# Propane gas regulators not to be used in caravsns or motor carsvans!



## philgb (Feb 13, 2016)

We usually use a dumpy calor butane ( blue bottle) in the campervan and have just purchased a dumpy calor propane (red bottle)
To use over the colder months.
Also purchased a new red regulator from our local caravan dealer, on reading the leaflet that was with regulator it stated NOT FOR USE IN CARAVANS AND MOTORCARAVANS
Phoned the shop and they replied we have sold hundreds of them!

So who is right cavegna group who ma ke the regulators or the caravan shop.
We do have a drop vent but I feel a bit unsure now about using this standard regulator

Any thoughts?


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## n brown (Feb 13, 2016)

i wouldn't worry about it, but if you're concerned, fill a plant sprayer half and half with fairy liquid and water  and after fitting and turning on,give it a good squirt of mist and look for bubbles. any  small leakage will escape through the drop out vent. 
maybe the manufacturers would like to absolve themselves of any responsibility by suggesting the bottle is kept outside,which in the case of caravans,it usually is


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

philgb said:


> We usually use a dumpy calor butane ( blue bottle) in the campervan and have just purchased a dumpy calor propane (red bottle)
> To use over the colder months.
> Also purchased a new red regulator from our local caravan dealer, on reading the leaflet that was with regulator it stated NOT FOR USE IN CARAVANS AND MOTORCARAVANS
> Phoned the shop and they replied we have sold hundreds of them!
> ...



I don't think you will have any issues , the reason for the warning is assumptive on my part but hopefully makes sense.

From 2002 ish motorhomes and caravans have been fitted with 30 mbar regulators, it is an EN standard and possibly the reason for the "warning " ...Prior to 2002  butane (blue used 28 mbar regs Propane 37 mbar regs which is what you have purchased.

This is the only logical reason i can think of .Lpg appliances are jetted to run on both propane and butane at the 28/37 mbar pressures indeed static caravans still do 

Channa


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## Wooie1958 (Feb 13, 2016)

My 2006 build motorhome has the manufacturer stickers on the gas appliances saying they will run on both butane and propane and at 28 / 37 mbar.

The original 30 mbar bulkhead regulator blocked up and was replaced 4 times in 2 years and always at a most inappropriate time   :mad2:

After the forth time which thankfully was at the Peterborough show i took the bugger off and replaced it with some orange LPG hose and a on bottle 37 mbar regulator.

That was in 2009 and the same regulator is still working fine today without any problems what so ever.

I now have Gas It installed so i fixed to the bulkhead a UK POL fitting with twin inlets so i can still use the same type regulator.


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

Older vans work off the old BS3016 standard which was superceeded by BS EN 12864/ 13786. in reality no difference other than LAV (leisure accomodation vehicles froom 2002 where to be fitted with 30 mbar regulators.

There is no difference in ventilation requirements etc, the 30 mbar was introduced so in theory you could run off either gas. only having to change pigtails for the bottle.

If i were testing, I would remark not to current standards , that is a world apart from failing a system. to my knowledge a system NCS doesnt invalidate insurance but worth checking the small print ....and again the above would explain the manufacturers caveat. 

Permissable deviation of outlet pressure for max/minimum flow do differ slightly.

I hope this helps more than confuses 

Channa


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## Wooie1958 (Feb 13, 2016)

Perfectly clear *Channa * .........   :cheers:


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## Teutone (Feb 13, 2016)

I think the reason for not using the regulator is that it has to be bulk mounted WITH a test point. How are you otherwise going to test the system for gas safety?

Technically there is no reason why you can't use it.


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## Byronic (Feb 13, 2016)

Stick a piece of tape over  'NOT'. That'll do fine.


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

Teutone said:


> I think the reason for not using the regulator is that it has to be bulk mounted WITH a test point. How are you otherwise going to test the system for gas safety?
> 
> Technically there is no reason why you can't use it.


 Not at all , you connect a t piece low pressure side of the regulator for testing  , standard practice 

Channa

Where there is no test nipple, which on any older van always applies


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## Teutone (Feb 13, 2016)

channa said:


> Not at all , you connect a t piece low pressure side of the regulator for testing  , standard practice
> 
> Channa
> 
> Where there is no test nipple, which on any older van always applies



thanks for clarifying.


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...f0KaP9oOw02klTWKg&sig2=mYmlf5dTIyfe9WnBiEi4gg
> Some bedtime reading for you
> N C S does not exist anymore .



Same bollocks different words, fact is after 2002 the reg doesnt comply with current EN's that is a fact ? reporting procedures have changed. 

Out of interest why do you believe the manufacturers state a warning ? 

Channa


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> Well similar but just the 2 ,categories to deal with now.
> My guess would be that with the pressure change the manufacturer now states not for use in caravans or motorhomes.
> No gsr operative could give you a safety certificate not that any privately used need to be certified only if used for hire or reward.



That makes sense , permissable deviation from nominal set out let pressures (unless that has changed)

BSEN 13786  Propane +13 mbar i.e 37- 50 mbar
BSEN 13786 LAV  +10 mbar i.e 30-40 mbar 

Channa


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## runnach (Feb 13, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> I had 60 mbar on Tuesday on natural gas .
> New regulator fitted by the utility company within an hour.
> Static van leak this morning, they had used 6 compression fittings to rigidly pipe in a cooker so replaced with soldered and cookker hose and bayonet.
> Now just 2 joints compared to 12 .



And that will have  ( or should have been done by gas safe? ) final connection is a hose, also a retaining chain shorter than the hose. To be honest statics are what I worked on in the main, However upon my return to the uK my quals fell short hence i made the decision to go Air con and reefers....My lpg up for renewal this year i won;t be bothering 

Our regs were in the main clesse and pretty good only one occasion i recall where it sent the manometer through the roof. on a reg change.....I thought it wa sme at first !!! ..Morco D61 B's part of my make up lol ..

Air con compression fittings are illegal everything needs to be brazed 


Channa.


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## runnach (Feb 14, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> I am gsr on both natural gas and lpg.


 I know you are, I was referring to the original work. 

Channa


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## n brown (Feb 14, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> I am gsr on both natural gas and lpg.



GSR ? Grilling Steak Rare ?


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## Polar Bear (Feb 14, 2016)

I once bought a reg from Carrefour in Spain off the shelf. Fitted it to the barbecue and got flames a foot high. Turns out the reg was for a roof felt heating gun. Good for flame grilled stuff!


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## philgb (Feb 14, 2016)

The regulator leaflet states outlet pressure 37mbar and is not bulk head mounted, just screwed into the dumpy bottle


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## n brown (Feb 14, 2016)

i use the same regulator on a bottle in a cupboard under the sink. in case you don't know, you can get a regulator that needs no spanner Propane Gas Regulator & Hand Wheel - No Spanner Needed! | eBay


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## philgb (Feb 14, 2016)

Not a motorhome its my self built camper, standard new smev hob and spinflo oven/ grill fitted last year, with the gas bottle located under the sink unit, with a drop vent.

Reading the posts I take it the 37mBar regulator sold to me is not to be used  and a 30mBar regulator to be purchased?


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## philgb (Feb 14, 2016)

n brown said:


> i use the same regulator on a bottle in a cupboard under the sink. in case you don't know, you can get a regulator that needs no spanner Propane Gas Regulator & Hand Wheel - No Spanner Needed! | eBay



Now that is handy, cheers for the link


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## Polar Bear (Feb 14, 2016)

n brown said:


> i use the same regulator on a bottle in a cupboard under the sink. in case you don't know, you can get a regulator that needs no spanner Propane Gas Regulator & Hand Wheel - No Spanner Needed! | eBay



Hi Nigel. Dose the reg you use have a vent hole in it? Wondered if that is that is the difference? The one the OP has seems to be one for a barbecue/patio heater.


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## trevskoda (Feb 14, 2016)

n brown said:


> GSR ? Grilling Steak Rare ?



Nop,good sex romp.


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## philgb (Feb 14, 2016)

My original question was regarding the manufacturers statement "not to be used in a caravan or motor caravan" 

No problem with using either propane or butane with the appliances, just the propane regulator manufacturers statement!


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## runnach (Feb 14, 2016)

channa said:


> That makes sense , permissable deviation from nominal set out let pressures (unless that has changed)
> 
> BSEN 13786  Propane +13 mbar i.e 37- 50 mbar
> BSEN 13786 LAV  +10 mbar i.e 30-40 mbar
> ...



The appliances will be jetted for the 28/ 37 mbar figure I would imagine a check in the installation guides will confirm. But before that is even taken into consideration, the current standards dictate as Swiftcamper suggested a safety certificate couldnt be issued by a gas safe engineer. For the same reason as the manufacturer are stating not for use in motorhomes and caravans.

the info above should explain why.

And it seems to me all cover backside technology to stop litigation.

Same EN 13786 BUT an annexe that applies exclusively to caravans and motorhomes.

acceptable deviation on lock up with no appliances running on a propane reg is 37 mbar plus 13 which gives an acceptable pressure of no greater than 50 mbar 

However the standard for LAV (leisure  accomodation vehicles ) is 30 mbar regulator plus 10 mbar so a pressure no greater than 40 mbar 

Therefore the manufacturer and gas safe engineer are stating not suitable because there is a chance that the propane regulator could lock up at a figure of over 40 mbar which although acceptable for a propane reg within limits falls outside the scope of the  current standard for LAV's no more complicated than that.

The irony is if you have an older van, pre 2002. forget the LAV part, and the figures I quote applied, and  whilst not to the current standard is perfectly safe and acceptable in my opinion. Remember the appliance were jetted to run on 28/37 have appliance manufacturers altered jettings ? that is where you need to check installation manuals.

You can draw your own conclusions. 
Channa


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## winks (Aug 28, 2016)

Cheers Channa, I'm just about to fit an auto changeover to our Hymer and start setting up with a Gaslow system I've had the bits for for ages.

That bit with the wrong regulator giving flames a foot high made me chuckle because I did a similar thing a few weeks ago with a 'liberated' bottle and reg I acquired yonks ago. Turns out blow lamps use a lot higher pressure than a barbie...

Cheers

H


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## winks (Aug 29, 2016)

*Mounting Changeover Valve*

Bit of advice please.

Just had a look at positioning the auto changeover valve for my Gaslow bottle and the instructions say has to be mounted at least 75mm above the bottle. It can't be done in my gas locker. The only option I have is to mount it between the two 6kg bottles on the back wall of the locker, which leaves the 8mm output level with the top of the cylinders. The inputs for the pigtails would be clear by about the specified distance. 

So, the question is. If I go ahead with whats available to me will the thing still work ok?

Cheers

H


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## runnach (Aug 29, 2016)

When installing an auto change system, the flexible hose connections should be higher than the connection to the cylunders which is where the 75 mm comes from .The reason is in the event of over filled cylinders minimise the chance of liquified gas getting into the hose. This CAN happen with overfilled cylinders and very hot weather conditions.

So to answer your question yes the system will work but would be considered a poorly installed system.

Channa


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## winks (Aug 29, 2016)

Thanks again Channa.
 I've had a look at the following http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/Filling-Instructions-2012.pdf and in the photos the inlets to the changeover are in a very similar position to mine. I could understand the need to keep the regulator at or above the bottle valve if the inlet was on the same axis as the outlet. This isn't the case with the changeover inlets because they are above the bottle valves, so I am happy to continue as planned.

Cheers

H


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## lebesset (Aug 29, 2016)

I think you will find that the manufacturer is 100% correct ...you cannot use that regulator in a motorhome/caravan ; I can't do so in my house in france , only bottle possible legally inside is butane 
what you can do is fit the regulator to the bottle , keep it outside then pipe the gas [ in copper pipe ]at it's reduced pressure to the inside , just like all the people with their propane tanks outside their houses ; presumably the same law as france  

in other words just put the bottle/regulator in the gas locker just like the on board regulators....I notice all the screw on regulators are now 30mb around here


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