# Are smart motorways smart



## Fisherman (Mar 10, 2021)

*M1 fatal smash puts spotlight back on Northamptonshire's smart motorway
Police say absence of hard shoulder contributed to 19-year-old's death near Luton*

By Kevin Nicholls

Wednesday, 10th March 2021, 12:52 pm

Police and a coroner have raised more concerns about the safety of smart motorways after an HGV ploughed into the back of a broken-down people carrier on the M1, killing a 19-year-old.


The smash happened near Luton on a section of motorway where the hard shoulder was being used as 'live lane' by speeding traffic.

A similar section of smart motorway has been in operation for the last two years between Northampton and junction 19.






A stretch of the M1 between Northampton and junction 19 has already been turned into a smart motorway way with no hard shoulder.
Photo: Getty Images



Work on a £373million upgrade on another stretch south from Northampton to Milton Keynes is due to finish next year.

Bedfordshire Police told an inquest into the death of Zahid Ahmed this week: "The absence of a hard shoulder contributed to the collision.

"Had the [deceased’s] vehicle been able to stop in a location other than that of a live lane, the offending HGV would not have driven into the back of it."

Northamptonshire Police Chief Constable Nick Adderley has confessed last year that he is "not a fan" of the smart motorways.






Work to convert the M1 into a smart motorway between Northampton and Milton Keynes is due to be finished next year
Mr Ahmed was in a rear passenger seat of a Kia Sedona which stopped near junction 11A.

Three vehicles managed to swerve past the stranded vehicle, which had its hazard lights on, before a HGV which failed to brake hit it at nearly 60mph.

Lorry driver Wojciech Bukowski, 65, was later charged with causing death by dangerous driving and jailed for more than four years.

The crash in December 2019 was on a stretch of the M1 with an 'actively managed hard shoulder' where the emergency lane can be used by traffic following advice from overhead signs to ease congestion.

Both the current and planned upgrades in Northamptonshire will be 'all lane running' with no hard shoulder at any time.

Both types of smart motorway are controlled by matrix signs operated remotely using traffic cameras and have refuges at regular intervals for emergencies.

Following Mr Ahmed's inquest, Bedfordshire coroner Tom Stoate issued a Prevention of Future Deaths report to Highways England, raising concerns about the absence of a hard shoulder on the motorway.

Mr Stoate wrote: "The collision occurred primarily due to the failure of the lorry driver to perceive and respond to the presence of the Kia in enough time to avoid a collision, and also due to the presence of the Kia in a running lane of the motorway as no alternative was available to the driver.

"The vehicle in which the deceased was a passenger suffered a mechanical defect which caused it to lose power.

"It is not clear where the vehicle could have pulled to a halt in a safe place in these circumstances, given that there was no hard shoulder and all lanes were live. I consider that could create a risk of future deaths."

In January, MPs asked for evidence from Northamptonshire's M1 users after launching an inquiry into controversial traffic management systems on smart motorways.


Tory MP Huw Merriman, who chairs the Commons Transport Select committee said: "The public's confidence in smart motorways has been dented by increasing fatalities on these roads."

A investigation by BBC's Panorama last year revealed 38 people died on Britain’s 200 miles of smart motorways in the previous five years, compared to 90 a year over the whole 2,300-mile network.

But the Government's own stock-take report which followed pointed to lower fatal casualty rates for smart motorways.

At least two other coroners have expressed public concerns following deaths on the M1 in Yorkshire.


One went so far as to refer Highways England, which manages the country's motorway network, to the Crown Prosecution Service to consider if corporate manslaughter charges were appropriate.

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/...EMtataT3XW19fFHBKYhDMB_nFhI9V5nN7hmX-8I0qoBik


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## mistericeman (Mar 10, 2021)

As a regular user of the m6 between Manchester and Birmingham (at least 4 days a week) 

I've seen some horrendous accidents AND near misses on the 'smart' sections.... 

As a system it could work well BUT general driving standards and limitations with the system itself mean it doesn't... 

Also when something does go pear-shaped it's very difficult to get emergency services to the scene through solid lanes of traffic.


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## Tim120 (Mar 10, 2021)

Absolute death traps if broken down.


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## trixie88 (Mar 10, 2021)

agree totally with tim 120..........DEATHTRAPS.........cannot understand the thinking and logic for these motorways sometimes i wonder if the powers that be who make these decisions just dont have the common sense or logic or foresight..........to envisage the outcome.........its like their brain is only focused on  easing congestion////and not consequences......
wonder if they have given thought to how motorways will be in 10/20 yrs time///////re congestion etc..........


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## Derekoak (Mar 10, 2021)

If they deserved the name smart, they would  have automatic stopped vehicle camera recognition in place before they opened as smart. The cameras would trigger the left lane to be closed within seconds. The technology is available. They will be installing it soon! they just decided to do the motorway conversion a few years before the safety system. Someone is responsible for that decision.


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## yeoblade (Mar 10, 2021)

They are Very dangerous but we, as a small country don't have the money and particularly space to do any other plan, have them or have more traffic jams and delays, that seems to be the choice.
The hard shoulder on a normal M'way is also a very dangerous place.


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## Tookey (Mar 10, 2021)

Source is questionable but I think you get my point. £££££









						Traffic jams 'cost UK economy £6.9bn in 2019'
					

UK commuters wasted an average of 115 hours stuck in traffic last year, according to a new study.




					uk.finance.yahoo.com
				




'Acceptable loses' was probably the expression used around the table


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## Fisherman (Mar 10, 2021)

In the fire service when assessing any risk we always factored in human error.
Quite simply this system is dependent upon everyone driving within the speed limit, paying full attention to what’s going on, and being fully conversant with the demands of this technology. There seems inadequate latitude for human error, and without that latitude accidents and sadly deaths will occur. We are not machines we all err at times, and our minds all wander when driving at times, particularly when driving long distances on motorways.


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## mark61 (Mar 10, 2021)

Not a fan either. Just as anything else, when you push capacity to the limit, when things go wrong, they go wrong very quickly.

Pretty sure the junction in question (Luton) the hard shoulder is a permanent live lane running into a Smart motorway section, which are probably worse than lengths of Smart motorway.
Saying that, I'm on that road upto 8 times a week and incidents are few.

Got to agree with points in post 6 too.


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## RichardHelen262 (Mar 10, 2021)

The hard shoulder was always a dangerous place to stop, but then to open it up to traffic was never going to end well


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## antiquesam (Mar 10, 2021)

The M42 works, but if you break down you are within sight of an emergency refuge. Unfortunately someone decided that you could stretch the distance between refuges. It reminds me of the man with the donkey who kept reducing its feed and getting the same work out of it, until it died of starvation.


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## wildebus (Mar 10, 2021)

Personally I have thought from day one that they are one of the worst road "improvements" ever come up with and should be scrapped ASAP.

They came with one sole purpose - add road capacity in the cheapest possible way.


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## mark61 (Mar 10, 2021)

I've not checked any data, and doubt I will, but it could be accidents are less on these smart motorways than on an even more congested motorway.

Anyway, my vote would have been for more variable speed limits and hard shoulders used as originally intended.


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## Fisherman (Mar 10, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I've not checked any data,



Why bother Mark, if you had bothered you would only disagree with it.   

Sorry had to go for jt, wide open there Mark,


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## Red Dwarf (Mar 10, 2021)

Are smart motorways smart? No, they’re silly and dangerous.


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## Fisherman (Mar 10, 2021)




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## Tim120 (Mar 11, 2021)

I suppose if you look at most transport systems capacity is usually static or less than max during off peak times, I'm thinking bus, tube, train during what we knew as rush hour or a large event such as Twickenham rugby/concert and the like, packed in like sardines, which is no more than an inconvenience really. A stationary vehicle with traffic approaching at motorway speed and nowhere to go is potentially lethal and has proved to be so.


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## sparrks (Mar 11, 2021)

They are currently down grading the M27 into a 'Smart' motorway I shall use it exactly the same way as I use all 'Smart' motorways and that is I will not use the hard shoulder even if it means my journey takes awhile longer. Most stupid idea and the most inappropriate name.


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## Trotter (Mar 11, 2021)

When they first started altering motorways, I  initially thought, the same as the bean counters at the DOT,what a simple cheap way to increasing road space by 25%.
Of course, what I didn’t take into account, although the bean counters might have,was vehicles with faults stopping on the road, be they badly  serviced, out of fuel, inherent manufactured faults (BMW shutting down errors) or plain stupid drivers failing to read matrix signs, using the roads. Tbh, vehicles don’t often just stop without warning. Time enough to reach a refuge? Probably.
But,there are so many matrix signs left on after a problem has been cleared beggars belief. Is it any wonder, people take the instructions with a pinch of salt.I remember the matrix on the M11 saying that the A120 was closed, hours after a blond US President had landed at Stansted.


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## witzend (Mar 11, 2021)

I feel they should be abolished no matter what safety system is put in place it won't work quick enough. Hasn't anyone started a petition to get them banned yet ?


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## Fisherman (Mar 11, 2021)

witzend said:


> I feel they should be abolished no matter what safety system is put in place it won't work quick enough. Hasn't anyone started a petition to get them banned yet ?












						Smart motorways are a risk to life, says widow suing Highways England over M1 death
					

Plans to roll-out smart motorways across the country have been dealt a severe blow after the widow of a man killed on a notorious stretch of the M1 has revealed she will sue Highways England for corporate manslaughter.




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




The woman in this article campaigns against them 

*Smart motorways are a risk to life, says widow suing Highways England over M1 death





*
Four people have been killed on the M1 smart motorway in just 10 months CREDIT: PA



Steve Bird
31 AUGUST 2019 • 8:00PM

Plans to roll-out smart motorways across the country have been dealt a severe blow after the widow of a man killed on a notorious stretch of the M1 has revealed she will sue Highways England for corporate manslaughter.

_The Sunday Telegraph_ can reveal that four people have now been killed on the M1 in just 10 months after they became stranded then hit by oncoming traffic in a live lane which used to be the hard shoulder.

All the collisions took place after motorists failed to reach a safe lay-by - or Emergency Refuge Area - on a 16-mile northbound stretch of the M1.

In June, Jason Mercer, 44, and Alexandru Murgeanu, 22, became the latest motorists to be killed by oncoming traffic after they pulled over following a minor collision .

Claire Mercer, 43, has accused Highways England, a Government owned company, of failing to provide her husband and Mr Murgeanu with a safe haven or having adequate systems in place to detect a stationary vehicle to close a lane off from fast moving traffic.

The pair were struck by a lorry as they exchanged insurance details near Sheffield.

Mrs Mercer’s decision to speak publicly for the first time follows the discovery of a Highways England report which found drivers were three times more likely to break down in a live lane when the hard shoulder had been removed.

It also revealed CCTV operators took an average of 20 minutes to spot stranded vehicles before closing the lane.






Mrs Mercer, from Rotherham, told _The Sunday Telegraph_: “The smart motorways experiment has failed and should now be scrapped.” She warned how plans to nearly double the length of these motorways from 416 miles to 788 by 2025 will result in more such deaths.

“Removing the hard shoulder robbed my husband and Alexandru of a safe refuge. Police told me the lane was not closed after they became stranded. If it had they would be alive today.”

A Highways England spokeswoman refused to say whether it detected the static vehicles or closed the lane, adding it was inappropriate to comment during a police investigation.

A 39-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and has been released on police bail.

*Widow battling for the truth about safety of smart motorways*
Claire Mercer smiles as she concedes she seems an unlikely expert on the minutiae of England’s motorway network.

Sifting through dog-eared files of Commons transport select committee reports and accident statistics, the 43-year-old buyer for a Sheffield glass furnace company wishes she never needed to have become an expert.

On the morning of June 7, she kissed goodbye to her husband, Jason, who drove in his new company car to his work as contracts manager at a construction company.

“Shortly afterwards I sat at home reading online about this horrific three car crash on the M1,” she said. “He would always message me to say he had arrived safely. I started messaging him saying I was worried because of the bad accident.”

She telephoned police, gave his car registration and was told they were running it through the system in connection with that crash four hours earlier.

“I looked out of the window and saw two officers wearing high-viz jackets walking to my door. I knew.”

her husband of nearly 10 years and Alexandru Mergeanu were killed after they pulled over following a minor collision on the northbound M1 near Sheffield.

Because the hard shoulder had been turned into a fourth lane, Jason Mercer, 44, and Mr Mergeanu, 22, had tucked their cars in against the barrier. There was no nearby lay-by - or ‘Emergency Refuge Area’ (ERA) in Highways England jargon - to shield them from oncoming traffic.






Jason Mercer, 44, died on the M1
“They were doing what they were legally required to do - sharing insurance details,” Mrs Mercer said.

A lorry hit their vehicles and killed Mr Mercer and Mr Mergeanu outright.

“Jason and Alexandru’s deaths proves these motorways are anything but smart,” she said.

“Two people died that day. Two families have been utterly devastated because the hard shoulder had been turned into a live lane. It’s that simple.”

She weeps as she explains how “at least” two others have died on the northbound carriageway of the M1 smart motorway in alarmingly similar circumstances in the space of 10 months.

Last September a 62-year-old female passenger was killed when a Nissan Qashqai she was a passenger in broke down on the M1 near Sheffield. Both she and the driver got out of the car. About 16 minutes later a Mercedes E-class struck the Nissan before it hit the woman, who has not been named.

In March, Derek Jacobs, 83, was killed when his Volkswagen Crafter stopped in the first lane of the northbound M1 in Derbyshire after getting a puncture. His vehicle was struck by a coach and the retired engineer was crushed against a barrier.

Then, Mr Jacobs’s son, Matt, 50, predicted these smart motorway deaths “would happen again and again - but nobody will put two and two together”. His prediction came true.





Alexandru Murgeanu, 22, died on the M1 smart motorway after pulling over following a minor collision
Mrs Mercer, from Rotherham, wants a judicial review to establish whether, as both she and Mr Jacobs’ son believe, there will be yet more deaths because motorists have been “robbed” of the hard shoulder.

Pointing to files of research, she said Highways England and the Government are in the grip of “collective madness” as it rolls out yet more smart motorways. They have promised to nearly double such motorways from 416 to 788 miles by 2025.

Her concern is the majority of the new routes will be so-called ‘All Lane Running’ motorways - where the hard shoulder is transformed into a live or fourth lane.

She wants to prove Highway England’s decision to remove the hard shoulder without providing adequate and efficient protection is a breach of the company’s duty to make motorways safer and consequently corporate manslaughter. 

Picking up a 2016 Commons Transport Committee report she turns to a page in which the Department of Transport is accused of being “disingenuous” in how it presented risks posed by the removal of the hard shoulder.

She said: “If they take away the hard shoulder they must have systems in place that protect motorists. These tragic deaths show those systems have failed repeatedly.”

Smart motorways rely on variable speed limits being imposed from gantries, which can also issue ‘Red X’ signs ordering motorists to move out of a lane if a peril has been detected. Both systems can also raise money for the Treasury through fines for those who fail to heed instructions.

A Motorway Incident Detection and Automatic Signalling system (Midas) monitors congestion and spots stranded cars through CCTV, a radar system and detectors built into carriageways.

Mrs Mercer added: “Police told me the lane had remained open until after they were killed. This means either the safety back-up systems did not detect the two static vehicles or if they were detected it was not spotted in time lane and lane remained open.

“Highways England needs to explain whether the back-up systems failed to save Jason and Alexandru. At best it could be negligent. At worst it may verge on criminal.

“There was no emergency refuge area nearby. Why not? I’ve not heard Highways England’s explanation. ”

Highways England declined to comment on the circumstances surrounding Mr Mercer’s death, explaining it would be “inappropriate” because a police investigation is ongoing. A 39-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving and released on police bail.

A Highways England spokeswoman said: “Our thoughts are with the family and friends of those involved in the incident on June 7.

“Safety is our top priority and we will continue to evaluate all lane running schemes and work closely with all the emergency services to ensure safety is maintained.

“The evidence shows that where all lane running has been introduced, there have been fewer collisions and congestion has reduced despite an increased number of vehicles using them.”

The company insists “evidence indicates” across nine ‘All Lane Running’ motorways the fatality rate has reduced by 28 per cent.

Mrs Mercer fears her husband will one day be among the statistics pored over by other grieving relatives struggling to understand how a loved one was killed on a so-called ‘smart’ motorway.


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## colinm (Mar 11, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> The M42 works, but if you break down you are within sight of an emergency refuge. Unfortunately someone decided that you could stretch the distance between refuges. It reminds me of the man with the donkey who kept reducing its feed and getting the same work out of it, until it died of starvation.


As this, the original idea was frequent refuges, then it was decided to build less of these, also add in that some stretches aren't covered by safety cameras, and you have the present death traps.
IIRC during one of these fatal incidents the lane was open for 30mins after a car broke down.


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## antiquesam (Mar 11, 2021)

colinm said:


> As this, the original idea was frequent refuges, then it was decided to build less of these, also add in that some stretches aren't covered by safety cameras, and you have the present death traps.
> IIRC during one of these fatal incidents the lane was open for 30mins after a car broke down.


Thank you. Your reiteration of my point was more more succinct than my roundabout way of expressing my opinion.


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## vwalan (Mar 11, 2021)

motorways in cornwall are smart.hee hee 
we havnt got any motorways. 
mind even when away from home its much nicer to avoid motorways and have an adventure in the country.


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## molly 2 (Mar 11, 2021)

The first photo shows the  fast lane empty ??? Left hand lane should be part time  opening  when traffic drops to say 40 mph  .trucks that cant stop  fill the slow lanes  .  Time for a big rethink  .


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## Wooie1958 (Mar 11, 2021)

Smart motorways are safe when used correctly it`s the idiots driving on them that are neither smart nor safe.


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## st3v3 (Mar 11, 2021)

Wooie1958 said:


> Smart motorways are safe when used correctly it`s the idiots driving on them that are neither smart nor safe.



There's definitely an element of this. The story above very sad, but stood on the motorway exchanging details? Get over the barrier and out of danger for God's sake!


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## Red Dwarf (Mar 11, 2021)

Wooie1958 said:


> Smart motorways are safe when used correctly it`s the idiots driving on them that are neither smart nor safe.


I don’t see what is safe about having a system where a vehicle can be at a stop on a high speed road. With heavy vehicles legally having to keep to the left, it’s the system that is at fault. Allow vehicles to be stopped in the path of HGVs? Where’s the safe in that?


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## mark61 (Mar 11, 2021)

If a system doesn't allow for a few idiots, it's neither smart nor safe.


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## TissyD (Mar 11, 2021)

Having been sat in the live lane waiting for recovery it is not a good experience. It didn't help with the fact is was raining cats and dogs and we had to stand out in it.


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## Trotter (Mar 11, 2021)

Not sure why you’re sitting in a live lane. The instruction is to leave the vehicle and move to a place of safety. That means the other side of the Armco. .


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## molly 2 (Mar 12, 2021)

When things go wrong how much time is lost before  emergencie  vehicles reach the accident  when lanes are closed  ,   the hard shoulder was a clear root for large emergency vehicles  as well as a refuge for Breakdowns.


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## Robmac (Mar 12, 2021)

Unfortunately another bi-product of being over populated I'm afraid. We do not have room for hard shoulders and have to keep the traffic moving, which is a bit of a catch 22 really because inevitably there will be more accidents and more disruption. Motorways therefore get relegated to the same status as dual carriageways ie. no hard shoulders but maximum national speed limit.

Not good for our hobby really as it's just another reason for legislation to cut down the number of vehicles on the roads - more tolls, higher taxation etc.   

Just my opinion of course.


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## ricc (Mar 12, 2021)

To travel across central southern england you've got two choices at moment a303 which is a mix of single and duel carriageway often at a complete standstill where the duals drop to single or the m27  which is being converted to smart motorway so reduced to 2 lanes with average speed cameras on a 50mph limit which seems to keep moving at the limit.

Does seem the money being spent on m27 would be better spent on finishing  dualling the a303.

Though for those of us not in a hurry there is always the third option of bumbling along country lanes .


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## molly 2 (Mar 12, 2021)

[QUOTE="ricc, post: 1174216, member: 

Though for those of us not in a hurry there is always the third option of bumbling along country lanes .
[/QUOTE]
I think that is an option  that a lot of people  are now taking .. I had one very close shave  the truck I was behind suddenly moved to the right reveiling a  dead truck  in front of me ,  I could have braked hard  and stopped  but the truck following I doubt  could have stopped as quick as me  ,my tupperware van  would have crumbled  like  cream cracker  I just managed  to pull over and miss the dead truck .all the signs showed all lanes open  . Closing lanes  takes far too  .long


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## TissyD (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> Not sure why you’re sitting in a live lane. The instruction is to leave the vehicle and move to a place of safety. That means the other side of the Armco. .


That is the instruction but it doesn't tell you how to get across the other live lanes to the Armco. It is ok if you are already on the first lane. When the hard shoulder is smart lane 1 becomes lane 2 or even 3 as you come towards some junctions,


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## antiquesam (Mar 12, 2021)

The original plan was to have refuges at 500 yard intervals. It is usually possible to nurse an ill vehicle that far to safety, not least because you can see the refuge. When they decided that the distance was going to be 1.5 miles then things are very different.


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## antiquesam (Mar 12, 2021)

ricc said:


> To travel across central southern england you've got two choices at moment a303 which is a mix of single and duel carriageway often at a complete standstill where the duals drop to single or the m27  which is being converted to smart motorway so reduced to 2 lanes with average speed cameras on a 50mph limit which seems to keep moving at the limit.
> 
> Does seem the money being spent on m27 would be better spent on finishing  dualling the a303.
> 
> Though for those of us not in a hurry there is always the third option of bumbling along country lanes .


The A303 doesn't really overlap the route of the M27. The M27 changes to A35 just west of Southampton, which is even worse than the A303. The M27 between Portsmouth and Southampton is one of the busiest motorways in the country and I can see the sense in improving it, but not with the best current policy of 1.5 mile distances between refuges.


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## jann (Mar 12, 2021)

I don't like using them at all. 
Some people don't use the first lane(old hard shoulder)this means they risk being overtaken on the inside. In some areas instead of two lanes of slow moving lorries, there are now three. 

I have seen a very close miss on the M1  a couple of years ago.I had seen the broken down vehicle on the inside lane and pulled out in plenty of time, the following vehicle left it until the very last minute. Very unnerving to watch


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

TissyD said:


> That is the instruction but it doesn't tell you how to get across the other live lanes to the Armco. It is ok if you are already on the first lane. When the hard shoulder is smart lane 1 becomes lane 2 or even 3 as you come towards some junctions,


In your scenario, no matter what type of motorway you’re on, you’re screwed.
And a breakdown, as opposed to a collision, doesn’t just _happen._ You’ll usually have a bit of notice. Time enough to pull over, and possibly reach the refuge. Not possible in nose to tail traffic. I accept, but then surrounding traffic would see the problem. These fatalities, I understand, occur when , folks have been stopped for a little while, and then someone with their thumb up their bum plows into them. If you get to the refuge, or out of, and away from the vehicle , you’ll ensure your safety. Again, I accept there’s a time factor here.
Just random thourghs.


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## Wully (Mar 12, 2021)

First time I went to America I thought the laws of the road were mad but after visiting for a few years and getting used to the overtaking or undertaking on motorways it  seems to let the traffic flow better. We have too many tubes sitting in middle lane doing between 40 50 miles an hour and if you come up on the inside lane at 55 you have to move right across to fast lane to pass these muppets I’ve noticed this more in England than in Scotland drivers doddering along in middle the lane with no consideration or thought of what’s going on around them. The undertaking thing definitely seems to help the traffic flow.


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## mark61 (Mar 12, 2021)

Wully said:


> First time I went to America I thought the laws of the road were mad but after visiting for a few years and getting used to the overtaking or undertaking on motorways it  seems to let the traffic flow better. We have too many tubes sitting in middle lane doing between 40 50 miles an hour and if you come up on the inside lane at 55 you have to move right across to fast lane to pass these muppets I’ve noticed this more in England than in Scotland drivers doddering along in middle the lane with no consideration or thought of what’s going on around them. The undertaking thing definitely seems to help the traffic flow.


Undertaking is allowed in some situations according to highway code.


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Undertaking is allowed in some situations according to highway code.


According to the RAC , it’s not illegal, but would be considered as “ careless driving “ in court.


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## RichardHelen262 (Mar 12, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Undertaking is allowed in some situations according to highway code.


It wasn’t allowed by the police when I got done for it about 15 years ago on the m1, I was only doing about 60 mph in the middle lane overtaking trucks in the left hand lane when I came across a car in the third lane that was only doing about 50mph so I just carried on at my speed in my lane undertaking him, next thing their was a plain silver BMW with blue lights telling me to pull over onto the hard shoulder, when I pointed out that the car in the third lane was only doing about 50 he agreed that the driver was wrong for driving so slow in the third lane, but it was no excuse for me to undertake.
3 points and a £60 fine I got the message


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## mark61 (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> According to the RAC , it’s not illegal, but would be considered as “ careless driving “ in court.


 I think they use a term like "Undertaking recklessly".


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

I’ve only ever been done for speeding. Last time was 33 mph. £60 and 2 hours listening to some jobs worth. So I’m no expert on traffic law. I do think that there’s a bit difference between Careless and Reckless


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## mark61 (Mar 12, 2021)

RichardHelen262 said:


> It wasn’t allowed by the police when I got done for it about 15 years ago on the m1, I was only doing about 60 mph in the middle lane overtaking trucks in the left hand lane when I came across a car in the third lane that was only doing about 50mph so I just carried on at my speed in my lane undertaking him, next thing their was a plain silver BMW with blue lights telling me to pull over onto the hard shoulder, when I pointed out that the car in the third lane was only doing about 50 he agreed that the driver was wrong for driving so slow in the third lane, but it was no excuse for me to undertake.
> 3 points and a £60 fine I got the message



I was always under the impression it was not allowed, and pretty sure that was the case when I started driving.. Obviously barring when the M ways are very congested.

It is allowed now though, in certain circumstances, and has been for a fair few years. 

I don't make the rules, I just read them.


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## RichardHelen262 (Mar 12, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I was always under the impression it was not allowed, and pretty sure that was the case when I started driving.. Obviously barring when the M ways are very congested.
> 
> It is allowed now though, in certain circumstances, and has been for a fair few years.
> 
> I don't make the rules, I just read them.



it isn’t allowed but when you have trucks In the left lane doing 55mph and some nob in the third lane doing 50mph but a clear middle lane and your doing 60mph what are you supposed to do ?


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## TissyD (Mar 12, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> The original plan was to have refuges at 500 yard intervals. It is usually possible to nurse an ill vehicle that far to safety, not least because you can see the refuge. When they decided that the distance was going to be 1.5 miles then things are very different.


When we broke down  it was the gearbox ceased and if I hadn't banged the clutch in quick we would gone from 50to zero in a matter of yards.


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## mark61 (Mar 12, 2021)

RichardHelen262 said:


> it isn’t allowed but when you have trucks In the left lane doing 55mph and some nob in the third lane doing 50mph but a clear middle lane and your doing 60mph what are you supposed to do ?


 Wait, in that case. 
or do what the Germans do.


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## TissyD (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> In your scenario, no matter what type of motorway you’re on, you’re screwed.
> And a breakdown, as opposed to a collision, doesn’t just _happen._ You’ll usually have a bit of notice. Time enough to pull over, and possibly reach the refuge. Not possible in nose to tail traffic. I accept, but then surrounding traffic would see the problem. These fatalities, I understand, occur when , folks have been stopped for a little while, and then someone with their thumb up their bum plows into them. If you get to the refuge, or out of, and away from the vehicle , you’ll ensure your safety. Again, I accept there’s a time factor here.
> Just random thourghs.


Unfortunately there was no,previous warning it literally went bang. If there had been hard shoulder I could have at least rolled onto it. They insisted that motorways had hard shoulders when the M1 had First opened and a lorry driver was killed on the First night.


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## Fisherman (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> In your scenario, no matter what type of motorway you’re on, you’re screwed.
> And a breakdown, as opposed to a collision, doesn’t just _happen._ You’ll usually have a bit of notice.



Sorry Trotter but that is not the case, three times in the past 20 years I have had sudden problems on roads with absolutely no warning. Twice on motorways and once on the A80 between Glasgow and Cumbernauld. Two of the incidents involved tyres blowing out and loss of control. But my worse experience was on the M8 eastbound whilst I was heading for Hamilton. My engine literally blew up leading to a loss of power, vision as the smoke blinded me, I also lost power for brakes and power steering. My car then needed a new engine and gearbox. It turned out that 6 weeks earlier I had went through a puddle and without knowing it I had hydrauliced (their term) my engine. This damaged a con rod which gave way whilst I was doing 70mph on the outside lane whilst overtaking. I was fortunate the other drivers seen what had happened and kept out of my road whilst I tried to get to the hard shoulder. When I did get there at approx 40-50 mph I tried to break but I had lost all hydraulic power. I gradually applied the handbrake and brought my car to a stop. At this point I was still blinded with the smoke coming from the engine.


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> In your scenario, no matter what type of motorway you’re on, you’re screwed.
> And a breakdown, as opposed to a collision, doesn’t just _happen._ You’ll usually have a bit of notice. Time enough to pull over, and possibly reach the refuge. Not possible in nose to tail traffic. I accept, but then surrounding traffic would see the problem. These fatalities, I understand, occur when , folks have been stopped for a little while, and then someone with their thumb up their bum plows into them. If you get to the refuge, or out of, and away from the vehicle , you’ll ensure your safety. Again, I accept there’s a time factor here.
> Just random thourghs.


Should I have underlined the word * USUALLY *


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## Fisherman (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> Should I have underlined the word * USUALLY *



Trotter I was not having a go, just training to put forward a POV.
I noted your usually, but I have not found in my experience that I usually have had no  notice when things are about to go wrong. They have all came about suddenly with no warning whatsoever. Smart motorways are in my honest opinion dangerous that’s why I started this thread to debate them.


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## Fisherman (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter I spent most of my working life in the fire service and sadly I witnessed some horrible accidents, and many of them on our motorway system. But fortunately I never had to deal with “smart motorways “, the thought of having to try to get to people with no hard shoulder in what would become a traffic jam scares me. These people in these accidents had no idea that they would end up dead, or in hospital when they stepped into their vehicles at the start of their journeys.


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## mark61 (Mar 12, 2021)

I think I've only broken down and had to use the hard shoulder once in about 20 years. You lot need to maintain your vehicles better and stop buying dodgy tyres,   

I know exactly what's going to happen now, next time I'm on an M way.


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## QFour (Mar 12, 2021)

They said that they would be monitored so that they can change the lane signs to warn drivers BUT then Highways England admits that they are not always monitored. Have a look HERE If they are not monitored and something goes wrong what are you supposed to do if you finish up in a live lane. Even the AA and RAC don't want to work in them. Don't blame them really. Risk assessment would fail for a start.

Having ventured out the other day I was amazed how the lorries have taken over the first two lanes. Cars now seem to drive in the outer two lanes and don't move over.


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

Please don't think I'm a fan of Smart Motorways. I'm not.
But I can see the need for them, or rather something like them. I believe we live in the most populated country in Europe. We are still in Europe?  We certainly have more vehicles per sq km. than elsewhere.
Policed, and used _properly_ they _should_ work. I remember hearing a recording of a motorist talking to the Emergency service, begging for help, immediately before impact. That's the moment I knew that I, and the DOT bean counters had got it wrong.
AFAIK, the only answers to the current traffic problems are:- , Smart motorways, more motorways, less traffic or longer grid lock of our roads.
I'm glad it's not me who has to decide.


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## Fisherman (Mar 12, 2021)

Trotter said:


> Please don't think I'm a fan of Smart Motorways. I'm not.
> But I can see the need for them, or rather something like them. I believe we live in the most populated country in Europe. We are still in Europe?  We certainly have more vehicles per sq km. than elsewhere.
> Policed, and used _properly_ they _should_ work. I remember hearing a recording of a motorist talking to the Emergency service, begging for help, immediately before impact. That's the moment I knew that I, and the DOT bean counters had got it wrong.
> AFAIK, the only answers to the current traffic problems are:- , Smart motorways, more motorways, less traffic or longer grid lock of our roads.
> I'm glad it's not me who has to decide.



I agree Trotter, fortunately in Scotland we don’t have your type of smart motorways, we don’t have the same problems you have in England, which is the most densely populated country in Europe. For me smart motorways rely on everyone doing the right thing, and everything running perfect, there is no latitude for human error. Also most accidents and breakdowns occur with very little or no warning, making it impossible in most cases to take the actions required to mitigate as much as possible any consequences. And I also post on a fire service forum, and some of the comments on there are scary. Bottom line they are anything but smart, and they have and will cost lives. The question is are the risks and loss of life acceptable for the benefits they offer in terms of reducing congestion. I think not, but others may disagree. But what angers me is I reckon the term smart motorways is deliberately misleading and for obvious reasons.


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## Trotter (Mar 12, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I agree Trotter, fortunately in Scotland we don’t have your type of smart motorways, we don’t have the same problems you have in England, which is the most densely populated country in Europe. For me smart motorways rely on everyone doing the right thing, and everything running perfect, there is no latitude for human error. Also most accidents and breakdowns occur with very little or no warning, making it impossible in most cases to take the actions required to mitigate as much as possible any consequences. And I also post on a fire service forum, and some of the comments on there are scary. Bottom line they are anything but smart, and they have and will cost lives. The question is are the risks and loss of life acceptable for the benefits they offer in terms of reducing congestion. I think not, but others may disagree. But what angers me is I reckon the term smart motorways is deliberately misleading and for obvious reasons.


I agree wholeheartedly. Your point about risks carry the most weight. . Someone will have to make that decision.


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## wildebus (Mar 12, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I agree Trotter, fortunately in Scotland we don’t have your type of smart motorways, we don’t have the same problems you have in England, which is the most densely populated country in Europe. For me smart motorways rely on everyone doing the right thing, and everything running perfect, there is no latitude for human error. Also most accidents and breakdowns occur with very little or no warning, making it impossible in most cases to take the actions required to mitigate as much as possible any consequences. And I also post on a fire service forum, and some of the comments on there are scary. Bottom line they are anything but smart, and they have and will cost lives. The question is are the risks and loss of life acceptable for the benefits they offer in terms of reducing congestion. I think not, but others may disagree. But what angers me is I reckon the term smart motorways is deliberately misleading and for obvious reasons.


When I see the term "Smart Motorway" I am always reminded of the Govt dept "NICE" - and how they say the C and E stands for "Care Excellence" but many decisions show it really mean "Cost Effective".


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## Fisherman (Mar 13, 2021)

wildebus said:


> When I see the term "Smart Motorway" I am always reminded of the Govt dept "NICE" - and how they say the C and E stands for "Care Excellence" but many decisions show it really mean "Cost Effective".



Their inappropriate use of euphemisms to hide the reality of what is actually staring us all in the face is actually quite appalling. Why were hard shoulders on motorways thought of as essential when first designed, and what in reality has now changed that allows for them to be removed. You could argue that more traffic makes hard shoulders even more necessary. Yes technology has improved, but that technology is not designed or sufficient to replace hard shoulders, it’s there to support them. In effect what they have done is to use improvements in technology to compromise our safety on motorways. In Scotland we use technology to support our safety, now that’s smart in my view.


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## Trotter (Mar 13, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Their inappropriate use of euphemisms to hide the reality of what is actually staring us all in the face is actually quite appalling. Why were hard shoulders on motorways thought of as essential when first designed, and what in reality has now changed that allows for them to be removed. You could argue that more traffic makes hard shoulders even more necessary. Yes technology has improved, but that technology is not designed or sufficient to replace hard shoulders, it’s there to support them. In effect what they have done is to use improvements in technology to compromise our safety on motorways. In Scotland we use technology to support our safety, now that’s smart in my view.


Why were hard shoulders thought essential. Ernest Marples was the Minister of Transport, also MD of Marples Ridgeway.
Someone had the contract to build motorways. Put a bit extra on the bill? 
Someone retired to Monaco. There could be a connection?


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## mark61 (Mar 13, 2021)

Thats an interesting point about why they were though essential when M way were first designed. I seem to remember years ago, you wouldn't go fat up a M way without seeing a Morris Minor or Austin Cambridge sitting on hard shoulder, can go many miles these days without seeing stuff on the shoulder. Without the hard shoulder though, things can go very wrong very quickly. 
Our hard shoulders are huge compared to most european countries, certainly glad I've not need to use those either. Too narrow for emergency services to use.


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## antiquesam (Mar 13, 2021)

In the early days of the M1 there was no central reservation barrier and people just turned around, but then there wasn't a speed limit either


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## Trotter (Mar 13, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Thats an interesting point about why they were though essential when M way were first designed. I seem to remember years ago, you wouldn't go fat up a M way without seeing a Morris Minor or Austin Cambridge sitting on hard shoulder, can go many miles these days without seeing stuff on the shoulder. Without the hard shoulder though, things can go very wrong very quickly.
> Our hard shoulders are huge compared to most european countries, certainly glad I've not need to use those either. Too narrow for emergency services to use.


Narrow emergency lane. 
No, not wide enough to stop safely. But possibly far enough off of the carriageway to allow an oncoming vehicle to ease over into the next lane without causing to much mayhem?


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## mark61 (Mar 13, 2021)

Whats too much mayhem? Moving out the way to allow emergency vehicles through is far from mayhem, waiting an extra 15 minutes to be cut out of a car may well be considered mayhem. 

There are probably many reason why UK roads, while being the busiest are also among the safest in europe. Hard shoulders will be one of those reasons.


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## Trotter (Mar 13, 2021)

Don’t know what too much mayhem is tbh. _*NOT *_too much mayhem, is not making a difficult situation worse. Simples.


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## Robmac (Mar 13, 2021)

The hard shoulder is interesting in Russia.

Often used for undertaking at 80 in the snow!


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## mark61 (Mar 13, 2021)

Robmac said:


> The hard shoulder is interesting in Russia.
> 
> Often used for undertaking at 80 in the snow!


 The few they have in Morocco are used to do a U turn and go back to the junction you've just missed.


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## TeamRienza (Mar 13, 2021)

Do other European nations have smart motorways, and if so how are they constructed and operated?

Davy


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## Fisherman (Mar 13, 2021)

mark61 said:


> Whats too much mayhem? Moving out the way to allow emergency vehicles through is far from mayhem, waiting an extra 15 minutes to be cut out of a car may well be considered mayhem.
> 
> There are probably many reason why UK roads, while being the busiest are also among the safest in europe. Hard shoulders will be one of those reasons.



Putting my fire service hat on again Mark, I can assure everyone that hard shoulders have saved thousands of lives. On the few occasions that we could not use them, what was a very difficult job, became an impossible job, and folk died because of that.


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## antiquesam (Mar 13, 2021)

TeamRienza said:


> Do other European nations have smart motorways, and if so how are they constructed and operated?
> 
> Davy


Most European motorways have a very narrow strip along the side of the carriageway that you could stop on if desperate with refuges every so often, but then most European motorways are only two lane.


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## RoadTrek Boy (Mar 13, 2021)

Robmac said:


> The hard shoulder is interesting in Russia.
> 
> Often used for undertaking at 80 in the snow!



Yes, but the drivers are usually 3 sheets on Vodka or drugs. (that maybe a requirement for driving over there. )


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## mark61 (Mar 13, 2021)

RoadTrek Boy said:


> Yes, but the drivers are usually 3 sheets on Vodka or drugs. (that maybe a requirement for driving over there. )


 By far the worst driving I've seen in europe is in Lithuania and Latvia, not by locals but drivers from Belarus and Russia and being the corridor between Kaliningrad  and Russia, the roads are full of Russain vehicles. Top spec luxury saloons and exotic sports cars, the drivers must think they are on an unrestricted German autobahn, must have paid off all the local police too. Still, they tend to lose out when meeting an artic.


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## yeoblade (Mar 13, 2021)

I would be more in favour of the mainland Europe narrow but continuous emergency lane over none i.e. 'Smart' m'ways. Watching videos footage of cars driving down the closed lane with a big  RED  X  flashing above the closed lane! A few more ANPR generated fines may make non observers (inpatient drivers) think twice.


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## st3v3 (Mar 13, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Most European motorways have a very narrow strip along the side of the carriageway that you could stop on if desperate with refuges every so often, but then most European motorways are only two lane.



I'm not sure if compulsory or just common practice in France, but a broken down vehicle on the shoulder would prompt traffic to move from lane 1 to 2 well in advance. I've started doing that here too.


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## antiquesam (Mar 13, 2021)

French motorways aren't as busy as ours. Here you inevitably have someone sitting on your back offside wheel trying there damnedest to keep you where you are


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## mark61 (Mar 13, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'm not sure if compulsory or just common practice in France, but a broken down vehicle on the shoulder would prompt traffic to move from lane 1 to 2 well in advance. I've started doing that here too.


 I think more people are doing that these days, mainly larger vehicles.
I wouldn't recommend it to MH drivers though, will take them two hours to get back in lane 1


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## Robmac (Mar 13, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'm not sure if compulsory or just common practice in France, but a broken down vehicle on the shoulder would prompt traffic to move from lane 1 to 2 well in advance. I've started doing that here too.



Something my dad taught me to do when he taught me to drive when I was 14.


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## yeoblade (Mar 13, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I'm not sure if compulsory or just common practice in France, but a broken down vehicle on the shoulder would prompt traffic to move from lane 1 to 2 well in advance. I've started doing that here too.


I believe that is the requirement in the Sates too.


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## Pedalman (Mar 14, 2021)

Tim120 said:


> Absolute death traps if broken down.


Smart motorways are absolute madness , the people who thought it was a good idea needs a private padded cell that they can rot in.
Even with hard shoulders we were always told not to sit in our cars in case of collision,  so how they thought a lay-by every half a mile is safe is beyond belief.

I wonder how many deaths will it take before they scrap them ?


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## Tim120 (Mar 14, 2021)

Four lane smart motorway.
From now on think I'll trundle along in either lane 2 or three at whatever speed feels comfortable for me, not the person I'm towing on a short rope, and do my best to leave a safe distance between myself and the vehicle in front.
If something stops in the lane I'm travelling in at least I'll have two possible exit routes.
Now makes total sense when someone is poodling along in the middle lane without a care in the world and being undertaken, overtaken, tailgated and harrased, shown the middle finger etc.


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## ptulley (Mar 15, 2021)

Dule carriageways with a crash barrier are 70mph and do not have a hard shoulder, I feel that the accidents on the motorways around our cities is more down to driver error (bad driving!) and the lack of traffic police.


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## yeoblade (Mar 16, 2021)

*Go left! We launch our biggest ever motorway safety campaign*


See they're listening to us 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Go Left ! Clicky


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## TissyD (Mar 16, 2021)

yeoblade said:


> *Go left! We launch our biggest ever motorway safety campaign*
> 
> 
> See they're listening to us
> ...


 That is only if you are in the inside lane.


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## molly 2 (Mar 17, 2021)

yeoblade said:


> *Go left! We launch our biggest ever motorway safety campaign*
> 
> 
> See they're listening to us
> ...


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## Tookey (Mar 17, 2021)

ptulley said:


> Dule carriageways with a crash barrier are 70mph and do not have a hard shoulder, I feel that the accidents on the motorways around our cities is more down to driver error (bad driving!) and the lack of traffic police.


Agreed, but as human error is commonplace I don't think it's an good argument not to have a hard shoulder. The same argument would see machine guards removed so the user could work faster, the machine was cheaper and loss of fingers/limbs or death was just part of the industry.


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## mark61 (Mar 17, 2021)

I wonder if standards are dropping with the test. Seems like now it's ok to sit in traffic, lights, etc with foot on brake and not use handbrake and crossing hands is ok in test too. Sure that wasn't the case years ago.


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## Tookey (Mar 17, 2021)

***** said:


> If sitting at lights with foot on brake and some idiot shunts you from the back end, your vehicle will shoot forward much more than if hand brake on


I had never considered this and will endeavour to change my lazy habit


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## Deleted member 56601 (Mar 17, 2021)

Thing I notice a lot are vehicles waiting to cross on-coming traffic with their wheels already angled into the turn. A shunt from the back would push them into the on-coming traffic, instead of straight on.


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## Tookey (Mar 17, 2021)

Edina said:


> Thing I notice a lot are vehicles waiting to cross on-coming traffic with their wheels already angled into the turn. A shunt from the back would push them into the on-coming traffic, instead of straight on.


Jeez, another bad habit to break


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## TissyD (Mar 17, 2021)

We have got a Smart car and the stop start technology cuts the engine as soon as you stop at the lights but, if you put the handbrake on, it kicks straight back in when you take your foot off the brake pedal. I was taught to always put the handbrake on when you come to a stop and put the car in neutral. I did have good teacher though, my Dad,  he worked for BSM with a 97%pass rate.


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## antiquesam (Mar 17, 2021)

In 1975 I got a job that came with a company car. The company sent me to BSM for a check test. I remember the discussion at the end. He told me that the speed limit was 30mph, that when you come to a junction it's wise to stop and look and that the gadget between us was called a handbrake and that it should be used occasionally but I wasn't a bad driver. They then sent me Edinburgh for a four week training course with three exams  before giving me a brand new Vauxhall Viva. Wow.


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## yeoblade (Mar 17, 2021)

***** said:


> If sitting at lights with foot on brake and some idiot shunts you from the back end, your vehicle will shoot forward much more than if hand brake on


Why is this the case, with a car having 4 braked wheels with footbrake and only 2 with handbrake applied, Or does the shunt shock you in to releasing the foot brake?


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## yeoblade (Mar 17, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I wonder if standards are dropping with the test. Seems like now it's ok to sit in traffic, lights, etc with foot on brake and not use handbrake and crossing hands is ok in test too. Sure that wasn't the case years ago.


If I was in Government I would have a 'Check up Driving test' every ten years. But then if that was my policy I wouldn't have made it to Government


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## Fisherman (May 18, 2021)

*BIKER BRANDS SMART MOTORWAYS AS ‘DEATH TRAPS’ AFTER HORROR M6 CRASH*

A biker has called out so-called smart motorways after being involved in a crash that means he’ll have to learn to walk again.






A biker involved in a motorcyclists’ worst nightmare has called smart motorways a ‘death trap’ after he was involved in a crash that left him with life-changing injuries.

Jack Gallowtree was travelling on the M6 from Manchester last month when the incident occurred. He was riding in lane four of the motorway when he felt every biker’s worst fear. His bike began to lose power with what felt to Jack like a carb problem.

With his bike losing power and speed, Jack made for the inside lanes and the supposed safety an emergency refuge. When he got to lane two, Cheshire Live reports that the lane that should have been the hard shoulder on a conventional motorway was filled by two HGVs.

Taking his chance, he didn’t want to slot in between the two lorries or behind them, Jack moved the bike over to the left side of lane one and positioned his bike as close to the barrier as possible. It’s at this point his bike began to buck and weave, and it’s unknown if he touched the verge on the inside or debris that caused him to slide for an estimated 300 yards at around 60mph.

Speaking to Cheshire Live, Jack said:

"I had just enough distance ahead of these lorries to be able to move across in front them to get onto their far side, without them causing to abruptly break or potentially putting myself in a way that I would end up under their wheels.

"I moved across to the far left of their lane, so I was right on the edge of the tarmac and the dirt to try and allow them to still pass and I could roll to a halt and be able to be as safe as possible on those roads."

As a result of the crash, Jack has sustained multiple, serious injuries including losing a section of his tibia, smashing his kneecap, and damaging the bones behind. The crash has left one leg shorter than the other, meaning he will have to learn to walk again and likely will never have the same mobility.



*Smart Motorway*






*The growing call to ban smart motorways*
Having first-hand evidence of how dangerous smart motorways can be for all road users but motorcyclists, in particular, Jack is now joining a growing number of people calling for them to be banned in the UK.

A post on his facebook reads:

_‘Please go and sign this petition as it’s a smart motorway that almost took my life last week but instead has left me with life altering injuries in the hospital. There is nothing smart about these motorways given they remove the safety measures on the busiest stretches of motorway in the country whilst increasing capacity therefore danger. This has resulted in an insane rise in the death toll on motorways and have claimed many lives leaving some to escape to live another day. These death traps need to be gone

Please share this to every nook and cranny of face book too and encourage everyone you can to sign.’_



https://www.visordown.com/news/gene...motorways-‘death-traps’-after-horror-m6-crash


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## TeamRienza (May 18, 2021)

I am not a biker, but I have signed it as I am in total agreement. Might be worth a seperate thread/post to rustle up a few more signatures.

Davy


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## maingate (May 18, 2021)

mark61 said:


> I wonder if standards are dropping with the test. Seems like now it's ok to sit in traffic, lights, etc with foot on brake and not use handbrake and crossing hands is ok in test too. Sure that wasn't the case years ago.


Those that do not have their foot on the brake seem to be holding it on the Clutch for long periods.  

We don't go far these days but see plenty of tossers almost on a daily basis.


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## Goggles (May 18, 2021)

TeamRienza said:


> I am not a biker, but I have signed it as I am in total agreement. Might be worth a seperate thread/post to rustle up a few more signatures.
> 
> Davy


I’ve signed it but because I think they’re stupid and dangerous but it still needs a lot more signatures.


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## Goggles (May 18, 2021)

Goggles said:


> I’ve signed it but because I think they’re stupid and dangerous but it still needs a lot more signatures.


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## st3v3 (May 18, 2021)

yeoblade said:


> , Or does the shunt shock you in to releasing the foot brake?



Kind of, the car rapidly moves forward but the lump of meat behind the steering wheel doesn't move as fast.


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## Fisherman (May 18, 2021)

I signed it because regardless of driving ability these smart motorways are only there to save money, and are being paid for by death and injury to drivers. Driving ability had nothing to do with what happened to this young man, it was caused by mechanical failure. Any system that does not take into consideration the possibility of human error which we all suffer from, is a poor system In my honest opinion.


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## Tookey (May 18, 2021)

Signed


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## witzend (May 19, 2021)

Signed as well








						Petition: Ban Smart Motorways
					

Reverse the introduction of Smart Motorways and do not create any more.




					petition.parliament.uk


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## hextal (May 19, 2021)

very short-term approach to cost saving.  Modern road structures are typically designed for 120 years lifespan, which should (should) get you 60ish years before major works to it.  Smart motorway structures are typically designed with 30yr lifespan, on the basis that the technology that it carries only has a 5-10 year lifespan.  Electronics have a habit of being more 'glitchy' than structures, so need far more interventions, which is tougher when there's no hard shoulder. 

The issue is similar to with rail infrastructure is that there really aren't that many other ways to increase capacity.  However, there's something of a further irony in that a number of locations were already well in excess of the European air pollution limits, so couldn't take more traffic anyway - which is why a number of the sections started dropping to 50mph in order to try to fudge that part of it.


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## Tim120 (May 19, 2021)

Signed too. Also will let my M.P. know as requested and many others.


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## molly 2 (May 19, 2021)

Another problem  with smart motorways are the very short  entrance slipways


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## trevskoda (May 19, 2021)

WE had bus lanes installed here, but a new sign up today that bus lane has been canceled from sandyknows r about to Belfast slip, no hard shoulder.


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## David & Ann (May 20, 2021)

Smart Motorhomes have been going for donkey of years, at least 30+ years in Germany to my knowledge. It helps to reduce congestion during peak hours and are run during those times. Accidents are caused due to folks not abiding by the rules or not paying attention or that the system is not fully functional and reliable due to lack of knowledge by the people who have set up the system.


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## trevskoda (May 20, 2021)

Smart motorhomes.


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## TissyD (May 20, 2021)

David & Ann said:


> Smart Motorhomes have been going for donkey of years, at least 30+ years in Germany to my knowledge. It helps to reduce congestion during peak hours and are run during those times. Accidents are caused due to folks not abiding by the rules or not paying attention or that the system is not fully functional and reliable due to lack of knowledge by the people who have set up the system.


Most problems on motorways are caused by people not following the rules or not concentrating but no amount of information boards can help if you break down until it has been reported and the signs put on and that still relies on people abiding by them.


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## Fisherman (May 20, 2021)

David & Ann said:


> Smart Motorhomes have been going for donkey of years, at least 30+ years in Germany to my knowledge. It helps to reduce congestion during peak hours and are run during those times. Accidents are caused due to folks not abiding by the rules or not paying attention or that the system is not fully functional and reliable due to lack of knowledge by the people who have set up the system.


The example and other examples I could give had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone not following the rules. This young mans motorbike had a mechanical issue, and had no hard shoulder to head to leading to yet another awful accident caused by this smart system. 
Any system that fails to take sufficient account of human error or lack of experience is bound to lead to accidents and death. These smart motorways add substantially to the risk of serious accidents. We are all guilty of losing concentration when driving, particularly driving long distances on motorways.


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## Wully (May 20, 2021)

I think It would be a good idea if there were an electronic swing out arm kept at an angle so as to limit any damage but force you into second lane it could be made of plastic or something similar highly visible and high enough to be seen by a car but low enough to make a van or or an HGV have move into second lane and if clipped would just swing out of the way it would get the drivers attention this could be placed along inside lane at certain intervals between these refuge areas and be deployed electronically using camera and censors when a car is stopped on the inside lane. It’s just a thought I know this would bring up other issues but they have to do something these things are death traps I get a shiver down my spine just thinking about breaking down on one.


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## Fisherman (May 20, 2021)

Wully said:


> I think It would be a good idea if there were an electronic swing out arm kept at an angle so as to limit any damage but force you into second lane it could be made of plastic or something similar highly visible and high enough to be seen by a car but low enough to make a van or or an HGV have move into second lane and if clipped would just swing out of the way it would get the drivers attention this could be placed along inside lane at certain intervals between these refuge areas and be deployed electronically using camera and censors when a car is stopped on the inside lane. It’s just a thought I know this would bring up other issues but they have to do something these things are death traps I get a shiver down my spine just thinking about breaking down on one.



Wully was on the committee who set up smart motorways, and is an ardent follower of the smart motorways philosophy


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## Wully (May 20, 2021)

Ok then my second idea don’t use inside lane at all and if you think your gonna break down do it in the middle two lanes at  least that leaves the twats behind you two ways to get round or out of the way.  geen myself a sare  heed wae this yin.


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## yeoblade (May 20, 2021)

Wully said:


> I think It would be a good idea if there were an electronic swing out arm kept at an angle so as to limit any damage but force you into second lane it could be made of plastic or something similar highly visible and high enough to be seen by a car but low enough to make a van or or an HGV have move into second lane and if clipped would just swing out of the way it would get the drivers attention this could be placed along inside lane at certain intervals between these refuge areas and be deployed electronically using camera and censors when a car is stopped on the inside lane. It’s just a thought I know this would bring up other issues but they have to do something these things are death traps I get a shiver down my spine just thinking about breaking down on one.


Automatic deployment of a Stinger would slow offenders down.


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## trevskoda (May 20, 2021)

Worst bit is if you lose power in the overtaking lane and cannot get too hard shoulder, happened to me once many years back and I had a big laundry bill.


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## mark61 (May 20, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Worst bit is if you lose power in the overtaking lane and cannot get too hard shoulder, happened to me once many years back and I had a big laundry bill.


Is that why you got a truck that won't be in the overtaking lane.


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## David & Ann (May 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> The example and other examples I could give had nothing whatsoever to do with anyone not following the rules. This young mans motorbike had a mechanical issue, and had no hard shoulder to head to leading to yet another awful accident caused by this smart system.
> Any system that fails to take sufficient account of human error or lack of experience is bound to lead to accidents and death. These smart motorways add substantially to the risk of serious accidents. We are all guilty of losing concentration when driving, particularly driving long distances on motorways.


There are sensors every 100 metres along the hard shoulder being used as a lane during peak hours. If a vehicle stops for any reason the sensors detect it and the Road closed sign lights up with arrows directing you to the next lane, the lane becomes a hard shoulder again and avoids accidents. I have lived in Germany for 45 years and I think, not sure, there were only a handful of mishaps when the system opened, now there are none.


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