# No Gaslow or Health & Safety vigilantes.REFILLING PROPANE



## rickboy (Dec 5, 2009)

Has anyone been successful in decanting the last knockings of gas from one cylinder into another or refilling a smaller cylinder from a fuller  and or larger one.
I always seem to end up with big cylinders with small amounts of gas in.

I do not want to go down the Gaslow,fixed tank route but retain max flexability for foreign gas cylnder use which is usually cheap enough and I have some adaptors.

 I have seen  a large cylinder suspended upside down with a hose connected to a cylinder below.As far as my translation could understand "it takes a while but gravity does the trick ." Or was the trick on me????

Obviously you need high presure hose with good connections(Not just hose clips) and cylinders with shut offs.

My quest for you experience please.

Do the cylinders just equalize in pressure.Or does the head of pressure force more into the lower cylinder.

How much "Head" does it take ,1/2 mtr  , 1mtr , more? And how long in time?

I guess its easy enough to plast the air out of the connecting hose but what about the gas in the lower cylinder?
Would that be able to bubble up the connector into the upper cylinder?


THIS IS NOT FOR THE FEINT HEARTED OF YOU /ITS MORE 3rd WORLD EXPERIENCE ,KNOWLEDGE I AM LOOKING FOR.

Caravan Club members do not concern yourselfs with this type of thing.

PLEASE PLEASE DON'T GO INTO GENERATOR  ,GAS FILLING ADAPTOR MODE!!
JUST YOUR EXPERIENCE  IF YOU HAVE ANY ,NOT A SERMON.

Thanks Guys and Gals


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## derekfaeberwick (Dec 5, 2009)

VWAlan's your man.  You might have just missed him though, try a p.m.


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## maingate (Dec 5, 2009)

Go ahead and do what you want.

Been nice knowing you

ps; can I have your boots


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## rickboy (Dec 5, 2009)

*My boots? Could you fill them??*

Note .I am asking if anyone else has done it first!!! 
Before I try.   I am brave not stupid, and yes you can have my boots and shoes if you wish. Size 9 1/2 ,44


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## maingate (Dec 5, 2009)

A Propane bottle must be kept in the upright position at all times when in use ie: when the valve has been opened. 

If this is not complied with, it is not a case of Health and Safety but a case of utter stupidity. If anyone says they do it then best of luck to them. I have seen the results of accidents with industrial gases. If they had, then they would change their minds.


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## rickboy (Dec 5, 2009)

*No.*

I'll take that as a "no" then for the job as as my assistant.

Thanks for your input.


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## bigtrev8xl (Dec 5, 2009)

rickboy said:


> THIS IS NOT FOR THE FEINT HEARTED OF YOU /ITS MORE 3rd WORLD EXPERIENCE ,KNOWLEDGE I AM LOOKING FOR.
> 
> Caravan Club members do not concern yourselfs with this type of thing.
> 
> ...




I suggest you ask someone in the third world then.
I wouldn't waste my time

Big Trev.


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## biggirafe (Dec 5, 2009)

TBH mate gas is cheap, Apart from heating in the winter which you use perhaps every other weekend (full timers different). Even buying gas in red bottles is not that expensve that I would bother with this agro or risk. You could blow yourself up for the price of a pint of beer.


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## coventrycraig (Dec 5, 2009)

Ive heard of this before.

One of my caravanning customers (im a roofer) told me he puts the bottle upside down on a bench and fills up the gas bottle below - obvously requiring two adaptors and some hose.

I think he only does it when he goes abroad to keep gas levels high i.e he dosnt want to run out.

Hopefully someone else will know a little more....

Craig


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## Norris (Dec 5, 2009)

Mmm, a mate of mine used to refill his van with bottled gas if he "found" a spare bottle. He used to have the donor bottle upside down so that he was transferring liquid rather than gas. When I pointed out that he would only transfer it until the pressure equalised, he said that that was when he would tip hot water over the donor bottle to expand the gas in the bottle and chase the rest of the LPG out. He said he was shown how to do it by a gas fitter.


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## runnach (Dec 5, 2009)

this post is getting more and more scary 
Channa


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## coventrycraig (Dec 5, 2009)

yes, yes.. thats what the chap said pooring hot water over - its just come back to me!

Craig


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## AndyC (Dec 5, 2009)

Does it work? - Yes
Have I seen it done? -  Yes
Would I suggest it to anyone - NO!

AndyC


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## shortcircuit (Dec 6, 2009)

Not on subject, but went to collect a car chassis from a yard. Forklift was out of gas and owner could not slacken off regulator. Came out with a blow torch and heated head of cylinder to slacken off.

I was at the gates peering round a corner waiting for the big bang.

Have not heard of what the OP inquires of being done, but you never no.


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## rickboy (Dec 6, 2009)

*Real Man!!!*

Now he sounds like a real man ,just the sort to ask.You don't find many
Namby Pamby breakers do you.


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## John H (Dec 6, 2009)

Was once on a campsite where the guy next to me tried to do this. He ended up filling the air around us with gas, frightened the rest of us to death and nearly ended up with the two cylinders rammed where the sun don't shine. If you think you can do better, you are free to try but don't do it anywhere near a McLouis Glen 690G or I might emerge and politely tell you all this in person.


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## runnach (Dec 6, 2009)

John H said:


> Was once on a campsite where the guy next to me tried to do this. He ended up filling the air around us with gas, frightened the rest of us to death and nearly ended up with the two cylinders rammed where the sun don't shine. If you think you can do better, you are free to try but don't do it anywhere near a McLouis Glen 690G or I might emerge and politely tell you all this in person.



Good for you , I dont think I would be polite. 

A subliminal pressure is my van is my home, someone damages it not bricks and mortar to return too.

A pressure of fulltiming, often forgotten. 

Channa


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## fugglestick (Dec 6, 2009)

I think this is pretty easy to do. 

A chap I know did this,  decanting a 15KG into a 32 kg.  
It wasnt the decanting that took the time but scraping his remains, what few there was, from the ruins of his nearby workshop. 



I have run a fleet of LPG vans for 15 years, and with a 1 ton LPG tank, its very safe. Probably safer that petrol. I have gone down the Gaslow route, and use their bottles in my MH, for the BBQ and even in the super Ser portable heaters. I even replaced my acetylene bottle for one. [Now acetylene, that does go with a big bang...] If you follow the rules, its ok [enter common sense here] and can save a fortune. With the low cost of the Gaslow bottle and accessories, messing around with part filled bottles to save a few quid, 'aint worth the risk or giving your nearest and dearest a messy job to do. Forget it and stay alive.


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## rickboy (Dec 6, 2009)

*Volatile*

You folks are more volatile than propane.I only asked if anyone had any experience of this. 
This is WILD CAMPING isn't it ? 
 Do you guys all wear safety goggles to read the paper and a waterproof apron to drink a cuppa?


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## maingate (Dec 6, 2009)

Go forth and multiply my son


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## rickboy (Dec 6, 2009)

*Daddy!!!!*

At last !!!  Now I know who my farther is.  Kill the fatted calf,the prodigal son returns.


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## maingate (Dec 6, 2009)

Sorry lad, you are not my son. You see brains run in our family so you cannot be a relation. 

I knew a bloke very much like you who could have been your dad but he died in a fire.


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## Norris (Dec 6, 2009)

rickboy said:


> You folks are more volatile than propane.I only asked if anyone had any experience of this.
> This is WILD CAMPING isn't it ?
> Do you guys all wear safety goggles to read the paper and a waterproof apron to drink a cuppa?



Cuppa tea??? Cuppa tea??? With all the chemicals in it??? Not to mention the risk involved with all that boiling water!! What you think this forum is -- a site for ruffty tuffty campers!! Bugger.


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## rickboy (Dec 7, 2009)

I thought it was!!!


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## rickboy (Dec 7, 2009)

*Touche'*



maingate said:


> Sorry lad, you are not my son. You see brains run in our family so you cannot be a relation.
> 
> I knew a bloke very much like you who could have been your dad but he died in a fire.



Touche'. I will concede.

Thanks for the banter.


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## Mastodon (Dec 7, 2009)

I think you could do this with a funnel if it was a _really_ cold day. Could practice my fire juggling to keep warm while I was waiting for the gravity thing to work.


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## maingate (Dec 7, 2009)

In theory, you could transfer Butane by hand if the ambient temperature was below zero as the boiling point of Butane is -0.5 degrees C. 

Propane has a boiling point of -42.1 degrees C and is much more dangerous. If it was safe to do it, your fingers would be frozen on to the metal.


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## rickboy (Dec 9, 2009)

Mastodon said:


> I think you could do this with a funnel if it was a _really_ cold day. Could practice my fire juggling to keep warm while I was waiting for the gravity thing to work.


 I was hoping you would do your usual chain saw juggling act!!
How many is it now ,3?

Or is it only women who can multi task?


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## Hallii (Dec 16, 2009)

I do it using a proper connecting hose from a 13Kg Calor to a 907 GAZ, and have done it with others.

Use a proper connector and have a valve at each end. You cannot use a regulator as there will be a non return valve in it, use a simple connector.

.5 mtr head will allow liquid to flow but it is slow, just leave it for an hour or more, it will get there eventually. There is no need to heat anything, just let it do it's thing. I stand the 907 on a set of bathroom scales.

Weigh the cylinder full and empty and make 100% sure that it has only the weight of liquid allowed, this is marked on the cylinder. You must leave a space above the liquid for expansion of about 20%.

Do not use old cylinders, they might be rusty inside or outside.

Do it outdoors, no naked lights, well ventilated etc. Just use common sense, LPG is Highly flammable and explosive with air, (but then so is petrol, cellulose thinners, natural (in your house) gas, and lots of other things.

The cost of an exchange 907 is £21. DIY is £4. No contest.

I make home made fireworks as well but that is a grey area law wise so I wont go into that.

Anon (I have hijacked Halli's account to post this)


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## bigboack (Dec 16, 2009)

Slightly off subject here but when where I worked we used big industrial presses, these were charged with Oxygen free Nitrogen, Now on this particular day some numpty of a fitter charged the press with Oxygen. Well you can imagine the first time the press came down, it went with an all mighty bang and the fitter ended up in hospital with major serious burns and a burst ear drum. He wont do that again. Some say his hair piece was blown off also so you can imagine how many  wigs were handed in over the next few months. True story this.


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## rickboy (Dec 17, 2009)

*Thanks*



Hallii said:


> I do it using a proper connecting hose from a 13Kg Calor to a 907 GAZ, and have done it with others.
> 
> Use a proper connector and have a valve at each end. You cannot use a regulator as there will be a non return valve in it, use a simple connector.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for your interesting post/reply to my original enquiry
Rick


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## maingate (Jan 18, 2010)

I have resurrected this old (and very contentious) thread for one reason only. Various threads have mentioned refilling bottles and weighing them to find out how much gas is still in them.

Well!!!!!.......  I have the answer and it is simples. 

A poster on another forum says that he sprays a bit of hot water on to his gas bottle and then feels the bottle (starting from the bottom) and is able to tell pretty accurately where the liquid gas ends, by the temperature difference.

I actually believe he could be correct, so why don`t you good people, especially the autogas users give it a try and report back.  The people with scales, who weigh their bottles could also try it.

This is not a wind up.


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## Kontiki (Jan 19, 2010)

I think this would only work if you are taking gas off, as it evaporates inside the bottle  it requires heat so the liquid is colder than the gas in the bottle. Only the same as the magnetic things you can stick on the side of the bottle to show the level. They only work when you are using gas & even then you need to be taking quite a bit out for it to show.

I use scales & I can weigh re-fillable bottle in situ using luggage scales. In my van I have a seat above the gas locker, taking the cushion off I drilled a small hole & using a chord attached to a  plate I fixed to the gas bottle I can get a pretty good weight after loosening the straps holding the bottle. I have confirmed it by weighing it before re-filling & working on 1kg = 2Litres I am within 0.5 of a litre with my estimated weight.


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## maingate (Jan 19, 2010)

Hi Kontiki,

My thinking is that the liquid gas is around -45 degrees. That is the point that Propane freezes. The area above it is filled with gas, so it has `melted`, if you know what I mean. 

What the difference in temperature will be, I have no idea but I think there will be one.

BTW; If you have drilled a hole down through the top of your gas locker, do not expect any insurance payout if things go wrong. The locker must be sealed off from the habitation area.


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## Kontiki (Jan 19, 2010)

If liquid gas was -45 degrees you wouldn't be able to touch the bottle, it's only when you take gas off it needs heat to vaporize that is why the liquid part of the bottle becomes cooler. Check the temperature of any bottle left standing for some time & there would no or virtually very little. Just look at a bottle connected up to one of those gas heaters & you will see ice on the side.

BTW the hole I drilled was a number 60 drill 1mm just slightly larger than the nylon cord I used, LPG is heavier than air & the bottom of the gas locker has a mesh covered drop out hole of about 1.5" x 4".


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## maingate (Jan 19, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> If liquid gas was -45 degrees you wouldn't be able to touch the bottle, it's only when you take gas off it needs heat to vaporize that is why the liquid part of the bottle becomes cooler. Check the temperature of any bottle left standing for some time & there would no or virtually very little. Just look at a bottle connected up to one of those gas heaters & you will see ice on the side.
> 
> BTW the hole I drilled was a number 60 drill 1mm just slightly larger than the nylon cord I used, LPG is heavier than air & the bottom of the gas locker has a mesh covered drop out hole of about 1.5" x 4".


You need to read up on Boyle`s Law.


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## Deleted member 775 (Jan 20, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> TBH mate gas is cheap, Apart from heating in the winter which you use perhaps every other weekend (full timers different). Even buying gas in red bottles is not that expensve that I would bother with this agro or risk. You could blow yourself up for the price of a pint of beer.



just to let you know about gas usage being full time .we use a small 6kg bottle for cooking and that lasts 6 weeks on average they are round about 16 quid for propain and a 15 kg calor for heating lasts mabey just over a fortnight they are 26 quid so all in all i dont think that is too bad heluva lot cheaper than our bills used to be at home


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## cipro (Jan 21, 2010)

mandrake said:


> just to let you know about gas usage being full time .we use a small 6kg bottle for cooking and that lasts 6 weeks on average they are round about 16 quid for propain and a 15 kg calor for heating lasts mabey just over a fortnight they are 26 quid so all in all i dont think that is too bad heluva lot cheaper than our bills used to be at home


 
Would it not be cheaper and easer to use gasflo system because you are 
one of the full timers on this site, and I am sure this subject has been
brought before


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## Kontiki (Jan 21, 2010)

maingate said:


> You need to read up on Boyle`s Law.




Would that be Susan Boyle  Prefer sod's law myself though.

If the liquid propane inside the cylinder is left standing will get to whatever the ambient temperature is, it is only when you draw gas off that it needs to 'boil' so it can vaporize. This it can do at a low temperature, in doing so it needs to draw heat in from the cylinder so the part with the liquid in gets cooler & if you are taking a lot of gas off for a reasonable time you can see ice forming on the outside of the cylinder.


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## Deleted member 775 (Jan 22, 2010)

cipro said:


> Would it not be cheaper and easer to use gasflo system because you are
> one of the full timers on this site, and I am sure this subject has been
> brought before



yes that woul be ideal, but unfortunatly the expence rules it out at the moment if i had the cash spare i would change tommorow the old pensions wont run to it i am afraid and the savings must be kept for an emergency


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## Kontiki (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree the refillable systems initial outlay isn't cheap, but you could always get one of the adapters off ebay for filling the the normal propane bottles. always make sure the bottle is empty then you can safely re-fill it to the specified weight. If you are worried about over filling then just put a bit less in, I work on 1 kg  = 2 litres (from memory I think 1 litre = .504 kg) so on a 6 kg bottle it should be about 11.9 litres so just stick in 11 litres.

I have a Countrywide account where I have a key I can get gas from any of their LPG filling points (problem is they aren't all over the country but most are not by a shop or anything they are just self service) they have my card details & they take the cash direct from my bank. I was able to tell them I am only using it for domestic use & don't pay the fuel vat rate. It costs nothing to sign up & you get a booklet listing the filling points (if anybody's interested I have a leaflet somewhere & I think I get something if you sign up if you put my details in for referring )


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## defitzi (Apr 10, 2010)

*interesting and*

 Most interesting and betimes, very very funny  was this but returning to sanity France( Belge too) and I think Germany-probably many others countries by now are fast introducing plastic gas bottles (11/50kg as opposed to the old steel 13.50). They have a guage built in so you can see just how much gas is used/left to use-maybe not the last drop but enough for a timely warning of impending empty.
There are now new 7.5 bottles (various shapes) but the best I think is th cube-fits neatly most spots. These 7.5s are interchangeable with the 13.56s- very useful.
So nowadays I carry one 13.5 connected and a cube in case it runs out before i can buy a refill-which has never hapened such is th universal availibility of gas in France.
Another quick point : it note all that expensive to fit a guage to the gaspipe!
Universal regulators which attach to all proprietory bottles, will work with either size.
for comparison,the biggest camping gaz is only 2.5 -ok for the BBQ or whatever but hugely expensive to but and lots and lots  more expensive than the ordinary domestic bottles to refil.


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## biggirafe (Apr 10, 2010)

Kontiki said:


> If liquid gas was -45 degrees you wouldn't be able to touch the bottle, it's only when you take gas off it needs heat to vaporize that is why the liquid part of the bottle becomes cooler. Check the temperature of any bottle left standing for some time & there would no or virtually very little. Just look at a bottle connected up to one of those gas heaters & you will see ice on the side.
> 
> BTW the hole I drilled was a number 60 drill 1mm just slightly larger than the nylon cord I used, LPG is heavier than air & the bottom of the gas locker has a mesh covered drop out hole of about 1.5" x 4".



Hi Mate
Don't wanna open an old argument but I believe that Maingate is correct on this point, if you have drilled a hole in your gas locker you may have negated your insurance no matter how small the hole. Not 100% but I also believe that there are legalalities about interior gas storage and it being sealed other than a drain at the bottom. 

Yes gas will drain out though the gas drain hole in the bottom but in a fire or explosive situation the heat and gas will jet out through any extra holes drilled small or otherwise and if in the top will jet into your habitation area. 

Even if it was a pipe failure I can imagine that the drain holes at the bottom may not be able to evacuate the gas quick enough and gas would escape into the hab area.

With my refilable I have a top gauge which you can't easily see, I glued a 45 degree angle onto the top of the locker and then stuck a plastic mirror onto this, I can now just open the door and see the gauge


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## lebesset (Apr 10, 2010)

it's funny how you read tales of doom and gloom from  people who have never done something 
I have decanted butane many times in africa , [propane is neither available nor necessary so I can't say ], certainly not as dangerous as taking a can of petrol and pouring it into your tank

but in spain , for more than 30 years ,taxi's legally ran on propane by putting a standard bottle on it's side in the boot and connecting it to the vapouriser under the bonnet ; I talked to an installer in barcelona years ago [ catalan speaker ] who told me that there was never an accident recorded during that time 

now you will read in these forums [ or should it be fora ? ]all sorts of things 

don't fill your own bottles , dangerous might be filled above 80% [ calor fill up to 87% they say ] ...agreed , for anyone who doesn't know their 2 times table 

must not  let the gas touch the valve , damages it  ......every gas bottle filling station fills through the valve

etc 

all gas equipment is designed by law to be have a defined life [ years ] when contacted by lp gasses ..provide you use the correct material and ensure bottles are connected in a leak proof manner you can do this ..the bottom bottle will part fill quickly ...thereafter it wil be painfully slow to drip through 

but with bottles now so easily and cheaply available around europe it escapes me why you would want to do this ....uk gas is hugely expensive


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## biggirafe (Apr 10, 2010)

lebesset said:


> don't fill your own bottles , dangerous might be filled above 80% [ calor fill up to 87% they say ] ...agreed , *for anyone who doesn't know their 2 times *table



Like you when I was in the forces we did all sorts of things out of nessesity and we got away with it, but only a fool would do these things if he had another safer choice, we have choices now, refillable systems that are cheap and easy to fit. 

No one minds the educated sensible people who can fill their own bottles safley and correctly but when the tool can be bought by anyone on ebay without restrictions or training then I don't want to be parked by a numpty who has bought a refill valve from ebay and has no idea of how to fill a bottle corretly and safley.

I would certalinly not be happy to find out my neighbour was decanting lpg from large tanks into small ones, in fact I would report him for it.

Its not happened yet but it will if enough people buy the tools eventually someone will be killed. Sadly until such a time it will not be outlawed lets just hope they only kill themselves and not others or children.

Incoming


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## Hussar (Apr 10, 2010)

We decant part cylinders of propane and butane in the military. Laying the cylinders horizontal is not generally a problem. Gravity will not have much effect. What you need is a pneumetic pump (intrinsically safe). Using a pump allows you to overcome the equalisation of pressure barrier, as the fuller of the two cylinders *WILL* always flow into the emptier thus equalising.


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## Annsman (Apr 10, 2010)

Having been to a few fires where a LPG cylinder has exploded and had two colleages quite badly burned from the resultant fire ball from a 12KG cylinder popping, could anyone considering doing this suicidal act please publish their location so then I can stay well away.

The cost of refilling cylinders with the correct equipment is cheap enough to do without risking yourself, anyone in your van or within a 200 metre radius.  You really are dicing with death here people.  You will only make one mistake!


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## Belgian (Apr 10, 2010)

Could all self-fillers please have their necrology and testament fillded in, so we could attend the funeral in a decent way


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## lebesset (Apr 10, 2010)

so you have been to a number of fires where cylinders exploded 
what has tthat got to do with the subject at hand , refilling cylinders ?

so there is a fire , and there are gas cylinders , and they explode 

so?

I have seen petrol tanks explode on a car set on fire ...better not to put petrol in the tank therefore ?


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## John H (Apr 11, 2010)

lebesset said:


> it's funny how you read tales of doom and gloom from  people who have never done something



Let me see, now.......I've never stuck a six inch nail in my head, never jumped out of a plane without a parachute, never stuck my hand in a fire, never swallowed bleach and never shot myself in the foot. By my reckoning, lebesset you have just done one of those things. Happy travels but if you are going to muck around with gas cylinders make sure I'm not near at the time or you might experience one of the others as well!!!!!


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## lebesset (Apr 11, 2010)

there's the difference 
you reckon
I know ...25 years experience


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## Annsman (Apr 11, 2010)

lebesset said:


> so you have been to a number of fires where cylinders exploded
> what has tthat got to do with the subject at hand , refilling cylinders ?
> 
> so there is a fire , and there are gas cylinders , and they explode
> ...



Yet in 32 years as a firefighter I've never seen a petrol tank on a car explode!  Apart from on the telly.  I've been to loads of car fires, most of them deliberately ignited.  I've seen petrol tanks on fire through the filler cap using a burning rag stuffed in it, from a hole put in it and the petrol trail ignited, I've seen the petrol vapour cloud ignite around a leaking petrol tank, but never seen one actually explode!  But I have seen LPG cylinders explode and when they do there isn't much left around it.  Neither do they need to be subjected to heat.  The chemical reaction of some LPG gases, including Propane and Butane, when a cylinder is dropped from only a small height can be enough to set off a reaction inside the cylinder and cause it to explode.  

As I say it's a mistake you'll only make once and I'm just trying to dissuade someone from doing something incredibly stupid and unnesessary just to save a few quid now and again, so I do think it has something to do with the topic, and from the number of posts agreeing with my take on it, so do other people.  But hey ho, life's too short to argue


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## lebesset (Apr 11, 2010)

well .
, last word from me 
I ran lpg prowered vehicles for more than 20 years 
the method used to fill gas bottles is identical with that used to fill any other lpg tank , except it is a little safer because it doesn't reply on a device to stop it overfilling ...and I had 3 failures of that device during my lpg days


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## biggirafe (Apr 12, 2010)

Steve928 said:


> Just out of interest, to whom and for what?



Well I don't know if 'decanting' is illegal in itself without a licence but I'm confident that evironmental health would certainly take a dim view of someone carrying out anything that could be a danger to other members of the public and their neighbours around them. 

No one who wasn't aleady and advocate has been convinced in this thread that its a safe practice and we would be the first to save a few quid if it was so I can't see a local goventment eo accepting its a safe thing to do


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## derekfaeberwick (Apr 24, 2010)

Just filled up my 13 kg bottle again, total ripoff , £16 50 odd.


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## vwalan (Apr 25, 2010)

hi, just got back from winter trip filled about 7or 8 bottles in spain and portugal at the pumps. cheaper in spain to exchange spanish bottle 11euro. some dont want spanish bottle so fill their englishbottle . been filling bottles for over 30 years,even have a hand operated lpg pump for when in distant countries. if gas can be smelt while filling then its being done wrong .the idea is to put gas into the other bottle not let it into the air. did get asked to fill several bottles with a slightly different size to the calor clip on. seems its getting a common size in france .if in doubt dont do it. with out the pump its hard to get the last few litres out so use it in the van then hand the empty back and get your deposit back if in other counties. there should be no more gas escapeing than chaging a bottle ,do it with care and its no more dangerous than filling a car with petrol. cheers alan,


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## Deleted member 3802 (Apr 26, 2010)

has anybody bought an adaptor off ebay for filling the propane bottles ? and want to sell it  or have contact details for supplier as they are no longer on ebay 
thanx

p.s. pm me please


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## n8rbos (Apr 26, 2010)

this all reminds me of when i used to install domestic gas (i'm a certified plumber/htg eng. allegedly!!!!) i did the gas w/o having papers as is req'd to have now! for all different installations eg.. just coz someone qual'd to install /service fire not so for a boiler and so on.anyway as i say i had no papers, job done as taught to me, quals come in, many thousands to qualify and keep updated!! latest figures 7000 illegal fitters in scotland alone!don't mean they dangerous just not got bits of paper.i knew/know fitters who i would'nt trust on my gas!and they qualified! i/you can still go to b&q to get gas bits to do our own work!many do w/o probs. point i'm trying to make is if you respect what you messin' with illegal or not then should have no probs!! experience over paper quals anyday

me tho' i'm happy exchanging bottles


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## lebesset (Apr 26, 2010)

if it is so dangerous to fill bottles without a 80% valve , how come people like calor are allowed to do it? they use a system fall less accurate than a lpg pump , and don't even screw on the fittings , just a push fit


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## biggirafe (Apr 26, 2010)

lebesset said:


> if it is so dangerous to fill bottles without a 80% valve , how come people like calor are allowed to do it? they use a system fall less accurate than a lpg pump , and don't even screw on the fittings , just a push fit



They weigh the bottles and then fill em, a very accurate system.

The pump in the petrol station will continue to fill the bottle until its full, I guess thats pretty accurate 'Its 100% full'


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## Deleted member 207 (Apr 26, 2010)

Just a quick question.

Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?

Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

Roger said:


> Just a quick question.
> 
> Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?
> 
> Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.



No they don't, The forcourt pump will pump until the pressure in the cylinder reaches the max set by the pump, Not accurate at all, temperature and the setup of the pump all make a difference so its possible for the bottle to end up completley or very near to full.

The usual practice by those filling these bottles is to completley empty the bottle and measure in by volume the correct amount for the size of bottle.

Which is fine for those with a brain  Sadly the gadget that was available on ebay could be bought by those devoid of a brain , The twat that overtook me on the motorway towing a caravan in the outside lane at 90mph has probably got one


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## lebesset (Apr 27, 2010)

the real danger in european temperatures is that if you overfill you might get some liquid propane up the pipe to your appliances ; a decided no no  ; I know it isn't likely but it could in theory happen 
out of interest I once filled a bottle until the pump wouldn't put any more in [ I hasten to say I didn't use it on the motorhome ] ; pump gauge showed it gave 10 bar pressure [ test pressure on bottles is 30 bar ] 

simple arithmetic showed it to have filled to 86 % ; calor say they fill their bottles to between 80 and 87 % 

has anyone ever accurately weighed a full gas bottle , then weighed it again when empty to see how much gas they ACTUALLY had purchased ...maybe it is my nasty suspicious mind but it sometimes seems to me that you don't always get what you pay for !


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

lebesset said:


> the real danger in european temperatures is that if you overfill you might get some liquid propane up the pipe to your appliances ; a decided no no  ; I know it isn't likely but it could in theory happen
> out of interest I once filled a bottle until the pump wouldn't put any more in [ I hasten to say I didn't use it on the motorhome ] ; pump gauge showed it gave 10 bar pressure [ test pressure on bottles is 30 bar ]
> 
> simple arithmetic showed it to have filled to 86 % ; calor say they fill their bottles to between 80 and 87 %
> ...



I expect your suspicions are well founded  

We were out recently with the local DA of the C&CC, I was surprised by the number of caravans with Gaslow and similar refillable bottles. I had not expected that as I would think they would need to put the bottles in the car to be able to fill them unless they know of a garage where they can get the van in and out the pump. 

But when chatting with one guy they have the same discussions as us and he says that the price of gas and ease of filling in europe makes it a no brainer even if it is a little more hastle for them. Nice to know the same discussions go on elsewhere.


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## Deleted member 3802 (Apr 27, 2010)

not going to take part in the argument but have filled my bottles for a long time i have three 6KG bottles as one comes empty i turn it on and leave it upside down,we use lpg on the house so when i go to pickup the 47kg bottles the *guy* fills my 6kg /12 lts @52p a litre £6ish,


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## maingate (Apr 27, 2010)

As Arthur has pointed out, it is cheaper to get LPG for heating purposes because the VAT rate is a lot lower than for use in engines on the road.


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## Deleted member 207 (Apr 27, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> No they don't,



When the bottles reach their 10 year hydrostatic test how would they void the air/gas in the tank?


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## jogguk (Apr 27, 2010)

Roger said:


> Just a quick question.
> 
> Do the UK bottles have a bleed screw on the valve?
> 
> Bottles in Australia and elsewhere I've seen have a bleed valve which is connected to a little tube that goes down inside the bottle to the 80% full mark. When filling the bottle and opening the bleed valve you get liquid coming out when you hit 80%, close both valves and hey presto an 80% filled bottle. Just the problem of escaping LPG on a servo forecourt with copious amounts of ignition sources.



Most American RV's with fixed LPG underfloor tanks have this bleed valve, I believe it is called a "ullage valve" (sp?).  Owners do not seem to have any problems with this simple overfill indicator. However, it relies on you or a helper being able to "see the bleed valve" while having your finger on the pump start button.

--John


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## Geoff.W (Apr 27, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> The usual practice by those filling these bottles is to completley empty the bottle and measure in by volume the correct amount for the size of bottle.



And therein lies the problem!

All proffesionally filled cylinders are filled by weight not volume, a standard propane cylinder is filled and sold with 13Kg of propane not 26Ltrs.

The problem with "flow" type meters is that they can and do go wrong, I can recall at least 2 occassions when I strongly suspected that I received a great deal more gas than the meter registered (or I paid for), on 1 occassion I would think I was charged for less than half of what I actually received.

With a 80% cut off valve this is not a problem and my gain, WITHOUT 

To also correct another point that has been made in this thread, provided that the cylinder contains some liquid the pressure inside the cylinder will remain constant and will only change with temprature. ie. pressure at 20% liquid content will be the same as pressure at 80% liquid content.

(Note:- Unless evacuated the cylinder is always full it is only the liquid to gas ratio that alters) 

Anyone who claims that any sort of pressure limiter makes filling safe is quite simply lying.


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## Geoff.W (Apr 27, 2010)

Roger said:


> When the bottles reach their 10 year hydrostatic test how would they void the air/gas in the tank?



 Think relative density.


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

Geoff.W said:


> A
> To also correct another point that has been made in this thread, provided that the cylinder contains some liquid the pressure inside the cylinder will remain constant and will only change with temprature. ie. pressure at 20% liquid content will be the same as pressure at 80% liquid content.



Hi Geoff
Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill 

Personally the thought of liquid propane squirting out of the cooker and expanding to its natuaral state was enough to make me go out and spend the £100 on a proper refillable cylinder.


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## Deleted member 3802 (Apr 27, 2010)

maingate said:


> As Arthur has pointed out, it is cheaper to get LPG for heating purposes because the VAT rate is a lot lower than for use in engines on the road.


52p is the pump price, i pay £34 for a 47kg bottle =94lts=36p a lt


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## Geoff.W (Apr 27, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> Hi Geoff
> Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill



Hi Mark.

Inside the cylinder there is a float valve (like the ball cock in a toilet cistern), when this reaches the level equal to 80% fill it shuts of the inlet, causing an increase in pressure in the fill pipe which triggers the pump switch.


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## AndyC (Apr 27, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> Hi Geoff
> Ah interesting, so out of curiosity how does the forcourt pump know when to turn off? And given the oportunity would it fill the bottle to the brim? I remember reading somewhere in one of these threads that there was a cut off on the pump to prevent overfill


It cuts off when the cylinder pressure reaches the pump cut off pressure. If the pump is running fairly fast it may cut off while there is still a bit of LPG in the gaseous state, inside the cylinder, that hasn't 'condensed' to liquid.


> Personally the thought of liquid propane squirting out of the cooker and expanding to its natuaral state was enough to make me go out and spend the £100 on a proper refillable cylinder.


In my 'day job' I once saw a boat that had a couple of liquid offtake propane cylinders fitted to the gas supply. The owner had 'got them cheap', they were designed for fitting to a forklift. The liquid propane was getting into the regulator and evaporating there causing it to ice up, and the flames on the cooker were a foot high...

He'd complained that the gas supply seemed 'a bit erratic'  

AndyC


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## Kontiki (Apr 27, 2010)

I remember in the late 80's when we live in California we had a VW camper that had a small refillable tank. When we had it refilled the pump attendant would connect it up with a couple of spanners then open the bleed valve, when liquid came out of the bleed valve he would stop filling. During this time we would have to stand a safe distance away. Never knew anything about 80% filling then but obviously whoever fitted the tank knew about it.
We also had a Chevvy Malibu that run on LPG & petrol (absolutely useless couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding) again with that we had to all get out of the car & stand some distance away while the attendant would fill it up  how times have changed.


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## lebesset (Apr 27, 2010)

marknnicole 

have you ever actually been inside a bottle filling station , may I ask where ? accurate system ? what a joke ; I have been in more than one country and watched the operatives at work ...near enough is good enough , natural enough if you had to stand there squirting gas into bottles all day 
btw , I never saw a bottle tested ! off the truck and onto the line 

if you don't believe me try the ...weigh full bottles  then weigh when empty , you won't get exactly the same amount twice 

on the other hand the lpg pumps are precise , they are regularly tested by law , just like petrol pumps ; the electric pumps are only capable of pumping at a maximum pressure of 10 bar , so can only pressurise your bottle to that pressure ..naturally ,it pushes back ; no way can you fill a bottle 100% ; with a test pressure of 30bar that is hardly dangerous ! 

personally having had , as I stated once before ,  three  80% cut off floats fail , I stick to the safe method of just filling with the design quantity 

if mr boyle read some of these posts he would turn in his grave !


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 27, 2010)

well been loking through this and other posts of similer ilks. it is posible to decant from one bottle to the other and also to refill an empty bottle but it is also possible to blow yourself to kingdom come we fulltime and use gas for heating and cooking the only way realy it is expensive but it is safe dont mess and try to save a few quid live and enjoy life


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

Geoff.W said:


> Hi Mark.
> 
> Inside the cylinder there is a float valve (like the ball cock in a toilet cistern), when this reaches the level equal to 80% fill it shuts of the inlet, causing an increase in pressure in the fill pipe which triggers the pump switch.



Ah yes this is with a refillable bottle such as Gaslow which i have, but how do they work with a non refillable bottle using the adapter you can buy on ebay


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

lebesset said:


> marknnicole
> 
> have you ever actually been inside a bottle filling station , may I ask where ? accurate system ? what a joke ; I have been in more than one country and watched the operatives at work ...near enough is good enough , natural enough if you had to stand there squirting gas into bottles all day
> btw , I never saw a bottle tested ! off the truck and onto the line
> ...



hi lebesset 

Yes I have in Southampton there is a big plant, In this country its very accurate when done correctly, The operator enters the full weight of the bottle from the tag around the neck and the machine fills until it hits that weight. I'm sure they have a tolerance that it has to be between so no its never going to be spot on and bottles weigh different amounts so no 2 can be the same, Not really interested in what they do in other countries tbh there are plenty of countries around the world where you can kill yourself thru bad practice thankfully we know better, or I thought we did 

IMHO relying on people to calculate themselves how much to put in is a bit hit and miss, as said before I'm sure many such as yourself are safe doing this but not everyone is capable or safe and thats why it should not be allowed.

As far as I can tell and until someone tells me different there is nothing to stop a forecourt pump filling a normal the bottle to the top or near enough so the potential is for liquid propane to come out when you use the bottle. 

You say you've had 3 x 80% valves fail, thats terrible, what make of cylinder is that as I'm sure we should all steer clear of them?


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## lebesset (Apr 27, 2010)

for 25 years I ran on lpg so have pumped a lot of gas in my time , sometimes 60Kg/day on long trips
the tanks on lpg vehicles use 80 % valves , I had two failures on landi -hartog equipment , used as OE by volvo , the other was of italian and have forgotten the name 

having been in the weighing machine business maybe you can tell me the specification of the equipment you saw so that I can judge it's accuracy, it will certainly be less than an lpg pump I can assure you

you say you think that it is a bit hit and miss to rely on people calculating how much to put in ...personally I think people can manage their 2 x table quite easily 

and as calor state on their website they fill up to 87% , there must be a good margin for error , don't you think ? ;  I have , as previously stated , filled a bottle with lpg as far as the pump would let me , and I didn't manage to get liquid out , no doubt calor et al have higher pressure pumps than are permitted in filling stations ; but , again as previously stated , I stick to the rated capacity as marked on the bottle  , belt and braces is my motto 

let me be quite clear , I don't commend to anyone that they fill their normal bottles ; what I object to is them being told it is dangerous , because it is no more dangerous than driving down the road ! less so in fact ! 
you might as well say that being in bed is dangerous because more people die there than anywhere else


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## biggirafe (Apr 27, 2010)

lebesset said:


> for 25 years I ran on lpg so have pumped a lot of gas in my time , sometimes 60Kg/day on long trips
> the tanks on lpg vehicles use 80 % valves , I had two failures on landi -hartog equipment , used as OE by volvo , the other was of italian and have forgotten the name
> 
> having been in the weighing machine business maybe you can tell me the specification of the equipment you saw so that I can judge it's accuracy, it will certainly be less than an lpg pump I can assure you
> ...



Tonight I saw a piece of film of a man driving down the motorway the wrong way, Now tell me again how safe driving is when carried out by morons, likewise letting morons fill gas bottles at petrol stations using bottles without saftey valves is dangerous, There are people for whom the 2x table is beyond them or they are just reckless and will try to get a bit more in. Clearly I don't include you in this group as you know what you are doing  but because you know what you are doing does not make it any less dangerous a practice 

Your entitled to your opinion my friend and I'm entitled to mine, You  seem to have taken to heart that someone would question you so I'm going  to leave it there, I was only questioning what I considered to be a  dangerous practice, thats filling bottles designed to be filled  profesionally using a gadget purchased on ebay and I will continue to do  so as it is IMHO and the opinion of many others its a dangerous practice that should not be encouraged.


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## jogguk (Apr 27, 2010)

Geoff.W said:


> Hi Mark.
> 
> Inside the cylinder there is a float valve (like the ball cock in a toilet cistern), when this reaches the level equal to 80% fill it shuts of the inlet, causing an increase in pressure in the fill pipe which triggers the pump switch.




Here are two pics one of the float valve and the other a cut away MTH underfloor propane tank. Note the seperate float for the gauge level. 

They say a picture is worth a thousand words Hope it helps those who need to know

--John


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## biggirafe (Apr 28, 2010)

jogguk said:


> Here are two pics one of the float valve and the other a cut away MTH underfloor propane tank. Note the seperate float for the gauge level.
> 
> They say a picture is worth a thousand words Hope it helps those who need to know
> 
> --John



Thanks for that, just like a toilet cistern, but if you use a bottle without a cut off valve how does a forecout pump known when to turn off?


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 30, 2010)

cipro said:


> Would it not be cheaper and easer to use gasflo system because you are
> one of the full timers on this site, and I am sure this subject has been
> brought before



at this moment the cost is just out of reach for a full system ,but i will try and get it fitted later .it will save money in the longrun


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## biggirafe (Apr 30, 2010)

mandrake said:


> at this moment the cost is just out of reach for a full system ,but i will try and get it fitted later .it will save money in the longrun



Hi Mandrake
I think you already have this but I feel its worth reminding everyone that Gaslow are not the only supplier of bottles, I bought mine from here and saved at least 1/3 price incl delivery, ignore the trade only they sell to anyone now 

FES Autogas - LPG - Autogas Conversions- Trade only  supplier
Their catalogue is here http://www.fesautogas.co.uk/catstp2009.pdf
.
.
.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 30, 2010)

thanks for the info will get a gas low or simmiler fitted later in the year but at the moment just renued my insurance  tax is due end of may  and then mot due june : so got my handsfull financialy . oh and with buying bits and bobs for the first grandson when he finaly realises there is a bigger world out there than the womb due today but no sighn yet gaslow can wait  he he he


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## coroner (May 2, 2010)

Just filled 2  6 kg cylinders at a shell roadside station no problem but just to be safe only put in 10 ltrs the adaptor has paid for itself on the first 2 refills as long as you are certin that bottles are empty I see no problem with this system.


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## coolasluck (May 2, 2010)

Yep ,nothing quite like a fixed tank,great for cost and great for convenience,chatting to the fellow who filled up my tank for the first time a month ago he told me that the pump stops filling when pressure is equalised.
Either way always wear gloves when filling up as the gas if it ends up on your hands will take off a large chunk of skin.So beware


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## Deleted member 967 (May 2, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> Yep ,nothing quite like a fixed tank,great for cost and great for convenience,chatting to the fellow who filled up my tank for the first time a month ago he told me that the pump stops filling when pressure is equalised.
> Either way always wear gloves when filling up as the gas if it ends up on your hands will take off a large chunk of skin.So beware



The gas passing through the adaptor cools it down to below freezing.  If you touch this straight after you take the filler off your fingers can stick to it.  I find If I put the filler back in the holder it has warmed up enough to unscrew it.  Just to avoid problems I use a glove.


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## maingate (May 2, 2010)

If you have ever tried to fill up a refillable cigarette lighter, you can see that it only gets to about 1/3 full before the pressure is equalised.

This makes me a bit puzzled as to how a bottle can be filled 100%


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## AndyC (May 3, 2010)

maingate said:


> If you have ever tried to fill up a refillable cigarette lighter, you can see that it only gets to about 1/3 full before the pressure is equalised.
> 
> This makes me a bit puzzled as to how a bottle can be filled 100%


My gas lighter fills to virtually 100% as far as I can see.

AndyC


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## lebesset (May 3, 2010)

either you don't see very well andy , or you are the only person in the world to whom boyle's law doesn't apply


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## AndyC (May 3, 2010)

lebesset said:


> either you don't see very well andy , or you are the only person in the world to whom Boyle's law doesn't apply


How does Boyle's Law apply in this case?

AndyC


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## Deleted member 2636 (May 3, 2010)

Gaslow is not the only refillable system around. There is also Alugas from Germany

Dave Newall does them http://http://www.davenewell.co.uk/ Loof for refillable gas systems on the link bar


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## winchman (Jun 4, 2010)

Now I havent read all the thread, but if you are in the area I can take you to meet a really nice chap who was in a very serious accident involving refilling gas bottles, in short even if it saves £1000 a time just dont do it.
On another note I binned the small 907 cylinders and fitted the larger propane as its half the price.


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## lebesset (Jun 4, 2010)

winchman , what on earth did this guy do ?

tens of millions of bottles are filled world wide every day , with no problems 

I cannot imagine how he had an accident 

even if you fill the bottles as full as you can it is well within it's design limits


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## n8rbos (Jun 4, 2010)

lebesset said:


> winchman , what on earth did this guy do ?
> 
> tens of millions of bottles are filled world wide every day , with no problems
> 
> ...



les accidents DO happen regardless how many times the said operation is carried out!!!! i have a mate who has been a tree surgeon for many a year and won umpteen competions, one slip up cost him his a nice scar across his face!! could have been much worse, i guess complacency could also play a part in accidents of any kind!!!


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## defitzi (Jun 4, 2010)

Probably...back in the days before liberation or whatevert I used to see (from as far a distance is possible) the wild things done with gas cylinders in EASTERN EUROPE.
Never actually heard any bangs, tho'


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## lebesset (Jun 4, 2010)

statistically more people die in bed than anywhere else 
on that basis you should never go to bed 

frankly , filling a gas bottle is much safer than driving down the road , but everybody seems to do that without a thought

wonder how many people have got killed at calor gas this year ...they don't even fill the bottles using a secure connection , much too slow!


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## vwalan (Jun 4, 2010)

never seen any of the gas filling stations i,v visited ever use more than a push on connector .goes like auto mation. open valve zap turn off valve remove connection .there is a place near me that fill co2 bottles for pubs they do screw on a connector .and co2 dont burn.
yes accidents happen .their dad should have worn a condom. ha ha . 
mine did as a hat. ha ha , 
cheers alan.


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## winchman (Jun 5, 2010)

lebesset said:


> winchman , what on earth did this guy do ?
> 
> tens of millions of bottles are filled world wide every day , with no problems
> 
> ...



He was at work refilling bottles as he normally did when it all went bang, my point is even the professionals get caught out, I just dont feel its worth the risk.


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## lebesset (Jun 6, 2010)

as previously mentioned , in a bottle filling station they don't use a secure method , just give it a quick squirt , far more dangerous but safe enough to be the approved method 

a member off my staff was an ex-army major who trained soldiers in the use of explosives ; he used to say , to begin with , you are very , very careful ; after that you become confident ; if you survive that you become very , very careful again

sounds like your friend was confident 

but I notice you are telling us it is dangerous in a bottle filling station , not someone filling a bottle with a secure connection ; in 30 years of using lpg in 30+ countries I have never heard of anyone having an accident doing that !

tell me something in life that does not have an element of danger , don't you do far more dangerous things like driving around on public roads?


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## ajs (Jun 6, 2010)

lebesset said:


> as previously mentioned , in a bottle filling station they don't use a secure method , just give it a quick squirt , far more dangerous but safe enough to be the approved method
> 
> a member off my staff was an ex-army major who trained soldiers in the use of explosives ; he used to say , to begin with , you are very , very careful ; after that you become confident ; if you survive that you become very , very careful again
> 
> ...



 hurray for some common sense..at last 

 this is possibly the 5 or 6th thread i've seen on this forum alone about this subject...

it never ceases to amaze me how much sheermollix can be talked about 1 subject...

my client fills 5000 cylinders/bottles a day and has been doing for 25 years
...not a single issue...

 **** you lot grow up... it is no more dangerous than crossing the piggin road ... even i can do it and i don't do spanners 

 regards
aj


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## fugglestick (Jun 6, 2010)

Jesus....where do these el stupedoes come from...I know where they go, usually the afterlife, in various bits.. Could t imagine a more stupid occupation. Spose hes the same guy who chucks acetylene cylinders about.....


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## hairydog (Aug 9, 2010)

When I was at school, I used to work weekends at a boatyard, readying boats for hire. They always had to go out with full gas cylinders, so these had to be refilled. And we had a team doing this all day, three days a week for years. Never a problem. So all the "you must be mad" posters seem to be very wrong.

As said, it is important to weigh the cylinder, taking off the weight of the empty cylinder. You should fill them to about 80% full - never past 90%. LPG expands a lot with temperature rise and you don't want to run out of space in there! But if you fill them to the rated capacity, all will be well.

Provided you leave that space, and have the correct adapter pipe, filling one cylinder from another is perfectly safe. But it is not a job to bodge!


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## Jimmy Pickup (Feb 18, 2011)

*The effective gas solution in Spain*

We've just arrived in Spain, having installed one Gaslow and one Calor 13kg bottles prior to the trip; we also bought several adaptors.  Now we are in Spain, we find refilling a rare possibility (not noticed one gas pump down to Benidorm) and have purchased one 13kg bottle and regulator (@ €8 & €3 resp), secondhand from a market and swapped for a full bottle @ €14 - this is butane.  We are connected through the barby outlet.
France is much better for gas stations but we went through like a dose of salts due to the fact we were frozen solid whilst there.
So, I think we'll stick with what we have, it seems to work OK.

Blue Skies


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## Deleted member 967 (Feb 19, 2011)

Jimmy Pickup said:


> We've just arrived in Spain, having installed one Gaslow and one Calor 13kg bottles prior to the trip; we also bought several adaptors.  Now we are in Spain, we find refilling a rare possibility (not noticed one gas pump down to Benidorm) and have purchased one 13kg bottle and regulator (@ €8 & €3 resp), secondhand from a market and swapped for a full bottle @ €14 - this is butane.  We are connected through the barby outlet.
> France is much better for gas stations but we went through like a dose of salts due to the fact we were frozen solid whilst there.
> So, I think we'll stick with what we have, it seems to work OK.
> 
> Blue Skies


 
Hi Jimmy Pickup

Benidorm is in one of the no Autogas areas.

Your nearest stations are at Alicanti (Repsol Depot uses both adaptors Uk type and the new Euro adaptor.    GPS: 38.3024 -0.5283  Access easy for RV
Avenida de Elche 170
Alicante
Tel: 965 209 950
08.00-21.00 Everyday 

or E S Cred Rabasa Garage  38.376111°  -0.509167°  Open 24 hours) 

The other is Valencia Repsol GPS: 39.4599 -0.4099 
Calle de Gremis 
Poligono Vara de Quart 
Valencia 
Tel: 963 792 200 
24 Hours Everyday, 

I was in the same position as you and also used the barbecue point.  I am paying 13 euro for a 12.5Kg (22 litre) Cepsa bottle refill  Autogas at Alicanti was 0.688 euro per litre, the bottle works out cheaper.

John


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## runnach (Feb 24, 2011)

Well my thoughts on the subject 

I have never really understood why we use butane over propane given propanes versatility. My conclusion is that both gases are a product of refining therefore the oil:gas companies create a market.

In terms of filling bottles, the only way to do it is by weight, there has been a few references to empty bottles being different weights but so far noone has offered an explanation.

In my experience dealing with french gas companies and at any given moment looking after in excess of 500 bottles of gas you get 'heavy ends' this is caused by two factors

1 bottles are returned with remnants of gas from customers

2 the distillation process of gas is essentially from oil and residue collects in the bottom of the bottles

You can tell a dirty bottle when your pigtail is tainted with a oily yellowish substance;

We occasionally get an overfilled bottle and the signs are quite easy to spot the flame floats on the hob or water heater;

 A few minutes burning off on a hob cures.

I personallly wouldnt decant from one bottle to another, 

Channa


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## Bernard Jones (Mar 18, 2011)

Hallii said:


> I do it using a proper connecting hose from a 13Kg Calor to a 907 GAZ, and have done it with others.
> 
> Use a proper connector and have a valve at each end. You cannot use a regulator as there will be a non return valve in it, use a simple connector.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the informative post.

The only thing I can add is that I agree £21 is pretty normal for a replacement 907 in the UK, but I get mine from Millets for £14.
(its about 12 Euros in Spain)


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## windyjools (Apr 12, 2011)

*Refilling gas bottles*

We spend a lot of time abroad, and have seen this done many times. The full bottle is suspended in the sun upside down, to keep the pressure up, the empty bottle to be filled is kept as cool as practical, in the shade and the right way up. The two are connected with a 'suitable' connection. The valve on the empty bottle is opened completely. The valve on the full one is opened very slowly to allow the liquified gas to pass from on to the other. I gather the difference in pressure and temperature fills the receiving bottle to about 3/4 full before the pressures are equalised.
I have seen this done many times in Spain and Morocco with no problems.......me personally, I would buy a local gas bottle, in Spain it will cost you 20 Euros, regulator about 8 euros, in Morocco itis even cheaper, you will get the deposit back when you leave the country.


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 12, 2011)

windyjools said:


> We spend a lot of time abroad, and have seen this done many times. The full bottle is suspended in the sun upside down, to keep the pressure up, the empty bottle to be filled is kept as cool as practical, in the shade and the right way up. The two are connected with a 'suitable' connection. The valve on the empty bottle is opened completely. The valve on the full one is opened very slowly to allow the liquified gas to pass from on to the other. I gather the difference in pressure and temperature fills the receiving bottle to about 3/4 full before the pressures are equalised.
> I have seen this done many times in Spain and Morocco with no problems.......me personally, I would buy a local gas bottle, in Spain it will cost you 20 Euros, regulator about 8 euros, in Morocco itis even cheaper, you will get the deposit back when you leave the country.



OK so where do you get the bottle to suspend over the empty.  Butane here in Spain is 14€ for a 12.5 kg bottle (CESPA).  Bottles available everywhere.


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## vwalan (Apr 12, 2011)

hi john. its about not having to drive around with lots of different bottles. empty one and hand it back. i have an lpg pump ,it allows me to totally empty a bottle. i carry a maroc and a spanish bottle mostly when on my winter trips. also have filling adaptors. maroc about 4.50pounds. spain last one was 13.10euro. if you know where you are going having the right bottle makes life much easier. never had a problem picking up a spanish bottle a garage just said ok here you are.ipayed for the gas only.


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## rickboy (Apr 12, 2011)

*Is this a record thread?*

Is this thread I started way back in snowy December 2009  a record for views and replies? 
Thanks to everyone for their views ,banter and experience and I am still here to write this despite adopting some new lpg techniques.
Hope everyone is enjoying the early summer ,use it to its full it may be all we get!!
Cheers Rickboy


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 12, 2011)

vwalan said:


> hi john. its about not having to drive around with lots of different bottles. empty one and hand it back. i have an lpg pump ,it allows me to totally empty a bottle. i carry a maroc and a spanish bottle mostly when on my winter trips. also have filling adaptors. maroc about 4.50pounds. spain last one was 13.10euro. if you know where you are going having the right bottle makes life much easier. never had a problem picking up a spanish bottle a garage just said ok here you are.ipayed for the gas only.


 
Hi Alan since December 2010, garages in this area have been totally refusing to supply without an empty.  The only way to get one legally is to have the whole vehicle checked out by a CESPA or REPSOL engineer.  He will issue a certificate that will get you up to two bottles without an empty. We have a REPSOL truck comes 3 times a week around the site and his response as soon as Joan started to ask and before she was finished was "No Posible".  I even tried a Caravan Dealer and got the same response "No Posible".  We were quoted 160€ to 200€ for the inspection on our Hymer S700's system.

We managed to get a couple of CESPA Aluminium empties from a junk shop in Cartegena.  He also had REPSOL steel.  Others have got them from Car Boot sales.

Once you have an empty there is no problem.  Price for March refill was 14.00€


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## vwalan (Apr 12, 2011)

yes in some places it can be abit difficult . was offered a bottle for 10 euro this year while changing a bottle with a cepsa truck. seems some are stricter than others.


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