# Is Planning Permission required?



## Channelcrosser (Mar 6, 2012)

Hi everyone,

we have a plot of land in a nearby town which we recently had planning permission for a 2 bed bungalow. For one reason or another the permission lapsed. (Mnoey and circumstances)

We would like to park our motor home on the plot whilst we prepare our house for rental in readiness for our first extended trip away.

Does anyone know if you have to apply for any sort of planning permission? Local council website/email reply not helpful at all.

The plot is currently unused and I suppose would be called a vegetable plot or just a plot of land. It was originally part of my grandfathers garden but that house has since been sold, demolished and a new house put on it.

Thanks to anyone that might have any knowledge

Channelcrosser


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## Northerner (Mar 6, 2012)

Why wasn't the council's email of any use? If it were me I would insist on talking to a planning official and getting a straight answer from the horse's mouth.

This is a bit of a legal minefield in that it isn't a dwelling plot, as permission has lapsed, and I'm really not sure of the permissions required to park on what is, as you say, almost the equivalent of an allotment. There may even be covenants on the land forbidding caravans, and you 'van will be considered one.

What is certain is that you can't live in it but, from your post, it does seem that you've no intention of actually sleeping in it. If you can't get a definitive answer from the planners then a lawyer who specialises in planning law may be your best bet but only you can decide if the cost is worth it.

Finally, are you happy with the security risks involved in leaving it on an unattended plot of land?

Edited to say: I've just reread your post and it is unclear whether you do intend living in it. If you do I think you'll have real problems but, consider it from the point of view of the neighbours. If there was a plot of land next to you and some travellers came and set up camp in a caravan or mobile home, would you be happy? That's why we have planning laws and I do think that you would have great difficulty in getting permission to live on the plot.


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## shortcircuit (Mar 6, 2012)

Unlike the previoius post I would just do it and keep planners out of the way.

Up in Scotland so planning may be different.  In the past I have built houses and on each occassion I moved a static caravan on to the site and lived in it.  I once asked planing officer if I should seek approval and he did not want to no as it would create so many problems and he preferred to turn a blind eye.

How long do you intend to park on your land and  is it likely somebody will complain to local council as I would doubt if they will be scouring the countryside for this type of demeanour?  If they are not happy then they would need to take legal action to get you off and you could procrastinate until it suits you.  I would just do it and if they come along tell them what you are doing and let common sense prevail.

If you are concerned about legal action tell them your applying for the site to be a CL or CS which would again cause delay or even better your opening an aires????//


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## Channelcrosser (Mar 6, 2012)

Thanks guys for your input - very interesting and very different. Actually yes it is our intention to live in the motorhome until we leave about the end of September so a period of say 3 months.

Access to the plot requires us to drive onto a shared driveway from the highway so we are not as such creating another access to the road. We have written to the 3 neighbours who own the drive and they are quite happy for us to use the driveway.

Northerner you seem pretty adamant that you cannot live in the motorhome - I am surprised by that comment - is it any different to any other wildcamping that we do elsewhere? Are you saying that we can't live in our motorhome whilst it is parked on say our driveway outside our house?

The plot of land is owned by us, we have the necessary access and there is already a brick built shed there.

I do prefer the option of just doing it and see what comes............we're only going to be there a few months and if we have to move on then so be it.

Could be a way forward for all of us...........

Channelcrosser


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## Channelcrosser (Mar 6, 2012)

Hi Northerner

for interest this is the response from the council:-

There is a useful website - Planning Portal - The UK Government's online planning and building regulations resource which has a link to an Interactive House – this provides comprehensive information on permitted development rights – i.e. if you can keep within the specific terms and conditions you do not need to apply for planning permission.

 If this does not answer your queries, please call the planning office on 853278/853527 during the hours of 8.30am – 10.30 am (9.30 am – 10.30 am Wednesdays) and between 4 pm and 5 pm Monday to Friday .   

 The Council’s Development Control Section does not respond to requests seeking an informal written response as to whether or not a planning application is needed. 

 If you need formal confirmation on whether your proposal is permitted development, you will need to submit an application for a Lawful Development Certificate.  This will require the payment of a fee and the forms can be downloaded from our website Home - Shepway District Council. 

In hindsight I suppose we could go for a Lawful Development Certificate which would clarify the matter.

Maybe go that way ?

Channelcrosser


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## n brown (Mar 6, 2012)

i tend to think if you ask,and its an unusual circumstance,then they can't do wrong by saying no and leave you to sort out the legalities to appeal.whereas if you don't ask,and i didn't in a similar case,you might get away with it for years,as i did


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## kangooroo (Mar 6, 2012)

It's always a tricky issue and my guess is that Planning Permission would be required and possibly refused.  Also, if you draw attention to what you're planning and you're advised against it, which I think you probably would be, you're then in a sticky position - so I would keep quiet.

I would check the deeds for any restrictive covenants just so you know where you stand on this issue, but also check who would actually be in a position to enforce them and whether they would have the funds and resources to do so.

A local person has faced a similar issue regarding 'temporary accommodation' for his daughter.  The council has agreed that the MH can remain in the driveway for occasional accommodation for a limited time, but she is not allowed to cook in it and she must eat meals in her parents' home and spot checks are made at random times to confirm this.

Personally, if the land is out of sight and you're not upsetting any neighbours, I would probably just go ahead and live in it.  By the time you've been spotted and the Council has gone through the procedure to take enforcement action, you'll have moved on anyway!


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## Northerner (Mar 6, 2012)

Channelcrosser said:


> Thanks guys for your input - very interesting and very different. Actually yes it is our intention to live in the motorhome until we leave about the end of September so a period of say 3 months.
> 
> Access to the plot requires us to drive onto a shared driveway from the highway so we are not as such creating another access to the road. We have written to the 3 neighbours who own the drive and they are quite happy for us to use the driveway.
> 
> ...



You've completely misinterpreted my post. When I mentioned that you couldn't live in it I was talking about the legal implications, not the practical considerations of living in a motorhome, which you can obviously do as many people live in them full time.

Some of the responses surprise me. What if the boot was on the other foot and someone parked illegally on a plot next to you? Going ahead and doing it without any legal authority is exactly what travellers do occasionally and do you support their behaviour? Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned but I believe that we all have a responsibility to abide by the rule of law, and just because a bunch of Irish tinkers break the law, doesn't make it right for others to do the same.

In your case I do accept that you appear to be behaving responsibly by asking the neighbours and contacting the council but I still think that you should do it by the book.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 6, 2012)

The council has already given Planning Permission for the site for residential use, as you say it had expired.  Contact them with a specific question about renewing the permission again.
You have sorted out with the neighbours so you should have no objections from them.  
You need to specify that you wish to live in a caravan for a while while development takes place.  

With PP the site has a much higher value than amenity land.   If you then wanted to sell.  

You do not need PP for a CL the club issuing the exemption has the authoriry to issue a certificate.  Normally it would ask the planners if they had any objection on the grounds of access or amenity.  You seem to have taken care of both these matters by doing the consultation with your neighbours already.  Have you water and drainage on site?

PM me if you want anymore info re CLs  There are about 15 clubs that have the ability to issue exemption certificates.  You are not restricted to the Big two.

John


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## BrianG (Mar 6, 2012)

I really can't see what the fuss is all about. The land is yours, the access is sorted, the immediate neighbours seem happy. You are planning to go off and do your own thing shortly. Just move off the field occassionally, have a few weekends away so that you are not PERMANENT. What can possibly go wrong? Or for that matter be any different to what we all do all the time.
                           Enjoy life and stop worrying about nothing!!
                                                                         Good luck with the extended holiday when you do get away.
                                                                                               Brian


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## Firefox (Mar 6, 2012)

Technically I think you do need planning permission.

But, 

1. The council are likely not going to do anything unless they get a an objection and you have asked the locals so that's not likely.

2. It's only for a limited period.

3. You own the land so there's no trespass or affecting third party rights.

The worst they could do is serve you with a notice to remove your vehicle, but that's not likely to happen within your timescale. Given your circumstance, I would personally just go ahead and do it.


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## Mr 99g (Mar 7, 2012)

*Planning permission*

You can stay on your land for 28 days per year without residential planning permission! Hope this helps . Ps  apart from the neighbours who actually knows when you stopped" parking" and stated" staying" no planning need for parking!!


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## Bigpeetee (Mar 7, 2012)

Firefox said:


> Technically I think you do need planning permission.
> 
> But,
> 
> ...



I agree, given that the neighbours are Ok then it's unlikely to be even reported to council.

Even if it was, by telling them that it's time limited they'll probably turn a blind eye as getting all the court injunctions etc is costly and time consuming.

After the 28 days you are allowed there's only 2 months left to go.

Used to happen all the time in Rhyl, a large amusements company regularly parked a hot dog van on a small plot of their land, by the time the council had taken them to court it was the end of the season and they had taken it away.

Keep the neighbours happy and no one will know.

There are a lot of fairground people that over winter their caravans/5th wheelers on their own plot of land every year. Unlike the Irish Travellers they keep a low profile and keep it tidy.


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## Tbear (Mar 7, 2012)

In principle I agree with Northerner. Laws are made for good reasons and there is a price for breaking them but there is often a grey area.

You seem to be on good terms with your neighbours and if when you park up you set about cleaning tidying and generally making the plot look better who is going to complain. If there is a jobs worth that does complain? It normally takes for ever for the council to move Tinkers off public land so whats the chances of them making a serious attempt to shift you off your own land in under 3 months

Richard


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## oldpolicehouse (Mar 7, 2012)

JUST DO IT
Don't contact the planning authority.
I have a fair bit of experience with planners and individual building plots. My first self build (1980) I parked a 40Ft mobile home on the plot and lived in it for 3 years without planning permission and without any hassle. In my experience the planning authority are only interested when they are forced to take action because of neighbours complaining. Planning officers like a quiet life like the rest of us. 
Lets here it from the outraged.

Blue Skies


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## mitzimad (Mar 7, 2012)

id agree with old policehouse just do it until some one says you cant it took ten years to move the dale farm travellers you wont last that long as you wont qualify for legal aid  but you last as long as you want


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## murial (Mar 7, 2012)

*Just Do It I would not get planning permission*

Keep your house for council tax purpose etc. and then if the planners come knocking you are not living there you are just making the most of the land and it makes sense to park the motohome there in other words you did not realise you are doing anything wrong.and of course you will do what they recomend and all that will take time to sort.On the plus side you might spend 3 months with no complaints.


Channelcrosser said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> we have a plot of land in a nearby town which we recently had planning permission for a 2 bed bungalow. For one reason or another the permission lapsed. (Mnoey and circumstances)
> 
> ...


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## sean rua (Mar 7, 2012)

I find it ridiculous that folk are not allowed to live on their own land in a way that they choose themselves and that probably does no more harm than some of the traffic that may be entitled to park on the highway in front of your place.

It strikes me that the supporters of so-called planning law are mainly concerned with keeping folk they don't like away from their backyard. This would appear to be another negative form of NIMBYism and Big Brother state control over the individual.
 I mean what could be more basic than taking shelter and sleeping and cooking?

The whole anti-traveller thing has gone too far, imo. After all, we were doing it when there were plenty of places to go and to stay, and, in many cases, way before much of the current housing stock was built. It was councils and governments that took away the common land, so we had to buy our own.

Btw, if anybody wants to know more about the reality at Dale Farm, just ask. At the moment, it would appear that the council takes the view that it is illegal to live even in the original farm house ( now almost wrecked, by the way).
At the same time, the same council recently gave permission for dog kennels to be built not far away. Is it the case that animals can sleep in a shelter while humans cannot?

If that's progress, then I dread what the future may hold.

Planning is as corrupt as politicians, in my experience. As the socio-economic situation continues to crumble, I think we are in for some quite wild-westish-type land battles for survival.

sean rua.


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## freelander (Mar 8, 2012)

There definately shouldn't be a problem. I own land that I can't get planning permission on but I could live on it in my motorhome as it is movable without being towed. I would need planning permission for a static caravan but not a touring caravan! This has come from the local council in which my land is registered. I wouldn't even bother to request permission because local planners almost always like to show authority and know best! If you ever approached you only have to drive to local supermarket for your weekly shop and return to base, you're not a permanent fixture. Don't waste money applying.


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## Firefox (Mar 8, 2012)

A motorhome usually counts for the same as a caravan or static for the purposes of legislation as it comes under any vehicle or structure adapted for the purposes of living in. The regulations are pretty catch all, and you can only stay for 28 days a year even if it is your land. There may be local exceptions on certain land, but that's the general rule.

 However, you are right in practical terms, a motor-home is very mobile. It's very easy to leave for days and weeks and come back and very difficult to enforce. 3 months should be easy.


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## veedubmatt (Mar 8, 2012)

Firefox said:


> A motorhome usually counts for the same as a caravan or static for the purposes of legislation as it comes under any vehicle or structure adapted for the purposes of living in. The regulations are pretty catch all, and you can only stay for 28 days a year even if it is your land. There may be local exceptions on certain land, but that's the general rule.
> 
> However, you are right in practical terms, a motor-home is very mobile. It's very easy to leave for days and weeks and come back and very difficult to enforce. 3 months should be easy.



is that right ?? i owned a static caravan on a site for a few years and max time was 90 days is this not the same for motorhome ??

as for staying on your own land i would just do it it will take longer the 3 months to get you off the land


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 8, 2012)

Mr 99g said:


> You can stay on your land for 28 days per year without residential planning permission! Hope this helps . Ps  apart from the neighbours who actually knows when you stopped" parking" and stated" staying" no planning need for parking!!



Its not quite that easy.  

1)  You can stay in a caravan beside your or another persons house for an unlimited period provided you are using the house for amenities.

2)  You can permit someone to stay (in one caravan) on your land for one or two nights at a time.  The maximum nights that this can happen is 28 days without PP or a site licence.  *Note* It is not one van on the site for up to 28 days as some try to interpret it.

In both 1) and 2) above there is presumed planning consent under the 1947 Planning act.




> The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960
> 
> THIRD SCHEDULE
> 
> ...



A landowner (farm diversification) can have up to 28 caravans in storage (not for human habitation) without PP.

If there are no complaints then I can't see the planning officers bothering with your Motorhome "Parked" on your land.  I doubt if they will be checking that it isn't occupied at night.  

I occupied a caravan on a storage site I owned for 10 years without residential PP.  The reason I was there overnight was "for security" and the local planners knew this and we advertised 24 hour on site security.

If travelers stuck to the one or two nights rule and didn't occupy land en masse then there would be no need for landowners to seek an injunction to move them on.  I doubt if the Planning officers would be counting the nights unless it became obvious that it was exceeding the 28 day rule on a plot.  It is the landowners duty to keep the record of the number of nights and if this is not done, then the planning officer has to determine if the rule has been broken, to bring a prosecution against the land owner.

John


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## Firefox (Mar 8, 2012)

veedubmatt said:


> is that right ?? i owned a static caravan on a site for a few years and max time was 90 days is this not the same for motorhome ??
> 
> as for staying on your own land i would just do it it will take longer the 3 months to get you off the land




From the 1960 act. It's not definitive because there may be some local factors.



> The definition of a caravan is provided in section 29 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 as follows:
> In section 29 (1) of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 ("The 1960 Act") a caravan is defined as
> 
> "... any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another                      (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) *and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted* but does not include:
> ...


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## sean rua (Mar 8, 2012)

There always seems to be many anomalies and variations. Perhaps this is all down to interpretation.
 In the old days there was something known as "curtilage".

In some cases, a caravan was fine, provided it was "within the curtilage" of the main habitation. Even today, there are thousands of farms and racing stables where this still seems to apply.

Other areas, such as parts of Essex, allow hundreds of caravans to be parked on people's drives ( no doubt beside their owner's kin), but refuse to allow so much as a shepherd's hut for tenant farmers who wish to be near their stock. Even a summer house or chalet can be deemed illegal, if the councils so wish.

At the same time, they allow catteries and kennels to be erected, together with huge henhouses, massive tinbox farm sheds, tesco, and other things that do not really enhance the visual aspects of the place. All this in an area where it is deemed illegal to even sleep out in a sleeping-bag in your own backyard! 

A " nanny state" gone stone mad, imo. All they really care about is increasing their tax revenue and covering their own backs, should any busybody with a loud bark threaten to bite their backside.

sean rua.


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## tommy0121 (Mar 8, 2012)

*parking on land*



Channelcrosser said:


> Thanks guys for your input - very interesting and very different. Actually yes it is our intention to live in the motorhome until we leave about the end of September so a period of say 3 months.
> 
> Access to the plot requires us to drive onto a shared driveway from the highway so we are not as such creating another access to the road. We have written to the 3 neighbours who own the drive and they are quite happy for us to use the driveway.
> 
> ...


you have your nieghbours permission,.


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