# Which Gas for Europe?



## Archie007 (Dec 11, 2010)

Can anybody help me with this please.

We are new to motor homing and are off to Europe for about 3 months, mostly wild camping. I would like to know which gas is freely available in France/Italy/Greece so I can get the appropriate regulator before we leave the UK.

Many thanks


----------



## Tony Lee (Dec 11, 2010)

First you need to check your appliances to see whether they are suitable for either propane or butane and if so what pressure is recommended. Most modern RV appliances will accept either and the regulator is set to an "average" pressure to cope with either.

Either type of gas is available (propane preferable because it will still work in well below freezing temperatures) but you may need to purchase a bottle that is more universally acceptable


----------



## defitzi (Dec 11, 2010)

*gAS*


i LWAYS USE cONTINENTAL IN EUROPE  the good thing is they are now standardising so that different bottles and sizes all use a snap on connection so no need to chamnge the regulator. The cubn is I tjhinkl thje most suitable (it's 7.5 kg but not sure of coimes both propane or butane  or just one of the two..... then  there;s a 11-f polastic bottl;e which has a sight guage built in   I've found on e of these plaus a cube ideal  saves space and always have a reserve ands the near universality of refills in France &Southern Belgium ensures I never run out! 
For my small Kangoo "Roo" camper I've stuck with camping gas  but it is outrageously expensive for the biggest bottle-just 2.5 kg: however you can get it  in almost every hyper market and elsewhere including the B&Q type stores and camp site so it has some advantages but for my (new-old) Vito I'll use the cubes abroad. Do'nt know if they are available in  UK as yet  if not then THEY reaLLY SHOULD BE BUT... WELL THIS IS THE uk.... LATE NEWS cALORGAS IN bELFAST ABANDONED cAMPING gASS AND SO SUPLIES IN nORTHERN iRELAnd are heard to come by- there is one  guy in East belfast takes them to the ROI for refill and so  has to charge accordinghly which end the price rocketing up from the already overpriced charge for a refill!


----------



## lebesset (Dec 12, 2010)

aechie 

what sort of gas bottle are you using now  [ what size /brand , how big a bottle will go in  and how many ?]
when do you plan to go ?


----------



## Skar (Dec 12, 2010)

I was recently advised to get one of these, it works for me and may be suitable for you.


----------



## Archie007 (Dec 13, 2010)

lebesset said:


> aechie
> 
> what sort of gas bottle are you using now  [ what size /brand , how big a bottle will go in  and how many ?]
> when do you plan to go ?


 
Thanks to every one for your replies and help.  To answer the above question we have room for 2 cylinders. The existing one is a 6KG propane and the cylinder is orange.  We plan to go in May 2011 so plenty of time at the moment.

***** -thanks for the suggestion. I am happy to keep things as they are for the moment but may consider this option in the future.

Tony - Yes I think I will keep the existing 6kg propane and add another for European use.

At the moment it seems I need to buy a bottle and connector in France. So my next question is which one (Which make) and where. Also can I buy a connector in the UK, which one and where?

Thanks again

Arch


----------



## lebesset (Dec 13, 2010)

quite simple really 
in france you can't get your bottles filled 
in italy and greece I have never had a problem , always someone who will fill a foreign bottle 

therefore you want a french bottle , and energas is the one that is widely available and will fit a locker that takes a 6 Kg calor bottle if that is what you have , or you can have a look to see if yours is the same size

énergaz les nouvelles bouteilles butane & propane

as you can see the website lists every point of sale in france under.. ou trouver energas..... divided by departements , and showing whether or not they stock both butane and propane 

presuming you have the regulator screwed onto the bottle the regulator that fits the calor 4.5 Kg butane dumpy , 27 or 30mbar will do nicely ...all new fitments in europe for both butane and propane are now 30mbar but all the old 27/30/37/50 work fine ; of course you can get a regulator anywhere in france , most of the supermarkets sell them as they do gas 

at that time of year I would get a butane because it is cheaper , butane and propane bottles are identical so you can swop between them if required

you are unlucky , the price of the bottle has gone up...from €1 !

as you can see there is a stockist in calais , just inland from the port , so you can stock up immediately you arrive [ if that is your route ] and save your UK bottle as a reserve for when the energas runs out , so come with a full one !

incidentally , energas is the cheapest gas available in france , only fractionally more expensive than buying from the lpg pump


----------



## Archie007 (Dec 13, 2010)

lebesset said:


> quite simple really
> in france you can't get your bottles filled
> in italy and greece I have never had a problem , always someone who will fill a foreign bottle
> 
> ...


 
Hi Lebesset

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. This all looks like my ideal solution except that the regulator (30 mbar) is attached to the housing of the gas locker. The cylinder is then attached via a hose. I guess I attach a second hose with a 'y shaped connector and a stop valve?

Many thanks


----------



## lebesset (Dec 13, 2010)

even easier ! you see why I asked the questions before , and still had to guess what you had eg you didn't say what brand of gas you had , and orange doesn't tell me the fitment !

all sorts of devices available , T pieces/auto change overs etc , to enable you to fit a second hose [ they are high pressure and known as pigtails to distinguish them from the low pressure hoses ]

personally I would get a T piece with a stop tap to each arm , even though I have an auto myself ...problem with that is you have to remember to keep checking when the first bottle is empty and you have switched to the second bottle , otherwise you can end up with 2 empty bottles !! which is why I now keep the second bottle shut off , and don't really have an auto system , if you see what I mean 

the new pigtail is easily available in the uk because it is needed for the  the dumpy calor 4.5 butane already mentioned

incidentally , when I said I had no problems getting foreign bottles filled in greece/italy I didn't mean uk ones with their odd threads ...didn't see any adaptors for them ; but a lot of people had an adaptor for the french /german/dutch/belgium thread like energas 

you may find it cheaper to look on the internet for the bits

bonne route


----------



## lebesset (Dec 13, 2010)

what's the point ? as long as you can swop your bottles where you can't get them filled , and can get them filled wherever you can't swop , why waste your money ?

after all , normal gas bottles are manufactured to be refilled ...what else do people like calor do ?

I used to have a fixed tank outfit ...gave that up years ago , too much hastle and worry !

eg , I am just off to spain for the winter , I can swop my repsol bottle anywhere in s.france /spain/portugal  ; why would I pay a higher price to fill a bottle from the pump ...when I can get to one !


----------



## John H (Dec 13, 2010)

lebesset said:


> what's the point ? as long as you can swop your bottles where you can't get them filled , and can get them filled wherever you can't swop , why waste your money ?


 
Well, for a start, if you are travelling widely in Europe, as we do, then you cannot readily swap bottles because one brand will not accept the bottles of another - and most peole have room for no more than two bottles in their vans. If you restrict your travels to where you can easily access one or two different producers then fair enough, but we like to have the freedom to roam - and LPG is available everywhere.


----------



## lebesset (Dec 13, 2010)

why would you need to swop bottles , except in some w.european countries they just refill what you have , where is the problem ?

if I am going south I take a french and a spanish , east a french and a german 
never been out of gas in 30 years ....and that is anywhere between 6 and 12 months a year 

n.america just take an american bottle ...again between 6 and 12 months a year 

 in other words , I take refillable bottles , because they all are !


----------



## syldale (Dec 13, 2010)

*gas bottles*

hi archie 007 i agree with ***** buy refillable bottles gas low or similar we are on our third m/h  with this system a l.p.g book with all the sat nav  locations and addresses they free up space not breaking your back keep fitting them in place looking for some where to exchange them just look up the garage on-route and fill up magic swinging dodgy.


----------



## Kontiki (Dec 13, 2010)

I also think the simplest solution is a single re-fillable Alugas 11 kg bottle, I also carry a calorlite 6 kg bottle for the BBq (this could be used if we ever did run out) With the re-fillable you can just top it up anytime without having to worry about overfilling that might happen with a normal bottle. We know that under normal use the 11 kg bottle will last 22 days so it is just a case of topping it up after a couple of weeks to be on the safe side. Only place where there might be problems are Spain where there aren't as many filling stations for LPG.

As for wasting money I don't see where that comes in  If you fit a re-fillable cylinder you can take it out of the van if you change vans to use on the next one. In 2 years we have used 224 litres (about 110 kgs) average cost works out around 50p a litre.


----------



## Nosha (Dec 13, 2010)

I may be wrong, but I thought Camping Gaz cylinders are available in most EU countries; they're small but very light. I'm thinking of the ones with the screw on top regulator 807? (About 4kg).


----------



## Kontiki (Dec 13, 2010)

Camping Gaz is probably the most expensive option of LPG. It is also butane which can be a problem if you are winter camping


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

lebesset said:


> why would you need to swop bottles , except in some w.european countries they just refill what you have , where is the problem ?
> 
> if I am going south I take a french and a spanish , east a french and a german
> never been out of gas in 30 years ....and that is anywhere between 6 and 12 months a year
> ...



They are, of course, all refillable because at some stage they are re-filled BUT Calor etc tell you that they should not be refilled on the forecourt but exchanged. This may simply be a way of getting more money out of you BUT what if you have an accident after refilling? Your insurance company will at least pay you less than if you had obeyed the rules or at worse nothing at all. I would far rather have a valid insurance policy than slightly cheaper gas. Also, I have seen people re-filling exchange bottles and it can be frightening. One guy filled it until no more would go in and then, because you are not supposed to have completely full bottles, stuck a stick in the valve until he had judged that enough had been released. 

Just because something is possible doesn't make it wise.


----------



## lebesset (Dec 14, 2010)

what has your insurance got to do with taking your bottle to someone and having it refilled ? 
frankly it is safer to take an empty bottle and put in a measured quantity than to rely on a cut out valve ! I have had the valve fail 3 times and got filled too much 

the refillable bottles referred to are just normal bottles with a valve 

petrol is far more volatile than LPG ...have you ever put petrol in a vehicle , far more dangerous 

if you fill a lpg bottle to the top the pressure will be approx 10 bar , and the design pressure is 30 bar with an operating pressure of 15 bar ; the danger comes if liquid goes up the pipe to your appliances , which is why you shouldn't overfill 

if you don't know your 2 times table , and can't read , filling gas bottles is dangerous 
otherwise it is one of the safer things to do , millions are filled every day ...you think that people who operate lpg pumps don't know what they are doing ? that they can't fill your bottles safely ?


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

lebesset said:


> what has your insurance got to do with taking your bottle to someone and having it refilled ?


 
Let me explain it slowly. If you do not follow the manufacturer's instructions and then have an accident, your insurance company will have a let out - BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT FOLLOWED THE INSTRUCTIONS. It doesn't matter whether you are the world's leading expert on gas, if you give them a let out they will take it. Clear now?


----------



## lebesset (Dec 14, 2010)

let me be absolutely clear ; if I take a bottle somewhere to have it filled they take responsibility 
and stating otherwise is erroneous


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

lebesset said:


> let me be absolutely clear ; if i take a bottle somewhere to have it filled they take responsibility
> and stating otherwise is erroneous


 
No they dont - YOU are responsible if you go against the manufacturer's instructions!!!!!


----------



## lebesset (Dec 14, 2010)

let me be absolutely clear ; if I take a bottle somewhere to have it filled they take responsibility 
and stating otherwise is erroneous


----------



## lebesset (Dec 14, 2010)

no I am not ...they are doing so


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

***** is right - you are giving potentially dangerous advice - and repeating the same error doesn't make it any better. You may think you can avoid taking responsibility for your actions but I assure you that in the event of an accident the insurance company will not let you.


----------



## Archie007 (Dec 14, 2010)

*Another question........*

Ive clearly started a debate here!  Thanks to all those who have made suggestions.

I've looked into the Gaslow refillable system. Its very expensive for what I want so Im going to stick with 1 calor gas bottle and another, freely available one from  France.

It looks like Energaz is favorite. 

At the moment I have a Gaslow Easy-Fit connector attached to the regulator by a stainless steel hose. 

Can any body help please, with the details of the correct adaptor (and the supplier if poss) so I can connect the Easy-Fit onto an Energaz cylinder?

Many thanks again


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

***** said:


> However the company accepting the job of refilling the bottle should be insured and I would have thought that they would be deemed to be the experts and not the customer.


 
If the company knowingly fills the cylinder against the manufacturer's instructions, then their insurance will also be invalidated. But the critical thing here is that the customer is in control of the situation; the customer is the one who insists on the refill; the company is simply following instructions from the customer. Both have broken the rules but the customer is the prime agent.


----------



## lebesset (Dec 14, 2010)

sorry archie , not familiar with the uk manufacturers so can't help you there 

but if you don't want to install the double system to have both bottles connected at the same time , wouldn't it be as easy to buy the other pigtail for and swop that when needed ?

LPG Pigtails,Cylinder Connectors, Tank Connectors, Washers and Spanners

looks like £4.16 + VAT to me 

by the way , you buy your french bottle , so you can do what you please with it ...calor can only get away with the rental scam because of their monopoly position


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

***** said:


> John, but wouldn't it them be a case of the dealer is the expert and the customer is the layman who doesn't know a thing. The dealer should know better and if unsafe should have refused to refill.



But the customer is not, in the eyes of the law, a layman in this situation. The customer agreed to the terms and conditions when he bought/hired the cylinder. The customer therefore knows (or should know) that he would not be complying with those terms and conditions. There may be an element of blame to be attributed to the company that refills the cylinder but the prime blame rests with the customer. It is also worth bearing in mind that the rules about refilling may be different in, say, Romania, but if anything goes wrong you are insured by a British company who will hold you to the original terms and conditions, not whatever the law is in Romania! Quite simply, it is not worth taking the risk.

The following may be of interest: 
The UKLPG (the Trade Association for the LPG industry) issues advice that portable cylinders should NOT be refilled at Autogas stations. Systems which are attached (and Gaslow comes into this category) are ok to be refilled in this way but not portable cylinders (whoever manufactures them and whether they are bought or hired). 

They further say that “under no circumstances should cylinders which are not designed for user refilling be refilled other than by the cylinder supplier's authorised agent”. And they go on to say that “Such refilling would also be in breach of the conditions of supply ....and thus illegal”. 

Seems clear enough to me – but if anybody wants to take the chance..............


----------



## madria (Dec 14, 2010)

*Utterly Gassed*

Hi Archie,  I have a single fitted 11.5 gaslow which is filled at lpg stations and a lightweight plastic/fiberglass Calypso 11.5 (almost same weight full as my previous small 6kg calor was empty) bought from a french supermarket complete with Elf adapter for 19Euro about 2 years ago  which I use for the BBQ and if needed a backup but must admit I have never had to,  don't forget a decent/legal  lenght of the correct hose and quality  jubilee clips for coupling up if you do decide to buy over in france 

 regards mick


----------



## John H (Dec 14, 2010)

***** said:


> John, good point about the law differentials in different countries.
> When we had our Alugas fitted we had heard about possible problems refilling even the proper refillable bottles and with this in mind we decided not to have the filler fitting fitted inside the gas locker and had it fitted externally.
> Not had a problem filling up to now (but only one season) so fingers crossed. I suppose that if you don't need to open a gas locker door or remove a cylinder the garages assume that you have under-slung fixed tanks


 
I think you'll find that Alugas, like Gaslow, is ok - they are designed to be refilled by the customer and they are "fixed" in the sense that they do not have to be removed from the vehicle to be refilled. They don't have to be under-slung to be refillable under the rules. Our Gaslow filler fitting is fixed inside the gas locker because I didn't want another hole drilled in the van and because I wanted to be able to remove the whole thing and fit it in a new van if and when we get one.


----------



## Archie007 (Dec 15, 2010)

madria said:


> Hi Archie,  I have a single fitted 11.5 gaslow which is filled at lpg stations and a lightweight plastic/fiberglass Calypso 11.5 (almost same weight full as my previous small 6kg calor was empty) bought from a french supermarket complete with Elf adapter for 19Euro about 2 years ago  which I use for the BBQ and if needed a backup but must admit I have never had to,  don't forget a decent/legal  lenght of the correct hose and quality  jubilee clips for coupling up if you do decide to buy over in france
> 
> regards mick


 
Great advice.  Many thanks


----------

