# Winter Solar



## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

Hey Guys,,,,
I am currently sat here in a park up having a Cider or three with a very good friend of mine of many years & the topic has enevitivly got around to ‘POWER’ ,,,Now THAT in itself I find HELERIOUS as he is currently plugged into ‘The Nest’ as I have just started  my Genny for 1hr to cook some Dinner (Jacket Spud & Pigion Brest, with Vegtable Curry) Heat the water tank, Charge OUR Phones, Laptops & all the other Re-Chargible devices we have between us as well as Give our Leasure Batteries a boost (he is VERY low on power at moment),,,So
MY QUESTION -
I welcome comments from members that can Be absolutely honest in their Solar harvesting IN REAL LIFE !.
Spaciifically -
Could a 3x150w Solar pannal installation (He has 200W & is thinking of up gradeing as it’s not enough)  harvest an average ‘IN WINTER IN MID UK’ 60A per day ?.
I had a boat that had solar & Wind gen harvesting & Wind beat Solar EVERY week on average (I had a Rutland 913) & Loved it.
He is just in denial lol lol lol.


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## wildebus (Jan 4, 2019)

Phil and Rae will have data from Hereford that could help to answer your question.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

Oooo Brilliant,,,Hope they pop by as I’m about to forget about my Jacket Spud Dinner & Substitute it with ‘Leg of Brian’ !


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

& I’m currently matching my Genny at Around the .75lt an hour mark all be it with different fuel requirements!


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## Nabsim (Jan 4, 2019)

You already know the answer NZ


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

That’s it, off now,,,Around an hour of Genny time has given a hot meal for the two of us, It’s also Charged Both our Rechargeable bits n bobs, it’s also Given Hot water for the washing up of dishes while the microwave & Forman Grill was on in correografed time Plus’s leaving us both with A Tank of Hot water in our individual vans water heaters for a wash tonight or whatever for a cost of 0.75lt of Petrol (Let’s say £1) cheaper than a camp site Electric charge in many a case & MUCH more dependable than Solar !.
Oh I love my Genny lol lol.


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## harrow (Jan 4, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> That’s it, off now,,,Around an hour of Genny time has given a hot meal for the two of us, It’s also Charged Both our Rechargeable bits n bobs, it’s also Given Hot water for the washing up of dishes while the microwave & Forman Grill was on in correografed time Plus’s leaving us both with A Tank of Hot water in our individual vans water heaters for a wash tonight or whatever for a cost of 0.75lt of Petrol (Let’s say £1) cheaper than a camp site Electric charge in many a case & MUCH more dependable than Solar !.
> Oh I love my Genny lol lol.



Yes there is just not enough sun in the winter.


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## wildebus (Jan 4, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> That’s it, off now,,,Around an hour of Genny time has given a hot meal for the two of us, It’s also Charged Both our Rechargeable bits n bobs, it’s also Given Hot water for the washing up of dishes while the microwave & Forman Grill was on in correografed time Plus’s leaving us both with A Tank of Hot water in our individual vans water heaters for a wash tonight or whatever for a cost of 0.75lt of Petrol (Let’s say £1) cheaper than a camp site Electric charge in many a case & MUCH more dependable than Solar !.
> Oh I love my Genny lol lol.


What power Generator do you have?


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

2200w
I believe!


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## shaunr68 (Jan 4, 2019)

I have 300w solar which I think if you're parked on the equator on a clear day in mid summer should produce a theoretical maximum charge of around 22Ah.  I'm spending the winter in Portugal with bright sunshine every day (I know, not smug at all) yet the sun is still low in the sky and it peaks at around 8Ah.  Enough for my needs, but a few overcast days and it won't be sufficient.

In the UK, 450w on a typical dull winter day you'd be lucky to charge at 2-3 amps for 6 hours a day.   He'd need more than 1Kw of solar to meet his requirements.  All IMHO


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

Thanks Shaun,
Appreciate your input & Enjoy Portugal Matey


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

The test will be when HE provides Dinner Tomorrow night I guess !


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## Canalsman (Jan 4, 2019)

I concur that solar panels alone will not provide sufficient power in Winter.

I have recently had a battery-to-battery charger fitted in order to cover the deficiency. In my view running the engine at idle on occasion is a cheap way to top up the batteries in the event that I am not relocating to take on water, for example.


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## wildebus (Jan 4, 2019)

POI Admin said:


> I concur that solar panels alone will not provide sufficient power in Winter.
> 
> I have recently had a battery-to-battery charger fitted in order to cover the deficiency. In my view running the engine at idle on occasion is a cheap way to top up the batteries in the event that I am not relocating to take on water, for example.


yup, with a decent sized B2B, you will get more energy into the battery on a 15 minute idle then all day with a typical 200W solar installation.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 4, 2019)

Jays said:


> In one hour you generated 2.2 kw hours.
> To complete all stated , requires more power.
> Figures do not add up.



How do you work that out then, Talk me through your sums !.
Don’t know where you’re coming from with that train of thought!
Rough Example-
Both Phones, Laptop, Tablet, Rechargeable Torches, & his Leasure Battery charger All Plugged in & ready to charge.
All Grub Opend & Prepared, So Genny ON ! 
Microwave on for 8 ish minutes to do 2 medium Jacket Spuds, When Finished-
Then 
Forman Grill On for 5 ish minutes to do 2 Pigeon Brests, When Finished (But leaving Brest & Spuds On Grill to keep Hot)-
Then
Microwave on for another 4 ish minutes to heat Dish of Curry. When Finished-
Nestle the Jacket Spud in the Middle of a Plate, Wedge in Butter & Pidgin Brest, surround with Curry & Microwave for a further 3 ish minutes a Plate.
(So that’s say 25 ish minutes gone)
Sit & eat while Both Hot water tanks are on for say 20 ish minutes ish until we finished eating Then wash up using some of the hot water from my tank allowing My tank to top up & Heat up again while Drying up & Putting away. ALL That still only ‘Roughly’ accounts for say 45 ish minuets.  still a good 15 minutes or so in Credit at a guess 
So let’s see your figures to back up the comment you made ?.


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## shaunr68 (Jan 4, 2019)

wildebus said:


> yup, with a decent sized B2B, you will get more energy into the battery on a 15 minute idle then all day with a typical 200W solar installation.


Is it ok to idle a modern diesel for long periods?


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## molly 2 (Jan 5, 2019)

shaunr68 said:


> Is it ok to idle a modern diesel for long periods?



 Not recommended  with  particulate  filter and catalytic converter.  To clog up  .


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## jagmanx (Jan 5, 2019)

*IF*

We were to use MoHo in the winter (Which is very very unlikely)

I would look for an underslung LPG genny
We do not have any room for a "portable genny"...if we did I would be interested in LPG
Canal boat companies have them (LPG gennys that is)

OK expensive at first but then cheaper and easier than an external Petrol Genny.

I do not think that even tilting Solar (lots) and Lithium batteries would do the job in winter
As has been posted a Genny is reliable

However when all is said and done EHU every few days might cost (including camping) £35 a week

OK a drip feed cost but maybe as good as anything as you also get water and waste.
I appreciate NZ has other solutions foe W&W


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## saxonborg (Jan 5, 2019)

molly 2 said:


> Not recommended  with  particulate  filter and catalytic converter.  To clog up  .



Not to mention bore glazing and subsequent oil consumption.


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## ricc (Jan 5, 2019)

is bore glazing a problem on reasonably modern engines?

on a lot of agricultural tractors the engines are low reving ... typically 2,5k  rpm max.   a lot of the low power requirement power driven attachments are geared so that the tractors big diesel can run at about 1000 rpm all day long.... not that much different to a small (relitavely) van engine at idle.


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## ScoTTyBEEE (Jan 5, 2019)

Yes solar can work, providing you use gas for everything and solar to charge your phone/iPad, not even a laptop.


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## yorkslass (Jan 5, 2019)

N z,  check out Phil's article on Motorhomer about solar in Winter. While at Hereford he took readings in different light conditions and did the same with Streetsleepers tilting set up. Interesting.


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## trevskoda (Jan 5, 2019)

shaunr68 said:


> Is it ok to idle a modern diesel for long periods?



NO


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## wildebus (Jan 5, 2019)

Long term diesel idle meant to be a bad idea.  
I mentioned 15 minutes.... That long term? Not to me.


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## trevskoda (Jan 5, 2019)

ricc said:


> is bore glazing a problem on reasonably modern engines?
> 
> on a lot of agricultural tractors the engines are low reving ... typically 2,5k  rpm max.   a lot of the low power requirement power driven attachments are geared so that the tractors big diesel can run at about 1000 rpm all day long.... not that much different to a small (relitavely) van engine at idle.



When a engine is under load the rings will be pushed out onto the bore and also hot which works the detergent in oils,sitting ticking over with no load wrecks engines and clogs up sensors and filters.
I work all my engines hard and have clocked up 4 times round the clock on some with no bother.
When i used to work on cars the troublesome engines or badly worn ones were mainly owned by old codgers and ladies how thought by driving slow were saving them,total tosh.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

jagmanx said:


> We were to use MoHo in the winter (Which is very very unlikely)
> 
> I would look for an underslung LPG genny
> We do not have any room for a "portable genny"...if we did I would be interested in LPG
> ...



Hi ya,
I agree, & my mate is only now coming around to the idea that after spending a fair few hundred pounds on a Solar harvest system a cpl of year ago in the hope to meet his power requirements while Living aboard his van & make life a bit more comfortable just hasn’t worked out for him.
Power is ALWAYS on his mind, Especially for around 6 months of the year. I reckon that part of his problem is he hasn’t done a proper power audit aboard in order to fully understand his requirements since having the system fitted in June 2016, combined with not doing enough engine Hrs to subsidise the short fall. He has also killed 2 Leasure Battery banks (2x100a/h = 200a/h) in that time. Still he has just left now, with more Amps in his batteries than when he arrived, & has got an hour drive to his next park up so should be ok for tonight lol lol, I also thinking he is caught in a cycle of trying to justify the money he has spent on the installation & Battery replacement (maybe at a guess £900 or more) in what is now only just dawning on him as a bad decision for him to have done & still doesn’t meet his needs. He could have bought 3 decent generators for that !.

HEY !,,,,And he got away with not providing Dinner tonight!.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

hairydog said:


> In the UK, you can expect one hour of sunshine per day on average insolation in winter. So a 200watt panel (which will be about 150 watts because it is flat) will give an average of 150 watt hours per day. Or about 8Ah per day. But of course there will be better days and worse days.



Yeah that’s kinda what my view was in the conversation, In fact I said that it might be a good working average to adopt to take the figures over a WEEK rather than daily in the Darker Months & say it’s probably only harvesting 30A / 35A a week.
I also said that Running your TV, Radio, Laptop, & EVEN using his CB all on a Nighty basis isn’t going to help lol lol


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## jagmanx (Jan 5, 2019)

*As you say*



hairydog said:


> I do use my motorhome in winter (including right now) and I do have an underslung LPG gennie. I almost never use it. If you are sensible and use LPG for cooking and heating, do not use an inverter and have sensible battery capacity, there is no need for a generator. But solar panels are more or less useless at this time of year. A good b2b charger and a decent alternator will be enough, as long as you drive for about one hour every other day.



But you have to drive for 1 hour
So maybe 6 litres of Diesel at say £1.50 a litre = £9
Cheaper to pay £3 EHU !
It is a complex scenario and depends on members preferences/usage profile
I was just suggesting that Solar alone is not enough
You may cut down on charging items etc but heating uses both gas and battery/maybe 3x100Solar Panel and several batteries(@£100 each) would allow 3 or 4 days and then go on EHU or drive as you say every 2 or 3 days.
But you also fresh water and disposal !
As  I posted we do not use our vehicle in the winter (we "semigrate")
But even in September we use EHU
The rest of the summer we "wild" and have loads of power with a 120W panel and a single 85AH battery
We use aires / stellplatz and will use EHU if we need and the cost is OK (eg 1 euro for ???)

Your underslung LPG GENNY is a great safety net !  as I posted ( in a sense ).

It would be of interest to know the cost (PM me if you prefer) 
Thanks


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## saxonborg (Jan 5, 2019)

ricc said:


> is bore glazing a problem on reasonably modern engines?
> 
> on a lot of agricultural tractors the engines are low reving ... typically 2,5k  rpm max.   a lot of the low power requirement power driven attachments are geared so that the tractors big diesel can run at about 1000 rpm all day long.... not that much different to a small (relitavely) van engine at idle.



It is not so much the low rpm, if the engine is idling it is doing no work, whereas with the tractor even at low revs it would still be working hard.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 5, 2019)

It isn't a matter of method A, or method B or method C, but rather a combination of A AND B AND C  AND D, where D is certain appliances being run on propane or diesel.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

Well as far as my mates 200 W Solar set up goes, It simply doesn’t meet his needs as a Livaboard & was considering up grading with yet more Solar, Batteries & Whatever else.
Yeah I think his heating fan takes a lot of power over a Eve/Night & is obviously on a fair bit at the moment & I KNOW he gets through a load of gas, He has a Gaslow re-Fillable system (1x11kg Main & 1x6kg reserve I think) & He fills up at least once a week or even more, with Fill up points on his mind as he travels almost as much as power lol lol
I said just Stick with the Solar you’ve got, Maybe fit an extra battery or even two if you have space & Payload, Chuck you’re TV & Games Thingamajig Out, Drive more, Buy a Genny & Fit a Multi Fuel Burner as a start lol lol.
So it will be interesting to see what he does.


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

Anyone fancy a Hot Chocolate Drink !.


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## wildebus (Jan 5, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> Anyone fancy a Hot Chocolate Drink !.


With Marshmallows?

Just for fun, I took your cooking and water and worked out the total  (assumed some numbers not given and made your MW 1200 Watts (assuming it was an 800W one) and your water heater same as mine for both vans)

Device	Watts	Time	Purpose
MW	1200	8	Spuds
FG	800	        5	Pigeon
MW	1200	4	Curry
MW	1200	3	Finish Off Cook

*Cooking	366.7	Wh	*

Water 2200	20	2kW Heater, 10L
Water 2200	20	As Above for other van

*Water Heater	1466.7	Wh	*


*Grand Total	1833.3	Wh*

And the spare power from 2200W Genny in the hour running goes to battery charging.  Seems doable to me


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## r4dent (Jan 5, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> ... Could a 3x150w Solar pannal installation (He has 200W & is thinking of up gradeing as it’s not enough)  harvest an average ‘IN WINTER IN MID UK’ 60A per day ?.



Before I start the math I assume you mean 60 *ah* per day.  Hate being a pedant but it is a complex calculation and I need to be sure I understand what you are after.  Is the Panel fixed Horizontally of can it be tilted (makes a vast difference).


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

Hi ya WB,
Do you know what, I was just saying to another mate & fellow WC member just the othe day when he popped in for coffee that -
‘I really like the effort & Work that goes into some of Wildebus’s Posts when he’s working stuff out, It’s a Credit to you’.

(BTW Yep ref the Microwave But we have both got the 6LT 630w Water tanks).


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

r4dent said:


> Before I start the math I assume you mean 60 *ah* per day.  Hate being a pedant but it is a complex calculation and I need to be sure I understand what you are after.  Is the Panel fixed Horizontally of can it be tilted (makes a vast difference).



Hi ya,
& No not a pedant, You’re absolutely right to clarify.
Yesss I mean his requirements are ‘Roughly’ 50A / Hr a day, So I ‘Future Proofed’ it a Bit to 60A / Hr a day & They are ‘Kinda’ Tilted But Only as far as it follows the ‘Rake’ of his roof, So probably best to say Flat.

Added note, He has a new ish 2x100Ah Leasure Battery Bank set up & when FULL or at 12.65v or so, & he is parked up for Two Days They will be down to Around the 12.1V on a few occasions, This has helped base his power usage guesstimate!.


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## wildebus (Jan 5, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> Hi ya WB,
> Do you know what, I was just saying to another mate & fellow WC member just the othe day when he popped in for coffee that -
> ‘I really like the effort & Work that goes into some of Wildebus’s Posts when he’s working stuff out, It’s a Credit to you’.
> 
> ...


so that is around 600Wh off the water heater overhead and straight into the battery charging :banana:


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 5, 2019)

hairydog said:


> Amps is (roughly) the speed the electricity is flowing at. The equivalent of miles per hour.
> 
> Amp hours is the total amount of electricity used. The equivalent of miles.
> 
> It isn't 50A / Hr because the / implies division, but it is multiplication: an amp hour is an amp for an hour, just as a mile is one mph for an hour. So the abbreviation is Ah.



Thanks for that HD, 
Of course you’re right.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Most of us stopped taking part in pissing contests by the end of first grade.


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## RoadTrek Boy (Jan 6, 2019)

Not if you made a career out of it...:scared::lol-061::lol-061:


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 6, 2019)

I actually need a wee,
I will take my Tape measure (And a Blinking Torch !)


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## wildebus (Jan 6, 2019)

Nesting Zombie said:


> I actually need a wee,
> I will take my Tape measure (And a Blinking Torch !)



Is that what they invented "Head" Torches for?


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 6, 2019)

with the amount if Cider I had the other night it’s more like a Lazer pointer,

Dam,

Has anyone ever tried Texting, Holding a Torch & a Tape measure while having a wee !


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## Nabsim (Jan 6, 2019)

If he is your mate NZ sit on him, take his debit card and buy him a genny lol


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## Nesting Zombie (Jan 7, 2019)

Just got a msg from my mate, Now he left here with a fair charge, Drove for 90min So arrived at his chosen park up for the night with a Good Full Charge (12.70v showing on his meter so 100%) in his batteries. He DIDNT use hardly anything from arriving or the first night (He said he found THAT blinking hard lol lol). When he woke up he still had 12.56v on his meter. So all good for a night if he just sits there lol.
Anyway YESTERDAY he just used his bits n bobs aboard as usual allowing the daylight to contribute as best it could throughout the day, & he has just taken another reading having just got up & it’s down to 12.40v. So I really do think that he Just uses more than his panels put in. 

As I said earlier I’ve had Solar & Wing Harvesting in the past & LOVE the idea of having as many ways of Harvesting Energy as you can possibly & realistically have, But the system MUST be ‘Matched’ to your needs.


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