# Diesel Heater



## Moonraker 2 (Nov 22, 2019)

I looked up posts for deisel heaters before putting this post on and the only stuff that came up was written in 2013, I guess much has changed since then.

I have seen discussions about how these are quite good now, and pretty cheap £89 from China? However, I watched a u-tube video of how to put one in a small van like mine, and there is NO way I could achive that.

Is there anyone who has fitted a deisel heater themselves, and I wonder if anyone would be willing to do it for someone else??

I would so love to be warm in the spring and late autumn, winter i don't even bother.


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## QFour (Nov 22, 2019)

I fitted a Mikuni heater in a boat and it was very simple. Biggest problem was running the ducting as you had to be very very careful where you drilled holes. You need a feed for the diesel as they have a little pump that needs fitting well out of the way as they click. Everything came in the kit. You also need to find room for a silencer underneath somewhere.


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## Deleted member 56601 (Nov 22, 2019)

Lots about these on our sister site Motorhome Builder, HERE


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## Fazerloz (Nov 22, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> I looked up posts for deisel heaters before putting this post on and the only stuff that came up was written in 2013, I guess much has changed since then.
> 
> I have seen discussions about how these are quite good now, and pretty cheap £89 from China? However, I watched a u-tube video of how to put one in a small van like mine, and there is NO way I could achive that.
> 
> ...



Make sure whoever you get to fit it is competent because without a doubt the biggest problem with the Chinese heaters is people not installing them correctly. My Chinese heater is used as a garage heater at home and has now been running nearly on a daily basis, especially over winter since March 2018 without fault and no servicing in that time. I would not hesitate in buying another one if i needed one. Look on  facebook  for Chinese Diesel vehicle air heaters troubleshooting & parts sales. Someone near you will fit one for you.


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## linkshouse (Nov 23, 2019)

I fitted one in our van and it was a piece of cake and works a treat.

As Fazerloz suggests you can get loads of info at Chinese Vehicle heater on Facebook 

I installed ours to replace a Truma heater in our Hymer so connected the outlet to the existing air ducting from the Truma heater, and took the combustion air inlet and exhaust through the hole in the floor where the Truma burner had been.

As mentioned it is worth fitting a better silencer than comes with the kit but other than that everything was in the box.


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## phillybarbour (Nov 23, 2019)

Thinking about one of these to add to the van as I do take the van on ski trips.


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## trevskoda (Nov 23, 2019)

phillybarbour said:


> Thinking about one of these to add to the van as I do take the van on ski trips.


Like this.


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## bobj808 (Nov 23, 2019)

Agree with Runnach - my friend has had one installed (by ACLS) in his camper for a while - used a lot, mega cheap to run and been totally problem free. Certainly heats up his van quick and only needs a small gas bottle for cooking. He has the optional silencer fitted but did tell me at night he can hear the pump ticking when there is no other ambient noise. I see ACLS has upgraded this part to overcome this.


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## jeffmossy (Nov 24, 2019)

I have used a Chinese one for 3 years now with no issues , one of the best things we have ever purchased for our van , just press the remote control 1 hour before you get up and the van is all nice and warm for you


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## Moonraker 2 (Nov 24, 2019)

runnach said:


> This Scottish company have a good reputation, they also travel, worthwhile giving them a bell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks but I live in Sussex so I think a little far from Scotland


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## bobj808 (Nov 24, 2019)

Lucky you lol Bob


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## FULL TIMER (Nov 24, 2019)

bear in mind that a lot of the chinese heaters do not carry the CE mark, from memory I believe that those used by the Scottish company mentioned do but are more expensive than those generally purchased via ebay etc, not sure if not having the CE rating would affect insurance / claims but worth checking out before fitting one.


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## trevskoda (Nov 24, 2019)

I have a eberspacher unit in my bus since i bought her,it dont work and its so tight to the floor i cannot see how to get at the thing,its piped to main fuel tank which must be 1/3 full before it picks up oil.
Dos any one know how to open or work on them,no one here has ever seen them,may as well be a ufo.


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## FULL TIMER (Nov 24, 2019)

what model is it , I work on the  D4s & D2s, easy enough to work on these models the earlier models are different and pretty obsolete now. this is a good site to have a look through for loads of info  http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.uk/eberspacher_intro_1.html


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## trevskoda (Nov 24, 2019)

FULL TIMER said:


> what model is it , I work on the  D4s & D2s, easy enough to work on these models the earlier models are different and pretty obsolete now. this is a good site to have a look through for loads of info  http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.uk/eberspacher_intro_1.html


Have not a clue apart from it black squire and tapered at the ends,looks like a d4 but i ordered a vent end and it was to small,it clicks on and a very small amount of heat come out,i meen very small amount.
I cannot see a lid or service hatch and its wedged in beside seats at wall above fuel tank.


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## FULL TIMER (Nov 24, 2019)

if its a D4 or D2 the top of the heater comes off, you need to remove the round grill on the air inlet end of the heater and there are two clips that you just pop the top should then just lift off .


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## trevskoda (Nov 24, 2019)

FULL TIMER said:


> if its a D4 or D2 the top of the heater comes off, you need to remove the round grill on the air inlet end of the heater and there are two clips that you just pop the top should then just lift off .


Next day i will take a picy where it is hiding and post it here.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Nov 24, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Have not a clue apart from it black squire and tapered at the ends,looks like a d4 but i ordered a vent end and it was to small,it clicks on and a very small amount of heat come out,i meen very small amount.
> I cannot see a lid or service hatch and its wedged in beside seats at wall above fuel tank.


Download what you want from here Trev






						Other Useful Eberspacher Information | Butler Technik
					

Useful downloadable information for Eberspacher products including manuals, instructions, marine installation and workshop manuals.



					www.butlertechnik.com
				




Alf


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## Deleted member 56601 (Nov 25, 2019)

Trev, before you attack the heater it is worth checking/cleaning the fuel filter. If it's like mine, D4, it is inside the inlet union to the pump and is very small.


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2019)

Edina said:


> Trev, before you attack the heater it is worth checking/cleaning the fuel filter. If it's like mine, D4, it is inside the inlet union to the pump and is very small.


There is no way in or any space around it,one side tight up to wall and other side tight to a seat base,also no end caps that i can see,also seems fixed tight to floor and under floor the fuel tank is up tight so i cannot find any bolts or mounting points.


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## mistericeman (Nov 25, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> I have a eberspacher unit in my bus since i bought her,it dont work and its so tight to the floor i cannot see how to get at the thing,its piped to main fuel tank which must be 1/3 full before it picks up oil.
> Dos any one know how to open or work on them,no one here has ever seen them,may as well be a ufo.




All info regarding fault finding/controllers/servicing etc... 






						Eberspacher
					

You may be wondering why free independent DIY help on Eberspacher heaters is included on a commercial varnish and sander website.



					www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk
				




It's my go to resource for all things eberspacher


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## Fazerloz (Nov 25, 2019)

Anyone who has concerns over CE markings other heaters are available other than the vastly overpriced rip off eber and webasto units .


			https://planarheaters.co.uk/
		






						VVKB Apollo-V1 Parking Heater 12V 2.5KW FCC CE RoHS: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike
					

Buy VVKB Apollo-V1 Parking Heater 12V 2.5KW FCC CE RoHS at Amazon UK. Free delivery on eligible orders.



					www.amazon.co.uk
				



Whist dearer than the ebay chinese heaters still much cheaper than rip off eber/webasto.

Anyone wondering why Ebers and Webaso are so dear and i call a rip off,  this could be the reason. for this reason alone i will never knowingly buy any of their products. Webasto  wrongly avoiding a fine of   € 222,247,000  gets away scot free by selling out Eber








						Press corner
					

Highlights, press releases and speeches




					ec.europa.eu


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2019)

Goes on in every biz,esp the motor trade,sales men used to phone other dealers telling them about a customer they may have doing the rounds for a new motor,they told what they offered for there old car so cus got the same deal where ever he went,sneeky aint it.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 25, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Goes on in every biz,esp the motor trade,sales men used to phone other dealers telling them about a customer they may have doing the rounds for a new motor,they told what they offered for there old car so cus got the same deal where ever he went,sneeky aint it.


Yes it does Trev but fortunately i dont have to support those that i know have been taking the piss out of us for years


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2019)

Picys of my heater which on top says 3500,opened a small inspection plate and alls in there is the feed wire socket.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 25, 2019)

__





						Webasto Airtop 3500 | Service Manual & Troubleshooting
					

Read the owners manual for the Webasto Air Top 3500. Our Technical Library can help you troubleshoot, diagnose error codes and find spare parts.



					www.butlertechnik.com


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## spigot (Nov 25, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Picys of my heater which on top says 3500,opened a small inspection plate and alls in there is the feed wire socket.



The manufacturers must put these appliances in before adding the furniture & fittings.
My water heater had to go back to Trauma for repair, I literally had to take the van to bits to get the bloody thing out!


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## FULL TIMER (Nov 25, 2019)

With the webasto the whole heater would need to be removed to do any work on it , from memory it would be fitted to a plat that is already mounted and sealed to the vehicle floor, its been so long since I worked on them i can't remember exactly how the heater was fitted to the mounting plate, seem to remember some allen bolts going through the heater to the plate  under a panel or the top half of the casing, if you can follow the exhaust that should take you to the bottom of the heater .


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## Drover (Nov 26, 2019)

4 x 10mm from underneath. Between the inlet and exhaust pipes. The fuel line is in the same place....
My webasto is old but that's how its fitted, simple to remove if you can get under it.


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## trevskoda (Nov 26, 2019)

Looks like a job for spring time,dont fancy laying in rain at moment to remove as the fuel tank will have to come out,and it requires the holding straps shotblasted and painted,life never simple esp the older you get.Thanks for info .


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## n brown (Nov 26, 2019)

hi Trev,bit late to this .the heater is probably fixed from underneath. there are 4 threaded holes , as Fulltimer said , surrounding the exhaust and inlet pipes. the fuel pipe can be cut and sealed up , and the heater fed from a container of diesel for testing purposes.  this kit is handy for rejoining etc https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3mm-5M-Fuel-Pipe-Line-Hose-Clips-Kit-For-Eberspacher-Webast-Hater-Fuel-Tank-5m/303324383044?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item469f8ac744:g:jjEAAOSwljFdp2cW&enc=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&checksum=303324383044a077ef7ca1944a58bb3267e49217a3d3&enc=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&checksum=303324383044a077ef7ca1944a58bb3267e49217a3d3  the fuel pump is self priming . if you get the heater out it's not too bad to work on
does anything happen at all when you try to start it ?

ps-hope the link's long enough !


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## harrow (Nov 26, 2019)

3mm 5M Fuel Pipe Line Hose Clips Kit For Eberspacher Webast Hater Fuel Tank 5m  | eBay
					

Fuel Pipe Line Hose Clip Kit For Eberspacher Hater Fuel Tank. Designed specifically for the Eberspacher Heater. Fuel pipe length : 5m. Fuel pipe color : white. Fuel pipe outer diamater : 5mm. Fitted directly into the existing vehicle Fuel Tank or fuel tank Sender Unit.



					www.ebay.co.uk


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## harrow (Nov 26, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Looks like a job for spring time,dont fancy laying in rain at moment to remove as the fuel tank will have to come out,and it requires the holding straps shotblasted and painted,life never simple esp the older you get.Thanks for info .


Trev it looks like a job for your little boy, getting him started in mechanics


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## trevskoda (Nov 26, 2019)

Have all that piping and clips here as i use it on marine jobs,again many thanks for info.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 26, 2019)

Do not use rubber/nitrile/viton fuel line between pump and heater as the pump is a pulse dosing pump and the rubber types just flex when the pump pulses giving incorrect dosing into the burner. Use the type as in harrows link.


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## trevskoda (Nov 26, 2019)

Fazerloz said:


> Do not use rubber/nitrile/viton fuel line between pump and heater as the pump is a pulse dosing pump and the rubber types just flex when the pump pulses giving incorrect dosing into the burner. Use the type as in harrows link.


Message rec thanks


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## trevskoda (Nov 27, 2019)

n brown said:


> hi Trev,bit late to this .the heater is probably fixed from underneath. there are 4 threaded holes , as Fulltimer said , surrounding the exhaust and inlet pipes. the fuel pipe can be cut and sealed up , and the heater fed from a container of diesel for testing purposes.  this kit is handy for rejoining etc https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3mm-5M-Fuel-Pipe-Line-Hose-Clips-Kit-For-Eberspacher-Webast-Hater-Fuel-Tank-5m/303324383044?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item469f8ac744:g:jjEAAOSwljFdp2cW&enc=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&checksum=303324383044a077ef7ca1944a58bb3267e49217a3d3&enc=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&checksum=303324383044a077ef7ca1944a58bb3267e49217a3d3  the fuel pump is self priming . if you get the heater out it's not too bad to work on
> does anything happen at all when you try to start it ?
> 
> ps-hope the link's long enough !


Blows a bit with the heat of a match


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## n brown (Nov 27, 2019)

everything's working then , just not very well. there's often a little filter on the pump ,you might get lucky!


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## trevskoda (Nov 27, 2019)

n brown said:


> everything's working then , just not very well. there's often a little filter on the pump ,you might get lucky!


I wish.


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## Drover (Nov 27, 2019)

The older pumps had to be at 45 degrees to work correctly. Outlet delivery pointing up.also a inline filter that can easily block.
Is the air intake clear.
My new one is 10 years old, so not sure about their workings


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## Moonraker 2 (Dec 19, 2019)

Just had a reply from another recommendation who said, No they don't fit heaters. Going to give up now.


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## trevskoda (Dec 19, 2019)

Any good fitter should be able to do the job as having the tools,ask around any self build kit car people or a small add in paper.


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## Drover (Dec 20, 2019)

Just checked the webasto manual and it says the pump should be fitted vertical or 10 degrees either side from vertical.


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## Sharpie (Dec 20, 2019)

Everything you might need to know about the care and maintenance of diesel heaters can be found at https://www.youtube.com/user/johnmck1147/videos

These are the Chinese ones that are a copy of the Eberspachers and Webastos. They have identical mountings so are a direct replacement typically for under £100 for the complete system. By most accounts  reliable if used correctly. Basically you must run them flat-out periodically to burn off the internal soot buildup that occurs when they are ticking over at low outputs. The same applies to the German ones. There are only two moving parts, the fan/brushless motor, and the fuel pump. Not a lot to go wrong.

If your existing expensive German heater is not working properly, it may be much easier and far cheaper just to replace it with a new Chinese one rather than trying to diagnose the fault correctly, buy expensive spare parts, or even pay a specialist who knows what they are doing (not just a parts swapper) to fix it. It isn't cost effective to pay someone to do this.

Be aware that any diesel heater may perform poorly at high altitudes, they run rich and soot up, due to lack of oxygen, which can be a problem at e.g. ski resorts if used for long periods before descending and clearing them with a prolonged full-blast burn. The gas fired Truma seems unaffected, but sourcing and storing enough suitable LPG for an extended stay can be problematic. You need propane. Not butane, or a mix.

The Truma Combi diesel version uses an Eberspacher burner inside, and is a complete nightmare to service if you can find anyone who understands it, unreliable at altitude, and of course extremely expensive.

Continental autogas is problematic, usually a propane/butane mix even in winter. The propane is fine, but at low temperatures the butane content does not vaporise, leaving you with maybe half a tank full of useless liquid butane. I've experienced this after filling up abroad, then trying to use the gas in winter here. UK autogas is, I'm assured, 100% propane so has never been a problem.

Currently planning how to fit one underneath my Globecar and plumb it into the hot air ducting from the gas fired Truma combi. which could be quite complicated.

I could easily fit it internally,  but that would take up precious space. Since I have a 125 litre diesel tank it makes sense to think about this, and reserve the gas for just cooking, heating water for showers, and running the fridge, given the now reduced availability of autogas in the UK, particularly Scotland, since Shell have removed most of their autogas points and talk of replacing them with electric charging points. Not very useful to me.

Autogas makes sense at a fraction of the price of e.g. Calor cylinders, diesel heating probably costs twice as much as autogas, but I can get it anywhere. So Gaslow refillable (already paid for itself many times over) plus a diesel heater makes sense to me, and I enjoy planning a project.


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## Nabsim (Dec 20, 2019)

I was looking at some data sheets on the Eberspacher site earlier in the week and they state that once fitted you don’t need to touch them. All it says if not used then you should run it once a month. I know mine hasn’t been touched in the 22 months I have had my van and all seems good.

What is the maintenance they need and when?


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## Caz (Dec 20, 2019)

The Eberspacher on my Autosleeper failed, cost hundreds to get it repaired, luckily the insurance paid a good whack towards it. I had to take it to their nearest specialist repairer, 35 miles away. It took him hours of work and two goes at it to get it going properly again. He said it had never been serviced since new, 13 years old, and that was why it had packed up.


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 21, 2019)

Nabsim said:


> I was looking at some data sheets on the Eberspacher site earlier in the week and they state that once fitted you don’t need to touch them. All it says if not used then you should run it once a month. I know mine hasn’t been touched in the 22 months I have had my van and all seems good.
> 
> What is the maintenance they need and when?


The only  part that might need changing on  D2 / D4 models as long as filters don't get clogged up is what they call a plug strainer, this is an easy job to do as long as access to the top of the heater is ok, the glow pin has to be removed and the plug strainer is located in the bottom of the hole simply hook it out and replace with  a new one, you'll know if it needs changing as the heater will smoke quite badly on start up or even fail to establish a flame and then shut down. the most problems I have with the ambulances is overheating mainly due to staff blocking up either one of the warm air inlet/ outlets with a bag or something. Also worth checking the air inlet on the heater for a build up of fluff / hair etc as this could also cause the heater to overheat .


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## Sharpie (Dec 21, 2019)

From what I gather, from the youtube chap I referenced, there is no routine maintenance needed. However you do need to run them hard periodically to keep the soot buildup at bay.

The burner relies on a glow plug to start it, as well as a tiny fine wire mesh screen beneath the glow plug, fuel is delivered a drop at a time, hence the ticking from the pump, upon which the diesel is vaporised. If the wire mesh screen gets clogged it wont work.

 It seems that that the glow plug and screen are easily accessed on the Eberspacher design, should they fail, which seems rare when used correctly.

The Webasto design is not so easy, the whole thing has to come out and be taken apart to access these parts.

Start up and shut down is controlled by electrickery, and must be completed under full control. If e.g. your battery runs flat and whatever system you have just cuts the power, or trips the low voltage cutoff of the heater controller, then there is the possibility that the burner and even exhaust pipe, if incorrectly routed, could fill with diesel  with various dire consequences if the shut-down sequence from the controller is interrupted.

Shut down takes several minutes to complete properly. Start up, running and shut down all require steady strong electrical power to be maintained. You can't just turn these things on and off like an LPG powered heater that just uses a spark plug for ignition, minimal power.

Start up requires a lot of current to the glow plug, for a minute or two. If your batteries are low or weak they may not even be able to complete the startup sequence. Once running the only power draw is from the fan, which is still significant. You need a good electrical system to run one of these.

There is also a critical gasket that separates the burn chamber from the hot air that actually circulates inside the van, and should be isolated from the combustion products. If that fails then there is the possibility of CO getting into the hot air.

So these are not actually simple things, and need to be installed with care and thought, particularly the exhaust pipe routing and fresh air inlet pipe to the burner, (external to the van), then the hot air inlet and outlets inside the van. Noisy too, outside the van, lots of discussion about how to quieten this. The burner itself is not much different than say an old Primus stove with a roarer burner, same principle, diesel/paraffin/kerosene is vaporised on the tiny wire mesh piece then combusted by the forced air that the fan supplies.

The controller is supposed to regulate the airflow to the burner according to the power demanded, but as I said they don't compensate for altitude, temperature nor for air intake and exhaust restrictions, it's amazing how well they usually work, but in particular running one at say Zermatt, for a week or two continuously, will probably be problematic. A fellow camper relying on his Truma Combi Diesel found this out, cost him over £4000 for a complete replacement, it was so sooted up it couldn't be repaired, allegedly. plus fitting.

Putting one into a boat introduces a whole extra set of problems.

A professional e.g. Eberspacher installation on e.g a truck when manufactured should have addressed these concerns and should have been correctly maintained or at least regularly checked by the fleet services. And run within its design regime.

The Eberspachers have a tiny fuel filter incorporated into the pump. If your diesel is not winter grade, or  maybe poor quality it may gel up or just drop wax crystals when cold. Or even in summer, just contaminated, maybe by a bit of the gunge that grows on diesel (sailors know about this). Then of course they stop working. So a decent inspectable filter that can be easily drained of water and other contaminants is a good idea.

A DIY job with a £99 ebay heater done without much understanding could easily go wrong, I've seen some horrific incompetent installs on youtube.

Not the fault of the heater itself, as I said they seem to be generally well made straight copies of the originals, and the controllers are if anything rather more sophisticated, depending which one you choose.


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## Nabsim (Dec 21, 2019)

@FULL TIMER my D4 is mounted under the fixed French bed with pretty good access so if I need to get to the plug strainer it shouldn’t be too bad thanks. I can either access from above by lifting the bed or my preferred way would be through the external locker standing outside, what’s the betting it will either be throwing it down or a foot of snow if it’s needed though lol


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## Fazerloz (Dec 21, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Start up and shut down is controlled by electrickery, and must be completed under full control. If e.g. your battery runs flat and whatever system you have just cuts the power, or trips the low voltage cutoff of the heater controller, then there is the possibility that the burner and even exhaust pipe, if incorrectly routed, could fill with diesel  with various dire consequences if the shut-down sequence from the controller is interrupted.



How can this  possibly happen in a correctly installed unit as loss of power immediately stops the pulse metering pump and stops supply of fuel to the burner unit. The pump doesn't and can't carry on running down and filling the heater with fuel.


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## Sharpie (Dec 21, 2019)

If the power to the system is suddenly cut, pressure  will remain in the fuel line between the pump and the burner. As soon as the fan stops the flame goes out. The residual fuel then enters the burner. That's why the shut down sequence is required, during it the fuel pump is stopped, the residual fuel burned off safely and the fan then continues to run for a while to cool the unit.

Otherwise you have a red hot burner, with a quantity of unburned fuel inside, which then heat-soaks into the rest of the unit, maybe damaging the critical gasket I mentioned that is the only thing separating the burner and the hot air that circulates inside the van Maybe even cooking the electronics of the controller inside the unit.

A poor installation makes this worse. The pump should be as close as possible to the burner with the shortest possible run of the correct pressure tube which is inelastic to minimise the amount of fuel between pump and burner.

Likewise if the startup sequence fails, perhaps the glowplug doesn't get hot enough, maybe battery current insufficient or the wiring of insufficient gauge to handle the heavy startup current properly,  or the wire gauze is in poor condition, the unburned fuel enters the burner and even the exhaust pipe, where it can even pool inside if the exhaust run is incorrect. Repeated failed attempts to start the thing up just add more fuel and make matters worse. If you do eventually succeed in starting up you can expect a smoky smelly exhaust until this has cleared, as well as sooting up the burner


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 21, 2019)

As far as I am aware there is no pressure in the fuel pipe from pump to heater the pump is a solenoid pump and is always fitted below the heater when stopped there is no pulse so fuel stopped no pressure,  admitted the shutdown is not completed which is mainly to cool the hot heater down.


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## Sharpie (Dec 21, 2019)

Further: if planning to mount the heater under the floor of the van, as I am, the fuel line, pump and heater are all level with or below the diesel tank. If anything fails in this, there is the potential for the diesel to syphon through and trickle onto the ground, or even enter the heater. That would not make me popular. Potentially 125 litres of diesel contamination to the campsite soil to be rectified. Or just £150 of diesel spilled onto the road whilst driving along.

I doubt that my insurers would be sympathetic.

There are strict regulations about the fuel routing of vehicles to make sure this never happens. But once you bypass all this, maybe even just running a length of vinyl tube from B&Q from the drop tube that you have inserted into your exquisitely designed fuel tank after drilling a hole in the top, perhaps rigged up with cable ties, barbed connectors, bits of dubious rubber hose and the odd jubilee clip, exposed to damage by anything thrown up from the road, all bets are off.

Ideally there should be an isolation valve between the drop tube from the tank and the rest of the system, further complexity and you'd have to be in the habit of using it.

Hey-ho, you can see all these sorts of lash ups proudly presented on youtube by clueless amateurs.

My setup will probably instead use a steel jerrycan that just fits in the gas locker alongside the Gaslow cylinder as the supply. Filled up by either syphoning from the vehicle tank, or filling up at a service station.


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## Sharpie (Dec 21, 2019)

Actually there is some pressure between pump and burner. That's why they need the proper rigid tube in the shortest run. As the solenoid pump moves back bubbles form in the diesel under vacuum. From air, water but mostly volatile hydrocarbons present in the fuel. As it moves forward this gets compressed again but not fully re-absorbed. Hence the need for the pump to be mounted near vertical so that the burner remains fed with fuel, and the gas bubbles can rise up and flow through, rather than causing a vapour lock.

The entrained gas bubbles keep the fuel squirting into the burner after the pump has been stopped. Maybe not a lot, but fuel does continue to flow after the pump stops.

The controller knows about this and the startup sequence includes pump priming steps to try to minimise this. When correctly shut down the line from the pump to the burner should be devoid of most fuel, so start up requires it to be re filled.

If you run out of fuel then have to re purge the system  it can be slow or just impossible if the fuel run or pump installation is incorrect.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 21, 2019)

,My heater is mounted under the van but between the van floor and splash shields so not open to road dirt the heater ,pipe work and heater are above the fuel tanAs per manufactures instructions the pump is mounted between 15 and 35 degrees. The heater gets plenty of use as we use the van all year round it’s 13 years old stripping last year the heater looked like new they are designed for truck cabs where the running hours are far in excess of most motor caravan users.
All the heaters I have seen or heard about that are suffering low voltage seem to have been wired to the leisure battery and quite a few with undersized supply cable.

Alf



Sharpie said:


> Actually there is some pressure between pump and burner. That's why they need the proper rigid tube in the shortest run. As the solenoid pump moves back bubbles form in the diesel under vacuum. From air, water but mostly volatile hydrocarbons present in the fuel. As it moves forward this gets compressed again but not fully re-absorbed. Hence the need for the pump to be mounted near vertical so that the burner remains fed with fuel, and the gas bubbles can rise up and flow through, rather than causing a vapour lock.
> 
> The entrained gas bubbles keep the fuel squirting into the burner after the pump has been stopped. Maybe not a lot, but fuel does continue to flow after the pump stops.
> 
> The controller knows about this and the startup sequence includes pump priming steps to try to minimise this. If you run out of fuel then have to re purge the system  it can be slow or just impossible if the fuel run or pump installation is incorrect.


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## Nabsim (Dec 21, 2019)

I have a Hydronic that is mounted below the passenger headlight in the engine compartment and a D4 mounted at inner floor level under the bed. The D4 was professionally fitted by a previous owner (I have retired receipts) but pump sounds like it is in the engine compartment maybe 5 metres away.

The D4 has never failed due to low voltage but will fail if diesel level gets too low.


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## Fazerloz (Dec 21, 2019)

Alf said:


> As far as I am aware there is no pressure in the fuel pipe from pump to heater the pump is a solenoid pump and is always fitted below the heater when stopped there is no pulse so fuel stopped no pressure,  admitted the shutdown is not completed which is mainly to cool the hot heater down.



Quite agree with you Alf there is no residual pressure in the fuel line between pump and heater when the pump stops.  You can blow blow through the fuel inlet into the heater with very little resistance so there is no way to maintain any pressure once pump stops.


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## Fazerloz (Dec 21, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Actually there is some pressure between pump and burner. That's why they need the proper rigid tube in the shortest run. As the solenoid pump moves back bubbles form in the diesel under vacuum. From air, water but mostly volatile hydrocarbons present in the fuel. As it moves forward this gets compressed again but not fully re-absorbed. Hence the need for the pump to be mounted near vertical so that the burner remains fed with fuel, and the gas bubbles can rise up and flow through, rather than causing a vapour lock.
> 
> The entrained gas bubbles keep the fuel squirting into the burner after the pump has been stopped. Maybe not a lot, but fuel does continue to flow after the pump stops.
> 
> ...



Rigid tube is used purely to ensure correct dosage.
Cavitation bubbles only appear in positive displacement pumps on the suction side and as they enter the delivery side they disappear. So no bubbles should be seen in the delivery pipe. Unless the pump is pulling in air from somewhere and if so there is a fault either in the installation or the pump.
As the pumps can be mounted up to 6m away according to the installation manuals from the burner how do you get as you claim. 
"When correctly shut down the line from the pump to the burner should be devoid of most fuel, so start up requires it to be re filled"
Is all your knowledge of these heaters gleamed from youtube?


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 21, 2019)

The Eberspacher instruction say upto 10 metre maximum for pump distance from heater the only fixed distance is the vacuum draw to the pump. The standpipe in the tank in mine must be 50mm or so from the bottom I have had the heater fail once parked on uneven ground with a front to back and side to side slope.

Alf




Nabsim said:


> I have a Hydronic that is mounted below the passenger headlight in the engine compartment and a D4 mounted at inner floor level under the bed. The D4 was professionally fitted by a previous owner (I have retired receipts) but pump sounds like it is in the engine compartment maybe 5 metres away.
> 
> The D4 has never failed due to low voltage but will fail if diesel level gets too low.


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## Nabsim (Dec 21, 2019)

I don’t know what distance mine is set for but it’s approximately an eighth of a tank when it runs dry for the heater. That must have been when reasonably level as it’s done it twice and I know last time I was only a few degrees off level (unusually). I would expect the installer followed recommended specs but who can be certain without checking


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 21, 2019)

it’s set like that to save dragging the debris from the bottom of the tank and more importantly to leave fuel for the engine.

Alf



Nabsim said:


> I don’t know what distance mine is set for but it’s approximately an eighth of a tank when it runs dry for the heater. That must have been when reasonably level as it’s done it twice and I know last time I was only a few degrees off level (unusually). I would expect the installer followed recommended specs but who can be certain without checking


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## Fazerloz (Dec 21, 2019)

You live and learn. I haven't come across this one before . At roughly £70 for a D2 cheaper than I would have thought.
 From Eber manual.

The heat exchanger of air heaters is a component

subject to high thermal loads which must be replaced

10 years after initial commissioning of the heater.

In addition, the installation date must be entered

on the plate "original spare part" enclosed with the

heat exchanger must. Then affix the plate next to the

nameplate on the heater


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 21, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> If the power to the system is suddenly cut, pressure  will remain in the fuel line between the pump and the burner. As soon as the fan stops the flame goes out. The residual fuel then enters the burner. That's why the shut down sequence is required, during it the fuel pump is stopped, the residual fuel burned off safely and the fan then continues to run for a while to cool the unit.
> 
> Otherwise you have a red hot burner, with a quantity of unburned fuel inside, which then heat-soaks into the rest of the unit, maybe damaging the critical gasket I mentioned that is the only thing separating the burner and the hot air that circulates inside the van Maybe even cooking the electronics of the controller inside the unit.
> 
> ...


Filled many an ambulance station with smoke after attending to faulty heaters that people have had many attempts to start , due to the exhaust pipe getting soaked with fuel, surprising how many faces you suddenly see in what seemed like a deserted workshop 5 minutes before


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 21, 2019)

£77.45 from Butler Technic exchange I think.
although mine is 13 years old I don’t think it’s done the usage for exchange yet. I may make some enquiries though.

Alf



Fazerloz said:


> You live and learn. I haven't come across this one before . At roughly £70 for a D2 cheaper than I would have thought.
> From Eber manual.
> 
> The heat exchanger of air heaters is a component
> ...


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## FULL TIMER (Dec 22, 2019)

I've never seen one changed yet and certainly never seen the label / plate on any heater I've ever worked on, to be honest the motor or ECU is more likely to fail before that and at a cost of around £250 ish each if both need replacing as some do when a motor burns out its cheaper to replace the heater


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## Sharpie (Dec 22, 2019)

The pump is capable of sufficient pressure on the output side to cope with long pipes and vertical distances if necessary, though the burner itself needs hardly needs any pressure. The fuel basically just dribbles in at the rate that the pump doses.

On the inlet side it is reliant on the fuel feed being good.  Whilst it may be able to bleed itself if the tank has been allowed to run dry it has such a tiny displacement that this is undesirable and can be a lengthy process, it is best manually bled through first.

An installation of the pickup tube in a vehicle tank will not usually go all the way to the bottom, where contaminants, particularly water, will settle. Also to ensure that the tank cannot be entirely drained by the heater, leaving a reserve for the engine. However this means that if you do run the tank nearly empty that the heater will pick up air instead of fuel and fail.

The bubbles induced by the pump action are not from cavitation (a quite different phenomenon), they are from outgassing of volatile substances in the fuel during the low pressure cycle of the pump. If the pump is installed at the wrong angle they can even prevent it from operating by accumulating inside.

Even UK winters can get cold, I've wild camped in Scotland by a sea bay which had frozen over, hard enough that we could walk out on it. The Truma Combi 2 ran continuously, rated at 1950 Watts output, but it was still not particularly warm. More heat would have been welcome. It consumed about half a 13 kg Calor bottle in one day, judging by the frost line on it. I also had to run the generator for a while to replenish the battery bank. The 12V power consumption is ambiguously stated to be 1.1A "average". It must have been drawing rather more.

It is specified to consume 130g of propane/hour. I.e my 11kg Gaslow would be depleted in 3.5 days continuous running if true.

Frankly those numbers are implausible, 130g of propane only contains 1.66 kWh of energy, so the Truma would have to be 118% efficient to get 1.95 kWh of heat from it. In practice it seems to guzzle much more. And yes, it is working properly.

Delve deeper into the specification and they say that it consumes 6.9 MJ/h of propane to deliver 1950 Watts of heat. That's also impossible, 6.9 MJ/h is only 1917 Watts. Though that represents 143 g/h of propane which is ten percent higher than their headline claim.

Their numbers simply don't make sense, and contradict themselves. Either the heater puts out less than 1950 Watts, or it consumes more gas than specified. Or both.

Elsewhere they claim that it is 98% efficient. I don't think so, there's definitely more than 39 watts coming out of the exhaust, and is as high as even the best rated  domestic condensing boilers claim, with all their sophisticated technology.

1 litre of diesel (or 0.85 kilos) contains 10 kWh of energy.

Propane however much less. 1 litre (or 0.5 kilo) only contains 6.4 kWh of energy.

So diesel is 56% more energy dense than propane, by volume.

I assume that the diesel heaters have similar real world efficiency to the Truma Combi, the operating principle is similar.

The Eberspacher Airtronic D2 is specified to output 2200 W whilst consuming 0.28 l of diesel per hour.  That's more believable. 2.8 kWh of diesel to produce 2.2 kWh of heat i.e 79% efficient. Using 34 W of electrical power, i.e 2.83 A at nominal 12V.  That's 68 Ah per 24 hours, which is a heavy drain, and would require several hours running of the generator to replenish.

Running the numbers, 1l of road diesel at £1.30/l contains 10 kWh.
1.56 l of autogas at £0.70/l costs £1.09 for the same 10 kWh
1.56 l of Calor (0.78 kilos), in the 13kg bottle, costs £2.13

If I reserved say 100 l of my 125 l fuel tank for heating use, that would be the equivalent of 156 litres of LPG, or 78 kilos, and enough to keep an Airtronic D2 running continuously for two weeks. Still leaving me with enough fuel to drive about 160 miles.

Hence my interest in fitting one for extended cold weather camping, and the convenience of not having to worry about frequently sourcing scarce autogas, or the hassle and expense of using bottled gas.


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## Nabsim (Dec 23, 2019)

Regarding real life fuel use of an airtronic D4. I only use it when I am up, I don’t like it war, when I sleep. I have my controls set so I achieve approx 20 degrees internal temp in the van when on.

I have nothing sophisticated to messer by but I have just been parked up for two weeks above Chesterfield and it has been cold windy and damp or frost every day so I had the heating on all the time. Let’s say it was only on for 14 hours a day (never sleep 8 hours so that’s very conservative). Working from what the tank gauge shows I used almost a quarter of a tank of diesel. Near as dammit the tank is 100litres so let’s be generous and say it used 25 litres.

I estimate in real life situation i use approx 0.13 litres an hour running and that is a very conservative figure. Yes that may rise dependent on the weather, I had ice on internal windows 3 mornings in that period but for me it feels colder when it’s wet and windy than frost and sun.

I wouldn’t want to get rid of my diesel heater and in fact know at least one person who is fitting one of the copies in addition to their gas heating.The more heat sources you have the less chance of getting caught out but of course it depends how you use your van. I would like to add a wood burner but not yet at the point where I would. If I knew for sure there would be no issue with C1 in a few years it would have already been fitted lol


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## Drover (Dec 23, 2019)

My webasto uses between :5 and :75 ltr per hour as best I can figure out.
Hard to work out but it's the best I can come up with in real terms


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## R0B (Dec 23, 2019)

As @Sharpie says, JohnMcK seems to know his stuff - here's a short video of him explaining fuel consumption. It's a chinese heater but almost identical to Eberspacher functionally.


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## Sharpie (Dec 23, 2019)

I certainly wouldn't be without the Truma, but also adding another 2kW from something like a D2 would also be very useful and make fuel supply for an extended stay practical. The conditions I anticipate could easily drop to -20 at night, and the heater would have to be on 24/7 just to prevent the water system freezing, never mind keep it habitable when occupied during long winter nights. Perhaps not full power when out for the day, but I'd want to be able to get the van up to a reasonable temperature quickly afterwards, dry wet clothing etc. and keep it that way.

Pretty sure the Truma would be inadequate based on a number of marginal experiences in UK winter.

Even when on hookup I've sometimes found it necessary to burn gas as well as use the electric element to warm things up, totalling about 4 kW. A small fan heater sometimes gets an outing but the total power draw, with other systems also active, then is perilously close to the limit of a UK 16A supply, never mind the lower current ones usual elsewhere. If you can find one they can also be pretty expensive abroad. Typically you only get a 7A circuit breaker, then pay extra for the cabinet to be unlocked and a larger one fitted. They are very sensitive. If it happens when the warden has retired you just have to wait until the morning to be re-connected. Also if something trips the RCD covering several hookups you lose the lot. One particularly irritating incident was when a neighbour kept repeatedly tripping our circuits with his dodgy electrics, after two days of this he was evicted from the site.

Also had it trip during a thunderstorm, when it is prudent to unplug anyway.

Not unknown for selfish neighbours to unplug you to connect themselves if e.g. an aire has insufficient points, or they don't have a long lead to reach one. The cheeky ones will even do it whilst you are in residence rather than sneakily whilst you are out. The better ones will carry a Y splitter and politely ask to share the socket with you, but when two of you are sharing you must both be careful of your limited current draw.

I must have a reliable autonomous heating system, if only to kick in on thermostat if the hookup failed. Truma plus diesel would be belt and braces.

Your D4 will of course consume a lot more diesel and current than the D2 if turned up.


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## Nabsim (Dec 23, 2019)

If you are regularly going to be at -24 then I would think it only sensible to fit a diesel heater to complement or back up your gas system. My eber D4 was already fitted and only gas hob and grill so I have no backup at present. In the uk though you can normally survive with extra layers if dry.

there must be a site somewhere that gives a idea of real life usage figures I would have thought, there normally is but don’t know if one. I may be wrong but I would think if you fitted a D4 size you would get better fuel efficiency and electric consumption as it would be working less to maintain your settings. Mine will usually ramp up to full until it hits set point then drop back to almost tick over. It doesn’t use much power once warmed through. I am seeing around 6.5amp on startup and once going drops right down. I usually have a light or two on and maybe charging a phone etc at night so not isolated heater use on Rickover but typically I see 0.4 to 1.6 amps being consumed depending how many lights and what is charging. My big consumer is the compressor fridge


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## Sharpie (Dec 23, 2019)

I'm impressed with the functionality of the better controllers for the Chinese heaters that can display the dose rate, read back error codes, even allow manual adjustment of the various power settings away from the factory defaults.

Not sure whether that is available on Eberspachers or Webastos, perhaps someone could advise ?

Certainly not the basic ones with just a knob to twiddle. I am also hesitant about the extremely sophisticated electronics of the latest ones, controlled over CANbus, or even remotely using an app on your 'phone from anywhere with a signal. Not convinced of the utility of that, and as an electronic engineer cautious of such complexity.

Not that I could afford such an installation, it'll have to be Chinese for me.

Another good resource is https://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/eberspacher_intro_1.html where a great deal of information is given, on maintenance (yes it is necessary), failure modes, diagnosis and repairs, autopsies showing the nasty things that can and do go wrong etc.


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## Sharpie (Dec 23, 2019)

I anticipate significant current draw during the long winter nights, when I like to be entertained watching the TV or DVDs, working on the laptop editing my photos and videos, using the internet and so on. I've got 180 Ah of batteries but only really 90Ah is usable before damaging them, and that's when they are new. Ideally they should not even be cycled down to this sort of level every day, wear will soon build up.

I'd like to be prepared for this sort of thing, though I won't be setting out looking to find extreme temperatures:

February this year was one of the worst, see https://www.planetski.eu/news/3509 well below -20 across many ski resorts.

E.g. at Zermatt -13 degrees is predicted tonight with freezing rain (ugh). Fortunately the motorhome parking down the road at Tschaval is well set up.

Here's a description of the sort of arrangements in France: https://www.morznet.com/reviews/life-in-a-campervan-in-the-portes-du-soleil-morzine-683612


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## Nabsim (Dec 23, 2019)

My Eberspacher controller (801?) will display error codes but you can’t change system settings as far as I am aware. A lot of controllers are interchangeable I believe


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## SquirrellCook (Dec 23, 2019)

Both Anita and I don't like to be too warm whilst sleeping.  We normally set our D2 to 15 or 16 degrees C, the D2 is at the front of "Murky" mounted where the drivers step would have been.  A filtered air intake is close to the front of the drivers set.  It has two air outlets, one in the middle of the habitation area and one in the wet room below the bed.  Making the sleeping temperature comfortable does mean it be cold climbing down to put the kettle on.  I guess with the fact heat rises, this is one downside of sleeping high.  We also have a M12 water heater than can be used to boost the temperature with wet fan heaters that are normally used whilst driving.  Power worries are not so bad for us and the heating uses the engine start batteries.  Two LFD90's.  The new build "Betty" is having a new D4L in the hope it won't need topping up in cold extremes.


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## Drover (Dec 24, 2019)

My webasto has a programmable day/hour/week on /off setting. 
It shows error codes .
Unsure about settings changes


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## runnach (Dec 24, 2019)

i would have thought propane the natural answer , as it still gasses to -47c whilst you are basking in the tropics climes of -24c .....I would be concerned with diesel waxing


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## trevskoda (Dec 24, 2019)

channa said:


> i would have thought propane the natural answer , as it still gasses to -47c whilst you are basking in the tropics climes of -24c .....I would be concerned with diesel waxing


Winter derv.


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## Sharpie (Dec 24, 2019)

As I've already explained, propane is not the answer, for me.

It would be impractical to source or store enough for an extended stay. A few nights maybe. Never mind having enough space in the gas locker for it. Continental autogas is no good, it's normally a propane butane blend, in winter the butane just lies uselessly in the cylinder, with every refill you have less and less capacity. As I have discovered myself. 

Not a problem for automotive use, they first boil it up in a heat exchanger using engine coolant.  UK autogas is nearly all propane, much better.

LPG chills as it vaporises, the bottle becomes far colder than the external temperature. Even in summer if you have a heavy demand a propane bottle will go sub zero and frost form on the outside at the liquid level. It would have been game over long before then with butane.

It would not be usable anywhere remotely near -44 C, that's simply when the liquid's vapour pressure equals atmospheric. The colder it gets the more energy it takes to vaporise it. See https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/latent-heat-vaporization-propane-d_1203.html for data.

In a gas cylinder that energy comes from the surrounding air. Which is static when enclosed in a locker. Or you have to fit a heater to it, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/propane-tank-blanket/s?k=propane+tank+blanket . Which requires electrical power.

As the cylinder empties the problem becomes worse.

I had some roofing done, and the chap used a huge 47 kg Calor cylinder that he lugged about on a sack barrow. I was surprised, but he explained that even a more manageable 19 kg cylinder could not keep up with his torch when it was chilly and not full, never mind when two of them were working together.

Try to extract say 4 kW continuously from a 13 kg bottle in an enclosed gas locker, and propane can still struggle and become extremely cold as the cylinder empties. The smaller the bottle, the lower the liquid level, the worse the problem. Might work OK when full, not so much when nearing empty.

No, I see diesel as the only practical solution and far safer. Besides, I need an additional heat source anyway, the Truma is under powered, I have a massive 125 l fuel tank that I rarely brim (enough to get me from my house to the south coast of France without refilling), so it is logical.

Not concerned about diesel waxing or gelling. The days of truckers having to light fires under their lorries to warm the lines and tank are behind us. It will be winter grade where I plan to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_590


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## Nabsim (Dec 25, 2019)

You sure UK diesel is good for -44 degrees?

unless global warming makes massive changes I don’t think I am likely to hit those temps. I would think a gas system and a diesel system would be the ideal so you ‘should’ have a backup. Diesel cookers are expensive


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## trevskoda (Dec 26, 2019)

Nabsim said:


> You sure UK diesel is good for -44 degrees?
> 
> unless global warming makes massive changes I don’t think I am likely to hit those temps. I would think a gas system and a diesel system would be the ideal so you ‘should’ have a backup. Diesel cookers are expensive


I think when folks can splash out hugh sums of lolly for a van then a derv cooker price will be low down there list.


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## Nabsim (Dec 27, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> I think when folks can splash out hugh sums of lolly for a van then a derv cooker price will be low down there list.


There are a lot more folk in vans that only have a small amount of money for a van than there are those with huge amounts Trev. Thousands use a van to live in, possibly tens of thousands or more. They need practical solutions not £1500+ diesel cookers


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## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2019)

Nabsim said:


> There are a lot more folk in vans that only have a small amount of money for a van than there are those with huge amounts Trev. Thousands use a van to live in, possibly tens of thousands or more. They need practical solutions not £1500+ diesel cookers


Maybe you are right,maybe not,i have seen many on old scrap boats,maybe next time i shall grab one or two.


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## Nabsim (Dec 27, 2019)

Ha ha Trev, I remember paraffin heaters inside and the tiger tails and Esso Blue adverts. Pre H&S of course but worked a treat


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## mistericeman (Dec 27, 2019)

Nabsim said:


> Ha ha Trev, I remember paraffin heaters inside and the tiger tails and Esso Blue adverts. Pre H&S of course but worked a treat



And the smell/condensation..... 

As a kid at the grandparents 'my' bedroom was warmed by a parrafin bowl heater.... 

Awful thing looking back now.... Thank god things have moved on. 

Mind I still have a love of petrol/parrafin stoves etc... 
Including my ex British military No1 trench cooker... 2 gallons of petrol under pressure with a flame at the front of it... What's, not to like?


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## Sharpie (Dec 27, 2019)

I don't think a diesel hob would suit me. You get one low powered ring, together with a warming area beside it. Some have a top that you can close and turn it into a small air heater as well, but it's at the wrong level, you want your hot air vents at floor level so that the heat has a chance to rise around the van. Same slow start-up and shutdown as an Eberspacher/Webasto/Chinese air heater, with heavy current consumption during start up and shutdown. Not easily "off and on-able". Actually they operate the same way, just that the burner heats the (fragile ?) ceramic top instead of an air heat exchanger.

If you have any interest in cooking, gas is the best way IMO. At least a two burner stove. If only using gas for cooking it doesn't take much. If you have the electrical power, induction is even better.

Gas hobs are as simple as it gets. Diesel hobs are complicated, moving parts, electronics, controllers, electrical power demand, slow start up and shut down, noisy, exhaust, and combustion air to be routed externally, wiring and so on. I suspect that they are subject to the same maintenance/reliability issues as the simpler air heaters, but more difficult to access, probably have to take out the whole hob first.

I understand that elsewhere in the EU gas installs in vans have to be professionally done and annually inspected. Certainly mine (German) came with an official external sticker declaring it good, for a year. Seems we don't have such rules in the UK. One of the selling points of the Wallas is that it is not subject to such inspection and is designed for DIY fitting. Over a few years that could justify the initial cost, in other territories. Also some mention of parking restrictions there if having gas fired appliances.

Does everyone turn off their gas at the cylinder before setting off ? Even just switching the fridge off gas. Then visiting a filling station whilst the open flame is burning just behind the external vents. My fridge is manual, you have to remember to do this. And to spark it up again when you stop.









						Wallas XC Duo - All-In-One Heating and Cooking Solution for Camper Vans
					

XC Duo is a safe and space-saving heater-cooker combination for camper vans.



					www.wallas.fi


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## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2019)

Everything is of in my van until required,i dont bother about heating as we are a tuff lot here and dont even wear pajamas,beat that.


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## Deleted member 74314 (Dec 27, 2019)

FULL TIMER said:


> bear in mind that a lot of the chinese heaters do not carry the CE mark, from memory I believe that those used by the Scottish company mentioned do but are more expensive than those generally purchased via ebay etc, not sure if not having the CE rating would affect insurance / claims but worth checking out before fitting one.


  I seem to remember reading on Facebook that some Chinese heaters stamped with CE are not tested but simply China Export.


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## runnach (Dec 29, 2019)

The size of gas bottle lugged about by your roofer has nothing in a sense to do with the properties of propane . The properties remain the same whether stored in a 6 kg bottle or 47 kg bottle..I.e expansion rates flame temps lower and upper explosion limits etc 

The problem is far simpler and applies to motorhomee too .... That problem is he has gas hungry appliance that is exceeding the take off rate of s smaller bottle. Assuming the regulator can cope , propane is stored as a liquid and vapour isle to a gas ...it does this by drawing heat from the skin of the bottle sometimes referred to as the wetted surface area , it figure a larger vessel provides  a larger surface area so the gas vapourise more readily than a smaller bottle ..it's no more complicated than that .

The link re warming blankets seems like snake oil absolutely useless remember at -24 there is still heat and propane will still readily boil . By applying a blanket the bottle has difficulty drawing heat ( nor hoe butane keels I've when people mistakenly insulate.)


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## Sharpie (Dec 29, 2019)

Channa, it seems to me that you have an incomplete theoretical understanding. perhaps based on little practical experience.

My roofer was not an idiot, far from it, he had a good understanding of what it took to supply his kit and knew what actually worked, not just theoretical figures from the suppliers. If you believed that a 19kg cylinder would have been ample. Not so in reality.

At say -24 sure propane still boils. At a rate depending on the volume left in the cylinder. But as you draw off the gas the energy to boil it (latent heat of vaporisation) has to come from somewhere i.e. the air surrounding the cylinder. Otherwise that energy comes from the liquid itself cooling further. As the liquid gets colder and colder, the takeoff rate reduces. Quoted takeoff rates are for a full bottle, at a standard temperature, in free air.

As the temperature drops, so does the vapour pressure. E.g. at the standard temperature of 20C it is about 10 bar. Whereas at -20 it is less than 2 bar. That's absolute, so subtract 1 from that. 9 bar nominal, under 1 bar at -20. 

You could probably translate that into take-off rate, eg. 1/10 the headline rate at -20. For a full bottle. In free air.

Also why propane cylinders are rated to 30 bar (with margin) and the valves fitted with pressure relief valves typically set at 26 bar. To withstand temperatures of about 60C. Well I've camped in temperatures well over 40C with the sun beating down on the van so hard you could almost fry an egg on the bonnet (I tried, it cooked the white but not the yolk). Goodness knows what the temperature inside the locker was. Fortunately I was using a Spanish butane cylinder having depleted my propane, so it wasn't a worry.

Also consider that, whilst your pigtails and connections may seem sound, the rubber pigtail in date (they degrade) when you checked them under 9 bar with leak detector spray or something more sophisticated,, they need to be good enough for three times that pressure, when the rubber tube could also be near 60C, to be safe. So always use the type with an excess flow valve at the cylinder end. Clip on valves sometimes have these inside, but if you are using e.g. a Calor cylinder with a basic twist valve there is no such safety device. If that pigtail blows out, or gets ripped off in an accident, well you can imagine what might happen with propane spewing out under several hundred psi..

See https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-vapor-pressure-d_1020.html

That should give you a feel for how drastically low, and high, temperatures affect propane.

The regulator is no obstacle in my setup.

Even in summer conditions my propane bottle develops hard frost at the level of the liquid with only 2kW draw from my Truma heater. The liquid must therefore be below zero, maybe a long way below zero. A big temperature differential. There is no air circulation inside the locker except possibly a little through the drop vents, it's basically an insulated coolbox surrounding the cylinder.

So the thermal path to gasfiy the liquid is external air > walls of locker > air inside locker > wall of cylinder > liquid propane. There is a temperature drop across each interface, adding up to a big differential. The bottle would perform much better if it was outside the locker, exposed to the outside air.

As the bottle empties there is also a smaller and smaller volume of liquid left. You just can't use this when it gets really cold.

If I had a 4 kW heater rather than my underpowered 2 kW one, the problem would be twice as bad.

This is the reality, not theoretical understanding.

Those electric heating blankets are not "snake oil", such an ignorant remark. They are used by people in genuinely cold climates who still like to operate e.g. big gas barbecues outside, drawing off many kW of gas. Or the big ones for household storage tanks.

I've worked in Minneapolis, Ottawa and Calgary in the depths of Winter and know what real prolonged cold is like. They manage just fine. some UK people may not have a clue what properly cold weather is, or how rapidly it can change. People there have to be prepared for it. We are blessed to have the Gulf Stream keeping us warm and moderating our temperate climate.

Zero degrees (F) is considered unseasonably warm. That's -18C to us. It gets much colder than that. 

On a micro scale I know how to manage LPG in cold weather, even melting snow for water, that's why my backpacking stove is an expensive one that can take a feed of liquid gas from the inverted canister and boil it up in a preheater at the burner. It can also run off pressurised petrol, paraffin, diesel, even jet fuel, but I prefer to use gas canisters where possible on short trips.

Perhaps we could return to discussing diesel heaters now. I've identified some candidates that look good, but installation the way I want it is going to be complicated.


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## Fazerloz (Dec 30, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Channa, it seems to me that you have an incomplete theoretical understanding. perhaps based on little practical experience.
> 
> My roofer was not an idiot, far from it, he had a good understanding of what it took to supply his kit and knew what actually worked, not just theoretical figures from the suppliers. If you believed that a 19kg cylinder would have been ample. Not so in reality.
> 
> ...



It would seem to me that you have never been more wrong on any of your posts than you are about Channa. But you have tried hard.


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## Sharpie (Dec 30, 2019)

Channa has given some advice on other threads with which I also disagree. One positively dangerous. I'd welcome his responses, I'm sure he can defend himself.

I know nothing of his credentials, nor do you mine.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Dec 30, 2019)

With a attifude like yours I don’t need to see them thanks.

Alf





Sharpie said:


> Channa has given some advice on other threads with which I also disagree. One positively dangerous. I'd welcome his responses, I'm sure he can defend himself.
> 
> I know nothing of his credentials, nor do you mine.


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## trevskoda (Dec 30, 2019)

Oh what a gas as i read this sitting on ones a-s.


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## Silver sprinter (Dec 30, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Channa, it seems to me that you have an incomplete theoretical understanding. perhaps based on little practical experience.
> 
> My roofer was not an idiot, far from it, he had a good understanding of what it took to supply his kit and knew what actually worked, not just theoretical figures from the suppliers. If you believed that a 19kg cylinder would have been ample. Not so in reality.
> 
> ...


I must be missing a post from channa. Can't see him saying your roofer was a idiot or size of bottle to use. But I hope your roofer had his hearing protection in. Health and safety reasons


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## Sharpie (Dec 30, 2019)

Read carefully. Channa is polite and seems to know his stuff. My roofer is an educated man and understands the theory and what actually works in practice. Not what the suppliers say.

The same applies elsewhere in the real world, the theory is all well and good, but once you start stressing LPG installations in situations that suppliers may assure you will be fine, you may be disappointed. Just my experience.


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## Fazerloz (Dec 31, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Read carefully. Channa is polite and seems to know his stuff. My roofer is an educated man and understands the theory and what actually works in practice. Not what the suppliers say.
> 
> The same applies elsewhere in the real world, the theory is all well and good, but once you start stressing LPG installations in situations that suppliers may assure you will be fine, you may be disappointed. Just my experience.



Unfortunately you either didn't read Channas post and understand it ,or just dismissed it because it didn't agree with your view, as you have done in my opinion on other posts and threads.
With that I will now bow out and leave you to educate the rest of the forum.


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