# Wintering in Portugal



## Larnie

Hi, a friend of mine spends 6 months in Portugal over the winter, he plans to go out in early October as he has the last few years. As it is before the brexit date on the 31st, can anyone foresee him having any problems with a no deal.
 Thanks.


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## Pauljenny

Ask Boris...:scared:


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## Pauljenny

Ps..
Welcome to the website ..
Have fun and adventures..


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## trevskoda

Get a southern irish passport.


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## John H

Larnie said:


> Hi, a friend of mine spends 6 months in Portugal over the winter, he plans to go out in early October as he has the last few years. As it is before the brexit date on the 31st, can anyone foresee him having any problems with a no deal.
> Thanks.



We are heading for Spain on 1st October. If there is a no-deal Brexit on 31st, then the three month clock will start ticking. We are flying back for 3 weeks over Christmas, so if the worst happens we will have until 18th February before we have to leave the EU or be illegal immigrants. We will be going complete with International Driving Permits and back-up medical insurance ready to kick in on 31st because EHIC will disappear with Brexit (although there may be a grace period). We will also keep an eye on the vehicle insurance situation and if we need a green card will get one sent out straight away. I think that just about covers it - unless anyone else knows of something else.....


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## daygoboy

The only certain way of staying legally in the EU after 90 days would be 
ironically, to commit a crime. Driving the wrong way around a Portuguese 
roundabout at least 2 circuits should get you another 90 days!


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## Jo001

John H said:


> If there is a no-deal Brexit on 31st, then the three month clock will start ticking. ..



I don't really understand all the ins and outs but I am sure I heard/read that if there is no deal, there is no transition period. Is the three month clock a different thing?


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## Robina

Jo001 said:


> I don't really understand all the ins and outs but I am sure I heard/read that if there is no deal, there is no transition period. Is the three month clock a different thing?



Three months (90 days) is the amount of time citizens of 'third countries' are allowed to stay in the EU. We will be a third country once we leave - just like Australia or the United States. I believe it is actually 90 days in any 180 day period so, effectively, you can spend six months over there if you get your timings right. There are ways of staying longer with visas or residency but then it is more complicated than I understand!


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## Canalsman

No you can't spend six months as you imply.

It's a moving timescale so once you've spent your 90 days you have to leave the EU for a further 90 days before you can return.


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## Moped

***** said:


> It is a rolling 90 days if you know what I mean
> For example you could spend 60 days in Euroland, come home and return 60 days later and spend a further 60 days
> By the time you get to the 30 day of your second holiday, you have now reached the 90 day in 180, but the first 30 days of your first holiday would come off your 90 day limit as you are now past the point that they would count in current 180 days
> The rule is 90 days in 180 and not a 90 day break after reaching 180
> That is how i read it!
> A little thinking as not quite straight forward



If you do at the start 30 uk +60 overseas +60 uk +30 overseas then new 180 period 30 overseas then 60 uk then 60 overseas then 30 uk and then new 180 period repeating first cycle then it may work. 

But does the first 30 days in the UK count as part of the start of the first 180 day period, or does this countdown start when you first go overseas? You may need a short trip of a day or two to Calais at the beginning to start the 180 cycle. 

And are you permitted to be overseas at the start of the overlap of the new 180 day cycle without getting some sort of acknowledgement on your biometric passport that a new rolling period has started?


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## Jo001

Orkney is looking more and more appealing ...


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## daygoboy

It appears to be that at this moment the only thing you can count on with reasonable
certainty is that you'll be able to enter the EU for up to 90 days. Everything else at this
stage is speculation, best you can do is make provision for substituting alternative
provision for the privileges that will no longer exist, such as the EHIC, and as JohnH 
lists.

Me, I'll just go for the usual +90days  in mind and hope for a temporary reprieve/amnesty 
on the no more than 90 day stipulation,
Trust me! they'll give those of us there at the time 14 days notice to remove ourselves forthwith.
But I won't be that surprised to get a fine!

After all we are supposed to register after 90 days even now, but this was mostly obeyed
in the breach rather than the observance. ! So many of us aren't abiding by the rules even now.


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> It appears to be that at this moment the only thing you can count on with reasonable
> certainty is that you'll be able to enter the EU for up to 90 days. Everything else at this
> stage is speculation, best you can do is make provision for substituting alternative
> provision for the privileges that will no longer exist, such as the EHIC, and as JohnH
> lists.
> 
> Me, I'll just go for the usual +90days  in mind and hope for a temporary reprieve/amnesty
> on the no more than 90 day stipulation,
> Trust me! they'll give those of us there at the time 14 days notice to remove ourselves forthwith.
> But I won't be that surprised to get a fine!
> 
> After all we are supposed to register after 90 days even now, but this was mostly
> observed in the breach ! So many of us aren't abiding by the rules even now.



I don't think you can rely on 14 days notice. The big problem is not the fine (if any) but the fact that, after 90 days, you will not be insured. So, if you have an accident in your motorhome, your insurance company will not pay out - that could be very expensive if a thrid party is involved. Similarly, after 90 days from 31 October, any medical insurance (including EHIC if they allow a grace period) will be invalid. The Spanish/Portuguese authorities will not contact you to tell you this! 

Further, if you ignore the 90 day rule and are lucky enough not to have an accident or get ill, then remember that, as from the end of December 2020 you will need to apply under the new ETIAS system for entry to the EU. If you have already broken the law by overstaying then there is a very good chance they won't issue you with permission. Thus, next year (and for as many years as they deem fit) you won't be able to go to the EU at all. It is just not worth trying to get round the system - and as was stated above, extension visas are difficult to get and not cheap.

PS the breach you refer to works for EU citizens but remember, we will not be EU citizens.


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## John H

Jo001 said:


> I don't really understand all the ins and outs but I am sure I heard/read that if there is no deal, there is no transition period. Is the three month clock a different thing?



HI - yes, you are correct. If there is no deal, there is no transition period. The 3 month rule (90 days in any rolling period of 180) applies to all non-EU/Schengen citizens and would immediately apply to us in the event of a no-deal.


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## daygoboy

Of course I'm not relying on 14 days, or even the fine,
note the exclamation marks.'
I prefaced everything with the statement 'the only thing you can
reasonably count on is 90 days'. As for vehicle insurance I'll just 
keep an ear to the ground, there will be a way around potential problems
possibly a phone call and a payment to get an insurance extension
to provide temporary cover, who knows. But there will be a way around
difficulties should they arise.
I'm not so sure that insurers will be able to easily opt out of their obligations in
any case, on policies taken out at the present time but happen to expire  
after leaving the EU. So I for one would be ok for almost a year. 

But I won't be taking any measures yet, I'll just plod on as before 
until further notice, & based on actual facts as presented.. I'm certainly not going to
worry about what may or may not happen.


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## John H

Moped said:


> If you do at the start 30 uk +60 overseas +60 uk +30 overseas then new 180 period 30 overseas then 60 uk then 60 overseas then 30 uk and then new 180 period repeating first cycle then it may work.
> 
> But does the first 30 days in the UK count as part of the start of the first 180 day period, or does this countdown start when you first go overseas? You may need a short trip of a day or two to Calais at the beginning to start the 180 cycle.
> 
> And are you permitted to be overseas at the start of the overlap of the new 180 day cycle without getting some sort of acknowledgement on your biometric passport that a new rolling period has started?



There is no "new" 180 day period - it is a rolling period and the effect is that you cannot spend three months in the EU without then leaving the EU for another 3 months. Technically, you could spend one day in the EU, one day out and so on for ever but I don't think that pattern would be relevant to most of us!


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> Of course I'm not relying on 14 days, or even the fine,
> note the exclamation marks.'
> I prefaced everything with the statement 'the only thing you can
> reasonably count on is 90 days'. As for vehicle insurance I'll just
> keep an ear to the ground, there will be a way around potential problems
> possibly a phone call and a payment to get an insurance extension
> to provide temporary cover, who knows. But there will be a way around
> difficulties should they arise.
> 
> But I won't be taking any measures yet, I'll just plod on as before
> until further notice, & based on actual facts as presented.. I'm certainly not going to
> worry about what may or may not happen.



I think you miss the point as far as insurance goes. If you are in the EU illegally (as you would be after 90 days in any 180) then there is no way you can get an extension. Your insurance company will not insure you if you are breaking the law.

Similarly with medical cover.


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## phillybarbour

Transition period highly likely in the event if no deal, but it’s not certain.


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## kenspain

Larnie said:


> Hi, a friend of mine spends 6 months in Portugal over the winter, he plans to go out in early October as he has the last few years. As it is before the brexit date on the 31st, can anyone foresee him having any problems with a no deal.
> Thanks.



I have been trying to find out from my boy what he thinks will happen he is in the Guardia Civil Trafico, Because I have a friend that comes over  in September for 2 
months traveling round Spain then leaves his motorhome on our land then fly's back for a month for work then comes back after Christmas and go's to Portugal for the winter and stays at our place down there, My boy said at the moment no one knows what will happen he said that they have been taking about  is ticket machine giving out a ticket at the ports with a date and time on them these you must keep in the van under your tax disc on your windscreen. :mad1:


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## John H

phillybarbour said:


> Transition period highly likely in the event if no deal, but it’s not certain.



The transition period that May negotiated is dependent on a deal. If there is no deal then there is nothing to transition to. Thus a transition period is highly unlikely in the event of no deal.


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## John H

kenspain said:


> I have been trying to find out from my boy what he thinks will happen he is in the Guardia Civil Trafico, Because I have a friend that comes over  in September for 2
> months traveling round Spain then leaves his motorhome on our land then fly's back for a month for work then comes back after Christmas and go's to Portugal for the winter and stays at our place down there, My boy said at the moment no one knows what will happen he said that they have been taking about  is ticket machine giving out a ticket at the ports with a date and time on them these you must keep in the van under your tax disc on your windscreen. :mad1:



If there is no deal, your passport will be stamped on arrival and so you will be carrying a permanent record with you of whether or not you are legal.


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## John H

Perhaps the simplest way to look at this is that if there is no deal, then, from 1st November 2019, the same rules will apply to us as apply to, say, Americans and Australians now. Nothing new needs to be invented; the rules for citizens of non-EU countries are clear. So if you want to know what will happen, ask an Australian etc. 

If there is a deal (looking unlikely at present) then it clearly all depends on the nature of that deal but the transition period (to end December 2020) will kick in and, in effect, nothing will change until then.


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## daygoboy

John H said:


> I think you miss the point as far as insurance goes. If you are in the EU illegally (as you would be after 90 days in any 180) then there is no way you can get an extension. Your insurance company will not insure you if you are breaking the law.
> 
> Similarly with medical cover.





Firstly the insurers would have to prove you were in the country illegally.

An insurance extension could easily be provided. Cases of special circumstances 
could be enacted say in event of breakdown and repair, hospitalisation, then driving 
of a vehicle beyond a specified period could easily be introduced, the insurance 
companies would no doubt be happy to oblige with a suitable premium payment. 
Think of it like driving your car to an MOT station with a prearranged booking...legal, 
but if not prearranged illegal. 

You redacted the important point I made, and that is the contract I just signed with
my insurer is based on conditions as of now, they can't just change it without notice,
so I'm ok for nearly a year as far as I'm concerned. At next renewal I'll take decisions 
on the situation as it stands at that time, which should have then resolved any  issues...hopefully.

Have you stayed longer than 90 days in say, Spain with or without
van, if yes, were you strictly legal, and what did your insurer have
to say.


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## daygoboy

kenspain said:


> I have been trying to find out from my boy what he thinks will happen he is in the Guardia Civil Trafico, Because with a date and time on them these you must keep in the van under your tax disc on your windscreen. :mad1:



Your lad is going to be spending weeks looking for a tax disc on a UK car these days ken:lol-061:


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> Firstly the insurers would have to prove you were in the country illegally.
> 
> An insurance extension could easily be provided. Cases of special circumstances
> could be enacted say in event of breakdown and repair, hospitalisation, then driving
> of a vehicle beyond a specified period could easily be introduced, the insurance
> companies would no doubt be happy to oblige with a suitable premium payment.
> Think of it like driving your car to an MOT station with a prearranged booking...legal,
> but if not prearranged illegal.
> 
> You redacted the important point I made, and that is the contract I just signed with
> my insurer is based on conditions as of now, they can't just change it without notice,
> so I'm ok for nearly a year as far as I'm concerned. At next renewal I'll take decisions
> on the situation as it stands at that time, which should have then resolved any  issues...hopefully.
> 
> Have you stayed longer than 90 days in say, Spain with or without
> van, if yes, were you strictly legal, and what did your insurer have
> to say.



Proof is no problem. You will either have a stamp in your passport on entry or (if you entered prior to 31st October) you will have 90 days from 1st November. 

Your contract with your insurance company is based on you keeping within the law of whichever country you are in. If the law changes or if you claim not to know the law, it makes not a jot of difference. It is up to you to keep appraised of changes in the law and you won't get away with it if you claim you did not know. You will always be able to find an insurance company willing to take your premium but the crunch (literally) comes when you try to make a claim and we all know that insurance companies need very few excuses to avoid paying out. Being in the country illegally (easy to prove) is the perfect "out" for them. Throw away your money if you like, but I won't be joining you. 

Yes, I have regularly stayed more than 90 days in Spain and my insurance company provides me with insurance for 12 months cover within the EU. That can and will change if we leave without a deal.


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## daygoboy

John H said:


> Yes, I have regularly stayed more than 90 days in Spain and my insurance company provides me with insurance for 12 months cover within the EU. That can and will change if we leave without a deal.



So I presume you applied for residency to comply with the law?

You worry too much over things that may happen, no one is in
agreement over what may or may not happen, I just can't be 
arsed preparing for the unknown.


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## Robina

POI Admin said:


> No you can't spend six months as you imply.
> 
> It's a moving timescale so once you've spent your 90 days you have to leave the EU for a further 90 days before you can return.



Yes - I was not specific about that but you can spend up to six months in the EU in any one year. Just not six months in a row.


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> So I presume you applied for residency to comply with the law?
> 
> You worry too much over things that may happen, no one is in
> agreement over what may or may not happen, I just can't be
> arsed preparing for the unknown.



No - as was said earlier, the requirement for EU nationals to register after 90 days is honoured in the breach. But that only applies to EU nationals - and largely because it would be difficult to prove where you were anyway. All that changes when we become non-EU citizens and have our passports stamped. Remember, the 90 day rule applies to the whole of the Schengen Zone, so it doesn't matter whether you are in one member state or several. Once your 90 days are up you are illegal.

I am going to Spain this winter and I won't be worrying. However, I also believe in sensible planning and, while I suspect that many Brits will find themselves in deep water by burying their heads in the sand, I will be fully prepared. And that includes coming back to the UK in mid-February if necessary.


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## daygoboy

John H said:


> No - as was said earlier, the requirement for EU nationals to register after 90 days is honoured in the breach. But that only applies to EU nationals - and largely because it would be difficult to prove where you were.
> 
> I am going to Spain this winter and I won't be worrying.



No, you reply, so as far as your insurance is concerned are you 100% legal, don't forget 
big claim= big investigation  Drive safely!

You won't be worrying, (future tense) probably because you're worrying now. Whereas I'm
not worrying now, because there may not be anything to worry about in the future. Which of
course is what you wish for? unless that is you're harbouring a little Schaudenfruedeishness!
Apologise for a touch of the Donald Rumsfelds there!


A difference in approach, we'll just have to see.


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## rugbyken

i’ve been trying to persuade jan to spend a couple of months in morocco for years might get somewhere with that now, a few years ago there was a motion raised at the brittany ferries shareholders meeting regarding indirect ferries from france to morocco starting from poole uk to st nazaire - Gijon - tangier’s , only the st nazaire gijon section ever got tried & that got taken up by a different company & folded after about one season, the whole sea journey would have been 1700 mls & i’m not that good a sailor ,
     brittany ferries have one new huge ferry a year on order for the next 5 years so they think we’ll still be travelling,


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> No, you reply, so as far as your insurance is concerned are you 100% legal, don't forget
> big claim= big investigation  Drive safely!
> 
> You won't be worrying, (future tense) probably because you're worrying now. Whereas I'm
> not worrying now, because there may not be anything to worry about in the future. Which of
> course is what you wish for? unless that is you're harbouring a little Schaudenfruedeishness!
> Apologise for a touch of the Donald Rumsfelds there!
> 
> 
> A difference in approach, we'll just have to see.



One of the advantages of being married to a lawyer is that she reads all the small print. Yes, I am 100% legal and intend to stay that way. 

And there will not be anything to worry about if you are fully prepared for all the eventualities. We will not be caught out but I am willing to bet my pension that there are plenty who will because they refuse to consider the obvious. Taking sensible precautions does not equal worrying.

My advice to anyone is that they should check what MAY lie ahead and that way they are less likely to come a cropper. There are enough blind idiots leading this country at the moment without us adding to that number


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## daygoboy

rugbyken said:


> iÂ’ve been trying to persuade jan to spend a couple of months in morocco for years might get somewhere with that now, a few years ago there was a motion raised at the brittany ferries shareholders meeting regarding indirect ferries from france to morocco starting from poole uk to st nazaire - Gijon - tangierÂ’s , only the st nazaire gijon section ever got tried & that got taken up by a different company & folded after about one season, the whole sea journey would have been 1700 mls & iÂ’m not that good a sailor ,
> brittany ferries have one new huge ferry a year on order for the next 5 years so they think weÂ’ll still be travelling,



A decade or so ago Acciona gave the 'Ferry UK to Morocco' idea a go, even 
got to publishing a website with booking pages, I tried to get a booking or at 
least a price. But it folded up without a single sailing. I guess the bean counters 
got their abacus's out and decided it wasn't a viable proposition. 
Some think a similar service might be started up, given the present circs. but I
bet it won't be properly considered until B****T is settled, so I wouldn't hold
my breath!


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## daygoboy

John H said:


> One of the advantages of being married to a lawyer is that she reads all the small print. Yes, I am 100% legal and intend to stay that way.
> 
> And there will not be anything to worry about if you are fully prepared for all the eventualities. We will not be caught out but I am willing to bet my pension that there are plenty who will because they refuse to consider the obvious. Taking sensible precautions does not equal worrying.
> 
> My advice to anyone is that they should check what MAY lie ahead and that way they are less likely to come a cropper. There are enough blind idiots leading this country at the moment without us adding to that number




Prepared for all the eventualities eh?   We shall see, I'm never 100% certain and I 
certainly know of lawyers that read the small print and sometimes misinterpret it. 
Taking things as they come gives me a mindset that allows manoeuvring should circumstances 
dictate. I give no advice to anyone, just state what I'm going to do at this moment with the limited
information I have to hand, because blind idiots abound & from every quarter on this particular issue.


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> Prepared for all the eventualities eh?   We shall see, I'm never 100% certain and I
> certainly know of lawyers that read the small print and sometimes misinterpret it.
> Taking things as they come gives me a mindset that allows manoeuvring should circumstances
> dictate. I give no advice to anyone, just state what I'm going to do at this moment with the limited
> information I have to hand, because blind idiots abound & from every quarter on this particular issue.



Of course, no-one can be 100% sure of anything but, as the boy sprouts always say: "be prepared". Some like to take risks; others prefer not to be taken by surprise. You are in the former group; I am in the latter. Those who take a "devil-may-care" attitude to post Brexit travel in the EU may get away with it the first time but are likely to have their options limited when they are refused an ETIAS stamp to get into the EU next year. I will not be in that group.

PS the information is not limited if you take the trouble to look for it.


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## daygoboy

'Yes I am 100% certain,' your use, and 'honoured in the breach' not exactly
a strict legal term, more suggestive of winging it. But nevertheless something 
I'm counting on should the 90 day requirement be implemented due to a hard 
one!.
I just don't see 5000 overstaying motorhoming pensioners queuing up at the 
Spanish frontier posts waiting to be manacled somehow. There will almost certainly an
'honouring in the breach'. If not, then I can only hope that there's WIFI connection at
the Penitentiario to pass the time.
This is not to say I won't be making different decisions in 6 months time,
or the following year though, now that would be stupid, because we should all be up to
speed by then, and well informed!


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> 'Yes I am 100% certain,' your use, and 'honoured in the breach' not exactly
> a strict legal term, more suggestive of winging it. But nevertheless something
> I'm counting on should the 90 day requirement be implemented due to a hard
> one!.
> I just don't see 5000 overstaying motorhoming pensioners queuing up at the
> Spanish frontier posts waiting to be manacled somehow. There will almost certainly an
> 'honouring in the breach'. If not, then I can only hope that there's WIFI connection at
> the Penitentiario to pass the time.
> This is not to say I won't be making different decisions in 6 months time,
> or the following year though, now that would be stupid, because we should all be up to
> speed by then, and well informed!



The "100% certain" referred to the current legality of my vehicle insurance. That I am sure of - providing I keep to the rules. I am just as sure that my insurance (and everybody else's) will not pay out in the event of an accident if you overstay your legal limit in any country that you are entitled to drive in.

I never claimed that "honoured in the breach" was a legal term - simply a de facto one. Some of us have indeed approached the Spanish authorities in the past and been told that we should not bother. That is not "winging it". Those who wing it might get away with it some times but that does not make it a sensible approach.  

I also never said that hundreds of Brits will be manacled at Spanish ports - or anywhere else. In fact I said that, if you are lucky enough to not have an accident or get ill, you may think you have got away with it - until it comes to trying to get into the EU next year.

PS if you do overstay then I would choose your ferry route home with care. While the Spanish are well-known for not imposing penalties, the Dutch and French take a more robust attitude. I recently read of an American tourist who was extremely indignant at having "illegal immigrant" actually stamped in her passport by the Dutch authorities


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## daygoboy

Ah John, John, you obviously didn't read my post #17 ! Regarding current
insurance legalities.
You've approached the Spanish authorities?, and they said don't bother,
presumably this is in writing? Otherwise not necessarily worth the paper
it isn't written on. Not that I care.

I never said I was quoting you, as regards the 5,000, that's just
my imagination, combined with the loaves and fishes fairy story!
I personally don't see that sort of thing eventuating for the extent of
an unofficial transitional period, even if no official period. exists.

I'm very familiar with the Spanish character, I'm counting on a live and 
let live approach,  for a while anyway, and at least until the police and border
authorities show any real concern.


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> Ah John, John, you obviously didn't read my post #17 ! Regarding current
> insurance legalities.
> You've approached the Spanish authorities?, and they said don't bother,
> presumably this is in writing? Otherwise not necessarily worth the paper
> it isn't written on. Not that I care.
> 
> I never said I was quoting you, as regards the 5,000, that's just
> my imagination, combined with the loaves and fishes fairy story!
> I personally don't see that sort of thing eventuating for the extent of
> an unofficial transitional period, even if no official period. exists.
> 
> I'm very familiar with the Spanish character, I'm counting on a live and
> let live approach,  for a while anyway, and at least until the police and border
> authorities show any real concern.



Yes I did read your post no.17 and answered it. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the oft-repeated fact that if you break the law then the insurance company will not pay out - regardless of how long you think you are covered for and regardless of how much you have paid in premiums. 

I am not sure what point you are trying to make about registering with the authorities but it doesn't matter anyway because a completely different situation applies with non-EU citizens - which is what we are likely to be after 31st October.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter what penalty may or may not be imposed at the port but what matters is:

a) the lack of valid insurance for vehicle and medical needs; and
b) the granting (or lack of it) of permission to re-enter the EU under the ETIAS scheme.

It matters not a jot that the Spanish have a live and let live attitude. They are not the problem.


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## daygoboy

Let me make it clear this is what 'I' will be doing at the immediate time....nothing.

Between now and when I depart in November I will keep a weather eye out for
any information or advice that is helpful and from an authoritive source eg a 
foreign government dept. I will act sensibly on this information.

When I go, I will go with the intention of staying c. 5 months, When I arrive I will note any news
of troubles being experienced by UK citizens at borders as a result of overstaying or otherwise,
there may be none. If the authorities are taking draconian actions then I will consider
leaving before my 90 days are up, I'm hopeful for period of grace, there's no guarantee
but definitely a possibility, the Spanish are relaxed on 90 days at the present time
they may be in the future. As I've previously said I'm leaving with the intention and
mindset of staying 5 months not 3 months.


EHIC card I will do nothing about this at the moment. It may well be that the EU will
let us retain this right, (costs them nothing). In November, again when things 
are clearer I will consider my options.

Vehicle Insurance, my current policy covers me, 180 days in EU no distinction made on
whether I'm there illegally or not.
Green Card my current Insurance states that my documents are a replacement for this.

IDP I'm considering getting this before November. But not just yet, no panic.

As I've stated next season is a different question altogether, we should be much better
informed by then. Naturally I will deal with the situation as it then stands.


And that's the last words on what I'm doing or not doing.


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> Let me make it clear this is what 'I' will be doing at the immediate time....nothing.
> 
> Between now and when I depart in November I will keep a weather eye out for
> any information or advice that is helpful and from an authoritive source eg a
> foreign government dept. I will act sensibly on this information.
> 
> When I go, I will go with the intention of staying c. 5 months, When I arrive I will note any news
> of troubles being experienced by UK citizens at borders as a result of overstaying or otherwise,
> there may be none. If the authorities are taking draconian actions then I will consider
> leaving before my 90 days are up, I'm hopeful for period of grace, there's no guarantee
> but definitely a possibility, the Spanish are relaxed on 90 days at the present time
> they may be in the future. As I've previously said I'm leaving with the intention and
> mindset of staying 5 months not 3 months.
> 
> 
> EHIC card I will do nothing about this at the moment. It may well be that the EU will
> let us retain this right, (costs them nothing). In November, again when things
> are clearer I will consider my options.
> 
> Vehicle Insurance, my current policy covers me, 180 days in EU no distinction made on
> whether I'm there illegally or not.
> Green Card my current Insurance states that my documents are a replacement for this.
> 
> IDP I'm considering getting this before November. But not just yet, no panic.
> 
> As I've stated next season is a different question altogether, we should be much better
> informed by then. Naturally I will deal with the situation as it then stands.
> 
> 
> And that's the last words on what I'm doing or not doing.



You are perfectly entitled to do what you like. My point is that sensible people plan ahead - which is what you appear to be doing despite your protestations that you are doing nothing! 

Just a few points:

1. The EU do not administer EHIC, so it is not up to them whether it continues but the conditions for being allowed to use EHIC are that the participating country has to accept freedom of movement. Since we will not if Boris gets his way, then EHIC is unlikely to continue under a no-deal situation.

2. Whatever you vehicle insurance policy says, you will NOT be covered if you are in a country illegally. That I can be 100% sure of!  

3. As I have said before, the Spanish may well be relaxed about 90 days but they are not the problem.

4. It may not be up to you to decide your future plans. If you have broken the three month rule then you may not be granted permission to re-enter the EU under the ETIAS scheme which comes into force at the end of December 2020.

But let's look on the bright side - Parliament may yet force Boris to act sensibly and we may not leave the EU for a long time yet!


----------



## Pauljenny

Just look at the vast volume of what had been written and spoken about Brexit , from day one..
Especially as an exit deadline approaches..
.
Look at the opinions of so called ' Experts ', laugh at the forecasts of the ' Informed, ' Uninformed ', ' The Lunatic Fringe ' and politicians of all persuasions.. 
.
Look at their forecasts... 99.9% wrong.. pure twaddle, from all of the above classes.
.

This latest thread is no different .
.

You can post on here until you're blue in the face..
It won't have any effect on whatever is the outcome.
.
I've got better things to do.. 
.
I'm off to do them... Ta Ta.


----------



## John H

Pauljenny said:


> Just look at the vast volume of what had been written and spoken about Brexit , from day one..
> Especially as an exit deadline approaches..
> .
> Look at the opinions of so called ' Experts ', laugh at the forecasts of the ' Informed, ' Uninformed ', ' The Lunatic Fringe ' and politicians of all persuasions..
> .
> Look at their forecasts... 99.9% wrong.. pure twaddle, from all of the above classes.
> .
> 
> This latest thread is no different .
> .
> 
> You can post on here until you're blue in the face..
> It won't have any effect on whatever is the outcome.
> .
> I've got better things to do..
> .
> I'm off to do them... Ta Ta.



Nothing like a sweeping generalization, is there? 99.9% wrong? I'd love to see your evidence of that. I don't know who you mean when you refer to "experts" but I get my information straight from the horses mouth. After a no-deal Brexit we will be subject to whatever rules the EU decides to impose on us. Unless and until they change their mind, these are the rules that we will have to obey: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf and, since they are the rules that currently apply to all non-EU/Schengen citizens, there is probably very little chance of them changing their minds. Ignore them if you wish. I will make one prediction: that over the next year or two, in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there will be an awful lot of Brit motorhomers getting into an awful lot of trouble because they chose to bury their heads in the sand.


----------



## delicagirl

my insurer brokers told me today that insurance companies at not issuing green cards at this time...    that was a fact..   so AIB said....  so i will depart with no green card and no fixed date to return.


----------



## witzend

delicagirl said:


> my insurer brokers told me today that insurance companies at not issuing green cards at this time...    that was a fact..   so AIB said....  so i will depart with no green card and no fixed date to return.



Watch out for the Mossies  :lol-053:


----------



## kenspain

witzend said:


> Watch out for the Mossies  :lol-053:



Yes they are as big as bloody pigeons


----------



## daygoboy

Never mind mozzy bites, watch out for Spanish Fly in your drink, 
2 drops and and it'll be you doing the biting.


----------



## John H

delicagirl said:


> my insurer brokers told me today that insurance companies at not issuing green cards at this time...    that was a fact..   so AIB said....  so i will depart with no green card and no fixed date to return.



That is a common response from the insurance companies because they don't know whether we will leave with a deal or without one. But keep an eye on what they are saying as the 31st October approaches. As I said earlier, if we need a green card while we are in Spain, it is easy to arrange for one to be sent out. Keep an eye also on whether we leave without a deal or not because if we leave without one you need to watch that 3 month clock.


----------



## Robina

Caravanguard are sending me one today.


----------



## daygoboy

***** said:


> Comfort sent a Green Card for our van, but Bennetts M/C insurance, part of Saga, flatly refused a green card




Saga appear to be waiting for you know what to happen. But historically 
below is how I've experienced how the Green Card applies up to date.
I imagine immediately after the 31st all Insurers will be obliged to issue 
Policies with EU coverage as standard, with an extension for countries that 
they individually choose to cover so called Green Card Extension.  
Much as it is now....here's hoping!

To date as of right, Insurers were obliged to provide minimum
3rd party cover for driving in the EU Member States, every one
seems to know that, although a lot of people think it only applies
for 30, 90, or 180 days, it doesn't, it's for the remaining term of your 
policy, could be a whole year. If you chose to drive outside the EU then 
you had to apply for a Green Card which normally listed those countries 
you had declared to the Insurers that you intended to travel in. People often got caught
out when contemplating say going to Morocco. That is, checking that the Insurer issued
Green Cards for Maroc prior to taking out the Policy. Many will only issue Green Cards for 
specific select countries. I've been obliged to get Frontier Insurance in half a dozen places over 
the years.


----------



## vwalan

might have to get carnet de passage as well for the eu. 
best not go there . dont buy eu items . avoid eu food ,vehicles etc .
after all many items are so called eu but made in other countries but only put together in the eu. 
put a big tarrif on eu imports .


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> Saga appear to be waiting for you know what to happen. But historically
> below is how I've experienced how the Green Card applies up to date.
> I imagine immediately after the 31st all Insurers will be obliged to issue
> Policies with EU coverage as standard, with an extension for countries that
> they individually choose to cover so called Green Card Extension.
> Much as it is now....here's hoping!
> 
> To date as of right, Insurers were obliged to provide minimum
> 3rd party cover for driving in the EU Member States, every one
> seems to know that, although a lot of people think it only applies
> for 30, 90, or 180 days, it doesn't, it's for the remaining term of your
> policy, could be a whole year. If you chose to drive outside the EU then
> you had to apply for a Green Card which normally listed those countries
> you had declared to the Insurers that you intended to travel in. People often got caught
> out when contemplating say going to Morocco. That is, checking that the Insurer issued
> Green Cards for Maroc prior to taking out the Policy. Many will only issue Green Cards for
> specific select countries. I've been obliged to get Frontier Insurance in half a dozen places over
> the years.



I'd be interested to know why you imagine that. They are obliged to give EU cover while we are members but where is the obligation after we leave?

PS I am always very wary of taking out insurance at the frontier because if you have cause to make a claim it would be a nightmare in a foreign language (well, it would be for me, anyway!)


----------



## kenspain

I have been trying to find out for a friend that wants to leave his van here when he comes over for 2 months because he has to fly back for a months work then after charismas comes back and goes to our place in Portugal but all my son can find out is the van will only be allowed to stay for 90 days if we leave the E.U .
No one knows what will happen here,


----------



## daygoboy

John H said:


> I'd be interested to know why you imagine that. They are obliged to give EU cover while we are members but where is the obligation after we leave?
> 
> PS I am always very wary of taking out insurance at the frontier because if you have cause to make a claim it would be a nightmare in a foreign language (well, it would be for me, anyway!)




Imagine means that's my guess, it's an expression people use when they are not sure.
Obliged, because government wouldn't want to lose too many votes to a likely highly disgruntled
prospective travelling sector of the public. Perhaps I should say 'feel obliged' they don't have to 
do anything. But it would be a convenient all round measure. 

Wary or not sometimes one has no option, other than not entering the country. 

Not exactly 3rd world countries but as the innocent party when making claims
in Spain and France and dealing directly (didn't want my own UK insurer involved) 
with the other party's Insurer, I found the process a far better experience  than 
many people seem to find in this country when making a similar claim.

In the UAE it used to be customary to pay a scribe (perhaps still is) because the
documents were all in Arabic, flummoxed me, job creation I suppose. Whereas in 
Maroc and Tunisia at least all documentation is in French and Arabic, same in most 
former French colonies.


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> Imagine means that's my guess, it's an expression people use when they are not sure.
> Obliged, because government wouldn't want to lose too many votes to a likely highly disgruntled
> prospective travelling sector of the public. Perhaps I should say 'feel obliged' they don't have to
> do anything. But it would be a convenient all round measure.
> 
> Wary or not sometimes one has no option, other than not entering the country.
> 
> Not exactly 3rd world countries but as the innocent party when making claims
> in Spain and France and dealing directly (didn't want my own UK insurer involved)
> with the other party's Insurer, I found the process a far better experience  than
> many people seem to find in this country when making a similar claim.
> 
> In the UAE it used to be customary to pay a scribe (perhaps still is) because the
> documents were all in Arabic, flummoxed me, job creation I suppose. Whereas in
> Maroc and Tunisia at least all documentation is in French and Arabic, same in most
> former French colonies.



I just wondered why you guessed that, especially in view of the fact that all compulsion to provide insurance as standard would be removed once we leave the EU. In fact, the logical assumption is that it is unlikely that UK insurers will have any need at all to provide more than the kind of  green card cover that they currently do for, say, Morocco.  

And you may feel confident in negotiations in French or Arabic but I don't - hence the reason why I never take out frontier insurance. If I can't get a green card I don't go. For example, we spent time in Croatia last year and I was originally planning to drive through Bosnia but my insurance company wouldn't issue a green card. They suggested frontier insurance but we decided to keep the van in Croatia and visit Bosnia on organized tours. Others - especially linguists - may feel happier about taking out such insurance.


----------



## daygoboy

John H said:


> I just wondered why you guessed that, especially in view of the fact that all compulsion to provide insurance as standard would be removed once we leave the EU. In fact, the logical assumption is that it is unlikely that UK insurers will have any need at all to provide more than the kind of  green card cover that they currently do for, say, Morocco.
> 
> And you may feel confident in negotiations in French or Arabic but I don't - hence the reason why I never take out frontier insurance. If I can't get a green card I don't go. For example, we spent time in Croatia last year and I was originally planning to drive through Bosnia but my insurance company wouldn't issue a green card. They suggested frontier insurance but we decided to keep the van in Croatia and visit Bosnia on organized tours. Others - especially linguists - may feel happier about taking out such insurance.




Chewing the fat really, speculation. Another route they (the insurers) may take is to offer
a choice of 2 policies ie  one for the stay at homes, and another for the home/EU traveller, possibly
with a few more non EU European countries thrown in. When I was 19 I got a green card and in other years,
asking just for Portugal, without requesting they extended travel to other countries (copy attached).
Bottom line may need to enlarge.

It used to be that that motorhoming and campervan travel used to attract many people wanting adventure,
which meant taking certain risks, was all part of the travelling experience. The border experiences
were just part and parcel of it all. I remember waiting a day and a half at a northern Portuguese border 
control once because my Australian girlfriend at the time, thought she didn't need a visa (Aussie Passport)
because I didn't (British Passport). I could have done without that kind of adventure!


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> Chewing the fat really, speculation. Another route they (the insurers) may take is to offer
> a choice of 2 policies ie  one for the stay at homes, and another for the home/EU traveller, possibly
> with a few more non EU European countries thrown in. When I was 19 I got a green card and in other years,
> asking just for Portugal, without requesting they extended travel to other countries (copy attached).
> Bottom line may need to enlarge.
> 
> It used to be that that motorhoming and campervan travel used to attract many people wanting adventure,
> which meant taking certain risks, was all part of the travelling experience. The border experiences
> were just part and parcel of it all. I remember waiting a day and a half at a northern Portuguese border
> control once because my Australian girlfriend at the time, thought she didn't need a visa (Aussie Passport)
> because I didn't (British Passport). I could have done without that kind of adventure!
> 
> 
> View attachment 72422



I agree - when I was a student I enjoyed the kind of adventure thrill you are talking about but now, in my 70s, I can do without it!

One thing I think we can be sure of is that when the compulsion to provide EU cover is removed they will still offer it but at an additional premium!


----------



## daygoboy

John H said:


> I agree - when I was a student I enjoyed the kind of adventure thrill you are talking about but now, in my 70s, I can do without it!
> 
> One thing I think we can be sure of is that when the compulsion to provide EU cover is removed they will still offer it but at an additional premium!




In those days you didn't really have any choice, no spirit of adventure, no go!

Just the thought then of driving over there in johnny foreigner land was enough to put
plenty off, along with quite a lot of snail mail prep. And with less money around than today
meant you had to be a bit adventurous and committed just to go to France!

It did attract the more adventurous, just a fraction of the hordes nowadays.
I truly believe there are some people today that would cancel a trip if they didn't have
a satnav.!

They will charge a Premium for overseas insurance, after all nothing is for free. But whether
it really would be more than we might have paid in other circumstances who can say?
After all the free market dictates the true price does it not? The insurance companies 
will be cutting each others throats for your business won't they? Of course, I hear you say. 
That is unless you believe there's some sort of underhand price fixing cartel at work !


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> In those days you didn't really have any choice, no spirit of adventure, no go!
> 
> Just the thought then of driving over there in johnny foreigner land was enough to put
> plenty off, along with quite a lot of snail mail prep. And with less money around than today
> meant you had to be a bit adventurous and committed just to go to France!
> 
> It did attract the more adventurous, just a fraction of the hordes nowadays.
> I truly believe there are some people today that would cancel a trip if they didn't have
> a satnav.!
> 
> They will charge a Premium for overseas insurance, after all nothing is for free. But whether
> it really would be more than we might have paid in other circumstances who can say?
> After all the free market dictates the true price does it not? The insurance companies
> will be cutting each others throats for your business won't they? Of course, I hear you say.
> That is unless you believe there's some sort of underhand price fixing cartel at work !



When the compulsion to include the EU disappears, they could either offer the UK only policy at a cheaper rate or keep the same rate as present and include EU cover at an additional premium. Which course do you think they will take?


----------



## daygoboy

John H said:


> When the compulsion to include the EU disappears, they could either offer the UK only policy at a cheaper rate or keep the same rate as present and include EU cover at an additional premium. Which course do you think they will take?



They will do what every business does. They will convince you, no make that tell you,
that the new 'Product' is a completely new product and cannot be compared with 
the replaced product should they be challenged. There'll be sufficient changes in 
the wording of the T & Cs to make it near impossible for Joe Public to dispute their claim. 
So we'll all just roll on our backs and accept it, they depend on life thought by many of
us as being too short and brutal as it is let alone for Don Quixote tilts !
The first year premiums won't be too bad it'll be subsequent renewal years, just
as present.


----------



## Robina

My green card arrived. Really useful!  

They have promised a replacement.


----------



## daygoboy

Not even Green! Appears that they're biding their time.


----------



## Robina

daygoboy said:


> Not even Green! Appears that they're biding their time.



The paper version is actually properly green - something is amiss in the picture. It seems an inexperienced clerk put a cross through all the countries I did want. I should get the amended version on Monday. Those countries at the end in boxes are not generally offered without an extra premium.


----------



## daygoboy

Robina said:


> The paper version is actually properly green - something is amiss in the picture. It seems an inexperienced clerk put a cross through all the countries I did want. I should get the amended version on Monday. Those countries at the end in boxes are not generally offered without an extra premium.



I'd be surprised if, even with an extra premium that they'd offer cover for some of those countries, 
usually have to go to some specialist insurer or obtain at Frontier. Many UK insurers will not provide
cover for Morocco.
Actually similar to my Post #58 Green Card issued 1972. Shows a number of countries covered and some
crossed out. It was Portugal I was making sure of getting cover for because it wasn't long
before the Carnation Revolution in 1974 so a bit risky.


----------



## Deleted member 74361

As far as the 90 in 180 day rule I am proceeding along the John H line: I am preparing now assuming UK passport holders will be bound by it.

My preparation is that I am applying for a Polish Temporary Resident Permit, which will permit me to avoid the Schengen 90 day limit, which applies to whole area.

I will still be bound by the rule that any EU Resident is limited to a stay of 90 days in any other country, without registering in that country. This, as John H stated in the past, is breached frequently, because there are no border checks within Schengen and no dates recorded on which to prove a breach of the rule.

I did not have to take my spouse's advice - I took my own legal opinion.

Geoff


----------



## daygoboy

Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!

But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
for a fact.


----------



## RV2MAX

daygoboy said:


> Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
> Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
> day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
> area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
> to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
> registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!
> 
> But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
> for a fact.



A few foreign sets of no plates should sort the cross ref problem


----------



## n brown

years ago i overstayed my visa by a lot, and went to the estrangeiros office to sort it out. after a load of heavy stuff about what a criminal thing i'd done, i was fined  £1.50
although there was a compound near Ferragudo that had new vehicles in it, including some smart campers,every time i passed


----------



## daygoboy

RV2MAX said:


> A few foreign sets of no plates should sort the cross ref problem



I'm ready matey I'm ready......I think :idea:


----------



## John H

n brown said:


> years ago i overstayed my visa by a lot, and went to the estrangeiros office to sort it out. after a load of heavy stuff about what a criminal thing i'd done, i was fined  £1.50
> although there was a compound near Ferragudo that had new vehicles in it, including some smart campers,every time i passed



Different world today. You wouldn't be dealing with the Portuguese or Spanish authorities but with Brussels. It is Brussels that will issue the ETIAS authority for you to re-enter the EU - or not. In addition, don't forget the fact that overstaying invalidates any insurance policy you have. It would be nice if we could go back to the way things were before the EU but that ain't gonna happen


----------



## daygoboy

I still take issue with that JohnH! If I take a Policy out today and it says that
I have 180 days EU Cover, I have taken that advice in good faith. I've abided 
and done what is expected of me regarded my side of the contract. 

If I happen to be in the EU after March 31st and find myself to be 'Illegally' within the EU by remaining 
after the 90 days, I cannot see how any court would say I should have reasonably
foreseen these circumstances and made alternative plans at cost and time to me. When 
our very own government cannot advise me unambiguously what those arrangements 
should be. Hence all the confusion we have at the present time. 

I cannot see any court in the land expecting a lay citizen to be better informed than 
HMG, or to possess the necessary degree of foresight of that which will actually happen, 
never mind what to do about it.The most I would guess anyone could expect is, that I 
make reasonable enquiries and efforts by way of contacting my insurers at around the time of
when reliable definitive information was too hand. Because at the present time my insurers seem to be conspicuously unforthcoming with info. They're probably awaiting news of a government hand out to
cover inconsequential losses themselves!


----------



## iampatman

daygoboy said:


> Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
> Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
> day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
> area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
> to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
> registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!
> 
> But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
> for a fact.



Never heard of that before - the 2 passport trick. I’m assuming you mean two UK passports?

Good luck with that 

Pat


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> I still take issue with that JohnH! If I take a Policy out today and it says that
> I have 180 days EU Cover, I have taken that advice in good faith. I've abided
> and done what is expected of me regarded my side of the contract.
> 
> If I happen to be in the EU after March 31st and find myself to be 'Illegally' within the EU by remaining
> after the 90 days, I cannot see how any court would say I should have reasonably
> foreseen these circumstances and made alternative plans at cost and time to me. When
> our very own government cannot advise me unambiguously what those arrangements
> should be. Hence all the confusion we have at the present time.
> 
> I cannot see any court in the land expecting a lay citizen to be better informed than
> HMG, or to possess the necessary degree of foresight of that which will actually happen,
> never mind what to do about it.The most I would guess anyone could expect is, that I
> make reasonable enquiries and efforts by way of contacting my insurers at around the time of
> when reliable definitive information was too hand. Because at the present time my insurers seem to be conspicuously unforthcoming with info. They're probably awaiting news of a government hand out to
> cover inconsequential losses themselves!



You can take issue all you like but no insurance company is going to pay out if you are in the country illegally. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. The reason why no insurance company is willing to tell you anything definite is simply because no-one knows whether there will be a deal or not (or indeed if we will actually leave on 31st October) not because they don't know what the law will be if we leave with no deal. If we do leave with no deal then they will be able to be very specific on November 1st and will probably inform all their clients (although, technically, I don't believe there is any compulsion to do so; it is up to the client to make him or herself aware of the law). As for not being able to foresee a change in the law, we have had three years to prepare for a possible change in the law and anyone who has not researched all the possibilities has no-one to blame but themselves. 

PS don't forget also that the police in the EU country you are in at the time will have the power to impound your vehicle if you are breaking the law. Too many potential consequences for me to risk breaking the law.


----------



## daygoboy

iampatman said:


> Never heard of that before - the 2 passport trick. I’m assuming you mean two UK passports?
> 
> Good luck with that
> 
> Pat



No 2 for different countries. I've known people in the past report a UK passport lost/stolen, then apply and be issued
with a replacement. All for the purposes of overcoming issues such as taking pet dogs over borders (in pre dog passport
days) and for other nefarious purposes, illegal of course.


----------



## daygoboy

Sorry a thread bump, but.

UK Immigration Act 2016. A brief synopsis, because?...boring read.

Even though a person may be an illegal migrant and driving in the
UK, and that person has an accident, then should the 3rd party be the innocent party he 
may claim off the illegal migrants insurance. Even though the insurer has voided the migrant's
policy as a result of the migrant being unlawfully present in the UK. Ie the insurer must
pay out to the innocent 3rd party. 
Effectively the migrant has 3rd party insurance even though of illegal status.

This condition applies even though the illegal migrant was aware of his status at 
time of taking out the policy.

If the government can see fit to provide this concession to an illegal driver in the
UK, I'd expect no less for a UK citizen should he find himself similarly disposed in
the EU when judged to be an illegal immigrant due to remaining beyond the 90 days.
Possibly through no fault of his own (delayed ferry crossing for example)
After all the similar precedent has been established. 

Nothing to prevent the insurer suing you to recover losses though. But I imagine
that will not be easy for an incident occurring in the EU area, to which we are no longer
a party particularly as regarding EU citizenship rights.


----------



## John H

daygoboy said:


> Sorry a thread bump, but.
> 
> UK Immigration Act 2016. A brief synopsis, because?...boring read.
> 
> Even though a person may be an illegal migrant and driving in the
> UK, and that person has an accident, then should the 3rd party be the innocent party he
> may claim off the illegal migrants insurance. Even though the insurer has voided the migrant's
> policy as a result of the migrant being unlawfully present in the UK. Ie the insurer must
> pay out to the innocent 3rd party.
> Effectively the migrant has 3rd party insurance even though of illegal status.
> 
> This condition applies even though the illegal migrant was aware of his status at
> time of taking out the policy.
> 
> If the government can see fit to provide this concession to an illegal driver in the
> UK, I'd expect no less for a UK citizen should he find himself similarly disposed in
> the EU when judged to be an illegal immigrant due to remaining beyond the 90 days.
> Possibly through no fault of his own (delayed ferry crossing for example)
> After all the similar precedent has been established.
> 
> Nothing to prevent the insurer suing you to recover losses though. But I imagine
> that will not be easy for an incident occurring in the EU area, to which we are no longer
> a party particularly as regarding EU citizenship rights.




The third (innocent) party is covered but you (the illegal migrant) are not - and it would not be hard for your insurer (presumably in the UK) to reclaim the money they have paid out to the third party from you (presumably a UK resident) in a UK court. There is no getting away from it - if you are in the EU beyond the 90 day limit and therefore illegally, you will NOT be insured. At the very best, you will, under the circumstances you describe, find it very difficult to find insurance in the future - and you will have to pay an arm and a leg for it - as well as paying for the damage to your vehicle 

PS if you are illegal only through unforeseen circumstances (illness, ferry cancellation etc) then you should inform your insurer straight away. There are, of course, provisions for exceptional circumstances but that is not what we were talking about at the start of all this.


----------



## daygoboy

John H said:


> The third (innocent) party is covered but you (the illegal migrant) are not - and it would not be hard for your insurer (presumably in the UK) to reclaim the money they have paid out to the third party.



That's what the EU Legal Minimum requirement is at the moment 3rd Party Cover for the Policy term. 
I've often driven with minimum cover after the 90 days full cover stipulated on my policy has expired.
The thing is, in recognition of this fact I'm perfectly prepared to pay for my own expenses. 

Anyway what I've shown by referring to the relevant section of the 2016 Act shows that even in  
circumstances of being an illegal migrant doesn't always mean the insurer can wash his hands of responsibility in paying out a 3rd party.
Because many are likely to go over the 90 days and hence deemed illegal, my guess is that
government will recognise this and require insurers to make provision for this, especially  
for the immediate period after Brexit. Conjecture. None of us no anything for certain even yet. 

Whether the insurer will or can sue you for costs or how hard or determined he is, that's 
another question, the €5 million claim is his problem. There's got to be enough worthwhile assets 
to chase up for a start.


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## daygoboy

John H said:


> PS if you are illegal only through unforeseen circumstances (illness, ferry cancellation etc) then you should inform your insurer straight away. There are, of course, provisions for exceptional circumstances but that is not what we were talking about at the start of all this.




If you were to go right now and happen to run over the 90 days post 31st Oct. & still be travelling in the
EU area and as a result become considered illegal. Could you not deem that as unforeseen circumstances? You tell me for an actual fact which will we be, in or out of the EU (not which looks most likely)?

"Insurer please take note I have informed you that I may or may not be legal in the New Year,
what should I do please, advise"


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## John H

daygoboy said:


> If you were to go right now and happen to run over the 90 days post 31st Oct. & still be travelling in the
> EU area and as a result become considered illegal. Could you not deem that as unforeseen circumstances? You tell me for an actual fact which will we be, in or out of the EU (not which looks most likely)?
> 
> "Insurer please take note I have informed you that I may or may not be legal in the New Year,
> what should I do please, advise"



Now you are being just plain silly. You know as well as I do that there are unforeseen circumstances that might cause you to overstay and you need to inform the insurer as soon as possible WHEN those circumstances arise. As for the rest of it, I think this has gone on more than long enough. You are prepared to take an obvious risk. I would rather not run the risk of a hefty bill for damage to my vehicle, being sued by my insurers for money they have had to pay out to a third party, finding it difficult or impossible to insure my vehicle in the future and having my vehicle impounded by foreign police. Others reading this will have already decoded which is the sensible approach for them to take - and I can't believe many of them will take your path.


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## Deleted member 74361

I posted earlier(post 67) that 

'My preparation is that I am applying for a Polish Temporary Resident Permit, which will permit me to avoid the Schengen 90 day limit, which applies to whole area.'

Yesterday this application ran into difficulties.

Polish Government will not process an application from a EU Citizen because currently such person does not need a Permit. This despite my pointing out that UK passport holders have been issued with the equivalent (Permit de Sejours) in France.

Even registering my address here took up 1/2 hour and about 20 pages of paper(incl. copies). Basia's Sister's application to renew her Polish passport took about 50 pages. Where do they store all this bumpf? I am thinking of buying storage units to lease to the government. Maybe they input it all into computers - if so why the hell do they not put it in directly? Oh, I know, then the stamps and ink pads would be redundant. 

I understand where Franz Kafka got the material for his books - 60 years ago, 'Plus ca Change'

Geoff


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## daygoboy

Wait until you're no longer an EU Citizen probably an easy process then, 
possibly from a prison cell 
It's mostly in the lap of the Gods or sods, until that fateful date has arrived all
is speculation. Time to relax.


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## Deleted member 74361

"..possibly from a prison cell"

I will hand myself in to the nearest policeman - he is downstairs and is my partner's son, so I will probably be out on bail.:lol-053:


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## Debroos

delicagirl said:


> my insurer brokers told me today that insurance companies at not issuing green cards at this time...    that was a fact..   so AIB said....  so i will depart with no green card and no fixed date to return.



What happened with your van squatters? Have they gone?


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## John H

delicagirl said:


> my insurer brokers told me today that insurance companies at not issuing green cards at this time...    that was a fact..   so AIB said....  so i will depart with no green card and no fixed date to return.



Things change on almost a daily basis. I contacted my insurance company (Safeguard) two days ago and they said they could issue me with a green card for Spain either now or send one to me in Spain after 31st if needed.


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## delicagirl

Debroos said:


> What happened with your van squatters? Have they gone?




i DID   a heavy insect spray and all sorts of spiders, moths and flies appeared dead in various spots earlier this week.  i hoovered them all up today.  i will put  a french smoke bomb through the van tomorrow as a final anti-insect strategy...  and hope that all the creepy crawlies have vanished....    thanks for asking


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## peter palance

*try*



Jo001 said:


> I don't really understand all the ins and outs but I am sure I heard/read that if there is no deal, there is no transition period. Is the three month clock a different thing?



try to stay out of france, till its over. spain, and porugal need you money,dip your bread in. ok pj


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