# A long and mysterious tale



## maureenandtom (Oct 28, 2010)

PART ONE

This is a long and mysterious story.   Because of this I'll tell it in several parts and I'd like to invite your comments.   This is not a humorous story and the comments I hope to get are asked for in all seriousness.

Let's say you return to the town of your birth in your campervan , visiting parents and other family and suddenly, in the car park you are used to using you see this sign.







Do you say to yourself, perhaps, that people with knowledge and authority have decided that campervans should not be allowed here and immediately go off to book into a campsite?   After all the people who live here should decide how the car parks they pay for should be used.

Or, do you say to yourself;  this is completely unfair.   Overnight parking is permitted;  what's it got to do with anybody else what goes on in my car after I park up?   All sorts go on in cars.    I know, I got up to some of them.   So do you ignore the sign, park up and go to sleep for the night?   There's a whole lot of other offences listed separately but we needn't concern ourselves with them - they don't apply to us.

Do you, perhaps, see that overnight parking is permitted – it's just sleeping here that isn't - so do you park up anyway and go and sleep on your mother's sofa for the night?   Or perhaps you park up overnight but go and book into a bed and breakfast place?   Or maybe just unscrew the notice and put it in the nearest wheelie bin?

What do you do and what do you think I should have done.


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## Tbear (Oct 28, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> PART ONE
> 
> This is a long and mysterious story.   Because of this I'll tell it in several parts and I'd like to invite your comments.   This is not a humorous story and the comments I hope to get are asked for in all seriousness.
> 
> ...


 
Check the POI file for another local spot?


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## vwalan (Oct 28, 2010)

i would have several options .1 park up it doesnt say no m,homes. 
2 sleep in your mums . 
3 sleep but dont draw the curtains or something like that. 
4 have a look at the rest of sign and see if it quotes a bye law that restricts sleeping etc . 
is it a private car park or council. ?
ask around if anybody knows of a bye law. 
may have difficulty staying as it appears they want money. 
there is the option to go somewhere else. cheers carry on whats the catch. 
cheers alan.


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## David & Ann (Oct 28, 2010)

1. It does not state motorhomes are not permitted.
2. Now I am scoring points!!! Yes, you can sleep in the motorhome. I say this, as you are sleeping in your motorhome and not in the car park, where the sign does not mention motorhomes. Your being/body has no contact with the tarmac of the car park. Boy, is this complicating. One of you lads are going to give me some stick. I am signing off.


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## Tony Lee (Oct 29, 2010)

Which part of the sign are you having problems understanding?


Next step will be height barriers so even the dumbest motorists don't have a problem deciding.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

Tony Lee said:


> Which part of the sign are you having problems understanding?
> 
> 
> Next step will be height barriers so even the dumbest motorists don't have a problem deciding.



No need to be offensive, Tony.   I hope to provoke a discussion.  It would have been enough to say that you would obey the sign without question.   I want opinions.   Even of the whinging, petulant sort like "you'll spoil things for the rest of us."   But not offensive, please.

However, I did say that it is a long and mysterious tale so on to Part Two.   

PART TWO

Let's introduce some hard economic facts into the decision making process.   On to Part Two of my long and mysterious tale.

Let's say you see that if you do stay in your van you might incur a fine of £50 if you get caught.         However, if you pay this fine promptly it will be reduced to £25.   As a pensioner used to budgeting you quickly calculate that local campsites will charge you £20 for the night (you've been told that's the price) and that if you get two nights sleeping here overnight before you get a ticket then you will have had two nights for £25 instead of £40 to a campsite showing a profit of £15 over the two nights.   If you get more nights in before getting a ticket then you're even more in profit.   

And it's late;  you've been driving all day to get here.  You reckon they can't have car park wardens on the night shift.   Also you know that car parking has been decriminalised so the police won't bother you.

Does this make up your mind to stay overnight and use the profit for something more interesting.   Some flowers for your mother, perhaps.

Or do you think that if you park here you'll maybe spoil things for the rest of us (people are always saying that) so do you spend that £20 on a campsite.   You're going to be in your home town for a week;  that's £140 for the week to a campsite owner?  For a parking place!   That's £40 more than a week's state pension.

But what now?   Do you stay overnight and accept the ticket with good grace and without rancour if you get one?   What will you do when the rest of us say, “You b*?&%$£, you'll spoil things for the rest of us?”

Tell me please.    What do you do now?   I reckon you're going to stay.  That's what I'm going to do.


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## Tbear (Oct 29, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> No need to be offensive, Tony.   I hope to provoke a discussion.  It would have been enough to say that you would obey the sign without question.   I want opinions.   Even of the whinging, petulant sort like "you'll spoil things for the rest of us."   But not offensive, please.
> 
> However, I did say that it is a long and mysterious tale so on to Part Two.
> 
> ...



Hi  maureenandtom 
At risk of repeating myself, check the POI file for a close alternative.
Richard


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

in fact i cant make a decision as there is more to the sign .i need to see more info. its decieving us to just show that part of the sign. at the moment we have already to believe you are visiting your mother but we trust you so without the rest of the sign we cant really carry on giving ideas. 
tony .there are many signs in the world that have no value or meaning legally .infact many are illegal and shoulnt be there to start with. big brother needs watching. authority is the biggest trickster out there . more info please .cheers alan
i do get involved with this sort of thing very often and very ofter find the sign is a bluff .


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

You haven't got SatNav.  It's out of order or you're a free member and haven't access to it or it's late and you're tired.  Unfortunately, that isn't an option.

Don't forget, overnight parking is perfectly legal here.  It is permitted under the rules.  The notice says, "No Sleeping".   And even sleeping is allowed - but not "Overnight Sleeping."   Who is to know you've got your head down.  Other than you, of course.

It's you and your conscience.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

Alan, 

Sorry, I posted at the same time as you.  You're right.   If you obey completely every sign you see then you would never park outside my house because I'd put a sign up.   

So, more please.   So far, I've decided to stay overnight.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

The rest of the sign.   Actually, it is the rest of the sign is it was a couple of months ago.   I may have a copy of the sign as it was at the time but I lost a lot of pictures about a year ago.  I'll search for it.





By null at 2010-10-24


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## Tbear (Oct 29, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> You haven't got SatNav.  It's out of order or you're a free member and haven't access to it or it's late and you're tired.  Unfortunately, that isn't an option.
> 
> Don't forget, overnight parking is perfectly legal here.  It is permitted under the rules.  The notice says, "No Sleeping".   And even sleeping is allowed - but not "Overnight Sleeping."   Who is to know you've got your head down.  Other than you, of course.
> 
> It's you and your conscience.


 
Maureenandtom,

First grumble at wife for not bringing a working sat nav
Second get out, fresh air,wake up, look at rest of signs, good scan of local area, speak to mum, make decision! 
As the sign was was put up by someone who is a bit anal, to have so much detail. I have a feeling that a traffic warden will be around every half hour or never so mum should know best. Has she ever seen a ticket/clamp on a car or van?

Richard


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## wildman (Oct 29, 2010)

first let me say there is always someplace to park other than a carpark, however back to the sign, none of the contraventions listed include sleeping in a legally parked and paid for parking space. So I would say the no camping is a bluff with no specific local byelaw to prohibit it.
Me I'm sleeping on mums couch, you want to sleep there, then go ahead.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

True, there's always somewhere else to park.   So if you sleep on Mum's sofa - where do you park the van?   It's perfectly legal to park overnight even right under the notice.  So leave it there?   Other people leave their cars there overnight so your van should be safe there on its own.

Seems a bit much to leave the van there all alone.  Unprotected.  Full of a television, satellite equipment - all the comforts of home, in fact - all your nice things.

I have found the original photograph of the contraventions but it's blurred and not fit to be shown.  However, it's just like the modern one except that the orginal had one more contravention _"PCN 11 - Cooking, camping, sleeping."_


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

a motor home is a car definition category m1. so why not park in a car park and give who ever loads of grief. but carry on we still need more info . who put the sign up is it local authority or private and did you getr a ticket .tell us as we may be able to help you. one of my specialities arguing with authority. so far have never lost.


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## Airecraft (Oct 29, 2010)

An interesting post.  I no longer take any notice of No Overnighting signs unless they are legally sound, showing penalties. When the 2006 Golf Open was staged near my house the council put up "no overnight parking for MH" signs. When I rang them to complain that I couldn't park my MH outside my own house they said to ignore the signs which had no weight in law. I no longer take any notice of No Overnighting signs unless they are legally sound, showing penalties.As this one does I personally wouldn't park there but agree with the economics of a multi night stay and a single fine. The only reasons I can see for these restrictions is envy, campsite greed or resentment of someone getting something for nothing - none of which are valid, IMHO.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

PART THREE

And this is where the story turns a little more sinister.   I had stayed four nights – turning up late, leaving early.  I was quite unobtrusive.   But I was quids in, right?   It would be £25 for the fine but £100 not spent on campsite fees.   This was a total of five nights.  Yes, I know - pushing it a bit.

But yes, I did get a ticket.  This one.






And you see that the parking attendant wrote out the ticket at quarter past midnight having observed me peacefully sleeping at eight minutes past midnight.

Do you think that perhaps we have here a nice man to have let you sleep the night away when he could have woken you and sent you on your way.  In the dark.   Oh, what a nice man.

But then you think, hang on, I didn't get in until well after midnight.  I was out visiting my mum, wasn't I?   Didn't get back until about one.

Do you think that; well hang on, maybe that nice man did bang on the door.  Maybe he got no reply.    Because you weren't there.    Maybe he thought to himself that he might as well give you a ticket anyway even though overnight parking is allowed – it's just overnight sleeping that isn't.   And that overnight sleep won't have been completed by midnight anyway.   So there has been no offence at eight minutes past midnight.  But if you pay it then you're guilty, aren't you?   Paying it is admitting it.

Do you think to yourself that there might be something wrong with a society which has parking attendants, who are petty officials working for us, the public, creeping around issuing parking tickets at midnight?   Do you think it stinks?   Some manager, maybe, put on some overtime just to catch you and not caring whether you're there or not or whether you are guilty or not?    No need to prove anything, just issue a ticket.    Or, perhaps some would-be little Hitler going home from the pub and just happens to have the parking ticket pad in his pocket and sees an opportunity to bump up his quota?

What do you do?   Do you count up how much you're in profit, smile sweetly and smugly, and pay up?  Or do you have a tantrum?


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

me .i wouldnt pay . but i still say i need to see more of the ticket to know if its a private one or a council one and then make a search to see if the order is legal. looks like it isnt from what i see . but cant be certain. dont like the term excess payment. i ould have wrote a letter saying i wasnt asleep in the vehicle . it was parked . in a car bay . as permitted and i was not camping etc . anyway carry on . some think mines a lorry but i can prove its a light car and caravan. if i want t o. sometimes its nice to be a lorry . i wear different hats when it suits me .ha ha cheers alan.


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## Kontiki (Oct 29, 2010)

If you have all the blinds drawn & are making no noise, how does anybody know you are in there? Also you say the fine was for overnight sleeping  how could they prove you were asleep, I'm a bit hard of hearing & mightn't here anybody knocking on the door, I have the blinds drawn for privacy BUT am I asleep. 

Often if we park on a car park day or night we will draw the blinds if we are leaving the vehicle. As you could be sleeping on your mums couch (assuming she will back you up) ask them to prove you were in the vehicle at the time they stated. 

Another point - what is the actual definition of overnight?? If I arrive after midnight then it is early morning so am I overmorning not overnighting  When does morning start in the eyes of the law. I do tend to take notice of signs saying no overnight parking or sleeping in vehicles, signs just saying no camping I often ignore as I am not camping just parking overnight.

The whole fiasco is a bit ridiculous, I can park legally up to a certain time but then after a magic hour at night I am committing an offence even if I have paid any amount requested.


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## Tbear (Oct 29, 2010)

You did the crime now do the time. Have the good grace to pay up and move on.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

Well, yes.  But it's a bit of a dilemma yes?    Well, yes.  I was guilty but I wasn't guilty of what I got a ticket for.   Do you not think there's a bit of a difference?   I remember my Mum giving me a little smack once.    Sixty years ago and I still remember it.  “What's that for?”   I was outraged.   “I haven't done anything!”   “Well,” I remember her saying, “it's for when you do do something.”

The council can't just make up an offence NOW because of an offence that I know, but they can only suspect, I committed over the past few nights.   Lots of people get suspected of lots of things;   you can't just convict them because you suspect them.   That way lies some sort of anarchic society.   No, I don't think  “done the crime. do the time” counts on this one.

But I see where you're coming from.   I was guilty really, I just wasn't guilty when they said I was.

But, anyway, you would have paid up, yes?   And you think I should pay up too.  Yes, ok.

Alan.   Yes, this was a genuine council parking ticket.


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## Kontiki (Oct 29, 2010)

I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.

I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.


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## Tbear (Oct 29, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.
> 
> I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.


 
One of the locals will have seen that you are camping there and complained. If it goes to court it is the local council tax payers will have to pay for it all and what have they done wrong. Don,t be one of those bl***y travellers and pay up before they hight restrict it for the rest of us.


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## Kontiki (Oct 29, 2010)

He was not camping, he was sleeping in his vehicle. WIKI DEFINITION OF CAMPING even then not at the time that was on the ticket.
They will stick up height barriers whatever, to say that any of us are classed as 'travellers' (as in the sense of the type who park illegally & leave a load of rubbish) is way off the point.


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

better not to pay and stand up and be counted . have you broke any laws . i think they may just be out of order .many authorities are . you cant trust them. we do still need more info though . have you checked up to see if they have a proper order . it will be documented somewhere. they cant ban it for all as its a car park. a m,home is a car . height barriers discriminate .it will be in eu court soon about height barriers . there are laws that we can use to protect us from shoddy authority. if you give in they win . the trouble is too many bacvk down . thats why authority gets away with it .yes sir thank you sir . toff cap . cheers alan.


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## Tbear (Oct 29, 2010)

vwalan said:


> better not to pay and stand up and be counted . have you broke any laws . i think they may just be out of order .many authorities are . you cant trust them. we do still need more info though . have you checked up to see if they have a proper order . it will be documented somewhere. they cant ban it for all as its a car park. a m,home is a car . height barriers discriminate .it will be in eu court soon about height barriers . there are laws that we can use to protect us from shoddy authority. if you give in they win . the trouble is too many bacvk down . thats why authority gets away with it .yes sir thank you sir . toff cap . cheers alan.


 
Alan 
If you want to challenge something then fine. You write a letter or make a phone call, have word, if you win then park up and enjoy. If you don,t then move on. Don,t try and get away with it winge if they catch you.
I agree it would be nice to have a bit more info, is this some private company trying it on? I suspect on this occasion a contract has been entered into with the local council and brocken.
Richard


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

then write to the council tell them at the time you werent in the van .and you would like them to take you to court . tnhey wont . it costs to go to court. tell them you have abided by the sign . somewhere on here is loads of advice how to word it . i do my own. never tell them you were in it later the offence is at the time mentioned . so its not fair to pay. if thdey take you gtop court explain that you cant see the relevance of the excess charge . it seems excesive. and specialy as you wasnt in the vehicle at the time . if you were you would expect to be woken up and explained to. also you were visiting your mother have proof of her living close by. no court will do anything .i would be suprised if it went further . i think you would hear no more.the date on the ticket is 3 yr old is it still going on.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 29, 2010)

PART FOUR

While working yourself up into a tantrum you read the parking ticket more fully and through the growing red mist you see that you haven't been fined for sleeping overnight;   you've been fined for “Offence No 11” which you read on the back of the parking ticket – and on the notice board – is for the offence of “Cooking, sleeping, camping” - none of which you were actually doing at quarter past midnight because you were away at your mum's.   And,don't forget this – overnight parking is perfectly legal.

Also you have a retentive memory and you remember seeing this:

Council powerless to ban camper vans (From Bournemouth Echo)


Briefly.  A council wanted to discourage overnight parking by campervans so it  displayed notices saying that overnight parking by campervans was forbidden.   They failed to enforce this ban.   

Local taxpayers complained about the lack of enforcement and the council had to come clean that they were only having everybody on.   They had no powers for the ban and they had just pretended them as a deterrent.   The council wanted its own way, had no right to it, but was ready to lie to get it.   Was ready to spend tax-payers' money on notice boards to get it.   

Is that not fraud?   Is it not illegal to spend our money on projects they have no right to enforce?  It's fraudulent to us in campervans and it is fraudulent to the local residents who think their council is acting legally and who wonder why we in campervans get away with it.







Perhaps by now you're feeling a bit outraged that councils can lie to their employers.   That somehow they feel they can impose their own rules on us rather than what I think is proper and simply administer our rules on our behalf.   See the difference?   We don't do what they want.  We pay them to do what we want.   Our Rules.   Administered on our behalf.  Nothing to do with them what the rules are.   They shouldn't just make them up like they did in this case.

Do you now say, with resignation, well you can't beat city hall and anyway, in all honesty, you were guilty really and you're quids in so you pay the fine.

Or do you have the tantrum properly?   Tell the council you have no intention of paying their fine, that you will see them in court and they will jolly well have to prove they have the power to impose a fine.   For good measure you tell them that countries have gone to war about petty government officials creeping about checking up on citizens at midnight and that you are looking forward to making all this public in court.

What do you do now?  Pay up or take on city hall?


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## vwalan (Oct 29, 2010)

dont mention anything you have told us go to court . been there done it won the case . forget wars we were (i wasnt too young)lied to then and lied to now. we must abide by laws so must they. you are dragging it out we shall play the game bu we win they lose . others pay because they either cant read or have no back bone and possibly would be shot by now.


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## Tony Lee (Oct 30, 2010)

> What do you do now? Pay up or take on city hall?



I think I already mentioned that the councils will have the last laugh against the bush-lawyers, opportunists and nit-pickers. 

They will just install height barriers in yet another car park thereby seriously inconveniencing those who do do the right thing.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2010)

Ah, right.  Ok.

I'm struggling a bit to take this in, Tony.   

Are you saying that we should be docile and just accept illegal actions by councils?   I think you have been offensive and are being offensive and I'm truly struggling to understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.   

Are you truly saying “If this is what the council says then, right or wrong, you'd better accept what they say.   If they can't get their illegal way one way then they will get it in another and I'm frightened of them so you'd better do anything they say.”

I see you are a believer in the politics of fear.   Tony, this is not the way.   You must not be frightened of these people.   We have already seen from another poster that height barriers are being challenged in a hgher court and they might not be allowed to erect barriers willy-nilly.   But I take it, you would then be frightened of what they would do next.

I can't believe you think it is wrong to challenge them.  To make them act within the law.   I can't believe you think we make laws, rules, pay for administration and that, somehow, these people are untouchable.   That goes deeply against everything believe in.

Your faith in Local Government has touched my heart.  Please accept this token of my deepest sympathy.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2010)

PART FIVE – THIS IS THE FINAL PART

Well, I had the tantrum.  I declared war on the council.  And I won.   They cancelled the parking ticket.   I don't know why;  I didn't ask and they didn't tell me.  I was on my way to France and didn't pursue it.

However, for the next couple of years when I visited my home town I just parked on the road outside relatives' houses and slept on the roadside.   I kept a low profile and turned up late and left early.

I did the same a couple of months  ago – again on my way to France.   I stayed in my home town on a duty visit but this time a sadder duty visit to a grave and my visits home won't be so frequent in future.

By chance I walked through the car park where I offended and the same “No overnight sleeping” sign is there.   However, I read through the list of offences and there is now no offence of “Cookng, sleeping, camping.”   The offence has disappeared.   Gone.   It is no more.   Can't be used.

So, it seems to me that although the sign prohibiting overnight sleeping is still there, it now has no teeth.  There is now no offence number which can be listed to impose a fine.

It's my guess that the council had no powers to impose the fine they tried to impose on me.  It's my guess that they didn't pursue me in court because their impotence would have been made public and I would have been found not guilty.  Not guilty because the offence did not exist legally –  there was nothing to be guilty of.   

It's my guess that the council would not wish this to be made public because (1) they would have had to pay back every fine they had ever collected for Offence No 11 and (2) their entire parking policy becomes suspect.  Which parts are legal and which parts are just made up?   How would you know?   They become completely untrustworthy when it comes to parking policy.

I think, but don't know for sure, that we can now park overnight with immunity from a fine.    I think the council has been compelled to bow to legality but it still seeks to impose its will with an empty threat.   A threat it has no legal power to impose for a rule it has not been given the legal right to make.    

I think that, far from spoiling things for the rest of us, I was instrumental in forcing the council into a little legality.   I think they now don't ban something they have no legal power to ban although still pretending they have the power.   See!   See!   Not spoiling things for the rest of us;  making things better.

So what will  you do now?    If you should visit my home town?   Obey the notice?   Ignore that part of the notice and obey the rest​   Agitate with the council as to why it seeks to impose a possibly illegal condition on its car parks? 

Do you think this council is alone?   Do all councils  tell lies about what powers they have?   Why aren't we all defying councils acting illegally?   What do you think they would they do in France?


*Why do you think France has all those Aires?*


What do you do now?   I'm truly interested.   What?


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## Tbear (Oct 30, 2010)

maureenandtom

I am very sorry to hear about your mother.
Three years later you still don't park in that carpark and you still seem very stressed about it. What sort of victory is that
Some of us are trying to change local councils minds about their attitude to motorhomes and people parking where they clearly asked not to is not helping.
After saying that, I in no way agree with the practice of private companies and individuals sending out fines for large amounts of money for people going over their time in a car park by 5 mins.

Richard


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2010)

Tbear said:


> maureenandtom
> 
> I am very sorry to hear about your mother.
> Three years later you still don't park in that carpark and you still seem very stressed about it. What sort of victory is that
> ...



Thank you Richard.

Then I'd like to join you in trying to change councils' minds.  May I?   What shall we do?  I've already tried.  If you look back at my posts you will see that I have been active in a minor sort of way.   Copeland Council, Forestry Commission.  Other things too.  But now, if you tell me what you're doing, I'd like to help.

The evidence is that so far you haven't been successful.  I have been.  In what way was my appeal against my parking ticket unhelpful?  It was successful.  It must have been helpful.  The offence was removed from the offence list.  Why was it wrong to appeal?  I'm lost.   And waiting for enlightenment.

I'm not being a bush-lawyer or nit-picking or anything like that.  I just want to know.   Though I think that was just gratuitous abuse - not really meant.


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## Tbear (Oct 30, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you Richard.
> 
> Then I'd like to join you in trying to change councils' minds.  May I?   What shall we do?  I've already tried.  If you look back at my posts you will see that I have been active in a minor sort of way.   Copeland Council, Forestry Commission.  Other things too.  But now, if you tell me what you're doing, I'd like to help.
> 
> ...



Abuse was not my intent in any way shape or form. If you want to help approach your council with a simple polite argument on why we should follow the French Aires system giving reasons for and against and posible profit and expenditure, benifits to the enviroment, etc. Find a posible site, consider sewage, drainage, fresh water and electric supply and don't be too offended by people telling you that you are having no success


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2010)

But you think we shouldn't appeal against parking tickets?

(Edit - Sorry, just being a little malicious.   I know you agree with the appeals procedure and wouldn't want it abolished.

I do think we should use the approach you advocate and I have used it myself.   Unsuccessfuly.  And it needn't be our only route.   My greates success using your method was with Copeland Council whose tourist people were with us all the way until they came up against their own parking people who thought their parking policy was carved into blocks of marble - unchangeable. )


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## Tbear (Oct 30, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> But you think we shouldn't appeal against parking tickets?
> 
> (Edit - Sorry, just being a little malicious.   I know you agree with the appeals procedure and wouldn't want it abolished.
> 
> I do think we should use the approach you advocate and I have used it myself.   Unsuccessfuly.  And it needn't be our only route.   My greates success using your method was with Copeland Council whose tourist people were with us all the way until they came up against their own parking people who thought their parking policy was carved into blocks of marble - unchangeable. )


You have a legal right to appeal anything you like.
Forgive my ignorance but does Copland come under the national parks rules if it does you may have more of a problem than I do. Even so, ask for help on here, some of the members have a wealth of knowledge. Appeal their decision


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## vwalan (Oct 30, 2010)

we dont have to be a bush lawyer to know and look at law. i have very succesfully acted in courts to defend the rights of innocent drivers . there are laws the councils ,police etc must obey the laws .they are not imune . i play a part in many groups that stand up for correct obeying of the laws . we are here to obey and as a law abiding citizen you have rights . trouble is many run around doffing caps to authority and never realise they are being lead down the garden path. just make good investigations , it apears authority gets it wrong as many times as it gets it right . but still punishes the innocent. you could lose your job ,but nobody in authority loses theirs it was just an oversight. cheers alan.


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## Tbear (Oct 30, 2010)

vwalan said:


> we dont have to be a bush lawyer to know and look at law. i have very succesfully acted in courts to defend the rights of innocent drivers . there are laws the councils ,police etc must obey the laws .they are not imune . i play a part in many groups that stand up for correct obeying of the laws . we are here to obey and as a law abiding citizen you have rights . trouble is many run around doffing caps to authority and never realise they are being lead down the garden path. just make good investigations , it apears authority gets it wrong as many times as it gets it right . but still punishes the innocent. you could lose your job ,but nobody in authority loses theirs it was just an oversight. cheers alan.


 
Hi Alan

I don't doubt for one second that some officials are prats and are happy for us to suffer because of there arrogance and incompetence but what I am looking for is laws, acts,etc that would help in a positive way, in the setting up of quality, safe, legal motorhome parking. Rather than just pi**ing them off by proving what prats they are. However please don't let me stop you doing it as its good to have a stick to beat them with if and when they don't listen.

Richard


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## vwalan (Oct 30, 2010)

the laws are already there we dont have to change hardly any . we just have to make sure that they are implemented properly. you cant chage legislation easy and the answer is it could get changed for the worse. use todays legislation thats in place . i hope i explain it better putting it like this.


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## maingate (Oct 30, 2010)

There is a thread on Motorhome Fun at the moment about staying for days in a car park. A MHF member (weejocky) is incensed at somebody doing this.

If that was you maureenandtom, he is the one who shopped you. Give him a good kick in the b*****ks.


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## Kontiki (Oct 30, 2010)

The only grounds I could possibly see to you not being able to cook in your van on a car park is on safety grounds & that being very unlikely unless your motorhome was unsafe then you shouldn't be cooking anywhere. As for sleeping in your van just what is the problem, you aren't causing any harm & you aren't disturbing anybody. Just where is the difference from leaving your van in a car park with the blinds drawn to actually being asleep in the van  Just what are they afraid of, your snoring disturbing the peace. I have no sympathy for anybody leaving rubbish or waste & think they should be prosecuted but thankfully no responsible motorhome owner would do this. I wouldn't condone anybody using a technicality to escape a fine for things such as speeding but in the case of sleeping in your own vehicle or as mentioned on another thread staying longer than 2 hours on a motorway service area then it's time we stood up to them.


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> The only grounds I could possibly see to you not being able to cook in your van on a car park is on safety grounds & that being very unlikely unless your motorhome was unsafe then you shouldn't be cooking anywhere. As for sleeping in your van just what is the problem, you aren't causing any harm & you aren't disturbing anybody. Just where is the difference from leaving your van in a car park with the blinds drawn to actually being asleep in the van  Just what are they afraid of, your snoring disturbing the peace. I have no sympathy for anybody leaving rubbish or waste & think they should be prosecuted but thankfully no responsible motorhome owner would do this. I wouldn't condone anybody using a technicality to escape a fine for things such as speeding but in the case of sleeping in your own vehicle or as mentioned on another thread staying longer than 2 hours on a motorway service area then it's time we stood up to them.


 
Kontiki

Very well said. I guess the reason behind all this has nothing to do with safety. People are cooking in their homes all around you, why not in their Motorhomes. Just an excuse to make life hard for the travellers, stop groups of them moving in and setting up camps and we have all seen the damage they course.


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## lebesset (Oct 31, 2010)

I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas 

motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up


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## Tony Lee (Oct 31, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> Ah, right.  Ok.
> 
> I'm struggling a bit to take this in, Tony.
> 
> ...


 
Excessive use of the word "Offensive" and other similar protestations of having been wronged is a bit of a dead giveaway that the you don't have a valid argument. 
 If you can put forward a supposedly hypothetical scenario - or even a real one, then you should be tolerant of those putting forward a realistic result of following the path you have outlined.
Instead of being supposedly offended and falling back on ineffectual personal insults and pathetic sarcasm that advance your argument and your character not a jot, why don't you have a go at taking your scenario a bit further and discussing the likely outcome of larger scale civil disobedience  - a sort of reductio ad absurdum argument - rather than just confining it to one piddling incident. If height barriers are not a logical outcome of improper use of public or private facilities, then why are there so many around - not only on your overcrowded patch, but in many places on the Continent as well.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2010)

Interesting.

Why "improper"?


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## vwalan (Oct 31, 2010)

we do have to condsider the words used improper , civil disobediance . 
parking a m,home is not improper in a car park. a m,home is a car as defined in law. the civil disibediance .is a none starter as the authorities are already breaking some laws. they are the ones making improper rules and punishing improperly. shifting blame on to a motorist is not the way forward . as for hieght barriers there are laws that indicate they are discrimnating high vehicles . there is no reason to think they can or will stop improper use as rubbish throwers or indesirables can be in low height cars. or small pickups. some may say two wrongs dont make a right but the parking of a m,home is correct. there is only the one wrong . miss use of authority. and waste of public money making the signs and patroling the area giving incorrect penalty tickets . we can use the laws we have to stop this type of abuse by council officials . and we should .its about time uk people stopped letting these type of missuse of authority go on. stand now and question them .make them abide by the laws we have to. 
cheers alan.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you Alan.   I have to thank Tony for putting his finger, unwittingly, on the point of the whole mysterious tale.

It is my opinion, and I think it is a good opinion, that my use of the car park was proper.   The notice was improper in that the council took on itself the right to display such a notice when it had no legal right to do so.   We are under no obligation to obey an illegally displayed notice. 

My evidence that the council notice is improper is at least three fold. 

  (1)  There has been at least one other council who admitted that it had no legal authority to display such a notice.  I published that evidence in this thread and the likelihood is that all such notices have no legality.  Where's Channa when we need him?  

(2)  When challenged, they withdrew the attempt to fine me;  they aren't normally in the business of issuing fines and withdrawing them, and 

(3) the specific offence of “cooking, camping, sleeping” has been withdrawn from their list of offences.

Councils must, and I say MUST, not be allowed to make up their own rules.  The rules are our rules;  they are no more than the administrators of our rules and we, and they, forget this at our peril.

So, Tony or anyone else who thinks councils can do no wrong, I ask again, “Why improper?”


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## vwalan (Oct 31, 2010)

its a bit like going to spain .i would never go now with out the ..........
instrution 08/v-74 de la dirrecion general de traffico relativa a las autocarananas ...............it was from the minister of interiour pere navarro olivella to all units of the agency. and it was made available to the public. 
i have it in spanish and english . you can get it off the web. it was first put on by one of the spanish m,home clubs. it s ideal for waving in the face to the guardia and policea in spain. they usually leave me alone or even show me to a better place to stay. cheers alan.


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## Kontiki (Oct 31, 2010)

lebesset said:


> I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up



I can't see that the motorway parking areas would get blocked up, after all who would want to stay longer than necessary at a motorway service station. At night time they are relatively quiet anyway.
2 hours is hardly enough to have a decent break if you are tired, there are sometimes very few service areas on some motorways.


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## bill2b (Feb 28, 2011)

lebesset said:


> I personally agree with most of the comments here ...except I agree with the 2 hour rule on motorway service areas
> 
> motorways are are high traffic area 24 hour roads , the areas are for people to stop and have a break ...if people are allowed to stop for long periods they will soon get blocked up


 
Yes but when we came back from France last year after a glorious 10 days of free motor homing (and car racing) we were due to catch the late ferry and we decided to stop somewhere in UK to have a sleep, well all the laybys and a lot of the roads from Kent were full to the brim of (mostly foreign lorries) in fact we never found a layby with any room in it till Grantham but by then we only had 20 odd miles to go.
All the motorway signs tell you not to travel when your tired but then you are threatened with ridiculous  charges if you dare to stay longer than 2 hours.

Its a disgrace the way our motorways are run and to say you support the 2 hour limit is complete b0llix 

Its better to have a rest than drive tired, what would you do just drive on till you fall asleep and have an accident?


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## bill2b (Feb 28, 2011)

PS
I'm with you Maureen and Tom

Well done


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## tf bundy (Apr 27, 2011)

*!*

Maureen and Tom, I agree totally with you. We should never lay down and roll over for these petty officials. Your example is an inspiration to me, and one that I will test in the near future.

Remember this all who doubt Maureen and Tom's tale............ultimately, its all about money, thats all.

Money from fines, money from taxes that we pay at every single opportunity, money for the camp site owners who complain because we are not giving them OUR money to park in a particular part of the world, and who in turn pass on some of that money in the form of tax.

Those who believe that we should just "give in" have forgotten what life is all about, and I will tell you one thing, its NOT about petty minded officials enforcing pointless regulations. I have always resisted them, and I always will. Without meaning to sound all citizen smith, we are all equal in this life, its just that some of us (council officials) choose to try and rule us, note I say rule us, and not serve us. I believe that very few of those in power do so out of some civic duty, but out of ego and economic self progression. After all, who would want to rule the people?? A few may choose to serve, but they are very few and far between.

So, this is about money and lies, designed to bully and instill a sense of legal fear into us.
Well done Maureen and Tom, you have kept your values true. I applaude you.

"Power to the people" LOL, now I am citizen Smith!!


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## Viktor (Oct 26, 2011)

An Excellent Thread!

Please Phil make this sticky so it appears at the top of the listings for attention.


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## Admin (Jul 19, 2015)

Thread reopened


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## maureenandtom (Jul 19, 2015)

My thanks to Phil for reopening the thread that I might make this, possibly, final post.

North Devon Motorhomes, trailers and motorbikes

_"If your motorhome is under 3.500 kg and can fit within a normal parking bay, you are welcome to park in any car park, displaying a valid pay and display ticket."
_


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## Tezza (Jul 20, 2015)

Kontiki said:


> I think I would not pay, even though I knew full well that I was committing the offence if I did park there (assuming it is an offence, but does it have any legality). If they have their facts wrong i.e. the time of the alleged offence & you have a witness (your mother) then they can't expect you to pay up.
> 
> I would question what council official would be doing the job at that time of the night, unless he was actually on the 'clock' (this is working as a council official & paid to be doing the job at that time of night) the ticket has then been issued by just another member of the public who doesn't have any more right than you or me to put a ticket on your vehicle.


Weymouth council have one warden on call every night. Police see unauthorised parking and just give him a call


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## Captain Biggles (Jul 20, 2015)

*Here's one for our ED*

I think that it's about time that we lobbied our M.P's and in addition drew up a list of 'Motorhome Friendly Councils' who we'd be pleased to promote buy staying and spending money there and a list of 'Motorhome Un-friendly Councils' where we would suggest that we do not stop and part with a single farthing (are they still legal tender now):cool1:

Here's one for starters a 'Motorhome Friendly Council' is Powys, they allow motorhomes to park in any of their Car Parks overnight from 6pm-8am totally free of charge with a limit of 1 night in summer & 2 nights in Winter. There's a good one in Brecon almost next to Morrissons, quiet, lit, safe and very handy for your all day breakfast at Morrissons nearby and of course the Town Centre.

These lists ought to be promoted and passed widely to anyone or any organisation in order to promote our cause and shame the 'Non-Motorhome Friendly Councils' into sunmission.

Just a thought Mr ED

     Captain Biggles     lane:


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## Sharon the Cat (Jul 20, 2015)

Captain Biggles said:


> I think that it's about time that we lobbied our M.P's and in addition drew up a list of 'Motorhome Friendly Councils' who we'd be pleased to promote buy staying and spending money there and a list of 'Motorhome Un-friendly Councils' where we would suggest that we do not stop and part with a single farthing (are they still legal tender now):cool1:
> 
> Here's one for starters a 'Motorhome Friendly Council' is Powys, they allow motorhomes to park in any of their Car Parks overnight from 6pm-8am totally free of charge with a limit of 1 night in summer & 2 nights in Winter. There's a good one in Brecon almost next to Morrissons, quiet, lit, safe and very handy for your all day breakfast at Morrissons nearby and of course the Town Centre.
> 
> ...



I wish I could give this some sort of mega-like


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## maingate (Jul 20, 2015)

Sharon the Cat said:


> I wish I could give this some sort of mega-like



John Thompson (WC Member) and the TMCTO have been doing this for some time.

You can join the organisation and even give them a small donation to cover their expenses. They do this voluntarily and will obviously have some costs involved. As they are doing this on our behalf, the least we can do is join the organisation so that they represent a large number of motorhome owners and carry more weight.

Motorhome Tourism Organisation

I hope some genuine WC members do join but in my view, too many motorhome owners have no regard for anyone else but themselves, which results in the bad headlines we get.


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## Sharon the Cat (Jul 20, 2015)

Thanks maingate I have just had a look at John's site & will register.


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