# The camping and caravan clubs anti wild camping letter.



## Fisherman

Well I got my copy of the camping and caravan clubs magazine this morning, and the steam is still coming out of my ears. Do these people not realise that a large proportion of their members own campers and  motorhomes, and most of them “wild camp”. Scott Currie claims to own a campervan, yet places tuggers and us in the same boat. Not what I would have expected from someone with knowledge of our chosen pastime. I have written to the club, Informing  them that I am seriously considering leaving them, and I am serious. I know they have a bias even a dislike of us, I am not niave. But I wrongly assumed that both sides simply ignored this for each other’s betterment. But for me this totally biased letter has crossed a line. I am not stating that what Scott Currie reports does not happen, but his comments clearly infer that we are all alike. Also his patronising insulting comment that he hoped no members would do this just made matters worse.

Heres my reply, I doubt if they will publish it, they don’t want the dark side to be heard do they now. 


*I wish to complain about the letter you published in your June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping.
His comments were disgraceful and an insult to the vast majority of us who enjoy wild camping in locations were there are no campsites or other forms of accommodation. I have never dumped rubbish anywhere in my life, nor emptied a chemical toilet anywhere other than in the appropriate place. As for parking in front of anyone’s home, I simply would not be interested in doing so, and I think I speak for the vast majority of our community. This letter may cost you members, myself included. I am furious with you for publishing it, and so are many others.
I bought a Motorhome to enjoy the freedom it offers. I also have enjoyed campsites run by yourselves, the caravan and Motorhome club who I am also a member of, and many independent campsites. 
I feel you owe myself and many others an apology for publishing this insulting, narrow minded, ill informed letter, written by someone who does not seem to know the difference between a Motorhome and a caravan.

If I don’t receive an apology I and many others on various forums will seriously consider leaving your organisation, and that would be a shame.

Times are changing many campsites now cater for more or as many Motorhomes than caravans, and like it or not most of these Motorhomers enjoy responsible and considerate wild camping, not Scott Curries version of wild camping.

I would be pleased if you published this letter, but somehow I don’t reckon you want the other side of the story to be told. As for recommending that we always stay in campsites, I think I know why you would recommend that, hence your obvious bias in printing such a letter in the first place.   

Yours sincerely*

And here’s the letter.


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## Wully

Remember me always to give you the correct change.


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## mistericeman

I can't see a great problem with what's written to be honest.... 
Whilst you without doubt DO abide by not dropping rubbish, emptying toilets etc.... 
A lot of us HAVE had experience of witnessing it..... 

As for the 'wild' camping bit... Its not permitted in a motorised vehicle as per the 2003 land reform act (though a blind eye is usually turned). 

Storm in a teacup IMHO.


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## 2cv

mistericeman said:


> I can't see a great problem with what's written to be honest....
> Whilst you without doubt DO abide by not dropping rubbish, emptying toilets etc....
> A lot of us HAVE had experience of witnessing it.....
> 
> As for the 'wild' camping bit... Its not permitted in a motorised vehicle* as per the 2003 land reform act *(though a blind eye is usually turned).
> 
> Storm in a teacup IMHO.



I think that this is confusing wild camping as in a tent to spending the night in a parked vehicle, which may not be on private land.


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## mistericeman

2cv said:


> I think that this is confusing wild camping as in a tent to spending the night in a parked vehicle, which may not be on private land.



As I said... I've always understood that 'wild' camping applied only to none motorised forms... 


The rights exist only if they are exercised responsibly, as specified in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. Access rights apply to any non-motorised activities, including walking, cycling, horse-riding and wild camping. They also allow access on inland water for canoeing, rowing, sailing and swimming.

It's pretty clear, although a blind eye is/was usually turned as long as you weren't acting like some sort of ned.


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## 2cv

mistericeman said:


> As I said... I've always understood that 'wild' camping applied only to none motorised forms...
> 
> 
> The rights exist only if they are exercised responsibly, as specified in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code. Access rights apply to any non-motorised activities, including walking, cycling, horse-riding and wild camping. They also allow access on inland water for canoeing, rowing, sailing and swimming.
> 
> It's pretty clear, although a blind eye is/was usually turned as long as you weren't acting like some sort of ned.



I don’t think that any “blind eyes” are needed if parked and staying overnight in a vehicle. The regulations quoted specifically exclude motor vehicles from the rights, but most are not parking off road so the wild camping rules are not relevant.


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## Biggarmac

Rob Ganley is correct.  He can only state the legal position.  Wild camping in Scotland is defined as camping with a tent  with no motorised transport involved.  What we do is free camping or off grid camping.  We should be mindful of the rights of local people in the places we visit. The CCC help us by allowing members to use some of their campsites to service our units, even when not staying there.  www.campingandcaravanningclub/service-stop-off-points. 
The Scottish Islands have for the last few years been invaded by motorhomers (and caravanners) who have no idea of the proper way to behave.  The letter writer is from one of the islands, as are many of my relatives.  They are all heartedly sick of thoughtless visitors who come with all their food and drink, buy nothing locally and leave mess.  I know that many of us pick up the rubbish left by others, mainly car visitors.  The letter writer is right to ask us to pay for facilities this year as many small businesses in the highlands and islands, as everywhere else, are having a hard time.


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## Fisherman

Reply from CCC

Thanks for taking the time to get in touch about this. I've received this response from the editor:

We're sorry you feel we should not have published this letter, however our Mailbag section exists to give voice to members' opinions on all matters relating to camping and caravanning.

Mr Currie was responding to a photo in the magazine that portrayed what could be interpreted as a motorhome being used for wild camping on the Isle of Skye. Wild camping is clearly a very emotive subject and the debate surrounding it could fill many pages so in order to help provide context to Mr Currie's letter we felt it was important to reply, stating the law in relation to wild camping in Scotland in a motor vehicle for purposes of clarification.

Our organisation cannot condone any activity that would contravene laws, local or national, hence the wording used.

We would be happy to receive direct responses to Scott Currie's letter with a view to publication. These would be subject to editorial scrutiny in the usual way.

Kind Regards,

Emily


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## Fisherman

So we now know that mr Currie lives in Skye, and to be honest I think it adds a new perspective on this debate. I have every sympathy for mr Currie, and I only wish that this had been mentioned in his letter.
Personally speaking I would only venture to Skye in late autumn or early spring. 
The last time I set foot on Skye was before I bought my first van, and I was driving a car. Things were not as bad then as they are now. But the main problem in Skye is the amount of traffic and visitors in relation to what facilities are available. Our neighbour was there last year and had to wait over half an hour to get into the toilet the demand was so great. Skyes main problem is not us, but the amount of traffic on the island with nowhere to park. Parking in passing bays on single track roads is common place.

But my gripe with this letter is not about laws and what we can do, can’t and shouldn't do, it’s about perceptions. Had I read that letter ignorant of us and what we do, I would have assumed that many if not most of us behave this way. That time me is what really matters, not the legal rights and wrongs. We have on many occasions lifted mess left in carparks, on one occasion with no bins, we took it away with us and binned it elsewhere. 

Also I don’t have any figures, but a large percentage  of these Motorhome owners will come from outside the uk, we see them all the time up here, and they nearly all say that they have been to Skye or are heading there. Many are not aware about the lack of facilities. I always recommend not visiting Skye in summer to those I meet. Hopefully one day things will improve with better facilities and less visitors.

We tend to do three nights wilding, then one or two nights in a campsite, that way we are never in such a position as having nowhere to empty our toilet, and grey water.

I think I have calmed down a bit, and I will reply more sensitively to their reply.


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## Fisherman

Wully said:


> Remember me always to give you the correct change.



That’s only if I pay you in the first place Wully


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## Drover

Both the " two " clubs are out pricing themselves with their nightly charges, they only have themselves to blame when people leave
The uk needs to understand the difference between "parking" and "camping"  the way the rest of the world does.
The UK government heavily taxes vehicles in numerous ways and free parking facilities should be available in every town........what are they called ???? I wonder..........
Though it wont happen in the uk as the two same clubs opposed them when the question of aires went through parliament years ago .....
Bugger me, I wonder why........


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## davef

The guy signs of as being from Argyll and Bute - so he wont be from Skye.


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## Fisherman

davef said:


> The guy signs of as being from Argyll and Bute - so he wont be from Skye.



Dave correct, he was referring to a Motorhome on Skye.
I stand corrected on that one. 
Arran is north Ayrshire so it’s not Arran.


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## barge1914

Biggarmac said:


> Rob Ganley is correct.  He can only state the legal position.  Wild camping in Scotland is defined as camping with a tent  with no motorised transport involved.  What we do is free camping or off grid camping.  We should be mindful of the rights of local people in the places we visit. The CCC help us by allowing members to use some of their campsites to service our units, even when not staying there.  www.campingandcaravanningclub/service-stop-off-points.
> The Scottish Islands have for the last few years been invaded by motorhomers (and caravanners) who have no idea of the proper way to behave.  The letter writer is from one of the islands, as are many of my relatives.  They are all heartedly sick of thoughtless visitors who come with all their food and drink, buy nothing locally and leave mess.  I know that many of us pick up the rubbish left by others, mainly car visitors.  The letter writer is right to ask us to pay for facilities this year as many small businesses in the highlands and islands, as everywhere else, are having a hard time.


Yup, whenever those looking after the local loos provide a donation box I am more than happy to put something in it....perhaps more should so we can show our appreciation.


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## Nabsim

I dont think the majority of people with motorhomes/campervans go off grid. From what I see and read its a small minority who do this. The majority of folks with motorhomes use them exactly the same as caravans, load up and drive to a site. Why they ever bought a motorhome I have no idea as they would be much better off with a car and caravan.

If the Scottish law is saying motorised vehicles does that mean you could drop off a caravan and legally stay?

The big two clubs are against anything that means you aren't staying on their sites and always have been so I dont know why anyone would be surprised. I am a member of both in spite of this as I do make use of them when needs must. The biggest enemy for motorhomes and camper vans is other motorhome and campervan owners, its nearly always them that post up about indiscretions


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## vindiboy

Storm in a Tea Cup, the letter was from  a member  who stated his concerns NOT an official of the CCC  everyone is entitled to an opinion   and is entitled to Air it, the fact that the club decided to print it is another matter altogether , I love wild camping  where ever I can and we also use the CCC club in the UK as it is a great way to get around the Country cheaply  using CLs DA Meets and  Temporary Holiday sites  , we do no use Club Sites unless a rally is being held on  one at the time.  I have seen some  Vanners Wild Camping and some of their actions  make me cringe so what must uninitiated members of the public think ? whether Wild Camping is legal or not long may it last I say doing it sensibly is the thing to do, I feel the OP has just drawn more adverse attention to our Hobby.


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## jacquigem

Agree but still glad Fisherman put the wildcamping case forward . We wont win everyone over but clearly need to be seen to behave responsibly


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## Fisherman

I have to write a reply to mr Currie, and they have indicated that subject to editorial scrutiny they will publish it.

Possibly I got my knickers in a twist this morning, but I don’t think that letter did us any favours, and portrayed us in a poor light unfairly In my honest opinion.

Of course there are idiots amongst us, but there are plenty more idiots who don’t own Motorhomes, yet it’s us that solely get a bad press. I have met many good people whilst out Motorhoming, I can’t remember them all, but I can vividly remember the two I did meet who did something I thought was not worthy of us.
I reckon that says something.


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## mariesnowgoose

Fisherman said:


> I have to write a reply to mr Currie, and they have indicated that subject to scrutiny they will publish it.
> 
> Possibly I got my knickers in a twist this morning, but I don’t think that letter did us any favours, and portrayed us in a poor light unfairly.
> 
> Of course there are idiots amongst us, but there are plenty more idiots who don’t own Motorhomes, yet it’s us that solely get a bad press. I have met many good people whilst out Motorhoming, I can’t remember them all, but I can vividly remember the two I did meet who did something I thought was not worthy of us.
> I reckon that says something.



Don't forget that what we do is still a minority activity, best to try and not get sucked into too much navel gazing.
It's not good for our health! 

Also, there are many others (cyclists, walkers, joggers, surfers, water-skiers, rock climbers, boating folk etc. ad infinitum) who have been doing some really stupid things since this pandemic started (and some are still doing stupid things and will continue to do them, unfortunately).

What about the tent campers who went to North Yorkshire this last weekend to 'wild camp' and got splashed all over the news?
They were fined and sent home. Which proves you definitely don't need a campervan to be a d*ck!


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## Deleted member 61691

Fisherman said:


> Well I got my copy of the camping and caravan clubs magazine this morning, and the steam is still coming out of my ears. Do these people not realise that a large proportion of their members own campers and  motorhomes, and most of them “wild camp”. Scott Currie claims to own a campervan, yet places tuggers and us in the same boat. Not what I would have expected from someone with knowledge of our chosen pastime. I have written to the club, Informing  them that I am seriously considering leaving them, and I am serious. I know they have a bias even a dislike of us, I am not niave. But I wrongly assumed that both sides simply ignored this for each other’s betterment. But for me this totally biased letter has crossed a line. I am not stating that what Scott Currie reports does not happen, but his comments clearly infer that we are all alike. Also his patronising insulting comment that he hoped no members would do this just made matters worse.
> 
> Heres my reply, I doubt if they will publish it, they don’t want the dark side to be heard do they now.
> 
> 
> *I wish to complain about the letter you published in your June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping.
> His comments were disgraceful and an insult to the vast majority of us who enjoy wild camping in locations were there are no campsites or other forms of accommodation. I have never dumped rubbish anywhere in my life, nor emptied a chemical toilet anywhere other than in the appropriate place. As for parking in front of anyone’s home, I simply would not be interested in doing so, and I think I speak for the vast majority of our community. This letter may cost you members, myself included. I am furious with you for publishing it, and so are many others.
> I bought a Motorhome to enjoy the freedom it offers. I also have enjoyed campsites run by yourselves, the caravan and Motorhome club who I am also a member of, and many independent campsites.
> I feel you owe myself and many others an apology for publishing this insulting, narrow minded, ill informed letter, written by someone who does not seem to know the difference between a Motorhome and a caravan.
> 
> If I don’t receive an apology I and many others on various forums will seriously consider leaving your organisation, and that would be a shame.
> 
> Times are changing many campsites now cater for more or as many Motorhomes than caravans, and like it or not most of these Motorhomers enjoy responsible and considerate wild camping, not Scott Curries version of wild camping.
> 
> I would be pleased if you published this letter, but somehow I don’t reckon you want the other side of the story to be told. As for recommending that we always stay in campsites, I think I know why you would recommend that, hence your obvious bias in printing such a letter in the first place.
> 
> Yours sincerely*
> 
> And here’s the letter.
> 
> View attachment 81874


Plenty of better clubs around , dump them


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## Tonybvi

I have to say I fully agree with Meg (Biggarmac).  Although I do a heck of a lot of “wildcamping” in Scotland I am fully aware that it is not covered by the so called “right to roam“ act and I make absolutely sure that I do nothing to p**s anybody off and behave as responsibly as I can at all times.  I know that what I am doing is capable of challenge at any time and want to avoid giving motorhomers a bad reputation.  
I think the main problem lies with a lot of folk believing that wild camping in a motorhome / campervan is allowed under the “right to roam”, whereas it is specifically excluded.
i also think that a Rob Ganley‘s response is correct, given his position as editor of a magazine, whether we like it or not.
By all means feel free to wildcamp up here but please behave responsibly in the knowledge that what you are doing is not necessarily 100% legal, so the less reason you give folks to complain the more likely you are not to be challenged.


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## caledonia

People use the Words Right to roam and Wildcamping but it’s Reasonable Access we have over the countryside in Scotland.


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## Tonybvi

The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 (which came into force in 2005) gives everyone rights of access over land and inland water throughout Scotland, subject to specific exclusions set out in the Act and as long as they behave responsibly. These rights are sometimes referred to as 'freedom to roam’.
Specific exclusions include, among other things, “the use of a motorised vehicle”


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## Fisherman

Tonybvi said:


> The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 (which came into force in 2005) gives everyone rights of access over land and inland water throughout Scotland, subject to specific exclusions set out in the Act and as long as they behave responsibly. These rights are sometimes referred to as 'freedom to roam’.
> Specific exclusions include, among other things, “the use of a motorised vehicle”



Toni with all due respect, this has already been brought up.
But Scott Currie and the CCC want you to use campsites, not doing what you are doing now. The vast majority of us are aware of the legal situation, and do exactly what you do yourself. That’s exactly why this letter made me angry. They are having a go at all of us, including your considerate self.


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## 2cv

By staying in our vans overnight we are doing nothing illegal. The confusion arises when the right to roam legislation is mistakenly applied to motorhome use, motor vehicles being specifically excluded from that. If parking up for the night roadside in a layby or in a car park were illegal much of the haulage industry would struggle to operate. CCC like to give the impression that not using a campsite is illegal, which to my mind they should not.


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## Biggarmac

The letter from Mr Currie was critizing an article in a previous magazine that he felt was praising "wildcamping".  The response from the editor was with that in mind.  It might be an idea to send in letters suggesting that we should be asking for more "aires" like the Harris trust ones.  The more letters to the CCC the more likely we are to get our point of view accross.  The CCC do encourage off grid camping with its Temporary holiday sites. (THSs).


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## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> The letter from Mr Currie was critizing an article in a previous magazine that he felt was praising "wildcamping".  The response from the editor was with that in mind.  It might be an idea to send in letters suggesting that we should be asking for more "aires" like the Harris trust ones.  The more letters to the CCC the more likely we are to get our point of view accross.  The CCC do encourage off grid camping with its Temporary holiday sites. (THSs).



Well hopefully I won’t be alone then.
These organisations have to wake up to the fact that thousands of their own members are wild campers. It’s not in their best interests to publish totally biased letters like this one. As I said before this is all about perceptions, and that letter creates the perception that we don’t care about where we visit, or the people who live there. Yes there will be a minority like that, but the vast majority of us are not as described in that letter.


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## Fisherman

As bill (2cv) rightly states there is confusion on here and within the CCC about the land reform act of 2003. This act was primarily designed for the benefit of those who use tents and wished to spend time on private land. An example of this would be the the west highland way from Bearsden to fort William. Many who do this walk carry their tents, or pay Travelite to transport their gear between stops.
The exemption within the act regarding motorised vehicles merely underlines this point. But there is confusion when those pitching tents have used cars to reach their destination.
But nowhere in the land reform act does it state that you cannot park overnight in any place where it is legal to do so. And that would include many places such as roadside parking in streets which could be an annoyance to locals, and should be avoided. Unless there is signage stating that you are not allowed to park at certain times you are free to park anywhere where it is legally permissible.
With regards to parking in Forestry Commission car parks, I can confirm from the horses mouth, that the same applies. Unless they have signage stating otherwise parking overnight on commission land is perfectly legal.

The land reform act did not in any way have any affect on our rights.
It did give more rights to those pitching tents on private land.
The right to park your vehicle where and when legally permissible to do so remained exactly the same after the act.


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## Snapster

I’ve never understood the “ parking in front of somebody house” complaint. If you live on a road you have no rights whatsoever to stop anybody parking anywhere on it ( as long as it’s legally allowed) even if it spoils you view.


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## Fisherman

Snapster said:


> I’ve never understood the “ parking in front of somebody house” complaint. If you live on a road you have no rights whatsoever to stop anybody parking anywhere on it ( as long as it’s legally allowed) even if it spoils you view.



Snapster if we start parking in front of people’s homes guess what would happen. Signs would go up stopping us from doing so. But primarily it’s simply not on, and puts us in a bad light. Also in some new housing estates the owners cannot legally park Motorhomes or caravans, this is stated within their missives. Best that we try not to upset locals, it’s better for us all if we are not perceived as inconsiderate.


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## korky

Snapster said:


> I’ve never understood the “ parking in front of somebody house” complaint. If you live on a road you have no rights whatsoever to stop anybody parking anywhere on it ( as long as it’s legally allowed) even if it spoils you view.


It is bad etiquette,bad manners. Simple as.


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## QFour

We have parked on the Sea Front on the South Coast where it's permitted. If the Council want to put barriers up to stop MHs parking then where do they expect us to park. Have a look at Hunstanton on a busy day in the summer. Lots of MHs parked along the road overlooking the sea with chairs out ( Its a bit like the Germans though you need to be there early ). Council has a massive car park that you have to pay for BUT height barriers. Houses all along the road. We have also parked in Sandbanks ( That POSH place ) gone for a meal at Rick Steins and stayed the night. We usually find the most expensive house and park outside. Pay the meter and leave in the morning.


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## linkshouse

This is a discussion that comes up regularly, and will continue to do so.

We are members of both clubs and like most use a mix of club campsites, private campsites and wild camping.

We don't wild camp to save money, we do so for the peace and quiet and isolation that it provides as we typically wild camp in remote/rural locations. We would never choose to set up camp under the direct view of any housing - why would either of us want to be looking at each other? Also if we arrive at an otherwise suitable location and see other vans there we pass straight by and look for somewhere else (miserable beggars, I know).

Now I know this next bit may be contentious but, doing pretty much all of our travelling in the Scottish Highlands we have noticed a huge rise, like really huge, in the presence of hired motorhomes. Whilst I know that some regular motor-homers may also be guilty, I do wonder if it is these hirers that form the main proportion of people parking inconsiderately, either because they know no better or because they just don't care "this holiday being a one off".

Finally, and off at something of a tangent. Being an island resident myself (Westray) I rather suspect that, in this respect, things got worse for Skye when they put in the bridge. The bother and cost of having to use a ferry to access an island weeds out the more casual visitor. I know that this has been the subject of much discussion here when there have been proposals to link the Orkney Isles to each other.


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## Fisherman

linkshouse said:


> This is a discussion that comes up regularly, and will continue to do so.
> 
> We are members of both clubs and like most use a mix of club campsites, private campsites and wild camping.
> 
> We don't wild camp to save money, we do so for the peace and quiet and isolation that it provides as we typically wild camp in remote/rural locations. We would never choose to set up camp under the direct view of any housing - why would either of us want to be looking at each other? Also if we arrive at an otherwise suitable location and see other vans there we pass straight by and look for somewhere else (miserable beggars, I know).
> 
> Now I know this next bit may be contentious but, doing pretty much all of our travelling in the Scottish Highlands we have noticed a huge rise, like really huge, in the presence of hired motorhomes. Whilst I know that some regular motor-homers may also be guilty, I do wonder if it is these hirers that form the main proportion of people parking inconsiderately, either because they know no better or because they just don't care "this holiday being a one off".
> 
> Finally, and off at something of a tangent. Being an island resident myself (Westray) I rather suspect that, in this respect, things got worse for Skye when they put in the bridge. The bother and cost of having to use a ferry to access an island weeds out the more casual visitor. I know that this has been the subject of much discussion here when there have been proposals to link the Orkney Isles to each other.



Not just putting in the bridge, but removing the tariffs.
But I applaud the snp for doing this.
But it has helped fuel the situation.


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## linkshouse

Just chatting to my other half about tis and she added that TV shows like the "Gordon, Gino and Fred Roadtrip", and "5 Celebrities go Motorhoming" which show them generally misbehaving and having a grand old time at everyone else's expense don't help.


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## Snapster

Fisherman said:


> Snapster if we start parking in front of people’s homes guess what would happen. Signs would go up stopping us from doing so. But primarily it’s simply not on, and puts us in a bad light. Also in some new housing estates the owners cannot legally park Motorhomes or caravans, this is stated within their missives. Best that we try not to upset locals, it’s better for us all if we are not perceived as inconsiderate.



I agree and wouldn’t usually  park in front if any bodies house deliberately if there was an alternative. 
But, this and the emptying of waste / toilets etc, are excuses ( whether they are factual or not) used by people to try and enforce their will on others, usually by complaining to councils and newspapers which ends up with parking bans. 
It’s this busybody attitude that causes restriction to be put in place, usually more than any problems caused the the people they are allegedly complaining about, and it’s this attitude that I am against. 
If councils provided suitable alternative parking instead of just banning people, there would be few problems for these busybodies to complain about.


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## runnach

I think it is important to remember any letter of reply may be published to editorial scrutiny, by the same token Mr Curries letter will have gone through the same process so was the tone and content editorially manipulated prior to publication.

When letters start with not representing us, A phrase used often in this thread , I don’t remember appointing anyone to speak on my behalf , nor have I been consulted or had influence on the content ....

Readers may mistake my comments as negative but really aren’t .. John Thompson one of our own formed an organisation that was structured , purposeful knowing of the law .least of all stupid and it failed mainly down to people saying they would support but when it came to invest time / put money where the mouth is fell flat on its face.

Re the hire market , the one trip ponies who visit Scotland and unwittinhgly let the perception of wildcamping down , it was suggested a “ touring pack” distributed to hire dealers giving guidelines to those that wanted to experience life away from the sites....it was a great idea until it came to paying for it and became just another idea.

Until we have representation that is cohesive including financially little will change and explains perhaps my cynicism writing individual letters in the hope may be published but then what ? The two big clubs in essence are businesses and our proposition does little to enhance income streams.


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## GreggBear

Never understood the argument that if I park my bus in a carpark space, it stops the council making money. If I pay to park my bus in a space, WTF difference does it make to their coffers? Most times I'm charged a premium for being a commercial vehicle or some other excuse, so the actual revenue to them is more than the car I'm " stealing" the space from....


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## Fisherman

channa said:


> I think it is important to remember any letter of reply may be published to editorial scrutiny, by the same token Mr Curries letter will have gone through the same process so was the tone and content editorially manipulated prior to publication.
> 
> When letters start with not representing us, A phrase used often in this thread , I don’t remember appointing anyone to speak on my behalf , nor have I been consulted or had influence on the content ....
> 
> Readers may mistake my comments as negative but really aren’t .. John Thompson one of our own formed an organisation that was structured , purposeful knowing of the law .least of all stupid and it failed mainly down to people saying they would support but when it came to invest time / put money where the mouth is fell flat on its face.
> 
> Re the hire market , the one trip ponies who visit Scotland and unwittinhgly let the perception of wildcamping down , it was suggested a “ touring pack” distributed to hire dealers giving guidelines to those that wanted to experience life away from the sites....it was a great idea until it came to paying for it and became just another idea.
> 
> Until we have representation that is cohesive including financially little will change and explains perhaps my cynicism writing individual letters in the hope may be published but then what ? The two big clubs in essence are businesses and our proposition does little to enhance income streams.



My letter if it is published Andrew will merely be my views, I am not wishing to represent anyones opinions.
But I hope that I am not alone with my anger and frustration, and I hope others will do likewise.

Yes I agree the CCCC is a business, and many of its members are us.
Publishing  a letter that is so biased does nothing for their business, other than to alienate part of their membership.
And that is never good business strategy.

Yes Andrew I would love to see a body who took care of our interests, I would even be willing to assist anyone with the knowledge and skills required to run such a body. But when some of our own side with councils, I wonder what's the point.

Most of us know that we are easy targets for councils, and that we are treated poorly, but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

When if ever we stop being treated like a problem, it seems the only problem, things will change.

So please anyone who wants to write to the CCC please do so, here's the email address I have been using.

The more letters the better.

Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk


----------



## Pauljenny

Yes, 
You think the C&CC is stiff and stuffy..?

The Caravan Club, even after begrudgingly adding an "M" is even worse, IMHO.
Both are run like a branch of the Civil Service.


----------



## caledonia

I think it’s best we keep our heads below the parapet and keep doing as we have been. Start asking for legislation and rights and we’ll be herded into sites or aire type things crammed together and banned from wild parking altogether. IMO.


----------



## maureenandtom

Is wild-camping illegal.   No, it isn't.   It may be – when there is some sort of legislation making it illegal.  A bye-law for example, or a TRO or a PSPO.   But it has to be made illegal.  If there is no law to say it is illegal then it is legal.   No mistake.

There is a fundamental right going back to a landmark ruling by Lord Justice Camden in Entick versus Carrington in 1765 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entick_v_Carrington






We can do what we want if it's not prohibited.   Councils can only do what is permitted. See the difference?

Channa mentioned John Thompson and his work.    We accept unquestioningly the right oc Parliament and Councils to make laws which then prohibit us from certain actions – wild-camping for example.   And then we must abide by the law.  But there must be a law probibiting us.  No law there is no probibition.   We do not need a law to give us permission.  We need a law to deny us permission.

Some of us insist on the other side of the coin.  Councils may only do that which they are permitted to do.  So, to enact a no overnight parking rule, for example, there has to be legislation permitting the council to enact that ruling    There are limits on what the council can do.  For example, to pass a bye-law it must be approved by central government.  To enact a TRO there is legislation limiting Councils' actions and they must follow a laid down procedure.   A council can do only that which it is permitted to do.  The opposite of the private citizen.

John Thompson, and others, attempted to make councils follow laid down rules.  Many councils do not and some of us would take councils to task when they enact local legsilation they have no power to enact – or they fail to follow laid down democratic procedure.

The point I'm making badly is that we must follow the rules.  A council must do the same.  No permission to act – the council must not act.   When it does, and they often do, then we must make our objection to their illegality known – whether we think their ruling is reasonable or not.  Councils must abide by the law.

We need no law to make wild-camping legal; no freedom to roam legislatin to make it legal.   It is legal - except when there is a law prohibiting it.


----------



## 2cv

maureenandtom, you have far more knowledge on these matters than 99% of us on the forum. Thanks for sharing it and helping to dispel the fake news spread by the likes of CCC.


----------



## Snapster

I used to work for a local government. I attended meetings where public safety and leisure were discussed. 
I remember one meeting where a TPO was being proposed along a stretch of road alongside a beach. There was a part of the road that led to a dead end with no houses nearby, just a few beach huts, and campers used to park there, mostly during the day while kite surfing but a few stayed overnight. 
The TPO was being proposed to stop overnight stays, the council member cited complaints from residents who said camper vans were parking outside their houses and leaving a mess ( remember I said there were no houses nearby?) 
Even though I objected and demanded to see evidence of these complaints, none were made available and the motion was quickly passed. 
I would hate to think the councillor had a vested interest in his nearby campsite and used his influence to get the order passed!
This TPO was later extended along the whole of the road.


----------



## vindiboy

hg41hs said:


> Plenty of better clubs around , dump them


  I have been a CCC member for 35 years and will always defend  the   club, my membership is only £17 per year now vintage membership, and I can get reduced  age related  fees  reduction at their   sites, I get my home Insurance via the Club as it gives me 180 days unoccupancy cover  with no conditions, I get our Ferry  tickets and Train tickets  via the club, I use the DA meets frequently  and Holiday Sites and CS sites  when travelling around UK,   I use the Forest sites  run by the CCC too as living near the New Forest  in Hampshire  is a great bonus. no booking generally just turn up using the   full directions printed in the monthly OUT and ABOUT magazine which comes  with a  very good  glossy magazine  camping related, caravans and Motorhomes too,  Weekend DA meets are like Wilding in a way as they are often held on Farm fields with basic toilet dump and water tap, generally take your rubbish home  except sometimes a skip is supplied for this purpose , no requirement to join in with any activities that may be on offer, just do your own thing, no one will bother you, but sometimes it is good to socialise , what's not to like ? 
      I have been a member of various clubs in tandem with the CCC over the years, Hymer Club, Hymer International club, Motorhome Club Club, Caravan Club , and one called Happy Weekenders,  all OK but not a patch on the CCC, so I would be interested to hear  which clubs you think would be  a good substitute to my favourite CCC Please.
   I have  rallied ? with   the Wilders   on here too and really enjoyed  the experience  like minded folks  always a benefit, W C intended to  have a meet at Strawberry Fields  nr . Lymingtom, again this year,, but I think it is cancelled, the CCC also have had Rallies on this Venue in the past, again this is close to where we live and we frequently go to the car boot there,Thanks all,


----------



## yorkslass

Snapster said:


> I used to work for a local government. I attended meetings where public safety and leisure were discussed.
> I remember one meeting where a TPO was being proposed along a stretch of road alongside a beach. There was a part of the road that led to a dead end with no houses nearby, just a few beach huts, and campers used to park there, mostly during the day while kite surfing but a few stayed overnight.
> The TPO was being proposed to stop overnight stays, the council member cited complaints from residents who said camper vans were parking outside their houses and leaving a mess ( remember I said there were no houses nearby?)
> Even though I objected and demanded to see evidence of these complaints, none were made available and the motion was quickly passed.
> I would hate to think the councillor had a vested interest in his nearby campsite and used his influence to get the order passed!
> This TPO was later extended along the whole of the road.


I have no personal knowledge of such goings on, but i have read on here many times ,where councils have been asked to disclose complaints and generally there have been perhaps one or two, certainly not enough to justify a TRO. Vested interests....perish the thought. They will certainly have pressure put on them by campsite owners though, who still don't understand that some people just don't want to spend their time herded like cattle.


----------



## Fisherman

vindiboy said:


> I have been a CCC member for 35 years and will always defend  the   club, my membership is only £17 per year now vintage membership, and I can get reduced  age related  fees  reduction at their   sites, I get my home Insurance via the Club as it gives me 180 days unoccupancy cover  with no conditions, I get our Ferry  tickets and Train tickets  via the club, I use the DA meets frequently  and Holiday Sites and CS sites  when travelling around UK,   I use the Forest sites  run by the CCC too as living near the New Forest  in Hampshire  is a great bonus. no booking generally just turn up using the   full directions printed in the monthly OUT and ABOUT magazine which comes  with a  very good  glossy magazine  camping related, caravans and Motorhomes too,  Weekend DA meets are like Wilding in a way as they are often held on Farm fields with basic toilet dump and water tap, generally take your rubbish home  except sometimes a skip is supplied for this purpose , no requirement to join in with any activities that may be on offer, just do your own thing, no one will bother you, but sometimes it is good to socialise , what's not to like ?
> I have been a member of various clubs in tandem with the CCC over the years, Hymer Club, Hymer International club, Motorhome Club Club, Caravan Club , and one called Happy Weekenders,  all OK but not a patch on the CCC, so I would be interested to hear  which clubs you think would be  a good substitute to my favourite CCC Please.
> I have  rallied ? with   the Wilders   on here too and really enjoyed  the experience  like minded folks  always a benefit, W C intended to  have a meet at Strawberry Fields  nr . Lymingtom, again this year,, but I think it is cancelled, the CCC also have had Rallies on this Venue in the past, again this is close to where we live and we frequently go to the car boot there,Thanks all,



Vindiboy, I would not argue with anything you posted. But they should never have published what can only be described as an anti wild camping letter, full of misinformation, and telling us that they would always recommend we go to campsites. That was a grave error in my honest opinion.


----------



## Moped

The lesson to be learned by the 2 largest camping/caravan clubs is, in future, edit any member trip stories so that any mention of ”wildcamping” is excluded. That keeps things simple for the clubs and no one can then be offended.


The author of the original letter causing concern does mention “get permission if you are not on a site” so he is not anti wildcamping as such, just anti how some go about it, and this may have been overlooked.


----------



## Fisherman

Moped said:


> The lesson to be learned by the 2 largest camping/caravan clubs is, in future, edit any member trip stories so that any mention of ”wildcamping” is excluded. That keeps things simple for the clubs and no one can then be offended.
> 
> 
> The author of the original letter causing concern does mention “get permission if you are not on a site” so he is not anti wildcamping as such, just anti how some go about it, and this may have been overlooked.



He starts of by saying and I quote that the CCC seem to be condoning wild camping, he then goes on to tell us that wild camping is illegal. He then refers to the land reform act, which has nothing to do with what we do. Sorry but it was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, someone who is openly contemptuous of us. The final insult comes from the editor who backs him up on this by stating that wild camping is only legal in Scotland in a tent, and that we should always go to camp sites.

Also I totally disagree that the clubs should never mention wild camping. I find their articles on trips pathetic, particularly the ones carried out by the C&MC, were they never visit anything but their club sites and their CLs. Thousands of members of both clubs own Motorhomes and thousands of them do what we do. We are not there to be ignored, and certainly not there to be insulted by such letters.

You don’t need permission to park in a parking area, or anywhere else you can legally park. And if on rare occasions you do park off grid, how would you know who the land owner is, and how to contact them. As I said this was written by someone who clearly has an axe to grind.


----------



## Moped

Fisherman said:


> He starts of by saying and I quote that the CCC seem to be condoning wild camping, he then goes on to tell us that wild camping is illegal. He then refers to the land reform act, which has nothing to do with what we do. Sorry but it was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, someone who is openly contemptuous of us. The final insult comes from the editor who backs him up on this by stating that wild camping is only legal in Scotland in a tent, and that we should always go to camp sites.
> 
> Also I totally disagree that the clubs should never mention wild camping. I find their articles on trips pathetic, particularly the ones carried out by the C&MC, were they never visit anything but their club sites and their CLs. Thousands of members of both clubs own Motorhomes and thousands of them do what we do. We are not there to be ignored, and certainly not there to be insulted by such letters.
> 
> You don’t need permission to park in a parking area, or anywhere else you can legally park. And if on rare occasions you do park off grid, how would you know who the land owner is, and how to contact them. As I said this was written by someone who clearly has an axe to grind.



Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.

And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.

We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.

We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.


----------



## Fisherman

Moped said:


> Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.
> 
> And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.
> 
> We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.
> 
> We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.



Both he and the editor refer to a section of the land reform act.Wild camping being permitted in Scotland but not in a motorised vehicle.
And sorry but if you are legally entitled to park somewhere with a car overnight, unless there is signage stating otherwise you can do so.
There is no requirement for a blind eye to be used, or to seek any permission.

I have stated many times about being considerate for locals, stating that I would not park in front of someones home etc.
I and the vast majority of us are fully aware of trying to maintain goodwill between us and local people.
His letter seeks to underline only the negative aspects of what we do.
I have never emptied my cassette inappropriately, yet he gives the impression that its common practice for us to do so.
If you cannot see that this was written by someone who is contemptuous of us with an axe to grind,
and backed up by an organisation who only want to sell campsite pitches, then so be it.


----------



## 2cv

Moped said:


> *Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? *To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.
> 
> And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. *Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.*
> 
> We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.
> 
> We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.



The letter writer opens with reference to wild camping legislation that refers to tent camping on private land.
Could you clarify where it is decreed that you need permission to sleep in a vehicle on the public highway.


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## mariesnowgoose

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?

Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.

So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?

I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?


----------



## Fisherman

mariesnowgoose said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?
> 
> Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
> I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
> The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.
> 
> So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?
> 
> I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?



CORRRRRRRRECT


----------



## Moped

mariesnowgoose said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?
> 
> Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
> I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
> The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.
> 
> So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?
> 
> I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?



There is a legal difference between parking and camping. 

Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.


----------



## Fisherman

Moped said:


> There is a legal difference between parking and camping.
> 
> Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.



And any such bylaws or restrictions must be made the subject of signage within these parking areas. And thus I would not park there.
Also by definition an encampment is more related to a group of individuals ie travellers who seek an encampment for a prolonged period of time, involving the use of temporary buildings, or tents. And that is not my interpretation. That’s from the oxford dictionary. I hardly think that an individual or a couple, or an HGV driver would constitute as an encampment, these byelaws you mention are clearly targeting travellers. Marie’s definition was spot on, if you can legally park somewhere you don’t need anyone’s permission.


----------



## groyne

Fisherman said:


> Mr Currie was responding to a photo in the magazine that portrayed _what could be interpreted as_ a motorhome being used for wild camping on the Isle of Skye.



Same old, same old, someone reacting when they don't have all the facts. The motorhomer could just have stopped for a break, or to admire the view (I don't know). If it had just been a car or even an Articulated lorry parked up for the night in the photo, nobody would bat an eyelid.

Is it time to ditch the Wild Camping tag?


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## witzend

And theres always the likes of these people to help their cause to ban wild camping 








						Police wake up visitors in campervans and send them home
					

Police were out on dawn patrol this morning in Newquay




					tinyurl.com


----------



## Fisherman

witzend said:


> And theres always the likes of these people to help their cause to ban wild camping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police wake up visitors in campervans and send them home
> 
> 
> Police were out on dawn patrol this morning in Newquay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinyurl.com



Sadly witzend we have muppets in amongst us.
But that paper could have reported that 99.5% of us did what we were told and abided by the law. But instead we are hung out to dry by a few idiots with no more intelligence than  your average pigeon.


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## vindiboy

HGVs have good sleeping facilities in them of course but they are intended for use in proper Lorry parks not in laybys, I have no problem with HGVS parking in Laybys  and their drivers sleeping there but lets be clear HGV drivers get an allowance to pay for their overnight  sleeps in the  Lorry parks etc but choose not to  as they can then  keep the allowance to enhance their earnings which they deserve as they are not the best paid  people with huge responsibilities, they also know when their driving time is nearing an  end and should  make sure of where they are going to stop over.. car delivery drivers with trade plates also  get  money for them to return to their base by train or other public transport but choose to hitch a lift  to enhance their meagre earnings by keeping this allowance,  too. I was involved in the Transport  dept  Planning at the Ford Plants for some years so I do know what I am talking about here ,


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## Fisherman

2cv said:


> maureenandtom, you have far more knowledge on these matters than 99% of us on the forum. Thanks for sharing it and helping to dispel the fake news spread by the likes of CCC.



I beg to disagree Bill, it’s 100%.


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## Martin P

The problem with wildcamping is we come under attack from the following types of people.
Nosy " what are they doing there" types.
"I cant wait to report someone types:
 I hate it when someone else gets something for nothing types.
Theyve got something I havent types
Im too thick to function without rules so everyone has to follow whatever rules I imagine I have to . Types
Someone is out of place they must be up to no good types.
Im not having that types
I havent got the balls to make a decision so "I think we better say no " types
Ive got a secret agenda but Im not going to admit it types.
Im a young buck and pissing off motorhomers is a good laugh types.


----------



## Fisherman

Martin P said:


> The problem with wildcamping is we come under attack from the following types of people.
> Nosy " what are they doing there" types.
> "I cant wait to report someone types:
> I hate it when someone else gets something for nothing types.
> Theyve got something I havent types
> Im too thick to function without rules so everyone has to follow whatever rules I imagine I have to . Types
> Someone is out of place they must be up to no good types.
> Im not having that types
> I havent got the balls to make a decision so "I think we better say no " types
> Ive got a secret agenda but Im not going to admit it types.
> Im a young buck and pissing off motorhomers is a good laugh types.



Brilliant Martin, bloody brilliant


----------



## antiquesam

Moped said:


> There is a legal difference between parking and camping.
> 
> Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.


If I remember correctly the encampment refers to five or more vans and Priti is trying to reduce this to two, but hasn't yet succeeded.


----------



## Fisherman

Lets see what they publish if any part of this.

*Scott Curries letter regarding wild camping raised many issues.

First let me make myself clear, I detest anyone in a motorhome who behaves poorly, and gives an otherwise friendly well behaved community poor name.
The behaviour of a tiny minority at the start of this crisis, was shameful, but may have been more to do with naivety and lack of clarity from our government than selfish or stupid behaviour.
And since these unfortunate indiscretions our community has behaved well, I only wish the same could be said of others who have put lives at risk with their selfish behaviour.
It's a pity that these same media outlets who reported such poor behaviour also failed to report that 99% of us did not take part in these acts.

But back to the main point ‘wild camping’, a term that seems to generate passionate debate from some who have little or no knowledge of us or what we do.
Scott comments on things that he has witnessed on his Island. Which Island I don’t know, but I am guessing as its in Argyle and Bute it may be Mull, or one of the southern Hebridean islands.
But what Scott fails to acknowledge, or simply is not aware of is that motorhomes make up a tiny minority of vehicles on his Island.
But due to their size they stand out. On my many crossings to the islands, from the 88 vehicles on board the ferry, there are normally only one or two motorhomes.
In winter normally we are the only motorhome on board.

Also it seems that some islanders who for years argued for road tariff equivalent ferry crossings, now complain about its fuller consequences.
You no what they say about having your cake and eating it. Well it seems that some have eaten all of the cake, and now wish to complain about some of the consequences.
When on any Island we buy our provisions locally, and will normally go for a meal or two. And we will spend one night in three in a campsite to replenish water, and empty our cassettes etc.
But we nearly always prefer wild camping, to campsites.

As for parking in front of someones home, I would not thank you for such a position., we always avoid such locations, not only because we are considerate, but because its just not our cup of tea.
But unless road markings or signage state otherwise, there is nothing illegal  regarding parking a car or a motorhome in such a position.

There seems to be confusion regarding the 2003 land reform act (Scotland) which you refer to.
The act had nothing to do with motorhomes or other vehicles, other than to state what I have just stated, that they were not included within the act.
The act was enabled to facilitate freedom for people to pitch tents on private land. It did nothing to remove our rights to park legally were we are permitted too.
Within carparks were there is no signage preventing overnight parking.
Wild camping is not illegal, there are no laws in the UK banning it.
HGV drivers and others have such stop overs, are we going to ban them also.

Scott states he lives in a beautiful island, well Scott I am sure you do, and I and the vast majority of wild campers want it to remain that way, otherwise we would have no reason to return.

On arriving on any island we spend little or no time in the main town.
When we go to Arran we head north, then to its sparely populated west coast.
But we have spent over a thousand pounds on the Island in the past two years, mainly in Arran Outdoors, and Arran Aromatics.
We normally spend two nights wild camping then a night at the seal Shores campsite in Kildonan.
We then spend a further two nights wild camping before heading home.

Wild camping is part of what we do, and will remain so.
Some councils are starting to change their attitudes towards us, viewing us not as a problem, but as an opportunity to help local communities.
Fife council are to be applauded for their forward thinking measures in recent times.
They plan to add motorhome spaces and limited facilities at some of their carparks.
And their facilities at Lochore are a credit to their forward thinking.

The vast majority of wild campers are decent men and women in the winter of their lives.
We have worked hard contributing to our country for decades.
All we ask for is somewhere to park peacefully and preferably out of the way. And if facilities like chemical waste and water are provided I am more than happy to pay for them.
Is that too much to ask for, if so thats a poor reflection on this country of ours.

Finally Scott, you ask if the CCC are condoning wild camping.
Why not when its done properly.
Thousands of their members are wild campers using their motorhomes and tents.
I would be shocked that someone as you with a camper van has never done so.

I have spent some wonderful time in beautiful locations were there are no campsites,
And as far as I am aware I have never upset or annoyed anyone.*


----------



## Martin P

A very good and well thought out letter.
I would like to add this to the debate. 
Campsites suit caravans. You go there for a period of your time and use your car to orbit around and explore the area. Motor homes are more suited to a more "linear"approach.
We drive to a spot, stay a night and move on. 
Campsites are usually remote. Thats fine with a car unhitched from a caravan but my wife is 10 years past a bicycle. Largely we like to visit an area urban or otherwise, spend some time( and money) , tuck ourselves away for the night and then move on. We have been members of the clubs in order to visit 1 night in 4 to fill and empty which is ok.
A motorhome is made to be self sufficient and expecting them to only park in campsites is like expecting an aeroplane to limit itself to taxying along a runway.
Motorhomes just dont need campsites only emptying and filling facilities and I doubt if anyone on here has a problem with paying a reasonable charge to do so
Trying to force motorhomes into sites is small minded and mean spirited .
Good luck with your letter Fisherman, you always put forward a well reasoned argument and you make a good spokesperson. 
Unfortunately I think these things always run into what I consider the worst of all the types. The one who sighs and says"I think we better say no "
Long live wildcamping, its the rebel in us you know


----------



## runnach

Martin P said:


> A very good and well thought out letter.
> I would like to add this to the debate.
> Campsites suit caravans. You go there for a period of your time and use your car to orbit around and explore the area. Motor homes are more suited to a more "linear"approach.
> We drive to a spot, stay a night and move on.
> Campsites are usually remote. Thats fine with a car unhitched from a caravan but my wife is 10 years past a bicycle. Largely we like to visit an area urban or otherwise, spend some time( and money) , tuck ourselves away for the night and then move on. We have been members of the clubs in order to visit 1 night in 4 to fill and empty which is ok.
> A motorhome is made to be self sufficient and expecting them to only park in campsites is like expecting an aeroplane to limit itself to taxying along a runway.
> Motorhomes just dont need campsites only emptying and filling facilities and I doubt if anyone on here has a problem with paying a reasonable charge to do so
> Trying to force motorhomes into sites is small minded and mean spirited .
> Good luck with your letter Fisherman, you always put forward a well reasoned argument and you make a good spokesperson.
> Unfortunately I think these things always run into what I consider the worst of all the types. The one who sighs and says"I think we better say no "
> Long live wildcamping, its the rebel in us you know


I agree horses for courses, having had both and in the case of s motorhome living full time for four and a half years the occasional skirmish with authority it’s a complicated situation

maureentoms post is spot on in England at least , it’s is legal to do what you want unless legislation says you can’t in the form of bylaws traffic restriction orders or the latest to persecute the dreaded public space protection orders which by their nature cover large areas where signage is inadequate.

I stand to be corrected here, but reasonably confident nowhere in the Highway Code nor the road traffic act does it mention any of us havevthe right to park on a public highway..lay-bys we see are an implication no more than that and as mentioned if subject to a rule can be illegal...nothing in writing anywhere.

Many people say wouldn’t park in front of houses etc and all the rest of it which is fair enough remembering the law is as it is not how we want it to be!..a lot of the signage is illegal and has no legal credibility...why does that matter just move on ? Where I share maureentoms viewpoint wholeheartedly is if a local authority erects signafge their needs to be due diligence and legal mileage in its credibility but often there isn’t. It’s not a level playing field and they get away with it.

One good example was the no overnight parking signs that littered the Scottish highlands that had been erected on a whim ...Fisherman did you know it was one of our members that unravelled the truth on that one ? And it wasn’t maureentoms 

That aside does it all matter ? Well I will leave Tom to explain Preston and the Lendal bridge fiasco in York ...the latter £1.5 million of revenue raised with no legal backing you read that right £1.5 million and people had to ask for their money back ! It wasn’t automatic. Law abiding folk riddled out of money because some oil can’t do their job properly ...tooo bloody right I will challenge them


----------



## Fisherman

channa said:


> I stand to be corrected here, but reasonably confident nowhere in the Highway Code nor the road traffic act does it mention any of us havevthe right to park on a public highway..lay-bys we see are an implication no more than that and as mentioned if subject to a rule can be illegal...nothing in writing anywhere.



My understanding Andrew is if a car can park somewhere 24/7 and there is no signage indicating otherwise then so can we. I really don’t understand what all of the confusion is, and were it’s coming from. According to the dvla my vehicle and a car are the same a PLG. I don’t know about Motorhomes above 3.5T.
But I would assume that they would be the same.

The waters have been muddied up here with the land reform act and some quoting its qualifications on motorised vehicles. Some use this as a vehicle for their bias against us, either in ignorance, or simply out of badness.
The land reform act has nothing to do with us, it changed nothing up here for us or for those who drive to such locations in cars.

Those pitching tents don’t tend to pitch were parking is permitted they sometimes do it in locations were there are no roads or access for motorised vehicles. Note the act makes no specific mention of us, simply motorised vehicles.


----------



## Drover

vindiboy said:


> HGVs have good sleeping facilities in them of course but they are intended for use in proper Lorry parks not in laybys, I have no problem with HGVS parking in Laybys  and their drivers sleeping there but lets be clear HGV drivers get an allowance to pay for their overnight  sleeps in the  Lorry parks etc but choose not to  as they can then  keep the allowance to enhance their earnings which they deserve as they are not the best paid  people with huge responsibilities, they also know when their driving time is nearing an  end and should  make sure of where they are going to stop over.. car delivery drivers with trade plates also  get  money for them to return to their base by train or other public transport but choose to hitch a lift  to enhance their meagre earnings by keeping this allowance,  too. I was involved in the Transport  dept  Planning at the Ford Plants for some years so I do know what I am talking about here ,


This is not quite correct.
You get a overnight allowance from some firms but not all firms. How you spend this is up to the individual. 
Most firms will pay the parking cost as it is tax deductible. 
Car delivery drivers do not get paid both ways and make a profit on the return.  Their money is crap and none wants that job.
Your theory is years old and them days of making extra are long gone. Sad as it is.
I was also Involved in transport and gave it up last year though I've kept lgv licence, cpc and operaters licence..
The EU have totally cocked up the haulage industry for both drivers and haulage firms.


----------



## runnach

Fisherman said:


> My understanding Andrew is if a car can park somewhere 24/7 and there is no signage indicating otherwise then so can we. I really don’t understand what all of the confusion is, and were it’s coming from. According to the dvla my vehicle and a car are the same a PLG. I don’t know about Motorhomes above 3.5T.
> But I would assume that they would be the same.
> 
> The waters have been muddied up here with the land reform act and some quoting its qualifications on motorised vehicles. Some use this as a vehicle for their bias against us, either in ignorance, or simply out of badness.
> The land reform act has nothing to do with us, it changed nothing up here for us or for those who drive to such locations in cars.
> 
> Those pitching tents don’t tend to pitch were parking is permitted they sometimes do it in locations were there are no roads or access for motorised vehicles. Note the act makes no specific mention of us, simply motorised vehicles.


You are quite right the land reform act often called the freedom to roam act as far as I can tell doesn’t influence our ability to wildcamp other than motorised vehicles are exempt from its scope 

The plg is simply s taxation class, a motor caravan is the same legal standing as a motor car the difference being on most v5s it has a special body type this was enshrined in eu law about 2012... I used this to challenge Blackpool council a few years ago the principle argumentmy motor caravan enjoyed the same legal status,as a motor car their discrimination was on body type which signage didn’t differentiate. I also questioned the contract law side too considering it was dark the signs weren’t illuminated so by circumstances entered a contract with limited information 

Many question why travellers get away with their transgressions and that is the answer authorities accept no contract entered into thus there can be no breach .

What we can draw from all this is the law is a complete mess in a lot of cases not fit for purpose, it is important for nothing else if only clarity where restrictions do apply they are lawful and introduced through the proper scrutiny processes"...in reality this is our biggest hurdle in reality.


----------



## molly 2

Fisherman said:


> Brilliant Martin, bloody brilliant


Not to mention the site owner types


----------



## peter palance

Fisherman said:


> Well I got my copy of the camping and caravan clubs magazine this morning, and the steam is still coming out of my ears. Do these people not realise that a large proportion of their members own campers and  motorhomes, and most of them “wild camp”. Scott Currie claims to own a campervan, yet places tuggers and us in the same boat. Not what I would have expected from someone with knowledge of our chosen pastime. I have written to the club, Informing  them that I am seriously considering leaving them, and I am serious. I know they have a bias even a dislike of us, I am not niave. But I wrongly assumed that both sides simply ignored this for each other’s betterment. But for me this totally biased letter has crossed a line. I am not stating that what Scott Currie reports does not happen, but his comments clearly infer that we are all alike. Also his patronising insulting comment that he hoped no members would do this just made matters worse.
> 
> Heres my reply, I doubt if they will publish it, they don’t want the dark side to be heard do they now.
> 
> 
> *I wish to complain about the letter you published in your June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping.
> His comments were disgraceful and an insult to the vast majority of us who enjoy wild camping in locations were there are no campsites or other forms of accommodation. I have never dumped rubbish anywhere in my life, nor emptied a chemical toilet anywhere other than in the appropriate place. As for parking in front of anyone’s home, I simply would not be interested in doing so, and I think I speak for the vast majority of our community. This letter may cost you members, myself included. I am furious with you for publishing it, and so are many others.
> I bought a Motorhome to enjoy the freedom it offers. I also have enjoyed campsites run by yourselves, the caravan and Motorhome club who I am also a member of, and many independent campsites.
> I feel you owe myself and many others an apology for publishing this insulting, narrow minded, ill informed letter, written by someone who does not seem to know the difference between a Motorhome and a caravan.
> 
> If I don’t receive an apology I and many others on various forums will seriously consider leaving your organisation, and that would be a shame.
> 
> Times are changing many campsites now cater for more or as many Motorhomes than caravans, and like it or not most of these Motorhomers enjoy responsible and considerate wild camping, not Scott Curries version of wild camping.
> 
> I would be pleased if you published this letter, but somehow I don’t reckon you want the other side of the story to be told. As for recommending that we always stay in campsites, I think I know why you would recommend that, hence your obvious bias in printing such a letter in the first place.
> 
> Yours sincerely*
> 
> And here’s the letter.
> 
> View attachment 81874


sorry but we left be-cause of the at-itude.of the then caravan ciub. oh and we want be going back. its at the top that needs a good kicking. attitude. and they love
money, please let them pass. ok.pj not going back


----------



## peter palance

Nabsim said:


> I dont think the majority of people with motorhomes/campervans go off grid. From what I see and read its a small minority who do this. The majority of folks with motorhomes use them exactly the same as caravans, load up and drive to a site. Why they ever bought a motorhome I have no idea as they would be much better off with a car and caravan.
> 
> If the Scottish law is saying motorised vehicles does that mean you could drop off a caravan and legally stay?
> 
> The big two clubs are against anything that means you aren't staying on their sites and always have been so I dont know why anyone would be surprised. I am a member of both in spite of this as I do make use of them when needs must. The biggest enemy for motorhomes and camper vans is other motorhome and campervan owners, its nearly always them that post up about indiscretions


sorry you to have a problem, get living and you will see why, ok.pj had a caravan be ,ok pj. dont a gree, you can please your self


----------



## peter palance

hg41hs said:


> Plenty of better clubs around , dump them


if they dont represent all the members. why bother. ok.pj.


----------



## peter palance

molly 2 said:


> Not to mention the site owner types


on the council. fingers in the pie. ok pj


----------



## Moped

The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. Their response to the letter overlooked this.

As for the Scottish Land Act right to roam thing excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.

And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.

When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.

The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.

Maybe the CCC responder should review the response and reconsider the position which may not have been made with all the available facts. 

The good news is, after following this topic, I have learnt a lot and am now much happier parking up in Scotland as long as I stay on the public highway and associated verge.


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## Fisherman

Moped said:


> The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. Their response to the letter overlooked this.
> 
> As for the Scottish Land Act right to roam thing excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.
> 
> And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.
> 
> When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.
> 
> The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.
> 
> Maybe the CCC responder should review the response and reconsider the position which may not have been made with all the available facts.
> 
> The good news is, after following this topic, I have learnt a lot and am now much happier parking up in Scotland as long as I stay on the public highway and associated verge.



We all learn every day moped, but in order to learn you have to be prepared to listen. And quoting Churchill, anyone who has never changed their minds, has never changed anything.
The letter is inaccurate, insulting, and clearly written by someone with an axe to grind. A so called camper van owner who talks about caravans wild camping as if it’s common practice. If he does own a camper and has never wild camped he must be the only one I know. As for the CCC they overstepped the mark. Reading that letter we are all braking the law, and his comments were backed up by the editor, unbelievable. Hopefully they will make amends, but they must have angered many of their members, well at least one, this one.


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## antiquesam

Many people seem to think that every motorhome must have overnighted away from a site, but I think there are many who have just changed over from a tow van for convenience with no intention of doing anything other than they did before. I have friends who own motorhomes that wouldn't dream of sleeping off grid. If you ever stop on a club site and get talking to your fellow motorhome members to mention wilding can bring up their blood pressure at the thought of mad axemen roaming around at night and shotgun carrying landowners taking pot shots.


----------



## Fisherman

antiquesam said:


> Many people seem to think that every motorhome must have overnighted away from a site, but I think there are many who have just changed over from a tow van for convenience with no intention of doing anything other than they did before. I have friends who own motorhomes that wouldn't dream of sleeping off grid. If you ever stop on a club site and get talking to your fellow motorhome members to mention wilding can bring up their blood pressure at the thought of mad axemen roaming around at night and shotgun carrying landowners taking pot shots.



Motorhomes I would say the majority I have spoken have done some wild camping Sam. But this guy claims to own a camper van, I reckon the vast majority of them wild camp. Bottom line if the CCC have say 100,000 Motorhome users, they just slapped around 50-60,000 of their members in the face. Hardly good business practice.


----------



## Biggarmac

Write letters to the CCC mag if you want to change things.  Moaning on here will have no effect, but lots of(moderate) letters to the club will be noticed.


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## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> Write letters to the CCC mag if you want to change things.  Moaning on here will have no effect, but lots of(moderate) letters to the club will be noticed.



I have written three times to the CCC, my last email containing my reply to mr Currie. Post 65. I doubt that I will be alone. Or possibly some won’t reply, but just leave without writing.

if you wish to contact them it’s

Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk


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## Biggarmac

Thanks for putting the link up again.  I have had a look at the original article which provoked the letter as well as the reply from the editor.  I will be making a plea for more facilities such as the South Harris Trust and others.  Its no use just complaining you have to put forward explanations and suggestions.


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## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> Thanks for putting the link up again.  I have had a look at the original article which provoked the letter as well as the reply from the editor.  I will be making a plea for more facilities such as the South Harris Trust and others.  Its no use just complaining you have to put forward explanations and suggestions.



So we just ignore a letter that was written by someone clearly with an axe to grind, who is clearly contemptuous of us, who states that what we do is illegal, referring to an act that has nothing to do with us, and creates an impression that we empty our cassettes wherever we want, don’t give a dam about the locals wherever we go, and generally speaking are just a bunch of inconsiderate, selfish people. And an editor who backs up his claim that what we do is illegal, and tells us we should only ever use official campsites. Sorry for me and I am sure many others a line was crossed.

As for putting forward suggestions that’s another issue.
First and before anyone will take notice of any such suggestions, I think it’s important that such a biased letter should be challenged. If it’s not challenged then it will simply be accepted as factual, and an accurate portrayal of us. Which I don’t believe  it to be.


----------



## antiquesam

Fisherman said:


> Motorhomes I would say the majority I have spoken have done some wild camping Sam. But this guy claims to own a camper van, I reckon the vast majority of them wild camp. Bottom line if the CCC have say 100,000 Motorhome users, they just slapped around 50-60,000 of their members in the face. Hardly good business practice.


Like you I'm surprised at the thinking but new vans don't seem to be built for wilding. They have a toilet cassette the size of a p*spot, a fridge that has to be level, an electric hob and 230v outside socket.


----------



## Fisherman

antiquesam said:


> Like you I'm surprised at the thinking but new vans don't seem to be built for wilding. They have a toilet cassette the size of a p*spot, a fridge that has to be level, an electric hob and 230v outside socket.



A home from home Sam


----------



## Biggarmac

Fisherman said:


> So we just ignore a letter that was written by someone clearly with an axe to grind, who is clearly contemptuous of us, who states that what we do is illegal, referring to an act that has nothing to do with us, and creates an impression that we empty our cassettes wherever we want, don’t give a dam about the locals wherever we go, and generally speaking are just a bunch of inconsiderate, selfish people. And an editor who backs up his claim that what we do is illegal, and tells us we should only ever use official campsites. Sorry for me and I am sure many others a line was crossed.
> 
> As for putting forward suggestions that’s another issue.
> First and before anyone will take notice of any such suggestions, I think it’s important that such a biased letter should be challenged. If it’s not challenged then it will simply be accepted as factual, and an accurate portrayal of us. Which I don’t believe  it to be.


No way do we ignore the letter, but to just refute his comments misses an opportunity to put the case for better facilities for motorhomers throughout the UK.  The more letters that go in taking issue with the Scott Currie's letter the better.  However we each need to do it in our out way.


----------



## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> No way do we ignore the letter, but to just refute his comments misses an opportunity to put the case for better facilities for motorhomers throughout the UK.  The more letters that go in taking issue with the Scott Currie's letter the better.  However we each need to do it in our out way.



I would encourage as many as possible to write in to the CCC.
They wrongly gave a platform to mr Currie to take a swipe at us and tarnish our reputation, not to give a balanced view, as I have done in reply.
I only hope that they at least allow us to challenge his totally biased rhetoric.
If not then I will have consider my membership with them.


----------



## Deleted member 34243

dear Fisherman, I honestly believe that after your 28 posts on this subject I have a good understanding of your view.


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## Fisherman

phase3begins said:


> dear Fisherman, I honestly believe that after your 28 posts on this subject I have a good understanding of your view.



You actually sat down and counted them did you
29 now


----------



## antiquesam

I've got nothing to say on the subject but if you reply you can get a nice round number


----------



## caledonia

phase3begins said:


> dear Fisherman, I honestly believe that after your 28 posts on this subject I have a good understanding of your view.


Some people have nothing better to do


----------



## Fisherman

antiquesam said:


> I've got nothing to say on the subject but if you reply you can get a nice round number



I couldn’t resist Sam, I have absolutely no self control on this issue, it’s all consuming   So it’s the big 30 then.


----------



## Moped

Fisherman said:


> I would encourage as many as possible to write in to the CCC.
> They wrongly gave a platform to mr Currie to take a swipe at us and tarnish our reputation, not to give a balanced view, as I have done in reply.
> I only hope that they at least allow us to challenge his totally biased rhetoric.
> If not then I will have consider my membership with them.



My email to the CCC:-

Dear Sirs

I have noted the letter in your June edition of the club magazine from Scott Currie and the editors response. 

The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. The response to the letter overlooked this.

As for the reference to the Land Reform Act in Scotland by the letter writer, and the comment relating to the right to roam excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.

And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.

When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.

The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.

Motorhomes are permitted to enter and leave the Trossachs on a public highway without restriction during the day. The pre booking system only applies to those who wish to park up overnight in one of the car parks in that area which fall within the scope of the park authority. The park authority does state that you do not require a permit to stay in a lay-by overnight as this is part of the public highway, but they do state that this type of stop is to be for short use only and not for extended stays.

Whilst there may be local bylaws and restrictions, there is no national law in Scotland preventing overnight parking or sleeping in a motorised vehicle on a public highway. The same situation applies UK wide. 

Regards


----------



## Fisherman

Moped said:


> My email to the CCC:-
> 
> Dear Sirs
> 
> I have noted the letter in your June edition of the club magazine from Scott Currie and the editors response.
> 
> The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. The response to the letter overlooked this.
> 
> As for the reference to the Land Reform Act in Scotland by the letter writer, and the comment relating to the right to roam excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.
> 
> And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.
> 
> When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.
> 
> The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.
> 
> Motorhomes are permitted to enter and leave the Trossachs on a public highway without restriction during the day. The pre booking system only applies to those who wish to park up overnight in one of the car parks in that area which fall within the scope of the park authority. The park authority does state that you do not require a permit to stay in a lay-by overnight as this is part of the public highway, but they do state that this type of stop is to be for short use only and not for extended stays.
> 
> Whilst there may be local bylaws and restrictions, there is no national law in Scotland preventing overnight parking or sleeping in a motorised vehicle on a public highway. The same situation applies UK wide.
> 
> Regards



Well said moped, hopefully their inbox will be inundated with letters.
Possibly even the penny might drop, that that letter being printed by them was a grave error of judgement for an organisation who have thousands of wild campers as members.
Also moped from October to April you can park overnight in Loch Lomond and the Trossachs without payment or permission, the controls only apply in summer months. Just in case you fancy a winters trip.
Actually when you think about it, the Trossachs are the only part of Scotland where you are not permitted to wild camp without a permit, not the only place you can wild camp as the editor states.

Thank  you moped.


----------



## 2cv

Even in the Trossachs no permit is needed for roadside parking. When the Loch Lomond scheme began, they mistakenly believed that they could charge for layby parking, but had to refund those charged.


----------



## Fisherman

When I sent my first email I got a reply within minutes from Emily at the CCC.
Second time again within minutes a reply stating that they would publish my reply but it may be edited.
Third, telling them how I felt, and replying to mr Curries letter, well still waiting for a reply. I reckon they have had a few letters. Let’s see what is published, if anything.
If they don’t give us the same platform they gave mr Currie, it speaks multitudes.


----------



## Fisherman

The final reply clearing stating my letter would be published.

*Hi Bill,

Thanks for your email and we look forward to receiving, and publishing, your letter.

It's quite right for you to let us know your thoughts - the magazine is for the members - and yes, I agree that it would have been clearer if we had referenced Skye.

Kind Regards,
Emily

On 19/05/2020, 16:03*


----------



## Donsider

antiquesam said:


> I've got nothing to say on the subject but if you reply you can get a nice round number


Grow up .


----------



## Donsider

Fisherman said:


> Lets see what they publish if any part of this.
> 
> *Scott Curries letter regarding wild camping raised many issues.
> 
> First let me make myself clear, I detest anyone in a motorhome who behaves poorly, and gives an otherwise friendly well behaved community poor name.
> The behaviour of a tiny minority at the start of this crisis, was shameful, but may have been more to do with naivety and lack of clarity from our government than selfish or stupid behaviour.
> And since these unfortunate indiscretions our community has behaved well, I only wish the same could be said of others who have put lives at risk with their selfish behaviour.
> It's a pity that these same media outlets who reported such poor behaviour also failed to report that 99% of us did not take part in these acts.
> 
> But back to the main point ‘wild camping’, a term that seems to generate passionate debate from some who have little or no knowledge of us or what we do.
> Scott comments on things that he has witnessed on his Island. Which Island I don’t know, but I am guessing as its in Argyle and Bute it may be Mull, or one of the southern Hebridean islands.
> But what Scott fails to acknowledge, or simply is not aware of is that motorhomes make up a tiny minority of vehicles on his Island.
> But due to their size they stand out. On my many crossings to the islands, from the 88 vehicles on board the ferry, there are normally only one or two motorhomes.
> In winter normally we are the only motorhome on board.
> 
> Also it seems that some islanders who for years argued for road tariff equivalent ferry crossings, now complain about its fuller consequences.
> You no what they say about having your cake and eating it. Well it seems that some have eaten all of the cake, and now wish to complain about some of the consequences.
> When on any Island we buy our provisions locally, and will normally go for a meal or two. And we will spend one night in three in a campsite to replenish water, and empty our cassettes etc.
> But we nearly always prefer wild camping, to campsites.
> 
> As for parking in front of someones home, I would not thank you for such a position., we always avoid such locations, not only because we are considerate, but because its just not our cup of tea.
> But unless road markings or signage state otherwise, there is nothing illegal  regarding parking a car or a motorhome in such a position.
> 
> There seems to be confusion regarding the 2003 land reform act (Scotland) which you refer to.
> The act had nothing to do with motorhomes or other vehicles, other than to state what I have just stated, that they were not included within the act.
> The act was enabled to facilitate freedom for people to pitch tents on private land. It did nothing to remove our rights to park legally were we are permitted too.
> Within carparks were there is no signage preventing overnight parking.
> Wild camping is not illegal, there are no laws in the UK banning it.
> HGV drivers and others have such stop overs, are we going to ban them also.
> 
> Scott states he lives in a beautiful island, well Scott I am sure you do, and I and the vast majority of wild campers want it to remain that way, otherwise we would have no reason to return.
> 
> On arriving on any island we spend little or no time in the main town.
> When we go to Arran we head north, then to its sparely populated west coast.
> But we have spent over a thousand pounds on the Island in the past two years, mainly in Arran Outdoors, and Arran Aromatics.
> We normally spend two nights wild camping then a night at the seal Shores campsite in Kildonan.
> We then spend a further two nights wild camping before heading home.
> 
> Wild camping is part of what we do, and will remain so.
> Some councils are starting to change their attitudes towards us, viewing us not as a problem, but as an opportunity to help local communities.
> Fife council are to be applauded for their forward thinking measures in recent times.
> They plan to add motorhome spaces and limited facilities at some of their carparks.
> And their facilities at Lochore are a credit to their forward thinking.
> 
> The vast majority of wild campers are decent men and women in the winter of their lives.
> We have worked hard contributing to our country for decades.
> All we ask for is somewhere to park peacefully and preferably out of the way. And if facilities like chemical waste and water are provided I am more than happy to pay for them.
> Is that too much to ask for, if so thats a poor reflection on this country of ours.
> 
> Finally Scott, you ask if the CCC are condoning wild camping.
> Why not when its done properly.
> Thousands of their members are wild campers using their motorhomes and tents.
> I would be shocked that someone as you with a camper van has never done so.
> 
> I have spent some wonderful time in beautiful locations were there are no campsites,
> And as far as I am aware I have never upset or annoyed anyone.*


----------



## antiquesam

Donsider said:


> Grow up .


----------



## 2cv

Donsider said:


> Grow up .



Possibly a comment contrary to the usual spirit of the Fun and Friendly Motorhome Community.


----------



## Fisherman

Donsider said:


> Grow up .



Are we not allowed a bit of fun on here Don.
Sam was trying to lighten me up.
And I can assure you that takes a bit of doing once I get my teeth into something.


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Maybe he's made a mistake quite a lot of folk do from time to time - not bothered reading all the posts leading up to the one they've jumped in and commented on, therefore getting the wrong end of the stick and/or seeing the post in isolation and therefore out of context?


----------



## Fisherman

Possibly the editor of the CCC and Scott Currie should read this from the article below relating to the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. I think I will email this to the CCC for their perusal.

“Anyone with any knowledge of road traffic law would have been aware that motorhomers and campervanners have every right to stop and spend the night in a lay-by on a public road, so it beggars belief that the national park authority was not aware of that and simply made up their own laws.”









						Carry On Camping Loch Lomond camping ban turns into a shambles
					

Loch Lomond national park has been accused of “absolute incompetence” after it admitted wrongly charging campervans for staying overnight in…




					www.heraldscotland.com


----------



## mariesnowgoose

Fisherman said:


> Possibly the editor of the CCC and Scott Currie should read this from the article below relating to the Loch Lomond and Trossachs national park. I think I will email this to the CCC for their perusal.
> 
> “Anyone with any knowledge of road traffic law would have been aware that motorhomers and campervanners have every right to stop and spend the night in a lay-by on a public road, so it beggars belief that the national park authority was not aware of that and simply made up their own laws.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carry On Camping Loch Lomond camping ban turns into a shambles
> 
> 
> Loch Lomond national park has been accused of “absolute incompetence” after it admitted wrongly charging campervans for staying overnight in…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldscotland.com



If you read to the bottom of the article it turns out the argument seems to be about 2 *specific* lay-bys on two old stretches of road by Loch Earn.

Interesting article all the same. 

PS. It's dated 2017, don't know if anything has changed with any bye laws or police powers since then?


----------



## Fisherman

mariesnowgoose said:


> If you read to the bottom of the article it turns out the argument seems to be about 2 *specific* lay-bys on two old stretches of road by Loch Earn.
> 
> Interesting article all the same.
> 
> PS. It's dated 2017, don't know if anything has changed with any bye laws or police powers since then?



No nothing has changed as far as I know Marie.
This was set up because of people heading to the national park with tents.
They were damaging trees, leaving mess everywhere and damaging the environment. But they overstepped the mark on parking in carparks and lay-byes.
We go to a carpark in Strathyre were there are signs at the bottom of the carpark, but they are only for folk in tents pitching on the grass. Tents are still completely banned,  but not Motorhomes or campers.


----------



## sparrks

Fisherman said:


> No nothing has changed as far as I know Marie.
> This was set up because of people heading to the national park with tents.
> They were damaging trees, leaving mess everywhere and damaging the environment. But they overstepped the mark on parking in carparks and lay-byes.
> We go to a carpark in Strathyre were there are signs at the bottom of the carpark, but they are only for folk in tents pitching on the grass. Tents are still completely banned,  but not Motorhomes or campers.


Didn't that just push the problem into both Glen Orchy and Etive? I haven't visited for a couple of years so I'm unsure as to the situation.


----------



## Fisherman

sparrks said:


> Didn't that just push the problem into both Glen Orchy and Etive? I haven't visited for a couple of years so I'm unsure as to the situation.



Sorry I don’t know, but the problem was that the Trossachs were handy for the morons who travelled from the central belt, and started fires, set up barbecues, and damaged trees etc . And none of them had Motorhomes.


----------



## caledonia

sparrks said:


> Didn't that just push the problem into both Glen Orchy and Etive? I haven't visited for a couple of years so I'm unsure as to the situation.


Yes a lot of the Buckfast Brigade now go a bit further north with their tents and Glens Orchy and Etive are now strewn with tennants cans and human shite.


----------



## Obanboy666

caledonia said:


> Yes a lot of the Buckfast Brigade now go a bit further north with their tents and Glens Orchy and Etive are now strewn with tennants cans and human shite.


Went down Glen Orchy a couple of years ago intending to overnight on route to Applecross.
Didn’t  stop as i can best describe it as an outside toilet. Shite etc everywhere, nearly put me off wildcamping for life.


----------



## chrsrwlns

vindiboy said:


> HGVs have good sleeping facilities in them of course but they are intended for use in proper Lorry parks not in laybys, I have no problem with HGVS parking in Laybys  and their drivers sleeping there but lets be clear HGV drivers get an allowance to pay for their overnight  sleeps in the  Lorry parks etc but choose not to  as they can then  keep the allowance to enhance their earnings which they deserve as they are not the best paid  people with huge responsibilities, they also know when their driving time is nearing an  end and should  make sure of where they are going to stop over.. car delivery drivers with trade plates also  get  money for them to return to their base by train or other public transport but choose to hitch a lift  to enhance their meagre earnings by keeping this allowance,  too. I was involved in the Transport  dept  Planning at the Ford Plants for some years so I do know what I am talking about here ,


Almost correct, but not quite. I drove artics for a Leeds based transport firm but I didn't get an allowance for overnight parking. I had to pay if I had to stop in a lorry park or motorway service station, and only got the money back when I handed over the receipt. The same applied to food bought but only up to a certain amount. There were also many occasions where I could not park in a nearby lorry park, or even a service station, because of lack of room. Also, where I was driving in an unknown part of the country, or a part that had NO overnight facilities (and there are quite a few of those) I would HAVE to park up in a laybye. When your driving hours are up you have to stop, and if there are no facilities to do so, then a laybye is the only alternative.


----------



## antiquesam

I totally agree. I used to drive a 7.5 tonne twin berth doing mostly European work but in the UK there are very few lorry parks and as most of my work was urgent I would drive for the full drive time before stopping. Yes I got £25 for nights out, but even then that wouldn't pay for a lorry park and a meal and it was restricted to that because HMRC said anything over that was taxable. I'm afraid most people have a very rosy view of a lorry drivers life on the road and yes there is a lot of freedom but driving for 9 or 10 hours in a 15 hour day and then climbing behind the seat to rest for 11 hours isn't always so nice.


----------



## Gary Tucker

Fisherman said:


> Well I got my copy of the camping and caravan clubs magazine this morning, and the steam is still coming out of my ears. Do these people not realise that a large proportion of their members own campers and  motorhomes, and most of them “wild camp”. Scott Currie claims to own a campervan, yet places tuggers and us in the same boat. Not what I would have expected from someone with knowledge of our chosen pastime. I have written to the club, Informing  them that I am seriously considering leaving them, and I am serious. I know they have a bias even a dislike of us, I am not niave. But I wrongly assumed that both sides simply ignored this for each other’s betterment. But for me this totally biased letter has crossed a line. I am not stating that what Scott Currie reports does not happen, but his comments clearly infer that we are all alike. Also his patronising insulting comment that he hoped no members would do this just made matters worse.
> 
> Heres my reply, I doubt if they will publish it, they don’t want the dark side to be heard do they now.
> 
> 
> *I wish to complain about the letter you published in your June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping.
> His comments were disgraceful and an insult to the vast majority of us who enjoy wild camping in locations were there are no campsites or other forms of accommodation. I have never dumped rubbish anywhere in my life, nor emptied a chemical toilet anywhere other than in the appropriate place. As for parking in front of anyone’s home, I simply would not be interested in doing so, and I think I speak for the vast majority of our community. This letter may cost you members, myself included. I am furious with you for publishing it, and so are many others.
> I bought a Motorhome to enjoy the freedom it offers. I also have enjoyed campsites run by yourselves, the caravan and Motorhome club who I am also a member of, and many independent campsites.
> I feel you owe myself and many others an apology for publishing this insulting, narrow minded, ill informed letter, written by someone who does not seem to know the difference between a Motorhome and a caravan.
> 
> If I don’t receive an apology I and many others on various forums will seriously consider leaving your organisation, and that would be a shame.
> 
> Times are changing many campsites now cater for more or as many Motorhomes than caravans, and like it or not most of these Motorhomers enjoy responsible and considerate wild camping, not Scott Curries version of wild camping.
> 
> I would be pleased if you published this letter, but somehow I don’t reckon you want the other side of the story to be told. As for recommending that we always stay in campsites, I think I know why you would recommend that, hence your obvious bias in printing such a letter in the first place.
> 
> Yours sincerely*
> 
> And here’s the letter.
> 
> View attachment 81874


Hi I have a Motorhome for some years now and have hit barrier after barrie, obviously this countr dose not like Motorhomes Or camper vans, every where you go height barriers, signs saying no overnight stopping, no camper vans. As you said the majority of us don’t leave rubbish or mess if anything we pick up other people’s rubbish, ie car drivers who throw it out there window. 
parking in rows on hard stands doesn’t appeal to us, you might as well buy a caravan, we do use sites every few days for for there facilities, and if they are near somewhere we want to visit.
If towns catered for us like they do abroad we would not have to park in odd places. They want our money spent there to boost there economy, but don’t like us parking there.
That’s why we spend most of our time in Europe where we are welcomed and not shunned.
Happy travelling


----------



## RoaminRog

Biggarmac said:


> Rob Ganley is correct.  He can only state the legal position.  Wild camping in Scotland is defined as camping with a tent  with no motorised transport involved.  What we do is free camping or off grid camping.  We should be mindful of the rights of local people in the places we visit. The CCC help us by allowing members to use some of their campsites to service our units, even when not staying there.  www.campingandcaravanningclub/service-stop-off-points.
> The Scottish Islands have for the last few years been invaded by motorhomers (and caravanners) who have no idea of the proper way to behave.  The letter writer is from one of the islands, as are many of my relatives.  They are all heartedly sick of thoughtless visitors who come with all their food and drink, buy nothing locally and leave mess.  I know that many of us pick up the rubbish left by others, mainly car visitors.  The letter writer is right to ask us to pay for facilities this year as many small businesses in the highlands and islands, as everywhere else, are having a hard time.


Your link is not working Meg. Nor can I find any reference to ‘service-stop-off-points’. Any pointers please.


----------



## Fisherman

Gary Tucker said:


> Hi I have a Motorhome for some years now and have hit barrier after barrie, obviously this countr dose not like Motorhomes Or camper vans, every where you go height barriers, signs saying no overnight stopping, no camper vans. As you said the majority of us don’t leave rubbish or mess if anything we pick up other people’s rubbish, ie car drivers who throw it out there window.
> parking in rows on hard stands doesn’t appeal to us, you might as well buy a caravan, we do use sites every few days for for there facilities, and if they are near somewhere we want to visit.
> If towns catered for us like they do abroad we would not have to park in odd places. They want our money spent there to boost there economy, but don’t like us parking there.
> That’s why we spend most of our time in Europe where we are welcomed and not shunned.
> Happy travelling



I completely agree, but some on here reckon that we should simply accept being tolerated, keep our heads down, or even side with councils who put up barriers at the drop of a hat. The fact is we have all worked hard all of our lives and we deserve better. Yes there are a few who don’t behave properly, but they are a small minority, who need sorting out. We are easy targets, and when one of our largest camping organisations the caravan and camping club print such an insulting, ill informed, inaccurate pile of crap about us, backed up by the editor who tells us what we are doing is illegal, and we should only use campsites, enough is enough.

Parking in a parking place overnight is not illegal unless proper signage is erected stating otherwise anywhere in the uk, and we are not braking any laws. There is no law stopping wild camping, but the way things are going in towns it’s in effect heading that way.

The more barriers that are erected, and the more signage put up then the less places that are available combined with an increase in vans can only lead to problems. But these problems are not our making, but the product of narrow minded people with distorted opinions about us, and seemingly being backed up by an organisation that many of us are members of and paying good money to, and that is simply not on.

The more letters they receive the better.

Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk


----------



## Caz

One thing no-one seems to have mentioned, and the reason I often park up rather than use a campsite - in winter there are very few campsites open, particularly in touristy areas where everything is shut from October through to Easter every year. I have often gone to Cornwall in winter as I have relatives there and it's the best time to visit, couldn't find any campsites open. The nearest C&CC site open in winter is in the middle of Devon.


----------



## Fisherman

We


Caz said:


> One thing no-one seems to have mentioned, and the reason I often park up rather than use a campsite - in winter there are very few campsites open, particularly in touristy areas where everything is shut from October through to Easter every year. I have often gone to Cornwall in winter as I have relatives there and it's the best time to visit, couldn't find any campsites open. The nearest C&CC site open in winter is in the middle of Devon.



 Caz good point, I have mentioned this on here myself in the past.


----------



## peter palance

Fisherman said:


> I couldn’t resist Sam, I have absolutely no self control on this issue, it’s all consuming   So it’s the big 30 then.


and me 31 ok.pj.


----------



## jagmanx

RoaminRog said:


> Your link is not working Meg. Nor can I find any reference to ‘service-stop-off-points’. Any pointers please.








						Service Stop-Off Points - The Camping and Caravanning Club
					

For just £7.65, Camping and Caravanning Club members can stop-off and use on-site facilities at a limited number of Club Sites without a booking. Find the list of eligible campsites here.




					www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk


----------



## jagmanx

The above link only appears to show full club sites offering the facility.
I am sure Certified Sites may well allow as well for say £5


----------



## peter palance

mariesnowgoose said:


> If you read to the bottom of the article it turns out the argument seems to be about 2 *specific* lay-bys on two old stretches of road by Loch Earn.
> 
> Interesting article all the same.
> 
> PS. It's dated 2017, don't know if anything has changed with any bye laws or police powers since then?


may be the 2 meter caper that a lot ignore. no .hard luck ok.pj.


----------



## Fisherman

One last point and one I have never seen highlighted on here.

We are not breaking the law by wild camping, there is no law preventing us doing what we enjoy. But I reckon that what we need is not a law that prevents people from being free to enjoy their pastime, but a law that prevents others from preventing us enjoying our pastime. I and others are suspicious of what has been going on recently in more and more locations. Councils need to become more open  and be made accountable and be made to fully justify the erection of barriers and signage  which interfere with our civil liberties.


----------



## Pauljenny

We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
When we wildcamped in  rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
We were never challenged or moved on.
It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.


----------



## peter palance

Pauljenny said:


> We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
> Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
> When we wildcamped in  rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
> The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
> We were never challenged or moved on.
> It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
> But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.


let it rip. one snif and im gone, ok.pj.you no what i mean.mff.


----------



## Fisherman

So please as many as possible spend ten minutes sending an email to the CCC.
Let them know how you feel, the more the better.

Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk


----------



## Animal

Tonybvi said:


> I have to say I fully agree with Meg (Biggarmac).  Although I do a heck of a lot of “wildcamping” in Scotland I am fully aware that it is not covered by the so called “right to roam“ act and I make absolutely sure that I do nothing to p**s anybody off and behave as responsibly as I can at all times.  I know that what I am doing is capable of challenge at any time and want to avoid giving motorhomers a bad reputation.
> I think the main problem lies with a lot of folk believing that wild camping in a motorhome / campervan is allowed under the “right to roam”, whereas it is specifically excluded.
> i also think that a Rob Ganley‘s response is correct, given his position as editor of a magazine, whether we like it or not.
> By all means feel free to wildcamp up here but please behave responsibly in the knowledge that what you are doing is not necessarily 100% legal, so the less reason you give folks to complain the more likely you are not to be challenged.


----------



## Bramble33

Fisherman said:


> Reply from CCC
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to get in touch about this. I've received this response from the editor:
> 
> We're sorry you feel we should not have published this letter, however our Mailbag section exists to give voice to members' opinions on all matters relating to camping and caravanning.
> 
> Mr Currie was responding to a photo in the magazine that portrayed what could be interpreted as a motorhome being used for wild camping on the Isle of Skye. Wild camping is clearly a very emotive subject and the debate surrounding it could fill many pages so in order to help provide context to Mr Currie's letter we felt it was important to reply, stating the law in relation to wild camping in Scotland in a motor vehicle for purposes of clarification.
> 
> Our organisation cannot condone any activity that would contravene laws, local or national, hence the wording used.
> 
> We would be happy to receive direct responses to Scott Currie's letter with a view to publication. These would be subject to editorial scrutiny in the usual way.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Emily


Try telling that to the gypsies, oops sorry, ‘travellers’ who turn up as and when they please, like this weekend, again, - WHAT LOCKDOWN! In caravans, vans, and motorhomes and park up for the night/week (mostly having forced an entry) totally unannounced and illegally and oblivious to all and any bylaws, ownerships, police notices etc etc.


----------



## Bramble33

Unlike travellers who are a complete and total law unto themselves and to whom our policeforce and landowners aren’t worth a thought! And who appear to live totally outside the law of the land!


----------



## runnach

So I get you are a tad anti traveller , so now that is established do you have anything constructive to add to the debate?

If we were to assume wild campers like travellers were an ethnicity can you imagiine. The fun we would face in the courts with unfounded prejudice, . Prejudice is the point of Bills thread, how do we deal with it ?


----------



## barge1914

Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk

* 

*

I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…


Dear Sirs

Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.

He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.

I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.

Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.

Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.

Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.

Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers. 

The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.

Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.

Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.

I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.


Yours Faithfully


----------



## TeamRienza

An excellent and comprehensive email. I think though the C&CC will consider it too long to publish in its entirety and will be interested to see which parts they cherrypick, assuming they publish. We travel in hope is, I think, an appropriate saying for motorhomers in the UK.

Davy


----------



## Bramble33

channa said:


> So I get you are a tad anti traveller , so now that is established do you have anything constructive to add to the debate?
> 
> If we were to assume wild campers like travellers were an ethnicity can you imagiine. The fun we would face in the courts with unfounded prejudice, . Prejudice is the point of Bills thread, how do we deal with it ?


No nothing is “established” Channa, I made no such comment: my comment is that why are the police not jumping upon these ‘travellers’ who very obviously totally ignore the lockdown, whereas you or I out and about in our motorhome (cherish the thought) would be jumped on, as has already happened and been reported on!


----------



## bigbarry

Thanks for posting this issue, I tended to agree with Fisherman then cooled as I read the other comments.  I have been a motor homer for years and also a member of the CCC.  We more often use Certifed sites but our main enjoyment comes from roaming the area and calling to a site late afternoon to see if theres space.  That's where the problem starts as many sites are booked full and there's no room for tourers so we often then look for a wild camping area.  Last year touring the lakes and Cumbria this was really difficult.  I know it's our preference but the freedom of stopping a while longer in places you like or moving on from ones you are not interested in is becoming more difficult. The two occasions I have observed motor homers behaving outside the spirit our group were both hire vehicles which I would class as casual users although one did pick up once I pointed out their error.


----------



## Bramble33

barge1914 said:


> Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…
> 
> 
> Dear Sirs
> 
> Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.
> 
> He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.
> 
> I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.
> 
> Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.
> 
> Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.
> 
> Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.
> 
> Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.
> 
> The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.
> 
> Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.
> 
> Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.
> 
> I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.
> 
> 
> Yours Faithfully


Dear Barge, I could have written your letter myself, and agree thoroughly and entirely with it. The only thing I might have high-lighted a little more is that on the continent, there is rarely a town or city which does not welcome the touring motorhome, almost all of them boasting a site (iers) before or after, but close to, the local village, town or city - a big lesson which could be learned from them by our own councils/gov.


----------



## peter palance

Pauljenny said:


> We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
> Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
> When we wildcamped in  rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
> The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
> We were never challenged or moved on.
> It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
> But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.


you are, then i am 2. keep your chin up. and let it go. all the best, ok.pj. stay a way from the honey pot,


----------



## Biggarmac

Bramble33 said:


> Dear Barge, I could have written your letter myself, and agree thoroughly and entirely with it. The only thing I might have high-lighted a little more is that on the continent, there is rarely a town or city which does not welcome the touring motorhome, almost all of them boasting a site (iers) before or after, but close to, the local village, town or city - a big lesson which could be learned from them by our own councils/gov.


Have you written the above to the CCC mag?  The more letters they get which are not all saying exactly the same thing the more likely the message will get across.  And yes I have sent a letter.


----------



## linkshouse

Biggarmac said:


> Have you written the above to the CCC mag?  The more letters they get which are not all saying exactly the same thing the more likely the message will get across.  And yes I have sent a letter.


I’ve sent one too

Phill


----------



## Fisherman

Well just came back to this thread for the first time in a while.
Just read barge 1914 letter, and I reckon it’s the best I have read yet.
Many thanks for all the pms of support, and to those who sent me their letters.
I know this won’t change much if anything, but Scotts totally biased, ill informed letter, and the pathetic reply from the editor just had to be answered. 
I will tell you what I hope will come from this.

1) The CCC will finally waken up to the fact that the tuggers no longer dominate their organisation. In a few years time Motorhome owners will outnumber caravan owners. They will have to take notice of this, and respond accordingly. Possibly the two large organisations may in future link up with local councils and themselves instal some limited facilities and maintain them. They could charge us more for annual fees than the tuggers in order for us to use them. Just an idea, I don’t know if this would be possible.
2) If as I hope they do publish some of the many comments this will be noted by the other lot, and the penny may drop for them to. They changed their name to include the word Motorhome, but have done absolutely nothing for us since, apart from adding a few drive over grey water drains.
3) Finally I am convinced that our biggest problem is ignorance about us. You could not miss this in Scott’s letter. I hope that this in some small way will help educate people, that we are not inconsiderate law breakers, who don’t give a toss about the locals or the environment they live in. The vast majority I have met out and about and on here are decent folk, who have worked hard all of their lives, and simply want to enjoy the freedom that wild camping gives us all.

Thanks again for all the support, and well done to all who have emailed the CCC.
I reckon we have given them a lot to think about.


----------



## Fisherman

barge1914 said:


> Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…
> 
> 
> Dear Sirs
> 
> Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.
> 
> He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.
> 
> I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.
> 
> Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.
> 
> Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.
> 
> Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.
> 
> Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.
> 
> The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.
> 
> Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.
> 
> Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.
> 
> I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.
> 
> 
> Yours Faithfully



Excellent barge, from start to finish, head and shoulders better than my attempt.
you obviously thought long and hard about this letter, and it shows.
I can’t see them publishing the whole letter, but hopefully if they do publish part, the gist of what you say will be clear.


----------



## barge1914

Fisherman said:


> Excellent barge, from start to finish, head and shoulders better than my attempt.
> you obviously thought long and hard about this letter, and it shows.
> I can’t see them publishing the whole letter, but hopefully if they do publish part, the gist of what you say will be clear.


The other point that might have been good to have brought up is that a fair number of Continental campsites have cottoned on the the numbers of motorhomes and converted a portion of their site area to being a lower cost basic serviced overnight stay facility for motorhomes, perhaps to attract back custom lost to Aires.


----------



## GWAYGWAY

Fisherman said:


> Not just putting in the bridge, but removing the tariffs.
> But I applaud the snp for doing this.
> But it has helped fuel the situation.


Put the tolls back and make them all pay again, they would soon appreciate that we all paid for it in out taxes in the first place.


----------



## Fisherman

GWAYGWAY said:


> Put the tolls back and make them all pay again, they would soon appreciate that we all paid for it in out taxes in the first place.



The snp will never do anything that can be seen as remotely detrimental to island communities. I suggested free tariffs for islanders and a £5 tariff each way for tourists. The money collected being used to improve facilities for ALL who visit the island. But that will never happen. 
I am no supporter of the snp, but I do support their support for island communities with the removal of bridge tolls, and the road tariff equivalent Ferry fares.


----------



## Moped

barge1914 said:


> The other point that might have been good to have brought up is that a fair number of Continental campsites have cottoned on the the numbers of motorhomes and converted a portion of their site area to being a lower cost basic serviced overnight stay facility for motorhomes, perhaps to attract back custom lost to Aires.


In areas of France we visit frequently we have noticed this but only on a small proportion of sites and only off peak. It is a bit of a mystery that more sites do not offer this motorhome concession but we are quite happy to use ACSI sites for €12 or €14 if the location is convenient. At least it means we can get the tables and chairs out and use hook up. During late July and August full tariffs would apply regardless. 

Now that would be the equivalent of £10 or £12 in the UK. If the two big clubs offered that rate for off peak motor homing with that rate limited to stays of 3 nights maximum then their more remote sites would be busier and motorhome sales in the UK really would take off!

Maybe the motorhome manufacturers should start lobbying the clubs?


----------



## SquirrellCook

Moped said:


> motorhome sales in the UK really would take off!


We don't want any more!


----------



## TeamRienza

I have been involved in negotiating with councils in N. Ireland with motorhomecraic.com for the provision of parking and possibly aires. (This was asked about in the Dornoch thread before closure).

I find the attitude of site owners to be very tunnel vision, ie use our site or nothing, including lobbying councils to ban parking. 

What I cannot understand is that for a very small outlay, a limited area at or near their site gates could earn them £10 per night times the number of spaces with the potential to still have income when the main site closes at the end of summer. Aire type provision only all year round. No staff costs and low maintainence, but greed for full site fee and laziness seem to be more important.

I often think of the church halls and community and sports clubs around the country who could boost their income in a similar way. Beneficial for both sides. A few bays marked in their car parks, £10 per night and free night watchmen to keep an eye on their buildings. 

I keep telling my local council and MP that barriers do not solve the problem, it needs creative solutions, because we are a growing industry. Like the i. R. A. “We haven’t gone away you know”.

Davy


----------



## Fisherman

SquirrellCook said:


> We don't want any more!



Per capita we have far fewer motorhomes than Germany and France. It’s not the amount of vans that’s a problem, it’s the amount of barriers and signage that’s the problem.


----------



## antiquesam

Fisherman said:


> Per capita we have far fewer motorhomes than Germany and France. It’s not the amount of vans that’s a problem, it’s the amount of barriers and signage that’s the problem.


Not to mention the size of the country.


----------



## Fisherman

antiquesam said:


> Not to mention the size of the country.



Germany is densely populated, but Europe’s largest country France is more sparsely populated Sam


----------



## antiquesam

Fisherman said:


> Germany is densely populated, but Europe’s largest country France is more sparsely populated Sam


My impression is that most Germans don't holiday in their own country, with its very sparse and chilly coast line, but venture over the border.


----------



## Fisherman

antiquesam said:


> My impression is that most Germans don't holiday in their own country, with its very sparse and chilly coast line, but venture over the border.


1939-45 they did a lot of that


----------



## trevskoda

TeamRienza said:


> I have been involved in negotiating with councils in N. Ireland with motorhomecraic.com for the provision of parking and possibly aires. (This was asked about in the Dornoch thread before closure).
> 
> I find the attitude of site owners to be very tunnel vision, ie use our site or nothing, including lobbying councils to ban parking.
> 
> What I cannot understand is that for a very small outlay, a limited area at or near their site gates could earn them £10 per night times the number of spaces with the potential to still have income when the main site closes at the end of summer. Aire type provision only all year round. No staff costs and low maintainence, but greed for full site fee and laziness seem to be more important.
> 
> I often think of the church halls and community and sports clubs around the country who could boost their income in a similar way. Beneficial for both sides. A few bays marked in their car parks, £10 per night and free night watchmen to keep an eye on their buildings.
> 
> I keep telling my local council and MP that barriers do not solve the problem, it needs creative solutions, because we are a growing industry. Like the i. R. A. “We haven’t gone away you know”.
> 
> Davy


Yep im a cracker to,think Newcastle has started to see the light,Donard park would and should be able to do the job as close to town,5 or so spaces could have been set up at top of town beside the big hotel rather than wanting to set up hight barriers.
Are coast is and should be able to fix night stays the whole way round,simple way is buy a year sub or if coming into out space from oversea buy a £20 ticket to last 2 weeks etc,councils and the folk on the hill to biz in fighting to take notice of revenue to be had which would bring folks here for a good holiday.


----------



## mark61

Wonder if there is a difference in the way MH's are registered as to why the Germans have much greater MH use per capita?

Not saying they don't, but by more than double, that I'm not so sure of.


----------



## Fisherman

mark61 said:


> Wonder if there is a difference in the way MH's are registered as to why the Germans have much greater MH use per capita?
> 
> Not saying they don't, but by more than double, that I'm not so sure of.



I think that in the Europe Motorhomes have always outnumbered caravans. And that’s why their culture and their attitudes towards Motorhomes is totally different from ours, where until recently caravans greatly outnumbered Motorhomes.


----------



## Drover

The industry in the uk needs to take a look at New Zealand when it comes to tourism.
Same size as the uk with a lot less people, most towns have free aires with free water and free waste disposal.
The motorhomes are registered as self contained and get a annual test  if my memory is correct by the motorcaravanners association.
Well I say free, yes its free to motorhomes though costs are recouped by the council through the rates.......and yes business is booming.
along with this there are campsites  ( bugger me you have to pay a little ) with every facility you can think of.
Booking a site in some parts of the uk for two people through camc is upwards of £60 a night.....but dont forget the electric and a few quid for a shower....
£60 plus a night for a bit of dirt.......sod that
Anyway due to the high campsite costs people take everything they can with them and the locals miss out on an income... as in the Scottish isles.


----------



## Drover

New item by chris jones
					






					photos.app.goo.gl
				



New Zealand.......
I think the sticker is now blue, you dont get any problems parking in a designated area.every town/city has at least 1, many have a quite a few


----------



## SquirrellCook

In a car park opposite the police station in Chippenham Wiltshire there used to be marked parking bays for motorhomes. Never managed to park in one as they were always occupied by lorries. I wonder if they are still there?


----------



## Martin P

barge1914 said:


> Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…
> 
> 
> Dear Sirs
> 
> Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.
> 
> He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.
> 
> I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.
> 
> Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.
> 
> Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.
> 
> Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.
> 
> Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.
> 
> The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.
> 
> Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.
> 
> Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.
> 
> I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.
> 
> 
> Yours Faithfully


First rate letter


----------



## maureenandtom

TeamRienza said:


> I have been involved in negotiating with councils in N. Ireland with motorhomecraic.com for the provision of parking and possibly aires. (This was asked about in the Dornoch thread before closure).
> 
> I find the attitude of site owners to be very tunnel vision, ie use our site or nothing, including lobbying councils to ban parking.
> 
> What I cannot understand is that for a very small outlay, a limited area at or near their site gates could earn them £10 per night times the number of spaces with the potential to still have income when the main site closes at the end of summer. Aire type provision only all year round. No staff costs and low maintainence, but greed for full site fee and laziness seem to be more important.
> 
> I often think of the church halls and community and sports clubs around the country who could boost their income in a similar way. Beneficial for both sides. A few bays marked in their car parks, £10 per night and free night watchmen to keep an eye on their buildings.
> 
> I keep telling my local council and MP that barriers do not solve the problem, it needs creative solutions, because we are a growing industry. Like the i. R. A. “We haven’t gone away you know”.
> 
> Davy




Hi Davy.

I remember your work.    Can you remember which NI council it was who asked us to complete a questionaire which they intended to use for a report into motorhoming?  Do you know if the council prepared a report;  did you see one?

If you know if that report was ever published I'd love to see it – but what council was it?  Carrickfergus?    I've no problem with asking the council what happened to it – maybe after Covid-19 has abated a bit.

Tom


----------



## TeamRienza

Hi Tom,
It was Ards and north Down council. I did not see the finished report, but it must have been very positive as the council began looking at locations with in its council area with a view to providing nine parking locations with about three of them having service points which would have been excellent provision for the size of the council area. It would have been pivotal in the exercise to obtain parking in the whole of N.ireland. I did visits to all of the locations and made recommendations on numbers, how to least impact on the size of the car parks, with regard to houses with views, and of course signage and proper use.
The one existing Aire in Donaghadee was being abused, simply through over use, hardly surprising since it was the only one in the area although other car parks in villages were available, but they were not marked as aires nor had facilities.
One of the local caravan site owners took the council to court claiming that overnight parking or provision of such was not the responsibility of councils and any other reason you could think of wether semi legitimate or not. He took lots of freedom of information actions against the council and by implication the officer who was developing the project. He was even demanding my identity.
No clear out come emerged but the plans stalled whilst we await an update of the caravan site regulations which bear no relation to the issue of aires. 
You may be aware that we were without an assembly for three years so everything stalled. For instance the use of electric bikes in N. Ireland remained illegal until a week or so back when the legislation was rushed through to help with the current C19 situation.
I also ceased communication with the council officer in charge as I felt he was probably getting enough grief and I did not want to compromise his position any further. 
The Assembly reconvened just before the emergency commenced so things are still in suspension. The council was still hoping to progress the scheme at the last communication which I had.
Meanwhile my own local council has provided 5 marked bays in the town of Newcastle (Co. Down) a seaside resort town after negotiation and just before lockdown I was in contact with the council regarding further bays in another car park earmarked for expansion. Other councils are gradually opening their eyes to the need and potential benefit of parking. The Republic of Ireland is also beginning to see the potential for public or private provision. The model of Cobh in Co Cork being the role model.
I provide a link to a thread on motorhomecraic which tracks the freedom of information requests ‘Mr. Smith’ pursued the council over in the run up to the court hearing. We did offer to brief the council legal team and attend as expert witnesses but the offer was not taken up.
I would hope when all is back to some sort of normality to reopen the lobbying of that and other councils, although as I am sure you are aware, for such a large and vocal community few of us are prepared to do something about it and I have a limit to what I can achieve in the time and money I can afford to put against the effort. Note Ally is the owner of the craic forum. The first link is a synopsis of what I believe the council are hoping to provide. The second the FOI thread.









						Aire provision in N. Down Ards
					

I received an email today from N. Down  Ards council which follows on from my involvement in the council area tourist development plan and the subsequent survey that many of you completed. The council is now actively looking at the provision of Aires at Luke’s point, Ballywalter amenity centre...




					www.motorhomecraic.com
				












						Freedom of information
					

Ards and North Down Council FOI request (not by us) https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/prohibition_of_motorhomes_campin




					www.motorhomecraic.com
				




Lots of other threads on Donaghadee if you search.

Pm me if you want to talk about it

Davy


----------



## trevskoda

Problem with the camper parking bays in newcastle is cars,they just park up in the bays and bu--er of for the day,maybe next time i shall park across the front of them.


----------



## maureenandtom

Hi Davy,

That's wonderful;  thanks very much.   Your experiences very much mirror our own – you'll know that John Thompson (tmcto) became dispirited with the lack of support and I gave up for a year or two when my loss of enthusiasm was added to when my motorhome was stolen.  I was without a van for a couple of years but now I've been feeling the urge to begin work again.  Lack of support is a bit disheartening.  I'm hoping that someone will become a campaigner and I can become a supporter!

I'll leave it for a while but it looks like that council report could be a useful document and if, eventually, I get a copy I'll let you know.

Thanks and thanks for the offer of pm contact.

Tom


----------



## TeamRienza

trevskoda said:


> Problem with the camper parking bays in newcastle is cars,they just park up in the bays and bu--er of for the day,maybe next time i shall park across the front of them.



Trev,

You need to read the sign. It is mixed usage until about 6pm. When I took this negotiation on the council had already passed a motion to erect barriers at the seafront car parks. The castle island seemed a good compromise, but the problem was we still had to try and maintain the same capacity of parking. Our answer was to remove six car bays and replace them with 4 Motorhome/car bays. We were able to add 2 more car bays by a bit of lateral thought elsewhere in the car park. The idea was sold as mixed use, much as many French aires are. Arrive in the evening and you will have a space for the next day. If I was staying I would prefer to park at the car park beside the outside pool (called the rock pool) just beyond the end of the promenade, or park by day at the tennis courts. Working with council to provide more spaces at Donard car park behind Nikkis kitchen.

Davy


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## antiquesam

Moped said:


> In areas of France we visit frequently we have noticed this but only on a small proportion of sites and only off peak. It is a bit of a mystery that more sites do not offer this motorhome concession but we are quite happy to use ACSI sites for €12 or €14 if the location is convenient. At least it means we can get the tables and chairs out and use hook up. During late July and August full tariffs would apply regardless.
> 
> Now that would be the equivalent of £10 or £12 in the UK. If the two big clubs offered that rate for off peak motor homing with that rate limited to stays of 3 nights maximum then their more remote sites would be busier and motorhome sales in the UK really would take off!
> 
> Maybe the motorhome manufacturers should start lobbying the clubs?


I stay on club sites off peak for £10 to £12 with an old f*rts concession complete with EHU and shower facilities. Are you suggesting that they cut off a section for motorhomes with no access to the ablutions? If so I'll lose out.


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## trevskoda

TeamRienza said:


> Trev,
> 
> You need to read the sign. It is mixed usage until about 6pm. When I took this negotiation on the council had already passed a motion to erect barriers at the seafront car parks. The castle island seemed a good compromise, but the problem was we still had to try and maintain the same capacity of parking. Our answer was to remove six car bays and replace them with 4 Motorhome/car bays. We were able to add 2 more car bays by a bit of lateral thought elsewhere in the car park. The idea was sold as mixed use, much as many French aires are. Arrive in the evening and you will have a space for the next day. If I was staying I would prefer to park at the car park beside the outside pool (called the rock pool) just beyond the end of the promenade, or park by day at the tennis courts. Working with council to provide more spaces at Donard car park behind Nikkis kitchen.
> 
> Davy
> 
> View attachment 82589


Must be new as this was not there last time i went there,problem is the consideration bit,always cars in the bays so campervans cannot get in and go down the town to spend money.


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## Biggarmac

Its not just councils we need to lobby.  Landowners can also provide suitable parking.  There are many community owned places who could take a lead from the West Harris community iniative.  I am in touch with a lady who is trying to set up an aire in the borders, next to a railway station and community cafe.  
It might be worth trying to get a power point presentation together for using with councils and community groups.  On my travels in Europe I have taken many photos of aires and have some info.  There must be someone on here, who has much better technical skills than me, who can put this together.


----------



## Moped

antiquesam said:


> I stay on club sites off peak for £10 to £12 with an old f*rts concession complete with EHU and shower facilities. Are you suggesting that they cut off a section for motorhomes with no access to the ablutions? If so I'll lose out.



That £10 to £12 rate is only available to single occupants with the concession and only for Camping Club sites. If you are a couple you pay more. There are club sites without toilet blocks and these are significantly cheaper. Maybe clubs could apply these lower rates to all sites if motorhome users did not wish to use toilet blocks?

Also bearing in mind the current CV19 situation this non use may be the new campsite normal!


----------



## maureenandtom

I received an ACSI Newsletter yesterday making the point that they expect fewer places.   Fewer places equals higher prices?   And less chance of just turning up and finding vacancis?      This means aires even busier?   And a lower tolerance for wild-camping away from aires?


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## SquirrellCook

If we were heading for a specific location we often used Alan Rodgers stops in peoples gardens.  There would normally only be 2 - 6 pitches and waste and water points if you were lucky.  Payment was often by an honesty box.  We found these really handy.  The Garmin satnav doesn't have this info, shame.


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## antiquesam

Moped said:


> That £10 to £12 rate is only available to single occupants with the concession and only for Camping Club sites. If you are a couple you pay more. There are club sites without toilet blocks and these are significantly cheaper. Maybe clubs could apply these lower rates to all sites if motorhome users did not wish to use toilet blocks?
> 
> Also bearing in mind the current CV19 situation this non use may be the new campsite normal!


How do they stop you using the facilities. Some have keys but most either have a code or nothing. Wouldn't it be simpler to use the cl's or cs's, many of which have no facilities?


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## Lioncrunch

Hi all as a relatively newbi, what other Clubs are available


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## Biggarmac

antiquesam said:


> How do they stop you using the facilities. Some have keys but most either have a code or nothing. Wouldn't it be simpler to use the cl's or cd's, many of which have no facilities?


They are all lockable one way or another.  For us single oldies the CL / CSs are often dearer.  When the Temporary Holiday Sites (THSs) start again,  thats where I will go. All of the THSs with a start date in July have been cancelled.  Hopefully some of the August ones will be on.


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## barge1914

antiquesam said:


> I stay on club sites off peak for £10 to £12 with an old f*rts concession complete with EHU and shower facilities. Are you suggesting that they cut off a section for motorhomes with no access to the ablutions? If so I'll lose out.


No, on the French sites that do this you can still choose to go in the camping area at the normal rate if you want to use all the facilities. The motorhome stop area provides only the services of a basic Aire.


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## Moped

antiquesam said:


> How do they stop you using the facilities. Some have keys but most either have a code or nothing. Wouldn't it be simpler to use the cl's or cs's, many of which have no facilities?


Camper vans probably have more success with cl’s and cs’s. We have found that a lot of cl‘s and cs’s, whilst stating motorhome friendly, do not have hard standings. During wetter periods it is impossible to manoeuvre a 4T motorhome on these sites, especially a Ducatto with front wheel drive.

Agree though that if they have hardstandings and hard access roads they are OK but many still charge £15 or more.


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## antiquesam

Moped said:


> Camper vans probably have more success with cl’s and cs’s. We have found that a lot of cl‘s and cs’s, whilst stating motorhome friendly, do not have hard standings. During wetter periods it is impossible to manoeuvre a 4T motorhome on these sites, especially a Ducatto with front wheel drive.
> 
> Agree though that if they have hardstandings and hard access roads they are OK but many still charge £15 or more.


I'm sorry but it isn't to please everyone all of the time. I don't think you'll get your wish, but I wish you well


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## antiquesam

barge1914 said:


> No, on the French sites that do this you can still choose to go in the camping area at the normal rate if you want to use all the facilities. The motorhome stop area provides only the services of a basic Aire.


I wish you well in your quest but fear it won't happen in my time.


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## peter palance

Lioncrunch said:


> Hi all as a relatively newbi, what other Clubs are available


just try the 3c, for get the other one, have a look at there prices, over price over here. who wants to be a million aire. ok pj


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## Fisherman

Lioncrunch said:


> Hi all as a relatively newbi, what other Clubs are available



Lioncrunch, please don’t take out of this thread that being a member of the big two is a poor move. They both offer excellent campsites, associate sites, and used by many on here thousands of certified locations (CLS) on private land at very reasonable prices and great locations. You cannot book any of these CLS unless you are a member.
My gripe with both of them is that they have not moved with the times. When they were both formed caravans greatly outnumbered Motorhomes and campers, but now it’s around 50/50, with Motorhomes and campers becoming more popular in years to come. The caravan club, two years ago changed their name to the caravan and Motorhome club, but basically other than changing their name nothing has changed. They promote the myth that wild camping is illegal, as seen in the recent letter in the CCC magazine. Many Motorhome owners still think that wild camping in carparks or lay-byes were overnight parking is allowed is illegal, it’s not. The big two deliberately confuse the issue by referring to acts like the freedom to roam act in Scotland which has got nothing to do with what we do.
The needs of Motorhome owners are more complicated than the needs of caravan owners. Most of us did not fork out vast sums to simply use campsites. We paid all this money and annual costs to have the freedom to go to places on a whim, and to respect these places as the treasures they surely are. Yes we also enjoy campsites occasionally, but using them normally only when required.
So the big two really need to realise that unless they change their ways they will alienate many of their members. Catering only for their own needs, and those of caravan owners is not good practice, and may cost them dearly. Advising us to always use campsites, only serves to highlight how far behind the curve they are.


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## Biggarmac

When the Camping and Caravanning club started it was camping in tents.  Members took their tents on their backs or on their bikes.  They have "sections" for the different sorts of camping units who organise green field camping meets (all cancelled this year till at least the end of July).  Their Temporary Holiday Sites (THSs) always have drinking  water and elsan disposal.  Many of our members use these but it is always worth ringing ahead to check the ground conditions.  


Lioncrunch said:


> Hi all as a relatively newbi, what other Clubs are available


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## Drover

Just before this lockdown we were on a csma site for the best part of 3 months I guess.
prices varied by the day with fri/sat being more expensive than the other5 days, I suppose it averaged out around £12 per night... with weekdays around £9.
We got ....
Up to 6 people and 1 dog.( though there was only the 2 of us) Free use of swimming pool for all occupants,  free sauna, free jacuzzi. Free showers, free wash room and laundry. (Chargeable)
Football size play area for kids.
There was a bar, restaurant and games room.
Entertainment on fri/sat  (hence the extra charge) though we never went.
I know these are out of season prices, but they ain't bad.
summer and school holidays are a lot more.
It is a club the same as the two big ones in the uk and needs to make a profit....
What excuse do the two big ones have for their excessive charges. 
Yes you need to be a member ( I think its £28 per year)


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## Biggarmac

chrisjones18 said:


> Just before this lockdown we were on a csma site for the best part of 3 months I guess.
> prices varied by the day with fri/sat being more expensive than the other5 days, I suppose it averaged out around £12 per night... with weekdays around £9.
> We got ....
> Up to 6 people and 1 dog.( though there was only the 2 of us) Free use of swimming pool for all occupants,  free sauna, free jacuzzi. Free showers, free wash room and laundry. (Chargeable)
> Football size play area for kids.
> There was a bar, restaurant and games room.
> Entertainment on fri/sat  (hence the extra charge) though we never went.
> I know these are out of season prices, but they ain't bad.
> summer and school holidays are a lot more.
> It is a club the same as the two big ones in the uk and needs to make a profit....
> What excuse do the two big ones have for their excessive charges.
> Yes you need to be a member ( I think its £28 per year)


Where is that site?  Often looked at CSMA stands at shows but not got their information


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## Debroos

TeamRienza said:


> Trev,
> 
> You need to read the sign. It is mixed usage until about 6pm. When I took this negotiation on the council had already passed a motion to erect barriers at the seafront car parks. The castle island seemed a good compromise, but the problem was we still had to try and maintain the same capacity of parking. Our answer was to remove six car bays and replace them with 4 Motorhome/car bays. We were able to add 2 more car bays by a bit of lateral thought elsewhere in the car park. The idea was sold as mixed use, much as many French aires are. Arrive in the evening and you will have a space for the next day. If I was staying I would prefer to park at the car park beside the outside pool (called the rock pool) just beyond the end of the promenade, or park by day at the tennis courts. Working with council to provide more spaces at Donard car park behind Nikkis kitchen.
> 
> Davy
> 
> View attachment 82589


Sorry, could you explain that. You said ’arrive in the evening and you will have a space for the next day'.....
On the notice it says a maximum of 12 hours....I must be missing something!


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## Drover

Biggarmac said:


> Where is that site?  Often looked at CSMA stands at shows but not got their information


Whitemeads in forest of dean,
You need a membership number to get the discounted rate  it does not come up automatically...at one time you needed to be a civil servant ..... now they accept a variety of people, now called boundless.


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## trevskoda

Debroos said:


> Sorry, could you explain that. You said ’arrive in the evening and you will have a space for the next day'.....
> On the notice it says a maximum of 12 hours....I must be missing something!


I arrive in the morning and wife shops all day,then home,40 miles,dont want to over night in town just park safe of road.


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## maureenandtom

chrisjones18 said:


> Whitemeads in forest of dean,
> You need a membership number to get the discounted rate  it does not come up automatically...at one time you needed to be a civil servant ..... now they accept a variety of people, now called boundless.



You've stirred memories.  I'm a member.   Or at least I think I am.   I still get the Boundless magazine and it's not long since I got the May/June issue. but. it's a long time since I had a membership (CSMA) card and, I'm not sure, but I don't think Britannia Rescue give you one either.   I've looked out one of the old CSMA membership cards and I think I signed up with  Britannia Rescue from them and then things become hazy.    Anyway, I'm still with Britannia Rescue and I still get the Boundless Magazine.    There's no list of sites in it but there is an email address for an Interest Group - Campign and Caravanning..   Not much on their website but I will be contactng them.   Their listed address is Britannia House in Brighton so the same group?

So ...

Is this a site owned by CSMA (Boundless) or is it part of a discount scheme something like ACSI.   Show a membership number to a commercial campsite and get a discount?    Is there a list of such campsites?    Sounds interesting.


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## Drover

maureenandtom said:


> You've stirred memories.  I'm a member.   Or at least I think I am.   I still get the Boundless magazine and it's not long since I got the May/June issue. but. it's a long time since I had a membership (CSMA) card and, I'm not sure, but I don't think Britannia Rescue give you one either.   I've looked out one of the old CSMA membership cards and I think I signed up with  Britannia Rescue from them and then things become hazy.    Anyway, I'm still with Britannia Rescue and I still get the Boundless Magazine.    There's no list of sites in it but there is an email address for an Interest Group - Campign and Caravanning..   Not much on their website but I will be contactng them.   Their listed address is Britannia House in Brighton so the same group?
> 
> So ...
> 
> Is this a site owned by CSMA (Boundless) or is it part of a discount scheme something like ACSI.   Show a membership number to a commercial campsite and get a discount?    Is there a list of such campsites?    Sounds interesting.


Britannia rescue is now Frizzle or LV insurance as it's better known 
Csma office is in Brighton. 
If you mean whitemeads, then yes its owned by csma.


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## Biggarmac

The July CCC magazine is now online.  There are two letters re wildcamping- one of them mine!


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## 2cv

I’m really impressed that the CCC printed the letters. Both excellent, thanks to the writers.


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## Fisherman

An abbreviated version of my letter and another were published in this months CCC magazine. But I note no comment from the editor regarding his remarks last month.

*Wild camping rules*
I write in response to Scott Currie’s letter regarding wild camping in the June issue (thto view).

I detest anyone in a motorhome who behaves poorly, and gives the otherwise friendly, well-behaved wild camping community a poor name. However, I have spent some wonderful times in beautiful locations where there are no campsites, and as far as I am aware I have never upset or annoyed anyone.

On my many crossings to the Scottish islands, out of 88 vehicles on board the ferry, there are normally only one or two motorhomes. We buy our provisions locally, and will normally go for a meal or two. And we will spend one night in three at a managed campsite to replenish water, and empty our cassettes. 

Unless road markings or signage state otherwise, there is nothing illegal regarding parking a car or a motorhome in such a position.

There seems to be confusion regarding the 2003 Land Reform Act (Scotland) which you refer to. The act had nothing to do with motorhomes or other vehicles, except that they were not included within the act.

The act was enabled to facilitate freedom for people to pitch tents on private land. It did nothing to remove our rights to park legally where we are permitted to, within car parks where there is no signage preventing overnight parking.

Fife Council is to be applauded for its forward-thinking measures in recent times, with plans to add motorhome spaces and limited facilities to some of its car parks.

All we ask is for somewhere to park peacefully and preferably out of the way. And if facilities like chemical waste and water are provided, I am more than happy to pay for them.

Is that too much to ask for?

William Hurley, Milton of Campsie, Glasgow

*Support motorhoming*
I was disappointed to read your response in the June magazine, to Scott Currie’s letter regarding Wish you Were Here in the April magazine (thto view).

The topic of wild camping raises many questions as the term is widely misused. In Scottish law it means wilderness camping in a tent, but in common parlance it has come to mean off-grid overnighting in campervans and motorhomes, which is not illegal. It has been widely accepted in Scotland for many years but unfortunately too many people are coming, especially to the Highlands and Islands, who do not know the etiquette to follow.

The dearth of facilities for disposal of waste is a problem that some communities are tackling, notable examples being the North Harris Trust at Hushinish Gateway in the outer Hebrides and at Glencaple and Caerlaverock stopover in Dumfries and Galloway.

More of these facilities would help to alleviate some of the problems that Scott Currie mentioned. Motorhome owners who are used to visiting the continent, or who are from the continent are surprised at how few basic stopovers there are in the UK. We should be helping to encourage communities and landowners to provide Stelplatz-type facilities for motorhomers.

Most motorhome wild campers use a mix of campsites and stopovers and try to put money into local economies by eating out and buying provisions. Most people have a budget for their trips and if they have to pay the cost of campsites at £30 per night to use facilities they neither need nor want, as opposed to £5-£10 donations for disposal facilities, they will have less to spend in tourist shops.

Meg Macdonald, South Lanarkshire


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## Fisherman

After giving this some thought I am astounded that the editor made no comment.
The second letter from Meg MacDonald directly refers to his comment about legality. Yet he remains silent. Possibly his silence speaks a multitude. 
At least we raised an issue that has been ignored by the big two.
Meg raises a point I have many times on here with regards to Europeans coming here and being shocked at the lack of facilities.


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## Moped

Fisherman said:


> After giving this some thought I am astounded that the editor made no comment.
> The second letter from Meg MacDonald directly refers to his comment about legality. Yet he remains silent. Possibly his silence speaks a multitude.
> At least we raised an issue that has been ignored by the big two.
> Meg raises a point I have many times on here with regards to Europeans coming here and being shocked at the lack of facilities.


The magazine does have a tech advice article on “Parking your motorhome” which may well be in response to recent emails received. However it really only covers daytime parking.


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## Fisherman

Moped said:


> The magazine does have a tech advice article on “Parking your motorhome” which may well be in response to recent emails received. However it really only covers daytime parking.



I only glanced at the online magazine last night moped, I have not received my copy yet. I will look out for this article. I hope that they regret publishing Scott curries rant. I know that at least six on here wrote to them.


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## peter palance

Moped said:


> The magazine does have a tech advice article on “Parking your motorhome” which may well be in response to recent emails received. However it really only covers daytime parking.


it says one thing, greed comes close, we were members of one, now only of 3 c, plus wildcampers, they dont want you out on the range,even when they are full,so
pass it by if your only passing through, stick to the rules, show them 2 finger, starting with peace and love, then turn them, round and up------ thank you. ok.pj.


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## Geraldine

Tas has a positive attitude towards campervans


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## Fisherman

Moped said:


> The magazine does have a tech advice article on “Parking your motorhome” which may well be in response to recent emails received. However it really only covers daytime parking.



Just read the article on parking. I wonder


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## Geraldine

Geraldine said:


> Tas has a positive attitude towards campervansView attachment 83381View attachment 83382View attachment 83383


Forgot to add photo of donations box for your stay.


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## Fisherman

Just received an email from a motorhome owner from Aberdeen.
I was given his contact details by the CCC.
He is campaigning for better treatment in Aberdeenshire.
He was looking for information on Fife council motorhome policies.
Looks like word is getting round, enough is enough.


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## Biggarmac

Fisherman said:


> Just received an email from a motorhome owner from Aberdeen.
> I was given his contact details by the CCC.
> He is campaigning for better treatment in Aberdeenshire.
> He was looking for information on Fife council motorhome policies.
> Looks like word is getting round, enough is enough.


The FB group CAMPrA (Campaign for real Aires is in the process of getting information together in a form that people can use to lobby their local authorities and landowners.  It might be worth pointing him in that direction.  We will be looking at best practice from all around the UK.


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## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> The FB group CAMPrA (Campaign for real Aires is in the process of getting information together in a form that people can use to lobby their local authorities and landowners.  It might be worth pointing him in that direction.  We will be looking at best practice from all around the UK.



See if they are aware of this, I suppose they will be.

I don't do FB.



			https://d1ssu070pg2v9i.cloudfront.net/pex/fcct/2020/01/07105859/Freedom-Camping-Options-Paper-on-Motorhome-Use-in-Fife.pdf


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## Biggarmac

Fisherman said:


> See if they are aware of this, I suppose they will be.
> 
> I don't do FB.
> 
> 
> 
> https://d1ssu070pg2v9i.cloudfront.net/pex/fcct/2020/01/07105859/Freedom-Camping-Options-Paper-on-Motorhome-Use-in-Fife.pdf


Thanks for that.  I will bring it to the attention of the founder of the group when we do a Zoom meeting tonight.  Sorry you don't do FB as you would be an asset to the direction of the group.  Meg


----------



## Fisherman

Biggarmac said:


> Thanks for that.  I will bring it to the attention of the founder of the group when we do a Zoom meeting tonight.  Sorry you don't do FB as you would be an asset to the direction of the group.  Meg



All the best with your campaign, it’s long overdue.
We have to stop accepting toleration and start to be appreciated.
We tolerate criminals and idiots, we are neither.
We are not seeking to be pampered, or given special treatment.
Equitable, fair and balanced will suffice, and right now there is a grave shortage of this in the UK. Fingers crossed that there are some forward thinkers out there within our local councils.


----------

