# "daft question" thread!



## herecomesbod (Jul 17, 2013)

can we use this thread to ask all those silly niggly little questions that we may have (ok, so i seem to have plenty) ... please humour me, i am hoping that if others put their questions alongside mine, i wont feel such a numpty!!!


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## herecomesbod (Jul 17, 2013)

so to start... i will fire away with ....
... is it really 'wrong' to forget to turn my gas bottle to the 'off' position before driving off??!!


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## dave and mary (Jul 17, 2013)

This will get me in trouble may be but been m/hing since 1967 and the only time I have ever turned my gas of is when I change the bottle. :drive:      :drive:


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## Robmac (Jul 17, 2013)

herecomesbod said:


> so to start... i will fire away with ....
> ... is it really 'wrong' to forget to turn my gas bottle to the 'off' position before driving off??!!



Mines never been switched off since I've had the van.


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## vindiboy (Jul 17, 2013)

It's called risk assessment, like smoking, you may or may not get Cancer, if you do you are dead, just like gas bottle  explosion and fire, the choice is yours.


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## n brown (Jul 17, 2013)

first of all ,please don't apologise for asking about something you don't know-that's how you find out stuff! second,for your own peace of mind,check to see that your gas bottle cupboard has a drop out hole drilled through the floor to allow any leakage of gas to escape[it's heavier than air,like water] if so then somebody knew what they're doing !


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## oldish hippy (Jul 18, 2013)

also usefull when you flood the van as it lets the water out but make sure it has a grill or some sort of cover on as it can become a mouse entry oport


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## phillybarbour (Jul 18, 2013)

Never turned our gas off in the years we have had the van, however I have just changed our van and this has a Secumotion Valve which closes in the event of an accident, as someone pointed out though the valve is immediately after the bottle valve so the bottle could still leak.


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## Tbear (Jul 18, 2013)

When we first got our van, I drove off with gas and fridge left on. We had to drive across a very bumpy field so the liquid would have been sloshed into the regulator. I went pale and sat down for a while when I realised what I had done. Then it occurred to me that we had not gone up in a ball of flames so may have been safe to do. I did a bit of research on here and rang a motorhome service engineer. It seems the chances of liquid getting past the regulator or very low. The number of motor homers driving around, never turning theirs off could be viewed as a long term trial. Result - Mine stays on as long as the van is in use.

Richard


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## voyagerstan (Jul 18, 2013)

mine on all the time to but as said before make sure bottle is ventilated  stan


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 18, 2013)

We don't turn our gas off except when parked up at home.

Sometimes do I do when we're on the road.... if I remember! 

I'm 100% with n brown: there is no such thing as a numpty question in my book !  
No one is an expert in everything.
Plus... how the hell do you find the answers to your questions if you don't ask those with more know-how than yourself?!  :idea:
You don't ask, you don't learn, and you struggle on in frustration when you really don't have to.

I don't *ever* feel stupid asking a question about *anything* I don't understand, and neither should anyone else


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## maingate (Jul 18, 2013)

Leaving your bottle switched on is fine .......... as long as you regularly check your rubber hoses in the gas locker. If you arrive somewhere with empty bottles, it might be a tad annoying. I changed all my hoses when I got the van nearly 4 years ago and this thread has reminded me to go and buy some new ones. So thanks. :dance:


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## Smaug (Jul 18, 2013)

Another careless idiot here that leaves the bottles on all the time.  At least I know there isn't a leak or they would be empty by now! :dance: LPG is quite smelly & you soon detect a small leak if your schnozz works OK. I also use the fridge when travelling sometimes (to ensure getting a good charge into the leisure battery) - it sometimes blows out, but the flame failure will turn it off so no danger there either really.

Can anyone point out a gas explosion in a van caused by driving with the gas on, please?


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## Philcott (Jul 18, 2013)

Intrigued by some who leave their gas fridges on - I'd like to but wondered if it would work! 

Next 'numpty' question (and I agree, better to ask than remain ignorant!) does it matter if my zig panel is left switched on when I drive. It's one bit that I keep forgetting to check. I get where I'm going and discover that my hab area has been powered while I drive down the road! Or I switch it off before leaving, stop on the roadside to use the loo (switch it on so the loo will flush,) then once again forget to switch it off! :drive:

I have a split charge relay (newly fitted two days ago) so at long last my LB is being charged when I drive!


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## torwood (Jul 18, 2013)

I turn it off when I get home and on when I leave home.   Other than that it stays on, what's the point of having a fridge with an automatic changeover from mains, to gas to 12 volt if you don't let it do its job!

I also check the connections to the bottles, changeover valve and regulator using a bit of washing up liquid, slightly diluted so it is still fairly thick which makes it cling around the joints.   I have often found minor leaks this way and a slight tighten normally cures it.   I also carry a small paint brush which is ideal for putting the mixture around the joints.

i sleep and travel easy until the other half wakens me!


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## Monkey (Jul 18, 2013)

OK, ...  what happens when you pull in to a garage with the fridge running on gas!  Nice naked flame when someone alongside is filling up with petrol?


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## Deleted member 19733 (Jul 18, 2013)

We always turn our gas cylinders off when on the move. 

The reason; many years ago in our boating days, there was a small cruiser on the River Thames, which had a small gas fridge in the cockpit, which was on. The boat was driven by a petrol outboard engine,which had stopped because it ran out of fuel. The owner started to refuel the outboard with petrol and there was an explosion.

Our point is that if the gas fridge is on in the motorhome and one visits a garage to refuel, especially in this hot weather, the petrol vapours could be ignited by the pilot flame of the fridge.

We are also fortunate to have an auto changeover of energy supply selection for our fridge, so turning the gas off whilst on the move simply switches the supply to 12v automatically.


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## torwood (Jul 18, 2013)

Philcott said:


> Next 'numpty' question (and I agree, better to ask than remain ignorant!) does it matter if my zig panel is left switched on when I drive. It's one bit that I keep forgetting to check.


I leave my panel on as I have an electric dump valve for the water heater, which in colder climbs protects from frost damage, however I would also have the heater set to come on in that situation also which needs the power for the controls.   I do switch off the water pump supply and the interior lights supply as I find a constant small drain on my batteries in 'standby' mode taken by each circuit.


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## torwood (Jul 18, 2013)

Monkey said:


> OK, ...  what happens when you pull in to a garage with the fridge running on gas!  Nice naked flame when someone alongside is filling up with petrol?


The manufacturer designed it for running even when driving, that includes the gas heating as well as the fridge, so if it blows up I will sue Rapido!


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## wildman (Jul 18, 2013)

ours stays on when the van is in use, off when parked up for a while as it is an electric switch to an underslung tank and could drain the battery


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## Harmergeddon (Jul 18, 2013)

I thought the whole reason for turning off your gas at the bottle when travelling is so that in the event of an accident, potetial flames and stuff, broken pipe work your bottle won't ignite explode and potentially make a bad situation alot lot worse.


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## n brown (Jul 18, 2013)

I used to have my fridge on gas all the time,driving or not, never gave it a thought  Motorhome catching fire - YouTube  that noise starting about 2.17 is the gas tank or bottles venting the gas to prevent explosion


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## Philcott (Jul 18, 2013)

torwood said:


> The manufacturer designed it for running even when driving, that includes the gas heating as well as the fridge, so if it blows up I will sue Rapido!



Does this apply to older vehicles though? Mine is a 1991 Fiat Ducato with FFB habitation - I suspect I am not the only one on here with an older van.


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## maingate (Jul 18, 2013)

The auto changeover system on fridges seems to be a recent introduction, so your van will not have it.

European vans have the 12 volt systems in the Hab area live while driving (unless you choose to switch it off). British vans don't due to some obscure ruling for British vehicles that is not really necessary (I forget the details).


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## n brown (Jul 18, 2013)

on older models,if the flame, which is protected from draughts by a metal box,goes out,the gas supply is disconnected automatically and it needs to be re-lit manually.


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## Philcott (Jul 18, 2013)

Thanks guys!


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## Smaug (Jul 18, 2013)

There was a case a year or two back where a bloke was replacing the interior lining of his motorboat using a spray adhesive when the fridge pilot light ignited the fumes. There was a big explosion, he & his missus were badly burnt & the boat burnt to the water line. So gas fridges can be a problem with explosive fumes. 

I had never thought about petrol fumes, but I don't go into garages that often as I always fill the tank full & then run it almost empty with a range of almost 400 miles that will generally last me several days on holiday.

If I wanted to drive long distances, I wouldn't normally use the van.


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## Makzine (Jul 18, 2013)

Ok silly question thread it is then.  When the weather is said to be overcast and heavy, why doesn't the sky fall on our heads :raofl::raofl::raofl:


Ok, I know shut the door on my way out.    :wave:


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## El Veterano (Jul 18, 2013)

I can't believe what I am reading on here about leaving the gas turned on whilst driving, let alone have the fridge lit as well. Why would you even chance running the fridge on gas while on the move as it works perfectly well on 12 volt. If ever you get side swiped by some numpty in a 4x4 or a truck and the bottle gets ripped out of the side of the van there would be nothing to stop the escape of gas. Unlike fixed LPG tanks, Calor and the like do not have a built in shut off valve. Let alone the obvious dangers at the petrol station as has been pointed out in this thread. And to highlight this even further I have a friend who set fire to the side of his van doing this very thing. He was on the motorway in France and got flagged down by a passing motorist. And if all that isn't enough I simply cannot see any insurance company paying out if you have just caused the biggest bang since Hiroshima.


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## snowbirds (Jul 18, 2013)

*What about in garages*

Hi All

A lot of you are saying you leave your gas on your Fridge while travelling,so that means you have a naked flame while filling your van with fuel at petrol stations.Does that mean that it is not a naked flame or you are a special case, exempt from safety rules while refuelling. Lets hope you or anyone near you does not spill any fuel or has a leak while they are refuelling.I think you will also find you insurance would become void if you were to survive. 

Snowbirds.


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## mark61 (Jul 18, 2013)

Smaug said:


> There was a case a year or two back where a bloke was replacing the interior lining of his motorboat using a spray adhesive when the fridge pilot light ignited the fumes. There was a big explosion, he & his missus were badly burnt & the boat burnt to the water line. So gas fridges can be a problem with explosive fumes.
> 
> I had never thought about petrol fumes, but I don't go into garages that often as I always fill the tank full & then run it almost empty with a range of almost 400 miles that will generally last me several days on holiday.
> 
> If I wanted to drive long distances, I wouldn't normally use the van.



The spark from the ignition will cause an explosion, much less likely a constant pilot light will.


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## maingate (Jul 18, 2013)

You can stub your fag out in Diesel.

Just saying.


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## El Veterano (Jul 18, 2013)

It so happens that I have witnessed a gas bottle 'producing a jet of flame' - many of them actually, in a garage fire. They were literally going through the roof like an exocet missile, reaching about 200 feet high and then coming down and punching holes in other peoples roofs, one flattened a car to windscreen level.


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## Smaug (Jul 18, 2013)

El Veterano said:


> It so happens that I have witnessed a gas bottle 'producing a jet of flame' - many of them actually, in a garage fire. They were literally going through the roof like an exocet missile, reaching about 200 feet high and then coming down and punching holes in other peoples roofs, one flattened a car to windscreen level.



What? 6 or 11kg bottles like we use in vans? Or were they the 47kg industrial sized jobbies? just askin. 

If my van was on fire & my tiny 1kg BCG extinguisher wasn't going to cope - the sort of scenario where gas bottles may offer a risk, then I would be a loooong looong way away.


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## El Veterano (Jul 18, 2013)

Smaug said:


> What? 6 or 11kg bottles like we use in vans? Or were they the 47kg industrial sized jobbies? just askin.
> 
> If my van was on fire & my tiny 1kg BCG extinguisher wasn't going to cope - the sort of scenario where gas bottles may offer a risk, then I would be a loooong looong way away.



They were 13kg Propane as I recollect. It was a hell of a long time ago and was in a shed at the back of a small hardware shop. As teenagers we thought it was a great fireworks display! The local fire brigade didn't see it that way.:scared:


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## torwood (Jul 18, 2013)

Gas bottles are designed to fail safe, yes you may get a burn off from the gas escaping but the bottle shouldn't explode.   The exception is acetylene and when one of those cylinders goes off you need a large exclusion zone, if I recall correctly an acetylene cylinder can fly just under 200 metres, even so they seldome explode in a fire.


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## torwood (Jul 18, 2013)

Makzine said:


> Ok silly question thread it is then.  When the weather is said to be overcast and heavy, why doesn't the sky fall on our heads :raofl::raofl::raofl:


Because the Sky is NOT the We​ather!


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## snowbirds (Jul 18, 2013)

*Death wish 2*


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## mark61 (Jul 18, 2013)

I think there is more chance of something happening with an old motor with dodgy ignition cables, then a motorhome with fridge on. What about starting a motor with jump leads.


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## Firefox (Jul 18, 2013)

I leave mine on all the time and keep the fridge on gas even when traveling.

It will be fine unless there is a really bad accident (then there is an increased risk of fire or explosion) but in case of a bad accident the van will be a write off anyway.

Make sure you check your gas system regularly for leaks if you do this.


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## Smaug (Jul 18, 2013)

Firefox said:


> I leave mine on all the time and keep the fridge on gas even when traveling.
> 
> It will be fine unless there is a really bad accident (then there is an increased risk of fire or explosion) but in case of a bad accident the van will be a write off anyway.
> 
> Make sure you check your gas system regularly for leaks if you do this.



It becomes pretty obvious with the smell & the fact that you are always running out of gas anyway!


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## scampa (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm not being sarcastic here, but can I ask......... Who would you class as being "qualified to judge"?

And could the reason why we don't  hear of too many fires in petrol stations being caused by motorhome 'fridges, be because most motorhomers wouldn't enter a forecourt with their gas 'fridge lit?

Anyone who goes onto a petrol forecourt with a naked flame of any kind is gambling with their life, and the lives of anyone else in the area. It's as simple as that!


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## maingate (Jul 18, 2013)

I remember in the early 1980's going into Service Stations for fuel in South Africa. You did not need to leave your car, the attendant filled up for you. Many times the (white) South Africans were puffing away on cigarettes while being filled. I never saw or heard of a fire or explosion caused by this, even though petrol vapours would have been present in that heat.


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## scampa (Jul 18, 2013)

mark61 said:


> The spark from the ignition will cause an explosion, much less likely a constant pilot light will.



Sorry, but the flame from a pilot light will cause an ignition/explosion just as readily as a spark.



torwood said:


> Gas bottles are designed to fail safe, yes you may get a burn off from the gas escaping but the bottle shouldn't explode.   The exception is acetylene and when one of those cylinders goes off you need a large exclusion zone, if I recall correctly an acetylene cylinder can fly just under 200 metres, even so they seldome explode in a fire.



True, they do have pressure-relief devices fitted that are quite reliable, but it isn't unknown for one to be faulty. Also, if the cylinder is being pressurised ( by external heat ) faster than the safety device can release it, it will eventually explode. 

I've witnessed quite a few exploding LPG cylinders, including the "flying variety" ( and a few acetylene cyls too). One of the earlier LPG cylinder explosions that I came across was on a make-shift heater in the front room of a house. The resulting blast destroyed most of the interior of the three-bed semi, with flames leaping from every window and literally across the street, It also ignited the detached garage and a car in the driveway. 

Don't get paranoid, but DO treat LPG cylinders with respect!


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## Mastodon (Jul 18, 2013)

Makzine said:


> Ok silly question thread it is then.  When the weather is said to be overcast and heavy, why doesn't the sky fall on our heads :raofl::raofl::raofl:
> 
> 
> Ok, I know shut the door on my way out.    :wave:



_Pedant mode on_/ The average cumulus cloud weighs 100 000 tons. Chicken Licken had it right. /_pedant mode off_


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## Mastodon (Jul 18, 2013)

maingate said:


> You can stub your fag out in Diesel.
> 
> Just saying.



Not Vin Diesel though


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## scampa (Jul 18, 2013)

maingate said:


> I remember in the early 1980's going into Service Stations for fuel in South Africa. You did not need to leave your car, the attendant filled up for you. Many times the (white) South Africans were puffing away on cigarettes while being filled. I never saw or heard of a fire or explosion caused by this, even though petrol vapours would have been present in that heat.



As you probably know Maingate, this will most likely be due to the "flammable range" of petrol vapour (in this case), which is very roughly between about 1% and 8% mix with air, if I remember correctly.

If the concentration of petrol vapour to air is lower than 1%, or is greater than 8% (as it probably was, near to the nozzle), it will not ignite. The trouble is, when this "over-rich" vapour mixture begins to disperse over the ground area, it will get more diluted with the surrounding air, until at some point it will be WITHIN it's flammable limits. If there is an ignition source in that area, it will then readily ignite, and continue burning until all of the fuel vapour is consumed (possibly along with anything else within the vapour cloud).


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## scampa (Jul 19, 2013)

The trouble with acetylene cylinders is that, unlike LPG cyls, they can continue to self-heat (building up internal pressure) long after you have removed them from a fire or heat source.

In the old days, they would be submersed in a make-shift dam of water for 24 hours, then checked at intervals. The more modern method is to leave them in place, but direct a water jet onto them for 12-24 hours, carrying out regular checks with thermal imaging gear (which is quite a fun way to spend a night!).


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## El Veterano (Jul 19, 2013)

I take, some of your point, as a fully trained scuba diver/ cox, with over 20 years of experience to show for it. And although we do (these days, although this was not always the case) have bottles secured in an upright position on the RIB they should always, and without exception be laid on their side at any other time for the reason that you correctly state. But the point in this thread is not high pressure air but low pressure combustible liquid.


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## Tbear (Jul 19, 2013)

I remember being trained in the use of a Number One Burner (large petrol fuelled stove) and how when filling it, the vapours can run like a stream away from it. There was a film of the devastating results of what happens when the stream reaches a source of ignition and the speed that the flame/blast travels back up the stream to where the filling was taking place. Five gallons of petrol going up in flames is quite a site.

I turn my engine and gas off when I refuel. I admit that you are more at risk from idiots lobbing fag ends out of their cars as they pass but it makes me feel better.

Richard


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## dave and mary (Jul 19, 2013)

I was the first on this thread to say I never turn my gas of when traveling, but I must say I would NEVER travel with the fridge on gas, so many people on this thread have said  they do. Some very interesting things have been said about, gas bottles, fire, explosions ect, some of it way over my head, but to my way of thinking, a flame and gas are 2 things that should be respected, and to have them on together while traveling I think is very silly and not necessary as you can put it on 12 volt, and then to add the extra risk by going into a garage with it makes me shudder at what could happen.    :drive:     :drive:

P.S of to Brandon in a few hours with fridge on 12v so if you see us in a filling station its safe to come in lol


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## snowbirds (Jul 19, 2013)

*Read this very carefully*

Hi to all my pyro friends,

I have taken notes,:scared:AND YOU ARE ALL ON " ZEE LIST":drive::danger::goodnight:lane:


Snowbirds with zee tin hat on.:wave:


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## maingate (Jul 19, 2013)

scampa said:


> As you probably know Maingate, this will most likely be due to the "flammable range" of petrol vapour (in this case), which is very roughly between about 1% and 8% mix with air, if I remember correctly.
> 
> If the concentration of petrol vapour to air is lower than 1%, or is greater than 8% (as it probably was, near to the nozzle), it will not ignite. The trouble is, when this "over-rich" vapour mixture begins to disperse over the ground area, it will get more diluted with the surrounding air, until at some point it will be WITHIN it's flammable limits. If there is an ignition source in that area, it will then readily ignite, and continue burning until all of the fuel vapour is consumed (possibly along with anything else within the vapour cloud).



I am not familiar with the %'s for petrol but you are correct in principle. I was taught that the optimum mix of Methane to Air was between 5.5 to 9.25%. This gave the biggest potential explosion. However, below and above these figures there is still the risk of explosion, just not so violent and probably more CO generated due to incomplete combustion.

I and a workmate had just come out of a huge vessel on an Oil Refinery (Sasol 2, S. Africa). There were 2 welders working inside (with all the necessary Permit to Work rules being obeyed). We heard a bang and saw a flash through the manway hole. A terrified welder came out and ran straight past us. We had to enter (after pressing the gas alarm button) to help the other welder out. The skin was hanging off his face as his electrode had been the source of ignition. Gas was present but in a weak mixture. This gave off a 'pop' more than a 'bang' but generated more heat due to the weak mix. If it had been a proper mix, it would have took his head off. :scared:


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## snowbirds (Jul 19, 2013)

*Fridge on GAS*

Hi maingate,


Did they have a Fridge in there running on gas.:banana::banana::cool1::cool1:


Snowbirds.








maingate said:


> I am not familiar with the %'s for petrol but you are correct in principle. I was taught that the optimum mix of Methane to Air was between 5.5 to 9.25%. This gave the biggest potential explosion. However, below and above these figures there is still the risk of explosion, just not so violent and probably more CO generated due to incomplete combustion.
> 
> I and a workmate had just come out of a huge vessel on an Oil Refinery (Sasol 2, S. Africa). There were 2 welders working inside (with all the necessary Permit to Work rules being obeyed). We heard a bang and saw a flash through the manway hole. A terrified welder came out and ran straight past us. We had to enter (after pressing the gas alarm button) to help the other welder out. The skin was hanging off his face as his electrode had been the source of ignition. Gas was present but in a weak mixture. This gave off a 'pop' more than a 'bang' but generated more heat due to the weak mix. If it had been a proper mix, it would have took his head off. :scared:


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## maingate (Jul 19, 2013)

No David.

A Permit to Work was issued for the welding. A different Permit was issued for a different job outside of the vessel (fitting a new Gate valve on a pipe line I believe). The fans used to pump fresh air through the vessel (it quickly gets hot and uncomfortable in those temperatures) had the effect of drawing residual gas in the line into the vessel. As we were working on the top level of the vessel and the gas came in through the dome of the reactor vessel, it only affected our area.

It could be argued that it was negligence by the Production people but that would be a bit of a stretch as the 2 work sites were a long way between each other, one was in a large vessel and the other was on an external pipe line. It also has to be remembered that this huge new Oil from Coal refinery was the first of its type in the World. There had been smaller plants (it is the method Nazi Germany used in WW2) but nothing on this scale. The project cost £15 Billion in 1980, that was for 2 refineries and a large Coal Mine.


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## Beemer (Jul 19, 2013)

As to, turning off the gas or not....
I have been heating water for 3 days whilst the van has been sat in my garden!!!! Doh! 

Our m/h fridge can be set to automatic change over, from 12v, when travelling, to gas when stopped and uses 240v when on ehu... as long as one remembers to switch off the fridge when we park up at home after a trip.


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## snowbirds (Jul 19, 2013)

*Going to risk france*


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## maingate (Jul 19, 2013)

Beemer said:


> As to, turning off the gas or not....
> I have been heating water for 3 days whilst the van has been sat in my garden!!!! Doh!
> 
> Our m/h fridge can be set to automatic change over, from 12v, when travelling, to gas when stopped and uses 240v when on ehu... as long as one remembers to switch off the fridge when we park up at home after a trip.



It's at times like this I regret that there is no 'smug' emoticon. This will have to do. :rabbit:


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## maingate (Jul 19, 2013)

Babcox did have equipment on the refinery, gas heaters were theirs. I know that because I was Commissioning the Synthol area and had to have all the gas burners set up properly on a couple of them. 

They will have got a stake in the Project by virtue of having a South African based arm of the Company. By the same token Dorman Long provided a lot of steelwork because they had a large presence in SA (under the name of Dorbyl). I was offered a very attractive job with them by a senior Executive that we met while on holiday in Durban. His right hand man was also a Geordie, so we northerners are not all thickos.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 19, 2013)

Well said, Jim 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Thanks for the Smiley, Win


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## Smaug (Jul 19, 2013)

Is this now the DAFT ANSWER thread? :wave:


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## maingate (Jul 19, 2013)

True story.

I started working at a local company many years ago and I had to deal with a certain employee. They told me his name was Jimmy Dafter. Knowing all about the banter and nicknames used at work I did not believe it.

I saw his clocking in card one day (months later) and his name was Jimmy Daftah. :rolleyes2:


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## frontslide (Jul 19, 2013)

Does the Man who mows a section of council owned grass verge to the front of his boundry hedge really think that by doing this he will eventually become the owner of said patch of grass verge???


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 20, 2013)

frontslide said:


> Does the Man who mows a section of council owned grass verge to the front of his boundry hedge really think that by doing this he will eventually become the owner of said patch of grass verge???



Up here you can do 

Well, not own it, but you can get permission to fence it off and make a garden/private place of your own.
Lots of peeps have done that round here.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 20, 2013)

There's lots of good folks still with a social conscience up here who cut the public grass near their properties, Win - but we've plenty of fat, lazy s*ds and weebles too!!! :lol-049::rolleyes2::lol-061:


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## mark61 (Jul 20, 2013)

When I was doing garden maintenance we always mowed the verge outside as well. 

One thing I don't miss is getting up on a Monday morning with the though of doing 120 + gardens that week.


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## Covey (Jul 20, 2013)

Tbear.............

Well do I remember the delights (or otherwise!!) of the military No1 burner.    For those who have never tried cooking with the No1 it is basically a petrol fuelled blow torch on its side with a sheet of flame rather like a jet fighter on re-heat!!

I was talking to a friend the other day and we were speculating if Elf & Safety had ever looked at the risks of burning petrol under pressure, or even worse, the risks of trying to refuel the bloody thing with petrol when the No1 was red hot!!

For winter warfare use in the Artic we used to use Naptha which was not too bad at -15c but was a major hazard at normal temperatures because of its high gas point.

For those worried about crash safety of LPG bottles etc, Truma make a twin bottle auto changeover unit and regulator in two versions.  One version is rated for gas operation whilst in motion and the other is not and the gas bottles should be switched off.  Truma also produce pigtails with auto-shutoff valves if the accident results in the bottles being detached from the regulator.

I have just replaced the original Hymer installed Truma bottle regulators as they were 5 years past the 10 year recommended change date!!  Hymer also used HP rubber hoses for connection to the gas shutoff valve, but I took the opportunity to replace the rubber hoses with stainless steel braided hose.  Truma recommends that rubber hoses are replaced after 5 years


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## Covey (Jul 20, 2013)

I have a Gaslow central fill system with a couple of 11kg bottles, but was a bit concerned that some time ago the Forums were reporting frequent regulator failures, the main culprit seeming to be getting liquid LPG into the regulator.  On the Truma Duo-Control system I fitted you have an automatic bottle changeover system and a built in regulator.  BUT, this means you have a single regulator which if it fails, means £120 for a new unit.

The added complication in my case is that my Hymer is 50mBar gas!!

I have solved the redundant regulator issue by the simple expedient of taking a standard LPG 50mBar regulator which was supplied with my wok burner ring and buying from Gaslow for £20 an adapter which screws on to the Gaslow bottle one side and allows a standard LPG regulator to be screwed in the other end.  A length of rubber hose on the LP side of the regulator and a couple of jubilee clips and I have a stand by rig which will screw on to the Gaslow bottle and feed 50mBar gas through the rubber LP pipe into the copper supply pipe.  Job done!!  Not elegant but better than waiting a couple of weeks for Truma to deliver a new 50mBar changeover unit and regulator without a gas supply to The Beast..


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## chrisinbrighton (Jul 20, 2013)

*switching gas or fridge off in petrol station*



snowbirds said:


> Hi All
> 
> A lot of you are saying you leave your gas on your Fridge while travelling,so that means you have a naked flame while filling your van with fuel at petrol stations.Does that mean that it is not a naked flame or you are a special case, exempt from safety rules while refuelling. Lets hope you or anyone near you does not spill any fuel or has a leak while they are refuelling.I think you will also find you insurance would become void if you were to survive.
> 
> Snowbirds.



I forgot to switch the fridge off or I believe I was over cautious switched it off didn't remember doing so so switched it back on filled up  gaslow bottle with lpg via external filler and bang immediate fire lost the mh in a few minutes.totaly burnt out still connected to the lpg pump luckly the dog was in the front grabed him and ran away 
Needless to say now I check a third time the police were concerned i'd left the scene completely was I supposed to stand by my mh & wait for them lol
It turned out the fire brigade said I must have had a small leak in the pipe to the bottle & the extra pressure of filling up made it worse


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

[No message]


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

*switching gas or fridge off in petrol station*

chrisinbrighton...................

Having a MH catch fire whilst attached to an LPG pump must have necessitated a change of underwear for anyone using the petrol station at the time, especially as now many of the LPG pumps are situated alongside the petrol pumps rather than isolated near the derv pumps for HGV vehicles as they often were.

My Gaslow system uses braided stainless steel pipes between the filler point and the two bottles, but the bottles have non-return valves on the LPG inlets to avoid spills in the event of an accident.  My Hymer has the gas compartment on the opposite side of the vehicle from the fridge. but even though I have a regulator which is designed and rated to be used in moving vehicles, I still turn off the gas before leaving site and run the fridge on 12v from the vehicle side.

The previous owner suggested turning off the gas before hitting the road, and he knew more about running a MH than I ever will!! so that is what I do!!!


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## Smaug (Jul 21, 2013)

chrisinbrighton said:


> I forgot to switch the fridge off or I believe I was over cautious switched it off didn't remember doing so so switched it back on filled up  gaslow bottle with lpg via external filler and bang immediate fire lost the mh in a few minutes.totaly burnt out still connected to the lpg pump luckly the dog was in the front grabed him and ran away
> Needless to say now I check a third time the police were concerned i'd left the scene completely was I supposed to stand by my mh & wait for them lol
> It turned out the fire brigade said I must have had a small leak in the pipe to the bottle & the extra pressure of filling up made it worse



Terrifying experience, I can see how the sound of filling the gas would mask the leak too, but the gas should drain out of the bottom of the locker or under the van. I'd expect that to be detectable by the smell, but maybe you get some smell just from filling anyway. I also suppose that the gas must have then been drawn into the fridge vent by the natural convection action of the flame - and BOOM! You & the mutt were lucky to escape with your life.


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## Tbear (Jul 21, 2013)

Covey said:


> Tbear.............
> 
> Well do I remember the delights (or otherwise!!) of the military No1 burner.    For those who have never tried cooking with the No1 it is basically a petrol fuelled blow torch on its side with a sheet of flame rather like a jet fighter on re-heat!!
> 
> ...



Hi Covey,

In my 9 years as a military medic I only saw one injury from a No1 Burner and strangely it was not a burn but the burner exploded and the resulting shrapnel took his arm off just below the elbow and another bit ended up in his leg.

Naptha - Sort of petrol with added Bang Factor and we are worried about a fridge on LPG.

I wonder what the difference is between a van parked with the fridge on gas in a 30mph wind and a van doing 30mph with the fridge on gas.

Richard


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

If you follow the Gaslow instructions for refilling their LPG bottles they quite clearly state that the turn valve on the top of each Gaslow bottle should be turned OFF to isolate the gas bottles from the bulkhead regulator or bottle regulators.

That means that when you are refilling your Gaslow LPG bottles in a petrol station, there should be NO GAS APPLIANCES RUNNING and no pilot lights lit. because the gas supply to the vehicle is shut off at the top of the LPG tanks.

Each Gaslow LPG bottle has a non return valve on the filler inlet to prevent liquid/gas escaping out of the filler pipe at the top of the tank.

As you have to stand holding closed the control button on the LPG pump and you are in very close proximity to the gas compartment I would have thought that a ruptured filler pipe would show liquid LPG flowing out of the split and the smell would be very very strong!!  

Given that the LPG pumps need to be idiot proof ( the consequences of them not being are fairly dire!!!) I would have thought there is a pressure sensor that ensures that if the pump is pumping liquid LPG against little or no pressure, then the sensor assumes a broken pipe or misaligned nozzle and stops the pump anyway:bow:


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## snowbirds (Jul 21, 2013)

*Lonely are the brave*

Hi chrisinbrightion,

A lucky escape for you but the hard core will still carry on regardless with gas switched on,it could never happen to them:scared::scared:

Regards Snowbirds.




chrisinbrighton said:


> I forgot to switch the fridge off or I believe I was over cautious switched it off didn't remember doing so so switched it back on filled up  gaslow bottle with lpg via external filler and bang immediate fire lost the mh in a few minutes.totaly burnt out still connected to the lpg pump luckly the dog was in the front grabed him and ran away
> Needless to say now I check a third time the police were concerned i'd left the scene completely was I supposed to stand by my mh & wait for them lol
> It turned out the fire brigade said I must have had a small leak in the pipe to the bottle & the extra pressure of filling up made it worse


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

The No1 Burner was a very efficient way of cooking in bulk and the sound of the No1 firing up at dawn was a welcome sound as it meant some warm water for a shave and brekkers!!!

If they were well maintained they were OK, but when the pump seals went duff, watch out!!  I am sure Elf & Safety would not allow them to be used today!!!

I had a CO who wanted a full winter warfare demo done for some visiting bigwig in the middle of summer.  I had great difficulty in explaining to him that a fuel (Naptha) which was designed to stay liquid at -25C was going to do some very horrible stuff at +25C!!!!  He insisted, I asked for it as a written order, the order was written and signed by him, and he signed the write off for a Volvo snowcat plus two F shelters which went up in the blaze.

Such people were sent to try us!!!!!:lol-053:


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## chrisatisis (Jul 21, 2013)

*gas bottle off*

uuumm interesting responses. I do sometimes leave on but tend to turn off if I remember. I was told it was illegal to drive with it on. So I imagine that if there was an accident and the gas pipe ruptured and ignited,  apart from the obvious danger. I would be responsible for the consequences. 

I never leave it on for a long drive motorway or if my betrothed ispassenger - she has a more elevated sense of danger/correctness than me


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## maingate (Jul 21, 2013)

chrisatisis said:


> uuumm interesting responses. I do sometimes leave on but tend to turn off if I remember. I was told it was illegal to drive with it on. So I imagine that if there was an accident and the gas pipe ruptured and ignited,  apart from the obvious danger. I would be responsible for the consequences.
> 
> I never leave it on for a long drive motorway or if my betrothed ispassenger - she has a more elevated sense of danger/correctness than me



An incident (no longer called an accident in Police speak) is caused by a number of factors coming together at the same time. Switching the gas off will eliminate one factor.

Should your treasured and expensive motorhome go up in flames, I am sure that your Insurance Company will tell you not to worry that you contributed to the incident. They will pay out the many thousands of pounds to replace your lovely vehicle.


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

Truma produce two versions of their bulkhead changeover/regulator called a Duo-Control.

The basic Duo-Control is not rated by any EC National Authority for use in a moving vehicle

The Duo-Control CS is rated by most EC countries for use on the move.  This unit is fitted with a crash sensor (CS!) and auto shut-off valve.  Truma also make connecting hoses which are rated as "crash resistant" and these hoses have auto shut off valves in case they become detached from the regulator.

If you had a gas appliance running on the move without the appropriate approved fittings, then I suspect your insurance company might well walk away in the event of a claim.

I presume that the Gaslow requirement to shut off the supply valve to the regulators is mainly to prevent damage to the regulator/s because the LPG pump pressure has got to be greater than the existing tank pressure in order to get a flow of liquid.


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## maingate (Jul 21, 2013)

Covey said:


> Truma produce two versions of their bulkhead changeover/regulator called a Duo-Control.
> 
> The basic Duo-Control is not rated by any EC National Authority for use in a moving vehicle
> 
> ...



A couple of points Covey.

Not all of us have the automatic changeover system that switches appliances between Gas/mains/battery. We have manual systems without automatic gas shutoff equipment.

Your second paragraph is correct (to my mind). Insurance companies are getting worse (and sneakier) about getting out of claims. Off topic a bit but if you had Insurance cover to drive somebody elses vehicle then check the info that came with your latest renewal (the fine print that nobody bothers with). Many companies have sneakily removed that from renewals. You will find that information only if you look carefully for it. :rulez:


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## Covey (Jul 21, 2013)

Maingate...............

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  

The Truma auto changeover I was referring to was auto switching from one gas tank to the backup gas tank, assuming of course that you have two tanks!!!.  There are a number of manufacturers who make changeover units which work on designating one tank as the Primary and one as the Backup.  When the pressure in the Primary tank falls below a set level the changeover unit automatically changes the valve over to take gas from the backup tank.  

In theory this saves you running out of gas whilst cooking your lunch!! It does not however absolve you from instant blame from Senior Management when both bottles turn out to be empty and SWIO is feeling cold/hungry/bored or generally ill disposed to us poor baggage mules!!

My Hymer badged fridge runs on 240/12v/gas but needs human intervention to make the switch.  I understand that modern fridges can switch automatically.

Having a misbehaving fridge is not likely to do you much harm, but a failed high pressure LPG line will ruin your day big time!!!!

On the subject of driving a vehicle owned by another, it is something I never do and would not let anyone drive mine on that basis.  The cover is normally Third Party only and that means a big risk in the event of an accident.  Even TPFT cover is a huge risk and best avoided.

I have a car cam in my car because in south London there are lots of "contrived accident" claims.  Much more difficult to claim if I have a video recording of what happened!!  I have thought about fitting a car cam in The Beast.


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## maingate (Jul 21, 2013)

The point about driving other vehicles on your insurance was just made to highlight tricks that the thieving scrotes .... er, that should read Insurance Companies ...... do on the quiet.

I have a dual lens in car cam. I have modified an old Navman window mounting bracket to take the cam. I keep it in the car and the proper one in the MH. I just need to move the cam and 12 volt lead between vehicles.


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## mark61 (Jul 21, 2013)

No, never on a ferry. 

The tunnel is fairly strict though, usually having a member of staff carry out a visual inspection, but not always.

In the US it seems most RV's run with gas fridge on. They are not meant to go into petrol stations with fridge on though. I wonder how many RV drivers turn their fridge off when re fuelling? Many of there vans are petrol.


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## Canalsman (Jul 21, 2013)

Brittany Ferries FAQ:

Can I transport gas cylinders? - Brittany Ferries


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## Robmac (Jul 21, 2013)

maingate said:


> ....................Your second paragraph is correct (to my mind). Insurance companies are getting worse (and sneakier) about getting out of claims. Off topic a bit but if you had Insurance cover to drive somebody elses vehicle then check the info that came with your latest renewal (the fine print that nobody bothers with). Many companies have sneakily removed that from renewals. You will find that information only if you look carefully for it. :rulez:



Quite right jim. I have recently found out that my insurance is void if my gas system isn't serviced by a registered fitter every 12 months. This is of course in the small print.


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## maingate (Jul 21, 2013)

Robmac said:


> Quite right jim. I have recently found out that my insurance is void if my gas system isn't serviced by a registered fitter every 12 months. This is of course in the small print.



Who is that with Rob?


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## El Veterano (Jul 22, 2013)

Well I always turn my gas OFF when driving and I always make sure it is OFF on the ferry (short hop, mostly these days, Dover - Calais admittedly). And although I can confirm that I have not recently, say in the last 10 years, heard of any ferry company's asking for gas to be turned off, although I know that they do on the tunnel. However, as has been stated in this thread it is a requirement in the ferry co's booking regulations that gas cylinders are turned off, and I know for a fact that years ago the crew would check all MH's and caravans on the car decks by feeling for hot air coming out of the vents. And without fail there was more often than not an announcement over the tannoy that somebody had left their gas on and would they please go and turn it off or the ship would not be leaving the port. I suppose that these days they just rely on the wording in their contract with the customer ie you and me. And further more if there was a fire on board caused by a MH fridge then it would be the owner of said fridge from whom they would be seeking compensation.
Its a no brainer it all cases really - turn it off.


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## molly 2 (Jul 22, 2013)

*Inverta*

Wots the differance between an iverta jenny and jenny


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## n brown (Jul 22, 2013)

it's very simple  Difference between an inverter generator and a generator   sort of !


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## Covey (Jul 22, 2013)

I have just bought a Hyundai 2.2kva (2000w constant) inverter type generator as an insurance policy against the rest of my Big Boys Toys demanding too much power.  It was under £700 and I have had it running under test loads and it appears to do exactly what it says on the tin (actually not a tin but a bright blue plastic case!!)

It has an electric start, plus a pull start AND can be started remotely from a key fob.  I thought long and hard (about 2 minutes actually!!) about the justification of being able to sit in/on my lounger chair and being able press the fob button and remote start the generator  ie:  Less stress and more time for Bombay and tonic with the ice being replenished in double quick time!!

It runs at 92db which is not that bad but if one is in extremis with depleted batteries, one will not be worrying about the noise level as long as the bloody thing starts!!!!!!!:wacko:


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