# electrical question - external charging point at home



## MarkJ (Oct 12, 2017)

I've found threads related to this, but not directly answering this point.

I'm getting an outside socket installed at home for charging the m/h. I had a chat with the electrician and we agreed that if it was specifically for this purpose then it needed to be separately earthed; the PME house earth should not be used. That's fine, I understand why - well documented on various forums and websites.

Now, before I knew this I, like probably lots of people, had been gaily plugging the van into a socket in the garage via an 13A/CE adaptor (garage connected to the house PME earth) or into a house socket. Seems to me that if a dedicated charging socket needs a separate earth for safety reasons then plugging in via these adaptors to 'house' 13A sockets is circumventing that safety measure and should not be done. But I've never seen any advice to that effect....and these adaptors are sold very widely.

Any comment from anyone who is an expert?

PS - supplementary question: could this earthing issue be why my garage circuit used to trip when I unplugged the van sometimes?


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

The Electricity Supply Regulations and BS 7671 explicitly ban the use of a TN-C-S or PME earth from being used to supply a motor caravan or caravan, you have obviously got a skilled electrician to do your work

Alf



MarkJ said:


> I've found threads related to this, but not directly answering this point.
> 
> I'm getting an outside socket installed at home for charging the m/h. I had a chat with the electrician and we agreed that if it was specifically for this purpose then it needed to be separately earthed; the PME house earth should not be used. That's fine, I understand why - well documented on various forums and websites.
> 
> ...


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## MarkJ (Oct 12, 2017)

Alf said:


> The Electricity Supply Regulations and BS 7671 explicitly ban the use of a TN-C-C or PME earth from being used to supply a motor caravan or caravan, you have obviously got a skilled electrician to do your work
> 
> Alf



Indeed... But do you think it is a bad idea to plug your van into your house 13A sockets via the widely available adaptors? My logic is that if you need a separate earth to ensure safety when using a 'proper' charging socket then it's not safe to plug into your house sockets via the adaptor.


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## trevskoda (Oct 12, 2017)

MarkJ said:


> Indeed... But do you think it is a bad idea to plug your van into your house 13A sockets via the widely available adaptors? My logic is that if you need a separate earth to ensure safety when using a 'proper' charging socket then it's not safe to plug into your house sockets via the adaptor.



Correct,but im doing it and so are squillions of other folk,but im now on the road to amend this after some help from alf,he knows his stuff.
Campsites in uk should work this way and some boat marinas have a double isolated power transformers,im not sure about other countries in europe,makes you wonder.:scared:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Simple answer Mark Yes,    I don't and I wont plug it in to any I have not tested First. And my outside 16A socket is connected to a Earth Spike.
What everyone else does is up to them. 

Its not a Question of a Charging Socket Any Motorhome or Caravan should only be connected to a supply fed by a Earth Spike and not the earth from the Public Network.

Alf






MarkJ said:


> Indeed... But do you think it is a bad idea to plug your van into your house 13A sockets via the widely available adaptors? My logic is that if you need a separate earth to ensure safety when using a 'proper' charging socket then it's not safe to plug into your house sockets via the adaptor.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Trev  All Caravan Sites in the UK are using Earth Spikes its a Regulation of BS7671 and the Electricity Supply Regulations.



trevskoda said:


> Correct,but im doing it and so are squillions of other folk,but im now on the road to amend this after some help from alf,he knows his stuff.
> Campsites in uk should work this way and some boat marinas have a double isolated power transformers,im not sure about other countries in europe,makes you wonder.:scared:


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## Deleted member 58330 (Oct 12, 2017)

somehow that is really well documented in my house instructions....naaaaaaaat.    So now every time I go and stay with my friends and 'plug in' I will carry a spike as well and dig in a separate earth.  Really some of these rules are pants, as if we are suppose to know anyway.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Mark to answer your supplementary Question

Quote  PS - supplementary question: could this earthing issue be why my garage circuit used to trip when I unplugged the van sometimes? 

Without looking and testing who knows

but the RCD in simple terms is a current balance device if the balance of current in on the live cable is out of balance with the return out on the neutral cable by 30Ma or near enough it will trip if you have a leakage on your garage wiring coupled with a small leakage in your van installation ( there is leakage every where ) the sudden unplugging could just cause an imbalance that would trip the RCD  at least you know it worked !!!

Alf


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

I have seen too many death by electrocutions both unexpected and suicides to agree with you. 

Alf



MidAgeTraveller said:


> somehow that is really well documented in my house instructions....naaaaaaaat.    So now every time I go and stay with my friends and 'plug in' I will carry a spike as well and dig in a separate earth.  Really some of these rules are pants, as if we are suppose to know anyway.


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## yeoblade (Oct 12, 2017)

All interesting stuff, so what are the dangers of doing what zillions of us already do??


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## trevskoda (Oct 12, 2017)

Alf said:


> Trev  All Caravan Sites in the UK are using Earth Spikes its a Regulation of BS7671 and the Electricity Supply Regulations.



Yep alf but what about other countries,im very sus about them and eth spikes let alone which side is hot ,hence i fitted a polarity change over switch in van also.
Better not go into this to deep or the mad axe men will be after me.


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## harrow (Oct 12, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> Yep alf but what about other countries,im very sus about them and eth spikes let alone which side is hot ,hence i fitted a polarity change over switch in van also.
> Better not go into this to deep or the mad axe men will be after me.



Probably if they catch you tapping into their electric supply,

isn't that what street lights are for ?

A handy electric hook up point ?


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Trev use a generator and be safe :sucks:  

Alf





trevskoda said:


> Yep alf but what about other countries,im very sus about them and eth spikes let alone which side is hot ,hence i fitted a polarity change over switch in van also.
> Better not go into this to deep or the mad axe men will be after me.


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## harrow (Oct 12, 2017)

did someone say generator


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## trevskoda (Oct 12, 2017)

harrow said:


> did someone say generator



What,never on this forum in a million years.
Now lets talk about gray water..:scared:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Trev it's. best let out near earth spikes.  :rulez: :yeahthat:

Alf




trevskoda said:


> What,never on this forum in a million years.
> Now lets talk about gray water..:scared:


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## barge1914 (Oct 12, 2017)

*Earthing*



Alf said:


> Trev it's. best let out near earth spikes.  :rulez: :yeahthat:
> 
> Alf



Ok, interesting, but I am waiting with bated breath for a clear joined up explanation of the problem??? I learned a lot about special requirements and risks with boat electrics over the years but have to admit this is a new one for me...and I am sure many others are in the same boat... err...van.


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## trevskoda (Oct 12, 2017)

barge1914 said:


> Ok, interesting, but I am waiting with bated breath for a clear joined up explanation of the problem??? I learned a lot about special requirements and risks with boat electrics over the years but have to admit this is a new one for me...and I am sure many others are in the same boat... err...van.



Alf is correct as the rules go & being safe,anything else is up to ones self.:scared:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 12, 2017)

Hi barge so you know the risks with boats then, are you aware the regulations for boats is basically the same as for caravans. No read the link you may find the joined up explanation satisfies you

Alf



http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/41/marinas.cfm?type=pdf




barge1914 said:


> Ok, interesting, but I am waiting with bated breath for a clear joined up explanation of the problem??? I learned a lot about special requirements and risks with boat electrics over the years but have to admit this is a new one for me...and I am sure many others are in the same boat... err...van.


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## Deleted member 58330 (Oct 12, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Mains electricity has a live wire and a neutral wire when it comes into your house. In theory the neutral is at about earth, but you can't depend on that.
> 
> The electricity company also supply a separate earth voltage connection. That is the wire that all the earth pins on electrical plugs are connected to, so all the metal cases of appliances are connected to it. So whatever derangements happen inside the appliance, you can't touch a live part: just the earth voltage.
> 
> ...



lol, I have a fusebox with wires, 30,20 and 5 A i think....is that illegal as well.  On campsites I am the one that uses 3kw kettle...sometimes I trip something, but most of the time it is fine. I just swap over the cable from another caravan and blame them....


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## rugbyken (Oct 13, 2017)

MidAgeTraveller said:


> lol, I have a fusebox with wires, 30,20 and 5 A i think....is that illegal as well.  On campsites I am the one that uses 3kw kettle...sometimes I trip something, but most of the time it is fine. I just swap over the cable from another caravan and blame them....



oh it was you was it pack it in!!!!


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## ricc (Oct 13, 2017)

only one problem i can see with some previous posts

our leccy comes on overhead wires ... theres two wires come in the house.... wheres this seperate earth wire?   simple answere is it dont exist .   your pme earthing is the neutral wire.   if your having a smart meter installed watch what they connect... house earth and neutral go in the same neutral supply terminal.


to the layman its all unnecessary gobbledegook now we all have rcds protecting  all sockets.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

Please pay attention and Read the posts. This is why you not use a standard household supply to supply a Caravan. 
Alf




ricc said:


> only one problem i can see with some previous posts
> 
> our leccy comes on overhead wires ... theres two wires come in the house.... wheres this seperate earth wire?   simple answere is it dont exist .   your pme earthing is the neutral wire.   if your having a smart meter installed watch what they connect... house earth and neutral go in the same neutral supply terminal.
> 
> ...


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## blights (Oct 13, 2017)

*Confused.Com*

Am I right in thinking that my bus is at risk or so am I of electrocution because if something goes wrong the trip on my RCD in the house and the one on the outside socket and the one in my bus will not go off quick enough to stop my hair standing on end , does this also mean the next time I am singing along to I got the power as I am cutting the lawn plugged into the said same socket that the RCD in the house and the one in the socket outside will not trip quick enough to allow me to stop singing and get ready for the hit, If so I will be on the phone over the weekend asking why I have an RCD in my house and outside and in my bus if they do not work. I was under the assumption that to get a shock the said thing you are in/using develops a fault this is then eleviated via the RCD cutting the power to said item ???? Still confused.com even though I have gone over the question time and again . I must remember to take a spike with me when I go visiting the inlaws and he offers me a hook up point out of his dining room I will leave it there for him when he trims his hedge just in case !


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

I suggest you read the posts fully however to save time follow the link on post 19, read post 20.

Carrying a Earth spike will do no good whilst still connected to a public supply that is TN -C- S.

Mowing your lawn is an entirely different thing and you would be covered by your RCD. For outside sockets for mowers and other power tools I use a 10mA RCD ultra safe.

Alf






blights said:


> Am I right in thinking that my bus is at risk or so am I of electrocution because if something goes wrong the trip on my RCD in the house and the one on the outside socket and the one in my bus will not go off quick enough to stop my hair standing on end , does this also mean the next time I am singing along to I got the power as I am cutting the lawn plugged into the said same socket that the RCD in the house and the one in the socket outside will not trip quick enough to allow me to stop singing and get ready for the hit, If so I will be on the phone over the weekend asking why I have an RCD in my house and outside and in my bus if they do not work. I was under the assumption that to get a shock the said thing you are in/using develops a fault this is then eleviated via the RCD cutting the power to said item ???? Still confused.com even though I have gone over the question time and again . I must remember to take a spike with me when I go visiting the inlaws and he offers me a hook up point out of his dining room I will leave it there for him when he trims his hedge just in case !


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## Deleted member 52918 (Oct 13, 2017)

Umm, the way I see it is that you need a separate earth spike for the van, when using power from an extension lead that's connected to a house etc., 
You need this as when you plug in you are depending on the houses earth wire to be dead, if however there's a fault in the houses electrical system that is being fed to earth via the earthing system in the house, then the extension lead will carry this fault power down the earth wire in the lead & into your van via the consumer unit.

This is ok until you touch the van which is now live & the live power is waiting for a way to get to earth, which is where you come in!
I have a socket tester which informs me of any problems with any EHU's.

Phill

Ps., Alf, if there's an earth spike, would the errant power not go down that rather than the more resistive human body?


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*Earth Spike*

1) I witnessed the installation of the various power circuits here in Thailand
A) a consumer unit from UK with 2 sets of connections 1 set being RCD
B) 2 separate wire feed from the outside Mains multicore cable (ie not a single copper core)
C) an earthing lead from the consumer unit to a substantial copper spike driven into the ground
D) 3 wires were used housed in suitable plastic trunking and thus earthed via the consumer unit

Although the earthing is good it is not as  good as a simple earthing spike directly connected which it what I believe is proposed.
Yes do it .....the additional cost is minimal and is 100% safe

2) In my UK house I also witnessed electrical work and in addition to the ring main earth lots of earth wires were strapped (electrically) to copper piping.
I suggest this is very good earthing but again not as good as a "dedicated spike"
When my motorhome was plugged in it would be to a socket in the garage (thus inside) which again benefitted from "copper pipe" earthing

I am not an electrician but I have a good understanding of the risks and would always defer to a specialist
I suggest "Copper pipe earthing" is reliable but would use a dedicated spike as suggested for an outside point

Is it too much to hope that each outlet on a campsite is indeed "Spiked"
Seems a simpler solution as then only the live and neutral wires need to be run back to the supply ?


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## colinm (Oct 13, 2017)

Just to point out on modern installations copper pipe is not used for earthing, the earthing bonding to them is there to ensure they are earthed.


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## trevskoda (Oct 13, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Just to point out on modern installations copper pipe is not used for earthing, the earthing bonding to them is there to ensure they are earthed.



And a lot of mod houses have plastic heating pipe,not a lot of use.:scared:


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## colinm (Oct 13, 2017)

As a kid I lived for several years in a house with no earth, eventually a live fault developed from which I received several shocks before the council would investigate, the original installation was using the incoming galvenised water pipes for earth, then these where replaced with plastic but no new earth was fitted.


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## trevskoda (Oct 13, 2017)

colinmd said:


> As a kid I lived for several years in a house with no earth, eventually a live fault developed from which I received several shocks before the council would investigate, the original installation was using the incoming galvenised water pipes for earth, then these where replaced with plastic but no new earth was fitted.



Thats why i mentioned water pipes,i have seen hand water heaters earthed to incoming pipe work but that gave way under f/boards to plastic,beware.:scared:


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## colinm (Oct 13, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> Thats why i mentioned water pipes,i have seen hand water heaters earthed to incoming pipe work but that gave way under f/boards to plastic,beware.:scared:



I this case, whilst the incoming pipe was changed to plastic, all the internal pipes where still metal, so when the fault developed the entire plumbing in house became live.
p.s. edited my edit then added this post to better line up with your post.


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## blights (Oct 13, 2017)

Alf said:


> I suggest you read the posts fully however to save time follow the link on post 19, read post 20.
> 
> Carrying a Earth spike will do no good whilst still connected to a public supply that is TN -C- S.
> 
> ...



Read fully and even googled it too yet to find a single thread on the big wide world google that says person electrocuted while their motorhome was on hookup, hence I am still confused.com. I am really confused as well as I have just had my house re-wired from the 1940 era to present times my outside wall socket was checked after I told the sparks what it does ie powers my bus the other socket I use to mow the grass blah blah not once was it mentioned that it is a risk and yes the electricians are legit they are used by the local council and have the main contract for all local council  government buildings I did not find them on the back of a cornflake box all part p registered etc and my house was signed off at the end of it with no warnings of this socket being an issue so that is the reason I am confused. People have been hooking up from their home socket direct let alone without  a proper rcd hook up as I have installed with no problem for years having not found any evidence of an issue and having had mine recently passed as safe I think I shall stick to what I have if others feel the need to go get spikes add earths here there and everywhere to make them super safe that is their choice mine is mine but that is the whole point of a thread to raise concerns and for people to think for themselves if they wish to change their set up or stay as they are. One more thing I often see people when I am out and about with a jenny by the side of their bus running like a trooper i have seen many with no spike in the ground next to them could this also be an issue or does the jenny stop after a while if no spike fitted because a guy I see recently in yorkshire had one going with no spike for about 4 hours with no issue just a thought.


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## ricc (Oct 13, 2017)

the public perception is that any electricity getting to your caravan earth spike will have entered via your caravan rcd, regardless of whether the house, shed, barn or whatever has rcd protection.  surely the caravan rcd will trip as soon as the fault developes. so how are you going to persuad joe public to hammer in an earth spike every time he plugs in his caravan lead?


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*Shocking work*



trevskoda said:


> Thats why i mentioned water pipes,i have seen hand water heaters earthed to incoming pipe work but that gave way under f/boards to plastic,beware.:scared:



Result = SHOCKING 

The ticket collector on local bus service was so bad that he was sentenced to death by electric chair

Guess what he lived...

Scroll down


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Yes he was a bad conductor !!!

As Frank Carson would have said  " It's the way I tell'em "


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## harrow (Oct 13, 2017)

jagmanx said:


> Result = SHOCKING
> 
> The ticket collector on local bus service was so bad that he was sentenced to death by electric chair
> 
> ...


or
he had no potential,


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*That is*



harrow said:


> or
> he had no potential,



Revolting
Or
Watt I meant


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## Tezza33 (Oct 13, 2017)

That is all this forum needs, another livewire


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*We have an*



Tezza33 said:


> That is all this forum needs, another livewire View attachment 58504View attachment 58505



AMPle supply already !
I am going OHM now to battery the wife
Provided I meet with no resistance
but I have the capacitance to overload anyway
Is this a RELAY race
Time to switch off (or something else OFF)


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

You obviously have not read the thread or do not understand .
The Earth Spike goes at the mains supply intake to the Caravan Site. In my case the earth spike is adjacent to my external 16a socket.

JUST TO REPEAT NO MAINS EARTH WIRES ARE A LOW TO ENTER THE MOTOR CARAVAN, CARAVAN OR BOAT.

The only time you may need to put a spike down at a van is for your generator.

I hope this clears it up for you.

Alf





ricc said:


> the public perception is that any electricity getting to your caravan earth spike will have entered via your caravan rcd, regardless of whether the house, shed, barn or whatever has rcd protection.  surely the caravan rcd will trip as soon as the fault developes. so how are you going to persuad joe public to hammer in an earth spike every time he plugs in his caravan lead?


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*As rubber is a good insulator*



Alf said:


> You obviously have not read the thread or do not understand .
> The Earth Spike goes at the mains supply intake to the Caravan Site. In my case the earth spike is adjacent to my external 16a socket.
> 
> JUST TO REPEAT NO MAINS EARTH WIRES ARE A LOW TO ENTER THE MOTOR CARAVAN, CARAVAN OR BOAT.
> ...



Maybe I should drive a spike into one of my tyres !!!
:lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

You obviously employed a poor electrician then.
Earlier in the thread I quoted both the BS7671 regulations your house should have been wired to state that this supply point should NOT be supplied by  TN -C - S supply The Electricity Supply Regulations also state this.
However if your house is one of the few rural properties supplied by a TT. system I will apologise as in this case the whole property should be on a Earth Spike.

This is the downside of allowing electricians to self certify. When this was done by the Electricity Board such work was checked and not connected where defects were noted.

Many years age water pipes and gas pipes were used as a Earth Source this was stepped when plastic pipes started to be used.This becomes a new problem not connected to this thread.






blights said:


> Read fully and even googled it too yet to find a single thread on the big wide world google that says person electrocuted while their motorhome was on hookup, hence I am still confused.com. I am really confused as well as I have just had my house re-wired from the 1940 era to present times my outside wall socket was checked after I told the sparks what it does ie powers my bus the other socket I use to mow the grass blah blah not once was it mentioned that it is a risk and yes the electricians are legit they are used by the local council and have the main contract for all local council  government buildings I did not find them on the back of a cornflake box all part p registered etc and my house was signed off at the end of it with no warnings of this socket being an issue so that is the reason I am confused. People have been hooking up from their home socket direct let alone without  a proper rcd hook up as I have installed with no problem for years having not found any evidence of an issue and having had mine recently passed as safe I think I shall stick to what I have if others feel the need to go get spikes add earths here there and everywhere to make them super safe that is their choice mine is mine but that is the whole point of a thread to raise concerns and for people to think for themselves if they wish to change their set up or stay as they are. One more thing I often see people when I am out and about with a jenny by the side of their bus running like a trooper i have seen many with no spike in the ground next to them could this also be an issue or does the jenny stop after a while if no spike fitted because a guy I see recently in yorkshire had one going with no spike for about 4 hours with no issue just a thought.


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## Full Member (Oct 13, 2017)

*A Fascinating ........*

.......... thread. As I understand it dry soil (and especially soils with a high sand content) have a relatively high resistivity. I've never actually seen an earth spike out of the ground but clearly any current flowing through one must overcome any contact resistance between the spike and soil and also have a relatively low resistance path back to the power supply. I'm wondering what happens to the efficacy of the earth spike in dry soil and in any soil in prolonged dry spells. Are spikes kept moist around the country by teams of waterers or automatic systems?
Here on Shell Island despite the soil having a very high sand content there wouldn't be any cause for concern right now.

Colin


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## jagmanx (Oct 13, 2017)

*The thread is interesting*

However
The VAST majority of electrical devices now come with a 2 pin plug
Obviously live and neutral but indeed should I say neutral and live as there is no way or indeed no need to connect "The right way round"
However 1 the "Blue Motorhome" plugs and sockets are different ! and they use the earth (I believe)
However 2 the european adapters do seem to ensure you get "live to live" but no earth and in some cases the polarity is reversed and this seems to be "No problem"


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

The move to PME happened after privatisation of the Electricity Boards Accountants being in charge now, cheaper cable costs.
Previously when I worked for the Electricity Board every PME job had to be sanctioned by the Ministry of Power as it was then PME was classed as a dangerous way to supply a public network only about 10% of jobs were sanctioned these were the long new lines to outlining farms or remote houses towns and villages never were allowed for safety reasons.

Suddenly an accountant with a laptop and a printer could prove a fraction of a penny saved on cable represented X Millions at the year end. Who do you think won.

Re the electrocution point.

Many years ago I was involved in the death by Electrocution of a teenager, a electrician was charged with manslaughter and sent to prison for 15 years for negligence he had checked the wiring 3 times and could find no fault.
Being called in to test for an appeal I replicated and found the fault 6 houses away they had a faulty kettle and when the daughter visited she stood the kettle on a stainless steel sink ( the mother always stood it on the worktop )  the water main and sink where the fatality occurred was not earth bonded. The fault made the water main live the young man was stood on a stone flagged floor in bare feet he was leaning on the washing machine and placed t.he palm of his hand on the sink top.

The private  electrical inspector for the original case had no idea of the possible dangers of PME now TN-C-S or even knew about the old ways of using metal water mains for a Earth Point.

The electrician was released and found Not Guilty.  The reason we now have Part P is poor wiring by Kitchen fitters Electrocuted a MP's wife 

Alf


PS I will admit now days domestic clectrcution is thankfull few and far between when I worked at the YEB we possibly had 30 to 40 per year poor wiring damp wet terrace house floors most were housewife,s unplugging washing machines and plug head cover loose with wires sticking out of the side and the use of a lighting pendant to plug iron in.
Then a popular spiced was flex with live to one wrist neutral to the other plug into 15a socket ( pre 13a ) switch on and well the smell lasts for days.







hairydog said:


> Up until fairly recently (1970s?) earth spikes were the norm, and for the reasons you identify, they were not ideal.
> 
> Hence the move to PME and an earth from the supply cable.
> 
> ...


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## sparrks (Oct 13, 2017)

The UK Domestic distribution network is largely TN-C-S or what is normally referred to as PME system. Most of the overhead supply what we call the TT system is also actually PME and no longer require an Earth Rod. It is usual to find a label at the REC cut-out determining as to what type it is. The old TT system cables would be strung out between poles rather like overhead telephone cables whereas  the new cables are thick cables twisted together which are called Aerial Bundled Conductors or ABC for short.
The ABC system normally has every 3rd pole or thereabouts staked down to earth (has thick cable running down from the top of the pole and into the ground, marked PME) thus keeping the neutral conductor at earth potential.
I would always install an earth rod over using a PME system, far safer if installed correctly the only reason for not doing that would be if the house was built on sand as one would need to go down many many meters to get the sub 20 Ohm reading required. 

The real danger from PME systems is a break in the neutral conductor just outside your property and before any stake to earth which would result in anything connected to your properties earthing system would be at mains potential - ie 230v

Many older properties have a TN-S system this is the old lead sheathed cables and in my view much safer but more costly to buy and install but even these can be or are fed from a PME supply.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

Hence the chance of a fault in 2 16A lug and sockets making the van body live at 230V a double whammy eh!!

Cable were installed in a different way by the supply authorities now its Trev' s  mates dragging in with big yanks from a lorry laying on rough hardcore and covering with the same not all cables being in ducts. Most of the underground infrastructure of the UK being laid in the 20's 30's and 40's  when the local Electricity Board Engineer worked out a sum and doubled it for cable size. Cables laid on sand covered by cable tile's this network has and is still working and has not reached peak load. Now day's newer cables are going faulty  due to poor installation and poor crimped joints. Its now all about costs.
I have seen a 1000 men digging and laying cables 2 barbers employed cutting labourers hair as they broke off digging each man 3 yard of trench to dig then to the front of the trench.

Those days have gone.

Alf




sparrks said:


> The UK Domestic distribution network is largely TN-C-S or what is normally referred to as PME system. Most of the overhead supply what we call the TT system is also actually PME and no longer require an Earth Rod. It is usual to find a label at the REC cut-out determining as to what type it is. The old TT system cables would be strung out between poles rather like overhead telephone cables whereas  the new cables are thick cables twisted together which are called Aerial Bundled Conductors or ABC for short.
> The ABC system normally has every 3rd pole or thereabouts stacked down to earth (has thick cable running down from the top of the pole and into the ground, marked PME) thus keeping the neutral conductor at earth potential.
> I would always install an earth rod over using a PME system, far safer if installed correctly the only reason for not doing that would be if the house was built on sand as one would need to go down many many meters to get the sub 20 Ohm reading required.
> 
> ...


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## barge1914 (Oct 13, 2017)

*Earthing*



Alf said:


> I suggest you read the posts fully however to save time follow the link on post 19, read post 20.
> 
> Carrying a Earth spike will do no good whilst still connected to a public supply that is TN -C- S.
> 
> ...



The reference in post 19 makes interesting reading and is all very familiar,  and in part, but not all, is relevant also to the risks and precautions pertinent to campsite and caravan wiring (they don't float). In such circumstances you have extensive dispersed site networks beyond the public network exposed to considerable physical and environmental risks, not to mention the tens or even hundreds of dodgy old electric systems in the boats or caravans leaking who knows what currents into the earth system. Little wonder local earthing is recommended. Individual supply sockets should be protected by rcds, but plentiful installations exist where several sockets share one rcd...so potentially you share your neighbours ills.

Certainly in my barge I could often detect a small but measurable voltage difference between the hull of the barge to which everything metal was bonded (and which itself floated in a very large wet 'earth' of variable conductivity) and the earth of the shore power supply. It was never so great (usually less than 0.5V) to have to been a personal safety issue, but certainly enough to eat the hell out of the hull through galvanic corrosion if I hadn't fitted an isolation transformer.

Post 20 gives a succinct summary of the risks regarding house earthing. 

I think it is all a matter of proportion, and depends on how much confidence you can have in the earth of the electrical installation to which you are connected. If you are installing a socket somewhere remote from the house the risk to the intervening wiring is greater and a local earth spike  near the socket seems prudent. If you plug into a socket inside the house or an attached garage and you know the house wiring is good, then the likelihood of a significant earth differential is small. The greatest risk then comes from damage to the earth wire in your much used and abused hook-up cable (which is always a risk wherever you are). In which case your greatest friend as ever is the rcd in your van. But the rcd in the house no doubt gives belt and braces protection.

I am on less certain ground with van electrics, but I doubt all extraneous metal is grounded to the chassis, and I am uncertain that the incoming earth wire is so bonded either. Certainly the neutral and earth are not (nor  are permitted to be) connected in the van...which could lead to an anomaly when using a generator. Because when they are connected you can be sure the nominally live wire will give 230V and the neutral 0V. Otherwise, subject to how the generator is wired, whilst you will still have 230V between the live and neutral you could well have 110V on both 'live' and neutral relative to the earth (the rcd will be unaware of this) which is another other good reason not to have any single pole switches in a van or on any electrical equipment. 

Of course if you really worry about all these things you may want to protect all the delicate electronics in your van, audio and computer equipment against 'spikes' in the mains supply with a surge protection plug. 

Life is short to worry too much....however get it too far wrong and it could be even shorter!!!

 Time for bed said Zebadee....


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## trevskoda (Oct 13, 2017)

Tezza33 said:


> That is all this forum needs, another livewire View attachment 58504View attachment 58505



And his name was spike though not sure if he was ac or dc wink wink.but he was the salt of the EARTH:lol-053:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

The standard earth spike the was 1/2” Dia and 4’ long it had threads at each end you screwd a hardened steel point at one end and a hardened end the other to hammer into the earth. You needed an earth resistance meter to test earth resistance over 50 and 100 yards if poor you screwed another 4’  length and knocked that in the ground unscrupulous electrician would find out when we were coming to test and pour gallons of water around the earth spike when we found this out we would call earlier or leave it a week. Even in dry ground it was only a few times the second length of rod was needed.

Alf




Full Member said:


> .......... thread. As I understand it dry soil (and especially soils with a high sand content) have a relatively high resistivity. I've never actually seen an earth spike out of the ground but clearly any current flowing through one must overcome any contact resistance between the spike and soil and also have a relatively low resistance path back to the power supply. I'm wondering what happens to the efficacy of the earth spike in dry soil and in any soil in prolonged dry spells. Are spikes kept moist around the country by teams of waterers or automatic systems?
> Here on Shell Island despite the soil having a very high sand content there wouldn't be any cause for concern right now.
> 
> Colin


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## runnach (Oct 13, 2017)

What an interesting post, myself only vaguely competent with electrics but a couple of observations. 

Within my specialism there are rules that are consistently broken (often echoed with pretty poor advice offered here by some people who frankly I wouldn't trust swopping the wheel on a skateboard) The sad part we take it as acceptable practice. I suspect the same with electrics.

Two people here that have posted are experienced electricians , time served and spent a career witnessing and working with evolving electrics and explain why the regulations are as they are. Questioning their wisdom to gain an understanding is one thing, But some people questioning because they cant find evidence on google I find pathetic. 

Amazing time served sparkies that have forgot more than most of us know , yet some muppets comment and question with the experience of sweet FA 

Like I said just an observation 

Channa


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## yeoblade (Oct 13, 2017)

OK convinced, Toolstation tomorrow, and my personal EHU will be spiked only problem will be I'll have to drill through 8" of concrete or a long earth lead.


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## harrow (Oct 13, 2017)

yeoblade said:


> OK convinced, Toolstation tomorrow, and my personal EHU will be spiked only problem will be I'll have to drill through 8" of concrete or a long earth lead.



Why go to toolstation ?

Go down your garden centre,

they sell earth  

:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:


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## harrow (Oct 13, 2017)

yeoblade said:


> OK convinced, Toolstation tomorrow, and my personal EHU will be spiked only problem will be I'll have to drill through 8" of concrete or a long earth lead.


Watch out for below ground hidden water pipes, 

gas pipes, 

buried telephone cables,

drainage and of course 

hidden below ground electric cables.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

Drill the concrete you will have good wet earth below. Nowadays everybody sell the cheap 10mm x 1m copper plated steel rodearth rod . If you have a City Electrical Factors nearby try them for a proper Earth Rod don’t forget to get the copper earth clamp for the rod.

Alf





yeoblade said:


> OK convinced, Toolstation tomorrow, and my personal EHU will be spiked only problem will be I'll have to drill through 8" of concrete or a long earth lead.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

Well said Andy but you don’t qualify you are only a tradesman their advice does not seem to count

Alf




channa said:


> What an interesting post, myself only vaguely competent with electrics but a couple of observations.
> 
> Within my specialism there are rules that are consistently broken (often echoed with pretty poor advice offered here by some people who frankly I wouldn't trust swopping the wheel on a skateboard) The sad part we take it as acceptable practice. I suspect the same with electrics.
> 
> ...


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## GWAYGWAY (Oct 13, 2017)

Am I wrong having an earth spike at the socket AND also having the earth wire back to the distributor board for my workshop all read good for earth, but allows the  earth contacts.three paths to  the earth. ONE to the main input for the house , TWO an earth spike in the house basement for the distributor box  .  THREE workshop  spike from the workshop  distributor board and also the one at the socket for the van in the log-shed????????????  next thing it will be too many earths and remove some??   also the generator matter the current made by that device will need to be earthed to it self to rip the  load I suppose you could stick and Earth rod into the ground next to it  but would the current go that way. After all the three phases of main feed are alternated down the street and use common earth as a return for the current through the sheath.  It must be earthed local to the mains somewhere along the line with the company earth, does and additional rod make any difference as long an the  earth line is solid in connection, all the way down the line, tested by a megger.


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## trevskoda (Oct 13, 2017)

harrow said:


> Watch out for below ground hidden water pipes,
> 
> gas pipes,
> 
> ...



Or a ww2 bomb.:scared:


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## trevskoda (Oct 13, 2017)

GWAYGWAY said:


> Am I wrong having an earth spike at the socket AND also having the earth wire back to the distributor board for my workshop all read good for earth, but allows the  earth contacts.three paths to  the earth. ONE to the main input for the house , TWO an earth spike in the house basement for the distributor box  .  THREE workshop  spike from the workshop  distributor board and also the one at the socket for the van in the log-shed????????????  next thing it will be too many earths and remove some??   also the generator matter the current made by that device will need to be earthed to it self to rip the  load I suppose you could stick and Earth rod into the ground next to it  but would the current go that way. After all the three phases of main feed are alternated down the street and use common earth as a return for the current through the sheath.  It must be earthed local to the mains somewhere along the line with the company earth, does and additional rod make any difference as long an the  earth line is solid in connection, all the way down the line, tested by a megger.



I think the eth spike is for just in case to be honest,but it is the rules.
Rules are for germans, pints for the lads and a little fruit juice for the girls.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

You don’t connect the supply cable Earth to the socket cut it off or tape it up to isolate it.
Just put the earth spike cable into the socket.

However as you say you have earth spikes already you may be on a TT system which you can use the existing spike.

But be aware many old TT supplies have been converted by the supply authorities without notification to customers so my advice would be put down a spike adjacent to each outside socket but DO NOT USE THE EARTH CABLE IN THE CABLE SUPPLYING THE SOCKET ISOLATE THIS AT THE SOCKET.
The earth in the cable being just to protect the cable up to the socket.

Alf





GWAYGWAY said:


> Am I wrong having an earth spike at the socket AND also having the earth wire back to the distributor board for my workshop all read good for earth, but allows the  earth contacts.three paths to  the earth. ONE to the main input for the house , TWO an earth spike in the house basement for the distributor box  .  THREE workshop  spike from the workshop  distributor board and also the one at the socket for the van in the log-shed????????????  next thing it will be too many earths and remove some??


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

It’s a condition of Wiring and Caravan Regulations that all metal body work is bonded to the incoming earth connection the main bonding connection should noted and displayed by the consumer unit and in suppling documents.

NOW TAKE NOTE you say the bodywork is not connected to Neutral if you use a PME supply this is So this is what the regulation is about.
At your supply intake 98% of uk supplied bond earth and neutral in the intake unit ( you may find a label telling you this ) so bonded earth neutral at the mains this means all the house wiring is neutral earth bonded right up to your external or otherwise caravan socket. Now to your caravan via your hook up lead so metal caravan or van body now connected to neutral earth bond.


See next post how to test RCD.

Alf




Quote by barge 1914

I am on less certain ground with van electrics, but I doubt all extraneous metal is grounded to the chassis, and I am uncertain that the incoming earth wire is so bonded either. Certainly the neutral and earth are not (nor are permitted to be) connected in the van...which could lead to an anomaly when using a generator. Because when they are connected you can be sure the nominally live wire will give 230V and the neutral 0V. Otherwise, subject to how the generator is wired, whilst you will still have 230V between the live and neutral you could well have 110V on both 'live' and neutral relative to the earth (the rcd will be unaware of this) which is another other good reason not to have any single pole switches in a van or on any electrical


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

*How to Test RCD*

There is a test button on all RCD unfortunately most of these just test the mechanical linkage not the electrical one. Most van owners are fairly competant but don’t own a RCD tester.
Take a length of two core flex fit a BC lap holder at one end fit a 13a standard plug head at the other but wire between live and earth ( nothing to neutral ) now get a 10 or 15w lamp ( a 5watt would be best ) hook up turn power on test to make sure all working. Plug your test lead in ( socket turned off ) Turn socket on Trip should work if not faulty 

For the more brave no I had better not mention touching a live cable to test had I

A heath Robinson test but better than non. There are not many habitation tester that have RCD tester if any they only press the RCD test button that proves hardly anything.

Alf


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## sparrks (Oct 13, 2017)

Alf said:


> It’s a codition of Wiring and Caravan Regulations that all metal body work is bonded to the incoming earth connection the main bonding connection should noted and displayed by the consumer unit and in suppling documents.
> 
> NOW TAKE NOTE you say the bodywork is not connected to Neutral if you use a PME supply this is So this is what the regulation is about.
> At your supply intake 98% of uk supplied bond earth and neutral in the intake unit ( you may find a label telling you this ) so bonded earth neutral at the mains this means all the house wiring is neutral earth bonded right up to your external or otherwise caravan socket. Now to your caravan via your hook up lead so metal caravan or van body now connected to neutral earth bond.
> ...



Alf




Poor scenario, that wouldn't happen unless you PME'd your van - the break in the neutral conductor is the wrong side of the earth/neutral connection. If I understood you correctly you are referring to a hookup lead out to the van? a radial supply? if the neutral breaks on that cable or pulls out of the connector the earthed metal work in the van is still earthed via the cpc in the hookup cable and the PME connection at the incomer the neutral conductor up to the break point would be live.
The problem is if the break is the REC side of the cutout and before an earthing point on the network.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 13, 2017)

Amended 



sparrks said:


> Alf
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Micky (Oct 14, 2017)

*Sorting earth*

Morning alf,I have read this blog with great interest and shock re my lack of understanding of the way I have been charging my motorhome on the drive for the past three years,ie from my house plug.silly me,wife,kids, friends, visiting.So here's my plan,I can get rod or rods, correct strap's,infact all needed.i will position in front garden next to motorhome driven down into ground  correctly.When charging MH I will also connect jump lead from flush fitted rod in the ground to MH chassis.question,will that be ok.thanks for yours and everyone s help bringing this to our attention.mick:rolleyes2


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 14, 2017)

Hi Micky No that is unsatisfactory.By rights you need an external Blue 16a socket ( you could have just a external 13a socket ) when this is installed you Do Not connect the Eath wire to the socket. You connect the earth connection to the Earth Rod or Spike. The van Must Not reconnected the Electricity Supply Earth.

Alf



QUOTE=Micky;873391]Morning alf,I have read this blog with great interest and shock re my lack of understanding of the way I have been charging my motorhome on the drive for the past three years,ie from my house plug.silly me,wife,kids, friends, visiting.So here's my plan,I can get rod or rods, correct strap's,infact all needed.i will position in front garden next to motorhome driven down into ground  correctly.When charging MH I will also connect jump lead from flush fitted rod in the ground to MH chassis.question,will that be ok.thanks for yours and everyone s help bringing this to our attention.mick:rolleyes2[/QUOTE]


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## Micky (Oct 14, 2017)

*Sorted*



alf said:


> hi micky no that is unsatisfactory.by rights you need an external blue 16a socket ( you could have just a external 13a socket ) when this is installed you do not connect the eath wire to the socket. You connect the earth connection to the earth rod or spike. The van must not reconnected the electricity supply earth.
> 
> Alf
> 
> ...


[/quote]


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## MarkJ (Oct 14, 2017)

Interesting thread this has turned into.

Everyone can make their own minds up, based on the facts presented. But for my part, once I know about this I have to do it properly. I know how I would feel in the (admittedly unlikely) event of something going wrong and I had known what to do but hadn't bothered to do it.

In case anyone is interested, the extra cost of having an electrician supply a separate earth is about £50....

I'm still puzzled why in this age of wall to wall health and safety advice there's no mention of this when you buy adaptors, hook up cables, or even that I can find in my van manual. You get 10 pages of safety advice when you buy a toaster, so you'd think this might merit a mention somewhere!


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## yeoblade (Oct 14, 2017)

Alf said:


> There is a test button on all RCD unfortunately most of these just test the mechanical linkage not the electrical one. Most van owners are fairly competant but don’t own a RCD tester.
> Take a length of two core flex fit a BC lap holder at one end fit a 13a standard plug head at the other but wire between live and earth ( nothing to neutral ) now get a 10 or 15w lamp ( a 5watt would be best ) hook up turn power on test to make sure all working. Plug your test lead in ( socket turned off ) Turn socket on Trip should work if not faulty
> 
> For the more brave no I had better not mention touching a live cable to test had I
> ...



Alf, Or maybe buy one of these, not too dear, assuming they are  OK

Schneider 13 Amp Socket Tester with RCD Circuit Testing and Status Coding Table   | eBay


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## harrow (Oct 14, 2017)

Who is going to measure the Z of these diy earth spikes ?

I think you are better off employing a qualified electrician with the necessary test equipment or leave things alone.

:sad:


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## blights (Oct 14, 2017)

channa said:


> What an interesting post, myself only vaguely competent with electrics but a couple of observations.
> 
> Within my specialism there are rules that are consistently broken (often echoed with pretty poor advice offered here by some people who frankly I wouldn't trust swopping the wheel on a skateboard) The sad part we take it as acceptable practice. I suspect the same with electrics.
> 
> ...



Ewwwww great a muppet can I be Gonzo I loved Gonzo


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## runnach (Oct 14, 2017)

blights said:


> Ewwwww great a muppet can I be Gonzo I loved Gonzo


 only if I can be Randolph a grumpy old git on the balcony !!!

Channa


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## runnach (Oct 14, 2017)

hairydog said:


> All but one of the dangerous, badly installed, regulation-breaching electrical installations I've discovered were fitted by supposedly qualified and skilled electricians. Very worrying.


 It is a worry that some tradespeople cut corners, from a customer not in the know . how do they know what is good solid advice etc, especially when customers are concerned with cost. Sometimes you get what you pay for. 

Would I trust a tradesman over some of the half baked ideas volunteered by people here ? probably I think whilst no guarantee , any trade it is always best if you can find someone on recommendation. 

I was on a sale site the other day someone bleating about the quality of a wallpapering job, frankly shoddy my 4 year old would struggle to do a worse job .but everyone can paper right ? all experts. My father time served 7 years even today knock most "decorators " in a cocked can, As a kid took me on jobs I can paper but to professional standard ? ego says I can reality is I cant I think that is true of most trades 

Channa


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## trevskoda (Oct 14, 2017)

Thanks alf i have it in my head now so when i get home f box sorted i will amend a blue socket and eth spike.:cheers:


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## barge1914 (Oct 14, 2017)

*Earthing*



Alf said:


> It’s a condition of Wiring and Caravan Regulations that all metal body work is bonded to the incoming earth connection the main bonding connection should noted and displayed by the consumer unit and in suppling documents.
> 
> NOW TAKE NOTE you say the bodywork is not connected to Neutral if you use a PME supply this is So this is what the regulation is about.
> At your supply intake 98% of uk supplied bond earth and neutral in the intake unit ( you may find a label telling you this ) so bonded earth neutral at the mains this means all the house wiring is neutral earth bonded right up to your external or otherwise caravan socket. Now to your caravan via your hook up lead so metal caravan or van body now connected to neutral earth bond.
> ...



Hi thanks for the clarification Alf, I'll check this is the case on mine to be sure all is ok. If you have any comments on the other points I made I'll be happy to hear them...always something new to learn! I am curious as to how the common types of small generator such as the Hondas are wired up as far as neutral an earth are concerned, whether or not they give a 115/115v split or 230/0V. As clearly here one is divorced from the neutral-earth bonding as described by you  at the intake unit.


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## trevskoda (Oct 14, 2017)

Alf said:


> Hi Micky No that is unsatisfactory.By rights you need an external Blue 16a socket ( you could have just a external 13a socket ) when this is installed you Do Not connect the Eath wire to the socket. You connect the earth connection to the Earth Rod or Spike. The van Must Not reconnected the Electricity Supply Earth.
> 
> Alf
> 
> ...


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## trevskoda (Oct 14, 2017)

barge1914 said:


> Hi thanks for the clarification Alf, I'll check this is the case on mine to be sure all is ok. If you have any comments on the other points I made I'll be happy to hear them...always something new to learn! I am curious as to how the common types of small generator such as the Hondas are wired up as far as neutral an earth are concerned, whether or not they give a 115/115v split or 230/0V. As clearly here one is divorced from the neutral-earth bonding as described by you  at the intake unit.



My small gen states to always use a earth rod,and there is a output connector for this.


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## Fletch6 (Oct 15, 2017)

.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Oct 15, 2017)

Well here you with another contentious   subject  most Honda's as far as I am aware have Neutral bonded to Earth.
If you run a genny and connect to your van AS a good rule of thumb the RCD won't trip on earth fault there is no earth return.
In order to get the RCD working you will need a Earth Spike or Rod not a piddly 6" I have seen people use but at least a couple of foot or so connected to the Earth connection on the genny.
Generally if no earth point it's not bonded to Neutral.

 There are Two schools of thought on this subject one to use a spike and have the benefit of RCD etc.

The other if you are running off a supply with no  neutral bond there is No earth return dos you cannot get a shock.

If you use even a good inverter genny be aware if you start to run out of fuel the voltage is all over the place as the engine starts to hunt.

Alf


barge1914 said:


> Hi thanks for the clarification Alf, I'll check this is the case on mine to be sure all is ok. If you have any comments on the other points I made I'll be happy to hear them...always something new to learn! I am curious as to how the common types of small generator such as the Hondas are wired up as far as neutral an earth are concerned, whether or not they give a 115/115v split or 230/0V. As clearly here one is divorced from the neutral-earth bonding as described by you  at the intake unit.


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