# Using a starter battery as 'leisure' power



## mildred (Feb 22, 2010)

Greetings all!

I know that the **choice** of which type to use is highly contentious around here.  but *if* we can put my reasons aside for a moment [1], I'd like to find out the ways to get best results from a starter type battery - probably a second hand one from a breakers that seems OK on a drop test when used for power in the back end of the van.

LED lighting must help - I've already cobbled together strings of LED party lights  so that they work off 12V rather than the originally intended 4.5V and I've already posted about modifying Poundland camping lights. The difference in the current drain for a given amount of ambient light is remarkable.

I've found an LED headlight to be very useful too - localised light for reading or other tasks.

I have a 12V water pump for the sink, but no TV. The fridge needs the electric for the igniter but I don't run it off 12V for cooling! I do **require** use of a net-book which pulls 2.5A at 12V.

The van is hook-up friendly and I have a 4-stage "intelligent" battery charger as well as a ZIG unit. I carry a digital test meter.  I know  the voltages for different states of charge.

How then to maximise (in terms of length of service and effectiveness) use of a "standard" lead acid battery for "leisure" use?
Currently(!) I'm thinking along these lines.


Buy the largest capacity I can afford that will fit in the space available
Fully charge it with the 4-stage before leaving home
Disconnect it from the vehicle charging system
Be paranoid about state of charge and plan to do something at 60%
*Do* something before 50%
Charge using the 4-stage charger  whenever possible rather than blast it from the alternator

What do you all think of this regime? What have I missed?  Where might I be in error? Remember that sorting this makes the difference between using the van and not using the van ...

Regards,

MildRed

[1] Which are quite simple - economy.  I'm down to the point where the extra money to buy a "leisure" battery means I can't go anywhere in the van for several months.


----------



## Telstar (Feb 22, 2010)

Sorry I am not that into electrics.  Except I can add the following,

My first experience of being off grid if you like was 5 days at Easter in a c*****n and it turned out to have a duff old land rover battery instead of a leisure battery.  However, it was no problem, didn't let me down at all.  BUT I wasn't powering a net book. Then again we didn't have LED lighting then.

Assuming that you are not full timing, give it a go.  The worst that can happen is that you lose power to your net book and you have to go to bed early.

If you are moving daily, could you not charge the netbook whilst on the move, or split charge the 'leisure/car battery' at the same time.  Remember, many caravanners get their vans out of storage, drive to a site without electic and run everything including TVs for 2-5 nights without problems.

Jon


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

*Starter battery as leisure*

Myself, I'm using a starter battery as leisure for more than 5 years now.
(I had to since the leisure went to hell on my way and only could find a starter battery).
I asked someone working in battery production: and he said that real deep cycle batteries cost up to 5x the price off a starter battery and some (most manufacturers only make one type (= starter battery) glue a 'leisure' sticker on it and sell it dearer 
Also have a look at: http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-problems/8550-battery-type-4.htmlhttp://


----------



## JG992 (Feb 22, 2010)

Belgian your link as above appears to be broken.......


----------



## mildred (Feb 22, 2010)

Telstar said:


> If you are moving daily, could you not charge the netbook whilst on the move, or split charge the 'leisure/car battery' at the same time.



Good point - the net book has a faglighter connector  so I could charge that off the engine whilst running.  

I've got a split-charge type arrangement at the moment (avoiding the _currently_ pun!)  via the ZIG  - but having read some of the technical material elsewhere on the web I'm starting to have a suspicion that if one has a battery that is being slowly drained and then hit with a heavy charge that might not be the best way of maintaining it.  Sure the engine battery needs that - so that you can start it again within 15 minutes if necessary, but does the leisure battery?  A nights usage of lights, a couple of handwashes and an hour on the net-book; probably only 3AH whereas starting a diesel 2.5L ...

4 Glow plugs: 10 seconds @ 30A
Starter: 4 seconds @ 200A (on a good day!)
Total: ~ 0.3AH

hmm - that's interesting  - had to check that out because it seems so low in AH value - but others have reached similar conclusions. (Though the maths given in a comment on that page is wrong - there are 3600 seconds in an hour, not 360). 

So - a evening/nights usage is far more demanding (of AH)  than starting up the engine in the morning, albeit much gentler on the battery.  I wasn't expecting that. 

MildRed


----------



## n8rbos (Feb 22, 2010)

hi,i too use a starter battery(95amp) i took it off my old convoy ,it had been on her for approx 4yrs and on my present one as a leisure batteryfor 2yrs and still going strong i only use it for my tv/dvd tho'but you should be able to pick a decent one up from breakers for@£10.190amps for @£20but remember the 2nd battery when charged up could be used as a booster to your starter and also you don't have to worry bout the charge dropping beklow 50%.


----------



## defitzi (Feb 22, 2010)

*defitzi*

[*FONT="Arial Narrow"][SIZE="5"[I
UPDAT VER$SION of blog from one of my advice articles way back
dear lady-why do I have the idea u are being very very complique? Reduced to simple terms and reading your post carefully, it seem you do know quite a lot about electricity -you are surely not the "helpless female" type. Like how you seem to understand how and why your zig works and how to use you have a meter. 
The zig SHOULD solve u problems like ensuring u second (or third-or fourth) batteries are always getting maximum full top-up up when engine running  how much it can allocate to a second( or third) battery depends on depends on how far you drive while charging - to charge and replace used electricity for leiaure battery is the same as for motor battery topping-up but which gets how muh depends on Herr Zig! 
Usually, starter motor battery gets fed first!
So then: Leisure batteries may as the sayig goes, take a little longer.
Reduced to simple terms, batteries are simply storage boxes for electricity.
The bigger they are, the more they contain but.... the bigger they are, more charging they will need!
So-batteries which expect a heavy load to shift when starting, need to be capable of producing a big charge to turnover and start an engine. The alternator will then need to be capable of replacing that charge quite quickly. Such (starter) batteries have internally metal plates immersed in acid which hold the electricity:thus, once styarted and the alternator is powering to replace the juice used to get the engine turned and started, if you are driving and using lots of say headlights, heater fan, radio and or whatever, then the alternator will keep replacing the electricity already drained from the battery and also prouuce enough for what is being used by lights and/or acessories!
What these batteries DO NOT like is to be flattened-ike drained of juiice: it bends those internal plates, your see! Bit like squeezing your internal organs- not reccomended by the medical profession!Leisure batteries, however, don't have suchplates: they filled with a special gel which absorbs the electricity and hold it until you call it out!
Tat takes a bit longer to happen -ioe the battery is slower to charge but it does hold on to the electric juice longer (ie it is better for long storage than than plates and acid). And yes- such batteries  CAN be drained of their electricity juice completely without any harm to the gel  (no plates, no acid in there, you see!)
If you leave a fully-charged, in good condition, starter battery in good storage, it will deteriorate only minimally-the key here is "in good condition"!
So which battery? Well for years I have used car batteries for everything; cheaper and they've worked for a time. Often good second hand with a good deal of life left can be acquired. Leisure cost quite a bit more buit may last longer but (which is why I dumped my last one) they will not start my old Hymer if and when the starter battery fails as happened recently in 25deg or so below in Belge.(no jumpers available then but did start couple of weeks later with jumpers).
But I suspect from your post you do know all this-?  So I am at a losst to understand your post-this reply, my opwn summation of batteries and...as I understand it (of course it may well be subject to errors-I'se not infallible so correctors please copy). But also it may however help other readers. Ah so!
No surprise then that the bigger the battery, the more charging it will require- like- long runs if its a leisure battery, which normally (best practice) only charges when and if -ie- after- the main battery is fully charged.
So how much you will have to use depends simply on two things:how your batteries can hold and how much you use before you charge or have to charge) again which will depend on the length of run you will or can drive!
BUT: you CAN charge from 1) hook-up; 2) generator, 3 solar panel or 4windmill (windcharger). Running the engine without moving the vehicle won't do very much nor very quickly -but it will do some so you have enoughtto re-start. But running stationary is not really reccommended (funny I can't exactly remember why but no doubt someone else will).
So:there is a case for scrapyard batteries if they are in good condition- really big 'uns like bus batteries may take a lot of charging but maybe you could do as I one did: keep one in the garage on charge and take one  to see you through a certain period. I used to do that when yacht racing- the outboard engine didn't charge and with two bloody great batteries in the bilge (well waterproofed) I had both ballast and an ample source of power for quite a long time.
Cash wise- I agree: Leisure are overrated (sic)  overpriced but good biz for makers and sellers.  
What WILL make a difference, it the things you use- my old Hymer (36 byers) wiring shot to hell, old style 12 volt sidelight bulbs in lights and for interior lighting- wow  was it thirsty. Dear old "hymer Baby" drank electric juice -I used to say  she was "electroholic". And so, I wired an enonomic whatever long life household 240 voltage new style eco whatever bulb y'know0 11 ww for 60ww or something through my inverter and lo- it slaked battery thirst. Now, old as i am, I can at least see the big print at night!
Night night then.    
*


----------



## Hirohito (Feb 22, 2010)

*Batteries*

Jeezzzzzeus defitzi.....when is your book published  ?


----------



## BedfordMJ (Feb 22, 2010)

defitzi,
Lesisure batteries are not gel batteries. I have 2x110 a/h batteries, they are fine. Leisure batteries on the whole are a con.


----------



## shortcircuit (Feb 22, 2010)

defitzi said:


> [*FONT="Arial Narrow"][SIZE="5"]**
> dear lady-why do I have the idea u are being very very complique? Reduced to simple terms and reading your post carefully, it seem you do know quite a lot about electricity -you are surely not the "helpless female" type. Like how you seem to understand how and why your zig works and how to use you have a meter.
> The zig SHOULD solve u problems like ensuring u second (or third-or fourth) batteries are always getting maximum full top-up up when engine running  how much it can allocate to a second( or third) battery depends on depends on how far you drive while charging - to charge and replace used electricity for leiaure battery isthe same as for motor battery topping-up but which gets how muh depends on Herr Zig!
> Usually , starter motor battery gets fed first!
> ...



""Last edited by defitzi; Today at 06:21 PM. Reason: *tidying *"

Eh?


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

JG992 said:


> Belgian your link as above appears to be broken.......


Maybe this works better; 'PaulC' did put it very clearly:
http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-problems/8550-battery-type-4.html


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

*battery rip off ?*

To put it straight:
A leisure battery (or semi-traction battery, marine battery, - what's in a name-...) should have thicker lead plates being not that vulnerable for distorsion by discharges.
Let's compare:
Normal starter battery:
100% = 12,7V (or more)
90% = 12,6 V
80% = 12,5 V
70% = 12,4 V
60% = 12,3 V
50% = 12,2 V
40% = 12,1 V   
>> Under 60% your starter battery will have problems: plates could bent, shortcircuit > battery gone (after a longer time !)
>> a real leisure (thick plates) can be discharged up to 50%: same result...>
dead.
*Is 10% gain worth a tripple price *??
Bussines as usual ?


----------



## JG992 (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks!  My battery knowledge is improved significantly! 

And i feel ok that I paid 20 quid for an 85ah leisure battery from a breakers..... will feel even better once tried and tested... as somebody has said.... its an early night if not....


----------



## mildred (Feb 22, 2010)

defitzi said:


> the zig SHOULD solve u problems like ensuring u second (or third-or fourth) batteries are always getting maximum full top-up up when engine running  how much it can allocate to a second( or third) battery depends on depends on how far you drive while charging



I know *exactly* how my Zig works - and I'm not impressed.  When set to "Touring" the batteries are simply paralleled.  (Despite my best efforts with heavy wire and good connectors there will be more of a voltage drop from the alternator to the leisure battery compared with that to the starter battery).  This means that the alternator voltage will rise to a level inappropriate to the state of charge of one or other of the batteries.  This wouldn't be so bad if we were dealing with paralleled cells, but we're not - it's a series/parallel arrangement and one (at least) of the cells in the overcharged battery is going to suffer.  

This was behind my thought that perhaps the best way to maintain a starter battery for use in a leisure role was to disconnect it from the zig and charge _properly_ with a clever charger when hooked up.  Hitting it with bulk charge rate if only slightly discharged seems a tad cruel!


defitzi:  _"Lisure batteries, however, don't have such lates: they filled with a special gel which absorbs the electricity and hold it until you call it out!"_

I see somebody else has already given their experience of acid filled leisure batteries - I can only add that I have a dead acid filled one that certainly has plates.  I've also cut open a gell battery and that too had plates ...

defitzi: _So I am at a losst to understand your post_

Whilst I can derive certain things from theory, practical experience and observation is rather important.  Not yet having that experience I asked here, having put down what I have already done and found out.

To restate my original question - what is the best way to maintain a starter battery when used as a leisure supply for long, effective life?


----------



## Nosha (Feb 22, 2010)

Don't forget 20 yrs ago we didn't even have leisure batteries, just secondhand car batteries; or new if feeling VERY flush!

My old Sprite caravan would run all weekend when it was just running lights, radio and water pump off the battery, then we bought a 10" B&W telly and that would drain it in an evening! So it was back to books unless we were on hook-up of just watching the news etc!

So now with LED lighting and LCD TV's those old car batteries should last even longer!

Forget cranking amps as you won't be starting an engine, just buy/get the largest amp hour you can afford/find.


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

Maybe a last word
I keep a starter  battery (= used as leisure), for more than 5 years now, charged up with solar cells, without problems. This is more than the lifetime of a normal ran starter battery. But I never discharge it too deep 
And I have LEDs for most of the interior lighting.  
(In thrift no dutch could beat me ))


----------



## pappajohn (Feb 22, 2010)

*leisure batteries are designed to be cycled (drained to 60% and recharged) many times.....cranking batteries arent.*

*start your engine and it immediately takes a charge from the alternator so is always fully charged.*

*use it as a leisure battery and it may be fine, but not for long unless its permenantly on charge.*


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

pappajohn said:


> use it as a leisure battery and it may be fine, but not for long unless its permenantly on charge


That's what I said Papa: have it thrickle charged by a solar; and it will go on a long time. 
Yours 
Leo


----------



## mildred (Feb 22, 2010)

Belgian said:


> I keep a starter  battery (= used as leisure), [...] charged up with solar cells, without problems.



What is the output of your solar cells?  Are they permanently stuck on the roof or do you have them on  a stand so you can track the sun?

thanks

MildRed


----------



## Belgian (Feb 22, 2010)

mildred said:


> What is the output of your solar cells?  Are they permanently stuck on the roof or do you have them on  a stand so you can track the sun?
> 
> thanks
> 
> MildRed


It is only a 70W cell, mounted flat on the roof. (which means it will never get 100%: clouded, winter sun= too low....) But I never got disapointed, though it will work better in Spain and the Sahara I guess  
It even works (but less) in clouded weather.


----------



## BedfordMJ (Feb 22, 2010)

pappajohn said:


> *leisure batteries are designed to be cycled (drained to 60% and recharged) many times.....cranking batteries arent.*
> 
> *start your engine and it immediately takes a charge from the alternator so is always fully charged.*
> 
> *use it as a leisure battery and it may be fine, but not for long unless its permenantly on charge.*



Most leisure batteries are just usual lead acid batteries.


----------



## mildred (Feb 22, 2010)

BedfordMJ said:


> Most leisure batteries are just usual lead acid batteries.



So - when (_usual_) lead acid batteries are used in a "leisure" role (low, but sustained discharge - which from the figures higher in the thread we can see actually is a greater discharge (in AH) than that experienced during starting) what should be the way to maintain them for longevity and effectiveness?

It's hard to get at this amongst the arguments over what is and isn't a "leisure" battery.

However - one member has reported that continual trickle charge from a solar works well.

Does anybody have anything to support my theoretical suggestion that charging from the alternator when that is also replacing the high current drain (and reforming the plates) of the starter battery might not be ideal?

I'm wondering if perhaps the power to the Zig needs to be switched on 1/2 hour or so after starting, or a current controlling circuit placed in the leisure charging path.  Do later Zigs perhaps do this?  Might a  slightly resistive connection to the leisure battery (through long cabling and lucar connectors) actually be beneficial?


----------



## BedfordMJ (Feb 22, 2010)

Sterling Power Products: Downloads
I'm sure you'll love all the technical info. on the above link.


----------



## pappajohn (Feb 22, 2010)

BedfordMJ said:


> Most leisure batteries are just usual lead acid batteries.


 
*agreed, if you pay £40 for one.*
*£80/£90 and it gets you a proper leisure battery.*

*traction batteries are about the best.*
*maybe 300 to 400ah*

*then golf cart batteries.*

*then UPS batteries.*


----------



## BedfordMJ (Feb 23, 2010)

pappajohn said:


> *agreed, if you pay £40 for one.*
> *£80/£90 and it gets you a proper leisure battery.*
> 
> *traction batteries are about the best.*
> ...




A proper leisure battery? You mean one that will start your engine?


----------



## defitzi (Feb 23, 2010)

*de fitzi*



Hirohito said:


> Jeezzzzzeus defitzi.....when is your book published  ?


 Was.... way way back when i lived in Tangy-by ...
Campbeltown! Bowmore great whiskey


----------



## defitzi (Feb 23, 2010)

see update yes was book once -still may be usefuil neophytes


----------



## defitzi (Feb 23, 2010)

well...yes  but most are gel filled  -should b gel filled otherwise just plate/acid batteries ?


----------



## BedfordMJ (Feb 23, 2010)

defitzi said:


> well...yes  but most are gel filled  -should b gel filled otherwise just plate/acid batteries ?



Yes most leisure batteries are lead/acid batteries not gel filled.


----------



## Deleted member 775 (Feb 24, 2010)

i have no problems realy with using so called ordinary batteries, years ago when we had the old vw splitty you coudent buy leasure batteries so we made do with starter batts. i think its another oh lets jump on the bandwaggon from companies that want to charge a fortune for things for the leasure industry they know some will pay masivly inflated prices for camping and leasure equipment as some of our other members have said, rebadge a normal battery as a leasure one and we will charge 60%more .you only have to see the price of a set of camping pans for instance 30 40 quid then look at a set of cheapo ones from wilkos  less than a tenner and after all they do the same job .


----------



## defitzi (Feb 24, 2010)

Belgian said:


> Maybe this works better; 'PaulC' did put it very clearly:
> http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/motorhome-problems/8550-battery-type-4.html


yes leo u have it !


----------



## defitzi (Feb 24, 2010)

Take good care of it....


----------



## defitzi (Feb 24, 2010)

*defitzi*

cosset it!"


----------

