# Elterwater quarry Lake District



## DiAndy (Jul 6, 2019)

This location is now subject to a parking charge and no overnighting. 
Another bites the dust. :mad2:


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## Canalsman (Jul 6, 2019)

Are you referring to CR Elterwater? There isn't a POI at the quarry...


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## kiwi (Jul 26, 2019)

*CR Elterwater (Cumbria) etc*

The site is CR Elterwater (Cumbria) and it has parking meters installed. Similarly to other sites close by on the adjoining common which used to be free parking places. 8 gbp is the over 6 hour charge but no actual mention of "no overnight parking" so presumably allowed if you can afford it - without any facilities provided! 

Another site in Keswick has suffered worse. LR Keswick B5289 used to be very popular but now has bold "No overnight parking" signs all along the cul-de-sac. This should therefore be excluded from the POI page. Best option is the lakeside car park (next to Theatre by the Lake) where for 1gbp you can park 7pm to 7am - no restrictions I can see and quiet when I stayed there.  
WT High Lodore is derelict and not in current use - so best delete from POI map
I'm guessing the defecating dead beats and litter low life of this world have stuffed us all by their inconsiderate use of such places. Maybe add to the forum advice page "clean up the car park before parking, even if it's not your rubbish" - I always do, in case someone thinks it's me - not a real problem with rubber gloves.


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## Canalsman (Jul 27, 2019)

Thanks for the information.

Regarding the Keswick lay-by, unless the signs make reference to the enforcement mechanism the notices are advisory ...


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## kiwi (Jul 27, 2019)

POI Admin said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Regarding the Keswick lay-by, unless the signs make reference to the enforcement mechanism the notices are advisory ...



So are you suggesting we should ignore it? What happens at 2am when someone knocks you awake and tells you to move on? I had thought about contacting the council to clarify but don't relish the bureaucracy that might be initiated!


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## Canalsman (Jul 27, 2019)

I agree this is difficult. 

This section of road was used for many years by motorhomes without apparent issue. I've stayed there myself.

It is certainly possible to take the council to task about the notices but as you say this may be counterproductive.

I tend not to remove locations which remain legal to use and allow individuals to make up their own minds. Do you know if motorhomes continue to overnight here despite the notices?

If not I'd have thought the occasional one night stay by a single motorhome isn't likely to be a problem.


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## kiwi (Jul 27, 2019)

POI Admin said:


> I agree this is difficult.
> 
> This section of road was used for many years by motorhomes without apparent issue. I've stayed there myself.
> 
> ...



I passed by there a couple of times subsequently and it was very quiet compared with earlier days! It looks like maybe a couple of vans may have stayed overnight but I was not there at night time so can't confirm. The notices were very prominent and lots of them all along the road so one could not claim not to have seen them. Such a shame we seem to have 'officially' lost this site as it was a popular spot. Maybe I'll contact the council and get clarification - I'll let you know (eventually!)


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## kiwi (Aug 12, 2019)

kiwi said:


> I passed by there a couple of times subsequently and it was very quiet compared with earlier days! It looks like maybe a couple of vans may have stayed overnight but I was not there at night time so can't confirm. The notices were very prominent and lots of them all along the road so one could not claim not to have seen them. Such a shame we seem to have 'officially' lost this site as it was a popular spot. Maybe I'll contact the council and get clarification - I'll let you know (eventually!)



Just to keep this post alive, I have contacted the council (twice) but still no reply. Don't hold your breath - watch this space!


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## runnach (Aug 12, 2019)

I personally wouldnt have contacted the council and potentially rattled their cage 

DOnt forget if they want to prevent parking they only have ot issue a PSPO which is far easier than passing by laws or issuing TROs 

Channa


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## kiwi (Aug 13, 2019)

channa said:


> I personally wouldnt have contacted the council and potentially rattled their cage
> 
> DOnt forget if they want to prevent parking they only have ot issue a PSPO which is far easier than passing by laws or issuing TROs
> 
> Channa



What exactly is a PSPO?


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## mistericeman (Aug 13, 2019)

kiwi said:


> What exactly is a PSPO?



Public space protection order....

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014


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## maureenandtom (Aug 13, 2019)

kiwi said:


> What exactly is a PSPO?



https://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forum...otection-order.html?highlight=beware+the+pspo

There are signs that the public is fighting back.  Salford, for example, no longer fines you for (what the coucil says is) swearing.   Bristol (I htnk) students (I think) organised a drinks street party defying the council ban on public drinking.   Bedford cyclists are complaining that a ban on cycliing on the highway is not lawful.   And there are others.


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## mickymost (Aug 13, 2019)

POI Admin said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> Regarding the Keswick lay-by, unless the signs make reference to the enforcement mechanism the notices are advisory ...



Maybe a few vans should attempt a stopover to see what action gets taken if you say no enforcement action could legally be taken just an idea?


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## maureenandtom (Aug 13, 2019)

mickymost said:


> Maybe a few vans should attempt a stopover to see what action gets taken if you say no enforcement action could legally be taken just an idea?



It has worked in the past.   There's no great appetite here for direct action and the successes have been limited - probably because we rarely use such action.   There was limited success at Huttoft and that great bastion of motorhome hate - Scarborough - had to give up on Royal Albert Drive.  Been a one or two others too.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 14, 2019)

mickymost said:


> Maybe a few vans should attempt a stopover to see what action gets taken if you say no enforcement action could legally be taken just an idea?



I've learned that a small number of motorhomers have taken direct action against a PSPO banning overnight parking at Leeming Bar claiming that the PSPO is unlawful in that it does not comply with legislation.    With a limited success.  North Yorks Council have temporarily suspended enforcing the PSPO while it takes legal advice.

The PSPO is aimed at overnighting trucks at the industrial estate there but, to avoid discrimination accusations, it includes all vehicles - including motorhomes.

The claims that the PSPO is unlawful are that 1. - PSPOs must not restict otherwise lawful use of the highway.   This apparently is a specific requirement and a TRO or byelaw must be used - not a PSPO.   The second is that signs on the highway must be authorised by central government and signs for the PSPO are not authorised. The authorising document is called the TSRGD2016.   And that translates as Traffic Signs Regulation something or other.

This might have implications for other councils who have used PSPO for traffic regulation.  Brighton and Hove for a start and Rother;  I know there are others but don't come to mind right now.


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## kiwi (Aug 15, 2019)

*Response from council...*

I've now heard back from the authority with the following (predictable?) response...

"I am writing in response to your query regarding parking near Portinscale.
The “NO OVERNIGHT PARKING” signs have been erected by Cumbria County Council and in agreement with Keswick Town Council as a result of the persistent and long-term overnight parking of camper vans. Such parking had become detrimental to the area (litter, public health concerns) and had a resultant impact on parking availability for people who wish to spend an hour or two in the area. The area is not a campsite or encampment, but it had effectively become so.
The restriction is not enforceable at this point in time, but is being monitored. Should overnight parking persist and continue to be a problem, then it is possible that this signage will be backed up with a fully enforceable Legal Order."

I have responded by hoping the responsible rest of us (who pick up litter and generally clean areas they stay at) will not be prejudiced by further action by the council and suggested instead they enforce their anti litter/unsanitary practices rules. Am I being optimistic?


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## maureenandtom (Aug 15, 2019)

_"The restriction is not enforceable at this point in time, but is being monitored."_

The signs are fraudulent.   Other councils have been compelled to remove such signs.


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

Just read through the thread, makes for sad reading.
Has no one figured out the reason for so many vans being there at any one time just might be because of what is going on nationwide. The fewer the sites that remain available with the growing number of vans being sold, can only lead more of these situations. What’s required is joined up thinking, but all we get is nimbyism at its worse.

The comments about people not being able to stop over due to the vans is bonkers.
If this was the case then why stop overnight parking, or do car owners regularly visit this place at 2am.

It’s just another example of us being treated badly by people in power who have not got a clue, and who hold a bias against us.


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## caledonia (Aug 15, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Just read through the thread, makes for sad reading.
> Has no one figured out the reason for so many vans being there at any one time just might be because of what is going on nationwide. The fewer the sites that remain available with the growing number of vans being sold, can only lead more of these situations. What’s required is joined up thinking, but all we get is nimbyism at its worse.
> 
> The comments about people not being able to stop over due to the vans is bonkers.
> ...



It’s just another example of vans staying for days on end and turning a car park into a campsite. Arrive late and leave early and leave no trace. If there’s already a van there move on and find your own spot. If people were to use common sense locals would be more tolerant.


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

caledonia said:


> It’s just another example of vans staying for days on end and turning a car park into a campsite. Arrive late and leave early and leave no trace. If there’s already a van there move on and find your own spot. If people were to use common sense locals would be more tolerant.



The way I see this is each year Caledonia thousands of new vans are added with less and less places being made available. Also there seems to be a growing number of vans coming over to the uk from Europe adding to the problem. They are not familiar with what’s going on over here, and have difficulties they would not have back home.

Earlier this month I was parked up in the forestry commission carpark overlooking Stromeferry. I arrived around 4 and I was alone. By 7 there were five of us with two French, a Dutch and a German filling the small carpark. Later on two French vans turned up and had to go elsewhere. I told them to head up to the main road were they should get in ok.

Then again at morvich I was the only Brit on the cemetery car park with two German and a French van.
Ratagan was the same again with me being the only Brit amongst Europeans. 

There was no problems at morvich or ratagan with plenty of space, (apart from the wee midges). :mad1:
There are no real problems up here, you can normally find somewhere to go, but not so down south.
I have only once camped in England, I mainly do it up here and twice in Wales.
But if things continue as they are with places being closed, things will only get a whole lot worse.


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

Yes there are idiots amongst us I have no doubt about that.
But there are to many places being lost adding to the problems.
If many of the barriers and signs were removed this would go a long way to preventing overcrowded parking up in the fewer places that still remain.

Honestly in all of my travels over the last three years, I have only once saw a Motorhome owner being inconsideratel blocking others in, and he was French. But when I pointed out to him that what he was doing was not acceptable, he apologised and moved on. Possibly I have been fortunate, or maybe I am just naive, but all I have met are pleasant affable people simply wanting to enjoy their pastime Motorhoming. I don’t see all of this apparent misbehaving by us, but maybe it’s different up here, I really don’t know.
But I have seen plenty of serious problems from others. Litter being dumped, toilets being vandalised, drunkenness, loutish behaviour, setting up barbecues were they are not allowed, racing up and down car parks, playing loud music, and on and on.
It seems to me that there are problems in some car parks, but we always seem to bear the brunt.


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## caledonia (Aug 15, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> The way I see this is each year Caledonia thousands of new vans are added with less and less places being made available. Also there seems to be a growing number of vans coming over to the uk from Europe adding to the problem. They are not familiar with what’s going on over here, and have difficulties they would not have back home.
> 
> Earlier this month I was parked up in the forestry commission carpark overlooking Stromeferry. I arrived around 4 and I was alone. By 7 there were five of us with two French, a Dutch and a German filling the small carpark. Later on two French vans turned up and had to go elsewhere. I told them to head up to the main road were they should get in ok.
> 
> ...



The foreign vans tend to do it the right way arrive late and leave early and spend their day travelling and sight seeing. I agree they do tend to be sheep and don’t mind cramming a lot of vans into a small car park but that’s the aire mentality. As I said it’s the taking up residence that gets locals backs up.


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## runnach (Aug 15, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> I've learned that a small number of motorhomers have taken direct action against a PSPO banning overnight parking at Leeming Bar claiming that the PSPO is unlawful in that it does not comply with legislation.    With a limited success.  North Yorks Council have temporarily suspended enforcing the PSPO while it takes legal advice.
> 
> The PSPO is aimed at overnighting trucks at the industrial estate there but, to avoid discrimination accusations, it includes all vehicles - including motorhomes.
> 
> ...



The part highlighted confuses me slightly Tom, It is my understanding there is no legal right to park on any highway , it is tolerated of course but nothing in legislation that says you can, It would follow therefore by simply parking there is a restriction obstruction of the highway and parking is not a legal use. SO the pSPOs are valid.

Generally and ignoring commercial interests aside, Authorities are of the mindset the reduction of wildspots is of no relevance to the motorhome community, there are plenty of authorised places to camp via the clubs end of their argument, The fact people might not want to pay money  or pay for facilities they dont require is of no relevance facilitlies embellish the "attraction of such places primarily you pay to park /camp for the night

Channa


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## maureenandtom (Aug 15, 2019)

The public outrage usually given by council as reason for restrictions is *never *supported by evidence.  One council was honest enough to admit that its evidence was anecdotal and therefore unreliable  In Kiwi's reply, above, the council did not claim public outrage - though it did, and was proved wrong, when it initially introduced the restriction.  I had thought the council had done it legally and I'm very slightly amused that the council thought to do it without lawful backing.  I wonder if being proved wrong all that time ago influenced the reply now not to claim there had been complaints.  There had been none.

I can not think of even one council restriction that was imposed for the reasons (public complaints) that the counci said existed.  Not one.

There has been a phenomenal increase in ownership of motorhomes in Britain.   And everywhere.    If there was a public outrage about us then the public would not be so keen to join us.  Restrictions are not due to public complaints about us.  They never are.

There will always be whingers - but there are very few complainants.


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> The public outrage usually given by council as reason for restrictions is *never *supported by evidence.  One council was honest enough to admit that its evidence was anecdotal and therefore unreliable  In Kiwi's reply, above, the council did not claim public outrage - though it did, and was proved wrong, when it initially introduced the restriction.  I had thought the council had done it legally and I'm very slightly amused that the council thought to do it without lawful backing.  I wonder if being proved wrong all that time ago influenced the reply now not to claim there had been complaints.  There had been none.
> 
> I can not think of even one council restriction that was imposed for the reasons (public complaints) that the counci said existed.  Not one.
> 
> ...



And sadly they seem to be winning.
As each facility is lost and each new Motorhome registered the problem will only get worse.
What’s required is a national policy, not local nimbyism, dished out by people who are ignorant about us.
And yes some have to behave better, but that will never change.
There will always be a minority of idiots giving us all a name we don’t deserve.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 15, 2019)

channa said:


> The part highlighted confuses me slightly Tom, It is my understanding there is no legal right to park on any highway , it is tolerated of course but nothing in legislation that says you can, It would follow therefore by simply parking there is a restriction obstruction of the highway and parking is not a legal use. SO the pSPOs are valid.
> 
> Generally and ignoring commercial interests aside, Authorities are of the mindset the reduction of wildspots is of no relevance to the motorhome community, there are plenty of authorised places to camp via the clubs end of their argument, The fact people might not want to pay money  or pay for facilities they dont require is of no relevance facilitlies embellish the "attraction of such places primarily you pay to park /camp for the night
> 
> Channa



Thanks Channa.   You'll understand that I'm not involved in the direct action at Leemnig Bar?   Just an interested observer.   Thanks for opening that bit up.

People believe, because we are told so, that the only Hiighway Rights we have are to pass and repass.  Without looking it up - that's only half of it.  The other half is - _and for all other legal purposes_.   So, on the long held principle that we are permitted anything which is not forbidden we can use the Highway for any legal purpose.  So, we have to be notified of a restriction if authority wants restriction..  No Parking.  No Stopping.   Speed Limit ... and so on.  But there has to be a legal restriction.  No overnighting!!

So far as a PSPO on public roads are concerned then I think the direct actioneers are relying on Sections 64 and 65 of the Act;   Here is Section 65 but 64 is worth looking at too.



_(1)A public spaces protection order may not restrict the public right of way over a highway that is—

(a)a special road;

(b)a trunk road;

(c)a classified or principal road;

(d)a strategic road;

(e)a highway in England of a description prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

(f)a highway in Wales of a description prescribed by regulations made by the Welsh Ministers._


North Yorks Council seems to be worried enough to have suspended, temporarily, enforcement of their order.   But the direct actioneers are using other arguments too.  Despite them telling the council in advance of their actions, the council has not yet issued a Fixed Penalty Notice.


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## caledonia (Aug 15, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> And sadly they seem to be winning.
> As each facility is lost and each new Motorhome registered the problem will only get worse.
> What’s required is a national policy, not local nimbyism, dished out by people who are ignorant about us.
> And yes some have to behave better, but that will never change.
> There will always be a minority of idiots giving us all a name we don’t deserve.



Things are changing in Scotland. Us Scots are a canny bunch and we are realising it better to take a few quid of folk than banning them. Findhorn is just one of the latest places to change their attitude to overnight parking in the dunes carpark.


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## Fisherman (Aug 15, 2019)

caledonia said:


> Things are changing in Scotland. Us Scots are a canny bunch and we are realising it better to take a few quid of folk than banning them. Findhorn is just one of the latest places to change their attitude to overnight parking in the dunes carpark.



Yes agreed on that, things are so much better up here.
Also I have nothing against paying for facilities offered, better than barriers and signage.

Scotland is full of great places to park up, using common sense and being considerate of others.

I always feel like a visitor wherever we park up, being tolerated by those who live there.


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