# Man fined for penkife in car



## Deleted member 2636 (Apr 16, 2010)

Disabled caravanner given criminal record for penknife in car
A disabled man who kept a Swiss Army penknife in his car to cut up fruit on picnics, has been landed with criminal record for possessing an offensive weapon. 

Any thoughts on this because I bet that lots of us have something similar

http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7593039/Disabled-caravanner-given-criminal-record-for-penknife-in-car.html


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## Scotsbob (Apr 16, 2010)

Probably the PC brigade thought he might cut himself and did it for his own safety, and some Pc Plod bucking for promotion to Chief constable.


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## Davesport (Apr 16, 2010)

Probably because he could reach it from the drivers seat 

They'de lynch me. I carry a hatchet, bowsaw & a Machette 

D.


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## bigboack (Apr 16, 2010)

Davesport said:


> Probably because he could reach it from the drivers seat
> 
> They'de lynch me. I carry a hatchet, bowsaw & a Machette
> 
> D.



They would have a field day if they stopped Lenny and he showed them his secret compartment. I would pay good money to see that one.


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## ALLERDALECHEF (Apr 16, 2010)

i took my kitchen knives to get sharpened by a guy who cuts keys etc , sharpens knives and does engraving from a van out side my local b&q .......he nearly had a fit when i handed them over as they were in an open knife rack , when he gave me them back he taped them all up with ducktape as he said the plod would knick me if they saw me carring them ! ..............i thought he was joking but it seems not ( maybe i would get away with it if i was in my chefs whites ! )


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## barryd (Apr 16, 2010)

I have a flick knife that I picked up in Portugal many years ago and it was stored on my boat for god knows how long.  It only has a 3" blade but it was really useful for fishing as you could be tying a knot and need to quickly cut a line with only one hand so you picked it up and flicked it out and cut the line.  Much easier than a lock knife or fixed blade.  I think its rusting away somewhere but is it illegal?  I would never carry it around but may put it in my van tool kit.

BD


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## nowhereman (Apr 16, 2010)

Dont understand why the guy would be done for having a Swiss army knife if the blade was 3 inches or under.
I was supporting a friend in court in Newcastle last year and on entry to the court was asked to empty my pockets. As always I had a Swiss army knife on me which was taken from me whilst I was in the court and handed back when I left. Considering there was plenty of plod and court security around then why was I not done for carrying the same item as the disabled motorist.


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## maingate (Apr 16, 2010)

Knives are sharp and can be dangerous. That is why I carry hand grenades instead.


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## ajs (Apr 17, 2010)

maingate said:


> Knives are sharp and can be dangerous. That is why I carry hand grenades instead.



 well **** don't let go.. i have the pins 

 regards
aj


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 17, 2010)

ajs said:


> well **** don't let go.. i have the pins
> 
> regards
> aj



 Is zis zem?


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## mildred (Apr 17, 2010)

barryd said:


> I have a flick knife [...] is it illegal? BD


Yes - Flick and "Gravity" knives are illegal to possess outside your place of residence.  They may not be offered for sale.  
The Law. This is a compactly written summary with links to the actual Acts if you want to "plod"(*!) through them.

Mild Red


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## mildred (Apr 17, 2010)

*Swiss Army Knives*

There are a number of genuine "Swiss Army Knives" that are illegal to carry in a public place unless you can show you have a genuine need.

Showing you have a genuine need will either cost you a lot of money in representation fees, or take up your life arguing and agonising about the craziness of the law.  Example "genuine need" might be an electric linesman who needs a knife that won't fold back on his fingers. Even so that knife had better be in a toolbox, not casually in a pocket.

Quoting from the The British Knife Collectors Guild:

*What You Can Carry ...*
The Criminal Justice Act (1988) says that you may carry a knife with a blade length of 3.0" or less so long as it is capable of folding. That means no fixed blade knives.​
That's about as simple as can be - ANY sort of lock or permanent detent mechanism makes it into a fixed blade - Go to Jail.  I've seen all sorts of clever attempts to get round that - but nobody has actually taken them to defend in court.

The three inch limit has been challenged in court - and while not setting a precedent - the choil part of the folding blade has not been included in the critical measurement.  The three inches is technically interpreted as the "cutting edge".  The means that a curved blade such as a pruning knife could fall foul of the law if carried publicly even if the overall length of the blade was under the limit.

Returning to Swiss Army Knifes, I believe the following would be inadvisable to carry casually in public, or possess outside one's place of residence:

Dual Pro, Forester (including Duals), Nomad Duals, Equestrian, Trailmaster, Hunter, Rescue tool, Picknicker, Outrider,  Rucksack, Skipper, Tradesman and Workchamp.
These fail on the simple matter of the locking blade.

From a length of blade these could get you into trouble:
Victorinox Solo, Victorinox Farmer Alox, 


I have a Workchamp which is available on my belt, in a pouch and attached to the belt by a short length of paracord.  I have modified it by reducing the length of the blade, reshaping the end from a short point to a "tanto" short edge, and critically, removing the plastic locking button from the side scale.  This is easy to do by slightly easing away the plastic scale on that side and just letting the button fall free when you have the clearance.

Whilst it pains me to have to muck around with a safe and useful knife in such a way - it does convert it from an instant "nick" to something I'm confident about leaving on my person - whether I'm working in town or on my own on private land.

And to be honest - the loss of less than .5 inch overall length has not really affected what I can do with it.

Another option on reshaping a long pointed blade would be to make something like this:
DoE knife - though I do think that is a spectacularly useless knife given the context.  As if you're going to need a Phillips whilst doing the Ten Tors!  That can opener looks less than useful too.  

Take care out there - 

Mild Red


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## Deleted member 2636 (Apr 17, 2010)

My main reason to post this was to draw everyone's attention to something that can give you a lot of stress.

The main gist of all this is that if you have a knife in the van is to make sure it is in a toolbox/cutlery drawer. I feel reasonably sure that if the man involved had not kept the in the glove compartment that he would not have got into trouble. 

The Forces of Babylon are only too happy to find something: So don't give them cause


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## Pioneer (Apr 17, 2010)

Better move my pruning saw for cutting overhanging branches you understand


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 17, 2010)

baloothebear said:


> A disabled man who kept a Swiss Army penknife in his car to cut up fruit on picnics, has been landed with criminal record for possessing an offensive weapon.
> 
> Any thoughts on this because I bet that lots of us have something similar
> 
> http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7593039/Disabled-caravanner-given-criminal-record-for-penknife-in-car.html



 Maybe it was the AK47 in his other hand that was the problem,

, or maybe they just didn't like his car.


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 17, 2010)

mildred said:


> Quoting from the The British Knife Collectors Guild:
> 
> *What You Can Carry ...*
> The Criminal Justice Act (1988) says that you may carry a knife with a blade length of 3.0" or less so long as it is capable of folding. That means no fixed blade knives.​
> That's about as simple as can be - ANY sort of lock or permanent detent mechanism makes it into a fixed blade - Go to Jail. Mild Red



Not that simple though, although it is 'locked' it can be unlocked and folded, therefore it is still capable of folding surely.


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## mildred (Apr 17, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Not that simple though, although it is 'locked' it can be unlocked and folded, therefore it is still capable of folding surely.



No - if it is capable of being locked then it is regarded as a fixed blade.  Clever things with concealed pins, rotating collars and other things will not work as a defence.  What's more you've then manufactured it ...

I'm told that if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, then even a multi-tool that has a short blade, but because of the way the handles fold the blade cannot be returned to the handle when the blade is "out" will be regarded as a lock-blade.  No defence possible. 

The knife collector and outdoor world have done this one to death - and there are plenty of stories of exotic, valuable blades being confiscated after a caution.  

Mild Red


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 17, 2010)

mildred said:


> I'm told that if you're in the wrong place, at the wrong time, then even a multi-tool that has a short blade, but because of the way the handles fold the blade cannot be returned to the handle when the blade is "out" will be regarded as a lock-blade.  No defence possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Mild Red



  Guess that's my Gerber multi ruled out then.

  Next time I'm out to do a spot of mugging I'll just stick to a good old fashioned brick then.


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## mildred (Apr 17, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Guess that's my Gerber multi ruled out then.(



In your pocket, outside a pub on a Friday night when something kicks off - probably not a good idea.  In a tool-box  whilst you're working on something - reasonable purpose. In overalls whilst doing handywork - reasonable purpose. 

What about the Bahco Mtt8674 Multitool? I have one of these, and whilst  not as "nice" as a Gerber, very functional, and the way the blades open out  can't be regarded as a lock-blade.



derekfaeberwick said:


> Next time I'm out to do a spot of mugging I'll just stick to a good old fashioned brick then.:



Make sure it's not a half-brick (AKA Brick-bat) - there's laws about them too ... (Following the Peterloo Riots).

Mild Red


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2010)

According to the Act, if a person carries in a public place a 'folding pocketknife' of which the cutting edge of the blade does not exceed 3'', he or she is committing no offence.
If such a knife is discovered by an officer of the law, he will first examine the length of the blade, and then ask ''why are you carrying a knife''. The intent of the question is designed for self implication, in other words, to ascertain if you make any indication as to the purpose being for self defense, or as a weapon. A reply such as '' It's a pocket knife and it's legal to carry one '' leaves the officer with no reason to pursue the matter. I know this from personal experience.


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## mildred (Apr 17, 2010)

Samson said:


> ... officer of the law, he will ... ask ''why are you carrying a knife''. *The intent of the question is designed for self implication*



Spot on - and any evasive or incongruous answers will result in further "investigation". I suspect this is where the chap with the SAK in the glovebox came amiss. If the knife is technically a folding one, is of legal length, the carrier is not using or displaying it inappropriately and one quietly and firmly uses Samson's incantation there is no reason for the matter to be pursued.

The line of questioning can be subtle though ... "That's an impressive knife, etc etc" and as soon as the respondent says anything about protecting yourself with it you're done for!

But you don't even get to the questioning stage if it's not a legit folder and is under the current length limit (which by the way is merely set by regulation - a new Act would not be required to drop it to say 50mm.)

Mild Red


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## Boxerman (Apr 17, 2010)

mildred said:


> Make sure it's not a half-brick (AKA Brick-bat) - there's laws about them too ... (Following the Peterloo Riots).
> 
> Mild Red



Peterloo wan't a riot it was a peaceful political meeting until the militia and dragoons charged. I've always known it as the Peterloo _*massacre*_ not riot.

This subject (carrying knives) is often discussed on sea fishing forums as an "essential" part of your tackle is a filleting knife which have fixed blades which are usually longer than 3". 
The general consensus seems to be that if it is packed away in your fishing bag/box and you're not carrying it on your person, then you are unlikely to run foul of the law.

Frank


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 18, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> Peterloo wan't a riot it was a peaceful political meeting until the militia and dragoons charged. I've always known it as the Peterloo _*massacre*_ not riot.
> 
> This subject (carrying knives) is often discussed on sea fishing forums as an "essential" part of your tackle is a filleting knife which have fixed blades which are usually longer than 3".
> The general consensus seems to be that if it is packed away in your fishing bag/box and you're not carrying it on your person, then you are unlikely to run foul of the law.
> ...



  Unlikely is not really good enough though, is it. It does really seem to be that if the Polis doesn't like you then you are going to be done.

 This should not be the case, they should be upholding the law, not making it.


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## Boxerman (Apr 18, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Unlikely is not really good enough though, is it. It does really seem to be that if the Polis doesn't like you then you are going to be done.
> 
> This should not be the case, they should be upholding the law, not making it.



Technically, carrying a very sharp fixed blade knife with a pointed blade of around 6" long is breaking the law. 

Fortunately I believe that most police officers would accept that it is not being carried to be used as an offensive weapon. I agree that there are those who only see in black and white, like the "officer" who booked someone for sneezing while driving.

One question I posed on a sea fishing forum was "why would a policeman have reason to search a law abiding angler merely pursuing his  sport?" The only answers I received were all based conjecture as despite all the ifs & buts no-one had actually been "done".

When all is said and done - we have to ask ourselves why these laws are needed? They are to help protect the general public from those individuals who would seek to kill or maim others. I can remember when many boys, myself included, walked around openly with a sheath knife on their belt, there were very few stabbings though, unlike today - a sign of the times, sadly.

Frank


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## defitzi (Apr 18, 2010)

*incredible-disgusting*



baloothebear said:


> Disabled caravanner given criminal record for penknife in car
> A disabled man who kept a Swiss Army penknife in his car to cut up fruit on picnics, has been landed with criminal record for possessing an offensive weapon.
> 
> Any thoughts on this because I bet that lots of us have something similar
> ...



defitzi: Whatever is Britain coming to? Police get more and more Fascist daily and we've allowed this govenment (who must not be reelected without supervision from  the LIB-Dems, Scots Nats, Cymru abd the NI parties( anymore than  the Tories either).
But as it did happen- how did it get past a magistratye? Or are our Magistrates just apparachiks-little Stalinists?
It is incredible -it is indeed a dark day when such infringments of human rights are not only permitted but6 comitted by the so called guardians of law and order.
In the light of another recent report of an onslaught on senior citizens , convictions for dozens of minor mainly bureaucratic offences, all with the aim of increason  figures, it is apparent there is now a move to elm iinate serious are "too" costly  to be worth keeping.
Link this to the cries for euthanasia and...
Stinks to heaven of a Pol Pot-resurection-doesn'it?
I herby give notice to every jackbooted plod, grey-suited Gauleiter, bent  Chief Constable in search of targets, and their Home Office ilk, that I  have in my motorhome a drawer full of assorted extremely sharp knives and may the devil take them and their increasing corruption. It  in increasingly clear that they are but nasty, bigoted, brutish, baton wielding, murdering thugs in uniform with a licence to behave as they do.


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## defitzi (Apr 18, 2010)

might depend on the location of the boat-afloat .its equipement.
On shore? Well.....
yet anothert Stalinist result of rushing through laws in knee jerks manipulated by Rupert 
Murdoch and Co.


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## defitzi (Apr 18, 2010)

so-let's punish the innocent to get at the guilty.....
Is that what's called the rights of man perhaps?


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## Samson (Apr 18, 2010)

There are provisions in the Act for persons carrying fix blade knives on their person, including anglers, people camping etc. though they would not usually be doing so in a strictly 'public place'. A fisherman with a knife in his box or someone camping in the woods with a knife would not be prosecuted if they can demonstrate the obvious reasons for the harmless purpose of the knife.
I carry and use a fixed blade knife every working day as it is essential for the purpose of my work as I am a flooring contractor, and often this is on my person in a public place. If a policeman took exception to me and tried to 'test' the law, I have no doubt that his case would not stand up in a court of law. The police are not the law, they merely enforce it, and often dont absolutely fully understand it in all of it's detail. I once read a very lengthy debate on a police forum about the legality of an officer carrying a folding knife on his person. Some said that it could be argued that it could be invaluable for say, cutting a person free from a seat belt in an emergency. Another made the point that it is not part of official kit and so is illegal. And yet another commented that he always carries one, and that if he was in a situation where the s### hit the fan, he would use it to save his life because he would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6! And the discussion didn't reach any conclusion.
The problem is that a lot of citizens if charged wrongly for an offence, will plead guilty and are afraid of challenging the police.
The best way to deal with any policeman who approaches you is to show him the greatest amount of respect and humility, regardless of how you feel, both in your manner and in your facial expressions. They appreciate this as they often get the reverse, and will be more likely to treat you in a reasonable manner.


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## defitzi (Apr 20, 2010)

*samson*

yes u have it about right- intheory. In olden(golden) days when our polis wus not corrupt; hell bent on filling quotas and when police inspectors decided whah to prosecut or not-what was a good case or not worth pursuing one could respect the police force and the way the law was adminsitered.
Sadly no longer: It's mostly now a Stalinist society with Fascist police, who think it is they who interpret and decide the law.
Personally, I despise a policeing society in  which officers pick on the elderley because so many of us don't know how to fight back. They do so  to make target figures. To me, that is the real ending of decency and democracy.
I have lost respect for the police years back -they do not deserve it. Fortunately with a (considerable) knowledge of common law, and jurisprudence, I am (thankfuly) in a position a) to challenge these Fascist interpretations and B) show my disdain without fear of heavy handed, unjust, retribution, which is not always the case for other's less fortunate tha I am in this regard!
I believe the root cause of our legal; and policing problems is the increasing adoption of foreign legal systems- a combination of American (written Constitution) and European (Roman) legal systems.


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## biggirafe (Apr 20, 2010)

The link to the article does does not work but another one here does
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Man with penknife in his car is handed a criminal record

You should be able to publicise stupid things like this so that the police force in question are not allowed to forget how daft they made themselves look. If I lived in Torbay I would be asking the chief constable and local MP why this was allowed to go to court, what a waste of public money.


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## Boxerman (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for this working link I hadn't read the "details" before so didn't comment. 

Reading between the lines:

The knife in the photo cannot be the one in question as that was confiscated. Looking at it, and after reading the various posts here, mainly referring to Samson's and Mildred's, it appears to be a folding blade knife with a blade of less than 3 inches and therefore quite legal. 

If this is so, why did his defence advise him to plead guilty? - I notice that there is no hue and cry about wrongful legal advice. Perhaps the one in the photo wasn't like the knife in question, perhaps his knife was much different - he paid £30 for it, would you pay £30 for a knife like the one he is holding - "just to peel fruit"?

Targeting the elderly? he's younger than I am and I don't feel targeted. 

Registered disabled - what's that got to do with anything? there are various degrees of disability, I used to work with a guy who was registered disabled, he had lost the little finger on one hand, didn't seem to limit him much! The guy in question manages to get to the pub OK and he's a caravanner so he isn't a cripple (pardon the expression).

Walks with a cane - I use a walking pole when my back's troubling me but it doesn't mean I'm an invalid - I remember when I was a kid there was an old bloke (probably younger than I am now) down our street who used to walk with a stick. A real nasty ******* he was, forever swiping at kids, dogs, cats and sometimes adults with it - he would have been banged up nowadays *and rightly so!*. Walking with a cane does not make you a nice old man or woman.

Many people on this forum say they don't trust the police (many don't appear to trust anybody) I don't trust the media, particularly "newspapers", they manipulate stories such as these and only tell half the tale - the more sensational the better - blowing things up beyond all proportion.

There are two sides to every story - I think there's more to this tale than has been told.

Frank


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## Chrissy (Apr 20, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> I don't trust the media, particularly "newspapers", they manipulate stories such as these and only tell half the tale - the more sensational the better - blowing things up beyond all proportion.
> 
> There are two sides to every story - I think there's more to this tale than has been told.
> 
> Frank



Too true - I don't buy newspapers and the news on tele is as bad with conflicting reports on the same station, never mind between stations especially with regard to "facts"  and statistics


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## biggirafe (Apr 20, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> Thanks for this working link I hadn't read the "details" before so didn't comment.
> 
> Reading between the lines:
> 
> ...



Thats very true, The press will normally only provide what they feel makes the story better reading (in their opinion).

I still have to wonder what this chap could have done to require a court case costing us all several thousands of pounds, even if he was a beligerant old git and made a fuss about being stopped and then his car searched you would have thought that someone in the police station would have seen sense and maybe cautioned him. 

I'm not usually one to knock the lads but unless he stabbed or threatened to stab someone I really can think of any reason why this should have been brought before the courts


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## Boxerman (Apr 20, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> I'm not usually one to knock the lads but unless he stabbed or threatened to stab someone I really can think of any reason why this should have been brought before the courts



Exactly my point - there's more to this than the papers would like us to believe.

Frank


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## biggirafe (Apr 20, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> Exactly my point - there's more to this than the papers would like us to believe.
> 
> Frank




Maybe, but if he had stabbed someone or gone berserk I expect the papers would have run that story as it would be much better reading.

'Drunken Disabled Pensioner goes mad in Torbay with Swiss Army knife, Join our campaign to ban the Knife, The Swiss and Pensioners' 

Perhaps your dislike of the newspapers Frank is colouring your view in the same way others have instantly jumped on the anti police and authority bandwagon. 

Truth is we will probably never know.

Has anyone ever used the tool for removing stones from horses hooves, this is what i wanna know
Mark


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## Boxerman (Apr 20, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> Maybe, but if he had stabbed someone or gone berserk I expect the papers would have run that story as it would be much better reading.
> 
> 'Drunken Disabled Pensioner goes mad in Torbay with Swiss Army knife, Join our campaign to ban the Knife, The Swiss and Pensioners'
> 
> ...



Actually Mark I don't really care one way or the other - he may have been victimised and he may not. I was just trying to get people to look at it from another angle instead of assuming that everything the papers say is gospel.

As Barry Sheene said of the Motor Cycle News "never let the truth stand in the way of a good story"

I have never attempted to remove a stone from a horses hoof. I believe that horses hooves and stones should be kept as far apart as possible - especially if the stones in question belong to me.

Rgds
Frank


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## kenjones (Apr 20, 2010)

I have a Swiss army knife and by the time I work out which bit to open it is anything but an offensive weapon.
On a more serious note I carry a 6" kitchen knife in my camper for food preparation. If it were on my person then yes it would be an offensive weapon.
How do we stand having an innocent utensil when on the road?


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## biggirafe (Apr 20, 2010)

kenjones said:


> I have a Swiss army knife and by the time I work out which bit to open it is anything but an offensive weapon.
> On a more serious note I carry a 6" kitchen knife in my camper for food preparation. If it were on my person then yes it would be an offensive weapon.
> How do we stand having an innocent utensil when on the road?



Should be in a tool box or in a utensil draw. Not in the dashboard or under the drivers seat


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## G4GMO (Apr 20, 2010)

So should I not carry a 9 inch sharp pointed bread knife and a similar meat knife in my mh kept in the cutlery drawer? Jeez better become a vegetarian and just carry a peeler.


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## Samson (Apr 20, 2010)

G4GMO said:


> So should I not carry a 9 inch sharp pointed bread knife and a similar meat knife in my mh kept in the cutlery drawer? Jeez better become a vegetarian and just carry a peeler.


I carry several brand new ( razor sharp ) long knives in my camper, to cut vegetables, meat and fish of course. I wouldn't even worry about it.


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## Samson (Apr 21, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> Should be in a tool box or in a utensil draw. Not in the dashboard or under the drivers seat



And I know an ex special forces guy who used to keep a knife under his drivers seat. Only, it was wedged in between the floor and the underside of the seat with the blade facing upwards, in case anyone tried to steal his car. I'm sure this is illegal. Ouch!


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## mildred (Jun 17, 2010)

*at last - the reason why*

Remember the story about the caravanner pensioner who got nicked for having a Swiss Army Knife "for peeling fruit" in the glovebox?

The story is out now - it wasn't a SAK - it was a lock-blade for which he had no good reason to carry in public, and he had made threats to use it offensively.

Looks like he got off lightly - no wonder his brief advised him to plead guilty - something which I couldn't understand at the time.

Here's the update: Police: Why we arrested disabled 'fruit knife' man

and here's a review of the knife in question (as best I can identify it - the Buck Whitaker X-tract - a handy looking tool it must be said, but not one to leave in your glovebox, in case you have to peel some fruit!

multitool.org - Buck X-Tract

Be safe, be careful

Mild Red


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## maingate (Jun 17, 2010)

I hope my van is never searched.

I will get more than a fine if they see what I have.


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## barnybg (Jun 19, 2010)

*The law ?*

I think searching a person or a car,compared to a caravan or motorhome,is totally different surely !even a works vehicle or van,if in working hours,you are going to find many dangerous objects that could be said to be 'risky' but sense should prevail and as long as the driver wasn't running up the road,weilding his chainsaw,axe,pick,hammer,stanley knife,saw,level etc then ok,on the other hand someone standing at a traffic lights for instance with an open 'lock knife' or similar,is normally up to no good ??! and should be stopped,questioned and arrested ! there again it depends on where you live and what the courts dish out,for instance a man while drunk and disordely,having argued decided to run down the main shopping area of  South Wales valley weilding a large machette and shouting out obseneties,was given a years probation,as he was suffering from 'stress' another similar done it with a samarai sword ,high on drugs....oh poor bugger,let him off and give him £100 a week on the sick ,the UK is in a right mess.


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## kenjones (Jun 19, 2010)

mildred said:


> Remember the story about the caravanner pensioner who got nicked for having a Swiss Army Knife "for peeling fruit" in the glovebox?
> 
> The story is out now - it wasn't a SAK - it was a lock-blade for which he had no good reason to carry in public, and he had made threats to use it offensively.
> 
> ...



Thank you for clearing this up.
It's a shame the original report was so misleading.


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## widu13 (Jun 19, 2010)

Headlines sell newspapers, facts don't. 

I still can't believe however, that in today's modern age people actually fully believe what they read in a newspaper and then spout off about it without knowing the facts! Incredible.


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## Boxerman (Jun 20, 2010)

mildred said:


> Remember the story about the caravanner pensioner who got nicked for having a Swiss Army Knife "for peeling fruit" in the glovebox?
> 
> The story is out now - it wasn't a SAK - it was a lock-blade for which he had no good reason to carry in public, and he had made threats to use it offensively.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this, I was sure that there was more to this case than what was reported in the media. Is it any wonder that some people have a low opinion of the police force when newspapers twist the truth (lie even) in order to sensationalise a story and deliberately make the police look bad?

The comments underneath make interesting reading as well - it seems that the "poor old disabled chap" was a nasty piece of work really.

Rgds
Frank


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## T4Guy (Jun 23, 2010)

*Pen Knives*

Think it's just crazy that someone could be fined for having Swiss Army knife in the car.  I have a swiss Army knife and 2 Leathermans, one of which is very illegal as it has a locking blade, as a result i keep it in my kitchen gadget box in my Camper.

Interesting fact you may find amusing or make you angry.  I work with Young Offenders and my work is often at the Police Station.  Whilst at the Police Station i have noticed that several Officers with Leathermans on their belts..  One Rule for Us and One Rule for the others I guess...


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## Boxerman (Jun 23, 2010)

T4Guy said:


> Think it's just crazy that someone could be fined for having Swiss Army knife in the car.



He didn't get fined for having a _*Swiss Army Knife*_ in the car! read Police: Why we arrested disabled 'fruit knife' man

The papers told porkies

Rgds
Frank


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## Samson (Jun 23, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> He didn't get fined for having a _*Swiss Army Knife*_ in the car! read Police: Why we arrested disabled 'fruit knife' man
> 
> The papers told porkies
> 
> ...



This only goes to prove the comments made earlier by Mildred and myself, that you can carry a folding knife with a cutting edge of no more than 3 inches, providing there is never any indication or intent to use it in an improper manner.
Incidentally, I have never read anything (from a legal source) to indicate that if the folding knife 'locks', it then ceases to become a folding knife. Any folding knife that doesn't lock when opened, is very dangerous to use. The possibilities of slicing off your own finger with it are real indeed.


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jun 24, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> He didn't get fined for having a _*Swiss Army Knife*_ in the car! read Police: Why we arrested disabled 'fruit knife' man
> 
> The papers told porkies



The papers didn't get it wrong but the Police prosecuting Council did. It was Council who first called it a SAK. The newspapers just reported what was said in Court


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## Boxerman (Jun 24, 2010)

I stand corected 

Rgds
Frank


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jun 24, 2010)

Boxerman said:


> I stand corected
> 
> Rgds
> Frank



No worries Frank - I'll bet that the Rozzers had more than a few words with that Prosecuter after the trial though


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## mildred (Jun 24, 2010)

Samson said:


> Incidentally, I have never read anything (from a legal source) to indicate that if the folding knife 'locks', it then ceases to become a folding knife. Any folding knife that doesn't lock when opened, is very dangerous to use. The possibilities of slicing off your own finger with it are real indeed.



A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife (It's a "Police" source - not sure if that's what you mean by a legal source). 

I'm still scarred from a knife closing up across my fingers whilst scraping the paint out of a screw holding a door lock.   However - I've removed the locking mechanism from my favourite Swiss Army *and* shortened the blade so that I can carry it around without problem.

Mild Red


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## Deleted member 2636 (Jun 25, 2010)

Just as an aside to all this: If you ever go to a so-called Bushmoot, or Bushcraft meeting, everyone and I mean everyone, men, women and children will be carrying fixed blade knives


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## Samson (Jun 26, 2010)

mildred said:


> A lock knife is not a folding pocket knife (It's a "Police" source - not sure if that's what you mean by a legal source).
> 
> Mild Red


 
Thanks Mildred, and interesting.
Though I have to wonder why this interpretation of the law, or addition to it, isn't included in the legal 'Act'. 
I have known the police to 'interpret the law' before and for this to be rejected by the courts, though your source does seem to be an official police statement. I suppose as a solicitor would view it, recent court precedents would have to be examined to determine the true answer. But now I'm not sure what to think.


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## mildred (Jun 26, 2010)

Samson said:


> I suppose as a solicitor would view it, recent court precedents would have to be examined to determine the true answer



Here you go then:



> HARRIS v DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS; FEHMI v SAME
> 
> QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
> 
> ...



Locking knives - irrespective of length - are not legal everyday carry in your pocket items.  You must have *good* reason to have them in the context in which you possess them.

There's a bit of legal discussion here that mentions Opinels if anybody is _really_ interested.

We can go on and on about how a lock blade is safer, but we are whistling in the wind.

Mild Red


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## Samson (Jun 27, 2010)

mildred said:


> Here you go then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that has cleared that up nicely, and I stand corrected.
Many thanks Mildred.


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## cebo2005 (Jun 27, 2010)

*cebo2005*

why don't site administraors, look for a good solicitor for members to use to put PC PLODDERS in their place? suggestion only but what do members think?


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## mildred (Jun 27, 2010)

cebo2005 said:


> why don't site administraors, look for a good solicitor for members to use to put PC PLODDERS in their place?



It would take more than a good solicitor to establish a rebuttal of R v. Harris.  In Deegan v Regina the Judge, whilst upholding the conviction, agreed that the law regarding lock knives was not in the spirit of Section 139.  Never-the-less he did not do anything to redress the balance - I suspect because it was not politically desirable to water down the main Act given the vocal public concerns about "knife crime".

This is a case of bad law, which is probably here to stay.  PC Plodders has little option but to apply the test of 3 inch length and "does it close without pressing a catch, or releasing a lock". If that's OK then "On your way" (unless you're being an ar***e) - if it fails then you better have "good reason" to have the lock blade in public. If there's any doubt then get nicked and have your day in court.

<RANT MODE ON>
There's a lot of bad law on the books - almost any rights movement can give you their pet examples, but whilst we have MPs that are selected on charisma and political agenda rather than demonstrable rational thinking that's the price of democracy. 
<RANT OFF>


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## winchman (Jun 28, 2010)

I thought the current law stated " bladed instrument" then you could be done for carrying anything sharp wih out good reason


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## winchman (Jun 28, 2010)

widu13 said:


> Headlines sell newspapers, facts don't.
> 
> I still can't believe however, that in today's modern age people actually fully believe what they read in a newspaper and then spout off about it without knowing the facts! Incredible.



This hapens all too often, the press print what they want, the peole who know the truth are often shocked at how wrong it can be , but they have a far smaller voice so cant be heard


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## mildred (Jun 28, 2010)

winchman said:


> I thought the current law stated " bladed instrument" then you could be done for carrying anything sharp wih out good reason



Criminal Justice Act 1988 CHAPTER 33, Section 139, doesn't, as you can read for yourself, use the term "bladed instrument", though the phrase has often been used in learned and amateur commentary upon the Act and subsequent cases.

The "sharpness" is irrelevant - Booker v DPP 169J.P. 368.DC set the amazing precedent of an offense for a non-sharp, non-pointed, butterknife blade. The fact that it was a fixed blade was all that it took for the conviction to be upheld and the appeal dismissed

You *can* carry a sharp "bladed instrument"in public  - so long as it is in the form of a folding (and we've been through the folding issue already) penknife with a cutting edge not exceeding 3 inches or should that extremely simple test fail then it up to the carrier to prove:

"good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place" and that the following are acceptable. 

he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.

But you'll still need a very good barrister to make your case.  

*Which can be done* - This bit of kit 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 was being carried in a car (which is technically a public place) to a London nightclub. The jury at Southwark Crown Court considered that it was a perfectly reasonable thing to carry for religious reasons: 
Student's flagellator was not an offensive weapon, court rules - Telegraph


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