# Side facing seats ?



## stormywalters (Oct 5, 2011)

I was talking to a fellow camper this weekend about seat belts. They said they were told that side facing seats dont have to have seat belts. Does anyone know if this is true ?  
Stormy....................


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2011)

I seem to recall this is true. 

construction and use regs are difficult at the best of times ,But I believe what you have been told is in principal correct 

Channa


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## cooljules (Oct 5, 2011)

yes its true, seatbelts and a sideways seat are dangerous.

im putting sideway seats in so i can carry people in the back.    when i had a rock and roll bed in my old T3 seat belts were needed.


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## Mastodon (Oct 5, 2011)

cooljules said:


> yes its true, seatbelts and a sideways seat are dangerous.
> 
> im putting sideway seats in so i can carry people in the back.    when i had a rock and roll bed in my old T3 seat belts were needed.


 
B*gger that -  If anyone's sitting behind me I want them lashed to something solid...


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## stormywalters (Oct 5, 2011)

Thanks.... Probably wont sit in the back when traveling but was just interested to know if it was true. 
Thanks again   Happy camping
Stormy


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## Viktor (Oct 5, 2011)

It's not illegal to carry passengers on side facing seats without seatbealts in older vehicles, but it is illegal to carry passengers without 
being properly restrained and the particulars of that mean in effect you can be prosecuted if not carrying them in properly certified
forward facing seatbelted seats.  This effectively relegates some vans and motorhomes to legally 2 berths even if originally designed to carry more.
Some rock and roll beds are also not certified by the manufacturer to the standard i.e not crash test passed, which certainly means some
home made rock and roll beds are also unsuitable to carry passengers.

Small vans like older transit conversions with side seats, and the older romahome for example are legally now 2 berth and new owners thinking
of buying a cheap camper fall foul of this when buying something for a family day out as they cannot be converted or are financially too
expensive to alter.  Also if you are going anywhere near London there is also the Low Emissions Zone standard to comply with for older
motorhomes and that can also make an older purchase a waste of money as it's in the region of £1500 to comply or £100 a day fine enforced
by camera surveillence.


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## al n sal (Oct 5, 2011)

I believe that it is still legal to carry unrestrained people on side facing seats, and to put lap belts on side facing seats can cause serious injuries to vulnerable parts of the wearer, however you can still be prosecuted for carrying an unrestrained load.

al


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## cooljules (Oct 5, 2011)

al n sal said:


> I believe that it is still legal to carry unrestrained people on side facing seats, and to put lap belts on side facing seats can cause serious injuries to vulnerable parts of the wearer, however you can still be prosecuted for carrying an unrestrained load.
> 
> al


 
ah.....has this been tested in court? i cant understand, people sat sideways in the rear, going forward in a crash, but as its very dangerous to have them wearing seatbelts, does this mean they have to be 2/3 seats (in the cab?)


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2011)

al n sal said:


> I believe that it is still legal to carry unrestrained people on side facing seats, and to put lap belts on side facing seats can cause serious injuries to vulnerable parts of the wearer, however you can still be prosecuted for carrying an unrestrained load.
> 
> al



Well done I think your explanation nails it ...and answers the Op,s original question .... The side facing seats arent an issue no seat belt is not an issue ...But an unrestrained load opens up a totally different can of worms. 

And it is this can of worms worth considering if you elect to fit side facing seating. 

Channa


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## Viktor (Oct 5, 2011)

Hi Channa.

I nearly fell foul myself looking at offers on gumtree and ebay until I read more.  I'm glad I didn't jump at some of the
bargains nice vehicles that they may have been.  I saw a really nice 6 berth with a rear lounge that had become a 2 berth lol.

So I've now gone with a Wellhouse Leisure Regius conversion.  Ok more expensive, but instead of a main car and a campervan,
I'll now have the Campervan as my only vehicle (4 berth).  The next killer will be the LEZ zones as more areas adopt it over it
next few years.


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## Viktor (Oct 5, 2011)

To reply to the cab question....changes have meant that to get your vehicle changed to a motorcaravan it has to also
look like a motorcaravan and not just like a van with windows.

Motorcaravan certification means cheaper insurance.  Again I almost fell foul of this one as some insurers will not give you
insurance as a campervan unless you have front cabin to rear inside access and Dolmens for example require photos
and certificates of installation of certain areas before accepting any cover.

So yes you will only be able to carry passengers in the front which will be a max of 2, but you may have to insure as a van with
a goods vehicle certificate which may be more expensive....it's going to depend on the insurer and whether the converter is
on an insurers list of approved manufacturers.  Again it's the DIY conversions that are going to suffer the higher insurances.

As for tested in court...it's already in law and illegal to carry passengers unrestrained unless in forward facing seats from 4 or 5 years
back.  If you get caught or there is any sort of accident even not your fault you're stuffed and your insurance cover is gone once
the insurers read the accident report....totally not worth doing.  Yes I know all about the work vans carrying people to work...the
police are hitting firms with that one too.

Personally I can't afford to lose my insurance cover and have someone sue me personally for damages....house and life savings
worked for over a lifetime gone in an instant!


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## cooljules (Oct 6, 2011)

Mark McGimpsey said:


> To reply to the cab question....changes have meant that to get your vehicle changed to a motorcaravan it has to also
> look like a motorcaravan and not just like a van with windows.
> 
> Motorcaravan certification means cheaper insurance.  Again I almost fell foul of this one as some insurers will not give you
> ...


 
i heard about some problems people had, that it was hit or miss at the local DVLA.

my cab was totally seperate, having the thin metal panel, but a friend used my angle grinder and removed it.   mine does have a fibreglass high top.  so does look like a camper, more than a van.  but LT in germans, means cargo transporter :-/


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## jogguk (Oct 6, 2011)

Here is the "official" view from DoT (Department of Ttansport) courtesey of ukmotorhomes.net

You may want to check out the* DVLA revise their rule change on campervan conversions[/I*_]
"Following pressure from interested parties the DVLA have reconsidered their recent change of policy regarding the criteria required for the 'body type' classification on the V5C Registration Document to be changed to 'motor caravan' following a conversion. Read more..." on the same site.

John_


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## Viktor (Oct 6, 2011)

Interesting......here's the link UKMotorhomes.net - Inbox


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## Bernard Jones (Oct 6, 2011)

Mark McGimpsey said:


> Motorcaravan certification means cheaper insurance.


 
I'm not sure thats always the case because I'm paying £174 per year comprehensive for my X2/50 (Citroen Relay) Maxi van.
A lot depends on who you insure with, because some insurers don't seem to appreciate a van being used like a private car, i.e non-commercially.
Also, as always, getting insurance tends to be much simpler and cheaper if the vehicle has not been altered or modified - mine is just a boarded out van with furniture secured in the back.


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## Gadabout2 (Oct 6, 2011)

Does this affect my Geist Matterhorn? 2 forward facing seats fitted with full 3-point seat belts, plus 2 REAR facing seats with no belts.  I understood passengers could be carried on rear facing seats without belts...anyone know if that's illegal too?


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## Viktor (Oct 6, 2011)

Same situation gadabout, one law says you can carry passengers without the seat belts on side facing seats, or rear facing seats, but
another law about passengers being unrestrained takes precedence.  If you carry passengers unrestrained then you are liable to prosecution.

It should be easy enough to have three point belts installed.


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## shortcircuit (Oct 6, 2011)

"if you carry passengers unrestrained then you are liable to prosecution."

Are you positive Mark?  I get on my Stagecoach bus and sit on a side facing seat which means Stagecoach are breaking the law???????????????????


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## Viktor (Oct 6, 2011)

Not much consolation to realise that this law was brought in several years ago to particularily stop the practice of
overloading private cars with passengers (including extra children), and the 4 - 6 workmen in the back of the white
works van sitting on the floor.  Like all changes something else gets screwed up which was probably never considered
and in this case it was older MHs some which cannot be altered as the body is fiberglass.

Though overall the passenger safety I think is a good law, yet in most cases buses carry their passengers unrestrained,
so perhaps we're not quite there yet as regards passenger safety and vehicles.


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## Viktor (Oct 6, 2011)

No buses are exempt from that particular law, though I believe schoolbuses have been included recently...but might be
incorrect there.


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## shortcircuit (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for that info.  Who on earth is going to control school buses.  Kids cant even behave in school and there is little chance of the driver being listened too.  Another example of ineffective legislation.


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## Viktor (Oct 6, 2011)

Yes indeed point taken..how many children always do exactly what they are told....or put them on, and then slip them off
even in a car....I suspect some accidents in private vehicles have happened because the driver is distracted by a child
not doing as they are told and having to be constantly checked on.


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## Mastodon (Oct 7, 2011)

shortcircuit said:


> Thanks for that info.  Who on earth is going to control school buses.  Kids cant even behave in school and there is little chance of the driver being listened too.  Another example of ineffective legislation.


 
Kids can't even behave *at home*... drive them to school on flatbed trucks and let Natural Selection do what it was designed for.


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## mustardseed (Oct 7, 2011)

Mark McGimpsey said:


> Also if you are going anywhere near London there is also the Low Emissions Zone standard to comply with for older
> motorhomes and that can also make an older purchase a waste of money as it's in the region of £1500 to comply or £100 a day fine enforced
> by camera surveillence.


 
I wasn't aware of this.  Lots of questions!!!
Do you have a link, please?  Does this mean that loads of old vehicles are effectively banned from London if they don't have whatever conversions to reduce their emissions?
And how can cameras detect emissions?


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## Viktor (Oct 8, 2011)

You have to register with the vehicle's registration and keeper details and provide proof of compliance by forwarding
the relevant certification.  If the year and make is already a known compliant vehicle, you still have to register (free
registration by the way for all applicants), or your registration plate will be read and checked against records and if not
registered (compliant or not), you still get a fine.

(Makes me wonder though what would happen if you found an identical vehicle in colour and model and displayed
ringer plates.  Would you be lucky enough to find one that was registered, or would some poor sod somewhere get
a 'surprise' penalty ticket?)


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## Viktor (Oct 8, 2011)

The LEZ link is here: Low Emission Zone | Transport for London 

There is also another thread on the LEZ in the main index.


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## mustardseed (Oct 8, 2011)

Mark McGimpsey said:


> You have to register with the vehicle's registration and keeper details and provide proof of compliance by forwarding
> the relevant certification.  If the year and make is already a known compliant vehicle, you still have to register (free
> registration by the way for all applicants), or your registration plate will be read and checked against records and if not
> registered (compliant or not), you still get a fine.
> ...


 
So every single vehicle planning to drive through/ near London has to register in advance?  Surely that can't be workable?  Does Boris wish to discourage absolutely all visitors or trade?
Please post a link as you've got me really worried now: planning to go down and visit friends/ relatives soon in my car, and I thought the congestion charge was all I had to worry about!


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## Viktor (Oct 8, 2011)

Sorry didn't make that clear...not all will have to register, some of the newer won't, but some which are compliant
now won't when the standard changes next year.   You need to read it and check how you stand for your vehicle.
Vehicles registered in N.I. have to register whether compliant or not.  Not sure about the Isle of Man.

The real problems will start when the major cities decide this is a good idea and also introduce LEZs (after all
they get the chance to fine people and raise money don't they?).


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## mustardseed (Oct 8, 2011)

Mark McGimpsey said:


> The LEZ link is here: Low Emission Zone | Transport for London
> 
> There is also another thread on the LEZ in the main index.


 
Cars and motorcycles are exempt from this.  I also typed in the registration number of my camper to be told (thankfully) that is it not subject to the LEZ.  Perhaps in future you might consider pausing before posting things that may cause people unnecessary worry?

And BTW both my car and my campervan (especially!) are not at all new but very old... ;-)


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## Viktor (Oct 8, 2011)

Eh?  can't you go Google it yourself - I'm only trying to answer your question! (which is not what this thread was about).
Yes I mentioned it in passing - but we weren't discussing it on this thread.


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## Matilda (Oct 8, 2011)

*HI stormywalters*



stormywalters said:


> Thanks.... Probably wont sit in the back when traveling but was just interested to know if it was true.
> Thanks again   Happy camping
> Stormy


 This is matilda yes the day after i met you i gave a lift to two people we met on norton farm site at Corfe castle, as they did not want to drive into Poole centre with their big motorhome, they missed the bus out side the campsite, so i said i give you lift into Poole as i have side seats in my vw and we were going that way, my good deed for day.it was nice to meet you at kimmeridge bay .  Paul and Sylvia hope we see next year.


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## Firefox (Oct 8, 2011)

LEZ only effects diesel engines and vehicles over a certain weight. It works just like the congestion charge. The cameras pick up each registration plate and it only takes a fraction of a second for the computers to check if that plate is eligible for a fine.

Regardless of whether side seats are legal for travelling or not, I would never carry passengers in them. It's an unrestrained load which will come crashing through you if you had an accident. So I'm not sure what the debate is about on this one.


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## runnach (Oct 8, 2011)

It seems I am compliant, But alas another reason to keep away from the ****hole called Great Britain.

The country has gone mad ...last one out switch the lights off

Always someone telling me what I will and wont do ....I dont think so 

Channa


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## stormywalters (Oct 16, 2011)

Matilda said:


> This is matilda yes the day after i met you i gave a lift to two people we met on norton farm site at Corfe castle, as they did not want to drive into Poole centre with their big motorhome, they missed the bus out side the campsite, so i said i give you lift into Poole as i have side seats in my vw and we were going that way, my good deed for day.it was nice to meet you at kimmeridge bay .  Paul and Sylvia hope we see next year.



Hiya... We`ve just got back from Kimmeridge this weekend, lovely weather again but not as hot. Was nice to meet you and have a chat along with all the other dub owners. We`ll be passing your neck of the woods after xmas on our way to Hayle for 4 nights. Sue and Steve  :wave:


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## cooljules (Oct 16, 2011)

stormywalters said:


> Hiya... We`ve just got back from Kimmeridge this weekend, lovely weather again but not as hot. Was nice to meet you and have a chat along with all the other dub owners. We`ll be passing your neck of the woods after xmas on our way to Hayle for 4 nights. Sue and Steve  :wave:



noooooooooo dub owners lol.  its just a van with 4 wheels.  just like any other metal box with wheels.  i cant understand the mad vw thing.


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## vwalan (Oct 16, 2011)

hi, i,m lost on this thread. campers and m,homes were exempt seatbelts in the rear till quite recently. no lts required regardless of how the seats werre arranged . they still dont need them iregistered  before the date .might be end of 2007 i think . cant remember . the law about kids does sort of change it. 
but if its not got any then adults dont need to worry you dont have them . i took mine out in the truck as they were optional. dont like wearing them and dont like being told if there are any i must wear them. sorted  
cooljules in a t25 if it was a camper you wouldnt need belts in the back. so dont fit them .


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## cooljules (Oct 16, 2011)

vwalan said:


> hi, i,m lost on this thread. campers and m,homes were exempt seatbelts in the rear till quite recently. no lts required regardless of how the seats werre arranged . they still dont need them iregistered  before the date .might be end of 2007 i think . cant remember . the law about kids does sort of change it.
> but if its not got any then adults dont need to worry you dont have them . i took mine out in the truck as they were optional. dont like wearing them and dont like being told if there are any i must wear them. sorted
> cooljules in a t25 if it was a camper you wouldnt need belts in the back. so dont fit them .



i did have a T3, now i have a LT35, 1995.  at present will be making a double side facing seat/fold out bed.


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## stormywalters (Oct 16, 2011)

Here`s the thing ~~~~~ When its a van I`ve got 6 seats in the back all front facing with seat belts. When it`s a camper i`ve got a bed Sooooo seat belts are surplace to requirements unless it`s a full moon    then I need all the help I can get.  But seriously I was just curious.... 

Cooljules     VW thing ~~~ cheeky boy  

Sue XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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## cooljules (Oct 17, 2011)

stormywalters said:


> Here`s the thing ~~~~~ When its a van I`ve got 6 seats in the back all front facing with seat belts. When it`s a camper i`ve got a bed Sooooo seat belts are surplace to requirements unless it`s a full moon    then I need all the help I can get.  But seriously I was just curious....
> 
> Cooljules     VW thing ~~~ cheeky boy
> 
> Sue XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



but i had a T3, and i have a LT35 now, vw's but still metal boxes with wheels to me.


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## ourglenard (Oct 17, 2011)

Mastodon said:


> Kids can't even behave *at home*... drive them to school on flatbed trucks and let Natural Selection do what it was designed for.



You've been to the Philippines as well then M8?!!:lol-053:


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## vwalan (Oct 17, 2011)

jules a van with seats isnt a camper .a camper can be any size. a t25 could be a mini bus .but if it contains the makings of a camper /motor home it would have been exempt . so is your lt as its not a new reg. build a camper no seat belts in the rear required even if front facing. i built campers for years still do. prefer expedition trucks now much more fun.


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## Mastodon (Oct 17, 2011)

ourglenard said:


> You've been to the Philippines as well then M8?!!:lol-053:



No, but I deal with the little mutants on a daily basis... I'm a firm believer in keeping the gene pool deep.


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