# penalty charge notice



## slonger (Aug 26, 2016)

I have been issued with penalty charge notice for incorrect parking. having looked at the signs it question I think they are confusing does anybody on here have any experience with formally appealing these things if so what are my chances of winning?

I parked in a coach park then went to the machine to check out about staying the following signs were on the machine.

  
this sign was on the wall 

now this notice is the reason I am in trouble according to the council  aparantly I need to follow coach regulations to use a coach bay. I do agree that I shouldnt have parked there because they wanted the carpark for cars but at the time I read all the signs that seemed to apear to me and thought it ws ok to park. They list a hgv/coach tariff well I class myself as a hgv not a coach as thats what i am taxed as. also at the time I arrived there was nobody else parked in the carpark indicating thats how the car park would be used. It was my first time to the area and didnt know it would get busy. (I have dash cam footage to prove this)



thanks Steve


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## Tbear (Aug 26, 2016)

If you have proof that you had payed for all your time there, I would make a polite phone call, explaining that there are several signs saying several things so where confused by it all but you had payed for your time so had conformed with the spirit of the regulations if not the letter.

Richard


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## sasquatch (Aug 26, 2016)

There are many Councils who treat the motorist as a wallet on wheels and to this end the contractors they employ are given targets for issuing tickets-they will deny it but I have proof.
There are many organisations to help and there is a parking arbitration service who will advocate with the Councils.
Independent Appeals Service
Traffic Penalty Tribunal - Traffic Penalty Tribunal
How to fight a parking ticket properly | This is Money

According to your last picture you may have been issued the PCN for not parking correctly in the bay.


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## slonger (Aug 26, 2016)

sasquatch said:


> There are many Councils who treat the motorist as a wallet on wheels and to this end the contractors they employ are given targets for issuing tickets-they will deny it but I have proof.
> There are many organisations to help and there is a parking arbitration service who will advocate with the Councils.
> Independent Appeals Service
> Traffic Penalty Tribunal - Traffic Penalty Tribunal
> ...



I parked correctly in the coach bay but not in the pink bays that were for cars


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## maureenandtom (Aug 26, 2016)

Just thinking out loud.

What PCN code did they use?    PCN Code 91?  Parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle?

Or, maybe …

PCN  Code 86?   Not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space?

If it's Code 86 then I think they've got you.  Pay up and park within the lines in fuure.

If it's Code 91 then you possibly have an argument or a lot of good fun with it anyway.   You have parked in an area designated for you;  their notice says so.   Apart from that one restriction you are not subject to any of the rules regarding coaches unless they say so – which they haven't.      The rule that coaches are to vacate between 10am to 4pm does not apply to you.  You are not a coach though you must park in a space for a coach – but that does not make you a coach.   

You follow the rules on your PCN and write to the council that the offence (Code 91?) did not exist because you followed their reqirement regarding the parking space to be used and you had no indication that, in any other respect, you had to follow any requirements applicable to coaches.


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## Tbear (Aug 26, 2016)

slonger said:


> I parked correctly in the coach bay but not in the pink bays that were for cars



Sign clearly states "coach bay" not "pink bay" so clear grounds for appeal.

Richard


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## yeoblade (Aug 26, 2016)

I would be totally confused as well.
As you are not a Coach Driver then you needn't vacate by 10am, you should park in the coach not pink bays, so appeal.
The Charges appear strange too.


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## slonger (Aug 26, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> Just thinking out loud.
> 
> What PCN code did they use?    PCN Code 91?  Parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle?
> 
> ...



the pcn code they used is 91 "parked in a car park or area not designed for that class of vehicle"

the picture below taken from my dash cam shows white markings for the coaches and pink markings for the cars I parked correctly in the white markings and ignored the pink ones


Steve


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## maureenandtom (Aug 26, 2016)

T Bear is right.  You are within the white lines.  You have good grounds for appeal.  But the PCN Code is important.  What is it?

EDIT:   We posted simultaneiously. Code 91.   There is no offence.  You have parked correctly within the councils conditions.   The rule regarding vacation by coaches does not apply to you unless they make it clear - and they have not done so.

The procedure for appeals will be on the PCN and the first step is an informal appeal to the council.


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## slonger (Aug 26, 2016)

Thanks for your replies.
Maybe I should have said earlier that I have done the informal appeal. I got the letter today saying it was unsuccessful as by using a coach bay the coach regulations must be abided.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 26, 2016)

Then you now make your formal appeal – making the same points.

The offence did not occur because you parked correctly within a coach bay as required by the car park conditions published on the car parking signs.   Nowhere on the parking signs is there a condition that you abide by regulations for coaches and you had no reason, explicit or implicit, to know that the council had any such rule.   Your vehicle is not a coach.  You obeyed the rule for a motorhome as to which space to park in.

You have obeyed their regulations and the offence of parking in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle did not occur.   You expect the council to withdraw their PCN and if the council does not do so you intend to appeal to the Parking Adjudicator.

The risk you take is that if the Adjudicator agrees with the council then you might (the council says will) have to pay the full fine.   I'd take the risk because I don't think you'll lose.  Most people who go as far as the Traffic Adjudicator win and my impression is that parking signage has to be spot on, that is, clear which here it isn't.  Read up on the references you've been given.  Here is another very good one. Parking tickets: appeal parking fines - MoneySavingExpert


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## pughed2 (Aug 27, 2016)

*parking penalties*

if you are a full timer like me, just ignore it I always do. Alternatively fill your house with a complete load of rubbish, wreck of a vehicle outside,  so theres nothing for them to take like I always did, then same rules can apply......ignore it.......I still got this vision of me crossing the channel on a ferry to france, and looking back to see another ferry chasing, full of baton waving police, bailiffs, sheriffs, taxmen, private security etc.....bit like that chase scene on the end of the Benny Hill show........steve bristol


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## Sky (Aug 27, 2016)

I've been through this a few times now and everyone is correct with their advice.

The only thing I would stipulate, is to put EVERYTHING in writing and send by recorded delivery. This is because people will lie, phone calls will not be recorded (unless you do it) or you will be ignored.

Don't get angry, but be firm and polite.

The incompetence of these people is staggering - your effort will help stop them from profiting from this easy moneymaker.

What enrages me is the time and effort wasted, especially mine for the sake of a few quid.  However, it's the principle that drives me.

I have won all four of my appeals BTW and not paid a penny.


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## bigG (Aug 27, 2016)

Take a look at www. donotpay.co.uk 

I heard about on the radio yesterday. If you fit the criteria it sounds very easy.


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## runnach (Aug 27, 2016)

I challenged a very similar situation with Blackpool and won.

A couple of points

1) you entered into a contract with limited information.

2) and the important bit , they are saying you have a motorhome, you don't you have a motor caravan the term motorhome has no legal definition. therefore the signage is incorrect and can't be enforced.

Here are the relative rgs a extract from my letter which I hope helps

I took a photo of the machine and assume that the PCN was issued because the attendant has 

been instructed that it was a "motorhome"

I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009 adopted by all states in 

2012,And currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOt purposes etc .That the term "motorhome" enjoys no legal 

definition, I do not own a "motorhome" but a motor caravan which is clearly stated on my registration document, the 

term on your signage therefore is a generic term not a legal one and I believe renders the PCN void.

The correct classification of M1 within the current legislation I have quoted in effect irrefutably complies with 

the terms on your parking machine,indeed the vehicle was being used as a vehicle constructed for the carriage of 

passengers,any"special " adaptation or body is of no relevance 

I trust that having consulted your legal team with the evidence I have quoted,the PCN will be revoked with 

immediate effect and the council will consider the points outlined if they wish to discriminate certain types of vehicle

Channa


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## Deleted member 53880 (Aug 27, 2016)

good luck with your appeal
when you win don't let it drop,complain about the handling by the staff [blind?]etc who,if they had any honesty,know that you were right but are hoping the parlarva, trouble and the disgraceful 'double or quits' financial gamble  makes you pay up like they do to less informed peeps,
keep posting what happens please,
all the best and good luck,jan

p.s, i had my first ticket [guilty m'lud,paid]in over 30 years the other day due overstaying in aldi ,camborne,


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## sasquatch (Aug 27, 2016)

If the regs on display were contradictory and confusing,how do you expect a minimum wage 'thicko' civil enforcement officer to understand? Around here the policy is to issue and leave it to the driver to appeal.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 27, 2016)

sasquatch said:


> If the regs on display were contradictory and confusing,how do you expect a minimum wage 'thicko' civil enforcement officer to understand? Around here the policy is to issue and leave it to the driver to appeal.





Just like Preston then, and proved by the Lancashire Evening Post many years back      :mad2:


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## Jeff G (Aug 27, 2016)

janner said:


> good luck with your appeal
> when you win don't let it drop,complain about the handling by the staff [blind?]etc who,if they had any honesty,know that you were right but are hoping the parlarva, trouble and the disgraceful 'double or quits' financial gamble  makes you pay up like they do to less informed peeps,
> keep posting what happens please,
> all the best and good luck,jan
> ...



True,perhaps someone should sue the council for compensation for time ,stress and anything else they can think of and maybe councils would be forced to change their directives to the ticket issuers.I think there was a case a few years ago,where the guy had kept a record of phone calls and time spent putting his appeal together and was successfully recompensed


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## Canalsman (Aug 27, 2016)

Google Maps

So the notice in the right hand, northern, section of the car park has a notice saying that 'motor homes' must use oversize or coach bays. This section has no oversize bays, but the adjoining section has coach bays.

You have complied with the instruction, therefore.

However the other section does not permit use by coaches, cars only, between 1000 and 1600 in July and August. Not unreasonably therefore, not being a coach, you used an oversize/coach bay to park.

Because you don't have a coach, you have complied with the ban on such vehicles parking in the southern section of the car park between 1000 and 1600. I note that it was 1003 or thereabouts that you parked.

And as you don't have a car either, you have not broken the edict about parking in pink bays only.

As a matter of interest, what fee did you pay for parking?

PS Just re-read the council's letter. It says that you were parked in a coach bay and therefore must comply with regulations that apply to coaches. But you obeyed a notice in close proximity which instructed you to use such a bay because you have a 'motor home'. That notice should read:

'Motor homes must park in a coach bay, and coach parking regulations will apply'

The word oversize is omitted because there are no oversize bays, and the part about regulations makes it totally clear what is expected rather than being highly ambiguous!


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## yeoblade (Aug 27, 2016)

janner said:


> good luck with your appeal
> when you win don't let it drop,complain about the handling by the staff [blind?]etc who,if they had any honesty,know that you were right but are hoping the parlarva, trouble and the disgraceful 'double or quits' financial gamble  makes you pay up like they do to less informed peeps,
> keep posting what happens please,
> all the best and good luck,jan
> ...



This double or quits should act conversely too. 
You should be able to charge THEM for their incompetence in their job, which has inconvenienced you with time and expense.


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## slonger (Aug 27, 2016)

POI Admin said:


> As a matter of interest, what fee did you pay for parking?



At the time of parking the machine was out of order so I had to pay using the app on the phone. The only option was to pay the standard car parking charges. which was £2.40 for 2 hours I kept topping it up by phone throughout the day


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## sasquatch (Aug 27, 2016)

The chair of OFSTED may have been correct in his comments about IoW!


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## yorkslass (Aug 28, 2016)

slonger said:


> At the time of parking the machine was out of order so I had to pay using the app on the phone. The only option was to pay the standard car parking charges. which was £2.40 for 2 hours I kept topping it up by phone throughout the day



A slight deviation, but does anyone know what provision there is if you don't have internet access to enable you to pay online?


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## mikigough (Aug 29, 2016)

Waiting patiently for the outcome.


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## izwozral (Aug 29, 2016)

hairydog said:


> Not obligatory, but certainly pretty sensible. You can get a perfectly usable PAYG mobile phone for £10 or so and unless you use it to make outgoing calls or send texts, there is no ongoing cost. So why wouldn't you have one?



And if you don't want one?


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## runnach (Aug 29, 2016)

hairydog said:


> Not obligatory, but certainly pretty sensible. You can get a perfectly usable PAYG mobile phone for £10 or so and unless you use it to make outgoing calls or send texts, there is no ongoing cost. So why wouldn't you have one?


 Unless it has changed ? every Payg I have ever had requires a top up, top ups have a "shelf life" Texts are a non starter ? can you pay by text ? As Iswozral says not everyone wants a phone anyway...My father has one 85 years old , never has it switched on , not a clue how to use it. And in his world got this far in life without one. 

Channa


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## Barry72 (Aug 29, 2016)

My father is 82 and has had a mobile since the days they resembled a suit case, however if the machine is broken he can't pay. To him his phone is exactly that........a phone. If you send him a text he can read it, once, if it leaves the screen it has gone and can never be found again. If someone suggested he could pay with his mobile his only option would be to try and force coins into it his phone because he sure couldn't follow the instructions to pay online.

Barry.


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## Deleted member 775 (Aug 30, 2016)

quite a few parking machines now have a facility to pay by card ,thats a great idea . as many times you haven't got the coins available ,i certainly dont as i pay by card for most things now ,i even pay by card for my beer /medicine  at my local by card , i order 2,3.or four pints at the same time easy saves pratting about with notes and change every time . but as for the pay by phone milarky i wont do ,i cannot because i havent got a mobile ,well i have i seem to have three or four in the drawer at home  but there never used . about time in the 21st century that all parking meters should have the facility to accept payment by card ,everybody has one ,everybody uses them  not everybody has a mobile nuisance .


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## Fazerloz (Aug 30, 2016)

And there are plenty without cards too and don't want one.


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## vindiboy (Aug 30, 2016)

Fazerloz said:


> And there are plenty without cards too and don't want one.


  I have just refused Contactless payment cards from Nationwide again, what a performance that is, a new card arrives and it is contactless in spite of telling them that I do not want contactless, they then have to reorder another card , their system wont let them order a card without contactless payment facility first time apparently, stupid banks, so now I have the standard Debit Card and am happy to use my PIN every time.


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## runnach (Aug 30, 2016)

Urban myth perhaps David, But I have read of cards being skimmed. contactless being the operative word I suppose 

Channa

In Tezza fashion Contactless card owners warned against public transport scanner hack


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## Fazerloz (Aug 30, 2016)

Cards certainly aren't as secure as banks would like you to believe.


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## mikigough (Aug 30, 2016)

If you happen to lose your card, someone can run up a tidy sum without pin or Id.


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## runnach (Aug 30, 2016)

losing cards is not the issue yet again the subject changes track. the point is you dont have to lose your card any public place you can be scammed. The fallout I suspect the banks believing they are infalliable, proof of burden on the cardholder...it seems reasonable to me why people don't want one given.
channa


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## Fazerloz (Aug 30, 2016)

Just do a search for bank credit cards and details for sale . If you think they are so secure.


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## Fazerloz (Aug 30, 2016)

Your last paragraph is the answer. I would also add fuel stations to the list here in the UK,.


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## maingate (Aug 30, 2016)

channa said:


> losing cards is not the issue yet again the subject changes track. the point is you dont have to lose your card any public place you can be scammed. The fallout I suspect the banks believing they are infalliable, proof of burden on the cardholder...it seems reasonable to me why people don't want one given.
> channa



In either 2014 or 2015, a large number of motorhome owners were victims of Credit/Debit card fraud.

They paid online by Card to attend a Warners Motorhome Show. The fraudulent event was vigorously denied by Warners who insisted their website and Payment procedures were secure. Details of exactly what happened seems to be hard to find.


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## maingate (Aug 30, 2016)

Of course they were reimbursed but it should not be possible in the first place (at least according to Warners). As owners of the Out and About Live forum, they got very angry that members affected by the fraud wanted answers. Nobody found out how but vowed never to use their cards again with Warners. The company accepts payment by cheque and that is what they receive nowadays.


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## wanderlust51 (Aug 30, 2016)

slonger said:


> I have been issued with penalty charge notice for incorrect parking. having looked at the signs it question I think they are confusing does anybody on here have any experience with formally appealing these things if so what are my chances of winning?
> 
> I parked in a coach park then went to the machine to check out about staying the following signs were on the machine.
> View attachment 45803 View attachment 45804
> ...


I always ignore the letters,I have had three occasions to date and have never replied to any letters,they eventually give up


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## Mul (Aug 30, 2016)

hairydog said:


> That's one opinion. I've worked in banking IT, in mobile phone banking and in a few related fields and I know it IS a security issue. I do have contactless cards because I can't be bothered to try to get uncontactless ones, but I've never made a contactless payment, and I have no plans to.



Makes no odds if you've used it or not, they work by RFID (Radio Freq Ident). The transmitter (mobile) could be passed over yur wallet and read the 200 or so bytes of info it needs. Only saving grace is if you have two or more cards together the "scanner" would get confused as both cards would try and send simultaneously which is a problem for nearly ALL readers. The "scanner/reader" provides enough radio freq power to effectively "wake the card/s up."

HTH ?


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## eddyt (Aug 30, 2016)

that is silly carrying all those important documents together. for such a clever
person.


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## n brown (Aug 30, 2016)

on the continent it is necessary to carry passport, residentia, and car papers if driving. not as bad as France i expect, but replacing papers in Portugal can be very expensive and take up to 2 years. and of course you can't drive a car without your licence, passport and car docs in the vehicle !
having seen how much hassle is caused by losing these papers, i would never trust a wallet, and carried all in a bum bag, which i constantly checked ! wallets can fall out of pockets and are a pickpocket's joy, wallets and phones in back pockets, which i see a lot of girls doing .


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## wildebus (Aug 30, 2016)

mikigough said:


> If you happen to lose your card, someone can run up a tidy sum without pin or Id.


I am not a fan of contactless cards either for this type of reason.
How long does it take to push a card in a terminal and punch in 4 numbers? Is life really that hectic that waving a card and saving 10 seconds is so vital?


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## trevskoda (Aug 30, 2016)

n brown said:


> on the continent it is necessary to carry passport, residentia, and car papers if driving. not as bad as France i expect, but replacing papers in Portugal can be very expensive and take up to 2 years. and of course you can't drive a car without your licence, passport and car docs in the vehicle !
> having seen how much hassle is caused by losing these papers, i would never trust a wallet, and carried all in a bum bag, which i constantly checked ! wallets can fall out of pockets and are a pickpocket's joy, wallets and phones in back pockets, which i see a lot of girls doing .



So from that i take it you look at girls bums or did i miss something.:rabbit:


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## Greengrass (Aug 30, 2016)

*Aldi*



janner said:


> good luck with your appeal
> when you win don't let it drop,complain about the handling by the staff [blind?]etc who,if they had any honesty,know that you were right but are hoping the parlarva, trouble and the disgraceful 'double or quits' financial gamble  makes you pay up like they do to less informed peeps,
> keep posting what happens please,
> all the best and good luck,jan
> ...



Thats not a parking ticket thats a invoice, Never paid one of them yet just dont answer them


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## vindiboy (Aug 31, 2016)

It is a securityt issue if I lose the card and it is found my a ner do well it can be used so easily, it can be scanned in my pocket by scammers,unless it is kept in a lead ?lined  wallet  etc I know I would get any money back taken fraudulently  from my accounts but what a lot of hassle that would be, anyone wants these cards good luck to them, but NOT me.


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## vindiboy (Aug 31, 2016)

People do no fear new technology but simply do not want to be bothered by it , I am reasonably Computer competent but WILL not do on line banking , I bother not with Internet whilst on our travels or very rarely anyway, my phone has the roaming switched OFF whilst foreign, etc, life goes on without all this technology,it is simply not needed to the degree some would have us believe, each to their own of course but I do object to the way we are all being forced into the Internet world to do the most mundane tasks.


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## delicagirl (Aug 31, 2016)

vindiboy said:


> People do no fear new technology but simply do not want to be bothered by it , I am reasonably Computer competent but WILL not do on line banking , I bother not with Internet whilst on our travels or very rarely anyway, my phone has the roaming switched OFF whilst foreign, etc, life goes on without all this technology,it is simply not needed to the degree some would have us believe, each to their own of course but I do object to the way we are all being forced into the Internet world to do the most mundane tasks.




i know many people fear internet banking in case of scamsters, but i have been doing it for many many years and have never ever had an issue with any of my banks' websites security.  The amount of security information i need to input before i am allowed access to my accounts is huge and the questions i have to answer change every single time i use the computer, so i think its as fail safe as anything can be.

However, i Almost lost £2k on paypal   - but the banking system is so cleverly designed to recognise unusual transactions that i got a call asking me if i was really wanting to buy £2k of fishing equipment in Hanover !!!      The money took a while to get back, but i got it back.


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## Deleted member 53880 (Aug 31, 2016)

bloodnut said:


> Thats not a parking ticket thats a invoice, Never paid one of them yet just dont answer them



i had such a lot on that i paid,i thought about just leaving it but on reflection i kinda felt guilty overstaying my hour and a half,i do/did use their small carpark since it opened and don't think i have ever bought anything which made me feel that maybe i was stopping a customer parking as it was as near as damnit full,i have never heard of anyone in tesco's up the road getting a ticket/charge tho


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## izwozral (Aug 31, 2016)

The front trouser pocket on the side you 'dress on' is considered the safest place for a wallet, unless, you wear those ridiculous pants with the crotch that hangs around the knees and look like pantaloons.


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## trevskoda (Aug 31, 2016)

Prob never opened thats why its lasted.:lol-049::lol-049:


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## maj114 (Aug 31, 2016)

*parking fines*

Hi was this Shanklin  we go there often and have never understood the regulations we avoid it and park on sea front we have disabled badge so its ok if you find a bay long enough.
just a little extra we in a bay one day and traffic warden wasn't happy as were over the length lines but said if you have 2 blue badges you will be ok ,we do as it happens have one each but never put this to the test :dance:
Shanklin car parks do get very busy especially in summer at weekends


:camper:


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## maxi77 (Aug 31, 2016)

vindiboy said:


> People do no fear new technology but simply do not want to be bothered by it , I am reasonably Computer competent but WILL not do on line banking , I bother not with Internet whilst on our travels or very rarely anyway, my phone has the roaming switched OFF whilst foreign, etc, life goes on without all this technology,it is simply not needed to the degree some would have us believe, each to their own of course but I do object to the way we are all being forced into the Internet world to do the most mundane tasks.



The fundamental problem we all have to put up with is all forms of government are discovering that it allows more time for civil servants tea to adopt automated phone or online systems, so it is inevitable that more and more will be done online or using phones. Whilst I fully understand the desire to avoid the information highway I fear it will become effectively compulsory before too long


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## trevskoda (Aug 31, 2016)

Im ok as when they see me they just say irish halfwit and wave me through .:lol-053:


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## slonger (Oct 4, 2016)

I have had a reply to my appeal. They say that the pcn was correctly issued but on this occasion as a goodwill gesture they are prepared to cancel it 

thank you for all your help in this
Steve

View attachment Scan0003.pdf


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## delicagirl (Oct 4, 2016)

slonger said:


> I have had a reply to my appeal. They say that the pcn was correctly issued but on this occasion as a goodwill gesture they are prepared to cancel it
> 
> thank you for all your help in this
> Steve
> ...



Glad you got a refund.....  

They can never admit they got it wrong can they  ?    

 "As a good will gesture"   ...    "on this occasion we will refund you" ...    "its not our policy but "  ...  why cant anyone just say  "i screwed up , i am sorry" and deal with it.  

Whenever i hear  "on this ocassion"  -  my parting shot is usually  "on this occasion you may like to know this is the VERY LAST occasion that i have used your shop".


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## jeanette (Oct 4, 2016)

slonger said:


> I have had a reply to my appeal. They say that the pcn was correctly issued but on this occasion as a goodwill gesture they are prepared to cancel it
> 
> thank you for all your help in this
> Steve
> ...



Pleased you got it all sorted and it was the right outcome even though as Collette has said they can never admit they were wrong!!


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## runnach (Oct 4, 2016)

[No message]


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## colinm (Oct 4, 2016)

Had a similar reply when appealing central london congestion charge "on this occasion ...", they couldn't admit to screwing up the appeals procedure.


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## delicagirl (Oct 4, 2016)

i ordered and paid for a pair of shoes in Windsor to be posted free of charge to arrive in somerset before christmas....   come  end of jan no flaming shoes.   i phoned and spoke to a  couldn't-give-a-toss employee who said they didn't do refunds.   Oh yes you do for goods  not received, i said.

"You will have to come in and collect the refund as you paid in cash."
"are you looking at my account on your computer?"
"yea"
"can you see my address ?"
"yea."
"do you know where somerset is?"
"yea"  -  indignantly.
"do you seriously expect me to drive for 4 hours to pick up cash?"
pause 
"yea"
"on this occasion, tell your cowardly manager, who personaly promised me this service, and now  who will not come to talk to me on the phone, that i will be reporting this branch, and her,  to Trading Standards, Your head office, the local police,  the local newspaper and the queen if i dont get my refund via internet banking by tonight."
pause
"she says on this occasion she will do that,  can i have your bank details please." 

Grrr .....


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## runnach (Oct 4, 2016)

delicagirl said:


> i ordered and paid for a pair of shoes in Windsor to be posted free of charge to arrive in somerset before christmas....   come  end of jan no flaming shoes.   i phoned and spoke to a  couldn't-give-a-toss employee who said they didn't do refunds.   Oh yes you do for goods  not received, i said.
> 
> "You will have to come in and collect the refund as you paid in cash."
> "are you looking at my account on your computer?"
> ...



should have told them best pal with Imelda Marcos :rolleyes2:

Channa


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## delicagirl (Oct 4, 2016)

channa said:


> should have told them best pal with Imelda Marcos :rolleyes2:
> 
> Channa



i doubt imelda wore flat  suede lace-ups in a bright lilac  Channa !!!   but they were so comfy .....   sighs


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## wildman (Oct 4, 2016)

from the photo of the parked vehicle it appears you are NOT parked entirely within the marked bay. I suspect that is what the ticket is for.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 4, 2016)

The council is not in the business of issuing PCNs and cancelling them for reasons of goodwill.   Why select you for their goodwill and not everybody who bothers to appeal?

The council spokesman will not admit it but there was no chance the parking adjudicator would have found in the counci's favour.   The wording the adjudicator used in the York case that Channa quoted was "the council had no power to issue the PCN" in deciding an individual - just one - appeal and I guess that would have been your outcome too.  Or words very similar.

The outcome of the York decision was as Channa stated.  Even then York council exercised no goodwill and repaid fines only to those motorists who applied for a refund.  Google "Lendal Bridge refunds" and you will find many fragements of the whole story.  This one Total cost of Lendal Bridge fiasco to top Â£760,000 (From York Press) shows that £1.3 million stood to be refunded.

Your council would not have wanted to be in a similar position of refunding all penalty charges;  much better to call it goodwill and let you off their hook.


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## runnach (Oct 4, 2016)

maureenandtom said:


> The council is not in the business of issuing PCNs and cancelling them for reasons of goodwill.   Why select you for their goodwill and not everybody who bothers to appeal?
> 
> The council spokesman will not admit it but there was no chance the parking adjudicator would have found in the counci's favour.   The wording the adjudicator used in the York case that Channa quoted was "the council had no power to issue the PCN" in deciding an individual - just one - appeal and I guess that would have been your outcome too.  Or words very similar.
> 
> ...



Certainly in my case with Blackpool, I had irrefutable proof of their wrongdoing on a couple of counts, However it does beg the question not everyones questions and accepts it as a bit of bad luck. My father would if only because of his age, It amounts to extracting monies with menace, I wonder how much Blackpool are making in this sordid little exercise? 

Should it get as far as a court, which the Lendal Bridge fiasco proves the costs could be far higher and yet they continue to publish illegal signage terms and conditions. 

I take little comfort in the fact, that York gained possibly £13000 in interest charges at a paltry 1 % interest rate, Still that pays for some oik tomorrow continuing to slap tickets on vehicles with questionable legality 

Channa


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## Captain Biggles (Oct 5, 2016)

If you are unable to find anyone able to give you 'someone in authority's' e-mail address, just keep phoning their switchboard on different days at different times and sooner or later you'll find somebody who will give you the individuals name and someone who when given the name, will be quite happy to forward their e-mail address to you.

Keep trying, it'll work eventually.

I crossed swords with the Wazzocks responsible for the Car Parks in Fort William who didn't know their rear end from their elbow, and when presented with the facts, were too embarrassed to pursue the matter further, so DON'T GIVE UP ! 

       Captain Biggles      lane:


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## Deleted member 967 (Oct 5, 2016)

County Court judgements are now being processed in bulk at an office in Northampton for sums as low as 1p.    They write to the last known address and if no reply the judgement goes through automatically.   Parking invoices can now be process this way, as was highlighted in the "Money Program" or "You and Yours" on Radio 4 recently.

You may ignore the invoice, but it no longer means it goes away and can haunt you for 6 year if they do a credit check on you.


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## delicagirl (Oct 5, 2016)

John Thompson said:


> County Court judgements are now being processed in bulk at an office in Northampton for sums as low as 1p.    They write to the last known address and if no reply the judgement goes through automatically.   Parking invoices can now be process this way, as was highlighted in the "Money Program" or "You and Yours" on Radio 4 recently.
> 
> You may ignore the invoice, but it no longer means it goes away and *can haunt you for 6 year if they do a credit check on you*.



a credit check on you, in itself, does not necessarily affect you  - and you would be surprised how many companies in their small print/T&Cs say that they will be conducting one on you and you agree when you tick the "i have read"  box.    


the 6 year problem is if the parking company (or anyone else) applies to moneyclaimonline  and you dont get the letter, they will get judgement by default because you have not responded.  At that point you may get a County Court judgement against you and the notification of that will go to the address that they have on file for you.

If you pay the fine (plus their costs) within a month (i think) you wont get the CCJ.   

If you think you may have a CCJ  then look on the website above, or call their helpline and ask, or look on Experian or Equifax websites to check your credit status and any CCJs will appear on there -  this costs money.


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## pughed2 (Oct 5, 2016)

*free parking*

slonger....................I sympathise with some of you guys, the problems you seem to get into............as you may know, been a full time wildcamper for over 3 years now, and never paid a penny to park anywhere. This might give you a laugh to brighten the day. Theres a very large sprawling local authority car park alongside the Solent waterway, nearish Southampton which some of you may know, but can stay nameless for this. Theres meters everywhere, and entrance signs about paying. I have stayed there many times free over the last 3 years (usually keeping a weather eye out for meter people). On one occasion, I arrived at 0200 from Bristol taking advantage as often of the quiet night roads, and parked in my usual ship watching position, and head down. Out of bed at 0800, pulled back the front seat curtains on the camper, and shock, was face to face with a council meter maid, who was peering into van. `Have you got a ticket?` she requested. `I only came about an hour ago, never seen this place before, and did not know there was any meters`, I said (All lies.) `The meter is just over there` she said please get a ticket. `Alright I replied, I will go straight over`. She wandered back to her little council van, about 200 yards away. I very quickly tore off a small bit of paper from a little notepad I have in the cab and stuffed it in a pocket. Nonchalantly sauntered over to the meter, spent a few seconds `reading` the blurb, then pulled out the wallet, and made as if to obtain coins, and put the empty hand up to meter slot several times, as if pushing in coins, and then with sleight of hand pulled the scrap of paper from pocket and sauntered back to van, placing the blank paper in the screen. With that, the meter maid drove off with a wave, and all were happy, and I can continue to afford to wildcamp and enjoy another day ..................steve bristol


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## Nesting Zombie (Oct 5, 2016)

Hi Gang,
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who have never had a parking notice, so can't really comment on that with any experience, But I wonder that if you play the 'Legal Game' with these people if it might make them think twice before issuing a Blatantly Wrong, Unfair or even remotely Arguable ticket in the first place.
Put a Tax Disc size Notice in the Bottom Corners of your Windshield, (Maybe even one on the top edge of your Wheel Arches if you can) to the effect of -

Dropbox - 01.jpg

Obviously you can tweak the wording to suit, and be more realistic, but it would be like 'Your T&Cs'

I wonder if that would be Legaly enforceable in the event of a 'Wrongful' ticket being issued ?, 
Any Traffic Lawyers around ?.


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## delicagirl (Oct 5, 2016)

we have to pay to park in many places these days  -  its a fact of life -  we may not like it  -   council parking charges are part of a councils income to provide us all with services .....  if they are claimed  illegally  - fair enough challenge them   -  but arguing about a small amount of money just for the "game" seems a bit pointless to me.


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## Nesting Zombie (Oct 5, 2016)

Yeah, absolutely.
If you read again i implied, Not on about the Fair Cop Tickets at all, Obviously just pay up.


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## pughed2 (Oct 5, 2016)

*delicagirl, I take it you are rich*



delicagirl said:


> we have to pay to park in many places these days  -  its a fact of life -  we may not like it  -   council parking charges are part of a councils income to provide us all with services .....  if they are illegal claimed fair enough challenge them   -  but arguing about a small amount of money just for the "game" seems a bit pointless to me.



Delicagirl, if I had paid to park everywhere I have parked in the last 3 years it would be running into the thousands, possibly £5000, and really, I just have not got it. The alternatives would be a tent in a field somewhere, or plaguing my local authority for housing benefit etc.........I think I will just continue with the `game` for now.............steve bristol


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2016)

Nesting Zombie said:


> Hi Gang,
> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who have never had a parking notice, so can't really comment on that with any experience, But I wonder that if you play the 'Legal Game' with these people if it might make them think twice before issuing a Blatantly Wrong, Unfair or even remotely Arguable ticket in the first place.
> Put a Tax Disc size Notice in the Bottom Corners of your Windshield, (Maybe even one on the top edge of your Wheel Arches if you can) to the effect of -
> 
> ...



This matter has been discussed in the past, this is Nick Freemans answer, a legal expert in motoring law.

To my knowledge it has not been tried or taken to court.

An MP’s letter to a constituent has opened the door to the likelihood of every driver in the country being able to legally flout parking restrictions, the country’s top traffic lawyer has said.

Nick Freeman, aka Mr Loophole, said all that drivers had to do when parking in council-owned car parks - or on public roads where parking restrictions were in place - was to put a clearly-displayed sign in the car window to state that they were there illegally and were not entering into any contract!

Bromsgrove MP, Sajid Javid, had unwittingly given the entire country a ‘free parking’ ticket, Mr Freeman said.

Mr Freeman’s comments came on the back of a letter from Mr Javid, who was asked by a constituent what fines were being given to travellers on the town’s Stourbridge Road car park.

Mr Javid, who has just been promoted in last week’s Cabinet re-shuffle, said:

There appears to be some confusion regarding the basis upon which the travellers were on the car park in question.

The position in respect of any normal user of the car park is that, by entering and parking their vehicle, they are entering into a contract with the Council to pay a sum of money in return for the Council allowing them to leave their vehicle for a specified amount of time.

If the vehicle is left for longer than the paid for time, no payment is made, or there is a failure to comply with parking regulations, there is, in effect, a breach of contract which entitles the Council to make a penalty charge.

In the case of the travellers, they were on the car park as illegal occupiers and, as such, there was no contract with them as the purpose for which they entered was not permitted.

In the circumstances the appropriate course of action was not for ‘breach of contract’ but for ‘illegal occupation’.

Mr Freeman said:

If that is the case, then motorists using public car parks, where charges are enforced, can legitimately put a note on their windscreen saying: ‘I'm here illegally, I am not entering a contract and I do not accept your T&C's’.

From a legal perspective the authority is handcuffed because of the absence of any agreement entering into a contract.

It is almost the analogous to car squatting!

Mr Freeman added: I must stress, the motorist must make it clear he or she is not entering into any contract, either expressed or implied, and is therefore not subject to any of the Ts and Cs, and the sign must be visible.


Channa


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## Nesting Zombie (Oct 5, 2016)

WOW !. Lol lol.

Well done for digging that BRILLIANT post up. 

TBH I Totally accept that Ofcourse if you are inproperly parked, Then Yep, you should Pay the Tickets. 
Interesting stuff though !.


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2016)

delicagirl said:


> a credit check on you, in itself, does not necessarily affect you  - and you would be surprised how many companies in their small print/T&Cs say that they will be conducting one on you and you agree when you tick the "i have read"  box.
> 
> 
> the 6 year problem is if the parking company (or anyone else) applies to moneyclaimonline  and you dont get the letter, they will get judgement by default because you have not responded.  At that point you may get a County Court judgement against you and the notification of that will go to the address that they have on file for you.
> ...



You still have a CCJ but if satisfied within 30 days can be removed from your credit file.

Re the 6 year part, the 6 years starts from the date of satisfaction. So if it takes 12 months to pay the CCJ, the 6 years starts at the end of that 12 months.


Channa


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## delicagirl (Oct 5, 2016)

channa said:


> This matter has been discussed in the past, this is Nick Freemans answer, a legal expert in motoring law.
> 
> To my knowledge it has not been tried or taken to court.
> 
> ...




amusing as this is   - if everyone actually did this  -  councils would  just increase council tax to maintain their income to provide services .....   shooting ourselves in the foot springs to mind


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## Nesting Zombie (Oct 5, 2016)

Rest assured, With the mindset of most of the people in the UK, I can't see 'Everyone' doing this


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## ricc (Oct 5, 2016)

channa said:


> This matter has been discussed in the past, this is Nick Freemans answer, a legal expert in motoring law.
> 
> To my knowledge it has not been tried or taken to court.
> 
> ...



the devil is in the detail

"In the case of the travellers, they were on the car park as illegal occupiers and, as such, there was no contract with them as the purpose for which they entered was not permitted."

the council could argue in court that the travellers were camped for several days , clearly a a purpose that the carpark wasnt intended for.    anyone parking for a few hours and leaving  is using the carpark for its intended purpose and thereby entering into a contract


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## delicagirl (Oct 5, 2016)

pughed2 said:


> Delicagirl, i*f I had paid to park everywhere I have parked* in the last 3 years it would be running into the thousands, possibly £5000, and really, I just have not got it. The alternatives would be a tent in a field somewhere, or plaguing my local authority for housing benefit etc.........I think I will just continue with the `game` for now.............steve bristol



you could always choose to park elsewhere where it is free


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2016)

delicagirl said:


> amusing as this is   - if everyone actually did this  -  councils would  just increase council tax to maintain their income to provide services .....   shooting ourselves in the foot springs to mind



I wouldn't disagree with that. Therein lies a little conundrum, This is where such as Maureentom and I disagree, Although mileage in both arguments.

let me give an example re my experience with Blackpool council although one would not have to travel too far to replicate the same situation.

Clearly their signage is illegal, using terminology that has no legal definition for starters.

So the two options are, I know it is illegal but unless it affects me which it did inadvertently, keep quiet and challenge should I get ticketed.( please note like Slonger I did make payment )

Maureentoms answer shout from the rooftops and fight to get the signage removed. This happened in Scotland btw by he whose name not allowed on here.

Tom is right to do that in someways, if only that if the rest of us acted illegally we would be brought to task. ( morally I find it difficult to disagree with him I have total empathy from that viewpoint)

Equally keeping one heads below the parapet / radar and challenging when necessary is possibly more productive in the sense no TRO's no bylaws etc. 

I see both sides, and I agree lost revenue to a council they will redress in some other way.

Remember we are not talking about parking for nothing, or avoiding a parking charge, but the legalities and best way of challenging those in authority who are a law to themselves given opportunity

I hope this makes sense 

Channa

The issue I see is all that happens is councils go away introduce TRO's or bylaws where there is no get out.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 5, 2016)

ricc said:


> the devil is in the detail
> 
> "In the case of the travellers, they were on the car park as illegal occupiers and, as such, there was no contract with them as the purpose for which they entered was not permitted."
> 
> the council could argue in court that the travellers were camped for several days , clearly a a purpose that the carpark wasnt intended for.    anyone parking for a few hours and leaving  is using the carpark for its intended purpose and thereby entering into a contract



There was a bit of discussion about this earlier:

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/wild-camping-motorhome-chat/53974-parking-charges-2.html

There doesn't seem to be a route for the council to get a parking ticket matter into court.   Following the laid down procedure the route is PCN - Appeal - Adjudicator (whose decision is final and binding on the council).   No way for the council to get a court involved - on a parking matter.

This is the post I made in that thread I show above.



maureenandtom said:


> But the council hasn't been "prevented from issue".  And there's no reason to use a court.
> 
> If it did, then defence in court would be that there was no contract and the court would either rule that there had been a contract or there hadn't.   And give its reasons!!   If it was me - then it wouldn't get to a court.   I'd simply tell the council I had no contract with them and the council would then have only two options.  Cancel the PCN or follow it up using normal procedure - the next step is called a Notice to Owner.   The council has no other option - certainly not yet a court.
> 
> ...



Interestingly the County Councillor who can't be named had a series of disclaimers printed and they were used.   I don't know of any tickets issued or appealed.


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## Nesting Zombie (Oct 5, 2016)

I HAVE to say, I try and put myself in the position of both parties in positions like this in the hope I can make a balanced reasoning in my mind. & if I was the Land Owner of the Car Park I would ofcourse be PIXXED OFF !, with a situation of people coming onto MY land that I was providing as a service for people to use at a cost if they simply observe and comply with a few T&Cs with Obvious & Total disregard for such. Yep that's just not right in my view. & in such a situation I would hope that the law would be on my side for that. The same way as if I had a notice clearly visible on my vehicle 'Similar' to the previous posted one, was Parked correctly & I was then issued what was deemed a Wrongful Ticket (The sort sometimes issued in the hope they will be paid type thing) I would hope that the Law would be on my side to uphold my T&Cs on the said notice.


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## runnach (Oct 5, 2016)

ricc said:


> the devil is in the detail
> 
> "In the case of the travellers, they were on the car park as illegal occupiers and, as such, there was no contract with them as the purpose for which they entered was not permitted."
> 
> the council could argue in court that the travellers were camped for several days , clearly a a purpose that the carpark wasnt intended for.    anyone parking for a few hours and leaving  is using the carpark for its intended purpose and thereby entering into a contract



Devil is in the detail, i.e entering a car park as an " illegal occupant"  and a note to that effect . The purpose for entry is of no matter. 

What Freeman is clearly suggesting, from the councils own admission , is that with out a contract no charges are enforceable. By clearly stating you are their illegally accept no terms and conditions neither express nor implied. You are there in the same position as the gypsies. How long you stop for again is immaterial because you are there illegally.

Interesting concept, which has I stated as not been tested or challenged in the courts. Maureenandtoms excellent explanation of the process also suggests that seeing a court room highly unlikely.

Also you have to remember, that the council could sue for loss of use by your occupation, however the costs involved and likely outcome financially would in most cases not be an appropriate amount to justify the exercise.

Disclaimers are an interesting area of law, a few years ago a few solicitors (Freeman included from memory) argued that s172 of the road traffic act was unfair. S172 is the part you are legally required to fill in when a notice of Intended prosecution lands on the doorstep for speeding . they argued

1) S172 was a threat to the registered keeper which in itself should not be admissible and used as evidence.( if I threatened you would your evidence be reliable ? )
thus

a) The right of silence entrenched under English law was taken away.
b) Unlike other criminal allegations, no caution is given under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.
c) refusal to comply automatically ensured 3 points applied to the licence. ( since been increased to 6 points)
d) S172 amounted to a forced confession .

Some pretty compelling arguments. It went to the high court and they lost. 

The argument then went to the Grand Chamber at the ECHR and again the complainents lost. ( the vote incredible)

The government argued caution under pace was not in the "public interest" the Echr agreed, yet it went all the way to the Grand chamber 


In my mind I am convinced there was lobbying etc going on behind closed doors, albeit I have no evidence to prove that but the final outcome was so distorted in terms of the argument and rulings of the lower courts. 

Had the ECHR ruled in favour of the complainents it would have meant every speeding ticket issued in the uK could have been challenged and the fines reversed not to mention compensation for increased insurance premiums. It would have made the York fiasco seem like losing a penny down a drain in the road.

So a bit of background as to why I am cynical of the legal process.

For anyone interested , and have enquiring minds and want to draw your own conclusions  ...long winded but equally fascinating    hudoc.echr.coe.int/webservices/content/pdf/001-81359?TID=ayhzcwnequ

Channa


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## pughed2 (Oct 6, 2016)

*hello delicagirl*



delicagirl said:


> you could always choose to park elsewhere where it is free



hello delicagirl..........I cannot always park where it is free. I have been in a free spot on Cornwall south coast for the last 2 weeks, and making friends with locals etc, but if you look closely at the post, in some places, I am following my interests, and sometimes have to park for long periods to see what I want. As you know my take on  things is that it is not acceptable to have individuals, or local authorities stitching up any large areas of coast or natural beauty then trying to charge or otherwise exclude the rest of us. Grossly unfair, and we should all try to resist it. The place where I am on about, I think its a b........cheek to have vast areas blocked off for paid parking. Your response to authority may be admirable, but there is an entirely and I say fairer other ways to look at these things. The more money you give them, the more they will want to stitch up and charge dear.............steve bristol


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## delicagirl (Oct 9, 2016)

pughed2 said:


> hello delicagirl..........*I cannot always park where it is free.* I have been in a free spot on Cornwall south coast for the last 2 weeks, and making friends with locals etc, but if you look closely at the post, in some places, I am following my interests, and sometimes have to park for long periods to see what I want. As you know my take on  things is that it is not acceptable to have individuals, or local authorities stitching up any large areas of coast or natural beauty then trying to charge or otherwise exclude the rest of us. Grossly unfair, and we should all try to resist it. The place where I am on about, I think its a b........cheek to have vast areas blocked off for paid parking. Your response to authority may be admirable, but there is an entirely and I say fairer other ways to look at these things. The more money you give them, the more they will want to stitch up and charge dear.............steve bristol





that is patently untrue  -  there are millions of places in the UK anyone with a vehicle can park for free -  what you mean is you want to park somewhere lovely with a view to die for, exactly where and when you want to park, and to do so for free.    

You don't want councils charging for parking, yet you want to park for free where ever you are,for as long as you want,  and thus exclude others from enjoying that beauty spot because you are parked there  ??????   

Double standards really springs to mind here Steve.


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