, from the general public, they should have published the scale of fees motorhomers would have to pay on a site etc etc.
Anybody with strong views should be mailing them to the council, visitors should try to make it obvious to retailers/carers that they are there spending money simply because they were able to park up in the locality for the night .


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## thegoodlookingbloke (Jul 31, 2012)

*If you don't need to go into somebodys field why should you?*



n brown said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19046207,oh well off to wales !


This topic is my very reason to be a wildcamper. 

My motorhome is fully self sufficient, its road legal, doesn't take up more space than a large van, I never leave any trace where I have been and I do not cause any obstuctions or do things to alienate anyone. So why should I wish to pay someone to go into their field? it makes no sense at all.

I had to joint the C&CC many years ago in order to get insurance, but that isn't the case now and the more I hear about the C&CC the more I realise that us motorhomers don't need them at all and don't need soggy fields to tramp around in.:wave:


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## Tco (Jul 31, 2012)

Going back to original complaint, I for one, would definitely NOT want to park in a layby with "fifty" other vans.

This lady has a business which she clearly wants some help running. It is her problem if her bookings are down, I have suggested to her that she looks at the cost of a family of four staying one night with no electric hook up being £23 per night. If she addresses that then perhaps her occupancy rate might improve.

Having said that, caravans (of all types) parking overnight is a matter of degree. If it was a single van, I doubt anyone would notice, but when a big gang rock up it causes problems.  This how Travellers (note the capital letter) have become a problem in some parts. When it was the odd couple of vans for a few nights it was less of a problem. However when they started banding together possibly for their own security, people tend to notice them more.

There is no simple solution.  Impose too many restrictions a the spending public will simply not come. Camp in a group in a layby and you are the problem. What it needs is a compromise. A field with basic waste disposal facilities is what most wild campers need. But if you abuse the system you spoil it for others. Witness what happened at Barra. Some stayed for ever, or perhaps it felt like it, causing the locals to object and the area was closed off.  Steps are being taken there to establish basic campsites to serve the need and most people are satisfied.


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## Admin (Jul 31, 2012)

I understand that this is an important issue to our members and that this can become emotive.

Although we as a group do promote ethical wild camping, not all motorhomes are the same. I am sure that some of the reports made about motorhomers are true. I doubt however that the percentage of 'naughty' motorhomers is higher than the percentage of 'naughty' people in any defined group.

I can imagine that it is frustrating for campsite owners when they see people that they feel should be using their site parking for free. Although I do not agree with their point of view, I can see that it is a valid one for them.

This year we have had bad weather and the olympics that will have had an effect on summer bookings. If I want to sit in front of a TV I would not do it while I was paying to be on holiday. I also think that after so much rain this year many people are not keen on the thought of camping.

Let us try and be pleasant to each other as we discuss these issues and lets try and understand the whole picture.


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## jamesmarshall (Jul 31, 2012)

John H said:


> As Maingate said, it is actually illegal for her to re-sell electricity for more than it costs her, so she is breaking the law! If you were not so blinkered you might have a good point but it is ridiculous to claim that all the fault is on the side of those who complain about her and that she should be free from criticism.



Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but its occurred to me that as a hook up fee is the same for each pitch, some users will abstract more or less electricity than others for the same fee. It would seem to me then that the electricity is not metered to each pitch and campers would therefore be paying for the service and not the electricity. Does this make sense?


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## bopper (Jul 31, 2012)

I have just sat here and read this thread very carefully and could I please make the following comments:

That lady has every right to make those comments, in her world, she owns a business making money from tourists and in an area where tourism is it's main trade, she is looking toward her council / councillors to back her. (I lived for 18 years on the Isle of Wight and worked in the tourist industry there, and I know just what these councils are interested in, taking as much money as they can from Tourists.. known as Grockles.)
As said by one poster on here The BBC should know better than to report this kind of thing as a biased report. The BBC do this kind of thing all the time. Both regionally and nationally they 'hype' news and news stories to either make them more interesting than they really are, to raise an audience for their viewers and listeners by stirring up anger amongst locally opposed views, and to take away political attack from opposition parties. (I worked for them for 17 years)
I reiterate what I have said in other threads of the same ilk. I have paid my road tax and insurance and I can, and will, park where I want too if it does not cause an obstruction and is lawful.
Now lets make two assumptions here:
One is...  They ban parking and sleeping in lays-bys.  All long distance drivers would not be entering the county of Cornwall because they cannot drive more than 8 hours or so and therefore would not attempt to deliver goods.  Cornwall would fall apart without it's supply line from the rest of the country because it's such a long way.
Two... For a person who is a businessman to be posting a great length on here every day one can assume he doesn't have much to do in the way of business.
I thank you.


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## jamesmarshall (Jul 31, 2012)

bopper said:


> Now lets make two assumptions here:
> 
> Two... For a person who is a businessman to be posting a great length on here every day one can assume he doesn't have much to do in the way of business.
> I thank you.



I'm guessing that the above is a personal pop at Northerner and I'm sure he will want to comment on it himself but I have to ask, why would you want to say it? It has nothing to do with the thread.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

jamesmarshall said:


> Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but its occurred to me that as a hook up fee is the same for each pitch, some users will abstract more or less electricity than others for the same fee. It would seem to me then that the electricity is not metered to each pitch and campers would therefore be paying for the service and not the electricity. Does this make sense?



Sorry, but under regulations which came into force on 1st January 2003 (subsequent to the Electricity Act of 1989) it was forbidden to any longer make an "availability charge". From that date onward it has been illegal to charge more than the electricity cost the site owner. This means that they can only legally charge a blanket cost for the pitch (so that the electricity cost is not stated) or to meter the electricity and charge accordingly. Interesting, isn't it, that so many campsite owners are being allowed to walk all over the law without a single prosecution that I am aware of?


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## champstar (Jul 31, 2012)

I have read the thread from the start and wanted to comment but was rather afraid to..for obvious reasons...we all disagree and have different viewpoints.

From what I can gage the campsite owner has every right to complain but then uses such language as to incite such an uproar.

It would be better if we as a wildcamping community tried to change perceptions by information about the reasons for wildcamping...I know there are many.
In tourist hotspots it is all about money...I can understand that but times are changing and choice is paramount...it seems (I do not know the area) that the choice for motorhomers is visit the area and spend a small fortune (too some but not others) on a piece of land that they will probably occupy overnight and be out and about during the day, or park up for free and hopefully spend their money in the community. A bit of commonsense from business people would see that different things are needed by different camping groups and by offering a service customers will come.
How can it be that aires , municipal and full blown campsites can exist in places like France and Germany but not here?


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## northernspirit2001 (Jul 31, 2012)

bopper said:


> I have just sat here and read this thread very carefully and could I please make the following comments:
> 
> That lady has every right to make those comments, in her world, she owns a business making money from tourists and in an area where tourism is it's main trade, she is looking toward her council / councillors to back her. (I lived for 18 years on the Isle of Wight and worked in the tourist industry there, and I know just what these councils are interested in, taking as much money as they can from Tourists.. known as Grockles.)
> As said by one poster on here The BBC should know better than to report this kind of thing as a biased report. The BBC do this kind of thing all the time. Both regionally and nationally they 'hype' news and news stories to either make them more interesting than they really are, to raise an audience for their viewers and listeners by stirring up anger amongst locally opposed views, and to take away political attack from opposition parties. (I worked for them for 17 years)
> ...



HGV drivers can only travel 4.5h then need 45mins off, more and more these days "overnight", combining loads to save fuel, and a legal rest for sleep is usually 11 hours but can be reduced to 9 sometimes. (This is based on PSV as that's what I do but HGV is very similar where it's not identical). Nobody honks at them in lay-by's! In my experience they pee and sh** in the gutter. If you've ever had to park in a lorry park at services you will smell evidence of how some are too lazy to walk to the toilets provided. Sorry, this isn't a dig at lorry driver's, just making a point how they're welcome to use lay-by's and we are expected to park up our motorhomes and sleep in a hotel for the night.


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## Tco (Jul 31, 2012)

I would have thought that metering each and every electricity point would not be economically viable, even if it were within the law as it now (aparently) stands. I don't know about others on here but I tend to take an electric supply if one is available at a reasonable cost, but it is not imperative that I do so. 

Incidentally I have had a reply from Suzy Watts, She thanks me for my comments and intends to pass them on to her local council (which is fine by me). She further states that some of her competitors charge up to £35 having more facilities than hers. Looking at her price list it wouldn't be too difficult to get near or even exceed that on her site if you had (say) three kids, a dog, an awning and needed electricity.

I echo Phil's words, surely we can discuss this and other matters on this forum without making assumptions, and/or potentially insulting remarks about other posters.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*Campsite Fees*

We joined the C&CC club to use their temporary holiday sites and have already got our money back, but their sites are expensive.  We used a site in Marazion earlier this year, not the one in the article, but I really wanted to stay next to the beach, but there was no room.  We paid £20 a night to stay at a site with basic facilities within walking distance of the village.

Going to France has made me realise even more what a rip off British sites are. On our way back to the ferry we stayed on a site which had a swimming pool, bar and restaurant, stalls for locals to sell their produce and still only cost £20 Euros per night and 2 Euros for WiFi It was real WiFi as well, not the low bandwidth you pay a fortune for on sites here.  There has to be a business opportunity here for someone who has the land and the foresight to realise that there is a very real demand for something like the Aires system here.  I really don't want to pay £30 just to fill up with water and empty the loo.  In Isigny sur Mer, the Aire is right next to the river and we pulled in to empty the loo and fill the tank, which I think cost me about 3 euros. If someone set up a chain of service points, possible based on car parks, I would happily pay out £5 every four days or so and it's all automated, so doesn't even have to be staffed.  It would be interesting to know whether the lady who was complaining is either on, or has a relative, on the local council.

I'm sure a lot of people on here are like me and want to be up and out early to go fishing, or watch the sunrise, but you can't do that on a site which locks the gates until 7.30am


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Tco said:


> I would have thought that metering each and every electricity point would not be economically viable, even if it were within the law as it now (aparently) stands. I don't know about others on here but I tend to take an electric supply if one is available at a reasonable cost, but it is not imperative that I do so.



Hi

I agree with you that I like to know the various elements of the cost so that I can decide what to buy and what not to but the current law says that this is only possible for electricity if a meter is used. For campsite owners who cannot afford to install meters then they are supposed to just state one price for the pitch including electricity. It may be inconvenient but nobody ever accused the law of being logical! (which is probably why so many campsite owners are allowed to break the law).


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## jamesmarshall (Jul 31, 2012)

John H said:


> Sorry, but under regulations which came into force on 1st January 2003 (subsequent to the Electricity Act of 1989) it was forbidden to any longer make an "availability charge". From that date onward it has been illegal to charge more than the electricity cost the site owner. This means that they can only legally charge a blanket cost for the pitch (so that the electricity cost is not stated) or to meter the electricity and charge accordingly. Interesting, isn't it, that so many campsite owners are being allowed to walk all over the law without a single prosecution that I am aware of?



Then wouldn't this create an anomaly for the site owner? in that he/she would have to charge the same for pitches regardless of hook up or not. In effect the campers not using electricity would be subsidising those who do. if you turn the whole thing around it could be argued perhaps, that at present those not using electricity are receiving a discount. When you consider the outlay for the hook up system and the continuing maintenance and inspection costs as well as depreciation of the system, surely there needs to be an additional charge simply to recoup outlay.


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jul 31, 2012)

This is also rumbling on UK Campsites LINKY


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

jamesmarshall said:


> Then wouldn't this create an anomaly for the site owner? in that he/she would have to charge the same for pitches regardless of hook up or not. In effect the campers not using electricity would be subsidising those who do. if you turn the whole thing around it could be argued perhaps, that at present those not using electricity are receiving a discount. When you consider the outlay for the hook up system and the continuing maintenance and inspection costs as well as depreciation of the system, surely there needs to be an additional charge simply to recoup outlay.



As I said, the law isn't necessary logical - and perhaps that is why a blind eye is turned to all those campsites which do not comply with this particular law. It was originally designed to prevent landlords overcharging tenants and so will not necessarily fit campsites.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*I have to agree about the fifty campers comment.*

When we were there we never saw more than four or five, but the rest of the area was taken up by cars, which is fair enough. You couldn't physically fit  fifty vans along there without using trolley jacks and evicting the cars first. Assuming I can sort out my driving problems by then, we may be back that way in September, so I'll post what I see.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

basildog said:


> Tco said:
> 
> 
> > I have noticed there have been more and more locals sleeping there in cars and unconverted vans too as I do not think those with money have a clue that there really are people these days on low wages especially in places like Cornwall who unless they give up their job and claim benifits could not pay a rent on a house  even if they wanted too .
> ...


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 31, 2012)

We should have a campaign to introduce Aires in the UK.

I've never used one as we haven't been abroad in our camper yet, but they seem like a damn good idea to me.

There is definitely a business opportunity for someone, whether it be private individuals with the land to do so, local councils, or someone who wants to go the whole hog and go national.

I'm not bothered about the lady's comments about wild campers, as has been said by several folks she is perfectly entitled to her opinion.

What this highlights is the lack of good, cheap stop off/stay over points aka Aires as there is obviously a need for something like this for motorhomers in the UK.
Plus I bet it would attract more foreign motorhomers = more tourist revenue.

Those with plenty of money and reasons for wanting to stay on an official camp site can do so, those who can't afford to or don't want to will at least have the basic amenities of the aires to enable them to keep on rolling and enables safe disposal of waste etc. 

Bit like fly tipping. If you close council tips, which they're doing in County Durham, you can bet your life fly tipping will increase.
With aires you're starting the other way round. We don't have any to begin with, so some irresponsible campers will dump stuff illegally and give us all a bad name.
You'll always get folk behaving irresponsibly, whether there are refuse tips or aires available or not, but surely it's got to be a good idea for the majority of us.


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Oh God, here we go again! Dumb camp site owners? What about dumb people who can't work out that if you have an amount of land for your site that it is far better to make it into proper pitches and charge the going rate? And your idea then means that every shower block and every toilet would have to be locked and keys issued to everyone. Of course the motorhomers would never use the showers would they when they've only paid a fiver for a pitch with no facilities? Oh yea!
> 
> But you perfectly illustrate my point. You have quite clearly not given the slightest thought to the outcome, or cost, or efficacy of your suggestions, but you come on here talking about 'dumb' site owners. What business have you been successful in that gives you the right to accuse site owners of being dumb?
> 
> ...


   The reason I called them dumb is that they cannot work out that a van parked in a layby has no facilities, so if they  offered a parking area with water and toilet dump, and possibly  electricity at further cost they would generate  more business for themselves rather than moaning that they are struggling to make a living, I use CL and CS sites extensively for your information, I have also been on sites where one is issued with codes for the shower blocks, without which one cannot enter so that overcomes your key theory, not rocket science is it. 
I am aware that CLs  do not exist in France but there is  France Passion which is very similar to our CL system and at least the  site owner can make some money, so dumb . yes I stick by that.


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## wildman (Jul 31, 2012)

Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users. The CL system is quite extensive and usually quite cheap but do bare in mind even a CL has costs, it has cost me over £3k so set mine up and if I wish to add electricity then another £10k has to be found,, who will pay for that, septic tanks cost nearly £100 to be emptied, business rate, and insurance have to be factored in sono one is making a lot of money, most take years to break even. A full site owner invests massive amounts of money in providing just the infrastructure and should be able to recoup it. If they carge too much people will not come, too little and they run at a loss. Most of us seldom use a site and even though I own a CL that includes me but we must remain aware that even wild camping someone somewhere is picking up the tab.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 31, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> I am aware that CLs  do not exist in France but there is  France Passion which is very similar to our CL system and at least the  site owner can make some money, so dumb . yes I stick by that.



What is a CL? (yes I could Google it, but I want to know how it's different to an aire, and you chaps seem to know a lot about this subject)

c:


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 31, 2012)

wildman said:


> Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users. The CL system is quite extensive and usually quite cheap but do bare in mind even a CL has costs, it has cost me over £3k so set mine up and if I wish to add electricity then another £10k has to be found,, who will pay for that, septic tanks cost nearly £100 to be emptied, business rate, and insurance have to be factored in sono one is making a lot of money, most take years to break even. A full site owner invests massive amounts of money in providing just the infrastructure and should be able to recoup it. If they carge too much people will not come, too little and they run at a loss. Most of us seldom use a site and even though I own a CL that includes me but we must remain aware that even wild camping someone somewhere is picking up the tab.



Good points. But we pay taxes for lots of things that many of us don't use, so I don't see why motorhomers shouldn't get a bit of the action.

Doubt whether anything will happen on the council front due to our current state of economic depression.

:idea:

We could get the bankers to pay!


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

wildman said:


> Aires in the UK would be a grand idea, but who is going to pay for the land and setting them up service them etc, are we as ratepayers expected to pay, that would seem unfair on the non motorhome users.



I take your point but we could start by simply setting up what the French call "aires de stationment", which basically means setting aside spaces on car parks specifically for motorhomes to overnight on. The cost of this would be zero and if only a small proportion of visitors shop in the area then that is profit for the local community for nothing. 

The system could be developed from there if they charge a modest amount (say £5) for overnighting and thus build up a fund which could eventually be used to put in a fresh water tap and a waste dump (the cost would not be great because there would presumably be a water supply nearby and a man-hole access to the sewers). The really successful ones could then later consider putting in electricity but that wouldn't really be necessary for most people.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*More than me jobs worth mate *

As an ex-council officer I'm used to reading the minds of councillors and also to working with obstructive officers.  I can imagine what would happen here, as health and safety was cited as a reason for doing nothing, because you can't get sued if you do nothing.  Another thing which I noticed in France was the lack of vandalism...at Dieppe there's a water fountain on the beach and in several places we noticed that wheelie bins were used for litter.  Can you imagine that happening here and them surviving for long?  A lot of things are done in 
councils because they involve the pet interest of a councillor or senior officer, irrespective of whether they are viable, appropriate, or even a good idea.

If somebody got hold of the tourist bodies in each area and through them to the councillors there might be a chance.  A lot of us also go out in Winter, when tourists are like rocking horse manure, adding to the local community, but probably not to the takings of camp site owners as they are too far away in their Spanish holiday villas to notice whether we are there or not


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Bushtrekker said:


> I can imagine what would happen here, as health and safety was cited as a reason for doing nothing, because you can't get sued if you do nothing.



You have just described the prevailing view among the many senior council officers I had to deal with for many years! I couldn't agree more. :bow:


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## elainekirk (Jul 31, 2012)

Simple fact of the matter is that this camp site owner who most years must make a profit for her to be in business is asking that the council forces an extra (note the word extra is used as most sites already have steady tent/ caravan/mhome trade) fifty vans onto sites thereby removing between eight and ten thousand pounds a week from the local retail trade as it can be assumed the vast majority of wilder do invest in local shops, pubs etc and put the money in their pockets. This would have a knock on effect on their own business as local retailers failing would reduce the lure of the area to tourists .


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## groyne (Jul 31, 2012)

> I take your point but we could start by simply setting up what the French call "aires de stationment", which basically means setting aside spaces on car parks specifically for motorhomes to overnight on. The cost of this would be zero and if only a small proportion of visitors shop in the area then that is profit for the local community for nothing.



They tried this in Guisborough North Yorkshire but ended it after an 18 month trial showed only 2 Motorhomes used the parking spaces in that time. This is only what I read on Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Teesside/Cleveland and I don't know how much the parking cost.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

groyne said:


> They tried this in Guisborough North Yorkshire but ended it after an 18 month trial showed only 2 Motorhomes used the parking spaces in that time. This is only what I read on Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Teesside/Cleveland and I don't know how much the parking cost.




....and therein lies the problem. In France they would say that this is costing us nothing so why end it? Instead they would do something about advertising it. In England the prevailing view among senior council officers seems to be as stated above - if they do nothing they can't get blamed for anything. I despair of the British attitude (to most things) sometimes.


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

There needs to be a serious compromise IMHO  Some campsites need to get real with their pricing

Some tight motorhomers need to realise that everything has a cost to somebody, somewhere  Nobody can expect something for nothing in this day and age  Please don't start on about road tax and insurance!!!!   We all have to pay that, it doesn't include special rights for any group.

There you go.  shall I emigrate now or later.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> everything has a cost to somebody, somewhere



For the most part I would agree with you but where is the cost in letting motorhomes park overnight on tarmac that nobody else would use? You could say that emptying the litter bins involves a cost but that would apply if we were in a car and picnicking during the day time - and nobody seems to object to that!


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

John H said:


> For the most part I would agree with you but where is the cost in letting motorhomes park overnight on tarmac that nobody else would use? You could say that emptying the litter bins involves a cost but that would apply if we were in a car and picnicking during the day time - and nobody seems to object to that!



OK John.  We will go with the implication of your post, that ALL motorhomers are little angels, who wouldn't leave litter. empty their tanks on the move and other such things.  Why are an increasing number of people turning against us? It isn't because we are all sweetness and light.  We need to start seeing things through the eyes of others.  The same as some campsite owners need to.


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> OK John.  We will go with the implication of your post, that ALL motorhomers are little angels, who wouldn't leave litter. empty their tanks on the move and other such things.  Why are an increasing number of people turning against us? It isn't because we are all sweetness and light.  We need to start seeing things through the eyes of others.  The same as some campsite owners need to.



If I gave the impression that we are all little angels then I apologise. Like everybody else, I have seen inconsiderate motorhomers emptying casettes on the beach etc (fortunately rarely) but the point I was trying to make is that there are inconsiderate idiots in all sectors of society and the cost of cleaning up after our idiots is but a small proportion of the cost of clearing up after the picnicking idiots or the day-tripper idiots or the resident idiots. I cannot see that it would actually cost any more to allow a few (and I agree it should be a few, not 50 plus) motorhomes to park overnight. 

The converse of this is: can you imagine any tourist resort banning day trippers because they cost a lot to clear up after and because they don't use local restaurants or accommodation?


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

With respect old chap. I ain't going the ringa ringa roses route.  I have had my say and that's it. I think I was plain enough


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

Slightly off thread but in the same vein, I saw on BBC News today that  an Hotel in London has reduced it's room price per night from £500 to £100 because of no takers, during the you know what, this is the same as Campsites no footfall  but they expect to get the same  pitch price, charge  less, offer less facilities as I have said earlier and they will get trade.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*OK, hoiw much do you consider is realistic.*

As motorhomers we are a fairly independent bunch of people, only needing water, toilet emptying facilities and in some cases electricity.  I'm happy to pay up to £10 every few days to get these facilities, but moan like hell when I can only find sites charging £20 plus per night because they have clubs, swimming pools etc.  What do you lot consider a reasonable price for access to what we need?


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## n brown (Jul 31, 2012)

Bushtrekker said:


> As motorhomers we are a fairly independent bunch of people, only needing water, toilet emptying facilities and in some cases electricity.  I'm happy to pay up to £10 every few days to get these facilities, but moan like hell when I can only find sites charging £20 plus per night because they have clubs, swimming pools etc.  What do you lot consider a reasonable price for access to what we need?



what,to empty a bog and get a bit of water? £3,same as i'd pay in france


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

Bushtrekker said:


> As motorhomers we are a fairly independent bunch of people, only needing water, toilet emptying facilities and in some cases electricity.  I'm happy to pay up to £10 every few days to get these facilities, but moan like hell when I can only find sites charging £20 plus per night because they have clubs, swimming pools etc.  What do you lot consider a reasonable price for access to what we need?



As many have said before CL's or CS's  Hundreds at at around £8 a night. And best of all NO CROWDS.  The next best thing to wilding there is IMO


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## landydriver (Jul 31, 2012)

l


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## Firefox (Jul 31, 2012)

mariesnowgoose said:


> What is a CL? (yes I could Google it, but I want to know how it's different to an aire, and you chaps seem to know a lot about this subject)
> 
> c:



CL = certified location run privately but under umbrella of CC. Also CS = certified site run privately but under  C&CC licence/inspection.

They are maximum 5 van/pitch site charging from £5 to £12 a night usually with very basic facilities. A field, a tap and chemical disposal point. If you are lucky you may get hook ups and small toilet block.

There are twice as many CL's as CS's and technically you need to be a member of the umbrella organisation to use them. Although if you can find the contact listing for the site many will accept anyone to get the business.


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

n brown said:


> what,to empty a bog and get a bit of water? £3,same as i'd pay in france


  But you ain't in France.  You are in UK where everything is dearer. It's like comparing apples and pears :idea-007:


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

I think that there is a lot of jealousy aimed at Motorhomers, people see us parked up in what they see as very expensive bits of kit [ as some are ] and they  think look at that lot having fun, shouldn't be allowed I am not doing it why should they, it is something we have to live with,and we should not do any thing to antagonise these  ill  informed people, they forget that they could be dong the same as us if they choose to.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*That would be nice, but realistically itt won't happen here...unless.*

In France the facilities were variable, especially on campsites. The best ones were the integrated type which I think are run, or supplied, by one company. If a similar system operated here on a commercial basis, so that we could park up, fill up and empty the loo,then drive on, it might just work.  The reson I said I would be prepared to pay £10 is that it's useful to have access to showers and laundry facilities as well.


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## ellisboy (Jul 31, 2012)

We stayed at a CL on the isle of Wight last year while working on the island. We're not members ,but rang te lady in advance and she was happy for us to stay for a week.We were the only ones there :banana:


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 31, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> I think that there is a lot of jealousy aimed at Motorhomers,* people see us parked up in what they see as very expensive bits of kit* [ as some are ] and they  think look at that lot having fun, shouldn't be allowed I am not doing it why should they, it is something we have to live with,and we should not do any thing to antagonise these  ill  informed people, they forget that they could be dong the same as us if they choose to.



Haha  If the saw mine they might have a collection to buy me a newer motorhovel :lol-053:


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## n brown (Jul 31, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> But you ain't in France.  You are in UK where everything is dearer. It's like comparing apples and pears :idea-007:



aha!thats why my answer is actually a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question! in reality,in the uk i use public toilets,with no embarassment,**** is **** and yes it smells !,or i'll dig a hole in the woods,water from a garage or private house.i'll use aires in france because they make life easy,i like that,but here i wouldn't bother to go on a campsite and pay to do these basic things,just too longwinded just adding---i saw in brittany a bourne set up outside the entrance to a campsite! what a great idea!no need to drive in queue up and explain your needs.perfect


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

ellisboy said:


> We stayed at a CL on the isle of Wight last year while working on the island. We're not members ,but rang te lady in advance and she was happy for us to stay for a week.We were the only ones there :banana:


  If CCC Members were to complain to the club about non members on the CL the owner would have her Certificate withdrawn, likewise if a sites  inspector were to call ,and they do, again the owner would  loose their certificate and would no longer be able to operate, so be careful to whom you talk to, we can't afford to loose any sites.:scared:


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## vwalan (Jul 31, 2012)

but we dont have to pay anything .there are thousands of public toilets that you can tip your sewage . only like going twenty times in the same one . as for rubbish uk is full of bins all over the place . there is no need for aires or anything there is no problem stopping almost anywhere . if a place goes on about it then dont go there let your wheels do the talking . why waste time if they dont want you. 
one doesnt another one does .


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## vindiboy (Jul 31, 2012)

We Wild Camp quite extensively winter time in Spain and Portugal amongst other Countries, last Winter at Manta Rota on the Algarve the Police moved all vans away , we returned about three weeks later to find about 60 vans of all Nations parked up, apparently the local traders all kicked up to the Mayor and wanted the vans back as they were loosing a huge amount of money from the Wilders. So vans were allowed back and were allowed to stay until March 25th I think the date was set at, now I understand there is a small charge to park up and water and toilet facilities are now there. A result for common sense I would say.


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## n brown (Jul 31, 2012)

same at messines.when the cops were giving campers in silves a hard time, the mayor says 'come on down!'.big market square here,get in there !


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## John H (Jul 31, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Slightly off thread but in the same vein, I saw on BBC News today that  an Hotel in London has reduced it's room price per night from £500 to £100 because of no takers, during the you know what, this is the same as Campsites no footfall  but they expect to get the same  pitch price, charge  less, offer less facilities as I have said earlier and they will get trade.



I read the same thing - that overall tourist figures this year for the UK may well be considerably down because there may be a lot of people here for the Olympics but others have decided to avoid the perceived crowds and go to quieter countries! Its a funny old world, so you'd think that owners of accommodation would try to avoid insulting potential customers.


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## Bushtrekker (Jul 31, 2012)

*That sounds far to sensible.*

It will never happen here, mainly because in areas we are likely to want to visit, campsite owners and councillors are the same people. It's a pity, because local shops would benefit greatly in rural areas and our presence could actually make the difference between local shops closing or staying open.  France is far more geared up to motor homes than this country will ever be, simply because they have a more commonsense approach. If they make motorhomes welcome the local, shops, bars and restaurants all benefit.


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## iceman1956 (Jul 31, 2012)

This thread has definitely moved on from my last post, and a lot of good points have been made. We don't know exactly what was said by Suzy Watts only what was reported to have been said. "But there ain't smoke without fire"  neither do we know if she works 7 months or 12 months of the year to make her living. If her business is suffering re-look at your business model and restructure acordingly, that is what the rest of us have to do!! It is all too easy to blame others for our misfortune.

Do I personally think that her charges are excessive yes I do. But I also pay these excessive fees when I have. I run my own business and do understand the true cost of supplying goods or services are more that the imediate face value, but I also come across the greedy side of business were they are out for a quick buck, and don't care who they overcharge as long as they make there excessive profits. 200% markup for passing a piece of paper and then complain they are loosing business because my charges are too high.

Now back to the main point in that what we need is legitimate parking area's that we can overnight in, whether that be in a town centre or out in the sticks. Without fear of prosecution or retaliation from the biggeted people. If we have fresh water and somewhere to dump the waste, that is a bonus. :cool1:


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## vwalan (Jul 31, 2012)

we aready have them they are called carparks .as an m1 category vehicle we can park anywhere a car can . we mustnt extend the size of the vehicle by awnings or steps etc that touch the floor or park on levelling devices etc . eu law as already been set, the precident as been made. 
there is plenty of places to park . if you want to camp then use a camp site .


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## iceman1956 (Jul 31, 2012)

vwalan said:


> we aready have them they are called carparks .as an m1 category vehicle we can park anywhere a car can . we mustnt extend the size of the vehicle by awnings or steps etc that touch the floor or park on levelling devices etc . eu law as already been set, the precident as been made.
> there is plenty of places to park . if you want to camp then use a camp site .



I  have previously made this point, but the last time I stayed on a site during one of my photography outing, I was asked to leave after 2 nights, because I was disturbing the other campers starting my engine at 2:30 in the morning. Yes guilty as charged, so I like to park/overnight as close as possible to what I am going to photograph, that way I am not disturbing anyone when I leave at silly o'clock. That sometimes means that I am on the coastline, so I can cycle or walk to the location.

We all have our own reasons for wild camping, my definition of camping is staying more than one night in the same spot, but that point is very subjective I am sure it will raise a few comments.


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## Firefox (Aug 1, 2012)

I always think with wild camping, up to two nghts is OK, because you are legally allowed to stay on land for up to two nights as a single unit, as an exemption to the oft quoted 1960 act.


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## John H (Aug 1, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I always think with wild camping, up to two nghts is OK, because you are legally allowed to stay on land for up to two nights as a single unit, as an exemption to the oft quoted 1960 act.



....and if local authorities are worried about people staying too long they could easily do what the French, Spanish etc do in their most popular spots - limit stays to 24 or 48 hours. Simples!


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 1, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I always think with wild camping, up to two nghts is OK, because you are legally allowed to stay on land for up to two nights as a single unit, as an exemption to the oft quoted 1960 act.



That is with the landowners permission and only 28 days in a year of habitation.  How do you know that the number of days have not been exceeded?  Do you ask the landowner for specific permission to park?

I also follow the same rule of one or two nights only, but in no way can we claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.  

Common land is owned by the commoners, it is not public land and even if unfenced it is an offence to drive a vehicle more than 15 yards onto it from the highway.  Some roadside verges are common land, not part of the highway.

John


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## Deleted member 2636 (Aug 1, 2012)

MATS said:


> I say we all give the campsite mentioned  a ring over the next few days and enquire about prices - then ask for a discount...ie haggle then say it is too much.  I am serious about this = just do it please....we have a say on this and the more of us that ring, the more the message gets home.....
> 
> have fun



There is such a thing Harassment in UK Law and this could be construed as being such - be very careful as websites are now being held responsible for what is posted


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## herbenny (Aug 1, 2012)

baloothebear said:


> There is such a thing Harassment in UK Law and this could be construed as being such - be very careful as websites are now being held responsible for what is posted



I agree !


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 1, 2012)

groyne said:


> They tried this in Guisborough North Yorkshire but ended it after an 18 month trial showed only 2 Motorhomes used the parking spaces in that time. This is only what I read on Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Teesside/Cleveland and I don't know how much the parking cost.



This was a Pay & Display car park.  The council altered the meter so that overnight tickets could be issued.  Only 2 users paid for their stay.  How many others used the facility is not known.  Many have the opinion that they will only pay if they are forced too or a caught not paying.

John


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## BambiOwner (Aug 1, 2012)

I was going to Cornwall in a few weeks and was going to this area so I emailed the site about pricing and what had been said by them concerning motorhomes parked up in the lay by, I got a reply from her stating that most of what had been said was taken out of context and that the BBC had hyped up the story for a better coverage as did the local papers. So do not alway take what you read as truth.


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 1, 2012)

Tco said:


> I would have thought that metering each and every electricity point would not be economically viable, even if it were within the law as it now (aparently) stands. I don't know about others on here but I tend to take an electric supply if one is available at a reasonable cost, but it is not imperative that I do so.



I know a CL that has metered each pitch.  He told me the meters cost him £25 each.  I have seen vans on this site use £5 of electricity between tea time and the early hours of the morning when they ran out.  My consumption was £1.20 per 24 hour day.  Now that is a big difference.

He said it was either meter or put the price up for all users.  He opted for meters others take the easier route of charging everyone for the high consumers amongst us.

John


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 1, 2012)

daisymini said:


> I don't know how many members on this site own a property with a piece of land but if they did couldn't some sort of club be set up for over nighting for members?  If I had a piece of land i would be more than happy to offer and over night stop for any member.  Surely it must be possible as our members are spread out all over the country.  or am i being unrealistic?



No you are not being unrealistic.

This forum is also an exempted organisation (club) under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.  It is possible for Phil to apply for a paragraph 5 exemption to set up 5 van CL sites.  Exempted sites do not have to take 5 vans they can be smaller but not larger, no matter how much land is available.  The 28 day rule is a club rule by the CC & C&CC.  The Motorcaravanners' Club do not impose this rule on their members and they allow non members to use their CL and nightstop (in conjunction with Practical Motorhome) sites.

We have expertise to set up and administer such sites.  I know that this is possible as I have done this for 2 organisations myself.  Another forum has para 5 as well as rally exemptions.

We need to work within the existing rules.  The big clubs have influence on local authorities and Natural England so they will not promote aires, as these would be a conflict of interest for their commercial sites setup.

Over to you Phil

John


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## Admin (Aug 1, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> No you are not being unrealistic.
> 
> This forum is also an exempted organisation (club) under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.  It is possible for Phil to apply for a paragraph 5 exemption to set up 5 van CL sites.  Exempted sites do not have to take 5 vans they can be smaller but not larger, no matter how much land is available.  The 28 day rule is a club rule by the CC & C&CC.  The Motorcaravanners' Club do not impose this rule on their members and they allow non members to use their CL and nightstop (in conjunction with Practical Motorhome) sites.
> 
> ...



It was difficult enough to get a Paragraph 6 for England, will still have not had them granted for Wales or Scotland. After the first year I will be able to provide a list of sites that we have used and then apply for paragraph 4 and 5 if needed.


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 1, 2012)

BambiOwner said:


> I was going to Cornwall in a few weeks and was going to this area so I emailed the site about pricing and what had been said by them concerning motorhomes parked up in the lay by, I got a reply from her stating that most of what had been said was taken out of context and that the BBC had hyped up the story for a better coverage as did the local papers. So do not alway take what you read as truth.



I remember being told an old press addage.  "Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story"

John


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## Smaug (Aug 1, 2012)

Phil said:


> It was difficult enough to get a Paragraph 6 for England, will still have not had them granted for Wales or Scotland. After the first year I will be able to provide a list of sites that we have used and then apply for paragraph 4 and 5 if needed.



Nice one! well done, Phil.

BTW, is it possible for us to approach the CC or CCC etc to see if we can "affiliate" in some way? I can't see the benefit to them tho, which would be a bit of a sticking point!


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## Deleted member 27096 (Aug 1, 2012)

BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall

this is the link............


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## Funky Farmer (Aug 1, 2012)

Blackwatch said:


> BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall
> 
> this is the link............




Hi Blackwatch  welcome along.  I were wundrin'  Is your broadband a tad slow? :wacko::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::cool1:


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## n brown (Aug 1, 2012)

beat me to it again!


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## Funky Farmer (Aug 1, 2012)

n brown said:


> beat me to it again!


You need to get a grip son :lol-053:


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## n brown (Aug 1, 2012)

Funky Farmer said:


> You need to get a grip son :lol-053:



Link to unrelated external site removed


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## Funky Farmer (Aug 1, 2012)




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## groyne (Aug 1, 2012)

That's a dodgy site Mr Brown.



> This website can transmit malicious software or has been involved in online scams or fraud.
> 
> Please close this page.


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## Funky Farmer (Aug 1, 2012)

groyne said:


> That's a dodgy site Mr Brown.



Where did that flag come from groyne?  My avast and windows defender didn't pick it up?  Just wundrin':sad:


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## groyne (Aug 1, 2012)

> Where did that flag come from groyne?




Virgin Media security.


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## Randonneur (Aug 1, 2012)

I have read all the comments on this thread and it would appear that this lady has now realised that her comments on the BBC have been hyped up and taken out of their original context.

Hopefully she now realises the damage she may have done to not only her own business, but cornish tourist businesses as a whole, further reducing their income in these already tightened times.

I have just come back from spending two nights at Huttoft and Moggs Eye in lincolnshire. although I spent no money on campsite / parking fees I bought food and newspapers in the local shops and I spent £70 on diesel at a garage in Skegness on my way back home today.

I asked in one of the shops about the state of the tourist trade in the area at this normally "heaving" time of peak season and was told it is totally dead this year entirely due to the weather conditions. What's the point of renting a static caravan, or tent camping if all you can do is stay inside watching the TV? You might just as well save your money and stay home.

So, to blame motorhomers parking in laybys for her downturn in income only serves to damage her own reputation and that of other businesses in her area.


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## markymo (Aug 1, 2012)

I was not going to reply to this thread but some of the comments are way of base a bit like my grammar I have lived and worked in Cornwall for 20 years + driving a lorry delivering milk to shops and campsites all over Cornwall 

You pay £5.70 for a 24 hrs ticket at Marazion main car park so it's not free

you can only fit 10 motorhomes max on the road side without paying which the council are trying to turn into a cycle lane to stop free parking 

most of the motorhomes parked at Marazion in the summer are foreign so its the normal practice for them  to sleep in car parks 

waste on the beach what a load of rubbish the toilet is closer so why go on the beach and go down a load of steps it   make's no  sense 

WE do not owe Mrs Watts a living she needs to look at her site and make the changes that will bring her in the custom she needs 

bookings are down on every campsite I have deliver  to the weather and lack of money are being  blamed I have spoken to  site owners about doing a list / book and calling it  the under £10 a night campsites (moonshadow 555 gave me the idea ) some site owners look at me gone out when I suggest it needs to be under a tenner but when I explain to them that  its ok for the big sites that have water parks and go carting tracks to charge good money but  your plastic toilet  in the middle of a full of cow sh-t field doe's not make me want to part with £20 a night a fiver sounds more like it  and  it would help fill your empty pitches and campers  would possibly  use the farm shop and spend money so some are starting to  come around to the idea 

    I was on a site 2 days ago and could not help but notice the pitches were so close  4ft apart in some cases is the rule 20ft apart ? kids screaming all night in the tent next to you because they have  got sunburn that day well maybe not sunburn not this year anyway no thanks give me a car park any day


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## kimbowbill (Aug 1, 2012)

So if you can't park in the layby's, and dont want to pay the extortionate prices on the campsite, what's to stop you parking on road, oustside a house? cos this is what's going to happen, banning parking from layby's is not going to force people onto campsites, i have done this loads of times, leave the car park at say 10 pm then go back first thing in morning, only trouble with that is you can't have a drink, but thats no biggy, i know where i'd rather be, i experienced the sardine camp site, with screaming kids, oooooo eerrrrr eek, they are so noisy lol


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## vwalan (Aug 2, 2012)

there are a few even bigger laybys not far from the coast .or go a bit closer to penzance you can stop there by the station . in fact there are loads of places . have a look on google go inland on the a394 towards helston big laybys either side of the road . easydrive from local site seeing and the beach.


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## Firefox (Aug 2, 2012)

I would generally seek a place in town or inconspicuous area back from the sea front anyway.


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## John H (Aug 2, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> That is with the landowners permission and only 28 days in a year of habitation.  How do you know that the number of days have not been exceeded?  Do you ask the landowner for specific permission to park?
> 
> I also follow the same rule of one or two nights only, but in no way can we claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.
> 
> ...



Hi John

I said earlier that technically many campsite owners are breaking the law by stating a flat fee for electricity but because this law was drawn up to prevent landlords scamming their tenants it does not seem to be enforced against site owners. Similarly, the 2 day/28 day rule you refer to was drawn up to prevent abuses that have nothing to do with motorhomers pulling up for the night. Consequently, every policeman I have ever asked (including a couple of good friends) has told me that the police have no intention of enforcing the law against us - providing we are not breaking any other law of course! Remember, technically it is illegal for any vehicle to park anywhere on the highway but this is a rule that is certainly not enforced - it would cause chaos if it were.

All of which brings me back to the oft-debated do-we-make-a-fuss or do-we-keep-our-heads-down? I am definitely in the second camp. If they don't know you've been they are unlikely to complain.

All the best
John


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 2, 2012)

markymo said:


> I was on a site 2 days ago and could not help but notice the pitches were so close  4ft apart in some cases is the rule 20ft apart ? kids screaming all night in the tent next to you because they have  got sunburn that day well maybe not sunburn not this year anyway no thanks give me a car park any day



Hi Markymo

The 6 meter (20ft) spacing is a recomendation for fire precautions.  There should be 3 metres between the caravan/motor caravan/tent and any other unit in separate occupation.  That spacing should be free of any object including guy ropes, windbreakes, parked cars,  etc.

It is a *rule* by the big clubs that members comply with this spacing.  The Association of Camping and Caravanning Exempted Associations (ACCEO) also recommend to their member clubs (200+) that this is adheared too.   Natural England recommend it is placed in all exempted rally site rules.  There are over 400 exempted caravan clubs, including this forum.

If the local authority specifies it in the site licence, it also then becomes a regulation for the site to comply with.

This is the wording in the guidance notes issued by Natural England to all exempted organisations.  In this is a copy of the ACCEO guidance with pictues of spacing for diferent types of unit.



> Spacing and Density
> 
> 16. For health and safety purposes emergency vehicles must be able to gain access to any unit on the site. As such, units should be well spaced and sited so they do not restrict access to, or exit from, any other unit or the site in general. At least 3 metres should be required between units in all circumstances. For this purpose, a unit includes the caravan, motor home, tent or trailer-tent, plus any awnings, gazebo or pup-tent and the car or towing vehicle.
> 
> ...



Many commercial sites allow mixed tent camping and caravanning and ignore these regulations.  Most site users have never heard of them and are never told to move to comply with them.

I have seen some of the overcrowding on commercial sites in the high season as well.

John


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 2, 2012)

John H said:


> Hi John
> 
> I said earlier that technically many campsite owners are breaking the law by stating a flat fee for electricity but because this law was drawn up to prevent landlords scamming their tenants it does not seem to be enforced against site owners. Similarly, the 2 day/28 day rule you refer to was drawn up to prevent abuses that have nothing to do with motorhomers pulling up for the night. Consequently, every policeman I have ever asked (including a couple of good friends) has told me that the police have no intention of enforcing the law against us - providing we are not breaking any other law of course! Remember, technically it is illegal for any vehicle to park anywhere on the highway but this is a rule that is certainly not enforced - it would cause chaos if it were.
> 
> ...



Hi John

The 2 night & 28 day limitation is *law* not a rule.  It is laid down in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.



> *Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights*
> 2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
> site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
> site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
> ...



This is not a Police matter but is enforced by the local authority on the landowner.  The landowner is responsible for accounting for the number of night the site has been used without a site licence.  If he is unaware of the vehicles parking how can he keep this record.   I know from personal experience that planning officers will collect this evidence then confront land owners.  

Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1972 makes it an offence to drive a motor vehicle on common land except where the vehicle is driven not more than 15 yards from the road solely in order to park.

Therefor if you breach section 36 you are liable for prosecution.  

I agree that we are unlikely to be pursued for stopping for one nights parking under either act.  It is better to know your legal position though, than go around in ignorance.  I wild park myself and would move immediately if challenged.  I have see comments on here where people say they wont move.  No overnight camping signs are a way of informing us that we are not welcome, even if they have no standing in law, but could be used as a defence by a landowner if he is pursued.

I agree with you on the electricity matter.

John


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## John H (Aug 2, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> Hi John
> 
> The 2 night & 28 day limitation is *law* not a rule.  It is laid down in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.
> 
> ...



Hi John

Yes, it is a law not a rule (sloppy language on my part). The point I was making is that it was drawn up for purposes other than moving on a motorhome that is not causing any other problems and so the police are unlikely to enforce it against a discretely parked motorhome. You are, of course, correct about private landowners abusing the situation and in effect setting up an illegal campsite but that is not the set of circumstances that are being discussed on this thread.

I also agree that it is always wise to know what the law says, even if there is little liklihood of it being enforced, so that we do not upset the authorities to the extent that they start to enforce those laws!

.


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## fishy & Nina (Aug 2, 2012)

Wow...this topic has certainly moved on and been lively!

Lots of interesting posts - especially the last few, measured and info involving some legal issues - thankyou.

My take on it - once again jounalists have stirred up a hornets nest which, in the end, has done the camp site owner and our community no good at all.

This has been seen by other members of the public and commented on in an adverse way to us - I bumped in to someone (no damage) the other day, an old friend who i had not seen for about 10 years.  He now has a motorhome but doesn't wild camp, his impression was that the wilders were in the wrong!  He had only seen the media coverage and is not a member of any forum.  As a motorhomer he came down against us, imagine what other people think!

My point is, this post took off with some unfortuate comments based on media propaganda and not based on fact (as discussed above).  IMHO it is the BBC which should be getting the tongue lashing - this is not the first time and it won't be the last!

Have fun and don't take life too much to heart....it is far too short!:cheers:

ian


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## Smaug (Aug 2, 2012)

Early closing on camp sites offers a benefit for the owner (the evenings off-duty) and is "sold" to caravanners as a quiet site with no late night revellers returning noisily, it can also be sold to parents as their kids are perceived as safe to roam once the gates are locked.

On a recent trip I arrived late at a campsite (her indoors did not wish to camp on Silverdale beach - despite neap tides) & I was leaving early having failed to locate the owner or any warden. As we left a landy came in & on stopping to chat, we discoverd he was the owner. Once we explained that we had merely parked in the field overnight & were fully self-sufficient he offered us a reduced fee of a tenner. We'd had a lovely quiet night, fabulous sunset & a place to walk the dog so a tenner was fine. I have in the past knocked on farm doors to ask if they know of anywhere we could park overnight, many will suggest a nearby field or a corner of the yard if you say you are willing to pay a few quid cash.

Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own.


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## ivecotrucker (Aug 3, 2012)

Sparks said:


> BBC News - Call to prevent lay-by camping in Cornwall
> 
> 
> "Strictly speaking"? If that's the stance of the C&CC then it looks like they will be losing a member here!



We already left the C&CC this year and put our sub to Phil's Wildcamping - have to move with the times !. Already been to 2 Wildcamp Meets this year & met more, better company than in 9 years of the C&CC. Anyway, there aren't any pyromaniac, clotted cream eating alcoholics in the 'proper' Clubs, which is another reason for leaving.


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## iceman1956 (Aug 4, 2012)

Don't uses sites unless I am out with children (ahhhhhh) just spent the last 2 nights on a CC site at Coniston. £28.15 per night 1 pitch 2 adults and 2 children (Nieces). Damd expensive but I have the security I want on a site like this that they can play safely.

A suppose a time and a place for all things??

Give me Wilding any day of the week though when I am out on my own.


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## Doodles (Aug 4, 2012)

ivecotrucker said:


> We already left the C&CC this year and put our sub to Phil's Wildcamping - have to move with the times !. Already been to 2 Wildcamp Meets this year & met more, better company than in 9 years of the C&CC. Anyway, there aren't any pyromaniac, clotted cream eating alcoholics in the 'proper' Clubs, which is another reason for leaving.



Now why are my ears burning  Is this a reference to my penny stove shennanigans :lol-049:


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## Funky Farmer (Aug 4, 2012)

NotTheDoodles said:


> Now why are my ears burning  Is this a reference to my penny stove shennanigans :lol-049:



No but the maniac bit sounds about right:dance:


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## Suntor 100 (Aug 4, 2012)

Having read all the posts on this thread, the only one I actually agreed with was "Smaug's" 
"Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own." To park on a back street in front of someones home just to be in the town or near the beach is not my sort of wilding. Iwill find an out of the way place, interfere with no one, and leave no trace that I've been there. Public toilets for the cassette, and any farmer/householder if asked in the proper polite way will supply water. I have never been frowned on, sworn at for being there or cut up or abused for driving my m/home.
I think some on here feel they are superior road users and can push their way around. They are the ones that make it difficult for the rest of us. Respect for everyone goes a long way but it has to be earnt in both directions (something the younger generation seem to have lost).


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## Smaug (Aug 5, 2012)

Suntor 100 said:


> Having read all the posts on this thread, the only one I actually agreed with was "Smaug's"
> "Wilding needs initiative, discretion & tact, that is why I don't subscribe to the POI info, I will find my own." To park on a back street in front of someones home just to be in the town or near the beach is not my sort of wilding. Iwill find an out of the way place, interfere with no one, and leave no trace that I've been there. Public toilets for the cassette, and any farmer/householder if asked in the proper polite way will supply water. I have never been frowned on, sworn at for being there or cut up or abused for driving my m/home.
> I think some on here feel they are superior road users and can push their way around. They are the ones that make it difficult for the rest of us. Respect for everyone goes a long way but it has to be earnt in both directions (something the younger generation seem to have lost).



Thank you. Reading internet forum's has opened my eyes to a world I had no idea existed - despite having MH's since 1976 & having recently returned after a 20 year gap. We used to use basic sites like CL's & wilded where there were no sites & no people. But I have now discovered that people stop over in towns & cities, that industrial estates are lovely & quiet overnight & that even busy promenades can be used for overnighting. I still don't fancy such sites, altho the ideas are now planted & it does open up extra choices. However I don't have a problem with those that do "wild in the city", all I would ask is don't overstay your welcome & leave nothing behind but your thanks, as I was taught in the Scouts.


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## vwalan (Aug 8, 2012)

hi, just got back from a ludgven parish council meeting .
the campsite owners were there as well. the council are worried that toilet waste might be being tipped but not worried if its in the public toilet.
i put forward the eu directive on parking as tocamping . it was noted . the council are going to monitor it awile longer but it does seem like some sort of parking restriction .will or might be implemented on the stretch of that road . it is the roadside not exactly a layby .you can see it ob google its right oposite st michaels mount between the old station house and marazion. right by the sea wall.
there was it seems been plans to turn it into a cycle way but that seems to have been put aside due to locals not wanting it .
recomemdations to cornwall council to implement the scheme if they can.
the council dont want to frighten off tourists but would like to please the campsite owners as well if they can.
unfortunately this summer as been a disaster here and i think else where is similar.
thought i would go and hear what they had to say. i did mention free aires but was told not the time and place at the moment .
cheers alan.


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## Firefox (Aug 8, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> That is with the landowners permission and only 28 days in a year of habitation.  How do you know that the number of days have not been exceeded?  Do you ask the landowner for specific permission to park?
> 
> I also follow the same rule of one or two nights only, but in no way can we claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure the wording of the exemption to the act goes something like that the landowner can't be prosecuted for a stay up to two nights. This is whether he knows about you or not. So I think you are wrong, we can claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.  

For example he could approach you, and you can say you'll be off in the morning. He can say "it's OK by me, but I may be prosecuted if I allow you to stay for sanctioning a camp without planning on my land" You can counter with "no you can't because I am only here for one night and there is an exemption for stays of up to two nights by a single unit"

All hypothetical of course, but it's as well to know where you stand.


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 9, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I'm pretty sure the wording of the exemption to the act goes something like that the landowner can't be prosecuted for a stay up to two nights. This is whether he knows about you or not. So I think you are wrong, we can claim to be not causing a breach of the 1960 Act by the landowner.
> 
> For example he could approach you, and you can say you'll be off in the morning. He can say "it's OK by me, but I may be prosecuted if I allow you to stay for sanctioning a camp without planning on my land" You can counter with "no you can't because I am only here for one night and there is an exemption for stays of up to two nights by a single unit"
> 
> All hypothetical of course, but it's as well to know where you stand.



Hi Firefox

This is the wording in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960'

FIRST SCHEDULE
CASES WHERE A SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED

Use within curtilage of a dwellinghouse
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a
caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a
dweflinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situaited.

Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights
2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights—
(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the
purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining
land in the same occupation, and
(b) *if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on
which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number
of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that
land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.*

Use of holdings of five acres or more in certain circumstances
3.—(l) Subject to 'the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule,
a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of
land which comprises, together with any adjoining land which is in
the same occupation and has not been built on, not less than five
acres—
(a) if in the period of twelve months ending with the day on
which the land is used as a caravan site the number of days
on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land
or on the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed 'twenty-eight, and
(b) if in the said period of twelve months not more than three
caravians were so stationed at 'any one time.

I have personally experienced a Planning officer keeping an eye on a site and gathering the details of when it was being used.  He then visited the site to see if any exemptions were being used.  He then told the landowner that if she permitted any more overnight stays she would be prosecuted.  As well as this he said he would put a section 13 order on the land preventing it being used by exempted organisations and an order under the Town and Country Planning Act that would prevent any development at all.  The land was being used by one caravan for one or two nights but the use had gone over the 28 day limit.  

The fine is not devastating, but the other sanctions could be catastrophic.



> For example he could approach you, and you can say you'll be off in the morning. He can say "it's OK by me, but I may be prosecuted if I allow you to stay for sanctioning a camp without planning on my land" You can counter with "no you can't because I am only here for one night and there is an exemption for stays of up to two nights by a single unit"



You are wrong in your example.  The exemption has no effect if it has happened more than 28 days in a calender year by any caravan, (a vehicle towed or self propelled and adapted or constructed for human habitation).  The landowner is responsible for keeping records of these stays to show he has not exceeded the 28 day limit.

He may have a defence by puting up signs saying he "No Overnighting" showing that he does not give permission for someone to stay.  The sign has no actual legal standing, but does show that he is not allowing the overnighting to happen. 

Whether he has given permission or not the number of days cannot exceed 28 days.

This law is not applied to truck drivers who have accomodation in their cabs as this was not possible when the act was drafted in the 1950s.  The definition of a caravan would seem to cover such vehicles.  Such vehicles would not be welcome on caravan sites so a blind eye is turned.

My opinion is that if it is not equally applied it is bad law.  Natural England say the Act is out of date, but that it will not be amended due to the cost of redrafting new legislation.

John


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## John H (Aug 9, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> Natural England say the Act is out of date, but that it will not be amended due to the cost of redrafting new legislation.



This excuse is , of course, a nonsense. The costs are fixed. Our system does not work on the basis of employing people short-term every time a new law needs to be drafted; our system works on the basis that the civil servants, systems and buildings needed are there all the time and paid for whether there are ten or no new laws to be drafted that week. 

I would not argue with your interpretation of the 1960 Act but I think it needs to be pointed out that the original issue was about highway land, not about private land, so the Act would not apply in that case and I have been told several times by the police that they are just not interested in prosecuting motorhomers who are sensibly and legally parked, whatever the time of day. It would be interesting to find out whether anybody out there knows of any motorhomer who HAS been prosecuted for parking overnight in lay-bys etc. in places where a local TRO does not apply.


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## Smaug (Aug 9, 2012)

John H said:


> This excuse is , of course, a nonsense. The costs are fixed. Our system does not work on the basis of employing people short-term every time a new law needs to be drafted; our system works on the basis that the civil servants, systems and buildings needed are there all the time and paid for whether there are ten or no new laws to be drafted that week.
> 
> (snip)



But someone has to draft & propose a new Bill. The initial draft Bill would be drawn up by Lawyers, presumeably employed by Natural England as bill sponsors. That is likely to be very costly. It is very unlikely to be sponsored by the current Govt & was not in their manifesto. Sure it will go to the relevant Ministry Civil Servants to turn into an Act of law following debates & amendments, but the real problem in the process is always debating time in Parliament - successive governments have been churning out new laws at ever increasing rates for many years. Even the current mob, who promised to reduce red tape & regulation have actually done quite the opposite.


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## sean rua (Aug 9, 2012)

Once again I'd like to point out that Mr Thompson has a thorough knowledge and understanding of the 1960 Laws
that were brought in, basically, to try to stamp out the travelling way of life.
  The lawmakers basic principle was that if they could make it difficult to park up, then they could succeed in reducing the number of folk travelling the roads as a way of life.
 Indeed, they succeeded in this aim. The numbers of active Travellers left on the drom was decimated, with many choosing to join the settled community.

Of course, all this was a great fillip to the developers. Not only was their way cleared to obtain "marginal land", but also, they were able to play up the extra demand for housing. Hence, the " building boom" of the early Sixties ( quickly followed by the "Energy Crisis", however.)

In many ways, 'twas a masterstroke to put the onus of responsibility oin the landowners: these guys were/are solid pillars of the community and, by their very nature, weren't going anywhere ( except to sell out to the relentless pressure of the developers who could then impose their own restrictions on land use.)

So, though nowhere near as draconian as the the anti-traveller laws brought in by Queen Elizabeth 1, where she made it law that an Englishman was duty-bound to kill any "Egyptian" on sight ( they called Romanichals "Egyptians" in those days),
we can see that the Sixties legislation was a tremendous blow to the travelling way of life in Great Britain.

Finally, in response to the query of JohnH, I can tell you that there is at least one "motorhome" at Oak Lane, Crays Hill, Basildon, and
this was NOT exempted from the order to move issued by the council.
 As usual, the council has hit a few snags and things are not going smoothly for them, but it should be noted that this approach road (off Oak Lane) is privately owned by Travellers.
 However, so was/is Dale Farm - but just look at the devastation done by the council there! :sad:


sean rua.

( via proxy or whatever it is that "Roger" used when he came back for his farewell speech)


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## John H (Aug 9, 2012)

Smaug said:


> But someone has to draft & propose a new Bill. The initial draft Bill would be drawn up by Lawyers, presumeably employed by Natural England as bill sponsors. That is likely to be very costly. It is very unlikely to be sponsored by the current Govt & was not in their manifesto. Sure it will go to the relevant Ministry Civil Servants to turn into an Act of law following debates & amendments, but the real problem in the process is always debating time in Parliament - successive governments have been churning out new laws at ever increasing rates for many years. Even the current mob, who promised to reduce red tape & regulation have actually done quite the opposite.



It is ONLY Parliament that can pass a new law, so it doesn't matter how many lawyers anybody else employs, all they can do is put proposals before Parliament. Parliament will then decide whether they want to proceed or not and, if so, the Civil Service will draft the proposed new law. Any money spent by anybody else does not alter the fact that drafting a new law costs us taxpayers no more than not drafting a new law (unless you sack all the civil servants and draft no new laws!)


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## John H (Aug 9, 2012)

sean rua said:


> ........ in response to the query of JohnH, I can tell you that there is at least one "motorhome" at Oak Lane, Crays Hill, Basildon, and
> this was NOT exempted from the order to move issued by the council.



Hi Sean

The example you give is of an eviction from private land, where the 1960 Act would apply. I was asking if anybody knew of any successful prosecution against motorhomers parking overnight in lay-bys.


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## Deleted member 967 (Aug 9, 2012)

John H said:


> Hi Sean
> 
> The example you give is of an eviction from private land, where the 1960 Act would apply. I was asking if anybody knew of any successful prosecution against motorhomers parking overnight in lay-bys.



Apart from TROs I can see no reason why a motorcaravan that is not causing an obstruction of a layby and is complying with other laws would be prosecuted.  You may be asked to move on.  If there were 6 or more persons or vehicles involved that are refusing to move on, then there are laws to enable a forced move.  For a single vehicle a landowner would have to go to court and get an order to move the vehicle and occupier on.  Only then would it involve the Police if they refused.  

The first move is for the landowner or his representative to request you to move on.  There is an owner for every bit of land in this country.  If no owner can be found a piece of land or property can be fenced and occupied.  If the occupation goes unchalenged for a set time you can claim ownership at Land Registry.

The Highway is owned just like any other land.  Even unfenced common land has an owner (the commoners) and restrictions on driving on it apply.

John


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## Firefox (Aug 9, 2012)

> *Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights
> 2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
> site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
> site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
> on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights*



John, this is the bit I'm referring.

All the bit about 28 days etc is irrelevant, as I'm assuming in my example you just turn up on a bit of land for a night, and you haven't been there before, and neither has anyone else.

The land owner, knowing all this, would be wrong to say he could get done for a one or two night stay by yourself, as there is a clear exemption for a single unit for up to two nights.

I think this is quite useful for members to know.


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## John H (Aug 9, 2012)

John Thompson said:


> Apart from TROs I can see no reason why a motorcaravan that is not causing an obstruction of a layby and is complying with other laws would be prosecuted.



Hi Sean

This is exactly my point. The original post was about parking in a lay-by and, although the other points that have been made since about private land are very valid, I was trying to bring the thread back to the original point and let people know that they need not worry unduly about parking overnight in such a location unless there is a specific TRO. I asked the question about anyone knowing of prosecutions in the almost certain knowledge that nobody would come back with an example - because the police are just not interested in such prosecutions.


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## sean rua (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks to all for their replies.

JohnH,
        Obviously I'm no lawyer, but, I am under the impression that the police/council/government have jurisdiction
over the "highway" which, as well as the carriageway, includes
all verges, lay-by s, or anything else up until the start of "private property" on both sides.

I remember a mate of mine sleeping off a session in Bodmin carpark. He had put the ignition in the boot.
 When wakened by the police, they told him that he could still be breathalised here, if they so wished. They seemed to suggest that the carpark was just an extension of the highway, in this respect.

As it happens, they didn't take any action, as 'twas clear he wasn't doing anything but sleeping. I must admit that I do not fully understand the intricacies of the law in these cases. There seem to be plenty of "variables" in my opinion.:egg:

sean rua.


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## John H (Aug 9, 2012)

sean rua said:


> Thanks to all for their replies.
> 
> JohnH,
> Obviously I'm no lawyer, but, I am under the impression that the police/council/government have jurisdiction
> ...



Hi Sean

Your mate's experience would seem to back up my point that the police are just not interested in people sleeping in vehicles on the highway, providing they are not breaking any other law. And it is interesting that nobody has yet provided an example of anybody who HAS been prosecuted in these circumstances. The message, clearly, is "keep your head down and don't worry". :wave:


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## ricc (Aug 9, 2012)

as i understand it the council / highways authority only control adopted roads,,,, some trading estates are privatly owned... our local one is privatly owned so "policing" of the roads is down to the owner... theres yellow lines in places but plod cant do anyone for parking on them.   a lot of the local rural untarmaced tracks  are actually owned by the adjoining landowners,

if a layby is tarmaced its probably part of the highway .... if its untarmaced  its likely the council aint the responsible body and its actually owned privatly or by another body.

from a landowners prospective getting shot of a group of travellers is a long drawn out legal nightmare....unless youve got the balls to spray them with manure.,,,
 imho theres a lot of posturing by officialdom laying down the law which they cant actually enforce, but a lot of people beleive that officials only ever tell the truth and are perceived to have powers which dont actually exist.


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## sean rua (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, I'm pretty sure from past experience that action taken by authorities in regard to private property depends largely on who exactly are perceived to be the private owners. In other words, there may be a law that is supposed to apply universally ( bar all the legal exceptions that always pertain), but,
in execution,
we find that some are treated differently from others.
Nothing unusual: it happens all over the world and probably always will.

Personally, I am NOT convinced that much of the land we see is actually owned by those who claim it. Historically, this would seem almost impossible to prove, but, generally, the latest whim or fancy of some judge ( until overturned by another, equally subjective) holds in line with " possesion being nine tenths of the Law".

When we consider how heroes of English folklore such as Robin Hood lived in the trees while his enemy lived in the castle, it is difficult to see how even Friar Tuck , Maid Marion, or King Richard the Lionheart could sort out the paperwork. This, despite the legend that Hood was the rightful lord and master of all he surveyed around Sherwood, makes me wonder
about the current state of play in the land.

When we consider all the centuries of dodgy dealing by bankers and lawyers that must have gone on since then, it would be amazing if the Land Registration Office has managed to get things absolutely squeaky clean, imo. 
Far more likely that, just as in brag or poker, richest man wins, that those able to to dominate proceedings stayed on top of the pile ( till toppled ).

--

The same sort of "survival of the fittest" would apply to manure spraying, imo. You or I do it, we'd be in the calaboose; somebody else, with the "right credentials" would be commended and honoured as a national hero.
 There again, it's not always clear cut. I remember the case of a guy who got so vexed by some bggr who parked in his way that he discharged his lorryload of readymixed concrete into the moosh's car through the open window!
He was done for it.

Goodness knows what would happen if one of these here big white plastic ice-cream vans got concreted in. 

I suppose the blame would go onto the landowner - if they could ever find out who exactly that was. :egg:

---

Btw, that 1994 Act is the clincher. If they have trouble with the 1960 stuff, that 1994 one is almost unbeatable, imo.

:scooter:


sean rua.


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## Roadagent (Aug 10, 2012)

Just driven past Marazion layby, en-route to Boardmasters gig..
Six hippie trucks with chimneys and a couple of flash motorhomes.
Looks clean and tidy as far as I could see.
:dance:


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## vwalan (Aug 10, 2012)

bet at the marazion end there was an ex horse box conversion. it was there when i looked the other day. there was a white one in front of it both with chimneys . 
but not making a mess .just parked there. in fact almost you could say all looked very clean .just a bit aged. 
there was mention that last sunday morning early there were also m,homes on the council run carparks close by and on the old station carpark. the campsite folk thought that was wrong . i did ask how many cars were there as well but nobody had counted them. i did say a motor home is a category m1 that is really a car with a special body and should be tret as a car. 
when there was mention of perhaps no sleeping in vehicles i quickly informed them that it must be all vehicles and the same as the restricted parking all vehicles . i used the spanish /portugese directive as to parking verses camping . the parish council kind of almost agreed but would like to monitor it all for longer. lets hope every one parks not camps .


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## Smaug (Aug 10, 2012)

vwalan said:


> bet at the marazion end there was an ex horse box conversion. it was there when i looked the other day. there was a white one in front of it both with chimneys .
> but not making a mess .just parked there. in fact almost you could say all looked very clean .just a bit aged.
> there was mention that last sunday morning early there were also m,homes on the council run carparks close by and on the old station carpark. the campsite folk thought that was wrong . i did ask how many cars were there as well but nobody had counted them. i did say a motor home is a category m1 that is really a car with a special body and should be tret as a car.
> when there was mention of perhaps no sleeping in vehicles i quickly informed them that it must be all vehicles and the same as the restricted parking all vehicles . i used the spanish /portugese directive as to parking verses camping . the parish council kind of almost agreed but would like to monitor it all for longer. lets hope every one parks not camps .



But motorhomes are classed as "caravans" by other laws. Not sure I want the law cleared up on this as i would rather be able to chose which title was more beneficial in any given situation! Caravan road tax would be nice!


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## vwalan (Aug 10, 2012)

you cant have your cake and eat it. by at least getting equal oportunities for m,homes and cars seems fair .banning m,homes means banning cars isnt what the council want or any tourist board so i think its the best of the evils. 
course i could have done ,said nothing and just let the campsite win. 
let them just ban m,homes would that please you.
as most never really bother to take part in defending m,homes rights maybe i shouldnt have bothered ..


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## sagart (Aug 10, 2012)

sean rua said:


> Personally, I am NOT convinced that much of the land we see is actually owned by those who claim it. Historically, this would seem almost impossible to prove, but, generally, the latest whim or fancy of some judge ( until overturned by another, equally subjective) holds in line with " possesion being nine tenths of the Law".
> sean rua.



Had some experience of this some years ago in Whitworth, Lancashire.
A local "landowner"suddenly claimed he owned the site of the parish church's demolished Sunday School building (demolished in the 1800's) and no proof was required of him for this.
The church however had to produce evidence that it had used the site for over 100 years and that it had been known as the "church's" for over 50 years to contradict his claim.
Personal experience? I was vicar there at the time Whitworth Town Council - Places of Worship


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