# Exchangeable or Refillable?



## RoaminRog (Sep 15, 2017)

Went out today to fill the 2x11kg Gas It bottles, ready for our gadabout Northumbria next week, and I decided to use the local Calor centre instead of a filling station.
The filling stn were charging 66p/litre and Calor charged us 44p/litre

Two 11kg bottles, refilled for less than £18!

That must go some way to persuade any doubters that _Refillable_ is the way to go.


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## The laird (Sep 15, 2017)

Good luck starting to shine on you at last rog


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## RoaminRog (Sep 15, 2017)

The laird said:


> Good luck starting to shine on you at last rog



Good Luck may indeed be shining on me Gordon but the weather here isn't. 
It's bl**dy well pouring down here!

See you soon, :cheers:


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## Admin (Sep 15, 2017)

There is no road fuel duty on LPG for habitation use, it is 31.6p per kg on LPG for vehicle use.


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## Pauljenny (Sep 15, 2017)

You live and learn!
Thanks, chaps.
But I'm not driving all the way back from Bordeaux.
I'll bear it in mind.


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## 2cv (Sep 15, 2017)

I agree that refillable is great. On the IOM in summer we found that there was only one lpg outlet, so it was 95p a litre there!


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## Fazerloz (Sep 15, 2017)

Just been and filled ours at our local filling station 49p/ltr. ready for our gadabout Northumbria next week.  :cheers:


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## Deleted member 9849 (Sep 15, 2017)

Having had both I would say refillable is the way to go.Fortunately the current van had a 60 litre lpg tank fitted when we bought it.Very convenient,an absolute doddle to refill,no lifting heavy bottles in and out of the gas locker and as has been said,much cheaper than exchange bottles.Another bonus is that it has freed up the gas locker for extra storage space.Apart from the initial installation cost I can't think of any negatives about refillables.


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## Admin (Sep 15, 2017)

I have ordered a twin 11kg AluGas kit for my new van.


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## RoaminRog (Sep 15, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> Just been and filled ours at our local filling station 49p/ltr. ready for our gadabout Northumbria next week.  :cheers:



Will keep an eye out for your 'W'.
Look out for two plonkers leaning out and waving.
Two fingers means 'it's the second time we've seen you'.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 15, 2017)

Admin said:


> I have ordered a twin 11kg AluGas kit for my new van.



I am surprised I would have thought you would have supported Gasit. A fair premium to pay to save 4kg per bottle.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 15, 2017)

RoaminRog said:


> Will keep an eye out for your 'W'.
> Look out for two plonkers leaning out and waving.
> Two fingers means 'it's the second time we've seen you'.



I don't display a W I don't advertise the fact I am Wild Camping. Its easier to spot the Isle of Man Road Races sun shade on the windscreen if I spot you it will be the first time and I will rise 1 finger.


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## Admin (Sep 15, 2017)

***** said:


> Hope you negotiated a deal with Chris, Phil, and did you ask about a discount for the forum members?



Yes and Yes.

I need to speak to them next week about a discount, I am also speaking to Gaslow.

I like the AluGas bottles as they can be in use whilst the vehicle is in motion, so they do not need to be turned off (yes I know no one turns their bottles off)



> The Alugas MV cylinder also incorporates in the gas offtake valve a rupture protection excess flow device as a further safety feature which replaces the need for special "rupture protection type" pigtails with this valve fitted to them. This allows for safe travel with gas turned on and in some cases where allowed, operate heating while driving.



But the extra few kilos of weight saved is also a bonus.


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## Admin (Sep 15, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> I am surprised I would have thought you would have supported Gasit. A fair premium to pay to save 4kg per bottle.


They have other safety benefits too.

I have waited two weeks for a price from Gas It. Last Friday they were definitely contacting me on Monday, today I emailed them to tell them to forget it.


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## Tezza33 (Sep 15, 2017)

Admin said:


> They have other safety benefits too.
> 
> I have waited two weeks for a price from Gas It. Last Friday they were definitely contacting me on Monday, today I emailed them to tell them to forget it.


Do we still get a discount with Gas It, I emailed them a few days ago but they have not replied yet


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2017)

Admin said:


> I like the AluGas bottles as they can be in use whilst the vehicle is in motion, so they do not need to be turned off (yes I know no one turns their bottles off)



To be fair the more sophisticated 'four-valve' GasIt bottles also have this feature:

_The Gas outlet has a large flow capacity and is fitted with a full excess flow valve meaning the tank will shut off automatically if the pigtail bursts or the bottle is removed.  Under EN1949:2011 regulation, this GAS IT Plus bottle does not need a expensive secumotion type regulator to use your appliances whilst driving ( if the appliances are approved for use whilst driving )_


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## chrismilo (Sep 16, 2017)

*Rant*

I'm getting peed of with gasit  I'm trying to put an underslung gas tank system together adding things to basket on gasit site
I'm planning to do this end of month someone from Caernarfon keeps ringing me oh you've still got stuff in your basket the otherday I was busy with something they called again I told him I would purchase WHEN I was ready good mind to go to gaslow  that desperate for business or what rant over !


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## Deleted member 38440 (Sep 16, 2017)

*Calor refillable depots.*

Does anyone have a list of the depots
that will refill your moho lpg tank? I've ask calor and they don't!!!!


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## saxonrosie (Sep 16, 2017)

grahammay2 said:


> Does anyone have a list of the depots
> that will refill your moho lpg tank? I've ask calor and they don't!!!!



I have just rung calor dealer also they had no idea either.


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## Admin (Sep 16, 2017)

Tezza33 said:


> Do we still get a discount with Gas It, I emailed them a few days ago but they have not replied yet



Yes, but you are better buying a kit from getgas.co.uk. It is Gas It equipment better they sell it cheaper than our discount price.

Twin 11kg kit from Gas It is £374.03 + £18.30 P&P = £392.22 - 5% discount = £372.61
Twin 11kg kit from Getgas is £335.00 + £10.00 P&P = £340


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## Fazerloz (Sep 16, 2017)

Admin said:


> They have other safety benefits too.
> 
> I have waited two weeks for a price from Gas It. Last Friday they were definitely contacting me on Monday, today I emailed them to tell them to forget it.



That is fair enough I don't blame you for telling them not to bother I would have myself.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 16, 2017)

Admin said:


> There is no road fuel duty on LPG for habitation use, it is 31.6p per kg on LPG for vehicle use.



In theory you are correct that LPG used for heating or refrigeration is Road Fuel Duty Free, but that does not apply to LPG from a tank that is designated to supply motor vehicles (ie. Autogas) as HMRC collect the duty as the bulk tank is filled and not at point of sale.   There is no system in place to recover this excess duty, unlike there is for bio fuels.

If the supplier can fill a bottle/tank from a supply without duty having been paid such as their bottle filling line, then it is possible.

VAT should be 5% in any case, but again the forecourt operators will not do this because of the possibility of fraud by their staff, if they were given the opportunity to change the VAT rate at point of sale.

Calor Gas Ltd (not all Calor franchise operations) and Countrywide Farmers  will supply at 5% VAT but you have to register for an account with them first.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 16, 2017)

grahammay2 said:


> Does anyone have a list of the depots
> that will refill your moho lpg tank? I've ask calor and they don't!!!!



I have made this enquiry also with the same result.  Grizebeck Filling Station will supply at 5% VAT    No one I have tried will fill a gas tank without the road fuel duty being paid, although HMRC say it is possible.  (I have this in writing from HMRC Bristol)

The only way I can see is to get a Domestic LPG tank installed and fit a pump to that, to fill your van tank.   This means you have to pay for all your gas up front.


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## Admin (Sep 16, 2017)

John Thompson said:


> In theory you are correct that LPG used for heating or refrigeration is Road Fuel Duty Free, but that does not apply to LPG from a tank that is designated to supply motor vehicles (ie. Autogas) as HMRC collect the duty as the bulk tank is filled and not at point of sale.   There is no system in place to recover this excess duty, unlike there is for bio fuels.
> 
> If the supplier can fill a bottle/tank from a supply without duty having been paid such as their bottle filling line, then it is possible.
> 
> ...



I was talking about the road fuel duty not the VAT.

In Birmingham, there are several sites that will charge the lower rate, but they are not brand name fuel companies.


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## malagaoth (Sep 16, 2017)

> Twin 11kg kit from Gas It is £374.03 + £18.30 P&P = £392.22 - 5% discount = £372.61
> Twin 11kg kit from Getgas is £335.00 + £10.00 P&P = £340




either way you would have to burn a lot of gas before you start making a saving.

bottled calor is available just about anywhere refilling with LPG isnt also so convenient, whe I was in Orkney over the summer I met one couple who were having to cut their visit short because they were low on gas and a refill is not available on the island - actually north of the great glen lpg pumps are like hens teeth (Lairg and Ullapool and a couple south of  Alness)


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## Keithchesterfield (Sep 16, 2017)

I fitted a Gaslow system to my previous Motorhome and when we sold it I just moved it to the newer MH.

If we ever have to sell up, age isn't on my side, then I can sell the system and recoup quite a bit of my initial outlay.

Also there's no more lifting heavy bottles in and out, no more swearing when you trap your knuckles or drop the cylinder on your foot and we never run out – when one bottle empties we search for an Lpg station in the next few days.

France where we travel most has filling stations throughout the country and, despite having an internal filling point, have never been stopped from filling up.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 17, 2017)

malagaoth said:


> either way you would have to burn a lot of gas before you start making a saving.



I have used 11,000 litres since fitting my 85Litre under slung tank.  That is an awful lot of bottles to lift and move about.  Full timing I was using 1100 litres a year.

As for running out that is just bad planning.  You know how long a tank will last.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 17, 2017)

Admin said:


> I was talking about the road fuel duty not the VAT.
> 
> In Birmingham, there are several sites that will charge the lower rate, but they are not brand name fuel companies.



That is good to hear.  I made lots of enquiries in the North East and no one would supply other than the forecourts and Calor Gas Ltd Depot.   

Flogas seems to be removing Autogas from their Depots.  The one at Blaydon did quite some time ago and the one a Roche in Cornwall has recently.

As requested by another poster above is it possible to produce a list of such suppliers.   Lots of filling stations are now removing LPG so this could become vital information.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Sep 17, 2017)

malagaoth said:


> either way you would have to burn a lot of gas before you start making a saving......................................



Very true,but I don't think the majority of motorhomers buy refillables bottles or tanks to save money.It's for convenience,particularly when on the continent.There's no need to get a local gas bottle and with the correct adaptors LPG bottles can be refilled in most countries.


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## jagmanx (Sep 17, 2017)

*Refillable for me*

Before we has 2 x 6kg calor
Exchange price at least £20 maybe £25
New one every 10 days so £75 a month
Not available in Europe

Now we have 2 x 11kg Gas-it
Fill ups detailed below mainly under £25 a month !

Date	              Day	Days		               Litres	  Cost  cost / Litre	Month cost
13/09/2016	Tue						
01/04/2017	Sat	17	Slimbridge	        20.3	£12.15	£0.60	£21.44
08/05/2017	Mon	37	Maidenhead	32.5	£19.46	£0.60	£15.78
28/05/2017	Sun	20	Nairn	        30.5	£20.40	£0.67	£30.60
24/06/2017	Sat	27	Coleraine	       30.0	£19.16	£0.64	£21.29
15/07/2017	Sat	21	Tralee	        21.0	£15.30	£0.73	£21.86
02/08/2017	Wed	18	Fishguard	       19.0	£12.00	£0.63	£20.00
02/09/2017	Sat	31	Maidenhead	37.0	£23.00	£0.62	£22.26

ALSO mainly very easy to fill up in Europe often every 3 weeks

Also saving say £50 a month for 5 months = £250 a year
*Installed  mid summer 2014 so 3.5 years = £875 savings installation was £600 including a BBQ point...Game Set and Match ?*


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## malagaoth (Sep 17, 2017)

> Before we has 2 x 6kg calor
> Exchange price at least £20 maybe £25



well that is just about the most expensive way to buy gas - unless you buy campingaz.

My last 13kg cost me £28 a 6kg bottle is £21 so you could have almost halved your costs by just switching to 13Kg bottles (assuming they fit), I use 13kg and carry a 3.9kg emergeny bottle (I have room for another 13kg but like to keep the weight down) 3.9Kg are mega expensive (£16) but it is only used if I run out at night and cant get a new 13kg so I usually get a couple of seasons out of one.

You do seem to be using a lot of gas though, in 9 weeks wild camping in northern Scotland and Orkney I still have a little gas from the full bottle I took and that was with me showering every day and running the heater  for a short time some days.


I can absolutely see the utility and the savings of refillable especially if lifting the bottles is a strain but I wouldnt be paying £300 to change not given my useage which I think is fairly typical (about 20kg per year)


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## barryd (Sep 17, 2017)

Our 11kg gaslow which I put In 9 years ago paid for itself in 18 months but who cares?  I liken it to trundling around Europe with a paper map instead of an up to date sat nav.  Both will work but why not use the latest technology to make life easier and ultimately more enjoyable?

Ours is dead easy to switch over to a traditional Calor bottle so if I'm out in the boonies or static for several weeks on some island somewhere and the gaslow runs out I can switch to Calor or whatever.  I'm mainly out in sunny Europe though (well Arctic Europe as September has turned out) so I just top up like I do diesel.  What's not to like?


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## Admin (Sep 17, 2017)

For me knowing that I am full of gas (no puns please) when I set off to Scotland in November makes the cost worthwhile. I like the convenience of just being able to top up the tanks. Can you imagine if the motorhome had two fuel tanks and you just swapped them when empty (but got no refund for remaining fuel)? As more and more new motorhomes are fitted with underslung tanks and the market grows, we will see more hab gas filling points.

I am fitting an external BBQ point to my motorhome, so I will always have the option to connect the large bottle I carry in the trailer and back feed the system.


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## Robmac (Sep 17, 2017)

Admin said:


> ............I am fitting an external BBQ point to my motorhome, so I will always have the option to connect the large bottle I carry in the trailer and back feed the system.



I've done they very same Phil.

With the added bonus that I can connect a barbecue as well.


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## runnach (Sep 17, 2017)

It seems to me cost effectiveness is variable from individual to individual ...I had a 19 kg propane calor with bottle mounted reg ...for the uK it was never an issue, Abroad however extend trips Calor is as much use as a chocolate fireguard and bought a Calypso Antargas  ...from memory 26 euros including regulator replacement bottle 16 euros ....regs are an issue if moving long periods country to country you collect them like stamps. On board refillables in the long term can save money if you are a high volume user...And for most it is the convenience factor 

My back up was a  Coleman petrol stove so always could get a brew lead free fuel available everywhere disadvantage carrying a container of fuel. 

FWIW if I were speccing a van I would go lpg for cooking and hotwater heating eberspacher off the diesel possibly a separate tank

Channa


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## Admin (Sep 17, 2017)

channa said:


> It seems to me cost effectiveness is variable from individual to individual ...I had a 19 kg propane calor with bottle mounted reg ...for the uK it was never an issue, Abroad however extend trips Calor is as much use as a chocolate fireguard and bought a Calypso Antargas  ...from memory 26 euros including regulator replacement bottle 16 euros ....regs are an issue if moving long periods country to country you collect them like stamps. On board refillables in the long term can save money if you are a high volume user...And for most it is the convenience factor
> 
> My back up was a  Coleman petrol stove so always could get a brew lead free fuel available everywhere disadvantage carrying a container of fuel.
> 
> ...




With the Transit, I was not too bothered about running the heating on diesel, with a 7m van I don't want to be paying £1.10 a litre to heat the van. I know that it can be run on red, but by the time I have messed around sourcing it and filling a separate tank I would rather have LPG.


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## Tezza33 (Sep 17, 2017)

I know mine has more than paid for itself but even if it hadn't I would still have fitted it, £50000+ for a motorhome so why worry about the cost of a bulk tank, I also have used my BBQ take off point to connect a bottle on the odd times I have needed to


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## malagaoth (Sep 17, 2017)

> As more and more new motorhomes are fitted with underslung tanks and the market grows, we will see more hab gas filling points.



surely motorhomers topping up their gas tanks is a tiny market compared to the LPG car market (which itself isnt exactly large)




> Ours is dead easy to switch over to a traditional Calor bottle so if I'm out in the boonies or static for several weeks on some island somewhere and the gaslow runs out I can switch to Calor or whatever



two points arising,
(1)  gaslow  tanks in the gas locker where do you put the gas bottle?
(2) dont you then have to pay the absorbitant 'deposit' charge?


Whilst in Orkney I was talking to a chap with a self build that used diesel for  every thing - engine, heating and cooking -  he reckoned that you could get good diesel any where and I suppose it did away with the need for a gas locker


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## Deleted member 58330 (Sep 17, 2017)

malagaoth said:


> either way you would have to burn a lot of gas before you start making a saving.
> 
> bottled calor is available just about anywhere refilling with LPG isnt also so convenient, whe I was in Orkney over the summer I met one couple who were having to cut their visit short because they were low on gas and a refill is not available on the island - actually north of the great glen lpg pumps are like hens teeth (Lairg and Ullapool and a couple south of  Alness)


 and ullapool shut at weekend, currently eating until tomorrow to go for a refill before heading north


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## Deleted member 58330 (Sep 17, 2017)

Will lpg be about in 5 years time though...who buys lpg cars these days!


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## malagaoth (Sep 17, 2017)

> and ullapool shut at weekend



ullapool must be about the most unobliging petrol station in the UK, they know that there is nothing north of them for miles and yet when I called in for fuel a few years back they refused to serve me because it was about 30 seconds after 6.00pm (the six oclock news had only just started) the lights were on there were people inside but they wouldnt turn on the pump.


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## barryd (Sep 18, 2017)

malagaoth said:


> surely motorhomers topping up their gas tanks is a tiny market compared to the LPG car market (which itself isnt exactly large)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I only have 1x11kg gaslow so there is room in the gas locker for a 6kg or 13kg calor which I've had for donkeys years but I would only take the calor if I was going to the Scottish isles or somewhere where there is no autogas.  In mainland Europe no need


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## Private (Sep 19, 2017)

*I doubt it*



hairydog said:


> That's a good question. What happened to LPG? I used to have an LPG converted car. It was brilliant. If I could have found a petrol car to convert, I'd have done it. But all of them were diesel.
> Now car and van makers are committing to moving away from petrol and diesel, we may see a resurgence in LPG fuelled vehicles.



LPG works for cars; therefore there will be no resurgence. 
When the trucks owners realised the benefits of LPG the government quickly changed the rules to put a halt to their savings.


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