# Jimmy Carrs tax avoidance



## vindiboy (Jun 21, 2012)

Jimmy Carr has admitted tax avoidance, all legal apparently, good for him, if a legal loophole is there why not use it, Dave [ Cameron ] says he is morally wrong to avoid tax, that sounds good coming from him, If the Dipsticks in the Tax  Offices and Government allow these loopholes  they should expect them to be used , wish I had found them earlier.:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:


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## Dezi (Jun 21, 2012)

Hi vindiboy,

I totally disagree.

Dezi c:


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## vindiboy (Jun 21, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Hi vindiboy,
> 
> I totally disagree.
> 
> Dezi c:


    I have no problem with that.


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## mikeandhismotorhome (Jun 21, 2012)

Wonder if Dave will be banging on about corporations avoiding tax (ebay amazon etc) or
is he just picking on individuals.


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## David & Ann (Jun 21, 2012)

Strictly my opinion. I cannot see the point of Jimmy Carr excepting it as a Tax avoidance. If it is and I believe it is legal what his accountants have done. David Cameron, I feel, was out of order to come on National TV and make a statement whereby he indicated that Jimmy Carr had made an error on moral grounds. If I were Jimmy Carr, I would seek legal advice from my Lawyer whether I have or have not, grounds to sue Cameron for Libel or Slander. Lastly, Hipocrisy comes to mind not only from the Prime Minister but from most leading Politicans. Your thoughts and comments please.


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## maingate (Jun 21, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Hi vindiboy,
> 
> I totally disagree.
> 
> Dezi c:



The Tax man will never catch up with you Dexy. You are far too cunning for him. :ninja:


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## Randonneur (Jun 21, 2012)

Before our prime minister lectures other people on tax avoidance issues, ( advised by his accountant don't forget ). I would suggest he needs to look closer to home and get his own house, ie:- government, in order first!

Who, honestly, would elect to pay more tax than they really had to??


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## John H (Jun 21, 2012)

When a system allows those who earn over £1 million per year to pay less tax than those on average incomes then it is the system that needs hauling over the coals, not the individuals who take advantage of the system (perfectly legally). After all, how many of us, when spotting a £10 note in the street would say "thanks very much" and how many would hand it in at the local police station? It is Mr Cameron who should be ashamed of himself, not Jimmy Carr - and when he's stopped feeling embarrassed he should then do something about it.


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## fishy & Nina (Jun 21, 2012)

:ditto:
Absolutely the system at fault as it has been for years!
If Jimmy Carr has done nothing illegal then I suggest that there are many more people in the same position (not me I hasten to add - I couldn't even afford the accountancy bill......).  
In my view he may have done us mere mortals a service in that it really is out there for debate now, and there is a chance to bear pressure on the politicians, of all parties, who allow this to happen!
With my cynical head on (just call me Worzel G.), I can hear them stoking up the old argument of 'if we tax them too much they'll all move abroad'!   
Hmmmm, now there's an idea:boat:


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 21, 2012)

*Bloody cheek of Cameron.*

Attacking Jimmy Carr for tax avoidance, which I do not like, when his major donors are tax avoiders or are non doms or even like Ashcroft who claim to pay UK tax to get his Lordship whilst staying non dom.
Carr is not breaking the law in any way. Avoidance needs to be tackled rather than picking out individuals because they do not donate to the Tory party.


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## Deleted member 21686 (Jun 21, 2012)

basildog said:


> I used to work for very wealthy people and never had a cheque or payment from a uk based bank !
> They do not even own their own houses as they wrap them up in trust funds so it is true the wealthy pay tiny amounts of tax .
> A friend of mine works for some foreign royals whose luggage is not checked as they enter uk so the staff all bring tobacco over on the royal jet ! Amazing how money talks



Bas this will be in that comic they call the Sun tomorrow!


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## Dezi (Jun 21, 2012)

Hi, I have to say that I am a little saddened, but not overly surprised by the majority of comments here.

The reason that I am not really surprised is that when you have been married for many, many, many, years to a chartered accountant who spent twenty five years 

running her own company specialising in tax compliance then you tend to experience every nuance, connivance & misunderstanding from both sides.

Dezi  c:


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## maingate (Jun 21, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Hi, I have to say that I am a little saddened, but not overly surprised by the majority of comments here.
> 
> The reason that I am not really surprised is that when you have been married for many, many, many, years to a chartered accountant who spent twenty five years
> 
> ...



You will also notice Dezi that I have not joined in the condemnation. 


Ahem, I paid zero UK Income Tax for many a year but it was all legal and above board.


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## scampa (Jun 21, 2012)

I suspect that Cameron made that remark in the hope that we (the general public, not wildcampers!) would get the impression that he and his government believed in fair play by everyone, however wealthy they may be. 

I now hope and expect that the media will have a field-day rooting out his fellow MPs and cronies who have been using similar loopholes for years.  Labour have already pointed out the fact that Conservative supporter Gary Barlow OBE has been using a similar tax avoidance scheme as Jimmy Carr, but Cameron declined to talk about him!

BBC News - Cameron ducks Gary Barlow tax avoidance question


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 21, 2012)




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## n brown (Jun 21, 2012)

i may be wrong but i think jimmy apologised as quickly as he did,and quite cleverly phrased i think,to avoid being unfairly ripped apart by the media,who need to sell papers and the leveson inquiry seems to be a bit difficult for them to write about,casting them in a bad light and celebs as victims of bullies.this could be the start of an anti celeb campaign.hows that for conspiracy theory ?


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## Dezi (Jun 21, 2012)

Hi, sorry if it was complicated. 

I  made two points.

A] I was saddened by the reaction of the majority of replies.

B] I was not unduly surprised. 

Dezi  c:


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 21, 2012)

Sorry, I will get the missis to slap my legs , on your behalf.


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## Dezi (Jun 21, 2012)

maingate said:


> You will also notice Dezi that I have not joined in the condemnation.





maingate said:


> Ahem, I paid zero UK Income Tax for many a year but it was all legal and above board.



I did notice young Mainwaring. I also noticed that old shifty from Doncaster has stayed out of it.

Probably in the Channel Isles right now trying to offload the last of his old white fivers to some  bemused bank official.

Dezi c:


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## Dezi (Jun 21, 2012)

Saddened by the attitude of "get away with it if you can"

I explained fully why I was not unduly surprised. 

Dezi   c:


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## John H (Jun 21, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Saddened by the attitude of "get away with it if you can"
> 
> I explained fully why I was not unduly surprised.
> 
> Dezi   c:



Our entire legal system is based upon "get away with it if you can". The law in the UK does not lay out what we should do but lays out what we shouldn't. Thus if there are glaring loopholes in the "what we shouldn't" bit then it is up to our lords and masters to change the bloody law - don't blame the rest of us for following the law. As for human nature, then there is no disagreement - we are not a very moral or pleasant bunch on the whole - maybe it's time to admit the experiment failed


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## DRoader (Jun 21, 2012)

It would appear that David Cameron owes some of his own family fortune to tax avoidance schemes set up by his father. Oh the irony - Cameron family fortune made in tax havens | Politics | The Guardian



> David Cameron's father set up offshore investment funds which explicitly boasted of their ability to remain outside UK tax jurisdiction.
> 
> David Cameron's father ran a network of offshore investment funds to help build the family fortune that paid for the prime minister's inheritance, the Guardian can reveal.
> 
> Though entirely legal, the funds were set up in tax havens such as Panama City and Geneva, and explicitly boasted of their ability to remain outside UK tax jurisdiction.


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## sean rua (Jun 21, 2012)

Just three points from me:

a) "the law is an ass" and it's purpose is to ensure that the working class do the donkey work.

b) "Money goes to money" and the rich look after the rich. Why wouldn't they? Nothing new there.

c) I have no TV and have never even heard of the so-called celebrities in question.
 What surprises me is that while we are constantly told that there is a terrible recession and that ordinary folk should tighten their belts and take a good big dose of austerity to help the banks and save the "country "( they mean the rich people), these folk seem to have been able to amass huge fortunes from the "entertainment industry".
 Obviously, I can't figure out how, but it would appear to me that many, good, hardworking, men have gone to the wall during the same period.

Personally, I have no wish to put any money into any of these guys pockets - and that includes Dave's! 
Not a bit of wonder that the fabric of society is falling to pieces if these are the kind of people that can prosper in today's Britain.


sean rua.


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## vwalan (Jun 21, 2012)

thought every one knew that self employed folk hardly pay tax .they just have big expenses . m,homes as publicity vehicles trips away to get new business .etc all tax deductable .only workers pay tax . its always been like it .its not new . motor bikes for express deliveries its anything goes .


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## vwalan (Jun 21, 2012)

we used to race vw ,s trial them rally them all under the advertizing label . visit factories every where . sometimes it was a waste of time we drove all the way to spain just to find out they didnt do what we thought they did .nod ,nod . it could take weeks at times . i thought taxs was something you nailed carpet down with . i cant smell either.


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## John H (Jun 21, 2012)

basildog said:


> Good point Sean but am afraid it is the brainwashed masses who buy the celebrity magazines and pay the football prices or pay for sky etc that make these people rich ?



Can't argue with the sentiment but why separate ourselves from the hoards? Hands up anyone who hasn't filled up with deisel before travelling back from France to the UK or filled the van with cigarettes and booze before boarding that same ferry. Its all tax avoidance and its all legal. I am willing to bet that there isn't one person on this forum who hasn't done it - and we would probably all do it on the Jimmy Carr scale if we had the Jimmy Carr income. The law needs changing but not because those rich people can't be trusted; its because none of us can be trusted.


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 21, 2012)

Tch!  It's a hard life ain't it.    Phew!...  I dunno


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## vwalan (Jun 21, 2012)

even trips to where ever need carefull planing . you dont want to go somewhere thats not tied into your business . .my kids thought everyone visited factories when abroad .or took trike bodies tied on the roof to portugal etc . you just cant trust the carriers can you . ha ha .


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## runnach (Jun 21, 2012)

I am amazed this thread has got so far and no one has commented on tax evasion and avoidance two totally seperate things.

I really can't be bothered to find out who jimmy Carr is ....but I bet he isn't a tax accountant.

The government make the rules if people have the nouse and dosh to avoid tax then so be it.

Mr average who pays his tax neither has the intellect or b
rass to pay less tax...fact of life

**** happens ...my heart bleeds...

Can anyone look me in the eye and honestly admit that in terms of stoppages, given a choice they wouldn't reduce it and have money back in their pocket?.

Channa


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## vwalan (Jun 21, 2012)

hi channa tax evasion is a crime . 
tax avoidance is an innocent past time . british business,s would pack up if avoidance was stopped .


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## vwalan (Jun 21, 2012)

the bigest british /american tax avoidance is amway . its not about selling crap .but making a loss then putting the loss against your pay as you earn tax . suits .cars you name it you can lose a fortune if you try hard .


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## runnach (Jun 22, 2012)

All part of my point Alan.....evasion gets you showering with strange men avoidance is a legal and entertainment value.


The way to quell it all of course is indirect taxation in vat as an example...spend on luxuries then pay....the peasants can't afford luxuries so are safe....great idea
Channa


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## John H (Jun 22, 2012)

channa said:


> I am amazed this thread has got so far and no one has commented on tax evasion and avoidance two totally seperate things.



Didn't mention it because this thread is specifically about tax avoidance and, from the replies, it seems that everybody knows the difference. Agree with the general thrust of your post, though.


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## Dezi (Jun 22, 2012)

John H said:


> Our entire legal system is based upon "get away with it if you can". The law in the UK does not lay out what we should do but lays out what we shouldn't. Thus if there are glaring loopholes in the "what we shouldn't" bit then it is up to our lords and masters to change the bloody law - don't blame the rest of us for following the law. As for human nature, then there is no disagreement - we are not a very moral or pleasant bunch on the whole - maybe it's time to admit the experiment failed



To say that the our entire legal system is based upon "get away with it if you can".
Is wrong.
English law is based on custom & practise going back before 1215 & 1066.
It is based around the concept that we have common sense. That from the age of 10 we are culpable ie know right from wrong and that we all have  a moral conscience and are expected to  follow it.   By and large this works very well.
However there is always somebody who will try to buck the norm. 
The scheme that Carr and others used was already under investigation because although the concept is legal it was being misused & abused by tax shy individuals.

Some of the other points made in this thread:-

"the law is an ass" and it's purpose is to ensure that the working class do the donkey work"
"the brainwashed masses"
"Mr average who pays his tax neither has the intellect or brass to pay less tax"

Sounds like the intro to the chorus of “SHE WAS POOR BUT SHE WAS HONEST”

Altogether perleeze

  It's the same the whole world over,
It's the poor what gets the blame,
It's the rich what gets the pleasure,
Isn't it a blooming shame?

Dezi  c:


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## John H (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> To say that the our entire legal system is based upon "get away with it if you can".
> Is wrong.
> English law is based on custom & practise going back before 1215 & 1066.
> It is based around the concept that we have common sense. That from the age of 10 we are culpable ie know right from wrong and that we all have  a moral conscience and are expected to  follow it.   By and large this works very well.
> ...



Well, there's a rose tinted view of the world if ever I saw one! 

The basis of our common law is not so much "common sense" (there is no definition of common sense that any two people can agree on !) but the principal that it is unfair to treat two similar sets of facts differently on two different occasions. Thus the body of precedent is built up - and if there is no precedent and no statute forbidding something then that something is deemed to be legal. In other words, the law tells us what the limits of our legal activity can be. If you can find a loophole then you may follow it. This may not be moral but no-one ever accused the law of being moral (except you, it seems).


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## vwalan (Jun 22, 2012)

think the word loophole is not ideal really .i dont look at things like that as loop holes they are usully just alternative ways of being legal .loopholes grey areas .all the same . we can have different ways of interpreting the rules thats not grey or illegal .thats how the system works . 
you could ask the question what colour is the sky ?. please answer in one word .


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## John H (Jun 22, 2012)

vwalan said:


> think the word loophole is not ideal really .i dont look at things like that as loop holes they are usully just alternative ways of being legal .loopholes grey areas .all the same . we can have different ways of interpreting the rules thats not grey or illegal .thats how the system works .
> you could ask the question what colour is the sky ?. please answer in one word .



Correct, Alan - sloppy language on my part.


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## vwalan (Jun 22, 2012)

not meant as a wrong one for you .i just think it gets used by many but really its meaning is incorrect. 
by using it people create an issue . not knocking you .


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## wildman (Jun 22, 2012)

I am disgusted by the remarks made by the prime minister.
Tax avoidance is legal end of story.
To try and defame the character of a person for doing something legal it abhorent.
More should have been said about the crooks claiming expences for which they were not entitled within the government.


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## Dezi (Jun 22, 2012)

John H said:


> Well, there's a rose tinted view of the world if ever I saw one!





John H said:


> The basis of our common law is not so much "common sense" (there is no definition of common sense that any two people can agree on !) but the principal that it is unfair to treat two similar sets of facts differently on two different occasions. Thus the body of precedent is built up - and if there is no precedent and no statute forbidding something then that something is deemed to be legal. In other words, the law tells us what the limits of our legal activity can be. If you can find a loophole then you may follow it. This may not be moral but no-one ever accused the law of being moral (except you, it seems).




So expecting people to know right from wrong, be responsible their actions and have some common sense is looking at the World with a rose tinted view is it?

I am not surprised by the response as your previously ending statement was.

“We are not a very moral or pleasant bunch on the whole - maybe it's time to admit the experiment failed” 

It would appear that despite your extensive travelling you have learned very little from it.

Your cynical attitude regarding mankind is not one that I would ever go along with.

Possibly its time to change your  attitude & perhaps pop along to specsaver

Dezi  c:


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## John H (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> So expecting people to know right from wrong, be responsible their actions and have some common sense is looking at the World with a rose tinted view is it?




No - but assuming the law of the land is based on that view is! Our law is quite clearly based on letting people do what they like and then banning some of it when we decide that it is not very nice to do those things after all (and our view of what is not very nice changes over time). Nothing in this is absolute - not even the view of society in relation to murder - so to say that there is a moral code underlying the law is definitely to don those specs.

Btw, what I have experienced on my "extensive" travelling is one of the reasons why I am so cynical about the future of mankind - people are the same the whole world over and they are all the same whether they are rich or poor - people are selfish. I am a socialist but I realise that socialism will never succeed unless somebody invents a pill to change human nature. Until then, every revolution and every change of government simply brings to power people who use the same system to enrich themselves instead of trying to change that system to make things fairer for everybody. And before you say it, I am just as selfish as the rest (although I hope that if anyone was unwise enough to make me president I would be not quite as selfish as the rest).


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## vwalan (Jun 22, 2012)

i think john is spot on . he see,s it as it is . the more you travel the more you can see all things arent what they seem . if anyone needs a wake up its definately not john this time . i may not always agree with him but in this case . i second his views .


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## sean rua (Jun 22, 2012)

" 
It's the same the whole world over,
It's the poor what gets the blame,
It's the rich what gets the pleasure,
Isn't it a blooming shame?"              " : Dezi.

---

Yes, it is, Dezi.
That's why I do something about it. 

I know Dave, Enda, Barak, or any of them will never help me and my kind, so we help ourselves. We fight the Law and the Law usually wins. 

The reason they win is because they are in receipt of millions of taxpayers' money, which they use to pay the police and the prison service and the military services.
These powerful organisations are ALL FUNDED  by TAXPAYERS.

Yes, I know it's convenient to forget this fact, just like it's convenient to forget that all the poor folk on the dole, on the sick, or on the pension, are also FUNDED BY THE TAXPAYERS.

Personally, I pay the Man as little as I can, but I ain't hypocritical enough to not be grateful for hospitals and schools and roads.

Some  folk always think 'tis others that cause all the problems in the world, and that they themselves are some sort of super guys or gals that never take a dump that stinks.
 As has been pointed out, the System is rotten, so 'tis true that we are probably all guilty. Dave is almost certainly as bad as this other pratt, but, hey, so long as his supporters can get those of us in the great "Unwashed" to waste our time quibbling over which one is the biggest turd,
then, I very much doubt that they give a monkey's.

Though I'm really too old and weary to be bothering my arse about it, the next time I read some gobsh ite slagging off the Travelling people or running down the ordinary folk, I may just go on that Rant and Rave section
to remind him/her about this here thread. :angel:

There's a lot of middleclass folk here who seem determined to have their cake and eat it. Well, let me just give ye a friendly bit of free advice ( no solicitor's fees or "consultant's charges): 
that cannot be done.

Good luck to all who try, anyway! 

Btw, is this Carr fella a good singer or soccer player or what?


sean rua


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## dodge2transit (Jun 22, 2012)

sean rua said:


> "
> 
> Btw, is this Carr fella a good singer or soccer player or what?
> 
> ...



no he is a realy crap comedian,


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## bopper (Jun 22, 2012)

In a world where murderers, terrorists and the like have "rights",
Someone who has won a TV on "Sale of the century" can become a "Celebrity",
Pictures sell for thousands of pounds that look like a child of 6 painted them,
Art can be a pile of old junk,
Singers that just talk and cannot sing,
Music with no melody.
Kids that can run wild and then be rewarded with holidays or cars to be played with.
Life support means having a mobile phone permanently plugged in your ear,
EVERYONE loves football,
Millions spent on crazy sports,
Millions spent on "Royals"
Non smokers are immortal,
The pope is a god who condemns birth control and abortion with excommunication but allows the use of guns and explosives.

Why should we worry about taxes, they are as inevitable as death!


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## Dezi (Jun 22, 2012)

John H said:


> No - but assuming the law of the land is based on that view is! Our law is quite clearly based on letting people do what they like and then banning some of it when we decide that it is not very nice to do those things after all (and our view of what is not very nice changes over time). Nothing in this is absolute - not even the view of society in relation to murder - so to say that there is a moral code underlying the law is definitely to don those specs.
> 
> Btw, what I have experienced on my "extensive" travelling is one of the reasons why I am so cynical about the future of mankind - people are the same the whole world over and they are all the same whether they are rich or poor - people are selfish. I am a socialist but I realise that socialism will never succeed unless somebody invents a pill to change human nature. Until then, every revolution and every change of government simply brings to power people who use the same system to enrich themselves instead of trying to change that system to make things fairer for everybody. And before you say it, I am just as selfish as the rest (although I hope that if anyone was unwise enough to make me president I would be not quite as selfish as the rest).



 I apppear to by lying at the bottom of a very deep dark hole. That seems to be a familiar concept, what does it remind me of?     Ah, I remember - life!

Compliments of Douglas Adams.

Dezi c:


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## Rubbertramp (Jun 22, 2012)

sean rua said:


> "
> 
> 
> Btw, is this Carr fella a good singer or soccer player or what?
> ...



Actually he's a very funny comedian who tells it as it is......and holds up a mirror to his audiences, in my humble opinion!

feckin good post by the way Sean Rua!


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## grumpyengraver (Jun 22, 2012)

*Tax*

Wish I had enough money to pay tax.
:cool1::lol-049:

I moan about road tax let alone any other tax.

Tony


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 22, 2012)

grumpyengraver said:


> Wish I had enough money to pay tax.
> :cool1::lol-049:
> 
> I moan about road tax let alone any other tax.
> ...


How very true Tony


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## GeoffB (Jun 22, 2012)

I think Jimmy Carr is about as funny as bowel cancer, a sloping-shouldered irritating little midget who makes me change channel the moment his rat-like face appears on my screen.  Cameron was wrong to attack him personally, though - instead, he ought to ensure the system doesn't allow such avoidance.  He'll surely live to regret his comments when we learn about the fiddles his front-bench colleagues, family and friends have been up to.  

But you can't blame Carr when you consider what this government wastes money on - £7bn on bombing Libya, £3bn on foreign aid for countries like India with space programmes and nuclear weapons, untold £bn on Afghanistan, Europe and baling out our own useless bankers - the list is endless.


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## Somelier (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh morality. HOW DARE our politicians lecture us on morality!


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## maingate (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> I apppear to by lying at the bottom of a very deep dark hole. That seems to be a familiar concept, what does it remind me of?     Ah, I remember - life!
> 
> Compliments of Douglas Adams.
> 
> Dezi c:



Oh dear. Poor wee Desmond.

Do you know what separates us from wild animals?

Answer ..... very little.

Some of us try to hang on to high standards but methinks it is a losing battle.

The me,me,me culture accelerated in the 1980's. Greed is good was the rallying cry.

Turn into a cynical old git Desmond, it takes the edge off things.


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## Northerner (Jun 22, 2012)

The Treasury figures show that the top one percent of tax payers pay 28% of the total tax revenue. If they are avoiding paying tax as is claimed by many on here, they're not doing a very good job. The lowest 50% of earners pay a tiny percentage of the tax bill, less than the annual housing benefit costs.

Yes, the super rich may employ complex schemes to pay less tax but ordinary high earners and companies simply cannot avoid paying tax. If you draw your profits as income you end up giving the state over half of what your firm has to award you. If company owners doesn't draw it as income they pay corporation tax but when they eventually take it as income, they pay income tax like everyone else.

If I have £10,000 to pay myself as a bonus, I end up with about half when all the relevant taxes and N.I. contributions have been deducted. If I then spend the remaining amount on a new car, or some other taxable item the state takes about 17% of the retail price in VAT!

With punitive rates such as this everyone has a duty to pay as little tax as possible. Give the government even more money and more and more of it will go on the work shy and the feckless and I'm sick to death of propping them up. 

It would appear that we should all be very grateful to the rich. If it wasn't for them the bulk of the tax burden would fall on ordinary people. And whilst some of the super rich may be paying ten percent of their income in tax, let's not forget that 10% of hundreds of millions means that they are still paying vast amounts.

Jimmy Carr should have told them to bugger off and left his dosh in Jersey!


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## sean rua (Jun 22, 2012)

Thank you, Rubbertramp, for your kind comments. Not that they will help us in any way. They won't, I fear.

Obviously, the Rich will always try to justify their privileges, and, of course, most of us will fall for their line.
 For those who haven't yet worked this out, here's a tip.

Never pay any heed to a rich man who's talking down to you.
 Really rich folk, like the Queen of England, won't even say a word to you. People who do try to justify themselves often aren't quite as good as they pretend and they attempt to bolster their ego with bombastic bullsh ite.
Nothing new; it happened over the millenia.

Here's a little snippet to mull over:

" the 1,000 richest persons in the UK have increased their wealth by so much in the last 3 years – £155bn – that they themselves alone could pay off the entire UK budget deficit and still leave themselves with £30bn to spare which should be enough to keep the wolf from the door. The second, even more staggering, is that whilst the rest of the country is being crippled by the biggest public expenditure and benefits squeeze for a century, these 1,000 persons, containing many of the bankers and hedge fund and private equity operators who caused the financial crash in the first place, have not been made subject to any tax payback whatever commensurate to their gains."

It might even be the truth, 


sean rua

ps

as ever, few of these mushes are Brits, yet they pretend to live here for tax reasons and bc they're wannabee limeys.
They are no more commendable than the thousands of Brits who aren't even man enough to live on this Godforaken island yet are always telling those of us that do how good they are and what pratts we are.

Don' it make your brown eyes blue?


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## Dezi (Jun 22, 2012)

maingate said:


> Oh dear. Poor wee Desmond.
> 
> Do you know what separates us from wild animals?
> 
> ...



Bonjour Matalot,

The Douglas Adams quote was aimed at John with his constant “Everybody in the World is selfish & nobody loves me “attitude.

I have absolutely no problem on the cynical old git front, But fortunately I have been blessed with a great sense of humour & a tendency to see the best in people, even northerners.

Dezi  c:


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## maingate (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Bonjour Matalot,
> 
> The Douglas Adams quote was aimed at John with his constant “Everybody in the World is selfish & nobody loves me “attitude.
> 
> ...



Well, you could have fooled me re Northerners. :nospam:


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## John H (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Bonjour Matalot,
> 
> The Douglas Adams quote was aimed at John with his constant “Everybody in the World is selfish & nobody loves me “attitude.
> 
> ...



Just to set things straight - I don't give a toss whether or not anybody loves me (apart from my family and close friends in the real world!) but you are right about the "everybody is selfish" bit. I defy anyone to come up with a more appropriate characteristic of the individual human being than "selfish". 

As for Northerners - when I found out that his view on the Jimmy Carr thing and mine were so very close, I nearly changed my mind......:lol-053: (load of nonsense about the work-shy and feckless, though - there are proportionately just as many wealthy lazy sods as poor ones).


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## scampa (Jun 22, 2012)

For anyone who's interested, Jimmy Carr is on channel 4 at 10pm tonight in his quiz show "8 out of 10 cats", where I hear that his fellow "celebrities"  try to embarrass him over his tax affairs.

And as I suspected, todays' press has been full of stories of poor Camerons' family and friends who have great experience in tax avoidance. Very embarrassing for him if you ask me!


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## jamesmarshall (Jun 22, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Hi, I have to say that I am a little saddened, but not overly surprised by the majority of comments here.
> 
> The reason that I am not really surprised is that when you have been married for many, many, many, years to a chartered accountant who spent twenty five years
> 
> ...



isn't marriage a means of tax avoidance?


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## Rubbertramp (Jun 22, 2012)

jamesmarshall said:


> isn't marriage a means of tax avoidance?



Yes James......but that's tacks avoidance.....a similar activity to treading on eggshells


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## caspar (Jun 22, 2012)

I haven't ploughed through all 8 pages, so apologies if this has already been said. Isee David Cameron has now back pedalled fast (clearly a man of conviction then) out of fear ministers may, quite rightly, come under scrutiny. 

People can make moral judgements all they like, but Jimmy Carr has done nothing wrong and should not be singled out from the thousands of others that do it. It's even been suggested it was only said as a diversionary tactic to something else going on now - possibly a somewhat unpopular bill coming up for debate on Monday or Tuesday, I forget which. 

I make no secret of the fact I am poor. I had money, lost my health, and thus my salary, got into debt and have got out of it again, but at a price. I am now so passionate about consumer things I've set up my own debt advice charity which is a huge success. I'm not allowed to work, so this is my little contribution. 

Many times, I have spent the last of my money to help someone else, so no real danger of tax avoidance for me. If I could legally pay less, I would. What I would prefer is to pay my tax, as I do, but be able to choose where it goes more. 

David Cameron's own family made their money from tax evasion - who is he to judge others?

At times, despite their supposed education, they appear to have plenty of intelligence but no common sense. Mabe they've never needed it?

I say good luck to those that can do it legally. Of course another genuine route to avoid tax is to give to charity, but they're not judged badly for doing that!


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## Dezi (Jun 23, 2012)

jamesmarshall said:


> isn't marriage a means of tax avoidance?




Not in my case. Madam always insists that I pay the full amount & right on time. 

Accountants ----- donchajustluvem. 

Dezi  c:


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

scampa said:


> For anyone who's interested, Jimmy Carr is on channel 4 at 10pm tonight in his quiz show "8 out of 10 cats", where I hear that his fellow "celebrities"  try to embarrass him over his tax affairs.
> 
> And as I suspected, todays' press has been full of stories of poor Camerons' family and friends who have great experience in tax avoidance. Very embarrassing for him if you ask me!



Very funny programme (and with probably twice as many viewers as normal!) but I was a little surprised at all the "mea culpa" stuff and his refusal to condemn Cameron. Has he been promised a knighthood to make it all go away?  Did very much like the joke that he was now officially a member of Take That!


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## GeoffB (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm not critcizing his morality, merely saying I find him an irritating little prat - like most so called 'comedians' these days - but he and "Woss" are head and (rounded, in Carr's case) shoulders above the rest.  All the good comedians are long dead; once we had wit instead of this edgy, sarcastic, insulting stuff.  Come back Kenneth Horne and company!


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 23, 2012)

GeoffB said:


> I'm not critcizing his morality, merely saying I find him an irritating little prat - like most so called 'comedians' these days - but he and "Woss" are head and (rounded, in Carr's case) shoulders above the rest.  All the good comedians are long dead; once we had wit instead of this edgy, sarcastic, insulting stuff.  Come back Kenneth Horne and company!



He ain't no Tommy Cooper, that's for sure


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## vindiboy (Jun 23, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Jimmy Carr has admitted tax avoidance, all legal apparently, good for him, if a legal loophole is there why not use it, Dave [ Cameron ] says he is morally wrong to avoid tax, that sounds good coming from him, If the Dipsticks in the Tax  Offices and Government allow these loopholes  they should expect them to be used , wish I had found them earlier.:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:[/QUOTE
> 
> Well .I seem to have got a good debate going on this  one,poor old Cameron , should have kept his mouth shut, What!


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

GeoffB said:


> All the good comedians are long dead; once we had wit instead of this edgy, sarcastic, insulting stuff.  Come back Kenneth Horne and company!



We all have different tastes. I happen to think that Carr is funny and I also think there are plenty of dead comedians who were not. That's life - but I think you'll find that there was no "edgier" bunch of comedians than those on "Round the Horne" (sarcastic and insulting too at times - and very funny).


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## GeoffB (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> I think you'll find that there was no "edgier" bunch of comedians than those on "Round the Horne" (sarcastic and insulting too at times - and very funny).



OOOh, get _*her*!_ No need to get your riah in a twist, duckie!


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Jimmy Carr has admitted tax avoidance, all legal apparently, good for him, if a legal loophole is there why not use it, Dave [ Cameron ] says he is morally wrong to avoid tax, that sounds good coming from him, If the Dipsticks in the Tax  Offices and Government allow these loopholes  they should expect them to be used , wish I had found them earlier.:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:



I agree with you, it's legal and no doubt there are 100's if not 1000's of others getting away with it. If our taxes stayed in the UK it wouldn't be such a touchy subject for me, however, we send billions of our hard earned money abroad, any avoidance to feed the rest of the world before sorting out our own problems is fine by me.
Of course, I know I will be slaughtered by some of you on this site for my comments, all I will say is, you keep paying your tax and watch it leave these shores, if that's what makes you happy, I will avoid at all costs, now...off to google K2 tax avoidence..


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> I agree with you, it's legal and no doubt there are 100's if not 1000's of others getting away with it. If our taxes stayed in the UK it wouldn't be such a touchy subject for me, however, we send billions of our hard earned money abroad, any avoidance to feed the rest of the world before sorting out our own problems is fine by me.
> Of course, I know I will be slaughtered by some of you on this site for my comments, all I will say is, you keep paying your tax and watch it leave these shores, if that's what makes you happy, I will avoid at all costs, now...off to google K2 tax avoidence..



We could embark on a lengthy debate about rich countries sharing some of their wealth with poor countries but if anyone thinks that any government - especially the current one - is sending aid abroad for altruistic reasons then they really don't know how the system works. There is a reason why Cameron has ring-fenced the aid budget and it is not because he approves of government charity. All aid packages these days are tied to economic or political deals. It might be that we agree to give £x million to build a dam/factory/whatever on condition that the money is used to employ British materials in the construction and that when production starts there is a binding x year trade deal (at advantageous rates to us). Or it might be that we are buying influence in a strategic part of the world that protects, say, oil routes. I know that much of the aid ends up in the hands of corrupt officials but that is often the way we get economic advantage in these countries. I am not saying that it is moral - or even very pleasant - but that is the way the world seems to operate. Nothing to do with charity.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> We could embark on a lengthy debate about rich countries sharing some of their wealth with poor countries but if anyone thinks that any government - especially the current one - is sending aid abroad for altruistic reasons then they really don't know how the system works. There is a reason why Cameron has ring-fenced the aid budget and it is not because he approves of government charity. All aid packages these days are tied to economic or political deals. It might be that we agree to give £x million to build a dam/factory/whatever on condition that the money is used to employ British materials in the construction and that when production starts there is a binding x year trade deal (at advantageous rates to us). Or it might be that we are buying influence in a strategic part of the world that protects, say, oil routes. I know that much of the aid ends up in the hands of corrupt officials but that is often the way we get economic advantage in these countries. I am not saying that it is moral - or even very pleasant - but that is the way the world seems to operate. Nothing to do with charity.



Who said the UK was a rich country?
When We give to Africa, for example...it is a case of poor people giving to a rich country, not a rich country giving to poor people.


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## David & Ann (Jun 23, 2012)

There is not a single Country on this planet that is poor. All Countries are extremely rich, it is only that most of the peoples of these countries are poor.


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Who said the UK was a rich country?
> When We give to Africa, for example...it is a case of poor people giving to a rich country, not a rich country giving to poor people.



I think you missed the point of my post


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

David & Ann said:


> There is not a single Country on this planet that is poor. All Countries are extremely rich, it is only that most of the peoples of these countries are poor.



True, David - and since this country has always depended on trade, we need to establish good economic relations with as many of those countries as possible. Hence the reason why all governments have invested in promoting that trade (they call it aid to make themselves feel good but it is really "greasing the palm" of potential trade partners).


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

David & Ann said:


> There is not a single Country on this planet that is poor. All Countries are extremely rich, it is only that most of the peoples of these countries are poor.



....which is the point I made:cheers:


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## vwalan (Jun 23, 2012)

you could also say that africa isnt a country .its a continent . some of the countries in it are richer than others but dont exactly help there fellow continental friends /or enemies .


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> True, David - and since this country has always depended on trade, we need to establish good economic relations with as many of those countries as possible. Hence the reason why all governments have invested in promoting that trade (they call it aid to make themselves feel good but it is really "greasing the palm" of potential trade partners).



I agree with SOME of what you say JOHN, we DEPENDED on TRADE, now we DEPEND on cheap imports! We have nothing to trade anymore. It appears we simply grease the palms of the leaders of other countries who have the possibility of oil for example. (or go to war with them with uncle sam!!)


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> I think you missed the point of my post



sorry, I think I may have


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

vwalan said:


> you could also say that africa isnt a country .its a continent . some of the countries in it are richer than others but dont exactly help there fellow continental friends /or enemies .



Correct me if I am wrong, but, is the continent of Africa rich in minerals such as Gold...Diamonds and other equally valuable items? So why do we send the place millions of our hard earned??


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

We have slightly gone off Jimmy Carr and his tax avoidance haven't we?fftopic:


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## vwalan (Jun 23, 2012)

but some arent . some just dont have very much at all not even very much drinking water . the people should be moved to other countries that have water . but not to worry . who cares . its only tax . like i said earlier only poor people pay tax . rich people run high expenses . thats how you find out how others live . go on expenses . why spend your own money .


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> We have nothing to trade anymore.



Because our mining and manufacturing base has been practically obliterated it is easy to come to this conclusion - but it is mistaken. We now trade mainly in what are amusingly called "invisibles" - which includes everything from financial services to tourism. We depend even more on trade now than we did in the past because you can't eat money or drive money or wear money. Thus it is even more important to foster trade with what are euphemistically referred to as the developing nations. It is very easy to fall into the trap of assuming we are giving money away but it should more properly be regarded in the same category as advertising and promotion. Not even this government would willingly "give" money away to the gold or diamond producing countries you mention. I don't know what you do for a living but if you are involved in making or selling anything, you know you could not survive without sales staff and promotional material. I think that the "aid" budget should be under the direction of the Department responsible for trade - then it might become clearer.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> Because our mining and manufacturing base has been practically obliterated it is easy to come to this conclusion - but it is mistaken. We now trade mainly in what are amusingly called "invisibles" - which includes everything from financial services to tourism. We depend even more on trade now than we did in the past because you can't eat money or drive money or wear money. Thus it is even more important to foster trade with what are euphemistically referred to as the developing nations. It is very easy to fall into the trap of assuming we are giving money away but it should more properly be regarded in the same category as advertising and promotion. Not even this government would willingly "give" money away to the gold or diamond producing countries you mention. I don't know what you do for a living but if you are involved in making or selling anything, you know you could not survive without sales staff and promotional material. I think that the "aid" budget should be under the direction of the Department responsible for trade - then it might become clearer.



...like I already said....we are a million miles away from Jimmy Carrs tax avoidance here, but as you ask, I import products from Spain, Italy and Turkey. You are correct in assuming I need sales staff and promotional material, but in these troubled times none of these things are of any real help. The previous government put the brakes on my business!!
The miners ended their own careers by holding the country to ransom, so don't even get me started on that lot!
Does the name Robert Mugabe mean anything to you? I find it strange that we hunt down and kill Saddam but yet we leave this evil dictator to run free...
anyway...back to Jimmy Carr..


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> ...like I already said....we are a million miles away from Jimmy Carrs tax avoidance here, but as you ask, I import products from Spain, Italy and Turkey. You are correct in assuming I need sales staff and promotional material, but in these troubled times none of these things are of any real help. The previous government put the brakes on my business!!
> The miners ended their own careers by holding the country to ransom, so don't even get me started on that lot!
> Does the name Robert Mugabe mean anything to you? I find it strange that we hunt down and kill Saddam but yet we leave this evil dictator to run free...
> anyway...back to Jimmy Carr..



Conversations wander - that is the joy of them but I don't think anything is to be gained by me rising to the bait of that remark about miners! :scared::lol-053: 

I'm not sure either what Mugabe has got to do with it - yes he is a crazy meglomaniac but I have been to Zimbabwe and in general the people there are among the most hard-working and delightful people I have ever met anywhere. If we stopped trading with Zimbabwe, who do you think would suffer most - Mugabe or his downtrodden people?


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> Conversations wander - that is the joy of them but I don't think anything is to be gained by me rising to the bait of that remark about miners! :scared::lol-053:
> 
> I'm not sure either what Mugabe has got to do with it - yes he is a crazy meglomaniac but I have been to Zimbabwe and in general the people there are among the most hard-working and delightful people I have ever met anywhere. If we stopped trading with Zimbabwe, who do you think would suffer most - Mugabe or his downtrodden people?



I find myself nodding at your remark about Zimbabwe.
I also find myself wondering what you mean about not rising to the bait about miners? Do you not remember the power cuts in the 70's? 
Then, I seem to remember...."Give us more money" they cried...
Maggie stood strong...who's crying now??
I call it greed....which brings me neatly back to....Jimmy Carrs tax arrangements....


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Maggie stood strong...who's crying now??
> I call it greed....which brings me neatly back to....Jimmy Carrs tax arrangements....



I think it is evident we come from different sides of the political divide but I will say this - Thatcher didn't invent greed but she certainly made it acceptable. Which is, in my opinion, where the rot set in. Over to you.............................:lol-061:


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> I think it is evident we come from different sides of the political divide but I will say this - Thatcher didn't invent greed but she certainly made it acceptable. Which is, in my opinion, where the rot set in. Over to you.............................:lol-061:



Clearly you are on the left side of common sense:lol-053:
You will no doubt be soooo grateful to the senseless lot who messed up the country over the last 10 years or so? (Go on Jimmy Carr, keep doing what you are doing...sod the lot of em!)
Clearly you have never run your own business...no I thought not, you would have a much more educated view on the economy if you had.
Even Milliband has apologised on his views on immigration, lets face it JOHN H, your lot really buggered up this country didn't they!
What did the loony left ever do right for us?:lol-049:

Enough said on this matter....I have made my point....Jimmy Carr has not done anything illegal, even you JOHN H would try and pay as little tax as possible if you earned it the hard way like some of us!!
Not a teacher by any chance are you? Just an (educated guess) but you sound like you could be!:lol-061:

Has anyone ELSE got any views on Jimmy Carr 'cos I am really bored with my accidental & unintentional disagreement about world politics with my new friend JOHN H. No offence JOHN H, but this thread is all about Jimmy Carr and as you will notice, I have tried to get back 'on topic' as I have seen all this sort of thing end in tears before.
I don't mind, so long as Phil doesn't, opening a thread called LEFT 'v' RIGHT and all the things in-between, Miners 'v' Maggie for example, should be interesting, what do you think? I don't claim to know an awful lot about politics, only what works for me and my world but I am willing to listen to your views as long as it doesn't end in someone wanting to rip someones head off!!


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## maingate (Jun 23, 2012)

Well I have been a Miner AND run my own business. As stated earlier I also paid no tax for a long time.

I will never get into a debate with someone who appears to use the Daily Mail as the fount of all his knowledge.

Sorry Alf.


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## coolasluck (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> I think it is evident we come from different sides of the political divide but I will say this - Thatcher didn't invent greed but she certainly made it acceptable. Which is, in my opinion, where the rot set in. Over to you.............................:lol-061:





True,she stopped giving m.ps nice hefty wage increases and instead hid the hike in income in a guise called bonuses,unfortunatly this idea kind of caught on didnt it.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

maingate said:


> Well I have been a Miner AND run my own business. As stated earlier I also paid no tax for a long time.
> 
> I will never get into a debate with someone who appears to use the Daily Mail as the fount of all his knowledge.
> 
> Sorry Alf.



HA-Ha-Ha.... The Daily Mail....PLEASE maingate, give me some credit, where oh where did you assume that nonsense?? I don't have time to read newspapers, they all full of lies, I believe all of what I see and nothing of what I hear.
 I note you run your own business, still do I assume? 
A friend of JOHN H i also assume? Just an educated guess from the miner 'link' (another leftie I think?) They are all coming out of the woodwork now with my 'dig' (see what I did there?) at the miner thing


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

coolasluck said:


> True,she stopped giving m.ps nice hefty wage increases and instead hid the hike in income in a guise called bonuses,unfortunatly this idea kind of caught on didnt it.



Totally agree Coolasluck....
We are both thinking "BANKS" aren't we?
Thanks Labour....Thanks VERY much!


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## vwalan (Jun 23, 2012)

coming from a long line of miners .and i mean deep mining . i am the first generation not to go and work the mines . my father had a crushed leg , my granfathers died of silicousis etc . i have seen the open cast mines in east germany and poland . seen a line of 13 drag cranes working a open surface mine right on ther border beyween the two countries .it did go through my mind why did my family go so far down and across . risking life and limb . this open mining is fairly cheap and not alot of risk to life. i know the quality isnt the same . 
yes they started as tin miners and went north to help in the first deep mines near durham . they didnt know better then .but having seen the mines in europe i can see that uk coalmines had to close .costs etc really didnt make them worth having . we already had a declining industrial problem so who was going to buy the coal. plus the green side was begining to want clean air etc . it was destined to fail . unfortunately doesnt matter who we blame it was going to end . 
i,m glad my father took me away from the coal mining area .as a child in the sixties . at least it gave me a life not based on coal. 
i find it all very interesting and here in cornwall we have the countries first deep mines and the mining of deep coal could not of happened if it wasnt for the cornish tin miners . first the tin disapeared then the coal. but it as left lots of history here. lets be honest deep mining is really not nice for the workers anyway.


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## vwalan (Jun 23, 2012)

but never mind alf will hook them in or have i spelt his name wrong .nice one alf .hee hee .


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Clearly you are on the left side of common sense:lol-053:
> You will no doubt be soooo grateful to the senseless lot who messed up the country over the last 10 years or so? (Go on Jimmy Carr, keep doing what you are doing...sod the lot of em!)
> Clearly you have never run your own business...no I thought not, you would have a much more educated view on the economy if you had.
> Even Milliband has apologised on his views on immigration, lets face it JOHN H, your lot really buggered up this country didn't they!
> ...



Well, shake a Tory and they really get mad, don't they? It never ceases to amaze me that people like you, Alf, rely on knee-jerk reactions rather than facts. If you had bothered to find out about me before trying to insult me you will have discovered that I am no apologist for Blair and his ilk; that I have consistently defended Jimmy Carr and anyone else who operates within the law; and that I have also said that anybody (including me) would have acted similarly if they had his money to play with. One thing you did get right (presumably by looking up my profile) is that I was a teacher and I would be fascinated to hear you justify the statement that you have earned your money the hard way and I have not.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 23, 2012)

John H said:


> Well, shake a Tory and they really get mad, don't they? It never ceases to amaze me that people like you, Alf, rely on knee-jerk reactions rather than facts. If you had bothered to find out about me before trying to insult me you will have discovered that I am no apologist for Blair and his ilk; that I have consistently defended Jimmy Carr and anyone else who operates within the law; and that I have also said that anybody (including me) would have acted similarly if they had his money to play with. One thing you did get right (presumably by looking up my profile) is that I was a teacher and I would be fascinated to hear you justify the statement that you have earned your money the hard way and I have not.



Ah Haa, so you are/were a teacher, thought so! And no, I didn't look at your profile, I am not THAT bored yet.
MAD? Not yet....I am a long way off mad, just enjoying the banter, do you take offence at that JH?
Trying to insult you, I haven't even started going down that route yet and ...really don't want to, like I have said before it (you) ends in tears!!
And lastly...Teachers earn money the HARD way??:lol-061::lol-049::raofl:
Are we talking about the same teachers who, like the miners, want to strike because, they think that they aren't paid enough? Another lot who think they can hold the country to ransom.
I would have them all put on litter picking duties on the motorways and give their jobs to someone who WANTS to work! Remember JOHN H it is the Private sector (ME) who pay the public sector (you) and you still want more!
Back on topic.....GREED!


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## John H (Jun 23, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Ah Haa, so you are/were a teacher, thought so! And no, I didn't look at your profile, I am not THAT bored yet.
> MAD? Not yet....I am a long way off mad, just enjoying the banter, do you take offence at that JH?
> Trying to insult you, I haven't even started going down that route yet and ...really don't want to, like I have said before it (you) ends in tears!!
> And lastly...Teachers earn money the HARD way??:lol-061::lol-049::raofl:
> ...



Well, if you're not mad you're certainly giving a very good impression! 

I see we're back to the stale old chestnut about private being wonderful and public being lazy, nasty and evil. Ho hum........I (or the people who buy your products) pay your wages. I pay the wages of the people who make the van I drive, the food I eat and the clothes I wear. I also pay the wages of the police, the nurses, the sewage workers, the teachers and the army. I'd like to see how long you and people who think like you could survive without the services provided by the people you seem to despise. The reality (something you seem far removed from) is that we all depend on both the private and public sectors and that there are both lazy and hard-working people in all jobs. Let us have a debate by all means but let us also keep it sensible.

As a matter of interest, you're not from the north are you? And do you favour large pies by any chance? Just wondered.........


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## caspar (Jun 23, 2012)

I tend to avoid modern political debates now as I don't think there's actually that big a difference between left and right anymore, just slightly either side of centre. That was not always the case and made / makes for interesting debates. 

My dad was the first in our family to escape the pits - his dad disowned him as he felt it brought shame on the family. It was made even worse when, afetr National Service, he went to Oxford University.

I remember hearing Arthur Scargill speak in Barnsley one Saturday morning during the miners' strike. I did not necessarily agree with all he did, but what a fantastic, passionate speaker. Words said with real feeling and understanding. 

You don't get that now. People who feel really passionately about anything vaguely political seem to be stamped on now, and politics, local and national seems corrupt and incestuous. 

Alf, I used to share your political persuasion. I've run my own business and I've also been a Headteacher. I can tell you teaching was harder and more stressful. Sadly I can no longer do either. 

If you really want to know the truth of politics, go back and watch 'Yes Minister'. It is surprising how many politicians of all persuasions have said how near to the truth that really is. Perhaps the fact it was an excellent comedy speaks volumes about governments?


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Well, if you're not mad you're certainly giving a very good impression!
> 
> I see we're back to the stale old chestnut about private being wonderful and public being lazy, nasty and evil. Ho hum........I (or the people who buy your products) pay your wages. I pay the wages of the people who make the van I drive, the food I eat and the clothes I wear. I also pay the wages of the police, the nurses, the sewage workers, the teachers and the army. I'd like to see how long you and people who think like you could survive without the services provided by the people you seem to despise. The reality (something you seem far removed from) is that we all depend on both the private and public sectors and that there are both lazy and hard-working people in all jobs. Let us have a debate by all means but let us also keep it sensible.



Superb JOHN H
YOU pay all these wages don't YOU!
I see you don't have a reasonable argument for Public 'v' Private. All I see at the moment is Teachers and now Doctors that want more more more, can't they see the world is in a mess? GREED, that is what all this boils down to...can't you understand this JH? Don't you see this too?
Now, JOHN H, tell me, where in ANY of my previous messages did I mention "despising" anyone? However, I do despise greedy people who want to go on strike because their pensions aren't worth as much as they once were....wake up...the whole world is in a mess, brought on by greed, maybe we all have to work until we are 70...so what? We can't go on like this can we, someone has to come up with an alternative, I wonder what YOURS would be JH?
Yes, you are correct, we ALL depend on the public and private sectors, I never said anything to oppose that did I?
I am in total agreement, there are bad apples in ALL sectors. I have employed some, I managed to get shut of them too, and the common denominator?? GREED!

I am being sensible, take a look at your previous rants, you seem to make it up as you go along...I don't mind a debate, but try a little harder would you? Or don't bother!

Anyone got anything else to say about Jimmy Carr?


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## rach82 (Jun 24, 2012)

I like Jimmy Carr - I think he is funny. (but I would feel like this even if it was someone I didnt like!)

I dont think he should of been forced into making an apology as what he was doing was legal - don't most people want to pay less for something rather than pay more???

It is the system that is wrong, if someone told you that you could pay less for something would you say no????

...he shouldnt of been singled out, there are many others doing the same thing.

..... not just for tax, with everything in life.


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## vwalan (Jun 24, 2012)

it is open for everyone to do it .everyone on paye .could start their own business and have high expenses be vat registered etc . but you do have to get the paperwork right. its up to the individuals .do they want to pay less .if so do it . you off set the loss on your business against your tax you pay as a paye . its really easy if you want to do it .


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## reg (Jun 24, 2012)

Surely greed makes the world go round, why else would anyone work, if it wasn't for the want of "things" 99% of the economy would disappear.
Food and shelter are all we need, anything else is selfish greed.

Carry on the good work,this has been fun to read.:wacko:


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## scampa (Jun 24, 2012)

rach82 said:


> I like Jimmy Carr - I think he is funny. (but I would feel like this even if it was someone I didnt like!)
> 
> I dont think he should of been forced into making an apology as what he was doing was legal - don't most people want to pay less for something rather than pay more???
> 
> ...



I agree with you Rach. I'd like to see a few of the other famous tax avoiders put on TV for a few minutes each to see if they all seemed so "guilty" or apologetic as Jimmy Carr.

And "Alf", reading your full username quickly, would I be correct in thinking that you came here just to try and wind a few members up? I almost took some of your views and comments seriously, so well done!  For a while I also suspected that you were related to (or was an alias of) another one of our long-time members who has been a little quiet recently.  His name escapes me, but he is also a small businessman from northern parts!


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## fofeg101 (Jun 24, 2012)

Tax avoiders like Jimmy Carr don't bother me, it's up to the government to close down those tax loopholes, the tax dodgers who annoy me are the ones like the shifty little creep who called to quote me for a new garage roof and said it would be cheaper if I paid cash and no receipt. Before you can get the big tax avoiders those small time crooks have to be dealt with.


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## Dezi (Jun 24, 2012)

Pon my soul, this thread seems to have livened up last night while I was sleeping off the affects of an excellent dinner & the last litre from my 5 litre container of Super U Merlot.

Private v public sector workers. I have worked in both & I agree with Keith Waterhouse when he said "nobody in the Country works harder than the self employed"

but you do get to keep a greater bulk of your earnings.( Which is where we started) 

Public sector usually has a greater responsibility with regards to human life, saving, looking after, educating etc.

That being the case I do not see how one can make a reasonable comparison between the two.

Dezi  c:


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

scampa said:


> I agree with you Rach. I'd like to see a few of the other famous tax avoiders put on TV for a few minutes each to see if they all seemed so "guilty" or apologetic as Jimmy Carr.
> 
> And "Alf", reading your full username quickly, would I be correct in thinking that you came here just to try and wind a few members up? I almost took some of your views and comments seriously, so well done!  For a while I also suspected that you were related to (or was an alias of) another one of our long-time members who has been a little quiet recently.  His name escapes me, but he is also a small businessman from northern parts!



I'm sure you can't be referring to me as there is no way that I can be described as a 'long-time member'. But, just in case you are, I've been quiet because I've been in Slovenia and Croatia for just over five weeks. My first post for some time on Friday evening was from Calais as I used up the last few megabytes of my European data allowance. I have looked at the forum occasionally and the administrator can very easily check that my log-in IP was in one of those countries. He can also check Alf whatsit's IP address as well and confirm that I am not him. I'm very forgiving and willing to accept an apology from those jumping to the wrong conclusions. Perhaps they simply can't imagine that more than one person disagrees with their view of things from the left?


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

vwalan said:


> it is open for everyone to do it .everyone on paye .could start their own business and have high expenses be vat registered etc . but you do have to get the paperwork right. its up to the individuals .do they want to pay less .if so do it . you off set the loss on your business against your tax you pay as a paye . its really easy if you want to do it .



What planet did you run a business on? First of all business expenses have to be reasonable. No decent accountant will let you put through anything that isn't necessary for the running of your business and, even if you find one who will, the first tax inspection that you get will end up with you repaying the lot plus a hefty fine.

As for the second part, if you have a limited company, which is the only way that you'd still be on PAYE (as an employee of the company) there is no way that you can offset the company's losses against your personal income tax.

But as you say, starting your own business is easy. All you have to do is take out a second mortgage on your house, invest the money in setting up a company, run it as well as you can against all the established competition and pray that, at the end of the year, the bottom line is black. If it's not there's no real problem, you just sell your house to pay off the bank (who'll have a charge on it) and rent somewhere or go motorhoming full time. Couldn't be simpler really, beats me why everyone doesn't do it!


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Pon my soul, this thread seems to have livened up last night while I was sleeping off the affects of an excellent dinner & the last litre from my 5 litre container of Super U Merlot.
> 
> Private v public sector workers. I have worked in both & I agree with Keith Waterhouse when he said "nobody in the Country works harder than the self employed"
> 
> ...



I like to call them..."Non-Constructive Operatives" :lol-053:


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

scampa said:


> I agree with you Rach. I'd like to see a few of the other famous tax avoiders put on TV for a few minutes each to see if they all seemed so "guilty" or apologetic as Jimmy Carr.
> 
> And "Alf", reading your full username quickly, would I be correct in thinking that you came here just to try and wind a few members up? I almost took some of your views and comments seriously, so well done!  For a while I also suspected that you were related to (or was an alias of) another one of our long-time members who has been a little quiet recently.  His name escapes me, but he is also a small businessman from northern parts!



Hello Scampa

Regarding my name... You are sharp.
My intentions were never to wind anyone up, as you put it. You will note my opinions, followed by other (mainly JH) opinions. Does he wind you up?
I am glad  you took my views seriously, Thank you, there were meant to be.
It would seem the mystery NORTHERNER has spoken...were you thinking of him?
Keep reading, don't let my feelings wind YOU up, I appear to be doing enough winding up of JH!! (Unintentionally, may I add!) JH has his views, some I have to agree with, but sadly, as a teacher, he has never lived in the real world.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

fofeg101 said:


> Tax avoiders like Jimmy Carr don't bother me, it's up to the government to close down those tax loopholes, the tax dodgers who annoy me are the ones like the shifty little creep who called to quote me for a new garage roof and said it would be cheaper if I paid cash and no receipt. Before you can get the big tax avoiders those small time crooks have to be dealt with.



Hi FOFEG
I think there is good greed (Jimmy Carr) and bad greed...your garage roof man.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

FANTASTIC...at last... a realist's view.
You should be running the country, I would vote for you. In fact, can I be part of your "Common Sense Party?"


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Superb JOHN H
> YOU pay all these wages don't YOU!
> I see you don't have a reasonable argument for Public 'v' Private. All I see at the moment is Teachers and now Doctors that want more more more, can't they see the world is in a mess? GREED, that is what all this boils down to...can't you understand this JH? Don't you see this too?
> Now, JOHN H, tell me, where in ANY of my previous messages did I mention "despising" anyone? However, I do despise greedy people who want to go on strike because their pensions aren't worth as much as they once were....wake up...the whole world is in a mess, brought on by greed, maybe we all have to work until we are 70...so what? We can't go on like this can we, someone has to come up with an alternative, I wonder what YOURS would be JH?
> ...



You really do have difficulty in following an argument, don't you - even your own! :lol-061:

I made the point about us all paying each others wages in response to your rant about you paying for the public sector. 

I also despise greed - wherever it appears - but why do you single out public sector workers? What about your own greed - unless you are the one person in the world who doesn't have it. Humans are a selfish group and that will never change without a miracle pill - but we can learn to recognise it - and to not keep blaming others (whether they be miners, teachers, foreigners, gypsies or whatever) for our own failings.

Finally.......it is you, isn't it, Rob? Still enjoying the pies? :lol-049::wave::lol-049:


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## scampa (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Hello Scampa
> 
> Regarding my name... You are sharp.
> My intentions were never to wind anyone up, as you put it. You will note my opinions, followed by other (mainly JH) opinions. Does he wind you up?
> ...



Sorry to have to correct you Alf, but nothing on this thread has wound me up. I find some of it interesting and entertaining, but a lot of the "same old same old" political point scoring a little tedious and insulting to others! If you notice, I said "I *almost* took some of your views and comments seriously", meaning that for a moment I thought you actually believed them yourself!  The amount of "spin" that you've applied to my comments reminds me of why I don't take any political speakers seriously!

(And in case you were wondering, I am neither a "Lefty" a "Righty" nor an "Inbetweeny", but more of a "Think for myselfy"!)


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## coolasluck (Jun 24, 2012)

An interesting thread.Maybe its hitting the 40 barrrier that made me see things and life in a differing light.Part of my reasoning for packing in work ,selling up and hitting the road to go fulltime in a motorhome is not only that of a lifestyle change but also being sick and tired of the way that my hard earned cash has been wastefully squandered,the way consumerism and capitalism has made us all into a grab grab society.
It truly sickens me to see the way humans can behave,particularly when these people will never go hungry and always have a roof over their heads,but still they need more whilst millions have none of the above.Somethings have never changed goverments are akin to the kings of yesteryear in medieval brittain,money would be spent on fighting and wars,whilst we are then charged with yet more unfair taxes to fund the goverments or kings coffers.very little changes and has changed.   
Human nature is all about greed,the more money one earns it seems the greedier we become,and with more and more money the easier it is to employ accountants and money people with whom can tie up all your money in a myriad of ways,hiding and becoming more and more genius with your money.I would agree that the system is what needs to change,greedy people will always be that,maybe they are just like the rest of us who disagree with how the money and taxes are wastefully spent,the simple fact of the matter is the system will not be changed because the people in control of this country are benefiting from the system being the way that it is.
The richer will always get richer and the gap between richer and poorer will continue to expand.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

coolasluck said:


> An interesting thread.Maybe its hitting the 40 barrrier that made me see things and life in a differing light.Part of my reasoning for packing in work ,selling up and hitting the road to go fulltime in a motorhome is not only that of a lifestyle change but also being sick and tired of the way that my hard earned cash has been wastefully squandered,the way consumerism and capitalism has made us all into a grab grab society.
> It truly sickens me to see the way humans can behave,particularly when these people will never go hungry and always have a roof over their heads,but still they need more whilst millions have none of the above.Somethings have never changed goverments are akin to the kings of yesteryear in medieval brittain,money would be spent on fighting and wars,whilst we are then charged with yet more unfair taxes to fund the goverments or kings coffers.very little changes and has changed.
> Human nature is all about greed,the more money one earns it seems the greedier we become,and with more and more money the easier it is to employ accountants and money people with whom can tie up all your money in a myriad of ways,hiding and becoming more and more genius with your money.I would agree that the system is what needs to change,greedy people will always be that,maybe they are just like the rest of us who disagree with how the money and taxes are wastefully spent,the simple fact of the matter is the system will not be changed because the people in control of this country are benefiting from the system being the way that it is.
> The richer will always get richer and the gap between richer and poorer will continue to expand.



I pressed the "like" button and then realised how inappropriate that word is! I certainly AGREE with the sentiment, however.


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## vwalan (Jun 24, 2012)

in reply you can call people greedy .but it could be that alot of people are too stupid to see that they can use the system just as much as well. 
there isnt one system for the rich and one for the poor .we all use the same system . you can get books that explain it all. even the inland revenue man can explain lots of ways to avoid paying too much tax . try visiting one it can be very beneficial. 
humans are their own worst enemy .nobody makes you buy ,borrow etc .its up to the individual how or why he does what he does . you cant blame anyone else .but bitterness does seem to creep out from the ones that dont get it right or wont be told . start your own business use the system to its full potential .nobody is stopping you. only yourself.


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## coolasluck (Jun 24, 2012)

But to make the most of the system means you have to go self employed,you know me alan my old freind,bitter i may be for now,but when i do hit the road i can leave it all behind me and freeload on your driveway too eating your pies and drinking the cartons of wine as we go,now thats the kind of system i like:cool1:


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## vwalan (Jun 24, 2012)

as the system is now anyone even if you are on paye can also have a self employed status as well.
lots do .even a car booter could register it as another form of employment .claim for vehicles clothes etc . all legal.


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## maingate (Jun 24, 2012)

Pardon me as I did not bother reading every word of your diatribe (as I know what it will be).

You describe me as a leftie :rolleyes2:. Yes I admit that I am slightly left of Attila the Hun. Like Alf the Great (or should that be grate?) I have no time for the lazy, feckless and criminal. That does not mean that I would put everyone in the workhouse, jail or detention camps. The difference is that people should have the opportunity to better themselves and a good push in that direction is to make them less dependant on benefits.

You keep bragging about travelling the world. If you are trying to impress me, you are failing badly. I once reckoned up that I had been in 55 countries and then I did a few more. You have a long way to go to catch up. 


What really annoys me about people with your attitude is this. I have an IQ that puts me in the top 2% of the population. It is no big deal to me but my Father was the same, a highly intelligent man who had no choice but to work for 48 years down a Coal Mine because of people like you who want to keep people in poverty, without any hope.
I am alright Jack is your real attitude. You have a shallow, nasty attitude to your fellow man and it shows on this forum.

Now go away.


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## sean rua (Jun 24, 2012)

Just a few points:

"Greed" means wanting more than you need. It isn't good for the individual or the community, in the long run.

The two BASIC DRIVES
of ALL LIFE
are
SEX
and
HUNGER.

OK, ain't too difficult - even for those, who, like, me despised the teacher (on the few occasions I met up with him) - is it?

Right, man is a social animal. We benefit from living in communities.
To live in a community means that folk within follow certain guidelines and rules.

All this is fine up to a TRIBAL  level.
 When there is further expansion and overflow, or, interaction with different tribes, things start to go wrong, and all may not be rosy in the garden.

The basic THREE ESSENTIALS of human life are generally said to be FOOD, CLOTHING, and SHELTER.

Now, most of my life - till an accident at work in a tunnel ( I was a miner) I worked at what I like to call a
PRODUCER. I was self-employed, so got f a..

Basically, even today, humans depend on what is produced from the Earth and the Sea. There ain't no where else yet, but perhaps some of the clever fkrs on here can conjure up something tasty out of fresh air.
The industries involved are
FARMING ( including forestry and fishing)
MINING and QUARRYING  and Mineral Extraction by any means ( oilwells etc)
CIVIL ENGINEERING and CONSTRUCTION,  includes WATER industry.

These are the fundamentals. Sounds a bit simplistic, but, in today's world, a lot of folk ain't got a clue. That's why they start braying like donkeys and soccer hooligans, instead of copping on to the reality of life.

Now, at tribal level, there are mostly PRODUCERS, and a minority of NON-PRODUCERS.
 At this level, the non-producers can be offer good value by providing important services that help and please the tribe. Hence, throughout history, musicians , poets and storytellers have been respected  and, in some cases, excused the chore of producing. ( Jimmy Carn't, perhaps?)

Right, that's enough for now. Too much learning can be non-productive and self-defeating because of over-kill.

I explained in an earlier post that most tax goes to pay for WAR and PENSIONS.
When folk find, as they will in the next few years, that their pensions - state and private - ain't much to live on,
they should remember Thatcher/Reagan, Blair/Brown/Bush, Biffo/Enda, and Dave, Barack, and Jimmy. 
They'll all be fine, but will you? 


sean rua.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

sean rua said:


> Now, at tribal level, there are mostly PRODUCERS, and a minority of NON-PRODUCERS.
> 
> sean rua.



Just to bring your summary up to date, in modern society this ratio is reversed and there are fewer producers than non-producers, which brings us to the ultimate dilemma:

We now live longer thanks to the efforts of those non-producers (be they sewage workers or doctors) but we all become non-producers (pensioners) as a result. It doesn't take Einstein to know that the money won't stretch and eventually the s**t will hit the fan. Human greed and selfishness means that nobody wants to give up the pensions they were promised (if the non-doctors on here were doctors, they would be on strike with the rest of them, even though we all know the situation is unsustainable - greed is not confined to either the rich or the poor). Perhaps the solution is to ban the public sector, all die younger and save the state lots of money? On the other hand.............

Btw, sorry you had a bad experience with your teachers but we are not all like that - honest :wave:


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## fofeg101 (Jun 24, 2012)

My memory is vague now but I seem to remember that at sometime since WW2 the French had problems with collecting tax on earnings, very few people were declaring their earnings for income tax purposes so they decided if they couldn't get the tax revenue when money was earned they would collect it when it was spent which resulted in a high purchase tax, or VAT, rate whichever they had then. I can only assume it was easier to collect tax that way because it still relied on people declaring income.....are there any Francophile's out there who know the detail?


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

fofeg101 said:


> My memory is vague now but I seem to remember that at sometime since WW2 the French had problems with collecting tax on earnings, very few people were declaring their earnings for income tax purposes so they decided if they couldn't get the tax revenue when money was earned they would collect it when it was spent which resulted in a high purchase tax, or VAT, rate whichever they had then. I can only assume it was easier to collect tax that way because it still relied on people declaring income.....are there any Francophile's out there who know the detail?



Don't know anything about the history of the French tax system but the latest figures I can find from googling it are from 2011 and are as follows:

Income Tax is progressive up to a maximum of 40%
VAT is charged at a maximum of 19.6%

So, not so very different - income tax maybe slightly lower and VAT slightly higher.


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## coolasluck (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Just to bring your summary up to date, in modern society this ratio is reversed and there are fewer producers than non-producers, which brings us to the ultimate dilemma:
> 
> We now live longer thanks to the efforts of those non-producers (be they sewage workers or doctors) but we all become non-producers (pensioners) as a result. It doesn't take Einstein to know that the money won't stretch and eventually the s**t will hit the fan. Human greed and selfishness means that nobody wants to give up the pensions they were promised (if the non-doctors on here were doctors, they would be on strike with the rest of them, even though we all know the situation is unsustainable - greed is not confined to either the rich or the poor). Perhaps the solution is to ban the public sector, all die younger and save the state lots of money? On the other hand.............
> 
> Btw, sorry you had a bad experience with your teachers but we are not all like that - honest :wave:






The best option for me and simplest is to control the population,we breed like rats,even in the third world the downtroden african female is breeding without a care for the child who will be bought into this world kicking and screaming and without hardly anything to eat and drink.We are all living longer and in so doing wrecking our world in unsustainability.It scares me to think that one day the world is going to have to take stock of our mortality,particularly as our science combats natures own brand of population control,but will we ever be able to control ourselves?


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## vwalan (Jun 24, 2012)

thought for today ...


when the last human being ,breathes its last breathe. the world may be a better place.


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## phoenix1234 (Jun 24, 2012)

*The sinner here is Cameron*

Carr is a hypocrite, but Cameron seeks to make tax a moral issue. That is a very slippery slope and shows what a vote chasing buffoon the man is - see article HERE at:

TomWinnifrith.com


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## RoaminRog (Jun 24, 2012)

*Immoral Tax?*

I wouldn't normally involve myself in a discussion about somebody elses tax affairs, but if David Cameron is prepared to open the bag marked 'morality' on television, perhaps he would like to publicly explain why all Governments in living memory feel they have the moral right to be downright GREEDY when it comes to Fuel Duty. Perhaps they would care to show us their moral side now that it has been shown that fuel prices are rising at a greater rate in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.


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## Dezi (Jun 24, 2012)

This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.

I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.

Like many others who use this forum we also do our bit to put something back into the local society via charity work, I am retired so why wouldn’t I. I also believe that this attitude is far more typical of the average person in the street than the one that John & a few others try to put about.  

Greed, selfishness, certainly plenty of that about, and it has definitely increased since the 80s “with its more is good manta & there is no such thing as society” statement by the prime minister of the day,
but please do not judge the whole of mankind by the I am all right jack money grabbing  minority.    

Dezi   c:


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Dezi said:


> This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
> I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.
> 
> I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.
> ...



Greed and selfishness aren't limited to the obvious, Dezi. Who among us would not put our family first in any situation? Who would not steal if their children were starving? Who has not bought goods on the continent because there is less tax on them? Who would not fight to keep what they have got (whether it is doctors and their pensions or a starving man and a biscuit)? Who would open up our borders to all the world's poor? You could say that selfishness is part of the survival instinct and is therefore a good thing. What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation. The point I have been trying to make - maybe clumsily - is that I am fed up with people blaming somebody else.


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

phoenix1234 said:


> Carr is a hypocrite, but Cameron seeks to make tax a moral issue. That is a very slippery slope and shows what a vote chasing buffoon the man is - see article HERE at:
> 
> TomWinnifrith.com



Oh, so some blogger whom we've never heard of says so, so it must be true? And a 'vote catching buffoon'? I'd love to see you engage in debate with Cameron, him with his First from Oxford and you with your..............?

I didn't see the statement that he made as I was travelling that day but am I wrong in understanding that Cameron did not actually make a statement as such, but answered a question from a member of the news media, during a press conference that was on a totally different matter? Can you imagine the result if he had refused to answer the question? You'd all be whinging now about him evading the question or actually supporting tax avoiders. Give the man a break, he was thinking on his feet and answered the question. He may be prime minister but he's entitled to voice his opinion.


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

runnach said:


> If i had the oppertunity to start all over again (career) I would have to take a long hard look at being a politician, they can take the moral high ground when it suits them, good salary, excellent pension scheme.
> 
> Ok, most will be in the higher tax bracket, but, they can claim a fair bit back in expences!!!
> 
> I cant



Then why don't you? You'll need a good degree, be able to persuade a constituency that you're the right man, work your bollocks off trying to get elected and then lose the job after four years if you're unlucky. You may even have to take a massive drop in salary. And I promise you, with your home where ever it is and having to live and work in London for half the year, if you didn't have expenses, most of your salary would all be spent on travelling, dining and accommodation. But what the hell, never let any facts get in the way of good anti-politician rant.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I didn't see the statement that he made as I was travelling that day but am I wrong in understanding that Cameron did not actually make a statement as such, but answered a question from a member of the news media, during a press conference that was on a totally different matter? Can you imagine the result if he had refused to answer the question? You'd all be whinging now about him evading the question or actually supporting tax avoiders. Give the man a break, he was thinking on his feet and answered the question. He may be prime minister but he's entitled to voice his opinion.



An intelligent response in the circumstances you describe would have been to say that he didn't comment on individual cases - especially without knowing all the facts. I would prefer to have a Prime Minister with judgement than a knee-jerker but those days seem to be long-gone. Oh - and by the way, a first from Oxford doesn't make you a good debater.

Just read your second post - where on earth do you get the idea that you have to have a "good degree" to be an MP? Give me a man with conviction any day - unfortunately there aren't many left apart from dear old Dennis Skinner.


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

Dezi said:


> This level of debate on this topic is rapidly going downhill, but before I withdraw & go elsewhere I cannot let the slur that all mankind is greedy & selfish go unchallenged.
> I ain't & I know a lot of others who ain't.
> 
> I have absolutely no interest in amassing more money, or position or goods than I currently have & that has been the way of it for the past 20 years.
> ...



Some people have either very short memories are are just ignorant of the philanthropy of very many successful people who give away large percentages of the fortunes that they've been lucky enough to amass. Some are not well known and do it in private, others we all should know about. Warren Buffet $30 billion, Bill Gates $29 billion, George Soros $6 billion and in the past, Henry Ford, John Paul Getty. The list is very long. We are not all selfish and many of us end up moderately well off almost by accident. We follow a career path and it happens to work out. I give to certain charities every year to the tune of about £2000, gift aided so the charities involved also get the standard rate tax and I spent seven years on the board of a charity giving up one day a month and occasionally two.

You are right, we are not all greedy and selfish. Yes, we look after ourselves and our families, that's hard-wired into our genes, but many people are also generous and will go to great lengths to help others and not just by giving money. Just look at all the charities, of which many members are volunteers who are trying to give back to society some of the blessings that they have all received by growing up in a rich and peaceful western democracy.

I have to say that the meanest people I have ever come across are on motorhomes forums! I had never ever imagined that there can be people who will pee into bottles and defecate into free plastic bags in order to save a fraction of a penny. It's really been an eye-opener coming on here! 

List of philanthropists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Northerner, you are clearly a saint and ought to be ruling the world.

By the way, people who criticise others for a supposed lack of knowledge and then refer them to Wikipedia have probably not though it through carefully enough


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## Dezi (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Greed and selfishness aren't limited to the obvious, Dezi. Who among us would not put our family first in any situation? Who would not steal if their children were starving? Who has not bought goods on the continent because there is less tax on them?





John H said:


> Who would not fight to keep what they have got (whether it is doctors and their pensions or a starving man and a biscuit)? Who would open up our borders to all the world's poor? You could say that selfishness is part of the survival instinct and is therefore a good thing. What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation. The point I have been trying to make - maybe clumsily - is that I am fed up with people blaming somebody else.



I would not put my family first in ANY situation,only some situations. Saving a childs life is not greedy or selfish. Buying food on the Continent ! I simply do not understand what point you are making .

If we could not buy goods / food abroad how could anybody travel ?

As for the statement  "What annoys me about some of the postings on this thread is the holier than thou attitude in which people are willing to blame others for characteristics that they would display themselves in a similar situation".

then its total cobblers. Not all people display the same characteristics in a dire situation as Aung San Suu Kyi has demonstrated  over many years.

Dezi   c:


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> An intelligent response in the circumstances you describe would have been to say that he didn't comment on individual cases - especially without knowing all the facts. I would prefer to have a Prime Minister with judgement than a knee-jerker but those days seem to be long-gone. Oh - and by the way, a first from Oxford doesn't make you a good debater.
> 
> Just read your second post - where on earth do you get the idea that you have to have a "good degree" to be an MP? Give me a man with conviction any day - unfortunately there aren't many left apart from dear old Dennis Skinner.



:lol-053ennis Skinner:lol-053:
Another Arthur Scargill.
Enough said!


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## coolasluck (Jun 24, 2012)

RoaminRog said:


> I wouldn't normally involve myself in a discussion about somebody elses tax affairs, but if David Cameron is prepared to open the bag marked 'morality' on television, perhaps he would like to publicly explain why all Governments in living memory feel they have the moral right to be downright GREEDY when it comes to Fuel Duty. Perhaps they would care to show us their moral side now that it has been shown that fuel prices are rising at a greater rate in the UK than anywhere else in Europe.






God dont you know anything,they are doing it in the name of green issues and the environment,nothing pisses me off more than that stealth tax.Its the worst of the lot.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

maingate said:


> Pardon me as I did not bother reading every word of your diatribe (as I know what it will be).
> 
> You describe me as a leftie :rolleyes2:. Yes I admit that I am slightly left of Attila the Hun. Like Alf the Great (or should that be grate?) I have no time for the lazy, feckless and criminal. That does not mean that I would put everyone in the workhouse, jail or detention camps. The difference is that people should have the opportunity to better themselves and a good push in that direction is to make them less dependant on benefits.
> 
> ...


Typical of you.
You accuse the man of a bitter and abusive speech and then admit to not reading it all. How daft can one person be?
You then claim to be in the top 2% of the population according to IQ!!I don't think so!
Why not read the full piece BEFORE knocking the man.
Very stupid, I would call you.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Dezi said:


> 1. I would not put my family first in ANY situation,only some situations. Saving a childs life is not greedy or selfish.
> 
> 2. Buying food on the Continent ! I simply do not understand what point you are making .If we could not buy goods / food abroad how could anybody travel ?
> 
> ...




1. Depends on your definition - in my book, selfish = putting yourself and your loved ones above others.

2. Should have said - buying stuff on the continent to bring back because the tax is less - ie saving money and denying the Exchequer. We all do it with wine; Carr did it on a larger scale, but it is only a difference of scale.

3. Don't follow this - how does the Aung San Suu Kyi bit relate to what I said about blaming others for your own faults?


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> :lol-053ennis Skinner:lol-053:
> Another Arthur Scargill.
> Enough said!



Thank you for that wise and intelligent response. My wife worked in partnership with a man who was about as right-wing as they come and, as  solicitor, he had to appear in front of magistrates and tribunal chairmen of all shades of opinion. He always said that appearing in front of Dennis was a pleasure because he was a gentleman, always weighed up the argument on the facts not on prejudices and took his job very seriously. You don't get higher praise than that - but of course, he's a socialist, so that makes him a person to be dismissed by the Alfs of this world.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> 1. Depends on your definition - in my book, selfish = putting yourself and your loved ones above others.
> 
> 2. Should have said - buying stuff on the continent to bring back because the tax is less - ie saving money and denying the Exchequer. We all do it with wine; Carr did it on a larger scale, but it is only a difference of scale.
> 
> 3. Don't follow this - how does the Aung San Suu Kyi bit relate to what I said about blaming others for your own faults?



Have I got this right JOHN H?
Putting your own flesh and blood above others is selfish?? Is this what you are really saying?? I would ALWAYS put my own above others. I also believe, so would every normal person who is reading this article right now. Who wouldn't?


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Thank you for that wise and intelligent response. My wife worked in partnership with a man who was about as right-wing as they come and, as  solicitor, he had to appear in front of magistrates and tribunal chairmen of all shades of opinion. He always said that appearing in front of Dennis was a pleasure because he was a gentleman, always weighed up the argument on the facts not on prejudices and took his job very seriously. You don't get higher praise than that - but of course, he's a socialist, so that makes him a person to be dismissed by the Alfs of this world.



...and Alf is a capitalist!! And proud to be one too!

Remind me John H...was it the dumb Lefties that gave all our Gold away? That was a good move wasn't it?
Do your self a favour and keep quiet, you are looking like you should be in the class, not at the front of it!:lol-053:


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Thank you for that wise and intelligent response. My wife worked in partnership with a man who was about as right-wing as they come and, as  solicitor, he had to appear in front of magistrates and tribunal chairmen of all shades of opinion. He always said that appearing in front of Dennis was a pleasure because he was a gentleman, always weighed up the argument on the facts not on prejudices and took his job very seriously. You don't get higher praise than that - but of course, he's a socialist, so that makes him a person to be dismissed by the Alfs of this world.



...and by the way JOHN H, Dennis Skinner IS another Arthur Scargill isn't he, so, thanks for acknowledging my wisdom and intelligence.


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## Dezi (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> 1. Depends on your definition - in my book, selfish = putting yourself and your loved ones above others.
> 
> 2. Should have said - buying stuff on the continent to bring back because the tax is less - ie saving money and denying the Exchequer. We all do it with wine; Carr did it on a larger scale, but it is only a difference of scale.
> 
> 3. Don't follow this - how does the Aung San Suu Kyi bit relate to what I said about blaming others for your own faults?



As usual John you have slightly changed tack halfway through. You  did not mention blaming others for your own faults, you specifically stated we would all act the same in similar situations.

My reply mentioning Aung San Suu Ky  made perfect sense. 

However long experience also reminds me that you will continue to prevaricate ad nauseum, so I  will leave you to it.

Dezi  c:


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Dezi said:


> As usual John you have slightly changed tack halfway through. You  did not mention blaming others for your own faults, you specifically stated we would all act the same in similar situations.
> 
> My reply mentioning Aung San Suu Ky  made perfect sense.
> 
> ...



No change of tack - check what you quoted from me again. Your comment about Suu Ky immediately followed you quoting me about being fed up with people blaming others for their own mistakes.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Have I got this right JOHN H?
> Putting your own flesh and blood above others is selfish?? Is this what you are really saying?? I would ALWAYS put my own above others. I also believe, so would every normal person who is reading this article right now. Who wouldn't?



Yes it is. What you seem unable to grasp is that the selfish instinct is not always a negative one. Indeed, if you actually read what people posted instead of exploding, Pavlovian style, when you see certain key words then you would be aware that I said that we (that includes me) would all do the same. 

Btw, the comment about wisdom was sarcasm (look it up in the dictionary).


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Yes it is. What you seem unable to grasp is that the selfish instinct is not always a negative one. Indeed, if you actually read what people posted instead of exploding, Pavlovian style, when you see certain key words then you would be aware that I said that we (that includes me) would all do the same.
> 
> Btw, the comment about wisdom was sarcasm (look it up in the dictionary).



you strange person.
How can selfishness not always be negative??? EXPLAIN!
Exploding? Who? ME? When?
I am sat here all calm, wetting my self laughing AT you, along with many others.
I am not sure how you choose to use the word Pavlovian? As in Ian Pavlov and his treatment of laboratory animals? Or, automatic reaction? You are a very clever man if you can tell my reactions over the internet, are we connected cam 2 cam? I hope not, my wife will kill me if she finds out I have been watching www.sillyoldselfishmen.co.uk :lol-053:


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## maingate (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Typical of you.
> You accuse the man of a bitter and abusive speech and then admit to not reading it all. How daft can one person be?
> You then claim to be in the top 2% of the population according to IQ!!I don't think so!
> Why not read the full piece BEFORE knocking the man.
> Very stupid, I would call you.



Because I know more or less what he will say from past exchanges. You seem to be a clone of his also.

I will now stop feeding your ego and join dezi somewhere calm and peaceful for a cool libation.

ps, it will not be in the Conservative Club.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

John H said:


> Yes it is. What you seem unable to grasp is that the selfish instinct is not always a negative one. Indeed, if you actually read what people posted instead of exploding, Pavlovian style, when you see certain key words then you would be aware that I said that we (that includes me) would all do the same.
> 
> Btw, the comment about wisdom was sarcasm (look it up in the dictionary).



Just a thought JOHN H, I am going to build a website just for you
www.deluded-motorhomers.com you and you leftie followers can ramble on all night to each other about Dennis Skinner and Arthur Scargill and the good old days of coal mining. You could all bleet on about how miserable your public sector pensions are, you could always strike again, just like your hero miners from the past!:lol-053:
You could even chat about how the labour government messed up the UK and got us into the mess we now find ourselves in.
That would save the non-selfish motorhomers to get on with some decent conversation without your constant interruptions about what YOU think. Thank God you don't run the country, sadly similar minded people did for the last 13 years, look what happened to the UK under that lot!

Still sat here enjoying myself, wondering just how high your blood pressure must be by now, BUT don't go to your Doctor, he will also be striking due to his poor pension too....just wondering JOHN H, does that make the Doctors selfish?


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 24, 2012)

maingate said:


> Because I know more or less what he will say from past exchanges. You seem to be a clone of his also.
> 
> I will now stop feeding your ego and join dezi somewhere calm and peaceful for a cool libation.
> 
> ps, it will not be in the Conservative Club.



WOOP WOOP
One down...are you REALLY sure that you are going?
Promise?
Swear?
Cross your heart and hope to die?

GREAT!!

Just the other leftie loonie to go

You know what they say...."When the going gets tough....":lol-053:


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## maingate (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> WOOP WOOP
> One down...are you REALLY sure that you are going?
> Promise?
> Swear?
> ...



I was given some good advice a while back

"Never argue with a fool because he will drag you down to his level, where he has more experience than you".

BTW, you have never posted anything regarding motorhomes or wildcamping. You really need to now because you look like 'the nutter on the bus'. Go on, pull back some credibility. :wave:


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## sean rua (Jun 24, 2012)

Hmmm,
 I get the feeling that all this cheap wine and cheap fuel from France or wherever isn't doing some of the characters on here much good in the mental health department.

Sure, I realise that a few just love the wind-up and we do get the usual quota of keyboard warriors, but, actually, this thread has quite an important topic, especially for those who would appear to be in the majority here - the wealthy, middle-aged, English middle-class.

For those of you who have prospered under the "System" ( and don't forget that most of the so-called "prosperity" was, indeed, under the reign of Thatcher and Blair ( not Gordon or Dave), the glaringly obvious point is that

IF you accept that TAX is a necessary evil, because it's needed to fund things that are deemed essential to modern society,
then, surely, you can see that spreading the load and sharing the load IS the least damaging to the individual
and
the fairest way to go.

Now, as it happens, I don't accept myself that there is this need for a powerful costly State with its protective legal and military back-up, but, for the majority of you who probably do,
I'm sure you can see that
letting some clowns dodge their moral payments is NOT helpful, and throws a bigger burden on the poor bstds who have to cough up.

That's point one.

Point two concerns education, "wisdom", and being "clever".
 Now here, I gave the wrong impression to JOHNH, for one, when I mentioned teachers.
Today, we know, more than ever, just how vitally important is EDUCATION., and, obviously, for good education we need good TEACHERS  and good Universities.

Again, these things cost money and have to be paid for by somebody. Surely, this is a "given" that is accepted by most on here?

Now, my lot didn't like teachers bc they were part of Authority; that's why i told you  that I didn't go to school as much as I should.
It's nobody's fault but my own, and I ain't crying about it.
 Naturally, I'm never going to be such a self-styled cleverclogs as the likes of some on here, who come across as right snobbish tosspots who seem to think they're successful bc they're so flipping much cleverer than ordinary mortals.

Yet, we read:

" very many successful people who give away large percentages of the fortunes that they've *been lucky* enough to amass." from Northener.

? Lucky enough? I thought these rich folk were rich bc they were so much cleverer? I didn't think "luck" would be part of their vocabulary.

Anyway, perhaps we are all talking in terms that are far too general. Generalisation always masks several important exceptions.
 On this note, it is an eye-opener for me to witness the wealthy on here getting at each others throats. Quite amusing, really, with VWalan and Runnach coming in for some quite unjustified stick, imo.

Ho, well, I can see now that I've been equally unfair in lumping all non-travellers into one huge category. There are huge differences among them.
In the final analysis, we are all human beings, or, as the jockman says: " all jack thampson's bairns".

Good luck to ye all, and don't get too worried about Dave C. He ain't going to rule for much longer. The next bggr could be far worse!

sean rua.


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## John H (Jun 24, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> you strange person.
> How can selfishness not always be negative??? EXPLAIN!
> Exploding? Who? ME? When?
> I am sat here all calm, wetting my self laughing AT you, along with many others.
> I am not sure how you choose to use the word Pavlovian? As in Ian Pavlov and his treatment of laboratory animals? Or, automatic reaction? You are a very clever man if you can tell my reactions over the internet, are we connected cam 2 cam? I hope not, my wife will kill me if she finds out I have been watching www.sillyoldselfishmen.co.uk :lol-053:



Ok, so you need to have the obvious pointed out to you. I will try not to use too many long words.

The selfish gene is the reason why we have survived and the world is not now ruled by gorillas (although some might dispute that!). Unfortunately, that same gene (positive if you think of the alternative - ie obliteration of the species) extends, in our modern society, into areas where it is no longer necessary for survival (eg trying to outdo your neighbours in the car you drive or putting all your money into offshore acounts). In other words, what was essential in primitive man is now directed partly into less savoury activities. Many of these activities are legal (which brings us back to Jimmy Carr) but of doubtful morality (and that is an individual thing); some are illegal (eg benefit fraud) as well as immoral. 

As for determining your attitude and reactions over the internet, it is not hard. You see one or two key words, launch into a diatribe and fail to read what was actually said. Consequently you have picked up the wrong end of the stick from at least three different posters on this thread. It is a common fault among those of you who have apoplexy when words such as "socialism" or "public sector" are mentioned. Once again, if you are not angry then you give a pretty good impression! ......and my blood pressure is fine, thank you for asking


----------



## Dezi (Jun 24, 2012)

maingate said:


> Because I know more or less what he will say from past exchanges. You seem to be a clone of his also.
> 
> I will now stop feeding your ego and join dezi somewhere calm and peaceful for a cool libation.
> 
> ps, it will not be in the Conservative Club.



What the hell have I done to deserve that ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dezi  :beer:


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

sean rua said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> 
> " very many successful people who give away large percentages of the fortunes that they've *been lucky* enough to amass." from Northener.
> ...



I don't know one successful person who doesn't accept that luck has played a vital part in his achievements. Luck starts with having parents who have the work ethic, who encourage you, who ensure that you work hard at school and are themselves good examples of how we should all strive to do our best, whatever part of the labour market we choose.

Just to give one example of good luck, when David Ross and Charles Dunstone started Carphone Warehouse in 1989 they had no idea of the explosive growth that would take place a few years later in the mobile phone business. At first they expected that they'd have a warehouse selling the bulky phones that had to be fitted in cars as they were far to big to be carried around. Signals went to two places in the UK and if you lived in the north you thought twice about paying a subscription for southern England, such was the cost.

Then cellular technology came along and the whole market changed and this is where being clever paid off. They were obviously very clever and astute businessmen and capitalised on the new craze and never looked back.

Conversely, another businessman could have sunk his money into a bookshop. He could also be very clever and very good at retailing books and for some time he ran a good business with happy customers and earned a decent wage. But, ten years later, along comes Amazon and another ten years later, along comes the Kindle. That's just bad luck and no matter how clever you are it's not easy to just wrap up a business. You have staff whom you want to keep employed, you may be tied into a lease so you struggle on and hope it will improve, but it doesn't, so you lose everything.

Luck is the most important thing in our lives. Being clever is just the icing on the cake and, given two people with equal luck, the clever one will usually win, whether it's succeeding in business or remaining as a PC or school teacher as opposed to becoming a chief constable or headmaster. And that is not do denigrate PCs or teachers, if they're not clever enough or talented enough to rise to the top of the tree they are just as valuable to society.


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## walkingsoul (Jun 24, 2012)

Personally I am sick and tired of the system taking taking and taking.
Why the hell should we pay anymore than 1% tax anyway.
No matter how much tax is paid there is never enough money for education and health and this and that but always enough for wars,oh how very convienient!
Yet again the system turning us all against each other when its the system thats on the take no body else.


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2012)

walkingsoul said:


> Personally I am sick and tired of the system taking taking and taking.
> Why the hell should we pay anymore than 1% tax anyway.
> No matter how much tax is paid there is never enough money for education and health and this and that but always enough for wars,oh how very convienient!
> Yet again the system turning us all against each other when its the system thats on the take no body else.



Well, we have an education system and we have a health service so quite clearly there is enough money. And I hope that there will always be enough for our armed forces otherwise we'd be conversing in German or Russian today. I object to the high level of taxes but they're a necessary evil. We have to look after the weakest in society and we have to have a welfare system, and that by the way, is where the biggest slice of the tax cake goes. What we need to do is reduce the massive welfare bill by getting people back to work and clamping down hard on the scroungers, such as the bloke in Derby with sixteen kids who's never worked and recently demanded a bigger council house.

And yes, we need to clamp down on tax evasion as well before we get the usual responses, but a system where the state takes over half of what you earn in direct and indirect taxes stifles expansion and growth and then, if you've a decent sum left when you pop off, the buggers get their claws into that as well! Disgraceful!


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## scampa (Jun 24, 2012)

Northerner said:


> such as the bloke in Derby with sixteen kids who's never worked and recently demanded a bigger council house. !



I think you have been away longer than I thought Northerner. If that is the man who I think it is, you'll find that sadly he doesn't have so many children any more, but he and his wife have at least been moved to larger premises.


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## scampa (Jun 24, 2012)

*Jimmy Carr: Tax row sees Channel 4 ratings soar*

For those of you who are still awake and can remember what this thread was about...........

BBC News - Jimmy Carr: Tax row sees Channel 4 ratings soar

To be honest, it was the first time that I'd seen his show.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Ok, so you need to have the obvious pointed out to you. I will try not to use too many long words.
> 
> The selfish gene is the reason why we have survived and the world is not now ruled by gorillas (although some might dispute that!). Unfortunately, that same gene (positive if you think of the alternative - ie obliteration of the species) extends, in our modern society, into areas where it is no longer necessary for survival (eg trying to outdo your neighbours in the car you drive or putting all your money into offshore acounts). In other words, what was essential in primitive man is now directed partly into less savoury activities. Many of these activities are legal (which brings us back to Jimmy Carr) but of doubtful morality (and that is an individual thing); some are illegal (eg benefit fraud) as well as immoral.
> 
> As for determining your attitude and reactions over the internet, it is not hard. You see one or two key words, launch into a diatribe and fail to read what was actually said. Consequently you have picked up the wrong end of the stick from at least three different posters on this thread. It is a common fault among those of you who have apoplexy when words such as "socialism" or "public sector" are mentioned. Once again, if you are not angry then you give a pretty good impression! ......and my blood pressure is fine, thank you for asking



Does anyone have any idea what this loony is bleeting on about?:lol-053:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

maingate said:


> I was given some good advice a while back
> 
> "Never argue with a fool because he will drag you down to his level, where he has more experience than you".
> 
> BTW, you have never posted anything regarding motorhomes or wildcamping. You really need to now because you look like 'the nutter on the bus'. Go on, pull back some credibility. :wave:



Oh AmI going to enjoy this bit...
I FULL-TIME in my Motorhome, I wonder if you or your followers who "liked" your post???
Maybe you could let me know...now....who's the fool again???:lol-053:


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## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Does anyone have any idea what this loony is bleeting on about?:lol-053:



It is always such a pleasure to debate with an articulate and erudite person..............................................................so I'll find someone else then, shall I? :wave:

A piece of advice - before insulting somebody, read what they say and you will avoid falling on your face quite so many times in the future. Maingate, I am sure, is perfectly capable of speaking for himself but until he does you might like to re-read his post. He criticised you for not adding to the contributions on motorhoming (eg wilding sites, technical advice etc) NOT for not being a motorhomer. There are plenty of idiots who live in motorhomes. :lol-061:


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## maingate (Jun 25, 2012)

He is a businessman but fulltimes.

He is fulltiming but has North Yorkshire in his location.

I smell something. Something with whiskers and a long tail.

This is what Care in the Community gets you. Those big houses provided more containment.


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## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> It is always such a pleasure to debate with an articulate and erudite person..............................................................so I'll find someone else then, shall I? :wave:
> 
> A piece of advice - before insulting somebody, read what they say and you will avoid falling on your face quite so many times in the future. Maingate, I am sure, is perfectly capable of speaking for himself but until he does you might like to re-read his post. He criticised you for not adding to the contributions on motorhoming (eg wilding sites, technical advice etc) NOT for not being a motorhomer. There are plenty of idiots who live in motorhomes. :lol-061:



Insult?
Where?
You are very strange...do you have anything else to do?


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## walkingsoul (Jun 25, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Well, we have an education system and we have a health service so quite clearly there is enough money. And I hope that there will always be enough for our armed forces otherwise we'd be conversing in German or Russian today. I object to the high level of taxes but they're a necessary evil. We have to look after the weakest in society and we have to have a welfare system, and that by the way, is where the biggest slice of the tax cake goes. What we need to do is reduce the massive welfare bill by getting people back to work and clamping down hard on the scroungers, such as the bloke in Derby with sixteen kids who's never worked and recently demanded a bigger council house.
> 
> And yes, we need to clamp down on tax evasion as well before we get the usual responses, but a system where the state takes over half of what you earn in direct and indirect taxes stifles expansion and growth and then, if you've a decent sum left when you pop off, the buggers get their claws into that as well! Disgraceful!



There is not enough money and just because a service exists is not evident that the infatructure is a success by any measure.
Both the health and education system as well as other important services have been cut and effected but has tax been cut?
No they want to increase tax but have failed to manage their books anyway so how are they going to manage the books with more tax money?

We were a rich country and had enough money but the system gambled with that money not jo blogs paying 1% tax or claiming the dole.

It sickens me that they have the arrogance to just think they can just tax the richer more or anyone more for that matter!
These people have worked and succeeded if they try to tax them more they will just move away.
It has become evident by the world recession that the system does not work and has failed.
Blaming someone on benefits does not make the problem their responsibility in fact its a farse even a smoke screen.
It has worked perfectly as people in this thread a blaming others and hating others even resorting to personal insults from the safety of their computer keyboards.

If we are all in this together why has the Queen not bailed out her so called Great Britain?
I wonder how much tax she pays!
How many politicians have been cut or their wages?
Economic slavery does not balance the books its all a farse.


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

maingate said:


> He is a businessman but fulltimes.
> 
> He is fulltiming but has North Yorkshire in his location.
> 
> ...



????
Would you like me to update the location each time I move?
You have gate in your name, does this make you a swinger?:lol-053:
Jonh H just has john H....probably very little imagination I think.
You two really suit each other :shag:


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Insult?
> Where?
> You are very strange...do you have anything else to do?



Ah, so all that stuff about loony lefties and "who's the fool now" (plus a lot more that I won't lower myself to repeat) were actually terms of endearment, then? ........exits to the sound of man with silly name falling face-first into the mud yet again. :lol-049:


----------



## Bigpeetee (Jun 25, 2012)

As often has happened on this and other forums, a debate is raging with the usual name calling etc, obviously copying our politicians!!

What I would like to know is; where in the world has a country or society "Got it right", so that be you Left, Right or Centre politically, you could think to yourself "They've got it right, I'd love our country to be like that!"

If of course there isn't an answer, then perhaps some of us are seeking an unobtainable Utopia?

What's the saying? There's none so blind as those who will not see.


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> As often has happened on this and other forums, a debate is raging with the usual name calling etc, obviously copying our politicians!!
> 
> What I would like to know is; where in the world has a country or society "Got it right", so that be you Left, Right or Centre politically, you could think to yourself "They've got it right, I'd love our country to be like that!"
> 
> ...



Hi

You're right - I can't think of a country that has got it right yet, but is there anything wrong with seeking an unobtainable utopia? As a socialist I have no alternative because of basic human nature.


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Ah, so all that stuff about loony lefties and "who's the fool now" (plus a lot more that I won't lower myself to repeat) were actually terms of endearment, then? ........exits to the sound of man with silly name falling face-first into the mud yet again. :lol-049:



WTF are on about?
Don't worry John, you will be in a very nice nursing home soon, it won't be long now

(Bless him)


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Here Here
I have tried many times to get back on topic, sadly the old chap does seem to like blabbering on about very little


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Each to their own


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> WTF are on about?
> Don't worry John, you will be in a very nice nursing home soon, it won't be long now
> 
> (Bless him)



Same turn of phrase, same weak insults, same knee-jerk reactions instead of actually reading what is written, same "businessman who fulltimes" - welcome back bigpieeater, I've missed you. :lol-049::wave::lol-049:


----------



## Bigpeetee (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> You're right - I can't think of a country that has got it right yet, but is there anything wrong with seeking an unobtainable utopia? As a socialist I have no alternative because of basic human nature.



But even the definition of a Socialist is so open to interpretation!!  What's yours??

I'm not religious in any way, shape or form, however the primary head of all the main religions were in many ways socialist or would that be Communalist?

It's only human greed that had warped the basic teachings of Christ, Buddha or Mohamed and others to suit their own needs.

I certainly can't fight greed, but I can live my life according to MY Philosophies, gained from travel and meeting a wide range of people from different backgrounds AND my personal inner thoughts.

However, I would never force people to be the same as me, after all, I'm unique.

But it does seen futile to try and make everyone become the same model as me, because they are also unique, but to encourage people to care about others would in my opinion be a good start.


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Same turn of phrase, same weak insults, same knee-jerk reactions instead of actually reading what is written, same "businessman who fulltimes" - welcome back bigpieeater, I've missed you. :lol-049::wave::lol-049:



What are you on about now?
What is the pie eating connection?
You simply cannot get back on topic can you?

I am sure there is some medication that will help you.


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> But even the definition of a Socialist is so open to interpretation!!  What's yours??
> 
> I'm not religious in any way, shape or form, however the primary head of all the main religions were in many ways socialist or would that be Communalist?
> 
> ...



To avoid turning this into a book (or set of books!) I suppose you could sum up my view of socialism as "from each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs". As I have said before, this will always be an aspiration rather than an achievable goal because of human nature - that selfishness and greed we have been talking about. I agree totally with your comments about religion and about how the best we can all do is live the life we would want to see others living but accept that they will have different views. Only interfere if they are causing harm to other people. Forcing people into a particular view of life never works - but that doesn't stop governments from trying!


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> What are you on about now?
> What is the pie eating connection?
> You simply cannot get back on topic can you?
> 
> I am sure there is some medication that will help you.



Don't worry - your secret is safe with me. I won't tell anybody! :lol-061::lol-061:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Don't worry - your secret is safe with me. I won't tell anybody! :lol-061::lol-061:



I think they call it dementia JOHN H:lol-049:


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> I think they call it dementia JOHN H:lol-049:



You mean you've forgotten who you are? :lol-053:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> You mean you've forgotten who you are? :lol-053:



My god you are dull


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> My god you are dull



:sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027::sleep-027:


----------



## Robmac (Jun 25, 2012)

Am I really reading what is written by adults, this is like a couple of kids trying to have the last word. Please let's get back to the original topic!


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Sorry about that Rob, but as I have said before, winding up idiots is a fault I readily own up to. We all have our weaknesses and I can't resist that one. :cheers:


----------



## Robmac (Jun 25, 2012)

And I'm as weak as any, mind you I can't stand Jimmy Carr so I hope he get's all he deserves!


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Sorry about that Rob, but as I have said before, winding up idiots is a fault I readily own up to. We all have our weaknesses and I can't resist that one. :cheers:



You simply cant stop can you. And you claim to be a teacher? 
I have met some strange people but you really are the top one.
Any chance of getting back to the topic yet, or do you want to show just how immature you are to more people?


----------



## Dezi (Jun 25, 2012)

I am thinking of taking bets on this one.

Whether John H or friend Hookham eventually have the last word in their purile exchanges.

Going on past performances I think my money will go on John H.

Any takers ?

Dezi   c:


----------



## groyne (Jun 25, 2012)

Who do you think's going to mention Hitler or the war first Dezi?


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Dezi said:


> I am thinking of taking bets on this one.
> 
> Whether John H or friend Hookham eventually have the last word in their purile exchanges.
> 
> ...



I think you're right, he seems to be a control freak, he thinks he is talking to one of his pupils:lol-053:


----------



## Northerner (Jun 25, 2012)

groyne said:


> Who do you think's going to mention Hitler or the war first Dezi?



Hitler and the war comes to mind.


----------



## coolasluck (Jun 25, 2012)

I was going to say that word but thought better of it :ninja:


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Robmac said:


> And I'm as weak as any, mind you I can't stand Jimmy Carr so I hope he get's all he deserves!



I happen to think he's very funny but even if I didn't I can't condemn anybody who acts within the law. Condemn the law if you like (and in this case I do) but don't condemn those who keep to it. After all, as I and others have said before, we'd all be tempted to do the same if we had his money. The selfish gene strikes again! 

Btw, did I hear somebody fart? Oh no, it was another pointless comment from I'll **** 'em. (I hope you don't mind but my weakness struck again!).


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> I happen to think he's very funny but even if I didn't I can't condemn anybody who acts within the law. Condemn the law if you like (and in this case I do) but don't condemn those who keep to it. After all, as I and others have said before, we'd all be tempted to do the same if we had his money. The selfish gene strikes again!
> 
> Btw, did I hear somebody fart? Oh no, it was another pointless comment from I'll **** 'em. (I hope you don't mind but my weakness struck again!).



Can't help yourself can you...weirdo


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Can't help yourself can you...weirdo



No :lol-061:

.....and I'll have two minced beef and one steak and kidney (sorry Robmac et al but I just can't resist!)

.....and, Dezi, I'll have a fiver on me - what are the odds? :lol-049:


----------



## Northerner (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Can't help yourself can you...weirdo



Well, you were warned that he'd want the last word!


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Well, you were warned that he'd want the last word!



I find him pathetic, a very sad and probably lonely individual.
You see, teachers never leave school do they, so they always have the 'playground' mentality 
I don't mind him having the last word, as long as it is not his usual drivel, he has a talent for typing lots of words but saying very little.
He is very irritating, read his posts, his views are always 'right'.
I have enjoyed winding him up, I am sure it won't be the last time either...if he can handle it without spitting his dummy out!
I just find it odd that the moderators on this site allow him to get away with his behaviour, I can only think that he has some hold over them.

Now, lets see what nonsense follows from him next...:lol-053:


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> I find him pathetic, a very sad and probably lonely individual.
> You see, teachers never leave school do they, so they always have the 'playground' mentality
> I don't mind him having the last word, as long as it is not his usual drivel, he has a talent for typing lots of words but saying very little.
> He is very irritating, read his posts, his views are always 'right'.
> ...



Yes, I admit it......I am the saddest person you could ever wish to meet. I have no friends but I do have a hold over the moderators of this site (I won't reveal what it is but don't mention sheep when you next see them). My only desire in life is to be accepted by right-wing bigots and I get very upset when they write nasty things about me...............:sleep-040:

Btw, Northerner, the last time Alf pieeater was on this forum you were bitter enemies. I'm heartened to see you have kissed and made up.  







Apologies, Phil for the sheep comment but my fingers just won't listen to me when I tell them to stop


----------



## Rubbertramp (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> I just find it odd that the moderators on this site allow him to get away with his behaviour, I can only think that he has some hold over them.



Hypocrisy of the highest order..........Well done that man!


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> Hypocrisy of the highest order..........Well done that man!



Oh my god, JOHN H's twin is on to me now.
Take a closer look and tell me just how many times I tried to get this disagreement back on track....GO ON... I am here all night.:sleep-040:


----------



## Robmac (Jun 25, 2012)

Nice to see a few smilies in the posts anyway!


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Oh my god, JOHN H's twin is on to me now.
> Take a closer look and tell me just how many times I tried to get this disagreement back on track....GO ON... I am here all night.:sleep-040:



You may be here all night but my pies still haven't arrived......:mad1::dance:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> You may be here all night but my pies still haven't arrived......:mad1::dance:



Anyone else got the slightest clue what the dizzy fella is on about?


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Anyone else got the slightest clue what the dizzy fella is on about?



He's good, isn't he? How long do you think he can keep it up? 

:dance::sleep-040::ninja::heart::sleep-027::mad2::have fun::cheers::shag::mad1::hammer::yeahthat::bow::scooter::lol-061::goodluck::welcome::boat::scared::lol-053::fun::blah::sad::lol-049::egg::rolleyes2::beer::rockroll::king::drive::cool1::banana::raofl::juggle::dnd::wacko::baby:c::idea::ditto::tongue::angel:fftopic::sucks::danger::idea-007::nospam::help: 
Thought these, might keep you cheerful, Robmac!


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> He's good, isn't he? How long do you think he can keep it up?
> 
> :dance::sleep-040::ninja::heart::sleep-027::mad2::have fun::cheers::shag::mad1::hammer::yeahthat::bow::scooter::lol-061::goodluck::welcome::boat::scared::lol-053::fun::blah::sad::lol-049::egg::rolleyes2::beer::rockroll::king::drive::cool1::banana::raofl::juggle::dnd::wacko::baby:c::idea::ditto::tongue::angel:fftopic::sucks::danger::idea-007::nospam::help:
> Thought these, might keep you cheerful, Robmac!



Whatever...


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Whatever...



Pride and a fiver is at stake here - surely you can do better than that :wave:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> Pride and a fiver is at stake here - surely you can do better than that :wave:



Just trying my best to get the page views up to 4000.
A teacher who is prepared to lose a fiver, you'll be striking next!!:raofl:


----------



## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Just trying my best to get the page views up to 4000.
> A teacher who is prepared to lose a fiver, you'll be striking next!!:raofl:



I think this conversation has lost some of its edge - I'm going to bed :wave:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

John H said:


> I think this conversation has lost some of its edge - I'm going to bed :wave:



What you really mean is, Alf isn't rising to your nonsense and you can't think of anything to say.
Your friend rubbertramp must be still counting the times I tried to get back on course with this thread, can you give him a hand please john, I don't think he can get past 3:lol-053:


----------



## Rubbertramp (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> What you really mean is, Alf isn't rising to your nonsense and you can't think of anything to say.
> Your friend rubbertramp must be still counting the times I tried to get back on course with this thread, can you give him a hand please john, I don't think he can get past 3:lol-053:



Oh yes, it's very hard.......haven't managed to get past zero yet. Still, keep trying......you did say you were going to be up all night.


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> Oh yes, it's very hard.......haven't managed to get past zero yet. Still keep trying......you did say you were going to be up all night.



Its those old eyes Rubberlover, you are in denial, like rubber john
Blatantly obvious to most of us who the trouble makers are, sat hiding behind their screens.
4 comes after 3 if this helps you rubberbrain


----------



## Funky Farmer (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm new here so probably should keep my head down but I have to say, this is all getting a bit childish and tedious.  Not to mention way off topic.


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 25, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I'm new here so probably should keep my head down but I have to say, this is all getting a bit childish and tedious.  Not to mention way off topic.



Way off topic you say?
I have tried many a time to get it back on topic, rubbergimpmask is counting the times as we speak, I am waiting for him to come back with the total.:sleep-040:


----------



## Funky Farmer (Jun 25, 2012)

Alf Hookham said:


> Way off topic you say?
> I have tried many a time to get it back on topic, rubbergimpmask is counting the times as we speak, I am waiting for him to come back with the total.:sleep-040:



I also said "Childish and tedious"


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 26, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I also said "Childish and tedious"



You have the choice not to read it, there are loads of other topics for those who wish.
I don't think it is tedious, I even think JOHN H secretly enjoys it.
With over 3000 views, someone must find it interesting??
Rubberlover must still be counting??
In my opinion, it is all light hearted banter, no racial or religious abuse, so my advice is, read something else!!:wave:


----------



## Dezi (Jun 26, 2012)

John H said:


> No :lol-061:
> 
> .....and I'll have two minced beef and one steak and kidney (sorry Robmac et al but I just can't resist!)
> 
> .....and, Dezi, I'll have a fiver on me - what are the odds? :lol-049:



At the moment about 3,000 to 1 on that I will die of boredom in the next 24 hours.

Dezi  c:


----------



## Alf Hookham (Jun 26, 2012)

Dezi said:


> At the moment about 3,000 to 1 on that I will die of boredom in the next 24 hours.
> 
> Dezi  c:



Hello Dezi
If the entertainment on this thread is "boring" you, why are you reading it?:lol-053:
As I said to the other poster above, there are plenty of other threads...I will start one if you like for those who don't like this one..
How about...."Boring Old Men with wispy grey beards" 
No, hang on, let me finish with JOHN H before he makes a nuisance of himself elsewhere!:lol-049:


----------



## Deleted member 775 (Jun 26, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I'm new here so probably should keep my head down but I have to say, this is all getting a bit childish and tedious.  Not to mention way off topic.



hi all its the old sod again creeping out of the woodwork :tongue: i had forgoton how good this site was for discusions . any way here goes, arnt we all tax dodgers ,running our old diesel motors on veg oil saves on the tax  and all us smokers getting cheapo baccy from our local baccy barons  .i am guilty and imoral too  any way exelent thread that man . and also now i am paying my way in world i can do the odd job ,and put the procedes in the back pocket .


----------



## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Welcome back Mandrake 

..........and good morning Alf/Big/Mr Hall (it's difficult to know what to call you!). I see that you've managed to upset more people and faster than in your previous incarnation (has anyone ever been banned twice from this site, I wonder?). It's a pity there isn't an Olympic category for someone with your suicidal tendancies - Britain would be sure of a gold. Perhaps we could campaign for one - javelin catching? heading the shot? synchronised drowning? Any other suggestions gratefully received............:wacko:


----------



## frogijock (Jun 26, 2012)

Cameron should have had a quick word with his mother before he opened his mouth.
She would have told him that the 300,000,00 pounds that he inherited from his late father was amassed by using similar systems.

Also the the ginger muppet (D Alexander) in the treasury department used the switching main property scam (used by MPs) to avoid paying capital gains tax when he sold his house.


----------



## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

frogijock said:


> Cameron should have had a quick word with his mother before he opened his mouth.
> She would have told him that the 300,000,00 pounds that he inherited from his late father was amassed by using similar systems.
> 
> Also the the ginger muppet (D Alexander) in the treasury department used the switching main property scam (used by MPs) to avoid paying capital gains tax when he sold his house.



David Cameron's father was a successful stockbroker who made a lot of money in offshore investment funds. He didn't take money earned in the UK and salt it away, he actually invested in various funds which made profit and in a tax-efficient way. When he died he left £2.7 million. David Cameron received a miserable £300K, just one ninth of the legacy.

Cameron Senior wasn't a politician and has nothing to apologise for. Neither has David Cameron. Perhaps when he was nine years old he should have warned daddy that one day he might be PM so he'd better stop investing outside the UK?

And why do people have to continually talk about dipsticks and ginger muppets? I have no doubt that the money obsessed members of this forum would never have used an expenses system (legally) to maximise their benefits, they're such upstanding members of society. 

Bloody hell, is that a pig flying past my window?


----------



## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

John H said:


> good morning Alf/Big/Mr Hall (it's difficult to know what to call you!). I see that you've managed to upset more people and faster than in your previous incarnation (has anyone ever been banned twice from this site, I wonder?). It's a pity there isn't an Olympic category for someone with your suicidal tendancies - Britain would be sure of a gold. Perhaps we could campaign for one - javelin catching? heading the shot? synchronised drowning? Any other suggestions gratefully received............:wacko:



Well, it seems that alfbigpieeaterhookham has been banned for a record second time, which means I have to bore you all with my usual rant that I don't approve of bannings. There are idiots in all walks of life - I would far rather they were out in the open but, clearly, Phil takes a different view. I have to admit that if anybody was going to change my mind it would be Mr Hall under whatever guise he chooses to appear but all-in-all I can't support bannings - even if they make life a lot calmer for the rest of us. 

......and I won't be claiming my winnings, Dezi - if an opponent is tripped up halfway through the race I find it a hollow victory.


----------



## Robmac (Jun 26, 2012)

I don't find this at all racist, merely a comparison. Please do not try to find prejudice where there is none! Merely humour!


----------



## Dezi (Jun 27, 2012)

John H said:


> Well, it seems that alfbigpieeaterhookham has been banned for a record second time, which means I have to bore you all with my usual rant that I don't approve of bannings. There are idiots in all walks of life - I would far rather they were out in the open but, clearly, Phil takes a different view. I have to admit that if anybody was going to change my mind it would be Mr Hall under whatever guise he chooses to appear but all-in-all I can't support bannings - even if they make life a lot calmer for the rest of us.
> 
> ......and I won't be claiming my winnings, Dezi - if an opponent is tripped up halfway through the race I find it a hollow victory.



Has he been banned ? or is that simply wishful thinking on your part.

All bets will be paid out to punters as per my normal in house rules.

A] You must provide proof of eligibility i.e. over 18.
B] You must have wife’s written approval for you to gamble.
C] You must be accompanied by both sets of grandparents who can prove you are who you say you are. 

Dezi   c:


----------



## kimbowbill (Jun 27, 2012)

mandrake said:


> hi all its the old sod again creeping out of the woodwork :tongue: i had forgoton how good this site was for discusions . any way here goes, arnt we all tax dodgers ,running our old diesel motors on veg oil saves on the tax  and all us smokers getting cheapo baccy from our local baccy barons  .i am guilty and imoral too  any way exelent thread that man . and also now i am paying my way in world i can do the odd job ,and put the procedes in the back pocket .



Where you been? not seen you around MD


----------



## John H (Jun 27, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Has he been banned ? or is that simply wishful thinking on your part.
> 
> All bets will be paid out to punters as per my normal in house rules.
> 
> ...



Hi

No, not wishful thinking - as I said, I don't approve of bannings, but when I looked at his last post, the word "member" had disappeared from his heading and then I looked up his main "home" of the website "motorhome365" where he writes under what I assume is his real name of Rob Hall and he admitted that he had been found out and banned (in between accusing me and Phil of sleeping together!!). 

Btw, can you wait a while because my grandparents are on holiday - bungee jumping over Victoria Falls :lol-053:


----------



## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

oi! less of the anti ginger stuff!you've made me cry now and it's making the ink run on my suicide note


----------



## Dezi (Jun 27, 2012)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> No, not wishful thinking - as I said, I don't approve of bannings, but when I looked at his last post, the word "member" had disappeared from his heading and then I looked up his main "home" of the website "motorhome365" where he writes under what I assume is his real name of Rob Hall and he admitted that he had been found out and banned (in between accusing me and Phil of sleeping together!!).
> 
> Btw, can you wait a while because my grandparents are on holiday - bungee jumping over Victoria Falls :lol-053:




Well I don't think you will be lonesome for to long, there is at least one other candidate that I can recognise that will probably take his place.

Dezi  c:


----------



## John H (Jun 27, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Well I don't think you will be lonesome for to long, there is at least one other candidate that I can recognise that will probably take his place.
> 
> Dezi  c:



Can't imagine who you talking about! :rolleyes2::cool1::banana:

.....and I offer my winnings to the first person to spot AlfpieeaterHall is his next disguise. :wave:


----------



## sean rua (Jun 27, 2012)

[No message]


----------



## Dezi (Jun 27, 2012)

Absolutely NO comment. 








Dezi  c:


----------



## scampa (Jun 27, 2012)

[No message]


----------



## scampa (Jun 27, 2012)

Oh well, I did try to help you with your air of superiority on here.

Keep working at those life skills though and there may still be hope!!


----------



## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

Mc donalds seem to have done reasonably well flipping burgers, arguably one of the most globally recognized brands..

Channa


----------



## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

runnach said:


> Sadly, non of this is new. I once met an American in London who had been a venture capitalist..
> 
> It turned out he had been involved with the microwave oven in its infancy.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dezi (Jun 28, 2012)

The only point I would pick up out the ones recently made is about luck having a part in success.

As somebody who has met, worked & assisted dozens of self made business people including being ones ourselves luck, good or bad always pops up at some point.

The only people I know that that did not accept possibility were ones who took over a businesses from other family members, parents.

For the rest of us it’s a question of going with your idea and ploughing money into it. Initially working very long hours & if you are fortunate eventually reaping the rewards,
but luck, good or bad always intervenes at some point, often with devastating effects.

To deny this point is to have an excessive ego, or simply not live in the real World. 

Which is pretty much the same thing.

Dezi   c:


----------



## sean rua (Jun 28, 2012)

[No message]


----------



## Northerner (Jun 28, 2012)

basildog said:


> To be honest it is really no different to the way most businessmen seem to behave it just seems that very few actually get caught !
> The things I have seen and also know that people have done to either keep their business afloat or just to make more money has really made me think whether I want to go back to running my own business ever again !
> Maybe communism is the way forward !



That is a disgraceful slur, with no basis in fact and you should be ashamed of yourself. I admit that, from your previous posts that I'm not surprised, and suspect that you often post simply to stir up trouble. Perhaps you weren't particularly successful in business and now, with the same kind of zeal with which reformed smokers denigrate those who still partake, you attack those who are in business and successful at it.

By the way, do you have this theory because it's how you behaved when in business? For myself I run an honest business as do most of my other friends who are self-employed in various ways. I'm also curious as to how you know that most businessmen are dishonest if, as you say, very few get caught. If you actually know of dishonest traders, surely you'd report them to the relevant authorities? Odd that isn't it?


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## Northerner (Jun 28, 2012)

basildog said:


> I do not think honest and businessman are words that in anyway mix and would go as far as to suggest that you would be hard pressed to find me one that has not at some time taken advantage of a situation ?
> Whether that be an exaggerated tax claim or a cheap deal that they suspect was dodgy to an outright bribe ?
> In my book honest means squeaky clean not as it suits the individual concerned ?
> Like the employee that steals a pencil or a few nails is he or she really any better than one that raids the till ?



As I said, you post simply because you enjoy stirring up trouble. Not only do you enjoy stirring but you insult many people on this forum who are businessmen. I suspect that you must have failed badly in your business, whatever it was, to make you so bitter and resentful of those who are succeeding. It's a shame and I feel very sorry for you.

Anyway, as I said, if you know about all these dishonest businessmen why aren't you reporting them to the police? Surely if you're so honest yourself you do it as a matter of principle. Don't worry, I don't expect a sensible answer!


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## Northerner (Jun 28, 2012)

basildog said:


> Where have I ever said I am honest ?
> I would love to live in your world of honest businessmen as next you will be telling me that many large corporations have never paid bribes ?



As I suspected. You're basing other people's moral standards on your own. Now that explains it. And in forty years of dealing with some very large corporations I have never offered, or been solicited for, a bribe.


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