# Comments,Idea's Welcome



## Flyboy (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi everybody see what you think about this fire i am working on its half a 7kg gas bottle with a piece of 1/4in metal plate welded on the back.

I will be setting onto ceramic tiles attached to some cement board (fire board ) on a 2" frame which will be packed with fireproofing
Not sure if i should put an air gap between the fire and the wall panel as this is the side of the fridge.

View attachment 15037View attachment 15038View attachment 15039


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## Tow Itch (Jun 24, 2013)

Is that canopy decorative or is there some sort of flue?

 What happens to the combustion products?


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## Flyboy (Jun 24, 2013)

Just Decorative No need For A Flue.
I Think you Would Have to be in a near sealed room with no air flow in or out before you start to feel any affects from the small amount of co  that is produced by the fuel.
Most self builds have enough natural gaps in the doors seals to allow air flow in and out but you should always Er on the side of caution as with anything misuse and not using common sense can lead to problems.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 24, 2013)

It looks fab, you could easily add a wall mountable removable fireguard too if needed, just thinking about clothes etc brushing against it, although I don't think the metal would get hot enough to cause fabric to flame, but possibly singe.


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## Dive Tramp (Jun 24, 2013)

Please explain? Why is there no need for a flue? 
If you're burning fuels inside a small space you will need to let the exhaust gases out, somehow.


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## Smaug (Jun 24, 2013)

Dive Tramp said:


> Please explain? Why is there no need for a flue?
> If you're burning fuels inside a small space you will need to let the exhaust gases out, somehow.



We've been thro this before, the fuel is bio-ethanol (pretty much like meths) and the proponents believe it is unlikely to produce enough CO to kill. It seems that the fumes are not enough to activate CO alarms. Will be a fair bit of condensation tho I guess.


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## Flyboy (Jun 24, 2013)

I am not qualified to answer any of the questions with regards to the manufacturing process of Bio-Ethanol or with regards to Health and safety matters when using the product.


Some Notes Taken Off the Internet Might Help Answer Some Question


No chimney, lot’s of freedom

An ethanol fireplace is actually a quite simple construction, and because of the fuel (denatured ethanol) – there is no need for a chimney or massive installation. Since it doesn’t need a chimney, it’s a mobile fireplaces – that is, the floor models of course. Having a mobile fireplace is great in many ways: if you move you can take it with you, if you change the decor you can move the fireplace, you can take it out on the patio – and many more.

No dangerous fumes

Unlike burning wood, the ethanol fireplace doesn’t omit any dangerous fumes when burning. Thats actually the reason it doesn’t need a chimney – the fuel is so clean that the final product of the flame is a very small amount of water and carbon dioxide (and don’t be afraid, you won’t get wet walls or suffocate, see the Con about oxygen for more info).

From ashes to… Nothing!

Having such a clean flame also gives other benefits. Of course you don’t get any ashes as the remaining liquid vaporize, but another thing is soot. You won’t get any soot on your walls or ceilings. The only places we ever se soot is where the flame touch, and even then it’s a very very little amount (did i emphasize the little part enough? – it’s basically nothing!).

What is biomass, what are bio fuels?
Biomass is the total dry organic matter or stored energy content of living
or recently living organisms. Biomass can be used for fuel directly by
burning it, indirectly by fermentation to an alcohol, or extraction of
combustible oils. Biomass also includes biodegradable wastes that can be
burnt as fuel.
Bio fuel is a fuel that is derived from biomass. It is a renewable energy
source; the CO2 released when it is burnt was absorbed from the
atmosphere during plant growth.
Bio fuels include:- Bio ethanol, Bio butanol, Bio diesel, Biogas


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## Tow Itch (Jun 24, 2013)

Launched into the last comment without the benefit(?) of reading the thread started by WVW. OK I'm a bit stuck as to how the assertion is made that the fuel never produces CO. Gas generally doesn't if burnt in the right conditions but of course it can.
I've now done the compulsory half hour interweb education programme. Looking at those lush orange flames as methanol quite often burns colourlessly, does it have an agent added to colour the flames? As it's orange guessing a sodium salt(?), do salts in solution flame like solids? though if burning it won't be in solution.
 I presume this substance is spiked to stop me substituting it for vodka in the cocktail. Is it a bittering agent or am I adding milk to produce a "Eths" white lady? Denatured alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 If in Europe denatured alcohol as ethanol is often available we would have traditionally seen it as a substitute "Meths" but as ethanol it is a cheaper option for bio ethanol.


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## Dive Tramp (Jun 24, 2013)

Smaug said:


> We've been thro this before, the fuel is bio-ethanol (pretty much like meths) and the proponents believe it is unlikely to produce enough CO to kill. It seems that the fumes are not enough to activate CO alarms. Will be a fair bit of condensation tho I guess.



Well, Smaug, thanks for your reply. Might I point out however, that I hadn't read thro ALL of the threads pertaining to this "incab" heater that you allude to. You guys may well have been through it all before but others don't always read every blessed post that's ever written, especially when there's no link back to the original thread from whence this thread has sprung.

I'm not keen on producing yet more moisture inside my van, as this burner will (there's enough of that from the diving gear) so I'll stick to my DRY AIR producing, Carbon Neutral, Free Fuel (pick it up anywhere, especially way out in the sticks, even in mid-winter) Logburner which vents nice and safely thro the roof.

Ciao for Niao

DT


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## Flyboy (Jun 24, 2013)

The flame does change to blue after about 10 Min's of burning you ignite the fumes and not the fluid 
 bio ethanol fuel consists of waste from several agricultural products including as maize, potatoes and wheat. The waste from these products is used in a fermentation process that results in what is essentially a form of alcohol. The alcohol then has some additives included to make it harmful to drink! The resulting liquid is then bottled for use as an environmentally friendly fuel in our Bio ethanol fires. When burned, the result is water, steam and low, safe levels of carbon dioxide (CO2). Bio ethanol fuel is considered an environmentally friendly fuel as the amount of the CO2 emitted on burning is offset by the CO2 collected by the plants when originally grown.


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## jimbohorlicks (Jun 25, 2013)

I think I would rather keep the 7kg gas bottle full with gas and use that to heat my van the conventional way. Looks like a bit of MFI backboard with decorative bits that have no real function

Sorry, but thats how I see it


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## herbenny (Jun 26, 2013)

Well I think its decorative, effective, and obviously safe. The people who saw Steve's van were all impressed by his attempts and his knowledge. 
Some of us simply dont have the money to buy heaters and what not so this could be a much cheaper alternative !!!


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## hextal (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm certainly no expert on this so the below is more a question than an answer.

My very brief googling of bio-ethanol suggest that the bi-products of the combustion process are water and Carbon Dioxide.  This is, i'm assuming, is based on adequate oxygen being present to lead to complete combustion.

My understanding is that in an area where there is less than adequate oxygen, large heat-sinks, and a few other factors (that I don't fully grasp TBH) then the combustion process will be incomplete, leading to other byproducts. 

So my question - Is there any risk that the size of vehicle, the type of burner/presence of heat-sink and type of existing ventilation may lead to a situation where the combustion process is incomplete leading to production of carbon monoxide (or other by-products) in potentially dangerous quantities?


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## Smaug (Jun 26, 2013)

hextal said:


> I'm certainly no expert on this so the below is more a question than an answer.
> 
> My very brief googling of bio-ethanol suggest that the bi-products of the combustion process are water and Carbon Dioxide.  This is, i'm assuming, is based on adequate oxygen being present to lead to complete combustion.
> 
> ...



There is always "a risk," the discussion is about how likely it is. Most seem to think it's not very likely if there is good ventilation (which rather negates the heating effect).


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## hextal (Jun 26, 2013)

As long as the assessment of 'likelihood' is based on a reasoned logic then fair-enough.

I deal with a lot of risk assessing of things and I find that quite often, while the 'hazard' element has been well researched/understood, the evaluation of the 'likelihood' of the event has often been guessed based on a lack of understanding.  Usually falling into either the 'it'll never happen' category or the 'it's gonna collapse any minute' category, and missing everything in between.  More importantly, when pressed on the derivation of the 'likelihood' of the event, people often have no real answer other than to simply re-state the hazard, or re-confirm that they don't understand the situation.

The above isn't meant to sound narky, I just like to check that people are making decisions like this based on an evaluation of info rather than a lack of it.


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2013)

hextal said:


> I'm certainly no expert on this so the below is more a question than an answer.
> 
> My very brief googling of bio-ethanol suggest that the bi-products of the combustion process are water and Carbon Dioxide.  This is, i'm assuming, is based on adequate oxygen being present to lead to complete combustion.
> 
> ...



simple answer is yes, In the LPG world, there are strict regulations in respect of Ventilation Upper/lower their location etc in respect of the volume of the primary habitation area. Partly because appliances such as cookers are flueless.

In the link Flyboy quotes, there is a mention of soot, which is a product of incorrect combustion, therfore not unreasonable to assume Carbon Monoxide is present. 

0.01 % or 100 parts per million of co in the air produces 13 percent saturation of Co in the blood stream slight headache 

I quote that not to frighten anyone, but demonstrate the concentration of Co doesnt need to be high to have an effect.

As Smaug and Flyboy suggest it is all to do with risk assessment and likelihood.



Channa


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## Flyboy (Jun 26, 2013)

hextal said:


> I'm certainly no expert on this so the below is more a question than an answer.
> 
> My very brief googling of bio-ethanol suggest that the bi-products of the combustion process are water and Carbon Dioxide.  This is, i'm assuming, is based on adequate oxygen being present to lead to complete combustion.
> 
> ...



Like all heaters that burn hydrocarbon fuels and do not have a flue leading to the outside, the heated space must be well ventilated to allow the combustion products (water vapour, CO2 and CO) to escape and fresh air for combustion to enter, and this applies to paraffin, gas, or ethanol.You Must Keep a good air flow in and out of the van
I think the answer is in your own Question
My understanding is that in an area where there is less than adequate oxygen, large heat-sinks, and a few other factors (that I don't fully grasp TBH) then the combustion process will be incomplete, leading to other byproducts. 

It all comes down to Adequate Air Flow This allows the fuel to burn at the correct temperature and reduces the amount of fumes/ unspent fuel that are released into the atmosphere.


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## NeilyG (Jun 26, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> View attachment 15037View attachment 15038View attachment 15039



I can see where you've got that in your camper - reckon its right next to where you were proposing to have a shower isn't it? You'll have to watch yourself when bending down for the soap, matey!


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## Smaug (Jun 26, 2013)

I was interested to note recently that a family had some members die recently after taking a Barbie into a tent for warmth. Now, I would expect a tent, even with a built-in ground sheet to have adequate ventilation, however I suspect that closing the Barbie lid  (to reduce risk of fire) would create the conditions for low oxygen burn & CO production. I don't know if that is what happened, just trying to think about situations where CO could have been produced.


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## Flyboy (Jun 26, 2013)

Smaug said:


> I was interested to note recently that a family had some members die recently after taking a Barbie into a tent for warmth. Now, I would expect a tent, even with a built-in ground sheet to have adequate ventilation, however I suspect that closing the Barbie lid  (to reduce risk of fire) would create the conditions for low oxygen burn & CO production. I don't know if that is what happened, just trying to think about situations where CO could have been produced.



You think about the times you have slept in a tent woke up to condensation on the inside thats down to ventilation or lack of fresh air flowing though . Could this be something to do with the Hydrostatic Head (waterproofing Levels ) of the tents not allowing free air flow.


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2013)

Smaug said:


> I was interested to note recently that a family had some members die recently after taking a Barbie into a tent for warmth. Now, I would expect a tent, even with a built-in ground sheet to have adequate ventilation, however I suspect that closing the Barbie lid  (to reduce risk of fire) would create the conditions for low oxygen burn & CO production. I don't know if that is what happened, just trying to think about situations where CO could have been produced.


 Lid or not, if they were using charcoal the centre of a lump is not getting the correct amount of oxygen to combust properly so Co will be produced in quite copious quantity.

800 ppm of co = 50 % saturation in the blood stream and fatality is possible within 2-3 hours.

Remember also that with flueless lpg appliances strict regulations are based upon correct use of an appliance, I cant see many people using a hob cooking for 2 to 3 hours. Unlike an LPG/ Ethanol fire.

I worked for someone last year who had lost a colleague from CO poisioning in a caravan with a carver room sealed appliance with extraction to the underneath of the caravan.

As you would expect, HSE were involved, and didnt find any fault with the appliance there was snow on the ground, and the possible conclusion was the flue had become blocked possibly by an animal snuggling up for warmth. 

Channa


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## Smaug (Jun 26, 2013)

channa said:


> (snip)
> As you would expect, HSE were involved, and didnt find any fault with the appliance there was snow on the ground, and the possible conclusion was the flue had become blocked *possibly by an animal snuggling up for warmth*.
> 
> Channa



Hhhmm, that's interesting, I wouldn't have thought of that. 

Mind you, I know they say externally flued heaters are "safe", but I have never had the temerity to leave one on all night while sleeping (uses too much gas anyway!). I love a heater last thing for undressing & to go to bed warm & first thing for getting up, but I simply wouldn't leave one on all night. Now I have another reason to persuade Mrs Smaug that it may not be a good idea.


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## NeilyG (Jun 26, 2013)

Had a check through the thread and don't THINK this has been questioned (forgive poor attention span if it has) but will this setup emit heat as efficiently as the gas canister version you showed us before? I.E. Is half the heat going inside the cubicle and could it damage the wood surround in time?
Only asking this because setup looks too GOOD to be true. If its a goer, then bring it on.


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## Caz (Jun 26, 2013)

Smaug said:


> I was interested to note recently that a family had some members die recently after taking a Barbie into a tent for warmth. Now, I would expect a tent, even with a built-in ground sheet to have adequate ventilation, however I suspect that closing the Barbie lid  (to reduce risk of fire) would create the conditions for low oxygen burn & CO production. I don't know if that is what happened, just trying to think about situations where CO could have been produced.



Modern lightweight tents with sewn in groundsheets are pretty airtight when zipped up for the night, that's why they suffer so much from condensation.


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Hhhmm, that's interesting, I wouldn't have thought of that.
> 
> Mind you, I know they say externally flued heaters are "safe", but I have never had the temerity to leave one on all night while sleeping (uses too much gas anyway!). I love a heater last thing for undressing & to go to bed warm & first thing for getting up, but I simply wouldn't leave one on all night. Now I have another reason to persuade Mrs Smaug that it may not be a good idea.


 I must admit I wouldnt either, On trumatics, the seal from the fire to the flue should be replaced everytime the fire is removed, to form a seal it melts with residual heat, The reason of course is to prevent unburnt combustants into the habitation area.I.e CO

I have refrained on the potential safety issue regarding Flyboys invention, on the basis we are all self accountable and like crossing the road there is an evaluation of risk. 

However to make an accurate evaluation of risk requires knowledge.

I suspect, that if I were to do an elf and safety check on a lot of the self builds, and sorry a gap in the door is not ventilation, Nor leaving a window open, in the regulation sense and thats before adequate securing of piping, correct sizing for the appliances etc very few would get a "clean" ticket. Not everyone , but a lot of people seem to go a bit gung ho and dont know good practise to start with .

2010 I took delivery of 5 statics built by Trigano brand new ( big player) all 5 I condemned on gas testing, In windy conditions, the flue design from the water heater allowed fumes to back draught in the habitation area, visually you couldnt see the extraction process adequately and the design allowed leaves and other detrius to block the upper ventilation.

Has it happened a 25 minute modification on each van cured the "risk " 

I could be seen as a Jobsworth or stringent in ensuring the vans were compliant with the current regulations, I actually dont care.

What I did and do care about, is I couldnt forgive myself if I had passed a van , missed something and someone died. 

That said, risk evaluation and the consequences are in our world surely like re filling gas bottles down to personal accountibility and acceptance of the risk.

Channa


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## Smaug (Jun 26, 2013)

Kainene said:


> Modern lightweight tents with sewn in groundsheets are pretty airtight when zipped up for the night, that's why they suffer so much from condensation.



Yes, it's also why they have built in vents & there are gaps left unsewn around the ends of the zips.


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## Flyboy (Jun 26, 2013)

NeilyG said:


> Had a check through the thread and don't THINK this has been questioned (forgive poor attention span if it has) but will this setup emit heat as efficiently as the gas canister version you showed us before? I.E. Is half the heat going inside the cubicle and could it damage the wood surround in time?
> Only asking this because setup looks too GOOD to be true. If its a goer, then bring it on.



Hi this is the post i started   with.
 The photos are just to show you the fire i have just rebuilt the panel where the fire will be placed. The panel is 3ins thick with fire board at the back then the cavity is filled with fire board the the front piece is fire board that will be covered with ceramic tiles  the idea of the half bottle is to reduce the amount of heat taken to heat the bottle up and the wider /  higher opening is to allow more heat into the van.
Hope this Helps.


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## Flyboy (Jul 3, 2013)

*My Fires up and running Now*

Hi Here's a few more photos of my fire its up and running now and works a treat.
View attachment 15292View attachment 15293View attachment 15294View attachment 15295View attachment 15296View attachment 15297


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## Geraldine (Jul 3, 2013)

Hi flyby, what is the heat output 1or2kw?
Cheers
David


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## Flyboy (Jul 3, 2013)

Star Trekker said:


> Hi flyby, what is the heat output 1or2kw?
> Cheers
> David


Hi Depends on the amount of bio fuel you use really  using a wick will reduce the output but save fuel, its more than enough to heat my long wheel base Citroen would like to say nearer the 2 kw output but only guessing


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