# Leisure battery help/advice



## chilly (Dec 29, 2012)

My van has a non-intelligent (single stage) leisure battery charger. 
I've been told that, vans with this type of charger shouldn't be left on permanent hook-up. Is this the case?
I've checked the voltage my charger is putting out and it's 14.45V at the battery terminals. Does this sound about right?
Given the above output, what's the ideal length of charge (hook-up) and how often?

It's just that I'm getting a new Leisure battery today and I want to look after it the best I can. Any other tips welcome.

Cheers in advance
Chris


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## Tony Lee (Dec 29, 2012)

If that voltage was measured with the battery connected and that same voltage had been there for more than three or four hours, then there is significant danger that the practice will shorten the life of the batteries. If they are normal flooded-cell batteries, you will likely need to top them up often, and if they are sealed batteries, they will get damaged.

That said, you haven't given us any useful information about either the batteries or the battery changer and at the very least, an idea of the capacity of the batteries, and the "rating" of the charger would help.

Generally the advice would be to leave the charger on until the voltage reached 14.5V and then disconnect it and monitor the battery voltage every few days. Once the voltage reaches say 12.3V, give it another charge cycle. This assumes a charger rated at say 5% of the battery capacity, but if it is one of those monster rapid chargers beloved by the corner garage crowd, you might be better off to get something else.


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## maingate (Dec 29, 2012)

The onboard charger fitted to many vans does not reach 14.5 volts, so yours is either faulty or the voltmeter is not accurate.

Do as Tony says and just charge it as necessary.


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## wints (Dec 29, 2012)

maingate said:


> The onboard charger fitted to many vans does not reach 14.5 volts, so yours is either faulty or the voltmeter is not accurate.



My on board charger (Hymer B614) will occassionally get up to 14.6 volts when on ehu.  This is when the control panel on the Hymer decides that the leisure battery requires a maintenance charge. This might only last an hour or two, then it will gradually reduce to about 13.7 volts. The system is meant to pulse charge, but I've not seen that register on the panel voltmeter.
On solar panel charging only (I've got about 130 watts) the battery voltage follows a smilar pattern, except that when approaching fully charged the panel voltmeter, and the solar regulator, shows the charging rate pulsing.

I'm pretty sure that the on board charger is an intelligent 3 stage one, and also the solar panel regulator.

regards
Allen


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## Dorset Diver (Dec 29, 2012)

*It is not the voltage but the amperage you need to be concerned about*

It is not the voltage but the amperage you need to be concerned about.  A good charger will always bring the battery voltage up to around 14.5v.  Mine usually get to about 14.7v.  BUT at the same time as the battery charge get to full the amperage rate from the charger drops back to very little.  On a near flat leisure   battery mine will start at up to 12 amps and steadily reduce over 8-12 hours to about 0.3 amp, i.e. a maintenance trickle charge.  Constant high amperages will "cook" the battery and should be avoided.  However, most reasonably modern chargers, made in the last 20 years, will reduce the charge level as the battery requires so you should not have a problem.  

Regards

DD


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## maingate (Dec 29, 2012)

wints said:


> My on board charger (Hymer B614) will occassionally get up to 14.6 volts when on ehu.  This is when the control panel on the Hymer decides that the leisure battery requires a maintenance charge. This might only last an hour or two, then it will gradually reduce to about 13.7 volts. The system is meant to pulse charge, but I've not seen that register on the panel voltmeter.
> On solar panel charging only (I've got about 130 watts) the battery voltage follows a smilar pattern, except that when approaching fully charged the panel voltmeter, and the solar regulator, shows the charging rate pulsing.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the on board charger is an intelligent 3 stage one, and also the solar panel regulator.
> ...



As usual here we are trying to help with a problem where the OP has not said what van he has, what charger, or what control system. I checked his details and he has an Adria. As I have no specialist knowledge of these vans, I am staying out of it now. The OP thinks he has a basic charger and so I gave him the best advice I thought under these circumstances. I wish members would give more details as we struggle without it.


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## chilly (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks guys. I should have given more details...
My charger is a Nordelettronica NE143 (not NE143-P or NE143-MH) as far as I know non-intellegent.
The battery I've just been and bought is a 'Leisure Giant' 110 AH. Same as this 110 AMP Giant Leisure Battery -
I got the reading of 14.45 volts using a good quality multimeter.
I got the reading while I had a duff battery in place if that makes any difference.
I am a bit concerned that my charger is over-charging so don't want to knacker my new battery.
I'll take a reading when my new battery is in place and accepting a charge.

I had my charger rebuilt by these guys in June this year.
Apuljack Engineering
Have had no problems since


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 29, 2012)

You could always treat yourself and your van to a new charger that can be left on permanently , they are not a lot of money.

Numax Leisure Battery Charger 12V 10A - Battery Chargers - Numax Battery Chargers

Seems a shame to spoil a brand new battery.


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## onion (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi how can u check how many amps the chargers giving out if still connected to the battery, cos I can't fined my charger , it's a laker eco VIP 7.


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## maingate (Dec 29, 2012)

The Nordelectronnica chargers gave problems on a lot of vans not long ago and convertors stopped using them. I would take the advice given and buy a better, multi-stage charger. In the meantime, just charge now and again to keep it topped up. If there is no constant drain, a new battery should be fine for a few months unless the temperature is very cold for long periods.


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 29, 2012)

Apparently these were some of the problems :-

Nordelettronica Charger Unit | practicalcaravan.com

I know these relate to caravans but they are still the same chargers that are in Motorhomes as well.


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## chris crofter (Dec 29, 2012)

*Hope you dont mind me tagging on to this thread with similar...*

I have 2x 110 Ah leisure batteries in my  Hymer B654 (of unknown age - the batteries! - the van is 1992)  Even when apparently fully charged, very soon after I start using anything in the van the panel tells my that the voltage has dropped to just below 11 volts. It does fine for overnighight stops but I often run the engine in the morning to boost the charge when we get our morning showers! I put a meter on the + ve connection today and see there is a steady .7 amp drain and there is definitely nothing 'on'. (When I turned off the habitation isolation switch this dropped to .3 amps) My thought is that this might 'explain' a drainage, but not the very quick voltage drop?  We are 100% wildcampers so this is a big deal to us. I'm 'happy' to buy a couple of batteries (I do want a large capacity) but just worry that these might possibly OK and I don't want to throw money away! Many thanks if anyone can help. Oh and a Happy Christmwas to anyone who reads this - our tribe (20) left for their own homes yesterday - hence the chance to check out the van! :cool1:


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## Dorset Diver (Dec 29, 2012)

*Test Needed*



chris spratt said:


> I have 2x 110 Ah leisure batteries in my  Hymer B654 (of unknown age - the batteries! - the van is 1992)  Even when apparently fully charged, very soon after I start using anything in the van the panel tells my that the voltage has dropped to just below 11 volts. It does fine for overnighight stops but I often run the engine in the morning to boost the charge when we get our morning showers! I put a meter on the + ve connection today and see there is a steady .7 amp drain and there is definitely nothing 'on'. (When I turned off the habitation isolation switch this dropped to .3 amps) My thought is that this might 'explain' a drainage, but not the very quick voltage drop?  We are 100% wildcampers so this is a big deal to us. I'm 'happy' to buy a couple of batteries (I do want a large capacity) but just worry that these might possibly OK and I don't want to throw money away! Many thanks if anyone can help. Oh and a Happy Christmwas to anyone who reads this - our tribe (20) left for their own homes yesterday - hence the chance to check out the van! :cool1:



What you describe should not happen.  It sounds as if one or both of your batteries is faulty.  Any good local battery supplier will be able to test them.  If one is faulty you should replace both with identical units.  Old and new do not work well together.  The old will damage the new.  Incidentally have you switched of everything?  I found that the telly and freeview units go to standby and still suck a little juice.  Even so two 110 Ah batteries should hardly notice 0.3 amp and a drop to below 12v overnight is really bad.

Regards

DD


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## chris crofter (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks - I've got the hookup on tonight and thought of checking each cell with a hydrometer (sp?) when they were charged to try and identify if there was a duff battery.


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## Dorset Diver (Dec 29, 2012)

*Clues*

Worth a try.  Other clues are:
1.  Have you noticed that certain cells need more topping up than the majority.
2.  How much each cell is "bubbling after a long(ish) charge.  A good cell should be fizzing like a good champagne; a steady number of small bubbles.  A poor cell will usually bubble hard with large bubbles.  But, *and here is the health warning*, it has to be done with the charger on so be very careful not to get splashed.  Looking in a cell puts eyes at risk so use protection and have some fresh water ready to wash away any spillage / splash.  Good luck and please let me know the outcome.

BR

DD


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## Tony Lee (Dec 29, 2012)

There are a few things that contribute to phantom loads, but sometimes the biggest culprit is the battery charger itself, or the electrical control centre.

Others include permanently connected propane alarms - up to 0.1 amps -  and anything with a remote control or standby load such as TVs and sound systems. Faulty solar regulators or solar systems without "back-flow" prevention aren't common but do exist. Any connection between the engine and habitation batteries also needs to be checked.
Half an amp adds up to 12Ah a day and a dead flat battery in a week so it doesn't take much. During long layups, it is often worthy making sure the battery is fully charged and then lifting the negative lead. Check the open circuit voltage often enough to know when to recharge again. Below freezing means more care needed to keep the battery charged so it doesn't freeze. Good AGM batteries can be charged properly and then safely left for up to a year if necessary.

Can be hard to track down phantom loads and generally require the batteries to be completely disconnected and then each circuit connected via an ammeter.

BTW it may be current that does the damage, but a long-term high voltage to the battery isn't a good sign. The battery charger must drop back to either a pulse mode or a float mode within hours of reaching the end of the bulk charge cycle - normally said to be about 14.4 volts - more in cold weather, less in hot if temperature compensation is fitted. Gel batteries are different and some Gel cycles advocate up to 12 hours between bulk and float modes.


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## chilly (Dec 30, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice/tips.
Right, I've dropped in the new battery. It wasn't fully charged so have put on ehu. The charger is putting in 14.45V.
I'm going to take it off charge when fully charged, turn off control panel and only put it on charge when needed (not full time ehu like I used to!). You learn something every day!
May invest in an intelligent charger sometime.

Tomorrow off to Appletreewick pub stopover for new years eve:cheers:

Hope ya all have a good 'un

Chris


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## chris crofter (Dec 30, 2012)

*to Dorset Diver*

Thanks. I left the hookup on all night and the charge was up to 12.7 v this am when I checked (hookup off). Consequently the onboard charger had cut right down and there was therefore no longer any significant evidence of bubbles, so couldn't check that way. I did check each cell with a hydrometer and the results were approximately equal and all looked OK. I have turned off the habitation cutoff switch (which brought the 'leakage' down from .7amps to .3 amps) and will leave it for a few days and check the charge again. - I'm told we aren't going anywhere in the van for a few days anyway :sad: - So I guess I'll keep on checking meantime - hey we're Scots, we don't lash out money if it can be avoided!  Thanks for all comments and if I have any Eureka moments, I'll post them.    C.


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## The Raptor (Dec 30, 2012)

I've  just bought another Halfords maintenance charger (model 188946) which trickle charges at 750mA, they are £24.99. They come with 2leads one has crocodile clips, the other has a 2m lead with rings to leave attached permanently on the battery. I have used one on my vehicle battery for 18 months. I just bought one for my neighbours MH as his battery was going flat. 
As always Halfords have just replaced it with a new model that only has crocs, my local store was able to put in the above code and i drove the 20 miles to get the old model.
Hope this helps..
Dave.
ps. If you cant get one locally i  could buy one as they still had 3 left and post it to you for p&p + cost


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## wints (Dec 30, 2012)

It's roundabout this time of year that Aldi (or it maybe Lidl) sell their 3 stage intelligent chargers, I think for about a tenner. 
These chargers are ace !   I'm pretty sure they are a 'copy' of the very expensive Ctek 12 volt charger.
I've got one, and used it on my motorbike, car, scooter, also on the van battery.

regards
Allen


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## chris crofter (Dec 31, 2012)

wints said:


> It's roundabout this time of year that Aldi (or it maybe Lidl) sell their 3 stage intelligent chargers, I think for about a tenner.
> These chargers are ace !   I'm pretty sure they are a 'copy' of the very expensive Ctek 12 volt charger.
> I've got one, and used it on my motorbike, car, scooter, also on the van battery.
> 
> ...



These chargers are brilliant. I have one and have led a mains voltage cable out in to the engine compartment and wired in a 3 pin socket so I can charge my starter battery on hookup.( I know there are more hi tech ways of doing this but as I'm a wildcamper this is unlikely to happen very often. Also it gives me a mains outlet for an inspection light etc. if needed.)
Happy New Year everyone and happy wild campin'  ;-)


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## GRWXJR (Jan 2, 2013)

*Battery Charging*

I don't claim to be an expert on batteries (and a total muppet on campervans cos I only just bought one!), but I have done a fair bit with deep-cycle battery packs and with intelligent chargers (specifying and fitting them on emergency power generators and off-grid domestic electrical systems).  What I work on as a basis is this.....

Amperage.  A charger has to have the necessary 'spuds' to charge a battery fast enough without overdoing it.  As a rough guide its nice if you can charge your battery at 10% of its rated capacity (so a 10A Charger for a 100A battery).  Charging a battery too fast will shorten its life, while not having enough shove can mean that the battery never gets fully charged also.

The battery voltage is only nominally 12v (or 2v per cell, with 6 cells in a monobloc 12v battery).  The cells need to be charged to over 2v per cell (or over 12v total) to fully charge them.  That's why engine charge alternators typically put out around 14.4 volts (so will my intelligent Numax 10A charger I've put in the van on 'bulk').

Intelligent chargers reduce the peak charging voltage to around 13v once they get to the maintenance or 'Float' stage.  This is to prevent overcharging and damage to the cell plates (and what basic chargers do not do).

A basic but powerful charger will bring up the voltage on a battery very fast.  But it is worth knowing that just because the voltage on a battery is good, that doesn't mean that it is properly charged.  A partially discharged battery needs to be brought to full voltage over time (hence don't use a charger bigger than 10% of the rated capacity of the battery) and then maintained at that voltage (known as the Absorption stage) for a period before it will be charged properly and the Specific Gravity (SG) of the cells will be healthy.

Bubbling in cells was mentioned.  Yes this can occur if a cell is defective, but will also occur if a cell is being 'gassed' or 'equalised'.  Equalising is effectively controlled and limited-time overcharging of a cell to boost the specific gravity (SG) value in the cell electrolyte (and thus the health of the cell).  Equalising also has the effect of 'stirring-up' the electrolyte which helps keep the fluid well mixed and reduces stratification and sediment build-up which will damage the cell plates.

A good intelligent charger will bang in a higher voltage and current when the battery needs it, and will back-off when the battery doesn't need a high input and will look after a battery far better than a basic fixed output charger will (as the design and logic sorts out what the connected battery needs, without you needing to know about it).

IMO an intelligent charger of suitable size to match the battery pack capacity is the way to go.

The little 'Plug' type Lidl chargers are great as a maintenance charger to keep an already fully charged battery maintained (hence they are great for keeping a charged starting battery on a laid-up vehicle in good order) but they don't have the current rating to recharge a sizeable battery all that well.  If you check the Amp rating on one of these, I suspect it's maybe 1 Amp or so - not enough.

As I said at the top - my main experience is on systems where there might be 1000AH at nominal 48VDC (like a Fork Lift truck sized battery pack) or similar where we have employed these kinds of charging regimes, not a single Leisure Battery for a van.  But I think the same principles apply .

Geez I'm boring :beer: - I gotta get out more!


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## Greytop (Jan 4, 2013)

*Worried Now*

This is a very interesting thread but is also now worrying me a little. I do not normally leave my electric hook up continually charging except in the winter months. This is because I run a mains de-humidifier constantly and therefore leave my van on electric hook up. Of course I am now worried that I may be slowly ruining my LB. I had thought it would be safe to do so with my particular Motorhome and had not considered otherwise, although I can find no information about the subject in my documentation.
Motorhome is a 2002 Hymer Swing. Anybody got any ideas on the subject?


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi Greytop

It doesn`t matter what  Make and Model your Motorhome is.

It`s the *" Make and Model of the Onboard Charging System " *that`s important.

Have a look which one it is and put the details on here then someone will be able to help.


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## Greytop (Jan 4, 2013)

*Make and Model*

Hi Wooie surely it does matter what the make and model of the MH is, because then you know what systems that particular manufacturer in a particular year installed in the van. I think I saw it mentioned on one of the threads that German manufacturers tended to install the 3 stage chargers.
But I take your point and I will look at the charger details.


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## maingate (Jan 4, 2013)

I have a Burstner with a similar charging regime to a Hymer (Elektroblok). Mine is hooked up all the time through the Winter as I have an oil filled radiator ticking over. It has not done my batteries any harm (and the van battery is the original and is 10 years + old).


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 4, 2013)

Greytop said:


> Hi Wooie surely it does matter what the make and model of the MH is, because then you know what systems that particular manufacturer in a particular year installed in the van. I think I saw it mentioned on one of the threads that German manufacturers tended to install the 3 stage chargers.
> But I take your point and I will look at the charger details.





Hi there,

In 99% of cases that is correct, however, there are Motorhomes  out there that do not have the Standard Charging System fitted.

For one reason or another they have different systems fitted, this could be by the Manufacturer changing the units they use or the
Supplying Dealer changing a faulty one. This happened to the Father-in-Law and his Auto-Trail has a Non-Standard unit fitted to his
van after numerous problems with the original within the first 6 months.

Just because a van is lets say 2004 registered it`s not necessarily a 2004 Model and could be a couple of years old having sat in
a dealers for a while. Meanwhile specs and fittings can change.

To be on the safe side always state the Make and Model of the one that is actually fitted to your van.

All i was trying to do was to help you get the right info for your Charging System and i`m sorry if it`s caused any confusion.


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## maingate (Jan 4, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> In 99% of cases that is correct, however, there are Motorhomes  out there that do not have the Standard Charging System fitted.
> 
> ...



A lot of British vans had the Nordelettronica Units fitted and they were useless in most cases. That is why they were changed and the manufacturers started using Sargent systems.


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## wints (Jan 4, 2013)

GRWXJR said:


> The little 'Plug' type Lidl chargers are great as a maintenance charger to keep an already fully charged battery maintained (hence they are great for keeping a charged starting battery on a laid-up vehicle in good order) but they don't have the current rating to recharge a sizeable battery all that well.  If you check the Amp rating on one of these, I suspect it's maybe 1 Amp or so - not enough.
> 
> Geez I'm boring :beer: - I gotta get out more!



The Lidl / Aldi charger is rated at 3.8 amps, and is easily capable of fully charging a large battery, eg my daughters 2.8TD autotrail 100 + amp engine battery over the recent xmas holiday.  Battery was so flat that the solenoid wasn't operating, after 2 days on the charger it worked a treat.

regards
Allen


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