# Electrobloc EBL99 standard vs. gel charger setting.



## Sharpie (Sep 9, 2019)

I've had to replace my two AGM habitation batteries, and after research chose the 12v 90AH Varta LFD 90 from Alpha Batteries, with the forum discount, due to be delivered tomorrow.

Also researched the charger in my Electrobloc EBL99 and discovered that on the standard setting it only charges at up to 16A to 14.3 V, maintains 14.3V for one hour, then drops to a float voltage. This suggests to me that at best it will only put about 16Ah into the batteries. (minus whatever goes into the starter). That doesn't seem like anything enough.

Whereas on the gel setting it still only puts out 14.3V, but sustains it for eight hours I think. That seems rather better to me, potentially fully replenishing the bank (I am particular about trying never to drop below 50% discharge) but would there be any downside to just using the gel setting permanently, even just for topping up ? It would be a fiddle to have to change the setting back to standard for that.

I also suspect that my AGM batteries were never getting a full charge, 14.3V being far too low, and only for one hour before it dropped to a float voltage, which might explain a few things.

Alternatively should I fit a better charger, there is space next to the Electrobloc, and a socket on it to connect one. If so, what would be recommended ?

Thank you for any advice.


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## maingate (Sep 10, 2019)

If your EBL only charges for one hour then it must be a very old one and should be binned anyway.


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## bazzybabes (Sep 10, 2019)

Have a look at this website, it covers all things to do with camper electrics and batteries:

Motorhome/Caravan Servicing, repairs for most Battery Chargers

In particular the reference to Schaudt Elektroblock:

Schaudt Elektroblock EBL 99 Repairs at PS130 including VAT. EBL 100, EBL101, etc

Sadly, Allan has passed away, but Martin will be glad to help you.


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## maingate (Sep 10, 2019)

bazzybabes said:


> Have a look at this website, it covers all things to do with camper electrics and batteries:
> 
> Motorhome/Caravan Servicing, repairs for most Battery Chargers
> 
> Sadly, Allan has passed away, but Martin will be glad to help you.



It seems that his EBL is working fine but it is an older model which only charges for one hour before dropping to a float charge. This could be confirmed if the OP gave a few more details on the model and age of his van.


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## colinm (Sep 10, 2019)

IIRC when using AGM batteries they are normally set to Gel (might be wrong), whatever a EBL99 seems to get the batteries up to charge eventually. AFAIK many chargers nowadays are using lower voltages to avoid damage to batteries.


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## trevskoda (Sep 10, 2019)

If changing to bosch/varta ditch the old mains charger and fit numax h/duty multi stage with a extra tap of for starter.


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## Sharpie (Sep 10, 2019)

maingate said:


> If your EBL only charges for one hour then it must be a very old one and should be binned anyway.



It is the standard EBL99. Original equipment on my late 2010 Globecar Globescout. I don't consider it old. It was a popular unit, and must still be giving reliable service in thousands of vans.

Of course there have been continuing product improvements since then, but I've studied the block diagrams of the latest versions and little has actually changed, the original architecture was well thought out. 

I am an electronics engineer, but specialised in a different field. I'd not troubled to learn about this stuff previously, just assumed that Globecar/Dethleffs/Schaudt knew what they were doing and it was as good as it gets. Assuming that it "just works" Seems not.

The chargers have become more sophisticated, as expected, just as battery technology has moved on, together with knowledge of how best to use lead acid technology, and the deficiencies of AGM have become apparent. At the time they were supposed to be the best thing, but that seems to have turned out to be hype.

The integral charger is the LAS 1216, rated at 16A. It starts off charging at full current, or at least as much as the batteries can accept, until 14.3 V is reached, then it either does a 1 hour "equalisation charge" at 14.3 V (standard setting), or for 8 hours (gel setting). It can only charge up to 14.3V This is adequate for wet cells, but not ideal for gel, or AGM, which really need higher voltages to charge them properly. After that fixed time it drops back to 13.8V float, which is a maintenance level but not enough to put in any more significant charge.

Sorry if I was unclear. 

The 1 hour vs. 8 is the period during which final percentage of charge goes into the battery once it has reached 14.3V. As soon as the voltage falls back to 13.8V, little additional charging will happen. From some things I have read, 1 hour at 14.3V isn't long enough to top up a battery completely. Hence my query.

Just as 14.3V is not high enough to properly charge AGMs, which should never have been fitted originally. They are not compatible, even on the 8 hour gel setting. The gel setting is also not really compatible with gel cells, they also need a higher charging voltage. All the setting does is extend the charge to 8 hours, which might squeeze some more in, but never fully charge them. I suspect it was bodged on. To my mind the charger is only really suitable for wet cells, which I have now. I'm hoping that it will do a better job with these.

My query is whether my new Varta LFD90 batteries (wet cell), or other such things, would be damaged by regular exposure to 8 hours at 14.3 V. I don't see why they should, this is similar to what they will be getting from the alternator, for as many hours as the engine runs, just as the starter battery does. They are dual use, rated as a good starter battery (actually I also replaced my nine year old one (not complaining at that) with the same Varta, standardisation, so it's been an expensive £300 month). Hence why I want to maintain them as best I can.

The Vartas are claimed to have a unique gallery with catalyst, together with lead metallurgy that eliminates gassing under all normal usage, basically sealed, so suitable for un vented installation, essential for my van where they are fitted beneath the driver's seat. No venting tubes (unless I drilled holes in the floor). Nevertheless they came with both gas ports plugged, and a stern warning that one should be removed before use. For backside protection I guess, in case things go wrong.

Installing them requires taking the seat off, including disconnecting the wiring to the seatbelt tensioner pyrotechnics , then the seat swivel, so they have to be fit-and-forget. Slightly worrying when putting it all back together, Re-connecting the seatbelt wiring particularly. It's a big job that requires some non-standard wrenches to fit into very restricted access, that I'm not looking forward having to do again. Goodness knows what a dealer would charge to do it.

Interestingly the OEM starter battery has no obvious venting arrangement, and is a traditional wet one with screw plugs that allow you to inspect electrolyte levels and top up if necessary. Still, it's fitted in a semi-sealed well, albeit inside the van. Fiat must think that's good enough. Would still have preferred to see a vent tube going outside the van.

I realise that there are more sophisticated chargers nowadays, but I would prefer not to have to buy one to add on to the existing Electroblock even though it is already set up with the connections for it. If I can make do with what I've got and not abuse my new batteries I'll be happy. My EBL is working just well as the day I bought the van. It's just that I now know more about its strengths and weaknesses now. I'm certainly not going to bin it.

Succinctly, should I select the gel setting in preference to the standard setting to ensure a full charge with my modern wet cell batteries ? Would there be any downside to this ? Or would it really be worth the cost of adding a more sophisticated charger (an easy job, the EBL has a socket to just plug one in). Bearing in mind that my new batteries cost £200 for two, even if they don't last quite as long on the EBL charger, how many years would it take to break even and recoup the (I'm guessing steep) costs of adding a new charger, rather than just changing the batteries a little sooner ?

FYI, these are the characteristics of the LAS 1216 charger:


Battery charging ...
... on mains supply
camping battery:
charging characteristic * IUoU
maximum charging voltage * 14.3V
charging current * 16A within mains supply range, electronically limited
floating voltage * 13.8V (automatic change-over)
new charging cycle
(change-over to boost-charge) * if battery voltage < approx. 13.8V (approx. 5 sec delay)
3-phase characteristic:
* boost-charge at 16A
(arithmetic mean, electronically limited)
up to maximum charging voltage,
* then equalize-charge at constant 14.3V
(selectable: 1h duration for lead-acid,
8h duration for lead-gel batteries),
* then automatic change-over to float-charge at 13.8V
If due to high loads the 13.8V floating voltage can't be provided the battery charger switches
over from float- to boost-charge after a delay of approx. 5 sec.

...

starter battery:
charging current * trickle-charge of starter battery with max. 2A


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## Sharpie (Sep 11, 2019)

bazzybabes said:


> Have a look at this website, it covers all things to do with camper electrics and batteries:
> 
> Motorhome/Caravan Servicing, repairs for most Battery Chargers
> 
> ...



Thanks, that's where I did a lot of my research. Very useful information, freely given. Sad news. My EBL 99 seems to be in fine fettle, touch wood. If it ever conks out I'll know where to go.


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## Sharpie (Sep 11, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> Thanks, that's where I did a lot of my research. Very useful information, freely given. Sad news. My EBL 99 seems to be in fine fettle, touch wood. If it ever conks out I'll know where to go.



Oops, haven't go hang of how this forum works yet, I was responding to bazziebabes helpful input. Cheers,


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## maingate (Sep 11, 2019)

Hi Sharpie.

I am a bit surprised that a 2010 van was still using the standard EBL99. If my memory serves me well, a later version (EBL99G?) had a 4 hour period of full charge rather than the 1 hour time period. Other versions of the EBL were becoming common around that time which gave a 4 hour full charge period.

Your battery type should be fine on the Gel setting (I have just been on the late Allans website to refresh my memory). Another course of action when off grid would be to allow the 1 hour full charge then switch off the engine and restart, which would give you another hour of full charge.

My previous Burstner had the EBL99 fitted, charging 2 x 110 amp batteries @ 16 amps and putting a 2 amp float charge into the engine battery. I fitted a Schaudt 1218 Solar Regulator (with the conversion kit for the EBL to charge the engine battery from solar) and only once had a problem with low battery level (3 days of Fog and rain). If you do not have Solar fitted, I would recommend it. Solar keeps the batteries maintained to a higher voltage and you don't get the deep discharges that count as 'cycles' and contribute to battery degradation. I just use Numax batteries which are not as good (apparently) as the Bosch or Yuasa but I get 5 years use from them before they show signs of failing. Of course this will not be as much use help to you if you regularly use a large inverter and cane the batteries.


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## brucews (Sep 11, 2019)

*Venting*

Sharpie, my globecar campscout 2012 still has original starter battery and there is a vent tube that comes out of the battery tray below the van; perhaps the tube dropped off?


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## colinm (Sep 11, 2019)

Sharpie, our 2011 Globecar has the EBL99 (not sure if there are different mk's of these), combined with a 85w solar panel(connected straight to LB) it has worked well enough for us apart from solar not charging the VB. This week I'm part way throu replacing the 8y.o. Banner AGM with two 75ah Varta's, am awaiting a few parts to finish which I didn't order until getting the seat off and seeing what was what. My only issue was lifting the seat as I'm awaiting a operation, so I had help, which worked out really easy by dropping table to bed height covering and putting seat on there, all tools came straight out my tool bag. The only reason we are upping capacity (by approx. 50% to 150ah) is because we now have two electric bikes to charge, otherwise I would have just replaced with a 90ah Varta.
https://i.imgur.com/zxpJuJv.jpg


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## Nabsim (Sep 11, 2019)

Martin at the link given is very helpful and knowledgeable about all the EBL units. I got a lot of goid info from him when I was trying to figure out what I had and what I needed. Emails are usually responded to in 24 hours.


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## UFO (Sep 11, 2019)

Interesting thread.

My 2009 Adria Twin has the Schaudt Electrobloc EBL 208 S E.

In 2013 I fitted a 140W solar panel connected to the Electrobloc via a Schaudt LR 1218 Solar Charge Regulator, which also charges the vehicle battery.

At the same time I replaced the small fitted gel battery with 2 x Alphaline 12v 125AH, Marine, Caravan, Leisure batteries.  The Electrobloc is switched to ‘Lead-Acid’.

In five years we have had no battery problems, our power usage is minimal – lights (mainly LED), heater fan, water pump, vehicle radio (which I rewired to the leisure battery) and charging devices, so the setup is probably over-engineered.  Just measured the voltages - leisure batteries 14.10v and vehicle battery 14.07v.


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## trevskoda (Sep 11, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Sharpie, our 2011 Globecar has the EBL99 (not sure if there are different mk's of these), combined with a 85w solar panel(connected straight to LB) it has worked well enough for us apart from solar not charging the VB. This week I'm part way throu replacing the 8y.o. Banner AGM with two 75ah Varta's, am awaiting a few parts to finish which I didn't order until getting the seat off and seeing what was what. My only issue was lifting the seat as I'm awaiting a operation, so I had help, which worked out really easy by dropping table to bed height covering and putting seat on there, all tools came straight out my tool bag. The only reason we are upping capacity (by approx. 50% to 150ah) is because we now have two electric bikes to charge, otherwise I would have just replaced with a 90ah Varta.
> https://i.imgur.com/zxpJuJv.jpg



The solar panel cannot be wire direct to batt,it must have a regulator to set voltage and ensure no over charging.


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## colinm (Sep 11, 2019)

trevskoda said:


> The solar panel cannot be wire direct to batt,it must have a regulator to set voltage and ensure no over charging.



Sorry, that should read 'direct to battery via PWM regulator' , as opposed to wired into EBL


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## trevskoda (Sep 11, 2019)

colinmd said:


> Sorry, that should read 'direct to battery via PWM regulator' , as opposed to wired into EBL



Thats ok but things have moved on .


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## Sharpie (Sep 11, 2019)

maingate said:


> Hi Sharpie.
> 
> I am a bit surprised that a 2010 van was still using the standard EBL99. If my memory serves me well, a later version (EBL99G?) had a 4 hour period of full charge rather than the 1 hour time period. Other versions of the EBL were becoming common around that time which gave a 4 hour full charge period.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I've decided to use the gel setting and see how that goes.

My Globecar was the display model from the Autumn 2010 NEC show, kitted out with every possible option, only delivered from Germany the previous week, under 50 miles on the clock. The Electroblock manual that came with it is for the EBL99 with LAS 1216 so I assume  that this is what I have, it is labelled EBL 99, no suffix. Later versions had the LAS 1218 charger which is improved, and I think still current, but I don't think I have that, having experimented with a multimeter to see what's going on. I do seem to have only 1 hour at 14.3 V on standard setting. The basic LED display doesn't even read above 13.5 V, so is pretty useless. I have a plan to add a little digital display to give me precise readings instead of fiddling with the multimeter.

When driving, the EBL is just a split-charge relay. Once the engine is running and the alternator voltage is high enough, the habitation batteries are simply connected to the alternator (actually the starter battery) directly through the relay via a 50A fuse. There are no clever electronics in the loop. The absorption fridge is also fed from this and can take a hefty current as well. I think that this is still the way most modern EBLs still work.

Fiat don't over-size their alternators, just running the engine, powering the massive radiator and aircon fans in hot weather, and all the rest of the body, takes a lot. Neither are the alternators designed to push out their headline figures continuously. They are a peak rating, not continuous, based on moderate air temperatures, and are de-rated when the air gets hotter, though you have to delve deeply to discover that. It's surprising how well they actually work, or at least survive.

I've also learned that the bonding straps between alternator/engine/gearbox/chassis on the Ducato can be a weak point and subject to deterioration so I'll be taking a look at mine later.

Drive around in mountainous regions, in 40C plus temperatures, slowly climbing mountain passes, all fans blasting, puts a big strain on everything. It's what I like to do. That's before considerations of also supporting the habitation bank. Anything that goes in there is a bonus. Engine compartment temperatures (also alternator cooling air) become very high, you can burn your hands opening the bonnet at the summit to try to let things cool down a little.

I don't usually have a problem keeping the starter battery charged, the van gets regular runs. Yes the Ducato has heavy parasitic drain that can flatten it in a month, but if laying up there is an isolator switch fitted in the compartment for just this purpose, part of the connection to the positive terminal. Seems not to be widely known.

It's not much trouble to lift the lid and disconnect it. Only complication is that my van is a left hand drive chassis with the steering wheel on the right. The passenger door is central locking only, no key, and opening it is the way to access the starter battery hatch, so you have to close it and central-lock it, leaving the hatch open before isolating, then leave through the drivers door with key lock.

Otherwise you can't lock the passenger or sliding doors, or retract the electric step (I wish they would put a manual crank on these in case of failure, they are pretty ropey at the best of times). Also a good reason to always check that the starter battery is OK before opening one of the central-locking-only doors from the inside. If it is flat you can't lock the doors until it is fixed. Why couldn't they just put a key lock on all doors ?

My worst case usage is wildcamping or otherwise off-hookup in winter (ski resorts etc.) when the Truma Combi  heating is used all night at low level. When skiing or otherwise sub-zero it has to be left on 24/7 to avoid total freeze-up. I can manage two or three days of this being frugal with the other drains whilst not exceeding 50% discharge. I don't think solar would be much help in winter, even if the panel wasn't covered in snow, so I have a small quiet generator which I can run for a while to put back some charge, whilst also charging up the laptops, phones, tablets, even cooking on the Remoska.

In ski resorts there is sometimes a designated period in early evening for generator use. There is no other practical option. Spoke with several people with Efoy fuel cell set-ups who were disappointed, regretted their expensive purchases, the rip-off prices for the methanol, and were using their little generators once more.

The generator was a godsend when the original Banner AGMs failed. Previously had seemed fine, no issues for the first week of the trip, then suddenly completely dead, no gradual degradation. Wildcamping midwinter in Scotland, parked by a beach in a bay. So cold that the sea froze hard enough to walk on the next morning, at least 10 yards out (we bottled it after that). The generator ran all night, sipped very little petrol, and kept the Truma operating. We had to rely on the Kipor for the rest of the trip, it is an essential for me.

I do have a 185 watt solar panel which I bought in an early fit of enthusiasm, but have not fitted it, having realised that in summer I don't need it, I use very little electricity, usually moving on every few days between Aires or wild camping, or on ACSI sites which include at least 7A hookup. And in winter it would be of little benefit. Plus it would eat into my payload allowance and add further complexity, which I try to avoid.

As it is, with 48 kilos of batteries under the drivers seat, I am perilously close to the plated front axle limit despite every attempt to move the mass rearwards. I looked into re-plating from 3.3 to 3.5 tonnes, but that would be a pointless expensive paper exercise, axle limits would remain the same. It's the front axle limit of 1750 kg on the 3.3 tonne chassis that is the problem, not the total mass. Having a 125 litre fuel tank up front doesn't help either, I very rarely brim it, that would give me a 1000 mile range, a pointless bonus option on my van, I don't want to lug around up to 100 kilos of diesel, never mind the expense of a complete fill-up.

My inverter is a little 300W job, only used briefly for charging or powering the few bits of kit that don't use 12V. Nevertheless it could draw 30A fully loaded. I'd say that is as much as is sensible, I don't have a need for kilowatt class inverters. Nor could my batteries support such load for long, and it would be brutal to even try. Besides, my little generator can do that, where circumstances (noise) allow.

If I was unfortunate enough to have a compressor fridge, certainly good solar would be top of my list. Otherwise, for my usage, I don't need it, as nearly nine years of experience has shown me.


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## maingate (Sep 11, 2019)

A smaller lightweight solar panel would solve the dreaded Fiat engine battery drain for you, something like an 80 or 100 watt panel. It would also act as a leisure battery maintainer. You could even buy a folding, freestanding panel and fit a plug and socket connection to get solar power whenever convenient. I have a 100 watt panel on the roof and carry a plug-in 90 watt panel for when conditions are poor. It is rarely needed but is useful. 

I still have the EBL wiring adaptor here from my last van. I swapped the LR1218 over to the new van and Allan Evans  supplied me with the wiring needed to connect it to my Reich Ebox system. If it is any use to you, you can have it for the price of the postage. It will put a solar charge into your engine battery as well as the leisure batteries. It is simplicity itself to fit. I could have offered you the LR1218 as well but I am close to another Medical to retain the C1 on my licence. I don't want to spend money on an MPPT regulator for the van if I fail the Medical and have to downsize or pack in motorhoming.


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## Sharpie (Sep 12, 2019)

colinmd;1024073 said:
			
		

> Sharpie, our 2011 Globecar has the EBL99 (not sure if there are different mk's of these), combined with a 85w solar panel(connected straight to LB) it has worked well enough for us apart from solar not charging the VB. This week I'm part way throu replacing the 8y.o. Banner AGM with two 75ah Varta's, am awaiting a few parts to finish which I didn't order until getting the seat off and seeing what was what. My only issue was lifting the seat as I'm awaiting a operation, so I had help, which worked out really easy by dropping table to bed height covering and putting seat on there, all tools came straight out my tool bag. The only reason we are upping capacity (by approx. 50% to 150ah) is because we now have two electric bikes to charge, otherwise I would have just replaced with a 90ah Varta.
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/zxpJuJv



Somebody, in their wisdom, at Dethleffs fitted the drivers' seat and the swivel using permanent threadlock.

My good neighbour saw me struggling and came to my assistance, he is a vehicle mechanic with every tool you could imagine, mostly Snap-On.

The seat is bolted to the swivel, on the top are the heads of the bolts, only accessible with a cranked Allen key, the nuts are below, again only accessible with a spanner, not a socket. My B+Q key just twisted and chewed up, I feared for the heads of the bolts but thankfully the key (made of cheese ?) had sacrificed itself, the threadlock onto the nuts was that strong. My Halfords spanners (their best ones, the fancy sort that engage on the flats, not the corners) were beginning to chew up the nuts as well. My neighbour's tools were made of stronger stuff and fitted precisely, even so we needed an extension tube on his key, and a long spanner on the nut to crack them.

Then we got to the swivel, six glued in torx bolts to remove. My puny Lidl torx socket just shattered once I had applied my long handle extension. He applied a serious impact driver usually used for taking wheel nuts off lorries, with his impact-rated bit. All or nothing. Which was successful.

It could all have gone horribly wrong, that unnecessary threadlock was a PITA.

I learned that day why professionals buy quality tools.

It should be smoother this time, but still a hassle. I usually enjoy working on things, but I'm not looking forward to this job. Booked my neighbour to help again, he's much younger than me and I've found that lugging 24kg batteries about and lowering them into very tight spaces, trying not to snag the other wiring under the seat (its very tight under there), is nowadays right at the limit, or beyond, my strength. Just unpacking the three (Alpha really do pack them well) then shifting them about to fully charge them up in readiness exhausted me and my back is suffering.

The passenger seat hasn't been off yet, but I anticipate much the same again. The Electroblock lives under it, and from what I can see the seat and swivel would have to come off to remove it, if that was ever necessary.

Once LiFePO4, or whatever (NiFe is also making a come-back) become slightly more affordable and proven good, I'd convert in an instant. So many benefits, but I still think it's early days before real life usage confirms the remarkable promises, and sifts out the good ones from the perhaps less good. Lots of people having a go at making them, maybe using the same cells, but they are reliant on complicated invisible embedded battery management systems, some of which will be better than others.

There is also an issue at low temperatures, not even sub-zero, Lithium technologies don't work well when it gets chilly.

As an electronics engineer working in mil-aerospace I distrust complicated power electronics built to consumer standards, so try to avoid them in personal life.

Meanwhile I'm hoping that my third set of new wet cells will do better than my previous two sets of AGMs, which frankly have been a disappointment. Actually the second set, Alpha own-brand, out-performed the original Banners by far, at half the price.


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## Sharpie (Sep 12, 2019)

maingate said:


> A smaller lightweight solar panel would solve the dreaded Fiat engine battery drain for you, something like an 80 or 100 watt panel. It would also act as a leisure battery maintainer. You could even buy a folding, freestanding panel and fit a plug and socket connection to get solar power whenever convenient. I have a 100 watt panel on the roof and carry a plug-in 90 watt panel for when conditions are poor. It is rarely needed but is useful.
> 
> I still have the EBL wiring adaptor here from my last van. I swapped the LR1218 over to the new van and Allan Evans  supplied me with the wiring needed to connect it to my Reich Ebox system. If it is any use to you, you can have it for the price of the postage. It will put a solar charge into your engine battery as well as the leisure batteries. It is simplicity itself to fit. I could have offered you the LR1218 as well but I am close to another Medical to retain the C1 on my licence. I don't want to spend money on an MPPT regulator for the van if I fail the Medical and have to downsize or pack in motorhoming.


That is a most kind and generous offer. I'll send you a PM (if I can work out how to do so).

My partner has been diagnosed with an illness which won't improve, medical license on annual renewal, lost her grandfather rights for bigger, but still allowed 3.5 tonnes, and towing. If/when the day comes, I'll have to do all the driving, which will be tiring for me and frustrating for her. Downsizing needn't be so bad, I think some drag around a lot of clutter, when a modest little van like mine would be more manageable for just two people, and less of a worry for all sorts of reasons.

Fingers crossed for you.


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## Sharpie (Sep 12, 2019)

brucews said:


> *Venting*
> 
> Sharpie, my globecar campscout 2012 still has original starter battery and there is a vent tube that comes out of the battery tray below the van; perhaps the tube dropped off?



Interesting. Definitely no tube ever fitted, nor any hole to poke it through. Perhaps Fiat changed their minds post my 2010 model.

My starter was still working in reasonable temperatures after nearly nine years, but obviously long past its best. It absolutely has to be in top condition for my usage in all temperatures. Failure to crank the engine in some of the places I camp would be a disaster, getting help a real struggle. I've even considered making arrangements to temporarily connect the habitation bank to the starter with jump leads, or a permanent connection with an isolator switch, just in case.

Meanwhile I'll just have to trust that my new Vartas really don't gas. Not that there would be any way of topping them up if they did. They don't even have the "magic eye" that the sealed starter on my car has. Actually I did consider fitting one of these for the starter, but decided to standardise on the Vartas, which on-paper seem to be a very strong starter battery, as well as a good habitation one. Seems too good to be true, but that's what I have gone for. Fingers crossed.


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## maingate (Sep 12, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> That is a most kind and generous offer. I'll send you a PM (if I can work out how to do so).
> 
> My partner has been diagnosed with an illness which won't improve, medical license on annual renewal, lost her grandfather rights for bigger, but still allowed 3.5 tonnes, and towing. If/when the day comes, I'll have to do all the driving, which will be tiring for me and frustrating for her. Downsizing needn't be so bad, I think some drag around a lot of clutter, when a modest little van like mine would be more manageable for just two people, and less of a worry for all sorts of reasons.
> 
> Fingers crossed for you.



My problem is that some of the clutter is 3 Whippets and 1 Jack Russell.  I have got your PM and will find the cost of postage then get in touch with you.


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## Sharpie (Sep 12, 2019)

maingate said:


> My problem is that some of the clutter is 3 Whippets and 1 Jack Russell.  I have got your PM and will find the cost of postage then get in touch with you.



I too have a dog (22 kg northumbrian flat coat collie), extremely intelligent, occasionally will-full, who is usually content in his bed under the table, but when it's just him and me prefers the passenger seat, or the driver's when left alone guarding the van, even though he's really too big to fit. He absolutely loves travel and all new experiences. Somehow everyone seems to like him, even the none-doggiest. We think we have room for the next dog too (he's getting on), just trying to decide what it's to be. All of our dogs have been rescues, we'd like a young one that current dog could bring on and teach it his impeccable manners.


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## colinm (Sep 14, 2019)

I'm guessing your van is very similar, or same set up at front as our 2011 Campscout, RHD cab, LHD rear, which AFAIK all UK Globecar's bar one have been.
Whilst it is easier to get VB out the passenger door, it can still be accessed from between the seats.
To remove a seat leave it attached to swivel and unbolt swivel from frame, this will involve swivelling seat to access the various bolts and leaving the 'stop bolt' till last undoing that with a 20mm open ended spanner.


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## Sharpie (Sep 14, 2019)

Update and corrections:

After four hours hard graft the new batteries are in. It went more smoothly this time.

I did discover a vent hole in the starter battery tray. But no vent tube, so one is in the post.

But the great news is that the EBL99 is an 18A version, now that I've actually studied the front panel carefully. So much for the manual provided which is for the 16A version. I was sure it was only giving the absorption charge at 14.3V for one hour, but perhaps I mislead myself and saw what I expected to see. I'll be checking again.

No further details obviously apparent, suffix or part number, it seems there are versions A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,K AND OVP. Will try to contact Schaudt next week to try to find out exactly what I've got, and the correct manual.

From what I can discover, the 1218 charger gives 4 hours absorption for wet batteries, 16 hours for gel. So I'll be using the wet setting. 14.3V is not high enough for AGM, maybe accounting for my disappointment with the previous two AGM sets, they may never have received a full charge. Should be fine for gel.

I found this document informative and succinct. I'll be cautious now about leaving the van plugged in continuously on my drive, it seems 13.8V float is indeed a little too high so could degrade them over time.



			https://www.centurybatteries.com.au/content/documents/battery-talk/issue-2-battery-talk-battery-charging.pdf
		


Feeling more confident, now that I have changed to wet cells.

Many thanks for all the good advice.


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## Sharpie (Sep 14, 2019)

colinmd said:


> I'm guessing your van is very similar, or same set up at front as our 2011 Campscout, RHD cab, LHD rear, which AFAIK all UK Globecar's bar one have been.
> Whilst it is easier to get VB out the passenger door, it can still be accessed from between the seats.
> 
> To remove a seat leave it attached to swivel and unbolt swivel from frame, this will involve swivelling seat to access the various bolts and leaving the 'stop bolt' till last undoing that with a 20mm open ended spanner.



Yes, that's the arrangement on mine.

I'm no longer limber enough to relish releasing the cover from the inside, easiest from the passenger door. Also easiest for flipping the hab. battery isolator on the Electroblock, under passenger seat, at the same time. Close door. Then enter cab from  drivers side, plip the locks closed from inside, one grovel laying in the aisle between seats to spring off the earth connection, exit via. drivers door, lock with key. Well that'works for me and isn't so much effort (2p piece kept handy in glovebox for twisting the cover catches, and reminder of how to re-set clock, can never remember). Trip meter and fuel consumption data also lost, so take a note before isolating if you like to monitor these things, as I do.

Another minor emuggerance, the bonnet release catch is behind the passenger door, so you have to open it to open the bonnet to get to the jump start connection under there. Is that any different on true RHD vans ?

Which seems very weak, never had any success with that the one time I needed it, even with the heaviest jump leads and a donor vehicle that could have started a tank. Maybe I have an earth strap issue. Got it going after running engine on donor for 15 minutes so it's alternator pushed in just enough charge to turn it over. Jump leads direct to starter battery would probably have worked straight away but that wasn't possible the way I was parked. If unsuccessful you might be left with a passenger door that you can't lock.

These LHD/RHD hybrids don't seem to have been properly thought through, with regards to the locking arrangements. Even wondering how difficult it might be to put in a key lock on the passenger side. I'd like one on the sliding door too, but that's probably asking too much.

Even the drivers door lock is eccentric, the lock turns the opposite way to the rear doors (drivers door turning the wrong way compared to the usual, maybe also a result of the "conversion")

I can now see how taking off the seat with swivel could work. Combined they would be a heavy lump, but if I ever have to do it again I'll give it a try. Would make re-connecting the seat wiring more manageable, pulling through those cables with the big yellow connector to the front of the compartment the way I did it after the swivel was fitted, was a challenge both times. Do-able but only in a precise route. Your way I'd just have to tape them to the swivel in the right place, lower everything, and re-plug. Thanks. The four rear swivel-seat bolts (one being the "stop bolt), were much easier to remove this time, standard tools, no impact wrench required.

By the way, the stop bolt comes out with a suitable 20mm socket from the top, rather than an open ended spanner from the side. Doesn't look as if it would, but it does, less risk of chewing it up, the flats are pretty minimal, not like standard nuts and bolts.

My friend reckoned they may have been one-time use with pre-applied threadlock, but we copperslipped them last time and they came out this time without difficulty. Maybe not recommended, these are critical for crash safety.


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## colinm (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> reminder of how to re-set clock, can never remember).


I ran all last winter on CET summer time.



> Another minor emuggerance, the bonnet release catch is behind the passenger door, so you have to open it to open the bonnet to get to the jump start connection under there. Is that any different on true RHD vans ?


I think they are all the same.



> These LHD/RHD hybrids don't seem to have been properly thought through, with regards to the locking arrangements. Even wondering how difficult it might be to put in a key lock on the passenger side. I'd like one on the sliding door too, but that's probably asking too much.


The only real differance is a LHD you can access bonnet catch, a RHD has the same problems.




> I can now see how taking off the seat with swivel could work. Combined they would be a heavy lump, but if I ever have to do it again I'll give it a try.


As per my first post, lower the table to bed position, remove seat cushion from dinette seat, put cardboard or similar on top, swivel passenger seat half way and it's a easy job for two people to lift drivers seat across, could have probably done it myself but gf won't let me lift anything with my dodgy hip.




> My friend reckoned they may have been one-time use with pre-applied threadlock, but we copperslipped them last time and they came out this time without difficulty. Maybe not recommended, these are critical for crash safety.



Took mine out with 'pro' 1/4 drive socket set, they where tight, but never felt at anytime anything was going to go wrong.


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## Sharpie (Sep 19, 2019)

Update:

After a few days testing, I am now more confident that my EBL 99 18A is charging my new wet batteries satisfactorily. Haven't significantly discharged them yet, so it's early days.

I was puzzled to see that, on float, the hab. batteries were registering off the top of the scale (13.5 V) on the basic LED panel, (expected, float is 13.8V) but the starter battery only 12.7V

Studied the EBL schematic, and that now makes sense. The starter battery trickle charge circuit is simply a resistor to notionally limit current to I think 2A or so peak, in series with a reverse blocking diode to prevent a low starter draining down the hab. batteries too. Actual value measured at the terminals was 12.85V.

That diode, if silicon rather than a better Schottky, will be dropping at least 0.6 V, combined with the volt drop across the current-limit resistor, that accounts for the discrepancy. I'd have designed it differently, using a constant current driver, but hey-ho it's ,simple, inexpensive, only two passive parts to go wrong. It's not really a charger, more a maintainer. If your starter gets low you'll either need to drive for a while, or better connect a proper charger directly to it. Don't expect the EBL to do any significant charging.

I also measured parasitic drain, my Ducato takes a constant 70 milliamps. Newer ones with much more electronic kit might take more. Might not sound much, but simplistically that's enough to completely deeply discharge a nominal 90 Ah battery in about 54 days, a less fresh one sooner. I wouldn't want to let the starter go below 75%, so I'll be isolating it if foreseeing it standing longer than say a fortnight. Short runs around town may not put back in what the starter motor used either, so I'll be keeping a close eye on it.


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2019)

Sharpie said:


> but the starter battery only 12.7V
> 
> Studied the EBL schematic, and that now makes sense. The starter battery trickle charge circuit is simply a resistor to notionally limit current to I think 2A or so peak, in series with a reverse blocking diode to prevent a low starter draining down the hab. batteries too. Actual value measured at the terminals was 12.85V.
> 
> That diode, if silicon rather than a better Schottky, will be dropping at least 0.6 V, combined with the volt drop across the current-limit resistor, that accounts for the discrepancy.



Are you saying the discrepancy between 12.7 and 12.85? if so the the panel will only show 12.7v until the voltage reads 
≥13v,


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## Sharpie (Sep 19, 2019)

The discrepancy is that I was expecting starter and hab. batteries to both be getting the EBL float voltage, nominally 13.8 V

Which the hab. batteries are. Checked with multimeter (actually a litlle bit off, slightly on the low side, but that's actually good, current thinking is that 13.8V is a little high for wet cells). 

The basic monitor panel just has a series of LEDs, the highest indicating 13.5 V or higher, Doesn't tell you anything useful about how the charger is managing the bulk, absorption or float voltages and durations, you need to use a multimeter to monitor that, but does give confidence that it seems to be working.

But the starter battery only ever lit the 12.7V LED after two days on hookup. The next one up is 13.0V, so it was indicating well enough. Somewhere in-between the two. That's why I checked it, on the terminals, and saw 12.85V. That's beginning with a fully charged battery (I charged all three  with a really good charger before fitting them, they were sitting at 12.45V as delivered which was not great, rested them for a day then they were sitting at 12.7V or so, which is spot-on). So I am convinced that the maximum the starter will ever float at on hookup is 12.85V, which is probably adequate.

As for the trickle "charger" for the starter in the EBL, I can't imagine anything more crude, just a resistor and a diode cobbled on to the main charger supply. You might hope that it would do what the spec. implies, i.e charge up the starter fully at say 2A maximum, then float at  suitable voltage, but fat chance of that. If it's run low, but the hab. batteries haven't, its the hab. batteries that will control the bulk and absorption times, which will be far too short to put any meaningful charge into the starter. Then it will switch to float, only 12.85V maximum (for a fully charged starter, if not fully charged even less). That's not going to inject any more meaningful charge no matter how long you leave it.

.As I said, just think of it as a maintainer, not a charger.

FWIW the sequence of LEDs on the indicator is:

11.0V red, warning symbol.
11.5 red
12.0 green
12.2 green
12.5 green
12.7 green
13.0 green
>13.5 green.

I'd say that's incorrect, by 12.0 the battery is pretty much empty, 20% or less, that should also be red.
12.2 should be amber, you could be below 50% discharge by then.
12.5 is generally reckoned to be the lower limit for the maximum recommended 50% discharge limit.

These observations only apply to my EBL 99, possibly things have been improved in newer models. A quick check of the schematics should show you, if there is still just a resistor and diode supplying the starter then I wouldn't expect much difference.

I'll live with it, but tempted to just pull the fuse on the internal charger and connect a better one through the connector provided, together with a small proper charger/maintainer for the starter.


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2019)

OK I see now, in our 2011 van the VB will show as 12.7 or 13 when on EHU, the couple of times I've checked, it has been very close to 13v, the ebl99 is configured to make sure it replaces any lost charge in HB, and expects there to be little loss of VB charge, in normal usage this makes a lot of sense, but if the van has been left for a long time and the VB is discharged it can take days to get it back up to charge.


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