# Anyone else not bothered with solar or genny and gone with a Sterling charger?



## JED THE SPREAD (Apr 12, 2013)

I just had a good read through the "generator versus solar panels ???" thread and found it really interesting. As this is primarily a wild camping forum then I would have thought most would want to be off grid, well you would have to be really due to the nature of why we read and post on here....

I noticed that most of the people posting on this thread have fairly substantial motor homes and assume that most of you will be running your fridges on gas/lpg? I don't know what heating is usually in large motor homes or factory converted campers but assume its an Eberspacher? I also assume you have loads of storage under the seats and stuff and some of you might have a garage for a moped or something in the rear of your camper?

One thing that I have noticed is that most of the discussions on power usage boils down to solar power or genny use and the age old thing that follows about gennys being rude (rightly so IMHO) and solar being no good in our winters as they wont run at 100% or at all. Generators have their place and cost loads and you always have to fuel them at extra cost, solar has its place but are fitted on your roof and when its hot enough for them to run 100% and there is shade you will park in it and you wont be using your 12v anyway because you should be outside enjoying the nice weather and having a BBQ or what ever. I am sure this discussion has been done to death many many many times so lets leave that one for past threads out there.

I have a quite small campervan compared to some of you on here and although it is small I have fitted a 12v compressor fridge so the only gas/lpg we use is from out under slung 20L LPG tank that has a BBQ take off for the occasional gas BBQ and the two cooking rings we have. A 20L tank will last us about a year using the van loads, the heater is an Eberspacher that uses diesel out of the tank (that we always have) so all we need is a decent 12v supply. So that should bring me back to the age old genny V solar debate right?

Well no not really because I don't have either of them and I never run out of 12v power in the winter with a 12v compressor fridge going and an Ebber going most of the time as well as a DVD player in the evenings for us as a family to watch. I don't run out of 12v power in the summer now even though the compressor fridge stays at -18 in the freezer part (even with me popping warm beer in it), how o I manage to do this?

I have an alternator to battery Sterling charger and its amazing... I am surprised most of you either don't know about them or don't use them especially as most of you have loads of room for a coupe of extra batteries. Alan, Jake and I from CampervanCulture.com all use them and we love them.

Anyone else on here using a Sterling charger?

Jed


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## yorkslass (Apr 12, 2013)

hi, jed we have a b to b charger and four batteries. we did have power issues before we put it in but ,touch wood we have been ok since.


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## FULL TIMER (Apr 12, 2013)

I've always used the Sterling battery chargers on most of the more specialist conversions we do such as NHS, Fire Service and local SOS bus etc and of course my own conversion, but have only just started looking at the battery to battery chargers in fact I've just fitted one on a conversion we are doing for an American who we are building a vehicle to carry all his photography equipment and  the processing equipment involved, he will also be living in it and wilding most of the time. I have found all their stuff to be of good quality and reliable ,


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## ellisboy (Apr 12, 2013)

Hello Jed! Nice post,don't use a b2b or any other sterling in my van.I use a smartcom relay split charge system.Its quite cheap to assemble and is wired off the starter batt and charges two 125ah LB's whilst on the move.Heating is an ebber and also run a comp fridge.There is a 100 watt panel on the roof,but then there's room on the roof.We don't use sites so only stay in one place for a couple of days at the most,so never run out of 12 volt.I don't see gennies are a problem if you don't use sites,don't have one at the mo,but if I did then would run it on gas as the tank is 38l and I've only filled it once!


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## BillyPants (Apr 12, 2013)

I don't have the alternator to battery charger, but I do have a 50amp Sterling Battery to Battery charger. It simply connects to the engine battery, then to the leisure batteries.
However this isn't a primary device, it's only used when driving so for you to run everything you must drive a lot. I agree with you though, I have had mine for 6 years and it's almost invaluable. 
You said you have a 20 litre gas tank that lasts a year. 20 litres is less than 2 x 6kg propane tanks, and although you only use for cooking, I'm surprised you get a full year out of it. Perhaps you aren't away often?
As most motorhomers with high power needs will tell you, there is no one answer for power. Battery to Battery charger, generator, mains charger for when on EH and solar panels to help out. All is good and all helps out.


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## sparrks (Apr 12, 2013)

I use a B2B works great, it feeds 2 x 85Ah leisure batts. Power use is compressor fridge, led lights, powered fans, multiple chargers, laptop and portable roadpro oven. Would like a Solar panel but bit tight on space on roof - needs to be a max of 600mm wide. Why carry a genny and fuel when I can just start my engine and use the B2B.


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## Tony Lee (Apr 13, 2013)

The vehicle we are in the process of buying in Patagonia - an Iveco Daily 4x4 has served the previous owners very well as they have driven overland from Europe to Korea and then all over South America - over several years. It has no generator and no solar yet has done all that they asked of it. They ran two computers, a diesel heater and basic stuff like lighting and a water pump and while there are obviously limitations on how extravagant a lifestyle such a basic system can support, it is quite practical. The only means of charging the house batteries was via a basic split charge relay, and when that blew up, by manual isolating switches.

I'll probably make a few minor changes but it will still rely on charging the house battery from the engine as there is no room for a generator and that far south, a solar system is not going to do much good.


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## Beemer (Apr 13, 2013)

I do not have a Sterling Charger, but a solar panel connected to a regulator to a split charger relay.
Generally, smaller vans get used more than the larger vans, so whilst the motorhome is parked up, a solar panel can do it's business charging the batteries (both leisure and cab, in my case).
My last motorhome let me down when I first bought it, because the Erbespacher system would not run without a healthy battery supply, we had to keep starting the engine to run it during a new year's eve camp.  I eventually fitted a solar panel, and an extra battery, and the problem never arose again.
The extra space inside a motorhome cannot be heated with cab heating alone unlike a purpose made campervan can.

My current 'van has three batteries, all being topped up by a 100w solar panel, even through the winter.  I sometimes connect to EHU at home in the garden, during the winter, so that a small oil filled radiator can be left on low during the really cold spells.
If the vehicle is laid up for a couple of weeks or more, it is nice to know that the batteries are healthy when you come to start everything up.  
Something the Sterling Charger cannot do unless you use the vehicle.


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## shortcircuit (Apr 13, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> I don't have the alternator to battery charger, but I do have a 50amp Sterling Battery to Battery charger. It simply connects to the engine battery, then to the leisure batteries.
> .



Thats the same as the alternator is connected directly to the starter battery


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 13, 2013)

We are in our Motorhome 24/7/365.

I went to Solar 240w.  Gasparini 12v LPG auto start/stop generator.  I also fitted a Waeco 40amp B2B.

Even with this lot overwintering in the van in Spain, France and the UK, I still ran low at times on battery power from my 3 x 110Ah batteries.  

Solar in winter provides some recharge.  but in dull conditions in January only produced less than 10Ah 
The LPG genny uses gas which is precious in Spain if running from a tank and you are wild parking, so no bottles outside.  
The B2B either needs you to run the engine or go for a drive to put charge back into the batteries.  If you take 5amp out of a battery for 10 hours 50Ah.  It takes much more than 1 hour at 50 amps to replace that charge.

From solar we averaged 27ah per day in January in southern Spain.  Our consumption was well in excess of 50Ah per day.

I have now ditched most of the mains powered equipment which was running off the 2kw inverter.  The inverter was not heavy in itself as it only draws 1 amp on standby.

The Sky Box was the biggest offender needing the inverter whenever we wanted to watch UK TV.  I now have a 12v HD one instead.

John


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## JED THE SPREAD (Apr 13, 2013)

Great replies guys.

Good to see some of you have them too. My mate Jake who does CampervanCulture.com with me contacted Sterling Power and spoke with Mr Sterling directly to get info on what would be the best batteries to use straight from the horses mouth as it were. He was told to use normal car starter batteries as they charge faster and you can service them easily by topping up the water levels because the super fast charging takes some of the water out over long periods of fast charge and they all must be of the same type and age. Even in my small camper I managed to fit in 4 65ah batteries and I have room for to more should I want to expand. 





When I had two leisure batteries we worked out it would take 700 miles of driving to fully charge them using a traditional standard zig unit so even if you run the engine if the batteries run low it would not make much difference or last very long. Since I upped the battery bank and have a Sterling charger and I have the means to charge the battery bank in a fraction of that time we have had more power than we can shake a stick at. We usually only wild camp at one spot for a maximum of two nights because we like to explore and don't want to take the pee in places other people are around.
You can save even more power of course if you wanted by doing a couple of small things,

If you need your Ebber powered heating on, switch it on with the engine running. They draw loads of power on start up for the first minute or so so just let it fire up and settle down and keep it on steady low heat with the engine off. 

While driving and if you have a 12v compressor fridge, crank up (or should that be down) the temperature setting to maximum. If you have any room then fill the freezer bit with bottled water then when you are camped up swap the frozen bottles to the fridge compartment so the fridge wont need to work as hard if parked up for a little while.

And finally and pretty obviously, just make sure you have everything plugged in that will charge when driving along.



The Sterling works pretty well for us I have to say especially as we go off road quite a bit and standard solar panels would get smashed to bits.



Jed


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## groyne (Apr 13, 2013)

I've got the Sterling charger and 2x110ah batteries, this setup suits us fine. Unlike a lot of others, we're not very power hungry electrical wise, just the main cabin light on in the evening if we are reading or the Laptop if we are watching a film. We only put the extractor fan on if we are cooking with the door shut. If my wife wants to dry her hair, she can stick her head out of the window whilst I'm driving.
Also we don't tend to stop in any one place for more than 2 nights. Usually one night and we are gone.


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## BillyPants (Apr 13, 2013)

shortcircuit said:


> Thats the same as the alternator is connected directly to the starter battery



Not quite. They are different beasts. The B2B was designed to eliminate some of the inherent problems in connecting directly to the alternator.


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## BillyPants (Apr 13, 2013)

Charles Sterling is renowned for his love of and support for standard wet lead acid batteries due to their simplicity. However he is misleading you about them for leisure purposes by not telling the whole story.

Engine start batteries are designed to give a high surge of power for a short period of time. They run almost completely charged permanently, apart from occasions in winter when people don't look after them. So it's not unusual for engine batteries to last 10-12 and even 15 years. Magnetti Marellis will easily reach a dozen years without any problem at all. 

Leisure batteries are used in a different way, delivering less current, but over a much longer period of time, and more often than not, they are not recharged straight after use as an engine battery is through driving, so they are discharged to some level a lot of the time. Being in a discharged state wrecks batteries. Really, it kills them. Also, a battery is considered to be 'flat' or discharged when it reaches 50% of capacity, or about 12.2 volts for a 12v system. So if you have 2 x 110ahrs cheap lead acid batteries, your current capacity is only 110ahrs. Every time you exceed that figure you wreck the battery a little more. That's why lots of campers have to replace their leisure batteries annually or every 2 years. 

Someone on this thread said something along the lines of however much power you take from a battery, bank on putting at least double that back and he's right. There's 3 main stages to most chargers: (four if you count the assessment stage) Stage one is sometimes called bulk or boost stage, where the charger is putting it's max current in at a steadily increasing voltage. This charges the battery to about 80%. The second stage is absorption, where the charging voltage is held constant, (mine is 14.8) and the current gradually decreases until the battery is charged. The final stage is float where the battery is simply maintained with  a low voltage. (Mine is 13.2) 
If you miss out the absorption stage, or shut it off even a half hour early, on a regular basis, or now and again over a long time, you will wreck your battery.

What happens is whenever your battery is not 100% charged sulphation is occurring. Sulphation is where deposits build up on the plates reducing the charge capacity and shortening the overall battery life. Equalisation, or a burst of maybe 15.5 volts can sometimes shake some loose, but it produces at best a questionable result. The more lead you have in your battery, the longer it will take to destroy them. Some batteries are happy to be discharged down to 20% DOD (depth of discharge), but not frequently, and with the expectation that you are going to recharge straight away. Despite what they say, NO lead acid battery that you buy from any camping shop or garage is going to happily deliver more than 50% DOD. They will do it, you may get down to 11 or even 10.5 volts, but their life will be measured in months. 

I have 2 x Trojan J185 HAC batteries. These batteries are 15 inches wide and 15 inches tall and 7 inches thick, and weigh 58 kilos each. They'e about £225 each, but that's not even double what cheap batteries sell for now and the Trojans last way longer. They're jammed with lead, so they easily go down to 20% DOD without suffering as long as they're charged fairly quickly afterwards, but usually I stick to 50% DOD. How do you measure your depth of discharge? I can tell you that sticking a volt meter on is almost a waste of your time. Check the electrolyte. Here's a little chart I lifted from a website Battery Charging Tutorial | ChargingChargers.com for 12 volt batteries:

                 DOD                 V'age       SG   
                100%               12.7         1.265
                   75%                12.4       1.225
                   50%                12.2       1.190
                   25%                12.0       1.155
            Discharged             11.9        1.120 

So, your voltage should never drop below 12.2 volts as measured by checking with a SG meter (£3 in most car accessory shops) at 1.190

Finally, if you've got more than one battery  and have them in parallel, you can't just link them up with a bit of wire. Use the correct cabling (35mm sq for mine) to prevent voltage loss, POs lead to one end of the bank and neg lead to the opposite end, all cables the same length and charger and load both attached to the same point. I use a Sterling 12v fused distribution box for mine.

I've missed loads out but I just wanted to make sure people understood that engine batteries are no good for most leisure use, and wet lead acid batteries as sold in camper shops and like places, aren't that good. Batteries should not be discharged below 12.2 volts and should be recharged as soon as possible after use, for the appropriate length of time. 

I'm glad my errors and learning over the years have amounted to something 

So,


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## sparrks (Apr 13, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Charles Sterling is renowned for his love of and support for standard wet lead acid batteries due to their simplicity. However he is misleading you about them for leisure purposes by not telling the whole story.
> 
> Engine start batteries are designed to give a high surge of power for a short period of time. They run almost completely charged permanently, apart from occasions in winter when people don't look after them. So it's not unusual for engine batteries to last 10-12 and even 15 years. Magnetti Marellis will easily reach a dozen years without any problem at all.
> 
> ...



If you have a decent solar setup backed by a B2B charger, ie over capacity of charging (not over charging of batteries) and minimal draw on the battery then the those cheap batteries will last as long a starter would. Large solar panels would supply all the daily power usage (assuming weather permits) and still have surplus capacity to charge the batts.
The big problems occur when you have a large draw on the batteries and poor charging and you start to "cycle" the batteries.
You can have 600Ah capacity but if you're using say 100Ah daily and are only putting in 40Ah they will end up flat. Your charging capacity should be at the very minimum what you use but twice that should be the target point

If you use 35mm cable between the batteries there is no reason to have the cables the same length as the voltdrop will be virtually non-existant, unless you are using large inverters unlike with thin cable.

Out of curiosity what is your daily power usage?


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## BillyPants (Apr 13, 2013)

Introducing solar power further complicates things as you have what's called "opportunistic charging". Dependent on your use and charge of course. Broadly, this is the same as using some battery power, then partially charging whilst driving with a B2B installed. Unless you complete the absorption stage, it is not a full cycle and your batteries won't be charged. Yes a cheap battery would last longer, assuming you don't discharge much and batteries are fully charged a minimum of weekly. 

Assuming you can have large solar panels on your roof, and assuming they track the suns movements, and assuming there was sun for most of the day, and assuming your usage fits....etc etc etc each person has to work the figures out for themselves. You can't say large solar panels would supply all the daily usage for instance for me, as my daily usage is approx 50-60 ahrs per day (I work on the internet from my camper) even with a large solar panel...in fact even with 2 large solar panels,  I'd struggle to replace that amount of power during one day. Obviously not everyone uses that kind of power, but most use a lot more than they realise. I have been intending to fit a couple of large panels to my roof for about a year, one day I may just get around to it 

I've trashed 3 sets of lead acids batteries over the years. 35m cabling appears to help, (In fact voltage drop on my system at 15v is .02v although how accurate the meter is I don't know) as does not discharging below 50% DOD and charging to float at least once a week. 

PS: I have been told that idling HDi engines to charge batteries can cause plaquing to the injectors and other damage to the engine, and of course it uses a lot of diesel!


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## sparrks (Apr 13, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Introducing solar power further complicates things as you have what's called "opportunistic charging". Dependent on your use and charge of course. Broadly, this is the same as using some battery power, then partially charging whilst driving with a B2B installed. Unless you complete the absorption stage, it is not a full cycle and your batteries won't be charged. Yes a cheap battery would last longer, assuming you don't discharge much and batteries are fully charged a minimum of weekly.
> 
> Assuming you can have large solar panels on your roof, and assuming they track the suns movements, and assuming there was sun for most of the day, and assuming your usage fits....etc etc etc each person has to work the figures out for themselves. You can't say large solar panels would supply all the daily usage for instance for me, as my daily usage is approx 50-60 ahrs per day (I work on the internet from my camper) even with a large solar panel...in fact even with 2 large solar panels,  I'd struggle to replace that amount of power during one day. Obviously not everyone uses that kind of power, but most use a lot more than they realise. I have been intending to fit a couple of large panels to my roof for about a year, one day I may just get around to it
> 
> ...



Me thinks you worry too much! How about a name change to WillyWorry :raofl::raofl:

I'm guessing you have a large van, those batteries you have would be much too big for mine plus I wouldn't want to carry all that surplus weight.

It just shows that we all have different ideas and needs and is great when we find something that works for us. Good luck with your panels.

I don't know if I missed it but what do use to charge your batteries?

With reference to the 35mm cable the volt drop is 1.3mV (mV/A/m) so whilst does add up, cleanliness and tightness of connections are more important.


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## ivecotrucker (Apr 13, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Not quite. They are different beasts. The B2B was designed to eliminate some of the inherent problems in connecting directly to the alternator.



Well, Yes & No in my opinion; there are differences but their basic idea is similar i.e. to 'squeeze' more charge into the leisure batteries for x hours of engine use. 

Alternator to battery systems work by dragging down the voltage of the sensor side of the alternator to make it work harder; alternators are capable of chucking out a lot of juice & so they are usually limited to suit the 12V electrics of the vehicle. However, over the last decade or so, vehicle manufacturers have gradually increased the alternator output to around 14.2V - 14.4V which renders an alternator to battery system rather redundant. Our Iveco happily chucks out 14.4V at idle. 

B2B's work by stepping up the charge voltage from the vehicle battery & usually now include an 'intelligent' charging profile.

To answer the OP, no, we use neither solar (tempted but so far avoided) nor a B2B & certainly not an external genny (the bane of any peaceful wildcamp spot & also festivals - why do people have to use so many Ahr's ?). Just very thick cabling between the starter battery & the leisure bank via a manually controlled 1000A relay - simples, & no split diode/relay etc. power losses.

The reason for equalising the charging cables is because of the inherent problem of trying to charge a battery bank wired in parallel. We've noticed a considerable improvement in our off grid capability since going over to a 6V in series system.

Nice post BillyP !.


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## ivecotrucker (Apr 13, 2013)

I don't know anything about 'placque-ing injectors' but extensive idling of modern diesels can damage EGR valves & exhaust catalyzers (if fitted).


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## BillyPants (Apr 13, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Me thinks you worry too much! How about a name change to WillyWorry :raofl::raofl:
> 
> I'm guessing you have a large van, those batteries you have would be much too big for mine plus I wouldn't want to carry all that surplus weight.
> 
> ...



I've got the 50amp Sterling B2B, and I also use the Sterling 50amp ProChargeUltra. Battery lugs I got from a little shop in Glossop for about 20p each, and a butane blowtorch for leading them in B and Q for £11.99. It really makes a difference having properly fitted lugs I do agree.


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## sparrks (Apr 13, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> I've got the 50amp Sterling B2B, and I also use the Sterling 50amp ProChargeUltra. Battery lugs I got from a little shop in Glossop for about 20p each, and a butane blowtorch for leading them in B and Q for £11.99. It really makes a difference having properly fitted lugs I do agree.



Sounds like a good setup. I hope these new batts last a lot longer than the previous ones.


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## Tony Lee (Apr 13, 2013)

Some good thoughts on batteries here, but all of the recommendations completely ignore the fact that fitting the best biggest most expensive deep cycle battery may not be the most cost-effective solution for everyone. 
Yes, if you are full-timing or nearly so, and spend a lot of time off-grid, then it makes sense to install a properly designed total solution that will meet your needs with a high degree of reliability. 
However, if you are a weekend warrior who rarely sits in one place for long and is on EHU every two or three nights and doesn't feel the need to use a hair dryer or brew coffee, then the most cost effective solution is quite likely to be a couple of the cheapest starter batteries you can find. Look after them a little bit if possible but don't worry too much and just buy another couple when they fail.


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## coolasluck (Apr 13, 2013)

From what i thought i knew,the best charging device (if you could )would be to add another alternator on your engine to charge your leisures.
Although no guru i like billy pants set up which is what also looks like the way i shall be going.
But my needs are such because we are going to be fulltiming,if not,then i would also just go for some cheap lead acid batteries instead that are ideal for purely holiday and weekend use.
As far as i was aware a b2b charger has a diode that charges the leisure batteries and the power goes one way and does not leak back to the starters where as a split charger has no diode,you pay for what you get i suppose.


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## sparrks (Apr 13, 2013)

Yeh, but did you read the size of BillyPants batts - 2 x "These batteries are 15 inches wide and 15 inches tall and 7 inches thick, and weigh 58 kilos each" you'll have to watch your payload.


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## coolasluck (Apr 13, 2013)

Thats ok sparks i took my coach to be weighed yesterday and it came in at 4.5 tons which leaves me 1.8 tons spare:banana: lol

I do need to check on the height though as i have built a double storage under the bench seat,1 for storage and underneath that is utilities when they are done


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## sparrks (Apr 13, 2013)

coolasluck said:


> Thats ok sparks i took my coach to be weighed yesterday and it came in at 4.5 tons which leaves me 1.8 tons spare:banana: lol
> 
> I do need to check on the height though as i have built a double storage under the bench seat,1 for storage and underneath that is utilities when they are done



Maybe get a "Submarine Battery bank" then


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## BillyPants (Apr 14, 2013)

Tony Lee said:


> Some good thoughts on batteries here, but all of the recommendations completely ignore the fact that fitting the best biggest most expensive deep cycle battery may not be the most cost-effective solution for everyone.
> Yes, if you are full-timing or nearly so, and spend a lot of time off-grid, then it makes sense to install a properly designed total solution that will meet your needs with a high degree of reliability.
> However, if you are a weekend warrior who rarely sits in one place for long and is on EHU every two or three nights and doesn't feel the need to use a hair dryer or brew coffee, then the most cost effective solution is quite likely to be a couple of the cheapest starter batteries you can find. Look after them a little bit if possible but don't worry too much and just buy another couple when they fail.



I think it goes without saying that we all have systems to suit ourselves, however, would your weekend warrior not be better off with 1 x 120ahrs rather than having the hassle of buying 2 batteries not meant for the job and having to parallel them? It would probably work out cheaper too.



coolasluck said:


> From what i thought i knew,the best charging device (if you could )would be to add another alternator on your engine to charge your leisures.
> Although no guru i like billy pants set up which is what also looks like the way i shall be going.
> But my needs are such because we are going to be fulltiming,if not,then i would also just go for some cheap lead acid batteries instead that are ideal for purely holiday and weekend use.
> As far as i was aware a b2b charger has a diode that charges the leisure batteries and the power goes one way and does not leak back to the starters where as a split charger has no diode,you pay for what you get i suppose.



I think connecting an alternator doesn't give the proper charge curve does it? How would that fit with MOT and would it cost a lot more diesel to have a secondary one fitted? Besides that means you must run your engine, which is expensive and detrimental to the engine. Surely a cheap gennie like the SDMO Booster is better?
Also, Trojan do a big range of batteries, Trojan Deep Cycle Batteries so there's bound to be one to suit. 

I also borrowed a Smart Gauge off someone to try. The Smart Gauge simply connects across the batteries, and tells you when they are charged to 100% capacity, what capacity there are at at any time by pressing a button and what voltage is coming from the batteries by pressing a button. 
Supposedly they are programmed to take into account Peukerts law, so they accurately reflect the state of charge taking into account the age of the battery. 
In practice, it tells me that my bank is at 100% SOC when it is only at the 80% stage, and the meter fitted to the van already tells me the voltage. As I said though the best indicator of SOC (State of Charge) is an SG meter. So at £165 the Smart Gauge to me, is utterly useless. 
I wonder if anyone has come across a meter that is of any use? Perhaps a one that includes probes in the electrolyte?

Edit*  That link I gave you was just for reference. The J185H-AC that I bought were £245 each. In that link they're charging £422.03!!
I got mine from Tayna http://www.tayna.co.uk/Trojan-Batteries-12-Volt-S1190-1.html


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## BillyPants (Apr 14, 2013)

Mr 99g said:


> Hi Billy Pants,
> 
> The trouble is, on these forums you always start to fancy what others have got/praised. By the way out of curiosity what neck of the woods are you from ? I also use that little shop, from time to time ! ..... Regards chris :wave:



As someone said it's horses for courses. Only get what you want. I have quite high power needs so along with the B2B and the gennie with mains charger, I also want a couple of large solar panels now that they're cheap. If I watch a DVD on a night I can easily use 60amps per day, so everything that helps put some power back into the batteries is good.
I did look into wind power too but the best wind generator I could find, apparently gives something like 8amps per day even in wind! Definitely not worth the very large price.

I am from Durham originally, now I'm from the UK  

I heard a tale about how a few Manbat (spit!) employees left Manbat (spit!) as they were unhappy with something there, and set up Tayna. They do have commercial links but I don't know to what extent. Tayna are reasonably priced, nice lads work there and they get anything you want within a few days. I was just finishing my 3rd tour of Wales when I decided to go for the Trojans so I stayed at Llandulas til they were delivered.
Manbat (spit!) were useless form the very start. Don't even start me off.....


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## BillyPants (Apr 14, 2013)

Mr 99g said:


> UK eh, ....you on the run billy ?? :lol-053:
> 
> I've always used advanced battery supplies in stockport,  cheap if you call in person hint hint :. I think they only stock the usual suspects though. Can't say I've heard of Manbat, which is unusual, as after checking are only in Hyde I see . I used to use Symsey's  up that neck of the woods for my tyres..... Chris



hahha not on the run, I live in my camper, sold the flat, so UK is my location now 

Manbat are nationwide, I believe Numax batteries are their own brand. They partner with a company called Adverc up north who ripped me off. Just if anyone happens to come across them...


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## Firefox (Apr 14, 2013)

Those Stirling things are supposed to be very good but

(a) They are expensive (£300+ ?)
(b) You have to drive around to get the charge

With a decent size solar panel and regulator to be had for less than £100, it seems to me a no-brainer to fit a solar charge system whatever your usage pattern. You'll probably save that money in extended battery life because you are continually keeping your battery topped up under many circumstances. Batteries like being topped up as soon as possible. They don't like being left around in a state of partial charge even for a day until you are ready to drive off and use your Stirling kit. 

Three years ago with a large solar panel costing over £200-£300 plus a regulator on top, the answer may have been different. But now, the cost argument makes solar a must have item.


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## BillyPants (Apr 14, 2013)

Firefox said:


> Those Stirling things are supposed to be very good but
> 
> (a) They are expensive (£300+ ?)
> (b) You have to drive around to get the charge
> ...



Firstly, some of us do quite a bit of driving, so the fact that a sophisticated charger is at work whilst you're doing this driving is good. Mine has paid for itself many times over. (I've just hit the 100,000 mile marker) Again, it's horses for courses. If you drive to where you're going then park up for 2 weeks before driving back yes, they're a waste of time and money for you. 

In terms of solar I don't have any numbers to give you, but I do know that their charge return is way lower than you'd think. I have read that even a small beermat sized shadow on one section can drop the output by a full 30%. 
I have also heard that when only a few degrees off facing the sun squarely, the output drops off significantly. Obviously, if it's not the brightest of sunny days, you're not going to get full power from it either. This is all heresay, I don't know anyone who actually has one and has collected some figures.

What panel and regulator can you get for £100? Do you have a link? I am definitely in the market for some, as soon as I sell my Alden Netmaster satellite internet and TV system, which is taking up space on the roof. Any offers?

It would be really helpful if someone with has solar panels fitted came in and gave us some facts and figures?


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## Firefox (Apr 14, 2013)

I've got a 90w panel and true, much of the time it's only giving 30w (as per the readout on the regulator) but it's fit and forget. I'd rather have it than not. Over 10 hours in the summer that would give 300 wh. 50Ah at 12v is 600wh, so 2x90w panels would give you the 600wh most days and it's charging as you use the power so much better for your batteries.

As for panel and regulator for £100, pretty well anywhere you care to look. Amazon had a deal recently but you can pick up decent sized panels on ebay for £70-90 and a cheapo regulator is only £15. I would recommend get a better regulator though.

I have just bought one of these:


200W 20A 12V mppt solar charge controller LCD off grid | eBay









It's the one recommended by all the solar gurus. Works really well and the readout tells you what power you are getting. Also has a digital voltmeter and ammeter built in.


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## hextal (Apr 14, 2013)

Clunky as they may be I still prefer the idea of the cheap split charge system over the expensive Sterling type system. 

I like the idea that if a component breaks I can get a replacement easily (or to be quite honest just carry another pair of relays).

If the B2B goes capput on your my to Nordkap i'm probably going to struggle a bit to get it sorted.  With the split charger i'd just bung in a spare £15 relay and carry on.


I do totally get that it's not an entirely fair comparison as the B2B is probably kinder to the batteries and also charges quicker by artificially lowering the VB voltage in order to get a higher alternator output.

But, I generally go with reliable & easy to fix over technical and awkward.


Now, if you''ll excuse me my phonograph needs winding...


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## BillyPants (Apr 14, 2013)

hextal said:


> Clunky as they may be I still prefer the idea of the cheap split charge system over the expensive Sterling type system.
> 
> I like the idea that if a component breaks I can get a replacement easily (or to be quite honest just carry another pair of relays).
> 
> ...



I think I'd agree with you depending on circumstance. I've heard of split charge systems, I know some who swear by it. However for a heavy user like me, who has 3 ways of charging the batteries already, (plus solar when I get it) and a history of breaking batteries, I think I'd go for the technical and efficient. 

I hear Nordkap is nice this time of year


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## Firefox (Apr 14, 2013)

If you want cheap and reliable, why bother with a relay for split charge? Just use a manual switch, that's what I've got :lol-053:


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## iveco4x4 (Apr 14, 2013)

Tony Lee said:


> The vehicle we are in the process of buying in Patagonia - an Iveco Daily 4x4 has served the previous owners very well .


ny


Hi Tony 

Fancy meeting you here 

I think Phils definatly on the KISS principal (Keep it simple stupid) on his truck

I use a relay switchover on my truck but do have panels cos the truck came with them

Rich


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## Mastodon (Apr 14, 2013)

To add more worms to the already open can... Our current setup (see what I did there?) is 2 80w solar panels via Marlec regulator to 2 100ah batteries. Our van is a Knaus sunTi which we use in all seasons, we use electric for the water pump ( including shower) led lights, fans for gas heating and ventilation plus charging laptops phones and kindles. We also have a Rutland wind generator. Batteries are original from 2007 and we've spent around 330 nights in the van. Solar panels are on tilting mounts ( not swivelling) and the generator goes up on a 2m mast in about 15 mins (though it will mount on the van ladder in 5. It's noisy that way though).  The wind generator only goes up in the winter if we need to supplement the solar (it does of course work at night), but this allows us to stay off grid in Scotland in the winter. We've never had to resort to engine running or EHU. One of the panels was free and the wind gen was a lucky bargain on eBay. Not much annoys us more than a Concorde (other F off monstrosities are available) parking 6 feet away in an empty location and running a genny all night so they can watch trash TV...


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## JED THE SPREAD (Apr 14, 2013)

The last few months have been a good example in why a Sterling charger is a good option. Say for example you had solar panels and you run out of 12v, what are you going to do? drive down the shops and your good for 24 hours with a Sterling charger. 

Its a fair point in thinking what if a Sterling charger lets you down but they are not renowned for failing, no more than lets say a solar panel, generator or a tin of beans. They are quite expensive to buy but they can be quite reasonably priced if you know where to look.

I love them for how we camp.

Jed


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## BillyPants (Apr 15, 2013)

Mastodon said:


> To add more worms to the already open can... Our current setup (see what I did there?) is 2 80w solar panels via Marlec regulator to 2 100ah batteries. Our van is a Knaus sunTi which we use in all seasons, we use electric for the water pump ( including shower) led lights, fans for gas heating and ventilation plus charging laptops phones and kindles. We also have a Rutland wind generator. Batteries are original from 2007 and we've spent around 330 nights in the van. Solar panels are on tilting mounts ( not swivelling) and the generator goes up on a 2m mast in about 15 mins (though it will mount on the van ladder in 5. It's noisy that way though).  The wind generator only goes up in the winter if we need to supplement the solar (it does of course work at night), but this allows us to stay off grid in Scotland in the winter. We've never had to resort to engine running or EHU. One of the panels was free and the wind gen was a lucky bargain on eBay. Not much annoys us more than a Concorde (other F off monstrosities are available) parking 6 feet away in an empty location and running a genny all night so they can watch trash TV...



I looked at a Rutland, the 918i I think it was. When I spoke to a supplier on the phone they told me if it was constant wind I'd get 8 amps per 24 hour period out of it. Is that about what you get? 

Water pump draws 4 amps in operation, to fill the kettle takes about 10 secs, so 10 times a day = 1 min 40 secs therefore .1 of an amp used. LED lights .5 amp for a few hours? Therefore 2 amp. Fans for gas heating 2 amps in total for 3 hours, therefore 6 amps. Charging laptops, phones etc, maybe 1.5 amp for 5 hours therefore 7.5 amps. Total, a little over 15 amps used. 
I don't know what your wind genny gives out but 2 x 80 watt panels will give out about 10 amps in one hour at max output, so if the sun is out your panels will put back what you've used in a couple of hours. In fact on a bright sunny day the batteries are just being used as a buffer and the panels are keeping them topped up. Your van will be charging the batteries as you drive too so the drive home will ensure batteries are topped up to the max. 330 nights in 7 years is about 2 weekends per month, and assuming your batteries are kept on EH whilst at home, or at least topped up regularly, my guess is they will last you another 6 years easily. If they're open wet leads have you checked the electrolyte levels lately?

Thinking about it, if you use an inverter and charger to run your laptop, together they'll draw perhaps 5 amps, for say, 4 hours a day that's 20 amps, added to your other usage that's about 35 amps, which means 100 ahrs (you only count 1 of your batteries) would last you almost 3 days, which is less than the typical time you go away, without the Rutland or the solar panels. With them, it would depend entirely on the weather but you see where I'm coming from. Seems like your setup is spot on for what you do.


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## BillyPants (Apr 15, 2013)

JED THE SPREAD said:


> The last few months have been a good example in why a Sterling charger is a good option. Say for example you had solar panels and you run out of 12v, what are you going to do? drive down the shops and your good for 24 hours with a Sterling charger.
> 
> Its a fair point in thinking what if a Sterling charger lets you down but they are not renowned for failing, no more than lets say a solar panel, generator or a tin of beans. They are quite expensive to buy but they can be quite reasonably priced if you know where to look.
> 
> ...



Not quite.

The largest Sterling B2B I know of is 50 amps. If your drive down the shops takes say, 30 minutes, you've had half that 50 amps so say 25 amps. If that lasts you 24 hours that means you're using an amp an hour which you could easily do with a light on and a heating fan going. If that's all you do then great. But your battery isn't getting charged properly.


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## JED THE SPREAD (Apr 15, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Not quite.
> 
> The largest Sterling B2B I know of is 50 amps. If your drive down the shops takes say, 30 minutes, you've had half that 50 amps so say 25 amps. If that lasts you 24 hours that means you're using an amp an hour which you could easily do with a light on and a heating fan going. If that's all you do then great. But your battery isn't getting charged properly.




I have an alternator to battery charger that is well over 50 amps and as we usually camp further away than half an hour to the shops. We spend time outside exploring lots of the time and dont have a telly or satellite system so it works for us. 

Jed


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## Firefox (Apr 15, 2013)

I can see it works, but I still reckon a panel will still benefit most people, even you, because at many times you replace the charge as you use it, or sooner afterwards, which is better for the battery, leading to longer battery life.

Even if you strike camp at 10 or 11 in the morning you will still have had the benefit of a few hours of sunshine to start your charging off before your B2B. Your battery will love you for it, it's free energy and your alternator won't need to work as hard to complete the charge, so you'll save a bit on fuel consumption too. If you are off at the crack of dawn every time, then I'll have to admit it won't make much difference!

I guess you could work out that increased battery life and fuel savings would not compensate the £100 outlay on a system, but I bet it would be close given a few years use. It also allows you the flexibility to stay longer in one place, and keeps the battery topped up between trips. Still win/win for having some small solar capability for me


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## Pilotewanderers (Apr 15, 2013)

We have run gennys of various types over the last ten years and I can assure the community we have never parked with in 6 feet of ANY habitation let alone another MH. Parking up to another MH is in our view the worst of bad manners and we have in the past packed up and moved on due to such. 

We never run our machine if we are closer than a mile to another inhabited dwelling. We prefer very isolated spots. 

Oddly we have never had an issue. 

Nothing wrong with generators, the operators though, now that is another matter and working with the public as we do.... well...........nothing now would surprise us at all. 

PW


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## Mastodon (Apr 15, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Mastodon said:
> 
> 
> > To add more worms to the already open can... Our current setup (see what I did there?) is 2 80w solar panels via Marlec regulator to 2 100ah batteries. Our van is a Knaus sunTi which we use in all seasons, we use electric for the water pump ( including shower) led lights, fans for gas heating and ventilation plus charging laptops phones and kindles. We also have a Rutland wind generator. Batteries are original from 2007 and we've spent around 330 nights in the van. Solar panels are on tilting mounts ( not swivelling) and the generator goes up on a 2m mast in about 15 mins (though it will mount on the van ladder in 5. It's noisy that way though).  The wind generator only goes up in the winter if we need to supplement the solar (it does of course work at night), but this allows us to stay off grid in Scotland in the winter. We've never had to resort to engine running or EHU. One of the panels was free and the wind gen was a lucky bargain on eBay. Not much annoys us more than a Concorde (other F off monstrosities are available) parking 6 feet away in an empty location and running a genny all night so they can watch trash TV...
> ...


Ours is the 504 (has the ring round the blades). Does 5w in a 9kt breeze which isn't a lot but it adds up overnight. Tipping the panels up towards the sun makes a vast difference- 10a is easy on a clear day. We vary between overnight stays and weeks in one location so we sometimes get an alternator top up and sometimes ry on the free stuff. Our regulator has solar and wind inputs and just gets on with it, if the wind gets up it feeds back energy to keep the generator in check so we don't need to do anything. Yep, it suits us fine though we have had several years to optimise it.


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## Mastodon (Apr 15, 2013)

And another thing... We don't use an inverter to change 12v into 240v to then step back down to 12v... There are plenty of 12v adapters around to do that, as well as USB adapters that plug into 12v sockets.


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## jimbohorlicks (Apr 15, 2013)

Hi Mastodon
you said
"Tipping the panels up towards the sun makes a vast difference- 10a is easy on a clear day". 

can you advise what you have that enables you to do this please -a photo would be really good if you    have one.

TIA

Jimbo


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## Mastodon (Apr 15, 2013)

Jimbo: pm me and I'll mail some pics.


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## maxi77 (Apr 16, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> Not quite.
> 
> The largest Sterling B2B I know of is 50 amps. If your drive down the shops takes say, 30 minutes, you've had half that 50 amps so say 25 amps. If that lasts you 24 hours that means you're using an amp an hour which you could easily do with a light on and a heating fan going. If that's all you do then great. But your battery isn't getting charged properly.



Regrettably it is often not like that, Automotive alternator regulators are very crude and you will find the charging rate fall of from maximum in minutes after starting Mr Sterling does a good alternator controller that makes the alternator much more like a proper multi stage charger but this requires tampering inside the alternator and may upset many modern electronic vehicles (works great on boats though). Live aboard yachties these days tend to have some 400 AH of battery and at least 250 watts of solar and a high output wind generator as well as a 100 amp alternator with an external regulator to maximise the charging rate


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## BillyPants (Apr 16, 2013)

maxi77 said:


> Regrettably it is often not like that, Automotive alternator regulators are very crude and you will find the charging rate fall of from maximum in minutes after starting Mr Sterling does a good alternator controller that makes the alternator much more like a proper multi stage charger but this requires tampering inside the alternator and may upset many modern electronic vehicles (works great on boats though). Live aboard yachties these days tend to have some 400 AH of battery and at least 250 watts of solar and a high output wind generator as well as a 100 amp alternator with an external regulator to maximise the charging rate



The model I have is connected directly to the battery, not the alternator. It works in the same way though, constantly pulling down the voltage to force the alternator to work at max when needed. Once it gets it at max output, it checks the engine battery is in good condition, then takes what it needs to charge the bank with. (Mines a 90amp alternator) I've had mine 6 years now and no hint of a problem. Hmmm..wish I hadn't said that


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## TerryL (Apr 16, 2013)

We use a Sterling 50amp B2B charger supplying 2x110ah batteries and (since sorting out a duff connection) have never run out of leccy, even in winter with the blown-air heating. We tend to only stay a couple of days in one place although on our recent 2-month trip to Spain we used sites with hookup for the (much) longer stops. Would like a solar panel, if only to keep the batteries charged up whilst in storage, but like other contributors we have limited room and the only one that will fit is unreasonably expensive.

A friend has a gennie but admits to never using it, although he has enough payload. Personally I don't like them.

In the end it's probably down to individual usage and we're all different in this respect. The B2B charger works well for us.

Terry


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## coolasluck (Apr 16, 2013)

Edit*  That link I gave you was just for reference. The J185H-AC that I bought were £245 each. In that link they're charging £422.03!!
I got mine from Tayna Trojan Batteries - 12 Volt - Trojan Batteries[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that link Mr pants:wave:


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## maxi77 (Apr 17, 2013)

BillyPants said:


> The model I have is connected directly to the battery, not the alternator. It works in the same way though, constantly pulling down the voltage to force the alternator to work at max when needed. Once it gets it at max output, it checks the engine battery is in good condition, then takes what it needs to charge the bank with. (Mines a 90amp alternator) I've had mine 6 years now and no hint of a problem. Hmmm..wish I hadn't said that



From memory the B2B charger is like an MPPT controller on a solar system converts the input voltage to the optimum voltage for charging the receiving battery. It will tend to depress the voltage seen by the alternator but it will not replicate a smart alternator controller which senses the battery voltage and then controls the field current in the alternator to an optimal charging routine. Yes the B2B will do better than a simple relay system but it will not perform as well as a battery sensed alternator controller


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## maingate (Apr 17, 2013)

Just to clarify something about wind turbines.  You get no output in no wind and a decent amount when it is windy (bet you never knew that). 

The Rutland 504 is rated at 80 watts output but having had one for a few years, I reckon it is nearer 50 watts in practise. Its bigger brother is rated around 150 watts so in actual use it is probably nearer 120 watts. These 2 are quite expensive and there are plenty of 300 and 400 watt wind turbines on ebay for around £170 - £180. I have been thinking of getting one myself. Any wind turbine needs to be as high as possible and I have a sectional 5 metre mast. i regard that as the minimum required otherwise it will not generate much at all.

I carry the 504 because I have lots of storage space and it has been used in Winter or any time there has been a gale. It will not be suitable for some people but as we often are static for long periods on C&CC Temporary Sites it is fine. We also have a freestanding 90 watt panel and have managed OK for well over 2 years with just that. Now I have bought a 100 watt panel as well.

Because my leisure batteries never get flattened, they are holding up well and are nearly 4 years old. They are 2 x 110Ah Numax.


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## maxi77 (Apr 17, 2013)

maingate said:


> Just to clarify something about wind turbines.  You get no output in no wind and a decent amount when it is windy (bet you never knew that).
> 
> The Rutland 504 is rated at 80 watts output but having had one for a few years, I reckon it is nearer 50 watts in practise. Its bigger brother is rated around 150 watts so in actual use it is probably nearer 120 watts. These 2 are quite expensive and there are plenty of 300 and 400 watt wind turbines on ebay for around £170 - £180. I have been thinking of getting one myself. Any wind turbine needs to be as high as possible and I have a sectional 5 metre mast. i regard that as the minimum required otherwise it will not generate much at all.
> 
> ...




It is certainly true that in terms of pounds for watts solar panels way outstrip wind gennies, though in our climate there is often a good chance if the sun is hidden by clouds there will be wind. Rutland are good reliable but low output there are others with much higher output though they are best used when well away from others as they can be noisy. In general these days yachties are going for solar with a generator as back up either the main engine of a stand alone generator.


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## maingate (Apr 17, 2013)

Maybe it is because I own a wind turbine that I notice how often there is a stiff breeze (or better). This Winter, I could have wilded comfortably with a decent turbine as the wind was strong most days (and bitter when it came off the North sea).

They say that Global warming will bring more extreme weather. Therefore, the future is wind power and the yachties will not be able to put to sea. :raofl:


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## Mastodon (Apr 17, 2013)

@Jimbo
Here's a pic of how it's done. The panels have pivoting right angle mounting brackets in the corners. These attach to the rails with T nuts (unlock with 1/2 turn). The removeable struts attach to whichever corners are unlocked to hold the panel at the correct angle. The panels only tilt in 2 directions so appropriate parking is required for maximum effect. Takes about 10 mins to set up and holds up in gales.
NB only 1 strut (2 per panel) and 1 panel in this pic.


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## bestyman (Apr 17, 2013)

So, would this work? Much cheaper than a sterling B2B.

Buy a 50 amp battery charger, I have seen one on ebay for £60. The input is 1400 watts.
Buy a 1500 watt (3000 peak)inverter for £84, so that's a total cost of around £144, these were only a quick search so possibly less.

Wire the inverter to the engine battery and connect charger to leisure battery. Use this way when engine running.
Added bonus that when parked the charger can be plugged into EHU if only there for a few hours to charge quickly.
Added bonus that the inverter can also be used to power other  240v appliances.


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## Tony Lee (Apr 18, 2013)

Yes bestyman, I've seen rigs with that system where they are looking for maximum flexibility at minimum cost. You do have to make sure that the ratings of both units are compatible because battery chargers aren't always true to ratings plate especially at start up.
Disadvantage is that while it is OK for occasional use, it can be a bit of messing around if you are swapping from one mode to the other every day.

One thing regarding the difference between split charger and B2B systems that can cause problems is that a split charger doesn't tend to cause the alternator to run at beyond its ratings for long periods simply because voltage drops tend to mean the engine battery is the controller as far as the alternator dropping output back after a half an hour or so. However, the B2B units will, especially if it is a high current unit charging large batteries, cause the alternator to output more than rated maximum for very long periods and that can result in a pretty short life for those who mistakenly believe that bigger is always better.

Personally, I wouldn't ever try to maintain a full-time lifestyle without using all possible means to keep the batteries as full as possible - without going stupid of course - and that means a fair degree of reliance on nice quiet solar, plus some form of charging from the engine alternator, plus the ability to duck for cover and connect to shore power if absolutely essential (and to make sure the batteries do get a good solid controlled full charge every now and then) and if I were spending long periods parked up and not driving at all, a small generator or a willingness to go into minimum power use mode until the sun started to shine again.
Except in special circumstances, I would never bother with wind unless I was camping somewhere where the winds were blowing at 30 knots day after day and why would I ever want to stay in a place like that anyway.

As for the IVECO, Hmmmm! it doesn't tick too many of the redundancy boxes does it since it only has one source of supply at the moment (have to ask Phil if it even has a mains battery charger on board) and the split charge system is U/S and the house batteries are no longer plural and the sole survivor is in a coma, but give me a few days and a few pesos and I figure it will turn out to be survivable. At 4500 metres and below freezing on the Bolivian salt lakes, there will need to be enough power to run the diesel heater or we are going to end up rather cold.


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## orion (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm very impressed with the systems available from Traxide: Traxide

And have their USI-160 Ultra Smart Isolator winging it's way up to me in the UK to be fitted to my 4x4 dual battery system - auxilliary battery and accessories supply plus jumpstart for the cranking battery if required and high power (winch) modes available.

I don't think they've even got that one listed on their website yet but it's detailed on the Aulro forum: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/118973-usi-160-160-240-amp-ultra-smart-dual-battery-isolator.html


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## vlux (Apr 20, 2013)

Something that seems to be getting overlooked a little here is the difference between a Battery to Battery charger and the Alternator to Battery charger that Jed is talking about.

The unit i have is a 160A (capability) A to B Sterling charger. My alternator is 70A but peaks at around 85A under a heavy load. (Most alternators will peak much higher than their given rating.
My battery bank is 3x ex telecommunications batteries at 110ah each.
The whole system is wired with 35mm cable.

I've measured the Amperage output from the sterling with a discharged battery bank (12.0V) with a clamp meter and seen it delivering 85A at the beginning of the bulk charge cycle, this gets quite a bit of juice back in there fairly quick! But the main advantage of having the sterling unit whilst this is going on is that it IS controlling the alternator output meaning it is delivering that amperage at a full 14.4V. 
The A to B charger measures the voltage at the leisure battery terminal and controls the charging output from the unit to counteract any voltage drop across the cable length. (it also has heat sensors for batteries and alternator to make sure nothing is being overloaded)

I (like Jed) have very low power consumption, so this set up suits me really well. I did a test a while back and with full use of our lighting, eberspacher, stereo, and fridge during the summer i can go for a week without an engine start. Admittedly it will take a considerable time to recharge the bank to full capacity from this kind of discharge, but its very very rare for us to stay anywhere for this long in one go.

To supplement this system i've got a Ctek M300 25A mains charger hooked up so if i am near any electric i can plug in and fully charge the battery bank in a relatively short time period. Its a very nice piece of kit, very impressed with it!

My views on Solar panels having worked with them, batteries, and other renewable energy technologies is that (i personally) don't feel i would benefit from having it. Someone mentioned some hearsay figures about the percentage drop in output with a small shadow....I can confirm this.
I actually set up a test with an 85w panel in direct early afternoon sun. With direct sunlight the panel was producing 5A (almost the the full 6A that the controller was rated at). Then tested it with the shadow of my hand in front of the panel, the Amperage dropped to just over 1A.

This for me is reason enough to not have a solar set up on my vehicle, but the VW T3/T25 Transporter is not a large vehicle by any means. I have far better uses for a piece of roof real estate that large. Plus as Jed mentioned, i actually like to park in the shade...


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## mazolaman (Apr 21, 2013)

Interesting reading this folks, and it is good to learn stuff form folk who know more than me!

I converted our Transit (petrol/lpg) for our bug 8 month adventure. The first time I aproached a conversion, as a carpenter and an electrician.


I fitted a Varta 90ah leisure battery with a relay.

We started in the Scandi summer, where the battery would last for 10 days, and as we headed south, the battery lasted about seven days.
We were happy with this as after 7 to ten days, a shower is needed, and a clothes wash!
All the battery was running was led lights, toilet flush, heater fan (not used much)....not used much at all. The rest is off LPG.

I guess it is as mentioned above, it depends on your needs. But I would certainly like to fit a panel, and maybe a few other  energy solutions to make the time between charge ups longer...and a shower at the back!
Probably never a genny, as I have also been annoyed by these!


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## markin (Apr 23, 2013)

*Relay*

Like ellisboy, I fitted a smartcom relay split charge system to charge a 110ah leisure battery. 

We do a month round Europe every year, as well as weeks/weekends in this country, and have never run out of juice yet. We wildcamp all the time so never even bothered fitting a mains charger/ EHU.

When converting the van, I was going to go for the Sterling but then I read a post on the SBMCC forum about the Smartcom which is a fraction of the price. 
Glad I did it, and would do it again, but hopefully won't need to for a few years yet!!


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## Kontiki (Apr 23, 2013)

While down in Spain we were struggling to get by with a 130 watt panel & 2 x 95 amp batteries, with a bit of careful use we got by. Took it back to the dealers to get it checked out & he replaced the batteries for 2 x 110 amp batteries under warranty, he said one of the batteries had a bad cell (I'm guessing they were the original batteries so they were over 4 years old. Checking the solar panel output today it seems that the regulator reduces the charge rate when they are charged, with everything turned off the meter was showing 0.4 amps, the more I turned on the more the amps increased. I understand the Sunsaver controller reduces the amps when the leisure batteries are full, but I wonder if then stops any extra charge going into the engine battery? I'm sure I read that on the Rapido it is wired to charge the engine battery after the leisure battery is full but can't find out how it's all connected. Did consider another panel but wondering if I really need one.


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## maingate (Apr 23, 2013)

Kontiki said:


> While down in Spain we were struggling to get by with a 130 watt panel & 2 x 95 amp batteries, with a bit of careful use we got by. Took it back to the dealers to get it checked out & he replaced the batteries for 2 x 110 amp batteries under warranty, he said one of the batteries had a bad cell (I'm guessing they were the original batteries so they were over 4 years old. Checking the solar panel output today it seems that the regulator reduces the charge rate when they are charged, with everything turned off the meter was showing 0.4 amps, the more I turned on the more the amps increased. I understand the Sunsaver controller reduces the amps when the leisure batteries are full, but I wonder if then stops any extra charge going into the engine battery? I'm sure I read that on the Rapido it is wired to charge the engine battery after the leisure battery is full but can't find out how it's all connected. Did consider another panel but wondering if I really need one.



Some vans (like mine, a Burstner) charge both batteries on 240 volt hookup but only charge the leisure4s when using solar. I had to buy the Schaudt regulator to be able to charge all batteries from solar.


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## Kontiki (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm sure I read somewhere that the engine battery is also charged from the solar on Rapidos. I have seen the engine battery go from 12.2 volts to 12.6 volts, what I don't understand is if it is done through the CBE control panel when the leisure batteries are charged it then causes the Sunsaver regulator to reduce the power output from the panels. Before we had the batteries replaced I never noticed the solar output being decreased, this could be because they could never fully charge as one cell was defective.


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## maingate (Apr 24, 2013)

Kontiki said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere that the engine battery is also charged from the solar on Rapidos. I have seen the engine battery go from 12.2 volts to 12.6 volts, what I don't understand is if it is done through the CBE control panel when the leisure batteries are charged it then causes the Sunsaver regulator to reduce the power output from the panels. Before we had the batteries replaced I never noticed the solar output being decreased, this could be because they could never fully charge as one cell was defective.



The solar output on mine is shown on the control panel and the rate of charge certainly drops off as the batteries are topped up.


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 24, 2013)

The charge from the solar definitely goes down as the batteries come up.

We have a 2kw inverter running off 3 x 110Ah batteries. The inverter is very efficient only drawing 1amp on standby. We have a 40amp B2B and a Gasparini LPG automatic generator, this has now been superseded by the Telco TG480 - Automatic LPG Generator 12v 20A after Gasparini went bust and Telco bought up the rights in late 2012. We also have 240w of solar, charging both the leisure and vehicle batteries on a 90%, 10% split.

 After a winter in Spain wild parking, we have now put all the mains stuff into storage, as we intend to wild park more and not use caravan sites.

 We have obtained a double skillet, so no longer need the George Forman grill.

 We also obtained a GELERT FOLDING CAMPING TOASTER. We have ditched the mains toaster and now ordered two more from GELERT FOLDING CAMPING TOASTER GRILL WITH HANDLE NEW | eBay. They do burn out if the gas is too high

 We have a gas kettle so the mains one has gone. The mains only Skybox also went in favour of a 12v HD Free-Sat one.

 The skillet and Safari chef have made the Remoska redundant.

 A pressure cooker made the slow cooker redundant. 12v chargers for the phones have replaced the mains ones.

 I am trying to locate a 19v adaptor for the HP Pavilion g6 laptop. The one I have for the old HP pavilion laptop does not have the correct fitting for this new computer included.

 With this lot replaced, we hope we will not now need to replace the leisure batteries. They seemed to be struggling at times last winter.

 The only thing I need 240v for now is to charge my shaver and for Joan's hair dryer. The hairdryer doesn't get much use in Spain.

 John


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## maingate (Apr 24, 2013)

Hi John,

Regarding the adaptor you need for the laptop, if you go to a Maplin store you should get a loose one. You can then remove the old plug and fit the new correct one. I thought that I was going to have to do this and the guy at Maplin advised me to do this if I was stuck. They have a big range of fittings.


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## Neckender (Apr 24, 2013)

If you've got a double skillet you don't need a toaster as skillet does toast brillianly, especially toast and cheese.

John.


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## WildThingsKev (Apr 24, 2013)

Kontiki said:


> While down in Spain we were struggling to get by with a 130 watt panel & 2 x 95 amp batteries, with a bit of careful use we got by. Took it back to the dealers to get it checked out & he replaced the batteries for 2 x 110 amp batteries under warranty, he said one of the batteries had a bad cell (I'm guessing they were the original batteries so they were over 4 years old. Checking the solar panel output today it seems that the regulator reduces the charge rate when they are charged, with everything turned off the meter was showing 0.4 amps, the more I turned on the more the amps increased. I understand the Sunsaver controller reduces the amps when the leisure batteries are full, but I wonder if then stops any extra charge going into the engine battery? I'm sure I read that on the Rapido it is wired to charge the engine battery after the leisure battery is full but can't find out how it's all connected. Did consider another panel but wondering if I really need one.



The Rapido CBE panel will trickle charge the vehicle battery when on 240v but it uses a signal from the 240v to operate this relay.  So even if, like me, you connect the solar reg output to the same terminals as the mains charger the VB won't be charged without a bit of jiggery pokery and an extra relay.

If your regulator has a LOAD output you could connect that to the VB then anytime there is spare (ie LB full and still sunny) it will feed through.

Kev


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## Mastodon (Apr 24, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Saw the video and they look great, however some members have had their money taken but are not getting their skillets nor any info about delivery. Can't remember the thread but it was very recent.
> 
> A bit overpriced looking considering the materials but I'll keep looking in charity shops etc for a well priced one. Are they any use for making beer???



Don't go confusing price and value - yes they look expensive compared to the raw materials, bit like that painted rag on 4 sticks that that Da Vinci bloke knocked out... I've been using them for a dozen years now (small in van, large at home) and find they replace several items of cookware, this is especially valuable if you're limited on space or payload. Just bought a new one and found a blemish in the non stick coating - new one is in the post and 'don't bother returning the faulty one'.


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## Mastodon (Apr 24, 2013)

... but to get back on topic... I think I posted about methanol powered fuel cells? This weekend I saw the latest generation (see what I did there?)  - LPG powered... same benefits - a reasonable amount power available at any time, silent and clean running, but with cheaper fuel and allegedly longer life. Sit down for this bit - £6K...


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## JED THE SPREAD (May 9, 2013)

We just started to do a range of Sterling Chargers and set ups on CampervanCulture.com

http://campervanculture.com/product-category/electrical/charging-power-management/

Because all three of us have had them fitted to our camper vans for a few years now and we love them we thought we might as well start to stock them too. We kept the prices below the RRRP so should be competitive.

Jed


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