# Refillable LPG Bottles,worth the risk?



## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 16, 2016)

Here in Portugal today I took my friend to refill his 6kg calor lite bottle in the car.He has an adaptor he bought off of e bay which worked well at the LPG pump..The important thing to be aware of is not to refill above 80%.I am aware of the safety implications of using one of these and do not condone using them,I have a repsol gas bottle whilst over here which is easy and cheap to exchange.
It cost the princely sum of just over €6,much cheaper than a calor lite exchange bottle in the UK.As already said I do not condone using these adaptors on the forecourt because of safety issues but I can see the reasons why people do.Apart from being much cheaper it's also convenient when in Europe as the adaptor is already fitted. 

Perhaps if calor didn't charge such rip off prices there would be less incentive to use these adaptors.


----------



## rugbyken (Mar 16, 2016)

as you say the important thing is the 80% rule I have a set of these adaptors of e bay as well but I have worked for calor refilling bottles the weight of the bottle when empty should be checked if doing it without the proper checking equipment I would always vent of the bottle turn upside down and leave overnight then fill at the rate of 2 litres per kg have done this safely for about ten years but now also have a gas lo system with outside filling point to be able to refill at any garage that has a pump, went to a repsol garage on the Spanish Portuguese border the guy operating the pump put 14 ltrs in a 6kg bottle in spite of me telling him and obviously thought I was overreacting, used that one first outside the motorhome backfed through the bbq point


----------



## Tidydragon (Mar 16, 2016)

I have fitted a  gaslo system fitted, it won't allow overfilling and instead of £20 for a calor exchange it costs £5. or so. A connection adaptor for France makes it good for me this year watching Wales play football in France.


----------



## julesanian (Mar 16, 2016)

We've just been to France and Spain and we'd have liked to have used *their *bottles but they just varied in brand so much. The ones in France _can't_ be exchanged in Spain and to be honest, we can't even fit the bottles in our locker.

In France we filled our own calor bottle (6kg), but in Spain, the forecourt attendants do it for you. 

Surely if there was a problem with filling them, the Spanish would refuse ? 

Interestingly I've seen different recommendations for how much LPG to put in. My adaptor says 11 litres, my friend's says 10 litres and I notice 'rugbyken' would have put in 12 litres !


----------



## TR5 (Mar 16, 2016)

No one should advocate, or indeed encourage anyone to refill gas cylinders which are intended to be exchanged only, if only for the fact that an uninitiated or ill informed person reading this could do so, and put themselves and others in danger.


----------



## jagmanx (Mar 17, 2016)

*Simply No !*

Strange ..
We spend loads on Insurance for vehicles.
Also the house (principally against fire damage) 
Yet some fail to invest in a safe system such as gasit or gaslow (or other safe system).
Risking not only the filler up's life but those of your nearest and dearest not to mention complete strangers.

You are possible risking a negligence claim which I suggest would NOT be met by either vehicle or any other insurance !!!

WE installed 2x11kg tanks nearly 2 years ago.

Advantages
1  1/4 to 1/3 price of Calor
2  Convenience of filling up when it suits
3  No loss of gas due to swapping a not fully empty battle.
4  Use in Europe

WE can go up to 1 month between refills
A refill costs about £20 the equivalent would be 3 calor bottles at between £20 and £25 a time x 3 =£60 at least

WE use our vehicle extensively in the summer months so I believe we will have achieved "Payback" by September 2016
Original cost £600.... can be cheaper if either 1 bottle or DIY


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 17, 2016)

julesanian said:


> We've just been to France and Spain and we'd have liked to have used *their *bottles but they just varied in brand so much. The ones in France _can't_ be exchanged in Spain and to be honest, we can't even fit the bottles in our locker.
> 
> In France we filled our own calor bottle (6kg), but in Spain, the forecourt attendants do it for you.
> 
> ...



2 ltrs=1kg. Empty the bottle and fill accordingly, IE 12 ltrs for a 6 kg bottle, no more!


----------



## wildcampnewbie (Mar 17, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> 2 ltrs=1kg. Empty the bottle and fill accordingly, IE 12 ltrs for a 6 kg bottle, no more!



I thought 20% should be left free for expansion, therefore 80% of 6kg is 4.8kg or 9.6 litres


----------



## rugbyken (Mar 17, 2016)

we were told that butane weighed 1.96litres per kg and propane 1.97 therefore with a 20% safety margin 2-1 is a reasonable ratio , tr5 is quite right we should not encourage the ill informed or untrained to refill their own bottles but I wouldn't trust them to refuel their own car in some cases but they can put a credit card in an unmanned machine and get an explosive liquid easy enough, some of the advice on here regarding electrics for example are beyond me but I recognise my limitations and wouldn't attempt them , 


      we on here are people that by the nature of what we seek out are independent minded having the confidence to do things that others won't and we share help and assistance freely the support network for the less informed/trained is the CC or the CCC,


----------



## pughed2 (Mar 17, 2016)

*EU to standardise lpg bottle attachements.*

Whilst this subject is aired again, here is a reminder that the EU is to standardise lpg gas fittings from 2017 for all countries. Assuming that uk is still in EU it may be worth waiting for info. from the dealers as to what the standard is, and that should simplify gas refills aboad. Exchange of cylinders should be similar to here..........steve bristol


----------



## Tbear (Mar 17, 2016)

pughed2 said:


> Whilst this subject is aired again, here is a reminder that the EU is to standardise lpg gas fittings from 2017 for all countries. Assuming that uk is still in EU it may be worth waiting for info. from the dealers as to what the standard is, and that should simplify gas refills aboad. Exchange of cylinders should be similar to here..........steve bristol



I think this is a wonderful idea. How many years do you think it will take to implement? 

Richard


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 17, 2016)

wildcampnewbie said:


> I thought 20% should be left free for expansion, therefore 80% of 6kg is 4.8kg or 9.6 litres



That has already been taken into account. 6 kg is what you get from the gas people in an exchange.


----------



## Canalsman (Mar 17, 2016)

It is worth pointing out that the illegal practice of refilling bottles owned by suppliers such as Calor directly affects those who have fitted safe and legal systems.

For example, it has been reported that refilling legal systems is no longer permitted by Morrisons. They have banned ALL refilling because of those who have refilled supplier owned bottles.

Sadly this is yet another example of the few messing things up for the responsible majority!


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 17, 2016)

POI Admin said:


> It is worth pointing out that the illegal practice of refilling bottles owned by suppliers such as Calor directly affects those who have fitted safe and legal systems.
> 
> For example, it has been reported that refilling legal systems is no longer permitted by Morrisons. They have banned ALL refilling because of those who have refilled supplier owned bottles.
> 
> Sadly this is yet another example of the few messing things up for the responsible majority!



Can you please advise me what is "illegal".  What are the "legal" requirements for a "legal system" that is simply a cylinder installed following the same procedure as replacing a cylinder?


----------



## Canalsman (Mar 17, 2016)

Calor, for example, owns the bottle. They explicitly prohibit refilling their property and this gives them the right to seek legal redress against someone who breaches the terms and conditions of supply.

A legal system is owned by an individual and incorporates an automatic shut off device that complies with industry safety standards.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 17, 2016)

Please correct me if I am wrong but to be "illegal" a law has to be broken?


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 17, 2016)

runnach said:


> News | Danger Of Filling LPG Cylinders At Autogas Sites -Calor



I note the authors of this report.


----------



## Canalsman (Mar 17, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong but to be "illegal" a law has to be broken?



Breach of the terms and conditions of supply is a breach of contract.

Breach of contract is illegal.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 17, 2016)

POI Admin said:


> Breach of the terms and conditions of supply is a breach of contract.
> 
> Breach of contract is illegal.



So it's a contract breach?  Highly illegal ????


----------



## midnight (Mar 17, 2016)

And has anyone had sight of this so called contract or even signed it. No doubt the answer will be NO. As this refers to calorgas then how about flowgas or Energas? What if some one gave you an empty bottle or if you found one. Where is this contract. When you buy a new bottle of gas you are made to pay a deposit for the bottle. Has anyone tried to reclaim this deposit back when they have retuned the bottle? how easy was it to get your deposit refunded. Did you still have the receipt even after five years.:wave:


----------



## midnight (Mar 17, 2016)

Did that. There is no contract just an agreement which is neither dated nor is it signed and which is a world away from a contract :rolleyes2:


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 17, 2016)

I remember having to sign and date an agreement to bide by the terms and conditions set by Calor when I rented my cylinder.


----------



## maingate (Mar 17, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong but to be "illegal" a law has to be broken?



It is illegal under H & S Legislation if you believe the Calor document.

I am inclined to believe that they are correct.


----------



## maingate (Mar 17, 2016)

midnight said:


> And has anyone had sight of this so called contract or even signed it. No doubt the answer will be NO. As this refers to calorgas then how about flowgas or Energas? What if some one gave you an empty bottle or if you found one. Where is this contract. When you buy a new bottle of gas you are made to pay a deposit for the bottle. Has anyone tried to reclaim this deposit back when they have retuned the bottle? how easy was it to get your deposit refunded. Did you still have the receipt even after five years.:wave:



Energas require a deposit on a 6 Kg bottle. Any other size are issued FOC. There is no contract.


----------



## Tezza33 (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't care if it is illegal or legal, I have no doubt 80% of our members are intelligent enough to fill a bottle to 80% of its capacity, it is the other 20% I worry about


----------



## barryd (Mar 17, 2016)

Why even risk it?  We spend tens of thousands of pounds on motorhomes and God knows how much maintaining them and going off all over Europe in them and the likes of Gaslow have created a superb and safe product which isnt even expensive, saves you money, is so convenient and wont kill you.  Why dick around with cheap adaptors off ebay?  Bonkers.

As Admin also rightly points out your not only putting people at risk but also invoking blanket bans which will include people who have invested in the proper system.


----------



## 1 Cup (Mar 17, 2016)

*useage*

For people like me, 
7.5 kg £27.50  bottals
Upgraded from 907 £25 to a 4.5kg £20Ive used two 7.5kg and one 4.5kg  in the last year.
No not cheap, 
it will do 4 weekends fridge cooking heating about £2.00  per day  but transferable.


----------



## midnight (Mar 18, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> I remember having to sign and date an agreement to bide by the terms and conditions set by Calor when I rented my cylinder.



How long ago was it since you signed the agreement that you recall.


----------



## Canalsman (Mar 18, 2016)

Calor Gas - Gas bottle returns and refills

This makes the position entirely clear.


----------



## 1 Cup (Mar 18, 2016)

*D.I.Y IS GOOD, But not for this*

Ive paid for the blue, and will again soon.

Cost is not king. SAFTEY IS.


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

Oh dear, I'm surprised they allow us to fill up our cars with petrol.
Or does profit come before safety, and therefore it's legal???

Get real, if you can fill your petrol tank safely you can certainly fill an LPG tank safely.


----------



## Deleted member 56601 (Mar 18, 2016)

The reality is that a group of people have worked their way through the education system and, after years of training and experience in their field of expertise, have recognised the dangers involved with lpg and made their findings known in the form of warning messages. 
For anyone to ignore those messages, because some mate says you can get an adaptor cheap off ebay, is putting the lives and well being of other people at risk.

I know from my experience in the engineering industry that you’ll always get people who know better than the experts with their safety warnings; you can usually recognise these people by their missing finger or crushed foot, but ‘no bugger’s gonna tell them what to do’.

To sum up - if you want to play with lpg, do it on your own in the middle of a field, not on a garage forecourt where the next car may contain my grandkids.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

*Refilling 907 Camping Gaz bottles*

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-about-refilling-907-camping-gaz-bottles.html

I make no comment

Richard


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 18, 2016)

The usual scaremongering comments from those with no understanding or experience. I say no more.


----------



## Deleted member 56601 (Mar 18, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> The usual scaremongering comments from those with no understanding or experience. I say no more.



Thank you - you've proved the point I was trying to make so much better than I did.


----------



## midnight (Mar 18, 2016)

Is it not the case that the space shuttle Challenger was built and flown by experts. Go figure that one out.


----------



## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 18, 2016)

tezza33 said:


> I don't care if it is illegal or legal, I have no doubt 80% of our members are intelligent enough to fill a bottle to 80% of its capacity, it is the other 20% I worry about



Exactly,it was the first time I had witnessed an exchange cylinder being refilled at a LPG pump the other day and my friend Brian made it look very easy.The adaptor he used had all the recommended filling levels for the various size propane bottles.(he put 10 litres in a 6kg calor lite)It worked well,he looked competent and all was fine.
It's the people that may be having a stressful day with their mind on other things that could make a mistake,overfill the bottle and not leave room for expansion.I'm sure we have all been there and made silly mistakes in the past,the problem with LPG is that it may be your last.I think I'm going to stick with the local exchange cylinders.


----------



## 2cv (Mar 18, 2016)

Tbear said:


> http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums...-about-refilling-907-camping-gaz-bottles.html
> 
> I make no comment
> 
> Richard



I wonder what became of the former members posting on that thread.


----------



## julesanian (Mar 18, 2016)

wakk44 said:


> I think I'm going to stick with the local exchange cylinders.



I agree but we've just toured through France and Spain and you *can't* exchange cylinders easily. 

We noticed so many different brands as we moved through France and we certainly couldn't have exchanged any French ones in Spain. 

You've _got_ to go down the refillable route ...


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> From the information I can find it's a grey area as to whether the so called legal systems are legal.
> My understanding is that only a permantly fixed tank/cylinder.
> _*There is a lot of scaremongering from the different companies with a vested interest in selling either refillable cylinders or bottled gas.*_



And that pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 18, 2016)

julesanian said:


> I agree but we've just toured through France and Spain and you *can't* exchange cylinders easily.
> 
> We noticed so many different brands as we moved through France and we certainly couldn't have exchanged any French ones in Spain.
> 
> You've _got_ to go down the refillable route ...



I agree with you too,I also have a 60 litre refillable gas tank.The reason I have got a Repsol bottle is because we are on a site long term with the awning up and I don't want to be going out in the van to refill.I simply go in the hire car to the fuel station and exchange bottles when necessary.
When touring France(or the rest of Europe)a proprietary refillable gas bottle or tank is definitely the way to go,it's just a pain carrying all the different adaptors,they don't make it easy.


----------



## RoaminRog (Mar 18, 2016)

wakk44 said:


> I agree with you too,I also have a 60 litre refillable gas tank.The reason I have got a Repsol bottle is because we are on a site long term with the awning up and I don't want to be going out in the van to refill.I simply go in the hire car to the fuel station and exchange bottles when necessary.
> When touring France(or the rest of Europe)a proprietary refillable gas bottle or tank is definitely the way to go,it's just a pain carrying all the different adaptors,they don't make it easy.



If carrying a small bag with adapters in it is a pain, I hope you never get a puncture, that would be the end of your world!


----------



## listerdiesel (Mar 18, 2016)

When we built our big 6-wheel trailer in 2011, we looked at LPG systems and decided to go refillable, using a 4-hole tank from Tinley Tech and external fill points.

That gave us a reliable system that was 100% legal and 100% safe, subject to mechanical failure.

There were no cheapie ebay cylinder fillers then and I wouldn't use one now if I was doing it all again.

The Mercedes conversion will have a 90 litre underslung tank with 80% fill, safety valve etc etc built in.

We do carry a small Dutch gas cylinder and regulator in the trailer just in case we run out, but so far it remains unused.

I can see the attraction of the cheapie filler adaptors, but they do allow for stupidity or ignorance in the filling process which our tanks don't, and that is where the danger lays. Quality of construction may also be questionable, certainly the mechanical leverage allowed on some fillers must be straining the brass components.

Peter


----------



## maingate (Mar 18, 2016)

As I have wandered through life, I have seen many things. What never ceases to amaze me is the stupidity of some members of the Human Race.

I am fully capable of refilling a standard bottle with an adaptor but sadly, there are some who only think they are. As an Engineer myself, I fully agree with the earlier post of Edina regarding people who I can only describe as Homicidal Idiots (of course they have not realised that themselves .... yet).

Did the participants of this thread know that Morrisons banned the filling of gas bottles on their forecourts? They did not see the funny side of an idiotic camper setting it ablaze.

I will now retire and watch you kids squabble ...... from a safe distance naturally.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 18, 2016)

I always find it entertaining to read the claptrap posted by posters who consider they are allegedly more than competent than anybody else other than common sense


----------



## maingate (Mar 18, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> I always find it entertaining to read the claptrap posted by posters who consider they are allegedly more than competent than anybody else other than common sense



I would be captivated to read about your wonderful life that has given you such understanding and experience (see your earlier quote beneath). Have you any plans to turn it into a novel? Would it be similar to a James Bond story? Could I have your autograph please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






"The usual scaremongering comments from those with no understanding or experience. I say no more"


----------



## pughed2 (Mar 18, 2016)

*Any Common Sense Around?*

Surely this whole argument about what is or is not legal is pointless. If you use unauthorised adaptors etc to refill abroad, and you get incinerated, please do not return to complain after. There are numerous other safe ideas. For example I continue abroad with my two legal 3.9 calor cylinders, and when they run out switch over to individual camping gaz stoves which fill any gap till I get home. OR you could by a continental cylinder complete to fill in. The safety rules over lpg are there to keep you alive. If you break the rules, and should get freeze burns from lpg or get incinerated, what can one say........steve bristol


----------



## Dowel (Mar 18, 2016)

There are a couple of links to the Morrisons incident in May 2014. The first has a picture of the caravan with a long length of hose connecting cylinder(s) to a fill point in the door:

Eccles: Couple blasted in petrol station explosion thank the dynamic duo who saved their lives - Manchester Evening News

Eccles Morrison's camper van LPG fire: Hero gran Edith Ellison rescued camper van driver who was engulfed in flames - Manchester Evening News

Discussion on another forum about this in June 2014. Hope it is ok to link to this here particularly the post by "tonyidle" on page 3 where he describes a poor installation of Gaslow bottles which, I quote,

_"had been installed by qualified professionals (I have the original invoice and gas certificate) "_

and subsequently inspected during a habitation check:

Morrisons and LPG | Page 3 | MotorhomeFun | The Best Motorhome Club in the World (probably)

This would not put me off having a refillable system but shows one should inspect any gas installation, even by professionals, very carefully.


----------



## delicagirl (Mar 18, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> I always find it entertaining to *read the claptrap* posted by posters who consider they are allegedly more than competent than anybody else other than common sense




the problem with threads of this sort is that those of us who are truly ignorant about the issues involved here  don't know which post is true and which is claptrap......


I think the only person I would trust with my gas installation in my van is a GASSAFE registered engineer


----------



## listerdiesel (Mar 18, 2016)

delicagirl said:


> I think the only person I would trust with my gas installation in my van is a GASSAFE registered engineer



I think that scheme only applies to domestic dwellings?  Happy to be corrected.

Peter


----------



## delicagirl (Mar 18, 2016)

different engineers are qualified to work on different types of installations  and some are trained in caravan work and LPG  -  all of them on the GASSAFE site list their areas  of expertise....


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 18, 2016)

midnight said:


> How long ago was it since you signed the agreement that you recall.


The last one was 12 months ago for a new cylinder.


----------



## spigot (Mar 18, 2016)

maingate said:


> Did the participants of this thread know that Morrisons banned the filling of gas bottles on their forecourts?
> .



I always fill up at Morrisons when at home, they are the cheapest in the area.
Not been stopped yet.


----------



## midnight (Mar 18, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> The last one was 12 months ago for a new cylinder.



Can you find it and post it up.


----------



## Deleted member 56601 (Mar 18, 2016)

midnight said:


> Can you find it and post it up.



Warning - Don't post anything here with your details on it!


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 18, 2016)

Edina said:


> Warning - Don't post anything here with your details on it!


I won't be, but it is also unlikely that I still have it. I only had the cylinder for about a month until I had a fixed underslung tank installed. The cylinder was then returned (empty) to the original supplier for a pre-agreed full refund of the cylinder rental cost.  If I do still have it then I will post.


----------



## hextal (Mar 18, 2016)

These types of issue are always contentious, I suspect in no small part to the fact that there are 2 somewhat competing schools of thought.

The first being that there will always be an, albeit small, hardcore group of cretins that love finding ways to hurt themselves, and those around them.  As such, and if for no other reason than protecting those around them, legislation is required to limit the likelihood of them doing this.

On the flip side is the argument along the lines of "why should the majority of the people have to essentially be penalised on account of the odd cretin".

From my point of view they are both valid points.

Inevitably, the people that the legislation is put in place for are the very people who will likely ignore it, so does it help?

Another issue, leaving aside the contractual legalities (as I think they muddy the water) and the profit-maximisation, is the fact that in an increasingly litigious society companies need to protect themselves from prosecution as a result of the stupidity of others.  So weighing up the trade from selling LPG to motorhomers and people with gas take-off tanks (as opposed to LPG vehicles with liquid take-off tanks) against the severity and likelihood of an 'event' may lead them to the conclusion that the reward is not worth the risk, or if it is that they need to put in measures to protect themselves from prosecution on safety grounds.


Stepping away from the specifics and looking at all people individually, there is a phenomenon known as 'risk-compensation'.  The theory being that individuals have a fairly well set acceptable level of risk.  These will obviously vary from person to person. Increasing the safety of a task/item/situation generally leads to that person taking more risk.  

A couple of examples i've used before are the HK armed police issuing full body armour to their officers only to find the number of gun shot wounds and fatalities increased (as a result of the officers taking more chances).  A rail crossing that had cars speeding across it led Network Rail to cut back the tree line to give approaching cars better visibility of the track, the result being that the average car speed afterwards was higher (as they could see further).

So in making things safer, we are not necessarily always making them better.

Getting back to the specific issue at hand, I think filling calor type bottles (that don't have the safety features of refillable bottles) poses a number of risks the 2 main risks being correctly gauging the 20% but the much bigger risk being that I suspect (cretins aside) there are still a fair number of people that don't even know about the 80% requirement (it is this latter group that concern me far more).

Just my waffly thoughts.


----------



## midnight (Mar 18, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> I won't be, but it is also unlikely that I still have it. I only had the cylinder for about a month until I had a fixed underslung tank installed. The cylinder was then returned (empty) to the original supplier for a pre-agreed full refund of the cylinder rental cost.  If I do still have it then I will post.



That's a pity.


----------



## midnight (Mar 18, 2016)

1. Purpose of the Refill Agreement Charge

In consideration for the Refill Agreement Charge, the Company agrees to refill the Calor Cylinder(s) (“Cylinder(s)”) included in your order with supplies of CALOR gas (“Gas”) during the currency of this Agreement. *The Company will fulfill its obligation to refill the Cylinder by providing the User with a pre-filled Cylinder in exchange for the empty Cylinder, but reserves the right to refill the Cylinder by any other means*. A Cylinder(s) can only be exchanged for a similar replacement refill Cylinder(s) within the same category as the current Cylinder(s), otherwise a new Agreement is required. Please see our exchange policy for further details about exchanging Cylinder(s).

Now I wonder what they mean.


----------



## st3v3 (Mar 18, 2016)

POI Admin said:


> For example, it has been reported that refilling legal systems is no longer permitted by Morrisons. They have banned ALL refilling because of those who have refilled supplier owned bottles.
> 
> Sadly this is yet another example of the few messing things up for the responsible majority!



Surely it's another example of someone (Morrisons) over-reacting and banning something without actually thinking it through?


----------



## maingate (Mar 18, 2016)

st3v3 said:


> Surely it's another example of someone (Morrisons) over-reacting and banning something without actually thinking it through?



Next time you are in a Shell garage filling your LPG system, take the time to read the big notice near the Pump. It explains that you are *not allowed* to fill any kind of bottle *OF ANY TYPE*. The fact that many of us have done so in the past does not mean a knee jerk reaction by anybody if or when you are stopped doing it. Strictly speaking, it should never have been allowed in the first place.

And may I remind you that the Trade name 'Autogas' is used by the joint venture between Shell and Calor. Although I did hear that somebody has bought out the Shell half, which means that at some point Shell may remove all LPG pumps (as BP seems to be doing).


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

midnight said:


> 1. Purpose of the Refill Agreement Charge
> 
> In consideration for the Refill Agreement Charge, the Company agrees to refill the Calor Cylinder(s) (“Cylinder(s)”) included in your order with supplies of CALOR gas (“Gas”) during the currency of this Agreement. *The Company will fulfill its obligation to refill the Cylinder by providing the User with a pre-filled Cylinder in exchange for the empty Cylinder, but reserves the right to refill the Cylinder by any other means*. A Cylinder(s) can only be exchanged for a similar replacement refill Cylinder(s) within the same category as the current Cylinder(s), otherwise a new Agreement is required. Please see our exchange policy for further details about exchanging Cylinder(s).
> 
> Now I wonder what they mean.



I think it means they're a tad worried about losing money.


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> I think it means they're a tad worried about losing money.



Or maybe it just means that they will give you a replacement full cylinder, if they have one, or refill your current cylinder if they don't and have the facility to?


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

2cv said:


> I wonder what became of the former members posting on that thread.



Still here without so much as a singed eyebrow but as I only have 40 years experience dealing with gases, I tend to leave the comments to the experts.

Only heard of a few incidents with LPG but thousands with vehicles so maybe we should fill our cylinders but leave our vans at home safely on the drive as it is far too dangerous to take them on the road.

Richard


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> Or maybe it just means that they will give you a replacement full cylinder, if they have one, or refill your current cylinder if they don't and have the facility to?



Maybe.


----------



## janstevecairns (Mar 18, 2016)

Just fitted a Gas It 11kg refillable got it from Avon auto gas Bedminster Bristol
Good price £153 for the 11kg bottler and the gas locker kit so no need to drill holes in the van walls. Price was with 10% discount for collecting and paying cash.
First fill was at asda patchway for £10.27 just short of the 80% cut off,well pleased as my last 6 kg cost £23 so basically twice as much lpg for less than half the price of the 6 kg.
System very easy to safely fit, won't be long before I recoup the cost now that we are using the van a lot more on the "Adventure before dementia tour" it's brill this retirement, only a month into and having a great time no need to worry about time.


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

hextal said:


> These types of issue are always contentious, I suspect in no small part to the fact that there are 2 somewhat competing schools of thought.
> 
> *The first being that there will always be an, albeit small, hardcore group of cretins* that love finding ways to hurt themselves, and those around them.  As such, and if for no other reason than protecting those around them, legislation is required to limit the likelihood of them doing this.
> 
> ...



*And I suspect that they are contentious because there's usually an incompetent busybody online who starts name-calling.
*


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

Edina said:


> The reality is that a group of people have worked their way through the education system and, after years of training and experience in their field of expertise, have recognised the dangers involved with lpg and made their findings known in the form of warning messages.
> For anyone to ignore those messages, because some mate says you can get an adaptor cheap off ebay, is putting the lives and well being of other people at risk.
> 
> I know from my experience in the engineering industry that you’ll always get people who know better than the experts with their safety warnings; you can usually recognise these people by their missing finger or crushed foot, but ‘no bugger’s gonna tell them what to do’.
> ...



As a responsible grandparent I'd never take my grandkids there anyway! Shame on you for doing so sir

Woman sets car on fire at petrol station after using a lighter to peer into tank | Europe | News | The Independent!!!


----------



## campervanannie (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> As a responsible grandparent I'd never take my grandkids there anyway! Shame on you for doing so sir
> 
> Woman sets car on fire at petrol station after using a lighter to peer into tank | Europe | News | The Independent!!!



so your out with your grankids fuel is getting low so you leave them at the side of the motoway or road while you go fill up yeah right


----------



## hextal (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> *And I suspect that they are contentious because there's usually an incompetent busybody online who starts name-calling.
> *



Don't be so hard on yourself:lol-053:


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

hextal said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself:lol-053:



You're the one who's obviously incompetent. 2 litres =1 kg. Empty your bottle and fill it with twice the litres of the weight it carries in kg. What could be simpler?

(Apart from yourself)


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

campervanannie said:


> so your out with your grankids fuel is getting low so you leave them at the side of the motoway or road while you go fill up yeah right



Don't get low. Fill up before you leave. Unless you want them fried of course. My car does about 600 miles and the van about the same on a full tank, that's quite a jaunt to be taking kids on!
Oh, and guess what? Motorway services actually have cafés to dump them in.


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> What could be simpler?
> 
> (Apart from yourself)


What was that about name calling? :lol-049:


----------



## hextal (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> *And I suspect that they are contentious because there's usually an incompetent busybody online who starts name-calling.
> *





rambling rosie said:


> You're the one who's obviously incompetent. 2 litres =1 kg. Empty your bottle and fill it with twice the litres of the weight it carries in kg. What could be simpler?
> 
> (Apart from yourself)



:lol-053:


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> What was that about name calling? :lol-049:



Omg, another dumb lad. The point was that these posts get contentious because somebody invariably STARTS insulting people.
Then, quite rightly, they get it back.

 Comprendre?


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

Anyone been gassed recently? 

Richard


----------



## campervanannie (Mar 18, 2016)

rambling rosie said:


> Don't get low. Fill up before you leave. Unless you want them fried of course. My car does about 600 miles and the van about the same on a full tank, that's quite a jaunt to be taking kids on!
> Oh, and guess what? Motorway services actually have cafés to dump them in.



bet pedophiles love you easy access to your dumped grandkids thats novel when i am out with mine they are never out of my site filling up or not.


----------



## campervanannie (Mar 18, 2016)

Tbear said:


> Anyone been gassed recently?
> 
> Richard



yes but it turns out it was the dog


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

campervanannie said:


> yes but it turns out it was the dog



Yeh blame the dog we believe you.


----------



## hextal (Mar 18, 2016)

I'm still giggling about the fact that the word 'cretin' was used when describing a minority of people that don't have any common sense and someone has taken personal offence:lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


----------



## campervanannie (Mar 18, 2016)

runnach said:


> Did the alarm go off??



no i do the military thing and run round shouting GAS GAS GAS


----------



## campervanannie (Mar 18, 2016)

Tbear said:


> Yeh blame the dog we believe you.



OK hands held high it was ME


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

Ok as long as you did not try and bottle it.

Richard


----------



## wildman (Mar 18, 2016)

I used a refill adapter for years before I got my current van that has a fixed gas tank. Filling is exactly the same apart from remembering to turn the bottle off before disconnecting. Back pressure on the supply pump shuts off at 80%. I never managed to get too much in the bottle. If you have the intelligence to fill with petrol, (that has highly flammable vapour) then following the instructions to use a refill adapter is a piece of cake. For those to whom money is no object I doubt you would bother that calor et al are charging double for refilled bottles. If you don't understand it then fine but don't knock those who do know.


----------



## rambling rosie (Mar 18, 2016)

wildman said:


> I used a refill adapter for years before I got my current van that has a fixed gas tank. Filling is exactly the same apart from remembering to turn the bottle off before disconnecting. Back pressure on the supply pump shuts off at 80%. I never managed to get too much in the bottle. If you have the intelligence to fill with petrol, (that has highly flammable vapour) then following the instructions to use a refill adapter is a piece of cake. For those to whom money is no object I doubt you would bother that calor et al are charging double for refilled bottles. If you don't understand it then fine but don't knock those who do know.



I just pretend to use mine, it rids the place of undesirables. :baby:


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 18, 2016)

Which poster is the cretin?


----------



## Tbear (Mar 18, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> Which poster is the cretin?



We could carry that on until Phil closes the thread or?

Richard


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 18, 2016)

I don't think so as it's now just banter. Unfortunately some of those higher-ups, who think they no it all, do not like being brought down a peg
Common sense, a scarce commodity


----------



## GWAYGWAY (Mar 18, 2016)

POI Admin said:


> Breach of the terms and conditions of supply is a breach of contract.
> 
> Breach of contract is illegal.



VESTED INTERESTS , they do not want to lose out on the very large % profit margins they make.  Terms and conditions are not a contract, it may be implied that you agree but  in the absence of an actual agreement preferably in writing then it is just their  T &C's .   There are other companies that fill bottles with gas and BOC are the worst with their charges for hire. Ongoing charges made every year, they learnt that when they HAD a monopoly on welding gases.  BOC make nearly all the profit from bottle hire.


----------



## northernspirit2001 (Mar 18, 2016)

TR5 said:


> No one should advocate, or indeed encourage anyone to refill gas cylinders which are intended to be exchanged only, if only for the fact that an uninitiated or ill informed person reading this could do so, and put themselves and others in danger.



I've got Gaslow now but used to use one of those "dangerous" adaptors....my memory is terrible and I got the amount I should have filled it up. The pump clicked off......at 85% full. So exactly how dangerous are they??


----------



## Tezza33 (Mar 18, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> You could not fill a cylinder completely if you tried.


Is that because of the pressure above the liquid?, it is something I always wondered


----------



## maingate (Mar 19, 2016)

tezza33 said:


> Is that because of the pressure above the liquid?, it is something I always wondered



Basically yes.

The pump will pump liquid gas into the bottle at a certain pressure. The evaporated gas will eventually reach the same pressure that the pump is capable of delivering. Either that or there is a Pressure Switch to cut off the Pump (more likely in my humble opinion).


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 19, 2016)

Piece of cake, with bottle completely empty fill up with double the kilo's in ltrs, this gives you a 20% expansion gap or 80% fill. Could not be simpler, its not rocket science. 
I've got a new gasit kit coming soon 2x11kg only because I've got some spare cash and the other method of refilling was only temporary. Saved a fortune though lol


----------



## Hellfire (Mar 19, 2016)

It's a real shame this serious subject should have been hijacked by those who seem to be more concerned about point scoring and abuse.

Whatever the legalities of refilling non-refillable cylinders, doing so will always carry an element of risk. It strikes me that buying cheap adapters on e bay carries risks in itself. If that risk only affects  the individual then so be it. But, when you are filling on a garage forecourt, you are putting other people at risk. Some on this thread maintain they're perfectly competent to do this. That may or may not be the case but I don't want to be close to you when you do make a mistake.

What bothers me is that any such accident could well lead to more garages banning filling by those of us who do have professionally fitted refillable cylinders. The responsible majority suffer as a result.


----------



## maingate (Mar 19, 2016)

Hellfire said:


> It's a real shame this serious subject should have been hijacked by those who seem to be more concerned about point scoring and abuse.
> 
> Whatever the legalities of refilling non-refillable cylinders, doing so will always carry an element of risk. It strikes me that buying cheap adapters on e bay carries risks in itself. If that risk only affects  the individual then so be it. But, when you are filling on a garage forecourt, you are putting other people at risk. Some on this thread maintain they're perfectly competent to do this. That may or may not be the case but I don't want to be close to you when you do make a mistake.
> 
> What bothers me is that any such accident could well lead to more garages banning filling by those of us who do have professionally fitted refillable cylinders. *The responsible majority suffer as a result*.



That point has been put over in the past but it is ignored. I suppose in some cases these people may have no option as they have limited funds and cannot afford to purchase refillables or exchange bottles. They know what they are doing is not permitted. It makes me wonder what other corners they are cutting?


----------



## barryd (Mar 19, 2016)

My single 11kg Gaslow cost £250 all in with a French Adaptor and fitted by a Gaslow dealer with a filler on the side.  This was 7 years ago and I think it paid for itself within a year.

All I have to do is fit the nozzle and press the button.  Dont have to think about how many litres I am putting in or if I am going to blow myself up (Some may wish that I would blow myself up but thats another story).

How can any method of filling where you have to think about what your putting in and "assume" your bottle is empty be fool proof?  

I dont buy into the fact that some cant afford it either.  If you can afford to run a motorhome and you use the van for long periods of time you would be daft not to as it will save you money long term and if your only using it two weeks of the year then its not worth bothering filling anything, just use a calor.


----------



## st3v3 (Mar 19, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> You could not fill a cylinder completely if you tried.



Yea, surely it's always got air in it?


----------



## wildman (Mar 19, 2016)

Hellfire said:


> It's a real shame this serious subject should have been hijacked by those who seem to be more concerned about point scoring and abuse.
> 
> Whatever the legalities of refilling non-refillable cylinders, doing so will always carry an element of risk. It strikes me that buying cheap adapters on e bay carries risks in itself. If that risk only affects  the individual then so be it. But, when you are filling on a garage forecourt, you are putting other people at risk. Some on this thread maintain they're perfectly competent to do this. That may or may not be the case but I don't want to be close to you when you do make a mistake.
> 
> What bothers me is that any such accident could well lead to more garages banning filling by those of us who do have professionally fitted refillable cylinders. The responsible majority suffer as a result.


I have yet to see a poor quality adapter advertised on ebay and I have seen a lot in use that are well made and have instructions stamped on them.  Refilling with an adapter is no more or less risky than using a gaslow system when a proper adapter, not a home made jobbie is used end of story.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 19, 2016)

st3v3 said:


> Yea, surely it's always got air in it?



Depends on partial pressure and temperature so when you have a different hot gases due to it being compressed it is difficult to get it all to turn back to a liquid. As many countries mix various different forms of LPG together it would be impossible to calculate. So a pump can be set to cut out at a given pressure, it will not equate to an exact 80% fill. How important it is to have an 80% as to an 81% fill I have no idea. I have driven the van across a bumpy field with the fridge still lit so LPG in its liquid form must have sloshed up into the reg and I am still here to tell the story.

Richard


----------



## midnight (Mar 19, 2016)

Hellfire said:


> It's a real shame this serious subject should have been hijacked by those who seem to be more concerned about point scoring and abuse.
> 
> Whatever the legalities of refilling non-refillable cylinders, doing so will always carry an element of risk. It strikes me that buying cheap adapters on e bay carries risks in itself. If that risk only affects  the individual then so be it. But, when you are filling on a garage forecourt, you are putting other people at risk. Some on this thread maintain they're perfectly competent to do this. That may or may not be the case but I don't want to be close to you when you do make a mistake.
> 
> What bothers me is that any such accident could well lead to more garages banning filling by those of us who do have professionally fitted refillable cylinders. The responsible majority suffer as a result.



Maybe that's why the name of this forum is called Wildcamping and not something like Campingforexpertsandtheprivalagedrich.

Wild camping carries risks.

Life is all about risk and risk cannot be avoided. No matter. Ask any real expert and they will tell this to you. That's why all real experts have liability insurance, just in case.


----------



## jagmanx (Mar 19, 2016)

*Not sure what your point is!*



midnight said:


> Maybe that's why the name of this forum is called Wildcamping and not something like Campingforexpertsandtheprivalagedrich.
> 
> Wild camping carries risks.
> 
> Life is all about risk and risk cannot be avoided. No matter. Ask any real expert and they will tell this to you. That's why all real experts have liability insurance, just in case.



Yes crossing the road is a risk.
I am sure I do not need to go on with such a list.
However surely we try to minimise risk.
Thus NO to refilling calor bottles etc.
I accept that even a good system such as gasit or gaslow have a risk but so does .........


----------



## snowbirds (Mar 19, 2016)

Would your car be covered for insurance if there was a accident using an illegal adaptor maybe ring your insurance and ask.I have the Gasit bottle with the 80% cut off,it paid for its self in two years.

Snowbirds.





wakk44 said:


> Here in Portugal today I took my friend to refill his 6kg calor lite bottle in the car.He has an adaptor he bought off of e bay which worked well at the LPG pump..The important thing to be aware of is not to refill above 80%.I am aware of the safety implications of using one of these and do not condone using them,I have a repsol gas bottle whilst over here which is easy and cheap to exchange.
> It cost the princely sum of just over €6,much cheaper than a calor lite exchange bottle in the UK.As already said I do not condone using these adaptors on the forecourt because of safety issues but I can see the reasons why people do.Apart from being much cheaper it's also convenient when in Europe as the adaptor is already fitted.
> 
> Perhaps if calor didn't charge such rip off prices there would be less incentive to use these adaptors.


----------



## midnight (Mar 19, 2016)

jagmanx said:


> Yes crossing the road is a risk.
> I am sure I do not need to go on with such a list.
> However surely we try to minimise risk.
> Thus NO to refilling calor bottles etc.
> I accept that even a good system such as gasit or gaslow have a risk but so does .........



Exactly "we try to minimise the risk"

"Thus NO to refilling calor bottles ect" is to exclude all of the risk of refilling and not just to minimise.

As you also pointed out "crossing the road is a risk" so do we then not cross the road at all which will result in no risk or do we cross the road by minimising the risk.


----------



## midnight (Mar 19, 2016)

snowbirds said:


> Would your car be covered for insurance if there was a accident using an illegal adaptor maybe ring your insurance and ask.I have the Gasit bottle with the 80% cut off,it paid for its self in two years.
> 
> Snowbirds.



Where are you getting that the adaptor is illegal from? Insurance companies are a law to themselves. What's ok today can always change tomorrow without any warning.


----------



## witzend (Mar 19, 2016)

*Fit Your Own*

80% Fill Valves available here LPG Tank Valves & Accessories


----------



## maingate (Mar 19, 2016)

witzend said:


> 80% Fill Valves available here LPG Tank Valves & Accessories



Those are for a liquid take-off tank, not a bottle. You are giving out misleading information that some divpot might try to fit. If you click on one of them you get this warning:

LPG Tank 80% Fill Stop Valve 300mm x 105 degree
   The  fill-stop fits an LPG tank that is 300mm in diameter and the valves are positioned at 105 degrees 
  from vertical.
  This valve is a very important valve in the LPG tank and extreme care should be taken to ensure the 
  correct valve is fitted for the right size of tank and angle of operation. 
    If you are in doubt then please email us and include the stamped information from the side of your old valve. 
***


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 19, 2016)

maingate said:


> Those are for a liquid take-off tank, not a bottle. You are giving out misleading information that some divpot might try to fit. If you click on one of them you get this warning:
> 
> LPG Tank 80% Fill Stop Valve 300mm x 105 degree
> The  fill-stop fits an LPG tank that is 300mm in diameter and the valves are positioned at 105 degrees
> ...


I think you are partly wrong, IMHO they are for a gas take off tank.  But you still correct in that they are not suitable for gas cylinders/bottles as they are for fixed underslung LPG tanks.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 19, 2016)

Campingaz Gaz 907 Refill Only | GO Outdoors

I make that a little over £5 a litre or ten times the pump price.

Richard


----------



## snowbirds (Mar 19, 2016)

I am sure any insurance company would like to see your last Habitation and gas check on any gas or fire related claims much like an Mot to give them a chance to duck out of the claim.

Snowbirds.


----------



## witzend (Mar 19, 2016)

maingate said:


> Those are for a liquid take-off tank,



Wrong read the description   why would a liquid take off tank need a 80% shut off


----------



## midnight (Mar 19, 2016)

witzend said:


> Wrong read the description   why would a liquid take off tank need a 80% shut off



All lpg tanks and cylinders are only filled to 80% regardless. This is to allow for expansion of the liquid lpg. A pressure relief valve is fitted in case the pressure inside the tank is in danger of exceeding the design pressure of the tank. It will open below the design pressure and release gas vapor so that the pressure inside the tank can escape. There is a pressure relief valve inside of the pol gas tap which is fitted to the propane cylinders that we have been talking about. It has a small red plastic cap covering it. When the pressure relief valve opens inside the pol the red plastic cap is forced out and lost. This is why you are warned that if the red plastic cap is missing then you must not use the cylinder/bottle, but to return it. Never except from a retailer a cylinder/bottle if this cap is missing as it would indicate that the gas inside has been venting at some time.

I do not claim to be an expert. I have researched the subject. I do have all my fingers and I do intend to keep them. I do not give advice I only pass on what I know through research.


----------



## maingate (Mar 19, 2016)

midnight said:


> All lpg tanks and cylinders are only filled to 80% regardless. This is to allow for expansion of the liquid lpg. A pressure relief valve is fitted in case the pressure inside the tank is in danger of exceeding the design pressure of the tank. It will open below the design pressure and release gas vapor so that the pressure inside the tank can escape. There is a pressure relief valve inside of the pol gas tap which is fitted to the propane cylinders that we have been talking about. It had a small red plastic cap covering it. When the pressure relief valve opens inside the pol the red plastic cap is forced out and lost. This is why you are warned that if the red plastic cap is missing then you must not use the cylinder/bottle, but to return it. Never except from a retailer a cylinder/bottle if this cap is missing as it would indicate that the gas inside has been venting at some time.



Thanks for that, I was just about to concede that witzend might be right.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 20, 2016)

Unsure that Midnights claims where true world wide I decided to do a little research myself. Found these two tales of when it went sadly wrong for the experts. The First Responder

Yes I know they where bigger tanks than most of us have on vans.

Richard


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 20, 2016)

snowbirds said:


> I am sure any insurance company would like to see your last Habitation and gas check on any gas or fire related claims much like an Mot to give them a chance to duck out of the claim.
> 
> Snowbirds.



Didn't know that a habitation check was a requirement for insurance, I've never been asked for one in 24 years of insuring caravans and motorhomes


----------



## listerdiesel (Mar 20, 2016)

There may be a few American motorhome owners on here that run their petrol engines on LPG, and we have three Land Rover Discovery V8's in the family that have LPG systems to power the vehicle.

Speaking from some years operating these, I can confirm that ALL tanks are fitted with the 80% cut-off valve, either as part of the multivalve on single hole tanks or as a separate device on 4-hole tanks.

As the sizes for vapour take-off tanks are limited compared with liquid take-off types, a few will modify the take-off pickup tube on a liquid take-off tank to collect vapour only by moving it to the top of the tank from the bottom.

This does not affect any of the multivalve functions, all the safety devices remain fully functional, nothing else changes.

The rather inflated prices for vapour take-off tanks does tend to encourage this practice, and the extra money is not really justified, just another 'motorhome tax'.

Peter


----------



## Jeff G (Mar 20, 2016)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> Didn't know that a habitation check was a requirement for insurance, I've never been asked for one in 24 years of insuring caravans and motorhomes


Talking with a guy last week who had just bought a VW van conversion,his insurance asked for a gas safety certificate.He never said which company it was.


----------



## witzend (Mar 20, 2016)

listerdiesel said:


> few will modify the take-off pickup tube on a liquid take-off tank to collect vapour only by moving it to the top of the tank from the bottom.
> 
> This does not affect any of the multivalve functions, all the safety devices remain fully functional, nothing else changes.
> 
> ...



Yes thats an idea to convert one of these Lpg Fuel Tank And Mounting Bracket Unused | eBay


----------



## Tezza33 (Mar 20, 2016)

Jeff G said:


> Talking with a guy last week who had just bought a VW van conversion,his insurance asked for a gas safety certificate.He never said which company it was.



Unless it is a conversion done by a recognised converter most insurance companies will  ask for one but only once when it is first insured, when I built my Iveco I had to get it checked by someone who was Corgi registered, I also had to take it to Horizons Unlimited a motorhome converter in Tamworth for a valuation for Safeguard to insure it, never asked for a safety certificate after that first time


----------



## Robert mcmurray (Mar 20, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> I don't think so as it's now just banter. Unfortunately some of those higher-ups, who think they no it all, do not like being brought down a peg
> Common sense, a scarce commodity


Good spelling is also a rare commodity, it's know not "no", only joking its just banter.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 20, 2016)

Robert mcmurray said:


> Good spelling is also a rare commodity, it's know not "no", only joking its just banter.


Real bad manner is commenting on spelling errors on a forum, but if you don't no, you don't know.


----------



## witzend (Mar 20, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> Real bad manner is commenting on spelling errors on a forum, but if you don't no, you don't know.



Second this statement Problem is some don't no nothing and won't be told nothing either


----------



## Robert mcmurray (Mar 20, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> Real bad manner is commenting on spelling errors on a forum, but if you don't no, you don't know.


Calm down,calm down, just banter. Touched a nerve there,mustn't upset the rank and file.ha ha.


----------



## maingate (Mar 20, 2016)

witzend said:


> Second this statement Problem is some don't no nothing and won't be told nothing either



Bad grammar is just as bad as bad spelling.

Just sayin'

Some very knowledgeable people (Professional Engineers included) have made valid points on this thread which have been ignored or derided by other members. My first thoughts are stuff the lot of you, if you need help, go to a Motorhome specialist and pay big money for someone to sort your problems out, stop asking for free help and then abuse people whose advice you don't agree with.


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 20, 2016)

Jeff G said:


> Talking with a guy last week who had just bought a VW van conversion,his insurance asked for a gas safety certificate.He never said which company it was.



Might be because it's a conversion, still they've only asked for a gas cert not a habitation check,
Strange how I've never been asked for either. Will have to check the fine print I think incase there's anything on there regards it


----------



## witzend (Mar 20, 2016)

maingate said:


> Bad grammar is just as bad as bad spelling..



Kettle and Smokey springs to mind


----------



## Tezza33 (Mar 20, 2016)

witzend said:


> Kettle and Smokey springs to mind


there is no e in smoky :idea-007::dance:
I don't like people commenting on spelling or grammatical errors, in these days of spell checkers and predictive texts we can all make mistakes, if you meant 'know' and type 'no' a spell checker will not pick anything up because 'no' is spelled correctly, why detract from an important topic because of a typo because this thread which was interesting and informative has gone sideways, do dyslexic members have less credible information than the ones who can spell?


----------



## Tbear (Mar 21, 2016)

tezza33 said:


> there is no e in smoky :idea-007::dance:
> I don't like people commenting on spelling or grammatical errors, in these days of spell checkers and predictive texts we can all make mistakes, if you meant 'know' and type 'no' a spell checker will not pick anything up because 'no' is spelled correctly, why detract from an important topic because of a typo because this thread which was interesting and informative has gone sideways, do dyslexic members have less credible information than the ones who can spell?



Where is Vwalan when you need him? Still sunning himself I bet. 

Richard


----------



## Wooie1958 (Mar 21, 2016)

Tbear said:


> Where is Vwalan when you need him? Still sunning himself I bet.
> 
> Richard





Probably fannying about down Morocco way with the other delinquents         :lol-049:    :lol-049:    :lol-049:    :lol-049:


----------



## snowbirds (Mar 21, 2016)

Maybe at the next meet we cold all put a sign on our vans of the sort of Gas system we all have on board ie professionaly fitted gasit, glowgas, or wing and a prayer from E-bay, and see who parks next to you.:lol-053::lol-053::wave::wave:must be worth a vote.:bow::bow:

Snowbirds.:sad::sad::sad:


----------



## Tbear (Mar 21, 2016)

snowbirds said:


> Maybe at the next meet we cold all put a sign on our vans of the sort of Gas system we all have on board ie professionaly fitted gasit, glowgas, or wing and a prayer from E-bay, and see who parks next to you.:lol-053::lol-053::wave::wave:must be worth a vote.:bow::bow:
> 
> Snowbirds.:sad::sad::sad:



So I take it that you always take all your vehicles to the main dealer and only have the manufacturers own parts fitted. You would never have generic brake pads fitted as we know that people are killed on a regular basis by braking issues.

Richard


----------



## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 21, 2016)

Some very interesting opinions on this thread,I have not changed my mind though,I would not refill an exchange gas bottle using an adaptor on a garage forecourt.I must admit the process looked very simple and straightforward when I first saw it done last week at the garage(and much cheaper) but I would still rather err on the side of caution and have a proprietary refillable bottle/tank with an 80% automatic cut off.

The consequences of an accident and potential injury to other people may be small but I would still rather not take that risk.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 21, 2016)

wakk44 said:


> Some very interesting opinions on this thread,I have not changed my mind though,I would not refill an exchange gas bottle using an adaptor on a garage forecourt.I must admit the process looked very simple and straightforward when I first saw it done last week at the garage(and much cheaper) but I would still rather err on the side of caution and have a proprietary refillable bottle/tank with an 80% automatic cut off.
> 
> The consequences of an accident and potential injury to other people may be small but I would still rather not take that risk.



A well thought out considered opinion! Why do we get so few???

Richard


----------



## rugbyken (Mar 21, 2016)

so if I put a sign on my van at my next meet  I'e "dodgy diy fitted self filled gas system " I might get a bit of space sounds good, 
     in work practises I'm old school measure twice cut once sort of guy but as wak44 says when he saw it being done " looked very simple and straightforward " I have been gas qualified for over 40 years and over the last twenty the regulations have tightened through the corgi years to the new gas safe but the original legislation simply said that gas work had to be carried out by a competent person however the definition of competent has gone from "trained" to a five or 6 part five year repeated examination specialising in lpg cookers space heaters meters and pipework etc, 
      I don't despise all regulation but some of it can be very picky I'e for years kitchen fitters could install pipework behind units and just have a competent person come in and make the gas connections then someone tightened up on the part of the legislation that defined gaswork as anything designed and fitted with the intention of carrying gas and all,of a sudden all kitchen fitters had to be gas trained at a cost of thousands per individual!!!,


----------



## lebesset (Mar 21, 2016)

Tbear said:


> A well thought out considered opinion! Why do we get so few???
> 
> Richard


depends what you think is safest 

if, like me , you have had 2 80% cut off valves fail you might feel that the safest way is to use any bottle , run it empty , then carefully measure in the stated capacity of the bottle ...hardly rocket science


----------



## snowbirds (Mar 21, 2016)

Yes Tbear,

I do have my van serviced at a main commercial dealer and all my gas setups checked every year with a full Habitation.If you spend £30,000 plus on a new Motorhome why would you trust a back street bodgers.
I have worked on all my cars and vans since the age of 19,and have used after market brakes and fluids like Girling, Lockheed,Castrol Duckhams oils but they where better then the ones from the main manufacturer and all race tested at extreme levels.But I will always stay away from any kind of bad practice around Gas.





Tbear said:


> So I take it that you always take all your vehicles to the main dealer and only have the manufacturers own parts fitted. You would never have generic brake pads fitted as we know that people are killed on a regular basis by braking issues.
> 
> Richard


----------



## Tbear (Mar 21, 2016)

snowbirds said:


> Yes Tbear,
> 
> *I do have my van serviced at a main commercial dealer* and all my gas setups checked every year with a full Habitation.If you spend £30,000 plus on a new Motorhome why would you trust a back street bodgers.
> *I have worked on all my cars and vans since the age of 19*,and have used after market brakes and fluids like Girling, Lockheed,Castrol Duckhams oils but they where better then the ones from the main manufacturer and all race tested at extreme levels.But I will always stay away from any kind of bad practice around Gas.



Two conflicting statements there.

I too worked on my own vehicles when I was younger but I did not pick which bits to do and which to get on my high horse about. I have never used one of those ebay filling devises but I have no problem with others doing so. People smoking around petrol stations when pumps are clearly in use, I have a problem with. Does this mean that we should be banned from filling our own cars up and have an attendant do so for us because some idiot has caused a problem in the past. I did see a Prat driving into our local garage with a cigarette in his hand which was stuck out of the window the other day. Should we be banned from driving ourselves onto the forecourt.

A lot of scare mongering has gone on, hyped up by companies with a large financial interest. If you want to reduce the number of dangerous incidents around vehicles look at what is actually causing the deaths and injuries, not what people think may possible happen.

Richard


----------



## Tezza33 (Mar 21, 2016)

Tbear said:


> Where is Vwalan when you need him? Still sunning himself I bet.
> 
> Richard


Vwalan could fill a bottle with a funnel if that was the only equipment he had available:hammer:


----------



## Wooie1958 (Mar 21, 2016)

It seems to be OK for the people that fill their ordinary bottles with the adapters to say that the ones that don`t do it are talking out of their arse.

However, when it`s said the other way round it`s wrong.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 21, 2016)

Wooie1958 said:


> It seems to be OK for the people that fill their ordinary bottles with the adapters to say that the ones that don`t do it are talking out of there arse.
> 
> However, when it`s said the other way round it`s wrong.



No! Some of us are trying to have a discussion based on fact and reason. Not inflammatory remarks.

Richard


----------



## witzend (Mar 21, 2016)

Whats the difference between filling a Gaslow type bottle and a Calor type bottle it's the same fitting that the pump connects to. Saying dodgey Ebay connectors isn't really correct they are just 2 gas fittings screwed together just like the fittings on a Gaslow bottle it's no more possible to overfill to leaking either at the forecourt.


----------



## KuyaAndAte (Mar 21, 2016)

witzend said:


> Whats the difference between filling a Gaslow type bottle and a Calor type bottle it's the same fitting that the pump connects to. Saying dodgey Ebay connectors isn't really correct they are just 2 gas fittings screwed together just like the fittings on a Gaslow bottle it's no more possible to overfill to leaking either at the forecourt.



The fitting on a Gaslow type bottle has an 80% full cut-off valve built in, a calor bottle eBay adapter does not!


----------



## witzend (Mar 21, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> The fitting on a Gaslow type bottle has an 80% full cut-off valve built in, a calor bottle eBay adapter does not!



Yes but why should one be a problem when filling and not the other the spillage can only come from the hose connection where it connects to the bottle and thats the same on both bottles most fittings where ever they come from are made to a standard. If gas escapes during filling it's more likely to be operater error.


----------



## midnight (Mar 21, 2016)

KuyaAndAte said:


> The fitting on a Gaslow type bottle has an 80% full cut-off valve built in, a calor bottle eBay adapter does not!



You are correct in what you stated. But keep in mind that 80% cut-off valves do fail or become unreliable over time. The fact that the lpg pump has a meter and the bottle is known to be empty will pose no problem to the person who has done the simple calculation in order to fill the bottle to 80%. There is no rocket science involved.


----------



## maingate (Mar 21, 2016)

midnight said:


> You are correct in what you stated. But keep in mind that 80% cut-off valves do fail or become unreliable over time. The fact that the lpg pump has a meter and the bottle is known to be empty will pose no problem to the person who has done the simple calculation in order to fill the bottle to 80%. There is no rocket science involved.



There is one flaw in your argument. A bottle can be affected by 'heavy ends', this is rubbish that can build up in a bottle in constant use. If you are not aware of this and fill by a number of litres then you are filling the bottle by more than 80%.

As you are convinced you are doing nothing wrong, you will ignore any advice against it and I am wasting my time. It is probably correct that thyere will be no nasty incident while filling. It is in the motorhome where the danger lies when liquid LPG gets into the system.


----------



## midnight (Mar 22, 2016)

There is no flaw, just a poor understanding by some of the process employed to refill a bottle. The assumption that is made is that to refill a bottle is to refill it to 80% when 40, 50 or 60% is more than enough for what is needed. Before you refill any bottle you must weigh the bottle when it is empty. The weight of the heavy ends will then be included into the weight of the bottle. An empty bottle is one that has had the gas tap fully open for at least 24 hours or longer. The original weight of the bottle can be found on the aluminium circular plate that is attached around the gas tap on the bottle, or may even be stamped somewhere on the bottle. The weight may differ slightly from that measured and that which is found on the bottle. 1kg=2ltr liquid lpg. This is because the weight on the aluminium disc was taken when the bottle was made and now it will have an unknown weight because it contains the heavy ends. That is why you weigh the empty bottle so that you now know the current weight. By comparing the two weights you are able to calculate the weight of the heavy ends which may or may not amount to much. You are then able to calculate how much lpg to put into the bottle. All bottles which are of the same size will differ in their weight. Make a note of the weight of each bottle. The aim of refilling the bottle is not to fill it right up to 80%, but to put an amount of lpg in to it that you are happy with and which does not exceed 80%. That is the starting point. Its not rocket science.


----------



## maingate (Mar 22, 2016)

Just who the hell do you think you are? Stop treating members like they are retarded. "poor understanding of the process of refilling a bottle"

You are backtracking now. You earlier said "run the bottle empty", now you are saying it *must* be weighed every time As for weighing, what will you use to accurately measure the bottle weight? You will use some Household scales or hand held ones you bought online. I have both types and neither is accurate. 

Your last post is just laughable after what has been said on this thread. Nobody and I do mean nobody will stick to the procedure you have just outlined.

As for not understanding, as a Mechanical Engineer, I have personally calibrated and checked calibrations of Industrial Scales from small to very large. The process is not simple. It is a long process throughout the min and max ranges of the equipment and adjustments may be necessary. Where adjustments are made to linkages/load cells etc, the whole process has to be started again from scratch until it is accurate. That is why it annoys me greatly when some totally untrained and naive person tells me that I don't understand a process of filling a bottle.


----------



## midnight (Mar 22, 2016)

Wow. Dare I ask have you yourself ever filled up an empty lpg cylinder at an autogas pump?


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 22, 2016)

I find it laughable when our Engineers come away with "I must not be question attitude".  I worked for a large British company employing a very large number of installation and service personnel .  In a monthly news letter a picture was included showing a 13A plug top wired.  Unfortunately I had to draw to the attention of our "Engineers" that it had been incorrectly wired, resulting in a amendment being issued the following month.


----------



## maingate (Mar 22, 2016)

midnight said:


> Wow. Dare I ask have you yourself ever filled up an empty lpg cylinder at an autogas pump?



Yes, I will be filling my Alugas refillable tomorrow, in preparation for the Easter weekend.

What's the matter? Is that the best answer you can come back at me with?

It seems shortcircuit is biased against Engineers as well as yourself and cannot come back with an 'on topic' reply either.

Never mind, you carry on with your thread, I'm off to play with the big boys.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 22, 2016)

I have filled both so have actual experience of the virtual identical process for both.  If you have no experience of both how can you have an informed opinion?

I have no bias against engineers, only those that because they have a qualification think they know it all and yes I have some good qualifications.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 22, 2016)

maingate said:


> Just who the hell do you think you are? Stop treating members like they are retarded. "poor understanding of the process of refilling a bottle"
> 
> You are backtracking now. You earlier said "run the bottle empty", now you are saying it *must* be weighed every time As for weighing, what will you use to accurately measure the bottle weight? You will use some Household scales or hand held ones you bought online. I have both types and neither is accurate.
> 
> ...



As an Engineer of any type I know you will know about tolerances, margins for error and accuracy. Also the importance of checking calibration. Do you really think that any of these devises are working to an accuracy of + or - 1% after a few years of service. I cannot prove it but I have a suspicion that many are little better than a guestimate or my £10 bathroom scales.

Richard


----------



## maingate (Mar 22, 2016)

shortcircuit said:


> I have filled both so have actual experience of the virtual identical process for both.  If you have no experience of both how can you have an informed opinion?
> 
> I have no bias against engineers, only those that because they have a qualification think they know it all and yes I have some good qualifications.



I am capable of buying an adaptor online.

I am capable of using it to fill an exchange bottle.

I am not in the habit of using a banned practise and one that may jeopardise the future filling by owners of refillable cylinders.

BUT YOU KNEW THAT.


----------



## Tbear (Mar 22, 2016)

maingate said:


> I am capable of buying an adaptor online.
> 
> I am capable of using it to fill an exchange bottle.
> 
> ...



That I can respect!

Richard


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 22, 2016)

really going to have to get someone qualified to fill my bottles I can't seem to figure out where the thingy goes


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 22, 2016)

better not fire up the Barbie just incase


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 22, 2016)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> View attachment 39212 really going to have to get someone qualified to fill my bottles I can't seem to figure out where the thingy goes



If that had been LPG, his face would have been burnt off.


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 22, 2016)

Got a 5% discount from gasit today  (wild camping membership) £376 all in for twin 11kg with remote fill and auto changeover valve. Luvly jubly.  :danger:


----------



## midnight (Mar 22, 2016)

maingate said:


> Yes, I will be filling my Alugas refillable tomorrow, in preparation for the Easter weekend.
> 
> What's the matter? Is that the best answer you can come back at me with?
> 
> ...



So, now you avoided the on topic question and we now know that you can fill an Alugas refillable one. How about staying on topic and maybe answer the question.
PS. No need to include your CV unless of course its on topic.


----------



## shortcircuit (Mar 22, 2016)

maingate said:


> I am capable of buying an adaptor online.
> 
> I am capable of using it to fill an exchange bottle.
> 
> ...



So although you are an "Engineer" your competences are no greater than any other posters on this subject other than some have actual experience which gives them greater credence.

"Banned practice".???

Enough said


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 22, 2016)

captions please


----------



## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 22, 2016)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> View attachment 39219 captions please


Can you refill my cylinder please ?


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Mar 24, 2016)

Watch it terry you'll end up taking someone's eye out with that, lol


----------



## 5andy (Mar 24, 2016)

Yup. She looks well qualified to fill your tank. You must have been relieved......


----------



## Robmac (Mar 24, 2016)

Jimhunterj4 said:


> View attachment 39219 captions please



If Carlsberg did gas cylinders.....


----------

