# wild camping whitby north yorks



## maiden1972 (Dec 29, 2012)

Hi every one new to this site ,we went to whitby last new year (2012)and was greated by your ANTI CAMPER LOT !!!.
They even took photo,s !! I have a cheaftain and yes its a bit big but does not bother us size wise.
just wondering if any one has experianced the same or advise us on parking up at whitby cheers


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## maingate (Dec 29, 2012)

I think that Whitby and Scarborough are off limits from 01/01/2013 .... but I might be wrong.

Welcome to the forum by the way. I am not surprised you got a bad reception a year ago but judging by the link I have posted, I don't think you would have been unduly worried. 


chieftain tank - Bing Images


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## onestop (Dec 29, 2012)

Stayed there las two nights with our chieftain no bother stayed near railway station behind coop £6 for 24 hr says no sleeping in your van so close your blinds don't answer door  !! Lol 1st night 4 vans last night 6 vans enjoy we moved north called in at saltburn by the sea the carpark there free till new year no mention of overnighting good luck enjoy


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## maiden1972 (Dec 29, 2012)

*Whitby wild camping*

Ok cheers for that but think its still a bit up in the air how can they police it 11pm till 7am it all boils down to where can you park and we spend loads on food and beer when at these seaside resorts pathetic england that's all no wander we go to Europe regular. Never mind it's the councils fault for the loss of winter revenue !!!!!


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## maiden1972 (Dec 29, 2012)

onestop said:


> Stayed there las two nights with our chieftain no bother stayed near railway station behind coop £6 for 24 hr says no sleeping in your van so close your blinds don't answer door  !! Lol 1st night 4 vans last night 6 vans enjoy we moved north called in at saltburn by the sea the carpark there free till new year no mention of overnighting good luck enjoy



Good think we will give it a try normally park in abbey car park never had any bother at all and down the abbey steps loads o pubs !!!!!


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## onestop (Dec 29, 2012)

Easy walk round from where we were did a couple nice pubs there but our baby with us as one pub had sign up saying kids in pub after 9 would be shot !! L we made back to my fridge lol


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## Deleted member 19733 (Dec 30, 2012)

maiden1972 said:


> Hi every one new to this site ,we went to whitby last new year (2012)and was greated by your ANTI CAMPER LOT !!!.
> They even took photo,s !! I have a cheaftain and yes its a bit big but does not bother us size wise.
> just wondering if any one has experianced the same or advise us on parking up at whitby cheers



:camper:  :have fun:  :welcome:


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## onestop (Dec 31, 2012)

There tonight 4 other vans in so quit even boy racers round at offy getting white lightening  instead spinning wheels happy new year to you all !!


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## Cliffy (Jan 1, 2013)

*Whitby overnight*



maiden1972 said:


> Hi every one new to this site ,we went to whitby last new year (2012)and was greated by your ANTI CAMPER LOT !!!.
> They even took photo,s !! I have a cheaftain and yes its a bit big but does not bother us size wise.
> just wondering if any one has experianced the same or advise us on parking up at whitby cheers



A couple of years ago there used to be two designated MH places near the whale bone arch on the West Cliff. They may have been abolished now after Scarborough Councils increasingly more narrow minded view tomotorhomers. 

Dont be too hard on Whitby, they hate being controlled by Scarborough council. Scarborough as a resort is on the way down and Whitby is on the up and up and Scarbough don't like it, so they do all they can to hold Whitby back. Planning refusals, poor maintentance of facilities etc.

If you don't mind being out of town there a number of places to wild camp in car parks and old road section on both the Pickering road and moor road to Teesside out of Whitby. 

There is also plenty of on road parking  (Surfer vans use quite a bit) along the beach road to Sandsend but I don't know if you would get away with overnighting. 

The North Yorks moors is great place to visit with plenty of nooks and crannys to stop overnight in.


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## Cliffy (Jan 5, 2013)

*Whitby overnight*



Cliffy said:


> A couple of years ago there used to be two designated MH places near the whale bone arch on the West Cliff. They may have been abolished now after Scarborough Councils increasingly more narrow minded view tomotorhomers.
> 
> Dont be too hard on Whitby, they hate being controlled by Scarborough council. Scarborough as a resort is on the way down and Whitby is on the up and up and Scarbough don't like it, so they do all they can to hold Whitby back. Planning refusals, poor maintentance of facilities etc.
> 
> ...



Have just had a day at Whitby in the car. As said by others there are anti camper van notices all over, no parking between 11pm and 7am even on  the beach road at sandsend. So it sounds like behind the railway station is the only place we could possibly get away with it, at least till the powers that be get wind of it.


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## Aladdinsane (Jan 5, 2013)

Cliffy said:


> Have just had a day at Whitby in the car. As said by others there are anti camper van notices all over, no parking between 11pm and 7am even on  the beach road at sandsend. So it sounds like behind the railway station is the only place we could possibly get away with it, at least till the powers that be get wind of it.



The park behind the railway/co op was supposed to be made available for motorcaravans in the original proposal, but SBC said they needed planning consent for change of use. (unlike north Devon who still view it as plain old parking) (I have an Email from their parking officer) I don't see why they cannot put restrictions such as no awnings, cooking outside, no tens, etc. Then all you are doing is parking and sleeping. I WILL be writing to SBC soon regarding their discriminatory signage, reasons for it and also their policy which bans overnight sleeping in ALL of their car parks, but the motorcaravan bans only apply to 12 or so parking areas in the borough.  Quote "All other car parks will allow you to park a motor caravan, however not to sleep/camp overnight"?????  Have I missed something??


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## maureenandtom (Jan 5, 2013)

Cliffy said:


> Have just had a day at Whitby in the car. As said by others there are anti camper van notices all over, no parking between 11pm and 7am even on  the beach road at sandsend. So it sounds like behind the railway station is the only place we could possibly get away with it, at least till the powers that be get wind of it.



That's these signs, right?







Just out of interest, did you happen to notice if there was a single yellow at the kerbside?   Is it clear where the restriction applies?


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## Aladdinsane (Jan 6, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> That's these signs, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good point! I don't think they have painted all the way round Marine Drive, If not, looking at page 15 (i Think) 
on the linky below there should be a warning sign at the entry to the zone where the control is in place. Then they don't need yellow lines?


http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...n/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_191927.pdf


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## maureenandtom (Jan 6, 2013)

Aladdinsane said:


> Good point! I don't think they have painted all the way round Marine Drive, If not, looking at page 15 (i Think)
> on the linky below there should be a warning sign at the entry to the zone where the control is in place. Then they don't need yellow lines?
> 
> 
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...n/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_191927.pdf



Yes, I think that's probably right.   That's the same link I looked up but I missed Page 15.  Thanks for that. I've not been able to find any TRO published and I've not been able to find any advertisement for public consultation before the signs were erected.  Searching on the council's website gives  very sparse information.  Search : North Yorkshire County Council .   I haven't asked the council for a copy of the TRO.

I've done the same search on the  Scarborough website with the same lack of result.   The rules regarding on street parking are the responsibility of N Yorks but the enforcement is Scarborough.  This (these?) councils have a history of erecting signs which have no legal backing as far as enforcement goes.

Whitby Gazette


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## Aladdinsane (Jan 6, 2013)

Had a tootle round the spa and marine drive today, no zonal signs (apart from marine drive which has a "pay and display" zone)  but plenty of no motorcaravan ones. I'm no expert on parking rules and regs but i would bet 20p (max i'm allowed)  that they are unenforceable.


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## yorkslass (Jan 6, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, I think that's probably right.   That's the same link I looked up but I missed Page 15.  Thanks for that. I've not been able to find any TRO published and I've not been able to find any advertisement for public consultation before the signs were erected.  Searching on the council's website gives  very sparse information.  Search : North Yorkshire County Council .   I haven't asked the council for a copy of the TRO.
> 
> I've done the same search on the  Scarborough website with the same lack of result.   The rules regarding on street parking are the responsibility of N Yorks but the enforcement is Scarborough.  This (these?) councils have a history of erecting signs which have no legal backing as far as enforcement goes.
> 
> Whitby Gazette



hi, if you check back to the 17 august post 8 i wrote out word for word a sign posted on a couple of lamposts. i am, like you, still unclear wether they are legal or not.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 6, 2013)

Thanks.   I'd forgotten that and I became immersed in trying to find council stuff published in its website.   You're  in this thread.   http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/wild-camping-motorhome-chat/21489-whitby-again-tro.html

Interesting reading it again.   I think this council gets itself into a mess and I can't for the life of me understand why because they almost had things right.  They seem to make things up as they go along.   Those initial notices were for an experimental period until early 2014, something about combating waste disposal from motorhomes, and there's no indication anywhere that I can find that even that period was authorised properly so who knows what's to happen after that?   Just left quietly in place?

In her email of 24th August 2011, Jane Wilson (Parking Manager) said, _“As there isn’t a vehicle class definition for motorhomes, it would not be possible in legal terms to differentiate between motorhomes and other car park users, even if the Council wished to allow that, which they don’t.”   _

Has the council now found a vehicle class definition?  Has anybody else seen this?   Where did it come from?   The notices certainly differentiate now.   I guess her email would be a reasonable defence in an argument.

Edit:   She was talking about off-street parking, maybe different to on-street.


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## Burtie (Jan 7, 2013)

Try to email the appropriate people and the 
Council at Scarborough I've tried with out
Any reply this is supposed to be Great Britain 
Not discrimination Britain and motorhome 
Owners are being discriminated against


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## maingate (Jan 7, 2013)

Burtie, email Scarborough Council and ask them for a copy of their discrimination policy, Every Council has one. Ask for it under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. By law they must obey within 30 days or they are breaking the law.

Then you can sue them. :hammer:


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## maureenandtom (Jan 7, 2013)

maingate said:


> Burtie, email Scarborough Council and ask them for a copy of their discrimination policy, Every Council has one. Ask for it under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. By law they must obey within 30 days or they are breaking the law.
> 
> Then you can sue them. :hammer:



Maingate, thank you.


Burtie, please do.  I'd like to see their response to you.

 I've asked them for a copy of the bye-law or TRO relating to these signs and identified my request as FOI and I've received this response:

"_Thank you for your written communication of 7 January 2013.  The information that you require is not included within the Council’s formal publication scheme and a referral has been made to the responsible officer to collate a response.

You may expect to receive a response to your request by 4 February 2013, that is within twenty working days of its receipt by the Council._"


Bye-laws and TROs are secret?   Or are they giving themselves time to work out some sort of flannel?


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## yorkslass (Jan 7, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> Maingate, thank you.
> 
> 
> Burtie, please do.  I'd like to see their response to you.
> ...



i await their reply with interest. it"s certainly an odd reply. i have always felt that they shouldn"t be able to discriminate against a particular class of vehicle unless there is a weight issue.


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## John H (Jan 7, 2013)

maureenandtom;272795 

Bye-laws and TROs are secret?   Or are they giving themselves time to work out some sort of flannel?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Bizarre. The only thing I can think of is that you asked for the information under FOI, which gives them an excuse to prevarocate. If you had just asked for the infor straight off I cannot imagine what excuse they could have come up with. But many council officers hide behind "health and safety" and "data protection" when the reality is that there are no such issues - they are just trying to hide information.


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## maingate (Jan 7, 2013)

John H said:


> Bizarre. The only thing I can think of is that you asked for the information under FOI, which gives them an excuse to prevarocate. If you had just asked for the infor straight off I cannot imagine what excuse they could have come up with. But many council officers hide behind "health and safety" and "data protection" when the reality is that there are no such issues - they are just trying to hide information.



So what you are saying John is that if you ask for information, they will give it. If you make them legally responsible to give you that info (ie: FOI Act), they will suddenly prevaricate and try to fob you off. 

Well I never ......... you appear to have a different slant on life to everyone else. :banana:


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

After thinking about this, the council may have been reasonable in not answering with a simple direction to the appropriate TRO.   I also asked other questions – thinking to save time.  I also
asked for the document which now allowed them to discriminate between motorhomes and other car park users quoting their earlier assertion that discrimination would not be legal and I asked them whether a contravention would be dealt with by fixed penalty notice and, if so, the PCN code.

I'll wait to see the proper answers but it might be reasonable in their view to “collate” all the answers into one reply though I can't see why all this information shouldn't be readily available.  

It grieves me to bend over to be fair to the council but there it is – maybe asking for too many documents at once.  I'll let you know their reply when I receive it.


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## kimbowbill (Jan 8, 2013)

Simple solution, spray paint, just paint over the blighters, "i didn't see a no parking sign officer" :lol-053:


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## Aladdinsane (Jan 8, 2013)

There are many facets to this argument with SBC, is the signage legal?, is it discriminatory? why have they not applied the ban to ALL car parks.etc.etc. I wish I had the time to collate evidence/argument against the ban but I don't. 

Here are a couple of email replies I have had, one from North Devon and one from SBC for you info. 

This refers to my question to North Devon Council regarding their decision to allow parking overnight. Prompted by SBC saying they need planning consent for change of use
.  
"*Please accept my apologies for not replying to your email of 13 December 2012 sooner.

It is the Council's view that the use of the car parks will not change.  A car park can be provided by the Council under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and allowing car parks to be used by motor homes will not change that use in planning terms.  In short, they will still be used as car parks.

As you will appreciate I am unable to comment on Scarborough BC decision, but trust the above helps*_"
_

This one is from Jane Wilson of SBC. The reason for the ban is to stop overnight sleeping. Their policy is for NO overnight sleeping in ANY car park but the ban only applies to a few parking areas. They are using the DVLA criteria to define a Motorcaravan. Many (self built) vans have met this criteria but the DVLA class them as vans with windows on the V5 (this has changed recently) My van meets the criteria but it's a panel van on the V5 (i'd just leave the table at home) So many vans can park (and sleep) overnight but not those with "Motocaravan" on the V5 

"*Firstly it would be beneficial to explain the policy on motor caravan parking.  Our car parks are controlled by traffic regulation orders made under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. One of the grounds for such an order is the improvement or protection of the amenities of an area.  We have as an authority always taken the view that overnight sleeping, camping and cooking on our car parks, is an undesirable practice for our resort.  Our orders therefore prohibit these practices for all car parks users, not just motor caravan owners.  The policy applies to all Scarborough Borough Council Car Parks and has done for a number of years. 

Council Members have expressed concern about the increased level of overnight camping on the Council’s car parks as enforcement was not effective, and have received similar complaints from local traders and residents, equally there has been correspondence received from motor caravan owners, wishing to park their vehicles without constraints and requests for dedicated provisions for motor homes.  This prompted a recent review of the policy.

The Council has a Parking Review Group which was set up to review at regular intervals all aspects of the Parking Service, including changes in Service delivery and parking orders. This Group is made up of cross Party Councillors from around the Borough. The Members of Parking Review Group, have completed this review in which consideration was given to providing dedicated provisions to allow motor caravans to camp in a number of SBC car parks.

Members became aware that allowing the overnight stay of motor caravans on car parks was considered to represent a material change of use from car park to a mix of car park and camping/caravan and would therefore require planning permission. Planning advice was sought and current planning policy did not support an application.  Planning consider that there are sufficient sites and pitches available in the Borough  Therefore the option was not pursued.

Whilst I appreciate that you do not necessarily agree with the motor caravan prohibition a statutory consultation process was followed. Traffic and parking order proposals are advertised in a formal manner and people had a right to place objections provided these are based on certain grounds. We are required by law to advertise in accordance with the rigid requirements set out in the Local Authorities Traffic Orders (Procedure)(England and Wales)Regulations, which includes advertising by public notice on site and in the local newspaper.  The objections received were considered by members prior to final approval. 

The objections report (item 15) can be viewed on the link below, which should answers the majority of your questions.

Agenda for Cabinet on Tuesday, 16th October, 2012, 10.00 am

Parking by motor caravans will be prohibited on the following car parks between 11pm and 7am from  1 January 2013

Scarborough
                Spa Drive & Forecourt, Marine Drive, West Pier, King Street, Eastborough, and Quay Street

                Whitby
                Pavilion Top & Drive, West Cliff, Church Street, Endeavour Wharf and Marina Back

                Filey
                Station Avenue and Country Park

All other car parks will allow you to park a motor caravan, however not to sleep/camp overnight.

I have noted your comments regarding costs to implement the ban.  There are costs involved with placing the signage in the car parks which totaled £964.  There is no loss of income as there are no charges applicable between 6pm and 9am.

I am aware that Debbie in the parking services team has spoken to you in reference to the classification of the motor caravans.  The definition is

“Motor Caravan” means a vehicle of category M with living accommodation space which contains the following equipment as a minimum:

(a) seats and table;
(b) sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats;
(c) cooking facilities;
(d) storage facilities

A Penalty Charge Notice will be issued to any vehicle which appears to fit this criteria*"


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maingate said:


> So what you are saying John is that if you ask for information, they will give it. If you make them legally responsible to give you that info (ie: FOI Act), they will suddenly prevaricate and try to fob you off.
> 
> Well I never ......... you appear to have a different slant on life to everyone else. :banana:



No Jim, I am not saying that at all. I am trying to get into their way of thinking to understand what excuses they might come up with - its called knowing your enemy!

I, like everybody else, find their response bizarre (as I said) but it may be that they are hiding behind the procedural processes that go along with a FOI request. It may be, therefore, that if you simply asked them for the information (which you are entitled to have as a matter of course, you don't have to use FOI) then that would close off an avenue of excuses for them.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

I'd guess that the response I eventually get will pretty well duplicate the above.

I can't get rid of the feeling though that there's something wrong.   For as start, members had agreed to provide a year's trial of three Aires.  Then this planning thing came up as an objection - a successful objection - and the whole thing folded.    Well, planning policy ought to be made my members, is that not right?    It's up to members, surely, to decide planning policy though maybe subject to national rules and policies.  But basically up to members.  

I still have this feeling that employees are against the scheme and probably feel that as professionals they have the right, even duty,  to exercise what they see as their own better judgement and that their opposition has been effective in overruling democracy.


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> I'd guess that the response I eventually get will pretty well duplicate the above.
> 
> I can't get rid of the feeling though that there's something wrong.   For as start, members had agreed to provide a year's trial of three Aires.  Then this planning thing came up as an objection - a successful objection - and the whole thing folded.    Well, planning policy ought to be made my members, is that not right?    It's up to members, surely, to decide planning policy though maybe subject to national rules and policies.  But basically up to members.
> 
> I still have this feeling that employees are against the scheme and probably feel that as professionals they have the right, even duty,  to exercise what they see as their own better judgement and that their opposition has been effective in overruling democracy.



You are right about the way planning policy is made: officially by members within Government guidelines but in reality by officers. If the members are strong (as that guy in North Devon appears to be) then they can over-rule officers but unfortunately many councillors do not have the knowledge nor the will to run counter to advice given by officers - especially if the officers imply that there might be legal and/or financial consequences of not taking that advice.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

Thanks John, pretty much what I thought.   However,




John H said:


> . . .  If the members are wrong (as that guy in North Devon appears to be) then they can over-rule officers . . .




Do you mean this one?

From Alladinsane above:

I_t is the Council's view that the use of the car parks will not change.  A car park can be provided by the Council under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and allowing car parks to be used by motor homes will not change that use in planning terms.  In short, they will still be used as car parks._

...


His view is  my view too and I've used it now and again.  Why does it appear to be wrong?    Is there a discrimination argument in here somewhere?  The council once said they couldn't discriminate.    Can we find something somewhere that says they were right then and wrong now?

How do Barristers look up Case Law?  A precedent somewhere that says Chelsea Tractors can be used on school runs or something that we can adapt for our own purposes.


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## mikejay (Jan 8, 2013)

Last time i was at scarborough in August there where 3 caravans parked up over night on the sea front parked right across a lot a car parking spaces 2 of the vans where big twin axle vans will the new signs stop them? as they are not motor caravans?


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

Caravans are not included in the restriction.   So they can enjoy a night without the worry of a PCN in the morning – or they will have a good argument for having it quashed – the restriction doesn't apply to them.

Now that, coupled with the idea that it might be worthwhile looking up precedents set in a court says maybe it's time for a little lateral thinking.  What about my human rights to have a motor caravan?  Why should a local authority restrict me?   So with a little amusement I investigated that …. and look what I found. No need for amusement;  the right exists.

I have a right to enjoy my property peacefully and this right can only be taken away if there is a very good reason.   It says so;  look:

The council does not have good reason.  It allows caravans where it restricts motor caravans so what is the good reason?   And – I should have a claim for compensation.  How about that then?

But now that I have an argument (You have no good reason for restricting my human right to enjoy my property?  This good reason to apply only to motor caravans and not to other vehicles such as caravans), how would I go about insisting upon it.  Wait until a ticket is issued or take it up with them now?

EHRC - Protection of property


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> Thanks John, pretty much what I thought.   However,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bloody 'ell, I must be going doolally (either that or I'll blame bloody predictive text!). That should have read "strong" not "wrong" - I have corrected it in my original post so that it now makes a bit more sense!


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> How do Barristers look up Case Law?  A precedent somewhere that says Chelsea Tractors can be used on school runs or something that we can adapt for our own purposes.



The official sources of Case Law are the Law Reports. Some 2,500 are published each year (c.2% of all judgements and the ones deemed most likely to introduce new principles or modify old ones). They are published by the Incorporated Council of Law Reporting and are also usually summarised in legal magazines such as the Law Quarterly Review. Most senior barristers would have a team of people rummaging through the Case Law for them, otherwise it could take an awful long time to find anything useful!


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

John H said:


> The official sources of Case Law are the Law Reports. Some 2,500 are published each year (c.2% of all judgements and the ones deemed most likely to introduce new principles or modify old ones). They are published by the Incorporated Council of Law Reporting and are also usually summarised in legal magazines such as the Law Quarterly Review. Most senior barristers would have a team of people rummaging through the Case Law for them, otherwise it could take an awful long time to find anything useful!



Unless there was an index to shorten the search.   And there is:

British and Irish Legal Information Institute

 or

BAILII - Case Law Search

Fascinating stuff but I'm now hampered by my inexperience of succinctly putting a search reference.

But absolutely fascinating.  Any suggestions as to what to search on?  So far I'm not able to narrow the searches sufficiently.


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> Unless there was an index to shorten the search.   And there is:
> 
> British and Irish Legal Information Institute
> 
> ...



You have identified the problem yourself - an index is only useful if you know what you are looking for in the first place, and there is no easy answer to what to look for. Useful information turns up in the most unexpected places sometimes. Which is why they have teams of people researching!


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## Burtie (Jan 8, 2013)

I will be bombarding the council at Scarborough again with emails I did have replies
At one time but that was probably a year ago and yes they always did reply in that way
I will receive an answer in 24 days the first I ever knew about all this anti motorhome
Whatever they want to call it was forgive me if I am wrong was because of a motorhome
Parking up at the top end of Whitby well I have parked up there a time or two myself 
I can't see the harm in doing so therefore if that's the way the residents of Scarborough 
And Whitby want to be then god help them when I go back that way as I have a bigger 
Motorhome now


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

John H said:


> You have identified the problem yourself - an index is only useful if you know what you are looking for in the first place, and there is no easy answer to what to look for. Useful information turns up in the most unexpected places sometimes. Which is why they have teams of people researching!



And do they get paid for this kindergarten stuff?


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

Because of the secrecy involving all this stuff - I had thought that TROs had to identify exactly what was required.  For example:  I would have expected a TRO limiting parking outside my home to say something like, _"Section whatever, paragraph whatever, sub-paragraph whatever:  *No Waiting is permitted outside Tom's House*"_

I've never seen a TRO and my one request to see one has been delayed though I do expect eventually to see it.  Does it, perhaps, have a provision that the council can make an order, like that one of Jane's above, and it is valid because the TRO says the council can make such an order?    Or does the council make a decision and it only becomes valid once incorporated physically into the TRO and which can then be seen by people like us?

I'd like to add a bit to the information about North Devon in Alladinsane's excellent post above:   This from UKMotorhomes.net - UK Motorhome Stopover News











Although they do intend to provide authorised parking places for motorhome at, I think, five car parks, all their other car parks still try to deny overnight sleeping.   On at least two of these it's reported on UKMotorhomes.net that the council will not try to enforce that.  I have good reason to believe that they will not enforce that ruling on any of their car parks.  That rule is impossible to enforce which is why N Devon has given up trying.  On all their car parks, the offence of cooking, sleeping, camping has disappeared.


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> And do they get paid for this kindergarten stuff?



Strange question. Yes - and if you think it is kindergarten stuff then you should have no trouble finding what you want before breakfast :lol-053:

Btw my earlier reference to North Devon was about the thread "Overnight stays to be allowed on North Devon car parks" started by Andy C


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## maureenandtom (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes, thank you John.   As you say, I should have no trouble.  Before Breakfast?  Yeah, ok.

I was actually adding to Alladinsanes post but I think we're all pleased with N Devon's decision.   I emailed the council with my thanks too.   I like to think I had a small hand in making it happen and I do want to see all councils doing the same.  

Back to N Yorks, it nearly happened and I dearly want to know what went wrong.  I've got suspicions about this planning permission thing but the whole thing doesn't seem right.   I know you think it was set up to go wrong from the start and, looking back,  I think you're probably right there.  But if so, why did it get so close to happening?  I'll carry on digging for a while.


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## John H (Jan 8, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, thank you John.   As you say, I should have no trouble.  Before Breakfast?  Yeah, ok.
> 
> I was actually adding to Alladinsanes post but I think we're all pleased with N Devon's decision.   I emailed the council with my thanks too.   I like to think I had a small hand in making it happen and I do want to see all councils doing the same.
> 
> Back to N Yorks, it nearly happened and I dearly want to know what went wrong.  I've got suspicions about this planning permission thing but the whole thing doesn't seem right.   I know you think it was set up to go wrong from the start and, looking back,  I think you're probably right there.  But if so, why did it get so close to happening?  I'll carry on digging for a while.



Good luck.


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## Burtie (Jan 8, 2013)

John H said:


> Good luck.



The very first thing I heard what went on was the residents complaining in Whitby 
And other tourists in hotels because they had to look out the windows at a line
Of motorhomes why it escalated to Scarborough ill never know because marine 
Drive was empty most nights apart from about seven or eight motorhomes
Guaranteed every night it is full of boy racers up and down there


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## Burtie (Jan 9, 2013)

For everybody who was asking I finally emailed Scarborough council and this was their reply notice all the
Other names and emails sent back I think they just pass the buck unless they are sitting on a merry go round. So I decided to email all them to plus I emailed their councillor I can't wait to hear their replies


From Scarborough council
﻿I am sorry but I am currently away from the office.  I will not have access to any emails during this period, therefore please direct your query to one of the following officers identified below:

For parking enquiries and matters relating to the Open Air Theatre please contact Stuart Clark, Tel. 01723 232453, 
stuart.clark@scarborough.gov.uk 

For matters relating to the Harbours, both at Scarborough and Whitby, contact Ian Vasey, Tel 01947 602354, 
ian.vasey@scarborough.gov.uk 

For Leisure Services contact Andrew Williams, Leisure Services Manager, Tel 01723 383610,
andrew.williams@scarborough.gov.uk

For any queries relating to Tourism Marketing and Promotion, General Tourism Development, Tourism Management 
Information, Events, Festivals, Filming or general Tourism queries please contact Janet Deacon on 
janet.deacon@scarborough.gov.uk,
Tel 01723 232570 or mobile 07967465319

If your message relates to Scarborough Spa or Whitby Pavilion please contact Helen Broadbent on 01723 357869.

Alternatively, you may contact my PA, Jane Groom on 01723 232437, jane.groom@scarborough.gov.uk 

Failing that, you may contact the Strategic Director, Hilary Jones, on 01723 232340, hilary.jones@scarborough.gov.uk 

Many thanks.

Brian Bennett


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## yorkslass (Jan 9, 2013)

when the the scarborough/ whitby debate came up i tried to look into the introduction of a tro and got the impression that it took about twelve months to put one in place yet the notices only went up in june/ july last year


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## highlander1947 (Jan 9, 2013)

*new to site*

will look at whitby usualy go down in the car but will try abbey car park :raofl:


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## Burtie (Jan 10, 2013)

I received another email from Scarborough council I basically asked them why my emails keep getting passed around to people who don't know anything and can't give a straight answer and also why it takes that long for a reply I did ask about the discrimination policy as some of you asked me to so let's see

This is the reply I got
Diane cross
I refer to your email appended below.

I act as a conduit for recording all Freedom of Information requests received by the Authority.   Therefore, your email addressed to Stuart Clark,  where you specifically requested under the Freedom of Information Act, a copy of the Discrimination Policy for Motorhome Parking,  was forwarded to me to register and acknowledge. 

As you will be aware, the the Act states that any requests made under the Freedom of Information Act should be responded to within 20 working days at the latest and you received a standard acknowledgement informing you of this.  In many situations, depending on the information requested, responses are done much before the deadline.   A member of the Council's Parking Services team will be responding to your request as soon as possible.

I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

Yours sincerely


Di Cross
Administration and Information Officer, Legal and Democratic Services
Scarborough Borough Council
e:diane.cross@scarborough.gov.uk
t:01723 232347 (DL)
f:0870 2384159
w:Home | Scarborough Borough Council


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## maureenandtom (Jan 10, 2013)

You're not alone Burtie;  employees in Scarborough public services don't even answer councillors.


Councillor: I was ignored - Local - The Scarborough News


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## Burtie (Jan 10, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> You're not alone Burtie;  employees in Scarborough public services don't even answer councillors.
> 
> 
> I even emailed the councillor in Scarborough her reply is below
> ...


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## Vanessa (Jan 10, 2013)

There's a carpark in whitby on north cliff where all the coaches park where you can park overnight. We stayed for one night last year with no problems.


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## Burtie (Jan 10, 2013)

Vanessa said:


> There's a carpark in whitby on north cliff where all the coaches park where you can park overnight. We stayed for one night last year with no problems.



I think if going to Whitby that we had better be careful as some parts of the cliffs are collapsing
As I have read in the paper thismorning


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## monkey wood (Jan 10, 2013)

*was you in a van*

I,ve wild camped around Whitby in a tent sandsend and along Esk valley and never had any probs


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## Burtie (Jan 10, 2013)

monkey wood said:


> I,ve wild camped around Whitby in a tent sandsend and along Esk valley and never had any probs



i think this is recently developing apparently the rumors are that the residents dont like motorhomes in their towns


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## sak (Mar 13, 2013)

*No Overnight Sleeping in Council Car Parks*

So are you allowed to park overnight as long as you stay awake until 6am then can you sleep during the day, if a council employee knocks on your motorhome door at 3am and you open the door you are awake, maybe not happy, but not asleep.
Have i started something now, sorry.


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## Deleted member 13867 (Mar 13, 2013)

I do wonder about the validity of the 'No Sleeping' Rules How do they prove the crime? as by the time they have knocked on the door you are no longer asleep. In the highway code if you feel tired or drowsy you should pull in and take a rest.This is what you should do.
*'If you feel at all sleepy, stop in a safe place. Do not stop on the hard shoulder of a motorway'*
If any enforcement officer moves you on at night make sure you get him/her to sign a disclaimer which in the event of you causing an accident whilst driving tired will remove the onus of any blame from you.
They will probably not move you on in these circumstances. Worth a try don't you think.
Dave


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## Deleted member 13867 (Mar 13, 2013)

*perhaps this form may stop you being moved on at night*

*To Whom it may concern.*
Whilst attending to my normal duties I have become aware that the driver of a motor vehicle bearing the Registration  Number X123ABC Mr Joe Bloggs appeared to be resting in the vehicle due to his self confessed inability to carry on driving safely due to severe tiredness. I conclude that the driver of this vehicle is not tired or inhibited and I have instructed him to carry on his journey and will take full and complete responsibility for any actions, safety issues or accidents which may arise during or following this decision. The decision to instruct Mr Joe Bloggs to drive against his will and judgment whilst in this state is mine and mine alone.
Please enter your details below.
Enforcing Officers Number or Reference…….
Date
Time
Location
Signature


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## Smaug (Mar 13, 2013)

No-one will take responsibility for you having an accident. They will simply say that in their judgement you were not in any way impaired by tiredness, drugs or alcohol & it was perfectly safe for you to move the vehicle. Any accicdent would be a consequence of the driver's incompetence or lack of judgement & not tiredness etc. Very hard to dispute that then. Cause too much hassle & you will be carted off to the cells & your vehicle towed away & impounded until you cough up the relevant fee for its recovery.

I think some on here grossly underestimate the powers of the Police to cause you hassle if they wish to. Are all your lights working, tyres legal, docs in order, etc etc etc. If they only tow you off for a vehicle safety  check & breathalyse you & issue you with a document check, you will be stressed out for hours. 

Do you really think this is the land of freedom, democracy & rights?


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## Deleted member 13867 (Mar 13, 2013)

Smaug said:


> No-one will take responsibility for you having an accident. They will simply say that in their judgement you were not in any way impaired by tiredness, drugs or alcohol & it was perfectly safe for you to move the vehicle. Any accicdent would be a consequence of the driver's incompetence or lack of judgement & not tiredness etc. Very hard to dispute that then. Cause too much hassle & you will be carted off to the cells & your vehicle towed away & impounded until you cough up the relevant fee for its recovery.
> 
> I think some on here grossly underestimate the powers of the Police to cause you hassle if they wish to. Are all your lights working, tyres legal, docs in order, etc etc etc. If they only tow you off for a vehicle safety  check & breathalyse you & issue you with a document check, you will be stressed out for hours.
> 
> Do you really think this is the land of freedom, democracy & rights?



Tongue was firmly in cheek !


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