# New signs put up in Wales regarding motorhomes seen in Barmouth car park and spotted in a layby



## Mickrick (Aug 2, 2021)




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## trevskoda (Aug 2, 2021)

Only resting osifer, what tosh.


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## Robmac (Aug 2, 2021)

If those signs are legal and appearing elsewhere in Wales, then I simply won't go there.


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## trevskoda (Aug 2, 2021)

Bet there not rob.


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## Tookey (Aug 2, 2021)

I think Barmouth is within Snowdonia park boundary and the ban is every where within that boundary 

Not 100% though


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## Fisherman (Aug 2, 2021)

I have just checked through my sales invoice for my Motorhome, (which includes £12,000 in vat), my Motorhome owners manual, my insurance documents, and my V7, and my road tax confirmation. But to date I am unable to find any clause which states I have to support anyone. 
Also does this support for local businesses also apply to day trippers who arrive in much greater numbers, or only those of us who have already paid all of the above, some of which should be supporting local communities. Also are we guaranteed places at short notice within these campsites 24/7 12 months of the year.
Finally if I only went to campsites, why did I buy a Motorhome in the first place.


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## Mickrick (Aug 2, 2021)

I would also like to add that a few of the car parks I've visited have had brand new signs put up saying overnight camping bans I'm wondering whether this is all about getting set up ready to enforce new laws regarding parking without the landowners permission?


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## Tookey (Aug 2, 2021)

I suspect we would use local businesses less if based at a campsite, wilding naturally invites earlier starts and later finishes so more 'out n about' which especially with a child tends to mean the wallet comes out!!!


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## alcam (Aug 2, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I have just checked through my sales invoice for my Motorhome, (which includes £12,000 in vat), my Motorhome owners manual, my insurance documents, and my V7, and my road tax confirmation. But to date I am unable to find any clause which states I have to support anyone.
> Also does this support for local businesses also apply to day trippers who arrive in much greater numbers, or only those of us who have already paid all of the above, some of which should be supporting local communities. Also are we guaranteed places at short notice within these campsites 24/7 12 months of the year.
> *Finally if I only went to campsites, why did I buy a Motorhome in the first place.*


You may well ask . Of course virtually all of us support local businesses when we are travelling and , as pointed out already , spend more when not on campsites .
Can't work out how it is more environmentally friendly to stay on a campsite rather than a layby


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## barryd (Aug 2, 2021)

On a normal year I reckon I spend £4-6k on motorhome trips. Thats just spending money.  I would say 90% of that has gone into Mainland Europe economies.  Thats just me.  I see stuff like this and I just think like Rob, fcuk it! I wont bother.


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## trevskoda (Aug 2, 2021)

Not forgetting the fuel we buy and odds and ends in the garages when there.


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## Fisherman (Aug 2, 2021)

alcam said:


> You may well ask . Of course virtually all of us support local businesses when we are travelling and , as pointed out already , spend more when not on campsites .
> Can't work out how it is more environmentally friendly to stay on a campsite rather than a layby



We always TRY to support local communities. But look at our last trip to a C&CC site in Tarland north east of scotland. The staff were English, all our fees headed south of the border, and most of the shops were closed Monday to Wednesday when we were there. So if we had wild camped and the locals had set up chemical waste and fresh water we would have gladly paid them instead. But hey ho that takes joined up thinking, pre planning, and local officials who know what they are doing, not idiotic signs telling us to support local businesses.


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## trevskoda (Aug 2, 2021)

And if you have a cat or dog that requires a loo when wilding.


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## barryd (Aug 2, 2021)

One of the best examples of a really productive Aire I can think of is on Lac St Croix in Provence.  Its a stunning village above a stunning lake and the aire is right on the edge of the village centre with all the shops and restaurants, just next to the boules court.  Two minute stroll and you are in the square.  It gets crammed. I think its about eight Euros a night or something like that.  If you are lucky enough to get a side on lake view spot then its heaven. Not so great in the mashup near the bottom but probably it can take maybe 30 vans at a push.  The campsites are either right down the hill by the lake or two miles away further up the hill away from the village and the lake.  I suspect the aire turns over decent enough money to more than pay for itself and the shops, eateries and bars seem to do very well out of it.  Its not rocket science really is it?

We generally stay a week there and liberally spend money in the bars, eateries and shops. Fantastic place.


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## Canalsman (Aug 3, 2021)

The sign is highly misleading.

Camping without the landowner's permission is indeed illegal in England and Wales.

Roadsides or laybys are in the vast majority of cases part of the highway and provided you are complying with the Highway Code and not ignoring any Traffic Regulation Order you are entitled to park.

You most certainly are not camping.

Those responsible for erecting these signs should be subjected to legal challenge!


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## r4dent (Aug 3, 2021)

Canalsman said:


> Camping without the landowner's permission is indeed illegal in England and Wales.


The sign does not say "Illegal", it says "unlawful".

In England and Wales there is a significant difference between the two terms.

"Unlawful" is "committing an act prescribed by"  or "failure to act in compliance with a mandated requirement" that is specified in statute and is geographically and temporally applicable to the act or omission. 



"Ilegal" is a big bird that is not very well.


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## alcam (Aug 3, 2021)

r4dent said:


> The sign does not say "Illegal", it says "unlawful".
> 
> In England and Wales there is a significant difference between the two terms.
> 
> ...


Struggling to understand what you are saying regarding the legality of stopping in a lay by .
Suspect the signs lack legality or lawfulness


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## Fisherman (Aug 3, 2021)

This type of signage relies on two things.
The first is ignorance of the law and your rights as a citizen of this country, and the second is fear initiated by that very ignorance. Most of us are not lawyers or have sufficient grasp of our rights, and those who erect such signage play on this ignorance.
 But they also achieve something else based on not our ignorance but the ignorance of the public who also read these signs. That something else is anger and even hostility against us. Let’s face when a member of the public reads these signs some if not most will perceive us as scroungers who don’t want to pay for anything, who don’t support local communities unless we go to campsites. So not only do they generate fear from some of us, they also create anger against us from the public, job done.


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## Robmac (Aug 3, 2021)

What confuses me in all of this is who actually owns the roads and laybys? The sign says "Camping without the permission of the landowner is unlawful in Wales"

Most of Snowdonia is owned by farmers or the National Trust/National Parks Authority, but are the roads and laybys? I can fully understand not being allowed to park on farm/NT/NPA land but if the roads are public then they are public.

If the roads and laybys are also owned by these people, I fear we haven't a leg to stand on. Similarly with private car parks.


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## Fisherman (Aug 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> What confuses me in all of this is who actually owns the roads and laybys? The sign says "Camping without the permission of the landowner is unlawful in Wales"
> 
> Most of Snowdonia is owned by farmers or the National Trust/National Parks Authority, but are the roads and laybys? I can fully understand not being allowed to park on farm/NT/NPA land but if the roads are public then they are public.
> 
> If the roads and laybys are also owned by these people, I fear we haven't a leg to stand on. Similarly with private car parks.



It all goes back to the old conundrum Rob.
How are we to know who the landlord is in many occasions, and how are we expected to contact them for permission.
Much of what we do is spontaneous, that’s the nature of our pursuit.
Thats what WC can be all about for some.
Before heading of on a journey I look through the POIs and chose were we will stay, but we have turned up at places were we feel there are to many, and then have too look elsewhere.


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## maingate (Aug 3, 2021)

r4dent said:


> The sign does not say "Illegal", it says "unlawful".
> 
> In England and Wales there is a significant difference between the two terms.
> 
> ...


Well said.

I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.


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## Fisherman (Aug 3, 2021)

maingate said:


> Well said.
> 
> I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.


Spot on, to many signs simply put up by lazy people who can’t be bothered doing things properly. No overnight parking signs are not enforceable, and in 2012 police scotland stated they would not attempt to enforce them. Yet there are still hundreds maybe thousands of them up here.


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## trevskoda (Aug 3, 2021)

Any metaled roads are ok and not private, fields or unsurfaced lanes may or will be another kettle of fish, and who knows how to contact the owners, its a case of sit until you are served a legal/court order letter to move if no legal signeage.


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## r4dent (Aug 3, 2021)

alcam said:


> Struggling to understand what you are saying regarding the legality of stopping in a lay by .
> Suspect the signs lack legality or lawfulness


I think you didn't read the last sentence!


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## iandsm (Aug 3, 2021)

Camping in Wales, without the landowners permission as in England is not an offence in criminal law, it is a civil matter of trespass  with certain exceptions such as forced entry or  damage to gates /fences which would make it a criminal, offence. That is the reason the new legislation is being enacted in the criminal law so that the police will have powers to remove people who park or camp without permission on private land and refuse to move when asked to do so. That seems fine to me. 

The sign displayed mentions this, nothing wrong with that. The "Please do not camp in lay-bys or on roads" is northing more than a request since the Council concerned does not provide any information on legislation which would make this an offence and does not indicate what penalties might be imposed for infringement, therefore as far as the council is concerned the request is not enforceable.      However the police do have powers to move people if they are causing obstruction or danger. 

Having said that I doubt the police would be the slightest bit interested should a motohomer park for the night in a sensible position, not causing danger of obstruction or annoyance to anyone. A group of people who follow a nomadic lifestyle taking u precedence where they please would be a different matter and one which the new legislation seeks to address.

Should some council person emboldened by a high viz jacket draw my attrition to such a sign and tell me to move off I will ask them to inform me what legislation I am in breach of otherwise go away and leave me alone. Of course should the police tell me to move and have good reason to do soI would would have to accept that and do so.

I do find these signs very annoying and if given the chance I think they should be questioned where possible. But lawful signs should be obeyed.


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## Canalsman (Aug 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> What confuses me in all of this is who actually owns the roads and laybys? The sign says "Camping without the permission of the landowner is unlawful in Wales"
> 
> Most of Snowdonia is owned by farmers or the National Trust/National Parks Authority, but are the roads and laybys? I can fully understand not being allowed to park on farm/NT/NPA land but if the roads are public then they are public.
> 
> If the roads and laybys are also owned by these people, I fear we haven't a leg to stand on. Similarly with private car parks.


Most roads and laybys are defined as being public highway. This contrasts with roads, sometimes seen in urban areas, marked as 'unadopted'. These are privately owned typically and are not public highway.

If you are parked on the public highway all is well unless there is a restriction in place that can be enforced by a Traffic Regulation Order or you are parked unsafely /illegally as defined within the Highway Code.

The Road Traffic Act 1988 defines the limits to the public highway.


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## st3v3 (Aug 3, 2021)

We were always told that the retail park car parks were public highway too, when we were parked up watching people doing doughnuts and burn-outs lol.

Yet definitely private owned.

My point? I don't actually know


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## r4dent (Aug 3, 2021)

maingate said:


> Well said.
> 
> I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.


you're overthinking my response.


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## maingate (Aug 3, 2021)

r4dent said:


> you're overthinking my response.


I don't think I am.

The sign itself does not comply with regulations and therefore has no standing in Law. If the cost of litigation was not so expensive, many people would take legal action in minor cases such as this.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 3, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> View attachment 100700



It looks to me like this sign is at a roadside - perhaps a layby?   See the double yellows bottom right?

Well in that case the Traffic Signs Regulations would apply - and the rules may be different in Wales.  If they are different then a little reading of this https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/771873/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-1.pdf will help.

As it looks to me, if in England, then this sign would have the legality of the No Overnighting Signs removed from Scottish Laybys some years ago.  That is - none.    (Aside, the ultimate removal of those signs was from action taken using information researched by Alf, one of our forum members.)

Section 3 at page 12 of the reference is the one you want to look at first.   Then have a look at paragraph 3.3.1 which is so important I reproduce a screenshot here:


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## maingate (Aug 3, 2021)

I think this is just another example of a National Park Authority turning it into their personal fiefdom with petty rules and regs. I don't know about Snowdonia but I do know the the Lake District NP is deeply unpopular with many of the people who live within its borders due to petty and restricting rules.


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## Robmac (Aug 3, 2021)

I've politely asked the question to Gwynedd Council for clarification regarding these signs. I will see if they respond.

I don't particularly want to wind them up otherwise non legal signs (without TRO's) may all of a sudden be made legal (with TRO's). But my stance would be to avoid the car parks, ignore the signs and park discretely elsewhere.

If that didn't work, I like Snowdonia, but if I am not wanted there I will not be bothering them any more.


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## QFour (Aug 3, 2021)

We were told many years a.go when we had our first MH that we were not allowed to park on the street and we could only park on a campsite. I pointed out to the guy that it was a motor vehicle like all others and I could park it where I dam well liked. He then walked off.


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## alcam (Aug 3, 2021)

r4dent said:


> I think you didn't read the last sentence!


I did , sounded like something a lecturer would say to first year law students .
 Obviously missing something .
Go on , pretend I'm thick [not hard], explain


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## mistericeman (Aug 3, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> It looks to me like this sign is at a roadside - perhaps a layby?   See the double yellows bottom right?
> 
> Well in that case the Traffic Signs Regulations would apply - and the rules may be different in Wales.  If they are different then a little reading of this https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/771873/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-1.pdf will help.
> 
> ...


I'd reckon its around here.... 
On the in/out of the main carpark in Barmouth


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## maureenandtom (Aug 3, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> I'd reckon its around here....
> On the in/out of the main carpark in Barmouth View attachment 100760



Off street parking then.  The road sign rules wouldn't apply.  So the question would be - who manages the car park.  Privately owned, owners' rules.  Publicly owned - a local authority off-street parking order.  In either case, pretty well anything goes.


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## trevskoda (Aug 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> We were always told that the retail park car parks were public highway too, when we were parked up watching people doing doughnuts and burn-outs lol.
> 
> Yet definitely private owned.
> 
> My point? I don't actually know


The law is clear on this, anywhere the public have access with no gates etc then you must have ins/tax etc, the strange thing is I got stopped by police riding around a garage forecourt where i worked for the above, went down to the station to see the Sargent on duty and it was dropped.


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## r4dent (Aug 3, 2021)

maingate said:


> I don't think I am.
> 
> The sign itself does not comply with regulations and therefore has no standing in Law. If the cost of litigation was not so expensive, many people would take legal action in minor cases such as this.


Did you read the last sentence of my post?


alcam said:


> I did , sounded like something a lecturer would say to first year law students .
> Obviously missing something .
> Go on , pretend I'm thick [not hard], explain


"Illegal" is a big bird that is not very well.

Do you really need an explanation!


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## mistericeman (Aug 3, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> Off street parking then.  The road sign rules wouldn't apply.  So the question would be - who manages the car park.  Privately owned, owners' rules.  Publicly owned - a local authority off-street parking order.  In either case, pretty well anything goes.


Council I think...









						The parking cash cows that have netted North Wales councils £4.3m
					

Councils have brought in staggering sums from motorists who have to pay to park




					www.dailypost.co.uk


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## maureenandtom (Aug 3, 2021)

Yes.  I think you're right.  Council.  Gwynedd Council.

I'm not sure what visitsnowdonia is.   It seems to be a division of the council.   Their website gives their address as the council's Economy and Community Department and the website is the copyrigh t of Gwynedd Council.  So visitsnowdonia and Gwynedd Council are one and the same.  Probably.

I've had correspondence with Gwynedd Council before.   2018 when the council banned motorhomes from at Morfa Bychan Beach (also known as Black Rock Sands) claiming large numbers of complaints from the public about the usual.  Using the beach as a toilet, dumping rubbish and so on.  The usual.  An enormous number of complaints – the council spokesman said.

There were five.  One, at least, was from a local councillor on his own behalf – not being passed on from a tax-payer.  One from the campsite manager adjoining the beach.

I asked for details of complaints over a period of three years up to the date of the report which I think was a local newspaper – but I no longer have a copy of it,  I probably do have it but a casual search hasn't found it.

I emailed   Daffyd Richard Jones at the council.

_"I’ve glanced briefly at the complaints and, one at least, we can ignore (for my purposes now) because it was not made until 18th June and therefore falls outside my three year query and was made after the problem became public.   Nevertheless I will take it into account.    Far from the enormous number of complaints alleged by the council spokesman there have been only four (or five if we accept the last).    This seems to me to be an effort by the council to create outrage where none existed before.   I can understand the local campsite manager exaggerating the situation – she has a living to make – but I can’t see why the council should wish to create public disquiet where none existed before."_

Daffyd Richard Jones answered

_"The contents of your e-mail also raises a number of points regarding to Morfa Bychan beach, and I offer the following comments.

Gwynedd Council are under a legal obligations to manage its own beach properly. As such, the Council’s arrangements allows members of the public on a daily basis to enjoy the beach’s outstanding natural amenities. However, the events over the 2018 summer season has emphasised the need to discourage the public from being present during and after nightfall because management for the Council during this time would be difficult if not impossible. The Council has no desire to manage after hours, and it certainly does not have the resources to do so.

The Council did not act on anecdotal evidence as suggested. Instead, the Council’s actions were based on the fact (with supporting evidence) that a significant number of motorhomes, campervans, cars and other modified vehicles were staying overnight at Morfa Bychan beach. As previously stated, arrangements and facilities provided at Morfa Bychan beach do not provide for overnight stays, and measures were taken to address the situation. I appreciate that you may take the view that having over 150 vehicles without any facilities or supervision should be tolerated, however, I do not share such a view. In answer to your question  what is the court’s power to fine overnight occupiers on the Council’s land, the relevant provision is section 77 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.

Nevertheless, future management arrangements for Morfa Bychan beach will be reviewed over the coming months, with a view that the scale of future overnight parking be reduced. I very hope that any improvements will be introduced for the 2019 season "_


A neat bit of deflection tactic - ignoring the discrepancy between enormous and five.

I left it at that.  Probably that I would revisit in 2019 to see what future management arrangements had appeared but I didn't.   And then the pandemic put a stop to my activiies for a while – maybe for good.

But only five complaints in three years.  Not much more than one complaint a year.   Five complaints when he says that 150 vehicles were overnghting there.  How often?  I didn't ask.  Nor did I ask what management tasks the council would have to undertake after hours.


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## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

I honestly believe that ‘wild camping’ in the U.K. will become a thing of the past in the not too distant future.  The reasons are twofold.

1) a lack of knowledge. Whenever an issue such as this is raised, the comments range from “this is definitely unlawful” to “this is definitely lawful”. “The signs have to state this” to “the signs don’t have to say this”. Etc etc.  Opinions stated as fact.

2) Lack of action. For whatever reason, we all love a good moan on line, but from personal experience I know that maybe 1 in 100 (1000) want to actually do something. Other than type. There are many reasons for this.

The first problem could be addressed by all the ‘wild camping’ organisations coming together and creating an online resource, plus yearly printed handbook, that summarises the legal position in the U.K.  Definitive advice of what Councils can and can’t do, where they can do it, and what the legal requirements are. Fact, not opinions from Fred down the pub. A one stop resource that anyone could check, and quote.  One stop, not general advice to ‘check it online, it’s all out there’. 

The second problem could be addressed by the first, as if everyone knew the legal position, individuals and groups would be more likely to initiate legal challenges. Although it probably wouldn’t come to that as Councils etc would back down once challenged with legal facts.  I’m surprised that wild camping organisations have never challenged these situations with a no win no fee solicitor, but the first thing is getting the facts out there.

I strongly doubt if any of the above will be done. But it’s quite fun to dream, before wild camping becomes a quaint memory, with doddery old fools telling their grandkids that once upon a time people could park up overnight next to a lake.


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## Robmac (Aug 4, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> I honestly believe that ‘wild camping’ in the U.K. will become a thing of the past in the not too distant future.  The reasons are twofold.
> 
> 1) a lack of knowledge. Whenever an issue such as this is raised, the comments range from “this is definitely unlawful” to “this is definitely lawful”. “The signs have to state this” to “the signs don’t have to say this”. Etc etc.  Opinions stated as fact.
> 
> ...



In this case, if you believe that the legality of these signs is in question, you could be right, or it could just be the enforceability.

One thing is highly probable though, if the council is challenged legally they will probably apply the relevant TRO's in the future and new enforceable signs will appear which would be worse.

I do believe though that wildcamping (or easy wildcamping) will become a thing of the past. We are a small island with a large population. Numbers of motorhomers have grown exponentially in recent years. Wildcampers are probably a victim of the success of motorhoming in general.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 4, 2021)

_I honestly believe that ‘wild camping’ in the U.K. will become a thing of the past in the not too distant future._

Yes, I think that's probably true.  I said  as much quite a few years ago – and am still saying it -and was soundly derided for it. I think you'd have derided it – you like to argue.    I said the Golden Age was coming to an end.

_The first problem could be addressed by all the ‘wild camping’ organisations coming together and creating an online resource, plus yearly printed handbook, that summarises the legal position in the U.K. Definitive advice of what Councils can and can’t do, where they can do it, and what the legal requirements are. Fact, not opinions from Fred down the pub. A one stop resource that anyone could check, and quote. One stop, not general advice to ‘check it online, it’s all out there’._

Fantasy. That won't and can't happen.  Campra is the latest effort but the best up to campra was the mcto run by John Thompson.   I don't know if mcto has gone completely but it has gone so far as John's campaigning is concerned.  Closed due to lack of support.   From good souls like you.  The information on what councils can and can't do can't be summarised - too much variety.  The best base on which to investigate an opinion is expressed by _"Individuals may do whatever is not forbidden, governments may do only that which is permitted"_ (Entick versus Carrington). That good enough for you?






_The second problem could be addressed by the first, as if everyone knew the legal position, individuals and groups would be more likely to initiate legal challenges. Although it probably wouldn’t come to that as Councils etc would back down once challenged with legal facts. I’m surprised that wild camping organisations have never challenged these situations with a no win no fee solicitor, but the first thing is getting the facts out there._

Partly true.  Councils do back down - sometimes.   Neither of  my judicial review applications got to court because the council in both cases did back down before the permission stage.   One by opening an aire (the object) and the other by not enforcing particular clauses in a byelaw – also the object though getting rid of the byelaw entirely would have been nice..   There is no appetite for confronting councils and there are good arguments for not supporting campra who, in any case, are committed to non-confrontation.  As most of us are.

Are you a teacher?   _"Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach_."  (Quotations from somebody famous - but not famous enough for me to remember who) Do you know I think you very probably were a teacher. You're attempting to teach us.

Good post but nothing new - only repeating conversations we've already had and I can't see why you've posted it.  You don't seem to want to actually do anything – just denigrate those who do.   What have you, a mere keyboard warrior, done to preserve our freedoms?   So far as I can see you provide no support whatever to those who do.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> In this case, if you believe that the legality of these signs is in question, you could be right, or it could just be the enforceability.
> 
> *One thing is highly probable though, if the council is challenged legally they will probably apply the relevant TRO's in the future and new enforceable signs will appear which would be worse.*
> 
> I do believe though that wildcamping (or easy wildcamping) will become a thing of the past. We are a small island with a large population. Numbers of motorhomers have grown exponentially in recent years. Wildcampers are probably a victim of the success of motorhoming in general.


Rob, no it's not worse.  It's better.  You know exactly where you are when councils act legally.  If they act outside their powers and no one brings them to task then we no longer have a civilised governement.   We have an elected dicatatorship.    Worse, because those elected can't supervisa all the time then many dictatorisl decisions are made by officials using (absolutely essential) devolved powers.

I have no problem with properly instituted rules, regulations and laws.  I'll obey them and not challenge them.     I have great problems with councils jusitifying  dictates with lies - as so many of them are.  Gwynedd council and it's enormous number of complaints!!   Rubbish there were four - art best five.

If and properly debated then I've no problem with their rule.  Based on a lie- it deserves contempt.


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## trevskoda (Aug 4, 2021)

I am so lucky to live on a small island where folk mind their own biz, I park where and when I want, folk give me a wave and a smile as they to wish to own a big bus like mine, no councils bother much here as there does not seem to be any big problem, and even if there were folk would not even blink about it as we do what we want, live and let live. 
If you fancy a house move well nows your chance as there half what you lot pay over there, then with the savings you could buy that m bike you have always wanted.


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## Robmac (Aug 4, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> Rob, no it's not worse.  It's better.  You know exactly where you are when councils act legally.  If they act outside their powers and noone brings them to task then we no longer have a civilised governement.   We have an elected dicatatorship.    Worse, because those elected can't supervisa all the time then many dictatorisl decisions are made by officials using (absolutely essential) devolved powers.
> 
> I have no problem with properly instituted rules, regulations and laws.  I'll obey them and not challenge them.     I have great problems with councils jusitifying  dictates with lies - as so many of them are.  Gwynedd council and it's enormous number of complaints!!   Rubbish there were four - art best five.
> 
> If and properly debated then I've no problem with their rule.  Based on a lie- it deserves contempt.



I know what you are saying, but as more and more enforceable signs appear, the less I care about the ethics and morals of local government.

The more we force their hand, the more restrictions are imposed. At the end of the day we are the losers. My problem is that I am running out of places to vote with my feet from!


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## maureenandtom (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I know what you are saying, but as more and more enforceable signs appear, the less I care about the ethics and morals of local government.
> 
> The more we force their hand, the more restrictions are imposed. At the end of the day we are the losers.* My problem is that I am running out of places to vote with my feet from!*


That is completely true.


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## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> _I honestly believe that ‘wild camping’ in the U.K. will become a thing of the past in the not too distant future._
> 
> Yes, I think that's probably true.  I said  as much quite a few years ago – and am still saying it -and was soundly derided for it. I think you'd have derided it – you like to argue.    I said the Golden Age was coming to an end.
> 
> ...


How very sad, that you denigrate one person who’s trying to help.

Regardless of your attempts to make this personal, I repeat my comments. If we had one resource that was factual, it would help enormously.  Much more than your dismissive and personal comments on here which are not only unnecessary but also untrue.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

I am a glass half full person.
And I reckon things will have to change, but I am more optimistic than most.
The more of us who buy vans, and the more of us who question the infringement of our civil liberty things just might improve.
For to long we have cowered in the corner accepting the scraps given to us by people who openly despise us. But even on this forum I have noted a change in attitude from many.
And Rob, permanent and even temporary TROs have to be justified, and the process has to involve all concerned parties, hence why many local authorities don’t apply, because they may not be fully justified within the 1984 act.
Up here in Scotland things are changing, and I think generally speaking for the better, but hey ho I may wrong, and not for the first or last time.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I am a glass half full person.
> And I reckon things will have to change, but I am more optimistic than most.
> The more of us who buy vans, and the more of us who question the infringement of our civil liberty things just might improve.
> For to long we have cowered in the corner accepting the scraps given to us by people who openly despise us. But even on this forum I have noted a change in attitude from many.
> ...


Scotland does indeed seem to displaying a positive change, particularly with Aires. CAMpRA is making a difference, although not everyone supports them.  It suits me to be a member but I understand those who don’t want it. 

One of the problems is this attitude we often have of “it’s better the devil we know…”.  That may stop us challenging unlawful signs and restrictions in the fear that it may force the Council to apply a formal TRO.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Scotland does indeed seem to displaying a positive change, particularly with Aires. CAMpRA is making a difference, although not everyone supports them.  It suits me to be a member but I understand those who don’t want it.
> 
> One of the problems is this attitude we often have of “it’s better the devil we know…”.  That may stop us challenging unlawful signs and restrictions in the fear that it may force the Council to apply a formal TRO.


Well some parts yes, but others not so.
One problem up here is the successes we have had have led to a sense of entitlement by some. I have witnessed behaviour by some within our community which does us all no favours. On a recent visit to Elie in Fife, I witnessed canopies, barbecues  and windbreakers in use, with one idiot informing me that he was there for the week in a public carpark. And when you consider the efforts made by Fife to attempt to accommodate us, that makes what they are doing worse.
Yes the local authorities need to change, and in some cases they need to be better informed, but that equally applies to some within our own community.
I don’t think that wild camping per se will be terminated in the U.K., but I do think that things have to be more formalised nationally by each of our national governments.


----------



## Robmac (Aug 4, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I am a glass half full person.
> And I reckon things will have to change, but I am more optimistic than most.
> The more of us who buy vans, and the more of us who question the infringement of our civil liberty things just might improve.
> For to long we have cowered in the corner accepting the scraps given to us by people who openly despise us. But even on this forum I have noted a change in attitude from many.
> ...



The problem with that is Bill that the more of us who buy vans, the less wildcamping spots there are to go around.

But Scotland, in my opinion is getting worse for wildcamping. Yes they are creating 'Aires' but to me they are just campsites by another name and not really wildcamping.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> The problem with that is Bill that the more of us who buy vans, the less wildcamping spots there are to go around.
> 
> But Scotland, in my opinion is getting worse for wildcamping. Yes they are creating 'Aires' but to me they are just campsites by another name and not really wildcamping.


Rob, there are thousands of places to wc up here, and in locations not listed on here. And I would never attempt to define what wc is. One mans version being different from another’s. Some of the Aires are no more than a parking space offered for a small fee, such as the one shown in Fraserburgh on my post from Cameron McNeish, hardly a campsite, no water, no chemical waste, just a place to park, nothing else.


----------



## mistericeman (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> The problem with that is Bill that the more of us who buy vans, the less wildcamping spots there are to go around.
> 
> But Scotland, in my opinion is getting worse for wildcamping. Yes they are creating 'Aires' but to me they are just campsites by another name and not really wildcamping.


Yup spot on.... 

I mostly 'Wildcamp' because I don't want to be around other people.... 
Either on sites OR on Aires/carparks/sides of the road or wherever. 
Only the other week we were over on the East Yorkshire coast and turned up at the spot I'd scoped out on Google earth/OS map and someone was already parked up.... 
No bother left them to their solitude and moved on to another spot... 
Chatted with locals and dog walkers and not a single one was bothered about one unit being there... 
Some told us about good fishing spots some others passed on info about other local spots... 
Sadly I suspect its when spots get turned into impromptu camp sites and people staying for long periods that get folks backs up.... 
The local petrol station and londis store seemed delighted to take our money on a quiet Sunday afternoon too.


----------



## Robmac (Aug 4, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Rob, there are thousands of places to wc up here, and in locations not listed on here. And I would never attempt to define what wc is. One mans version being different from another’s. Some of the Aires are no more than a parking space offered for a small fee, such as the one shown in Fraserburgh on my post from Cameron McNeish, hardly a campsite, no water, no chemical waste, just a place to park.



Most of what you say is true Bill.

For now.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Most of what you say is true Bill.
> 
> For now.



I always try to be true Rob, even when I am wrong


----------



## maingate (Aug 4, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> How very sad, that you denigrate one person who’s trying to help.
> 
> Regardless of your attempts to make this personal, I repeat my comments. If we had one resource that was factual, it would help enormously.  Much more than your dismissive and personal comments on here which are not only unnecessary but also untrue.


I agree with Tom. You have plenty to say but no intention of doing anything.

Don't fret, the vast majority of motorhome owners are just as lazy as you.


----------



## alcam (Aug 4, 2021)

r4dent said:


> Did you read the last sentence of my post?
> 
> "Illegal" is a big bird that is not very well.
> 
> Do you really need an explanation!


No even a thicko like me understands your 'joke' . You have referred to it twice as if it was meaningful . Maybe it is , that is why I asked


----------



## Robmac (Aug 4, 2021)

maingate said:


> I agree with Tom. You have plenty to say but no intention of doing anything.
> 
> Don't fret, the vast majority of motorhome owners are just as lazy as you.



I must say Jim, Tom does more by way of action than 99% of members on this forum.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

maingate said:


> I agree with Tom. You have plenty to say but no intention of doing anything.
> 
> Don't fret, the vast majority of motorhome owners are just as lazy as you.


No matter anyones opinion, Tom deserves our respect on here, in comparison to Tom the vast majority of us are lazy. Tom certainly has my full respect, and I rarely if ever disagree with him, if only we had more like him things would be better.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

maingate said:


> I agree with Tom. You have plenty to say but no intention of doing anything.
> 
> Don't fret, the vast majority of motorhome owners are just as lazy as you.


Yet more personal insults, by someone who doesn’t know me and has no knowledge of my history.  You make no attempt to debate the solution I offered, you just offer insults.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Most of what you say is true Bill.
> 
> For now.


Hows this one for you Rob.
I have spent three nights here alone.
But I also spent a night not far from there (not on the pois) with one of the most interesting people I have met in years. And I learnt a few things from him about motorhomes and Motor homing.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 4, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Yet more personal insults, by someone who doesn’t know me and has no knowledge of my history.  You make no attempt to debate the solution I offered, you just offer insults.


Some of the replies you got were pretty blunt, I agree but I believe they were born out of frustration and nothing more;

There was no point debating your observations as I don't believe there is any disagreement. One representative body and us all understanding the law and all regional bylaws would be brilliant, no need for debate is there. I refer to your points as observations because they are not solutions, the equivalent would be stating that to stop world hunger we need food supplied to all, correct, true, not debatable, but the problem is how to do it, that is a solution.

The members that got frustrated with you are proactive, maybe read Tom's posts again. I can sympathise with his reaction to your post as he has heard it all before backed up with no action, I (we) don't know your history, you might be the frontrunner of this fight, but as you make no mention of this there is some justification in assuming that like the vast majority of us you do very little or nothing about the problem being discussed.

Your post was a battle cry with no strategy given to an unorganised rabble with a few members thinking here we go again, that's all


----------



## Deleted member 56601 (Aug 4, 2021)

Not aimed at any particular member but this is from our Forum rules

_All posts should be professional and courteous. You have every right to disagree with your fellow community members and explain your perspective, but do it in a respectful and non-dismissive manner. You are not free to attack, degrade, insult, or otherwise belittle other members._


----------



## maingate (Aug 4, 2021)

I do not believe my (subsequently deleted) reply was offensive. If it was taken thus then what is the point of a discussion when a member can take umbrage at virtually anything. I shall retire from this thread (and take no part in any similar discussion which may arise in the future).


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Some interesting points raised.
I don't reckon that we are lazy, but if you compare us with Tom then it may look that way.
I have emailed several organisations in Fife, Arran, Trossachs, Loch Lomond, Argyle and Bute, East Lothian, Highland region, various parts of England and Wales, and I have spoken to various people on the phone on motorhome related subjects. I have also twice travelled to Arran to put some input on our behalf in local meetings. These meetings proved very fruitful, both for myself and those on Arran. I saw first hand how some reacted to us, but I honestly think that after those meetings minds were changed, and Arran is possibly now one of the best places for us to WC.
I am still trying to have the barriers removed at the newly renovated Bochastle carpark near Callander, and I will keep at them for as long as I can.

But in comparison to Tom I am a lazy bugger, with too much time on my hands.
But Sorry Tom, I don't intend to follow you, I would never be able to.
I simply don't have your level of dedication or you ability.


----------



## maureenandtom (Aug 4, 2021)

Tom hangs his head in embarrassment.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> …….and Arran is possibly now one of the best places for us to WC.


Yep!


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 4, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Yep!


Kildonan by any chance, seen them there.
Also at Keir point Marganaheglish.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 4, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Kildonan by any chance, seen them there.
> Also at Keir point Marganaheglish.


That particular one was at Kildonan. I staked out where I suspected they would be and boom


----------



## Robmac (Aug 5, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Hows this one for you Rob.
> I have spent three nights here alone.
> But I also spent a night not far from there (not on the pois) with one of the most interesting people I have met in years. And I learnt a few things from him about motorhomes and Motor homing.
> 
> ...



That's exactly my cup of tea Bill. Stunning. And true wildcamping (in my book).

But what will you do when several motorhomes start pulling up there and thereabouts? That's exactly my point, with the amount of motorhomes heading to Scotland in particular, those not herded onto sites or Aires will be seeking out such places.

Bear in mind that wildcamping used to be easy in remote parts of England and Wales but it is getting very difficult now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against sites or Aires - I use them! But I would hate the option to roam and rest in the countryside to disappear altogether.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 5, 2021)

Robmac said:


> That's exactly my cup of tea Bill. Stunning. And true wildcamping (in my book).
> 
> But what will you do when several motorhomes start pulling up there and thereabouts? That's exactly my point, with the amount of motorhomes heading to Scotland in particular, those not herded onto sites or Aires will be seeking out such places.
> 
> ...



Well Rob, one mans version of what’s WC differs from another’s. There is no one definition of WC. We enjoy all types of locations including where this was taken at the Ratagan pass, and this year we have spent some time in some villages. I particularly like to be close to the sea, or a large lake. But so long as you avoid the NC 500, Skye, and other obvious places, you will find a quiet place for the night, we have had no problems. But as I posted a few weeks ago I was none to pleased at what happened at Elie, with to many vans, and some with awnings and even wind breakers out. But then we left and drove to Craigmeade and spent two nights on our own and did the Lomond hills. During the day it did get busy with cars, but we were out most of the day, and to be honest I like company, and I have met some really good people (and one or two idiots). Being completely alone is not a must for me. So long as I can experience the environment fully. Here’s some shots from the Lomond hills







Part of the problem Rob is the lack of places is not only due to the increase in vans, it’s also due to the amount of perfectly good parking places not open to us. I am currently in debate with a trust who now take care of the car park at Bochastle near Callander. This is a classic example of a carpark that was available to us for years, then when renovated they put up barriers. They cannot justify what they have done, and after spending £140,000 of our money they then use some of it to erect barriers. I will keep at them, but this is exactly what’s wrong with our country.
Anyway Rob, we can easily solve our problem up here by putting height barriers at the border


----------



## Tookey (Aug 5, 2021)

Robmac said:


> That's exactly my cup of tea Bill. Stunning. And true wildcamping (in my book).
> 
> But what will you do when several motorhomes start pulling up there and thereabouts? That's exactly my point, with the amount of motorhomes heading to Scotland in particular, those not herded onto sites or Aires will be seeking out such places.
> 
> ...


Unless viruses become a feature of life I think this is a peak in numbers of campers on the road. Lock down provided the time for thousands of self builds (some will fall apart) and the opportunity for many to work remotely combined with many choosing domestic holidays. I suspect at this exact moment there are hundreds (thousands maybe) of people on the road that wont ever do it again.

YouTube has made vanlife appear much sexier than it really is and as I write this there is a couple shouting at each other cos one of them is cocking up reversing on a single track with the argument ending with "WE ARE NEVER BLOODY DOING THIS AGAIN"  

Everything falls in and out of fashion


----------



## alcam (Aug 5, 2021)

Tookey said:


> Unless viruses become a feature of life I think this is a peak in numbers of campers on the road. Lock down provided the time for thousands of self builds and the opportunity for many to work remotely combined with many choosing domestic holidays. I suspect at this exact moment there are hundreds (thousands maybe) of people on the road that wont ever do it again.
> 
> YouTube has made vanlife appear much sexier than it really is and as I write this there is a couple shouting at each other cos one of them is cocking up reversing on a single track with the argument ending with "WE ARE NEVER BLOODY DOING THIS AGAIN"
> 
> Everything falls in and out of fashion


Think , and hope , you are correct
Suspect market will be awash with low mileage vans come the winter


----------



## Tookey (Aug 5, 2021)

............just thinking there must also be thousands of campers on UK roads that would usually be spread across Europe.


----------



## Stu2 (Aug 5, 2021)

Interesting thread and the legal position document is a very good one. In a previous job we would deal with traveller parkups in a large city. 
We had training from a traveller and they highlighted that whilst the groups looked disparate and isolated they were in fact quite organised with access to legal opinion and support. The point is maybe we need to do something similar?


----------



## Tookey (Aug 5, 2021)

Robmac said:


> That's exactly my cup of tea Bill. Stunning. And true wildcamping (in my book).
> 
> But what will you do when several motorhomes start pulling up there and thereabouts? That's exactly my point, with the amount of motorhomes heading to Scotland in particular, those not herded onto sites or Aires will be seeking out such places.
> 
> ...


You've got a motorbike and a bivvy bag! Your sorted chap


----------



## Tookey (Aug 5, 2021)

Stu2 said:


> Interesting thread and the legal position document is a very good one. In a previous job we would deal with traveller parkups in a large city.
> We had training from a traveller and they highlighted that whilst the groups looked disparate and isolated they were in fact quite organised with access to legal opinion and support. The point is maybe we need to do something similar?


Agreed, I use to serve travellers in a pub where a static community lived, they know exactly what their doing and know the law better then most coppers. They also have time, money and work together which makes them a formidable force for authorities, the polar opposite to us

We have a better rep with the general public and media, probably our only advantage over them but presently that is a small advantage


----------



## Robmac (Aug 5, 2021)

Tookey said:


> Unless viruses become a feature of life I think this is a peak in numbers of campers on the road. Lock down provided the time for thousands of self builds (some will fall apart) and the opportunity for many to work remotely combined with many choosing domestic holidays. I suspect at this exact moment there are hundreds (thousands maybe) of people on the road that wont ever do it again.
> 
> YouTube has made vanlife appear much sexier than it really is and as I write this there is a couple shouting at each other cos one of them is cocking up reversing on a single track with the argument ending with "WE ARE NEVER BLOODY DOING THIS AGAIN"
> 
> Everything falls in and out of fashion



With Scotland in particular in mind, the NC500 has just become too popular for my liking.

Yes you will find examples of people who don't take to it - as in any pastime. But just think, at the moment the NC500 is rammed by all accounts, and thousands of foreign visitors are not coming over at the moment, so post Covid the floodgates will open both ways, Brits will go abroad and foreign holidaymakers will come here. I suspect the numbers of foreign visitors will vastly exceed the numbers of Brits going abroad?


----------



## Robmac (Aug 5, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Well Rob, one mans version of what’s WC differs from another’s. There is no one definition of WC. We enjoy all types of locations including where this was taken at the Ratagan pass, and this year we have spent some time in some villages. I particularly like to be close to the sea, or a large lake. But so long as you avoid the NC 500, Skye, and other obvious places, you will find a quiet place for the night, we have had no problems. But as I posted a few weeks ago I was none to pleased at what happened at Elie, with to many vans, and some with awnings and even wind breakers out. But then we left and drove to Craigmeade and spent two nights on our own and did the Lomond hills. During the day it did get busy with cars, but we were out most of the day, and to be honest I like company, and I have met some really good people (and one or two idiots). Being completely alone is not a must for me. So long as I can experience the environment fully. Here’s some shots from the Lomond hills
> View attachment 100792View attachment 100793View attachment 100794
> Part of the problem Rob is the lack of places is not only due to the increase in vans, it’s also due to the amount of perfectly good parking places not open to us. I am currently in debate with a trust who now take care of the car park at Bochastle near Callander. This is a classic example of a carpark that was available to us for years, then when renovated they put up barriers. They cannot justify what they have done, and after spending £140,000 of our money they then use some of it to erect barriers. I will keep at them, but this is exactly what’s wrong with our country.
> Anyway Rob, we can easily solve our problem up here by putting height barriers at the border



I actually quite like putting out chairs, a table and a BBQ Bill, it's all part of the holiday. Of course I would not do this in a car park or where it would inconvenience anybody else.

I don't want to be alone all of the time, I like to meet up with a couple of friends and go to discrete spots where we can sit out, have a bit of food and a drink and leave no trace when we've gone.

As you say, different people have different perceptions on what wildcamping is, so in some respects we are a divided community?


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 5, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I actually quite like putting out chairs, a table and a BBQ Bill, it's all part of the holiday. Of course I would not do this in a car park or where it would inconvenience anybody else.
> 
> I don't want to be alone all of the time, I like to meet up with a couple of friends and go to discrete spots where we can sit out, have a bit of food and a drink and leave no trace when we've gone.
> 
> As you say, different people have different perceptions on what wildcamping is, so in some respects we are a divided community?


So do we Rob, but not in Elie a busy coastal resort with limited parking spaces.
I see nothing wrong in having a table and chairs out, but as you say so long as it’s not annoying anyone. But what angered me at Elie was the fact that Fife are trying to accommodate us. They allow 7 vans to spend up to two nights there with designated parking bays. I was told by the warden at Craigmeade on the Sunday morning there were over 30. Sadly the barriers may come down, particularly on the busy months, and I would not blame them.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a divided community Rob, more like accepting that we are all different with different likes and dislikes. Tolerance and understanding is what’s required, not dictating what qualifies as WC.
As you say in another post we have had no visitors from Europe up here this year, that has offset those who would have been heading there themselves. But I do think that many who bought vans during Covid will be looking to sell them in the coming years. I reckon this will lead to a drop in price, and an increase in newer vans on the road, with many older vans heading for the scrapyard.
Take care Rob, enjoy Scotland whilst you can, I am starting a campaign to close the border from April to October, and my wee pal a Holyrood is backing me up till her nose bleeds


----------



## Tookey (Aug 5, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> So do we Rob, but not in Elie a busy coastal resort with limited parking spaces.
> I see nothing wrong in having a table and chairs out, but as you say so long as it’s not annoying anyone. But what angered me at Elie was the fact that Fife are trying to accommodate us. They allow 7 vans to spend up to two nights there with designated parking bays. I was told by the warden at Craigmeade on the Sunday morning there were over 30. Sadly the barriers may come down, particularly on the busy months, and I would not blame them.
> I don’t think it’s necessarily a divided community Rob, more like accepting that we are all different with different likes and dislikes. Tolerance and understanding is what’s required, not dictating what qualifies as WC.
> As you say in another post we have had no visitors from Europe up here this year, that has offset those who would have been heading there themselves. But I do think that many who bought vans during Covid will be looking to sell them in the coming years. I reckon this will lead to a drop in price, and an increase in newer vans on the road, with many older vans heading for the scrapyard.
> Take care Rob, enjoy Scotland whilst you can, I am starting a campaign to close the border from April to October, and my wee pal a Holyrood is backing me up till her nose bleeds  View attachment 100796View attachment 100797


That Elie scenario you describe saddens me, Fife have done everything we could hope for and it is abused. If they reverse their decision in the future who could blame them


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> And if you have a cat or dog that requires a loo when wilding.View attachment 100711


It's the newspaper makes this cartoon funny.


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> View attachment 100700


It seems obvious that the campsite owners are sitting on the local council.


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> View attachment 100700


Looking at the images of the vehicles I shouldn't be affected by those restrictions .  I don't have a tent, I don't have a large motorhome , and my camper van doesn't have a pop top.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 6, 2021)

Pedalman said:


> Looking at the images of the vehicles I shouldn't be affected by those restrictions .  I don't have a tent, I don't have a large motorhome , and my camper van doesn't have a pop top.


Make sure you slow down for the human children crossing as well as the stick ones


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

maingate said:


> Well said.
> 
> I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.


You know the old joke ...........What is the difference between "unlawful" and "illegal" ? ........one is against the law and the other is a large poorly bird.


----------



## gypo (Aug 6, 2021)

I wonder how long it will take for the small local shops etc that we spend our money in to realise and connect that when profits are down that it could be because their local councillor (who may just happen to have family or friends that own a camp site) has indirectly had a hand in it?
I think it’s fair to say that most on here are not going to suddenly use camp sites in these areas (at £25-£35 a night)


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

gypo said:


> I wonder how long it will take for the small local shops etc that we spend our money in to realise and connect that when profits are down that it could be because their local councillor (who may just happen to have family or friends that own a camp site) has indirectly had a hand in it?
> I think it’s fair to say that most on here are not going to suddenly use camp sites in these areas (at £25-£35 a night)


I thought  £15 + £3 hook up a night on campsites was a lot.  £35 a night just to park your MH is ridiculous especially when you don't need to use any of their toilet / shower facilities.


----------



## mickymost (Aug 6, 2021)

Robmac said:


> What confuses me in all of this is who actually owns the roads and laybys? The sign says "Camping without the permission of the landowner is unlawful in Wales"
> 
> Most of Snowdonia is owned by farmers or the National Trust/National Parks Authority, but are the roads and laybys? I can fully understand not being allowed to park on farm/NT/NPA land but if the roads are public then they are public.
> 
> If the roads and laybys are also owned by these people, I fear we haven't a leg to stand on. Similarly with private car parks.


If the roads and lay-bys were owned by the landowners then how are the general public “allowed” to drive on them obviously they are owned by the government of the uk the same government who are happy to take our road tax yearly from us to enable us to be using these roads. And as far as I am aware my road tax covers me to drive over the whole of the UK roads.I know rules in Scotland are “different” but the Loch Lomond park authority had to quickly back track the other year when they tried to ban motorhomes from being on the lay-bys up there.,when they introduced permits to camp, on official national park land.


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

mickymost said:


> If the roads and lay-bys were owned by the landowners then how are the general public “allowed” to drive on them obviously they are owned by the government of the uk the same government who are happy to take our road tax yearly from us to enable us to be using these roads. And as far as I am aware my road tax covers me to drive over the whole of the UK roads.I know rules in Scotland are “different” but the Loch Lomond park authority had to quickly back track the other year when they tried to ban motorhomes from being on the lay-bys up there.,when they introduced permits to camp, on official national park land.


Do we not need to start a hard push back  against these restrictions ? As you said we pay through our taxes for the upkeep of the roads , we pay vehicle excise duty ( normally called "road tax" but road tax was abolished in 1937 and replaced with 'Vehicle excise duty" )    If we don't push back against these parking bans eventually we will not be allowed to stop anywhere except in strictly designated areas.  Is it time for a serious campaign to protect responsible MH & camper van users ?


----------



## mistericeman (Aug 6, 2021)

Pedalman said:


> Do we not need to start a hard push back  against these restrictions ? As you said we pay through our taxes for the upkeep of the roads , we pay vehicle excise duty ( normally called "road tax" but road tax was abolished in 1937 and replaced with 'Vehicle excise duty" )    If we don't push back against these parking bans eventually we will not be allowed to stop anywhere except in strictly designated areas.  Is it time for a serious campaign to protect responsible MH & camper van users ?


Sounds like a great idea.... 

What are you planning and where do we sign?


----------



## Pedalman (Aug 6, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> Sounds like a great idea....
> 
> What are you planning and where do we sign?


 If everyone on this forum is up for it we could start by having a brainstorming session and putting ideas together. Do you have any ideas on how we could proceed ?  You asked "where do we sign" Not sure about signing a petition would have enough leverage 
The problem with us British is we traditionally can't be bothered to do anything about the things we complain about . 
When all rights ( if we have any ) are whittled away it will be too late.   
I have a suspicion many will agree , but ............................maybe  the posts of restrictions are for information purposes only, I dunno.  Maybe Im barking up the wrong  tree.


----------



## maureenandtom (Aug 6, 2021)

mickymost said:


> If the roads and lay-bys were owned by the landowners then how are the general public “allowed” to drive on them obviously they are owned by the government of the uk the same government who are happy to take our road tax yearly from us to enable us to be using these roads. And as far as I am aware my road tax covers me to drive over the whole of the UK roads.I know rules in Scotland are “different” but the Loch Lomond park authority had to quickly back track the other year when they tried to ban motorhomes from being on the lay-bys up there.,when they introduced permits to camp, on official national park land.


 
Who owns the roads.   That's an absorbing subject and one that's almost impossible for me to get my head round.   What I can gather is that the road surface is owned by the public.  The land under the road is (the subsoil), probably, still the property of whoever owned it at the time the road was “made up and adopted as a highway”.

https://www.roads.org.uk/roadsfaq#11









						Is there unused highway land next to your property - could you enclose the land into your property - Planning news - News & Views - Buckles Solicitors LLP
					

Find out if you could enclose the unused highway land next to your property, into your property




					www.buckles-law.co.uk
				






It was brought forcibly to my attention when a local flood was caused by a blocked drain. Asked why the council hadn't cleaned the drain. It hadn't been cleaned for 17 years.    The answer was:





I did some research what seems a lot of years ago into all those curves on roads which are left over when roads are straightened and it seemed to me that they were the safest places to park if you wanted to avoid local authority rules.   Could be worth looking at – Google stuff like “Once a highway always a highway”  A highway can only be stopped up, that is cease to be a highway, with a Magistrate's Order. So who then owns that cut off section of road?  Now that's a really good question.  My council didn't know who owned a town centre street - as above,  So they said.

If you google phrases like "Once a Highway, always a highway" you can really start digging stuff up


----------



## trevskoda (Aug 6, 2021)

Some parts of old roads here are offered to those whose land or home is adjacent to it for a pittance or free.


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## Robmac (Aug 7, 2021)

The simple answer is that we simply don't know yet who owns the roads in the National Parks.


----------



## yorkslass (Aug 7, 2021)

Robmac said:


> The simple answer is that we simply don't know yet who owns the roads in the National Parks.


Just had a look around, and it looks like highways control the road network.


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 7, 2021)

(Sigh)


I’m just very saddened that enjoyment in our chosen lifestyle is getting harder & HARDER to maintain without the need to almost constantly ‘Justify’ Or weave the grey areas between Law, Landowners & General Public & Local Businesses perception of rights.

Before being a Full Time Livaboard in Vehicles this last 10 years or so, I was a Full Time Livaboard on Boats for 17years & Gave THAT up because the lifestyle was becoming Too 
Let’s say ‘Difficult’ to maintain
So, I wonder what’s next for me, Push Bike & Tent .
Hey actually these Electric bikes can Shift can’t they, Would cut down on my Old Age Shuffleing when out for Food.
‘The Cycling Zombie’


----------



## ragittyrags (Aug 9, 2021)

book the pub stops and stay there...stay cheaply in rugby sites,farm shops and cafes...aires that are popping up....they,l soon get the picture when a family of 2 or a family of four arent stopping in the chippy,the shops or arcades for the kids,,,and next year when europe hopefully opens up there will be no one for them to ban..


----------



## fergie1061 (Aug 9, 2021)

Robmac said:


> If those signs are legal and appearing elsewhere in Wales, then I simply won't go there.


Im not 100% sure but don't they have to have the "code or bylaw" attached to be legal.


----------



## MrSoapsud (Aug 9, 2021)

I wonder how much of the problem of inappropriate use of parking areas, that results in barriers and signs going up, is down to people hiring vans/MHs? These people are unlikely to be on forums like this or aware of what might be termed "etiquette", and, as has also been mentioned, be more likely to holiday abroad once things return to something more like "normal". They probably don't realise the after-effects of their behaviour, nor care if they're unlikely to do it again? Does there need to be some effort to educate these people, perhaps via the MH hire companies? Do they have an association or some such?


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 9, 2021)

Hi ya Mrsoapsud ,
The trouble is, Although it’s good points that you make, There’s little way of ‘Knowing’ let alone ‘Proving’ who’s ‘Irresponsible’ .
Let’s be honest it could just as well be a healthy mix of Picknickers, Day trippers, Fly Tippers, Doggers, Dog Walkers, Boy Racers & Criminal intentioned occupying park ups &/Or Lay-bys for extended periods of time as well as Hire van users & of course the less responsible Vanlifers all just having a bad attitude to Parking irresponsibly & discarding what they shouldn’t . & let’s be honest I would even wager that VERY FEW Commercial vehicles/Lorries etc have Bins for rubbish or dedicated Wash Facilities & Toilets Aboard, So Guess Where THAT lot ends up while taking Tacco breaks or Nights our .
The ‘Vanlifers’ as a whole are just a more recognised soft target to put the blame on I guess.


----------



## GreggBear (Aug 9, 2021)

Good point Mr Z, and I'm in full agreement, it could be anyone. However, any kind of education aimed at any group of road users can only be a positive thing surely. I'd also like to point out that in all my years as a truck driver all over our green & pleasant land, never once did I litter anywhere, or crap in a layby or any other inappropriate location... 
Not all bears shit in the woods.....


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 9, 2021)

I Have, & on occasion still do, so top tip to all readers,,,
NEVER disturb a Zombie heading for the Woods with a spade & a Scented Dog poo bag to bring the used paper back !.


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 9, 2021)

Wouldn’t it be GREAT if my ‘Lethermans Multi Tool’ had a Fold our Spade 

This time next year I could be a Millionaire


----------



## alcam (Aug 9, 2021)

GreggBear said:


> Good point Mr Z, and I'm in full agreement, it could be anyone. However, any kind of education aimed at any group of road users can only be a positive thing surely. I'd also like to point out that in all my years as a truck driver all over our green & pleasant land, never once did I litter anywhere, or crap in a layby or any other inappropriate location...
> Not all bears shit in the woods.....


Don't doubt you for a second but any lorry parking area I've seen here or mainland Europe is a stinkypish smelling tip


----------



## mistericeman (Aug 9, 2021)

alcam said:


> Don't doubt you for a second but any parking area I've seen here or mainland Europe is a stinkypish smelling tip


In fairness on the many many occasions over the last 50 years or so I've visited Barmouth, 
The main car park and beach road have only ever suffered mildly from the usual day visitor detritus of fish, and chip wrappings/soft drinks cans. 

I've never witnessed ANY of the usually quoted waste from 'Wild campers' 

However visiting the popular close by site of Shell Island after a busy Bank Holiday weekend, where despite the £20 a night cost and provision of a modern toilet block along with several extra portaloo blocks (I'm talking good clean facility blocks NOT turdis's BTW) 
And folks still defecate in bushes etc and leave shit stained toilet roll festooned everywhere.... 

It really does a great deal to re enforce my dislike of humanity as a whole and hatred for crowds and groups of folks that are incapable of acting in a civilised manner.


----------



## alcam (Aug 9, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> In fairness on the many many occasions over the last 50 years or so I've visited Barmouth,
> The main car park and beach road have only ever suffered mildly from the usual day visitor detritus of fish, and chip wrappings/soft drinks cans.
> 
> I've never witnessed ANY of the usually quoted waste from 'Wild campers'
> ...


Sorry I meant lorry parking areas . Just edited post


----------



## mistericeman (Aug 9, 2021)

alcam said:


> Sorry I meant lorry parking areas . Just edited post


NOW that's a vastly different thing.... 

Take all the bits I said about Shell island after a, bank holiday and add being knee deep in bottles of Truckers tizer.... Grrrrr.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> I wonder how much of the problem of inappropriate use of parking areas, that results in barriers and signs going up, is down to people hiring vans/MHs? These people are unlikely to be on forums like this or aware of what might be termed "etiquette", and, as has also been mentioned, be more likely to holiday abroad once things return to something more like "normal". They probably don't realise the after-effects of their behaviour, nor care if they're unlikely to do it again? Does there need to be some effort to educate these people, perhaps via the MH hire companies? Do they have an association or some such?


I’m sure that some of the problem is due to newbie motorhome owners and hirers, due to the ignorance of the etiquette.

Plus, knowing some in the industry as I do, I strongly suspect it’s partly the fault of some hiring companies, and sales companies, who will say anything, _anything, _to make the sale. “Sure, park where you want, any time anywhere”.

Plus, the regular motorhomers who for many years have taken advantage of lax enforcement. The ones who said “I know the sign says no overnight camping and is legal but I’ve always got away with it”.

Will it return to some normality in the next few years. Probably, as holidays go back to ‘normal’. But it might be too late.

Sadly I don’t think your suggestion of using the hire companies to spread the message will work, as it goes against what they want (short term).  I did think that perhaps all wild camping organisations could formally collate information; this was met with mixed response.  But again, having been actively involved with campaigning for nearly 50 years (with subjects much bigger than parking to be honest) I know how difficult it is to get people involved.  Even those of us committed to a particular cause sometimes struggle.

Re that particular sign, I would interpret it as saying:
1) no overnight camping in the car park, which may or may not be legal
2) please don’t camp in lay-bys, a request only
3) general info that you need the landowners permission, added to make it all sound official.

I think it was Robmac who suggested avoiding the car park and parking discreetly elsewhere, and that may be the best idea for now.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> I’m sure that some of the problem is due to newbie motorhome owners and hirers, due to the ignorance of the etiquette.
> 
> Plus, knowing some in the industry as I do, I strongly suspect it’s partly the fault of some hiring companies, and sales companies, who will say anything, _anything, _to make the sale. “Sure, park where you want, any time anywhere”.
> 
> ...


Sorry but no overnight parking signs are not legally binding signs, and in Scotland they have not being enforced by police Scotland since 2012.
For reasons outwith my control I cannot post articles relating to this on here.
But try googling police Scotland and overnight parking to clarify this.

Also why should we as tax payers, who's taxes have been used to construct public carparks avoid using what we have paid for.
This in essence is what this is all about. If we cannot park in public places then only private places remain.
And without the permission of the private landowners we have no rights to park there either, in effect leaving us nowhere to park.
I know that some see these Aires as the solution to this 'apparent" problem, but speaking personally I reckon more access to public carparks would go a long way to resolving this situation.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Sorry but no overnight parking signs are not legally binding signs, and in Scotland they have not being enforced by police Scotland since 2012.
> For reasons outwith my control I cannot post articles relating to this on here.
> But try googling police Scotland and overnight parking to clarify this.
> 
> ...


Hi Bill - are you saying that all signs banning overnight camping in Council owned car parks are not legally binding in all areas of the U.K?

Im aware of what happened in Scotland. But I’m not talking about ‘no camping’ signs in lay-bys etc. I’m talking about where a Council puts up a sign banning overnight camping in one of their official and marked out car parks, where the sign follows the regs.  Surely not all of those signs can be ignored and have no legal standing?

My post was sharing some of the blame with newbies, and with those of us who choose to ignore the legal prohibitions.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Hi Bill - are you saying that all signs banning overnight camping in Council owned car parks are not legally binding in all areas of the U.K?
> 
> Im aware of what happened in Scotland. But I’m not talking about ‘no camping’ signs in lay-bys etc. I’m talking about where a Council puts up a sign banning overnight camping in one of their official and marked out car parks, where the sign follows the regs.  Surely not all of those signs can be ignored and have no legal standing?


Yes I am, its common knowledge that a TRO is legally required as per the 1984 roads traffic act.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Yes I am, its common knowledge that a TRO is legally required as per the 1984 roads traffic act.


So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO?  Is that correct and what you’re saying?

I’m genuinely confused. Because as far as I can remember, during months (years) of discussions of these signs, no one on here has ever come forward and stated unequivocally that ALL signs in Council owned car parks throughout the U.K. have no legal standing and all can be ignored.

If that is truly the case then I’m surprised, and also disappointed that it wasn’t made clearer.  It was always my understanding (and I know I’m not alone in this) that SOME of the signs, not all of them but some, were legally binding.

My position certainly appears to be supported by various groups, not least the Camper Van Bible https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecampervanbible.co.uk/amp/no-overnight-parking-signs-the-facts

It’s those of us ignoring these lawful, enforceable, signs that have contributed in some smal. way to the problem.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO?  Is that correct and what you’re saying?
> 
> I’m genuinely confused. Because as far as I can remember, during months (years) of discussions of these signs, no one on here has ever come forward and stated unequivocally that ALL signs in Council owned car parks throughout the U.K. have no legal standing and all can be ignored.
> 
> ...


Then what’s the point of TROs then.
Also your link confirms what I have stated with regards to public carparks.

*“Secondly, there is a distinct difference between a privately-owned car park (this can mean either a private company, national trust, forestry commission or local authority - whoever may be the leaseholder of said space) and the public highway (roads, laybys and pull off areas). 


Car parks are generally covered by off-street parking place TRO’s (Traffic Regulation Orders). These set out specific rules for the use of that space only and these orders may have clauses prohibiting sleeping, cooking, eating and may have height or weight restrictions. These signs are legally binding and must be adhered to, IF restrictions AND penalties are clearly displayed on the sign at that location.

The photo displays a legally enforceable sign and a non-enforceable sign to show you the difference.”*

These TROs only apply to public carparks.
In private carparks you have no legal right to park without the owners permission. Hence TROs have no place in a private carpark, the landowner can erect whatever signs they wish, as ultimately as I already stated without their permission you have no right to be there.

IMHO barriers in public carparks are a way of bypassing TROs and should not be erected without a temporary or permanent TRO.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Then what’s the point of TROs then.
> Also your link confirms what I have stated with regards to public carparks.
> 
> *Secondly, there is a distinct difference between a privately-owned car park (this can mean either a private company, national trust, forestry commission or local authority - whoever may be the leaseholder of said space) and the public highway (roads, laybys and pull off areas).
> ...


Perhaps we’re saying the same thing, just differently.

I’m talking about those of us who have ignored lawful no overnight camping signs, issued through a TRO, in a Council owned car park.  Those that have done that and ignored the lawful signs where they exist have contributed to the problem; as have ignorant newbies and sales driven companies.

Im not talking about the unlawful signs, the private property or height barriers.


----------



## Robmac (Aug 9, 2021)

fergie1061 said:


> Im not 100% sure but don't they have to have the "code or bylaw" attached to be legal.



Yea I think they have to have a TRO number visible somewhere on the sign. I think it can be on the back though?


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Perhaps we’re saying the same thing, just differently.
> 
> I’m talking about those of us who have ignored lawful no overnight camping signs, issued through a TRO, in a Council owned car park.  Those that have done that and ignored the lawful signs where they exist have contributed to the problem; as have ignorant newbies and sales driven companies.
> 
> Im not talking about the unlawful signs, the private property or height barriers.


Rolyan there are no legally binding NO OVERNIGHT PARKING signs in a public carpark unless they are supported by either a temporary or permanent TRO. Also these signs must refer to the TRO, give accurate times when parking is allowed, types of vehicles prohibited ( If applicable), any penalties for breaching the TRO, and other information. I would never breech a TRO, but if needs be and I have no choice I would ignore a no overnight parking sign in a public carpark. Although normally I would go elsewhere.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Rolyan there are no legally binding NO OVERNIGHT PARKING signs in a public carpark unless they are supported by either a temporary or permanent TRO. Also these signs must refer to the TRO, give accurate times when parking is allowed, types of vehicles prohibited ( If applicable), any penalties for breaching the TRO, and other information. I would never breech a TRO, but if needs be and I have no choice I would ignore a no overnight parking sign in a public carpark. Although normally I would go elsewhere.


Bill, I know!

I have repeatedly said that I am referring to the _*lawful*_ signs (the ones supported by a TRO with appropriate details). In my initial post I referred to “_lawful signs that followed the regs”_. Many of us know people who have ignored these lawful signs, knowing that the enforcement has been lax.

They are the ones I’m referring to, not the illegal signs, not the private car parks and not the height barriers.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Bill, I know!
> 
> I have repeatedly said that I am referring to the _*lawful*_ signs (the ones supported by a TRO with appropriate details). Many of us know people who have ignored these lawful signs, knowing that the enforcement has been lax.
> 
> They are the ones I’m referring to, not the illegal signs, not the private car parks and not the height barriers.


My last post on this Rolyan.

Now this was your initial comment from from post 110

*Plus, the regular motorhomers who for many years have taken advantage of lax enforcement. The ones who said “I know the sign says no overnight camping and is legal but I’ve always got away with it”.*

When I pointed out that these signs are not legally binding you then asked

*So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO? Is that correct and what you’re saying?*

I posted no they don’t and that all no overnight parking signs alone with no other signage are not legally binding and non enforcable.

Sorry but it’s clear to me and everyone else I would have thought that you reckoned that all no overnight parking signs were legal, and backed up by a TRO. Well no TRO is enforceable without correct signage, and merely erecting a sign stating no overnight parking does not meet the criteria set out within the roads traffic act of 1984 which TROs are part of. Hence if any public carpark only has a no overnight parking sign you are within your rights to ignore it.

I hope this clears this matter up for all concerned.

I am off for a coffee now


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 9, 2021)

Just to be clear, I DO NOT think that all no overnight camping signs are legal.  That’s frankly ridiculous.

I have repeatedly referred to legal signs that followed the regs.  That clearly shows that I am not referring to the illegal signs that do not follow the regs.

You pointed out that these signs are not legally binding so I asked

*So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO? Is that correct and what you’re saying?*

You posted no they don’t and that all no overnight parking signs are not legally binding and non enforcable.

But that’s clearly not correct, there are  signs banning overnight camping that are supported by TRO, give the appropriate details and are enforceable. That’s the point I was making. Some of these signs in public car parks ARE lawful and enforceable. 

There was some mis-understanding on both sides, and I accept my part in it, but please don’t claim you know what I thought or believed. You don’t. There was some confusion on both sides which has now hopefully been cleared up.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 9, 2021)

alcam said:


> Sorry I meant lorry parking areas . Just edited post


Easily done alcam,
I must admit when I read your original post I was shocked.
But thanks for clarifying things.


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 9, 2021)

Sooooo....
Is a Day tripper, Pic Nicker, Lorry driver or Curier in a Lay-by taking a 8-10hr break awaking from a knap & breaking out their burner to make a Brew & a Potnoodle while performing there Morning relief routine in the hedge or verge, Brushing there teeth, Having a wash & tipping the grey water into the curb  ‘Camping’ 
Apparently it doesn’t even highlight ‘Caravans’,,,So is it JUST Motorhomes & alike that the majority of which has the on board Facilities to perform all of the above ‘AND TAKE IT AWAY WITH THEM’ that this applies to do you think .


----------



## RoadTrek Boy (Aug 10, 2021)

Fisherman, I think you must have the patience of a saint!


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2021)

RoadTrek Boy said:


> Fisherman, I think you must have the patience of a saint!




I think I know what you refer to.
There comes a point, were there is no point.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2021)

Nesting Zombie said:


> Sooooo....
> Is a Day tripper, Pic Nicker, Lorry driver or Curier in a Lay-by taking a 8-10hr break awaking from a knap & breaking out their burner to make a Brew & a Potnoodle while performing there Morning relief routine in the hedge or verge, Brushing there teeth, Having a wash & tipping the grey water into the curb  ‘Camping’
> Apparently it doesn’t even highlight ‘Caravans’,,,So is it JUST Motorhomes & alike that the majority of which has the on board Facilities to perform all of the above ‘AND TAKE IT AWAY WITH THEM’ that this applies to do you think .


The sooner we realise that we are freeloading, selfish, environmental polluters, who have no respect for anyone the better. After all we are judged by those very day trippers, pic nickers, and lorry drivers.


----------



## drcot3 (Aug 11, 2021)

Hello to all,
As an ex HGV class 1 driver many moons ago, many lorry's parked overnight in laybys and still do and they do not have toilets/washing waste tanks like motorhomes, so please explain why motorhomes cannot park in laybys overnight?


----------



## Nesting Zombie (Aug 11, 2021)

drcot3 said:


> Hello to all,
> As an ex HGV class 1 driver many moons ago, many lorry's parked overnight in laybys and still do and they do not have toilets/washing waste tanks like motorhomes, so please explain why motorhomes cannot park in laybys overnight?


Hi ya 
THATS EXACTLY the point I tried to highlight earlier .
Ridiculous isn’t it


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2021)

drcot3 said:


> Hello to all,
> As an ex HGV class 1 driver many moons ago, many lorry's parked overnight in laybys and still do and they do not have toilets/washing waste tanks like motorhomes, so please explain why motorhomes cannot park in laybys overnight?


We can’t. 

It’s a riddle wrapped up in a mystery, inside an egnima.

To understand it you either have to be highly intelligent, or thick as sh-t.


----------



## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> We can’t.
> 
> It’s a riddle wrapped up in a mystery, inside an egnima.
> 
> To understand it you either have to be highly intelligent, or thick as sh-t.


Well I have the last qualification.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 11, 2021)

drcot3 said:


> Hello to all,
> As an ex HGV class 1 driver many moons ago, many lorry's parked overnight in laybys and still do and they do not have toilets/washing waste tanks like motorhomes, so please explain why motorhomes cannot park in laybys overnight?


Generally we can.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 11, 2021)

drcot3 said:


> Hello to all,
> As an ex HGV class 1 driver many moons ago, many lorry's parked overnight in laybys and still do and they do not have toilets/washing waste tanks like motorhomes, so please explain why motorhomes cannot park in laybys overnight?


Unsure what restrictions you are referring to but HGV drivers have the power of public support and also the power to bring the country to its knees inside 72hrs if they choose. Authorities only like easy and/or popular battles

Wildcamping is going to buggered in places like Cornwall after the next round of local elections as all the different colours will be playing the 'hardline' stance in their chase for votes and it's easy  pledge to fulfill


----------



## Biggarmac (Aug 11, 2021)

We are all suffering because of the paranoia bought on by people being frightened  of strangers.  They think we are all bearers of the plague.  They then harass their local councillors who do anything for a quiet life.  No overnight signs - legal or not.


----------



## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2021)

Anything out of the ordinary frightens folk, just wait to they see their first UFO.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 11, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> We are all suffering because of the paranoia bought on by people being frightened  of strangers.  They think we are all bearers of the plague.  They then harass their local councillors who do anything for a quiet life.  No overnight signs - legal or not.


Brought on by the media, not the public, but the people swallowed it. Crucially we are also identifiable, people can't hate all tourists, their economy relies on it, but they just need to hate some, makes them feel better and when one small group is easily identifiable it's just perfect


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2021)

Tookey said:


> Brought on by the media, not the public, but the people swallowed it. Crucially we are also identifiable, people can't hate all tourists, their economy relies on it, but they just need to hate some, makes them feel better and when one small group is easily identifiable it's just perfect


In my honest opinion it’s a combination of both, but initiated by locals and their councillors. Then once the media get their teeth into it, the fact that someone fills a water tank in a cemetery, is newsworthy for the vultures who write about us, and for the public to see us as disrespectful, selfish, freeloaders, needing to be sorted out. Yes they should not have filled their tank in a cemetery, but is that really newsworthy, or does it simply facilitate the anti Motorhome mantra drummed up by a frenzied biased media.
We even see unverified accounts of our apparent poor behaviour, with subtle comments that hint towards us being the main protagonists with all of the problems now being covered by the media.
Why, well ignorance breeds fear, and ignorance our main enemy.
And not only ignorance within some councils, but ignorance from some within us, who are unfamiliar with our etiquette, or who simply choose to ignore it.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> In my honest opinion it’s a combination of both, but initiated by locals and their councillors. Then once the media get their teeth into it, the fact that someone fills a water tank in a cemetery, is newsworthy for the vultures who write about us, and for the public to see us as disrespectful, selfish, freeloaders, needing to be sorted out. Yes they should not have filled their tank in a cemetery, but is that really newsworthy, or does it simply facilitate the anti Motorhome mantra drummed up by a frenzied biased media.
> We even see unverified accounts of our apparent poor behaviour, with subtle comments that hint towards us being the main protagonists with all of the problems now being covered by the media.
> Why, well ignorance breeds fear, and ignorance our main enemy.
> And not only ignorance within some councils, but ignorance from some within us, who are unfamiliar with our etiquette, or who simply choose to ignore it.


Slightly crossed wires and my fault. When I was replying to Biggarmacs 'paranoia of strangers' and I replied with it being the fault of the media it was in the context of the present British psyche and not specific to motorhomes. With regards to motorhomes I agree that it was initiated by locals but I believe the foundation was laid by a bigoted local and national press, one that is quite at ease stirring up conflict between groups and in grains an 'us and them' mentality and teaches us to point blame at a group and not individuals


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2021)

Tookey said:


> Slightly crossed wires and my fault. When I was replying to Biggarmacs 'paranoia of strangers' and I replied with it being the fault of the media it was in the context of the whole present British psyche and not specific to motorhomes. With regards to motorhomes I agree that it was initiated by locals but I believe the foundation was laid by a bigoted local and national press that is quite at ease stirring up conflict between groups and in grains a 'us and them' mentality which must point blame at a group and not individuals



Just make sure you don’t drive through an amber light, or overtake a school bus, or you may find yourself being reported on a local rag, being compared with someone taking water from a tap in a cemetery.


----------



## Tookey (Aug 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Just make sure you don’t drive through an amber light, or overtake a school bus, or you may find yourself being reported on a local rag, being compared with someone taking water from a tap in a cemetery.


I'm gonna start having nightmares about cemetery taps soon


----------



## WalesGraham (Aug 16, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> View attachment 100700


As I mentioned in another thread, the sheer numbers of vans this Summer has caused ill feeling amongst many locals (sadly) and a small but increasing number of van owners who have left rubbish and emptied their waste tanks in public places has created this tension that the authorities have responded too in a negative way. I guess it is cheaper for them to ban over night parking and place height restrictions with barriers than create the much needed 'Aires' I would so like to see here. Most local authorities in N. Wales are doing the same but also NRW (Natural Resources Wales) have also placed signs prohibiting overnight camping / parking in their car parks for the first time, again, in response to the volume of vans stopping over and the rubbish being left. As a local myself who enjoys a night or two 'wild camping' I have almost given up on the idea of doing so this Summer, hopefully attitudes will improve (and the number of vans diminish once European travel resumes).


----------



## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2021)

Tookey said:


> I'm gonna start having nightmares about cemetery taps soon


Would that be in the DEAD of the night.


----------



## Tezza33 (Aug 16, 2021)

Nesting Zombie said:


> I Have, & on occasion still do, so top tip to all readers,,,
> NEVER disturb a Zombie heading for the Woods with a spade & a Scented Dog poo bag to bring the used paper back !.





Nesting Zombie said:


> Wouldn’t it be GREAT if my ‘Lethermans Multi Tool’ had a Fold our Spade
> 
> This time next year I could be a Millionaire


Or up to your neck in s**t


----------



## Rolyan57 (Aug 16, 2021)

WalesGraham said:


> As I mentioned in another thread, the sheer numbers of vans this Summer has caused ill feeling amongst many locals (sadly) and a small but increasing number of van owners who have left rubbish and emptied their waste tanks in public places has created this tension that the authorities have responded too in a negative way. I guess it is cheaper for them to ban over night parking and place height restrictions with barriers than create the much needed 'Aires' I would so like to see here. Most local authorities in N. Wales are doing the same but also NRW (Natural Resources Wales) have also placed signs prohibiting overnight camping / parking in their car parks for the first time, again, in response to the volume of vans stopping over and the rubbish being left. As a local myself who enjoys a night or two 'wild camping' I have almost given up on the idea of doing so this Summer, hopefully attitudes will improve (and the number of vans diminish once European travel resumes).


The trouble is, even when the numbers drop over the next year or so, the local authority restrictions, the height barriers and the no overnight camping signs on private land will remain.

Sadly, this has probably changed ‘wild camping’ permanently.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 16, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> The trouble is, even when the numbers drop over the next year or so, the local authority restrictions, the height barriers and the no overnight camping signs on private land will remain.
> 
> Sadly, this has probably changed ‘wild camping’ permanently.


No overnight parking signs on private land are enforceable, but not on public carparks. And barriers are a simple way of avoiding all that goes along with acquiring and enforcing a TRO.
Soon the way things are heading only parts of Scotland will be available, and that won’t last to long when all of the English and WELSH motorhomes head up here.
Also when things get back to normal, the Europeans will be back taking up any slack left by some of us heading to Europe.
Sadly I don’t think things will get quieter in future years.

I was reading in this months MMM that new sales of motorhomes were down 2000 from the previous year.


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## MrSoapsud (Aug 16, 2021)

As someone who wildcamps in a T5 where possible who also lives in Gwynedd I've engaged with my councillor following the Council's "consultation". This was his statement about why "something has to be done":

Social nuisance: Lots of campervans park in nice places and then leave their rubbish there and deficate on the side of the road, or empty their toliets into our rivers. We are already one of the 7 areas of European overtourism, and much of our tourism is disrespectful and damages our environment and community life. In my opinion the council should have the legal and financial resources to manage and regulate tourism so that it id beneficial to both local people and visitors. To help get rid of the animosity.

Economic: Staying on roadsides avoids contributing financially to the Gwynedd economy. A sustainable tourist economy ensures that visitors contribute financially to the host community. Campervans are an increasingly popular way of holidaying and we need to adapt to this to make sure we benefit.

Visitor experience: Ive been a tourist as much as anyone. Ive had positive experiences and negative ones. Having to have to poo on the street or worry about the legality of my stay would make for a negative holiday experience for me and im sure thats true of the campervan visitors to Gwynedd. There are plenty of countries in Europe that sustainably accomodate the types of visits campervans are looking for, and provide services for them. Im pretty sure thats what campervan visitors to Gwynedd would like. 

No real reason why we can do that and provide a positive experience for the visitor and helps local people see that its not just a free for all at our expense.

I also challenged him about the Morfa Bychan situation mentioned some time ago in this thread and his response was:

"No idea about the Morfa Bychan scenario but it sounds very very unlikely. The banning of motor homes from a beach in Gwynedd wouldnt happen just because a councillor and campsite owner made a couple of complaints."

Can "the team" help me provide an appropriate response?
Thanks
Martin


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 16, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> As someone who wildcamps in a T5 where possible who also lives in Gwynedd I've engaged with my councillor following the Council's "consultation". This was his statement about why "something has to be done":
> 
> Social nuisance: Lots of campervans park in nice places and then leave their rubbish there and deficate on the side of the road, or empty their toliets into our rivers. We are already one of the 7 areas of European overtourism, and much of our tourism is disrespectful and damages our environment and community life. In my opinion the council should have the legal and financial resources to manage and regulate tourism so that it id beneficial to both local people and visitors. To help get rid of the animosity.
> 
> ...


Well reading the reply and comments like “lots of campervans park in nice places and deficate on the side of the side of the road, or empty their toilets into our rivers” can we be more specific than lots, and can you provide photographic evidence of these misdemeanours. Or are you simply reading articles from local rags or complaints from locals who have been reading local rags. Also how do you know who exactly is carrying out these misdemeanours, have people witnessed this first hand. Are motorhomes the only types of vehicles using these areas, or do cars and other types of vehicles with no toilet facilities use these places also.
As for us not contributing to local economies, you could ask where they get this information from, and how they have made this deduction. Also ask how much day trippers in cars who will greatly outnumber us contribute to these local economies, and ask how much is spent providing toilet facilities for them and the costs involved in maintaining car parks for their use which we are not able to use due to barriers and signage.
You could also ask how many Motorhome dealerships, workshops, and shops  are in Wales, and how many Welsh people are employed within the industry they wish to damage with short sighted inconsistent policies towards us.
Finally right now Wales is looking like a country that does not welcome visitors unless they reside in hotels and B&Bs. Is that really the image that Wales wishes to send to the rest of the U.K. and Europe. Instead of short sighted poorly rationalised policies, why don’t you actually do as some councils in Scotland are doing and adopt a proactive forward thinking approach and look to improve the inadequate facilities, which are a legacy of years of the very lack of forward thinking you are currently displaying.

I hope you find some of this useful.


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## Rolyan57 (Aug 16, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> As someone who wildcamps in a T5 where possible who also lives in Gwynedd I've engaged with my councillor following the Council's "consultation". This was his statement about why "something has to be done":
> 
> Social nuisance: Lots of campervans park in nice places and then leave their rubbish there and deficate on the side of the road, or empty their toliets into our rivers. We are already one of the 7 areas of European overtourism, and much of our tourism is disrespectful and damages our environment and community life. In my opinion the council should have the legal and financial resources to manage and regulate tourism so that it id beneficial to both local people and visitors. To help get rid of the animosity.
> 
> ...


Reading that response from the Council I think you’ll have your work cut out. Seems to be a very narrow minded and blinkered view, with minds already made up.

We should still give it a go though. Along the lines already suggested; question the points and give an opposing positive view.

But don’t be disappointed (or disheartened) by any negative response you get from the Council. As already mentioned, my fear going forward is that the Councils and also private landowners will retain all the legal restrictions they now have in place, even when the newbies go back to Costa Del Boy.


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## Kontiki (Aug 16, 2021)

Its an unfortunate fact that the motorhome community gets the blame for people leaving rubbish, that isn't to claim it is unjustified as most of us will have seen others doing it but thankfully not widespread. Not just in this country but throughout Europe. There are very few provisions for motorhome to overnight without causing problems, we all want to find nice places but often these are shared with day trippers who also want to park there. I know many have tried to talk to local councils to get provisions but mostly with little success, what it needs is a change countrywide. Now might be time to approach the Welsh government with ideas to solve the issues. There is a lot of money to be made from having paid stopping places as well as the local community having more people visit.


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## MrSoapsud (Aug 16, 2021)

Might part of the problem be the users of "motorhomes/campervans" which are actually little more than a van with a mattress and a camping gas stove in the back?
There have also been instances (unknown number) of people arriving in Snowdonia to "wild camp" and then abandoning their tent, instant BBQ, rubbish etc when they go home.


----------



## Fisherman (Aug 16, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Might part of the problem be the users of "motorhomes/campervans" which are actually little more than a van with a mattress and a camping gas stove in the back?
> There have also been instances (unknown number) of people arriving in Snowdonia to "wild camp" and then abandoning their tent, instant BBQ, rubbish etc when they go home.


Absolutely, this is one of the issues up here in scotland.
I doubt very much if we are to blame for much of what is going on in Wales.
But the media have done a job on us.


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## number14 (Aug 16, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Seems to be a very narrow minded and blinkered view, with minds already made up.


That's quite a prevalent attitude in the areas being discussed. We have lost count over the years of the number of times that the friendliness quotient has rocketed when SWMBO, a native Welsh speaker, switches languages. 
It's a case of not wanting tourists even though jobs are in short supply.
The mining eyesores of the Welsh valleys have now virtually disappeared but the area is still in the economic doldrums. You see, "Tourism is not man's work"


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## MrSoapsud (Aug 16, 2021)

number14 said:


> That's quite a prevalent attitude in the areas being discussed. We have lost count over the years of the number of times that the friendliness quotient has rocketed when SWMBO, a native Welsh speaker, switches languages.
> It's a case of not wanting tourists even though jobs are in short supply.
> The mining eyesores of the Welsh valleys have now virtually disappeared but the area is still in the economic doldrums. You see, "Tourism is not man's work"


Sadly some of your experiences may be down to the attitude of some English visitors who e.g. arrive during a World Cup in which Wales were also participating with their plastic England flags on their cars! 
There are also the minority of English visitors who act like they own the place, although sadly many of them now do! ;-) (Another problem in Gwynedd that the council are trying to wrestle with.)

It struck me since posting the comments that Gwynedd Council may have shot themselves in the foot by closing most of the public toilets in the county to save money. Doing that and then wondering why *some* visitors make alternative arrangements ought to give them pause for thought.

Does "the team" have a feel for the proportion of "responsible" motorhome/campervan owners who like to pay to stay on sites with all the facilities against those who avoid sites? Would a reasonable proportion of the latter pay a small amount to use something akin to an Aire?

Appreciate all the comments so far and will attempt to construct a response at some point. 
Thanks
Martin


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## Fisherman (Aug 16, 2021)

Well Martin I reckon if chemical waste and fresh water are available we should be willing to pay something. I am heading up to Findhorn end of this month and they provide these facilities plus Motorhome only parking in proper bays at £15 a night. Now Findhorn had issues similar to Wales, but instead of short cited measures they built this facility for up to 21 motorhome, with a maximum stay of two nights. There are plenty of other examples up here.
But there should be plenty of free parking spaces in Wales also.
Heres a link to Findhorn and a Cameron McNeish video about it and a stop over in Fraserburgh run by members on here for £5 a night.





__





						Findhorn Parking | Home
					






					www.findhornparking.com


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## Robmac (Aug 16, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Sadly some of your experiences may be down to the attitude of some English visitors who e.g. arrive during a World Cup in which Wales were also participating *with their plastic England flags on their cars!*



Sorry but I really don't see a problem with that!


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## mistericeman (Aug 16, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Sorry but I really don't see a problem with that!


Same here.... 
IF folks are going to get upset about plastic flags on cars during a football competition where all sorts of different nationalities are doing the same.... 

Then we are ALL truly knackered... 

Frankly the Welsh (especially closer to the border) are some of THE most nationalistic folks I've ever come across 

Are the English going to get upset about the Welsh crossing the border with red dragons on their reg plates and windows? 

To be honest the way things are sounding at the moment I'm thinking of staying closer to home and not spending a solitary groat further abroad than my local area or taking advantage of my 'dual nationality status (Mrs is from Yorkshire)' and spunking wads of cash where its happily received on the East Yorkshire coast where we got nothing but warm welcomes and friendly enthusiastic locals. 

Maybe Wales and Scotland can give me a ring when they are desperate for some coin again..... 

(Disclaimer.... 
The above is mostly tongue in cheek 
As we have rarely if ever had anything but a warm welcome in Wales/Scotland by the local folks we have met in the secluded corners we usually seek out)


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## Robmac (Aug 16, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> Same here....
> IF folks are going to get upset about plastic flags on cars during a football competition where all sorts of different nationalities are doing the same....
> 
> Then we are ALL truly knackered...
> ...



I was thinking to myself just how many Welsh flags you see in England when they play us at Rugby, and I've never known it cause a problem.

They wear Welsh shirts in my local for the games and the most you ever get is a bit of banter which I thoroughly enjoy.


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## Fisherman (Aug 16, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I was thinking to myself just how many Welsh flags you see in England when they play us at Rugby, and I've never known it cause a problem.
> 
> They wear Welsh shirts in my local for the games and the most you ever get is a bit of banter which I thoroughly enjoy.


Up here Rob they stopped flying Scottish flags and started flying Italian ones for the final. As Wully said we promised the Italians if they beat England we would stop deep frying their pizzas. A real shame as this Scottish delicacy is now no longer available.


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## alcam (Aug 17, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Sadly some of your experiences may be down to the attitude of some English visitors who e.g. arrive during a World Cup in which Wales were also participating with their plastic England flags on their cars!
> There are also the minority of English visitors who act like they own the place, although sadly many of them now do! ;-) (Another problem in Gwynedd that the council are trying to wrestle with.)
> 
> It struck me since posting the comments that Gwynedd Council may have shot themselves in the foot by closing most of the public toilets in the county to save money. Doing that and then wondering why *some* visitors make alternative arrangements ought to give them pause for thought.
> ...


Not sure how you could respond to that statement . It is all over the place . The man appears to be arguing with himself .


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## Robmac (Aug 17, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Up here Rob they stopped flying Scottish flags and started flying Italian ones for the final. As Wully said we promised the Italians if they beat England we would stop deep frying their pizzas. A real shame as this Scottish delicacy is now no longer available.



I had 2 football experiences in Scotland Bill.

One was when I was in the work van during a world cup and I had the St George's flag in the rear window and some idiot tried to run me off the M74.

The second was at Fort Augustus when England were actually playing Scotland in a friendly. I got drinking in the pub by the flight of locks with a Scotsman called Dougal. He suggested we went to another pub to watch the match with his mates. I wore an England shirt and we had a great night. Lots of light hearted banter, even after the end of the game which England won. Sure I got some stick, but as I say all light hearted.


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## trevskoda (Aug 17, 2021)

Always trouble here after a match, cars burned/damaged house windows smashed riots and police everywhere, tax payer out of pocked again.


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## MrSoapsud (Aug 17, 2021)

Thanks to @Fisherman for actually providing an answer to the serious question. £15 a night for a space in a car park with some facilities makes the pub in the Cotswolds who wanted to charge me £20 for hard standing, hookup etc on their campsite seem reasonable, except that I just wanted a space in their car park and a few beers.

Now would anyone else like to comment on the question I asked:
"Does "the team" have a feel for the proportion of "responsible" motorhome/campervan owners who like to pay to stay on sites with all the facilities against those who avoid sites? Would a reasonable proportion of the latter pay a small amount to use something akin to an Aire?"
Thanks
Martin


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## Fisherman (Aug 17, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I had 2 football experiences in Scotland Bill.
> 
> One was when I was in the work van during a world cup and I had the St George's flag in the rear window and some idiot tried to run me off the M74.
> 
> The second was at Fort Augustus when England were actually playing Scotland in a friendly. I got drinking in the pub by the flight of locks with a Scotsman called Dougal. He suggested we went to another pub to watch the match with his mates. I wore an England shirt and we had a great night. Lots of light hearted banter, even after the end of the game which England won. Sure I got some stick, but as I say all light hearted.


I always support England unless they are playing any other home nation or Ireland (my dad was Irish). But that’s because I normally support the underdog. But when playing anyone else I support the auld enemy.
I remember well 1970 when England threw away a two goal lead against Germany and went out losing 3-2, I was 15 at the time and I was upset by that result. I always thought that was England’s best ever team.
But what puts many Scots of supporting England is your media.
Even in cricket they can be a pain.
Only yesterday they were making fun of India’s tale enders, telling us how useless they were, and just look what happened, they went on to put on over 80 runs before Koli declared and the rest is history.


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## mark61 (Aug 17, 2021)

I don't follow football, but I used to enjoy going to my local to support England, but mainly to upset the “locals”   

Even up too, say five years ago, the manager would remove any England stuff the brewery had sent out, beer mats etc.  Bar staff would put them out, a punter would complain, and they'd be removed. I'd then complain, and told to shut up, only not so politely.


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## trevskoda (Aug 17, 2021)

I dont follow f ball, if I had my way it would be banned as the town looks like a ww2 battlefield after a match, pubs should be closed on that day to, and carryouts taken of yobs, harch but a fact.


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## Shrimpy (Aug 18, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> View attachment 100700


I have seen a lot of these signs and slept peacefully by a few of them now. I have yet to read a post from anyone who has been challenged. The new camping bill specifically states that in order for an offence to be committed you will have to have caused or be likely to cause significant harm or distress before the police could ask you to move or have the power to seize your vehicle.  That would never happen with 99.9% of us. Its aimed squarely at a certain community that at times cause havoc. I agree that these signs are a bluff aimed at exploiting peoples understanding of the law. Note that there is no mention of a penalty.


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## Tookey (Aug 18, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Thanks to @Fisherman for actually providing an answer to the serious question. £15 a night for a space in a car park with some facilities makes the pub in the Cotswolds who wanted to charge me £20 for hard standing, hookup etc on their campsite seem reasonable, except that I just wanted a space in their car park and a few beers.
> 
> Now would anyone else like to comment on the question I asked:
> "Does "the team" have a feel for the proportion of "responsible" motorhome/campervan owners who like to pay to stay on sites with all the facilities against those who avoid sites? Would a reasonable proportion of the latter pay a small amount to use something akin to an Aire?"
> ...


I suspect the answer to your query is 'dont know'. Only a tiny percentage of motorhomers use this forum and many of them rarely post, I have a 'feel' for what regular posters do (wilding/site mix) but that would still lack accuracy. 'Responsible' motorhomes by very definition have to discard their waste responsibly but what does that tell you with regards to proportions, maybe it means 100 % would use Aires   

The popularity of campra probably answers your aire query with the most accuracy.


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2021)

Shrimpy said:


> I have seen a lot of these signs and slept peacefully by a few of them now. I have yet to read a post from anyone who has been challenged. The new camping bill specifically states that in order for an offence to be committed you will have to have caused or be likely to cause significant harm or distress before the police could ask you to move or have the power to seize your vehicle.  That would never happen with 99.9% of us. Its aimed squarely at a certain community that at times cause havoc. I agree that these signs are a bluff aimed at exploiting peoples understanding of the law. Note that there is no mention of a penalty.


I cant play football anyway.


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## yorkslass (Aug 18, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Thanks to @Fisherman for actually providing an answer to the serious question. £15 a night for a space in a car park with some facilities makes the pub in the Cotswolds who wanted to charge me £20 for hard standing, hookup etc on their campsite seem reasonable, except that I just wanted a space in their car park and a few beers.
> 
> Now would anyone else like to comment on the question I asked:
> "Does "the team" have a feel for the proportion of "responsible" motorhome/campervan owners who like to pay to stay on sites with all the facilities against those who avoid sites? Would a reasonable proportion of the latter pay a small amount to use something akin to an Aire?"
> ...


I think a fair price to pay, for an overnight stop in a car park withought facilities, would be the same charge made for parking overnight for a car. If facilities are provided....water and emptying then an additional £5 seems reasonable.


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## Canalsman (Aug 19, 2021)

I am at present travelling around Gwynedd and these signs are very widely distributed. 

Tonight I'm parked at a favourite coastal spot with signs everywhere. The approach road half a mile away has a shiny new post with a shiny new no overnight camping sign, and the posts and signs have sprouted like wild mushrooms around the parking area. Presumably the council tax payers are footing the bill for all the signage and the manpower, or perhaps personpower, to install them all.

I'm ignoring them all. The upside is that these unenforceable signs have discouraged everybody else from overnighting here. I would have expected maybe four or five 'vans.


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## mistericeman (Aug 19, 2021)

Canalsman said:


> I am at present travelling around Gwynedd and these signs are very widely distributed.
> 
> Tonight I'm parked at a favourite coastal spot with signs everywhere. The approach road half a mile away has a shiny new post with a shiny new no overnight camping sign, and the posts and signs have sprouted like wild mushrooms around the parking area. Presumably the council tax payers are footing the bill for all the signage and the manpower, or perhaps personpower, to install them all.
> 
> I'm ignoring them all. The upside is that these unenforceable signs have discouraged everybody else from overnighting here. I would have expected maybe four or five 'vans.


So not long till there are height barriers installed then


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## Canalsman (Aug 20, 2021)

I am NOT camping. I am parking!


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## zigzaggy (Aug 23, 2021)

Mickrick said:


> I would also like to add that a few of the car parks I've visited have had brand new signs put up saying overnight camping bans I'm wondering whether this is all about getting set up ready to enforce new laws regarding parking without the landowners permission?


That's what I've been thinking too.


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## Fisherman (Aug 23, 2021)

Canalsman said:


> I am NOT camping. I am parking!


What in a car park, what’s the world coming to. Next we will have folk thinking it’s ok to drink beer in a bar, or eat your fish n chips on a park bench. Tut tut you need a severe talking to you scoundrel. No wonder we’re not the flavour of the month with such outlandish behaviour like that. Car parks are not for parking in, they're only there for dogs to crap on, boy racers to practice their handbrake turns, and for some folk to enjoy a barbie on one of our expensive barbecues.


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## Robmac (Aug 24, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I've politely asked the question to Gwynedd Council for clarification regarding these signs. I will see if they respond.
> 
> I don't particularly want to wind them up otherwise non legal signs (without TRO's) may all of a sudden be made legal (with TRO's). But my stance would be to avoid the car parks, ignore the signs and park discretely elsewhere.
> 
> If that didn't work, I like Snowdonia, but if I am not wanted there I will not be bothering them any more.



I got an acknowledgement for receipt of my email to them with a promise that they would respond within 5 working days.

Given that this was 3 weeks ago and still no response, I guess they're not going to bother.


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## Canalsman (Aug 25, 2021)

Obviously been consigned to either the "too difficult" tray or the "how do we answer this without giving the game away" tray ...


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## trevskoda (Aug 25, 2021)

Do they not have to reply by law within the time scale, take a case against them.


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## Robmac (Aug 25, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Do they not have to reply by law within the time scale, take a case against them.



I would Trev but I can't be arsed.


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Aug 25, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I would Trev but I can't be arsed.


Send a second email acknowledging that Covid has resulted in difficulties and delays but asking if their response has been formulated yet. That doesn't require a high level answer and usually gets a quick "yes" or "no" (with appropriate flowery apologies) followed by what you actually are looking for: it's a gentle reminder for them!

Gordon


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## Walkingmox (Aug 28, 2021)

I am curious reading this thread that Barryd says he spends a week in an Aire in Provence surely this is not permitted as it is only allowed to stay for a max of 3 days to allow other people to use the Aires? Or am I dense


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## iandsm (Aug 28, 2021)

I don't think your dense. Some aires have24 hours or  a max stay of three nights but over the last ten years I have been in France for four months of the year almost exclusively using aires. I have never seen to enforced Some aires usually very rural ones don't have any restriction, especially free ones.  Some are not very busy and some are rammed but when arriving at an air which is full you cannot tell how long those who arrived before you have been there. Just move on to the next one. I think if one is on a very busy wire it is  good practice to stay for two or three nights only but on an air that has lots of space I don't think it matters id you stay longer.


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## Robmac (Aug 28, 2021)

Walkingmox said:


> I am curious reading this thread that Barryd says he spends a week in an Aire in Provence surely this is not permitted as it is only allowed to stay for a max of 3 days to allow other people to use the Aires? Or am I dense



He's a bad lad that Barry.

Bit of an ageing mod by all accounts.


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## maingate (Aug 28, 2021)

Walkingmox said:


> I am curious reading this thread that Barryd says he spends a week in an Aire in Provence surely this is not permitted as it is only allowed to stay for a max of 3 days to allow other people to use the Aires? Or am I dense


The Aires that Barry prefers are off the beaten track and usually empty apart from him. No doubt he will be along soon with some photos.

His only company on one place was a mad axeman in the early hours.


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## wildebus (Aug 28, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I was thinking to myself just how many Welsh flags you see in England when they play us at Rugby, and I've never known it cause a problem.
> 
> They wear Welsh shirts in my local for the games and the most you ever get is a bit of banter which I thoroughly enjoy.


Funnily enough I bought a flag just yesterday  - Not a Scottish (where I live), English (where I was born) or Welsh (I'm half Welsh) one, but a Union Flag, as I consider myself British.  And bought to likely fly that at the International Campervan Show as I am sure there will be various flags of various Nationalities also flying - and why not indeed


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## barlicker (Aug 30, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> NOW that's a vastly different thing....
> 
> Take all the bits I said about Shell island after a, bank holiday and add being knee deep in bottles of Truckers tizer.... Grrrrr.


Yes I know what you mean try riding a motorcycle on the motorways and you think it's just started to rain !


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