# Loch Lomond and Trossachs



## 2cv (Oct 26, 2016)

A very large area is earmarked to become no go for overnighting away from campsites.
Much is referring to tent camping but motorhomes too are in their sights. I suppose that it was inevitable given that many motorhome users were staying for long periods, setting up camp with awnings, tables and chairs, and lighting fires.
It is a pity I think for those who just wish to spend a night parked in their van, leaving no trace
http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org...8-Appendix-1-Camping-Development-Strategy.pdf


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## saxonrosie (Oct 26, 2016)

You are quite right another case of the few spoiling it for the many


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## Foolonthehill (Oct 26, 2016)

runnach said:


> Aye, and I imagine this will eventually be rolled out all over Scotland?



I also reckon it is on the cards.


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## Steveboy (Oct 26, 2016)

Several years ago my wife & I arrived at Rowardennan ready to hike Ben Lomond. It was a Monday morning and the place looked as though a huge refugee camp had just been cleared. Tents, litter, unmentionables everywhere. Turns out the 'Neds' (Glaswegians of a 'certain' nature) had taken over the place during the weekend. I think it was the year following when free-camping of any sort was banned on the East side of the Loch. 
So rest assured it is neither Tuggers or Motorhomers who are to blame.


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## vampirequeen (Oct 26, 2016)

Oh no! We were planning to go there next summer.  We can't afford to stay on the campsites.  What a shame.


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## Yogihughes (Oct 26, 2016)

Yeah! just blame the 'Glaswegians' they spoil it for everybody.
I will have you know that there are a lot of good people in Glasgow who would not dream of doing such a thing.


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## ScamperVan (Oct 26, 2016)

vampirequeen said:


> Oh no! We were planning to go there next summer.  We can't afford to stay on the campsites.  What a shame.



I skim read the article but it seems they are mostly talking about the lochside areas, and even then there will still be designated "wildcamping" areas for motohomes. They talk about "permit areas" (scroll down to page 18, for example). 
My understanding is that outside the Camping Management Zones it's business as usual - page 6 

_"The Camping Management Zones that have been defined reflect those areas where camping
impacts have been most significant and which are easily accessed from public roads. The areas
covered take in the land between the road and the lochshore and on the opposite landward
side, at a distance of approximately 200m from the public road, or to the nearest visible feature
such as field boundaries or tracks. Within these areas, the byelaws restrict camping unless an
area has been identified as a campsite or as a permitted area where camping numbers will be
managed by the issue of a permit.
The operation of these byelaws will form part of a strategic approach to the management of
informal camping activity which includes a commitment to accommodate lochshore camping
experiences in a more sustainable and managed way in addition to continuing education and
awareness raising work to promote responsible camping.
Wild camping (as defined in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code), in the remaining 96% of the
Park’s 720 square miles, is unaffected. " _


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## Wully (Oct 26, 2016)

Yogihughes said:


> Yeah! just blame the 'Glaswegians' they spoil it for everybody.
> I will have you know that there are a lot of good people in Glasgow who would not dream of doing such a thing.



I stay near loch lomand. I take a trip up tae glesga once a month get pissed and make as much mess as I can it's called carma


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## OldJim (Oct 26, 2016)

Are motorhomers really going to be that badly affected ?
Page 19 onwards shows where camping and motorhoming will be permitted, looking at the map the majority of the popular motorhome stopovers are included. On the west of Loch Lomond, Tarbet, Inveruglas, etc. It also looks like Firkin Point will have permitted motorhoming, Ardgaran looks to be unaffected, so while there will be a few areas affected the majority of motorhome stopovers will be unaffected.

Will now go and don suit of armour.


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## ScamperVan (Oct 26, 2016)

OldJim said:


> Are motorhomers really going to be that badly affected ?
> Page 19 onwards shows where camping and motorhoming will be permitted, looking at the map the majority of the popular motorhome stopovers are included. On the west of Loch Lomond, Tarbet, Inveruglas, etc. It also looks like Firkin Point will have permitted motorhoming, Ardgaran looks to be unaffected, so while there will be a few areas affected the majority of motorhome stopovers will be unaffected.
> 
> Will now go and don suit of armour.



You can borrow mine - I thought the same without knowing the specifics of the areas you mentioned. In fact, it sounded as if it would be better with "aire" type facilities being installed in heavily used places (wonder if they could include midge-scarers?). It will be interesting to see what the cost of the permit will be.


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## Randonneur (Oct 26, 2016)

When we were up there in august we overnighted at duck bay which is south of Luss and does'nt look to be included in the camping management zone. There were quite a few other vans overnighting there including a big american RV with his side slide out over the pavement.


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## 2cv (Oct 27, 2016)

Just a few points:
I think that any mention of wild camping is in reference to tents not motorhomes.
I am not certain, but think that the initial "aire" type provision costs £15 per night.
Firkin Point has no overnight parking at present but looks like it is in line to become an "aire", probably at a similar cost.
In the new plan the currently used areas such as Duck Bay will no longer be useable for overnight stops.

The thin edge of the wedge is firmly in, it was with the Eastern shore bans, I think that this spread will now continue year by year.
Unfortunately motorhome users have been caught up in the actions of some tent wildcampers, but of course a small percentage have themselves helped bring this on by long term staying, littering, lighting fires etc.

The only alternative solution that I can suggest would be to deal with the miscreants at the time rather than issue the preferred blanket bans. I think that this is most unlikely to happen.


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## haggislassie (Nov 2, 2016)

*latest about this topic*

I live in this wonderful part of the world but do appreciate the feeling that the few are now spoiling it for the many, despite trying to tackle it at ground level for many years. 

Being a conservation volunteer with the Park, rest assured some peoples idea of taking their litter home is unbelievable, and unmentionable on this Forum, as lots of folk don't even try to, from picnickers, campers, WHW walkers and even, dare I say the very odd M/Homers!!

If you type in the following web address it will take you to the latest Q & A on the new Bye Law being introduced 1st March 2017 and lots more, besides. 

Your Park - making the most of the outdoors

All is not lost, folks, lets try to keep it that way!

Elaine


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## 2cv (Nov 2, 2016)

haggislassie said:


> I live in this wonderful part of the world but do appreciate the feeling that the few are now spoiling it for the many, despite trying to tackle it at ground level for many years.
> 
> Being a conservation volunteer with the Park, rest assured some peoples idea of taking their litter home is unbelievable, and unmentionable on this Forum, as lots of folk don't even try to, from picnickers, campers, WHW walkers and even, dare I say the very odd M/Homers!!
> 
> ...



Unfortunately as far as those of us who just like to park and sleep in our vans all is a actually lost for this area, the actions of those who choose to long stay, litter or light fires have resulted in those who would cause no damage being banned from parking and sleeping. Definitely the thin edge of the wedge as far as Scotland is concerned, if understandably.
Not everyone wishes to be herded into a campsite with unnecessary facilities and hoards of other vans and tents.


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## Auld Pharrrt (Nov 2, 2016)

Just drive on by and take yer money elsewhere ... seemples.


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## Yogihughes (Nov 2, 2016)

Good suggestion Auld Pharrrt.......but I reckon there will be many more places which will go the same way as Loch Lomond and ban overnight parking.
One of the reasons that I have sold my MH and no longer wish to be herded onto organised sites.


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## Auld Pharrrt (Nov 2, 2016)

Yogihughes said:


> Good suggestion Auld Pharrrt.......but I reckon there will be many more places which will go the same way as Loch Lomond and ban overnight parking.
> One of the reasons that I have sold my MH and no longer wish to be herded onto organised sites.



Well, I must be really lucky ... You see,  in my opinion Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II has granted me permission to park my vehicle on any public highway (as long as I do so in a legal manner) in return for the small stipend I pay her every year ... road fund licence I believe the common name is given to it. Also, she dictates in numerous ways that I shouldn't drive if I'm too fatigued to do so safely.  Also I have been granted special permission by means of her decision to allow me the right to roam.

Happily I see no need to park around Loch Lomond as it was pretty much my stomping ground for many years and holds very little appeal for me now


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## Randonneur (Nov 2, 2016)

> Happily I see no need to park around Loch Lomond as it was pretty much my stomping ground for many years and holds very little appeal for me now




Unfortunately for those of us who visit from down south of the border Loch Lomond is very often a convenient stopping point on our way north.


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## Auld Pharrrt (Nov 2, 2016)

Randonneur said:


> Unfortunately for those of us who visit from down south of the border Loch Lomond is very often a convenient stopping point on our way north.



Nip along the road a few miles to Arrocher ... a nice car park at the top of the village and/or a campsite if you want it.  Also a fairly decent cafe at the opposite end of the village.

Google Maps


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## happypete (Nov 2, 2016)

*Loch Lomond stops*



2cv said:


> A very large area is earmarked to become no go for overnighting away from campsites.
> Much is referring to tent camping but motorhomes too are in their sights. I suppose that it was inevitable given that many motorhome users were staying for long periods, setting up camp with awnings, tables and chairs, and lighting fires.
> It is a pity I think for those who just wish to spend a night parked in their van, leaving no trace
> http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org...8-Appendix-1-Camping-Development-Strategy.pdf


We were up to Loch Lomond a few weeks ago and resorted to laybys on the western side - one or two just off the road - hopefully where truckers are not stopped when they move away in the early hours! The ban on "unofficial" camping relates to the eastern side of Loch Lomond area and is said to be patrolled!


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## 2cv (Nov 2, 2016)

happypete said:


> We were up to Loch Lomond a few weeks ago and resorted to laybys on the western side - one or two just off the road - hopefully where truckers are not stopped when they move away in the early hours! The ban on "unofficial" camping relates to the eastern side of Loch Lomond area and is said to be patrolled!



Please read the original link, the ban on the Eastern side is soon spread to a much larger area including the area you mention.


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## 2cv (Feb 25, 2017)

The bookings system is now up and running Loch Lomond & The Trossachs Wild Camping - Online Booking and apparently the bylaws have been amended to prohibit overnight parking in the previously unbanned lay bys.
Unfortunately this is very likely to spread to Scotlands other national parks, after all the initial policy only applied to East Loch Lomond with a promise of no plans to extend the area.
The alteration and meaning of the camping byelaws - parkswatchscotland


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## jake (Feb 25, 2017)

*wee nippy*

Aye wee nippy sweetie(Ms.Sturgeon ),will find a way of getting money oot o they English!! she canny jack up the taxes for ye, she'll get  ye anither way, welcome to Scotland the highest taxed place in the UK. (tin helmet now on !!):mad2:


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## saxonrosie (Feb 26, 2017)

Just had a look at the web page , several contradictions for instance one page says arrive 1pm till 11am next day , if you look at terms and conditions it states your permit is for 7pm till 7am. Who's going to leave at 7am, or pay £3 for no toilets or drinking water, water is the least they could provide.


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## maingate (Feb 26, 2017)

Can anyone just allow motorhome overnighting?

I thought the 1960 Caravan Act prevented it.


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## Straad (Feb 26, 2017)

*Fake News*



jake said:


> Aye wee nippy sweetie(Ms.Sturgeon ),will find a way of getting money oot o they English!! she canny jack up the taxes for ye, she'll get  ye anither way, welcome to Scotland the highest taxed place in the UK. (tin helmet now on !!):mad2:



Ok Jake, I've only just joined and I really didn't want to start off by having an argument with anybody but by the same token it's hard to let what you've just posted go unchallenged because by doing so it allows it a credibility that is unwarranted. I will start with "tin helmet on". If you choose to be rude about someone then you can hardly complain if you get the same back in return. 
"Wee nippy sweety" is just name calling. 
"Getting money out o they English" Remind me who sets the local regulations and charges? That would be the Local Authority, not the Scottish Government and on what basis do you justify implying that it only being applied to "they English" and not everybody else. Your implication is that the Scottish Government is anti-English. I would be interested to hear any evidence that you have to back up that claim.
"Highest taxed place in the UK" Ok, I will concede that but it needs to be put into the context that all the Scottish Government did was to decline to reduce (as is happening in Westminster) the higher rate tax threshold, at a time when a lot of families are struggling to make ends meet. At no time and in no way have they put taxes up. 
The one area we do agree on though is "Welcome to Scotland" Please, regardless of where you come from, and especially if you are English, a warm welcome awaits you! Don't be put off by Fake News!


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## alcam (Feb 26, 2017)

Straad said:


> Ok Jake, I've only just joined and I really didn't want to start off by having an argument with anybody but by the same token it's hard to let what you've just posted go unchallenged because by doing so it allows it a credibility that is unwarranted. I will start with "tin helmet on". If you choose to be rude about someone then you can hardly complain if you get the same back in return.
> "Wee nippy sweety" is just name calling.
> "Getting money out o they English" Remind me who sets the local regulations and charges? That would be the Local Authority, not the Scottish Government and on what basis do you justify implying that it only being applied to "they English" and not everybody else. Your implication is that the Scottish Government is anti-English. I would be interested to hear any evidence that you have to back up that claim.
> *"Highest taxed place in the UK*" Ok, I will concede that but it needs to be put into the context that all the Scottish Government did was to decline to reduce (as is happening in Westminster) the higher rate tax threshold, at a time when a lot of families are struggling to make ends meet. At no time and in no way have they put taxes up.
> The one area we do agree on though is "Welcome to Scotland" Please, regardless of where you come from, and especially if you are English, a warm welcome awaits you! Don't be put off by Fake News!



I'm very happy with my 100% business rates discount . Basically means I pay less taxes in Scotland


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## hotrats (Feb 26, 2017)

Steveboy said:


> Several years ago my wife & I arrived at Rowardennan ready to hike Ben Lomond. It was a Monday morning and the place looked as though a huge refugee camp had just been cleared. Tents, litter, unmentionables everywhere. Turns out the 'Neds' (Glaswegians of a 'certain' nature) had taken over the place during the weekend. I think it was the year following when free-camping of any sort was banned on the East side of the Loch.
> So rest assured it is neither Tuggers or Motorhomers who are to blame.



Their are Neds from all over,it is not a name for Glaswegian`s only.


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## hotrats (Feb 26, 2017)

Looser cruiser said:


> I stay near loch lomand. I take a trip up tae glesga once a month get pissed and make as much mess as I can it's c
> alled carma [/QUOTE
> And when yir on holiday and spew up you pretend yir fae Glesga:blah:


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## alcam (Feb 26, 2017)

runnach said:


> I can't speak for all, but I reckon many of us never replied as post was tongue in cheek and, more importantly, waaaaaaaaaaaaay off, topic. *There is another thread for such tax things Scottishness.
> *
> Oh, and welcome to la la land



Not sure if there is ?

Oops misread your post


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## Wully (Feb 26, 2017)

hotrats said:


> Looser cruiser said:
> 
> 
> > I stay near loch lomand. I take a trip up tae glesga once a month get pissed and make as much mess as I can it's c
> ...


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## Deleted member 60834 (Feb 26, 2017)

Anyway back to the topic at hand, the wife and I did a reconnoiter of one of the affected areas this weekend, Aberfoyle and surrounding lochs. There are now signs up stating that you are entering the camping management zone, we looked at the dedicated areas for Motorhomes where we could, as the forest drive road is closed till the 1st March, and for the most part I don't see much to worry about, ok it will cost £3 per night, and as far as I can see only one has a water tap, but given the investment recently including benches with BBQ, new marked walks etc, that isn't asking to much. 

We stayed at a picnic area at the entrance to the forest drive and apart us we saw only two cars, and they only stayed for a few minutes and then left. We counted about 15 individual dedicated camping bays solely for Motorhome's situated in some very beautiful and remote wild places. If camping in the actual forest you wouldn't be bothered by anyone else as the gates are locked at night.  

I did look at car parking in the forest and at the loch side that didn't allow overnight stays and would suggest that if all the available pitches have been booked, then pressure is put on the park to make better use of that provision. In any case what the park are offering is wild camping, or as close as you can get in a Motorhome and is that not what we are looking for!

Camping | Things to do | - Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park


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## Auld Pharrrt (Feb 26, 2017)

I was just reading this a few minutes ago ... 

A look to the future? | Walkhighlands


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## 2cv (Feb 26, 2017)

Auld Pharrrt said:


> I was just reading this a few minutes ago ...
> 
> A look to the future? | Walkhighlands



That makes very interesting reading. Wild camping (or parking) in Scotland could well become a thing of the past in time. Amazing how these things can get out of hand and spread.


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## Auld Pharrrt (Feb 27, 2017)

2cv said:


> That makes very interesting reading. Wild camping (or parking) in Scotland could well become a thing of the past in time. Amazing how these things can get out of hand and spread.



Ahh, but I read it as ... there aint nothing to stop you from parking up as long as you stay on the public roads network! ... after all, that's why we pay bloody road tax, if they say we cannot use miles of the public road then we should demand a refund of part of our road taxes!


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## 2cv (Feb 27, 2017)

Auld Pharrrt said:


> Ahh, but I read it as ... there aint nothing to stop you from parking up as long as you stay on the public roads network! ... after all, that's why we pay bloody road tax, if they say we cannot use miles of the public road then we should demand a refund of part of our road taxes!



I think that this was originally the case. However  (though it is difficult to keep up with their plans) I think that after the change to the bylaws of February 24 the laybys and roads in the area are no longer available for overnight stops.


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## groyne (Feb 27, 2017)

I've parked up in laybys along the loch for an overnight stop a few times when heading further north, literally arriving in the evening and leaving after breakfast. Do I now need to book or not?


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## mitch7880 (Feb 27, 2017)

There are signs  going up all over no permit and you can receive 500 pound fine forestry commission car parks who Owens the forestry commission not the lomand trust


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## alcam (Feb 27, 2017)

runnach said:


> Yes there is, or was, was located within rant/rave area, which looks like is no longer within this site???



So I see .


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## Croftland1 (Feb 27, 2017)

See article below taken from the current Mountaineering Scotland publication, which adds some clarity and interpretation.

Loch Lomond camping issues | Mountaineering Scotland

Interestingly it quotes, "The camping management zones and permit scheme may not apply to laybys controlled by Transport Scotland and adjacent to trunk roads, although these may be located in camping management zones."


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## 2cv (Feb 27, 2017)

Croftland1 said:


> See article below taken from the current Mountaineering Scotland publication, which adds some clarity and interpretation.
> 
> Loch Lomond camping issues | Mountaineering Scotland
> 
> Interestingly it quotes, *"The management zones and permit scheme may not apply to laybys controlled by Transport Scotland and adjacent to trunk roads, although these may be located in camping management zones."*



I think that this was the case before the bylaws were amended last week, laybys and roads are now included.
Also, it's not just a fine but a criminal record for breaking the rules!


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## Admin (Feb 27, 2017)

Here is a response from Patrick Baxter



> Good morning,
> 
> Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park will welcome campers under its new seasonal camping byelaws which take effect from 1st March 2017. Visitors looking to get out and camp in one of the Park’s camping management zones will require a permit, available from the National Park’s website. The management zones cover only 4% of the Park in the most fragile loch-shore environments. Those looking to camp elsewhere in the park will be unaffected by the byelaws.
> 
> ...





			
				Media Release said:
			
		

> *National Park welcomes campers as new byelaws come into effect*
> 
> As new camping byelaws come into effect, the Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park Authority are reminding visitors that all kinds of camping are still welcome in the Park.
> 
> ...


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## Auld Pharrrt (Feb 27, 2017)

2cv said:


> I think that this was the case before the bylaws were amended last week, laybys and roads are now included.
> Also, it's not just a fine but a criminal record for breaking the rules!



I wish I had the money and the balls to go have a stopover then, if I got any hassle take them to court ... as far as I am concerned I pay road tax to use the PUBLIC road network. Parking at any time in laybys is within the law and is in fact deemed necessary by the laws of the land if I am too fatiqued to drive safely.

Personally I reckon it's only a matter of time before we will be reading about a story of this kind where someone pursues them in court for refusing us our civil rights.

I certainly hope to see it.


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## delicagirl (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks Phil  that made interesting reading.  I can see how they need to prevent further abuse of their landscape and regulation of some sort was inevitable. 

Because this is new the Park Rangers will assist folks to do the right thing, and a criminal prosecution is a long way down the line if someone fails to comply and is at the discretion of the court anyway.

A permit is only £3. Some of the overnight spots are very cheap. In any case this only applies to 4% of the national park. 

If we oppose this we will be seen as part of the rubbish-dumping loutish community.

If a driver is tired and needs to rest  they certainly don't need  an overnight 8 hours of sleep to recuperate....


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## delicagirl (Feb 27, 2017)

Auld Pharrrt said:


> I wish I had the money and the balls to go have a stopover then, if I getiany hassle take them to court ... as far as I am concerned I pay road tax to use the PUBLIC road network. *Parking at any time in laybys is within the law* and is in fact deemed necessary by the laws of the land if I am too fatiqued to drive safely.
> 
> Personally I reckon it's only a matter of time before we will be reading about a story of this kind where someone pursues them in court for refusing us our civil rights.
> 
> I certainly hope to see it.



indeed it is  but i have seen many laybys where the time allowed for parking is limited by signs and backed up by statute .


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## Deleted member 60834 (Feb 27, 2017)

Unauthorised Camping
(7)
It shall be an offence for any person to sleep overnight in a stationary vehicle within a Management Zone unless: 
(b) the vehicle is on a road. 

And this is where things get interesting 
Practical Law ? Books

I would argue that lay-bys as maintained by the highway agency and local authorities roads departments constitute a road. So any parky who comes on all official like and demands to know my details whilst on a road, verge or lay-by will be told in no uncertain terms that his actions are unlawful and if he persists in his harassment at some ungodly hour he will be reported to the police. 

However this is unlikely as the parky's I have met, they like to be called countryside rangers, are nice people, and unless you have driven some way off road and churned up the ground you are unlikely to be bothered. 

Finally blaming the minority administration in Holyrood is stupid, this has nothing to do with Holyrood, however it could be the answer, but to do that you have to be organised, you have to petition the parliament, and to do that you need a more convincing argument than it "wasn't me"! 

So what do we actually want?


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## Auld Pharrrt (Feb 27, 2017)

runnach said:


> For me, best way to deal with this unjust situation, is to go elsewhere, that said though, LL&TNP were/are seriously being abused, I seen some of this myself. Another case of the majority being penalised because of a minority group who are only interested in causing mayhem and trashing this beautiful part of our country.



Indeed, I agree with your post entirely ... but I am fortunate that the only part of this area I am liable to use is the short stretch of the A85 between Killin and Tyndrum, I usually head for a couple of places I like to stopover on either of the two roads just out of Tyndrum heading for Oban or Fort William,  both of which are only a few miles outwith these boundaries. 

It is a sad state of affairs for the world renowned Scottish hospitality that it has been deemed necessary to make these arrangements and I do sympathise with those that have had to deal with the crap that has probably been the reason for it all, but I still think it is a sad thing to see happening, at least the small stipend is reasonable for a stopover IMHO but I prefer to remember this bonnie area as being the way it was 40 years ago.


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## alcam (Feb 27, 2017)

delicagirl said:


> indeed it is  but i have seen many laybys where the time allowed for parking is limited by signs and backed up by statute .




In Scotland ?


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## maingate (Feb 27, 2017)

alcam said:


> In Scotland ?



Yes.

You need to read the earlier post by Phil.


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## delicagirl (Feb 27, 2017)

alcam said:


> In Scotland ?




thats got me thinking ....  i  dont know.   

But i suspect we are all going to have to change our approach to Scotland because of the damage done by loutish vanners and campers......


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## 2cv (Feb 27, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Unauthorised Camping
> (7)
> It shall be an offence for any person to sleep overnight in a stationary vehicle within a Management Zone unless:
> (b) the vehicle is on a road.
> ...



What I would have liked would be for those who litter, light fires and overstay to be dealt with. This would take a lot of effort, but no more than has happened by targeting everyone.
On the surface much seems reasonable, but the area has effectively been turned into a giant CC site, with early pre booking essential and vans coralled together in specific places.
Targeting the miscreants won't happen now that the work has been done to affect everyone, just hoping that the model does not spread, remember all this started with a small area on the East shore.


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## caledonia (Feb 27, 2017)

Just another area to avoid. Wild camping is about picking your own spot not being forced into areas that are easy to police. Prebooking and paying to park up beside the Buckfast Brigade is not for me.


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## Deleted member 60834 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wild camping in a Motorhome? Away don't make me laugh, try staying in a tent on top of a mountain or two days trekking into knoydart! Parking a modest Motorhome or camper van is luxury, all mod cons, warm and dry! That is what freedom to roam is! 
This situation was caused by people who think they can just rock up, trash the place and leave, it is the local tax payer and community that have to live with the consequences. I was illegally camping according to some at the weekend, the park authorities were doing work all around and not one approached us! But we had parked in a bay, out of sight of the road. And as you can't pre book to far in advance this should keep the area free, and as for who you park next to, well you never know if the jovial bloke in the van next to you will not kick off after to much vino!  

Anyway some way along the road a van a car and a caravan complete with generator was in a lay by, it looked like they had been there for a while, so obviously they were parking legally.

We will be back, wild camping with our central heating, power shower, sky tv, even the kitchen sink, in the knowledge that our £3 will help keep the environment for future generations. 

I do think it's best to class this as an aire, and as close to wild camping, or wild parking as you can get 30 minutes drive from one of Scotlands most populated cities.

But remember I am not talking about Loch Lomond.


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## Wooie1958 (Feb 27, 2017)

Tried a couple of times in this area several years back and both times we moved on.

The first time we`d settled down for a quiet night watching a bit of telly when in rolled the travellers and virtually blocked us in.

The second time the Buckfast Brigade turned up with their £9.99 Argos tents and set up something that would rival a fekking festival.

Both times we moved on and went to a car park we knew to stay the night, not ideal but better than the other places.

Haven`t tried again in the area and never will.


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## caledonia (Feb 27, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Wild camping in a Motorhome? Away don't make me laugh, try staying in a tent on top of a mountain or two days trekking into knoydart! Parking a modest Motorhome or camper van is luxury, all mod cons, warm and dry! That is what freedom to roam is!
> This situation was caused by people who think they can just rock up, trash the place and leave, it is the local tax payer and community that have to live with the consequences. I was illegally camping according to some at the weekend, the park authorities were doing work all around and not one approached us! But we had parked in a bay, out of sight of the road. And as you can't pre book to far in advance this should keep the area free, and as for who you park next to, well you never know if the jovial bloke in the van next to you will not kick off after to much vino!
> 
> Anyway some way along the road a van a car and a caravan complete with generator was in a lay by, it looked like they had been there for a while, so obviously they were parking legally.
> ...



Wildcamping in a motorhome? Yes that's what we call it on this forum. Why waste 2 days walking to the Old Forge? I mountain biked it in a day. I've done over half of the Munroes and slept on the top of a few to photograph the sunrise but I'm now at that time in life when wildcamping in my wee campervan is more pleasurable.


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## Deleted member 60834 (Feb 27, 2017)

caledonia said:


> Wildcamping in a motorhome? Yes that's what we call it on this forum. Why waste 2 days walking to the Old Forge? I mountain biked it in a day. I've done over half of the Munroes and slept on the top of a few to photograph the sunrise but I'm now at that time in life when wildcamping in my wee campervan is more pleasurable.



Yes agreed, but you aren't camping you are parking? And someone pays for that car park, in Scotland the taxpayer pays, so it is not unreasonable to take £3 for the privilege of parking is some amazing areas? And at the same time protect the environment for future generations, to be honest I disagree with the changes but cannot think of a better way to stop the abuse, can anyone?


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## Wully (Feb 27, 2017)

Just been on there web site ran through a booking request for march the first for 1 night just put in loch lomand and it came back with 4 locations with 3 parking spots on each 9 in total there was another spot but did not say how many places available just say that there's 5 at this other location thats 14 places out of there so called 300 if you look these other spots are caravan sites or for tents so it looks like a big load off tosh to get there legislation passed. Imagine July and only 15 wild camping spots and what happens if you buy a permit for one of these spots you turn up and there's already vans parked then what. I could be wrong with my numbers but not by much . 1st of march is a Wednesday in winter I see trouble ahead.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 27, 2017)

From all I have ever seen the majority of rubbish and damage is caused by day and weekend trippers, breaking trees down for fires no toilet arrangements. Then there is the Tinkers.
I remember the trouble they had with the weekend's in Glecoe in the 60's and 70's 

Alf


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## 1770som (Feb 27, 2017)

vampirequeen said:


> Oh no! We were planning to go there next summer.  We can't afford to stay on the campsites.  What a shame.



Go over to Helensburgh big free car park and some good shops


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## alcam (Feb 27, 2017)

maingate said:


> Yes.
> 
> You need to read the earlier post by Phil.



Read it all now . As far as lay bys go the answer appears to be yes and no


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## maingate (Feb 27, 2017)

alcam said:


> Read it all now . As far as lay bys go the answer appears to be yes and no



This is what puzzles me. A National Park Authority seems to have the power over the Highways Authority and dictate which laybys cannot be used for overnight stops. They also seem to have the power to get around the 1960 Caravan Act by supplying around 30 motorhome/camper Bays for overnighting (at a small fee).

Is this the thin end of the wedge? Which group will be targeted next?

Our Civil Liberties are being eroded a bit at a time. There are already hundreds of miles of coastline in the Uk which have limitations due to being classed as places of Special Scientific Interest. That is all a con trick. It is much cheaper and easier to do it that way than going through legal means and employing expensive Lawyers to draft new bylaws which could be challenged.

Let us see how this pans out around Loch Lomond. If motorhomes are singled out for special attention from Park Rangers and tenters or weekend drunks are not, then we have a problem.

I can remember Terry (runnach) talking to Park Rangers some time ago and they were not blaming motorhomes for the mess in the Park. That might mean nothing as they will have their instructions from above on carrying out the new policy.


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## 2cv (Feb 27, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Yes agreed, but you aren't camping you are parking? And someone pays for that car park, in Scotland the taxpayer pays, so it is not unreasonable to take £3 for the privilege of parking is some amazing areas? And at the same time protect the environment for future generations, to be honest I disagree with the changes but cannot think of a better way to stop the abuse, can anyone?



I can only suggest a way to stop the abuse. The route taken in introducing regimented areas and affecting those who would overnight responsibly with no trace of their stop left means that my suggestion will never become reality.
What I think should have been done is to introduce bylaws to limit the time of stops, prohibit the lighting of fires or running generators and introduce heavy penalties for littering and leaving human waste. Strict enforcement of such laws would mean that those doing no harm could continue their enjoyment whilst the damagers would be removed. Instead we now have both "good" and "bad" campers (or parkers if you prefer) being banned.


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## mitch7880 (Feb 28, 2017)

The only problem with your suggestion is who would pay for the bailiffs to enforce this you don't see lomand trust after five o'clock and the police have enough to do without going into every lay by to check if there is a van without a permit


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## delicagirl (Feb 28, 2017)

2cv said:


> I can only suggest a way to stop the abuse. The route taken in introducing regimented areas and affecting those who would overnight responsibly with no trace of their stop left means that my suggestion will never become reality.
> What I think should have been done is to introduce bylaws to limit the time of stops, prohibit the lighting of fires or running generators and introduce heavy penalties for littering and leaving human waste. Strict enforcement of such laws would mean that those doing no harm could continue their enjoyment whilst the damagers would be removed. Instead we now have both "good" and "bad" campers (or parkers if you prefer) being banned.




The threats of £5000 fines for littering in England are fairly pointless in my view  -  an offence is not committed until after the perpetrator has left the scene of the crime...   and unless there is paperwork with a name and address no one will ever know who did it - and without an eye witness to the actual dumping it will never get to court.


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## mitch7880 (Feb 28, 2017)

The local businesses will be affected the forestry car park above the lade inn got 2 signs on Friday put in by 6 schoolgirls from Stirling 1 teacher mini bus 2 men from lomand trust flat bed lorry with all the Tool's how much permit money payd for that


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## 2cv (Feb 28, 2017)

mitch7880 said:


> The only problem with your suggestion is who would pay for the bailiffs to enforce this you don't see lomand trust after five o'clock and the police have enough to do without going into every lay by to check if there is a van without a permit


j

You're probably right. My suggestion was just a different way to approach things, it probably would only require the same resources as what effectively is a complete ban has.
It seems to be the standard way of dealing with the few causing problems is to ban everyone.


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## petermotorhome (Feb 28, 2017)

Hi just booked for the coming week-end at loch earn only 4 motorhome spaces on the whole loch.Postion D north shore out of 6 locations on loch.


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## Obanboy666 (Mar 1, 2017)

BBC 1 morning news are broadcasting live from Loch Lomand discussing the issue with park rangers and wild campers.


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## Luckheart (Mar 1, 2017)

Just heard the BBC news article. 

Note to self: remember not to leave my burnt out plasma television on the bank of the Loch without the correct permit.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 1, 2017)

Obanboy666 said:


> BBC 1 morning news are broadcasting live from Loch Lomand discussing the issue with park rangers and wild campers.



It's on BBC1 at 7.55.

Here's the story from their website............................Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park camping by-laws come into force - BBC News


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## Wooie1958 (Mar 1, 2017)

wakk44 said:


> It's on BBC1 at 7.55.
> 
> Here's the story from their website............................Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park camping by-laws come into force - BBC News





Just seen that, i`ve set it to record.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 1, 2017)

Just watched this feature on the news and I'm not at all surprised the authorities are trying to crack down on tent camping in the area.Some of the rubbish left and also damage to trees was disgraceful.Unfortunately it will just drive the campers elsewhere in my opinion and trying to witness and prosecute these scrotes will prove to be difficult.I would like to think that more education on respecting the countryside and environment would help but sadly some people have no respect for anything.


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## AuldTam (Mar 1, 2017)

It's absolutely outrageous! I've been wild camping at Trossachs lochs for 50 yrs, nothing new here there has always been a minority of antisocial camping. The park wardens and police already have the powers to prosecute or move people on but they have turned a blind eye in the past. This is just another money spinner and tourists in particular will suffer most.

I see people litter pavements everyday, do we ban people from walking on pavements?


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## Dowel (Mar 1, 2017)

What is this about? 
Copied from: Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park camping by-laws come into force - BBC News




Was this antisocial behaviour, an unfortunate accident or extreme enforcement by Rangers? 
No explanation of the relevance or otherwise of the photo to the BBC News item.


According to table on page 26 of the Camping Development Strategy linked to earlier the total number of motorhome pitches in the camping management zone is 20
http://www.lochlomond-trossachs.org...8-Appendix-1-Camping-Development-Strategy.pdf

Not many spaces but I think most forum members do prefer to avoid large groups of vans. Has anyone seen how these "Motor-home provisions" are set out? 9 at West Loch Lomond and 11 at Trossachs North. Dispersed sensitively in the landscape or crammed together?

Seems short sighted to plan for less than the 800 pitches (mainly for tents) requirement referred to by the "Ramblers".

But text accompanying the same table says: 
"By continuing to invest and bring forward camping opportunities over 2017-2019 the aspiration is to achieve the levels of camping opportunities shown below:" 
Which is shown in the table as 787 total in the four locations. 

I assume that the "30 pitches at Sallochy Campsite in East Loch Lomond and 9 Pitches at Loch Lubnaig in Trossachs North" will become part of the "Proposed Your Park campsite pitches 2017"


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## mitch7880 (Mar 1, 2017)

Where have the wardens been the last few years when all the damage was being done and how many season tickets for the fishing are they going to lose as last season was terrible are they trying to destroy the lively hoods of all the local shops there doing a good job of it


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## AuldTam (Mar 1, 2017)

runnach said:


> When you view the mess these morons leave, attempts to chop down indigenous mature trees (green wood, that's how bright they are) No wonder step have been taken to eliminate/reduce these issues.
> 
> Unfortunately, decent country loving folks have to suffer, too!!!



That's the way it's been for as far back as I can remember, there's always been a minority of zoomers. There are already laws in place, have been for many years, to deal with this type behaviour but the Rangers or Police don't enforce it. Now, all of a sudden, we are to believe Rangers will be checking permits and enforcing the new bylaws. If the Rangers have time to patrol the Trossachs and check permits why the hell didn't they do that in the past and deal with the zoomers.

They are showing a few pictures of extreme antisocial behaviour, isolated incidents which have taken place over many years. 

Thousands of wild campers visit the Trossachs every year to walk the West Highland Way, they don't behave this way and they post thousands of pictures and videos on social media showing how they have enjoyed themselves. 

Please don't believe everything they say, many foi requests have already been sent to the people behind this, it is alleged that they held closed meetings with local land owners and inadequate public consultations.

It was also stated on TV this morning that the new bylaws will be reviewed n 3 years, utter tosh, bylaws can be revoked at any time, they have become so arrogant they think they are the law.


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## AuldTam (Mar 3, 2017)

runnach said:


> I have visited Loch Chon on only two occasions. On each occasion we were confronted by park rangers, 2nd time they wanted us to move, we had a chat, we stayed, never been back since, as they made the rules clearer to me, but overall, they are decent guys. Just prior to us leaving on 2nd occasion (approx 010.30hrs, a couple transit vans with beer swilling east Europeans pulled in, then proceeded to set up tents. I have to say, if I were a park warden, I wouldn't fancy taking them on if things got wild and, we all know Police Jokeland are as much good as a chocolate fireguard.



I doubt any of us would expect the Park Rangers to confront beer swilling zoomers but I do expect them to report it to the police, nothing wrong with keeping a safe distance until the police arrive then give witness statements, if required. I also expect them to report littering and fly tipping, in my experience they don't.

I can't see how new bylaws and permits will solve the problem. Taking your example, I just can't see them approaching zoomers to check permits, however I can envisage them approaching people who already respect the outdoors, the law abiding people, so how does this stop antisocial behaviour?


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## AuldTam (Mar 3, 2017)

Randonneur said:


> When we were up there in august we overnighted at duck bay which is south of Luss and does'nt look to be included in the camping management zone. There were quite a few other vans overnighting there including a big american RV with his side slide out over the pavement.



Do you mean on the roads beside duck bay? If so, that's the roads network the LLTNPA have no authority there or most of the lay-bys


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## AuldTam (Mar 3, 2017)

As for the LLTNPA statement concerning wildcampers leaving litter behind and damaging the woodland, etc...these are pictures from LLTNP and CNP this is how they treat the national parks.



















Some of the pictures are of works that were completed some time ago, they did not reinstate the land. 'Leave no trace' they're having a laugh!


It also appears that they are paving the way for another flamingo land type venture..


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## 2cv (Mar 3, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> Do you mean on the roads beside duck bay? If so, that's the roads network the LLTNPA have no authority there or most of the lay-bys



I may be mistaken, but I understand that the new bylaws of February 24th included overnight parking in such areas after the initial legislation left this open as a loophole.
It may be difficult to enforce, but with the draconian fines and a criminal record at stake it will be a brave person who tries their luck.


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## AuldTam (Mar 3, 2017)

2cv said:


> I may be mistaken, but I understand that the new bylaws of February 24th included overnight parking in such areas after the initial legislation left this open as a loophole.
> It may be difficult to enforce, but with the draconian fines and a criminal record at stake it will be a brave person who tries their luck.



they don't have any say on roads or lay-bys unless they are owned by the national park. They have signs everywhere on any car parking areas they control.


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## 2cv (Mar 3, 2017)

Certainly section 14 suggests there is nothing to stop anyone staying in a motorhome on a road or public layby Camping Byelaws: Q&As
Anyone wishing to peruse the whole document, http://www.thisisyourpark.org.uk/download/byelaws-2017/?wpdmdl=2306

I can't help thinking that all the effort put into producing this and the regimented camping areas might have been better spent on prosecuting the miscreants under existing powers.


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## AuldTam (Mar 4, 2017)

These photographs were taken at Firkin Point, Loch Lomond on Thursday 2nd March, day after the new bylaws and permits came into play.

This is the view from the Campervan pitches;





These are zone A and zone B for tents only;









Here is a phot of the services your paying for;



The LLTNPA assured The local authority and minister they were ready to go by Match 1st, doesn't look like it to me. Imagine the poor people who bought permits to camp at Firkin Point this weekend, it's outrageous!


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## AuldTam (Mar 4, 2017)

Forgot to post this photo which shows the layout, the Motorhome pitches have no view of the loch;




I think it was on this forum that there was a debate as to whether signs not including the actual bylaw were not legal, if so they have made yet another almighty bloomer!


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## alcam (Mar 4, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> As for the LLTNPA statement concerning wildcampers leaving litter behind and damaging the woodland, etc...these are pictures from LLTNP and CNP this is how they treat the national parks.
> 
> View attachment 51319
> 
> ...



Send the pictures to the media 
Just saw runnach post yes send to your MSP too


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## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 4, 2017)

Or do as I do, avoid the area in the high season because of the midges and halfwits and go in the winter, no fines or midges or drunken twats, simple..happy days


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## alcam (Mar 4, 2017)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> Or do as I do, avoid the area in the high season because of the midges and halfwits and go in the winter, no fines or midges or drunken twats, simple..happy days



Agreed ! Just noticed Murdo Fraser MSP for Perthshire wants ban introduced in his area


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## mistericeman (Mar 4, 2017)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> Or do as I do, avoid the area in the high season because of the midges and halfwits and go in the winter, no fines or midges or drunken twats, simple..happy days



The philosophy I apply to most areas...... ;-)


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## 2cv (Mar 5, 2017)

alcam said:


> Agreed ! Just noticed Murdo Fraser MSP for Perthshire wants ban introduced in his area



I am afraid that this is definitely the thin end of the wedge.


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## Wooie1958 (Mar 5, 2017)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> Or do as I do, avoid the area in the high season because of the midges and halfwits and go in the winter, no fines or midges or drunken twats, simple..happy days





Here here      :wave:     couldn`t have put it better myself      :dance:


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## Jazzbow (Mar 5, 2017)

I'm a bit gutted about this, I fear this is the shape of things to come. I don't believe that it's going to be particularly helpful in tackling  the anti social behaviour problem because the offenders don't give a **** anyway! It's the likes of us that will abide by the law. I have a friend who lives up by Rowerdennan and I know it was pretty awful for him and his neighbours, but surely existing laws should have been used? I wonder how this is going to be 'policed' and how much that is costing?
Does anyone know if there are any organisitions challenging this? E.g. Ramblers clubs? Should we get a petition going?


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## 2cv (Mar 5, 2017)

I am not a fan of the Scottish parliament, a very expensive home for failed politicians. Usually its the SNP who are screwing things up there, but this annoying individual is Scottish Conservative. The best thing would be to save a fortune and get rid of them all, accept it as a miserably failed experiment.


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## 2cv (Mar 5, 2017)

Anyone wishing to give there views to this sad individual he may be contacted here Contact | Murdo Fraser MSP


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 5, 2017)

Jazzbow said:


> I'm a bit gutted about this, I fear this is the shape of things to come. I don't believe that it's going to be particularly helpful in tackling  the anti social behaviour problem because the offenders don't give a **** anyway! It's the likes of us that will abide by the law. I have a friend who lives up by Rowerdennan and I know it was pretty awful for him and his neighbours, but surely existing laws should have been used? I wonder how this is going to be 'policed' and how much that is costing?
> Does anyone know if there are any organisitions challenging this? E.g. Ramblers clubs? Should we get a petition going?



Too late now to be considering challenging the legislation.   Objections were put in at the consultation stage pre legislation 3 or more years back.  The provision for motorhome services came as a result.   The initial proposal was £10 to dispose of waste but you had to book to do so.   No provision for parking except on existing or new caravan sites.  The provision of the motorhome only parking was a result of the consultation.   We also pointed out that prebooking was not the way to go and suggested that a permit on the lines of those for boats on the loch with a sticker and number for authorised wild parking.

This does not affect the genuine wild camper much as not many of them want to spend a weekend along the loch shore.   The existing wild camping law is still applicable and encouraged away from the shore area.

Laybys were included because of a certain group who towed caravans and left them for the season in laybys travelling back and forth in their cars at weekends.   Suggestions were made on how to deal with this issue at the time.

There was little support at the time from the motorhome community at the consultation stage.


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## Jazzbow (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks John, sorry I missed out on the consultation stage


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## Straad (Mar 6, 2017)

*Other views are available*



2cv said:


> I am not a fan of the Scottish parliament, a very expensive home for failed politicians. Usually its the SNP who are screwing things up there, but this annoying individual is Scottish Conservative. The best thing would be to save a fortune and get rid of them all, accept it as a miserably failed experiment.


Hi 2cv, as I got my erse skelped the last time for challenging  a political viewpoint on a wild camping forum may I simply point out that other viewpoints are available. Anyway, IMHO, beautiful though it is, Loch Lomond-side is over-rated and over commercialised. Give me the Angus Glens any day!


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## Deleted member 60834 (Mar 6, 2017)

I was aware of the consultation, and agreed with its aims, no matter what was proposed someone would be unhappy, but the fact remained things had to change. But can I point out this has little to do with the Scottish government, and even less with the SNP, and to use this as a SNP bad forum not only misses the point but destroys any actually sensible contribution you are trying to make and as for this new tactic of wishing the parliament closed, dream on that will never happen. 

It is a sad fact of life that so many are quick to shout for their rights, but dammed quiet on their responsibilities. 

Anyway I have kept away from wild camping next to the loch, and have used the campsites. Walking back from the pub can be a education. So I for one welcome the attempts to better manage the countryside so everyone can enjoy it.


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## 2cv (Mar 6, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> I was aware of the consultation, and agreed with its aims, no matter what was proposed someone would be unhappy, but the fact remained things had to change. But can I point out this has little to do with the Scottish government, and even less with the SNP, and to use this as a SNP bad forum not only misses the point but destroys any actually sensible contribution you are trying to make and as for this new tactic of wishing the parliament closed, dream on that will never happen.
> 
> It is a sad fact of life that so many are quick to shout for their rights, but dammed quiet on their responsibilities.
> 
> Anyway I have kept away from wild camping next to the loch, and have used the campsites. Walking back from the pub can be a education. So I for one welcome the attempts to better manage the countryside so everyone can enjoy it.



Fine for those who prefer campsites, but camping away from sites is likely to be affected everywhere if as seems likely this spreads.


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## 2cv (Mar 8, 2017)

Just received a response from Mr. Munro having written to complain about his support for the extension of the Loch Lomond rules. He actually appears to have a far more sensible view than originally suspected.



*Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your message in relation to motor homes.

I was rather confused to receive your message, as I cannot remember making any comment on motor homes in recent years.

The only thing that I can imagine that you are referring to was the decision by the Loch Lomonds and Trossachs National Parks some years ago to ban informal camping in certain sites around Loch Lomond. At that time I raised the concern that this would simply displace those informally camping around Loch Lomond to the lochs of Perthshire, including Loch Earn, Loch Tummel, and Loch Rannoch, where there already has been a serious problem with anti-social behaviour from informal campers at the loch sides. Fortunately, a combination of better policing, and poorer summer weather seem to have meant that this problem is not as serious as it was some years ago, and this is not therefore an issue that I have raised for some years.

I appreciate that in all these issues there is a balance to be struck between the rights of those who wish to enjoy the countryside, and the rights of local residents not to have their quality of life disturbed. I certainly would also agree with your statement that we need to see better enforcement of current regulations before new ones are introduced.

I hope that this is helpful.

With kind regards,
Murdo

Murdo Fraser MSP
Member for Mid Scotland & Fife (Scottish Conservatives)
Shadow Cabinet Secretary for Finance  *


Maybe there is still a hope that this will not spread, and the alternative action of persuing the wrong-doers may be followed.


-


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## alcam (Mar 8, 2017)

2cv said:


> I am not a fan of the Scottish parliament, a very expensive home for failed politicians. Usually its the SNP who are screwing things up there, but this annoying individual is Scottish Conservative. The best thing would be to save a fortune and get rid of them all, accept it as a miserably failed experiment.



Think , perhaps , you are on the wrong forum ?


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## 2cv (Mar 8, 2017)

alcam said:


> Think , perhaps , you are on the wrong forum ?



Not really. By their setting up of qangos like LLTNP they are having a direct and detrimental effect on the motorhoming style that we discuss on this forum.
As it happens the particular MSP who particularly riled me over this actually appears to have a balanced view on the subject of overnighting in motorhomes and agrees that it would be best to use current legislation to properly control miscreants.
I can't think of a more appropriate forum to discuss such things.


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## alcam (Mar 8, 2017)

2cv said:


> Not really. By their setting up of qangos like LLTNP they are having a direct and detrimental effect on the motorhoming style that we discuss on this forum.
> As it happens the particular MSP who particularly riled me over this actually appears to have a balanced view on the subject of overnighting in motorhomes and agrees that it would be best to use current legislation to properly control miscreants.
> I can't think of a more appropriate forum to discuss such things.



So you are suggesting that nobody should look after national parks etc ? Ridiculous , I'm sure there are similar organisations all over Britain doing similar jobs . As I'm sure you are well aware of ?
You are , again ,  just using a thread to air your political bias . I think it is inappropriate .


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## 2cv (Mar 8, 2017)

alcam said:


> So you are suggesting that nobody should look after national parks etc ? Ridiculous , I'm sure there are similar organisations all over Britain doing similar jobs . As I'm sure you are well aware of ?
> You are , again ,  just using a thread to air your political bias . I think it is inappropriate .



You are welcome to your opinion. 
I think that the effect of some political decisions on our hobby are worth some discussion.
Similar organisations in other parts of Britain doing similar jobs have not yet taken the draconian steps that LLTNP have. You referred to an MSP who had suggested that these policies should spread (don't forget that stopping in the wrong place could lead to a criminal record) though this was some time ago and he now appears to have a more reasonable view. I don't think discussion of the matter is at all inappropriate. Burying heads in the sand will not make these threats go away.


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## AuldTam (Mar 8, 2017)

runnach said:


> As you were actually there, Tam, forward your info to your MSP. Explain the debacle.



I didn't take these pictures just copied from a Facebook group I'm a member of, there's plenty more too. Some people are gathering evidence to show how the LLTNPA is actually detrimental to the Trossachs.

The day the Trossachs became a national park was the beginning of the end for me. 
I just heard a planning application has been submitted to build 22 new homes directly on the west highland way, so how does that conserve our areas of natural beauty? 
Also rumours abound of a flamingo land style park on land that is otherwise worthless. Another example of how LLTNPA Board Members are in cahoots with other local landowners, let's see what happens next.


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## AuldTam (Mar 9, 2017)

runnach said:


> I am really not too familiar with Loch Lomond area from a WC point of view, I'm more familiar with some areas of the Trossachs, though.
> 
> For balance, if worthless land can be utilised to build a tourist facility (if true) then let them carry on, as income and jobs are generated. Planning application, if granted, could be a useful tool? But, I witnessed myself, my own local planning authority refuse an application, to then see refusal overturned by LRB (local review body) which are basically councillors who have no clue of planning rules and regs. IMHO, this is when the brown envelopes come into play.
> 
> ...



I don't have a link for the planning application yet. Apparently it went to the Local Authority end of February and now has to be considered (passed) by LLTNPA at the next Board meeting.

The land isn't worthless to local wildlife.


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## alcam (Mar 9, 2017)

2cv said:


> You are welcome to your opinion.
> I think that the effect of some political decisions on our hobby are worth some discussion.
> Similar organisations in other parts of Britain doing similar jobs have not yet taken the draconian steps that LLTNP have. You referred to an MSP who had suggested that these policies should spread (don't forget that stopping in the wrong place could lead to a criminal record) though this was some time ago and he now appears to have a more reasonable view. I don't think discussion of the matter is at all inappropriate. Burying heads in the sand will not make these threats go away.



Discuss away . Fail to see why you insist on inflicting your irrelevant political bias on these matters ? You appear to be somewhat obsessed , quite unhealthily so . I did indeed refer to an MSP's comments but never mentioned his party . I left that to you


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## 2cv (Mar 9, 2017)

alcam said:


> Discuss away . Fail to see why you insist on inflicting your irrelevant political bias on these matters ? You appear to be somewhat obsessed , quite unhealthily so . I did indeed refer to an MSP's comments but never mentioned his party . I left that to you



Maybe it would be best if you were to start another thread, suggested title "Loch Lomond and Trossachs politics free". Should be riveting.


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## alcam (Mar 9, 2017)

2cv said:


> Maybe it would be best if you were to start another thread, suggested title "Loch Lomond and Trossachs politics free". Should be relevant.



Sorted


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## Deleted member 60834 (Mar 9, 2017)

Anyway we are booked for the Trossachs, and will post pictures of what we find, one is locked in and the other is not, incidentally when booking we were made aware of one parking area that is not covered by the camping ban? Strange as it's a good area to park up and we thought it was was, but we received written conformation from the park authority that it's exempt! :camper::camper::cheers:


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## The laird (Mar 9, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Anyway we are booked for the Trossachs, and will post pictures of what we find, one is locked in and the other is not, incidentally when booking we were made aware of one parking area that is not covered by the camping ban? Strange as it's a good area to park up and we thought it was was, but we received written conformation from the park authority that it's exempt! :camper::camper::cheers:



Can you post in members only section the area they stated out of interest 
Thanks Gordon


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## Deleted member 60834 (Mar 10, 2017)

Done.


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## AuldTam (Mar 10, 2017)

Interesting read on the debacle that is LLTNPA, today's item on the most recent board meeting is good.

http://http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2017/03/10/implementation-camping-byelaws-lltnpa-board/


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## Dowel (Mar 11, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> incidentally when booking we were made aware of one parking area that is not covered by the camping ban? Strange as it's a good area to park up and we thought it was, but we received written conformation from the park authority that it's exempt!



Thanks Rita and Andrew for posting location in exempt area. We only visited Loch Lomond once and didn't stay long so no experts but...
Comparing that location with the restricted areas shown on the map at the link below I can see that it is not restricted. However, I could not immediately see any other likely unrestricted spots.
It would be helpful if the LLTNPA marked all the places in unrestricted areas where motor caravans might be parked on this map but if they did it might be too clear a statement of how few there are and they would quickly be full up too.

http://www.thisisyourpark.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Overview_of-CMZ.jpg

LLTNPA say the Camping Management Zones cover less than 4% of the National Park but I guess that  the area actually physically accessible to motor Caravans and worth "camping" at is little more than 4%.

Might be interesting (or depressing) to overlay the WC POIs on the LLTNPA map. 

Hope you have a good trip and find good places to stop.


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## 2cv (Apr 1, 2017)

I just read a post on FB from someone who was in one of the parks outside the zone and was disturbed by the police to inform him that he needed a permit to stay there. Obviously there is no crime in the area to keep them busy.


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## Jimhunterj4 (Apr 1, 2017)

2cv said:


> I just read a post on FB from someone who was in one of the parks outside the zone and was disturbed by the police to inform him that he needed a permit to stay there. Obviously there is no crime in the area to keep them busy.



That sounds just about right


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## artb (Apr 1, 2017)

*better  avoid this aera ?*

hello,
I wanted to visit Loch Lomond , coming all the way up from Austria in the first week of July, on my way to Ireland. But after reading this thread ist seems to be better to avoid this area or pass through with no overnight stay. The few continentals, going north, don't even know about this changes in Scotland. Very sad to read this. By the way, we want to visit Edinburgh. Any good place to stop overnight ? CP is also no problem.
Greetings from the South of Austria with 21 degrees today. My cherry trees here are blossoming.


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## AuldTam (Apr 1, 2017)

artb said:


> hello,
> I wanted to visit Loch Lomond , coming all the way up from Austria in the first week of July, on my way to Ireland. But after reading this thread ist seems to be better to avoid this area or pass through with no overnight stay. The few continentals, going north, don't even know about this changes in Scotland. Very sad to read this. By the way, we want to visit Edinburgh. Any good place to stop overnight ? CP is also no problem.
> Greetings from the South of Austria with 21 degrees today. My cherry trees here are blossoming.



Loch Lomond is worth visiting. We, the locals, are annoyed about what's recently transpired and feel that in particular tourists will suffer most from the new bylaws introduced in March. If you find a vacant permit spot you can take it and book your permit online once your parked up. However, it's not always possible to get a signal at Loch Lomond and this has been brought to the attention on the park authority. They state that Rangers will take this into consideration and you can book retrospectively, so if you are approached by a Ranger just explain the situation. Permit places are only enforced between 7pm til 7am.

Please don't miss out on visiting this beautiful place because of a shambolicly run park authority


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## 2cv (Apr 1, 2017)

Just read a report on FB from someone who paid the £3 to stay at Lochearnhead. They passed areas full of vans and revellers who also had fires lit and the loud noise went on till 3 in the morning.
It sounds even less attractive than it was!


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## jeanette (Apr 1, 2017)

2cv said:


> Just read a report on FB from someone who paid the £3 to stay at Lochearnhead. They passed areas full of vans and revellers who also had fires lit and the loud noise went on till 3 in the morning.
> It sounds even less attractive than it was!



I've read that as well 2cv where they had the tables and chairs out also there was caravans they think they paid the £3 and then informed their friends,but they also said that they made it very awkward for passing if I could post it on here I would but sadly can't


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## Jimhunterj4 (Apr 2, 2017)

2cv said:


> Just read a report on FB from someone who paid the £3 to stay at Lochearnhead. They passed areas full of vans and revellers who also had fires lit and the loud noise went on till 3 in the morning.
> It sounds even less attractive than it was!



Seen caravans with awnings out in the lay-bys of lo heart head before, also the burned out shells of caravans, I visited there once before out of holiday season great place to stay but there's no way I would be anywhere near it on a bank holiday


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## AuldTam (Apr 2, 2017)

2cv said:


> Just read a report on FB from someone who paid the £3 to stay at Lochearnhead. They passed areas full of vans and revellers who also had fires lit and the loud noise went on till 3 in the morning.
> It sounds even less attractive than it was!



Don't worry mate, people wearing suits siting behind big desks have stated that the new bylaws will put and end to all that nonsense....aye right!

Btw have you heard that (shall remain nameless) of LLTNPA has just had there house refurbished, acquired adjoining land and put up fences and barbed wire so as to stop access to the loch side behind there house.


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## 2cv (May 25, 2017)

The debacle continues The LLTNPA's selective application of the camping byelaws - parkswatchscotland


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## AuldTam (May 25, 2017)

2cv said:


> The debacle continues The LLTNPA's selective application of the camping byelaws - parkswatchscotland



It has now descended into a farce, what's worse is some of the LLTNPA Board members have been caught out not declaring a interest in decisions made at board meetings which financially benefits them personally, disgusting!

But as we all know they will probably walk away Scot free without facing the consequences.


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## The laird (May 25, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> It has now descended into a farce, what's worse is some of the LLTNPA Board members have been caught out not declaring an personal interest in decisions made at board meetings which financially benefits them personally, disgusting!
> 
> But as we all know they will probably walk away Scot free without facing the consequences.



Agree 110% with you on this!


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## 2cv (May 26, 2017)

I find it annoying that so much effort is going into producing unfair and unworkable by laws which seem to be having little effect in resolving the problems when with a fraction of the effort and expense previous powers could have been used to solve the problems.
These farcical measures are serious in that they can result in a criminal record with all that that entails. How ridiculous that it is a criminal offence in theory to stay on one of their campsites or at a friends house, and how unfair the implementation singling out motorhome users.


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## 2cv (Jul 5, 2017)

Latest update as the farce plays out The unlawful application of the camping byelaws to campervans - parkswatchscotland
An excellently written blog I think.


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## Wully (Jul 5, 2017)

Here's the good bit


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## 2cv (Jul 5, 2017)

runnach said:


> Bill, what concerns me is, LL&TNP have obviously realised their mega fubar, hence this retraction. With this hindsight, what will be their next move to punish us???



It's very annoying that the money they have spent on this so far could have been put to good use. It will be even more annoying if they spend yet more on the persecution of folk doing no harm and just trying to enjoy themselves when there are perfectly adequate laws available already to deal with those causing damage and general annoyance.


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## CarlandHels (Jul 6, 2017)

*Drive on past*

We were up at Loch Lomond a couple of weeks ago for a couple of days/nights, one night wc in a quiet layby and 2 nights on a site at the cost of £42.50 
After reading all this i have decided to just keep on driving and completely forget about going back to this area. That was the first and last time that we will go to that area.. Seems confusing to me as to where you can and can't park with a motorcaravan. So it's further north for us from now on.. 

Such a shame!!!!


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## Deleted member 60834 (Jul 6, 2017)

Ok a few facts, now I am not talking about Loch Lomond in particular, but the trossachs area in general.  I have been in contact with the parks authority since the permit system came into being, and yes I agree wholeheartedly with the stated aim of the system. We must remember that this area around Aberfoyle is not wild or rural, at least not since the 80's, it is a mixture or farming, forest, and leisure industries, all competing for their agenda to be upmost on the minds of the park authorities. 

Into this mix we find ourselves, and our demands that the ability to park our Motorhome's wherever we like should be unfettered, well sorry life is not like that, instead of shouting for our perceived rights, we all should be actively engaging with the authority, encouraging them to make available the type of facilities that meet our expectations, rest assured other vested interests have been doing that for some considerable time. And be under no illusions these posts will be read by employees of the authorities, who I have found to be as sympathetic and accommodating as they can be, in fact as I posted on another thred they have started in writing that we are free to overnight in areas where the permits were removed along with many others. 

Finally the permit system has not worked in some areas, so the park has responded to constructive criticism and adapted, that should be welcomed, as these changes benefited us most of all.

EMAILS from Loch Lomond Park Authority, 

"People with campervans and motorhomes can use lochshore laybys to stop and rest (including sleeping overnight if necessary), but encampment on a road (including laybys) is an offence under road traffic legislation and will be managed by Police Scotland accordingly, in cooperation with landowners. ~ It should be noted and clarified with you that these areas where permits were previously in place, such as Bocastle, are available for you to park up and stay at without the need for a permit. In fact you can now park up and stay at any layby or site in the park as you will have done in the years previous. The only exception to this is the Park Authority and Forestry Commission sites at Firkin Point, Inverulgas and Three Lochs Forest Drive which still require permits to be bought."


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## AuldTam (Jul 6, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Ok a few facts, now I am not talking about Loch Lomond in particular, but the trossachs area in general.  I have been in contact with the parks authority since the permit system came into being, and yes I agree wholeheartedly with the stated aim of the system. We must remember that this area around Aberfoyle is not wild or rural, at least not since the 80's, it is a mixture or farming, forest, and leisure industries, all competing for their agenda to be upmost on the minds of the park authorities.
> 
> Into this mix we find ourselves, and our demands that the ability to park our Motorhome's wherever we like should be unfettered, well sorry life is not like that, instead of shouting for our perceived rights, we all should be actively engaging with the authority, encouraging them to make available the type of facilities that meet our expectations, rest assured other vested interests have been doing that for some considerable time. And be under no illusions these posts will be read by employees of the authorities, who I have found to be as sympathetic and accommodating as they can be, in fact as I posted on another thred they have started in writing that we are free to overnight in areas where the permits were removed along with many others.
> 
> Finally the permit system has not worked in some areas, so the park has responded to constructive criticism and adapted, that should be welcomed, as these changes benefited us most of all.



Ahh! So it's the motorhomers fault then, I'm glad your few facts cleared that up.

The LLTNPA only engage with the public on there terms. Just have a read through there latest public consultation. 

There are more than enough measures already in place to deal with law breakers, perhaps the money would have been better spent on funding more police officers to deal with the ghastly motorhomers.


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## Deleted member 60834 (Jul 6, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> Ahh! So it's the motorhomers fault then, I'm glad your few facts cleared that up.
> 
> The LLTNPA only engage with the public on there terms. Just have a read through there latest public consultation.
> 
> There are more than enough measures in place to deal with law breakers, perhaps the money would have been better spent on funding more police officers to deal with the ghastly motorhomers.



I don't understand how you would come to that conclusion from my post, so I have added the information I received from the park authority and amended my post.


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## petermotorhome (Jul 6, 2017)

*loch Lomond and Trossachs*

Hi just have been refunded 2 nights stay last March at Loch Earn 4.


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## AuldTam (Jul 6, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> I don't understand how you would come to that conclusion from my post, so I have added the information I received from the park authority and amended my post.



It's down to poor management that zoomers can show up to have booze parties and make a mess. There are sufficient laws already in place to deal with them. Places of natural beauty are there for us all to enjoy wether camping in a tent, motorhome or caravan. 

The LLTNPA think they are a law unto themselves and can do as they please, this attitude has backfired on them. I hope an independent investigation takes place and the people responsible for this farce and waste of public money are dealt with.

Turning the Trossachs into a National Park has been a disaster, Tom Weir has been proven correct.


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## Deleted member 60834 (Jul 7, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> It's down to poor management that zoomers can show up to have booze parties and make a mess. There are sufficient laws already in place to deal with them. Places of natural beauty are there for us all to enjoy wether camping in a tent, motorhome or caravan.
> 
> The LLTNPA think they are a law unto themselves and can do as they please, this attitude has backfired on them. I hope an independent investigation takes place and the people responsible for this farce and waste of public money are dealt with.
> 
> Turning the Trossachs into a National Park has been a disaster, Tom Weir has been proven correct.



There is a saying the road to ruin is paved with good intentions, if we didn't have national parks then planning would be given carte blanche to any unscrupulous developer, and soon the area would be lost forever, the fact that the management so far has been a little amateurish is unfortunate to say the least. Unfortunately it's not just the park but users of the park who demand or exercise their self appointed rights, and completely ignore their responsibilities. 
Don't worry when Scotland finally sees sense and makes me King, I will soon sort the wee nose picker's out.


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## antiquesam (Jul 11, 2017)

Reading through this has made my understanding of where I can and can't park as clear as mud. Result - Steer clear altogether.


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## AuldTam (Jul 11, 2017)

antiquesam said:


> Reading through this has made my understanding of where I can and can't park as clear as mud. Result - Steer clear altogether.



There's a very informative website called parkswatchscotland, it's a lot of reading but tells a very different story of what's going on within our National Park Authorities. Incompetence and corruption at the highest level over a long period, some of those responsible have moved on but hopefully, one day, an independent investigation will take place.


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## antiquesam (Jul 11, 2017)

AuldTam said:


> There's a very informative website called parkswatchscotland, it's a lot of reading but tells a very different story of what's going on within our National Park Authorities. Incompetence and corruption at the highest level over a long period, some of those responsible have moved on but hopefully, one day, an independent investigation will take place.


I've tried that website and the mud hasn't yet cleared, but I'm seeing a lot of complaints about incompetence, or arguably, fraud by the National Parks Authority.


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## AuldTam (Jul 11, 2017)

antiquesam said:


> I've tried that website and the mud hasn't yet cleared, but I'm seeing a lot of complaints about incompetence, or arguably, fraud by the National Parks Authority.



Exactly, incompetence and fraud, so we're back to 'park where you like' as long as you don't behave anti socially or the cops will deal with you. The way it was before LLTNPA ruined it!


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## Deleted member 60834 (Jul 12, 2017)

Incompetence from the top maybe, But Fraud (actually that law is not known in Scotland)? are you serious? are you stating the park authorities had a "felonious" intention to deceive, but only in the specific areas no longer covered by the permit system, that's one helluva completed deception, and for so little gain! :lol-053:

And as for the park authority destroying Loch Lomond and the trossachs, I think we have reached "Maximus argumentum ad absurdum" the park are responsible for deciding over 300 planning applications per year including rejection of large developments, and this involves them facing legions of highly paid lawyers who are trying every means possible to open the park for their clients to build upon.   

Instead of mad rants, that only portray the motorhome community as crabbit whingers (to mix my Scots with Proto-Germanic) wouldn't we be better served by campaigning for proper facilities? Areas for wild camping existed well before the park came into being and still do, in cases within a literal stones throw from the permitted area. Better to be inside pissing out perhaps? 

So why don't we all email this to the Park  https://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forum...ping-drive-tourism-boost-for-hawick-1-4497053

on info@lochlomond-trossachs.org  or write to  Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park Authority Carrochan Carrochan Road Balloch G83 8EG And argue our case, as a community, an organisation, our camping may be "Wild" no reason for our arguments to so be.


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## AuldTam (Jul 12, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Incompetence from the top maybe, But Fraud (actually that law is not known in Scotland)? are you serious? are you stating the park authorities had a "felonious" intention to deceive, but only in the specific areas no longer covered by the permit system, that's one helluva completed deception, and for so little gain! :lol-053:
> 
> And as for the park authority destroying Loch Lomond and the trossachs, I think we have reached "Maximus argumentum ad absurdum" the park are responsible for deciding over 300 planning applications per year including rejection of large developments, and this involves them facing legions of highly paid lawyers who are trying every means possible to open the park for their clients to build upon.
> 
> ...




Various campaigns are already ongoing on behalf of various groups of park users and have been for some time. What has being going on since LLTNPA's inception is slowly becoming public knowledge involving,secret meetings, local landowners, board members, local councillors, clear conflicts of interest, LLTNPA employees buying buildings and land within the park for personal use, demolition of a building and a new house built on its footprint, putting up fences and barbed wire without permission. Charging people for parking on the roads network and installing unauthorized signage, ignoring foi requests, the list goes on and on.

Thankfully some campaigners/park users have legal backgrounds and are offering legal advise and whistleblowers are also passing on information. Hence why last week LLTNPA suspended all permit charges and will reimburse everyone who has bought a permit since they were introduced on 1st March 2017. 

We are now back to how it was before, should anyone behave antisocially or break any other laws in the Trossachs the police will deal with them, not park rangers.

There actions trying to stop right of access and these stupid camping permits has been the catalyst that has uncovered much larger scale 'fraud'. I say fraud because I don't know the legal term in Scots law, however I'm sure every other reader recognises a fraud when they see it.


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## antiquesam (Jul 12, 2017)

Rita and Andrew said:


> Incompetence from the top maybe, But Fraud (actually that law is not known in Scotland)? are you serious? are you stating the park authorities had a "felonious" intention to deceive, but only in the specific areas no longer covered by the permit system, that's one helluva completed deception, and for so little gain! :lol-053:
> 
> If I illegally demanded money from you outwith my right to that money I would be committing a fraud, the law does not allow a plea of ignorance I believe. Why is it different for the park authority?


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## Deleted member 60834 (Jul 12, 2017)

Not all permits are suspended, therefore they still recognise they have a right to charge, there are several cases still pending in Dumbarton court that are still ongoing, so it appears that the law stands therefore no claim for money without lawful authority has been made, where there has been dubiety the park has refunded those sums. 

Regardless of any allegations of malpractice in public office by individuals, that will be dealt with by the authorities in due course. And to be honest is just a side show. 

But you can't dam the whole nation parks idea just because of what a blogger with an agenda says or what you read in a paper. 

My point is the park is going to be in existence for a long time after we have gone, our focus should be getting our agenda on the table. If not then we sound like silly old men who rant about the government, and when you ask them who they voted for say, they don't as it's a waste of their time! 

Again it's better to be inside the tent pissing out!


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