# What is Happening in the Real Economy ?



## ivecotrucker (Feb 17, 2013)

I don't generally dabble much in the 'Off Topic' subject zone  but I would be interested in any feedback.

In 25 years I've never previously seen such low midweek traffic flows on our local main roads, A30, A35, A38 & the southern end of the M5. Local builder's merchants such as Jewson, Travis Perkins, Wickes have more sales counter staff than customers over the last few months whenever I've called in. A local steel-stockholder was delighted with my pityfully small recent order, again I was the only customer in their yard. Our local self-styled 'regional shopping centre', (Trago Mills) usually has the cheapest fuel around which always meant queuing but for some months now it is usually possible to drive straight up to a pump. 
Are monthly regional fuel sales summaries available anywhere ?. Some weeks ago at 9.0pm on a Friday night (usually peak period) we were not just the only customers in our local pub, we were the first of the evening. Another local pub closed for good just before Christmas.

This is not a precise, statistically correct study but it doesn't need to be - the things I'm speaking of are obvious on the ground. I'm not by nature a pessimist but one could think that the South West is slowly, very slowly but unmistakeably dying. This week we have just under one page of job adverts in the local paper, 13 in all of which 4 are public sector and of the remaining 9 just 6 are full time, in an area the size of a semi-rural parliamentary constituency. There will certainly be other jobs at the Jobcentre, I would hope, but just 6 advertised full time jobs in an area of x100's square miles doesn't look like economic recovery to me. 

How do things look elswhere in the UK ?; over to you please.


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## jonkil (Feb 17, 2013)

Banks stifling the life out of small businesses.
Withdrawing overdrafts and restructuring them to term loans and calling it "new lending".
Zero credit availability to potential customers in all walks of life.
Banks paying 6 figure bonuses to "gamblers" within their ranks without accountability.
Tax system completely outdated regarding taking on staff.

Absolutely zero optimism from the public regarding the economy.
People not spending with fear for the future.
Government acting like headless chickens and have no ability to instil confidence.

Well that's what Ireland is like, less so in UK.
Will be at least 10 years before things change, but now good time to invest. Bricks and mortar and land is still the #1 investment and will "come good" in the long grass.


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## yorkslass (Feb 17, 2013)

pretty much the same in west yorkshire. i heard, though i dont know how true it is, that wages equate to levels about 15 years ago but everything has gone up. i think the average person is afraid and is therefore hanging onto every penny. very scary with no sign of improvement in the near future.


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## bestyman (Feb 17, 2013)

I'm from West Yorkshire too.

Ive never know things so quiet. It seems to have happened all within the last 6 months. Everyone I know is skint.

Like you say, pubs empty, shops empty,roads quiet. Well, thats apart from the Poundshop and Primark.

I think it affects the young or people with children mostly.


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 17, 2013)

Yes Bestyman, that's the point I'm making - not the economic circumstances of the last 4 - 5 years that we all know about but what seems to be a considerable worsening as you say over the last 6 months (I'd say about the last 4 months down here).


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## daisymini (Feb 17, 2013)

I cant believe how much food has gone up in price even in aldi let alone asda etc....and after the wet 2012 im sure all our root veg is going to rocket in price...but what confuses me is:...when we have a good season they never seem to lower the price after, we have mountains of wasted produce apparently(dont quote me) but i watch country file...lol  they just churn back into the land coz its the wrong shape??????  what as happened to this country and the world when we dont think we can eat a spring onion that isnt just the right size or shape to satisfy the multi million pound exploiters lilke tescos!!!!!


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## Cliffy (Feb 17, 2013)

*High end Motorhome dealers appear to be doing OK*

Went to Kimberley's showroom at Darlington today to start my search for a replacement van for next year (2014) They had around eight brand new Hymers lined up sold ready for collection That's around half a million pounds worth.

People with money are not feeling the pinch.

IMHO The ones getting hit are everyone who is on fixed incomes/benefits/pensions and hard working small businessmen are the ones struggling. 

I am not whinging I have retired early and managing OK after 45 years of work and saving up. It does annoy me that the super rich are getting richer at the expense of others. Alright I might be whinging just a little bit.:sad:


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## tanera (Feb 18, 2013)

Every month the government/Bank of England stand on their back legs and announce the underlying rate of inflation is under 4% or so.
I wonder what they base that on- certainly not the same things I buy. It's only a few years ago that £100 worth of shopping wouldn't fit into the boot of the car, last week that was the cost of five carrier bagsfull. 
A builder friend told me there's never been a better time to build a house, builders merchants are tripping over one another to cut their costs as are builders.The minimum wage will be the next casualty.

Supermarkets have been exposed as horse traders but what else is up their sleeves- I cant wait until chicken comes out of the closet- then what?


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## Deleted member 24143 (Feb 18, 2013)

ivecotrucker I think you will find that the local jobcentre doesn't have that many jobs either and most of those will be part-time and/or temporary. Where I live, small rural east coast town, the local pound shop is closing. Several other shops and a pub have recently closed as well. This area doesn't even exist as far as the government is concerned and the local council just push up business rates killing any hope of jobs. The only way this area, and in fact anywhere in England, to have a hope of recovering from this current long downturn is for the whole country to be renamed London then everywhere would benefit from the investment in infrastructure and jobs that always goes to London at the expense of the rest of England.

I say England because Wales, Scotland NI have devolved government to look after the interests of those parts of the UK.


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## mrbadger (Feb 18, 2013)

I read a story on Yahoo the other day (its Yahoo so it must be true!!) that said illegal immigrants were now paying the same gangs that got then into Britain to get them out again!! They're going to France and Spain as the prospects and lifestyle are better!! If that's true, it must be the worst indictment of the state of the UK.... Rats and sinking ships come to mind!! 

However, we've been in southern Spain since New Year, and we are feeling no pain whatsoever!!


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 18, 2013)

Sadly it's all around the country.

Turned up to do a gig in Holyhead on Saturday to find the venue had been shut down. The council rates were just too much. A common theme.

In addition to all the other issues previously mentioned in this thread

Of course the local councils still have VERY high standards that their staff have to enjoy, the difference between the NHS and Council in N Wales is massive, not just in this county, but all the N Wales counties.

But they hold a monopoly on services such as waste disposal, as a householder, I cannot go to a private contractor to empty my bins or recycling, so are stuck with the council.

A council that invents its own awards, and splashes them all over the papers telling you how wonderful they are.

Customers of mine recoil in horror at the thought of working in the private sector as they couldn't afford the pay cut or reduction in benefits.

Our income has dropped over the past 5 years whilst the cost of existing has risen all the time, sadly those that have created all of this mess have not been penalised but in many cases given pay increases.

Great number of employees of councils, banks etc actually believe in their own propaganda to the extent that when faced with solid facts, bury their heads or hide behind the corporate/local authority fire wall and ignore the truth.

PS, not just this country either, but a general malaise across Europe. That's what the "Global Economy" brings!!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 18, 2013)

When will someone get it through to local councils that if they dramatically reduced their property business rates they'd have a lot more takers?

They're sitting on god knows how much empty business/industrial property and the situation is getting worse all the time.
Is that good business? I don't think so! It's just as bad as the subprime mortgage fiasco, imo.

Also, if you have a local outdoor (or indoor) regular market the day rates for these are also too high and increase year on year.
Why not have reasonable rates? Far better than seeing historical markets throughout the country fading away year after year.
If you've got some little entrepreneurs who want to have a stab at selling their wares they're put off before they even take their first step!

I have an amusing story - well, it would be if it wasn't for the fact money was wasted (what's new?!)
Chester-le-Street council revamped their outdoor market back in 2007.

So what did these geniuses decide to do?

1. They reduced the space for the number of stalls it could accommodate, so many regular, longstanding stallholders could no longer come as they didn't have a pitch.
2. They put the rates up (forgone conclusion).
3. They commissioned someone to design a large brick arch (for "artistic effect"?) in 2007 - which served no purpose, looked ugly and took away valuable space originally used for stalls.

Here's the joke: the £334,000 arch, less than 5 years old built by the now-defunct district council (hurray!), is due to  be demolished next month after suffering repeated vandalism.

The trouble is very few council managers have experience of the real business world.
Even if they do, changing the jobsworth culture and injecting some vision and energy into these organisations is a seemingly impossible task.

The system of local councillors doesn't help either, at least that's my personal experience.
It's just another type of boys' club.

We are lumbered with an almost pre-historic public sector as far as generating business goes.
It's about time the dinosaurs went extinct, the systems were shaken up and some new blood injected asap.

Get some bl**dy women in charge!

Signed: the Fence Sitter


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## John H (Feb 18, 2013)

daisymini said:


> I cant believe how much food has gone up in price even in aldi let alone asda etc....and after the wet 2012 im sure all our root veg is going to rocket in price...but what confuses me is:...when we have a good season they never seem to lower the price after, we have mountains of wasted produce apparently(dont quote me) but i watch country file...lol  they just churn back into the land coz its the wrong shape??????  what as happened to this country and the world when we dont think we can eat a spring onion that isnt just the right size or shape to satisfy the multi million pound exploiters lilke tescos!!!!!



I am currently in the south-east of Spain, where most of the tomatoes and peppers that find their way into stores such as Tescos are grown. Because of the strict and nonsensical rules about size and shape that they apply, there are an awful lot of tomatoes and peppers that are rejected. Some of these find their way onto the local market stalls (where every sensible person down here buys their veg!) for ridiculously low prices such as 50 cents a kilo (that's about 20p per lb!). Not only that but they taste better than the uniform stuff you get in Tesco's. Unfortunately, however, there is so much rejected stuff that mountains of it are simply thrown into skips (where at least the really poor folk can shop for nothing!). Crazy world, isn't it?


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## sparrks (Feb 18, 2013)

John H said:


> I am currently in the south-east of Spain, where most of the tomatoes and peppers that find their way into stores such as Tescos are grown. Because of the strict and nonsensical rules about size and shape that they apply, there are an awful lot of tomatoes and peppers that are rejected. Some of these find their way onto the local market stalls (where every sensible person down here buys their veg!) for ridiculously low prices such as 50 cents a kilo (that's about 20p per lb!). Not only that but they taste better than the uniform stuff you get in Tesco's. Unfortunately, however, there is so much rejected stuff that mountains of it are simply thrown into skips (where at least the really poor folk can shop for nothing!). Crazy world, isn't it?



Why does a tomato rejected by Tesco and sold on a market stall taste better than a uniform one? Just curious, I agree tomatos sold in a green grocers taste better than from Tesco.


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 18, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Why does a tomato rejected by Tesco and sold on a market stall taste better than a uniform one? Just curious, I agree tomatos sold in a green grocers taste better than from Tesco.



The taste in your mouth for paying stupid money to a supermarket that has ridiculous rules is very bitter, therefore anything else, ie cheaper "odd shapes" Must taste better


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 18, 2013)

I take a walk round the  fruit and vegetable section at Tescos or Asda and iy all looks beautiful. Its well presented but as for taste it may as well be wax.


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## John H (Feb 18, 2013)

sparrks said:


> Why does a tomato rejected by Tesco and sold on a market stall taste better than a uniform one? Just curious, I agree tomatos sold in a green grocers taste better than from Tesco.



No idea. All I know is that when I am in England I rarely eat tomatoes (except home-grown ones) because they are flavourless. In Spain I eat them all the time because they are delicious - irrespective of the size and shape! 

Btw, I don't eat tomatoes from Spanish supermarkets either because they are generally not as tasty as the ones from the market stalls.


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 18, 2013)

However, the Lazy culture that has developed in this country is partly to blame.

I know young parents, male & female, that are on the breadline, yet still buy ready prepared vegetables in supermarkets.

They can't be bothered to peel and slice, even saying they don't know how too.

How can we have a generation that can't/won't peal a vegetable, never mind cook them.??

Sorry, but there's something missing in our parenting skills as a nation.

We've collectively kidded our children into believing that it's OK to buy,buy,buy without any care for the consequences.

Probably this is the wrong forum to go on about this as by reading many of the points of view on these forums, many of us DO care. But there's a great majority that have been hoodwinked from an early age that the only solution is to buy ready made everything and that knives, pointy things and matches are too dangerous.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 18, 2013)

*I'm no economist, but....*

Without wanting to be alarmist, in the words of Private Fraser off Dad's Army "We're all Doomed!".  But this is how I see it, and why we cannot expect any significant 'growth' or 'recovery' for the foreseeable future, possibly ever.

If the UK was to be compared to the man in the street, then that man would be homeless, with no job, no assets, no credit rating and no collateral at all.

Successive governments starting with Thatcher have basically held a Fire Sale of everything we the taxpayer owned to 'privatise' it.  So we have utilities and everything else in foreign ownership, or at least private ownership being run for profit, not for service.

E.g. the utility services got their infrastructure run into the ground instead of being maintained and invested in.
When 'privatised' the asset stock and infrastructure was sold off at a fraction of one percent of the asset value, let alone as a proportion of its business value (think of the trillions it would cost to establish a water or power network).
Basically the British taxpayer didn't understand what was going on, and got fleeced by their own successive incompetent elected representatives, and those nefarious unelected suits that really run everything called 'The Civil Service'.

Now I know the public sector needed sorting out and being run far, far better, but by flogging it off we basically lost all the assets that looked after the basic needs of the people.  The public sector needed to be run far better for sure, but at least the public sector employed more people making them taxpayers not on handouts.  The Utilities prime among them -  which used to run for service to the consumer, not for profits for some loaded guys with a portfolio and a swiss bank account.  

E.g. Welsh Water had to be bailed out once (of course by taxpayers money - just like the banks) - why?  Cos it was asset stripped by the 'private contractors' who had bid to run the service on behalf of Welsh Water had the staffing cut to pieces and the infrastructure maintenance cut to the bone -they basically took the money and ran.  This is my point - if a private business is run badly, then it can fail and shut down.  If a public utility is run the same way, then you can't just turn all the taps off, so the Government uses our money to pay to put right what was wrecked by fat cats now sat on a beach somewhere else with all the money.

So, we sold trillions of assets of public utility for pennies, then let the purchasers run it into the ground while making billions more at our expense, then bailed them out for billions more when it was ruined.  What a bloody fantastic model for running utilities efficiently THAT turned out to be.  Basically we got shafted (surprise, surprise!).

Gordon Brown ran things so badly that the only thing making our economy look good was the artificially inflated (by permitting ludicrously massive mortgage borrowing to support it) housing market.  GB must have known it was a house of cards, as it wasn't a sustainable income stream that could, would (and did) collapse.  I think he never tried to stop it, because he simply didn't have a clue what else to do, so he let it run until it imploded.

So now the UK doesn't actually OWN anything as it was all flogged off for a quick buck to shore up the fact that the economy was being 'run' awfully.  So we have no assets, and no real income stream other than 'financial services'.

In short, the UK is skint, and has nothing much left to sell (which if sold provides only the briefest respite and long-term makes an untenable situation even worse.  So 'economic recovery' is something politicians use as a dangling carrot, which has about as much potential reality as the Easter Bunny.

Basically if like me you are an ordinary working stiff whose never had a public sector job with its benefits and pensions, and has had to live with lower private sector wages (Wales) and little opportunity to save, then - you're screwed.  If you've been clever enough or fortunate enough to amass some wealth and property, and have been able to hold onto it, then you might be ok.

Our children and our children's children do not have a good environment ahead of them - the UK 'peaked' in the time of the working lives of the immediate post-war generation, and has been in decline for some time, which has been accelerated in my lifetime by appalling mismanagement.

Sorry to be so negative and 'doom & gloom'!

G.


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## sparrks (Feb 18, 2013)

Bigpeetee said:


> However, the Lazy culture that has developed in this country is partly to blame.
> 
> I know young parents, male & female, that are on the breadline, yet still buy ready prepared vegetables in supermarkets.
> 
> ...



I remember a few elections ago when a Tory MP suggested that if people were starving they should grow food in there gardens if they had them - common sense I thought, but not in Britain, he got slated in the press for that, when I was growing up most of the veg we ate came from our garden.



GRWXJR said:


> Without wanting to be alarmist, in the words of Private Fraser off Dad's Army "We're all Doomed!".  But this is how I see it, and why we cannot expect any significant 'growth' or 'recovery' for the foreseeable future, possibly ever.
> 
> If the UK was to be compared to the man in the street, then that man would be homeless, with no job, no assets, no credit rating and no collateral at all.
> 
> ...



It seems to me that a lot of the times private and public sector collaborations result in the private companies taking the profits and the tax payer get stung for the losses.

Why couldn't the 450billion or so that went on quantative easing be spent on infrastructure, at least we would have something to show for it.


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## Irritable Owl (Feb 18, 2013)

Gwrxjr is right..mthe final knife in the back was the note left by the minister when labour left office saying there's no money left...
Labour did a lousy job and left office like they always do..leaving the country in a sorry state.
The current coalition us doing a lousy job, focusing on things that are irrelevant ie gay marriage rather than focusing on things that matter..
I am working harder now and making less money than I was when labour first came into power.
What's the solution.. I have no idea.. 
I just hope everyone gets by.... My own circle of friends have drawn closer, each of us helping each other wherever possible and making the most of what paying jobs we get..pooling recources rather than buying new when we don't need too...
Good luck to us all


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## GRWXJR (Feb 18, 2013)

Just to add...

The REALLY scary thing about the above situation (i.e. the UK is potless) is that the tool that The Labour Party wanted to employ to drag the UK out of recession was to 'spend our way out' - i.e. borrow even more money to spend to 'stimulate' the economy.

How mental is that?  And, as the man on the street simply doesn't like 'austerity measures' or higher taxation (and is used to the fact that the Uk has been living beyond its earnings and means for decades, and hiding this fact by flogging off the family silver under the counter) actually seriously considered electing Labour to implement this mad manisfesto.  What a great idea, lets get a short-term boost and a massive long -term greater debt millstone - that'll sort it out!

Its not the fact it was Labour - its the fact that ANY organisation can come up with such a mental proposal and expect to be taken seriously as suitable to run the country and its economy should make us all shudder.

I'm not a Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat, Monster Raving Loony, UKIP or any other 'party'.  I tend to think that anyone who wants to be a politician is either wanting to get his nose in the trough, or so seriously deluded that he thinks he knows better than anyone else how to run the country.  Either way, it should be that anyone wanting to be a politician should automatically be excluded from being able to become one IMO.  in general i  find them all to be self-serving and contemptible, and totally incompetent.

In the meantime, while running the country's economy like the worst spendthrift and naive teenagers, our politicians have seen fit to also behave like we are a vast super-power and open our borders to every waif and stray and give them what little of our taxes doesn't pay their wages, the extra 1.5 million public sector workers Labour hired to make the figures look good, and the vast national debt to feed, house and provide barristers for the incoming immigrants in a style that me and mine have never been able to comprehend (as I'm one of the stupid ones who works for a living in the private sector).

Oh yes, and we mustn't forget our Foreign Aid policy which gives countries like India squillions of pounds when their economy makes ours look like the pathetic maimed and limping near-carcass that it is.  Charity is one thing, but all we seem to do is hand over piles of cash and little if any of it makes its way to those who truly need it, instead it disappears in bureaucracy, and is probably keeping an awful lot of politicians in very fine style instead.

Its now too late - the UK has basically been raped and pillaged and is now too far gone to ever be able to recover properly IMO.  Its a dreadful shame, but it is difficult for me to find much to be proud about, about broken Britain.  Its a shame, but if I won the Lottery Jackpot (or 'Supertax for the Stupid' as my mate calls it) then I think I'd be seriously considering relocating to somewhere else - just like all the money earned and paid here for goods and services that we used to own does.

Rant over (honest this time!):dance:!


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## sp2 boy (Feb 18, 2013)

I agree that the problem will not improve without alot of pain, however people hate pain and will do whatever to avoid it. Politicians know this and if they promise people that it will all be better by next Tuesday and that everybody will be eating Ice-cream if they get voted in, then the general population will vote them in. After all who wants austerity and pain even if it is the only way out.

The UK will rise again but it will take a long long time, we need to get so desperate as a nation that we are prepared to do almost anything to earn money, even make crappy plastic rubbish as some nations have done to rebuild wealth.

Sadly however, as a nation we are so far away from an acceptance of these facts and it will take decades for it to improve. Thinking that we have the ability to make high-end products but getting the cheaper nations to manufacture them so making good profit for doing little work is a false dream, at best only a few people can do this and only a few more will benefit financially from this type of practice...what about everybody else!


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## GRWXJR (Feb 18, 2013)

There's  a saying that I don't know the origin of, or ven the exact wording, but its something along the ,lines of....

"The people get the representation they deserve"

Basically, here in the UK the average man on the street is so apathetic and ignorant of politics and particularly economics that he's just too damned easy to fool.  Just get a spin-docter to cook up something basically unimportant in the great scheme of the country's operations and make a massive furore about it (Hunting, Gay Rights etc etc) to misdirect the public and get them to vote on the small things and ignore the big issues (which they dont understand anyway).

As a nation, we are MUCH more ignorant about economics than the rest of Europe.  Ask 99% a question about the Balance of payments, Gross Domestic Product, or the effect of interest rates as a means to regulate inflation and the value of currency and you'll be met with a blank stare.

The fact that our politicians are all seen as basically crooks and people who lie whenever their lips are moving, and who will say one thing and then do entirely another has just meant that our collective apathy and feeling of being unable to affect the outcome and that we might as just let them get on with it gets greater and greater.

The truth is that the few that have even the slightest grasp of the situation will always be overwhelmed by those that will vote (say) Labour simply cos they always have, or Lib Dem cos they are nice to Social workers, or Conservative cos they are an employer or because Party A says it'll do more for pensioners, or any other thing that is minor in the big picture.

Pensioners... Right now these guys pretty much control the electorate.  Why?  Cos its mainly the pensioners that bother to turn out and vote in any numbers (while the rest simply think all Politicians are a waste of space so why bother).  The percentage turnouts to vote now are lousy.  The thing is, we have this perception that pensioners are wise and have experience and knowledge, and will vote sensibly and with the best interests of the nation at heart.  The reality of course is that just as many Pensioners as any other demographic vote about whatever little thing it is that bugs them, and ignores the bigger picture.

So, back to Private Fraser again.... "We're all Doomed!!"


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## mitzimad (Feb 18, 2013)

after 35 years self employed plumber and heating ive gone back to agency work on building sites and im in london  no body is spending anything they dont have to when there is work they want it for less than they can get it done by the lituanian  odd job man


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## GeoffB (Feb 18, 2013)

Each day brings some new scandal to show how badly the country is run.  The politicians' answer to this all is to become *less* democratic.  The turn-out rate for national, local, by and other (eg police commissioner) elections is dropping in this country but that doesn't shame those who get elected - they forget any promises they made while filling their pockets during their time in office and setting up nice little earners for themselves for afterwards.  Parliament has more or less stopped making significant laws anyway - they're mostly made in Europe or by judges at home and abroad. In Europe it's worse - technocrat governments imposed on Italy and Greece, and sod their voters, and the President of Europe nominated by a small cabal, not by popular vote.  Yet it could be so different - there's no reason why a popular vote should be sought on many issues; we have the technology.  But they wouldn't dare ask us - instead we continue to operate a system set up before steam locomotion or radio was invented, designed for a mainly rural and illiterate electorate. The result is that voters here and across Europe lose faith in the system.  We're setting ourselves up for a dictatorship at some time in the near future.  We never learn.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 18, 2013)

Its all too late.

The political system is fully furnished with the self-serving, not public-serving.  And that now cannot change without something of truly revolutionary and economically disastrous 'upheaval' of some kind.

Why?  because there cannot be a shift back toward a more public-serving elected parliament, that's why.  How long do you think any elected member who genuinely wanted to truly represent the best interests of his constituency would last amongst the rest of the rabid trough-feeders?  They'd turn on him and rend him to shreds before he could upset the status quo and get any more like him in there to spoil the free ride.  And that's before the Civil Servants (now THERE'S a misnomer if ever there was one) got hold of the guy!

Many years ago, our local council got a newly elected member just like this - he really wanted to do something positive for the area.  At council meetings this guy was a Dove sat in a room full of Ravens.  He didn't last long - they made sure he resigned and never sought office again.

The truth of it is that we really can't change the inevitable - which is to let the politicians and the civil servants keep on getting away with murder - we simply cannot stop it, and the collective people are too dense to even have an inkling that anything is wrong - they just know if the pension allowance isn't being put up, or if the price of petrol is being put up more by one lot or the other - nothing more substantial than that.

As has been said, we've devolved much of our parliaments responsibility fro decision-making to Brussels.  We still NEED though, something like (not sure the exact multiplier) several TIMES the number of elected politicians to run the UK than the is felt is necessary to run the USA!

We are all being screwed, and there seems there's absolutely nothing we can do about it!


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## landydriver (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## sp2 boy (Feb 18, 2013)

landydriver said:


> As I said in another thread QE created 375 billion from thin air...thats £6000 for every man/woman/child in the country...and there is nothing to show for it except debt write off.
> They can say inflation is 2 what ever % but thats lies..there is a 375bn devaluation going on in the background. Really things are not worth more...its the money thats worth 375bn less.  A oz of gold is a oz of gold....it use to cost $500 an oz now its $1500 an oz....but its still 1oz of gold....money is worth much less...375bn in the uk less!!!  The ££ is worth less worldwide...all imported stuff (everything) costs more but we can sell abroad for less.
> You cant invent money from thin air without inflation (which they say we dont have!!!)  or devaluation....so take your pick.



I never thought of it like that but you're right.

I always viewed it that if whatever I owned could be sold for more money than it had been bought for, then it had risen in value. However it is as you say, _the money has devalued_, unless everything else had stayed the price it cost before, when the item was originally bought!

I suppose the game is to find something that gains a better return compared to other items over the same period.


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## MATS (Feb 18, 2013)

*The Bright Side of Life*

yes maybe all doom and gloom but looking on the bright side we the wild campers tend to be quite good at making money stretch - ie we might not go as far but we make the most of what is out there in terms of freebie parking!!


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## sp2 boy (Feb 19, 2013)

David you can see the sort of things that I make on the following blog

Oronero100's Blog

Peter


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## sp2 boy (Feb 19, 2013)

David send me an email so that I then have your email address. 

The Kodax works at Wealdstone are a fraction of the size they were years ago, alot of it has been torn down, though if they have built on them in the last year I am unsure as I am no longer in Harrow. I have headed up north to see if it is indeed grim, my conclusion is that there are places in London that are worse!


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## sp2 boy (Feb 19, 2013)

I grew up closer to Ealing than Harrow, your lads machine sounds like a very tricked missile, your lower-spec'd trackday bike still seems like a rocket-ship compared to the 120 odd horses my bike allegedly pushes out at the wheel and the bevels push out even less. :scared:


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## Ste (Feb 19, 2013)

And aren't these quiet country roads we've now got just heaven!!!!!!

I put £40 in my Gti on sunday & had a riot around the Lake District! It was sheer bliss 

Can't wait til summer when I'm back in Scotland with my van!!


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## GRWXJR (Feb 19, 2013)

[No message]


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## GRWXJR (Feb 19, 2013)

Typical - the Pembrey meeting is on the same weekend as Morgan's Hereford meet, which I'm down provisionally down for, and the scary half fancies going to as well.  These things always clash eh?

But... I like Oulton and its a very nice run from mine up there through mid-Wales, so have the option of going on the bike, or the Van.  Its also around my birthday, so I may treat myself :lol-053:

Been to Pembrey to such meetings in the past, and yes they are good racing and good fun.  The circuit is good to ride.  I did a few track days there, on hopelessly uncompetitive kit, but got some (comparatively) decent lap times and tussles charging around in the fast group on an old Kawa GT750 shaftie (yes, really) and then a Yam FZ750 on cross-plies among the 916's, GRXR600's, SRAD's and Blades around 1996 - 2000.  Great fun.

Recall being quite chuffed lapping faster than Tiff Needell testing a new Porsche Boxster, then getting brought down to earth with a bump when Troy Bayliss tested his GSE Duke there and went around in a lap time that would have him lapping me at my best in about 7 laps (hey - its only a 1.5 mile lap and I was on a 1987 bike with about 75Hp on skinny cross-plies, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! :lol-053.

I'm sure you'll enjoy Pembrey - but make sure you take your winter woollies - like most coastal airfield circuits, the really warm and hot days are very few and far between, and its pretty blowy there a lot of the time.


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 19, 2013)

Thanks for all your interesting replies/comments. Sorry to break up the motorbike party Boys but back to the matter in hand !.

sp2boy, GWRXJR & GeoffB alluded to a serious decline before the UK could rise again. About 1990 my old boss, a very erudite character, warned me to watch out for a rise in Islamic fervour - which turned out to be a brilliant prediction 23 years ago !. He also told me that the UK would, & would have to, enter a period of near terminal decline before it could rise again & that I would likely see this happen within my lifetime (I was a lot younger then !) - looks like he could be proved right again.

GWRXJR - you have a refreshing attitude to our politicians if I may say so. Years ago, for a while, I worked as a paid part time Election organiser for a national political party (OK I was young, with strong principles, & stupid !) that prided itself on fairness, equality blah blah etc.. What I saw horrified me - the dishonesty, the greedy grasping venality,the lack of any real nouse or knowledge of how to successfully run a country, the almost complete lack of any real heart-felt concern for the future of our country or it's people. This included various well known names up to & including Cabinet Minister level, I was shocked & appalled & have never taken any professional politician seriously since.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 19, 2013)

They play with motorbikes while Rome burns :lol-053: 

Rock on, lads


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## sp2 boy (Feb 19, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> They play with motorbikes while Rome burns :lol-053:
> 
> Rock on, lads



Marie, I try to earn a living from it! :juggle: 

However it is difficult when the bikes in question tend to be other people's toy and when they are feeling 'the pinch' that's exactly where they cut back on their spending...the last two years have been challenging!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 19, 2013)

sp2 boy said:


> Marie, I try to earn a living from it! :juggle:
> 
> However it is difficult when the bikes in question tend to be other people's toy and when they are feeling 'the pinch' that's exactly where they cut back on their spending...the last two years have been challenging!



'twas only me poking fun! 

Nice way to make a living though


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## kimbowbill (Feb 19, 2013)

Bigpeetee said:


> However, the Lazy culture that has developed in this country is partly to blame.
> 
> I know young parents, male & female, that are on the breadline, yet still buy ready prepared vegetables in supermarkets.
> 
> ...



I've always done my own but when you can buy 1kg of chopped carrot and turnip for 50p in Asda, and its keeping someone in a job, now that's a no brainer for me


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 19, 2013)

i think you would know if it had horseradish in there!

They do bulk up manufactured horseradish *sauce* with other veggies like turnip, though...


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 19, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> i think you would know if it had horseradish in there!
> 
> They do bulk up manufactured horseradish *sauce* with other veggies like turnip, though...



i think you might have missed the horse joke there Marie


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 19, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Nah, I'm sure she got the saucy joke allright.



Joke's on me then!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 20, 2013)

jamesmarshall said:


> i think you might have missed the horse joke there Marie



Doh! You're right, I did...


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## kimbowbill (Feb 20, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Doh! You're right, I did...



:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053: did ya? :lol-053::lol-053::lol-053: ya loon xx


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 20, 2013)

kimbowbill said:


> :lol-053::lol-053::lol-053::lol-053: did ya? :lol-053::lol-053::lol-053: ya loon xx



You shouldn't be surprised Jen!  You already know how blinkin' slow and dippy I can be :lol-053:


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## Big bed camper (Feb 21, 2013)

can't be anything wrong with the economy for many people, judging by the amount of Bingo, casino sites advertised on T.V. it seems we must all have more money than we know what to do with..................


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 21, 2013)

Big bed camper said:


> can't be anything wrong with the economy for many people, judging by the amount of Bingo, casino sites advertised on T.V. it seems we must all have more money than we know what to do with..................



Apparently there's a massive, and growing, problem with gambling in the UK, Big bed.

Gordon Brown loved it


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 21, 2013)

Big bed camper said:


> can't be anything wrong with the economy for many people, judging by the amount of Bingo, casino sites advertised on T.V. it seems we must all have more money than we know what to do with..................



No problem. All you need do if you lose your money on the Bingo site is take advantage of one of the many adverts that go out at the same time for pay day loans or accident and injury lawyers.


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 21, 2013)

Take out the pay day loan to play bingo, get addicted and then use the lawyers to sue the gambling sites for your addiction. Time for bed said Zebedee!


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 21, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Do you really believe it's as easy as that? It's because of highly educated bright Americans loaning money they had no realistic chance of recovering that the world's finances are screwed.
> So why would the uneducated and not so bright amongst us think gambling's a bad thing? And why should they not expect to get bailed out either come to that. Think on folks. DOHHHHHH !



No I don't really believe it. It was a light hearted comment on the number of advertisements for loans, injury lawyers and gambling sites that proliferate day time television. But you new that already didn't you Flip Flap.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

> It's because of highly educated bright Americans loaning money they had no realistic chance of recovering that the world's finances are screwed.



Well, that can't of helped! (As I understand it though - even more mental is their housing market, as unlike here, if you can't make the mortgage payments, you have the right just to vacate, and hand the property back to the back with no penalty, negative equity, nothing - free n clear!  So there's nothing stoppoing anybody taking on a property they probably cannot sustain as long as a lender is daft enough to take a chance on them.  So USA banks got loads of property's handed back to them worth less than was borrowed against them and stuck with a portfolio worth billions less that they couldn't shift).

But..... we can't blame anyone else but our own Governments and Civil Servants for our mess.  I think no-one has wanted to risk the wrath and upset of the electorate for decades by telling them that we are a small country without a pile of commonwealth cash coming in any more, and we've been living beyond our means for decades.  We aren't a superpower any more, just a small rock on the periphery of Europe with delusions of grandeur for an Empire long since faded away.

We needed to pull our belts in and accept our waning income and global standing after the end of WWII with our massive American debt for all those tanks n planes etc. and the break-up of the Empire (e.g. India's Independence in 1948 etc. etc.) and the huge loss of income to the Uk from it.

Instead, we've carried on with spending even though we didn't have the money, so we've spent decades borrowing more while earning less, and with open borders and free trade, and massive immigration and social policies that add a financial burden thats grown way beyond sustainability.  Humane policies that while very laudable and humane simply cannot be sustained.  While I can feel for asylum seekers and so forth, a lot who came here did so as they could get what they couldn't elsewhere (and would simply relocate again if these things were closed to them here - harsh but true).  The sorry truth is that we should have closed the borders, benefits and laws permitting this influx ages ago as the country simply cannot afford it - we'll be like an overloaded lifeboat and we'll sink with everyone, when we could have saved a sustainable load IMO.

We needed to cut outgoings and cut our cloth according to our finances decades ago and accept lower standards of services and so on to fit our falling income as a nation.  But we didn't as politicians were either too thick or too weak to tell it like it is to the nation.  The UK is on the downward part of a curve.

All countries economies have tended to be cyclic across history - as a nation 'A' gets wealthier the aspirations and demands of its residents grows.  So goods and exports from 'A' become more expensive, and some new kid country 'B' develops and does things cheaper and grows, while 'A' suffers decline.  Eventually 'B' peaks like 'A' did, and meanwhile 'C', 'D' & 'E' are on the way up, and (if run well) 'A' might be able to regroup and compete too.

Trouble is, the UK is 'A' in my example above, but with successive appallingly bad decision-making and mis-management, so it has never really staged a comeback - its flogged off its assets to short-term sustain its overspend with no attention to the long-term crisis ths would (and has) caused.

In the childs story of 'The Grasshopper & The Ant' the UK has been a Grasshopper fro a very long time, and is seems it will have to starve and freeze to death as it can't get its collective head around this fact.

I do try not to be quite this 'cheerful' down the pub though :lol-053:!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 21, 2013)

That's not to say the same wouldn't have happened even with the B of E in charge....


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

> I beg to differ, blame Americans allowing capitalism to get out of control.



My opinion is that the Americans caused their model of capitalism to implode.  We (or any other nation) didn't have to copy the Americans like Lemmings.  Economists rather than dumb politicians could see that we were selling the house from under us to hide the fact that we were overspending on the housekeeping from the outset.

Yes, we'll always be affected by the European and Global Economy, but we've never shifted with the times and the circumstances - instead we've continued pressing the long-term self-destruct button.  We can't blame the Yanks for this - our Govt is responsible for the UK, we could have taken a more sensible path to protecting and sustaining the remaining wealth of the country by controlling wages, inflation etc. and holding on to our public utilities and assets, thus circulation far more of our money back into the UK economy.  Instead it all goes abroad  - the profits disappear from the UK purse and all we get is lots of minimum wage jobs so we can generate greater profit for a foreign /global company and wealthy shareholder somewhere - and all so you can get water out of your tap, or a light come on when you flick a switch to add to their incomes while the householders bills fro poorer service skyrocket.

Economics are often the true reason for Global Conflict.  e.g. who believes the USA went steaming into Iraq for the WMD's?  More like they did so for the Oil, as the USA has to import about 90% of its oil to sustain itself and its economy.  No oil, and the USA is just one big chunk of ground with a population starving and back in the dark ages.  If push comes to shove IMO they'll pick a big fight with someone with their superior firepower stockpile to get their hands on what they need if they can't get it any other way (affordably).  They won't just go 'ok then' and go quietly into the night.  But that's a whole new and terrifying concept and conversation!

But there's little point in us looking to 'blame' the Americans for our mess - the UK had its own choice of policy and management and made a bloody hash of it IMO.  There's a danger is saying its someone else's fault, as that then suggests a lack of responsibility at home, so nothing happens.  The UK Govt needs to (even though its closing the door after the horse has been sold off too cheaply) grasp this nettle or (once again Private Fraser!) - "WE'RE ALL DOOMED!"

(I'll never be welcome at a Meet after this - attendees would be worried I'd have them wanting to dangle from branches if they speak to me :lol-053


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

Well done David! 

I just spout personal opinion and overview generalities of doom and gloom (cos I'm not that well-versed or have in-depth knowledge and freely admit my drivel is just my own take on things more than anything else), but that's some proper detail there :lol-053:!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 21, 2013)

The cancer was in all the banks; American, British, whatever.

I still doubt that the Bank of England would have been able to prevent the crash happening.
The fraud appears to have been too widespread and deep, imo.

Interesting to note that the criminals are still loose and the fraud is still continuing...


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

I have a feeling a large part of the issue now that simply the large corporations (be they banks or businesses) are now independent and global enterprises with no real affiliation or care for ANY country - the country is just something to feed off while paying it back as little as possible, and when it becomes more costly or more hassle to make the money they expect as a return, then they will pull the plug without compunction and happily leave individuals and the country as a whole in the lurch.

The ONLY protection a nation has (or ought to have or have had) against the bullying, rape and pillage of the country by global corporations and business is the Government IMO.

And (IMO) IF the UK (starting with Maggie, who [if she was still in possession of her marbles anymore] should be treated as a traitor to her country by flogging off all the citizens property to those same global corps through privatisation, as should every Politician who has continued the Fire sale ever since) had held on to the utilities and all key businesses, so that they operated with the best interests of the Uk at their core instead of to their own multi-national, uber-wealthy board memebers and shareholders.

So new we have no protection from, and utter dependence upon massive companies who are totally self-serving and fickle and care nothing at all whether you live or die in the final analysis.  Its a case of 'not our problem, blame your Government' if they close a plant or shift production to China as we didn't give them anything they wanted (e.g. massive tax concessions, free land and factories etc. etc. so they will grace us with giving us some minimum wage jobs in return, and take all their profitrs and invest them and spend them elsewhere.

This is why I keep saying, 'its too late already' and that 'we're all doomed'.  The gap between the haves and have nots cannot do anything other than widen, and Government has sold anything that might have enabled them to buffer the majority of their citizens from the worst.  If (like me and so many others) you don't already have a big pile of assets to see you through your days already, then do not expect a social system and service to support you in your dotage - cos I really can't see where the hell that can come from.  Enjoy life today folks, cos that's all we have.

(God I AM depressing :raofl


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## sp2 boy (Feb 21, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Realistic though unfortunately. Maggie sold us down the river and big business has shown its true colours eventually. Thing is the cheeky ba$tards expect to be bailed out by us when they screw up.



...with successive Governments bailing them out with our money.

If only they had gone to the wall we could have restarted with a clean state and a wiser knowledge of what not to do...instead we are burdened!


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 21, 2013)

sp2 boy said:


> ...with successive Governments bailing them out with our money.
> 
> If only they had gone to the wall we could have restarted with a clean state and a wiser knowledge of what not to do...instead we are burdened!



Iceland didn't go far enough.

Rebellion of the Outraged

Take note of the last comments on the page.

According to this website, nothing short of revolution will remove the yoke of debt.

Interesting times we live in.
Certainly more lively (and potentially dangerous) than we've know for quite some time


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## sparrks (Feb 21, 2013)

As it's been said many times before - "if a bank's too big to fail, then it's too big to exist" is something I agree with. I think that it should be made clear to all Banks, that they screw up they will not be bailed out.

The Chief Execs and heads of large organisations get paid silly money to do their jobs. It should be so that when someone is in such a position, their personal wealth is tied into that job, so that if for example a bank fails through their wrong doing they lose everything, liberty and property and not walk away with multi-million pound payoffs. It just might make them more responsable.


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 21, 2013)

Big bed camper said:


> can't be anything wrong with the economy for many people, judging by the amount of Bingo, casino sites advertised on T.V. it seems we must all have more money than we know what to do with..................





mariesnowgoose said:


> Apparently there's a massive, and growing, problem with gambling in the UK, Big bed.
> 
> Gordon Brown loved it



Maybe surprising to most (all ?) of us on here that there are people who really believe that one big win will solve their financial problems. The casino/hotel/resorts in Las Vegas have standby teams to return punters who have gambled & lost everything, including their homes & motorcars back to their home towns. In Naples, Italy the addiction to Bingo of the poorer sections of society in the hope of a big win is becoming a real problem. 
Bankers have really got the right idea; they only gamble with other people's money then retain the profits themselves whilst loading any losses onto the other punters (i.e. us !). I least i can walk into our (empty) pub with a clear eye & head held high, it would be even better if I could afford a beer !!.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

> Maybe surprising to most (all ?) of us on here that there are people who really believe that one big win will solve their financial problems.



When you look at it, its not surprising at all.  When you know your future is bleak due to the state of the country and the financial crises that are too far gone to fix then (even if you don't really understand any of this) Joe Public can work out that his only chance of a big pile of cash is to get some kind of windfall.  As most won't have that rich Uncle about to pop his clogs then where else are they to get this money unless they are prepared to become crooks?

Ever increasingly the post-war working-class & middle-class (generations who were in the just the right part of history to have been able to accrue any wealth in any numbers) are not saving their money and leaving legacies to their children, but realising that 'they can't take it with them' and are enjoying retirement and spending it.  So, once the last of the generations with any money have gone and that money is no longer in circulation (at least with those that really need it) then we'll see a bigger gap between the haves and have nots IMO.

If you started work in the 1950's or 60's and bought a house, then inside of maybe 5 or 7 years it's be worth 5 - 10 times what you paid for it.  So just by holding down a job and making the hard payments in the first year or 2 you accrued wealth.  As wages kept pace with inflation, you had a home worth 10x what you paid, and a mortage a much smaller proportion of your income.  Win-win, and no speculation or nouse required - just go to work and don't be daft.  Then (even without moving or doing anything) just keep on doing the same while your house gets more and more valuable and your outgoings get less an less.  So you can save, or invest in more property or whatever.  The situation has long been different and those circumstances will never return.  My parents are examples of this - but until it was pointed out to them they had no idea that fortunate time of birth had done anything to aid their situation, and that things were so much harder now.

So, what does the ordinary working stiff have now to ease his passage to solvency?  Not much, if anything.  So it can be no surprise that the masses are either buying lotto tickets, scratch cards, bingo, betting or gambling (or combos of all) as it seems to be the only way they are ever going to have a hope of having any wealth, so they have to hope the astronomical odds of a 'Big Win' happen for them.


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## landydriver (Feb 21, 2013)

.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 21, 2013)

Yep - the main benefit of my house to me is that my mortgage is less than it'd cost me now to rent the same place, so it helps a bit.

The only way to get the money as you say is to sell - but this only realises cash of you can downsize and pocket the difference. in this day and age if I 'downsized' from my place then as mine is probably worth a bit less than yours here in Wales then I couldn't get anything else.

So the saving over rental is the only tangible benefit.


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## yorkslass (Feb 21, 2013)

landydriver said:


> I bought my house  And yes its probably doubled in price but thats just numbers.
> 
> Say my house is worth £100000, Yes (some will say lucky sod)  I have a 100k worth of bricks but its not worth anything really as I have to live in it.
> 
> ...



always assuming that it hasnt vanished into a care home black hole.:scared:


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## scampa (Feb 22, 2013)

'Scuse me for interrupting, but I must say that there's a lot of common-sense and wisdom on this thread. Makes me proud to be a wildcamper!!

If you could all organise yourselves into some kind of party before the next election, and allocate roles, then I would vote for you! (Just need to decide on a suitable name?)  :nicethread:


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## GRWXJR (Feb 22, 2013)

> If you could all organise yourselves into some kind of party before the next election, and allocate roles, then I would vote for you! (Just need to decide on a suitable name?)



To paraphrase the great Groucho Marx....

"I'd never be a member of any party, that would have ME as a member!"


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## GRWXJR (Feb 22, 2013)

Going back to the Water Board here in Wales as an example of the 'Big Co' ripoff of public services....

A mate who worked for them (and who then got his contract taken over by the 'Contractor') told me that the Co bid for the contract at a value that they KNEW was too cheap to be able to turn a profit and sustain the business.

As they were cheapest they of course won a 5-year contract (and the Beancounters with no clue will want to eviscerate anyone who didn't go with the cheapest bid, so the cheapest always wins, as Managers aren't going to put their own job in jeopardy trying to make a sensible call when going with the Beancounters gets them left in peace).  This bunch promptly set about getting rid of as many staff as possible, and then cutting out or greatly extending things like Maintenance of Plant, not bothering with upkeep of building fabric and grounds, keeping the vehicles way past their expected Asset life - basically every short-term trick to generate short-term returns for the shareholders dividend (at the ultimate vast expense of the customer and taxpayer).

They had to know that if they took the money by doing this, that the infrastructure would break down and the costs would accrue so that there would be a BIG problem.  However, I think it entirely possible that this was the plan all along - squeeze every drop out to ruination, then take the money and run.  Surely this has to verge on either the Criminal, or at very very least Criminal  Negligence, not to mention serious breach of contract.  However - being a big global enterprise, then its all smoke and mirrors, and those who should be held accountable have vanished and are untouchable.  People should be in Jail for pulling stunts like this, but of course they'll be sunning themselves in Mauritius with their 6 or 7 digit bank balances instead.

Finally (and for once something has happened that I can agree with) -Welsh Water kicked out its contractors, took the staff back on direct and restructured as a not-for-profit organisation so they could maintain the system without having a gun held to their heads by the suits with their portfolio's.  I dare say its far from perfect, but its got to be better than being fleeced and the the kit run into the ground by unscrupulous and underhanded big businesses.

Now what we need is for a lot MORE of this to happen IMO and for public utilities to oust the grasping, cheating, thieving corporations and regain control of OUR assets and services.  Viva la Revolution!:hammer::hammer:


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 22, 2013)

scampa said:


> 'Scuse me for interrupting, but I must say that there's a lot of common-sense and wisdom on this thread. Makes me proud to be a wildcamper!!
> 
> If you could all organise yourselves into some kind of party before the next election, and allocate roles, then I would vote for you! (Just need to decide on a suitable name?)  :nicethread:



How about The National Apathy Party (NAP for short). I would get it off the ground but I can't be bothered right now.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 22, 2013)

> How about The National Apathy Party (NAP for short).



How About....

*C*ampervanners *R*allying *A*gainst *P*oliticians.   Hmm, maybe not


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## MATS (Feb 22, 2013)

*fuel going up again*

and article in Times today predicts fuel going up again 4p by easter - even quieter roads ahead.


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 22, 2013)

Just gone up to 147.9p at our local garage.

Used to be one of the cheapest around, now the most expensive.
Dunno what they're playing at, their forecourt has died the death!

Now wait until I need to make a trip further afield then fill up at cheaper garages while I'm there.

Fuel costs are crippling everything


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Just gone up to 147.9p at our local garage.
> 
> Used to be one of the cheapest around, now the most expensive.
> Dunno what they're playing at, their forecourt has died the death!
> ...



A lot of these fluctuations that you are seeing is caused by deliveries - the garages with the most turnover and therefore deliveries seem to have the most volatile prices. An independant with a lower volume of sales while have less volatile prices but bigger increases. I think that when prices are rising rapidly the independants are the cheapest, but on the rare occasions that prices fall then the independants are far dearer. That's just my view.


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2013)

The price of crude is also on it's way back down.


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 22, 2013)

So unbeknown to us they are scrapping the new carbon tax due in April & defying the EU by keeping open those coal fired power stations that we promised to close this year ??.  IMO this is a particularly important year by which to judge our leader's real attitudes re the UK's long term survival as an independent sovereign nation.


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## John H (Feb 22, 2013)

sparrks said:


> A lot of these fluctuations that you are seeing is caused by deliveries - the garages with the most turnover and therefore deliveries seem to have the most volatile prices. An independant with a lower volume of sales while have less volatile prices but bigger increases. I think that when prices are rising rapidly the independants are the cheapest, but on the rare occasions that prices fall then the independants are far dearer. That's just my view.



I don't know how the system works but in my local area the Jet garages are always cheaper than the supermarkets (although I have been in Spain since September so things may have changed!). I don't know what clout the chain has but I would guess it is not a match for Sainsbury's or Tesco - so what the hell is going on there?


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## mariesnowgoose (Feb 22, 2013)

John H said:


> I don't know how the system works but in my local area the Jet garages are always cheaper than the supermarkets (although I have been in Spain since September so things may have changed!). I don't know what clout the chain has but I would guess it is not a match for Sainsbury's or Tesco - so what the hell is going on there?



John, our local is a Jet garage, but their prices have gone sky high in the last 4 months after being the cheapest for ages.


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## John H (Feb 22, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> John, our local is a Jet garage, but their prices have gone sky high in the last 4 months after being the cheapest for ages.



Oh bugger! :rolleyes2:


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## GRWXJR (Feb 22, 2013)

> So unbeknown to us they are scrapping the new carbon tax due in April & defying the EU by keeping open those coal fired power stations that we promised to close this year ??



There's probably little option, unless you like being in the dark.  Successive gov's have faffed about about Nuclear cos of being worried about upsetting the electorate and losing the best gig.  As I said before - they asked the people 'do you want nuclear?' so naturally they all said no (Ooh, a vote loser - can't have that!).  So its been fudged while our power stations age and can't cope.

Now - if they'd asked Joe public 'which would you prefer, nuclear or being in the dark with increasing power cuts and periods without supply?' you can bet your bottom dollar the concensus would have been 'Nuclear Power please!'.

But politicians seem to be galactically thick, and didn't ask the right question.  So now we can either keep on burning coal and emitting hydrocarbons, or be in the dark - cos it takes about 15 years to commission a nuclear Power Station, and we need a few of em as I understand it.

My guess is this 'strong stance' by Cameron and keeping the coal-fired stations is a smokescreen (sic) for abject necessity - parcelled up as strong leadership.

But then - we couldn't hope for a Politician to give you a straightforward and honest reason now could we eh?


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## Tow Itch (Feb 26, 2013)

If you're old enough the phrase "Electricity too cheap to meter" might ring a bell. It was lies given to a gullible public for the governments own ends. If we're equally gullible now we (and our children) will get what we deserve.  As the newly generated electricity will be provided by private companies, that in itself causes as much a chill as winter I wonder have no other questions been posed. I can see many a company building (with suitable subsidies) nuclear power stations. Running them will also be no problem but mysteriously when it comes to decommissioning time I see the subsidiary companies mysteriously declaring bankruptcy and none of the great or good in British politics having seen it coming. 
 I see the myth of man made global warming lasting long enough to saddle us with these monstrosities. With UK research a thing of the past a foreign controlled monstrosity to. May vain hope is a government far sighted enough to look at energy resources as being more important than it's fear of it's own population and the re launch of mining in the UK. Numbers employed would not be the same for I doubt we would look at deep mining and opencast would be the visually blighting short term result.


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 26, 2013)

We are living an Alice in Wonderland existance and sadly there is little chance of us waking up from it in the immediate future. 

The Carbon tax, put in place as part of the EU anti-pollution directive is ridiculous. It penalises our high energy using industries such as glass production and aluminium processing. In order to overcome this the EU has come up with a wheeze to support these high energy industries whereby the tax is transferred to us via our energy bills. 

The Labour government was at the vanguard of this highly expensive renewable energy programme but the present government has continued down the same path with equal relish. Wind turbines are proliferating our countryside and many more are yet to be built, both on and off shore at tremendous expense. 

Private companies are paid a higher premium for supplying green energy to the national grid and if the wind is too strong at a time when extra energy is not needed, the energy companies are asked to turn off the turbines and are compensated (at the higher premium) for the energy they could have produced. Meanwhile every old style power station is needed to remain ticking over in order to be able to compensate, at a moments notice, for the energy that cannot be produced by the wind turbines when the wind doesn't blow. 

On Monday last week the wind barely blew and all of the 4,300 wind turbines together were producing a mere 0.1% of the energy needed to supply the National Grid. The demand had to be met by conventional power stations. Despite this the government is set to close six coal fired power stations next month. 

It is estimated that building enough wind turbines able to produce similar energy to one conventional gas powered station costs two to three times more. The EU answer to this is to double energy prices in order to make green energy appear a good and viable option. Prepare to watch your energy bills go through the roof over the next couple of years and buy a Tilley Lamp and a Onesie.

Recent research from Aberdeen University suggests that wind turbines built on land may produce more carbon than they purportedly save. The reasoning behind this is that the turbines are often built on peat moorland and the roads and infrastructure built to erect and service the turbines dries out the peat which in turn gives off the carbon dioxide it has captured into the atmosphere as it dries.

There are no plans at present to build any nuclear power stations. A French company was approached and asked to give an estimate for the designing, building and running of one but the company later pulled out. It would take approximately six years to design and commission a nuclear power station so don't hold your breath on that one. 

Carbon capture technology has been mooted but at present it is only a theoretical idea and has not been proven to be viable.

The EU energy policy is an absolute shambles that is set to force god knows how many people into fuel poverty and it is being pursued with an almost evangelical fervour by our government. Our masters both at national level and within the European Union must be able to see the folly of this policy but the momentum seems unstoppable. 

Without doubt, as a nation and individually we are extremely wasteful of energy and I suspect the EU policy is a long term one of weaning us off the need for the energy we use. sadly it is being foisted on us at a time when we are also being battered with extra punative taxes due to the recession which in turn is due to .............. (Fill in your own blank. Here are a few helpful suggestions: Bankers, Labour Government, Conservative Government, The EU, Capitalism, Communism, The Catholic Church, Gay Marriage, Lack of overnight parking for motorhomes, feckless parents.)
We are doomed I tell you!


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## GRWXJR (Feb 26, 2013)

Just think.... if Maggie and the subsequent bang-wagon of leeches (sorry, politicians) hadn't flogged off the power infrastructure network for a microscopic fraction of its replacement value then....

1. The power co's wouldn't be hiking prices to pay the shareholder
2. What we did pay for energy would have been put back into the infrastructure (so even if we paid more, at least (with good management) it'd have been raising the bucks for the maintenance and upgrade of the network, rather than the maintenance and upgrade of the already outrageously wealthy at our expense.
3.  Chances are we wouldn't be needing to put ourselves even further at the mercy of large foreign companies by getting them to build and run our power stations so they can make even more money off the taxpayer and charge us a fortune for our energy.

So once again, the huge co's that have no care for any social responsibility (that's a laugh - our Governments are supposed to look after this aspect, and look what they have done to us - sold everything and made us subservient to the demands and whims of Mr Global-Corp) have even greater control over our destiny.

Sometimes I wish I was a lot more stupid than I am already - at least then I'd be ignorant of the fact that I'm being sold down the river and royally shafted, and my future is looking grim and 'poverty' is a word I can expect to have applied to it.  As I do not have plenty of money and pensions, then I am trapped and cannot escape whatever is going to happen (and it won't be good).


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## GRWXJR (Feb 26, 2013)

Just to cheer you up further about your escalating power bills......

After wages, the water co's biggest outgoing is power (its not something we tend to relate to Water, but of course all the pumps and equipment that get you your water run off electricity, so the water co's use a LOT of the stuff).

So - if we are going to get fleeced on energy for the foreseeable, then your water rates are going to have to climb as well.

I'm starting to wish I'd bought a cottage with its own fresh-water spring, built on the side of a steep hill next to a steep, fast running water course with a decent amount of wind (south-facing of course).  its starting to look like renewables (always such an expensive alternative to grid power) might actually start to look like the economical future option for cost-effectiveness and reliability (if you have the geographical situation to exploit them).

But I didn't.  Hindsight is absolutely bloody useless, isn't it!


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## sp2 boy (Feb 26, 2013)

GRWXJR said:


> I'm starting to wish I'd bought a cottage with its own fresh-water spring, built on the side of a steep hill next to a steep, fast running water course with a decent amount of wind (south-facing of course).  its starting to look like renewables (always such an expensive alternative to grid power) might actually start to look like the economical future option for cost-effectiveness and reliability (if you have the geographical situation to exploit them).
> 
> But I didn't.  Hindsight is absolutely bloody useless, isn't it!



...not totally useless! 

Being in Wales already I thought that it should be easy for you to find steep terrain with plenty of fast running water and wind on your doorstep. 

It's the poor sods who live in high rise flats and 'built up' towns/cities who are really screwed!


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## GRWXJR (Feb 26, 2013)

sp2 boy:

Yes, its relatively easy to FIND such places (esp. compared to living in a Hi-Rise, though Wales does have some built-up bits too y'know!) but being able to AFFORD such a place is a whole different kettle of halibut!

Back when I was a kid in the 1970's then places like that, and bigger houses were being practically given away - not any more.  In fact, the nicer parts of Wales have property that is disproportionately expensive when compared to the average wage.  This is due to the fact that its a popular retirement destination or relocation - the low crime rate and better value for money in property is great if you're selling a place elsewhere and have the money, but not so good if you live and work here.

If you're selling up in SE England, retiring and buying then you get more for your money, and a nicer place to live - you can see the attraction.  You're not looking for employment, and the move improves your lifestyle and might even release some cash as well - you can't blame people for thinking 'I'll have some of that'.  But it does mean my chances of affording a place like that are about nil.

It does raise an interesting question about the local economy though - what happens to areas like Pembrokeshire, who must depend quite heavily on the retirement dollar, when the generations that HAVE those retirement funds peter out?  Once the post-war generations fade away, then the amount of retirees with disposable income  will reduce - so whats going to support local economies that have come to be dependent on them as an income stream?  Could we see areas that are currently quite affluent suffering terminal decline as there'll be no industry and jobs there, and no money to support the local businesses established to service the comfortably-off retired?

Overall, you have to say that its very hard to think of any kind of positive future for the UK - deep decline seems to be inevitable, and in my lifetime.  Time for another Lotto ticket then 'it could be you'.


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## sp2 boy (Feb 27, 2013)

GRWXJR said:


> If you're selling up in SE England, retiring and buying then you get more for your money, and a nicer place to live - you can see the attraction.  You're not looking for employment, and the move improves your lifestyle and might even release some cash as well - you can't blame people for thinking 'I'll have some of that'.  But it does mean my chances of affording a place like that are about nil.
> 
> It does raise an interesting question about the local economy though - what happens to areas like Pembrokeshire, who must depend quite heavily on the retirement dollar, when the generations that HAVE those retirement funds peter out?  Once the post-war generations fade away, then the amount of retirees with disposable income  will reduce - so whats going to support local economies that have come to be dependent on them as an income stream?  Could we see areas that are currently quite affluent suffering terminal decline as there'll be no industry and jobs there, and no money to support the local businesses established to service the comfortably-off retired?
> 
> Overall, you have to say that its very hard to think of any kind of positive future for the UK - deep decline seems to be inevitable, and in my lifetime.  Time for another Lotto ticket then 'it could be you'.



With regards to the affluent 'old codgers' passing away, I agree with you that the next generation of retirees will have less disposable income. 

I have a feeling that these places, hamlets/villages, will probably see a decline in local businesses, as you mentioned, when that happens and with nobody being able to afford to buy in the area it will be a downward spiral until it is 'run-down'. Once this happens and the property prices have bottomed in that area, the properties will hopefully become cheap enough so that the average local person can afford to move there again and bring new life to the area.

Sadly my feeling is that this sort of thing could take a decade to swing round from reaching the absolute bottom. As I have said on other threads, I fear that the general population in the UK will have a lot more pain and suffering to go through prior to everybody coming out at the other end. The State cannot continue to financially support the population as revenues drop due to lack of proper growth, ie manufacturing, placing an even bigger burden of taxation on an ever decreasing solvent population. Stomachs will become 'pressed-up' against our spines!


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## Yogihughes (Feb 27, 2013)

"The State cannot continue to financially support the population"

Not as long as the State continues to ignore the future problems that will prevail by NOT having a commonsense approach to IMMIGRATION.

Is it just me that can see problems ahead by lifting restrictions at the end of the year on Bulgarians and others.

As those in charge made a huge mistake in estimating the number of immigrants rushing into the country over the last few years why should we believe them now that they say we can handle the numbers intending to travel to the UK.

I understand that we need a certain amount of immigrants BUT to immediately offer them ALL benefits and more when they have NOT contributed to the wealth of the country is beyond my comprehension.

I had a conversation yesterday with a guy (in his 40s I'd say) who has recently had some bad luck losing his job and also had some domestic trouble. Upshot is, he is now living in a "Model"  (homeless person's hostel) in Glasgow. He has had no money for the last 5 weeks and although he receives his meals free at the moment, he will have to pay for them when he eventually receives his JSA. He told me, and here I must confess that I do not know if his words are true or not, that should he be lucky enough to find employment then his rent for living in this homeless hostel will increase to approx £150 per week.

He also stated that benefit advisors told him that as he was not drug dependent nor an alcoholic nor suffering from mental health problems then they could do little for him. IF he had been an immigrant and NOT a locally born citizen (again his words not mine) then things would be different " but tell anyone I told you that ".

The DWP offices would NOT entertain him until he had an e-mail address and as he has no local access to the internet he has to travel to the nearest library to fill out application forms etc.

As I have said I have been lucky enough (by working hard) not to have been out of work since the age of 15, now 64 and have been retired for 7 years so have little knowledge of being unemployed BUT surely we cannot go on increasing our population by uncontrolled immigration from Europe and putting further strain on our resources. Here I mean the National health Service and the Welfare State.

Sorry to have been long-winded, and I know I will receive quite a few brick-bats for posting these remarks but hey ho it is only how I see things based on my recent experiences and taking stock of what is happening around me at the moment.


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## GRWXJR (Feb 27, 2013)

New Rover

I don't see why anyone would complain about what you've written - its just plain common sense (unless you're a politician, who seem to be just visiting this planet - they must be as they sure as hell don't seem to understand anything about it).

The analogy I used recently is that of the UK as a Lifeboat - it'll sustain a certain amount, but overload it and it'll sink and take everyone down with it.  
Right now the Uk is being swamped, and our 'leaders' seem determined to put us under with a greater burden.
It may be harsh, but you have to batten down the hatches and leave people outside in order to save those already on board.

What you (and I) am saying is not racist, elitist or anything else 'ist'.  Its just how it is.

Borders need to be closed, anyone not a resident needs to be found and deported, and any asylum seekers with  criminal convictions in the UK should be automatically and immediately deported.  Any immigrants unable to prove they have employment should not be permitted entry, and benefits should be unavailable to any immigrants until a suitable timeframe and contribution to the UK has been made.

This is just basic common sense and is essential - we don't have the luxury of being able to afford any other stance IMO.  if we were loaded then being charitable is great and good - but we are a nation in deep financial schtuk and crisis.  Why can't Politicians see this and actually act for the good of the electorate instead of taking us careering down the path to destruction?


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## sp2 boy (Feb 27, 2013)

I am looking at migrating to another European country soon, Portugal on a permanent basis. 

My understanding is that for me to actually become a resident there I need to register my intent to stay by the third month and will only be given residence status if I can show that either I have, a job to go to, private medical insurance or will be paying a monthly social security payment of 230Euros per month with a means to support myself. 

Does anybody know if the UK does the same to immigrants from within the EU?

*New Rover*, there are elements of what the homeless man said were true, namely that if you are homeless it is easier to get a hostel if you have some sort of addiction that would benefit from treatment. With regards to the costing being £150 per week perhaps this is what the shelter charge the DWP/Government and it contains an element of counselling/warden care, I am not sure.

*GRWXJR* I believe that I only have entititlement to benefits in Portugal after a time-frame following payments into the social security pot, which I believe is fair enough.


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## John H (Feb 27, 2013)

sp2 boy said:


> I am looking at migrating to another European country soon, Portugal on a permanent basis.
> 
> My understanding is that for me to actually become a resident there I need to register my intent to stay by the third month and will only be given residence status if I can show that either I have, a job to go to, private medical insurance or will be paying a monthly social security payment of 230Euros per month with a means to support myself.
> 
> Does anybody know if the UK does the same to immigrants from within the EU?



If you look at the UK Border Agency website:
UK Border Agency | Rights and responsibilities
you will find that similar rules apply to EU citizens wanting to live in the UK (although, interestingly, it does not precisely define what it means by a "burden on the state"!).


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## sp2 boy (Feb 27, 2013)

John H said:


> If you look at the UK Border Agency website:
> UK Border Agency | Rights and responsibilities
> you will find that similar rules apply to EU citizens wanting to live in the UK (although, interestingly, it does not precisely define what it means by a "burden on the state"!).



I have read through the Border Agency site and I must say that it does appear more lax then some other European nations. As I said in Portugal if you are there for longer than three months in one stint you must apply for a 'residency certificate' and if your are there for more than 183 days there are taxation implications. There does not appear to be the requirement to get a residence certificate in the UK and hence the reason why the Border Agency have no idea of who or how many are in the country...It is a shambles here.

With regards to 'Johnny foreigner' taking the 'P' in the UK by not following the rules, you can see by this link to an 'expat site' which shows UK expats also not following the rules when they are living abroad!   Staying at least 1 year in Portugal? : British Expat Discussion Forum


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## ivecotrucker (Feb 27, 2013)

Hi sp2 boy. During Mrs Thatcher's 'improvements' to our economy I was an economic migrant to, of all places, Greece. I quickly got on well with the locals, including the police & the plain clothes state security people (*), non of whom seemed bothered about my prescence even though I was allegedly out there on a renewable yearly contract which they would have known about. Ironically the Anglo-Greek outfit I was working for was closed down for tax avoidance so it was back to job hunting in the UK.

We used to regularly spend more than three months a time in Italy and hopefully we will again in the future. I was aware of the 3 months thing because we had previously met several UK expats (apparently harmless OAPs) who had to continually report to the local cop shop even after some years of residence. We've sometimes been static for more than 3 months in one place, fruit picking for friends, & the local Carabinieri knew damn well where we parked up because they used to drive past every few days to check out a local drug user/?dealer's house but they always ignored us. Local friends told us that 'of course they knew who we were' but they weren't bothered.

I'm not saying it totally depends on who you are & how well you mix in locally but it sure seems to help.

(*) this isn't the place for the full story but when the sh*t hit the fan I was told that I was the only one not imprisoned & questioned because the local state security , unbeknown to me, knew the locals respected my attitude & behaviour. Outside the UK you never know who might be watching you & taking notes.


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## John H (Feb 28, 2013)

sp2 boy said:


> I have read through the Border Agency site and I must say that it does appear more lax then some other European nations. As I said in Portugal if you are there for longer than three months in one stint you must apply for a 'residency certificate' and if your are there for more than 183 days there are taxation implications. There does not appear to be the requirement to get a residence certificate in the UK and hence the reason why the Border Agency have no idea of who or how many are in the country...It is a shambles here.
> 
> With regards to 'Johnny foreigner' taking the 'P' in the UK by not following the rules, you can see by this link to an 'expat site' which shows UK expats also not following the rules when they are living abroad!   Staying at least 1 year in Portugal? : British Expat Discussion Forum



It is certainly true that the likes of Spain and Portugal appear on paper to be more precise but to a large extent this is window-dressing, as I think you may have discovered from your researches about ex-pats. Most people who overwinter down here are here for a lot more than 3 months but very few register. In fact, I have known two who have tied to play it by the book and they were both told to politely get lost! As for the 6 months and tax thing, well............................

For the purposes of accuracy, I, of course, am never in the country for more than 3 months :rolleyes2:


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