# Electric motorhome



## Wully (Dec 26, 2018)

A new all-electric motorhome will launch in 2019 in Germany


----------



## sparrks (Dec 26, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> A new all-electric motorhome will launch in 2019 in Germany



When touring you will certainly need a scooter or decent e-bike - looks to be a good starting point.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 26, 2018)

The mileage would have to improve considerably before I looked at one, but they have to start somewhere. Personally I think the internal combustion engine is far from dead yet.


----------



## Wully (Dec 26, 2018)

Think you’re right on the money they have too start somewhere was thinking if they took weight of engine and gearbox off I know the electric motors have some weight but a motorhome is probably a good base for an electric vehicle as plenty of places too put extra batteries especially double floored vans and once they get the new silicone base batteries stable enough the price should come down drastically.


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 26, 2018)

I have no confidence in electric long range vehicles unless it was possible to swap the battery out at service stations that were as common as petrol stations as we know them.l don't think electric is the future, it worked with milk floats but that was yesteryear.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 26, 2018)

At the moment there are no weight savings to be had by removing engines and transmission as the batteries required still weigh considerably more  so in reality it has to be eating into payload .That has to be why it has such restricted mileage it simply on its weight limits, and can not carry any more battery. There still needs to be a massive breakthrough in battery technology that hasn't happened yet.


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

Kevin Ash of MCN disregard electric,and that's good enough for me, but it was to be swapping discharged batteries at petrol/energy stations would be a solution.


----------



## Deleted member 75561 (Dec 27, 2018)

*When will our expensive Deisel Motorhome be worthless.*

There’s going to be a point in time when anything run on Deisel will be worthless as the Year for banning Deisel comes closer. We won’t want to spend 60K plus in the future knowing it’s going to depreciate.


----------



## Trotter (Dec 27, 2018)

The demise of the diesel scares me witless. Just got into this motorhomeing lark, and now someone is throwing a spanner in the works.
Remember when the experts were telling us to buy diesel,so much better for the environment than nasty petrol?

The amount of solar required to run this would beat even Phil and Rae.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

martinmartin said:


> Kevin Ash of MCN disregard electric,and that's good enough for me, but it was to be swapping discharged batteries at petrol/energy stations would be a solution.



One thing about Kevin is he does keep his finger on the pulse.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

Noeldoes said:


> There’s going to be a point in time when anything run on Deisel will be worthless as the Year for banning Deisel comes closer. We won’t want to spend 60K plus in the future knowing it’s going to depreciate.



If there is a breakthrough in diesel technology it will not be banned, don't underestimate the political power of oil companies, Wars are fought for the control of oil.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

Like it or lump it piston engines are going in 2040 GB ,FRANCE 2030.
Have you noticed the price hike in diesel fuel at pumps,you will have no choice but to buy electric in future,and may i point out diesel vans will be unwanted and sold for buttons,not that it will bother most of us as we will be eating worms.:scared:


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

No price hike around here Trev. 120/122p per litre for diesel.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> At the moment there are no weight savings to be had by removing engines and transmission as the batteries required still weigh considerably more  so in reality it has to be eating into payload .That has to be why it has such restricted mileage it simply on its weight limits, and can not carry any more battery. There still needs to be a massive breakthrough in battery technology that hasn't happened yet.


Indeed so.
The extra weight is why the 3.5t GVW limit for light vans has been raised to 4.25t GVW for Electric Vehicles to compensate for the batteries.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

Can anyone imagine politicians ever doing a U turn on something.
Diesel at Bosch: your questions answered - Bosch Media Service


----------



## ricc (Dec 27, 2018)

with current technology theres noway that civilisation as we know it can continue without the internal combustion engine, 
ill go further and say the diesel engine is esential and will remain so.  open your eyes and look at industry.
agriculture ,construction and transport all rely on diesel engines, petrol and gas dont get a look in on anything bigger than a lawnmower engine.  electric wont get anywhere until it can replace a 150 hpdiesel running loaded 12 hours a day 7 days a week.   the batteries and charging system that can do that arnt even a twinkle in a boffins eye yet.

growing biomass for refining into a diesel replacement is far more technically feasable..and  we wont need to use energy to produce all the leccy motors and batteries, is there enough copper wire to make all these motors?  ..only problem is we need the land needed to grow the biomass for food production.

 enjoy today and dont worry about next week.....lets face it were doomed whichever way we look at it


----------



## Trotter (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Like it or lump it piston engines are going in 2040 GB ,FRANCE 2030.
> Have you noticed the price hike in diesel fuel at pumps,you will have no choice but to buy electric in future,and may i point out diesel vans will be unwanted and sold for buttons,not that it will bother most of us as we will be eating worms.:scared:



Eating worms? Not me. I got a pension quote a couple of days ago, I’ve got to live until I’m 87, before I use up MY money, Aviva are holding. I have every intention of costing them money.
Vans, unwanted and sold for buttons! No, I’ll take the wheels off, put it up on bricks, and live in it, until I’m 90, wrinkly, ok wrinklier, and smelly. Not having smellier.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

Of course, for a Motorhome, the question is ....

What kind of split charge system would you install to charge up the Lesiure Batteries from the .... um ..... Starter Batteries?
Bit of a catch there, methinks.

Electric Vans for City delivery trucks - Yes.  Long Distance vehicles - long way to go before that happens.


As a slight aside this is a interesting idea .... How to charge an RV via EV Charging Station (J1772) - EcoNeato.org


----------



## Robmac (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> .......... most of us as we will be eating worms.:scared:



Shouldn't that be eaten by worms Trev? :rolleyes2:


----------



## GreggBear (Dec 27, 2018)

martinmartin said:


> I have no confidence in electric long range vehicles unless it was possible to swap the battery out at service stations that were as common as petrol stations as we know them.l don't think electric is the future, it worked with milk floats but that was yesteryear.


Didn't really work tho did it? I remember our local dairy had a recovery truck that was used just for dragging dead milk floats back to base. Electric may well be the future, but for now it looks like a non starter of an idea to me. Don't forget electricity doesn't grow wild either, so it's not completely clean either.....


----------



## GreggBear (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Indeed so.
> The extra weight is why the 3.5t GVW limit for light vans has been raised to 4.25t GVW for Electric Vehicles to compensate for the batteries.


Does that mean anyone passing their driving test after 1997 will not be able to drive one? Or is this just another law the govt have manipulated to suit themselves?...


----------



## GreggBear (Dec 27, 2018)

Trotter said:


> Eating worms? Not me. I got a pension quote a couple of days ago, I’ve got to live until I’m 87, before I use up MY money, Aviva are holding. I have every intention of costing them money.
> Vans, unwanted and sold for buttons! No, I’ll take the wheels off, put it up on bricks, and live in it, until I’m 90, wrinkly, ok wrinklier, and smelly. Not having smellier.



Good luck with that one buddy, you can't easily live in your van now due to current legislation, they'll not allow that kind of behaviour if they get on a "ban your van" roll.


----------



## mickymost (Dec 27, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> A new all-electric motorhome will launch in 2019 in Germany



Mmmm if you could link solar panels to the batteries wonder how far the range would increase?I bet this will have an extortionate price though.Look at much an electric car costs in comparison.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

GreggBear said:


> Does that mean anyone passing their driving test after 1997 will not be able to drive one? Or is this just another law the govt have manipulated to suit themselves?...


no. the limit is raised so you CAN drive a 4.25t Electric vehicle on a standard license and without the HGV rules applying

Quick search finds lots of info - this is first link when I just looked - New Plans for Electric Vans - LeasePlan UK

Excerpt:
_The biggest of the proposed changes is to do with the size of vans. Currently, people with a standard category B driving licence for cars can drive a van with a gross weight of up to 3.5t.  The Government wants to increase this to 4.25t, just so long as the van’s powered by electricity, natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), or hydrogen_.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

mickymost said:


> Mmmm if you could link solar panels to the batteries wonder how far the range would increase?I bet this will have an extortionate price though.Look at much an electric car costs in comparison.


extra 5 miles?


----------



## mark61 (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> extra 5 miles?




I was going to guess at 1 mile, with full water.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Indeed so.
> The extra weight is why the 3.5t GVW limit for light vans has been raised to 4.25t GVW for Electric Vehicles to compensate for the batteries.



Has that actually happened yet or are they still just talking about it. If so has the licence categories been change to suit it as well, as I don't seem to be able to find anything especially on the licence side of categories going up from 3500kg yet.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> Has that actually happened yet or are they still just talking about it. If so has the licence categories been change to suit it as well, as I don't seem to be able to find anything especially on the licence side of categories going up from 3500kg yet.


are there any "electricity, natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), or hydrogen" vans around available to buy which would make it neccessary yet?


And remember it is not a general change, but just for vehicles with those specific power sources.

Here is the current status: 
Category B driving licence derogation for alternatively fuelled commercial vehicles - GOV.UK

And there is a kind of precedent - holders of Class B licenses can already drive 4.25t minibuses (for non-profit) rather than 3.5t IF they are equipped with ramps or lifts for disabled access. (I don't think you will find that noted on the driving license either?)
From gov.uk PDF ... 
_"If you hire a minibus you must ensure that you have the correct licence to drive. It is important that if you are considering driving the minibus on your car driving licence that you first check the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW); the hirer should be able to advise you of this. If the GVW is above 3.5t, then you cannot drive this minibus on your car licence unless it is fitted with a wheel chair lift and that allows an increase to the GVW to 4.25t."_


----------



## yorkslass (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Indeed so.
> The extra weight is why the 3.5t GVW limit for light vans has been raised to 4.25t GVW for Electric Vehicles to compensate for the batteries.



At the moment most younger drivers can only drive 3500, but will be able to drive 4.25 if electric,. 
Makes a mockery of current laws. They make em up to suit as they go along.


----------



## colinm (Dec 27, 2018)

So we have a vehicle with quoted range of 200km, most electric vehicles true range is around 80% of quoted, that's 160km, or 100miles in old money. Those of us living in the centre of the country will struggle to get to the nearest bit of coast. Not looking at all practical.


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 27, 2018)

I thought the target dates for stopping sales of new diesels - 2030, 2040 etc. only applied to cars, i.e. M1 category

It depends on how tthey draft the legislation as to whether it applies to MHs i.e. M1 (Special purpose)category.

If it will be still legal to buy a diesel vehicle in one country will it be legal to drive it in a country that has banned their sale? Could be an international legislative minefield, especially if the two countries were both EU and subscribed to freedom of movement.

I suspect the intentions to ban are a 'Political Wish List' which will melt under the difficulties of drafting the laws and implimenting them.

Geoff


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> are there any "electricity, natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), or hydrogen" vans around available to buy which would make it neccessary yet?
> 
> 
> And remember it is not a general change, but just for vehicles with those specific power sources.
> ...



That is all is for commercial goods vehicles class N1 and may not automatically carry over to something registered as a motorcaravan which is class M1 Special purpose, but I hope it will.
I had a 2000 reg Transit with Ford factory fit LPG so I suppose there could be. As for the link Its the summary of a proposal to seek exemption from. So I assume its not legal as of yet.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

yorkslass said:


> At the moment most younger drivers can only drive 3500, but will be able to drive 4.25 if electric,.
> Makes a mockery of current laws. They make em up to suit as they go along.



That sounds about right.


----------



## Polar Bear (Dec 27, 2018)

Launched but died on the launch pad?

Winnebago launches an all-electric RV platform - but it can't be used as an electric motorhome yet - Electrek


----------



## sparrks (Dec 27, 2018)

ricc said:


> with current technology theres noway that civilisation as we know it can continue without the internal combustion engine,
> ill go further and say the diesel engine is esential and will remain so.  open your eyes and look at industry.
> agriculture ,construction and transport all rely on diesel engines, petrol and gas dont get a look in on anything bigger than a lawnmower engine.  electric wont get anywhere until it can replace a 150 hpdiesel running loaded 12 hours a day 7 days a week.   the batteries and charging system that can do that arnt even a twinkle in a boffins eye yet.
> 
> ...



With the phasing out of several UK nuclear plants in the coming years there is speculation that there will be significant shortages in the electricity supply chain at current  demand let alone the charging of several million electric vehicles although the smart meters will help a little. 
I read awhile ago (can't find the report) that the worlds demand for Cobolt will increase 28 x by the 2030's to supply the industry's demands this may be even greater if the number of 'Gigafactories' increase massively, an alternative battery technology needs to be found. Lithium-ion technology may have reached it's limit.
As a stopgap the Carbon neutral petrol/diesel/aviation fuel that I linked to the other day could help especially for planes and any surplus carbon captured could be stored underground.
I look forward to the day when we live in a really clean (pollution wise) environment but I think that is further away than the politicians suggest.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

ricc said:


> with current technology theres noway that civilisation as we know it can continue without the internal combustion engine,
> ill go further and say the diesel engine is esential and will remain so.  open your eyes and look at industry.
> agriculture ,construction and transport all rely on diesel engines, petrol and gas dont get a look in on anything bigger than a lawnmower engine.  electric wont get anywhere until it can replace a 150 hpdiesel running loaded 12 hours a day 7 days a week.   the batteries and charging system that can do that arnt even a twinkle in a boffins eye yet.
> 
> ...



The yanks have a 2000hp truck with over 600mile run on one charge,it can be 80% recharge in 20 mins giving a driver a coffee break,sorry but the piston engine by law which has been passed is dead,some folk dont like change and blindly refuse to see it.


----------



## colinm (Dec 27, 2018)

Carbon-ion is the new kid on the block, but it's not developed enough as yet.
Carbon ion batteries could charge electric vehicles to full capacity in five minutes, says ZapGo CEO — FreightWaves


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

colinmd said:


> So we have a vehicle with quoted range of 200km, most electric vehicles true range is around 80% of quoted, that's 160km, or 100miles in old money. Those of us living in the centre of the country will struggle to get to the nearest bit of coast. Not looking at all practical.



Batterys as now in cars are cut back by 40% and can be unlocked by the makers when they like at charge station via a code or ph apt,vw have just done this with the same battery from the golf which will be in the new car which will be on release in spring,range over 200miles,the last few years were test years,by the time 2040 things will be well sorted and most of us will be no more,FACT:scared::wave:


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

sparrks said:


> With the phasing out of several UK nuclear plants in the coming years there is speculation that there will be significant shortages in the electricity supply chain at current  demand let alone the charging of several million electric vehicles although the smart meters will help a little.
> I read awhile ago (can't find the report) that the worlds demand for Cobolt will increase 28 x by the 2030's to supply the industry's demands this may be even greater if the number of 'Gigafactories' increase massively, an alternative battery technology needs to be found. Lithium-ion technology may have reached it's limit.
> As a stopgap the Carbon neutral petrol/diesel/aviation fuel that I linked to the other day could help especially for planes and any surplus carbon captured could be stored underground.
> I look forward to the day when we live in a really clean (pollution wise) environment but I think that is further away than the politicians suggest.



Home in the future will by law have to be built with solar panels to charge cars at home during daylight hrs before some smart a-se takes the pi-s out of this thread,secont they have worked a way of using water hydro power and w/mills which at the moment are mainly switched of but will come into play in future years,why do you think so many are springing up,the future is mapped out like it or lump it electric is here.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

colinmd said:


> So we have a vehicle with quoted range of 200km, most electric vehicles true range is around 80% of quoted, that's 160km, or 100miles in old money. Those of us living in the centre of the country will struggle to get to the nearest bit of coast. Not looking at all practical.


It's over 100 mile round trip to get to the closest decent sized town for me which would have future restrictions on diesel and petrol vehicles.
I'd have to tow it with my dirty van so I could use it in the 'clean' city :baby:


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> It's over 100 mile round trip to get to the closest decent sized town for me which would have future restrictions on diesel and petrol vehicles.
> I'd have to tow it with my dirty van so I could use it in the 'clean' city :baby:



Tesla have already got cars with a 300/400 mile range,vans have more space but are heavy which will cut distance to about half.
But the is work on new salt based battery with 5 time the power and can be charged in 5 to 10 mins,we have 20 years to get sorted so just drive away for now and when most of us reach  between 80/100 years of age we could buy a new lecy van to last another 20 years,i wish.:wacko:


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

A Tesla 3 has a Battery Capacity of 80kWh.

What kind of infrastructure would you need to refill a 80kWh battery in 5-10 Minutes?
Taking the conservative 10 Minutes there, you would need to deliver 500kW on the connection - nah, I don't think so!


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> One thing about Kevin is he does keep his finger on the pulse.



He was dead right though in my opinion,all these years later its t he same problem about getting enough electric on board to travel long distances and replenish quickly.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

Interesting battle going on.

 [video=youtube;Bt6r7of5qA0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6r7of5qA0[/video]


----------



## sparrks (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Home in the future will by law have to be built with solar panels to charge cars at home during daylight hrs before some smart a-se takes the pi-s out of this thread,secont they have worked a way of using water hydro power and w/mills which at the moment are mainly switched of but will come into play in future years,why do you think so many are springing up,*the future is mapped out like it or lump it electric is here*.



I like the idea of an electric future just that I don't believe half of what is written - a bit like on this forum there has been comments in the past that their method of charging their leisure batteries result in charging them fully in an hour or so. Yes, I know this is lead acid versus new tech but crap is crap.


----------



## ricc (Dec 27, 2018)

if you google electric lorry you get reams of tesla announcing an electric truck with claims of 600 miles and 20 min recharge ... over a year ago and no updates.   or bmw actually using a 40tonne truck 16 km a day with 5 hour recharge.
BMW'''s 40-tonne electric truck hits public roads | WIRED UK

anyone got any other links


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 27, 2018)

*Budweiser* brewer Anheuser-Busch has ordered 40 of the Tesla trucks and up to 800 of the Nikola trucks.


----------



## colinm (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Tesla have already got cars with a 300/400 mile range,vans have more space but are heavy which will cut distance to about half.
> But the is work on new salt based battery with 5 time the power and can be charged in 5 to 10 mins,we have 20 years to get sorted so just drive away for now and when most of us reach  between 80/100 years of age we could buy a new lecy van to last another 20 years,i wish.:wacko:



I know several Tesla owners, none get 300/400 miles from a charge, the best they get is 280miles, perfectly fine for a car, but it still doesn't work as yet for a motorhome, in the future maybe.


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

colinmd said:


> I know several Tesla owners, none get 300/400 miles from a charge, the best they get is 280miles, perfectly fine for a car, but it still doesn't work as yet for a motorhome, in the future maybe.



280 miles,l bet that isn't at motorway speed or much above 30 MPH in reality.


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> *Budweiser* brewer Anheuser-Busch has ordered 40 of the Tesla trucks and up to 800 of the Nikola trucks.



The cinic in me says there be more to that order than meets the eye,tax breaks and connected company directors spring to mind.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> *Budweiser* brewer Anheuser-Busch has ordered 40 of the Tesla trucks and up to 800 of the Nikola trucks.



sounds Impressive?


Nah.

Amazon have ordered 20,000 Fossil Fuel Sprinters
Amazon Thumbs Its Nose At Sustainability, Orders 20,000 Conventional Mercedes Sprinter Vans | CleanTechnica
Clearly they have decided smokey pipes over pipe-dreams.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> A Tesla 3 has a Battery Capacity of 80kWh.
> 
> What kind of infrastructure would you need to refill a 80kWh battery in 5-10 Minutes?
> Taking the conservative 10 Minutes there, you would need to deliver 500kW on the connection - nah, I don't think so!



When the new carbon or salt silacate battery reach us after a few years development the charge time will be fast,but that is years away so dont panic and run your diesel untill the gov forces you of the rd and into a old folks home,then we can site and talk drival over a cup of tea


----------



## sparrks (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> When the new carbon or salt silacate battery reach us after a few years development the charge time will be fast,but that is years away so dont panic and run your diesel untill the gov forces you of the rd and into a old folks home,then we can site and talk drival over a cup of tea



The charge time will only be fast if you have the infrastructure capacity to charge it a high rate.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

I am sure faster and faster recharges will happen, but there is a limit to what is feasible.  and 500kW is not.
even if a recharge unit could supply slightly close to that, imagine how heavy the recharge cable will be! More than the carbon fibre van it is connecting to.

The real advancement for reducing road pollution is to transfer long-distance freight to Rail, and have smaller Electric-powered distribution trucks and vans covering a suitable operational radius. 
Long Distance Electric will not happen in this century.


(and I see the question about where all this pollution-free electricity comes from has never been answered by these governments with their fine and dandy deadlines)


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> When the new carbon or salt silacate battery reach us after a few years development the charge time will be fast,but that is years away so dont panic and run your diesel untill the gov forces you of the rd and into a old folks home,then we can site and talk drival over a cup of tea



That's the nail on the head Trev"a few years away"carrot and donkey spring to mind, theirs more to this electric nonsense than meets the eye.
A


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I am sure faster and faster recharges will happen, but there is a limit to what is feasible.  and 500kW is not.
> even if a recharge unit could supply slightly close to that, imagine how heavy the recharge cable will be! More than the carbon fibre van it is connecting to.
> 
> The real advancement for reducing road pollution is to transfer long-distance freight to Rail, and have smaller Electric-powered distribution trucks and vans covering a suitable operational radius.
> Long Distance Electric will not happen in this century.



No long distance,well if no piston engines in 20 years then we will be stuffed and i cannot see a railroad running into tescos.:wacko:


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> No long distance,well if no piston engines in 20 years then we will be stuffed and i cannot see a railroad running into tescos.:wacko:


trev,
I am sure this Electric only deadline has clearly been stated as applying to private cars, not commercials?


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 27, 2018)

martinmartin said:


> That's the nail on the head Trev"a few years away"carrot and donkey spring to mind, theirs more to this electric nonsense than meets the eye.
> A



Correct and if im right then when piston engines stop being sold then i recon we will stretch a  ten years or more stop gap,by that time it will be electric only for sure.
One thing is we will not be told every thing by the gov as folk would panic and sales may slump to fast so stretching it out will avoid money problems.
Now im of to bed to recharge my batterys,night all sleep tight.:sleep-027:


----------



## mark61 (Dec 27, 2018)

When Bertha Benz apparently did the first cross country automoblie journey, she had to go to a pharmacy to get fuel. It wasn't inevitable back then that we would need petrol stations at all. There were electric cars back early on too. There was a fleet of London Taxi's all electric way back in 1900. Alcohol looked like a good fuel too, but appears prohibition put a stop to that.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

How will the petrol and diesel ban work? - BBC News
_
The government's 2040 target only applies to cars and vans.

However in its Road to Zero Strategy published earlier this year it said ultimately it wants a transition to zero emissions across all vehicle types.

The government said it was working with industry to develop an ultra low emission standard for trucks and is introducing a voluntary industry-supported commitment to reduce heavy goods vehicle greenhouse gases by 15% by 2025, from 2015 levels.

It is also working to clean up its bus fleet by investing in new low emission buses and retrofitting emission-reduction technology to existing vehicles. _
HGV Greenhouse gases reduce by 15% - woo hoo!


and on the car front ..... _"Hybrid vehicles, which combine petrol and electric motors, will not be included in the sales ban."_
So there will be a load of Petrol-Electric Hybrids which can go 10 miles on electric just to tick the box.


It's all a pipedream and not achievable, just politicians rubbish.


----------



## Wully (Dec 27, 2018)

Say they do get it right and the motorhomes start filtering through with a battery life that will do 300+ miles  all of us on here that like to wild camp are goosed can’t see them putting charging points in the out of the way places that we bought our vans for visiting you’ll need too park up somewhere you can get a plug in. Things are moving quickly very now and there’s a lot of money at stake for the company who can come up with a solution think the ones too watch will be the vw group they got a real bad rap over the diesel emissions Fiddling thing 80% of there cars are diesel so think they need a good system and quick.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

mark61 said:


> When Bertha Benz apparently did the first cross country automoblie journey, she had to go to a pharmacy to get fuel. It wasn't inevitable back then that we would need petrol stations at all. There were electric cars back early on too. There was a fleet of London Taxi's all electric way back in 1900. Alcohol looked like a good fuel too, but appears prohibition put a stop to that.


Brazil have (or at least used to have) a high number of vehicles burning sugar beet (I think?) alcohol.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 27, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> Say they do get it right and the motorhomes start filtering through with a battery life that will do 300+ miles  all of us on here that like to wild camp are goosed can’t see them putting charging points in the out of the way places that we bought our vans for visiting you’ll need too park up somewhere you can get a plug in. Things are moving quickly very now and there’s a lot of money at stake for the company who can come up with a solution think the ones too watch will be the vw group they got a real bad rap over the diesel emissions Fiddling thing 80% of there cars are diesel so think they need a good system and quick.


considering the number of people here - and generally - running older vehicles, a ban on NEW vehicles will not mean anything until maybe 2055-2060.

I don't know about others, but I doubt I'll be in the market for a new Motorhome in 2060 :raofl:


----------



## Wully (Dec 27, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Brazil have (or at least used to have) a high number of vehicles burning sugar beet (I think?) alcohol.



I was in Cuba during the summer and they run everything on an ethanol concoction bikes and cars and the trucks run on vegetable oil seen a 50s v8 Chevy with a Peugeot 16 Diesel engine running on a type of home made paraffin oil concoction. Place stunk


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 27, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Correct and if im right then when piston engines stop being sold then i recon we will stretch a  ten years or more stop gap,by that time it will be electric only for sure.
> One thing is we will not be told every thing by the gov as folk would panic and sales may slump to fast so stretching it out will avoid money problems.
> Now im of to bed to recharge my batterys,night all sleep tight.:sleep-027:



All electric by 2040, complete nonsense and nothing but a silly goal that the next incoming elected government can dismiss at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 28, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> Say they do get it right and the motorhomes start filtering through with a battery life that will do 300+ miles  all of us on here that like to wild camp are goosed can’t see them putting charging points in the out of the way places that we bought our vans for visiting you’ll need too park up somewhere you can get a plug in. Things are moving quickly very now and there’s a lot of money at stake for the company who can come up with a solution think the ones too watch will be the vw group they got a real bad rap over the diesel emissions Fiddling thing 80% of there cars are diesel so think they need a good system and quick.



You will always be able to tow a generator and charge up overnight . Might make meets a bit noisy though.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 28, 2018)

wildebus said:


> trev,
> I am sure this Electric only deadline has clearly been stated as applying to private cars, not commercials?



No electric trucks,i bet  there will be if gov give tax breaks to truck firms.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 28, 2018)

martinmartin said:


> All electric by 2040, complete nonsense and nothing but a silly goal that the next incoming elected government can dismiss at the drop of a hat.



Maybe thats why we are pulling out of eu so we can change things and keep driving diesel.


----------



## phillybarbour (Dec 28, 2018)

Up to 200 miles, and that’s when batteries are new. Not much use to most people.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 28, 2018)

phillybarbour said:


> Up to 200 miles, and that’s when batteries are new. Not much use to most people.



Most folk here only get as far as portrush which is less than 60 miles or newcastle 40 miles ,then have some tea and watch the sea only to come home after tea time.


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 28, 2018)

Have governments who have announced target dates for electric cars really considered the infrastructure costs and the timescale for infrastructure build.

Working back from the millions of charging points needed to service a whole countriy's electric fleet it is not hard to consider the upgrade of cabling and substations needed to service a small town's needs. Multiply that by all the towns in a country and the requirements for a national power grid could be enormous. Is there enough copper in all the world? 

For example for the French date of 2030 the upgrade would probably have to be starting now. But we do not know what the technology will be and therefore the technical spec for the upgrade - cart before horse? 

Geoff


----------



## colinm (Dec 28, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Have governments who have announced target dates for electric cars really considered the infrastructure costs and the timescale for infrastructure build.
> 
> Working back from the millions of charging points needed to service a whole countriy's electric fleet it is not hard to consider the upgrade of cabling and substations needed to service a small town's needs. Multiply that by all the towns in a country and the requirements for a national power grid could be enormous. Is there enough copper in all the world?
> 
> ...




For home charging the capacity is already just about there, obviously some areas will need a bit of work.
For daytime fast charging there will need to be a lot of work done.

Caught the end of item on the news today on hydrogen trains, I guess this is for branch lines where it is uneconomic to electrify, it was something like 200 or 300 miles from a 15min fill.


----------



## mistericeman (Dec 28, 2018)

runnach said:


> Lots of clever R&D ongoing regarding picking up power while driving, like a tram, except power pickup point is built into road.



We can't even have roads without a pothole every 2 yards..... 

Fat chance we'll be getting inductive charging systems anytime soon....


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 28, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Politicians have announced the demise of the internal combustion engine in a decade or two. But there is no technological basis for that.
> There is no credible replacement so far.
> 
> People talk about the "range" without thinking what that means.
> ...



I agree with 'hairydog's post.

I just want to add into the range discussion that in some countries, e.g. here in Poland, vehicles have to have their headlights on at all times, thus reducing range further.

So far in 2013 18 just over 2000 EVs have sold in Poland - hardly penetration.

Geoff


----------



## mark61 (Dec 28, 2018)

Come 2050 a 90KM range will be all thats needed. You don't think the freedom to drive about willy-nilly in your own little vessel is going to last for ever, do you?


----------



## sparrks (Dec 28, 2018)

runnach said:


> Good thread and interesting replies. Talking car here first, best one I have driven to date, is the BMW i3. Some clever tech in this small vehicle with suicide rear doors. It is rare to have to use vehicle brakes, you just remove foot from pedal, vehicle reduces speed rapidly, while this is all going on, you view the power gauge, to the right, mileage range, to the left, show energy from slowing process going back to batteries. I've seen me going down a steep hill with say hundred mile charge, to reach bottom of hill with say, hundred and three mile charge.
> 
> On the other side of the coin, last month I attended an event at near Edinburgh airport, I was using Nissan small eVan, which is three seater in cab only. Fully charged @ hundred mile range on readout. BTW, trip distance, thirty two mile round trip. Dark and cold on return home, got caught in traffic on Edinburgh shitty bypass, crawling along, it really was horrendous  viewing the miles fall away, it got so bad, I turned heating off, was close to hyperthermia when I got home. I then had to drive to nearest charging post, which is fifteen min walk from house, hour and a half on quick charge was suffice to return to Royal highland centre Ingliston, which does NOT have a charging point, which is shocking.
> 
> ...


Glad you mentioned about the heating, I've been wondering about that for some time - how efficient is it? (electric is the worst way to heat a MH) Is it any good? what type of heater is it?


----------



## Derekoak (Dec 28, 2018)

sparrks said:


> Glad you mentioned about the heating, I've been wondering about that for some time - how efficient is it? (electric is the worst way to heat a MH) Is it any good? what type of heater is it?



I know the nissan leaf uses a heat pump for heating and heated seats in norway


----------



## wildebus (Dec 28, 2018)

Talking about heating, this is quite ironical ....

[video=youtube_share;7NBMq5o_UJU]https://youtu.be/7NBMq5o_UJU[/video]


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 28, 2018)

All charge points free here and if in a car park you get in there for free to,win win situ.


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 28, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> All charge points free here and if in a car park you get in there for free to,win win situ.



That will soon change if electric climbs through 20% 30% 40% of cars. But that is still a big IF.

Geoff


----------



## sparrks (Dec 28, 2018)

runnach said:


> I'm not exactly sure how the heater matrix works, eCars/vans I have driven to date, heat is suffice, but of course, at a price of reduced miles.
> 
> Last Feb, just after the beast from the east cames and went, I had a 80 mile (round trip) business trip to the Scottish borders. On my own, was very cold, I had no choice but heat car, also required to demist front screen. I watched the miles drop away, I knew when I got to destination, the small town has three charging points, one a is a fast charge.
> 
> ...



Scotland has huge potential for renewal energy in particular hydro and wind some already tapped others in the future. The problem that Hairydog was/is making is that at present the infrastructure is not in place and to add a massive amount of fast chargers into the system would easily overload it, slow chargers not so much a problem.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 28, 2018)

Free electric wont last long and why should it. We can't even afford to keep the street lights on. 85% of councils either turn off or dim street lighting.


----------



## colinm (Dec 28, 2018)

sparrks said:


> Scotland has huge potential for renewal energy in particular hydro and wind some already tapped others in the future. The problem that Hairydog was/is making is that at present the infrastructure is not in place and to add a massive amount of fast chargers into the system would easily overload it, slow chargers not so much a problem.




Fast charging is easily catered for, and Tesla already have sorted this with battery banks under the chargers.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 28, 2018)

runnach said:


> I'm not exactly sure how the heater matrix works, eCars/vans I have driven to date, heat is suffice, but of course, at a price of reduced miles.
> 
> Last Feb, just after the beast from the east cames and went, I had a 80 mile (round trip) business trip to the Scottish borders. On my own, was very cold, I had no choice but heat car, also required to demist front screen. I watched the miles drop away, I knew when I got to destination, the small town has three charging points, one a is a fast charge.
> 
> ...



It sounds like a most uncomfortable journey and a throwback to cars of the 60s with poor (and optional) heaters and poor screen demisting.  I wonder how well this 'step forward' will be received? 
"Come and pay £15k extra for this small car and freeze your arse off" - I'm inclined to pass on that one.

The only electric cars I have seen down here in the Scottish Borders is the one that is always parked up in the Jedburgh Car Park at a charging point, plus a Mitsubushi Outlander Hybrid (think that is the model?) that recharges in Kelso.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 28, 2018)

Fazerloz said:


> Free electric wont last long and why should it. We can't even afford to keep the street lights on. 85% of councils either turn off or dim street lighting.



Councils here replace street lamps with led a street at a time as the old units fail,roundabouts are all done last year cutting lecy by over 75%.


----------



## sparrks (Dec 28, 2018)

colinmd said:


> Fast charging is easily catered for, and Tesla already have sorted this with battery banks under the chargers.



How many vehicles can they charge before needing replenishing?


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 28, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Councils here replace street lamps with led a street at a time as the old units fail,roundabouts are all done last year cutting lecy by over 75%.



They do here but save even more by turning them off. Usually between midnight and 6am.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 28, 2018)

Something Tesla have not sorted out ....

1) How to actually run a sustainable business  (they have lost a fortune and are unlikely to be around by the time Electric Cars are commonplace, let alone mandatory

2) How to control the mouth of their Founder (already fined and removed as Telsa Chairman for stupid remarks about the business, and currently being sued for defamation by a Brit he claimed was a pedophile  (but apparently Musk can say anything he likes about anyone if he hasn't met them - some new rule his legal team have made up!))


----------



## colinm (Dec 28, 2018)

sparrks said:


> How many vehicles can they charge before needing replenishing?




Firstly it's not fully deployed, that aside, the battery bank only needs to charge slowly, it means there is less chance of big peaks in demand which seemed to be your concern.

How does the saying go, necessity is the mother of invention, somewhere along the line these things will eventually get sorted, and whilst the proposed laws will speed things up it will not be an overnight problem.


----------



## colinm (Dec 28, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Councils here replace street lamps with led a street at a time as the old units fail,roundabouts are all done last year cutting lecy by over 75%.




We must be on the third generation of LED street lights around here, first ones where straight replacement of lamp with LED, next ones where pupose made lights which looked similar to old street lights, the latest are 6 or 8 ? LEDs which are deeply recessed and produce a 'ribbon' of light down the road, very odd when you first see them.


----------



## sparrks (Dec 28, 2018)

colinmd said:


> *Firstly it's not fully deployed, that aside, the battery bank only needs to charge slowly*, it means there is less chance of big peaks in demand which seemed to be your concern.
> 
> How does the saying go, necessity is the mother of invention, somewhere along the line these things will eventually get sorted, and whilst the proposed laws will speed things up it will not be an overnight problem.



How would these rapid chargers be used? Would they be like a conventional refuelling station with a constant stream of vehicles wanting a charge?  How many vehicles a day? This would I guess be replicated by many tens of thousands. The battery bank will need to recharge at a rate much greater than slowly. I'm not doubting that it won't happen just not as quick as the idiots in power believe.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

All fuel stations being built or upgraded must fit 2 charge points for every fuel pump on site,have i seen one here yet ,no.


----------



## ricc (Dec 29, 2018)

Last night saw James Mays cars of the people on TV.  Hours programme basically on the alternatives to petrol.  Apparently yanks had working battery cars before petrol cars.  With a hundred mile range. ..also bits on jet engines and hydrogen power. And steam

Hydrogen uses a fuel cell under the bonnet to make leccy for the motors.  All technology is tried and tested all it needs is a network of liquid hydrogen fuel stations.... Claimed to be 4 in UK.

Not sure when the  programme was made.


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 29, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> All fuel stations being built or upgraded must fit 2 charge points for every fuel pump on site,have i seen one here yet ,no.



Plugging into electric charging connections, with potential for a spark, in a petrol fuel station - who the feck thought up that idea?


----------



## mistericeman (Dec 29, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Plugging into electric charging connections, with potential for a spark, in a petrol fuel station - who the feck thought up that idea?



I suspect EV charging points MAY be a tad more complex than a couple of bare uninsulated prongs wedged into a socket,especially installed in a petrol station....


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 29, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Plugging into electric charging connections, with potential for a spark, in a petrol fuel station - who the feck thought up that idea?




Nothing uncommon or difficult about using intrinsically safe plugs and sockets. That's if they were even needed as the charging points would no doubt be away from the pumps.


----------



## mistericeman (Dec 29, 2018)

hairydog said:


> It makes no sense to have charging points at petrol stations. More sensible to put them at coffee shops.



They probably said that once upon a time about coffee shops....


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

petrol stations make their money from the overpriced bread and chocolates people nip in to get.  I'm sure having a car taking up a parking space for 30 minutes or more while plugged in and stopping another 5 or so cars coming in to shop during that time will be very welcome to them!
And of course those spaces taken up will mean those filling up with "wet fuel" will not be able to move their car when they do their bit of shopping so queues will build up behind them waiting for a pump to free up.

I wonder what happened to the idea of a business being allowed to decide what they are allowed to sell and what they would prefer not to?


----------



## colinm (Dec 29, 2018)

Gf has used fleet Renault Zoe's a few times, the early ones where not that great, the latest have improved a great deal.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

runnach said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many commentators within this thread, only, have used an eCar or eVan?
> 
> I'll start. Peugeot 12 seater mini bus, small Nissan Van, Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, BMW i3.


Not me  (If I go somewhere I like to get back again  )

But on a more serious note, there is such a big premium on them, it is just not practical for most on cost terms let along distance limitations. 
Of 'your' list, how many have you used privately and without being given access to them as part of your job? And which one do you drive now?


Oh, and possibly I could nearly say yes as my Citroen DS5 was a "microHybrid" with regenerative electrical recharging of the battery, lowering alternator load.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

I don't know if it is still the case, but when Formula E first started, a BMW i3 was used as the Safety Car 


For anyone not familiar, Formula E is an all-electric Single-Seater Racing series.  This season just started is the first one where they have a battery bank with enough power to last the entire race (previously they swapped cars halfway through).  The Top Speed now is around 175MPH (faster than Moto GP I believe?)

(It may not seem it, but I am a fan of electric vehicles.  But I am not a fan of false promises and pie-in-the-sky targets from governments.  If they made the 2040 target (or even a 2030 or 2025 target) Hybrids with a reasonable minimum range on electric of say 100 Miles, I could buy into that, but not all-electric)


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Nothing lke true. LEDs are only marginally more efficient than high pressure sodium. The reasons for fitting them is to get better light pattern, better colour and longer service life, avoiding the cost of replacing bulbs.
> 
> There is no way you can save 75% of electricity by replacing sodium lamps using any technology we have today.



Some here were old tube lights,sodium is being replaced as they were crap lights.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

nicholsong said:


> Plugging into electric charging connections, with potential for a spark, in a petrol fuel station - who the feck thought up that idea?



There is no power transfer until you switch on with a phone apt.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

hairydog said:


> It makes no sense to have charging points at petrol stations. More sensible to put them at coffee shops.



People go into stations to buy sweets fast food cigys and post here,most have a spar or other within,and thats where the money is made.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

runnach said:


> Just out of curiosity, how many commentators within this thread, only, have used an eCar or eVan?
> 
> I'll start. Peugeot 12 seater mini bus, small Nissan Van, Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, BMW i3.



Had a drive in mates vw golf,went like stink.:scared:


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Not me  (If I go somewhere I like to get back again  )
> 
> But on a more serious note, there is such a big premium on them, it is just not practical for most on cost terms let along distance limitations.
> Of 'your' list, how many have you used privately and without being given access to them as part of your job? And which one do you drive now?
> ...


Zero cost,new vw £25.000 cash say keep seven years,now same diesel or petrol using £70 a week on fuel,exact same amount of money plus price of car so double amount,so better by half to go lecy,please do the maths


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I don't know if it is still the case, but when Formula E first started, a BMW i3 was used as the Safety Car
> 
> 
> For anyone not familiar, Formula E is an all-electric Single-Seater Racing series.  This season just started is the first one where they have a battery bank with enough power to last the entire race (previously they swapped cars halfway through).  The Top Speed now is around 175MPH (faster than Moto GP I believe?)
> ...


Prob with hybrid is you still have oil and filters plugs etc to service,no gain.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

runnach said:


> A swipe card is used, Trev.



Yes my mate has both.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Zero cost,new vw £25.000 cash say keep seven years,now same diesel or petrol using £70 a week on fuel,exact same amount of money plus price of car so double amount,so better by half to go lecy,please do the maths



I don't understand.  
#1) I wouldn't pay close to £25,000 for a small hatchback car.  (and neither would you)
#2) I don't spend anywhere close to £70 a week on fuel.

Done the maths - not close to any kind of savings to go electric.




trevskoda said:


> Prob with hybrid is you still have oil and filters plugs etc to service,no gain.


No gain?  getting home in the same vehicle without having to hang around for ages for a recharge - how about that for a gain?  
Last week drove to Glasgow and back - same day. Was parked in-between at a private house with no charging point (obviously) so couldn't recharge in between. 
Was a cold miserable day weather wise so had heating on, electric seats, electric heated steering wheel, electric screen clearing, radio on, sat nav on, 2 phones on charge.  Around 4.5 hours driving.  Which electric car (that is affordable) would do this on a single charge?

Now service costs .... last service was around £110 - annual service.  Have to have a hell of a lot of services to compensate for the massive uplift in cost for a Electric vehicle.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I don't understand.
> #1) I wouldn't pay close to £25,000 for a small hatchback car.  (and neither would you)
> #2) I don't spend anywhere close to £70 a week on fuel.
> 
> ...



Most here buy cars at around 40grand or the next doors would talk about you,some weeks i spend well over £100 on fuel,i do agree on long distance travel a problem as at present but most here only do local say seven miles to work and back,then out at night doing wheel spins and burnouts racing etc,and thats just the grannies :scared:.
On mainland folk do many miles,ie scotland from england ,but nowhere here to go,problem here is big hills and windy roads plus lots of start stop driving which eats fuel big time.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Most here buy cars at around 40grand or the next doors would talk about you,some weeks i spend well over £100 on fuel,i do agree on long distance travel a problem as at present but most here only do local say seven miles to work and back,then out at night doing wheel spins and burnouts racing etc,and thats just the grannies :scared:.
> On mainland folk do many miles,ie scotland from england ,but nowhere here to go,problem here is big hills and windy roads plus lots of start stop driving which eats fuel big time.


If most people in NI spend £40k on a new car and change every two years, they have more money then sense.

NI is very different to the rest of the UK and especially Scotland.  I have to do a 7 mile round trip to go to the nearest shop to get a pint of Milk.
Where a good Hybrid works is dealing with both short and big journeys in the same vehicle. Take the Mitsubushi Outlander ... If I went to get that pint of milk I could do it in 100% all electric mode.  If I wanted to go to Glasgow and back, I could do so in the same car no problem.


----------



## Fazerloz (Dec 29, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I don't know if it is still the case, but when Formula E first started, a BMW i3 was used as the Safety Car
> 
> 
> For anyone not familiar, Formula E is an all-electric Single-Seater Racing series.  This season just started is the first one where they have a battery bank with enough power to last the entire race (previously they swapped cars halfway through).  The Top Speed now is around 175MPH (faster than Moto GP I believe.)


Moto GP this last season were topping 220mph.


----------



## Jeff G (Dec 29, 2018)

Wonder if we will see hydrogen cars given a go.Just been reading about the French built trains that are being rolled out in Germany and in several other countries,including the UK in the not too distant future.About 600 miles per fill


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

wildebus said:


> If most people in NI spend £40k on a new car and change every two years, they have more money then sense.
> 
> NI is very different to the rest of the UK and especially Scotland.  I have to do a 7 mile round trip to go to the nearest shop to get a pint of Milk.
> Where a good Hybrid works is dealing with both short and big journeys in the same vehicle. Take the Mitsubushi Outlander ... If I went to get that pint of milk I could do it in 100% all electric mode.  If I wanted to go to Glasgow and back, I could do so in the same car no problem.



Get the bus or train,only two train tracks here so thats why folk use there cars,yes and moust up to there necks in hock over cars,me being tight have never bought new as so many one go for buttons here.:idea:my last car bought for £10 at seven years old and used for 15 then sold for £200,beat that.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeff G said:


> Wonder if we will see hydrogen cars given a go.Just been reading about the French built trains that are being rolled out in Germany and in several other countries,including the UK in the not too distant future.About 600 miles per fill



Hydrogen is a fantastic fuel to use,problem is the cost of striping it out of atmosphere,more lecy used than would charge a car,these are the probs we are up against.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 29, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Get the bus or train,only two train tracks here so thats why folk use there cars,yes and moust up to there necks in hock over cars,me being tight have never bought new as so many one go for buttons here.:idea:my last car bought for £10 at seven years old and used for 15 then sold for £200,beat that.


Get the Train?  I'll need to get a car to go the 15 miles to the nearest Train Station. very handy.

Trev, you don't seem to get the fact that some places are not suitable for limited range electric cars or public transport.
Why are you not buying £40k cars? don't you like your neighbours?

sold for £190 profit 7 years later.  how much in repairs in the meantime? buy electric and save more, no?


----------



## martinmartin (Dec 30, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Hydrogen is a fantastic fuel to use,problem is the cost of striping it out of atmosphere,more lecy used than would charge a car,these are the probs we are up against.



Isn't hydrogen so difficult to keep contained that you could fill your tank on a Monday and if you didn't run the vehicle for a week or so it would be empty by Saturday, the particals ate so small nothing can contain it.
I m sure l read that in a Kevin Ash article in MCN.


----------



## antiqueman (Dec 30, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> Say they do get it right and the motorhomes start filtering through with a battery life that will do 300+ miles  all of us on here that like to wild camp are goosed can’t see them putting charging points in the out of the way places that we bought our vans for visiting you’ll need too park up somewhere you can get a plug in. Things are moving quickly very now and there’s a lot of money at stake for the company who can come up with a solution think the ones too watch will be the vw group they got a real bad rap over the diesel emissions Fiddling thing 80% of there cars are diesel so think they need a good system and quick.



You dont have a petrol pump in a layby, they don't run out with the engine off.


----------



## Derekoak (Dec 30, 2018)

Looser cruiser said:


> Say they do get it right and the motorhomes start filtering through with a battery life that will do 300+ miles  all of us on here that like to wild camp are goosed can’t see them putting charging points in the out of the way places that we bought our vans for visiting you’ll need too park up somewhere you can get a plug in. Things are moving quickly very now and there’s a lot of money at stake for the company who can come up with a solution think the ones too watch will be the vw group they got a real bad rap over the diesel emissions Fiddling thing 80% of there cars are diesel so think they need a good system and quick.



People like us will have to diy : roof absolutely full of solar panels (think the Martian),  large lpg tank (for cooking:idea, lpg generator in a cupboard just in case


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 30, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Get the Train?  I'll need to get a car to go the 15 miles to the nearest Train Station. very handy.
> 
> Trev, you don't seem to get the fact that some places are not suitable for limited range electric cars or public transport.
> Why are you not buying £40k cars? don't you like your neighbours?
> ...



Di not cost a thing as i have a shed of parts,bits used in 15 years were 1 g/box clutch pads and silencer.
Yes some folk living in the sticks will have problems with charging for long distance runs ,but give it time and things must will get better.
No mission of me spending 40g on any car,my newish one cost £1900 and it took a crow bar to open wallet ,im still realing over spending so much on a tin box.
Move here as bus at end of street to belfast,shops across the road and houses half the price of mainland,makes sense in retirement and lots do it.


----------



## Jeff G (Dec 30, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> Hydrogen is a fantastic fuel to use,problem is the cost of striping it out of atmosphere,more lecy used than would charge a car,these are the probs we are up against.


Just had a look at the Toyota Mirai,66k,residuals not very good I expect considering they only sell 15 vehicles a year


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 30, 2018)

Jeff G said:


> Just had a look at the Toyota Mirai,66k,residuals not very good I expect considering they only sell 15 vehicles a year



All the big car co are putting out new electric models next year,most have dropped diesel,the vw golf was only a test car and the new replacement will be miles ahead with a 200mile range.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 30, 2018)

it's not gonna happen until  a major change in Power Generation occurs.  All electric cars are doing is shifting the energy generation pollution from Roadside to power station.
And there is only just enough power station provision to deal with current demand.  It takes decades to build and commision new electricity power plants.  If there really is going to be electric-only cars for sale from 2040  (and BTW, that is WRONG - Petrol-Electric is not incuded in any proposed ban like I explained, so expect something like 80/20 split between Hybrid and fully-electric) then they better start putting out tenders for new power stations NOW!  I don't recall seeing any?

It's all a load of bull**** and I am surprised you seem to believe it so advidly, Trev.


----------



## colinm (Dec 30, 2018)

wildebus said:


> it's not gonna happen until  a major change in Power Generation occurs.  All electric cars are doing is shifting the energy generation pollution from Roadside to power station.
> And there is only just enough power station provision to deal with current demand.




Part of the reason to use electric is to ease pollution in areas which at present are way above guidelines.

As for capacity, the UK has at present a lot more capacity than needed for most of the time, the problems come at peak times. This is where Tesla's idea of storage batteries near the charge points works.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 30, 2018)

wildebus said:


> it's not gonna happen until  a major change in Power Generation occurs.  All electric cars are doing is shifting the energy generation pollution from Roadside to power station.
> And there is only just enough power station provision to deal with current demand.  It takes decades to build and commision new electricity power plants.  If there really is going to be electric-only cars for sale from 2040  (and BTW, that is WRONG - Petrol-Electric is not incuded in any proposed ban like I explained, so expect something like 80/20 split between Hybrid and fully-electric) then they better start putting out tenders for new power stations NOW!  I don't recall seeing any?
> 
> It's all a load of bull**** and I am surprised you seem to believe it so advidly, Trev.



They are tendering for stations,china are in for such,some people charge from solar but useless in winter for such a high demand i know,but wind and sea power almost constant here.
And for advidly believing well i can only go by what i read and see on the roads,big uptake in electric cars here as most only do shops and school run,also easy for ladies to drive being a automatic ,more take up than men.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 30, 2018)

I would consider one of these as a dual-purpose vehicle - 2014 Smart fortwo E (55kw) Auto Electric Drive - Only 8k Miles and Immaculate  | eBay







Nip-to-the-shops car when at home, and to pull behind Camperbus when touring to use as a local sightseeing car.  
Camper will recharge from hookup and solar during the day while away in car;  EV will recharge from hookup during the night and while being towed.


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 30, 2018)

Those we cars are mainly used at side of roads here for advertising,4 door with big boot is require here,kids shopping , hay pigs  etc,well thats me sorted.


----------



## jagmanx (Dec 30, 2018)

*On the Pisces*



runnach said:


> Years ago I use to do work for British Oceanics, manu'd parts for their Pisces series mini submersibles. I still vividly recall the massive battery banks which powered the various size subs.
> 
> Oh to have them as a power dump for dark nights, possibly keep our wee village going for 24 hours!!



For many year then Terry ?


----------



## jagmanx (Dec 30, 2018)

*Pisces*



runnach said:


> Work or power oor wee village, Phil?



As in fish 
as in drinking like a...

OR WC Fields..." I do not drink water ..Fish copulate in it !"


----------



## invalid (Dec 30, 2018)

Trotter said:


> Eating worms? Not me. I got a pension quote a couple of days ago, I’ve got to live until I’m 87, before I use up MY money, Aviva are holding. I have every intention of costing them money.
> Vans, unwanted and sold for buttons! No, I’ll take the wheels off, put it up on bricks, and live in it, until I’m 90, wrinkly, ok wrinklier, and smelly. Not having smellier.



I take it you'll be living alone then?


----------



## Fisherman (Dec 30, 2018)

I reckon the way forward with current technology is rechargeable hybrid.
This would significantly reduce emissions, and removes the fear of being left without fuel.

Battery technology is nowhere good enough for our needs.

We have hydrogen fuel running trains now in Germany, when the Diesel engine was first developed they could not be made small enough for cars and smaller vehicles. They were only used in ships and submarines. Possibly as time goes by this technology may prove to be the way forward.


----------



## glesgaman (Dec 30, 2018)

*Joke*

This has got to be a wind up, I would not trust the Jerry's ever


----------



## Fisherman (Dec 30, 2018)

glesgaman said:


> This has got to be a wind up, I would not trust the Jerry's ever View attachment 69106



What all 83 million of them:lol-053:


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 31, 2018)

They had electric trams in belfast many moons back,then trolley buses,all done away with,think its time to bring them back.


----------



## Polar Bear (Dec 31, 2018)

colinmd said:


> Carbon-ion is the new kid on the block, but it's not developed enough as yet.
> Carbon ion batteries could charge electric vehicles to full capacity in five minutes, says ZapGo CEO — FreightWaves



Can they make them for aeroplanes or cargo ships and where can they charge the batteries up?


----------



## wildebus (Dec 31, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> They had electric trams in belfast many moons back,then trolley buses,all done away with,think its time to bring them back.


One bad and inconsiderate parker (and there are far far more than 1 around) and a trolley bus is dead in the water as they cannot drive around the obstacle.
even worse with trams.  (why they spent a fortune on the new tram system in Edinburgh is beyond me).


----------



## mistericeman (Dec 31, 2018)

wildebus said:


> One bad and inconsiderate parker (and there are far far more than 1 around) and a trolley bus is dead in the water as they cannot drive around the obstacle.
> even worse with trams.  (why they spent a fortune on the new tram system in Edinburgh is beyond me).



The spent a fortune re-installing trams in my local Greater Manchester area and they have been a mahoosive success... 
Fast, efficient, reliable and cheap to use.

Far better than the outdated bus service.... So much so its being rolled out into the larger area... 
It integrates with bus/train stations so allows for very efficient movement of people.


----------



## wildebus (Dec 31, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> They had electric trams in belfast many moons back,then trolley buses,all done away with,think its time to bring them back.


One bad and inconsiderate parker (and there are far far more than 1 around) and a trolley bus is dead in the water as they cannot drive around the obstacle.
even worse with trams.  (why they spent a fortune on the new tram system in Edinburgh is beyond me).


----------



## colinm (Dec 31, 2018)

Polar Bear said:


> Can they make them for aeroplanes or cargo ships and where can they charge the batteries up?




You can fly around the world without once having to plug in. :dance:
Flying Around the World in a Solar Powered Plane - The Atlantic


----------



## trevskoda (Dec 31, 2018)

Polar Bear said:


> Can they make them for aeroplanes or cargo ships and where can they charge the batteries up?



There is a new ship powered by ingesting plastic from the sea and burning it,so doing two jobs .


----------



## wildebus (Dec 31, 2018)

trevskoda said:


> There is a new ship powered by ingesting plastic from the sea and burning it,so doing two jobs .



Now this is something I don't understand is not done more in Power Stations.  Instead of putting so much to rubbish to landfill, burn the stuff and release that energy instead of burning it.  
Put some real effort into developing effective filtration and trapping - kind of DPFs and Cats for Power Plants - and get clean (or as clean as current ones) power with 'free fuel;


----------



## Deleted member 74361 (Dec 31, 2018)

This thread has concentrated on the policy announcements about only new vehicls being sold after certain dates, 2040 in UK.

Even that policy has referred only to cars and vans, but to date I have not seen a definition of 'van' - has anybody? A 'van' body can be mounted on many chassis of high weights.

I have yet to see any proposals for banning already used diesel vehicles beyond a certain date(s). It therefore seems that currently owned MHs and those bought in the next decade will still be allowed to operate well beyond the declared new policy dates for new vehicles, even assuming those policy desires can be translated into law for technical, infrastructure, funding and legal reasons. 

Another difficulty is that these policies have been announced by a handful on National States, but if there is no widespread agreement, what will happen to diesel vehicles sold outside France after 2030(their target date)? Will they be permitted free movement in France? Tomorrow 2030 will be 11 years hence. They need to start thinking fast.

I suggest that for all the reasons for introducing electrical vehicles that current designs of MHs will still be around for a long time yet.

Geoff


----------



## ricc (Jan 2, 2019)

some interesting reading

Should I buy a diesel car in 2019? | CAR Magazine


----------



## Dowel (Jan 3, 2019)

wildebus said:


> Now this is something I don't understand is not done more in Power Stations.  Instead of putting so much to rubbish to landfill, burn the stuff and release that energy instead of burning it.
> Put some real effort into developing effective filtration and trapping - kind of DPFs and Cats for Power Plants - and get clean (or as clean as current ones) power with 'free fuel;



Waste to Energy (WtE) plants are well established although there probably could/should be more in UK. There is one not far from us in Coventry and the exhaust is clean:
_“The Coventry and Solihull Waste Disposal Company Limited (CSWDC) is an independent waste management company and our main business is extracting energy ( heat and electrical power ) from municipal and commercial solid waste. We have been operating in Coventry since 1975.”_

There is a list of incinerators in UK although I am not sure whether all of them produce useable energy.
List of incinerators in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Also of interest are Combined Heat and Power plants also known as Cogeneration plants. Citigen CHP system has been operating near Smithfeild in the City of London since 1993. IIRC there were much earlier schemes operating in UK but I can’t find a reference to confirm the history.  
When the second phase of Battersea Power Station was built the station opened a combined heat and power system— the Pimlico District Heating Scheme — which piped hot water under the River Thames to a development of about 3,200 flats from July 1951.
Edison had a Combined Heat and Power plant in Manhattan USA from 1882.
Cogeneration - Wikipedia


----------

