# Service station robbery - not an urban myth



## r4dent (Aug 2, 2013)

We've just got back from 6 weeks touring Europe and I thought is time to remind everyone about problems camping on European service stations.  I'd selected a Belgium aire for our first night, but when we arrived it was closed for refurbishment.  So I found a place just outside Dunkirk where lots of local MH's were parked up and set up there.  However, around 2000hrs I noticed that everyone was moving off and was told by one of the locals that the site was daytime only and mainly used by sea fishers.  So we moved on again.  At around 2130hrs we found ourselves on a motorway service station and decided to risk it.  Bad decision!
I woke around 0900 the next morning to find the habitation door open and all our money, around £4k, gone (we spend a lot of time in Cuba where ATMs don't exist so we have a cash mindset!). They thieves also took our tablet computers which had details of our itinerary including contact details for a friend in Hungary.  Fortunately, they didn't get our passports or credit / debit cards.  The Police suspect that we were gassed, and by the damage done inside the van we know that they had knives.  

So if you are going to Europe:-
- don't use motorway service areas (especially on the first night)

- don't take any more cash than you can afford to loss (Our insurance limits cash to £300)
- check out your alarm specification, I didn't even know we had a "perimeter only" setting which allows us to walk round the MH but sounds if a door / locker is openned.

Apart from that we had great time other than
   - £200 of damage to my motorbike, a German backed his Motorhome into it and drove off

   - the hailstorm in France that means the Motorhome need a new roof, some vehicles from the site are being written off.


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## jenks (Aug 2, 2013)

I have family that were done over in Italy less than two weeks ago... in a motorway service station, very well lit, they asked at the shop if they had CCTV they were very friendly and confirmed they did spoke excellent English. Lots of flood lighting in the carpark, so they parked up next to the trucks in view of CCTV, under flood lights and everyone went to sleep feeling that they were in the best situation after a very long tiring drive (blowout on motorway).

1 Adult on the bunk above front seats head about 10 inches from the drivers door, then another adult on the pull out sofa behind the drivers seat with head about 6 inches from the door, two adults asleep in the bedroom. Theives tried to remove window seals and failed, so they picked the lock on the drivers door and got in, without waking any of the adults they took a pair of trousers from the passenger seat. No one knew anything until the trousers were missing when getting dressed in the morning. Cards and money from wallet and a mobile phone stolen.

They went into the shop and asked to see CCTV knowing it would have picked up something and suddenly the same night staff can't speak a word of English.

I suggested they have a "grey water leakage" in the forecourt, but they had already moved on ASAP.


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## runnach (Aug 2, 2013)

New poster
Silly amount of cashj
The style the alleged story is told

Forgive my sceptism. And gassed

Channa


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## r4dent (Aug 2, 2013)

channa said:


> New poster
> Silly amount of cashj
> The style the alleged story is told
> 
> ...



Channa, 

This is not an "alleged story". It is true and was intended to remind others not to make the same mistakes.
Sorry you don't like my writing style.  I must admit that I don't like being called a liar by someone who knows nothing about either the event or me!

Yep, silly amount of cash but like I say we spend a lot of time in Cuba (living with Cubans, not in tourist hotels) and ATMs just don't exist and Credit cards are either not accepted or attract a 10-20% surcharge so we have a cash mindset.

"Gassing" is the suggestion of the local Police, they say this is the usual MO for this type of robbery.

By all means ignore this warning.  Please camp on motorway service areas as often as you like, I hope you are luckier than we were.


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## Gemani2 (Aug 2, 2013)

As the police say you were gassed, how / where was the gas put into the van ? Only curios as have dealt with this type of thing on a few occasions in my work in travel insurance claims


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## dave and mary (Aug 2, 2013)

r4dent said:


> We've just got back from 6 weeks touring Europe and I thought is time to remind everyone about problems camping on European service stations.  I'd selected a Belgium aire for our first night, but when we arrived it was closed for refurbishment.  So I found a place just outside Dunkirk where lots of local MH's were parked up and set up there.  However, around 2000hrs I noticed that everyone was moving off and was told by one of the locals that the site was daytime only and mainly used by sea fishers.  So we moved on again.  At around 2130hrs we found ourselves on a motorway service station and decided to risk it.  Bad decision!
> I woke around 0900 the next morning to find the habitation door open and all our money, around £4k, gone (we spend a lot of time in Cuba where ATMs don't exist so we have a cash mindset!). They thieves also took our tablet computers which had details of our itinerary including contact details for a friend in Hungary.  Fortunately, they didn't get our passports or credit / debit cards.  The Police suspect that we were gassed, and by the damage done inside the van we know that they had knives.
> 
> So if you are going to Europe:-
> ...



Please be prepared for a lot of non believers about your story, the so called experts say it can not happen, so a lot of people believe them, all I will say is your not alone in this sort of thing happening.      :drive:      :drive:


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## Firefox (Aug 2, 2013)

Can believe the robbery. Don't believe the gassing. Looks like the local police deal in some urban myths too!


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## sparrks (Aug 2, 2013)

What probably "knocks" out most victims is tiredness and alcohol.


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## Deleted member 25439 (Aug 2, 2013)

You seem to have had the holiday from hell.  Thanks for the warning.  We're off to Belgium soon.  Your story wont give me any sleepless nights but it will remind me of how careful we need to be.  Neither of us sleep particularly soundly when we're wild camping but it seems to be when the best laid plans go astray that people take more risks than they normally would.


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## Tbear (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi R4dent,

Yes I am another gassing sceptic but I am one who is happy to be proved wrong. May I ask what symptoms you suffered when you awoke the next morning and did you notice any strange smells. Did you have a funny taste in your mouth. Did the Police remind you that you should not drive for 48hrs at least after such an event.

Richard


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## Tony Lee (Aug 2, 2013)

You can add me to the list of gassing non-believers.

If we suddenly start to hear of people turning up dead in their motorhomes, or motorhomes exploding, then I might merely believe that some criminal has heard about the myth and believing it to be true, tried it out.

For those believers, the solution is simple - just install one of those propane alarms that are also marketed as KGD - knockout gas detectors.


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## ellisboy (Aug 2, 2013)

Don't believe the gassing tale either as for leaving 4grand all in one lump ,somewhere where it can easily be found! What a plonker,you deserve to be robbed,did you leave a note on the door? Don't wake us up ,the monies on the table! :lol-049:


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## Flyboy (Aug 2, 2013)

Next time leave a candle burning you're know if it was a gassing or not


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## vindiboy (Aug 2, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> Next time leave a candle burning you're know if it was a gassing or not



And remember to set the Alarm, you know that thing that  makes one hell of a noise  and wakes everyone up when a door on the van is opened.:scared:


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## shortcircuit (Aug 2, 2013)

Well I will give the OP some credit for coming on here and giving a warning about how not to behave as not many would  hold their hands up.  

Unfortunately there are many who still believe in gassing even against medical evidence and  the shear logistics of getting a tanker full of the stuff alongside and injected into the MH without blowing all and sundry to smithereens on the chance of finding a swag, which in this case was £4000, silly man :lol-053:


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## ellisboy (Aug 2, 2013)

May be the Eastern European kiddy that crawled into the van and nicked his 4grand is a part time anesthetist in the school holidays !


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## Tbear (Aug 2, 2013)

We are turning into a bit of an unfriendly bunch. I see no reason to doubt the OP was genuine in his beliefs. It was also very good of him to hold up his hand to something that must have been a bit embarrassing for him and his motives are altruistic. I failed to give a guy the benefit of the doubt (as did others) the other day and we had mass hysteria and a closed thread.

Chill out people eh

Richard


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## iveco4x4 (Aug 2, 2013)

OK its time you met Cyril

He's a usefull bloke to have around

Wheres your passport - Ah Cyrils got it , need a bit of money, ah cyrils got it

Cyril is a safe - bolted through the floor of the vehicle inside a cupboard with a pile of stuff on top

But you never call Cyril a safe, Just call it Cyril and no one will ever know.........

Rich

PS I can believe the robbery although carrying 4k in cash in europe is crazy , but not the gas bit, now being totally knackered and sleeping soundly I can believe. People wonder why my truck has grills over the windows.


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## geebus (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm sure the OP is genuine in his beliefs, but as with others I'm sceptical of the 'gas' claim.

To start with, if anything, a motorhome may be less susceptible to a gas attack than say a family home - as motorhomes tend to have special precautions against gas specifically!

I've seen plenty of people that have had their tents burgled while they are sleeping in them.
A few the thief has been caught in the act and scampered, many they haven't.
If they can do it in the confines of a tent, then a motorhome certainly doesn't seem unlikely.


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## oldish hippy (Aug 2, 2013)

just cut hole in floor and put a cyril in that and just make sure when you visit cyril that you draw curtains


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## n brown (Aug 2, 2013)

was his fridge alight ?


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## theredman (Aug 2, 2013)

Having been the victim of a service station theft I can fully sympathise with the OP. my ordeal took place at a service station in France. I had parked for a few hours rest after driving for 10 hours and travelling 13 hours in total. I also had a substantial amount of cash stolen, I won't post how much on here to be ridiculed  by others. The French police also suggested to me that we may have been the victims of a gas attack however, I never believed this. I rather believe that after such a long drive and ferry crossing we where absolutely shattered. I even remember the vehicle drawing alongside our van and hearing young voices (kids) and thinking they where up late, normally I would have investigated or at least moved on but being so tired I turned over and slept. We were in a fixed bed at the back of the van they entered through the front passenger door and thankfully only took our money leaving credit cards and passports. I dread to think of the outcome if I had awoken to find someone in the van in the early hours. I found the French police less than sympathetic towards our plight and very quick to pass it off as a gas attack , in their view a victimless crime. I awoke with no side effects, bright eyed and bushy tailed only to be brought down to earth with a bump.


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## Deleted member 26362 (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm not going to comment about the gassing bit, but some scoffed on this forum when I told of the security measures I've fitted to my van before going on my 6 month Europe trip.  These include: deadlocks to the cab doors, fold-over handle to habitation door, small screech alarms to all windows and roof hatch, sliding dead locks to garage doors, quick release bolts to inside habitation door for when I'm inside.  I also have 2 safes, I easy access for a little cash and one that requires me to empty half the van and virtually stand on my head to access for the things I don't need often but can't afford to lose.  My breakdown insurance cost me an extra £5 to cover the loss of keys and replacement locks if necessary.  

I totally agree its well over the top, the vehicle has a Sigma alarm designed for a Motorhome with Perimeter arming so I can arm it when I'm inside. I also have a carbon monoxide alarm that will go off if I break wind lol.

I'm not a scaredy cat, I'm ex army, but it's bloody inconvenient if these scrotes decide to help themselves to your gear.  I believe the visual deterrent is enough to make them move onto easier targets but accept that if someone wants to get in they will.  They would have to be pretty stupid to hang around with alarms going off and any small child put in to open a door from the inside would have to get out  the same way as he got in if I was not in the van or face me if I was.

I too have put myself in the firing line for insulting comments but I invested too much in my van, my tools and my goodies that I like to carry with me to make it easy to to separate me from them.  If you don't have any visible security best not park next to me.

Daiboy


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## scampa (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm also a non-believer in "gassing", but I'd like to offer my sympathy to the OP for his ordeal, and my thanks for the reminder and warning about getting too complacent with security issues.



geebus said:


> I've seen plenty of people that have had their tents burgled while they are sleeping in them.
> A few the thief has been caught in the act and *scampered*, many they haven't.



Please check the facts before making any wild accusations about me. In any case, I have reliable alibis for each of those occasions!  :ninja:

Maybe you meant to say "scarpered"?? :idea-007:

"Scampered" indeed!..... I'll be getting accused of "burglary within tent" next!!


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## 666jw (Aug 3, 2013)

channa said:


> New poster
> Silly amount of cashj
> The style the alleged story is told
> 
> ...



Give it a rest channa and co , it seems like no ones safe these days ( and that's on this forum )


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## David & Ann (Aug 3, 2013)

Diaboy's post (These include: deadlocks to the cab doors, fold-over handle to habitation door, small screech alarms to all windows and roof hatch, sliding dead locks to garage doors, quick release bolts to inside habitation door for when I'm inside.)

I have much the same built in as Diaboy regards security. "Prevention is better as cure" was my thoughts at the time of putting in the safety measures I deemed as necessary. It serves my purpose and gives me the feeling of some sort of safety. Regards Gassing, although it may not be true but reading the op's post, it was the Police who told him it was so, the gentleman took it that was what happened and relayed his story to us folks. I say, each one to his/her own in posting a situation. This post is in my humble opinion. ☺☺


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## Flowerpower (Aug 3, 2013)

Sounds horrendous! :scared:
If they had knives etc probably best you didn't wake up (no matter what the cause of you not waking was)... It sucks you lost the money, but life is worth far more.


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## tiderus (Aug 3, 2013)

Greeting all, My ex business partner and his family, always go through France to spain each year. 

Three years ago they were also robbed, well to be fare they caught them in the act in their van, (Left the door unlocked)

They soon vanished, and to chase them with nothing on is a bit much in the middle of the night.

The noise woke others up, only to find six in total had been robbed.

They went to wake their daughter who was unconcious and her husband.

The police were called and they said they were gassed especially as the both had stinking headaches.

Whilst I fully believe their vertion having know how straight the are.   

Being an engineer by trade, the answer could be this simple?

Tie the two front doors across with a strong rope or cable.

Set up a loaded crossbow on a tripod oppersit the side door.

With a string attached, with a bit of slack to the trigger.

And Iv'e no dought the shouting will wake up even the heaviest sleepers of us up?

Acts like this by parasites stealing the hard earned money off us usually older people, makes my blood boil.

And yes I would like to see flogging etc bought back.

If they were to risk having their hand chopped off, it sure would deter me !!!

And after the second time, no more problems with them thieving?

On A quieter note, now iv'e probably upset a few do gooders!

Why not fit one of those alarms that pick up movement up to 5 meters away.

Iv'e got one after me honda genny was nicked. Also a lock which also is an alarm.

My friend Alan, also had his van stolen.

He told his family it would be around the corner, which it was with both doors open. 

His two german shepards were asleep in the back at the time.

Sorry if Iv'e upset a few, but I believe the do gooders are still living in the past.

After Rob's post this week, the easy targets seem to be the norm.

Probably good defence lawyers and paperwork is why???

And what's all this community service crap. Almost makes it worthwile.

I'll shut the door behind me.

Rgd's Graham.


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Graham,

If your friends woke up at home with a headache I don't think being gassed would be your diagnosis:lol-053:

I do have to agree with you about the sort of people committing these crimes and what should be done about them. If somebody wakes up and catches them, then gives them a smack in the face with a Rounders bat. They should be given a medal and no fear of being prosecuted. 

Richard


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## dave and mary (Aug 3, 2013)

We can send messages around the world without wires, put a man on the moon, travel faster than sound, but we can not put a person to sleep in a motor home ? ? but one thing we can not do is sharpen a knife on a bar of soap, now that I do believe.


     :drive:      :drive:


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## NomadicBoo (Aug 3, 2013)

Daiboy said:


> I'm not going to comment about the gassing bit, but some scoffed on this forum when I told of the security measures I've fitted to my van before going on my 6 month Europe trip.  These include: deadlocks to the cab doors, fold-over handle to habitation door, small screech alarms to all windows and roof hatch, sliding dead locks to garage doors, quick release bolts to inside habitation door for when I'm inside.  I also have 2 safes, I easy access for a little cash and one that requires me to empty half the van and virtually stand on my head to access for the things I don't need often but can't afford to lose.  My breakdown insurance cost me an extra £5 to cover the loss of keys and replacement locks if necessary.
> 
> I totally agree its well over the top, the vehicle has a Sigma alarm designed for a Motorhome with Perimeter arming so I can arm it when I'm inside. I also have a carbon monoxide alarm that will go off if I break wind lol.
> 
> ...



Daiboy, as someone who is just about to head off to Europe and has zero security (other than a Jack Russell and a wife you really don't want to wake when sleeping) I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about your set up.

Can you link relevant exterior alarm systems or what you have currently? Our van is tiny so more interested in just getting a heads up that someone is approaching when we are wilding/remote.

Thanks,

James


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> We can send messages around the world without wires, put a man on the moon, travel faster than sound, but we can not put a person to sleep in a motor home ? ? but one thing we can not do is sharpen a knife on a bar of soap, now that I do believe.
> 
> 
> :drive:      :drive:



If you where to take one of those old, crude bricks of brown soap and freeze it hard enough and the knife was made of cheap metal. Then I could believe that you could hone it a little.  However I cannot imagine how you can anaesthetise someone in a van from the outside, without leaving any evidence or it costing a fortune.

Richard


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## n brown (Aug 3, 2013)

my secret but effective robbery deterrent is to look like the van least worth robbing. the wealthier you look the tastier you are.  and don't rely on leaving a dog in your van for security as some do,cs gas soon sorts them out


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## dave and mary (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> If you where to take one of those old, crude bricks of brown soap and freeze it hard enough and the knife was made of cheap metal. Then I could believe that you could hone it a little.  However I cannot imagine how you can anaesthetise someone in a van from the outside, without leaving any evidence or it costing a fortune.
> 
> Richard



Would be good to try the soap thing, on most m/h you can put a small pipe between the window and frame, also there are air vents at various points on the van so getting the gas in is problem at all. The thing is what gas could be used ?

:drive:        :drive:


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## Robmac (Aug 3, 2013)

n brown said:


> my secret but effective robbery deterrent is to look like the van least worth robbing..............



I feel safe now!


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## CooP (Aug 3, 2013)

I have lived in South Africa for many years. Over here being robbed is almost a way of life so perhaps we are more aware of precautions than the average complacent "first-worlder". But it seems to me that leaving such a large amount of money lying around to be found is rather careless in any country. Just don't do it! Thanks to the original poster for the warnings but I think that a few simple and cheap precautions can prevent most losses of this nature. If I may be indulged:

Don't keep all of your money in one place, spread it in smaller batches around the motorhome/caravan. Hide it from plain sight in places that may not seem obvious. A thief will often find a stash and assume that it's the only one, leaving the rest untouched. Do this when carrying money on your person as well, keep a pouch around your neck for the bulk of it, or a money belt or even stuff it in a sock or bra. Keep the minimum in your wallet/purse and don't "flash the cash", don't show others how much more you have on you when paying for things. A few hundreds pounds may not seem like a lot to you but might be a tempting fortune to others. Keep a wallet with a couple of pounds and some expired credit cards in a less-hidden place, a thief may grab it and leave without looking further. Keep laptops, cellphones, iPads and other valuable gadgets out of sight when you are sleeping, under the bed is a great place.
A hidden safe seems so obvious that I'm surprised that everyone doesn't have one, two even better. Naming it Cyril is a clever idea too. My handgun (legal over here) is named Fred for the same reasons.
Deadbolts on the doors cost practically nothing but make breaking in very difficult to do quietly. Ditto for loud door alarms. Some people put their trust in dogs, they might be a deterrent to a few thieves but I doubt it. I'm even told that a dog bowl filled with water might act as a deterrent, even if you don't actually have a dog. Over here we have a major problem with malicious poisoning of pets which is both traumatic and also renders the dog useless as an alarm system. My own dogs would probably sleep through an earthquake :lol-061:
I think that criminal attacks by gassing are extremely unlikely, if not impossible. I know of no local reports of this occurring here. Gas detectors seem like an obvious addition anyway, if only for detection of dangerous gas leaks related to cooking, heating etc. Good ventilation in your home on wheels should make any fear of gassing negligible.
Some people here use trap guns, bows and booby traps designed to wound and disable. _They are illegal_ here and probably in most countries. They usually end up maiming the home owner, his family or an innocent person. I don't recommend them.

Sorry I've rambled a bit. Don't be too complacent, take a few simple and cheap precautions but don't get paranoid either


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## fairytooth (Aug 3, 2013)

theredman said:


> Having been the victim of a service station theft I can fully sympathise with the OP. my ordeal took place at a service station in France. I had parked for a few hours rest after driving for 10 hours and travelling 13 hours in total. I also had a substantial amount of cash stolen, I won't post how much on here to be ridiculed  by others. The French police also suggested to me that we may have been the victims of a gas attack however, I never believed this. I rather believe that after such a long drive and ferry crossing we where absolutely shattered. I even remember the vehicle drawing alongside our van and hearing young voices (kids) and thinking they where up late, normally I would have investigated or at least moved on but being so tired I turned over and slept. We were in a fixed bed at the back of the van they entered through the front passenger door and thankfully only took our money leaving credit cards and passports. I dread to think of the outcome if I had awoken to find someone in the van in the early hours. I found the French police less than sympathetic towards our plight and very quick to pass it off as a gas attack , in their view a victimless crime. I awoke with no side effects, bright eyed and bushy tailed only to be brought down to earth with a bump.



The Stages of Training | The Royal College of Anaesthetists

Given the years of training for doctors to ensure they don't accidentally kill someone by gassing, I find it remarkable that some oik could turn up in the middle of the night, squirt some noxious gas into your van, just the right amount not to kill you mind, and then rob you blind without ever being caught by the cops.  Or am I just a cynic?  Or do we have a strain of rogue anaesthetists on the loose. :rolleyes2:


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## Deleted member 26362 (Aug 3, 2013)

NomadicBoo said:


> Daiboy, as someone who is just about to head off to Europe and has zero security (other than a Jack Russell and a wife you really don't want to wake when sleeping) I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about your set up.
> 
> Can you link relevant exterior alarm systems or what you have currently? Our van is tiny so more interested in just getting a heads up that someone is approaching when we are wilding/remote.
> 
> ...



Hi James, I may have used the wrong name for the type of alarm.  Mine allows me to set the alarm for the doors etc whilst I'm in the van (disabling the movement sensors inside the van).  However my son has an alarm on his car that warns people they are too close and to back away but it's APITA so he never bothers to set it.

Good luck with your Europe trip, I'm setting off in about 5 weeks.

Dai


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## Robmac (Aug 3, 2013)

Service station robbery not a myth? I'll say! 

£1.53 per litre of diesel on the M11 near Stanstead the other day!


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> Would be good to try the soap thing, on most m/h you can put a small pipe between the window and frame, also there are air vents at various points on the van so getting the gas in is problem at all. The thing is what gas could be used ?
> 
> :drive:        :drive:



The gas most commonly used to gas to send people off to sleep is Sevoflurane which costs about £85 a 250ml bottle if you can get hold of it. You need to maintain an 8% concentration to get them to sleep and then drop it to 2% to keep them asleep. The kit we use to do this costs about £30 000. It takes an Anaesthetist and a qualified assistant to do this safely. One of the common side effects is you stop breathing, another is that your airway closes off. You think you can do it by wafting something next to a vent.:lol-049:


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## fairytooth (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> The gas most commonly used to gas to send people off to sleep is Sevoflurane which costs about £85 a 250ml bottle if you can get hold of it. You need to maintain an 8% concentration to get them to sleep and then drop it to 2% to keep them asleep. The kit we use to do this costs about £30 000. It takes an Anaesthetist and a qualified assistant to do this safely. One of the common side effects is you stop breathing, another is that your airway closes off. You think you can do it by wafting something next to a vent.:lol-049:



You realise that with all this specialist knowledge you have become the prime suspect here ..........:lol-061:


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

fairytooth said:


> You realise that with all this specialist knowledge you have become the prime suspect here ..........:lol-061:



And I'm off to France for 3 weeks next weekend


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## Robmac (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> The gas most commonly used to gas to send people off to sleep is Sevoflurane which costs about £85 a 250ml bottle if you can get hold of it. You need to maintain an 8% concentration to get them to sleep and then drop it to 2% to keep them asleep. The kit we use to do this costs about £30 000. It takes an Anaesthetist and a qualified assistant to do this safely. One of the common side effects is you stop breathing, another is that your airway closes off. You think you can do it by wafting something next to a vent.:lol-049:




I think you're wrong Richard. When I watched batman as a kid, the Penguin wafted his umbrella under Batman's nose and a whisp of gas came out and Batman dropped unconscious in 2 seconds flat!


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

Robmac said:


> I think you're wrong Richard. When I watched batman as a kid, the Penguin wafted his umbrella under Batman's nose and a whisp of gas came out and Batman dropped unconscious in 2 seconds flat!



OK That's it! I'm off to stick my head in the oven

Damn! Its electric

Richard


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## John H (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> The gas most commonly used to gas to send people off to sleep is Sevoflurane which costs about £85 a 250ml bottle if you can get hold of it. You need to maintain an 8% concentration to get them to sleep and then drop it to 2% to keep them asleep. The kit we use to do this costs about £30 000. It takes an Anaesthetist and a qualified assistant to do this safely. One of the common side effects is you stop breathing, another is that your airway closes off. You think you can do it by wafting something next to a vent.:lol-049:



That's it - problem solved. They're looking for the wrong people for all these robberies - arrest every anaesthetist you can find and we'll all be able to sleep in peace! :lol-061:


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

John H said:


> That's it - problem solved. They're looking for the wrong people for all these robberies - arrest every anaesthetist you can find and we'll all be able to sleep in peace! :lol-061:



Don't forget their assistants. I could do with Sky TV, 3 meals a day and a nice rest for a while. All for free as well:lol-061:

Richard


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## dave and mary (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> The gas most commonly used to gas to send people off to sleep is Sevoflurane which costs about £85 a 250ml bottle if you can get hold of it. You need to maintain an 8% concentration to get them to sleep and then drop it to 2% to keep them asleep. The kit we use to do this costs about £30 000. It takes an Anaesthetist and a qualified assistant to do this safely. One of the common side effects is you stop breathing, another is that your airway closes off. You think you can do it by wafting something next to a vent.:lol-049:



As we have someone who knows about this subject can I just ask if this  is possible,,     You and your other half are asleep, someone forces the lock on the van, this is very easy to do without waking you, they get in and then they put a substance over you nose to keep you asleep. This would make you think you were gassed or the police to say you were gassed. Alarms would not be a problem if they were professionals. This way of doing it would seem far easer. and could answer a few of the questions regarding this subject, as it seems to raise its head ever now and again.


                 :drive:          :drive:


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## sparrks (Aug 3, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> As we have someone who knows about this subject can I just ask if this  is possible,,     You and your other half are asleep, someone forces the lock on the van, this is very easy to do without waking you, they get in and then they put a substance over you nose to keep you asleep. This would make you think you were gassed or the police to say you were gassed. Alarms would not be a problem if they were professionals. This way of doing it would seem far easer. and could answer a few of the questions regarding this subject, as it seems to raise its head ever now and again.
> 
> 
> :drive:          :drive:



That is far more plausable than having gas pumped in through the vents.


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## n brown (Aug 3, 2013)

I really wanted to remark on that last word,but good taste prevents me doing so


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## n brown (Aug 3, 2013)

one more possibility to help you sleep ! Google


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> As we have someone who knows about this subject can I just ask if this  is possible,,     You and your other half are asleep, someone forces the lock on the van, this is very easy to do without waking you, they get in and then they put a substance over you nose to keep you asleep. This would make you think you were gassed or the police to say you were gassed. Alarms would not be a problem if they were professionals. This way of doing it would seem far easer. and could answer a few of the questions regarding this subject, as it seems to raise its head ever now and again.
> 
> 
> :drive:          :drive:



Please try to stop watching cheap American movies.

Most of these type of gases Stink so it would be like giving you smelling salts.

If you really want to worry about something. Try sunburn or dysentery or exploding tyres. You are not going to be gassed in your sleep unless you really pee off the Russian Special Forces.

Richard


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

n brown said:


> one more possibility to help you sleep ! Google



N Brown

Behave your self:lol-061: Please

Richard


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## runnach (Aug 3, 2013)

Tbear said:


> Please try to stop watching cheap American movies.
> 
> Most of these type of gases Stink so it would be like giving you smelling salts.
> 
> ...



Richard you behave yourself, you know the special alpha team of the spetnatz are prevalent training ground, french autoroutes.

Whatever happened to chloroform?

I agree with you earlier and I am only a humble LPG gas engineer. The ventilation built into a coachbuilt van at least would make gassing difficult.

What I find interesting is in all these myths of gassing no-one has shared the consequent results of a blood test.. Perhaps because its all a myth? 

As you are aware the phlebotomy guys tend to be on the money in respect of intoxicants or other substances that affect ceberal function.

All these gassing stories surely by now by blood test we would have evidence of the gas used to incapacitate.

Channa


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

channa said:


> Richard you behave yourself, you know the special alpha team of the spetnatz are prevalent training ground, french autoroutes.
> 
> Whatever happened to chloroform?
> 
> ...



Hi Channa,

You don't need a blood test. Ether and chloroform (I'm going to kill N Brown) both stink to high heaven. It would take a week to shift the stench out of the van. You would not want to stay in it for several days at least. We did one Ether anaesthetic in Germany and it stank the whole department out for days. That's with a theatre ventilation system trying to shift it.

Richard


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## Fazerloz (Aug 3, 2013)

I quite like the smell of Easy Start. :fun:


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## Tbear (Aug 3, 2013)

Hi Fazerloz

It is possible to self gas - Its called solvent abuse and you have just confessed to it

Richard


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## Fazerloz (Aug 3, 2013)

See it is possible to be gassed in a MH. :danger:


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## shortcircuit (Aug 3, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> Please be prepared for a lot of non believers about your story, the so called experts say it can not happen, so a lot of people believe them, all I will say is your not alone in this sort of thing happening.      :drive:      :drive:



Any opinion on previous postings from your experience?


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## lebesset (Aug 3, 2013)

the gassing bit may no more than a myth , but the dangers of overnighting on motorways are real 
it got so bad on motorways in southern france that 2 years ago the gendarmerie had a purge , and arrested over 50 thieves in a 24 hour period

last year the gendarmerie made a number of arrests of thieves robbing people by imitating gendarmes !!!


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## Fazerloz (Aug 3, 2013)

Easy Start
 DIETHYL ETHER 10-30% 
Isohexane 10-30% 
Propane 10-30% 
DI-ISOPROPYL ETHER 10-30% 
ACETONE 5-10% 
PYRIDINE < 1%
Just looks like all sleepy stuff to me .:sleep-027::sleep-027:


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## n brown (Aug 3, 2013)

oh well,better mention the armed hold up when you stop at traffic lights trick.you stop,door opens,guy with a gun gets in, you all go somewhere quiet and ownership of various goods get transferred. very popular in places like Marseilles and Avignon,and Seville. heard a lot of these stories.could be true- more credible than gassing to me !


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## dave and mary (Aug 3, 2013)

shortcircuit said:


> Any opinion on previous postings from your experience?




I am only trying to get a sensible answer to something that is quite an issue with a lot of people, and yes us included we were robber and the police called it being gassed, I do have other ideas, but we were put to sleep some how and robed, now all the stupid things that are being said on there are not helping any one to find out how you can be robbed in the night and a robber can got on your bed to steal stuff out of the cupboard over your head.  So lets forget pumping gas into a m/h, and lets forget all the stupid remarks, and try and think of a sensible answer. There are now a lot of people who have been robed in the night and can not explain it.  They can not all have been drinking, driving all day, or any of the other things that have been suggested.

I did put a suggestion on a few posts back but very little response to it. I do respectfully ask if you do not have a sensible answer/question to contribute to this topic then do not bother to say any thing as it is a very worrying thing to the people concerned.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 3, 2013)

People are robbed in their bedrooms in houses every night with no gasses or anyting else involved just people soundly asleep. No mystery. Just robbers with a bit of nerve . Dont forget if they are in and you start to awaken they can be on their toes before you realise whats happening and they know this. Put this subjec to bed as well . night night. :sleep-027:


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## hextal (Aug 3, 2013)

Just out of curiosity (I can't do it in the van as it's not yet finished), but can you wait until your partner is asleep, get out of the van, then get back in and open/close doors etc to see if they wake up?

I just wonder if it's not as straight forward as the robbers being really good at what they do (that's really not meant to be a compliment to them by the way), ie:- getting in and out really really quietly.

I know everyone sleeps differently but maybe they have worked out from experience when the best average time of night is (i'm guessing when people are in their deepest sleep stage) to do it, and are just really quiet.  Or have a spotter, a stopwatch and a knowledge of average sleep patterns.

Perhaps they may even have a spotter to see who is drinking alcohol such that they may be more flat-out than others.

You can pick up IR monocles/goggles very cheap these days (and nick them for free) - maybe that's another tool to help them move quietly/quickly.

I imagine that by and large there are only so many 'unique' places to hide valuables and that an experienced motorhome thief will know most of these.

I just think that maybe many of these cases are really just that simple, someone broke in, nicked the stuff then left, and did it so quietly that nobody was woken.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 4, 2013)

A lot of people snore and usually the partner can sleep through the snoring so in they go, and now i will get but i dont snore, just one indicator of its safe to go in. A light knock on the door no answer in they go. there are loads of waysf or them to tell . Remember this is how they make there living they are good at what they do . Just take a bit of care and:have fun:


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## ashbyspannerman (Aug 4, 2013)

I think there is a large element of  bravado here, 'no one could get in my van without my knowing', the scumbags that do this know people arent on the whole as vigilant as they think they are. In our village we had a three day folk festival, this ran for three years, on the third year the campers were turned over, big bruiser HA type bikers were robbed in their tents as they slept, one even had his wallet removed from his jeans pocket as he slept! i think blaming these thefts on gassing is a way of making up for the fact you have been a victim of these scum, i have been a victim of theft, it left me feeling emasculated, i'd have loved to caught them in the act, but because i didnt i wanted to blame everyone but myself for what happened.

the clincher over the gassing story is that there have been NO reported deaths, in the next village to me there is a beautiful house, way out of my range, the owner is a world renowned peadiatric anaesthetist, he earns more per year than i will over my working life, his skill is knowing how to anaethetise the most delicate amongst us, and make sure they wake up afterwards! But of course the criminal lowlives out there are so much better qualified!!!!

On another thread on here, various posters have called others irresponsible for running with their fridges on gas, the potential for disaster when in a filling station with the pilot light burning is nothing compared to being parked with your gas fridge running, while enough easy start is sprayed into your van to knock you out!!!!!!


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## dave and mary (Aug 4, 2013)

Just a couple of things before this topic is put to bed again for a while, we on this forum are a very tiny percentage of the m/h homes traveling around Europe, so if a few of us have been robbed at night, and can not get a good explanation for how it happened, what is the total number of unexplained night robbery's.

I do wonder if the word gassing, is something that the police use for this type of crime as they can not explain it, and we have jumped to the conclusion that our vans are being filled with gas literally.

What could be happening, is that your van is being watched, they wait a while to be sure you are asleep, they then force the lock may be by using a passing lorry or car to help with any noise they may make. Now the thing is how do they keep us asleep, do they come in and put something over our face and nose, to keep us asleep long enough for them to search,  there is no drought that some how you are kept asleep for them to be able to climb on the bed to get to cupboard and go under the mattress to see if you have hidden stuff there. Is this possible ? if it is maybe this is were the completely wrong term gassing comes in and gets people so excited. We and other have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and had it happen to us you may be the next victim who knows. I think we should forget the word gassing and refer to the crime as unexplained night robbery. And remember they are professionals it is there job.


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## mark61 (Aug 4, 2013)

I wonder if any thieves have ever fallen a sleep on the job.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 4, 2013)

Ref to Easy Start just a bit of fun. Answer to how do they keep you asleep they dont you are just asleep.


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## sparrks (Aug 4, 2013)

Does anyone know if insurance companies have paid out to "victims of gassing"? Just wondering if they believe it.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 4, 2013)

Fazerloz said:


> Ref to Easy Start just a bit of fun. Answer to how do they keep you asleep they dont you are just asleep.



Oh so true!

Had police helicopter hovering 40-50 feet above our house for ages once chasing some crims in the night.

The entire street was out looking - except me, dead to the world! :lol-061:

Even our Neil, who's deaf, was woken up by it


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## Robmac (Aug 4, 2013)

How many thousands of pounds does it take to catch car thieves with a helicopter only for the police/courts to let them off with a warning?


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## Fazerloz (Aug 4, 2013)

Not much for this one. 
Bungling police force grounds helicopter and drafts in extra air cover after losing a LOG BOOK | Mail Online


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## Tony Lee (Aug 4, 2013)

> while enough easy start is sprayed into your van to knock you out!!!!!!



Yes, I know you were kidding, but I did find out from experience that it doesn't work. In the US we picked up a couple of pack rats in our travels and they set up home on top of the engine below our bed. Didn't mind them moving in but in their rush to get the family started their nocturnal exploits kept us awake so I needed them out. Could often see them but never catch them so I figured the "Start Ya Barstard" (we Australians call it as we see it and one brand is called that) would slow them down enough to catch them. Well, a full can later and two totally saturated and choking rats still couldn't be caught, but they did finally get the idea and staggered down onto the ground and into the forest - not the slightest bit sleepy, but half drowned.


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## hextal (Aug 4, 2013)

Robmac said:


> How many thousands of pounds does it take to catch car thieves with a helicopter only for the police/courts to let them off with a warning?



Yeah - I always think there should be some element of the punishment linked to the costs accrued by the police in the apprehension of said baddies.

I've stopped myself watching those police camera action type shows in the last few weeks as I was always ranting by the program.  I always love the fact that theyll grab a guy for driving whilst banned for the umpteenth time and give him some points on his license when he gets it.  Your thinking - driving with no license or insurance is clearly not a concern to him, so how effective are points really going to be.

I think they need to invent a two-legged tag (rather than the classic one legged tag), I bet that stops em getting up to much


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## runnach (Aug 4, 2013)

r4dent said:


> Channa,
> 
> This is not an "alleged story". It is true and was intended to remind others not to make the same mistakes.
> Sorry you don't like my writing style.  I must admit that I don't like being called a liar by someone who knows nothing about either the event or me!
> ...



Firstly, and I will be truthful, I jumped to a conclusion saw two posts including this one and jumped in thinking you were trolling, I failed to see that you have been part of the site for quite a while. On that basis I offer you a full apology.

I wasnt in effect calling you a liar, I believe the robbery part, ( having lived in France Holland and Belgium for approaching three years) I am well aware of the hotspots and some of the distraction techniques employed.

But I am very sceptical re the gassing, and has this thread has progressed interesting to see the observations of someone employed in an anaesthetic role.

This has further deepened my sceptisim, and I am left with the thought that the Police, see tourists as an irritant to much paperwork, and youll be gone soon.

regards 

Channa


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## Beemer (Aug 4, 2013)

So, are you saying there is no Santa Claus? :sad:

You'll be telling me next that there is no tooth fairy...... but I know he is a member on this forum.. :banana:


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## runnach (Aug 4, 2013)

Beemer said:


> So, are you saying there is no Santa Claus? :sad:
> 
> You'll be telling me next that there is no tooth fairy...... but I know he is a member on this forum.. :banana:[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## dave and mary (Aug 5, 2013)

Must say it is amazing how a post topic can change so much from robbery to race.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Robbery is robbery and a thief is a thief. 

It's a crime, full stop, and should have no bearing on the colour or creed of the perpetrator.


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

??????

Try looking again at the Bible, the Q'ran and other holy books from Middle-Eastern-based religions. They are all the same basic book and are all full of contradictions. Some sects within ALL of those religions home in on the "stone-'em-to-death" aspects and others home in on the merciful God aspects. To accuse one religion of having built in intolerance flies in the face of reality.


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## runnach (Aug 5, 2013)

[No message]


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

The only conflict is within religion itself (all religions, not just one) - and on what are you basing the claim that the first part is blatently untrue? Are you unaware, for example, of those "Christians" who recently accused all gay people of engaging in what Leviticus would call an abomination? Very tolerant, that.


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

[No message]


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Wot's religion got to do with gettin' your motorhome robbed? fftopic:

Just sayin'


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

If I knew what that meant, I'd do it! :lol-053:


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Wot's religion got to do with gettin' your motorhome robbed? fftopic:
> 
> Just sayin'



Oh, I don't know - there are religious sects that view all property as theft, aren't there?


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

John H said:


> Oh, I don't know - there are religious sects that view all property as theft, aren't there?



Fair point 

But getting back to the topic, is there any valid data available on this gassing malarky, or is it really just an urban myth?


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## Robmac (Aug 5, 2013)

Only possibility I can see of gassing somebody would be to connect a vent to a car exhaust and pump the van full of CO. This would render somebody unconcious, but more likely kill them if overdone and the smell of the exhaust would be around for a long time afterwards.

I doubt it really happens.


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Fair point
> 
> But getting back to the topic, is there any valid data available on this gassing malarky, or is it really just an urban myth?



Tbear seems to sum it up - and he clearly knows what he is talking about. If you research the topic you will find that anaesthetists are of one mind - that it is impossible. Apart from that, it would involve an awful lot of expensive equipment and leave a lingering smell. I think we can be as sure of this as we can be of anything - it is a myth.


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## runnach (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Fair point
> 
> But getting back to the topic, is there any valid data available on this gassing malarky, or is it really just an urban myth?



Good question, for the first time ever to my knowledge, Tbear who works in the field has given a logical explanation and explained the difficulty in carrying out what I believe to be a myth.

I also find it interesting that if the police genuinely thought gassing was involved, they would refer the victims for a blood test, which would provide evidence perhaps ? never heard of that happening.

More likely, to save paperwork blame "gassing" when they are aware that the victims are transient in their patch.....easy option least line of resistance etc.

Channa


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

[No message]


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## Robmac (Aug 5, 2013)

channa said:


> Good question, for the first time ever to my knowledge, Tbear who works in the field has given a logical explanation and explained the difficulty in carrying out what I believe to be a myth..........



I presume you mean a logical answer to the myth rather than the first time ever Richard has given a logical explanation!!


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Robmac said:


> I presume you mean a logical answer to the myth rather than the first time ever Richard has given a logical explanation!!



Oooooo! Get you sir! Trousers a little tight, sir? 
We have some excellent teddy outfits. Ooo! Suits you sir! Suspenders, sir? 

:lol-061::lol-061::lol-061:


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## runnach (Aug 5, 2013)

Robmac said:


> I presume you mean a logical answer to the myth rather than the first time ever Richard has given a logical explanation!!



Exactly.


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## sean rua (Aug 5, 2013)

Just in passing,

it is still possiblefor folk to die in their sleep following CARBON MONOXIDE  poisoning in a camping van, isn't it?

I realise that the major difference is these unfortunates never wake up, whereas many of the "gassed and robbed" folk did awaken, according to what we read.

sean rua.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

I read this on another motorhome site, which indicates it's a possibility, perhaps? 

"I  have treated 2 confirmed attacks with 'anaesthetic gas' on victims  overnighting South of Lyon on the autroute. Both families concerned were  in caravans at diffeerent aires at diferent times in July. The gas  being used is ether or very similar. It has a very high level of safety  and there are unlikely to be any casualties even children ( see Bill  Ord's body count). I am old enough to have used this medically and can  vouch for this. It is very easy to obtain this gas on the continent in  both gaseous and liquid form. Very easy to pour through ventilation roof  vents ( on most continental vans this is at the sleeping end) or roof  windows. Modern anaesthetic gases could not be used in this way. I have  tested two gas alarms and found them to be very sensitive. They even  work when cooking mussels ( as in Moules and chips. 

I agree than many cases of robbery occur when people driving too far at  the begininning of their holiday get overtired and hence sleep soundly,  with their mouths open. They wake up dehydrated - insufficient fluid in  the previous 24hours, with a headache and with a sore throat and assume  that they have been gassed. Funny how it all happens South of Lyon.  Should people target reaching here in their first night since the ferry?"


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I read this on another motorhome site, which indicates it's a possibility, perhaps?
> 
> "I  have treated 2 confirmed attacks with 'anaesthetic gas' on victims  overnighting South of Lyon on the autroute. Both families concerned were  in caravans at diffeerent aires at diferent times in July. The gas  being used is ether or very similar. It has a very high level of safety  and there are unlikely to be any casualties even children ( see Bill  Ord's body count). I am old enough to have used this medically and can  vouch for this. It is very easy to obtain this gas on the continent in  both gaseous and liquid form. Very easy to pour through ventilation roof  vents ( on most continental vans this is at the sleeping end) or roof  windows. Modern anaesthetic gases could not be used in this way. I have  tested two gas alarms and found them to be very sensitive. They even  work when cooking mussels ( as in Moules and chips.
> 
> I agree than many cases of robbery occur when people driving too far at  the begininning of their holiday get overtired and hence sleep soundly,  with their mouths open. They wake up dehydrated - insufficient fluid in  the previous 24hours, with a headache and with a sore throat and assume  that they have been gassed. Funny how it all happens South of Lyon.  Should people target reaching here in their first night since the ferry?"



It seems to me that the flaw in the example you give is that there would be a very strong and distinctive smell left in the van afterwards. I think Tbear said it would linger for weeks, so that explanation doesn't work.


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## mark61 (Aug 5, 2013)

Who knows the truth, I certainly don't. All I do know, I have spent a fair few nights on these motorway service stations, they are not great stops but they serve a purpose when you have a long journey. I think only once have I been the only vehicle, other times there can be 20+ MH's overnighting. Times that by the amount of service stations and thats a hell of a lot of MH's. You'd think if gassing was so easy you'd hear about it a lot more. Regardless, I'll still be using these on future trips. I wish our service stations were so civilised.

How come these reports are nearly always in France or Belgium, why not here or Germany etc?

Feeling rough after a long drive I can certainly vouch for. Coming back from Morocco once, we overnighted near Granada, started driving about 6 AM, I walked through my front door 8 AM following morning, had a good sleep but when I woke up I felt worse then if I had been on a proper session. Perhaps I was gassed at home.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

mark61 said:


> Who knows the truth, I certainly don't. All I do know, I have spent a fair few nights on these motorway service stations, they are not great stops but they serve a purpose when you have a long journey. I think only once have I been the only vehicle, other times there can be 20+ MH's overnighting. Times that by the amount of service stations and thats a hell of a lot of MH's. You'd think if gassing was so easy you'd hear about it a lot more. Regardless, I'll still be using these on future trips. I wish our service stations were so civilised.
> 
> How come these reports are nearly always in France or Belgium, why not here or Germany etc?
> 
> Feeling rough after a long drive I can certainly vouch for. Coming back from Morocco once, we overnighted near Granada, started driving about 6 AM, I walked through my front door 8 AM following morning, had a good sleep but when I woke up I felt worse then if I had been on a proper session. *Perhaps I was gassed at home*.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Stop it Win, you're making me hungry :tongue:


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

No, we're quite adventurous up here 

Never had it, but would certainly try it.


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## n brown (Aug 5, 2013)

I too have heard they'll eat anything up there,which explains why you see so few tourists around those parts-all scared of endig up the main course in a Sawney Beanfeast !


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Aye, beware! 

The caves north of the border are deep and long and the shivs are aye very sharp :lol-061:

That runnach chap'll have ye for breakfast before you can say William Wallace


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## dave and mary (Aug 5, 2013)

[No message]


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Win, I think dave and mary are feeling, quite rightly, a bit affronted that a lot of people, including you, are pooh-poohing their experience.

They were the ones who were robbed, not you.

Whilst the jury's out on gassing, it would be nice to know if there was another logical explanation.

The theory that robberies can take place while victims remain unconscious throughout because of "deep sleep" may be applicable in some cases, but surely not every single one?!


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## dave and mary (Aug 5, 2013)

There is noe so blind as those that will not see.


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

Well, if dave and mary feel that wasn't the case, I'm not going to diss them.

Like I said, they were the ones who had the experience, not us.


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## n brown (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Win, I think dave and mary are feeling, quite rightly, a bit affronted that a lot of people, including you, are poo-pooing their experience.
> 
> They were the ones who were robbed, not you.
> 
> ...


.. sorry to be pedontic but poo pooing [tee hee ] is very different to pooh poohing !


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

n brown said:


> .. sorry to be pedontic but poo pooing [tee hee ] is very different to pooh poohing !



Bog off


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## n brown (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Bog off


  ah that sparkling,quickfire Geordie repartee !


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 5, 2013)

n brown said:


> ah that sparkling,quickfire Geordie repartee !



Would you prefer the coarser expression...?

Haddaway and s....! *

(* name of local solicitors )


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## hextal (Aug 5, 2013)

Obviously i feel for those that have been robbed, it is a horrid thing.

However, from what I've read to date the evidence for gassing doesn't actually seem to be evidence for gassing. Instead it seems more just a doubt surrounding the actual execution of the robbery.

I don't think a question mark against one theory can be used to push a different theory with no additional supporting evidence.


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## CooP (Aug 5, 2013)

It seems odd that a thief would sort through the contents of a cupboard and then take the time to pack away the unwanted items. Is it possible in at least a few of these cases that the robbery occurred while the owners were off sight-seeing or having dinner at a restaurant? And after arriving back after dark and going to bed they didn't notice anything amiss until the next morning? I'm not suggesting that this is usual but just possible in some cases.


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## Tbear (Aug 5, 2013)

I went to France and did not get Gassed, Robbed or Mugged once. How boring is that 

Richard


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## dave and mary (Aug 5, 2013)

CooP said:


> It seems odd that a thief would sort through the contents of a cupboard and then take the time to pack away the unwanted items. Is it possible in at least a few of these cases that the robbery occurred while the owners were off sight-seeing or having dinner at a restaurant? And after arriving back after dark and going to bed they didn't notice anything amiss until the next morning? I'm not suggesting that this is usual but just possible in some cases.



Yes what you say is possible but as for us.

We new nothing of the robbery until we got to the tolls and realised things had gone  like money driving licences OLD credit cards they were looking for ID stuff so the police said. We never left the van all evening, every night as others probably do we check doors windows, bags are put in cupboard under other things. I do except it is very difficult to understand, we don't, all I can say is we were taken very seriously by the police, and I don't care wether we are beloved or not but I do get fed up with people who no nothing apart from what they have read of other peoples post telling me what happened. Why stuff was all put back I can only assume that they thought it would be longer before we reported the crime and it was.


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## n brown (Aug 5, 2013)

Tbear said:


> I went to France and did not get Gassed, Robbed or Mugged once. How boring is that
> 
> Richard



you need to book really


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## Neckender (Aug 5, 2013)

Tbear said:


> I went to France and did not get Gassed, Robbed or Mugged once. How boring is that
> 
> Richard




We've just done a month in France and my wife was regularly gassed.

John.


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## bygeorgejenny (Aug 5, 2013)

*Please do not disregard the warning.*

Just after I was divorced my recently  ex husband telephone to say that he was on his way to a sailing event in Europe.    (I cant remember where because this was 7 years ago).  He sounded extremely shaken up which was out of character as he always took everything in his stride and said he really needed to talk. 

He told me he had two members of the sailing team travelling in our campervan with him.  One of them could not find their mobile but thought nothing of it as he was always losing it and it would always turn up later.  Later the other could not find his laptop or phone.  Small things were missing. This was now odd so, my ex looked for his laptop.  In order that they did not get lost in the mess that three men travelling in a 25ft  campervanspace often ended up in he had kept this and some other bits and pieces in the double bed over the drivers seat, pushed against the front wall.  The laptop was gone.  All the above equipment had been around when they went to sleep.  There was no time when at least one of them had not been in the campervan,  All had been members of the British Sailing Team for a number of years and there was no question that one of them had taken them.

He realised that a story he had heard earlier and disregarded was true, and what had happened is that they had been gassed while sleeping. While they were vulnerable someone had crawled over his body in the small space and taken his laptop.  He believed it even more when they reported it to the Police who were determined not to hear. (Bad for tourism).

The rest of the story that he had heard was that a dog in the campervan had died as a result of the gas vented into his owners van.

I am not saying this to be morbid or frighten anyone but I totally believe it.  He had no reason to make it up.  There are some not very nice people out there and we all need to be aware of the risks.   It was a year old campervan so probably misled thieves into thinking that the occupants would have lots worth stealing - my little Bedford Bambi would not lead anyone to think this - but we must always take care and lots of vehicles in one spot is very probably good pickings for a planned robbery.

I dont think we should stop doing what we want to do - Just take care.


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## John H (Aug 5, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Well, if dave and mary feel that wasn't the case, I'm not going to diss them.
> 
> Like I said, they were the ones who had the experience, not us.



Dave and Mary were robbed. I am sure we all feel sorry for them. But the chances that it was due to gassing are so small as to be insignificant. It is not being disrespectful to them to say that.


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## bygeorgejenny (Aug 5, 2013)

*Meant to say*

Sorry - forgot to say.  My ex did not drink at all (nor any other substances!).  Although he was probably tired someone would have had to have had physical contact due to the height of the roof when they crawled over him and to have been extremely confident that whatever they did he would not wake up. No matter how tired, a body crawling over him would have woken him

I am really sorry to hear you had such a dreadful trip and thank you for trying to spare others this ordeal.

Jen


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## bygeorgejenny (Aug 5, 2013)

*Ridiculed*



theredman said:


> Having been the victim of a service station theft I can fully sympathise with the OP. my ordeal took place at a service station in France. I had parked for a few hours rest after driving for 10 hours and travelling 13 hours in total. I also had a substantial amount of cash stolen, I won't post how much on here to be ridiculed  by others. The French police also suggested to me that we may have been the victims of a gas attack however, I never believed this. I rather believe that after such a long drive and ferry crossing we where absolutely shattered. I even remember the vehicle drawing alongside our van and hearing young voices (kids) and thinking they where up late, normally I would have investigated or at least moved on but being so tired I turned over and slept. We were in a fixed bed at the back of the van they entered through the front passenger door and thankfully only took our money leaving credit cards and passports. I dread to think of the outcome if I had awoken to find someone in the van in the early hours. I found the French police less than sympathetic towards our plight and very quick to pass it off as a gas attack , in their view a victimless crime. I awoke with no side effects, bright eyed and bushy tailed only to be brought down to earth with a bump.



I think it is really sad that members have learned by experience (their own or others) that other members may "ridicule" their comments on this site,   I have read some of the responses to this thread and whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion it is sad that some of us think that sarcastic and rude comments are anything other than offensive and hurtful.


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## sean rua (Aug 5, 2013)

David and Mary,

                    I certainly do* not* know what happened you, but, unlike the "experts" on here, I am prepared to believe that you were robbed.

On here, we get  a hard-core minority who, though ready to hide  behind the Law on any little matter that affects their ice-creamvan, and who often speak of hob-nobbing with the gavvers, are, at the same time, always up for portraying police officers as right diblos.

I don't know why you came on here telling of your experiences, as all they will do is try to take the pi ss. 
On the other hand, if your account had been penned by some Daily Mail reporter about a stolen caravan or the like, you would have received hundreds of pounds to aid your cause ( not!) from the generous souls.

My personal view - and unlike some on here, I have no phd in chemistry or any expertise in gases - is that the ill-effects that seem to befall so many motorhomers is down largely to the fumes from fridge, lavatory, and cooking, all in a confined space.
Add to this "driving fatigue", and the effects of different wine, air, and water, and I think the least you can hope to get away with is a splitting headache and a bad taste in the mouth.

Also, please remember that nothing bad can be said about anywhere on the European Continent, but anywhere in Great Britain has to be slagged to the limit at every opportunity.
With these considerations, you may get a better reception, imo. It could pay to have a fixation with all things "supermarket" too. Then you could have a really good chuckle about the most sombre of matters.

Don't have nightmares and keep 'em peeled! 


sean rua.


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## 666jw (Aug 5, 2013)

Tbear said:


> I went to France and did not get Gassed, Robbed or Mugged once. How boring is that
> 
> Richard



The trip or your post !!


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## ivecotrucker (Aug 5, 2013)

Those of our travelling community who are robbed surely deserve our sympathy &/or constructive comment regardless of how the crime was carried out.

It is not for the rest of us who were not present at the scene to totally dismiss "gassing" - it is theoretically possible but highly unlikely.

Firstly, ether does NOT have a wide safety tolerance as quoted in a previous post; the margin between successful anaesthesis & death is fairly small. Those of a certain age may recall how many patients used to die in the Dentist's chair many years ago when ether was the principal anaesthetic in use after 'laughing gas' was discontinued.

Successful use of an inhaled, gaseous anaesthetic, as opposed to an injectable, requires the following information:

  the weight & number of occupants
  the internal volume of the vehicle
  the internal temperature of the vehicle
  the vapour pressure of the anaesthetic within the vehicle

-- failure to accurately measure these parameters will result in death or non-aesthesis of the occupants.
This is why anaesthicians have many years training. Tony Lee hit the nail on the head - " how many campervan/caravan deaths have been reported ? ".    

I have entered our vehicle & slammed the cargo door shut (a WhizzBang as Mr Lee calls them !) without waking my wife (she was asleep at home but the girlfriend in the truck was awaken !)(only joking).

 I suggest we need to look elsewhere to explain non-awakening dogs/occupants during break-ins.


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## ivecotrucker (Aug 5, 2013)

Daiboy said:


> I'm not going to comment about the gassing bit, but some scoffed on this forum when I told of the security measures I've fitted to my van before going on my 6 month Europe trip.  These include: deadlocks to the cab doors, fold-over handle to habitation door, small screech alarms to all windows and roof hatch, sliding dead locks to garage doors, quick release bolts to inside habitation door for when I'm inside.  I also have 2 safes, I easy access for a little cash and one that requires me to empty half the van and virtually stand on my head to access for the things I don't need often but can't afford to lose.  My breakdown insurance cost me an extra £5 to cover the loss of keys and replacement locks if necessary.
> 
> I totally agree its well over the top, the vehicle has a Sigma alarm designed for a Motorhome with Perimeter arming so I can arm it when I'm inside. I also have a carbon monoxide alarm that will go off if I break wind lol.
> 
> ...



Hi Dai,

I've not been on the Forum lately (computer problems & too much travelling); sorry to hear some have scoffed at your security measures. Having seen your new vehicle H. & I think youv'e done an excellent & sensible job. Well done !!.


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## sean rua (Aug 6, 2013)

Just a minute, Sir David,

 I know that in your childish adolescent way you always like to have the last word on any matter, but was it not t*he  police officers* who *told* David and Mary that they were victims of a "gassing"?

You have told us all many times how superior everybody on the Continent is in comparison to folk in Great Britain, but now you appear to be telling us that these police officers who spoke to David and Mary are every bit as daft as the ones where you come from, Hampshire ( yeah, I know you said you were born in Blackpool and raised in London, so save yourself a rant about that  for the time being).

Btw, I take it that you are a qualified scientist yourself, so may I ask again the question I posed earlier? Is it possible for folk to die in their sleep in motorhomes from the effects of carbon monoxide?

sean rua.


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## runnach (Aug 6, 2013)

sean rua said:


> J, so may I ask again the question I posed earlier? Is it possible for folk to die in their sleep in motorhomes from the effects of carbon monoxide?
> 
> sean rua.



It certainly is Sean a colleague of one of the showman I worked for died in a caravan about 3 years ago.

The scary part of it all was the only appliance lit was a carver fire while she was asleep. They are room sealed and when the HSE inspected it, it was found to be in perfect order.

The carver vents through the floor, the theory they came up with is an animal snuggled to the vent for warmth there was snow on the ground, and the combustants found there way back into the van.

Channa


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## Monkey (Aug 6, 2013)

Win... Please remember that Shawn has the "ALL SEEING EYE" . It sits between his legs.


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## Harmergeddon (Aug 6, 2013)

I get gased everytime sleep in my motorhome. How much though depends entirely on the menu of the previous nights meal. :lol-061:

Sorry to hear about the robbery.


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## Tbear (Aug 6, 2013)

666jw said:


> The trip or your post !!



Hi 666jw,

I am guessing that you just meant to be rude but I think you made my point. This sort of thread just goes on and on. We all do feel sorry for someone who has had there holiday ruined by a thief or at least I hope most of us do. The evidence on gassing is clear to all who can read. The rest will just scare the gullible into not enjoying their holiday. Stay of the roads if you are worried about your safety. Can we please put this to bed until there is clear evidence of someone being gassed and robbed.

Richard


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## 666jw (Aug 6, 2013)

Tbear said:


> Hi 666jw,
> 
> I am guessing that you just meant to be rude but I think you made my point. This sort of thread just goes on and on. We all do feel sorry for someone who has had there holiday ruined by a thief or at least I hope most of us do. The evidence on gassing is clear to all who can read. The rest will just scare the gullible into not enjoying their holiday. Stay of the roads if you are worried about your safety. Can we please put this to bed until there is clear evidence of someone being gassed and robbed.
> 
> Richard



Hi Tbear,

 I am worried about my safety no more or less than your good self . I to have also been to France, and not been gassed, mugged or robbed. I do however sympathise with anybody unlucky enough to have experienced any of these.. We are however different in that, I didn't find my trip boring !!  You were probably making up a silly statement which the original poster and many others affected no doubt found quite rude and a little patronising. if my post also came across as short to the point and also a trifle rude, I was only simply replying in the same manner.

Jw


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## r4dent (Aug 9, 2013)

Hi, The original poster here (aka “plonker who deserves to be robbed”, “someone who is clearly rather careless” etc).  

Prior to my trip I had never met anyone whose Motorhome/ Caravan had been broken into at a service station (it was always “a friend of a cousin’s workmate ‘s uncle” or someone or a similar remoteness), and I assumed that it was an urban myth.

I don’t know if we were gassed (original “The Police suspect that we were gassed”) or not.  I do know that we were robbed and that the van suffered knife damage

I posted to share my experience with my fellow motorhomers in the hope that someone may change their routine and avoid a similar occurrence.  

Thank you to those that offered sympathy and understanding.

To those who offered abuse and insults, I hope you never reap what you sow.

On a practical level you may be interested to know that both my travel insurance and house contents have indicated that they will be paying out towards the cash stolen.  The total will be considerably less than what was stolen, but every little helps.  One way of looking at it is that nothing was taken from us, but the kids will be inheriting less than anticipated.

Another piece of good news .  The damage to the bike which a main dealer said would be £200 for parts and labour was repaired by a plastic welding company (I’d never heard of such a thing) for under a tenner.


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## sean rua (Aug 9, 2013)

Nice result to a nasty incident, r4dent!
I'm glad it worked out better than expected.

sean rua.


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## lebesset (Aug 9, 2013)

I think the thing that most people overlook is how tiring travelling is , both when driving and when a passenger ; I suspect that most people sleep much more deeply than they normally do 

have just driven north through france in the heat ; the first night was so hot that my wife decided to sleep on the sofa , and I slept as normal in the drop down double ; when I woke in the morning there she was in her normal place which is inside me at the front ; her explanation....the temperature dropped when it rained heavily ,and she got cold with no bedding ...... so she decided to join me ; unfortunately I was sleeping in the middle of the bed , so she turned me to the edge and climbed over me , covering us both with a duvet 

did I wake up , I asked ? you cannot be serious , she replied , you just kept snoring , you could have been murdered in your bed !

and we wonder why people can get in and not wake us !!!


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## hextal (Aug 9, 2013)

I slept through a fire alarm the other night after a friends wedding. To be fair i had drunk my body weight in beer though.


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## n brown (Aug 9, 2013)

just to lower the tone. I have slept in dosshouses where other unfortunates would steal the blankets from sleepers.the trick is to do it nice and steady.i watched a guy do it and it took about 20 minutes,and the victim wasn't drunk


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 10, 2013)

When did you stay at our house, mr brown?! (no quilt again this morning...!)


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## jakekelly (Aug 10, 2013)

*service station robbery ( OH MY GOD WE ARE HERE)*

WE are in the process of traveling thro france down to spain, estartit (32') used 4 aires to get to here, & absolutly no problems, i have asked other french & belgium campers about this gassing , EACH AND EVERYONE HAS SAID"I have heard about it but no one knows the person or persons involved, its always a friend of a friends brothers uncle that it happened to. if the person invoved will get in contact with me i will be in calis on the 14th august, if they can give me  visible proof of the incident(police statement for insurance claim)I will catagorically verify their claim on this web site , but there again they could do that themselves by  copying & posting the police confirmation report on here 

I want to make it clear to all, if  said incident happened they have my sincere sympathy, but france is generally safe place,& same as anywhere else ,use youre  basic common sense.I would really like to put this one in the bin as it must put a lot of people off  the experience of visting this beautiful country(s) by camper van. come on down the sun is shining  (PS.1ltr. of grants whisky 9.5euros in the super mercats):drive::camper: 

I POST THIS WITH GOOD INTENTIONS ,NOT I REPEAT NOT TO START AN ARGUMENT! :sucks:


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## r4dent (Aug 10, 2013)

jakekelly said:


> if the person invoved will get in contact with me i will be in calis on the 14th august, if they can give me  visible proof of the incident(police statement for insurance claim)I will catagorically verify their claim on this web site , but there again they could do that themselves by  copying & posting the police confirmation report on here
> 
> :



Doesn't anyone read things before they post a reply?
The incident happened in Belgium not France. 
I also thought it only happened to "a friend of a friends brothers uncle" and when it happened to me I posted it to warn others to be more careful  than I was, and not in an attempt to stop people going over.

Since you ask I've attached the Police Certificate; my statement; a photo of the damage and a photo of my van with the Police car alongside. I've hidden my personal details, I hope you can accept that.



I look forward to you "catagorically" (sic) verifying my claim and posting an abject apology forthwith!

P.S.
I won't be in calis (sic) on 14th.  But if you PM me for my address you could call in on your way home and see the damage and original documents. That should stop you saying I've photo shopped the pictures.


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## ellisboy (Aug 10, 2013)

:sleep-027:


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## jakekelly (Aug 10, 2013)

r4dent said:


> Doesn't anyone read things before they post a reply?
> The incident happened in Belgium not France.
> I also thought it only happened to "a friend of a friends brothers uncle" and when it happened to me I posted it to warn others to be more careful  than I was, and not in an attempt to stop people going over.
> 
> ...



posting abject apology ! but whats with the "sic"comment?what is that for?


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## runnach (Aug 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## mandymops (Aug 10, 2013)

*I make no claims but this was mystifying:-*

Several years ago when my then fiancé and I still lived in my homeland, Zimbabwe, I awoke one morning having overslept. I shook my fiancé awake and in something of a daze we wandered around our completely empty flat mildly irritated by the lack of fridge and therefore breakfast. We dressed in  the two pairs of painting overalls which appeared to be the only clothes we possessed. It seemed odd that we couldn't find the car keys or indeed the car but I don't recall being unduly worried or suspicious. I walked to work and it was only as I walked the strangeness of the situation began to strike me but only slightly. When I arrived at work to some raised eyebrows at my attire, I gradually told my colleagues of the situation I had found myself in and as I spoke the weirdness of the entire sorry situation struck me and it was only at that point that I realised that we had been comprehensively burgled. It was a very odd experience and the police (who were far from reliable) said that we must have been drugged in some way.  The inspection of the flat revealed the window where the thieves had cut a hole in the glass but blood tests that were carried out on us later that day revealed nothing. As far as I can remember, there was no odd smell. I have no explanation. I did not drink or take drugs. My fiancé and I both experienced the same, strange, detached lack of realisation till late morning. Just thought I'd say. Odd stuff happens.


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## mandymops (Aug 10, 2013)

*P.S.*

The previous evening we had got home from work, eaten dinner, watched telly and gone to bed so we hadn't been anywhere where drinks could have been spiked.


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## WildThingsKev (Aug 10, 2013)

> Since you ask I've attached the Police Certificate; my statement; a photo of the damage and a photo of my van with the Police car alongside. I've hidden my personal details, I hope you can accept that.



Thanks for you report R4dent, any idea how the door window was opened? Is it a vertically sliding window?


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## runnach (Aug 10, 2013)

Im not a phlebotomist, but surely if all this gassing took place the police  would request a blood test to hep convict the perpetrators when apprehended....never read or heard it being offered..

a gas if rendered unconscious , surely would leave a trace in the blood stream minute perhaps but suggest the gas that incapictates.


never heard of it happening, so no wonder why I am sceptical,,,,other than a simple dust under the carpet by the rozzers 

Channa


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## ivecotrucker (Aug 10, 2013)

mandymops said:


> Several years ago when my then fiancé and I still lived in my homeland, Zimbabwe, I awoke one morning having overslept. I shook my fiancé awake and in something of a daze we wandered around our completely empty flat mildly irritated by the lack of fridge and therefore breakfast. We dressed in  the two pairs of painting overalls which appeared to be the only clothes we possessed. It seemed odd that we couldn't find the car keys or indeed the car but I don't recall being unduly worried or suspicious. I walked to work and it was only as I walked the strangeness of the situation began to strike me but only slightly. When I arrived at work to some raised eyebrows at my attire, I gradually told my colleagues of the situation I had found myself in and as I spoke the weirdness of the entire sorry situation struck me and it was only at that point that I realised that we had been comprehensively burgled. It was a very odd experience and the police (who were far from reliable) said that we must have been drugged in some way.  The inspection of the flat revealed the window where the thieves had cut a hole in the glass but blood tests that were carried out on us later that day revealed nothing. As far as I can remember, there was no odd smell. I have no explanation. I did not drink or take drugs. My fiancé and I both experienced the same, strange, detached lack of realisation till late morning. Just thought I'd say. Odd stuff happens.



Interesting !. Evidence of an obviously altered mental state on awaking, which is what one might expect more victims of 'gassing' would experience.


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## hextal (Aug 11, 2013)

A slight tangent, but I have (or rather we all suspect at least) that I had my drink spiked once.

I'll admit to not being a complete heavy-weight drinker, but i'm not too bad.  Anyway, friends birthday, go to bar, order my first bottle of beer, have a glug, pop to toilet, come back, have several more glugs (so now approx 1/3 of my way into my first drink of the day).  Next thing I remember i'm in A&E with my mates about 2 hrs later.

A&E didn't take it particularly seriously which in some ways I can completely get (surrounded by numerous other people drunk out of their skulls), but given that it had been explained to them that i'd had circa 1/3 of a bottle of weak beer (resulting in me apparently crawling around the floor clutching my chest saying that I couldn't breathe) a slightly more thorough approach may have been nice.

Anyway, a few hours later and the effects have completely gone so just left A&E and kept an eye on things for a day or 2.

So no evidence, but collapsing, clutching chest and blacking-out after 1/3 bottle of becks (other than as a statement to the taste) would suggest some other factor at play, and spiking would seem to possibly fit the bill (though you could also argue possible underlying medical condition etc).  



Soooooooo with that in mind, and back onto the subject at hand, the thought occurs (and i'll say that I'm still of the opinion that it's simply people being heavily asleep) - but just in the interest of looking at all options (and based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever other than a hypothetical query) - could your water tank get 'spiked' with something by way of the fill point?

As I say, I don't believe this to be the case at all, i'm just curious as I don't seem to have come across it as an option in discussions.


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## n brown (Aug 11, 2013)

can't see that scenario,nobody would know what size tank they're spiking.and as for spiking drinks,it's usually done for a reason,either sexual or for robbery or abduction. mind you there are people out there might give you a micky for a laugh,spiking drinks with lsd wasn't unheard of when I were a lad


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## hextal (Aug 11, 2013)

Well it turned out a few weeks later that there had been a spate of it in Leeds over the space of that month - nice.  I want to say from memory it was something like horse tranquilizers but that doesn't sound right.  I think it was some type of veterinary medication though (as in used by rather than used on)


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## n brown (Aug 11, 2013)

ketamine,a very popular choice !


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## r4dent (Aug 11, 2013)

*The meaning of "sic"*

The Latin adverb sic ("thus"; in full: sic erat scriptum, "thus was it written") added immediately after a quoted word or phrase (or a longer piece of text), indicates that the quotation has been transcribed exactly as found in the original source, complete with any erroneous spelling or other nonstandard presentation.

The notation's usual purpose is to inform the reader that any errors or apparent errors in the transcribed material do not arise from errors in the course of the transcription, and the errors have been repeated intentionally, i.e., that they are reproduced exactly as set down by the original writer or printer.


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## Covey (Aug 11, 2013)

I am quite sure that the security services of various major powers have come up with some form of knockout gas which in theory leaves the victims none the wiser that they have been done over, but that is a very long way from sundry villains wandering the highways and byways of Europe looking for a motorhome to give a squirt to!  One does not seem to hear the same level of "gas attack" stories for caravaners!!  

Mind you, the Russians tried to use their knockout gas in a major hostage situation and only succeeded in killing half the hostages with the gas.  If the KGB managed to cock it up, then I doubt that the petty thieves have greater skills!  If one accepts that there is a narrow dividing line between knocking out your victim and actually killing them, one might have expected to hear of more un-attributable deaths of whole families of MH owners whilst on holiday.

Whilst petty thieving of laptops and mobiles and credit cards is a reasonably low risk/low reward crime, the possible death of the victims from gassing makes it a highly risky crime.  The police might not get too excited about the loss of laptops and mobiles, but crime causing the death of tourists would hopefully cause a different response.

Why do we not hear of similar instances in the UK??  None of the stories I have ever read about gas attacks ever took place in the UK.

Presumably if this is a not uncommon style of crime, then presumably the police will know which type of gas is being used and would issue warnings.  It does not seem to be the sort of stuff that can be cooked up in ones kitchen!! so where does it come from???????????

The real worry in a MH or caravan is carbon monoxide and that really is a killer and quickly, but then that is usually down to faulty maintenance (or lack of maintenance) to the appliances in the vehicle.

Covey will keep the baseball bat handy just in case!!


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## craig9760 (Aug 11, 2013)

*Dual Sensing Gas Alarm for Caravan/Motorhome*

hi you need 1 off these on ebay only a £10.50  
SLA-862 Dual Sensing Gas Alarm for Caravan/Motorhome RRP £ 49.99 | eBay
looks the part  ok for wild camping :dance:


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## Covey (Aug 11, 2013)

The SOPOALARM I have fitted in my Hymer is :

Narkosegas-Warngerät SopoAlarm

I have no idea how good it is and cannot see any way of testing it as I don't have a bottle of knockout gas!!!


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## sparrks (Aug 11, 2013)

What were they? I don't remember them.


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## Covey (Aug 11, 2013)

[No message]


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## dave and mary (Aug 11, 2013)

craig9760 said:


> hi you need 1 off these on ebay only a £10.50
> SLA-862 Dual Sensing Gas Alarm for Caravan/Motorhome RRP £ 49.99 | eBay
> looks the part  ok for wild camping :dance:



This is a very good device for the money, it reacts to propane, butane, hair spray, deodorant, and many other things, so if using the said things you have to keep away from it as it will go of.


       :drive:       :drive:


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## sparrks (Aug 11, 2013)

Ahh, those, I didn't realise they were supposed to reduce car sickness. I had bought one, which was rubber with fine steel wires inside to prevent myself from getting a shock from the static charge when exiting the vehicle - for that it worked extremely well.


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## Tony Lee (Aug 11, 2013)

jakekelly said:


> posting abject apology ! but whats with the "sic"comment?what is that for?



I think it is when people are so clever that they can pick someone's bad spelling and when they quote it, they don't want anyone to think they are so dense that they didn't notice.

Not sure why it matters exactly where something happened as especially in this case the difference between being in Belgium and France is just a couple of eye-blinks.


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## Luckheart (Aug 11, 2013)

dave and mary said:


> This is a very good device for the money, it reacts to propane, butane, hair spray, deodorant, and many other things, so if using the said things you have to keep away from it as it will go of.
> 
> 
> :drive:       :drive:



Did you have one onboard when you had your problem?


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## Covey (Aug 11, 2013)

I "tested" my noxious gas alarm using a pre injection swap which is a piece of tissue soaked with isopropyl Alcohol and it took 6 seconds to sound the alarm when I opened the foil packet and dropped the swab on the floor about 18 inches from the unit.

I am sure this is not a very scientific test, but the unit picked up the alcohol vapour and that triggered the alarm.  The English instruction booklet states the unit is designed to detect "ether type vapour" as one of its target list.

I would also assume that any anaesthetic type gas would have to be lighter than air otherwise it would sit in the lungs,  so the gas would tend to rise.  LPG is heavier than air so it falls which is why we should all have a big hole in the base of our gas compartments.  Anaesthetic gas needs to be of a certain concentration to put one to sleep, yet in my Hymer, the two double beds are of differing heights from the floor, therefore the two occupants will receive differing doses.  Having my very large roof light in the 1st vent position would allow lighter than air gas to escape so you would have to pump in more.

Having put everybody to sleep, the thieves would have to open the doors and windows to vent the gas otherwise they get knocked out.  Wearing a respirator (gas mask) would not work as the gas is a gas and not airborne droplets (like teargas) so your thieves would have to wear scuba air tanks.

All the police on the continent have to do is watch out for a Citroen 2CV with scuba tanks in the back and Job Done!!!


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## maingate (Aug 11, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Ahh, those, I didn't realise they were supposed to reduce car sickness. I had bought one, which was rubber with fine steel wires inside to prevent myself from getting a shock from the static charge when exiting the vehicle - for that it worked extremely well.



They *were* used for anti static purposes due to the upholstery being made from a man made material, I don't remember them being used for car sickness. The best cure for that was to sit on a sheet of newspaper. It seems crazy but it works. :wave:

As has been said, the purpose made ones often wore away quickly until they did not reach the ground. I got round this by just fitting a length of thin wire fixed to the chassis instead. It was so lightweight that it was lifted off the ground when moving (even very slowly) and therefore lasted a long time.


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## dave and mary (Aug 11, 2013)

Luckheart said:


> Did you have one onboard when you had your problem?



unfortunately not, in those days I did not think that night robbery's were something that happened. In our previous van the person who owned it before us had fitted one, but I never put it on. So easy to be wise after the event.


              :drive:     :drive:


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## Beemer (Aug 11, 2013)

I have been following this thread with interest, and if nothing else, it has raised my awareness about motor-home security whilst my family are sleeping.
This weekend we tested our Cobra alarm system, which allows all doors that are fitted with sensors, to be armed, without the internal movement sensors activated, and it works!
Not used it before, but think it wise that it should be in future!
Off to the continent soon, and don't want anything to spoil our holiday. :banana:


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## n brown (Aug 11, 2013)

Beemer said:


> I have been following this thread with interest, and if nothing else, it has raised my awareness about motor-home security whilst my family are sleeping.
> This weekend we tested our Cobra alarm system, which allows all doors that are fitted with sensors, to be armed, without the internal movement sensors activated, and it works!
> Not used it before, but think it wise that it should be in future!
> Off to the continent soon, and don't want anything to spoil our holiday. :banana:


have a gas!


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## fletch (Aug 11, 2013)

I've been following this thread also, the original poster reported his experience in good faith, even accepting a bit of naivety in carrying that much money aboard. But for whatever reason they didn't awake their experience has further raised awareness of security issues on the continent & may just prompt another forum member who's been thinking about upgrading security/locks etc to do it thus possibly detering a future break in to their van.

Whilst recognising that the majority of replies are positive, in my opinion they've shown restraint in their replies to a minority of pathetic responses, I personally wouldn't have been so polite. It'll make me think twice about sharing any experiences on here which I'd like to think may help other people.


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## Mul (Aug 11, 2013)

*Gassing myth*

Without trawling through dozens of pages and the ping-pong of I'm right no - you're wrong ad infinitum descending into personal abuse and keyboard warrior righteousness,  I trust this hasn't been mentioned yet ... ?

From elsewhere ....


_

"Since this debate rattles on from time to time, with much deliberation over how and what, I thought I'd try to get an expert view on the feasibility of using narcotic gases to knock out the occupants of motorhomes/caravans. 

Since they do this all the time, so to speak, I thought I'd ask the Royal College of Anaesthetists. Somewhat to my surprise, they provided the following reply. Interesting isn't it? Sleep tight folks! 

Dear Mr XXXXX, 

Thank you for your enquiry. I would like to inform you that you are not the first enquirer with this question. Professor Hatch, our Clinical Advisor, has given the following previous comments: 

"I can give you a categorical assurance that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious with ether without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect of the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a rag, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. 

There are much more powerful agents around now, some of which are almost odourless. However, these would be unlikely to be able to achieve the effect you describe, and the cost would be huge enough to deter any thief unless he was after the crown jewels. The only practicable agent is probably the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege - I advised the BBC on their programme about this. The general feeling is that they used an agent which is not available outside the KGB! 

Finally, unsupervised anaesthesia, which is what we are really talking about is very dangerous. In the Moscow siege about 20% of victims died from asphyxia, because their airways were unprotected. If the reports you talk about are true I would have expected a significant number of deaths or cases of serious brain damage to have been reported." 

I hope this information is helpful to you. 

Regards, 

Ms Shirani Nadarajah 
General Administrator 

Professional Standards Directorate 
The Royal College of Anaesthetists"" _


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## 666jw (Aug 11, 2013)

On the basis that the letter is genuine, I have now changed my opinion . :sad::drive:


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## lebesset (Aug 11, 2013)

my best friend is a retired consultant from the regional hospital ; we went to dinner at his house one night and another guest was a former colleague of his ...an anaesthatist 

you will not be surprised to learn that I raised this subject ...his response was that it would be easy for the pathologist to determine which gas was used when he carried out the postmortem 

when I told him that there were no known cases of mortality he , in effect , quoted johnny mac ...you cannot be serious


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## ricc (Aug 12, 2013)

thats your opinion , and whilst your entitled to hold it i have to disagree, im new to the wild camping thing and have found this thread very interesting. im now thinking about door security and the possibility of a built in safe box, neither of which id really considered before..

if you take your " further debate will not achieve any more than it has done in the past" to its logical conclusion all forums will die cos there will be nothing that anyone can post about that hasnt been discussed previously.


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## Covey (Aug 12, 2013)

The thing I find extraordinary is the admission by one member that he has a full Thatcham Alarm system and recently tested it for the first time and IT WORKS!!! He goes on to say that he will use it  in the future.

Another member says that they are thinking about door security and possibly having a small lock box installed.

I would have thought that the nature of this Forum would mean that members are constantly thinking about security of their van and personage because they are contemplating camping in the wild!!!

We are warned to leave the window covers off to allow for a quick getaway if our wild camping spot turns out to be wilder than we wanted yet some are only now testing alarm systems designed to protect the member and his/her family.

I would have thought security of the van and family was a primary concern long before we put the key in the ignition!!!

Maybe if some members go off and do not use the fitted security devices, announcing they were subject of a gas attack is a convenient excuse for their own stupidity.  The alternative is the insurance company declining to pay on a claim.  My insurers state I must have a CAT1 Thatcham Alarm and they state it must be regularly serviced.  If I trawled through the small print of the policy I am sure I will find a clause which states not only must I have the appropriate alarm systems, BUT I MUST USE IT!!!!


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## 666jw (Aug 12, 2013)

Covey said:


> The thing I find extraordinary is the admission by one member that he has a full Thatcham Alarm system and recently tested it for the first time and IT WORKS!!! He goes on to say that he will use it  in the future.
> 
> Another member says that they are thinking about door security and possibly having a small lock box installed.
> 
> ...



Yes I've got a factory fitted alarm. I got a factory fitted smoke alarm. I even had a floor safe fitted, which is a great asset and relatively inexpensive ( about £70 ) . I can honestly say I've not "serviced" my alarm recently,.........that's a new one on me !


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## shortcircuit (Aug 12, 2013)

If your insurance company requires an alarm to be fitted, you may well find within the small print of their policy that your alarm needs to have an annual service by an approved alarm company, similar to domestic alarms, to ensure it all works correctly.  In event of a claim they may want to see the maintenance dockets.


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## Covey (Aug 12, 2013)

I think the reference to having my alarm "serviced" means checked regularly by a registered installer and certified as in full working order. 

My alarm system covers the doors, windows, external storage bins, garage, bike rack and motion sensors inside the MH.  If I leave a bin unlocked then it beeps when I set the alarm to warn me that one area is insecure. I assume that the checks are to ensure that all the door and area sensors are working correctly and the wiring is secure.

However nothing will prevent my walking away and forgetting to set the alarm.  When I was parked on a CC site at Gatwick I never set the alarm at night (but set the deadlocks on the doors) but would set it if I went off site.

Now I am touring in Europe (Holland at present and no wild camping permitted by law!) I set the external alarm at night and my noxious gas alarm.


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## 666jw (Aug 12, 2013)

shortcircuit said:


> If your insurance company requires an alarm to be fitted, you may well find within the small print of their policy that your alarm needs to have an annual service by an approved alarm company, similar to domestic alarms, to ensure it all works correctly.  In event of a claim they may want to see the maintenance dockets.



Worrying ! Numerous vehicles in the family and and more than one property. That's a first, and i have never yet done this in all my life. I always assumed that if your alarm  worked, it was working, and you have alarmed your property. If it doesn't, then it has broken and needs fixing and you have not alarmed the item.

Fwiw, I have had the odd claim over the years, and never been questioned. Still the claims have been years ago., times may have changed.


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## mandymops (Aug 13, 2013)

maingate said:


> They *were* used for anti static purposes due to the upholstery being made from a man made material, I don't remember them being used for car sickness. The best cure for that was to sit on a sheet of newspaper. It seems crazy but it works. :wave:
> 
> As has been said, the purpose made ones often wore away quickly until they did not reach the ground. I got round this by just fitting a length of thin wire fixed to the chassis instead. It was so lightweight that it was lifted off the ground when moving (even very slowly) and therefore lasted a long time.



Sounds of the same ilk as the theory that lining your shoes with brown paper stops jet-lag. Surely it must be a placebo effect.


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## Beemer (Aug 14, 2013)

Covey said:


> The thing I find extraordinary is the admission by one member that he has a full Thatcham Alarm system and recently tested it for the first time and IT WORKS!!! He goes on to say that he will use it  in the future.
> 
> Maybe if some members go off and do not use the fitted security devices, announcing they were subject of a gas attack is a convenient excuse for their own stupidity.  The alternative is the insurance company declining to pay on a claim.  My insurers state I must have a CAT1 Thatcham Alarm and they state it must be regularly serviced.  If I trawled through the small print of the policy I am sure I will find a clause which states not only must I have the appropriate alarm systems, BUT I MUST USE IT!!!!



I always set my alarm system when leaving my vehicle, as my insurance company implores, but there is no small print/clause insisting I set the alarm when I/we are in it, or that it must be serviced, just working. 
After owning the m/h for six months I have only just found out that my system has the ability to arm doors but not interior, which I shall use in future! Nothing extraordinary about that!
 I am quietly confident that I can protect my family inside my m/h when awake, and never felt the need to put extra systems into place, other than locking all doors during the night. However, after discovering the alarms benefits, I shall do the 'belt and braces' bit, because I can.

After speaking to clinical academics where I work, I do not believe I would be using a gas attack as a convenient excuse to my insurance company, as I believe they might just think I am stupid.


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## Ste (Aug 14, 2013)

666jw said:


> I always assumed that if your alarm worked, it was working



Ever had a dead battery? What do you think powers the alarm? Especially when you leave it in storage


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## scampa (Aug 14, 2013)

maingate said:


> They *were* used for anti static purposes due to the upholstery being made from a man made material, *I don't remember them being used for car sickness. *



A few of those anti-static strips are still marketed as "anti car-sickness" devices. One of the customer reviews of this brand says that it seems to have worked for her dog (or maybe the dog has just got accustomed to travelling in the car?)....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Car-Anti-Static-Rubber-Prevent-Sickness/dp/B005O7VWO2

They used to sell a version for sufferers of air-sickness, but they were very cumbersome and prohibitively expensive, so they never really took off!   lane:


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## n8rbos (Aug 14, 2013)

What do folk think to the use of scopolamine/BurunDanga? Is it possible this is whats been used?


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## bigmillie (Aug 14, 2013)

N8rbos said:


> What do folk think to the use of scopolamine/BurunDanga? Is it possible this is whats been used?



snopes.com: Burundanga/Scopolamine Warning


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## 666jw (Aug 14, 2013)

Ste said:


> Ever had a dead battery? What do you think powers the alarm? Especially when you leave it in storage



I assume the service engineer at the "alarm servicing business" , can't do much about that then. Have to hope there's not another insurance policy inclusion, stating vehicle batteries must also undergo annual servicing, ( by a battery servicing company)  or insurance is void.............. We're all doomed


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## Byronic (Aug 14, 2013)

scampa said:


> A few of those anti-static strips are still marketed as "anti car-sickness" devices. One of the customer reviews of this brand says that it seems to have worked for her dog (or maybe the dog has just got accustomed to travelling in the car?)....
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Car-Anti-Static-Rubber-Prevent-Sickness/dp/B005O7VWO2
> 
> They used to sell a version for sufferers of air-sickness, but they were very cumbersome and prohibitively expensive, so they never really took off!   lane:



The very same firm that made a version for swimmers, not very successful I'm afraid, profits dived and they soon went under.


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## Harmergeddon (Aug 14, 2013)

scampa said:


> They used to sell a version for sufferers of air-sickness, but they were very cumbersome and prohibitively expensive, so they never really took off!   lane:



Boom Boom. Very good. :lol-053:


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## MancK9 (Aug 14, 2013)

I bought my van used, it has a pretty comprehensive alarm system (magnetic contacts on doors and belly lockers etc) and it also has a gas alarm for this very reason.  The previous owner toured France / Italy quite a bit.
Cant say as I have ever used it as we are in the UK only at the mo - but its good to know its there should we travel over the pond.
In terms of carrying £4k in hard cash around... a safe is a good idea!


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## Tbear (Aug 14, 2013)

fftopic:

I am sure that everybody has made their mind up about gassing by now but on the subject of rubber being an insulator. Rubber Wheels used in the presence of gasses such as Ether are impregnated with conductive material to render them Antistatic in order to prevent static sparks. I am guessing that is theory behind the rubber strips fitted to cars. It lets the static drain to earth.

Richard


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## Pauljenny (Aug 14, 2013)

*Enough of this gassing*

Having ploughed through all of this lengthy thread , I feel as if I have reached enlightenment .

     I am prepared to do it again ,blindfolded, to raise money for my favourite charity "  Help The Raddled "

      Anyone care to sponsor me ?


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## mariesnowgoose (Aug 14, 2013)

Gosh! Have you seen the length of this thread and number of views?

I should think the amount of gassing that's gone on in here is sufficient to cause a large explosion.

Hmm. There's a thought.  Anybody got a match?! :lol-061: :rolleyes2:


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## Byronic (Aug 14, 2013)

Car tyres are not full of carbon black, they contain various percentages. In a lightening strike where enormous electrical energy is discharged then they are considered as electrical conductors. But when considering small quantities of electrical energy such as found in car static charge cases, then tire rubber is regarded as an  insulator. Therefore a rubber strap with high conductance metal wire or infill is needed to discharge to earth, thus byepassing the tyres.


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## Covey (Aug 14, 2013)

MancK9 said:


> I bought my van used, it has a pretty comprehensive alarm system (magnetic contacts on doors and belly lockers etc) and it also has a gas alarm for this very reason.



I have a "gas alarm" but it turned out not to be for the type of gas I thought it protected me from!!

I assume that an LPG/Butane type gas alarm is thought to be a good idea and an alarm to guard against carbon monoxide would seem to be a very good idea.  You can smell LPG gas should it leak, but carbon monoxide does not smell and kills quickly.

A smoke alarm is now standard in most homes so one inside your MH is probably a good idea.

In connection with this thread, "a gas alarm" should warn of the presence of "narcotic gasses" ie: those gasses designed to render the occupants unconscious.  Finding a suitable narcotic gas alarm might be a problem as there are grounds to question the validity of supposed "gas attacks" and nobody seems to be able to offer a definitive explanation of exactly what gas is being used!!

What I thought was an LPG type gas alarm is actually a narcotic gas alarm.  I have now acquired and fitted an LPG gas alarm and a smoke/carbon monoxide alarm.


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## Byronic (Aug 14, 2013)

Of course not, it goes without saying, carbon black yes, and that other ingredient rubber (a given I would have thought). And pure rubber is an insulator,this is commonly found in tyres agreed? 
The reason parts of an ignition system comprise carbon black leads is because carbon black is a good conductor but if  combined with a high percentage of rubber as per said tyre then it would lose, on a proportional basis it's conductance value.


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## Tbear (Aug 14, 2013)

Byronic said:


> Of course not, it goes without saying, carbon black yes, and that other ingredient rubber (a given I would have thought). And pure rubber is an insulator,this is commonly found in tyres agreed?
> The reason parts of an ignition system comprise carbon black leads is because carbon black is a good conductor but if  combined with a high percentage of rubber as per said tyre then it would lose, on a proportional basis it's conductance value.



Is this all not a bit academic as when the road is dry it will not conduct much anyway, will it?

Richard


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## Byronic (Aug 14, 2013)

Tbear said:


> Is this all not a bit academic as when the road is dry it will not conduct much anyway, will it?
> 
> Richard



So in the UK it will be useful 99% of the time then! Academic? Dead right I will not utter another word on the subject. Then again nothing wrong with a bit of academia. No you're right it's boring, comparable with the subject of the original post.


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## sparrks (Aug 14, 2013)

Car tyres are not good conductors of electricity.

On seeing that ludicrous statement I just went out in the drizzle and "Meggered" my van tyre - Probes 10mm apart at 1000V the reading was in excess of 2000M Ohm, which is I guess why they sell conductive straps.


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## n brown (Aug 14, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Car tyres are not good conductors of electricity.
> 
> On seeing that ludicrous statement I just went out in the drizzle and "Meggered" my van tyre - Probes 10mm apart at 1000V the reading was in excess of 2000M Ohm, which is I guess why they sell conductive straps.


 was that a normal Ohm or a motor Ohm ?


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## sparrks (Aug 14, 2013)

n brown said:


> was that a normal Ohm or a motor Ohm ?



An ohm from home


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## maingate (Aug 14, 2013)

My wife used to milk a 100 strong pedigree Friesian herd of cows. One afternoon she was driving to the farm when a huge bolt of lightning hit a tree next to her and blew this huge oak tree apart. She was shocked but unharmed and the car cut out.

The metal box she was sat in was a good conductor of electricity but the tyres were obviously not. Luckily the road was dry but she did get soaked when she and the cattle dog got them out of the field. :lol-049:


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## n brown (Aug 14, 2013)

sparrks said:


> An ohm from home


 a common or garden Ohm?


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## sparrks (Aug 14, 2013)

n brown said:


> a common or garden Ohm?



An Ohmstead


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## n brown (Aug 14, 2013)

for the Ohmless


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## sparrks (Aug 14, 2013)

n brown said:


> for the Ohmless



I did record over 2000 million of them!


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## n brown (Aug 14, 2013)

that's awful !complain to the Ohm Secretary !


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## sparrks (Aug 14, 2013)

n brown said:


> that's awful !complain to the Ohm Secretary !



Ohm my God! Why didn't I think of that.


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## ellisboy (Aug 15, 2013)

Your best off staying at ohm mate.


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## Dezi (Aug 15, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Car tyres are not good conductors of electricity.
> 
> On seeing that ludicrous statement I just went out in the drizzle and "Meggered" my van tyre - Probes 10mm apart at 1000V the reading was in excess of 2000M Ohm, which is I guess why they sell conductive straps.



A word to the wise Wints.

You may be able to get away with that sort of behaviour in rural France, but try to get out of the habit before you return to these more refined climes.

Dezi :cheers:


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## ricc (Aug 15, 2013)

i used to work in an industry that used black rubber componants  , the marketing geniuses decided black was boring so got the carbon black taken out and substituted a silicon compound  to give green mouldings..... usefull life went from years to weeks  apparently the carbon black stopped the uv in daylight from degrading the rubber.    which i would guess is probably why its used in car tyres.


oh and we used copper cored ignition leads on performance engines cos the new fangled carbon filled things were crap.


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

As an expert in what? Yes I can use an insulation tester and understand the results. It is my understanding that the straps are to discharge any build up of static in the vehicle. Of course they wear out, but when new are several inches longer than needed. When the vehicle is at speed then the straps hardly touch, if at all, the ground and unlikely to wear very quickly.


What causes static electricity build up?

Why does it not happen with your cars? Pass.

During the last 10 years or so, working with static sensative devices I now wear anti-static boots for work and no longer get shocks whilst wearing them.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Aug 15, 2013)

*Anti -Static Straps*

When correctly fitted the anti-static strap should just touch the ground, if fitted correctly the strap then lifts from the ground with forward motion and does not wear when stopped it then touches the ground to discharge.    these of course are the English instructions only.  My neighbour has a French contraption for his push push its a 10kg weight on a chain when stopped they drop it out of the door before getting out

Alf


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## n brown (Aug 15, 2013)

I only remember getting static shocks from vehicles when it's really hot and really dry,so hot and dry you don't sweat


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## Byronic (Aug 15, 2013)

[No message]


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## Tbear (Aug 15, 2013)

I know nothing about static in cars but in operating theatres it was very dangerous back in the days of Ether. The Ether was very heavy compared to air so if ventilation did not get rid of it, a spark in the area where the air joined the ether vapour would be a disaster. To prevent this they would attach chains to the metalwork of trollies which dragged on the floor. In practise they failed to work. Wheels where impregnated with conductive material (Carbon based) which was finely mixed with the rubber to provide some resistance so that the static would slowly leak to earth and not cause a spark. As time progressed the floors where also fitted with a conductive grid to make sure there was a good earth. The staff would have a small plug of conductive material in their footwear to earth them and we where not supposed to wear man made fibres. To this day scrubs are made from cotton or linen and air is vented from theatre at ground level.

Richard


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## Deleted member 5816 (Aug 15, 2013)

*Tyre Conductivity*

It seems you need a ohm meter that reads in the excess of one million ohms according the continental tyre website




sparrks said:


> Car tyres are not good conductors of electricity.
> 
> On seeing that ludicrous statement I just went out in the drizzle and "Meggered" my van tyre - Probes 10mm apart at 1000V the reading was in excess of 2000M Ohm, which is I guess why they sell conductive straps.


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## Byronic (Aug 15, 2013)

I have answered it in my earlier post. When a car tyre is subjected to very high electrical energy (lightning) it is considered to be a conductor.When it is subjected to relatively weak electrical energy eg static build up as generated in a car it is considered as an insulator. It's all a relative thing or a question of degree. Apply to many materials a high enough charge and they become conductors but at low levels they resist sufficient enough to be considered insulators.
Car tyres these days have less carbon black, (substituted with silica: the black pigmentation can be provided by synthetics). But this has resulted in greater electrical resistance, counteracted by some manufacturers by incorporating carbon strips.


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

Carbon Black

I know it's from Wikipedia but...........

Surface chemistry

All carbon blacks have chemisorbed oxygen complexes (i.e., carboxylic, quinonic, lactonic, phenolic groups and others) on their surfaces to varying degrees depending on the conditions of manufacture. These surface oxygen groups are collectively referred to as volatile content. _It is also known to be a non-conductive material due to its volatile content. Maybe that's your answer
_
The coatings and inks industries prefer grades of carbon black that are acid oxidized. Acid is sprayed in high temperature dryers during the manufacturing process to change the inherent surface chemistry of the black. The amount of chemically-bonded oxygen on the surface area of the black is increased to enhance performance characteristics.


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

Alf 1 said:


> It seems you need a ohm meter that reads in the excess of one million ohms according the continental tyre website



2000M Ohms exceeds one million ohms. 2000M Ohms is 2000 million Ohms or 2 billion Ohms


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

[No message]


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## Byronic (Aug 15, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Have you actually seen these strips? Just curious because I would have thought for them to be effective they would go from rim to tread, so they would earth the car via the wheel hub and the ground. If the strip was around the circumference then it would never be in contact with the metal parts of the car.



Have seen them on motorbike tyres, some time ago, the line was visible on the circumference but there was no visible line to the rim, but then of course this section wouldn't need to be in contact with the road and could be buried in the tyre wall. I made casual enquiries and was told that some car tyres had this same feature for the reasons I gave in my previous post ie reduced carbon black.
Should have added that hubs (all that grease) can insulate the car body from road earth, sometimes a thin metal tab contact was fixed on the axle thrust washer/nut anywhere to form a bridge mainly to attenuate radio static interference I think.


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

Byronic said:


> Have seen them on motorbike tyres, some time ago, the line was visible on the circumference but there was no visible line to the rim, but then of course this section wouldn't need to be in contact with the road and could be buried in the tyre wall. I made casual enquiries and was told that some car tyres had this same feature for the reasons I gave in my previous post ie reduced carbon black.



I guess they could also be using the steel brading/bands inside the tyres. One thing I am certain of, is that the tread on my tyres are great insulators - at least at 1000volt and at whatever miniscule current it uses.


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## Byronic (Aug 15, 2013)

sparrks said:


> I guess they could also be using the steel brading/bands inside the tyres. One thing I am certain of, is that the tread on my tyres are great insulators - at least at 1000volt and at whatever miniscule current it uses.



As you say great insulators at weak levels. Thats why the steel braids aren't used to the best of my knowledge, and needs the rubber as protection. Taking steel out to the rim or to the road ie away from the protection of the rubber would present a few probs. corrosion for eg.


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## sparrks (Aug 15, 2013)

Byronic said:


> As you say great insulators at weak levels. Thats why the steel braids aren't used to the best of my knowledge, and needs the rubber as protection. Taking steel out to the rim or to the road ie away from the protection of the rubber would present a few probs. corrosion for eg.



I was thinking more along the lines of using the braid within the carcass and the conductive rubber strip (if fitted) to take it out to tread


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## Byronic (Aug 15, 2013)

sparrks said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of using the braid within the carcass and the conductive rubber strip (if fitted) to take it out to tread



I suppose that's possible, but practical I'm not sure. You then have to get from braid to rim 2 joints differing materials and steel is not always used. Don't ask me why I ever knew this this but Google US Patent 58980747A Granted to Goodyear 1999. How many tyre co's use the invention I don't know but I have seen anti static line on motorcycle tyres, which I presume is derived from this Patent. Read thru that and you'll probably be able to win a pub quiz!!


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