# A20 sidcup Bypass fine...what have I done wrong?



## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

Hello

I am from Switzerland and traveled around the UK some weeks ago. Today I got a invoice from "Euro Parking Collection" with a vague description that I used a toll road without paying toll for. It only says "A20 sidcup Bypass". And it costs roughly 400£ (if I pay within 14 days...if not, it will be much more).

I am not aware that I did something wrong there. Any suggestions?

Regards, Marcel


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## Wanderer015 (Aug 11, 2017)

"Euro Parking Collection" seem to be very good a sending out "dubious fines" if you Google search them and see how many complaints are online about the company, the only toll road is the M25 Dartford river Thames crossing you pay online as there are no toll booths and certainly None on the A20 Sidcup Bypass, ignore it, or ask for more exact photgraphic evidence of where the offence took place


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## andyjanet (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> Hello
> 
> I am from Switzerland and traveled around the UK some weeks ago. Today I got a invoice from "Euro Parking Collection" with a vague description that I used a toll road without paying toll for. It only says "A20 sidcup Bypass". And it costs roughly 400£ (if I pay within 14 days...if not, it will be much more).
> 
> ...




Hi Marcel, looks like it might be a speed camera, £400 seems a bit steep, Andy


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## Wanderer015 (Aug 11, 2017)

andyjanet said:


> Hi Marcel, looks like it might be a speed camera, £400 seems a bit steep, Andy



Only the Police operate speed camera fines they send out an official notice of prosecution


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## andyjanet (Aug 11, 2017)

Wanderer015 said:


> Only the Police operate speed camera fines they send out a notice of prosecution



The internet says its a traffic for london( TFL) speed camera, Do TFL use another system ?


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## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

It says (translated from german): "Use of a Vehicle on a street in a zone liable to charge without paying the fee at the given time and place."

What about that low emission zone thing?


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## Wanderer015 (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> It says (translated from german): "Use of a Vehicle on a street in a zone liable to charge without paying the fee at the given time and place."
> 
> What about that low emission zone thing?


The low emmission zone does start at A20 Sidcup if travelling into London, but this is operated by TFL, Transport for London, I don't think they pursue fines for foreign registered vehicles, it Only applies to Diesel commercial vehicle sthe minumum requiement is Euro3 diesel engine


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2017)

Only thing I can think of is low emission zone too.
Heres a link to show what the fines are, and as already said, it is operated by TFL, and the fine will be a proper Penalty Charge Notice.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone/penalty-charges


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## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

Ok, I got an advice to check my carplate on tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/pay-a-pcn (which is very official)

And there is really a threat listed, saying I didn't pay the Low Emission charge. And my fine was forwarded to an enforcement agent.

Ok, seems to be real.

But now I read that the LEZ charge applies only for commercial diesel vehicles. I drove a private Petrol-Van.

Or does the LEZ also apply for petrol cars?


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## mark61 (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> Ok, I got an advice to check my carplate on tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/pay-a-pcn (which is very official)
> 
> And there is really a threat listed, saying I didn't pay the Low Emission charge. And my fine was forwarded to an enforcement agent.
> 
> ...




No, LEZ is only for diesel and bio diesel at the moment.


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## TJBi (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> Ok, I got an advice to check my carplate on tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/pay-a-pcn (which is very official)
> 
> And there is really a threat listed, saying I didn't pay the Low Emission charge. And my fine was forwarded to an enforcement agent.
> 
> ...



The TFL website says this about foreign-registered vehicles:
About the LEZ - Transport for London
"Vehicles registered outside the UK

If you're driving a vehicle registered outside the UK, you'll need to register it with us to let us know that it meets the LEZ emissions standards so we can add your vehicle to our database. 

It's important that you do this, because if you drive in the LEZ without registering, even if your vehicle meets the standards, you'll have to pay the daily charge, or may receive a Penalty Charge Notice."

The point would appear to be that they cannot determine whether your vehicle meets standards or is not chargeable because of your fuel type, and they impose a duty on drivers of foreign-registered vehicles to register with them in advance in order to prove that they are exempt/compliant.


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## harrow (Aug 11, 2017)

Check your vehicle on the link below,

Check if your vehicle is affected - Transport for London

:idea::idea::idea:


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## ian81 (Aug 11, 2017)

This is also a salutory reminder that certain traffic offences committed in other Euopean countries can find their way back to the UK.


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## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

I just calles TFL. They were not very helpful and gave me the phone number of the company that sent me the bill (obviousley TFL does not send fines to other countries).
But there, nobody answers.

I hope I can still do something against it. Even if my car was not registred :-(


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## alcam (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> I just calles TFL. They were not very helpful and gave me the phone number of the company that sent me the bill (obviousley TFL does not send fines to other countries).
> But there, nobody answers.
> 
> I hope I can still do something against it. Even if my car was not registred :-(



Not sure how enforceable the fine is ? Pretty likely somebody on here will know .
If not enforceable you could just ignore unless you intend to drive in London with same vehicle .
Otherwise contact them don't , necessarily , accept first response


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## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

I wrote the TFL an email with some questions. Hope I'll get an answer soon.

The really hairy thing is that the penalty, according to the TFL site is 500£, but only half of it if paid within 14 days. 
The EPC PLC wants to charge me 420£ within the first 14 days. That makes bloody 270£ just for the collection company. 

I think this is highly unfair. Any UK resident would have to pay less than half of it.

Really makes me think if I'll ever spend my holidays in the UK again. It's a nice way to say thanks to someone who spent some 30 weeks in the last 10 years there.


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## harrow (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> I wrote the TFL an email with some questions. Hope I'll get an answer soon.
> 
> The really hairy thing is that the penalty, according to the TFL site is 500£, but only half of it if paid within 14 days.
> The EPC PLC wants to charge me 420£ within the first 14 days. That makes bloody 270£ just for the collection company.
> ...


I live in London low emission zone, so I have to pay or buy vehicles that comply with the rules.

I could have an old diesel camper and only do a couple of thousand miles, BUT that is not allowed.


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## winks (Aug 11, 2017)

Horbach said:


> I wrote the TFL an email with some questions. Hope I'll get an answer soon.
> 
> The really hairy thing is that the penalty, according to the TFL site is 500£, but only half of it if paid within 14 days.
> The EPC PLC wants to charge me 420£ within the first 14 days. That makes bloody 270£ just for the collection company.
> ...



And there's the issue Marcel.

TFL expect you as a visitor to know about their arcane rules and then will not talk directly to you when you inadvertently fall foul of those same rules. At least Dick Turpin turned up to the gig.

I do feel you are being very badly treated by this faceless bunch of legitimised thieves and I am ashamed to be associated, by dint of nationality, with them. For what its worth I apologise for their high handed and cowardly action.

Cheers

H


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## winks (Aug 11, 2017)

I understand your point ***** but this shower are a quango of sorts and not the law.

Bloody disgrace to push on with this penalty in my opinion.

Cheers

H


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## Wanderer015 (Aug 11, 2017)

Everyone is missing the major point !! Marcel was driving a Petrol engined van, which is NOT subject to the LEZ, Low emmission zone !! you can drive Any Petrol engined vehicle into London, maybe not so in a few more years time though


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## Horbach (Aug 11, 2017)

Wanderer015 said:


> Everyone is missing the major point !! Marcel was driving a Petrol engined van, which is NOT subject to the LEZ, Low emmission zone !! you can drive Any Petrol engined vehicle into London, maybe not so in a few more years time though



Thank you. There are even more points:

Point 2) By reading their site carefully, I will also get the same fine for not registering my van in advance (so the TFL knows it is 'clean' and prevent them from sending me a fine). It's a very high penalty for just not carefully reading their website. There are lower fines for much worse delicts. How fast would I have do drive to get the same fine for speeding?

Point 3) TFL does not send the penalties to adresses abroad. They hand the bills over to a collecting company which sends them, also charging for their 'services' which cost more than the fine itself. So the first-14-day-charge turns into 420£, which is is an incredible amount for doing nothing.

Regards, Marcel (still fuming)


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## winks (Aug 11, 2017)

Well said Marcel.

It amazes me just how supine we seem to have become here in the U.K. when it comes to issues of this type.

Cheers

H


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## ricc (Aug 12, 2017)

id be tempted to ignore it.... costs for a collection company trying to collect abroad will be higher than the fine so they will send a few theatening letters then probably drop it.


or you could reply to the first one giving the  "name and address" of the person who borrowed the vehicle for their holiday. then any further letters respond with a threat to take them to court for harrassment ... they wont want the hassle of an action in a european court.


also id research the legality of tfl requiring all foreign vehicles to be registered in case they stray into london especially if theyre exempt from charging..   perhaps a facebook campaign to get all europe to flood tfl with regestrations.


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## skippy (Aug 13, 2017)

*A20 bypass fine*

Is there a loophole here; Foreign registered vehicles have 6 months to register a vehicle with british Dvla this is an Eu directive. The onus is to register with UK database does this also include TFL.


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## mark61 (Aug 13, 2017)

I certainly wouldn't pay.
When you go to the LEZ website, the first paragraph has this included,  "encourage the most polluting heavy diesel vehicles driving in London to become cleaner."

If you are driving a Petrol motor, why would you read further?

And if you do, well the next reasonable link to visit, is the "check if your vehicle is affected"  Click on that, then where? Well, the "check vehicle by type" link seems a sensible way to go.

Work your way through the online wizard page, select Motor caravan or ambulance then next, "Does the vehicle run on diesel / bio-diesel?"  select no and then next and it clearly states 

"You are not affected by the Low Emission Zone.
 You do not need to take any action."

No mention of registering, just you do not need to take any action. Well, thats clearly not the truth.


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## bilbao camper (Aug 13, 2017)

As the ofeence was comitted by a person  and vechile reg outside the EU it is not enforcible under EU law


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## colinm (Aug 13, 2017)

Couple of points, Switzerland might not be in EU but they have a series of bilateral agreements which allow them in the single market.
Other EU countries such as France operate similar system where even if your vehicle meets the standards not registering beforehand is an offence.


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## sparrks (Aug 13, 2017)

From the TFL website:

[h=2]Vehicles registered outside the United Kingdom[/h] You will need to register your vehicle with us if: 


Your vehicle meets LEZ emissions standards
Your vehicle qualifies for an exemption or discount. Read more about exemptions and discounts


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## REC (Aug 13, 2017)

[No message]


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## colinm (Aug 13, 2017)

Now this is interesting, tfl seem to indicate that all vehicles must be registered, but i've come across a FOI answer from 2012, don't know if they have changed anything since.



> The process in place requires the image of such a vehicle observed within
> the LEZ to be reviewed by our European Debt Recovery Agent. The Agent will
> first identify the country of origin of the vehicle and then approach that
> country’s vehicle licensing authority to obtain the required vehicle
> ...


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## Horbach (Aug 13, 2017)

On the front page of the LEZ (Low Emission Zone - Transport for London), it is clearly written:
"All non GB vehicles affected need to register in advance". I think this says it all. As a petrol car, I wasn't affected, had nothing to register.

I'll set up a letter, fax is to the EPL PLC and the TfL to tell them I wasn't supposed to register and look what happens.

I don't expect the EPL PLC to comply, because all they want is my money, not justice.
There are some hair-rising reports how they treat their victims, even when they are able to prove they haven't done anything wrong. i.e. parking tickets in countries they've never been. It's a shame that councils work with such companies.


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## Horbach (Aug 15, 2017)

I managed now to send them a formal objection. Case is frozen, the need up to 8 weeks to decide. Remember how much time they gave me to pay...


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## colinm (Aug 15, 2017)

Horbach said:


> I managed now to send them a formal objection. Case is frozen, the need up to 8 weeks to decide. Remember how much time they gave me to pay...





Back in the early days of the Congestion Charge (the other PITA for london), I was sent a PCN for not having paid, a quick check at work and it transpired the sectary had booked me in for wrong day. I challenged PCN  as it had been paid but just for wrong day (well it was worth trying), at time this was supposed to stop the process until a decision had been made,  well it must have got them scratching heads as it took months to make a decision, and in the meantime further demands where made followed by treats of debt collection, now this pissed me off somewhat, so I asked that it be decided in court. Two days later I got a letter that they would drop the case on this one off occasion, but I would receive a fine if it reoccurred.  I believe the reason it was dropped was because they hadn't followed procedure and wanted it brushed under the carpet. I note they have now tightened up the regs.


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## Debroos (Aug 15, 2017)

Steady on. There are many intelligent toilet cleaners who also have oodles of common sense!


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## Caz (Aug 15, 2017)

Maybe they should introduce a system like the French Crit Air, where all vehicles entering the zone have to display a sticker showing their emissions.


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## didds (Aug 16, 2017)

Caz said:


> Maybe they should introduce a system like the French Crit Air, where all vehicles entering the zone have to display a sticker showing their emissions.



That still however requires the entering driver/vehicle owner to be aware that is what is required.

didds


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## IanH (Aug 16, 2017)

As you prove quite often!!


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## GWAYGWAY (Aug 16, 2017)

I was on the rough end of this regulation with my Chausson van and they told me I had entered the LEZ and a £1000 fine was required,, BUT they allowed for one period of conversion to have the vehicle upgraded as It was the first time it had gone into London ( an enforced diversion from  the bridge closure, down the A13 and back out the other side to the A2) Therefore I did not have to pay it that time.  I went and bought a EURO 6 van but that wasn't recognised either as Hymer was not a recognised make. They did put it on the approved list after I pointed out it was a Sprinter with a different body on it.
The big thing with this case is that there is NO INFORMATION given out to any foreign visitor coming to this country about the LEZ and sod all on the approaches either that makes any sense, I knew nothing  about it at all other that it was for big lorries going in.  Natural justices would tell me to tell THEM to get stuffed for harassment and demanding money with threats. both criminal offences, or they were.


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## Horbach (Aug 16, 2017)

Next time I travel across the UK, I will write an email to all town councils affected of my journey and ask them if I have to register my car in advance, refering to my experiences in London.

Meanwhile, I could send an online objection to EPC PLC and wait for a response. Shortly after that, TFL sent me a response to my questions I sent them. They wrote that the fine is just a warning and I have to pay nothing yet. But EPC clearly asked for money.



> The letter you've received is a warning letter and on this occasion no charges have been incurred.
> Warning letters are sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle automatically when a Non Compliant vehicle enters the
> LEZ for the first time and no daily charge has been paid.


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## alcam (Aug 17, 2017)

Legalised fraud . Fortunately the OP didn't cough up but how many people have ?


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