# Possible Permitted Overnight Parking in Whitby



## maureenandtom (Jun 17, 2020)

Yes, honest, Whitby.



			North Yorks Enquirer   |  Whitby Abbey ‘Aire’ – a Winter Lifeline


----------



## jeffmossy (Jun 17, 2020)

TBH I think Scarborough Council dug there own hole over the past few years by not wanting motorhomes anywhere near there towns , I for one wont be going or give them any of my pennies , I will go to towns that has welcomed us such as St Annes and Fleetwood


----------



## trixie88 (Jun 17, 2020)

wow..that would be great..........see it can be done ........when it suits them............if it comes to friuition............maybe other councils will follow...MAYBE???? we still have the virus......so that could be a big iffy.......fingers crossed anyway.....


----------



## molly 2 (Jun 17, 2020)

With hotels and BnB closed  MH  could fill the gap in the short term then what ??


----------



## jeffmossy (Jun 17, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> With hotels and BnB closed  MH  could fill the gap in the short term then what ??


Then they would ban us again Barry


----------



## RichardHelen262 (Jun 17, 2020)

It looks like we will be welcome in the winter, but not in the spring and summer ?
we Used to love going to Whitby but I think I will now spend my money where I am welcome all year round


----------



## ChrisInNotts (Jun 17, 2020)

What an excellent opportunity to show them the previous error of their ways.  If the carpark is heaving in the winter with all that extra revenue then surely a permanent Aire could well follow.  Cash is King and the current epidemic may allow them to reverse their previous hostile view with grace.  We certainly will be going as its a lovely part of the country.

Keith


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 17, 2020)

They couldn't have picked a worse car park in Whitby.
But plenty of exercise up and down the 199 abbey steps.

The free shuttle bus ends 2nd Sept.


----------



## Toffeecat (Jun 17, 2020)

Ill be there. Like to walk along to the cliffs to get fossils on the beach and photograph the wreck at Black Nabb Saltwick Bay


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 17, 2020)

Much as it’s tempting to spit in their eyes for past attitudes, it would seem politic to exploit the opportunity and encourage them and hopefully they will in due course see the error of their ways.


----------



## kensowerby (Jun 17, 2020)

They didn't want us when times were good but now they are in the preverbial  we are very welcome, HOW TWO FACED CAN THEY GET? heads.
I spend my money where I am welcome.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 17, 2020)

kensowerby said:


> They didn't want us when times were good but now they are in the preverbial  we are very welcome, HOW TWO FACED CAN THEY GET? heads.
> I spend my money where I am welcome.



Well you will be welcome if it happens.


----------



## QFour (Jun 17, 2020)

Whats the point of putting the facilities at the top of the hill. I am certainly not going to be walking up and down the 199 steps. They have facilities at the Marina car park so what's wrong with those. Amazing that they have just realised that they have been turning away trade for all the local businesses. They lost our trade a few years ago and we head for Sea Houses instead.


----------



## yorkslass (Jun 17, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> They couldn't have picked a worse car park in Whitby.
> But plenty of exercise up and down the 199 abbey steps.
> 
> The free shuttle bus ends 2nd Sept.


True, but back in the day that was where everyone used to camp......used to be very colourful.


----------



## yorkieowl (Jun 17, 2020)

How very welcoming, allowing you to park up out of town, so you can come spend your cash,  oh but only in winter,  we don’t want you parking up and visiting in the summer months when we have enough tourists without you. Don’t think so, but then it’s not high on my list of places to revisit anyway.


----------



## Makzine (Jun 17, 2020)

My partner is disabled so are they going to put in a stair lift...………………..... I don't think so


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 17, 2020)

I could well use it even though I have never had a problem staying in Whitby. It's a big carpark  out of the way so should be quiet and a taxi after the pubs shut will only be a few quid.   

One things for sure if councils don't  people moan, if councils do people moan. 
What do you want a prime spot in the middle of town with a view all facilities and a machine to give you a tenner as you drive in.


----------



## yorkieowl (Jun 17, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> What do you want a prime spot in the middle of town with a view all facilities and a machine to give you a tenner as you drive in.


Oh ok, that might...just... encourage me to go.


----------



## witzend (Jun 17, 2020)

"Well I Don't Believe It" what's next maybe Cornwall Council changing their attitude to motorhomers


----------



## mickymost (Jun 18, 2020)

So this proposal is from an "Ex Council Member" Shame they werent so welcoming in the recent past banning all Motorhomes and Campervans in the Car Parks.I suppose if  people are out buying Campervans and Motorhomes due to Staycations then these new  owners wont know of past shannanigans with the Council and probably will visit in their vans.Many Like myself who know whats happened in the past will stay well clear of Whitby and other places that have banned us and will go to somewhere that has welcomed us with open arms.These are the places that deserve our cash.


----------



## runnach (Jun 18, 2020)

As s former ratepayer to Scarborough council, I have been critical in the past of their antics and “tourist prevention officers” attitude towards visitors . 

What is often overlooked in the case of Whitby (and Filey) is the residents themselves are oppressed by SBC . give or take Whitby to Scarborough is just shy of 20 miles. the decision making processes equally 20 miles away and the locals with justification feel the poor relatives investment and policy concentrates around the town of Scarborough itself no where else matters

It is no different to this area which falls under Kirklees there is a strong resentment that Huddersfield receives all the spoils and Dewsbury if lucky gets a few scraps..

Of course it happens all over the country, but worth considering it isn’t the townsfolk of Whitby itself that has created problems in The past before we write off the town completely.

The car park suggested, is quiet enough , not surrounded by local hotels etc who could raise possible objections or campsites arguing a conflict of interest. A taxi to and fro the town centre will see change from a fiver each way and allows folk to have a drink or two if visiting the hostelries in the town. Oh and taxis are part of the local economy .

In the longer term if the idea is successful then who knows  the calendar may be extended ? In either event the proposal is more than we have at the moment


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 18, 2020)

jeffmossy said:


> TBH I think Scarborough Council dug there own hole over the past few years by not wanting motorhomes anywhere near there towns , I for one wont be going or give them any of my pennies , I will go to towns that has welcomed us such as St Annes and Fleetwood



Hi Jeff, It's wotth remembering that the welcome in Fleetwood came about because the council initially introduced regulations banning us.   The usual reason – numerous complaints about us (there were none; actually four in three years, I tthink, about parking,  none about motorhomes).

The arguments disputing the Wyre Borough Council off-street parking orders were successful -  resulting in a one year trial in limited places.   It was all documented here and there were those who said they would refuse to go there – wouldn't be seen dead there.  No mistake though – the Fleetwood permissions came about because of a disputing of their initial prohibition.   I'm not sure how the St Annes permission came about.

The Whitby proposals may come to nothing but this could become a valuable asset to us and another example we can use, if successful, for other projects in other places.  Like you're using Fleetwood as an example now.   Plenty of towns very much reliant on tourism.    An opportunity?


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 18, 2020)

channa said:


> As s former ratepayer to Scarborough council, I have been critical in the past of their antics and “tourist prevention officers” attitude towards visitors .
> 
> What is often overlooked in the case of Whitby (and Filey) is the residents themselves are oppressed by SBC . give or take Whitby to Scarborough is just shy of 20 miles. the decision making processes equally 20 miles away and the locals with justification feel the poor relatives investment and policy concentrates around the town of Scarborough itself no where else matters
> 
> ...



Thanks Channa,     It's worth remembering, too, that the restrictions in Whitby were extended not too long ago because of around a thousand complaints from residents – the counci said.   The councl was not able to produce one.  Not one!

The reason why the council could lnot produce even one was, the council said, that they received thousands of complaints and their filing systems could not isolate those about motorhome parking.

It was documented here on Wild Camping.

The people of Whitby have never complained about us in any form the council has been able to produce


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 18, 2020)

mickymost said:


> So this proposal is from an "Ex Council Member" Shame they werent so welcoming in the recent past banning all Motorhomes and Campervans in the Car Parks.I suppose if  people are out buying Campervans and Motorhomes due to Staycations then these new  owners wont know of past shannanigans with the Council and probably will visit in their vans.Many Like myself who know whats happened in the past will stay well clear of Whitby and other places that have banned us and will go to somewhere that has welcomed us with open arms.These are the places that deserve our cash.



Maybe this ex councilor was welcoming, do you know how this this ex councilor voted at meetings. Where exactly are you "welcomed with open arms" and not just merely tolerated.
To me any alteration in any council policy that is a benefit to us should be encouraged. Whitby has never banned campervans/ motorcaravans. I have always found somewhere to park


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 18, 2020)

helen262 said:


> It looks like we will be welcome in the winter, but not in the spring and summer ?
> we Used to love going to Whitby but I think I will now spend my money where I am welcome all year round



Unless things change, and change soon, soon there will be hardly anywhere where we will be welcomed. Attitudes on both sides must change. We have to show people that we are not a bunch characters hell bent on simply freeloading our way from place to place. Unfortunately in this country and sadly within our own community, there is an attitude that we are not much better than travellers. We are not seen for what we actually are. People who in their latter years wish to enjoy the freedom that retirement from work offers. We after contributing so much to our country simply wish our country to recognise us for what we are, not what an active minority wish them to think. It’s a real shame that organisations that could and should support their own members subscribe to this rubbish, but as we seen in the CCC magazine last month they do.

I see this development in Whitby although only for six months of the year as a positive development, to be grasped with both hands. An opportunity to prove the misinformed wrong, and to show the public and those running the council who we really are.


----------



## campervanannie (Jun 18, 2020)

Well I welcome the decision small steps and all that if it goes through I will go and as far as I am aware there is another access to the town for disabled scooters/wheelchairs that brings you out on church St at the back of the harbour, but let’s hope those that do use it are not going to start getting out the chairs and bbqs because that’s the issue it’s not the parking it’s the turning every carpark into a campsite that spoils it for everyone You only have to look at the sea life centres carpark in Scarborough.


----------



## winks (Jun 18, 2020)

Cheers

H


----------



## mickymost (Jun 18, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> Maybe this ex councilor was welcoming, do you know how this this ex councilor voted at meetings. Where exactly are you "welcomed with open arms" and not just merely tolerated.
> To me any alteration in any council policy that is a benefit to us should be encouraged. Whitby has never banned campervans/ motorcaravans. I have always found somewhere to park




I have NO KNOWLEDGE who this person is only from what I found after clicking the Link on the OP posting, you could do the same and get the same information as I did.Several areas in the UK are accomodating to motorhomes and are not just tolerating us..They even have marked motorhome bays in the Council Car Parks.If they were just "TOLERATING US" as you put it they wouldnt go to the trouble of marked bays.Correct me if im wrong but I thought Whitby HAD BANNED MOTORHOMES. And the Marina Car Park allowed Motorhomes if you owned a Boat in the Marina Only.

An article copied from a local Newspaper
* decision has been made about motorhome owners parking overnight in Whitby.*

Overnight parking bans will be implemented on the 1st of August to Endeavour Wharf and Battery Parade.

But an amendment was approved for those who use Whitby Marina's car park.

During today's cabinet meeting, Councillor Mike Cockerill said:



> _"In regards to the Marina users car park, and I'm emphasizing its Marina users.
> Motor caravans are only allowed to park within the clear marked Marina car park.
> This would mean that motor caravans belonging to permit holders are not allowed to park elsewhere if the spaces allocated are all taken.
> And that the owners of such motor caravans are required to leave their curtains open to show that they're not being used for camping."_


Councillor Sandra Turner said:



> _"We've got to taken into consideration that the boat owners do pay for the permits and they do need access to their boats.
> And not all of us own just cars, some people own a motorhome for normal everyday use.
> So including the amendment, that would address that issue, so I would quite be happy to support that."_


Residents have complained for a couple of years about motorhomes being parked up and ruining views of the harbour.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 18, 2020)

mickymost said:


> I have NO KNOWLEDGE who this person is only from what I found after clicking the Link on the OP posting, you could do the same and get the same information as I did.Several areas in the UK are accomodating to motorhomes and are not just tolerating us..They even have marked motorhome bays in the Council Car Parks.If they were just "TOLERATING US" as you put it they wouldnt go to the trouble of marked bays.Correct me if im wrong but I thought Whitby HAD BANNED MOTORHOMES. And the Marina Car Park allowed Motorhomes if you owned a Boat in the Marina Only.
> 
> An article copied from a local Newspaper
> * decision has been made about motorhome owners parking overnight in Whitby.*
> ...


Well put, I tolerate idiots sometimes, and folk who cannot utter a sentence without swearing, or who need a shower. We are not asking to be pampered either, another common comment on here. It’s car drivers with no toilets, and no facilities that need to be pampered and they are. Are car drivers tolerated, no they are not. They are provided for with parking places, toilets and even running water and showers sometimes. I don’t want to be tolerated or pampered, just treated with the same respect as everyone else.


----------



## yorkslass (Jun 18, 2020)

mickymost said:


> I have NO KNOWLEDGE who this person is only from what I found after clicking the Link on the OP posting, you could do the same and get the same information as I did.Several areas in the UK are accomodating to motorhomes and are not just tolerating us..They even have marked motorhome bays in the Council Car Parks.If they were just "TOLERATING US" as you put it they wouldnt go to the trouble of marked bays.Correct me if im wrong but I thought Whitby HAD BANNED MOTORHOMES. And the Marina Car Park allowed Motorhomes if you owned a Boat in the Marina Only.
> 
> An article copied from a local Newspaper
> * decision has been made about motorhome owners parking overnight in Whitby.*
> ...


Views of the harbour

Motorhomes are allowed to park In the car park further on from the co-op during the day.
The issue is overnight parking........it's dark.......you can't see a motorhome or anything else for that matter.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 18, 2020)

yorkslass said:


> Views of the harbour
> 
> Motorhomes are allowed to park In the car park further on from the co-op during the day.
> The issue is overnight parking........it's dark.......you can't see a motorhome or anything else for that matter.




Arent all nights Dark "in theory" so are you suggesting if you overnighted you wouldnt be seen?


----------



## wildebus (Jun 18, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> How very welcoming, allowing you to park up out of town, so you can come spend your cash,  oh but only in winter,  we don’t want you parking up and visiting in the summer months when we have enough tourists without you. Don’t think so, but then it’s not high on my list of places to revisit anyway.


Whitby is so busy in the summer would you really want to go there then anyway?


----------



## yorkieowl (Jun 18, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Whitby is so busy in the summer would you really want to go there then anyway?


As stated in my post it’s not on my list of places to revisit - summer or winter.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 18, 2020)

mickymost said:


> I have NO KNOWLEDGE who this person is only from what I found after clicking the Link on the OP posting, you could do the same and get the same information as I did.Several areas in the UK are accomodating to motorhomes and are not just tolerating us..They even have marked motorhome bays in the Council Car Parks.If they were just "TOLERATING US" as you put it they wouldnt go to the trouble of marked bays.Correct me if im wrong but I thought Whitby HAD BANNED MOTORHOMES. And the Marina Car Park allowed Motorhomes if you owned a Boat in the Marina Only.
> 
> An article copied from a local Newspaper
> * decision has been made about motorhome owners parking overnight in Whitby.*
> ...



There is a massive difference between saying Whitby has banned motorhomes. which they haven't, To saying motorhomes can't park overnight in a relatively few places.
I wonder why the council thought they needed to take such action.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 18, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> There is a massive difference between saying Whitby has banned motorhomes. which they haven't, To saying motorhomes can't park overnight in a relatively few places.
> *I wonder why the council thought they needed to take such action.*
> 
> View attachment 83531



Because of complaints.   It's always in response to complaints.

Mickeymost referred to the news article saying so in his post earlier.  Post number 28.  You quoted it.

Asked to produce the complaints the council was unable ot do so = providing evidence of only two complaints over a period of three years up to the report.  (Actually three but two of them seemed to be the same complainant repeated).


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 18, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Because of complaints.   It's always in response to complaints.
> 
> Mickeymost referred to the news article saying so in his post earlier.  Post number 28.  You quoted it.
> 
> ...



And as you know well just because there are no complaints put in writing doesn't mean people haven't complained verbally to the councilors. Many can't be arsed putting pen to paper or emails. Unlike yourself.
Again. There is a massive difference between saying Whitby has banned motorhomes. which they haven't, To saying motorhomes can't park overnight in a relatively few places.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 18, 2020)

If local government says it is responding to complaints and yet can not quote any ... who is to say there are any?   There must have been or the counci would not have said so?    I can not accept that.   The council says there are complaints so it must have a record - even if reported verbally to, and then recorded by, councillors.    I'd be happy to see a record from Councillor X saying he'd received such and such a complaint but, no, there is never any record of complaints.   Well, hardly ever.

Lack of accountability that some will accept from councils has led to some alarming injustices.     Believe some councils, over many years, and there was no child abuse in several council areas.   Lack of transparency led to continuing abuse.  

Local government has to be transparent and must account for itself to citizens.  If it does not then it has the capacity to become corrupt.

Well, we'll see.   The proposals might not come off but so far they seem to have the backing of some influential local poliicians and fairly substantial support from local businesses as well as, over the years, support from residents - sometimes recorded by the press in its comments columns.    Then we'll see if the council reports a surge in the numbers of complaints from residents in response to permitted overnight parking.  Doesn't have to be much of a surge from two in three years but I don;t think we'lll see one.

I've not been to Whitby or Scarborough since I was stationed in N Yorks in the late 60's but I'd like to go again and I'd like to see the proposals succeeed.

Nitpicking over whether a ban is a blanket ban or just a ban in all car parks and most roads is just nitpicking.   There's presently a ban.   There's a possibility it might be partially lifted.  What's to argue about?


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 18, 2020)

Well this is the email address of Councillor Derek Bastiman mentioned as leader of the Conservative Group mentioned in the article. 
mailto:cllr.derek.bastiman@scarborough.gov.uk

Anybody fancy writing to him with words of encouragement? I feel correspondence coming on, but it would be better coming from a ratepayer.


----------



## Goggles (Jun 18, 2020)

I presume that will be from November until March?


----------



## mickymost (Jun 18, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> And as you know well just because there are no complaints put in writing doesn't mean people haven't complained verbally to the councilors. Many can't be arsed putting pen to paper or emails. Unlike yourself.
> Again. There is a massive difference between saying Whitby has banned motorhomes. which they haven't, To saying motorhomes can't park overnight in a relatively few places.




In MaureenandToms post above your post An Article in the Teeside News states Whitby Council has stopped car parks being used for overnight camping after some complaints.It doesnt say some i/e a few car parks it says car parks. Now if I read that article from afar I would assume by the wording that all car parks in Whitby were out of bounds for Motorhome/Campervan overnight stopovers,and I wouldnt bother visiting hoping for a stopover feeling I would be wasting my time


----------



## yorkslass (Jun 19, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Arent all nights Dark "in theory" so are you suggesting if you overnighted you wouldnt be seen?


I'm saying that complaints about views being spoiled by motorhomes, are not answered by stopping overnight parking, when they can't be seen anyway.


----------



## yorkslass (Jun 19, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> There is a massive difference between saying Whitby has banned motorhomes. which they haven't, To saying motorhomes can't park overnight in a relatively few places.
> I wonder why the council thought they needed to take such action.
> 
> View attachment 83531


To be fair, i'm guessing that photo was taken at either regatta or folk week, both of which have always been busy and strangely enough, the abbey car park was always the place to park. Full circle?


----------



## antiqueman (Jun 19, 2020)

so now they want my money, I used to go to whitby often and spend lots in the pubs there was told by the council to go away or use a campsite, I did say to the council person will you run me back to the campsite after the pubs have closed, guess the answer. Anyway I banned myself from whitby, feel sorry for the pub landlords.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 19, 2020)

channa said:


> As s former ratepayer to Scarborough council, I have been critical in the past of their antics and “tourist prevention officers” attitude towards visitors .
> 
> What is often overlooked in the case of Whitby (and Filey) is the residents themselves are oppressed by SBC . give or take Whitby to Scarborough is just shy of 20 miles. the decision making processes equally 20 miles away and the locals with justification feel the poor relatives investment and policy concentrates around the town of Scarborough itself no where else matters
> 
> ...




Hi Channa,

As you so often do, you reminded me of something I should have remembered myself.  A couple of years ago Whitby Town Council passed a motion of no confidence in Scarborough Borough Council.  I've looked up a Whitby Gazetter report at the time.

https://www.whitbygazette.co.uk/news/whexit-calls-after-town-council-no-confidence-vote-740779

It caused me to smile a little when I read it, but this is the result of genuine resentment in the town.  There was an online public petition calling for the no confidence vote attracting 2,269 signatures but I've not been able to find the final results of the petition.

_Following the vote there have been calls from the public for a Brexit -type independence dubbed “Whexit”.
The town council motion was carried at the monthly town council meeting held at Pannett Park, with the Scarborough governance of Whitby called into question._

We probably have more support in the town than we think we have.  Perhaps 2.269 (at least) on our side versus the three against.   Whexit!


----------



## undertaker (Jun 19, 2020)

I’ll start by declaring my hand on this, I have history of cutting off  my nose to spite my face, but in the case of Whitby and surrounding areas under the control of Scarborough council I’ll make an exception. 
There is no doubt that we are in changed times. How many of us are currently wondering whether the special destinations which we personally cherish are under threat and perish the thought, destined to be now gone for ever. With this in mind shouldn’t we grasp every opportunity offered? Yes, the Whitby proposal isn’t ideal, perhaps the council has got more faces than the town hall clock, but it’s an encouraging signal. As someone suggested above most other tourist destinations will also be desperately looking for ways to bolster their economy, so perhaps the wider mood will change, therefore opening opportunities previously closed. This started me thinking what would change opinions about our community, we are after all, law abiding, friendly, clean and tidy pillars of society and most importantly for Whitby and all other destinations we do spend. Problem is, we are all under the radar, (some of us intentionally more than others I accept). Go into a shop, pub, restaurant what does the trader see, just a non local, ie tourist, 5 star hotel, b&b, day tripper, who knows? Possibly not a motorhomer because they don’t spend do they? At least that’s what we are told trader and council perception of us is. So here is my idea, many of us are happy to display a wildcamping / motorhomer sticker on our vans. What are the views regarding something similar when we are out and about bolstering the local economy? I’m thinking something like the little sticker you get when you donate to a charity flag day. Peel off identification backing on the Whitby Aire parking ticket? Or something generic like, motorhomer here to support your local economy. Then the business people could identify us as the free spending community that we are (tongue firmly in cheek here). So when councils are considering the value of welcoming us local traders can say “yes we do get motorhomer customers” (get us some more hopefully), rather than “no idea”.

My question  is,

Would you be prepared to wear a discreet sticker identifying you as a motorhomer visiting to bolster the local economy?


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 19, 2020)

yorkslass said:


> To be fair, i'm guessing that photo was taken at either regatta or folk week, both of which have always been busy and strangely enough, the abbey car park was always the place to park. Full circle?



It doesn't really matter when the photo was taken, the fact is it ended up looking like that, there must be nigh on 100 vans in there if not more, Its nearly as bad as Honfleur for vans.    If i remember rightly it was even worse for the Goth weekend and shortly after that the clamp down started for the following season.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 19, 2020)

Well here I go again, another letter, I hope it helps and I wont get castigated again for putting pen to paper...or finger to key. 
(by the way, I regret the paragraph on fishing in a previous letter, it came from the original template letter and I neglected to delete it, I don't even think it appropriate or necessary myself).

Before I press the send button let me invite constructive comment, corrections, any useful facts or figures...

Dear Councillor Bastiman

*Motorhome parking in Whitby*

I write to you in your role as Conservative leader in Scarborough Council to offer congratulations and support in respect of the letter written by Sandra Turner as reported in North Yorks Enquirer June 17 2020 and wholeheartedly endorsed by local business interests in Whitby. This proposes provision of parking facilities in winter for motorhomes in Whitby.

I am a motorhomer, a retired architect, and member of a forum of responsible motorhome owners which includes members, largely retired, from many professions and walks of life. I and most of our members have been deliberately bypassing Whitby in recent years as a result of the councils hostile attitude towards motorhomers. It is a shame, I and others would like to visit. 

However I have to say with regret that this proposal appears only to be a knee jerk reaction to the current devastating loss of tourist business in the town. A proper sustainable long term strategy is required that addresses the all year round demand for overnight stop facilities in England for the more than 250,000 UK motorhome owners and many thousands of visiting Europeans, not just in winter.

I have taken the liberty, in the hope that it might be helpful to you, of putting together below a brief summary of what I believe to be the current state of affairs concerning touring motorhomes in England. I am aware many involved in making decisions about facilities for motorhomers actually have very little knowledge of the issues that concern them. 

I sincerely hope you will be able to make some progress with this issue as the situation in general is deteriorating at an increasing rate


*Types of motorhome user*

Motorhome users are by no means a homogenous group. Although dismissed as such by the uninformed, motorhomers are not gypsies, tinkers or new age travellers and should not be treated as such. Those groups have their own needs and issues that should be addressed quite separately. 


The main categories are…

Families with children who spend an occasional one or two week holiday involving camping gear, barbecues, toys and children’s activities which need a safe and secure environment, along with full sanitary facilities all of which are best provided by campsites.   

Weekenders taking a break who are largely self contained for a few days. They travel mostly in spring to autumn autumn. They want close access to outdoor activities, towns and villages. They frequently eat out and shop and are happy to pay for local services and restaurants provided there is available parking for motorhomes or access on foot.

Older people collectively account for the largest number of nights spent in motorhomes. Retired people are free to travel all year round, including winter and may take extended tours of weeks or months in duration. Their limited budgets are necessarily spread over long periods. They need to and willingly spend in local shops, restaurants and attractions but simply can’t afford to do so if they must spend £25 to £30 a night on campsites. The motorhome is an ideal way for older people to spend their last days visiting so many of those places they never had time or opportunity to see in their working lives. Many of these people have significant disabilities and medical issues that render a motorhome their ideal or only viable means of transport or holiday accommodation.

A smaller number of younger people seeking the experience of travelling, sometimes as a ‘year out’, often from abroad, usually travelling on limited budgets and who can only afford occasional use of campsites.

European motorhomers arrive in their thousands, mostly in holiday periods but with many retired people able to travel longer term and off season. Many arrive expecting to find facilities for motorhomes like at home, and are greatly disappointed when they find no motorhome stops or service facilities, and discover campsites solidly booked all summer. Often they can’t even find anywhere to park a motorhome to visit towns. I have personally spoken to quite a number in France, Germany and Italy who say that despite liking the country they would never return because of the lack of facilities and the general hostility of local authorities; albeit some have said they would be happy to revisit Scotland where they feel welcome if it didn’t mean travelling through England.


*The nature of motorhome travel*

The attraction of the motorhome is that it offers the opportunity of unscheduled exploration at home and abroad, and the opportunity to stop in wild remote places. The modern motorhome offers a self contained environment complete with on-board water, sanitation, and waste storage, and even solar power. Their basic need is for no more than somewhere to park, access to a water tap, a bin and waste disposal point once every 3-6 days. 


*A growing problem*

There have been motorhomers quietly moving around for many years, parking innocuously in quiet corners, lay-bys and carparks troubling nobody and largely unnoticed and accepted. However in the last two decades numbers have increased enormously, a vigorous industry has burgeoned manufacturing and trading motorhomes, and more recently hire companies have sprung up releasing droves of inexperienced motorhomers onto the roads.


*Behaviour of motorhomers.*

There are a number of groups or forums to which a large proportion of regular motorhomers belong. These encourage a code of conduct which basically is:
Be quiet, discrete and courteous, avoid inconveniencing local residents.
Put nothing outside, take nothing but photos and memories, leave nothing behind.
Dispose of waste responsibly.
Where possible spend locally and support local businesses.

Motorhomers are frequently berated as a whole for what are the actions of a relatively tiny minority. I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. 

Although I have never seen it personally it would be unrealistic to believe there doesn’t exist a minority whose behaviour causes concern. The release onto the road in recent years of a flood of inexperienced hirers without adequate instruction is something that may well need scrutiny. Nevertheless there is a well established principle in British jurisprudence that groups or categories of people cannot be penalised for the actions of a few.


*The UK’s response to motorhomes*

Unlike their counterparts abroad local authorities in the UK have reacted to motorhomers as a group with blatant hostility. ‘No camping’, ‘no overnight parking’ and other signs have proliferated, many illegal and unenforceable, others misusing powers under PSPOs and TROs intended for other purposes. Height barriers have sprung up making it even impossible even to park short term. Too many have simply tried to move the problem down the road creating a more intense problem in the next Borough. Left hands are out of co-ordination with right hands, Tourist organisations are encouraging visitors, Councils are driving them away. 

Many of these measures by councils have been driven by urban myths and complaints manufactured by vested interests. 

Campsite owners bewail the loss of trade. With due respect to them many would rather go elsewhere than pay for the large pitches, toilet blocks, play facilities, activity rooms, reception offices and maintenance staff appropriate to caravans and tents but that self contained motorhomes simply do not need or want.

Hoteliers and B&B proprietors object to loss of trade. There is no way motorhomers would want a hotel, that is trade they have already lost and will not see again. What their objections achieve is to deprive other businesses, restaurants, shops, pubs and attractions in their vicinity the trade that would otherwise come from motorhomers.

Many of the complaints by locals claimed by councils appear to be exaggerated or fictitious. Of the thousand alleged by the council at  Whitby, for example, following a Public Request for Information in August 2018 only three could be substantiated and of them two appeared to derive from the same person.  

Only a precious few authorities such as Canterbury, Fyfe, Fleetwood and St Annes have actually started to address the need to manage motorhome numbers in a  enlightened, constructive and much appreciated manner that encourages motorhome tourists to visit their towns whilst managing numbers and providing appropriate facilities.

The two main UK caravan and camping clubs, historically dominated by caravaners and tenters, whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members have doggedly resisted providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities suitable for motorhomes. Many campsites located to suit the need for people in cars are inconvenient for motorhome users who need to be able walk or cycle into towns or villages where motorhome parking is impractical. Most will not allow non-resident motorhomes to access dump stations or water.


*Other nation’s response to motorhomes*

Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs, and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places for motorhomes (variously called Aires de Service, Aree di Sosta, Wohnmobile Stellplatz etc. according to country). These may range from places where motorhomes are simply tolerated, designated spaces in carparks, dedicated motorhome only parks, up to some like basic mini campsites. Some use overnight capacity of otherwise empty carparks to gain extra revenue from motorhomes.

Subject to type and quality, the degree to which it is desired to attract or limit visitors, and the popularity of the location, prices charged range normally from 5 to 15 euros, albeit many basic parking sites are free. Payment is usually by cash or card using automat or parking machine. Recognising that motorhomes do not need services every day, water and sanitation are normally separately charged. Sanitation is normally free to encourage proper disposal with a charge of 1 or 2 euros for fresh water. In respect of the increase in motorhome use many campsites now include a basic low cost overnight motorhome parking and service facility, encouraged by local authorities they also permit paid access to services by non-resident motorhomes. 

In some countries, typically New Zealand and Scandinavia but also some in France, separate ‘dump stations’ are provided at garages, LA facilities, local sewage plants etc. to obviate the need for facilities at individual parking areas.

Generally it is made clear these locations are intended for self contained motorhomes with their own water and waste holding tanks, not caravans, tents or small campers. ‘Camping behaviour’ is forbidden including placing outside of chairs, tables, barbecues and other camping paraphernalia. Periods of stay are normally limited to 48 or 72 hours. I am not aware of any such provisions that have ever been overrun by ‘Travellers’.


*Covid 19,…It can only get worse*

Every year many thousands of motorhomers wanting to explore foreign parts, or simply like myself, to get away from a country where they feel so unwelcome escape abroad across the channel. Their numbers probably significantly outweigh the number of incoming European motorhomes. Thanks to the pandemic many of the Brits will be staying at home this year and much of next. One further impact of Covid is a massive increase reported by dealers in the last few weeks in motorhome sales. After all the motorhome is now the only available safe self-isolated form of transport available. Thus lots more new inexperienced motorhomers will be out on the road. Many campsites are already mostly fully booked for July and August, even though they are not even yet open. The problem gets ever bigger whilst properly thought through means to address it seem to be as far away as ever, and will remain so as long as the majority of local authorities continue to bury their heads in the sand. 


Yours faithfully....


----------



## antiquesam (Jun 19, 2020)

undertaker said:


> I’ll start by declaring my hand on this, I have history of cutting off  my nose to spite my face, but in the case of Whitby and surrounding areas under the control of Scarborough council I’ll make an exception.
> There is no doubt that we are in changed times. How many of us are currently wondering whether the special destinations which we personally cherish are under threat and perish the thought, destined to be now gone for ever. With this in mind shouldn’t we grasp every opportunity offered? Yes, the Whitby proposal isn’t ideal, perhaps the council has got more faces than the town hall clock, but it’s an encouraging signal. As someone suggested above most other tourist destinations will also be desperately looking for ways to bolster their economy, so perhaps the wider mood will change, therefore opening opportunities previously closed. This started me thinking what would change opinions about our community, we are after all, law abiding, friendly, clean and tidy pillars of society and most importantly for Whitby and all other destinations we do spend. Problem is, we are all under the radar, (some of us intentionally more than others I accept). Go into a shop, pub, restaurant what does the trader see, just a non local, ie tourist, 5 star hotel, b&b, day tripper, who knows? Possibly not a motorhomer because they don’t spend do they? At least that’s what we are told trader and council perception of us is. So here is my idea, many of us are happy to display a wildcamping / motorhomer sticker on our vans. What are the views regarding something similar when we are out and about bolstering the local economy? I’m thinking something like the little sticker you get when you donate to a charity flag day. Peel off identification backing on the Whitby Aire parking ticket? Or something generic like, motorhomer here to support your local economy. Then the business people could identify us as the free spending community that we are (tongue firmly in cheek here). So when councils are considering the value of welcoming us local traders can say “yes we do get motorhomer customers” (get us some more hopefully), rather than “no idea”.
> 
> My question  is,
> ...


I would if it was like a "CARE" or "NHS" brooch, or that American thing about a stars and stripes badge.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 19, 2020)

Barge 1914.    My own effort only said I supported the initiative   About three lines. Your analysis is brilliant – reading it I'm reminded of the very few surveys of motorhomers I've seen.   I loved the bit where you said we would have foreign holidaymakers going to Scotland if only they didn't have to travel through England first and throughout your document I like the humour and common sense.

Cllr Bastiman will be a busy man;  if you can engage his interest at the start then he will likely pay attention all the way through.

I think your email could form the basis of an excellent document to be produced – pdf format – for forwarding to any council which presently bans motorhomes.   Or even as a pdf pamphlet/booklet incorporating photographs.

I'd consider sending it to any Scarborough councillors you can identify who might be involved in decision making.  Some at least will read it all the way through.

If you would like more information about council claims of residents' complaints and the the lack of council records – the NY Enquirer produced a full documentation of that particular incident.  http://nyenquirer.uk/motorhome-madness/

The NY Enquirer is a Whitby based online newspaper but articles cover all North Yorkshire and beyond   The actual complaints are printed there in full together with an analysis of the events.

This WC thread documents how the latest stringent prohibitions, two years ago,  were introduced. https://wildcamping.co.uk/threads/whitby-parking-latest-update.73016/

I love it.  Thank you.

Tom


----------



## runnach (Jun 19, 2020)

Tom perhaps you  remember ? Albeit it never happened a few years ago in Scarborough itself there was a proposal in which the council engaged for a overnight parking arrangement in Seame. The reservation amongst campers as I recall was the proximity to attractions and facilities was too far and a genuine fear it gave the opportunity to ban motorhomes in parts of the town , as it transpired that has happened notably the harbour area and marine drive. Only sea life centre near scalby has remained constant the management enjoying the fact vans present in an evening and a deterrent to wrongdoers

Hence Scarborough Mbc are more aware of campers than perhaps we are crediting these observations don’t really apply in Whitby as sanctions already exist eg west cliff sea front towards Sandsend.

One other thought as a follow up to Fazerloz photo is that if vans are dispersed between overnight locations it dissolves visual presence which pacified also gives visitors more choice.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 19, 2020)

channa said:


> Tom perhaps you  remember ? Albeit it never happened a few years ago in Scarborough itself there was a proposal in which the council engaged for a overnight parking arrangement in Seame. The reservation amongst campers as I recall was the proximity to attractions and facilities was too far and a genuine fear it gave the opportunity to ban motorhomes in parts of the town , as it transpired that has happened notably the harbour area and marine drive. Only sea life centre near scalby has remained constant the management enjoying the fact vans present in an evening and a deterrent to wrongdoers
> 
> Hence Scarborough Mbc are more aware of campers than perhaps we are crediting these observations don’t really apply in Whitby as sanctions already exist eg west cliff sea front towards Sandsend.
> 
> One other thought as a follow up to Fazerloz photo is that if vans are dispersed between overnight locations it dissolves visual presence which pacified also gives visitors more choice.



Yes, I think I do.  This formed part of a bigger plan, yes?   I think the full council approved a total of five car parks in the Scarborough jurisddiction.    It turned out that the cabinet holder, Cllr Penny Marsden (Ramsden?) refused to sign the authorisation because she believed it would be against planning policy.     I think I remember that a substanitial number of motorhomers said they would refuse to pay the proposed £10 parking fee - which I think was maybe for overnight only and there might have been an additional charge for daytime use.  Could possibly have approached a campsite fee.

Haven't we had fun with Scarborough over the years?  I think that one was 2012 - where have the years gone?


----------



## runnach (Jun 19, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, I think I do.  This formed part of a bigger plan, yes?   I think the full council approved a total of five car parks in the Scarborough jurisddiction.    It turned out that the cabinet holder, Cllr Penny Marsden (Ramsden?) refused to sign the authorisation because she believed it would be against planning policy.     I think I remember that a substanitial number of motorhomers said they would refuse to pay the proposed £10 parking fee - which I think was maybe for overnight only and there might have been an additional charge for daytime use.  Could possibly have approached a campsite fee.
> 
> Haven't we had fun with Scarborough over the years?  I think that one was 2012 - where have the years gone?


My memory is failing too I only remember seamer being proposed. It would be interesting this time of year as it is a destination (traditionally) for the travelling brethren after Appleby.

Who needs East Enders when we have good old Scarborough?


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 19, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Barge 1914.    My own effort only said I supported the initiative   About three lines. Your analysis is brilliant – reading it I'm reminded of the very few surveys of motorhomers I've seen.   I loved the bit where you said we would have foreign holidaymakers going to Scotland if only they didn't have to travel through England first and throughout your document I like the humour and common sense.
> 
> Cllr Bastiman will be a busy man;  if you can engage his interest at the start then he will likely pay attention all the way through.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom for reminding me, I thought I had read those references before but couldn’t remember where.
Yes I hoped this might represent a start on a document that could be reused and developed for other locations and purposes, a work in progress I hope. I was hoping for some collaboration on this, but as you know getting motorhomers to work together on such things in the absence of any umbrella organisation is like herding cats and has defeated more dedicated souls than me!
Ian


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 19, 2020)

To which I should add...comments, edits, more facts etc would be much appreciated


----------



## Val54 (Jun 19, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> To which I should add...comments, edits, more facts etc would be much appreciated


I think it is a sensible, thought provoking explanation of the position the majority of motorhomers find themselves in. Personally I think you have covered all the main points and wouldn’t want to offer any edits. The only danger is that if the text becomes too long, then it might lose its impact. As an afterthought, it might be useful to add a rider at the end to say we “this forum” etc would be happy to answer any questions/engage with developing ideas for parking provision, if you get my drift ........... Thank you for taking the time to put it together.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 19, 2020)

Val54 said:


> I think it is a sensible, thought provoking explanation of the position the majority of motorhomers find themselves in. Personally I think you have covered all the main points and wouldn’t want to offer any edits. The only danger is that if the text becomes too long, then it might lose its impact. As an afterthought, it might be useful to add a rider at the end to say we “this forum” etc would be happy to answer any questions/engage with developing ideas for parking provision, if you get my drift ........... Thank you for taking the time to put it together.


Thanks, your suggestion is good, but I deliberately refrained from naming the forum, as I do not feel entitled without endorsement to speak on behalf of the forum. Also, much as we cherish it I am not sure whether the name WILDcamping will strike up empathy with a Conservative Councillor...Motorhomer.com perhaps?


----------



## RichardHelen262 (Jun 19, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Thanks, your suggestion is good, but I deliberately refrained from naming the forum, as I do not feel entitled without endorsement to speak on behalf of the forum. Also, much as we cherish it I am not sure whether the name WILDcamping will strike up empathy with a Conservative Councillor...Motorhomer.com perhaps?


I agree with not using the wild camping, but what about the sister site motorhomer ?
Obviously with admin permission


----------



## mickymost (Jun 19, 2020)

barge1914

 well what can I say your letter above is well put together, covers all relevant points and as MaureenandTom suggested this letter of yours could be sent to every relevant Council in the Country.Now we have come through this Pandemic relating to COVID19 I feel things have to and will change.Many people are now buying Campervans and Motorhomes due to wanting self contained safe accommodation for their families.Not all have wads of cash to spend at £40 a night in a campsite.So the councils need to change their attitude and ways and need to welcome Motorhomers with open arms as Local Businesses will need the income.

So dont edit your letter too much and lets consider on this forum and get opinion if this could work all over the UK.Will councils get their heads out of the sand and get real and realise their areas need to tap into the money spending habits of new Campervan/Motorhomers and retired people who have plenty of time all year on their hands to spend spend spend and help All towns and tourists spots recover from  losses due to CoronaVirus


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 20, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> To which I should add...comments, edits, more facts etc would be much appreciated



I wouldn't like to burden you with too much information.   This is not the first time Scarborough council has actually approved a number of car parks for overngiht parking.   https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/aires-to-grace-council-car-parks  gives a little information but it was a long process getting there and I'm not sure I stil lhave all the correspondence leading up to it..    Andrew Backhouse was the cabinet holder at SBC and we all thought it had been a done deal.   Andrew declared an interest that he was manager of a caravan site at Burniston (?) and it seemed to me that he'd changed his mind because the initial proposals for banning motor homes had come from him but it turned out this had come in his other capacity as a councillor for N Yorks.   That's possibly not as two faced as it sounds.   N Yorks are responsble for on-street parking and at Scarborough his cabinet holding responsibilities were for off=street parking.   So it's quite possible that he approved proposals for off-street parking while condemning on-street parking.   Probably quite a reasonable position.  But it didn't stop me disliking him.

It all came to nought because Andrew gave up his cabinet position and the incoming cabinet holder - Cllr Penny Marsden - disagreed making the excuse that _probably_ the approval would fly in the face of planning policy.   This was reported inthe local press but it was eight years ago and I've not been able to find the press reports - coming up as "page deleted".     So, though approved by full council, it seems the Cabinet Holder has the power to regard the council decision not as a decision but as a recommendation.  Which she chose not to accept.

If you have questions it's possible I have the answers but I'd not wish to give you stuff at random that's just a confusion.  Best of luck.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 20, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> I wouldn't like to burden you with too much information.   This is not the first time Scarborough council has actually approved a number of car parks for overngiht parking.   https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/news/aires-to-grace-council-car-parks  gives a little information but it was a long process getting there and I'm not sure I stil lhave all the correspondence leading up to it..    Andrew Backhouse was the cabinet holder at SBC and we all thought it had been a done deal.   Andrew declared an interest that he was manager of a caravan site at Burniston (?) and it seemed to me that he'd changed his mind because the initial proposals for banning motor homes had come from him but it turned out this had come in his other capacity as a councillor for N Yorks.   That's possibly not as two faced as it sounds.   N Yorks are responsble for on-street parking and at Scarborough his cabinet holding responsibilities were for off=street parking.   So it's quite possible that he approved proposals for off-street parking while condemning on-street parking.   Probably quite a reasonable position.  But it didn't stop me disliking him.
> 
> It all came to nought because Andrew gave up his cabinet position and the incoming cabinet holder - Cllr Penny Marsden - disagreed making the excuse that _probably_ the approval would fly in the face of planning policy.   This was reported inthe local press but it was eight years ago and I've not been able to find the press reports - coming up as "page deleted".     So, though approved by full council, it seems the Cabinet Holder has the power to regard the council decision not as a decision but as a recommendation.  Which she chose not to accept.
> 
> If you have questions it's possible I have the answers but I'd not wish to give you stuff at random that's just a confusion.  Best of luck.


Harking back to your previous mail, as you seem to have more local knowledge than I, do you know the names of any other councillors I could usefully copy this to?


----------



## molly 2 (Jun 20, 2020)

When tourism gets back to normal we would be the first to be banned again ? As a small Town it has too many visitor's.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 20, 2020)

As far as I can see Alf Abbott, Cons. West Cliff, Stewart Campbell, Cons.  Streonshalh, and David Chance, Cons. Mayfield, are those most geographically connected with Whitby, but whether they would be supportive I don’t know. And whether others would have a special interest in the subject I can’t establish without local knowledge.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 20, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> As far as I can see Alf Abbott, Cons. West Cliff, Stewart Campbell, Cons.  Streonshalh, and David Chance, Cons. Mayfield, are those most geographically connected with Whitby, but whether they would be supportive I don’t know. And whether others would have a special interest in the subject I can’t establish without local knowledge.


Ah, you beat me to it.    Here's the response I'd already typed up.   You've already done much of it.

It's a huge task emailing all the councillors you could usefully email.  The group being encouraged to make the proposal are the Conservative Group on Scarborough Borough Council.  They are here listed by group; https://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=PARTY&VW=LIST&PIC=0

I know none of them personally though I did have some little email dealings with Andrew Backhouse – who now seems to be independent.  From memory I'd have said he was conservative.   Eight years ago he was quoted as being in favour of providing permitted places on car parks when he was the Cabinet Holder.    I understand he no longer owns a caravan site and I might include him – and he might encourage the other independents.

The fairly obvious candidates are the representatives for the Whitby wards.  These are Mayfield (perhaps), Whitby and Westcliff, and Streonshalh.  I didn't know the consituencies, I had to look at the map.







Here is the listing by ward.  https://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=WARD&VW=LIST&PIC=0

If I were to choose then I'd go for Cllr Bastiman who seems to be in charge of the whole thing and ALL the Members for the local constituencies not jsut those probably in favour of the project because of belonging to once political group.  Then I'd maybe trawl through the home addresses of the whole 46 looking for those with Whitby addresses.  There are at least two names missing from the list I was used to years ago.

Lot of work – but very satisfying.  Oh, and although all the emails would be identiical I'd name each one individually.   It's my limited experincethat multiple mail shots are identified sometimes by email programmes as junk and only get seen if the recipient happens to check his junk box.

If you choose more than just Cllr Bastiman then I'd love to know what responses you get.

EDITED to add ALL Whitby councillors.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 20, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Ah, you beat me to it.    Here's the response I'd already typed up.   You've already done much of it.
> 
> It's a huge task emailing all the councillors you could usefully email.  The group being encouraged to make the proposal are the Conservative Group on Scarborough Borough Council.  They are here listed by group; https://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/mgMemberIndex.aspx?FN=PARTY&VW=LIST&PIC=0
> 
> ...




Ok, job done. I have sent emails to Councillor Bastiman, the three Whitby Councillors and Councillor Backhouse. I'm not sure how the latter will receive this as he is still declaring an interest in a local campsite. I'll let you all know if I get any replies.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 20, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Ok, job done. I have sent emails to Councillor Bastiman, the three Whitby Councillors and Councillor Backhouse. I'm not sure how the latter will receive this as he is still declaring an interest in a local campsite. I'll let you all know if I get any replies.




Be interesting to see how they reply especially after the lockdown over #covid19. Will they be for bringing much needed income in to the town from us OR will they still be pushing the Motorhoming community away to other areas who appreciate our input and spend.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 20, 2020)

There are another three representing Whitby.   Sue Tucker (alongside Alf Abbott), Michael Stonehouse (alongside Stewarrt Campbell), and Glen Goodberry (wirh David Chance).    The one name missing is Joe Plant who now sits only on N Yorks County Council.    I thought he lived in Whitby and was one of our worst opponents. Joe was devious.  When devising the TRO for Whitby he sent an email to a N Yorks senior manager  asking to find ways of avoiding going through the TRO mandatory procedure  - the email dropped in to me, probably by accident, with the answer to an FoI query.    I've no idea why he's no longer a councillor for SBC but I'm sure he's still influential.  An email to him might bring useful information or he might just ignore you.   Here's his personal page http://joeplant.yourcllr.com/





I'm not sure how far you wish to take this but there might be a facebook page where, eventually, local residents' comments might be published. https://www.facebook.com/groups/realwhitby/ I'm not a memher so I know little of it other than the address.  And of course, there is Whitby Town Council itself.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 20, 2020)

Yes I wondered about the Town council, I was reluctant to press their buttons without some intel on their opinions.


----------



## Val54 (Jun 20, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Yes I wondered about the Town council, I was reluctant to press their buttons without some intel on their opinions.



I‘ve had a quick look through the Town Council minutes and not surprisingly there is no mention of this issue. The last full Town Council meeting appears to be 30 March and I suspect at the moment normal co7ncil business is being conducted through web meetings as required. Unless anyone has a local contact the only source will be local press.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 21, 2020)

Since the NY Enquirer has shown interest in the subject perhaps I could send a version to them.


----------



## Biggarmac (Jun 21, 2020)

There is a facebook group called "Campaign for Real Aires CAMpRA".  Barge1914 would you mind if I copied your letter to that forum?


----------



## Rob H (Jun 21, 2020)

channa said:


> As s former ratepayer to Scarborough council, I have been critical in the past of their antics and “tourist prevention officers” attitude towards visitors .
> 
> What is often overlooked in the case of Whitby (and Filey) is the residents themselves are oppressed by SBC . give or take Whitby to Scarborough is just shy of 20 miles. the decision making processes equally 20 miles away and the locals with justification feel the poor relatives investment and policy concentrates around the town of Scarborough itself no where else matters
> 
> ...


Whitby won't be seeing me. After the 'good times' rejection I've found new camper friendly destinations.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 21, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> There is a facebook group called "Campaign for Real Aires CAMpRA".  Barge1914 would you mind if I copied your letter to that forum?


Gladly!!!


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 21, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> There is a facebook group called "Campaign for Real Aires CAMpRA".  Barge1914 would you mind if I copied your letter to that forum?


Hi. In fact the more people who copy it and put it to good use the better. It would be particularly good if people who live in areas where such issues exist copy adapt and send it to their own councillors. A letter from a ratepayer counts more brownie points than one who is ‘out of the Parish’.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 21, 2020)

Ok I have added Councillors Goodberry, Tucker and Campbell to the recipients. Also the North Yorkshire Enquirer have come back to me and want to publish the text in their next issue.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 21, 2020)

It's our duty to help these people:


Yorkshire Oneupmanship?  I'd have put this in fun and games but I think they are serioius.

Naz Shah, MP for Bradford:.   o_nly this afternoon I rang my sister to ask her, do you remember when we used to go to Scarborough because mum used to send us there for summer holidays? That is what poverty is. _

Rtbert Goodwill, MP for Scarborough:   _Many of my friends never went on holiday._

Judy Cossins:  _I grew up in Scarborough  ….  couldn't afford to go anywhere other than a day trip to Whitby._









						Yorkshire MP under fire after saying holidays in Scarborough are 'what poverty is'
					

A Yorkshire MP has come under fire after saying holidays in Scarborough are 'what poverty is' after being sent there by social services as a child.




					www.yorkshirepost.co.uk


----------



## runnach (Jun 21, 2020)

Gavin Williamson and they promote Scarborough he was born and educated In the time the irony of course is as an MP represents the constituency miles away in the Midlands


----------



## lefty107 (Jun 21, 2020)

Good on Whitby not a good experiance in February when I was parked in the large overflow carpark. Me and one other car and a warden walked all the way over the carpark to tell me my wheels were slightly over the lines and if i didn't put them in I would have to buy 2 tickets and also to make sure I wasent staying overnight. Had a better welcome in windimere marina. Apart from that shouldent we be e-mailing our councllers to encourage /put a few places in there park and rides. Would pay a nominal fee if required. As we won't be in france this year will still have money to spend. Come on then councillors who wants my money


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 22, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Ok I have added Councillors Goodberry, Tucker and Campbell to the recipients. Also the North Yorkshire Enquirer have come back to me and want to publish the text in their next issue.



.... and has been published this morning.



			North Yorks Enquirer   |  “A Breath of Fresh AIRE”


----------



## mickymost (Jun 22, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> .... and has been published this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> North Yorks Enquirer   |  “A Breath of Fresh AIRE”




Brilliant article so what happens now?Are we awaiting the Councils response I presume.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 22, 2020)

Here is the link to the letter on the North Yorkshire Enquirer. (Ignore the name...they’ve done a Guardian on the spelling for my security). We’ll have to wait and see where it goes. 
Can I ask you to copy the link to any other forums or elsewhere you think it may be of interest or possibly do some good.




__





						North Yorks Enquirer   |  “A Breath of Fresh AIRE”
					





					tinyurl.com


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 22, 2020)

Oh, I’ve been pulled at the post!


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 22, 2020)

Pipped! B****y spellcheckers!


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 22, 2020)

Also forwarded to Whitby Gazzette and Welcome to Yorkshire. The latter are pursuing an initiative to revive Yorkshires struggling tourist industry at the moment, I have suggested they may give some joined up consideration to motorhome parking.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 22, 2020)

lefty107 said:


> Good on Whitby not a good experiance in February when I was parked in the large overflow carpark. Me and one other car and a warden walked all the way over the carpark to tell me my wheels were slightly over the lines and if i didn't put them in I would have to buy 2 tickets and also to make sure I wasent staying overnight. Had a better welcome in windimere marina. Apart from that shouldent we be e-mailing our councllers to encourage /put a few places in there park and rides. Would pay a nominal fee if required. As we won't be in france this year will still have money to spend. Come on then councillors who wants my money



At least he had the decency to go to the trouble of telling you. He didn't have to, he could have just given you the ticket.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 22, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> .... and has been published this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> North Yorks Enquirer   |  “A Breath of Fresh AIRE”



A pity about the heading photo as a representation of a modern motor home that is supposed to be fully self contained.  Yes I know a few are are but far more are not.


----------



## Deleted member 34243 (Jun 22, 2020)

lefty107 said:


> Good on Whitby not a good experiance in February when I was parked in the large overflow carpark. Me and one other car and a warden walked all the way over the carpark to tell me my wheels were slightly over the lines and if i didn't put them in I would have to buy 2 tickets and also to make sure I wasent staying overnight. Had a better welcome in windimere marina. Apart from that shouldent we be e-mailing our councllers to encourage /put a few places in there park and rides. Would pay a nominal fee if required. As we won't be in france this year will still have money to spend. Come on then councillors who wants my money


And your point?


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 22, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> A pity about the heading photo as a representation of a modern motor home that is supposed to be fully self contained.  Yes I know a few are are but far more are not.


A very good point, I’ve passed it on.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> A pity about the heading photo as a representation of a modern motor home that is supposed to be fully self contained.  Yes I know a few are are but far more are not.



I'm ashamed and embarrassed.   I can not approve your sense of superiority.  First over those who choose to park legally (at the time) and now to those who either choose not, or can not afford, the luxury of larger, more expensive, vans.    And, obliquely, you criticise a locally produced newspaper which it seems to me has always been on the side of motorhomers - and its own home town's economy, of course..   I think the photograph is rather  lovely.  Who chose it?    Barge?   Or the newspaper?  Either way, it's lovely.

Are you suggesting that, if this proosal comes off, then we should ask the council to only admit those meeting a certain standard?  I do see the logic and it's a logic applied elsewhere.  But I don't  like it.   The council might as well choose only smaller vans;   some already do - with height barriers.

All motorhomers good - some better than others?   That attitude always leaves me feeling some will have me on the wrong side of the line.

*EDIT to add*:   and it's an invisible line.    I'll not know what and where it is.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 23, 2020)

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE.

Both car parks are full of vehicles.
One full of cars a regular sight throughout the uk, and no doubt the surrounding streets and lanes are also full of cars. Yet hardly an eyebrow is raised.
These car owners have no toilets, and require toilet facilities to be provided for them.


The second is full of Motorhomes and cars, the motorhome  owners pay road tax, fuel duty, insurance the same as the cars in the carpark. They don’t require anything other than a space to park up, having their own facilities. Yet many eyebrows are raised.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 23, 2020)

If we perceive ourselves as being a problem, just think what those outside our community will be thinking. What’s the difference between a car and a Motorhome. Well apart from size there is no difference, other than we are mainly self sufficient and cars are not. Ok we spend a night in an otherwise empty carpark. Is that really such an issue. We make up less than 1% of all vehicles on the road, and our mileage is only half that of a car. Yet reading articles and watching tv programmes you would think that we are more like 20%.
It’s a fact that even if every Motorhome in this country ventured out at the one time and they all wild camped (which they don’t) we could never create parking issues. The problem is cars are ignored, car parks full of cars is the accepted norm, yet if a few motorhomes are seen they are a problem. The problem is not the Motorhomes or their owners, the problem is that even though we pay the same road tax, fuel duty, vat, and insurance, we are not treated the same. And so long as we justify such disparity ourselves, it will continue.

As a nation we cannot continue to benefit from the manufacturing, selling, and the tax return we get from Motorhomes, then refuse to do anything for them apart from telling them they cannot be treated the same as other vehicles. Barriers, signage, and narrow minded nimbys are not the solution. Forcing motorhomes into what little parking space is still available to them as was done in Whitby, only creates the very issues that these measures seek to solve.


----------



## Deleted member 34243 (Jun 23, 2020)

I do have a camper van. A minor issue in the scheme of things but here goes.
i parked my car in that car park early one morning, came back and found it rammed with motor homes. OK I thought until I found that one very large motor home had managed to squeeze into a non space and completely blocked anyone from exiting.  Eventually the  police had to be called and they managed to track down the driver. Took nearly an hour to free the car park.
Did the affected drivers blame the owner. Nope ’all these bloody motorhomes should be banned’


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> I'm ashamed and embarrassed.   I can not approve your sense of superiority.  First over those who choose to park legally (at the time) and now to those who either choose, or can not afford, the luxury of larger, more expensive, vans.    And, obliquely, you criticise a locally produced newspaper which it seems to me has always been on the side of motorhomers - and its own home town's economy, of course..   I think the photograph is rather  lovely.  Who chose it?    Barge?   Or the newspaper?  Either way, it's lovely.
> 
> Are you suggesting that, if this proosal comes off, then we should ask the council to only admit those meeting a certain standard?  I do see the logic and it's a logic applied elsewhere.  But I don't  like it.   The council might as well choose only smaller vans;   some already do - with height barriers.
> 
> All motorhomers good - some better than others?   That attitude always leaves me feeling some will have me on the wrong side of the line.



To a degree you have a fair point. No problem with small campers, provided toilets are available AND they use them. Car owners generally only occupy car parks for a short period, they can use toilets elsewhere if there aren’t any adjacent... although the evidence to the contrary is littered about the bushes around many carparks. The occupants staying overnight in a CP unless they have abnormally retentive bladder and bowels have in such places nowhere but the bushes, unless they have a portapotty which evidently many don’t. Certainly I have myself seen people getting out of small campers clutching toilet rolls heading off into the bushes.
It got so bad in NZ that they brought in regulations banning non self constrained campers from free camps and in serviced sites. Now everyone there has to have a certificate testifying they have on-board waste storage.
In Germany I once saw a woman get out of the camper into the half meter space next to us, drop her knickers, squat and do the business...just to save walking to the pristine loos in the swimming pool 200 meters away, and this in the middle of a town park.
I won’t say people in big vans are without transgressions but they simply don’t need to act in this way. It’s a matter of practicality, not status, wealth, size or snobbery...inverted or otherwise.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

Phase3.    Yes.   I'm sure somethign similar has happened to most of us.   Disabled spaces used by able-bodied, mother and child spaces used by those who believe mothers with children shouldn't have preferential treatment.

The point is valid that we all get blamed for problems created by the few.  One council, Rother, placed on record a complaint justifying banning motorhomes (one of three complaints in three years, from memory) that a motrohome had been abandoned.  Rother council didn't respond to my comment that by this logic they would ban motor cars if a Ford Escort had been abandoned.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 23, 2020)

phase3begins said:


> I do have a camper van. A minor issue in the scheme of things but here goes.
> i parked my car in that car park early one morning, came back and found it rammed with motor homes. OK I thought until I found that one very large motor home had managed to squeeze into a non space and completely blocked anyone from exiting.  Eventually the  police had to be called and they managed to track down the driver. Took nearly an hour to free the car park.
> Did the affected drivers blame the owner. Nope ’all these bloody motorhomes should be banned’



We were Jammed in by two cars in a forestry carpark in Stromeferry last summer.
There was no such cry to ban cars from this carpark.
We woke up that morning to find the exit blocked and the occupants were out hillwalking.
Luckily we had no intention of leaving, but a French couple had to wait till they returned later that say.
There are inconsiderate road users in all types of vehicles.


----------



## Deleted member 34243 (Jun 23, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> We were Jammed in by two cars in a forestry carpark in Stromeferry last summer.
> There was no such cry to ban cars from this carpark.
> We woke up that morning to find the exit blocked and the occupants were out hillwalking.
> Luckily we had no intention of leaving, but a French couple had to wait till they returned later that say.
> There are inconsiderate road users in all types of vehicles.


that is my point. I am merely trying to point the inequality of perception.  Because there were loads of mh’s they got the blame.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 23, 2020)

AAArgh. STOP!!!!
By rising to the bait I am at risk of the very thing I wanted to avoid this thread doing, as so many, deteriorating into the usual pointless war of words where motorhomers devote their energies into splitting hairs, knocking verbal or literary spots off each other and end up achieving bugger all of use to anybody, and ending up more divided than ever.
If even one person writes or types another letter to their council, tourist authority or even to god then perhaps we have done something constructive and I wont feel like I'm p*****g in the wind!


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

I shouldn't have commented.   We have here a possibility of a council. previusly banning us, providing overnight places.   I'd like to see us united ad my comments might have started arguments.

I can see nothing but advantages.  At the very least, I hope, there will be a public airing (sorry!) at a council meeting where I hope that even if the proposal is defeated we will see what councillors are prepared to say to justify themselves - under public scrutiny.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 23, 2020)

Well it is starting to get some response. One councillor thanking us for the info, another asking permission to circulate the email to all the others.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Well it is starting to get some response. One councillor thanking us for the info, another asking permission to circulate the email to all the others.



Excellent.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 23, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> AAArgh. STOP!!!!
> By rising to the bait I am at risk of the very thing I wanted to avoid this thread doing, as so many, deteriorating into the usual pointless war of words where motorhomers devote their energies into splitting hairs, knocking verbal or literary spots off each other and end up achieving bugger all of use to anybody, and ending up more divided than ever.
> If even one person writes or types another letter to their council, tourist authority or even to god then perhaps we have done something constructive and I wont feel like I'm p*****g in the wind!



Sorry Barge but the biggest problem we have *is* ourselves.
Many having swallowed the we are a problem mantra,
and the we have to be dealt with mantra.
When will we ourselves realise that we are not a problem to be dealt with.
We don't want to be pampered, or given favourable treatment,
or have gazillions spent on us.
All we want is to be treated fairly, and equitably.
Sorry but until we stop shooting ourselves in the foot,
we are in the words of private Fraser "DOOMED"

If you can't rely on the support of the very people you are trying to help.....well.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> I'm ashamed and embarrassed.   I can not approve your sense of superiority.  First over those who choose to park legally (at the time) and now to those who either choose not, or can not afford, the luxury of larger, more expensive, vans.    And, obliquely, you criticise a locally produced newspaper which it seems to me has always been on the side of motorhomers - and its own home town's economy, of course..   I think the photograph is rather  lovely.  Who chose it?    Barge?   Or the newspaper?  Either way, it's lovely.
> 
> Are you suggesting that, if this proosal comes off, then we should ask the council to only admit those meeting a certain standard?  I do see the logic and it's a logic applied elsewhere.  But I don't  like it.   The council might as well choose only smaller vans;   some already do - with height barriers.
> 
> ...



ALL that from this. 
"A pity about the heading photo as a representation of a modern motor home that is supposed to be fully self contained. Yes I know a few are are but far more are not."
 Please do not read  things into my posts things that are not there
You have chosen to take my post  out of context unfortunately.  The only reason for the post was the fact Barge mentioned in his letter.
"The modern motorhome offers a self contained environment complete with on-board water, sanitation, and waste storage, and even solar power."
A VW bus is neither of these generally speaking.
Having worked many  bug fests and bus stopovers i also know the facilities  many have onboard and that many have a value way above the value my own van. So have no sense of superiority whatsoever over anyone.
There was no criticism of the newspaper intended.
Yes the picture is a lovely pic. The romantic view of campervaning. But to me not the picture painted by Barges letter.
I am making no suggestions at all other than it was what i thought a poor choice of pic.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 23, 2020)

phase3begins said:


> that is my point. I am merely trying to point the inequality of perception.  Because there were loads of mh’s they got the blame.



And sadly the council would get plenty of support from our own community.
The day I see a car park banning cars for their indiscretions and welcoming Motorhomes, I may change my tune. I know I am having a laugh also.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 23, 2020)

And so it continues.

Can I make a suggestion, if not labouring the point, which it seems I must.

We clearly have a lot of energetic and lucid keyboard warriors. How about expending some of the time and energy we all clearly seem to have at the moment in a more focussed way. My one lonely voice can only have a limited impact. A flood of emails of support coming from all over the country, and we are all over the country, would have more effect.

As for Whitby, indeed Scarborough too, you have all have your own points to make and are quite capable of using your own words. It would be better you do so individually as then it looks less orchestrated and less likely to be ignored than a duplicated email. To make it easy I have included below email addresses of all the SBC councillors representing Whitby, and those I believe have a particular interest in the subject. It is better to address separately as CCs may end up in junk mail.

Cllr.Stewart.Campbell@scarborough.gov.uk
Cllr.Sue.Tucker@scarborough.gov.uk
cllr.andrew.backhouse@scarborough.gov.uk
Cllr.Michael.Stonehouse@scarborough.gov.uk
Cllr.Alf.Abbott@scarborough.gov.uk
Cllr.David.Chance@scarborough.gov.uk
cllr.derek.bastiman@scarborough.gov.uk

Also Yorkshire Coast Radio
info@yorkshirecoastradio.com

Welcome to Yorkshire
info@yorkshire.com

And Nigel Ward at the NY Enquirer
symphonetix@tiscali.co.uk

And the Whitby Gazette
editorial@whitbygazette.co.uk


As of now I have received replies from Glenn Goodberry and Stewart Campbell both of whom seem to think it makes some good points and will discuss it with other council members.

In further correspondence with Glenn Goodberry I have also made these further points

<< If I may make a small observation. The Abbey car parking area is indeed a good and opportune location for most motorhomes, but I would observe that I am aware of a lot of elderly and other motorhomers with significant disabilities, and at least one with a severely disabled son who would struggle getting down to the town. I wonder about the possibility of one or two allocated spaces within town for disabled motorhome users.

I am of course aware of the local visual impact a large congregation of motorhomes has when located close into urban areas. Quite a number of towns have mitigated this by spreading the numbers by allocating a small number of motorhome spaces in each of a number of (usually peripheral) carparks and park and rides, along with signage giving directions to one strategically located service point. This may not be directly relevant to your current project, but perhaps a thought for the future. >>



It would be good also if a few folks adapted my mail to send to those in places they know about and I have not written to. Rother someone has mentioned recently. All those Scottish Boroughs that have attracted a flood of motorhomes without thinking to provide facilities, Fyfe who can be congratulated for making a start on joined up thinking, and also possibly Fylde. You all know your own patch better than I do. And I’m sure many more that you all have come across and discussed at some length on this forum.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

Rother.   There is presently correspondence - I know little of it, I'm not involved - with Rother about the legality of its PSPO.   I think Liberty and Manifesto Club know of it but I don't know what stage they are all at.

When the PSPO was proposed I prepared a little paper.   It's maybe a bit naive but here it is - if it gives anyone ideas?     I did quite a few of these comparisons and they did sometimes have an effect.   This one produced a few replies from Councillors - but the PSPO was stil introduced.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Rother.   There is presently correspondence - I know little of it, I'm not involved - with Rother about the legality of its PSPO.   I think Liberty and Manifesto Club know of it but I don't know what stage they are all at.
> 
> When the PSPO was proposed I prepared a little paper.   It's maybe a bit naive but here it is - if it gives anyone ideas?     I did quite a few of these comparisons and they did sometimes have an effect.   This one produced a few replies from Councillors - but the PSPO was stil introduced.


A good paper, makes some good points, a pity it didn’t get anywhere. As a matter of interest have you any idea how many letters from other  motorhomers were sent to the council opposing the PSPO proposals. And how many Sussex motorhomers contacted their MPs about this abuse of procedure? Or did we all simply grumble fruitlessly into our beards instead? From a previous post it seems apparent that some Scarborough councillors have in the past tried to circumvent the TRO procedure which exposes them to more scrutiny.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

Thank you.  Kind of you.    The best respones I got was this:






I had a few acknowledgements but I don't know whether it was discussed or even "looked into".   When the PSPO was approved I let it drop.  I know several other motorhomers also contacted the council and I know one had a meeting wiht a councillor.  It was discussed at some length on one of the other motorhome forums. facts, I think but may have been fun.  I will see if I can find that thread and post you a link.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 23, 2020)

Would a paper like this be useful?   Or maybe a hindrance?   To the same distribution as Barge's much more erudite document?


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 24, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Would a paper like this be useful?   Or maybe a hindrance?   To the same distribution as Barge's much more erudite document?


Excellent paper, I can’t see why you worry it wouldn’t be helpful. Just a small point though, it might be worth getting some feedback on Helmsley to be sure it is a success. 

You may also mention that in France there are also organisations such as France Passion which promote and advertise a lot more private aires, not included in your figures, in farms, attractions, vineyards, and more. Also that additionally many hotels throughout Europe use part of their car parking for motorhomes to stay overnight, a thought for hotels struggling to attract guests at the moment so long as they have parking spaces and local authorities don’t throw obstacles in their path.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 25, 2020)

Thank you.   Do you think it's right to talk about Britstops, for example?    Perhaps not confuse them with alternatives?   I've amended the paper to take account of your comments.   Getting to look like something useful?


----------



## runnach (Jun 25, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Thank you.   Do you think it's right to talk about Britstops, for example?    Perhaps not confuse them with alternatives?   I've amended the paper to take account of your comments.   Getting to look like something useful?


I am deliberately not commenting too much on this thread, it would only be a matter of time before upsetting someone.

I have mentioned in the past britstops is a flawed model when it comes to councils who licence the pubs,,,it can be easily construed the hostelries are in breach of their licences.so a subject better avoided.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 25, 2020)

channa said:


> I am deliberately not commenting too much on this thread, it would only be a matter of time before upsetting someone.
> 
> I have mentioned in the past britstops is a flawed model when it comes to councils who licence the pubs,,,it can be easily construed the hostelries are in breach of their licences.so a subject better avoided.




As a Personal Alcohol licence holder myself Im Just curious how a Motorhome or Campervan stopping over in the car park of a Public House is in your eyes breaching their Alcohol licence,or premises Licence (issued by the Council)They could get in bother due to not having a camping site Licence yes but Alcohol and Motorhomes are two completely different things and come under two completely different Licences.


----------



## runnach (Jun 25, 2020)

mickymost said:


> As a Personal Alcohol licence holder myself Im Just curious how a Motorhome or Campervan stopping over in the car park of a Public House is in your eyes breaching their Alcohol licence,or premises Licence (issued by the Council)They could get in bother due to not having a camping site Licence yes but Alcohol and Motorhomes are two completely different things and come under two completely different Licences.


Preventing public nuisance motor caravans moving about especially early leavers,outside licensing hours.prevention of crime and disorders groups getting rowdy if consuming their own booze dps is not excercising any control on a licensed premises,


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 25, 2020)

Looks good. I was reluctant to mention Britstops for the reasons Channa identifies lest this backfire on pubs in the area signed up to Britstops. 

However for an example of a successful UK hotel Aire we have the Royal Hotel in Ullapool ( Scotland of course!) where spaces are allocated to motorhomes in their carpark; an existing outside tap provides water, and the addition of a hinged lid to an existing manhole gives a waste disposal point. More custom for their restaurant and bar at absolutely minimal investment cost.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 25, 2020)

Ah right, I understand now.   I think that would be best kept away from this question but no objection to anyone else doing that.   I think then that my amended little paper will go in just as it is.   Any other comments welcome.   Well, not only welcome - maybe needed:  I researched and wrote it in not much more than a couple of hours.


----------



## barlicker (Jun 25, 2020)

There are a few parking areas in N.Yorks but only a few. Settle, Skipton and Ingleton have motorhome only parking and at £5 a night.


----------



## Biggarmac (Jun 26, 2020)

Great letter.  The only thing I would add would be an explanation of the symbols on the French map.  That would show the range of options for aires.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 26, 2020)

barlicker said:


> There are a few parking areas in N.Yorks but only a few. Settle, Skipton and Ingleton have motorhome only parking and at £5 a night.




Been to all of these,recently last year.Skipton was interesting as on second visit we awoke early to find a market setting up around us and all the other  Motorhomes as well.Some were actually in theory blocked in for the day.To get out the market stalls would have needed dismantling.We escaped just before we got blocked in.So some would have woken with a surprise and a need to refill the pay machine even if they had planned to leave.Bear this in mind if you visit.


----------



## runnach (Jun 26, 2020)

.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 26, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Been to all of these,recently last year.Skipton was interesting as on second visit we awoke early to find a market setting up around us and all the other  Motorhomes as well.Some were actually in theory blocked in for the day.To get out the market stalls would have needed dismantling.We escaped just before we got blocked in.So some would have woken with a surprise and a need to refill the pay machine even if they had planned to leave.Bear this in mind if you visit.



I have never seen a market on Coach Street Car park which is the only car park for ovenight Motorhome parking park in Skipton. The  market is on High Steet. I would think it must have been a special event.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 26, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> I have never seen a market on Coach Street Car park which is the only car park for ovenight Motorhome parking park in Skipton. The  market is on High Steet. I would think it must have been a special event.





I saw one.I was there with Swmbo and our two Cat travellers Special event or not I was  just advising of our experience and to warn other Motorhomes to be aware.i/e if not a regular market then check before one goes there.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 26, 2020)

mickymost said:


> I saw one.I was there with Swmbo and our two Cat travellers Special event or not I was  just advising of our experience and to warn other Motorhomes to be aware.i/e if not a regular market then check before one goes there.





We have also used Settle and Ingleton marked bays.Settle is the photo on my Bio.


----------



## antiquesam (Jun 27, 2020)

I did get under a murmuration of starlings in Skipton last year but I stayed in March and all was clear, but trying to get the machine to take a card was difficult.


----------



## mickymost (Jun 27, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> I did get under a murmuration of starlings in Skipton last year but I stayed in March and all was clear, but trying to get the machine to take a card was difficult.



Ive had trouble with that pay machine as well.The first time we went and stayed at Skipton the machine charged my card for a weeks parking.Once home I wrote to the Council and battled with them to get a refund as I only wanted to stay for one night.To be fair once I explained I had spoke to an on site Parking Warden after the Machine had scammed me the Council duly refunded my money.The funny part is Swmbo and I werent on best terms the day we arrived so she was reluctant to give  (or lend)me the correct change for the machine.I  vowed that day when I was scammed never to use a card in a parking machine again as I was so angry being charged £70 for one nights parking..Although I cant see me sticking to that as how often does one have the correct change anyway.


----------



## antiquesam (Jun 27, 2020)

This is what winds people up. A P reg van parked by the side of the road in Southsea. Awning and chairs out on the road between the town and the DDay Museum. We really can't blame people hiring vans not knowing the etiquette, unless they've started doing vintage now.


----------



## RichardHelen262 (Jun 27, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> This is what winds people up. A P reg van parked by the side of the road in Southsea. Awning and chairs out on the road between the town and the DDay Museum. We really can't blame people hiring vans not knowing the etiquette, unless they've started doing vintage now.View attachment 83811


Not something we would do but if the car behind got out a picnic rug and picnic no one would bat an eyelid, yet that’s all the people in the motorhome are doing


----------



## runnach (Jun 27, 2020)

helen262 said:


> Not something we would do but if the car behind got out a picnic rug and picnic no one would bat an eyelid, yet that’s all the people in the motorhome are doing


My first reaction too


----------



## antiquesam (Jun 27, 2020)

helen262 said:


> Not something we would do but if the car behind got out a picnic rug and picnic no one would bat an eyelid, yet that’s all the people in the motorhome are doing


I'm afraid they would. The road runs between two sections of the Common. Hundreds of people get the picnic out on the grass but not normally on the road side.


----------



## runnach (Jun 27, 2020)

The picture looks like it could be the stray in Harrogate, a summers day the place littered with people locals mainly sunbathing ,picnics on the grass, dog walkers joggers you get the picture,,,,and the occasional camper used as a live station rather than overnight accommodation....Police seem to let folk get on with it and only interfere where car or van are causing obviouus obstruction


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 27, 2020)

helen262 said:


> Not something we would do but if the car behind got out a picnic rug and picnic no one would bat an eyelid, yet that’s all the people in the motorhome are doing



We were wild camping on Arran at Kerr’s point near Lamlash.
A car drew up and they got out with their flasks an sandwiches. They laid out a cloth on the grass and were about to sort out the food. I said to my wife how about offering them our table and chairs making it a bit more comfy. Well they accepted our offer. I opened up the garage door, got out the table and chairs for them. After they were finished I put them back. Then as you say Helen the penny dropped, they did what we stop ourselves from doing. What’s the difference. This all stems from our fear of criticism for doing something that car drivers quite rightly do. But just to keep the peace we never take out the table and chairs in such locations. But in empty rural locations up the west coast we love a meal and some wine whilst watching the world going buy in a scenic location.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 27, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> We were wild camping on Arran at Kerr’s point near Lamlash.
> A car drew up and they got out with their flasks an sandwiches. They laid out a cloth on the grass and were about to sort out the food. I said to my wife how about offering them our table and chairs making it a bit more comfy. Well they accepted our offer. I opened up the garage door, got out the table and chairs for them. After they were finished I put them back. Then as you say Helen the penny dropped, they did what we stop ourselves from doing. What’s the difference. This all stems from our fear of criticism for doing something that car drivers quite rightly do. But just to keep the peace we never take out the table and chairs in such locations. But in empty rural locations up the west coast we love a meal and some wine whilst watching the world going buy in a scenic location.


Yes, it’s all a question of managing our image. The idiots that did the same on the flowerbeds in Bexhill on Sea for example did us no favours giving ammunition to those who supported the PSPO banning us all. It’s simple enough, common sense really, we just have to be aware of the sensibilities of others.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 27, 2020)

Anyone writing to Whitby...or am I banging head against brick wall? Just had a look at the Campra group on FB, more verbiage and venting, can’t see any clear campaign yet, but I live in hope.


----------



## Fisherman (Jun 27, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Anyone writing to Whitby...or am I banging head against brick wall? Just had a look at the Campra group on FB, more verbiage and venting, can’t see any clear campaign yet, but I live in hope.



We need an organisation to take care of these issues.


----------



## antiquesam (Jun 27, 2020)

channa said:


> The picture looks like it could be the stray in Harrogate, a summers day the place littered with people locals mainly sunbathing ,picnics on the grass, dog walkers joggers you get the picture,,,,and the occasional camper used as a live station rather than overnight accommodation....Police seem to let folk get on with it and only interfere where car or van are causing obviouus obstruction


I suppose they are making a contribution to the local economy at £1.80 an hour parking charge.


----------



## Simonfrench (Jun 28, 2020)

Well, we are in the SW and every council stinks and incredibly short sited because the local population are fed up with travelers who continually leave there crap and rip off people with door to door offers of work. They can’t distinguish between us and them. The police have no problem dealing with us but travelers are the exception, so wrong. I live in hope for all 250,000 CV that they wake up to the French way of things but alas whilst the police are so crap I think not. 
Anybody know of any great places in SW Wales for wild camping?


----------



## Simonfrench (Jun 28, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/257952570918079/posts/3327195913993714
			




Example.


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 28, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Anyone writing to Whitby...or am I banging head against brick wall? Just had a look at the Campra group on FB, more verbiage and venting, can’t see any clear campaign yet, but I live in hope.


I take that back. Just seen a very encouraging reply from Blackpool North and Clevelys MP to an edited version of my letter from a Campra member. Surprising how things get around. Perhaps it’s worth the effort after all.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 29, 2020)

Small steps;  she's, I thihk, talking about campsites but it's my guess she's mindful of what's been going on Another possible recipien for Barge's letter?     I'll send her a copy of my little paper too.









						Overnight Stays To Be Welcomed Along Scarborough Borough
					

Scarborough Borough Council is set to welcome back visitors who wish to stay overnight.




					www.yorkshirecoastradio.com


----------



## barge1914 (Jun 29, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Small steps;  she's, I thihk, talking about campsites but it's my guess she's mindful of what's been going on Another possible recipien for Barge's letter?     I'll send her a copy of my little paper too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't send it directly to her, but one of the Whitby Councillors did ask if I would mind him copying the letter to the others, but it would take no effort for me to send one direct, perhaps including a suggestion Scarborough reconsider their previously hostile attitude.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jun 29, 2020)

Yes, I think so.  Maybe not coming down to heavily on the past hostility;   put them on the defensive and they might find reason to go back to it.   Not fawning either - I think your letter is just right.  Maybe something in the introduction about _" It's good that we seem to be coming together in our ambitions for the Scarborough area." _ Something like that.  You're better at it then me.


----------

