# 1st day of hols.... Not a good start



## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Firstly praise God that there's not been an accident... We're travelling from Nottingham to Scotland and due to an upset 7month old baby we decided to stop last night in Ripon (thanks to the wildcamping poi's). 

Started off this morn and after half a mile had to stop.... Rear left wheel almost fallen off! Two of 5 bolts sheared off so tightened the rest and limped to ATS (luckily only 1 mile away). 

The wheels are brand new and only fitted last week... Either over or under tightened. I wasn't warned or told to check after 15 miles (standard ATS advice apparently). 

ATS can't repair so now getting recovery to teeside :-( Mercedes to have a go but may have to wait until Wednesday! For parts.... Hub is seized on... So annoyed at Tanvic tyres who fitted the wheels.... They didn't apologise... Just referred me to the small print on the invoice! (eg check nuts after 30min). Disgraceful. 

Just thankful we pulled off the motorway last night when we did! :-(


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

Have you never had new Wheels / Tyres on a vehicle before ?

It`s standard procedure to Re-check the wheel nuts after a short run.


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## yorkslass (Aug 24, 2013)

very annoying, but in the scheme of things your all ok ,and that"s what matters.hope you enjoy the rest of your hols.:camper:


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## Robmac (Aug 24, 2013)

I was told recently that whenever you use a spare wheel, check for rust in the recesses that the nuts tighten into. There is often rust caused by spray from the road in the case of underslung spare wheels.
If you find rust, there is little chance of the wheel not coming undone apparently!


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 24, 2013)

Oo nasty! 

We lost the offside rear wheel last year cos the bolts had come loose. We check them regularly now!


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> Have you never had new Wheels / Tyres on a vehicle before ?
> 
> It`s standard procedure to Re-check the wheel nuts after a short run.


I know! It seems so obvious! 
But no, I ve never been told and don't work in the motor industry... I rely on experts /professionals to inform me if I need to do something following their work!


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

Silverbull said:


> I know! It seems so obvious!
> But no, I ve never been told and don't work in the motor industry... I rely on experts /professionals to inform me if I need to do something following their work!





Right OK, 

Now this isn`t meant to be facetious or nasty but do you know how to check the Oil and Coolant Levels ?


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

yorkslass said:


> very annoying, but in the scheme of things your all ok ,and that"s what matters.hope you enjoy the rest of your hols.:camper:


Absolutely! We've been very positive about it and if we need to find a local b&b so be it  one of the beauties of heading our with no itinerary.. Just a vague plan (and of course poi's) is that you go where the wind takes you and there's no 'plan'  to get disrupted. Just upset with the tyre company but that comes mostly from how much of a 'close call' we've had from a serious motorway accident. 

The very fact that ATS as standard issue a bright yellow warning card with torque levels written on, suggests to me that they either have a very good, pro active risk management department or that there's been incidents of people's wheels coming off and the cards are the result..? Even after being told a bout the small print 'disclaimer' as they puts it, I had to search for it! Something so so so important should at least warrant a bold statement (themes no missing the fact they do a free air con check!). 

Just been told the alloy wheel is ruined where the bolts have rubbed and rattled the holes out.


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> Right OK,
> 
> Now this isn`t meant to be facetious or nasty but do you know how to check the Oil and Coolant Levels ?



Yes! I honestly don't think anyone has EVER mentioned to check wheel bolts in the ~15yrs I've been driving! Normally I'm bang on the case of maintenance and being prepared! It's certainly obvious to me now but I've just phoned my dad who has many more years experience on me but also no mechanical knowledge and he says he didn't know to check... Plus pointed out that if torque levels are so important, how is the average Joe supposed to check with out over or under tightening said bolts.... Surly a recommendation to return next day for a check is not only a potential for extra work but indeed the responsible thing to do?!


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## hextal (Aug 24, 2013)

Still sounds iffy.

Regardless of the small print i suspect had there been an incident as a result the garage would have had the book throw at em.

Just cos something is in the small print doesn't make it correct or legal. Tort comes before contract and so id suggest duty of care would be the focus.


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## Robmac (Aug 24, 2013)

ATS always give me a reminder to get the nuts re-torqued within 30 miles. They give a large reminder card and advise that you can get it done free at any ATS branch.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 24, 2013)

That sounds painful, Rob :scared: :lol-061:


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Spot the difference... 

 http://db.tt/kgOTijfU

Vs

http://db.tt/PKh2lI08

(not sure how to embed photos here...?)


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## Robmac (Aug 24, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> That sounds painful, Rob :scared: :lol-061:



You get to like it after a while Marie. I go back once a week.


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## hextal (Aug 24, 2013)

This is going to sound like a stupid question but if the things have been torqued up correctly why would they need to get re-torqued?

I have a single nut holding the back wheel of my bike in place.  If I suspected that it could work itself loose after 30 miles I don't think i'd want to go out on it (or more realistically I'd drill the nut and stick a split-pin / wire through it).  Don't get me wrong, when the wheels go on I check them over and over and over, but then that's it.  

At the risk of arguing both sides - whenever a garage goes near it to do any work, the first thing I do when I get home is to go over anything they may have touched with a torque wrench.  But that's just because I work on the assumption that they may have made a mistake with the torque settings.


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## molly 2 (Aug 24, 2013)

*wheels*

Hmm SO if you take your car in for service you are expected to check  you wheel nuts  after 30 mins .I don,t think so .even if you did they would proberbly be over tight as some garages  zap them tight with an air wrench  .A good garage will use a torque wrench  . but do tyre companys ever ? or do they on large vehicles. I wonder what the reply would be if they were asked what torque setting was used .


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## Robmac (Aug 24, 2013)

molly 2 said:


> Hmm SO if you take your car in for service you are expected to check  you wheel nuts  after 30 mins .I don,t think so .even if you did they would proberbly be over tight as they usually  zap them tight with an air wrench  .A good garage will use a torque wrench  . bot do tyre companys ?



If they have removed the wheels - yes.


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## edina (Aug 24, 2013)

When I last had tyres fitted at ATS they tightened the nuts up with an air gun and then went round them with a torque wrench. Before I left they told me to pop back in a couple of days and they would check the torque for me.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

hextal said:


> At the risk of arguing both sides - whenever a garage goes near it to do any work, the first thing I do when I get home is to go over anything they may have touched with a torque wrench.  But that's just because I work on the assumption that they may have made a mistake with the torque settings.





Absolutely nothing wrong with that what so ever.

Whenever my car goes into the garage especially for service the first thing i do when i go to pick it up is to lift the bonnet and check everything
before i start the engine and leave the dealers forecourt.

If the wheels have been off i check them when i get home.

The 2 worst incidents and both were at the Fiat garage were :-

1,  The oil filler cap was missing. Engine bay covered in oil and had to be Steam Cleaned. ( 12 month old car first service )

2,   The coolant level so low there wasn`t even any in the header tank after having the Anti-Freeze changed.

I`ve even had the Service Manager come out to ask what i was doing because it had just been serviced and everything was right.

I just carry on with my checks because once you`ve left the dealers it can be a nightmare to prove anything.


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## RoaminRog (Aug 24, 2013)

If you were riding around for any length of time with loose wheelnuts, the chances are that you may have elongated the holes in the wheel, and that depressingly could mean new wheels I'm afraid. Fingers crossed eh.


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Ok quick update..! Merc main dealers have sorted it... Disk damaged during removal so new pair plus pads and 3hrs labour.... Main thing is we'll be back on the road shortly!  sadly wife well and truly shaken and doesn't want to go far.... Also only bought 4 alloys so going to have to run on one steelie for 2 weeks! Not ideal!


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

RoaminRog said:


> If you were riding around for any length of time with loose wheelnuts, the chances are that you may have elongated the holes in the wheel, and that depressingly could mean new wheels I'm afraid. Fingers crossed eh.



You're right... Brand new alloy damaged beyond repair


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## 666jw (Aug 24, 2013)

Silverbull said:


> You're right... Brand new alloy damaged beyond repair



Maybe on seeing all your costs, the wheel suppliers may meet you quarterway ! and supply you with at least a replacement alloy. Surely they can return the wheel themselves.... Put it down as cracked perhaps ?


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## REC (Aug 24, 2013)

runnach said:


> Have to agree with hextal, in all the years I have been driving, I have never heard, nor had any reminder to re-torque up wheels after new tyres or, wheel off, for any reason.
> 
> One for the motor vehicles boys on Monday!!



Now I am panicing too, had new tyres fitted a couple of weeks ago on our ordinary vehicle, which has got alloy wheels. We have NEVER been told to check torque. The rule of thumb for small print is usually what the "ordinary man in the street" would be expected to know. And I think you have a case that the damage would have been prevented if correct VERBAL advise was given after fitting. I would definetely go back and argue your case even threaten small claims court if they are being difficult.

We will be back at the tyre place on Tues!


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## iampatman (Aug 24, 2013)

When we bought our Motorhome from a dealer 4 months ago it came with a full MOT. One of the advisories on the test referred to the tyres. The dealers, fair play to them, replaced all 4 tyres which I thought was pretty reasonable of them. At no time did the dealer advise me to check the wheel nuts after 30 minutes/miles. Nor would I expect him to. Should he have done? We've done a few hundred miles since and the wheels haven't dropped off. (Yes, I'll check them asap)
Pat.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

Silverbull said:


> You're right... Brand new alloy damaged beyond repair





Who said it was beyond repair ?   You`d be surprised what can be done these days.

Make sure you get the Alloy back and contact a Alloy Wheel Repair company to see what they say, there`s plenty out there

It`s a good side line for the lads in the garage, they take them to the Scrap Yard and they fetch good money.


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## Silverbull (Aug 24, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> Who said it was beyond repair ?   You`d be surprised what can be done these days.
> 
> Make sure you get the Alloy back and contact a Alloy Wheel Repair company to see what they say, there`s plenty out there
> 
> It`s a good side line for the lads in the garage, they take them to the Scrap Yard and they fetch good money.



Good point... May not be beyond repair... Certainly not cracked... Just slightly "bruised" around the edges of the bolt holes... We'll see I guess. I'll probably order a replacement then see if it can be repaired properly /safely and then used as a spare. 

From numerous conversations today, I believe we've been let down by the tyre fitters (btw I supplied the alloys... They supplied and fitted the tyres). We're going to try and focus on having a nice time now hopefully and look at all options on our return.... The guys at Mercedes are going to write me a full report with their findings. Thanks everyone here... Been good to share! 

Hopefully (wife permitting) off to Glentress this evening  :camper:


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

runnach said:


> Repaired a few alloys over the years (welding) no failures to date. :dance:




My point exactly ..............  if the damage isn`t too severe it might be repairable.

Technology and techniques have come on a lot over the years.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 24, 2013)

runnach said:


> You forgot to add, skill too :cheers:




Sorry, i do apologise and beg your forgiveness kind Sir ..................... LOL

Will you please still let me into Scotland in a couple of weeks when we come up ?  

Like they say you can have the best equipment in the world but if you don`t know how to use it ............ it`s bloody useless.


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## didds (Aug 24, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> Have you never had new Wheels / Tyres on a vehicle before ?
> 
> It`s standard procedure to Re-check the wheel nuts after a short run.



Y'know...  I've been driving over 30 years...  had new tyres fitted umpteen times.  I have NEVER EVER been told to check the wheelnuts by ANYONE that has ever done it !!!  That includes national mobs,, local independents, the lot.

How bloody scary is that??!!



didds


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## DRoader (Aug 25, 2013)

This is a relatively new thing that coincides with the whole growth of the insurance and legal culture from the US. It's all about them covering their arse and us paying for things we don't need.


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## Covey (Aug 25, 2013)

Having read on this Forum of a twin wheel owner who parted company with one of his wheel sets near Irun in Spain, I bought a torque wrench and associated sockets for the deep recessed Merc wheel nuts.

Just before I left the UK earlier this month I had The Beast serviced by a Mercedes Commercial Dealer and when I went to pick up the vehicle, there was a large yellow sticker on the dashboard covering the speedo saying that the wheels had been removed and that I should recheck the torque settings for the wheel nuts within 75 miles and telling me what the torque setting should be.

Reading this thread reminds me that it being Sunday, it is the appointed day of the week for sundry vehicle checks including checking the torque settings on the wheel nuts.

However, it is raining here in southern Holland so perhaps Monday is a more propitious day!!!!


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## Sparks (Aug 25, 2013)

Post Deleted


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## gaz2676 (Aug 25, 2013)

DRoader said:


> This is a relatively new thing that coincides with the whole growth of the insurance and legal culture from the US. It's all about them covering their arse and us paying for things we don't need.



this is not a new thing or craze or firms covering their arse
check yer wheel nuts 
ask any hgv driver whos worth his salt


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## Robmac (Aug 25, 2013)

Sparks said:


> It's no good checking the torque AFTER they've been tightened with an air gun.



Surely it is worth torquing after provided they are not overtightened.


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## gaz2676 (Aug 25, 2013)

replaced wheels need to be run for a min of 50 mile and then rechecked after they have settled even a slightly loose nut as mentioned in an earlier post ...elongates or ovals the recess and the  effect can be worse on new wheels or repainted ones as the thickness of the paint gets worn thru ....but....overtightning can be as bad as you strech the stud and can weaken it and it can sheer 
after many many yrs hgv driving ive seen many situations with wheels coming off thru lack of maintenance 
iv picked trailers up in yards went to check nuts put the bar on an the weight of the bar tightens them....some were that slack
it does happen it takes five mins to do


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## maingate (Aug 25, 2013)

Robmac said:


> Surely it is worth torquing after provided they are not overtightened.



I am afraid sparks is correct Rob.

It's acceptable for a lazy mechanic or tyre fitter to run the nuts up as a short cut. However, how do you know if they are torqued correctly if they are banged up hard.

The correct way is to hand tighten the nuts/bolts. Nip them up in a set pattern with a spanner/socket by hand and then torque them (again, in a set pattern). 

You can get away with a lot of sloppy work most of the time because they are usually overtightened. When I was refitting the valves on high pressure, multi-stage gas compressors, it was either right or not. If not, you did a lot of damage to the compressor when the valves unseated themselves.


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## hextal (Aug 25, 2013)

Well - i've been out with the torque wrenches on the bike this morning - (all back together after my spill).

It's probably just me but there is something nice about torquing things up and having the the wrench go 'click'.

Saying that, i've seen a mate using the torque wrench by holding the upper bit 'he'd been previously complaining that it didn't work'.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 25, 2013)

hextal said:


> Well - i've been out with the torque wrenches on the bike this morning - (all back together after my spill).
> 
> It's probably just me but there is something nice about torquing things up and having the the wrench go 'click'.
> 
> Saying that, i've seen a mate using the torque wrench by holding the upper bit 'he'd been previously complaining that it didn't work'.





Have you ever tried one of these :- Clarke PRO238 ½" Drive Digital Torque Adaptor - Machine Mart

Thinking of getting one and keeping it in the van.


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## groyne (Aug 25, 2013)

> there is something nice about torquing things up and having the the wrench go 'click'




I just use my foot on the bar, 2 squeaks on the nut is about right. Never had a wheel fall off.





> now getting recovery to teeside



It's Teesside, Double E, double S, Teesside.


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## maingate (Aug 25, 2013)

All this talk about Torque Wrenches makes me smile a bit.

If I know my weight, the length of the handle on my wheelbrace and the torque figure for the wheels ..... I can torque up the nuts/bolts fairly accurately.

But then ..... I AM an Engineer ...... or was until I hung my spanners up. :dance:

ps Stick to one GOOD squeak groyne and you will not be far out.


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## hextal (Aug 25, 2013)

yeah, car and van wheels, final tightening = foot on end of bar and just press down enough to take my weight. (then add a creak for the van).

my 'special' wrenches are just for the bikes.


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## Tony Lee (Aug 25, 2013)

> When I last had tyres fitted at ATS they tightened the nuts up with an air gun and then went round them with a torque wrench



I reckon you could bet your life that they would have ended up overtorqued using this procedure. Any fitter who uses any sort of rattle gun on nuts and then thinks that then using a torque wrench results in the correct torque is kidding himself and hoodwinking you. Only way to get the correct torque is to forbid the use of air guns for any job other than removing nuts.

As for the OP - broken studs are a pretty good indication they were way overtorqued.


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## groyne (Aug 25, 2013)

> You are not an engineer, then! A car mechanic, perhaps, working at KwikFit?



No, ex Process technician who did the Fitters job when they where asleep on the night shift,:hammer: then had to do the Fitters job when they got rid of the Fitters on the night shift. :hammer::hammer:







> ps Stick to one GOOD squeak groyne and you will not be far out.




I might be lighter than you. :raofl:


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## DRoader (Aug 25, 2013)

gaz2676 said:


> this is not a new thing or craze or firms covering their arse
> check yer wheel nuts
> ask any hgv driver whos worth his salt



I know how to check my wheels and tyres thanks. But it's not about me looking after my vehicle, it's about insurance companies refusing to pay out if you haven't done what your told. See, just do what you are told.


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## Luckheart (Aug 25, 2013)

Interesting thread, I get through at least 8 per year on my Co car and have never been advised. Makes sense though. 

But, is it time for the "I've got a talk wench at home" joke yet?


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## ashbyspannerman (Aug 25, 2013)

[/COLOR]

i do hope not as all 14 wheels on my 44 tonner are alloys running at around 120 psi!


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## bigbarry (Aug 26, 2013)

*Wheel Bolts*

Like the start of your post, I have been driving over 40 years and never been told to check tightness of wheel nuts after a few miles, you pay the professionals to do a good job to start with. Wheel nuts fitted correctly when the wheel is off the ground then torqued once in contact with the ground should not come loose - This is how and why it is designed in this way (accept the fact re rust in the spare wheel)  

The disclaimer does not stop you being compensated, I would pursue the matter through the small claims system, not only nuts, wheel, overnight expenses, inconvenience and stress.

Hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday


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## Tbear (Aug 26, 2013)

bigbarry said:


> Like the start of your post, I have been driving over 40 years and never been told to check tightness of wheel nuts after a few miles, you pay the professionals to do a good job to start with. Wheel nuts fitted correctly when the wheel is off the ground then torqued once in contact with the ground should not come loose - This is how and why it is designed in this way (accept the fact re rust in the spare wheel)
> 
> The disclaimer does not stop you being compensated, I would pursue the matter through the small claims system, not only nuts, wheel, overnight expenses, inconvenience and stress.
> 
> Hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday



If you use small claims, they have an arbitration service which is free and I have used it to good result. You put your case to someone on the phone and they speak to the other party. Your only contact is with the mediator on the phone. They cannot advise you but may point possibilities out to you. Be prepared to haggle. Faster easier and cheaper than going to court.

Good luck

Richard


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## gaz2676 (Aug 26, 2013)

dare say it ll be alloy all round dave 
if ya gonna put them on the trailer makes sense to include the unit
just looked its a 14 wheeler including the unit itll be 6 super singles on the trailer
8 wheels on the tractor


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## helmit (Aug 26, 2013)

gaz2676 said:


> this is not a new thing or craze or firms covering their arse
> check yer wheel nuts
> ask any hgv driver whos worth his salt



Gotta agree with Gaz here I've been driving heavys 45years the last 25 yrs my own during that time i've had dozens of wheel changes caused through blowouts.punctures.bearing failures.etc you allways jump on the w/brace and crack the nuts up (ouch:scared at the first stop after a wheel change.


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## Gadabout2 (Aug 26, 2013)

Merit Tyres always put a sticker on the steering wheel saying "Remember to check/re-tighten wheel nuts after 50 miles driving". Its a great way of reminding the customer.


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## Tbear (Aug 26, 2013)

Is it just me that thinks sending someone out on the road in a 3 1/2 ton MH to travel at 70mph knowing that wheels may fail is a bad idea. Especially if you don't check that they know that they need to check them and have the means and skills to do so. :scared: Yet they fine you for not having a  yellow vest within easy reach in France. 

Richard


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## Robmac (Aug 26, 2013)

I asked a mate of mine who is a racing mechanic. He said 'either believe what some people THINK on a motorhome forum, or listen to me who does it for a living, retorque them - your choice'.

He also said that he has known rusty wheels not stay on 10 miles after being torqued!

It certainly won't do any harm to check them!


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## Robmac (Aug 26, 2013)

the following link seems to explain why it happens;

Loose Wheel Nuts - Causes and Effects, News Articles


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## gaz2676 (Aug 26, 2013)

bloody hell steady on rob youve had two LIKES off me today its not a race ....liked yer mates crack ...WORD..... pmsl


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## Robmac (Aug 26, 2013)

When I say a racing mechanic, i mean that he builds rally cars rather than being part of a pit crew. He also services HGV's. I do choose to listen to him as he is probably the most knowledgeable person I have ever met when it comes to mechanics.
You say that this is a simple mechanical thing. Is it? I don't know personally but there may be many factors to consider such as metal fatigue, tracking, rust, as I say I don't know I'm not a mechanic.

I would say that having lost control of my Sprinter recently due to total steering failure, it is something I would not take a chance with!


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## dave docwra (Aug 26, 2013)

It's to save fuel as well..


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## stevenm5264 (Sep 12, 2013)

*wheel nuts*

I drive hgvs and walk round vehicle b4 every journey checking light tyres wheel nuts etc do the same with van 15 mins can save a lot of grief stay safe


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## Fazerloz (Sep 12, 2013)

Has anybody ever seen a tyre fitter alter the setting on a nut runner or torque wrench because I havent .


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## Wooie1958 (Sep 13, 2013)

stevenm5264 said:


> I drive hgvs and walk round vehicle b4 every journey checking light tyres wheel nuts etc do the same with van 15 mins can save a lot of grief stay safe





That`s exactly what i do, 30+ years of HGV 1 driving and the routine is Brain-washed into me ...................... LOL

Before every journey and also when we stop for either a brew or dinner, i jump out turn on the gas and then do the checks whilst the wife gets the kettle on.

Quick feel of the wheels to make sure they not too hot then clean the Lights, Number Plates, Mirrors and the Windscreen.

It doesn`t take long and i know then everything is right.

You get used to all the regular comments " Over here pal, This one next mate, You`ve missed a bit " etc. etc .etc.


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## gaz2676 (Sep 13, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> That`s exactly what i do, 30+ years of HGV 1 driving and the routine is Brain-washed into me ...................... LOL
> 
> Before every journey and also when we stop for either a brew or dinner, i jump out turn on the gas and then do the checks whilst the wife gets the kettle on.
> 
> ...



i do that as well cant help it ....exactly the same routine its the OCD of the motoring world
just make sure ya DONT KICK THE TYRES ...it make you look a right donkey


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## Robmac (Sep 13, 2013)

gaz2676 said:


> i do that as well cant help it ....exactly the same routine its the OCD of the motoring world
> just make sure ya DONT KICK THE TYRES ...it make you look* a right donkey*



Eeyore ways calls me that.


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## Wooie1958 (Sep 13, 2013)

It`s surprising how many drivers don`t know or just can`t be bothered doing this simple routine and it doesn`t take long.

Having done it for so long i just automatically do the same when out in the Motorhome and in the Car as well.

Last weekend we did a trip down to London in the car with our sons personal stuff.

The day before once the car was loaded ( fully loaded ) i was checking around it and i increased the Tyre Pressures to their maximum.

One of the neighbours passed and asked if i had a Slow Puncture ?

He just looked at me daft when i said i was increasing the pressures because of the extra weight in the car and would let them back down
again after we had unloaded.


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## landyrubbertramp (Sep 13, 2013)

while i agree about the checks etc and i use to drive 7.5 tonne which had its daily checks i can see the other side of it tho. over the last 30 years while we have been told cars are more reliable. the media car adverts compltly skip this and foucs on branding which makes no mention of the car specs. when u walk into a garage a main delaer that is like i did with my gf who is lloking at a new car the delaer never mention anything to do with saftey at all when i asked him about the spare wheel situation i,e did it have one os=r a space saver or none at all he wasnt sure but he could tell you that you could connect your i pad and phone to the stero. gargares are not better they all talk about saftey the likes of ats etc thats because thats thier usp to make money. yet they want give you one second to ask you if u are unsure about how to do x or y thats because they don't want to empower you. lastly when you take a car to a back street they do have a slight arrginace issuie and almost look as if you are dim when you carnt tell them if the gearbox oil has been replaced sinced you had it, i turn round and say when was te last time you defraged you computer they relpy i dont know what you are on about and i relpy nither do i about when the gearbox was replaced . if the car industry wnat to give an impression of saftery and relaibality then we shouldnt be surprised . how many ppl who have cars  check things as per their haynes manuy if we are honest


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## montyalgarve (Sep 13, 2013)

Silverbull said:


> Firstly praise God that there's not been an accident... We're travelling from Nottingham to Scotland and due to an upset 7month old baby we decided to stop last night in Ripon (thanks to the wildcamping poi's).
> 
> Started off this morn and after half a mile had to stop.... Rear left wheel almost fallen off! Two of 5 bolts sheared off so tightened the rest and limped to ATS (luckily only 1 mile away).
> 
> ...



Happened to me back in the UK needles to say check them regular now,  not wishing to make light of your incident i remember Kenny Rogers releasing a song on the subject,,, You picked a fine time to leave me lose wheel ,,, sorry couldn't resist it.  :raofl::raofl::raofl::raofl::raofl:


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## QFour (Sep 13, 2013)

I bought a NEW VW Transporter a few years ago and when I got a puncture I was really stuffed as the nuts on the wheel were so tight. The wheel wrench supplied was totally useless and bent very easily. A truck driver stopped and lent me a very long wheel removal bar and a selection of sockets. I returned to the VW garage with my broken bent tool :lol-053: an was informed that they had to tighten them up to stop them falling off. So I suggested that they supply a tool that would remove the nuts. They did and I still have it. Its one of those posh ones that extends out and can have a variety of socket fittings.


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## maingate (Sep 14, 2013)

If you have a Ducato with 16" wheels and 24 mm wheelnuts, you may burst an ordinary socket trying to lose overtightened ones. It would be best to do a trial run at home instead of finding out on a cold wet night in the middle of nowhere.

Personally, I carry a 3/4" drive Tommy Bar and an Impact socket.


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## Silverbull (Aug 22, 2014)

Hi everyone....been a while but I thought I'd update y'all

The garage in question whilst not accepting responsibility sent me a cheque for the full amount of damages...namely half a day in a mainline commercial mercedes garage (on a weekend) and replacement wheel.... initially they asked for receipts and the old wheel but then communication stopped. However the notice of intention of small claims court action may have spurred them on. Cheque for the full amount signed by the director the next day totalling north of £500 :boat:


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 22, 2014)

Glad you got sorted and the garage in question came good in the end 

Also, it was good of you to come back and let us know the outcome,  a lot don`t seem to bother these days.


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## Beemer (Aug 22, 2014)

Silverbull said:


> Hi everyone....been a while but I thought I'd update y'all
> 
> The garage in question whilst not accepting responsibility sent me a cheque for the full amount of damages...namely half a day in a mainline commercial mercedes garage (on a weekend) and replacement wheel.... initially they asked for receipts and the old wheel but then communication stopped. However the notice of intention of small claims court action may have spurred them on. Cheque for the full amount signed by the director the next day totalling north of £500 :boat:



Are they not admitting partial blame, just by paying out?


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## molly 2 (Aug 22, 2014)

Silverbull said:


> Hi everyone....been a while but I thought I'd update y'all
> 
> The garage in question whilst not accepting responsibility sent me a cheque for the full amount of damages...namely half a day in a mainline commercial mercedes garage (on a weekend) and replacement wheel.... initially they asked for receipts and the old wheel but then communication stopped. However the notice of intention of small claims court action may have spurred them on. Cheque for the full amount signed by the director the next day totalling north of £500 :boat:


 good result surely that shows the disclaimer is useless. If the wheels should be checked after 30 min it should be done before the vehicle is allowed  leaves the shop. Not pass the responsibility to the customer.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 22, 2014)

molly 2 said:


> good result surely that shows the disclaimer is useless. If the wheels should be checked after 30 min it should be done before the vehicle is allowed  leaves the shop. Not pass the responsibility to the customer.





I think you`ll find it`s *30 miles* and not 30 min ( minutes ).


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## molly 2 (Aug 22, 2014)

Wooie1958 said:


> I think you`ll find it`s *30 miles* and not 30 min ( minutes ).


No if you look at Ats photo it states 30 minutes standing time or 25 to 30 miles.   Reply 13


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## Polar Bear (Aug 22, 2014)

Speaking from a garage's point of view.

We spend many hundreds of pounds a year on 'Auto Date' to give us the required torque settings for every vehicle on the road today. We also spend £120.00+ per year to have our torque wrenches calibrated. Our air driven guns cost around the £400 mark and produce up to 200+ pounds torque in reverse to brake nuts loose but are set to drive clockwise at well below any torque setting so we can then take the nuts up to the torque setting.

Wheel nut/bolts are a problem area that has been an issue since cars were invented. Vehicle manufacturers give us through Auto-Data the setting to use. This setting is a compromise to some extent taking into account that, they are probably the only nuts a _'man-in -the street' _ will take off at the side of the road and most people expect a wheel nut to stay put but complain if they cannot remove it with ease.

Unlike most nuts/bolts on ones vehicle these may be undone and tightened many times during their lifetime, That alloy and steel together has an electrolysis effect. This can have adverse effects on being able to get a reliable torque setting. We have been in business for 28 years and have always advise our customers verbally and in writing to bring their vehicles back to have them re-torqued. It's not a question of how many minutes the wheels have been on but they need a few miles of driving to settle down. A correctly torqued wheel nut will not come loose in this distance. 

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread a stud/bolt can be stretched, and once this been done cannot be undone or relied upon. 
The only way to be 100%  sure that they will not fail is to have new bolts/nut/studs fitted every time you have your wheels off.


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## Tow Itch (Aug 22, 2014)

Glad it all turned out OK for the OP.
I'd never seen this thread. Because I come at things from the differing perspective of a folding camper user I have some points that I'd not seen addressed so far.
A few people I know had lost wheels but had also had new tyres fitted just before. A forum I occasionally used were all convinced that the nuts had loosened off and that periodic testing or the fitting of nut indicators was the way to go. I saw the clue being in the fact that new tyres had been fitted. We only have [SUP]3[/SUP]/[SUB]8[/SUB]ths studs and I was convinced they had been over stretched by tyre fitters with windy guns.
More wheels come off trailers than vehicles (possible in whole numbers certainly proportionally) also these tend to be the nearside wheels too. Now if the nuts were to impact anything, normal right hand threads would tend to be impacted loose though I don't think anyone was suggesting all these LHS wheels were lost because of nut impacts. Eventually I found some info on this by Collyn Rivers. Why Wheels Fall off - and nuts work loose - Caravan and Motorhome Books This man is always an excellent read
One thing I disagree with him about is the use of a self seeking threadlock (Locktite 290) if subsequent re torquings only require a marginal re torquing. I've no problem with using the threadlocker what I'm unsure about is the subsequent re torques.
 I was involved in the checking of V bands on turbochargers that we believed had been miss torqed at too low a setting but as the initial tightening is part of a dynamic action and the subsequent re test is a static action (the nut isn't moving) you could have a low figure of torque originally used and yet still not have the nut move on a re torquing. Stiction being greater than dynamic friction. Can't remember what we did in the end. I think we unwound all the nuts and redid them.
I've no definite answer as to what you should do if a nut is perpetually unwinding. I'd try to inspect but as I've never done this unsure what evidence I'd expect.

Nothing to do with this but for those of you using alloy wheels using copper grease on the back face of the alloy is a good idea. Alloy wheels often have electrolysis occur between them and the iron brake drum. Copper grease provides a barrier and stops you having to hammer the wheel off. NOTE I said the back of the wheel (where it seats) and NOT anywhere near the studs.


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## molly 2 (Aug 22, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Speaking from a garage's point of view.
> 
> We spend many hundreds of pounds a year on 'Auto Date' to give us the required torque settings for every vehicle on the road today. We also spend £120.00+ per year to have our torque wrenches calibrated. Our air driven guns cost around the £400 mark and produce up to 200+ pounds torque in reverse to brake nuts loose but are set to drive clockwise at well below any torque setting so we can then take the nuts up to the torque setting.
> 
> ...


  I agree. That correctly. Torqued wheels will not come loose.


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## Hymie (Aug 22, 2014)

Not sure that is standard practice with ATS, I had a new front tyre fitted at ATS at Thurrock before we went to France in June and the fitter never told me to check the wheel nuts.

Also been driving company vehicles for over 40 years and at no point has anyone ever told me to check wheel nuts when having tyres replaced. (Mainly KwapFit)

I'm wiser now.

Good luck with the repairs, hope the rest of your travels are smooth and trouble free.

Hymie.


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## drewdt3 (Aug 22, 2014)

I ran a local authority garage for about 20 years and the only time we had problems with wheel nuts coming loose were on rear truck twin wheels when the mating surfaces had not been cleaned correctly and that was rare. We never had any problems otherwise at all in all that time apart from when one of my fitters forgot to tighten the wheel nuts!! He was subsequently let go as he was still on probation and it wasn't his first balls up. 
I am now a vehicle inspector for a government agency and in the almost 8 years that I have been doing this I have not found 1 wheel nut loose and I can assure you that when tyres have been changed these wheel nuts have not been re-checked. I would say with 99% certainty that the nuts weren't tightened correctly or more likely weren't tightened at all. I know the tyre companies all put this disclaimer/warning on but it is solely to cover their arses.

Drew


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## Deleted member 20892 (Aug 22, 2014)

funnily enough, I have been looking at buying a torque wrench for our van, there a bit pricey roughly £90 including the nut tightener, so food for thought for us, just unsure at what torque setting it should be if we bought one. We have a Fiat Ducato panel van, so will call in at a tyre place and ask there advise.!

jt


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## molly 2 (Aug 22, 2014)

drewdt3 said:


> I ran a local authority garage for about 20 years and the only time we had problems with wheel nuts coming loose were on rear truck twin wheels when the mating surfaces had not been cleaned correctly and that was rare. We never had any problems otherwise at all in all that time apart from when one of my fitters forgot to tighten the wheel nuts!! He was subsequently let go as he was still on probation and it wasn't his first balls up.
> I am now a vehicle inspector for a government agency and in the almost 8 years that I have been doing this I have not found 1 wheel nut loose and I can assure you that when tyres have been changed these wheel nuts have not been re-checked. I would say with 99% certainty that the nuts weren't tightened correctly or more likely weren't tightened at all. I know the tyre companies all put this disclaimer/warning on but it is solely to cover their arses.
> 
> Drew


 I had 32 years . Maintaining a large fleet never had a vehicle wheel checked never had one come loose  covering their  arses spot on.  tyre companies fit thousands of wheels Each year ,an occasional slip up can happen.


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## RoadTrek Boy (Aug 22, 2014)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that with alloy wheeles they should always use stick on balancing weights, but seldom do, knock on weights can cause alloy wheels to fracture due to electrolsis (Spelling?)....:drive:

Colin


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## Tony Lee (Aug 22, 2014)

Bet they used a rattle gun to tighten the nuts up instead of a manual torque wrench as they are supposed to - and probably slathered on a heap of anti-seize like they are NOT supposed to.



> The only way to be 100% sure that they will not fail is to have new bolts/nut/studs fitted every time you have your wheels off.


  and then ONLY if you stand over the fitter and insist he uses nothing but a manual torque wrench.



> But that's just because I work on the assumption that they may have made a mistake with the torque settings.


  that is not much use unless you first loosen all the nuts and then retighten them by hand to the correct torque


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## SteveB48 (Aug 22, 2014)

Interesting thread. 
Had our tyres from Etyres, who came and fitted them on the drive. 
The fitter used a manual torque wrench, double-checked the torque setting in the database and workshop manual, and set them off the ground then on the ground. 
No recommendation was made about re-checking and if it had been it would be the first time I'd heard of it in fifty years of motoring!
There's no reason NOT to check them, but we set out on a 400 mile trip the next day. I don't carry a torque wrench in the van.


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## trevskoda (Aug 22, 2014)

a steel wheel will buckle and distort after a blowout where as a alloy will just wear down,i have been there.


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## trevskoda (Aug 22, 2014)

Robmac said:


> I asked a mate of mine who is a racing mechanic. He said 'either believe what some people THINK on a motorhome forum, or listen to me who does it for a living, retorque them - your choice'.
> 
> He also said that he has known rusty wheels not stay on 10 miles after being torqued!
> 
> It certainly won't do any harm to check them!



thats strange as racing cars come in for a wheel change and out in 30sec ,no retorque there? just a thought.


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## trevskoda (Aug 22, 2014)

Robmac said:


> the following link seems to explain why it happens;
> 
> Loose Wheel Nuts - Causes and Effects, News Articles



a well informed and correct post,thats what i like to see.


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## Silverbull (Aug 23, 2014)

Well the official term used by the director was 'without prejudice' so basically a gesture of goodwill. He picked up on the poor attitude of the branch manager (the guy who referred me to the small print) but also hinted that at this stage they had no intention of changing their policy or small print.

Since the wheels were fitted properly (tightened fully) we've had no issue whatsoever... it really was a case of them not being tightened properly/at all...I dont feel the need to carry a torque wrench round...you know when a nut is tightened just right if using an extendable wrench imo.

Ive spoken with many people with 40+ years of motoring experience and people with many health and safety qualifications who write policies for large companies with fleets of vehicles...most of whom have never heard of the need to check nuts after having wheels off.


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## Siimplyloco (Aug 23, 2014)

trevskoda said:


> a well informed and correct post,thats what i like to see.



About as rare as rocking horse droppings on here!:scooter::lol-053:


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## Polar Bear (Aug 23, 2014)

john t said:


> funnily enough, I have been looking at buying a torque wrench for our van, there a bit pricey roughly £90 including the nut tightener, so food for thought for us, just unsure at what torque setting it should be if we bought one. We have a Fiat Ducato panel van, so will call in at a tyre place and ask there advise.!
> 
> jt



Ducato           160lbs/foot
Ducato maxi   180lbs/foot


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## runnach (Aug 23, 2014)

Silverbull said:


> Well the official term used by the director was 'without prejudice' so basically a gesture of goodwill. He picked up on the poor attitude of the branch manager (the guy who referred me to the small print) but also hinted that at this stage they had no intention of changing their policy or small print.
> 
> Since the wheels were fitted properly (tightened fully) we've had no issue whatsoever... it really was a case of them not being tightened properly/at all...I dont feel the need to carry a torque wrench round...you know when a nut is tightened just right if using an extendable wrench imo.
> 
> Ive spoken with many people with 40+ years of motoring experience and people with many health and safety qualifications who write policies for large companies with fleets of vehicles...most of whom have never heard of the need to check nuts after having wheels off.



I would question those companies H and S policies then !!...re torque of wheels is simply good practise.

The physical reasons are easy enough to understand, It has nothing whatsoever to do with a garages professionalism or mechanical aptitude.

What is glaringly obvious from this thread, is that there is a communication issue between the industry and end users. Someone earlier mentioned stickers over the speedo to inform, I too have seen this 1999 on a fleet of commercials we ran. A couple of years ago I had a tyre changed on a Sprinter I was driving on behalf of DHL..both DHL and the tyre company employed a policy to ensure that settings were retorqued.

Channa


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## Polar Bear (Aug 24, 2014)

Hi. I believe all aeroplane wheels have a locking device or lock nuts fitted?


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## n brown (Aug 24, 2014)

i had a tyre put on a couple of weeks ago,i never retighten the bolts.
 however i wanted to change the drum brakes on the back, so put the long bar on the bolt and stamped on the end to crack it- nearly crippled myself as there was no resistance at all ! the others came off just as easily . so it's worth checking ,tyre pressure too after a tyre change.
the job was done by what appeared to be a 10 year old lad,but he could have been 17 i suppose, whether he used a torque wrench i wasn't watching. i will next time !

i find stamping on the end of a long bar till the bolts creak is about the correct torque for my wheels


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## witzend (Aug 24, 2014)

channa said:


> I would question those companies H and S policies then !!...re torque of wheels is simply good practise.
> The physical reasons are easy enough to understand, It has nothing whatsoever to do with a garages professionalism or mechanical aptitude.
> Channa



Perhaps what is needed is another part to the driving test where everyone has to take a Mechanical Aptitude Test every 5 yrs it frightens me when I see this type of post where a lot of people are unaware of these basic mechanical checks but are allowed in charge of a vehicle.


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## t5campervan (Aug 24, 2014)

After putting alloys on my t5 last thing the fitter said was check after a few miles.


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