# Cornwall Council Parking



## witzend (Nov 19, 2014)

Yesterday I read that Cornwall council car parks are losing money so charges will have to be raised. I suggested allowing motor homes to overnight for a modest fee would help raise some funds and it's a opportunity their missing.

 One reply suggested my timing was good they are discussing parking at a meeting tonight so if any one has a few minutes to spare to send a email I know Bert Biscoe and Fiona Ferguson are two that will be attending also Roy Taylor 

https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1


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## wildman (Nov 19, 2014)

Cornwall have made their feelings towards motorhomers in general well known. I doubt that they will even consider it. We have only been there once this year and got turned away, usually visit several times a year. There are other more accomodating counties.


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## Sharon the Cat (Nov 19, 2014)

wildman said:


> Cornwall have made their feelings towards motorhomers in general well known. I doubt that they will even consider it. We have only been there once this year and got turned away, usually visit several times a year. There are other more accomodating counties.



No harm in trying.


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## wildman (Nov 19, 2014)

Sharon the Cat said:


> No harm in trying.


Oh I quite agree.


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## witzend (Nov 19, 2014)

wildman said:


> Cornwall have made their feelings towards motorhomers in general well known. I doubt that they will even consider it. We have only been there once this year and got turned away, usually visit several times a year. There are other more accomodating counties.



I totally agree with this post and living here I don't need to use my van here but while others do I though it may be a idea if other people could get the council to see how unwelcoming they appear to people visiting from the UK & Europe. this was a reply I've received from
Cllr Edwina Hannaford
Cornwall Councillor Looe West, Lansallos and Lanteglos

This is an issue in my division which is the seaside resort of Looe.
Locally we are against camper vans parking from 2 perspectives. Economically - allowing them to park in council car parks undermines the local economy which is dominated by camp sites and there are also issues of public health. Some camper vans who have parked in car parks have emptied waste into the river and leave rubbish.


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## Mullsy (Nov 19, 2014)

Dominated by campsites....what the Councillor doesn't seem to realise is,if there is nowhere to park,I will move on,I wont suddenly decide to book into a campsite so the owners have actually lost nothing.The people and businesses like the shops and pub have lost out because I wont be going for a drink and a meal ect ect .Turning away business because the camp site owners aren't getting their slice of the pie seems a bit short sighted.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 19, 2014)

Last year Cornwall County Council published a document "Making parking a Business".   They discussed making each car park into a private company which would have to show a profit or be closed.   

That was last years thinking.  I wonder what tonight's meeting is actually about?


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## moggy (Nov 19, 2014)

*cornwall*

keep cornwall france every time for me


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## witzend (Nov 19, 2014)

moggy said:


> keep cornwall france every time for me



I totally agree with this in 500 days away with motor home in the last 3 years 5 days where spent in the UK and 2 of those where waiting for a ferry.


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## antiquesam (Nov 19, 2014)

Even without taking the van to Cornwall I have always felt while staying in the County that they would be happier if I just posted my money and and didn't bother disturbing them by coming with it.


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## SteveM (Nov 19, 2014)

As with the majority of car parks in Cornwall, Pentire Head in Newquay is closed off to campervans overnight, yet there has been a mini encampment of vans parked legally just outside the entrance for the majority of the summer.  At the car park at Little Fistral, drive through the small bollards and you are in an area where you don't have to pay! If Cornwall Council are indeed 'making a business' out of parking they are missing a trick. 

In my view the overnight campervan issue has been bought about by one or more campsite owners, if you complain enough or know the right councillor wheels can move. I know of a campervan owner who lives on the Pentire Rd whose van was parked perfectly legally until literally overnight a sign saying nothing other than cars to be parked overnight appeared and an enforcement officer ticketed her at 0905 the next morning. The hotel she was parked outside had complained about the van a number of times. I checked the local TRO's and could find nothing, I hope she challenged the ticket and didn't pay.

The council will no doubt put up the car parking prices, I've noted first hand the arrogance of some of its members in that 'this is Cornwall, they will come and they will pay'. This would be a little bit acceptable if the revenue raised was used to improve the lot of the resident population, sadly though there isn't much evidence of that either.


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## Borderland (Nov 19, 2014)

Thank for the advice about parking in Cornwall. I am new to wild camping and will certainly give the area a miss and go to places, such as Scotland, where I will feel welcome.


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## SteveM (Nov 19, 2014)

No FOI request needed. A quick google links to the Council website 8 million from parking income 14.3 million out for roads maintenance.

I refuse to pay for my parking so I'm not the one being screwed and clearly with the way the charges are set and the restrictions put in place the target is the tourist and until they vote with their feet in sufficient numbers it isn't going to change.


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## Val54 (Nov 19, 2014)

The continuing decline in the state of our highway network due to higher traffic levels and a policy of make do and mend rather than reconstructing failing road surfaces to base course means an ever increasing bill for road maintenance that is not being picked up by pro data increases in central government funding. Consequently all councils tend to use their parking revenues to subsidise road maintenance, street lighting, traffic calming and other road safety measures. The High Court ruling in 2013 spelt out that they are not allowed to levy higher parking charges to subsidise other services such as housing or social care.
Dave


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## Debs (Nov 19, 2014)

Car parks should be left clear at night, so that the car park tarmac can have a sleep after working hard all day holding all those cars up. Ooh, my nurses have just said I can have five more minutes before they fasten me up in bed, so I better finish my strange tasting cocoa. Night all.:lol-053:


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## GWAYGWAY (Nov 19, 2014)

I think there should be a careful correlation of Councillors  names and those of local campsites owners, then maybe vested interest might show a tiny bit of bias on their part in the decision making. They might no actually be owners but might be very good friends with some.
Perhaps I am just cynical.


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## witzend (Nov 19, 2014)

Tonight I've received these 7 positive replies 

Thank you for your email. I have already been raising this with the Car Parks department at the council – I have identified some car parks where this would be practical and profitable for the council. I will raise this again you make a number of further pertinent points which I feel would add weight to this.


I will again write to car parks and renew efforts – I think across Cornwall we could be creating spaces for Motorhomes in car parks – only the other day I saw a German motorhome go in and straight out of car park due to insufficient space – income we could have generated for the people of Cornwall

Thank you for your email. I am inclined to agree with you, we should be doing more to attract motor homes in Cornwall, they are very important to the tourist industry.

 don't have a motor home, but I go to France and Europe several times a year and I agree with you and what you suggest in your email about motor homes.
Unfortunately I am only one councillor, but I will copy your email to Bert Biscoe who is in charge and responsible for all our car parks.

 think you are quite right here – I’ve been arguing for years that we could do something like that (locally in Newquay in our Tregunnel Car Park) but our car park administrators are not keen.I will pass your email on – and continue pushing for this.     I am not promising any immediate reaction but if we keep at it, I am  hopeful we will get there

 I have considerable sympathy with the Issue you highlight in your letter, possibly because I am a touring caravanner ! As you probably know one of the problems we have had with carparks is the hijacking of spaces by travellers and some foreign visitors who will not pay fees. I remember this issue being discussed at the last administrations car parking panel. If I remember rightly it was agreed not to provide the spaces for several reasons including the loss of the smaller normal spaces but especially because of the traveller issue. If a traveller decides to stay put then it becomes a court order business .
However having said all that I will remain sympathetic to the aim and if possible I will encourage the provision of spaces for motorhomes

Thank you for your email, totally agree with your comments, however it will at the end of the day be up to the Portfolio Holder


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## SteveM (Nov 19, 2014)

witzend said:


> Tonight I've received these 6 positive replies
> 
> Thank you for your email. I have already been raising this with the Car Parks department at the council – I have identified some car parks where this would be practical and profitable for the council. I will raise this again you make a number of further pertinent points which I feel would add weight to this.
> 
> ...



Good effort, who are the 6 that replied?

The traveller issue is a bit of a smokescreen in my opinion, if they are going to rock up, they are going to rock up, signs saying no parking won't be an issue. Besides it's not too difficult to workout a one or two night stay in every seven for example.


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## witzend (Nov 21, 2014)

*Negative*

Please be careful when choosing where to empty your waste as this is the second reply I've received which mentions this problem.

My family operate a camp site with hard standing with electric hookup open all year, so I have an interest in this!
I do not think there is a shortage of sites that are open all year
If you stay all week in various Cornwall Council car parks, where do you empty your chemical toilet?
Also would not some with less modern camper vans use small generators which disturb local residents?
There have been instances of motor homes parking at Hannafore, West Looe, emptying their chemical toilets into the road gullies. Whilst it is obviously not something which you or other responsible motor home owners would condone, it does take place, and is difficult to police.
I hope this explains whilst I will not be supporting this

Jim Candy CC
Cornwall Councillor for Trelawny
01503 250376
jcandy@cornwall.gov.uk


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## witzend (Nov 21, 2014)

Mario Fonk, Derek Holley,  Nigel Pearce, Joanna Kenny, Loveday Jenkin, 
Loic Rich were in favour  two against where Edwina Hannaford and Jim Candy

Today sun 23rd one more positive 
Thank you for your email, totally agree with your comments, however it will at the end of the day be up to the Portfolio Holder

Kindest regards

Mary May


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## Debs (Nov 22, 2014)

A camp site owner who is also a councilor, a combination well known for being against wild campers, and I think we all know why, nuff said.


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## Tbear (Nov 22, 2014)

Debs said:


> A camp site owner who is also a councilor, a combination well known for being against wild campers, and I think we all know why, nuff said.



Yes but he has clearly declared his interest and set out a reasoned augment. has anyone suggested to him that they make a sewer cover liftable to cure the problem? We have to be polite and reasonable with councilors that are prepared to talk to us. There are already enough that claim our emails where filtered by Spam filters so they don't receive them.

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 22, 2014)

Just sent him the following email. May be a bit late but may influence further discussion.

My family operate a camp site with hard standing with electric hookup open all year, so I have an interest in this!
I do not think there is a shortage of sites that are open all year
If you stay all week in various Cornwall Council car parks, where do you empty your chemical toilet?
Also would not some with less modern camper vans use small generators which disturb local residents?
There have been instances of motor homes parking at Hannafore, West Looe, emptying their chemical toilets into the road gullies. Whilst it is obviously not something which you or other responsible motor home owners would condone, it does take place, and is difficult to police.
I hope this explains whilst I will not be supporting this

Dear Councilor Candy,

The above Email was published on the wildcamping.co.uk website and I as a Motorhomer have to respect what you say. However if you where a Motorhomer with a wife and two daughters sat red faced with their legs crossed glaring at you. You may be driven to desperate means. I in no way condone the actions of the motorhomers you mention. I have never emptied my cassette in such a manner. I am merely trying to set a scene. If the council was to put a hinge and a handle on a sewage cover near to where motorhomes park. That Motorhomer would be very popular with his family and the council would not be left with a stinking mess. This need not be a free service as it could be covered by parking charges. If it had a stand pipe as well it and the carpark would be very popular in and out of the main season. It could be a facility only offered in the low season in some busy carparks. This would attract more tourists as motorhomers are more year rounders than day trippers and campers.

I do appreciate that the campsites have to earn their money in a short space of time. Motorhomers spend a lot of money on their motorhome so that they do not need to stay on sites so if you try and force them into it, they will go elsewhere and may take some of the folk that are happy to stay on site with them. I have only a relatively small motorhome so tend to stay on a small site for a night about twice a week to have a nice shower and flush and replenish my tanks. The going rate for this is about £12.00 in a quiet out of the way site. The Camping and Caravan Club (C&CC) charge about £7.50 if you do it all in a couple of hours. Aires in Europe are free to about 20 Euros. Surely the campsites and/or council can tap into this income.

We used to bring our children to SW most years to spend a week or two camping. They grew up and we bought a Motorhome and continued to come up until one year the site that we used to stay at (Broadleigh Farm) where full up. We used to stay with them as part of C&CC temporary holiday site which cost about £12.00 a night. We managed to find an alternative site for about £20.00 but many where asking £50.00 or more. We have only been back once since and only stayed for three or four days. With the present system I doubt we will be back for more than a single night to visit some one. This is a great shame as I retire next year and we are upgrading the motorhome so we stay in it for longer periods in comfort. A week or two walking on the north coast of Devon and Cornwall would make me a very happy man but not at £50.00 a night.


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## witzend (Nov 22, 2014)

*Reply*



Tbear said:


> has anyone suggested to him that they make a sewer cover liftable to cure the problem? We have to be polite and reasonable with councilors that are prepared to talk to us. Richard



Yes my reply ;- 

Thank you for your reply and I fully understand your point of view but I  hope with a declared interest you'd not be voting on this or influencing other councillors. 

The problem is not the availability of campsites but the cost of them, no-one wants to pay for facilities they neither need or use, do you offer reduced rates or seperate parking areas for guests who do not require full use of your site facilities? which is basically what I am suggesting  for the council to provide and benefit from instead of private enterprise. What I am suggesting is the continental Aire or Stellaplatz style of parking to bring in futher revenue for the county to work in conjunction with existing sites, it offers more choice for visitors and would bring in more business which would normally be going either to other motorhome friendly areas or abroad. It would also make more use (overnighting) of spaces which are currently underused

While some may wish to run generators this is easily stopped by signage although most now are using solar power as generators are very expensive to purchase and run. Also anywhere you get 3 or 4 motorhomes together you will find that only in exceptional circumstance anyone will run a generator and on the continent they are not allowed to be used on registered aires.

As for disposing of waste there are several caravan sites listed that are quite happy to allow this operation for a small fee.

I find it funny that 2 councilors replied with the mention of Chemical toilets being emptied into road gullies  at Hannaford,  good job its not more than the one isolated instance, this sort of occurance could be easily remedied by installing a chemical empting point in one of the local car parks with a few parking places for motor homes therby stopping unpleasant incidents and providing extra revenue. I appreciate that incidents like you mention do occur but this type of person would not use a campsite but may use a cheaper option if it was available


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## Tbear (Nov 22, 2014)

Well that's two of us that bothered. How many on this site ???

Richard


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## witzend (Nov 28, 2014)

*Councils Reply*



Tbear said:


> Well that's two of us that bothered. How many on this site ???
> 
> Richard



Well we could be alone but I got this reply this morning from Bert Biscoe head of Council Parking


Truro
27th November 2014

I'm sorry to have delayed in replying. I saw a draft letter today and have now decided to convene a discussion with officers to review the current council policy. I don't know what will come of it but I have heard from several motor homers and I think the council ought to re-look at its position. I hope to achieve this quickly and will ensure that you are informed of the outcome.

Best wishes
B


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## Tbear (Nov 28, 2014)

witzend said:


> Well we could be alone but I got this reply this morning from Bert Biscoe head of Council Parking
> 
> 
> Truro
> ...



No Reply to mine as yet but  it sounds like you are talking to someone with an open mind.

Richard


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## Deleted member 19733 (Nov 28, 2014)

*Late comer*

Sadly, as there has been so much negativity about motorhoming in Cornwall, we switched off some time ago reading those threads, until today, wish we read them earlier. Anyway, it may be late, but we sent an email to Mr Candy, copy below, hope it may have some influence wit the council, you never know.


Dear Mr Candy



We are writing to you to see if you and your colleagues could be influenced in changing your views about welcoming motor homers in Cornwall.



We are a retired couple and used to visit Cornwall several times a year, spending at least £1000 per visit, but in recent times we stopped coming because of all the negativity and restrictions.



Whilst we understand the reasoning behind the clampdown, it does alienate people like us from visiting, we have seen evidence of rubbish etc left by others and we do clear up after them when possible.



As members of the Caravan Club, we normally visit a CL once a week for a service visit; empty loo, grey water, top up with water etc, but the rest of the time we prefer to be off sites.



We have a large, modern, totally self sufficient motorhome, so we tend to spend our money on shopping, dining and entertainment, rather than stay at the £30/40/50 a night campsites.



Our preference is to seek out places to stop, which have great scenery and wildlife, peaceful and quiet, we normally stop one, occasionally two nights in the wild then move on, making sure we don not leave any rubbish/ detritus behind.



So we tend to visit the places where we know we are genuinely welcome, such as Scotland, Wales, France (where great facilities are provided for the motor homers) etc. 



We are members of the Wildcamping forum with over 10000 members and we are sure that we are not alone with this view.



We would love to resume visiting Cornwall but not until we are sure that we are made welcome.



Kindest regards


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## Tbear (Nov 28, 2014)

Hi Loulou,

If 10% of members sent an email like that we would be on a winner.

Richard


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## witzend (Nov 28, 2014)

Tbear said:


> Hi Loulou,
> 
> If 10% of members sent an email like that we would be on a winner.
> 
> Richard



Although Councilor Candy has made his position clear and declared a interest by his family owning a camp site so should not be involved in any decision. Might I suggest a email to some of the other councilors 

https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1

Mario Fonk, Derek Holley, Nigel Pearce, Joanna Kenny, Loveday Jenkin, 
Loic Rich, Mary May gave favourable replys and Bert Biscoe is the Councilor responsible for carparks


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## Tbear (Nov 28, 2014)

witzend said:


> Although Councilor Candy has made his position clear and declared a interest by his family owning a camp site so should not be involved in any decision. Might I suggest a email to some of the other councilors
> 
> https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
> 
> ...



Councilor Candy may not take part in the formal debate and vote but I am sure that there will be a lot of informal discussion (or at least I hope so) which he will take part in but I take your point and will do as you suggest. 

Richard


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## Deleted member 967 (Dec 2, 2014)

Received this from Bert Biscoe head of Council Parking this morning 

Truro
1st December 2014

Dear Mr Thompson,

I am in the process of convening a discussion of the Council's present policy. I have no preconceptions about the outcome and I would strongly caution against optimism. Thank you for the materials you have sent me which are very helpful. If more information is needed I will contact you.
Best wishes
B


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## Debs (Dec 2, 2014)

John Thompson said:


> Received this from Bert Biscoe head of Council Parking this morning
> 
> Truro
> 1st December 2014
> ...



" I would strongly caution against optimism " that's open mindedness....I don't think.:rulez:


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## n brown (Dec 2, 2014)

he has no preconceptions but don't raise your hopes ?


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## molly 2 (Dec 2, 2014)

Just accept they don't want motorhomes or our money. Even if you go on a site you can't park of site.


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## Robmac (Dec 2, 2014)

It's a bit like the judge dusting off his black cap before the jury have delivered their verdict!


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## witzend (Dec 2, 2014)

molly 2 said:


> Just accept they don't want motorhomes or our money. Even if you go on a site you can't park of site.



Can't but agree with this statement but it's the ordinary rate payer in Cornwall that is loosing out by the council not taking advantage of the extra money that overnight / day motor home parking could generate.


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## Val54 (Dec 2, 2014)

witzend said:


> Can't but agree with this statement but it's the ordinary rate payer in Cornwall that is loosing out by the council not taking advantage of the extra money that overnight / day motor home parking could generate.



Interestingly he uses the word "discussion" rather than "review" so I guess he knows that other Councillors and perhaps officers will find 1001 reasons not to do anything to change matters. Still at least it is being discussed and who knows they may try an experimental site somewhere. At the end of the day Witzend is right the overriding argument will be whether those making a decision perceive it as a sufficient cash generator for the Council coffers against the vested interests that will shout louder.
Dave


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## Deleted member 967 (Dec 3, 2014)

molly-2   There is plenty of day time parking in Cornwall.  As a result of FOI request the information is available on TMCTO website parking map.  http://www.tmcto.org/index.php/comp...der=Newest&Modid=150-search-gmapfp&Itemid=242  This returns 102 places where day parking is available.  The other car parks are to small.

The council only ban overnight parking of Motorhomes in 17 of its over 200 car parks.  They do however allow HGVs, Coaches and Caravans (unoccupied) to park overnight or until 00:30, but Motorhomes/campervans or any vehicle equipped for sleeping are banned from those same car parks even if unoccupied overnight.


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## antiquesam (Dec 3, 2014)

What ever made you think that?


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## Tbear (Dec 4, 2014)

Got this today.

Truro
3rd December 2014

Dear Mr XXXX
Forgive me but I have slipped behind the flow of mails, hence the delay in responding. Thanks for your mail. As you probably know I am convening an internal meeting at Cornwall Council to review the policy on motorhomes. I don't know what the outcome will be and I would advise pragmatic caution. The level of correspondence is low but consistent, and we have not looked at the policy for some time.

I do hope you enjoy your retirement and that we will see you walking in Cornwall is at all possible.
Best wishes
Bert Biscoe

At least its not negative.

Richard


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## witzend (Dec 4, 2014)

Tbear said:


> The level of correspondence is low but consistent, and we have not looked at the policy for some time.Bert Biscoe[/COLOR]



Lets get the level of correspondence  sent to the council up a bit.

Would contacting the local paper help see what the people paying to park think


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## Deleted member 19733 (Dec 4, 2014)

witzend said:


> Although Councilor Candy has made his position clear and declared a interest by his family owning a camp site so should not be involved in any decision. Might I suggest a email to some of the other councilors
> 
> https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
> 
> ...



Hi, I know its a bit late, my wife is in hospital, but today I have copied all the above councillors with our email dated 29th November. We live in hope to get a response, nothing yet so far.

Keep you chins up Lou

:cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## Tbear (Dec 4, 2014)

witzend said:


> Lets get the level of correspondence  sent to the council up a bit.
> 
> Would contacting the local paper help see what the people paying to park think



If the local paper gets to take credit for "It's" campaign to increase tourism and produce income from unused carpark, then maybe. After all we still benefit.

Richard


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## witzend (Dec 4, 2014)

*To Editor West Briton*

To Jacqui Walls Editor West Briton today

I wonder what your readers think of the idea put forward to Cornwall County Council to help raise additional revenue by allowing motorhomes to park in selected car parks and Park and Ride sites overnight. I have had correspondence with a number of Councillors on the matter some in favour some against. The idea suggested is for the council to provide some continental style sites at a moderate charge specifically for the use of motorhomes NOT caravans. Ideally these sites would be in car parks which otherwise would be left empty for large periods of time, possibly but not essentially with toilet emptying facilities.

Modern motorhomes are totally self-contained and only need to have access to waste disposal facilities and water every few days and the majority now use either solar or modern leisure batteries, instead of generators, for power and so do not need to be on fully serviced sites such as caravans require. Many people do not visit Cornwall due to the cost of staying on serviced sites where they do not make use of the full facilities as they only need overnight parking. A number of caravan sites do allow the use of the water and waste services for a small charge to non residents which is sufficient for motorhome needs.

On the continent they run a system called Aires or Stellaplatz where most communities provide overnight parking for a limited number of motorhomes some at a charge, some free, some with services some without. The basic rules being that these are parking NOT camping areas  with normally 24 or 48 hour time limits and no use of generators, BBQ's or awnings. These work well, are very popular and in the main self policed by the people using them. 

Amongst the  reasons given for not providing parking off commercial sites are the problems experienced with travelers in previous years and the fact that they would use these spaces. It is highly unlikely that travelers would use any form of parking which was charged for or regulated. Another being the cost of policing extra use of parking areas, again there should be no additional charges involved, especially as most car parks are pay and display and they are checked regularly during the day anyway, in fact quite the opposite as by having responsible motorhomers in certain areas it could even act as a deterrent to anti social behaviour which does occur in certain places. 

Canterbury P&R and North Devon have both proved the benefit of these schemes. and now several other areas of the country have followed their lead and already started supplying these sort of parking areas and reports suggest they are proving very successful and popular. In these days of major cuts in public services surely any form of income for the council should be given serious consideration and by allowing the parking as suggested the benefits would be twofold extra revenue for the council and more tourism income for private enterprise. Can only be good for the Cornish rate payer.


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## Deleted member 19733 (Dec 4, 2014)

witzend said:


> Although Councilor Candy has made his position clear and declared a interest by his family owning a camp site so should not be involved in any decision. Might I suggest a email to some of the other councilors
> 
> https://democracy.cornwall.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?bcr=1
> 
> ...



We have sent a copy of our email dated 29th November to all the above councillors, but not received any responses as yet.

:cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## Deleted member 19733 (Dec 6, 2014)

*First response*

First response received from Joanna Kenny, one of the councillors from Cornwall

Dear Lou 

Thank you for this.    Providing motor home facilities in suitable carparks – for example Tregunnel Hill in Newquay – is something I have already proposed to our car parking people.    No progress as yet but we will keep the issue open

Regards

Joanna


Its a start ....:hammer: lets hope for more


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