# knowledge required for clutch/gears



## justdoitviv (Jul 21, 2015)

Broke down 4 times in 2 weeks along coast with same problem. Eventually gave up and got towed home cause I developed yet a different problem, not discussed here....... But then maybe its related? Fan to cool engine doesn't switch off. But I know how to remove the fuse now and knock that round thing on the radiator which holds the relays. 

I can change gears smoothly. No problem. After 20 min driving, 1st and 2nd gears  gets difficult and stiff to change, until eventually so is 3rd hard to get.  Occasionally, but rarely reverse  gear crunches at this stage.... then I cant get any gears at all. NONE.  You cant even FORCE the gears in.  By the time the breakdown people come, the gears are fine. 

Reasoning........... when the engine gets hot or something gets hot or 20/30 min travelling.....the gears don’t work.

BREAK DOWN  people gave several reasons and kept changing the reasons.
1.  clutch cable...........new one was installed at 2nd visit.
2.  New clutch needed. Had a new one 8 months ago, and showed them the receipt
3.  Gear cable
4.  Gear linkage

I FOUND OUT ON THE INTERNET THAT same problem occurs if
1.  gear box has lost oil
2.  Gear box need oil changing, every 40.000 miles.

MOBILE MECHANIC  says
1.  You are probably leaking oil between ...something ...engine and gear box . Dont worry we can fix it for you for £600 pounds, and top you up with oil. 

2nd MOBILE MECHANIC  says
1.  No.... your gear box does not have a separate oil thingy. It shares the same oil as the engine does. (he is wrong).  You need new gears. Very expensive job. 

FIAT  GARAGE SAID
1. My gears DO have its own oil thingy. In his opinion it cant be the gear cable or gear linkage because i can get gears ok when the engine is off.  It must be the clutch assembly or clutch pressure plate.?????????
 i can get gears ok, when engine ok, or the engine switched off.

THE GARAGE ITS BOOKED INTO..NOW CHANGED DATE TO TOMORROW SAID
1.  OHHHHHH a big job. Several days at least.  Need to take the gears out, inspect them, you could have an oil leak between the engine and gear box as well. These gear boxes are known trouble makers and you could be looking at a rebuild of gears.

Now I do know these gear boxes do have trouble ie.........5th gear. But I am not having that problem yet. I have a different problem.

Any ideas before tomorrow? I could lank up paying for a new clutch, then a new gear box, when I might only need oil


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## eddyt (Jul 21, 2015)

it sounds like the the clutch release bearing fork is bending or cracked. will need gearbox removed 
to replace it


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jul 21, 2015)

Viv these are the people to speak to

Alf


Gearbox, Gear Linkages and Diff


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## st3v3 (Jul 21, 2015)

eddyt said:


> it sounds like the the clutch release bearing fork is bending or cracked. will need gearbox removed
> to replace it



Something around this area I think.

Have you ever had any experience changing gear without using the clutch? Does this work when you can't otherwise get gears? If you can, that would just about rule out the gearbox.


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## justdoitviv (Jul 21, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Something around this area I think.
> 
> Have you ever had any experience changing gear without using the clutch? Does this work when you can't otherwise get gears? If you can, that would just about rule out the gearbox.



Didn't know you could change gears without using the clutch. Is this with the engine running or not.? Will be up early for a 30 min drive and experiment. Thanks


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## justdoitviv (Jul 21, 2015)

eddyt said:


> it sounds like the the clutch release bearing fork is bending or cracked. will need gearbox removed
> to replace it



Is this part possible to go with a new clutch replaced 8 months ago? Is this an expensive job?


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## GWAYGWAY (Jul 21, 2015)

It does certainly sound like Clutch Drag, something is causing the plate and flywheel to hang up. This causes  the engine torque to be transmitted to the gearbox and if the gears are under a stress they will not release from each other cleanly.. A clutchless change trial  might tell if the problem is in the clutch.. Oil on the plate and flywheel will cause stiction and drag and then  slip.  Also is it a dual mass flywheel as they can go wrong as well giving all manner of weird affects.


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## st3v3 (Jul 21, 2015)

justdoitviv said:


> Didn't know you could change gears without using the clutch. Is this with the engine running or not.? Will be up early for a 30 min drive and experiment. Thanks



Yes, engine running and moving. It's something that needs practice though.  

Accelerate to the speed you want to change gear. Gently push gearstick towards neutral and ease off the throttle. When there is no load on the gears it will go into neutral. Let the revs fall applying pressure towards the next gear. It will pop in when the revs are right. 3rd to 4th is probably easiest, but I can't recommend this if you haven't done it before!


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## eddyt (Jul 21, 2015)

justdoitviv said:


> Is this part possible to go with a new clutch replaced 8 months ago? Is this an expensive job?



they probably did not replace the clutch fork as it does not come with the 
clutch kit.


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## trevskoda (Jul 21, 2015)

as others have said clutchless g changes will rule out box and point to faulty clutch or if duel mass flywheel breaking up,but first see if there is oil in box and if leaking at drive output or between g/box and engine.
if where you park it has no oil patches and box is full and when driving no whine or low growling is evadent then its clutch related,ps get a expert driver or a ex bike rider to test clutchless gear changes as bikes are ridden this way though they have a constant box rather than a syncromesh but it will work for testing.


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## richardstubbs (Jul 21, 2015)

For goodness sake don't let them take the gearbox out without checking the oil first! It only takes 10 minutes.

I don't agree with any of your mechanics really though; it certainly sounds like a clutch problem, not a gearbox one. Can't really imagine it's the release fork, because it's obviously temperature related if it goes away when it is stopped for a bit, unless it's somehow not letting the clutch disengage fully.

The first place I'd look is clutch cable adjustment - if it's had a new one they tend to stretch a bit over the first few hundred / thousand miles and need tightening a bit, alternatively it could be too tight from when it ws fitted. Either of these things will cause the clutch to get hot, either through slip or drag, which will eventually lead to it expanding and dragging so much it'll give the symptoms you describe. The occasional grinding of reverse confirms the drag, at least partly.

If it's not the cable, and sorry, but I doubt it, then the gearbox will need to come out to inspect the clutch. Unfortunately that is a big job, although one which a competent mechanic should be used to. It's perfectly possible that a new-ish clutch is defective - I changed one a few weeks ago on a car I've just sold which was in as new condition except for a broken 'ear' on the release bearing. It exhibited pretty much exactly the same symptoms as yours and I know for a fact that it was only 12,000 miles or so old. That was an Alfa, so it's really a Fiat.

Certainly try changing gear clutchless - it's much easier going up the box than down - practise before it's playing up and then try again when it is. As the other posters say, if it changes gear ok (with a bit of a crunch!) then it's definitely the clutch.


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## eddyt (Jul 21, 2015)

it might just need the gear linkages adjusting. I just replaced clutch on my hymer a few weeks ago
and i needed to adjust the gear linkage a bit after


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jul 21, 2015)

As far as I remember Vivs van is a 1985 Ducato I would suspect a poor misaligned gear linkage before anything else.    
Rather than the type of garage and mechanics that Viv seems to go to a Gearbox Specialist would be a better bet, I would also advise Viv not to try the clutches gear change I would think she would do more harm than good on the old Ducato it's not an easy change especially if as I suspect a poor gear linkage

Alf


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## justdoitviv (Jul 22, 2015)

Alf 1 said:


> Viv these are the people to speak to
> 
> Alf
> 
> ...



that is one hell of a lot of reading. means it can be anything......even the word engine which scares me....


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## Steve121 (Jul 22, 2015)

Several years ago I had a similar problem with a motorcycle gearchange shortly after the bike it had had it's first service. It was OK for a while, but as the engine/gearbox warmed up it became increasingly difficult to change hear. Turned out it was because the mechanic had put TOO MUCH OIL in the gearbox. I undid the level plug, let drain to the correct level and it was fine.


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## trevskoda (Jul 22, 2015)

Steve121 said:


> Several years ago I had a similar problem with a motorcycle gearchange shortly after the bike it had had it's first service. It was OK for a while, but as the engine/gearbox warmed up it became increasingly difficult to change hear. Turned out it was because the mechanic had put TOO MUCH OIL in the gearbox. I undid the level plug, let drain to the correct level and it was fine.



thats right my brother inlaw decided to fill his gt 500 box to the top after i had serviced it,2 miles down the road it locked up,when he returned it to me it took me a we while to find as it had cooled and worked ok but when i asked him about it he went qt and red faced as he has a problem and cant leave things alone.


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## justdoitviv (Jul 22, 2015)

Alf 1 said:


> As far as I remember Vivs van is a 1985 Ducato I would suspect a poor misaligned gear linkage before anything else.
> Rather than the type of garage and mechanics that Viv seems to go to a Gearbox Specialist would be a better bet, I would also advise Viv not to try the clutches gear change I would think she would do more harm than good on the old Ducato it's not an easy change especially if as I suspect a poor gear linkage
> 
> Alf[/QUO
> 1985 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1ts 1998  wont do clutchless change. will start with replacing oil, and checking for oil leak, and adjusting clutch cable.....bring it home to try out, and see about the rest of the stuff if it doesn't work.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jul 22, 2015)

Sorry Viv. That's why when asking for advice it's always important to give all details of the van you can put these in your profile it get better replies more specific to your van.

Alf




justdoitviv said:


> Alf 1 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as I remember Vivs van is a 1985 Ducato I would suspect a poor misaligned gear linkage before anything else.
> ...


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## caledonia (Jul 22, 2015)

Sounds like an oil problem. It's obviously the heating up that's causing your problem. Low or wrong oil? I would put engine oil in your gearbox, (not an ep 80/90) which is thinner and will make changing when warmed up easier. Get your local garage to drain box and fill with good engine oil. Certainly cheaper than removing the gearbox.


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## Steve121 (Jul 22, 2015)

caledonia said:


> Sounds like an oil problem. It's obviously the heating up that's causing your problem. Low or wrong oil? I would put engine oil in your gearbox, (not an ep 80/90) which is thinner and will make changing when warmed up easier. Get your local garage to drain box and fill with good engine oil. Certainly cheaper than removing the gearbox.



Very bad idea. Putting the wrong type of oil in a gearbox will most likely lead to very expensive failure. If it needs EP (Extreme Pressure) oil it's for a very good reason, ie. to resist the high pressures. Gearboxes designed for regular engine oil are built differently.

Changing the oil type or viscosity is only likely to mask the real problem.


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## caledonia (Jul 22, 2015)

A manual gearbox will be fine with engine oil. Ask any g/box specialist.


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## Steve121 (Jul 22, 2015)

caledonia said:


> A manual gearbox will be fine with engine oil. Ask any g/box specialist.



I have done, which is why I made that comment. Some gearboxes, eg. LT77, R380 have very specific oil requirements.


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## richardstubbs (Jul 22, 2015)

caledonia said:


> A manual gearbox will be fine with engine oil. Ask any g/box specialist.



True-ish, but the EP additive is for the final drive as much as the gearbox. The final drive shares the gearbox oil on a front-wheel-drive (except Trafics), so it needs to be EP. Best to use whatever the manufacturer says really, except if it's noisy through age, when a thicker grade can help a bit.

The wrong grade won't make it stiffer as it warms up, but stiffer when it's cold. All oil gets thinner when it's hot, just multigrade doesn't get as much thinner. Also, gearbox SAE 90 is about the same as engine oil at SAE 40 so no point anyway.

Good point about the level - certainly possible, although I'd expect a noticeable leak from a seriously overfilled gearbox.

There's an interesting document about gearbox oil here:
http://www.bestlubeusa.com/gearlube.pdf

P.S. Irrelevant, but the Mercedes car I had in France took Automatic Transmission Fluid in its *manual* gearbox. Always seemed much too thin to me, but it had done 460,000km when I sold it on its original, virtually silent gearbox. It was designed for it - I wouldn't put it in anything else.


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## eddyt (Jul 22, 2015)

take it back to those who fitted new clutch 8 months ago. It will still be under warranty


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## harrow (Jul 22, 2015)

caledonia said:


> A manual gearbox will be fine with engine oil. Ask any g/box specialist.



Really?
I can only remember where you could use engine oil in a gearbox, was that an austin A40?

And of course the old minis with combined engine and gearbox


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

The scary / irritating thing about this thread is just how totally inept and/or ripoff some so-called mechanics are. 
3 different opinions and not one considers the clutch, while the likelihood of one actually stripping a gearbox to check gears is dead suspicious.
If the box is quiet and changes cleanly when cold then that to me suggests it's mechanically ok. It's really not likely to be engine, except possibly a rear crank oil seal leaking onto the drive plate. 
If it was hydraulic clutch I'd consider the master or slave cylinder, but as its stated as cable clutch that's out. 
Gear oil level is a good shout, though I'd be looking at clutch/ clutch actuation as the likely culprit. 

One thing is certain Viv.... I wouldn't be using any of the jokers you got the initial possible diagnosis from. I wouldn't let those bodging chancers change a headlight bulb, nor trust them to not charge me for a whole engine to cure it :lol-053:


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

Btw... I read it somewhere when researching about getting an old Fiat camper, that the 5th gear problem can be prevented by running something like the recommended gear oil level plus an extra half-litre (or something very similar). Something to do with when they added the 5th gear it was slightly starved due to its position, and Fiat took a while and some fails to suss it out. 

That's not 100% certain btw - but worth looking into. 

G.


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## justdoitviv (Jul 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> The scary / irritating thing about this thread is just how totally inept and/or ripoff some so-called mechanics are.
> 3 different opinions and not one considers the clutch, while the likelihood of one actually stripping a gearbox to check gears is dead suspicious.
> If the box is quiet and changes cleanly when cold then that to me suggests it's mechanically ok. It's really not likely to be engine, except possibly a rear crank oil seal leaking onto the drive plate.
> If it was hydraulic clutch I'd consider the master or slave cylinder, but as its stated as cable clutch that's out.
> ...



Sorry ..my fault....everyone did say the clutch as first diagnoses. It was me who insisted that it cant be because I had a new clutch fitted, and wanted to know what else it could be. 
Turns out it is the clutch. Which has now given me a bigger headache.

I had the oil done, which only had 1l in instead of 2l, but I don't have a leak. The garage said it is the clutch because there is no more adjustment left on the cable and that the clutch pedal is only two inches instead of 6 inches , something or other. They said it either not a new clutch or a poor quality one where the plate is bending.

Now the car would not drive even 10 min, so had no choice but to go back to the garage who did the clutch, who agreed that the clutch was wrong. He striped the new cable down and put in a spacer. Is there any complications with this????? How come no one else did this???  I am not sure yet if this works but I did manage to travel 10 min home. 

This is what he said to me....What do you want me to do Viv? I can take it out and send it back to be checked but they will just send it back saying there is nothing wrong with it, or they will say it was fitted wrong, or they will say its down to your driving.  Who is going to pay for the labour? 

Now that I think about it..........I don't think he put a new clutch in. When the 1st break down person came he said the cable is at the end of the adjustment already there isn't any more adjustment left. So how can I have a new clutch fitted, and immediately the cable is at the end of the adjustment? Is this possible?


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

justdoitviv said:


> Sorry ..my fault....everyone did say the clutch as first diagnoses. It was me who insisted that it cant be because I had a new clutch fitted, and wanted to know what else it could be.
> Turns out it is the clutch. Which has now given me a bigger headache.
> 
> I had the oil done, which only had 1l in instead of 2l, but I don't have a leak. The garage said it is the clutch because there is no more adjustment left on the cable and that the clutch pedal is only two inches instead of 6 inches , something or other. They said it either not a new clutch or a poor quality one where the plate is bending.
> ...



Sorry Viv but he is a botcher. All he has done is give the cable in effect more outer so making the inner 'shorter' and enable the excess travel to be taken up. It's a very short term botch that does nothing to cure the problem. He is making excuses IMO when it sounds like the job wasn't done right in the first place (if done at all). 
If he won't fix it then maybe threaten to go elsewhere and photo the clutch as its removed and witness it, and consider a visit to Trading standards?

G.


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## eddyt (Jul 23, 2015)

get him to remove clutch and send it back. If its faulty the manufacturer will pay labour. if it was not fitted 
corectly he is responsible for labour. Go to trading standards.


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## justdoitviv (Jul 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Sorry Viv but he is a botcher. All he has done is give the cable in effect more outer so making the inner 'shorter' and enable the excess travel to be taken up. It's a very short term botch that does nothing to cure the problem. He is making excuses IMO when it sounds like the job wasn't done right in the first place (if done at all).
> If he won't fix it then maybe threaten to go elsewhere and photo the clutch as its removed and witness it, and consider a visit to Trading standards?
> 
> G.


He said he can take it out and send it back. But do I want to do that because they will just come back and say its not broken or that its my bad driving or some other excuses and am I prepared to pay his wages if that happens.

Now I was before twice in this situation so how do I prevent this happening .
So I take the van in, he sends off the clutch, a few days later he will say,............ no luck viv they say its down to bad driving. Its not like I can drive my van away and take it to another garage..... I will be forced to pay out another lot of money for another clutch with HIM.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jul 23, 2015)

The best answer might be to go to a more reliable garage and explain to them get a new clutch fitted ask for the old one back and ask the first garage to pay something towards of the cost the job.

Its difficult trying to be in your position but flitting from disreputable garages and dealer does not help find a good garage and stay with them.
Again try trading standards ask for their help also ask them to recommend a garage to you.

Alf




justdoitviv said:


> He said he can take it out and send it back. But do I want to do that because they will just come back and say its not broken or that its my bad driving or some other excuses and am I prepared to pay his wages if that happens.
> 
> Now I was before twice in this situation so how do I prevent this happening .
> So I take the van in, he sends off the clutch, a few days later he will say,............ no luck viv they say its down to bad driving. Its not like I can drive my van away and take it to another garage..... I will be forced to pay out another lot of money for another clutch with HIM.


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

A new clutch plate should not be worn in 8-mths. If it is then it should be down to riding the clutch and cooking it- you'll know if you had done this coz it would have got hot and grabby and stunk to high heaven. It'd also show signs of overheating such as blueing of the drive plate when removed. 

If the friction plate just looks worn and thinned close to the rivets but otherwise normal, then it wasn't changed.

Or... It was  changed, but it was skimped on and just the friction plate changed but not the pressure plate and the thrust bearing maybe?  A worn and tired pressure plate with a new friction plate can cause problems. Anyone with some idea what they are looking at could tell what was put in 8-mths ago and what's been in there a lot longer. 

Of course it could be that the clutch was changed properly, but your  engine rear crank oil seal or your gearbox input drive seal has failed and it's oil contamination of the friction plate causing the issue ( as the issue gets worse with engine temp and miles this is entirely feasible). This would be noticeable as soon as the clutch was removed. If it is this, then you'll need a new oil se and another new clutch I'm afraid, and you'll have to pay the labour too. 

In case, I would online research the cost of a clutch kit for your Ducato. Then ask your 'mechanic' for a price to fit a new clutch in advance. Then you'll a) know roughly how much he is stinging you got labour, and b) can shop around for other quotes for the work and see if he's taking the mick. 

You need that clutch out, and if the Herbert that fitted it turns out to be expensive as well as questionable then maybe getting it done elsewhere to find the truth out and also to minimise the actual cost? 

If the clutch foes prove to have been iffy or badly done, and you've evidence with pics etc and the parts, then you can always go back to the guy and tell him to pay your bill from new place or you're off to Trading Standards with the evidence and a formal complaint?

Edit: all this take the clutch out n send back for a decision also sounds a bit bogus to me. He'd know straight away whether the clutch was defective or not as soon as he looked at it once removed... And his supplier would almost certainly send him another without quibbling much if he is a regular trade customer of the Factor he sourced it from. The supplier won't mess a Trade buyer around and risk losing his custom for the sake of a defective clutch out that probably cost less than £200 IMO.


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## trevskoda (Jul 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> The scary / irritating thing about this thread is just how totally inept and/or ripoff some so-called mechanics are.
> 3 different opinions and not one considers the clutch, while the likelihood of one actually stripping a gearbox to check gears is dead suspicious.
> If the box is quiet and changes cleanly when cold then that to me suggests it's mechanically ok. It's really not likely to be engine, except possibly a rear crank oil seal leaking onto the drive plate.
> If it was hydraulic clutch I'd consider the master or slave cylinder, but as its stated as cable clutch that's out.
> ...



engine oil cannot get onto drive plate as its at the rear of flywheel and cannot get round the corner as centrafuge will throw it of back,but gearbox front seal leak will splash on plate but you should see a drip or a messy splodge round the bottom of bell housing.


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

If it was only just the available adjustment all used up... Then my bet would be that an old and knackered drive pressure plate was the culprit, and that your monkey charged you for a half-assed botch-job 8-mths back. 

It's the fact that it gets worse with the engine temp that stops me putting money on it, as the above would be pretty crap all the time. 

But... There looks to mention of clutch pedal travel being down to 2" instead of 6"..... Which you hadn't noticed? No offence if I'm right here... but failing to notice hardly any clutch pedal travel which is a BIG warning flag of an iffy clutch suggests that you don't have a great deal of feel or empathy with your vehicle... And might well have had a van with a knackered pressure plate all this time simply by missing the big clue of a short travel pedal ( which would suggest it's always been marginal and with very little tolerance for clutch engage/disengage. 

It's so hard to qualify with the info available... But the pendulum for me right now swings towards a shot pressure plate (either a bad new one, or the bad monkey never swapped the old one out at all).


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## GRWXJR (Jul 23, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> engine oil cannot get onto drive plate as its at the rear of flywheel and cannot get round the corner as centrafuge will throw it of back,but gearbox front seal leak will splash on plate but you should see a drip or a messy splodge round the bottom of bell housing.



Viv did mention that the gearbox was a litre shy, but that there was no leak.  But if the leak was into the clutch housing it may well not be obvious. So yes I had considered a gear oil leak.  Gear oil and clutch plate material usually has a horrid stink though (gear oil smells nasty as hell IMO) and the lack of any nasty pong has stopped me from putting it top of my list. 

I know engine seal leak cause is less likely.. But it is possible if the leak is bad and the design lets it track oil down the shaft to the drive plate. Again engine oil loss isn't mentioned though , so it's just a slim possibility. 

At the mo my money is still on a crap pressure plate


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## trevskoda (Jul 23, 2015)

sounds to me that no clutch was ever fitted they prob only ajusted the old one and robbed you a very common practice.
though i new a old man who required a clutch every month as he controled the speed of car with clutch and never changed down also sat with his foot on it when driving and at lights to.


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## GRWXJR (Jul 24, 2015)

eddyt said:


> get him to remove clutch and send it back. If its faulty the manufacturer will pay labour. if it was not fitted
> corectly he is responsible for labour. Go to trading standards.



Just revisited this thread, and noticed this post.

I'd think that the statement that if the clutch is new but defective that the supplier will pay the Labour to replace with a new free clutch part is unlikely.

The garage would have sourced a clutch kit from a Factors - its highly unlikely it'd be a genuine Fiat component.  The Motor Factors will undoubtedly have a replacement policy, but their T's & C's to the Garage will exclude any "consequential damages" such as Labour to remove the 'box, fit the new clutch and reinstate the 'box a 2nd time.

Really a responsible garage accepts the 'risk' that if their Motor Factors supplies a defective item that they have to take it on the chin and stand for the Labour to replace it a 2nd time off their own back (its also a good incentive not to use really shoddy nasty parts esp. in something like a clutch too - there are decent and affordable aftermarket clutch kits from well-established manufacturers).

In short - if it WAS a bad new clutch properly fitted - most likely the supplier would provide a new clutch kit, and the garage would swap it out at little or no charge (as long as it wasn't genuinely caused by misuse or an oil leak or other external factor of course).

The big worry for me is the statement Viv made about pedal travel... if the travel has 'always been like that' (as in short throw before AND after the alleged new clutch was fitted).... then I'd have alarm bells clanging madly that Viv was ripped off 8-mths ago and (as Trev said) charged for a new clutch job when all he did was adjust the cable up.  If this IS the case... then he is a proper muppet, as he'd have found the short travel pedal, and felt the clutch bite and release was close together... and should have KNOWN it would not last long.

I think the pedal travel snippet is key and should be cleared up... as it may be the key to making the decision whether to risk possibly being bamboozled and fleeced further by a Shyster covering his arse, or risking another mechanic in the hope that this new one is straight and fair?

My boss also runs a Commercial Workshop... and I've seen both sides.  You get things that can be the fault of the parts or the fitter, and you get dumb things done by customers who also have unrealistic expectations or indeed try to scream murder to get stuff fixed for nothing when it really isn't fair or the fault of the workshop - so its never cut and dried.  So far though I'd say the finger of suspicion points at the bloke in the oily romper suit.


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## Byronic (Jul 24, 2015)

My money is on a distorted clutch plate, gearbox was allowed to hang when being installed, as clutch heats up distortion is magnified and clutch fails to fully disengage. But then again could be any one of the aforementioned reasons already given.


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## saxonborg (Jul 24, 2015)

Byronic said:


> My money is on a distorted clutch plate, gearbox was allowed to hang when being installed, as clutch heats up distortion is magnified and clutch fails to fully disengage. But then again could be any one of the aforementioned reasons already given.


Could be the spigot bearing in the flywheel seizing as the engine gets warm, when the engine cools again it will generally release again, the effect of the seizure will be to lock the engine to the gearbox and thus make gearchanges difficult. Replacing this bearing can be overlooked. Using the wrong grade of oil in the gearbox usually shows up as a sticky change but as the gearbox oil warms up gearchanges get easier as the synchronisers can do their job properly. You would still have to split engine and gearbox to effect a repair to the spigot bearing.


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## Byronic (Jul 24, 2015)

3 insitu mechanics and even they can't agree. What chance with internet diagnostics, could be this, could be that. I've taken out a 3 to 1 bet for my could be


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## terrywolf (Jul 24, 2015)

the only way to find out is to remove the box. where i work it would not have been given back if not working fine.


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## pheasantplucker (Jul 24, 2015)

justdoitviv said:


> Didn't know you could change gears without using the clutch. Is this with the engine running or not.? Will be up early for a 30 min drive and experiment. Thanks





In the late 60s there was a big problem with Vauxhall Vivas breaking clutch cables faster than they could be manufactured and I drove a Viva van around Exeter for the greater part of 9 months with no clutch. There was synchromesh, of course, but still needed to match shaft speeds and feel the gears in. Tailshaft bearing wasn't that happy though.
Did the same on a Ford Sierra when gout made using the clutch a bit painful!

Worth the experiment I should think.

Another problem with changing gear was the loss of ten of the twelve bolts connecting engine and gearbox and the remaining two being almost undone, allowing depressing the clutch to move the gearbox backwards rather than disengage the clutch!

Hope it's something that daft.


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## jamesuk (Jul 24, 2015)

I don't know where you are in the Uk but I can recommend Transmission services in Guildford, Surrey. They did my 5th gear on my last Ducato and they know what they are doing.
If it was me I would take it somewhere else, get it sorted and then issue legal proceedings against the original garage with evidence provided by the new one.
I'd bet it was bodged.
I was in the motor trade and Sadly there are still a lot of idiots and sharks out there.
Hope you get it sorted.


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## trevskoda (Jul 24, 2015)

saxonborg said:


> Could be the spigot bearing in the flywheel seizing as the engine gets warm, when the engine cools again it will generally release again, the effect of the seizure will be to lock the engine to the gearbox and thus make gearchanges difficult. Replacing this bearing can be overlooked. Using the wrong grade of oil in the gearbox usually shows up as a sticky change but as the gearbox oil warms up gearchanges get easier as the synchronisers can do their job properly. You would still have to split engine and gearbox to effect a repair to the spigot bearing.



some front wheel drive cars vans dont have a spigot bearing ,my soda dont have one the g/box splines end at the clutch plate.


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## eddyt (Jul 25, 2015)

had my gearbox out the other week it does have a spigot bearing on 1994 fiat hymer.
if spigot bearing was siesing it would make a noise when pedal was pressed. Although if the needle rollers
came out of spigot bearing and lodged in pressure plate it would cause the symptons. oil leaking onto plate 
would only cause it to slip.


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## Rob H (Jul 25, 2015)

*knowledge required for clutch/gears.*

Hi 

There's no cheap way out of this, your comments indicate a poor or 'bodge' job has been done, suggest you arrange for your vehicle to be taken to a reputable garage, (if still local to the original garage I would not mention were the original work was done), ask them to examine from 'the cheapest end' .... 1) clutch pedal box 2) the new cable, back to 3) clutch housing and lastly if no other fault found externally, 4) remove gear box to examine Clutch assembly including release lever and pivot assembly and fix it when they find the fault, and call you and show you the fault so you can photograph it with an engineers written report, for a possible claim £££ against the garage that did the initial work. An experienced impartial motor engineer will identify the fault.

low gear box oil, .... possibly drained out while box on garage floor when originally removed, not topped up on refit ...

Rgrds,

Rob H.


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## Steve121 (Jul 25, 2015)

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think you must give the garage which did the job in the first place the opportunity to rectify the problem. It's my understanding that if you go elsewhere to get it fixed the original garage will be under no legal obligation to reimburse you.


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## jamesuk (Jul 25, 2015)

It depends if there is any guarantee on the work they did originally. Personally I'd avoid using them again if they are not up to the job.


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## Steve121 (Jul 25, 2015)

jamesuk said:


> It depends if there is any guarantee on the work they did originally. Personally I'd avoid using them again if they are not up to the job.



All work carried out by a tradesman is guaranteed, regardless of what they might think, it's the law.


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## justdoitviv (Aug 6, 2015)

*no longer possibe*



Steve121 said:


> I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think you must give the garage which did the job in the first place the opportunity to rectify the problem. It's my understanding that if you go elsewhere to get it fixed the original garage will be under no legal obligation to reimburse you.


I did go back to the garage who fitted the clutch. Who agreed that there was a clutch problem. I did mention early what he said my choices were, and he fitted me with a spacer, which did not work


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## CAL (Aug 6, 2015)

Hi Viv, sorry to hear of your probs and can't advise anymore than others on here. 
Just one point, did you make a note of the mileage when the clutch was fitted ? even if you didn't it will be on your last MOT certificate so have a look, you can work out an average monthly distance and if the clutch is only 8 months old and you haven't done a horrendous amount of miles which I doubt, no clutch should have failed in such a short distance. 
It should help, all this talk of faulty plates, bad fitting, bad driving shouldn't be your problem as it's still under warranty, just keep re-enforcing how little mileage it's lasted to the original mechanic and any new ones you may have to go to.
Keep a note of this as if you do go down the trading standards route this should help to explain to a layman who is not mechanically minded how unreasonably quickly the clutch has failed. Hope this helps.


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## justdoitviv (Aug 7, 2015)

*problem solved*



CAL said:


> Hi Viv, sorry to hear of your probs and can't advise anymore than others on here.
> Just one point, did you make a note of the mileage when the clutch was fitted ? even if you didn't it will be on your last MOT certificate so have a look, you can work out an average monthly distance and if the clutch is only 8 months old and you haven't done a horrendous amount of miles which I doubt, no clutch should have failed in such a short distance.
> It should help, all this talk of faulty plates, bad fitting, bad driving shouldn't be your problem as it's still under warranty, just keep re-enforcing how little mileage it's lasted to the original mechanic and any new ones you may have to go to.
> Keep a note of this as if you do go down the trading standards route this should help to explain to a layman who is not mechanically minded how unreasonably quickly the clutch has failed. Hope this helps.



So what happens now. Got new clutch fitted out of my area, and made sure I paid by credit card.  Turns out the wrong size clutch got fitted 8 months ago. I have the photos the garage took of both clutches side by side with a ruler. New clutch is not riding/sliding in easy. Garage says there may be damage done to gears because of the stress the engine would have been under. I have the clutch and the pictures. This is the same garage who said he fitted me with a new turbo and didn't.


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## carol (Aug 7, 2015)

Viv, I'm so sorry to hear of your woes. I'm also a single woman with very little in depth knowledge of how my engine works but I'm lucky to have friends who do who can advise me, and a garage I trust. I think the first thing you need to do is find yourself a garage you can trust....do some research on them. And although it shouldn't be necessary, try and take a male friend who knows what they're talking about when they're giving you their diagnoses. Good luck!


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## justdoitviv (Aug 7, 2015)

carol said:


> Viv, I'm so sorry to hear of your woes. I'm also a single woman with very little in depth knowledge of how my engine works but I'm lucky to have friends who do who can advise me, and a garage I trust. I think the first thing you need to do is find yourself a garage you can trust....do some research on them. And although it shouldn't be necessary, try and take a male friend who knows what they're talking about when they're giving you their diagnoses. Good luck!



I do have a trusted garage I use for works which they can do. Change garages last year. However they don't have the ramp to hold my van, they also don't do engines, nor clutches, nor welding.  I am beginning to understand that garages which allow you to pay by credit card are safer to use. 

I have written to this garage asking for my expenses, and to give me my clutch and turbo money back. Just need to post it off.  I cant report them to trading standards, only citizens advice can, which I have done so. They are also making a note that this is my 2nd complaint against the garage.

As I live in a small area, and this garage man has already done time twice, I can expect a lot of trouble.


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