# heat



## kevin marks (Nov 9, 2010)

ive been looking at heating and hot water systems and it seems as though the ebarspracher system is a good bet anyone know the pros and cons


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## NicknClair (Nov 9, 2010)

*Dual Top Concept*

Take a look at the link below;
Webasto Caravan :: Home

Have removed Truma from the Swift, now have RHA102 Dual Top. No regrets as use the van all year round, so van hardly using Gas/12V plus the fact it can be used whilst driving. Sold the old Truma on that well known Internet Auction site, so recovered some of the costs in swapping it. They do have a great range of Heating only options too, but have always fitted Webasto, in the last self-build and now the Swift.

Rgs

Nick

P.S Article in July issue of MMM mag (available on Webasto's main website), welcome for demo if you are in Somerset area at any time


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## kenjones (Nov 9, 2010)

My van is fitted with an Eberspacher D2 heater which heats the vehicle via blown air and deisel from the main fuel tank. It is efficient and doesn't seem to use a lot of fuel.
Fairly quiet inside the van but quite noisy outside.
The truma water heater works well on gas or mains hook up.


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## kevin marks (Nov 9, 2010)

*hi*

how much did this system cost you


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## NicknClair (Nov 9, 2010)

kenjones said:


> My van is fitted with an Eberspacher D2 heater which heats the vehicle via blown air and deisel from the main fuel tank. It is efficient and doesn't seem to use a lot of fuel.
> Fairly quiet inside the van but quite noisy outside.
> The truma water heater works well on gas or mains hook up.


 
The reason for changing to Webasto was the amount of Gas I was using in the Winter (averaging 13kg every 7-10 days between end of Nov and Feb). Also picked on Dual Top, as noise levels are extremely low inside and out (unit is a specific RV/motorhome Heater unit), plus liked the Mains feature when van outside house on hook up. 
Fuel take off on the Fiat tank stops a 1/4, stopping us from running out of diesel but to be fair the use has not been noticable.
Looked at D2 couple of years ago when we were setting up our heater options but didn't like 12v useage as seems fairly high. Autocruise customer's of ours also had similar comments and were fitting more leisure batteries to compensate.


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## kevin marks (Nov 9, 2010)

so am i right in saying whilst wild camping its powered by diesel and at campsite its powered by mains electric not diesel


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## NicknClair (Nov 9, 2010)

kevin marks said:


> so am i right in saying whilst wild camping its powered by diesel and at campsite its powered by mains electric not diesel


 
That's correct, the source on the dual top can be done with the following combinations;

Diesel Only - No Mains Present
Diesel and 1KW electric (Low Campsite Supply i.e EU countries)
1-2kw Electric.


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## kevin marks (Nov 9, 2010)

great thanks what about price i suppose fitted would be in the £3000 margin


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## NicknClair (Nov 9, 2010)

kevin marks said:


> great thanks what about price i suppose fitted would be in the £3000 margin


 
Price of RHA102 is £2299.00 based in examination of vehicle. The diesel only model is £100.00 cheaper and doesn't have the digital control that the wife loves.


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## kevin marks (Nov 9, 2010)

ok thanks for the info approx £2500 doesnt sound too bad


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## Beemer (Nov 9, 2010)

Our 'van has the Eberspacher blown air heater and hot water heater with digital control fitted from purchase, so I do not know how much it cost to have fitted.  Our blown air and water heating can also be powered by 240v, but I do not recommend using 240v if you are being charged by the KWh from experience!!


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## Bernard Jones (Nov 10, 2010)

Eberspachers draw diesel through a very thin pipe.  The diesel can wax up and block the supply pipe at fairly low temperatures - just when you need it most.  My eberspacher  waxed up and stopped working although the diesel engine never did, so it wasn't that cold.  So I used to run mine on paraffin, (or paraffin diesel mix) from a separate tank.  It was heavy on battery power too - it takes a lot more battery power to pump and to light diesel than it does gas!  .But it was compact and powerful when it was working. The noise probably annoyed my neighbors more than me because I got used to it.
Eberspachers take up the minimum amount of space and are very popular with lorry drivers, not wanting the hassle of separate gas cylinders, driving long hours every day so battery power isn't a problem, and staying on noisy lorry parks so the noise isn't a problem either.


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## kevin marks (Nov 10, 2010)

hmmm ok so the ebarspracher  has a lot of cons so what about the webasto rha102 dualtop im trying to stay away from lpg as i only want this for cooking and fridge really oh and also to power the eg20 if i go down that road afgain its such a minefield and thankfully you boys and girls have the knowledge about whats best


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## NicknClair (Nov 10, 2010)

Well pleased with mine, low noise and power consumption. Low fuel consumption as recirculates the air in the cabin. Can be external fit, meaning it is space saving on some installations.
Only complaint I have is that the system will not fire up with voltage below 11.7, but is that really a fault?
Feedback from a customer going to Norway and Finland says that as the fuel take off and pipe are not effected on his, just feel that this issue will be down to the installer routing the pipe to give it the best weather protection (bearing in mind that he was at Finland in the Winter @ -30).

On demo today since starting up at 6:30am this morning, Battery Monitor has read a use of 8AH @ internal temp of 25deg C. This is by far warmer than what I would normally run it at (18 deg C). It is also worth pointing out that today happens to be fairly cold outside.
I did spend quite a considerable time researching the best solution to the Gas use problem and feel I have made the right choice as not changing the van for a fair while so feel the money invested was well worth it.


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## winchman (Nov 10, 2010)

kevin marks said:


> ok thanks for the info approx £2500 doesnt sound too bad


!!!!! In paid half of that for my Camper!
It dose sound good though.
I have had an Eberspacher in the pastand it was very good.


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## Dezi (Nov 11, 2010)

Hi, We had the eberspacher in the old Murvi for 10 years & have had the Webasto dual top in the new Murvi for nearly 2 years. In my opinion the Webasto is a far superior piece of kit. I am NOT saying that the Eberspacher is bad, it is not, but the Webasto is simply better all round. 

Dezi


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## Campervanman (Nov 11, 2010)

> ok thanks for the info approx £2500 doesnt sound too bad



Jeeze! Are we really talking Two Thousand, five hundred quid here or is the decimal point missing? (£25.00)


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

Campervanman said:


> Jeeze! Are we really talking Two Thousand, five hundred quid here or is the decimal point missing? (£25.00)


 
Campervanman.

For that you get
SunnGas Parabolic Heater - Cylinder

Richard


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## Deleted member 13859 (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi
I'm in the same boat, thinking of getting a diesel night heater but dont know which way to go, Eberspacher or Webasto Thermo Top C which I think I'm right in saying heat the vehicle water rather than blown air.

Again any advice would be very welcome.

tranivanman


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## Airecraft (Nov 14, 2010)

If you stay away from 230v sources don't go for the eberspacher coz it guzzles amps - 8 on startup then at least 2 while blowing. Apart from this it is a good system and is much cheaper than gas, even with refillables. Our Autocruise came with Eber fitted but if I was buying new I'd get a heater with a radiant option (are they still available??)to save the batteries.
Andy


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## Deleted member 13859 (Nov 14, 2010)

Hi 
thanks for your reply, I'm even more confused now

tranivanman


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## Tbear (Nov 14, 2010)

tranivanman said:


> Hi
> thanks for your reply, I'm even more confused now
> 
> tranivanman


 
This site might help 

Rainbow Conversions - for all your motorhome needs

Then go to heaters, at least you will know what they look like and cost then. The convection heater do not need electricity but will burn lots of LPG in winter


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## Bernard Jones (Nov 14, 2010)

nickjvanbitz said:


> Feedback from a customer going to Norway and Finland says that as the fuel take off and pipe are not effected on his, just feel that this issue will be down to the installer routing the pipe to give it the best weather protection (bearing in mind that he was at Finland in the Winter @ -30).



eberspacher drawing fuel at -30?  Must be running on petrol or similar.  Mine would stop drawing untreated diesel at about -2C.  The van has a pump submerged in the tank, pushing the diesel through a much wider pipe to another pump on the engine.  The eberspacher only has one pump and has to suck it all the way up from the tank through a very narrow pipe.

Never rely on one - always take warm clothing as well.


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## NicknClair (Nov 15, 2010)

Bernard Jones said:


> eberspacher drawing fuel at -30?  Must be running on petrol or similar.  Mine would stop drawing untreated diesel at about -2C.  The van has a pump submerged in the tank, pushing the diesel through a much wider pipe to another pump on the engine.  The eberspacher only has one pump and has to suck it all the way up from the tank through a very narrow pipe.
> 
> Never rely on one - always take warm clothing as well.


 
The vehicle in question was a new style Autotrail based on the X250 Fiat. The Fuel Take-off comes direct from the sender unit, with the pipe routed direct to the heater via a dosing pump mounted in series. The routing of the hose was done in a maner of the shortest but most protected run as possible. I cannot comment if the customer put any alternative additive to the diesel in his fuel tank, but did make the point of how cold it was where he visited. 
The other piece of feedback is from a customer whom had one of the first "Retro-Fit" Dual Tops installed, whom supervise a Ski School in the Alps (again Gas being the problem in terms of consumption). They were recording temps as low as -20 deg C.

Rgs

Nick


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## NicknClair (Nov 15, 2010)

tranivanman said:


> Hi
> I'm in the same boat, thinking of getting a diesel night heater but dont know which way to go, Eberspacher or Webasto Thermo Top C which I think I'm right in saying heat the vehicle water rather than blown air.
> 
> Again any advice would be very welcome.
> ...


 
Thermo C "Motorcaravan" is a coolant based system, which runs to a "Silencio" Air box. This "AirBox" is a mini radiator with 2 x fans that convert the heat to warm air via 3 x 60mm air outlets.
When doing my first "MAJOR" self-build, I used the Thermo C Motorcaravan with 2 x Silencios, but also ran the coolant system through a towel rail in the bathroom (similar to the one's you can buy in B&Q etc), as you can create a mix of Wet and Air on the Heating System. 
The one thing I really loved about Thermo C is how quick it would get to temp for Shower water (using the Heat Plat exchanger Model) and the fact that whilst showering, the water would very rarely drop temperature.


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## jann (Nov 15, 2010)

The eberspacher is very quick heat,uses little diesel( about 5 litres a week)

But it is heavy on the battery. We have two batteries so if the first one flattens can swop to the other one


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## Tony Lee (Nov 15, 2010)

> to a "Silencio" Air box.



Those would be the least-aptly named devices ever put on the market. Silent my eye.

I bought some truly silent computer fans and chucked the screamers in the bin.

I guess the originals would have been perfect for shutting out background noise when wilding in a busy carpark, but we prefer to listen to the birds.


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## NicknClair (Nov 16, 2010)

Tony Lee said:


> Those would be the least-aptly named devices ever put on the market. Silent my eye.
> 
> I bought some truly silent computer fans and chucked the screamers in the bin.
> 
> I guess the originals would have been perfect for shutting out background noise when wilding in a busy carpark, but we prefer to listen to the birds.


 
Hence the reason why Webasto have modifed the way in which the Silencio's are wired with a new variable Climate control system - released Sept 2010.
You are right that when the original set-up was made, there was no way to vary the fan speed properly (slow would take ages to heat the van/moderate noise, high speed and it was a tad noisey to say the least), which Webasto acknowledged and changed the way it used these fans work in relation to the required cabin temp. Now the fans speed is fully variable to A) quiet down the noise when up to temp and B) make the system to prevent Cold Spikes in the coolant system when the old style Thermostat control all of a sudden engage the Silencio's fans. This would prevent the main Thermo Unit from having to fire-up fully and burn at a lower setting - thus less fuel used. Plus the controller is very easy to use and simplifies things.


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## AndyC (Nov 16, 2010)

Tony Lee said:


> Those would be the least-aptly named devices ever put on the market. Silent my eye.
> 
> I bought some truly silent computer fans and chucked the screamers in the bin.
> 
> I guess the originals would have been perfect for shutting out background noise when wilding in a busy carpark, but we prefer to listen to the birds.


What fans did you use?

I have a Webasto Thermo 90 combined with Eberspacher heater matrix boxes, the original fans were unbearably noisy so I experimented with 'silent' 120mm computer fans. The really quiet ones I tried were not powerful enough to  provide enough air flow, I currently have a couple of Xilruilian (X-Fan) RDH1225S fans fitted which are much better but not as good as the originals. They do however work well with a Maplins 12V speed controller. I want to get another one but Xilruilian fans seem to be unavailable outside the Far East at the moment so I'm looking for other suggestions.

AndyC


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## NicknClair (Nov 16, 2010)

AndyC said:


> What fans did you use?
> 
> I have a Webasto Thermo 90 combined with Eberspacher heater matrix boxes, the original fans were unbearably noisy so I experimented with 'silent' 120mm computer fans. The really quiet ones I tried were not powerful enough to  provide enough air flow, I currently have a couple of Xilruilian (X-Fan) RDH1225S fans fitted which are much better but not as good as the originals. They do however work well with a Maplins 12V speed controller. I want to get another one but Xilruilian fans seem to be unavailable outside the Far East at the moment so I'm looking for other suggestions.
> 
> AndyC


 
I can look to see if the Climate control module kit can be sold seperate if you wish? PM if you want me to look further into this for you.
This kit allows the fan speed to be adjusted manually or Automaticly based on the kit's thermostat controller.


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## Tony Lee (Nov 16, 2010)

Sorry, don't have the details of the fans. They were quite expensive computer fans - off EBay - and don't put out anywhere near the air that the originals did, but our cabin volume is low so they do the job. If I still had the originals, they would have had a boot put through them within the first hour and then I would have had no heating. This way I still enjoy having some heat.

I was mostly amused that such a noisy device had such a misleading name - or does "Silencio" mean "SHUT UP!!!!!!!!" rather than "quiet"

Good that Webasto in Europe have recognised just how loud their original offerings were.


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## Deleted member 13859 (Nov 17, 2010)

hi guys
got me a Eberspacher D2 from a 2005 transit van, 7day timer, pump, exhaust pipe but not all the wiring!!!! anyone know where to get parts other than Turkey!!!!!!!! as thats whats on Fleabay all the time.

tranivanman


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## ancientmariner (Nov 17, 2010)

*alternative heating*

hi we have had the webasco deisel heating system fitted to our rapido. just the heater and not the full water heating.we did that because you have to have the whole of the truma boiler taken out plus the cost which is aroung three thousand pounds !!!
the model we had fitted is an air top 2ooo and have nothing but praise for this piece of kit.its economical and quite!! dont believe all you hear about the noise levels,its quiter than blown air heating.the company that fitted ours was towtal from fenton.hope this is of some help to you ancient mariner


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## Tony Lee (Nov 17, 2010)

> ,its quiter than blown air heating



and possibly puts out about a third of the heat.

My experience with both is that the truma puts out far more heat and air and the quality of the noise is better - a low air rush sound compared to the harsh whining turbine noise of the webasto.

Noise outside the van with a gas system is also less irritating to others than the webasto.


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## dolmen (Nov 21, 2010)

ancientmariner said:


> hi we have had the webasco deisel heating system fitted to our rapido. just the heater and not the full water heating.we did that because you have to have the whole of the truma boiler taken out plus the cost which is aroung three thousand pounds !!!
> the model we had fitted is an air top 2ooo and have nothing but praise for this piece of kit.its economical and quite!! dont believe all you hear about the noise levels,its quiter than blown air heating.the company that fitted ours was towtal from fenton.hope this is of some help to you ancient mariner


 
Can you give us the cost please? TIA


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## kangooroo (Nov 22, 2010)

*Fitting an Eberspacher or Webasto into a 'camping-car'...*

Has anyone ever fitted an Eberspacher or Webasto heater to a car?

I'm still toying with the idea of replacing my Roo with a car (Doblo or Berlingo) fitted with removable modular units for camping, but it would require a means of heating for winter-wilding use.  

Would this be a practical option or would the work required, including holes required for hoses etc, render the vehicle unsaleable?


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## NicknClair (Nov 22, 2010)

kangooroo said:


> Has anyone ever fitted an Eberspacher or Webasto heater to a car?
> 
> I'm still toying with the idea of replacing my Roo with a car (Doblo or Berlingo) fitted with removable modular units for camping, but it would require a means of heating for winter-wilding use.
> 
> Would this be a practical option or would the work required, including holes required for hoses etc, render the vehicle unsaleable?


 
Still will be no issue with the AT2000ST Air Top system. The outlets can be worked to your adavntage and it takes up very little interior space. Please sent interior shots of the van to me (nickj@vanbitz.com) and I will take a look and offer suggestions.

Average fitted price inc VAT is £1299.00, with 2 years warranty. This is based on 2 x air outlets with  a rotary controller.

As for noise, Dual Top is a different beast to anything ever done on Webasto's portfolio and I am over the moon with mine (Bearing in mind we have fitted loads of these units retro-fit as internal and external kits). Air Top AT2000 is using the new style variable burner system, with new silencers to reduce noise along with the Thermo C. However we (Van Bitz) have made some personal modifications to reduce the recirculation pump noise on the Thermo Top C and use the Climate System for the fans to vary the fan speed.


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## kevin marks (Nov 24, 2010)

wow many thanks for all the info and comments thinking now of webasto dualtop


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