# A frame in europe



## Compo (Feb 10, 2015)

I am thinking of towing my smart car around Europe this summer from Calais into Belgium Luxembourg.Germany,France then into Italy does anybody know of any problems in any of these country's that may inhibit me ??? (its an A frame with overrun brakes )


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## Tezza33 (Feb 10, 2015)

There are stories around about problems in France because of new laws but I am in the South of France at the moment and I have seen 5 vans towing with an A frame and all were French, I have used an A frame in all the Countries you have mentioned including France up to three years ago without problems, I was stopped once in Germany but they were more interested in how it worked and were very friendly wishing me a good holiday, over run brakes are no different in law to the electronic brake, both use inertia to operate so are not treated any different in law however there are some who use rumours to tell you differently


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## kenspain (Feb 10, 2015)

Don,t come into Spain you could be unlucky :wave:


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## Tezza33 (Feb 10, 2015)

kenspain said:


> Don,t come into Spain you could be unlucky :wave:


He didn't mention Spain Ken but I would not contemplate it these days even though I am told some get away with it, I would not try Russian Roulette either


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## phillybarbour (Feb 10, 2015)

Done those but not Luxembourg in last couple of years with no issues at all.


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## Compo (Feb 11, 2015)

*bump*



Compo said:


> I am thinking of towing my smart car around Europe this summer from Calais into Belgium Luxembourg.Germany,France then into Italy does anybody know of any problems in any of these country's that may inhibit me ??? (its an A frame with overrun brakes )


 bump


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## John H (Feb 11, 2015)

A- frames are illegal in France. Whether or not you get stopped depends on the gendarmes. We have known people forced to uncouple and drive the vehicles separately and we have known people who have done it for years with no problem. It is up to you whether you want to take the risk but if you are stopped you won't have a leg to stand on.


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## Compo (Feb 11, 2015)

*a frame*

under which law in France is it illegal???


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## John H (Feb 11, 2015)

Compo said:


> under which law in France is it illegal???



EU regulations state that it has to be legal in the country of origin. There is dispute as to whether it is legal or not in the UK other than for towing between garage and home. Thus if any police force in the EU decide to get stroppy then you may decide to argue but most of us would not. Many people have beentold to decouple in France - if you decide to take on the gendarmes then good luck to you!


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## m30 (Feb 11, 2015)

There is an article on this in this months MMM, might be worth a read if you can get hold of a copy

stu


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## Tezza33 (Feb 11, 2015)

John H said:


> EU regulations state that it has to be legal in the country of origin. There is dispute as to whether it is legal or not in the UK other than for towing between garage and home. Thus if any police force in the EU decide to get stroppy then you may decide to argue but most of us would not. Many people have beentold to decouple in France - if you decide to take on the gendarmes then good luck to you!



Where is the dispute of whether it is legal or not iun the UK?, the Department fo Transport say that as far as they are concerned when you attach a car to a Motorhome with an A frame they consider it to be a single unit, ie 'a trailer', the only dispute is that it has not been tested in Court but if anybody in the UK was taken to Court the Court would use the DOT for guidance as to whether it was legal, that guidance would not be any different than the quote below because it is 'their' quote, and you* can* reverse a car on an A frame because I do it regularly so the usual comments that it is one of the reasons it is not legal do not apply


> A”- Frames
> When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g.
> motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in
> legislation as a
> ...


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## m30 (Feb 11, 2015)

I've just read the article in MMM again, when talking about the legality in Europe, it seems that in some countries it is the actual act of towing a vehicle on the road that is illegal rather than the Aframe itself. 
The point is made that if an A frame is legal in one country, then under the Vienna Convention, it can be used in any other country, but a quote is given from the Austrian Ministry of Transport
"The use of A frames for towing a car behind a motorhome is not allowed in Austria. These regulations are behavioural rules as defined by the Vienna Convention and apply also for foreign drivers"

Stu


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## Tony Lee (Feb 11, 2015)

Arguments about legality in home country applying in another do not hold up very well.

eg  blood alcohol level in UK is X, in another  country is half that. Does that mean UK drivers won't be prosecuted if they are between X and X/2. Good luck with that

Hi vis vests, light bulb kits, reflectors on bikes on the back, warning triangles  etc etc

And try driving on the wrong side of the road because that is what you do back home.

Reversing an a-framed toad. Yes, I do it all the time too but only if special procedures are taken and in the normal sense, it is not possible to reverse the combination in anywhere close to how you can reverse a conventional trailer.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 11, 2015)

Tony Lee said:


> Arguments about legality in home country applying in another do not hold up very well.
> 
> eg  blood alcohol level in UK is X, in another  country is half that. Does that mean UK drivers won't be prosecuted if they are between X and X/2. Good luck with that
> 
> ...



Why would we want to drive on the wrong side of the road when we are back home. :have fun:


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## John H (Feb 11, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> Where is the dispute of whether it is legal or not iun the UK?, the Department fo Transport say that as far as they are concerned when you attach a car to a Motorhome with an A frame they consider it to be a single unit, ie 'a trailer', the only dispute is that it has not been tested in Court but if anybody in the UK was taken to Court the Court would use the DOT for guidance as to whether it was legal, that guidance would not be any different than the quote below because it is 'their' quote, and you* can* reverse a car on an A frame because I do it regularly so the usual comments that it is one of the reasons it is not legal do not apply



The dispute arises from the fact that it has never been tested in the UK courts. Until that time, the law is unclear. It is that lack of clarity that enables the French and the Spanish (and any others that want to get involved) to claim that the UK situation is unclear. Thus if the police there stop you they can fine you - unless, of course, you have the time and the finances to challenge them in court.


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## Compo (Feb 11, 2015)

*a frame*

it is my opinion that the foreigners dont want to bother the english as they seem to let locals do what they want !!!


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## John H (Feb 12, 2015)

Compo said:


> it is my opinion that the foreigners dont want to bother the english as they seem to let locals do what they want !!!



I have met people who have been either fined or told to decouple in both Spain and France. I have also met people who have used an A-frame in those countries without any trouble. It is up to you whether you want to take the risk but the police on the continent do most definitely stop foreigners - and they are not interested in any bits of paper you might thrust at them saying that it is legal. As a result, you see far fewer A-frames in France and Spain than you used to.


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## Teutone (Feb 12, 2015)

what puzzles me with all this is the distance between the axles of the tow car. Sure it becomes a trailer and isn't just a car on tow (otherwise what would a real trailer with a car shell mounted to it be?), but what driving license do you need for a trailer with the axles apart more than 1000mm?


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## colinm (Feb 12, 2015)

I've not yet read that MMM article, but AFAIK since the end of last year all new 'trailers' must have some form of CofC, and that would be for the whole, not just the A frame. Now if car-a-tow or any of the others could produce one of those the 'trailer' would be legal around the world. I questioned a member on OAL about his new A frame installation and received no answer, which I take as meaning 'trailers' are now being illegally produced in this country. My gut feeling is nothing will be done until there's an accident and some switched on insurance assessor refuses payment.


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## kenspain (Feb 12, 2015)

Ok this is straight from the horses mouth. It is Spanish Law that you can not tow any car with the four wheels on the road unless you are a recover company or told to by the police to do so, it dose not matter what country you are from, If stopped we can make you unhook the car or fine you on the spot, you reg will go on our computer that you have been advised about this, if your stopped again you will be find a lot more for breaking Spanish Law.   OK now please dont tell my son I called him a horse:wave:


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## Compo (Feb 12, 2015)

*a frame*

please enlighten me on the more sensible approach??


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## Compo (Feb 12, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

i have a large 9mtr motor home and as it may be difficult to park at the seaside/in towns i thought taking a smart car would be smart??


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## vindiboy (Feb 13, 2015)

I have seen two A Framers here in Portugal since we have been here but that doesn,t answer your query,but just thought I would comment.Maybe they came via Santander and missed France.?


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## Compo (Feb 13, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

but i thought a frames were a definite no no in spain ??????????????????????


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## John H (Feb 13, 2015)

The confusion arises from the fact that the matter of legality in the UK has never been tested in the courts. This enables the manufacturers to claim they are legal in the UK and the police in France, Spain etc to say that this has never been proved. IF they were legal in the UK then they would be legal throughout the EU for a British registered vehicle even if they weren't legal for a local registered vehicle. Anyone willing to take the matter to court?


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## Compo (Feb 13, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

weight of smart car is 780kgs and the problem is that trailers are 350kgs in weight and that takes me over my 1000kgs as per autotrail commanche spec{towing limit)


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## colinm (Feb 13, 2015)

John H said:


> The confusion arises from the fact that the matter of legality in the UK has never been tested in the courts. This enables the manufacturers to claim they are legal in the UK and the police in France, Spain etc to say that this has never been proved. IF they were legal in the UK then they would be legal throughout the EU for a British registered vehicle even if they weren't legal for a local registered vehicle. Anyone willing to take the matter to court?




As I posted earlier from back end of last year all trailers require certification, if an A frame manufacturer or owner gets a cert then they will be legal around the world let alone EU, without one then AFAIK all new A frame are illegal.

Trailer Certification


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## John H (Feb 14, 2015)

Of course the French - and anyone else - are entitled to make their own rules. Thus if they decided that vehicles with A-frames weren't allowed on certain roads then that would be the law. But the current dispute is about road-worthiness and the French (and others) using the lack of clarity to say that A-frames cannot be used. If it were tested in court and if it was proved that A-frames are declared legally roadworthy in the UK then the French would have to go to the bother of banning them from certain routes. It is far easier for them to be able to say they aren't legal in the UK and so you can't use them.


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## John H (Feb 14, 2015)

I think you are confusing two different things here. EU Construction and Use Rules state that the regulations that apply are the ones in the country of registration. Thus if A-frames were legal in the UK they would be legal on a UK registered car in France. However, France is perfectly able to restrict certain vehicles from certain roads. It would be far more time-consuming for them than relying on the uncertainty that exists at present and it might also mean that foreign vehicles might be able to go where local similar vehicles couldn't, which would create mayhem.  However, whichever way it goes, the reality on the ground is the same - it would be very unwise to argue with the gendarme that stops you!


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## Micky (Feb 14, 2015)

*a frame or trailer*

Purchased motor home  and smart car 18months ago checked for advice as you do re towing ,I was still at a lose so I rang the as,who informed me that I can use the a frame system but next year I will have to buy a trailer,so I got the trailer first no probs


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## Compo (Feb 14, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

ok lets look at my problem another way guys i have a autotrail comanche tag axle with max mass of 6000kgs i have a smart car with a factory weight of 730kgs
if i get a trailer at 350kgs =1180kgs  autotrail state 1000kgs max towing capacity what do i do????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Mullsy (Feb 14, 2015)

Compo said:


> ok lets look at my problem another way guys i have a autotrail comanche tag axle with max mass of 6000kgs i have a smart car with a factory weight of 730kgs
> if i get a trailer at 350kgs =1180kgs  autotrail state 1000kgs max towing capacity what do i do????????????????????????????????????????????????



Its actually 1080kgs.If you use a noseweight of 80 kgs it would actually be a legal tow.I personally wouldn't like to tow as close as this to the limits.


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## shortcircuit (Feb 14, 2015)

Mullsy said:


> Its actually 1080kgs.If you use a noseweight of 80 kgs it would actually be a legal tow.I personally wouldn't like to tow as close as this to the limits.



The mass your are towing is still 1180 kgs no matter how you balance the trailer, so overweight?


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## mark61 (Feb 15, 2015)

Worth checking again with Auto-Trail.
Their current brochure says. 

"If the maximum authorised vehicle weight is not fully utilised, then the towable weight can be increased accordingly. The gross train figure however must not be exceeded."


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## Tony Lee (Feb 15, 2015)

mark61 said:


> Worth checking again with Auto-Trail.
> Their current brochure says.
> 
> "If the maximum authorised vehicle weight is not fully utilised, then the towable weight can be increased accordingly. The gross train figure however must not be exceeded."


.

They probably believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden too. Other factors come into play besides the axle ratings and braking ability. What about ratings of towbars that are tacked on to the end of fairly insubstantial extended chassis members.  Or increased propensity for jackknifing because of the increased overhang together with poor braking on the toad.


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## John H (Feb 15, 2015)

I never said it was a trailer. That has nothing to do with what I have been saying - why mention it? Perhaps to draw attention away from the fact that you are still confusing two different things - but it doesn't matter because the end result of both is that it is unwise to use an A-frame in France or Spain!


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## mark61 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tony Lee said:


> .
> 
> They probably believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden too. Other factors come into play besides the axle ratings and braking ability. What about ratings of towbars that are tacked on to the end of fairly insubstantial extended chassis members.  Or increased propensity for jackknifing because of the increased overhang together with poor braking on the toad.




Best ask Auto Trail.


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## Compo (Feb 15, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

sent them an e mail to technical dept to see what they say will post there reply if they respond


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## lebesset (Feb 15, 2015)

for what is worth am in spain parked next to a french motorhomer who tells me that he has given up an A frame because not only can he not use it in spain but that it has been ruled illegal in france as well 

his theory is that this has come about because although only Aframes using hydraulic brakes were used in france , because of the breakdown rules the truck could only move the car and motorhome if had a caravan type towhitch , otherwise 2 trucks would be required


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## Mullsy (Feb 15, 2015)

shortcircuit said:


> The mass your are towing is still 1180 kgs no matter how you balance the trailer, so overweight?



The car 730 the trailer 350 which equals 1080 not 1180.The point I was making is that the noseweight is transferred to the tow vehicle so its not really a question of distributing the weight on the trailer.A noseweight of 80kgs should leave an axle weight of 1000kgs.He would be very close.I wonder if he could the transfer the spare wheels/tools/jack ect to the M/H assuming he has the payload capacity

Just read back,its now 780 so 1130kg.Hopefully,the initial tow limit is wrong.Always reminds me why I gave up towing and haven't missed it


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## Compo (Feb 15, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

in with you shortcircuit total mass 1080kgs towed not shared with tow hitch


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## mark61 (Feb 15, 2015)

You have to check full specs in brochure to find out what the * means.

If you don't use the full 875Kg, you can add the rest to the towing weight.


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## shortcircuit (Feb 15, 2015)

Mullsy said:


> The car 730 the trailer 350 which equals 1080 not 1180.The point I was making is that the noseweight is transferred to the tow vehicle so its not really a question of distributing the weight on the trailer.A noseweight of 80kgs should leave an axle weight of 1000kgs.He would be very close.I wonder if he could the transfer the spare wheels/tools/jack ect to the M/H assuming he has the payload capacity
> 
> Just read back,its now 780 so 1130kg.Hopefully,the initial tow limit is wrong.Always reminds me why I gave up towing and haven't missed it



It does not matter what the figures are.  It is the mass you are towing and it will not change however you balance the trailer. You just cannot loose mass by moving the load on the trailer.


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## mark61 (Feb 15, 2015)

MH converters are pushing what are basically a light commercials vehicles to the maximum. If you want a big 7 metre + MH and tow a car, you are best off with a 7.5 T truck.


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## John H (Feb 15, 2015)

1. I can assure you there was no false assumption in my posts. You were thus correcting something I never said or implied!

2. The response was not childish. I was simply pointing out that your confusion of two different things did not matter because the advice in all cases (confused or not) comes to the same thing.

3. I suggest you read the EU regulations before saying that they don't apply.


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## Compo (Feb 15, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

what are the eu regulations??


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## John H (Feb 15, 2015)

Compo said:


> what are the eu regulations??



Well this might be a good place to start https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment


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## John H (Feb 15, 2015)

Good grief, man - try to take those French blinkers off. I said that the link would be a good place to start - primarily because it shows that there IS considerable confusion, even in our Governments own interpretation of the regulations (a confusion that you originally claimed did not exist!). I also earlier said that this confusion could only be resolved by the courts. At least you now seem to acknowledge both of those points so I suppose we are getting somewhere. And, yes, France IS bound by EU regulations, just the same as any other member country!


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## John H (Feb 15, 2015)

[No message]


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## n brown (Feb 15, 2015)

[No message]


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## maxi77 (Feb 15, 2015)

It would certainly not be the first time that a nations laws have been found to be contrary to EU law. According to the fundamental single market laws items that are type approved in one country are type approved in all. Thus if a A frame is type approved in the UK it is type approved in the whole EU. That would imply it is legal to use it. The UK however seems to have little interest in protecting it's citizens or manufacturers from other countries faulty application of the law. On the other hand if countries were fining French drivers usung Frenchmade A frames one can be sure France would be haranguing al in Brussels


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## campertwo (Feb 15, 2015)

Some very good & informative advice & information going on here! I did consider for a very short time about towing a small car behind us, but......... if I decided to do that might as well be a caravaner towing a 'wobbly-box!
We towed a big motorbike on a trailer through France a few years ago, what a nightmare when you need to reverse though! Unhitch, turn the vehicle around, rehitch again! Jacknifes in seconds due to the shortness of the outfit too! Went for the 'Scooter on the towbar' option next, then found out I was a tad over the limit of the towbar ball, being a max of 100kg load on the ball, the bike was actually 115kg (125cc) plus the weight of the frame to hold the bike! Opps, sorry officer?
Then went for the 'Scooter in the garage' route. That was better, but I was still probably over the limit for the rear axle. Our latest van can't take the weight of any 125cc scooter which I am not happy about, but 'er indoors' loves the layout of this one so..............
Now we have a couple of pushbikes on a bike rack & if we need to go further afield without the van, we will hire a car! Ho-hum  :cool1:


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## colinm (Feb 15, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> According to the fundamental single market laws items that are type approved in one country are type approved in all.



For the third time on this thread I will point out the trailer certification page for the relevant UK agency.
Trailer Certification

Now I will point out the caratow 'travel doc'

http://www.caratow.com/docs/english.pdf

Does that look like a type approval doc or just a bit of bull?


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## colinm (Feb 15, 2015)

campertwo said:


> Some very good & informative advice & information going on here! I did consider for a very short time about towing a small car behind us, but......... if I decided to do that might as well be a caravaner towing a 'wobbly-box!
> We towed a big motorbike on a trailer through France a few years ago, what a nightmare when you need to reverse though! Unhitch, turn the vehicle around, rehitch again! Jacknifes in seconds due to the shortness of the outfit too! Went for the 'Scooter on the towbar' option next, then found out I was a tad over the limit of the towbar ball, being a max of 100kg load on the ball, the bike was actually 115kg (125cc) plus the weight of the frame to hold the bike! Opps, sorry officer?
> Then went for the 'Scooter in the garage' route. That was better, but I was still probably over the limit for the rear axle. Our latest van can't take the weight of any 125cc scooter which I am not happy about, but 'er indoors' loves the layout of this one so..............
> Now we have a couple of pushbikes on a bike rack & if we need to go further afield without the van, we will hire a car! Ho-hum  :cool1:



You can get a bike trailer which rigidly attaches to rear of van and has two swiveling wheels, this makes it easy to reverse, the downside is it becomes in affect a large rear overhang which swings out quite wide on turning.


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## Mul (Feb 15, 2015)

*Better than yawn ... ping - pong*

This made me laugh when I saw it. I thought it was amazing in it's luxurious OTT (IMHO) extravagance. One piccy for those interested a big German van towing an X-trail !!! From our 6 month trip, Portugal 2009. Pego de Alto, Barragem.

View attachment 27785

deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted !!!!!!!


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## Wooie1958 (Feb 16, 2015)

Honfleur, France. last september ..........  if you`ve got it, flaunt it     :rabbit:

a 42ft Monaco Diplomat RV towing a tri-axle trailer with a brand new Range Rover Autobiography V8 on it, both vehicles on 64 reg GB plates.

It might as well have had neon / flashing lights all over it as it stood out that much, everyone was talking / laughing about it.


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## John H (Feb 16, 2015)

Yippee - I think we have finally got there! The WHOLE point of this discussion is that there is CONFUSION in the interpretation of whether or not A-frames are legal in the country of origin. It is that CONFUSION that gives the French, Spanish etc free-reign to interpret the law as they see fit for foreign vehicles. IF there were no CONFUSION then the EU rules that it is construction and use in the HOME country which holds sway would put the French in a position they do not wish to be in. Got it now? 

PS it is not MY interpretation; it is the Government's.


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## John H (Feb 16, 2015)

[No message]


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## Compo (Feb 16, 2015)

Just in from Auto Trail

Hi,

If the maximum authorised weight is not fully utilised then the towing weight can be increased accordingly. The gross train figure must never be exceeded.

The gross train weight is 6000kg so in theory you can tow up to 1750kg. Obviously you need to allow some tolerance in case you load the vehicle differently when you are travelling.

Regards



Auto Trail
Steve Moverley
Director of Design and Development


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## Mullsy (Feb 16, 2015)

Hopefully gives you enough to play with


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## Compo (Feb 16, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

not sure as back end of motorhome will carry 1.75 ton i think its a bit flimsy what do you think ??


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## maxi77 (Feb 16, 2015)

I would suggest your failure to tow safely is not a reason for not towing with a motorhome. A properly set up rig with modern braking can actually contribute to the total braking effort of the combined rig.


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## mark61 (Feb 16, 2015)

Compo said:


> not sure as back end of motorhome will carry 1.75 ton i think its a bit flimsy what do you think ??




I expected their e mail to say that after what I read in their brochure. That would do me.


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## Compo (Feb 16, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

is there anyone out there that tows with an autotrail tag axle and what do they tow ??? ie weight


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## Teutone (Feb 16, 2015)

how about this, taken from NTTA FAQ - National Trailer and Towing Association Ltd

*I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it  using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal  with this outfit? *Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this  as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross  Trailer Weight, not a car's kerb weight. The figure you have to use is  the car's Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is  usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no  knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The  only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is  the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can  be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only  be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety.  Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a  braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to  the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to  European Directives contained within the Construction and Use  Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC  and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of  this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to  recover a vehicle to a place of safety.


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## Compo (Feb 16, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

why do you have to use the gross vehicle weight as there will be no people in the car at the time of towing as this is surely illegal in any country unless your in india


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## mark61 (Feb 16, 2015)

As far as I understand, it's the same with a trailer. If you have, say a 2000Kg towing limit, but tow a trailer which has a GVW of 3500Kg and weighs 750Kg empty, you are still technically braking the law towing it empty. You'd be very very unlucky to be done for it though.


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## Teutone (Feb 16, 2015)

[No message]


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## John H (Feb 16, 2015)

Compo said:


> Just in from Auto Trail
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...



Wasn't your original enquiry to do with problems towing with an a-frame in Europe? I have no idea what the technical specifications are but surely they are not relevant to your original enquiry - the answer to which is that the legal uncertainty means that you may get all the way to where you are going without being stopped but there is a very high possibility that you will be stopped, fined and/or told to uncouple and there is no point in arguing if you are.


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## mark61 (Feb 16, 2015)

John H said:


> Wasn't your original enquiry to do with problems towing with an a-frame in Europe? I have no idea what the technical specifications are but surely they are not relevant to your original enquiry - the answer to which is that the legal uncertainty means that you may get all the way to where you are going without being stopped but there is a very high possibility that you will be stopped, fined and/or told to uncouple and there is no point in arguing if you are.




Post 38


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## John H (Feb 16, 2015)

mark61 said:


> Post 38



Fair enough - but does it matter what the technicalities are if you can be stopped for towing at all?


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## Tony Lee (Feb 16, 2015)

John H said:


> A- frames are illegal in France. Whether or not you get stopped depends on the gendarmes. We have known people forced to uncouple and drive the vehicles separately and we have known people who have done it for years with no problem. It is up to you whether you want to take the risk but if you are stopped you won't have a leg to stand on.



Four pages after this very early reply (which agreed with the four replies before it) and it seems as if the answer to the OP is still "Yes, you will have problems"


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## Compo (Feb 16, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

seems ive wasted my money buying an a frame for use in europe but i can legally use it in the uk ????


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## John H (Feb 17, 2015)

Compo said:


> seems ive wasted my money buying an a frame for use in europe but i can legally use it in the uk ????



As long as you comply with the directives in the government link I posted, the attitude of the British authorities seems to be the opposite of the French - ie it is legal until proved otherwise in court (incidentally this is in line with other differences between French and English law). Unless others have different experiences, I know of no-one who has had a problem with A-frames in the UK.


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## maxi77 (Feb 17, 2015)

Perhaps some one who has an A Frame could try using the procedures on this site to get a more definative ruling.
Commission at Work - Enquiries and complaints about application of Union law - European Commission


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## colinm (Feb 17, 2015)

Compo said:


> seems ive wasted my money buying an a frame for use in europe but i can legally use it in the uk ????



How old is it and the car? If the design of both is before 29/10/12 there is nothing saying you can't use it in the UK, if either was designed after that date or even if existing designs they are newer than 29/10/14, then according to this they need certification, as long as you have that you can AFAIK use it across all europe. 
Trailer Certification


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## Compo (Feb 17, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

my smart car is a w reg year 2000 i guess and the a frame looks to be as old as the car it has overun brakes is this still legal in the uk ??


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## Deleted member 919 (Feb 17, 2015)

Wheres George Telford when you need him ?


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## Compo (Feb 17, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

is he a full member??


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## Deleted member 919 (Feb 17, 2015)

He was a member years ago ........an expert on A frames


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## Compo (Feb 17, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

aka johnh


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## John H (Feb 17, 2015)

Compo said:


> aka johnh



Sorry, I know nothing about A-frames..................but I do understand the law.


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## Burtie (Feb 17, 2015)

I use an A-frame on many occasions not with my motorhome as I have no towbar on that now.
But I move a few cars about with my 4x4 and I've been a fair few places with it in the uk with no trouble 
At all and driven past the law with it plenty of times too.
All I get is loads of folk looking as they must be fascinated how it tows with nobody in the car behind me.
Mine is a big heavy duty one but I have often seen flimsy ones that bend and break easily
I've also seen lots of off road drivers taking their off road vehicles with A-frames 
And I've also seen the AA use them


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## colinm (Feb 18, 2015)

My point is, there is nothing to stop a manufacturer or owner taking an A framed car and getting it certified as a trailer as long as it pass's the test. With a cert from the UK agency that combo becomes a trailer. The only question is, will/can any manufacturer get one throu the test, else it is illegal not just in France/Spain but also UK.


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## John H (Feb 19, 2015)

colinmd said:


> My point is, there is nothing to stop a manufacturer or owner taking an A framed car and getting it certified as a trailer as long as it pass's the test. With a cert from the UK agency that combo becomes a trailer. The only question is, will/can any manufacturer get one throu the test, else it is illegal not just in France/Spain but also UK.



This brings us back to the government link I posted earlier https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment . As you can see, in the government's view an a-frame attached to a car becomes a trailer. However, this has never been tested in court and until such time as it is the legal situation remains unclear. Thus the governments of France, Spain etc are able to say that it isn't legal in the UK and therefore they are entitled to refuse to allow them on their roads. Whichever way round you look at the problem, you keep coming back to the same answer - nobody will know for certain whether it is legal or not until it is the subject of a court case. As things stand at the moment, it is in everybody's interest (except the companies that make a-frames and the owners of them!) to allow the confusion to continue, so unless you are willing to spend a fortune on legal costs the soundest advice is not to drive with an a-frame in Europe - unless you are willing to face the potential consequences.


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## Compo (Feb 19, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

years ago there  used to be a tab that could be moved over manually to stop the inertia system from operating during reversing could this system still be used ??


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## Touringtheworld (Feb 19, 2015)

........ Have lots of people seen this thread and put theirs up for sale, there are lots on ebay


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## John H (Feb 19, 2015)

Yes , indeed - that is what I have been saying all along. The interpretation of whether or not it is legal rests with the individual country. If, however, it had been tested in the English courts and proved legal, then that would take precendence under the EU regulations on construction and use.


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## Tezza33 (Feb 19, 2015)

I reverse mine no problem, as someone said you cannot reverse as accurately as you can with a caravan but the law doesn't state that you have to (IMO), a lot of drivers cannot reverse a trailer and it is very difficult reversing a small trailer with a motorhome because you cannot see it until it has turned too much, I reverse my car better than I ever did a trailer


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## Tezza33 (Feb 20, 2015)

It has the normal overrun braking system, when you reverse the car gets pushed backwards very easily and doesn't apply the brakes, (I have never tried reversing uphill though), the only problem you get is that the front wheels can turn the wrong way and the car locks up, I practised for a long time in empty car parks to get it right, I know the law says a braked trailer must have auto reverse brakes but until somebody is taken to Court and prosecuted I will continue to use mine in the UK tenuously clinging to the belief they must be auto reverse otherwise I couldn't do it


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## Wooie1958 (Feb 22, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> It has the normal overrun braking system, when you reverse the car gets pushed backwards very easily and doesn't apply the brakes, (I have never tried reversing uphill though), the only problem you get is that the front wheels can turn the wrong way and the car locks up, I practised for a long time in empty car parks to get it right, I know the law says a braked trailer must have auto reverse brakes but until somebody is taken to Court and prosecuted I will continue to use mine in the UK tenuously clinging to the belief they must be auto reverse otherwise I couldn't do it




Or have you got the cable slack enough so as to not apply the brakes when you reverse ?


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## Tezza33 (Feb 22, 2015)

Wooie1958 said:


> Or have you got the cable slack enough so as to not apply the brakes when you reverse ?


Well it obviously isn't tight because it doesn't need to be but it has to work going forward so I have set it carefully, I know it doesn't compress the hitch because I have stood and watched it while my Wife reverses, there is a very small movement if you reverse slowly, I have met a lot of others who can reverse as well, it is only the front wheels going the wrong way when reversing around a corner that gives you problems but it is still possible if done slowly


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## Compo (Feb 22, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

i tried reversing mine today on a slight uphill and the wheels turned in a lock and i nearly stalled the mh


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## Tezza33 (Feb 23, 2015)

Compo said:


> i tried reversing mine today on a slight uphill and the wheels turned in a lock and i nearly stalled the mh


Practice on a level empty car park and just try going straight back until you have got the hang of that, any slight movement will turn the wheels but once you can go straight it is easier to get the hang of turning corners, it is still easier to try not to get in the situation where you have to reverse though


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## Tezza33 (Feb 23, 2015)

I am not disagreeing with you about the emergency situation David but there are thousands of drivers towing trailers and caravans who cannot reverse them so the same emergency situation would catch them out, I have backed over a kerb unintentionally without the brakes coming on but even so my van is powerful enough to push my car backwards with the brakes on if need be (I know because I forgot to release the handbrake and take it out of gear once) but I have never needed to and I started using an A frame in 1988 so I haven't had a problem in over 30yrs


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## Namder (Feb 24, 2015)

From the current C&CC magazine:

"Club members are being advised not to use an A-frame to tow a car in Europe, following guidance from the DfT.
The 1968 Vienna convention on road traffic says a citizen of one state may use a vehicle in another state as long as it is legal in his or her own country.  However, the DfT says the assumed protections offered by the Treaty do not cover A-frames because they post-date it and are therefore outside its scope.
The Club's Technical Team has been told the UK doesn't intend to implement recent changes to EU light-trailer brakes regulations.  This means that A-frames will remain acceptable within the UK.
Following this clarification, the Club strongly recommends that if members wish to tow a car behind a motorhome in mainland Europe then it must be on a trailer."

Hope this helps
John


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## Compo (Mar 15, 2015)

*a frame towing in europe*

hi all thanks for your thoughts and advice on the subject have now purchased a trailer to use on  European tours and am going to use the a frame in uk were 
i can argue with plod in my native tongue if i need to, best of both worlds i feel.
compo


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## billyhilly (Jul 9, 2015)

*A-FRAME in europe*

we  have just had a A- frame fitted in grimsby by  Towbars-2-Towbars,  the electric brakeing system.
        Graham the founder and designer off the system told us out off all the three and half thousand cars that he has  put this system onto and many have used it abroad and give him feedback, the only country 
       that  has given problems is  SPAIN.  there have been a handful of incidents with spanish police   giveing out fines and forcing the driver to uncouple the system and making the passenger drive the car and follow behind.
           spain has not signed up to the charter   governing this area like the rest of euro  .   make  sure  your passenger has a full driving licence and is on the insurance policy.   
                                      regards    billyhilly :wave:


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