# Autogas BombShell



## maingate (Oct 3, 2012)

I was recently refused service at a Shell Garage. They said I cannot refill my Alugas refillable bottle. The reason given was that it is a BOTTLE and is BOTTLE shaped.  The management at this garage were of no help whatsoever so I just left the premises.

This was at the start of a trip to Scotland and I had no problems gertting refills elsewhere. We just got back today and as Shell did not reply to my email (sent 18/09), I rang them up. *The person I spoke to did some checking and has said that BOTTLES, however legal and safe, cannot be filled on their forecourts*.

Would wildcamping members who are also members of other forums please spread this information to all motorhomers. I have no intention of buying any more Diesel or Petrol from any Shell garage from now on. It is not much of a protest but is all I can do.

Thanks.


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## oldish hippy (Oct 3, 2012)

MAINGATE I would be writing a strongly worded letter off to shell ,as it is not like you where trying to fill  a standard gas :yeahthat:

found this http://www.touringandtenting.com/forums/index.php?/topic/41014-the-gas-issue-self-filling/


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2012)

ironically most gas tanks are bottle shaped but on their sides . looks like a bulkhead outside fitting is the way. 
considering autogas has fuel tax and a higher vat element its a shame its still cheaper than exchanging a bottle . the whole gas system needs a rethink.


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 3, 2012)

I don't have a problem at my Shell stn in Penmaenmawr, they wanted to check that it wasn't a calor bottle, but as soon as they saw it was a Gas-it, they were fine.


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2012)

best we tell shell that then ha ha . shall we start making a list of all the places that allow it then get it stopped . or we could make a list of the ones that have stopped it then shell etc will know the ones that do allow it . ha ha .


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## maingate (Oct 3, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> I don't have a problem at my Shell stn in Penmaenmawr, they wanted to check that it wasn't a calor bottle, but as soon as they saw it was a Gas-it, they were fine.



I have filled up with Autogas many times at that Shell garage. It only came about because there was a problem (the pump would not start up when I was connected). It is clear that in the excellent link from OH that it is Shells policy not to allow these bottles to be filled.


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## hextal (Oct 3, 2012)

TBH this was one of the factors when I opted for an underslung tank, i'd heard a few people complaining that they'd been refused at garages.

Evidently people have, in the past, been seen refilling non-refillable bottles.  Unfortunatley the knock on effect gets felt by the people that bother to get the correct bottles.


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 3, 2012)

Being a cynic, could it be that Autogas is brought to you by Shell and Calor??

See:Autogas - Leading Supplier of LPG Fuel


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm on the case with this one, I've spoken to the Health and Safety man at Auto Gas and he's given me a contact at UK LPG for more info.

Will keep in touch!!

Too late in the day to speak to someone now.


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## Neckender (Oct 3, 2012)

Where I fill my gaslow bottles the owner told me that he had been contacted by (I've forgotten who) that he can't fill any gas bottles no matter what make any more, but as I've a filler in the side of my van saying auto gas he will fill mine  because has far as he's concerned I'm filling my motorhome  with gas to run the vehicle. He also said that if I opened my locker and he saw gas bottles he couldn't serve me so don't open your locker.

John.


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## witzend (Oct 3, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> Being a cynic, could it be that Autogas is brought to you by Shell and Calor??
> 
> Pretty obvious to me 2 large suppliers of bottled gas stopping us from filling bottles our local Calor depot has never allowed filling of any bottles even looking inside motorhomes to see if proper tank installed if not they won't allow you to fill regard less of remote filling pipe outside


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## Brochloon (Oct 3, 2012)

Perhaps those sites refusing refilling are simply covering themselves in case of accidents / claims.

The LP Gas Association in Hampshire have a document which states;

"It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at Autogas refuelling sites"

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at Autogas refuelling sites Provided they:

1. remain in-situ for refilling; and
2. are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
3. are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the vessel

"this view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement Liaison Group meeting of 7th July 2005 which states "PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition notice if their Inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas cylinders"


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 4, 2012)

Opened up a can of worms!!

Talked to H&S at autogas who pointed me to LPG UK.

They have an advice sheet stating:

UKLPG • the trade association for the LPG industry in the UK• P a g e 1 of 2
A Camden House •Warwick Road• Kenilworth• Warwickshire• CV8 1TH•
E mail@uklpg.org
User Information Sheet 026
August 2011
Replaces UKLPG Information Sheet 24 – June 2007
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is the advice from UKLPG that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at self service autogas refuelling sites.
Containers which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or
similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be
permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:
 are not removed for refilling; and
 are secured in a suitable enclosure; and
 are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
 are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.
UK Health and Safety Regulations, made under the Health and Safety at Work Act,
including the:
 Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations
 Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment
Regulations
 Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations
 Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations
 Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order
impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites
are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the
site, including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and
they may be considered, in law, to be the filler.
Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at
self fill autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations, as they have neither.
Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.
This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement Liaison
Group meeting of 7th July 2005, which states “PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition
notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas
cylinders”.
Should a site decide to fill user owned, portable LPG cylinders they need to provide
trained personnel to carry out the filling.
UKLPG • the trade association for the LPG industry in the UK• P a g e 2 of 2
A Camden House •Warwick Road• Kenilworth• Warwickshire• CV8 1TH•
E mail@uklpg.org
To ensure safe and satisfactory operations they must consider:
 legal implications under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act and supporting
legislation, notably the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations,
the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure
Equipment Regulations and the Dangerous Substances and Explosive
Atmospheres Regulations;
 their planning and local authority consents;
 their position with regard to weights and measures and consumer legislation;
 their Insurance position both with regard to on site activities and responsibilities
and subsequent use of the cylinder by the customer.
Their operating procedures should ensure that:
 any cylinder to be filled is confirmed to be π marked;
(Note: this is a requirement in the UK to show compliance with the Transportable
Pressure Equipment Directive.)
 the staff only fill customer owned cylinders which they are competent to fill and
for which instructions for filling are available;
(Note: Most cylinders in service in the UK are owned by LPG companies and can
only be filled by them.)
 smoking and naked lights are prohibited;
 any cylinder to be filled and the member of staff filling it are protected from
vehicle movement on the site;
 suitable personal protective equipment is worn by the staff carrying out the filling;
 there is a method of ensuring there is no static build up;
 before any fill the condition of the cylinder is checked against a written procedure
to confirm the cylinder is safe to fill and that the cylinder is “in test”;
(Note: Customer owned composite cylinders have to be re-qualified every 5
years, steel cylinders have to be re-qualified every 10 years.)
 ensure that the cylinder is held upright during the filling process;
 the cylinder can be confirmed not to be overfilled and there is a procedure on
making safe in the event of an overfill;
 the cylinder valve is checked on completion of filling and there is a procedure on
making can be safe in the event of the valve not sealing.
Note: A customer must not be allowed to leave site with an overfilled
or leaking cylinder
UKLPG Code of Practice 12 gives more details to the Regulations and procedures that
apply to cylinder filling operations.
…

Notice the use the wording advise and should.

Therefore I would assume it is not mandatory.

I'm in the precess of speaking to Gas-It about this.

Most of the fuss comes from the "Refill Calor" type devices.

I'll keep in touch.


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 4, 2012)

Long conversation with Technical Director from Gas-It.

1.  This ban on filling cylinders is as a result of people using the illegal "calor" re-fillers as seen on Ebay.
2.   As petrol station employees are not in a position to determine whether a bottle is illegal or not, Shell and others have a blanket ban on ANY bottle that has the bayonet filler attached directly to the bottle.
3.  It is perfectly legal to have a separate filler within the gas compartment as long as it is separated from the bottle by a hose.
4.  The bayonet connector connected to a re-fillable bottle as Gas-It sell is technically suitable and legal, but as a result of illegal fillers, everyone has been branded the same.

Nick, the technical director is compiling a few notes on how to comply with these latest directives.

Obviously, there will be some operatives of filling stations who don't understand the instructions given to them, so if they see a "bottle" they may well  refuse to fill, "Just in case"!!


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## Brochloon (Oct 4, 2012)

That sums it up perfectly Pete. I couldn't chance being refused to refill so I bought the interior filling point, hose, angled bracket & cover. Cost about £45 & took 15 minutes to fit. I now have a brand new bayonet type filler lying redundant if anybody wants to collect it.

Jack


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## Firefox (Oct 4, 2012)

It's not actually "illegal" to fill a cylinder without an 80% gauge using a bayonet adapter.

UKLPG are just issuing guidelines to maintain their gravy train of refilling cylinders and distributing them at 3 times the retail cost of the gas.

Some key points (red)

*UKLPG* • the *trade association for the LPG industry* in the UK• P a g e 1 of 2
A Camden House •Warwick Road• Kenilworth• Warwickshire• CV8 1TH•
E mail@uklpg.org
User *Information Sheet* 026
August 2011
Replaces UKLPG *Information Sheet* 24 – June 2007
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is the *advice* from UKLPG that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at self service autogas refuelling sites.


Note the words highlighted. "Trade Association" - ie Someone whose interest is in profit of its members ie Gravy Train.  eg  "Advice"  eg "Information"

Everything is based on their "interpretation of the implications" of HSWA

It's perfectly safe to fill a cylinder provided it is strapped in and you fill it with the correct volume of gas and double check the weight of the contents afterwards.


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## Geoffiat (Oct 4, 2012)

*Reply from Shell HQ*

Official policy of Shell, had this short reply from them.

We do not refill LPG bottle in all our forecourts as we have handed
this to our distributor

In view of this policy they wont be getting anymore of my diesel money.


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## Teutone (Oct 4, 2012)

I don't have a bottle, my "bottle" is a vertical 4 hole tank with a 80% automatic shut of valve 

I followed discussions about all this before I installed my setup and based on what I read I added an external filler point from the start to avoid any discussions with fore court staff. Turns out to be a good decision.:king:


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## maingate (Oct 4, 2012)

My filling point is inside the gas locker. I made a metal mounting plate which bolts on to the lugs on the Alugas bottle and the bayonet fitting (complete with bracket) is bolted to that. Technically the bayonet fitting IS bottle mounted but not in the context of the non-refillable Calor bottles.

The former owner of my van had fitted a second underslung fresh water tank at the rear of the chassis. He removed this tank when he changed vans but the filling point and hose is still there. It would be easy to fit an LPG tank and use the old water filling point as an LPG filling point. It is a lockable cap and I have no key for it but an electric drill will soon rectify that. 

I think I will go down that route as I have plenty of spare weight carrying capacity on the rear axles (tag) but run near (or over sometimes ) on the front axle. I will save the weight of 2 x 11 Kg bottles on the front axle.


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## Kontiki (Oct 5, 2012)

I use Countrywide when ever I can, un-manned autogas filling stations (pity there aren't more of them). I just have my key + pin number & can fill up at any time without any queuing or hassle, as gas is for domestic use I pay 5% vat & payment taken by direct debit. Price last time I filled up 58.5 pence per litre.


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## Tony Lee (Oct 7, 2012)

>  are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.



And this is the main problem.

Yes, practically-speaking, a system that has the refilling nozzle mounted on a bracket inside the gas locker and connected to the fixed bottles by a length of pipe DOES comply and there shouldn't be any problems.

However, given the frequent advice given here about buying adaptors off ebay and refilling normal bottles and doing it inside the locker so the operator can't see what you are doing, it is quite reasonable for any console operator to assume that anyone messing around inside a gas locker is refilling normal bottles that may not be fitted with an overfill protection device (which brings several other of that list of rules into play). Why should the operator inconvenience other customers and come outside in the cold and rain to try and sort out whether some DIY gas installer is pulling a fast one. Far easier and far more sensible to just refuse to switch the dispenser on and when the irate customer comes in to complain, just explain that it is against the company rules.

Just fit an external filling point and reduce the chance of any hassles. Too easy!!


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## Bigpeetee (Dec 14, 2012)

Been digging around when possible on this.

Several issues have arisen:

There have been several instances of Calor type bottles that have been refilled by the use of an adapter causing damage with at least two caravans being burned out, a large fire caused by a BBQ etc.

When it is reported in the media, it is a "Calor" gas bottle that was the cause of the fire. Obviously Calor are precious as to their reputation and instances like this do no good to them.

Contractually, by using a Calor bottle you accept their T&C's, one of which states that you cannot refill only exchange.

They are, quite rightly protecting not only their investment but their reputation.

They are tackling the misuse of their bottles including those that convert them illegally into fires, BBQs etc.

Nick Farrrow at Gasit has made a comment on this, see: GAS IT Leisure Gas by FES Autogas Ltd - Catering, Motorhome, caravan and Road Repair Refillable Gas Solutions - GAS IT On Bottle Bayonet Fillpoint with GAS IT built in non return valve 80% shut off Refillable Bottles - not to be confused with Gaslow 

I reiterate, I'm nothing to do with Gasit, but have found them to be nothing but helpful and good value.

As far as I can see, the owners of filling stations can't afford to take the risk of letting people fill Calor bottles as they are then committing an offence. Their staff can't be expected to check for legality of loose bottles, so by only allowing "Fixed" bottle filling is one solution.

PS By law, to fill anything with LPG you need training, the instructions on the side of the pump constitute training.


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## maingate (Dec 14, 2012)

Calor remain strangely quiet about the numerous cases of gas leaks coming from between the bottle itself and the screwed in valve assembly. This has been reported on more than one forum.

There has also been the odd report of the gas shutoff valve passing.


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## Bigpeetee (Dec 14, 2012)

maingate said:


> Calor remain strangely quiet about the numerous cases of gas leaks coming from between the bottle itself and the screwed in valve assembly. This has been reported on more than one forum.
> 
> There has also been the odd report of the gas shutoff valve passing.



That's PR for you!!


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## Tony Lee (Dec 14, 2012)

> It's not actually "illegal" to fill a cylinder without an 80% gauge using a bayonet adapter.


 Perhaps not if it is being done by a trained operator using calibrated equipment, but I don't think it applies to any old citizen fubling around in the bowels of a gas locker.




> It's perfectly safe to fill a cylinder provided it is strapped in and you fill it with the correct volume of gas and double check the weight of the contents afterwards.



Don't see how this makes any sense.  Once it is overfilled, it is too late and without an approved overfill valve, you can't be sure it isn't overfilled.

Anyway, I'm sure our resident proponent of shonkey ebay adaptors will soon be along to tell us why they are perfectly acceptable to all fuel outlet operators and that it isn't their fault that there might be a crack-down on the practice.


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## big tom (Jan 4, 2013)

*Filling at Shell Stations*

I have an underslung gas tank on a S700 Hymer,I never fill up in the UK, but for years I have had this problem at Shell (and only Shell others ok) stations in france, you will fill up with diesel then try to top up with LPG they won't let you.The secret is pull onto the LPG pump first then go in to the kiosk they will ask if it is for cooking say no its for the engine no problem.


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