# No parking for us.



## Moonraker 2 (Oct 29, 2019)

I live near the south downs and noticed changes to car parks over the years. I have been up to Jack and Jill a couple of times for a walk and a scenic cup of tea. There is a height barrier so I park in the horse box space, but I decided to query it. 
This the answer:

"Following receipt of your on-line form, I asked the Parks and Open Spaces Team for their response to the query you raised. They told me that the sign does not include motor homes, as they are not allowed to park in the Jack and Jill Windmill Car Park."

That means cars are ok and great big horse boxes are too, but no one in a motor home, even during the day!!!
I have written to complain that it is discrimination and prevents me accessing the countryside. I am pretty sure the next car park at Ditchling beacon also has a height barrier. 
England definitely doesn't welcome motor homes.


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> I live near the south downs and noticed changes to car parks over the years. I have been up to Jack and Jill a couple of times for a walk and a scenic cup of tea. There is a height barrier so I park in the horse box space, but I decided to query it.
> This the answer:
> 
> "Following receipt of your on-line form, I asked the Parks and Open Spaces Team for their response to the query you raised. They told me that the sign does not include motor homes, as they are not allowed to park in the Jack and Jill Windmill Car Park."
> ...



Off course it’s discrimination, and it’s time that this was taken up.
But we have no one working on our behalf.
As from September 1 you have to pay £2135 in road tax then £460 a year for the next five years. The politicians are more than willing to take our money, then discriminate against us.


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## QFour (Oct 29, 2019)

*Discrimination* means treating a person unfairly because of who they are or because they possess certain characteristics. If you have been treated differently from other people only because of who you are or because you possess certain characteristics, you may have been *discriminated* against.

Looks like another letter saying you are being Discriminated against because you drive a Motorhome. 

Human rights treaties include a clause that says the rights and freedoms given in them must be applied without discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion, political opinion, national origin and so on.

That should certainly give them a heart attack ..


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## GreggBear (Oct 29, 2019)

Grieves me how we are treated. If the powers that be put up signs saying "no Irish" "no blacks" "no gypsies" etc they would be taken to task. As has been said, where is the fairness? Time we were treated like every other group of individuals. Never heard a reasonable argument against motor homes yet, think generally they just want to ban us because we want to go there!
You can't honestly say you ever saw motorhomes leave any site in nearly as bad a state as nearly every gypsy site they move away from, yet they now have laws to protect their lifestyle. Where are our bloody laws? We generally abide by the law of the land & usually cause no trouble where we go, just can't work out why everyone is so set against us. After all they are all happy to take our money at every opportunity they get....


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> Grieves me how we are treated. If the powers that be put up signs saying "no Irish" "no blacks" "no gypsies" etc they would be taken to task. As has been said, where is the fairness? Time we were treated like every other group of individuals. Never heard a reasonable argument against motor homes yet, think generally they just want to ban us because we want to go there!
> You can't honestly say you ever saw motorhomes leave any site in nearly as bad a state as nearly every gypsy site they move away from, yet they now have laws to protect their lifestyle. Where are our bloody laws? We generally abide by the law of the land & usually cause no trouble where we go, just can't work out why everyone is so set against us. After all they are all happy to take our money at every opportunity they get....



I cannot agree more.
But unfortunately we are the authors of our own demise Gregg.
You will find that not everyone on here agrees with your comments.
Yes there are a small minority of idiots, and others who simply due to inexperience simply don’t know better. But to discriminate against all is not called for, and grossly unjust and unfair.


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## mjvw (Oct 29, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Off course it’s discrimination, and it’s time that this was taken up.
> But we have no one working on our behalf.
> As from September 1 you have to pay £2135 in road tax then £460 a year for the next five years. The politicians are more than willing to take our money, then discriminate against us.


Just a bit concerned forgive my ignorance but "As from September 1 you have to pay £2135 in road tax then £460 a year for the next five years. The politicians are more than willing to take our money, then discriminate against us"what's this charge?


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## daygoboy (Oct 29, 2019)

In this country, you could say a horse has more parking rights than a motorhomer!


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## colinm (Oct 29, 2019)

mjvw said:


> Just a bit concerned forgive my ignorance but "As from September 1 you have to pay £2135 in road tax then £460 a year for the next five years. The politicians are more than willing to take our money, then discriminate against us"what's this charge?











						Fair motorhome tax
					

As a result of a technicality under new EU regulations, new motorhomes with a WLTP Euro 6D/2 engine are no longer subject to a commercial vehicle tax band in the UK. Instead, they are, for the purposes of Vehicle Excise Duty (VED), now taxed as a car. This will have a devastating effect on the...



					www.fairmotorhometax.org


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## mjvw (Oct 29, 2019)

Got it now just signed the petition.


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## UFO (Oct 29, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> are not allowed to park in the Jack and Jill Windmill Car Park."



so the question is ‘why’? Will be interested to see what their response is.  In the same way if they said no parking for white cars, people quite rightly would ask ‘why’.  Interesting that a horse box parking area is provided - so horse riders have more rights than MH / CV owners?

It would be interesting to know the management decision making process for installing height barriers and the cost argument as opposed to say spending the money on path maintenance.

When I challenged a National Trust property on their car park height barrier they responded with the ‘traveller’ card.

Hope barriers do not become a trend in the South Downs NP as it is our favourite local place, we were there last week for four nights.


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## harrow (Oct 29, 2019)

We just don't fit in anymore, were are not wanted, _I Danial Blake_


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## Caz (Oct 29, 2019)

Not just England, we came across exactly the same problem in Scotland in one place - access to the main car park was restricted by width (some of the 4 x 4s were having problems getting in and out) and there was a small area for about 6 horseboxes or minibuses. We parked our campervans there, but were probably wrong to do so.


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## trevskoda (Oct 29, 2019)

In this day and age a cam could be put pointing at barrier and a ph number at it so a motorhome driver could call and when they see its not a nasty bunch open the barrier and let m/home in,we could also get a code number to quote on the ph.


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## 2cv (Oct 29, 2019)

I think that these restrictions come about because a very small minority of motorhome and campervan users will abuse a parking area by setting up furniture, starting fires or running generators. Other users are less likely to do these things.
It is very unfortunate that the vast majority of motorhome and campervan users suffer inconvenience because of this small minority.


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## trevskoda (Oct 29, 2019)

Thats the same in all walks of life,the few spoil it for the many.


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## Markd (Oct 30, 2019)

The discrimination that we are suffering is one of the prescribed characteristics - age.
I don't believe that any of the local authorities that have banned motorhomes have actually done the proper analysis that they they should do before they say that there are no equality issues.


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## antiquesam (Oct 30, 2019)

Although I don't think all these height barriers are fair I would at least expect to see a warning about them before you get into a position that is dangerous to get out of.


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## trevskoda (Oct 30, 2019)

Inverter and this springs to mind.


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## daygoboy (Oct 30, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Thats the same in all walks of life,the few spoil it for the many.



So many Motorhomes around these days Trev. it doesn't even matter if
they're well  behaved, they take up space, too much space that it gets noticed.

When authorities are strapped for cash, why should they make provision for
a minority ( as compared to cars) when the ordinary car driver thinks he's
being short changed regarding parking.


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> Inverter and this springs to mind.



I have been tempted Trev.


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2019)

2cv said:


> I think that these restrictions come about because a very small minority of motorhome and campervan users will abuse a parking area by setting up furniture, starting fires or running generators. Other users are less likely to do these things.
> It is very unfortunate that the vast majority of motorhome and campervan users suffer inconvenience because of this small minority.



I do agree 2cv, but then I have seen others behaving poorly in carparks, and they are not discriminated against the way we are. Let’s face it we are an easy misunderstood target who show no resistance, some even accepting this. That’s what it all comes down to, plain and simple.


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## ricc (Oct 30, 2019)

the 18 volt battery ones are useful to have.,  specially when the same battery fits the drill , torch, chainsaw etc


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> I live near the south downs and noticed changes to car parks over the years. I have been up to Jack and Jill a couple of times for a walk and a scenic cup of tea. There is a height barrier so I park in the horse box space, but I decided to query it.
> This the answer:
> 
> "Following receipt of your on-line form, I asked the Parks and Open Spaces Team for their response to the query you raised. They told me that the sign does not include motor homes, as they are not allowed to park in the Jack and Jill Windmill Car Park."
> ...



You could always ask _"why"_.    The answer will be interesting and could lead to you arguing, if yoiu had a mind to, against their reasoning.

It is almost impssible to have these bans overturned but the wonder is that sometimes it does happen.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 30, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> I cannot agree more.
> *But unfortunately we are the authors of our own demise Gregg.*
> You will find that not everyone on here agrees with your comments.
> Yes there are a small minority of idiots, and others who simply due to inexperience simply don’t know better. But to discriminate against all is not called for, and grossly unjust and unfair.



This is true.  We are too ready to believe coucil hype that we deserve discimination because of the actions of a few.   This is the sort of argument that says it's ok to hang ten if two are guilty and overturns our long held tradition adn belief that is is better that ten guilty go free than one innocent is punished.

It is the truth, and I know it's the truth because I've used the FoI to find out, that there is no public outrage avbout us;   that there are vanishingly small numbers of complainst about us and yet we continue to feel guilty about our chosen way of holidaying.

Those who do campaign against individual discriminatory orders find a lack of support from motorhomers using all manner of excuses.  "_ I've seen such things happen."   "I know a resident who doesn't llike us."  "I wouldn't be seen dead in (insert relevant place)"_ and so on.

We do not support those who try to help.   As I said earlier, it is something of a wonder that sometimes arguments are successful.


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## GreggBear (Oct 30, 2019)

Never yet once seen a motorhomer wind down his window & throw a bashful of McDonalds wrappings all over a carpark, yet we are always the ones who get banned. I always make a point of picking up any rubbish I see when I park up somewhere even tho it is never mine, yet the authorities dislike me, the young scroats(& sometimes not so young...) who throw it all over are welcomed with open arms. Like you say, if we don't kick against it we lose. "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing...."


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> This is true.  We are too ready to believe coucil hype that we deserve discimination because of the actions of a few.   This is the sort of argument that says it's ok to hang ten if two are guilty and overturns our long held tradition adn belief that is is better that ten guilty go free than one innocent is punished.
> 
> It is the truth, and I know it's the truth because I've used the FoI to find out, that there is no public outrage avbout us;   that there are vanishingly small numbers of complainst about us and yet we continue to feel guilty about our chosen way of holidaying.
> 
> ...



Well we are all entitled to our opinions on here, my views are no better than anyone else's.
Quite frankly give me a remote location with stunning views and nearby hills to ascend, or coastal walks anytime.
But I do also enjoy visiting small towns sometimes and thats were the problems lie.
Generally speaking things are ok up here in Scotland, but there are over zealous councils here also.
Yes I find it strange when some take the side of the councils, but if thats their opinion then so be it.
If I was 20 years younger I would consider trying to form a body to represent us.
Thats what we need, someone to speak for us, and represent our case.
But I am in the winter of my life now and don't wish such a burden.
Barriers and signage are not was is required, some joined up thinking from those in authority is so rarely found.


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## GreggBear (Oct 30, 2019)

I prefer wilder locations too, but sometimes have the need to enter the concrete jungle,(supplies etc) & barriers etc don't just get closed at night. Many places can't even be accessed for an hours shopping etc now. Very annoying somerimes even when I don't wish to stay overnight. Not even allowed to park while I give the local economy my money, what other group of people would let that happen to them without a fight?...


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> I prefer wilder locations too, but sometimes have the need to enter the concrete jungle,(supplies etc) & barriers etc don't just get closed at night. Many places can't even be accessed for an hours shopping etc now. Very annoying somerimes even when I don't wish to stay overnight. Not even allowed to park while I give the local economy my money, *what other group of people would let that happen to them without a fight?...*



I cannot think of any of hand.
We contribute billions to our economy, and yet are treated so poorly.


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## trevskoda (Oct 30, 2019)

I thought i was the only one out billions.


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## T4Lyn (Oct 30, 2019)

antiquesam said:


> Although I don't think all these height barriers are fair I would at least expect to see a warning about them before you get into a position that is dangerous to get out of.


I inadvertently got caught in a one way system which ended in a quayside car park. The only way out was under an arch plastered in height warning signs! My only other option was to go back against the one way traffic but a nearby shopkeeper assured me I would get under the arch - he'd seen me double checking my height with a tape measure! He kindly went in front and beckoned me through. Tight but I made it without a scratch.


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## mickymost (Oct 31, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Off course it’s discrimination, and it’s time that this was taken up.
> But we have no one working on our behalf.
> As from September 1 you have to pay £2135 in road tax then £460 a year for the next five years. The politicians are more than willing to take our money, then discriminate against us.




Dont then buy new motorhome simples!!!

all joking aside yes we need someone to club together and complain to all the councils who descriminate against us as we have paid in all our lives to enjoy our older years but in UK it seems the Motorhome owner is the scum of the country (thats how they make us feel)by stopping us using places where the young boy racer with the mcdonalds wrappers out the window  is welcomed with open arms


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2019)

mickymost said:


> Dont then buy new motorhome simples!!!
> 
> all joking aside yes we need someone to club together and complain to all the councils who descriminate against us as we have paid in all our lives to enjoy our older years but in UK it seems the Motorhome owner is the scum of the country (thats how they make us feel)by stopping us using places where the young boy racer with the mcdonalds wrappers out the window  is welcomed with open arms


With the full support of some motorhome users Micky. That’s what is really sad. We are quick to blame ourselves, yet what does that say about us. To me it shows that we are considerate of others, not as some would have you believe.


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## Moonraker 2 (Oct 31, 2019)

Thanks for all your views. I was outraged to be prevented from enjoying the countryside like every one else, and I wasn't even thinking of overnight.
I have written back to both the council and the South Downs authority. No response so far.
I agree it would be nice to have a body that speaks for us but otherwise it behooves all of us to write and point out these unfair practices whenever we can. The more complaints the better. 
It is a surprising response considering the explosion of motor home purchases,  and even if they want us to stay in proper camp places at night what about during the day?
If only we had the excellent allowance of the Spanish who let you park in any car park and sleep overnight if you want.


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## chrismilo (Nov 1, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> I live near the south downs and noticed changes to car parks over the years. I have been up to Jack and Jill a couple of times for a walk and a scenic cup of tea. There is a height barrier so I park in the horse box space, but I decided to query it.
> This the answer:
> 
> "Following receipt of your on-line form, I asked the Parks and Open Spaces Team for their response to the query you raised. They told me that the sign does not include motor homes, as they are not allowed to park in the Jack and Jill Windmill Car Park."
> ...


Ditchling beacon has a gate closed at night also no overnight sign


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2019)

Moonraker 2 said:


> Thanks for all your views. I was outraged to be prevented from enjoying the countryside like every one else, and I wasn't even thinking of overnight.
> I have written back to both the council and the South Downs authority. No response so far.
> I agree it would be nice to have a body that speaks for us but otherwise it behooves all of us to write and point out these unfair practices whenever we can. The more complaints the better.
> It is a surprising response considering the explosion of motor home purchases,  and even if they want us to stay in proper camp places at night what about during the day?
> If only we had the excellent allowance of the Spanish who let you park in any car park and sleep overnight if you want.



Yes writing to politicians and councils as I have done is useful.
But a body acting on our behalf, and who validates it’s members is what is required. If we don’t get organised things will only get worse for urban parking.


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## suneye (Nov 1, 2019)

“motorhomes leave any site in nearly as bad a state as nearly every gypsy site they move away from”.  And this stereotyping is exactly how it happens!!!!


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## daygoboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Current thinking and action is to discourage not encourage use of private vehicles, and realistically
those used almost exclusively for leisure purposes are not likely to be given special
favourable consideration, quite the reverse is more likely. And lets face it, caravans and
motorhomes haven't the most sublime image in the eyes of joe public, many of which
would prefer us to disappear, and definitely wish us to clear out of public
spaces (particularly crowded carparks) even if paying for 2 spaces.

Sorry, but it appears to me that the truth is, that swannng around in vans will become an
activity of the past, and sooner rather than later.


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## antiquesam (Nov 2, 2019)

Although I find it frustrating that so many towns have a put up all sorts of obstacles to stop us parking I can see the point in some cases. Here in Portsmouth I have seen travellers move onto a car park because the height barrier had been left open to allow a bin lorry in early the next morning, and the Common is regularly taken over despite boulders and gates. On the other hand we were in the West Midlands earlier this year and wanted to see the Back to Backs in Birmingham and Coventry Cathedral. I emailed both Councils in advance explaining this and that we had a dog so couldn't leave it and use public transport. Both Councils quickly responded by giving us permission to use a truck and bus park close to the centre. The moral, I suppose, is that we shouldn't knock all Councils when only a few are sinners.


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## Nabsim (Nov 2, 2019)

It goes beyond what you are all thinking here. There are two large groups (most of us are members of one or the other) who actively work to get us stopped from overnighting unless on a proper camp site. These groups represent us at all levels. The easy way to do this is restrict us from parking, it may add the cost of height restrictions but that it, one off. Gates or moveable barriers need someone to open and close them, that’s an ongoing cost which isn’t wanted (why do you think so many bins have been removed.)

If you read other forums and Facebook sites you will see that the majority of owners will never dream of stopping anywhere except a campsite. Once on the site they use a bus, cycle, walk, taxi, hire car, toad to visit places. They are horrified that some people would dream of cooking in their expensive toys never mind using the toilet. Okay the last bit is maybe the minority but they exist lol

I know one or two people here do strive to get things changed but the majority of us do not want to get involved, it’s the same in every sector. We want change but we want someone else to make it happen. I am not having a go at anyone here I put myself in that group.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 2, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> Current thinking and action is to discourage not encourage use of private vehicles, and realistically
> those used almost exclusively for leisure purposes are not likely to be given special
> favourable consideration, quite the reverse is more likely. And lets face it, caravans and
> motorhomes haven't the most sublime image in the eyes of joe public, many of which
> ...



I mostly agree with you -  I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public.   Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "_I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...".  _Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.

As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't.   Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it.  Quite the opposite in fact;   the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us.  FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.

And this is true even when councils say there have been large numbers of complaints.     Pressed to show them (FoI) – there are none.  Lincolnshire for example said there were over 200 about motorhome overnighting at Huttoft Car Terrace.   There were none.  There were about 25 parking complaintsd for Lincolnshire entire and none of those 25 were about motorhomes.

Councillor Louise (I forget her name and the name of her council, it'll come to me if I need it) for her council said 90% of motorhomes left “effluence” behind when they left and the public was outraged.   There were no complaints and the public was solidly in favour of motorhomes judging by the comments in the newpaper article reporting it.

Keswick (in the Press) reported large numbers of complaints and the newspaper printed a photograph of the litter we left behind at Portinscale. There were no complaints and (at the request of one of our memebers here) the newspaper admitted that the picture was a fake;  that it was taken from “stock” and was not of the area used by motorhomes.

And I could go on.  A very few times councils have been persuaded to (continue to) permit overnight parking (Fleetwood most recently, Noth Devcon years ago - and a few more) so their lies can sometimes backfire but usually councils have made their decisions and then looked for reasons for them. Bye -laws in East Lothian and Aberdeen not approved by the Scottish Govt because of lack of evidence of their assertions of complaints from the pubnlic.  Qute a few more examples which don't trip off my mind right now.

We do need an organisation to talk on our behalf and I might be able to shed a little light on this some other time. We did have a couple and both had some success.


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## antiquesam (Nov 2, 2019)

I believe the original essence of this discussion was that it is increasingly difficult to find a daytime parking space for a motorhome in the countryside and towns, let alone an overnighting spot. The topic seems to have morphed into the regular discussion about the availability of overnighting spots in towns, which is important but isn't the topic we started on, which is a problem for all motorhomers, whether wilders or not.


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## GreggBear (Nov 2, 2019)

antiquesam said:


> Although I find it frustrating that so many towns have a put up all sorts of obstacles to stop us parking I can see the point in some cases. Here in Portsmouth I have seen travellers move onto a car park because the height barrier had been left open to allow a bin lorry in early the next morning, and the Common is regularly taken over despite boulders and gates. On the other hand we were in the West Midlands earlier this year and wanted to see the Back to Backs in Birmingham and Coventry Cathedral. I emailed both Councils in advance explaining this and that we had a dog so couldn't leave it and use public transport. Both Councils quickly responded by giving us permission to use a truck and bus park close to the centre. The moral, I suppose, is that we shouldn't knock all Councils when only a few are sinners.


Can't understand why they always seem to jump on us when the problem is obviously the travellers. In not prejudiced against gypsies, but you only have to look at an ex gypsy site to see the state they all get left in, yet the same laws that prevent us from parking anywhere actually seem to be in place to assist these gypsies in carrying on with the wholesale destruction they are known for....


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## antiquesam (Nov 2, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> Can't understand why they always seem to jump on us when the problem is obviously the travellers. In not prejudiced against gypsies, but you only have to look at an ex gypsy site to see the state they all get left in, yet the same laws that prevent us from parking anywhere actually seem to be in place to assist these gypsies in carrying on with the wholesale destruction they are known for....


I agree that we have got tied up in the traveller problem, but if they constantly search for sites and cause havoc then I can't see how a landowner can protect their property without causing an inconvenience to motorhomers and van drivers. There isn't a week goes by in Portsmouth when a car park or amenity space isn't invaded by the travelling community, who claim to be here for a family event.


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## Caz (Nov 2, 2019)

If I go somewhere for a family event I have to book into a nearby campsite or find somewhere to park where I am not breaking any Laws or causing any nuisance to the locals.

Why can't the travellers be made to do the same?

I know it's their lifestyle - but it's my lifestyle too!


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## daygoboy (Nov 2, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> I mostly agree with you -  I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public.   Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "_I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...".  _Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.
> 
> As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't.   Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it.  Quite the opposite in fact;   the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us.  FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.
> 
> ...



But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations. 

Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.

At a guess I'd imagine the average councillor when faced with requests from a disgruntled M/homer regarding parking provision
is probably thinking, I'm not biased  or prejudiced against M/Homers but why the hell don't you just get a car or better stilll get on the bus like the other 95% out there, you're giving me a headache!"

Yes, I agree the golden years are in the past, particularly as applies
to this country, which is the reason I use my van much less here in the summer,
I bet I don't get one like for writing what I see as the unpalatable truth.


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## GreggBear (Nov 2, 2019)

As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....


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## antiquesam (Nov 2, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....


I think you can do exactly the same as the travellers. Find a playing field or park and get your mates to join you. You then have a few days before the landowner gets a court order to get you off. The disadvantage you have over the traveller is that you have a permanent address where the police can contact you. The advantage you have though is that you will be welcome at a campsite, whereas your traveller will not.


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## vwalan (Nov 2, 2019)

lots of interesting things to read ,,,here.https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/what-we-do/


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## daygoboy (Nov 2, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....



Is it not the case that the Law applies equally, whether  it is applied equally? I don't know, 
it's just that some choose to ignore it, and say "watcha gonna do about it." And those 
that pay the Law enforcers say"Christ it's going to take months and piles of taxpayers 
money to call their bluff, we'll give them a bit of light touch hassle, and hope they'll move 
on to the next jurisdiction be it Borough County etc."


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> I mostly agree with you -  I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public.   Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "_I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...".  _Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.
> 
> As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't.   Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it.  Quite the opposite in fact;   the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us.  FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.
> 
> ...



Great post, many thanks.
i cannot agree more


----------



## GreggBear (Nov 2, 2019)

antiquesam said:


> I think you can do exactly the same as the travellers. Find a playing field or park and get your mates to join you. You then have a few days before the landowner gets a court order to get you off. The disadvantage you have over the traveller is that you have a permanent address where the police can contact you. The advantage you have though is that you will be welcome at a campsite, whereas your traveller will not.


Actually a lot of campsites seem to frown on self builds, & some also apparently have a no twin axle caravan rule....


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## maureenandtom (Nov 2, 2019)

antiquesam said:


> I believe the original essence of this discussion was that it is increasingly difficult to find a daytime parking space for a motorhome in the countryside and towns, let alone an overnighting spot. The topic seems to have morphed into the regular discussion about the availability of overnighting spots in towns, which is important but isn't the topic we started on, which is a problem for all motorhomers, whether wilders or not.




As you so often do, you have made me think.   And this time you've jogged my memory a bit.   Councils ban us overnighting - when we're no trouble to anyone - but often permit us through the day - when we could be a nuisance.

What came into my mind this afternoon - snoozing on Maureen's sofa - was that this is a silliness that has at least once been turned on its head.    In the Calvados town of Dives sur Mer there are two officially signposed aires with services and one town centre car park with no services.

The town centre car park permits motrhomes overnight - actualy any time except between 7 am and 3 pm.   Times when the car park would be needed for ordinary users but night-time for us.   I took a picture at the time but can't find it so this one is from streeview and maybe yoj can make it out.

"Parcing aux camping cars interdit de 7H00 A 15H00"









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					www.google.co.uk
				




I've used this picture a  couple of times with a council but never once had a comment from them.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 2, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations.
> 
> Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.
> 
> ...



Forgive me a little because what you say is on the face of it, reasonable.  What is unreasonable is that councils restrcit us on the basis of vague opinion.   If any complaints are made to councillors then they should be and are recorded.   If they are not recorded then it is unreasonable to use them to creat crimes.   TROs do not create crimes.  Byelaws do and there are many safeguards to councils being over-exuberant in their use of byelaws.  We now have PSPOs and they do create crimes and there is little safeguard against council use of PSPOs.

I do not want crimes created on the basis of vague impressions.    If there are complaints then let;s see them.  Councils can never produce them and no crime should be created.

As to councils acting in the interests of motorhomes then there need be no special interest to act on.   Just do not create unjust laws restricting us..   Helps with the budgets, too.  No discrimination, no cost.

I have no quiblle with a TRO honestly created.


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## antiquesam (Nov 2, 2019)

GreggBear said:


> Actually a lot of campsites seem to frown on self builds, & some also apparently have a no twin axle caravan rule....


Strangely you don't see many travellers in self builds, but I believe the DVLA now want conversions to have two windows on one side and Motorhome decals, as well as the usual interior requirements to change the vehicle to a motorhome on registration document, so who will know its a self build?


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations.
> 
> Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.
> 
> ...



Acting in the interests of Motorhomers in most cases would involve no more than to stop putting up barriers and idiotic no overnight parking signage. This would actually save them money not cost them a penny. What would cost them would be the cost of removing said barriers and signage that has been put up unnecessarily.

We are not asking for additional carparks just to be able to use those that are already there. As for budgetary constraints prior to the implementation of the draconian road tax from sept 1 this year with an initial payment of £2135 followed by 5 years at £460 for the cleanest diesels ever made, Motorhomes and caravans contribution to our economy was £9.3 billion a year. (The average Motorhomes includes £9500 of vat ).

As for us contributing to global warming with our diesel guzzlers, well the average Motorhom mileage is just 2800 a year in the U.K. All traffic inc roads, rail and air amount to 14% of our CO2 emissions. Motorhomes about 0.25% of this. Heating our homes with gas amounts to the same amount as this at 14%. The pollution argument has no basis whatsoever.

Quite frankly there is no logic whatsoever to what is going on in this country. Much of it is based on ignorance, fear of travellers, and an unnecessary anxiety over health and safety.

Yes to date you are correct not one like, but I am sure that will change. 
many thanks for your post daygoboy.[/QUOTE]


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## trevskoda (Nov 2, 2019)

I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.


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## daygoboy (Nov 2, 2019)

Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.

Unfortunately the authorities do think they're doing the right thing erecting barriers,
signage, etc. they're not all stupid numpties as some would believe, it's their solution
to a problem, often the traveller one...... and it's possibly the cheapest method to show they're
doing something proactively to their grumbling customers , often before the actual problem 
manifests itself in their own jurisdiction

I don't know how you can differentiate between groups of people carrying out
a lifestyle, from those carrying out a leisure activity, without contravening ethnic, racial
discrimination Laws of some kind or another. One hat for all it has to be.

Thanx for the like Trev. lol


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
> Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.



Ye I heard you have a larger than average driveway Trev.


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## daygoboy (Nov 2, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
> Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## maureenandtom (Nov 3, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
> so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
> they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.
> 
> ...



My bold in your post above.    The point I make is that there are no grumbling customers.      Never has a council been able to point to any significant number of grumbles.   Never.   The nearest a council came was North Yorkshire (talking about Scarborough) where an Assistant Chief Execuive stated to MMM magazine that while there was no hard evidence of complaints her memory was clear that there was sufficient anecotal evidence.     She thought this was enough to restrict freedoms of citizens.  We are to depend on her memory of anecdotal, unrecorded complaints and this is sufficient to create crimes.

They have come close to finding grumbles in recent times.   The PSPO legislation says that there must be public consultation before a PSPO is authorised.  Councils routinely apply this requirement by offering a qeustionairre.   In my opinion, and that of groups such as Liberty, the questioins can be, and are, loaded.  An example;   in Rother, the council asked the question something like:   "_Do you think motorhomes should be allowed to camp at the roadside for unlimited periods?"    _I think the required answer is clear.

I think we will see councils ceasing the use ofTROs to control us and will move to the easier production of PSPOs creating the crime of parking - a crime decriminalised by central goverment some years ago.

The caravan industry, of which we are part, makes an important conttribution to the economy.     Ths report https://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk...-contributes-six-billion-pounds-to-uk-economy says we are part of the six billion pound contribution.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> My bold in your post above.    The point I make is that there are no grumbling customers.      Never has a council been able to point to any significant number of grumbles.   Never.   The nearest a council came was North Yorkshire (talking about Scarborough) where an Assistant Chief Execuive stated to MMM magazine that while there was no hard evidence of complaints her memory was clear that there was sufficient anecotal evidence.     She thought this was enough to restrict freedoms of citizens.  We are to depend on her memory of anecdotal, unrecorded complaints and this is sufficient to create crimes.
> 
> They have come close to finding grumbles in recent times.   The PSPO legislation says that there must be public consultation before a PSPO is authorised.  Councils routinely apply this requirement by offering a qeustionairre.   In my opinion, and that of groups such as Liberty, the questioins can be, and are, loaded.  An example;   in Rother, the council asked the question something like:   "_Do you think motorhomes should be allowed to camp at the roadside for unlimited periods?"    _I think the required answer is clear.
> 
> ...



The figure as per the caravan and Motorhome club report is actually £9.3 billion. And that was prior to the hike in road tax.









						New Report Finds UK Campsite And Holiday Park Sector Generates £9.3B In Visitor Spending
					

Holiday parks and campsites around the UK generate £9.3bn in visitor expenditure and support 171,448 full-time employees, according to the report 'Pitching the Value'. Published today, it focuses on the economic impact of the sector, together with the health and wellbeing benefits of such holidays.




					www.forbes.com


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
> so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
> they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.
> 
> ...



First I hate to see someone coming on to a forum with a reasonable pov as yours, then possibly feeling that they are not being treated fairly daygoboy, so like Trev I have also liked your initial post on this thread. Just to encourage you to keep up the debate. 

you see were we don’t agree is you attempt to make what is clear discrimination against us look balanced and reasonable. I reckon that if you see something done often enough or are told something often enough it begins to look reasonable, when in actual fact its not. What’s being done to us has no real logic or is a solution to what you term a problem, us. The fact that we are seen as a problem initiates a process which although common is clearly wrong and unjust. Putting up barriers and signage is also not a solution to their perceived problem. All it does is move the issue elsewhere, and further reduces spaces available creating problems in those places that still remain. We have a situation were each year more and more Motorhomes come onto our roads with less spaces available for them.

It is possible to differentiate between us and the travelling community, who are a problem, who do cause serious issues, who do take advantage of situations which  they should never do, but who receive better consideration than us, and who have more rights than us. If most countries in Europe who have per capita more Motorhomes than us can provide basic facilities why can’t we. Let me answer that question. We are not seen as a problem or a burden in Europe but we are here. It’s all about attitude not fact, not being reasonable, or even pragmatic. It’s simply bonkers.

When I got my first van four years ago I could not believe how we were being treated. I never realised just how poor things were here.

Yes there are thousands upon thousands of places we can “wild camp”, and we are spoilt for choice up here in Scotland, but for those of us who like to visit a town or a city now and then things are getting worse year in year out.


----------



## trevskoda (Nov 3, 2019)

Never voted in my life,but want out as we do our own thing here,down south there in but still do there own thing.


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## daygoboy (Nov 3, 2019)

Of course I can see things from the point of view of the majority of us motorhomers..... that's easy.  I'm trying to see it from anotherangle. We might be correct in our claims of how much we put into the community, that generally we are well behaved, it's not us leaving the rubbish, we don't overstay our welcome, we park
considerately, we pay high taxes on new vehicles, I can't believe most in authority haven't been made aware of these "benefits" over the years, well if so then why don't the fecking authorities (apart from the enlightened few) acknowledge these facts with positive measures regarding making us feel more welcome, along with  making access and parking and facilities freely available.

In truth, even as car drivers we don't exactly reckon things are getting any easier.......do we? Plenty of lobby groups and vested interest parties.

No, I can only conclude that on balance your average councillor listens to his however few complainers/moaners with their anecdotes, and thinks he'll side with them that vote for him. I doubt the thought of being legally challenged by M/homers enters his mind or that it worries him unduly if it does, probably because not many of us have the resolve, time or money to follow through with litigation. Add to that the very negative attitude taken by the general public overall in this country towards the caravanner (and by association the motorcaravanner) and the problems for us are compounded. Takes generations for cultural attitudes to change and the way things are at the present time with austerity, they may even harden. I can almost guarantee that if I park in a local supermarket car park for any length of time some wag will go past and bang the side, it's that sort of attitude you have to overcome.
Will it ever change for us here, your guess is as good as mine!

I can say that even in France, the M/homers paradise as was, amenity and tolerance for us the M/homer is slowly being eroded, probably not noticeably so to M/homing newbies but for us oldtimers it definitely is.


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## trevskoda (Nov 3, 2019)

Some small villages here who own ground have opened up to vans as they know fine well we will spend some money,food fuel etc,broughshane for one used a old mill yard and put in the gubbins required,local shops sell tokens to feed the monster which is at the start of the glens.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> Of course I can see things from the point of view of the majority of us motorhomers..... that's easy.  I'm trying to see it from anotherangle. We might be correct in our claims of how much we put into the community, that generally we are well behaved, it's not us leaving the rubbish, we don't overstay our welcome, we park
> considerately, we pay high taxes on new vehicles, I can't believe most in authority haven't been made aware of these "benefits" over the years, well if so then why don't the fecking authorities (apart from the enlightened few) acknowledge these facts with positive measures regarding making us feel more welcome, along with  making access and parking and facilities freely available.
> 
> In truth, even as car drivers we don't exactly reckon things are getting any easier.......do we? Plenty of lobby groups and vested interest parties.
> ...



This is why we badly need a body to work on our behalf.
They would validate their members giving them privileges regarding parking in agreement with local councils. Look into parking restrictions imposed unfairly against us. CampaIgn for more chemical waste facilities, and dedicated Motorhome parking. Assist us with any legal matters regarding our motor homing etc. Hopefully somebody out there young enough with the drive and determination required will start such an organisation.

Currently we are served by bodies who are only interested in selling us Motorhomes or pitches on their campsites. These organisation have self interest at heart, and actually attempt to discredit wild camping.


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## Private (Nov 3, 2019)

I don’t believe motorhomers are being singled out any more than any other group of people.
We in the UK are living in oppressed times.

The government & their lackeys running the councils use every opportunity to oppress every group of people wherever & whenever possible all to the benefit of corporations.

They are shutting libraries at an alarming rate; they are introducing PSPO’s for trivial reasons & employing private companies to issue fines; they are running kangaoo courts to ‘fine’ people for failure to pay the ever increasing council tax on time; they are forcing disabled people to work; NHS workers (& others) have to pay to park at work; they are making driving prohibitively expensive & intentionally damaging our vehicles with ‘speed bumps’ & unrepaired potholes combined with ever tougher MOT tests; they are reducing the access to cash & have made new banknotes intentionally difficult to use; they are making every job more difficult to get into with unnecessary certification & legislation; it goes on & on.

I fight my corner more than most & receive hundreds of pounds in payoff’s & compensation over & over again but they never change the rules; they continue to use them against others who don’t have the time to fight.

The RAC & AA were motoring organisations for drivers (not just recovery services) & look at what they do to their members now - increase premiums every year until you call up & cancel at which point they offer you the proper rate.

If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism.

If you want motorhoming over here to be like in France, then you need to do as the French did in the 1700’s.


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## 2cv (Nov 3, 2019)

Some legislation is proposed which may make height barriers less necessary. Link


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## daygoboy (Nov 3, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> This is why we badly need a body to work on our behalf.
> They would validate their members giving them privileges regarding parking in agreement with local councils. Look into parking restrictions imposed unfairly against us. CampaIgn for more chemical waste facilities, and dedicated Motorhome parking. Assist us with any legal matters regarding our motor homing etc. Hopefully somebody out there young enough with the drive and determination required will start such an organisation.
> 
> Currently we are served by bodies who are only interested in selling us Motorhomes or pitches on their campsites. These organisation have self interest at heart, and actually attempt to discredit wild camping.



A good summation into what is required, unfortunately I suspect other Motorhomers
are like myself, in that motorhoming is something we're not that committed to, not to the
extent that giving it up would be so calamitous, or that spending what could involve a lot of
time and effort on fighting for the cause as it were, would be thought worthwhile. With perhaps 
little chance of much being changed, maybe the odd height bar, or car park restriction removed 
here, a toilet dump provided there. How long before many towns have emission zones or crit air 
equivalents, that won't help M/homers demands, "local council introduces low emission
zone, and provides aire for motorhomes" can't  see that kind of contradiction occurring!  
Even as things presently stand there are usually options, and  ways round these obstacles and 
restrictions, in my case I park outside of town and take the mbike in, I carry a topbox to fit the 
cassette, pizza express boy style.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry in rectifying the lack of provision of a local 
A and E department, or a cancer ward!  

I think I'd be correct in stating that wildcampers tend to be individualistic in nature, at least so when
it involves M/homing matters, can't see them readily forming lobby or pressure groups somehow.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry when it comes to rectifying the lack of
provision of a local A and E or cancer ward.


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## GreggBear (Nov 3, 2019)

Can't help wondering how long before these new laws will be applied to us...


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2019)

Private said:


> I don’t believe motorhomers are being singled out any more than any other group of people.
> We in the UK are living in oppressed times.
> 
> The government & their lackeys running the councils use every opportunity to oppress every group of people wherever & whenever possible all to the benefit of corporations.
> ...



I think we are off on several tangents here.
When councils put up barriers in rural carparks to stop you from parking your Motorhome day and night, you are being discriminated against. When they put up signs saying no Motorhomes they are discriminating against you.

The manifold examples you give are derived from cut backs in order to save money during this period of austerity. We are not asking for vast sums of money to be spent. Actually we are asking them to save money by not putting up barriers and signs In the first place.

As for us organising  a body to represent us, and this being deemed illegal, that comment beggars belief. The only organisations deemed illegal are prescribed organisations who threaten our security, or that are deemed racist, sectarian, or on moral grounds. I hardly think we would meet any such criteria.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> A good summation into what is required, unfortunately I suspect other Motorhomers
> are like myself, in that motorhoming is something we're not that committed to, not to the
> extent that giving it up would be so calamitous, or that spending what could involve a lot of
> time and effort on fighting for the cause as it were, would be thought worthwhile. With perhaps
> ...



Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.


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## antiquesam (Nov 4, 2019)

I think we may be getting a little paranoied here. Height barriers don't only affect motorhomers but any van driver with a height of over 2 metres. White van man should also has the right to use his van into town or to the seaside.
No motorhome signs are, however, discriminating against users and need to be justified.


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2019)

antiquesam said:


> I think we may be getting a little paranoied here. Height barriers don't only affect motorhomers but any van driver with a height of over 2 metres. White van man should also has the right to use his van into town or to the seaside.
> No motorhome signs are, however, discriminating against users and need to be justified.



Sorry Sam but I can only speak for myself, and I don’t reckon that I am being paranoid. I am not talking about height barriers that are put up for other reasons such as in multi carparks with height restrictions, Mac Donald’s drive through due to overhanging roof soffats, town centre carparks with limited space, or put up for safety reasons. I am talking about locations where in some cases the probability is that large vehicles other than Motorhomes would rarely if ever use such carparks. Examples such as the barriers recently put up by East Lothian at Prestonpans or the two sets put up at Moffats white sands come to mind. There can be no doubt other than to prevent us getting access why these barriers and hundreds of others have been erected. What I would concede is they are also barriers for the travelling community, who I suspect the councils in some cases are worried over.


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## daygoboy (Nov 4, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.



The point I was making is that motorhoming matters figure low in my list of things to be 
overly concerned over, provision of a local A&E dept. and local cancer ward on the other
hand rate highly,

The installation of height barriers to prevent access by the travelling community answers 
part of the question of why councils are reluctant to make provision for m/homers that's a given.

Until there's much more provision made for the travelling community then the situation will not change. Does the 
average council tax payer want to put his hand in his pocket and pay for traveller sites, especially 
if he might find it sited in his own back yard?


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## Private (Nov 4, 2019)

I wrote:
_"If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism. "_

You responded:
_"As for us organising  a body to represent us, and this being deemed illegal, that comment beggars belief. The only organisations deemed illegal are prescribed organisations who threaten our security, or that are deemed racist, sectarian, or on moral grounds. I hardly think we would meet any such criteria. "_

I was alluding to actually gathering to protest at a site, not just organising a group.
However your list of criteria for organisations that are deemed illegal shows how flexible & open to interpretation those laws are too.

I was once moved on by police on behalf of a security company for parking up overnight in a truck on an industrial estate; they used the 'terrorism card' as justification.


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2019)

Private said:


> I wrote:
> _"If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism. "_
> 
> You responded:
> ...



Who mentioned a protest group.
I am not interested in a protest group.
But in this country people organise protest marches every week.
I doubt if we would be classed as terrorists


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> The point I was making is that motorhoming matters figure low in my list of things to be
> overly concerned over, provision of a local A&E dept. and local cancer ward on the other
> hand rate highly,
> 
> ...



Daygoboy you are stating the obvious.
Obviously we are at the bottom of the pile in comparison to the NHS and other important depts.
But we are not asking for billions to be spent, just stop putting up barriers and signage in some locations.
This does not require anything more than consultation, and won't affect in anyway the NHS.


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## Private (Nov 4, 2019)

Fisherman said:


> Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.



Is that not just a small extension to what this forum is already?

Maybe you could start by opening a thread highlighting a particular place that you believe to be unreasonably restricted & begin a campaign to overturn the restriction. Our very talented current members (thinking particularly of 'maureenandtom'!) could pitch in with advice on how to fight it & once a plan of action has been agreed on we could all email the relevant person or bodies involved as a show of numbers.
If that proves successful then you challenge another location.
The 'leaders' will become apparent & any success will attract new participants. 
Rewarding those that have invested the most time & talent can become a consideration once a momentum has begun.

Start small, think big.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 4, 2019)

In a little haste.   There is one great advantage to motorhomers having an organisation to speak in our name.   You can see it in  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/made

and this is the relevent paragraph in the Table in Paragraph 6.

_*Such other organisations (if any) representing persons likely to be affected by any provision in the order as the order making authority thinks it appropriate to consult*_

Up to now, there have been few applications to a local authority to cater for motorhomes by providing any facilities .  Therefore any objection based on cost to local authorities is spurious - of no account, no one has asked a local authority to spend any money on us.

To date - most applications to local authorites have been to ask them NOT to spend money disciminating against us.  Up to now this has mostly involved objecting to Traffic Regulation Orders but sometimes byelaws too.

If we object to a TRO, we do so as individuals.   There have been two organisations purporting to act on our behalf.   One is John Thompson;s tmcto and the other met with our disapproval.   We didn't recognise the other as speaking for us and some of us (not me) wrote to local authorites to say so.   However, on at least two occasions both organisations were recognised by local authorites ( N Yorks, Cornwall and, I think, Lincolnshire, a third maybe) as organisations they were required to consult.     And these councils did so.   With limited success for us mostly but a success is a success.


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## mistericeman (Nov 4, 2019)

Speaking from personal experience of the greenlaning side of things.... 
We 4x4 owners along with Trail riding groups have been fighting byway closures for years now (following the NERC act etc) via TROs etc... 
Some substantial numbers of folks formed into some pretty large groups.... 

Very little, if any success of any sort.... 
Local authorities and the national parks etc have carried on regardless with the closures.... 
Even the spending power of large numbers of enthusiasts via petrol stations/hotels/cafes/resteraunts etc hasn't made any odds.... 

A large proportion of this is frankly down to the populariseation of "off roading.... (A misnomer as, byways green or otherwise are effectively roads) 
Via forums/websites/YouTube etc..... 

Same is (and has been for some time) happening to the campervan/motorhome side of things.... 

Sadly I'm of the opinion that there is now little we can do....
 Other than try to enjoy the time we have left


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2019)

Private said:


> Is that not just a small extension to what this forum is already?
> 
> Maybe you could start by opening a thread highlighting a particular place that you believe to be unreasonably restricted & begin a campaign to overturn the restriction. Our very talented current members (thinking particularly of 'maureenandtom'!) could pitch in with advice on how to fight it & once a plan of action has been agreed on we could all email the relevant person or bodies involved as a show of numbers.
> If that proves successful then you challenge another location.
> ...



you make a fair point. But it’s also important that this body validates their members as bein competent and responsible. Anyone who breeches the rules could have their validation removed.


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## daygoboy (Nov 4, 2019)

I have a feeling we're going round in an endless loop on this one. 
Make that a Mobius Loop!


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## peter palance (Nov 5, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> I mostly agree with you -  I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public.   Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "_I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...".  _Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.
> 
> As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't.   Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it.  Quite the opposite in fact;   the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us.  FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.
> 
> ...


thank you, too true,  ok pj


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## maureenandtom (Nov 5, 2019)

daygoboy said:


> I have a feeling we're going round in an endless loop on this one.
> Make that a Mobius Loop!




We're all on the same side?   If only that were true.


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## Fisherman (Nov 5, 2019)

maureenandtom said:


> We're all on the same side?   If only that were true.



Exactly we are not all on the same side, and there’s the rub.
yes Peter we are going round in circles, of on tangents and getting nowhere.
and that’s a real shame.
I find it perplexing how some are quick to lay the blame on ourselves for the loss of parking sometimes. Yes there are idiots and inexperienced folks amongst us, and yes they do things they should not do. But what do you do when you have travelled from France to Scotland and have a cassette to empty, or some grey water to dispose of, with nowhere to dispose of them. Are we really so surprised that some resort to dumping it were they should not. 
my wife and I wild camp for three nights then spend a night in a CL or a campsite with chemical waste facilities. That’s our solution. But then we value our environment, and we are considerate of the locals in their communities. Sadly some are not. Motorhomers come in all varieties, but from my experience the vast majority think like me.

So we have a problem, but not of our making, we are not a problem, the fact that we are regarded as a problem is the problem. The solution to this is really quite simple. Provide facilities whereby we can safety dispose of our waste for a fee to cover the cost of installation and maintenance. Stop putting up barriers in remote locations which only creates problems elsewhere, stop putting up idiotic no overnight parking signs that are unenforceable and have no legal bearing, and stop treating us like we are a problem.

Yes there are some idiots amongst us, but then there are idiots everywhere. But it seems that we are the only ones that need sorting out, the only ones to be banned.
People drop litter on pavements every day, in some places it’s a real problem. The solution is not to ban pedestrians from pavements, but to educate people and provide enough bins and maintenance of these bins as possible.


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