# Expenses whilst full timing



## gypo (May 1, 2020)

Hi all,
Today me and the better half have been chatting and come up with a game plan to go full timing in the van, hopefully being able to spend most of the time in France or spain.
We have worked out that if we sell our house and buy a flat we can get a rental income from the flat of at least £750pm with no mortgage.
In a years time I will be able to take a pension of approx 9k a year.
we have gone through the fingers the best we can for out goings and the figures seem to work.
We are not sure of things like health insurance etc tho and how much that will cost but most things we know the costs of.
I understand we will have to come back to mot the van and little things like that we have tried to account for things like laundry,fuel food,phone and insurance.
Can anyone see any flaws or issues that I may have Missed? 
Any advice would be great
Thanks 
D


----------



## TJBi (May 1, 2020)

gypo said:


> Hi all,
> Today me and the better half have been chatting and come up with a game plan to go full timing in the van, hopefully being able to spend most of the time in France or spain.
> We have worked out that if we sell our house and buy a flat we can get a rental income from the flat of at least £750pm with no mortgage.
> In a years time I will be able to take a pension of approx 9k a year.
> ...


Are you somehow exempted from the 90 days in 180 limit after the end of the Brexit transition period?


----------



## gypo (May 1, 2020)

Should have said figures not fingers


----------



## REC (May 1, 2020)

One word....Brexit! Cannot stay in Schengen zone for more than 90 days in 180 after December. And it's a rolling180 days...there is a long thread where this was discussed. Can't find it at the moment. Will post if I do! Health insurance proof may be needed, cost depends on age. Again after Brexit can't use EH1C card for medical needs. Can't remember what the rules are for using a UK registered van in a country but think you are supposed to register it to that country if there for more than three (6?) months, they may become more strict about it
( but may not!) . Currently lots of discussion on whether there will be a Schengen visa allowing a longer stay, but as far as I understand it nothing is decided. 
Will you use the flat as a UK address for all the Gov needs, license, tax, etc. Postal address will be important....others on here who full-time will be along soon with more suggestions.


----------



## gypo (May 1, 2020)

TJBi said:


> Are you somehow exempted from the 90 days in 180 limit after the end of the Brexit transition period?


I hadn't account for this, this is why I've posted the thread, that wouldn't be such a problem if we had to return every now and again to comply 
Thanks
D


----------



## jacquigem (May 1, 2020)

yes you would have to return for 90 days or at least get out of Schengen , morocco maybe ?


----------



## gypo (May 1, 2020)

Thank you for all the replies so far, this is what we need to enable us to construct a game plan, please keep,them coming
D


----------



## n brown (May 1, 2020)

there's usually loopholes , or other ways around the rules . keep your eyes and ears open , they're usually discovered fairly quickly .


----------



## harrow (May 1, 2020)

And the tax man will want 20% on the profits  And national insurance and the affect on state pension


----------



## jacquigem (May 1, 2020)

Another option could be Spanish residency .Much cheaper to live in Spain and no need to spend money  returning  to the UK ?


----------



## runnach (May 1, 2020)

As things stand your plan would work ,the million dollar question is what arrangements we have abroad at the end of the year ,others have described the possibilities and strong ones but nothing yet is set in stone


----------



## Canalsman (May 1, 2020)

gypo said:


> I hadn't account for this, this is why I've posted the thread, that wouldn't be such a problem if we had to return every now and again to comply
> Thanks
> D



Not every now and then ...

You will not be able to return to the Schengen zone for 180 days after leaving after the 90 day stay permitted. 

In reality you will have to be UK based with periodic visits to Europe.


----------



## Drover (May 1, 2020)

harrow said:


> And the tax man will want 20% on the profits  And national insurance and the affect on state pension


You stop paying national insurance when you claim your state pension. 
You can earn around £12k each a year before paying tax. Though your pension is included in that figure .


----------



## rugbyken (May 1, 2020)

it’s 90 days in a rolling 180 days so once you have been back home for 90 days the count starts again ? doesn’t it ie your 1st day & your 181st are both within the system


----------



## Robmac (May 1, 2020)

If I were you I would do a combination of touring the UK and the continent, there is still loads to see here.

I think it's doable within your budget if you get the flat rented out and cut your cloth.


----------



## colinm (May 1, 2020)

A single property rented out should not be liable for NI as it would not be considered as a business by HMRC.
However profit will be added to any other income you have for Income Tax.
What you will need to consider is how the property is managed with you being absent, many use an agent so they don't have any problems to sort, and if you do this it will most likely be your biggest expense for the house.


----------



## gypo (May 1, 2020)

Thank you all for the comments, very helpful. 
Please keep them coming


----------



## vwalan (May 1, 2020)

many will be doing say 90 days in spain then go to morocco for 90 days then have 90 days to get back to uk . 
spend time fixing , mot ,etc then off again to eu and start it all over again. 
just monitor the dates and get the timings right. 
could be go tunisia insted of morocco. 
bots from france or sardinia if my memory is right.


----------



## TeamRienza (May 1, 2020)

Depending on your ages, if you stop work and stay in the Uk or go abroad your National insurance contributions will stop. This will have an effect on your eventual state pension under the 2016 changes (even if you have a full record of contributions before under the old scheme). It can be very worth while making up the contributions which are about £795 for each year you buy. This will boost your pension by about £4 per week so if you have a reasonable life expectancy it is worth exploring. Get a personalised state pension forecast online, unless of course you are already of pension age.

This also applies to anyone who stops working before state pension age living in the Uk.

Davy


----------



## barge1914 (May 1, 2020)

rugbyken said:


> it’s 90 days in a rolling 180 days so once you have been back home for 90 days the count starts again ? doesn’t it ie your 1st day & your 181st are both within the system


It doesn’t matter when you start counting, forward or back. Simply in any 180 day period counted from any date you must not have been present in Schengen for a total of more than 90 days.


----------



## vwalan (May 1, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> Depending on your ages, if you stop work and stay in the Uk or go abroad your National insurance contributions will stop. This will have an effect on your eventual state pension under the 2016 changes (even if you have a full record of contributions before under the old scheme). It can be very worth while making up the contributions which are about £795 for each year you buy. This will boost your pension by about £4 per week so if you have a reasonable life expectancy it is worth exploring. Get a personalised state pension forecast online, unless of course you are already of pension age.
> 
> This also applies to anyone who stops working before state pension age living in the Uk.
> 
> Davy


you could just work enough and have payed in enough for the year  but possibly only work a few months in uk. 
i used to do it and when i had payed enough to get a years cover get off abroad again. . also you can get a tax rebate as thats based on you getting an amount of pay every week of the year. i used to come back end of april ang get away the end of summer. worked a treat. 
might have changed a bit these days but its worth looking into.


----------



## jagmanx (May 2, 2020)

You may only "Clear" £600 a month from a flat rental due to Tax Repairs Agents fees etc.
Less in first year !
What about no tenant in place ?
Others have alerted you to the 3 month rule.

With travel restrictions or Isolations likely to be in place..
I suggest NOW is not the time to do this.
Ok make your plans etc but beware
1 Cannot sell house at the moment
2 Rental market not functioning 100%
3 Have plans for if you are ill (not virus ill)
4 Bolt-holes in UK ?
Sorry this is a bit negative but that is where we all are as of today and maybe another year !


----------



## jacquigem (May 2, 2020)

Maybe another thing to think about is exchange rate dropping if we end up with no deal Brexit


----------



## REC (May 2, 2020)

Have you somewhere to stay in UK as a base? Would make life easier when here, might be able to negotiate with a site for a longer term parking. It can get quite tiring always looking for somewhere to park up, although exciting initially always on the move. Have you a backup plan if the van breaks down and needs a repair and you can't stay in it? Would be worth an "untouchable" contingency fund to cover emergencies where you will need a lump sum? Sounds like you will have enough to live on if careful, especially once you have pension. We pay 8% agency fee for rental (plus vat) and allow to lose approx 1 MTHS rent a year for gas / electric certificate & repairs. Our agent doesn't charge a fee for arranging repairs etc, and a minimum amount on change of tenant, many charge for everything they go near, so choose carefully!  Choice of tenant is crucial, a long term tenancy for a year, gives more stability. Changing tenants can involve loss of at least a months rental.


----------



## gypo (May 2, 2020)

REC said:


> Have you somewhere to stay in UK as a base? Would make life easier when here, might be able to negotiate with a site for a longer term parking. It can get quite tiring always looking for somewhere to park up, although exciting initially always on the move. Have you a backup plan if the van breaks down and needs a repair and you can't stay in it? Would be worth an "untouchable" contingency fund to cover emergencies where you will need a lump sum? Sounds like you will have enough to live on if careful, especially once you have pension. We pay 8% agency fee for rental (plus vat) and allow to lose approx 1 MTHS rent a year for gas / electric certificate & repairs. Our agent doesn't charge a fee for arranging repairs etc, and a minimum amount on change of tenant, many charge for everything they go near, so choose carefully!  Choice of tenant is crucial, a long term tenancy for a year, gives more stability. Changing tenants can involve loss of at least a months rental.


Hi Ruth,
Thanks for the info, we will have a slush fund hopefully around 30k-40k if all goes to plan, as for somewhere to stay in the UK I have a mate who has a field I'm sure would let me use from time to time also a local farmers I know has a cl site that I know i could get a good reduced rate on at worst.
Having been in the building industry all my life I know many tradesmen to call on for repairs should they be required. We have owned a rental property once before and I know choosing the right tenant is critical and can be a bit of a lottery, we are thinking if we buy a retirement type flat in a nice area we may have a better chance of getting a better tenant?
Do I take it that you are full timing, if so anymore info would be great.
Thanks
Dean


----------



## jagmanx (May 2, 2020)

Yes that is healthy slush..You may need some for the flat to prepare it for rental.
When we first rented our house..we did so furnished...Our latest tenant wanted unfurnished and we agreed.
Not sure if unfurnished works with a flat but maybe ?
Getting a good agent will help with many things. We pay a higher % to the agent than Ruth but they do everything and no surcharges on tradesmens bills.
If you are travelling I suggest leaving the agent to organise tradesmen etc even though I note your comments.
Even with the 3 month limit you really can do without having to return to UK because of a problem with the flat..again the agent is key.
Motorhome insurance can be tricky or expensive depending on your precise residential status etc. A bit of legitimate ducking and diving may be needed.
Insurers in UK do not like "no fixed abode". Owning the flat will help.
Doctors is another consideration !


----------



## gypo (May 2, 2020)

Hi jagmanx,
Is this something that are currently doing full Timing? If so what would you estimate an average monthly to be?
Thanks 
D


----------



## jagmanx (May 2, 2020)

We full-time for 6 months in the summer !
Tour Europe and spend about £1000 a month....plus all the yearly expenses..Tax insurance service etc.
We hibernate (cheaply) in the winter.
My other thoughts are  ..Where will you be/stay in winter ?


----------



## jagmanx (May 2, 2020)

Ps..
We would not choose to winter in Uk.
Too cold
Too dark
Ehu needed
Too much gas
No fun !...Others do it and enjoy !


----------



## SquirrellCook (May 2, 2020)

If you rent out your flat, just make sure the tenants are qualified to live in a house or flat.  We tried it twice and the damage was greater than the income.  Once manging it ourselves and once with an agent.


----------



## barryd (May 2, 2020)

Those were the kind of figures I was looking at when considering full timing. Longest we did was six months and it was roughly £1000 a month.

I wouldn't rule out wintering in the uk though. We have a great CL and CS network with hookups on many and deals to be done. We have done some long term touring in the winter here. The three month thing for Schengen is a complete PIA but don't get me started on that.  If I were seriously considering full timing now I would maybe look at citizenship in an EU country then the world's your oyster. Duel if possible. Portugal? Latvia?

Mind you there is a case going on at the moment for Brits to be able to retain eu citizenship as the argument is its illegal to strip someone of their eu citizenship just because it's country leaves the union but I don't know if it will work.

Of course the big unknown is how we all come out of this crisis. It could make all sorts of differences.

Good luck with it though.  I always wanted to cut all the ties but never quite managed it.


----------



## Mr and Mrs Tupcox (May 2, 2020)

Good plan . Go for it we have .I've been renting out for 5 years no problems.  Sylvia rented her house out 2 years ago.and that's been good to.
Got small static for base camp at my son's 
Go for it..


----------



## gypo (May 2, 2020)

I’ve been doing the sums and bear basic living would cost approx £400 pm this is when all is going well and no unforeseen bills.
This would be living a basic lifestyle not a holiday type one.
The next thing we need to do is upgrade our van to a fixed bed one, if anyone can suggest any decent vans or ones to avoid that would be very helpful budget around 30k
Thanks all for the advice, please keep it coming 
D


----------



## jagmanx (May 2, 2020)

I suggest £400 a month is optimistic
£300 on food
£200 on Fuel
£100 on campsites/aires etc
These being minimum figures !


----------



## gypo (May 2, 2020)

Yes you may be right, it may be a little more, fuel would probably be half what you suggest tho as we don’t plan on moving too much once we get somewhere suitable.
We don’t plan on staying on any aire that charge if at all possible, I understand that this won’t always be possible.
Cheers
D


----------



## pamjon (May 2, 2020)

Maybe just a thought for you, but if you bought a small plot of ground in Spain you can put ashed on it anyway. To buy it you have to have a NIE number, then of course a residencia  then you shouldn't have a problem with how many days you spend away. I tis not difficult to do as we did it. If you go an hour inland from Valencia you should be able to pick up a plot of land with water on or close by for about 7000euros. While we were there 3 years ago there is a little village called Pedralba. There was a three bedrromed bungalow with water a fitted ready for solar panels it could have been bought for about 30000euros. Once you go about an hour inland from Valencia the property goes for nothing as such possibly even cheaper now. As for renting your property out, I wouldn't like to put you off but we had a hell of a job with some tenents. Strangly enough the ones with all the good references were the worst. Of course Ken in Spain will be more upto date about buying property over there than we are.
As for a fixed bed MotorHome we have a 16 year old Burstner  which is superb.
PJ


----------



## Asterix (May 2, 2020)

The first thing I found when I went fulltiming was that my MH wasn't really fit for fulltiming,it did me for the first three years but it was a big compromise. It taught me a great deal about what I really needed/wanted,so I started out with my requirements to decide what vehicle I went for. Fixed bed, compressor fridge,multi fuel burner,lots of solar,lots of water, and space....lots of space,the only way to meet my needs was a self build so that's the way I went.
How long have you spent in one stretch in your current MH? That gives you some idea of your needs,but remember you have to carry your whole life with you so weight is a big factor in deciding on your forever home.


----------



## kenspain (May 2, 2020)

gypo said:


> Hi all,
> Today me and the better half have been chatting and come up with a game plan to go full timing in the van, hopefully being able to spend most of the time in France or spain.
> We have worked out that if we sell our house and buy a flat we can get a rental income from the flat of at least £750pm with no mortgage.
> In a years time I will be able to take a pension of approx 9k a year.
> ...


Don't forget you can only stay in Spain for 90 days They are talking about a sticker to go in you windscreen with the date that you entered Spain,


----------



## TJBi (May 2, 2020)

kenspain said:


> Don't forget you can only stay in Spain for 90 days They are talking about a sticker to go in you windscreen with the date that you entered Spain,


Not Spain, EU. If entering via France, the 90 days includes any days spent travelling through France.


----------



## kenspain (May 2, 2020)

pamjon said:


> Maybe just a thought for you, but if you bought a small plot of ground in Spain you can put ashed on it anyway. To buy it you have to have a NIE number, then of course a residencia  then you shouldn't have a problem with how many days you spend away. I tis not difficult to do as we did it. If you go an hour inland from Valencia you should be able to pick up a plot of land with water on or close by for about 7000euros. While we were there 3 years ago there is a little village called Pedralba. There was a three bedrromed bungalow with water a fitted ready for solar panels it could have been bought for about 30000euros. Once you go about an hour inland from Valencia the property goes for nothing as such possibly even cheaper now. As for renting your property out, I wouldn't like to put you off but we had a hell of a job with some tenents. Strangly enough the ones with all the good references were the worst. Of course Ken in Spain will be more upto date about buying property over there than we are.
> As for a fixed bed MotorHome we have a 16 year old Burstner  which is superb.
> PJ


There is plots of land over here near me between 8/10 thousand euros, but first you must go to the townhall before you buy any land and ask them if it is ok to put a motorhome or caravan on the land , just say to keep tools in while you work the land find a small village you will find them more helpful. Don't buy any thing with a building on the land incase the building is illegal then as the owner of the land you could end up with a big fine and made to knock the building down


----------



## r4dent (May 2, 2020)

chrisjones18 said:


> You stop paying national insurance when you claim your state pension.







__





						National Insurance and tax after State Pension age
					

Age-related tax allowance, calculating tax if you carry on working, National Insurance payments




					www.gov.uk
				




I think you'll find that you can stop paying NI when you reach State Pension age regardless of whether you claim the pension or not!.
Stopping paying is not automatic, you have to notify your employer.
So those that work beyond pension age can stop paying NI on their pay packet.  

My wife could have got her pension at 60 but continued working until she was 63.  
She also deferred her state pension because of the tax implications.  

She claimed her state pension at 63 and was given a lump sum of three years state pension plus interest. (she could have had an enhanced weekly pension, but the lump sum was a better deal for her).
She paid no NI on her salary after her 60th birthday.  

If you are thinking of working beyond state retirement age take professional  advice.  

She ended up a few thousand ££ better off.


----------



## r4dent (May 2, 2020)

We forecast our budget using a spread sheet I wrote
It projects your income and expenditure for the next year and graphs your daily bank balance.

You enter details of your incomings and outgoings .  As well as specifying  an amount you allocate a frequency (weekly monthly daily one off etc) and a date when it started or will starts.  So if you enter a state pension of £150 a week from 1/1/2021 it will show nothing until 1/1/21 and then £150 on the 1/1/21 and every week thereafter.

I've put a few entries  in as an example, but you will need to put you own values in there.  The amount of detail you put in is up to you.  Most months all you need to enter is your latest bank balance and its date.

The attached PDF shows he entries I made and the resulting graph. 

I can't attach the Excel file, but if want a copy pm your email to me and I'll send you a copy.

Many thanks to Dads Train, he has told me how to attach an Excel File     You just need to change the filetype and it works.

The file with the filetype ".txt" is in fact an ". xls"   Just downline the file and rename it and Bob is your mothers brother.

Good luck


----------



## gypo (May 2, 2020)

r4dent said:


> We forecast our budget using a spread sheet I wrote
> It projects your income and expenditure for the next year and graphs your daily bank balance.
> 
> You enter details of your incomings and outgoings .  As well as specifying  an amount you allocate a frequency (weekly monthly daily one off etc) and a date when it started or will starts.  So if you enter a state pension of £150 a week from 1/1/2021 it will show nothing until 1/1/21 and then £150 on the 1/1/21 and every week thereafter.
> ...


Hi yes please it would be great to have the excel file, I can see to find the pm button  if you could pm I'll reply to it with my email.
Thanks everyone who has replied, I've not got time atm to read through them properly, but will tomrw.
Thanks all
C


----------



## Drover (May 2, 2020)

I did not notify anyone about ni tax, it stopped on my 65 birthday , I finished work just after my 67 birthday. So mine was automatic.
I claimed my pension on my 65 birthday, 
My state pension is £900 every 4 weeks.


----------



## longsword (May 3, 2020)

Whilst most of the EU is in the Shengen Zone Gibraltar and Ireland are not. Switzerland is not in the EU but is in the Shengen Zone. The same with Iceland and Norway. Basically you can’t really full time in Europe as we are not part of it. I don’t know what the rules about taking up residency in an EU Country would be now, but possibly more difficult than before.


----------



## jagmanx (May 3, 2020)

r4dent said:


> We forecast our budget using a spread sheet I wrote
> It projects your income and expenditure for the next year and graphs your daily bank balance.
> 
> You enter details of your incomings and outgoings .  As well as specifying  an amount you allocate a frequency (weekly monthly daily one off etc) and a date when it started or will starts.  So if you enter a state pension of £150 a week from 1/1/2021 it will show nothing until 1/1/21 and then £150 on the 1/1/21 and every week thereafter.
> ...


Yes budget both planning and actual are necessary.
There are various apps available which can help with daily/weekly/monthly spends but  you cannot beat a proper Spreadsheet IMO
On said spreadsheet I also track daily mileage and camp fees fuel etc
I do one row for every day and columns for the expenses....I just like to know "where the cash goes"
You could have a few funds/budget accounts
1 Slush as you call it..Keep that in reserve. Although I appreciate that you will need to use some to begin with
2 Yearly add up all the known motorhome costs
Tax Insurance Service/MOT/Tyres/Battery .maybe £1000 a year
so "Save/move" £100 a month (So £1200 fopr the year) into that fund account and spend from it for the mentioned Items.
It might build up a small reserve for Minor emergencies (fridge repair/ puncture)
3 Then Food Fuel Camping etc etc comes from you main spending account
Judicious use of a credit card can help "Smooth the spending"


----------



## jacquigem (May 3, 2020)

longsword said:


> Whilst most of the EU is in the Shengen Zone Gibraltar and Ireland are not. Switzerland is not in the EU but is in the Shengen Zone. The same with Iceland and Norway. Basically you can’t really full time in Europe as we are not part of it. I don’t know what the rules about taking up residency in an EU Country would be now, but possibly more difficult than before.


Yes, we were told better to get our Spanish residancy before the transition period ends at the end of the year as it is likely to be harder to get next year . At the moment if you have 16K in a Spanish bank account for 3 months you should be ok. Otherwise you may be able to find a Police Station that will accept a regular pension payment of at least (I think) 600 Euro per month again into a Spanish Bank account. Next year might need to pass language tests etc.


----------



## gypo (May 3, 2020)

kenspain said:


> There is plots of land over here near me between 8/10 thousand euros, but first you must go to the townhall before you buy any land and ask them if it is ok to put a motorhome or caravan on the land , just say to keep tools in while you work the land find a small village you will find them more helpful. Don't buy any thing with a building on the land incase the building is illegal then as the owner of the land you could end up with a big fine and made to knock the building down


Thanks Ken, 
Is this something thing you are currently doing, if so have you had any issues from the authority's for living on the land? Are there many people doing this near you?
Thanks
D


----------



## jagmanx (May 3, 2020)

Have you considered keeping your house and renting it out.
OK cashflow issues but maybe a better rental income and there will be appreciation.
From what you say you could get all the work done fairly easily !
Talk to your mortgage provider..they could well advance a small lump sum to get you through until pension arrives !
For a house unfurnished let might make better sense and be long-term  (renewable every 2 years ! with a minor increase in rental or none..keeping tenants in place is good !)
AND no selling and buying fees


----------



## kenspain (May 3, 2020)

gypo said:


> Thanks Ken,
> Is this something thing you are currently doing, if so have you had any issues from the authority's for living on the land? Are there many people doing this near you?
> Thanks
> D


When I first come to Spain I made the mistake and brought a house that was not legal because it was cheap cost me a lot of money to make it legal to live in, I have a friend who has lived on his land for 3 years now with no problem's I will find out were he went and send you a PM with the address and you can email them .


----------



## gypo (May 3, 2020)

kenspain said:


> When I first come to Spain I made the mistake and brought a house that was not legal because it was cheap cost me a lot of money to make it legal to live in, I have a friend who has lived on his land for 3 years now with no problem's I will find out were he went and send you a PM with the address and you can email them .


Many thanks Ken that would be great,
Jagmanx we did think of keeping the house, but by selling it and buying a flat we will be down Sizing for when the day comes we decide to return and also releasing some equity in the house.
Rental for the house would probably be 1k a month where the flat would be £750pm, we figure that once settled into a routine we could easily manage on the £750, I understand this will be a little less once the letting agent takes a fee.
Thanks
Dean


----------



## jagmanx (May 3, 2020)

gypo said:


> Many thanks Ken that would be great,
> Jagmanx we did think of keeping the house, but by selling it and buying a flat we will be down Sizing for when the day comes we decide to return and also releasing some equity in the house.
> Rental for the house would probably be 1k a month where the flat would be £750pm, we figure that once settled into a routine we could easily manage on the £750, I understand this will be a little less once the letting agent takes a fee.
> Thanks
> Dean


Ok good you have thought it though and you will be releasing equity but still keeping a property for ahead !


----------



## Drover (May 3, 2020)

kenspain said:


> When I first come to Spain I made the mistake and brought a house that was not legal because it was cheap cost me a lot of money to make it legal to live in, I have a friend who has lived on his land for 3 years now with no problem's I will find out were he went and send you a PM with the address and you can email them .


Spain has some very strange property laws, you need a very good English  speaking Spanish solicitor to check things when buying in Spain  I have family living in Spain , an order put on a property hundreds of years ago by a government/court will still be due at any time.
A place in the sun (yes the tv programme) did have solicitors on it. Not sure if they still do but it might be worth checking.  I used one when looking in Spain and they said not to buy what we wanted as they could not get proof of Deeds from a split piece of land . It would stay owned by whoever held the original deeds and they could not be found.
I say deeds but cant remember the spanish equivalent wording.


----------



## in h (May 3, 2020)

gypo said:


> wouldn't be such a problem if we had to return every now and again to comply


I'm not sure you have grasped the implications here. 
If you are in the EU for 90 days in any 180 period, you have to leave the EU for a full 90 days before you can come back in. 
Alternatively, if you are in the EU for two months, then in the UK or elsewhere for a month, you can then only return to the EU for another month before having to leave. You can't then return until the "number of days in the EU in the last 180 days" falls below 90.
It's not just a matter of returning "every now and again".


----------



## in h (May 3, 2020)

gypo said:


> We have worked out that if we sell our house and buy a flat we can get a rental income from the flat of at least £750pm with no mortgage.
> In a years time I will be able to take a pension of approx 9k a year.


Be careful when choosing the flat. Leaving aside the stamp duty ramifications, as long as you are "young retired" and are both in good health it should be fine. 

If something goes wrong (one of you gets health problems, which tends to happen as people age) or one (or both) of you tire of the nomadic lifestyle, or your relationship falls apart, you will probably find it quite tricky to get rid of the tenants, and even harder to sell the flat and buy something that suits you as a home.

You will find it very hard to get a mortgage at that point, so changing properties then will be difficult. 

My advice is to buy a house that will be suitable for you to live in on your return. Move into it for a while before going on your trip.


----------



## jagmanx (May 3, 2020)

The issue with flats as I see it are
1 leasehold
2 management fees
I agree with @inh a smaller house (freehold) is better. Yes evicting tenants is impossible today (virus)..but with short term lets (1 or 2 years) should be OK. We had to evict 1 tenant due to non-payment. With eviction the LA are legally bound to re-house


----------



## John H (May 3, 2020)

Because of the 90 day rule, which has been mentioned by others above, you will either have to spend a large part of the winter in the UK (or Ireland or some other equally cold part of non-Schengen Europe) or take the Morocco option that others have mentioned. The latter creates health insurance problems, because most companies either will not let you spend more than 3 months at a time out of the UK or charge a very high premium to do so. If you take the Morocco option, you need to research the health insurance angle very carefully - it could leave a hefty dent in your budget. The same could well be true of vehicle insurance, so check with your insurer.  

One further point about the Morocco option - don't stretch the time limits to the maximum. If you spend 90 days in the Schengen zone and then go to Morocco for 90 days (the maximum you are allowed there without a visa) then the times are critical. Miss your ferry by a day and the authorities could get very rigid about it - especially if it is the Moroccan authorities. 91 days in Morocco could lead to a major fine and confiscation of your vehicle. I would advise that you spend, for example, two and a half months in the Schengen zone, then just under 3 months in Morocco - this gives you flexibility at both ends. 

If you decide to spend part or all of the winter in the UK, then bear in  mind that a lot of campsites will be closed. Also, basic things like laundry and getting your towels dry can be a pain. In a house, drying a towel after a shower is no problem but in a motorhome, where damp is the bane of many lives, a wet towel can be a major problem. Not insurmountable but you have to think of the little things that didn't concern you before.

We have been "most-timing" since 2002. We have a house but my sister lives in it full time and we spend no more than a month a year in it (although that may well change if we aren't allowed to travel for some time because of Covid 19). Up to now we have had the freedom to travel around Europe at will but it is going to need a lot more careful planning in the future because of leaving the EU.  However, we do hope to continue. It is a great life and whatever you decide, I wish you luck in your new life.


----------



## Canalsman (May 3, 2020)

This web page helps with the 90 day rule:









						Schengen Calculator - Calculate Your Legal Short-Stay in Europe
					

Schengen Calculator for Visa-Free visitors and holders of multiple entry visas valid for six months and with 90 days of permitted duration of stay.




					www.schengenvisainfo.com
				




The calculator allows you to enter a series of dates and calculated the days spent in Schengen. 

Here's a simple example with three 90 day visits:


----------



## in h (May 3, 2020)

I'm not clear about what counts as in and what counts as out. For example, Ireland has a special rule for GB citizens, so they can stay there as long as they choose, but does Ireland count as "out" for resetting the 90 day limit?


----------



## Canalsman (May 3, 2020)

Ireland is not in Schengen, so yes it does.


----------



## REC (May 4, 2020)

@gypo sorry so long replying! We don't full-time but did spend a year without a "fixed address" as we were travelling around in various countries, not all with the van. Everything, insurance, tax, licenses want permanent address, so if you have family able to be used, willing to sort your official post, definitely worth registering yourself there ( and on electoral roll) . Personally, for fulltiming, I would take your monthly figure and add 20% for things you didn't plan! And if unnecessary, have a couple of treats! Regarding rental agents, ours is quite happy for us to give them the name of tradesmen we prefer to use so if you shop around and find maybe a smaller agency, you may be able to negotiate percentage fees etc.


----------



## gypo (May 4, 2020)

Many thanks for the reply, we are just waiting on the estate agents opening back up now and we are ready to start things. We have worked out that an average month should cost approx £650 not allowing for unexpected things, we should have all being well about 50k in the pot that obviously we wouldn’t want to use but can if need be.
Thanks
Dean


----------



## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

Pleased to see your revised figures.
The first year will be a pain as no pension and you will have unknown expenses so allow up to £10,000 to be spent
You may well have taken this into account already in calculating your pot
Maybe 50% from your pot and 50% from Flat income. 
Once your pension starts your pot should be stable.and maybe a small refund of say  £100 a month
Best wishes


----------



## Deleted member 75956 (May 11, 2020)

gypo said:


> Hi all,
> Today me and the better half have been chatting and come up with a game plan to go full timing in the van, hopefully being able to spend most of the time in France or spain.
> We have worked out that if we sell our house and buy a flat we can get a rental income from the flat of at least £750pm with no mortgage.
> In a years time I will be able to take a pension of approx 9k a year.
> ...


Only allowing 3 months in Europe once brexit is finalised has been mentioned as a posability. Also look into European insurance for continual periods abroad. Sounds great though. Keep us updated. Al


----------



## in h (May 11, 2020)

Also allow for keeping a lump sum in case of catastrophe. A truck might rip the side off the van, or you might suddenly be unable to drive, or some major mechanical problem might put the motorhome in the garage for two months. So you need enough put by to cover accommodation for that sort of time as well as enough to fix the problem.


----------



## REC (May 12, 2020)

in h said:


> Also allow for keeping a lump sum in case of catastrophe. A truck might rip the side off the van, or you might suddenly be unable to drive, or some major mechanical problem might put the motorhome in the garage for two months. So you need enough put by to cover accommodation for that sort of time as well as enough to fix the problem.


Think the 50k "pot" mentioned should cover  them ok...


----------



## in h (May 12, 2020)

REC said:


> Think the 50k "pot" mentioned should cover  them ok...


Yes, that's about the amount you should aim for. But weren't they talking about using that to cover the first year?


----------



## REC (May 12, 2020)

Think the plan is to live on rental and the lump is a slush fund? Posts  #25 & #62


----------



## Nabsim (May 12, 2020)

Living in a van full time is not the same as going on holiday in the van, it costs less to full time than it does to live in bricks and mortar. If you live in bricks and mortar and already have a van (which you do) then it will be considerably less as you already cover road tax and insurance.

If you want to go on holiday full time then...


----------



## in h (May 12, 2020)

John H said:


> ... you will either have to spend a large part of the winter in the UK (or Ireland or some other equally cold part of non-Schengen Europe) or take the Morocco option that others have mentioned.


Might make more sense to spend the warm months in the UK. 
That's certainly what I'd do, but then again, I don't like hot weather.


----------



## jagmanx (May 13, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Living in a van full time is not the same as going on holiday in the van, it costs less to full time than it does to live in bricks and mortar. If you live in bricks and mortar and already have a van (which you do) then it will be considerably less as you already cover road tax and insurance.
> 
> If you want to go on holiday full time then...


Yes/no
Indeed simple living in the vehicle can be very cheap.
I based my £1000 a month on living and touring (3 months in Europe - holiday and 3 months in UK just living).
So significant fuel in Europe but Minimal campcosts .......the opposite in UK.
Extra holiday costs in Europe such as road tolls and entance fees.
Very few meals out but Beer and wine in house.
If the winter is a bit cold then Spain is warmer and cheaper apart from getting there !
Morocco or Turkey would add more travelling costs
Take it easy the first year ! You will find losts of minor bits and pieces to be done many of which are cheap.
Also more wear & tear
I suggest Solar and refillable gas are worthy of consideration and funded from slush
For pleasantly warm days when you are staying put I would prefer to have the use of an awning


----------



## Derekoak (May 13, 2020)

Concerning the 90 day rule. What is the status of the old Yugoslavia countries Croatia,  bosnia hergovia, north Macedonia  Albania, etc   and also Romania and  Bulgaria and the Russian enclave on the Baltic. None of those are part of the schengen area and might be a bolt hole? Has anyone any experience. Some will be warmer or at least brighter and drier  than the the Uk in winter? Parts of Ukraine and Belarus are closer than Morocco and Turkey , and they are still in the continent of Europe.


----------



## jacquigem (May 13, 2020)

Derekoak said:


> Concerning the 90 day rule. What is the status of the old Yugoslavia countries Croatia,  bosnia hergovia, north Macedonia  Albania, etc   and also Romania and  Bulgaria and the Russian enclave on the Baltic. None of those are part of the schengen area and might be a bolt hole? Has anyone any experience. Some will be warmer or at least brighter and drier  than the the Uk in winter? Parts of Ukraine and Belarus are closer than Morocco and Turkey , and they are still in the continent of Europe.


Yes we did look at this possibility before deciding what to do . I think I found that if they are not Schengen countries you need a visa and that will be limited to 90 days anyway . So it will probably  be possible but a bit of extra work plus mileage  and what happens to the timescales if there are unavoidable delays?. Might be wrong so happy to be corrected ? Whilst weather probably better than Britain ,decided we would plump for sunny spain


----------



## John H (May 13, 2020)

Derekoak said:


> Concerning the 90 day rule. What is the status of the old Yugoslavia countries Croatia,  bosnia hergovia, north Macedonia  Albania, etc   and also Romania and  Bulgaria and the Russian enclave on the Baltic. None of those are part of the schengen area and might be a bolt hole? Has anyone any experience. Some will be warmer or at least brighter and drier  than the the Uk in winter? Parts of Ukraine and Belarus are closer than Morocco and Turkey , and they are still in the continent of Europe.



As you correctly point out, none of the countries you listed are in Schengen (although Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are in the process of joining) and thus are not part of the 90 day rule. Therefore you could, after 90 days in Schengen, tour any or all of these for 90 days and then re-enter Schengen. However, the reason that most of us like to spend the winter in Spain is because of the weather and the winter weather in all of those countries can be very severe. I don't think I would like to spend winter in Bulgaria in a motorhome but that is my personal view. In 2018, we spent autumn in Croatia and Bosnia and left pretty sharply in early October because the weather became very wintery. A couple of years before that, in December, we were sunning ourselves in Spain when the next pitch was filled by a bloke who had managed to make a run from Croatia after getting snowed in. If you like snow, then fair enough but not for me


----------



## John H (May 13, 2020)

in h said:


> Might make more sense to spend the warm months in the UK.
> That's certainly what I'd do, but then again, I don't like hot weather.



True - but the problem is that, with the 90 day rule, you still have to spend part of the winter out of the Schengen area. For example, you could spend October, November and December in Spain but then have to come back to the UK for January, February and March (or vice-versa).


----------



## jagmanx (May 13, 2020)

Given it is a rolling rule
Maybe 6 weeks trvelling through France and Spain say 45 days
30 Days in morocco.. Then when back in Spain ..would you get obviosly the 45 days but then another 30 because of Morocco ?
If so basically 5 months The original 90 days plus another 30 in Morocco..then another 30 because of Morocco ? on the assumption every day out gives yo another day in ?


----------



## glenm (May 13, 2020)

Hi a few little expenses you haven't mentioned but do add up. breakdown cover, dentil repairs, phone rental, Wi-Fi rental, gas lpg, and yearly MOT and service.
the other thing you could think about is getting a seasonal pitch in the uk small independent sites often have deals for long stays.
I usually go abroad once a year the rest of the time is touring in the uk it is a beautiful country.
best of luck on your venture.


----------



## gypo (May 13, 2020)

Thanks all for continuing to reply on this thread, all good advice, I will keep you posted
Many thanks
D


----------



## TJBi (May 13, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Given it is a rolling rule
> Maybe 6 weeks trvelling through France and Spain say 45 days
> 30 Days in morocco.. Then when back in Spain ..would you get obviosly the 45 days but then another 30 because of Morocco ?
> If so basically 5 months The original 90 days plus another 30 in Morocco..then another 30 because of Morocco ? on the assumption every day out gives yo another day in ?


No, because it's a maximum of 90 in 180.


----------



## Derekoak (May 13, 2020)

John H said:


> As you correctly point out, none of the countries you listed are in Schengen (although Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are in the process of joining) and thus are not part of the 90 day rule. Therefore you could, after 90 days in Schengen, tour any or all of these for 90 days and then re-enter Schengen. However, the reason that most of us like to spend the winter in Spain is because of the weather and the winter weather in all of those countries can be very severe. I don't think I would like to spend winter in Bulgaria in a motorhome but that is my personal view. In 2018, we spent autumn in Croatia and Bosnia and left pretty sharply in early October because the weather became very wintery. A couple of years before that, in December, we were sunning ourselves in Spain when the next pitch was filled by a bloke who had managed to make a run from Croatia after getting snowed in. If you like snow, then fair enough but not for me


Thank you for your experience. I suggested all the close non schengen countries . I was hoping to find experience of the best?   I would have thought that being close to the Adriatic coast  and as far south as northern macedonia might give you a near Greek winter climate? That is a bit further away than The Croatian coast but still after 3 months you could follow the coast up and cross Italy and follow the med down to the preferred Spain  before a return to the Uk? We have been to Provence in November/December so I would think the road to Spain would be mostly possible . I do not have much experience so would be interested in what can go wrong.
 I have cycle wild camped in Croatia. At the time it seemed like a cheap Italy, but  I think it was May it was not any part of october to  march.
    If snow  did catch you out maybe there is a ferry from Northern macedonia or Greece to Italy that runs throughout the year? It would seem to be worth a bit of expense to have a winter alternative to The Uk for the first part of winter, the 2nd being spent in southern Italy or Spain, then back to the Uk as it starts getting lighter?  I really dislike short winter days.
 We have tried North Africa but my wife did not like it despite being sedately dressed and hair covered she was hassled too much by men.


----------



## Derekoak (May 13, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> Yes we did look at this possibility before deciding what to do . I think I found that if they are not Schengen countries you need a visa and that will be limited to 90 days anyway . So it will probably  be possible but a bit of extra work plus mileage  and what happens to the timescales if there are unavoidable delays?. Might be wrong so happy to be corrected ? Whilst weather probably better than Britain ,decided we would plump for sunny spain


Perhaps for me , who hates dark winters it would be worth getting a 90 day visa for half the winter say just north of Greece and then 90 days in Greece or Italy or Spain then a return to the uk for say 4 months.
 The travel may be more than Spain for the winter, the  Uk for the longer half of the year, but less travel than Morocco or Turkey
 I just looked it up you do not need a visa for Northern Macedonia, used as an example,  unless you stay longer than 90 days. You do need to register with the police within 24 hour of arrival. I do not know if that restricts touring. I should have looked up Albania as that being coastal may be warmer.


----------



## John H (May 13, 2020)

Derekoak said:


> Thank you for your experience. I suggested all the close non schengen countries . I was hoping to find experience of the best?   I would have thought that being close to the Adriatic coast  and as far south as northern macedonia might give you a near Greek winter climate? That is a bit further away than The Croatian coast but still after 3 months you could follow the coast up and cross Italy and follow the med down to the preferred Spain  before a return to the Uk? We have been to Provence in November/December so I would think the road to Spain would be mostly possible . I do not have much experience so would be interested in what can go wrong.
> I have cycle wild camped in Croatia. At the time it seemed like a cheap Italy, but  I think it was May it was not any part of october to  march.
> If snow  did catch you out maybe there is a ferry from Northern macedonia or Greece to Italy that runs throughout the year? It would seem to be worth a bit of expense to have a winter alternative to The Uk for the first part of winter, the 2nd being spent in southern Italy or Spain, then back to the Uk as it starts getting lighter?  I really dislike short winter days.
> We have tried North Africa but my wife did not like it despite being sedately dressed and hair covered she was hassled too much by men.



It all depends on what you want from your trip but the winters in mainland Greece and Turkey are not warm. It can regularly snow in Athens. Over the past 3 or 4 years, I have done a lot of research into what might replace our extended winters in southern Spain and have come to the conclusion that, for us, the only possibilities to extend the 90 days you can spend in Schengen are to either spend part of the winter in Morocco (which we have done on a couple of occasions and enjoyed) or to bring the motorhome back to the UK after 3 months and then fly out to somewhere warm and cheap - eg Egypt or Thailand -  for the rest of the winter. The problem is that in all the non-Schengen European countries you have mentioned, the weather can be as cold or colder than the UK from October through to March, so you could end up shivering for the 3 months that you have to be out of Schengen. Some people wouldn't mind that at all but if you do then the options are limited.


----------



## Derekoak (May 14, 2020)

I have been to Cyprus mid winter. It snowed there too inland at altitude but it was warm enough. The main thing for me was it was bright and long daylight. I aģree all winter in Spain Portugal is better, but out of reach due to Brexit.


----------



## jagmanx (May 14, 2020)

Derekoak said:


> I have been to Cyprus mid winter. It snowed there too inland at altitude but it was warm enough. The main thing for me was it was bright and long daylight. I aģree all winter in Spain Portugal is better, but out of reach due to Brexit.


Indeed as you post it is all 3
The long dark nights
The cold
The rain
Spain & Portugal yes BUT not anymore
Except that just dong the maximun 3 months is better than nothing !
An extra month in Morocco thus giving 4 months would help..But not in 2020/21

Thailand is warm & cheap but at the moment No non-Thais allowed in and no Flights !


----------



## John H (May 14, 2020)

Derekoak said:


> I have been to Cyprus mid winter. It snowed there too inland at altitude but it was warm enough. The main thing for me was it was bright and long daylight. I aģree all winter in Spain Portugal is better, but out of reach due to Brexit.



Cyprus, further south than mainland Greece,  isn't yet in Schengen but formally started the process to join last year so, presumably, it won't be long before it is. There is no getting away from it - if you want more than 90 days winter sun in post-Brexit Britain you will have to think beyond Europe.


----------



## John H (May 14, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Indeed as you post it is all 3
> The long dark nights
> The cold
> The rain
> ...



True - I think we can take it as read that we are talking about some future post-virus world. This winter, it is looking more and more likely that we will just have to freeze.


----------



## jacquigem (May 14, 2020)

John H said:


> Cyprus, further south than mainland Greece,  isn't yet in Schengen but formally started the process to join last year so, presumably, it won't be long before it is. There is no getting away from it - if you want more than 90 days winter sun in post-Brexit Britain you will have to think beyond Europe.


Or residancy ?


----------



## John H (May 14, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> Or residancy ?



True but it is not simple. First you have to acquire an address, the process is time consuming and there could be many financial and other implications. I'm not saying that it is impossible but that anyone considering it should investigate it very carefully. Some friends have decided it is right for them and have done it; we have looked into it and decided against it.


----------



## jagmanx (May 14, 2020)

Wherever you go over 90 days and sometimes 1 month there will always be hurdles and costs and future considerations.
Hence PRE-BREXIT in Europe wa brilliant....Sadly not now !...To quote Eric Idle "SAY NO MORE !"


----------

