# Travel to the EU after January 1st



## John H

CAB Spain (citizensadvice.org.es) This is not good news for anybody thinking of travelling here after January 1st. It has seemed likely for a while that travel would be banned under Corona Virus regulations but I have not seen it officially confirmed until  now. So if you want to spend winter in the sun, get here before New Year.


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## barryd

I have seen this banded about for a week or so now but its not made big news. The Guardian covered it. 









						Holidaymakers from Great Britain barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules
					

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on non-essential travel at end of Brexit transition




					www.theguardian.com
				




I believe its Europe wide, not just Spain but countries I think have the power to override it.

Doesnt sound like its going to be a short term thing either.  More staycations for 2021 then by the looks of it.

*At some point next year, there will be a discussion on the UK’s inclusion in Annex I (but the current epidemiological situation in the UK and the timing, with the approaching holiday season, mean that this discussion will be delayed)”.*


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## mfw

Personally i think if if you want to go for it do it - but if you are asking for advise your'e not sure and probably safer to stay put as it could turn problematic for some


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## kenspain

My son was saying that you might only be allowed to stay here for only 30 days they have been shown photos of what this pass looks like in his station and all of the Guardia will have them to show when you entered Spain. But this is still being sorted out


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## campervanannie

My brother and his wife were moving to Spain in January and because of the uncertainty he moved it forward so them and all their belongings went 2 weeks ago they have had a holiday home out there for years now it’s there home though they have not sold their house here it’s rented out long term until the Brexit dust settles then they will cut the Uk umbilical cord.


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## jagmanx

campervanannie said:


> My brother and his wife were moving to Spain in January and because of the uncertainty he moved it forward so them and all their belongings went 2 weeks ago they have had a holiday home out there for years now it’s there home though they have not sold their house here it’s rented out long term until the Brexit dust settles then they will cut the Uk umbilical cord.


Why sell the house ? obviously depends on income versus realising the capital...just something for them to ponder
As you say when the dust settles !


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## campervanannie

jagmanx said:


> Why sell the house ? obviously depends on income versus realising the capital...just something for them to ponder
> As you say when the dust settles !


Yes it,s not written in stone that they sell the house but they felt that it’s not a decision they can make at this moment in time if they manage financially they will probably keep the house for the foreseeable future as they are both in mid fifties and taken early retirement he has the time to weigh up his options.


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## witzend

kenspain said:


> My son was saying that you might only be allowed to stay here for only 30 days But this is still being sorted out


There,s also been said that anyone already there maybe deported  in the new year


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## John H

witzend said:


> There,s also been said that anyone already there maybe deported  in the new year



Ha bloody ha!


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## kenspain

That is one thing that was talked about at a meting my son went to the police deporting anyone that stays over the 30 days


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## John H

kenspain said:


> That is one thing that was talked about at a meting my son went to the police deporting anyone that stays over the 30 days



If they do introduce such a restriction then we'll put in an application for residencia - that'll keep them occupied until we are due to catch our ferry at the end of March


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## kenspain

John you better do that quick because ever thing is closing for Christmas till the new year


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## Derekoak

Events in the Uk the new virus strain which appears to spread more effectively  and the southeast including Kent going into the new tier 4 . Makes going abroad by way of Dover which is where we are booked porobably immoral and even illegal. The new virus may have mutated in London and 60% of new covid cases are  the new strain  in the tier 4 area, so it is very effective.
 No other Countries want it so they will not want us even if we only travelled  through the affected area. So we will probably postpone the ferry until this is over.  By the time we are due to go 28 th December   all south coast ports may be affected.


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## barryd

Derekoak said:


> Events in the Uk the new virus strain which appears to spread more effectively  and the southeast including Kent going into the new tier 4 . Makes going abroad by way of Dover which is where we are booked porobably immoral and even illegal. The new virus may have mutated in London and 60% of new covid cases are  the new strain  in the tier 4 area, so it is very effective.
> No other Countries want it so they will not want us even if we only travelled  through the affected area. So we will probably postpone the ferry until this is over.  By the time we are due to go 28 th December   all south coast ports may be affected.



A wise decision I think.  I cant remember what Johnsons exact words were but I think foreign travel was essential only now but you can be pretty sure if the UK soars above the rest of Europe again they wont be letting us in anyway (well according to the links above, that was the case after Jan 1 anyway).  I think we just have to stay at home, ride it out and wait for a vaccine.


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## korky

I think foreign travel rule is still advisory not mandatory, unless you are in Tier 4,then it is a no.
I decided long ago no travel until I'm jabbed.


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## Fazerloz

Derekoak said:


> Events in the Uk the new virus strain which appears to spread more effectively  and the southeast including Kent going into the new tier 4 . Makes going abroad by way of Dover which is where we are booked porobably immoral and even illegal. The new virus may have mutated in London and 60% of new covid cases are  the new strain  in the tier 4 area, so it is very effective.
> No other Countries want it so they will not want us even if we only travelled  through the affected area. So we will probably postpone the ferry until this is over.  By the time we are due to go 28 th December   all south coast ports may be affected.



From the Gov website.
*International travel to or from a tier 4 area*
If you are in Tier 4, you should not be travelling abroad unless it is permitted. In addition, you should consider the public health advice in the country you are visiting.

If you live outside a tier 4 area you may still transit into or through a tier 4 area to travel abroad if you need to, but you should carefully consider whether you need to do so. In addition, you should follow the public health advice in the country you’re visiting.

If you do need to travel overseas from a tier 4 area (and are legally permitted to do so, for example, because it is for work), even if you are returning to a place you've visited before, you should look at the rules in place at your destination and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (FCDO) travel advice.

UK residents currently abroad do not need to return home immediately. However, you should check with your airline or travel operator on arrangements for returning.


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## mfw

John H said:


> If they do introduce such a restriction then we'll put in an application for residencia - that'll keep them occupied until we are due to catch our ferry at the end of March


No worries what is worst they could do - probably only arrest you take you to airport and force you to fly back leaving van where it is until you can collect it again


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## John H

mfw said:


> No worries what is worst they could do - probably only arrest you take you to airport and force you to fly back leaving van where it is until you can collect it again



I love a positive attitude!


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## mfw

John H said:


> I love a positive attitude!


My view is if you can accept a worse case outcome at least you are prepared to a point and should get through to the other side without too much stress and i'm not knocking your choice to stay either


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## witzend

Updated list you can sleep easy tonight





						Driving abroad
					

Check if you need an international driving permit (IDP) to drive abroad on holiday and how to exchange your licence if you move abroad - including driving in the EU after Brexit.




					www.gov.uk


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## Derekoak

The Dutch have banned passenger flights from the UK for 10 days due to the new variant.  They may not be the last. 
Note 10 days takes us to December 30th?


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## Markd

Glad to read that the realisation of travel into europe after 1st Jan is becoming mainstream.


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## John H

John H said:


> CAB Spain (citizensadvice.org.es) This is not good news for anybody thinking of travelling here after January 1st. It has seemed likely for a while that travel would be banned under Corona Virus regulations but I have not seen it officially confirmed until  now. So if you want to spend winter in the sun, get here before New Year.



Well, things are definitely changing on a daily basis - my original post of yesterday is now irrelevant since most of the EU has decided to stop Brits entering now! Commiserations to anybody who was planning to join us out here in the sun and merry Xmas to all.


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## Markd

That is what they've been "saying" for several weeks now.
The 8 or so countries that are on the admissions list all had much much lower I faction rates before ours went up.
I have been recommending travel sooner rather than later if that was what you were thinking about for a good while now.


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## John H

Markd said:


> That is what they've been "saying" for several weeks now.
> The 8 or so countries that are on the admissions list all had much much lower I faction rates before ours went up.
> I have been recommending travel sooner rather than later if that was what you were thinking about for a good while now.



As long as we are in the Single Market (ie until Dec 31st) freedom of movement should have been secured but I guess they are now saying that they don't care about that anymore. Don't blame them


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## colinm

John H said:


> As long as we are in the Single Market (ie until Dec 31st) freedom of movement should have been secured but I guess they are now saying that they don't care about that anymore. Don't blame them


Freedom of movement can, and has been, suspended for various reasons, CV-19 is one of those reasons.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> Freedom of movement can, and has been, suspended for various reasons, CV-19 is one of those reasons.



True, but they always try to resist it as much as possible and the Spanish/French border has remained open throughout. Clearly they no longer see the need to try with the UK.


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## maingate

It should be remembered that some European countries have higher fatalities than the UK.









						Coronavirus in Europe: the latest counts, charts and maps
					

Tracking the COVID-19 outbreak, updated daily




					graphics.reuters.com


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## Pauljenny

Portugal is shutting up shop, from midnight tonight.
After only a few planes using Faro, lately, there's been a rush, this afternoon . We're 25 miles from the airport.
I bet they aren't getting cheap, " Come-on, "offers  today though.
I haven't used my flight tracker app, recently.
I'll probably uninstall it, now.l


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## Deleted member 56601

Pauljenny said:


> Portugal is shutting up shop, from midnight tonight.
> After only a few planes using Faro, lately, there's been a rush, this afternoon . We're 25 miles from the airport.
> I bet they aren't getting cheap, " Come-on, "offers  today though.
> I haven't used my flight tracker app, recently.
> I'll probably uninstall it, now.l


Will Ruth get through?


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## Pauljenny

If she's got residency and the necessary documents..
I do hope so.
I presume they are driving down.?
Maybe @REC will give us an update ?
Best of luck to them, anyway.


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## mfw

Silly question 
Considering gov advise about not travelling and people just going - when it comes time to return how confident are you that countries will open borders for you if this gets a lot worse which in all likelihood probably will do

And needing an MOT would be even more problems

No-one knows so i am just curious


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## mariesnowgoose

mfw said:


> Silly question
> Considering gov advise about not travelling and people just going - when it comes time to return how confident are you that countries will open borders for you if this gets a lot worse which in all likelihood probably will do
> 
> And needing an MOT would be even more problems
> 
> No-one knows so i am just curious



I think it's going to be a case of wait and see what transpires.

There are so many uncertainties on every front right now.
Personally, if I was in Ruth's position I'd be making tracks to my Portugues place of residence too - in fact I would have already been there ages ago, but I understand Ruth has had family stuff to sort out here.

I think it takes a certain type of risk-taker to head off to Europe (or anywhere else abroad for that matter) just now with everything that's happening, but some people are fine with that and I say go for it if that's what you want to do. Yo just have to be prepared to deal with how you get back into the country if or when the time comes.

@Pauljenny, @REC and @kenspain etc. have places to live in Europe (Spain and Portugal in this instance) and residential status.
Some other members (who don't post on the forum) may also have properties on the continent and be in the same boat.

I am very envious! A choice between a cold and miserable time in locked down Britain and the warm climes of France or southern Europe?
100% no brainer!


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## John H

mfw said:


> Silly question
> Considering gov advise about not travelling and people just going - when it comes time to return how confident are you that countries will open borders for you if this gets a lot worse which in all likelihood probably will do
> 
> And needing an MOT would be even more problems
> 
> No-one knows so i am just curious



Nothing is certain but all regulations in all countries during this pandemic have allowed people to return to their main residence, so getting home shouldn't be a problem - unless the ferries stop running, of course!  

PS our motorhome was new this year, so the crisis should be over by the time we need to worry about an MoT!


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## colinm

If they have not already left UK they won't be allowed out, even EU citizens are not allowed out at moment. Hopefully something will be sorted today, esp. as newCV-19 seems to be widespread across the world.

It appears France is not even allowing it's own citizens to cross the channel.


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## REC

Portugal and Spain are allowing flights and ferries with -ve covid test. Portugal only their own residents. Hopefully, the tunnel situation will be resolved soon. I fear it is the lorry drivers who cross regularly who are a major vector, having personally seen the lack of distancing and no enforcement of covid rules in the folkestone service area.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> If they have not already left UK they won't be allowed out, even EU citizens are not allowed out at moment. Hopefully something will be sorted today, esp. as newCV-19 seems to be widespread across the world.
> 
> It appears France is not even allowing it's own citizens to cross the channel.



The question was about UK citizens already abroad returning home.

Can you provide a link for your second statement? I have not heard anything to support it and the latest advice on the french Government website is that foreign nationals are allowed to return.  Coronavirus - Advice for Foreign Nationals in France - Ministry for Europe and Foreign Affairs (diplomatie.gouv.fr)


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## mfw

John H said:


> Can you provide a link for your second statement?


Think that actually means ferry ports and tunnel shut at moment just some freight getting through


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## kenspain

My friend that is staying on our land in Portugal has been advice by the Police to stay where he is and not to try and travel and they are happy with that .


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## John H

mfw said:


> Think that actually means ferry ports and tunnel shut at moment just some freight getting through



Some friends of ours were in Spain last spring/summer and had five ferries home cancelled. They eventually contacted the British Consulate and were transported back home as freight on the same ferry that they would have travelled as passengers! I have never heard of any country refusing to allow its own citizens home.


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## John H

kenspain said:


> My friend that is staying on our land in Portugal has been advice by the Police to stay where he is and not to try and travel and they are happy with that .


We are quite happy to stay here in rural Almeria for as long as they let us, Ken. Infection rates are low and everybody is obeying the rules


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## jagmanx

So just like uk Eh !!!!!!!!!


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## mfw

John H said:


> Some friends of ours were in Spain last spring/summer and had five ferries home cancelled. They eventually contacted the British Consulate and were transported back home as freight on the same ferry that they would have travelled as passengers! I have never heard of any country refusing to allow its own citizens home.


I'm looking differently to some but if you have travelled against government advise why should they have any responsibility in getting you home again - and if you do something that could have repercussions you accept the risk and you pay the consequences - but that is how i was brought up self inflicted problem is down to you

More to the point anyone that is there i hope they dont have any problems


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## John H

mfw said:


> I'm looking differently to some but if you have travelled against government advise why should they have any responsibility in getting you home again - and if you do something that could have repercussions you accept the risk and you pay the consequences - but that is how i was brought up self inflicted problem is down to you
> 
> More to the point anyone that is there i hope they dont have any problems


I take your point but it was advice and not mandatory. Personally, as I said to Ken, I am happy to stay here as long as they let me but if and when I do decide to come home I cannot imagine there being any barriers to me doing so. It may take a bit more effort than usual but it will be possible.


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## colinm

John H said:


> The question was about UK citizens already abroad returning home.
> 
> Can you provide a link for your second statement? I have not heard anything to support it and the latest advice on the french Government website is that foreign nationals are allowed to return.  Coronavirus - Advice for Foreign Nationals in France - Ministry for Europe and Foreign Affairs (diplomatie.gouv.fr)


My post was about 'Ruth' who from Maries post appears to be in UK, if so they aren't allowed out across the channel, this applies to everyone one at moment no matter what their nationality or place of residence, French citizens are sleeping in commercial vans in Dover at the moment as the hotels can't take them.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> My post was about 'Ruth' who from Maries post appears to be in UK, if so they aren't allowed out across the channel, this applies to everyone one at moment no matter what their nationality or place of residence, French citizens are sleeping in commercial vans in Dover at the moment as the hotels can't take them.



If you look at Ruth's thread you will see that she is currently in Spain, on her way home to Portugal, having crossed the Channel before Macron halted traffic. It was your reference to France not allowing its own citizens home that I questioned. If any French citizen needed to return home immediately, I am sure that they would be able to do so in the same way as our friends did earlier this year. As I said earlier, I am not aware of any country refusing to allow its own citizens home.


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## colinm

The French government have banned all cross channel including their own citizens, they are advising their own citizens to take a CV-19 test in preparation for resumption of travel when it is agreed.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> The French government have banned all cross channel including their own citizens, they are advising their own citizens to take a CV-19 test in preparation for resumption of travel when it is agreed.


As I asked before, could you provide a link for that? The latest information on the French Government website, that I provided a link to, says something different.


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## colinm

John H said:


> As I asked before, could you provide a link for that? The latest information on the French Government website, that I provided a link to, says something different.





> Health Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari said on Monday that meetings were underway for the secure reopening of the border with the UK, which was closed temporarily during the weekend.
> 
> "In the coming hours, at a European level, we will be putting in place a solid health protocol so that flows from the United Kingdom can resume. Our priority: protect our nationals and fellow citizens,’’ Djebbari tweeted.
> 
> In an interview with BFMTV, Djebbari also said French citizens currently stuck in the UK wanting to return home can conduct PCR tests. ``Travelers who are currently in the UK or those who are involved in freight transport can find the right centers, carry out the right test and quickly get into the capacity to come back to France.”



They are not currently allowed to travel, BBC have interviewed several who are stuck here, I don't know what the French are telling their citizens in France, but they are only allowing unaccompanied containers on the boats, no trucks or passengers of any nationality. The test is so they can travel when allowed in future.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> They are not currently allowed to travel, BBC have interviewed several who are stuck here, I don't know what the French are telling their citizens in France, but they are only allowing unaccompanied containers on the boats, no trucks or passengers of any nationality. The test is so they can travel when allowed in future.



My reading of that is very different to yours. The French Government appears to be advising their citizens in the UK to get tested so that they can quickly return to France. that is far from not allowing them to return! If a French citizen who needed to return urgently had a test today you can bet your life that they would be allowed to travel. It is unheard of for a country to refuse to allow its citizens to come home.


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## colinm

John H said:


> My reading of that is very different to yours. The French Government appears to be advising their citizens in the UK to get tested so that they can quickly return to France. that is far from not allowing them to return! If a French citizen who needed to return urgently had a test today you can bet your life that they would be allowed to travel. It is unheard of for a country to refuse to allow its citizens to come home.


Jean Castex on Twitter: "Compte tenu du risque sanitaire nouveau, et dans l'attente de son évaluation, l'ensemble des flux de personnes du Royaume-Uni vers la France sont suspendus à partir de ce soir minuit, pour 48 heures, et pour tous les moyens de transport. https://t.co/nvIfb41Ila" / Twitter

There you go, a complete ban on travel.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> Jean Castex on Twitter: "Compte tenu du risque sanitaire nouveau, et dans l'attente de son évaluation, l'ensemble des flux de personnes du Royaume-Uni vers la France sont suspendus à partir de ce soir minuit, pour 48 heures, et pour tous les moyens de transport. https://t.co/nvIfb41Ila" / Twitter
> 
> There you go, a complete ban on travel.


Well, if it is on Twitter, it must be true! 

And even that statement does not alter what I have said above.


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## REC

Chill, folks! As none of us are French wanting to get home,....the next lot of announced events will, I am sure, (!) clarify the rules. But the French citizens will not take not being allowed home easily, so I feel there will be new plans. My understanding is that 48 hrs is to give time to formulate something! 
@colinmd  I can assure you we are not wandering round the EU spreading the virus irresponsibly...we made careful plans to return to our residence and have no contact with anybody in the journey. Easy to give opinions without knowing the circumstances?


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## colinm

John H said:


> Well, if it is on Twitter, it must be true!
> 
> And even that statement does not alter what I have said above.


It's a French government twitter account, and is for the TOTAL suspension of movements of people.
Suspension totale des flux de personnes du Royaume-Uni vers la France pour 48h | Gouvernement.fr


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## mariesnowgoose

John, there has been a 48 hour total lockdown of all transport in and out of the UK via the Chunnel and by sea, ergo if anyone, French or otherwise, wants to travel to France at the moment it is impossible, unless they have wings.

No one is saying that the French won't be allowing their citizens back home if they are currently in the UK, it just happens to be physically impossible right at this moment.

Which is what I intimated in my earlier post about Ruth; she was very lucky to have crossed the channel a day or so earlier, ahead of all the current chaos and lockdown, on her way to their homestead in Portugal.

Simply a matter of timing and good luck!


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## colinm

mariesnowgoose said:


> John, there has been a 48 hour total lockdown of all transport in and out of the UK via the Chunnel and by sea, ergo if anyone, French or otherwise, wants to travel to France at the moment it is impossible, unless they have wings.


There is nothing stopping stuff coming in, trouble is few EU drivers want to be stuck in UK.


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## colinm

REC said:


> @colinmd  I can assure you we are not wandering round the EU spreading the virus irresponsibly...we made careful plans to return to our residence and have no contact with anybody in the journey. Easy to give opinions without knowing the circumstances?


Never said you were.


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## mariesnowgoose

Beware the green-eyed goddess, folks!


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## REC

mariesnowgoose said:


> Beware the green-eyed goddess, folks!


just re-read my last comment...spreading the virus responsibly rather than irresponsibly!!


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## Markd

REC said:


> Chill, folks! As none of us are French wanting to get home,....the next lot of announced events will, I am sure, (!) clarify the rules. But the French citizens will not take not being allowed home easily, so I feel there will be new plans. My understanding is that 48 hrs is to give time to formulate something!
> @colinmd  I can assure you we are not wandering round the EU spreading the virus irresponsibly...we made careful plans to return to our residence and have no contact with anybody in the journey. Easy to give opinions without knowing the circumstances?


They could always get some rubber dinghies and try their luck


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## mariesnowgoose

Markd said:


> They could always get some rubber dinghies and try their luck



... or a jet ski?


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## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> John, there has been a 48 hour total lockdown of all transport in and out of the UK via the Chunnel and by sea, ergo if anyone, French or otherwise, wants to travel to France at the moment it is impossible, unless they have wings.
> 
> No one is saying that the French won't be allowing their citizens back home if they are currently in the UK, it just happens to be physically impossible right at this moment.
> 
> Which is what I intimated in my earlier post about Ruth; she was very lucky to have crossed the channel a day or so earlier, ahead of all the current chaos and lockdown, on her way to their homestead in Portugal.
> 
> Simply a matter of timing and good luck!



I am sure we have all been delayed in our travels by a day or so. What I was questioning was the implication that people would not be able to get back to their homes. That was just scaremongering.


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## colinm

John H said:


> I am sure we have all been delayed in our travels by a day or so. What I was questioning was the implication that people would not be able to get back to their homes. That was just scaremongering.


The French banned all cross channel travel to all nationalities, no if's, no buts, nobody was allowed across for 2 days, even French citizens, they will now allow EU nationals and those with French residency across, but first they have to take a CV-19 test if they haven't had one in last 72 hours.


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## John H

colinmd said:


> The French banned all cross channel travel to all nationalities, no if's, no buts, nobody was allowed across for 2 days, even French citizens, they will now allow EU nationals and those with French residency across, but first they have to take a CV-19 test if they haven't had one in last 72 hours.


That is hardly the same as saying that they wouldn't allow their own citizens to go home!


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## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> That is hardly the same as saying that they wouldn't allow their own citizens to go home!



This is not really an argument about whether or not citizens can return to their place of residency from overseas.

What most of us are trying to say here is that it's potentially going to be difficult in the short term for people (of whatever nationality!) to return home quickly and easily via the 'normal' routes due to the current (and constantly changing) situation.


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## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> This is not really an argument about whether or not citizens can return to their place of residency from overseas.
> 
> What most of us are trying to say here is that it's potentially going to be difficult in the short term for people (of whatever nationality!) to return home quickly and easily via the 'normal' routes due to the current (and constantly changing) situation.



I understand what most people are saying but more than one poster has tried to sensationalise the question. You mentioned the "little green monster in an earlier post" and I think you may be right.


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## mariesnowgoose

The situation is so strange for everyone that, even after 9 months or more of things being anything but normal, it's still taking time for the implications of exactly what is unfolding here to sink in with everyone.

And of course the 'little green monster' is poking it's head up! Even more so than before due to all the restrictions on our lives right now.

My little green monster has been breathing (non-serious) fire at the likes of @Pauljenny @REC @kenspain etc. for ages, basking in their lovely sunshine, and that was long before C-19 arrived !!!


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## Markd

Let's face it the French weren't allowing anyone in for two days including their own citizens 
They are now letting people in but even their own citizens have to have a covid19 test.


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## Pauljenny

mariesnowgoose said:


> The situation is so strange for everyone that, even after 9 months or more of things being anything but normal, it's still taking time for the implications of exactly what is unfolding here to sink in with everyone.
> 
> And of course the 'little green monster' is poking it's head up! Even more so than before due to all the restrictions on our lives right now.
> 
> My little green monster has been breathing (non-serious) fire at the likes of @Pauljenny @REC @kenspain etc. for ages, basking in their lovely sunshine, and that was long before C-19 arrived !!!


Basking.. ?
Gerraway ..!
You can't see across the valley, this morning .
But we're very lucky to have this place available, when we suddenly had to give up out wandering life 
Mustn't grumble.. At all.!


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## colinm

Pauljenny said:


> Basking.. ?
> Gerraway ..!
> You can't see across the valley, this morning .
> But we're very lucky to have this place available, when we suddenly had to give up out wandering life
> Mustn't grumble.. At all.!


Well I was going to boast about how the sun was shining here this morning, but now the clouds have rolled over. Still it was nice to see the light twinkling through the drops of water on the plants.


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## maureenandtom

EHIC to be replaced by something else - but it looks to me as though we will continut to have reciprocal health services.



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdf
		







and also in a BBC New release.









						Brexit: Will the EHIC still be valid and what is the new GHIC card?
					

A new Global Health Insurance Card is replacing European Health Insurance Card from this year.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## jagmanx

From BBC
The rules for Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are different. You could make a 90-day trip to any of them and still not use up your 90-day allowance for other EU countries. (And of course Turkey and Morocco as they are non EU)
Croatia probably the most useful as a 90 day tour would be extended by whatever time you spend in Croatia
Romania / Bulgaria to boot !
Not sure about say Albania and Kosovo ?









						Travel after Brexit: How will it affect my holidays to the EU?
					

A simple guide to how leaving the EU will affect travel to Europe.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Derekoak

Albania is definitely not in the schengen area, it is not I think in the Eu. Either way it will not count towards your 90 days. It is the warmest place to winter in the Balkans, though no way as warm as Southern Spain. It would be possible to concoct a  long Spring in Uk, summer in the Alps, Autumn in Albania, where the light would be good , but it would become chilly at times, short Winter in Spain, back to UK circuit. 
I have never been to Albania, or the Balkans other than cycling in Croatia.


----------



## jacquigem

Looks pretty wet to me !

Tirana, Albania 14 day weather forecast (timeanddate.com)


----------



## mfw

Have to say if thinking of romania or bulgaria prices are very low to reflect pay - and also a lot of gypsies live there - if you leave anything outside it will almost certainly disappear - lovelly countries in the summer though


----------



## Derekoak

jacquigem said:


> Looks pretty wet to me !
> 
> Tirana, Albania 14 day weather forecast (timeanddate.com)


 Agreed In no way perfect although I would have left well over a month ago, in my theoretical tour and would be in Spain for my just less than 90 days. Do you have a better alternative without residency or visa?
 I suppose I know the alternative. Morocco, but my wife, with 3 visits experience does not want to go there. From the hassle of women point of view the devil you dont know is just -unknown-.


----------



## mfw

Is turkey an option for some might be warmer and it is by land rather than a ferry


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## witzend

What I'm not sure of with the 90 day limit and driving is does our 90 start when we enter France and end when we exit France  If so How could say staying for a few extra days in say  Morocco  during our trip work if our visit is timed at france \ uk border ?


----------



## Derekoak

The 90 days is from entry to the schengen area to exit, a few days in Morocco just gives the same few days spare.  Because 90 in any 180 days


----------



## jacquigem

Derekoak said:


> Agreed In no way perfect although I would have left well over a month ago, in my theoretical tour and would be in Spain for my just less than 90 days. Do you have a better alternative without residency or visa?
> I suppose I know the alternative. Morocco, but my wife, with 3 visits experience does not want to go there. From the hassle of women point of view the devil you dont know is just -unknown-.


No, I can't see an alternative but I did think it was an interesting idea so gad a quick look. For us with no viable alternative we have gone for Spanish residency.


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## Minisorella

I found out something recently that I'd never properly understood before. I know the UK has never been part of Schengen but I hadn't realised that we've never been allowed to stay/travel within Schengen countries for more than 90 days in 180 without applying for a Schengen Visa to extend things. I can only assume the EU has turned a blind eye to this in the past for some reason but legally, nothing much has actually changed on this aspect. Given everything that's been said on the forum in recent years, I was honestly surprised to learn this and even googled further to make sure it was true! I find it sort of comforting to be honest - not sure why.

Anyhoo, back to now... it sounds as though most of the EU residents who have been stuck here for the best part of a week since France closed its boders to the UK have now been able to cross, with negative COVID tests clutched in their mitts. Their families will be so relieved, bless 'em. I can't imagine what it must have been like for the many thousands who were trapped in freezing southern ports... most stuck in their trucks for Christmas   Thank goodness there were lots of kind souls and charities distributing food and drinks to the stranded truckers and charging their phones, etc. I know lots of people feel very differently for many good reasons but nothing in this world would induce me to head across the channel until all the day to day uncertainty, changeability and worry about the pandemic is over. Roll on vaccine day!


----------



## Derekoak

Minisorella said:


> I found out something recently that I'd never properly understood before. I know the UK has never been part of Schengen but I hadn't realised that we've never been allowed to stay/travel within Schengen countries for more than 90 days in 180 without applying for a Schengen Visa to extend things. I can only assume the EU has turned a blind eye to this in the past for some reason but legally, nothing much has actually changed on this aspect. Given everything that's been said on the forum in recent years, I was honestly surprised to learn this and even googled further to make sure it was true! I find it sort of comforting to be honest - not sure why.
> 
> Anyhoo, back to now... it sounds as though most of the EU residents who have been stuck here for the best part of a week since France closed its boders to the UK have now been able to cross, with negative COVID tests clutched in their mitts. Their families will be so relieved, bless 'em. I can't imagine what it must have been like for the many thousands who were trapped in freezing southern ports... most stuck in their trucks for Christmas   Thank goodness there were lots of kind souls and charities distributing food and drinks to the stranded truckers and charging their phones, etc. I know lots of people feel very differently for many good reasons but nothing in this world would induce me to head across the channel until all the day to day uncertainty, changeability and worry about the pandemic is over. Roll on vaccine day!


You have been misled by Google. The error is probably We are not really in schengen at the moment but in the last days of transition.
The UK WAS  in the Schengen area and a full member of the EU  until last January, and nothing will change regarding free movement for another few days. 
Found by me on google:
"People also ask
When did UK leave Schengen?
January 31st, 2020
The UK left the EU on January 31st, 2020 with a Withdrawal Agreement signed between the 2 parties on January 30th, 2020. An 11-month transition period began at midnight (CET) on the 31st, during which time trade and travel will continue as before.26 Oct 2020"

 That is why we had no trouble with access, no turning of blind eyes, just legislation.


----------



## Minisorella

Derekoak said:


> You have been misled by Google. The error is probably We are not really in schengen at the moment but in the last days of transition.
> The UK WAS  in the Schengen area and a full member of the EU  until last January, and nothing will change regarding free movement for another few days.
> Found by me on google:
> "People also ask
> When did UK leave Schengen?
> January 31st, 2020
> The UK left the EU on January 31st, 2020 with a Withdrawal Agreement signed between the 2 parties on January 30th, 2020. An 11-month transition period began at midnight (CET) on the 31st, during which time trade and travel will continue as before.26 Oct 2020"
> 
> That is why we had no trouble with access, no turning of blind eyes, just legislation.



No, not misled...








						Schengen Area - Visa Information for Schengen Countries
					

A list of 26 countries makes for a Schengen region which allows its citizens free movement in and out of the Schengen area.




					www.schengenvisainfo.com
				












						Schengen: Controversial EU free movement deal explained
					

The Schengen Agreement enables border-free travel in much of the EU, as the BBC's Laurence Peter explains.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Derekoak

@Minisorella yes to find your error actually read my text! We are not in schengen now,  we are in transition! We were though! Do not ask Google who is in schengen? ask who was in schengen last year?


----------



## colinm

Derekoak said:


> @Minisorella yes to find your error actually read my text! We are not in schengen now,  we are in transition! We were though!


Where did you find that piece of misleading information? We have never been in the Schengen area.


----------



## jacquigem

I think Schengen travel and EU free movement are 2 different things. We were never in Schengen but were in EU which gave us free movement. Now we will be out of both so 90 day rule applies. I think if you look at Norway who are in schengen but not full EU members. They can stay for more than 90 days under Schengen rules and don't need full EU free movements. Might solve some travel problems on here but can't see the Brexiterz liking it because it would open up our borders to other schengen countries. 
Should GB apply for Schengen?


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## Derekoak

I was not correct. I asked google "when did the uk leave schengen" and believed the result. What Jacqui says must be true we had access to the schegen area as of right through EU membership. 
I was correct in  "no turning of blind eye" but legislation though


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## Derekoak

I noted in that sort out that Ireland is not in Schengen . Does that mean Ireland is not in the 90 in 180 rule?


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## jacquigem

Derekoak said:


> I noted in that sort out that Ireland is not in Schengen . Does that mean Ireland is not in the 90 in 180 rule?


Good question, just found this


What is the Common Travel Area between Ireland and UK?
There is an arrangement between the UK and Ireland called the Common Travel Area. The CTA is a long-standing arrangement between the UK and Ireland that has its origins in the 1920s, long before either the UK or Ireland joined the EU . The Common Travel Area (CTA) allows British and Irish citizens to move freely between the two countries.

Still another arrangement but looks like you could move freely between uk and southern ireland ?


----------



## witzend

Derekoak said:


> The 90 days is from entry to the schengen area to exit, a few days in Morocco just gives the same few days spare.  Because 90 in any 180 days


So does that mean I can have 90 days + what ever time I spend in Moroco enter france then leave 100 days later without getting a fine for over staying by 10 days


----------



## jacquigem

witzend said:


> So does that mean I can have 90 days + what ever time I spend in Moroco enter france then leave 100 days later without getting a fine for over staying by 10 days


I think (?) that you can only spend  max of 90 days in 180 and then must have 90 out of 180 outside schengen. Not sure if they measure down to the hour but getting too complicated for my poor brain. Also if thinking about Morocco and have a dog check out requirements for pet travel between Spain and Morocco. Sorry my head is hurting!


----------



## colinm

If you haven't already done so, then bookmark 'Schengen  calculator', you can enter dates and see how many days.
Don't forget if you decide on a 90 day stay in winter, say Dec, Jan, and Feb, then you can't go back until June.


----------



## RV2MAX

witzend said:


> So does that mean I can have 90 days + what ever time I spend in Morocco enter France then leave 100 days later without getting a fine for over staying by 10 days


90 in 180 is a rolling calculation so the 180 starts on the day of entry into France  , you then need to look at how many days you have spent so if 90 days  , then you leave into Morocco,  10 days in Morocco  and need to not re enter  EU for 80 days .


----------



## barryd

I think as regarding the rules of Schengen and free movement within the EU if you are a member the 90 days was I believe per country not for the entire Schengen area. I think it also "legally" applies to all member states.  As a member you are not supposed to stay in "one" country for more than 90 days at a time without registering but you can I believe still travel around other countries or hop in and out to reset the clock.  I guess it was a rule member states took no notice of unless it was ever perhaps needed to get shot of an undesirable migrant from within the union.  The same rules applied to us as EU members.

Now of course its a different kettle of fish and 90 days in your 180 in all of Schengen is your limit so completely different to what we had before and they really do come down hard on people who break the rules.

As for Dodging in and out of Schengen it is dooable I reckon to extend the trip. You could do 45 days in Spain, 45 days in Morocco (or longer) then another 45 in Spain or France say.  you could also do this with a summer trip and maybe include somewhere like Croatia.


----------



## Markd

Or if you really want to spend more than 90 days in a row in Spain just get a Visa!!
Surely no more expensive than a return ferry ride or two?


----------



## barryd

Markd said:


> Or if you really want to spend more than 90 days in a row in Spain just get a Visa!!
> Surely no more expensive than a return ferry ride or two?



I dont think its that easy.  You have to have a permanent address for a kick off I believe.  Doubt a motorhome on a campsite will do.


----------



## jagmanx

Europe and EU are as we know NOT exactly the same.
Schengen countries different again..(Switzerland and Norway to name 2 with differing status)
As EU citizens "Freedom of movement" overode Schengen..Hence no 90 day limit etc
Despite the recent deal on 1st January EU rules do not apply to UK citizens
AND Schengen rules apply. Those UK citizens with residency status in any Schengen Country have no limit.
My suggestion of Romania Albania etc were intended to extend a 3 month summer trip
Even Southern Turkey is cold and others are very cold .
Morocco is not too cold and mainly sunny and dry ..so  say 1 month would allow a 4 month trip to mainly Spain.
Suggestions for extra  either a Schengen extended visa  or "fiddling residence" (say on a campsite in Spain or Portugal) are *in my opinion unviable for most.*
I doubt that any countries will either break ranks or turn blind eyes
Whether in summer or winter extended stays in any of the non Schengen countries are not really desirable (*again IMO only)*


----------



## mfw

If you chance it and over 90 days out of country whether you try and manipulate the system or not - plod stops you - could your van get confiscated - and you get escorted to the next available flight back home - all speculation still until next year when all will be known + some unforseen problems i expect


----------



## Pedalman

John H said:


> I love a positive attitude!



I once went to a positive thinking course ........it was crap !


----------



## mfw

Pedalman said:


> I once went to a positive thinking course ........it was crap !


Yes prepare for the worst and it can only get better


----------



## John H

Markd said:


> Or if you really want to spend more than 90 days in a row in Spain just get a Visa!!
> Surely no more expensive than a return ferry ride or two?



Nowhere near as simple as that - complicated and expensive procedure, involving many documents, all translated into Spanish and applied for in person at the Spanish Consulate in your home country before you leave - and it is by no means certain that they will accept tourism as a valid reason.


----------



## Deleted member 24156

What about a Shengan Visa take your pick of language. How about Lithuanian.


----------



## barryd

jagmanx said:


> Europe and EU are as we know NOT exactly the same.
> Schengen countries different again..(Switzerland and Norway to name 2 with differing status)
> As EU citizens "Freedom of movement" overode Schengen..Hence no 90 day limit etc
> Despite the recent deal on 1st January EU rules do not apply to UK citizens
> AND Schengen rules apply. Those UK citizens with residency status in any Schengen Country have no limit.
> My suggestion of Romania Albania etc were intended to extend a 3 month summer trip
> Even Southern Turkey is cold and others are very cold .
> Morocco is not too cold and mainly sunny and dry ..so  say 1 month would allow a 4 month trip to mainly Spain.
> Suggestions for extra  either a Schengen extended visa  or "fiddling residence" (say on a campsite in Spain or Portugal) are *in my opinion unviable for most.*
> I doubt that any countries will either break ranks or turn blind eyes
> *Whether in summer or winter extended stays in any of the non Schengen countries are not really desirable* (*again IMO only)*



For summer I think Croatia might be viable but not ideal.  You could do July and August in say France, Italy, Austria, Slovenia and then go into Croatia for the backend before slowly travelling back in October.  Or you could do Spring in Croatia (Long drive) and then the bulk of your 90 days in Schengen over summer.  Its the only one for summer that is kind of handy(ish).  Not ideal though really.

The other option I might have considered is the French Visa but it sounds a right carry on and expensive with no Guarantee of success at the end of it all.   Its a flipping disaster for long term motorhoming.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

barryd said:


> For summer I think Croatia might be viable but not ideal.  You could do July and August in say France, Italy, Austria, Slovenia and then go into Croatia for the backend before slowly travelling back in October.  Or you could do Spring in Croatia (Long drive) and then the bulk of your 90 days in Schengen over summer.  Its the only one for summer that is kind of handy(ish).  Not ideal though really.
> 
> The other option I might have considered is the French Visa but it sounds a right carry on and expensive with no Guarantee of success at the end of it all.   Its a flipping disaster for long term motorhoming.



This 90 day ruling thingamabob surely only applies to those who are lucky enough to have enough leisure time (and money) to spend such long periods of time  overseas? i.e. retirees or rich b-stewards who don't have to work...


----------



## jagmanx

Quite correct MSG but also useful for Full-timers over winter and others who have given up their house..
As you imply a minority but a shame the option has gone (after the new year).


----------



## John H

dafyd69 said:


> What about a Shengan Visa take your pick of language. How about Lithuanian.


There is no such thing as a Schengen visa beyond 90 days - you have to apply to the individual country you wish to spend time in.


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> This 90 day ruling thingamabob surely only applies to those who are lucky enough to have enough leisure time (and money) to spend such long periods of time  overseas? i.e. retirees or rich b-stewards who don't have to work...


Well, we might qualify for most of those insults but we are certainly not rich. One of the reasons we all do this is that it is cheaper to live long-term in a motorhome in Spain than it is to live in a house in England


----------



## Deleted member 24156

A quick trip to Lithuania then anywhere in Shengan. No border checks.???


----------



## barryd

mariesnowgoose said:


> This 90 day ruling thingamabob surely only applies to those who are lucky enough to have enough leisure time (and money) to spend such long periods of time  overseas? i.e. retirees or rich b-stewards who don't have to work...



LOL! Well Ive been doing it since my early 40s!    I was still working though. I just pretended to clients I was in an office. 

This could be a glimmer of hope for France at least.   Trouble is its clearly not on the UK Governments radar. Perhaps they would prefer we spent our money in the UK so I Cant see them fighting for it. They never even responded to the journalist when asked for a comment.





__





						Flexibility on France 90-day visa after Brexit is 'possible'
					

Europe Minister has suggested France could take measures to extend the visa-free time limit to allow UK visitors, including second-home owners, to stay longer




					www.connexionfrance.com


----------



## John H

dafyd69 said:


> A quick trip to Lithuania then anywhere in Shengan. No border checks.???


I don't know much (anything, really!) about Lithuanian visas but their website says they can only be extended in "exceptional" circumstances, so I don't think that will help


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> *Well, we might qualify for most of those insults but we are certainly not rich*. One of the reasons we all do this is that it is cheaper to live long-term in a motorhome in Spain than it is to live in a house in England



I'm just suffering from green-eyed-monster syndrome, John, for all those lucky enough to be able to escape to the continent at *any* time, not just current 'exceptional' times


----------



## Snapster

jagmanx said:


> Europe and EU are as we know NOT exactly the same.
> Schengen countries different again..(Switzerland and Norway to name 2 with differing status)
> As EU citizens "Freedom of movement" overode Schengen..Hence no 90 day limit etc
> Despite the recent deal on 1st January EU rules do not apply to UK citizens
> AND Schengen rules apply. *Those UK citizens with residency status in any Schengen Country have no limit..........*


Oh, if only that were true. As a British national and a French resident, we, of course can stay as long as we like in France because we live there, but will be subject to the 90 day rule if we visit other countries in the Schengen zone, the same as any other UK national.


Edited and removed potential controversial idea!


----------



## REC

Snapster said:


> Oh, if only that were true. As a British national and a French resident, we, of course can stay as long as we like in France because we live there, but will be subject to the 90 day rule if we visit other countries in the Schengen zone, the same as any other UK national.
> 
> 
> Edited and removed potential controversial idea!


It is hard to see how one can prove how long spent in residence and how long in Schengen area though? We plan to save receipts from Portugal and then from Spain and France to prove date left etc, but not sure if that is foolproof or acceptable...we shall see! Once we are able to travel around again, of course! Easy at the moment as leave Portugal and three days later crossing the border back into UK!


----------



## Snapster

No, we can’t see how anyone will know how long we spend in any country as we have a French registered van and will not cross any non Schengen borders. Different to anyone entering the Schengen countries though, where passports and country of residence will be logged in and out of the zones when the new border computers will be active


----------



## colinm

mfw said:


> If you chance it and over 90 days out of country whether you try and manipulate the system or not - plod stops you - could your van get confiscated - and you get escorted to the next available flight back home - all speculation still until next year when all will be known + some unforseen problems i expect


There are three punishments for overstaying, and there are two scenarios for getting caught.
Firstly, you will get caught, as you are checked in and checked out, secondly you might get caught whilst still touring.
The three punishments are, deportation, fine, ban.
Either way you can expect the fine, but quite what happens after that is anyone's guess.


----------



## Deleted member 25361

I think when the Spanish economy begins too suffer you will certainly see travel restrictions eased without a doubt. That will go for the rest of Europe too!


----------



## John H

WillyO said:


> I think when the Spanish economy begins too suffer you will certainly travel restrictions eased without a doubt. That will go for the rest of Europe too!


I don't know what the figures are but I suspect that those of us who want to stay more than 3 months and who are not resident are a very small number with very little effect on the Spanish economy, so I do not share your view. However, there is potential good news on the horizon because it looks as if there might be a successor to EHIC, which will mean that we will only need private insurance for time spent in, say, Morocco. Thus it is looking increasingly possible for us to spend, say, two months plus in Spain, two months plus in Morocco and then a further month in Spain, which will take care of the winter nicely


----------



## Derekoak

90 day maximum camper insurance is cheaper than longer trip insurance. At first I can imagine 3 trips per year of 90 day or less each. One summer one levened with say a month or more in the Balkans  and a winter one levened with a trip to morocco. The third could be just Eu based. That would probably be more than enough for us. The possible  Ehic continuation is good news


----------



## Snapster

WillyO said:


> I think when the Spanish economy begins too suffer you will certainly see travel restrictions eased without a doubt. That will go for the rest of Europe too!


I read that the interpretation of the guidelines will be up to individual member countries up to a point, but I think they will have difficulties bending them for financial reasons. Far better for them to try to get some sort of official relaxation of the rules, but, I should imagine Spains tourist industry relies much more on package holidays and regular holidaymakers to their resorts / hotels. 
It would be interesting to find out how much the tourist industry makes on those who have in the past stayed for extended periods to see if it is worthwhile making representations to allow them to stay. At the moment, ( after 1 January) longer stays will only be allowed with visas, which I understand are costly and not that easy to obtain. 
As far as I know, France ( and maybe other countries) are looking for ways to extend the 90 day rule for second home owners, but, of course, this will rely on reciprocal arrangements from the countries these people live in.


----------



## jacquigem

UK tourism 4% of Spanish GDP last time I looked. Most of that will be short haul holidaymakers. Don't think restricting long termers to 90 days will be that difficult. Many have taken residency and so will spend even more time and money in Spain. Plus will pay income tax to Spain not UK. Will be a counterbalance I think but we will see


----------



## mfw

mariesnowgoose said:


> This 90 day ruling thingamabob surely only applies to those who are lucky enough to have enough leisure time (and money) to spend such long periods of time  overseas? i.e. retirees or rich b-stewards who don't have to work...


A lot like me took a gamble and gave work up early - time is my own now i can do what i want - had company pension scheme that i took at 56 lost half of it due to taking early - but it certainly is not a rich persons only thing - it is cheap and if you want to do it while you still can ( age wise ) you have to take risks - and i get nothing off the state not even old enough to claim state pension


----------



## jacquigem

Yes , similar here .We would really struggle to live in the UK (we know when we return for a few weeks) but can live reasonably well with the lower costs in Spain. Still skint at the end of the month though !


----------



## REC

It is a very big step to give up stability and financial security for what we "hope" is a better way of life. Never regretted it ourselves, but we were lucky in that I gave up work gradually and did agency for a few years. All precipitated by serious illness, we decided it was as risky planning to do it all " in the future" as going for it. Got to wait another two years for my state pension...lost a lot of occupational pension. But saving on the cost of working makes up for it a bit.  Gone a bit off thread here!


----------



## RV2MAX

I dont see how the 90 in 180 Schengen rule is going to be dodged by individual countries , as the clock starts and ends at UK border , and anything over 90 will likely trigger alarm  and require explaining how the two dates are 90+ apart ?  If they don't have an exit logged elsewhere  within the 90 eg Morocco


----------



## mfw

As goods are allowed to freely travel between uk and europe and drivers spend a lot of time there if were lucky the eu may give us more than 90 days but time will tell


----------



## Snapster

I suspect there will be exemptions for essential travel ( eg lorry drivers, etc) probably arranged by governments or dealt with by essential travel visas. The whole of the Schengen area and borders will be linked by their new computer system, which will include handheld devices so police/ customs can check the status of third country nationals found within the area.  Each individual country will be at liberty to deal with infringements of the 90 day rules as they see fit as long as the basic guidelines are adhered to, so, staying longer than your allotted time will not be possible, even though some think it won’t happen. 
The main reasons for the new Schengen computer system is to secure the borders against terrorism, illegal entry and overstaying, whether on holiday or not.


----------



## jagmanx

Thanks @Snapster.....Like it or not "Covid-19" rules will also use similar "app/gps based" system or the need for checkins.
A bit "Big Brotherish" but probably both legal and necessary.
IMO you break the rules at your peril !!!

PS Interesting to read that you are similarly restricted ouside of France


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> *As goods are allowed to freely travel between uk and europe *and drivers spend a lot of time there if were lucky the eu may give us more than 90 days but time will tell


But they are not! Freedom of movement ends on December 31st, not only for people but also for goods. The deal that has been done means that many (but not all) goods will be tariff free but it does not mean that they can be shipped freely. There will be a lot of extra checks and paperwork and thus a lot of delays, at least initially as people get used to the new system.


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> But they are not! Freedom of movement ends on December 31st, not only for people but also for goods. The deal that has been done means that many (but not all) goods will be tariff free but it does not mean that they can be shipped freely. There will be a lot of extra checks and paperwork and thus a lot of delays, at least initially as people get used to the new system.



I wondered about this.  As it appears our government have done nothing or at least not much to prepare for having to deal with a massive amount of checks and red tape is the outgoing flow of traffic going to be far worse than the incoming?  I think they promised 3000-5000 new customs officers but have only recruited 16.  This suggests its going to be business as usual for incoming and no checks will be made but it wont be the case the other way around I am sure as the EU and the French will be keen to protect their single market.  The point being, there is going to be massive delays getting onto Ferries leaving the UK.  How will this effect none commercial traffic, as in us motorhomers?  Will there be a lane on the M20 open just for us or will we be stuck up the back of the Queue somewhere near the M25?


----------



## Debroos

Not heard much mention of this over here...









						Brexit traffic measures introduced at Holyhead port
					

Traffic easing measures are to be introduced at the second biggest roll-on roll-off port in the UK over fears of jams post-Brexit.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## jagmanx

C H A O S. This time planned well ahead but with little guidance or advice.
Despite the fact that the UK powers were also presumably ware that "no Deal" was  a possibility.
No doubt an acute shortage of suitably employed and trained staff as well !


----------



## oppy

What about our gallons of wine in the back of the van (helping keep the back wheels stable !!), will we going back to the old way do you think?


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> But they are not! Freedom of movement ends on December 31st, not only for people but also for goods. The deal that has been done means that many (but not all) goods will be tariff free but it does not mean that they can be shipped freely. There will be a lot of extra checks and paperwork and thus a lot of delays, at least initially as people get used to the new system.


So youre saying a small transport business that moves items to and from europe is no longer going to be allowed to do it and will therefore go out of business - and ultimately you looking at a level playing field so are eu drivers restricted to the same rule over here


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> So youre saying a small transport business that moves items to and from europe is no longer going to be allowed to do it and will therefore go out of business - and ultimately you looking at a level playing field so are eu drivers restricted to the same rule over here


No, that is not what I am saying. You said that goods were travelling freely. I pointed out that they are travelling but not freely.


----------



## John H

oppy said:


> What about our gallons of wine in the back of the van (helping keep the back wheels stable !!), will we going back to the old way do you think?


The new limits have been announced and you will be allowed up to 18 litres of wine each so to maximise the amount you need to squeeze more people into your vehicle!


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> No, that is not what I am saying. You said that goods were travelling freely. I pointed out that they are travelling but not freely.


Both viewing this differently - i'm saying that to keep drivers and businesses going you may find that they alter the 90/180 rule looking at the level playing field as well - no-one knows what will really happen in the next few months but it may become a necessity for the transport hub therefore opening the door to everyone and just requiring people to prove they can afford to stay ie a regular income work or pension income


----------



## jeffmossy

I wonder if the GB reg plates will still be ok . or back to the good old GB sticker on the back of your van


----------



## RoaminRog

jeffmossy said:


> I wonder if the GB reg plates will still be ok . or back to the good old GB sticker on the back of your van


We will have to use the old fashioned GB sticker Jeff.


----------



## Mrscake

mfw said:


> No worries what is worst they could do - probably only arrest you take you to airport and force you to fly back leaving van where it is until you can collect it again


And the 10k fine...


----------



## jeffmossy

I have got some in the van Rog , better not forget to put one on before we get the green light


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Both viewing this differently - i'm saying that to keep drivers and businesses going you may find that they alter the 90/180 rule looking at the level playing field as well - no-one knows what will really happen in the next few months but it may become a necessity for the transport hub therefore opening the door to everyone and just requiring people to prove they can afford to stay ie a regular income work or pension income



You cannot equate workers and tourists. Special arrangements for drivers do not mean special arrangements for tourists.


----------



## Snapster

John H said:


> You cannot equate workers and tourists. Special arrangements for drivers do not mean special arrangements for tourists.


Quite right. As I posted earlier, hauliers and other professionals that might be reasonably expected to spend more than 90 days in the EU in every 180 will be subject to different rules, possibly by obtaining visas or some other waiver. Tourists will not be allowed to overstay unless they have good reason and obtain a visa from each country they will be staying in after their 90 days.


----------



## SHABBINS

mariesnowgoose said:


> This 90 day ruling thingamabob surely only applies to those who are lucky enough to have enough leisure time (and money) to spend such long periods of time  overseas? i.e. retirees or rich b-stewards who don't have to work...





RoaminRog said:


> We will have to use the old fashioned GB sticker Jeff.


I wondered why mine was nicked off the back in Europe this year. Was it you Rog?


----------



## mfw

For people with pets how do you get round this if it is no longer valid


*When the UK was a European Union (EU) member you were able to take your dog or cat from the UK to the EU and back again without them having to go into quarantine, provided that certain conditions - such as having a pet passport and getting them microchipped - were met.*
That will continue to be the case for the rest of 2020 while the UK is in a transition period with the EU.
From 1 January 2021, however, pet passports will no longer be valid. This was confirmed by the European Commission after the future EU-UK deal was announced


----------



## REC

mfw said:


> For people with pets how do you get round this if it is no longer valid
> 
> 
> *When the UK was a European Union (EU) member you were able to take your dog or cat from the UK to the EU and back again without them having to go into quarantine, provided that certain conditions - such as having a pet passport and getting them microchipped - were met.*
> That will continue to be the case for the rest of 2020 while the UK is in a transition period with the EU.
> From 1 January 2021, however, pet passports will no longer be valid. This was confirmed by the European Commission after the future EU-UK deal was announced


Think it's only the document which is not considered valid when travelling to the EU . They have to be seen by a vet and a health certificate issued now. But reading This article ok to use passport when returning to Uk if issued before 1st jan, or a health certificate.


----------



## terry111

And, if like me you have an old fashioned paper driving licence, you may need an International Driving Permit, see UK Government. I suppose I could just give in and go for one of the new fangled plastic ones, I was just trying to do my bit for the environment.


----------



## trevskoda

terry111 said:


> And, if like me you have an old fashioned paper driving licence, you may need an International Driving Permit, see UK Government. I suppose I could just give in and go for one of the new fangled plastic ones, I was just trying to do my bit for the environment.


There has been no paper licence for almost 30 years, think you are well out of date.


----------



## terry111

trevskoda said:


> There has been no paper licence for almost 30 years, think you are well out of date.


It's valid until I'm 70, unless I change my address


----------



## mfw

REC said:


> Think it's only the document which is not considered valid when travelling to the EU . They have to be seen by a vet and a health certificate issued now. But reading This article ok to use passport when returning to Uk if issued before 1st jan, or a health certificate.



Suppose we will find out soon enough of any pet travel issues


----------



## barryd

I am wondering if its true that the French are considering extending Visa free travel to France from the UK for 180 days (see article I posted earlier) how it would work in practice.  Would you have to stay in France? What happens if after say 100 days in France you decide to go to Spain for a week and get stopped for some reason and they discover you have been in Schengen for 100 days even though you have been legally in France all that time?  It could open a can of worms. My idea would be to tour the rest of Europe for three months then spend the last three months in France.   When you finally leave though the Schengen system will flag you up (in France) as an overstayer. What happens then? Do you just say "Oh ive been in France all this time"?  

All speculation I guess for now.


----------



## RoaminRog

jeffmossy said:


> I wonder if the GB reg plates will still be ok . or back to the good old GB sticker on the back of your van


Taken from gov.uk.
*GB stickers and number plates*
Display a Great Britain (GB) sticker on the rear of the vehicle and trailer, even if the vehicle has a number plate with the Euro symbol and a GB national identifier.

You do not need to display a GB sticker to drive in Ireland.


----------



## RoaminRog

SHABBINS said:


> I wondered why mine was nicked off the back in Europe this year. Was it you Rog?


Let that be my little secret!


----------



## RoaminRog

mfw said:


> For people with pets how do you get round this if it is no longer valid
> 
> 
> *When the UK was a European Union (EU) member you were able to take your dog or cat from the UK to the EU and back again without them having to go into quarantine, provided that certain conditions - such as having a pet passport and getting them microchipped - were met.*
> That will continue to be the case for the rest of 2020 while the UK is in a transition period with the EU.
> From 1 January 2021, however, pet passports will no longer be valid. This was confirmed by the European Commission after the future EU-UK deal was announced


We have been quoted £21.40 for transferring all the information to the new Animal Health Certificate, which will be valid for 4 months. In other words, we have to do this every time we go abroad. Just a money making scheme methinks. You can bet your bottom dollar there will be no fixed fee, Vets will be able to charge whatever they like, as usual!


----------



## Drover

RoaminRog said:


> We have been quoted £21.40 for transferring all the information to the new Animal Health Certificate, which will be valid for 4 months. In other words, we have to do this every time we go abroad. Just a money making scheme methinks. You can bet your bottom dollar there will be no fixed fee, Vets will be able to charge whatever they like, as usual!


Our vet has said the uk passport is invalid and we need a AHC and is 10 pages thick written in the language of the country you enter and English. Cost would be approx £100. 
He said get a french one as the only downside would be a french vet doing the rabies jab every 3 years, (we will be looking into this ) the uk accepts the french one in and out of the uk.
All a pain in the ass.


----------



## REC

This link may be of interest...being updated as situation evolves but makes the new agreement a little clearer








						23 Brexit need-to-knows
					

Brexit is a once-in-a-lifetime event with implications on everything from travel to property prices. MoneySavingExpert explains what it means for you.




					www.moneysavingexpert.com


----------



## mariesnowgoose

chrisjones18 said:


> Our vet has said the uk passport is invalid and we need a AHC and is 10 pages thick written in the language of the country you enter and English. Cost would be approx £100.
> He said get a french one as the only downside would be a french vet doing the rabies jab every 3 years, (we will be looking into this ) the uk accepts the french one in and out of the uk.
> *All a pain in the ass.*



Yes, but you shouldn't really grumble as the pain will be more in your dog's ass than yours


----------



## mfw

Due to choices it would not surprise me if proof of covid vaccination becomes a requirement for travel so for those that dont want to take it - it could ruin future plans


----------



## barryd

mfw said:


> Due to choices it would not surprise me if proof of covid vaccination becomes a requirement for travel so for those that dont want to take it - it could ruin future plans



Quantas already in November stated in the future you would have to have had the vaccine to fly with them.  I would imagine others will follow suit.  I wonder how it would be policed in practice.  Pubs, hotels, ferries even?  Will you get a certificate?  Maybe a microchip! 









						Qantas Airways Moves To Require COVID-19 Vaccine For Air Travel
					

A widespread vaccine for COVID-19 hasn’t reached the public yet, but already, airlines are planning for how to accomodate travelers in the post-pandemic age.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## jagmanx

Yes I suspect both a proof of jab and also a very recent test as with "Fit to Fly" will be the norm.
Many considerations
1 does the vaccine stop you transmitting
2 how long does the vaccine last
3 If any certificate includes your passport no ..what happens when you change passport
In principle good but as with many other vaccines (yellow fever for one) how will it all work

Early days ..perhaps pets travelling abroad will need an owners passport


----------



## mossypossy

CommonPass | Digital Health App
					

CommonPass is a digital health app that enables travelers to present standardized, verifiable proof that they tested negative or were vaccinated for COVID-19.




					commonpass.org
				




Something like this will perhaps be the way forward to travel again. If you don't have a smart phone you may have to stay at home though.


----------



## trevskoda

terry111 said:


> It's valid until I'm 70, unless I change my address


They only last 10 years and they stopped them here many years back, mainland must be different.


----------



## Robmac

trevskoda said:


> They only last 10 years and they stopped them here many years back, mainland must be different.



They stopped issuing them in 1998 but any issued before that are still valid or so I read somewhere.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Robmac said:


> They stopped issuing them in 1998 but any issued before that are still valid or so I read somewhere.



I think that's right, Rob.

Got a couple of friends who still have their old-fashioned paper licenses.

Think mine was lost when I got done for speeding and was forced to get the new plastic card license as a result.

Moral of the story - don't get caught speeding or breaking any other traffic regulations if you wanted to hang on to your old paper license!


----------



## Drover

Avoiding the vaccine here is a bit on Gibraltar from Jan 1st 
An agreement in principle has been reached between the UK and Spain over Gibraltar’s future relationship with the European Union. 

The Chief minister says the agreement allows Gibraltar to avert the worst effects of a Hard Brexit. He says no aspect of the agreement transgress Sovereignty, Jurisdiction and Control.

Fabian Picardo says the new proposed agreement will allow Gibraltar to re-set its relationship with Spain. 

The agreement will allow for maximised and unrestricted access to the Schengen area, for people and Goods. 

A new proposed framework would govern all relationships between Gibraltar and the EU.

Spain as the member state will be responsible for implementing Schengen, which would see the European border Agency Frontex control entry and access points in Gibraltar for an initial period of 4 years. 

When asked by GBC, Mr Picardo said people should not be concerned, about Guardia Civil agents controlling Gibraltar’s entry and exit points after the initial 4 year period. 

With negotiations having gone to the wire, the Chief Minister says a few lose threads remain and that these will be sorted out over the next few weeks.


----------



## mossypossy

Cul de sac topic.
French law (2021) now states you have to have blind spot stickers if you are above 3.5 tonne.
eg








						Truck autocollants Stickers sign attention danger Angles Morts blind angle 6 lot  | eBay
					

Sticker adhésif d'angles morts pour véhicule lourd, camion et bus en Gironde.



					www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## Snapster

Good thing about living in France, we got 2021 first, so we’ve been in bed for an hour.........


----------



## witzend

https://twitter.com/DVLAgovuk 



> Transport Secretary Grant Shapps tweeted that if you have GB on your number plate alongside a union flag (as opposed to an EU flag) then you won't need a sticker in most EU countries.


 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47459859

got mine here https://tinyurl.com/ycof5q7b and arrived in 24 hrs


----------



## number14

I was hoping you could have a Welsh flag with GB underneath but it seems this is not a legal combination and neither, of course, is the Welsh flag with CYM (Cymru)


----------



## Deleted member 25361

jacquigem said:


> UK tourism 4% of Spanish GDP last time I looked. Most of that will be short haul holidaymakers. Don't think restricting long termers to 90 days will be that difficult. Many have taken residency and so will spend even more time and money in Spain. Plus will pay income tax to Spain not UK. Will be a counterbalance I think but we will see


I'm  intending to do that in Portugal  hopefully by the end of this year. Sell up and buy a little land for habitation.


----------



## jacquigem

I would suggest you apply sooner rather than later ,even if you don't complete .Rumour in Spain is that eligibility requirements  may get tougher including language tests etc .Don't know about Portugal though.


----------



## mfw

I own a property in Bulgaria not sure if that will become advantageous or not but property is peanut prices there though


----------



## jagmanx

So you will be bale to spend time there as it is non-schengen.
Summer only presumably as it gets very cold in winter


----------



## mfw

jagmanx said:


> Summer only presumably as it gets very cold in winter


Blizzards and arctic conditions in winter - property there is poor build quality and i've given up on the property only worth 5-6k anyway i reckon but the land is probably worth that anyway


----------



## Markd

mfw said:


> As goods are allowed to freely travel between uk and europe and drivers spend a lot of time there if were lucky the eu may give us more than 90 days but time will tell


Are they? I thought there was a whole load of nee paperwork.
No tariffs or quotas is not quite the same as freedom of movement.

Interesting point about drivers and 90-180 rule.
Probably covered as work?

Who knows? No doubt it will be clarified in due course.


----------



## Markd

barryd said:


> I wondered about this.  As it appears our government have done nothing or at least not much to prepare for having to deal with a massive amount of checks and red tape is the outgoing flow of traffic going to be far worse than the incoming?  I think they promised 3000-5000 new customs officers but have only recruited 16.  This suggests its going to be business as usual for incoming and no checks will be made but it wont be the case the other way around I am sure as the EU and the French will be keen to protect their single market.  The point being, there is going to be massive delays getting onto Ferries leaving the UK.  How will this effect none commercial traffic, as in us motorhomers?  Will there be a lane on the M20 open just for us or will we be stuck up the back of the Queue somewhere near the M25?


Don't forget the 50,000 new (or more accurately more than there would have been) nurses


----------



## Markd

trevskoda said:


> They only last 10 years and they stopped them here many years back, mainland must be different.


Paper lasts forever plastic must be renewed every 10 years - the secret is not moving!


----------



## trevskoda

Markd said:


> Paper lasts forever plastic must be renewed every 10 years - the secret is not moving!


WE had no choice here.


----------



## RoaminRog

Don’t forget, if you have the new plastic driving licence, the photo is only valid for ten years. After that you have to submit a fresh photo, or your licence becomes invalid.


----------



## mfw

Looks like some are having travel paperwork problems at heathrow with flights


----------



## mariesnowgoose

mfw said:


> Looks like some are having travel paperwork problems at heathrow with flights



Sorry, no sympathy. 

Unless you are travelling for *very* essential business you shouldn't be setting foot on an aircraft anywhere, and certainly not for leisure purposes just now.


----------



## mfw

mariesnowgoose said:


> Sorry, no sympathy.
> 
> Unless you are travelling for *very* essential business you shouldn't be setting foot on an aircraft anywhere, and certainly not for leisure purposes just now.


Quite agree problem is i'm getting rooted now and could really do with a larger pot cant see much on the horizon either


----------



## REC

The people having paperwork issues were returning residents who had been told they didn't need the new resident card just their older one. Officials got mixed messages and stopped them travelling home. It seems to have been clarified now, but cost some residents thousands in tests and rebooked flights.


----------



## Markd

Apparently it was Iberian Airlines that didn't know which bits of paper were acceptable.
But given that there's only been 4.5 years to prepare what do you expect?


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Markd said:


> Apparently it was Iberian Airlines that didn't know which bits of paper were acceptable.
> But given that there's only been 4.5 years to prepare what do you expect?



Yeah, but to be fair they weren't expecting a pandemic to be happening at the exact same time!


----------



## Markd

Didn't hear that is was anything to do with Covid19.
I'm any event pandemic has been running nearly a year and airlines have pretty well rehearsed procedures to check passengers.
Either way - hardly surprising I'm afraid.


----------



## REC

One good thing come out of the Spanish debacle...I have now applied for the biometric Portuguese card which replaces the EU resident certificate. Won't get it for months but have their " proof of application" which is accepted.


----------



## Pauljenny

REC said:


> One good thing come out of the Spanish debacle...I have now applied for the biometric Portuguese card which replaces the EU resident certificate. Won't get it for months but have their " proof of application" which is accepted.


I have it on good authority, that printing out each certificate and saving the QR code to your phone will be accepted, until you get the card.
The way lockdown is developing in our county Town, Tavira,
It could be a while before they'll allow face to face interviews..

And it'll be a longer while before we feel happy to go there.
It's now in " Extreme Risk ".

We'll be saving a fortune, by not buying cinema tickets.


----------



## mfw

Big difference between having a residency somewhere and just winging it on a campsite for a holiday/vacation but until problems start arising no one knows how bad things will become


----------



## REC

Pauljenny said:


> I have it on good authority, that printing out each certificate and saving the QR code to your phone will be accepted, until you get the card.
> The way lockdown is developing in our county Town, Tavira,
> It could be a while before they'll allow face to face interviews..
> 
> And it'll be a longer while before we feel happy to go there.
> It's now in " Extreme Risk ".
> 
> We'll be saving a fortune, by not buying cinema tickets.



Yes, have printed out the application acceptance certificate which has a AT code on it. My only issue is that the ***rd wrote Dave's Date of birth down wrong when we applied for residence ( taken from his passport!) So the new paperwork shows it wrongly....the man I spoke to said it will be adjusted when we go for the interview...just hope nobody compares the new form with his passport! The old one doesnt have that information on it so we had no idea it was wrong till we couldn't log on to the site using his d.o.b!


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Big difference between having a residency somewhere and just winging it on a campsite for a holiday/vacation but until problems start arising no one knows how bad things will become


"Winging it"? On this campsite, there are strict rules which are being followed rigidly by the much-reduced number who are here. There have been no confirmed cases on this site or the adjacent village and figures in the Province are as low as anywhere. We are not "winging it"; we are being sensible and feel safer here than we would be back in chaotic England.


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> "Winging it"? On this campsite, there are strict rules which are being followed rigidly by the much-reduced number who are here. There have been no confirmed cases on this site or the adjacent village and figures in the Province are as low as anywhere. We are not "winging it"; we are being sensible and feel safer here than we would be back in chaotic England.


Think you are safer there than here they reckon 1 in 50 have virus here - when and if it hits europe you could have big problems if you dont have residency - and you will have no option other than winging it which is why i used the term - and i always wing it when i go away with no plan other than head south


----------



## kenspain

Alicante area is also going into lockdown again getting really bad here but nothing is coming on the main news


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Think you are safer there than here they reckon 1 in 50 have virus here - when and if it hits europe you could have big problems if you dont have residency - and you will have no option other than winging it which is why i used the term - and i always wing it when i go away with no plan other than head south


We will stay here as long as they let us and the word is that when the Andalucia Junta meet tomorrow to decide the next move not a lot will change. But if things really do get bad and they kick us out (and they didn't during the first lockdown, which was much more severe than the current one) then we'll have to take our chances with the rest of you. No winging it involved - stay until we can't and then come home


----------



## mark61

John H said:


> We will stay here as long as they let us and the word is that when the Andalucia Junta meet tomorrow to decide the next move not a lot will change. But if things really do get bad and they kick us out (and they didn't during the first lockdown, which was much more severe than the current one) then we'll have to take our chances with the rest of you. No winging it involved - stay until we can't and then come home



Don't blame you at all. 
Would be doing the same if it wasn't for work.


----------



## witzend

John H said:


> We will stay here as long as they let us No winging it involved - stay until we can't and then come home


On tonites news You'll need to have a clear covid pass to enter UK


----------



## John H

witzend said:


> On tonites news You'll need to have a clear covid pass to enter UK


If we do then we'll get one


----------



## witzend

John H said:


> If we do then we'll get one


Keep your fingers crossed then several 1000's a day aren't getting a clear one


----------



## mariesnowgoose

witzend said:


> Keep your fingers crossed then several 1000's a day aren't getting one



To be fair I don't think John is in a mad rush to return to the UK any time soon.


----------



## REC

We aren't booked to come back for several months so the situation should have changed by then. Where we are in Portugal it is still very low, and we can stay longer, till it feels safe to return. Glad current rule is testing to go back, it makes sense.


----------



## QFour

REC said:


> We aren't booked to come back for several months so the situation should have changed by then. Where we are in Portugal it is still very low, and we can stay longer, till it feels safe to return. Glad current rule is testing to go back, it makes sense.



What happens with the 90 day rule. Surely you cannot just stay as long as you like unless you have EU passports. Authorities will surely look at 1st Jan as start of 90 day rule. Overstaying the 90 days in 180 could be very expensive and also lead to a ban from travelling.


----------



## mfw

No-one knows but your right with worst case scenario escorted to airport put on plane forced to put van in storage until you can again collect it could cost a small fortune


----------



## John H

QFour said:


> What happens with the 90 day rule. Surely you cannot just stay as long as you like unless you have EU passports. Authorities will surely look at 1st Jan as start of 90 day rule. Overstaying the 90 days in 180 could be very expensive and also lead to a ban from travelling.



If you test positive and are not allowed to travel, that counts as a "force majeure" (exceptional circumstance beyond your control) and that is one of the stated conditions in which you are allowed to overstay the 90 days.


----------



## QFour

John H said:


> If you test positive and are not allowed to travel, that counts as a "force majeure" (exceptional circumstance beyond your control) and that is one of the stated conditions in which you are allowed to overstay the 90 days.



This would only apply if you caught the virus. You cannot just continue travelling around. Hate to think how you argue that one out at the French border into the Uk. You are going to need a shed load of documentation to prove you could not travel which could be in Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, Greek or French


----------



## 2cv

People have been able to dodge the 72 hour test applied to travellers by air when travelling from UK but this loophole is now being closed. In the original lockdowns in March the repatriation by air scenario was mooted in Spain but never enacted.


----------



## REC

QFour said:


> What happens with the 90 day rule. Surely you cannot just stay as long as you like unless you have EU passports. Authorities will surely look at 1st Jan as start of 90 day rule. Overstaying the 90 days in 180 could be very expensive and also lead to a ban from travelling.


we have residence in Portugal so can stay here as long as we want. Just outside Portugal limited to Schengen rules.
Maybe you need to read the whole thread as this has already been stated several times? Not just " travelling round"


----------



## John H

QFour said:


> This would only apply if you caught the virus. You cannot just continue travelling around. Hate to think how you argue that one out at the French border into the Uk. You are going to need a shed load of documentation to prove you could not travel which could be in Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, Greek or French


If you read my post I started it by saying "if you test positive" which covers everything you say.


----------



## REC

If one was driving back from Portugal / Spain we would need a test done in France to fulfil the 72hrs criteria. If tested positive, wonder how that would be dealt with...we would have to remain in van in France at the border?
Obviously the 90 day rule would be suspended but the logistics of staying could be interesting. We will, if the test is still required on our return, isolate completely for at least ten days before we leave, and the isolation would continue on the journey so shouldn't be a problem for us. But others may not do that.


----------



## 2cv

I found this today which gives much detail about EHIC and GHIC. Link


----------



## John H

REC said:


> If one was driving back from Portugal / Spain we would need a test done in France to fulfil the 72hrs criteria. If tested positive, wonder how that would be dealt with...we would have to remain in van in France at the border?
> Obviously the 90 day rule would be suspended but the logistics of staying could be interesting. We will, if the test is still required on our return, isolate completely for at least ten days before we leave, and the isolation would continue on the journey so shouldn't be a problem for us. But others may not do that.


I am assuming that if you test positive but are asymptomatic then you have to isolate for 10 days and then have another test; if you test positive and have symptoms, you may need hospital treatment - but if we do test positive when leaving at the end of March, I also assume that the test centre will advise us on what to do. Like you, we intend to self-isolate prior to travelling north and so should test negative.

Some friends of ours had problems on the way out here because Spain insisted on a negative test 72 hours before arrival, which was a tight squeeze on a two night ferry! They resorted to coming via France instead. The good news about the UK test is that they seem to be asking for it to be taken 72 hours before departure, which makes life very much easier. If they later change that to arrival, we may have to change the ferry and go via France.


----------



## number14

Decided to make my own. Probably not legal though but I don't care because I'm suffering from lockdown fatigue


number14 said:


> I was hoping you could have a Welsh flag with GB underneath but it seems this is not a legal combination and neither, of course, is the Welsh flag with CYM (Cymru)


----------



## REC

John H said:


> I am assuming that if you test positive but are asymptomatic then you have to isolate for 10 days and then have another test; if you test positive and have symptoms, you may need hospital treatment - but if we do test positive when leaving at the end of March, I also assume that the test centre will advise us on what to do. Like you, we intend to self-isolate prior to travelling north and so should test negative.
> 
> Some friends of ours had problems on the way out here because Spain insisted on a negative test 72 hours before arrival, which was a tight squeeze on a two night ferry! They resorted to coming via France instead. The good news about the UK test is that they seem to be asking for it to be taken 72 hours before departure, which makes life very much easier. If they later change that to arrival, we may have to change the ferry and go via France.


My slight concern is that I would have to find somewhere ensure to be tested as three days might be cutting it fine from here....having to get it done and get result back before leaving. Might have to stop in Spain and get an overnight one done then get on our way to the tunnel pronto! Hopefully it may not be an issue but I like to plan! Of course we could just stay until June!    And hope at least an organised list of places to be tested, ( a bit like the Calais vets!!)


----------



## Markd

Journey started before 1-1-21 can be indefinite.


----------



## jagmanx

REC said:


> If one was driving back from Portugal / Spain we would need a test done in France to fulfil the 72hrs criteria. If tested positive, wonder how that would be dealt with...we would have to remain in van in France at the border?
> Obviously the 90 day rule would be suspended but the logistics of staying could be interesting. We will, if the test is still required on our return, isolate completely for at least ten days before we leave, and the isolation would continue on Germant the journey so shouldn't be a problem for us. But others may not do that.


Ruth, your post has prompted me to consider similar problems if you want to do even a mini-tour of Europe.
I suspect (and recent moves by many countries imply) that a Fit to Travel document (ie a covid test) will often be needed.
So for those statring from UK such a document will be needed to cross the channel.
So you are in France and could tour France for up to 90 days and get a "French Covid Test" done to allow return to UK.
BUT what if you want to venture into Spain after say 1 month ? Would you need a test ? and again when returning to France after say a month ?
Early days yet but what if you have had the vaccine (& certificate) would that allow you to "bypass the test" ..I suspect not !

Even worse what if you plan to go to Scandinavia driving via France Belgium Germany and then crossing borders within Scandinavia
Much too early for any answers but unpleasant food for thought.
Maybe Ruth will be ok with a Fit to Travel test in Portugal to get them into Spain and then (just) into France..With another test for returning to UK

What happens if one of a couple fail a test ? but are otherwise able to travel (ie not too ill)
I feel a migraine coming on !!!!


----------



## mariesnowgoose

jagmanx said:


> Ruth, your post has prompted me to consider similar problems if you want to do even a mini-tour of Europe.
> I suspect (and recent moves by many countries imply) that a Fit to Travel document (ie a covid test) will often be needed.
> So for those statring from UK such a document will be needed to cross the channel.
> So you are in France and could tour France for up to 90 days and get a "French Covid Test" done to allow return to UK.
> BUT what if you want to venture into Spain after say 1 month ? Would you need a test ? and again when returning to France after say a month ?
> Early days yet but what if you have had the vaccine (& certificate) would that allow you to "bypass the test" ..I suspect not !
> 
> Even worse what if you plan to go to Scandinavia driving via France Belgium Germany and then crossing borders within Scandinavia
> Much too early for any answers but unpleasant food for thought.
> Maybe Ruth will be ok with a Fit to Travel test in Portugal to get them into Spain and then (just) into France..With another test for returning to UK
> 
> What happens if one of a couple fail a test ? but are otherwise able to travel (ie not too ill)
> I feel a migraine coming on !!!!



I think the pragmatic answer would be not to travel (unless absolutely essential/unavoidable), at least until things settle down and we can see a working path ahead for everyone?


----------



## John H

REC said:


> My slight concern is that I would have to find somewhere ensure to be tested as three days might be cutting it fine from here....having to get it done and get result back before leaving. Might have to stop in Spain and get an overnight one done then get on our way to the tunnel pronto! Hopefully it may not be an issue but I like to plan! Of course we could just stay until June!    And hope at least an organised list of places to be tested, ( a bit like the Calais vets!!)


I don't know but I assume that there will be places to get tested close to the ferry/tunnel, which means that time will not be a problem. We are booked from Bilbao at the end of March and when it gets close to the time, I will get Reception at the campsite to phone up and book us in so that language isn't a problem. Mind you, by then the world could be a very different place!


----------



## John H

Markd said:


> Journey started before 1-1-21 can be indefinite.


???


----------



## jagmanx

Yes as time goes on testing facilties will exist..a good earner !


----------



## REC

jagmanx said:


> Yes as time goes on testing facilties will exist..a good earner !


Always new ways to make money for entrepreneurs!!
I am sure by the time we are thinking of going back, there will be something organised and @jagmanx  concerns will be dealt with! At least I hope so. Being away so long increases the risk that something ( someone) in UK will need us and we are always aware that we may have to dash back, but no point trying to forsee too far into the future....don't know about migraine, might end up with meltdown!


----------



## jagmanx

Yep, time will ease things (probably).
We hope you will not need an unsceduled return to UK.. No real prospect of a jab here for many months.
Maybe Uk and a jab in May.
Patience needed...but we seem ol here.
Just got back from a local market...Sanitiser, no mask = no entry. They record tel nos as well !


----------



## 2cv

Aircrew have been taking these tests regularly for nearly a year now, depending on their destination. They are certainly not infallible tests and after a negative test before departure a few have subsequently failed a test on arrival at their destination with unpleasant consequences. In some places even after passing the second test on arrival they are taken to a nearby hotel where their room key works once only to ensure that they remain in the room for the duration of the stay with food being delivered to the room.
As far as any passengers go most destinations seem to put any arrival failures in quarantine in a hotel at their own expense.


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> As far as any passengers go most destinations seem to put any arrival failures in quarantine in a hotel at their own expense.


As long as they put us in a hotel with a good restaurant/bar and internet, that will suit me fine!


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> As long as they put us in a hotel with a good restaurant/bar and internet, that will suit me fine!



As long as there are enough hotels still in business for you to quarantine in when/if you return, especially back here in the UK  

May get to the point where you have to stay where you're told to and no luxury of choice.


----------



## 2cv

Certainly many hotels are after the business. Link


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> As long as there are enough hotels still in business for you to quarantine in when/if you return, especially back here in the UK
> 
> May get to the point where you have to stay where you're told to and no luxury of choice.


I think 2cv is right - I am constantly plagued by e-mails from hotels telling me of their latest bargains (same goes for airlines). They seem desperate for business.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> I think 2cv is right - I am constantly plagued by e-mails from hotels telling me of their latest bargains (same goes for airlines). They seem desperate for business.



They are. Which is why I'm saying that we don't yet know what is round the corner with the continuation of this virus.
The vaccines are one thing, but the ability for many hospitality businesses in the UK to ride out the storm longer term is quite another.

It all depends on how quickly things can get turned around.

Good to stay optimistic though


----------



## Markd

John H said:


> ???


I was responding to REC's post about staying for a few months and QFour's query about not being able to do more than 90 days.
I understood ithat if you were already in EU at end of transition you can stay as long as you want.
However I can't now find anything to confirm that


----------



## John H

Markd said:


> I was responding to REC's post about staying for a few months and QFour's query about not being able to do more than 90 days.
> I understood ithat if you were already in EU at end of transition you can stay as long as you want.
> However I can't now find anything to confirm that



Afraid not - we are booked on a ferry at the end of March because the 90 day rule kicked in on January 1st. What may be misleading you is that, in the event of no-deal,  EHIC would be honoured for the length of your stay provided you arrived before January 1st. Now they have got a deal (of sorts!) EHIC is valid for all up until the expiry date.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Markd said:


> I was responding to REC's post about staying for a few months and QFour's query about not being able to do more than 90 days.
> I understood ithat if you were already in EU at end of transition you can stay as long as you want.
> However I can't now find anything to confirm that



I would imagine the change in legislation will catch up with everyone eventually, regardless of before/after transition period? 

Only exception I can rationally think of for being able to do more than 90 days would be if you have residency status in the country you are staying in?


----------



## Markd

That was probably it - there was so much going on in the last few weeks.


----------



## jagmanx

mariesnowgoose said:


> I would imagine the change in legislation will catch up with everyone eventually, regardless of before/after transition period?
> 
> Only exception I can rationally think of for being able to do more than 90 days would be if you have residency status in the country you are staying in?


That is the situation for @REC


----------



## izwozral

Just a daft question. Are you normally bearded John?


----------



## John H

izwozral said:


> Just a daft question. Are you normally bearded John?


Yes. Now waiting for the punch line!


----------



## REC

Some countries (e g.  New Zealand) are using the hotels for " managed isolation" seems like a better idea than leaving people on trust. Even if the occupants pay a minimal amount, hotels are in business and isolation is completed properly.


----------



## mfw

Trouble with whatever travel problems people may or may not have you wont know till the end of march anyway - easier if you have no additional responsibilities - 90 day insurance green card which some may have


----------



## REC

Surprisingly, my green card has no time limit on it. They knew we would be longer than 90 days abroad. Maybe if you are legitimate the insurance is too?


----------



## jacquigem

If you have told the insurers your plans and they have accepted the risk then you should be ok .Keep records of all correspondence in case Ombudsman needs to get involved !


----------



## John H

jacquigem said:


> If you have told the insurers your plans and they have accepted the risk then you should be ok .Keep records of all correspondence in case Ombudsman needs to get involved !


That is precisely what we did.


----------



## REC

We took insurance which covers us for 180 daysin EU and, when I rang I gave the dates we were booked for and also said covid might delay our return. No mention from them of the 90 days rule. We can stay with our van for 180 days then would have to matriculate it to be legal here.


----------



## Markd

REC said:


> Some countries (e g.  New Zealand) are using the hotels for " managed isolation" seems like a better idea than leaving people on trust. Even if the occupants pay a minimal amount, hotels are in business and isolation is completed properly.


The daughter and son in law of some friends have just gone to Australia with their 2 year old for his work.
They were escorted to their quarantine hotel by the police and can expect ad hoc checks for the next couple of weeks.
No subsidy from the state for the accommodation - I think that if they'd had a house to go to they could have used that.
Maybe we should have done something similar?


----------



## colinm

A friend of mine who has dual citizenship went to NZ in autumn, he had to go into a managed isolation hotel for couple of weeks. He will come back once CV-19 has receded a bit, maybe next summer.


----------



## Markd

2022??


----------



## colinm

Markd said:


> 2022??


That would be summer 2021, which is the next summer we will be having, although Chris Whitty (or was it one of the other government officers) said we may well have restrictions next winter, so don't expect CV-19 to disappear anytime soon.


----------



## Markd

One should be hopeful I suppose.


----------



## 2cv

Covid test required for UK arrivals from Friday. Link


----------



## Annsman

mfw said:


> No worries what is worst they could do - probably only arrest you take you to airport and force you to fly back leaving van where it is until you can collect it again


In that case your insurance might not cover it, unless you inform them. Read the t&c’s about leaving your van unattended.


----------



## Annsman

The EU border guards are now checking what foodstuffs you take with you. Meat, dairy, fish and some processed foods are now banned from being taken from the UK to EU. They are confiscating any banned stuff. There are exceptions for baby foods and some pet food. I know we can’t go anyway for now, but it’s worth making a note for when we can.


----------



## Markd

2cv said:


> Covid test required for UK arrivals from Friday. Link


About time!


----------



## Markd

Annsman said:


> The EU border guards are now checking what foodstuffs you take with you. Meat, dairy, fish and some processed foods are now banned from being taken from the UK to EU. They are confiscating any banned stuff. There are exceptions for baby foods and some pet food. I know we can’t go anyway for now, but it’s worth making a note for when we can.


I guess they've got plenty of time at the moment - I wonder whether they'll be so rigorous when volumes return to normal?


----------



## Snapster

I don’t see why that would change in the future. The rules say you can’t take those items into the EU, so why would they relax the rules later? Customs / Border Control people never seem in a hurry to rush people through.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

What I want to know is this:-

Have they always checked the foodstuffs that people from *other* non-EU countries have brought with them when travelling into any of the EU member states? 

i.e. is this a completely new rule and does it just apply to "ham and cheese sandwiches" from the UK? 

If you're coming in from China, Australia or anywhere else in the world, do they check what foodstuffs those travellers have brought with them for personal consumption?

Does seem slightly insane....


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> What I want to know is this:-
> 
> Have they always checked the foodstuffs that people from *other* non-EU countries have brought with them when travelling into any of the EU member states?
> 
> i.e. is this a completely new rule and does it just apply to "ham and cheese sandwiches" from the UK?
> 
> If you're coming in from China, Australia or anywhere else in the world, do they check what foodstuffs those travellers have brought with them for personal consumption?
> 
> Does seem slightly insane....


Not a new rule - it has been the rule for all non-EU countries for a long time. And not insane either - the EU wants to control what is coming into its borders from regions over which it has no control. Not unique either - have you ever tried to get into Australia with an apple?


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> Not a new rule - it has been the rule for all non-EU countries for a long time. And not insane either - the EU wants to control what is coming into its borders from regions over which it has no control. Nit unique either - have you ever tried to get into Australia with an apple?



Thank you. I only said insane because we are all just the other side of the B word so everyone is adjusting to the new rules for the UK and interactions with EU countries.

I won't get into the subject too much, else we'll be heading for deep water and getting posts pulled (or at least I will!).

Guess those who are feeling put out because they can no longer take some their favourite foodstuffs with them when crossing the Channel will just have to grin and bear it. Not such a massive hardship in the scheme of things? Especially right now!

Like I said elsewhere, eating food products of the country I'm visiting is one of the delights of travelling, so would be no hardship for me.
Reminds me of all those ex-pats who never taste the local cuisine.... they don't know what they're missing...


----------



## REC

mariesnowgoose said:


> Thank you. I only said insane because we are all just the other side of the B word so everyone is adjusting to the new rules for the UK and interactions with EU countries.
> 
> I won't get into the subject too much, else we'll be heading for deep water and getting posts pulled (or at least I will!).
> 
> Guess those who are feeling put out because they can no longer take some their favourite foodstuffs with them when crossing the Channel will just have to grin and bear it. Not such a massive hardship in the scheme of things? Especially right now!
> 
> Like I said elsewhere, eating food products of the country I'm visiting is one of the delights of travelling, so would be no hardship for me.
> Reminds me of all those ex-pats who never taste the local cuisine.... they don't know what they're missing...


I definitely feel aggrieved, as we often go through late evening, stop close to calais, then have a good run the next day. Will have to stop for food shopping now, which is a real pain. And, although local cuisine is great, there are odd things which you hanker for when away a long while. Will have to stick with powdered milk, tinned foods ...no real hardship just another niggle. As you say, in the scheme of things, not massive. Pinning my hopes on common sense breaking through and these irritations being sorted.....eventually!


----------



## Snapster

The rules for entering the EU from 3rd countries hasn’t changed, but, it may be that because the UK has only just left, and many people still seem to think that the UK is a special case and rules don’t apply to them, people are being stopped and checked and these ham sandwiches are being found.
Of course, other 3rd countries will have always had to abide by the rules, so they ( mostly) know the score.
The rules will not be relaxed unless there is new legislation, so people should get used to complying with what is in force now.
I’m pretty sure a huge proportion of people in the UK knew this and other often discussed restrictions were coming anyway.

_“If you travel to the EU from a non-EU country, *you are not allowed to bring any meat or dairy products*with you.  You can however bring a limited quantity of fruit and vegetables as well as eggs, egg products and honey.  Restricted quantities of fish or fish products are also allowed_


----------



## mark61

Haven't been asked about food coming back from Morocco or Tunisia.


----------



## John H

REC said:


> I definitely feel aggrieved, as we often go through late evening, stop close to calais, then have a good run the next day. Will have to stop for food shopping now, which is a real pain. And, although local cuisine is great, there are odd things which you hanker for when away a long while. Will have to stick with powdered milk, tinned foods ...no real hardship just another niggle. As you say, in the scheme of things, not massive. Pinning my hopes on common sense breaking through and these irritations being sorted.....eventually!


The rule applies to meat and milk and their products, so we can still take things like marmite! As for common sense, well it seems to me that it is common sense. No country willingly allows in potential disease and if you don't have any control over the means of production then you cannot be sure whether the product is carrying disease or not.

Having said that, there will always be anomalies. I once bought an apple on Easter Island. Easter Island is part of Chile and does not grow apples. That apple came from mainland Chile. When I tried to take it on the plane to mainland Chile I was stopped because apples are not allowed into Chile!


----------



## Snapster

mariesnowgoose said:


> What I want to know is this:-
> 
> Have they always checked the foodstuffs that people from *other* non-EU countries have brought with them when travelling into any of the EU member states?
> ..............
> If you're coming in from China, Australia or anywhere else in the world, do they check what foodstuffs those travellers have brought with them for personal consumption?
> 
> Does seem slightly insane....



If you’ve ever flown to America, Asia or Australasia, or into the EU from outside the EU, you have to sign a declaration stating you have non of their banned items and foodstuffs. ( including ham sandwiches!)

Maybe ferry companies and Eurotunnel should insist you sign one of these disclaimers before you disembark ( or do they anyway? )  so you know what you are entitled to carry and won’t be caught out.


----------



## John H

Snapster said:


> If you’ve ever flown to America, Asia or Australasia, or into the EU from outside the EU, you have to sign a declaration stating you have non of their banned items and foodstuffs. ( including ham sandwiches!)
> 
> Maybe ferry companies and Eurotunnel should insist you sign one of these disclaimers before you disembark ( or do they anyway? )  so you know what you are entitled to carry and won’t be caught out.


I have signed such declarations many times and always read them carefully. However, I have seen others just sign them without reading them. You can bet your life that they will be the first to make a fuss when they are pulled up for importing stuff they shouldn't have!


----------



## Snapster

mark61 said:


> Haven't been asked about food coming back from Morocco or Tunisia.


Do Spain and Morocco ( and Tunisia) have an agreement on   what you can and can’t take across the borders?


----------



## John H

The rules about meat and dairy products are the same for every non-EU country, including Morocco. Some people may have got through without being checked (customs officials never check everybody, whichever country you are entering) but it is probably not a wise thing to do - and remember that claiming you didn't know is no excuse. The rules are there for everybody to read if they choose to.


----------



## mark61

John H said:


> The rules about meat and dairy products are the same for every non-EU country, including Morocco. Some people may have got through without being checked (customs officials never check everybody, whichever country you are entering) but it is probably not a wise thing to do - and remember that claiming you didn't know is no excuse. The rules are there for everybody to read if they choose to.


 
Very true, although in my experience the chances of getting across to mainland Spain on the Ceuta crossing without having a dog in your van are virtually zero. Obviously they ain't sniffing out ham or cheese though.


----------



## mariesnowgoose




----------



## antiquesam

I can remember being asked if I was carrying meat or dairy products into the UK pre EU membership. It's not that things are changing, just that they are reverting to what happened before. Unfortunately it's only old fogies like me that can remember that far back.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

antiquesam said:


> I can remember being asked if I was carrying meat or dairy products into the UK pre EU membership. It's not that things are changing, just that they are reverting to what happened before. Unfortunately it's only old fogies like me that can remember that far back.



Ditto.

Only maybe not *quite* as old ...


----------



## mfw

It's the baccy that concerns me now gonna cost an arm and a leg


----------



## mark61

Even on the rare occasion you get stopped going into Switzerland, they'll ask if you have meat etc.

Don't remember ever being stopped on the way out though.


----------



## mfw

Maybe Bradley and barney walsh could turn it into a bit of lighthearted comedy


----------



## Biggarmac

During the last foot & mouth outbreak we were in Spain when it started.  Everyone who came over the Portsmouth to Santander ferry had any meat confiscated.  That included danish bacon in sealed packets.


----------



## TJBi

REC said:


> I definitely feel aggrieved, as we often go through late evening, stop close to calais, then have a good run the next day. Will have to stop for food shopping now, which is a real pain. And, although local cuisine is great, there are odd things which you hanker for when away a long while. Will have to stick with powdered milk, tinned foods ...no real hardship just another niggle. As you say, in the scheme of things, not massive. Pinning my hopes on common sense breaking through and these irritations being sorted.....eventually!


Just watch what's in the cans... And bear in mind that only powdered BABY milk is exempt.


----------



## Markd

mariesnowgoose said:


> I won't get into the subject too much, else we'll be heading for deep water and getting posts pulled (or at least I will!).


Doesn't take much to get posts censored - any mention of why this is happening seems to be enough


----------



## 2cv

With very slow vaccination rates in Europe and tourist dependent areas very keen to promote travel it would appear that ‘vaccination passports’ are being considered again, possibly making travel around the EU possible by the Summer for those who are vaccinated. Link


----------



## number14

If I were a betting man I would say it will be almost inevitable that some form of vaccination proof will eventually be required to travel around the EU. Maybe even required to access public areas within the UK. I'm OK with that as long as it is not an 'app' that can be used to track movements for other nefarious purposes.
Sorry to be vague about this, but I did read somewhere that the Welsh Government are issuing a card stating one's vaccination status.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

number14 said:


> If I were a betting man I would say it will be almost inevitable that some form of vaccination proof will eventually be required to travel around the EU. Maybe even required to access public areas within the UK. I'm OK with that as long as it is not an 'app' that can be used to track movements for other nefarious purposes.
> Sorry to be vague about this, but I did read somewhere that the Welsh Government are issuing a card stating one's vaccination status.



Maybe it won't be as bad as we think.
The reason would be to protect public health after all.

You already need proof of vaccination for other diseases before travelling to some parts of the world where those diseases are still a threat - yellow fever, typhoid, etc. etc.

I agree with you about the app side. Don't particularly trust big tech, never have.


----------



## mark61

Great stuff.
Does that mean I can stop me ex Mrs, who has lupus,  coming round and annoying me.   

Mixed messages at the moment as to if she should have the vaccine.


----------



## mfw

mariesnowgoose said:


> Maybe it won't be as bad as we think.
> The reason would be to protect public health after all.
> 
> You already need proof of vaccination for other diseases before travelling to some parts of the world where those diseases are still a threat - yellow fever, typhoid, etc. etc.
> 
> I agree with you about the app side. Don't particularly trust big tech, never have.


It's worse than i was expecting now - so i'm gonna carry on keeping my head down and hope it passes over me


----------



## maingate

It has been clearly stated today that there will be no vaccination passport. Watch BBC News tonight for confirmation.


----------



## witzend

number14 said:


> If I were a betting man I would say it will be almost inevitable that some form of vaccination proof will eventually be required to travel around the EU. Maybe even required to access public areas within the UK. I'm OK with that as long as it is not an 'app' that can be used to track movements for other nefarious purposes.
> Sorry to be vague about this, but I did read somewhere that the Welsh Government are issuing a card stating one's vaccination status.


I read about the Welsh Card as well and will be happy to receive one here
 But what will it prove just that You've been Vaccinated  Not that Your not carrying it even when you've had the Jab You can still carry and spread it


----------



## Markd

I've just seen a little old lady in a care home being given her passport - or was it just a sticker for her cardi?


----------



## witzend

Markd said:


> I've just seen a little old lady in a care home being given her passport - or was it just a sticker for her cardi?


They do give a card or letter  saying what vaccine you had and when you should get the booster


----------



## 2cv

The requirement for a negative test has been put back till Monday. Link


----------



## mfw

Portugal is banned to travel to uk now


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Portugal is banned to travel to uk now


Grant Shapps has specifically said that the ban does not apply to UK nationals returning to their homes in the UK (and not to hauliers either).


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> Grant Shapps has specifically said that the ban does not apply to UK nationals returning to their homes in the UK (and not to hauliers either).


Wouldn't bet on it there is a sh#tstorm coming in - look how it's going with the different virus mutations around the world


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Wouldn't bet on it there is a sh#tstorm coming in - look how it's going with the different virus mutations around the world


As I have said before, no Government in the civilised world has ever refused to allow its own law-abiding citizens to return home.


----------



## 2cv

John H said:


> As I have said before, no Government in the civilised world has ever refused to allow its own law-abiding citizens to return home.



I’m certain that UK citizens will be allowed to return. It may be that as elsewhere the quarantine requirements are stepped up, requiring the returning citizen to stay in a specified hotel room for 5 to 10 days. If they are serious about keeping the mutant virus out this does seem sensible.


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> As I have said before, no Government in the civilised world has ever refused to allow its own law-abiding citizens to return home.


A lot may have to hope they can drive back or leave van and fly - my concern would be doing something against gov advice like any advise when it goes pear shaped your choice you pay consequences

Bottom line is no-one know how many problems it will cause until they try getting back it is a total mess already


----------



## TonyEmm

number14 said:


> I was hoping you could have a Welsh flag with GB underneath but it seems this is not a legal combination and neither, of course, is the Welsh flag with CYM (Cymru)


That would be no more legal than having the English flag or the Scottish flag....


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> I’m certain that UK citizens will be allowed to return. It may be that as elsewhere the quarantine requirements are stepped up, requiring the returning citizen to stay in a specified hotel room for 5 to 10 days. If they are serious about keeping the mutant virus out this does seem sensible.


I agree - I have no problem with being in isolation when we eventually do return. In fact, even if there wasn't a requirement to do so, we would still isolate - as any sensible person would when coming from an area with a low infection rate back to an area with a high one!


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> A lot may have to hope they can drive back or leave van and fly - my concern would be doing something against gov advice like any advise when it goes pear shaped your choice you pay consequences
> 
> Bottom line is no-one know how many problems it will cause until they try getting back it is a total mess already


The Government are not advising Brits abroad to return immediately, so we will obey their advice and stay here!


----------



## witzend

TonyEmm said:


> That would be no more legal than having the English flag or the Scottish flag....




Secretary Grant Shapps tweeted that if you have GB on your number plate alongside a union flag (as opposed to an EU flag) then you won't need a sticker in most EU countries.

copied from here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47459859

https://tinyurl.com/ycof5q7b got mine here arrived in 24 hrs


----------



## REC

Our gb sticker is miniscule, more of a nod to the rule! Doesn't state size anywhere, I hope!


----------



## Fazerloz

I will just put a GB sticker on, its less hassle than maybe having to argue the toss at the side of the road with foreign police, were there will be only one winner.


----------



## RoaminRog

The Holiday Inn at Folkestone are offering a walk in service for rapid covid testing, sadly Macron must have heard about it;
Meanwhile, France has cracked down on the type of tests that travellers can take to show they are negative.


From Monday, travellers will need to show a negative PCR test. Antigen tests - which are the rapid lateral flow tests - will no longer be accepted.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

RoaminRog said:


> The Holiday Inn at Folkestone are offering a walk in service for rapid covid testing, sadly Macron must have heard about it;
> Meanwhile, France has cracked down on the type of tests that travellers can take to show they are negative.
> 
> 
> From Monday, travellers will need to show a negative PCR test. *Antigen tests - which are the rapid lateral flow tests - will no longer be accepted*.



Quite right too.

Whilst you might think @mfw is being pessimistic, I agree that none of us know where this world catastrophe is heading.

Any discussion about freedom of movement between countries right now is speculative, because the rules can (and will !) change on a sixpence.


----------



## Snapster

France is extending the curfew, from Saturday it will be 6pm to 6 am. Apparently, the infection rate is slowing in areas where they brought in the earlier curfew so it’s being extended all over the country now.
It can only be a good thing. Vaccinations for over 75’s is starting here next week, shouldn’t be long before it gets to us. ( under 75’s )


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> The Government are not advising Brits abroad to return immediately, so we will obey their advice and stay here!



No but they advised not to travel in first place unless essential - cant really see going on holiday as essential travel


----------



## mark61

mfw said:


> No but they advised not to travel in first place unless essential - cant really see going on holiday as essential travel


There was a period when non essential travel was allowed.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

mark61 said:


> There was a period when non essential travel was allowed.



I would argue that paying someone £40k to travel abroad and get to the head of the queue for a vaccine jab should also be classed as non-essential travel

 

Sheesh, I'm gonna have to start being careful here....


----------



## mariesnowgoose

mark61 said:


> There was a period when non essential travel was allowed.



Yup. But I'm sure there were a fair few of us at the time that questioned the rationality of being able to do so.

A couple who lived round the corner from us would now agree - in hindsight.

They went off on a 2 week package holiday to Greece after 1st lockdown lifted, contracted C-19 while there, came home and subsequently died.

Too many people still feel they're entitled to do this and that, or are under the illusion it will never happen to them.

Even when the govt. "allows" you to do some things, I will continue to rely on my own common sense rather than follow the herd


----------



## mark61

Pay me £40K I'll drive over to India and bring some vaccine back.


----------



## antiquesam

mariesnowgoose said:


> Yup. But I'm sure there were a fair few of us at the time that questioned the rationality of being able to do so.
> 
> A couple who lived round the corner from us would now agree - in hindsight.
> 
> They went off on a 2 week package holiday to Greece after 1st lockdown lifted, contracted C-19 while there, came home and subsequently died.
> 
> Too many people still feel they're entitled to do this and that, or are under the illusion it will never happen to them.
> 
> Even when the govt. "allows" you to do some things, I will continue to rely on my own common sense rather than follow the herd


Is it only your opinion that they regret it? Some of us would be happy to risk our lives to get away for a while and I don't suppose you got the chance to ask them


----------



## mfw

mark61 said:


> There was a period when non essential travel was allowed.


The advise was not to travel i didn't say it wasn't allowed - but my view is still to prepare for worst case and hopefully it wont get worse - which in my view it has since november - and i am also looking at it from the uk independance side - the whole lot together is double trouble


----------



## John H

There is a distinct undertone (or even overtone!) here that those of us who are overwintering in the sun are being either selfish or irresponsible or both. Firstly, we are not on holiday; we are living in the same way as we would at home only in a warmer, healthier and safer environment. We are far less likely to either contract the virus or to pass it on than at home because we are living most of the time in the open air and the virus transmits far less easily in the open air. We are also far less likely to be a strain on the health service (I have said before, only half in joke, that I think overwintering in the sun ought to be available on the NHS!). In addition, the rules here in Spain are far clearer than they appear to be in the UK and are universally followed in this particular area. And finally, I checked very carefully with all the relevant authorities whether we were allowed to travel here back in September, when we left home. I have followed ALL the advice given at the time.

PS when we do eventually return, it will be with a certificate to show that we are negative for the virus and we will isolate anyway, so anyone fearing that we might be a danger to the indigenous population is probably wrong


----------



## 2cv

The FCO advice against travel to Spain originated on 14th March 2020 Link and whilst amended from time to time has not changed. It is only advice however, though may have some effect on insurance and until recently such travel was not illegal.


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> The FCO advice against travel to Spain originated on 14th March 2020 Link and whilst amended from time to time has not changed. It is only advice however, though may have some effect on insurance and until recently such travel was not illegal.


That link also says that anyone thinking of travelling should check with their travel organisers. We did that, we checked with EHIC and we checked with our vehicle insurance providers. All said that we would be legal and covered.


----------



## RoaminRog

_Taken from Gov.uk
From 18 January, only PCR tests will be accepted for passengers. For hauliers, current testing measures at the border remain unchanged. You should not use the NHS testing service to get a test in order to facilitate your travel to another country. You should arrange to take a private test. A list of private providers of coronavirus testing is available here. *Passengers arriving in France from the UK will also be required to self-isolate for seven days on arrival, *before taking another PCR test. Exit from self-isolation period is subject to a negative test result. Please find more information on how to obtain a PCR test in France here.
So we have to take a PCR test on this side of the Channel, and wait perhaps 48 hours before we are allowed to cross, and then we have to self-isolate for seven days and then take another PCR test, and wait another 48 hours before we are allowed to travel?_


----------



## trevskoda

mariesnowgoose said:


> Quite right too.
> 
> Whilst you might think @mfw is being pessimistic, I agree that none of us know where this world catastrophe is heading.
> 
> Any discussion about freedom of movement between countries right now is speculative, because the rules can (and will !) change on a sixpence.


Marie just unplug the van censor and do as in these instructions and all will be fine.


----------



## witzend

Fazerloz said:


> I will just put a GB sticker on, its less hassle than maybe having to argue the toss at the side of the road with foreign police, were there will be only one winner.


I assumed you need now to cover the EU flag as well why I bought the stickers


REC said:


> Our gb sticker is miniscule, more of a nod to the rule! Doesn't state size anywhere, I hope!


There is size mentioned 150 x 120 mm but check this


----------



## witzend

mariesnowgoose said:


> A couple who lived round the corner from us would now agree - in hindsight.
> They went off on a 2 week package holiday to Greece after 1st lockdown lifted, contracted C-19 while there, came home and subsequently died.
> Too many people still feel they're entitled to do this and that, or are under the illusion it will never happen to them.





antiquesam said:


> Is it only your opinion that they regret it? Some of us would be happy to risk our lives to get away for a while


I'd bet Maries right though. there'd not be many sensible people gambling their life just to take a 2 week holiday


----------



## 2cv

2cv said:


> I’m certain that UK citizens will be allowed to return. It may be that as elsewhere the quarantine requirements are stepped up, requiring the returning citizen to stay in a specified hotel room for 5 to 10 days. If they are serious about keeping the mutant virus out this does seem sensible.



Actually, maybe it’s not always easy to return home. Link


----------



## mfw

I think people will get home if they fly and then just put motorhome into storage in spain - whatever it entails/costs - and hopefully they can get back to the van after 90 days - cant see france allowing people to travel through the whole country possibly spreading virus considering there may or maynot be options of flights - but that is what i'd be thinking now for worst case scenario - cant get worse than that surely


----------



## Snapster

antiquesam said:


> Is it only your opinion that they regret it? *Some of us would be happy to risk our lives to get away for a while *and I don't suppose you got the chance to ask them


And that’s exactly how the virus has spread across the world.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

trevskoda said:


> Marie just unplug the van censor and do as in these instructions and all will be fine.View attachment 91270



Thanks for the advice, Trev. 

I'll get me patchouli and sandalwood incense burners going shall I? 
They should do the trick!  

The house will smell nice (debatable!  ) while I wait for my vaccine appt, like the good little 21st century atheist I am


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> I think people will get home if they fly and then just put motorhome into storage in spain - whatever it entails/costs - and hopefully they can get back to the van after 90 days - cant see france allowing people to travel through the whole country possibly spreading virus considering there may or maynot be options of flights - but that is what i'd be thinking now for worst case scenario - cant get worse than that surely


Not an attractive option - I'm staying in my motorhome bubble rather than flying with a load of strangers!


----------



## RoaminRog

Just bought a set of the new Angles Morts stickers as we are over 3.5t. I can’t believe how big they are! Obviously designed to ruin the aesthetics of any motorhome.
To my mind, cyclists should be taught from an early age, to respect large vehicles, and then they in turn can expect respect from lorries, buses, coaches and large vehicles in general.
If they can’t aspire to this, they should reconsider whether they should actually be on the road! Rant over.


----------



## antiquesam

Snapster said:


> And that’s exactly how the virus has spread across the world.


I really must remember that not everyone understands or appreciates my sense of humour.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

antiquesam said:


> I really must remember that not everyone understands or appreciates my sense of humour.



Humour is vital, even more so nowadays.
People have different funny bones.
Some unfortunate souls are born without any 

Unfortunately, dark humour is not always understood or appreciated by snowflakes, or those without any funny bones, Sam.

I feel genuinely sorry for those without funny bones.
Humour is a fantastic antidote to sadness and depression.
Often way better than pills and potions. It's effect is instant and it's free!


----------



## Snapster

I do have a sense of humour, unfortunately, many people think and behave just as you said.


----------



## Snapster

mariesnowgoose said:


> Humour is vital, even more so nowadays.
> People have different funny bones.
> Some unfortunate souls are born without any
> 
> Unfortunately, dark humour is not always understood or appreciated by snowflakes, or those without any funny bones, Sam.
> 
> I feel genuinely sorry for those without funny bones.
> Humour is a fantastic antidote to sadness and depression.
> Often way better than pills and potions. It's effect is instant and it's free!


I realise ( after it was explained) that the comment was meant to be ironic. 
But, it’s not a case of being a snowflake, sometimes, some of us with close family members suffering from the virus, through no fault if their own, take a little longer to see the funny side....


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Snapster said:


> I realise ( after it was explained) that the comment was meant to be ironic.
> But, it’s not a case of being a snowflake, sometimes, some of us with close family members suffering from the virus, through no fault if their own, take a little longer to see the funny side....



Understand 100%. 
Depends how down you're feeling at the time as to whether you feel a particular joke is funny or not 

Lots of members, including myself, are living with illness, death of family and friends, impending death of family and friends (not just virus related), and the devastating affect the pandemic is having on all of us.

It's the prospect of a terrible illness and potential death due to the virus that has many people stressed out and jumpy with fear.
For some it will be the first time they have experienced the threat of death, or faced anything like it and will have big difficulties coping.

But I don't want mine or others humour gagged and taken away just because we are living through a very difficult and extraordinary event.
It's at times like this that we need to keep a sense of humour more than ever before, imho.

And nobody can please all of the people all of the time, so keeping the balance "right", especially with just text on a digital screen, is nigh on impossible.


----------



## antiquesam

I have to confess that I don't know anyone who has had the virus (no friends) and my feeling is that there are so many things that can sneak up and get me, so I'm determined to get out and away whenever it's legal. The day that Club sites opened I was there and a few other times. We've managed a week in a holiday cottage and three trips away in hotels. Every week that restaurants have been open we've eaten out. I've followed the rules but taken every opportunity to enjoy myself. I'm not allowed to do anything now but the day they open up again I'm off.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

antiquesam said:


> I have to confess that I don't know anyone who has had the virus (no friends) and my feeling is that there are so many things that can sneak up and get me, so I'm determined to get out and away whenever it's legal. The day that Club sites opened I was there and a few other times. We've managed a week in a holiday cottage and three trips away in hotels. Every week that restaurants have been open we've eaten out. I've followed the rules but taken every opportunity to enjoy myself. I'm not allowed to do anything now but the day they open up again I'm off.



Yup. Life is short. Go for it.


----------



## REC

The Hospital Trust where I used to work have lost another three staff this month...including a receptionist. Very few people on here seem to deliberately take risks but some make a balanced judgement, bearing in mind the rules and their individual needs. Personally, I don't live in fear, I know what I can and can't do safely, don't take risks for myself or others, but living as best we can under the restrictions. But respecting the personal decisions made by others given their circumstances, and my lack of knowledge about all the factors affecting them. 
And yes, a laugh is essential...even if slightly maniacal at times!


----------



## jeffmossy

Going back to the no meat rule , I wonder if this applies to tinned / Packed dog food


----------



## Snapster

jeffmossy said:


> Going back to the no meat rule , I wonder if this applies to tinned / Packed dog food



Travellers are not allowed to bring in meat, milk or their products, unless they are coming with less than 10 kilograms of these products from the Faeroe Islands or Greenland
There is also an exemption for powdered infant milk, infant food, and special foods or special pet feed required for medical reasons, if weighing less than 2 kilograms and provided that:
such products do not require refrigeration before opening
that they are packaged proprietary brand products for direct sale to the final consumer, and
the packaging is unbroken unless in current use

For fishery products (including fish and certain shellfish such as prawns, lobsters, dead mussels and dead oysters), travellers are allowed to bring in up to 20 kilograms or the weight of one fish if this is higher. However, there is no such weight restriction for travellers coming from the Faeroe Islands or Greenland
For other animal products, such as honey, live oysters, live mussels and snails for example, travellers are allowed to bring in up to 2 kilograms
These rules do not apply to animal products transported between the EU Member States, or for animal products coming from Andorra, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, San Marino or Switzerland.


----------



## antiquesam

Come April the same will apply coming into the UK. No more chorizo or brie hidden away.


----------



## witzend

Snapster said:


> I realise ( after it was explained) that the comment was meant to be ironic.
> But, it’s not a case of being a snowflake, sometimes, some of us with close family members suffering from the virus, through no fault if their own, take a little longer to see the funny side....


Ironic or Not It just ain't a Joking matter and there's No funny side to Covid How can some still take it so lightly 89k + deaths so far


----------



## mfw

Always take dogs dried food with me hope that is not restricted as it does have dried meat substitute in it


----------



## REC

mfw said:


> Always take dogs dried food with me hope that is not restricted as it does have dried meat substitute in it


Think it probably is a "meat product" whether tinned or dried. I suppose a vet might give you a letter saying that it is special food for your pet as that is exempt? Some dogs ( most?) have to stay on same diet or they get tummy problems.


----------



## REC

antiquesam said:


> Come April the same will apply coming into the UK. No more chorizo or brie hidden away.


Missed that one! Is there a link?


----------



## Snapster

Unless your dog is on a very special diet ( in which case you can take some of its food with you) you only need to take a small amount of food with you. There is a huge selection of dog food in France, just about everything you can get in the UK is available here in supermarkets, pet stores or garden centres.


----------



## antiquesam

REC said:


> Missed that one! Is there a link?


Sorry I've just read it in a few newspapers. The EU started controls from day one, we don't want holdups so we are allowing everything through until we get our act together, starting in April.


----------



## antiquesam

REC said:


> Missed that one! Is there a link?


I've just googled EU to UK food imports and found it on the Gov website. Virgin have failed again and my broadband is off and life is difficult enough without trying complicated things on my mobile.


----------



## 2cv

It would seem that the government are at last beginning to get serious about quarantine, requiring it to be carried out in designated hotels at port of entry. The requirement has been successful in several countries. Link


----------



## number14

mfw said:


> Always take dogs dried food with me hope that is not restricted as it does have dried meat substitute in it


You may have missed my posts #89 & #92 and the other replies in the Really???  thread. My view is that any meat product, however packed, is prohibited. Fish products are allowed which I take to include, say, salmon based dry dog food. 
My dog's dry food (Yora) is based on grubs which ironically are cultured in the Netherlands. Does this count as meat? I have emailed them to ask.


----------



## John H

antiquesam said:


> I've just googled EU to UK food imports and found it on the Gov website. Virgin have failed again and my broadband is off and life is difficult enough without trying complicated things on my mobile.


Interesting that you can take meat and dairy products into the UK from the EU but that restrictions on plant products will be phased in during 2021. That is almost the precise opposite of the EU rule. The moral? British meat and EU vegetables are unsafe, so eat vegetarian in the UK and be a carnivore in the EU!


----------



## T4Lyn

2cv said:


> It would seem that the government are at last beginning to get serious about quarantine, requiring it to be carried out in designated hotels at port of entry. The requirement has been successful in several countries. Link


Always late to the party, the UK! NZ insists on all travellers having a voucher for a managed isolation space which is booked up till about April/May I believe. https://www.miq.govt.nz/travel-to-new-zealand/secure-your-place-in-managed-isolation/


----------



## Fazerloz

witzend said:


> Ironic or Not It just ain't a Joking matter and there's No funny side to Covid How can some still take it so lightly 89k + deaths so far



It isn't a matter of taking it lightly. Humour  has always been used throughout the ages during the darkest times. Its a form of relief.


----------



## mfw

number14 said:


> You may have missed my posts #89 & #92 and the other replies in the Really???  thread. My view is that any meat product, however packed, is prohibited. Fish products are allowed which I take to include, say, salmon based dry dog food.
> My dog's dry food (Yora) is based on grubs which ironically are cultured in the Netherlands. Does this count as meat? I have emailed them to ask.


I tend to feed dog skinners field and trial which does come in a salmon and rice so that may possibly be allowed then - i do keep her to same make of food just vary the flavours - never seen it available abroad but maybe it is available


----------



## TJBi

mfw said:


> I tend to feed dog skinners field and trial which does come in a salmon and rice so that may possibly be allowed then - i do keep her to same make of food just vary the flavours - never seen it available abroad but maybe it is available


From About | Skinner's Field & Trial : "Skinner’s can be found in over 2,000 retailers throughout the UK and across Europe." They give no more info about stockists in Europe, so you'd need to contact them direct.


----------



## Snapster

Amazon France and Germany sell Skinners. Might be worth contacting Skinners to ask for details of retailers abroad.
We have a few stores near us that sell pet food and they all seem to have a huge range, I’ll see if they sell it next time we go.


----------



## number14

We often give our dog some fish, which she loves. (Mind you,  our dog will eat anything but that's another story). I think I will wean her onto a fish based dry food a few weeks before our next Euro trip, whenever that might be.


----------



## barryd

2cv said:


> It would seem that the government are at last beginning to get serious about quarantine, requiring it to be carried out in designated hotels at port of entry. The requirement has been successful in several countries. Link


 
Only taken them a year!


----------



## barryd

witzend said:


> Ironic or Not It just ain't a Joking matter and there's No funny side to Covid How can some still take it so lightly 89k + deaths so far



Its what we Brits do though isnt it?  Especially the forces like the Army or the Police.  We take the piss no matter how bleak the situation and I am quite proud of that.   Have you ever read the book "Bravo two Zero"?  About the SAS in the first gulf war.  At the end when all the battered and tortured British and American POWs were released they were put on two passenger jets and flown out of Iraq.  One was full of Americans and one Brits.  Two American Fighter planes appeared next to the American flight and the Pilot and copilot proudly saluted their brothers in arms on the passenger jet and they proudly with tears in their eyes reciprocated.   Two British Tornados appeared at the window of the British Passenger jet and promptly gave them the wanker hand signal before flying off into the distance.   Its what we do.  

Humour is a coping mechanism some say.  I just think we love to take the piss no matter what.


----------



## colinm

.gov minister this morning, plans to have isolation hotels have/are being looked into but no decision has been made as yet, also these might only apply to those coming in from certain high risk countries, not all countries. So it's still work in progress.


----------



## Jo001

Snapster said:


> Amazon France and Germany sell Skinners. Might be worth contacting Skinners to ask for details of retailers abroad.
> We have a few stores near us that sell pet food and they all seem to have a huge range, I’ll see if they sell it next time we go.


Where are you please @Snapster ? If you are in France, can you recommend any pet store chains?


----------



## Snapster

We are in Brittany ( Cotes D’armor), there are some independent pet stores near us but most large garden centres and DIY stores seem to have pet supplies and large stocks of dried dog food. Pointe Verte, Magasan Verte and Weldom seem to have the largest choice near us.  
If anyone needs to know if a specific food is available, let me know and a I’ll have a look.


----------



## Jo001

Thank you @Snapster. People are going to have to find a supply of dog food literally within hours of arriving, I have contacted the supplier of mine (Platinum) to ask if there is anywhere in the Calais area that I'll be able to get it.

The irony is that our food is made in Germany. Hopefully they will find a way round it, I'd be happy to go in with unopened, sealed bags.


----------



## mfw

I cant understand why animals health certificate only lasts 4 months considering the land mass of europe and surrounding countries have a lot more infections for pets and they just need a passport - maybe someone can explain it as i cant understand the reasoning behind it


----------



## Snapster

When the UK was in the EU, we bought into the EU pet passport scheme which allowed for pets to travel as long as they were complying with the scheme.  Now the UK has left, the UK government and DEFRA have come up with the health certificate. It does not have the validity of the passport scheme so is not accepted as such in the EU


----------



## 2cv

Only the DM, but it does appear that hotel quarantine is about to be the norm for UK. Link


----------



## barryd

2cv said:


> Only the DM, but it does appear that hotel quarantine is about to be the norm for UK. Link



That dont sound good. Last summer it was business as usual in the end (kind of).  What do they know that they are not telling us?


----------



## RoaminRog

2cv said:


> Only the DM, but it does appear that hotel quarantine is about to be the norm for UK. Link


I’ve never heard such a load of old bunkem. If Boris signs this off, we can say farewell to the *entire* travel industry and associated business’s.


----------



## barryd

RoaminRog said:


> I’ve never heard such a load of old bunkem. If Boris signs this off, we can say farewell to the *entire* travel industry and associated business’s.



How would it work with people returning on ferries or the tunnel?  Motorhomers even!! There will be a fair few of them heading home in March when their 90 days is up.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Well, I'm sorry but I won't be crying any tears for anyone who is up in arms about their overseas holidays this year.
Crocodile tears, maybe, but that'll be about it.

Put simply: those who won't be able to afford to do the quarantine & extra time won't go, those who can, will.
Other than that, just have to suck it up and get on with it as best as you can.

I might sound unsympathetic and, in this case, 100% admit that I am.

If anyone thinks it's because I don't care about this problem, or don't understand the implications, you'd be 100% wrong.
95% of the business that has paid our own way for the last 20 years is in the tourism sector!
I won't bore you with how that's impacted on us this last year, let's just say we have not been immune to the business fallout.

But if anyone still believes that bringing the world to a grinding halt because of a serious pandemic wasn't going to have a major impact on the way we all live, then there is an urgent need to wake up. There is no returning to 'normality' for a good while yet.  Many things in our lives have been brought to a grinding halt, with lockdowns not once, but 3 times during the last 11 months - and that's just in the UK!

There are way more serious things than foreign holidays to be concerned about, imho.

The bottom line for *all* governments from day one was to prevent health systems from being swamped.
That requirement has never changed, and won't be changing any time soon.

The most important thing we can all do is take it one step at a time.
Concentrate on getting vaccinated first, then hope and pray that the vaccines actually work down the line.

Then worry about your 'holidays'.

Rant over.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> How would it work with people returning on ferries or the tunnel?  Motorhomers even!! There will be a fair few of them heading home in March when their 90 days is up.


I have no objection to being confined to a hotel for quarantine when we get back but they do seem to have forgotten that not everybody will be returning by plane. As long as they provide a hotel with a decent car park I will be happy but  I've got a feeling that they will have to revise the decision when they realise that they've got a fleet of motorhomes to deal with!


----------



## colinm

At the moment NZ and Australia do this, not sure how NZ is fairing at moment, but Australia has close to 40,000 stuck abroad who want to get home, but numbers have been limited, some have been waiting months to get home.


----------



## brian c

100%agree with thread 355.      Is there anyone that can say they have not got COVID.     No symptoms does not mean that you are not a carrier.     A negative test yesterday does not mean you have not caught it today    All I seem to hear lately is.  Ooh I can’t do this.  I can’t do that. I can’t. I can’t   Ooh poor me.   As Marie says( I think).  Settle down. Face it accept it. Adapt our lives and get on with it.  I don’t think life will ever go back to how it was.     We all seemed to want more   Do less.    no time.   no patience.  This COVID has slowed us down.  We needed slowing.  I now see a queue and people waiting in line.  Before it was. What’s the holdup. Open more tills. Get more staff.   Come on  I’m waiting here.    Ooh well helmet on. Head down.  Ducking.  Brian


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> I have no objection to being confined to a hotel for quarantine when we get back but they do seem to have forgotten that not everybody will be returning by plane. As long as they provide a hotel with a decent car park I will be happy but  I've got a feeling that they will have to revise the decision when they realise that they've got a fleet of motorhomes to deal with!



Well it is in the Daily Fail so can probably be taken with a pinch of salt.  According to the article though you will have to cough up for the hotel.  Maybe they could put all the motorhomers in one of the many Farages Garages they are building for trucks


----------



## John H

brian c said:


> 100%agree with thread 355.      Is there anyone that can say they have not got COVID.     No symptoms does not mean that you are not a carrier.     A negative test yesterday does not mean you have not caught it today    All I seem to hear lately is.  Ooh I can’t do this.  I can’t do that. I can’t. I can’t   Ooh poor me.   As Marie says( I think).  Settle down. Face it accept it. Adapt our lives and get on with it.  I don’t think life will ever go back to how it was.     We all seemed to want more   Do less.    no time.   no patience.  This COVID has slowed us down.  We needed slowing.  I now see a queue and people waiting in line.  Before it was. What’s the holdup. Open more tills. Get more staff.   Come on  I’m waiting here.    Ooh well helmet on. Head down.  Ducking.  Brian


As the person who started this thread, I have to say that I'm not complaining about anything. I am happy with where I am and with the restrictions imposed on us here - and If I have to stay here longer than planned then I certainly won't be complaining at that point either


----------



## colinm

barryd said:


> Well it is in the Daily Fail so can probably be taken with a pinch of salt.  According to the article though you will have to cough up for the hotel.  Maybe they could put all the motorhomers in one of the many Farages Garages they are building for trucks


Last time I looked our local asylum seekers centre had been emptied, so plenty of room there, vehicles can be put in storage and paid for.


----------



## antiquesam

They will no doubt be charging EU citizens likewise when visiting the UK.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

antiquesam said:


> They will no doubt be charging EU citizens likewise when visiting the UK.



That's if anybody actually wants to come here on holiday


----------



## antiquesam

mariesnowgoose said:


> That's if anybody actually wants to come here on holiday


Very true. I've never really understood why they do anyway but most of our visitors seem to be non EU nationals who presumably pay the higher rate anyway.


----------



## maingate

mariesnowgoose said:


> That's if anybody actually wants to come here on holiday



O yes they will, like the idiot wanting to come here from Spain to stay with the Wifes Cousin.

She found out that she can get a flight over for £9 ....... yes, £9 so she decided to come. She cares not that the Wifes Cousin has terminal Bone Cancer and needs to isolate. My Wife and Daughter are doing as much as they can for her. The Wife sees her twice a day. On a morning to collect her dog and in the afternoon to return the dog. She also does some shopping for her and takes her to GP and Hospital appointments.

After a year of this virus, some people are just too stupid to grasp how they should behave.


----------



## mfw

Those that have gone against travel advise probably realise that if the crap hits the fan they have prepared for it at whatever the cost - whether the gov offers help or not - whether they offer a flight to people at their cost or not - but 90 days is 90 days so if you have to extend beyond that who knows what will happen we are no longer in the EU so will people be able to drive through countries - or will they just get arrested and detained until a flight can be arranged


----------



## mark61

They'll drive back within the 90 days and then into quarantine when here, if thats the rules at the time. Won't they?


----------



## 2cv

It may well be that UK has a less restrictive policy so that EU returnees are not affected, but some very sad stories from Australians, still tens of thousands stranded. Link


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> 90 days is 90 days so if you have to extend beyond that who knows what will happen we are no longer in the EU so will people be able to drive through countries - or will they just get arrested and detained until a flight can be arranged


No. If you are unable to return because of circumstances beyond your control, say of the cancellation of ferries, that is classed as a force majeure and you will not be penalised for staying longer than 90 days.


----------



## 2cv

John H said:


> No. If you are unable to return because of circumstances beyond your control, say of the cancellation of ferries, that is classed as a force majeure and you will not be penalised for staying longer than 90 days.



According to this article it is well worth applying for an extension if unable to return rather than just going over the 90 days.


----------



## mfw

My whole point is going against advise it then becomes your responsibility - and i do think people that have gone are being ultra careful - either 1 of the problems would of been problems but they are now doubled - you have options rather than driving back you can fly at your expense leaving your vehicles in storage - i always like to have worst case covered and that is what would look at for a backup whether i liked it or not 
Not trying to get anyones back up here you just need to be prepared for the amount of trouble and inconvenience you could encounter in getting back


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> According to this article it is well worth applying for an extension if unable to return rather than just going over the 90 days.


We intend not to overstay but if we have to because of circumstances beyond our control, we will be ok - as I said above. Applying for an extension is not a possibility because, apart from anything else, you have to apply while you are still in your home country! But thanks anyway


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> My whole point is going against advise it then becomes your responsibility - and i do think people that have gone are being ultra careful - either 1 of the problems would of been problems but they are now doubled - you have options rather than driving back you can fly at your expense leaving your vehicles in storage - i always like to have worst case covered and that is what would look at for a backup whether i liked it or not
> Not trying to get anyones back up here you just need to be prepared for the amount of trouble and inconvenience you could encounter in getting back


Personally, I see leaving the motorhome behind and flying back as a worse option than driving back and would not consider it for many reasons. I agree that it is always wise to have the worst case scenario covered but I don't see the value in creating a worse case than the worst case!  

PS I believe that what you do is your responsibility whether you are acting on advice or not.


----------



## mark61

Haven't checked recently but pretty sure you can apply for extension while within Schengen, and an extension for  force majeure is one that will be given.
Your not going to get an extension due to  force majeure while still in home country, are you?


----------



## 2cv

mark61 said:


> Haven't checked recently but pretty sure you can apply for extension while within Schengen, and an extension for  force majeure is one that will be given.
> Your not going to get an extension due to  force majeure while still in home country, are you?



Here’s the bit about force majeure extension Link. It should be a valid reason for extension and could save lots of future hassle compared to simply overstaying because of being unable to return to UK.


----------



## mark61

You not going to be given an extension until you know you can't get back, I mean you can't apply in advance for an extension due to force majeure.

Seeing as we're all guessing about the stuff that may or may not happen, I'm gonna hazard a guess that people stuck away in these circumstance will automatically be given an extension. The link above is for individual cases, no authority will want to deal with 1000's of applications in these times, I would hope at least.


----------



## John H

mark61 said:


> Haven't checked recently but pretty sure you can apply for extension while within Schengen, and an extension for  force majeure is one that will be given.
> Your not going to get an extension due to  force majeure while still in home country, are you?


Force majeure doesn't require an advance application for extension. It can't require an application because it is unforseen! For any other extension, you are meant to prepare for it before you set off on your journey. I am unaware of any extension that can be applied for while you are already in the EU country concerned (other than force majeure).


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> Force majeure doesn't require an advance application for extension. It can't require an application because it is unforseen! For any other extension, you are meant to prepare for it before you set off on your journey. I am unaware of any extension that can be applied for while you are already in the EU country concerned (other than force majeure).



I think that's what Mark has already said in his previous post!


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> Personally, I see leaving the motorhome behind and flying back as a worse option than driving back and would not consider it for many reasons. I agree that it is always wise to have the worst case scenario covered but I don't see the value in creating a worse case than the worst case!
> 
> PS I believe that what you do is your responsibility whether you are acting on advice or not.


I see it as a potential nightmare really cant see people being able to drive through countries to get home - the only option i see is leaving van there and getting a flight back - and god help people if they have a pet with them which is what stopped me doing it


----------



## antiquesam

The newspapers seem to be saying the hotel quarantine edict will probably take effect in two weeks, giving ample time to make arrangements to repatriate. If you linger longer than that I can't see any justification for claiming force majeure.


----------



## Snapster

maingate said:


> O yes they will, like the idiot wanting to come here from Spain to stay with the Wifes Cousin.
> 
> She found out that she can get a flight over for £9 ....... yes, £9 so she decided to come. She cares not that the Wifes Cousin has terminal Bone Cancer and needs to isolate. My Wife and Daughter are doing as much as they can for her. The Wife sees her twice a day. On a morning to collect her dog and in the afternoon to return the dog. She also does some shopping for her and takes her to GP and Hospital appointments.
> 
> After a year of this virus, some people are just too stupid to grasp how they should behave.



I heard on the news last week that around 6000 people are still arriving in the UK every day! 
Hope they have enough hotel rooms...........


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> I think that's what Mark has already said in his previous post!


Yes, we are broadly agreeing - apart from the fact that you cannot apply for an extension while you are in the country


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> I see it as a potential nightmare really cant see people being able to drive through countries to get home - the only option i see is leaving van there and getting a flight back - and god help people if they have a pet with them which is what stopped me doing it



I think you are wrong on that. Even at the height of the restrictions, the UK, Spain and France allowed (and are still allowing) people to transit to their normal place of residence. I cannot forsee any circumstances under which they will prevent that.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> Yes, we are broadly agreeing - apart from the fact that you cannot apply for an extension while you are in the country



I think Mark already said that too 

"Force majeure doesn't require an advance application for extension".


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> I think you are wrong on that. Even at the height of the restrictions, the UK, Spain and France allowed (and are still allowing) people to transit to their normal place of residence. *I cannot forsee any circumstances under which they will prevent that*.



I'm very glad you have access to a crystal ball


----------



## John H

antiquesam said:


> The newspapers seem to be saying the hotel quarantine edict will probably take effect in two weeks, giving ample time to make arrangements to repatriate. If you linger longer than that I can't see any justification for claiming force majeure.



Force majeure does not apply to quarantine. The force majeure I am referring to would be if it was physically impossible for us to get home because, for example, all flights and ferries were cancelled. I cannot see it happening but, as we said earlier, it is always wise to prepare for the worst outcome.


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> I think he already said that too
> 
> "Force majeure doesn't require an advance application for extension".


I may have got it wrong but I believe he suggested that it would be a good idea to apply for an extension before the shit hit the fan


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm very glad you have access to a crystal ball


You don't need a crystal ball - no democratic country has ever prevented law-abiding citizens from returning home 

But if I am wrong, we are back to force majeure and I will just have to spend longer in the sun. A hard life but somebody has to do it............


----------



## 2cv

John H said:


> You don't need a crystal ball -* no democratic country has ever prevented law-abiding citizens from returning home *
> 
> But if I am wrong, we are back to force majeure and I will just have to spend longer in the sun. A hard life but somebody has to do it............



The problem for tens of thousands of Australians is that entry numbers have been severely limited because of the hotel quarantine policy. Should similar occur in UK this is where force majeur would apply, and as explained in the link in post #375 a visa extension can be applied for and would most likely be granted. To simply remain beyond 90 days could result in many unwanted consequences.


----------



## antiquesam

John H said:


> Force majeure does not apply to quarantine. The force majeure I am referring to would be if it was physically impossible for us to get home because, for example, all flights and ferries were cancelled. I cannot see it happening but, as we said earlier, it is always wise to prepare for the worst outcome.


Surely if we have fourteen days notice then ferries and airlines will maximise profitability to get people back in the knowledge that times will be hard afterwards. If someone doesn't take advantage of the window then on their own head be it.


----------



## tidewatcher

It is interesting how different people approach the situation. Last September when things eased we headed over to France taking all precautions. Cabin on the ferry took our own food for the trip etc. Working on the “we are self isolating in the van” theory which is almost correct but shopping and sorting the van did include some contact. We came to the conclusion that although we were managing risk the consequences of catching the bug over there were much higher. Complications logistically as well as having experienced a medical problem when abroad previously it is not necessarily straight forward.

This “shadow” plus the fact that it was just not the same anyway, places closed, restrictions and the general sense of unease made the experience far less enjoyable than previously. Now with a year under the belt and experience of seeing how quickly circumstance can change I am far less inclined to venture abroad until some sort of pattern post vaccine roll out emerges. When the world changes we have to change with it, at least in the short to medium term. To continue trying to carry on as if it was just the same is, in my opinion, short sighted and anyone who tries must live with the consequences and not rely on being bailed out by government or outside bodies.

The choice is up to the individual but the individual must carry the consequences.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

tidewatcher said:


> It is interesting how different people approach the situation. Last September when things eased we headed over to France taking all precautions. Cabin on the ferry took our own food for the trip etc. Working on the “we are self isolating in the van” theory which is almost correct but shopping and sorting the van did include some contact. We came to the conclusion that although we were managing risk the consequences of catching the bug over there were much higher. Complications logistically as well as having experienced a medical problem when abroad previously it is not necessarily straight forward.
> 
> This “shadow” plus the fact that it was just not the same anyway, places closed, restrictions and the general sense of unease made the experience far less enjoyable than previously. Now with a year under the belt and experience of seeing how quickly circumstance can change I am far less inclined to venture abroad until some sort of pattern post vaccine roll out emerges. When the world changes we have to change with it, at least in the short to medium term. To continue trying to carry on as if it was just the same is, in my opinion, short sighted and anyone who tries must live with the consequences and not rely on being bailed out by government or outside bodies.
> 
> The choice is up to the individual but the individual must carry the consequences.



Spot on, thank you


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> The problem for tens of thousands of Australians is that entry numbers have been severely limited because of the hotel quarantine policy. Should similar occur in UK this is where force majeur would apply, and as explained in the link in post #375 a visa extension can be applied for and would most likely be granted. To simply remain beyond 90 days could result in many unwanted consequences.


I agree. There is a difference between preventing citizens returning home and delays. Those Australians may have to wait longer than planned to get home but they will get home and force majeure applies in the meantime.


----------



## John H

antiquesam said:


> Surely if we have fourteen days notice then ferries and airlines will maximise profitability to get people back in the knowledge that times will be hard afterwards. If someone doesn't take advantage of the window then on their own head be it.


Not exactly. After the fourteen day window (if it is granted) people are still able to get home but under different restrictions. As 2cv has said, if there is an enforced delay after that due to the UK not being able to cope with numbers then force majeure applies.


----------



## John H

tidewatcher said:


> The choice is up to the individual but the individual must carry the consequences.


Spot on. That is my view and I see no reason to change it


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> You don't need a crystal ball - no democratic country has ever prevented law-abiding citizens from returning home
> 
> But if I am wrong, we are back to force majeure and I will just have to spend longer in the sun. A hard life but somebody has to do it............


Dont think you will have a problem flying home i think peoples vans will be the problem getting home - i think people will have to put them in storage - and that is personal view and if people have a pet it will be more problematic


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Dont think you will have a problem flying home i think peoples vans will be the problem getting home - i think people will have to put them in storage - and that is personal view and if people have a pet it will be more problematic


Not quite sure what makes you think that. Here in Spain, they are trying to discourage travel by air but are allowing vehicles to pass through. Makes sense to me.

PS I agree that travelling with pets will be a nightmare but we are not in that position.


----------



## mfw

Difference is it can be contained with a flight as against taking a virus right across a country by driving - personally it is safer just to refuse entry and force people to pay for flights to get home - that is safer like it or not


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Difference is it can be contained with a flight as against taking a virus right across a country by driving - personally it is safer just to refuse entry and force people to pay for flights to get home - that is safer like it or not


Having seen the scenes at Heathrow airport recently, I think I will dispute that!


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> Having seen the scenes at Heathrow airport recently, I think I will dispute that!


It keeps it contained within a group - no-one would want to be stuck in that position but you may have no choice


----------



## mark61

I've driven back from Malaga on my own, and had contact with about 4 people on the journey. 
Try returning on a plane only being in contact with 4 people.


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> Not quite sure what makes you think that. Here in Spain, they are trying to discourage travel by air but are allowing vehicles to pass through. Makes sense to me.
> 
> PS I agree that travelling with pets will be a nightmare but we are not in that position.



I cant see any country demanding you leave your vehicle and fly home.  You are much safer in your van than on a plane or at an airport and of course if you happen to be carrying the virus without knowing much less of a risk to other people. 

Like last time I expect you will be able to drive back up through France with the right paper work.  What happens when you get to the UK might be another matter.  I guess you are due back end of March John?  All might have changed by then.  I would just sit tight and not worry about it, drink beer and lap up the sunshine, Feck it!   You might up being there all summer!


----------



## mark61

barryd said:


> I cant see any country demanding you leave your vehicle and fly home.  You are much safer in your van than on a plane or at an airport and of course if you happen to be carrying the virus without knowing much less of a risk to other people.
> 
> Like last time I expect you will be able to drive back up through France with the right paper work.  What happens when you get to the UK might be another matter.  I guess you are due back end of March John?  All might have changed by then.  I would just sit tight and not worry about it, drink beer and lap up the sunshine, Feck it!  You might up being there all summer!



My thoughts exactly.

If I were over there, the only preparation I'd be doing is making sure my blood had so much alcohol in it, I wouldn't be able to drive for at least a month.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

A motorhome is a vehicle same as any other.
Would be a strange prospect to be asking every driver abroad in their own vehicles to abandon them and catch a plane home!
But guess you never know in these strange times.

Besides, wild horses wouldn't get me on a plane just now.

Whichever way you argue it, travelling in a motorhome with its own facilities has logically got to be way safer than any other type of transport to get you from A to B over any great distance.


----------



## REC

Trying not to get embroiled in this discussion as some obviously are completely against anyone doing anything despite logical reasons and sensible precautions. I am completely sure that any action taken was done with careful planning and knowledge and I personally, would not dream of being critical of an individual's decision either implicitly or explicitly.   
When we travelled back to UK last May in our motor Home , we came into contact with ONE person at a distance at a fuel station where the card  machine was not working, so we paid at the booth. We did no shopping, left the van once for a legally allowed (registered online in France) walk. I really fail to see how that can be considered for
" taking the virus across other countries" . Likewise when we returned to Portugal we came into contact with ONE person, wearing a mask at distance, in the tunnel. We took food, water and every other precaution and did not leave the van at all. 
Flying keeps people in a group rather than isolated in a van or car...safer? 
We intend staying here until WE feel it is safe to return it until a crisis at home means we have to come back. But if a crisis the journey back will be the same risk as travelling across UK to get to those who are vulnerable, just a couple of days longer.


----------



## maingate

REC said:


> Trying not to get embroiled in this discussion as some obviously are completely against anyone doing anything despite logical reasons and sensible precautions. I am completely sure that any action taken was done with careful planning and knowledge and I personally, would not dream of being critical of an individual's decision either implicitly or explicitly.
> When we travelled back to UK last May in our motor Home , we came into contact with ONE person at a distance at a fuel station where the card  machine was not working, so we paid at the booth. We did no shopping, left the van once for a legally allowed (registered online in France) walk. I really fail to see how that can be considered for
> " taking the virus across other countries" . Likewise when we returned to Portugal we came into contact with ONE person, wearing a mask at distance, in the tunnel. We took food, water and every other precaution and did not leave the van at all.
> Flying keeps people in a group rather than isolated in a van or car...safer?
> We intend staying here until WE feel it is safe to return it until a crisis at home means we have to come back. But if a crisis the journey back will be the same risk as travelling across UK to get to those who are vulnerable, just a couple of days longer.



I think the potential problem is not about people travelling to Spain/Portugal for the Winter. It seems to be about how the situation has changed radically since then.


----------



## TJBi

2cv said:


> According to this article it is well worth applying for an extension if unable to return rather than just going over the 90 days.


The difficulty with this might be in applying for an extension to a visa that you don't have in the first place, because UK nationals do not require visas for stays up to 90 days in 180.


----------



## 2cv

TJBi said:


> The difficulty with this might be in applying for an extension to a visa that you don't have in the first place, because UK nationals do not require visas for stays up to 90 days in 180.



It may indeed be a difficulty, but the article suggests that a stay under a visa waiver program may also be extended in such circumstances. I agree that it adds to the complication.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> I cant see any country demanding you leave your vehicle and fly home.  You are much safer in your van than on a plane or at an airport and of course if you happen to be carrying the virus without knowing much less of a risk to other people.
> 
> Like last time I expect you will be able to drive back up through France with the right paper work.  What happens when you get to the UK might be another matter.  I guess you are due back end of March John?  All might have changed by then.  I would just sit tight and not worry about it, drink beer and lap up the sunshine, Feck it!   You might up being there all summer!


The only thing I disagree with there is that I am drinking wine - plus a very nice bottle of a single malt to celebrate Burns Day (socially- distanced, of course)


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> It keeps it contained within a group - no-one would want to be stuck in that position but you may have no choice


???????? !!!!!!!


----------



## mariesnowgoose

mfw said:


> Difference is it can be contained with a flight as against taking a virus right across a country by driving - *personally it is safer just to refuse entry and force people to pay for flights to get home - that is safer like it or not*



I don't understand the logic?

If you dig into the facts, one of the main reasons why covid spread so rapidly all round the world in the first place was down to one main mode of transport - planes! It stood head and shoulders above any other method in spreading it far and wide and with massive speed. Fact. Not speculation or opinion.

If you mean that it is now better to fly than drive because it keeps a group of potentially infected people all heading home together in one container (plane) who will then (hopefully!) all quarantine when they disembark, I can kind of see where you might be coming from - but then.... not really?

Or is there another reason why the UK are taking steps to ban incoming flights from around the world?!

Motorhome - OK, you may need to stock up on bare essentials during transit - food, fuel, etc.
But we are all having to do this at home in bricks and mortar too.
And that doesn't always mean the luxury of home deliveries for anything and everything.
Plenty of us have to occasionally venture outside the 4 walls whether we want to or not!

In a motorhome, by sticking to all the basic safety rules (keep your distance, don't touch your face before washing your hands & disinfect anything coming into your motorhome en route) you are doing everything that the rest of us are doing back in our bricks and mortar, other than our place of residence is immobile and a motorhome in transit isn't.

If you have no option on travelling, it is better to do it in isolated safety in a motorhome.
That is way less risky than flying, imo.

Don't forget to spot the elephant in the room here - Mr H is a pretty good wind up merchant!
Sitting in his cushty spot in France drinking wine and whisky and thumbing his nose at our shivery bums over the channel ... Mischief Man!


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> Don't forget to spot the elephant in the room here - Mr H is a pretty good wind up merchant!
> Sitting in his cushty spot in France drinking wine and whisky and thumbing his nose at our shivery bums over the channel ... Mischief Man!



I object to that most strongly - I am in Spain, not France!  
I


----------



## mariesnowgoose

John H said:


> I object to that most strongly - I am in Spain, not France!
> I



Oops! Sorry   

I'm sure you said somewhere earlier you were in France - my mistake!

That's further south, so even hotter....


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> Oops! Sorry
> 
> I'm sure you said somewhere earlier you were in France - my mistake!
> 
> That's further south, so even hotter....



I was in France in October so it depends how far back your memory goes. Far too cold for me now


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> The only thing I disagree with there is that I am drinking wine - plus a very nice bottle of a single malt to celebrate Burns Day (socially- distanced, of course)



Beer for the beach then!! Single Malt and Wine in the van.   I virtually never drink beer anymore.  Red wine and Scotch now. (Not in the same glass)

Just stay put and wait until they chuck you out I reckon.  Just wing it!


----------



## 2cv

Quarantine hotels are no fun Link but their benefits to all can be great. I know people who have caught covid whilst in them, but hopefully the UK ones will have suitable hygiene in place.


----------



## mfw

mariesnowgoose said:


> I don't understand the logic?
> 
> If you dig into the facts, one of the main reasons why covid spread so rapidly all round the world in the first place was down to one main mode of transport - planes! It stood head and shoulders above any other method in spreading it far and wide and with massive speed. Fact. Not speculation or opinion.
> 
> If you mean that it is now better to fly than drive because it keeps a group of potentially infected people all heading home together in one container (plane) who will then (hopefully!) all quarantine when they disembark, I can kind of see where you might be coming from - but then.... not really?
> 
> Or is there another reason why the UK are taking steps to ban incoming flights from around the world?!
> 
> Motorhome - OK, you may need to stock up on bare essentials during transit - food, fuel, etc.
> But we are all having to do this at home in bricks and mortar too.
> And that doesn't always mean the luxury of home deliveries for anything and everything.
> Plenty of us have to occasionally venture outside the 4 walls whether we want to or not!
> 
> In a motorhome, by sticking to all the basic safety rules (keep your distance, don't touch your face before washing your hands & disinfect anything coming into your motorhome en route) you are doing everything that the rest of us are doing back in our bricks and mortar, other than our place of residence is immobile and a motorhome in transit isn't.
> 
> If you have no option on travelling, it is better to do it in isolated safety in a motorhome.
> That is way less risky than flying, imo.
> 
> Don't forget to spot the elephant in the room here - Mr H is a pretty good wind up merchant!
> Sitting in his cushty spot in France drinking wine and whisky and thumbing his nose at our shivery bums over the channel ... Mischief Man!


Yes i do mean you are not transporting virus across a country and it looks like they are quarantining people in hotels you have to think of what is good for population - i see it becoming a big problem and best thing is to look at the worst case scenario which is what i'm doing - and for people to say that it is acceptable to travel across countries is inconsiderate in my view - you cant just travel as and when it suits people in current situation


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Yes i do mean you are not transporting virus across a country and it looks like they are quarantining people in hotels you have to think of what is good for population - i see it becoming a big problem and best thing is to look at the worst case scenario which is what i'm doing - and for people to say that it is acceptable to travel across countries is inconsiderate in my view - you cant just travel as and when it suits people in current situation


Some travel is inevitable - or else you wouldn't eat. But the point that we are questioning is your claim it is safer to travel by air than in your own vehicle. That clearly makes no sense to most of us.


----------



## tidewatcher

It s interesting that all the arguments about safer travel in camper vans is dependant on how many actually do it. If everyone with a camper set off to europe  then it would be an obvious threat to the measures taken to control the virus. If very few do it then it is a smaller threat. The point is we would all like to travel and those actually setting off can only do so because the majority of us are acting responsibly. the difference in spelling between selfish and selfless is small but the difference in meaning is great.


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> Quarantine hotels are no fun Link but their benefits to all can be great. I know people who have caught covid whilst in them, but hopefully the UK ones will have suitable hygiene in place.



It seems that the UK government is about to announce that the hotels will only be for those travelling from "high risk" countries such as South Africa. That also makes no sense to me. Whatever your views on what should or should not be done, surely any system is only as strong as the weakest link and such a system has so many weak links it is difficult to know where to start. In the interests of balance, the Spanish system makes no sense either - entrants by sea or air are subject to severe restrictions but you can come in by road without anybody taking any interest in you at all!


----------



## John H

tidewatcher said:


> It s interesting that all the arguments about safer travel in camper vans is dependant on how many actually do it. If everyone with a camper set off to europe  then it would be an obvious threat to the measures taken to control the virus. If very few do it then it is a smaller threat. The point is we would all like to travel and those actually setting off can only do so because the majority of us are acting responsibly. the difference in spelling between selfish and selfless is small but the difference in meaning is great.


If I were in England now and wanting to come here, that would be irresponsible (as well as illegal). But those of us who came out when it was allowed will have to come back at some time. I don't think anybody is advocating travelling randomly wherever we want but there is a simple practicality that has to be faced and the safest way for us to get back is in our motorhomes.


----------



## tidewatcher

John H said:


> If I were in England now and wanting to come here, that would be irresponsible (as well as illegal). But those of us who came out when it was allowed will have to come back at some time. I don't think anybody is advocating travelling randomly wherever we want but there is a simple practicality that has to be faced and the safest way for us to get back is in our motorhomes.


Agreed, also many full timers are in a similar position regarding stay or move. My point is there are many who seem to be looking at heading off to fields afar by pushing the rules one way or another. As I mentioned in an earlier post when travel was allowed To France I headed over there for a couple of weeks. It just wasn’t the same and in my mind the balance of risk was not worth the reduced pleasure of a country under restrictions. In your case heading home in the van is the obvious answer where you can at have some control over your risks. To be honest the whole change In our lifestyle and expectation is A pain in the ......


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> Some travel is inevitable - or else you wouldn't eat. But the point that we are questioning is your claim it is safer to travel by air than in your own vehicle. That clearly makes no sense to most of us.


No i'm not saying safer for you i'm saying it is safer for other people in the countries you travel through which is why i'm saying worst case you may get no option other than direct flight home - you only have to look at how bad it is going - but as i've said i look at worst case scenario if i was where you was


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> It seems that the UK government is about to announce that the hotels will only be for those travelling from "high risk" countries such as South Africa. That also makes no sense to me. Whatever your views on what should or should not be done, surely any system is only as strong as the weakest link and such a system has so many weak links it is difficult to know where to start. In the interests of balance, the Spanish system makes no sense either - entrants by sea or air are subject to severe restrictions but you can come in by road without anybody taking any interest in you at all!



All that will do is just allow people to buck the system.  If you are not allowed to enter the uk from South Africa anyone determined enough from there will just find another stepping stone route.  It might slow things down a little but but the South African variant is already here. Once the genie is out of the bottle you cant put it back in.


----------



## barryd

mfw said:


> No i'm not saying safer for you i'm saying it is safer for other people in the countries you travel through which is why i'm saying worst case you may get no option other than direct flight home - you only have to look at how bad it is going - but as i've said i look at worst case scenario if i was where you was



I cant see how that can be safer. Lets say John has covid but doesnt know it (Sorry John).  He sets off home in his van, takes him three or four days to get up to Calais, stops on quiet aires fills up with diesel a few times (pays at pump as you do), gets on a ferry and hopefully its quiet and he socially distances.  How many people is he likely to infect compared to queuing in close contact at an airport and then being sat on a plane in close contact for three hours?

The two to me are massively different in risk to others.  Much safer to others him being in his own van surely


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> No i'm not saying safer for you i'm saying it is safer for other people in the countries you travel through which is why i'm saying worst case you may get no option other than direct flight home - you only have to look at how bad it is going - but as i've said i look at worst case scenario if i was where you was


Contact works both ways. If it is safer for us then it is safer for others too.

Sorry, Barry - I didn't see your excellent reply until I'd posted this


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> Contact works both ways. If it is safer for us then it is safer for others too.
> 
> Sorry, Barry - I didn't see your excellent reply until I'd posted this



Of course. You wouldnt get me on a plane right now if you paid me.  It would be crackers to force motorhomers onto planes. Just send them home if need be like before.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> Of course. You wouldnt get me on a plane right now if you paid me.  It would be crackers to force motorhomers onto planes. Just send them home if need be like before.


I totally agree. I am quite happy to isolate in whatever way the government decrees at the time - hotel quarantine included - but the one thing I would object to would be if the government ordered me to fly back instead of getting the ferry. To issue such an order would be sheer madness.


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> I totally agree. I am quite happy to isolate in whatever way the government decrees at the time - hotel quarantine included - but the one thing I would object to would be if the government ordered me to fly back instead of getting the ferry. To issue such an order would be sheer madness.



I wasnt joking when I suggested they use some of the Farage Garages (Kent lorry parks) for you motorhomers to isolate in.  If it comes to that of course. If they do decide to quarantine those of you returning from Spain (and its a big if) they probably need to plan something as there may well be a fair few motorhomes returning roughly around the same time unless they just forget about the Schengen rules.  Where are they going to put all those vans?

I suspect the most they will do is tell you to go home and isolate there.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> I wasnt joking when I suggested they use some of the Farage Garages (Kent lorry parks) for you motorhomers to isolate in.  If it comes to that of course. If they do decide to quarantine those of you returning from Spain (and its a big if) they probably need to plan something as there may well be a fair few motorhomes returning roughly around the same time unless they just forget about the Schengen rules.  Where are they going to put all those vans?
> 
> I suspect the most they will do is tell you to go home and isolate there.



I seem to remember that, during the first wave, a limited number of caravan sites were allowed to stay open for full-timers. It seems to me that if they want us to quarantine under their control then the obvious solution would be to do something similar, with a dedicated campsite near each of the ferry ports. We will be coming into Portsmouth, so I don't fancy travelling to Kent!


----------



## mfw

If france does not let you cross the border then what are you going to do unlikely but it could happen


----------



## antiquesam

Portugal is very likely to be included in countries on the list of those requiring to hotel quarantine because of its links to South America.


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> If france does not let you cross the border then what are you going to do unlikely but it could happen



Our ferry is from Bilbao!


----------



## mark61

I guess we'll worry about getting into France after recovering from the head injury caused by the Turtle that was dropped on his head by a low flying Albatros.


----------



## tidewatcher

This wrestling about having to fly back to the uk then stay in a hotel or drive back in your van is not so simple as first appears. After all if you are driving back what about getting rid of your grey water? That combined with the inevitable fridge problem and problem finding lpg sites let alone the old bio tabs or loo blue makes the whole trip a potential minefield.


----------



## John H

tidewatcher said:


> This wrestling about having to fly back to the uk then stay in a hotel or drive back in your van is not so simple as first appears. After all if you are driving back what about getting rid of your grey water? That combined with the inevitable fridge problem and problem finding lpg sites let alone the old bio tabs or loo blue makes the whole trip a potential minefield.


At the moment, campsites in Spain are open. When we travelled north last March, campsites were closed but aires were open (some of them with electricity). LPG was not a problem because garages were open, so we filled up here in Almeria and had more than enough to last us back to the UK, even though we drove through France to the Channel. This time we will be sailing from Bilbao, so it should be even easier - especially since we carry several months worth of loo-chem!


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> I seem to remember that, during the first wave, a limited number of caravan sites were allowed to stay open for full-timers. It seems to me that if they want us to quarantine under theri control then the obvious solution would be to do something similar, with a dedicated campsite near each of the ferry ports. We will be coming into Portsmouth, so I don't fancy travelling to Kent!



Ah ri


John H said:


> At the moment, campsites in Spain are open. When we travelled north last March, campsites were closed but aires were open (some of them with electricity). LPG was not a problem because garages were open, so we filled up here in Almeria and had more than enough to last us back to the UK, even though we drove through France to the Channel. This time we will be sailing from Bilbao, so it should be even easier - especially since we carry several months worth of loo-chem!



LOL! I assumed Tidewatchers post was a joke. Least I hope it was.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> Ah ri
> 
> 
> LOL! I assumed Tidewatchers post was a joke. Least I hope it was.


I  think I need to get out more!


----------



## tidewatcher

John H said:


> I  think I need to get out more!


Oh yes, just thought things needed lifting a little.........


----------



## brian c

As was pointed out to me. When I said I was going to take Moho out for a run. Brakes batts etc.      What if while you are out some idiot smashes into your Moho. And possibly police. Ambulance. Fire service are involved. Also breakdown. Recovery. How many people now involved. 15. 20.     Suppose one has no symptoms but is a carrier.  Now possibly 20 people with COVID plus all they are then in contact with.      All because I wanted to give Moho a run.  I know this is extreme.  But I have found that the extremes seem to happen to often     Anyhow made me change my mind about using Moho.  Even just going to shops it could happen.   Ok I won’t go to shops   Hold on I want to eat ,,,,        ..........  brian’


----------



## antiquesam

On that basis you walk down to the corner to stretch your legs. You cross a road and a bus knocks you down. Police, ambulance, fire brigade, bus full of passengers, eyeballers. Perhaps it's best just to brick up the doors and not come out.


----------



## brian c

Strange things happen. Dustbin lorry crashing in to crowd comes to mind.  Bet the people he hit now wish they had stayed in.


----------



## mark61

I'll come into more contact using tube or bus than I will if van breaks down.
But they are still handing out parking tickets so I'll use tube when I have to.


----------



## John H

brian c said:


> Strange things happen. Dustbin lorry crashing in to crowd comes to mind.  Bet the people he hit now wish they had stayed in.


You stay in, fall asleep while the chip pan is on the stove, the house burns down and all those firefighters, paramedics and neighbours who rush to help are exposed to the virus you are carrying. Bloody selfish of you, don't you think?


----------



## tidewatcher

Or then again someone sets off for “exercise” on a paddle board, gets into trouble and the lifeboat rescues them. The casualty is found to be C19 positive even though a symptomatic resulting in a good proportion of the volunteer crew having to self isolate for ten days. Never confuse genuine accidents with selfish acts. the quotes of bin lorries and chip pans are not the same as doing something you do not need to do, they are accidents which are a part of normal activity. And if you see my title then yes the above actual.


----------



## Derekoak

tidewatcher said:


> Or then again someone sets off for “exercise” on a paddle board, gets into trouble and the lifeboat rescues them. The casualty is found to be C19 positive even though a symptomatic resulting in a good proportion of the volunteer crew having to self isolate for ten days. Never confuse genuine accidents with selfish acts. the quotes of bin lorries and chip pans are not the same as doing something you do not need to do, they are accidents which are a part of normal activity. And if you see my title then yes the above actual.


At this point the paddleboarder is being selfish. It can be quite a dangerous way to exercise. When John went to Spain it was totally legal, and much safer than paddleboarding. It arguably reduced the Uk infection possibilities. I am sure he sees his trip as "normal activity" and needed for his sanity.
  if I go out for my local run which even now is totally legal and recommended to keep fit to reduce pressure on the NHS.  I too just might need rescuing. The chances are small and a tiny increase in one risk is a price worth paying for a clear improvement in other risks.
 The issue is what do you need to do? The main rule to decide that is act within the law, and balance the risks to society in general. In my opinion your paddleboarder did not and John and I did balance the risks.
 By the way congratulations on having an interesting job.


----------



## barryd

Does anyone know if my daily exercise of Tiddlywinks is allowed please?  I am worried I could put my eye out or my Wifes and need to call an ambulance and this would be deemed a selfish activity by the social media Covid Police.   What about Jigsaws?


----------



## tidewatcher

Derekoak said:


> At this point the paddleboarder is being selfish. It can be quite a dangerous way to exercise. When John went to Spain it was totally legal, and much safer than paddleboarding. It arguably reduced the Uk infection possibilities. I am sure he sees his trip as "normal activity" and needed for his sanity.
> if I go out for my local run which even now is totally legal and recommended to keep fit to reduce pressure on the NHS.  I too just might need rescuing. The chances are small and a tiny increase in one risk is a price worth paying for a clear improvement in other risks.
> The issue is what do you need to do? The main rule to decide that is act within the law, and balance the risks to society in general. In my opinion your paddleboarder did not and John and I did balance the risks.
> By the way congratulations on having an interesting job.


Agree, by the way now retired but still associated, you never really leave. It is the spurious examples which annoy me, jigsaws, tiddlywinks? Come on to use extreme examples to prove a point normally proves you do not have a point. Stay within the law, only do something if it is within the law and necessary. Talking to an ex colleague who is a paramedic, absolutely at the end of his tether with the actions of some. His take On the situation was that while you have people who as soon as a rule is brought out look for a way around it then the virus willl keep killing people. The virus dies of loneliness.


----------



## John H

tidewatcher said:


> It is the spurious examples which annoy me, jigsaws, tiddlywinks?



I think you'll find that those spurious examples were deliberately used to show the pointlessness of taking an argument to extremes - that is certainly what I was doing with my chip-pan intervention.


----------



## antiquesam

John H said:


> I think you'll find that those spurious examples were deliberately used to show the pointlessness of taking an argument to extremes - that is certainly what I was doing with my chip-pan intervention.


Similarly I don't anticipate many bricking up their doors


----------



## tidewatcher

Okey dokey. It’s a bit raw at the moment.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

tidewatcher said:


> Okey dokey. It’s a bit raw at the moment.



Think you've hit the nail there 
Everyone is jumpy and fatigued in one way or another.
We all need to remember to stay kind (and sane!)


----------



## barryd

I imagine most people on here are sensible and not looking for ways to get around the rules.  My comments were of course as always a bit of fun in these dark times and not meant to offend anyone.  Not many of us are in the first flushes of youth so naturally most of us will be cautious anyway.  I dont think us motorhomers are the problem.  Whether we be hiding out in Spain in our vans or trying to puff up the hill on our push bikes for a bit of exercise.  I doubt many of us would be daft enough to set out to sea on a paddle board right now.

We drive to local places for my wife to do a bit of walking and thats about it.  Nothing much is different here really. The only thing we dont know is what the government defines as local as they wont tell us.


----------



## witzend

barryd said:


> We drive to local places for my wife to do a bit of walking and thats about it. The only thing we dont know is what the government defines as local as they wont tell us.


Thats the question We need answered as well 2 policemen in a car wouldn't tell me either


----------



## mark61

witzend said:


> Thats the question We need answered as well 2 policemen in a car wouldn't tell me either


 
I don't.


----------



## Fazerloz

witzend said:


> Thats the question We need answered as well 2 policemen in a car wouldn't tell me either



Don't worry they will tell you when they see you and no longer consider you to be local.


----------



## REC

barryd said:


> Does anyone know if my daily exercise of Tiddlywinks is allowed please?  I am worried I could put my eye out or my Wifes and need to call an ambulance and this would be deemed a selfish activity by the social media Covid Police.   What about Jigsaws?


You are supposed to be kind and not make digs at mr brown who notably did some damage a while ago with a jig ( well something to do with woodwork anyway)


----------



## 2cv

Personal choice, but as soon as the FCO issued do not travel abroad advice I headed home asap. The advice is still in force nearly a year later.


----------



## mfw

Personally i'm sticking to within 10 miles of home in whatever vehicle i decide to use but that is my choice and i'm careful i hope


----------



## 2cv

Hardly anyone is travelling in EU now, but new restrictions today in various countries. Link


----------



## 2cv

Just read the latest from China! Link


----------



## Haaamster

Looks like the Irish won't be going anywhere till at least after next Christmas 









						Covid-19: International travel may not be possible by Christmas – Varadkar
					

Experts are concerned about travel due to new, more transmissible variants of virus




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## mariesnowgoose

2cv said:


> Just read the latest from China! Link



The mind boggles! Hope they don't start testing like that over here...    

Although I reckon from some of the posts that go up there's a few in here might enjoy it


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Haaamster said:


> Looks like the Irish won't be going anywhere till at least after next Christmas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: International travel may not be possible by Christmas – Varadkar
> 
> 
> Experts are concerned about travel due to new, more transmissible variants of virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com



Let's face it, until we get mass vaccination achieved around the globe all sorts of restrictions are going to stay in place.


----------



## mark61

mariesnowgoose said:


> The mind boggles! Hope they don't start testing like that over here...



Thats why our media are reporting on it now, get us used to the idea.   
Been doing it a while in China, probably why their numbers are down.


----------



## John H

2cv said:


> Hardly anyone is travelling in EU now, but new restrictions today in various countries. Link


Tell that to the Germans - there seem to be a lot of them on the move down here!


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Strange you should say that, @John H

I have been wasting an hour of my life most days watching "A New Life in the Sun".

It has followed the progress of various ex-pats around Europe - in France, Spain, Italy and Portugal with their new business ventures over the last 18 months or so. Surprisingly they all appeared to be doing quite well at the end of it, in spite of the pandemic and lockdowns.

But I have noticed a more relaxed approach in all the 4 countries mentioned compared to the UK - or maybe I'm just imagining it?

A couple of London expats running a new restaurant in the Algarve, for example.
Didn't look like there was any requirement to socially distance diners, and once they got going were packed out - NB. mostly locals, not tourists.

Same with a couple of guys from Seaham who sold up their seafront cafe to buy a bar/restaurant in the Spanish costas.
The place was soon heaving (with Brits!) summer 2020 and earning them a good crust, again no social distancing and very little mask wearing.
Of course, how long that will last if international travel is banned who knows?

Interesting that all of the expats involved stated they had no intention of ever returning to the UK.
Most said they wished they'd done it years ago.
Every one of them has applied (and gained) resident status in their chosen country.


----------



## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> Strange you should say that, @John H
> 
> I have been wasting an hour of my life most days watching "A New Life in the Sun".
> 
> It has followed the progress of various ex-pats around Europe - in France, Spain, Italy and Portugal with their new business ventures over the last 18 months or so. Surprisingly they all appeared to be doing quite well at the end of it, in spite of the pandemic and lockdowns.
> 
> But I have noticed a more relaxed approach in all the 4 countries mentioned compared to the UK - or maybe I'm just imagining it?
> 
> A couple of London expats running a new restaurant in the Algarve, for example.
> Didn't look like there was any requirement to socially distance diners, and once they got going were packed out - NB. mostly locals, not tourists.
> 
> Same with a couple of guys from Seaham who sold up their seafront cafe in Seaham to buy a bar/restaurant in the Spanish costas.
> The place was soon heaving (with Brits!) and earning them a good crust, again no social distancing and very little mask wearing.
> Of course, how long that will last if international travel is banned who knows?
> 
> Interesting that all of the expats involved stated they had no intention of ever returning to the UK.
> Most said they wished they'd done it years ago.
> Every one of them has applied (and gained) resident status in their chosen country.



I can only comment on the areas we passed through to get here but on our journey through France and Spain last October and during our time here  in Almeria Province since, I can't say I have noticed a more relaxed attitude. In fact, there seems to be a much more serious attitude to the rules. Everybody wears masks all the time when they are not on their own property/pitch. The only exceptions are when you are seated at a table in a restaurant/bar and capacity is reduced to about 30% of normal, so there is plenty of space. If anyone is seen without a mask they are immediately hauled up by others. Mind you, we are not in the Costas, where your programme was filmed and I have noticed that elderly ladies don't pay much attention to distancing in supermarkets!


----------



## 2cv

mark61 said:


> Thats why our media are reporting on it now, get us used to the idea.
> Been doing it a while in China, probably why their numbers are down.



There are still daily flights to China, mainly to transport PPE back. To enter China can often take several hours with much testing, followed by a policed bus journey to a poor quality hotel with room confinement until time to return to UK. There have been one or two positive tests despite having had a negative test before departure. This leads to confinement in a covid hospital for what can be a prolonged time. The flights are operated by volunteers, no flights no PPE.


----------



## mfw

See france is shutting border to non EU citizens on sunday saw that coming


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> See france is shutting border to non EU citizens on sunday saw that coming


In effect, they have done that already - certainly no-one has been allowed in from the UK (unless they are resident in the EU) since 20th December.


----------



## mfw

John H said:


> In effect, they have done that already - certainly no-one has been allowed in from the UK (unless they are resident in the EU) since 20th December.


Yes the problem is for non eu resident travel - your next problem could well be the 90 day rule and an excuse may or may not work and i do think the people out there will have to be well prepared for the possible problems - i hope it does get better but cant really see that happening


----------



## John H

mfw said:


> Yes the problem is for non eu resident travel - your next problem could well be the 90 day rule and an excuse may or may not work and i do think the people out there will have to be well prepared for the possible problems - i hope it does get better but cant really see that happening


The French statement is that they will close all non-EU borders, so anyone already in the EU will still be able to travel through France. Our ferry is booked from Spain but if we have to revert to a ferry out of France then transit will still be allowed. The 90 day rule has been known about for several years and so is not a new problem. Anyone here who hasn't taken account of it has only themselves to blame.


----------



## mark61

Might as well have the official info. 

https://uk.ambafrance.org/COVID-19-new-rules-for-travel-to-France-and-the-UK


----------



## John H

mark61 said:


> Might as well have the official info.
> 
> https://uk.ambafrance.org/COVID-19-new-rules-for-travel-to-France-and-the-UK


Those are the current rules - mfw was referring to the new rules coming into force on Sunday. But a useful link.


----------



## REC

The official information is always good to have but can be hard to winkle out rules for transit through from Spain to France, easy to find rules for return from France to Uk.  It will all have been revised again by end of March anyway. And I do feel sure that delays due to Covid will be factored in to Schenghen.


----------



## yeoblade

mariesnowgoose said:


> Strange you should say that, @John H
> 
> I have been wasting an hour of my life most days watching "A New Life in the Sun".
> 
> It has followed the progress of various ex-pats around Europe - in France, Spain, Italy and Portugal with their new business ventures over the last 18 months or so. Surprisingly they all appeared to be doing quite well at the end of it, in spite of the pandemic and lockdowns.
> 
> But I have noticed a more relaxed approach in all the 4 countries mentioned compared to the UK - or maybe I'm just imagining it?
> 
> A couple of London expats running a new restaurant in the Algarve, for example.
> Didn't look like there was any requirement to socially distance diners, and once they got going were packed out - NB. mostly locals, not tourists.
> 
> Same with a couple of guys from Seaham who sold up their seafront cafe in Seaham to buy a bar/restaurant in the Spanish costas.
> The place was soon heaving (with Brits!) and earning them a good crust, again no social distancing and very little mask wearing.
> Of course, how long that will last if international travel is banned who knows?
> 
> Interesting that all of the expats involved stated they had no intention of ever returning to the UK.
> Most said they wished they'd done it years ago.
> Every one of them has applied (and gained) resident status in their chosen country.


I too have, I'm somewhat surprised that with a few exceptions, UK expats believe they can either, run a B&B or Bar/Restaurant, when they have ,mostly, never had any experience of it in the UK and often don't even speak the local lingo and seem quiet naïve or maybe happy to 'wing it'. Or have done little basic business requirements checks. i.e. not knowing they would need a permit to stable and run a pony riding school in Italy.  However a few do have different interesting well though out ideas.
I wonder how many are still getting by now as Winter AND Covid strike together.
We have/were been looking to buy and semi-retire in France for a while now but I think Covid/Brexit has pretty much kicked that into touch now.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

yeoblade said:


> We have/were been looking to buy and semi-retire in France for a while now but I think Covid/Brexit has pretty much kicked that into touch now.



Don't see why it needs to be kicked into touch.

OK, it might be a bit more difficult and longwinded to do it now with a full blown pandemic on the go, but surely still achievable?


----------



## John H

Just found this directive from the EU, last updated two days ago, in which member states are instructed to give authorisation for legal stay to any third country visa-waived national who is compelled to stay beyond 90 days.  Travel during the coronavirus pandemic | European Commission (europa.eu) So that removes the necessity to do anything further in the event of force majeure. All we need now is for the ferries to be cancelled and we can stay forever!


----------



## REC

John H said:


> Just found this directive from the EU, last updated two days ago, in which member states are instructed to give authorisation for legal stay to any third country visa-waived national who is compelled to stay beyond 90 days.  Travel during the coronavirus pandemic | European Commission (europa.eu) So that removes the necessity to do anything further in the event of force majeure. All we need now is for the ferries to be cancelled and we can stay forever!


I read that several times...do you take it to mean that, for instance, if you have to overstay due to ferry cancellation, " the competent authorities" have to issue you with a visa or temporary residence. Does seem that some documentation will be required. Wonder whether they would give residence document since there isn't another option already in situ. I don't suppose the member states have yet decided how they will act on this EU recommendation! Be watching with interest. But , as said before, so much can happen by March.


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## John H

REC said:


> I read that several times...do you take it to mean that, for instance, if you have to overstay due to ferry cancellation, " the competent authorities" have to issue you with a visa or temporary residence. Does seem that some documentation will be required. Wonder whether they would give residence document since there isn't another option already in situ. I don't suppose the member states have yet decided how they will act on this EU recommendation! Be watching with interest. But , as said before, so much can happen by March.


As you say, a lot can happen between now and the end of March but I read it to mean that the stay will be automatically extended without you having to do anything other than prove your ferry was cancelled but time will tell. Elsewhere in the document it also says that any overstay due to Covid will not cause you to be penalised for any future trips to the EU, which is encouraging because, under normal circumstances, they can ban you for up to five years for overstaying!  .


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## jeffmossy

2cv said:


> Just read the latest from China! Link



I nominate Ral to help out with this , just for testing purpose , obviously


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## mariesnowgoose

jeffmossy said:


> I nominate Ral to help out with this , just for testing purpose , obviously



@izwozral


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## myvanwy

Am I the only one finding this slightly erotic?


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## maingate

myvanwy said:


> Am I the only one finding this slightly erotic?



Is that cos' you are Welsh?


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## mariesnowgoose

maingate said:


> Is that cos' you are Welsh?



Nah. That would have to be a sheep, Jim, not a duck


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## maingate

mariesnowgoose said:


> Nah. That would have to be a sheep, Jim, not a duck



Ooohh, that will get banned Marie.


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## tidewatcher

myvanwy said:


> Am I the only one finding this slightly erotic?


Actually not until you mentioned it..........


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## maingate

Just for clarity, I am part Welsh and am not saying anything about my urges feelings.


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## 2cv

Maybe eventually this sort of thing will make international travel easier. Link


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## barryd

2cv said:


> Maybe eventually this sort of thing will make international travel easier. Link



That may be an unwise decision unless the country opening up travel has vaccinated most of its own citizens because we dont know yet if vaccinated people can still spread the virus.


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## REC

__ https://www.facebook.com/294315650682033/posts/3646660338780864
			




Not a great translation, but reiterates those returning to main residence country are still allowed to transit " in a straight line" ! Not that we plan to be going anywhere but think this illustrates that routes back to UK will still be ok subject to tests and quarantine. No mention of leaving van there and flying back...
Rules reviewed every couple of weeks and we find safe communities Portugal is a good place to get current information.


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## jagmanx

So we are all gradually becoming "The Prisoners of Covid".
I have no gripe with any of the countries imposing travel restrictions. 
Until the vaccine(s) are in place (and shown to be effective)  for the vast majority of the population of most European countries (geographically ie UK included)..It is the only way to attempt to decrease the death toll.
It appears therefore that as was the case in April 2020 most air travel is grounded and leisure travel as well
SO BE IT !
Given the current situation It is most unlikely that we will be able to retun to UK this year..As that involves us living in the vehicle.
Probably illegal but more importantly very unpleasant !..I will inform the various rally organisers later but in good time !
No complaints just common sense !


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## Fazerloz

Who would bet on the EU saying the UK vaccines do not comply as the doses were not given within the manufacturers specified times.


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## Poacher

2cv said:


> Just read the latest from China! Link



What the article doesn’t mention is that the Chinese government have provided proof that the process is entirely safe.


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## TonyEmm

John H said:


> . Firstly, we are not on holiday; we are living in the same way as we would at home only in a warmer, healthier and safer environment..


*holiday
[ˈhɒlɪdeɪ]*

NOUN

(holidays)
an extended period of leisure and recreation, especially one spent away from home or in travelling.


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## jagmanx

Retirement noun
Living without working !


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## John H

TonyEmm said:


> *holiday
> [ˈhɒlɪdeɪ]*
> 
> NOUN
> 
> (holidays)
> an extended period of leisure and recreation, especially one spent away from home or in travelling.


Our home is our motorhome, so we are not away from home


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## tidewatcher

jagmanx said:


> Retirement noun
> Living without working !


I think it should be “living without being paid to work”. The list of maintenance tasks, house updating tasks, Motorhome tweaks etc. Is endless. In my opinion you need to get a bigger diary when you retire.


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## 2cv

Return to the UK sounds rather chaotic. Link


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## Pauljenny

500th post 
 Nice being marooned , locked down, in a nice ,safe place..
But it's been nearly a year.
When can we plan to drive back to South Manchester.?


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## 2cv

Pauljenny said:


> 500th post
> Nice being marooned , locked down, in a nice ,safe place..
> But it's been nearly a year.
> When can we plan to drive back to South Manchester.?



I think you’ll get back to South Manchester a fair bit before we get back to our beloved California.


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## Pauljenny

2cv said:


> I think you’ll get back to South Manchester a fair bit before we get back to our beloved California.


Sad, but true,
But if we both manage it simultaneously, you'll be in a far better place than us.
Really don't fancy being incarcerated in the scruffy Brittania Hotel for even 1 day.
Mustn't grumble.


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## mariesnowgoose

Pauljenny said:


> 500th post
> Nice being marooned , locked down, in a nice ,safe place..
> But it's been nearly a year.
> *When can we plan to drive back to South Manchester.?*



I wouldn't rush to get back, Paul. 

The Hacienda no longer exists, I believe?
No drugs to be found there, nothing to see, move along please...


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## REC

Pauljenny said:


> Sad, but true,
> But if we both manage it simultaneously, you'll be in a far better place than us.
> Really don't fancy being incarcerated in the scruffy Brittania Hotel for even 1 day.
> Mustn't grumble.


Can't be incarcerated in hotel at any of the ports only at eight locations which are airports! No hotels at ferry or tunnel sites,  apparently it hasn't occurred to anyone that you can drive from Portugal ( red list) in less than ten days so should be in managed quarantine. The gov site says you can only enter at one of the airports... Hopefully Portugal will come off the list soon.


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## colinm

REC said:


> Can't be incarcerated in hotel at any of the ports only at eight locations which are airports! No hotels at ferry or tunnel sites,  apparently it hasn't occurred to anyone that you can drive from Portugal ( red list) in less than ten days so should be in managed quarantine. The gov site says you can only enter at one of the airports... Hopefully Portugal will come off the list soon.


But as I posted before, if there are no restrictions in Spain and/or France, then you can leave Portugal and spend 10 days getting to Calais.
I caught something on news earlier today, I may have got this wrong, but it seemed to suggest if you are a Scottish resident returning from a red list country via England you could travel up to your place of quarantine(your house) in Scotland even if this was on public transport!


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## REC

colinm said:


> But as I posted before, if there are no restrictions in Spain and/or France, then you can leave Portugal and spend 10 days getting to Calais.
> I caught something on news earlier today, I may have got this wrong, but it seemed to suggest if you are a Scottish resident returning from a red list country via England you could travel up to your place of quarantine(your house) in Scotland even if this was on public transport!


Assuming that Spain and France allow you to wander round for several days?I
Haven't seen the Scottish resident suggestion. Maybe someone in government will work it out for England, Wales as well.


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## 2cv

REC said:


> Assuming that Spain and France allow you to wander round for several days?I
> Haven't seen the Scottish resident suggestion. Maybe someone in government will work it out for England, Wales as well.



Arriving in Scotland from any country outside the CTA means hotel quarantine. This has resulted in very few direct arrivals since it was introduced, and some confusion in that the first arrival quarantined in a hotel in Scotland had arrived from USA (not red) via Dublin (in the CTA) so should have been allowed to self quarantine at home. Link 
The fact that you can arrive in Scotland via the CTA without hotel quarantine has led to threats to close the border with England. Link
Scotland is pushing for the whole of the UK to require hotel quarantine for all arrivals, but seems unlikely to achieve this.
Where hotel quarantine is required in England at present, the hotel booking has to be made before departure, so since there are no arrangements at sea ports it is only possible to arrive at a designated airport by air.


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## mfw

Like it or not the quarantine rules are to protect all which is good - and if it gets life back to normal sooner rather than later i'm all for it - people will have to bite the bullet and accept the price for having a bit of freedom - most of us have been tied down due to not tough enough restrictions and want to see an end in sight


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## Pauljenny

REC said:


> Can't be incarcerated in hotel at any of the ports only at eight locations which are airports! No hotels at ferry or tunnel sites,  apparently it hasn't occurred to anyone that you can drive from Portugal ( red list) in less than ten days so should be in managed quarantine. The gov site says you can only enter at one of the airports... Hopefully Portugal will come off the list soon.


Just heard from the Algarve Councils News feed
Near the Spanish Border, they are at " Extremely Elevated risk."
The small, inland town, where we normally shop, is category lower...High Elevated Risk


The big coastal town, is now re- classified as Elevated risk, after being a hotspot through Xmas and New year.
That's where we'll be doing our next shopping... Every 10 days.
Looks like we won't be going anywhere  for a good while.
The National State of emergency has been extended until the month end.
.


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## 2cv

It looks like the red list is likely to get longer. Link


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## mariesnowgoose

Pauljenny said:


> Just heard from the Algarve Councils News feed
> Near the Spanish Border, they are at " Extremely Elevated risk."
> The small, inland town, where we normally shop, is category lower...High Elevated Risk
> 
> 
> The big coastal town, is now re- classified as Elevated risk, after being a hotspot through Xmas and New year.
> That's where we'll be doing our next shopping... Every 10 days.
> Looks like we won't be going anywhere  for a good while.
> The National State of emergency has been extended until the month end.
> .



Paul, keep yourself amused by taunting the rest of us in blighty even more than usual (turn your smug filter off!)  

That should help keep your spirits up a bit


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## Pauljenny

mariesnowgoose said:


> Paul, keep yourself amused by taunting the rest of us in blighty even more than usual (turn your smug filter off!)
> 
> That should help keep your spirits up a bit



Smug filter.... 
I haven't used it since Xmas.
. Honest. !


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## 2cv

It may be a good time to leave Spain if subject to the 90 day Schengen limit, as it’s likely to be included soon on the red list Link. This would give a choice between overstaying Schengen limits with possible consequences or abandoning the van and taking two flights (direct flights not allowed) to a designated airport for hotel quarantine. At present it’s possible to return by ferry from both Spain and France, subject to a negative covid test and home quarantine.


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## QFour

From other forums it would seem getting Covid Tests can be a bit of a pain in France. Anyone who arrived in Schengen Area before 1st Jan has until the 31st March to leave the Area. Looks like Spain is getting tough. Anyone who has been refused leave to stay or has not applied is expected to be out of the country by 31st March or risk being deported.


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## Markd

How will anyone know where overstayers are to deport them?
I saw onthe TV that quite a few of those with houses missed the cut off date for applying - I guess the authorities may know some of these but anyone in a van could be anywhere.


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## Snapster

Markd said:


> How will anyone know where overstayers are to deport them?
> I saw onthe TV that quite a few of those with houses missed the cut off date for applying - I guess the authorities may know some of these but anyone in a van could be anywhere.


I suppose they could be flagged up when they pass through border controls at the ferry / tunnel. They could risk a fine or a ban on re entering the Schengen zone. 
Of course, you will be more likely to be stopped by police or customs driving a UK reg van and it will be up to you to prove you haven’t overstayed your welcome.


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## Markd

If you're boarding a ferry that sounds a bit like self deportation 
Being picked up on the move for some sort of random check does seem to be the most likely way of being picked up if you decide to overstay


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## 2cv

Green cards no longer needed. Link


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## myvanwy

Thats great. Just gotta work on the foodstuffs next.


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