# Are some Caravan Club CL's losing the plot?



## Firefox (Oct 6, 2011)

I just saw the CL site Woodhouse Farm in Powys featured in MMM magazine recently:

Check out the spec:

Facilities: Chemical Loo disposal point and water only

Prices: £18.00 inc EHU and two adults. Children £2.50 extra each, Dogs £2.50 extra each

They must be having a laugh here. A lone camper with two dogs is going to pay £23.00 a night for a patch of grass in a field. No toilets, no showers, zilch. What makes me laugh even more is that this was a featured review site in MMM :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:Surely they would feature sites which are likely to be of interest. I can't imagine many would be interested at these prices!!


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## Tbear (Oct 6, 2011)

Plus they have paid for membership of CC. Fools and their money!


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## plattypus (Oct 6, 2011)

That has got to be the biggest rip off ever Firefox. We spent  3 nights at a C&CC certificated site near 
Aysgarth we thought that was bad £12 pn for a field!!!!!  nothing else, water was a spring 300 yds down road.
Lets try and stick to Wilding eh? but not always possible.
Plattypus


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## MartianTom (Oct 6, 2011)

plattypus said:


> That has got to be the biggest rip off ever Firefox. We spent  3 nights at a C&CC certificated site near
> Aysgarth we thought that was bad £12 pn for a field!!!!!  nothing else, water was a spring 300 yds down road.
> Lets try and stick to Wilding eh? but not always possible.
> Plattypus


 
I belong to the C&CC and have stayed on some top notch sites with full facilities for £12 a night - but then there's only me!

I've had sites quote £28 per night for one person!  Dream on...

The site I went to in Southwold wanted £15 a night, _without_ EHU.  No point in my spending that money for nothing, so I spent a couple of nights in side-roads near the pier (loos) for free and didn't have a problem.


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## Firefox (Oct 6, 2011)

Too true... This a CL remember, with no facilities, not even a full CC site.

Bizarrely the electric hook up costs £9.00 a night. The pitch without is £9.00 but that is still £14.00 a night with the two dogs. Even a 2kW heater run for 18 hours would only use £4.00 or so of juice. It's tricky to see how the figures are made up.

Perhaps they got their fingers burned by campers running three 2Kw heaters for 18 hours


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## cooljules (Oct 6, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I just saw the CL site Woodhouse Farm in Powys featured in MMM magazine recently:
> 
> Check out the spec:
> 
> ...


 
ouch.

i have noticed, most of the sites, the price includes 2 people, plus extras for dogs.  not really ideal for the average WC person.

a place near me is 14quid a night for a tent.   seen another place a fiver.


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## kangooroo (Oct 6, 2011)

I've seen a few like this.  The priciest I've found was £26 but it did include a loo but still a daft price.

The best was a C&CC-listed CL just a few miles away where we had a car, my van, tent, 2-hookups, clean but cold shower and loo for £10 between us - and didn't need to be a member of the C&CC (or CC).


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## John H (Oct 6, 2011)

Are some CLs losing the plot? Well, it all depends on whether there are enough idiots out there willing to pay these ridculous prices and the answer to that is often "yes". We are currently in Cornwall and there are plenty of private caravan sites doing very good deals in the off-season - for example, £6.50 per night inc EHC and heated shower room/hot water washing up and laundry facilities etc - yet just dowen the road from these you can find CLs that charge £10 or £15 per night for a space in a field and those CLs are often full. There's nowt so queer as folk and as long as it doesn't affect the bargains available elsewhere then let the fools be parted from their money, I say.


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## MartianTom (Oct 6, 2011)

*'twixt Canterbury and Folkestone*

This here's a lovely, peaceful, friendly, small CC site.  Water and hook-up only (plus waste disposal), but in a beautiful village location, near a food-serving pub.  I paid £8 for the night with EHU.

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/kent/14138-twixt-canterbury-folkestone.html

I wonder if some of these sites.... no, scrub that....  I'm _sure _some of these sites are cashing in on local authority clamp-downs and parking restrictions - and general local hostility, depending on the area.


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## Higgy (Oct 6, 2011)

It seems as though the Authorities are trying to clamp down on illegal overnight
camping but only have the bottle to pick on the lone Camper Van.

We should do like some other Camping Fraternity that turn up en-bloc where the
aforesaid Council need to apply for a Court Order to get rid.  This can take up to
10 years or so it seems in the news.

I pay all my taxes for the car. camper and house and feel that it is my right to 
stay the odd night in a place that does not cause offence or annoyance. 

We are not Dogging: Racing around; Ghetto Blasting; Littering; just chilling 
out with perhaps a Burger or nice Rib Eye, a glass of wine or pint of beer.

Then people ask me why I want to emigrate to NZ (Not Utopia I know)

Grrrrrrrr only in the UK.

Pilgrim Fathers site £11 per night 2 adults, 1 child, 1 dog ehu and shower,
pub with real ale at the entrance. Pucker place.


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## Rubbertramp (Oct 6, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I just saw the CL site Woodhouse Farm in Powys featured in MMM magazine recently:
> 
> Check out the spec:
> 
> ...


 
At the other end of the scale I would recommend this Caravan club CL: Gubbins Hole Farm near Marsh Gibbon, Bicester. £8.00 a night including electric, toilet, washbasin, Chemical disposal and lovely views across the fields. Stopped for a total of two weeks....lovely people!

The good ones are still out there.


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## MartianTom (Oct 6, 2011)

Higgy said:


> It seems as though the Authorities are trying to clamp down on illegal overnight
> camping but only have the bottle to pick on the lone Camper Van.
> 
> We should do like some other Camping Fraternity that turn up en-bloc where the
> ...


 
Hear hear!  Coincidentally, I had a visit from the police and the local council Parking Enforcement Officer today regarding my complaints about the boy racers who congregate opposite here EVERY NIGHT, who make loads of noise and mess EVERY NIGHT and who disturb people's evening/sleeping EVERY NIGHT.  I was assured that things were being done, but that the main solution - putting a barrier up at the car park - will not happen as it is uneconomic, and penalises other car park users.  Ha ha... cue my spiel about how the complaint of ONE local resident can lead to the recent prohibition of motorhomes overnighting at a local quiet spot.  They admitted it seemed like an unfair approach, but said that the motorhome 'problem' was far easier to deal with, whereas the boy racer issue is more complex.  Que?

I'd like to extend an open invitation to all site members (particularly to any, like me, who've been affected by the Marine Crescent prohibition) to Neptune Car Park, Herne Bay on any Friday or Saturday night - come to that, any night at all.  Perhaps enough of us could block the car park and stop the boy racers in their tracks - and highlight the inconsistency of the council's approach to these matters, and in their definition of a 'problem'.  Peaceful, tidy campers wanting a quiet night?  _Ban 'em. _ Noisy gits in bangers?  _erm... we'll look into it..._

Room for 50 easily.  Pubs and take-aways nearby! 

Power to the people, eh?  And a decent, quiet night's sleep! :wacko:


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## Byronic (Oct 6, 2011)

Higgy said:


> It seems as though the Authorities are trying to clamp down on illegal overnight
> camping but only have the bottle to pick on the lone Camper Van.
> 
> We should do like some other Camping Fraternity that turn up en-bloc where the
> ...


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## Rubbertramp (Oct 6, 2011)

MartianTom said:


> Hear hear!  Coincidentally, I had a visit from the police and the local council Parking Enforcement Officer today regarding my complaints about the boy racers who congregate opposite here EVERY NIGHT, who make loads of noise and mess EVERY NIGHT and who disturb people's evening/sleeping EVERY NIGHT.  I was assured that things were being done, but that the main solution - putting a barrier up at the car park - will not happen as it is uneconomic, and penalises other car park users.  Ha ha... cue my spiel about how the complaint of ONE local resident can lead to the recent prohibition of motorhomes overnighting at a local quiet spot.  They admitted it seemed like an unfair approach, but said that the motorhome 'problem' was far easier to deal with, whereas the boy racer issue is more complex.  Que?
> 
> I'd like to extend an open invitation to all site members (particularly to any, like me, who've been affected by the Marine Crescent prohibition) to Neptune Car Park, Herne Bay on any Friday or Saturday night - come to that, any night at all.  Perhaps enough of us could block the car park and stop the boy racers in their tracks - and highlight the inconsistency of the council's approach to these matters, and in their definition of a 'problem'.  Peaceful, tidy campers wanting a quiet night?  _Ban 'em. _ Noisy gits in bangers?  _erm... we'll look into it..._
> 
> ...


If you can name a date in December or January Tom....I'll be there....Damned good idea.
I've been following your adventures with western "civilisation" and think you deserve as much support as you can get. :idea: In fact there is a thread where a Christmas meet is being discussed and no-one can seem to agree on a venue......Two birds with one stone?

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-meetup-xmas-party-somewhere-central-ish.html


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## jogguk (Oct 6, 2011)

John H said:


> Are some CLs losing the plot? Well, it all depends on whether there are enough idiots out there willing to pay these ridculous prices and the answer to that is often "yes". We are currently in Cornwall and there are plenty of private caravan sites doing very good deals in the off-season - for example, £6.50 per night inc EHC and heated shower room/hot water washing up and laundry facilities etc - yet just dowen the road from these you can find CLs that charge £10 or £15 per night for a space in a field and those CLs are often full. There's nowt so queer as folk and as long as it doesn't affect the bargains available elsewhere then let the fools be parted from their money, I say.



Yeh, You got to look around, I found two good farm sites in Cornwall only £5 per person, dogs free, free hot showers (oldish but very clean) and fantastic views. Did struggle getting close enough to the CDP to empty my tanks though, which was why on a site:lol-053: Called: _Pennycrocker Farm_ just outside Boscastle.,lots of space pup tents free also, highly recommend:wave: Hate to think what the CC site would have cost  Between Tintagel and Boscatle.

John


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## forbern (Oct 6, 2011)

*The Deepings caravan park. Market Deeping*


We have just spent two nights here. being seniors, and going mid-week, we got it for £6 per night!!! including electric, water clean toilets, and showers. Disposal points. The site is clean, well kept, and welcoming. We shall stay there agin if we are in the area.:bow:


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## MartianTom (Oct 6, 2011)

Rubbertramp said:


> If you can name a date in December or January Tom....I'll be there....Damned good idea.
> I've been following your adventures with western "civilisation" and think you deserve as much support as you can get. :idea: In fact there is a thread where a Christmas meet is being discussed and no-one can seem to agree on a venue......Two birds with one stone?
> 
> http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-meetup-xmas-party-somewhere-central-ish.html


 
Thanks, mate.  Anytime at all, really.  The banger-boys are there every night.  It's funny, but there was a 37-footer parked up there the other night, slap bang in the middle of the car park, and they didn't know what to make of it.  It was such a pain for them, because it was in their favourite doughnut-spinning area!

I'll post Jules a link.  Xmas would be great.  Cheers.


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## Deleted member 2636 (Oct 7, 2011)

MartianTom said:


> I belong to the C&CC and have stayed on some top notch sites with full facilities for £12 a night - but then there's only me!
> 
> I've had sites quote £28 per night for one person!  Dream on...
> 
> The site I went to in Southwold wanted £15 a night, _without_ EHU.  No point in my spending that money for nothing, *so I spent a couple of nights in side-roads near the pier (loos) for free and didn't have a problem*.


 
My bold - you were lucky that the "thought" Police didn't spot you. Southwold is deader than a dead thing these days during the Winter as is Aldeburgh. The "wild campers" really didn't cause any problems and did bring a small amount of extra income into the towns.


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## MartianTom (Oct 7, 2011)

baloothebear said:


> My bold - you were lucky that the "thought" Police didn't spot you. Southwold is deader than a dead thing these days during the Winter as is Aldeburgh. The "wild campers" really didn't cause any problems and did bring a small amount of extra income into the towns.


 
Well, the other funny thing was that one or two of the locals I spoke to basically said 'Good luck to you.'  I also noticed a few MHs overnighting in a car park along the harbour road where there were prohibition signs.  People may not agree with me, but I don't think that sets a good example.  It was kind of like a blatant defiance, which is the kind of thing that gets people's goat - especially in a conservative town like Southwold.  I parked inconspicuously, in quiet side streets.  I always try to choose spots, too, that are shielded by hedges, trees or walls (i.e. not bang in the centre of someone's window view).

The other thing is... just because a motorhome or camper is parked in a side road, it doesn't mean there's anyone living/sleeping in it.  Plenty of people I know park theirs on the road outside their house because they don't have a garage or driveway.  I think there's a double standard in operation in the heads of these 'thought' police.  It's ok to PARK your vehicle overnight - just not ok to BE INSIDE it overnight.  Aesthetically, motorhomes and campers look a lot nicer than many of the other agressive, macho monsters people drive around in - yet they can park where they like, when they like, and no one takes a blind bit of notice.  The average family saloon nowadays wouldn't have looked out of place in a war zone a few years ago!


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## Northerner (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I just saw the CL site Woodhouse Farm in Powys featured in MMM magazine recently:
> 
> Check out the spec:
> 
> ...



Someone hasn't been reading an article properly or MMM has got it totally wrong. Woodhouse Farm is not a Caravan Club CL, it is a Camping and Caravan Club CS. Its prices appear at first glance to be on the high side, but only if you need electricity. I suspect that the owner may have had people taking the mick, as many do, by leaving heaters etc. on all day on the presumption that "I've paid for it so I'm going to use it".

Its prices for the main season from March to October are actually £13 per night including EHU and two adults. If you do not require EHU the charge is reduced to £8 per night - hardly the rip off being implied in the original post.

Oddly, for the winter season, the prices rise slightly, being £18 per night including EHU but if no EHU is required there is a huge drop of £9 leaving a total of the same amount. 

The main anomaly of this site is the extra cost of EHU but I can understand why, in winter, it is much higher than in summer and energy costs have risen enormously over the last year.

The site looks lovely and I for one do not think that £8 a night from March to October is unreasonable.

It has a website for anyone doubting my figures: Camping Mid Wales. Woodhouse Farm's Camping and Caravanning Club Certificated Site.


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

My bad ... it is a CS rather than a CL, but who cares, that's just semantics  

The main point is that it's a small 5 van site with no facilities other than water and chemical disposal. One of the main reasons wilders visit these kind of sites is for a decent charge off the hook up anyway.  To charge £9.00 for *one night's* hook up is a complete rip off. The fact that they are charging *£2.50 extra per dog* is further evidence of the desire to fleece their customers. Some members here have two or more dogs. This is just complete extortion. And *£2.50 extra per child*, how can that be justified? It's not as though they have any toilet or washing facilities for children to use anyway :lol-053:


I totally stand by my post. For a 5 van site with no facilities this is a Rip off with a capital R. At the current time, with hook up, 2 dogs and 2 children you'd be paying *£28 a night for a patch of grass*. CL, CS, 5 van site, or whatever you want to call it, that's a disgrace.:yeahthat:

I propose that this site shall be named, shamed, and boycotted by all concerned :hammer::lol-049::hammer:


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## John H (Oct 7, 2011)

Northerner said:


> The site looks lovely and I for one do not think that £8 a night from March to October is unreasonable.


 
Its all a matter of personal perception (and income!) but I do think this is high. For a space in a field I never pay more than £4 or 5 per night and I have certainly never been charged (and would never accept) an additional £9 for electricity! Some people run CLs/CSs because they are enthusiasts and motorhomers/caravanners themselves (and there are many good value sites out there) but some are rip-off merchants who don't care. Which leads me on to one of my favourite rants: why is it that the so-called members clubs charge much higher prices than nearby private sites that presumably have to make a profit? I rate the people who run the Caravan Club higher than bankers on the scale of hate figures!


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## Northerner (Oct 7, 2011)

Mmm, could it be that they don't want dogs and children? There's no denying though that £8.00 a night for a 'van and two adults is not expensive and compares favourably with most other CLs/CSs. No family with two children and two dogs would ever contemplate staying there, which is probably the intention.

I just wanted to point out what I thought was a slightly unfair post in that only the most expensive option was given, when there is a much cheaper one.


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## Byronic (Oct 7, 2011)

MartianTom said:


> Well, the other funny thing was that one or two of the locals I spoke to basically said 'Good luck to you.' I also noticed a few MHs overnighting in a car park along the harbour road where there were prohibition signs. People may not agree with me, but I don't think that sets a good example. It was kind of like a blatant defiance, which is the kind of thing that gets people's goat - especially in a conservative town like Southwold. I parked inconspicuously, in quiet side streets. I always try to choose spots, too, that are shielded by hedges, trees or walls (i.e. not bang in the centre of someone's window view).
> 
> The other thing is... just because a motorhome or camper is parked in a side road, it doesn't mean there's anyone living/sleeping in it. Plenty of people I know park theirs on the road outside their house because they don't have a garage or driveway. I think there's a double standard in operation in the heads of these 'thought' police. It's ok to PARK your vehicle overnight - just not ok to BE INSIDE it overnight. Aesthetically, motorhomes and campers look a lot nicer than many of the other agressive, macho monsters people drive around in - yet they can park where they like, when they like, and no one takes a blind bit of notice. The average family saloon nowadays wouldn't have looked out of place in a war zone a few years ago!




Could be that the carpark over night campers (I'd call them overnight parkers) used their initiative and judged that they would upset less people overnight parking in the carpark, rather than overnight parking in the street.
After all, during the day that's where they may well be parking. Apart from it being darker what's the difference at night? Getting something for nothing (ie free camping)is what often gets the goat of the "thought" police, although to be fair, a long line of vans does the same.
I reckon you'd have a hard job argueing the aesthetic virtues of the average motorhome over that of the agressive macho monster to their owners and admirers! Think vicious coloured decals, alloy wheels, bike racks, silver screens, overhead cab, Thetford door etc. Furthermore non of these help if you want to keep a low profile when wildcamping.


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## cooljules (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> My bad ... it is a CS rather than a CL, but who cares, that's just semantics
> 
> The main point is that it's a small 5 van site with no facilities other than water and chemical disposal. One of the main reasons wilders visit these kind of sites is for a decent charge off the hook up anyway.  To charge £9.00 for *one night's* hook up is a complete rip off. The fact that they are charging *£2.50 extra per dog* is further evidence of the desire to fleece their customers. Some members here have two or more dogs. This is just complete extortion. And *£2.50 extra per child*, how can that be justified? It's not as though they have any toilet or washing facilities for children to use anyway :lol-053:
> 
> ...


 ouch, i wonder how many people just turn up, then hit with a shock at the prices.   if i was being charged 9quid a night, i would pop home and bring everything i could lol.     


someone recently asked me if i wanted to go  camping for 3 nights, 18 quid a night for a tent!!! i said noooooooooooooooooo.


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## John H (Oct 7, 2011)

Northerner said:


> There's no denying though that £8.00 a night for a 'van and two adults is not expensive and compares favourably with most other CLs/CSs.


 
Yes there is - I'm denying it! I would accept that £8 per night is reasonable if hook-up is included but it is totally unacceptable for just a patch of grass - and fortunately it does NOT compare favourably with most other CL/CSs.


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## MartianTom (Oct 7, 2011)

Byronic said:


> Could be that the carpark over night campers (I'd call them overnight parkers) used their initiative and judged that they would upset less people overnight parking in the carpark, rather than overnight parking in the street.


 
Yeah... ish...

The difference is that the roads where I chose to park had plenty of spaces and were unobtrusive - and the place where they chose to park was exposed and was specifically designated as a 'prohibition' area for doing what they were doing.

I'd call them 'overnight parkers' too.  But they were also eating and sleeping there, which constitutes 'camping' - and that's how the anti-lobby, and the prosecutors if it comes to that, will define it. 

Don't get me wrong - I'm on side.  But I agree that sometimes we can mess our own beds, as it were, by making ourselves too obvious a target.


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

Probably what we have to do with this kind of site trying it on, is hammer out a deal. Tell them on the phone that £28 is far too much. We want pitch + EHU for £8 to £10 max on a 5 van site, dogs inclusive. If they are slack for business they may be tempted to do a deal. Show them the power of the market. If people give in to these silly prices we'll soon be paying as much for a few m2 of grass as for a room in a guest house!


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## John H (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> Probably what we have to do with this kind of site trying it on, is hammer out a deal. Tell them on the phone that £28 is far too much. We want pitch + EHU for £8 to £10 max on a 5 van site, dogs inclusive. If they are slack for business they may be tempted to do a deal. Show them the power of the market. If people give in to these silly prices we'll soon be paying as much for a few m2 of grass as for a room in a guest house!



The problem with this is that they pushed their prices up that high in the first place because some people are willing to pay. If they didn't have any customers they would have either reduced their prices or closed down. I'm not saying don't bother to try a deal but it might be better to simply boycott the site and move on. There are, after all, plenty of better deals to be had and most CLs charge between £7 and £10 for a pitch with EHC. As long as there are 5 idiots around, sites like this will carry on hiking their prices. Fortunately, many CL owners are enthusiasts themselves and wouldn't dream of scamming their customers - support for them might be the best option.


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## runnach (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> My bad ... it is a CS rather than a CL, but who cares, that's just semantics
> 
> The main point is that it's a small 5 van site with no facilities other than water and chemical disposal. One of the main reasons wilders visit these kind of sites is for a decent charge off the hook up anyway.  To charge £9.00 for *one night's* hook up is a complete rip off. The fact that they are charging *£2.50 extra per dog* is further evidence of the desire to fleece their customers. Some members here have two or more dogs. This is just complete extortion. And *£2.50 extra per child*, how can that be justified? It's not as though they have any toilet or washing facilities for children to use anyway :lol-053:
> 
> ...



I disagree with your sentiments slightly. 

We have a CHOICE.............the fact you or I for that matter dont see value for money is personal opinion and perception of what is good value. 

There is no need to boycott, the laws of supply and demand will dictate. 

I have found official CC sites to be more beneficial ...I.e Clumber Park mid week 7 quid a night...Including unlimited EHU. A good shower block and washing machine facilities at  3 quid. 

It seems some Cls are trying to run a business and dare I say make a profit which is not a dirty word in my World. They are entitled too. 

Value for money will rule the roost ultimatly ....However the perception of VFM will vary from individual to individual .. ..If you choose to spend £ x per night who am I to criticise ? 

There is no need to boycott? Market forces will prevail ? 

Channa


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## AndyC (Oct 7, 2011)

John H said:


> I have certainly never been charged (and would never accept) an additional £9 for electricity!



It is, in fact, illegal to re-sell electricity at more than cost price, see Resale of gas and electricity 

AndyC


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## vindiboy (Oct 7, 2011)

Depends on your perception really, to set up a CS or CL site is not cheap, to have electric hook up installed is mega expensive,and they have to be tested and certified regularly, grass has to be  cut,so the cost of the grass cutting machine, time and labour  to do this, water to lay on and supply, Elson waste to get rid of, must go into a pumpable tank if not on main drainage,so pump out charges,rubbish disposal, etc, I guess a CS or CL is only occupied  for about 6 months of the year, so not a lot of profit to be made I would guess and on top of all that  one would have to deal with the whinging public who want all that for about a fiver a night, I think not.


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 7, 2011)

I was talking to a CL owner near Doncaster who allowed a van to come onto his site last Christmas.  He normally does not open but did it as a favour. Site fee s £10 per night inc EHU.   He checked the electric and found the guy in the van had used £9 of electric by the next morning.  He went to him and told him he was going to bill him for the excess electricty used and the guy lost his rag and drove off the site.  The site will now remain closed during the winter season.

On another CL I use from time to time, a van used £5 overnight, this site is metered and I used £1.38 in the same period.  

If we play fair site, owners will not charge high fees but you cannot expect them to subsidise your EHU useage.  Meters are the fair way to go and do not cost a fortune to install.


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## Byronic (Oct 7, 2011)

MartianTom said:


> Yeah... ish...
> 
> The difference is that the roads where I chose to park had plenty of spaces and were unobtrusive - and the place where they chose to park was exposed and was specifically designated as a 'prohibition' area for doing what they were doing.
> 
> ...


 

But if they are just sleeping and eating how would any one else be aware and can you define these actions as camping..... in my book they are parking. Just as I may do in my car. What exactly was being prohibited, overnight camping, overnight parking or both? 
You have to exercise your own judgement otherwise you might as well assume that sleeping in a motorcaravan, (in England at least) is verboten except in authorised sites.
Thankfully 95% of my motorhoming is on the Mainland


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## Pollik (Oct 7, 2011)

You are quite right of course, but I suspect that many motorhomers and caravanners simply do not realise how much electricity they use.  My monthly electricity payment at home is only £20...admittedly that is with us travelling for 6mth of the year, so say £40 pm.

Even if I left the heater on all night in the van, I can't see I would get to £9.00 a night.



Polly


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

> There is no need to boycott? Market forces will prevail ?



Agreed... hence my use of the smilies to convey that the suggestion of boycott was somewhat tongue in cheek


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

Pollik said:


> You are quite right of course, but I suspect that many motorhomers and caravanners simply do not realise how much electricity they use.  My monthly electricity payment at home is only £20...admittedly that is with us travelling for 6mth of the year, so say £40 pm.
> 
> Even if I left the heater on all night in the van, I can't see I would get to £9.00 a night.
> 
> ...



A 2kW heater left on for 18 hours would only use £4 or so.

You would have to use 4KW for over 18 hours to get your £9.00 worth. Since 4KW is 17A, that is almost certain to trip any normal site supply, it follows you can't actually physically use your £9.00 worth and therefore they could well be selling on electricity for more than they purchased it for.


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## MartianTom (Oct 7, 2011)

Byronic said:


> But if they are just sleeping and eating how would any one else be aware and can you define these actions as camping..... in my book they are parking. Just as I may do in my car. What exactly was being prohibited, overnight camping, overnight parking or both?
> You have to exercise your own judgement otherwise you might as well assume that sleeping in a motorcaravan, (in England at least) is verboten except in authorised sites.
> Thankfully 95% of my motorhoming is on the Mainland


 
Ah, the questionable wonders of Google Street View.  I've just checked, and the sign says 'Motor Cars and Motor Cycles Only'... so you'd then have to argue that you were one of those!  

In my book they're parking, too.  But these authorities will all have their own clear definition of what constitutes 'camping', and I'm sure we can all guess what that would be.  A traffic warden I spoke to said as far as he was concerned, camping meant eating and sleeping in a vehicle overnight.  But then you could argue that you were just resting, rather than being a danger to other road users because of tiredness.  Aren't they always telling us 'Tiredness can kill.  Take a break.'?  You could also argue that you weren't taking up any more space than an average van, that you weren't pitching a tent, or hogging two spaces by having a caravan in tow.

I guess we can all swim in a sea of semantics, implications, suggestions, etc., and whether we're right or not will only ever be answered if any of us is unlucky enough to be prosecuted, and whether any appeal we make on the grounds of vagueness of definition is successful or not.


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## Byronic (Oct 7, 2011)

John Thompson said:


> I was talking to a CL owner near Doncaster who allowed a van to come onto his site last Christmas.  He normally does not open but did it as a favour. Site fee s £10 per night inc EHU.   He checked the electric and found the guy in the van had used £9 of electric by the next morning.  He went to him and told him he was going to bill him for the excess electricty used and the guy lost his rag and drove off the site.  The site will now remain closed during the winter season.
> 
> On another CL I use from time to time, a van used £5 overnight, this site is metered and I used £1.38 in the same period.
> 
> If we play fair site, owners will not charge high fees but you cannot expect them to subsidise your EHU useage.  Meters are the fair way to go and do not cost a fortune to install.


 
Agreed meters are the way to go. However I know of 2 CLs (in Essex where else) where the owners calibrate the coin in the slot meters to overcharge, they have been reported over the years, but the fines aren't enough to put them off for long.
With a 16Amp supply it wouldn't be so difficult for someone determined to get their money's worth of electricity. Over 24 hours even @ 10p Kw/hr. it will cost c.£9.21.


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## Pollik (Oct 7, 2011)

> 'Motor Cars and Motor Cycles Only'



I am curious...what is the legal definition of a motor car?  Can't seem to find it on Google.



Polly


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## JoMutch (Oct 7, 2011)

*Definition*



Pollik said:


> I am curious...what is the legal definition of a motor car?  Can't seem to find it on Google.
> 
> 
> 
> Polly



Motor Car
n.	1.	An automobile, locomobile, or locomotive designed to run and be steered on a street or roadway; esp., an automobile specially designed for passengers and propelled by an internal combustion engine.
	2.	(Elec. Railroads) Any car containing motors for propulsion.

motor caravan
n
(Engineering / Automotive Engineering) Brit a motor vehicle fitted with equipment for cooking, sleeping, etc., like that of a caravan


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

I just don't know where these high figures come from.

A 700W fan heats my van up in no time. Even if left that on all day it would only be 0.7x24x0.11 = £1.84.

Realistically I don't think I would ever use more than £1.50 a day and that's in really cold weather. Normally it would just be 50p to £1.00 and I'd hope the site owner would make a little bit of profit on the £2.00 they normally charge for EHU.

£9.00 charge or £9.00 usage is completely ridiculous and wasteful in the extreme.


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## runnach (Oct 7, 2011)

Unless you live at home with Mum and Dad and they have a common sense deficiency , no bugger and quite rightly so will subsidise you.

After that watch out ? 

Channa


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## Pollik (Oct 7, 2011)

JoMutch said:


> Motor Car
> n.	1.	An automobile, locomobile, or locomotive designed to run and be steered on a street or roadway; esp., an automobile specially designed for passengers and propelled by an internal combustion engine.
> 2.	(Elec. Railroads) Any car containing motors for propulsion.
> 
> ...




There must be more to it than that.  A reliant robin is legally a motorbike.  My motorhome also meets all the criteria being a motor car, with a few extra bits besides!



Polly


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## Byronic (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I just don't know where these high figures come from.
> 
> A 700W fan heats my van up in no time. Even if left that on all day it would only be 0.7x24x0.11 = £1.84.
> 
> ...


 
I have seen the occasional camper usually a caravanner with a big enclosed awning (in the winter) using a 2Kw heater in the awning a 1Kw heater in the caravan then add the fridge, and on/off water heating, cooking, etc. soon gets to 3840 Watts 3.8Kw/Hr very easily, and thats the 16 Amps used up.
The site owner could of course install 10Amp tripping. In Europe it's often 6 Amp and in Morocco 1 Amp is not unusual!


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## Mastodon (Oct 7, 2011)

Firefox said:


> I just saw the CL site Woodhouse Farm in Powys featured in MMM magazine recently:
> 
> Check out the spec:
> 
> ...


 
£2.50 for a dog? I've asked why, to be told "It's the cost of cleaning up after them". Fair enough,as I'm paying for it I'll let my dog cr*p in their office.


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## John H (Oct 7, 2011)

AndyC said:


> It is, in fact, illegal to re-sell electricity at more than cost price, see Resale of gas and electricity
> 
> AndyC



True but that doesn't stop some people doing it! As for usage, whenever I have stopped at a site which meters electricity I have found it interesting that even in winter I have never managed to get my usage above £2 per night and usually it is around £1, so £9 is definitely having a laugh. If there really are people out there who have several heaters on 24 hours a day in order to heat their awnings or whatever, then the CL owner could easily include in his contract that any use above, say, £2 will require an additional payment - that payment being what it cost him plus VAT (which he is entitled to charge). The fact that this particular guy is trying to charge everybody £9 is inexcusable.


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## cooljules (Oct 7, 2011)

my dogs are part of the family, so i take them with me. Gemany is a dog friendly country.  i would rather spend my time with dogs than certain people......


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## Firefox (Oct 7, 2011)

A 2kW heater, 24 hours a day, in an awning ? ...... some people just don't care.

I hope nobody on this site indulges in that kind of stupidity.


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## AndyC (Oct 8, 2011)

Pollik said:


> I am curious...what is the legal definition of a motor car?  Can't seem to find it on Google.
> 
> 
> 
> Polly


The UK Road Traffic Act, and the Construction and Use Regulations, define a motor car as follows:

_*Motor car*: a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a motor cycle or invalid  carriage) which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers  and the unladen weight of which: 
*a* if constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects, and is adapted to carry not more than seven  passengers exclusive of the driver, does not exceed 3,050kg; 
*b* if constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods or burden of any description, does not exceed 3,050kg or  3,500kg if propelled by gas; 
*c*  does not exceed 2,540kg in a case not falling within *a or b* above. _

There is also a heavy motor car:

_*Heavy motor car*: a mechanically propelled vehicle which is not a motor car, is  constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and with an unladen  weight  exceeding 2,540kg. _

You rarely see the term 'Heavy motor car' used, but I did see it recently in one local authority's parking regulations.

AndyC


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## Mastodon (Oct 8, 2011)

I can quite understand cleaning charges for accomodation, but I've yet to see a warden hoovering dog hair up from a campsite pitch...


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## el-D (Oct 8, 2011)

Having just returned from a 3 week trip around Belgium, Germany and France, where we used almost entirely 'stellplatz' and aires de service, it depresses me to remember that the options in the UK are so poor unless you're prepared to shell out silly sums of money. The Europe trip cost very little in terms of overnight fees and not much for the added services either. A vineyard in the Black Forest provided a pitch with EHU free in return for eating in the restaurant where we enjoyed a superb meal with a large glass of wine at 18 euros for the two of us. Many of the stellplatz and aires gave EHU either free or for very little and almost all are in great locations, not hidden away in an grotty car park somewhere. I'm afraid the campsites here really have lost the plot or at least are pushing their luck. I certainly don't look twice at a site if it doesn't give something like decent value.


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## MartianTom (Oct 9, 2011)

el-D said:


> Having just returned from a 3 week trip around Belgium, Germany and France, where we used almost entirely 'stellplatz' and aires de service, it depresses me to remember that the options in the UK are so poor unless you're prepared to shell out silly sums of money. The Europe trip cost very little in terms of overnight fees and not much for the added services either. A vineyard in the Black Forest provided a pitch with EHU free in return for eating in the restaurant where we enjoyed a superb meal with a large glass of wine at 18 euros for the two of us. Many of the stellplatz and aires gave EHU either free or for very little and almost all are in great locations, not hidden away in an grotty car park somewhere. I'm afraid the campsites here really have lost the plot or at least are pushing their luck. I certainly don't look twice at a site if it doesn't give something like decent value.



That's decided me.  I was planning my first long trip for next spring/summer.  The US was my most favoured location, but the shipping costs are simply too high.  Around the UK was also on the cards.  But Europe it is!


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## el-D (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm sure you won't regret it MT! I don't know if you use a sat-nav. I don't normally but just before departing on this trip my daughter offered me the use of hers. Man was I glad she did! It made life so much easier. The German 'Bordatlas' that lists stellplatz gives the gps coordinates as well as addressses which makes it really easy to find them.

Southern Belgium was attractive (but avoid the Antwerp ring road in the rush hour!) and the Black Forest was totally amazing. France I always enjoy and of course we came back sounding like a milk float! If you decide to include the Black Forest make sure you go to Schiltach. The stellplatz is right by the river and the village is fascinating.

Happy planning and bonne route! :have fun:

PS Don't give up hope on the long haul destinations. I bought a used RV in the US and wandered 6,000 miles across the states before selling it in San Francisco and in NZ we rented a van to tour both islands — totally amazing and not to be missed! It can be done, just needs a bit of lateral thinking — oh, and a fair bit of cash!


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## MartianTom (Oct 9, 2011)

el-D said:


> I'm sure you won't regret it MT! I don't know if you use a sat-nav. I don't normally but just before departing on this trip my daughter offered me the use of hers. Man was I glad she did! It made life so much easier. The German 'Bordatlas' that lists stellplatz gives the gps coordinates as well as addressses which makes it really easy to find them.
> 
> Southern Belgium was attractive (but avoid the Antwerp ring road in the rush hour!) and the Black Forest was totally amazing. France I always enjoy and of course we came back sounding like a milk float! If you decide to include the Black Forest make sure you go to Schiltach. The stellplatz is right by the river and the village is fascinating.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, el-D, I'll keep those recommendations in mind. 

I tend not to plan anything much when I set out travelling.  I like following instinct, turning left one day instead of right....

A fair bit of cash is the main problem!  I'll figure it, though, somehow.


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## David & Ann (Oct 9, 2011)

As El-D suggests, Antwerp is busy on the ring road but I think it is a wonderful place to visit. A lot of character and fantastic Architecture. I really enjoyed it.
Brugge and Gent are two other Belgium cities which are worth visiting. I will load pictures of these places on here when I get them together, to show what you may be missing.


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## cooljules (Oct 9, 2011)

been there a few times (not intentionally, i just cant read a map!)

touble i had, i wrote places i wanted to visit in english, bought a german map and found that in the countries the places were spelt diff.  ok with antwerp, its antwerpen so not too bad, but a few were totally different.


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## Mastodon (Oct 9, 2011)

MartianTom said:


> That's decided me.  I was planning my first long trip for next spring/summer.  The US was my most favoured location, but the shipping costs are simply too high.  Around the UK was also on the cards.  But Europe it is!


 
Too true... we spent 4 weeks in France and used campsites 3 or 4 times to use washing machines, otherwise Aires  (free or around 5 euros) or France Passion.


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## el-D (Oct 9, 2011)

We didn't do any planning on the Europe trip, just had a tunnel crossing out and back. What happened in between was a day-by-day thing. It works so well over there because you can always find somewhere to lay your head, it doesn't have to be a campsite. All we knew was that we wanted to 'do' the Black Forest and wander back through France at leisure.

In the US we had a few folks to visit scattered across the country, hence the very zig-zag route and the 6,000 miles from Florida to San Fran', but apart from that we just went as we wanted to and were free to take up suggestions from folks we met. Without that we would not have seen 'The Badlands' or maybe Bryce Canyon.

NZ was a bit different as we have family near Auckland and spent some of our visit to the country with them. We took off for 3 weeks on our own in the rented RV and had to be fairly disciplined over getting too side-tracked. That would have been all too easy since NZ is THE most fabulous country to travel in and the people are so-o-o-o friendly.


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## el-D (Oct 9, 2011)

cooljules said:


> been there a few times (not intentionally, i just cant read a map!)
> 
> touble i had, i wrote places i wanted to visit in english, bought a german map and found that in the countries the places were spelt diff.  ok with antwerp, its antwerpen so not too bad, but a few were totally different.


 
I speak reasonably good French but my German is virtually non-existent so I think I left a trail of somewhat bewildered Germans behind me! Happily they are so good-natured that it was all good fun. Don't even start to think about Flemish! I think they know this and consequently pretty well everyone speaks English, fortunately!


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## David & Ann (Oct 9, 2011)

Mastodon said:


> Too true... we spent 4 weeks in France and used campsites 3 or 4 times to use washing machines, otherwise Aires  (free or around 5 euros) or France Passion.


 

That is what I call a free washing maschine, ofcourse free☺☺☺


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## el-D (Oct 9, 2011)

Encouragement: between the trees and the building you can see some 'vans parked. This is the stellplatz at Schiltach in the Black Forest.
(Click the thumbnail for a larger image. I've yet to find out how to post full size in the post itself!)


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## cooljules (Oct 9, 2011)

el-D said:


> I speak reasonably good French but my German is virtually non-existent so I think I left a trail of somewhat bewildered Germans behind me! Happily they are so good-natured that it was all good fun. Don't even start to think about Flemish! I think they know this and consequently pretty well everyone speaks English, fortunately!


 i cant speak french at all (never camped there and just drive as fast as i can out) but very good german...i love camping in germany, clean, nice etc.   cant wait to do it again.


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## el-D (Oct 9, 2011)

cooljules said:


> i cant speak french at all (never camped there and just drive as fast as i can out) but very good german...i love camping in germany, clean, nice etc.   cant wait to do it again.


 
Ah well, next time you're there, if you see those bewildered Germans you'll know why! They're still recovering from my ill-treatment of their language.


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## cooljules (Oct 9, 2011)

el-D said:


> Ah well, next time you're there, if you see those bewildered Germans you'll know why! They're still recovering from my ill-treatment of their language.


 
never been down to bavaria, and i belive they have a accent that no other german can understand     i do the north and east.  i find the german language so easy, but then having lots of german girlfriends, and at the time didnt know a word, so learnt quickly so i knew what they were saying about me 

Poland is nice too, plan going down through Cz to slovinia etc and slowly working my back to England, a good month/6 week trip with the dogs in the summer


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## christine (Oct 10, 2011)

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought Certificated sites in the Camping Club were priced as a unit - a unit being two adults and two children. I am pretty sure the caravan Club has a similar policy. We reported one site that was charging per person and they had to amend their price band.


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