# Small Gas bottles



## WGWarburton (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi,
     First post, and probably a daft one.. Apologies in advance if this has been discussed before and I failed to find the right posts in the archive....


 I have a campervan- a Toyota Hiace conversion (Japanese import 4x4 long wheelbase, if anyone's interested!). It's a little bigger than a VW but still pretty compact. When I got it there was, oddly,  no cooker installed, so I have put one in. Space is tight, as it's quite a small van, so I am using Campingaz bottles.

 I don't have space for anything bigger- Unless I've missed something, the smallest Calor bottles are the 4.5/3.9Kg ones and they are a good deal bigger than the Campingaz 907. There doesn't seem to be anything except Campingaz between disposable 500g canisters of various types and the Calor range (except maybe a Coleman 1Kg propane bottle).

 My current setup has a single 907 as the main supply. It's obviously not the cheapest way to buy gas but we only use it for cooking, so it's not a big problem.

 However, my backup supply is a 901 cylinder, as I don't have space for a second 907... It's a very neat solution: compact, simple and the 901 also works nicely with a gas lamp that screws onto the small bottle on the rare occasions that we use one.

 I'm not quite so relaxed about the price of 901 refills... at £16.20 for an exchange bottle containing 450g of gas, that's £36/Kg... which seems a tad excessive(!) makes the 907 refill at under £10/Kg look almost inexpensive, which is pretty impressive given that Calor 4.5Kg is about £3.60/Kg, I think...!

 So, I'm thinking I have three (& 1/2) options here:

 1) Live with it and minimise the use of the 901 bottle- very attractive in the short term!
 2) Get an adapter to allow disposable 450g/500g canisters to feed the cooker instead- even at £7.50 each, the gas is £15/Kg, much cheaper than the 901
 3) Get some fittings and refill the 901 myself
3a) Somehow make space for a second 907

 Can anyone advise if option-2 has any "Gotcha"s that might not be obvious, please? I'm wondering if the gas flow from a disposable canister is limited, for example, so that the Lindar valve can't pass the 350g/h needed to run my cooker (or 420g/h, if I do upgrade to one with better burners!).

 Option-3 seems quite attractive- but a bit of a faff and the payback might take a while, given we don't use much gasfrom the primary, let alone the backup.

 3a seems like it ought to be the right way to go but I just can't see how at the moment... Even if I could find the space, I think using it for a spare bottle might not be the best option overall, as there are other things we could do with it!

 Have I missed something? Maybe there's a better way to do this? I notice that multipacks of small "aerosol can" butane catridges work out around £10/Kg. I could replace the double-burner stove with a couple of portable gas rings but would then lose the (pretty poor, TBH) grill...   Is there another source of gas in small bottles? Diesel?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Cheers,
          W.


----------



## n brown (Jul 24, 2014)

i would find room for a calor bottle,camping gaz is madly expensive. even if it means cutting a hole in the floor to take it,or putting a box on the back door


----------



## oldish hippy (Jul 24, 2014)

when ihad first van it had 907 gaz bottle made room for 6kg calor by moving around some of the cupboard shelving and making a deep cupboard to take a 6kg calor ok it cut down cupbard space but just meant took less clothes with me and less tinned stuff just meant ihad to wash some stuff by hand and shop a little

if you are planning on keeping the van for soiome time then fit a round refillable tank in the spare wheel carrier and bolt the wheel on the fron  more often


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 24, 2014)

We're short on space as well, so we're using Campingaz 907s but were planning on fitting an external refillable tank. However, we've just returned from a 3 week European trip during which we used slightly less than one Campingaz 907 bottle (we only use gas for the cooker; we have diesel fuelled heating and no oven). So, due to the ridiculous expense of fitting an external tank and our low gas consumption, we'll continue with Campingaz 907, which costs me £20 including the bottle.


----------



## Firefox (Jul 24, 2014)

Don't use camping gaz, preferably - very expensive! Get a calor bottle and refill it at the LPG autogas pumps using an adaptor. It only costs £9 to refill a 6kg bottle rather than get ripped off £20-25 for exchange. Fill a 6kg bottle (from empty) with 11-12 litres only. LPG (same thing as Calor) is better in cold weather too.


----------



## maxi77 (Jul 24, 2014)

Agree Origos are very good but last time I looked a bit pricey. The other concern for some is the smell of burning meths which some people cannot stand, though I have heard from devotees in the yachty fraternity that froggy cooking alcohol is smell free.


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 24, 2014)

Firefox said:


> Don't use camping gaz, preferably - very expensive! Get a calor bottle and refill it at the LPG autogas pumps using an adaptor. It only costs £9 to refill a 6kg bottle rather than get ripped off £20-25 for exchange. Fill a 6kg bottle (from empty) with 11-12 litres only. LPG (same thing as Calor) is better in cold weather too.



I pay £19.00 for a full Campingaz 907, which means I can sell the bottle when empty and recover at least £5, usually more. To fit an external tank, with all the fittings, costs £hundreds, so I can't imagine how many years it would take me to recover the cost.

The butane v calor in cold weather doesn't apply to me as the bottle is kept in the relative warmth of the vehicle interior, and if necessary I can use a Coleman propane cylinder (I bought 12 for £20) for which I have made an adaptor.


----------



## Tbear (Jul 24, 2014)

maxi77 said:


> Agree Origos are very good but last time I looked a bit pricey. The other concern for some is the smell of burning meths which some people cannot stand, though I have heard from devotees in the yachty fraternity that froggy cooking alcohol is smell free.



That's a very good price for that stove and neat spirit does not smell like cheap meths. Never used an Origo myself so cannot recommend them personally but if I needed a double burner I would definitely think about one at that price.

Richard


----------



## WGWarburton (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi,
      Thanks very much for the replies so far. Very impressed by how helpful people on here are being!

 I appreciate that Campingaz isn't a cheap system, but it is a compact one. I am prepared to live with the cost of the 907 refills to get the space-saving, as I don't have room for even one Calor Bottle, let alone a working+spare combination. Calor really isn't an option and while I can see the benefit of an external-refillable tank I don't think the cost and complexity is warranted by our usage!

 As Steve121 says- the 907 is big enough for light, cooking usage. Maybe I should be looking harder at my Option-3a and trying to find room for a second 907, as it's the eye-watering price of a 901 refill that I have an issue with!! It's a great pity, as it's a very handy size, light, stronger than a disposable can (and re-useable, obviously), with a connector that's properly designed for regular disconnection, unlike the EN417 screwfits, which seem, well, under-engineered...
 Steve- can you share your source for £20 907s?

 I like the Alcohol stove idea and would seriously consider it but for two factors- 1) I need the stove to fold up vertical to save space when not in use and 2) they don't seem to have a model that has a grill of any sort, and we'd be reluctant to give that up completely. I'm very grateful for the information, though, as I've only heard rumours of these previously, without knowing what to look for, and will very likely consider one seriously for marine use in future!!

 Thanks again for the replies so far... I do get the point about how much better value bigger bottles are. I just don't have room or really need the extra capacity. Hence the quest for more sensibly priced Small Bottles. If I can't make room for a second 907, maybe an EN417 regulator and 500g disposables is the way to go... They seem to be available for £7.50 or less, which is under half the cost of a 450g 901 refill and would pay for the regulator in only two uses...

 I'm disappointed that there doesn't seem to be an alternative "compact" solution. I guess most of the the market is for bulk (Calor in Motorhomes, gardens, caravans, boats) or very lightweight+compact backpacking; so, in effect, CampinGaz are already an expensive niche product!!!

Cheers,
          W.


----------



## maxi77 (Jul 24, 2014)

That price in Amazon is very low perhaps for once Dometic has lowered the price of products it has taken over. The smell is a personal thing, even when I had a sense of smell it didn't bother me but Mrs Maxi cannot stand it as it makes her feel sick. I have also heard of others making the same complaint so I think people should try before they commit


----------



## Caz (Jul 24, 2014)

Something I've often wondered about the alcohol stoves, never having had one and it's probably a stupid question - but do you have to empty the left over alcohol back into the bottle for travelling, or is it sealed in the stove somehow?


----------



## Caz (Jul 24, 2014)

Thanks, David.


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 24, 2014)

WGWarburton said:


> Steve- can you share your source for £20 907s?



Check your email.


----------



## No Fixed Abode (Jul 25, 2014)

Firefox said:


> Don't use camping gaz, preferably - very expensive! Get a calor bottle and refill it at the LPG autogas pumps using an adaptor. It only costs £9 to refill a 6kg bottle rather than get ripped off £20-25 for exchange. Fill a 6kg bottle (from empty) with 11-12 litres only. LPG (same thing as Calor) is better in cold weather too.



Would like to get hold of one of those adapters, where might I find one?


----------



## Sharon the Cat (Jul 25, 2014)

No Fixed Abode said:


> Would like to get hold of one of those adapters, where might I find one?



Me too please


----------



## campervanannie (Jul 25, 2014)

*camping gaz*

I might ruffle a few but I think we over think camping with all this what gas, what inverter, and what sleeping bag. I have 3 bottles of camping gas 907 one for the cooker one for the fridge and a spare


----------



## Tezza33 (Jul 25, 2014)

campervanannie said:


> I might ruffle a few but I think we over think camping with all this what gas, what inverter, and what sleeping bag. I have 3 bottles of camping gas 907 one for the cooker one for the fridge and a spare


You have gone from plucking feathers to ruffling them in less than a week, Camping Gas 907 is expensive but if that is all you have room for there is not much choice, I have the room to carry a spare of everything, (I even carry a spare LNB ), I would carry a spare Wife if Maggy would let me


----------



## Tezza33 (Jul 25, 2014)

We don't have a grill, we 'toast' bread using a good quality frying pan and it tastes better than toast


----------



## Sharon the Cat (Jul 25, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> We don't have a grill, we 'toast' bread using a good quality frying pan and it tastes better than toast



The frying pan toaster is a tip we picked up from WC. You are right it makes lovely toast. :tongue:


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 26, 2014)

I wonder how many of those who say Campingaz is too expensive have actually saved money by using a refillable tank. I suspect many users will have sold their vehicle before the break even point. 

Using 907 bottles costs me about 25 - 30 pence per day. The last time I researched refillable tanks it was going to cost around £360 for the parts, plus fitting possibly, plus safety check, plus the gas itself. Then there's the fact that the tanks have a limited lifespan. 

Obviously if you use a lot of gas you will recover the initial outlay quicker, but for modest users like myself Campingaz is far more convenient, and probably the cheapest option. It would take several months of continuous use for me to break even if I fitted a tank.

Another thing to consider is availability of refills. Campingaz is available throughout Europe, except Poland. Outside of Europe you can often find places which will refill empty bottles. If a refill is not available, a locally sourced bottle and regulator can be bought, and it is possible to use virtually any disposable butane or propane cartridge, with a suitable adaptor, in place of a Campingaz bottle.

Refilling external tanks might prove difficult outside of Europe; for example, the last time I checked there was just one place in Morocco which offers this service. Although not a major problem, you'll need various adaptors as different countries have different hose fittings.

Then there's the problem of continental LPG being a mixture of Propane and Butane (in the UK I've been assured it's Propane). If you fill up abroad then use the gas in the UK in cold weather, you could end up with just Butane in the tank, which will not evaporate.

I'll stick with Campingaz.


----------



## maxi77 (Jul 26, 2014)

Steve121 said:


> I wonder how many of those who say Campingaz is too expensive have actually saved money by using a refillable tank. I suspect many users will have sold their vehicle before the break even point.
> 
> Using 907 bottles costs me about 25 - 30 pence per day. The last time I researched refillable tanks it was going to cost around £360 for the parts, plus fitting possibly, plus safety check, plus the gas itself. Then there's the fact that the tanks have a limited lifespan.
> 
> ...




I have never heard of any one having any problems with continental LPG, even my German friends use it and they often have colder winters than us. As you say it depends on your usage but we are ahead after one year of ownership and when we changed vans this year the dealer changed over our bottles as part of the deal. My gas is about 30% of the price of calor so it may not take that long to cover the cost of camping gaz, but clearly that is your choice. I use one refillable and one calor which with adapters I can refill in some countries so about 90% of my gas is autogas which makes a big difference to my living costs. I wwould hate to be paying for camping gaz. Also with two dogs I will not be going to Morroco, the paper work is too much


----------



## Tow Itch (Jul 26, 2014)

Sharon the Cat said:


> The frying pan toaster is a tip we picked up from WC. You are right it makes lovely toast. :tongue:



Is the toast done on a dry frying pan or is it fried bred. A link to the original thread or an explanation would be appreciated.


----------



## Tezza33 (Jul 26, 2014)

Tow Itch said:


> Is the toast done on a dry frying pan or is it fried bred. A link to the original thread or an explanation would be appreciated.


A dry frying pan is the way to toast, but if you want a toasted sandwich we put ham and cheese in between two slices of bread then butter the outside and put in the frying pan, turn over when one side is done, it is better than a sandwhich toaster


----------



## bluejet (Jul 26, 2014)

*Gas bottle storage*

Whilst in Canada about 7 years ago we saw an old air cooled VW camper with a decent sized calor type bottle in a steel fabricated rack mounted high on the outside of the n/side rear corner. Looked very neat & practical,also pretty cool.
I suppose you can get away with that sort of look on an old vdub, not to everyone's taste.


----------



## lebesset (Jul 26, 2014)

maxi77 said:


> I have never heard of any one having any problems with continental LPG, even my German friends use it and they often have colder winters than us. As you say it depends on your usage but we are ahead after one year of ownership and when we changed vans this year the dealer changed over our bottles as part of the deal. My gas is about 30% of the price of calor so it may not take that long to cover the cost of camping gaz, but clearly that is your choice. I use one refillable and one calor which with adapters I can refill in some countries so about 90% of my gas is autogas which makes a big difference to my living costs. I wwould hate to be paying for camping gaz. Also with two dogs I will not be going to Morroco, the paper work is too much



lpg in europe is the same everywhere  , and has been for years ; you get industrial grade propane [ mostly propane but with some pollutants ] just the same as if you buy a bottle of propane ; my brother who lives in belgium where they used to mix with butane assures me that it is now like everywhere else

the reason that some people got some problems in cold weather is that they didn't empty the bottle but just top up ; this way the pollutants which are heavier [ which is why they are know as heavy ends in the trade ] with a higher gassing temperature accumulate in the bottom so that the percentage of the bottle which contains propane keeps decreasing 

for many years I ran lpg cars and soon learned to regularly run the tank completely out because the car ran very badly when I got to the bit at the bottom if I didn't

if you don't believe me just follow a lpg tanker and watch it fill a domestic propane tank and then the lpg tank on a forecourt...doesn't matter which country


----------



## Tezza33 (Jul 26, 2014)

My bulk tank has been on for 10yrs and I have never had a problem however cold it is but I do let it run out every so often, must put a gauge on


----------



## lebesset (Jul 26, 2014)

the thing is when you change your bottles you will run it out empty first ...so exactly the same thing pertains if you use refillables and run them empty 

the best grade of propane has to be 90% propane but more importantly not more than 5% polypropylene , which is probably what gums up regulators , and that should be sold as lpg so you don't get valves stuck up ; whether or not we get that I cannot say !

incidentally the other HC gases in propane are things like napthane, toluene, butane in small percentages

if I remember correctly there are 3 grades of propane traded worldwide for different uses


----------



## Donk (Jul 26, 2014)

i live near Dover in Kent and my nearest supplier charges £29 for an exchange 907 bottle.

I have now got hold of adaptors to refill (decant) my 907 bottles from a bigger calor gas bottle, so would like to know what connections i need to fill a calorgas bottle at a filling station using their LPG pump.  thereby saving even more.


----------



## maxi77 (Jul 26, 2014)

Donk said:


> i live near Dover in Kent and my nearest supplier charges £29 for an exchange 907 bottle.
> 
> I have now got hold of adaptors to refill (decant) my 907 bottles from a bigger calor gas bottle, so would like to know what connections i need to fill a calorgas bottle at a filling station using their LPG pump.  thereby saving even more.



Technically you are not allowed to at UK and many other countries filling stations, many companies will not even allow the refilling of proper refillable cylinders. You should only refill to 80% capacity to ensure liquid gas is not carried over into the regulator. At a filling station if you get away with refilling the gas is measured in liters so you need to know how many liters to put in


----------



## Tbear (Jul 26, 2014)

Donk said:


> i live near Dover in Kent and my nearest supplier charges £29 for an exchange 907 bottle.
> 
> I have now got hold of adaptors to refill (decant) my 907 bottles from a bigger calor gas bottle, so would like to know what connections i need to fill a calorgas bottle at a filling station using their LPG pump.  thereby saving even more.



Have a look at  LPG Autogas-ADAPTOR Bayonet ,- VALVE INSIDE for refill Camper- Gas Bottle in UK | eBay

Beware the P&P

Richard


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 26, 2014)

Donk said:


> i live near Dover in Kent and my nearest supplier charges £29 for an exchange 907 bottle.
> 
> I have now got hold of adaptors to refill (decant) my 907 bottles from a bigger calor gas bottle, so would like to know what connections i need to fill a calorgas bottle at a filling station using their LPG pump.  thereby saving even more.



I get charged £19 for a full 907, not an exchange/refill.


----------



## Donk (Jul 26, 2014)

where is that... thats an insanely cheep price


----------



## maxi77 (Jul 26, 2014)

Tbear said:


> Have a look at  LPG Autogas-ADAPTOR Bayonet ,- VALVE INSIDE for refill Camper- Gas Bottle in UK | eBay
> 
> Beware the P&P
> 
> Richard



That will only fit UK propane notcamping gaz which the OP is looking for


----------



## Tezza33 (Jul 26, 2014)

maxi77 said:


> That will only fit UK propane notcamping gaz which the OP is looking for


You are right but other members asked for a link for one of these on this thread


----------



## Tbear (Jul 26, 2014)

maxi77 said:


> That will only fit UK propane notcamping gaz which the OP is looking for



I was answering the question

*i need to fill a calorgas bottle at a filling station using their LPG pump. thereby saving even more*.

Richard


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 27, 2014)

Donk said:


> where is that... thats an insanely cheep price



Collection only from a dealer in Luton. However, last night I came across this ebay seller offering good deals on all sorts of refills. Collection only from Wakefield.

Alternatively, there's the distinctly dodgy DIY refill method.


----------



## Donk (Jul 27, 2014)

I have seen on the LPG pumps that there is a minimum that you can pump, so a small cylinder would be no good.

My idea was to fill a 9kg propane cylinder then decant it into my 907's. (which i have done before with butane)

I am told that 1ltr of LPG is aprox 500gms and only to fill an empty cylinder (and only ever fill an EMPTY cylinder) to 80% capacity. 

A 9kg bottle would hold 14.5 lts so at around 70p per ltr that would cost just over £10


----------



## Tbear (Jul 27, 2014)

Steve121 said:


> Collection only from a dealer in Luton. However, last night I came across this ebay seller offering good deals on all sorts of refills. Collection only from Wakefield.
> 
> Alternatively, there's the distinctly dodgy DIY refill method.



Looks less dodgy than pouring 80 litres of petrol into a tank on a garage forecourt with god knows who doing god knows what just behind you.

Richard


----------



## frontslide (Jul 27, 2014)

WGWarburton said:


> Hi,
> First post, and probably a daft one.. Apologies in advance if this has been discussed before and I failed to find the right posts in the archive....
> 
> 
> ...


I have same van but a little bit smaller as not long wheel base i use a Calor 4.5 bottle and also carry a spare.
http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/show-us-your-van-motorhome/22866-hiace-reimo.html


----------



## WGWarburton (Jul 28, 2014)

frontslide said:


> I have same van but a little bit smaller as not long wheel base i use a Calor 4.5 bottle and also carry a spare.
> http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/show-us-your-van-motorhome/22866-hiace-reimo.html



Hi Frontslide,
                   I'd be interested to know where you carry them but the issue for me is that the layout of my van doesn't have a suitable space available.

 It's an unusual (Japanese- Noppo) conversion which did not come with cooking facilities or any obvious place to install them. I have installed a folding dual-burner+grill stove onto a folding shelf, so the cooker unit folds up neatly out of the way, and have adapted a cupboard space for the Campingaz bottles that I am using at the moment (1x907+1x901). The extra couple of inches diameter of the Calor bottle would encroach significantly on the remaining cupboard space, which I am using for pans and so on. There's enough height to put in a small Calor bottle but there isn't enough depth to get two of them in there (or even two 907s, for that matter- the side-by-side 907+901 combination (203mm+110mm+fiddles) is pretty tight as it is!
 There's an underseat storage area that could be freed up, but it's not high enough for a Calor bottle, would be much harder to vent effectively, would need a longer run of gas pipe through bulkheads and is located next to a cabin heater (warmed by the engine) and under the bed so I am reluctant to use it...

 My current thinking is that I may be able to use a bit of space _above_ my current 907 bottle. It isn't big enough to store a second 907 but I think I can put in a shelf to hold a 904(!). That would be significantly cheaper than using 901s as backups (£13.50/Kg for a 904  cf. £36/Kg in a 901. 907 is about £10/Kg, significantly more than Calor but comparable with small disposables).

 Thanks to all for the excellent information that's been submitted to this thread. It's been very useful to me and helped me to understand my options and the pros and cons of the various alternatives.

Cheers,
           W.


----------



## vwalan (Jul 29, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> You are right but other members asked for a link for one of these on this thread



but with other adaptors you can adapt that to fill camping gas . 
in fact even with a uk gas tank fitting you have to adapt the filling for other countries so adaption is the key. 
you can buy adaptors to fit almost any bottle to any filling adaptor or regulator . all available world wide from hardware shops camping shops etc .


----------



## Firefox (Jul 29, 2014)

Here's another ebay adapter for £33.

If you are interested in filling abroad too, this one also comes with the dish adapter which fits many countries including France (see advert for list)

LPG -ADAPTORkit, With VALVE INSIDE for refill Motorhome Gas Bottles in 26 countr | eBay

You'll save the purchase price on a couple of fills.

Every three years, depending on usage, swap your cylinders for genuine exchange ones via the normal process. You will thus get a "new" cylinder from Calor with up to date safety checks etc.


----------



## vwalan (Jul 29, 2014)

best is flogas no deposit on lots of their bottles and cheaper to exchange .


----------



## witzend (Jul 29, 2014)

Have refilled by gas bottles but decanting one to another doesn't seem to work for me any suggestions


----------



## vwalan (Jul 29, 2014)

decanting does work. if you ever took the road to india you find decanting is very often the only way to get your bottle filled . they do it for you fron the big 45 kilo bottles . 
are you trying to fill through regulators or adaptors with one way valves . this will stop you . 
i left the gas station in agadir a butane clip on adaptor about 15 yrs ago so they could fill our clip on butane bottles . they couldnt fill uk butane bottles till they saw my clip on to butane thread adaptor . they filled mine and i left the adaptor with them . luckily i had another . 
got free gas the next year as well.


----------



## spigot (Jul 30, 2014)

Steve121 said:


> Collection only from a dealer in Luton. However, last night I came across this ebay seller offering good deals on all sorts of refills. Collection only from Wakefield.
> 
> Alternatively, there's the distinctly dodgy DIY refill method.




Couple of years ago in Trivandrum, India I spotted a guy filling gas bottles with a cheroot stuck in his mouth.

Whether it was alight or not, I didn't hang about to find out!!


----------



## Steve121 (Jul 30, 2014)

spigot said:


> Couple of years ago in Trivandrum, India I spotted a guy filling gas bottles with a cheroot stuck in his mouth.
> 
> Whether it was alight or not, I didn't hang about to find out!!



Several years ago a colleague was touring Tunisia and got his gas bottles filled while he waited. The chap doing it was actually smoking a cigarette as the gas flowed!


----------



## vwalan (Jul 30, 2014)

as long as gas isnt escaping it cant catch fire . doing it properly only the gas left in the hose can escape . 
people worry about filling stations but think how many sparks a cars distributor makes per minute as well as the alternator ,door switches .starter motor . etc .thousands per minute in a petrol station by one vehicle .


----------



## Tbear (Jul 30, 2014)

Tut, Tut, Naughty David 

Richard


----------



## vwalan (Jul 30, 2014)

even when you fill a proper lpg tank or refillable bottles there is always a loss of gas as you disconnect the nozzle . 
might be more than in a short hose as it is under a greater pressure . 
its amazing as you travel around what you can see. 
but care must always be taken by everyone .


----------

