# IMPORTANT - Highland Council plans for MH parking



## Pugs (Mar 7, 2016)

I received the following after trying to get confirmation on the Lochinver sign posts

_Thank you for your enquiry regarding ‘No Overnight Parking’ signage in the Lochinver area.  At present there is no bye-law or Traffic Regulation Order in place enforcing a parking restriction by motor homes and camper vans.  Highland Council has given an undertaking to remove such signage and this is being done as and when resources permit, so there may still be some signs around the Highland area.

*Highland Council are in the process of assessing which sites will require this type of parking restriction in the future so that a Traffic Regulation Order can be made, when this happens all signage will be reviewed and removed or replaced as required under the Order.  However, the Council is currently undertaking major preparatory work in preparation for Decriminalised Parking Enforcement (DPE) and so preparation for the overnight camping Traffic Regulation Order will follow the DPE work.*_

What does this mean? I've asked for clarification. If it's what i think, they have slipped that one in quietly...


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## UFO (Mar 7, 2016)

There is an explanation of DPE here http://www.transport.gov.scot/syste...s/Road/Decriminalised Parking Enforcement.pdf

It looks like it devolves parking enforcement to local authorities. Some may have a more enlightened approach to overnight parking than others - wishful thinking maybe.


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## Pugs (Mar 7, 2016)

What is worrying is this bit '_*so preparation for the overnight camping Traffic Regulation Order will follow the DPE work.' .*_ Sounds like they will employ a local warden to slap tickets on campers, they can even use clamps if my research is correct


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## maingate (Mar 7, 2016)

This has been the case down in England for a while. Since Councils have taken over, there has been a National shortage of yellow paint (as in double yellow lines) but a boost in employment (think ticketing). 

Northumberland County Council being one of the worst offenders. There are fewer overnight spots than there used to be.


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## caledonia (Mar 7, 2016)

We have good old Mr can't be named to thank for TROs in the Highlands. It was going to happen, forcing the councils to remove signs and aggressive tactics was never going to work. Some people have strange ways of going about things!


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## runnach (Mar 7, 2016)

caledonia said:


> We have good old Mr can't be named to thank for TROs in the Highlands. It was going to happen, forcing the councils to remove signs and aggressive tactics was never going to work. Some people have strange ways of going about things!


 This was always going to happen, when some twit starts screaming the law right or wrong. Occasionally keeping ones napper beneath the parapet is far more effective

There will be a couple of weekend warriors who have visited once suggesting the behaviour of an individual whom won't be named was correct. Looks like it !!!

This is what happens when the "ego" has landed .

Channa


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## Pugs (Mar 8, 2016)

caledonia said:


> We have good old Mr can't be named to thank for TROs in the Highlands. It was going to happen, forcing the councils to remove signs and aggressive tactics was never going to work. Some people have strange ways of going about things!



Oh I wasn't aware of this, what happened?


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## Pugs (Mar 8, 2016)

channa said:


> This was always going to happen, when some twit starts screaming the law right or wrong. Occasionally keeping ones napper beneath the parapet is far more effective
> 
> There will be a couple of weekend warriors who have visited once suggesting the behaviour of an individual whom won't be named was correct. Looks like it !!!
> 
> ...



Obviously I have missed the politics on this subject, whats this all about?


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## caledonia (Mar 8, 2016)

The yellow No Overnight Parking signs are only to stop abuse of parking places and have no legal backing. Staying one night in these places is no problem and you will not be moved. Forcing councils to remove signs will only result in more drastic actions by councils. A Strange man from Yorkshire has been hassling Highland councils and this is the result. These signs are only to deter gypos and freeloaders, wild campers using common sense will have no problems.


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## runnach (Mar 8, 2016)

Pugs said:


> Obviously I have missed the politics on this subject, whats this all about?


 The individual that instigated the original challenge to the Highlands council and threatened them with everything that wasn't holy, was a former member on this forum. He also threatened the owner of this site with litigation hence it is far easier not to mention names.

Phil, in respect of what any of us write is subject to the secondary publishing laws as a site owner, I believe he was reminded of this. Lets just say people were cynical of the tactics used, a more passive approach perhaps. That didn't suit the individual, legal recourse seems to be his first line of defence. Hence far easier not to mention his name.
Channa


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## maingate (Mar 8, 2016)

The story can never be told on here due to possible legal implications. We cannot even mention the idiots name, never mind provide you with a link.

The person who has been 'active' in Motorhome Parking did an enormous flounce because he did not like what some of us said.

What we forecast is now coming to fruition and we are losing overnight spots.


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## sasquatch (Mar 8, 2016)

maingate said:


> The story can never be told on here due to possible legal implications. We cannot even mention the idiots name, never mind provide you with a link.
> 
> The person who has been 'active' in Motorhome Parking did an enormous flounce because he did not like what some of us said.
> 
> What we forecast is now coming to fruition and we are losing overnight spots.


Did he flounce or was he flounced.
The council enforcement officers,some authorities called them ' parking ambassadors' are not the sharpest knives in the box. The training is basic they have no knowledge of the blue badge regulations. Typically if they see a potential infringement,they don't seize the opportunity to advise them that they can't park there,instead they hide around the corner and slap a ticket. They are on a bonus and also target drivers that are intellectually better equipped than them and can appeal. In fact they rely on the appeal procedure rather than think before issuing a ticket.
We have a very nice area to park on the sea front at New Brighton,on Kings Parade,favoured by night fisherman.Motorhomes can park there as long as the unofficial rules are followed. I hope that they don't look upon it as easy money!


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## runnach (Mar 8, 2016)

maingate said:


> The story can never be told on here due to possible legal implications. We cannot even mention the idiots name, never mind provide you with a link.
> 
> The person who has been 'active' in Motorhome Parking did an enormous flounce because he did not like what some of us said.
> 
> What we forecast is now coming to fruition and we are losing overnight spots.


 That sums it up Jim!. re the Highlands, when I was working in Inverness, I got chatting with the tourist info chap in the little woods on the A9 before you drop into Inverness. I was asking if it was ok to use their car park overnight out of courtesy. and he pretty much said the same as you, the signs were to discourage, Sensible parking up etc was and always was tolerated. The result which some of us predicted is coming home to roost.

Channa


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## n brown (Mar 8, 2016)

being a great believer in the adage ''it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission '' and relying on the reasonableness of my fellow man, this strange fellow insisting on being a constant dripping tap of a nuisance was always going to have this effect. thanks a lot pal


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2016)

*If* the Highlands Council proposes to introduce TROs to achieve what it had previously achieved outside a legal framework (council speak), then it will have to do so under rules laid down by Central Government for TRO introduction and with a proper consultation - and with motorhome organisations at that.   The rules under which TROs can be introduced are fairly stringent.   There are no rules for traffic orders introduced outside a legal framework.

All of us will then have the option - if we choose to exercise it - to affect the TRO (or byelaw if the council chooses to try introducing a byelaw).

Previous successes have seen TRO introduction modified and delayed until modified and seen (at least two) byelaws rejected by Central Government.

*If* the opportunity arises then perhaps you will do your best to influence any TRO or beylaw.


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## caledonia (Mar 8, 2016)

He might have a motorhome by now if enough people have hit that begging, sorry donate button:ninja:


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## alcam (Mar 8, 2016)

runnach said:


> Personally, I would put him on an _inhabited_ island, then allow a nuclear test to be done. Nice ending to a strange fellow!!



What about the other inhabitants ? Have you got a list ?


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## barryd (Mar 8, 2016)

I would just like to point out for the record that the reference made earlier to the "Strange man from Yorkshire" is nothing to do with me.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Mar 8, 2016)

I wouldn't worry too much about it, the Scottish councils can`t even afford to buy toilet paper for the office loos just now, let alone raise money for TRO`s and new local bylaws, they were in the throws of getting a local bylaw at findhorn to stop shooting wildfowl at the local wildlife reserve until they found out how much it was going to cost to get it passed, its now been abandoned.


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## Captain Biggles (Mar 9, 2016)

*A bit final...?*



runnach said:


> Personally, I would put him on an inhabited island, then allow a nuclear test to be done. Nice ending to a strange fellow!!



That's rather final and certainly, not cricket Old Chap :lol-049:

      Captain Biggles      lane:


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## alcam (Mar 9, 2016)

runnach said:


> Do you have someone you would like added??



We may have to discuss this in private . How many can I nominate ?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm reminded of nothing so much as a picture - seen occasionally on youtube - of a group of unruly teenagers seeing somebody getting a kicking and unable to defend himself,  joining in.  Not to defend the helpless but to deliver another kick to somebody unable to retaliate.

This guy, a local councillor, got caught up in things to do with motorhomers.   His initial campaign was nothing to do with us;  he's a wildcamper.  Not in the luxurious sense that we are wild campers but in the sense of sleeping in a bivvy bag - that some of us who have served will remember doing.  Most similar wildcampers would greet our claim to be wildcampers with a little amusement.

His success was greeted with acclaim amongst us and it was repeated in several places across the country - one of them in a place I'm familiar with as I used to be a campaigner in the same location.  In that place there are now some 350 overnight parking places that we didn't used to have.

How many here - none, I'll guess, who have replied in this thread - have achieved any success with “the cause”?


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## maxi77 (Mar 9, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> *If* the Highlands Council proposes to introduce TROs to achieve what it had previously achieved outside a legal framework (council speak), then it will have to do so under rules laid down by Central Government for TRO introduction and with a proper consultation - and with motorhome organisations at that.   The rules under which TROs can be introduced are fairly stringent.   There are no rules for traffic orders introduced outside a legal framework.
> 
> All of us will then have the option - if we choose to exercise it - to affect the TRO (or byelaw if the council chooses to try introducing a byelaw).
> 
> ...



Didn't East Lothian try to get a TRO and get pushed back by the Scottish government on the basis they already had sufficient powers


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## maingate (Mar 9, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> How many here - none, I'll guess, who have replied in this thread - have achieved any success with “the cause”?



You got that wrong.

I replied on this thread. If you are not aware of what I have done then you maybe were not paying attention.

Unlike the strange one, I have not trumpeted it, in fact I did the opposite so that not everyone is aware of it. The ones that are, are responsible wildcampers and are reaping the benefit because it has not been passed around every motorhome forum or put on a list of POI's. 

If you motorhome and are responsible, I will pass the info on to you by PM ........ after you have been vetted. :lol-049:


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

maingate said:


> You got that wrong.
> 
> I replied on this thread. If you are not aware of what I have done then you maybe were not paying attention.
> 
> ...



Yes, of course and I apologise to you.  And to anyone else in the same position.    I'm well aware that there are a few who have worked and remained quiet about their successes.   Some I know about and should recognise publicly and some whose actions I know about but don't know who they are.   Also there'll be people we never hear about.

My irritation is aimed at those who are angered by campaigners but who never put forward any proposals of their own.   I learned early not to criticise anybody's efforts at anything unless I could amply denonstrate a someting better.

I willingly apologise to all those quiet workers and hope they will continue.

A PM will be welcome.   I just hope you can find someone to vet me and, yes, I do motorhome - in my 27th year of being a motorhomer.

Tom


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

maxi77 said:


> Didn't East Lothian try to get a TRO and get pushed back by the Scottish government on the basis they already had sufficient powers



Yes.  That's right.   Something needs to be added to that though.  It was a byelaw, not a TRO.

 Byelaws *seem *to go through without difficulty unless someone raises valid objections to the Scottish Government (in this case).   Some did object on the grounds that local government already has powers to deal with anti-social behaviour and the Govt refused authorisation.

You might be interested that Aberdeen also tried to go down the byelaw route and, after similar or the same objections from motorhomers, the Scottish Govt also refused this one.

I think, but I'm not sure, there was a byelaw for Loch Lomond which did gain approval but in this case we heard of it too late for an objection.  No one objected to it and it was approved.   The moral is;  learn about these things early and act.

Tom


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## caledonia (Mar 9, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> I'm reminded of nothing so much as a picture - seen occasionally on youtube - of a group of unruly teenagers seeing somebody getting a kicking and unable to defend himself,  joining in.  Not to defend the helpless but to deliver another kick to somebody unable to retaliate.
> 
> This guy, a local councillor, got caught up in things to do with motorhomers.   His initial campaign was nothing to do with us;  he's a wildcamper.  Not in the luxurious sense that we are wild campers but in the sense of sleeping in a bivvy bag - that some of us who have served will remember doing.  Most similar wildcampers would greet our claim to be wildcampers with a little amusement.
> 
> ...


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## maingate (Mar 9, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, of course and I apologise to you.  And to anyone else in the same position.    I'm well aware that there are a few who have worked and remained quiet about their successes.   Some I know about and should recognise publicly and some whose actions I know about but don't know who they are.   Also there'll be people we never hear about.
> 
> My irritation is aimed at those who are angered by campaigners but who never put forward any proposals of their own.   I learned early not to criticise anybody's efforts at anything unless I could amply denonstrate a someting better.
> 
> ...



PM sent.


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## alcam (Mar 9, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes.  That's right.   Something needs to be added to that though.  It was a byelaw, not a TRO.
> 
> Byelaws *seem *to go through without difficulty unless someone raises valid objections to the Scottish Government (in this case).   Some did object on the grounds that local government already has powers to deal with anti-social behaviour and the Govt refused authorisation.
> 
> ...



To be fair there were some serious problems at Loch Lomond with campers treating the place as a dump . Pretty sure not us lot but something had to be done .


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

Scotland is an easy place to wildcamp with very few restrictions and that man rocked the boat. If it ain't broke and all that. He didn't even have a motorhome and was fighting for our rights. He seen the pound signs in the wealthy motorhomers hitting his button was his motive. IMPO.[/QUOTE]

Almost none of that is true.

It was of no concern to him what motorhomers got up to.  He was (is) a wildcamper who wanted to park overnight in laybys in the Highlands Council area.  To sleep in his car or away from the road, truly wild.   He found he could not if, for all he knew, the no overnighting signs had legal validity.

One of our own members (Alf) had, independently found the signs had no validity but I don't know if this guy you hate knew that.   He went on to have the signs removed.  Nothing to do with fighting for our rights - fighting for his own.  We latched on to him as a hero.  He blotted his book and we have never forgiven him.

I have no idea, and nor do you, whether his subsequent motives were to obtain donations from those of us who are rich.   His original motives were not.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

alcam said:


> To be fair there were some serious problems at Loch Lomond with campers treating the place as a dump . Pretty sure not us lot but something had to be done .






runnach said:


> Mess really is becoming a huge issue around various areas of Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park. Hence the park rangers, who are a bunch of great folks, sometimes doing a thankless job, dealing with, in some cases, the missing link.



Ok.  I accept what you say.

My point, if I'd been in time, would have been that legal remedies for this sort of anti-social behaviour already exist and should be used.

I think you've hit on something important.   If the bye-law has been successful and no motorhomes now park overnight where they shouldn't - then there will now be no litter problem.  If there is still a litter problem then the byelaw has been unsuccessful.

What is the litter problem like now?

I have a little personal anecdote - if you will forgive me.   In 1964 I was posted to Machrihanish for the first (of three) times.   I'd already done one tour in Fife and Edinburgh but as I arrived at Balloch I was entranced and I stopped several times to enjoy the place at Luss and Tarbet as well as other stops too.   I loved it then and I love it now.

Stopping for lunch in Tarbet I talked to, I guess, locals about my reaction to this place.  I was told, "Yes, it is lovely.  You should have seen it a few years ago before all these Glasgow folk could afford cars.  They're ruining the place."

There's always somebody ruining it for the rest of us.   

But ... did the byelaw work?   Has banning motorhomes solved their problems or will somebody else become the scapegoat.


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## sparrks (Mar 9, 2016)

Sadly it appears that the campers causing the problems at Loch Lomond  are now moving into Glen Orchy and Glen Etive (either that or the problem is spreading) I think it will get worse as the A82 gets further improvements. I wish that they could come down hard on those that create the mess(impound vehicles  ) and leave the more respectful majority alone.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2016)

runnach said:


> It is just some peoples couldn't care attitude, where ever they go, rather than return home with their litter, they dump it at side of road or car, then drive off. I've seen it at Loch Chon, group of thuggish looking east Europeans arrived early one morning, broke out their camping gear, sorry, booze first, then camping gear. We left mid afternoon, to find another stop for the night, bumped into park rangers we had met previous day, told them of large group that had descended and, mess they had made by time we left and we were not guilty, I'm sure rangers know who the worst culprits are for messing up our beautiful countryside.
> 
> Of topic, Machrihanish. My old air training corps squadron spent a week up there, late 90's, early 70's. Campbeltown was out of bounds, six off, us, we got on our way back from town, punishment was, sweeping the runway from top to bottom!!



All two miles of it?   I hope you made a good job of it.

Nobody wanted posted to  Machrihanish - except those who had already served there. Everybody who served thre wanted to go back.   Added together I spent ten years in total there.   Loved the place.

 Did you hear it's on the short list to be our spaceport?


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## maxi77 (Mar 9, 2016)

runnach said:


> It is just some peoples couldn't care attitude, where ever they go, rather than return home with their litter, they dump it at side of road or car, then drive off. I've seen it at Loch Chon, group of thuggish looking east Europeans arrived early one morning, broke out their camping gear, sorry, booze first, then camping gear. We left mid afternoon, to find another stop for the night, bumped into park rangers we had met previous day, told them of large group that had descended and, mess they had made by time we left and we were not guilty, I'm sure rangers know who the worst culprits are for messing up our beautiful countryside.
> 
> Of topic, Machrihanish. My old air training corps squadron spent a week up there, late 90's, early 70's. Campbeltown was out of bounds, six off, us, we got on our way back from town, punishment was, sweeping the runway from top to bottom!!



And that was quite a runway from top to bottom, Used to enjoy shore leave in Campbeltown especially trying to get booze into the dryy dances. Not quite so much fun though when it was an SSN berthed at the fuelling jetty a heck a walk back when drink had been taken


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## maureenandtom (Mar 10, 2016)

maxi77 said:


> And that was quite a runway from top to bottom, Used to enjoy shore leave in Campbeltown especially trying to get booze into the dryy dances. Not quite so much fun though when it was an SSN berthed at the fuelling jetty a heck a walk back when drink had been taken



The locals used to hand the booze in through the toilet windows.  We enthusiastically adopted local practices.  I was very young.

You might be interested in this:

Discover Space UK | Campbeltown’s Spaceport Bid

Did you know the whole airfield was sold for £1.00?     Would have made quite an aire!!!

Or perhaps somebody who still campaigns for such things could write to the tourism people in Campbeltown or the new owners and suggest an aire?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 10, 2016)

Maxi77 is by the looks of things a matelot.

He will probably tell you what an SSN is - but then he will have to kill you.


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## maingate (Mar 10, 2016)

runnach said:


> Aye, some runway, all of us had blisters by the time we reached the end. Was a gruelling punishment.
> 
> *What is an SSN?*



It's what Corbyn wants to get rid of completely and Ms Krankie wants moving South.


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## maxi77 (Mar 10, 2016)

runnach said:


> Aye, some runway, all of us had blisters by the time we reached the end. Was a gruelling punishment.
> 
> What is an SSN?



A nuclear powered attack submarine, I spent 2 years on our third one. None of the missiles that Corbyn or Niccy are so against.


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## Mul (Mar 10, 2016)

Do a quick Google Earth of "Rosyth", ya might see yur old friend laid up !


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## maxi77 (Mar 10, 2016)

Mul said:


> Do a quick Google Earth of "Rosyth", ya might see yur old friend laid up !



Nope she is one we palmed of on the English, currently rusting in Devonport.


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## maingate (Mar 10, 2016)

runnach said:


> I did a fair bit of fab weld on internal parts for Trafalgar class, I can't say what I did, coz I would have to kill you after disclosing details.



My Cousin Billy did 22 years in the RN, most of it in Subs. They are a closed mouth group in the Nukes. I remember trying to start a conversation with some of them in Rothesay. When I asked if any of them knew him, they just clammed up and looked at me like I was a Russian spy.


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## runnach (Mar 10, 2016)

maingate said:


> My Cousin Billy did 22 years in the RN, most of it in Subs. They are a closed mouth group in the Nukes. I remember trying to start a conversation with some of them in Rothesay. When I asked if any of them knew him, they just clammed up and looked at me like I was a Russian spy.


 it was the bear skin bonnet an dvodka you were supping Jim that gave the game away perhaps ...supposition i know


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## maureenandtom (Mar 11, 2016)

runnach said:


> Viewing link, you can view the runway, not often anyone can make claim to have swept just over 3000 mtrs of tarmac...lol.
> 
> Great for the locals buying for a quid, once in a lifetime bargain. See this link Our Process | Wind Towers Scotland view the clip, company is located within the old base.
> 
> ...




That would be here, I guess.  Beautiful place.   I have some youthful memories of that very car park.  It wasn't all that different in the 60s and 70s though I remember it as being bigger.   The sign says "Cars Only".   In the 60s that park was sometimes home to the tinkers and I'd guess that an overnight stop there would be no problem to anyone.  

Round there there are hundreds of wonderfully scenic stopping places where none would have bothered you a while ago and probably not now.   It might be worth trying for an aire there or round about.  

I did try a few years ago.   In the 60s and 70s there used to be a ferry from Campbeltown to Red Bay (I think) in Northern Ireland but it eventually failed.  A few years ago it was replaced and as far as I know there is again a ferry (to Portrush, I think)- but only for passengers.   When it started I wrote to either the ferry people or the tourist people, I can't remember, but with no useful response except that the ferry wouldn't be carrying vehicles.  I didn't pursue it.

But somebody might?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 11, 2016)

It shouldn't be all that difficult to find a parking spot.  My memory has been stimulated and I think I'll be going back there sometime soon so I hoe it isn't.

The “*Cars Only*” sign hasn't been commented on.  I thought maybe somebody would wonder if it is enforceable.

Well ... we have to accept that the council means what it says and it explicitly says that only cars can park there.  Incapable of any other interpretation.

I haven't seen a definition of a car lately and I haven't bothered to look one up now. I do know the EU and British Govt definition of a motor caravan though. 

[ARCHIVED CONTENT] How to import your vehicle permanently into Great Britain

“*Motor caravan*_” means a special purposes passenger car constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:_ ... (which it goes on to list)

So my motor caravan is a car and this car park is for cars only.   The council wants us to use this particular car park and probably others too in the same council area.

Is a motorhome the same as a motor caravan?  Yes, it is.

Page not found - 404 - GOV.UK 






Edit:  Sorry, that link isn't working and I can't make it work.  If yo google this *"Registering a DIY Motor Caravan - Gov.uk"* yo should get that statement.


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## Pugs (Mar 15, 2016)

Blimey, I've been away and look at all the posts. Thanks to everybody, I think I've read a blog regarding this chap.

Going back to the original post and just to understand what it all meant, this was a very polite lady response

_I have spoken to the Traffic Support Officer who confirms any site that will require restrictions on use for overnight parking will be advertised for consultation first and if agreed will require to be accompanied by adequate legal signing before they can be enforced.

_So, it looks to me that it will only be problem sites and that each site would have to go through it's own TRO_. _Proper legal signs to_.
_


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## KuyaAndAte (Mar 15, 2016)

maingate said:


> It's what Corbyn wants to get rid of completely and Ms Krankie wants moving South.


No, that would be a SS*B*N ;-)


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## maingate (Mar 15, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> No, that would be a SS*B*N ;-)



I thought she wanted rid of all of them, whatever their type?

Thanks for the clarification anyway.


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