# Gear Change



## marzy

Help needed please. Have a Citroen Relay panel van conversion. 
Recently have had problems changing from 5th gear to 4th. Thought at first it was down to very cold weather and gearbox not warm enough. It does improve normally when warm, however travelling from Somerset to lakes yesterday it was happening at different times.  It was stop and start on motorway as traffic was a nightmare.
Hope someone can give me a clue! Have searched in 'Gears' but not this problem. Van has done 59,000 miles.
Cheers


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## runnach

If it is a crunching noise except at low revs, possibly a knick knacked syncromesh.
I had the same problem on my fiat.

Apparently there are two gearboxes ML and ME a specialist will establish which you have.

Good news and bad news, If it is the synchro expect a £700 I am told out the realms of a home mechanic due to special tooling, You will even find main dealers farm out the work !!

The good news fwiw is that continuing to drive I was told would be a detriment to the rest of the box.( although my problem is third which is on the same shaft ? has the 4 th gear.

Channa


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## marzy

Cheers for that Channa.
No crunching sound just difficult to engage and not all the time.


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## jeffscarborough

I had a similar problem with a VW T4 camper I used to own.

I changed the gearbox oil to multigrade 80/90 semi synthetic by Comma oils.It made a huge difference to the gear changes. Worth a try?

                             Jeff.


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## marzy

Cheers Jeff
Thats worth a go, just frustrating because its not all the time.


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## Hallii

As Jeff says, it's worth changing the oil, check the old oil carefully for any tell tale bits of metal, such things can be very diagnostic to the trained eye!

I changed the gearbox oil on my T4 as well, I didn't change the type though, just used VW branded oil. It made the gear change much smoother.

Hallii


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## runnach

marzy said:


> Cheers for that Channa.
> No crunching sound just difficult to engage and not all the time.



Perhaps that is a god send then, For sure the advice re oils seems sound.

I dont know how old your van is, but what i do know is that on a lot of older vans Fiats but Citroens and Pugs were built in the same place.

There is some kind of 'bush' on the linkage which can fail ( become stiff)....considering the weather etc perhaps a linkage just 'crapped' up.

Not sure whether this helps ..but hope you get it sorted 

Channa


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## marzy

Cheers again Channa 
 Van is a 2004 so hoping it is something simple.


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## runnach

marzy said:


> Cheers again Channa
> Van is a 2004 so hoping it is something simple.



In all honesty the bush problem I was aware of relates to far earlier vans.

As others have mentioned the current climate and the viscosity of your oil may be a contributory factor.

However in my mind this wouldnt explain ( or would it ? ) why you are suffering a gearchange problem in one particular gear?

Hence my suspicion a syncro / linkage problem.

Channa


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## l77 tuf

i would say linkage prblem myself my mate had same problem with his panel van till he blew engine on it


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## lenny

l77 tuf said:


> i would say linkage prblem myself my mate had same problem with his panel van till he blew engine on it



Me too, I would definitely have a good look at the linkage first , saying that in my older van I also suspect a worn clutch release bearing.

Good Luck Marzy


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## runnach

lenny said:


> Me too, I would definitely have a good look at the linkage first , saying that in my older van I also suspect a worn clutch release bearing.
> 
> Good Luck Marzy



Far from a dig Lenny, But would a clutch release bearing not affect every gearchange ? 

I have gleaned that seval product can be temperamental due to the rhd conversion. Which was my initial instinct after the OP mentioned no crunching dispeelling a syncr  problem more linkage 

Channa


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## maingate

I had a peugeot based m/home, less than 3 years old with 8,000 on the clock.

Lovely slick gear change........ until the temp went below zero. Going to work early on a morning, I could only get 4 gears, 3 if it was really cold. Once it warmed up a bit (about 1 mile down the road) hey presto, back to 5 gears.

This gear change problem might not be down to one single factor, this weather finds all the weak spots.


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## runnach

maingate said:


> I had a peugeot based m/home, less than 3 years old with 8,000 on the clock.
> 
> Lovely slick gear change........ until the temp went below zero. Going to work early on a morning, I could only get 4 gears, 3 if it was really cold. Once it warmed up a bit (about 1 mile down the road) hey presto, back to 5 gears.
> 
> This gear change problem might not be down to one single factor, this weather finds all the weak spots.



The joys of summat mechanical eh..? ...I have to be truthful as much as I try and work it out and happy to assist others ...I just dont get the gig 

Channa


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## marzy

maingate said:


> I had a peugeot based m/home, less than 3 years old with 8,000 on the clock.
> 
> Lovely slick gear change........ until the temp went below zero. Going to work early on a morning, I could only get 4 gears, 3 if it was really cold. Once it warmed up a bit (about 1 mile down the road) hey presto, back to 5 gears.
> 
> This gear change problem might not be down to one single factor, this weather finds all the weak spots.



Cheers Maingate,  This did describe the original problem ( cold,poor gear change) but not the problem travelling back from Somerset. I hope it is the oil, but with my luck it will be the expensive option Channa quoted. Complex buggers arnt they!   
I can now however take it to an expert and have an idea what he is talking about.
Cheers


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## Telstar

Marzy

Let me start by saying that I am not an expert, in anything the wife would add! 

If you are only having a problem with 4th to/from 5th gear, there used to be a problem with 5th gear on these gearboxes.  But I thought that a 2004 van would have a newer/better box/gear on it.  I can not recall problems with the van conversions and thought that it might only be linked to coachbuilt vans.  I recall a couple of things but google searching would help.  1 may be to put more oil in there (but check google and advice first) the other is that if 5th is going, I understood it to be a bolted on bit to the box and therefore a lot easier and cheaper to replace/repair.

Jon


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## maingate

Hi Marzy

I think it would be sensible to get an opinion on the gearbox from a mechanic. If there is not a big problem and you are changing the gearbox oil, put a gearbox additive in at the same time. It is only rarely the oil needs changing so this might give you peace of mind for a long time.


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## colpot

I thought I read somewhere that there was an issue with some Fiat Gearboxes where the 5th Gear is in a position that does not receive sufficient oil to lubricate it. (I may be completely wrong as I am 50 on Monday and so easily confused these days that I would be worried if I wasnt so confused)


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## maingate

Hi colpot,

You are correct in what you say. These were pre 2002 (I believe around then)

It was recommended that on long runs in 5th gear (motorways etc.) it was beneficial to drop down to 4th occasionally as the higher revs splashed oil into the separate compartment that housed 5th at the top of the box. Whether this worked, I don`t know. 

The 5th gear itself could self destruct while running and some people fitted a very strong magnet (from a hi fi speaker) to the metal cover over 5th gear. This allegedly prevented the bits falling down into the box.

I believe that this is not the case here but at least we have given members something else to worry about.


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## rickboy

*Splash lubrication*

You are quite right as usual.The 5th gear is an afterthought to the 4 speed original box.It likes a bit of splash lubrication.Dont change up into 5th too early when cold or hold onto it too much under load,ie uphill.Some driving techniques are economical on fuel but increase mechanical wear,you need a happy medium.
Rick


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## Brandyman

*brandyman*

I had same problem changed oil did work when warm and no rev ended up getting gear box rebuilt  £400 well worth the money no problems now. 
   Refurbished in Glasgow (gearbox specialist)


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## marzy

Going to have a go with oil change, Found drain plug but where is the filler on a Citroen Relay 2.2 hdi please?  Please dont say on top of the gearbox as this looks impossible to get at.


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## marzy

Oh and Happy New Year


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## maingate

If it is the same as the Ducato box then there is no filler.

You remove the breather and fill through there. It is extremely difficult to get at on the Fiat.

If that is the case on a Renault then you need to find out the capacity of the gearbox and measure out that amount. Then get it all into the box.

Simples (I don`t think)


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## marzy

Thanks Maingate, 
Nothing is simple, think i will forget about it for tonight and get p...ed


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## LaughingHeart

Have you got the Pergeot transverse engine? If so the gear linkages may need a little adjustment. I had this problem with my Talbot, the gears did all manner of strange things, like not wanting to get reverse and 5th gaer etc. I got new linkages and now all is well. One of the 3 links has an adjuster thread, so worth checking out. HTH.....Happy New Year!
Paol.


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## wolly

I have a 2004 citreon 2.8 relay same happend to me it was gear linkage on top of gearbox put up on ramps and disconect from cable it is the selector cable you want get some one to move gear leaver from left to right you underneath you will see the cable that opperate the linkage I have had problems with peugeot fiat and citreon they are a letdown on all three vehicle same box if it is more serius you can get exchange box for £250.00 my local gararge would charge just under £500.00 all in which is excellent wolly


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## runnach

Slightly OT but still of relevance,

Is on all Seval product a inherent problem has always been issues with RHD conversion for the UK market. Bearing this in mind, the clutch cables on these machines are unique to the rhd market. On lhd models the transverse engine and gear box canter is practically in line for smooth change. and the clutch cable is a perhaps 18 inches in length.

Bearing all this in mind anyone venturing abroad as a spare it might well be worth carrying a clutch cable as part of your spares kit.?

Channa


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## marzy

Thanks for all replies.  Travelled to Chester New Years Day and stayed over at Littlle Roodee Car park. I decided to change driving style as suggested and there was a definite improvement. 
Not going into 5th gear so early, letting box warm up, changing down more on motorway. Didnt have problems engageing any gears, still not the smoothest box but seemed a lot better. I also sprayed all the crap off the linkage before setting off.
 I am going to book into local garage to have oil changed as no idea where to put the bloody stuff. 
Thanks to everyone again for all the help.


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