# Have you thought/realised?



## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on. ( Edit for Sam: At the time of writing, no-one is suggesting the vaccine will 100% stop you passing CV on)

So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.

That's ok if everyone has had the vaccine, and it's 100 percent effective. Ooops.

So I think there will be a fair few at risk people that because it's not 100 percent are still going to suffer. And then the lot who won't have the vaccine thinking they are not at risk, some will be without knowing it.

Travel: It won't matter a hoot about whether you've had the vaccine or not, you could still be a risk to the country you're entering so unless they've also vaccinated eveyone they'll probably still have restrictions like quarantine in place that you'll have to follow.

I know this seems a bit of a negative post but:

I'd like to have my thinking changed if someone can show me why any of that is wrong.

I like to just know where I am rather than looking forward to that Easter trip to France - it isn't going to happen...

If anyone reading, or people they know, thinks they don't need the vaccine because they probably won't get it. You/they WILL catch CV. Perhaps my post will sway you.

Discuss lol.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 30, 2021)

Yup.

A fair old percentage of the world needs to be vaccinated before we see any way out of the woods.

The treatments will get better (they already have!) which, together with the vaccines, will hopefully reduce the risk of long term health damage and death.

The whole world is on a massive learning curve and there is still a lot of 'educating' to be done.


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## trevskoda (Jan 30, 2021)

The new to soon be released vaccine will be 99% effective, so roll on summertime.


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## mark61 (Jan 30, 2021)

Your thinking doesn't sound wrong to me, apart from I don't think there is enough there to change anyones mind, if they've already chosen not to have the vaccine.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 30, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> The new to soon be released vaccine will be 99% effective, so roll on summertime.



Let's hope so!


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## antiquesam (Jan 30, 2021)

I thought the jury was still out on whether any of the vaccines stopped you catching it or passing it on.


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## 2cv (Jan 30, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I thought the jury was still out on whether any of the vaccines stopped you catching it or passing it on.



The government advice at present is that it may reduce the risk of passing it on. Link


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

People not having the vaccine is a poor decision in my opinion, but as long as there’s not enough of them to stop us reaching heard immunity it’s not that important, biggest issue is we don’t actually know the percentage of people needed to teach heard immunity with CV-19 so the more non believers we can convert the better.


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## antiquesam (Jan 30, 2021)

2cv said:


> The government advice at present is that it may reduce the risk of passing it on. Link


I know that is the advice, but that is because they are not yet sure. Your post gave some certainty to an inconclusive hypothesis. A bit like the stories about the Astrazeneca jab isn't effective for the over 65's.


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## Fazerloz (Jan 30, 2021)

People will still get it the difference is how you will react to it.
If all the vaccine does is just stop someone having to shove a plastic tube down your throat and keep people off intensive care, That'l do for me.


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## jagmanx (Jan 30, 2021)

I agree 100% with post no 1
Whatever the effectifvenees of whichever vaccine is used
Roll out takes time and does not preveent transmission
So huge danger if restrictions are relaxed/ignored (and they will be ignored)
I think we are 1 year away from anything like normality. Being realistiic..NOT negative.
AND then a huge medical backlog to try to clear


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## Neckender (Jan 30, 2021)

I had a text from my GPs yesterday to book my appointment for the jab and I have it next Friday morning.

John.


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## molly 2 (Jan 30, 2021)

The vaccine  rollout is going well  ,summer is just round the  corner , we need to believe that things will get better soon .other virus have been beaten  and we  will  beat covid  .


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## REC (Jan 30, 2021)

Even if we don't beat it entirely, I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe this is a wake up call and life will always be slightly different for everyone. Not always a bad thing. I do wonder whether the Asian custom of wearing masks if unwell will be one thing carried on. I don't mind, the seasonal illness rate for flu, antivirus etc has reduced and new viruses are a distinct possibility. Even watching tv and films, I now feel uneasy when I see crowded groups, wonder how long and whether that will persist?


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## Derekoak (Jan 30, 2021)

Behind the numbers: what does it mean if a Covid vaccine has ‘90% efficacy’?









						Behind the numbers: what does it mean if a Covid vaccine has ‘90% efficacy’? | David Spiegelhalter
					

Confusion surrounds the vaccines’ effectiveness. The leading Cambridge professor clarifies the data behind the trials




					www.theguardian.com
				



  I found this interesting. The last paragraph says the the astrazeneca vaccine had a 45% tentative  reduction in infectivity.
  Separately I also heard that despite the acceptable vaccines not being 100% in avoiding positive tests, not one person who has been vaccinated with them has been hospitalized or died of covid. Not to say that it will never happen.


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## izwozral (Jan 30, 2021)

Anti vaxxer's should have there passports nulled and for the pro vaxxer's they should have a card that shows they have been vaccinated and when the time comes for a new passport it can be shown in there. It should also be a requirement for visas to show you have been vaccinated.


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## molly 2 (Jan 30, 2021)

izwozral said:


> Anti vaxxer's should have there passports nulled and for the pro vaxxer's they should have a card that shows they have been vaccinated and when the time comes for a new passport it can be shown in there. It should also be a requirement for visas to show you have been vaccinated.


Not exactly  what you mean  but you do get a card  with your  details on after your  first jab.


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## antiquesam (Jan 30, 2021)

My darling wife had the letter today and went straight on line to book the times. Four attempts as appointments were taken up before she completed, meaning having to start from scratch. The vaccination centre is just across the park from us so hopefully she won't want a lift.


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## mark61 (Jan 30, 2021)

I’ll be opposing any movement to single out or restrict people who haven’t had the vaccine, regardless of me having it. 

Besides, you can’t label all the people who won’t/can't have it as “anti vaxer’s.”

As to traveling in the near future, might as well chuck ten scenarios in a hat and pull one out.


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## Cass (Jan 30, 2021)

Booked in for mine on Wednesday


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## campervanannie (Jan 30, 2021)

I thought from what JVT says it prevents you getting seriously il if you do get CV and he is one of a few so called experts that appear to tell it how it is.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> People not having the vaccine is a poor decision in my opinion, but as long as there’s not enough of them to stop us reaching heard immunity it’s not that important, biggest issue is we don’t actually know the percentage of people needed to teach heard immunity with CV-19 so the more non believers we can convert the better.



The thing is, if you can still catch and pass on after being vaccinated, heard immunity doesn't exist full stop. 



campervanannie said:


> I thought from what JVT says it prevents you getting seriously il if you do get CV and he is one of a few so called experts that appear to tell it how it is.



That's what we're all hoping for otherwise it's a bit of a waste of time and effort lol.


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The thing is, if you can still catch and pass on after being vaccinated, heard immunity doesn't exist full stop.
> 
> Your right, you can still catch it and pass it on, but with sufficient growth in immunity due to vaccination and exposure the disease will still be present but less and less lethal, heard immunity, now I’m no medical expert but the WHO are and they seem to thing otherwise https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19, as does the Lancet https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362031924-3/fulltext


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## TissyD (Jan 30, 2021)

The vaccine should have been made mandatory just like polio and smallpox was. What about all the illegals who won't get it because they don't exist.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> ....



From your link:


> To safely achieve herd immunity against COVID-19, a substantial proportion of a population would need to be vaccinated, lowering the overall amount of virus able to spread in the whole population.



That's assuming the vaccine stops you getting, and spreading, the virus.

As far as we know at the moment, it doesn't.


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> From your link:
> 
> 
> That's assuming the vaccine stops you getting, and spreading, the virus.
> ...



No the vaccine will hopefully stop you from dying from it, and that gives your immune system a chance to build anti body’s, over a period of time, we should all become immune as Anti body’s get stronger etc...


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## izwozral (Jan 30, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I’ll be opposing any movement to single out or restrict people who haven’t had the vaccine, regardless of me having it.
> 
> Besides, you can’t label all the people who won’t/can't have it as “anti vaxer’s.”
> 
> As to traveling in the near future, might as well chuck ten scenarios in a hat and pull one out.



There are some people who can't have the vaccine because of health reasons, my comments are aimed at those who are anti- vaxxer's just because they are ill informed, ignorant or just plain stupid. 

Any idea of foreign travel this year is probably dead in the water, maybe next year too?


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## Minisorella (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on.
> 
> So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.
> 
> ...


All really good points Steve and I'd only add/clarify that vaccinated people who are alerted of close contact or tested positive for COVID still have to isolate as usual and _everyone _still has to socially distance according to whatever rules are in place.  I so wish the media journalists and their interviewees with vested interests would remember all this!

The 'scramble' for vaccination queue-jumping is getting really distastefully embarrassing because of this lack of understanding.  There may be a very slight reduction in infection and transmission but this is by no means enough to avoid them completely. We all know the main function of the vaccine is to prevent serious illness, hospitalisation and death in those who are susceptible through age or vulnerability, etc... and we know this works because my understanding is that no-one who was vaccinated in the trials etc and went on to test positive for COVID subsequently died or needed to be hospitalised - anywhere in the world! This is why I'm incredibly irritated by the suggestion that teachers, police and other groups should be put forward as worthy of the vaccine ahead of tiers 5-9. Their argument is that they're public-facing and the vaccine would make them and their workplace safer and maintain full staffing levels. Knowing that they can still catch COVID and pass it on - plus still be required to self isolate for the usual reasons - makes these arguments total nonsense... and shameful.

The JCVI tier list was worked out expertly to allow for every outcome of vaccinating or not vaccinating people in a certain order. With the basic premise of preventing hospitalisations and deaths, the tiers were as perfect as they could get them.  If _any _of the tiers are queue-jumped, my poor tv and radio will get even more of ear-bashing than they've gotten used to lately!


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> No the vaccine will hopefully stop you from dying from it, and that gives your immune system a chance to build anti body’s, over a period of time, we should all become immune as Anti body’s get stronger etc...



Again, you're assuming getting it stops you from passing it on in the future. Our current understanding is that this is not true.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Again, you're assuming getting it stops you from passing it on in the future. *Our current understanding is that this is not true*.



No, they just don't have sufficient data yet.
Whether it simply reduces transmission by a percentage, or stops transmission entirely, they can't say as too early to tell. 
That's my understanding from JVT's explanation etc.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> No, they just don't have sufficient data yet.



Agreed.

What I've seen, which only gives half the story, is that is two different sets of retirement flats I do maintenance at have had vacinnated residents test positive. This is in the last week or so, and their vaccine jab was ages ago.

Problems with that are:

False positive,
Only one dose,
We don't know if they could pass it on.

All it does hint at is that we can't yet say vacinnated people are "safe" and the dropout of that is that we can't say heard immunity WILL happen.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> All it does hint at is that we can't yet say vacinnated people are "safe" and the dropout of that is that we can't say heard immunity WILL happen.



Yes, and we have only vaccinated a relatively small percentage of the population to date.
Only Israel has gone down the 'whole nation' route and are miles ahead.
Let's see what the data/scientific results are from that down the line.

Patience, patience and a little bit more patience...


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Again, you're assuming getting it stops you from passing it on in the future. Our current understanding is that this is not true.



I‘m assuming nothing of the sort.

You and I are at risk of violently AGREEING here, there Is zero% chance that the vaccine will stop the virus being passed on, if you have a vaccine injected into your body then that will NOT protect you from touching a shopping trolley handle with the virus on, or from picking up a pear in the super market, transferring the virus to the pear, someone coming along and touching or buying the pear and getting or passing the virus on, it simply can’t do that.

But what it can do is tell your immune system to start protecting you, so when you come into contact with the virus your body is ready to fight it, you’ll still get it, and still transmit it if your not careful, but hopefully it won’t kill you or put you in ICU.

Have a look here https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/how-do-vaccines-work

The more people are vaccinated the more we are protected, not from getting covid, but from being serious ill or dying of covid


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## rugbyken (Jan 30, 2021)

a friend of ours babs 84 had her vaccine 2 days before christmas was visited by her son mid fifties for birthday on boxing day he became  very ill with covid a few days later hospitalised etc babs obviously caught it from him but has only been ill if even 3-4 days of the vaccine has given her that much protection it’s good enough for me , 
     like others can’t see us able to get out for a few months and given the present state of vaccination chaos in europe don’t think we will/should be allowed there for several more


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## trevskoda (Jan 30, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I thought the jury was still out on whether any of the vaccines stopped you catching it or passing it on.


The one to be released may do and ahead of the first two.


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## argoose (Jan 30, 2021)

TissyD said:


> The vaccine should have been made mandatory just like polio and smallpox was. What about all the illegals who won't get it because they don't exist.


Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.



so she keeps telling me


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## 2cv (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.



This has been the case for may years to enter some countries, Yellow Fever just as an example. This is for general protection as the vaccine makes retransmission less likely. Already some transport providers have said that to use their services evidence of covid vaccination will be required. (Quantas and Saga cruises as examples.)


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## GinaRon (Jan 30, 2021)

I have just had my vaccine this afternoon and I got a STICKER saying so  (haven't had one of them since school)      I had the vaccine so if I did get it hopefully it wont be bad.


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## antiquesam (Jan 30, 2021)

2cv said:


> This has been the case for may years to enter some countries, Yellow Fever just as an example. This is for general protection as the vaccine makes retransmission less likely. Already some transport providers have said that to use their services evidence of covid vaccination will be required. (Quantas and Saga cruises as examples.)


In all the instances you highlight are a matter of personal choice. You don't have to travel with a particular airline or holiday company nor go to a country that requires a yellow fever certificate.


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## maingate (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.



There are some people in their 30's who would have liked the jab. They are currently living their final few hours on my Daughters Covid Ward.

The instances of jabs for other diseases are to give protection (Yellow Fever etc.). Anyone who refuses the Covid jab will be well aware of the possible consequences if they continue to mix with other people. Someone stated "Don't use companies that insist on proof of a jab", that shows intent to endanger other peoples lives ... and their own. This virus is changing and becoming more transmissable. So please, don't ask me to be sympathetic to non-vaxxers who have their own set of principles that clash with those of the majority. You usually get what you deserve in this life.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> The more people are vaccinated the more we are protected, not from getting covid, but from being serious ill or dying of covid



You're right, I agreed with your last post, until the snip I've quoted. Could you explain what you mean a bit more please?


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## argoose (Jan 30, 2021)

maingate said:


> There are some people in their 30's who would have liked the jab. They are currently living their final few hours on my Daughters Covid Ward.
> 
> The instances of jabs for other diseases are to give protection (Yellow Fever etc.). Anyone who refuses the Covid jab will be well aware of the possible consequences if they continue to mix with other people. Someone stated "Don't use companies that insist on proof of a jab", that shows intent to endanger other peoples lives ... and their own. This virus is changing and becoming more transmissable. So please, don't ask me to be sympathetic to non-vaxxers who have their own set of principles that clash with those of the majority. You usually get what you deserve in this life.


So your saying one part of the population should put themselves at risk for another part of the population?


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

There’s a misconception with the word vaccine, its a vaccine, not a cure the vaccine does not cure covid.

What it does in effect is give you a chemical that your body see’s as an infection, your body sees this as an issue and tells the immune system to fight it off, you then start to make antibodies which fight the infection.

About 2 weeks in (dependant on many factors) your body has produced chemicals that can fight that infection.

So later on when you get Covid-19 your body has developed some immunity, it’s not enough of a defence to stop you getting covid-19 but it’s a heads start to allow you to fight off the worst of it, and stop you getting very ill or dying (just like a flu injection)

Over time you’ll build more and produce more defensive anti bodies, as more and more people build more and more defence there will come a point when the virus no longer survives in our bodies as a serious threat, just a minor irritation, such an example of previous covid is the common cold, this version will end up the same, but simply due to population density and global travel this one will take longer


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> There’s a misconception with the word vaccine, its a vaccine, not a cure the vaccine does not cure covid.
> 
> What it does in effect is give you a chemical that your body see’s as an infection, your body sees this as an issue and tells the immune system to fight it off, you then start to make antibodies which fight the infection.
> 
> ...



Yep, agreed with all that.



Boris7 said:


> The more people are vaccinated the more *we* are protected, not from getting covid, but from being serious ill or dying of covid



The bold bit - Do you mean people who have been vaccinated or those who haven't?


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## izwozral (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.



I'm absolutely gobsmacked that you should want people to put themselves and others at risk by not having the vaccine. The idiots who refuse to let their children have the measles and smallpox vaccine put, not only their kids life in danger, they put their own and the greater population at risk. I see no difference with the covid vaccine.
Some people need common sense and do something for the greater good rather than just for purely selfish reasons.


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## Deleted member 56601 (Jan 30, 2021)

A reminder of Phil's rules, 


Coronavirus posts cannot be *political* and must not be complaining about the actions/decisions of governments or their agencies.
Coronavirus posts cannot *blame* or be *judgmental* to any person or groups of people for the spread of the virus.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)




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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Yep, agreed with all that.
> 
> 
> The bold bit - Do you mean people who have been vaccinated or those who haven't?



neither, wether vacinated or not we will ALL be safer in the long term, would be better if we all got vaccinated and then we would all be better protected sooner, but as long as most of us take the vaccination as soon as we can the sooner this will pass.

But those who don’t will at some point benefit from those who do.


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## yorkslass (Jan 30, 2021)

While we are thankful for the vaccine,, it only offers protection from getting serious symptoms. If it continues to mutate as quickly as it seems to be doing, i think the most vulnerable will have to be vaccinated every year ....just like many do with the flu vaccine.Let's hope that mass vaccination takes away the pressure from NHS staff, they cant be expected to carry on as they are forever.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> But those who don’t will at some point benefit from those who do.



This is the part that I don't think is right (heard immunity in it's correct sense.) At the moment, with the information we have, it seems like you can be vaccinated and still get CV and pass it on. Even at percentages of that, it's not enough to stop it. Consider one person with CV stood in the middle of a circle of, say, 8 people. If half of those can catch it from him, they eventually will. And it will continue until it has been through the whole population.


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

But, with mass vaccine take up they may get covid, but will not die from it and THAT is herd immunity.

we all get the common cold but very few die, exactly the point


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

Oh and if you didn’t think I knew you were reeling me in, then you were wrong


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## TissyD (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.


You are obviously not as old as me then or you would have had them yourself.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> But, with mass vaccine take up they may get covid, but will not die from it and THAT is herd immunity.



NO! Heard immunity mean that enough of the heard CAN NOT pass it on, so it can't spread any more. "They" (unvaccinated I presume?) will still get a full stregth covid passed on to them.

What you need to know about herd immunity | UC Davis


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

So a single university in the US knows more than the WHO and basically every other institution in the world and this from the man who said 


st3v3 said:


> heard immunity doesn't exist full stop.


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## argoose (Jan 30, 2021)

TissyD said:


> You are obviously not as old as me then or you would have had them yourself.


59


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> So a single university in the US knows more than the WHO and basically every other institution in the world and this from the man who said



The link is an example. You've mis-quoted me, I said heard immunity doesn't exist when the vaccine isn't stopping people from passing the virus on.


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The link is an example. You've mis-quoted me, I said heard immunity doesn't exist when the vaccine isn't stopping people from passing the virus on.


I Must have missed that, please feel free to read back though the thread and show me where you said those words


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

#22 ok maybe I misread


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

But herd immunity is still real and still the way out of this mess


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## argoose (Jan 30, 2021)

izwozral said:


> I'm absolutely gobsmacked that you should want people to put themselves and others at risk by not having the vaccine. The idiots who refuse to let their children have the measles and smallpox vaccine put, not only their kids life in danger, they put their own and the greater population at risk. I see no difference with the covid vaccine.
> Some people need common sense and do something for the greater good rather than just for purely selfish reasons.


Having or not having the vaccine was not my point. The shear fact that someone does not have the basic right to decide what is best for them.
Taking away basic human rights is a very dangerous step to take.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> But herd immunity is still real and still the way out of this mess



Herd immunity is real, yes.

Herd immunity MIGHT be a way out of this IF the vaccine STOPS you from still getting and passing on the virus.


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## antiquesam (Jan 30, 2021)

argoose said:


> Having or not having the vaccine was not my point. The shear fact that someone does not have the basic right to decide what is best for them.
> Taking away basic human rights is a very dangerous step to take.


But surely stopping us from associating with friends and relatives, stopping us from traveling and the police stopping vehicles to interrogate them about their travel plans is " taking away our human rights".


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

Guess we will just have to disagree on that, seems we have a difference about herd immunity not the common cause.

But I’m happy that this hasn’t sunken into a political row or personal insults


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## Boris7 (Jan 30, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> But surely stopping us from associating with friends and relatives, stopping us from traveling and the police stopping vehicles to interrogate them about their travel plans is " taking away our human rights".



spoke too soon


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## izwozral (Jan 30, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> spoke too soon




Not at all Boris7, just debate, no politics involved and no one is arguing, no one is falling out. If it is seen otherwise then it really is a sad state of affairs we have come to when we cannot have an open discussion.


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## argoose (Jan 30, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> But surely stopping us from associating with friends and relatives, stopping us from traveling and the police stopping vehicles to interrogate them about their travel plans is " taking away our human rights".


So your saying we should be allowed to travel un hindered and meet whom we want. 
Social distancing and washing hands will stop the spread of covid. Being forced to be vaccinated will not stop the spread of covid.  Vaccination does not stop you contracting covid or transmitting it. It makes your body aware of the virus before you contract it and gives your immune system a head start in fighting the virus. You will still have the virus, but it should be less lethal/debilitating, but you are still infectious.
I would say lockdown is more a civil liberties infringement than a human rights violation. From your not allowed out to your having what we want pumped into your body is a bit of a leap, don't you think?


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## mark61 (Jan 30, 2021)

You lot still ere.
So glad I went out and got pissed.


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## n brown (Jan 30, 2021)

mark61 said:


> You lot still ere.
> So glad I went out and got pissed.


same here but stayed in !


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

mark61 said:


> You lot still ere.
> So glad I went out and got pissed.



Same here, but stayed in.


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## st3v3 (Jan 30, 2021)

lol.

On Zoom quite a good giggle


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## GinaRon (Jan 30, 2021)

a  very good giggle


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## rugbyken (Jan 31, 2021)

i don’t get this whole human rights bit you earn rights you can’t just say f**k you and expect everyone else to say ok ,


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## antiquesam (Jan 31, 2021)

argoose said:


> So your saying we should be allowed to travel un hindered and meet whom we want.
> Social distancing and washing hands will stop the spread of covid. Being forced to be vaccinated will not stop the spread of covid.  Vaccination does not stop you contracting covid or transmitting it. It makes your body aware of the virus before you contract it and gives your immune system a head start in fighting the virus. You will still have the virus, but it should be less lethal/debilitating, but you are still infectious.
> I would say lockdown is more a civil liberties infringement than a human rights violation. From your not allowed out to your having what we want pumped into your body is a bit of a leap, don't you think?


No I'm saying it is a removal of our human rights just as forcing everyone to be vaccinated would be. Whether it should be happening is another question altogether and well away from my pay grade. I'm not sure I understand the difference between Civil liberties and human rights as I always thought one was based on the other.


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## argoose (Jan 31, 2021)

The difference being, with civil liberties you are told what you can do and with human rights it's what they can do to you.
To be vaccinated, or not, has never been the issue of my point. Purely the fact that the right to decided is taken away from an individual. To give that power to a government is an extremely dangerous move to make.


----------



## blights (Jan 31, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> People will still get it the difference is how you will react to it.
> If all the vaccine does is just stop someone having to shove a plastic tube down your throat and keep people off intensive care, That'l do for me.


On a side note that Avatar made me look twice at bottom of screen was gonna squire it till I looked again , gotta get me that . Very good


----------



## antiquesam (Jan 31, 2021)

argoose said:


> The difference being, with civil liberties you are told what you can do and with human rights it's what they can do to you.
> To be vaccinated, or not, has never been the issue of my point. Purely the fact that the right to decided is taken away from an individual. To give that power to a government is an extremely dangerous move to make.


So. If the government make vaccination compulsory, or physically stop you from doing something then that is a human rights issue, but if they provide guidance on ,say, wearing facemasks then that is a civil liberty issue. Have I got that right?


----------



## izwozral (Jan 31, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> So. If the government make vaccination compulsory, or physically stop you from doing something then that is a human rights issue, but if they provide guidance on ,say, wearing facemasks then that is a civil liberty issue. Have I got that right?



Mask wearing on public transport is compulsory, you can be fined for not wearing one without a valid reason, so in this instance it is a human rights issue. 

That's either muddied the waters even further or it has cleared things up.


----------



## izwozral (Jan 31, 2021)

argoose said:


> Having or not having the vaccine was not my point. The shear fact that someone does not have the basic right to decide what is best for them.
> Taking away basic human rights is a very dangerous step to take.




One persons human rights can effect everybody else in a negative way, so the question has to be, does one persons human rights supersede the many?

A case in point: 




__





						Decline in measles vaccination is causing a preventable global resurgence of the disease
					

Decline in measles vaccination is causing a preventable global resurgence of the disease




					www.nih.gov


----------



## argoose (Jan 31, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> So. If the government make vaccination compulsory, or physically stop you from doing something then that is a human rights issue, but if they provide guidance on ,say, wearing facemasks then that is a civil liberty issue. Have I got that right?


Yes, in my mind that's sounds about right. I was reading the other day about the Australian practice of forced sterilisation of certain sections of the population, and thought that is a human rights issue rather than civil liberties. So in my mind if your decision of what happens to your body is taken away then it's a human rights issue.
If a person is jailed for a crime, that's civil liberties, but if they decide their kidney should go to a non criminal, then that would be human rights.


----------



## argoose (Jan 31, 2021)

izwozral said:


> One persons human rights can effect everybody else in a negative way, so the question has to be, does one persons human rights supersede the many?
> 
> A case in point:
> 
> ...


Yes


----------



## Fazerloz (Jan 31, 2021)

Compulsory seat belts, or compulsory face mask there is no difference  you should have been fighting for lost rights a liberties years ago,  You have long missed that bus.


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## trevskoda (Jan 31, 2021)

Anything which saves lives is good so get on with it.


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## mark61 (Jan 31, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> Compulsory seat belts, or compulsory face mask there is no difference  you should have been fighting for lost rights a liberties years ago,  You have long missed that bus.


 
Well I won't be getting in a motor with you then.


----------



## izwozral (Jan 31, 2021)

argoose said:


> Yes



We are going to have to agree to disagree. I am all for personal freedoms but when it comes to world health people need to look beyond themselves and act for the greater good. 
Thanks for the polite debate.

All done in the best possible taste.


----------



## Chrisinchip (Jan 31, 2021)

In civilised societies there are laws/regulations which restrict our individual choices where there is significant benefit to our society. It could be argued that a compulsory vaccine would be a case in point where it indisputably an override on individual choice but highly desirable from a societal perspective. 

I absolutely agree with the OP. 
We can never vaccinate the whole population. Notwithstanding those who put individual choice above societal responsibility, there are those who cannot receive the vaccine for medical reasons. Factor in virus mutations and we are left with a situation similar to ‘flu which is a significant killer, except COVID seems to have a long term affect on a small, but significant proportion of fit under 60s. All amounts to another stretch on our already overstretched medical and care services; as a consequence we will also see an increase in death from other diseases like cancer due to lack of timely treatment. 

Whilst the vaccine will hopefully alleviate the current unsustainably acute situation, I don’t see it getting us completely off the Coronavirus hook.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jan 31, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Well I won't be getting in a motor with you then.



And that would be your choice. No rights or liberties abused here then.


----------



## mark61 (Jan 31, 2021)

Compulsory vaccination to save the NHS. What next, illegal to smoke, eat red meat, not do any exercise, do too much exercise, do any contact sport, etc.

I also note that people in favour of either compulsory vaccination or the denial of freedoms to those that choose not to get vaccinated are in the cohort of those who benefit most from it.


----------



## colinm (Jan 31, 2021)

Chrisinchip said:


> except COVID seems to have a long term affect on a small, but significant proportion of fit under 60s.



Nobody knows the long term effects on those that have had CV-19, I didn't know how it had (possibly) effected me until I had blood tests unrelated to CV-19, I think there will be a whole load of people finding out they are diabetic, or have heart disease in future years.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Jan 31, 2021)

colinm said:


> Nobody knows the long term effects on those that have had CV-19, I didn't know how it had (possibly) effected me until I had blood tests unrelated to CV-19, I think there will be a whole load of people finding out they are diabetic, or have heart disease in future years.



Agree.

I have a very good friend who was more or less fighting fit at the start of last year.
Now she can barely function physically and might be lucky to have one 'normal-ish' day out of 14 when she feels a bit better - and that's only if she doesn't move out of a chair too much!

The impact on her has been shocking.


----------



## trixie88 (Jan 31, 2021)

yorkslass said:


> While we are thankful for the vaccine,, it only offers protection from getting serious symptoms. If it continues to mutate as quickly as it seems to be doing, i think the most vulnerable will have to be vaccinated every year ....just like many do with the flu vaccine.Let's hope that mass vaccination takes away the pressure from NHS staff, they cant be expected to carry on as they are forever.



exactly sue.......if it keeps folk out of hospital...thats a BIG POSITIVE........hospitals will then be able to operate normally...
...CANCER PATIENTS will bne able to receive life threatening treatment.....along with all the other folk who are awaiting operations/treatment etc...
.....and as you state  TAKE THE PRESSURE OF DOCS AND NURSES and others in NHS.....they have families to considered too....
..they are very brave working in the COVID WARDS......it must be a tremendous strain on them both physically and mentally........
.


----------



## antiquesam (Jan 31, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Compulsory vaccination to save the NHS. What next, illegal to smoke, eat red meat, not do any exercise, do too much exercise, do any contact sport, etc.
> 
> I also note that people in favour of either compulsory vaccination or the denial of freedoms to those that choose not to get vaccinated are in the cohort of those who benefit most from it.


 Haven't we already got to the position of the NHS denying treatment to smokers and the obese. 
I'm not sure of who this cohort of pro and anti vaxxers that will benefit either way.


----------



## izwozral (Jan 31, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Haven't we already got to the position of the NHS denying treatment to smokers and the obese.
> I'm not sure of who this cohort of pro and anti vaxxers that will benefit either way.



*Smokers* and obese people are already being *denied* operations such as IVF, breast reconstructions and a new hip or knee in some parts of *England*. The medical magazine Pulse last month found that 25 of 91 primary *care* trusts (PCTs) had introduced *treatment* bans for those groups since April 2011. 

NHS resources saved by those who do not help themselves. Everyone a winner!


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 31, 2021)

Our friend had some massive growth in her face (non cancer.) They wouldn't even book her operation to have it removed until she lost weight.

This was 2019/early 2020 IIRC


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 31, 2021)

TBF @mariesnowgoose , she's a changed woman now. Well into running, awards from fat club (as she calls it) etc. She's lost Louise in weight lol


----------



## colinm (Jan 31, 2021)

With close on 30% of UK population classed as obese, this would drastically cut waiting times, but it's not the complete story.
IIRC a BMI of above 35 is considered a high risk of complications when using general anaesthetic, not 30 which is obese. Therefore patients over 35 BMI are asked to lose weight before any surgery.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 31, 2021)

colinm said:


> With close on 30% of UK population classed as obese, this would drastically cut waiting times, but it's not the complete story.
> IIRC a BMI of above 35 is considered a high risk of complications when using general anaesthetic, not 30 which is obese. Therefore patients over 35 BMI are asked to lose weight before any surgery.



I was just really annoyed they wouldn't even book it. She still had a 2 month wait after loosing the weight. The target date would help a lot if people focus on the diet I would have thought.


----------



## colinm (Jan 31, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I was just really annoyed they wouldn't even book it. She still had a 2 month wait after loosing the weight. The target date would help a lot if people focus on the diet I would have thought.


With a lot of areas policy is 'you loose weight, then we book you in', for non life threatening conditions I see no problem with that. IMO it gives a big incentive to loose the weight, and NHS has enough problems with people not attending and cancelling operations without having to make and cancel for those who don't loose weight. N.B. this is only for those whose weight poses increased risks of complications from surgery.
p.s. a friend of mine was put on hip waiting list, but before an actual date for operation was set he had to be weighed to ensure he had lost weight, in this case the waiting list was around 6 to 8 months.


----------



## campervanannie (Jan 31, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> TBF @mariesnowgoose , she's a changed woman now. Well into running, awards from fat club (as she calls it) etc. She's lost Louise in weight lol


Well that’s doesn’t say much what’s Louise for those that don’t know her she is a few stone dripping wet.


----------



## Minisorella (Jan 31, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> This is the part that I don't think is right (heard immunity in it's correct sense.) At the moment, with the information we have, it seems like you can be vaccinated and still get CV and pass it on. Even at percentages of that, it's not enough to stop it. Consider one person with CV stood in the middle of a circle of, say, 8 people. If half of those can catch it from him, they eventually will. And it will continue until it has been through the whole population.


I don't believe we'll ever be rid of this virus and subsequent mutations. The most important thing to bear in mind is that all those who are vaccinated are highly unlikely to have severe disease or die from COVID. Those who aren't vaccinated won't have this 'almost' guarantee but it's their choice. The common cold is a member of the coronavirus family and we all get colds and know we can pass them on but we don't fear them... although some people will go on to get mucus related bacterial infections that can cause them severe illness and even death. Same with 'flu... a different virus family but we all know we can get it and pass it on, so the most vulnerable will be vaccinated each year with a cumulative cocktail of all known strains because it's easily more serious than a cold and can kill. If COVID continues to circulate, a routine updated vaccination will likely be added to everyone's calendar, so that life can carry on in the same way... we'll all still know that we can get it but we won't fear it.

One thought. I always resented it when people insisted on coming into work with streaming colds on the basis 'it's just a cold'. If this pandemic has taught us anything it's that one person's 'sniffles' is another person's stay in ICU. I wonder if we'll be more aware in future of the selfishness of sharing germs and adopt the practice of many other countries of routinely wearing masks as a courtesy when we're ill but still out and about? I hope so - but doubt it.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jan 31, 2021)

Maybe the bean counters and policy makers need to re read the NHS Constitution and principles.
*Principles that guide the NHS*
Seven key principles guide the NHS in all it does. They are underpinned by core NHS values which have been derived from extensive discussions with staff, patients and the public. These values are set out in the next section of this document.
*1. The NHS provides a comprehensive service, available to all*

That includes the overweight and the smokers. Not just those that manage to get ticks in the right boxes for treatment.


----------



## antiquesam (Jan 31, 2021)

I've just been reading an article comparing the attitude to the Spanish Flu epidemic and to Covid. 288,000 dead in two peaks with people going out to do some shopping and falling dead in the street. The first peak came in wartime so safe distancing and working from home was out of the question. There were no memorials to the dead or national mourning. I suppose death was more visible in those days. 1 in 4 babies born dead, and 10% of those not surviving past four years old. Thousands of tuberculosis deaths and average life span of men was 40 and women 50. We really aren't that badly off in my mind.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jan 31, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I've just been reading an article comparing the attitude to the Spanish Flu epidemic and to Covid. 288,000 dead in two peaks with people going out to do some shopping and falling dead in the street. The first peak came in wartime so safe distancing and working from home was out of the question. There were no memorials to the dead or national mourning. I suppose death was more visible in those days. 1 in 4 babies born dead, and 10% of those not surviving past four years old. Thousands of tuberculosis deaths and average life span of men was 40 and women 50. We really aren't that badly off in my mind.



Do you think vaccines could have a contribution to the fact we now live a little longer than 40/50.


----------



## mark61 (Jan 31, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> Do you think vaccines could have a contribution to the fact we now live a little longer than 40/50.


Not by as much as some may think. 
The biggest contributor to the increased average is more children reaching adulthood.


----------



## antiquesam (Jan 31, 2021)

Better food, better housing and penicillin.


----------



## sparrks (Jan 31, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> Do you think vaccines could have a contribution to the fact we now live a little longer than 40/50.


I think it's widely accepted that far better sanitation and greatly improved drinking water has had the greatest impact on life expectancy.


----------



## TissyD (Jan 31, 2021)

argoose said:


> 59


You are not too far behind then. They may have finished giving them by the time you started school. My OH is 64 and she had them.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jan 31, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Not by as much as some may think.
> The biggest contributor to the increased average is more children reaching adulthood.





sparrks said:


> I think it's widely accepted that far better sanitation and greatly improved drinking water has had the greatest impact on life expectancy.



The biggest contributor to the increased average is more children reaching adulthood.
[/QUOTE]

 I wasn't and didn't say vaccines were the largest factor but only asked if vaccines could have had a contribution. As the OP is about vaccines.


----------



## argoose (Jan 31, 2021)

TissyD said:


> You are not too far behind then. They may have finished giving them by the time you started school. My OH is 64 and she had them.


I was an Army brat, I was 16 before i stayed in the same country for more than three years. We had barrages of inoculations every time we moved. When we were posted to Malaya we had to have, what my farther called our Bob Martins, quinine tablets once a day six months before we went, every day we were there and for six months on our return to temperate climes. At sixteen I joined up and continued inoculations when posted to Hong Kong.
Years later, After a break up of my marriage, I was left with a large debt to clear. I was working 90 hours a week but still needed more money, so for about ten years all my holidays were spent doing drug trials in Simbec to keep the wolf from the door.
Times have changed, I'm with a cracking partner now, we both love getting away in Hollie ( motorhome). We both know how precious time is and both love making new memories in new places. Fair play, we have a laugh wherever we go.


----------



## yorkieowl (Jan 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> I don't believe we'll ever be rid of this virus and subsequent mutations. The most important thing to bear in mind is that all those who are vaccinated are highly unlikely to have severe disease or die from COVID. Those who aren't vaccinated won't have this 'almost' guarantee but it's their choice. The common cold is a member of the coronavirus family and we all get colds and know we can pass them on but we don't fear them... although some people will go on to get mucus related bacterial infections that can cause them severe illness and even death. Same with 'flu... a different virus family but we all know we can get it and pass it on, so the most vulnerable will be vaccinated each year with a cumulative cocktail of all known strains because it's easily more serious than a cold and can kill. If COVID continues to circulate, a routine updated vaccination will likely be added to everyone's calendar, so that life can carry on in the same way... we'll all still know that we can get it but we won't fear it.
> 
> One thought. I always resented it when people insisted on coming into work with streaming colds on the basis 'it's just a cold'. If this pandemic has taught us anything it's that one person's 'sniffles' is another person's stay in ICU. I wonder if we'll be more aware in future of the selfishness of sharing germs and adopt the practice of many other countries of routinely wearing masks as a courtesy when we're ill but still out and about? I hope so - but doubt it.


What a great post.  I too don’t think we will ever be rid of C-19, it will just be another virus we will have to learn to live with, but hopefully the vaccines can keep up with any mutations. 
I know personally we will now be much more conscious of close contact with others, when -if- we ever get get back to some form of normality, and I think we will see mask wearing continue by some, I know we probably will. 
I’ve just finished a book on women and childbirth from 1900-1950,  made quite harrowing reading, some babes starving to death as parents couldn’t afford to feed them, mothers dying in childbirth as they couldn’t afford a doctor, life expectancy very low,  we are so fortunate today even with this pandemic that our temporary loss of freedoms pales into insignificance.


----------



## yorkslass (Jan 31, 2021)

yorkieowl said:


> What a great post.  I too don’t think we will ever be rid of C-19, it will just be another virus we will have to learn to live with, but hopefully the vaccines can keep up with any mutations.
> I know personally we will now be much more conscious of close contact with others, when -if- we ever get get back to some form of normality, and I think we will see mask wearing continue by some, I know we probably will.
> I’ve just finished a book on women and childbirth from 1900-1950,  made quite harrowing reading, some babes starving to death as parents couldn’t afford to feed them, mothers dying in childbirth as they couldn’t afford a doctor, life expectancy very low,  we are so fortunate today even with this pandemic that our temporary loss of freedoms pales into insignificance.


One of the antique programmes was fiming in Saltaire and talking about about the building of the town. They said when building started, around 1850 i think they said, the life expectancy in Bradford was 18 and a half years and 50% of children never made it beyond 15 years.


----------



## witzend (Feb 1, 2021)

argoose said:


> Absolutely gobsmacked. No one should be forced to have something injected into their bodies against their will.


It ought to be made clear to them that If they don't have the vaccine when offered they shouldn't be allowed a bed in intensive care if theres someone there who has tried to help them selves by having the Vaccine that needs it


----------



## colinm (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> It ought to be made clear to them that If they don't have the vaccine when offered they shouldn't be allowed a bed in intensive care if theres someone there who has tried to help them selves by having the Vaccine that needs it


I'm a great believer that everyone should have the vaccine, but once you start on descrimetry treatment you are on a slippery slope. After all take those bikers who crash, we all know motorcycling is more dangerous than being in a car, should we leave them on the side of the road? And lets not forget 100 y.o.'s who go on international holidays and contract respitory diseases, should they be excluded?


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

Folk need to let go the fear and bring in some compassion.


----------



## campervanannie (Feb 1, 2021)

colinm said:


> I'm a great believer that everyone should have the vaccine, but once you start on descrimetry treatment you are on a slippery slope. After all take those bikers who crash, we all know motorcycling is more dangerous than being in a car, should we leave them on the side of the road? And lets not forget 100 y.o.'s who go on international holidays and contract respitory diseases, should they be excluded?


Surely those you have used as an example in your post will have adequate insurance that covers medical expenses unfortunately the people who may get discriminated against are the obese and smokers to name a couple and I’m not sure you can get fat insurance but I do believe the Tobacco/cigarette and companies that advertised them maybe should be putting money into the NHS to cover costs.


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## mark61 (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Folk need to let go the fear and bring in some compassion.



Can't see that happening. it's compulsory to be frightened, it would seem.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

campervanannie said:


> Surely those you have used as an example in your post will have adequate insurance that covers medical expenses unfortunately the people who may get discriminated against are the obese and smokers to name a couple and I’m not sure you can get fat insurance but I do believe the Tobacco/cigarette and companies that advertised them maybe should be putting money into the NHS to cover costs.



Careful...  heading into "p" territory, and I don't mean the stuff you put in sample bottles... 

Mind you, by the same token McDonald's should have to do the same as tobacco companies


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Can't see that happening. it's compulsory to be frightened, it would seem.



... and selfish...


----------



## mark61 (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> ... and selfish...


 Thats optional.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Thats optional.



Maybe...


----------



## Tookey (Feb 1, 2021)

In my mind civil liberties have been eroded because we have restricted people based on the assumption that they might be guilty (covid carrier).

I am in agreement with all the civil liberties that we have lost due to the circumstances but to introduce restrictive laws on an individual based on what they MIGHT do (transmit) is a debatable point. 

Wearing a mask on public transport does not erode liberty as you can still achieve your goal, same as seat belts and not carrying a large knife, it does not prevent you from 'carrying on'. Preventing you from seeing family on the other hand because of something you might do is a very different matter. 

I think it is wise if I repeat that I am in favour of present restrictions due to circumstances.


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## colinm (Feb 1, 2021)

campervanannie said:


> Surely those you have used as an example in your post will have adequate insurance that covers medical expenses unfortunately the people who may get discriminated against are the obese and smokers to name a couple and I’m not sure you can get fat insurance but I do believe the Tobacco/cigarette and companies that advertised them maybe should be putting money into the NHS to cover costs.


'witzend' was proposing discrimination for emergency treatment, no obese person or smoker is denied emergency treatment.


----------



## witzend (Feb 1, 2021)

colinm said:


> 'witzend' was proposing discrimination for emergency treatment, no obese person or smoker is denied emergency treatment.


What I proposed is that if 2 people both need the last ventilator in the hospital the one which refused the Vaccine should come 2nd


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

I just love to read the posts here on my tablet.


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## TeamRienza (Feb 1, 2021)

I’m sitting here with my iPad Trev. What happened to the solidarity between Ulstermen against the rest of the world. ?

Davy


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## colinm (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> What I proposed is that if 2 people both need the last ventilator in the hospital the one which refused the Vaccine should come 2nd


How about if the antivaccer is a otherwise fit and healthy person, whilst the one who had vaccination is obese and/or diabetic due to lifestyle choices? Suddenly making descrimatory choices become very complicated.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> What I proposed is that if 2 people both need the last ventilator in the hospital the one which refused the Vaccine should come 2nd



A horrible position to be in and a horrible decision to make.

I wouldn't want to live with my conscience either way.

Tossing a coin might seem trite, but that would at least be in the hands of fate, rather than a decision based on dubious discrimination.


----------



## campervanannie (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Folk need to let go the fear and bring in some compassion.


Fear is good it makes you careful.


----------



## Farman (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> What I proposed is that if 2 people both need the last ventilator in the hospital the one which refused the Vaccine should come 2nd


If they have had the vaccine and it is efficient, then why would they be needing the ventilator in the first place?


----------



## campervanannie (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> A horrible position to be in and a horrible decision to make.
> 
> I wouldn't want to live with my conscience either way.
> 
> Tossing a coin might seem trite, but that would at least be in the hands of fate, rather than a decision based on dubious discrimination.


I think frontline workers have had to make these sort of decisions for a long time and long before a pandemic on things like if there are more than one match who gets the heart transplant, who gets the liver .


----------



## Haaamster (Feb 1, 2021)

colinm said:


> How about if the antivaccer is a otherwise fit and healthy person, whilst the one who had vaccination is obese and/or diabetic due to lifestyle choices? Suddenly making descrimatory choices become very complicated.


What if the smoker was the bestest person that ever lived and had cured cancer and that and the other was a Tony Blair type


----------



## campervanannie (Feb 1, 2021)

colinm said:


> 'witzend' was proposing discrimination for emergency treatment, no obese person or smoker is denied emergency treatment.


Not yet !


----------



## colinm (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> If they have had the vaccine and it is efficient, then why would they be needing the ventilator in the first place?


The vaccine is not 100% guarantee that you will not get CV-19, or indeed die from CV-19, the first known death of someone from CV-19 who had the vaccine was in December.


----------



## Farman (Feb 1, 2021)

colinm said:


> The vaccine is not 100% guarantee that you will not get CV-19, or indeed die from CV-19, the first known death of someone from CV-19 who had the vaccine was in December.


I know that it has no guarantee. That is where choice comes into it. One person chooses to take the risk that the vaccine might work. One person might take the risk that it won't work.
Neither person being worse than the other. Both just making a choice.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> I know that it has no guarantee. That is where choice comes into it. One person chooses to take the risk that the vaccine might work. One person might take the risk that it won't work.
> Neither person being worse than the other. Both just making a choice.



The trouble is, choosing to not take it, because it might not work, will impact other people and the resources of the NHS if you do catch CV.


----------



## witzend (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> A horrible position to be in and a horrible decision to make. I wouldn't want to live with my conscience either way.
> Tossing a coin might seem trite, but that would at least be in the hands of fate, rather than a decision based on dubious discrimination.


But Doctors Do have to make that decision and have to base it on contributing factors  like did he do all he could to avoid being here


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## Farman (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The trouble is, choosing to not take it, because it might not work, will impact other people and the resources of the NHS if you do catch CV.


So the person that has chosen the vaccine and now needs the ventilator has no impact?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> So the person that has chosen the vaccine and now needs the ventilator has no impact?



No impact that they could have *chosen* to avoid, no. I.e. they made choices to do all they could to not end up in ICU.


----------



## Farman (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> No impact that they could have *chosen* to avoid, no.


Not everyone that makes the choice not to have the vaccine will have an impact because most will not end up in hospital. Just as those that have chosen to take the vaccine will not all end up outwith the hospital.
No guarantees. Therefore choices should still be respected while we still have a few left.
However if it was guaranteed the vaccine will fix the problem, then that would make this a totally different discussion..
It would be selfish, uncaring and not very sensible to refuse.


----------



## tidewatcher (Feb 1, 2021)

In the practical world nothing is guaranteed to fix the problem. The point is the vaccine is by far the best _option_  available to make the most impact on the problem. To not take up the best _option_ available is an odd decision given the alternatives not only to the individuals possible health outcome but also to the opening up of the economy and our "freedoms".......


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## wildebus (Feb 1, 2021)

Haaamster said:


> What if the smoker was the bestest person that ever lived and had cured cancer and that and the other was a Tony Blair type


All this talk about who gets the last bed, etc reminds me of the type of interviews that Microsoft do (or at least did back in the 90's/00's) - cavern filling up, only can rescue one person out of the two left.  And ballon sinking and need to loose some weight to save everyone on board - who do you throw overboard?
Don't know the right answer as after being asked the same questions by three different interviewers the same day told the last one they need to co-ordinate better  (didn't get the job funnily enough  ).


----------



## Haaamster (Feb 1, 2021)

wildebus said:


> All this talk about who gets the last bed, etc reminds me of the type of interviews that Microsoft do (or at least did back in the 90's/00's) - cavern filling up, only can rescue one person out of the two left.  And ballon sinking and need to loose some weight to save everyone on board - who do you throw overboard?
> Don't know the right answer as after being asked the same questions by three different interviewers the same day told the last one they need to co-ordinate better  (didn't get the job funnily enough  ).


The one who didn't have the injection


----------



## yorkslass (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> Not everyone that makes the choice not to have the vaccine will have an impact because most will not end up in hospital. Just as those that have chosen to take the vaccine will not all end up outwith the hospital.
> No guarantees. Therefore choices should still be respected while we still have a few left.
> However if it was guaranteed the vaccine will fix the problem, then that would make this a totally different discussion..
> It would be selfish, uncaring and not very sensible to refuse.


I'm struggling to accept how some care workers have refused the vaccine....allegedly 20%. They are looking after the most vulnerable, but at the same time go home to their families. I don't see how that fits in with a caring ethos.
Something else I don't understand......they go into the homes everyday, but many of the same homes won't let a family member in to visit a loved one.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 1, 2021)

yorkslass said:


> I'm struggling to accept how some care workers have refused the vaccine....allegedly 20%. They are looking after the most vulnerable, but at the same time go home to their families. I don't see how that fits in with a caring ethos.
> Something else I don't understand......they go into the homes everyday, but many of the same homes won't let a family member in to visit a loved one.



If it wasn't for the fact there would be a shortage of staff, I would sack those that don't have the jab without a valid reason.

As for the last point Sue, I don't understand it either, it is a very warped logic that came up with that idea.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 1, 2021)

The people staying in care homes and their families should insist they do not want staff who haven't had the vaccine near them. The thought they might lose their jobs could well change their mind.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> The people staying in care homes and their families should insist they do not want staff who haven't had the vaccine near them. The thought they might lose their jobs could well change their mind.



I agree 100%

Residents in care homes need to be looked after by other people, often close and personal contact is required.

Therefore a no brainer. Vaccine or don't do this job.

But, as stated elsewhere, massive shortage of carers.
A catch 22 situation?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> Not everyone ...........



If you have had the vaccine and end up in ICU with CV is there anything you could have chosen to do differently to avoid that?

No.

If you don't have the vaccine and end up in ICU with CV is there anything you could have chosen to do differently to try and avoid that?

Yes, you could have chosen to take the vaccine. That's the difference.

You seem to have some weird reason to not have the vaccine.



> However if it was guaranteed the vaccine will fix the problem, then that would make this a totally different discussion..



I'm not convinced you'd have a different view. But hey ho.



yorkslass said:


> They are looking after the most vulnerable, but at the same time go home to their families. I don't see how that fits in with a caring ethos.





izwozral said:


> If it wasn't for the fact there would be a shortage of staff, I would sack those that don't have the jab without a valid reason.





Fazerloz said:


> The people staying in care homes and their families should insist they do not want staff who haven't had the vaccine near them. The thought they might lose their jobs could well change their mind.



Current thinking is that you can be vaccinated and still get the virus, and still pass it on. All the vaccine does is stop you getting ill. So staff having it makes no difference to the risk to the residents.

I actually think the opposite, it's wrong that we are vaccinating young healthy people ahead of older CEV people.


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## mark61 (Feb 1, 2021)

izwozral said:


> If it wasn't for the fact there would be a shortage of staff, I would sack those that don't have the jab without a valid reason.
> 
> As for the last point Sue, I don't understand it either, it is a very warped logic that came up with that idea.


Why not those with a valid reason?


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## Fazerloz (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> If you have had the vaccine and end up in ICU with CV is there anything you could have chosen to do differently to avoid that?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


No but it makes more get the vaccine.


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## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> No but it makes more get the vaccine.



How?


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## sparrks (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> What I proposed is that if 2 people both need the last ventilator in the hospital the one which refused the Vaccine should come 2nd


The person with the greatest chance of survival should get the 'only' ventilator


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## izwozral (Feb 1, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Why not those with a valid reason?



Because it would be in breach of the Equality Act.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Why not those with a valid reason?



Good point.
But one which will be invalidated if it's eventually proven that the vaccination can also reduce the risk of disease transmission from the vaccinated person.
However, the jury is still waiting on a verdict for that one.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Good point.
> But one which will be invalidated if it's eventually proven that the vaccination can also reduce the risk of disease transmission from the vaccinated person.
> However, the jury is still waiting on a verdict for that one.


Exactly.
If/when we get to that point. Until that point, it's probably against the equality act.


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

campervanannie said:


> Fear is good it makes you careful.


Your right as today I was wiring up my new 10 k/watt electric shower to a live terminal without switching off the power, I felt like a ww2 bomb disposal officer.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 1, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Good point.
> But one which will be invalidated if it's eventually proven that the vaccination can also reduce the risk of disease transmission from the vaccinated person.
> However, the jury is still waiting on a verdict for that one.





			https://media2.giphy.com/media/f9wXBdNOtvP0RiSzwh/200.gif


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## izwozral (Feb 1, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Exactly.
> If/when we get to that point. Until that point, it's probably against the equality act.





			https://media.tenor.com/images/a6ab039b41a4a48b4a7aada0a3b3d3f5/tenor.gif


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

AS for care workers getting the vaccine, sure they can still pass the c/19 on, it just stops them getting it as bad.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> How?



If it came down to a choice of job or vaccine I think many would then choose to have the vaccine like they would if it was the difference between been able to board a plane for hols or not.


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## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Your right as today I was wiring up my new 10 k/watt electric shower to a live terminal without switching off the power, I felt like a ww2 bomb disposal officer.



Why would you not turn it off ????


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> If it came down to a choice of job or vaccine I think many would then choose to have the vaccine like they would if it was the difference between been able to board a plane for hols or not.



Ok. You'll be pleased to hear most of them I know of are having/had it anyway.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 1, 2021)

campervanannie said:


> Fear is good it makes you careful.



Survival of the fittest


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Why would you not turn it off ????


My son was on xbox and wife cooking, doing so is cert death, anyway as not touching any earth and only slipping the red into the box and tighten the scree its ok, when the lecky board changed my mani fuse the chap worked it live, he just said to touch me when touching any earth and its ok, remember the birds sitting on live power lines, just dont tell them.


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## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> My son was on xbox and wife cooking, doing so is cert death, anyway as not touching any earth and only slipping the red into the box and tighten the scree its ok, when the lecky board changed my mani fuse the chap worked it live, he just said to touch me when touching any earth and its ok, remember the birds sitting on live power lines, just dont tell them.



Shower and sockets on different circuits surely?


----------



## wildebus (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Shower and sockets on different circuits surely?


It's ok, they fit these special breakers in NI anyway .....


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

Yes i had to connect the new trip to 3 black boxes which are on the tails coming out of the meter, these tails have 3 spaces in them for a gen and stuff like a new trip box as mine, double fuse/trip, one for shower 63amp and one 32a for garage, garage was orig fitted to the old style fuse box to which i will be changing down the line.


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## maingate (Feb 1, 2021)

When do you expect your first Cannabis crop Trev.

You didn't expect us to believe it was for a shower did you?


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## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Yes i had to connect the new trip to 3 black boxes which are on the tails coming out of the meter, these tails have 3 spaces in them for a gen and stuff like a new trip box as mine, double fuse/trip, one for shower 63amp and one 32a for garage, garage was orig fitted to the old style fuse box to which i will be changing down the line.View attachment 92287View attachment 92288View attachment 92289



OK, so you were connecting a new consumer unit, I understand. I hope you've got a fireproof grommet in the bottom 

Your tails look thin too...


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## Brockley (Feb 1, 2021)

I live in a pretty small isolated community, an island nation, a bit like mainland U.K. but lots smaller. We first went into lockdown in March 2019. Strict travel restrictions were put in place (both in and out). We came out of lockdown in June 2019.

My son and daughter in law came home to live because of the freedom and had to quarantine for 14 days in a rented flat at their own expense and guess what, they were checked up on. We had to drop groceries to their door. Because we have our own government, emergency powers were implemented to tighten up border control.

All terrible stuff, big brother dictating what we can and cannot do, civil liberties and human rights trampled all over (some might say). My best guess is that our prison has locked up well over 20 idiots since last March who thought their selfish needs outweighed the safety of our community. Most got 4 weeks inside in solitary confinement. As you might expect, the more clued up of these numpties got lawyers involved and claimed breach of human rights because of their solitary confinement. Ever selfish and without concern for the safety of other prisoners, their families, staff or their families! The U.K. media loved it and mostly distortorted facts. All cases thrown out because human rights work both ways....... thankfully.

Our government decided to implement a circuit break lockdown three weeks ago when community cases were identified (won’t point the finger), but today we have gained our freedom again after a total lockdown, all restrictions lifted and we can now visit son and daughter in law as well as heavily pregnant daughter and partner. 

My point is that community spirit does still exist and sometimes harsh measures are warranted to protect exactly that. It’s a real pity that policing in many parts of the U.K. has been seduced by recent political movements intent on deflecting news and getting away with breaking the law.

Oh and by the way, both Pfizer vaccinated and feeling fine.

The only thing I’ll be trying to break this year is the new lithium system...lol


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> OK, so you were connecting a new consumer unit, I understand. I hope you've got a fireproof grommet in the bottom
> 
> Your tails look thin too...


6mm rated to 63amps, my shower uses 44ah leaving me 19ah for garage if used together, but i will never be using both together and am covered for the 60% rule.


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## st3v3 (Feb 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> 6mm rated to 63amps, my shower uses 44ah leaving me 19ah for garage if used together, but i will never be using both together and am covered for the 60% rule.View attachment 92295View attachment 92296



Jesus. That has to be 25mm2 here, irrespective of what it's feeding. The reason being, the main distributor fuse is often 100A and the cables need to be able to handle that in the event of a fault.


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## witzend (Feb 1, 2021)

Farman said:


> It would be selfish, uncaring and not very sensible to refuse.


Exactly now you got it


----------



## Brockley (Feb 1, 2021)

witzend said:


> Exactly now you got it


Everyone has choice, but all deflection aside, everyone pulling together and doing exactly what is needed for the common good actually does work. I‘m too young to remember the second world war, but not too old to have forgotten what was needed for the common good during that time. Correct, no guarantee, just facts, use them and be safe. More importantly, help make others safe.


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## 2cv (Feb 1, 2021)

Brockley said:


> Everyone has choice, but all deflection aside, everyone pulling together and doing exactly what is needed for the common good actually does work. I‘m too young to remember the second world war, but not too old to have forgotten what was needed for the common good during that time. Correct, no guarantee, just facts, use them and be safe. More importantly, help make others safe.



Your island has undoubtedly got it right. UK could have done it but no real effort put into it and far too many who think that rules only apply to others and they can make up their own safety. Hotel quarantine and jail for rule breakers are the only way to the position that you are in. Enjoy your amazing freedom as you emerge from lockdown.


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## Tim120 (Feb 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Yes i had to connect the new trip to 3 black boxes which are on the tails coming out of the meter, these tails have 3 spaces in them for a gen and stuff like a new trip box as mine, double fuse/trip, one for shower 63amp and one 32a for garage, garage was orig fitted to the old style fuse box to which i will be changing down the line.View attachment 92287View attachment 92288View attachment 92289



Looks like your meter is connected 

Edit:- Sorry started reading from the last page first.


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## trevskoda (Feb 1, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Jesus. That has to be 25mm2 here, irrespective of what it's feeding. The reason being, the main distributor fuse is often 100A and the cables need to be able to handle that in the event of a fault.


Its a sub box and not the main one of which is feed by big fat cables for all the other house stuff, look at the picture again.


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## Haaamster (Feb 2, 2021)

Looks like Scotland are hoarding half their stock of vaccines.








						Half of Scotland’s Covid vaccine allocation lying in storage
					

Nearly half of Scotland’s vaccines are still sitting in cold storage as delivery continues to lag behind nearly every other region of the UK, the Scottish secretary has confirmed.




					www.thetimes.co.uk


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## tidewatcher (Feb 2, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Its a sub box and not the main one of which is feed by big fat cables for all the other house stuff, look at the picture again.


This is all well and good but I am a little concerned about the fireproof grommet in his bottom that was talked about earlier. The vindaloo paradox?


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## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Its a sub box and not the main one of which is feed by big fat cables for all the other house stuff, look at the picture again.



Let's say your new box gets a short inside it between live and neutral. How much current will flow through your 6mm cables?


----------



## Pedalman (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on.
> 
> So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.
> 
> ...



The people who refuse the vaccine will make a seriously wrong survival decision.  If they have a bad reaction to the covid19 virus, within 28 days they could be wild camping in the sky.   It's their choice.


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on.
> 
> So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.
> 
> ...


There is not a single drop of scientific proof in this opinion, it is based entirely on social media here say. This is the sort of ignorant gossip that gets people killed. What would be the point of having a vaccination if it didn't stop replication of the virus within the human body? And if it can't replicate then how would the body be able to build up a viral load that would make the person contagious? There has to be a substantial amount of virus  expelled into the atmosphere in order for it to spread. If this wasn't true then we would all be dead by now.


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## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> There is not a single drop of scientific proof in this opinion, it is based entirely on social media here say.



I'm not one for facebook etc. Jon.

Hopefully a .gov source is good enough for you?



> Can you give COVID-19 to anyone if you have had the vaccine?
> 
> The vaccine cannot give you COVID-19 infection, and a full course will reduce your chance of becoming seriously ill. *We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus,* but we do expect it to reduce this risk.



From  What to expect after your COVID-19 vaccination - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)



> This is the sort of ignorant gossip that gets people killed. What would be the point of having a vaccination if it didn't stop replication of the virus within the human body?



The point is because the vaccine has been shown to reduce the effects CV has on you.

I don't think you've really read my post, I'm in favour of having the vaccine.


----------



## REC (Feb 2, 2021)

Astor zenica just produced research which shows 60% less likely to pass covid on to others. Looks good, hopefully the other ones will be able to show figures soon.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

colinm said:


> 'witzend' was proposing discrimination for emergency treatment, no obese person or smoker is denied emergency treatment.


When you say emergency


st3v3 said:


> I'm not one for facebook etc. Jon.
> 
> Hopefully a .gov source is good enough for you?
> 
> ...


I'm confused. You started your earlier post by stating that the vaccine won't stop you getting Covid or passing it on and then quote a government website that states that they do not yet know whether the vaccine will stop you getting it or passing it on.
One of those statements is incorrect. Is it yours or the government's?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I'm confused. You started your earlier post by stating that the vaccine won't stop you getting Covid or passing it on and then quote a government website that states that they do not yet know whether the vaccine will stop you getting it or passing it on.
> One of those statements is incorrect. Is it yours or the government's?



For some time the vaccine makers have been saying they don't know, and then moved on to partial reduction. The Gov are waiting it out and effectively telling people they still need to isolate,SD, mask That's the right thing for them to publish until they know for sure otherwise.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Let's say your new box gets a short inside it between live and neutral. How much current will flow through your 6mm cables?


It will blow the main fuse in an instant, I get where you are coming from but I have ask at my electric wholesalers and they said its ok, and the trip will fire if it shorts which I dought very much as I have used grommets at point of entry, when I install my new main unit it will have 100ah 10mm or higher  cables


----------



## campervanannie (Feb 2, 2021)

Am I in some sort of twilight zone one minute your vaccines and te next van electrics, oh I’m off for a lie down.


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## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> For some time the vaccine makers have been saying they don't know, and then moved on to partial reduction. The Gov are waiting it out and effectively telling people they still need to isolate,SD, mask That's the right thing for them to publish until they know for sure otherwise.


I agree but you are more certain you are definite in the statement that it won't stop you getting the virus or passing it on. You are ahead of the science, or have more knowledge than the government.
I'm sorry to be pedantic but it is this sort of thing that is creating confusion in people's minds.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I'm sorry to be pedantic but it is this sort of thing that is creating confusion in people's minds.



Isn't it better to be confused in the direction of my OP than all of the people who think they can ignore all of the precautions because they've been vaccinated?

And the things that develop like witch hunts of care home staff who don't take the vaccine where there is a possibility they can still pass it on anyway? I'm pretty sure it's public pressure on that which has resulted on healthy care staff being vaccinated ahead of CEV people.

And police....

Surrey Police Federation calls for police officers to be added to the Covid vaccine priority list (polfed.org)



> .....  add police officers to the priority Covid-19 vaccination list to ensure officers can keep themselves, their families and the public safe.



Edit to add:

Are we OK with the Lancet as a source?



> the results nonetheless provide some hope that COVID-19 vaccines might be able to interrupt some asymptomatic transmission



SOME is the only thing any of the research I've seen, it's never even close to being the positive.

Sauce:  Oxford–AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine efficacy - The Lancet


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Isn't it better to be confused in the direction of my OP than all of the people who think they can ignore all of the precautions because they've been vaccinated?
> 
> And the things that develop like witch hunts of care home staff who don't take the vaccine where there is a possibility they can still pass it on anyway? I'm pretty sure it's public pressure on that which has resulted on healthy care staff being vaccinated ahead of CEV people.
> 
> ...


Well, traffic wardens would be last on my list to get a prick as most are already.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

Of course we should be cautious, but we should also be precise in what we say. As of today we don't know whether the vaccine stops you catching or passing on the virus. To say otherwise is wrong. By all means say that we should continue to follow the rules because we don't know but we shouldn't state something that isn't fact. It's as dangerous as the the other lot with the stories about chips and pork in the vaccine.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Of course we should be cautious, but we should also be precise in what we say. As of today we don't know whether the vaccine stops you catching or passing on the virus. To say otherwise is wrong. By all means say that we should continue to follow the rules because we don't know but we shouldn't state something that isn't fact. It's as dangerous as the the other lot with the stories about chips and pork in the vaccine.



Would you have me change it to "At the time of writing, no-one is suggesting the vaccine will 100% stop you passing CV on"?

That would be factually correct wouldn't it?


And actually wouldn't change the tone or message of the post


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Did you know that the " College of Police" is a website? and not an official  organisation that governs the police? It's time the Home Office took control!



What? The College don't profess to govern the police.


> The purpose of the College is to provide those working in policing with the skills and knowledge necessary to prevent crime, protect the public, and secure public trust.



About us | College of Policing

You want the IPCC  Independent Police Complaints Commission - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) They do govern the police.


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Of course we should be cautious, but we should also be precise in what we say. As of today we don't know whether the vaccine stops you catching or passing on the virus. To say otherwise is wrong. By all means say that we should continue to follow the rules because we don't know but we shouldn't state something that isn't fact. It's as dangerous as the the other lot with the stories about chips and pork in the vaccine.


Please inform me of another vaccine that enables you to pass on the disease whilst protecting the vaccinated body. It doesn't happen and that isn't how they work. There are some individuals who are naturally immune and can carry/infect others but they are very rare, remember your history, there was a lady called Plague Mary who lived from 1869-1938 who infected at least 53 people with Typhoid  without having any symptoms herself. She was forcibly incarcerated twice by the authorities.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Please inform me of another vaccine that enables you to pass on the disease whilst protecting the vaccinated body.



Why don't you post a link to any of the CV vaccine manufacturers where they say their product WILL stop the transmission of the virus?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> on Youtube.



Ah, YouTube, that well know source of all truth and fact.      

No comment on the college?


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Why don't you post a link to any of the CV vaccine manufacturers where they say their product WILL stop the transmission of the virus?


Completely unnecessary! It is common knowledge in the world of biology that vaccines work by stopping/blocking the invading virus from reproducing within the human body thus not allowing a viral load to be generated to make an individual contagious!


----------



## mark61 (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Why don't you post a link to any of the CV vaccine manufacturers where they say their product WILL stop the transmission of the virus?


 That will be interesting to see. I can't even find evidence of the 60% less likely posted by REC. Not saying it's not true, I haven't found it yet, not even on AZ's site.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Completely unnecessary! It is common knowledge in the world of biology that vaccines work by stopping/blocking the invading virus from reproducing within the human body thus not allowing a viral load to be generated to make an individual contagious!



That is not what is being reported.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Completely unnecessary!



I had an auditor once who had a saying that made him very good at his job, and very revered.

"Don't tell me, show me."

The reason it caused such a stir was because the majority of the time the people who couldn't show were talking cr4p.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to look like you're talking cr4p, so post a link  

Edit to add, a link specific to CV of course.


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm not talking crap , I'm just educated. Any of this information is easily found. Here's a link
https://www.who.int/news-room/featu...ther the vaccine,first reaction to the actual


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> I'm not talking crap , I'm just educated. Any of this information is easily found. Here's a link
> https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/how-do-vaccines-work#:~:text=Regardless of whether the vaccine,first reaction to the actual



I do apologise Jon, I left it out at first because I thought it would be obvious, but apparently not.

I edited to include " a link specific to CV of course. "


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I do apologise Jon, I left it out at first because I thought it would be obvious, but apparently not.
> 
> I edited to include " a link specific to CV of course. "


Virus are virus and they all work the same way roughly. They deal with HIV very effectively these days, reducing the viral load so it cannot be passed on


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Please inform me of another vaccine that enables you to pass on the disease whilst protecting the vaccinated body. It doesn't happen and that isn't how they work. There are some individuals who are naturally immune and can carry/infect others but they are very rare, remember your history, there was a lady called Plague Mary who lived from 1869-1938 who infected at least 53 people with Typhoid  without having any symptoms herself. She was forcibly incarcerated twice by the authorities.


I'm not a scientist and couldn't tell you but there are no doubt many scientists researching this question otherwise the government wouldn't be saying they don't yet know.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Would you have me change it to "At the time of writing, no-one is suggesting the vaccine will 100% stop you passing CV on"?
> 
> That would be factually correct wouldn't it?
> 
> ...


Yes


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Virus are virus and they all work the same way roughly. They deal with HIV very effectively these days, reducing the viral load so it cannot be passed on



And still no CV link...


----------



## mark61 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Yes


 Post have a time and date, surely thats good enough.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Post have a time and date, surely thats good enough.



I've added it Mark, as it makes no difference lol.


----------



## Deleted member 80299 (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> And still no CV link...


Here is a lot of information on the Covid Viruses as endorsed by the WHO 








						Where We’re at with Vaccines and Treatments for COVID-19
					

Scientists around the world are working on a number of vaccines and treatments for COVID-19.




					www.healthline.com


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

Jon said:


> Here is a lot of information on the Covid Viruses as endorsed by the WHO
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm struggling to find anything in there about vaccinated people passing it on or not.


----------



## colinm (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> When you say emergency



In the context of this thread I used the term 'emergency', there are a lot of treatments that are not denied to 'smokers and the obese', some areas appear to restrict elective surgery, I'm not privy to the reasoning behind all those decisions, but the risks during surgery for obese persons is much higher, this poses problems, the team on hand during surgery has to be larger which consumes more resources, also the outcome could be worse than the condition.


----------



## maingate (Feb 2, 2021)

I understand what Jon is saying and tend to agree with him. It has been clearly stated that the vaccination will take a few weeks to reach its optimum protection of the body. It is also not 100% effective, there are people who will not have the vaccination and there are people not following the safety guidelines.

  After our jab, my Mrs and I will carry on the way we are indefinitely and will only change when the virus is well under control.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

maingate said:


> I understand what Jon is saying and tend to agree with him. .



You agree that having the vaccine will prevent you from passing on CV?


----------



## maingate (Feb 2, 2021)

Yes ... maybe not 100% but if the jab means I can fight and beat the virus then it stands to reason it will not take over my body and multiply, thus making me an agent to pass it on to others.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

maingate said:


> Yes ... maybe not 100%



Ok. Unless it's 100% my point still stands anyway.

Why do you think the manufacturers don't say it stops you passing it on? 

I think there is something different with this virus/vaccine combination.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 2, 2021)

Shouldn't we just wait and see what the vaccine actually does before making assumptions?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Shouldn't we just wait and see what the vaccine actually does before making assumptions?



Absolutely. But in the meantime it's imperative to follow the restrictions even if you've been vaccinated.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 2, 2021)

maingate said:


> Yes ... maybe not 100% but if the jab means I can fight and beat the virus then it stands to reason it will not take over my body and multiply, thus making me an agent to pass it on to others.



Doesn't stand to reason as we know asymptomatic people can pass it on.

And thats not from Karen either.


----------



## peter palance (Feb 2, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> The new to soon be released vaccine will be 99% effective, so roll on summertime.


as a brother an a celt, not the same blood, but i have been with the  barsks, not the same langwidge but, there are still a part of the past,so take care, u may not
 like it bro, but u r one of us, so take care, and the pills, take a look at holstens, best wishes, ok pj


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 2, 2021)

peter palance said:


> as a brother an a celt, not the same blood, but i have been with the  barsks, not the same langwidge but, there are still a part of the past,so take care, u may not
> like it bro, but u r one of us, so take care, and the pills, take a look at holstens, best wishes, ok pj


Some Viking in me, clenched hands which is a DNA sign from rowing boats, and grandads last name Thomson/ Toms son which is of Viking naming.


----------



## maingate (Feb 2, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Doesn't stand to reason as we know asymptomatic people can pass it on.
> 
> And thats not from Karen either.



Do you mean asymptomatic people who have had the vaccine or the unvaccinated?


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 2, 2021)

maingate said:


> Do you mean asymptomatic people who have had the vaccine or the unvaccinated rare people who are just 'carriers' as in the case of Typhoid Mary?



Unvaccinated asymptomatic people have been huge in numbers during this pandemic. We've been told in no uncertain terms that people in that position can pass on CV.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 2, 2021)

Asymptomatic who haven't been vaccinated.


----------



## maingate (Feb 2, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Unvaccinated asymptomatic people have been huge in numbers during this pandemic. We've been told in no uncertain terms that people in that position can pass on CV.



I altered my post after you quoted it as it was not accurate.

Yes, younger people can be especially asymptomatic, it seems a lot less common in older people. It was certainly like that with my Son and Daughter who felt poorly and 3 of the Grandkids hardly noticed anything.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Absolutely. But in the meantime it's imperative to follow the restrictions even if you've been vaccinated.


I wouldn't read the newspapers today if I were you.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 3, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I wouldn't read the newspapers today if I were you.



I'd be over the moon if it's proven to stop transmission. 

It's a lot of "mays" and "reduces" though, not will and stop.


----------



## long time dead (Feb 3, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Your thinking doesn't sound wrong to me, apart from I don't think there is enough there to change anyones mind, if they've already chosen not to have the vaccine.


----------



## long time dead (Feb 3, 2021)

For all the people who dont want the jab, i bet they had their Flu jab which is only about 60% effective.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 3, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I wouldn't read the newspapers today if I were you.



This is from the unpublished paper the news is talking of:


> Overall reduction in any PCR+ was 54.1% (44.7%, 61.9%), indicating the potential for a reduction of transmission with a regimen of two SDs.



SD is standard dose.

From https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3777268 and download it.


----------



## Tookey (Feb 3, 2021)

long time dead said:


> For all the people who dont want the jab, i bet they had their Flu jab which is only about 60% effective.


Unsure about that tbh, flu jab is for the over 50's and I strongly suspect many people who dont want the jab are younger and have never had the option of a flu jab


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'd be over the moon if it's proven to stop transmission.
> 
> It's a lot of "mays" and "reduces" though, not will and stop.



Right from the off nobody ever said that there would be a magic bullet that would eradicate C-19.
I don't recall a "will" or a "stop" being promised by anyone (scientific, that is!)? 

The main news bouncing around during the last 24 hours is that a single dose of AstraZeneca vaccine could cut transmission by 67%.
I would say that's a pretty good start in the battle to reduce overall transmisson!  

On a separate (but still transmission related) tack, here's an interesting read:-

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


----------



## yorkieowl (Feb 3, 2021)

This is a good read.  Not just pulled from a newspaper. 








						COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know
					

Now that COVID-19 vaccines are authorized, here are the facts you need now.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org
				




"If I get a coronavirus vaccination, do I still have to wear a mask? Physical distance?
Yes. It may take time for everyone who wants a COVID-19 vaccination to get one. A vaccine that is 95% effective means that about 1 out of 20 people who get it may not have protection from getting the illness.

Also, while the vaccine may prevent you from getting sick, it is unknown at this time if you can still carry and transmit the virus to others. That is why, until more is understood about how well the vaccine works, continuing with precautions such as mask-wearing and physical distancing will be important."

Now admittedly this is a couple of weeks out of date, but I don't think they are any further forward with their findings as yet.  Unless they do manage to vaccinate virtually all the population (and they're not doing under 16's), then to my mind we will still have to be mask wearing/sd etc for a long time to come anyway.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 3, 2021)

yorkieowl said:


> This is a good read.  Not just pulled from a newspaper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The health and safety guidelines (washing, distance, masks) aren't going away overnight.
I think we all know by now that's a given.

If the news over the last 24 hours is to be believed they are a little further forward in their findings.

Will have to wait and see what the verdict is when the vaccination program has been rolled out a lot more.
I don't know (and neither does the rest of Joe Public) what percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated - regardless of their ages - before we reach a 'safe point'. Only time will tell.

Patience, patience and then a bit more patience....


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'd be over the moon if it's proven to stop transmission.
> 
> It's a lot of "mays" and "reduces" though, not will and stop.


They use the word "may" but used the word "won't". Not quite the same thing especially as this is the findings of specialists.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 3, 2021)

My worry is what we aren't being told about the mutant. We are told it isn't any worse than any other but on the other hand they are testing everyone in the area and suggesting people shouldn't go shopping.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 3, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> My worry is what we aren't being told about the mutant. We are told it isn't any worse than any other but on the other hand they are testing everyone in the area and suggesting people shouldn't go shopping.



This is nature we're dealing with here.

She's a hell of a lot craftier than humans, hence why we'll have to run damn fast on the scientific front.


----------



## maingate (Feb 3, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> The health and safety guidelines (washing, distance, masks) aren't going away overnight.
> I think we all know by now that's a given.
> 
> If the news over the last 24 hours is to be believed they are a little further forward in their findings.
> ...



I think I have said on here that people in their 30's are dying on the Covid Wards in Gateshead and Newcastle, so they will need the vaccine as well. People in that age group may have children in (up to) year 6 or 7, so I wonder if that is the connection to their infection. Obesity also seems to be a factor in a bad outcome for them.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 3, 2021)

maingate said:


> I think I have said on here that people in their 30's are dying on the Covid Wards in Gateshead and Newcastle, so they will need the vaccine as well. People in that age group may have children in (up to) year 6 or 7, so I wonder if that is the connection to their infection. Obesity also seems to be a factor in a bad outcome for them.


Does that mean no more porkies on the bus, so i can get a seat now.
Anyway no bad news as yet from hospital regarding my wifes dad.


----------



## colinm (Feb 3, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I wouldn't read the newspapers today if I were you.


The press release from AstraZeneca suggests that 1/3 of those vaccinated can still pass it on. So yes all must still stick to the rules.


----------



## Haaamster (Feb 3, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Some Viking in me, clenched hands which is a DNA sign from rowing boats, and grandads last name Thomson/ Toms son which is of Viking naming.


That's called Dupuytrens Contracture, as you say very common in ancestors of vikings.Little nodules build up on the tendons but if you massage them they go away. It's caused by gripping something too strongly and for too long. 
I get a very mild version after many hours on a video game. 
Don't know what you've been gripping too hard but perhaps try doing a bit lighter


----------



## mark61 (Feb 3, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Right from the off nobody ever said that there would be a magic bullet that would eradicate C-19.
> I don't recall a "will" or a "stop" being promised by anyone (scientific, that is!)?
> 
> The main news bouncing around during the last 24 hours is that a single dose of AstraZeneca vaccine could cut transmission by 67%.
> ...



That is a good read. 
Might be time to stop washing or putting into quarantine everything `I bring in the flat.

I've still got some post been in quarantine since last April.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 3, 2021)

Haaamster said:


> That's called Dupuytrens Contracture, as you say very common in ancestors of vikings.Little nodules build up on the tendons but if you massage them they go away. It's caused by gripping something too strongly and for too long.
> I get a very mild version after many hours on a video game.
> Don't know what you've been gripping too hard but perhaps try doing a bit lighter



Had Dupuytrens for at least 15 years, being right handed it's strangely worse in my left hand. Luckily has progressed for years.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 3, 2021)

mark61 said:


> That is a good read.
> Might be time to stop washing or putting into quarantine everything `I bring in the flat.
> 
> *I've still got some post been in quarantine since last April*.



Were they in window envelopes marked 'last chance to pay before bailiffs' ?


----------



## yorkslass (Feb 3, 2021)

Haaamster said:


> That's called Dupuytrens Contracture, as you say very common in ancestors of vikings.Little nodules build up on the tendons but if you massage them they go away. It's caused by gripping something too strongly and for too long.
> I get a very mild version after many hours on a video game.
> Don't know what you've been gripping too hard but perhaps try doing a bit lighter


David has had operations on both hands for dupuytrens...pretty successfully.  I told him over the years not to use the palms of his hands as hammers....never listened.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 3, 2021)

yorkslass said:


> David has had operations on both hands for dupuytrens...pretty successfully.  I told him over the years not to use the palms of his hands as hammers....never listened.


Are you sure he did not get it from holding onto two BIG objects.


----------



## yorkslass (Feb 3, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Are you sure he did not get it from holding onto two BIG objects.


What would they be then, Trev


----------



## trixie88 (Feb 3, 2021)

yorkslass said:


> What would they be then, Trev


my word your brave sue.......


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 3, 2021)

yorkslass said:


> What would they be then, Trev


I will explain when you reach 21. 
Knockers.


----------



## Brockley (Feb 3, 2021)

Haaamster said:


> That's called Dupuytrens Contracture, as you say very common in ancestors of vikings.Little nodules build up on the tendons but if you massage them they go away. It's caused by gripping something too strongly and for too long.
> I get a very mild version after many hours on a video game.
> Don't know what you've been gripping too hard but perhaps try doing a bit lighter



I have the condition in both hands, what are you trying to say!! Gripping something “too strongly and for too long”, I’m truly offended......not. Truth is it‘s very prevalent in Scandinavia, the Viking connection is spot on. We‘ve been self governed for the last 2000 years following a Viking invasion. Sorry to inform you, but massaging wont make it ’go away’. I play guitar and I’m very conscious about how to control it. Constant use guitar playing using the left hand as a right handed person helps greatly, it slows the process but it won‘t ever go away.

I‘m guessing it’s been known about for generations and more prevalent for us ‘Viking’s’, but Guillaume Depuytren was French, much famed for looking after Napoleon’s piles! He was the first one to operate on them.

I’ll keep mine thanks. I know more people personally who have suffered more following that operation than those gaining relief! I exercise both hands and fingers to keep them supple, it won‘t go away, but it’s likely to prevent clawing. If you really need a definition of clawing pm me!


----------



## Brockley (Feb 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'd be over the moon if it's proven to stop transmission.
> 
> It's a lot of "mays" and "reduces" though, not will and stop.


Read the news and get with the program. It’s doubters that will hold us forevermore from doing what we love.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 3, 2021)

Brockley said:


> Read the news and get with the program. It’s doubters that will hold us forevermore from doing what we love.



Did you read the post I opened this thread with?


----------



## Brockley (Feb 4, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Did you read the post I opened this thread with?


Perhaps not as closely as I should have, but I get a little fed up with all the negativity surrounding covid 19. For example, there‘s been zero examples of asymptomatic transmission over here, all were traced to travel. The limited number cases caught in the community were also traced to travel. I’m not saying that asymptomatic transmission doesn’t exist, but I doubt its anywhere near as bad as some people think.


----------



## st3v3 (Feb 4, 2021)

Brockley said:


> Perhaps not as closely as I should have,





We had a huge problem with students here in Bristol constantly licking each other and had loads of positive tests. Very few with any symptoms though.

Where is here?


----------



## Brockley (Feb 4, 2021)

‘tiloman


----------



## mark61 (Feb 4, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> We had a huge problem with students here in Bristol constantly licking each other and had loads of positive tests. Very few with any symptoms though.
> 
> Where is here?


 Same here in north London, people I know or know of with positive test and asymptomatic out number those with symptoms. Could well be down to the number of youth.


----------



## richie (Feb 6, 2021)

i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors


----------



## REC (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors


Wildcamping has been a bit sidelined at the moment, everyone is a bit distracted. Limit to how many posts about the motor home parked up with nowhere to go


----------



## Tookey (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors


Richie, no one is camping, people are bored, this forum is 'outside' contact for many and covid is the hot topic.......I think circumstances dictate some leniency


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors



And this is the 'coronavirus' section of the site.
Which everyone has the free will to choose to ignore and not bother reading? 

Hundreds of other threads for you to read instead - solar, batteries, toilets, water supplies, POIs, generators, lighting, Schengen.... you name it, it will have been discussed somewhere in the forum.

Anything untoward, or 'fake news', will get removed by admins, but otherwise we are free to discuss, and why not?
After all, it is currently a major world-consuming topic...!


----------



## Deleted member 56601 (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors


Not just doctors, we've got lawyers, politicians, scientists.........


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 6, 2021)

Yeah, the unqualified talent is completely unbelievable


----------



## Deleted member 44012 (Feb 6, 2021)

-3 misty here in rural Oxfordshire
Oops wrong thread  apologies  It was accurate however


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors


You're obviously not aware that wildcampers are a highly intelligent bunch. Most have dual doctorates in medicine and the law.


----------



## Trotter (Feb 6, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> And this is the 'coronavirus' section of the site.
> Which everyone has the free will to choose to ignore and not bother reading


Quite right, Marie. Although it is getting a bit excessive sometimes. I reckon I'll pass by for the most part. I'm bored enough as it is. BBC news is Covid update, bugger all else going on in the world. Reading about it on here? I'll leave that for now. 
Questions that should be asked are. What's happened to the Nightingale Hospitals ? Why aren't they being used as isolation hospitals? Staffing levels? There are still many recently retired doctors, nurses out there, who will remain that way, until the red tape they are require to go through is eliminated. Why on earth do they need to attend seminars to prove they could recognise a terrorist threat. Health and insanity still rule 
I was sorry to hear about a 100 year old dying, but lets be honest, he had a bloody good innings. Pfizer, Oxford, whatever, they either work or they won't. The only thing I'm certain of is, I won't be getting out of this world alive.
One day, we'll be back to normal. Of course, that would be a NEW normal. Wearing a face mask will remain. After all the Japanese have been wearing one for years, at the first sign of a cold.
I'm rambling on again. Easy enough to do, stuck at home. 
Stay safe everyone. I'll leave you in the tender hands of our medical team. 
Oh! Slate the above as much as you like. Do I look bovvered ?


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 6, 2021)

Liberty hall said:


> -3 misty here in rural Oxfordshire



... and we even get random weather reports interjected sometimes.... 

Thanks Liberty  ❤xx

Is it just me, or is the world falling apart a tad?


----------



## Tookey (Feb 6, 2021)

Liberty hall said:


> -3 misty here in rural Oxfordshire


What is your source please, otherwise that is just hearsay


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 6, 2021)

Tookey said:


> What is your source please, otherwise that is just hearsay



Quite right!

Can't have random temperature reports without proper verification.

Was the local thermometer giving the negative reading a Met Office approved one, or just a cheap, unreliable 99p jobbie from Home Bargains?

Hmm? Hmmmm?!


----------



## tidewatcher (Feb 6, 2021)

And how do we know he is in rural Oxford? All the signs of a Russian bot spreading false news.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors



Sorry mate, you are right, lets get back to motorhoming.

MH currently sorned, parked on drive, going nowhere, vigilante covid police out there.

Bored yet?


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 6, 2021)

Fact is very few are shielding here, most at work with no masks and shoppers only wearing them at tesco which is on there chin.
Folk are dropping like flies and getting their pine overcoat, all this means is come a year down the line there may be more parking spaces for me at the beach, if i/we make it through.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 6, 2021)

Folk are being pretty good up here in north east England, Trev.
At least they are all round where we live!

We have a long history of pulling together in adversity, I think it might still be in the regional DNA


----------



## trixie88 (Feb 6, 2021)

Edina said:


> Not just doctors, we've got lawyers, politicians, scientists.........


yes....not to mention builders, sparkies, joiners. DIYers...gardeners. mechanics, etc. etc.etc  ......motorcyclers, musicians, comics,  etc etc...the list goes on   advice on most subjects...not forgetting   FISHERMEN  and HEN KEEPERS  
and long may it continue that way......BEST FORUM EVER.......like someone said ITS A COMMUNITY   it would be extremely boring if all the talk was about motorhomes...
as mariesnowgoose has said there are other threads to read which do pertain to motorhomes or which may take someones interest.
i dont read motorcycle thread im not interested in them..however i have no objection to the thread being there cos there are many here who are interested....maybe if i did read it..i would learn something from it.
i wasnt at all interested in bread making...until i started reading very interesting bread making thread on our other site,,,,,,,now its grabbed my interest big time.

when we cannot travel at this particular time.......i find talking/reading getting others views as to whats happening in todays world    i find very enlightening...
not to mention the information which is gleened from it.
the banter....and comic one liners etc.    are a great giggle....and members are friendly and helpful......next best thing to a meet
YES I FOR ONE HOPE IT STAYS THE WAY IT IS..........A COMMUNITY


----------



## MartinB201 (Feb 6, 2021)

vaccines do not need to be 100% effective and 100% of a population do not need to be vaccinated. As with all virus's that we have been vaccinated against over many years, only enough to gain herd immunity is required. What that number is open at the moment but is likely to be in the order of 70%.


----------



## REC (Feb 6, 2021)

MartinB201 said:


> vaccines do not need to be 100% effective and 100% of a population do not need to be vaccinated. As with all virus's that we have been vaccinated against over many years, only enough to gain herd immunity is required. What that number is open at the moment but is likely to be in the order of 70%.


I won't be one of the ones ?(30%) which dont. Should only be those who have a genuine inability to be vaccinated who don't have it.


----------



## maingate (Feb 6, 2021)

richie said:


> i thought this was a wild camping site but it seems i,ve got into a chat room full of know it all doctors



There are 2 types of wildcampers.

Those that are a legend in their own mind

And those that are just a leg end.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 6, 2021)

maingate said:


> There are 2 types of wildcampers.
> 
> Those that are a legend in their own mind
> 
> And those that are just a leg end.


And the ones which are a legend in their own lunchtime.


----------



## Trotter (Feb 6, 2021)

maingate said:


> There are 2 types of wildcampers.
> 
> Those that are a legend in their own mind
> 
> And those that are just a leg end.


I reckon there’s got to be at least three types. There’s us who do try to wild camp. Done a bit, although not enough. So that puts me in all three categories. 
Happy to be a leg end. It’s a b£ll end that bothers me


----------



## maingate (Feb 6, 2021)

Trotter said:


> I reckon there’s got to be at least three types. There’s us who do try to wild camp. Done a bit, although not enough. So that puts me in all three categories.
> Happy to be a leg end. It’s a b£ll end that bothers me



It would seem that many motorhomers are also ultracrepidarians.

Here are a selection of other names that fit some members I know.  

This info kindly provided by a friend.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1851070124968093


----------



## Robmac (Feb 6, 2021)

Well Jim.

From that I can conclude that I am a Fudgel, a Twattling, a Grumbletonian, a Groke, an Ultracrepidarian, a lanspresado and before now I have been accused of Jargogling and Zwoddering!


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 6, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Well Jim.
> 
> From that I can conclude that I am a Fudgel, a Twattling, a Grumbletonian, a Groke, an Ultracrepidarian, a lanspresado and before now I have been accused of Jargogling and Zwoddering!


And thats when you are asleep.


----------



## Robmac (Feb 6, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> And thats when you are asleep.



As long as I don't wake up with a case of the Woofits Trev.


----------



## maingate (Feb 6, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Well Jim.
> 
> From that I can conclude that I am a Fudgel, a Twattling, a Grumbletonian, a Groke, an Ultracrepidarian, a lanspresado and before now I have been accused of Jargogling and Zwoddering!



I was thinking of you when I posted it Rob.


----------



## Robmac (Feb 6, 2021)

maingate said:


> I was thinking of you when I posted it Rob.



Grumbletonian made me smile Jim, not sure why.


----------



## Trotter (Feb 6, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Well Jim.
> 
> From that I can conclude that I am a Fudgel, a Twattling, a Grumbletonian, a Groke, an Ultracrepidarian, a lanspresado and before now I have been accused of Jargogling and Zwoddering!


Now, you're just being greedy. Settle for sozzled.


----------



## Deleted member 25361 (Feb 7, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on. ( Edit for Sam: At the time of writing, no-one is suggesting the vaccine will 100% stop you passing CV on)
> 
> So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.
> 
> ...


NOT FOR ME! Thank you! It's a flu virus!


----------



## mark61 (Feb 7, 2021)

WillyO said:


> NOT FOR ME! Thank you! It's a flu virus!


Say what?


----------



## lefty107 (Feb 7, 2021)

_Being one of the jabbed a few months ago (NHS) I think jabbed pass ports will come in. It will not be our goverment but I can see EU saying you can't come in without one and just to throw something in what about pubs,restaurant, clubs etc having a door policy like ties in the 70's. No passport no entry. . Haven't seen anything yet but wouldent surprise me.
oh and can I take my tin foil hat off yet ?_


----------



## tidewatcher (Feb 7, 2021)

it is not just a flu virus it is a respiratory virus. it has a far higher serious illness and death rate than flu. I notice elsewhere you mentioned a 98% recovery rate, oh dear, statistics of the simplistic. That is an overall figure for the whole population, if you look at the mortality rate in older sections of the population or those with underlying problems it is far higher. there are two excellent factual programs on Radio 4, More or Less which deals with the interpretation of statistics and How to Vacinate the World which gives excellent scientific based information about the need for population vaccination.  Or of course you can always resort facebook or Twitter where all the information is well though through and based on scientific knowledge. Had my jab and as yet nobody from Amazon has called me despite the inserted chip.


----------



## REC (Feb 7, 2021)

tidewatcher said:


> Had my jab and as yet nobody from Amazon has called me despite the inserted chip.


But have you been inexplicably knocking on doors trying to sell Microsoft products since the vaccination?


----------



## 2cv (Feb 7, 2021)

lefty107 said:


> _Being one of the jabbed a few months ago (NHS) I think jabbed pass ports will come in. It will not be our goverment but I can see EU saying you can't come in without one and just to throw something in what about pubs,restaurant, clubs etc having a door policy like ties in the 70's. No passport no entry. . Haven't seen anything yet but wouldent surprise me.
> oh and can I take my tin foil hat off yet ?_



Certainly there is much progress towards vaccine passports. In Europe Greece and Portugal are particularly keen, seeing them as a possible boost for their tourism industry next summer. Link


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 7, 2021)

2cv said:


> Certainly there is much progress towards vaccine passports. In Europe Greece and Portugal are particularly keen, seeing them as a possible boost for their tourism industry next summer. Link



Getting vaccine 'passports' makes perfect sense, imho.

It's not a new idea.
You've always need proof of inoculation for various other diseases, depending where in the world you were travelling.
This will just be on a bigger scale.


----------



## BigDave (Feb 7, 2021)

Boris7 said:


> No the vaccine will hopefully stop you from dying from it, and that gives your immune system a chance to build anti body’s, over a period of time, we should all become immune as Anti body’s get stronger etc...


Just like the flu we will need an annual top up to be sure! Mutations are the danger.


----------



## Deleted member 25361 (Feb 7, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Say what?


Look it up!


----------



## tidewatcher (Feb 7, 2021)

REC said:


> But have you been inexplicably knocking on doors trying to sell Microsoft products since the vaccination?


Funny you should mention that but since the jab my iPad has been playing up.......


----------



## Deleted member 38054 (Feb 7, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> The vaccine doesn't stop you getting CV, and passing it on. ( Edit for Sam: At the time of writing, no-one is suggesting the vaccine will 100% stop you passing CV on)
> 
> So, as restrictions about meeting other people get lifted the virus will spread through EVERYONE.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that the vaccine will not stop you catching Covid or passing it on, what it should do is reduce the effects of the virus on your system to the extent that you shouldn’t need to be hospitalised. I believe that once around 85% (this used to be ar 70% but the new strain is more transmissible) of the population has been vaccinated, or has had the virus, then the virus would die out. I think that the U.K. is likely to achieve this by late summer (only my opinion), it may be sometime before European countries achieve it though.


----------



## Pedalman (Feb 8, 2021)

Anyone that refuses the vaccine will be in the "vulnerable" group permanently and always at risk of getting seriously ill from covid19.


----------



## Pedalman (Feb 8, 2021)

izwozral said:


> Anti vaxxer's should have there passports nulled and for the pro vaxxer's they should have a card that shows they have been vaccinated and when the time comes for a new passport it can be shown in there. It should also be a requirement for visas to show you have been vaccinated.


Vaccine cards or paperwork will probably create a whole new counterfeit industry.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 8, 2021)

Pedalman said:


> Vaccine cards or paperwork will probably create a whole new counterfeit industry.



It must be possible in this day and age to have the information scanned and referenced on a database that shows you have had the jab.? The database is being used this very moment, which is how the NHS knows who has had the jab and who hasn't.

Of course this only works in developed countries but there must be other ways of showing whether you have been vaxxed or not?


----------



## izwozral (Feb 8, 2021)

WillyO said:


> NOT FOR ME! Thank you! It's a flu virus!
> Look it up!




So which issue of the Beano is it in?


----------



## tidewatcher (Feb 8, 2021)

izwozral said:


> So which issue of the Beano is it in?


Looked under Desperate Dan and no luck but it turned up under Dennis the Menace...... Lord Snooty and his Pals were on the fence about it.....


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 8, 2021)

izwozral said:


> It must be possible in this day and age to have the information scanned and referenced on a database that shows you have had the jab.? The database is being used this very moment, which is how the NHS knows who has had the jab and who hasn't.
> 
> Of course this only works in developed countries but there must be other ways of showing whether you have been vaxxed or not?


Yes its called a m/chip in the arm from the vaccine.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 8, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Yes its called a m/chip in the arm from the vaccine.



Wouldn't worry me Trev, I am going to wear my jab with pride. Can't wait for it.


----------



## Pedalman (Feb 8, 2021)

WillyO said:


> NOT FOR ME! Thank you! It's a flu virus!



You think this covid is just a flu virus ??????  What ?????  You are part of the dangerous misinformation brigade.
One virologist said last April, Quote -  "Covid is a close to the flu as an ingrowing toe nail is to a heart attack".


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## Mikeparkinson (Feb 10, 2021)

Read the other day that Israel are now testing a new vaccine that cures people who have COVID in 5days. The first stages of the trials have been completed successfully! So maybe things are slowly starting to take an upward turn


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## Minisorella (Feb 10, 2021)

WillyO said:


> NOT FOR ME! Thank you! It's a flu virus!


Oh dear... I so hope you're kidding because it really isn't the same! Whether you're joking or not, it's sad that there are still people around who don't understand the basics after almost a year of expertise being readily available 

1. 'Flu is caused by the _Influenza _virus that comes in groups A and B and has lots and lots of variants that are added to the vaccination cocktail each year. It's been around for at least a century.

2. SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) is caused by a totally different virus that is one of the many members of the _Coronavirus _family. The specific virus was called SARS-CoV. It was first identified in humans in 2002 in China, having only been seen in civet cats before that.

3. MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) comes from a _Coronavirus _called MERS-CoV. It was first identified in the Middle East in 2012.

4. COVID-19 comes from a _Coronavirus _called SARS-CoV-2. First identified in China at the end of 2019.

Hope that clears things up


----------



## Robmac (Feb 10, 2021)

Mikeparkinson said:


> Read the other day that Israel are now testing a new vaccine that cures people who have COVID in 5days. The first stages of the trials have been completed successfully! So maybe things are slowly starting to take an upward turn



I've read that they have now jabbed 50% of the population or more but that is the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

So they are way ahead than us on numbers of vaccinations but I can't find any news of a new vaccine. Do you have a link?


----------



## Wully (Feb 10, 2021)

I seen it too Rob it’s not a vaccine it’s a treatment after you’ve caught it they say it works in in 5 days with great results.  



			https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjkuf_3gODuAhW0unEKHWZlBKcQFjAIegQIDBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2021%2F02%2F05%2Fnew-israeli-covid-drug-cured-30-cases-disease-hailed-scientists%2F&usg=AOvVaw1l9RSsDQi76i_BMBJd6NgW


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## mark61 (Feb 10, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Oh dear... I so hope you're kidding because it really isn't the same! Whether you're joking or not, it's sad that there are still people around who don't understand the basics after almost a year of expertise being readily available
> 
> 1. 'Flu is caused by the _Influenza _virus that comes in groups A and B and has lots and lots of variants that are added to the vaccination cocktail each year. It's been around for at least a century.
> 
> ...


 
I guess there is no chance WillyO was referring to the similarity of some of symptoms rather than the virus itself.


----------



## QFour (Feb 10, 2021)

Wully said:


> I seen it too Rob it’s not a vaccine it’s a treatment after you’ve caught it they say it works in in 5 days with great results.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjkuf_3gODuAhW0unEKHWZlBKcQFjAIegQIDBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2021%2F02%2F05%2Fnew-israeli-covid-drug-cured-30-cases-disease-hailed-scientists%2F&usg=AOvVaw1l9RSsDQi76i_BMBJd6NgW



Got a long way to go before it can be used in the population. A lot of these drugs make it through initial stages and then have trouble when they get to phase 3 trials. You have only got to have someone die and the trial will be stopped to find out why. This is why some of these treatments take so long to get to the pharmacy. Lot of research going on into drugs that are already available for other illnesses.

I used to sail with a guy who was in the labs at AZ. He used to create drugs for specific purposes. Some never got out of the labs, some got to trials but didn't help the patients and some got all the way through trials only to fail.

Read with interest the way the preventative measures are being used in India. Drinking cows urine is supposed to stop you getting Covid along with breathing in fresh steam whatever that is. They are also using ancient ayurvedic home remedies to ward off the disease.

HERE


----------



## Fazerloz (Feb 10, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I've read that they have now jabbed 50% of the population or more but that is the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.
> 
> So they are way ahead than us on numbers of vaccinations but I can't find any news of a new vaccine. Do you have a link?


 They have done a higher % of their 9,000,000 population  but we have done more actual  vaccinations.


----------



## Robmac (Feb 10, 2021)

Fazerloz said:


> They have done a higher % of their 9,000,000 population  but we have done more actual  vaccinations.



Yes sorry, they have a far smaller population than we do.


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## Minisorella (Feb 11, 2021)

QFour said:


> *snip*
> 
> Read with interest the way the preventative measures are being used in India. Drinking cows urine is supposed to stop you getting Covid along with breathing in fresh steam whatever that is. They are also using ancient ayurvedic home remedies to ward off the disease.
> 
> HERE


Prof Van Tam didn't mince his words this morning talking about false claims like these from India. They're one of the reasons ethnic minority groups aren't taking up the vaccine... they think they've got it covered with old wives tale remedies. Such a shame


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 11, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I guess there is no chance WillyO was referring to the similarity of some of symptoms rather than the virus itself.


None... but there is chance he was only joking


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 11, 2021)

Just need to keep booking in for the vaccine when the relevant group slots come round.
Can't do everyone at once, plenty patience still needed


----------



## colinm (Feb 11, 2021)

QFour said:


> Read with interest the way the preventative measures are being used in India. Drinking cows urine is supposed to stop you getting Covid along with breathing in fresh steam whatever that is. They are also using ancient ayurvedic home remedies to ward off the disease.
> 
> HERE



There have been big problems in India with fake preventative measures.


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 11, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Just need to keep booking in for the vaccine when the relevant group slots come round.
> Can't do everyone at once, plenty patience still needed


I can't help thinking a slow down is inevitable because they've done so well, there are now around 12.5m people who need to get their second dose over the next few months. Surely they can't keep up this incredible pace with first shots too? I'm trying really hard to be patient because I know everyone is doing their best


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 11, 2021)

There is something strange in the numbers in each group to be vaccinated
70 to 74.         3.2m
65 to 69.         2.9m
60 to 64.         1.8m
How is it the lower the age group the fewer the number?


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## Biggarmac (Feb 11, 2021)

Quite a lot of the 60 to 65 lot will already have been injected as front line care staff.  Others may have pre existing conditions and been done with the over 70s.


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## mark61 (Feb 11, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> There is something strange in the numbers in each group to be vaccinated
> 70 to 74.         3.2m
> 65 to 69.         2.9m
> 60 to 64.         1.8m
> How is it the lower the age group the fewer the number?


 
I just did the online calc. Using an age of 61 and it shows between 10,468,116 and 13,122,676 people in front of me.


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 11, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> Quite a lot of the 60 to 65 lot will already have been injected as front line care staff.  Others may have pre existing conditions and been done with the over 70s.


Before the 60 to 64's there are 7.4m 16 to 64's who have underlying health problems but how are there fewer over 60's than over 65's?


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 11, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Before the 60 to 64's there are 7.4m 16 to 64's who have underlying health problems but how are there fewer over 60's than over 65's?



Over 65s are the baby boomers, so more of them?


----------



## colinm (Feb 11, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> There is something strange in the numbers in each group to be vaccinated
> 70 to 74.         3.2m
> 65 to 69.         2.9m
> 60 to 64.         1.8m
> How is it the lower the age group the fewer the number?


Where did the figures come from?
The population figures increase with the lower ages, but there may be factors as others have posted.
• UK: population, by age 2019 | Statista


----------



## antiquesam (Feb 11, 2021)

colinm said:


> Where did the figures come from?
> The population figures increase with the lower ages, but there may be factors as others have posted.
> • UK: population, by age 2019 | Statista


The BBC website on vaccination groups.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 11, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> The BBC website on vaccination groups.



I'd check the ONS site directly instead of the BBC.

Haven't bothered looking myself for the vaccination age numbers you're taking about, but should be in there somewhere if you dig around?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../latesthealthindicatorsinengland5february2021


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## antiquesam (Feb 11, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'd check the ONS site directly instead of the BBC.
> 
> Haven't bothered looking myself for the vaccination age numbers you're taking about, but should be in there somewhere if you dig around?
> 
> https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../latesthealthindicatorsinengland5february2021


The figures come from the Covid delivery plan based on the NHSEI data for England extrapolated to the UK.


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 11, 2021)

There's a table of the 9 priority cohorts here that includes numbers for each cohort. Looks the same as the one Sam quoted from the BBC...






						Briefing – Vaccine Prioritisation
					

Vaccination policy has been decided nationally, based on evidence-based advice from the independent Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI), and is very closely managed. Councils do not have local discretion over the decisions and priorities made.




					www.local.gov.uk


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## trevskoda (Feb 11, 2021)

Best to ask Sheena on facebook.


----------



## Ericb (Feb 12, 2021)

one thing this covid outbreak has taught me, there are a lot of selfish people out there who couldnt give a monkeys about anyone else.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 12, 2021)

Ericb said:


> one thing this covid outbreak has taught me, there are a lot of selfish people out there who couldnt give a monkeys about anyone else.



You're right there!
Decent folk still around though.  

What I find most worrying and creepy is the way a lot more people now completely avoid eye contact with each other, or show willing to take part in conversational exchange when you're out and about. 
No lame jokes please, I know I can talk for England which might have something to do with it - but that only applies to people who know me!!! 

I put this sort of wariness and withdrawal down to the fear and general awfulness of the way we're having to live just now.

However, when you make a little effort, it's amazing how many people are also relieved to have a passing chat and get an echo of what would once have been 'normal'.

The virus has really changed the way we interact with each other just now.


----------



## mark61 (Feb 12, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> You're right there!
> Decent folk still around though.
> 
> What I find most worrying and creepy is the way a lot more people now completely avoid eye contact with each other, or show willing to take part in conversational exchange when you're out and about.
> ...


 
Don't knock it. I have to take a good look out the window before going out, make sure the coast is clear, otherwise I'll end up chatting and it'll take half n hour to get 100 metres up the road. Never get anything done.


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 12, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> You're right there!
> Decent folk still around though.
> 
> What I find most worrying and creepy is the way a lot more people now completely avoid eye contact with each other, or show willing to take part in conversational exchange when you're out and about.
> ...


It's so sad that you've noticed people avoiding eye contact and conversation, etc  

It's not been like that at all where I live. Ever since the first lockdown, far more people have been out walking locally and I can't recall a single one over all these months that hasn't given me a cheery word or responded to mine. Of course, when passing, everyone does the 2m+ version of the do-si-do and one often ends up shimmying into the road or someone's driveway/gateway  Without fail, there's always a thank you and a smile - yes even behind a mask because you can still tell - and a cheery 'morning' 'lovely day' or 'nothing personal' as you avoid them like the plague  It's been the one silver lining for me throughout this that everyone in my neighbourhood seems more relaxed and friendly about a quick chat in the street.

Having said all that, all bets are off when it comes to supermarket visits!! Even I turn into a growling rottweiler sometimes when I see people with their masks dangling under their chins, pushing past everyone and literally breathing into people's faces by reaching across to grab what they want from the shelf! Grrrrrrrrrr.  They're very much in the minority though... and I promise I haven't bitten anyone yet


----------



## Robmac (Feb 12, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> It's so sad that you've noticed people avoiding eye contact and conversation, etc
> 
> It's not been like that at all where I live. Ever since the first lockdown, far more people have been out walking locally and I can't recall a single one over all these months that hasn't given me a cheery word or responded to mine. Of course, when passing, everyone does the 2m+ version of the do-si-do and one often ends up shimmying into the road or someone's driveway/gateway  Without fail, there's always a thank you and a smile - yes even behind a mask because you can still tell - and a cheery 'morning' 'lovely day' or 'nothing personal' as you avoid them like the plague  It's been the one silver lining for me throughout this that everyone in my neighbourhood seems more relaxed and friendly about a quick chat in the street.
> 
> Having said all that, all bets are off when it comes to supermarket visits!! Even I turn into a growling rottweiler sometimes when I see people with their masks dangling under their chins, pushing past everyone and literally breathing into people's faces by reaching across to grab what they want from the shelf! Grrrrrrrrrr.  They're very much in the minority though... and I promise I haven't bitten anyone yet



What annoys me Jennie is that people are still wandering around the shops completely preoccupied with their bloody 'phones.

They aren't taking a blind bit of notice where they are going or how near they are getting, the 'phone rules all. They should ban mobile use in supermarkets in my opinion.


----------



## blights (Feb 14, 2021)

Any of the vaccines do not stop you catching CV it is given to hopefully stop you getting the worst case of CV and need hospital treatment at best , fatality at worse . Early data shows it does stop hospitalization and fatality at the moment, what is harder to judge is can you carry it and pass it on if vaccinated this is the risk to all those that will not or cannot get vaccinated, hence they are now running tests on children from 6yrs of age , yet when they do pressers they always say young children are rare to get it bad it is not the fact young ones get it lightly it is the passing on of CV to others in higher risks from the young ones that will be an issue. I do think by the end of the year CV will be a treatable disease but more like the treatment of flu all those deemed high risk will need regular jabs . Just my opinion of course a new variant could of course bring all this great work of vaccinating to an end and a need to start over again could be amongst us along with future lockdown look at the extra effort being put in to track African variant , there are some 4,000 variants of CV already only takes one to mutate a bit further than we want and that will take us back to the beginning apart from the tinkling of the DNA of the current vaccine to adapt to the new strain this takes times to do and restrictions possibly lockdown will be needed to hold it back until this is done, my concern is this if it mutates more than common flu as we know the flu jab is changed every season to match the strain and then we go get the jab if CV mutates more than once a season how can we keep getting new jabs is It safe to be jabbed in say Jan for a strain of CV and then again because it changed in say Sept that is my concern anyway. I do hope we can all move about soon and hope to see one or two of you on the road I think the hand wave will mean a lot more when we can move and I will make an effort to make sure I wave back at all of my fellow wilder 🖒


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 14, 2021)

Robmac said:


> What annoys me Jennie is that people are still wandering around the shops completely preoccupied with their bloody 'phones.
> 
> They aren't taking a blind bit of notice where they are going or how near they are getting, the 'phone rules all. They should ban mobile use in supermarkets in my opinion.


They have their shopping list on it and now pay buy apt and tap, keep up with the times.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 14, 2021)

Wife made a complaint in eurospar yesterday about folks without masks, manager told her he has no control over it as he would get a smack in the face from rather large builder type that come in and not worth the hastle never mind the hendersons head co not backing him up.


----------



## Robmac (Feb 14, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> They have their shopping list on it and now pay buy apt and tap, keep up with the times.



No Trev. The one in front of us was texting all the way round the store. As were many others, especially the youngsters.


----------



## trevskoda (Feb 14, 2021)

We saw a chap walk into a lamp post with his head stuck in his phone


----------



## Robmac (Feb 14, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> We saw a chap walk into a lamp post with his head stuck in his phone



Justice!


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 14, 2021)

blights said:


> Any of the vaccines do not stop you catching CV it is given to hopefully stop you getting the worst case of CV and need hospital treatment at best , fatality at worse . Early data shows it does stop hospitalization and fatality at the moment, what is harder to judge is can you carry it and pass it on if vaccinated this is the risk to all those that will not or cannot get vaccinated, hence they are now running tests on children from 6yrs of age , yet when they do pressers they always say young children are rare to get it bad it is not the fact young ones get it lightly it is the passing on of CV to others in higher risks from the young ones that will be an issue. I do think by the end of the year CV will be a treatable disease but more like the treatment of flu all those deemed high risk will need regular jabs . Just my opinion of course a new variant could of course bring all this great work of vaccinating to an end and a need to start over again could be amongst us along with future lockdown look at the extra effort being put in to track African variant , there are some 4,000 variants of CV already only takes one to mutate a bit further than we want and that will take us back to the beginning apart from the tinkling of the DNA of the current vaccine to adapt to the new strain this takes times to do and restrictions possibly lockdown will be needed to hold it back until this is done, my concern is this if it mutates more than common flu as we know the flu jab is changed every season to match the strain and then we go get the jab if CV mutates more than once a season how can we keep getting new jabs is It safe to be jabbed in say Jan for a strain of CV and then again because it changed in say Sept that is my concern anyway. I do hope we can all move about soon and hope to see one or two of you on the road I think the hand wave will mean a lot more when we can move and I will make an effort to make sure I wave back at all of my fellow wilder 🖒


Another really important thing to remember is that the less people who catch it, the less chance the virus has to mutate. The hands, face and space thing will be 'normal' for a very long time to come I think... we need to get the case numbers down very very low and keep them there. It really is all down to us as individuals


----------



## Chrisinchip (Feb 15, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Another really important thing to remember is that the less people who catch it, the less chance the virus has to mutate. The hands, face and space thing will be 'normal' for a very long time to come I think... we need to get the case numbers down very very low and keep them there. It really is all down to us as individuals


Sadly, keeping everyone motivated to carry on with these prevention controls will be doubly hard when the impact of the virus on people we know becomes much reduced.


----------



## izwozral (Feb 15, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> You're right there!
> Decent folk still around though.
> 
> What I find most worrying and creepy is the way a lot more people now completely avoid eye contact with each other, or show willing to take part in conversational exchange when you're out and about.
> ...



Having not bathed or changed underwear since the start of the first lockdown, I find that people are more than happy not to converse with me. It's either that or it's me growling at them if they get too close. 
Treat everyone as a leper and live is my new motto, there'll be time enough for deep tongue gymnastics when and if we beat this virus.

Marie, I wouldn't dream of cracking ANY jokes about your motormouth, or inexhaustible lung capacity or even your mile a minute discourse on just about any subject in the world, no matter how insignificant. 
It would be rude of me to do so, nor would I allude to the lightening speed of your lips or speed train of the delivery issuing forth from your mouth, nor the fact that I have witnessed your tongue actually catching fire.

Is it true you are banned from public libraries?


No Marie, there will be no lame jokes coming from me.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Feb 15, 2021)

izwozral said:


> Having not bathed or changed underwear since the start of the first lockdown, I find that people are more than happy not to converse with me. It's either that or it's me growling at them if they get too close.
> Treat everyone as a leper and live is my new motto, there'll be time enough for deep tongue gymnastics when and if we beat this virus.
> 
> Marie, I wouldn't dream of cracking ANY jokes about your motormouth, or inexhaustible lung capacity or even your mile a minute discourse on just about any subject in the world, no matter how insignificant.
> ...



What can I say?
Unfortunately you know me too well!   

Oops! Forgot...


----------



## argoose (Feb 15, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Your right as today I was wiring up my new 10 k/watt electric shower to a live terminal without switching off the power, I felt like a ww2 bomb disposal officer.


Make no mistake, I would have crept up behind you and shouted bang


----------



## argoose (Feb 15, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> Why would you not turn it off ????


Where is the fun in that


----------



## Minisorella (Feb 15, 2021)

Chrisinchip said:


> Sadly, keeping everyone motivated to carry on with these prevention controls will be doubly hard when the impact of the virus on people we know becomes much reduced.


You're right, it will be really tough to stay motivated. All the more reason in my mind not to properly release lockdown until the case numbers are really, really low. Last thing we want is yet another lockdown and enough infections to give the virus the opportunity to come up with a more vicious mutation that the vaccine can't deal with at the moment. I've got everything crossed


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## Minisorella (Feb 16, 2021)

Had my first jab last night, yay! Apart from a very slight warmth and mild ache in my arm, I feel absolutely fine. Got my letter on Saturday and I agonized about whether to wait to hear from my GP to get it done in a surgery hub but in the end I booked a slot at a bigger centre at Crawley Hospital. Amazingly well organised and friendly with a bit of a celebratory atmosphere from all the happy and relieved arm owners   I'm glad I went there because spacing was no issue and there was no hanging around... just brilliant! I wasn't expecting to feel such a sense of relief and peace. Now go forth youngsters and get your arms out


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## FULL TIMER (Feb 20, 2021)

colinm said:


> Nobody knows the long term effects on those that have had CV-19, I didn't know how it had (possibly) effected me until I had blood tests unrelated to CV-19, I think there will be a whole load of people finding out they are diabetic, or have heart disease in future years.


nobody knows the long term effects of the vaccines either who knows what those that have it have got to look forward to in the  distant future,


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## FULL TIMER (Feb 20, 2021)

witzend said:


> It ought to be made clear to them that If they don't have the vaccine when offered they shouldn't be allowed a bed in intensive care if theres someone there who has tried to help them selves by having the Vaccine that needs it


That my friend is a slippery slope


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## FULL TIMER (Feb 20, 2021)

long time dead said:


> For all the people who dont want the jab, i bet they had their Flu jab which is only about 60% effective.


I won't be having the covid one and have never or will ever have a flu jab, think the last jab I had was the TB one.


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## colinm (Feb 20, 2021)

Going back to the OP, cv-19 isn't going away, the vaccine seems very unlikely to eradicate it. The call now from the scientific community to government is " What is an acceptable number of deaths per year?". It then remains up to .gov how much effort they will put in to persuading those at risk to have the vaccine.


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