# Battery chargers



## Nabsim (Feb 7, 2020)

I am struggling to find a definitive answer on this one.

I have fitted two relatively dumb mains chargers going through my EBL, each charger is rated as 18 amps.

Does this mean they have the potential to deliver up to 36 amps? I don’t ever see anything like this.

The reason I am asking is I am looking at getting a 30 amp charger in place of the two existing on the basis of more amps will mean less charge time (Lifepo4 battery’s). I don’t want to do this if the net result is slower charge time.

Can anyone point me in the right direction on this one?


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## Sharpie (Feb 7, 2020)

Sorry Nabsim, can't advise, other than that the although the Schaudt chargers can at times put out their 18A rating in the bulk phase, they tail off pretty dramatically once the voltage rises (on lead this is). They are not great. Yes I think that they do parallel, at least that's what they say, maybe not exactly X2, and they do provide the connections to add the second one. Though I only have the one.

I hope someone with real knowledge and experience (not me) can suggest a decent one that really can put say 30A into a lithium bank continuously, until it's topped off, and run off a small generator when necessary. With a decent power factor.

Not just the cheapest thing off Ebay.

Lets say 14.6V at 30A, that's 438 VA at PF 1, which they can't do. Be realistic, say PF 0.7, and that's 625 VA required. Which I think is pushing it a bit for a 900 VA rated thing, used most days, even if the inverter stage can really cope with an SMPS attached.

From what you have said elsewhere you do need this, I hope somebody else can give you a better steer. If you would like some help interpreting specs, please PM, because I recognise that I can get a bit boring in public. Take care of yourself.


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## Okta (Feb 7, 2020)

If this is your principle means of charging your LiFePO4 battery I would get something with proper LiFePO4 settings. I put up with a bit of undercharging from my CBE when on ehu because the battery doesn’t need to be full but use a B2B to ensure that it is full when I arrive somewhere without ehu.


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## Nabsim (Feb 7, 2020)

Okta said:


> If this is your principle means of charging your LiFePO4 battery I would get something with proper LiFePO4 settings. I put up with a bit of undercharging from my CBE when on ehu because the battery doesn’t need to be full but use a B2B to ensure that it is full when I arrive somewhere without ehu.


i have it set to Gel profile at the moment and never leave them on too long so it’s getting right volts so not too bad at the moment. Been looking on loads of boating forums and with them not being smart chargers it should be okay.
If someone can tell me if parallel chargers should give a lot more amps than a single charger I can decide lol


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## wildebus (Feb 7, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> i have it set to Gel profile at the moment and never leave them on too long so it’s getting right volts so not too bad at the moment. Been looking on loads of boating forums and with them not being smart chargers it should be okay.
> If someone can tell me if parallel chargers should give a lot more amps than a single charger I can decide lol


If you have two 18A chargers in Parallel, then yes, therotically (and in practice) they will deliver upto 36A.  But how much will depend on how much the batteries will take.   I have a 120A Charger but it is only when the batteries are fairly low that much current will be sent. As an experiment, when the batteries were down to 40% SOC, I had the mains charger (120A) and the engine running and I was putting in nearly 150A in.
Check the output when your batteries are decently low.

But I would echo Oktas comment ... get something with proper LiFePO4 compatibility if you are planning on investing - or have - a significant amount of money in Lithium Batteries


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## Sharpie (Feb 8, 2020)

I agree. If you have made a big investment in expensive LifePO4 batteries, then getting a properly designed charger for them, with the correct profiles, temperature monitoring etc. though costly, would be a wise investment.

The Schaudt EBLs, with their (maximum, not all the time) 18A chargers, were never designed for Lithium. Mine is a 2010 EBL99, so not the best. With my 180 Ah  bank (say 90Ah practically usable without too much degradation). plus 90Ah starter, at times it might be working very hard, or just never get there, but I try never to get into such a situation.

Apparently significant changes were made later to improve the charger (which did have a bit of a reputation for conking out). Lots of detailed info at http://www.WEBSITE BLOCKED BY ADMIN/schaudt-elektroblock.php and http://www.WEBSITE BLOCKED BY ADMIN/how-does-a-charger-work.php though not sure that I agree with every little detail of all of that.

Personally, if doing this, I would disconnect the EBL charger(s) entirely (just pull out the kettle leads) and put in something like a 30A https://www.votronic.de/index.php/e.../pb-standard/pb-1230-smt-2b#technical-details

They are about £300.

They say it has active power factor correction and has CosPhi=1, well that's also impressive.

Or their triple (mppt solar, mains charger, alternator regulator combination). Or some Victron system.

Keeping the EBL internal charger as backup in case something packed up in the better one, just plug the kettle lead back in again. I would not try to run both in parallel at the same time.

If you have chosen to put in say 200 Ah of lithium, well presumably from time to time you intend to make use of most of that, otherwise why do it ? Sure if that's needed for several days autonomy whilst camped up with no real input, then followed by a full session of re-charging, that makes sense. Run a small generator for a couple of hours every evening, yes you could at best put back 60Ah with a 30A charger. Though I doubt it. Especially if some of your essential stuff needs to run through an inverter as well, rather than notionally 12V.

It's what I do, but whilst the generator is running I also load it up recharging my laptop and other devices, watching the TV perhaps, even cooking a meal on the Remoska, and that's quite enough for it just powering the simple single Schaudt charger in the EBL at the same time. That's just enough to keep the fan running in the Truma Combi overnight, if I am camped up for more than one night in cold weather. If it manages to put back even 20 Ah I'd be surprised, the charger would never even complete the absorption phase, it is designed for use on hookup, with lead, where it works adequately.

When the original AGM failed suddenly and without warning on a midwinter scottish trip, the little generator ran all night every night for over a week to keep the systems going, and just sipped a little petrol, very little at all, just ticking over quietly on the auto throttle. But keeping the important stuff running, most importantly the heating.

Notionally 30 A of charging whether it be from mains, or a generator, or the alternator through a B2B regulator, or a massive solar installation on a good day in Summer, with a finely tuned setup, or trickle some in from a big fuel cell continuously running, could put 200Ah  back in say 7 hours, which seems like a whole day, or overnight hookup, to me. I think you have the Victron BMV wired in to your setup, so should be able to see mostly what's happening, but fundamentally you can only take out what you have put in somehow, minus a bit, and hoping to do it in say 2 hours, regularly, is I think pushing realistic expectations.

A simple power budget on a spreadsheet could indicate where your bottlenecks might be, in various scenarios, and point to where best to spend money on good stuff. 

Schaudt do seem to be a very conservative company, nothing necessarily bad in that, but AFAIK don't seem to have moved much with the times, resting on their laurels, and their OEM customers who will keep on buying the stuff, which is still good in it's way, . Newer is not always better, and neither are van manufacturers necessarily independently knowledgeable about electrical installations, but may leave that to the applications engineers from the specialist suppliers to get right, build up long term business relationships and pricing agreements and try to minimise warranty claims and all of the costs associated with that, and customer dissatisfaction nowadays instantly blurted out on social media. 

Even the solar regulator they have is apparently the most basic Votronic PWM job, put into a blue box with all the right connecting cables to plug into an EBL. I took a little look at it and decided that there were probably better things available. For rather less money.

Sorry, none of that is probably much help.

Addendum, the site doesn't seem to approve of the links I put up "website blocked by Admin" before I'd even posted, just previewed. Well make of that what you will. Sorry if I have ruffled any feathers.


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## Okta (Feb 8, 2020)

When I had an EBL29 Schaudt advised to connect my Sterling charger direct to the LiFePO4 battery but not to unplug the mains connection to the EBL, simply remove the 20A charging fuse from the EBL 12V circuit. Here is what Udo Lang said.

_“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
Then the indication light at the panel will shine when the 230V is there and the starter battery will get a float charging. The connection to the leisure battery is cut.
Best Regards
Udo“_


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## Nabsim (Feb 8, 2020)

That’s the info I have been after. Cost is an issue now I am retired but not to stop what I need.  While I do prefer Votronic so far I will go for the Victron Blue Smart 30 amp in this instance. I don’t think there is anything between the two company’s in quality just do it differently.


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## Sharpie (Feb 8, 2020)

Okta said:


> When I had an EBL29 Schaudt advised to connect my Sterling charger direct to the LiFePO4 battery but not to unplug the mains connection to the EBL, simply remove the 20A charging fuse from the EBL 12V circuit. Here is what Udo Lang said.
> 
> _“the best would be to mount the sterling charger directly to the battery you like to charge.
> The mains connection please leave at the EBL. Just remove the 20A fuse at the EBL´ s front side. This is the fuse “internal charger” (internes Ladegerät).
> ...


That makes some sense if you just want to maintain the starter battery, and have mains hookup. And like to see an LED to tell you that you are still on mains, e.g. the site hookup hasn't tripped out, or the RCD or a breaker in your system has been tripped somehow.

The EBL internal charger is an adequate one for using hookup, and also acts as a power supply once it's gone into 13.8V float, i.e. the first 18A or so that you pull from your 12V system comes from that, not the battery. As soon as you draw more than that, and the battery starts to make up the extra, the voltage drops and the EBL re-triggers again into the timed bulk-absorption-float sequence.

Which otherwise only resumes the next time you move on and plug in again. Not every day. I think that's how Dethleffs anticipated most customers would be using their vans like mine.

Perfect for say people who use campsites with hookup, doesn't move on every day,  and haven't committed their van to be entirely dependent on 12V only. If I have 240V, whether from hookup or the generator, anything that can use it directly gets fed from that, not the 12V. Fridge, Laptop, TV, device chargers, 700W travel kettle, Remoska etc.

That's why my van came with a 12V system sized to keep the lights on and heating running, plus a bit more, for a few days off-hookup, and a separate 240V system which gets used whenever it's available.

But personally, if putting in a better one, I'd pull the plug on it, not just the fuse, i.e. completely isolate it, so that if something bad happened such as a lightning strike or surge that zapped the better charger, or it just failed, it would still be there as backup.

From what I think you have mentioned, you don't, when in storage, so are relying on your Efoy, with some other arrangement to keep the starter in good order.

The Votronic units do have a separate output to maintain the starter. I don't know much about Victron, which seem to be sophisticated units designed primarily for lead battery banks. As still very popular in nautical applications, where weight is not usually so much of an issue.

"_Adaptive 6-stage charge algorithm: test - bulk – absorption - recondition – float – storage The Blue Smart Charger features a microprocessor controlled ‘adaptive’ battery management. The adaptive feature will automatically optimize the charging process relative to the way the battery is being used._ "

But when used for Lithium, all they say about that is "_Also charges Li-ion (LiFePO₄) batteries LiFePO₄ batteries are charged with a simple bulk – absorption – float algorithm._ "

Which doesn't really sound like much more than the Schaudt unit actually does, albeit a bit weakly, and not necessarily quite correctly for lithium either, whether on the gel or the wet setting. But for Nabsim, maybe, since you have two of them, perhaps persevere a little longer before splashing out your hard-earned. Unless you have already found that they are just not up to the job, for your application.

So I dunno really. Meanwhile hoping that my planned solar install will keep me autonomous in Summer, and the generator, used responsibly for a couple of hours each evening in Winter. And hookup wherever available, that's really the best, and I don't begrudge paying a little to stay on small CL sites from the "friendly club" with hookup, water, loo disposal, sometimes even a shower.


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## Okta (Feb 8, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> From what I think you have mentioned, you don't, when in storage, so are relying on your Efoy, with some other arrangement to keep the starter in good order.


Yes I do have an Efoy. I no longer have an EBL but when I did I found the advice given by Schaudt helpful. On my new van I have wired it differently to suit the CBE DS.


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## Nabsim (Feb 8, 2020)

Summer months my 300w solar does the job no problem usually @Sharpie. I can pull the plug from the additional charger but not from the original that is built into the EBL. Or at least I think I can’t as I presume the EBL plug powers everything else as well.

I will be fine with the fuse pulled as @Okta posted. I don’t normally use any 240v stuff when I run the genny so was thinking to just run the new charger direct from genny rather than plugging it in to the ehu. If pulling the fuse allows trickle feed to starter battery I will carry on as now and just plug new charger in to one of the 240v sockets. I can park on a £5 cl for a couple of weeks so it’s nice to get starter top up in this weather.

I never saw more than 18 amps with the twin chargers which led to some of the doubts. I have a couple of fuse boxes arriving soon to tidy up the wiring so may just check both chargers are actually working still. I keep a close eye on my battery’s so not concerned about doing any damage on the gel settings, when I went on a site for a couple of days two weeks ago I shut off incoming 240v when battery’s got above 90% SOC.


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## Sharpie (Feb 9, 2020)

On my EBL99, their are just two electronic modules. The LAS1218 charger, which is connected to 240V. And the BW99 voltage monitor which is basically there to disconnect all the outputs (except for the boiler frost protection valve) by triggering two big 60A latching relays.

These are the things that make a click when you turn it on and off at the control panel.

The BW99 is powered purely from the 12V batteries. And is a part that can apparently get in a muddle sometimes, leaving you locked out, if it decides not to close the isolation relays again.

It pulls those relays out if it detects the batteries have dropped to 10.5 V. And won't turn them back on again until 11V has been reached again.

The LAS1218 is the only part that uses 240V. The starter battery maintenance feed is nothing more than a power resistor to limit the current to it, not something any cleverer.

If that has actually failed (they used to be notorious for this), and you haven't realised, well it won't be supplying a trickle charge to the starter. You may still have a light on the indicator panel to say mains is present, but the charger may not actually be doing anything. So do check both your EBL, and your second charger. 

At times, when your batteries are in a relatively low state of charge, each of them ought to be putting out nearly 18A. I.e. disconnect second charger, measure what EBL is putting out. If anything. Switch off, plug second charger in again, measure again, you should be seeing nearly twice the current. If not, something may not be right.

Otherwise the EBL99 is just a connection box, fuse box, and a few other relays, mostly operated by the D+ input from the alternator. It has nothing inside to regulate the alternator input, that's just done by switching an external relay, fed by the D+ signal. The only protection is by 50A fuses. Basically an EBL99 can only supply a maximum of 50A on battery. (plus maybe another 18A or 36A with the second charger when on mains, and whatever a solar input into it might also be giving).

So tops, that might power a small inverter if wired through a spare EBL output. But my 300W one is wired straight to the battery terminals.

Now this is for my EBL99, I don't know what you have, but if you tell me the model number I could try to dig out the manual and see if there is any more sophistication inside yours. At least Schaudt do provide a pretty complete block diagram of what's inside, a bit muddled but you can figure it out from that. And it's all quite appropriate and cost effective I think for OEM installs, and they have maintained continuity of the block connections so, I could probably just pull out my old EBL99 and plug in the latest model if something failed badly. Or just keep it as a connection, fuse and relay box,whilst putting in Say a Votronic Triple alongside to do the clever stuff. Which would be cheaper and better.

Enlarge your battery bank, have a powerful alternator, well the thing, and the wiring, the external battery cutoff relay as they call it, and the fuses are sized for 50A max in from the alternator. Or out from the batteries. And you might be close to or over that with say a big lithium bank that can potentially accept charge at a much higher rate than that, if the alternator can deliver it.

I would only ever plug my generator into the hookup point. Where it first goes through the 240V panel with RCD and MCB trips, for my safety and that of the van's systems. Please don't consider plugging it straight into an additional charger and bypassing all of that, and the van's hopefully correctly installed 240V circuits.

Every appliance on my van is chosen to be double insulated, so I don't fear the dreaded live-neutral reverse fault, even no earth, that I have seen on several occasions on foreign campsites. But before plugging in I first use a cheap little plug in tester to check, and if necessary use a live-neutral crossover adapter. If there is no earth then I won't connect.

Running a generator I don't need nor want an earth, but if on EHU I do, if only so that I know other vans are likely to be safe, since many of them won't have thought about these simple precautions, don't have double-insulated kit, might even try to hoik a bit of stuck toast out of an electric toaster with a metal fork (yes I have seen that done, well I turned the switch off first so I must be safe, ahem no, quite the opposite if you have LN reversed), use metal bodied kettles where the only thing between them and live power is the ceramic insulation inside the element, etc.

Visiting another, got a tingle when touching the door handle to get in. Gently asked if that was usual, oh yes, particularly in wet weather, but you get used to it it's only a tingle. Oh dear.

It is also helpful to have chargers and appliances that can tolerate a wide variety of voltages, preferably everything from nominally 110 to 240V. Actually I have seen 260V at one UK site, where I think the transformer on the wooden pole must have been wrongly tapped (apparently replaced recently when the previous one exploded and burst into flames) Sometimes I've needed both my 25m and my 50m hookup cables together to find a nice spot, plus whatever the drop might be in whatever rickety distribution system the site might have. Shared with others say turning heavy current appliances on and off. Up and down it goes.


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## Nabsim (Feb 9, 2020)

My EBL is a 101-2 with a DT101 control panel. I still use the control panel for water and waste tank levels, starter battery voltage internal and ambient temperatures etc, its only really the house battery bank i ignore. I added a Votronic 30amp B2B and that works very well for me when I move regularly, another couple of months and I should be back on solar alone, again Votronic MPPT (250 Duo).

I will do some investigation this coming week on the charger, is was a LAS1218 charger I added, it just connects in to the EBL then a kettle lead from 240 to power it up. As I say I havent seen over 18 amps on mains or generator. As most things are fused through the EBL I wouldnt contemplate doing away with it unless I had a catastrophic failure and then I would probably get a repaired unit as they aren't too dear exchange at present. If I was building something myself then I would look elsewhere, the Triple units are a lot of money, not sure why the PB's and Triples are so much more when their other products are much more competitively priced, maybe because they sell to emergency services?

I have two different options for connection main power, I can use normal hook up lead, I have 25mtr lead for sites and a 5mtr lead for my genny so I don't have as much cable to coil up but I also have a hook up cable for a tent/trailer tent. Connects to the source as normal but has an RCB/MCB box and 3 pin house plugs on the other end so I am still protected.

I see 12V Planet are currently selling the 30 amp Victron charger for £175.68 which is less than normal so not sure if they are going to drop prices with something new coming out or not https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/vict...rger-12v-30a-1-output-bluetooth-built-in.html


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## Sharpie (Feb 9, 2020)

Took a quick look, the EBL101 looks to be pretty much the same inside as my EBL99, except that the voltage sensing board is now called an HS100 rather than a BW99, they've added some polyfuses, and a couple more connectors for other control panels which I don't know about.

But nothing has really changed there either, it's just the same current shunt (1mV per Amp), So you could possibly rig up another BMV to that instead, but really if you are enhancing your system, charge the batteries on solar and off alternator another way, put in a BMV directly to the batteries, yes one or two LAS1218 modules may do an adequate job when on mains or generator, if working.

The charger inside is still the LAS1218. The starter battery still just gets a trickle through a resistor.

Otherwise I think they are pretty much the same thing.


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## Nabsim (Feb 9, 2020)

I already have a Victron BMV, I fitted one when I changed to lifepo4


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## DnK (Feb 9, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> As I say I havent seen over 18 amps on mains or generator.


 My EBL 264-9 is rated 18A with the single charger so if your still only gives 18A with an additional charger whats the point in a second one?



Nabsim said:


> I see 12V Planet are currently selling the 30 amp Victron charger for £175.68 which is less than normal so not sure if they are going to drop prices with something new coming out or not https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/vict...rger-12v-30a-1-output-bluetooth-built-in.html



Full members using discount code at Onboard Energy can get this charger for £163.33


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## Nabsim (Feb 9, 2020)

DnK said:


> My EBL 264-9 is rated 18A with the single charger so if your still only gives 18A with an additional charger whats the point in a second one?
> 
> 
> 
> Full members using discount code at Onboard Energy can get this charger for £163.33


i am thinking i may have a charger down but will see.

I have been in discussion with Onboard Energy earlier in January and can get a good deal with them, I mentioned the 12V planet price as that is around £20 under what they normally are, wondered if there is a price drop imminent


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> I will do some investigation this coming week on the charger, is was a LAS1218 charger I added, it just connects in to the EBL then a kettle lead from 240 to power it up. As I say I havent seen over 18 amps on mains or generator.



Just a thought, but when you added the external LAS1218, did you also fit the 20A fuse for it ? Otherwise it won't be doing anything. It's the fifth one from the right.

Anyway first thing to check is both of the charger 20A fuses. Certainly you should be seeing double the current with two chargers both working properly.

I'd suggest that if you can get both working that it's probably unnecessary to consider something like a Victron charger, that has lots of clever stuff in it for looking after lead batteries, and the app. to let you watch it happening and adjust things, but that's not needed  I think when on the lithium profile. Two LAS2018 modules working together ought to be good enough.

I found Relion's charging instructions at https://relionbattery.com/resource-center/documentation

The most pertinent point to me was the temperature issues in cold weather which I've mentioned before:

"_Charging Temperature LiFePO4 batteries can safely charge between -20°C to 55°C (-4°F to 131°F). However, at temperatures below 0°C (32°F) the charge current must be reduced, until the temperature is >0ºC (32ºF), as follows: 1. 0°C to -10°C (32°F to 14°F) charge at 0.1C (10% of the battery capacity) 2. -10°C to -20°C (14°F to -4°F) charge at 0.05C (5% of the battery capacity) LiFePO4 batteries do not require temperature compensation for voltage when charging at hot or cold temperatures._ "

I.e. for say a single 100Ah Relion, with a single LAS1218 module, that would be unsafe at 0 degrees, charge current should be limited to no more than 10A.

With a bank of two, and two LAS2018 likewise unsafe, but if you unplugged the external one, you would still be operating within limits (9A per battery).

A further point, adding a battery-battery regulator to an EBL system is not necessarily straightforward. The EBL has the traditional split-charge relay that connects starter to habitation battery once the alternator D+ signal commands it. If you simply wire up a B2B unit externally between the two, well that relay probably just negates that, because in fact both batteries remain directly connected together. I imagine the B2B would just be spinning around in a circle. So it would be interesting to know how you fitted yours.

The diagram I'm looking at is at http://www.vodeg.nl/_imagesCMS/Schaudt_EBL_101C_BA_EN.pdf (first thing I found on Google).

The relay I'm talking about is "battery cut-off relay", top right hand corner, connected at points A1, A2.


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## Okta (Feb 10, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> A further point, adding a battery-battery regulator to an EBL system is not necessarily straightforward. The EBL has the traditional split-charge relay that connects starter to habitation battery once the alternator D+ signal commands it. If you simply wire up a B2B unit externally between the two, well that relay probably just negates that, because in fact both batteries remain directly connected together. I imagine the B2B would just be spinning around in a circle. So it would be interesting to know how you fitted yours.


The Votronic 1212-45 B2B manual gives wiring diagrams and instructions for connecting to EBLs. Even if you are using a different make of B2B it may be helpful to look at the diagrams. 


			https://www.votronic.de/images/Manuals/04.%20B2B%20Chargers%20Booster/3326_3328_3329_e.pdf
		

In effect it suggests that the positive feed from the engine battery is disconnected from the EBL and used to feed the B2B. The B2B out is then connected to the EBL where the original feed has been removed. I did this and everything worked perfectly because the battery link is via the B2B and avoids inappropriate linking. Make sure the B2B charging current is within the EBL limits.


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Okta said:


> The Votronic 1212-45 B2B manual gives wiring diagrams and instructions for connecting to EBLs. Even if you are using a different make of B2B it may be helpful to look at the diagrams.
> 
> 
> https://www.votronic.de/images/Manuals/04.%20B2B%20Chargers%20Booster/3326_3328_3329_e.pdf
> ...



That all makes sense, but you also lose the (primitive) starter battery trickle charge maintenance, because, unless the B2B covers that, there is no route for it to happen.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

@Sharpie i wired the a Votronic is B2B in a similar way @Okta did his, you just break into existing wiring. From memory I think this only required one additional cable, I know it was very quick and easy. I still have starter battery charging from my solar and from mains.

Adding the additional charger was one of the first jobs I did as I knew there was a high risk of damaging the EBL as it has 270ah battery fitted plus an allowance for starter battery and a single 18a charger. My memory is not good enough to remember if I fitted a fuse or not, while I will curse if I didn’t I will also be quite happy if that’s it lol

I am happy to use the dumb Schaudt chargers on gel setting as the voltage is in range, it was purely not enough amps why I was looking to change. Admittedly I do manage my 230v charging cutting off when I get around 90% so it may not be a solution for everyone.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Mine is not the same as Okta B2B, it is this one https://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-30-new#downloads


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## Okta (Feb 10, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> That all makes sense, but you also lose the (primitive) starter battery trickle charge maintenance, because, unless the B2B covers that, there is no route for it to happen.


Perhaps not. The wiring diagram for the EBL29 I had shows the separation relay on the main engine battery connection as open except when D+ is active. I think the trickle feed is via a smaller connection, 8 on block 3.


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## Okta (Feb 10, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Mine is not the same as Okta B2B, it is this one https://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-30-new#downloads


The principle should be the same with the 1212-30 and 1212-45.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Okta said:


> The principle should be the same with the 1212-30 and 1212-45.


Yes same principle but different unit, may be slight connection differences but without going back over it I can’t be sure.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Okay, genny running and connected to EHU socket, charge going in to the battery bank is showing as 16.6a on the BMV. Full charge light is lit on the LAS1218-2 and unfortunately the 5th from right fuse is in place. Time to start playing as from what everyone says that’s only output from one charger. Battery bank is at 69% SOC so should take full output from chargers.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Okay turned off 230v breakers and pulled fuse #5, checked fuse and it is good. Turned breakers back on and charger in the EBL is putting 8.1a into the battery bank.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Killed 230v and replaced fuse #5 then turned breakers back on, now showing 19.1/19.4a going in.
To ensure these readings are true I turned off the compressor fridge after I put the second charger back online. The initial 16a may have been a little more if the compressor had been running but still nowhere near the 36a it should be putting in.
everything on Schaudt side set to Gel and I thought that meant it would be putting more in but let me double check charge profiles


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Okta said:


> Perhaps not. The wiring diagram for the EBL29 I had shows the separation relay on the main engine battery connection as open except when D+ is active. I think the trickle feed is via a smaller connection, 8 on block 3.
> View attachment 76383



I think perhaps not. block3 is for the control panel.

The route probably is through through block 2 (5F) pin 1 which I had missed because it's labelled "_+starter battery for refridgerator_" And that is through an external 20A fuse.

As I said the EBL diagrams are muddled, and frankly block 2 connection is unnecessary except for the pin 3 for the D+ input, every other bit of that could have been done internally in the EBL, except that I expect they have just evolved this way. At least they have kept the connections consistent so old and new versions can be mixed and matched.

An old design, getting older, they really should up their game, and put in more modern internals, sure still keep them the same on the outside, but move forwards rather than resting on their laurels and continuing demand. Spend a little on R+D I'd suggest.

If starting from scratch I personally wouldn't be even using a D+ input, but sensing it within the unit.

See https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/split-charging.html for some other ways of doing these things.

But EBLs are what many of us have got, can mostly get the job done (apart from their poor LAS1218 chargers), so I expect will be around for a long time yet.

If doing my own van fit-out I wouldn't consider one, much better ways of doing it myself I think.


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Okay turned off 230v breakers and pulled fuse #5, checked fuse and it is good. Turned breakers back on and charger in the EBL is putting 8.1a into the battery bank.



Oh well, if the internal LAS1218 is only actually putting out 8.1A then that's pretty poor, but also explains why you are seeing only 16A with two combined.

So I take it all back and think you may be on the right track looking into alternative chargers that might genuinely kick out say 30A into lithiums. Good luck.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

I will check again in a few hours when it should be on the maximum output stage for 16 hours. Looking at both the EBL and LAS1218 documentation I am fairly sure that they should be putting out 18a each with up to 3a going to starter.
May try an email to Schaudt


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

@Sharpie regarding EBL fitment, a friend bought a 2018 Hymer that retails around £120,000 and that was fitted with an EBL, the manufacturers like them.


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## Okta (Feb 10, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> If starting from scratch I personally wouldn't be even using a D+ input, but sensing it within the unit.


I think it needs to be D+ with smart alternators because the B2B voltage sensing may cut out when the alternator voltage drops.


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> @Sharpie regarding EBL fitment, a friend bought a 2018 Hymer that retails around £120,000 and that was fitted with an EBL, the manufacturers like them.



The manufacturers have been using them for decades and know how to wire them in. Doubtless get them at good prices too. But that doesn't mean that they are still "state of the art". The LAS1218 has been inside them since the year dot but not evolved much AFAIK. It is an "up to 18A" device, maybe with a following wind on a good day.

Now if they got in some talented younger engineers and put together something more modern, integrated, B2B as well, MPPT solar, internal BVM, bluetoothed with apps, plug and play with older ones, well that could be interesting. But costly in R+D and manufacturing.

You asked earlier why say a Votronic triple costs so much (I don't think it does really), well the separate units ISTM are built to a price point, plastic cases etc. I expect it's much the same circuitry inside the "professional" ones for emergency vehicles etc. but these will hopefully also be made to just always work, maybe a few higher grade components, to additional standards about which I know little.

A fire engine crew, or ambulance, or something else don't wan't to know anything about managing such things, never mind fussing about with monitoring, apps etc. but expect to jump into their vehicles and go, and rely on the electrical system to just work. Batteries will be changed as scheduled maintenance, not flogged to death, procedures in place when they return to base and get laid up until the next emergency.


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Okta said:


> I think it needs to be D+ with smart alternators because the B2B voltage sensing may cut out when the alternator voltage drops.


 Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.

A vehicle with a smart alternator may be cycling the starter between say 100% and 80%, using it also for regen braking, stop start, pushing in very high voltages at times, sufficient even to trip a lithium's BMS,

A split charge relay whether self sensing or just switched in and out by D+ really isn't ideal for these. As long as D+ is on, the starter and hab. batteries are in parallel, so the hab. batteries have to cope with what's going on with the starter, whether or not the wiring to them and whatever fuses are there can cope.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say Sharpie, was just saying that they are still being used by well regarded manufacturers. They will not include all the things you mention as they would be unable to charge for the extras lol

if I hadn’t already got MPPT and B2B chargers that do what I want then a Triple would be a bit more attractive but spending around £700 on one then ripping out working kit doesn’t work for me. If I was starting again though or building something...


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.
> 
> A vehicle with a smart alternator may be cycling the starter between say 100% and 80%, using it also for regen braking, stop start, pushing in very high voltages at times, sufficient even to trip a lithium's BMS,
> 
> A split charge relay whether self sensing or just switched in and out by D+ really isn't ideal for these. As long as D+ is on, the starter and hab. batteries are in parallel, so the hab. batteries have to cope with what's going on with the starter, whether or not the wiring to them and whatever fuses are there can cope.


You would need an EBL that has the correct lifepo4 settings if you were doing this. Fitting the Votronic B2B between starter battery and EBL eliminates this problem. If you didn’t do this you would need to isolate the parallel battery relay


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## Sharpie (Feb 10, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> You would need an EBL that has the correct lifepo4 settings if you were doing this. Fitting the Votronic B2B between starter battery and EBL eliminates this problem. If you didn’t do this you would need to isolate the parallel battery relay



Yes, but major manufacturers are still putting in EBLs that, as I said, just have a split charge relay. Whereas the base vehicles may have smart alternators, since Euro 5 and 6. So I think that Schaudt perhaps need to up their game. And the manufacturers maybe think a little more and maybe put pressure on Schaudt to develop something more modern.

But you have bypassed that problem, and seem to be on track to sort out your mains charging, so that's all good.


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## Nabsim (Feb 10, 2020)

I don’t know if Charlie’s Hymer had a smart alternator or not, I know it was built on a Fiat. I doubt Charlie will know the model of EBL that was fitted either so can’t check online documentation.

I would hope that manufacturers are putting in a solution that works but that isn’t a given. I suppose until we start seeing lifepo4 coming out the factory and see what they have fitted to deal with the battery technology and smart alternators we won’t know.

It’s quite possible though that mainstream suppliers don’t have a suitable solution yet though.


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## Okta (Feb 10, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> Isn't that the major reason for B2B, that they figure that out for themselves ? And adjust accordingly.


The Votronic instructions say to use D+ with active (smart) alternators. Not a big issue with Fiat motorhomes until now because the smart function was disabled but I think the new testing procedures will mean they are no longer allowed to turn it off. Mercedes did not disable the smart function and I notice that more recent Mercedes Hymers now come with a standard alternator booster, which I take to be a device like a B2B that overcomes the problem.


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## Deleted member 80008 (Feb 11, 2020)

Hymer group along with a few other Euro based M/home manufacturers are moving over to DC-DC charging systems either from Shaudt or Voltronic.
The MLi and MLt Merc based from 2014 on are using Voltronic, up to the new BMC and BMi Hymers, which have switched over to the new Shaudt units.
We have already had our first Fiat with Regen (2020), which this was using the Shaudt unit.

The reason we are not using the Voltronic and Victron DC-DC chargers is that Sterling do have a very good set-up for RBF chargers that are specific to Euro 6+ and are been proven to be very reliable.
We have had Sterling on our portfolio for over 15 years and even back in the early days, their B2B chargers have been spot on.
Regarding the original OP, we have been told by our Li Battery Manufacturers is that as long as the voltage is correct for Float, Absorb and Bulk, to work with a Third of the rated charge input of the battery. So for example say you have a Li battery that has a charge input of 50A, you should have a mains charger of around 16A to drive it, thus not burn out the mains charger. As you increase the bank, then the charge needs to go up, so on a pair of the AL100's we use, we make sure the mains charger is 30A total input. Now going back to what you are installing, this reminds me of a Niesmann Bischoff we recently did some work on. This van came with 2x mains chargers from the factory, both having an output rating of 18A, so no mods were needed in adding 2x AL100's into the system, other than it did require a B2B charger and solar regulator upgrade (along with a few extras the customer wanted).


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## Nabsim (Feb 11, 2020)

I was impressed with Tech Support from Schaudt yesterday, answering emails very quickly.

I should be seeing more amps from what I have fitted, I am going to increase cable size from the EBL to the li to see if that shows an improvement. The only reason I was looking to change chargers was to reduce charging time in months solar isn’t enough for me. Will see if I can test this again tomorrow, I need the dogs out the way as everything is under one of the sofa’s


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