# Camping in a Parking lot



## David & Ann (Oct 13, 2011)

I have deleted the my Thread Post due to unforeseen circumstances.


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## kenspain (Oct 13, 2011)

This is one reson you will find it hard next year to freecamp down here every year for the last 6 years we meet friends in Almeria always the same place this week we were told to move on as no sleeping over night, is now only allowed on approved site,s were ever there are.


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## Firefox (Oct 13, 2011)

Why did they need the trailer tent? It looks like a 5-6 berth Van.

Stealth potential 0/10 which is why overnighting gets banned. Still, if you have a high rated cloaking device it wont matter anyway  Only the big coachbuilts will suffer.


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## Byronic (Oct 13, 2011)

Are you certain it was the motorhome that was towing the trailer tent?


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## maureenandtom (Oct 13, 2011)

Stupidity and insensitivity beyond belief.   If anybody needed to be shown the difference between camping and parking, then here it is.

You're right to show it and it's very disturbing to me because I had hardly believed stories like this when told to me.   Certainly in all these years I've never seen this and I'd have had difficulty in believing it would have happened in a residential area.

Edit:  Ah, saw the post above.  I hadn't thought of the two being separate but it hardly makes a difference.   Still provocative of resentment from residents.


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## al n sal (Oct 13, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> Should I have posted this picture or not? If not, I will remove as soon as I get a post from you folks.



we should have more pics of this kind of thing for over here...name and shame....if they can explain no shame....:idea-007:


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## Firefox (Oct 13, 2011)

How does the arrangement of the 4 chairs support that they are separate units though


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 13, 2011)

If someone parked a trailer tent (or another Motorhome) on a car park that close to my motorhome, I would move away.  I may have parked first but wouldn't stay.  We can only guess that the units are together.


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## Bernard Jones (Oct 13, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> Here is a picture of an English MH overnighting in the Parking lot in Almeria.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, Why didn't they park nearer the lamp post to hook up to the electricity


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## Byronic (Oct 13, 2011)

No, I wouldn't park that close to a stranger, but the stranger might park that close to me, and sometimes has. The motorhome and trailer tent look an unlikely combination to me. I may start taking bets on this.


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## MOS (Oct 13, 2011)

Having wondered about the parking close phenomonen on occasions i discussed it with a few french and dutch MH/ers, and suposedly its good manners to park close and even on buisy Aires,so as not to waste space when infilling by later arrivals ,i dont know how true this is but on the odd occasions we have been on buisy aires a lot of our continental counterparts seem to do it .but there are allways some who want more garden than others .HoHum takes all sorts to make a colourfull world ..


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## coolasluck (Oct 13, 2011)

Thats a good point why?

Why when you have a big empty space along a promenade or car park do people feel they have to park near you,it happens all the time,what a load of tossers


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## el-D (Oct 13, 2011)

Good grief! Whoever owns the trailer tent, whether the units are together or not, they really are pushing it too much. I'm sure we all do our best to blend in when we wild camp and then move on. This just isn't reasonable is it.

On the subject of close up and friendly, as has been said, we're all different. I'd have a duck-fit if someone parked that close to me but I guess others are happier in close company.

What is a pity of course is the knock-on effect of this kind of unreasonable behaviour on others. It's not surprising if notices start to appear banning overnight stops in public areas and that is just what we don't want, do we! Is it significant that no-one has popped up here and said, "Hey! Take my picture off of here!"? Clearly only sensible wild campers visit these pages!


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 13, 2011)

When I go into an Aire or parking place I look to see where the other vans are.  Often another Brit is parked well away from those parked cheek to jowel.  I then try to park well away from anyone else.

When in the UK on car parks I try to hug the edge or better still get into a corner,  however car drivers will still come and park right next to us even though there are other spaces available.


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## el-D (Oct 13, 2011)

A while back I was out for the day in the car and we stopped in a pleasant village where parking was in a fairly large field. Since we planned to picnic I parked way over the other side. The obvious happened of course: we came back to find a nice neat row of cars alongside. So just for fun I moved to another empty edge of the field. Sure enough, when we came back to have lunch there they all were, another row parked immaculately either side of us! It's the English isn't it, we'll form a queue at the drop of a hat! Mind you, in car parks I guess we're conditioned by tradition: the old boy in his high-viz mack who tells you exactly where to park and woe betide you if you defy him!


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## donkey too (Oct 13, 2011)

My snoring usualy makes people move away from my van. I snore for England :dnd:and have even been asked on one occassion to find another pitch.


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## David & Ann (Oct 13, 2011)

We were in bed reading when at around 00:30 hrs they drove in and pitched up. They were a family from Scotland, Mom Dad, Son and wife with 2 kids. We were parked directly in front of them. Told them they could have hassle from the Cops. They said they were tired and would be leaving first thing in the morning. True to their word, they were gone by 07:30.


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## Byronic (Oct 13, 2011)

el-D said:


> Good grief! Whoever owns the trailer tent, whether the units are together or not, they really are pushing it too much. I'm sure we all do our best to blend in when we wild camp and then move on. This just isn't reasonable is it.



I think it is very important to know for a fact whether or not the van and the trailer tent were together. Because if not, the owner of the motorhome has been identified by his numberplate on this site (in an unflattering manner should we say), he may well have just been parked in the last available space, who knows?


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## David & Ann (Oct 13, 2011)

Byronic said:


> I think it is very important to know for a fact whether or not the van and the trailer tent were together. Because if not, the owner of the motorhome has been identified by his numberplate on this site (in an unflattering manner should we say), he may well have just been parked in the last available space, who knows?



The Kontiki and the trailer were together. I saw them unhitching it and setting up home.


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## Byronic (Oct 13, 2011)

Now we know.


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## Firefox (Oct 14, 2011)

The chairs told the story, there was no other explanation.


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## Deleted member 3802 (Oct 14, 2011)

wonder if they carry the jockey rock with them :scared::lol-053:


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## David & Ann (Oct 14, 2011)

el-D said:


> What is a pity of course is the knock-on effect of this kind of unreasonable behaviour on others. It's not surprising if notices start to appear banning overnight stops in public areas and that is just what we don't want, do we! Is it significant that no-one has popped up here and said, "Hey! Take my picture off of here!"? Clearly only sensible wild campers visit these pages!




That is precisely why I said I would delete the picture if one of our friends on the Forum objected to it. It seems as though this MH owner is not a WC member. On the other hand, perhaps someone on here in the Scottisch area MIGHT recognize the Swift, Kontiki and the plate. I hope not, as I would be a dead duck for posting the picture☺☺☺


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 14, 2011)

kenspain said:


> This is one reson you will find it hard next year to freecamp down here every year for the last 6 years we meet friends in Almeria always the same place this week we were told to move on as no sleeping over night, is now only allowed on approved site,s were ever there are.



Hi Ken

Has the law changed in Spain?



> No estableix el Reglament General de Circulació altres condicions que hagin de complir-se al efectuar l’aturada o l’estacionament del vehicle, motiu pel qual es considera que mentre un vehicle qualsevol estigui correctament estacionat, sense excedir les marques vials de delimitació de la zona d’estacionament , ni la limitació temporal del mateix, si n’hi hagués, no és rellevant el fet que els seus ocupants es
> trobin en l’interior del mateix i l’autocaravana no és una excepció, havent-hi prou amb que l’activitat que es pugui portar a terme en el seu interior no s’exterioritzi a l’exterior mitjançant el desplegament de documents que traspassin el perímetre del vehicle com parades, tendals, dispositius d’anivellament, suports d’ estabilització, etc.
> 
> in English
> ...



The way I understand this is that it is OK to sleep in a vehicle in Spain provided that nothing is put outside the vehicle.  It is standing on it tyres only and is not causing an obstruction.   The trailer tent outfit in the picture is obviously in violation of this instruction 08/V-74 from the ministry of the interior.  If it was parked as a van towing a trailer and the trailer was folded up then it would comply.


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## John H (Oct 14, 2011)

I know that spot well and have stayed overnight in it - along with many others. I cannot be sure if its the same one but there is often a trailer tent parked there next to a children's roundabout which I think they run. So it may be that they are there legitimately. On the other hand..........

Sorry, David, I wrote this before reading your latest post in which you say you saw them unhitching the trailer, so obviously it is not the one I remember and they deserve to be named and shamed. If this kind of thing continues then a ban on overnight parking in this popular spot is likely. There's always (at least) one!


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## David & Ann (Oct 14, 2011)

I only took the picture. All I said they might have hassle with the Cops. My Mrs had a chat with them on a friendly basis and she said they were on their way to Alicanti. I thought best not to say anything further. It is my favourite spot, as I do meet up with a Spanish and Portugese family most years. We have great hand signal chats. 
Where to this year JH? I think you did mention where you were going, being old and senile I have forgotten. Whatever, have a great time and keep your bones nice and warm. I know I will. Oz, from Dec 10 to April 5.


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## Pollik (Oct 14, 2011)

> When in the UK on car parks I try to hug the edge or better still get into a corner, however car drivers will still come and park right next to us even though there are other spaces available.



In the UK, that may be their way of trying to annoy the heck out of you...how dare you park your motorhome in OUR car park!!



Polly


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## Firefox (Oct 14, 2011)

> does not transcend to the exterior by the setting up of elements which  surpass the perimeter of the vehicle such as stalls, awnings, levelling  devices, stabilizing devices, etc.



I would not take this to mean that the tyres have to be in contact with the road. It seems leveling ramps would be OK so long as they do not "surpass the perimeter of the vehicle". If they are under the tyres they don't in a horizontal sense. Whereas as levelling devices such as outriggers or stabilizers could do so.

In practice I wouldn't use ramps in a car park, road, or wilding situation, but the way this is worded doesn't seem to preclude their use... in Spain anyway!


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## John H (Oct 14, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> Where to this year JH? I think you did mention where you were going, being old and senile I have forgotten. Whatever, have a great time and keep your bones nice and warm. I know I will. Oz, from Dec 10 to April 5.



Off to South-east Asia this winter (without the motorhome!). Enjoy Xmas in Australia - and if you are in Sydney on Australia Day (26th Jan I think) it is well worth joining in the celebrations. :have fun:


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 14, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I would not take this to mean that the tyres have to be in contact with the road. It seems leveling ramps would be OK so long as they do not "surpass the perimeter of the vehicle". If they are under the tyres they don't in a horizontal sense. Whereas as levelling devices such as outriggers or stabilizers could do so.
> 
> In practice I wouldn't use ramps in a car park, road, or wilding situation, but the way this is worded doesn't seem to preclude their use... in Spain anyway!



The rule as described apples to parking on urban streets or roadways.  The vehicle must be parked parallel to the kerb and in a way that allows a maximum use of the remaining space by other users.  If parked on a intercity routes (not motorways or stopping restricted highways) in a non urban areas the vehicle must be as far as possible from the carrageway, leaving the hard shoulder free and on the right hand side.  Car parks can have restrictions applied by the authorities.


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## Byronic (Oct 14, 2011)

As I have mentioned on other posts, that when asked the Spanish police have told me it's OK to park (with the usual caveats of course) overnight on the public road whether you are overnight sleeping or not. But as soon as you put out anything considered as camping equipment, you are then not parking but camping, and they can then tell you to go. 
In reality of course most motorhomers will move on if told to by the police even if they, the M/homers, feel that they are in the right. The usual reason for moving M/homers on they explained was complaints by the foreign home owners, well they would wouldn't they?


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## kenspain (Oct 14, 2011)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Ken
> 
> Has the law changed in Spain?
> 
> ...



Hi John
 All I can tell you is what we were told this week from the Spanish police that next year you my only sleep in an approved site but can park anywere a car parks this is how my Spanish friends explaned it to me. Even they could not understand it and said they were going to look into it


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## David & Ann (Oct 14, 2011)

John H said:


> Off to South-east Asia this winter (without the motorhome!). Enjoy Xmas in Australia - and if you are in Sydney on Australia Day (26th Jan I think) it is well worth joining in the celebrations. :have fun:



You are correct, 26th Jan: Done it, got the T-Shirt. Done it in Sydney 1997, Melbourne 2003, Perth 2007.


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## n brown (Oct 14, 2011)

that's what i like about the spanish,they probably looked at this setup,saw a family with kids in an old van on a low budget holiday and thought fair play to them.bit more tolerant than some of the comments i've just read.very child freindly along the med,that includes the cops,plus they all understand skint and doing the best with what you've got.name and shame? try looking at things from a perspective other than your own.


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## Byronic (Oct 14, 2011)

n brown said:


> that's what i like about the spanish,they probably looked at this setup,saw a family with kids in an old van on a low budget holiday and thought fair play to them.bit more tolerant than some of the comments i've just read.very child freindly along the med,that includes the cops,plus they all understand skint and doing the best with what you've got.name and shame? try looking at things from a perspective other than your own.



That's all so true you can't apply the exact same response to a situation in Spain to that of the UK. I would also add that there are still strong memories of the poverty and deprivation suffered by the majority of the population in the Franco days, hence an empathy toward those that may be down on their luck.
Still just to lighten things up, I would say I've seen better chairs thrown in Spanish skips than those in the pic!


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## vwalan (Oct 14, 2011)

chairs skips which skips .you never know what you will find in a skip. cant walk past one with out looking in .even here. thousands live out of them . didnt put you as a skip rat ,byronic.found some really good stuff sometimes. mind i used to drivev dustbins and skips so i ,m used to it. hee he. 
found 10 crates of out of date beer two winters ago inportugal. went down a treat.


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## n brown (Oct 14, 2011)

vwalan said:


> chairs skips which skips .you never know what you will find in a skip. cant walk past one with out looking in .even here. thousands live out of them . didnt put you as a skip rat ,byronic.found some really good stuff sometimes. mind i used to drivev dustbins and skips so i ,m used to it. hee he.
> found 10 crates of out of date beer two winters ago inportugal. went down a treat.



that's weird my daughter found the same last year,was it the same lixo bin,jhust outside algoz


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## al n sal (Oct 14, 2011)

n brown said:


> .name and shame? try looking at things from a perspective other than your own.



so if anyone does something (in such a selfish manner, by staying in spots for weeks on end, dumping rubbish, blatantly annoying the locals, whatever reason used to ban wilding), that stops or hinders others who want to quietly wild.. then, you say we should turn a blind eye because they may be hard up or have kids......
no chance...not me...I have kids and  little money the same as most people nowdays, and also struggle to make ends meet,  this doesn't make me want be selfish so I don't see why we should have to put up with it. their antics effect us all and eventually prevent us from roaming and camping..

i've seen m'homers, wrapping rubbish up in tidy bags and then tossing it out the windows....emptying black waste in the wrong places, blatantly camping in carparks with chairs and such, sat outside their vans on chairs on the pavement outside someones house, obviously this was ok because this was a seaside town.....?

Name and shame!!!!


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## Byronic (Oct 14, 2011)

vwalan said:


> chairs skips which skips .you never know what you will find in a skip. cant walk past one with out looking in .even here. thousands live out of them . didnt put you as a skip rat ,byronic.found some really good stuff sometimes. mind i used to drivev dustbins and skips so i ,m used to it. hee he.
> found 10 crates of out of date beer two winters ago inportugal. went down a treat.



Sometimes I think I'm driving a skip. 10 crates of beer eh. I'm definitely missing out on something. Are you sure it was beer! After the first crate went down the pink highway I don't suppose you cared anyway.


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## n brown (Oct 14, 2011)

some strong feelings here,can't quite see how it applies to this lot though,but i understand the sentiment. shame you don't understand my point. feel i have to defend myself here.i've been doing this for years,always integrated with the locals,learnt enough of the language and worked in the area,travelled with my family and never had a problem with the locals,even when i hung the washing out in the trees!.i bet this guy had a relationship with the locals and had taken the trouble to introduce himself,which i don't think most "wild" campers do.    name and shame to who exactly? the one thing "wild" campers need is policing,bit of a conumdrum innit


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## al n sal (Oct 14, 2011)

same reason for replying...feel i have to defend.....

definite conundrum though....real shame that there are so many people ruining it for others by their actions.. never said you have done anything to add to this.

and as far as how it applies...mentioned many times on here before..this is the reason many places ban sleeping over night, so it effects us all, even abroad, although have to admit I don't camp abroad yet, but will when funds allow.


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## n brown (Oct 15, 2011)

fair enough. i have to say most of my time free camping has been abroad, and i have never felt so foreign as i do in my own country,at one time i joined the c and cc and was reduced to showing a photograph of my van to various campsites so tney could decide if i was acceptable[ at that time everybody was terrified of the travellers and my van wasn't a flimsy] so i was refused.i was a working man with 4 kids couldn't get a place in my own country. i probably see things differently to most people on this site because i've just been doing it longer. please have a bit of sympathy for the ones who do it wrong and don't know the rules[what bloody rules ?] i can get annoyed at vans that leave rubbish and upset the locals etc but never felt the need to do much about it,it's a fact of life,some people are crap at being people,doesn't bother me,i survived the cuban crisis i don't get upset at small stuff


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

al n sal said:


> i've seen m'homers, wrapping rubbish up in tidy bags and then tossing it out the windows....emptying black waste in the wrong places, blatantly camping in carparks with chairs and such, sat outside their vans on chairs on the pavement outside someones house, obviously this was ok because this was a seaside town.....?
> 
> Name and shame!!!!



I don't think you'll find most campers disagreeing with your statement. Probably the type of people guilty of these wildcamping "sins", would regard being named and shamed as a badge of honour. Worth remembering that no matter how discreet the site you choose to wildcamp, you will upset someone. Just the fact that you are "getting away" with a free night is enough.
The thing is, in this particular example everyone was jumping to conclusions based on the evidence provided by one photo. Later it was established that the trailer was being pulled by the motorhome. So I suggest that before naming and shaming an individual, more facts and qualifying statements need to be presented than that provided in this particular case, a little more habeas corpus. 
Also could be a bit tough on the new owner of a van subsequently sold on....... hope it's not you and especially not me! 
If we get name and shame we'll have to do checking trawls thru' all the motorhome forums, and heaven help us the caravan forums, before buying a s/hand van!


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## Basil (Oct 15, 2011)

*glass houses and all that.*

What I find a little bit strange is that David&Ann the thread starter also posted that they had stayed for 2 weeks outside a hotel. Not sure if that is a good thing.
While very good wildcamping members and I understand very nice , people in glass houses should not throw stones.
But there again, non of us are perfect.
maybe David should have spoken to the Kontiki owner directly and not posted his number plate on here or edited out the number plate.

Lets live and let live and enjoy camping

see link

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-southern-spain-route-stops-3.html#post147419

Incidentally, I have been on many French Aire like locations and many many French put out tables and chairs. It just depends on what type of aire, some are large and in a field with plenty of room similar to a campsite, others have little space like a car park. You just have to go with the flow and if it feels right then do it, if not, dont.
We have even seen French leaving camping equipment out and going off aire with their camper for a few hours.


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## vwalan (Oct 15, 2011)

hi. cant remember exactly but well north in portugal. was all superbock. some was a new flavoured red berry beer or something. they were clearing out an hotel bar. lots of gold topped super bock as well. actually it was jan that founmd it then phoned us to come quick. purple bob and me had a few night on the cheap. jan didnt drink but there was also loads of dfferent pop stuff as well for her. 
got to keep looking . 
found one skip in malaga looked like some one had cleared a tourist shop . jan had loads of stuff to sell back here on car boots. amazing lot of tat. thats why i need a big truck. ha ha . 
saw a nice three piece suite this year in leather if i could have got it in i would have had it. 
did get two bottles of co,2 from one skip .full. ideal for use with mig welder. 
spain is good skiprat country.


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

Hi Vw, more power to your elbow, reusing/recycling what would otherwise be landfill. The Spanish (and I should know) are probably worse than the English in throwing out perfectly useable stuff.
Most of us are too inhibited (I include myself)to go rifling thru skips.

Incidently there have been a lot of viewings of this thread, (and relatively few posts) perhaps they feel inhibited in responding and giving their views. Maybe they should,  because if naming and shaming were to become entrenched it could well end up being a question of regretting getting what you wish for.


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## David & Ann (Oct 15, 2011)

Basil said:


> What I find a little bit strange is that David&Ann the thread starter also posted that they had stayed for 2 weeks outside a hotel. Not sure if that is a good thing.
> While very good wildcamping members and I understand very nice , people in glass houses should not throw stones.
> But there again, non of us are perfect.
> maybe David should have spoken to the Kontiki owner directly and not posted his number plate on here or edited out the number plate.
> ...


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## David & Ann (Oct 15, 2011)

Please note I have deleted the Start thread post because of unforeseen circumstances.


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## Basil (Oct 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> Basil said:
> 
> 
> > What I find a little bit strange is that David&Ann the thread starter also posted that they had stayed for 2 weeks outside a hotel. Not sure if that is a good thing.
> ...


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## David & Ann (Oct 15, 2011)

Basil said:


> David & Ann said:
> 
> 
> > Hi David, Thanks for reply, no need to delete on my behalf, I was just thinking of the owner of the Kontiki. Thanks also for clearing up a few questions issues, maybe the full facts and information could have been put alongside the origional post?
> ...


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## Basil (Oct 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> No offence taken. You have every right to express your views. I should have been more diplomatic and not displayed the Reg: plate. Further more. I really would not know how to have removed or hidden the plate as I happen to be a dummy with a PC.☺☺☺ See you in Oz between Dec 2011and April 2012☺☺☺



Thanks David, i think that most of us have to struggle with a PC at one time or another,and most of us including me put our big foot in our mouths sometime:have fun:


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## Viktor (Oct 15, 2011)

Just open the photo with Paint - found in Start/All Programs/Accessories  - click on the Rubber symbol and
use the mouse to wipe out the reg plate and click save.  Then you can upload it with no probs.


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## John H (Oct 15, 2011)

Byronic said:


> .... in this particular example everyone was jumping to conclusions based on the evidence provided by one photo. Later it was established that the trailer was being pulled by the motorhome. So I suggest that before naming and shaming an individual, more facts and qualifying statements need to be presented than that provided in this particular case, a little more habeas corpus.



I am not sure what difference it makes that the trailer was being pulled by the motorhome. The Spanish rules are very clear (unlike ours!) and they state that parking is ok but camping (including getting out tables and chairs, awnings etc) is not outside specific sites. It took the Spanish a long time to wrest what amounts to permission to wildcamp out of the authorities and you will often see Spanish motorhomes proudly displaying "parked not camped" signs in their windows. Idiots (and I make no apology for the term) like the one in the original photo make it more likely that the rules will be toughened up and those of us innocently "parked" will be moved on. Thus if the rest of us can demonstrate that we disapprove of this kind of activity as much as the local residents we stand more chance of being left in peace. "Name and shame" gets my vote (and the red herring about what happens if the van is sold on is nullified by simply putting a date on the photo!).


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

Of course it matters if the motorhome was pulling the trailer tent or not, because until it was confirmed that the motorcaravan was actually towing the thing, then the camping paraphenalia may not have belonged to the motorcaravan. The motorcaravan may have been simply parking. Read the earlier posts.
I don't think I would like to be denying to all and sundry that I was not the owner at the time of a date stamped "name and shame" website entry.


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## John H (Oct 15, 2011)

Byronic said:


> Of course it matters if the motorhome was pulling the trailer tent or not, because until it was confirmed that the motorcaravan was actually towing the thing, then the camping paraphenalia may not have belonged to the motorcaravan. The motorcaravan may have been simply parking. Read the earlier posts.
> I don't think I would like to be denying to all and sundry that I was not the owner at the time of a date stamped "name and shame" website entry.



I think the original point was (and David will correct me if I'm wrong) that it was the trailer tent and those who were associated with it that were the idiots, whether or not the motorhome was part of that set-up. It would therefore be the owners of the trailer tent who should be named and shamed - irrespective of the position of the motorhome. But as we now know, David was aware of the connection between the two from the start.

Further, there is no need to deny anything - all you need is the documentation showing the date you acquired the vehicle - end of story.


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

Come on David correct him.
I would not like to deny anything, let alone feel compelled to carry documents for such a reason as disproving ownership at a certain time,unless the law requires me to.


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## David & Ann (Oct 15, 2011)

Viktor said:


> Just open the photo with Paint - found in Start/All Programs/Accessories  - click on the Rubber symbol and
> use the mouse to wipe out the reg plate and click save.  Then you can upload it with no probs.



Thanks Viktor. I will try that, in future.


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## Basil (Oct 15, 2011)

Byronic said:


> Come on David correct him.
> I would not like to deny anything, let alone feel compelled to carry documents for such a reason as disproving ownership at a certain time,unless the law requires me to.



Agree, give the guy a break, non of us are perfect:have fun:


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## scampa (Oct 15, 2011)

I don't really see any point in starting a "name and shame" policy in cases like this.  Surely (we hope!) anyone going against the sensible wildcamping guidelines wouldn't be one of our members, so wouldn't be reading these posts anyway?

Maybe we could use photo's like the one originally posted (but with the reg number deleted) in a more positive way though, by posting them in a separate thread to be used as a guide to "how not to do it"?

As well as being a reminder for any new members, it would also show others that we try to promote "responsible" wildcamping.

If only the irresponsible ones who spoil things for the rest of us would display a sticker saying "NOT a member of wildcamping.co.uk" ??    (I would vote for a curvy "W" with a red diagonal line through it :lol-053.


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## al n sal (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm probably going to get shouted at for linking this here and yes it is, minor sort of, obviously not destroying the area and obviously not dumping rubbish...but, this is being seen, by a lot......pics shown, kind a name and shame really. is this right? or not? will this kind a thing speed up us being banned from good places?

I probably could find worse to post, but kinda puts the idea out...yes No? from what I've read on here and other forums then yes, or should I buy a tent.

Why Do Councils Ban Motorhome Parking?

better hide now then...:lol-053:


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## n brown (Oct 15, 2011)

ok let's say we go the name and shame route.who decides what photos go on it?who decides where the line is drawn between hanging a damp towel over the mirror and hanging out your washing?a comittee,or do we vote in a council to make these decisions for us.if i've been working or driving all day,do i have to worry about sitting outside my van soaking up a few rays in case someones lurking in the bushes with a camera? has anybody asked any of the locals their opinion? i have.


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## al n sal (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm not actually after an official name and shame, forum or official page, but after hearing many, many people moaning and groaning and often rightly about how a few selfish people who, act in an anti social way, (now I'm not talking about, taking in a few rays here ,I mean setting up camp on the pavement outside someones house. i've seen it the householders where well impressed, dumping black waste, rubbish etc etc, then why shouldn't we if we have the evidence show it. the above is just trying to prove a point.

believe it or not I'm a believer in live and let live, but not if it impacts on me. the same as everyone who posts there thoughts and personal opinions on here i guess


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## n brown (Oct 15, 2011)

i'll reiterate my point;where do you draw the line? you're giving examples that are all obviously terrible[did you see teresa mays speech the other day?] but can you remember the fool on that other site that thought people with tatty vans should be discriminated againsfor lowering the tone? i don't like this thread,next thing i'll be arrested for not having decals on my van.once these balls get rolling a lot of harmless people can be affected,i'd normally dismiss this kind of talk as twaddle but it's more serious than that


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## vwalan (Oct 15, 2011)

i think we should name and shame folk that use campsites . or pay for parking etc .


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

al n sal said:


> I'm not actually after an official name and shame, forum or official page, but after hearing many, many people moaning



If you think naming and shaming would have a positive effect on these shameless herberts then you could/should make a unilateral decision to do so. My point is that you must be sure of your facts and possibly consider recourse to a lawyer just in case you're wrong.
I've certainly jumped to the wrong conclusion at times, just glad it wasn't easy to post a name and shame on the web.


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## al n sal (Oct 15, 2011)

whether or not you like this thread or not, I'm afraid these thoughts are about, and I'm sure i'm not the only one. I'm not going to debate whether a van is tatty or not, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

a group of teenagers decided to run through one of our estates.. hedge hopping, not serious acts, could of been a lot worse, but they didn't jump high enough and destroyed a couple of hedges and fences on more than one occasion, the owners then had to replace, more than once. in a community debate on action, a few, said your being stuffy stop picking on the young, its not their fault they have nothing else to do.......one argument was shouldn't we just have them arrested and fined, etc etc.(criminal record and everything else that follows or, name and shame, may work on some others may not), last argument, catch em and give em a damn good kicking, the latter definitely not a good one. no answer reached apart from police.  

I personally don't know where any line should be drawn, i suppose if i had a picture to post then as I am 'Soley' responsible for my actions (ring any bells) then i would have to decide whether or not to do it, I suppose.

as far as twaddle, yes your probably right. there will never be a dedicated place to 'Name and Shame' because of obvious laws. how ever going back to David's question, don't know if i should have posted this or not? I replied in post 6 yes, and I still think it right as it showed what a few are doing to reduce our available places to wild.

when i wild, I can honestly say that i don't stay anywhere more than a night, I don''t dump rubbish, or anything else, infact when were out we go to (almost silly lengths) not to be noticed. but thats us.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 16, 2011)

I'm a little ashamed. but only a little, of myself at reacting so quickly to the published picture.   Not that I temper my disapproval in any way - just that I'm uncomfortable with the naming and shaming;  in short ridiculing other people who disagree with my opinions - even though I hold those opinions strongly.   It is one thing to disagree and make my disapproval known especially to those I disagree with;  it is another to hold others up to the public in a bullying way.   I try to live always with the knowledge that I may be wrong;  that there may be good reasons, emergencies, breakdowns, changes in public perception of what is permissible, who knows what,  for people to act in ways I dislike.  I know that, often enough, I'm out of step with many who become irritable with my opinions which seem very reasonable to me and I quickly lose patience with those who will not accept my opinions as being equally valid as theirs.

I know what the question is but I don't know the answer.   We can't make people use sites like this and I don't know any other way to educate them.


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

*Seen worse*

I have seen a lot worse on some French aires, even a few times have seen French leave out tables & chairs and take the van off aire. Also leaving camping equipment out while emptying waste and refilling water. The latter two I accept is ok.
Myself I do put out table and chairs if on a large aire AS DO THE FRENCH but there is a time and a place.
When in France do as the French and when in Spain do as the Spanish. The Spanish also put out table and chairs, it just depends on where you are.
All this Mr perfect is a load of crap! non of us are perfect are we?
name and shame? No way!


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

It seems I might be in a minority here and I must say that I am surprised at the attitude of some posters. Like Tom, I would never want to name and shame over a matter of differences of opinion but this is not what I am talking about. The rules in Spain are clear; the trailer tent was clearly breaking those rules and in so doing was potentially making life difficult for those of us who obey the rules. Let me put it another way - if you saw somebody throwing a brick through a window, would you just turn away and not report it? To me the picture is as clear as it could be - those who break the rules deserve to be reported and take whatever punishment is associated with the offence. To let it pass means that there are inevitable calls from the locals to ban everything and we end up with the motorhoming equivalent of the Dangerous Dogs Act. I am a great believer in letting people do what they want as long as they are not harming others. This idiot's actions were causing potential harm to others (including me, since I regularly use that particular wilding spot!). And it is particularly sensitive when you are in someone else's country. Can you imagine the reaction if the culprit had been Romanian and the car park in Cheltenham?


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## al n sal (Oct 16, 2011)

Basil said:


> I have seen a lot worse on some French aires, even a few times have seen French leave out tables & chairs and take the van off aire. Also leaving camping equipment out while emptying waste and refilling water. The latter two I accept is ok.
> Myself I do put out table and chairs if on a large aire AS DO THE FRENCH but there is a time and a place.
> When in France do as the French and when in Spain do as the Spanish. The Spanish also put out table and chairs, it just depends on where you are.
> All this Mr perfect is a load of crap! non of us are perfect are we?
> name and shame? No way!



I agree with the 1st part of your post, however, Mr Perfect crap..:lol-053:....not in the slightest......i believe I am considerate person. 

I'll tell you something else,  I believe in chain gang punishment, Doing hard time, should be applied over here too, get rid of this mamby pamby, slap wrist rubbish we do.and no It won't stop all the crime, however they will be punished for their crimes instead of as is the case with a lot of repeat offenders, it will reduce them going inside to have a laugh with their mates.


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## n brown (Oct 16, 2011)

blimey,some strong feelings here,think i'll stop worrying about having my photo took and start worrying about a drive-by!


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

al n sal said:


> I agree with the 1st part of your post, however, Mr Perfect crap..:lol-053:....not in the slightest......i believe I am considerate person.
> 
> I'll tell you something else,  I believe in chain gang punishment, Doing hard time, should be applied over here too, get rid of this mamby pamby, slap wrist rubbish we do.and no It won't stop all the crime, however they will be punished for their crimes instead of as is the case with a lot of repeat offenders, it will reduce them going inside to have a laugh with their mates.



No person is perfect although a few think they are. They never admit to doing anything against the rules, not even putting out a chair & table when everybody around them will.
I also agree about the mamby pamby, sharp punishment is required for the yobs and criminals.
But name & shame over a chair or other minor infringement? Some people need to get a life.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

Basil said:


> But name & shame over a chair or other minor infringement? Some people need to get a life.



It is precisely because I have a "life" as you put it that I object to the actions of others that might stop my enjoyment of that life - and, yes, we all break rules from time to time and we have all put tables and chairs outside from time to time but this particualr case is not to do with the odd chair - it is to do with a blatent contravention of the Spanish rules about camping. The Spanish are among the few that actually give us the right to park up (as opposed to the more negative not banning it as in the UK) and there an increasing number of aires in Spain for us to use. I don't want to see anything happen that might reverse that tolerance - and we all know that it can be reversed very easily - especially if they take the view that a stroppy foreigner is giving them the finger.


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## Byronic (Oct 16, 2011)

Basil said:


> Myself I do put out table and chairs if on a large aire AS DO THE FRENCH but there is a time and a place.
> When in France do as the French and when in Spain do as the Spanish. The Spanish also put out table and chairs,



I'm sure most of us on this thread if not the the site would agree with the drift of what you say. Putting out a table and chairs seems a reasonable custom to emulate.

 But out there, out in the diaspora there are a breed of campers (not only campers of course) who interpret your statement their way, as I'm sure anyone who camps overseas is well aware of.

Last year whilst wildcamping on the Spanish costa, as a fellow wilder nearby was about to leave I noticed his bulging rubbish bag sitting behind his rear wheel. I reminded him of this, politely. He said "the Spanish do,so do I". I then said to him not so politely "don't you have standards of your own" whereupon he told me to "go forth and multiply" or words to that effect. I dumped his bag for him.

Not that long after that event another van pulled in, the couple got out carrying a full rubbish bag and walked away, I was about 50m behind them, the woman threw the bag on a small pile of dumped rubbish bags. This time on my return I picked up the bag and tied it on their windscreen wiper, I thought they might get the message, afraid not. On their return they threw it on the ground and drove off.

 Another wildsite, this time a camper dumped his cassette no more than 20m from their nearest neighbour. I mentioned this to him telling him that there was a saniamiento not far away, he just thru his hands up and said "ah this is Spain" 

I've witnessed plenty of other similar experiences over the years, but last year I decided to say or do something.


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

Byronic said:


> I'm sure most of us on this thread if not the the site would agree with the drift of what you say. Putting out a table and chairs seems a reasonable custom to emulate.
> 
> But out there, out in the diaspora there are a breed of campers (not only campers of course) who interpret your statement their way, as I'm sure anyone who camps overseas is well aware of.
> 
> ...



Now you are talking of real scumbags, the sort of people you would not wish to be anywhere near to or even have on the same aire. 
But we have to draw the line somewhere  and not go naming and shaming for every little offence.
A line has to be drawn but where you draw that line would be open to each and every different interpretation.


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

John H said:


> It is precisely because I have a "life" as you put it that I object to the actions of others that might stop my enjoyment of that life - and, yes, we all break rules from time to time and we have all put tables and chairs outside from time to time but this particualr case is not to do with the odd chair - it is to do with a blatent contravention of the Spanish rules about camping. The Spanish are among the few that actually give us the right to park up (as opposed to the more negative not banning it as in the UK) and there an increasing number of aires in Spain for us to use. I don't want to see anything happen that might reverse that tolerance - and we all know that it can be reversed very easily - especially if they take the view that a stroppy foreigner is giving them the finger.



To be fair John I have just had another look at the photograph and I must say that I would not be camping there as too many residents would be looking out and seeing everything that you do, I like it much quieter than that. 
In mitigation for the camper in question, he is parked up nice and neat and tidy, looking a respectible outfit. I have seen quite a few motorhomes making far more of a mess and taking up much more room.
We don't know the full facts and we probably never will, maybe it was just a quick stop over and he needed the trailer opened up as lots of kids. Maybe he was there for a month. That would be completley different and certainly frowned upon. We just don't know,the facts so how are we able to be judge jury and excecutioner?
When the first post was put on here there was no information at all. A little more came out later, but still not enough to be certain.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

Basil said:


> To be fair John I have just had another look at the photograph and I must say that I would not be camping there as too many residents would be looking out and seeing everything that you do, I like it much quieter than that.
> In mitigation for the camper in question, he is parked up nice and neat and tidy, looking a respectible outfit. I have seen quite a few motorhomes making far more of a mess and taking up much more room.
> We don't know the full facts and we probably never will, maybe it was just a quick stop over and he needed the trailer opened up as lots of kids. Maybe he was there for a month. That would be completley different and certainly frowned upon. We just don't know,the facts so how are we able to be judge jury and excecutioner?
> When the first post was put on here there was no information at all. A little more came out later, but still not enough to be certain.



Of course, we all have different views of what makes a good overnight spot but the picture gives a slightly misleading impression of the place - the apartments are not quite as close as they look and in the other direction is the beach. It is actually a very quiet spot - in winter, anyway - and much used by sensible wilders, which is why I get angry when somebody abuses a facility. Apart from the harbour (where you are allowed to park for 24 hours and which is another good spot) it is the only beach-front spot within the urban area of Almeria which is available to us. As for the details of this particular camper, I believe that David said they turned up late at night and slept there til the next morning so if the police had been feeling stroppy they could easily have knocked on all the doors and moved everybody on (despite the rule allowing you to park they often use the excuse of people smugglers using these spots so move you on "for your own safety"). And, far from jumping to conclusions, until David pointed out that the trailer and the motorhome were connected I had made a post that suggested these people might be there legitimately because there is often a legitimately parked trailer associated with a childrens roundabout in that car park at fiesta times.


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

John, if they arrived late and did not stay too late on the following morning, then I cannot see too much wrong with that. ( But that is my own opinion) I presume if the Guarda did they would have moved them on.
I know not completley correct but then what about the A Framers who park long ways and take up the room of about 5 motorhomes. 
We do have to be a little tolerant.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

Basil said:


> John, if they arrived late and did not stay too late on the following morning, then I cannot see too much wrong with that. ( But that is my own opinion) I presume if the Guarda did they would have moved them on.
> I know not completley correct but then what about the A Framers who park long ways and take up the room of about 5 motorhomes.
> We do have to be a little tolerant.



You can be sure that the Guardia will have noted the presence in that particular spot and it might well be used, alongside other "infringements", in any future move to change the rules, so even if this particualr guy got away with it it doesn't mean no harm was done to our cause. As far as the A-framers are concerned, it has been pointed out before that A-frames are illegal in Spain and the authorities have been particularly sharp in cracking down on that particular rule in recent times!


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

John H said:


> As far as the A-framers are concerned, it has been pointed out before that A-frames are illegal in Spain and the authorities have been particularly sharp in cracking down on that particular rule in recent times!


I was talking in general and not just Spain
Sorry I should have made it clearer.


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## Viktor (Oct 16, 2011)

Personally I don't think anything is gained by trying to name and shame anyone on here.

1.  I doubt they are a member of this site as everyone seems to be on the same page regarding
standards of conduct.

2. They won't ever see it as they probably have little interest in joining a site like this.


Would I take action by approaching another camper for their conduct?  No, but I might photograph
it discreetly in case plod or someone else with some authority came around and tried to accuse me
of littering.  I wouldn't fancy a confrontation and them remembering me and possibly deciding my van would look better
with a few extra scratches on the paintwork should we ever meet again.


Would I dispose of their rubbish bag?  Absolutely.  If I was seen to do that, then any witnesses or
potential complainers probably would tell the story in a more favourable light. 


<<if you saw somebody throwing a brick through a window, would you just turn away and not report it?>>
Depends on the circumstances.  I would probably lean towards minding my own business.  It might be the
tail end of an argument in which this person had their windows put in by the other earlier when there were no
witnesses.

Personally my opinion is that we should remember that 'littlest said soonest mended' and concentrate on our
own conduct.  Nothing that you say or do will ever persuade another person who just doesn't care.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

Viktor said:


> I doubt they are a member of this site as everyone seems to be on the same page regarding
> standards of conduct.
> 
> <<if you saw somebody throwing a brick through a window, would you just turn away and not report it?>>
> ...



I wish that your first statement were true but unfortunately it isn't - we are not all on the same page. Some of us are on pages that see nothing wrong with commiting criminal damage in order to wildcamp where they wish.

As for the "window" are you really saying it is ok for people to take the law into their own hands? I cannot accept that view.

You are spot on with the last point, though!


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

John H said:


> I wish that your first statement were true but unfortunately it isn't - we are not all on the same page. Some of us are on pages that see nothing wrong with commiting criminal damage in order to wildcamp where they wish.
> 
> As for the "window" are you really saying it is ok for people to take the law into their own hands? I cannot accept that view.
> 
> You are spot on with the last point, though!


John, where is the criminal damage with the Kontiki? I think we would all be against any damage.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

​


Basil said:


> John, where is the criminal damage with the Kontiki? I think we would all be against any damage.



Sorry, this time it is me who should have been clearer. I was not referring to this particular thread but to things that have been said elsewhere on this forum about what is and what is not an acceptable standard for us to follow.


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## Basil (Oct 16, 2011)

John H said:


> ​
> Sorry, this time it is me who should have been clearer. I was not referring to this particular thread but to things that have been said elsewhere on this forum about what is and what is not an acceptable standard for us to follow.



Thanks John, I think we have all made our points and as Viktor has said, we are on the same sheet or most of the time, on this thread at least.


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## Viktor (Oct 16, 2011)

<<I wish that your first statement were true but unfortunately it isn't - we are not all on the same page. Some of us are on pages that see nothing wrong with commiting criminal damage in order to wildcamp where they wish.>>

True John, I cannot speak for all our members but I believe it would cover most of us, and probably all of the full members.  I wasn't refering to wild campers in general.

<<As for the "window" are you really saying it is ok for people to take the law into their own hands? I cannot accept that view.>>

No John, I said I would lean towards minding my own business, and it would depend on the circumstances.


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## vwalan (Oct 16, 2011)

hi .the guardia dont change any rules . they just try to enforce them. as for a frames the letter from the interiour minister of spain quite plainly says a frames arent alowed by the spanish . but if legal in country of origine you can pass through as a visitor . use the eu regs as he says. 
as for the pic on this thread its abit silly leaving chairs like that but then lots do. visit any wild camp in spain . you see cooking outside etc . i regularly try togiv advice to these sort of people but get told to sex and travel. 
there used to be a ruling that caravans and trucks can stop for one night just about anywhere in spain. yes it gets abused. thats what rules are for. my experiance is dont leave things outside or chuck them in quick. keep a copy of pere navarro olivella,s instructions and stand your ground . i have been known to let the guardia have a copy for referance . they brought it back nextday and said thankyou very much enjoy your stay. seen same one next year he laughs about it now.


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## al n sal (Oct 16, 2011)

n brown said:


> blimey,some strong feelings here,think i'll stop worrying about having my photo took and start worrying about a drive-by!



:lol-049: Nah, no worries, drive by's are only for curb crawlers:drive::lol-053:


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## John H (Oct 17, 2011)

vwalan said:


> hi .the guardia dont change any rules . they just try to enforce them. as for a frames the letter from the interiour minister of spain quite plainly says a frames arent alowed by the spanish . but if legal in country of origine you can pass through as a visitor . use the eu regs as he says.



You are correct that the Guardia don't change the rules, only enforce them (as with any police force) but if people are looking to change the rules then they are likely to ask the Guardia to gather evidence. That is why I suggested that the trailer-owner may have got away with it but at the same time might have potentially made things more difficult for the rest of us in the long-term.

You are also correct about the EU law relating to A-frames but there is a great deal of dispute as to under what circumstances they are legal in the UK, so if we can't make up our minds then don't expect any sympathy from the Spanish (or French) police.In the meantime, many motorhomers are being stopped and told to unhitch their cars.


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