# Manchester LEZ zone from May



## Fisherman (Jan 6, 2022)

Well worth watching for Manchester, and this will be a template for other cities in future.
Anyone driving a Motorhome over 3500kg should watch this video, but more than worth the watch for us all.


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

Coming to a city near you..............along with motorway tolls, car exclusions zones, higher fuel prices, higher car tax, higher insurance, higher prices generally. 

The cost of Cop26 and if you think that's bad, wait until Cop27-28-29....comes along.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

izwozral said:


> Coming to a city near you..............along with motorway tolls, car exclusions zones, higher fuel prices, higher car tax, higher insurance, higher prices generally.
> 
> The cost of Cop26 and if you think that's bad, wait until Cop27-28-29....comes along.



I spoke to Tom yesterday Ral. He reckons it won't be worth leaving the house in the van before too long!


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I spoke to Tom yesterday Ral. He reckons it won't be worth leaving the house in the van before too long!


He could well be right Rob.
Manchester had a public vote a few years ago whether there should be LEZ, it was a resounding NO, this time around there was no vote, just imposition.

Isn't it great living in the free world?


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

izwozral said:


> He could well be right Rob.
> Manchester had a public vote a few years ago whether there should be LEZ, it was a resounding NO, this time around there was no vote, just imposition.
> 
> Isn't it great living in the free world?



Yeah but they're obviously thinking about public health rather than extracting money out of your pocket Ral? Because they're obviously caring kind of people.


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## mistericeman (Jan 6, 2022)

Signs are already up in some areas in Stockport etc


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## RichardHelen262 (Jan 6, 2022)

It wouldn’t be too bad if it was just  Manchester City but it covers a large area


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

As Ral said, it's coming to a city near you - and not just the city itself.

I'm seriously thinking of selling the van. I will continue to motorcycle camp with my mates and if Julie is with me we can use B&B's as it will be the cheaper option.

I wonder how many Caravan sites are within that area who will now lose custom from Motorhomes?


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> Well worth watching for Manchester, and this will be a template for other cities in future.
> Anyone driving a Motorhome over 3500kg should watch this video, but more than worth the watch for us all.


The scheme seems fair to me. This is not so much about climate change as about Manchester people's lungs. Only old generally large, dirty diesel  vehicles are penalised. Most large motorhome owners will have a car to get into Manchester, or they can pay after 2023 for the damage they cause.


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## harrow (Jan 6, 2022)

Welcome to the LEZ club. 
In effect it restricts what vehicles I can buy regardless of mileage covered because of the charges, and the ULEZ tougher restrictions, motorcycles as well.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> The scheme seems fair to me. This is not so much about climate change as about Manchester people's lungs. Only old generally large, dirty diesel  vehicles are penalised. Most large motorhome owners will have a car to get into Manchester, or they can pay after 2023 for the damage they cause.



Sorry I disagree. It's about money.

Euro 6 vehicles will be penalised when Euro7,8,9 etc come in. I seriously don't believe that they give a toss about the health of the great unwashed.


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

If the issue was climate change euro 6 is as bad as euro 5 the difference is the particulates and nitrous oxides. I am more sympathetic for the lungs of millions than the loss of some older vehicles. I do not know the loss of life years due to lung disease in Manchester but it will be significant. The only problem is that it has taken so long to get attention. 
I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too.
  I will willingly buy an electric camper when that happens. It is an expense that many will ill afford but the writing has been on this wall for a long time.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> If the issue was climate change euro 6 is as bad as euro 5 the difference is the particulates and nitrous oxides. I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too.
> *I will willingly buy an electric camper when that happens. It is an expense that many will ill afford but the writing has been on this wall for a long time.*



That's fine for those who can afford it.

Motorhoming, like many other pastimes will become a hobby exclusively for the wealthy?


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> That's fine for those who can afford it.
> 
> Motorhoming, like many other pastimes will become a hobby exclusively for the wealthy?


I hope electric campers will be cheaper by then. 
This year you can buy an xbus camper for 30,000 new. It may not be as big as people are used to but cheaper versions will come.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> I hope electric campers will be cheaper by then.
> This year you can buy an xbus camper for 30,000 new. It may not be as big as people are used to but cheaper versions will come.



Now that I would happily pay for if the claims regarding range etc. are to be believed.

However the infrastructure is still a long way off to support EV's. The issues we face now should have been addressed decades ago. Lip service has been paid to green issues for far too long. Everybody knew this was coming, as you say 'writing on the wall' yet manufacturers have continued to churn out cars capable of 3 times the speed limits. The powers that be have allowed this to go on and now punish the public!


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## mikejay (Jan 6, 2022)

We had signs put up around the edge of Skelmersdale going into Orrell and Appley bridge just before christmas this zone is massive

Mike


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## Fisherman (Jan 6, 2022)

I reckon we will just have to try to avoid these zones were possible.
What would be helpful is if they set up large Park and Rides outside the zones.
But get used to this its coming everywhere including Europe, who are ahead of us on this one.
Also I would think very carefully before buying a van more than 3500KG.


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

Where is Insulate Britain when you want them?


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> I reckon we will just have to try to avoid these zones were possible.
> What would be helpful is if they set up large Park and Rides outside the zones.
> But get used to this its coming everywhere including Europe, who are ahead of us on this one.
> Also I would think very carefully before buying a van more than 3500KG.



I'm quite sold on the Xbus Derek mentioned earlier Bill.

I wouldn't buy the camper - it's a possible upgrade later as the modules are interchangeable. But it's a very cheap alternative to buying an electric car.


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## Fisherman (Jan 6, 2022)

Don’t let’s confuse this with global warming.
This relates to high nitrogen oxide and particulate matter which leads to early mortality for thousands living in cities every year. I am in favour of these zones, but only if other measures are taken alongside them to help mitigate the measures being taken. IE any money collected could be used towards grants to encourage people with older diesels to get rid of them, build large park and rides outside the zones, and generally don’t allow this money to used to to prop up struggling councils the way car parking charges are used.
But I have little faith that any of that will happen, and these charges will simply end up as cash cows for local councils.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> Don’t let’s confuse this with global warming.
> This relates to high nitrogen oxide and particulate matter which leads to early mortality for thousands living in cities every year. I am in favour of these zones, but only if other measures are taken alongside them to help mitigate the measures being taken. IE any money collected could be used towards grants to encourage people with older diesels to get rid of them, build large park and rides outside the zones, and generally don’t allow this money to used to to prop up struggling councils the way car parking charges are used.
> But I have little faith that any of that will happen, and these charges will simply end up as cash cows for local councils.



They won't be getting any of my cash Bill.

Quite happy to vote with my feet.


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I'm quite sold on the Xbus Derek mentioned earlier Bill.
> 
> I wouldn't buy the camper - it's a possible upgrade later as the modules are interchangeable. But it's a very cheap alternative to buying an electric car.


I did investigate this quite deeply. It is basically a choice of 2 large electric skateboards. With a cab added at the front and the choice of 9 modules mounted behind. It is easy to have a RH drive version as the controls are just electronic. The steering column can just be moved across and connected electrically.  Then batteries can be added to the 8 standard in fours adding more range. Each battery 1.25kwh weighs 9 kg so you can lift them in and out of the drawers and charge them indoors as we'll as the normal electric car charging.  The camper and other full roof modules have 600watt of solar on the roof as standard. So if you ran out of charge on a sunny wildcamp you could wait. As long as you did not cook . I know that of the 9 modules being pre sold the camper is the most popular in the uk
. I suspect that the camper module cannot be upgraded to the maximum extra battery mentioned as looking at it the camper has a rear footwell, which I think competes with one of the battery drawers.
 I don't know why I am this interested as I hope to get at least another 6 years out of my existing diesel camper.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> I did investigate this quite deeply. I know that of the 9 modules being pre sold the camper is the most popular in the uk
> . I suspect that the camper module cannot be upgraded to the maximum extra battery mentioned as looking at it the camper has a rear footwell, which I think competes with one of the battery drawers.
> I don't know why I am this interested as I hope to get at least another 6 years out of my existing diesel camper.



I see what you mean.

I would consider the Kombi pick-up version to double as an everyday vehicle and it could also carry a fair bit of glamping gear.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I see what you mean.
> 
> I would consider the Kombi pick-up version to double as an everyday vehicle and it could also carry a fair bit of glamping gear.



...I now see that the Kombi would also only cater for the smaller battery pack.


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## mistericeman (Jan 6, 2022)

The 'Sensible' thing would be to utilise the already in place phasing out of ICE vehicles allowing most if not all to become naturally obselete.... 

Prices would naturally fall as uptake volume increase... 
Alongside a linear increase in charging infrastructure and public transport improvements.... 

However 

What the hell has sensible got to do with it ehh?


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> ...I now see that the Kombi would also only cater for the smaller battery pack.


I guess that the rear drawer is the larger so I suspect 16 battery modules is the most for the kombi/camper layout. Range nominally 400 k. But you might only carry full battery set when going long range.
 It manages the long range by being very light, not too fast and because of the solar.
 It actually is registered as Eu L7e-b2 class (side by side buggy) or something like that. lighter than a car, before battery weight. It's maximum GVW IS 1600kg but that gives up to 800kg payload after 8 batteries


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## Fisherman (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> They won't be getting any of my cash Bill.
> 
> Quite happy to vote with my feet.


That’s the Scotsman side talking


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## wildebus (Jan 6, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> Don’t let’s confuse this with global warming.
> This relates to high nitrogen oxide and particulate matter which leads to early mortality for thousands living in cities every year. I am in favour of these zones, but only if other measures are taken alongside them to help mitigate the measures being taken. IE any money collected could be used towards grants to encourage people with older diesels to get rid of them, build large park and rides outside the zones, and generally don’t allow this money to used to to prop up struggling councils the way car parking charges are used.
> But I have little faith that any of that will happen, and these charges will simply end up as cash cows for local councils.


 I think one of the graphics on the Manchester Clean Air website sums up the true purpose ...   "come on in and visit Manchester... we love you   "







PS.  There could be one group of campers which will benefit from DVLAs refusal to classify the average campervan as a "Motor Caravan" ....  VW Californias for the last few years do not classify as "Motor Caravans" any longer, so will remain as M1 'Cars', and so exempt even though they are campers.  (And anyone wanting to convert a VW ... choose a Caravelle or Shuttle base and don't even think about applying to reclassify the conversion and you are golden    My last VW T5 conversion, registered in 2008 is exempt as I never reclassified  )


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

wildebus said:


> I think one of the graphics on the Manchester Clean Air website sums up the true purpose ...   "come on in and visit Manchester... we love you   "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the position I tried to be in with my DIY doblo which is still an mpv as I wanted to keep the advantages of being a large car mainly the Dfds multi trip tickets. Unfortunately I have so far only been able to insure it as a campervan in constant conversion.
I assume your conversion is still an unconverted van on the v5, but it was a converted camper. Who did you insure your conversion with?


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## wildebus (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> That is the position I tried to be in with my DIY doblo which is still an mpv as I wanted to keep the advantages of being a large car mainly the Dfds multi trip tickets. Unfortunately I have so far only been able to insure it as a campervan in constant conversion. Who did you insure your conversion with?


Because of this change of stance with DLVA around 2018, the majority of speclist insurers have now agreed to insure "failed" conversions with Campervan policies.  The last time I was discussing this subject with the insurers, (when it became evident the DVLA were going to continue being stupid), there was a bit of a requirement to  provide the DVLA Rejection letter which tended to be worded along the lines of "you have met all the requirements of a Motor Caravan but it doesn't look like one from the outside so tough titties".  You don't of course want to try that just to get a rejection as you might end up with a Van/Windows - worst of both worlds!
Long Story short ... I have used A-Plan for all my my conversions at some point, some policies as conversions-in-progress, some policies for official motor caravans, but a couple for the T5 as a converted but non-reclassified Campervan.     All the features needed, but left as a "Diesel Car" with Body Type of "MPV"







I am sure A-Plan will give you a Campervan policy


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## Derekoak (Jan 6, 2022)

So I tell A plan that my diesel car, body type mpv is now fully converted to a camper but still looks like a big tall car with tinted windows so I do not want to, and think the dvla will not provide, Motor Caravan classification. Can you offer me Camper insurance anyway?


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## wildebus (Jan 6, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> So I tell A plan that my diesel car, body type mpv is now fully converted to a camper but still looks like a big tall car with tinted windows so I do not want to, and think the dvla will not provide, Motor Caravan classification. Can you offer me Camper insurance anyway?


I would say something like " ...as you know,  DVLA is refusing to reclassify self-builds even though my conversion is complete and ticks all the boxes, so I am having to leave the V5 as it is, but am after a full Campervan policy...."
I'd have some photos ready to show it is internally a campervan and say you are a member of the C&CC or whatever (if you are) to reinforce it is - and is used as - a campervan.


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

For those on a tight budget.


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## jeffmossy (Jan 6, 2022)

Only the Brits would put up with this, if it was in France there would be major riots and burning speed cameras


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## Herman (Jan 6, 2022)

"I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too."

Be prepared to see more HGV trundling past your door Derek if you live outside the LEZ, as business leave Manchester in the droves to relocate outside the LEZ to avoid charges. I can see industrial areas like Trafford Park becoming ghost towns as business relocate. Big show arenas that hold camping and motorhome shows will hold shows in Preston or other nearby large towns. Imagine someone having an already expensive stall in the Christmas market now willing to pay upto an extra £60 a day to bring in fresh stock, they will have a stall at Clitheroe next year.


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## TissyD (Jan 6, 2022)

I may be lookimg at this wrong but if I say go to Hollingworth lake with the group for a 5 day rally does this mean I would have to pay £50 (£10 per day) or would I only pay for the day I travel if the van is parked up? If I have to pay for the whole stay then I would certainly make sure I went out and about very day thus defeating the object of charging and in what way would the money be used to reduce air pollution. It is like when you book a flight on a plane they give the option to pay extra towards cutting down emissions but the plane still flies if only one person agrees to pay>


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## mistericeman (Jan 6, 2022)

Herman said:


> "I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too."
> 
> Be prepared to see more HGV trundling past your door Derek if you live outside the LEZ, as business leave Manchester in the droves to relocate outside the LEZ to avoid charges. I can see industrial areas like Trafford Park becoming ghost towns as business relocate. Big show arenas that hold camping and motorhome shows will hold shows in Preston or other nearby large towns. Imagine someone having an already expensive stall in the Christmas market now willing to pay upto an extra £60 a day to bring in fresh stock, they will have a stall at Clitheroe next year.


Much like most of the hgv traffic does now with the Woodhead pass rather than take the more HGV appropriate M62.... 

Little of it solves problems just moves the focus


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

TissyD said:


> I may be lookimg at this wrong but if I say go to Hollingworth lake with the group for a 5 day rally does this mean I would have to pay £50 (£10 per day) or would I only pay for the day I travel if the van is parked up? If I have to pay for the whole stay then I would certainly make sure I went out and about very day thus defeating the object of charging and in what way would the money be used to reduce air pollution. It is like when you book a flight on a plane they give the option to pay extra towards cutting down emissionms but the plane still flies if only one person agrees to pay>



I don't think they can charge you whilst on private land.

You would have to pay for driving to, driving from and any days in between if you drove out onto the roads in the restricted area.


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## wildebus (Jan 6, 2022)

Herman said:


> "I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too."
> 
> Be prepared to see more HGV trundling past your door Derek if you live outside the LEZ, as business leave Manchester in the droves to relocate outside the LEZ to avoid charges. I can see industrial areas like Trafford Park becoming ghost towns as business relocate. Big show arenas that hold camping and motorhome shows will hold shows in Preston or other nearby large towns. Imagine someone having an already expensive stall in the Christmas market now willing to pay upto an extra £60 a day to bring in fresh stock, they will have a stall at Clitheroe next year.


There will also be a switch from vans to estate cars and SUV/MPVs which would be charge-exempt to order to carry goods.  makes no difference to emissions whatsoever, but less safe to carry goods in  (thinking back to when a colleague destroyed the passenger seat of his car when a heavy printer went through it in an accident.  if a van, the bulkhead would have stopped that.  Could have been drivers side and killed him).


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

I can see this being a bit like 'Smart' motorways. Implement and then realise they hadn't really thought it through.

If these vehicles are really causing this much harm surely they should ban them, or is it only ok to poison people if you pay?


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## oppy (Jan 6, 2022)

This will mean that we are unable to visit our son and granddaughter ever again, my niece over in Hebden Bridge and cousin in Heald Green either. We cannot afford to replace our 11 year old car or 25 year old 'van, ah well, seeing as we live in Glossop, it will be difficult to escape.


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

oppy said:


> This will mean that we are unable to visit our son and granddaughter ever again, my niece over in Hebden Bridge and cousin in Heald Green either. We cannot afford to replace our 11 year old car or 25 year old 'van, ah well, seeing as we live in Glossop, it will be difficult to escape.



You should've kept that bike Peter!


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## 2cv (Jan 6, 2022)

oppy said:


> This will mean that we are unable to visit our son and granddaughter ever again, my niece over in Hebden Bridge and cousin in Heald Green either. We cannot afford to replace our 11 year old car or 25 year old 'van, ah well, seeing as we live in Glossop, it will be difficult to escape.


I think that private cars are exempt.


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## oppy (Jan 6, 2022)

2cv said:


> I think that private cars are exempt.


Oh I do hope so, ta


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## TissyD (Jan 6, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I don't think they can charge you whilst on private land.
> 
> You would have to pay for driving to, driving from and any days in between if you drove out onto the roads in the restricted area.


Another argument would be why should I pay on the minor roads to the clubhouse when there is a motorway travelling straight over the top of us. I used to run my own transport company and when they started congestion charging in London, customers were soon complaining when I put the rtates up to cover it. All it is doing for commercial traffic is pushing prices up which will then be passed on to their customers. I agree the only way to cut down the emissions is to stop the traffic full stop, then where would we be.


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## oppy (Jan 6, 2022)

Anyone remember when the government encouraged us all to buy diesel cars? They reduced tax and vat, and then when all us mugs bought one we suddenly became another cash cow!


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

TissyD said:


> Another argument would be why should I pay on the minor roads to the clubhouse when there is a motorway travelling straight over the top of us. I used to run my own transport company and when they started congestion charging in London, customers were soon complaining when I put the rtates up to cover it. All it is doing for commercial traffic is pushing prices up which will then be passed on to their customers. I agree the only way to cut down the emissions is to stop the traffic full stop, then where would we be.



I used to run my own pub garden furniture business.

When they brought in the London congestion charge I simply stopped delivering to London. I always hated delivering there anyway. The last straw for me was when I had to deliver to a restaurant. The owner had told us there were no parking restrictions, when I got there it was on a Red Route!

I challenged the owner about this and he said "If I had said we were on a Red Route, you wouldn't have come". I asked him if he was going to pay the fine and he said no. I then drove off without delivering his 12 picnic tables which he needed for that weekend. I got fined and we both lost out.


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

Manchester City Council are now having a 'rethink' due to the amount of protests from business leaders. In other words, nothing will change, you will pay the LEZ charge and there is not a thing you can do about it.
Well, actually there is something they can do about it, that is to relocate......... resulting in loss of rates and local job opportunities.

Who are the winners then?


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## Robmac (Jan 6, 2022)

izwozral said:


> Manchester City Council are now having a 'rethink' due to the amount of protests from business leaders. In other words, nothing will change, you will pay the LEZ charge and there is not a thing you can do about it.
> Well, actually there is something they can do about it, that is to relocate......... resulting in loss of rates and local job opportunities.
> 
> Who are the winners then?



Trouble is though Ral, relocating is only postponing the inevitable. These rates will be everywhere eventually.


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## izwozral (Jan 6, 2022)

Very true Rob, which is why I said 'coming to a city near you' earlier, really is a case of we can run but we cannot hide situation innit? 

The bar stewards are out to get us, that's for sure.


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## Derekoak (Jan 7, 2022)

Herman said:


> "I live on a main road unfortunately outside Greater Manchester and I will be pleased when the diesel lorries and occasional motorhomes thundering past our house will be dissuaded from coming to our town too."
> 
> Be prepared to see more HGV trundling past your door Derek if you live outside the LEZ, as business leave Manchester in the droves to relocate outside the LEZ to avoid charges. I can see industrial areas like Trafford Park becoming ghost towns as business relocate. Big show arenas that hold camping and motorhome shows will hold shows in Preston or other nearby large towns. Imagine someone having an already expensive stall in the Christmas market now willing to pay upto an extra £60 a day to bring in fresh stock, they will have a stall at Clitheroe next year.


Yes that will happen and then the Lezs will happen in those towns more quickly .
 Like London the original lez will tighten its charges to cover smaller vehicles. Electric rather than internal combustion is the destination.
 The government  is now testing lorries with pantographic charging contacts to overhead wires on the nearside lane of motorways, like electric trains,  for long haulage.


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## Trotter (Jan 7, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> The government  is now testing lorries with pantographic charging contacts to overhead wires on the nearside lane of motorways, like electric trains,  for long haulage.


The sound of another penny dropping.
At last the idea of "Smart Motorways", makes sense. Automated electric goods vehicles in the nearside lane, controlled by radar, giving us back the opportunity to use a "safe" place to leave a broken down vehicle.
Although it does open another can of worms.Where are we going to get all this extra leccy?


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## Derekoak (Jan 7, 2022)

There is a lot more of the north sea to cover with turbines. Don't forget the government wants us all to convert our gas boilers to heat pumps too.


Trotter said:


> The sound of another penny dropping.
> At last the idea of "Smart Motorways", makes sense. Automated electric goods vehicles in the nearside lane, controlled by radar, giving us back the opportunity to use a "safe" place to leave a broken down vehicle.
> Although it does open another can of worms.Where are we going to get all this extra leccy?


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## Fisherman (Jan 7, 2022)

I don’t think any reasonable person would argue that filling city centres with poisonous fumes, which result in health issues for thousands of people each year, and thousands of premature deaths is acceptable. But also what’s not acceptable is we have known about this for decades and done nothing about it. We were even told by Gordon Brown in his “dash for diesel campaign“ that diesel was better for the environment.
What angers people is when politicians find new ways of making money. This should have been done decades ago, so why has it taken so long, why are we so far behind other countries in the EU that have had these LEZ zones for years.
Diesels have never been cleaner than they are now, a new Euro 6 engine is 8 times cleaner than a euro 2, just think of what harm they have done. Is charging people the right way forward, who knows, but to many this just looks like a new way of screwing motorists for more money. Also why charge low mileage motorhomes and not cars. My car has a more powerful engine than my Motorhome.


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## Trotter (Jan 7, 2022)

While I agree in the main with Fisherman. I'm concerned that the LEZ's act as a blanket ban, 24/7. The schemes I've applied for,for travel in France and Germany, only come into force when the air quality locally reaches a certain level. Or so I understand.
Sledge hammer/nut ?
Gordon Browns "dash for diesel", was proof if needed, he'd lost the plot. Perhaps his official car was provided by VW. lol.


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## Robmac (Jan 7, 2022)

Derekoak said:


> There is a lot more of the north sea to cover with turbines. Don't forget the government wants us all to convert our gas boilers to heat pumps too.



I've just looked into getting an air source pump. £15-20k to have one installed, a ground source would be more like £25-30k.


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## Fisherman (Jan 7, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I used to run my own pub garden furniture business.
> 
> When they brought in the London congestion charge I simply stopped delivering to London. I always hated delivering there anyway. The last straw for me was when I had to deliver to a restaurant. The owner had told us there were no parking restrictions, when I got there it was on a Red Route!
> 
> I challenged the owner about this and he said "If I had said we were on a Red Route, you wouldn't have come". I asked him if he was going to pay the fine and he said no. I then drove off without delivering his 12 picnic tables which he needed for that weekend. I got fined and we both lost out.


Looks like you turned the tables on him then Rob


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## Drover (Jan 7, 2022)

Get real, it's just a tax....
If it was to do with the environment they would install a free tram system in every city...


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## Fisherman (Jan 7, 2022)

Drover said:


> Get real, it's just a tax....
> If it was to do with the environment they would install a free tram system in every city...


They have one in Edinburgh that’s cheap as chips, yet Edinburgh is the most polluted city in Scotland. And so far it’s cost £776million, and they may well extend it. Putting a similar system in Manchester would cost billions.


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## Drover (Jan 7, 2022)

Robmac said:


> I've just looked into getting an air source pump. £15-20k to have one installed, a ground source would be more like £25-30k.


We have nearly finished building our small house (single story) including installing a air source heat pump with underfloor heating.
It cost £11,000 . Smallest heat pump available. The grant at the time of purchase gives us £5,000 back (quarterly) over 7 years depending on usage.


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## Drover (Jan 7, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> They have one in Edinburgh that’s cheap as chips, yet Edinburgh is the most polluted city in Scotland.


Clogged up with cars last year when we went there, they were still building the tram system.


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## Fisherman (Jan 7, 2022)

Drover said:


> Clogged up with cars last year when we went there, they were still building the tram system.


They started the work in 2008, and finished in 2014. I don’t know what you saw last year possibly maintenance. But the current system fell well short of what was originally proposed. The original proposed system would have taken the tram through to Leith. But trying to install tram systems into modern cities is very expensive, would take decades in some cases, and is way to disruptive.


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## Robmac (Jan 7, 2022)

Drover said:


> We have nearly finished building our small house (single story) including installing a air source heat pump with underfloor heating.
> It cost £11,000 . Smallest heat pump available. The grant at the time of purchase gives us £5,000 back (quarterly) over 7 years depending on usage.



We are in quite a large bungalow with an (adjoined) annexe to consider as well. Underfloor heating is not an option unfortunately.

I think at the moment the government offer is up to £1500 per year for 7 years.


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## yorkslass (Jan 7, 2022)

RichardHelen262 said:


> It wouldn’t be too bad if it was just  Manchester City but it covers a large area
> 
> View attachment 104790


Crikey,  they have brought it right to the Yorkshire boundary.

Re travelling to Hollingworth Lake.....I travel via Huddersfield, Sowerby Bridge and Ripponden. 

Peter,
You can get over to our side via Holme moss to Holmfirth.

I think it will be the end of the road for  me.


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## winks (Jan 7, 2022)

Our lad lives in Levenshulme and when I walk around there, particularly near the railway station junction on Albert Road, you can taste the pollution in the air. In common with many cities harsh acceleration and braking is the norm and there is a propensity for people sitting with engines idling for far too long. 

I’ve walked past idling vehicles on my way to the shop and they’ve been the same on the way back ten minutes later. Last time I was out with the grandkids a Mustang passed us and parked a couple of hundred metres down the road. Sure as eggs when we walked past the car was idling away with the driver chatting away on the phone. 

The howls of protest that accompanied the closing off of some side road “ rat runs” were notable along with some drivers manoeuvring around the planters at road ends and tipping them over. It has improved the areas behind the main roads but probably increased traffic on them. 

It seems the people of Manchester deserve cleaner air but, in common with us all, we want the ease of car use. Something will have to change for the sake of public health alone. 

From the motorhome use point of view I can see no logical reason for charging at all given the low numbers and infrequent use of these vehicles. The trade vans etc should be cut a bit of slack for a couple of years and the manufacturers will have time then to clean up emissions as demand grows. 

A clean air zone is not a bad thing but it cannot be imposed all at once as has happened in Bath for instance. 

Cheers 

H


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## Drover (Jan 7, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> They started the work in 2008, and finished in 2014. I don’t know what you saw last year possibly maintenance. But the current system fell well short of what was originally proposed. The original proposed system would have taken the tram through to Leith. But trying to install tram systems into modern cities is very expensive, would take decades in some cases, and is way to disruptive.


Gridlocked from St Andrews Square to Newhaven.
Due to be finished 2023.
We stayed in leith 

If they want cars, trucks and other vehicles out of high populated areas for health reasons a tax to drive there is not a deterrent for most of the UK's population.....
The city of London's congestion charge keeps on expanding


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## Fisherman (Jan 7, 2022)

Most people in Scotland felt that the decision to build the tram system in Edinburgh opposed to upgrading the M9 to dual carriageway all the way to Inverness was wrong. Unfortunately politics got in the way, the SNP who were in their first term in power, but in a minority government were out voted on the proposal. Surely improving the road network to Inverness and other towns north of Perth would have been less expensive, and offered more for the people of Scotland. And for the record I don’t vote SNP.

Also London has one of the best tube systems in the world which is still being expanded yet suffers from terrible pollution. Part of the problem being that London sits in a sink where the centre is lower than the outskirts worsening the pollution. The fact is the LEZ has made little difference if you compare it prior to the LEZ first being set up. But as we don’t know what level of traffic would be in use today it’s hard to decide if it’s viable.
But simply improving public transport and reducing costs won’t work. Sadly we will just have put up with this until levels fall lower in future.


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## Robmac (Jan 7, 2022)

Drover said:


> Gridlocked from St Andrews Square to Newhaven.
> Due to be finished 2023.
> We stayed in leith
> 
> ...



I expect the boundary will be the M25 before long.


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## Robmac (Jan 7, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> But simply improving public transport and reducing costs won’t work. Sadly we will just have put up with this until levels fall lower in future.



The problem with public transport Bill is that it is not always safe.

I would not be happy if Julie or my daughter or granddaughter had to travel to some places on public transport.


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## harrow (Jan 7, 2022)




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## RichardHelen262 (Jan 7, 2022)

yorkslass said:


> Crikey,  they have brought it right to the Yorkshire boundary.
> 
> Re travelling to Hollingworth Lake.....I travel via Huddersfield, Sowerby Bridge and Ripponden.
> 
> ...


It will certainly put a stop to a good few members being able to go to the Littleborough meets


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## wildebus (Jan 7, 2022)

500 square miles apparently?
you can still drive THROUGH the zone on the major trunk roads and motorways without charge - you don't necessarily have to avoid the entire area, but it would certainly put me off going to the GM area to stop over in the future at a basic cost of £120 minimum.  Plenty of other locations to visit.
(next visit within that zone likely to be next month, and more than likely that will be the last.)


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## campervanannie (Feb 1, 2022)

Ok so I emailed my local councillor and asked why they had included the outer ring road in The City of Bradfords CAZ and explained that to mot my motorhome it would add another £50/£60 just to drive 2 miles to the mot garage and if it was kept overnight that would double I got a reply this morning so anyone having the same issues worth asking.


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## jagmanx (Feb 1, 2022)

time to buy a new flannel ?..or borrow maybe


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## harrow (Feb 1, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> Also London has one of the best tube systems in the world which is still being expanded yet suffers from terrible pollution. Part of the problem being that London sits in a sink where the centre is lower than the outskirts worsening the pollution. The fact is the LEZ has made little difference if you compare it prior to the LEZ first being set up. But as we don’t know what level of traffic would be in use today it’s hard to decide if it’s viable.
> But simply improving public transport and reducing costs won’t work. Sadly we will just have put up with this until levels fall lower in future.


The fogs are a lot better than when I was kid because everyone and the London power stations used to burn coal, now it looks like the M25 will become the boundary for the *ULEZ.*


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## alcam (Feb 1, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> They started the work in 2008, and finished in 2014. I don’t know what you saw last year possibly maintenance. But the current system fell well short of what was originally proposed. The original proposed system would have taken the tram through to Leith. But trying to install tram systems into modern cities is very expensive, would take decades in some cases, and is way to disruptive.


You could hardly call it a system ! Now being extended to Granton/Newhaven as per original plan [?] . This will make the tram LINE a bit longer
Manchester already has a tram system . Used it a few years ago and was quite impressed .
Edinburgh , unlike many European equivalents , has never bit the bullet regards traffic , particularly in the Old Town . They have widened pavements , changed traffic light sequences etc hoping to annoy the motorist enough to chase them away .
It will be a major problem driving wise for me personally but they need to properly pedestrianise the Old Town


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## Fisherman (Feb 1, 2022)

alcam said:


> You could hardly call it a system ! Now being extended to Granton/Newhaven as per original plan [?] . This will make the tram LINE a bit longer
> Manchester already has a tram system . Used it a few years ago and was quite impressed .
> Edinburgh , unlike many European equivalents , has never bit the bullet regards traffic , particularly in the Old Town . They have widened pavements , changed traffic light sequences etc hoping to annoy the motorist enough to chase them away .
> It will be a major problem driving wise for me personally but they need to properly pedestrianise the Old Town


Spot on, Glasgow went the opposite way with its five motorways.
Most journeys in Glasgow involve getting onto a motorway, then coming off close to your destination. In Edinburgh it’s a nightmare for motorists. But the tram was unable to take the shortest and most viable route into the bargain. For me the tram is no better than a good bus service from the airport. And when you think that the alternative would have been a dual carriageway all the way to Inverness, it made no sense whatsoever.


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## alcam (Feb 2, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> Spot on, Glasgow went the opposite way with its five motorways.
> Most journeys in Glasgow involve getting onto a motorway, then coming off close to your destination. In Edinburgh it’s a nightmare for motorists. But the tram was unable to take the shortest and most viable route into the bargain. For me the tram is no better than a good bus service from the airport. And when you think that the alternative would have been a dual carriageway all the way to Inverness, it made no sense whatsoever.


There were plans to build a ring route through the heart of the Old Town . Thankfully it was scrubbed .
Timed the airport bus a while back . Waverley Bridge [virtually my doorstep] to airport door 25 minutes . Think the tram was a vanity [bung?] project .
Not sure about reference to Inverness dual carriageway ?


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## Fisherman (Feb 2, 2022)

alcam said:


> There were plans to build a ring route through the heart of the Old Town . Thankfully it was scrubbed .
> Timed the airport bus a while back . Waverley Bridge [virtually my doorstep] to airport door 25 minutes . Think the tram was a vanity [bung?] project .
> Not sure about reference to Inverness dual carriageway ?


First before I start I am not an SNP fan, but I did support them on this Alcam.

When the SNP first came to power in Scotland there was debate as too wether or not we should build the vanity project, or upgrade the A9 to dual carriageway all the way from Perth to Inverness. The SNP were a minority government then, they wanted to upgrade the A9, but I reckon out of spite Labour, the Lib Dems, and the Tories voted for the vanity project. All these years later we are still upgrading the A9 in stages, but if we had abandoned the vanity project there would have been a dual carriageway by now between Perth and Inverness, and not only would it have greatly improved travel to the Highlands, but we would have saved many lives. The vanity project was not only a waste of money, it is incomplete, and created havoc for years whilst being installed.









						Upgrading A9 'more relevant than trams' campaigner says
					

A campaigner for improvements to the A9 says improving the route is more relevant than giving Edinburgh trams.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## RichardHelen262 (Feb 2, 2022)

This is one of the new signs, where they had to cut down trees so that it can be seen


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## alcam (Feb 2, 2022)

Fisherman said:


> First before I start I am not an SNP fan, but I did support them on this Alcam.
> 
> When the SNP first came to power in Scotland there was debate as too wether or not we should build the vanity project, or upgrade the A9 to dual carriageway all the way from Perth to Inverness. The SNP were a minority government then, they wanted to upgrade the A9, but I reckon out of spite Labour, the Lib Dems, and the Tories voted for the vanity project. All these years later we are still upgrading the A9 in stages, but if we had abandoned the vanity project there would have been a dual carriageway by now between Perth and Inverness, and not only would it have greatly improved travel to the Highlands, but we would have saved many lives. The vanity project was not only a waste of money, it is incomplete, and created havoc for years whilst being installed.
> 
> ...


No knowledge if A9 was involved ? As far as I'm aware the tram thing was Edinburgh council project . Nothing to do with the politics but when SNP won majority in the council over Labour they tried to cancel the trams but , contractually , that wasn't possible .
All the above may be a crock of keech of course


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 8, 2022)

Clean Air Zones


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