# student s hi jinks in london



## Deleted member 775 (Nov 11, 2010)

just watched the news about the student rally in london yesterday .our dear leader of this government said he was outraged at the behavior of a minority of students in london yesterday ,and said "there were not enough police on duty there" how is he going to explain the lack of police when the cuts in the police budget leaves even less officers on the streets   gun.. foot shot in the... comes to mind


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## Deleted member 3802 (Nov 11, 2010)

THEY WILL DO LIKE THEY DID IN 1984 AND DRESS THE ARMY UP AS POLICE 
remember 1973 winter of discontent it's coming again and these same groups will be at every demo


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## robjmckinney (Nov 11, 2010)

*Can you really blame them!*

High fees 'Camoron' admits will subsidise foriegn students, it seems all the University's will increase fees to the max of £9000, the government said very few would max out!


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## robjmckinney (Nov 11, 2010)

The biggest social group to take advantage of the great Uni expansion has been Middle Class girls.
The reason children stay at school to 18 and many go on to Uni is there is no jobs for them, immigration has destroyed youth employment!
No doubt they will officially extend education and training to 25 as they do now unofficially!


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## Kontiki (Nov 11, 2010)

I would be interested to know how many of the ones who caused the problem were students, also how many students voted tory or liberal. I would also have thought that it should have been the liberal offices to take the brunt of their demo as it was them that broke their promise  . Personally I didn't vote for either, but what's the problem I thought everybody knew what the policies were of each of the major parties before the election. There were enough warnings about the cuts & how drastic they were going to be. Did certain groups think they would be exempt from the pain, we are all going to suffer it's just a case of how much.

We have a democratic system, we have the government the majority voted for in our current political system & as long as they have a majority they can run the country. As I said I voted for the losers but I hope the policies they are putting in place will help us all as being retired I am stuck with what I've got as my earning days are over.


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## John H (Nov 11, 2010)

robjmckinney said:


> The reason children stay at school to 18 and many go on to Uni is there is no jobs for them, immigration has destroyed youth employment!


 
So let me get this right - the reason why our 18 year olds are going to University is because of all those immigrants taking the cleaning jobs, the portering jobs, the driving jobs, the fruit-picking jobs, the sweat-shop jobs, the labouring jobs etc etc. If only our youth had the chance to do these minimum wage (or worse) jobs then they wouldn't bother to apply to Cambridge. It all makes perfect sense to me now.


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## John H (Nov 11, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> I would also have thought that it should have been the liberal offices to take the brunt of their demo as it was them that broke their promise



I couldn't agree more - at least if you voted Tory you knew what was coming but I voted liberal because in the seat where I live it was either Tory or Liberal - I did not vote for this and I can completely understand why people would feel bloody angry with the liberals - if they had kept their promise the Tories wouldn't be able to do it. The demonstrators were picketing the wrong lot.


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## Tigatigatiger (Nov 12, 2010)

I too work in education at Oxford Uni, I am member of the teaching staff in a science dept. I don't have degree but did serve an engineering apprenticeship the old fashioned type, 4 years studying the same trade (instumentation and control) plus college/poly part time. 
So I work closely with the undergraduates.
The facts are:- state school kids do better at Oxford, more state school kids applied and got in here in the 60's and 70's. Now in our department over 50% ( a fact of which we are ashamed of) of our in take are from private over overseas-something which we have and still are working hard to change. 
The costs are putting kids off? Plus kids are kids and in most cases will take the easy options at school, so going for softer lessions? We are getting students in here with no practical knowledge/skills (it's part of my job to teach practical skills), health and safety gone mad?
There are to many degrees which are of little worth (I will include some Oxford degrees here), we need to encourage young people to go into engineering, science, medicine, teaching, etc. etc. So these degrees should subsidized, so their fees are far lower.

We need to stop telling kids that if you haven't a degree you have failed in some way? We need skilled people, my brother runs a company (engineerig based) he can't get and keep skilled people?? He tried to setup engineering apprenticeships as his factory, he gave up, because of the red tape and hoops he asked to jump though.

We'll never be able to compete in price against the likes of china, but we can compete and with knowledge, innovations, and quality. 

A foot note before I complete my rant of the day-my brothers company has sold over 20 millions pound worth of goods to the chinese goverment.


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## shawbags (Nov 27, 2010)

This government want only those who can easily pay the fees such as the rich to go to university and not the lower paid sector,keep the rich rich and the poor poor its always been that way and always will  .The amount of times ive been at work and heard,"your not here to think" you would not believe.If it became easy for anyone to get a good education alot more people would have a lot more to say about how the country is being treated and that wouldn't do.As for voting, no one ever gets what they vote for because who ever wins always move the goalposts when they get into power,they then build us up over a few months about whats going to happen and then drop it on us thinking it won't hit us so hard,how dim do they think the general public are but this time they have been stupid enough to kick the next generation in the teath and one of those protesters could become a future priminister,as for people from over seas getting everything for nothing that has always baffled me.I worked for many years and have very rarely worked anywhere near as low as a 40 hour week,my ours of work were between 60 and 70 hours and i was lucky to take home £380-400 a week,i am 45 and will probably never be able to work again because of health isues bought on through working myself into the ground and i am now looked on as a burden to the state ,good luck to the protesters,shawbags. P.S have a bloody good bar humbug christmas .


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 27, 2010)

i have some sympathy with the students, but in this economic climate when the government are cutting back on care for the elderly, saying that we all need to work longer to get our pensions which they say is crippling the country and the majority of us have worked for since the age of 15 .i think that the students need to contribute to the education budget for the next group entering uni .any student that studdies subjects that help toward the country ,ie doctors, science , that type of degree should not be forced to pay .but when it come down to media studies  and subjects similer to that whare they are doing it just to benifit there own future then full fees should be payed by all  .after all if we want a better richer retirement then we have to provide for ourseves through private pensions the state will not fund that for us will they .and i dobt that when the students have qualified will they be willing to top the state pension up for us  i doubt it . but good luck to them at least they are willing to get out there and demonstrate against cuts in there education. we unfortunatly are too willing to take everything we get chucked at us, moan and do nothing .they have the guts we take the cuts


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## shawbags (Nov 27, 2010)

Why are they making such cut backs in the U.K and then lending or giving money to other countrys,they keep saying we are in deep sh*t so our government must be borrowing money to lend or give money.As for pensions is there anyone left that we can trust to invest our money NO!!!,they are all thieves and liars look at the thousands of people over the last few years who have lost everything,also you supposed to be able to have time to relax and actually spend your pension but a lot of people will die before they get the chance and where does your pension go if you die before you get chance to spend it,back to the government so they can give it away or put it in to some laim brain scheme that will never benefit us.As for fighting for your rights if you try that in this country you are either raccist a,a trouble maker or you need to see a doctor but in saying that we normaly as you said just sit back and take it,our government laugh in our face,we are all bloody fools and its about time we all stood up and said No!!! .


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## shawbags (Nov 27, 2010)

Tigatigatiger said:


> I too work in education at Oxford Uni, I am member of the teaching staff in a science dept. I don't have degree but did serve an engineering apprenticeship the old fashioned type, 4 years studying the same trade (instumentation and control) plus college/poly part time.
> So I work closely with the undergraduates.
> The facts are:- state school kids do better at Oxford, more state school kids applied and got in here in the 60's and 70's. Now in our department over 50% ( a fact of which we are ashamed of) of our in take are from private over overseas-something which we have and still are working hard to change.
> The costs are putting kids off? Plus kids are kids and in most cases will take the easy options at school, so going for softer lessions? We are getting students in here with no practical knowledge/skills (it's part of my job to teach practical skills), health and safety gone mad?
> ...


 
Why the red tape,it makes you wonder,if anyone in this country tries to make a go of it they normaly try there best to stop it or tax you to the hilt .


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 27, 2010)

never a truer word spoken my freind i agree totaly with your comment, if we turn to the polltax riots a few years ago we are classed as trouble causers and should be jailed we may even be classed as inciting civil unrest even urban terrorists but if that is what it takes to make this government see sence then so be it  .yes we need to do somthing about the mess we are supposed to be in and i would agree with them to a certain extent that some cuts in our expedditure must be made ,but when they give 7 billion pounds away to others when we are supposed to be bankrupt almost and  with no hope of ever getting it back is beyond me it maks me disbeleve we are in as much of a mess as they make out .


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## Firefox (Nov 28, 2010)

All these protests are hijacked by far left groups, militant union people, and anarchists so it's difficult to see who is protesting.

Go to any student union in the country and you'll still see it is an orgy of beer drinking, bar nights and Ents. I'm not saying it was any different when I was at Uni, but then I didn't complain or protest about them taking away our grants and housing benefits. I just got on with studying and drinking as much beer as the reduced money allowed. While the beer still flows they've not got much cause for complaint, and believe me the beer is still flowing!


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## shawbags (Nov 28, 2010)

Firefox said:


> All these protests are hijacked by far left groups, militant union people, and anarchists so it's difficult to see who is protesting.
> 
> Go to any student union in the country and you'll still see it is an orgy of beer drinking, bar nights and Ents. I'm not saying it was any different when I was at Uni, but then I didn't complain or protest about them taking away our grants and housing benefits. I just got on with studying and drinking as much beer as the reduced money allowed. While the beer still flows they've not got much cause for complaint, and believe me the beer is still flowing!


 
So what your saying is no matter what the government take off us we should grin and bare it,its only hapening more so now because people have had enough of the government treating us like fools.Lets go back to scargil and the minors thatcher as good as tried to starve them to death and because it did not effect us we mostly sat back and tried to egnore it,the problem with us is we don't stick together any more and sit back with the "i'm alright jack" atitude,how much more should we take.I'm not saying rebel against the government just stand up and be counted eventualy they would have to listen.


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

John H said:


> So let me get this right - the reason why our 18 year olds are going to University is because of all those immigrants taking the cleaning jobs, the portering jobs, the driving jobs, the fruit-picking jobs, the sweat-shop jobs, the labouring jobs etc etc. If only our youth had the chance to do these minimum wage (or worse) jobs then they wouldn't bother to apply to Cambridge. It all makes perfect sense to me now.


 
                        Also taking jobs in retail, in building, computer-based statistical work. Immigrants are also brought into this country to fill highly skilled roles in quantities that Britain lacks, hence there is therefore no need to educate and train the indigenous population into those roles. Companies can bring in their own workers from abroad thus removing the need for them to train workers here. 
              Immigrants also take up a lot of semi-skilled and highly-skilled positions in hospitals. Do you think that all immigrants into this country are ill-trained and ill-educated morons, a good many bring in skills and qualifications, ok they may start off doing menial jobs but we all know where there ambitions lie.
             Just see how many sons and daughters of former immigrants are training to be doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, opthamologists, etc.


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

mandrake said:


> i have some sympathy with the students, but in this economic climate when the government are cutting back on care for the elderly, saying that we all need to work longer to get our pensions which they say is crippling the country and the majority of us have worked for since the age of 15 .i think that the students need to contribute to the education budget for the next group entering uni .any student that studdies subjects that help toward the country ,ie doctors, science , that type of degree should not be forced to pay .but when it come down to media studies  and subjects similer to that whare they are doing it just to benifit there own future then full fees should be payed by all  .after all if we want a better richer retirement then we have to provide for ourseves through private pensions the state will not fund that for us will they .and i dobt that when the students have qualified will they be willing to top the state pension up for us  i doubt it . but good luck to them at least they are willing to get out there and demonstrate against cuts in there education. we unfortunatly are too willing to take everything we get chucked at us, moan and do nothing .they have the guts we take the cuts


 
               Don't doctors study medicine to benefit their own future? And don't doctors usually come from families that can afford to help their offspring financially. And as for the salary that qualified doctors achieve, well lets not go there.


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## John H (Nov 28, 2010)

mandrake said:


> i have some sympathy with the students, but in this economic climate when the government are cutting back on care for the elderly, saying that we all need to work longer to get our pensions which they say is crippling the country and the majority of us have worked for since the age of 15 .i think that the students need to contribute to the education budget for the next group entering uni .any student that studdies subjects that help toward the country ,ie doctors, science , that type of degree should not be forced to pay .but when it come down to media studies  and subjects similer to that whare they are doing it just to benifit there own future then full fees should be payed by all  .after all if we want a better richer retirement then we have to provide for ourseves through private pensions the state will not fund that for us will they .and i dobt that when the students have qualified will they be willing to top the state pension up for us  i doubt it . but good luck to them at least they are willing to get out there and demonstrate against cuts in there education. we unfortunatly are too willing to take everything we get chucked at us, moan and do nothing .they have the guts we take the cuts


 
The bit of this that I would question is the bit about anyone studying medicine not having to pay and anyone doing media studies being made to pay. Who decides what is "useful" to the rest of us. And when a Dr Shipman surfaces, as well as putting him in jail for the rest of his life do we also ask him to return his tuition fees? And when somebody who has a degree in media studies becomes a film director who brings joy to many do we offer to give his money back? I can't see this working - and I don't fancy having the government decide who might or not be useful in the future (sounds a bit like 1984 to me!). But the rest of it - especially the bits about having the guts to stand up and be counted - I am totally behind. 

And while I'm at it - how come we are making students pay exhorbitant tuition fees while at the same time handing out money left right and centre to Irish bankers. I know this is a point that has been made by several others but it particularly makes my blood boil because I voted LibDem as the only alternative to the Tories where I live. I won't make that bloody mistake again!


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## John H (Nov 28, 2010)

bigal said:


> Also taking jobs in retail, in building, computer-based statistical work. Immigrants are also brought into this country to fill highly skilled roles in quantities that Britain lacks, hence there is therefore no need to educate and train the indigenous population into those roles. Companies can bring in their own workers from abroad thus removing the need for them to train workers here.
> Immigrants also take up a lot of semi-skilled and highly-skilled positions in hospitals. Do you think that all immigrants into this country are ill-trained and ill-educated morons, a good many bring in skills and qualifications, ok they may start off doing menial jobs but we all know where there ambitions lie.
> Just see how many sons and daughters of former immigrants are training to be doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, opthamologists, etc.


 
Difficult to follow your thinking. First you say young people are flocking to university because immigrants have taken all the jobs they might otherwise do and then you turn this completely on its head by saying that skilled immigrants are being brought in because of a skills shortage among the "indigenous" population - and that their presence removes the need to train that "indigenous" population. And what on earth is wrong with the sons and daughters of immigrants (or anybody else for that matter) wanting to improve their lot by training to be doctors etc?


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

John H said:


> Difficult to follow your thinking. First you say young people are flocking to university because immigrants have taken all the jobs they might otherwise do and then you turn this completely on its head by saying that skilled immigrants are being brought in because of a skills shortage among the "indigenous" population - and that their presence removes the need to train that "indigenous" population. And what on earth is wrong with the sons and daughters of immigrants (or anybody else for that matter) wanting to improve their lot by training to be doctors etc?



       Let me try to explain for you.......

       1.   I never said that "young people are flocking to university".

       2.  The reasons that people go to university are many and multi-faceted, the absence of jobs available is one reason.

       3.  Did I say or imply that there was anything wrong with sons or daughters wanting to improve their lot?

       4.  You do not have the exclusive right to an opinion.

       5.  It is your problem if you cannot follow the thread of someone elses arguement.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

shawbags said:


> So what your saying is no matter what the government take off us we should grin and bare it,its only hapening more so now because people have had enough of the government treating us like fools.Lets go back to scargil and the minors thatcher as good as tried to starve them to death and because it did not effect us we mostly sat back and tried to egnore it,the problem with us is we don't stick together any more and sit back with the "i'm alright jack" atitude,how much more should we take.I'm not saying rebel against the government just stand up and be counted eventualy they would have to listen.


i agree totaly ,thatchers tory government did try to starve us out and when she found out that was not realy working ,she payed to start a new union the democratic miners union  to go back to work thats what broke the num miners, and the army that were dressed up as police. any way it wasnot only the mines that suffered in those times .the steel industry dident fair too well did it in fact about that time most of our manufacturing capability went down the pan and what happens now we import coal that is the dirtiest and hily polutant we buy our steel from india .even that small amount we do produce the proffits go out of this country as tata owns it  the only time that thatchers government was made to do a u turn was the poltax riots and the only reason was WE STUCK TOGETHER. we have a leader that beleives that thatcher was the saivior of tory ideals and apart from the hair and dress he is thatcher .with  a glove puppet at his side from the liberal party who lets face it when they managed to run a government on there  own made such a mess they never succeded in forming a government after as the whipping boy .  we must preferably without violence if thats posible all show this government we are not going to accept the policies he is proposing ok we need to get some sort of order to our financial situation however bad that may be or not be  , but not with these deep deep cuts they are proposing .


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

Just look at the role the students played in the French Revolution. Any government ignores them at their peril, after all they are full of fire and ambition, or should be, they are looking to the future, and they have the sympathy of the population because they are our sons and daughters.


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## John H (Nov 28, 2010)

bigal said:


> 5.  It is your problem if you cannot follow the thread of someone elses arguement.


 
Absolutely right - I apologise for being an idiot. My defence is that when you responded to my response, I assumed, without checking, that you were the original person to whom I was responding and that you had switched your argument. Sorry!


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

bigal said:


> Just look at the role the students played in the French Revolution. Any government ignores them at their peril, after all they are full of fire and ambition, or should be, they are looking to the future, and they have the sympathy of the population because they are our sons and daughters.


 
just think if we stuck together as they do, and we joined ranks with them .then the powers to be would have to listen to us


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

and I don't fancy having the government decide who might or not be useful in the future (sounds a bit like 1984 to me!). .........................         to me the government are at this moment deciding who are usefull and who are not . as the cuts seem selective to me  the cuts to public spending will affect the lower end of the food chain and not the upper end of the public sector .not only are they wanting to in percentage terms cut the jobs of the  blue collar workers in favor of the white collar staff who sit in there offices and waste money given them out of our pockets,  but are also decemating  pension entitelment to the people that are at the front line of our services, nurses, fire men, and the police on the streets ,  not to mention the guy that empties our bins and keeps the streets clean, and all the other workers we need to look after our needs there are many many more that are facing a bleak future . but i must agree with you the bankers who realy call the shots in this country and caused this mess  get off scot free.


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## John H (Nov 28, 2010)

mandrake said:


> and I don't fancy having the government decide who might or not be useful in the future (sounds a bit like 1984 to me!). .........................         to me the government are at this moment deciding who are usefull and who are not . as the cuts seem selective to me  the cuts to public spending will affect the lower end of the food chain and not the upper end of the public sector .not only are they wanting to in percentage terms cut the jobs of the  blue collar workers in favor of the white collar staff who sit in there offices and waste money given them out of our pockets,  but are also decemating  pension entitelment to the people that are at the front line of our services, nurses, fire men, and the police on the streets ,  not to mention the guy that empties our bins and keeps the streets clean, and all the other workers we need to look after our needs there are many many more that are facing a bleak future . but i must agree with you the bankers who realy call the shots in this country and caused this mess  get off scot free.


 
Agree totally with your analysis - but would split hairs by saying that the government isn't deciding so much who will be useful, rather they are deciding who will benefit - and it ain't the people you correctly list!


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

mandrake said:


> just think if we stuck together as they do, and we joined ranks with them .then the powers to be would have to listen to us


 
          Exactly. The problem then would be in having a consolidated opinion, manifesto, arguement that belonged to the majority of the people that we could impose upon the government to act upon in our interests. But don't we all really know whose interests the government has at heart, i.e it's own and the banks'.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

as we dont have a thanks button, i will say it to you "thanks"  and will allow your hair  splitting exersise


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## shawbags (Nov 28, 2010)

If they put more time into educating our own children why would there be any need for outsiders,there are plenty of kids in our schools that could fill the boots of doctor,lawyers,bankers and no dowt the priminister already here without imigrants coming over and being handed an education on a silver platter or should i say gold platter.I have always worked damned hard for my cash and never been given anything,i left school without any qualification that would have made a great deal of difference to thr curiers that i have followed,in saying that i am educated enough to be able to make better discisions then our government standing on my head after drinking 10 pints of lager.At the end of the day our government will do what they want if we don't stand together,a couple of you have mentioned the french,if they put there foot down there government have to listen because the protesters over there don't give in.
  There has been a lot going on with the English deffence league at the momment and are being acused of ensiteing racism,its our government that cause the racism because of the way we are being pi*sed on from a great hight in our own country and i wonder if they are doing it on purpose for what ever reason.
Again please excuse my spelling and grammer,cheers Shawbags.


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## Kontiki (Nov 29, 2010)

It's a shame that such a few rabble get so much attention from the news media. I doubt if many of the real trouble makers actually go to university.

Getting back to the main point of tution fees, given that a government decides on a budget, you can't pick & mix bits of it to suit your own situation. To me the tuition fees have no interest to me as both my kids are working (one has just finished an apprenticeship, she had to do an extra year on low pay to keep her job or leave. It is not an easy option & in some ways she has had to suffer for 4 years) From my understanding they don't have to pay any money back until they are earning a reasonable wage, many of them will go on to earn large sums of money from the rest of us. I do believe that the fees should be proportional to how useful the job they will be doing when they qualify.
If people think things like this are bad just wait until the VAT goes up  this will mean everything will go up (even food as the cost of producing & transport will be affected)
I have never & can never see myself ever voting for the tory party, but I believe in democracy & they won the largest share of the vote. While I disagree with many of their policies I am not prepared to accept the 'mob rules' mentality. I sympathize with anybody who conned by the liberals who seem to be willing to ditch all their promises for the sake of a bit of power & can only see them losing many seats. They have done nothing to help their views on PR or the alternative vote system as any such change would lead to more coalitions.

Well had may say & I'll leave it at that


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## Firefox (Nov 29, 2010)

The Liberal Democrats were caught between a rock and a hard place. Clearly they didn't win as many votes as the Tories and therefore it's unreasonable to expect that all their policies are going to get through and therefore it's unreasonable to say they are "willing to ditch all their policies."

It is reasonable to say they had to be willing to ditch SOME of their policies. Which ones they had to ditch was to a large extent dictated by the Tories since the Tories were the senior partners. This is the compromise of coalition and it's something most of the electorate are unfamiliar with. Coalition happens in councils all over the country but at a National level people just assume some party or other wins and implements all their manifesto. As soon as something different happens, people go into "error, does not compute mode" start crying "traitors" and all sorts of illogical stuff.

The alternative was that the Liberals didn't bother to negotiate, and plunged the country into another 6 months or more of uncertainty with all the risks on the financial markets that involves. To do that would have been irresponsible of them, to say the least.

We should be grateful we at least have a stable government and are not wallowing around in political and financial turmoil like Ireland. It's easy to take what we have for granted.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 29, 2010)

well i apreciate your oppinion firefox but and it is a big but .the electorate vote for the party they belive in because of there policies ,thay make there promises and if you agree then you vote for a party. to ditch the majority of there ideals just to get into power then to me, and i do not vote they have betrayed there voters and more to the point they betray themselves .we all know any political party make a few wild prommises they never keep we expect that ,but what the lib dems have done is  to totaly go against there beliefs, did they not say in the run up to the election  that the tory partys policies were wrong ,then how could they go into power with them and support most of there policies after all they dissagreed with the tories  .no they have let there voting public down and commited political suicide in the procces and as for a stable government we will have to see, 5 years is a long time how can two political parties that opposed each others manifestos agree to run a country ,unless that is, one of them bows down to the other and tows the line .


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## John H (Nov 29, 2010)

A couple of points:

1. Some people have talked about foreign students coming here and getting free or cheap education while English-born children have to pay to go to University. This is not so. One of the reasons why there are a lot of foreign students in English Universities is because the Universities are allowed to charge them what they like (there is no upper limit as there is with English students). Consequently, there are African students sitting next to English students, having paid as much as ten times what the English students will pay (and the foreigners have to pay upfront as well).

2. Some people have said the LibDems had no choice but to ditch some of their policies because they are the junior partner. Yes they did. This wasn't just another policy; it was one of the cornerstones of their campaign - and the reason they won so many University seats. A Party with principles would have refused to go into government, let the Tories run a minority administration and force another election in the near future, when they probably would have done a lot better (instead of facing almost certain annihilation as they do now).


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## Firefox (Nov 29, 2010)

You can say the same thing about the Tories. They have had to adopt some Liberal Democrat policy. It's just mature compromise. Clearly since the Tories won more votes/seats than the Liberals, then the majority of the policy is going to be Tory. I don't know what else anyone would expect.

It happens all the time in elections, national, local etc etc. During the leadership campaign or whatever, the gloves are off, and people state exactly what they believe. After the battle is fought, everyone has to pull together for the good of the party or the country or the council. Naturally this means people can't get everything they want. They have to sacrifice some things while gaining in other areas. Isn't it the same in all of life?

The alternative, in governmental terms, is instability, financial suicide, and anarchy.


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## Firefox (Nov 29, 2010)

(By the way, both the Liberals and Labour would have been crushed at another election because only the Tories had the money to fight it, being subsidised by Ashcroft's millions and other wealthy bankrollers. More often than one would think, politics is not about principle, it's about money - it shouldn't be so but that's a fact.

But the main thing about another election is that months of instability would have meant the financial crisis would have been much much deeper)


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 29, 2010)

John H said:


> A couple of points:
> 
> 1. Some people have talked about foreign students coming here and getting free or cheap education while English-born children have to pay to go to University. This is not so. One of the reasons why there are a lot of foreign students in English Universities is because the Universities are allowed to charge them what they like (there is no upper limit as there is with English students). Consequently, there are African students sitting next to English students, having paid as much as ten times what the English students will pay (and the foreigners have to pay upfront as well).
> 
> 2. Some people have said the LibDems had no choice but to ditch some of their policies because they are the junior partner. Yes they did. This wasn't just another policy; it was one of the cornerstones of their campaign - and the reason they won so many University seats. A Party with principles would have refused to go into government, let the Tories run a minority administration and force another election in the near future, when they probably would have done a lot better (instead of facing almost certain annihilation as they do now).


 
i dont confess to know wether or not overseas students have to pay more than our students ,but if so that is how it should be .after all they have not contributed toward any of our state benefits we get education or health ecetera and if they want our education they should pay for the privelige .  and as for your second point yes i agree with your statement so i need not to comment .  as for firefox well we all have a right to our own veiws and it would be a poor man to deny them , but it seems to me and a lot of people i have spoken to, belive the libs have gone against there principals which is unforgivable  just for a moment of power and mistaken glory which will cost them dearly in the future .


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## John H (Nov 29, 2010)

If the LibDems had not gone into coalition, the Tories would have been allowed to run a minority administration (as the SNP have done in Scotland) and then a new election would have followed in a few months or so. The new election would have been fought with a Tory budget in place and the electorate would have had the chance to say whether they wanted such policies to continue. There is nothing to suggest that anarchy or financial instability would have resulted - this is a common statement put out by those who favour "strong" government but if you look at history - and if you look at other countries - there is very little evidence to back it up. Some of the weakest economies in the world have "strong" government and some of the most successful economies have in recent history had no overall political control. For example, the USA now has a deadlocked government with Democrats in charge of the White House and Senate and Republicans in charge of the House of Representatives. Theoretically this means no-one can get a budget through - and it happens more often than not. But if you chart the economic health of the USA it does not go up when one party has "Strong" government" and down the rest of the time.


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## John H (Nov 29, 2010)

mandrake said:


> i dont confess to know wether or not overseas students have to pay more than our students ,but if so that is how it should be .after all they have not contributed toward any of our state benefits we get education or health ecetera and if they want our education they should pay for the privelige .


 
Just to clarify - I wasn't saying they shouldn't pay more, I was saying that the claim of some that they get it for free isn't true.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 29, 2010)

John H said:


> Just to clarify - I wasn't saying they shouldn't pay more, I was saying that the claim of some that they get it for free isn't true.


 dident think you ment they shouldent pay at all , i agree they should pay and pay a lot more  more than our students ,after all they get a good education over here


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## shawbags (Nov 29, 2010)

At the end of the day foriegners in a lot of cases are treated better than true brits and as for the lib dems go they got in by default and wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance otherwise,so why should we have to accept any of there policies.As i have said before they will always move the goalposts to suite themselves,they are liars and conmen and we accept it like lost sheep.The fact that they say we are vertualy broke and yet give billions away to other countrys as myself and another member have already mentioned  is taking the pi*s ,remember thats the future pensions up the swany and thats why they want us to work until we drop.Our contribution should go to our kids and not to any tom, dick or harry or should i say manuel,abdul or winyun who come over and again take the pi*s, but whos fault is that,the goverment for allowing it.I have worked with foriegners who have told me they will work over hear until they can afford to buy a house in there own country and bugger of home, and buy the way, i was paying my contributions and they were casual and paid none  and they say it with a big cheesey grin on there face,i have known people who lived in a council house now retired and the council refuse to do repair on there home oter paying rent for 32 years, the council then gut the house nexy door,replaster,fit central heating,new carpets,give them a grant and move arabs into the house,then the head of the house tell the retired couple,"i will never have to work again" he was also driving a mobility car that was hes mothers who didn't even live with him,thats greatbritain today.It used to be that people invade and fought to take over our country,now we invite then in,give them a cup of tea and a biscuit and then discuss how much they would like to take out of OUR contributions to OUR country.Anyway i had better stop my rant as i might be arrested for insighting hatred or for at least being a trouble maker,all the best,Shawbags.


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## shawbags (Nov 29, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> It's a shame that such a few rabble get so much attention from the news media. I doubt if many of the real trouble makers actually go to university.
> 
> Getting back to the main point of tution fees, given that a government decides on a budget, you can't pick & mix bits of it to suit your own situation. To me the tuition fees have no interest to me as both my kids are working (one has just finished an apprenticeship, she had to do an extra year on low pay to keep her job or leave. It is not an easy option & in some ways she has had to suffer for 4 years) From my understanding they don't have to pay any money back until they are earning a reasonable wage, many of them will go on to earn large sums of money from the rest of us. I do believe that the fees should be proportional to how useful the job they will be doing when they qualify.
> If people think things like this are bad just wait until the VAT goes up  this will mean everything will go up (even food as the cost of producing & transport will be affected)
> ...


 
Hi there,you will always get the idiots who want to cause trouble and i do believe the lad who threw the fire exstiguisher off the top of the conservative building should spend a little time locked up as punishment,on the other hand the goverment will always do there best to make out that they were a rable and never take any notice of there demands as they have already stated,so what should we do to be heard,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Nov 29, 2010)

Don't want to get in a protracted argument over this but in my view there are lazy brits and hardworking brits as well as lazy foreigners and hardworking foreigners. I prefer to judge people as individuals rather than by nationality.

By the way, and I am not saying this is the case in your example, from my days as a local councillor I can tell you that some people bought their council houses and then still expected the council to do all the maintenance and repairs! And in our council, no foreigner took preference over a brit, whatever the general view might be.


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## shawbags (Nov 29, 2010)

I myself have had alot of involvement with the council and our local councillor over the last 3 years and have seen with my own eyes how foriegners are being looked after over true brits in certain cases,the people that i was taking about are still trying to get double glazing fitted in there house and yet in that time 4 more houses have been refited and 3 now have foriegners living in them.one of the other things is the waste,its unbelievable how many usefull materials are thrown away instead of being taken back to the depot and used at a later date and i am not talking about maybe a piece of timer.I know for a fact the type of things that go on as i know a lot of people who work or have worked for our councils and have on many occasion witnesed situation myself.E.g,nearly a full pack of very exspensive bricks being throw away instead of being taken back to the storage depot,they where crushed by the hiab that lifted them onto the truck.when i put this to our local coucilor he's answer was," these things do happen sometimes" and that was it,end of,these things happen on a regular basis not sometimes,it is easier to allow it to carry on just for an easy life instead of doing there job properly and earning there money.Another example,why is it that there are contractors working for the council when there own skilled labour has no work to do at the cost of the tax payer,again i have known this has gone on for a long time but i am know happy to say that a lot of the contract work has been stoped.
As for using the words foriegner and brit it is a simple way of explaining myself and nothing else,i myself have grown up with people who originaly came from other countrys some good some bad but they all worked and one of the reason i like to travel is because you meet people from all walks of life,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Nov 29, 2010)

By the law of averages, there will always be people who are unfairly treated - sometimes at the expense of foreigners, sometimes at the expense of brits. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but that stupidity, inefficiency, waste and lack of care are not confined to just one group. What you say about waste and contracting out while council workers are lying idle I totally agree with. As for the people who are waiting for their new windows while others get them, ultimately they ought to refer the matter to the local government ombudsman if they cant get satisfaction from the council. There are rules and they need to be enforced if fairness isn't being observed.


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## shawbags (Nov 29, 2010)

john h said:


> by the law of averages, there will always be people who are unfairly treated - sometimes at the expense of foreigners, sometimes at the expense of brits. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but that stupidity, inefficiency, waste and lack of care are not confined to just one group. What you say about waste and contracting out while council workers are lying idle i totally agree with. As for the people who are waiting for their new windows while others get them, ultimately they ought to refer the matter to the local government ombudsman if they cant get satisfaction from the council. There are rules and they need to be enforced if fairness isn't being observed.


 
you would not believe some of the work i have seen caried out by council staff,un bloody believable,i could go on forever.


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## sagart (Dec 8, 2010)

shawbags said:


> true brits,cheers Shawbags.



Seem to remember that this country has been ruled by Norwegians/Romans/French/German/Dutch and Welsh rulers....not including invasion and immigration for more than 2000 years so a true Brit appears to be like a Heinz bottle made up of at least 57 varieties


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## Deleted member 3802 (Dec 8, 2010)

divide and conquer ? the oldest rule in the book never let the differant groups find a common course ? spin doctors and the media lead us by the nose always have and always will,money and finance controls everything and whoever controls that decides every thing else.
1972ish after the winter of discontent the powers that be released money like never before morgages,bank cards ect get the workers used to foreign holidays,new cars on drives teles in every room pay later on the never never,now it's the norm we can't do with out the designer labels ect we have to work what ever sh!te they throw at us


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## Dezi (Dec 8, 2010)

Old_Arthur said:


> divide and conquer ? the oldest rule in the book never let the differant groups find a common course ? spin doctors and the media lead us by the nose always have and always will,money and finance controls everything and whoever controls that decides every thing else.
> 1972ish after the winter of discontent the powers that be released money like never before morgages,bank cards ect get the workers used to foreign holidays,new cars on drives teles in every room pay later on the never never,now it's the norm we can't do with out the designer labels ect we have to work what ever sh!te they throw at us


 
Actually old un there is another way.
Alexander the great had led his victorious, but pi**ed off  army several thousand miles until they reached the banks of the Indus river. At this point a young general said. “Sir there comes a time when even great men need to be satisfied with their achievements & stop. Alexander listened & the army turned towards home.   
This little homily applies to all of us, great or not. If we stop constantly striving. Refused to be induced to work longer for a bigger house, car, t.v.,pension, etc & remained satisfied with what we have then early retirement & real freedom begins. Its called “ getting out of the rat race”
Dezi


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## John H (Dec 8, 2010)

Dezi said:


> Actually old un there is another way.
> Alexander the great had led his victorious, but pi**ed off  army several thousand miles until they reached the banks of the Indus river. At this point a young general said. “Sir there comes a time when even great men need to be satisfied with their achievements & stop. Alexander listened & the army turned towards home.
> This little homily applies to all of us, great or not. If we stop constantly striving. Refused to be induced to work longer for a bigger house, car, t.v.,pension, etc & remained satisfied with what we have then early retirement & real freedom begins. Its called “ getting out of the rat race”
> Dezi


 
True, very true - but since Alexander died shortly after in suspicious circumstances and at the age of 33, perhaps you could think of a more inspiring example????


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## Dezi (Dec 8, 2010)

John H said:


> True, very true - but since Alexander died shortly after in suspicious circumstances and at the age of 33, perhaps you could think of a more inspiring example????


 

au contraire mon ami, The example I used is perfect. 

He knew when to stop - a few weeks later & it would have beem to late.

incidently the "suspicious" has more or less been removed from his death for at least 20 years. 

 Dezi


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## John H (Dec 8, 2010)

Didn't have much of a retirement though, did he?


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## Dezi (Dec 8, 2010)

John H said:


> Didn't have much of a retirement though, did he?


 


I agree, I think it was was sight of a financial advisor coming to discuss his pension plan & what he actually intended to do in his retirement that did for him. 

If only he'd had a motorhome.

Dezi


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## sagart (Dec 9, 2010)

Anyone else ever seen a French Candian film called "The Decline of the American Empire"?
It offers the theory that one sign of the ending of a nation's "status" is when the urge to think of corporate good is replaced by an obsession with personal happiness. This in the sense of what is "right for me".
A couple of local university student activists were asked why those who cannot go to university should fund through taxes those who could and their answer was "it's our right". Some of our lower paid, but still taxpayers, up here were not impressed.


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## shawbags (Dec 9, 2010)

sagart said:


> Seem to remember that this country has been ruled by Norwegians/Romans/French/German/Dutch and Welsh rulers....not including invasion and immigration for more than 2000 years so a true Brit appears to be like a Heinz bottle made up of at least 57 varieties


 
Hi there,We could say that about the whole world because somewhere down the line we are all of mixed race.I'm sure you know what i mean when i say true brits ,its my way of explaining myself,my family aparently originated from scotland many years ago (The Shaw clan) but i class myself as English,not that it matters, cheers Shawbags. P.S do you class yourself as scottish ?.


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## John H (Dec 9, 2010)

sagart said:


> Anyone else ever seen a French Candian film called "The Decline of the American Empire"?
> It offers the theory that one sign of the ending of a nation's "status" is when the urge to think of corporate good is replaced by an obsession with personal happiness. This in the sense of what is "right for me".
> A couple of local university student activists were asked why those who cannot go to university should fund through taxes those who could and their answer was "it's our right". Some of our lower paid, but still taxpayers, up here were not impressed.


 
I don't agree with the "its our right" bit but we all pay for things that we don't use - that is the sign of a civilised society. Childless people pay for schools, well people pay for hospitals, non-car owners pay for the roads, pacifists pay for trident missiles etc etc. That is the way our society is supposed to work and I really feel for students today who are having to pay a fortune at a time they can ill-afford it to get what I think any civilised society should provide as a matter of course. And if anyone thinks they shouldn't pay for the education of others, I would ak them if they've ever needed a doctor.


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## sagart (Dec 10, 2010)

I have to admit to an amount of bias in this. Yes, I went to University (King's College London in the 60's) and got a degree there.
But, I had to fund this myself as my parents could not afford to and I was in the grants trap which existed then.
I was accepted for my course while living in Plymouth, but thanks to my father being re-allocated to Derby I did not apply for a grant until then, about 4 months later.
The result was that Plymouth said "Not our responsibity, you're living in Derby while Derbyshire said, "Not ours, you were accepted by Kings while in Plymouth"
The result was that I went to Rolls Royce in Derby to earn enough to cover my fees.
Friends in the US are totally used to this system and, unless we believe in the altruism of students, it is only those who expect to earn over £21,000 who will have to pay anything back...so, apparently, it's the one who hope to receive the most who are the least willing to repay...


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## John H (Dec 10, 2010)

sagart said:


> it is only those who expect to earn over £21,000 who will have to pay anything back...so, apparently, it's the one who hope to receive the most who are the least willing to repay...


 
Hi

The £21k limit comes in in 2016, by which time it will be worth not much more than the current level due to inflation, so I think this figure was included simply so the LibDems could pretend it isn't as bad as people think it is. 

I went to University in the 1960s and had a similar story to you - my parents moved from London to Berkshire and different authorities argued over who should pay but we eventually got the grant. I also, like everybody else, had summer holiday jobs to help pay my way. The result was that I graduated without debt. My grandchildren will, on the other hand, have to look forward to repaying enormous debts at a time when, presumably, they are thinking of getting married, setting up home and having children - all of which are expensive enough without adding anything else on top. I know there is no easy answer but I cant help feeling angry that they will in all probability have less opportunity to experience what I did - especially if they have the temerity to choose a "useless" subject like history.


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## Dezi (Dec 10, 2010)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> The £21k limit comes in in 2016, by which time it will be worth not much more than the current level due to inflation, so I think this figure was included simply so the LibDems could pretend it isn't as bad as people think it is.
> 
> I went to University in the 1960s and had a similar story to you - my parents moved from London to Berkshire and different authorities argued over who should pay but we eventually got the grant. I also, like everybody else, had summer holiday jobs to help pay my way. The result was that I graduated without debt. My grandchildren will, on the other hand, have to look forward to repaying enormous debts at a time when, presumably, they are thinking of getting married, setting up home and having children - all of which are expensive enough without adding anything else on top. I know there is no easy answer but I cant help feeling angry that they will in all probability have less opportunity to experience what I did - especially if they have the temerity to choose a "useless" subject like history.





Really, As the Spanish philosopher George Santayana once said 
“Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.” in The Life of Reason Vol.1, Reason in common sense 1905-06. 
Possibly if we had more students going down the academic history route & less going the financial one, then we would not be in the present situation. 

Dezi


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## John H (Dec 10, 2010)

Dezi said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Really, As the Spanish philosopher George Santayana once said
> “Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.” in The Life of Reason Vol.1, Reason in common sense 1905-06.
> ...


 
That is precisely my point - the present crop of politicians in power obviously have learned nothing from history and now they want to stop future politicians from doing so.


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## Dezi (Dec 10, 2010)

Hi, So why do you claim it to be a useless subject ? Obviously if we have  not learned 

enough from it " so far" then it becomes even more relevent & we need to study it more. 

Or are you doing a Wittgenstein argument ?

Dezi


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## John H (Dec 10, 2010)

Dezi said:


> Hi, So why do you claim it to be a useless subject ? Obviously if we have  not learned
> 
> enough from it " so far" then it becomes even more relevent & we need to study it more.
> 
> ...


 
No, not changed my mind - the reason i put the word "useless" in quotation marks was because it was not my judgement but the Government's. In their "wisdom" (and those are my quotes!) they have decided to remove more funding from the humanities than from the sciences - which means that ultimately it will cost more to study history than to study physics. Strange world isn't it?


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## coolasluck (Dec 10, 2010)

Theres an old saying as! The world doesnt owe you a living!!" 21k appears a fair amount of a wage before repaying the student loans,why should the tax payer subsidise their careers.
We all have to pay endless rising costs why not them?Lets face it they will probably have designs of pissing off to another country anyhow,where the standard of living is better,whilst we are inundated with migrant workers.


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## John H (Dec 10, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> Theres an old saying as! The world doesnt owe you a living!!" 21k appears a fair amount of a wage before repaying the student loans,why should the tax payer subsidise their careers.
> We all have to pay endless rising costs why not them?Lets face it they will probably have designs of pissing off to another country anyhow,where the standard of living is better,whilst we are inundated with migrant workers.


 
The "they" you talk about are my grandchildren and they will have to face the same rising costs as everybody else. I doubt that they will "piss off" to another country and I doubt that they will expect the world to owe them a living. But I object to a Government full of people who benefitted from the system we went through (or else had enough private funds not to care) denying the same opportunities to future generations. I feel the same when second generation immigrants (such as Michael Portillo) get on the "ban immigrants" bandwagon. I have no time for people who take all they can get and then try to prevent others following them. Unfortunately, we have a government composed almost entirely of those people.


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## David & Ann (Dec 10, 2010)

I have read all the posts, most I agree with. I do abhor what the students (or some say, yobs among the genuine protesters) have done in London. The question is WHY??? My thoughts, that the Politicians created the situation. Perhaps, somewhere along the line, over many years of promises, by all Parties, the people have come to a breaking point, hence the frustration. Of course, there is no excuse for the happenings in London. But I think, it is perfectly understandable for the people to be driven to such situations. The wrath people have, should really be taken upon the Politicians. On TV this afternoon, a Liberal Politician had the audacity to say they had not broken their Pledge, which every Liberal MP signed. I feel, it will not be the end. Come Spring, when the cuts come into force, there will certainly be a lot more frustrated Folks. I would like your thoughts on this. Of course, what I have written is only my opinion.


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 10, 2010)

some of the the action that happend in london yesterday is deplorable, like the attac on the senataph  and also churchills statue . but you can forgive the attacs on government buildings. as david and ann states there will be more of this  ,petrol through the roof ,gas and electric rising ,food on the up just to mention three things ,and then the government cuts will cause mass unemployment .what do they want the common people to do , stand by and take it especialy when they are cutting benefits ,pensions making us work 4 or 5 years extra to get them, there is poverty in this country and there will be even more, and they keep on giving more and more money to other countries in aid what do they expect they deserve all that they get .


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## spatey (Dec 10, 2010)

*Same government*



mandrake said:


> just watched the news about the student rally in london yesterday .our dear leader of this government said he was outraged at the behavior of a minority of students in london yesterday ,and said "there were not enough police on duty there" how is he going to explain the lack of police when the cuts in the police budget leaves even less officers on the streets   gun.. foot shot in the... comes to mind


 
Same government wishing to do the same thing F- - K it up for everyone else, just ask the miners now ???


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 10, 2010)

there is not a lot to choose realy between any party ,but the tories realy know how to screw things up .you only have to look at there past record  sell everything they can social housing ,north sea oil are but two  and what they cannot sell close, mines proffatable parts of british steel and the majority of our manufacturing ability  mind you the miners that was personal because we were about the only union that would not take the crap. mind you its suprising now how many old ex miners say maggie was the best thing that happend to the mines  no man aught to have had to work in those sort of conditions i probebly wouldent have been as i am now, and a few of my old freinds may still have been alive now if it wasent for those bloody holes in the ground


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> Theres an old saying as! The world doesnt owe you a living!!" 21k appears a fair amount of a wage before repaying the student loans,why should the tax payer subsidise their careers.
> We all have to pay endless rising costs why not them?Lets face it they will probably have designs of pissing off to another country anyhow,where the standard of living is better,whilst we are inundated with migrant workers.


 
Hi there,the tax payers subsadise most of the imigrants coming into the country so we should give our own less fortunate people the ability to progress not stop them in there tracks and why should our standard of living be so crap that young people should be thinking of living in other countrys because the standard of living is better.I was earning the same money 15 years ago if not better money than i could get today for the same job,WHY !,this country is going backwards and our government are glad to fill the country with people who will work for a pittents because we won't.without the little man working for next to nothing the big man could not thrive as they do,if the lower classed earned enough to live the good life more of us would work less hours and retire earlier, therefore leaving the big boss with less money,now that just wouldn't do would it . Our government like many others are liers,thieves and hipocrits and it will never change.


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## Dezi (Dec 11, 2010)

John H said:


> The "they" you talk about are my grandchildren and they will have to face the same rising costs as everybody else. I doubt that they will "piss off" to another country and I doubt that they will expect the world to owe them a living. But I object to a Government full of people who benefitted from the system we went through (or else had enough private funds not to care) denying the same opportunities to future generations. I feel the same when second generation immigrants (such as Michael Portillo) get on the "ban immigrants" bandwagon. I have no time for people who take all they can get and then try to prevent others following them. Unfortunately, we have a government composed almost entirely of those people.


 
I agree with most of the above, but I have a moot point to raise. 

My eldest granddaughter is currently at De Montfort University, so will be free of the system before this act comes in. My eldest grandson is due to go to university in about 18 month’s time, followed (hopefully) by the twins in about 5 years time. As they live in Scotland they will not Pay.
 So we will have English students paying £9,000 per year. The Welsh about a third of that & the Scots nowt ? We are three separate Countries, but are also a United Kingdom & fully recognised as such under all international law. As such I cannot believe that this discrimination against one part of that union,the English students, does not break at least one European law.  

Dezi


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## John H (Dec 11, 2010)

Dezi said:


> I agree with most of the above, but I have a moot point to raise.
> 
> My eldest granddaughter is currently at De Montfort University, so will be free of the system before this act comes in. My eldest grandson is due to go to university in about 18 month’s time, followed (hopefully) by the twins in about 5 years time. As they live in Scotland they will not Pay.
> So we will have English students paying £9,000 per year. The Welsh about a third of that & the Scots nowt ? We are three separate Countries, but are also a United Kingdom & fully recognised as such under all international law. As such I cannot believe that this discrimination against one part of that union,the English students, does not break at least one European law.
> ...


 
Since there isn't a rule that all European countries have to have similar charging policies then I doubt that this could be true. Our country is, in effect, a federation (like others within the EU) and even before devolution it was true that Scotland, for example, had a different legal system. It does, however, show the value of getting your grandchildren born north of the border!


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## coolasluck (Dec 11, 2010)

a bit like the scots having a more transparent and simplified way of buying property,and looking after their elderly without them having to sell their own homes,i think i would move up there if it were not for the weather.!!
I was disgusted with what happened this week in London,the cenotaph and the filth clambering all over the monument and defecating,it seems that for some its just a good excuse for causing trouble.******s.
To behave like that at a war memorial sums up for me just how low this pond life can go to.
I feel sorry for those who were trying to peacefully protest.
But at the end of the day its the tax payers who have to clean up the mess afterwards,as usual and more innocent protests and a green light for trouble makers are due next week .


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 11, 2010)

the yobo that was filmed up the senataph has apologised and guess what, as he is the son of a pop star just forget which at this moment,and he was as high as a kite aswell. but the law aint gona do anything to him because he has a well to doo dad  one law for one


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

John H said:


> Since there isn't a rule that all European countries have to have similar charging policies then I doubt that this could be true. Our country is, in effect, a federation (like others within the EU) and even before devolution it was true that Scotland, for example, had a different legal system. It does, however, show the value of getting your grandchildren born north of the border!


 
The idea of having your grandchildren born up north is exactly what the governments want,to move you from your routes and mix everyone up so we have no feeling of unity,as arther has said "divide and conquer",this may seem a little extreme but its happening,shawbags.


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## Dezi (Dec 11, 2010)

shawbags said:


> The idea of having your grandchildren born up north is exactly what the governments want,to move you from your routes and mix everyone up so we have no feeling of unity,as arther has said "divide and conquer",this may seem a little extreme but its happening,shawbags.


 

I hate to intrude upon your conspiracy theories, but the reason my grandchildren are in Scotland
Is because my son in law was head hunted from Basingstoke 5 years ago by an energy company.

Dezi


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> a bit like the scots having a more transparent and simplified way of buying property,and looking after their elderly without them having to sell their own homes,i think i would move up there if it were not for the weather.!!
> I was disgusted with what happened this week in London,the cenotaph and the filth clambering all over the monument and defecating,it seems that for some its just a good excuse for causing trouble.******s.
> To behave like that at a war memorial sums up for me just how low this pond life can go to.
> I feel sorry for those who were trying to peacefully protest.
> But at the end of the day its the tax payers who have to clean up the mess afterwards,as usual and more innocent protests and a green light for trouble makers are due next week .


 
As for defecating on a monument it just goes to show the level of inteligents that some of the protesters have,if they have been arrested before the police could find them through the DNA,not a very nice thought i know but true.If they were found they should make them shovel sh*t for 6 months,shawbags.


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

As said,why is it that the scotts pay nothing,the welsh pay a third and english pay the full amount for uni it doesn't make sense and it goes to show how willing the government is to blatently take the P*ss yet again out of the english,shawbags.


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 11, 2010)

shawbags said:


> As said,why is it that the scotts pay nothing,the welsh pay a third and english pay the full amount for uni it doesn't make sense and it goes to show how willing the government is to blatently take the P*ss yet again out of the english,shawbags.


 
mabey because all funding comes from westminster, someone has to pay for it all


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## John H (Dec 11, 2010)

shawbags said:


> The idea of having your grandchildren born up north is exactly what the governments want,to move you from your routes and mix everyone up so we have no feeling of unity,as arther has said "divide and conquer",this may seem a little extreme but its happening,shawbags.


 
I can think of nothing that would make me vote Tory but not even I can see what the hell you are getting at here!


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

what i,m getting at is the fact that the whole world is being mixed up,e.g ,in america the borders will be coming down and canada,america and mexico will become one big country without the vote of the people so maybe giving people the reason to move up north to get there kids a free education is another move to mix us up,i did say maybe,i do apolagise if i have rattled you cage a little,Shawbags free man on the land .


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

mandrake said:


> mabey because all funding comes from westminster, someone has to pay for it all


 
What ever the cost may be and where ever the money comes from it should be the same costing system for everyone,its beyond me how they work it out and how is it that we are a united kingdom,load of b*ll*cks,shawbags.


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 11, 2010)

shawbags said:


> What ever the cost may be and where ever the money comes from it should be the same costing system for everyone,its beyond me how they work it out and how is it that we are a united kingdom,load of b*ll*cks,shawbags.


 as for the same costing system the way i see it is ,westminster decides how much the welsh assembly gets, and how much the scottish parliament gets a year then they are responsable how it is spent .if the scottish parliament decide students dont have to pay and the wesh assy only charge one third of what england charge then there is somthing amiss in england .someone aint doing there job right. i wonder who it is or are we being conned


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## shawbags (Dec 11, 2010)

We are all being stitched up like a kipper,god only knows how our grandchildren will get on.


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 11, 2010)

shawbags said:


> We are all being stitched up like a kipper,god only knows how our grandchildren will get on.


 
probably a darn sight better than us ,as they have learned not to take everything as we do .when we were young we were told to shut up and accept what we had and be gratefull ,this generation are totaly different they know what they want and are willing to go and get it .good luck to them


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## shawbags (Dec 12, 2010)

I agree but unless they get a little extreme no one takes any notice,i would not condone violence but maybe if they did similar things as the french and blocked the ferry ports ( unless i'm waiting for a ferry that is) to slow the economy down a little people might sit up and think,shawbags.


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## Deleted member 3802 (Dec 12, 2010)

it would never happen thats not the ENGLISH way we talk talk and talk then take it up the trumper ?they as in they? know we will not get upset by anything that does not affect us personally if they put a tax on silver cars no one except silver car owners would object! oh and a few anarchists,racists and trouble causers?
what % of people ever vote or go to the parish council meetings or any other meeting, unless that wind turbine is in their view?anywhere else it's ok THATS the ENGLISH way.
we as a collective we are to blame for our troubles.
p.s. did you know most tv licence dodgers are caught while watching Jeremy kyle or Tricia on day time tele not in an evening like it used to be ?? wonder why that is then


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## John H (Dec 12, 2010)

shawbags said:


> what i,m getting at is the fact that the whole world is being mixed up,e.g ,in america the borders will be coming down and canada,america and mexico will become one big country without the vote of the people so maybe giving people the reason to move up north to get there kids a free education is another move to mix us up,i did say maybe,i do apolagise if i have rattled you cage a little,Shawbags free man on the land .


 
Can't see why "mixing us up" would achieve anything (especially in this day and age, when people in New Zealand can instantly correspond with people in Canada etc). What they are more interested in is keeping us down, wherever we live. And Arthur has got it right - WE collectively are responsible for it all - we elected them. The Scots Parliament believes that free education is a high priority; the UK Parliament (that is effectively the English government) doesn't. Students have every right to feel aggrieved because the people they voted for had signed a pledge that they then broke. I don't condone violence but I can understand the frustration that led to it. And unless we all stand up and say its wrong (as we did against poll tax) then they will go on riding roughshod over all of us. We all need to support the students or nobody will support us when we need it. I am not advocating revolution (maybe I should) but the kind of mass resistance that brought the poll tax to an end is the way to go. Unfortunately, unless there are exceptional circumstances, the English don't do this - they just sit and moan.   

Cage unrattled and I'm sorry to hear of your FMOTL affliction - I hope it gets better soon!


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## shawbags (Dec 12, 2010)

There is a lot of truth in the last two comments,if it doesn't effect us directly with close our doors and put our feet up.In the past i personaly have always stood up for myself and in many cases other people too but when the the going gets a little tough you end up being the last man standing and then you are marked as a trouble maker,its time we all stood firm TOGETHER until we get results that are good for us and more importantly our children and granchildren.
 As for why would they mix us up i would of thought that was obviouse,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Dec 12, 2010)

shawbags said:


> As for why would they mix us up i would of thought that was obviouse,cheers Shawbags.


 
Sorry - still don't get it. But I think the conspiracy theory mentality of those "freemen" of yours might be taking over a bit here!


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## shawbags (Dec 12, 2010)

I think you do get it,as for being able to comunicate to people all over the world some governments are allready talking about puting restrictions on the internet (restricting freedom of speach) because through the internet people are becoming more aware of how wrongly they are being treated,e.g Truthjuice,TPUC,EDL,Wikileaks,ect ect ect,Oh sorry i must not forget Mr ickes,these are just a few examples and lets face it we can't believe anything the mainstream media tells us now can we.As for the FMOTL taking over a little,a lot of original posts can end in a discusion about entirely different subjects and that interests me a lot,I read,look,listen and discuss and make my own mind up on all subjects and can asure you never trail along like a lost sheep,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Dec 12, 2010)

shawbags said:


> I think you do get it,as for being able to comunicate to people all over the world some governments are allready talking about puting restrictions on the internet (restricting freedom of speach) because through the internet people are becoming more aware of how wrongly they are being treated,e.g Truthjuice,TPUC,EDL,Wikileaks,ect ect ect,Oh sorry i must not forget Mr ickes,these are just a few examples and lets face it we can't believe anything the mainstream media tells us now can we.As for the FMOTL taking over a little,a lot of original posts can end in a discusion about entirely different subjects and that interests me a lot,I read,look,listen and discuss and make my own mind up on all subjects and can asure you never trail along like a lost sheep,cheers Shawbags.


 
Yup, I was right, the conspiracy theory is alive and well, so let's feed it - at least one of the people posting here is a government spy and he knows where you live!!


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## shawbags (Dec 12, 2010)

John H said:


> Yup, I was right, the conspiracy theory is alive and well, so let's feed it - at least one of the people posting here is a government spy and he knows where you live!!


 
Its funny you say that because there has been a strange man walking his dog in our street recently and the dog always seems to be staring at my house and on a few occasions he has used my van as a p*ssing post giving him a better view into my living room,dam that mut!.On a brighter note my chicken coop underground hideout is nearly ready and there is no way they will find me then .


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## John H (Dec 12, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Its funny you say that because there has been a strange man walking his dog in our street recently and the dog always seems to be staring at my house and on a few occasions he has used my van as a p*ssing post giving him a better view into my living room,dam that mut!.On a brighter note my chicken coop underground hideout is nearly ready and there is no way they will find me then .


 

Take a closer look at that dog - he, he, he.............


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 12, 2010)

yes keep an eye on the dog ....remember the one in men in black


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## coolasluck (Dec 12, 2010)

Grow up Mandrake be serious man!


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 12, 2010)

yes boss


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