# Motorhomes and speed cameras



## Oak (Feb 24, 2014)

Just wondered whether anybody has any experience of whether this quote _'The Gatso can differentiate between different speed limits for different vehicles. For example cars, caravans and HGVs have different speed limits and the camera will measure the vehicles length and impose the correct speed limit for each vehicle' _from this link - Gatso speed cameras explained and how they work - is correct? Can they really tell whether a motorhome is over 3,050kg? I can appreciate that they might be able to tell the difference between an HGV and a car but between models of motorhomes?? And by extension, is there any link to the DVLA database to identify weights with the average speed cameras?

cheers
Ian


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## steco1958 (Feb 24, 2014)

Great question !!

As an IT professional, it would certainly be possible for the DVLA database to be referenced via the Gatso or any other system, wether it is the case I am not sure.

Steve


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

Oak said:


> Just wondered whether anybody has any experience of whether this quote _'The Gatso can differentiate between different speed limits for different vehicles. For example cars, caravans and HGVs have different speed limits and the camera will measure the vehicles length and impose the correct speed limit for each vehicle' _from this link - Gatso speed cameras explained and how they work - is correct? Can they really tell whether a motorhome is over 3,050kg? I can appreciate that they might be able to tell the difference between an HGV and a car but between models of motorhomes?? And by extension, is there any link to the DVLA database to identify weights with the average speed cameras?
> 
> cheers
> Ian



hi ian my knowledge of this is commerical vehicles have different speed limits and not just based on wietght, for example a 4x4 pick up a newish hilux max speed on a duel carrige way is 60 not 70 alot of pp esp the owernes of not aware of this till they find out through thier letter box. its because its classed as a commercial vehicle re m homes im not sure so the gatso takes the speed of any vehicle and campers it too its class on the v5


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## steco1958 (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> hi ian my knowledge of this is commerical vehicles have different speed limits and not just based on wietght, for example a 4x4 pick up a newish hilux max speed on a duel carrige way is 60 not 70 alot of pp esp the owernes of not aware of this till they find out through thier letter box. its because its classed as a commercial vehicle re m homes im not sure so the gatso takes the speed of any vehicle and campers it too its class on the v5



check the speed limits on this site, you may be mistaken?

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

steco1958 said:


> check the speed limits on this site, you may be mistaken?
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits



thanks for this info, but i though the hilux was over 2 tonne without stuff in it


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

I think you were right, A Hi Lux is surely over 2 T GVW


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## steco1958 (Feb 24, 2014)

I don't now the car myself, that is why I said "May" be mistaken.


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## QFour (Feb 24, 2014)

Every time I see one I have a nasty habit of hitting the brakes .. Just in case .. :drive:
Only time we got flashed was in London. We were sitting in a traffic jam and it picked the motor cycle up going down the outside. Always wondered if he got a ticket as the camera was on the opposite side of the road. At the end of the M11 there is one where it drops down to 60mph from 70mph it takes thousands on £££ a year.

So how does it work with one of these 


They would have to log the speed and check with the DVLA to find out if it was over the speed limit for said vehicle. So if it's a 50mph zone and you should only be doing 40mph how does it know also if you have a trailer on the back you should only be doing 40mph. They cannot be checking every single car that goes through and don't see how they can work out it's length and then take a picture.

You would have to trip it at the higher speed and then they would check vehicle by reg and just send a bill.


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## Steve121 (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> thanks for this info, but i though the hilux was over 2 tonne without stuff in it



You seem to be assuming the Toyota Hilux is a ‘car-derived’ van. I'm quite sure it doesn't fit that catagory.


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

Steve121 said:


> You seem to be assuming the Toyota Hilux is a ‘car-derived’ van. I'm quite sure it doesn't fit that catagory.



its doesn't its classed as a commerical and its not classed as a multi pupose vehicle as thier are strict requirement in that


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## steco1958 (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> its doesn't its classed as a commerical and its not classed as a multi pupose vehicle as thier are strict requirement in that



Can it not be reclassified on the V5, similar to how motorhomes are, then the speed limits would be changed automatically


My MH was initially HGV, I had it reclassified as a PHGV, and drive accordingly


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

steco1958 said:


> Can it not be reclassified on the V5, similar to how motorhomes are, then the speed limits would be changed automatically
> 
> 
> My MH was initially HGV, I had it reclassified as a PHGV, and drive accordingly



hi steco

if you mean change the class for say a pick up hilux then no as dvla would not re class as its not changed its purpose/ shape /use etc

i have a landrover county 110 1989 and its classed on the v5 as an estate car which is handy for toll roads bridges etc the tip etc that dont have height barriers yet being a landrover i can turn it into most things. a pick up with a demountable camper or as it is now a high roof camper type vehicle. i think also pick ups are commercials for vat advantages and insurance i think.


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

steco1958 said:


> Can it not be reclassified on the V5, similar to how motorhomes are, then the speed limits would be changed automatically
> 
> 
> My MH was initially HGV, I had it reclassified as a PHGV, and drive accordingly




Good point. 
I wonder if putting a demountable MH on the back would allow you to get the vehicle reclassified as a MH.
Strictly speaking I suppose it wont as its not permanent. Who knows.


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## vindiboy (Feb 24, 2014)

The trick is not to get flashed by a camera,they help you with this  by putting up large signs that display the maximum speed on a particular road and also put up signs saying safety cameras in use so it is quite easy really,if you pay attention that is.


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## hextal (Feb 24, 2014)

Guys - another of my many aside, but just FYI 

The HADECs cameras on gantries over managed motorways were originally intended for enforcing reduced speed limits but will now be used for enforcing all speed limits.  From what I understand the triggers are currently set based on ACPO guideline thresholds.  That said, whilst the HA are supplying data on offenders to the police, as far as i'm aware there have not yet been any prosecutions by the police.

There is also now a push to fit HADEC 3 systems (which face sideways and catch all lanes from one box) to gantry legs to do the same.  They've started being installed.


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Good point.
> I wonder if putting a demountable MH on the back would allow you to get the vehicle reclassified as a MH.
> Strictly speaking I suppose it wont as its not permanent. Who knows.



hi mark no its classed as a load i looked into it but saying that if you fix it i.e with anything other than straps like a more permant fixture then i wonder if it can re classed as a m home ive thought about this i.e mark what are expedition trucks classed as ?


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> hi mark no its classed as a load i looked into it but saying that if you fix it i.e with anything other than straps like a more permant fixture then i wonder if it can re classed as a m home ive thought about this i.e mark what are expedition trucks classed as ?



Yes, classing that as a load does make sense, I suppose. I have no idea about expedition trucks, I imagine they'll follow the same rules as the trucks they are based on, many being over 7.5 T. 
I just take the easy way out and keep under 3.5T, lol


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## Harmergeddon (Feb 24, 2014)

steco1958 said:


> My MH was initially HGV, I had it reclassified as a PHGV, and drive accordingly



As was mine but it made no difference to the speed limits. Mine is over the 3050kg limit and as such the lower speed limits still apply. 50mph on a single and 60 mph on the dual.
That said in the last 5 years of motoring i have never recieved a speeding ticket for going through gatso's on the opposite side of the road(facing me) doing 60mph on a single and 70mph on a dual. 
Maybe i have just been lucky but i suspect the gatso's can't tell the difference.


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## steco1958 (Feb 24, 2014)

Harmergeddon said:


> As was mine but it made no difference to the speed limits. Mine is over the 3050kg limit and as such the lower speed limits still apply. 50mph on a single and 60 mph on the dual.
> That said in the last 5 years of motoring i have never recieved a speeding ticket for going through gatso's on the opposite side of the road(facing me) doing 60mph on a single and 70mph on a dual.
> Maybe i have just been lucky but i suspect the gatso's can't tell the difference.



Same here, but it did make a difference with excise duty, over £50 per annum :cool1:


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 24, 2014)

not sure if you have seen this latest update pic mark
progress is going ok with it still trying to find the last leak before i cover the roof sides with galv steel and then when the warmer weathe arives hand paint the whole thing, not sure of colour yet, re the inside i keep adapting things esp now it need to sleep not just myself but my gf and her 6 year old that pic was taken at 6 marches near moggs head nr mablethorpe last week end


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> View attachment 20493
> 
> not sure if you have seen this latest update pic mark
> progress is going ok with it still trying to find the last leak before i cover the roof sides with galv steel and then when the warmer weathe arives hand paint the whole thing, not sure of colour yet, re the inside i keep adapting things esp now it need to sleep not just myself but my gf and her 6 year old that pic was taken at 6 marches near moggs head nr mablethorpe last week end



Looking ready for some fun trips.


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## K9d (Feb 24, 2014)

With mine I'd be happy to be able to break the speed limit. 

The vans I drive for work all have stickers in them showing the limits on various roads, generally its 10mph below the limit for cars.


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## antiquesam (Feb 24, 2014)

I got a ticket once for travelling at 48mph in a 7.5 tonne truck on a single road, when I contacted them they said the vehicle was on DVLA lists as an HGV, so presumably they check reg. numbers on the DVLA computer before issuing a ticket. I seem to remember I didn't get an apology, and if I hadn't been on the ball I would have gained 3 points.


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## donkey too (Feb 24, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> thanks for this info, but i though the hilux was over 2 tonne without stuff in it



My Bongo is over two ton without the stuff in it.


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

Are new MH's over 3.5T required to have a limiter fitted, or are they exempt?


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## grumpyengraver (Feb 24, 2014)

Its  all getting to complicated for me, think I will change my camper for a horse and cart. :camper:


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## Beemer (Feb 24, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Are new MH's over 3.5T required to have a limiter fitted, or are they exempt?



No limiter on mine, and it is 4.5t max.


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## mark61 (Feb 24, 2014)

Beemer said:


> No limiter on mine, and it is 4.5t max.



Think that rule came in 2008, limiters over 3.5t, but don't know if it includes MH's


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## FULL TIMER (Feb 24, 2014)

no need for limiter on private vehicles, mines a 7.5 tonner taxation class PHGV, body type motorcaravan, as it was previously a prison wagon it does have a limiter etc but I was told by VOSA and DVLA  I could do away with it if I wanted as not needed, you could be right about 2008 but  think that only applies to commercial vehicles etc, pretty sure you could order without limiter if vehicle was destined to become a motorcaravan ,


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## Deadsfo (Feb 24, 2014)

I have an app on my phone,it goes direct to GOD FOR HELP, if my 1987 Merc 508 ever reaches 65mph


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## SteveB48 (Feb 24, 2014)

*Misleading description*

That description of how a Gatso works is a bit suspect.
The cameras use basic radar to measure the speed of an approaching vehicle. If the speed is above a pre-set limit, usually a little higher than the limit for that road, then the camera is activated.
The camera takes two pictures at a measured time interval. The road markings allow police to calculate the vehicles actual speed, and then prosecute if the speed is sufficiently high, allowing some tolerance.
The camera has no way of measuring length, or any other vehicle data. The police can get the vehicle's details from DVLA records and apply any specific speed restriction.
But watch out for satellites...


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## Oak (Feb 25, 2014)

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I don't think I've got a definitive answer but didn't really expect to. Obviously I don't plan on racing around but unless I find a definitive answer I'll do my best to stick to the weight restriction speed limits on faster roads but keep in mind that I'd probably be ok if occasionally I forget that I'm in a heavier vehicle. A motor home without a licence isn't much good!

cheers
Ian


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## steco1958 (Feb 25, 2014)

Oak said:


> Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I don't think I've got a definitive answer but didn't really expect to. Obviously I don't plan on racing around but unless I find a definitive answer I'll do my best to stick to the weight restriction speed limits on faster roads but keep in mind that I'd probably be ok if occasionally I forget that I'm in a heavier vehicle. A motor home without a licence isn't much good!
> 
> cheers
> Ian



Ian, as you say stay within the speed limits, after all it is our responsibility as drivers to know the limits !!


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## trevskoda (Feb 25, 2014)

landyrubbertramp said:


> View attachment 20493
> 
> not sure if you have seen this latest update pic mark
> progress is going ok with it still trying to find the last leak before i cover the roof sides with galv steel and then when the warmer weathe arives hand paint the whole thing, not sure of colour yet, re the inside i keep adapting things esp now it need to sleep not just myself but my gf and her 6 year old that pic was taken at 6 marches near moggs head nr mablethorpe last week end



just a we pointer,you must use mordant wash on galvo before painting,its like a light blue ink which turnes the galvo dark blue if done right,some times i give galvo a wash with thinners before i do this,helps.


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks to Hexstal for the info re: HADEC 3.  Similar to some French cameras then ?.


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## landyrubbertramp (Feb 25, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> just a we pointer,you must use mordant wash on galvo before painting,its like a light blue ink which turnes the galvo dark blue if done right,some times i give galvo a wash with thinners before i do this,helps.



thanks for the heads up


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## vespalien (Feb 25, 2014)

antiquesam said:


> I got a ticket once for travelling at 48mph in a 7.5 tonne truck on a single road, when I contacted them they said the vehicle was on DVLA lists as an HGV, so presumably they check reg. numbers on the DVLA computer before issuing a ticket. I seem to remember I didn't get an apology, and if I hadn't been on the ball I would have gained 3 points.



The average speed cameras use your reg no to identify the vehicle at each check point, so it is a simple matter for them to check vehicle type from the DVLA database and hence apply the relevant speed limit. All done in software with virtually no extra cost for the inquiry & an almost instant response. Tickets are auto printed & posted too. It's money for old rope if you don't slow down for cameras.


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## dydigital (Feb 25, 2014)

Some speed camera are linked to the DVLA database and can issue fines if vehicle is travelling faster than is should but still within that roads speed limit. they are limited in numbers. this is for heavy goods vehicles only (anything tachographed). its not intelligent enough to work out if your towing and a train weight is to high, it cant tell if your overweight, really its based on the V5 info.


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## Deleted member 967 (Feb 26, 2014)

Regarding Weight.

As a result of FOI requests to ALL UK parking providers, the majority of car parks have a 2 ton weight limit on them according to the TROs.  This is irrespective of the surface material.  Some are as low as 1.5 ton and a small percentage are 3050kg.   

The only unrestricted ones are Lorry and Coach parking and some authorities ban motorhomes from these areas.

Some authorities will ticket motorhomes as overweight vehicles, but not ticket other types of vehicle on these car parks.   So it is not just speed you have to watch out for, but also the small print.


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## sasquatch (Feb 26, 2014)

I was done 5 years ago on a dual carriageway in Wiltshire in my AutoTrail which weighed in at 4500Kg. I was doing 65 on a national speed limit road. When they sent me the letter and picture,I appealed and the reply was that I had exceeded the speed limit for my weight of vehicle. I further appealed that it was a private leisure vehicle NOT a commercial HGV,it was dismissed on the basis that the issue was the vehicle weight.


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## iveco4x4 (Feb 26, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Yes, classing that as a load does make sense, I suppose. I have no idea about expedition trucks, I imagine they'll follow the same rules as the trucks they are based on, many being over 7.5 T.
> I just take the easy way out and keep under 3.5T, lol



Expedition trucks can be classed as motor caravans if they meet the requirements. So they are private hgv motor caravans

Otherwise they are private hgv wwith an appropriate body type

Rich


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## cornishlad (Feb 27, 2014)

*about GATSO cameras only*

I "believe" that Gatso cameras are not very smart and flash you if they reckon you MAY be speeding. They are not connected digitally to anything and use wet film which has to be changed when it runs out. It does measure the length of a vehicle to determine which category it MIGHT be. 
The film is inspected visually by an operator who will see if the length measurement is meaningful, but presumably can make his own decision about the vehicle type he's looking at perhaps by a reg check at the DVLC. 
For a successful prosecution the speed measured by the radar and the speed measured by the on-road ruler  must be within 10% of each other due to the known variables of the radar checker. Or so it says on a speed checker website.


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## Captain Biggles (Mar 12, 2014)

Oak said:


> Just wondered whether anybody has any experience of whether this quote _'The Gatso can differentiate between different speed limits for different vehicles. For example cars, caravans and HGVs have different speed limits and the camera will measure the vehicles length and impose the correct speed limit for each vehicle' _from this link - Gatso speed cameras explained and how they work - is correct? Can they really tell whether a motorhome is over 3,050kg? I can appreciate that they might be able to tell the difference between an HGV and a car but between models of motorhomes?? And by extension, is there any link to the DVLA database to identify weights with the average speed cameras?
> 
> cheers
> Ian




As of ~4 years ago, there were to my knowledge 3 such 'Weigh in motion' installations on UK roads with the offer of more being rolled-out, you might want to take a look at this Web Site : 

High Speed Weigh In Motion | Solutions | TDC Traffic Systems 

And no, I have nothing to do with the Company TDC....


Captain Biggles   lane:


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## steco1958 (Mar 12, 2014)

sasquatch said:


> I was done 5 years ago on a dual carriageway in Wiltshire in my AutoTrail which weighed in at 4500Kg. I was doing 65 on a national speed limit road. When they sent me the letter and picture,I appealed and the reply was that I had exceeded the speed limit for my weight of vehicle. I further appealed that it was a private leisure vehicle NOT a commercial HGV,it was dismissed on the basis that the issue was the vehicle weight.



You should have been fined !! the speed on a DC for your vehicle is 60mph


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## sasquatch (Mar 12, 2014)

steco1958 said:


> You should have been fined !! the speed on a DC for your vehicle is 60mph



Does that also mean that GATSOs ignore ACPO guidelines.
So there are private leisure vehicles and leisure vehicles. Unfortunately there are a lot of anomalys around vehicles whether it is for tolls or traffic pffences


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## maxi77 (Mar 12, 2014)

cornishlad said:


> I "believe" that Gatso cameras are not very smart and flash you if they reckon you MAY be speeding. They are not connected digitally to anything and use wet film which has to be changed when it runs out. It does measure the length of a vehicle to determine which category it MIGHT be.
> The film is inspected visually by an operator who will see if the length measurement is meaningful, but presumably can make his own decision about the vehicle type he's looking at perhaps by a reg check at the DVLC.
> For a successful prosecution the speed measured by the radar and the speed measured by the on-road ruler  must be within 10% of each other due to the known variables of the radar checker. Or so it says on a speed checker website.



The original GATSOs were wet film but they have been updating them over the years, many are now for example multi purpose and can do both lights and speed. I would suspect the latest models are all electronic with solid state memory and it would be very simple to have them down load their imagery and data over the phone network. Auto matching the registration with the DVLA should be very easy so it would be lest costly perhaps to assume they can make the link and keep to your proper limit


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## philstoke (Jun 25, 2014)

Woops just noticed this in a magazine I was reading
I got my motorhome last years and while looking up speed limits at the time misread the weight as lower speed limits for 3.5 tonnes and under rather than the 3.05 tonnes that is actually quoted.
I have been through quite a few speed cameras and havn't received a ticket though and especially on the motorways you see other larger motorhomes cruising along at 70mph
I wonder why the threshold for other things is 3.50 tonnes, such as the London emmision zone for example but the speed limits are 3.05 tonnes


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## st3v3 (Jun 25, 2014)

vindiboy said:


> The trick is not to get flashed by a camera,they help you with this  by putting up large signs that display the maximum speed on a particular road and also put up signs saying safety cameras in use so it is quite easy really,if you pay attention that is.



The signs they put up are the maximum speed for cars. NOT necessarily the vehicles we drive.

Sarcasm fail.

I'm more confused with the converted Sprinter we have. As a van it would be 60mph on dual carriageway, but it would fit the motorhome section at 70mph.

v5 says motor caravan.


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## mark61 (Jun 25, 2014)

st3v3 said:


> The signs they put up are the maximum speed for cars. NOT necessarily the vehicles we drive.
> 
> Sarcasm fail.
> 
> ...



Why confused?


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## vwalan (Jun 25, 2014)

this is why a couple of years back there was the fuss about self builds requiring stripes or decals on the outside etc to make them look like m,homes . it wasnt for the cameras but for the police to make visual decisions.
as it all m,homes are goods vehicles . 
they carry your goods , be it not for sale or hire .


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## st3v3 (Jun 25, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Why confused?



I was confused because I read just the motorhomes bit - which mine isn't. Of course it also says motor caravan, so I'm good for car speeds everywhere. :king:

Thanks for making me read it again lol.


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## portiapug (Jun 25, 2014)

Captain Biggles said:


> As of ~4 years ago, there were to my knowledge 3 such 'Weigh in motion' installations on UK roads with the offer of more being rolled-out, you might want to take a look at this Web Site :
> 
> High Speed Weigh In Motion | Solutions | TDC Traffic Systems
> 
> ...



I know of one motorhome owner who got a speeding fine while on the A1 in Northumberland.

It had to be by one of these 'weigh in motion' devices.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jun 26, 2014)

I have this info direct from DVLA.

Total Number of Motorhome/caravans registered in UK
Information supplied by VEHICLES.STATS@dft.gsi.gov.uk

Motor Caravan *registered* in UK at 31st March 2014 :- *232,527 *of which 37,634 or 16.18% were under SORN.  

Interestingly only 9,866 are category M1 passenger vehicles :-  18,344 are N1 or goods vehicles under 7500kg and 179 are N2 goods vehicles over 7500kg :-  1,884 are classes as “Other” and 202.254 are classed as “Missing”?

It could be that if a vehicles is category M1 (SP) (Passenger vehicle) it is covered by the car limit but if Goods M1 or M2 it would be restricted to those limits.  How the "Missing" and "Others" are classified is unknown.

It was mandatory (EU) that Motor Caravans are M1 (Special Purpose) Passenger vehicles by 29th April 2012 but DVLA does not seem to have caught up with this yet.  The EU mandatory exercise must be completed by October 2014.


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## rugbyreddragon (Jun 26, 2014)

On a speed awareness course I had pleasure to attend, I was advised that they had weight sensors in the Road to establish the weight and hence the limit for a particular vehicle. Not sure if true or just propaganda but if different limits appropriate where a camera is, how otherwise would it know wether to flash or not?


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## mark61 (Jun 26, 2014)

I hope these sensors take in to account that mass increases with speed.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jun 26, 2014)

Sorry it is http://bit.ly/1bSErW2  However the published information does not include Motor Caravans and the information has to be requested by email.

Quote  "We publish data on a quarterly basis. Each update is published on the 2nd Thursday of the third month after the end of the quarter. The next quarter which is 2014 q2 will be published on September 11th.

Whenever, you require an update send an email to this address and will be produce it for you."


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## Derby Donkey (Jun 26, 2014)

Because if they set the speed trigger at 45 to catch HGVs they would soon run out of film with all the cars doing over 45.
The majority of gatsos still use film,  and they can and do flash lorries at far lower speeds than they do with cars. 
 Have been vainly googling for years as to HOW they do so,  but they certainly do!


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## clarkpeacock (Jun 26, 2014)

Derby Donkey said:


> Because if they set the speed trigger at 45 to catch HGVs they would soon run out of film with all the cars doing over 45.
> The majority of gatsos still use film,  and they can and do flash lorries at far lower speeds than they do with cars.
> Have been vainly googling for years as to HOW they do so,  but they certainly do!



I believe they have a loop in the road approaching the camera to detect vehicle size.  Some years back, I got flashed by one in the West Mids in my 8M camper doing about 50 in a 60 but heard nothing.  More recently, doing 46 in a 60 driving an artic along the A40 near Cassington, Oxford bought me a lovely letter from the local constabulary, £90 fine and 3 points SP10 on my licence.  Didn't see the camera flash but it definitely dropped the threshold for the larger vehicle.  Regularly pass the same camera in the car at 60.


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