# Solar



## kate13 (Jan 21, 2008)

Hi all
we are new to all this. We have a solar, invertor, plus a geni, if we go with no hookup, do not use the geni, how long may we get out of battery, we have large lesure, plus the heavy duty for start. Our hm, is a 1996 b544 hymer?
 Sorry but not had time to read all the manual yet?
regards Julie


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2008)

kate13 said:


> Hi all
> we are new to all this. We have a solar, invertor, plus a geni, if we go with no hookup, do not use the geni, how long may we get out of battery, we have large lesure, plus the heavy duty for start. Our hm, is a 1996 b544 hymer?
> Sorry but not had time to read all the manual yet?
> regards Julie



You will need to know the amperage of your leisure batteries and the amperage of every electrical item you are going to use and also the amperage of what the solar panel will put in.
Sorry but it is a little complicated


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## walkers (Jan 22, 2008)

***** said:


> You will need to know the amperage of your leisure batteries and the amperage of every electrical item you are going to use and also the amperage of what the solar panel will put in.
> Sorry but it is a little complicated


i agree it is complicated maybe the easiest way to find out is to try it out and see, take geni with you as a back up. if u are wilding and moving on everyday your battery could last for ages as it will be charged from alternator. if you are static who knows


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

*Depends*



walkers said:


> i agree it is complicated maybe the easiest way to find out is to try it out and see, take geni with you as a back up. if u are wilding and moving on everyday your battery could last for ages as it will be charged from alternator. if you are static who knows



Another factor is the time of the year!
You will obviously be able to go longer in the warm sunny months (if we get any) than the wet cold months.
As Walkers says, it also depends on how much you move around as every time you move the engine alternator will charge the battery up a certain amount


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## Tony Lee (Jan 22, 2008)

There are two ways of doing it. The first is the suck it and see method where you hope the bloke that installed it was an expert and got things at least partly correct.

The second and far more scientifically-correct way is to list all your appliances with their current draw and an estimate of how many hours each day you are likely to use them.  This calculation is done in Amp-hours, often abbreviated Ah. Ampere is capitalized because he was a real person and h is lower case because it isn't a person. I only mention it because some knowledgible people get upset if units are not correct while most so-called experts don't know the different.

So

TV set  --  2 Amps x 2 hours (per day) = 4ah (per day) [Its all per day so I will leave that off]
Water Pump -- 5A x 0.5h = 2.5Ah
Lighting -- 2A x 5h = 10Ah
Computer -- 6A x 2h = 12Ah
Microwave (via the inverter) 100A x 0.1h = 10Ah

So total per day is 4+2.5+10+12+10 = say 40Ah

How many Ah does your FULLY CHARGED battery hold?
say 100Ah

BUT you should only take out HALF of this energy otherwise your battery life will be short. So this means you have 50Ah to play with and you use 40Ah per day -- SO if it is raining or you are north of almost anywhere in central Europe and your solar panels are doing nothing except keeping part of the roof paint from weathering, you can stay for a bit more than 24 hours safely and maybe if you don't use the microwave, you can extend your stay to 2 nights.

How big is your solar panel? Normally rated in Watts just to confuse everyone and to hide the fact that solar panel ratings are one of the biggest legally sanctioned frauds around.

Lets say 100Watts. Everyone knows that Volts x Amps = Watts so since we have a 12V battery system then OBVIOUSLY 12 x A = 100 so your panel will put out 8.5 amps any time the sun happens to be shining. Great! 8.5Amps X 8 hours of sunlight = 68Ah pumped back into the battery every day. WooHoo, you can sell some power to the bloke next door and wild camp forever.

If only.

It is true that if that solar panel is flashed with a light intensity of 1000Watts per square metre for no longer than about 20 milliseconds then the panel will produce energy at the rate of 100W during that brief time. So working on 15Volts which is the voltage at which maximum power transfer takes place (not 12, sorry), the panel will put out 100/15 - say about 7 amps.  Then because your panels are flat on the roof you lose another 10 to 30% power production, and you are say in Finland in winter where there is no sun, the actual peak output might be closer to zero even on a good day. The sun only shines for 2 hours in winter so 2 x close to zero is pretty close to Zero.

In Spain in Summer you may be able to produce more than enough power to wild camp until your water runs out or you have to empty your tanks, but really, you are likely to be short-changed for power even during good weather.

The other complicating factor is if you drive every couple of days for at least a couple of hours, the vehicle alternator will be able to recharge the leisure battery to about 75% of its full capacity.  With a bit of messing around and a long drive and using AGM batteries, you can get close to 100% but not normally. So the day after you have driven, you only have 75%-50% of the battery available so if you get no solar input, you have to drive each day to keep things topped up and even then, since solar may not be too reliable, the end result is that the battery charge gets lower and lower each day. Bad for the battery, especially if it is not charged up promptly.

Now you have a generator. That has a convenient "battery charger" output so that will charge up the battery because it puts out 8Amps. Sorry, but usually it is a fixed voltage peaking out at about 13.7V and that will just not charge a battery up beyond about 65% in any reasonable time. Even if it did, you would need to run it for something close to 4 hours a day to do much good.  
If you have a good quality 3 stage charger that puts out say 20 amps then 3 hours would be close to enough time to get the Battery close to 100% charged - whether from generator or campground 220V supply.
etc
etc
etc.

It's all too difficult because the best you can do is work on averages and they just don't work very well in the real world.

And this mess that I've created above (deliberately) is why the smart posters said to try it and see what happens with your particular set up and your particular lifestyle. As they wisely said -- you need to know exactly how big your battery is and whether it is in good condition (because bad handling over just one winter - or even on one short vacation - will completely wreck a battery) and how big your solar panel is and what loads you are going to run abnd for how long and what other means of charging the battery is on board.

And blah, blah blah ...


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## Tony Lee (Jan 22, 2008)

This was one lot of links that will help you answer your own question.

http://www.phrannie.org/invert.html will advise you on the strengths and limitations of inverters

There are other more sophisticated sites around but this bloke has a no-nonsense style that is quite readable. Most is 5 years old and written for US but still well-current and applicable to your situation.

His other stuff is here
http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html
and if you read and absorb all that is applicable to motorhoming in UK and Europe, you will be well qualified to come back here tomorrow and be the one giving the advice.

If you are holed up in a snow storm and getting bored go to the sources and resources link http://www.phrannie.org/sources.html and start reading. You may end up being even more bored but you will be knowledgeable and bored, which is better than being merely bored.


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## Don (Jan 22, 2008)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## Don (Jan 22, 2008)

Sorry fell asleep and forgot to sign.

Don


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jan 22, 2008)

You will need more than 2x 110A of batteries. You will need in excess of 80w of solar panel. If you must have a Genny (and you want to wild it) then you will need a Kipor or a Honda silent type Genny. You don't want to advertise your presence, do you?
Now if you are prepared for that level of expediture then you're in with a chance: Please don't get the idea that it can be done on the cheap because you are talking about expensive items.


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## Telstar (Jan 22, 2008)

*battery power*

I would like to add that before I got the motorhome we used to rally in a caravan, (same as wildcamping in that we had no electric).  We easily went 5 days without worrying in spring/summer.  Just use the power sensibly, for example if you have a small van why put on the blown air heating! the fire heats the van up.  But as the others have said, give it a go first.  Our current van has two bulbs in each ceiling light, I've just removed one from each and I can still see to do everything perfectly well using half the power.  I am hoping to start investing in LED lighting, replacing bulbs as they go. Yes there is a massive cost difference but this way it shouldn't be painful.

Jon


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## kate13 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thank you to all
I will have a read up, and try out
Regards Julie


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## Nosha (Jan 22, 2008)

Kate, Tony's answer really is the best... i.e. Suck it and see. We went to Poole last year and tried without hook up, after 3 days of lights, 15" TV & Freeview box the battery display was showing 50% (what ever that means?) anyway everything was still working fine. We then went out for the day so the battery was charged up and we started all over again!!! All those times I've paid for hook up and really it's not been needed.

So my advice is take the genny/hook up lead and see how you get on, providing you have a seperate engine battery then it doesn't matter if the battery does go flat does it?


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## walkers (Jan 22, 2008)

Nosha said:


> Kate, Tony's answer really is the best... i.e. Suck it and see. We went to Poole last year and tried without hook up, after 3 days of lights, 15" TV & Freeview box the battery display was showing 50% (what ever that means?) anyway everything was still working fine. We then went out for the day so the battery was charged up and we started all over again!!! All those times I've paid for hook up and really it's not been needed.
> 
> So my advice is take the genny/hook up lead and see how you get on, providing you have a seperate engine battery then it doesn't matter if the battery does go flat does it?


in my last van i could easily do a weekend, but then i did drive everyday over the weekend. don't know with the new one has halogen lighting, so like telstar i will be looking in to led so there is less drain on the battery, and of course less heat produced from them too


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## cas (Jan 22, 2008)

I dont even use a leisure battery, then again when im wilding it I go to get away no tv, dvds or any of that what I can do at home after a couple of times you soon get to know how long your battery will last, and if it goes flat you have an early night or sit outside by a fire if possable, as long as its not your main battery its not really a problem, I sometimes go in my van in the dark just so that I know my way round if needed but then I am a kinda layed back person


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2008)

walkers said:


> in my last van i could easily do a weekend, but then i did drive everyday over the weekend. don't know with the new one has halogen lighting, so like telstar i will be looking in to led so there is less drain on the battery, and of course less heat produced from them too



A weekend should not be a problem, in the winter, and during the summer I would expect a lot more.
At the Cromford meet weekend my batteries were fine and we never used the geny


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have used this company for LEDs in the past and the service has been first rate http://www.virtualvillage.com/Store/Search.aspx?sck=18911272&Page=1&Sort=1&key=LED The LEDs cam all the way from China!
There is also http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/-p-263.html
I'm told that if you want 230vAC LEDs, then it is far cheaper to buy them in Europe. The UK has not caught up on them yet. 

Sorry, one day I'll get the hang of putting in a proper link


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## tresrikay (Jan 22, 2008)

*Another suggestion*

To extend your battery life it is essential to cut your power. I have just changed all my Halogen lighting to L.E.D and at this time of year I am Hoping to cut my draw substantially. Each light will now draw about 1amp and you can now get both warm and white replacements. It has taken about an hour to replace them, so I now don't need to worry about leaving lights on in the long winter nights.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 22, 2008)

"Each light will now draw about 1amp"

Possibly 1Watt which is around 1/10th of an amp rather than 1Amp???

Some LED globes are quite bluish which does terrible things to the appearance of skin and food, so it is best to try one before splashing out to replace the lot.

I built a few LED lights using white and warm-white LEDs and they certainly help conserve battery power and are ideal as reading lights or small task lighting, but they do have disadvantages when it comes to providing a nice warm even light over a large area. Low voltage fluoros and halogen lamps still win out in that application.
I also built several night lights that use so little power that they are left on 24/7. Each one draws about 15mA and there is one in the toilet, one in the kitchen and two at the front entrance and that makes it easy to get around at night when nature calls or when coming back home in the dark.


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jan 23, 2008)

Nosha said:


> Kate,  the battery display was showing 50% (what ever that means?) anyway everything was still working fine. We then went out for the day so the battery was charged up and we started all over again!!!.
> 
> providing you have a seperate engine battery then it doesn't matter if the battery does go flat does it?



I Have just noticed Nosha's post. 
Unless you have Gel Batteries you have basically taken a very considerable amount off the life of those batteries.
A "Starter" battery can be safely (just) taken to 80% of capacity
A "Leisure" (the normal type that we all seem to buy) down to approximately 70%
If you are looking to make usages like you appear to have done then be prepared to replace the batteries far sooner than might be expected. They are simply not designed for that type of use.


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## tresrikay (Jan 23, 2008)

Tony Lee said:


> "Each light will now draw about 1amp"
> 
> Possibly 1Watt which is around 1/10th of an amp rather than 1Amp???
> 
> ...


The new multi cluster l.e.ds now available give just as good a pool of light. I have both warm and white installed and as I changed them I compared light value and there is virtually no difference especially in brightness.


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## Nosha (Jan 23, 2008)

*LED's*

Tony is right, I've changed a 10w halogen for an LED cluster in each area of the m/h inc the outside light, and now the WHOLE LOT doesn't add up to an amp! The LED clusters are quoted at 0.1amp ea! So you can go out and leave the outside awning light on all night and make no real difference to the battery.

Our 15" LCD/DVD TV only draws the same as the little 10" TV we used to have i.e. 4watts, so unless you run loads of stuff; a long weekend even in winter should be no problem at all! - Try it!


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## kate13 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Led*



Nosha said:


> Tony is right, I've changed a 10w halogen for an LED cluster in each area of the m/h inc the outside light, and now the WHOLE LOT doesn't add up to an amp! The LED clusters are quoted at 0.1amp ea! So you can go out and leave the outside awning light on all night and make no real difference to the battery.
> 
> Our 15" LCD/DVD TV only draws the same as the little 10" TV we used to have i.e. 4watts, so unless you run loads of stuff; a long weekend even in winter should be no problem at all! - Try it!



Hi Nosha
Were did you purchase your LED Clusters from?
Regards Julie


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## Trevor (Jan 24, 2008)

Try this site Kate for LED lighting http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/


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## walkers (Jan 24, 2008)

Trevor said:


> Try this site Kate for LED lighting http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/


good link trevor looks like i can just swap the bulbs instead of fittings


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## Trevor (Jan 24, 2008)

walkers said:


> good link trevor looks like i can just swap the bulbs instead of fittings



Thats what i did for the 240 volts, then i also added some 12 volt works for me Walkers.


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## kate13 (Jan 24, 2008)

*Led*



Trevor said:


> Try this site Kate for LED lighting http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/



Thanks Trevor,
Do you know if the Hymer bulbs are all 12v, Seems daft to ask, but manual is at my Moms, I know there are for spots over the seating area at back. Also as I am new to m/h, which do you suggest I buy?
Regards Julie


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## lenny (Jan 24, 2008)

walkers said:


> good link trevor looks like i can just swap the bulbs instead of fittings



Agreed,good link, Added to favourites


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## Trevor (Jan 24, 2008)

kate13 said:


> Thanks Trevor,
> Do you know if the Hymer bulbs are all 12v, Seems daft to ask, but manual is at my Moms, I know there are for spots over the seating area at back. Also as I am new to m/h, which do you suggest I buy?
> Regards Julie



Not sure Kate but sure someone else will answer that one.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 25, 2008)

kate13 said:


> Thanks Trevor,
> Also as I am new to m/h, which do you suggest I buy?
> Regards Julie




While not a great fan of LEDs, they do have some advantages - very long life provided they are properly designed (and many are not designed to handle voltages up to nearly 15V that occurs when charging) and low power consumption.

When used as spot lights, especially in places over benches where they are mounted fairly close to the bench, you can end up with a bright spot of light about 6" in diameter and nothing elsewhere and the overall effect is pretty awful. If you are considering them, try to see them in operation in a motorhome and then buy exactly the same unit. Failing that, buy one rather than a lot and see how you like it.  It would be different if they were the same price as conventional bulbs, but they are way dearer.


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## walkers (Jan 25, 2008)

kate13 said:


> Thanks Trevor,
> Do you know if the Hymer bulbs are all 12v, Seems daft to ask, but manual is at my Moms, I know there are for spots over the seating area at back. Also as I am new to m/h, which do you suggest I buy?
> Regards Julie


unless they have been added afterward yes they are 12v, i have spotlights over the seating areas in my hymer and two larger flourescent units one in the kitchen and one above the rear seat group all 12v.
hope this helps you regards tony


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## tresrikay (Jan 25, 2008)

Tony Lee said:


> While not a great fan of LEDs, they do have some advantages - very long life provided they are properly designed (and many are not designed to handle voltages up to nearly 15V that occurs when charging) and low power consumption.
> 
> When used as spot lights, especially in places over benches where they are mounted fairly close to the bench, you can end up with a bright spot of light about 6" in diameter and nothing elsewhere and the overall effect is pretty awful. If you are considering them, try to see them in operation in a motorhome and then buy exactly the same unit. Failing that, buy one rather than a lot and see how you like it.  It would be different if they were the same price as conventional bulbs, but they are way dearer.



As I said before in answer to your last thread, these things have leaped forward incredibly in just a few months and you really can't tell the difference from halogen, apart from the drain and the dangerous heat from halogens. They are in my van and they are great.


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## Trevor (Jan 25, 2008)

tresrikay said:


> As I said before in answer to your last thread, these things have leaped forward incredibly in just a few months and you really can't tell the difference from halogen, apart from the drain and the dangerous heat from halogens. They are in my van and they are great.



I for one agree with you they are great and they have hell of long life because they dont give off heat, they a bit expsensive probably work out
cheaper in the long run.


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## tresrikay (Jan 25, 2008)

Trevor said:


> I for one agree with you they are great and they have hell of long life because they dont give off heat, they a bit expsensive probably work out
> cheaper in the long run.



Not if we get together and buy up my sources stock........look in for sale and wanted.


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## Trevor (Jan 25, 2008)

tresrikay said:


> Not if we get together and buy up my sources stock........look in for sale and wanted.



Will do thanks much


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jan 26, 2008)

Try http://www.virtualvillage.com/ Plenty of LEDs in there and extremely cheap. First class service as well


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## kate13 (Jan 27, 2008)

*I am a Novice*



baloothebear said:


> You will need more than 2x 110A of batteries. You will need in excess of 80w of solar panel. If you must have a Genny (and you want to wild it) then you will need a Kipor or a Honda silent type Genny. You don't want to advertise your presence, do you?
> Now if you are prepared for that level of expediture then you're in with a chance: Please don't get the idea that it can be done on the cheap because you are talking about expensive items.



Hi baloothebear
As a novice, and has its our first m/h. I joined Motorhomefacts to get help of people with many many years experience. Also to read, and gain knowledge.
With regards to doing anything on the cheap, my philosophy, you get what you pay for? Apart from that, why pay thousands of pounds in the first place for your m/h.If I seen an item I needed, but could get it at a better price, I don’t think that’s doing it on the cheap.
Having not spent one night in the hymer yet, I was just getting information ready. It as a BP255 Solar, one new 100amp leisure battery+ starting battery. Two socket inverter. LPG tank fitted for Cooking and heating.
Being a novice, this does not mean a lot to me at this point in time. I just wondered how it would manage say for a weekend, without hook-up?
Kind Regards
                       Julie


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

*One step at a time.*

Hi Julie.
A couple of weeks ago 7 of us went to the Cromford Meet and no hook ups  and no problems and we did not move.
In the summer you will be able to go for a longer period.
Just try it, one night at a time if you are worried.
Go to a camp site and don't book a hook up for the first night but you could book one for the second.
Or go wild and move a little to charge the batteries.
Just go one step at a time until you get your confidence in your Hymer
By easter I would expect you to go for 3 to 4 nights without hook up.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 27, 2008)

kate13 said:


> Hi baloothebear
> As a novice, and has its our first m/h. I joined Motorhomefacts to get help of people with many many years experience. Also to read, and gain knowledge.
> With regards to doing anything on the cheap, my philosophy, you get what you pay for? Apart from that, why pay thousands of pounds in the first place for your m/h.If I seen an item I needed, but could get it at a better price, I don’t think that’s doing it on the cheap.
> Having not spent one night in the hymer yet, I was just getting information ready. It as a BP255 Solar, one new 100amp leisure battery+ starting battery. Two socket inverter. LPG tank fitted for Cooking and heating.
> ...



Kate (Julie?).

You'll be fine   Just go and do it.   And when you get back you'll wonder what you worried about.   You're obviously sensible because you're asking the right questions.   You'll be sensible enough not to overload everything with microwave oven, freezer, automatic washing machine.   You'll just be using what most of use.   Two or three hours of TV maybe, ordinary use of other electrical stuff.   Eventually, and before very long at that, you'll know how long things last.   Knowing how long your electricity will last is no more difficult really than knowing how long your fresh water will last, or when you have to dump the waste or empty the loo.   Or how much bread you need for the weekend.   It's all the same really.   It just seems more difficult now.

You'll be fine.   Just go and do it.   And then come back and tell us how it was.  I, for one would love to hear.

Tom


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## lenny (Jan 27, 2008)

maureenandtom said:


> Kate (Julie?).
> 
> You'll be fine   Just go and do it.   And when you get back you'll wonder what you worried about.   You're obviously sensible because you're asking the right questions.   You'll be sensible enough not to overload everything with microwave oven, freezer, automatic washing machine.   You'll just be using what most of use.   Two or three hours of TV maybe, ordinary use of other electrical stuff.   Eventually, and before very long at that, you'll know how long things last.   Knowing how long your electricity will last is no more difficult really than knowing how long your fresh water will last, or when you have to dump the waste or empty the loo.   Or how much bread you need for the weekend.   It's all the same really.   It just seems more difficult now.
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly Tom,only I'm not as good as you in putting it into words, Take this good advice Julie and go out and enjoy your new motorhome, you may make the odd mistake but you'll learn from them.
Good luck.


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## avandriver (Jan 27, 2008)

If you dont mind your neighbours thinking you have gone mad why not try spending the next few days in your camper at home ( you could allways cheat and sleep in the house ) 
 using the radio or tv and your lights will give you some idea of how long they will last 


Steve


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