# LPG Autogas adaptor



## petechinnock (Jan 17, 2015)

Anyone have any knowledge of these

LPG -Autogas-ADAPTOR Bayonet , VALVE INSIDE, for refill Camper Gas Bottle in UK | eBay

Seem almost too good?


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2015)

Yes they are great. I have one and save £15 every time I fill up on a 6kg bottle. That saves me about £180 a year. I've had one for three years, saved over £500. 

If you know what you are doing, they are perfectly safe to use. But there will be a few armchair experts on here who will tell you they are no good, and trot out a few man in the pub or friend of a friend stories. Your choice entirely who to believe


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## northernspirit2001 (Jan 17, 2015)

I've used one for 3 years, might not be same manufacturer, but as long as you don't overfill there's no safety issue at all. I once mis-remembered the amount of litres I could fill my empty bottle with and all it did was the pump slowed and stopped.....just the same as my lpg fuel tank (my m/home is lpg /petrol dual fuel). In other words the lpg tank for the engine stops filling when the pump can't squeeze any more in....so what's the difference with cooking gas cylinder? I did however make sure i used some off the freshly overfilled cylinder and swapped back to the part used later!


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## wineciccio (Jan 17, 2015)

Its a brilliant piece of kit, but i'm afraid you would have to be very very careful filling abroad with that kind of system, most garages will turn you away as soon as they spot the bottle, especially in Italy, in France if quick enough no problem as i have witnessed that myself, regardless of what has been said by the first post.


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2015)

The secret is to have a bottle filling cradle which hides the bottle, inside the back doors of your van. Then, how are they going to "spot the bottle".

If you fill the bottle on the forecourt in open view, then yes, you will probably get pulled.

Be discreet and fill to 80% capacity or less. (12l or less for a 6kg bottle from empty)


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## Winker (Jan 18, 2015)

They're getting expensive now,  but grab one quickly because they're also getting rarer!


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## Tony Lee (Jan 18, 2015)

> I once mis-remembered the amount of litres I could fill my empty bottle with and all it did was the pump slowed and stopped.....just the same as my lpg fuel tank (my m/home is lpg /petrol dual fuel). In other words the lpg tank for the engine stops filling when the pump can't squeeze any more in....so what's the difference with cooking gas cylinder?



And this is where the danger lies - people thinking they know what it is all about.  If your portable bottle does happen to have an 80% overfill protection valve like your fixed tank should have, then yes, they are the same, and it is the OPV that is shutting off the flow while there is still 20% headspace to allow for expansion. 

But what if it doesn't have that valve and the reason the pump stops is because the bottle is hydraulically full of liquid propane.

What happens then? Hot day, tank totally full of an incompressible liquid. Hmmmmm!!!

And of course then we have the "oh, just fill the bottle inside the vehicle" advocates. Doh! Double DOH!!


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## jagmanx (Jan 18, 2015)

*Low cost = DANGER UXB !*

I agree

I believe the bottles that go with a gasit or gaslow system are significantly stronger than Calor.
After all calor KNOW they only fill the bottles to a safe capacity and pressure they know is safe.

Gaslow and Gasit similarly only fill to 80% and so are safe.

Save a few pennies and ""die"
We all see the great consternation when there is a fire near a calor gas storage.

Propane  / LPG
LPG it is in the name PERTROLEUM.

Petrol as used in Petrol Bombs or Molotov Cocktails.

You may not only kill yourself and family but also "innocent bystanders"

DANGER UXB !


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## northernspirit2001 (Jan 18, 2015)

1. Yes I know i was DUMB to overfill, never did it again
2. Sure there isn't a magic valve on my engine/lpg tank that prevents overfilling, it would blow off on overfilling at the petrol forecourt (btw I can get about 10% extra in my fuel tank after the pump slows to a dribble)
3. I've never heard of any accidents....interested to know if there have been and how much of this is Calor originated conjecture?


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## Deleted member 967 (Jan 18, 2015)

UKLPG the body that advises garages etc. about LPG .   Thid body state that bottles should not be allowed to be filled from Autogas Pumps.   The bottles are not your property but hired from the company ie. Calor, Flogas etc.  Staff in filling stations don't know the difference and will refuse to allow Gaslow bottles that are in fact tanks from being filled.  

Abuse has led to many garages now refusing to supply Motorhomes/Campervans at all with Autogas LPG.   Although the UKLPG say filling tanks is OK they err on the side of caution.
Morrisons issued a statement last year banning Motorhomes/Campervans from obtaining Autogas LPG on their forecourts.  Rontec has done the same on some Forecourts.

Morrisons ban came about because of a fire when someone was filling a bottle in a campervan.  Rontec was simple misinterpretation of the guidance from UKLPG.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 18, 2015)

wineciccio said:


> Its a brilliant piece of kit, but i'm afraid you would have to be very very careful filling abroad with that kind of system, most garages will turn you away as soon as they spot the bottle, especially in Italy, in France if quick enough no problem as i have witnessed that myself, regardless of what has been said by the first post.





I`ve seen them turned away, once from my local Calor Centre in Penwortham and once from Morrisons in Leyland.


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## jagmanx (Jan 18, 2015)

*John Tanks v Bottles*



John Thompson said:


> UKLPG the body that advises garages etc. about LPG .   Thid body state that bottles should not be allowed to be filled from Autogas Pumps.   The bottles are not your property but hired from the company ie. Calor, Flogas etc.  Staff in filling stations don't know the difference and will refuse to allow Gaslow bottles that are in fact tanks from being filled.
> 
> Abuse has led to many garages now refusing to supply Motorhomes/Campervans at all with Autogas LPG.   Although the UKLPG say filling tanks is OK they err on the side of caution.
> Morrisons issued a statement last year banning Motorhomes/Campervans from obtaining Autogas LPG on their forecourts.  Rontec has done the same on some Forecourts.



I assume you are talking about calor or the like.

My Gasit LPG tanks are above the necessary strength (ie very similar to LPG gas tanks to fuel the engine)
They have a dedicated system to fill just as "LPG cars" have)
As you say though many staff cannot differentiate between tanks and bottles and so are understandably overcautious.an your organisation help ?

I have had one such refusal (in Belgium).
My solution is not to do Diesel and LPG at the same garage.
As I have to open a locker to use the LPG filling socket I also try to stop where the staff cannot tell that it is for domestic gas !


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## jagmanx (Jan 18, 2015)

*No Accidents*



northernspirit2001 said:


> 1. Yes I know i was DUMB to overfill, never did it again
> 2. Sure there isn't a magic valve on my engine/lpg tank that prevents overfilling, it would blow off on overfilling at the petrol forecourt (btw I can get about 10% extra in my fuel tank after the pump slows to a dribble)
> 3. I've never heard of any accidents....interested to know if there have been and how much of this is Calor originated conjecture?



Maybe because anybody unfortunate enough to have a problem was to worried by the potential repercussions !


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 18, 2015)

Wooie1958 said:


> I`ve seen them turned away, once from my local Calor Centre in Penwortham and once from Morrisons in Leyland.





jagmanx said:


> I assume you are talking about calor or the like.
> 
> *As I have to open a locker to use the LPG filling socket* I also try to stop where the staff cannot tell that it is for domestic gas !





I have to do the same to fill my in locker fill Gas-It system.

Both the places i quote above are happy with me filling there after they both had a look at my set up and saw it was not an " On Bottle " adapter.


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## jagmanx (Jan 18, 2015)

*GASIT OK The diffences are*

1 A Gasit system has fixed botteles
2 Also a proper connection
3 ONLY fill to 80%

This link explains what garages should know
http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-problems/22988-autogas-bombshell-2-print.html


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## runnach (Jan 18, 2015)

Through part of my work, I am part of a touring forum with a few motorhomes on it a lot of the members new to the pastime.

Both there and here on occasions I read posts re Gas where it is obvious the OP is frankly clueless. There is no shame in that in the context we all have to learn.

So a newbie decides to save a few quid and have a dabble filling their own bottles...disaster in the making , little knowledge is dangerous and all that ?

Im not one for regulation in the main , but some things do need control.

Calor bottles incidentally are tested under the relevant legislation to pressures way in excess of what they are expected to do in service.

Channa


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## jonkil (Jan 18, 2015)

Been refilling bottles for years, excellent device.
As with most things of this nature, to be used by people with common sense and knowledge of how to use it.


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## hextal (Jan 18, 2015)

jonkil said:


> As with most things of this nature, to be used by people with common sense and knowledge of how to use it.



Therein lies the problem, pretty much everyone thinks they have common sense. Unfortunately our lives our peppered with reminders that many don't.....

This coffee product is hot
This bag of nuts may contain nuts
Don't use this electric hairdryer in the shower
This sharp pointy thing is both sharp and pointy.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 18, 2015)

Ah ...... common sense  ........ a rare commodity these days, with some being completely void of it    :lol-049:


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## portiapug (Jan 18, 2015)

Next time you are in a Shell garage, look at the big notice that says 'gas BOTTLES are not allowed to be filled'.

Shell do not differentiate between types of bottles, refillable or not. The Manager might turn a blind eye (I have refilled my Alugas bottles in Shell service stations) but rules is rules.


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## molly 2 (Jan 18, 2015)

Don't want comment about right and wrongs dos or don't. Personaly would try to stay on the right side of the law. Gas is so dangerous.


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## Glenn2926 (Jan 18, 2015)

*Hi*

I do not yet have a motorhome (this will change in the next few months) but I keep reading on here about gaslow/gasit systems. I think this is the way I will be going. From reading various sites I am under the impression that the systems I have mentioned have external filling points therefore negating the problems mentioned above. Is this correct or am I completely as usual wrong? 

Thanks in advance Glenn.


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## shortcircuit (Jan 18, 2015)

With reference to the he OP question this is an excellent adapter and now fitted with a safety non return valve which I do not think earlier versions had. Its also down in price.
With reference to use it is no different to filling a Gaslow system although you MUST ensure cylinder is empty and you only fill the amount required, or less. Its quite easy to follow a slow moving gauge on the pump and stop when the correct amount is achieved rarther than relying on a 80% stop valve which I understand have been known to fail.
Use with caution.


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## QFour (Jan 18, 2015)

jonkil said:


> Been refilling bottles for years, excellent device.
> As with most things of this nature, to be used by people with common sense and knowledge of how to use it.



And there lies the problem .. Idiots who don't know what they are doing who are happy to squeeze a few extra litres in to save having to go again :scared:


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## Fazerloz (Jan 18, 2015)

Top and bottom of it is its people using these things that's causing companies to refuse the filling of legitimate systems. As usual if some can get away with it then bugger everybody else.


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## Fazerloz (Jan 18, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> With reference to the he OP question this is an excellent adapter and now fitted with a safety non return valve which I do not think earlier versions had. Its also down in price.
> With reference to use it is no different to filling a Gaslow system although you MUST ensure cylinder is empty and you only fill the amount required, or less. Its quite easy to follow a slow moving gauge on the pump and stop when the correct amount is achieved rarther than relying on a 80% stop valve which I understand have been known to fail.
> Use with caution.



So yes it is different to filling a Gaslow system.


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## shortcircuit (Jan 18, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> So yes it is different to filling a Gaslow system.



I obviously did not make it clear that the filling procedure is virtually the same.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 18, 2015)

User1 said:


> And there lies the problem .. Idiots who don't know what they are doing who are happy to squeeze a few extra litres in to save having to go again :scared:





Not long after i fitted my system i was on a site and the guy on the next pitch came over to have a look at the fitting.

He said he didn`t know that you could get a bracket to fit in the locker and it was just what he wanted as he didn`t want any holes cut in the body.

Whilst he was having a good look and i was writing down Gas It`s details another fella stopped to see what we was up to.

When i mentioned about the bottles have a 80% shutoff valve so as they didn`t overfill he just cracked out laughing  :lol-049:

He said he`d never heard of anything as stupid as that before and it was just a marketing ploy so they could charge more for the system :mad1:

He then said it was impossible to overfill them as once they were full they wouldn`t take anymore gas ... simples ... and walked off still laughing.

I actually think he was serious  :scared:


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## Fazerloz (Jan 18, 2015)

It shows that people get it wrong just by the fact the manufacturer of these devices has had to add a nrv because people could not be trusted to turn off the gas bottle before disconnecting from the pump. Likewise people get it wrong and overfill bottles.


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## Tbear (Jan 18, 2015)

We really need to find some new subjects to argue about. This one is no fun at all without Vwalan involved. 

Richard


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## shortcircuit (Jan 18, 2015)

The Spanish adapter I purchased for my Gaslow  system has a non return valve??????


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## rommel (Jan 18, 2015)

*LPG adaptor*

If you multiply your bottle kg, i.e.   6kg 11kg or 13kg  x2 . This is the max amount that should be filled ,so if you make sure the bottle is empty you should be ok, if you don't you could end up with liquid lpg travelling through your supply pipe or if it is not connected to the supply you will get a leak past the safety valve ( the little red plastic plug that melts in the event of a fire or over heating) if the bottle warms up from the sun etc. You could try weighing the cylinder to calculate the amount of residual gas is contained if you don't want to waste it or vent it off before filling. "Lets be careful out there " as Sgt Phil Estherhaus used to say.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 18, 2015)

This is what the OPD looks like - same as a float valve in a cistern







US portable bottles have one fitted as do the fixed tanks in motorhomes. I believe the Gasit and other refillable "bottles" in the UK also have them as do any fixed tank, but I doubt whether normal refillable or exchange bottles in UK, europe and certainly in Australia have them fitted. The US bottles and the Australian bottles also have a valve opened by hand that releases gas while filling and when liquid starts to come out, you know the 80% point has been reached.
It is why proper autogas setups can be refilled by the common man in most countries (but not in the USA - because the safety device prevents a dangerous condition from occurring and it is why refilling swap bottles by untrained people without the required equipment is illegal. At the very least you need a set of scales to monitor the filling progress and automatically stop the pump at the 80% point. Nothing to do with armchair experts, just to do with basic physics and the way equipment is designed.

What the owners of certified installed bottle systems should be up in arms about is the cowboys using adaptors to refill normal bottles illegally have already messed the system up enough that legitimate systems are being refused permission to fill at autogas bowsers.


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## iampatman (Jan 18, 2015)

I've heard that if you overfill your bottles and it stays warm overnight and then you park up on an aire you're asking for trouble because the Eastern Europeans/Moroccans/jihadists etc... wait till you're drowsy and then they rob you. I even heard of someone who had their satellite dish stolen!
Pat


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## shortcircuit (Jan 18, 2015)

Tony Lee said:


> This is what the OPD looks like - same as a float valve in a cistern
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I assume basic physics confirms that 1kg of LPG is equal to 2 litre so if you start with an empty cylinder  then why would you weigh?


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## antiqueman (Jan 18, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> I assume basic physics confirms that 1kg of LPG is equal to 2 litre so if you start with an empty cylinder  then why would you weigh?



I may be stupid but I do not want either of my bottles empty so keep them topped up, how do you know one is empty before filling or do you wait while you run out of gas? people have paid for refillable systems for convenience and to hopefully save money. Why should people using illegal gassing systems spoil it for others like 40 sheds parked on a beach for 3 months why sack the juggler? oh I am pithed will edit in morn.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 19, 2015)

I assume mine is working correctly  :dance:

The website says " Fills to approximatly 12.5 litres (at 80% full) "   GAS IT 6kg Refillable Gas bottle with Level / Contents gauge - GAS IT Leisure Gas - Catering, Motorhome, Caravan, Farrier and Road Repair Refillable Gas Solutions

The 3 fills i`ve done have all been from empty and i let the pump cut off, they were 12.56, 12.54 and 12.58 respectively


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## jonkil (Jan 19, 2015)

iampatman said:


> I've heard that if you overfill your bottles and it stays warm overnight and then you park up on an aire you're asking for trouble because the Eastern Europeans/Moroccans/jihadists etc... wait till you're drowsy and then they rob you. I even heard of someone who had their satellite dish stolen!
> Pat



Bloody hell,
That's me finished filling with those dangerous contraptions, thanks for the head up!!! LOL


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## jonkil (Jan 19, 2015)

Wooie1958 said:


> Ah ...... common sense  ........ a rare commodity these days, with some being completely void of it    :lol-049:



Indeed, thats the problem with "common sense" ......... It's not so common anymore.


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## runnach (Jan 19, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> I assume basic physics confirms that 1kg of LPG is equal to 2 litre so if you start with an empty cylinder  then why would you weigh?



For the purposes of absolute correctness Tony is right.

LPG is a byproduct of oil, it isn't uncommon for the gas to revert back to the state of oil when this happens the bottle is said to have "heavy ends" sometimes called "dirty gas"
Therefore the overall capacity in terms of volume of the bottle has been reduced.

Technically, take the net weight of the bottle (minus the regulator) stamped on the side and weigh it..should the weight be greater than stamped from the bottle ...then actual weight  less net weight gives us an idea of content, this then should be factored into whatever the 80 percent figure is and adjusted accordingly.

This is standard practice in Air con !! so no reason it wont work with LPG to keep within the 80 percent figure.

You did ask !!! :cool1::cool1:

Channa


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

Interesting.  So the gas dispensed from the nozzel at the pump is?  I also assume the empty weight would be the same as the stamped figure as I understand it only empty cylinders should be filled as the contents are then known?


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## portiapug (Jan 20, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> Interesting.  So the gas dispensed from the nozzel at the pump is?  I also assume the empty weight would be the same as the stamped figure as I understand it only empty cylinders should be filled as the contents are then known?



What channa is saying is that with no gas left in the bottle, it may be heavier than the stamped figure due to an accumulation of 'heavy ends'.


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## Debs (Jan 20, 2015)

There are skilled hands that can do this fill up method, and unskilled hands that are a total menace. It is illegal as these bottles are owned by the relevant company's, and only they know by their own markings when they are due for re-testing. I have a Gas-It system and paperwork which tells me when these tanks have to be returned to Gas-It. Personally I would rather have a gas free van, but I can't afford to. Time to put a fiver on the lottery methinks:danger:


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

portiapug said:


> What channa is saying is that with no gas left in the bottle, it may be heavier than the stamped figure due to an accumulation of 'heavy ends'.



Surely as the peep goes out then the cylinder is empty? Removing cylinder and just opening the valve slightly will indicate if any gas left and then it can be refilled by litres rather than weight?


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## Obanboy666 (Jan 20, 2015)

I have followed this thread with great interest over the last few days and it's scary the different methods, opinions etc people have regarding this illegal practice. 
Scary to say the least that people will break the law to save a few quid on gas. Get a proper system that is safe and legal. I spent a small fortune on my new motorhome and budgeted in the extra £400.00 spent on a refillable system that should pay for itself in a few years.

Better save than sorry is my motto with gas.


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

I can accept your view and unless you understand the procedures then it will appear scary. The physical process is the same the only difference is you have to ensure the cylinder is empty and you follow a slow moving gauge on the pump to switch off when the required amount is reached rather than rely on the 80% cut off valve.
The illegal part is filling a rented cylinder.


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## Obanboy666 (Jan 20, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> I can accept your view and unless you understand the procedures then it will appear scary. The physical process is the same the only difference is you have to ensure the cylinder is empty and you follow a slow moving gauge on the pump to switch off when the required amount is reached rather than rely on the 80% cut off valve.



Yes I appreciate the process is the same. I always run of one bottle and when the cooker or heating goes off I know the bottle is empty, but I was under the impression it was illegal unless I'm mistaken ?


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## portiapug (Jan 20, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> Surely as the peep goes out then the cylinder is empty? Removing cylinder and just opening the valve slightly will indicate if any gas left and then it can be refilled by litres rather than weight?



Go back and read channas thread again, especially this part.

LPG is a byproduct of oil, it isn't uncommon for the gas to revert back to the state of oil when this happens the bottle is said to have "heavy ends" sometimes called "dirty gas"
 Therefore the overall capacity in terms of volume of the bottle has been reduced.

Not only is the bottle heavier when empty but it contains oil not gas, which can build up and take up space. This would mean that you are putting too much LPG in if you think it is empty when it is not.


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## Firefox (Jan 20, 2015)

I have two bottles. I run one to empty and then switch in the full one while I refill the empty one ready.

My system is actually safer than Gaslow/Gasit, the reason being I am aware of the expansion space required. I only ever fill to 11.5 to 12 litres on a 6kg bottle and check the weight filled on scales. So my tank will always be correct after the check. I have never had to let out any gas yet after a potential overfill. The scales always tally because the pumps are well calibrated - they have to be as are subject to weights/measures legislation.

Some people with a Gaslow/Gasit system may blindly rely on the cut off valve and simply brim fill the tank with no regard to volume or weight filled. If the cut off valve is faulty, (and it has been known) they will end up with an overfilled tank and may not be aware of it.  

The overall safety of this type of system thus can be more dependant on user practice than it is on the type of system.


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

IE=portiapug;494266]Go back and read channas thread again, especially this part.

LPG is a byproduct of oil, it isn't uncommon for the gas to revert back to the state of oil when this happens the bottle is said to have "heavy ends" sometimes called "dirty gas"
 Therefore the overall capacity in terms of volume of the bottle has been reduced.

Not only is the bottle heavier when empty but it contains oil not gas, which can build up and take up space. This would mean that you are putting too much LPG in if you think it is empty when it is not.[/QUOTE]

I assume if you inverted an "empty" cylinder and opened the valve then the heavies would flow out?  Is this what caused the damage to regulators?


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## portiapug (Jan 20, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> IE=portiapug;494266]Go back and read channas thread again, especially this part.
> 
> LPG is a byproduct of oil, it isn't uncommon for the gas to revert back to the state of oil when this happens the bottle is said to have "heavy ends" sometimes called "dirty gas"
> Therefore the overall capacity in terms of volume of the bottle has been reduced.
> ...



I assume if you inverted an "empty" cylinder and opened the valve then the heavies would flow out?  Is this what caused the damage to regulators?[/QUOTE]

I have no idea but channa will. I use a refillable with an Energas bottle as a backup. I have never filled my own as I can get the Energas bottles for very little more than the cost of a refill at a Service Station.


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## Firefox (Jan 20, 2015)

The weight of a Calor Lite empty is 4.5 kg. So I can check if I have any build up of liquid or oil.

I am looking for a weight of about 10.5kg when filled (with 6kg/12l of gas), so my system of weighing guards not only against build up of oil but also  checks the calibration at the delivery pump is correct.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jan 20, 2015)

Obanboy666 said:


> Yes I appreciate the process is the same. I always run of one bottle and when the cooker or heating goes off I know the bottle is empty, but I was under the impression it was illegal unless I'm mistaken ?



This is part of the legally binding agreement with Calor when the cylinders are first supplied.

*"Cylinders remain the property of the company at all times and may only be filled by the company*

The company makes the cylinder(s) available to the user as a means of safely transporting and storing the gas supplied. This agreement is not a rental agreement and it does not provide the user with title in the cylinder. The user will not part with possession or control of the cylinder(s) (other than to a CALOR outlet) nor claim to have any rights that conflict with this agreement, nor create or purport or attempt to create any agency or bailment in relation to the cylinder(s) or to the user’s obligations.

Use of cylinder

Cylinders may be used only as a container for gas and may not be sold, exchanged (other than for the purpose of this agreement), hired, assigned, transferred, mortgaged, lent,* abandoned, nor damaged, defaced, decanted, filled or tampered with*.

Termination of the refill by the user

*This agreement remains in force for 50 years.* The user may terminate this agreement by returning the cylinder(s) in good order to a CALOR outlet nominated for this purpose and shall be entitled on presenting this agreement to a refund of a proportion of the Refill Agreement Charge as follows:-

1 year old = 70% refund

2 years old = 60% refund

3 years old = 50% refund

4 years old = 45% refund

5 years old = 40% refund

6 years old = 35% refund

7 years old = 30% refund

Over 7 years = 25% refund

Other

This agreement is governed by and construed in accordance with English law.


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## Winker (Jan 20, 2015)

I "rented" my one in Scotland.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 20, 2015)

Of the 3 re-fills i have done i did not do any of them blindly as i was watching the pump as it filled.

The highest fill was 12.58 which is pretty darned close to the ( approx 12.50 litres @ 80% full ) that Gas It claim.

I was ready to stop the pump but it cut itself off and had it gone on to say 12.80 i would have stopped it.


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> This is part of the legally binding agreement with Calor when the cylinders are first supplied.
> 
> *"Cylinders remain the property of the company at all times and may only be filled by the company*
> 
> ...



Very informative John.  This is an agreement with the supplier however there must be more to it to make it illegal and a criminal offence.  If I can recall, and I am being flipant, that it was "illegal" to record radio programmes.
Has anybody been charged and on the same theme anybody received a refund for the bottle?
Interesting article in CCC magazine this month on this subject


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## Obanboy666 (Jan 20, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> This is part of the legally binding agreement with Calor when the cylinders are first supplied.
> 
> *"Cylinders remain the property of the company at all times and may only be filled by the company*
> 
> ...



Yes, illegal. And that's without the safety issues and litigation that could arise if things went wrong when filling. I don't knowingly do illegal hence have refillables.
I returned my bottles when I had my refillable system installed.


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## Firefox (Jan 20, 2015)

It's not criminal law, it's civil law, it's a contract for supply.

However if you buy a cylinder from ebay, for example, or get given one second hand, there is no contract.

The contract breach is with the original user for abandoning or transferring the cylinder.

Since I did not obtain my cylinders from Calor, I have no contract with them. Therefore not illegal.


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## Obanboy666 (Jan 20, 2015)

Firefox said:


> It's not criminal law, it's civil law, it's a contract for supply.
> 
> However if you buy a cylinder from ebay, for example, or get given one second hand, there is no contract.
> 
> ...



Very debatable, I was under the impression the cylinder remained the property of Calor and not the user ? I also doubt whether any of the major petrol companies will view it favourably if you have an incident when filling your cylinder on a forecourt especially when they forbid you doing it. I have actually seen a notice at my local Garage stipulating that they forbid refilling of said bottles.
But each to their own, I'd rather have a 'proper' system and not play around with a potential bomb to save a few quid.


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## jagmanx (Jan 20, 2015)

*The Selfish People*

Who refill calor bottles are likely to cause garages to stop the legitimate Gasit or Gaslow users getting their safe  bottles safely refilled !

We all decry Wild campers who spoil it for others (Staying too long, causing a nuisance etc...)

Those re-filling illegally are spoiling it for the legit users.

Please think carefully !!!


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## runnach (Jan 20, 2015)

portiapug said:


> I assume if you inverted an "empty" cylinder and opened the valve then the heavies would flow out?  Is this what caused the damage to regulators?



I have no idea but channa will. I use a refillable with an Energas bottle as a backup. I have never filled my own as I can get the Energas bottles for very little more than the cost of a refill at a Service Station.[/QUOTE] Heavy ends have a consistency similar to treacle doesn't pour that easy,  Those that have ever changed a pigtail may see a yellow sludge like substance that is oil. That is what resides at the bottom of the bottle , and has Firefox and myself have suggested weighing  establishes the volume available. The reasons for "heavy ends" are numerous.

The bottles are filled under pressure ( liquid form) should the master tank be close to empty bits of  the dirty stuff and debris are transmitted to the receiving bottle ( Think of the crap in the bottom of a car fuel tank)

Propane especially abroad is a propane / butane mix in essence a blend with different chemical formula,  the gasses seperate in the bottle leaving a residue that turns back to its unrefined state (again think why we turn fridges upside down to re agitate refrigerants).

Channa


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## lebesset (Jan 20, 2015)

lpg sold everwhere in europe including the UK is propane [ I was once told that the belgians mixed in some butane but my brother who has lived there for 30 years tells me it hasn't been true in his time ]
there are different grades of purity of propane , the one sold here as lpg is what the americans called HD5 , it is basically 90% propane , the other 10% is a mixture of other gases , methane /toluene/ polypropylene etc [ and a smell agent as propane is odourless ] etc which need a higher temperature to be gaseous the 10% varies according to the oil it is refined from , but the 90% must be propane 

just follow a gas tanker on his rounds and talk to the driver ; he will tell you he will fill your domestic propane tank or the lpg tank at the garage from the same load , and that it comes from the same propane tank used to fill bottles at the refilling station 

there is no need for absolutely pure propane for these purposes , and we certainly wouldn't want to pay the price 

when I used to run lpg vehicles I learned to let the tank run empty regularly so that the heavy ends didn't accumulate , which is why I advise people to do the same with refillable bottles rather than top up


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## portiapug (Jan 20, 2015)

Obanboy666 said:


> Very debatable, I was under the impression the cylinder remained the property of Calor and not the user ? I also doubt whether any of the major petrol companies will view it favourably if you have an incident when filling your cylinder on a forecourt especially when they forbid you doing it. I have actually seen a notice at my local Garage stipulating that they forbid refilling of said bottles.
> But each to their own, I'd rather have a 'proper' system and not play around with a potential bomb to save a few quid.



Shell Service Stations are usually very strict on bottle filling.

I would imagine that is because "Autogas" is the trade name for a product that is a Joint venture between Shell and Calor. I also doubt that if you went to a Calor Depot, they would fill an ordinary bottle using an ebay adaptor.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 20, 2015)

portiapug said:


> Shell Service Stations are usually very strict on bottle filling.
> 
> I would imagine that is because "Autogas" is the trade name for a product that is a Joint venture between Shell and Calor. I also doubt that if you went to a Calor Depot, they would fill an ordinary bottle using an ebay adaptor.




My local Calor Depot refuses point blank to let anyone fill an ordinary bottle using the said adaptor and get quite a few trying it.

There is CCTV looking at the blind side of the vehicles as well so that doesn`t work either.

If they do not recognise the person at the pump they do not turn it on until they have been outside and looked at what they are filling.

They also every now and then pop out to the regulars just to check and have found a couple of them trying it on as well.

So long as the re-fillable bottles look right ( they know all the makes ), the pipework and fill point either in locker or external are correct then you are OK.


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## Fazerloz (Jan 20, 2015)

Firefox said:


> It's not criminal law, it's civil law, it's a contract for supply.
> 
> However if you buy a cylinder from ebay, for example, or get given one second hand, there is no contract.
> 
> ...



You have no contract, the cylinders are the property of Calor so I would think what you have would be classed as stolen goods.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 20, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> I assume basic physics confirms that 1kg of LPG is equal to 2 litre so if you start with an empty cylinder  then why would you weigh?



Are you filling with Propane or Butane or a mixture.

They have different densities.

Basic physics

Other basic physics - autogas for vehicle use is usually liquid take off from the tank so "heavy ends" can't accumulate. For domestic use, it is vapour takeoff which means that differential evaporation may result in Butane accumulating.

Propane used exclusivly for autogas all across Europe????  Things must have changed



> " then the cylinder is empty? Removing cylinder and just opening the valve slightly will indicate if any gas left and then it can be refilled by litres rather than weight?"



Again, no. I've had bottles that have had nearly a litre of liquid sloshing around in the bottom and it just won't evaporate. Only way to get it out is to turn the bottle (once it is empty of propane/butane) upside down and crack the valve so  it runs out.

Pretty obvious that basic physics mightn't be so basic after all and I suggest that the derided "armchair experts" may have won this argument - again.


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## Firefox (Jan 20, 2015)

I think you conveniently turned a blind eye to the basic physics of weighing, all as discussed above :lol-053:

In the UK we always fill with 100% propane... too cold for anything else, and my bottle always weighs 4.5kg empty so I know I am always filling from empty


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## shortcircuit (Jan 20, 2015)

Tony Lee said:


> Are you filling with Propane or Butane or a mixture.
> 
> They have different densities.
> 
> ...


I did ask if inverting a cylinder would allow the "heavies" to run out and you have answered that question.
No need to be rude in what has been a very informative subject as some of the "armchair experts" have had actual experience.


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## Fazerloz (Jan 20, 2015)

Sorry but I don't see where Tony was been rude. The first reference to armchair experts came from Firefox in post number 2.


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## runnach (Jan 20, 2015)

Tony Lee said:


> Are you filling with Propane or Butane or a mixture.
> 
> They have different densities.
> 
> ...



Thank you Tony, you have succinctly stated the points I was trying to make with my contributions in the thread. With possibly a far more transparent explanation.

Channa


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## oldpolicehouse (Jan 21, 2015)

This argument will run forever. People use these devices because they cannot afford a proper system or are too tight to shell out for one.
PS Refilled the other day at my local Morrisons.


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## Deleted member 38440 (Jan 21, 2015)

On a lighter note for Woolie. You mention filling at a Calor depot. I've tried finding filling stations that aren't at petrol stations. Calor tell me they don't have any. Do you have any listing of them.


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## Canalsman (Jan 21, 2015)

If you have an Android phone or tablet, I can recommend an app called Fill LPG - updates are downloaded daily and it lists independent LPG outlets as well as petrol stations.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 21, 2015)

grahammay2 said:


> On a lighter note for Woolie. You mention filling at a Calor depot. I've tried finding filling stations that aren't at petrol stations. Calor tell me they don't have any. Do you have any listing of them.




On an even lighter note, there`s no bleeding " l " in Wooie :wacko:

There isn`t a list of Autogas filling stations on the Calor website.

Think i`m just lucky having one at my local depot which i used for over 20 years for bottled gas and the pump seems to have always been there.

I have the App that POI Admin mentions and it`s very good, my local Calor depot is on it.


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## Firefox (Jan 21, 2015)

Countrywide for example. They do good coverage in Gloucester Bristol SW Midlands area.

Account based, direct debit. 24 hour access unmanned stations. Use card and key to fill as you like. No need to bother with Calor or Shell - plenty of other ways and means


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## sasquatch (Jan 21, 2015)

The latest edition of the Camping club magazine had an article on gas tanks and cylinders.


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## Tony Lee (Jan 21, 2015)

Just so you all know that this armchair expert who has got a lot of practical experience is not above "breaking the rules", this is my system that gets used in far off countries







The big difference is that it is done well away from other people and buildings and certainly not on the garage forecourt and doesn't involve high pressure high capacity pumps.

Part of every overlander's emergency kit for when the only gas supply is from local bottles and the local bottles won't fit in the gas locker and or have incompatible fittings.

The bottom bottle which is being filled does have an overfill protection device

Probably illegal even in these far-off countries, but either this way or try and live in freezing weather in a rig that has propane powered fridge, cooker, HWS, furnace and generator.
====================================================================================
I've seen table published on this and other forums that indicate that while Autogas in the UK and higher latitude countries is close to 100% propane, that isn't the case in warmer climes such as Spain. Is that still the case?


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## Firefox (Jan 22, 2015)

In general, the further south you go, the more butane they add to the mix as they have to cope with cold temps much less frequently as you get down to the Mediterranean. So France they add a bit. In Greece they add quite a lot

Here's the figures:

Country Propane Butane
Belgium 50 50
Denmark 50 50
France 35 65
Greece 20 80
Ireland 100 -
Italy 25 75
Netherlands 50 50
Spain 30 70
Sweden 95 5
United Kingdom 100 -
Germany 90 10

But in the UK, it's 100% propane, and I only fill in the UK, so I don't need to worry about doing the compensation calculation for volume/weight fill.


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## lebesset (Jan 22, 2015)

Firefox said:


> In general, the further south you go, the more butane they add to the mix as they have to cope with cold temps much less frequently as you get down to the Mediterranean. So France they add a bit. In Greece they add quite a lot
> 
> Here's the figures:
> 
> ...



don't know where you got these figures from but they are wrong


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## Firefox (Jan 22, 2015)

They are posted in quite a lot of places on the net. Feel free to add what you think are the right ones if you have other information. All the different references I have seen state that UK mix is 90-100% propane which is the key one for filling in the UK.


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