# The Ups & Downs in the Life of a Battery



## Ed on Toast (Mar 23, 2018)

Dull is not the word, of late but fortunately dull but not Baltic !

Now I have a three very nice gel batteries (Habitation) and the associated inverter, C-Tek chargers and solar, all of which I love to bits.

A nice 240 volt breakfast (egg and bacon on toast with two coffees and some washing up water) normally drops levels to maybe 75%

Generally, my motoring NASA BM-1 indicates a level of 105% , I know i can discharge to 20% without damage.

So, my question is simply this:

    I_s it more healthy to drop it to 70% and let it charge back up to 105% BEFORE hitting it again with the inverter/240 volts  *OR*  is it better to hit it before it recharges and so push it down to say, 30% before letting it fully recharge via the solar? _

So which option is the most healthy for my batteries in the long term *and why?*  (It is always better to know why and so we Luddites can evolve and grow)

Many thanks 

Ed


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## harrow (Mar 23, 2018)

I would speak to the gel battery manufacturer about the amount to discharge,

:wave:


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## barlicker (Mar 23, 2018)

It is never healthy for gel batteries to be discharged past 50% in my opinion. I have used Trojan lead acid and they have performed well even when discharged to below 50%.Trojan batteries have very thick lead plates so don't buckle easily and are the best leisure batteries you can buy.The gel battery was designed for German car manufacturers for engine start batteries as they are safer in a car accident. Gel batteries are expensive and not really designed as leisure batteries.Trojan are expensive but they are designed as leisure/deep cycle and will last for years even when abused.


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 23, 2018)

Mr Chainsaw, as much as I respect your depth of knowledge, your comment does not seem to be inline with Victron's own website information. 

Maybe I will await further comment by other members

but many thanks for your contribution, much appreciated

c:


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## trevskoda (Mar 23, 2018)

Big prob with gel nomater what folk tell you is if fast charged the gel gets dries of the plates and then they go down hill fast,so dont fit to big  charger and dont discharge to fast,other wise there fine.
I would still go for  bosch/varta silver for cost and service live as long as you dont cycle down to low,the trojan is best if you must go down to 50%.
If it were me i would rather fit 3 varta/bosh silver power frame which would give the same as two trojans.


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## Deleted user 48797 (Mar 23, 2018)

Ed on Toast said:


> Dull is not the word, of late but fortunately dull but not Baltic !
> 
> Now I have a three very nice gel batteries (Habitation) and the associated inverter, C-Tek chargers and solar, all of which I love to bits.
> 
> ...



Silly question alert......... Why do you need 240v for this?


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2018)

Just a few points here:

Please ignore people who are stating myths about Gel batteries, they have evolved a lot since they were first invented.

The batteries that ED has are deep cycle leisure Gel Carbon batteries made by Exide for motorhomes. They are not to be confused with any other type of gel battery. It would be like saying all cars do 180mph or all cars have 4 seats.

The batteries that ED has can be charged continuously at 25% of their Ah capacity. And bulk charged for shorter periods at a higher rate. He has three batteries connected together so they can be charged at with no issues by his CTEK system. The CTEK system fitted to ED's motorhomer has sensors fitted to the batteries to prevent them overheating and damaging the Gel, however, this is far less common in gel carbon batteries.

The batteries that ED has are made to withstand discharges down to 80%, they are true deep cycle batteries. They carry a 4-year warranty, so if they do not perform as they as supposed to he will be getting some new ones.

To answer your question ED,

There is no benefit in deeply discharging your batteries before recharging, you should keep them as full as you can.
Shallower discharges will most likely extend the life of your batteries beyond the 4-years. There are people still happily using these batteries at 10-years old.


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2018)

Bigusdickus said:


> Silly question alert......... Why do you need 240v for this?



There are not many 12v electric cookers.


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## Clunegapyears (Mar 23, 2018)

Thank you so much for the information. 

We are still trying to get our head around our batteries. We have the same batteries has Ed,but only two of them. Whilst we have been over wintering in Greece, the weather has been, for some days at a time, truly abysmal. We have not had enough daylight and at one point our batteries got down to 25% before we realised. I know that this is not good.  

We have been running the engine to recharge them whenever the battery monitor gets down to about 50%. Reading the above, does this mean we should be running the engine at 80%?   We would be running it then, most evenings?!?!

We have already made the decision, when we get back to the UK, to look at alternate power to support the leisure batteries when the solar is not sufficient… Probably a small Honda generator.


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## wildebus (Mar 23, 2018)

Curious .... 105%?

Sounds like the BM1 needs recalibrating so full = 100%.  Could be pretty important it you are planning to not worry about the batteries until they go to 20% (or 25% based on Admins comment) as the 20% (25%) might really be under the safe minimum?


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Curious .... 105%?
> 
> Sounds like the BM1 needs recalibrating so full = 100%.  Could be pretty important it you are planning to not worry about the batteries until they go to 20% (or 25% based on Admins comment) as the 20% (25%) might really be under the safe minimum?




105% is because the charge voltage takes the batteries over the 12.7v full level.


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2018)

Clunegapyears said:


> Thank you so much for the information.
> 
> We are still trying to get our head around our batteries. We have the same batteries has Ed,but only two of them. Whilst we have been over wintering in Greece, the weather has been, for some days at a time, truly abysmal. We have not had enough daylight and at one point our batteries got down to 25% before we realised. I know that this is not good.
> 
> ...



Your current dual charge relay most likely charges at 20A, so running the engine will only charge at about 20A.

You can install a larger dual charge relay and cabling and increase the max charge to about 50A, this will decrease the recharge time whilst the engine is running or you are driving.

Your mains charger will most likely be 20-25A, so even with the generator, you won't gain much extra charge current.

Installing more solar panels will help the recharge time in the summer.

You could invest in a eFoy fuel cell.


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## wildebus (Mar 23, 2018)

Admin said:


> 105% is because the charge voltage takes the batteries over the 12.7v full level.


But that is true of all chargers though

the Victron BMV doesn't state anything over 100% when it is on charge, which to me sounds more correct


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## Clunegapyears (Mar 23, 2018)

Admin said:


> Your current dual charge relay most likely charges at 20A, so running the engine will only charge at about 20A.
> 
> You can install a larger dual charge relay and cabling and increase the max charge to about 50A, this will decrease the recharge time whilst the engine is running or you are driving.
> 
> ...




Sorry to be such a numpty. My problem is that I ask a question and don’t always understand the answer.  I may test your patience- and sorry Ed for abusing your thread. 

How do I check what mains charger I have? The controller is an EP solar duo battery controller and it doesn’t state whether it’s 20/25 or 50.  

I understood that gel batteries were slow to charge and slow to discharge. If we double up the controller to 50 does that affect the battery life? 

What is the lowest I should let the batteries get before recharging i.e. running the engine. 

Like the look of Efoy (silent running, not too heavy, Eu wide distribution of cells etc), but we would have to pay for fitting as not practical. Makes it even more expensive. But if we did go the efoy route ... 
Presumably it only generates energy when the batteries fall beow a certain percentage? In other words it tops up silently without any input from us.  
We try to avoid poor weather by heading for S Europe during the winter.  The efoy would only be needed for odd days where either we don’t drive far and/or rubbish weather. Do the fuel cells last a longtime - shelf life once started.? 
Does anyone know of a fitter in the south?  Will see what state our finances come Sept when we get back to the UK. 

Again sorry to ask what are basic questions and stuff I feel we ought to know.


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## Admin (Mar 23, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> I have looked at exides own technical specifications and they only say 600 cycles with the curve dropping off rapidly if you deep discharge them so how are they actually so different, a true deep discharge battery would have between 1000 to 1500 cycles.



600 - 700 FULL cycles down to 80% DOD then after that the battery will only have 80% of its original capacity, it won't just die. These batteries are £152.99 each (with our discount). Trojan t105 work out slightly cheaper per Ah but have similar cycles at 80% DOD.

Trojans have to be maintained and topped up, Exides don't
Trojans have to be vented, Exides don't.

For people who want fit and forget batteries, the Exide Gels are the best.


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 23, 2018)

I am a very 'Fit n Forget' sort of person :banana:


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## wildebus (Mar 23, 2018)

Admin said:


> 600 - 700 FULL cycles down to 80% DOD then after that the battery will only have 80% of its original capacity, it won't just die. These batteries are £152.99 each (with our discount). Trojan t105 work out slightly cheaper per Ah but have similar cycles at 80% DOD.
> 
> Trojans have to be maintained and topped up, Exides don't
> Trojans have to be vented, Exides don't.
> ...



I was going to go 4 x Tojans but too much hassle and not right for high current discharge...


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## trevskoda (Mar 23, 2018)

By the time you get all the above gel batterys and fancy chargers id say £500 would not be oncommon,i would rateher buy 3 power frame at £300 and replace when nackered & keep smart charger i have.
True gels have came on a bit but i replaced two 9ah gel alarm batterys in w/shop and just as they went out of warrenty they died,i now just use a wet l/acid hooked to a 12v tiny float charger.
As for fitting to campers well each to there own if dosh allows as i see there price seems to be falling over last few years,most folk though will be out money on new charger though.


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## trevskoda (Mar 23, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> It is like all things motorhome related some people will kill leisure batteries in a year as they don't understand how to use them , others will kill them in 2 years as they will really use them properly but constantly, just like refillable gas as I read earlier on another forum how a guy said they are great as he only had to put in 8 litres for a years use ?
> We use that in a day !



Yes of course charlie,im light on batterys as mainly gas and derv for heating so only lights bog flush/usb ph charging etc, and a small inverter to power 230v element in carver water heater for sink washing water,also gas to it.


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## Deleted user 48797 (Mar 24, 2018)

Admin said:


> There are not many 12v electric cookers.



Ah yes true, but you can achieve the same with a gas cooker and it's probably more energy efficient.


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 24, 2018)

Bigusdickus said:


> Ah yes true, but you can achieve the same with a gas cooker and it's probably more energy efficient.




This is very true but the system i have fitted, turns solar into 240 volts, through witchcraft and black magic boxes and so, at least from my perspective, totally free, after the cost of the system and occasional replacement parts. Which is really the whole point of me asking my learned fellow members for their advice and opinions.

As Chainsaw Charlie and myself have already seen, the same manufacturers website can bear contradictory information, so a open and respectful debate on here, might throw up some food for thought.

What we might think, on the surface is a hard science, is clearly not. If this was the case then there would simply not be some many variants.

With so many variables, there are then multiple variants and therefore what best fits one member, might not another.

It should never be about proving ourselves right, at the expense of others, as others might but sharing, discussing and developing a conscientious that benefits us all and from time to time we might break new ground.

I can't think of a single member of Wild Camping that I have met and chatted to or chatted on-line with that I have not been able to take something positive from. Okay, some maybe great solutions, while others problems for me to ponder on or discuss with others but everyone has been a benefit.

Maybe thoughts could also include what to do when Icarus is 105?


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## Admin (Mar 24, 2018)

Ed on Toast said:


> This is very true but the system i have fitted, turns solar into 240 volts, through witchcraft and black magic boxes and so, at least from my perspective, totally free, after the cost of the system and occasional replacement parts. Which is really the whole point of me asking my learned fellow members for their advice and opinions.
> 
> As Chainsaw Charlie and myself have already seen, the same manufacturers website can bear contradictory information, so a open and respectful debate on here, might throw up some food for thought.
> 
> ...



You will have to excuse me launching into this debate to defend Gel Carbon Batteries. The reason is that people do read these threads and do make decisions based on the information in them. The information about early gel batteries is correct, but it is not correct about modern gel carbon batteries. I have had now had to do this several times on this forum. 

So I apologise if I have offended anyone.

I have fitted banks of these batteries in several vans now and other wild camping members also have them. The feedback I get is that they are very happy with their batteries and that they are very pleased with the purchase.

When I first decided to recommend these batteries I contacted Exide and eventually spoke to a technical chap in Germany. He gave me all the correct charging voltages for the batteries and I ask him about the expected life at different discharges. I was told that the batteries are engineered for deep 80% cycles and that they would withstand this for 600-700 FULL cycles. He also said that batteries with lower DOD level would last a lot longer even 2000 cycles at 30% - 40% DOD. There are lots of posts on the canal boat forums where these batteries are wildly used reporting up to 15-year lifespans!

I think that in the future I am no longer going to offer technical advice on the forum and just stay as referee/caretaker. That way members will be able to debate the issues without wanting to upset Admin.


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## Deleted member 56601 (Mar 24, 2018)

Admin said:


> I think that in the future* I am no longer going to offer technical advice* on the forum and just stay as referee/caretaker. That way members will be able to debate the issues without wanting to upset Admin.



Don't you dare! 
You've helped loads of members, me included, with your knowledge and experience and you know better than most, that you will never get some of the old die-hards to change their ideas or accept new technology.


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## Deleted user 48797 (Mar 24, 2018)

Ed on Toast said:


> This is very true but the system i have fitted, turns solar into 240 volts, through witchcraft and black magic boxes and so, at least from my perspective, totally free, after the cost of the system and occasional replacement parts. Which is really the whole point of me asking my learned fellow members for their advice and opinions.
> 
> As Chainsaw Charlie and myself have already seen, the same manufacturers website can bear contradictory information, so a open and respectful debate on here, might throw up some food for thought.
> 
> ...



I applaud your move to embrace technology that provides for your needs. I am seriously considering the replacement of my 2 leisure batteries with a lithium type to save weight. However if your van needs a gas supply that you have to carry then to take 12v and turn it into 240v, with all the associated losses, then heat an element buried in a cast iron hotplate seems extravagant just to cook breakfast. If your van was gas free then I applaud you for getting something for nothing but otherwise I'm not convinced... but each to their own and I hope you enjoy your investment.
Regards.


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 24, 2018)

Admin said:


> You will have to excuse me launching into this debate to defend Gel Carbon Batteries. The reason is that people do read these threads and do make decisions based on the information in them. The information about early gel batteries is correct, but it is not correct about modern gel carbon batteries. I have had now had to do this several times on this forum.
> 
> So I apologise if I have offended anyone.
> 
> ...




I think you have launched into something that had no reference to you or your input. 

Try taking a breath and re-read what was actually posted and we can all continue to benefit from your obvious accurate depth of knowledge.

:dance:


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 24, 2018)

Bigusdickus,

I guess you are right, I do use solar for breakfast, while i carry gas for other uses.

I need electricity for other uses such at lighting, moving warm air about, charging various devices, such as this very laptop and cutting my air!  First sign of insanity, don't ya know.

Gas, on the other hand has aux roles, generating the heat for my the blown air heating system, producing large qualities of hot water (showers etc...) and feeding the gas BBQ, which I love and here gas cost reduces from up to £9.98 down to about 27p for 1/2 litre.

but my solar system is full  most of the day and so with no more capacity to store it, most solar is not actually captured.

So cooking breakfast (Kettle, Toaster and Microwave) with 240 volts seems to be fair logical use of existing resources.

I am currently moving over to rechargeable batteries, instead of disposable ones but other than carrying more storage batteries (not really viable) I am out of areas to improve, or am I ? 

Are there other areas that could direct this power to?

I currently carry up to 150 litres of fresh and 150 litres of grey (max capacity of each) maybe something in that area ?


Any thoughts?


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## Admin (Mar 24, 2018)

Using solar energy to cook breakfast instead of burning fossil fuels is a noble deed in my opinion.

My van has been installed with 525watts of solar panels to convert the free clean energy from the sun into electrical energy. I then have large efficient batteries to store the energy until I need to use it. 

Once my batteries are fully bulk charged, my electrical system diverts some of the power and switches my fridge over to 12v to burn less fossil fuel.

Hopefully, before the summer is over I hope to have set up my electrical system to heat my hot water automatically from the solar energy before switching to the fridge.

And finally, my electrical system is already enabled to grid feed (push electricity back down my hookup cable) any spare energy to provide green energy to the national grid.

I love this concept, it may only be a small eco-friendly gesture, but can you imagine if we all did it?


Right now, in March, in Scotland, my panels are producing 325 watts of free clean energy.


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## Nabsim (Mar 24, 2018)

I like these threads and this forum as the discussions will often show something different to what others may have. Just because someone is almost entirely gas and another electric it doesn't matter, they are just alternatives and has been said what is right for one may not be for another.

The mh I have bought looks like it is turning out to be set up to use little gas although I am still finding out how it all works. I don't yet have solar but I do intend getting it fitted later this year so discussions on different setups helps me with different areas to look at. I do tend to think like Trev in regard to the Bosch/Varta batteries and that is probably the way I will go as I need replacements but cost comes into it for me as well as performance. If anyone has links to independent testing of any of the stuff mentioned, (battery or solar) it would be useful when links are added in these discussions, at least it would for me haha

Anyway nobody should 'not post' for any reason if they have something to say, you guys have an awful lot of knowledge and it is good to be different so keep it coming


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 24, 2018)

Now we are talking,  so with a 20 year old campervan, would I be able to automatically push that, as yet unused solar created electricity into the 12 volt feed to my fridge, as and when it is spare capacity.

how will it control the on/off of the gas? 

I there some special techie additional equipment needed? 

Will it work for my older fridge ? 


So, So SO many questions. This is what threads are about. 

I was not thinking about heating the shower water from scratch but I have considered pumping it up to the roof for some degree of rewarming.



Yes, my engine is diesel but surly it is about reducing the environmental impact elsewhere where reasonably practicable, isn't it?


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## wildebus (Mar 24, 2018)

Bigusdickus said:


> I applaud your move to embrace technology that provides for your needs. I am seriously considering the replacement of my 2 leisure batteries with a lithium type to save weight. However if your van needs a gas supply that you have to carry then to take 12v and turn it into 240v, with all the associated losses, then heat an element buried in a cast iron hotplate seems extravagant just to cook breakfast. If your van was gas free then I applaud you for getting something for nothing but otherwise I'm not convinced... but each to their own and I hope you enjoy your investment.
> Regards.



Switching from old-fashioned cast iron hotplate to an induction hob would eliminate a lot of those losses you describe.
Plus ... the energy looses from heat used when burning on a naked flame is  am sure likely greater then the associated energy looses suffered converting 12V to 240V.  (plus switching from gas to induction helps cut down on increasing the interior van temperature when cooking, so reduces power use from a cooling fan)

Something to ponder there? :beer:


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## Deleted user 48797 (Mar 24, 2018)

As an aside.....Dr Karl (look him up) says that the sun projects energy on the surface of the earth at the rate of 1kw per square metre - the challenge to us all is to find a way of storing this for when it's needed so at least you're making a start.


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## sparrks (Mar 24, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> I love your thinking, but hate to point out you are driving around in a stinking wretched vile , putrid fossil fuel burning pile of petrochemical produced plastic ,not forgetting all the other resources used in it's production :lol-049:
> When I see you in a natural fibre tent with wooden poles growing your own food I will be impressed :lol-049:



We are all doing that but Admin is limiting his day to day pollution further still, Will it make a difference? no, but it won't hurt either.


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## Trotter (Mar 24, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Switching from old-fashioned cast iron hotplate to an induction hob would eliminate a lot of those losses you describe.



Not if you wear a pacemaker. You'd go giddy, fall over and be in no fit state to eat your tea, let alone have breakfast. I suppose it wouldn't go to waste if the Ambulance crew ate it. Just a thought!
Dadad


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## wildebus (Mar 24, 2018)

Dadad said:


> Not if you wear a pacemaker. You'd go giddy, fall over and be in no fit state to eat your tea, let alone have breakfast. I suppose it wouldn't go to waste if the Ambulance crew ate it. Just a thought!
> Dadad


Good Point. But how many people have to consider that? a small percentage I bet 

and anyhoes, I don't pasa de maker when I maker ma dinna, I prefera da chippies  (and anyone with a Pacemaker will not get any I guess  )


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## trevskoda (Mar 24, 2018)

Admin said:


> You will have to excuse me launching into this debate to defend Gel Carbon Batteries. The reason is that people do read these threads and do make decisions based on the information in them. The information about early gel batteries is correct, but it is not correct about modern gel carbon batteries. I have had now had to do this several times on this forum.
> 
> So I apologise if I have offended anyone.
> 
> ...



No we require your info on charging and batterys,i do know things change faster than my brain allows,keep up the good work.


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## Nabsim (Mar 24, 2018)

As induction hobs have been mentioned I have another two questions, (would usually google first but seems I dont know a lot of the right terms yet for mh stuff) 
1. can you get 12 volt induction or  would you need invertor/ehu?
2. can you get an induction oven?

Not really sure I want the answers though as I am still struggling to come to terms with a fridge can be a grand or more


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## trevskoda (Mar 24, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> As induction hobs have been mentioned I have another two questions, (would usually google first but seems I dont know a lot of the right terms yet for mh stuff)
> 1. can you get 12 volt induction or  would you need invertor/ehu?
> 2. can you get an induction oven?
> 
> Not really sure I want the answers though as I am still struggling to come to terms with a fridge can be a grand or more



inverter/ehu 230v only


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## wildebus (Mar 24, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> As induction hobs have been mentioned I have another two questions, (would usually google first but seems I dont know a lot of the right terms yet for mh stuff)
> 1. can you get 12 volt induction or  would you need invertor/ehu?
> 2. can you get an induction oven?
> 
> Not really sure I want the answers though as I am still struggling to come to terms with a fridge can be a grand or more



To follow on from Trevs reply, Inverter should be Pure Sine Wave.

And I am sure answer to point 2 is No, as they work on Magnetism  (which is why aluminium pans won't work on them)


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## trevskoda (Mar 24, 2018)

wildebus said:


> To follow on from Trevs reply, Inverter should be Pure Sine Wave.
> 
> And I am sure answer to point 2 is No, as they work on Magnetism  (which is why aluminium pans won't work on them)



Correct and also a full earth type full insulated transformer and not el cheapo.


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## barlicker (Mar 25, 2018)

Ed on Toast said:


> I think you have launched into something that had no reference to you or your input.
> 
> Try taking a breath and re-read what was actually posted and we can all continue to benefit from your obvious accurate depth of knowledge.
> 
> :dance:



The question was about gel batteries not carbon gel which is a different subject altogether, however battery design is moving on quite rapidly now and not before time. Within the next 3 to 4 years and without the oil industries intervention we will see a rapid rise in battery use and innovation.


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## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 25, 2018)

*I've just purchased a couple of these :*

I started a thread a few weeks back about choosing the best replacement batteries. (Which I will update when I have made more progress on the install).

I have now settled on a pair of these babies, which are waiting patiently in the awning room while I tear out many years of electrical sins and dismantle the locker to install them.

Victron Energy 12V 230Ah AGM Super Cycle Battery (M8) - BAT412123081 - Victron Energy Batteries  - Victron Energy

(I got them elsewhere for a better price, as the linked supplier was stubborn on pricing).

12v 230aH Victron Energy 12V 230Ah AGM Super Cycle Battery (M8) - BAT412123081

The technical description tells me that these are designed to be regularly drained :

"We recommend the Super Cycle battery for applications where an occasional discharge to 100% DoD, or frequent discharge to 60-80% DoD is expected." which sounds to me that these are ideal for a MH that likes to be off the grid for long spells.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-AGM-Super-Cycle-battery-EN.pdf

I really liked the look of the Northstar Blue range but I have insufficient space to install them, so I've gone for the Victron units.

james


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Mar 25, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Not necessarily a good plan unless you do a LOT of research first. A battery to battery charger is a far better idea.
> 
> Did you ever find the specs of the cables to find their resistance? It was an interesting bit of investigation that never seemed to get completed.
> 
> If you look at the enormous running costs of an eFoy, let alone the installation cost, it becomes rather less appealing as a power source.



Dont you just love these solar threads, in summer they tell you how good they are at keeping there batteries charged up and and in winter they moan because they are going flat, Like Hairy Dog I have a Sterling Battery to Battery charger too and I`ve never run out of power since fitting it 3 years ago, and thats not sitting reading a book with an led light, it runs 240v TV, Sky Box, Toaster, Hair Dryer, Microwave, and thats even in the middle of winter, no sun.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Mar 25, 2018)

Some good YouTube info on battery charging without the sun

YouTube


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## samleeds (Mar 25, 2018)

Ive got 4 x 110ah excide leisure batteries, a 7000w pure sine wave inverter and a 150w solar panel. I never need to worry if its warm or freezing, ive got enough power to last for at least a week in a snow blizzard so im happy. You cant have too much electric in any van. Its the one thing everyone is passionate about along with heating and sleeping. Everytime i get a new van, I sort the ele, then the sleeping then the rest is cosmetics.


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## ScoTTyBEEE (Mar 25, 2018)

samleeds said:


> Ive got 4 x 110ah excide leisure batteries, a 7000w pure sine wave inverter and a 150w solar panel. I never need to worry if its warm or freezing, ive got enough power to last for at least a week in a snow blizzard so im happy. You cant have too much electric in any van. Its the one thing everyone is passionate about along with heating and sleeping. Everytime i get a new van, I sort the ele, then the sleeping then the rest is cosmetics.



Batteries are purely a buffer inbetween energy gathering periods. More batteries only delay the need to recharge, so there is such a thing as too much electric, as it has a cost associated to it. They still need to be charged, and if you don't book into campsites then the problem will permanently remain.

There is a perfect balance in battery size for everyone out there.


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## trevskoda (Mar 25, 2018)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> A 150 watt panel with 440ah of batteries ?
> I bet that would work perfectly in the last week of July and the first week of August :lol-049:



To right im thinking about 5/6 panels at least.


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## sparrks (Mar 25, 2018)

samleeds said:


> Ive got 4 x 110ah excide leisure batteries, a 7000w pure sine wave inverter and a 150w solar panel. I never need to worry if its warm or freezing, ive got enough power to last for at least a week in a snow blizzard so im happy. You cant have too much electric in any van. Its the one thing everyone is passionate about along with heating and sleeping. Everytime i get a new van, I sort the ele, then the sleeping then the rest is cosmetics.



Having a large battery bank is good, having  a suitable means to charge it is a must.


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## wildebus (Mar 25, 2018)

I've noticed watching some US #vanlife channels that many vans have very large inverters, especially in relation to their battery bank size. 
Can't deny I would be a bit concerned about a setup that has a 7000kW inverter on a 400Ah battery bank - if you were to use that size inverter at full power, you'd have eaten 50% of the total capacity in around 15 minutes!


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## samleeds (Mar 25, 2018)

Dont you just love reading posts that spread doom and gloom, generally from people that know very little about the subject in hand. As a former auto electrician, I have no fear about electric or indeed how to use it. Batteries are little more than reservoir for power and it makes no difference how many you have, the draw and usage is the same. A 150w solar panel will drop between 1 to 7 amps into the batts on cloudy or bright days so if the clouds are bad for a week, my 440ah will still be going strong whle john and mary lunchbuckets eco 85ah is as flat as a pancake. How long it takw to charge them up is academic. I stay away for a week so I dont need sun so when i get back home, The hook up from the garage can be used, but if the weathers good, my batts recover from the solar and no vans usage quite well. The inverter is 7000w pure sine wave, because under load, the bigger the more efficient they are and i hardly think anyone would be so stupid to run a 7000w appliance because it would be asking for a melt down. I have a 1000w hair dryer for my wife for 5 mins max. we have a couple of 300w appliances which get used for an hour or so and the rest of the time, its left off. Having something you can use if you want and have no issues, is far better than not having something you need and dont have. 2 weeks ago i spent 6 days with snow on the panel most days and when i got home I was at 30% on the batteries, that meant i used a hell of a lot more electric than a 2 x 110ah bank would have allowed me so job done. In the summer I just let them charge and discharge as the loads permit but I do admit to using the electric kettle and microwave and toaster more often than i should. rant over.


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## sparrks (Mar 25, 2018)

samleeds said:


> Dont you just love reading posts that spread doom and gloom, generally from people that know very little about the subject in hand. As a former auto electrician, I have no fear about electric or indeed how to use it. Batteries are little more than reservoir for power and it makes no difference how many you have, the draw and usage is the same. A 150w solar panel will drop between 1 to 7 amps into the batts on cloudy or bright days so if the clouds are bad for a week, my 440ah will still be going strong whle john and mary lunchbuckets eco 85ah is as flat as a pancake. How long it takw to charge them up is academic. *I stay away for a week so I dont need sun so when i get back home*, The hook up from the garage can be used, but if the weathers good, my batts recover from the solar and no vans usage quite well. The inverter is 7000w pure sine wave, because under load, the bigger the more efficient they are and i hardly think anyone would be so stupid to run a 7000w appliance because it would be asking for a melt down. I have a 1000w hair dryer for my wife for 5 mins max. we have a couple of 300w appliances which get used for an hour or so and the rest of the time, its left off. Having something you can use if you want and have no issues, is far better than not having something you need and dont have. 2 weeks ago i spent 6 days with snow on the panel most days and *when i got home I was at 30% on the batteries*, that meant i used a hell of a lot more electric than a 2 x 110ah bank would have allowed me so job done. In the summer I just let them charge and discharge as the loads permit but I do admit to using the electric kettle and microwave and toaster more often than i should. rant over.



Ok , so you charge the batteries fully before leaving home and then rely on the large capacity to get you through the week. Installing an extra couple of panels would surely help in not having to run the batteries down to 30% (yes if they are covered in snow they wont make any difference) and as a bonus you might be able to get another week out of them  I only have two 85Ah batteries, no solar and rely on a B2B to charge them. I have a compressor fridge and still have no power issues after 3 weeks away. Todate I've never ran my batteries down to 30%


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## samleeds (Mar 25, 2018)

sparrks said:


> Ok , so you charge the batteries fully before leaving home and then rely on the large capacity to get you through the week. Installing an extra couple of panels would surely help in not having to run the batteries down to 30% (yes if they are covered in snow they wont make any difference) and as a bonus you might be able to get another week out of them  I only have two 85Ah batteries, no solar and rely on a B2B to charge them. I have a compressor fridge and still have no power issues after 3 weeks away. Todate I've never ran my batteries down to 30%



Wonderful news, Im so glad you are happy with your set up. My wife and i are disabled, we have medical equipment needing to be charged so im on around 70 to 80 amps per day. With your set up, we only need 2 days of no sun and we are looking at A&E. Ill stick with what i have and no need for more solar panels, 150w is good enough. However thanks for your input.


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## sparrks (Mar 25, 2018)

samleeds said:


> Wonderful news, Im so glad you are happy with your set up. My wife and i are disabled, we have medical equipment needing to be charged so im on around 70 to 80 amps per day. With your set up, we only need 2 days of no sun and we are looking at A&E. Ill stick with what i have and no need for more solar panels, 150w is good enough. However thanks for your input.



If your setup is so critical then surely extra panels would help along with your back-up genny. As I wrote earlier a large battery bank isn't the dogs gonads without a suitable means of charging. I notice you totally overlooked the point I was trying to make with generation and usage. Anyways, better things to do, I'm pleased that our setups work for us both.


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## wildebus (Mar 26, 2018)

samleeds said:


> Dont you just love reading posts that spread doom and gloom, generally from people that know very little about the subject in hand. As a former auto electrician, I have no fear about electric or indeed how to use it. Batteries are little more than reservoir for power and it makes no difference how many you have, the draw and usage is the same. A 150w solar panel will drop between 1 to 7 amps into the batts on cloudy or bright days so if the clouds are bad for a week, my 440ah will still be going strong whle john and mary lunchbuckets eco 85ah is as flat as a pancake. How long it takw to charge them up is academic. I stay away for a week so I dont need sun so when i get back home, The hook up from the garage can be used, but if the weathers good, my batts recover from the solar and no vans usage quite well. The inverter is 7000w pure sine wave, because under load, the bigger the more efficient they are and i hardly think anyone would be so stupid to run a 7000w appliance because it would be asking for a melt down. I have a 1000w hair dryer for my wife for 5 mins max. we have a couple of 300w appliances which get used for an hour or so and the rest of the time, its left off. Having something you can use if you want and have no issues, is far better than not having something you need and dont have. 2 weeks ago i spent 6 days with snow on the panel most days and when i got home I was at 30% on the batteries, that meant i used a hell of a lot more electric than a 2 x 110ah bank would have allowed me so job done. In the summer I just let them charge and discharge as the loads permit but I do admit to using the electric kettle and microwave and toaster more often than i should. rant over.



"Batteries are little more than reservoir for power and *it makes no difference how many you have, the draw and usage is the same".*
That is not really the case though is it when you are are talking about higher loads.
The greater the load as a percentage of your battery capacity the more you reduce the capacity you actually have. Not sure if the way I have worded that is very clear but as an Auto Electrician I am sure you know what I mean.

As an example for other readers, using your example of a 1000W hairdryer - that is drawing around 80A say while running.
If you had a 100Ah battery it would be using a lot more of the battery capacity then if you had 2 X 100Ah Batteries. If you had 4 X 100Ah batteries it would obviously be less of the total again. But this is the key point ... Having 1 X 100Ah battery you will use much more then twice the capacity then if you had 2 X 100Ah. And same as 4 X 100Ah ... That would use less then half the capacity of 2 X 100Ah batteries.  This is what the Cx (time in hours) ratings are about and why if you have a setup that uses regular bursts of high energy, a large battery bank is more efficient and might be worth having even if you don't need that total capacity.


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## samleeds (Mar 26, 2018)

wildebus said:


> "Batteries are little more than reservoir for power and *it makes no difference how many you have, the draw and usage is the same".*
> That is not really the case though is it when you are are talking about higher loads.
> The greater the load as a percentage of your battery capacity the more you reduce the capacity you actually have. Not sure if the way I have worded that is very clear but as an Auto Electrician I am sure you know what I mean.
> 
> ...



Your post me valid sence and i agree, however there are some people that think the set up they have is the best for all and become experts overnight. Simple truth is that if you need the capacity, you need the volume. My set up is there to aid and assist my usage and negate the need to use back up charging power to replenish the usage for the time we are away. If we were on the road for weeks at a time, i would add another solar panel, but we cant stay away for more than a week and my 440ah copes well, so thats for us, maybe wouldnt work for others, but it does for us. Thanks though.


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 26, 2018)

Deliberately running my onboard, LPG to zero to see how accurate the little dashboard LED indicator is but still able to enjoy breakfast, with a couple of fresh coffees and wash up, before I do.


Everyones needs are different, so everyones systems  may differ. However by chatting and sharing, we are able to see what might  be right for our useage.


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## wildebus (Mar 26, 2018)

For my purposes, I have a 440Ah battery bank for two reasons ... I don't have any plumbed in gas and all my cooking and water heating is electric (although I do carry a portable gas cooker for outside use and a little 907 cylinder). And electric cooking means short bursts of high power, so spreading the load across multiple batteries means much less strain then sucking up from a small bank.  The other problem you can get from drawing too  high a percentage is the voltage will drop much more and possibly below an amount the device can operate from.
And as I want to cook (or at least boil water for tea) multiple times a day, I have 400W or solar to help replenish the batteries after each use (and also contribute DURING use).

I don't want any plumbed in gas or applicances and saving I made by not fitting that will have made a significant financial contribution to my electric setup


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 27, 2018)

In addition to the great and varied opinions, responses and theories given so far, I experienced two of the many positives, yesterday.

The time being nearly upon me to bimble on down to Norfolk, ahead of the forthcoming meet at Whitwell & Reepham, I thought i might have a mooch about the beautiful county that is Norfolk.

Last year I made several trips around the awesome coast and so this visit, I thought I would explore a little inland.

Which brings me  to, not one but two great advantages of the solar or other systems, that mean we do not need to be reliant on Electric Hook Up (EHU)

A week (ish) before Easter and I am trying to book a nice, very popular city centre main campsite. I know it is very late in the day and everywhere seems to be fully booked long ago.

Well to many peoples surprise, maybe, I secured my pitch for the eight nights, prior to our meet at Whitwell & Reepham. Why? simply because 90%+ of those visitors on wheels need an Electric Hook Up (EHU) but with the systems, like many have described above, I have no need for such facilities.

I therefore have a last minute pitch on an otherwise fully booked campsite. If this was not enough, I also get my pitch at half price !

I regularly stay on Camping & Caravan Club campsites, as I do many other campsites and think it is great that they halve (ish) the normal pitch rate, if we don't need use of an EHU. 

Maybe it would be nice to see EHU free pitches at 50% discount supported and encouraged as a positive environmental initiative, on other clubs.


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## wildebus (Mar 27, 2018)

I haven't as yet stayed in any official campsites (although I have joined the C&CC).
I thought it was a case of you paid extra to have hookup on all sites?  
Is it actually the case that hookup is built into the cost typically and you get it whether you want it or not then?  
EXCEPT for the C&CC which does actually separate the EHU price from the Pitch price?


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 27, 2018)

It is a separate option on there phone app or website, you simply select a Non Electric pitch.

Generally, in my experience, this can be as cheap as £8 a night. Meaning Toilet Disposal, Added Security, Showers, Toilets etc... cheaper that a Pub Stop.

I travel alone in my campervan but love going for nice, long walks. I am happy to bimble for 12 hours and more miles, so it is nice to leave my campervan on a site and return to a nice hot shower, with enough water to not to need to worry about campervan conservation, if you know what i mean.

Just seems a nice option


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## wildebus (Mar 28, 2018)

Ed on Toast said:


> It is a separate option on there phone app or website, you simply select a Non Electric pitch.
> 
> Generally, in my experience, this can be as cheap as £8 a night. Meaning Toilet Disposal, Added Security, Showers, Toilets etc... cheaper that a Pub Stop.
> 
> ...


Sounds good 
I don't need hookup but I joined the C&CC to get access to toilet & showers. So while I'm NOT a walker, the scenario you describe works for me


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## jacquigem (Mar 28, 2018)

Admin said:


> Just a few points here:
> 
> Please ignore people who are stating myths about Gel batteries, they have evolved a lot since they were first invented.
> 
> ...




Silly thought but is the same true for laptop and tablet batteries . That is donot discharge them fully before recharging ?


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## Ed on Toast (Mar 31, 2018)

Well initial research indicates that using Solar to feed my Fridge (12 volt) is not an option. 

So what else can I do with this generated energy, over what I am already using it for?

All small electrical things that are battery operated are slowly migrating over to rechargeable batteries.

I have invested in a small 12 volt slow cooker but have yet to try it out. 

Any ingenious ideas?


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## malagaoth (Mar 31, 2018)

C&CC can be very cheap if you are a single traveller  - particularly if you qualify fror the ' wrinkly discount'  (25% low and mid seasons) 

as for what to do with all this power you generate from your solar panels, I have the same issue at home (M/h doesnt have panels) I can sell the juice to the grid for a pittance but its much better to use it  if you can do so sensibly.

This means if its sunny a wash load is done, dishwasher fired up (not at the same time) and the electric hot water heater goes on for a couple of hours (saving oil), in a M/h I suppose much the same goes, charge everything which needs charged - phones, laptops, portable radios etc.  Li batteries are much more forgiving about being recharged before being fully discharged than NiCADS were.

a 12V slow cooker sounds like a good idea as brief outages wouldnt matter too much - but you would have to be sure that your panels had the power to fuel it - panels often produce a lot less than the stated ampage


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