# English Aires



## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

What are your top few reasons that your local council should provide a local Aire? I intend to present them to my local council I hope you don't mind me pinching your ideas and adding them to my own, if you do then don't post them here.
To get things going;-
1, Motorhomers can then get rid of waste responseable
2, Attracts custom to local businesses ie, food and fuel.
3, Income for council from car parks at night which are otherwise are unused.
4, Reduce antisocial behavior in car parks at night in that they are occupied by responseable people.


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## RG1 (Oct 31, 2010)

Sounds good, I would not put "motorhomes can get rid of their waste responsibly" As it sounds as if we are a unresponsible lot that dump our waste anywhere we see fit.

I cannot see why we can not overnight anywhere in the UK in council carparks, there is a genuine income for the local council, something like £2-3 between 8pm and 8pm would be ideal in my opinion.


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

RG1 said:


> Sounds good, I would not put "motorhomes can get rid of their waste responsibly" As it sounds as if we are a unresponsible lot that dump our waste anywhere we see fit.
> 
> I cannot see why we can not overnight anywhere in the UK in council carparks, there is a genuine income for the local council, something like £2-3 between 8pm and 8pm would be ideal in my opinion.


 
We have had problems with people not being very responsible and the cost of not a very nice job is huge


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2010)

Tbear said:


> What are your top few reasons that your local council should provide a local Aire? I intend to present them to my local council I hope you don't mind me pinching your ideas and adding them to my own, if you do then don't post them here.
> To get things going;-
> 1, Motorhomers can then get rid of waste responseable
> 2, Attracts custom to local businesses ie, food and fuel.
> ...


 Hi Tbear, you seem to have it pretty well covered. One small point, I would promote the advantages to the council and the local businesses first and more and the advantages for us motorhomers last.
Make them think they have more to gain than us, which possibly is the case in these restricted financial times.

Maybe some of the towns are twinned with French towns that offer Aire's and they could ask the French


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

*****,

Good point, My first letter to the council had too lists, first advantages, second dissadvantages but I dont need help with the second, Cost was enough!


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2010)

There is a remarkable document which was produced by The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia”.  It's called “The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained Vehicle
(MSV) Niche Market”   dated 25th July 2005.   I can't find it on the internet this afternoon but you may find it by googling.   However, I have a PDF copy of the document (size 446 Kb) and if you can devise a way of me getting it to you then you are welcome to it.

Also, when I too was approaching councils, I produced a small pamphlet also as a PDF document (size 671 Kb) and you're welcome to that too.  

There is an Italian document (in English) called Press Release N° 8 MONDO NATURA OPENS:THE MOTORHOME OWNER’S IDENTIKIT AND NEW CAMPERSTYLE   I've got that as a PDF file too (size 72 Kb)  

There's a New Zealand newspaper article called “The Grey Nomads” from “The Dominion Post” on 2 May 2009.  This is the website address http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/features/2379969/The-grey...   but I've just tried it without success.  I have this as a PDF file too (79 Kb).

Any or all of these I am willing to send you.  Do you know how can I do that?  I can send by email as attachments but I'm a free member and I don't know how to get around that.

All of them, except perhaps for my own pamphlet, will be very useful to anyone wanting to approach local authorities. The Australian paper in particular assesses the cash value to Australia of free-campers.   The Italian paper assesses the value of providing Aires by municipalities.   The New Zealand press article is very much a praise of our lifestyle.  My own effort does not match the professionals but it is my own.

Canalsman, if you're reading this – you might have my email address, you did have it once.   Would you be willing to act as a third party?   You might be interested in this stuff yourself, yes?


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> There is a remarkable document which was produced by The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia”.  It's called “The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained Vehicle
> (MSV) Niche Market”   dated 25th July 2005.   I can't find it on the internet this afternoon but you may find it by googling.   However, I have a PDF copy of the document (size 446 Kb) and if you can devise a way of me getting it to you then you are welcome to it.
> 
> Also, when I too was approaching councils, I produced a small pamphlet also as a PDF document (size 671 Kb) and you're welcome to that too.
> ...


 
All will very usefull, many thanks for the email


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## spatey (Oct 31, 2010)

*Council Aire*



Tbear said:


> What are your top few reasons that your local council should provide a local Aire? I intend to present them to my local council I hope you don't mind me pinching your ideas and adding them to my own, if you do then don't post them here.
> To get things going;-
> 1, Motorhomers can then get rid of waste responseable
> 2, Attracts custom to local businesses ie, food and fuel.
> ...



Hi Tbear
I think that most of comments all state why to stay over, but I think you need to say what the council get out for their return? New tourists visiting the area, making it a popular place to stay over. Staying over with money to spend helps with local council economy. Not just travelling thru but staying over. Increase revenue for a little or small outlay. And there must be lots more, I hope other member add too, good luck and keep is all in the loop please.


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## Basil (Oct 31, 2010)

*rubbish collection*

Many wildcampers pick up a little rubbish and leave the site cleaner than when they arrived....


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

spatey said:


> Hi Tbear
> I think that most of comments all state why to stay over, but I think you need to say what the council get out for their return? New tourists visiting the area, making it a popular place to stay over. Staying over with money to spend helps with local council economy. Not just travelling thru but staying over. Increase revenue for a little or small outlay. And there must be lots more, I hope other member add too, good luck and keep is all in the loop please.


 
Hi Spatey
You make a good point but I fear the cost may not be small which is why I need lots of good reasons. They need direct returns ie, site fees, water charges, electric fees, with lots of indirects such as benafits to local shops.
Richard


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

Basil said:


> Many wildcampers pick up a little rubbish and leave the site cleaner than when they arrived....


 
True Basil and there is less antisocial behaviour around where vans are parked so less vandalism.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2010)

We do not come to local authorities with a begging bowl.  We are a valuable resource who should be courted.

How big is the motorhome market?   I have seen an estimate that in 2008 there were 136,000 motorhomes registered in the UK which at that time was growing at 5.1% per annum.   How big is it now and why isn't MY local authority taking advantage of it?

Motorhomes are mobile.  Seems obvious but this means that there is not a motorhome “season”.   We need not be weekend travellers.  We are older, usually, and we spread tourism throughout the week and throughout the year.  We are, usually, retired.   Empty nesters.   We are a resource available in a stream not drip by drip.  We can fill your tourist traps when they would otherwise be empty.

We are green.   We have a minimal impact on the environment.  Not for us the paraffin fuming jet for a week in the sun.  We take our time.   

We have minimal needs.  We are self-contained.  We need only a place to park, to replenish drinking water and dump waste.   We are of an age which prides itself on independence and self-reliance.   We are a huge resource which does not require a great investment to take advantage of it.

We are night watchmen.  The fact of our presence overnight will have an effect on anti-social behaviour.


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## Poco Loco (Oct 31, 2010)

*Getting them on side*



Tbear said:


> What are your top few reasons that your local council should provide a local Aire? I intend to present them to my local council I hope you don't mind me pinching your ideas and adding them to my own, if you do then don't post them here.
> To get things going;-
> 1, Motorhomers can then get rid of waste responseable
> 2, Attracts custom to local businesses ie, food and fuel.
> ...



Excellent Start, May be worth hitting them with some figures, They'll like that.  The sort of thing I mean is the amount of Motorhomes that are currently running around the UK, + the fact that due to new Air Travel costs and problems with air travel, it is a growing industry?  It's all about potential £ signs that will make it happen.  I also found this link that shows a good way of approaching potential places to consider future motorhome stop overs to win them on side.  Have a look and see what you think.

Regards Poco Loco

Overnight stopovers for motorhomes in the UK


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

Many thanks Poco Loco I have emailed DVLA for stats I am waiting for a reply.
Richard


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## AndyC (Oct 31, 2010)

You will probably need to include a brief explanation of what a motorhome actually is. I think you'll find that most local councillors will have no idea that most European motorhomes are usually completely self contained with their own water supply, toilet and shower. Or even that they are not all 'Winnebago' sized vehicles! 

AndyC


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## David & Ann (Oct 31, 2010)

At Porthtowan cove there is a really nice car park with toilets. They have overhead bars that prevent anything over a small van size to park. We also have another parking area where the surfers go to park. They too have an overhead bar across. A lot of Campers come but turn around as they cannot park. The locals have aked the Council to remove them as a lot of Campers get turned away. They statement was, if they removed them then the Gipsies might move in and stay permanently. Any comments on this!!!


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## shawbags (Oct 31, 2010)

Hi all,the gypsey,hippie type would be my concern if i was a councillor.What could they do to stop people taking over the council parking spot if it was aproved because somewhere down the line it would probably happen,best keep off the subject but it is worth thinking about for future reference.Keep up the good work,is there anything i could put my name to for support ,pertition ect to help,cheers Shawbags (Chris).


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## vipper (Oct 31, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> At Porthtowan cove there is a really nice car park with toilets. They have overhead bars that prevent anything over a small van size to park. We also have another parking area where the surfers go to park. They too have an overhead bar across. A lot of Campers come but turn around as they cannot park. The locals have aked the Council to remove them as a lot of Campers get turned away. They statement was, if they removed them then the Gipsies might move in and stay permanently. Any comments on this!!!



Europe gets around this problem without any problems - how do they do it? You see Aires for Les Gens de Voyage in France.

Those barriers are a pain in la derriere. They keep me and my money out of communities.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2010)

Edited- Entered in error


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

AndyC said:


> You will probably need to include a brief explanation of what a motorhome actually is. I think you'll find that most local councillors will have no idea that most European motorhomes are usually completely self contained with their own water supply, toilet and shower. Or even that they are not all 'Winnebago' sized vehicles!
> 
> AndyC


 
Hi AndyC
Yes we are not caravans , we need very little!
Richard


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> At Porthtowan cove there is a really nice car park with toilets. They have overhead bars that prevent anything over a small van size to park. We also have another parking area where the surfers go to park. They too have an overhead bar across. A lot of Campers come but turn around as they cannot park. The locals have aked the Council to remove them as a lot of Campers get turned away. They statement was, if they removed them then the Gipsies might move in and stay permanently. Any comments on this!!!


David & Ann
If the surfers where in there then how would the gipsies get in there, bit short sighted of the council. This is what I am about. trying to put together a case to show we are better for the council, the locals and the enviroment.
Richard


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Hi all,the gypsey,hippie type would be my concern if i was a councillor.What could they do to stop people taking over the council parking spot if it was aproved because somewhere down the line it would probably happen,best keep off the subject but it is worth thinking about for future reference.Keep up the good work,is there anything i could put my name to for support ,pertition ect to help,cheers Shawbags (Chris).


 
Hi Shawbags 
If I ever do get to stand in front of a council meeting I am sure they will ask about it. This why I need to find out about the local byelaws on parking and policeing them, Changes in planning permission, Legal limits on stay etc.
Thanks for the offer.
Richard


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

vipper said:


> Europe gets around this problem without any problems - how do they do it? You see Aires for Les Gens de Voyage in France.
> 
> Those barriers are a pain in la derriere. They keep me and my money out of communities.


 
The town we are twinned with has 2 "dumping grounds" and a council camp site.


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## Kontiki (Oct 31, 2010)

While I am in agreement about trying to get some type of aire type of motorhome parking maybe we should start trying to convince motorhome dealers & the few motorhome manufacturers to create aires  after all they make their living from us so why don't they give something back. This should be not just having somewhere for their own customers (they can do this if they want as an extra area) but surely they could have space set aside for 1 or 2 motorhomes to park overnight without any charge. It would have to accepted that you can only stay one night & if all the spaces are occupied then you move on. This seems to be a common practice in Germany, we have often stayed at dealers or manufacturers on an area for overnight parking.

Getting some of these places established around the country could then be used to show councils how they would work.


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## RG1 (Oct 31, 2010)

I think your on to something there Ed, all dealers have large empty car parks after the shop closes, I suppose security would be there issue as most are gated.


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## Tbear (Oct 31, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> While I am in agreement about trying to get some type of aire type of motorhome parking maybe we should start trying to convince motorhome dealers & the few motorhome manufacturers to create aires  after all they make their living from us so why don't they give something back. This should be not just having somewhere for their own customers (they can do this if they want as an extra area) but surely they could have space set aside for 1 or 2 motorhomes to park overnight without any charge. It would have to accepted that you can only stay one night & if all the spaces are occupied then you move on. This seems to be a common practice in Germany, we have often stayed at dealers or manufacturers on an area for overnight parking.
> 
> Getting some of these places established around the country could then be used to show councils how they would work.


 
I think a few do for there customers but this needs to be widened and sponsership needs looking at as well. Look around your motorhome and see how many companies are involved.


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## defitzi (Oct 31, 2010)

*english airres*

d tnat we contribute 

Look-it's quite simple. Councils have been ersuaded that we are like irresponsible gypsies by unadventerous people  and caravan site owners and caravan clubs that we only take and contribute nothing  Change that perception  and we will find it's like other European countries: they will seek our presence and welcome us and our spending power.
Do do your shopping-do tell folk  you are a motorhomer -and show them you do contribute and watch the result for if enough or all of do that it will be notice: it will have a good effect!. 
In 50 years I've never done my shopping before i left home-all is done wherever-as and when needed.
Oil,petrol, diesel, gas etc the same -if possible!


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 31, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Hi all,the gypsey,hippie type would be my concern if i was a councillor.What could they do to stop people taking over the council parking spot if it was aproved because somewhere down the line it would probably happen,best keep off the subject but it is worth thinking about for future reference.Keep up the good work,is there anything i could put my name to for support ,pertition ect to help,cheers Shawbags (Chris).


 
How have the existing Aires at Cambridge and Castlefergus dealt with this percieved problem. Does it even exist in reality?  Also Flyde don't seem to think that it is something that is beyond control.  I am sure that a charge would put many off and regulation would allow action.


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 31, 2010)

vipper said:


> Europe gets around this problem without any problems - how do they do it? You see Aires for Les Gens de Voyage in France.
> 
> Those barriers are a pain in la derriere. They keep me and my money out of communities.


 
The British model of traveller sites is to try to get them from travelling and get them to settle in ghettos for caravan dwellers.  They have the same problems as we have to follow the nomadic lifestyle.


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

defitzi said:


> d tnat we contribute
> 
> Look-it's quite simple. Councils have been ersuaded that we are like irresponsible gypsies by unadventerous people  and caravan site owners and caravan clubs that we only take and contribute nothing  Change that perception  and we will find it's like other European countries: they will seek our presence and welcome us and our spending power.
> Do do your shopping-do tell folk  you are a motorhomer -and show them you do contribute and watch the result for if enough or all of do that it will be notice: it will have a good effect!.
> ...



Hi Defitzi
If I ever get this off the ground I am sure the best I will get is a trial period so lots of people with that attitude is a must. 
Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> How have the existing Aires at Cambridge and Castlefergus dealt with this percieved problem. Does it even exist in reality?  Also Flyde don't seem to think that it is something that is beyond control.  I am sure that a charge would put many off and regulation would allow action.


 
Hi John,

I don' know the Aire at Cambridge. Where is it?

Richard,


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 1, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Hi John,
> 
> I don' know the Aire at Cambridge. Where is it?
> 
> Richard,



Sorry got my town wrong after all they are all the same below Scotch Corner. Ha

Canterbury Park and Ride is already an Aires in New Dover Road and that is always kept so clean and tidy.  It is not open 7 days a week but when closed you can use the bus park.

Local members of the Motor Caravanners' Club (MCC) approached Carrickfergus Borough Council and, as a result, the Council have installed a motorhome service unit at the Harbour car park and another at Whitehead car park (approx 4 miles in the direction of Larne). Both carparks have easy access and no overnight restictions.

There is also a private Aire at Ambleside.

A lot of good info here,  UKMotorhomes.net - UK Motorhome Stopover News

Also on here Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking - Places which allow overnight camping

John


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## Fleming (Nov 1, 2010)

A lot of municipalities have fraternised with French, German or Italian ones, and a lot of these have 'aires' (France), 'Stellplätze' (Germany) or 'area de sosta' (Italy). 
A simple question how they coop with this could enlighten many councils. 
Leo


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Sorry got my town wrong after all they are all the same below Scotch Corner. Ha
> 
> Canterbury Park and Ride is already an Aires in New Dover Road and that is always kept so clean and tidy.  It is not open 7 days a week but when closed you can use the bus park.
> 
> ...


 
John 
I have to forgive you for the wrong town as I did not have our park and ride on the posible site list Good to see the there is more and more Councils are being friendly towards us!
Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

Fleming said:


> A lot of municipalities have fraternised with French, German or Italian ones, and a lot of these have 'aires' (France), 'Stellplätze' (Germany) or 'area de sosta' (Italy).
> A simple question how they coop with this could enlighten many councils.
> Leo


 
Leo, 
Sorry but not sure what you mean? Who do I put the question to and how do I get the answer or what is the answer, do you know?
Richard


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2010)

*Twin*

Richaard, I think that Leo is possibly referring to Twinning which I mentioned earlier.
Suggest that the councils  ask their twinned city how they cope with an Aire.


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

***** said:


> Richaard, I think that Leo is possibly referring to Twinning which I mentioned earlier.
> Suggest that the councils  ask their twinned city how they cope with an Aire.


 
Thanks *****,
Our twin town has two small "motorhome dumps" (Google translation) and a campsite which I think I mentioned to them in my email. However I will make a point of mentioning it any further discussion.
Richard


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## Fleming (Nov 1, 2010)

And if they are afraid an 'aire' could be misused by gipsies; I didn't see, yet, gipsies with a motorhome . Most of them have vans and caravans. An 'aire' should be for motorhome tourists only


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## Tbear (Nov 1, 2010)

Fleming said:


> And if they are afraid an 'aire' could be misused by gipsies; I didn't see, yet, gipsies with a motorhome . Most of them have vans and caravans. An 'aire' should be for motorhome tourists only


 
That's the big problem. We have had lots of gipsies with all types of vans. Hope to make the point that the gangs still have a few caravans so they would have to split up to use the Aire. No bad thing eh.


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## Fleming (Nov 1, 2010)

In France, gypsies are not welcome on 'aires'. They have special spots for 'gens de voyage'. Some aires have a sign: 'interdit aux gens de voyages', 'seulement pour camping-cars' or ' s'adresser à la mairie'. Nobody did complain about 'racism'.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 1, 2010)

It occurred to me that it might also be useful for anybody approaching local authorities to look at how authorities go through their decision making process.   www.bridgend.gov.uk/web/groups/public/documents/report/069786.doc
or at how local residents might react when proposals to set up an Aire are made public.
Say No to Rest Bay Campervan Site: Residents and Visitors of Rest Bay voice concerns and objections to BCBC campervan site proposals

I thought at one time that we needed to sell ourselves to local authorities and I see that pressure groups opposing us have used the same viewpoint, ie by producing something visual and glossy.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 2, 2010)

Basil said:


> Many wildcampers pick up a little rubbish and leave the site cleaner than when they arrived....


 
That is more than the council themselves do.  We were in the Coach Park at Warkworth and the council wagon came ii to empty the waste bin.  They emptied the part full container but not anything that was not actually in the bin.  They didn't bother to pick up the other rubbish dropped around the bin or in other parts of the parking area by the coach uses.


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

maureenandtom said:


> It occurred to me that it might also be useful for anybody approaching local authorities to look at how authorities go through their decision making process.   www.bridgend.gov.uk/web/groups/public/documents/report/069786.doc
> or at how local residents might react when proposals to set up an Aire are made public.
> Say No to Rest Bay Campervan Site: Residents and Visitors of Rest Bay voice concerns and objections to BCBC campervan site proposals
> I thought at one time that we needed to sell ourselves to local authorities and I see that pressure groups opposing us have used the same viewpoint, ie by producing something visual and glossy.



Maureenandtom

Shame somebody did not use the last photos to show what happens if you only have illegal sites and how an aire would gave them chance to get rid of waste in a responsible manner.

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> That is more than the council themselves do.  We were in the Coach Park at Warkworth and the council wagon came ii to empty the waste bin.  They emptied the part full container but not anything that was not actually in the bin.  They didn't bother to pick up the other rubbish dropped around the bin or in other parts of the parking area by the coach uses.


 
John
Difficult, who is wrong? The person who did not put it in the bin or the bin man who did not pick it up. If you approached them I suspect the first would ignore you and the second would say"health and safety, might be a needle in it". Then again perhaps I'm just old,bitter and twisted


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## maureenandtom (Nov 2, 2010)

Richard,

Wonderful.  I mean it.   If you can anticipate problems and provide a solution then it doesn't become a problem, ,yes?   In this case you could emphasise, perhaps, that your proposed Aire would be beneficial in that it would concentrate campervans in one place rather than having them spread around all over the place.  Councils love to be in control.

I have lots of stuff from the time I too tried this approach.  I'll chip in with bits from time to time, yes?   If you look back to my thread on the subject you'll see why I lost heart and began to look for other methods.  

My approach was at first successful.  I was chuffed with myself.   I was even invited to a tourist officials' meeting but it all went wrong when it came up against the "cooking, sleeping, camping" rule and I hadn't done enough research.  Look at the legal objections part of the Say No website.   As I see it, from memory, councils are exempt from licencing requirements for motorcaravan camping but it's arguable if they are exempt from Fire Regulations.   Parking spaces might have to be so manuy metres apart.   Health and Safety you know.  

I'll help with research where I can but, like I said, I already have lots of stuff.

Tom


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

Fleming said:


> In France, gypsies are not welcome on 'aires'. They have special spots for 'gens de voyage'. Some aires have a sign: 'interdit aux gens de voyages', 'seulement pour camping-cars' or ' s'adresser à la mairie'. Nobody did complain about 'racism'.


 
Fleming

They have "special" spots for 'gens de voyage', which makes them special. I'm not going to get involved with the "R" word.


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

Not sure what the etiquette is but as I am not a payed up member of the "other" sites? Will somebody please let them know about this thread as their help may be invaluable. I am sure Phil will forgive me just this once.


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## Twosheds (Nov 2, 2010)

Try this site Economic Benefits - CMCA (Campervan & Motorhome Club of Australia)

There is a remarkable document which was produced by The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia”. It's called “The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained Vehicle
(MSV) Niche Market” dated 25th July 2005. I can't find it on the internet this afternoon but you may find it by googling. However, I have a PDF copy of the document (size 446 Kb) and if you can devise a way of me getting it to you then you are welcome to it.


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

Twosheds said:


> Try this site Economic Benefits - CMCA (Campervan & Motorhome Club of Australia)
> 
> There is a remarkable document which was produced by The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia”. It's called “The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained Vehicle
> (MSV) Niche Market” dated 25th July 2005. I can't find it on the internet this afternoon but you may find it by googling. However, I have a PDF copy of the document (size 446 Kb) and if you can devise a way of me getting it to you then you are welcome to it.


Thanks Twosheds I have seen it and the number of people that go to Australia to go around in a van makes them a fortune every year. Shame when they come here we try and rip them off for up to £30 a night. If they could park and sort there tanks for £3 a night then a Hol in this country sounds a whole lot better. Over £500 cheaper on a three week hol. Makes France a lot cheaper than here.
Richard


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## 15francine (Nov 2, 2010)

I have been thinking that The National Trust should be approached to include some of their carparks as Aires type parking. I thought it would fit in with their new policy of opening up !


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

15francine said:


> I have been thinking that The National Trust should be approached to include some of their carparks as Aires type parking. I thought it would fit in with their new policy of opening up !


 
Good one 15Francine! I am not taking on the Nation Trust yet  just the local council but I will add it to the possible sites list.

Richard


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## GARY ENGLISH (Nov 2, 2010)

*Council*

Hope that if any one contacts there  council,they get a result .Have tried and no others that have had no luck.


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

GARY ENGLISH said:


> Hope that if any one contacts there  council,they get a result .Have tried and no others that have had no luck.


Gary
 Come on, Give us some details. Which councils and why or how did they fail?
Richard


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## Fleming (Nov 2, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Not sure what the etiquette is but as I am not a payed up member of the "other" sites? Will somebody please let them know about this thread as their help may be invaluable. I am sure Phil will forgive me just this once.


Is the 'other' site regarded as an 'enemy' site ? Or couldn't we stand united for once in this case ?


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## Tbear (Nov 2, 2010)

Fleming said:


> Is the 'other' site regarded as an 'enemy' site ? Or couldn't we stand united for once in this case ?


 
Perhaps we should think of it a bit like a Christmas football match


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## John H (Nov 3, 2010)

Fleming said:


> In France, gypsies are not welcome on 'aires'. They have special spots for 'gens de voyage'. Some aires have a sign: 'interdit aux gens de voyages', 'seulement pour camping-cars' or ' s'adresser à la mairie'. Nobody did complain about 'racism'.


 
In France, EVERYBODY who obeys the rules is welcome on aires. I get really pissed off with people who brand all members of a group with the same characteristics. We have camped among "gypsies" and had a wonderful time accepting their hospitality; we have come across some "gypsies" who trash the place - but then we have also met several people who most would regard as respectable, middle class and wealthy but who are also not averse to dumping the toilet waste from their expensive motorhomes all over the grass. The big problem with getting local authorities to create Frech-style aires in the UK is not gypsies but motorhomers like that well-publicised idiot who got us all banned from the seafront opposite St Michael's Mount.


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## John H (Nov 3, 2010)

***** said:


> John, it's always the few bad apples that spoil it for the majority.
> We also have camped with Gipsey's and everything was ok.
> Are you sure that the car park opposite St Michaels is now out of bounds as I have not heard it was?
> I did hear the story though.


 
The last I heard, a banning order was going to be presented before the local Council - I must admit that I haven't heard the result but I assumed from the report that it would get passed. Maybe I was a little premature but I was angry as I wrote my previous reply - as you may have gathered!


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## David & Ann (Nov 3, 2010)

I live just a few miles away from St Michaels Mount. I don't think it is the car park but a stretch of parking bays along the main stretch of Road. This is where a certain Gentleman parks up for a couple of weeks every year. There are 3 proper parking areas in the vicinity. The main one which is on meters. The other 2 are further up the road where a guy collects cash and gives you are parking ticket.


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## Tbear (Nov 3, 2010)

John H said:


> In France, EVERYBODY who obeys the rules is welcome on aires. I get really pissed off with people who brand all members of a group with the same characteristics. We have camped among "gypsies" and had a wonderful time accepting their hospitality; we have come across some "gypsies" who trash the place - but then we have also met several people who most would regard as respectable, middle class and wealthy but who are also not averse to dumping the toilet waste from their expensive motorhomes all over the grass. The big problem with getting local authorities to create Frech-style aires in the UK is not gypsies but motorhomers like that well-publicised idiot who got us all banned from the seafront opposite St Michael's Mount.


 
John 

I could not agree more. Very well said!

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 3, 2010)

*Update*

Hi All

I had a chat with the man from the council today. He has agreed to look at one of the car parks very close to the city centre. ? what the parking regs for it are He has also agreed to make sure all the relevant departments of the council get a copy of my email and that we will speak again within two weeks. Nothing definite by any means but a positive start I felt from the tone of the conversation.

Richard


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## shawbags (Nov 3, 2010)

*caravans,vans or motorhomes.*



Fleming said:


> And if they are afraid an 'aire' could be misused by gipsies; I didn't see, yet, gipsies with a motorhome . Most of them have vans and caravans. An 'aire' should be for motorhome tourists only  [/QUOTE      I myself have owned factory built motorhomes in the past and i have also converted vans too,i have a citroen relay that i am converting at the moment.I will not be putting windows in the van because of 1 cost and 2 security. Many people convert vans these day because of cost but this does not make them any more irisponsible than people who can afford factory built motorhomes and as i have owned both van and motorhome i see both points. I think this could cause problems as many surfers use vans who most of the time are respectable and leave the parking areas clean and tidy but on the other hand there could be undesirables who would take advantage and have no respect for others ,cheers Shawbags.


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## AndyC (Nov 3, 2010)

I think it would be relatively straightforward for councils to incorporate into their TRO a clause to limit overnight stays to vehicles that have the body type recorded as Motor Caravan on  the V5C registration document.

AndyC


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## vwalan (Nov 3, 2010)

there is no where in the definition of a m,home that says they must have windows . a van or truck. bus can and is and always have been able to be m,homes . i have never seen any referance to windows even using definitions from years ago. i think most problems would stem from misuse by m,homes . with a time limit it could be more defined . but it still takes ages to get an ivection if m,homes or travelling folk stay longer. boughjt m,home conversion owners are very biased and can be offensive to others . they do seem to forget they only have a converted builders chassis /cab with a box chucked on . a fancy paint job and a high price. 
cheers alan.


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## shawbags (Nov 3, 2010)

AndyC said:


> I think it would be relatively straightforward for councils to incorporate into their TRO a clause to limit overnight stays to vehicles that have the body type recorded as Motor Caravan on  the V5C registration document.
> 
> AndyC


 
Hi Andyc,it might be straiforward but would it be fair, in my mind no.I could go out and buy a nice motorhome tomorrow but choose not to,a converted van is more my thing having tried a coachbuilt and even though it was very pretty with all mod cons was not for me because it spent a lot of time unused.I think we all know the type of people that would not be welcome and it would be up to the council parking inspectors/wardens to move them on,cheers Shawbags.


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## vwalan (Nov 3, 2010)

if your logbook doesnt say m,caravan . then you havent got a motor caravan. regardless of if its a self build or a bought conversion. 
i was at st michaels mount week before last you could still park by the road and camp for free . 
it takes alot of thought to word this type of thing .and there is already laws doing just that. its just they arent implemented properly. and as for tro they cant get simple ones correct . something like this could be way too difficult for a council to get right. or at least correct. come on wake up. they cant use the rules they have now correct. cheers alan.


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## shawbags (Nov 3, 2010)

*Aires,please allow me to park here,oh please,haha.*

I drove HGV through france and the aires seemed to cater for anyone that respected them,if we said motorhomes only as in no caravans, campervans, people carriers that had reclining seats that could be made into a bed then that to me would be very selfish and very wrong,remember aires are mostly used for an overnight stay.AS FOR ONLY MOTORHOMES THAT ARE REGISTERED AS SUCH IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT SOME OF THE MOTORHOME COMUNITY IS VERY BIAST,not all of course,what next a tea room for true motorhome users only,Shawbags.


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## AndyC (Nov 3, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Hi Andyc,it might be straiforward but would it be fair, in my mind no.I could go out and buy a nice motorhome tomorrow but choose not to,a converted van is more my thing having tried a coachbuilt and even though it was very pretty with all mod cons was not for me because it spent a lot of time unused.I think we all know the type of people that would not be welcome and it would be up to the council parking inspectors/wardens to move them on,cheers Shawbags.


So what regulation would you have in place which would enable the council to move the wrong type of people?

As far as I can see there has to be an agreed type of 'vehicle' that would be permitted, for an agreed period of time, for an agreed price if necessary.

Alan's right, there is no regulation that requires a vehicle registered as a motor caravan to have windows, as I understand it the basic requirements are:

seats and a table
sleeping accommodation, which may be converted from the seats
cooking facilities
storage facilities

There are various definitions of the above, but I would think any self-build that was designed for living in for more than a few days would meet those requirements and could be officially registered as a motor caravan.

AndyC


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## Tbear (Nov 4, 2010)

I suspect the people who will police this will take the attitude that if it Looks like a Duck, Quacks like a Duck, Woddles like a duck, then it Is a Duck until proven otherwise. So as AndyC says, if it has;

Seats and a table
Sleeping accommodation, which may be converted from the seats
Cooking facilities
Storage facilities

Then its a motorhome. Having to carry Reg Docs sounds a bit big brother to me. If an Aire system ever takes of in this country I can see us having a Licence to use them, something like a tax disc, get you a parking space then pay for your services?


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## vwalan (Nov 4, 2010)

its very difficult . i use aires in france etc . yes some say aires arent for caravans .but many do use them. as do hgv,s etc . all depends on the layout of the aires. even motor cycles and tents squeeze into a corner on many. also bicycles . i try to only use aires that are free . i also use truck stops ,garages ,bp very good. but we have to start somewhere . the definition of a m,home is very wide-scoped . as for aires yes if it looks like a camper .m,home we assume it is. ok. gets complicated as to can they have trailers . is a bambi ok what about a 38ft m,home  etc even in france some are spoilt if a couple of very large m,homes take over . we do have to be sensible and try to get it right . the definition was set up years ago for the benefit of m,homes . now its a bad definition or is it. as a motor home it does get special priveledges . ie . mot for heavier ones . better insurance policies .we are now trying to get parking .facilities just for m,homes . we must tread carefully . i think we do have to accept that others will use the facility as in people with out being a holiday m,homer . travellers come in all sorts of disguises and vehicles . i have known french people live on aires permanently get letters delivered by the postman and work in hospitals in good jobs. it was their address nobody cared but it was in france. not uk. can we ever get to that i dont think so. we cant even agree here and we are all m,homers of some sort. cheers alan.


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## Tbear (Nov 4, 2010)

vwalan said:


> its very difficult . i use aires in france etc . yes some say aires arent for caravans .but many do use them. as do hgv,s etc . all depends on the layout of the aires. even motor cycles and tents squeeze into a corner on many. also bicycles . i try to only use aires that are free . i also use truck stops ,garages ,bp very good. but we have to start somewhere . the definition of a m,home is very wide-scoped . as for aires yes if it looks like a camper .m,home we assume it is. ok. gets complicated as to can they have trailers . is a bambi ok what about a 38ft m,home  etc even in france some are spoilt if a couple of very large m,homes take over . we do have to be sensible and try to get it right . the definition was set up years ago for the benefit of m,homes . now its a bad definition or is it. as a motor home it does get special priveledges . ie . mot for heavier ones . better insurance policies .we are now trying to get parking .facilities just for m,homes . we must tread carefully . i think we do have to accept that others will use the facility as in people with out being a holiday m,homer . travellers come in all sorts of disguises and vehicles . i have known french people live on aires permanently get letters delivered by the postman and work in hospitals in good jobs. it was their address nobody cared but it was in france. not uk. can we ever get to that i dont think so. we cant even agree here and we are all m,homers of some sort. cheers alan.


 
Alan

Stop making it sound so complicated. Pray for a bit of common sense and bug**r off to Moroc

Richard


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## AndyC (Nov 4, 2010)

The type of vehicles that can use 'aires' varies across Europe, in France they are strictly only for 'camping-cars'. Caravans, vans, trucks, etc cannot use them. Ok some aires do get used by other types of vehicle but they are running the risk of being moved on and/or fined.

Personally I would like to see a UK system that is the same as the French one, but it's going to be a slow process. The first step is to presuade more councils to allow overnight stays. Pointing to examples like Guisborough, Bury St Edmunds, Canterbury, and Powys should at least demonstrate that it is possible to permit motorhomes to stay overnight without the perceived problems occurring.

AndyC


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## vwalan (Nov 4, 2010)

i hope that by putting forward what might seem complications you get it right first time . imagine i was the person you wanted to convince .so far you havent and cannot address the problems brought up. since when as common sense and regulations fitted together . before any council will acept change you(anybody )must have the answers to any question that get raised . remember they dont want it. its just a cost to the area in their eyes . if and when we can cover all the questions only then is there a chance. i get through life getting what i want not failing . make proper detailed plans means you succeed .taking things for granted leads to faiure.we have to start from their side and work closer to get our goal. its just like business decisions . dont start wanting let them think they are giving .


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## AndyC (Nov 4, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i hope that by putting forward what might seem complications you get it right first time . imagine i was the person you wanted to convince .so far you havent and cannot address the problems brought up. since when as common sense and regulations fitted together . before any council will acept change you(anybody )must have the answers to any question that get raised . remember they dont want it. its just a cost to the area in their eyes . if and when we can cover all the questions only then is there a chance. i get through life getting what i want not failing . make proper detailed plans means you succeed .taking things for granted leads to faiure.we have to start from their side and work closer to get our goal. its just like business decisions . dont start wanting let them think they are giving .


A lot of sense there.

What's needed is a definite proposal to put to a council, supported by arguments as to why it would benefit the local area. Let's face it, they aren't going to give us something for nothing!

Alan's right, we need to see things from the council's perspective, just saying 'Please change your regulations so that we can stay overnight' isn't going to work.

AndyC


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## vwalan (Nov 4, 2010)

thanks andy. we may only get one chance . if we spoil it in the first instance they may say no to everything. also france is three times bigger area with the same amount of population. and many more m,homers in framce . more campers etc they live to camp . and camp to live.


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## Tbear (Nov 4, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i hope that by putting forward what might seem complications you get it right first time . imagine i was the person you wanted to convince .so far you havent and cannot address the problems brought up. since when as common sense and regulations fitted together . before any council will acept change you(anybody )must have the answers to any question that get raised . remember they dont want it. its just a cost to the area in their eyes . if and when we can cover all the questions only then is there a chance. i get through life getting what i want not failing . make proper detailed plans means you succeed .taking things for granted leads to faiure.we have to start from their side and work closer to get our goal. its just like business decisions . dont start wanting let them think they are giving .


 

Sorry gents I was trying to be light hearted.

I presented a written case to the council. Which is now being discussed by the various departments all of which should have my email address so if there are any issues I will hopefully be able to sort them. If not I will be asking for your help.


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## vwalan (Nov 4, 2010)

its ok .we know you re trying hard . i do hope you succeed i have many discussions with couclis and our local authority . its hard when they consistanty get m,homes staying for weeks at a time in summer . also things like the eclipse of the sun fiasco really finished it down here . i also feel sorry for some of the spanish and portugese towns in winter .hundreds of vans parke up all winmter . all saying they spend alot of money in the neighbourhood . but they dont .lets be honest most spend as little as they can. the fuel is only while in transit and buy whats cheap where its cheap . but we wont tell the council that.


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## Tbear (Nov 4, 2010)

vwalan said:


> its ok .we know you re trying hard . i do hope you succeed i have many discussions with couclis and our local authority . its hard when they consistanty get m,homes staying for weeks at a time in summer . also things like the eclipse of the sun fiasco really finished it down here . i also feel sorry for some of the spanish and portugese towns in winter .hundreds of vans parke up all winmter . all saying they spend alot of money in the neighbourhood . but they dont .lets be honest most spend as little as they can. the fuel is only while in transit and buy whats cheap where its cheap . but we wont tell the council that.


 
Just hope they can't read then


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## vwalan (Nov 4, 2010)

i could delete it if you think they read this no probs.


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## Tbear (Nov 4, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i could delete it if you think they read this no probs.


.

Alan

I am a northern lad. I would much rather they see that we say what we mean and mean what we say but many thanks for the offer though.

Richard


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## shawbags (Nov 4, 2010)

AndyC said:


> So what regulation would you have in place which would enable the council to move the wrong type of people?
> 
> As far as I can see there has to be an agreed type of 'vehicle' that would be permitted, for an agreed period of time, for an agreed price if necessary.
> 
> ...


 
Hi again Andyc,most people will convert a van because it can be simple and cheap to do so,you might already know that to register a van as a motorhome it has to be inspected and a one of tax payment has to be paid,a lot of people don't wan't the hassle of having to do that especialy now some insurance companys will insure vans on a motorhome basis,as i said to keep it simple.We are all looking at a way of keeping the undesirables away and as i have said before wardens/inspectors would have the powers to move them on if they do not stick to the rules. Lets not complicate matters and give the councils more reason to say no,cheers Shawbags.


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## AndyC (Nov 5, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Hi again Andyc,most people will convert a van because it can be simple and cheap to do so,you might already know that to register a van as a motorhome it has to be inspected and a one of tax payment has to be paid,a lot of people don't wan't the hassle of having to do that especialy now some insurance companys will insure vans on a motorhome basis,as i said to keep it simple.We are all looking at a way of keeping the undesirables away and as i have said before wardens/inspectors would have the powers to move them on if they do not stick to the rules. Lets not complicate matters and give the councils more reason to say no,cheers Shawbags.



The DVLA will usually require to inspect a vehicle when a change of body type to 'motor caravan' is requested, but I don't think there is any payment required unless the change affects the taxation class, which won't usually be the case. The insurers must be notified of the changes and some will may require the vehicle to be registered as a motor caravan on the V5C.

I agree that the rules need to be kept simple and must allow councils to take sanctions against those that don't comply with them. The problem, as we are finding, is how to define those rules. 

Should any type of vehicle be permitted to stay overnight, or should the permission be restricted to a certain class or classes of vehicle? 

We need to see things from the councils point of view, much as we might like to see the freedom for UK 'aires' to be available to a wide range of vehicles, the councils will want to ensure that they have simple, effective and understandable enforcement powers. I can't think of a simpler definition for the type of vehicles permitted to use UK 'aires' than those registered as 'motor caravan' on the V5C. It's easily understood and easily verified. 

AndyC


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## vwalan (Nov 5, 2010)

hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.


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## Byronic (Nov 5, 2010)

I would not approach any Council or Authority to make special provision for motor caravans ie specifically Aires.
The small financial returns to any community are going to be outweighed by the general public's' shall we say negative attitude to the travelling community, which like it or not we are loosely aligned in the public imagination, and thoughts of specific areas being set aside for any group of people with the word "caravan" included in their description will reinforce this attitude. I therefore can't see any meaningful number of Aires being permitted and perhaps because the matter has been brought to the Public's and Authority's attention even more more restrictions might be imposed, as has been stated already  it's  twice as crowded here as France and this must have a bearing on attitude/cultural differences and the population disparity is only likely to increase.
Furthermore, once an aire has been established I can imagine that that will be the "compulsory" place to stop,ie no more true Wild Camping. Even with impending job cuts there's bound to be some one charged with looking out for carpark overnighting.
The DVLA have never bothered to inspect any of the 4 vans I've converted or asked for photos. 
Up to about 1990 you had to pay Duty when converting a commercial van to a motorcamper this was based on the Tax Free cost of the van when bought so it could be a significant sum. Pleased when they got rid of that.


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## Tbear (Nov 5, 2010)

vwalan said:


> hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.


 
Alan 

Do you not think that you get away with just parking up on the roadside as you (not personally) look more like a truck than a motorhome.

Richard


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## Fleming (Nov 5, 2010)

About signs:
All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !! 
Motorhomes may park also on general parkings with the E9a sign (a 'P') however not when the sign E9b is up (P sign with a car under it); only for cars, motorcycles, minibusses.( or the same: only for busses, for lorries...)
I hope this clears up the mist (and myths)


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## John H (Nov 5, 2010)

Fleming said:


> About signs:
> All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
> This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
> There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !!
> ...



It does - and in doing so makes your earlier comment about certain sectors of society being banned from aires even less understandable.


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## vwalan (Nov 5, 2010)

hi tbear .yes stealth is the answer . but i used to use other vehicles . usually vw as i ran a vw garage . but sensible parking and careful observation usually plays the greatest part. you can have a big group parked in one place nothing said move down the road .cant stay more than an hour and get asked to move. imagine my truck, a bright purple ex prison truck , a really high man truck . a merc truck . we very often all travel together . hardly ever get asked to move . but we dont always park with the rest of the campers . i must say mine as a truck i was told by traffico last year in spain can stop one night to get sleep just about anywhere . as a car and caravan you can stop one night i making a journey and get tired . again just about anywhere not near the coast . but dont bank on it. the hard bit is always if sitting out side on chairs etc .it doesnt go dowen well anywhere. having said that when in germany on m,bikes we look for a park, sleep in a park hut or bandstand even put the bikes in under cover still had no probs. i think every society doesnt like campers that look like campers . but we never stay to long keep moving .may be go and come back after a while, but keep moving . cheers alan.


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## AndyC (Nov 5, 2010)

Fleming said:


> About signs:
> All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
> This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
> There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !!
> ...


Not necessarily!

The signs may be 'available' for universal use in the EU but that doesn't mean that the individual countries have the legislation in place to allow them to be used. 

In the UK all traffic signs must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which prescribes the exact form of signs that can be used. There is lots of info here: Traffic Signs and Signals with drawings for all approved UK signs and road markings here: Working drawings for traffic signs

As far as I'm aware the motorhome parking sign is not included and therefore it's use has no meaning in UK law. There is however a sign included which indicates parking for a car and caravan, in practice this sign would exclude the parking of a motorhome! 

Incidentally, one of the commonly used methods of appealing PCNs is to prove that a non-approved form of signage or road marking was used.

AndyC


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## vwalan (Nov 5, 2010)

or speeding . every sign road marking and all the correct litegation must be adered to. i know abit about signage . we can forget anything thats not in the traffic signs regulations and general directions 2002 and any revised bits . every thing really does have to be exact. almost to the millimetre . there is alot of problems going on in europe at the moment as the eu law directive116/2001/cee this gives the impression that a m,home is a car . spain as already had a slap by the eu for trying to diferentiate. best we dont go down that route .


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 6, 2010)

AndyC said:


> Not necessarily!
> 
> The signs may be 'available' for universal use in the EU but that doesn't mean that the individual countries have the legislation in place to allow them to be used.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Andy 
In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan.  So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed.   However this also goes the other way as well.


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## Tbear (Nov 6, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Andy
> In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan.  So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed.   However this also goes the other way as well.


 
Are we not getting tied down with statute law and forgetting common law and president.
If you can get a judge to rule Black is White, then black is white under the law. However there may be an appeal


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## AndyC (Nov 6, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Andy
> In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan.  So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed.   However this also goes the other way as well.


But the 'approved' supplementary sign shows a car and caravan combination (P804.3) which together with the standard P sign (P801) indicates that the parking place is reserved for car and caravan combinations only. I guess a motorhome with a toad would be ok 

I think I'll suggest to the DfT that there is a need for an additional supplementary sign showing a motor caravan!

Incidentally the definition of 'caravan' which includes a motorhome is only applicable within the 1960 Act. Use of the term 'caravan' outside of the remit of the Act would ultimately be determined by a court unless it was accompanied by the phrase 'as defined in The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960'. It may be that a court would decide that, for purposes not related to the 1960 Act, a caravan and a motor caravan were in fact different types of vehicle. Not that it would be of much help to us, since we are discussing places where motor caravans may be occupied 'for the purposes of human habitation', which is covered by the Act.

AndyC


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## AndyC (Nov 6, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Are we not getting tied down with statute law and forgetting common law and president.
> If you can get a judge to rule Black is White, then black is white under the law. However there may be an appeal



It makes for an interesting discussion though!

All this stuff needs to be thrashed out if any progress is to made.

AndyC


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## shawbags (Nov 6, 2010)

vwalan said:


> hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.


 
Hi there,i remember a bloke i worked with converted a van to a camper and because he added more seats he had to pay a one off payment because it was classed more as a car that obviousley could carry pasengers,i think it was about £95 at the time (15 years ago),hope this explains what i'm getting at i'm no expert please reply,cheers Shawbags.


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## Christine1310 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Tbear, This subject has been raised and discussed many times on many forums without any definitive solution.  So I really wish you good luck with your efforts and hope you get somewhere.

I noticed on this thread that, and I quote,   'Local members of the Motor Caravanners' Club (MCC) approached Carrickfergus Borough Council and, as a result, the Council have installed a motorhome service unit at the Harbour car park and another at Whitehead car park (approx 4 miles in the direction of Larne). Both carparks have easy access and no overnight restrictions.'  Are you a member of the MCC, if so, maybe they could point you in the right direction about how they approached their council and what arguments they used.  Having the backup of a national club may throw some weight behind any request.

Best of luck.


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## vwalan (Nov 6, 2010)

hi he may have had to pay window tax or now its vat. there never as been a charge . i have been involved building campers all my life . friends worked for devon campers and i bought lots of their bits when they left exeter .i hear alsorts but at one time it was called window tax since the onset of vat you had to pay a percentage to 7yr old .  but you dont need windows .or even a rear /side door . there are alot of rubbish on the web about what you need but i just work to the dept of transports definition and i have a copy of how to import a vehicle into great britain.on page 30-31 it gives a very good explnation of whats required . in the 60,s you did have to have a water supply . not a sink but fixed water. later that got discontinude . its very easy to become a m,home not worth not doing it. cheers alan.


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## Byronic (Nov 6, 2010)

Alan on previous post I've stated that on completion 4 conversions I've never had to have  inspection or show photos to the DVLA. but I do remember having to pay a type of Betterment Tax up to 1990, due to new commercial vans being tax free, but m/campers were not.The tax was estimated on receipts for the work and parts involved.


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## vwalan (Nov 6, 2010)

i was building vans commercially right through the 70,80,s 90,s on and off . at one time you payed window tax .then when vat came out you had to pay athe vat back on a sliding scale upto 7 yrs old . there was for a brief while an inspection to value it for tax occasionally. about 7 yrs ago they started this photo .inspection bit. it differs through out the country .here you either go to them or they come to you. i had them to bobs truck asnd got them to look at my neighbours all at the same time once . gary nx door was having dificulties with swansea . got him his log book 3 days later. they even came out on a saturday to inspect ass we were in a hurry to finish and bob go up to scotland. before then you could just send the log book if it was an old van and it came back what ever you told them . cheers alan.


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## AndyC (Nov 6, 2010)

Christine1310 said:


> Hi Tbear, This subject has been raised and discussed many times on many forums without any definitive solution.  So I really wish you good luck with your efforts and hope you get somewhere.
> 
> I noticed on this thread that, and I quote,   'Local members of the Motor Caravanners' Club (MCC) approached Carrickfergus Borough Council and, as a result, the Council have installed a motorhome service unit at the Harbour car park and another at Whitehead car park (approx 4 miles in the direction of Larne). Both carparks have easy access and no overnight restrictions.'  Are you a member of the MCC, if so, maybe they could point you in the right direction about how they approached their council and what arguments they used.  Having the backup of a national club may throw some weight behind any request.
> 
> Best of luck.


It was the MCC Northern Ireland group, who seem to be quite pro-active in this respect. The main part of the MCC (apart from one or two individuals) have no interest in anything other than being a social and rallying club, as far as I can tell.

AndyC


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## Byronic (Nov 6, 2010)

That explains it, the last time I converted a van was more than 7 years ago so predates having to show photos.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

AndyC said:


> It was the MCC Northern Ireland group, who seem to be quite pro-active in this respect. The main part of the MCC (apart from one or two individuals) have no interest in anything other than being a social and rallying club, as far as I can tell.
> 
> AndyC


 
Hi Andy & Tbear

I get the same feeling about the MCC.  I contacted MCC as did others and didn't even get an acknowledgement when the UK Aires issue was on the Your Freedom Gov Website.  It may be worth contacting the Northern Ireland Group for information on how they got the NI Aires established.

The MCC seem to fragmented to be of any use as a lobying body.


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Andy & Tbear
> 
> I get the same feeling about the MCC.  I contacted MCC as did others and didn't even get an acknowledgement when the UK Aires issue was on the Your Freedom Gov Website.  It may be worth contacting the Northern Ireland Group for information on how they got the NI Aires established.
> 
> The MCC seem to fragmented to be of any use as a lobying body.


 
 I know what the problems are going to be.

1/ Set up Cost
2/ Parking not wanting to remove hight barriers put there to keep gypsies out.

Answers on a postcard


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

Tbear said:


> I know what the problems are going to be.
> 
> 1/ Set up Cost
> 2/ Parking not wanting to remove hight barriers put there to keep gypsies out.
> ...



My Postcard

1/ Set up costs could be minimal, if an existing car park is used when it would normally be closed.  In fact some income could be made.  Coach parks are often only required during summer months and then only from about 10am to early evening.

2/ This is the hardest problem to overcome.  We need to get over to them that we are self contained and are responsible people.  
Barriers can be opened or an area left without barriers as I have seen on some French Aires. St Cast Le Guildo N 48.608352°  E -2.230001° (Aires St Cast, du Baye - ST CAST LE GUILDO Pointe du Baye - 35 Places )has such an arangement, where the area is divided for Camping Cars and a barrier restricts parking to below 2 metres in another part on the same parking area.  Rubbish and recycling skips are provided for campers and local to use, but water and waste dump is in the village beside the road.   N 48.629308°  E  -2.255128°  (Aires St Cast - ST CAST LE GUILDO Euro Relais 2 Euro 10 places/roadside)  Euro Relais beside Tennis Courts 2 Euro.   No separate tap for cleaning cassette.

Another point we need to take into consideration is the need for change of use from Car Park, to permit overnight sleeping/cooking and eating.  Unlike Cls there is no "Permitted Development" provision in the part of the 1960 Act that allows councils to set up caravan site without needing a caravan sites licence.  
If an exempted club were to provide these facilities then planning permission or a site licence would not be needed, but 5 vans limit would result.


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> My Postcard
> 
> 1/ Set up costs could be minimal, if an existing car park is used when it would normally be closed.  In fact some income could be made.  Coach parks are often only required during summer months and then only from about 10am to early evening.
> 
> ...


 
John 

Sharing makes a lot of sense to me and as for planning permission, I think if they want to do this then permission will be granted. The problem still stands that Parking are not going to want that barrrier to come down and we may well need to share the access point. The carpark mentioned so far only has one posible point of entry. However none of this means that they could not setup  a 5 van site on the outskirts of the city. We have a lorry park close to the A1 A47  junction but that gets used by "minority groups" . Shame as it has toilets and used to have a roadside cafe. Don't know if it still has. It could be made into an ideal spot as it overlooks the river.      52.583006,-0.411628


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## shawbags (Nov 7, 2010)

vwalan said:


> its very difficult . i use aires in france etc . yes some say aires arent for caravans .but many do use them. as do hgv,s etc . all depends on the layout of the aires. even motor cycles and tents squeeze into a corner on many. also bicycles . i try to only use aires that are free . i also use truck stops ,garages ,bp very good. but we have to start somewhere . the definition of a m,home is very wide-scoped . as for aires yes if it looks like a camper .m,home we assume it is. ok. gets complicated as to can they have trailers . is a bambi ok what about a 38ft m,home  etc even in france some are spoilt if a couple of very large m,homes take over . we do have to be sensible and try to get it right . the definition was set up years ago for the benefit of m,homes . now its a bad definition or is it. as a motor home it does get special priveledges . ie . mot for heavier ones . better insurance policies .we are now trying to get parking .facilities just for m,homes . we must tread carefully . i think we do have to accept that others will use the facility as in people with out being a holiday m,homer . travellers come in all sorts of disguises and vehicles . i have known french people live on aires permanently get letters delivered by the postman and work in hospitals in good jobs. it was their address nobody cared but it was in france. not uk. can we ever get to that i dont think so. we cant even agree here and we are all m,homers of some sort. cheers alan.


 Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.



Which is why there's so much opposition in this country to providing Aires. You can't compare this country's Public attitude to motorhoming to that of France, there are significant differences to overcome in simulating their situation. France in the main has enough rural space to tolerate well spread traveller communities so in the main you don't find them crowding out the Tourist Aires.
You' ve only got to read the threads to see how problematical it is to get an Aire sanctioned in this country.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

hi shawbags .they stay .you go.there could be time limmits . as in france to regulate the staying . the park is for motor homes . you cant have both sides of the coin. i dont have a problem with hippies or gypsies or any body .but if we set a standard thats the standard . if it says m,homes only then m,homes only . if i or others stay we could be moved off .but if its a motor home i,m in i stay. we can try to cheat a bit .but rules are rules. it does seem you have a problem with hippies . why. cheers alan.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

Once you put in time limits then somebody has to police them and the bother and cost of all that palaver will make the council question whether aires are worth the bother.
You can be sure that in this country there will be a great temptation for some to overstay.
The truth is, even in France many Aires are having time limits imposed if users don't obey the rules then perhaps some of them wil be closed, lets hope not.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

many aires in france have  time limits. .some dont . but every thing depends on how you work it . some aires are part of an already policed car park. some you have to pay an attendant .unless you are french then you get up early and scarper before the attendant arrives . any aire you pay to park as to be policed if you want to monitor it. if its free then you pay to use the bourne . but at this moment are they going to be free for parking or a small charge . if a time limit is posted on the sign it does give notice to allow councils to act . there really is alot to decide its not easy . cant see many like the french ones with 250 spaces or asomething like it . free leccy etc . but would be nice. cheers alan.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

Paying for using an Aire and somebody collecting the money is one thing, what I'm getting at is the policing of the person or persons who resists moving on, quoting homelessness or Human Rights as a right to stay in a place designated as being for motorhomes ie not just for parking vehicles.


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.


 
If people are breaking the law (relating to littering, public nuisance and a whole raft of other statutes) then they can be dealt with, irrespective of whether they are in a motorhome or in a go-kart - and irrespective of whether they are hippies or not (what is your problem with hippies?).


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

The time limit imposed on some French (and Spanish and Portuguese etc) aires is there to allow the authorities to evict people if they are behaving irresponsibly. If there is plenty of space (ie off-season) and you are behaving yourself, the police rarely intervene. Most such rules/laws are there as a back-up if needed; few are imposed strictly if you are sensible and causing no-one offence. But that is not an excuse for setting up semi-permanent residence!


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Once you put in time limits then somebody has to police them and the bother and cost of all that palaver will make the council question whether aires are worth the bother.
> You can be sure that in this country there will be a great temptation for some to overstay.
> The truth is, even in France many Aires are having time limits imposed if users don't obey the rules then perhaps some of them wil be closed, lets hope not.


 
Most car parks have gates that are locked at night to prevent unauthoriesed use.  This is another reason given for not allowing motorhomes to overnight.  
The person who comes to lock up could move on those not entitled to stay and collect the fee from those that are allowed to stay.  

Hippies (New Age Travellers) are not protected by the rules for Gypies and Irish Travellers so thay can be moved without a breach of Human Rights.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

hippies and new age travellers have the same rights as you so why would you want to move them on . if breaking some bye law or the ruling of the aire then anyone can be moved on. m,homers arent privaliged people .


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hippies (New Age Travellers) are not protected by the rules for Gypies and Irish Travellers so thay can be moved without a breach of Human Rights.


 
We are all protected by the same human rights legislation - unless you happen to be a grapefruit or a slug!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

John H said:


> We are all protected by the same human rights legislation - unless you happen to be a grapefruit or a slug!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
I have asked this question from an official website for travellers.



> What differentiates a person as a "Traveller", to one who travels the roads?
> 
> When do you stop being a "Traveler"? How many generations before you cease to be a traveller?
> How long do you have to travel before you become a "Traveler"?
> ...



I quote their reply:
Dear John
Well the biggest groups of Travellers we work with are Irish Travellers, Romany Gypsies and new Travellers.
Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies are recognised ethnic minorities in England, and are protected by the Race Relations Act, new Travellers are not (they have generally chosen a travelling life, rather than being born into it).  We often use the generic term Traveller to cover all these groups.
Legislation which covers evictions from the roadside is the same as to how it affects all groups.
Only Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies are protected from racial discrimination.
Planning law has a slightly different definition for a 'Gypsy' and you do have to show that you have travelled or have a 'cultural aversion to bricks and mortar'.
I wouldn't say that you and your wife would be ethnically considered Travellers in any legal case, as you have only a distant heritage.  However if you stop on the roadside you might get evicted using legislation aimed at Travellers.
Kind regards
Emma Nuttall
Advice & Policy Manager

The roadside includes verge, lay-by, Car park (public or private where the public have access).

Homelessness or any other reason gives no protection from being moved on.

Have a look at this site for the official position by Kirklees Council.

http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/answers/gypsy/gypsy.shtml#camp


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

Exactly - Roma and others are afforded protection under the Race Relations Act (as indeed they should be) but the reply you quote makes no mention of human rights legislation which gives us ALL the same rights.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm accused of being a bit of a slug sometimes.
Doesn't really matter the social  or racial standing of an overstayer does it? He/she gets treated just the same surely, and told to go by whomever has the authority and to take their rubbish away. The point I'm making is that the accommodation pressures are such in this country that some people will be tempted to stay, the £200,000 RV. included. I'm not sure Local Authorities or the Police want the potential hassle.
If you're going to have pay to use an Aire then you might as well stay in a CL. Although you're supposed to be a member of the CC or the CandCC this is often overlooked and if the charge to stay on Motorway Services overnight are anything to go by then the CL might well be cheaper.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

Byronic said:


> I'm accused of being a bit of a slug sometimes.
> Doesn't really matter the social  or racial standing of an overstayer does it? He/she gets treated just the same surely, and told to go by whomever has the authority and to take their rubbish away. The point I'm making is that the accommodation pressures are such in this country that some people will be tempted to stay, the £200,000 RV. included. I'm not sure Local Authorities or the Police want the potential hassle.
> If you're going to have pay to use an Aire then you might as well stay in a CL. Although you're supposed to be a member of the CC or the CandCC this is often overlooked and if the charge to stay on Motorway Services overnight are anything to go by then the CL might well be cheaper.


 
I would expect to pay.  Be it for a supply of service or to park. I do this when I visit France and use their Aires.  We cannot expect to get them for nothing.  Peace of mind when parked overnight is worth something.

Allan: I have no down on new age travellers.  Yes they have the same rights as the rest of us.  I was replying to the post 



> Originally Posted by shawbags
> Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> I would expect to pay.  Be it for a supply of service or to park. I do this when I visit France and use their Aires.  We cannot expect to get them for nothing.  Peace of mind when parked overnight is worth something.


 
But in France (and other adjacent countries) there are MANY aires provided for free (sometimes even with free electricity). It seems that our European cousins have realised something that we (as a country) haven't - that is, if a car park is given over to motorhomes at night (when nobody else would be using it) then at least half the people who stop will buy something in the local area, thus boosting the local economy for nil or very little cost.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

John H said:


> Exactly - Roma and others are afforded protection under the Race Relations Act (as indeed they should be) but the reply you quote makes no mention of human rights legislation which gives us ALL the same rights.


 
Quote from the Council website I pointed people to:


*Can the Council remove Gypsies/Travellers from their land immediately?*
No, the Council must: 
•show that the Gypsies/Travellers are on the land without consent; 
•make enquiries regarding the general health, welfare and children's education; 
•*ensure that the Human Rights Acts 1998 has been fully complied with; *
•follow a set procedure in terms of proving ownership of land and details of the illegal encampment that will enable them to successfully obtain the necessary authority from the Courts to order the Gypsies/Travellers to leave the site.

We have no human right to ignore rules and regulations set for everyone else to obey.  Unless of course those rules themselves are unlawful.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

And so you should expect to pay for a service, but a lot of people are expecting it to be free because they are bringing custom in a number guises eg such as having a meal in the local restaurant etc. I see John H has beaten  me in making this point.


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Quote from the Council website I pointed people to:
> 
> 
> *Can the Council remove Gypsies/Travellers from their land immediately?*
> ...


 
And if you had asked the question "Can the Council remove people with ginger hair....?" You would have got the same response. If you are human you have the same rights under human rights legislation as any other human - the clue is in the word "human".


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

Byronic said:


> I'm accused of being a bit of a slug sometimes.
> Doesn't really matter the social  or racial standing of an overstayer does it? He/she gets treated just the same surely, and told to go by whomever has the authority and to take their rubbish away. The point I'm making is that the accommodation pressures are such in this country that some people will be tempted to stay, the £200,000 RV. included. I'm not sure Local Authorities or the Police want the potential hassle.
> If you're going to have pay to use an Aire then you might as well stay in a CL. Although you're supposed to be a member of the CC or the CandCC this is often overlooked and if the charge to stay on Motorway Services overnight are anything to go by then the CL might well be cheaper.


 
Not many CL sites close to city centres or often don't have a good bus service. Many cities have a car park which could support an Aire.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

think we got a bit crossed threaded earlier. i understand. i also realise you were answering a previous post. it just all came out wrong. i camp with loads of hippies and gypsey,s and am proud to have many as friends . i also know most dont make a mess its again only a small few . i have seen mess left by modern m,homes so they arent all clean minded . there is good and bad in all walks of life. but i do know if its for motor homes hippies can use them if in a motor home.  yet a person in a van not a motor home should be asked to move.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

John H said:


> But in France (and other adjacent countries) there are MANY aires provided for free (sometimes even with free electricity). It seems that our European cousins have realised something that we (as a country) haven't - that is, if a car park is given over to motorhomes at night (when nobody else would be using it) then at least half the people who stop will buy something in the local area, thus boosting the local economy for nil or very little cost.



Some Aires do not charge to park but you still pay to get water.  Others you pay for entry and get water included.  I have used Aires where you do not pay and nothing but parking is provided, but the ones that do charge are better maintained.  I have not yet found one where there is an unlimited supply of free electricity, but I do understand they exist.  For how long if they are abused I wonder?


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2010)

We are losing the original thread here.

How can we assist Tbear in his fight to get an Aire?


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Some Aires do not charge to park but you still pay to get water.  Others you pay for entry and get water included.  I have used Aires where you do not pay and nothing but parking is provided, but the ones that do charge are better maintained.  I have not yet found one where there is an unlimited supply of free electricity, but I do understand they exist.  For how long if they are abused I wonder?


 
You have clearly not fully experienced the wonder of the French aire system. Try the website CAMPINGCAR-INFOS or the book "Guide officiel Aires de Campingcar" - MOST aires provide free parking, free fresh water and free waste disposal. Some also provide free electricity and I have come across a few that provide free hot showers as well. Very few (and I mean very few) of those I have visited have been abused. Indeed, the FREE system is expanding in my experience - especially in countries such as Spain and Portugal. In the past month we have stayed on both Portuguese and Spanish aires that have provided free evrything, including electricity.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

i have been on an aire near biaritz and saw about 4 french vans with leccy lead going from one van to the other i asked who pays for the leccy . they then told me it was free .they winter there for months in summer move inland . of course every where can be abused . i was told just hook in if you need leccy, as it was i didnt need any . must say i look in the offical guide and only go to the free ones . if no free ones around there is lways parking in france .totally different out look to life . but in uk . we have to abide by rules etc . i think it will take many heated debates to get a good scheme going . it will almost have to be fail safe or the other people will object and refuse it. better us argue nicely amongst our selves than get the questions asked by authority . we have to have sound answers .


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Not many CL sites close to city centres or often don't have a good bus service. Many cities have a car park which could support an Aire.



You're correct in stating that.CLs tend to be where the space is. I just can't imagine many a Council meeting sympathsising much with the plight of Motorcaravanners, my guess is that they would suggest Motorcaravanners use the Town's hotels and guesthouses. At least in the Southern regions of this country they would.
It all comes down to the Authorities judging whether the plusses outweigh the minusses in providing Aires, but there can't be much harm in petitioning them except that it  tends to bring the "anti brigade"out of the woodwork, and you could find yourself with a backlash.


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## John H (Nov 7, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i have been on an aire near biaritz and saw about 4 french vans with leccy lead going from one van to the other i asked who pays for the leccy . they then told me it was free .they winter there for months in summer move inland . of course every where can be abused . i was told just hook in if you need leccy, as it was i didnt need any . must say i look in the offical guide and only go to the free ones . if no free ones around there is lways parking in france .totally different out look to life . but in uk . we have to abide by rules etc . i think it will take many heated debates to get a good scheme going . it will almost have to be fail safe or the other people will object and refuse it. better us argue nicely amongst our selves than get the questions asked by authority . we have to have sound answers .


 
I dont think its a case of having to obey the rules in the UK and not elsewhere; I think it is a difference in culture. Why is it that British supermarket managers can grasp the idea of the "loss leader" when it comes to margarine or fish fingers but not accept the same concept when it comes to providing space for motorhomes to park overnight (there is a considerable growth in supermarket aires in France at the moment)? I believe the answer is that the first knee-jerk reaction of the average Brit is "freeloader" whereas others instantly see "business opportunity". For this reason I have no belief that continental-style aires will ever take off in England. Sorry to be so negative - but I really believe that unless you change the general outlook of the Brit you will not convince him to agree to aires.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

i agree with john h . we do have to change the outlook of the british non m,homer. thats why we need to get a sound propasition to put forward . if it gets put forward half sorted then the answer is no you cant have it. the t,s have to be crossed etc. we must think of every problem ad have an answer ready . look businesslike allways gets the right result .


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

On a lighter note; when travelling through France once, I got talking to a French gypsy on an out of the way Aire, he had taken the maintenance access plate of a convenient lamp post and had twisted a connection onto the bare live leads, he said many gypsies did this and had plenty of places (not necessarily Aires) where he could "hook up". The authorities tended to turn a blind eye. Could you see that happening here?


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

yes . it does happen here and abroad. why do you think some of the parking around gib got altered . many just have a lead with crocodile clips on the end all ready for hooking up. have known houses round here set up to get leccy from street lights . not hard to do. not for me though i would get caught i,m sure .


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't know because I never camp around Gib as you would know,and I know it's done in Spain hombre. I was talking about France a completely different country. The gypsy spoke Spanish as it happens. If you read my post I was saying could you imagine the AUTHORITIES turning a blind eye in this country.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

think they do sometimes .just had the discusion with a friend here and she says lots of that going on around here . but then we are in the country . bit harder i supose in a built up area. cheers alan.
i meant in spain .not in gib .i never park in there . cant get the truck in very easily pulling the trailer .


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

So your friend reckons that some Electrical Suppliers knowingly turn a blind eye to thieving of their electricity in old Blighty!! I learn something new every day.
Don't forget the Spanish reckon Gib is Spanish. 
I thought your rig could get anywhere an 814 could!!


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

Byronic said:


> You're correct in stating that.CLs tend to be where the space is. I just can't imagine many a Council meeting sympathsising much with the plight of Motorcaravanners, my guess is that they would suggest Motorcaravanners use the Town's hotels and guesthouses. At least in the Southern regions of this country they would.
> It all comes down to the Authorities judging whether the pluses outweigh the minuses in providing Aires, but there can't be much harm in petitioning them except that it  tends to bring the "anti brigade"out of the woodwork, and you could find yourself with a backlash.


Byronic

How many people work for your local council. Do you not think that some of them may have a motorhome.The chap I am dealing with has a static van which he is talking about selling and investing in a motorhome. They are not all the enemy, some may be on our side.

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i agree with john h . we do have to change the outlook of the british non m,homer. thats why we need to get a sound propasition to put forward . if it gets put forward half sorted then the answer is no you cant have it. the t,s have to be crossed etc. we must think of every problem ad have an answer ready . look businesslike allways gets the right result .


 
Alan 
I agree which is why I am hoping that we get a quality result so the chances of it being free are nil. Water and toilets are posible, electric I doubt but you will have to pay to park. How much???


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Quote from the Council website I pointed people to:
> 
> 
> *Can the Council remove Gypsies/Travellers from their land immediately?*
> ...


 
All true John but if park on a meter you either keep putting money in or have to move on. The type of traveller you are talking about don't seem to like putting the money in. No matter how reasonable the charge


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

i think a pound a night ,maybe two .if its more then move on to a different place. 
it as to be said a quid is a quid if we wild somewhere else they get nothing ,we still need water we can always get it never found it impossible . we can tip toilet waste in quiet toilets somewhere or lift a cover . if we park outside along wa from a village town then we wont spend there . sometimes easier to pull in to a super market and never visit a local shop. so two quid max. a pound to stay ,a pound to get water . that could allow you to tip grey possibly black waste as well. i remember being if france for a few months and if i bought water at an aire it was for 100 ltres 10 francs . my containers only held 30lt so i never used the bourne found a toilet with a tap . so its always easy to get water.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Byronic
> 
> How many people work for your local council. Do you not think that some of them may have a motorhome.The chap I am dealing with has a static van which he is talking about selling and investing in a motorhome. They are not all the enemy, some may be on our side.
> 
> Richard


I don't think many would have a motorhome. Apart from asking, all you can do is estimate the percentage of motorcaravan registrations to car registrations to give a rough idea. I would hazard a guess that motorhome ownership is a small percentage. 
Certainly some may be on our side, but enough to make a difference........ I'm not so sure.


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

Alan, 
A pound to park in the middle of nowhere is a lot. A pound to park in the middle of a city for 12 hrs, I wish you luck!!!

Byronic,

Stop being so negative. It only needs the right one to have a motorhome, maybe just his mate or her mum to have one. Somebody does win the lottery every week. If we don't then I have just wasted Alan's pound


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

city ,s are the easy place to park . get there after tea time about half six you can find loads of free parking . best place ever is a city. you asked i answered . i could say i dont want to pay at all . i cant use them anyway . have used them abroad no trouble .here i never have a problem finding somewhere to park . most aires are full of pople that couldnt find a nice place unless they have their hand held. 
i do hear the locals here discussing why has that dutch van parked in the car park over there . etc . we are just half a mile from the a30 . get loads of foriegn campers park up near to eden and we have the famous roche rock. but the locals hate them parking up. i get frowned upon talking to the visitors if they go to the pub . i,m told dont encourage them. they do spend a few shillings in the pub in the coop fish and chips . etc . but they arent wanted by the locals . be hard to get something going down here i have spoken toour local coucillor . but what do you get ,there is a campsite down the road tell them to go there . the locals hate visitors just want to take their money and send them out the county.


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## Kontiki (Nov 7, 2010)

I have noticed a few aires in France now have a barrier, to enter you have to use your credit card (I believe that a UK one is no good ) there are limits on how long you can stay & they know because you have to use it to get out & you are then charged for the time. There was one at Ondres Plage (near Capbreton) electricity, water & emptying were included, fortunately the barrier wasn't in use when we were there as the electric hadn't yet been connected. 

As long as the charges are reasonable & there are facilities the system could work here in the UK, some of the car parks here already have it where you have to enter you reg. number in the parking ticket machine so this could be a way of enforcing any time limit on the number of days you can stay.

Although when we are abroad we would go for free aires if we can we don't have a problem paying at some if the location is ok. To think they would be willing to have free aires here in the UK is probably unlikely, we should try to think of ideas to make the idea of councils setting up overnight motorhome parking more palatable.


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm very positive to my own point of view! Seriously' all I want in England at least is to park up anywhere I'm legally entitled to park and to sleep in my motorhome overnight without let or hindrance, and when I leave the following day it's as though I  hadn't been there, and if do otherwise I deserve a £1000 fine.
You can't get more positive than that.


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2010)

vwalan said:


> city ,s are the easy place to park . get there after tea time about half six you can find loads of free parking . best place ever is a city. you asked i answered . i could say i dont want to pay at all . i cant use them anyway . have used them abroad no trouble .here i never have a problem finding somewhere to park . most aires are full of pople that couldnt find a nice place unless they have their hand held.
> i do hear the locals here discussing why has that dutch van parked in the car park over there . etc . we are just half a mile from the a30 . get loads of foriegn campers park up near to eden and we have the famous roche rock. but the locals hate them parking up. i get frowned upon talking to the visitors if they go to the pub . i,m told dont encourage them. they do spend a few shillings in the pub in the coop fish and chips . etc . but they arent wanted by the locals . be hard to get something going down here i have spoken toour local coucillor . but what do you get ,there is a campsite down the road tell them to go there . the locals hate visitors just want to take their money and send them out the county.


 
They need a few more tourist pounds then they can make the roads down there a bit wider,
Just joking, I would not change Devon Or Cornwall at all.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

i think if there was a vote down here they would close eden . bomb newquay. etc . life down here does get spoilt by laybys carparks being filled with campers in summer . i like it here but then i disapear into my other life in winter. . nothing wrong with the roads .life goes on we still have to drive 40ft artics etc . some of the coaches are enormous. they all get around . it toof 40 yrs to get he a30 widened at the end of my road. should have happened years ago but local opposition stops it. every where here is a village . but in summer it grows 20 times at least . but now tourists are gone . its sleepy ville again.  have fun cheers alan.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 7, 2010)

Byronic said:


> I'm very positive to my own point of view! Seriously' all I want in England at least is to park up anywhere I'm legally entitled to park and to sleep in my motorhome overnight without let or hindrance, and when I leave the following day it's as though I  hadn't been there, and if do otherwise I deserve a £1000 fine.
> You can't get more positive than that.



I'm with you 100% on that.


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## vwalan (Nov 7, 2010)

and you can .there are laws that allow that . its just that people will not stand up and tell authority to stop breaking the law. anyone that does is a trouble maker. we are suposed to go cap in hand and beg for our rights . thats uk . always as been . even worse down here still in the squire rules . if you dont behave i shall have your missus and kick you out of your home.


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> I have noticed a few aires in France now have a barrier, to enter you have to use your credit card (I believe that a UK one is no good ) there are limits on how long you can stay & they know because you have to use it to get out & you are then charged for the time. There was one at Ondres Plage (near Capbreton) electricity, water & emptying were included, fortunately the barrier wasn't in use when we were there as the electric hadn't yet been connected.
> 
> As long as the charges are reasonable & there are facilities the system could work here in the UK, some of the car parks here already have it where you have to enter you reg. number in the parking ticket machine so this could be a way of enforcing any time limit on the number of days you can stay.
> 
> Although when we are abroad we would go for free aires if we can we don't have a problem paying at some if the location is ok. To think they would be willing to have free aires here in the UK is probably unlikely, we should try to think of ideas to make the idea of councils setting up overnight motorhome parking more palatable.


 
I think its a good idea but the problem with having a lot of security and services is the set up cost so you have to have a high premium to stay there so every one goes off to free sites and you may well bankrupt yourself. If we can use a car park that has some security already and may have toilets and water, then you can charge a sensible sum and make a small profit to reinvest The trouble I am having is that the security is a hight bar


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 8, 2010)

Tbear said:


> I think its a good idea but the problem with having a lot of security and services is the set up cost so you have to have a high premium to stay there so every one goes off to free sites and you may well bankrupt yourself. If we can use a car park that has some security already and may have toilets and water, then you can charge a sensible sum and make a small profit to reinvest The trouble I am having is that the security is a hight bar


 
We encountered these barrier sites.  The problems we found were although people had to get a ticket to get in many were tail-ending other vans out so upsetting the count system.  The Aire at Boulogne Sur Mere was only half full but would not let anyone in because its count reckoned it was full because of this problem.  At Tregastel the barrier was constantly failing and people were entering without a ticket but couldn't leave because they had no ticket to put into the machine with their credit card.  We used the Smart car to get around the barrier on a couple of occasions to come back in getting a ticket so a van could leave. It would only issue a ticket if a vehicle was on the pad at the entrance.  Most of the sites were charging about 7 euro with barriers.  3 or 4 euro if a collector called.  Most bornes gave 100 litres of water for 2 euro but some were down to 50 litres.

On the question of Electricity I saw a site that had electricity at Arzon, but there were so many vans linking together it would have made the supply well overloaded.  6 to 8 or more vans on a 4 amp supply.  Not worth the bother of getting a cable out.  I believed this was still a pay supply, but I may be wrong.


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## John H (Nov 8, 2010)

Tbear said:


> It only needs the right one to have a motorhome, maybe just his mate or her mum to have one.


 
In a dictatorship (and sometimes I think democracy is over-rated!) this would be so but in reality even the rich councillors are looking over their shoulders at "public opinion". Their prime concern is not the validity of the argument but how to get re-elected next time (and I speak as an ex-councillor!). This is why I have indicated before that if you are starting a campaign then the people to get on your side are not so much the elected councillors but the senior officials whose position does not depend on votes. They can write reports for councillors that slant things in one direction or another - and if it all goes wrong then the elected councillors take the blame! So what you want is a senior council official with a motorhome - preferably in the highways or planning departments. I know I have taken a light-hearted approach to this but that is a serious point. And good luck. Personally I don't think much of your chances but I won't attempt to stop you trying.


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## John H (Nov 8, 2010)

vwalan said:


> and you can .there are laws that allow that . its just that people will not stand up and tell authority to stop breaking the law. anyone that does is a trouble maker. we are suposed to go cap in hand and beg for our rights . thats uk . always as been . even worse down here still in the squire rules . if you dont behave i shall have your missus and kick you out of your home.


 
I second the first part of that (can't speak for the squire, though!).


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

John H said:


> In a dictatorship (and sometimes I think democracy is over-rated!) this would be so but in reality even the rich councillors are looking over their shoulders at "public opinion". Their prime concern is not the validity of the argument but how to get re-elected next time (and I speak as an ex-councillor!). This is why I have indicated before that if you are starting a campaign then the people to get on your side are not so much the elected councillors but the senior officials whose position does not depend on votes. They can write reports for councillors that slant things in one direction or another - and if it all goes wrong then the elected councillors take the blame! So what you want is a senior council official with a motorhome - preferably in the highways or planning departments. I know I have taken a light-hearted approach to this but that is a serious point. And good luck. Personally I don't think much of your chances but I won't attempt to stop you trying.


 
Sorry John, I should have made it clear that I am not dealing with an actual councillor but a senior official, who is acting as a go between, forwarding everthing to the relevant departments. I have got to say that the council seem a lot more posative than some members of this site. The only barrier they have put forward so far is the height barriers on most car parks. There has been talk of two posible sites where this may not be an issue. No promises have been made, just tentative talk.

The problems we are having with the "travellers" at present may well be an election issue!!

I really thought you guys would want to get behind this


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## John H (Nov 8, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Sorry John, I should have made it clear that I am not dealing with an actual councillor but a senior official, who is acting as a go between, forwarding everthing to the relevant departments. I have got to say that the council seem a lot more posative than some members of this site. The only barrier they have put forward so far is the height barriers on most car parks. There has been talk of two posible sites where this may not be an issue. No promises have been made, just tentative talk.
> 
> The problems we are having with the "travellers" at present may well be an election issue!!
> 
> I really thought you guys would want to get behind this


 
Good luck! Sorry about my cynicism but it comes from years of being a cynic! And to re-enforce that, every time people talk about winning councils over it usually results (if it happens at all) in charges being imposed to park overnight that are equal to or greater than CLs, where you can also get fresh water and dispose of waste. I'm sorry but I don't regard that as a victory. On the other hand, if you can persuade your local council to offer free overnight parking or provide water/waste/electricity at a modest fee then more power to your elbow. And if you can get them to provide the kind of free aire that you find all over France I will eat this website!


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

John H said:


> Good luck! Sorry about my cynicism but it comes from years of being a cynic! And to re-enforce that, every time people talk about winning councils over it usually results (if it happens at all) in charges being imposed to park overnight that are equal to or greater than CLs, where you can also get fresh water and dispose of waste. I'm sorry but I don't regard that as a victory. On the other hand, if you can persuade your local council to offer free overnight parking or provide water/waste/electricity at a modest fee then more power to your elbow. And if you can get them to provide the kind of free aire that you find all over France I will eat this website!


 
John As I said a little while back, many CLs are well out of town and sometimes not on a good bus route. Then you have to pay to park (if you can) in town as well as pay for your CL site. I am not planning to provide a free site. Rather reasonable parking for a reasonable fee. Toilets and water would be nice but I would not hold your breath for a hookup.


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## John H (Nov 8, 2010)

Tbear said:


> John As I said a little while back, many CLs are well out of town and sometimes not on a good bus route. Then you have to pay to park (if you can) in town as well as pay for your CL site. I am not planning to provide a free site. Rather reasonable parking for a reasonable fee. Toilets and water would be nice but I would not hold your breath for a hookup.


 
There are those of us who regard a reasonable fee for parking as no fee at all! That's one of the advantages of being an old fart - I can park up for free in the countryside and use my free bus pass to visit the town. But don't be discouraged by me - I expect there are younger motorhomers out there who would welcome your site if it comes to fruition.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2010)

John H said:


> Good luck! Sorry about my cynicism but it comes from years of being a cynic! And to re-enforce that, every time people talk about winning councils over it usually results (if it happens at all) in charges being imposed to park overnight that are equal to or greater than CLs, where you can also get fresh water and dispose of waste. I'm sorry but I don't regard that as a victory. On the other hand, if you can persuade your local council to offer free overnight parking or provide water/waste/electricity at a modest fee then more power to your elbow. And if you can get them to provide the kind of free aire that you find all over France I will eat this website!


Maybe thats where the entire emphasis and effort should be put  ie solely on Aires in strategic locations, where there's a shortage of convenient alternatives such as CLs.


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Maybe thats where the entire emphasis and effort should be put  ie solely on Aires in strategic locations, where there's a shortage of convenient alternatives such as CLs.


 
Byronic 
I look forward to seeing your research on where viable sites are, where there are no  alternatives. You will need to take into account distances and transport. Can you imagine the debate on what a reasonable distance is? Also how viable will the local CLs be for the next twenty years (incase they close) to know if its worth putting an Aire in the area.
The alternative, get an Aire if you can.
Richard


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2010)

Well I would have thought that when you approach the Council you either ask of them "Could you find us a suitable site for an Aire in your wonderful town" or you get an idea of need from Motorcaravanner feedback or indeed your own experience, and then approach the Council with "your" suggestion of a suitable site. 
The person or group charged with making representation to the Council makes their own judgement on the practicalities re.  position/distances etc. 
I'm trying to be positive here!
ps I admire your efforts, but I admit that I'm another one who will eat part of the website if you succeed in getting a meaningful number of French style  Aires established here.


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Well I would have thought that when you approach the Council you either ask of them "Could you find us a suitable site for an Aire in your wonderful town" or you get an idea of need from Motorcaravanner feedback or indeed your own experience, and then approach the Council with "your" suggestion of a suitable site.
> The person or group charged with making representation to the Council makes their own judgement on the practicalities re.  position/distances etc.
> I'm trying to be positive here!
> ps I admire your efforts, but I admit that I'm another one who will eat part of the website if you succeed in getting a meaningful number of French style  Aires established here.


 Bryonic 
I do appreciate your interest but you must try and understand my frustration. Please read my first post. I am only looking for reasons to try to establish 1 Aire in my home town not a meaningful number, and when the "I'm trying to be positive here!"  is  " I'm another one who will eat part of the website if you succeed in getting a meaningful number of French style  Aires established here" You are meant to be the support I was asking for.
How do you eat a Website


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2010)

You are right to be frustrated, the thread has got very long winded and strayed from the particular. I was addressing the subject in general.
My 3 dongle connection (cancelled my landline contract)is so slow I get frustrated back tracking and give up most of the time, its a good excuse anyway.
How do I eat a website? I don't know, I  just wanted to appear up to date, but I hope it comes with chips. Although I don't reckon I'll be put to the test.


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## Tbear (Nov 8, 2010)

Byronic said:


> You are right to be frustrated, the thread has got very long winded and strayed from the particular. I was addressing the subject in general.
> My 3 dongle connection (cancelled my landline contract)is so slow I get frustrated back tracking and give up most of the time, its a good excuse anyway.
> How do I eat a website? I don't know, I  just wanted to appear up to date, but I hope it comes with chips. Although I don't reckon I'll be put to the test.


 
When you come and stay at the Aire I,ll buy the chips and maybe even a pint to wash it all down with


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## Kontiki (Nov 8, 2010)

You are right & we should be offering you support to get at least one aire type parking established rather than being negative. Hope you succeed & if I visit I'll buy the fish to go with the chips


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## Tbear (Nov 9, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> You are right & we should be offering you support to get at least one aire type parking established rather than being negative. Hope you succeed & if I visit I'll buy the fish to go with the chips



Thanks Kontiki. They have not said "No" so I will look forward to it.


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## vwalan (Nov 9, 2010)

hi ,hopefully its not negative .just good discusion ready for the talk with the council rep. they will be negative .hopefully lots of ideas have been put to tbear and he will be ready for any questions asked . if we all just said good easy . he wouldnt be ready . anyway best of luck with it . lets hope it starts a craze . cheers alan.


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2010)

Tbear, I'm thinking positive or at least veering toward devils advocacy, your points 2,3,4 seem reasonable to present to the Council. 
Ifthe Council is favourably disposed towards promoting tourism perhaps you could emphasise how popular m/homing is in Continental Europe and how, with an Aire the town could figure  on the European touring itinerayPOIs etc. You could massage the Councillor's egos stating how forward thinking they would be in being the first in the area or region to have an Aire.
Could you request an Aire be established for an agreed trial period subject to a General Public Acceptance....... obviously somewhere where it would cost peanuts.
Your point 1 Iagree with RG1, I wouldn't mark out  M/Caravanners for distinction as regards their responsible attitude to rubbish disposal etc, they the Council may well think that M/Caravanners are being delusionary in thinking that they will be considered any differently to the Public in general. You'd have to have the evidence first.


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## Tbear (Nov 9, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Tbear, I'm thinking positive or at least veering toward devils advocacy, your points 2,3,4 seem reasonable to present to the Council.
> Ifthe Council is favourably disposed towards promoting tourism perhaps you could emphasise how popular m/homing is in Continental Europe and how, with an Aire the town could figure  on the European touring itinerayPOIs etc. You could massage the Councillor's egos stating how forward thinking they would be in being the first in the area or region to have an Aire.
> Could you request an Aire be established for an agreed trial period subject to a General Public Acceptance....... obviously somewhere where it would cost peanuts.
> Your point 1 Iagree with RG1, I wouldn't mark out  M/Caravanners for distinction as regards their responsible attitude to rubbish disposal etc, they the Council may well think that M/Caravanners are being delusionary in thinking that they will be considered any differently to the Public in general. You'd have to have the evidence first.



Byronic,

I see what you mean. Point 1 reflects a major local problem in that the travellers have been leaving areas in the city in a bit of a mess, which is costing the council a lot of money to clear up.Give them a chance not to do this, who knows?

The state of play at present is that they have received my email. This is being copied to all relevant departments, then in about a weeks time I will find out if they are prepared to talk. The feedback I have so far is that it is possible but not probable. I have three sites that I hope to discuss, one inner city, one in a local park on a good bus route about two miles out and one about four miles out in a beauty spot. No bus route but near A1, petrol and farm park. access to supermarket before town centre.
Just got to hope one department is going to listen, tourism is a possible.

Richard


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2010)

Yes the nub of the problem, somebody's chucking the rubbish around and you think you can identify a section of society that are the culprits, but you know it's not "Regular Motorcaravaner" that are responsible. How do you differentiate between the 2 groups, and appear not to look prejudiced in some way......difficult.


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## Tbear (Nov 9, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Yes the nub of the problem, somebody's chucking the rubbish around and you think you can identify a section of society that are the culprits, but you know it's not "Regular Motorcaravaner" that are responsible. How do you differentiate between the 2 groups, and appear not to look prejudiced in some way......difficult.


 
You give em a go and if they mess up you punish them. You could ban them, fine them but I'd put their vans in a crusher. I'd give them a sporting chance to get out first


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2010)

That means of course you'd do exactly the same if I or you transgressed? If so then no need to differentiate we all get treated equally.
I'm with you, throw out rubbish illegally.... van crushed.


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## Tbear (Nov 9, 2010)

Tbear said:


> You give em a go and if they mess up you punish them. You could ban them, fine them but I'd put their vans in a crusher. I'd give them a sporting chance to get out first


 
My sister in law once told me that she thought I was to the right of Ghingus Khan. I think we are both perfectly moderate don't you


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2010)

Those to the left of Stalin would probably do the same if they wanted an Aire in Russia!!!


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## Kontiki (Nov 9, 2010)

What about trying to get something established at a park & ride, this works ok at the Canterbury park & ride. Maybe this would be more acceptable as many park & rides by their nature are outside of the town.


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## Tbear (Nov 9, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> What about trying to get something established at a park & ride, this works ok at the Canterbury park & ride. Maybe this would be more acceptable as many park & rides by their nature are outside of the town.


 
Kontiki,
Park and ride is on on the list I know the local C&CC DA use school car parks at weekends so any form of park is up for debate, if I can get one started.
Richard


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Byronic said:


> Yes the nub of the problem, somebody's chucking the rubbish around and you think you can identify a section of society that are the culprits, but you know it's not "Regular Motorcaravaner" that are responsible. How do you differentiate between the 2 groups, and appear not to look prejudiced in some way......difficult.


 
If somebody has chucked rubbish around, a SECTOR of society is not to blame - an individual is! And if you can gather evidence against that individual (by, for example, CCTV) then you can punish him/her. The reason why "it is difficult not to lok prejudiced in some way" is because your statement IS prejudiced.


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

John H said:


> If somebody has chucked rubbish around, a SECTOR of society is not to blame - an individual is! And if you can gather evidence against that individual (by, for example, CCTV) then you can punish him/her. The reason why "it is difficult not to lok prejudiced in some way" is because your statement IS prejudiced.


 
John

If a group of people come to your area 2 or 3 times a year and create a problem then to expect that group to do it again may make you prejudice but to try and do something about it, within the law, is common sense.

Richard


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## Byronic (Nov 10, 2010)

John H, thats precisely why I say you "think" you can indentify a group of society etc.


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Tbear said:


> John
> 
> If a group of people come to your area 2 or 3 times a year and create a problem then to expect that group to do it again may make you prejudice but to try and do something about it, within the law, is common sense.
> 
> Richard


 
Your statement is not prejudiced. If a group of people repeatedly cause a problem then that group of people should be punished. What I was objecting to was the use of the word "sector". In other words, if you and a group of mates commit a crime then you and your group of mates should be punished; but not the whole of the town you come from!


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Byronic said:


> John H, thats precisely why I say you "think" you can indentify a group of society etc.


 
What on earth do you mean by a "group of society"? If you mean, as Tbear said, a specific group of people who you can identify individually then OK but if you mean that if a resident of Glasgow commits a crime then all Glaswegians should be banned from the area then you couldn't be more wrong. I suspect you mean the latter.


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

John H said:


> What on earth do you mean by a "group of society"? If you mean, as Tbear said, a specific group of people who you can identify individually then OK but if you mean that if a resident of Glasgow commits a crime then all Glaswegians should be banned from the area then you couldn't be more wrong. I suspect you mean the latter.


 
John

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between. If you can identify individuals within a group as trouble makers then it is reasonable to think that others within that group will tolerate if not support the ring leaders. It all depends on the ratio, If one in a million are trouble makers then they are a very nice bunch. If one in three are known trouble makers, then that's a different matter.

Richard


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## Byronic (Nov 10, 2010)

What I'm saying is that if you are wanting to identify a group in society that you think has a greater propensity to eg throw rubbish around than society in general, then how can you prove this to a hopefully, unbiased unprejudiced Authority what proof do you have of your assumptions, ie what qualifies you to point the finger of accusation at a certan group. You "might" be correct in your assumptions but first habeas corpus. If,and it's a very big if, you do have this irrefutable proof, then arises the question of do you punish the innocent in the group as well as the transgressors? A very big question that.  

IMHO if members of a group throw rubbish around then crush the vehicles but only of the culpable individuals, just as would apply to the rest of society.  Which is what I believe prevails in this country, thankfully.

The problem I think is that the penalties just aren't applied  often enough and they are not tough enough, the metaphorical van crushing should be a reality. In the end  though only education is the real solution.


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

Can we go back to how I get the nice man in transport to give me an Aire


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Tbear said:


> John
> 
> I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between. If you can identify individuals within a group as trouble makers then it is reasonable to think that others within that group will tolerate if not support the ring leaders. It all depends on the ratio, If one in a million are trouble makers then they are a very nice bunch. If one in three are known trouble makers, then that's a different matter.
> 
> Richard


 
If one in three members of any group are trouble makers then two in three aren't and it is appalling that you think they should be punished for the sins of the other one. As for it being "reasonable to think that others will tolerate...." thank goodness the legal system in this country requires evidence not assumptions.


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Byronic said:


> a group in society that you think has a greater propensity to eg throw rubbish around than society in general


 
I'd stop digging that hole if I were you. If green-eyed people have a "propensity to throw rubbish around" (whatever that means) then should you be punished because you happen to have green eyes???????????


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Can we go back to how I get the nice man in transport to give me an Aire


 
certainly - if people stop using this forum to expound prejudiced nonsense.


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## Byronic (Nov 10, 2010)

John H said:


> I'd stop digging that hole if I were you. If green-eyed people have a "propensity to throw rubbish around" (whatever that means) then should you be punished because you happen to have green eyes???????????


 
You just have't got it. I'm "suggesting" that if someone where to persue that line of approach they would have great difficulty in getting an Aire sanctioned. If you read the post properly you'll see that my own view for what it's worth does not agree with discriminating against groups,comprendi?


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

John H said:


> If one in three members of any group are trouble makers then two in three aren't and it is appalling that you think they should be punished for the sins of the other one.


 
John

You seem determined to miss the point here. Nobody has punished anybody but if you have a group of people where 1in3 people are known trouble makers and it is a situation where there is often trouble you have to wonder about the motives of the other two. I am not suggesting we hang them without trial. When the vandalism starts whats the chances the other two are going to be complicit. How many do you think will walk away? How many of them will encourage the wrong doers or join in? Still nobody has been punished but it would seem common sense to keep an eye on such groups and when and if it kicks off to subject the guilty parties to the rule of law.

Should you want further information may I suggest you talk to the medics who worked the streets of Northern Ireland during the troubles.

Can we please get back to title of this thread.

Richard


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Byronic said:


> You just have't got it. I'm "suggesting" that if someone where to persue that line of approach they would have great difficulty in getting an Aire sanctioned. If you read the post properly you'll see that my own view for what it's worth does not agree with discriminating against groups,comprendi?


 
If that is so then you ought to think very carefully about how you express yourself. Talking about groups that have "a greater propensity" than others to do wrong and using phrases such as "sections of society" when trying to identify who to blame is inflammatory at best. It doesn't sound like the kind of language used by people who are opposed to discrimination. But I will take you at your word.


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## John H (Nov 10, 2010)

Tbear said:


> John
> 
> You seem determined to miss the point here. Nobody has punished anybody but if you have a group of people where 1in3 people are known trouble makers and it is a situation where there is often trouble you have to wonder about the motives of the other two. I am not suggesting we hang them without trial. When the vandalism starts whats the chances the other two are going to be complicit. How many do you think will walk away? How many of them will encourage the wrong doers or join in? Still nobody has been punished but it would seem common sense to keep an eye on such groups and when and if it kicks off to subject the guilty parties to the rule of law.
> 
> ...


 
"Wondering" about somebody's motives is a step backwards from making the assumption that if one member of a group is a trouble-maker then the other two are likely to be the same. What you say in this post I can accept; what you said in the previous one I can't.


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## barnybg (Nov 10, 2010)

*English aires ?*

I dont want to come over as  'putting you down' but what happened to setting up_ as an association _ so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one (* Motorhome365 * was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??
I realise that your doing this  yourself in 'your town'  (glad someone has got off thier backside) but couldn't it jeapordise   _ Aires _ or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?
I dont know YOU,or your ...council meeting skills,but be sure,if not done right,will be detromental to 'others' trying to do the same.
I know i come in ,on this thread a little late,and it also looks like you were going to do it any way,but it could become a disastrous meeting etc,which will not only prevent a 'site' /aire in your town/area,it would be an Agenda not to listen or support further 'Motorhomers' achieving it,also a good reason for othercouncils,NOT TO !
I'm also picking up on the title,wether it yours or someone else's? English Aires,NOT _ stop over in your area/town _ which is a big difference.


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

barnybg said:


> I dont want to come over as  'putting you down' but what happened to setting up_ as an association _ so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one (* Motorhome365 * was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??
> I realise that your doing this  yourself in 'your town'  (glad someone has got off their backside) but couldn't it jeapordise   _ Aires _ or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?
> I dont know YOU,or your ...council meeting skills,but be sure,if not done right,will be detromental to 'others' trying to do the same.
> I know i come in ,on this thread a little late,and it also looks like you were going to do it any way,but it could become a disastrous meeting etc,which will not only prevent a 'site' /aire in your town/area,it would be an Agenda not to listen or support further 'Motorhomers' achieving it,also a good reason for othercouncils,NOT TO !
> I'm also picking up on the title,whether it yours or someone else's? English Aires,NOT _ stop over in your area/town _ which is a big difference.


 
Yes Barnbg, you are correct if the council decide its a bad idea then its a bad idea. I have failed.I think the chances of it affecting other councils in a big way are remote. The reverse does not seem true, other towns setting  Aires does not seem to have affected our council, nor does the fact that our twin town has two. In fact there is to the best of my knowledge no such thing as an English Aire,  its French. The only reason I used the term is that I did not have a better one. Therefore there is no big difference between an aire and motorhome stopover. You might argue the level of service should warrant a different title but my life is too short to worry about such nit picking. The reason I am doing this is the alternative is to sit on my backside and listen to the whining about nothing getting done.  I'm not good at that. What are you doing to help?


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## barnybg (Nov 10, 2010)

*Stopover not Aire ? English not British ?*

Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that  you are similar to me...and _ran _
I hope you have good meetings and  get your goal.
have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365

I am only a member,like this site,i have no other connection,but feel that we should stand together,be it from me (2000 miles away) Uk is my country and i will be back !


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2010)

barnybg said:


> Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
> I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that  you are similar to me...and _ran _
> I hope you have good meetings and  get your goal.
> have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365
> ...


 
I don't do groups and committees. Tend to find they are dominated by one or two people who want more people to share the blame when it all goes wrong.  
Don't really think I am rushing as the people I am dealing with are trained professionals with many years of experience. Also if you look at my original post it was a request for help with the possible details.
If I get this right then the council will be very happy. If I get it wrong then either nothing will happen or it will be my fault. But with a little bit of luck I.ll be able to sit back with a beer and think I gave it my best shot.
No I have never heard of Motorhome365 but I will google them.


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## Kontiki (Nov 10, 2010)

Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 11, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site


 
If he has to charge, so be it.  We cannot expect other people to provide these sites at their own expense.



> barnybg
> 
> I don't want to come over as 'putting you down' but what happened to setting up as an association so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one ( Motorhome365 was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??



The Motorhome Fulltimers Association (Motorhome365) aims to give a stronger voice to *fulltimers* in their struggle with officialdom. Too often fulltimers are penalised because the “system” is  not geared up for those who wish to travel full time in their motorhomes.  Jim has stressed it is not just another motorhome forum.   

This site specialises in Wild Camping in Motorhomes.  Each has its own speciality but share members and interests.



> barnybg
> English aires ?
> 
> I realise that your doing this yourself in 'your town' (glad someone has got off thier backside) but couldn't it jeapordise Aires or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?



As things stand there is not much possibility that Aires can be set up by a large national body.  Each local Authority needs to be approached and local knowledge is essential.  This has been a long road and there have been successes by approaching local authorities individually.  Good luck to Tbear.  I have been there myself.

Because one persons attempt fails, it does not mean another will not succeed.  We have to keep pressing.  One drop of water doesn't wear a stone away, but repeated drops can over time.  As we pool knowledge we may overcome the objections.

I hoped we might get some support when the "Your Freedom website" was going but only 109 motorhomers bothered to support the call for UK Aires.  

The only hope for an easy way to get Aires is for national government to issue planning guidance to all local authorities to give presumed planning consent to allow them, as is the case with TV aerial or satellite dishes.  CLs have presumed planning consent.  At present local authorities insist that they have to go through the planning procedures to give themselves consent.  They do not need Caravan Site Licences as this is provided for in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

barnybg said:


> Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
> I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that  you are similar to me...and _ran _
> I hope you have good meetings and  get your goal.
> have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365
> ...


 
Sorry Barneybg I have heard of motorhome365, just did not remember the name (must be getting old) however when trying to get something done I relate more to my peers. This site seemed to fit that description better.
Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site


 
Hi Kontiki,

I had a look at the website. Met the guy once at a show. Know what you mean

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> If he has to charge, so be it.  We cannot expect other people to provide these sites at their own expense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
John,

Positive! Makes loads of sense! Thank you

Richard


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## Kontiki (Nov 11, 2010)

No one website/person or group can represent everybody. Fulltimers or not setting up aires is for the benefit of the whole motorhome community & people can use whatever means they want to this aim. Any individual who tries to  get any type of facility established should be encouraged & applauded for taking the time & trouble to do it. 

To me fulltimers should be aware of the problems if they want to stay in the UK, in some respects they have less rights to argue for aires as they usually don't pay council tax, where as us part time campers would contribute to any type of aire setup up in their area.


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> No one website/person or group can represent everybody. Fulltimers or not setting up Aires is for the benefit of the whole motorhome community & people can use whatever means they want to this aim. Any individual who tries to  get any type of facility established should be encouraged & applauded for taking the time & trouble to do it.
> 
> To me fulltimers should be aware of the problems if they want to stay in the UK, in some respects they have less rights to argue for Aires as they usually don't pay council tax, where as us part time campers would contribute to any type of aire setup up in their area.


 
Kontiki,

Bit controversial but I agree with every word. 

Richard


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## barnybg (Nov 11, 2010)

I think you have missed my point,and i'm not going into every poster etc,so i'll leave it there.
Only you mentioned this being 'the site'and peers,if this was so,then you wouldn't be tackling it on your own ?
I enjoy this site,and am not putting it down in any way,but it seemed that 'it'didn't want to go into politics or whatever,then when i seen the other  site ,saying its aims and that 'IT would' ,then that is why i chose to put some of my ideas forward.
Yes,its aimed at 'fulltimers' but i would of thought  ANYONE with a motorhome/campervan was to gain and should stand united,not oh i only go out on weekends or 1 week a year etc etc,EVERYONE with WHATEVER wheeled home,should try to be together,go through the issues and go forward ,together.I have learnt that,one or two ,they can booh hoo off,100 to  a 1000 strong is more of a comitment and maybe a money earner in thier eyes.As for counciltax and the like, silly observasions like that,i'm afraid will only 'split and stop' motorhoming becoming more of a group and lifestyle,there is ways round that,if you take the trouble to join or read posts on 'that site'.
As for Aires,are we talking fullammenities/campsitetype places or are you just going for carpark/stopovers,there is a BIG difference !Perhaps an Aire type per county and then several 'stopover' sites like a carpark only for campers ?,but must be kept 'cheap' unless defeating the object ?and by creating such places,which have not been discussed with the majority,could in the councils eyes,ban all other stopping /camping etc,saying that there is somewhere provided ?
There are several things needed,somewhere safe and convenient for motorhomes/campers (thats NOT caravans or lorries).
somewhere to empty tanks of both sorts (per county if money unavailable)
Somewhere for  fresh or drinking water ?All other things are  'extras' really...Motorway services provided  this in a way,many many years ago,as by law(?),you should stop every 2 hours or sleepover ? Its not that we  need an all singing and dancing CAMPSITE's but areas  where we are not discrimanated against,(which we are )and i think being classed as ...(gypsies/no not gypsies,..the wrong types) as homeowners and councils will say,sadly i have seen these types in posh very expensive Motorhomes,who think nothing of dumping thier bag of rubbish or sceptic waste  tankover a hedge,because THIER FULL....says it all dont it,wouldn't be so bad if they buried it !!!unfortunately that gives US ALL a bad name,as this was brought up at the infamous PORTHCAWL/Bridgend petition,against  a site in a stunning area the surfers use,and really close to where I and my mam live ( a stones throw).
What was needed there,was a legimit group/association,like the carravaners have set up,explaining everything,they usually dont listen to one or two,or you'll have a corner of a carpark designated at £2 per hour...great,go for it.


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## Tbear (Nov 11, 2010)

barnybg said:


> I think you have missed my point,and i'm not going into every poster etc,so i'll leave it there.
> Only you mentioned this being 'the site'and peers,if this was so,then you wouldn't be tackling it on your own ?
> I enjoy this site,and am not putting it down in any way,but it seemed that 'it'didn't want to go into politics or whatever,then when i seen the other  site ,saying its aims and that 'IT would' ,then that is why i chose to put some of my ideas forward.
> Yes,its aimed at 'fulltimers' but i would of thought  ANYONE with a motorhome/campervan was to gain and should stand united,not oh i only go out on weekends or 1 week a year etc etc,EVERYONE with WHATEVER wheeled home,should try to be together,go through the issues and go forward ,together.I have learnt that,one or two ,they can booh hoo off,100 to  a 1000 strong is more of a comitment and maybe a money earner in thier eyes.As for counciltax and the like, silly observasions like that,i'm afraid will only 'split and stop' motorhoming becoming more of a group and lifestyle,there is ways round that,if you take the trouble to join or read posts on 'that site'.
> ...


 
Barnybg,

I think I might have missed your point. Are you saying this can only be done by a 1000 people or more. It only takes one person to make a phonecall or write an email or to come up with a good idea. 
When I was in the forces I was told that for every soldier on the front line there where nine other people involved. My point is that if you have a large number of people the admin is horrendous. A task I am not taking on for any amount of money, never mind for free.
My only other option would be just to give up. Not ready for that yet.

Richard


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## shawbags (Nov 15, 2010)

vwalan said:


> hi shawbags .they stay .you go.there could be time limmits . as in france to regulate the staying . the park is for motor homes . you cant have both sides of the coin. i dont have a problem with hippies or gypsies or any body .but if we set a standard thats the standard . if it says m,homes only then m,homes only . if i or others stay we could be moved off .but if its a motor home i,m in i stay. we can try to cheat a bit .but rules are rules. it does seem you have a problem with hippies . why. cheers alan.


 
I lived in Ibiza  amungst hippies for 6 months and one of them named caylash who was half mexican half english became a good friend of mine.I have no problem with them at all i'm just making a point.i do agree with the fact that rules have to be set as to control the situation and as you have now told me there is no charge to convert a van to a camper i have less of a problem with the idea.If anyone loves the idea of living of grid and away from the system i do,hippies,travelers,gypseys ect are fine as long as they abide by the law.If you look in my profile it states that i dislike the system,cheers Shawbags. (Chris).


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## shawbags (Nov 15, 2010)

John H said:


> If people are breaking the law (relating to littering, public nuisance and a whole raft of other statutes) then they can be dealt with, irrespective of whether they are in a motorhome or in a go-kart - and irrespective of whether they are hippies or not (what is your problem with hippies?).


 
No problem with hippies at all,read my answer to alan,cheers Shawbags.


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## shawbags (Nov 15, 2010)

vwalan said:


> hippies and new age travellers have the same rights as you so why would you want to move them on . if breaking some bye law or the ruling of the aire then anyone can be moved on. m,homers arent privaliged people .


 
Thats what ive been trying to say,read my posts.I reading a lot on human rights at the mo,don't get me started LOL,Shawbags.


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## shawbags (Nov 15, 2010)

vwalan said:


> i have been on an aire near biaritz and saw about 4 french vans with leccy lead going from one van to the other i asked who pays for the leccy . they then told me it was free .they winter there for months in summer move inland . of course every where can be abused . i was told just hook in if you need leccy, as it was i didnt need any . must say i look in the offical guide and only go to the free ones . if no free ones around there is lways parking in france .totally different out look to life . but in uk . we have to abide by rules etc . i think it will take many heated debates to get a good scheme going . it will almost have to be fail safe or the other people will object and refuse it. better us argue nicely amongst our selves than get the questions asked by authority . we have to have sound answers .


 
Hi alan,charge a fee ,put a time limit on the stay and put a sign up saying you can only stay if you accept that all your human rights are wavered and your van will be towed off if you brake the agreement,what do you think ?,Shawbags.


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## shawbags (Nov 15, 2010)

John H said:


> If one in three members of any group are trouble makers then two in three aren't and it is appalling that you think they should be punished for the sins of the other one. As for it being "reasonable to think that others will tolerate...." thank goodness the legal system in this country requires evidence not assumptions.


 
These days the police do what they want,we live in a police state and its getting worse. I think we are drifting away from the initial post don't you,if you are looking to fine people where aires are concered the council will exploit it to make more money as usual,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Nov 15, 2010)

shawbags said:


> These days the police do what they want,we live in a police state and its getting worse. I think we are drifting away from the initial post don't you,if you are looking to fine people where aires are concered the council will exploit it to make more money as usual,cheers Shawbags.


 
You should try living in a real police state. But while I feel your initial statement is, shall we say, just a little over the top, I certainly can accept your second point about councils exploiting any money-making opportunity.


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## shawbags (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi John h,i know where grifting from the main subject but take a look at youtube "unlawful arrest" and flick through some of the video clips,british citizens beeing arrested for taking photos or filming with video cameras,they are arresting them under the terorist act wich buy the way is not a law,see how the police handle the situations when they can't get there own way.I am not an actavist of any kind i am an every day easy going bloke but some of the things going on today are wrong,  Please excuse my spelling,and yes the council would take advantage,cheers Shawbags.


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## John H (Nov 16, 2010)

shawbags said:


> Hi John h,i know where grifting from the main subject but take a look at youtube "unlawful arrest" and flick through some of the video clips,british citizens beeing arrested for taking photos or filming with video cameras,they are arresting them under the terorist act wich buy the way is not a law,see how the police handle the situations when they can't get there own way.I am not an actavist of any kind i am an every day easy going bloke but some of the things going on today are wrong,  Please excuse my spelling,and yes the council would take advantage,cheers Shawbags.


 
Hi

Don't get me wrong - I know that the police are far from perfect and some of the things they did, for example, during the miners strike were appalling. I was trying to say that for all the faults in our system I would far rather live under it than under, for example, the Burmese one.

Two other points, though - the Terrorism Act is, by definition, a law (there  are bad laws as well as good ones!) and don't apologise for your spelling - some of the best spellers I have communicated with recently don't have the common sense of a gnat. Happy travels.


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## caspar (Nov 16, 2010)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I know that the police are far from perfect and some of the things they did, for example, during the miners strike were appalling. I was trying to say that for all the faults in our system I would far rather live under it than under, for example, the Burmese one.
> 
> Two other points, though - the Terrorism Act is, by definition, a law (there  are bad laws as well as good ones!) and don't apologise for your spelling - some of the best spellers I have communicated with recently don't have the common sense of a gnat. Happy travels.


 
Funny - I've had exactly the same experience! Strange how intelligent people can have good brains and no common sense!


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## John H (Nov 16, 2010)

caspar said:


> Funny - I've had exactly the same experience! Strange how intelligent people can have good brains and no common sense!


 
So you've met him too! Was it while you were in Australia?


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## caspar (Nov 16, 2010)

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-any-legal-eagles-out-there-7.html#post117429


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## caspar (Nov 16, 2010)

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11827-john-h.html#post117434


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## shawbags (Nov 16, 2010)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I know that the police are far from perfect and some of the things they did, for example, during the miners strike were appalling. I was trying to say that for all the faults in our system I would far rather live under it than under, for example, the Burmese one.
> 
> Two other points, though - the Terrorism Act is, by definition, a law (there  are bad laws as well as good ones!) and don't apologise for your spelling - some of the best spellers I have communicated with recently don't have the common sense of a gnat. Happy travels.


 
LOL,all the best,speak again sometime,cheers Shawbags.


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## Tbear (Nov 24, 2010)

*Update*

Just to let you all know, I have not given up yet. Had a chat with a man from the council today and there is a posible site. No where near as close to the city centre as I would have liked but a very nice spot. All posible city center sites have hight barriers  and that would involve battle with "Parking". I am waiting for a date for a meeting which will go ahead. I am not confident of success but I am fairly sure of a good hearing.

Thankyou to all that have helped and advised.

Richard


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## Tbear (Nov 30, 2010)

*Update*

Had my first meeting with the man from the council today. The spot I was looking at (52.583463,-0.40923) has been subject to a lot of antisocial behaviour. It is a lovely spot with toilets, picnic benches, no hight barrier at present, plenty of space and overlooks the river. If you want to break a journey  on the A1 or A47, it is a very good spot to stop during the day but not at night it seems. Shame that there is allways a small group of idiots ready to spoil it for the rest of us.
All may not be lost as I have been past on to Parking and the local Wildlife Trust. Both control some smashing spots and nobody has yet said no.

Richard


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 30, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Had my first meeting with the man from the council today. The spot I was looking at (52.583463,-0.40923) has been subject to a lot of antisocial behaviour. It is a lovely spot with toilets, picnic benches, no hight barrier at present, plenty of space and overlooks the river. If you want to break a journey  on the A1 or A47, it is a very good spot to stop during the day but not at night it seems. Shame that there is allways a small group of idiots ready to spoil it for the rest of us.
> All may not be lost as I have been past on to Parking and the local Wildlife Trust. Both control some smashing spots and nobody has yet said no.
> 
> Richard


 
Hi Richard

I had the same problem with a spot on the A68 between Darlington and West Auckland.  This site had been a picknic area but because of the "Anti Social" behaviour it is now barriered.  However that has not stopped the problem only made it out of bounds for legit users.  It had a toilet block that has now been totally vandalised and used for "Other" purposes according to the graffiti


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## Tbear (Nov 30, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Richard
> 
> I had the same problem with a spot on the A68 between Darlington and West Auckland.  This site had been a picknic area but because of the "Anti Social" behaviour it is now barriered.  However that has not stopped the problem only made it out of bounds for legit users.  It had a toilet block that has now been totally vandalised and used for "Other" purposes according to the graffiti


Hi John
The barrier is in the pipeline which will keep us out but the "other" folk will just arrive in cars. What can we do unless you can have 20 vans using the area for legitimate reasons all the time. I will pass your comment on to the council as it may make them rethink the barrier at least for a while.

Richard


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 30, 2010)

Tbear said:


> Hi John
> The barrier is in the pipeline which will keep us out but the "other" folk will just arrive in cars. What can we do unless you can have 20 vans using the area for legitimate reasons all the time. I will pass your comment on to the council as it may make them rethink the barrier at least for a while.
> 
> Richard


 
Hi Richard that barrier kept all cars out but didn't solve the problem of misuse.


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## Tbear (Nov 30, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Richard that barrier kept all cars out but didn't solve the problem of misuse.


 
There has got to be a way for decent law abiding people to do this without the idiots ruining it. Wonder how big the police station car park is


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## John H (Nov 30, 2010)

Tbear said:


> There has got to be a way for decent law abiding people to do this without the idiots ruining it. Wonder how big the police station car park is


 
Not such a silly idea - there has to be a reason why so many French aires are next to or near police stations!


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## Tbear (Nov 30, 2010)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Richard
> 
> I had the same problem with a spot on the A68 between Darlington and West Auckland.  This site had been a picknic area but because of the "Anti Social" behaviour it is now barriered.  However that has not stopped the problem only made it out of bounds for legit users.  It had a toilet block that has now been totally vandalised and used for "Other" purposes according to the graffiti


 John
Got an email from the council. Your comments have been passed on to the Highways Agency, so we can make the odd little difference.

Thanks John H. I am sure the French have the right idea. Don't their Police have Guns and Batons. I am sure the local campers are very well behaved

Richard


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