# any small heater recommendations ?



## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

Im heading off for a long weekend in wild and it would be nice to get a small heater to take the edge off the dead of night..

any recommendations? preferably something i could get from a shop (no time for internet deliveries) 

how long could i get away with a gas stove running?

cheers

jay


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

in the past i used catalitic heaters . i have one in my trailer works a treat .mines a thermex ,they have stopped making them but you can buy others .


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

vwalan said:


> in the past i used catalitic heaters . i have one in my trailer works a treat .mines a thermex ,they have stopped making them but you can buy others .



thanks Alan..this one looks good but any retailers..ill be travelling from Liverpool to Northampton area tomorrow

Coleman Blackcat Catalytic Heater


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

this would be better KONTITE-THERM`X CATALYTIC HEATER Mark 11A Model 320 TC Caravan/Motorhome new | eBay
or this alke midicat catalytic gas heater for campervan motorhome boat caravan | eBay
or thishttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIDICAT-CATALYTIC-HEATER-FOR-CARAVAN-BOAT-CAMPERVAN-TENT-BRAND-NEW-
all these are ideal in a smallish camper . you can fix them to a wall door or something


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## jamesuk (May 14, 2013)

isn't a gas heater in a van a quick way to suicide?


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

jamesuk said:


> isn't a gas heater in a van a quick way to suicide?



hummmm that what i thought..but i wouldn't know..the Mr Buddy Heaters seem to be ok


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## Byronic (May 14, 2013)

jamesuk said:


> isn't a gas heater in a van a quick way to suicide?



If it is, then most of us with a M/Home are dead!!


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## FULL TIMER (May 14, 2013)

Many vans used to be fitted with the catalytic heaters and never heard of any problems, personally not my cup of tea, burning gas also creates a lot of condensation 'and I just never felt safe leaving one lit overnight etc

As for "HOW LONG CAN I USE THE STOVE FOR" well that depends if you intend waking up again DON'T DO IT


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

vwalan said:


> this would be better KONTITE-THERM`X CATALYTIC HEATER Mark 11A Model 320 TC Caravan/Motorhome new | eBay
> or this alke midicat catalytic gas heater for campervan motorhome boat caravan | eBay
> or thishttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MIDICAT-CATALYTIC-HEATER-FOR-CARAVAN-BOAT-CAMPERVAN-TENT-BRAND-NEW-
> all these are ideal in a smallish camper . you can fix them to a wall door or something



genius find! the first link is right by me  the second one has 7 secs left..might email the seller

thanks Allan

PS whats the safety issues due to ventilation etc


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

FULL TIMER said:


> Many vans used to be fitted with the catalytic heaters and never heard of any problems, personally not my cup of tea, burning gas also creates a lot of condensation 'and I just never felt safe leaving one lit overnight etc
> 
> As for "HOW LONG CAN I USE THE STOVE FOR" well that depends if you intend waking up again DON'T DO IT



Thanks for the advice!!


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## Dive Tramp (May 14, 2013)

*In Van Heater*

I use a small logburner in my campervan. Does more than take the edge of the coldness. We had 33 degrees C in it last weekend. Sorry, it's not going to help you for your trip, but they are an excellent choice, being carbon neutral and with the aspect of free fuel at your doorstep too.

I build them myself and have sold quite a few.

DT


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## FULL TIMER (May 14, 2013)

Byronic said:


> If it is, then most of us with a M/Home are dead!!



Most if not all gas heaters fitted these day's and for many years now  are room sealed and all combustion gases are ducted to the van exterior, therefore very safe to use. I don't think in this day and age I would be willing to take a chance on any other type of gas heater including those portable camping type jobbies like the black cat especially if you want heat through the night,


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## 1978lovebus (May 14, 2013)

Me and the missus slept over in our old hymer through the bank holiday weekend with the gas on low overnight and the skylight slightly open along with the door vent, we are still here, but before I took the risk, did service the gas heater and bought a carbon monoxide alarm monitor just in case.. As a precaution, I would personally spend an hour or 2 with the heating on full with the monoxide tester on full alert as a tester for piece of mind..


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

think you will find that the catalitic have a cut out for co and co2  what ever . certainly the thermex does . 
mind i wouldnt leave one on all night .i normally crack a window open or leave the door just cracked when using mine . at bedtime switch off close door . bit like the water heater a bit of common sense it works fine.


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

FULL TIMER said:


> Most if not all gas heaters fitted these day's and for many years now  are room sealed and all combustion gases are ducted to the van exterior, therefore very safe to use. I don't think in this day and age I would be willing to take a chance on any other type of gas heater including those portable camping type jobbies like the black cat especially if you want heat through the night,



So if it not fitted with outside ducts for ventilation stay away?

Im in an old Dodge Van with thick velour walls for insulation..I was in it the other week and just had one night that it got to cold..im guessing it wont take much to get hot...hmmm its never quick and easy


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## Byronic (May 14, 2013)

FULL TIMER said:


> Most if not all gas heaters fitted these day's and for many years now  are room sealed and all combustion gases are ducted to the van exterior, therefore very safe to use. I don't think in this day and age I would be willing to take a chance on any other type of gas heater including those portable camping type jobbies like the black cat especially if you want heat through the night,



Quite right room sealed are the way to go. Been discussed many times on the various M/Home fora. Catalytic heaters are getting more difficult to source these days, oxygen depletion sensors fitted or or not, they are yesterdays tech and in addition condensation is a real problem.


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

i have been using catalitic in my vans for best part of thirty years . had them in my present trailer for 13yrs . 
put a new one in 3 yrs ago. that was the first new one . that kontite one is a smaller version of one i had in my trailer for 120yrs .it was old when i fitted it . they were put together in uk using thermex bits .


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

they are easy to find new , but yes they are old tec .
 bit like instantaneous water heaters . 
care as to be used . i hoped folk can use common sense . 
they certainly are cheaper than the alternatives . 
i find them suit my style . 
cookers are dangerous .so is driving .
i dont like the idea of using the cooker as heating .


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## n brown (May 14, 2013)

trouble is,noone on a public forum can advise you to use anything other than a roomsealed heater,even though we've all done things that h and s would weep at ! you just have to use your common sense


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

Byronic said:


> Quite right room sealed are the way to go. Been discussed many times on the various M/Home fora. Catalytic heaters are getting more difficult to source these days, oxygen depletion sensors fitted or or not, they are yesterdays tech and in addition condensation is a real problem.



Thanks byronic - so is there a modern and easy solution that you? could recommend. Something small and cheap ??


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## Byronic (May 14, 2013)

That's true Alan but J D says small heater not "cheap heater". The smallest room sealed commonly available afaik are fan types eg  gas fuelled Propex and Truma. Then there are the really expensive diesel fuelled alternatives such as Webasto and Eberspacher.


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## windyjools (May 14, 2013)

We use a catalytic gas heater, like others suggest, a bit of common sense is the way to go, we had a problem a few years ago, before we bought the 'cat' heater, and decided to use the hob to warm up............a while later, we both felt felt warm and sleepy!!!!!!!!!!! fortunately, I recognised the symptoms, opened the doors, and we went for a walk in the freezing but fresh and healthy fresh air.
So now, we have a CO alarm, and only use the 'cat' heater when awake, just use your head (!! literally !!) and if you want to wake up in the morning, don't mess with unvented gas systems.
They are very good, for us and clearly for others, they offer cost-effective, simple heating, but use common sense, don't cut corners and take only the risks you are happy to take the responsibility for.


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

i like cheap . 
dare say we will have a discussion about it next winter . sure to find you ,or will you hide .hee hee. 
never know where we shall meet .
thats for byronic , we tend to bump into one another in winter . have done for years . we have some very interesting chats . 
nice man . very friendly . but dont tell him i said that.


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

gota say what a great forum... thanks for all your advice everyone


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## Byronic (May 14, 2013)

windyjools is using a catalytic heater not "cutting corners" when there are better alternatives? Every gas heater has some risk in useage, the catalytic variety has a few that are overcome by the room sealed type, just down to money. 
If you have to crack windows to ventilate in order to get rid of condensation, then the extra gas useage cost has to be factored in over the long term, could be quite significant.?
Mind you I've yet to find a quiet or near silent fan heater, still at least they're not loud enough to be a killer though!


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

maybe off to B@Q tomorrow???

looks easy apart from the bracket..(looking around the house for a solution)

How to Make a Candle Heater


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## Byronic (May 14, 2013)

With any luck Alan, enough people will read the post on "Robberies In Spain" or whatever and we'll have the bludy place to ourselves. Just need someone to start a Gas attack thread to make certain!!!


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

well it seems calnegro as been fenced off earlier this spring . a few have told me about it . think alot more is going to be lost. seems that the people i know that live there are seeing more parkups fenced off every week. 
but its ok portugal is so easy . perhaps we shall meet at pingo doyce yet again . have a good one .


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## scampa (May 14, 2013)

Jay Davies said:


> any small heater recommendations ?



I would also recommend that for safety, you only use a room-sealed heater that is designed for enclosed spaces such as vans or motorhomes.

(Sorry, but you did ask for a SMALL heater recommendation!)


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## Jay Davies (May 14, 2013)

scampa said:


> I would also recommend that for safety, you only use a room-sealed heater that is designed for enclosed spaces such as vans or motorhomes.
> 
> (Sorry, but you did ask for a SMALL heater recommendation!)



:raofl:


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## vwalan (May 14, 2013)

heres a good one 12 Volt Caravan in Mobile and Touring Caravan Parts | eBay
this should be vented in and out i believe .
anotherhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Propex-Heater-Compact-1600-Gas-Heater-Vw-Camper-Boat-Motorhome-Stove-Canal-L-k-/321123300005?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item4ac470b2a5
never seen so many propex for sale.


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## jogguk (May 14, 2013)

You just need a thicker duvet :lol-053:

It  was-5c in Malvern Hills at Easter in my old Dodge van, when in bed it's quit toasty. I do have a gas warm air heater but the noise of it starting up usually wakes me, so do not use it.

John


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## vwalan (May 15, 2013)

easter . i was in portugal .much nicer . ha ha .


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## scampa (May 15, 2013)

Please excuse me if this next comment is seen as boring, or "un-cool" (It's a habit that I'm trying to break!), but I felt the need to counter a couple of comments that I've seen on this thread.

Any heating or cooking apparatus that relies on burning gas, oil, or solid fuel such as wood or coal, WILL produce carbon monoxide, basically because the combustion process will gradually take the available oxygen from the atmosphere.

If you have sufficient ventilation then this oxygen will be replaced as it burns, and all will be well. If you DON'T have adequate ventilation, then the oxygen level will be reduced to a level that will not support life... that means YOUR life and anyone else in the room or compartment.

To add to this problem (and as a previous poster has said) the carbon monoxide will make you feel drowsy. You may not even realise this, and simply drift off into your FINAL sleep. Even more worrying, you may get to a stage where you DO realise that you are being poisoned, but the amount of carbon monoxide that you've absorbed will have semi-paralysed you, so you have no option other than to lay there and wait until you lose consciousness, before you die.

Yes, you can get away with it for a short time if you're very careful, don't get distracted, and sometimes are just plain lucky (I've used a gas hob myself for heat at times), but you do have to be aware of the risks and plan for them.

Now I'm as much of a critic of Health & Safety Regs as (almost) anyone, and have seen how OTT parts of H&S have gone in recent years, but when it comes to basic life-threatening safety issues such as those mentioned in this topic, then I'm afraid that anyone who tries to play down the seriousness of the hazards has obviously never had to deal with the casualties caused by carbon monoxide.

As I've said before, most (but not all) of the casualties of carbon monoxide poisoning were not expecting to die on that particular day.

(Boring mode now switched off.... Normal service resumed! ).


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## Tbear (May 15, 2013)

scampa said:


> Please excuse me if this next comment is seen as boring, or "un-cool" (It's a habit that I'm trying to break!), but I felt the need to counter a couple of comments that I've seen on this thread.
> 
> Any heating or cooking apparatus that relies on burning gas, oil, or solid fuel such as wood or coal, WILL produce carbon monoxide, basically because the combustion process will gradually take the available oxygen from the atmosphere.
> 
> ...



May I just add that people trapped in a sealed environment do not die from oxygen depletion but from Carbon Dioxide Piosoning. You need to add this to the Carbon Monoxide problem. We stick with the nice warm Quilt.

Richard


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## Tow Itch (May 15, 2013)

> Any heating or cooking apparatus that relies on burning gas, oil, or solid fuel such as wood or coal, WILL produce carbon monoxide, basically because the combustion process will gradually take the available oxygen from the atmosphere


  No any combustion May produce carbon monoxide. If you have enough oxygen and the burner itself is not faulty then all will be OK. However any such system can have issues or faults and we have become increasingly keen to prevent these issues resulting in the loss of life. You used to see the first heater all the time 20+ years ago.  they had a warning printed on the rear saying that the room they were used in had to be at least X number of cubic feet and that there had to be at least Y inches square of ventilation. Problem is if somebody couldn't work out the rooms volume or the vent space or they weren't bothered or the vent space was closeable and "Oh Dear" you wake up dead. Look at this second heater something might not be right about it's combustion you can see the black mark near the pilot light. Likewise poor combustion and Goodnight Vienna.  










 Catalytic heaters tended to produce a more complete combustion and reduce the risk from flames. With all internal non seperated fires the is also the risk of nearby surfaces becoming dangerously hot or brushing past the fire with flammable clothes especially bedclothes. Access being confined makes motorhome users very vulnerable to this.
 The next development was the use of oxygen depletion sensors to cause the pilot light to no longer heat the thermocouple. This doesn't save you from carbon monoxide directly but indirectly as it senses the lack of oxygen. These are used in appliances such as mobile gas heaters that many people use in their homes. It does say on the boxes though that these heaters are not to be used in bedrooms. It appears that carbon dioxide levels may be a greater worry in homes with catalytic heaters than carbon monoxide.  http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr023.pdf  How an oxygen depleation system works. Service Bulletin on Oxygen Depletion System

 For those of you travelling to more exotic climes carbon monoxide poisoning is not just about death Chronic poisoning has a myriad of nasty results and you are more vulnerable at greater altitude as there is less oxygen to start with. 





> Delayed Neurologic Sequelae
> 
> There is also a risk of delayed neurologic sequelae (DNS) 3-240 days after apparent recovery of  40% of patients with significant CO exposure.  DNS includes various degrees of impaired cognition, memory dysfunction, vertigo, ataxia, parkinsonism, muscle rigidity, gait disturbance, disorientation, mutism, urinary incontinence, fecal incontinence, cortical blindness, hearing loss, tinnitus, nystagmus, seizures, coma, electroencephalographic abnormalities, cerebral edema, leukoencephalopathy, diabetes insipidus and globus pallidus necrosis.  These deficits may persist for a year or longer.



 These are the best two pieces I've read on CO poisoning. FAQ - Technical Details on Stoves Zen Backpacking Stoves - Carbon Monoxide Hazards Not 30 second reads but good stuff.

 Back to heaters. So as said earlier what I may have done and what I'd recommend to someone are two different things. A Propex might be the safest solution but they are expensive and the fan is both noisy and a drain on battery power. If you had a vacant wall area you might try a non fan Carver heater or as some VW units had a Riviera heater in the floor. 
 Short term a gas or paraffin lantern will keep the chill off at about 800w to 1Kw but buy a CO alarm while you think about what you might want long term.


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## Byronic (May 15, 2013)

Degree of safety standard often comes down to how much dosh you have to spare. What I'm pointing out is that if cost is no problem then the best option is a room sealed appliance. If money is a problem then the catalytic heater should only be considered as second best. Or as has been suggested a thicker duvet may be the best choice. If I couldn't afford better I would certainly consider the catalytic option and just make sure I was aware of it's safety shortcomings.
In smaller vans it's often just not possible to find the wall space for a wall mount convector, not only that but the floor position for the inlet flue can be a problem. 
Pity they don't still make the Riviera often was the only heater you could fit in some VW conversions, although they tended to rust away being exposed to road salt and the elements.


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## Smaug (May 15, 2013)

Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread (been away out of interwebby access- Woo Hoo!)

Anyway, here are some experiences for the boating fraternity (where low level ventitaltion tends to be a little damp!!)

I have an old ThermX catalytic (1973 ish) which is hot enough to burn your face off at 3 paces. It is great for a blast of heat for going to bed or getting up, provided you leave a hatch open a few inches near it to allow air to circulate/ replenish. I would NEVER leave it on all night, not even on very low.

Incidentally, boiling a kettle last thing (for a hot water bottle) or first thing (for that delicious early cup of char) soon takes the edge off a small area for getting dressed/ undressed.

For overnight I use either a winter weight sleeping bag (single mummy style are best) or in extreme conditions 2 sleeping bags. This latter has worked well with ice on the decks & inside the boat!

Heating a pottery plant pot (or a fire brick) ovr a gas hob while you get into bed will work like a mini-storage heater & hold the warmer temp a bit longer. The beauty of a hot brick (or pot) is that you can turn the gas off & then seal down as much as is possible in yer average vehicle. Don't forget that most "heater" vents in the cab will always let air in unless you can seal them.

Another trick that a pal uses is 5 x 8 hour tea lights on a metal plate that are left burning all night. I have never done this, but he hasn't died yet & I reckon a little air circulating via open cab heater vents would be adequate. This is by no means a heater, but does take the edge off the chill & adding a plant pot could make it warmer.

Best of all is to take a hot bird to bed with you, then you will sleep like a log & will both be toasty warm (especially if t emissus finds out!)


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## vwalan (May 15, 2013)

they do say that if caught in a car in a snow storm etc .that a candle lit .is enough to keep you alive . 
in survival kits it does many things . light ,cook on . plus you can eat it if you really must . 
always keep a couple in your vehicle as an emergency aid . 
might need it in may if this weather keeps up .


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## landyrubbertramp (May 15, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread (been away out of interwebby access- Woo Hoo!)
> 
> Anyway, here are some experiences for the boating fraternity (where low level ventitaltion tends to be a little damp!!)
> 
> ...




Best of all is to take a hot bird to bed with you, then you will sleep like a log & will both be toasty warm. will a kfc doo lol


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## Smaug (May 15, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> Best of all is to take a hot bird to bed with you, then you will sleep like a log & will both be toasty warm. will a kfc doo lol



How many times did ya Mum tell ya "Don't play wiv ya food?" :idea-007:


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## Byronic (May 15, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> Best of all is to take a hot bird to bed with you, then you will sleep like a log & will both be toasty warm. will a kfc doo lol



Only works if she's keen on your Quarter Pounder.


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## scampa (May 15, 2013)

scampa said:


> Any heating or cooking apparatus that relies on burning gas, oil, or solid fuel such as wood or coal, WILL produce carbon monoxide, basically because the combustion process will gradually take the available oxygen from the atmosphere.
> 
> If you have sufficient ventilation then this oxygen will be replaced as it burns, and all will be well.





Tow Itch said:


> No any combustion May produce carbon monoxide. If you have enough oxygen and the burner itself is not faulty then all will be OK.



I was referring to the use of this basic apparatus in a compartment that is not adequately ventilated, such as in a van occupied by inexperienced or unwary campers. I think we can agree that without sufficient air / oxygen getting in, you WILL reach a stage where you have incomplete combustion, a product of which is carbon monoxide.

Again, sorry if my earlier post seemed a little "stark", but we need to guard against being too blasé or laid back about the need for ventilation, especially when inexperienced folk may be reading these threads for ideas and advice.


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