# Wild camping is illegal !?



## julesanian (Jun 28, 2015)

I'm a criminal
You're a criminal
And you at the back there shaking your head are a criminal too lol
Apparently. 
According to this month's Practical Motorhome magazine it's illegal what we lot are up to. Do you think they're saying this because they are promoting their (Paid for) Nightstop scheme?


----------



## Weston (Jun 28, 2015)

Perhaps they share journalists with the Daily Mail. :lol-053:


----------



## Deleted member 207 (Jun 28, 2015)

ex News of The World journos surely?


----------



## colinm (Jun 28, 2015)

In england and wales it is illegal to set up camp on the highway and that includes laybys, it is also illegal to camp on anybodies land without permission.


----------



## Beemer (Jun 28, 2015)

Parking is different than pitching
Pitch | Define Pitch at Dictionary.com


----------



## Val54 (Jun 28, 2015)

I blame the OP :lol-049:, I feel a headache coming on................
Dave


----------



## Luckheart (Jun 28, 2015)

I stayed in a pub car park on the IOW last  year. Thought the land lord looked like a wrong 'un.


----------



## camping_gaz (Jun 28, 2015)

i don't pitch, i park


----------



## RichardHelen262 (Jun 28, 2015)

I don't camp I park up and have a sleep for my safety and other road uses safety


----------



## F4K EM (Jun 29, 2015)

*Illegal!*

I do Pitch and Camp, but as the reg plate says, F4K EM


----------



## Tallyman (Jun 29, 2015)

I seem to remember a road safety campaign a while ago suggesting if you feel tired when driving  , pull over and have a nap I'm sure older members will remember , just saying


----------



## Admin (Jun 29, 2015)

Oh my God!

I am going to start a crime stoppers line for people to report all them criminal truck drivers out their that are camping in lay-bys at night. It is about time we stamped out these criminals.

What a joke.

I would also like to point out that it is illegal to eat mince pies on Christmas Day in Great Britain. Maybe I should right an article highlighting that?


----------



## yorkieowl (Jun 29, 2015)

Its also illegal to:
Fines of up to £1000 await the citizen who tries to hang clothes on a line across a street, according to the Town Police Clauses Act of 1847. The same law prohibits leaving any “furniture…cask, tub, basket, pail, or bucket” in the street, or performing any cask maintenance thereupon.

Now come on own up - who leaves their wheelie bin out on the pavement, shame on you.


----------



## Wooie1958 (Jun 29, 2015)

I shall refrain from partaking in said activity forthwith.


----------



## campervanannie (Jun 29, 2015)

A pregnant woman can relieve herself anywhere in public.
And its illegal to die in the houses of parliament that's a shame.


----------



## maingate (Jun 29, 2015)

If it is illegal to wildcamp then I plead guilty to one specimen charge and ask for several thousand others to be taken into consideration.

It is illegal to burn your Wife at the stake if there is not a Y in the day.


----------



## n brown (Jun 29, 2015)

i never 'camp' up !

i don't even own any flamboyant clothing

or make-up


----------



## trevskoda (Jun 29, 2015)

Admin said:


> Oh my God!
> 
> I am going to start a crime stoppers line for people to report all them criminal truck drivers out their that are camping in lay-bys at night. It is about time we stamped out these criminals.
> 
> ...



no mince pies on xmas day,looks like im of on a ship to camp in australia.


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

Technically, it is illegal to park on the highway too - let's report all these thoughtless law-breakers immediately!


----------



## n brown (Jun 29, 2015)

don't go doing any of that walking around in the evening ! 'wandering abroad' has long been illegal under the vagrancy act.. oh, and if you stop wandering,then you're creating an obstruction.....right bunch of crims on here !


----------



## colinm (Jun 29, 2015)

Wouldn't it be best if posts where to stick to facts and not myths.
It is not illegal to eat mince pies at Christmas, there are no laws which discriminate between pregnant women and any body else urinating in public, it is not illegal to die in the houses of parliament, and before anyone posts it, it's not legal to kill a welshman with a longbow in chester, not even neal kinnock.


----------



## Barleycorn (Jun 29, 2015)

So pregnant women can't use a policemans helmet for the call of nature either?  Boo!


----------



## Admin (Jun 29, 2015)

Ok

When things get a little quieter for me I shall write to every Police force in Great Britain and ask for their guidance, I will in my letter ask why truck drivers are allowed to park overnight.

I will post the responses.


----------



## n brown (Jun 29, 2015)

'sleeping abroad' is illegal too- just don't do it !


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 29, 2015)

As per Entick v Carrington (1765) the state may do nothing but that which is expressly authorised by law, while the individual may do anything but that which is forbidden by law.


----------



## colinm (Jun 29, 2015)

Admin said:


> Ok
> 
> When things get a little quieter for me I shall write to every Police force in Great Britain and ask for their guidance, I will in my letter ask why truck drivers are allowed to park overnight.
> 
> I will post the responses.



JT should be able to provide 'line and verse' on the subject, the only question that needs answering, what is termed 'setting up camp'.
As for truck drivers, they are obliged by law to stop and there is nowhere near enough parking provision for this, the CPS would have great difficulty in getting any prosecution even if they wanted to try.


----------



## RogerV (Jun 29, 2015)

Tallyman said:


> I seem to remember a road safety campaign a while ago suggesting if you feel tired when driving  , pull over and have a nap I'm sure older members will remember , just saying



It is said that tiredness kills more people on the roads than the influence of alcohol and yet being tired is treated as a joke by so many people.


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

Whatever you think of them, their powers are given to them under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 an the Finance Act 2007. So their powers may be wide-ranging but they are not an exception to the law.


----------



## Pauljenny (Jun 29, 2015)

*Put the cuffs on.*

It's a fair cop,guilty as charged.

  How about all of us turning up at our local nick at the same moment and confessing to this evil crime. Park our vans on their car parks and tell them we expect to stay for the night?


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

By saying they make up their own laws you did indeed say that they acted outside the law! And since when has tax avoidance been considered illegal????


----------



## runnach (Jun 29, 2015)

Setting up camp is illegal and technically parking too. In my mind and there are other examples the laws are there to cover each eventuality. How they are applied or if applied is the tricky part to work out.

Should you take a taxi licenced hackney carriage, it is still a requirement to carry a bale of hay !!!...I wonder if it voids the insurance when they don't :baby:

Channa


----------



## GRWXJR (Jun 29, 2015)

I actually think that 'the establishment' are busy with some think-tank (or individual Govt bodies are doing their own thinking) to find ways to interpret or exploit  'The Law' to provide means of cash-generation for their austerity coffers?


Example 1:  The Law changed a while ago so that, if you have a vehicle registered in your name, but you aren't actually the named insurer on that vehicle... then its a strict liability offence of you owning an uninsured vehicle, with a fixed penalty fine for a 1st offence.

So...... even if that vehicle IS insured for use on the road by its driver, and that this valid insurance can be proved via the MIB Database which is used by the DVLA.... they'll fine you - a letter comes in the post, job done (unless you are daft enough to want to deny the charge, in which case you can have your day in court and pay a higher fine plus costs instead, as you ARE Guilty automatically).

Unless a vehicle in your name is either a) insured by you, or b) declared SORN and untaxed, then you are nicked.  End of.

So, if you (say) bought a car for a son/daughter on finance... that means you need to be the one named on the reg document to satisfy the Finance people.  But... unless you then insure it (and of course a vehicle can only be covered under one policy, so you'd want the son/daughter to arrange their own insurance in their own name - so you cannot to BOTH)... Catch 22, and you fall foul of the DVLA, who open your wallet for you.

(Did you know btw, that these days the big traffic jam-butties are so loaded with tech and cameras that they automatically run your reg number and cross-check it against the MIB and DVLA databases to check its taxed and insured - without the Plod inside it needing to action a thing?  And, that it will audio warn him and flash up on a screen any passing vehicle which is recorded as not having all the paperwork up-to-scratch near-instantly?)


Example 2:  A friend who runs his own small Business got a randon-check visit the other day... by the Health & Safety Executive (HSA).  Now, he runs a tidy and decently run small business, and they weren't visiting because he had a poor H&S record... far from it in fact.  The turned up and stated that (and he had no choice in the matter) that IF they found absolutely nothing in the entire place they could fault (pretty much impossible, esp. when you consider they are there TO MAKE SURE they DO find something, anything however trivial) then his business would be liable for their costs as a minimum.... at £120/Hr!  They were there till early afternoon, and then further stated that the rest of the day was required for them to retire and compile/write their report on his business (at his expense of course).  So the HSA seemingly can turn up at random, uninvited, and then disrupt his entire working day without notice and then make him pay their rate to do so, Legally!  (His place is v good, so they found nothing of note... but enough to 'justify' them making him pick up the tab.  Imagine that if they found more serious issues, they could then swell the coffers further by getting the firm prosecuted and fined, with costs I imagine).

Add in things like the so-called 'safety camera's' (Scam-era's) etc.

It seems to me that we can start viewing the Public Sector, Civil Service type Organistations as a modern-day Dick Turpin... except that they have the full protection of 'The Law' to make it legalised robbery.

The whole place is becoming a corrupt mess where it seems that our unlected civil services are so desperate for cash that they are resorting to any old underhanded "not-stealthy-at-all, stealth taxation" to fund their already way-above typical private sector income levels and their whacking great early-retirement pension pots.

'Legal' does not necessarily mean right, proper and justifiable - it just means 'untouchable', perhaps.

G.


----------



## don simon (Jun 29, 2015)

colinmd said:


> Wouldn't it be best if posts where to stick to facts and not myths.
> It is not illegal to eat mince pies at Christmas, there are no laws which discriminate between pregnant women and any body else urinating in public, it is not illegal to die in the houses of parliament, and before anyone posts it, *it's not legal to kill a welshman with a longbow in chester*, not even neal kinnock.


As a Welshman who lived in Chester I can attest to the fact that it is not legal, didn't stop the buggers trying though...

In response to the OP: Only if caught.


----------



## trevskoda (Jun 29, 2015)

campervanannie said:


> A pregnant woman can relieve herself anywhere in public.
> And its illegal to die in the houses of parliament that's a shame.



a police man has to offer his helmet for the said lady,it was on tv.


----------



## trevskoda (Jun 29, 2015)

John H said:


> Whatever you think of them, their powers are given to them under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 an the Finance Act 2007. So their powers may be wide-ranging but they are not an exception to the law.



sorry john but in there eyes you are guilty and its up to you to prove you are not,i know of a person who went through hell at the hands.


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

Rubbish. I never said all laws are fine; I simply said they were the law. I am opposed to several laws but that doesn't change the fact that they are laws.


----------



## n brown (Jun 29, 2015)

saw a nice quote by JKRowling the other day-

'' vitriol is so often the tribute inadequacy pays to articulacy ''

free to a good home if anyone finds a use for it !


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

[No message]


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

Although over a year out of date now, this article explains very clearly what aggressive tax avoidance is and the reasons why HMRC and others keep a close eye on those engaging in it. Tax avoidance: What are the rules? - BBC News . Anything else I can help you with?


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jun 29, 2015)

HMRC do make up their own interpretations of the existing legislation.  Take for example Caravans/Motor Caravans over 7m long in the VAT guidance they say they are zero rated if over 7m long.   They also say they use the definition of a caravan from the 1960 Act.  *They do not.*

The definition in the 1960 Act is 
"caravan" means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or 
by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) *and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted,*

This is from correspondence with HMRC.



> Motor homes and motor caravans
> Motor homes and motor caravans aren't considered to be cars for VAT purposes so long as certain features have been incorporated into the vehicle. These are:
> a permanently installed sink and cooking facilities
> seating arrangements so that diners can sit at the meal table
> ...





> HMRC Reference: Notice 701/20 (February 2004)
> 
> 2. The VAT treatment of caravans
> 2.1 What is a caravan?
> ...



Note the subtle difference in the definition's last line.   
1960 Act: "or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) *and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted,*
HMRC version:  "or by being transported on a motor vehicle so designed or adapted"

By this means they say a Motor Caravan is not a caravan for VAT purposes but is taxed as a Motor Vehicle yet they also state "Motor homes and motor caravans aren't considered to be cars for VAT purposes".

To challenge this it would have to be taken up by a trader affected (not an end user).  That would involve them having to appoint a barrister to represent them at a VAT tribunal.   With this expense the trade simply accept the VAT decision.


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

[No message]


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

I refer you to nbrown's post number 42 

And I have to say that I had a good laugh at your statement that you meant one thing but said another and I should have known what you meant. As you, yourself, are fond of telling others - if you are not precise you must expect to be misunderstood!


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jun 29, 2015)

Admin said:


> Ok
> 
> When things get a little quieter for me I shall write to every Police force in Great Britain and ask for their guidance, I will in my letter ask why truck drivers are allowed to park overnight.
> 
> I will post the responses.



The OP also shows us the support we can expect from the Motorhome Press.    The local authorities make up their own definitions regarding the use of vehicles equipped for sleeping.   Each section of devolved government also do the same.

Our current government has publicly stated it is "a hands off government" and it is the job of the local authorities to undertake.   So there is no standard answer for anywhere in the UK.

As stated in another post they can't even agree the definition of a caravan or Motor Caravan.


----------



## Tbear (Jun 29, 2015)

Phil should market John and David as a soap opera. Sort of Eastenders with an an IQ. Anyone think of a good title?

Richard


----------



## alcam (Jun 29, 2015)

So you got caught then ?


----------



## John H (Jun 29, 2015)

Tbear said:


> Phil should market John and David as a soap opera. Sort of Eastenders with an an IQ. Anyone think of a good title?
> 
> Richard



I'll only agree if Barbara Windsor plays me!


----------



## maingate (Jun 29, 2015)

Tbear said:


> Phil should market John and David as a soap opera. Sort of Eastenders with an an IQ. Anyone think of a good title?
> 
> Richard



Boring Farts?


----------



## maingate (Jun 29, 2015)

I was being gentle. I could have added the word 'Old' to the title.


----------



## Tbear (Jun 29, 2015)

maingate said:


> Boring Farts?



But you are still reading it  Addictive isn't it. Just like some people find Corrie.

Richard


----------



## maingate (Jun 29, 2015)

Tbear said:


> But you are still reading it  Addictive isn't it. Just like some people find Corrie.
> 
> Richard



I have time to answer you because it is not 7.30 pm yet.

Do you think that Roy will ever find love again?


----------



## Tbear (Jun 29, 2015)

maingate said:


> I have time to answer you because it is not 7.30 pm yet.
> 
> Do you think that Roy will ever find love again?



OK you got me there. I do know what you are talking about. 

Richard


----------



## julesanian (Jun 29, 2015)

The thing is - I was going to write to Practical Motorhome magazine and point out the error of their pronouncement re illegal overnights but as the missus said, 
"Don't ! We don't want even more wilders coming and stealing our favourite spots. That article will put the wind up many motorhomers.'
There were 17 of us at Scarborough the other night, we don't want even more, except for us 'official' wild campers. 
We are the chosen few lol


----------



## RogerV (Jun 29, 2015)

julesanian said:


> except for us 'official' wild campers.
> We are the chosen few lol



Exactly.

There are things about which to tell the world, and then there are times to keep one's gob very firmly shut. :lol-049::lol-049:


----------



## Freespirit (Jun 29, 2015)

*Be Aware*

We always break up our long trips with overnight stopovers.
The signs are all over 'Feeling tired?' Take a driving break.
With must always comply with Health and Safety Regulations.
That is what I would say if necessary. 
BUT remember if you have only one driver and you stop in a layby
or other Public Place do not drink alcohol that would take you over the limit.  
If you do get a Police visit and are required to move on then the driver 
could be classed as 'drunk in charge of a motor vehicle'  
I have a very understanding wife and is sympathetic to my daily need for alcohol.  lol
We both drive our Motorhome but we never both have alcohol in Public areas so one of us 
is always within the drink drive limit.  I do not know the law but truck drivers park in laybys 
overnight for rest periods, so why can't Motorhome drivers?

Regards


----------



## RogerV (Jun 29, 2015)

Freespirit said:


> If you do get a Police visit and are required to move on then the driver
> could be classed as 'drunk in charge of a motor vehicle'



Some years ago, a copper decided to try it on with a lorry driver who had a few pints and was sound asleep in his sleeper cab.

IIRC, the magistrates threw it out on the basis that he was in his bunk and his driving record over the previous few days indicated that he was not intending to drive for such a time that would allow the alcohol he'd consumed to naturally dissipate.

I would suggest, and I'm not a lawyer, that as long as one is in the habitat area of the motorhome and the keys are not in the ignition then the police would have a hard time proving "Drunk in charge".

An insurance company article lends support ... Motorhome Owners Warned about Laws Concerning Alcohol over Christmas


----------



## jeanette (Jun 30, 2015)

campervanannie said:


> A pregnant woman can relieve herself anywhere in public.
> And its illegal to die in the houses of parliament that's a shame.



I think it's a bit for the Houses of Parliament :sleep-027:


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jun 30, 2015)

Freespirit said:


> If you do get a Police visit and are required to move on then the driver
> could be classed as 'drunk in charge of a motor vehicle'
> Regards



There would be only one reason for a Police officer to ask you to move on in a layby and that is obstruction.

Wild Camping is illegal, unless  it is in a tent and more than 50m from a road or building in Scotland only.  Motor Vehicles are not covered by the wild camping (Right to Roam) legislation.

Another reason, out of the scope of the Police now and under the authority of the Highways authority/Local Authority, is if you have set up an encampment in a layby or roadside verge.  The Police officer is now required to report the incident to the authority to deal with it.   There is also a requirement that there must a visit by an authorities officer to determine if there is a problem and if there is to negotiate a removal. That officer must be aware of the availability of spaces caravan sites/Traveller sites in the area.  This visit must be made at a reasonable hour.  Only if an authorities officer receives a refusal to negotiate, or that agreed time limit is exceeded, will the Police be involved to oversee that the law is upheld by both sides.

Now we come into the area of just what constitutes an encampment? and what constitutes  parking?

I recently requested the Department for Transport to issue a document similar to the Spanish Instruction to Traffico.   This makes it clear all issues related to the use and parking Autocaravan off site.   

This was part of their letter.



> Highways authorities are empowered to provide parking areas for all classes of vehicles and can also restrict parking. Where parking of motorhomes is forbidden the highway authority must make a Traffic Regulation Order and erect a sign so that motorists know of the ban. If there is no sign, then the motorhome may be parked unless there is a sign banning overnight camping. On motorways some service stations allow parking and for further details you can visit the Highways England website at https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/highways-england
> 
> I should advise that since local authorities are best placed to manage local highways because of their local knowledge there are no plans to adopt the system used in Spain.
> Our Ref: GT51/3/3/135532
> ...



So if there are no signs forbidding parking.  It is permissible to park.  Any sign must be backed by a TRO.   Even the officers of DfT do not seem to have a clear understanding of Parking and Camping. ie. " motorhome may be parked unless there is a sign banning overnight camping".

We, I believe understand that parking is where only the tyres of the vehicle are in contact with the road surface (Same as HGVs parking).  Putting anything on the outside, under or around the parked vehicle constitutes camping (Setting up an encampment in breach of the Highways Act).   

Sleeping, cooking or eating is a red herring, as those issues form part of Traffic Regulation Orders made by a local authority relating to parking bays and car parks.  There is no national guidance on these issues issued by central government. I have assurances of this in response to an FOI request to the DfT.

The following is taken from a Cumbria County Council document.



> On Highways land
> On Highways land there is no provision to authorise encampments on public highways. All encampments will be deemed obstructions and therefore ‘not allowed’. The Highways Act allows for removal of unauthorised obstructions.
> 
> Common law rights to recover land from trespassers are also available to local authorities over land they occupy.
> ...



So there we have it.  Wild Parking OK


----------



## RogerV (Jun 30, 2015)

Agreed.

I think some people get confused about the definitions of "camping" and "parking" and the differences between them.


----------



## colinm (Jun 30, 2015)

Thank you John, I knew you had 'chapter and verse' on the subject.


----------



## Pauljenny (Jun 30, 2015)

*Title?*



tbear said:


> phil should market john and david as a soap opera. Sort of eastenders with an an iq. Anyone think of a good title?
> 
> Richard



zzzzzzz!


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

In addition to John T's excellent post above, it is worth pointing out that a vehicle can be legally "parked" irrespective of whether or not there is anybody inside the vehicle. Further, there is no law in the UK that prohibits sleeping in a vehicle. Thus it is possible to conclude that there is no law against what we call wildcamping. Unless you have anything other than the wheels in contact with the ground or have awnings, tables etc out you are parked. Of course, local authorities are empowered to restrict parking through TROs (which must be accompanied by adequate signage) but in the absence of that, and provided you are not breaking any other laws in relation to pollution, obstruction etc, you are as entitled to park as much as any other vehicle is entitled to park. Perhaps we could overcome a lot of objections is we changed the description of what we do from wildcamping to wildparking?


----------



## Geraldine (Jun 30, 2015)

John H said:


> In addition to John T's excellent post above, it is worth pointing out that a vehicle can be legally "parked" irrespective of whether or not there is anybody inside the vehicle. Further, there is no law in the UK that prohibits sleeping in a vehicle. Thus it is possible to conclude that there is no law against what we call wildcamping. Unless you have anything other than the wheels in contact with the ground or have awnings, tables etc out you are parked. Of course, local authorities are empowered to restrict parking through TROs (which must be accompanied by adequate signage) but in the absence of that, and provided you are not breaking any other laws in relation to pollution, obstruction etc, you are as entitled to park as much as any other vehicle is entitled to park. Perhaps we could overcome a lot of objections is we changed the description of what we do from wildcamping to wildparking?



Where does it say this,The legally "Parked" bit.
Cheers
David


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 30, 2015)

How can you tell if a sign is backed by a TRO. :cheers:


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

Star Trekker said:


> Where does it say this,The legally "Parked" bit.
> Cheers
> David



The irony here is that the case law has been developed to counter the defence that "I can't be parked, I am just waiting" when people have, for example, received parking tickets on double yellow lines while waiting outside shops. One example is here Am I considered parked if my engine is still running but you can find lots of others if you look. The result is that the courts have established on several occasions that it makes no difference if the vehicle is occupied - or even if the engine is running. Thus nobody can say you are not parking because the vehicle is occupied.


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

Indeed, I pointed out that it was developed to enable fines to be imposed but the fact is that it is there. It is the law until a higher court overturns it (which is unlikely) and it can be used to demonstrate in any court case that it cannot be said you were not legally parked because you were in the vehicle (provided, of course, you were not breaking any other laws).


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jun 30, 2015)

Unfortunately this is a problem David.   UK Local Authorities interpret the occupation, including sleeping, cooking and eating, of a vehicle as "camping".  The term used is "Habitation".   Local authorities interpret parking as a vehicle left unoccupied.  In many cases car parks also have this clause written into the TRO.

A car park is private highway, not a public one.  It can be gated but not locked.  If the car park has a locked gate, it is private land.  The term highway defines any right of way to which the public have unhindered access on foot or in a vehicle or other means of transport such as horses.  

It is an offence under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 for a landowner to permit the stationing of a caravan for human habitation (Caravan in includes motor vehicles designed or adapted for human habitation) on land in his control without a Caravan Sites Licence granted by the local authority.  

There is an exemption for one caravan for 1 or 2 night only at a time (If the land holding, un-built on, exceeds 5 acres then up to 3 caravans are allowed for no more than 2 nights).  The number of nights this can occur in total is 28 in a calendar year.

So a pub without a site licence or an exemption is only allow one van to stay and on no more than 28 nights in a calendar year.  This is enforced (or not) by the local planning department.   This is why landowners erect signs saying no overnight camping.   They can then show they were not party to permitting this unauthorised use to happen.  There is no offence committed by the person stationing the caravan.  So therefor Wild Parking is not an offence.

Practical Motorhome is promoting a night stop scheme using a paragraph 5 exemption, granted by the Motor Caravanners' Club to the pub landlord or owner.  Maximum of 5 vans at any one time.
Pub Stops and Brit Stops schemes are not licenced or covered by an exemption. 

This Wildcamping group holds exemptions for rallies, but not to grant permission to landowners to set up an exempted site.  The group can meet at a pub car park for a rally and numbers are only limited by the available capacity or the landlords wishes. Maximum stay is 5 days.  No formal planning permission is required for this, only the landowners permission.

Another form of exemption, with local authority consultation, is for 28 days use and is used for Temporary Holiday sites.


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

John T is absolutely correct. The points I was making relate to what can be considered the public highway (which is where most of our POIs are). If it is private land (such as a pub car park) then the law is, of course, different.


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

Nobody ever said the law was sensible, David - just that it is the law!


----------



## Fazerloz (Jun 30, 2015)

So if there is no reference to the TRO on a sign then it is unenforceable. Is that what were saying. Just to make it clear for all. :cheers:


----------



## John H (Jun 30, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> So if there is no reference to the TRO on a sign then it is unenforceable. Is that what were saying. Just to make it clear for all. :cheers:



The short answer is yes


----------



## colinm (Jul 1, 2015)

Is that a reference to the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960?
This came about to combat a big problem, one that if it hadn't been tackled we would be in a sorry state by now with a solid wall of caravans around the coast. Funny enough a couple of months back I was looking into ways around the legislation as it makes something we want to do a bit awkward, but I'd rather that than a countryside littered with white boxes.


----------



## st3v3 (Jul 1, 2015)

What do we make of this sign? MH's allowed, for 72 hrs, but no overnight sleeping


----------



## sagart (Jul 1, 2015)

Admin said:


> Oh my God!
> 
> I am going to start a crime stoppers line for people to report all them criminal truck drivers out their that are camping in lay-bys at night. It is about time we stamped out these criminals.
> 
> ...



Try looking at Illegal mince pies and other UK legal legends - BBC News, sorry to destroy another urban legend


----------



## vwalan (Jul 1, 2015)

trailers are vehicles in their own right . many are registered and taxed . and motted . and insured . 
mind some arent motted or even the vehicles that pull them . all legal. 
you cant change the rules . you just have to fall in line with them.


----------



## st3v3 (Jul 1, 2015)

If I'm in there sleeping and they knock on the door to tell me I can't sleep I'll wake up, so won't be breaking the rules. It's another Schrödinger's cat...

The motorcaravan occupants can be considered asleep and awake at the same time....


----------



## n brown (Jul 1, 2015)

if they knock on the door,shout ''i'm asleep'' 
that should fox them !


----------



## vwalan (Jul 1, 2015)

no. mines not a fifth wheel caravan its a living van . totally different . 
as it is we still cant say if that sign is legal as there isnt any mention of the tro on the face . might be on the reverse side . but might not be . 
councils think they can change the rules but they cant . 
i understood exactly where you were coming from . 
unfortunately many m,homes are the homes of many ,and they live in them and stop places for months . 
they arent just two weeks a year holiday vehicles . thousands live in them fulltime in uk , france germany etc . they dont have houses just m,homes .


----------



## sak (Jul 1, 2015)

So if you have a self build and do not change the registration document vehicle type to a motor caravan and stay awake all night you can wildcamp/park.


----------



## colinm (Jul 1, 2015)

We like to keep it simple, the most impact we make apart from wheels would proboly be ramps, but there is a growing trend to have awnings and toads, many people nowaways seem to treat motorhomes as a caravan with a engine up front, park up and drive off in the toad.


----------



## John H (Jul 1, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> What do we make of this sign? MH's allowed, for 72 hrs, but no overnight sleeping



I'd love to see the TRO (if any) that backs up that sign! I'd also like to know if there have been any prosecutions and how they proved the occupants were asleep! It seems to me, from what I have read of Weymouth's attitude, that they are trying to liberalise attitudes but have put in the ridiculous "no overnight sleeping" bit in order to placate the objectors (campsite owners?). As an amusing aside, what would they do if you slept during the day and partied all night? The reality is that "overnight" has no legal definition at all, so such a regulation (if it exists) could not be enforced.


----------



## n brown (Jul 1, 2015)

there's things going on now- rents are rising,rules are changing, benefits can't match the rents demanded by private landlords, some bugger's flogged most of the public housing . 
on the plus side,in our consumer society, vans and caravans are cheap-so people can live in tin boxes that can't find or afford bricks 
look round the backstreets ,hidden corners and industrial areas of any town or city and you'll start to see the magnitude of this social change


----------



## antiquesam (Jul 2, 2015)

I fully agree Mr Brown. I've seen quite a few blokes sleeping in cars in large towns and Cities and couples living on CL's and going out to work in the morning. I'm on a CS in Corfe Mullen and there is a bloke living in a two man tent who asked me if he disturbed me coming in from work at 1am.


----------



## Geraldine (Jul 2, 2015)

John H said:


> The short answer is yes



Down here in Worthing.At the sea front beginning of Wordsworth rd,running for about half a mile are blue signs with a picture of a car.I can not find it in the Highway Code signs.
There is no other writing anywhere.
On the Streetlife forum a Motorhome owner who lives locally got a ticket for parking there.He did not challenge it and paid the fine.
Question can the council just go around putting these signs up thus removing or banning motorhomes from parking full stop?
Cheers


----------



## John H (Jul 2, 2015)

Star Trekker said:


> Down here in Worthing.At the sea front beginning of Wordsworth rd,running for about half a mile are blue signs with a picture of a car.I can not find it in the Highway Code signs.
> There is no other writing anywhere.
> On the Streetlife forum a Motorhome owner who lives locally got a ticket for parking there.He did not challenge it and paid the fine.
> Question can the council just go around putting these signs up thus removing or banning motorhomes from parking full stop?
> Cheers



Hi

Because the process of getting a TRO can be both expensive and time-consuming, some councils put up signs as a deterrent without going through the process. They have no legal backing and councils are entitled to put them up. What they are not entitled to do is to impose fines. I don't know whether or not there is a TRO in the case you mention but it would be worth asking the council to show you the TRO that applies to those signs - and see what happens!


----------



## RogerV (Jul 2, 2015)

Star Trekker said:


> On the Streetlife forum a Motorhome owner who lives locally got a ticket for parking there.He did not challenge it and paid the fine.



Therein lies the real problem. As long as the people accept whatever "rules" local authorities and others impose on us they will continue to do so. Few of these rules are to improve life for us, but to make life easier for the said bureaucrats.



Star Trekker said:


> Question can the council just go around putting these signs up thus removing or banning motorhomes from parking full stop?



As long as the people fail to challenge them the authorities will do what they like. To challenge effectively one has to educate oneself about the relevant laws and far too many people won't make the effort.


----------



## Geraldine (Jul 2, 2015)

John H said:


> Hi
> 
> Because the process of getting a TRO can be both expensive and time-consuming, some councils put up signs as a deterrent without going through the process. They have no legal backing and councils are entitled to put them up. What they are not entitled to do is to impose fines. I don't know whether or not there is a TRO in the case you mention but it would be worth asking the council to show you the TRO that applies to those signs - and see what happens!



Thank you John.Will do


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jul 2, 2015)

All traffic signs placed on a highway or on a road to which the public has access (right of passage in Scotland), as defined in section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and amended by the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991, must be either prescribed by Regulations or authorised by the Secretary of State for Transport (for installations in England), the Department for Regional Development (Northern Ireland), the Scottish Executive or the Welsh Assembly Government as appropriate.

The signs must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD).   It is the TRO that matters, not whether a sign has the TRO reference on it.   If in doubt ask the authority for the TRO.

Parking signs have to have the Blue P but can have other plates attached to the pole as this 



This shows a sign plate (part of a car and a caravan) where Motor Caravans and Caravan towed by a vehicle can park.  The one with only a car restricts Motor Caravans.

There is only one sign banning Trailer Caravans in the TSRGD 


Note only Trailer caravans.

The Secretary for state has approved a sign for use in England (not Wales and Scotland) banning Motor Caravans from waiting between certain hours.  That is Sign R


So the signs seem to be fine.


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Jul 2, 2015)

John H said:


> I'd love to see the TRO (if any) that backs up that sign! I'd also like to know if there have been any prosecutions and how they proved the occupants were asleep! It seems to me, from what I have read of Weymouth's attitude, that they are trying to liberalise attitudes but have put in the ridiculous "no overnight sleeping" bit in order to placate the objectors (campsite owners?). As an amusing aside, what would they do if you slept during the day and partied all night? The reality is that "overnight" has no legal definition at all, so such a regulation (if it exists) could not be enforced.



That sign simply says you can visit our town and leave your motorhome here while you do so, but we want you to use our Hotels and B&Bs if you do so.


----------



## John H (Jul 2, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> That sign simply says you can visit our town and leave your motorhome here while you do so, but we want you to use our Hotels and B&Bs if you do so.



Indeed it does - and as such it is yet another in the long list of deterrent signs that councils put up without the force of a TRO behind them. They are perfectly entitled to do so, as I said earlier, but personally I find it sneaky and never sanctioned such signs when I was in charge of our local council.


----------



## RogerV (Jul 2, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> That sign simply says you can visit our town and leave your motorhome here while you do so, but we want you to use our Hotels and B&Bs if you do so.


Sadly it doesn't seem to occur to the town hall bureaucrats that if people wanted to use hotels, B&Bs etc they wouldn't buy a motorhome and if they are stopped from using their motorhome they'll go elsewhere so the council's business taxpayers lose out.


----------



## Steveyates02 (Jul 7, 2015)

*Steveyates02*

Well that was an interesting read, now I have joined your site can't see me getting much work done :mad1:


----------

