# Motorhome with legal scooter rack



## forager

I intend to, eventually, buy a new motorhome but as it will then be my only transport, I need to carry a motor scooter. I am receiving extremely conflicting advice from van converters and manufacturers like "it will probably be OK" (useless, try telling that to the Police and insurers when you have had an accident). "It cannot be done legally" (probably true in most cases even though you see them about). Towbar manufacturers generally say no too, for example the nose wheel weight on my Renault Trafic LWB is only 85Kg (surprised me) and a scooter and rack is about 140Kg. Does anyone have any "real world technical experience" in this area? My choice of vehicle could be influenced by this. Seems like a full Alko chassis could be good but then if its a large overhang from the wheels it defeats the object. Van conversion looks good but even a new Renault Master is limited to 125 Kg nose weight. (unlikely to find a bike and rack at less than 140Kg)
Only need a small, compact 2 berth motorhome but as I'm 6'2 I cannot sleep across most vans. (been told the Peugeot boxer may be 150Kg nose weight but not confirmed). Have considered trailers but they are not really practical for me. Not expecting to get many replies on this one!

If I was any good at woodwork I would probably build my own with a garage and bed over (high roof). I could do the basics but when it comes to the rest like sinks, cupboards, comfy sofa, shower, I would be stuffed.


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## vwalan

hi try looking at rear wheel drive vans . think adding weight on the back of front wheel drive takes away traction and steering . 
plus you may have to consider not using a towbar but a proper chassis extension.
iveco daily or a renault mascot might be better for you.


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## forager

Thanks guys you seem to have got the idea straight away!
I think rear wheel drive may be the way to go if possible and I have contacted Towtal for their advice, looks a really good outfit.


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## kenspain

basildog said:


> Talk to people like towtal and ask them but then ask for it in writing !



This is from one happy customer from towtal 


STAY WELL AWAY FROM THAT LOT:mad1:


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## kenspain

You could say that cost me nearly 1,500  euros bad bad boys:mad2:


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## kenspain

Once they have your money the never want to talk to you again:mad2:


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## chubadub

hi, saw this at the IOM TT races this year might just be what your looking for. google, EASY-LIFTER Hydra trail, he had a buel on it.


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## landydriver

.


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## vwalan

yes stay away from towtal. 
they wouldnt know the truth if it ran them over. 
i spoke to them about kens little problem .got nothing but lies . they didnt know i had seen their letters . 
unfortunately they arent alone armitage are as bad .have seen them send out a bike rack with ilegal lights fitted on the back . seems alot are only after your money .


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## chubadub

or try Youtube* hydra trail.*


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## forager

Glad I enquired, learning so much. Think the penny has just dropped, the nosewight is nothing to do with the strength of the vehicle, its all to do with lifting the front wheels off the ground? When I think about it, I've lost traction in my bog standard  van on tight uphill hairpin bends. I did look at the
 EASY-LIFTER Hydra trail but was put off by the price (£1300) and reports of problems with the very small castoring wheels at high speed (and 50 mph speed limit).
However, looks like it may be back on the list (along with a rear wheel drive)as doesn't limit the choice of motorhome.


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## forager

Does anyone own one? 
Easy-Lifter Hydra Trail - Tel: 01509 268400 - £895 Inc VAT
Seem to have gone down a bit


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## kenspain

If i can find the German company that made mine in the end i will post it on here they are really good :wave:


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## forager

basildog said:


> It may sound silly but what about motorhome with a garage ?
> My old Laika wet down to Spain with a 650 and a 200 in the garage no problems !




No, does not sound silly at all, I was considering it but Chausson said not recommended (buy a trailer)


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## forager

kenspain said:


> If i can find the German company that made mine in the end i will post it on here they are really good :wave:



Thanks, is that a trailer then?


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## kenspain

No it,s a rack that go,s on the tow ball I had to have it passed by the Spanish ITV your mot so it was legal to use in Spain  I gave the one from towtal  to a friend and a weld snapped the first time he used it so i paid half the bill to get the scooter repaired :wave:


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## Byronic

Providing you don't have the scooter positioned too far from the the back axle then you don't have to worry much about the front losing traction, just simple physics, if the scooter weighs 100kg @ 1 metre from back axle then this can be counterbalanced by just 25kg positioned 4 metres to the front of the vehicle eg a 25 litres of water. Obviously the shorter the vehicle rear overhang the better.
What proves to be the more usual problem is overloading of the rear axle, more likely (but not necessarily) on sub 3500kg
vehicles. 
Some towball hitches I think have a max. 120 kg load limit, even though the vehicle manufacturer may have a 100 kg noseweight max. A custom made chassis mounted rack would be my preference, a scooter pivotting on a towball mount doesn't look too convincing, the ones I've seen seem to wobble a fair bit.


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## vwalan

i use a cliponoff bought from sammy miller the famous trials rider.its like a spectacle frame . dare say it could take a scooter .but i only chuck m,bikes on it .mind my 1500cc drifter is too heavy to lift.


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## neilmac

It all comes down to weight allowance which of course includes the rear axle weight. We have a fair old overhang with a 115kg scooter and a 30kg rack. 




Works very well, stays within weights in full touring trim... and the front wheels stay on the ground.

If your motorhome has the payload and axle weight allowance a rack is perfect, if it hasn't then get a trailer.


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## Byronic

Even a 120 Kg bike is hard to lift onto a spectacle rack single handed, that's why I made up a "proper rack" and ride up ramp on a van many years ago. 
I also understand that new vans have to have Type Approved racks, hitches, towballs, et al. So it looks like no more home bodges err I mean home made craftsmanship.


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## vwalan

just seen armitages scooter.bike rack on ebay .they still keep putting reflective triangles on the rear .triangles are for trailers only not extentions . could get the customer a fine for breaking construction and use . how can you trust a company thats so silly.


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## Tony Lee

Several issues with adding heavy stuff to the rear of any vehicle that simple physics and axle loadings just don't take into account - 

#Overhang rule. Maybe not in the UK but some places restrict the overhang - measured from the rearmost axle to the end of the vehicle or the extremity of anything hung on it - to 60%  of the distance between front and rear axles. In practice, given that many motorhomes are right on that limit out of the showroom, not even a bike rack can be added to the rear.

#Chassis strength. Supporting a heavy object wobbling about a metre or so to the rear of the end of the chassis places huge bending loads on the chassis which it is not designed to carry. Beef up the end and the loads are transmitted to parts of the frame further forward.

#Front axle load - already so pathetically low in many cases that with front wheel drive you have to fit M+S tyres just to be able to get going on a dry bitumen road.

#Stability. Often overlooked, but heavy loads swinging about outside the wheel base (and very high up as well) on a very long lever - either up and down or sideways - cause major stability issues especially during violent evasive manoeuvrers or on uneven pavement. Motorhomes are already marginally stable without adding to the problem. Some designs with large garages located well behind the rear wheel are just about criminally negligent.

#Towball receivers. Designed to take maybe 100kg or a bit more of downward load which operates without much (vertical) inertia involved, plus the to and fro load imposed by the trailer mass accelerating and decelerating that acts along the length of the chassis. This is in no way even remotely similar to the loads imposed by a 200kg bike sitting on the back bouncing up and down all day, every day.

If any manufacturer of any add-on can supply a guaranteed solution to every one of these issues, then don't fit any add-on.


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## forager

Tony Lee said:


> Several issues with adding heavy stuff to the rear of any vehicle that simple physics and axle loadings just don't take into account -
> 
> #Overhang rule. Maybe not in the UK but some places restrict the overhang - measured from the rearmost axle to the end of the vehicle or the extremity of anything hung on it - to 60%  of the distance between front and rear axles. In practice, given that many motorhomes are right on that limit out of the showroom, not even a bike rack can be added to the rear.
> 
> #Chassis strength. Supporting a heavy object wobbling about a metre or so to the rear of the end of the chassis places huge bending loads on the chassis which it is not designed to carry. Beef up the end and the loads are transmitted to parts of the frame further forward.
> 
> #Front axle load - already so pathetically low in many cases that with front wheel drive you have to fit M+S tyres just to be able to get going on a dry bitumen road.
> 
> #Stability. Often overlooked, but heavy loads swinging about outside the wheel base (and very high up as well) on a very long lever - either up and down or sideways - cause major stability issues especially during violent evasive manoeuvrers or on uneven pavement. Motorhomes are already marginally stable without adding to the problem. Some designs with large garages located well behind the rear wheel are just about criminally negligent.
> 
> #Towball receivers. Designed to take maybe 100kg or a bit more of downward load which operates without much (vertical) inertia involved, plus the to and fro load imposed by the trailer mass accelerating and decelerating that acts along the length of the chassis. This is in no way even remotely similar to the loads imposed by a 200kg bike sitting on the back bouncing up and down all day, every day.
> 
> If any manufacturer of any add-on can supply a guaranteed solution to every one of these issues, then don't fit any add-on.




Thanks Tony, some very interesting points there, what are M+S tyres?


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## Byronic

Tony Lee said:


> Several issues with adding heavy stuff to the rear of any vehicle that simple physics and axle loadings just don't take into account -
> 
> #Overhang rule. Maybe not in the UK but some places restrict the overhang - measured from the rearmost axle to the end of the vehicle or the extremity of anything hung on it - to 60%  of the distance between front and rear axles. In practice, given that many motorhomes are right on that limit out of the showroom, not even a bike rack can be added to the rear.
> 
> #Chassis strength. Supporting a heavy object wobbling about a metre or so to the rear of the end of the chassis places huge bending loads on the chassis which it is not designed to carry. Beef up the end and the loads are transmitted to parts of the frame further forward.
> 
> #Front axle load - already so pathetically low in many cases that with front wheel drive you have to fit M+S tyres just to be able to get going on a dry bitumen road.
> 
> #Stability. Often overlooked, but heavy loads swinging about outside the wheel base (and very high up as well) on a very long lever - either up and down or sideways - cause major stability issues especially during violent evasive manoeuvrers or on uneven pavement. Motorhomes are already marginally stable without adding to the problem. Some designs with large garages located well behind the rear wheel are just about criminally negligent.
> 
> #Towball receivers. Designed to take maybe 100kg or a bit more of downward load which operates without much (vertical) inertia involved, plus the to and fro load imposed by the trailer mass accelerating and decelerating that acts along the length of the chassis. This is in no way even remotely similar to the loads imposed by a 200kg bike sitting on the back bouncing up and down all day, every day.





Whilst I would agree with most of this. I would add that in the real world most motorhomers would only be carrying 100kg scooters, only 3.5% of a loaded vans' mass. Consider that' many vans when used as passenger vehicles often have
4 or 5 seats across the rear wall potentially a +400kg  load behind the back axle, ok not as far back as a racked scooter would be but still imposing at least as high a pendulum effect as a scooter, and imposing possibly even greater bending moments about the rear axle.
As for lightening of the front axle.....a counterweight of c. 60kg at or near the front of the van eg the passenger would cancel out the scooter load.


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## Canalsman

computerrepairs4u said:


> Thanks Tony, some very interesting points there, what are M+S tyres?



Mud and snow tyres ...


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## Smaug

Canalsman said:


> Mud and snow tyres ...



And I thought it was Mark's & Spark's own brand . . . :lol-053:


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## robbie1003

recently bought a sym joyride 200, its 180cc 2004 and a cracking scooter thats well able to do 70mph with two up. bought it to take on back of motorhome either trailer or carrier but its that good i ride it to work everyday. the chap i bought it off lent me his  bike carrier to go to scotland with it, this mounts on towbar with adapter bracket and allso sits on the ball. to be fair it was a nice pice of kit, did well, easy to fit. my van is 1990 talbot autotrail chinook, this van has large overhang and im glad i only borrowed the carrier. anything over 45mph was lets say interesting, way toomutch weight over rear axel causing quite a bit of wandering. i bet i was overloaded on rear axel with just the scooter on the back but we were carrying two kayaks on roofrack and at one point full water tank i hate to think. iam a well traveld driver and use to towing and driveing so it was just a case of being carefull. i know now that a trailer would be best for my van, ok slower max speed on roads but lets face it my van isnt fast anyway.


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## robjk

computerrepairs4u said:


> I intend to, eventually, buy a new motorhome but as it will then be my only transport, I need to carry a motor scooter. I am receiving extremely conflicting advice from van converters and manufacturers like "it will probably be OK" (useless, try telling that to the Police and insurers when you have had an accident). "It cannot be done legally" (probably true in most cases even though you see them about). Towbar manufacturers generally say no too, for example the nose wheel weight on my Renault Trafic LWB is only 85Kg (surprised me) and a scooter and rack is about 140Kg. Does anyone have any "real world technical experience" in this area? My choice of vehicle could be influenced by this. Seems like a full Alko chassis could be good but then if its a large overhang from the wheels it defeats the object. Van conversion looks good but even a new Renault Master is limited to 125 Kg nose weight. (unlikely to find a bike and rack at less than 140Kg)
> Only need a small, compact 2 berth motorhome but as I'm 6'2 I cannot sleep across most vans. (been told the Peugeot boxer may be 150Kg nose weight but not confirmed). Have considered trailers but they are not really practical for me. Not expecting to get many replies on this one!
> 
> If I was any good at woodwork I would probably build my own with a garage and bed over (high roof). I could do the basics but when it comes to the rest like sinks, cupboards, comfy sofa, shower, I would be stuffed.



How about this

TOWING MADE EASY REVERSIBLE TRAILER TECHNOLOGY AT ITS BEST

Looks interesting and less back axle weight !

Rob


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## vwalan

yes ,there are a few going around now saw some on french vans a couple of winters ago. some just have a single wheel. but the twin would be better . the only thing i can say is if you get a puncture might be hard to see or detect it while driving . also i would think the tyres will take a hammering .as they are quite small in diameter. but they do seem to work.


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## Byronic

robjk said:


> How about this
> 
> TOWING MADE EASY REVERSIBLE TRAILER TECHNOLOGY AT ITS BEST
> 
> Looks interesting and less back axle weight !
> 
> Rob



Saw half a dozen swivel wheel trailers over the winter in France/Spain, one was twin wheel the rest single. One Brit reg. the rest French. The French of course have onerous conditions imposed on anything heavier than 3.5 tonnes.
I saw a single wheeled version being reversed and maneuvered, driver didn't seem to have any problem.


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## vwalan

hi yes its quite common in the states to have m,bikes mounted on the front . i know and i,m sure byronic knows of a bus in spain that as a m,bike mounted on the front . his mate used to have a m,bike mounted on the front of his talbot dethleths camper. trouble is some dont have the payload on the front axle . these vehicles very often struggle with standard payloads . a sensible mounted front carrier is possibly ok . lights etc should be left clear or remounted on the platform . but is it worth it . . i say put it on the back on a carrier and take a chance or get a trailer.or get a vehicle that can take one inside .much better ,out of sight out of mind . keeps the bike in a lot better condition as well.


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## vwalan

hi. many with truck conversions lift big heavy ones like your onto platforms high up on the back. but not ideal for a normal m,home . 
thats the idea of the truck route much more forgiving with weight and strength. 
should you be interested in off road campers try Expedition Portal Forum
some nice stuff on here. half we never see here in uk . but gives ideas. 
i wouldnt mind a 4x4 under the trailer but think i could wreck it too fast.


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## Byronic

vwalan said:


> hi yes its quite common in the states to have m,bikes mounted on the front . i know and i,m sure byronic knows of a bus in spain that as a m,bike mounted on the front . his mate used to have a m,bike mounted on the front of his talbot dethleths camper. trouble is some dont have the payload on the front axle . these vehicles very often struggle with standard payloads . a sensible mounted front carrier is possibly ok . lights etc should be left clear or remounted on the platform . but is it worth it . . i say put it on the back on a carrier and take a chance or get a trailer.or get a vehicle that can take one inside .much better ,out of sight out of mind . keeps the bike in a lot better condition as well.



Haven't seen those front mounted bikes for years. Always thought they were illegal at least as far as UK useage "dangerous projections likely to injure pedestrians". Perhaps that's why they're not seen on the road these days. 
In many instances I would think it would be easier to overload the front axle than the rear. For instance my van allows me a 2300Kg rear axle load and only a 500kg front axle load, after gas water belongings are on board, obviously any extra load should be towards the rear. 100Kg on the back could even be of advantage.
Onboard at van rear is my preferred option ie garage as you have but with lower floor. Have occasionally carried m/bike or bikes inside my van just A to B (obstructs just about all the facilities), and floor height 850mm makes for steep ramp into gap narrower than the bike handlebars so the bars have to be lifted over kitchen unit..... a real pain.
Your bike floor is even higher I think, hence the liftable monkey bike?
If I take the m/bike it'll have to be a purpose made rack, not easy I've checked, oh well out with the MIG and attempt the perfect weld!!


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## vwalan

hi .yes i decided mine had to be a monkey or the dax . simple bit of wood acts as a ramp. handlebars fold down .
i get two in a 58inch wide x 33 inch high x 33 inch deep garage . can get three but i boarded off a bit as an internal locker. 
these days with 110cc being readily available and only 699quid new cant go wrong .
LIFAN LF110GY 3 Monkey Bike | eBay
gotta be a good buy. had mine 11yrs now .its only the 90cc but how it gets or used to get me and bob around it deserves a medal. 
if you hadnt seen us be hard to believe . i shall let you describe us two on one bike . hee hee .he as the 110cc now so mine is having a rest. great little bikes though. 
you can get 180cc but they are frightening. believe me .
deiter and joe/dave both had front mounted bikes at one time.


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## sledge

*Bike rack*

This is my version


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## Byronic

Two blokes in a position like that..... would have got you arrested a few years ago! 

The Chinese and Taiwanese manufactured bikes get given a hard time by a lot of bikers sprockets made from cheese, rubber gears that sort of thing. But a lot of Japanese labelled small cheap range bikes are made in China/Taiwan/Brazil, some will then say they are still better made, due to Japanese quality control. TBH I'm not sure myself, but some of the more obscure far east makes don't seem to have extensive parts backup. I dare say you've possibly found otherwise?


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## vwalan

ideal but you do have to have a suitable vehicle to put it on. 
i decided that for a 6 months trip 3 of them in maroc out of suight out of mind is better .plus in a sandstorm plays hell with them outside. 
but great bit of kit .simple to build and cost is negligable .plus number plate high saves a bit of grief. 
i assume you made it ?
but ideal good on you.


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## vwalan

brilliant for spares . 
but dont be put off bmw build engines in china and bikes . mercedes etc . try googling lifan cars and motor bikes . 
in 11yrs other than a couple of speedo cables .and i broke the throttle cable a few years ago .just shortened the outer made a solderless nipple fit . havent used anything . but parts are easy for them . get a full new motor for less than 200quid . 
i have had mine 11yrs so it cant be bad . also have a lifan 250cc .seems ok. 
china is making lots for every body these days . half the cars put together in europe are chinese parts . 
if you have a moment google chinese truck manufacturers .you may be amazed.
and the chinese instantaneous water heaters are spot on. ha ha .


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## Byronic

I know BMW have bikes engines built in the far east, but the point many make is that BMW control the quality standards, whereas obscure relatively unknown manufacturers may or may not have high quality control standards.
When I say unknown I mean as far as the west is concerned. In China they may have a comparable reputation to  BMW or Honda.
The Lifan may be a better product than say Lexmoto or Baotian I don't know. There's certainly a lot of them to pick from.
The Kymco range looked to me quite well made, but that's just a personal opinion based on a quick look over. 
My titchy Yamaha is Chinese manufactured best comprimise I thought, not much more money than Chinese labelled equivalent, just hope the Japs exercised their Q.C. standards!!!


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## vwalan

mine is a jincheng .,brought in and marketed as easy rider. 
i can get bits easily if needed very often have got bits for others from cyril chell in stafford .but i think fluff brown from andover the trials man was part of the importing .they also bring in the ajs of today.
lex arent far away have had bits from them for some bikes for mates etc . plus eat my dirt,in, royston all seem to carry lots of spares . 
i will admit not same quality as honda but then you dont get 2500quid quality for 699 . 
but its life . never thought at one time i would have a portugese built japanese truck till a few years ago. 
cant buy british they died along time ago.


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## Sparks

Post Deleted


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## vwalan

well what can we say .i still have lots of dexion shelving here . maybe i should start marketing it as a bike rack .hee hee.
it was safe i,m sure you tied it with shoe laces for security . 
i once took 3 trike bodies to portugal bungied on my vw camper with a sheldon high top . they sat lovely on the roof . 
another time brought a fibreglass flipfront for a vw beetle back to cornwall from the midlands after a vw show . well it wouldnt fit inside so on the roof .looked lovely .


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## Byronic

Surprised you got away with it then! 
A good alternative use for Dexion shelving angle, didn't know it could be sellotaped to a van to make a m/bike rack support!


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