# Parking Fine at Motorway Services



## applecore (Sep 30, 2010)

Just got back from Holiday to find a fine from a RoadChef services we stopped  overnight -  I was to tired to drive any further.

Any advise from other who have been through this?


----------



## David & Ann (Sep 30, 2010)

I am careful it does not happen to me. I am aware that you are allowed up to 2 hours free parking. After that you must pay according to type of Vechile, cars are £8 Trucks are £12. Campers would come under the £12 bracket. This of course was 3 years ago. I don't know what the charges are now.
This is the only country in the world that I know of that charges parking in a rest place. Maybe I am wrong but I have not come across one that does so.


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Sep 30, 2010)

applecore said:


> Just got back from Holiday to find a fine from a RoadChef services we stopped  overnight -  I was to tired to drive any further.
> 
> Any advise from other who have been through this?


 


> Here at Roadchef we welcome touring customers and are working hard to ensure that, *through our partnership with The Caravan Club*, we understand and satisfy your needs most effectively.
> 
> All of our car parks are large and spacious with, in some cases, specific signage to guide caravanners and motor caravan customers to the most appropriate area. In some cases touring customers can also utilise larger parking bays created for coaches, caravans and motor caravans and wherever possible they are kept away from HGV parking areas. Furthermore, we are currently in the process of reviewing the directional signage in and out of our parking areas with a view to improving site circulation in the future.
> 
> Indeed, Roadchef has recently announced a £150,000 Capital Works Programme, designed to regenerate its car, touring and coach parking areas, particularly at older sites, in order to achieve more effective segregation and improve conditions by repairing potholes, improving drainage and reducing the amount of litter. In addition money will also be spent on access roads to improve conditions after the particularly severe winter of 2010.



No sign of them putting in Aire or bourne facilities.  The service areas expect that if they let you to stop, you probably will spend money in their facilities.  

They do charge for stays over 2 hours but the rates vary according to the location of the services.



> to avoid any confusion, we feel that is important to point out that for stays of over 2 hours, where a valid parking ticket has not been purchased, a penalty charge of £80 will be incurred,



I have read on other forums that people ignore these charges and the letters get more and more threatening including court action.  They also say do not respond to any of the letters.  They claim no one seems to have been taken to court for not paying and the letter stop if they are ignored.  

I do not advocate this line of action, just passing on the info.

John


----------



## Firefox (Sep 30, 2010)

I think it is all done on ANPR now so these fines are automated.

I believe you can stay longer than 2 hours in the Caravan/lorry bays  for a small charge, I think it is £5 or £8 so they do cater in that respect.

Basically it is just to stop people going to airports etc sharing cars and leaving vehicles for days and weeks but we get the crap as usual.

I'd be interested to see if they don't bother to prosecute these cases.


----------



## maingate (Sep 30, 2010)

If it happens to me, I will ignore all requests or demands for payment. 

Too many people have ignored them and not suffered any prosecution.


----------



## Firefox (Sep 30, 2010)

The thing though, is they may prosecute some as warnings.  They don't have to take it to court it's up to them to recover the debt or write it off.

But your expectation on ignoring is probably hugely positive. 

Say £80 if you pay up.


Or £80+ court costs = £200-300(?)+  (x chance of successful prosecution) (1 in 10?) = probably only £20 or £30

Just plead guilty by proxy if they have photographic evidence which will stand up.


----------



## bevdrew (Sep 30, 2010)

I have also read that people just ignore these and eventually the company stops sending letters etc.

One thing that I would ask is, can they prove who was driving/in charge of vehicle at the time of the alleged "offence"? If not then don't pay.


----------



## Firefox (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't think the "who was driving" excuse will work.

Since the offence is not related to licence points, they charge the keeper of the vehicle, and it is up to the keeper to recover the money from the driver, that they (presumably) gave permission to drive. This is the way local authorities get you. They just bill the keeper and provide photographic evidence the vehicle was in the place stated. Also similar, the congestion charge, LEZ, etc etc.


----------



## maingate (Sep 30, 2010)

my Brother-in-law was recently sent a demand for payment of £80 for overstaying in a Road Chef. If you pay up within 28 days, youonly pay £50.

How kind of them.


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

Two good ways forward for you. Firstly contact vwalan - he's an absolute expert in this area of law.

Secondly I think he will probably suggest you put all original paperwork back in the original envelope. Put a sticker over the address and write on it, "No Contract, Return To Sender" 

Do not put a stamp on it or recognise it in any other way whatsoever, just send it back. If there's no address on the envelope to send it to, just post it in the post box. May sound strange but suspect it will sort it for you!


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

Or Charge or Demand Rebuttal Template 1.1 follow this link and send this to them.

Do not pay it and at no stage admit to being under contract with them.


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> I am careful it does not happen to me. I am aware that you are allowed up to 2 hours free parking. After that you must pay according to type of Vechile, cars are £8 Trucks are £12. Campers would come under the £12 bracket. This of course was 3 years ago. I don't know what the charges are now.
> This is the only country in the world that I know of that charges parking in a rest place. Maybe I am wrong but I have not come across one that does so.


 
Wrong! A motorhome is a car as classed by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Under Category M1 a motorhome is very clearly classified as a car with a special body.


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

I know this will seem really cranky if you've not come across it before, but it works! Any questions feel free to phone me 01443 675900. Basically by giving them notice and conditionally accepting the fine you are removing ALL controversy. You state quite clearly the evidence you need from them. If they try to take it to court it will be dismissed as there is no controversy - you have accepted their fine subject to them doing x,y and z! As I said the wording may seem cranky, but stick EXACTLY to it and send it off to them.



This is the FMOTL way :

In care of: 
your address here
Near: [postcode] 
Date here, 2009

Re: ref number , dated date of summons etc
Notice of Discharge of Outstanding Demand and Request for Clarification. 

{Manager 
Central Process Unit 
PO Box 273 
Blackburn 
BB1 2XA } or which ever authority you are under.

Dear Sirs, 

Please read the following notice thoroughly and carefully before responding. It is a notice. It informs you. It means what it says. 

The reason why you need to read carefully is simple. I am offering conditional agreement. This removes controversy, and means that you no longer have any ultimate recourse to a court of law in this matter, because there is no controversy upon which it could adjudicate. You always have the option of dragging these conditions into a court of law only to be told that they are, indeed, perfectly lawful. That is, of course, always your prerogative should you decide to waste your time. 

For this reason it is important that you consider and respond to the offer in substance. The 'nearest official form' will not suffice, and consequently is likely to be ignored by myself without any dishonour on my part. 

On the other hand there is a time-limit on the agreement being offered. It is reasonable, and if it runs out then you and all associated parties are in default, removing any and all lawful excuse on your part for proceeding in this matter. 

For these reasons it is recommended that you carefully consider this notice and respond in substance, which means actually addressing the points raised herein. 

You have apparently made demands upon me. 

I do not understand those apparent demands and therefore cannot lawfully fulfil them. I seek clarification of your document so that I may act according to the law and maintain my entire body of inalienable Natural Rights. 

Failure to accept this offer to clarify and to do so completely and in good faith within 7 (seven) days will be deemed by all parties to mean you and your principal or other parties abandon all demands upon me. 

I conditionally accept your offer to agree that I am legal fiction 'person' your full name here and in capitals’ and that I must furnish you with details for consideration for forfeiture rendered by your company, upon proof of claim of all of the following: 

1. Upon proof of claim that I am a person, and not a human being. 

2. Upon proof of claim that you know what a 'person' actually is, in legal terms. 

3. Upon proof of claim that you know the difference between a 'human being' and a 'person', legally speaking. 

4. Upon proof of claim that you know the difference between 'legal' and a 'lawful'. 

5. Upon proof of claim that I am legal fiction 'person' full name here in capitals again, being the entity to which your paperwork was addressed, and notChristain name: of theSurname family, as commonly called. 

6. Upon proof of claim that the charge was the result of a lawful investigation unmarred by prejudice. 

7. Upon proof of claim that I am a member of the society whose statutes and subsisting regulations you are enforcing. 

8. Upon proof of claim that I showed you some sort of identification. 

9 Upon proof of claim that there is a nameable society that I belong to and that the laws covered within any alleged transgressions state that they apply to me within that named society.

Sincerely and without ill will, vexation or frivolity, 

Christian name: of the Surname family 
WITHOUT PREJUDICE, i.e. all Natural Inalienable Rights Reserved 
Please address all future correspondence in the matter to a direct Human Self, namely Christain name of the Surname family, as commonly called.


----------



## Firefox (Sep 30, 2010)

Well it seems I was wrong about the driver/keeper, they only have right to charge the Driver.

This is actually a minefield:

Try this link:

FAQs - Private Parking Companies/Charges (everything you need to know)

The long and the short of it is, as I understand it now, *yes* you are legally liable for fine, if you admit you were the driver and you were aware of the parking restriction and entered into a "contract" with them by parking there and understanding the terms of the parking agreement.

*But....  *if you refuse to admit you were the driver or you were aware of the terms of the contract, then the onus on them is to prove all that, which they are unlikely to be able to do. So you basically have a loop hole to "get off" by lying, playing silent, and not cooperating. As usual the law is a bit of an ass!

This is only true for a private enforcement company. Public authorities and the police have much greater powers to get you!


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

Firefox said:


> Well it seems I was wrong about the driver/keeper, they only have right to charge the Driver.
> 
> This is actually a minefield:
> 
> ...


 

Hence my initial suggestion to just send it back to them No Contract - Return To Sender.

The legal definition of a contract is very clear and it will be impossible for them to prove you have entered into one with them. For goodness sake don't pay it! However nasty the letters get, they are just words and are not enforecable. 

I've outlined several options - both manicmerc and vwalan will advise you on similar lines as myself I suspect and are VERY knowledgeable about the subject.


----------



## Firefox (Sep 30, 2010)

In a sense the law is silly because most people I'm sure know they were the driver and they were aware of the restrictions, so there was an unwritten contract, but they are just seeking a loophole to avoid paying.

But at the same time, it is doing its job, because I'm sure some people will pay to cover the costs of all the "enforcement" and enough people are ignorant enough of the full situation (I certainly was) and thus the car parks are kept free enough of the long term parkers to be usable.

Put it this way, one may not like getting threatening letters, but on the other hand, I'm sure we'd all expect to turn up at a services and get a space to break the journey. If the car park was full all the time, people would be bitterly complaining too, so there are two sides to this coin!


----------



## vwalan (Sep 30, 2010)

we said that with out moving our lips. 
thanks casper .you have read alot . john will be here in a minute . 
just follow the law . let them do the actions . it may be they havent got a leg to stand on. even the police and the local authority break the law more times than us. there is many miss justice done because people lay on their backs and tip their wallet at the first hurdle. remember they employ people to break the law just to suit them. it takes a court order to make you pay. but more than likely they cant make it stick. its up to the people of this country to stand up for law and order . do not let the authority run rough shod over the people it supposed to be working for. they only win because most people decide to be a loser . be a winner and stand up to miss use of authority. after all they make the rules then break them and punish you. 
cheers alan.


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

Firefox said:


> In a sense the law is silly because most people I'm sure know they were the driver
> 
> Sorry to be a pain, but do you know the lawful definition of a driver? The person "driving" the car as most understand it is not necessarily driving. I know it sounds gobbledegook but it's true!


----------



## jayeastanglia (Sep 30, 2010)

can answer this for you as i worked for a company that did this sort of thing....Legally dont pay it as the company has to pay the initial court fee(its a cival case btw)and any judge in a cival case will not allow it to go any further as there fine is not a reasonable charge..DO NOT respond to any letters sent just bin them......BUT if the car park is council owned which motorway services are NOT.DO NOT ignore any council/trafic warden tickets as they are legally inforced...Basically ignore any letters and any calls or door knocks just say i will go to court.I would say in honestly The conpany i worked for never took any case to court they just hoped people would just pay up..


----------



## caspar (Sep 30, 2010)

jayeastanglia said:


> can answer this for you as i worked for a company that did this sort of thing....Legally dont pay it as the company has to pay the initial court fee(its a cival case btw)and any judge in a cival case will not allow it to go any further as there fine is not a reasonable charge..DO NOT respond to any letters sent just bin them......BUT if the car park is council owned which motorway services are NOT.DO NOT ignore any council/trafic warden tickets as they are legally inforced...Basically ignore any letters and any calls or door knocks just say i will go to court.I would say in honestly The conpany i worked for never took any case to court they just hoped people would just pay up..



You're right - private land = civil case, council land = criminal case. I would still cover yourself by issuing them with the notice outlined above. This then means that if they try to take you to court they can't as you have conditionally agreed to pay so there is no controversy. This letter has been proven to work hundreds if not thousands of times.


----------



## Deleted member 2636 (Oct 1, 2010)

***** said:


> one of our smaller trucks, a 7.5 toner was clamped at a service area and money had to be sent before they would release the vehicle. )



A practise that is, hopefully, soon to be properly regulated?


----------



## applecore (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks for the help folks.

Just for the record here is what happened.

I got up at 6am with the kids, then did a full days work and left home at 7pm to go on holiday. Aim was to stop at the ferry port.

At 1am I was out of Fuel and very tired so decided to stop at the next services on the Motorway to rest. I am the only legal driver of vehcile.

Pulled into services and looked for signs to guide me to parking area.

There was a choice of Car or Lorry Parking.

I chose the Lorry Park as its usually with Motohome / Caravan area.

I parked in one of the Bays and took the dog out for a walk.

I assumed that parking at services was free but decided to  look around for any obvious signs anyway - it was very dark and I dint see any.

Went to bed.

Woke up a few hours later and set off for the Ferry as we were running late.

Didnt think to check for signs in the daylight - so I really sont know if there are any.

GOt back from holiday to get the notice.

By the way - I dont actually mind paying to park I just didnt see any notice to say I should and nobodu approachem me to ask me to.

Also how is it that DVLA are allowed to give owner information to a Private Company?


----------



## applecore (Oct 1, 2010)

Garth Quote:- "They are providing a service but it is our choice if or not we use them"

Not really on a Motorway its the only realistic place to stop if you feel fatigued - you can't pack on the hard sholder and there are no laybys.

Better to stop then Risk an accident!

But then an £80.00 claim makes you think - shall I go on and risk an accident.


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

***** said:


> What has not been mentioned is the signs clearly posted in the car parks at most if not all service areas.
> 
> It has. If you read the 2002 Act I mentioned at the start it lays down legal dimensions, size and font of lettering etc... for every sign that exists. BUT, the reason I didn't go into this is that if they have CCTV footage of you reading a sign, even if it's illegal as you rightly say most are, is that they then have argument of contract which you want to avoid.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kontiki (Oct 1, 2010)

What I don't like are the signs just before the service area saying that tirdness can kill & to take a break. To me 2 hours is sufficient time to have a short rest before continuing, I agree that the costs are too high also from memory there is no option other than 2 hours free or 24 hours for an unreasonable amount. What would be fairer & probably more people would do it if they charged an hourly rate (personally on safety grounds they should be free or very cheap to encourage you not to drive when tired). Who wants to spend 24 hours on a motorway services .

There should be parking areas the same as on the continent with just a toilet.


----------



## franke (Oct 1, 2010)

*bin it*



applecore said:


> Just got back from Holiday to find a fine from a RoadChef services we stopped  overnight -  I was to tired to drive any further.
> 
> Any advise from other who have been through this?


 
RoadChef have no special powers of arrest or inclination to hunt you down my advise is to bin it, but that's up to you , I always do when private companies try to "fine" me etc. Real parking tickets are more difficult to avoid, so try to not pick them up, thats the cheapest and easiest method. Good camping and dont be bullied.


----------



## applecore (Oct 1, 2010)

How are they allowed details from DVLA?

I phoned DVLA and asked for details on the owner of plate XXXX and was told they could not give me the info.


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

applecore said:


> How are they allowed details from DVLA?
> 
> I phoned DVLA and asked for details on the owner of plate XXXX and was told they could not give me the info.



If you were licensed to run a car park / wheel clamping company etc.... they'd give you the details.

It is actually possible to unregister your car with the DVLA but that takes you into a whole different arena.

Did you know when you register your car with the DVLA you hand over legal ownership to them in exchange for being allowed to use it on the road subject to their conditions -ie- road tax etc...? This means they're not handing out ownership details, only details of the registered keeper.

I could go on with a whole lot more but I won't!


----------



## coolasluck (Oct 1, 2010)

No go on Caspar it is real interesting and this is a good thread.
I was also of the opinion of paying council or goverment tickets but not private ones,so at least i have that right 

You are right of course in that the private firms are hoping you will pay the ticket and line their pockets which of course most do.
Its a bit like the very obvious scam emails we all get,if the scams did not work and no one fell for them then we would not receive them in the first place,dont be bullied people,doesnt stop the other half from fretting though i dont suppose.

Now Caspar what was that about the DVLA?


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> No go on Caspar it is real interesting and this is a good thread.
> I was also of the opinion of paying council or goverment tickets but not private ones,so at least i have that right
> 
> You are right of course in that the private firms are hoping you will pay the ticket and line their pockets which of course most do.
> ...



How long have you got? It all stems back to your birth. Legally when you register anything you hand over entitlement / ownership to the corporation (and I use that word rather than person) you register it with. Hence when you register a birth you get a birth certificate, but hand over guardianship of your child to UK PLC. That is how the state can remove your child from you if it sees fit to do so.

Similarly when you register a car you hand over ownership of it in return for being allowed to use it subject to that corporations laws under statute law, NOT common law. This means you have to display a registration plate, tax it, hold a valid MOT etc... etc....

Going back to the birth bit, once given a birth certificate there are effectively two of you. Bear with me, I know this sounds stupid! There's a flesh and blood you called,eg, John: of the family Smith and there is a piece of paper, your birth certificate, which calls you John Smith. This piece of paper is known as your legal fiction and is what ALL official correspondance is addressed to - not you flesh and blood, the legal fiction you which is a piece of paper and so cannot represent itself in court etc....

You can see where this is going and it gets VERY complicated, but it is all true and lawful (there is a BIG difference between legal and lawful just as there is a BIG difference between being a person and a human being.)

When you are asked by the authorities do you understand? They actually are asking do you contract to stand under my authority. If you say you don't understand or stand under them, then things get interesting.

Unregistering your vehicle from the DVLA is quite possible and I can tell you how to do it. I am not for one moment condoning any breaking of law or using a vehicle in anything other than a road worthy condition and in a safe manner. (Did you know there's a BIG difference between driving and travelling?)

If you want to find out more, let me know and I'll send you links to a load of websites where you can get a lot of information. Rather than take over this forum, if you are interested e-mail me at davidlindley@sky.com and I'll e-mail you back!

It really does get very interesting and changes the way you start to look at things.

All the best,

David


----------



## David & Ann (Oct 1, 2010)

I would appreciate your thoughts and views on this topic of Parking at service stations on the Motorways. Firstly, I was under the impression that our road taxes was partially a means for building new roads and repairs of older roads, which I would think was inclusive of slip roads to and out of the Service stations. Question is, were the service station car parks paid through the Taxation or did the Private Companies that house their bussinesses on the service station build and paid for the car parks. If so, then it is fair to say they have a right to charge drivers for that privledge. If not, then I feel they should not charge for parking. 
I have only been in this country since 2005, so have very little knowledge of the situation. My apoligies for my ignorance.


----------



## vwalan (Oct 1, 2010)

hi , not all but most service stations are leased not actually bought . they are part of the infastructure. it gets alot more involved than just owning and charging . they can charge but cant fine . fines have to be through a court . penalties are are what we pay if parked on yellow lines etc there are several pieces on the way to deal with courts . ie give them the birth certificate and tell them you dont accept their  court . spend a few hours on the inter net and it .s all there . each one of us must find our own way through this lot of unlawfull unjustice , try it, do it at your own pace . there is no begining and no end . cheers alan.
we register a birth . we appear in a dock. it all relates to a distant past of admiralty law.


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Oct 1, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> I would appreciate your thoughts and views on this topic of Parking at service stations on the Motorways. Firstly, I was under the impression that our road taxes was partially a means for building new roads and repairs of older roads, which I would think was inclusive of slip roads to and out of the Service stations. Question is, were the service station car parks paid through the Taxation or did the Private Companies that house their bussinesses on the service station build and paid for the car parks. If so, then it is fair to say they have a right to charge drivers for that privledge. If not, then I feel they should not charge for parking.
> I have only been in this country since 2005, so have very little knowledge of the situation. My apoligies for my ignorance.


 
Hi David & Ann

Most of the older motorway service areas were built and paid for by taxpayers money.  Then privitisation came along and they were leased by the government department to private operators.  These leases have maintenance terms built into them as well as condition making it compulsorary that they allow parking for 2 hours without charge.

John


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi David & Ann
> 
> Most of the older motorway service areas were built and paid for by taxpayers money.  Then privitisation came along and they were leased by the government department to private operators.  These leases have maintenance terms built into them as well as condition making it compulsorary that they allow parking for 2 hours without charge.
> 
> John


 
That is probably correct. What is definitely correct is vwalan's statement they they can charge, but they cannot fine you. They will of course try and send you very official, nasty looking letters, but not one case has ever been taken to court as I understand things.


----------



## Byronic (Oct 1, 2010)

caspar said:


> If you were licensed to run a car park / wheel clamping company etc.... they'd give you the details.
> 
> It is actually possible to unregister your car with the DVLA but that takes you into a whole different arena.
> 
> ...



An interesting point, but the V5 document says (from memory)" that the person mentioned is the registered keeper and is not necessarily the legal owner of the vehicle"
It doesn't say the DVLA is, or becomes the legal owner. So the the wording implies that someone else may legally own the vehicle eg hire purchase company or someone with a lien over it.


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

Byronic said:


> An interesting point, but the V5 document says (from memory)" that the person mentioned is the registered keeper and is not necessarily the legal owner of the vehicle"
> It doesn't say the DVLA is, or becomes the legal owner. So the the wording implies that someone else may legally own the vehicle eg hire purchase company or someone with a lien over it.


 
All part of the con to tie you into a contract (or CONtract!!!!)! Watch this (a bit twee, but perfectly true):

http://www.landofthefree.co.uk/site...st-news/56-short-introduction-to-the-strawman 

When you've watched that, go onto You Tube and enter Robert Manard - see what he says, or go to A Forum for individual lawful rebellion in all its forms or Google Common Law or Court de jure - read what comes up - it may start you on quite a journey. It's all VERY enlightening.


----------



## applecore (Oct 1, 2010)

Ok Thanks for all the replies.

So I have 4 choices:-

Pay £50.00 now or £80.00 at later date
Ignore all letters (or drop in postbox for return)
Send Rebuttle Notice 
Send Caspers Letter

Ok Voters which should I do?
I'll go with the majority.


----------



## vwalan (Oct 1, 2010)

you can send them back and say nothing .then you are not in dscusion . they arent addressed to you . they are address ed to fiction. if you get in to dialogue you are forming a written agreemaent that you and they exist. you can just put unknown at this address and nothing more. at this stage the less said the better. 
cheers alan.


----------



## vwalan (Oct 1, 2010)

you can send them back and say nothing .then you are not in dscusion . they arent addressed to you . they are addressed to fiction. if you get in to dialogue you are forming a written agreement that you and they exist. you can just put unknown at this address and nothing more. at this stage the less said the better. 
cheers alan.


----------



## caspar (Oct 1, 2010)

Send my letter - it works. But so would ignoring all letters or returning with no contract - return to sender on it. Just don't pay it!


----------



## David & Ann (Oct 1, 2010)

vwalan said:


> hi , not all but most service stations are leased not actually bought . they are part of the infastructure. it gets alot more involved than just owning and charging . they can charge but cant fine . fines have to be through a court . penalties are are what we pay if parked on yellow lines etc there are several pieces on the way to deal with courts . ie give them the birth certificate and tell them you dont accept their  court . spend a few hours on the inter net and it .s all there . each one of us must find our own way through this lot of unlawfull unjustice , try it, do it at your own pace . there is no begining and no end . cheers alan.
> we register a birth . we appear in a dock. it all relates to a distant past of admiralty law.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan, If what you say is true, that the Govt: leases the property, don't we the motorist feel it is wrong to make us pay through our taxes for the building of services stations and then leasing them out, to then me charged to use the same facilities. What comes to mind is that we pay a tax to use the road, then pay again to park on an area we have already paid. The mind, my mind boggles.


----------



## Byronic (Oct 1, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Alan, If what you say is true, that the Govt: leases the property, don't we the motorist feel it is wrong to make us pay through our taxes for the building of services stations and then leasing them out, to then me charged to use the same facilities. What comes to mind is that we pay a tax to use the road, then pay again to park on an area we have already paid. The mind, my mind boggles.


 
Not forgetting that the wages that you pay with have also been taxed,  and so it all goes round ad infinitum


----------



## vwalan (Oct 1, 2010)

do a bit of homework .i have no reason to lie. they very often put it out to tender as well. just like the petrol stations on motorways . remember we live in a corupt society . unfortunately its not been the right thing in the past to disclose the wrong doings of our leaders . many of us have had enough and now stand our ground and say why should i be abused by the authority we should be trusting. we have it here in cornwall . the county council issue blue badges for disabled parking but dont allow disabled people to use a car that asnt got disabled tax in the window. your disability doesnt get better depending on the car you drive, the badge is for the person not the car. i have had a penalty dropped by them when i queried their logic. i call it theft. there as also been an audit here and they have found it costs more to police the parking than the revenue it gets back from the policing. there as been an article in our local paper about this . bad managment yet again. cheers alan.


----------



## jayeastanglia (Oct 1, 2010)

dont pay anything....and dont communicate with the letter sender..just throw them away in the bin..


----------



## Bernard Jones (Oct 3, 2010)

The consensus seems to be ignore it as they can't enforce it. £80 is too much.  Being a Private Company they have no more right to send you an £80 fine, than you have to send them an £80 fine if you didn't like their food.  I understand that.  (Not that I always condone parking on someone else's land without paying as some drivers take the piss) 

But what I don't understand is if they wheelclamp you and charge you far more, why can't you get this money back?


----------



## vwalan (Oct 3, 2010)

carry a genny and an angle grinder or a big pair of bot croppers . soon get rid of that. or if your camper as plenty of room a small portapack of oxy /acet bit like being trapped in some carparks cut the lock into loads of bits. or cut the chain into wrist bands . works for me. cheers alan.


----------



## Tbear (Oct 3, 2010)

vwalan said:


> carry a genny and an angle grinder or a big pair of bot croppers . soon get rid of that. or if your camper as plenty of room a small portapack of oxy /acet bit like being trapped in some carparks cut the lock into loads of bits. or cut the chain into wrist bands . works for me. cheers alan.


 
Try a clay pot of Thermite (as seen on top gear) it really does burn well above the melting point of steel and there are recipes on the net to make it. Just rust and Ali. Plus you get fireworks. I would not recommend it being used too close to your van


----------



## Bernard Jones (Oct 4, 2010)

Well if the Motorway Service Area operators did wheelclamp you so you were trapped on their premises, you could make good use of your time by staging a demonstration against their rip off charges.  If you did it right, driving customers away, they would tire of it before you would.  I guess thats why Motorway Service Operators are more reluctant to wheelclamp you that the wheelclamp companies that don't depend on a reasonable public image to attract customers?

Not so effective staging a demonstration when they clamp somebody on an industrial estate (and demand £1000+ )  A working man with a vanload of urgent parcels, instead of a motorhome and plenty of time to spare. What I don't understand is, if a court won't enforce an £80 parking charge, why can't people go to court and get these £1,000+ charges back from the wheelclamp cowboys?


----------



## vwalan (Oct 4, 2010)

its very simple .if you have read the previous posts . once you send or pay the penalty you have accepted the contract. if you then try to go to court you cant win as you accepted it. thats why . its just a matter of following a set pattern. try following the correct patern. there is loads of info on the web, and its all very basic instructions . there is nothing special about the people that make laws .they are highly educated but may not be highly intelligent, just highly educated .there is a difference. its always up to the people to change things but most just follow the wrong pattern tip their hat and open their purse and hand out big wadds of cash to the unlawfull element. 
cheers alan.


----------



## coroner (Oct 6, 2010)

just ignore it its an invoice they have no right to demand the name of the driver from the registered keeper and any alleged or implied contract is with the driver they will sent lots of letters demands court threats etc but ignore them they will go away have a look at martin lewiss moneysavingexpert site


----------



## Canalsman (Oct 6, 2010)

coroner said:


> ... have a look at martin lewiss moneysavingexpert site


 
Just here Private Parking Tickets: Tickets are often invalid, don't pay....


----------



## Campervanman (Oct 6, 2010)

Careful if you dont pay up and revisit the site, or any other sites that the company own. I recently read a notice on the M11 Stanstead service station that you 'could' be clamped for a previous outstanding payment. This really shook me as I have an outstanding payment at the M1 Toddington services, not likely to revisit there but if I visit one of the companys other sites. Thankfully wheel clamping will soon be made illegal. Anyone know when this will be please?

I quote the sign... "Vehicles with unpaid Parking Charges may be immobilised on return to any Welcome Break site (Parking Charge fee and clamp fee to be paid before release)"


----------



## sasquatch (Oct 6, 2010)

My advice is to ignore it. It is not a fine just an invoice for staying over. This situation is rediculous,there are signs stating that tiredness kills-take a break,when we do we are penalised.
I received one early in June when travelling back from Portsmouth,it was at about 2am in the morning and we were the only ones on the parking area, I doubt if our presence prevented anyone else from parking. 
Come to think of it I wonder if it was their attitude that stops people parking there. I am waiting for a reminder which I will also ignore
All I can say is 'How dare they?'. Could you imagine if this came to court I think they would be laughed out of court apart from their costs exceeding the original invoice.
Do not aknowledge it in anyway.


----------



## flower3bird (Oct 6, 2010)

Why aren't we all getting together and making an exhibition of these organisations who rip us off in this way - unlike France and even Germany!?

Have you seen the wonderful You Tube video where a singer got his guitar broken by one of the US Airlines?  He made a video where he sang a song of his poor experience, with them not paying up having ruined one of his expensive guitars. It has had some HUGE number of eye-balls watching it and there is egg all over the face of the Airline.  Really bad press for them................. that's the sort of thing we should be doing, not rolling over and giving in to these extortionists


----------



## themadsparkie (Jul 17, 2011)

Firefox said:


> The thing though, is they may prosecute some as warnings.  They don't have to take it to court it's up to them to recover the debt or write it off.
> 
> But your expectation on ignoring is probably hugely positive.
> 
> ...


 
My friend is currently setting up a company to undertake this type of action upon waste land parking or abuse of private facilities using automated systems, i am the tech guy, in reality we are reliant upon you responding to the snotty letters as it is extremely difficult to enforce such charges as they are a civil action taken by a private individual against another. As far as i am aware no prosecution has ever succeeded under these cirumstances but faith in our judicial system is not necessaily a good idea. just ignore it unless it becomes official!


----------



## themadsparkie (Jul 17, 2011)

sasquatch said:


> My advice is to ignore it. It is not a fine just an invoice for staying over. This situation is rediculous,there are signs stating that tiredness kills-take a break,when we do we are penalised.
> I received one early in June when travelling back from Portsmouth,it was at about 2am in the morning and we were the only ones on the parking area, I doubt if our presence prevented anyone else from parking.
> Come to think of it I wonder if it was their attitude that stops people parking there. I am waiting for a reminder which I will also ignore
> All I can say is 'How dare they?'. Could you imagine if this came to court I think they would be laughed out of court apart from their costs exceeding the original invoice.
> Do not aknowledge it in anyway.




there are two schools of thought:

they need to pay for the maintenance and overheads of the land (hgvs cause alot of tarmac wear wich is not cheap) therefore it is fair to expect payment

or

they earn enough from the facilities - is is not necessarily true as the premises are usually divided then sub let to separate enterprises with low margins on the communal areas

 what would you think if you owned the land or if your customers could not park as people have parked in your car park then buggered off, i can speak through experience.


----------



## Bernard Jones (Jul 17, 2011)

caspar said:


> private land = civil case, council land = criminal case



What about landowners like the National Trust, RSPB etc ?
is that civil, or criminal?


----------



## John H (Jul 17, 2011)

Just found this thread, having missed it the first time round - too busy enjoying myself in Portugal! 

It has developed into a very long thread but, as always, the best thing to do is keep it simple, so my advice to the OP would be this:

1. Cut through all the rest of the crap and follow the excellent advice on Martin Lewis' moneysavingexpert website, as has been suggeted above.

2. Ignore all the stuff about "freemen" and the difference between "real" people and "legal fictions" - and certainly don't waste your time going to the "cout de jure". It may be an interesting debating point but if you consult any reputable legal source you will find out that none of this stuff has any legal basis. And why go down that road when the answer is so simple?

And, Bernard, the RSPB, National Trust etc are private landowners for this purpose, so it would be civil not criminal. Happy travels.


----------



## Derbyshire (Jul 17, 2011)

We had a similar thing a year or so ago after our car broke down en route to a holiday. We had to get a hire car. The AA were due to collect the car not long after we left it in the car park - they actually didn't collect it until the following morning.

There is alsorts of legal stuff to do with these services tickets.

If you search the 'moneysavingexpert' website for parking charges, it will give you a lot of information, including where you stand legally. We found it most useful. We ignored all correspondence as directed, eventually got letters with red threats all over them. They eventually stopped, also as we were told they would from the advice on the above website. This was nearly 2 years ago and we've heard nothing since.


----------



## davesmiff (Aug 19, 2011)

*nice parking charge thread*

Excellent letter half way down thread.

TPS Parking Solutions Limited **WON**


----------



## avandriver (Aug 20, 2011)

DONT pay it .

As previously mentioned it is a Charge and not a Fine .


Steve


----------



## kenjones (Aug 20, 2011)

It's easy to be wise after the event.
We've stayed overnight in motorway services many times and paid the overnight charge in advance.
Our van fits a normal parking bay and uses similar space to a large 4x4. The only problem has been when we have been asked for the commercial charge rate. We have never paid more than the car rate.


----------



## fairytooth (Aug 20, 2011)

applecore said:


> Just got back from Holiday to find a fine from a RoadChef services we stopped  overnight -  I was to tired to drive any further.
> 
> Any advise from other who have been through this?


 
Tons of advice here cps plus limited motorway parking fine - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

Basically 'Don't pay' and ignore the letters, seems to be the generally accepted view.


----------



## joncris (Aug 20, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I don't think the "who was driving" excuse will work.
> 
> Since the offence is not related to licence points, they charge the keeper of the vehicle, and it is up to the keeper to recover the money from the driver, that they (presumably) gave permission to drive. This is the way local authorities get you. They just bill the keeper and provide photographic evidence the vehicle was in the place stated. Also similar, the congestion charge, LEZ, etc etc.


 
these patking 'fines' are unlawful AND they cannot charge the keeper The only time the keeper can be held liable is if they fail to notify the police (in the case of a speeding ticket) who the driver is in which case the penalty is the same for the keeper as it would have been for the offending driver Parking is a civil matter & NO ONE can insist you name the driver. The keeper cannot be held liable just because they are the DVLA _named_ keeper


----------



## donkey too (Aug 20, 2011)

One useful bit of information that may benefit some members, is that it is unlawful for anyone to clamp a vehicle that is displaying a valid Disabled persons parking consession card. (Blue Badge). whether on privete or public land or on the highway


----------



## earders3009 (Aug 20, 2011)

applecore said:


> Just got back from Holiday to find a fine from a RoadChef services we stopped  overnight -  I was to tired to drive any further.
> 
> Any advise from other who have been through this?


 
I got stung last year for exactly the same thing .  I had parked up and fallen asleep for about three hours. When we got back off hols I had a fine for £80 on the mat. I chose to ignore it and received another letter after the time limit and a nasty letter. The next fine was for £120.....
   Again I chose to ignore it and take my chances. The next fine was for £180. At this point I was getting a bit nervous and thought this is the last one i could ignore. Luckily I have not heard anything since. I think the aggresive letters are designed to put the wind up you. Its up to you whether you take the chance..!


----------



## vwalan (Aug 20, 2011)

hi, remember there is a parking revolution happening . just let people know on sites like this . if it should ever get to court . let us know where and when. support is around . only you can start it. there are solicitors barristers etc waiting to help those that stand up to injustice. 
its illegal to drive while tired . 
just like the signs issues talked on here . keep us informed . you arent alone . 
threatening letters sent by post are not allowed either . keep them they can be used in your favour in court. this country as rules its not ran by fear. thats mafia style . cheers alan.


----------

