# What is the penalty for ignoring councill (no overnight sleeping signs). scarborough



## iceman (Jul 26, 2013)

What exactly is the likely penalty of ignoring no overnight sleeping signs when a penalty or consequence is not stated ??? Scarborough councill put up no overnight sleeping signs last year on the marine drive to deter mobile homes and it did just that.Exactly why they did this is anyones guess as the sea front is well covered with parking meters and most people would be happy to pay say £5 and the councill could have profited. Prior to this nasty decision up to 25 vans stayed the night and spent £ in local businesses. Now just a few stay in car parks without notices and others move on.Fact is, they did no harm and offended nobody local except i guess camp site owners who mistakenly think we will all go and stay with them (note, the councill owns the biggest and nearest) WHY cant Scarborough councill lead the way and note the FRENCH attitude to motorhomes and the economic benefits by encouraging us where we cause NO HARM. i note they also have no dog signs on the beeches but locals seem to ignore them. Same goes for no fires or cooking but lots of people have barbeques undisturbed. So considering those misdemeaners maybe we wild motorhomers may be ignored ??.


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## vwalan (Jul 26, 2013)

best not go there . bit like whitby .or cornwall .tourists arent wanted . mind spain doesnt want you either .


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## Firefox (Jul 26, 2013)

Don't go to Scarborough.

There's no penalty for overnight sleeping - I mean how can they prove anything? It's totally unenforceable.

There is a fixed penalty for overnight parking where properly backed up by stated hours on plates, type of vehicle, lines defining areas and accompanying TRO. They don't need to state the penalty but it will be around £60 or £30 if paid in 14 days.


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## voyagerstan (Jul 26, 2013)

why would anybody want to go to scarboura .   stan


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## landyrubbertramp (Jul 26, 2013)

I don't think it's about weather ppl would like to go to x or y place fit me it's the principle . We r not North Korea just yet . We should be able to move Greeley within reason . As I have said I think alot of theses restrictions ESP on roads are designed for systematic abuse of parking if u turn up on ur own I relay carnt see how you would get a ticket I think it's works for them more on fear . And I wonder what the glut rate is . Ie if you parked in areas ur told not to . Out of 100 tines how many tunes would u get a ticket compared to the cost of a cl site etc I bet even if u get a ticket every 30 nights it still makes money sense to park and take a penalty notice never mind if u challenge the ticket


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## QFour (Jul 26, 2013)

vwalan said:


> best not go there . bit like whitby .or cornwall .tourists arent wanted . mind spain doesnt want you either .



So we are not going to Whitby, Cornwall or Spain so where else can we go :banana: :banana: :banana: :king:

There must be thousands of other places that do want our hard earned cash. Who are happy to let us park for a night. A pub that suggests you use the Community Centre Car Park as he knows them and it will be Ok. The invite to park where we had asked and been refused. There are thousands of places so lets just use them and leave the others to wonder why they are loosing out.



..


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## vwalan (Jul 26, 2013)

there are two ways of looking at it . i have fought the tickets . and won . have fought over signs and won . but sometimes think just dont go dont then spend any money there . spend it somewhere else . another town or village . only you can make that decision . mind it helps if perhaps you write in to local papers etc saying you wont be going back and will encourage lots of others to boycott  anything to do with the area . 
do the papers and the council officers . that way they know you are doing it . writing on forums they dont know . if they dont get complaints they will think they are doing it right . hitting them in the pocket is the way forward for sure .


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## vwalan (Jul 26, 2013)

i must have been writing the above as you wrote your question . i live in cornwall . do chase the county council . have gone to local council meetings have voiced my opinion . also have written in and won on the parking etc . 
but also believe the other option works as well.i have stopped visiting lots places that dont seem to like m,homes . in fact i have saved more myself as very often they were tourist areas and things cost more . very often you just find a village down the road thats ok . spend there . 
as it is i havent been to scarbourgh or whitby since a kid . have recently thought of doing that coast . but shant stop were i,m not wanted .


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## QFour (Jul 27, 2013)

We wrote to Cornwall Council and said we would not be back but did not get a reply .. So we won't bother again .... :drive:


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## Beemer (Jul 27, 2013)

User1 said:


> So we are not going to Whitby, Cornwall or Spain so where else can we go :banana: :banana: :banana: :king:
> 
> 
> ..



France love you plenty! :banana:


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## Gillyflower60 (Jul 27, 2013)

I only sleep in the day :lol-053:


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## hanger18 (Jul 27, 2013)

Please feel free to shoot me down in flames, but isn’t this website called wild camping. Why is there thread after thread about various councils effectively banning campervans. I have been lurking around this web site for some time. Even became a full member 2 years ago but left earlier this year due to the bitching that was creeping in. I have wild camped all my life. I don’t like crowds. So a Wild camping website appealed to me. I could understand the odd thread mocking the poor motor home owner who wants to park with the other sheepal. But thread after thread complaining about it. Please explain……. 
Don’t get me wrong this is not a complaint im just curious…  :wave:

  Dave


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## sparrks (Jul 27, 2013)

hanger18 said:


> Please feel free to shoot me down in flames, but isn’t this website called wild camping. Why is there thread after thread about various councils effectively banning campervans. I have been lurking around this web site for some time. Even became a full member 2 years ago but left earlier this year due to the bitching that was creeping in. I have wild camped all my life. I don’t like crowds. So a Wild camping website appealed to me. I could understand the odd thread mocking the poor motor home owner who wants to park with the other sheepal. But thread after thread complaining about it. Please explain…….
> Don’t get me wrong this is not a complaint im just curious…  :wave:
> 
> Dave



The more people who camp in car parks the better as it leaves the wild places vacant.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jul 27, 2013)

The parking order is here http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/pdf/NOM_Off_amendment_2012.[1].pdf

The Order shall come into operation on 1 January 2013 and will amend, the provisions of The Borough of Scarborough
(Off-Street Parking Places) Order 2012

This is the only council I have come across in the hundreds I have contacted regarding Motorhome Parking, who uses the correct definition of a Motor Caravan.

Motorhome Parking is permitted in the Scarborough Borough Council area:
This is the information on the councils website  Coach Parking | Scarborough Borough Council

*Scarborough*

The following car parks have suitable coach parking spaces: - Motorhomes are allowed to use these parking spaces 

William Street
Scalby Mills
Burniston Road
Weaponess Valley Road

*Filey*

The following car parks have suitable coach parking spaces: - Motorhomes are allowed to use these parking spaces 

West Avenue
Country Park  - Prohibition of waiting of motor caravans between 11pm and 7am

*Whitby*

The following car parks have suitable coach parking spaces: - Motorhomes are allowed to use these parking spaces 

Abbey Headland
West Cliff.  Prohibition of waiting of motor caravans between 11pm and 7am

*Staithes and Robin Hoods Bay*

The following car parks have suitable coach parking spaces: - Motorhomes are allowed to use these parking spaces 

Bank Top Staithes
Station Robin Hoods Bay


Most of the other car parks in the borough have a weight limit of 1500kg.

Charges
All pay and display charges for coaches are £10.00 for 24 hours on all car parks borough wide.  This charge applies to Motorhomes that use the coach parking bays.  All coach pay and display tickets are transferable between coach parking in any of the Council's off street car parks in the borough with coach parking facilities.

There is a ban on sleeping or overnight camping in all council owned car parks in the borough.


Most of the other car parks in the borough have a weight limit of 1500kg.

If motorhomes park in these bays and coaches can not then the operators will either take their business elsewhere or complain to the council.  40 to 50 people per vehicle will make a greater impression on the council, than one or two in a motorhome not visiting.  I speak here as a former coach operator.


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## maureenandtom (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi hangar 18,

I see your point of view.   Even very wild campers will need somewhere eventually – even just to empty the loo, maybe, or get fresh water.   

Some people, I'm one of them, want to see the Aires system spread throughout the UK.   Every council cracking down on the parking of campervans is detrimental to that ambition.  Or they, maybe, provide an opportunity;  here's a council ripe for conversion if we can identify the problem with campervans and solve it - set up an Aire. 

Out of interest, when you go continental touring do you use or avoid Aires?


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## vwalan (Jul 27, 2013)

well we could say there isnt much wild camping in uk at all or france . i,m lucky i go to africa .theres a bit of wild camping there . in fact camping could be said to be only tents .
but away from that idea . lets not worry about the wild bit or the camping  . i park in towns as well .have all my life as well. it does seem that places we used to use years ago have gone . it used to be ok to park on the wall at newquay central beach .or up by the sailors arms in newquay . about 30 yr ago . then it became so popular you could have twenty campers there all weekend . also fistral .we went there surfing for the weekend . might be 4 vans . then it turned to 40. now where you park in newquay god only knows . 
as a child i remember touring france and spain etc with my parents if you saw more than a handfull of uk vans in a winter you was suprized . 
in morocco . might be twenty vans at taghazoute all winter .could be 4 thousand these days . 
its all changing . if the locals dont want a steady stream of campers filling the seafronts we have to find new places . even dvla have cottoned on to stealth vans . 
i think its because there really is alot more money available these days theres more campers on the road for longer times . there is no crisis with money . folk have more now than ever they just dont know it . move away from the awkward places park in a nice place where you wont get moved far better .


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## Deleted member 967 (Jul 27, 2013)

iceman said:


> What exactly is the likely penalty of ignoring no overnight sleeping signs when a penalty or consequence is not stated ??? Scarborough councill put up no overnight sleeping signs last year on the marine drive to deter mobile homes and it did just that.Exactly why they did this is anyones guess as the sea front is well covered with parking meters and most people would be happy to pay say £5 and the councill could have profited. Prior to this nasty decision up to 25 vans stayed the night and spent £ in local businesses. Now just a few stay in car parks without notices and others move on.Fact is, they did no harm and offended nobody local except i guess camp site owners who mistakenly think we will all go and stay with them (note, the councill owns the biggest and nearest) WHY cant Scarborough councill lead the way and note the FRENCH attitude to motorhomes and the economic benefits by encouraging us where we cause NO HARM. i note they also have no dog signs on the beeches but locals seem to ignore them. Same goes for no fires or cooking but lots of people have barbeques undisturbed. So considering those misdemeaners maybe we wild motorhomers may be ignored ??.



Each Council has its own Traffic Regulation Orders.  In these are specified the charges made if they are breached.  Most but not all parking is now a civil matter and not criminal.  As such it is enforced by the local authority not the Police.

A lot of councils have restrictions on car parking such as weight or dimensional limits.  Some are relaxed about size allowing overhang into another bay (some charge extra some don't).  Some authorities are strict on overweight vehicles (1500kg max is common) and see Motor Caravans as easy targets but ignore heavier 4x4 vehicles parked near them.

If you choose to ignore a sign, you have two options, Pay up if you get a Penalty Charge Notice,  or challenge it.  It is not a fine and there are no penalty points.
To challenge it you need to get a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO).  In contacting councils regarding Motorhome Parking I have come across a lot of councils that cannot produce the order when asked so the charge would be thrown out of court on this technicality alone.

Look up councils policy on Gypsy and Traveller issues and it is quite interesting reading.  In one I read travellers are allowed to stop for a night or a weekend and are provided with bin bags free of charge.  If they wish to stay longer they are offered space on the traveller site, for up to 10 days free of charge, if it is available.

This is in contrast with council telling us that waste bins are not for our use.  Has anyone tried negotiating a stay length when asked to move on?


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## Greytop (Jul 27, 2013)

*Is it Enforced.*

This is a very interesting point and I am sure the signs in Scarborough are legal (I live there and there have been great discussions in the press regarding the ban) however are they enforced? I believe not. Can you really expect a council jobsworth knocking on your Motorhome door at 12 o' clock at night!!! It is unusual for council workers to work after 2pm in my opinion. It is not a police matter and they certainly won't be interested.

I think the Brits are a law abiding lot in general and tend to obey signs, which has it's merits but in my opinion it is not always wise, because we end up becoming like docile sheep. Sleep walking into a dictatorial state, blindly going along with whatever is thrown at us.

I must confess to having slept in many car parks with similar signs, without any problems at all. The last one was in Lyme Regis where there were also two foreign Motorhomes (One German who was amazed how anti the English councils were concerning Motorhomes). The police patrolled the car park twice once late at night and once early morning, and gave us a cheery wave.

I would be interested to know if any one has in fact been issued with a fine regarding this matter.


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## vwalan (Jul 27, 2013)

here in cornwall newquay started years ago with night watchmen coming round every hour knocking on your door and waking you up . asking you to move . in the end it just got so silly you move . think places like scarbourgh are only just getting what newquay got years ago. there is no doubt most of the residents hate campers . just see us as free loading . and lets be honest we are . we can say we spend in the town but not as much as the tourist that comes for two weeks with a wallet full of cash to spend . thats the key to spend . 
i think we try to spend less so we can go somewhere else tomorrow and the week after etc .


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## wildman (Jul 27, 2013)

the biggest penalty is giving all motorhomers a bad name and encouraging a total ban on motorhomes. so I hope you don't do it.


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## John H (Jul 27, 2013)

User1 said:


> So we are not going to Whitby, Cornwall or Spain so where else can we go :banana: :banana: :banana: :king:
> 
> ..



I think you'll find that the bit about Spain was tongue-in-cheek (Alan spends a lot of time wilding there and doesn't want the place to fill up!


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## Greytop (Jul 27, 2013)

Well if someone from the Scarborough Borough Council Knocks on your door and asks you to go, you have at least two choices.

1) Tell them you are a Traveller and insist that the council follows through on their published policy in dealing with Travellers.
2) Tell them you are NOT a Traveller, and serve notice to the council you will take action because the council are discriminating against non Travellers.

Gypsy and traveller sites | Scarborough Borough Council


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## Tco (Jul 28, 2013)

I suspect it is the hoteliers that are behind all of these restrictions. They labour under the misapprehension that if people can't visit in their Motorhomes, they will stay in the vacant hotels.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jul 28, 2013)

i wonder if we could put a foi freedom of information in to scarbrough council asking them how many fines have been given out and now mnay are to m homes as it  may be able to be filtered out on thier stats


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## vwalan (Jul 28, 2013)

you can ask .must state freedom of information . they have to tell you . if you really want to know .


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## Deleted member 967 (Jul 28, 2013)

Tco said:


> I suspect it is the hoteliers that are behind all of these restrictions. They labour under the misapprehension that if people can't visit in their Motorhomes, they will stay in the vacant hotels.



Why would they when the accommodation they have with them is often superior to that of many Hotels and Bed and Breakfast establishments.   Things change we have moved on from the 1950s


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## Deleted member 967 (Jul 28, 2013)

vwalan said:


> you can ask .must state freedom of information . they have to tell you . if you really want to know .



Its a bit early yet.  Accounting year is to April to End of March so they will only have figures up to April this year.


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## Stanski (Jul 28, 2013)

John Thompson
If motorhomes park in these bays and coaches can not then the operators will either take their business elsewhere or complain to the council.  40 to 50 people per vehicle will make a greater impression on the council said:
			
		

> As an ex operator also I concur with thee.  There is a need to manage the opportunity for both types of vehicle to use the facilities adequately for all the day I would suggest.
> 
> For me the "No overnight sleeping" issue needs to be tackled.


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## Burtie (Jul 28, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> i wonder if we could put a foi freedom of information in to scarbrough council asking them how many fines have been given out and now mnay are to m homes as it  may be able to be filtered out on thier stats



I personally think that none of us will get anywhere with Scarborough council when emailing them yes you will get a reply off them but not a straight answer to your questions if it comes down to the fact that the residents are complaining the council won't tell you that. as I've sent many of emails to them surely I can't see why there should be a problem parking up on marine drive and royal Albert drive as the hotels on the top still get a good view of the sea and its only usually used as a race track at night for boy racers


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## vwalan (Jul 28, 2013)

if you ask under the freedom of information act they will answer and give correct figures if you doubt it report them . believe me it works .


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## vwalan (Jul 28, 2013)

all i can say is heres the pics of mine in riverside parking in stratford .i was in the car and caravan parking  yet there letter says i should be in the coach park . why .coaches need the parking the car and caravan park is almost empty . they then say i take two car spaces .
 of course a caravan and car wouldnt . remember you are talking council thicko,s and a little bit of authority.


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## runnach (Jul 28, 2013)

Burtie said:


> I personally think that none of us will get anywhere with Scarborough council when emailing them yes you will get a reply off them but not a straight answer to your questions if it comes down to the fact that the residents are complaining the council won't tell you that. as I've sent many of emails to them surely I can't see why there should be a problem parking up on marine drive and royal Albert drive as the hotels on the top still get a good view of the sea and its only usually used as a race track at night for boy racers


Royal Albert Drive I can buy into preventing parking but not Marine drive.

Scarborough Council are numpties when I asked questions then revealed my official address was in the borough dialogue ceased.

It seems they are hell bent on a policy possibly generated from a mix of toad tails and puppies to ignore any dialogue re motorhomes.

Whether right or wrong they are standing their ground and overall they look pathetic.

A reasoned suggestion that the businesses of Scarborough had a short season to earn their corn, motorhomers in the main were affluent with a high disposible income fell on the deafest of ears they dont want to know.

Everytime I go to see my parents, always in the back of my mind I am not welcome, 

Channa


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## Smaug (Jul 28, 2013)

OK, I give up, what are "toad tails & puppies" please?


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## runnach (Jul 28, 2013)

Smaug said:


> OK, I give up, what are "toad tails & puppies" please?



Little girls are made from all thing nice, sugar and spice.

Little boys toads and puppy dogs tails something like that a rather disturbing nursery rhyme recited by my mother.

My point was Scarborough might as well invent their policies on nursery ryhmes ( I think they do ) for a distinct lack of logic in their decisions..

I hope that clears it up..


Whos up for skip to the loo my darling ? 

Channa


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## Burtie (Jul 29, 2013)

Yes that's right they certainly have some quark with motorhomers and no matter which councillor or any body on Scarborough council wether it be man or woman you will get the same email they must pass the email around a lot up there before giving you an answer


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