# What happens if you get "caught"?



## Caijin (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi, sorry if this is a daft question, but after reading up I can't find the answer so I'm thinking it is probably common knowledge that has passed me by. 

What happens if you are parked up, sleeping (in an out of the way place nowhere near a no overnight stay sign or the like), and a fine officer of the law gently taps upon your door? Are you looking at a fine/ticket/something else or does he just tell you to go on your merry way?

Is it a case of how that fine officer is feeling at the time? i.e. he _can_ take it further than a friendly  "move off, you can't stay here", but normally he won't?

Because I'd like to try some wild camping but don't fancy the risk of actually getting into trouble, least not if that trouble comes with a fine!

Again, sorry if I have missed where this question has been answered, just haven't found it anywhere.

Thanks.


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## avandriver (Oct 11, 2011)

If you are in " an out of the way spot with no obvious " no camping sign " then the chances are you will be left allone " 


However if the authorities were to knock on the window they will probably just ask you too move on , after checking who you are and that all your driving documents are in order .


Steve


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## angelaa (Oct 11, 2011)

We have been wild camping most weekends now for months.  Never had a problem.  Just follow simple rules, if it says no overnight camping, find somewhere else.  We love the freedom.


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## MOS (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi 
if you are not causing a nuesence or blocking anyones access ,there isnt a sign saying dont do it , then do it chances are you wont be bothered ,and if by some strange querk you are then just do as the officer instructs you in a pleasent manner and all will be well , its not an offence to camp , so live and let live i say .
go camping enjoy and leave everything as you would like to find it 
MOS


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

Caijin said:


> Hi, sorry if this is a daft question, but after reading up I can't find the answer so I'm thinking it is probably common knowledge that has passed me by.
> 
> What happens if you are parked up, sleeping (in an out of the way place nowhere near a no overnight stay sign or the like), and a fine officer of the law gently taps upon your door? Are you looking at a fine/ticket/something else or does he just tell you to go on your merry way?
> 
> ...


 might help to say where you are.....then people can give u a place or 2 near you to get you started, like they did with me


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## Caijin (Oct 11, 2011)

Thanks very much guys, exactly what I wanted to hear


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## Rolly (Oct 11, 2011)

*Caught? Not Out!*

I've done over 1100 nights in a Romahome and been visited by the police just twice. Once in Germany and once in Holland. In both cases they were armed, so I disarmed them with a smile, some lousy German or Dutch, and they let me stay.
If you're just staying one night there really should be no problem.
Enjoy them all.
Rolly


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## MartianTom (Oct 11, 2011)

I always try to make myself as inconspicuous as possible.  I try to choose quiet side roads, near hedges or walls rather than right in someone's window.

If you're out in the sticks, though, and there are no obvious signs around - just go for it.


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 11, 2011)

In the circumstances you describe.  The Police are not interested in you being parked unless you are causing an obstruction.  It is the landowner and Local Authority Planners that are bothered as it is an offence under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 for a landowner *to allow * a caravan to park (for human habitation) on unlicenced land, except in a limited number of exemptions.  The local authority procecute that land owner.

Even if you are tucked well away there are busy bodies around that will report you to the authorities.  The authority will then send someone to see you and request you to move on, so it is not something that will happen while you are asleep.  They will not fine you for parking.  It is a civil matter and they need to go to court to get an injunction to force you move on.   This is how it takes so long to move travellers on from a place where they park.  Before moving you on, they have to check that you are not too ill to be moved on or that there are no children involved that should be in school.

If the police do knock it will be to see that you are safe and are not at, or present a, risk.


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## Firefox (Oct 11, 2011)

Police can't move you on unless you are causing an obstruction to a highway. That's not to say a local plod won't try it to gain some brownie points with a Nimby ecpec if he isn't sure of the law himself. Just give the excuse you are too tired to drive and will be on your way first thing. Once I was wild camping with a mate in the forest above Bethesda car park about 1993. We just had sleeping bags and a plastic sheet (no van). But we did have a small fire going which attracted attention. Plod came all the way up the hill through the forest with a torch about 4.30am in the morning. Anyway we had a chat about the danger of forest fires (it was Dec 30, cold, damp , with snow on the ground, so not much danger!) He decided we knew what we were doing and didn't present a threat so he said happy new year and was off, leaving us to our freezing camp.

I have been knocked up at 7.00 am by a forest ranger sleeping in a car (It was a picnic area in woods near Eastbourne about 1988 and it did say "no camping"). I just told him I'd be off in an hour or so which he seemed to accept.

Also been knocked on at 9.00pm by local council rangers, when parked on a track off the highway (not causing any obstruction). That was on the hills south of Swindon 2008. It was part of the council park I think. It didn't say no overnighting. Anyway I just told him we'd be off in the morning. I think he just wanted to check we weren't the start of a traveler camp.

If you get knocked up at night when asleep I don't think there is any compulsion to answer the door anyway. I generally wouldn't if I was asleep. What can they do? Nothing apart from leave a note under your wipers asking you to move which you are gonna do in a few hours anyway. Don't worry about it, Just leave the site clean and be off after breakfast.

I have also been visited by numerous police cars, rangers, water authority vans etc who have just driven up, and off again. They don't generally care if you are being quiet and respectful.


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## fairytooth (Oct 11, 2011)

Just try to bear in mind that we are not criminals and that we still live in a democracy.

I have heard so many people in fear of doing something perfectly ordinary, just going about their lives and trying to cause minimal disturbance to others.  Wouldn't it be nice if, for once, some of these rapists, armed robbers and burglars (few of whom seem to get their just deserts) took a similar approach.....

just a thought.

Of course you can do it.  The British law is actually based on a premise whereby if you are not expressly forbidden in law to do something, then you may do it.  Not many people seem to realise that.

GO FOR IT !!!!


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## jezport (Oct 11, 2011)

We found a letter stuck to our screen one bank holiday morning. This was put on our van by East Riding of Yorkshire council, who have nothing better to do on a bank holiday at 7.00AM.

It threatened us that under Section 77 of the criminal justice and public order act 1994, that we could be liable to a fine of up to £1000. 
Their letter was very misleading and once I researched what they claimed I found they were talking bollocks.


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## Kontiki (Oct 11, 2011)

Never been bothered by the police in all our years of wildcamping in the UK, we do always try to make sure we aren't parked up anywhere which might cause a problem with the locals. In Spain we were moved on from one place & a few days later in a different area we had a note left on our windscreen politely telling us we were not allowed to camp there & must use a campsite.


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## kimbowbill (Oct 11, 2011)

ive been asked to move on twice, both times they told me where to go, and both times they were actually better places, there are loads of places where you can stay without the threat, just enjoy the freedom

Jen


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

kimbowbill said:


> ive been asked to move on twice, both times they told me where to go, and both times they were actually better places, there are loads of places where you can stay without the threat, just enjoy the freedom
> 
> Jen


 
i would like to tell ya where to go!!! :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::wave:


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## kimbowbill (Oct 11, 2011)

cooljules said:


> i would like to tell ya where to go!!! :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::wave:


 
well thats not nice, cheeky monkey, :rolleyes2:


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

kimbowbill said:


> well thats not nice, cheeky monkey, :rolleyes2:


 
hehe.  any kids on the way from henry and mrs henry? ;-)  or what is just a quick fling at farndon?


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## kimbowbill (Oct 11, 2011)

cooljules said:


> hehe.  any kids on the way from henry and mrs henry? ;-)  or what is just a quick fling at farndon?


 
nah, twas a one night stand, Henry is getting the chop next monday so Mr squibby will be off the menu lol


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

kimbowbill said:


> nah, twas a one night stand, Henry is getting the chop next monday so Mr squibby will be off the menu lol


 lol.  maybe it shouldnt be henry thats off for the chop ;-)


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## kimbowbill (Oct 11, 2011)

cooljules said:


> lol.  maybe it shouldnt be henry thats off for the chop ;-)


 
eh? Henry is having the chop, or are you saying henry should be killed?


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

kimbowbill said:


> eh? Henry is having the chop, or are you saying henry should be killed?


 
oh no, i meant mr squibly having the chop ;-)


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## kimbowbill (Oct 11, 2011)

cooljules said:


> oh no, i meant mr squibly having the chop ;-)


 
ok, yeah good idea especially how he was winding henry up lol


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## cooljules (Oct 11, 2011)

kimbowbill said:


> ok, yeah good idea especially how he was winding henry up lol


 
all that was missing was some soppy love songs and they wouldnt have been seen for hours 


twas a good weekend...............


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## kimbowbill (Oct 12, 2011)

cooljules said:


> all that was missing was some soppy love songs and they wouldnt have been seen for hours
> 
> 
> twas a good weekend...............


 
twas so


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## mick_p (Oct 14, 2011)

avandriver said:


> If you are in " an out of the way spot with no obvious " no camping sign " then the chances are you will be left alone "
> Steve



The only problem with your reply Steve is that some areas of land may be to large to sign, take Cannock Chase here in Staffordshire, defiantly NO CAMPING but there is an area called Tackeroo Caravan Touring Site, Birches Valley,Rugeley,WS15 2UG run by the Forestry Commission.

Mick


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## jezport (Oct 15, 2011)

Heres the letter that you get if you wild camp in Bridlington, I have removed my detailsView attachment brid parking.jpg


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## al n sal (Oct 15, 2011)

is it  my computer playing up, I just get can't display contains errors, do i need to adjust something. interested in what they say


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## christine (Oct 15, 2011)

I can't get it either, same message.


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## jezport (Oct 15, 2011)

I did that, I will try again:mad2:
I have compressed the jpeg more


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## Byronic (Oct 15, 2011)

The gist of it seems to be that if you sleep overnight in your mobile home you may be considered as "residing" and that this is an offence, for which they may take legal action and you may get a £1000 fine. The killer word seems to be "residing" not camping. My jpeg image is very blurry hence not verbatim.


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## jezport (Oct 15, 2011)

Byronic said:


> The gist of it seems to be that if you sleep overnight in your mobile home you may be considered as "residing" and that this is an offence, for which they may take legal action and you may get a £1000 fine. The killer word seems to be "residing" not camping. My jpeg image is very blurry hence not verbatim.



If you research section 77 of the Criminal Justice and public order act, you will find that they cannot fine you unless you repeat offend, they cannot move you on if you claim to be ill etc, and a £1000 fine hah not a chance unless you caused a serious problem or disturbance.


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## Viktor (Oct 15, 2011)

That's interesting and looks to be directed primarily towards the travelling community with those words as residing means:

*1.* to live permanently or for a considerable time (in 
a place); have one's home (in) _he now resides in 
London_

*2.* (of things, qualities, etc.) to be inherently 
present (in); be vested (in) _political power resides in 
military strength

_it's the interpretation angle again and I would suggest you were parked, not camping, as residing would infer a considerable time
which would be more than a few hours or perhaps even more than 24 hours.. you would also have to take some sort of steps to
make the residency progressively more permanent.

I doubt they would spend the money to test it in court.

I agree with jezport because you would be committing a criminal offence of dangerous driving after the point you become too tired to
continue your journey.  How can you reasonably be expected to know exactly when you are going to become 'too' tired? If you fall asleep at the wheel
knowing you are tired, you commit a criminal offence and leave yourself open to be prosecuted if it appears you just lost control of your
vehicle, besides being downright dangerous to yourself and others.

I suspect you got the letter attached to your vehicle or through the post.  So how do they prove it was you?... and if they spoke to you, you
would have likely moved on if you felt it safe to do so.  Are they going to time you parked up? That would be difficult to do for every motorhome
parked around the highway.

Looks like the 'frightening' solicitor type letter which barks but can't really bite....up to £1000....that would only ever be for the most extreme
case.


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 16, 2011)

Viktor said:


> That's interesting and looks to be directed primarily towards the travelling community with those words as residing means:
> 
> *1.* to live permanently or for a considerable time (in
> a place); have one's home (in) _he now resides in
> ...



This is what the Act says

Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
1994 c. 33Part V Powers to remove unauthorised campers Section 77

77 Power of local authority to direct unauthorised campers to leave land..

(1)If it appears to a local authority that persons are for the time being residing in a vehicle or vehicles within that authority’s area—.
(a)on any land forming part of a highway;.
(b)on any other unoccupied land; or.
(c)on any occupied land without the consent of the occupier,.
the authority may give a direction that those persons and any others with them are to leave the land and remove the vehicle or vehicles and any other property they have with them on the land.
(2)Notice of a direction under subsection (1) must be served on the persons to whom the direction applies, but it shall be sufficient for this purpose for the direction to specify the land and (except where the direction applies to only one person) to be addressed to all occupants of the vehicles on the land, without naming them..
(3)If a person knowing that a direction under subsection (1) above has been given which applies to him—.
(a)fails, as soon as practicable, to leave the land or remove from the land any vehicle or other property which is the subject of the direction, or.
(b)having removed any such vehicle or property again enters the land with a vehicle within the period of three months beginning with the day on which the direction was given,.
he commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(4)A direction under subsection (1) operates to require persons who re-enter the land within the said period with vehicles or other property to leave and remove the vehicles or other property as it operates in relation to the persons and vehicles or other property on the land when the direction was given..
(5)In proceedings for an offence under this section it is a defence for the accused to show that his failure to leave or to remove the vehicle or other property as soon as practicable or his re-entry with a vehicle was due to illness, mechanical breakdown or other immediate emergency..

“vehicle” includes—
(a)
any vehicle, whether or not it is in a fit state for use on roads, and includes any body, with or without wheels, appearing to have formed part of such a vehicle, and any load carried by, and anything attached to, such a vehicle; and

(b)
a caravan as defined in section 29(1) of the M1 Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960;

and a person may be regarded for the purposes of this section as residing on any land notwithstanding that he has a home elsewhere.


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## jezport (Oct 16, 2011)

Viktor said:


> That's interesting and looks to be directed primarily towards the travelling community with those words as residing means:
> 
> *1.* to live permanently or for a considerable time (in
> a place); have one's home (in) _he now resides in
> ...



I wonder if they have any legal rights to get the owner of the vehicle to admit who was driving it?

BTW they attached the letter to my windscreen before I was out of bed on a bank holiday Monday. Seems a strange way to waste resources in a town which has an struggling town centre with traders going out of business.

If local people have complained I think that they need to think about how much their council tax will rise if tourists do not visit their town and keep their bushinesses trading and paying their rates. They will complain when all the small traders quit and they have to go to out of town centres to do their shopping.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

John Thompson said:


> Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
> 1994 c. 33Part V Powers to remove unauthorised campers Section 77
> 
> 77 Power of local authority to direct unauthorised campers to leave land..
> ...


I think there are two key words in this section of the Act that will keep lawyers in business for many years to come!

The first is the use of the word "may" which implies that the powers are discretionary. In other words, you could argue that no offence has been committed unless the local highways authority specifically resolves to make use of these powers.

The second is the definition of "resides". If you reside in a house then your presence in a vehicle at any time of the day is temporary. How do you define temporary? How do you define "resides" without making every driver of every vehicle guilty if they pull over and take a nap? 

This section was clearly included for use against "travellers" who might find it difficult to claim they are not "residing" if they have no other home. Personally I find that an apalling use of the law (there are already rules in place if travellers or anybody else cause damage, cause a nuisance or leave litter) but it means that it is unlikely to be invoked against a motorhome legally parked for a couple of days.

Interesting debate though!


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 16, 2011)

Another vague statement here John



> a person may be regarded for the purposes of this section as residing on any land notwithstanding that he has a home elsewhere.



I believe that the council are clutching at straws quoting this act as a way of frightening motorhome a user from parking.  They have no proof of anyone being in the vehicle, if they simply stick a note on the windscreen.  

The offence is only committed if the person takes no notice of the correctly served notice, or returns to the same place within a 3 month period.  A letter stuck under a wiper does not in my opinion meet the requirement that the notice 





> "(1) must be served on the persons to whom the direction applies"


  It must also state the name of the land not just a vehicle registration number.

If the notice (not just that letter) was posted to the OP then it may/may not be regarded as served if it was recorded delivery, but still would need to specify the location of the prohibition and date.  It would not prevent someone else parking the same motorhome at that location, as the notice has to be served to the person or persons occupying the van at that time.  It does not specify in the Act, "a vehicle owned by that person" is prohibited, just the person or persons involved in the first instance.

As has been said before, it will keep lawyers in business for many years to come! 

If you keep moving daily, the authorities have nothing to base a claim of residence on, in my opinion.


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## John H (Oct 16, 2011)

I absolutely agree, John - so the answer to the original question is, don't be overly concerned about such a note. :have fun:


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## sasquatch (Oct 16, 2011)

It happened to me many years ago in Wiltshire. Plod knocked at the side of my Vee Dub at about 10-30 to see if I was ok. His reason for doing so was that in the recent weeks rhe area had experienced an increased number of suicides. 
Now as long as you aren't burning car tyres or have lots of mad dogs and there is an absence  of signs you should be ok as long as its not 'suicide alley'.


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## Viktor (Oct 16, 2011)

I agree.  Thanks John for posting the specific section of the Act.

All those things have to occur in the steps stated BEFORE an offence can be committed under the Act.
Anything else would be a fixed penalty parking ticket under the Road Traffic Act i.e. obstruction if
unable to resolve it, and parking against prohibitions.

Now would I make a point of parking 'overnight' in areas signed no overnight parking between 12mn and 8am?
No, because the members of this site are trying to promote good behaviour and curry favourable opinion
regardless of whether an 'offence' would be pursuable or not.


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## cooljules (Oct 16, 2011)

im still confused, but then im not very good at english. find it a little confusing.


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## RAGGLETAGGLE (Oct 16, 2011)

*France of all places!*

After three years of wild camping for three months every winter the only place I have ever had any trouble was France, the most lenient european country I know where almost every village has a free car park specially for motorhomes! My little Citreon Relay was surrounded by huge French motorhomes with all their luxuries and the woman from next door woke me up in the middle on the night saying my blown air heating was too noisy and she was going to call the police if I  didn't move. Needless to say I just told her to go away!


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