# Help with Leisure Battery



## lotty (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi all,
It looks like I need to buy a new leisure battery for our van. This is the first time I have had to buy one so I was hoping I could ask for a little help please?

There seems to be lots of different makes, anyone got a recommendation for a good quality one?
Also, there is a lot of choice for AH, what do most of you go for?
Whats cold cranking SAE?

When I get the battery will it need charging first or can I just fit it and put it on hook up at home?

Sorry to ask such basic questions but i've not bought one before and we're not very good with this sort of stuff?

Thanks
Lotty


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## Deleted member 27096 (Apr 3, 2013)

If you have a local suppler then your best off using them as if anything goes wrong then they are there not other side of the country though .
the best will have a longer guarantee 

as for AH get the biggest 1 that you can fit in where yours is fitted , dont get 1 thats smaller in AH / reserve capacity.
cold cramping is for starting battery's and not leisure ones.

Battery should be almost fully charge when you get it and a 12hr charge at home will be more that enough to top it up..........


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## AuldTam (Apr 3, 2013)

I would recommend a lightweight one...those other ones are really heavy...

I just use a heavy duty van battery...it plenty for me on weekends away.


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## Tony Lee (Apr 4, 2013)

One of those "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" situations - meaning that unless we have some idea of what you already have and what sort of equipment you have and what sort of lifestyle you lead, it is a bit hard to make recommendations other than to suggest that if you are happy with what you have, then just call into a specialist and ask for another one the same.


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## Firefox (Apr 4, 2013)

Cold cranking amps is the current a battery can deliver for 30 seconds at some low temperature (forgotten what) without falling below a certain voltage.

Most leisure or marine batteries are actually very similar to starter batteries. The main difference is the label. You'd be best of buying the biggest battery that will fit in your compartment. The more amp hours the better, because you shouldn't actually discharge lower than 50% on marine/leisure/starter batteries, so you have less capacity than you think. Make not too important, but Tayna batteries have good prices and quick supply.


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## Neckender (Apr 4, 2013)

firefox beat me to it, all the vans I've had the leisure battery as been a lot smaller than the box holding it, so I've always fitted the biggest that will go in the box, my van had 85 amp hour fitted when I boughtit. I changed to 110 ah and fitted 2 more extra giving me 330 ah, as I very rarely use hook up, as 160 watt of solar panels as well, and great when touring abroad.

John.

Ps just put it on hook up.


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## Bigpeetee (Apr 4, 2013)

lotty said:


> Hi all,
> It looks like I need to buy a new leisure battery for our van. This is the first time I have had to buy one so I was hoping I could ask for a little help please?
> 
> There seems to be lots of different makes, anyone got a recommendation for a good quality one?
> ...



As others have said, get the biggest you possibly can in the space.

As far a charging it, I would charge it on the bench first, just plugging it in on the EHU will take an age to charge.

Not many people realise that the power supply attached to your EHU is designed as a battery eliminator not charger and will float charge the battery, ie. keep it topped up if it's full.

In addition, on many MH's the power unit is a fair distance away from the battery, so as the manufacturers don't design for wilding but campsite use the cables are smaller but sufficient to run the day to day equipment that will accept a small volt loss.

However if you've got a flat or depleted battery, this volt drop is critical, especially as the voltage isn't really high enough to charge in the first place.

I accidentally left the power switched on for a couple of nights with the fridge door open, so light on and a few other pieces of kit on stand by. It was down to 80% charge, but when I connected the EHU, I only got 1/4 Amp charge.

My trusty Aldi 4A charger came to the rescue!!

This made me realise that actually going into a campsite to recharge the batteries on EHU wasn't such a good idea as it would take several days to get a 50% batt up a bit, but never fully charged.

Fortunately the solar takes up the strain, maybe I should bin the power supply and save the weight??


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## shortcircuit (Apr 4, 2013)

Not sure what charger unit you have Pete but the Sergent in  my MH gives out about 16amps so more than capable of charging  leisure battery and can also charge starter battery which has been a boon on the odd occassion


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## Wooie1958 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have this one..........  CB516 | CBE s.r.l. ........... fitted in my van.

Does it actually put out *16 Amps* when needed or not ?


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## Byronic (Apr 4, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Nonsense, a real leisure battery has a different plate structure. Thicker plates and less of them. Of course some cheap ones may well be relabelled starter batteries but to say they all are is disingenious of you.



Agreed, and battey longevity depends greatly on the in use management. It is likely that a starter battery if used so that it is disconnected before it is depleted to a criitical predetermined voltage say 11.7V, will last as long as a leisure battery regularly deep cycled to say 11.3V.
Which means that if your charge supply (eg solar) exceeds consumption,  then starter  may be preferable to a leisure battery, but, if consumption exceeds supply then leisure battery may be preferable. The alternative in this case being to upgrade the supply, ie increase solar panel Wattage and/or increase starter battery capacity so as not to encroach into the critical zone.


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

Firefox said:


> Cold cranking amps is the current a battery can deliver for 30 seconds at some low temperature (forgotten what) without falling below a certain voltage.



Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0 ° F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts.


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## shortcircuit (Apr 4, 2013)

Wooie1958 said:


> I have this one..........  CB516 | CBE s.r.l. ........... fitted in my van.
> 
> Does it actually put out *16 Amps* when needed or not ?



Of course not, does your 4a give out 4a if needed or not.  The charger will measure the battery and charge accordingly and for a low battery will go full tilt and then taper off.  It is a battery charger and not a power supply which feeds the  12v appliances


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## Byronic (Apr 4, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Well put. And indeed that is why leisure batteries are a valid expenditure for most of us.



But perhaps paradoxically not the deciding factor in my case. Reason being is that I always like to have the caravan batteries available as emergency starter batteries. I dare say leisure batteries could substitute as starter batteries but would they give the requisite high Cold Crank Amps just at the time when you're most likely to need them??

My 24V starting requirement limits the number available of jump start sources, that and the difficulty of obtaining breakdown insurance also being considerations (Heavy old vehicle)

Within reason I have gauged my 12V consumption to be less than the charge supply over average 24 hour periods so as not to make the option Leisure batteries a nescessity.


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## Byronic (Apr 4, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> My mate bought a 2nd hand boat and it had been on a leisure battery working the starter for a season + whatever before he bought it. Only noticed when I was up with him for it's Spring service.
> 
> Wouldn't matter for a jump start, it's only boosting your engine battery, not replacing it. You could join them for an hour or two then disconnect before starting as well??



Your mates boat engine may have been in good nick and only require minimal power to start.

When I need a jump start it's when the starter batteries are well and truly flattened si?
So they are best bye passed/removed whilst I use the healthy (hopefully) house batteries. 

Connecting the 2 sets of batteries may help in theory but no good if the dead or dying batteries are knackered and would only average out the available Amperage in any case.


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## Tow Itch (Apr 4, 2013)

> Originally Posted by Firefox
> Cold cranking amps is the current a battery can deliver for 30 seconds at some low temperature (forgotten what) without falling below a certain voltage.
> 
> Most leisure or marine batteries are actually very similar to starter batteries. The main difference is the label. You'd be best of buying the biggest battery that will fit in your compartment. The more amp hours the better, because you shouldn't actually discharge lower than 50% on marine/leisure/starter batteries, so you have less capacity than you think. Make not too important, but Tayna batteries have good prices and quick supply.
> Nonsense, a real leisure battery has a different plate structure. Thicker plates and less of them. Of course some cheap ones may well be relabelled starter batteries but to say they all are is disingenious of you.



 Mr Flap

 Sorry my abilities with the site didn't allow me to use the quote button to quote both you and the comment you were replying to.



> a real leisure battery has a different plate structure.Thicker plates and less of them.



 Second bit first) If you have less plates you have a lower voltage. It's 2.1V between cells or pairs of plates (Pb and PbO[SUB]2[/SUB]) so if you reduce the number of plates you reduce the number of cells.

 First bit) Thicker plates: Ah well yes and no and no and yes. Traction batteries that are meant for a steady power release have thicker plates but are substantially heavier and more expensive. Marine or leisure batteries are a compromise between the two. Well they are supposed to be but most of us don't have the wherewithal to chop up a variety of batteries to judge and though we are told that leisure batteries are getting better whenever anyone gets round to chopping up batteries the answers seem disappointingly familiar. There is far more badge engineering than real engineering. If you know better then explain the bit I'm missing or the independent reports that show otherwise. (That is a request not a challenge if I'm wrong and you show me that then I have gained so I have no problem about being wrong)

 This is a pretty good video other than he says power when he means total work and he doesn't show how to identify a deep cycle battery. A few other good battery and charging videos too.
 [video=youtube;ZG9UDyz1dis]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG9UDyz1dis[/video]



> Flip Flap
> Originally Posted by Bigpeetee
> As others have said, get the biggest you possibly can in the space.
> 
> ...





> Not many people realise that the power supply attached to your EHU is designed as a battery eliminator not charger and will float charge the battery, ie. keep it topped up if it's full


 It might not even float charge properly dependant on the supply unit and battery type. 13.8v will not quite float charge a submerged lead acid battery.



> The three vans I've had all charged the battery and the one I have now also trickle charges the engine battery at the same time.
> Courtesy of http://www.schaudt-gmbh.de./25.0.html


 The link goes 404
 Unless you have something unusual the charging unit on your motorhome charges, but it doesn't. Zig the most popular type of control unit limits the output to 13.8v for "safety" reasons. The only safety issues is you can guarantee it won't gas. But if you never charged it it wouldn't gas and that would not produce a satisfactory outcome.
 If fine tuning things the ideal charging temp depends on the temperature of the battery bank but loosely 13.8v is bad because: It doesn't reach a high enough voltage to float charge. It doesn't have a high enough voltage to bulk charge properly which causes sulphates to form. Finally as the difference between the battery voltage and the charging voltage determines the rate of charge it takes for ever and a day to charge the battery even up to the limited point it will charge, even before we explore voltage loss.

 I'm no battery expert just been trying to find out details recently on charging batteries and choice of batteries.


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## shortcircuit (Apr 4, 2013)

"Second bit first) If you have less plates you have a lower voltage. It's 2.1V between cells or pairs of plates (Pb and PbO2) so if you reduce the number of plates you reduce the number of cells."

Dont think so.  A 12 volt battery is made up of 6 compartments each being a 2.1 volt battery.  The more plates and larger in each compartment determines the A/h rating.


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## maingate (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Tow Itch.

About 18 months ago in one of the motorhome mags, one of the 'experts' got a variety of 'leisure' batteries and chopped them open. The overall situation was that Firefox is basically right about leisures being rebadged starter batteries. There was a few minor differences but nothing that would make a noticeable difference.

Given that a deep traction battery is a different animal (as you pointed out), leisure batteries are miles away from being deep cycle and very close to being starter batteries. It seems you can spend a lot of money in the hope of getting something better but not with lead/acid construction.

i have had good service for over 3 years with my Numax leisure batteries (which are probably a mid range price) but I never let them get down to 50% discharge. When they need changing, I am of the mind to buy Elecsol because they are different internally (ie not a mix of water and Acid. I should get a longer life if I continue looking after them (especially now that I have solar panels). A little extra purchase cost might give me an extra year or two.

BTW, the Schaudt Electroblock system referred to by Mr Flap  charges the leisures at 16 amps and gives a 2 amp float charge to the van battery when on hookup and charges the leisures at up to 18 amps off the alternator. If a Schaudt 1218 solar regulator is fitted, the van battery also gets charged from a solar source.


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## Byronic (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Maingate, 
The construction of Elecsol solar batteries may differ from that of more conventional batteries but does that make them better? And even if they are better, does this the benefit justify the premium price, last time I looked they were  at least twice the price of regular batts.
There's a lot of negative comment on the various forums (fora) and  has been for years regarding Elecsol. Of course you have to be sceptical regarding many comments on the  web....but where there's a lot of smoke......


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## maingate (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Byronic,

I will have to do an up to date google but there used to be only about £10 to £15 difference between a 110 Ah Numax and the equivalent Elecsol.

I know some people have said Elecsol are rubbish and have had problems but do they look after their batteries? A lot of people use them and have not complained. Who do you believe?

From memory, the Elecsol has a 5 year guarantee and if bought through a local reputable company, there should be no hassle if there was a problem.

You have to gamble sometimes. :dance:


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## Byronic (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Maingate,
True enough like for like Elecsol are marginally more expensive than many competitors. However the "different technlology" battery they tout with vigour is the Carbon Fibre deeeeeep cycle flavour, and this from memory is easily twice as much as I'm prepared to pay.

As you say and I totally agree with you. it's mainly down to how you treat/manage a battery that has the greatest bearing on the longevity of a battery, assuming comparable manufacturing standards.

However I've sometimes seen batteries in retail outlets being parallel charged in batches on a cheap or obsolete charger for days on end until boiled dry or topped up with tap water, probabably bent electrolyte plates, ie buggered before sale. Then the unsuspecting buyer blames the manufacturer... happened to me.

If possible I buy my batteries in Spain. Some outlets there sell the batteries dry, and the acid in seperate plastic sealed bottles ready for DIY. I still prefer conventional maintenance batteries as house batteries. I like to be able to see individual cell performance acid level etc.


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## coolasluck (Apr 4, 2013)

As we will be fulltiming i have yet to have my mind changed from the trojan batteries.
If you are not going to be fulltiming i see little point in buying these,i would probably just go for some middle of the road range of leisures.
I am enjoying this debate though its good to learn from others opinions and is always worth investigating new battery types and ranges.


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

Byronic said:


> Agreed, and battey longevity depends greatly on the in use management. It is likely that a starter battery if used so that it is disconnected before it is depleted to a criitical predetermined voltage say 11.7V, will last as long as a leisure battery regularly deep cycled to say 11.3V.
> Which means that if your charge supply (eg solar) exceeds consumption,  then starter  may be preferable to a leisure battery, but, if consumption exceeds supply then leisure battery may be preferable. The alternative in this case being to upgrade the supply, ie increase solar panel Wattage and/or increase starter battery capacity so as not to encroach into the critical zone.



11.3v would be 90% discharged        11.7v would be about 73% discharged

Most so called leisure batteries are hybrids at best with slightly thicker plates than a starter battery.

A true Deep cycle battery can stand repeated 80% discharge @ 11.65v

*Cycles vs Life*

A battery "cycle" is one complete discharge and recharge cycle. It is usually considered to be discharging from 100% to 20%, and then back to 100%. However, there are often ratings for other depth of discharge cycles, the most common ones are 10%, 20%, and 50%. You have to be careful when looking at ratings that list how many cycles a battery is rated for unless it also states how far down it is being discharged. For example, one of the widely advertised telephone type (float service) batteries have been advertised as having a 20-year life. If you look at the fine print, it has that rating only at 5% DOD - it is much less when used in an application where they are cycled deeper on a regular basis. Those same batteries are rated at less than 5 years if cycled to 50%. For example, most golf cart batteries are rated for about 550 cycles to 50% discharge - which equates to about 2 years.  (DOD) - the depth of discharge.

Battery life is directly related to how deep the battery is cycled each time. If a battery is discharged to 50% every day, it will last about twice as long as if it is cycled to 80% DOD. If cycled only 10% DOD, it will last about 5 times as long as one cycled to 50%. Obviously, there are some practical limitations on this - you don't usually want to have a 5 ton pile of batteries sitting there just to reduce the DOD. The most practical number to use is 50% DOD on a regular basis. This does NOT mean you cannot go to 80% once in a while. It's just that when designing a system when you have some idea of the loads, you should figure on an average DOD of around 50% for the best storage vs cost factor. Also, there is an upper limit - a battery that is continually cycled 5% or less will usually not last as long as one cycled down 10%. This happens because at very shallow cycles, the Lead Dioxide tends to build up in clumps on the the positive plates rather in an even film. 

Seems to me, buy cheap batteries, don't discharge by more than 50% and keep well charged is the way to go. Solar must help.


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Thing is, if you are able to keep a strict charging regime, would you need a leisure battery in the 1st place? My van isn't used as often as it was and I had lost interest for a while after a bereavement. Got things back together and the Varta leisure batteries, at least 5 years and possibly 9years old were still working well whereas the Bosch engine battery which was only about 18 months old was useless.
> 
> Similar quality of battery, no extravagant claims from Varta, explain that one please? Relabelling probably is prevalent with cheaper batteries, but I doubt Bosh/Varta/Exide would get involved in such things, hard won reputations are worth a lot.
> 
> ...



One reason why your Bosch engine battery may have failed as there would likely to have been some small drain loads on it, eg - alarm, radio, possibly central locking and maybe some others whereas the habitation batteries might have been totally isolated. Who knows. I bought a calcium starter battery for my car about 8 years ago, it lasted less than two years, I had bought it because I was told they would last longer.


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## Bigpeetee (Apr 4, 2013)

shortcircuit said:


> Not sure what charger unit you have Pete but the Sergent in  my MH gives out about 16amps so more than capable of charging  leisure battery and can also charge starter battery which has been a boon on the odd occassion



Mine gives out 16A but at 13.8v which is great for float charging but not quick charging, also as a result of the internal cabling the voltage at the battery when depleted is reduced down to 13.2v (due to cable resistance)

The 16A current is designed to act as a battery eliminator ie, you can run all appliances without a leisure batt if required. Mine also tops up starter


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## Apache208D (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi ya, 

Soooooo, given all the discussion and my confusion, would these 12V 120AH Battery Brand New | eBay  be OK to us for 'Cranking' and 'Leisure' then?

If so I don't want any of you others buying them before I've got mine if there are only 10!!!!!!!


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## maingate (Apr 4, 2013)

Too late, the seller is only 2 miles from me. :king:

The price is good for a 120 Ah, so I would go for it. Don't hang about, he only has 8 left now. :cool1:


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

Apache208D said:


> Hi ya,
> 
> Soooooo, given all the discussion and my confusion, would these 12V 120AH Battery Brand New | eBay  be OK to us for 'Cranking' and 'Leisure' then?
> 
> If so I don't want any of you others buying them before I've got mine if there are only 10!!!!!!!



My tuppence worth is

That battery is a starter battery and not a leisure. It's claimed it is 120Ah most leisure batteries are 110Ah and also the physical size looks far too short. Compare with this one  

I might be wrong - it has been known:raofl::lol-049:


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## Apache208D (Apr 4, 2013)

maingate said:


> Too late, the seller is only 2 miles from me. :king:
> 
> The price is good for a 120 Ah, so I would go for it. Don't hang about, he only has 8 left now. :cool1:



Only 6 left now!!


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## Apache208D (Apr 4, 2013)

sparrks said:


> My tuppence worth is
> 
> That battery is a starter battery and not a leisure. It's claimed it is 120Ah most leisure batteries are 110Ah and also the physical size looks far too short. Compare with this one
> 
> I might be wrong - it has been known:raofl::lol-049:



What about these Limekiln Chandlers - 3 x 110amp Leisure Batteries   They sell at £72 each as singles.


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

Apache208D said:


> What about these Limekiln Chandlers - 3 x 110amp Leisure Batteries   They sell at £72 each as singles.



They certainly look the right sort of size and shape that I would expect, the price looks good per unit - but you need to buy all three and no mention of warranty the ones in the other link may just have a Generic photo of a battery rather than of the actual battery. I always assume on Ebay that the photo is of the actual goods unless mentioned otherwise.
I would prefer to pay an extra £16 for one of those than the one shown on Ebay.

Edit: just spotted the £72 was the indvidual price, should have worked that out from the total price.


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## maingate (Apr 4, 2013)

Have a look at Tayna batteries (dot com). A lot of folk buy leisure batteries from them.


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## sparrks (Apr 4, 2013)

maingate said:


> Have a look at Tayna batteries (dot com). A lot of folk buy leisure batteries from them.



They are about 2 quid cheaper with 3 year g'tee   Tanya


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## lotty (Apr 4, 2013)

artheytrate said:


> firefox beat me to it, all the vans I've had the leisure battery as been a lot smaller than the box holding it, so I've always fitted the biggest that will go in the box, my van had 85 amp hour fitted when I boughtit. I changed to 110 ah and fitted 2 more extra giving me 330 ah, as I very rarely use hook up, as 160 watt of solar panels as well, and great when touring abroad.
> 
> John.
> 
> Ps just put it on hook up.



John, have you bought yours local? If so who from?
thanks
Lotty


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## lotty (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks everyone,

lots of info and advice, need to have a good read and measure my hole!


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## maingate (Apr 4, 2013)

lotty said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> lots of info and advice, need to have a good read and measure my hole!



oooh Matron


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## Apache208D (Apr 4, 2013)

maingate said:


> Have a look at Tayna batteries (dot com). A lot of folk buy leisure batteries from them.





sparrks said:


> They are about 2 quid cheaper with 3 year g'tee   Tanya



Hi ya, Thanks guys, have checked out the Numax 110's on Tanya , would be nearly £10 extra for delivery to me, I can collect from the Chandlers (7 miles away) and the ones from the Chandlers are NOT sealed so I can do a bit of maintenance if necessary???


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## sparrks (Apr 5, 2013)

Apache208D said:


> Hi ya, Thanks guys, have checked out the Numax 110's on Tanya , would be nearly £10 extra for delivery to me, I can collect from the Chandlers (7 miles away) and the ones from the Chandlers are NOT sealed so I can do a bit of maintenance if necessary???



You will be able to charge them a bit quicker if not sealed


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## tonyclover (Apr 6, 2013)

*magic eye*



Bigpeetee said:


> As others have said, get the biggest you possibly can in the space.
> 
> As far a charging it, I would charge it on the bench first, just plugging it in on the EHU will take an age to charge.
> 
> ...



:rolleyes2:


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## kimbowbill (Apr 6, 2013)

lotty said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> lots of info and advice, need to have a good read and measure my hole!



Have you got a tape measure big enough :lol-049:


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## Byronic (Apr 6, 2013)

sparrks said:


> 11.3v would be 90% discharged        11.7v would be about 73% discharged
> 
> Seems to me, buy cheap batteries, don't discharge by more than 50% and keep well charged is the way to go. Solar must help.



Thought this thread was deader than a flat battery.
Anyway I would agree with what you have stated. I have sized my solar system so that charging supply exceeds demand in as many circumstances as can be foreseen. Only on the rarest unforeseen situations would the batteries ever reach the auto disconnection limit. Although I always buy "better" branded starters not necessarily cheap.
The last pair were replaced after 10 or so years and were still holding a resonable charge. I know because the fitter stuck one in his car!


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## bobowas007 (Apr 6, 2013)

Leisure Battery ( BRANNER )


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## tonyclover (Apr 6, 2013)

*magic eye*



lotty said:


> Hi all,
> It looks like I need to buy a new leisure battery for our van. This is the first time I have had to buy one so I was hoping I could ask for a little help please?
> 
> There seems to be lots of different makes, anyone got a recommendation for a good quality one?
> ...



hi, i dont know the make and cant look at mine for you,but if you look on ebay,there is one brand that has a green eye ,that tells you how much charge you have in th battery
,and the postage is free.worth looking at i think been on ebay they have several magic eye batterys and all are fully charged,i got a starter battery and it started the camper no problems mind you it is 500 amp,if you get a big leasure battery,get a chappie to lift it in,they are very heavy


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## sparrks (Apr 6, 2013)

Byronic said:


> Thought this thread was deader than a flat battery.
> Anyway I would agree with what you have stated. _I have sized my solar system so that charging supply exceeds demand in as many circumstances as can be foreseen_. Only on the rarest unforeseen situations would the batteries ever reach the auto disconnection limit. Although I always buy "better" branded starters not necessarily cheap.
> The last pair were replaced after 10 or so years and were still holding a resonable charge. I know because the fitter stuck one in his car!



By doing that you are limiting the amount of both depth of discharge and "cycles" the battery goes through and should therefore have very long battery life.


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## Neckender (Apr 7, 2013)

lotty said:


> John, have you bought yours local? If so who from?
> thanks
> Lotty



Hi Lotty i brought mine off ebay nearly 2 years ago, a company in Manchester and next day delivery.

John.


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