# not charging starter battery and idle too fast



## Harrytherid (Nov 9, 2022)

Start engine and all OK for two seconds then gradually idle speed increases until 1200to1500rpm after about 5 seconds.
After about five to eight seconds the battery warning light comes on and battery showing 11.8 volts with the engine going or stopped.  Any idea what is wrong? Vehicle 2007 Ducato 130 multijet LHD.  Not the alternator, I hope.  If so how to fix.


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## yeoblade (Nov 9, 2022)

Ditto, got exactly the same on mine, same engine. I blip the throttle when I start it to about 2k RPM and all's OK.
 Always wondered why the alternator doesn't kick in, I assume when the ECU doesn't see the alternator charge it increases RPM to get it to charge. 
I did speak to a mechanic once about it and he said he'd seen it before, probababy alternator fault.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 9, 2022)

Thanks yeoblade.  Not tried that.  That's for tomorrow now though.


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## kensowerby (Nov 9, 2022)

Same problem, changed the alternator, problem solved
Pratted about and tried the easy route ie earth connections, battery connections etc. just because they were easy to get to, should have checked the alternator first  
Must be getting old, any thing for an easy life


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## trevskoda (Nov 10, 2022)

Alt fooked, change it.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 10, 2022)

Thanks Ken and Trev.  Blip to 2000 then 3000 did not work in fact Battery warning stayed off until 2000 so must be the alternator. Yes I tried  the easy route ie: earth connections, battery connections etc. even bought cheap OBD2 mschine but no help so better get mechanic in, I suppose. unless it is fairly easy to do?


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## AllanD (Nov 10, 2022)

By checking the earth connection did you check the battery earth to the chassis under the passenger footwell floor panel as well as the engine to the chassis?


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## Harrytherid (Nov 11, 2022)

Yes Alan I did check and scraped clean the battery earth even though there was nothing on it but where is the engine to chassis earth?  It is surprising how little info there is on the Ducato on the web.  When I went looking I failed to find the alternator even.  Maybe it is under that great big plastic moulding under the wheel arch?


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## AllanD (Nov 11, 2022)

I don't know exactly on yours but think it will be secured between the gearbox (righthand side as looking under the bonnet) and engine bay chassis lower down near the air filter housing.


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## witzend (Nov 11, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> It is surprising how little info there is on the Ducato on the web.  When I went looking I failed to find the alternator even.  Maybe it is under that great big plastic moulding under the wheel arch?


If You look down the left hand side of engine you'll see 2 drive belts one has the alternator on the end of it. the earth strap is right hand side behind the bottom of the airfilter about 6" long spoken about a lot changed even more


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## Harrytherid (Nov 12, 2022)

Thanks Alan and witzend.  I am off to an opticians appointment in a few minutes so will look on my return. From memory, there is a lot of stuff obstructing the view that side which is probably why I have not clocked it before. BTW where in Cornwall are you, witzend, (I imagine that's what the flag means) I am in Bodmin, just near to Morrisons and what does "spoken about a lot changed even more" mean and why would it be forbidden to forbid?  Bit of an oxymoron, that. cheers, Harry


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## yeoblade (Nov 12, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Alan and witzend.  I am off to an opticians appointment in a few minutes so will look on my return. From memory, there is a lot of stuff obstructing the view that side which is probably why I have not clocked it before. BTW where in Cornwall are you, witzend, (I imagine that's what the flag means) I am in Bodmin, just near to Morrisons and what does "spoken about a lot changed even more" mean and why would it be forbidden to forbid?  Bit of an oxymoron, that. cheers, Harry


I looked at a youtube  vid of changing it, as mine still works OK albeit after a blip of he throttle, noticed it a few years ago, I'll not be doing it, yet, and if it has to be done I personally won't DIY. looks a bugger to do.
After your opticians visit with your new eyes 'twill be easy to see!


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## SimonM (Nov 12, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Alan and witzend.  I am off to an opticians appointment in a few minutes so will look on my return. From memory, there is a lot of stuff obstructing the view that side which is probably why I have not clocked it before. BTW where in Cornwall are you, witzend, (I imagine that's what the flag means) I am in Bodmin, just near to Morrisons and what does "spoken about a lot changed even more" mean and why would it be forbidden to forbid?  Bit of an oxymoron, that. cheers, Harry


I think a partial answer to your question is regarding the *earth straps *Fiat are renowned for needing a good *earth* and it often compromises starting and charging. So double check them, the area beneath where they are bolted down, clean and if necessary replace with better quality ones.


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## Wrightpm (Nov 12, 2022)

Sounds like alternator is gubbed. But good earths solve loads of associated electrical issues so great advice the check these. Rather than replace an earth why not just add another one from a suitable engine bolt to chassis. Normally if a alternator is not working the charge light does not go out right from the starting up it stays on right from the first crank - not off then on...just on all the time. I can only assume if the red light comes on after a while after starting that you may have a "smart" one.
Just a wee thought you will get a few engine starts out of a well charged battery before it dies so charge it up before you drive to the garage and hopefully you won't get stranded. please share the outcome, good luck. Peter


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## Harrytherid (Nov 12, 2022)

Thanks all again, So far I have failed to locate that pesky earth strap although I have finally spotted the alternator. I have considered the bolt on the engine to the chassis route myself.   I will get that sorted before I make any other decisions.  The battery earth strap I have scraped the surround of and generally cleaned up before bolting it back tight.  I shall buy a decent earth strap from my local auto factors once I have determined the length from engine bolt (or maybe gearbox?) to new earth lug. The jump starting ground stud is pretty useless so I have made up a 3mm thick copper lug which I have bolted to the chassis.  Successful, works a treat.  Battery holding 13.1 V now.  From charger, not alternator.  I have excellent lithium jump starter so no stranding problem if I stop.


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## mistericeman (Nov 12, 2022)

If you want to rule the earth straps out ...

Use a jump lead from battery earth to a decent lump of earth on the engine .

How's your battery for health ....I've come across all sorts of odd behaviour charging wise when the alternator (especially modern ones)is trying to compensate for a failing battery .


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## trevskoda (Nov 12, 2022)

Your charger should top off at 14.4v before going to a float of about 13.4v to 13.7v, after an hr or so with no charging it should settle to about 12.7v.


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## witzend (Nov 12, 2022)

https://www.WEBSITE BLOCKED BY ADMIN/earth-strap-problems.phpheres a alterative. well I though it was


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## yeoblade (Nov 13, 2022)

https://www.WEBSITE BLOCKED BY ADMIN/earth-strap-problems.php
aandncaravanservices  have details on their website


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## Wrightpm (Nov 13, 2022)

Just a thought ... faster than usual idle is probably cos alternator is not charging so not loading the engine at all so may see slight increase in rpm? Again points to alternator I think.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 13, 2022)

mistericeman said:


> If you want to rule the earth straps out ...
> 
> Use a jump lead from battery earth to a decent lump of earth on the engine .
> 
> How's your battery for health ....I've come across all sorts of odd behaviour charging wise when the alternator (especially modern ones)is trying to compensate for a failing battery .


Thanks, must try that mistericeman and maybe a temporary earth (jump lead) from the battery to the nice new lug I have fitted and the engine to that lug also Jump lead.  I'll get there in the end.  Click Mechanic want £303 inclusive, to put new alternator on.  I could do without the expense with xmas coming.


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## mistericeman (Nov 13, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks, must try that mistericeman and maybe a temporary earth (jump lead) from the battery to the nice new lug I have fitted and the engine to that lug also Jump lead.  I'll get there in the end.  Click Mechanic want £303 inclusive, to put new alternator on.  I could do without the expense with xmas coming.


What state is your battery in ?

Try fully charging it with a decent smart charger or a known good battery ....


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## Harrytherid (Nov 14, 2022)

Whoopee.  Tried the jump lead test and it worked.  I cant find whose idea that was but thanks. New earth strap will be obtained and fitted and all should be OK.  Mind you only 12.6volts on the cigarette lighter but tick over perfect and no battery warning light.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 14, 2022)

Now I tried the jury rigged ground cable and the revs now as wanted with or without that cable. However when revs go up to 2000+ battery light comes on and stays on at all revs. Neighbour/Pal of mine thinks might be slipping belt to alternator, any thoughts?


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## trevskoda (Nov 14, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Now I tried the jury rigged ground cable and the revs now as wanted with or without that cable. However when revs go up to 2000+ battery light comes on and stays on at all revs. Neighbour/Pal of mine thinks might be slipping belt to alternator, any thoughts?


If the batts are low the belt may slip, but you will hear it and it may break, charge voltage should be 14.4 when running, 12.7 tells me no charge from alt.


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## yeoblade (Nov 14, 2022)

yeoblade said:


> I looked at a youtube  vid of changing it, as mine still works OK albeit after a blip of he throttle, noticed it a few years ago, I'll not be doing it, yet, and if it has to be done I personally won't DIY. looks a bugger to do.
> After your opticians visit with your new eyes 'twill be easy to see!


Oh sh1t, went to go out this morning in it and blipping the throttle to 2K RPM didn't work. The engine batt. light came on, wont charge, stays at around 12.6v. @Harrytherid voltage must rise to 14.4v for the alt. to be good.
  Mechanic coming around later this week to fit new alternator.
I have recently fitted a 30Amp B2B so maybe that was the last straw for the alternator.


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## oldpatchwork (Nov 14, 2022)

have a look at the offside cog it might use the other side of the gear? if you see what i mean
Patrick Doh!!! answered the wrong thread !!


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## Harrytherid (Nov 14, 2022)

My mate came over and told me he had been consulting the "Oracle" and that reckons the belt the favourite. If dry tomorrow I shall get up on ramps ,remove stone guard and see how that belt is doing.  Probably lost some elasticity over the years


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## witzend (Nov 14, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> My mate came over and told me he had been consulting the "Oracle" and that reckons the belt the favourite. If dry tomorrow I shall get up on ramps ,remove stone guard and see how that belt is doing.  Probably lost some elasticity over the years


Very likely a stretch belt with no adjustment


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## yeoblade (Nov 17, 2022)

Did you get the alt replaced? Had mine done today , bought alternator from Coastal Motorhomes  and local mechanic fitted it, what a barsteward, it unbolts *but* no space to get it out, had to unbolt exhaust/cat and unbolt engine mount to jack engine up to get the space, 4hrs. work.
If you can get ClickMechanic to do it all in for £300 I'd bite his arm off! Especially if they can fit a motorhome on their ramp
Back up to 14.4v charge and B2B working.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 18, 2022)

When I was last under there I observed that there are two idler wheels on the relevant belt but no space to do anything. No; click mechanic would be ripping off their operative if I went to them and I am not in that business.  I went to a local garage with a big lift and we looked at the alternator on that. Nice guy, there, got the make and number but the two factors he tried could not provide a new one (personal import so the registration No. does not help) and they offered a refurb with a 36 month warranty which was accepted and the whole job will cost a max of £330 inclusive.  Going to be done next Thursday.  Will be less if the thing comes out more easily than it looks.  He recons a max of three hours but from what you say maybe not.  Click mechanic would do it on my drive,  I think not.


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## yeoblade (Nov 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> When I was last under there I observed that there are two idler wheels on the relevant belt but no space to do anything. No; click mechanic would be ripping off their operative if I went to them and I am not in that business.  I went to a local garage with a big lift and we looked at the alternator on that. Nice guy, there, got the make and number but the two factors he tried could not provide a new one (personal import so the registration No. does not help) and they offered a refurb with a 36 month warranty which was accepted and the whole job will cost a max of £330 inclusive.  Going to be done next Thursday.  Will be less if the thing comes out more easily than it looks.  He recons a max of three hours but from what you say maybe not.  Click mechanic would do it on my drive,  I think not.


That's good, let us know how it goes, my mechanic couldn't get it on his lift so had to do it using jacks. The alternators for mine 2011 2.3l Fiat X250 are basically the same but available with different current outputs, either 110, 140, 150, 180amps.  Mine was marked Bosch 110A  but I've replaced it with a 140A one as I've a B2B charger fitted. 
I we hadn't have been gassing so much would probably taken 3 hrs. to do.


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## trevskoda (Nov 18, 2022)

I have a double belt pully so could fit an extra alt or a 230v one if I wanted.


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## yeoblade (Nov 18, 2022)

trevskoda said:


> I have a double belt pully so could fit an extra alt or a 230v one if I wanted.


Ooops mis-read that that you said Double belt belly


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## Harrytherid (Nov 18, 2022)

Right, yeo[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]blade[/COLOR], due to be done Thursday morning and it is a also a Bosch 140A if I remember correctly.  I can hardly wait to have my wagon back fully functional, then we shall go up to Daughter's place in Leicester when we get a reasonable weather forecast.  Where would one put an extra alternator? Trev, there is no room on mine.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 18, 2022)

What is all that colour rubbish that has appeared, I wonder.


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## yeoblade (Nov 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Right, yeo[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]blade[/COLOR], due to be done Thursday morning and it is a also a Bosch 140A if I remember correctly.  I can hardly wait to have my wagon back fully functional, then we shall go up to Daughter's place in Leicester when we get a reasonable weather forecast.  Where would one put an extra alternator? Trev, there is no room on mine.


Think Trev has got a N S engine RWD Iveco setup, totally different layout, hardly room for one Alternator in our FWD Ducatos


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## Harrytherid (Nov 19, 2022)

Yes I recon yeo


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## trevskoda (Nov 19, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Right, yeo[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]blade[/COLOR], due to be done Thursday morning and it is a also a Bosch 140A if I remember correctly.  I can hardly wait to have my wagon back fully functional, then we shall go up to Daughter's place in Leicester when we get a reasonable weather forecast.  Where would one put an extra alternator? Trev, there is no room on mine.


Yes some room, thes as many vans had a 230v alt fitted for ice cream use/vans, army use etc.


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## yeoblade (Nov 25, 2022)

How'd it go with the new alt Harry?


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## Harrytherid (Nov 25, 2022)

Unfortunately mechanic called in sick so it is re-scheduled to the following Friday.  I will keep you posted.


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Unfortunately mechanic called in sick so it is re-scheduled to the following Friday.  I will keep you posted.


Prob heard it was one of those wildcamping old narks so he phoned in.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 26, 2022)

What is a NARK?


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## trevskoda (Nov 26, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> What is a NARK?


Someone who keeps on talking about the same thing or anything which drives you bonkers, wives fall into this bracket, sometimes.


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## Harrytherid (Nov 26, 2022)

Sometimes?


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## Robmac (Nov 26, 2022)

trevskoda said:


> Someone who keeps on talking about the same thing or anything which drives you bonkers, wives fall into this bracket, sometimes.



Like Linux Trev?   

(sorry!)


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## Harrytherid (Nov 26, 2022)

What is wrong with Linux, then Rob?


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## Robmac (Nov 26, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> What is wrong with Linux, then Rob?



Never used it H so I don't know. But Trev does mention it a lot.   

Bit like me with Chickens really!


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## Tezza33 (Nov 28, 2022)

Mention Linux or Windows and there is an alarm going off in Trevs house pm


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## Harrytherid (Dec 2, 2022)

Alternator replaced with Bosch to match, they had very difficult job but charged me just the quoted price of £334 inclusive.  Found crankshaft pulley broken, took photo and will give me price to replace,  Don't know who broke it but rust on it indicates it has been done for a while. Possibly Halfords when replacing timing belt just over a year ago. I don't suppose I shall ever know.  At least these people seem to be dead honest and have a big enough hoist, a rarity hereabouts.


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## trevskoda (Dec 2, 2022)

Robmac said:


> Never used it H so I don't know. But Trev does mention it a lot.
> 
> Bit like me with Chickens really!


If you have an old 64 bit pc then have a we go and try rob, nothing to lose.


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## yeoblade (Dec 2, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Alternator replaced with Bosch to match, they had very difficult job but charged me just the quoted price of £334 inclusive.  Found crankshaft pulley broken, took photo and will give me price to replace,  Don't know who broke it but rust on it indicates it has been done for a while. Possibly Halfords when replacing timing belt just over a year ago. I don't suppose I shall ever know.  At least these people seem to be dead honest and have a big enough hoist, a rarity hereabouts.


That's a good price .  I paid £136 alt and £125 to fit, so £261 , but I did source the part myself. 

That's a bit worrying the pulley is broken, but if it's been OK for a year then can't be too big an issue


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## Harrytherid (Dec 2, 2022)

No it is just the outer face flange broken so it will possibly shred belt eventually but not too soon I hope.  Garage will advise when he gets the price for the pulley.


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## witzend (Dec 2, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> No it is just the outer face flange broken so it will possibly shred belt eventually but not too soon I hope.


If at all its probaly been ok for some time I'd just keep a eye on it for a while before commiting to changing it. If You do end up having it changed you'll need a new belt so you could get a new one and keep it in case you need it before


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## Harrytherid (Dec 3, 2022)

Thanks for the advice, Witzend (It would be nice to have an actual name to reply to.) Yes I shall do just that unless the garage advises otherwise.  He has been very good so far so I feel I can trust him.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 5, 2022)

Went for a 20mile drive yesterday and wife, with hearing like a bat or an owl, said all seemed much quieter.  With my ears I would not be able to tell so I defer to her on that score.


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## trevskoda (Dec 5, 2022)

Fit 2 volt meters on the dash so you can see if les and starter batts are getting the volts.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 5, 2022)

I have lighter socket plugs with volt meters as part of them thanks and I am getting 14.5V so I am quite happy thanks Trev.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 16, 2022)

A serious snag has shown up.  We have just got back from a trip to Leicester and the heating etc worked beautifully though the temperature was seriously low until... Things began to play up after 4 days when the boiler control started to show a fault and the heat was intermittent,  Seems the battery was flat so I ran the engine thinking that the solar panel was struggling with the low sun.  There was no difference so we decide to cut the visit short and come home reckoning that the battery would charge on the way.  It did not; we had no lights, pump or anything on the way back so we had to come all the way home in one hit which we do not like to do. When home plugged in the EHU and everything worked perfectly. Got on to the guys who did the job and was unable to speak to the boss but the underling seemed to think that that was as it should be OK but  booked it in to be looked at in early January.  If they argue I shall get on to Trading Standards unless anyone has any better ideas.  I recon that missed the fact that there were two outputs to be served.


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## yeoblade (Dec 16, 2022)

Do you still get 14.5v on your lighter socket voltmeter? when driving. Where the vehicle lights OK?

 If so then the job they did was probably OK, unless a connection has worked loose. The split charger may be at fault, or B2B charger if you have one.


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## trevskoda (Dec 16, 2022)

95% of so called repair garages have not one clue how things work, also I find it much better to have sep units rather than sargent or others trying to be good at all things, mine is all single units for each job, so if one goes down I am still able to fly home on one engine LOL.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 16, 2022)

Thanks Yeo, 14.7 on that voltmeter last time I looked so maybe it is the split charger.  Was it that all along or could both have been faulty.  Of course they could. Vehicle lights seemed to be fine, I am thinking of changing them for LEDs as they are nowhere near as bright as those on the car, which is much newer.  Where would the split charger be likely to be as maybe I could check and, if need be, change that myself.  There is no B2B charger that I am aware of.  Harry


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## Harrytherid (Dec 16, 2022)

trevskoda said:


> 95% of so called repair garages have not one clue how things work, also I find it much better to have sep units rather than sargent or others trying to be good at all things, mine is all single units for each job, so if one goes down I am still able to fly home on one engine LOL.


Basically so is mine ever since that major short out.  the original control panel is not used.


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## mistericeman (Dec 16, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Yeo, 14.7 on that voltmeter last time I looked so maybe it is the split charger.  Was it that all along or could both have been faulty.  Of course they could. Vehicle lights seemed to be fine, I am thinking of changing them for LEDs as they are nowhere near as bright as those on the car, which is much newer.  Where would the split charger be likely to be as maybe I could check and, if need be, change that myself.  There is no B2B charger that I am aware of.  Harry


Beware of changing your headlights to LEDs if that's what you were meaning ...
As swapping standard incandescent Lamps (bulbs grow in the ground)for LED units should mean a MOT fail on most more modern vehicles .

As far as charging leisure batteries are concerned ...
Sounds like it's time to break out the multi meter


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## Harrytherid (Dec 17, 2022)

mistericeman said:


> Beware of changing your headlights to LEDs if that's what you were meaning ...
> As swapping standard incandescent Lamps (bulbs grow in the ground)for LED units should mean a MOT fail on most more modern vehicles .
> 
> As far as charging leisure batteries are concerned ...
> Sounds like it's time to break out the multi meter


Yes but where is that pesky split charge relay.  I don't even know what one looks like!


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## yeoblade (Dec 17, 2022)

Sorry l don't know on your van


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## mistericeman (Dec 17, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Yes but where is that pesky split charge relay.  I don't even know what one looks like!


If it's a pro built conversion ....
I'd start googling

If its a self build it could be anywhere ...between the leisure batteries and the starter battery .


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## Harrytherid (Dec 17, 2022)

I am pretty sure I now know where it is but there are several similar in that box and I don't know which one nor how to find out which one ( I am told it is in the fuse box in the engine compartment and I know where that is but those that think that don't know which one).  Any ideas?  I have been googling and that has elicited the foregoing.  I even have a picture of the box but no labels on the relays only the fuses. Harry.  I am going to look in that box now,  don woollies etc.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 17, 2022)

Opened the box and one of the relays is rather bigger than the rest though on the diagram they are all the same and it has the inscription 12v 50 A on it so I presume that is it. There is no evidence of overheating on it. Now I have meter at the ready, so how do I find out if it is OK?


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## trevskoda (Dec 17, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Opened the box and one of the relays is rather bigger than the rest though on the diagram they are all the same and it has the inscription 12v 50 A on it so I presume that is it. There is no evidence of overheating on it. Now I have meter at the ready, so how do I find out if it is OK?


Use a 200ah relay and battery cable to link up, you can also use a switch to start van of all batts in an emergency, or manual link, thats how mine is done


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## Harrytherid (Dec 17, 2022)

My memory is not good enough for that Trev but it seems there are several about in the 50A range which is what the original is.  So I shall try for one of those thanks but I would like to test the original to exclude any other possibilities before I make another move.  Got to to take Mrs H for x-ray on knee now (not a driver) but I will be back onto this later.


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## Nabsim (Dec 18, 2022)

The split charge relay should be fused at both the starter battery and leisure battery bank ends. My original had piggy back fuse blocks each end each containing a 50A and 2A fuse. Check/replace those fuses first as they seem to go more often than the relay do


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

_The split charge relay should be fused at both the starter battery and leisure battery bank ends. My original had piggy back fuse blocks each end each containing a 50A and 2A fuse. Check/replace those fuses first as they seem to go more often than the relay do_
Good idea Nabism I have looked at the fuse list but none of them seem to be probable's for that but I will check them when the rain lets up.  In fact just about every heavy fuse is about to be checked.  In my experience; relays tend to look a little dodgy when they burn out or whatever.  This one looks and sounds (when shaken) pristine (on the table beside me) so I am hopeful you are right about the fuse.


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## trevskoda (Dec 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> _The split charge relay should be fused at both the starter battery and leisure battery bank ends. My original had piggy back fuse blocks each end each containing a 50A and 2A fuse. Check/replace those fuses first as they seem to go more often than the relay do_
> Good idea Nabism I have looked at the fuse list but none of them seem to be probable's for that but I will check them when the rain lets up.  In fact just about every heavy fuse is about to be checked.  In my experience; relays tend to look a little dodgy when they burn out or whatever.  This one looks and sounds (when shaken) pristine (on the table beside me) so I am hopeful you are right about the fuse.


Easy thing to bench test, many look ok but the coils inside burn or the points face, this is due to being undersized, a load of and up to 200amps can pass through in cranking use, hence I said use a big unit and battery cables, not the we flimsy units and thin wires.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

Thanks,  When I find out how to test the relay I will do that and keep you posted.


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## trevskoda (Dec 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks,  When I find out how to test the relay I will do that and keep you posted.


Simple with a battery and two bits of wire, battery across 85 86, then a test meter or load across 30/87.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

Thanks Trev , I have put old battery in garage on charge as too wet to work on wagon outside and we shall see.  Is that purely a continuity test? Must be mustn't it?


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## yeoblade (Dec 18, 2022)

Using trev's pic above  across 85 - 86 coil resistance maybe 50 ohms .
Then to check relay contacts across 30 -87  should read short (0 ohms)  and then open circuit (infinity ohms) when applying and then removing 12vdc  on 85 - 86 .
If your relay isn't numbered as above then the 2 large pins will be =  30 and 87  and control/coil the 2 small ones =  85 and 86.
BUT - Most likely be a fuse that has failed.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

Thanks Trev and Yeo. Battery charged up so here goes,  will it click?


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

It clicks like a good'n.  My skill with multi meter limited but we have continuity and then no continuity so I think the relay is working so it is a case of find the fuse. I will look at them all before I give up but too dark and wet now so lets hope for a drier morning.  Thanks again lads, lovely to have such people about.


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## mistericeman (Dec 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> It clicks like a good'n.  My skill with multi meter limited but we have continuity and then no continuity so I think the relay is working so it is a case of find the fuse. I will look at them all before I give up but too dark and wet now so lets hope for a drier morning.  Thanks again lads, lovely to have such people about.


Bear in mind depending on the converter some are fused local to the leisure battery (on our Swift there is a fuse just next to the battery terminal in the under floor battery locker)


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

Thanks, I will bear that in mind when searching


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## yeoblade (Dec 18, 2022)

Plan 'b' could be fit a battery to battery charger, which would charge leisure batts at a decent rate, ideal in this weather.


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## trevskoda (Dec 18, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Trev , I have put old battery in garage on charge as too wet to work on wagon outside and we shall see.  Is that purely a continuity test? Must be mustn't it?


Yes and if it opens and closed the heavy contacts then working fine, a bench test with a load is best, old car h lamp bulb etc will work.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 18, 2022)

yeoblade said:


> Plan 'b' could be fit a battery to battery charger, which would charge leisure batts at a decent rate, ideal in this weather.


As I have a lithium jump starter, I suppose I could risk that, maybe.


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## trevskoda (Dec 18, 2022)

Or a proper 2 way charger.


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## Nabsim (Dec 19, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> _The split charge relay should be fused at both the starter battery and leisure battery bank ends. My original had piggy back fuse blocks each end each containing a 50A and 2A fuse. Check/replace those fuses first as they seem to go more often than the relay do_
> Good idea Nabism I have looked at the fuse list but none of them seem to be probable's for that but I will check them when the rain lets up.  In fact just about every heavy fuse is about to be checked.  In my experience; relays tend to look a little dodgy when they burn out or whatever.  This one looks and sounds (when shaken) pristine (on the table beside me) so I am hopeful you are right about the fuse.


The ones I am talking about are not in any fuse box but a few inches away from both the starter and leisure batteries on mine. These are as per original install by Geist/LMC and not an add on as I first thought. Mine has two wires and a double, piggy back fuse holder each end. From memory the 50A fuses do the split charging and the 2A fuses are for the Schaudt EBL control system.
If either of the 50A or 2A fuses failed the split charge didn’t work. On mine the split charge relay is inside the Schaudt unit and the 2A switches the relay I believe. As yours is different the two sets of fuses may be separate also so may be harder to locate. Good luck


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## Harrytherid (Dec 19, 2022)

Thanks Nabism.  Does anyone know what is the red plastic thingy, looks like a fuse but it is plastic over the top of the battery under the floor on the passenger side of the 2007 Ducato (driver side of my LHD)


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## yeoblade (Dec 19, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Nabism.  Does anyone know what is the red plastic thingy, looks like a fuse but it is plastic over the top of the battery under the floor on the passenger side of the 2007 Ducato (driver side of my LHD)


Not until you show us a picture of it!


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## witzend (Dec 19, 2022)

yeoblade said:


> Not until you show us a picture of it!


is this the one


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## yeoblade (Dec 19, 2022)

witzend said:


> is this the one
> 
> 
> View attachment 116119


Exactly the  same as mine. I think it just screws down terminal/fuse block to the battery. But I did think it a bit elaborate for just that, so I am probably wrong. Red to show it's positive.


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## witzend (Dec 19, 2022)

yeoblade said:


> Exactly the  same as mine. I think it just screws down terminal/fuse block to the battery. But I did think it a bit elaborate for just that, so I am probably wrong. Red to show it's positive.


When I changed my battery I couldn't work out what it was for ?


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## Harrytherid (Dec 20, 2022)

Yes that is the one, so none of us know what it is for eh?  Seems a bit elaborate for a washer to screw down the terminal block to the battery; it looks like some kind of a fuse but it is plastic! Got me foxed, be nice to know though. Red to show it MUST have some purpose, I don't know.  The Split charge fuse would seem to be one of those beige, brown red and orange blocks on the left.  I replaced one of those when I renewed the battery some time ago.  If my memory serves me right (unlikely these days) it is the red one 50A.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 20, 2022)

Cor NOW what has gone wrong, or more probably what am I doing wrong.  Went to move wagon into more favourable position for access to those fuses (too near the garden and Julie's prized plants), checked it was not in gear hit the starter and crank, crank, crank but no firing.  It was going fine through the cold weather when one might have expected problems but it is much warmer now and it refuses to fire.  Battery now on charge for next attempt, any ideas?


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## Nabsim (Dec 20, 2022)

Wait and see when battery has been charged I reckon. 

Obscure things I could think of if it still doesn’t go then would be check fuel/water separator. For a few years now I have just jumped in and turned the key, worst was jump starting, so not best to advise. Apart from that I have never had a Fiat either. I wouldn’t worry though until you have given a good, fully charged battery a go first. Hope that’s all it needs


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## Harrytherid (Dec 20, 2022)

Thanks Nabsim when 14+ volts I will have another go


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 21, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Nabism.  Does anyone know what is the red plastic thingy, looks like a fuse but it is plastic over the top of the battery under the floor on the passenger side of the 2007 Ducato (driver side of my LHD)



See my post *#6* in an earlier thread. The red clip is shown from 6,15






						Plastic clip on vehicle battery
					

Just looking at the vehicle battery in my Peugeot Boxer Motorhome in the cab passenger footwell Can anyone tell me what the red clip with 2 posidrive screws that fixes to the battery is, what is its function ? I am struggling to remove the red positive side assembly after loosening off the 10mm...




					wildcamping.co.uk


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

I read all that thread and it seems over elaborate for such a small job but maybe that is it.  Just a marker.  Well 14volts this morning, crank x lots and still no go. Where would the fuel/water separator be then? anyone know?


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## yeoblade (Dec 21, 2022)

As it was working, but not since your relay investigation, I  would re-check all the relays and things that you disturbed, that they're refitted correctly. 
Is there any smell of diesel when it turns over? Maybe fuel pump relay not good.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

Pretty sure all refitted correctly.  Only one relay removed and that refitted with great care.  No smell of diesel from in the cab but it is raining again,(must get a gazebo to work under) but thanks for the pointers.


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## mistericeman (Dec 21, 2022)

Any dash lights or oddly flashing immobiliser lights etc


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

mistericeman said:


> Any dash lights or oddly flashing immobiliser lights etc


not that I have noticed, I will look again


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

Well would you believe it,  I reluctantly took the cover off the fuse and relay box and pushed down on all the fuses and relays and one of the relays went down a tiny bit with a click and lo and behold the thing started. Snag is when I turned the ignition off it kept running until I turned it back on again, then it stopped.  Tried it again still the same .  What is stopping it from turning off, I imagine there is a compression release solenoid somewhere that has chosen now to play up, Just to get me completely peed off eh?  Still at least I can move the wagon to where I want it.  I will give those relays another push and see what happens.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

It seems that every time I take the cover off the fuse/relay box something different happens. Is it, I thought, the fuel hose over the top that has to be moved over to get the box top off, that is the problem.  So with that hose hooked up out of the way of the box cover I tried the engine and hey, it went. Still needed the ignition switch half back on to turn off the engine.  Did the re-parking which allowed me to perform a much need clean of the drive.  Turned engine off and on again and off to check but the third time I tried to start up it failed to go again.  Weird.  It will be some silly little thing, I am sure.  I have not tried it again but I would be surprised if another tweak of that pipe does not have the desired effect.


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## yeoblade (Dec 21, 2022)

Oh dear, but you're onto the problem, something loose plug/socket maybe giving you some grief. No smell of diesel in the area? split pipe?


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## Harrytherid (Dec 21, 2022)

No nothing I can find Yeo.  I shall naturally keep looking until it is sorted.  I keep wondering about a floating blockage within that pipe but that would give me other problems I think


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## witzend (Dec 21, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> I read all that thread and it seems over elaborate for such a small job but maybe that is it.  Just a marker.  Well 14volts this morning, crank x lots and still no go. Where would the fuel/water separator be then? anyone know?









			Amazon.co.uk
		

Heres a couple of links in the second is a picture in the lower half of filter is the water drain its coloured white to drain water from filter with it in place you need to unscrew it gently while the ign is turned on this will push water out from the bottom of filter if theres any there


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## witzend (Dec 21, 2022)

There is also another wiring problem that causes a lot of problems on 2007 x250's  I had this with mine theres a place where the loom rises to enter the ECU where its tight to one of the ecu mounts which rubs thru the wires insulation causing shorts If you do a Google You'll find info I put a link to it earlier but it was blocked heres some pics in second pic you can see the rusty bar which causes the problem


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## trevskoda (Dec 21, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> It seems that every time I take the cover off the fuse/relay box something different happens. Is it, I thought, the fuel hose over the top that has to be moved over to get the box top off, that is the problem.  So with that hose hooked up out of the way of the box cover I tried the engine and hey, it went. Still needed the ignition switch half back on to turn off the engine.  Did the re-parking which allowed me to perform a much need clean of the drive.  Turned engine off and on again and off to check but the third time I tried to start up it failed to go again.  Weird.  It will be some silly little thing, I am sure.  I have not tried it again but I would be surprised if another tweak of that pipe does not have the desired effect.


Sometimes there is only one way to sort problems.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 22, 2022)

I have to say Witz; Diamond Dave's video was excellent makes me want to have a go myself.  Had one need changing in France and guy charged me €300 plus for a new one where I probably only needed the element for a tenner or so (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322909338032) and max half an hours work.  Removal tool £19 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313561314964.  Mind you all that wiping he does, I would put the fuel in a suitable pot and wash the housing in that to remove the contaminants.
_Sometimes there is only one way to sort problems _I have to say that when I hit my head on the mirror (have to duck under it where I park) I have to try very hard to stop myself ripping it off, remembering how much they cost


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## witzend (Dec 22, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> I have to say Witz; Diamond Dave's video was excellent


An if you do a filter plenty of grease on seal an treads when reassembling


Harrytherid said:


> I would put the fuel in a suitable pot and wash the housing in that to remove the contaminants.


That's contaminated fuel so best thrown away I use a spray can of brake cleaner for cleaning most things

Now check the amazon link and you'll see where to drain any water retained in the filter


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## Harrytherid (Dec 22, 2022)

What/where is this Amazon link.  I would dry the contaminated diesel off but brake cleaner sounds good,  must tell my son to get me some for xmas


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## yeoblade (Dec 22, 2022)

These fuel filter are crap. Mine split and dumped fuel everywhere and it hadn't been touched for a least 2 years. AA breakdown got a new one from Vospers main dealer for £180 and it was fitted on the campsite. I now carry a spare with me £70 , exact same one off ebay. ready for the next time it splits.


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## Harrytherid (Dec 22, 2022)

eh?


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## witzend (Dec 22, 2022)

witzend said:


> Amazon.co.uk
> 
> 
> Heres the Amazon link in the second is a picture in the lower half of filter is the water drain its coloured white to drain water from filter with it in place you need to unscrew it gently while the ign is turned on this will push water out from the bottom of filter if theres any there


Link was Here below diamond daves video


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## Harrytherid (Dec 22, 2022)

Thanks Witz, seen; but I still don't understand what Yeo was saying.  I was suggesting replacing the filter its self, not the casing, as the video shows; so this splitting business is not relevant, is it?  Probably just me misreading something, I am good at that, misreading, that is. Better get the fire lit or I shall be in trouble.  She does like a flame or two even though it is not that cold now


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## Harrytherid (Dec 22, 2022)

BTW I did not recognise the Amazon link as a link.  How do you do really short ones like that.  You will notice my ones are not half so tidy.


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## yeoblade (Dec 22, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Witz, seen; but I still don't understand what Yeo was saying.  I was suggesting replacing the filter its self, not the casing, as the video shows; so this splitting business is not relevant, is it?  Probably just me misreading something, I am good at that, misreading, that is.


These filter holders split and dump diesel. I don't know if it was that the filter was changed before I had the van and incorrectly torqued down or they didn't use the correct tool for the job. But it split 2 years after I owned the van. I have heard of this problem before.
Since the whole new assembly was replaced, 4 years ago , it has been OK.


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## witzend (Dec 22, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> BTW I did not recognise the Amazon link as a link.  How do you do really short ones like that.


I use this site https://tinyurl.com/app/myurls


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## witzend (Dec 22, 2022)

Harrytherid said:


> Thanks Witz, seen; but I still don't understand what Yeo was saying.


There's been 100's of reports of these filter housings failing some after a filter change some like Yeo's fail for no apparent reason after yrs of trouble free use. I've changed mine 3 times in 10 yrs as normal service using the tool you linked to using a torque wrench to reassemble with threads and seal well lubricated. I carry torque wrench + filter and assem tool and in case housing fails a length of fuel pipe and 2 jubilee clips to bypass the filter


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## Harrytherid (Dec 23, 2022)

Oh I think I see now, Yeo; You were talking about the original casing being crap not an after market rubbish replacement.  So maybe it was good that I got a new one rather than the old one fitted with a new filter.  I shall carry on regardless in hopes and relying on emergency get you going service as before but I can at least tell them what is needed having seen your post, Witz. 

Tiny URL, I shall, in future, use that site Witz;  looks very good.  Good grief, this forum and some of it's denizens is/are wonderful. 

Must go look at those fuses again now I have the thing parked and the drive swept, though the blackbirds have flicked leaves all over the drive again Grrr!  A friend of mine, when told of the engine nor switching off reckoned the ignition switch might be at fault,  I do hope not.  I shall persevere as it is and see how it goes after reasonably long drive again.  I just have to tweak that fuel pipe before trying to start (if it won't go) and hope I am not storing up other trouble for myself.


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## yeoblade (Dec 23, 2022)

witzend said:


> .............................. *length of fuel pipe and 2 jubilee clips to bypass the filter*


That's what the breakdown were looking at doing too, is it not difficult as there are plug in  fuel couplings to the filter?


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## Stevenlinda (Dec 23, 2022)

SimonM said:


> I think a partial answer to your question is regarding the *earth straps *Fiat are renowned for needing a good *earth* and it often compromises starting and charging. So double check them, the area beneath where they are bolted down, clean and if necessary replace with better quality ones.


Ours broke down in Portugal turned engine but wouldn't fire up mechanic came three long extentions hit them with a lump hammer on earth bolt under battery on wing €10 and a packet of quality street reyt bargain


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## Harrytherid (Dec 24, 2022)

Fitted the new wiper rubbers I bought a little while ago and went out to try them.  Tried engine,; started fine and turned off as it should, wow! but the engine warning light came on, I went in dejected without looking at those fuses as I was going to.  I will have another go boxing day if weather reasonable.  Maybe I shall get it sorted eventually but at least is goes and stops fine.  Got present wrapping to do now.  what does "reyt" mean


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## trevskoda (Dec 24, 2022)

Another fuse would BLOW your mind.


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