# Schengen Travel & Spanish Residency



## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

So we have Spanish residencia but are of course still British citizens with British passport . How does it work if we wish to visit other Schengen countries like Portugal ?

Eg , say we do 6 months in Spain then want to go to Portugal for a month will that be technically allowed , I know that in practice without a border control no one will probably know unless we have a problem ? 

Would be interested to know or receive any views .

Many Thanks


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## jagmanx (May 4, 2020)

As you entitled to live in Spain with zero restriction or time limit
In theory you should get 3 months in Schengen but outside of Spain..BUT who know.
One of the many glitches that will get sorted eventually !


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

Thanks jagmanx thats what I assumed and hoped for . Being devils advocate I was wondering if Portugal could say "Ah you are a citizen from a non schengen country and you have been in the schengen area for more than 90 days so you cant come in" ! I know probably more theoretical than practical but interested just the same . Maybe there are some members on here who are schengen country residents but come from a non schengen  non EU country  ?


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## jagmanx (May 4, 2020)

It could also be argued that with Spanish residencia you are already in Schengen and therefore unlimited !
Depends on whether passport overules residence or vice-versa..

More money for lawyers ?????


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## runnach (May 4, 2020)

I would think that your nationality will take precedence over residency. If anything bad were to happen to you the British embassy/consulate would be first point of contact


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

Yes , I have thought that too so as far as the Portugese are concerned I am British so must abide by Schengen rules and not come until I have returned to the UK for 3 months ?


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## jagmanx (May 4, 2020)

The same would apply to France !
Thus you cannot drive your camper back to UK via France ! ( having been in Spain for  x months)

PS I guess for now and early 2021 you will be OK as I think the 1st 3 month will only begin on Jan1st 2021 (or the day before)
So the powers that be have several months to sort it
Do NOT hold your breath !


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## yorkieowl (May 4, 2020)

I think after Covid they will possibly change the rules as they will lose a lot of tourism as it is with the restrictions on flights (social distancing), and people not wanting to fly, which the economy relies on.


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## kenspain (May 4, 2020)

I got residents in Spain and Portugal but it took me some time to get it I live in Portugal 5 months of the year the rest in Spain.


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## REC (May 4, 2020)

Following with interest as we are in same position in Portugal! Keep checking but nobody seems to know/ care about this situation. Only those permanently in an EU Schengen country.


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## colinm (May 4, 2020)

Don't know the answer, but the rules on this will already exist, ask the nearest Russian nabour, they should know.


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## korky (May 4, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> I think after Covid they will possibly change the rules as they will lose a lot of tourism as it is with the restrictions on flights (social distancing), and people not wanting to fly, which the economy relies on.


Can't see the rules changing at all. The 90 day rule does not affect your average tourist.The few Brits who long term in Europe in vans are inconsequential in the scheme of things and not on their radar.


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## Fazerloz (May 4, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> So we have Spanish residencia but are of course still British citizens with British passport . How does it work if we wish to visit other Schengen countries like Portugal ?
> 
> Eg , say we do 6 months in Spain then want to go to Portugal for a month will that be technically allowed , I know that in practice without a border control no one will probably know unless we have a problem ?
> 
> ...



Where is your primary residence. UK or Spain.


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## Snapster (May 4, 2020)

We live in France having moved from the UK a couple of years ago and are French residents. As we are not yet French Nationals, as far as I can make out we are subject to the Schengen rules as they apply to UK citizens. 
If we take up French Citizenship, we will not be subject to the 90 day limit.


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> Where is your primary residence. UK or Spain.


Well now we have taken Spanish resisancy I think it has to be Spain ........... but I could be pursuaded to be flexible . Just wanted to guarantee more than 3 months in Europe at a time . I like to try and be legal if I can.


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

colinmd said:


> Don't know the answer, but the rules on this will already exist, ask the nearest Russian nabour, they should know.


Sorry dont know any Russian neighbours and actually dont think I have met any on my travels , but I know what you mean. I think there are still a lot of illegals in Spain who dont go home andtry and  keep their noses clean  .


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> The same would apply to France !
> Thus you cannot drive your camper back to UK via France ! ( having been in Spain for  x months)
> 
> PS I guess for now and early 2021 you will be OK as I think the 1st 3 month will only begin on Jan1st 2021 (or the day before)
> ...


That is a really good point , guess I might just have to drive fast. Anyway at least I am trying to be legal . I guess when coming back I will only get caught at British customs at Dover ? Remains to be seen if Boris's mob will want to fine me or lock me up !


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## jacquigem (May 4, 2020)

kenspain said:


> I got residents in Spain and Portugal but it took me some time to get it I live in Portugal 5 months of the year the rest in Spain.


I am thinking that unless they introduce border controls between Spain and Portugal it should be quite easy to flit between the two . Are you still on British Passport ?


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## kenspain (May 4, 2020)

REC said:


> Following with interest as we are in same position in Portugal! Keep checking but nobody seems to know/ care about this situation. Only those permanently in an EU Schengen country.





jacquigem said:


> I am thinking that unless they introduce border controls between Spain and Portugal it should be quite easy to flit between the two . Are you still on British Passport ?


I never take my passport with me all I show if asked is my resident card never had any problems with that been stopped once when I went into Portugal and they excepted it


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## ian81 (May 4, 2020)

Will Schengen still exist? What controls will exist to monitor coming and going? What level of enforcement will there be? Like so much it is all up in the air.


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## Snapster (May 4, 2020)

ian81 said:


> Will Schengen still exist? What controls will exist to monitor coming and going? What level of enforcement will there be? Like so much it is all up in the air.


Schengen will exist whatever happens and there will be no change to the Schengen regulations, the only difference will be that UK passport holders will be treated differently ( Third Country Nationals) unless the UK government manages to work out some separate agreement, which I doubt.
You may care to read all about the Schengen Regulations in the link below to answer your questions. Make yourself a cuppa and choose a comfy chair!


REC said:


> Following with interest as we are in same position in Portugal! Keep checking but nobody seems to know/ care about this situation. Only those permanently in an EU Schengen country.


I have posted a link below which will let you read the whole of the latest Schengen Regulations
Article 6 is the closest answer I can find to your question, but it’s not as clear as I would like. I’d be interested to see what you make of it?





__





						EUR-Lex - 32016R0399 - EN - EUR-Lex
					






					eur-lex.europa.eu


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## colinm (May 4, 2020)

This seems to apply.


> If you are a non-EU national wishing to visit or travel within the EU, you will need a passport:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

ian81 said:


> Will Schengen still exist? What controls will exist to monitor coming and going? What level of enforcement will there be? Like so much it is all up in the air.


Well I dont see why other countries will get rid of the benefits of free travel , it was just the Brits that got upset about it . Passports will still be scanned at mahor airports ,ports and tunnels as before  I suspect . I believe Im right in that Schengen was around before EU (someone may put me right on this) .It would be nice for us if free travel was reintroduced but I cant see Boris chasing this .


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

colinmd said:


> This seems to apply.


I think you missed out the bit above

Article 6

Entry conditions for third-country nationals

1.   For intended stays on the territory of the Member States of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period, which entails considering the 180-day period preceding each day of stay, the entry conditions for third-country nationals shall be the following:


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## Snapster (May 5, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> Well I dont see why other countries will get rid of the benefits of free travel , it was just the Brits that got upset about it . Passports will still be scanned at mahor airports ,ports and tunnels as before  I suspect . I believe Im right in that Schengen was around before EU (someone may put me right on this) .It would be nice for us if free travel was reintroduced but I cant see Boris chasing this .


Boris doesn’t want free travel within the EU so it’s extremely unlikely this will be changed. The Schengen Agreement was signed in 1985 and the Schengen Area was created in 1995. 
The EU was established in 1993 and the EEC in 1957. 
UK joined the EEC in 1973.


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> The same would apply to France !
> Thus you cannot drive your camper back to UK via France ! ( having been in Spain for  x months)
> 
> PS I guess for now and early 2021 you will be OK as I think the 1st 3 month will only begin on Jan1st 2021 (or the day before)
> ...


 Yes , I guess might have to miss France out entirely (shame) and go for long Spain UK Ferry or leave van in Spain and fly ?


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

Yes as others have posted "Schengen may well take priority" !  Signed 14 June 1985 
Get the Ferry to UK with the van. Then use the tunnel when you have a new  90 days and explore France then Residence in Spain.
Fit Portugal in some-time similarly or "Go Illegal"
PIA I am sure you expected residency to overcome but probably not.

There are so many differing layers of bureaucracy
You can get multiple schengen entries


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## colinm (May 5, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> I think you missed out the bit above
> 
> Article 6
> 
> ...



Maybe I need to explain further, the time you spend in the Schengen area can be extended if you have a Visa, (this is not usually given for holidays), the quote I posted says a residence permit is equivalent to a visa.


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

Thanks Colin.
That seems similar to my comment I made earlier that with Residencia (Spain or any Schengen country) you have no limits

Your statement
"the quote I posted says a residence permit is equivalent to a visa" is the clue (as you infer)


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## Drover (May 5, 2020)

Spain will not want any limit on UK residents visiting their country and they have said this not me.









						Spain: tourists by country of origin 2021 | Statista
					

France and Germany were the main countries of origin for international tourism in Spain in 2021.




					www.statista.com
				



Most European countries want free holiday travel , work or moving to their countries is another matter. 
No one will know the answers until a deal is done or it's a no deal.


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

Thank you all for your comments . I believed I could stay in Spain indefinately with the residencia . Will probably be able to see portugal and france as no border controls . But , (and I am sorry for raising this !)  if i go back to the UK having spent >90 days in Schengen will I have to stay in UK for at least 90 days before being allowed back in by French customs . So nipping back for a quick family celebration(?!) might not be possible .


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

As I read it your residency in Spain allows re-entry with no time considerations !
You are travelling home !
No problem with UK (Passport)


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## Drover (May 5, 2020)

jacquigem said:


> Thank you all for your comments . I believed I could stay in Spain indefinately with the residencia . Will probably be able to see portugal and france as no border controls . But , (and I am sorry for raising this !)  if i go back to the UK having spent >90 days in Schengen will I have to stay in UK for at least 90 days before being allowed back in by French customs . So nipping back for a quick family celebration(?!) might not be possible .


The big word in this is MIGHT, and this is all you get from the UK government at this present time... "might"
We have family living in Spain who have UK passports and they know nothing ... other than Spain is going to offer an easy route to become Spanish nationals avoiding the 10 year wait... though I dont have the details.


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

Post # 33
Yes Might/maybe..Nobody knows..But Euroland has to obey the European court of Human Rights
I would expect this to safeguard all "non-EEC" nationals (UK USA Brazil etc etc) with residential rights in EEC countries !
Indeed when we visited Portugal; by air there was a special channel for Brazil (not surprisingly)


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

chrisjones18 said:


> The big word in this is MIGHT, and this is all you get from the UK government at this present time... "might"
> We have family living in Spain who have UK passports and they know nothing ... other than Spain is going to offer an easy route to become Spanish nationals avoiding the 10 year wait... though I dont have the details.


We read something similar and thats why we decided to get our residency before the transition period ends . My understanding is that my current green residency card will get replaced by a new residency plastic card when the transition period ends . Then I think after 5 years(?) I can apply for Spanish citizenship if I want to . After the transition period I am told it will be harder to get residency , stricter controls on income and capital and maybe Spanish language exams.


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

You seem well placed
Can you have both Spanish and UK citizenship ?
Spanish as a language is OK (unlike THAI)


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

Not sure I really want Spanish citizenship . To be resident I am supposed to spend more than 6 months in the country so not sure how you can be legally resident in more than one country , but I am no expert and trying to learn all the time . We have a little Spanish but to be honest we tend to spend most of our time in English speaking areas and then have become quite good at sign language . I was today describing a blow up spa pool to a young Spanish girl ! We thought about Thailand as a way round Shengin but then we acquired a dog and it just got to complicated . So yes I think we are happy with what we have got but it has cost us a few bob including private health cover and moving our tax status to Spain.


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

I (we) can only live (very well) in Thailand because my wife (Nida) is THAI.
So SHE owns the land the house the car and most of the businees is in her name
I have a solo Thai bank account which is needed for my visa (£20,000 in Bank)
She has a book for the house (in her name) and I need to show that every year to renew my (1 year Visa)
As such I do not have residence but a 1 year (hopefully) recurring visa.
Without her and her language skills (Thai and English) it would be very difficult !
There are others (similar) who we know and met but again the UK person is in practice dependent on the Thai national.
Yes some expats without a spouse seem to manage ?
Nida is a few years younger than me..It is likely I will die before her !
Health insurance
At the moment we pay for 6 months a time (Thailand and Europe) not exactly but £1000 a year


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

Sounds good , difficult to move in and out with a dog I suspect ?


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## jagmanx (May 5, 2020)

Next to impossible...No impossible
Also dogs and cats are not thought of as pets !
We have an "orphan cat" which Nida's son rescued.
It is treated as a pet and is OK.
Nida's son ("Our son" but from her first Thai husband)) remains in Thailand when we use motorhome in UK
BUT he has a UK passport (AND that is a very very long story)
He is now 26 and has just got his degree (in Thailand) but of course NO JOBS
PS a bit hot now 40deg plus in the day and still 36 37 38 Now ! and humid
Anyway a nice meal earlier and aircon on in the bedroom!


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

Yeah that would be too hot for us , but sounds a great country anyway


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## antiquesam (May 5, 2020)

Perhaps we should join the oligarchs and buy ourselves Maltese passport. I think you just need to stay a few months and give the government a few hundred thousand euros.


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## jacquigem (May 5, 2020)

Now you tell me !


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## REC (May 5, 2020)

Snapster said:


> Schengen will exist whatever happens and there will be no change to the Schengen regulations, the only difference will be that UK passport holders will be treated differently ( Third Country Nationals) unless the UK government manages to work out some separate agreement, which I doubt.
> You may care to read all about the Schengen Regulations in the link below to answer your questions. Make yourself a cuppa and choose a comfy chair!
> 
> I have posted a link below which will let you read the whole of the latest Schengen Regulations
> ...


Hi  have read this but at this late hour my head is in danger of exploding! However, my take is that I qualify under section 1 ( article 6) to all the  conditions and don't need an extended Schengen visa as we have resident permit. Then section 2 states clearly 
"Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States." Which I take to mean that we would be limited to 90 days in Schengen zone but can stay as long as allowed with our residency in Portugal. How one would prove how long stayed in Portugal and how long in rest of area will be debatable, would assume till receipts from arrival and before leaving Portugal. 
And if one doesn't fulfill all of section 1, it is still permitted to transit through Schengen zone to get to place where residency held.


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## jagmanx (May 6, 2020)

REC said:


> Hi  have read this but at this late hour my head is in danger of exploding! However, my take is that I qualify under section 1 ( article 6) to all the  conditions and don't need an extended Schengen visa as we have resident permit. Then section 2 states clearly
> "Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States." Which I take to mean that we would be limited to 90 days in Schengen zone but can stay as long as allowed with our residency in Portugal. How one would prove how long stayed in Portugal and how long in rest of area will be debatable, would assume till receipts from arrival and before leaving Portugal.
> And if one doesn't fulfill all of section 1, it is still permitted to transit through Schengen zone to get to place where residency held.


Yes Ruth..
*It would seem You (Portugal)*
& @jacquigem (Spain) will be fine
and able to travel freely including to & from UK
Just make sure you have your residence docs and insist they are looked at !
The World (well Schengen) is your Oyster. (or Lobster if you remember George Cole as Arthur Daly - Minder)


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## trevskoda (May 6, 2020)

You could buy a cheep home in donegal and get a irish pp letting you roam europe.


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## jagmanx (May 6, 2020)

Yes ! When we toured I noticed many lovely properties..Not just Donegal but also further south ! No jobs BUT Hey-Ho I am retired !
Not necessarily a guarantee as ROI is non-Schengen.
As I have posted before ..So MANY layers...Not sure I have enough umbrellas (no good wind) or raincoats


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## Snapster (May 7, 2020)

REC said:


> Hi  have read this but at this late hour my head is in danger of exploding! However, my take is that I qualify under section 1 ( article 6) to all the  conditions and don't need an extended Schengen visa as we have resident permit. Then section 2 states clearly
> "Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States." Which I take to mean that we would be limited to 90 days in Schengen zone but can stay as long as allowed with our residency in Portugal. How one would prove how long stayed in Portugal and how long in rest of area will be debatable, would assume till receipts from arrival and before leaving Portugal.
> And if one doesn't fulfill all of section 1, it is still permitted to transit through Schengen zone to get to place where residency held.


Your right, it isn’t really clear and obviously open to interpretation, which it shouldn’t be. 
My interpretation is that if you are a U.K. passport holder, and a residence permit holder issued by a Schengen country, you are still subject to  the 90 day rule if you travel outside your country of residence. 
Visitors that need a visa to visit the Schengen area are allowed to stay for the 90 days and the rules state that if you have a residence permit and are from a Third Country, the permit acts the same as a visa when you travel outside your home country. 
Probably!  
I’m really no further forward with this than you are and I have yet to find anything that makes this clear.


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## jagmanx (May 7, 2020)

That seems to imply you can go from say Spain to France for 90 days!
Or Spain via France towards  UK 1 month.Then exit Schengen 
Then still 2 months left to re-enter France to drive to Spain

Maybe read Portugal for Spain as well !
Time in country of residence is not counted !


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