# Battery advice please!



## LindsayH (Aug 26, 2018)

Hi all! I hope you're all enjoying this great British summer weather! It's cooler in the van at least. 
I would like your advice about leisure batteries please. As some may know, I've been having a few electrical issues which are slowly getting worse and following advice I am going to start by replacing my leisure batteries, which I suspect are quite old. Please bear with me, my electrical knowledge is very limited. I currently have 2 x Banner batteries which I think are the 95901s:
Banner Energy Bull Leisure Battery 95901 12V 115Ah
I could do a straight swap, which might be wise given my lack of knowledge, but there are a couple of reasons why I'm wondering if I should get different ones. Firstly, I've got you lovely lot's brains to pick. Secondly, I had in my head of budget of £250-£300 (or possibly a teeny bit more if there was a good reason). While I'd very much like to stick to the bottom end of this as I'm skint, with our Alpha discount, I could buy something a bit more expensive (better??) than the Banners. Thirdly, mine are 115Ah and at quick glance I could go to 120Ah in the same space. Does this make an actual difference? Fourthly, space is very tight, I could go a little taller than the existing ones (maybe a cm) but length and width are maxed out and they will be difficult to change. If I can get some as good/better in the same space/slightly smaller that might be good. The dimensions of the banners are Length 350 mm, Width 175 mm, Height inc. terms 230 mm.
A couple I've looked at:
Numax
12v 115ah Numax XDT30MF Leisure Battery NCC Class A - Alpha Batteries
Expedition
12v 120AH Expedition Plus Semi Traction Leisure Battery - Alpha Batteries
Lucas
12V 120 AH Lucas Leisure Battery LX35MF - Alpha Batteries
Leoch
12V 120AH Leoch Adventurer AGM Leisure Battery (LAGM120) - Alpha Batteries

Like I said, I know very little about electrics so some of these may be totally unsuitable. My gut feeling is to replace like for like to avoid disaster which is what I'll do if I get no responses. But I'd love to hear your opinions.
If it makes any difference, I have two solar panels, a Fox 150 solar thingy, I'm pretty sure there is a split charge system (is that what the Zig is?) and a 12v fridge (Vitrifrigo). There should be photos of all of these, incl the batteries in an album on my profile.
Cheers guys!
- Lindsay x


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## yorkslass (Aug 26, 2018)

I have 4 gel batteries. 2 which are 10 yrs old and 2 which are 7 years old, added when we installed a battery  to battery  charger. Because they're  sealed gel they don't have to be vented or need maintenance.. I think the way to make them last is to avoid deeply discharging them, which shouldn't  happen to you cos of the solar panels. I've read a lot about batteries, and when we need to, will probably go with the same.


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## Canalsman (Aug 26, 2018)

Have a look at this:

Battery Technology Advances mean big savings and better batteries for Caravans/Motorhomes

Alpha Batteries can supply both the Varta and Bosch batteries that are recommended, the Varta ones being cheaper but a smaller selection.

May be worth a call to see if other Varta capacities are available ...


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## colinm (Aug 26, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Lead is very heavy, so you have a good, dependable measure by simply measuring the weight. As a rule of thumb, look for a (12v) battery that is around 250G per Ah (so a 100Ah battery should weigh 25KG). If it is as low as 200g/Ah, look elsewhere. If it is around 300g/Ah, buy it!



According to Alan the bad boys have cottoned on to that one and are using cut down plates and concrete in the bottom of casing.


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## ScoTTyBEEE (Aug 26, 2018)

Get a voltmeter and check the batteries because it doesn't sound to me like you know for sure that's your problem. If you don't know how to use one look on youtube.

If you're fulltiming you absolutely have to know how to use a voltmeter and how to keep an eye on your batteries. The alternative is wasting money.

Buy a voltmeter before you do anything, check the battery voltages, use them, check again, see how fast they drain. Even if they are shot at least you know for sure and you'll get far more life from the next pair.

£9 delivered. ULTRICSA Digital LCD Multimeter Voltmeter Ammeter OHM AC DC Circuit Checker Tester Buzzer 1000V 10A Probes: Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

I couldn't live without one fulltiming. I use it all the time to diagnose problems.


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## trevskoda (Aug 26, 2018)

Varta /bosch silver frame batterys every time if you have money,ind tests show these are the best by miles and are fitted to stop/start top make cars as they will last 5 years without drop of and can take a hammering.


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## korky (Aug 26, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Batteries are incredibly complicated. There are several chemistries, a few electrolyte systems and a few plate types. So there are loads of possible combinations of features.
> 
> To explain how it all works, basically, there are lead plates sitting side by side in a bath of sulphuric acid. You apply a voltage to charge them and electrons flow from one plate to the other, and stay there until you let them flow back. If you overcharge them past the point when they are fully charged, the electrons can't flow the same way and the water in the electrolyte starts splitting and creating an explosive mixture of gases. As this bubbles out, the battery needs topping up with special ionised water.
> 
> ...



Bosch and Varta silver Powerframe batteries are VRLA type not AGM.

Korky.


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## trevskoda (Aug 26, 2018)

korky said:


> Bosch and Varta silver Powerframe batteries are VRLA type not AGM.
> 
> Korky.



Correct there sealed flooded/wet.


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## runnach (Aug 26, 2018)

cough cough traffic light batteries are the business forever leave em hanging about :dance:

Channa


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## trevskoda (Aug 26, 2018)

channa said:


> cough cough traffic light batteries are the business forever leave em hanging about :dance:
> 
> Channa



Traveling folk find they fall into back of the trucks here.


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## korky (Aug 26, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Some are wet. Some are AGM. S5 A13 Bosch AGM Car Battery 12V 95Ah Type 019 S5A13



I agree, but you say you prefer VRLA AGM, there is no such thing. Confusing for some people reading this.

Korky


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## delicagirl (Aug 26, 2018)

ScoTTyBEEE said:


> Get a voltmeter and check the batteries because it doesn't sound to me like you know for sure that's your problem. If you don't know how to use one look on youtube.
> 
> If you're fulltiming you absolutely have to know how to use a voltmeter and how to keep an eye on your batteries. The alternative is wasting money.
> 
> ...



neither could i  i couldn't be without one now.     i knew less than nothing when i bought my dog of a van and i have learned HUGE  amounts from the kind WC community.  Part of my initial problems was a japanese electrical radio-satnav which was hardwired into the batteries but which was  never OFF  (but on stand-by) and it constantly drained the battery. i had it removed.  I finally changed all my batteries after the engine one frequently let me down and died, and the leisure battery was almost useless.  I now have 3 identical 110A batteries of the same make and ampage and the electrical performance is definitely better than when i bought it.  i have learnt how to use a multi meter  (get a good one)   and that i  need to let the batteries settle for an hour after driving before taking meaningful readings.  i never let my batteries drop below 12.5  before moving on - but i am a cautious person and i know others let it go to 12v before worrying.  My electrical usage is minimal  (water pumps, lights).  But i have 2 12v sockets in the habitation (in addition to the cab ciggie lighter socket) which i use for laptop and charging my phone.  i now recharge my laptop when i am on the move so that the alternator is doing the work.   its a balancing act which you cannot balance without a good multi meter.  Good luck   -  if i can learn all this stuff......   anyone  can.


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## colinm (Aug 26, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Nah: that wouldn't work. Concrete is 2,400 Kg/M3, lead is 11,340 Kg/M3




It does work when not just the lead but the electrolyte as well is replaced.


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## Nabsim (Aug 26, 2018)

I replaced the 2 x 125AH batteries for 2 x 90AH Bosch Powerframes. These are completely sealed and don’t need venting.

I agree about getting a multimeter and checking first though but if you are swapping you will get 2 Bosch from Alpha and a chunk of change


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## trevskoda (Aug 27, 2018)

hairydog said:


> The one in my car lasted 11 years, so I replaced it with another of the same make and model. But they are far from the best. It's just that the best cost a LOT more.



Think there only out about 5 years but not sure,independent tests show they are.


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## colinm (Aug 27, 2018)

hairydog said:


> I don't believe that putting concrete would be worth the effort. It has so many chemical snags and is only a bit over twice the weight of that volume of electrolyte, whereas lead is well over ten times the weight. And it would save very little money.




And yet it has been seen to be done, when you're knocking out fake batteries by the thousand the savings add up.


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## korky (Aug 27, 2018)

hairydog said:


> All AGM batteries are also VRLA but it doesn't say so, just as all organic eggs are free-range, but it doesn't say so.



Ooer, I was spouting some crap yesterday.

It is the last time I will post so late at night whilst under the grape, and I apologise for that. 

It was a very wet day yesterday in more ways than one.

Korky.


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## Byronic (Aug 27, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Nah: that wouldn't work. Concrete is 2,400 Kg/M3, lead is 11,340 Kg/M3



It can work. The volume of a battery taken up by the actual lead content may only be 20%? Plus
the electrolyte.
Now if you fill the battery with say 50%? concrete it may then well weigh around that of
a non tampered with batt. 
I have put ? marks because I don't have the figures too hand, but you can see the principle.

I have never been a battery fraudster.


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## Byronic (Aug 27, 2018)

hairydog said:


> That is the point. You don't have the figures to hand.
> The volume of a 100Ah battery is about 4.5 litres. Even if you completely filled it with concrete it would weigh 11Kg. A good battery that size weighs around 24 to 26Kg.
> It is not possible to fake a good battery with concrete. You could do it with gold, of course. But that won't turn a profit.



Have plenty enough to establish the principle, it's all very variable as far as specific materials are concerned anyway.

Half the battery genuine =13kg
Half concrete                 =6kg
18kg would be heavy enough to fool many people they were getting a half decent battery,
but if there was any doubt then you'd only need to substitute scrap iron for 50% of the 
concrete to get a battery weight comparable to the weight of the genuine article.

Half the battery genuine =13kg
25% of batt. scrap iron  = 9kg
25% of batt. conc.         = 3kg
25kg should fool anyone, no filling with gold required!

Now whether any of this is worthwhile or viable is another question, in India possibly so, in the
UK?


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## LindsayH (Aug 27, 2018)

Thanks for the link, it's really interesting. I've been looking through the Varta and Bosch batteries on Alpha and checking and rechecking the space in the battery cupboard. I *think* I can squeeze in the extra 3mm length just about, but going from 115ah to 90ah seems like a big drop. I know that because of the better tech the loss is probably not as bad as it seems, but 50ah still seems like a lot to me?




POI Admin said:


> Have a look at this:
> 
> Battery Technology Advances mean big savings and better batteries for Caravans/Motorhomes
> 
> ...


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## LindsayH (Aug 27, 2018)

I can't thank you enough for this Hairydog. Such a thourough and easy to understand explanation. I really appreciate it and have copied and pasted it into a file on my computer for reference.



hairydog said:


> Batteries are incredibly complicated. There are several chemistries, a few electrolyte systems and a few plate types. So there are loads of possible combinations of features.
> 
> To explain how it all works, basically, there are lead plates sitting side by side in a bath of sulphuric acid. You apply a voltage to charge them and electrons flow from one plate to the other, and stay there until you let them flow back. If you overcharge them past the point when they are fully charged, the electrons can't flow the same way and the water in the electrolyte starts splitting and creating an explosive mixture of gases. As this bubbles out, the battery needs topping up with special ionised water.
> 
> ...


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## LindsayH (Aug 27, 2018)

Thanks for this! Because of reading similar threads to this on the forum since I joined, the first think I bought for my van when I finally got one was a multimeter. I finally got round to learning how to use it this week and have been taking lots of readings. My charging systems are all working and the readings on the batteries are gradually going down over time. I know that the leisure batteries are old so it seems sensible to replace them before setting off further afield. If I still have problems I will (quickly) investigate further.



ScoTTyBEEE said:


> Get a voltmeter and check the batteries because it doesn't sound to me like you know for sure that's your problem. If you don't know how to use one look on youtube.
> 
> If you're fulltiming you absolutely have to know how to use a voltmeter and how to keep an eye on your batteries. The alternative is wasting money.
> 
> ...


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## LindsayH (Aug 27, 2018)

Also, what's all this about concrete? :lol-049::raofl:


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## Byronic (Aug 27, 2018)

LindsayH said:


> Also, what's all this about concrete? :lol-049::raofl:



It's what some people believe may be in some "too good to be true" bargain batteries of course.

A well respected source on practical battery usage and types as applies to m/h usage 
can be found on another forum, under the username "aandncaravan." He has 
convincing comments to make about certain types of battery that may not,
shall we say agree with the conventional wisdom particularly when applied to regimes of
charging in the m/home environment. Worth a perusal.


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## Canalsman (Aug 27, 2018)

Byronic said:


> It's what some people believe may be in some "too good to be true" bargain batteries of course.
> 
> A well respected source on practical battery usage and types as applies to m/h usage
> can be found on another forum, under the username "aandncaravan." He has
> ...



That is the link that I posted earlier ...


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## Canalsman (Aug 27, 2018)

LindsayH said:


> Thanks for the link, it's really interesting. I've been looking through the Varta and Bosch batteries on Alpha and checking and rechecking the space in the battery cupboard. I *think* I can squeeze in the extra 3mm length just about, but going from 115ah to 90ah seems like a big drop. I know that because of the better tech the loss is probably not as bad as it seems, but 50ah still seems like a lot to me?



I have the same dilemma.

I would like to use these batteries but the locker will not accommodate the 140ah batteries, and I don't wish to replace two 110ah batteries with two 90ah ones.

I see from the Bosch website that there is an AGM variant which I think uses the same Powerframe construction.

The L6 AGM range includes a 115ah battery. Details here:

http://br.bosch-automotive.com/medi...eisure_special_parts/BA_print_L4_L5_L6_en.pdf

Alpha Batteries don't list the L6 on the website though ...


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## trevskoda (Aug 27, 2018)

Here we go.
Any more arguments about batterys and you will be brought before the courts and CHARGED.


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## alwaysared (Aug 27, 2018)

Some good information on battery technology here plus lots of other useful links on everything electrical.

Regards,
Del


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## Exu (Aug 27, 2018)

*Cheap Batteries*

I realise that in theory I really should use a deep cycle battery for the living area - and that the design of those  is so different to a starter battery (i.e. one is for a low maximum current but complete discharge without the bits that fall off the plates shorting them out while the other is for a very high current for a short period and never deeply discharged), but they cost so much more. 

And a couple of years or so ago the Caravan Club cut up so-called deep cycle batteries and found all but two were actually starter batteries put into a different case and given false labels. And of the two, one was only available in Germany. Unfortunately the CC didn't dare name the dud makes for legal reasons.

So in my boat, and now in my motorhome I just use a 110Ah lorry starter battery.

I realise that this goes against all the learned theory and advice ( and will, no doubt, resulting howls of disapproval), but is is so much cheaper to just replace it after 5 or so years - and it means I don't run the risk being sold a fake.


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## korky (Aug 27, 2018)

Exu said:


> I realise that in theory I really should use a deep cycle battery for the living area - and that the design of those  is so different to a starter battery (i.e. one is for a low maximum current but complete discharge without the bits that fall off the plates shorting them out while the other is for a very high current for a short period and never deeply discharged), but they cost so much more.
> 
> And a couple of years or so ago the Caravan Club cut up so-called deep cycle batteries and found all but two were actually starter batteries put into a different case and given false labels. And of the two, one was only available in Germany. Unfortunately the CC didn't dare name the dud makes for legal reasons.
> 
> ...



Suggest you click on the link in the previous post to yours.Things will be much clearer then and no you don't have to spend a large amount on your battery.

Varta LFD90's are only mid price and available with Wildcamping discount from Alpha Batteries.

Korky.


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## malagaoth (Aug 27, 2018)

At the start of the season I replaced my Platium 130A/h (about 10 years old but still working well) with a Leoch of similar capacity what a mistake!!!

Whereas the Platinum lasted 3 days without problem the Leoch struggles to last 1 day! Im just back off travels but as soon as I get settled I will be taking it in to be capacity tested.

Wouldnt mind but it wasnt even cheap!


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## Byronic (Aug 28, 2018)

Exu said:


> So in my boat, and now in my motorhome I just use a 110Ah lorry starter battery.
> 
> I realise that this goes against all the learned theory and advice ( and will, no doubt, resulting howls of disapproval), but is is so much cheaper to just replace it after 5 or so years - and it means I don't run the risk being sold a fake.




But you may be able to do a bit better, because Varta (surely a co. with a reputation to lose?) have
the LFD range which they state is dual purpose, ie for low rate discharge as a LB, and high rate discharge for starting.
There's not a significant price premium over the conventional products, at least at the time when I purchased, pays to check of course.


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## ScoTTyBEEE (Aug 30, 2018)

That Yuasa L36-EFB recommended in this thread has a life of 'up to 200 cycles'.

L36-EFB - Leisure Batteries - Leisure Marine & Garden View All - Batteries

It's 24kg for 100ah. I can't see how it's anything other than a budget battery myself. OK it is £110, but can't really see how it would differ from any other cheap battery.

The Trojan J150 is £220 for 150ah, but it's 'up to 1200 cycles'

J150-HPT Trojan Battery Deep Cycle - Trojan Batteries

Much better for fulltiming imho and will work out cheaper in the long run.


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## LindsayH (Sep 6, 2018)

I've just been brave and ordered the Boschs!


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