# Hybrid motorhomes



## Moped (Aug 9, 2019)

With the shift to electric and hybrid powered vehicles taking place I would have thought motorhomes are a perfect vehicle for hybrid power as they are large enough to have decent sized batteries installed.

And the batteries could be used for powering up the motorhome accessories when parked up.

As well as having a roof covered in solar panels to top up the hybrid batteries when stationary or even when on the move.

And batteries could of course be topped up when on hook up.

As such it is a slight mystery that motorhome manufacturers seem slow to move in this direction.


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## mark61 (Aug 9, 2019)

Best they leave it to the people who actually manufacture vehicles, I think.


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## trevskoda (Aug 9, 2019)

A lot of makers are working on this now but will hold of to see if new and better/lighter batts come along plus faster charging times.


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2019)

Motorhomes have specific problems with being EV's or Hybrid which either don't apply to other vehicles, or governments are legislating to alleviate on other vehicles, namely weight. Most cars can be built heavier to take the extra weight, licences for commercial vans are touted to be changed to allow a heavier GVW, but many motorhomes already struggle to keep under 3.5t and government are not looking at changing the licence to allow driving a motorhome over 3.5t on a car licence.


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## trevskoda (Aug 9, 2019)

All the regs will require a update over the next few years,remember at first cars were taxed on hp before ww2.


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## Deleted member 74361 (Aug 9, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> All the regs will require a update over the next few years,*remember at first cars were taxed on hp before ww2.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Trevor
> 
> ...


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## runnach (Aug 9, 2019)

mark61 said:


> Best they leave it to the people who actually manufacture vehicles, I think.



Absolutely correct, sheer scales of economy,and amount required to invest in R and D makes it way beyond the scope of converters to make a feasible investment.

Alternative fuel vehicles are still in their infancy, to draw a paralllel perhaps where petrol vehicles were in 1910 ...the leaps made there have been astounding ,like electronics too last 50 years. THe solutions just around the corner. ....on a cheery note we probably will all be pushing up the daisies and doubtful we will see any significant revolution in our driving careers

Channa


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## trevskoda (Aug 9, 2019)

The yanks had a battery car tiller driven in 1911 with a 100 mile range at 28 mph, as ladies could not hand start engines,but in 1912 the first reliable starter motor was fitted in usa and the electric and steam cars died.
Electric cars/trucks are coming on leaps and bounds,if they get the salt silicon battery working well and into full time production all fuel veh will go into history books,and no you cannot bring any sand home from the beach to convert before you ask.


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## mark61 (Aug 9, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> The yanks had a battery car tiller driven in 1911 with a 100 mile range at 28 mph, as ladies could not hand start engines,but in 1912 the first reliable starter motor was fitted in usa and the electric and steam cars died.
> Electric cars/trucks are coming on leaps and bounds,if they get the salt silicon battery working well and into full time production all fuel veh will go into history books,and no you cannot bring any sand home from the beach to convert before you ask.



Yes, a little over 100 years ago it wasn't so clear if there was a future for petrol cars.

A brief history of electric cars: the most popular car of 1900 - Curbed


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## Fisherman (Aug 10, 2019)

channa said:


> Absolutely correct, sheer scales of economy,and amount required to invest in R and D makes it way beyond the scope of converters to make a feasible investment.
> 
> Alternative fuel vehicles are still in their infancy, to draw a paralllel perhaps where petrol vehicles were in 1910 ...the leaps made there have been astounding ,like electronics too last 50 years. THe solutions just around the corner. ....on a cheery note we probably will all be pushing up the daisies and doubtful we will see any significant revolution in our driving careers
> 
> Channa



Let’s draw another comparison the first Diesel engines that were to large for cars, and were used for ships and submarines. Then the technology improved till they could fit a Diesel engine into a truck and trains, then eventually into cars. In Germany today we have hydrogen fuel cell trains running, and it’s reckined we will have them to next decade. Possibly in 20-30 years we may find that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be on our roads.


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## Derekoak (Aug 10, 2019)

Moped said:


> With the shift to electric and hybrid powered vehicles taking place I would have thought motorhomes are a perfect vehicle for hybrid power as they are large enough to have decent sized batteries installed.
> 
> And the batteries could be used for powering up the motorhome accessories when parked up.
> 
> ...


Motorhomes have generators too all ready . An electric motorhome with reserve fuel tank and a generator as well as all the solar and you have a hybrid.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 10, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Motorhomes have generators too all ready . An electric motorhome with reserve fuel tank and a generator as well as all the solar and you have a hybrid.



The whole point is to get away from fossil fuels, how do you intend powering the generator.


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## spigot (Aug 10, 2019)

mark61 said:


> Yes, a little over 100 years ago it wasn't so clear if there was a future for petrol cars.
> 
> A brief history of electric cars: the most popular car of 1900 - Curbed




Interesting to point out here that Dr Ferdinand Porshe’s first project in the 1890s was an electric car.

That particular vehicle had an electric motor on each of the four wheels.


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## trevskoda (Aug 10, 2019)

spigot said:


> Interesting to point out here that Dr Ferdinand Porshe’s first project in the 1890s was an electric car.
> 
> That particular vehicle had an electric motor on each of the four wheels.



My grandfather used to say what goes around comes around,nothing new under the sun.


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## daygoboy (Aug 10, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Motorhomes have generators too all ready . An electric motorhome with reserve fuel tank and a generator as well as all the solar and you have a hybrid.



 that is funny. And workable, just fatally flawed of course.


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## colinm (Aug 10, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Motorhomes have generators too all ready . An electric motorhome with reserve fuel tank and a generator as well as all the solar and you have a hybrid.



Yep, that's exactly what a hybrid is, some like the Prius use a combination of electric and petrol engines to propel the vehicle, choosing whatever is appropriate for the driving conditions, others like the original Ampera use only electric motors to power the wheels, and a small petrol engine to run a generator to increase range when the batteries start to run out.


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## colinm (Aug 10, 2019)

Just remembered, a car manufacturer is launching an EV with solar roof, it's claimed this will power the car for 800miles per year if it's always left outside in sun.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 10, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Just remembered, a car manufacturer is launching an EV with solar roof, it's claimed this will power the car for 800miles per year if it's always left outside in sun.



2.2mls per day. not exactly impressive is it.


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## daygoboy (Aug 10, 2019)

A google of World Solar Challenge, now Bridgestone World Solar Challenge is worth 
a read to see where things are at the forefront of what can be done.
In sunny old Oz it's certainly viable to get enough solar energy to power competing vehicles
virtually endlessly, but with very specialised lightweight vehicles driven with utmost
care weighing next to nowt with a solar array over virtually the whole surface area. 
They even make use of road camber to maximise sun exposure!
There are restrictions so that cars compete within certain parameters such as max.weight
of batteries allowed etc. 
But it's a still a long way from solar panels supplying a 3.5t motorhome with enough energy
to be get anywhere near meaningful distances.
Even if solar panels were 100% efficient there's just not enough Wattage to be collected 
from the sun per m2 of solar panel.


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## daygoboy (Aug 10, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> 2.2mls per day. not exactly impressive is it.



Oh I don't know, 800 miles per annum, would be considered more than enough 
mileage for some motorhomers!!


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## martinmartin (Aug 10, 2019)

Moped said:


> With the shift to electric and hybrid powered vehicles taking place I would have thought motorhomes are a perfect vehicle for hybrid power as they are large enough to have decent sized batteries installed.
> 
> And the batteries could be used for powering up the motorhome accessories when parked up.
> 
> ...



Personally I think that it's a mystery because it's a complete nonsense for road going vehicles to be electric, bicycles yes but beyond that no. I do believe that the electric cars that are available at moment are really just expensive novelties.


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## trevskoda (Aug 10, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Personally I think that it's a mystery because it's a complete nonsense for road going vehicles to be electric, bicycles yes but beyond that no. I do believe that the electric cars that are available at moment are really just expensive novelties.



Well you had better get used to it,france 10 years to go and uk 20,then no more piston engines sold or registered,not that it will make much difference to many on here.:scared::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:


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## martinmartin (Aug 10, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Well you had better get used to it,france 10 years to go and uk 20,then no more piston engines sold or registered,not that it will make much difference to many on here.:scared::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:



It's all talk and won't happen.


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## Derekoak (Aug 11, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> The whole point is to get away from fossil fuels, how do you intend powering the generator.



You are missing the OPs point! As a transition to fully electric a hybrid feature allows an electric vehicle to cross gaps in the not yet fully complete recharge grid.
 One can imagine my suggestion being possible and as the recharge grid becomes complete the generator and fuel tank can be removed.


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## Derekoak (Aug 11, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Personally I think that it's a mystery because it's a complete nonsense for road going vehicles to be electric, bicycles yes but beyond that no. I do believe that the electric cars that are available at moment are really just expensive novelties.



I agree really. It will take a staggering increase in electricity generation to run everyones electric cars, let alone replace everyones gas central heating with heat pumps!  The alternative though will be public transport and very little motorhome mileage


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## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> It's all talk and won't happen.



Incorrect as its all done and dusted,you have been taking to much  tramadol pain killers which sends you dolaly,now where are mine.:scared::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:


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## ricc (Aug 11, 2019)

im with the sceptics.... there just isnt the electric generation capacity available.... how long has it taken to get hinkley c  nuclear plant through planning , its still years away from producing anything. 
   its just totally impractical to recharge vehicles parked on urban streets, youll need a public recharge point in every parking space  cos you cant park in youre own spot outside your own house every time.

then theres the fuel tax problem... take the tax on petrol and diesel out of the budget and the governments gone bust, unless they hike taxes on something else to make up the deficit.   i cant quite see any pm wanting to face the outcry when he puts fuel duty levels of tax onto electricity... unless your smart meter is going to just tax whats used for vehicle recharging.

cost and weight of batteries is just to great for the power levels needed for heavy commercial vehicles, not to mention recharge times.

as an engineer i feel electric propulsion is more  suited to light weight vehicles on  short range trips ,not heavyweight commercials running all hours god gave.


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## Nabsim (Aug 11, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Incorrect as its all done and dusted,you have been taking to much  tramadol pain killers which sends you dolaly,now where are mine.:scared::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:



What do you think the French car industry will do to the French government in ten years if they haven’t got a viable alternative Trev?

Let’s not forget the French put in legislation that nobody follows, they simply ignore it if they don’t like it.

As someone who has all electric heating in an old damp house I can tell you if we go all electric there will be a lot more folks on the streets as the costs are extortionate.


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2019)

It’s never been the intention for everyone to have electric cars. Private transport will be reserved for the few, EU officials, top MP’s, the most progressive civil servants, and the 0.5 % ers. They don’t want to share the roads with the general public, who are too stupid to have the freedom to drive around willy nilly. Walking or electric bikes for the rest, and don’t go thinking you can go get a horse, they’ll be banned on environmental issues too.


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## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2019)

Nabsim said:


> What do you think the French car industry will do to the French government in ten years if they haven’t got a viable alternative Trev?
> 
> Let’s not forget the French put in legislation that nobody follows, they simply ignore it if they don’t like it.
> 
> As someone who has all electric heating in an old damp house I can tell you if we go all electric there will be a lot more folks on the streets as the costs are extortionate.



Well its going to happen as the paperwork is sorted in law,as for trucks the yanks have some with 2000hp lecy motor covering a huge millage which when the driver has his break it can be charged to 80%,remember we have 20 years to get it right,and as for power why do you think there are so many wind farms and water turbines getting build all around the country.
Never mind the global warming due to burning fos fuels,the polar caps are melting at a very fast rate due to this,we must stop now and take action before its to late.:scared:


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## eddyt (Aug 11, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Let’s draw another comparison the first Diesel engines that were to large for cars, and were used for ships and submarines. Then the technology improved till they could fit a Diesel engine into a truck and trains, then eventually into cars. In Germany today we have hydrogen fuel cell trains running, and it’s reckined we will have them to next decade. Possibly in 20-30 years we may find that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be on our roads.



hi
    we already have hydrogen cars on the road over here. Honda make one as do Hyundai and another company i cant
   remember. i
      i dont know where they fill up though because ive never seen a pump. probably just down London.


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## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> I agree really. It will take a staggering increase in electricity generation to run everyones electric cars, let alone replace everyones gas central heating with heat pumps!  The alternative though will be public transport and very little motorhome mileage



Its reckoned you would require three nuclear power stations to produce the energy required for all of these electric vehicles.
But it's not that simple an equation. Our network would have to be upgraded to cope with demand at peak times, and some properties are not suitable for recharging equipment to be installed.
Then where are all of the batteries going to come from, and when they are done were will we put them all.

I think hydrogen fuel cell will be the holy grail, but that is decades away from being available on cars and small commercial vehicles like our vans.


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## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2019)

Think what you like but GB and all other countries have put pen to paper and its electric,unless something better comes along soon to change there mind,but if you look around lecy points are all over the place and there is at least 6 within walking distance of my home plus some homes have solar and charge points now.


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## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2019)

eddyt said:


> hi
> we already have hydrogen cars on the road over here. Honda make one as do Hyundai and another company i cant
> remember. i
> i dont know where they fill up though because ive never seen a pump. probably just down London.



What are hydrogen fuel cell cars? | Carbuyer


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## colinm (Aug 11, 2019)

The UK won't have any insurmountable problems with recharging cars, the capacity is pretty much there already, although when all the coal stations shut down that will be a challenge.
When people look at everyone charging their cars at the same time it looks bad, but all of you will recall when we have petrol shortage scares and everyone tries to fill up their car that doesn't work either.


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2019)

Merc realesed a few details of a fuel cell Hymer about a year ago.  Not seen one on the road though


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## Derekoak (Aug 11, 2019)

mark61 said:


> Merc realesed a few details of a fuel cell Hymer about a year ago.  Not seen one on the road though



Hydrogen for the fuel cells will be made by using electricity to hydrolyse water,  so it will not make much difference to the generation needed. Although it would ease grid timing load. Cutting all fossil fuels for electricity generation whilst running hydrogen or straight electricity cars and then cutting gas for central heating will certainly be a challenge.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 11, 2019)

colinmd said:


> The UK won't have any insurmountable problems with recharging cars, the capacity is pretty much there already, although when all the coal stations shut down that will be a challenge.
> When people look at everyone charging their cars at the same time it looks bad, but all of you will recall when we have petrol shortage scares and everyone tries to fill up their car that doesn't work either.



We can't meet our own demands now without buying from France never mind in the future and they have signed to buy more. As fisherman said we need at least 3 Nuclear plants it we are not going to be held to ransom. They didn't put all them smart meters in for no reason, they will be able to have planned power cuts  to homes without harming businesses.


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## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Hydrogen for the fuel cells will be made by using electricity to hydrolyse water,  so it will not make much difference to the generation needed. Although it would ease grid timing load. Cutting all fossil fuels for electricity generation whilst running hydrogen or straight electricity cars and then cutting gas for central heating will certainly be a challenge.



Sorry Derek, but my post was based on information given out by the government.
It’s reckoned that we would need 3 nuclear power stations to power all of the electric vehicles,

Also the fact that most people would want to charge their vehicles at the same time would put great strain on the grid, which needs to be upgraded to handle this. Hydrogen fuel cell avoids all of these issues. But it still requires batteries


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## RV2MAX (Aug 11, 2019)

I am starting a planned investment into this firm as I see quite a market , also the towbar industry


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## colinm (Aug 11, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> We can't meet our own demands now without buying from France never mind in the future and they have signed to buy more. As fisherman said we need at least 3 Nuclear plants it we are not going to be held to ransom. They didn't put all them smart meters in for no reason, they will be able to have planned power cuts  to homes without harming businesses.



As I type this the UK has around 20GW of spare capacity, but we have a net import of around 2GW (we also export), in winter these figures change a lot, but does it matter where we buy in electricity? after all we also buy in oil and gas.


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## Derekoak (Aug 11, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Sorry Derek, but my post was based on information given out by the government.
> It’s reckoned that we would need 3 nuclear power stations to power all of the electric vehicles,
> 
> Also the fact that most people would want to charge their vehicles at the same time would put great strain on the grid, which needs to be upgraded to handle this. Hydrogen fuel cell avoids all of these issues. But it still requires batteries



Some of  what you say is just  repeating what I said. Your 3 nuclear power stations is an estimate it could be 6 (just another estimate from a reputable source.) as I also said hydrolysis reduces strain on the grid.
 What you did not go on to deal with is all the other fossil fuel burning we do . Gas for the grid, and for home heating must be replaced,  from non fossil sources. There is no point replacing  internal combustion cars and not going on to replacing gas  use too.


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Some of  what you say is just  repeating what I said. Your 3 nuclear power stations is an estimate it could be 6 (just another estimate from a reputable source.) as I also said hydrolysis reduces strain on the grid.
> What you did not go on to deal with is all the other fossil fuel burning we do . Gas for the grid, and for home heating must be replaced,  from non fossil sources. There is no point replacing  internal combustion cars and not going on to replacing gas  use too.




Why is there no point. If you believe, for whatever reason, we should reduce our use of fossil fuels, then any reduction is an improvement.


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## Toffeecat (Aug 11, 2019)

I watched a really good programme on YouTube about an alternative. Hydrogen. It also has its problems though. My view on electric is its one of the most polluting fuels that can possibly be used given what it takes to mine the metals. process them,transport them then re process when they stop working. I used to work on big diesel engines so from what I see we have to change but to what is the answer

Electricity, Hydrogen, Diesel with Ad Blue. Hybrids Decisions decisions. Or we all walk, cycle or use space hoppers. That said, from what ive just experienced using our rail system, a space hopper doesn't seem such a bad idea. If we invested in top quality public transport it would make a difference like other countries do. But as its Britain and we've flogged off all our infrastructure to profiteering corporations, what we get is do it for the cheapest you can do and make as much money as you can.


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## Derekoak (Aug 11, 2019)

mark61 said:


> Why is there no point. If you believe, for whatever reason, we should reduce our use of fossil fuels, then any reduction is an improvement.



Any reduction is an improvement, there is a point to that alone yes. However Will that reduction be enough? My understanding is we all must leave all fossil fuels in the ground as soon as possible. Vicious cycles are already showing that global predictive modelling of climate change was showing only part of the problem.


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## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2019)

They are working on a salt silicate battery,when they crack that we are home and dry,so im thinking of buying as many beaches as i can then sell the mining rights,fact is the crown own most of the shore line.:king:


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## Fazerloz (Aug 11, 2019)

colinmd said:


> As I type this the UK has around 20GW of spare capacity, but we have a net import of around 2GW (we also export), in winter these figures change a lot, but does it matter where we buy in electricity? after all we also buy in oil and gas.



If we in such a great place capacity wise. Why did the UK have to import a total of 21.4 TWh [terawatt hours] and only manage to export a total of 2.2 TWh 1.6 of that to Ireland who in turn managed to export 1.7TWh back to the UK in 2018. When UK generation fell to its lowest since 1994 and has been on the decline since 2005.
Do you want the EU to be able to turn your lights off if they have partial control of the electricity supply or dictate price.

Could be of interest to some GB Fuel type power generation production


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## daygoboy (Aug 11, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> They are working on a salt silicate battery,when they crack that we are home and dry,so im thinking of buying as many beaches as i can then sell the mining rights,fact is the crown own most of the shore line.:king:



So if you're caught nicking the sand with your bucket and spade the
Queen can land you with an  A Salt and Battery Charge Trev.


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## martinmartin (Aug 11, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Well its going to happen as the paperwork is sorted in law,as for trucks the yanks have some with 2000hp lecy motor covering a huge millage which when the driver has his break it can be charged to 80%,remember we have 20 years to get it right,and as for power why do you think there are so many wind farms and water turbines getting build all around the country.
> Never mind the global warming due to burning fos fuels,the polar caps are melting at a very fast rate due to this,we must stop now and take action before its to late.:scared:



Manmade global warming is another nonsense trev,ten thousand years ago Britain was under half a kilometre of ice, the earth warms and cools naturally.


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Manmade global warming is another nonsense trev,ten thousand years ago Britain was under half a kilometre of ice, the earth warms and cools naturally.



No! Don't go upsetting people with facts like that. Don't you know temperature rises can only be valid if they occur after the mini ice age, and please don't go mentioning the period known as the Younger Dryas,  :lol-053:


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## Fisherman (Aug 11, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> Some of  what you say is just  repeating what I said. Your 3 nuclear power stations is an estimate it could be 6 (just another estimate from a reputable source.) as I also said hydrolysis reduces strain on the grid.
> What you did not go on to deal with is all the other fossil fuel burning we do . Gas for the grid, and for home heating must be replaced,  from non fossil sources. There is no point replacing  internal combustion cars and not going on to replacing gas  use too.



Of course we have to rely less on coal and gas fired power stations, that is stating the obvious. Hence the massive investment on renewable sources. But to suggest that we could charge millions of electric vehicles with no additional output is bonkers. Obviously this additional power has to come from somewhere, what’s up for debate is from where and how much. Also it’s not my estimate of three nuclear power stations I leave such calculations to those who know best. Also I did not go into discuss the benefits of many things to numerous to name, because I thought this thread was discussing alternative means of powering vehicles.


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## martinmartin (Aug 11, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> They are working on a salt silicate battery,when they crack that we are home and dry,so im thinking of buying as many beaches as i can then sell the mining rights,fact is the crown own most of the shore line.:king:



It won't happen, they'll have you believe in perpetual motion next. I do believe they're working on shrinking quadrillions of positively charged lepricorn into a working battery.


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## trevskoda (Aug 11, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> It won't happen, they'll have you believe in perpetual motion next. I do believe they're working on shrinking quadrillions of positively charged lepricorn into a working battery.



True but they do have small torch battery cells working,they hold 5 times the charge of normal batterys and can be fast charged,mind you getting from a lab to production may take many years.


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## colinm (Aug 12, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> If we in such a great place capacity wise. Why did the UK have to import a total of 21.4 TWh [terawatt hours] and only manage to export a total of 2.2 TWh 1.6 of that to Ireland who in turn managed to export 1.7TWh back to the UK in 2018. When UK generation fell to its lowest since 1994 and has been on the decline since 2005.
> Do you want the EU to be able to turn your lights off if they have partial control of the electricity supply or dictate price.
> 
> Could be of interest to some GB Fuel type power generation production


For the vast majority of the time we don't need the cross channel links for capacity purposes, we use them to offset CO2, the alternative would be to import more gas or fire up the coal stations.


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## Fisherman (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> For the vast majority of the time we don't need the cross channel links for capacity purposes, we use them to offset CO2, the alternative would be to import more gas or fire up the coal stations.



If in future years millions of us wish to charge our vehicles from the national grid after work we will need both additional capacity and improvements in the network to cope with this demand. According to the experts we will require 3 nuclear power stations and possibly more as more of us switch to electric. Due to the fact that renewables are unreliable and that currently we cannot store vast amounts of electricity this can only reliably be facilitated by non renewable sources.
Currently the grid struggles with supply when certain tv programmes are running, due to the fact that many switch on their kettles to make a hot drink. Just think what would happen with current levels of supply if millions of us started to charge our vehicles.

Only last week we had a million losing their supply due to two power stations shutting down, a gas turbine plant, and an a coastal wind farm this resulted in only a five percent drop in output, which we could not cope with. There are times when the grid struggles to supply us, and without new power plants coming in line in the next few years, we will see an increase of events like last week. And all of this without millions trying to charge large capacity vehicles.


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## colinm (Aug 12, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> If in future years millions of us wish to charge our vehicles from the national grid after work we will need both additional capacity and improvements in the network to cope with this demand. According to the experts we will require 3 nuclear power stations and possibly more as more of us switch to electric. Due to the fact that renewables are unreliable and that currently we cannot store vast amounts of electricity this can only reliably be facilitated by non renewable sources.
> Currently the grid struggles with supply when certain tv programmes are running, due to the fact that many switch on their kettles to make a hot drink. Just think what would happen with current levels of supply if millions of us started to charge our vehicles.
> 
> Only last week we had a million losing their supply due to two power stations shutting down, a gas turbine plant, and an a coastal wind farm this resulted in only a five percent drop in output, which we could not cope with. There are times when the grid struggles to supply us, and without new power plants coming in line in the next few years, we will see an increase of events like last week. And all of this without millions trying to charge large capacity vehicles.



Yes we will need more reliable supplies than wind which sometimes is pretty useless, and yes we will need extra capacity if EV's become dominant.

Other than that the events you describe are nothing to do with overall capacity, they are all about fluctuations in demand or supply, last week when a million people lost power there was huge reserves of capacity, but it wasn't fired up ready to go.


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## trevskoda (Aug 12, 2019)

They wont use power stations,new power will be from wind wave & solar ,my mate has a vw lecy and charges from his solar roof panels with no bother in summer.
So tide wave power will make up once they get the finger out and as we all know with our gov it will be a last min panic as normal.:rolleyes2:


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## Derekoak (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Yes we will need more reliable supplies than wind which sometimes is pretty useless, and yes we will need extra capacity if EV's become dominant.
> 
> Other than that the events you describe are nothing to do with overall capacity, they are all about fluctuations in demand or supply, last week when a million people lost power there was huge reserves of capacity, but it wasn't fired up ready to go.



There are possibilities of flattening wind variability and  coping with demand spikes with lithium battery banks, Now these are cheaper. In fact plugged in electric cars may be used for this purpose if supply technology gets smart enough. We surely dhould be offered cheaper electricity if we accept  charging offpeak.


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## trevskoda (Aug 12, 2019)

High tide low tide every six hrs, here is the future.


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## Fisherman (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Yes we will need more reliable supplies than wind which sometimes is pretty useless, and yes we will need extra capacity if EV's become dominant.
> 
> Other than that the events you describe are nothing to do with overall capacity, they are all about fluctuations in demand or supply, last week when a million people lost power there was huge reserves of capacity, but it wasn't fired up ready to go.



So you are going against the advice given by experts that we will need additional supply to cope with the demand. The fact is currently we don’t have sufficient supply to deal with what may lie ahead. I am not giving you my opinion, but the opinion of those charged with such issues. If you reckon that we can simply drum up all of this additional electricity without increasing supply then that is fine by me.


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## phillybarbour (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Just remembered, a car manufacturer is launching an EV with solar roof, it's claimed this will power the car for 800miles per year if it's always left outside in sun.



800 a year! Chocolate fore guard springs to mind.


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## colinm (Aug 12, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> So you are going against the advice given by experts that we will need additional supply to cope with the demand. The fact is currently we don’t have sufficient supply to deal with what may lie ahead. I am not giving you my opinion, but the opinion of those charged with such issues. If you reckon that we can simply drum up all of this additional electricity without increasing supply then that is fine by me.




I quite clearly posted that we needed extra capacity.


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## colinm (Aug 12, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> There are possibilities of flattening wind variability and  coping with demand spikes with lithium battery banks, Now these are cheaper. In fact plugged in electric cars may be used for this purpose if supply technology gets smart enough. We surely dhould be offered cheaper electricity if we accept  charging offpeak.




Tesla are fitting battery banks to their charging stations, but I'm led to believe they may be lead acid.


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## Derekoak (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Tesla are fitting battery banks to their charging stations, but I'm led to believe they may be lead acid.



Tesla powerpacks are fitted to the grid in some places they are lithium


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## colinm (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Tesla are fitting battery banks to their charging stations, but I'm led to believe they may be lead acid.





Derekoak said:


> Tesla powerpacks are fitted to the grid in some places they are lithium




A quick google brings up this.
Lead battery tech could make electric car charging cheaper | Autocar


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## Fazerloz (Aug 12, 2019)

colinmd said:


> For the vast majority of the time we don't need the cross channel links for capacity purposes, we use them to offset CO2, the alternative would be to import more gas or fire up the coal stations.




:lol-049:


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## ricc (Aug 13, 2019)

vehicle based solar charging is pie in the sky.   you just cant get enough panels on the vehicle.  i saw summit on tv recently about the race across australia for solar powered vehicles , even with purpose university built single seat light weight contraptions they struggle to get sufficient power even in australia's wall to wall sunshine.

though trev's mate in ireland seems to manage , i guess hes got his mansion roof charging his vw for his weekly trip to the shops


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## trevskoda (Aug 13, 2019)

ricc said:


> vehicle based solar charging is pie in the sky.   you just cant get enough panels on the vehicle.  i saw summit on tv recently about the race across australia for solar powered vehicles , even with purpose university built single seat light weight contraptions they struggle to get sufficient power even in australia's wall to wall sunshine.
> 
> though trev's mate in ireland seems to manage , i guess hes got his mansion roof charging his vw for his weekly trip to the shops



He uses his car every day,excess lecy goes back into the gride cutting his costs,his home is a 3 bed semi,winter he must draw from the grid,so about 60/40 on his side.


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## runnach (Aug 13, 2019)

Long term viability seems a problem with all alternative fuels , there seems serious flaws with all the contenders as we speak which need to be overcome whether it be the technology or infrastructure

Industrial financial might, may well dictate what happens and that is not necessarily the best outcome for fuel alternatives 

History suggests always been the case examples Windows v Linux > Tesla v Edison , VHS v beta max the point being the most effective solutions are not always the ones that reach the top of the game 

Channa


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## Fazerloz (Aug 13, 2019)

World wide Fossil fuel consumption is still increasing every year and until the likes of China, India, Russia, USA, etc get on board all this tiny country is doing is paying a heavy price to piss in the wind. Does anyone think all the major oil, gas producing countries are going to happily stop peddling gas and oil.


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## daygoboy (Aug 13, 2019)

ricc said:


> vehicle based solar charging is pie in the sky.   you just cant get enough panels on the vehicle.  i saw summit on tv recently about the race across australia for solar powered vehicles , even with purpose university built single seat light weight contraptions they struggle to get sufficient power even in australia's wall to wall sunshine.
> 
> though trev's mate in ireland seems to manage , i guess hes got his mansion roof charging his vw for his weekly trip to the shops




Post #19, gives some idea of what it's about.


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## Fisherman (Aug 13, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> World wide Fossil fuel consumption is still increasing every year and until the likes of China, India, Russia, USA, etc get on board all this tiny country is doing is paying a heavy price to piss in the wind. Does anyone think all the major oil, gas producing countries are going to happily stop peddling gas and oil.



I can not argue against what you say, we only contribute 2% of CO2 levels whereas the USA and China combined output is around 50%. But we have to take this serious, and I support countries including ours who are trying to prevent global warming. One day the big polluters will have to change their ways, but unfortunately it may be to late by then, and that time could well be sooner than later.


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## trevskoda (Aug 13, 2019)

Fuel and food will start the next world war which may well be the end as we know it.
It may have happened before.


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## Derekoak (Aug 13, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> World wide Fossil fuel consumption is still increasing every year and until the likes of China, India, Russia, USA, etc get on board all this tiny country is doing is paying a heavy price to piss in the wind. Does anyone think all the major oil, gas producing countries are going to happily stop peddling gas and oil.



I do not see that we are paying a heavy price being a little ahead of the game. There are advantages to being first. Any subsidies we have paid have been rewarded, our infrastructure is partially there.   We were in front of Denmark in wind power until the government cut subsidies, now Demark makes many wind generators not us,
. There are still advantages to be had from being ahead. Renewables are now cheaper per kw than many other fuels: coal, nuclear,  and not far behind gas.  So dont piss into the wind use it first! 
 No. oil companies are going to continue to fund obstructive politicians despite the obvious damage they are doing.  Saudi  has oil but also has massive solar potential. We must get them to diversify. Golbal heating will destroy places like The Saudi environment. They all need persuading. We should be the nation to do it. First with the industrial revolution early a with low carbon economy.
 China India and The US will be hit hard too. Russia might be the problem as they are not in the forefront of global heating damage. As Fisherman says we must try.


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## colinm (Aug 13, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I can not argue against what you say, we only contribute 2% of CO2 levels whereas the USA and China combined output is around 50%. But we have to take this serious, and I support countries including ours who are trying to prevent global warming. One day the big polluters will have to change their ways, but unfortunately it may be to late by then, and that time could well be sooner than later.



At the moment there are two problems, global co2 and local pollution. At this moment in time EV's or Hydrogen cell will only solve local pollution, it requires some serious will to sort out global co2, as you say any effort to try and sort it is a good thing, but like you i do worry that it may be too late before we see a real change.


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## martinmartin (Aug 13, 2019)

mark61 said:


> No! Don't go upsetting people with facts like that. Don't you know temperature rises can only be valid if they occur after the mini ice age, and please don't go mentioning the period known as the Younger Dryas,  :lol-053:



Ok,l wont mentioned the younger dryas but what about the older wetass period that will blight our summers.


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## colinm (Aug 14, 2019)

Well if this is the future for EV's I want one.
Introducing Lamborghini Terzo Millennio

The concept they are trying to work with could also see trucks powered by electricity, similar to the way some trams now use rechargeable and superconductors.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

The simple fact is right now all that's available is diesel, and that will be the case for a great number of years yet.
When I turn 70 in just over 5 years, I may move away from a motorhome to a van conversion.
I fully expect t to be buying a diesel then.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 14, 2019)

Derekoak said:


> I do not see that we are paying a heavy price being a little ahead of the game. There are advantages to being first. Any subsidies we have paid have been rewarded, our infrastructure is partially there.   We were in front of Denmark in wind power until the government cut subsidies, now Demark makes many wind generators not us,
> . There are still advantages to be had from being ahead. Renewables are now cheaper per kw than many other fuels: coal, nuclear,  and not far behind gas.  So dont piss into the wind use it first!
> No. oil companies are going to continue to fund obstructive politicians despite the obvious damage they are doing.  Saudi  has oil but also has massive solar potential. We must get them to diversify. Golbal heating will destroy places like The Saudi environment. They all need persuading. We should be the nation to do it. First with the industrial revolution early a with low carbon economy.
> China India and The US will be hit hard too. Russia might be the problem as they are not in the forefront of global heating damage. As Fisherman says we must try.




It's nice to know renewables a producing  cheaper electricity I look forward to a reduction in my electric bills. When do you think they will announce that one.?  Sometime never.


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## Derekoak (Aug 14, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> It's nice to know renewables a producing  cheaper electricity I look forward to a reduction in my electric bills. When do you think they will announce that one.?  Sometime never.



I am afraid nuclear is so full of problems that private companies (chinese and french) need us to bail them out for any cost over runs before they take new contracts up. So I would not hold your breath.  Push for government to allow land based wind turbine farms again . They produce the cheapest electricity.


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> The simple fact is right now all that's available is diesel, and that will be the case for a great number of years yet.
> When I turn 70 in just over 5 years, I may move away from a motorhome to a van conversion.
> I fully expect t to be buying a diesel then.



Well if you make 90 then you will see the last diesel sold in uk.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Well if you make 90 then you will see the last diesel sold in uk.



Exactly, but possibly  not in Scotland the SNP are talking about 2030

Any what's with the IF, of course I will make it to 90 :cool1:


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## colinm (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> The simple fact is right now all that's available is diesel, and that will be the case for a great number of years yet.
> When I turn 70 in just over 5 years, I may move away from a motorhome to a van conversion.
> I fully expect t to be buying a diesel then.




We expect to be buying another van in the next few years, like you I guess diesel will still be the only suitable option when considering long distance touring, but knowing my luck as soon as we get the new van someone will come out with some revolutionary new drive.


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Exactly, but possibly  not in Scotland the SNP are talking about 2030
> 
> Any what's with the IF, of course I will make it to 90 :cool1:



Yes scotland is going inline with france,and im sure you will make 90 just to keep your eye in.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Yes scotland is going inline with france,and im sure you will make 90 just to keep your eye in.



Who wants to be a Scottish car dealer in 2030 when we all go over the border to buy our cars.

They might need to rethink that one.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

colinmd said:


> We expect to be buying another van in the next few years, like you I guess diesel will still be the only suitable option when considering long distance touring, but knowing my luck as soon as we get the new van someone will come out with some revolutionary new drive.



I know, look at me, I just bought a new motorhome with a fiat ducato chassis.

A week after I buy it I hear that they are bringing out a Euro 6B model next year, with fully auto 9 speed box, start stop, 7inch display with vehicle size inputs, auto lights and wipers, auto brakes, and lane warning, etc etc:mad1:


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Who wants to be a Scottish car dealer in 2030 when we all go over the border to buy our cars.
> 
> They might need to rethink that one.



You will not be able to drive them unless they have been pre reged,it may be like price reduction time at asda.:scared:
Though you will find prices will have leveled and electric cars/vans will be same price as piston engine units.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> You will not be able to drive them unless they have been pre reged,it may be like price reduction time at asda.:scared:
> Though you will find prices will have leveled and electric cars/vans will be same price as piston engine units.



Ok lets look at the then Trev.

2030 I live in England and buy a diesel car.
I then move to Scotland one month after the ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars.
What would happen then.


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## mark61 (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Ok lets look at the then Trev.
> 
> 2030 I live in England and buy a diesel car.
> I then move to Scotland one month after the ban on sales of petrol and diesel cars.
> What would happen then.



You'll have to leave your new car behind. 

I'll look after it for you.


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## martinmartin (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I know, look at me, I just bought a new motorhome with a fiat ducato chassis.
> 
> A week after I buy it I hear that they are bringing out a Euro 6B model next year, with fully auto 9 speed box, start stop, 7inch display with vehicle size inputs, auto lights and wipers, auto brakes, and lane warning, etc etc:mad1:



Its a funny old world as all the things you list what you missed out on are excactly the reasons why I wouldn't buy one,I see it as just more stuff to go wrong and no doubt expensive to put right,perhaps auto box if reliable I could live with.


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## daygoboy (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I know, look at me, I just bought a new motorhome with a fiat ducato chassis.
> A week after I buy it I hear that they are bringing out a Euro 6B model next year, with fully auto 9 speed box, start stop, 7inch display with vehicle size inputs, auto lights and wipers, auto brakes, and lane warning, etc etc:mad1:



Never mind cheer up, your next change might have to be a no choice self drive all auto electric. Nice!


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Its a funny old world as all the things you list what you missed out on are excactly the reasons why I wouldn't buy one,I see it as just more stuff to go wrong and no doubt expensive to put right,perhaps auto box if reliable I could live with.



I have been driving my car with most of this kit for the past 5 years without a problem.

I remember when electric windows became the norm, similar comments were made.

Cars are more reliable than they have ever been with such technology, and a whole lot safer to.


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I have been driving my car with most of this kit for the past 5 years without a problem.
> 
> I remember when electric windows became the norm, similar comments were made.
> 
> Cars are more reliable than they have ever been with such technology, and a whole lot safer to.



Not sure about more reliable,my old soda which i converted back to carb and points never let me down in 314000 miles,many so called wiz cars just stop or go into crawl mode and always at going home from work time blocking rds,no rd side repair either as many are just taken to garages,and cost a lot to fix.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Not sure about more reliable,my old soda which i converted back to carb and points never let me down in 314000 miles,many so called wiz cars just stop or go into crawl mode and always at going home from work time blocking rds,no rd side repair either as many are just taken to garages,and cost a lot to fix.



Are the hand warmers on the rear window still working trev


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Are the hand warmers on the rear window still working trev



You are thinking of a ford,have a kit jago with a x flow ford,infact many engines and boxes,diffs,total s-*t.:hammer:


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## daygoboy (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Not sure about more reliable,my old soda which i converted back to carb and points never let me down in 314000 miles,many so called wiz cars just stop or go into crawl mode and always at going home from work time blocking rds,no rd side repair either as many are just taken to garages,and cost a lot to fix.



To get emissions levels down to the levels regulations are demanding means
engines are working to very close parameters, these days just a bit outside those limits
and it's limp home mode. I read recently that there's barely any scope for meaningful 
improvement, probably not without significant negative effects including cost.
Your car as well you know Trev. didn't need that kind of finesse, plenty of tolerance
and would still go. More than good mileage 314,000 for a petrol. Many engineers put the 
mileage longevity of engines these days down to advances in oil technology as much as advances 
in engineering.

Mind you that Skoda, wasn't like Triggers broom was it!


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> To get emissions levels down to the levels regulations are demanding means
> engines are working to very close parameters, these days just a bit outside those limits
> and it's limp home mode. I read recently that there's barely any scope for meaningful
> improvement, probably not without significant negative effects including cost.
> ...



True but an easy to service car,i turn timing up from 5 deg static to about 10 deg and carb idle set lean ,always passed mot,then round the corner set it up right again.:wacko:


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> You are thinking of a ford,have a kit jago with a x flow ford,infact many engines and boxes,diffs,total s-*t.:hammer:



Just taking the mickey trev, I know how much you like your car.


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## martinmartin (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> True but an easy to service car,i turn timing up from 5 deg static to about 10 deg and carb idle set lean ,always passed mot,then round the corner set it up right again.:wacko:



Mot time trev for the motorhome l wrap 4 one pound coins in black gaffer tape then tape the stack to the floor under the heel of the accelerator and that gets it through the emission test, it's worked for the last 8 years, the tester put me on to it when he said you don't floor it do you which I actually don't.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Just taking the mickey trev, I know how much you like your car.



Trev I have been driving the same make of car for 20 years now.
Apart from a gas mass sensor that I replaced myself after 130,000 miles I have never had a mechanical issue. That car was sold with 160,000 miles with the original exhaust, and the wiper blades had only been replaced once from 25,000 when I bought that car. I still drive them my current model is 5 years old with 90,000 and original wiper blades and no mechanical issues. 

When I think of what I drove before, cars that broke down, cost me thousands in repairs, they are better now than ever.


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## martinmartin (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I have been driving my car with most of this kit for the past 5 years without a problem.
> 
> I remember when electric windows became the norm, similar comments were made.
> 
> Cars are more reliable than they have ever been with such technology, and a whole lot safer to.



Electric windows! I'm still struggling with why on earth did we need auto choke. Ludosisam is still alive and kicking.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Electric windows! I'm still struggling with why on earth did we need auto choke. Ludosisam is still alive and kicking.



You and I are diametrically opposed Martin.
I love all the new tech, and I fully embrace it.
I am a car salesmen’s dream.


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## martinmartin (Aug 14, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> To get emissions levels down to the levels regulations are demanding means
> engines are working to very close parameters, these days just a bit outside those limits
> and it's limp home mode. I read recently that there's barely any scope for meaningful
> improvement, probably not without significant negative effects including cost.
> ...



Barley any meaningful scope for improvement l agree with but that won't stop the eurocrats from insisting manufacturers strangle diesel engines with contraptions that will ultimately be more complex than the engines that they are attached to.


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Trev I have been driving the same make of car for 20 years now.
> Apart from a gas mass sensor that I replaced myself after 130,000 miles I have never had a mechanical issue. That car was sold with 160,000 miles with the original exhaust, and the wiper blades had only been replaced once from 25,000 when I bought that car. I still drive them my current model is 5 years old with 90,000 and original wiper blades and no mechanical issues.
> 
> When I think of what I drove before, cars that broke down, cost me thousands in repairs, they are better now than ever.



You still wont put me of skoda, at 130,000 its a mer pup.:banana:


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## trevskoda (Aug 14, 2019)

martinmartin said:


> Mot time trev for the motorhome l wrap 4 one pound coins in black gaffer tape then tape the stack to the floor under the heel of the accelerator and that gets it through the emission test, it's worked for the last 8 years, the tester put me on to it when he said you don't floor it do you which I actually don't.



Short stop bolt behind acc pedal in van which i swap for longer one so the tester cannot rev above 2500 rpm.


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## Fisherman (Aug 14, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> You still wont put me of skoda, at 130,000 its a mer pup.:banana:



I am not trying to put you off Skoda, somebody has to like them.

You will know who had the largest car plant in Europe before the war, and where the Germans manufactured most of their lighter tanks. Shame what happed after the war.


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## mark61 (Aug 15, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I am not trying to put you off Skoda, somebody has to like them.
> 
> You will know who had the largest car plant in Europe before the war, and where the Germans manufactured most of their lighter tanks. Shame what happed after the war.



Tatra?


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

mark61 said:


> Tatra?



Skoda produced all of the Czech armies tanks, then tanks for the German army.
Tatra made trucks for the Germans.

The Skoda car factory was Europe’s largest pre war.


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## trevskoda (Aug 15, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I am not trying to put you off Skoda, somebody has to like them.
> 
> You will know who had the largest car plant in Europe before the war, and where the Germans manufactured most of their lighter tanks. Shame what happed after the war.



Drove them and sold them,i never had problems.


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