# UNDOING DUCATO 2.5 TDi CRANKSHAFT PULLEY BOLT - Which way?



## Stanski (Apr 10, 2014)

Have searched for info on the net, and this site, (Not a lot written about it) so have no precise info.  I was expecting Anti-clockwise - but now uncertain.  After spending the afternoon and evening trying to get it undone thought I'd ask the more experienced and wise members who may have met this dilemma.
Also any tips on restraining the crankshaft as putting it in gear and securing drive shafts does not work for me.


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## romo (Apr 10, 2014)

*romo*

Anti clockwise


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## richardstubbs (Apr 10, 2014)

Stanski said:


> Have searched for info on the net, and this site, (Not a lot written about it) so have no precise info.  I was expecting Anti-clockwise - but now uncertain.  After spending the afternoon and evening trying to get it undone thought I'd ask the more experienced and wise members who may have met this dilemma.
> Also any tips on restraining the crankshaft as putting it in gear and securing drive shafts does not work for me.



I've never come across a crankshaft pulley nut or bolt which is left-hand thread so I think it's unlikely, although I've never worked on a Ducato. If it is then I'd expect it to be marked, with notches or something like that.

I've always managed fine by putting it in the highest gear (important - less leverage) and having an assistant stand on the brake pedal. You kind of have to shock them a bit though; jump on the spanner, yank it hard, that sort of thing. It might have thread lock on it.

I'm not saying it definitely isn't LH thread though...

I haven't done it for years, but when I used to get stuck with something I would just ring up the nearest main dealer and confidently ask to be put through to the workshop. Then ask the first mechanic who answers the phone. Worked a few times, especially with odd things like Citroen hydraulics


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## maingate (Apr 11, 2014)

Check the rotation of the crankshaft. If it rotates anti-clockwise (when viewed from the pulley end) it will be RH thread. If it is clockwise, it could be LH thread unless the bolt is captive in some way.


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## dave docwra (Apr 11, 2014)

Air gun is the best for undoing.

Dave.


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## Teutone (Apr 11, 2014)

maingate said:


> Check the rotation of the crankshaft. If it rotates anti-clockwise (when viewed from the pulley end) it will be RH thread. If it is clockwise, it could be LH thread unless the bolt is captive in some way.



what you describe isn't that exactly how it shouldn't be?

A right hand thread OPENS when you rotate it anti-clockwise. 

I agree with others posting here, a LH nut/bolt is usually marked with a grooved ring or else


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## maingate (Apr 11, 2014)

Teutone said:


> what you describe isn't that exactly how it shouldn't be?
> 
> A right hand thread OPENS when you rotate it anti-clockwise.
> 
> I agree with others posting here, a LH nut/bolt is usually marked with a grooved ring or else



You have got that the wrong way round.

When a shaft starts suddenly in an anti-clockwise direction the nut or bolt tightens. 

Just think about it a bit more.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 11, 2014)

one old dodge we used when i was in the game ,was socket on a strong arm  wedge the strong arm on the deck socket on the crankshaft /pulley nut and give the starter a quick flick .never failed .mind you a  lot of pullies now have three or four retaining bolts only other way is put in gear have someone press the foot brake and then use a strong arm the bolts are usually the opposite thread to the rotation of the engine .and as only honda i believe decided to make there engines run backwards


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## Stanski (Apr 11, 2014)

*CRANKSHAFT DILEMMA Pt1 ... contd*


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## Stanski (Apr 11, 2014)

*CRANKSHAFT PULLEY NUT REMOVAL - 2.5TDi is ANTI-CLOCKWISE (Normal)*

For all in future - Do it in the daylight as I found a suitable solution.  Vehicle is jacked off the ground by about 400mm to allow easy access under gearbox and sump.
Found a 6-7mm groove cut in the flywheel is accessible via a 12mm access hole near to the clutch inspection hole.  Placing a suitable tool (Small head chisel), and asking SWMBO to hold it in place, then extending the lever of the 36mm socket (3/4" drive) by another 200mm to make it 500mm long, a suitable leverage can be obtained.  Two largeish efforts anticlockwise (normal bolt release action ) and off it comes.

Many thanks to all who offered support.

Update on cambelt to follow.


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## maingate (Apr 11, 2014)

On some Ducatos, it is also recommended to change the water pump while doing the timing belt (or that might be just the water pump drive belt, I am not sure). Anyway, here is a useful link when you have a query.

Ducato - The FIAT Forum


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## Fazerloz (Apr 11, 2014)

See you just needed to get your lass on the job.


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## Stanski (Apr 11, 2014)

*CAMBELT INFO for 1998 DUCATO 2.5 TDi*

A couple of bits of information for anyone who is contemplating a Cambelt change for a 2.5TDi.

The camshaft pulley is only secured to the camshaft with the bolt pressure - hence the high torque to secure it, above message explains.

The cambelt for my engine has 153 teeth.  (Have to wait until Monday for the kit to arrive to verify all parts)

Another version of the engine kit exists which has 152 teeth and no damper (so described by local parts supplier).
TIMING KIT = TBK0056 comprising:
  1x BELT = GAT 5335XS
  1x TENSIONER KIT = INA 530007309

Additional belts on the engine were:
GENERATOR BELT = GAT 6PK893
AUXILARY A/C BELT = GAT 5PK1083 (my version) or another option is GAT 5PK1103

ON THE ENGINE - Parts of the Cambelt system.  (I am uncertain what is correct terminology.)
For my engine the tensioner to me is more like a damper (It is cylindrical shaped approx 20mm diameter containing what feels is an internal spring) and is fitted inside a housing which is part of the water pump casing.  The spring pressure is applied to the lower left of the piston assembly.
Why I question if it is a tensioner is that I would have expected greater spring pressure - also the parts supplier quoted "Damper" from the parts catalogue.

I also discovered that the water pump housing has the engine mounting bolts and also the alternator/generator bracket attached to it, in addition to the Damper/Tensioner - which in all makes it a bit of a task to replace.  I shall consider doing it over the weekend.

What started out as a £100 2 day mini project has now become a potential 6 day and near £250 exercise if water pump, new cambelt kit, all belts and tensioner/damper purchased.  

Hope the info helps someone.

DO I CHANGE THE WATER PUMP?


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## flyinghigh (Apr 11, 2014)

Exactly as mandrake said, use a breaker bar and decent quality socket and wedge it tight then a quick flix of the starter is all you need, some crankshaft bolts have a smear of loctite on them so a bit of heat on the head of the bolt is also required first,


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## Teutone (Apr 11, 2014)

maingate said:


> You have got that the wrong way round.
> 
> When a shaft starts suddenly in an anti-clockwise direction the nut or bolt tightens.
> 
> Just think about it a bit more.



I take my coat! Of course you are correct! I missed one "anti" when I read your posting.


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## Stanski (Apr 11, 2014)

*WATER PUMP - 2.5TDi - IS IT WORTH IT*

Makes good sense - Thanks 

COSTS
What was surprising is the difference in cost of the cambelt kits with tensioner, or without, Approx £120 down to £75 (without).  The alternative Cambelt kit was going to be £58. 
Water pump is about £48.
Gen Belt - £7.50
Aux Belt - £9.00

Other repairs:
I have also replaced the front cross member (Rusted badly) £70 - which I thought very reasonable.
Track Rod Ends - £18 each (A cheaper £8 option was not chosen)
Oil Filter - £9.50 and Oil - £27

Incompetence - £ ???
 More wallet heartbreak to be revealed - needing inner strength to admit to incompetence which I shall insist was tiredness, cost yet to be determined. All will be revealed over the next week after I get the engine working.  I shall be prepared then to be called silly names.


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## Stanski (Apr 11, 2014)

I've browsed through the manual but no diagram reflects the cambelt positioning that I have on my engine.  Some of the details are pertinent but not all.  I shall get engine details tomorrow to investigate further as I'm now more curious what I have.  Off stock car racing tomorrow so may not get to do it all in the morning, could be Sunday.


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## The laird (Apr 11, 2014)

*Crank bolt*

If you're struggling still to remove bolt take out the starter motor and put a socket into the ring gear teeth to stop the engine turning then break it away,or the other way is a socket onto. A long power bar immobilise the engine start then jam the power bar to the ground and give the engine a crank and it should do the trick


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## maingate (Apr 11, 2014)

Stanski said:


> I've browsed through the manual but no diagram reflects the cambelt positioning that I have on my engine.  Some of the details are pertinent but not all.  I shall get engine details tomorrow to investigate further as I'm now more curious what I have.  Off stock car racing tomorrow so may not get to do it all in the morning, could be Sunday.



I gave you a link to the Fiat Forum. You can download a manual for Fiat models which will probably be a great help. It is in EPER format, so you download it on to a DVD, not your hard drive.


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## QFour (Apr 11, 2014)

What a great thread. Loads of input from a great bunch all with one thing in mind a FREE beer next time they meet Stanski .. Well done you lot .. Result .. Like an episode of the Archers ..


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## maingate (Apr 11, 2014)

User1 said:


> What a great thread. Loads of input from a great bunch all with one thing in mind a FREE beer next time they meet Stanski .. Well done you lot .. Result .. Like an episode of the Archers ..



Hey, butt out, there is a queue you know. :mad1:


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## maingate (Apr 12, 2014)

You may be looking at the wrong download. It is a right pain to download for a numpty like me but I managed after a few attempts.

The best thing is to do a search on downloading it. That is how I found out but it was some time ago and I cannot remember exactly how I did it. In fact I cannot now find the DVD with it on. :rolleyes2: Looks like I will have to go through the pain all over again. :beer:

I know that you first need to download an eper program, plenty free ones or 30 day trial ones on the net.

Edited to add: It looks like they have changed it all .... oops.

I found this site I had bookmarked but don't know how good the product is. http://www.whichmanuals.co.uk/products/Fiat-Ducato-Workshop-Manual.html

I think you are right about it only being a spare parts list but it might be of some help.


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## Stanski (Apr 12, 2014)

*Cider more likely*



User1 said:


> What a great thread. Loads of input from a great bunch all with one thing in mind a FREE beer next time they meet Stanski .. Well done you lot .. Result .. Like an episode of the Archers ..



Thanks User1 - Probably Cider would be more fashionable in this neck of the woods.
:cheers:


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 12, 2014)

as for changing the water pump ,many years ago the vanes in the pump were made of metal ,but nowadays they are being made more and more of a plastic material it seems .this plastic i will call it tends to wear unlike the metal ones of old ,so as they wear they arnt as efficient at circulating the coolant ,thus all the problems you have .the only water pump i used to change when replacing timing belts was on the vauxhall ohc engine as that was also the tensioner/adjuster for the cam belt and most were damaged on removel of the belt ,they sized into the engine itself . so yes it is best to change the water pump if driven off the timing belt  and other associated idlers tensioners that come into contact with the belt  ,as if they should fail then it will instantly dislodge your new timing belt and wreck your engine. as we called it eaten the crisps and supped the pop sorry forgot to add most idler tensioners are also made of a plastic stuff they dont whine and grumble as the older steel  one did warning you  they just fail


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## stonedaddy (Apr 12, 2014)

*Which is it.*

I am watching this thread with interest. I have also bought the timing belt kits ready to do my engine, but its either raining or I am using the van so not a lot of action as taken place yet. I am a bit baffled by what engine you have, you say its the 2.5 TDi. I have the old Talbot Express 2.5 TD which I think is the same as the Fiat Ducato.
In my crappy Peter Russek manual the three diesel engines listed are,
1.9 litre diesel engine         XUD9A (D98)

2.5 litre diesel engine         U25/651

2.5 litre turbo diesel engine U25/673

Mine is the latter and inside the timing case are two timing belts and adjuster kits. One is the crankshaft, camshaft, oil pump timing belt plus tensioners. 
The other is the diesel injector pump to camshaft timing belt and tensioner. There are exactly 35 teeth between points A and B in the manual and all have to be spot on to the timing marks. 
I have a feeling that yours is a completely different engine to what I am looking at as the water pump on mine is at the other end of the engine with the alternator and brake vacuum pump. There are 4 more drive belts at the other end as well so yours could be a lot more modern than my old tug. I will just put up a link to show how my timing gear looks and the kit I bought. 

TALBOT EXPRESS TIMING BELT KIT 2.5D 82-94 OE QUALITY | eBay

Keep us informed as I am worried about the room between the timing gear and the inner engine compartment panels for getting tools in to do the job. Good luck with yours.
.... Tom ....


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 12, 2014)

they make engines so complicated now glad i am out of the spanner wielding trade .
the new ford diesels are the same i have a 2.0 duratorque in my 04 mondeo .they are also fitted in the new transit so many with vans based on these may come up against the confusion they can cause  according to form they are chain driven ,but some have a chain and belt and others are all belt mad


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## stonedaddy (Apr 13, 2014)

Yes, Tom, yours is the older type of engine. This is what the timing belts will look like on your engine:
UNDOING DUCATO 2.5 TDi CRANKSHAFT PULLEY BOLT - Which way?-timing_belt.jpg

Did you download the pdf that I put on my server, in my earlier post? That shows your engine in detail. I don't know how it compares with the Peter Russek book. May be it is a copy of it. Perhaps you could tell me. I have all the other chapters on the PC as pdfs, having bought a CD with those and loads of other Talbot/Ducato stuff.


Yup looked at your PDF file and it is much clearer than the Peter Russek manual. I also have the CDs and they are more rubbish than the manual. The drawings on both manual and CD is really poor very dark and and not fit for purpose really. Without any Haynes manuals I suppose beggars can't be choosers. Thanks for sharing your PDF files I am sure they will come in very handy when I get round to doing the job. 
.... Tom ....


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## Stanski (Apr 13, 2014)

*ACCESS to CAMBELT*


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## Stanski (Apr 13, 2014)

*CONFESSION on a SUNDAY - SURELY NOT.*


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## maingate (Apr 13, 2014)

[No message]


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## stonedaddy (Apr 14, 2014)

[No message]


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## stonedaddy (Apr 14, 2014)

*Is it the Sofin*

Just curious to know is yours the Italian built engine the SOFIN. The Ducato had a number of these fitted over the years and that was the only model to have this engine out of all the similar models.
.... Tom ....


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## Stanski (Apr 14, 2014)

*Ducato sofin engine?*



stonedaddy said:


> Just curious to know is yours the Italian built engine the SOFIN. The Ducato had a number of these fitted over the years and that was the only model to have this engine out of all the similar models.
> .... Tom ....



Still puzzled myself.  Confident it is a normal engine as all parts fit as expected.  In addition was lent a 1998 cambelt book by a mechanic colleague today and it shows my Cambelt layout but for a 1.9 TD engine.  As mine is a 2.5TDi and vehicle is for european market I believe the engine may be same engine as 1.9 but with a different block.

16APR14
After speaking with Mike personally yesterday (Whilst getting the part I messed up) he clarified how to identify the engine as a SOFIN type.  The SOFIN model is identified on the identification plate with 8140.47 - And mine is this.


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## Stanski (Apr 15, 2014)

*2.5TDi - WATER PUMP & CAMBELT Part2*

The saga of the water pump removal.  Only four 15mm bolts it seems - Ha Ha Ha Ho Ho Ho.  How many torments can a designer give a person.

*First *torment - finding the radiator drain valve.  Hidden behind starter motor cables secured to crossmember and difficult access with A/C motor and power steering pipes restricting screwdriver positioning.
*Second *torment - drain water.  Cables and pipes causes uncontrolled water flow and extensive deflection of water so got very wet.
*Third *torment - access to remove 13mm nuts securing water pipe to rear of water pump.  Alternator needs to be fully detached.
*Fourth *torment - water pump pulley.  Securing bolts were awkward to undo, then pulley found very firmly rusted to the drive flange and could not be removed.  Had to find solution for removal of top bolt water pump.
*Fifth *torment - access to the top bolt of the water pump.  Found it was just possible using a 15mm socket and a partially fitted socket drive to tease the bolt out. Just enough room with pulley in situ.
*Sixth *torment - mounting bracket.   Engine required supporting - Once 17mm bolts undone engine rocks forward.
*Seventh *torment - retracting damper piston.  Piston pressure against tensioner bracket places a side force on all waterpump bolts.  Need a suitable device/tool to hold back the piston (1cm wide).

HOORAY#1 - Old Waterpump off after 2 hours +.
HOORAY#2 - New water pump supplied is same as old one.
HOORAY#3 - Water pump fitted after prep of gasket, seal and studs.


Now to resolve that tiredness stupidity problem......... more tomorrow.


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## Stanski (Apr 16, 2014)

*1998 DUCATO 2.5TDi - SOFIN ENGINE (CONFESSION)*


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## stonedaddy (Apr 16, 2014)

*Superb*

Great piece of mechanical doggedness Stanski. I bet firing it up the first time was a bum twitcher. Get the timing out could have been a disaster, well done. My belts are still on a shelf in the garage. I have only about a inch and half gap from the inner wheel arch and the timing gear. I also think I have to take the engine mountings off to do the job but that's life.
.... Tom ....


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## Stanski (Apr 17, 2014)

*1998 ducato cambelt access*



stonedaddy said:


> ... I have only about a inch and half gap from the inner wheel arch and the timing gear ...



Is the gap actually this small?  I had to manage with just about the width of the Cambelt cover (approx 2") where the A/C bottle was, and a little more lower down and forward of the chassis arm.  From my limited experience engines are positioned to allow this type of maintenance.

Fortunately I had access to a friends 3/4" drive socket set with a 36mm socket to undo the Crank pulley Nut, my own tools are normal 1/4" and 1/2" drive sockets and spanners from various sets obtained over the years.  A major help was having an old 3 ton hydraulic jack although vehicle jack would have served the same purpose.

Have taken some photos to hopefully present the scene - having difficulty loading them from camera at mo so later I hope.


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## Stanski (Apr 17, 2014)

But thats what UK Bank Hols are for.  We are normally away at Easter following Saloon Stock Cars so wet race tracks is expected.

How warm is it in Pontivy in October?  We seriously are looking to become semi-retired so am seeking objectives to experience?


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## Stanski (Apr 17, 2014)

*DUCATO SOFIN 2.5TDi CAMBELT ACCESS PHOTO(s)*

First attempt in doing this on this forum - fingers crossed.



Not the best pic but from it if you can perceive the available room.  The A/C bottle is approx 4" diameter., 1/2 of it sits on the chassis/ bracket fitted to mounting bracket front bolt.
The belts at the bottom are the Generator belt (Left) / A/C belt (Right).


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## Tbear (Apr 18, 2014)

SELL THE HYMER  :scared:

Richard


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## immy (Jun 25, 2018)

*Beware*



mandrake said:


> one old dodge we used when i was in the game ,was socket on a strong arm  wedge the strong arm on the deck socket on the crankshaft /pulley nut and give the starter a quick flick .never failed .mind you a  lot of pullies now have three or four retaining bolts only other way is put in gear have someone press the foot brake and then use a strong arm the bolts are usually the opposite thread to the rotation of the engine .and as only honda i believe decided to make there engines run backwards



1. Be very WARY. My F1.9td turns clockwise. Crank bolt is LH thread so the strong arm dodge of flicking the starter just TIGHTENS the bolt (even stretches it!)!!! 
2. But if you hold it in top gear on the footbrake (safer), then make sure to put some studs back in the brake disc first - the disc holder set screws aren't strong enough alone! 
3. Can use a long strong extender pipe over the Tommy bar (or strong arm) but support the outer end of any socket extension bars on an axle stand and then use only downwards force of course.
4. My auxiliaries pulley is held on by 4 x 6mm Allen screws - advisable to replace these with harder steel ones before their heads round out when trying to remove them at the next timing belt change. A torx bit can sometimes be hammered in as an emergency extractor (to save having to remove the crank bolt). 
.


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