# There is no Law;  There is only Power



## maureenandtom (Nov 13, 2014)

I'd like, in a new thread, to ignore Lincolnshire, East Lothian, Aberystwth, Aberdeen, Cornwall, Scarborough and all that growing list of no-go areas - and discuss why so many of us are willing to see that list grow.

Help me?

*There is no such thing as law;  there is only power. *  Is that what we believe?

Society rubs along with the lubrication of tolerance.   Here at Wild Camping. we are extremely tolerant.  I see posts here where someone will say, “I don't care what the law is, somebody here doesn't want me parking overnight and there are plenty of places for me to go so I will be tolerant of their wishes and park somewhere else.”   And these, or words very like them,  are said with an air of smugness and self-righteousness - “I'm a good wildcamper;  it's you who aren't and you spoil things for the rest of us.  I bow to the power of someone's dislike.”.  

Or some will say;  “Somebody might damage me or my property.  I can't take the risk of getting hurt” or “life's too short to stand up for my rights.  I can't depend on the law to protect me from the lawless.”

That's all very well:  such saintliness,  turning the other cheek, demands admiration - but lots of people dislike lots of things.   Some dislike children with footballs (go and play in front of your own house).   Some dislike old people shopping on Saturdays (they can shop all week, I've only got Saturdays).    Some dislike Sunday shopping (Keep Sunday Special).  Some dislike motorhomes (I think I can't afford one so you shouldn't have one either).   My personal dislike is people saying. “It's all these others, not me, who spoil things for the rest of us.”   Somebody should ban people saying that (petulant whingeing little girls - get shot of them).

We're a nation of individuals who like to ban things.

Where would you tolerant people draw a line?   Do you stop doing everythng  that somebody somewhere dislikes or is there a point where you would say, “I am permitted to do this by law;  I will do this regardless of your dislike?   You will not bully me.“

Or ...

“If I do something you dislike, it's possible you will physically attack me or my van and I'm frightened of you so. though  permitted by law. I will bow to your lawlessness and your unlawful power to injure me or my property.  There is no need for law;  I bow to your power”.

Where would you draw the line?   Where would you make authority obey the rules?

I think we are too apologetic about our motorhoming activities.  The attraction of motorhoming is a tangible thing measured by the quarter of a million motorhomes registered in Britain and the 12% growth rate in numbers.   We need to stop apologising for our activities  We need to stop sneaking about trying to be unobtrusive.  We need to stand up and  say, “Our activities are legal;  try to make them illegal and we will oppose you.and, if we choose to use it, we have the power.   There are a quarter of a million drivers of motorhomes and probably another quarter of a million who sit in the passenger seat and our numbers are growing”.  Half a million people have political power.


Want to inherit the Earth, do you?   I just want to park wherever other motor vehicles are permitted to park and we're losing that by being meek.

Discuss?


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## sinner (Nov 13, 2014)

Well I personally park where I wish, as long as it's within the law... No brave or aggressive but I will stand up for my rights. I paid a small fortune for my van also tax and insurance, why should I bow down to some snoty nob who does not like m/homes?

Alan & Dug

Just my personal view........


Ps, I really do not care if they want me there or not, I want to be there for whatever reason, that's good enough for me ))


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## iampatman (Nov 13, 2014)

I've voted with my wheels. Motorhome in Europe, just go back to see family and MOT. Easy option for us but I appreciate not so easy for others. I would add that I suspect there will be less places to park up (not camp up) in England as time goes on. I think motorhomers are looked upon as freeloaders in much the same way the travelling community was considered in the '80s (I'm not referring to the Romany/Gypsy community). See a motorhome parked up for a day or so in a pleasant, or unpleasant spot, and folk think you've taken up residence. You've only got to read the threads on here about the grief folk get for parking their motorhomes outside their houses to get an idea of joe publics general attitude to motorhomes. Sorry to be negative and whilst I'd like to say it might get worse before it gets better I honestly think it's just going to get worse and there will become less and less (fewer and fewer?) places to park up and enjoy the coast and countryside in England. 
Having said that if you want someone to help in a massive blockade of motorways to make a point I'm up for it. Just give me a few days notice. 
Pat


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## John H (Nov 13, 2014)

iampatman said:


> I've voted with my wheels. Motorhome in Europe, just go back to see family and MOT. Easy option for us but I appreciate not so easy for others. I would add that I suspect there will be less places to park up (not camp up) in England as time goes on. I think motorhomers are looked upon as freeloaders in much the same way the travelling community was considered in the '80s (I'm not referring to the Romany/Gypsy community). See a motorhome parked up for a day or so in a pleasant, or unpleasant spot, and folk think you've taken up residence. You've only got to read the threads on here about the grief folk get for parking their motorhomes outside their houses to get an idea of joe publics general attitude to motorhomes. Sorry to be negative and whilst I'd like to say it might get worse before it gets better I honestly think it's just going to get worse and there will become less and less (fewer and fewer?) places to park up and enjoy the coast and countryside in England.
> Having said that if you want someone to help in a massive blockade of motorways to make a point I'm up for it. Just give me a few days notice.
> Pat



While I agree with you and we also spend most of our time in motorhome-friendly Europe, I am not quite so pessimistic about the UK. We spent the summer in Scotland - brilliant place to wildcamp and we know of several places in England where there is no problem at all. It seems to me that all you have to do is use basic common sense. If there are fifteen other vans there and the locals are angry, move on; there are lots of places where people rarely stop and where, therefore, the locals are not angry. Personally, I can't understand the need of some to park up in huge numbers by the seaside - salt does my motorhome no good at all - and I'd rather be in the wonderful rural mountainous areas where people are welcoming and my van is safe.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 13, 2014)

John H said:


> W. . .. *If* there are fifteen other vans there and *the locals are angry, move on*; there are lots of places where people rarely stop and where, therefore, the locals are not angry. Personally, I can't understand the need of some to park up in huge numbers by the seaside - salt does my motorhome no good at all - and I'd rather be in the wonderful rural mountainous areas where people are welcoming and my van is safe.



Thank you, John.   I'll put you down firmly on the side of power then.

Any other views?  Anyone on the side of law and order?


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## John H (Nov 13, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you, John.   I'll put you down firmly on the side of power then.
> 
> Any other views?  Anyone on the side of law and order?



So you enjoy annoying people, then? Well done - remind me never to be anywhere near you.:lol-053:


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## barryd (Nov 13, 2014)

Unfortunately people are like sheep and motorhomers generally more so.  I do most of my wilding in Europe but you can guarantee that not long after you find your perfect isolated wild spot on your own someone else will see you and come and join you and then it escalates.  Before you know it you have formed your own Aire.  And why do they feel the need to park 6 ft from you when your on a 32 acre field or car park?

Just apply common sense.  IF its busy and there is no room left for cars move on.  IF there are already so many vans there that it looks like a gypsy camp move on.  Do not beleive all this strength in numbers crap.  IF you get broken into by the mad axeman of North Berwick I wont be coming to rescue you. :lol-053:


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## maureenandtom (Nov 13, 2014)

John H said:


> So you enjoy annoying people, then? Well done - *remind me never to be anywhere near you.*:lol-053:



You may be sure of it.

However,

I want to discuss* Law versus Power.*


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## sinner (Nov 13, 2014)

barryd said:


> Unfortunately people are like sheep and motorhomers generally more so.  I do most of my wilding in Europe but you can guarantee that not long after you find your perfect isolated wild spot on your own someone else will see you and come and join you and then it escalates.  Before you know it you have formed your own Aire.  And why do they feel the need to park 6 ft from you when your on a 32 acre field or car park?
> 
> Just apply common sense.  IF its busy and there is no room left for cars move on.  IF there are already so many vans there that it looks like a gypsy camp move on.  Do not beleive all this strength in numbers crap.  IF you get broken into by the mad axeman of North Berwick I wont be coming to rescue you. :lol-053:



I am much the same as you Barry, apart from North berwick and Dunbar as they are on my doorstep, dug and I love the walks and the parking is good. Normally if there is more than one other van anywhere else I move on find another nice quiet spot, but then again I really am an unsociable git lol 

Alan & dug

Ps
Also it really pisses me off that they put these signs up trying to make it look like they are legal and your breaking the law!!!!


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## sinner (Nov 13, 2014)

runnach said:


> This is what I like about Alan, he tells the truth :lol-053:



You know it big man )) 


Me and dug were down your way at the weekend looked out for you but no see :-((


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## runnach (Nov 13, 2014)

Law v power ? the problem I have is your constant self appointed meddling that certainly doesnt represent me ...I full timed 4 and a half years and your meddling from your surburbia you don't have to deal with the consequences nor does your pal the strangeone.

Do us all a favour pack in motorhoming and take up cake decorating or something.!

Weekend warrior ...dont need you and your ways so do us all a favour ...shut the frick up.

FWIW your heart is in the right place but your methodology is seriously flawed .

Channa


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## John H (Nov 13, 2014)

channa said:


> Law v power ? the problem I have is your constant self appointed meddling that certainly doesnt represent me ...I full timed 4 and a half years and your meddling from your surburbia you don't have to deal with the consequences nor does your pal the strangeone.
> 
> Do us all a favour pack in motorhoming and take up cake decorating or something.!
> 
> ...



And that sums it up better than anything anyone else could say, so I will now go to bed! Well done channa - but I doubt if the idiots are listening. :hammer:


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## Val54 (Nov 13, 2014)

Perhaps the lack of responses from our wider community reflects the fact that most of us are just quietly getting on with enjoying our hobby in our own way without slagging each other off.
Dave


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## shamrock (Nov 13, 2014)

channa said:


> Law v power ? the problem I have is your constant self appointed meddling that certainly doesnt represent me ...I full timed 4 and a half years and your meddling from your surburbia you don't have to deal with the consequences nor does your pal the strangeone.
> 
> Do us all a favour pack in motorhoming and take up cake decorating or something.!
> 
> ...


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

Without knowing - I'd plagiarised the thread title.

It comes from George Orwell.

I thought I'd google the words and George came up.  Here's the quotation that came with it.

_"It is not that anyone imagines the law to be just. Everyone knows that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. But no one accepts the implications of this, everyone takes it for granted that the law, such as it is, will be respected, and feels a sense of outrage when it is not. Remarks like ‘They can’t run me in; I haven’t done anything wrong’, or ’They can’t do that; it’s against the law’, are part of the atmosphere of England...Everyone believes in his heart that the law can be, ought to be, and, on the whole, will be impartially administered. The totalitarian idea that there is no such thing as law, there is only power, has never taken root. Even the intelligentsia have only accepted it in theory.

An illusion can become a half-truth, a mask can alter the expression of a face. The familiar arguments to the effect that democracy is ‘just the same as’ or ‘just as bad as’ totalitarianism never take account of this fact. All such arguments boil down to saying that half a loaf is the same as no bread. In England such concepts as justice, liberty and objective truth are still believed in. They may be illusions, but they are very powerful illusions. The belief in them influences conduct, national life is different because of them. In proof of which, look about you. Where are the rubber truncheons, where is the castor oil? The sword is still in the scabbard, and while it stays there corruption cannot go beyond a certain point. "_


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## n brown (Nov 14, 2014)

i worry . i worry that freedoms we take for granted now are being taken away by people who demand rules they can live by. it's happening all the time and it's nibbling away at our lifestyles. 
sometimes,leaving well alone is an excellent idea ! we live in one of the best and most free countries i know of ,and some people are asking for restrictions on those freedoms
eg , it used to be very straightforward to build a camper and change the V5,now,thanks to the unsure,who needed to have it all spelled out for them,we have a long list of requirements 
if councils can appease a few moaners by sticking up some hookey signs,how about letting them all save face and just carry on doing what we're doing ? push them,they're a big gang,they'll win !
you're a wild camper-stop being so straight !


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

What I asked was this:  "Where is the point at which you will say "no further" to corruption?

The abuse does not provide an answer.  If you have no answer then that has value to me too.

Tom


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## Tbear (Nov 14, 2014)

Hi Maureenandtom,

When I am at home I am happy to politely email local councilors, the Police Commissioner, my local MP, etc but when I am away in the motorhome, the last thing I want is hassle and conflict so if I am asked politely by a public servant to move (never happened yet) on I will. Does this really make me smug or spineless as your post suggests. If so I will just have to live with it as I have no intention of changing. I have met a few of the local people in authority. They are mainly normal intelligent folk (parking dept may be an exception) who respond well to a reasoned  argument. Winding them up puts them off for years to come. I suspect that parking's tunnel visioned one track mind is the result of having to constantly deal with the likes of a strange person.

Richard


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## gholt417 (Nov 14, 2014)

I always find it hard to be involved when OPs comments involve aggressive statements that include 'smugness' and 'self-righteousness' or the disingenuous line about admiring 'saintliness'. 

I think by opening the post with these comments polarises members with the intention of maybe creating offence and then a keyboard argument.

I am not sure where the 'corruption' argument comes in!  Maybe if it was replaced with 'incompetent' when relating to non enforceable signage. But, I can't really see local government officers being given backhanders from local campsite owners, I mean there isn't really the money involved is there.

Sorry, but the meek part just made me think about the Life of Brian (blessed are the cheesemakers)

Graham


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

Good point about "corruption", gholt. I was about to make a similar point myself when I read yours. It seems to me that those who use terms such as "corruption" are asking "when did you stop beating your wife" type questions. None of us would support corruption but it is silly and counterproductive to use conspiracy theory when the likelihood is more that it is councillors and officers wanting an easy life at best and laziness at worse. 

As wildcampers we need to be discreet, polite and careful with the environment. The strange person and his small band are none of those things and do us no good at all.


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## Sharon the Cat (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> As wildcampers we need to be discreet, polite and careful with the environment.



'nuff said


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## caledonia (Nov 14, 2014)

I personally agree with NB signs. I stay not to far and I felt very angry to see the same vans parked there every weekend leaving no space for the day trippers. It's a residential area not a wild camp. Scotland is the best place to wild camp and interfering campaigners will do us no favours.


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## maingate (Nov 14, 2014)

When the local busybody told me that 'we don't want your sort round here'. I asked him what he had against a retired Engineer and Nurse.

He seemed to struggle with a reply and walked away. 

Another one (who later became a Local Councillor) thought we waited until it was dark to crap in the bushes. When I invited her in to the van, she was quite amazed at the onboard facilities.

Many of the people that might cause you problems need educating, not vilifying. Although in the case of seaside resorts, I believe there are some dubious decisions made for self interest.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 14, 2014)

well we haven't a van nowadays but when we did we used to get away every weekend and also lived in it for nigh on 2 years . most of the time we used to get as far away as posible from civilization , we would never dream of staying for a few nights on some stinky fish and chip paper strewn seaside front .i couldent think of anything worse . we used to clear off into the wilds to park up at night , that way it minimised coming across any stupid boy racer, and manybody that hated motor homes . it also limited finding no overnighting notices aswell . another thing that seems to cause problems is everybody giving info out about nice places to stay ,once that happens everybody and there granny turns up . there are still places we used to stay down here  that  never get a van staying on them there quiet and out of the way because nobody knows them . and i am not going to reveal them either .

the only place we used to stay that seemed to attract a few vans was mumbles realy but the locals and council were very friendly and welcomed vans .

we know you have to be a full member to access the poi files on here ,but all that info is available to non members too . as i found out last year talking to some van owners in porthcawl .


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

mandrake said:


> well we haven't a van nowadays but when we did we used to get away every weekend and also lived in it for nigh on 2 years . most of the time we used to get as far away as posible from civilization , we would never dream of staying for a few nights on some stinky fish and chip paper strewn seaside front .i couldent think of anything worse . we used to clear off into the wilds to park up at night , that way it minimised coming across any stupid boy racer, and manybody that hated motor homes . it also limited finding no overnighting notices aswell . another thing that seems to cause problems is everybody giving info out about nice places to stay ,once that happens everybody and there granny turns up . there are still places we used to stay down here  that  never get a van staying on them there quiet and out of the way because nobody knows them . and i am not going to reveal them either .
> 
> the only place we used to stay that seemed to attract a few vans was mumbles realy but the locals and council were very friendly and welcomed vans .
> 
> we know you have to be a full member to access the poi files on here ,but all that info is available to non members too . as i found out last year talking to some van owners in porthcawl .



When I first started contributing locations to this site, I thought it was good to share. On the whole, I still do but I have to say that, because of the activities of a few, it might not be as good an idea as I once thought. The ultimate dilemma for a wildcamper - do others always share good spots they find or not? In other words, is a website such as this really a good idea (sorry, Phil!).


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> When I first started contributing locations to this site, I thought it was good to share. On the whole, I still do but I have to say that, because of the activities of a few, it might not be as good an idea as I once thought. The ultimate dilemma for a wildcamper - do others always share good spots they find or not? In other words, is a website such as this really a good idea (sorry, Phil!).



well this web site is good and yes lots of good info is given on here .ie help with problems and the general day to day banter . but i am not a fan of the ,ive found a good place to stay so i will let everybody know about it , for two reasons it gets into the general public domain and another is it wont be a nice quiet place next time you go cos it will be full .  wild camping places are quite evedent to people with eyes  because if you found it then maybe someone else looking specifically for a place will probably see it as well if they dont then tough .  we wild camped since the seventies and before and never used a camp site exept when we had the caravans . and never had problems finding a overnight spot .


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## Val54 (Nov 14, 2014)

Agree with most of the above except that not all minority interests are necessarily harmless as you imply. There are plenty of outdoor pursuits that someone (not necessarily a nimby) will view as interfering with their right to enjoy their surroundings. As always a decision on whether the statutory authority should take action against the minority interest is one of balance. Most of the cases that impact on wild camping arise from complaints to local councillors who then seek to protect their electorate to secure their own futures/popularity. We may not agree with or like the end result but this is our democratic process at work, if you want to make a difference, get elected! Of course we never get to hear of the cases where the local officials tell the local councillor that his proposed actions are illegal and therefore the "no overnight parking" signs don't appear!!
Dave


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## izwozral (Nov 14, 2014)

I couldn't have put it so eloquently but I wholeheartedly agree with this post.


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

You are absolutely correct but my point is that you have to choose your fights carefully or else you just make yourself look silly. In the scheme of things, a council putting up a sign on the cheap that it hopes will limit wildcamping is very low down the list of things to get worried about and to start claiming "corruption" simply devalues the fight against much more serious happenings.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

gholt417 said:


> I always find it hard to be involved when OPs comments involve aggressive statements that include 'smugness' and 'self-righteousness' or the disingenuous line about admiring 'saintliness'.
> 
> I think by opening the post with these comments polarises members with the intention of maybe creating offence and then a keyboard argument.
> 
> ...



You will always be able to pick holes in someone's language and I was ready to withdraw the corruption word but, sorry, I do think some sound smug and self-righteous.

So I looked at my original post and I didn't say corruption, I said this:




maureenandtom said:


> ...
> 
> Where would you draw the line?   Where would you make authority obey the rules?
> 
> ...



The corruption quote came from George Orwell.

But whatever words you are happy with - authorities, in our chosen activity, do not obey the rules laid down for them.   Since not all of us agree with some rules, some of us are happy to see them broken.  So my, reasonable, question is;  "Where would you draw the line?"

Recent, very recent, history is filled with public figures putting on a mournful face and saying,  "... and I'm sorry, I'm very very sorry" and then refusing to accept responsibility.  We have the recent case of a (at the time) police commissisoner talking of neglect of duty while in (prior) council public service saying, "I'm sorry, I'm very, very sorry.  Of course I accept collective resposibility but I do not accept personal responsibility and I will not resign."   Fortunately, he was eventually made to see sense and he did resign.

Somebody drew the line of acceptance at him.   Where would we draw the line.  So far as I can see, many would never draw any line in the sand.  Authority has power.  We will ignore the law in the face of that power, is that correct?


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> What I asked was this:  "Where is the point at which you will say "no further" to corruption?
> 
> The abuse does not provide an answer.  If you have no answer then that has value to me too.
> 
> Tom



No - the "corruption" quote came from here.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> No - the "corruption" quote came from here.



Keep up boy.

The quote came from here:



maureenandtom said:


> Without knowing - I'd plagiarised the thread title.
> 
> It comes from George Orwell.
> 
> ...



There are some things about you I admire.  You are a poliician who lies convincingly.


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## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

When you stand up against evil, how quickly you find you stand alone.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 14, 2014)

why worry about these no overnight parking notices . as it says no overnighting it seems as if someone in authority would have to catch you and officialy caution you and then prosecute you giving you a notice of intended prosicution at the time you committed that offense ans seeing as all the officers charged with that job will be tucked up asleep at that time then i think you should be ok taking no notice of the notice . also the police have little to do with parking rules nowadays only being able to ticket a driver for obstruction nowadays ,they dont even give tickets for parking on double yellows nowadays .  i must honnestly say i have never ever taken notice of a no overnighting notice in my wildcamping life and when we do get another van we will still take no notice of them .


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Keep up boy.
> 
> 
> There are some things about you I admire.  You are a poliician who lies convincingly.



Amazing! You clearly use the word "corruption" in the post I referred to and then you try to say you didn't - and on top of that you say I lie convincingly! What an absolute idiot you are.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Amazing! You clearly use the word "corruption" in the post I referred to and then you try to say you didn't - and on top of that you say I lie convincingly! What an absolute idiot you are.



Admire, admire!   I quote a quote and you attribute the quote to me.

As a politician, are your sorry, very very, sorry?


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> You will always be able to pick holes in someone's language and I was ready to withdraw the corruption word but, sorry, I do think some sound smug and self-righteous.
> 
> So I looked at my original post and I didn't say corruption, I said this:
> 
> ...



Is there no point at which some of us would say, "You have gone far enough.  This far and no further.  I will try to stop you"


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 14, 2014)

i dont see what all the fuss is about ,corruption is at all levels nowadays ,even joe public is corrupt in some ways . i myself ferry people i know in my car ,for a price it covers my diesel dosent it .. i used to have one lad that lived opposite me pay me to take him to work on a weekend . as taxi fares were outrageous . saved him money and made me money .


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 14, 2014)




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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Admire, admire!   I quote a quote and you attribute the quote to me.
> 
> As a politician, are your sorry, very very, sorry?



That must rank as one of the biggest cases of denial ever on this forum! Your words are there for all to see in post no 19 "where is the point at which you will say no further to corruption?". Your words, not Orwell's.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Recent, very recent, history is filled with public figures putting on a mournful face and saying,  "... and I'm sorry, I'm very very sorry" and then refusing to accept responsibility.  We have the recent case of a (at the time) police commissisoner talking of neglect of duty while in (prior) council public service saying, "I'm sorry, I'm very, very sorry.  Of course I accept collective resposibility but I do not accept personal responsibility and I will not resign."   Fortunately, he was eventually made to see sense and he did resign.
> 
> Somebody drew the line of acceptance at him.   Where would we draw the line.  So far as I can see, many would never draw any line in the sand.  Authority has power.  We will ignore the law in the face of that power, is that correct?



Rotherham child abuse scandal: Police commissioner Shaun Wright resigns - but takes no responsibility - Crime - UK - The Independent


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## gholt417 (Nov 14, 2014)

My point to you 'tomandmaureen' is that in your posts you are talking about corruption and it's too powerful a word/phrase/point in my opinion. I can't see it as corruption if officers are reacting to a single winger (as someone has stated). Unless they have made the decision for illegal personal gain. Now if you say that they are incompetent jobworths, I can't see many disagreeing.

Graham


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

Well, I'll say this for you, Tom - you certainly are amusing! Now, having talked yourself into knots, you attempt to divert the thread from overnight parking into child abuse! I am beginning to seriously doubt your sanity :lol-049:


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

Wooie1958 said:


> View attachment 26102



Thank you.  I was close to quitting.

I'd like to make a small personal request.   My views on the limits of auithority's power are firmly held.   Is it too much to ask that you keep personal attacks (idiot, etc) to yourself on this matter.

I'm trying to find, in the week that contains one of our most emotionally moveng days --- I'm  trying to find how much latitude we will give to public authorities in their duties.    So far, I think it is fair to say that no one has answered this question.

It's only a small request.  Start another thread in which to abuse me.   In this one, I have put a question.


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

I don't usually use personal abuse and maybe I have gone too far on this thread but I regard you as a calculating and devious man who is not averse to issuing insults yourself (not only towards me). Your attempt to garner sympathy now by using emotive phrases such as "the week that contains one of most emotionally moving days" is, in my opinion, very low - and completely over the top in a discussion about no parking signs!


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 14, 2014)

i agree there is no excuse for calling someone an idiot or personally attacking another member . it just shows how ignorant the attacker is .


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

gholt417 said:


> My point to you 'tomandmaureen' is that in your posts you are talking about corruption and it's too powerful a word/phrase/point in my opinion. I can't see it as corruption if officers are reacting to a single winger (as someone has stated). Unless they have made the decision for illegal personal gain. Now if you say that they are incompetent jobworths, I can't see many disagreeing.
> 
> Graham



Yes, I understand.   Not always, but often, there are people in positions of power who have something to gain from the repression of our freedoms.  So far as I know there have been no prosecutions for corruption in this area.   I think you're talking about Lincolnshire, yes?   There were rumours, no more than that, that a neigbouring golf course was to be sold and turned into a caravan park.  Huttoft Car Terrace stood to become a very valuable private car park if the rumours turned out to be true.   They are rumours.  No more.  I stress that.

In Scarborough, the cabinet holder (at the time) with responsibility for our matters owns caravan sites.   But we must be fair - he handed over Cabinet responsibilities to a colleague when *our *matters came to the fore.   The Chairman of the Traffic Group also in Scarborough) resigned when he was accused of making £5million out of mineral rights to land he owns (this was a planning matter - so far as I know motorhomes were not involved).  That the original cabinet holder continued to influence matters cannot be proved.   The £5million councillor resigned and the investigation stopped.

Where would you draw the line in the sand?  Would you draw a line in the sand?


----------



## izwozral (Nov 14, 2014)

mandrake said:


> i dont see what all the fuss is about ,corruption is at all levels nowadays ,even joe public is corrupt in some ways . i myself ferry people i know in my car ,for a price it covers my diesel dosent it .. i used to have one lad that lived opposite me pay me to take him to work on a weekend . as taxi fares were outrageous . saved him money and made me money .



Thats not corruption, that's free enterprise. Providing a public service too, good on ya!


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> I don't usually use personal abuse and maybe I have gone too far on this thread but I regard you as a calculating and devious man who is not averse to issuing insults yourself (not only towards me). Your attempt to garner sympathy now by using emotive phrases such as "the week that contains one of most emotionally moving days" is, in my opinion, very low - and completely over the top in a discussion about no parking signs!



No, it's not over the top.  It's relevant.


----------



## Val54 (Nov 14, 2014)

Val54 said:


> Perhaps the lack of responses from our wider community reflects the fact that most of us are just quietly getting on with enjoying our hobby in our own way without slagging each other off.
> Dave



I rest my case 

As to the "question", I'm sorry but it is just too wide, every case will be different, mitigating circumstances etc etc, but yes there will always be a line in the sand point, it's just that it won't be the same for everyone.
Dave


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## izwozral (Nov 14, 2014)

*Does anyone think this thread should end now?*

Title says it all: It is just becoming a slanging match>

IMHO.


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

Val54 said:


> I rest my case
> 
> As to the "question", I'm sorry but it is just too wide, every case will be different, mitigating circumstances etc etc, but yes there will always be a line in the sand point, it's just that it won't be the same for everyone.
> Dave



But, somewhere there is a line,yes?  

Martin Niemoller

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

izwozral said:


> Title says it all: It is just becoming a slanging match>
> 
> IMHO.



Ok.

I think the question has been answered.


----------



## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> No, it's not over the top.  It's relevant.



I refer back to something I said earlier - by using words such as corruption (and to bring Niemoller into it as well!) about no parking signs means that nobody takes you seriously when you start complaining about serious corruption. We need to be much more measured in what we say - and to now involve Remembrance Day in the discussion is, in my view, completely over the top. When I read it, it brought to mind that Hancock sketch "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?" If I were one of the council officials you were having a go at, that is how I would view you. Your approach does us no good at all.


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Nov 14, 2014)

I full time and have been since 2009. Currently overwintering in Spain.  I Wild Park most of the time I am in the UK, although CLs are used from time to time to service.   This does not prevent me from being active within The Motorhome Tourism Organisation using FOI requests to determine the position for any of us to park (day or night) our motorhomes. This information needs to be kept up to date and accurate for the map we publish on the website to be of any use.   I have along with Tom taken an active part in The Motorhome Tourism Organisation.  We do not seek to take an aggressive attitude with the authorities, we do however seek the facts.  

Council representatives and council employees are bound by the Nolan Principles.



> *Selflessness* – Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest. They should not do so in order to gain financial or other benefits for themselves, their family or their friends.
> *Integrity* – Holders of public office should not place themselves under any financial or other obligation to outside individuals or organisations that might seek to influence them in the performance of their official duties.
> *Objectivity* – In carrying out public business, including making public appointments, awarding contracts, or recommending individuals for rewards and benefits, holders of public office should make choices on merit.
> *Accountability* – Holders of public office are accountable for their decisions and actions to the public and must submit themselves to whatever scrutiny is appropriate to their office.
> ...



These FOI requests have led to many comments from local authority employees and councillors that are far from those contained in the Traffic Regulation Orders they claim to be quoting.  Many personal opinions have been voiced rather than facts.  Where we have found councils helpful we have commented on TMCTO we also list those unhelpful councils.   One common quote is we don't allow motorhomes/campervans to use our car parks, whereas the TRO states no trailers or no camping.

Erecting unauthorised signs does not fit well in the principals listed above. Particularly Selflessness, Openness and Honesty.

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (commonly abbreviated to TSRGD) is the law that sets out the design and conditions of use of official traffic signs that can be lawfully placed on or near roads in England, Scotland, Wales, and the Isle of Man.  The signs a North Berwick do not comply.


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## Val54 (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> But, somewhere there is a line,yes?
> 
> Martin Niemoller
> 
> ...



Agreed, the trick is knowing when to speak out so that your voice is heard and listened to by those who can make a difference to what you want to achieve. Not easy but then that is not an excuse for not trying if the circumstances are right.
Dave


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> I refer back to something I said earlier - by using words such as corruption (and to bring Niemoller into it as well!) about no parking signs means that nobody takes you seriously when you start complaining about serious corruption. We need to be much more measured in what we say - and to now involve Remembrance Day in the discussion is, in my view, completely over the top. When I read it, it brought to mind that Hancock sketch "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?" If I were one of the council officials you were having a go at, that is how I would view you. Your approach does us no good at all.




Thank you, I didn't know she had been a real live woman - who is Hancock?  

Niemoller was right.  We ignore abuse of power too easily.  His quotation should be remembered.

You're mistaken about Remembrance Day being over the top.   It is relevant. My wars were all about stopping the abuse of power.  I think wars before my time were for the same reason.  It is relevant.

Edit:  and since my time too


----------



## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you, I didn't know she had been a real live woman - who is Hancock?
> 
> Niemoller was right.  We ignore abuse of power too easily.  His quotation should be remembered.
> 
> ...



My point is, as you very well know, that to use Niemoller and Remembrance Day in a campaign against parking signs is way over the top and devalues anything you might say. And you also know who Hancock was.


----------



## Robmac (Nov 14, 2014)

I go camping, motorhoming and boating. All of these I do as an escape from officialdom. So far I have managed to avoid officialdom in all of these activities.

In my opinion, if we continue to antagonise the authorities that be, and the general public, we just make ourselves look like an arrogant minority stamping our feet, and we will get little sympathy.


----------



## runnach (Nov 14, 2014)

Corruption I believe is the wrong term in the respect of a lot of council policy and decisions, misguided or illinformed may be more appropriate.

There are scrutiny panels, how effective they are in terms of financial corruption I have no idea, albeit a mechanism to prevent impropriety.

A problem a lot of councils face is those on committees are often illequiped to make an informed decision. My uncle years ago was a city councillor and County councillor in Nottingham. Two committees he was part of were public highways and Fire service. As an ex fireman no clues as to which he felt he could contribute more ?

The Huttoft /golf club situation whilst a rumour may have credibility, for people can be influenced in their social circles. That doesn't necessarily mean corrupt but influenced.

By pointing out to a council and often in a high profile way that there are a few dubious signs , we run the risk that they take stock and ensure there is no question.

It is this point really why I stated you don't act for me, I think it is a flawed approach almost inviting officialdom.

There is a lot to be said for keeping ones noggin below the parapet.

Channa


----------



## iampatman (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you.  I was close to quitting.
> 
> I'd like to make a small personal request.   My views on the limits of auithority's power are firmly held.   Is it too much to ask that you keep personal attacks (idiot, etc) to yourself on this matter.
> 
> ...



I thought I knew what this thread was about, now I'm not too sure. 
I'm not sure what you mean by "how much latitude we will give to public authorities in their duties". Surely just about everyone has a degree of latitude or flexibility in carrying out their duties whether they be in the private or public sector. Are you just moaning about a particular decision you don't like? Are you trying to organise a campaign? Surely the no parking sign issue has been done to death on here; are they legal/enforceable etc, etc...... If I come across one I either ignore it or move on as I suspect most folk do on here. I don't view them as a conspiracy and whilst it might be laziness on my part I consider life's too short to challenge them. Anyway, good luck with whatever you're trying to achieve, I just don't know what it is. 
Pat


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

iampatman said:


> I thought I knew what this thread was about, now I'm not too sure.
> I'm not sure what you mean by "how much latitude we will give to public authorities in their duties". Surely just about everyone has a degree of latitude or flexibility in carrying out their duties whether they be in the private or public sector. Are you just moaning about a particular decision you don't like? Are you trying to organise a campaign? Surely the no parking sign issue has been done to death on here; are they legal/enforceable etc, etc...... If I come across one I either ignore it or move on as I suspect most folk do on here. I don't view them as a conspiracy and whilst it might be laziness on my part I consider life's too short to challenge them. Anyway, good luck with whatever you're trying to achieve, I just don't know what it is.
> Pat



It's difficult for me to be more precise.  It's my view that local authorities all over the country are, unlawfully, discriminating against the parking of motor homes.   It's my view, I stress that.  It is not the view of those who have held power.

The act unlawfully by erecting unenforceable signs.   I believe, some councils (and the number of such councils is increasing) ignore the rules laid down for them.   I want that to stop.

There is something some here will find difficult to believe.  If a traffic rule or byelaw is enacted within the rules laid down for councils then I have no complaint about it.  I'll amend that;  I may whinge about it but I can have no complaint.   All I want is that councils obey the rules.  

Here we have an increasing number of councils breaking the law to make the law.   That's my line in the sand.   If a council has not been given authority to do such and such a thing then it can not do such and such a thing.

I'm not Niemoller.  I'm a motorhomer and that is my line in the sand.


----------



## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> It's difficult for me to be more precise.  It's my view that local authorities all over the country are, unlawfully, discriminating against the parking of motor homes.   It's my view, I stress that.  It is not the view of those who have held power.
> 
> The act unlawfully by erecting unenforceable signs.   I believe, some councils (and the number of such councils is increasing) ignore the rules laid down for them.   I want that to stop.
> 
> ...



Thank you for a more measured approach. But I have to make two points:

1. You are still referring to councils breaking the law. If that were true, please supply details of prosecutions. 

2. The campaign you support claims that a particular by-law is illegal and invited prosecution in order to make their case. When it came to court, the first two pleaded guilty - thus giving credence to the by-law they were claiming was illegal. What on earth was achieved by that?

I agree with channa and others that you draw unwelcome attention to us and make it more, not less, likely that orders will be passed and fines imposed.


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## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

That’s the trouble living in a land of peasants, people have been knocked back so many times trying to do the right thing, that in the end they want others to fight for them, that’s how the masses are controlled by the few.


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## runnach (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> It's difficult for me to be more precise.  It's my view that local authorities all over the country are, unlawfully, discriminating against the parking of motor homes.   It's my view, I stress that.  It is not the view of those who have held power.
> 
> The act unlawfully by erecting unenforceable signs.   I believe, some councils (and the number of such councils is increasing) ignore the rules laid down for them.   I want that to stop.
> 
> ...



Far more sensibly written Tom than your original post , and I do get your point.

But all this is nothing new councils ( and private), How many times do we see a sign in a car park along the lines of " The council will accept no liability for any injury or damage caused to persons or vehicles and property "  ?

Most people are aware that legally you cannot absolve yourself from negligence , therefore the signs whilst perhaps not illegal are certainly not correct. moreso not correct in legal interpretation.

That sign effects us all not just motorhomers, So then I suppose a valid question is are we as motorhomers really being victimised in someway? ...Is it really a worthwhile activity challenging when at the end of the day probably 95 percent of signage has no teeth ?

Channa


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Thank you for a more measured approach. But I have to make two points:
> 
> 1. You are still referring to councils breaking the law. If that were true, please supply details of prosecutions.
> 
> ...



I'll try.   I suspect I will not succeed.

1.   If the council has not been given authority to do such and such a thing it acts unlawfully if it does such and such a thing.  It has acted illegally.

As to prosecutions, I can't answer.  But my mind has been drawn to Dame Shirley Porter.  Her council acted unlawfully and, if I remember correctly, she and a number of councillors (5 in total l think) in rare moment of personal responsibility were surcharged £47million.  Dame Shirley first negotiated the surcharge (fine) down to £12million and then avoided her share by emigrating to Israel and transferring her assets to her family.

2.    Odd that it may seem, I probably have little more information than you as to why one (not both) accused pleaded guilty.  I think he had five charges against him;  I think the Magistrates dismissed three and accepted his plea of guilty on two fining him a minimial amount.   The campaign (!) is not ours alone.  Other groups are also involved.  One such group are sea anglers who achieved some success with their part of the campaign - they were given permits exempting them from the byelaw.   The defence involves these permits, I think.   The council claiming the council's own issue of permit was invalid.     

I'm sorry about the unwelcome attention .... but my sorrow is a politician's sorrow.   It is not genuine.  Just words.  I hope that the rejection of the two byelaws in Scotland will lead to councils not attempting to unlawfully enact more of them.  It's my view that you can challenge a law before its enacted during a compulsory public consultation.  But if, in this example, the council ignores the requirement for public consultation then the only challenge possible comes later.  The council having not obeyed the rules about consulting the public.   Or perhaps they use grounds which are invalid or for offences which should be dealt with in another way.  Or perhaps ... but it goes on an on.

If a council has not been given authority to do such and such a thing it can not do such and such a thing.


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## Borderland (Nov 14, 2014)

As a newbie to this forum I am disappointed at the way members attack each other for making their views known. Yes it is right to comment on and make your own statements on things you disagree with but does it have to turn into a slanging match.
How about if each poster made one last comment and then draw a line under it as this sort of banter does no good at all for the reputation of the what is supposed to be a "Fun & Friendly Motorhome Community".


----------



## Val54 (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> It's difficult for me to be more precise.  It's my view that local authorities all over the country are, unlawfully, discriminating against the parking of motor homes.   It's my view, I stress that.  It is not the view of those who have held power.
> 
> The act unlawfully by erecting unenforceable signs.   I believe, some councils (and the number of such councils is increasing) ignore the rules laid down for them.   I want that to stop.
> 
> ...



Yes some Councils appear to be "winging it" with regard to procedures, and no, you will not find any prosecutions for that sort of action. Primarily because who is going to bring an action against them? You would need to go through judicial review which would be very expensive. The remedy set up by central government is the local government ombudsman which is free and available to anyone who thinks there is maladministration by a local authority. The issue then is if you are successful in proving maladministration that case gets published and circulated to every local authority. Every local authority legal officer will recommend a full review of their procedures and actions. Whether that leads to unauthorised signs being removed or a lot more authorities going for TRO's will depend on priorities and resources within that authority. At the moment I suspect most local authorities have more to worry about than a few "no parking" signs.
Dave


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## shamrock (Nov 14, 2014)

.


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> I'll try.   I suspect I will not succeed.
> 
> 1.   If the council has not been given authority to do such and such a thing it acts unlawfully if it does such and such a thing.  It has acted illegally.
> 
> ...




No. I don't think you have succeeded. 

1. Let me put it this way. If I put a "Beware of the Dog" notice in my window and it turns out that I do not have a dog, I have tried to give a certain impression to deter burglars BUT I have NOT acted illegally. There is a world of difference between having no legal backing and acting illegally. If a council had acted illegally then there would have been at least one prosecution (and your Shirley Porter case has nothing to do with what we are talking about - it was to do with housing, not parking!).

2. You don't understand the law do you? If the magistrates had, as you say, not accepted a guilty plea then there would have been a postponement prior to a trial. What I think you actually mean is either that they accepted the plea and gave a non-financial penalty or possibly dismissed three charges prior to accepting the guilty plea on the other two. But the whole point is that a plea of guilty (even one of them!) shows acceptance of the by-law which your campaign was supposed to believe was illegal! So what was the point of it all?


----------



## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

Borderland said:


> As a newbie to this forum I am disappointed at the way members attack each other for making their views known. Yes it is right to comment on and make your own statements on things you disagree with but does it have to turn into a slanging match.
> How about if each poster made one last comment and then draw a line under it as this sort of banter does no good at all for the reputation of the what is supposed to be a "Fun & Friendly Motorhome Community".



Hi

I have no problem with others having different views to me but (and this is possibly the reason why I have gone maybe a bit over the top at times here) this is not simply a case of differing opinions. Tom and a few others (under the leadership of someone who was banned from this forum after threatening legal action) are not just expressing a view; they are taking part in campaigns which set up the backs of a number of councils when many (most?) of us believe that a polite and positive approach would best represent us. In other words, they are making it difficult for those of us who just want to wildcamp discretely and not annoy local people. If their actions didn't potentially affect my lifestyle, I wouldn't mind what they thought.


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> No. I don't think you have succeeded.
> 
> 1. Let me put it this way. If I put a "Beware of the Dog" notice in my window and it turns out that I do not have a dog, I have tried to give a certain impression to deter burglars BUT I have NOT acted illegally. There is a world of difference between having no legal backing and acting illegally. If a council had acted illegally then there would have been at least one prosecution (and your Shirley Porter case has nothing to do with what we are talking about - it was to do with housing, not parking!).
> 
> 2. You don't understand the law do you? If the magistrates had, as you say, not accepted a guilty plea then there would have been a postponement prior to a trial. What I think you actually mean is either that they accepted the plea and gave a non-financial penalty or possibly dismissed three charges prior to accepting the guilty plea on the other two. But the whole point is that a plea of guilty (even one of them!) shows acceptance of the by-law which your campaign was supposed to believe was illegal! So what was the point of it all?



"_Let me put it this way. If I put a "Beware of the Dog" notice in my window and it turns out that I do not have a dog, I have tried to give a certain impression to deter burglars BUT I have NOT acted illegally._"


That's true.  You haven't.   But since Lord Justice Camden, councils do not have the same freedom.   If the council has not been givden the authority to act, it may not act.   That is an inviolable rule - Lord Justice Camden ruled that it is so.

_"...your Shirley Porter case has nothing to do with what we are talking about - it was to do with housing," _  It has everything to do with what I'M talking about.  Abuse of power.

I'm sorry John, your paragraph 2 makes no sense to me.   Genuine sorrow this time. This is a matter between the court and the accused.

Then perhaps you'd permit the abuse of power in matters of parking but you'd draw the line on matters of housing?   Thank you, I can accept that.

EDIT: Rather then insert into a new post.

From a Guide to Councillors:

*: “Local councils are local government bodies, and can only do that which they are empowered to do by law. Anything else, no matter how apparently justifiable or useful, will be beyond the powers of the council (‘ultra vires’)”*


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## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

Come on lads time to call it a day, otherwise Phil will have to get the "Paddle of rebuke out."


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> "_Let me put it this way. If I put a "Beware of the Dog" notice in my window and it turns out that I do not have a dog, I have tried to give a certain impression to deter burglars BUT I have NOT acted illegally._"
> 
> That's true.  You haven't.   But since Lord Justice Camden, councils do not have the same freedom.   If the council has not been givden the authority to act, it may not act.   That is an inviolable rule - Lord Justice Camden ruled that it is so.
> 
> ...



Sorry, mate, it is true that councils may not assume powers to do things that they are not in law permitted to do.....................but they are permitted to manage car parks and restrict parking. :wave: 

And, since we are talking about parking overnight, your example of Shirley Porter IS completely irrelevant. You made the erroneous point that deterrent signs are illegal; I asked for evidence of prosecutions; you have so far failed to provide one. I believe that councils should act properly and legally in ALL matters but this debate is specifically about parking - so I am still waiting for your answer.

Finally, it does not surprise me that you cannot make sense of my final paragraph. It is a pity that you have not allowed your ignorance of the law to stop you taking part in pointless challenges to council authority (and, once again, I am talking specifically about the strangeperson's overnight parking campaign!).


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## Borderland (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> I have no problem with others having different views to me but (and this is possibly the reason why I have gone maybe a bit over the top at times here) this is not simply a case of differing opinions. Tom and a few others (under the leadership of someone who was banned from this forum after threatening legal action) are not just expressing a view; they are taking part in campaigns which set up the backs of a number of councils when many (most?) of us believe that a polite and positive approach would best represent us. In other words, they are making it difficult for those of us who just want to wildcamp discretely and not annoy local people. If their actions didn't potentially affect my lifestyle, I wouldn't mind what they thought.



Yes, fair comment. As a new member I am not aware of any past history regarding disputes.


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## Tbear (Nov 14, 2014)

izwozral said:


> Title says it all: It is just becoming a slanging match>
> 
> IMHO.



Think you wasted your time typing that one 

Anyone fancy a chat about motorhoming?

Richard


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## Tezza33 (Nov 14, 2014)

Tbear said:


> Think you wasted your time typing that one
> 
> Anyone fancy a chat about motorhoming?
> 
> Richard


I am sure it is the wrong forum for that Richard


----------



## Tbear (Nov 14, 2014)

In my dreams I sort it all out with a Baseball Bat. In reality I abhor violence but it is nice to dream sometimes 

Richard


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## izwozral (Nov 14, 2014)

Tbear said:


> Think you wasted your time typing that one
> 
> Anyone fancy a chat about motorhoming?
> 
> Richard



Sure did didn't I, although the tone isn't quite so gladiatorial.


----------



## Tezza33 (Nov 14, 2014)

izwozral said:


> Sure did didn't I, although the tone isn't quite so gladiatorial.


You do realise on this forum you can be accused of being racist by saying something is 'so gladiatorial', there will be somebody jumping to the defence of Gladiators any moment now


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## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

The man named by the Romans as Spartacus, fought for the right of slaves to be free men and if necessary die free men.
We have it so easy today.


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## podge1140 (Nov 14, 2014)

*power v law*

I really can't figure out what is the point of this post, who is the power and who is the law? it sounds like a statement from a conspiracy web site, I agree with the concept of wild camping, but not if you park where you are not wanted, why should any person have to put up with a motorhome plunked out side their house, it's their home and environment and a point was made that one seems to attract more and I have seen cases of this and Local Councils will not take the chance of a build up causing a problem, as is caused by the Irish Tinkers.


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

invalid said:


> The man named by the Romans as Spartacus, fought for the right of slaves to be free men and if necessary die free men.
> We have it so easy today.



Think there was more at stake at the time than where to park your chariot overnight!


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

podge1140 said:


> I really can't figure out what is the point of this post, who is the power and who is the law? it sounds like a statement from a conspiracy web site, I agree with the concept of wild camping, but not if you park where you are not wanted, why should any person have to put up with a motorhome plunked out side their house, it's their home and environment and a point was made that one seems to attract more and I have seen cases of this and Local Councils will not take the chance of a build up causing a problem, as is caused by the Irish Tinkers.



And that is just about right - there are, unfortunately, a few loud people who see conspiracy in everything and they are a pain in the proverbial for the rest of us.


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## maingate (Nov 14, 2014)

invalid said:


> The man named by the Romans as Spartacus, fought for the right of slaves to be free men and if necessary die free men.
> We have it so easy today.



I'm Spartacus.


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## maxi77 (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you, John.   I'll put you down firmly on the side of power then.
> 
> Any other views?  Anyone on the side of law and order?



I wouldnot say that post was one which sided with power, rather some one wishing to avoid adding fuel to the fire. In general the ones who encourage local wrath are not people whom I would like to be camped with. As far as I can see there are an infinite variation in types of wild camper. At one end of the spectrum there are those who demand all services for no payment and have no consideration for other people at all. These are the ones who have the power to get motorhomes banned from the nice stops and enrage the ni,bies.


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## mark61 (Nov 14, 2014)

I'm Spartacus.


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## iampatman (Nov 14, 2014)

No I'M Spartacus.


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## Robmac (Nov 14, 2014)

I'm the Messiah, and so is my wife.


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## Kath (Nov 14, 2014)

Robmac said:


> I'm the Messiah, and so is my wife.



You're not the Messiah, you're a very naughty boy!


----------



## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

I know many on here are old enough to have been around at the same time as Spartacus, but I'm pretty sure none of you are Spartacus.


----------



## Tbear (Nov 14, 2014)

Yah! It was RobMac. Honest Guv!

Richard


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## Robmac (Nov 14, 2014)

Tbear said:


> Yah! It was RobMac. Honest Guv!
> 
> Richard



:mad1::mad1: Need a beer now Richard, to soothe me old bones!


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## Tezza33 (Nov 14, 2014)

Robmac said:


> :mad1::mad1: Need a beer now Richard, to soothe me old bones!


I have just poured myself a Leffe blonde (it is the only blonde I am allowed:angel into a Leffe glass and now the forum looks better, I only brought 8 boxes back but wish I had bought 80 View attachment 26105


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## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

Well, that's me told then.

All I wanted to know was where you would draw the line.  A line beyond which you would insist the council follow rules about making rules.    Some of the replies were almost filled with hatred.  At the question, I hope;  not at me.

I'd draw the line early.  In fact, zero tolerance.  The council does things right;  that's my line in the sand.

As we close.  Here's Councillor Davie justifying his byelaw.  In this YouTube video, he lies about the reason for the byelaw and he makes a statment which must be a hate crime.   I'd draw the line here.   I am offended and insulted by his entire interview.  Frankly, I'm surprised he has your support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ULjI6BsP7g 

Thank you for your attention.

Tom


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## Robmac (Nov 14, 2014)

On my recent trip to Lyons, I tried the Pelforth Brune. Very passable indeed.


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## Tbear (Nov 14, 2014)

One of my best memories of France. My first ever ice cold Leffe served by a very pretty young lady.

Richard


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## Tezza33 (Nov 14, 2014)

That is how I managed to acquire my glasses, I agree it tastes better with the special glass and that bottle is excellent


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## barryd (Nov 14, 2014)

Dammit!  The only thing more torturous that reading this thread is the fact that some of you are now drinking Leffe Blonde!!!  My favourite drink and off limits as I am stuffed to the gills with pain killers due to a knackered back.

Have some consideration will you!!!!!! :tongue:


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> As we close.  Here's Councillor Davie justifying his byelaw.  In this YouTube video, he lies about the reason for the byelaw and he makes a statment which must be a hate crime.   I'd draw the line here.   I am offended and insulted by his entire interview.  Frankly, I'm surprised he has your support.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ULjI6BsP7g
> 
> ...



You seem to misunderstand democracy (as well as the law). Nothing in it says that the reasons for actions have to be logical. All that has to happen is that the majority group get their way - logical or not. It is not a perfect system but, as Churchill said, its the best we've got. And if you don't like what the majority group say and do then you have every right to stand for election yourself. If you can persuade the electorate to vote for you then you get to choose what happens. It is not a question of whether or not he has our support; it is that he has been put in charge by democratic means.

But to get onto really controversial stuff - you can't beat a good rioja in my opinion!


----------



## maureenandtom (Nov 14, 2014)

John, usefully truncated my post.  Here it is again in full.

Well, that's me told then.

All I wanted to know was where you would draw the line. A line beyond which you would insist the council follow rules about making rules. Some of the replies were almost filled with hatred. At the question, I hope; not at me.

I'd draw the line early. In fact, zero tolerance. The council does things right; that's my line in the sand.

As we close. Here's Councillor Davie justifying his byelaw. In this YouTube video, he lies about the reason for the byelaw and he makes a statment which must be a hate crime. I'd draw the line here. I am offended and insulted by his entire interview. Frankly, I'm surprised he has your support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ULjI6BsP7g

Thank you for your attention.

Tom


----------



## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

maureenandtom said:


> John, usefully truncated my post.  Here it is again in full.
> 
> Well, that's me told then.
> 
> ...



The original post was there for all to see. Your re-posting of it is merely an excuse for trying to ignore the point I was making. It hasn't worked


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## antiqueman (Nov 14, 2014)

I got bored after page 5 got like a brown stuff firing cannon, but if parked legally I will and have a brew and sleep overnight if I wish, done it for years if folk moan I say go away I did not know it was a problem till I joined this site which I love in parts but I never seem to get bother as I have said before never been on a site since I got the shed and doubt I ever will unless there is a good band/party on. if I stick to the law councils should as well but lifes to short for me to argue sorry :goodnight:


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## invalid (Nov 14, 2014)

I look forward to trying the beer, unfortunately for the last 8 yes that's 8 years, I've not been able to drink because of all the pill (painkillers not larger) so now I'm off all painkillers and well on the road to mobility, I'll be able to try some falling down water. :cheers:


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

Hi

I am familiar with the 9% Leffe and cannot disagree with you. The Cabardes is not familiar to me (although I do appreciate the full-bodied wines of the Languedoc-Roussilon region) - it is now on my list of wines to sample in the future!


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## Val54 (Nov 14, 2014)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> I am familiar with the 9% Leffe and cannot disagree with you. The Cabardes is not familiar to me (although I do appreciate the full-bodied wines of the Languedoc-Roussilon region) - it is now on my list of wines to sample in the future!



Have'nt tried it either but Majestic stock one example :
https://www.majestic.co.uk/Chateau-de-Pennautier-zid09409

Dave


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## prioryi (Nov 14, 2014)

Try  Tripel Karmeliet (8.4%) ,Belgian beer , very nice and to easy  to drink

Tripel Karmeliet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## maingate (Nov 14, 2014)

prioryi said:


> Try  Tripel Karmeliet (8.4%) ,Belgian beer , very nice and to easy  to drink
> 
> Tripel Karmeliet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If I was in Belgium and thirsty, I would be drinking one of the Trappist beers. Some of them are 14% alcohol.  That is a cheap way to get p****d. :dance:


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## n brown (Nov 14, 2014)

my daughter works at a brewery and gets me St Stefanus belgian beer,starts off about 9% and keeps on maturing till you open it .lovely stuff !


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## John H (Nov 14, 2014)

Maybe this thread should be renamed: There is no Leffe; there is only Pelforth :dance:


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## Tezza33 (Nov 14, 2014)

At last it has become worth coming back to, we don't agree much on here but we cannot argue about beer View attachment 26111


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## sinner (Nov 15, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> At last it has become worth coming back to, we don't agree much on here but we cannot argue about beer View attachment 26111



O yes we can!! I bloody hate beer and think all beer drinkers are panseys!! :tongue::dance:

lol ))

I really need to try this leffe


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 15, 2014)

sinner said:


> O yes we can!! I bloody hate beer and think all beer drinkers are panseys!! :tongue::dance:
> 
> lol ))
> 
> I really need to try this leffe



get four or five pints of theakstons old peculiar down you . that will prove you arnt a pansey .a lot more manly than a couple of glasses of over expensive plonk . and some drink plonk with lemonade ,very girly .


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## Tezza33 (Nov 15, 2014)

Because I am on painkillers I cannot drink as much as I used to so I prefer to drink the more expensive ones, I don't buy them in the UK though because the ones bought in France are totally different, my neighbour used to drink Stella and 1664 bought from Tescos, I brought 5 cases of each back for him from France and after he had finished them he couldn't drink the one brewed in the UK under licence anymore, I have to do day trips with him to stock up so I buy Leffes and a selection of the Trappist beers/beers with added spirits as well as Wine, he buys the beer he likes and everybody is happy, well apart from the Chancellor of the Exchequer


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## Robmac (Nov 15, 2014)

Despite my comment, I actually can't stand Lager. But there are still some excellent English Ales around, as mentioned by Mandrake - Theakstones Old Peculiar is nice, I love London Pride, I also love Abbot Ale and Caffreys, but can't seem to find the Caffreys much any more.

If I can't find a decent ale in a pub, I can always fall back on good old Guinness.


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## barryd (Nov 15, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> Because I am on painkillers I cannot drink as much as I used to so I prefer to drink the more expensive ones, I don't buy them in the UK though because the ones bought in France are totally different, my neighbour used to drink Stella and 1664 bought from Tescos, I brought 5 cases of each back for him from France and after he had finished them he couldn't drink the one brewed in the UK under licence anymore, I have to do day trips with him to stock up so I buy Leffes and a selection of the Trappist beers/beers with added spirits as well as Wine, he buys the beer he likes and everybody is happy, well apart from the Chancellor of the Exchequer



Well I must say this thread has turned itself around!  much more interesting.   Totally agree about UK brewed Stella etc.  Rubbish and have you noticed its gradually getting weaker?  Continental beer is just streets ahead of our muck.  Sadly Im off it as well due to illness and a myriad of pain killers etc.  Bah!  Saturday night an all!


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## Tbear (Nov 15, 2014)

Got the wife to buy me a bottle last night but it's not the same unless you are sitting outside a french cafe on a warm summers day.:cheers:

Richard


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## ou7shined (Nov 15, 2014)

barryd said:


> Well I must say this thread has turned itself around!  much more interesting......



In all honesty I find the hijacking of this thread a little uncomfortable to follow now. However lighthearted, such mob rule tactics play right into the hands of "the oppressed".


----------



## Sharon the Cat (Nov 15, 2014)

What a nice thread this has morphed into 
hic


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## Robmac (Nov 15, 2014)

ou7shined said:


> In all honesty I find the hijacking of this thread a little uncomfortable to follow now. However lighthearted, such mob rule tactics play right into the hands of "the oppressed".



I think you may be reading too much into the tactics here!

Just a bit of frivolity about putting beer into the hands of "the depressed". :cheers:


----------



## Val54 (Nov 15, 2014)

ou7shined said:


> In all honesty I find the hijacking of this thread a little uncomfortable to follow now. However lighthearted, such mob rule tactics play right into the hands of "the oppressed".



In our defence, Tom had drawn the original thread to a close........

Dave


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## Tbear (Nov 15, 2014)

Bloody Cheek 

No David, it was chilled, served in a stemmed glass by a busty wench and it still did not taste the same 

Richard


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## John H (Nov 15, 2014)

ou7shined said:


> In all honesty I find the hijacking of this thread a little uncomfortable to follow now. However lighthearted, such mob rule tactics play right into the hands of "the oppressed".



We aren't starting on another conspiracy theory are we? So last week........:rolleyes2::wave:


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## Robmac (Nov 15, 2014)

John H said:


> We aren't starting on another conspiracy theory are we? So last week........:rolleyes2::wave:



And so next week.


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## John H (Nov 15, 2014)

Robmac said:


> And so next week.



Why do I have that sinking feeling that you are probably right?


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## Tezza33 (Nov 15, 2014)

I am Spartacus


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## Deleted member 37170 (Nov 15, 2014)

A little "Light" education if I may please?

The human gut:
The human gut is an amazing thing, it acts like a recycling plant. Things like sugars, enzymes, proteins etc are filtered out in there. The good things enter the blood stream and there they make their way to the various parts of the body that need them. Waste products go to the two well known outlets.
Now; as the subject has gotten round to alcohol, lets look at where that goes. Well we all know that, I here you cry! but let's look at HOW it gets there and what it effect it has.

Why do we drink alcohol?  It makes us feel good is the only real answer because we don't really need it do we?
The effect on the brain is NOT instantaneous, it takes a while to work. There is a quick way though! almost like a transfusion.
The stomach treats drink the same way it does food, it absorbs it through the blood stream. When we have an alcoholic drink the alcohol is slowly absorbed through the stomach wall and into the blood stream where it then goes to the brain, this takes some time. The trick to feel the effect quicker is to add a gas that expands the gut and forces the alcohol through the stomach wall very quickly (under pressure). This is a very artificial process and the brain reacts to it within a few minutes. Alcohol in itself is a poison and the brain reacts quickly to rid itself of this toxin. A rapid attack from alcohol produces a violent reaction, the brain suddenly wants to close down certain areas to protect itself, it goes into a slow-mo situation. The result is a loss of mobility, it wants to lie or sit down, a loss of speech control, it cannot be bothered with it, a lowering of vision and hearing capacity. The symptoms are similar to a bang on the head, without the pain.
So force the alcohol into the brain and you get drunk quicker, the pressure in the gut is so much that wind (farting) will be brought on. An immense hunger will be generated (the body wants to fill the gut to absorb the liquid in it so it can rid itself of what is in effect a toxic attack, it then throws it all out (Sick) and then brings about an evacuation of the gut (dioreah).  
So drink Lager or any GAS injected liquid alcohol and you will get the above from it plus, plus, plus and immense hangover the next day.

Now, drink an alcoholic drink WITHOUT gas from a beer engine and you are in-taking a food. The body will think it is a food and it will treat it accordingly. You will still get the same feelings in the brain but more slowly, your brain and body can cope with this, no mad dash to the take away, no keep peeing, less farting, unless you drink enough to nearly drown yourself you will more than likely not be sick or have a dioreah unless you drink a bad pint. Most of all, there is only a small chance of a hangover because you haven't attacked your brain.

So  Euro fizz, alcopops, gas filled bottles and the like are a no, no for a serious drinker.

Rather like Mushrooms and fungus. There are so many, some are delicious some are poisonous, a real countryman will know what he is looking for and avoid the bad ones. A frightened person will buy them from Tesco because they are approved and every one is much the same as the others. Euro approved!

So for a REAL drinkers night out, use only outlets with proper beer engines on the bar. Ask to sample the variety on show, look into the beer to see if it is kept right and then order your pint and drink along with other like minded people who will offer their personal choices of brew. Drink, be merry and enjoy a product that has a thousand year plus in the making and a myriad of tastes to be tried from one end of the country to the other.


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## Polar Bear (Nov 15, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I am Spartacus



No. I'm Spartacus.


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## Tbear (Nov 15, 2014)

Bopper said:


> A little "Light" education if I may please?
> 
> The human gut:
> The human gut is an amazing thing, it acts like a recycling plant. Things like sugars, enzymes, proteins etc are filtered out in there. The good things enter the blood stream and there they make their way to the various parts of the body that need them. Waste products go to the two well known outlets.
> ...



If only that where true, nobody that drinks wine or shorts would get a hangover. 

If you really want to get drunk quickly. Put high strength alcohol on a cloth and breath in deeply through it. The alcohol goes straight into your bloodstream. I cannot recommend it as it may be dangerous.

Richard


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## barryd (Nov 15, 2014)

Bopper said:


> A little "Light" education if I may please?
> 
> The human gut:
> The human gut is an amazing thing, it acts like a recycling plant. Things like sugars, enzymes, proteins etc are filtered out in there. The good things enter the blood stream and there they make their way to the various parts of the body that need them. Waste products go to the two well known outlets.
> ...



Rubbish!  Apart from Real Ale tasting like warm cats pish I can assure you if you drink 10 pints of it the effects that night and the next morning will be the same as if I drank 10 pints of cider or lager.  Same with Scotch, wine or whatever.  Its all down to the amount of alcohol you intake at the end of the day.  Trust me I know.


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## mark61 (Nov 15, 2014)

Pfft, 10 pints. He said real drinkers. Lager drinkers wouldn't understand.


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## barryd (Nov 15, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Pfft, 10 pints. He said real drinkers. Lager drinkers wouldn't understand.



Oh yeah sorry.  I forgot I was on the wildies.  Make that 20 pints, some moonshine chasers and a couple of raw Hedgehogs. .


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## Tezza33 (Nov 15, 2014)

My Wife told me that there is no such thing as problems, only opportunities.

i said, "That's great. Well I have a serious drinking opportunity."


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## runnach (Nov 15, 2014)

Having ran pubs most people would'nt know a well kept ale if it slapped them on the face. 

The old tale they no more about it than the people that do it for a living !!

Channa


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## GWAYGWAY (Nov 15, 2014)

With all the **** which comes our way over parking, why? is it the perception of who we are or what we are.
Do longboat owners get the same crap, cannot stop here cannot sleep in the boat, cannot eat in the boat. I bet they do not, but what is the difference, MH cost the same as a run of the mill boat.  Maybe only nice people use canals and GyXXos use motorhomes.


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## runnach (Nov 15, 2014)

GWAYGWAY said:


> With all the **** which comes our way over parking, why? is it the perception of who we are or what we are.
> Do longboat owners get the same crap, cannot stop here cannot sleep in the boat, cannot eat in the boat. I bet they do not, but what is the difference, MH cost the same as a run of the mill boat.  Maybe only nice people use canals and GyXXos use motorhomes.


 longboats , tend to be Vikings make the gypos look like a bunch of pansies .....maurauding the countryside raping and pilliging all in their midst .....
Talking of which ...I wonder where the boys have gone 

Vonk the Viking aka the Channa


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## John H (Nov 15, 2014)

channa said:


> longboats , tend to be Vikings make the gypos look like a bunch of pansies .....maurauding the countryside raping and pilliging all in their midst .....
> Talking of which ...I wonder where the boys have gone
> 
> Vonk the Viking aka the Channa



As someone whose wife numbers Eric the Skullsplitter among her ancestors, I must object to this obviously Vikingist comment. A nicer bunch of marauding pillagers you would never wish to meet (although I must admit that her mother frightened the life out of me!). :have fun:


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## barryd (Nov 15, 2014)

GWAYGWAY said:


> With all the **** which comes our way over parking, why? is it the perception of who we are or what we are.
> Do longboat owners get the same crap, cannot stop here cannot sleep in the boat, cannot eat in the boat. I bet they do not, but what is the difference, MH cost the same as a run of the mill boat.  Maybe only nice people use canals and GyXXos use motorhomes.



I think you have a good point.  In France or Germany for example owning a Camping Car is considered a luxury and something prestigious to have.  I do think its the opposite in the UK.  Joe public just lumps us together with gypsies and campers who cannot afford a "proper" holiday.  Then there are the section which again is unique to the UK who cant stand to see somebody have something they havent or get something for free, I.e Parking overnight.  Couple those together and its easy to see why we are not popular.

I used to have a 4 berth motor cruiser which I moored on Either Ullswater or Windermere.  The people in our village thought I was minted.  When I swapped it for a motorhome which was acutally more valuable at the time than the boat they all thought I must have fallen on hard times.  Sadly thats the way Brits are which is one of many reasons I spend so much time abroad.  When you think about it there are so many reasons to tour abroad and not many in favour of touring here really.


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## runnach (Nov 15, 2014)

GWAYGWAY said:


> With all the **** which comes our way over parking, why? is it the perception of who we are or what we are.
> Do longboat owners get the same crap, cannot stop here cannot sleep in the boat, cannot eat in the boat. I bet they do not, but what is the difference, MH cost the same as a run of the mill boat.  Maybe only nice people use canals and GyXXos use motorhomes.


 serious answer, Narrowboaters don't need to park therefore invite confrontation in a public spot compete or need access to spots that other vehicles may use, thus causing potential resentment .furthermore you dont see them dumping grey water in a car park, Harmless perhaps but the greater unwashed dont know that.

The rules of the waterways are different to public highways and dont we love our rules ? ..

All the above hopefully goes a long way to answering your question ...Naturally only my opinion ( to keep the Irish contingent happy ) 

Channa


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## ou7shined (Nov 16, 2014)

barryd said:


> I think you have a good point.  In France or Germany for example owning a Camping Car is considered a luxury and something prestigious to have.  *I do think its the opposite in the UK.  Joe public just lumps us together with gypsies* and campers who cannot afford a "proper" holiday.  Then there are the section which again is unique to the UK who cant stand to see somebody have something they havent or get something for free, I.e Parking overnight.  Couple those together and its easy to see why we are not popular.
> 
> I used to have a 4 berth motor cruiser which I moored on Either Ullswater or Windermere.  The people in our village thought I was minted.  When I swapped it for a motorhome which was acutally more valuable at the time than the boat they all thought I must have fallen on hard times.  Sadly thats the way Brits are which is one of many reasons I spend so much time abroad.  When you think about it there are so many reasons to tour abroad and not many in favour of touring here really.



For me this is the alpha and omega of the matter and the source of the issue behind the no overnight parking signs.


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## Tbear (Nov 16, 2014)

As this thread is at risk of getting back on track, I lifted this from Stumble Upon.

A redneck with a bucket full of live fish was approached recently by a game warden in  Central Mississippi  as he started to drive his boat away from a lake.
The game warden asked the man, "May I see your fishing license please?"
"Naw, sir," replied the redneck.  "I don't need none of them there papers. These here are my pet fish."
"Pet fish??"
"Yep. Once a week, I bring these here fish o'mine down to the lake and let 'em swim 'round for awhile. Then when I whistle, they swim right back into my net and I take 'em home."
"What a line of horse sh-t....you're under arrest."
The redneck said, "It's the truth, Mr. Gov'ment Man. I'll show ya! We do this all the time!!"
"WE do, now, do WE?" smirked the warden. "PROVE it!"
The redneck released the fish into the lake and stood and waited. After a few minutes, the warden said, "Well?"
"Well, WHUT?" said the redneck.
The warden asked, "When are you going to call them back?"
"Call who back?"
"The FISH," replied the warden!
"Whut fish?" asked the redneck.
MORAL OF THE STORY:   We may not be as smart as some city slickers, but we ain't as dumb as some government employees.

Richard


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## maureenandtom (Nov 16, 2014)

Mustn't let it get back on track.    Too uncomfortable for that.


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## campervanannie (Nov 16, 2014)

*wheat beer*

:nicethread: Bill and the lads drink wheat beer they love the stuff and they collect the wheat beer glasses, tea total myself. :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-061::lol-061::lol-061::lol-061:


----------



## Tezza33 (Nov 16, 2014)

campervanannie said:


> :nicethread: Bill and the lads drink wheat beer they love the stuff and they collect the wheat beer glasses, tea total myself. :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-061::lol-061::lol-061::lol-061:



I must try some of that tea


----------



## campervanannie (Nov 16, 2014)

tezza33 said:


> I must try some of that tea


It's nice but makes your limbs not work and I get the occasional headache in the morning  i find a good fry up seams to work. XX to you and sis


----------



## Robmac (Nov 16, 2014)

channa said:


> serious answer, Narrowboaters don't need to park therefore invite confrontation in a public spot compete or need access to spots that other vehicles may use, thus causing potential resentment .furthermore you dont see them dumping grey water in a car park, Harmless perhaps but the greater unwashed dont know that.
> 
> The rules of the waterways are different to public highways and dont we love our rules ? ..
> 
> ...



Believe me Andy, Narrowboaters face many of the same issues as motorhomers. Owners of smaller cruisers resent them because they take up a whole mooring which could otherwise suit 2 or 3 cruisers (on a pub mooring for example), and for the same reason they can take up a whole lock causing queues and, believe it or not, river rage.
Cyclists and walkers on the towpath get annoyed when mooring lines cross the path, or tables and chairs get in their way, anglers get annoyed when boats dare to go through their swim, canoeists get angry at the wash caused by boats, etc. etc.

Grey water usually gets dumped straight into the river/canal, and on some rivers, so does 'black' water. But it is not a widely admired practice, and although many boaters use enviromentally friendly soaps and detergents, joe public doesn't know this, all they see is a stream of soapy water spilling into the river.  

Generally though, wild camping is a cinch on the waterways, but as boating grows in popularity, and more and more people are living aboard, more issues are rising.


----------



## Robmac (Nov 16, 2014)

I've just bought one David. (Just in case)


----------



## campervanannie (Nov 16, 2014)

Robmac said:


> Believe me Andy, Narrowboaters face many of the same issues as motorhomers. Owners of smaller cruisers resent them because they take up a whole mooring which could otherwise suit 2 or 3 cruisers (on a pub mooring for example), and for the same reason they can take up a whole lock causing queues and, believe it or not, river rage.
> Cyclists and walkers on the towpath get annoyed when mooring lines cross the path, or tables and chairs get in their way, anglers get annoyed when boats dare to go through their swim, canoeists get angry at the wash caused by boats, etc. etc.
> 
> Grey water usually gets dumped straight into the river/canal, and on some rivers, so does 'black' water. But it is not a widely admired practice, and although many boaters use enviromentally friendly soaps and detergents, joe public doesn't know this, all they see is a stream of soapy water spilling into the river.
> ...



But can you get more bottles of beer and wine in a MH than a boat, just wondered.:cheers::beer:


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## Robmac (Nov 16, 2014)

campervanannie said:


> But can you get more bottles of beer and wine in a MH than a boat, just wondered.:cheers::beer:



It's generally sensible to keep liquid outside of the hull on a boat Annie.

But then, I've never been very sensible.


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## Tbear (Nov 16, 2014)

Robmac said:


> I've just bought one David. (Just in case)



You going to retire on it then? :lol-049:

Richard


----------



## Robmac (Nov 16, 2014)

Tbear said:


> You going to retire on it then? :lol-049:
> 
> Richard



Probably a few times Richard.


----------



## Deleted member 37170 (Nov 16, 2014)

Wints and some others:

What is a serious drinker?

Well someone can be considered a stamp collector but upon talking to them they admit that they just like the colours or the subjects on the stamp. Serious stamp collectors know the dates of issues, the rarer ones, the country of origin and a host more things.

I was a record collector but it wasn't just the sound on the discs it was the Publishers, artist, composer, year and even serial numbers. I was a serious record collector.

So to beer.  Serious drinkers are those who will know many, many things about the ale they drink same as serious wine drinkers, real ale drinkers will want to know the brewer, the ingredients and where those ingredients are sourced from. It is a subject of interest to many.

What do all the above have in common? They meet up and discuss their interest, they inform one another of a "find" and so on. Most are very friendly and welcoming like the real ale houses kept by serious publicans who know their subject and their customers.

A computer driven clinically produced beer that is the same wherever it can be purchased is just that, a beer.
A hand produced original beer product is a living specimen that varies from place to place, it has a life of it's own and a taste of it's own, making it not just a drink, but a serious drink. Much like a modern railway engine, all the bloody same and OK for travel from A to B, but an old Steam engine is something else!!!! it is an experience.


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## Tony Lee (Nov 16, 2014)

It is amazing where these topic destroyers come from.  Comes in waves.

Anything actually to do with motorhoming that requires a serious considered response and they remain skulking in the background -  until one of their grubby band works up enough courage to post something completely off-topic and completely inane and then they come pouring out of their dark places to contribute their vast amounts of nothingness to the conversation.

This topic is a prime example.  Guess the only saving grace is that after continuing the drivel for six or seven pages, they will have exhausted their ability to intellectualise even at this low level and will soon slink back to wherever they spend their days and nights.


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## Robmac (Nov 16, 2014)

Tony Lee said:


> It is amazing where these topic destroyers come from.  Comes in waves.
> 
> Anything actually to do with motorhoming that requires a serious considered response and they remain skulking in the background -  until one of their grubby band works up enough courage to post something completely off-topic and completely inane and then they come pouring out of their dark places to contribute their vast amounts of nothingness to the conversation.
> 
> This topic is a prime example.  Guess the only saving grace is that after continuing the drivel for six or seven pages, they will have exhausted their ability to intellectualise even at this low level and will soon slink back to wherever they spend their days and nights.



And one day, you might even post something remotely nice!


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## pughed2 (Nov 16, 2014)

*if your motorhome is taxed park up andbe happy*

I became a full timer about march 2013, and when not enjoying eu travel I park near friends in the streets of bristol. just remember if your motorhome is taxed and legal in uk that entitles you to drive and park everywhere (in a safe place) on public roads in the eu. recently I had a problem with a householder who came out and basically told me he did not want my camper parked in his road. As its near friends and I have to park there, I did what I read some other camper did up north ......went to the local police station and reported the householder, not expecting to hear any more. following day, a pcso knocked on the van, and after again taking details told me the police have been to see the householder and basically told him not to bother me again.........I leave no mess, I make no disturbance, and yes once you got the van life is very cheap, but also you use a lot less environmental resources......steve bristol


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## n brown (Nov 16, 2014)

pughed2 said:


> I became a full timer about march 2013, and when not enjoying eu travel I park near friends in the streets of bristol. just remember if your motorhome is taxed and legal in uk that entitles you to drive and park everywhere (in a safe place) on public roads in the eu. recently I had a problem with a householder who came out and basically told me he did not want my camper parked in his road. As its near friends and I have to park there, I did what I read some other camper did up north ......went to the local police station and reported the householder, not expecting to hear any more. following day, a pcso knocked on the van, and after again taking details told me the police have been to see the householder and basically told him not to bother me again.........I leave no mess, I make no disturbance, and yes once you got the van life is very cheap, but also you use a lot less environmental resources......steve bristol


 i was talking to another guy who full times in brizzle. he had a pcso bang on his door early one morning ,and told him to leave. he went straight to the copshop and banged furiously on their counter and asked why he had to put up with this kind of noise in the mornings . the pcso was reprimanded,end of the problem ! biggest problem seems to be getting tagged by street artists or angry householders !


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## invalid (Nov 16, 2014)

pughed2 said:


> I became a full timer about march 2013, and when not enjoying eu travel I park near friends in the streets of bristol. just remember if your motorhome is taxed and legal in uk that entitles you to drive and park everywhere (in a safe place) on public roads in the eu. recently I had a problem with a householder who came out and basically told me he did not want my camper parked in his road. As its near friends and I have to park there, I did what I read some other camper did up north ......went to the local police station and reported the householder, not expecting to hear any more. following day, a pcso knocked on the van, and after again taking details told me the police have been to see the householder and basically told him not to bother me again.........I leave no mess, I make no disturbance, and yes once you got the van life is very cheap, but also you use a lot less environmental resources......steve bristol



If you get down to Dartmoor and need a place for a few nights, we have a large sloping car park.
Invalid (Michael)  :camper:


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## Val54 (Nov 16, 2014)

Tony Lee said:


> It is amazing where these topic destroyers come from.  Comes in waves.
> 
> Anything actually to do with motorhoming that requires a serious considered response and they remain skulking in the background -  until one of their grubby band works up enough courage to post something completely off-topic and completely inane and then they come pouring out of their dark places to contribute their vast amounts of nothingness to the conversation.
> 
> This topic is a prime example.  Guess the only saving grace is that after continuing the drivel for six or seven pages, they will have exhausted their ability to intellectualise even at this low level and will soon slink back to wherever they spend their days and nights.



And your comments on the original topic are where?
Dave


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## gholt417 (Nov 16, 2014)

The original point of this thread has run its course so whats wrong with everyone going off topic.

Unless someone wants to see more discord..... as per Tony Lee. Isn't that trolling?

Anyway I'm off to Brugges at the end of the month so will be starting on the brugse Zot mmmmmmmmm

Graham


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## Tbear (Nov 16, 2014)

This thread was doomed to be a keyboard punch-up from the beginning. The inflammatory wording by the OP made sure of that. After recent troubles and bannings I make no apology for my part in trying to make it a little less serious.

Richard


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## campervanannie (Nov 16, 2014)

*seriously*

Seriously fftopic: don't know about you guys but I'm off for a drink. :cheers: :beer:


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## Sharon the Cat (Nov 16, 2014)

Beat you to it Annie we're already in the pub.
fftopic:


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## hextal (Nov 16, 2014)

I thought this thread recovered itself very nicely.  there's a lot to be said about a good sense of perspective.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 16, 2014)

I make no apology for my part either, if there had still been a discussion instead of a slanging match I would not have posted anything off topic on it, anyway it was that robmac  who first mentioned beer and got me all excited


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## campervanannie (Nov 16, 2014)

It's simply being a little bit naughty and having a bit of light hearted fun on a thread that started to get a bit heated so a few cold beers were chucked in to cool it down worked a treat.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 16, 2014)

mabey a moderating tool for phill if things 
get heated instead of the naughty step ,he could use beer to quiet things down :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## GWAYGWAY (Nov 16, 2014)

I tried to read that but just blanked out with a demand to pay.


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## sparrks (Nov 16, 2014)

GWAYGWAY said:


> I tried to read that but just blanked out with a demand to pay.



Are you outside the UK at the moment? I had no problem seeing/reading it.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 17, 2014)

sparrks said:


> Are you outside the UK at the moment? I had no problem seeing/reading it.


I had no problem either, very informative


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