# MOT Failure, Handbrake HELP



## joebuck (Jan 7, 2010)

I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.

Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)

Thanks

Joe


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## biggirafe (Jan 7, 2010)

joebuck said:


> I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
> The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.
> 
> Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)
> ...



I can only quote from my KOntiki 640 using a Peugot boxer, It needs a good pull on but holds it fine.

However having said that after having the breaks serviced in August it took about 300 miles before the new breaks really bedded in to their best performance.

After that I tightened up all the linkages so that the handbreak started to come on with less handbreak movement. (hope that made sense)


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## rickboy (Jan 7, 2010)

joebuck said:


> I wonder if anyone can help with a recent MOT failure regards my handbrake. In the last few weeks I have more or less renewed or seviced all the break system (front and rear). I have a Swift Kontiki 645 on the AL-KO chasis but no matter how much I adjust things etc my hanbrake does not hold the van on a small hill which makes me think it will fail the MOT again. Everything appears to be working fine when all is stripped back but there stll appears to be something missing from completing the job successfully.
> The van is 3.5 tonne and I have read that the rear shoes are not designed to hold such a big van, not sure if this is true or not.
> 
> Any help would be good, (all the obvious things have been done)
> ...


Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
Or Or Or    -stretched handbreak cable    THe list goes on.
Good luck 
Rick


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## rickboy (Jan 7, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
> Or Or Or    -stretched handbreak cable    THe list goes on.
> Good luck
> Rick



And another thing!!!
If you have had the rear drums off,are the self adjusters adjusted properly.
The handbreak should hold the van if all is well.


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## maingate (Jan 7, 2010)

Roughen up the Ferodo on the brake shoes and take it very gently to the MOT station. It will work better for a very short while.

As rickboy says, check the contact area when the brakes are applied. Put some chalk on the shoes, refit the drum and pull the handbrake on. Remove the drum and see how much chalk has been transferred.


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## joebuck (Jan 7, 2010)

biggirafe said:


> I can only quote from my KOntiki 640 using a Peugot boxer, It needs a good pull on but holds it fine.
> 
> However having said that after having the breaks serviced in August it took about 300 miles before the new breaks really bedded in to their best performance.
> 
> After that I tightened up all the linkages so that the handbreak started to come on with less handbreak movement. (hope that made sense)



thanks for your comments, I have heard about new brakes taking many miles to bed in but wondered if this was linked to how well the handbrake operated.
The problem I have is that I am only able to drive to the MOT station so I will be unable to drive a long way. 
Thank You


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## biggirafe (Jan 7, 2010)

joebuck said:


> thanks for your comments, I have heard about new brakes taking many miles to bed in but wondered if this was linked to how well the handbrake operated.
> The problem I have is that I am only able to drive to the MOT station so I will be unable to drive a long way.
> Thank You



It could be the problem but as Rickboy says there could be many things causing this issue, or maybe in an old van a combination of many small things is more likely.

If as Maingate says you use some chalk you should be able to see how much of the brake shoe is making contact with the drum, if the drum is old but the shoe is new you often only get partial contact until they have worn in. If this is the case I would say replacing the drum is the only proper thing to do, but if funds don't allow then again you could do as Maingate says and rough up the shoe before the MOT or a trick I have used is to drive a few miles holding the handbrake on to wear them in quickly. This would be a last resort and I'm sure this will get some comments 

But also take Rickboys advise and make sure its nothing as simple as the self adjusters not taking up the slack or a weeping slave cylinder

Good luck


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## joebuck (Jan 7, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
> Or Or Or    -stretched handbreak cable    THe list goes on.
> Good luck
> Rick[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Deleted member 3270 (Jan 8, 2010)

Just one other thing you could try that as not been mentioned and could solve your problem, is to release the adjustment fully on the hand brake cable and then manually adjust the adjusters inside the drums and the re-adjust the hand brake cable 
hope this helps
regards keith.


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## rickboy (Jan 8, 2010)

*Handbreak*



joebuck said:


> rickboy said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what base van you have but some have a drum handbreak and disc rear brakes.If the handbreak is not used much they rust up the shoes and disintigrate inside the hidden drum or you may have a slight brake fluid contamination from a leaking cylinder.
> ...


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## maingate (Jan 8, 2010)

I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.

If your drums are worn then it is virtually impossible to adjust and then fit the drum as there is a lip on the drum. The hole only needs to be about 1/4" diameter.

Make sure the adjusting mechanism is free before you start though as you may get the shoes binding and you cannot back them off again.


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## ajs (Jan 8, 2010)

maingate said:


> I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.
> 
> .


 
 as an ex girling marketeer... i concur... what a sheeetload of crap they are.

that's probably you problem slowstuck... do you have long foot peddle travel too

 reargards
aj


_ you could spend 1/2 an hour pulling the hand brake on and off and then another 1/2 an hour pumping yer foot brake...see if the bastids attempt to work_


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## rickboy (Jan 8, 2010)

*Girling man*

Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,so full braking to the rear is only  fully activated under load.Ths can be adjusted ,its just a rod/spring.
Why oh why has mechanical life got so complicated.Small gains for major pain and complexity.I like the modern ideas if only they never went wrong,but they do and they are such a pain to fix!!!!!
I'am going back to my cave now.
Rick


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## rickboy (Jan 8, 2010)

maingate said:


> I have yet to come across self adjusters that work properly. Years ago, I used to remove the brake drum, drill a hole in the outer face of it in a suitable position so that I could use a terminal screwdriver to manually adjust the wheel on the automatic adjuster.
> 
> If your drums are worn then it is virtually impossible to adjust and then fit the drum as there is a lip on the drum. The hole only needs to be about 1/4" diameter.
> 
> Make sure the adjusting mechanism is free before you start though as you may get the shoes binding and you cannot back them off again.



  Access from the rear via grommets.  STOP snigering!!


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## maingate (Jan 8, 2010)

There were no grommets in my day young man. 

Chariots would have been more reliable if we had grommets. 

I believe Nick Park invented them.


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## rickboy (Jan 8, 2010)

*Grommets*



maingate said:


> There were no grommets in my day young man.
> 
> Chariots would have been more reliable if we had grommets.
> 
> I believe Nick Park invented them.



First time I have come across too much Wendsleydale on the brake shoes

Son


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## Boxerman (Jan 8, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,so full braking to the rear is only  fully activated under load.
> Rick


The load compensator only applies to the hydraulic side of things, not the handbrake.
On the Boxer, the handbrake primary cable goes to a bell crank in the centre of the chassis, a rod from the bell crank goes back to pull on the secondary cable(s).
I found that the bell crank pivot on my van was partially seized, removing the bell crank and greasing the pivot pin made an enormous difference to my handbrake. 
If your Ducato is the "Boxer type" then this may be your problem.

HTH
Frank


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## rickboy (Jan 8, 2010)

Frank.You'r quite correct.I mentioned the compensator as this is often a reason the rear discs don't get the rust cleaned off on a quick trip around the block in off season(unladen).I should have explained more clearly.
Lets hope one of us will have the correct diagnosis for our friend ,with such a wealth of knowledge to draw on we should have.
Thanks Rick


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## ajs (Jan 8, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Girling man. Modern braking systems have a load compensator on the rear brakes,


 
you lost me after "load" trickytoy

have no idea what has happened to breaking systems over the past 30 years
.... but i do remember them bastid auto adjusters never auto adjusting.



regards
aj


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## joebuck (Jan 9, 2010)

A big thanks to everyone that has given advice, some of you people are so knowledgeable.... I wll now have to chat with my mechanic regards the next move and hopefully rectify this fault.


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## chesterfield hooligan (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi just to say when ajusting the hand brakesomeone has mentioned drilling the drum or backplate to acess the ajuster make sure the cable is fully slackened off then ajust untill the wheel is locked off slack off untill just rubbing do this both sides then ajust the cable you should be ok then 
Brian and Marion


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## LaughingHeart (Jan 10, 2010)

Had same problem. Load compensator was in need of strip down and service, all is well since. Talbot van, same on all other 'like types'.
Paol.


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## Norris (Jan 11, 2010)

I worked on cars and light commercials for years doing MoT repairs and welding. Handbrakes are a bloody nuisance. Often poorly designed and usually difficult to maintain, they have been the cause of more grief than almost any other part of the car. Here is the method I eventually arrived at.
Slacken the cable off a little and then take the drum off one back wheel, there is normally a large countersunk screw holding it on. If there is a pronounced lip inside the drum this can be the first problem area, sometimes needing two very big screwdrivers, or even small tyre levers, and the application of some vigorous hammering. Sometimes the shoes will come off too, no problem. Once the drum is off, use a small angle grinder to remove the lip. If the lip is really pronounced, think about new drums. Take off the shoes if necessary; this can be the second problem area as the springs can be very strong, I used to use a big screwdriver with a slot cut down into the blade, remove the auto adjuster and give it a good clean up with a wire brush and then use a little grease to lubricate it and make sure it moves freely. Clean up the backplate and the shoes and check that the friction material on the shoes is okay for thickness. Reassemble it all and then slide the drum on. Slide the drum off again and manually adjust the auto adjuster, then slide the drum back on. Do this a few times till the brake shoes begin to make contact when sliding the drum back on. Fasten the drum back in place. Take up the slack in the h/brake cable with the adjuster, and then pull the h/brake on and release it a few times.Pull it on HARD! This will centralise the shoes, and you will find that you can take the drum off again and take up a little more adjustment on the auto(?)adjuster. Do this a couple of times to take out all the slack between the shoes and the drum. After pulling the h/brake on and off a couple of times turn the drum to make sure it is still free before doing the adjustment. A little bit of contact will not hurt, the drums will probably be slightly oval anyway. Put the wheel back on and do the other side. Finally adjust the cable so that the brake begins to bite as soon as it is pulled up. It is a lot of messing about, and will probably need doing again next year, they get hot and dusty and have quite a hard life - most campers start off with a base vehicle that is much lighter than the finished article!  Incidentally, when applying the handbrake, you should push the button in when you pull the brake on and release it to hold it on. Letting it click up the ratchet quadrant will wear it out eventually!!  Have fun!!


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## listener (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi joebuck
I am new to this forum and intrested in your problem have you replaced your rear shoes.
as there is a possibility that the lining material has glazed and you now have two slippery surfaces trying to grip on each other. I have a Ducato with the hymer body C class GVW 3100kgs. and a couple of weeks before the mot is due I normally strip the rear brakes and give the linings a rough up with a course file or hacksaw blade then I give the drums a good rub round with some course emery cloth make sure all moving parts are working re assemble adjust   I find this works for me    My lining material preference was always Don Mintex because its softer, cant get it now so I am still looking for the right soft lining materialas I think a lot of materials used are too hard.  Good Luck


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## runnach (Jan 11, 2010)

All this rubbing of Brake pads etc...mentioned in the thread, and I fully understand why the glaze needs removing re efficiency but a question !!!

Arent brake pads harbouring asbestos as part of their make up ...so a well ventilated area no sniffing of dust is doctors orders ?


Or am I stuck in a time warp ?

Channa


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## ajs (Jan 11, 2010)

channa said:


> All this rubbing of Brake pads etc...mentioned in the thread, and I fully understand why the glaze needs removing re efficiency but a question !!!
> 
> Arent brake pads harbouring asbestos as part of their make up ...so a well ventilated area no sniffing of dust is doctors orders ?
> 
> ...


 

if i send you some old shoes ... will you sniff them for me please.... i fank you


regards
aj


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## runnach (Jan 12, 2010)

ajs said:


> if i send you some old shoes ... will you sniff them for me please.... i fank you
> 
> 
> regards
> aj



Errm no, and who mentioned shoes ??but if you send me a pair of slippers, pretty sure the hound can return them in a healthy state of destruction.

But the P&P's down to you 

Channa


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 12, 2010)

LaughingHeart said:


> Had same problem. Load compensator was in need of strip down and service, all is well since. Talbot van, same on all other 'like types'.
> Paol.



 Unlikely for a relatively primitive cable operated hand brake surely?


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 12, 2010)

channa said:


> All this rubbing of Brake pads etc...mentioned in the thread, and I fully understand why the glaze needs removing re efficiency but a question !!!
> 
> Arent brake pads harbouring asbestos as part of their make up ...so a well ventilated area no sniffing of dust is doctors orders ?
> 
> ...



  Yup, Yesteryear technology.;


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 12, 2010)

ajs said:


> if i send you some old shoes ... will you sniff them for me please.... i fank you
> 
> regards
> aj



  S'now n'ice.


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## listener (Jan 12, 2010)

*Lining material*

Most pads and linings these days are of an asbestos free material but you still need to be in a well ventilated area as you will always get dust when removing drums  and on the front calipers 
I didn't realise that you could still get brake linings and pads with asbestos in them
In a time warp possibly


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## Norris (Jan 13, 2010)

channa said:


> All this rubbing of Brake pads etc...mentioned in the thread, and I fully understand why the glaze needs removing re efficiency but a question !!!
> 
> Arent brake pads harbouring asbestos as part of their make up ...so a well ventilated area no sniffing of dust is doctors orders ?
> 
> ...


Dunno about time warp, but your reference to "Brake pads" implies disc brakes and the original discussion was about handbrakes. Your camper got discs on the back has it?


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## maingate (Jan 13, 2010)

Mine has Norris and as Derek also has a Burstner then he probably has.


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## Norris (Jan 13, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Unlikely for a relatively primitive cable operated hand brake surely?



The load compensator is part of the footbrake system and reduces or increases the amount of braking applied to the rear brakes according to the weight of the load on it, most vans have them though not all of them still work. The handbrake operates directly on the rear brakes at the drum, so is independant of the compensator.

Roughing up the friction material and the drums will not improve the efficiency of the brakes; if you think about it you are actually removing contact area so they will not be as effective. De-glazing is more effective, and this is why the brakes do seem better temporarily, but they will wear out much more quickly.


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## maingate (Jan 13, 2010)

Hi Norris,

I thought the whole idea of roughing up the shoes removed the glaze and gave a temporary improvement. It worked for me with some of the wrecks I had to drive when I had a growing family and no funds.

What you are really doing is making the shoe `snatch` on the worn drum. I believe that glazing occurs because the shoes have only been in light contact with the drum. Heavy pressure removes the top layer of material on the shoe and maintains a good braking action.

There again, I believe the Moon may be made of finest Wensleydale.


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## ajs (Jan 13, 2010)

maingate said:


> Hi Norris,
> 
> I thought the whole idea of roughing up the shoes removed the glaze and gave a temporary improvement. It worked for me with some of the wrecks I had to drive when I had a growing family and no funds.
> 
> ...



you silly boy... stilton  

 from what i remember from my girling days is that glazing is an [FONT=&quot]occurrence[/FONT] from the introduction 
of foreign particles having a polishing effect when drum and shoe (pad and disc) come into contact 

 the recommendation of the company was to remove and discard once glazing detected 

off te bed now...

 regards
aj


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## joebuck (Jan 15, 2010)

A big thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment on my problem with the handbrake. Due to the recent bad weather I have been unable to set about the task again. However I have just placed all the comments on a word doc and will now print out to study further with my mechanic.

The fact that I have been off the road for a few weeks has given me the time to do some jobs inside the van and fully appreciate the joys of getting away every weekend.


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