# Leisure batteries



## m30 (Sep 8, 2013)

Hi all,

we have 2 leisure batteries on the motor at present, 1 which was on it when we bought the motor, the other one i kept from our previous motor, they are not a matched pair.

The problem I have is the wife cannot/will not do without here hair dryer powered through out 1500 w inverter when we are wild camping or on aires, the hair dryer is rated at 1200w max but she uses it on the lower (unknown/unrated) setting.
We have 2 x 80w panels permanently fixed on the roof running through the PCM 2012 MTTP controller

I'm looking to buy a set of 2 new matched batteries, but after starting the old tinternet search, soon found myself baffled with all the different types.

The space I have would take 2 batteries of the following max sizes 370 long 180 wide 240 high.
I found the following but was wondering if they were the best choice for our needs and the panel/controller set up we have

813010 Varta Hobby Leisure Battery A28 12V 110Ah 81310 - Leisure Batteries - Varta Hobby Leisure Batteries

I know ther are other brands of battery, and I'm open to suggestions, but I have a Varta battery on my works van and its always performed very well, far better than the previous 3 which were all supplied under warranty by Fiat.

Cheers in advance

Stu


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## Fazerloz (Sep 8, 2013)

We earn our living usng battery power and have tried most makes of battery and without doubt the best make has been Trojan giving more than 4times the life of other batteries. You get what you pay for. To be fair we really do abuse them by deeply discharging them every day and Trojans seem to be the only ones that take it . Now we are using a Trojan scs225 130amp and charging with a Ctek MXS25 which is great.:cheers:


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## bearing (Sep 8, 2013)

I would never recommend anyone buy a 'leisure battery' they are not designed for the job in hand of living off grid. My recommendations would be to buy true deep cycle batteries which are designed for the constant discharge and charge. When I get round to converting my van I will be using two of these 6v batteries shown below, connected in series giving me 12v and 225Ah.




Trojan T-105's which compared to the batteries you linked to will give you the same Ampere hours for a similar cost but in a more robust and reliable way.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 8, 2013)

bearing said:


> I would never recommend anyone buy a 'leisure battery' they are not designed for the job in hand of living off grid. My recommendations would be to buy true deep cycle batteries which are designed for the constant discharge and charge. When I get round to converting my van I will be using two of these 6v batteries shown below, connected in series giving me 12v and 225Ah.
> 
> View attachment 16980
> 
> Trojan T-105's which compared to the batteries you linked to will give you the same Ampere hours for a similar cost but in a more robust and reliable way.



Great if you have a place big enough for them likewise with a genny and fuel.:cheers:


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## hextal (Sep 8, 2013)

Done lots of reading around this issue and trojans seem to be the ones.

Also going for a pair of t105s.


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## gaz2676 (Sep 8, 2013)

bearing said:


> Trojan T-105's which compared to the batteries you linked to will give you the same Ampere hours for a similar cost but in a more robust and reliable way.



why is that 
not disputing your word just trying to understand
sorry for being an uber newbie but...to me if a battery is manufactured by the same co the one with bigger numbers is better  
what am i missing????


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## bearing (Sep 8, 2013)

Fazerloz said:


> Great if you have a place big enough for them likewise with a genny and fuel.:cheers:



I'll be fitting them into a T4 so not the biggest vehicle, they're not actually that big, they're tall but have a smaller footprint than the batteries the OP linked to.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 8, 2013)

They are 6v 225amp  2connected in series gives 12v 225amp plus each battery is nearly as heavy as the scs225 which equals more lead and acid giving longer life. I have to fit mine under the bonnet of a Suzuki Carry othewise I would go down that route. On a side note running a genny using 1 gal of petrol a day  means i can buy a new scs 225 costing approx £200  after only working 33 days . So batteries work out a lot cheaper for me.:beer:


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## hextal (Sep 8, 2013)

I seem to recall reading an article recently posted on here. I think the main difference between standard car/leisure batteries and traction batteries (which are seen as much more robust) is the plate set up. Car bats are designed for max surface area to allow for large discharge/charge in very short time. The trade off being that to maximize surface area the plates are made thin to fit more in, so degrade faster. Traction batteries are designed to deliver power steadily so would be no good for cranking an engine but they don't need loads of surface area the plates can be thicker, so don't degrade as fast.

At least that's how i understood it anyway.


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## bearing (Sep 8, 2013)

gaz2676 said:


> why is that
> not disputing your word just trying to understand
> sorry for being an uber newbie but...to me if a battery is manufactured by the same co the one with bigger numbers is better
> what am i missing????



As Fazerloz has said, those batteries I mentioned are heavy beasts and that's down to to the amount of lead in them, the size of the plates allows the batteries to put up with the constant charge/discharge cycles probably giving twice the life over the likes of the battery m30 linked to. Most 12v campervan house batteries are hybrid in that they are based on starter batteries and are not true deep cycle.


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## bearing (Sep 8, 2013)

hextal said:


> I seem to recall reading an article recently posted on here. I think the main difference between standard car/leisure batteries and traction batteries (which are seen as much more robust) is the plate set up. Car bats are designed for max surface area to allow for large discharge/charge in very short time. The trade off being that to maximize surface area the plates are made thin to fit more in, so degrade faster. Traction batteries are designed to deliver power steadily so would be no good for cranking an engine but they don't need loads of surface area the plates can be thicker, so don't degrade as fast.
> 
> At least that's how i understood it anyway.



In a nutshell as they say...


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## m30 (Sep 8, 2013)

Thanks for the replys so far folks. 
I have a genny but dont use it much, takes up too much space and really isnt that convenient, and in my opinion they certainly aren't silent.

I wasn't aware of the Trojan batteries, but I'll check them out to see if they have any the right sort of size for my space.

Cheers

Stu


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## Firefox (Sep 9, 2013)

All leisure batteries are pretty much the same and they are pretty much the same as starter/marine batteries. 

It is a question of sticking fancy lables on them and marketing.

You can buy a packet of 12 paracetamol for 30p or a packet of 12 big name brand for £2.50. Active ingredients are identical. Same principle.

Get two cheap big lead acid starter batteries instead of a fancy brand.

Run your hairdrier off a genny or hook up. You are barking up the wrong tree trying to run something like that off a couple of batteries, any make you chose, it wont make a difference and you'll kill whatever batteries you do have quite quick with regular use. 

If you have 4 or 6 batteries in a bank you may get away with it.


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## ellisboy (Sep 9, 2013)

Agree with Mr Fox,there's no need to pay a fortune.Have a look at Alpha batteries site.Ive been using a 125ah explorer for well overa year,just added a second,£89 delivered.Arrived next day in a box.Good batts and good service from Alpha batts.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 9, 2013)

Where did I say I use the car engine to charge the Trojan battery when I said I use a cetek charger don't be too quick to jump to conclusions, and I didn't realise I had to work out my coatings to the nearest penny plus you can buy a fair bit of fuel for the price of a decent genny. I am sure most people got the main gist of my post .At times I do run a Honda eu20i so do know the costings and as I said its cheaper for me to buy batteries over the year.


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## Firefox (Sep 9, 2013)

I've got a Honda 1000w.

On economy it runs for about 10 hours on a litre maybe 6 hours under some load. I wouldn't normally run for more than about 2-3 hours a day, so it is quite cheap to run.


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## Fazerloz (Sep 9, 2013)

The OP was only asking about different batteries you threw gennys in .If you read my op you will find how I charge my batteries I was only posting on how durable the Trojan batteries are compared to others I have used


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## Firefox (Sep 9, 2013)

I'll revise that!  It runs about 10 hours on a tank the tank is 2 litres. So about 0.2 litres per hour.  A 5 litre can lasts ages.


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## bearing (Sep 9, 2013)

Firefox said:


> All leisure batteries are pretty much the same and they are pretty much the same as starter/marine batteries.
> 
> It is a question of sticking fancy lables on them and marketing.
> 
> ...



Trojan batteries aren't 'leisure' batteries though they are deep cycle traction batteries, a completely different beast altogether. I agree that leisure batteries are just rebadged starter batteries but to suggest that two cheap starter batteries is a sensible option is way off the mark and will be somewhat costly in the long run. I know of people in the US that have been using the same Trojan batteries off grid for five years and more, that is something you would never get with starter batteries.


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## maxi77 (Sep 9, 2013)

Firefox said:


> All leisure batteries are pretty much the same and they are pretty much the same as starter/marine batteries.
> 
> It is a question of sticking fancy lables on them and marketing.
> 
> ...



Cheap big starter batteries will never do as well as leisure or deep discharge batteries. Starter batteries are designed to give large current flows for relatively short periods where as deep discharge are designed to give much lower current at between the 100 and 10 hour rates. Starter batteries expect to be recharged  to full power immediately with a relatively crude charging system whilst deep discharge often have to last for days between charges and benefit from multi stage chargers. Starter batteries do not like deep discharges and very quickly lose capacity when treated like this. Leisure batteries are a compromise between starting and deep discharge so will happily start engines from time to time and also tolerate deep discharge, though not as far and as often as a deep discharge battery. 

For the normal user leisure batteries are perfecty adequate and as long as you buy from a reputable source there is probably little value in going for the premium brands.Technologies such as sealed or AGM in the opinion of many probably do not cover the additional cost. 

If you are going to need maximum battery capacity regularly then the extra cost for deep discharge (sometimes called traction) batteries may be well worth it with solar to extend the life. 

Generators are probably the best for running more than 1-2 hundred watt mains items regularly as high currents (250 watts is around 20 amps at 12 volts) even for relatively short periods suck a lot from the battery, especially when you consider 50%  should be your normal maximum discharge level for any battery.


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## Firefox (Sep 9, 2013)

Leisure/marine batteries are not "deep discharge", they are the same construction as starter batteries. This is a common mistake that is made. In some cases they may be slightly beefed up with thicker plates or reinforcement but still not deep discharge. Discharge them more than 50% at your peril! I think you may have been reading too many coloured labels or advertising blurbs! To have deep discharge, you need to buy proper traction batteries but they will be much more expensive. Check out the relative prices of leisure/marine and starter batteries. The leisure ones are the same price or only marginally more expensive than the equivalent size starter ones. There's a reason for that!


Source: My own testing of different batteries over 20 years and Sterling Power Products: What is the best battery to use for an auxiliary charging system? which confirms my observations.


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## coolasluck (Sep 9, 2013)

For what its worth i am preparing to go fulltiming so we decided to go for t105s as well,i have 6 in a midi coach being charged by 6 or 7 solar panels.For me i decided to go for the best batteries for fulltiming although if only using for weekend use and or holidays just go for a cheap lead acid.


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## bearing (Sep 9, 2013)

Firefox said:


> Leisure/marine batteries are not "deep discharge", they are the same construction as starter batteries. This is a common mistake that is made. In some cases they may be slightly beefed up with thicker plates or reinforcement but still not deep discharge. Discharge them more than 50% at your peril! I think you may have been reading too many coloured labels or advertising blurbs! To have deep discharge, you need to buy proper traction batteries but they will be much more expensive. Check out the relative prices of leisure/marine and starter batteries. The leisure ones are the same price or only marginally more expensive than the equivalent size starter ones. There's a reason for that!
> 
> 
> Source: My own testing of different batteries over 20 years and Sterling Power Products: What is the best battery to use for an auxiliary charging system? which confirms my observations.



Ahh I misunderstood your argument, yes of course if one is deciding to choose between a starter and a leisure battery then yes you may as well go with a starter battery. I still think that given this is a wild camping site then we are looking to be off grid more than we are on even on short duration breaks, to this end the use of solar and good quality traction batteries are still the way I'd suggest people go.


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## Tbear (Sep 9, 2013)

One small point to consider. Many motorhomes are often overloaded. Big battery banks weigh an awful lot. We get away with an 85ah ordinary lead acid but move regularly so rarely gets much of a discharge. Wife wants to come, she leaves hairdryer at home. 

Richard


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## m30 (Sep 9, 2013)

Well well, it seems I've opened quite a can of worms, with plenty of food for thought.

I note the Trojan batteries and there claimed performance and longevity, but at quite a hefty price.

So can anyone suggest an alternative? after reading the Sterling piece linked in by Firefox, maybe an unsealed lead acid?

Stu


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## maxi77 (Sep 9, 2013)

Firefox said:


> Leisure/marine batteries are not "deep discharge", they are the same construction as starter batteries. This is a common mistake that is made. In some cases they may be slightly beefed up with thicker plates or reinforcement but still not deep discharge. Discharge them more than 50% at your peril! I think you may have been reading too many coloured labels or advertising blurbs! To have deep discharge, you need to buy proper traction batteries but they will be much more expensive. Check out the relative prices of leisure/marine and starter batteries. The leisure ones are the same price or only marginally more expensive than the equivalent size starter ones. There's a reason for that!
> 
> 
> Source: My own testing of different batteries over 20 years and Sterling Power Products: What is the best battery to use for an auxiliary charging system? which confirms my observations.




I do hope you are not suggesting that I said leisure batteries were the same as deep cycle because I did not, in fact though perhaps not quite a eloquently I did echo the suggestions of Sterling. Leisure batteries are a compromise that gives most people a value for money solution to power storage.


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## maxi77 (Sep 9, 2013)

French chandlers charge even more of a premium for all their goods than British ones. I always bought my boat batteries from caravan shops in the days I had a boat. For that sort of money I would want something more towards the traction end than a normal leisure battery which was all they would have been offering I suspect.


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## 1978lovebus (Sep 9, 2013)

I have 4 x powersafe enersys VE 6v 155ah deep cycle batteries, 2 x 80w solar panels, and a wind turbine, for the price of the batteries I cannot complain, easily powers a 1000w grill oven with the sterling inverter saying Im kicking 80ah, and the batteries hardly move in volts..

They were on Ebay, not sure if theyre available..


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## cmcardle75 (Sep 9, 2013)

m30 said:


> Well well, it seems I've opened quite a can of worms, with plenty of food for thought.
> 
> I note the Trojan batteries and there claimed performance and longevity, but at quite a hefty price.
> 
> ...



Basically, you have a choice of buying expensive traction batteries, which is probably worth it if you are full timing or going north of the Arctic circle, or alternatively you can have leisure batteries which are cheap and shouldn't be discharged by more than 50% and won't last the course if used all the time.

I only go at weekends and a full week or two once a year, so I went for a cheap 180Ah "marine" (i.e. standard starter) battery off eBay. I've got room for another, but so far my 200W semi-flexible array has got it fully charged by 10am, even last weekend. Since the mains charger blew up (it was 36 years old, to be fair) and the split charge expired, I don't even have another form of charging and not inclined to fix either until we go to Norway.


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## maxi77 (Sep 9, 2013)

To be honest most of the stuff in French chandlers along the Atlantic coast when I sailed there a few years ago was just the same as you buy in the UK, even the French brand Plastimo cost more in France than the UK. In common with most Europeans the French do worry about the quality of their food, but in general buy the same stuff as the rest of us


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## doulsy (Sep 9, 2013)

bearing said:


> I'll be fitting them into a T4 so not the biggest vehicle, they're not actually that big, they're tall but have a smaller footprint than the batteries the OP linked to.



i have 2 large batteries in my T4, right at the back, boxed a bit in with a lid for a LB and some cooking stuff, but now i have added a second battery and lost the space for my cooking gear.


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## maxi77 (Sep 10, 2013)

So to paraphrase all that, the French buy poor quality goods at inflated prices to subsidise an over inflated state sector, but have decent roads.


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## ziska (Sep 10, 2013)

*Batteries*



m30 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> we have 2 leisure batteries on the motor at present, 1 which was on it when we bought the motor, the other one i kept from our previous motor, they are not a matched pair.
> 
> ...



I would be wary of using Elecsol batteries as they do not honour the guarantee. I had to get my money back via the credit card company. You can get cheaper batteries that have 3 and 4 year guarantees and last well past the guarantee. With a 1500watt inverter you could do with at least two 110 amp/hr batteries. I also find the Varta batteries to be good on my PSV bus.


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## maingate (Sep 10, 2013)

I heard a few weeks ago that Elecsol no longer trade.

Anybody know different?


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## maxi77 (Sep 10, 2013)

Sorry but my experience of France is not based on any booze cruise, never been on one. Rather it comes from visiting France for some 50 years doing business there for many years and making a few good friends over the years. I have enjoyed most of my visits to France, stayed in 'interesting' small hotels, eaten many great meals, but they do make life hard for themselves with the way they run the country. Mind you it has driven some excellent innovation, but equally driven some good companies to the wall.


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## bearing (Sep 10, 2013)

m30 said:


> Well well, it seems I've opened quite a can of worms, with plenty of food for thought.
> 
> I note the Trojan batteries and there claimed performance and longevity, but at quite a hefty price.
> 
> ...



I can buy 2 of the T-105s for just £8 more than the two Varta ones you linked to so for the price I know which I'd go for.


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## m30 (Sep 10, 2013)

I think I might bite the bullet and go for 2 Trojan 27 TMX 12v 105ah, as they fit the space I have almost perfectly.

Would this be a wise choice?

Stu


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## maxi77 (Sep 10, 2013)

m30 said:


> I think I might bite the bullet and go for 2 Trojan 27 TMX 12v 105ah, as they fit the space I have almost perfectly.
> 
> Would this be a wise choice?
> 
> Stu


Here is the data sheet, it shows the very important link between depth of discharge and the number of cycles you can expect. Trojan have a good reputation and this battery seems to be available at reasonable prices for the size,

http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/27TMX_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

I can see no reason to try and dissuade you


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## bearing (Sep 10, 2013)

m30 said:


> I think I might bite the bullet and go for 2 Trojan 27 TMX 12v 105ah, as they fit the space I have almost perfectly.
> 
> Would this be a wise choice?
> 
> Stu



Looks a good compromise, fits well into what you need.

To keep the batteries in optimum condition you'll need to equalise them every now and again. Make sure you get into a routine, perhaps every couple of months of testing the specific gravity after a full charge. This can be done with a hydrometer and if there is a difference in gravity between cells (check Trojan site for values) then equalisation is needed, this will 'remix' the electrolyte as over time it tends to stratify[sp] it will also clean off the plates. 

Equalising is in effect a controlled overcharge of the battery and is also recommended at least by Trojan before you first use a new battery.


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## Retrovampire (Sep 11, 2013)

Quick answer....12v hairdryer! Under £15!


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## landyrubbertramp (Sep 11, 2013)

Retrovampire said:


> Quick answer....12v hairdryer! Under £15!



i got one of thease for my gf has she said she would not do withot a hairdryer lol but she said they dont get hot enough to work well also its like boiling wtaer if you use a 12v kettle it takes longer but still needs the same ammount of power, in the end for the 5 mins every moring i just connected a inverter to my statrer battery and ran the engine and at the same time got some heat in the veiccle and clearned the winscreen etc of condensation,


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## landyrubbertramp (Sep 11, 2013)

lol hi david your 100 % correct im thinking of useing the hairdryer as the heater lol gives off far more heat


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## maxi77 (Sep 11, 2013)

Try slipping the clutch using engine breaking to save brake fade going down the pass of the cattle with a full load, you get a great glow of the bell housing


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## m30 (Sep 11, 2013)

bearing said:


> Looks a good compromise, fits well into what you need.
> 
> To keep the batteries in optimum condition you'll need to equalise them every now and again. Make sure you get into a routine, perhaps every couple of months of testing the specific gravity after a full charge. This can be done with a hydrometer and if there is a difference in gravity between cells (check Trojan site for values) then equalisation is needed, this will 'remix' the electrolyte as over time it tends to stratify[sp] it will also clean off the plates.
> 
> Equalising is in effect a controlled overcharge of the battery and is also recommended at least by Trojan before you first use a new battery.



Hi Bearing,

could please go into a little more detail about the equalising process and the controlled overcharging?

cheers

stu


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## maxi77 (Sep 11, 2013)

m30 said:


> Hi Bearing,
> 
> could please go into a little more detail about the equalising process and the controlled overcharging?
> 
> ...



This gives details of equalisation charging., we used to do it every 3 months to submarine batteries. Up to 12 hours no smoking was hard graft in those days. Trojans recommended equalising voltage is on the data sheet I provided a link to earlier in this thread.

Equalizing Charge For Stationary Batteries


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