# Beware of the Motorway Gantry Speed Cameras



## Deleted member 9849 (Nov 7, 2016)

With the advent of the ''smart''motorways and the temporary lower speed limit at busy times it follows that speeding fines will increase,and so they have.....
Speeding tickets on 'smart motorways' rise sharply - BBC News

I have been through lots of these overhead gantry speed limits on the motorway and wondered if they were enforceable or whether they were just advisory.I couldn't understand that when I was doing the speed limit through them other drivers were racing past obviously over the limit.Did they have some insider information that the temporary speed limit was just advisory or that the cameras weren't working?

Apparently not as according to the report there has been a big increase in speeding fines from these overhead gantry cameras,it is a compulsory speed limit,the speed cameras are active and you will get fined and points on your licence so be aware.


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## mark61 (Nov 7, 2016)

Don't know why people ignore them. They are an "order" sign backed up by loads of cameras. Hopefully they won't be fining when no limit is shown.


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## mistericeman (Nov 7, 2016)

I struggle to believe that anyone can have missed the advent of smart motorways.... don't speed and you won't get points/fine 

Simples


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 7, 2016)

I`ve absolutely no sympathy at all for the people that get caught on the variable speed limit smart motorways.

Every time we go south the M1 has them lit at different speeds for varying reasons but it still amazes me how many hurtle past as warp factor speeds.

All the information about them is widely available so if people can`t be bothered to look into it then TUFF.

When they are lit the speed showing is *Mandatory* and not just if you feel like slowing down.

Next door but one neighbour got done a year or so back around Birmingham, the gantry showed " *50* ".

Because the motorway was relatively quiet he didn`t see the point in slowing down so he kept going at 76 MPH and that is what speed he got prosecuted for.


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## n brown (Nov 7, 2016)

of course they're enforceable , but still very irritating to be on a quiet motorway and the guy controlling them decides 40 or 50mph might be better as someone is stopped on the hard shoulder or he saw a fox cross the road or just feels like exercising his button finger .
all very well for us law abiding types but infuriating for some. as if we haven't got enough signage to look out for, i'm not sure these things don't make life harder for the beleaguered driver


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## ricc (Nov 7, 2016)

if the limit comes up on a quiet motorway youve just got to assume theres a problem miles ahead and the traffic is being slowed so the problem will have gone away by the time you get there. does wonders for yer blood pressure.... the alternative is a half asleep driver running into the back of stationary traffic at 75mph a few miles further on.


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## winks (Nov 7, 2016)

mark61 said:


> Don't know why people ignore them. They are an "order" sign backed up by loads of cameras. Hopefully they won't be fining when no limit is shown.




Probably default to the national limit. If that's the case most of us would be at risk of getting a ticket.:idea:

Cheers

H


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## mark61 (Nov 7, 2016)

winks said:


> Probably default to the national limit. If that's the case most of us would be at risk of getting a ticket.:idea:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> H



Not got one so far, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they do start using them.


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## Deleted member 58330 (Nov 7, 2016)

and the A9...average cameras.  Dead of night and I have to do 50 in my van on a huge wide road. Not smart really when I can do 70 on a crowded M6 motorway. This is based on the assumption they can relate van weight to the applied 50 limit, anybody been done in a van going over 50 on the A9?


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## maingate (Nov 7, 2016)

I posted a thread recently about coming across a cycle rack (complete with 3 cycles) that came off a vehicle on the A74(M) in Scotland. The speed limit was flashed up at 50 mph but nobody took any notice of them. I backed off my speed at first but then let it creep up a bit. The first warning must have been 10 miles before the incident and was probably the reason drivers ignore the temporary speed limit because they slow for no apparent reason. They discovered their error when a lot of brake lights suddenly appeared in front of them. 

I don't think there are any average speed cameras on that section of road. At least I have not had a ticket for doing 55 mph.


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## Deleted member 58330 (Nov 7, 2016)

maingate said:


> I posted a thread recently about coming across a cycle rack (complete with 3 cycles) that came off a vehicle on the A74(M) in Scotland. The speed limit was flashed up at 50 mph but nobody took any notice of them. I backed off my speed at first but then let it creep up a bit. The first warning must have been 10 miles before the incident and was probably the reason drivers ignore the temporary speed limit because they slow for no apparent reason. They discovered their error when a lot of brake lights suddenly appeared in front of them.
> 
> I don't think there are any average speed cameras on that section of road. At least I have not had a ticket for doing 55 mph.



No, the orange ones on the central verge are advisory....as are the overhead orange spped signs without  a red ring (but always good to heed the warning).  I think it is mandatory though to stop when they flash red.


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## runnach (Nov 7, 2016)

mark61 said:


> Not got one so far, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they do start using them.


 The cams must be calibrated to National speed limits I would think. The weird thing is not every stretch of motorway will be the same, ACPO guidelines have always recommended a margin for inaccurate speedos etc. But the margin varies from force to force. North Wales for example had a zero percent tolerance under Richard Brunstrum as CC.

Re peoples frustrations , I have seen it on the M42 50 mph clear carriageways ahead, and back to nsl. of course it frustrates.

Smart Motorways have just been introduced on the M62 on the West Yorkshire stretch peak times journeys reduced by 5 minutes is the claim. I suppose if you consider truck drivers or those being paid, That 5 minutes adds up to a lot of man hours saved. M62 in the stretch quoted carries 160,000 vehicles per day. £136 million invested, perhaps it will pay ? 

Channa


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## antiquesam (Nov 7, 2016)

I do keep within the speeds but find they make it difficult when they go in a sequence like 50, 60 , 40 within a very short distance. I do think that there may be an incentive to make a few quid by trying to confuse the odd driver. Fortunately not all of the signs are backed up by cameras according to the lady that lives in my TomTom.


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## pughed2 (Nov 7, 2016)

*Take my time*

Fortunately, I have all the time in the world wherever I go, so don't use the motorways very much, and regard all speed limits as helping me to achieve the fantastic mpg figures which I do for a motorhome.......fiat ducato, trigano. tribute 2003 2.3 it's giving over 43mpg diesel, with a top reading this year of 57 mpg in France. The rest of the cash can stay in the bank............oh, and then there's just the little reminder of the 3 small crashes and half wrecked cars as on the M5 hard shoulder down towards Exeter a few weeks back. When some lunatic flashes by in some sporty little job, I do look forward to seeing him wrecked further along.......steve bristol


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## Deleted member 52918 (Nov 7, 2016)

ricc said:


> if the limit comes up on a quiet motorway youve just got to assume theres a problem miles ahead and the traffic is being slowed so the problem will have gone away by the time you get there. does wonders for yer blood pressure.... the alternative is a half asleep driver running into the back of stationary traffic at 75mph a few miles further on.



The amount of signage on our roads is a real danger to drivers, especially when they are set out in a confusing way or they guide you in the wrong direction.

I think they (who ever they are) should be made to standardise all traffic lights, roundabouts, signage & road markings across the country.
When I learned to drive I was told that when instructed to go straight on at a roundabout, I had to take the exit that faced the entry to the roundabout that I was on, which happend to be first left!
But, on the direction sign before the roundabout, the exits were marked at 12 o'clock, 3, 6, & 9 o'clock, which when you consider the fact that on first encountering that junction, you can't know where the exits are except by the signage, gives you no chance to be in the right lane for the exit you want.

Mini roundabouts are another quandery, a friend of mine was fined for not driving his car around the mini roundabout, he clipped it a little on his way round.
I would have contested that fine on the basis that the roundabout is not big enough for all vehicles to negotiate without cutting it in some way, so therefore the police would have to fine every large vehicle that used any mini roundabout in the country!

We follow lane markings only to find that the traffic lights are directing you in different way, we stop at lights & then they don't change in a normal pattern or when you stop at the line you can't see the bloody lights without sticking your head out the side window

Why can't we have the controls in the car in the same place & working in the same way. EG., to flash the lights on most cars you pull the stalk back & let go but on other cars this also activates full beam so you end up blinding the other driver.!

Why can't the indicators be on the same side!!

It's such an obvious safety concern that It's amazing there's no legislation for it!

Ah well, I suppose this should have been in the Rants section.

Phill


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## delicagirl (Nov 7, 2016)

driving in ROI  is a far calmer and less stressful experience  because (outside of large cities)  there are so few road signs.  It made me realise just how  over-signed we are in UK. 

The signs i hate the most are those that belong to the 'bleedin obvious' category  -   a sign at the bottom of a hill showing a hill  -  yes   -  i can see that thanks very much;   signs that repeat the same message only a few yards later;  

Signs now appearing alongside road works with a message about safety for the sake of  the workers families  -  HUH ???


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## antiquesam (Nov 7, 2016)

The people that operate the motorway signs over estimate my knowledge of the UK road network. To tell me that there are delays after to A2043, doesn't really help if I don't know where it is. Similarly, to tell me as I'm going east on M27, that there are delays between junctions 10 and 11 on the M25 is pointless as no one going east would conceivably want to go North on the A3 then clockwise on the M25. Well not knowingly.


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## Ratchet (Nov 7, 2016)

*Smart motorways...... dumb drivers*

They've recently installed average speed cameras with a 50mph limit in my neck of the woods.  

I can't believe how many drivers I see hurtling up to the camera, slow down to 50 as they pass the camera, and then accelerate away like a madman, and repeat the procedure again when they arrive at the next camera............  they obviously have no concept of how average speed cameras actually work


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## Private (Nov 7, 2016)

*70mph speed cameras*



winks said:


> Probably default to the national limit. If that's the case most of us would be at risk of getting a ticket.:idea:
> 
> Cheers
> 
> H



Some camera's do default to normal motorway speed limit when the signs are off.
Old source link below but I've heard it being discussed on radio more recently.

Fortunately going over 70 has never been a worry for me, but I despair at the games they seem to be playing with us when the lower limits are on.

Motorway speed cameras to be rolled out to stop those driving faster than 70mph - Telegraph


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## Deleted member 58330 (Nov 7, 2016)

channa said:


> The cams must be calibrated to National speed limits I would think. The weird thing is not every stretch of motorway will be the same, ACPO guidelines have always recommended a margin for inaccurate speedos etc. But the margin varies from force to force. North Wales for example had a zero percent tolerance under Richard Brunstrum as CC.
> 
> Re peoples frustrations , I have seen it on the M42 50 mph clear carriageways ahead, and back to nsl. of course it frustrates.
> 
> ...




Channa where you been lol, Brunstrom went ages ago. GoSafe operate under 10%plus2 as do NWP....they replied to me under FOI answering the tolerance question I had.


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## runnach (Nov 7, 2016)

MidAgeTraveller said:


> Channa where you been lol, Brunstrom went ages ago. GoSafe operate under 10%plus2 as do NWP....they replied to me under FOI answering the tolerance question I had.



North Wales for example had a zero percent tolerance under Richard Brunstrum as CC.

 I thought the sentence suggested past tense :lol-053:

Channa


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## Private (Nov 7, 2016)

*+ not -*

Speedometers only have a tolerance for plus, not minus. i.e. they can show a speed which is faster than that being travelled at but never slower.

"The UK law is based on the EU standard, with some minor changes. A speedo must never show less than the actual speed, and must never show more than 110% of actual speed + 6.25mph.  So if your true speed is 40mph, your speedo could legally be reading up to 50.25mph but never less than 40mph.  Or to put it another way, if your speedo is reading 50mph, you won’t be doing more than 50mph but it’s possible you might actually only be travelling at 40mph."

Source:
How accurate is your car speedometer? #AskTCE


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## Deleted member 9849 (Nov 7, 2016)

I'm quite pleased that I didn't join the herd that were overtaking me when I was complying with the speed limit.I initially thought that they were somehow getting away with it and the cameras inoperative.Apparently not because as the statistics show in the original link there has been a huge increase in revenue generated by the smart motorway overhead gantry cameras.Seems like they were shooting past all the law abiding drivers only to receive 3 points and a fine which in a funny sort of way makes me feel better.:drive::dance:


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## harrow (Nov 7, 2016)

wakk44 said:


> With the advent of the ''smart''motorways and the temporary lower speed limit at busy times it follows that speeding fines will increase,and so they have.....
> Speeding tickets on 'smart motorways' rise sharply - BBC News
> 
> I have been through lots of these overhead gantry speed limits on the motorway and wondered if they were enforceable or whether they were just advisory.I couldn't understand that when I was doing the speed limit through them other drivers were racing past obviously over the limit.Did they have some insider information that the temporary speed limit was just advisory or that the cameras weren't working?
> ...



I drove on the M25 round the west of London for 15 years, the speed limits would jump 70 60 50 40

A 40mph sign means its at a standstill.

It would be quite difficult to adjust to the new speed limits.


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## mistericeman (Nov 7, 2016)

harrow said:


> I drove on the M25 round the west of London for 15 years, the speed limits would jump 70 60 50 40
> 
> A 40mph sign means its at a standstill.
> 
> It would be quite difficult to adjust to the new speed limits.




No its not.... 

IF the speed limit changes on a 'smart motorway' changes... 
contrary to popular belief they can't alter JUST as you drive under the gantry with the camera (there would be righteous repercussions for this as it WOULD be making money from motorists) 
the first gantry you pass under with a change of speed limit is either one without a camera OR the camera is inoperative  to the best of my knowledge... 

Don't pay attention to the limits you WILL get caught... fact. 
NO point bleating about it you WERE speeding.. 

I say this as someone the drives on average 250 miles a day for work (often far more) and have done so for the last 30 years or so.... my only speeding offence was on a deserted single carriage way in North Yorkshire last year and resulted in the option of a speed awareness course.... 

My own fault for a lapse in concentration.... did the crime and did the time AND most importantly came away having learnt something and hopefully more aware AND safer


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## maingate (Nov 7, 2016)

mistericeman said:


> No its not....
> 
> IF the speed limit changes on a 'smart motorway' changes...
> contrary to popular belief they can't alter JUST as you drive under the gantry with the camera (there would be righteous repercussions for this as it WOULD be making money from motorists)
> ...



Funny you should say that ...........

.............. guess where I was between 5pm and 9 pm tonight?


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## mistericeman (Nov 7, 2016)

maingate said:


> Funny you should say that ...........
> 
> .............. guess where I was between 5pm and 9 pm tonight?



You got away lightly... full day for me.... that, said I DID learn some stuff.... 

over 30 in a a 30  zone means a heap more chance of a fatal injury (though the chap taking the course refused to accept that modern brakes/crumple zones and ABS had improved chances of survival... 

AND that out of the 50 folks attending I was the only one caught on an out of town single carriageway Road over the limit for the class of vehicle I was driving... (over 2 tons GVW)  so subject to national speed limit minus 10mph) ... 
own fault so no complaints.


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## hextal (Nov 7, 2016)

Not sure about older managed motorways but the newer tend to have cameras set back from the gantries that have the speed cameras attached so that the gantry image is taken at the same time as evidence of the posted limit.

Also bear in mind that the newer gantries are using hadecs 3, so for those that look up for the cameras also check the gantry legs at mid height.

Highways England forward the data to the relevant police authorities, some of whom prosecute, others basically just ignore it.  Last time I asked some were looking to set the triggers at zero tolerance rather than acpo guidelines (but this was last year, so could all be different now).


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## jagmanx (Nov 8, 2016)

*BBC news item*

Smart motorways catch more than 1,000 speeding drivers a week - BBC News


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## jacquigem (Nov 8, 2016)

mistericeman said:


> You got away lightly... full day for me.... that, said I DID learn some stuff....
> 
> over 30 in a a 30  zone means a heap more chance of a fatal injury (though the chap taking the course refused to accept that modern brakes/crumple zones and ABS had improved chances of survival...
> 
> ...



That's interesting. So in our 4 ton motorhome we should be 10 mph under signs?


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## Robmac (Nov 8, 2016)

jacquigem said:


> That's interesting. So in our 4 ton motorhome we should be 10 mph under signs?



Here you go;

Speed limits - GOV.UK


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 8, 2016)

Robmac said:


> Here you go;
> 
> Speed limits - GOV.UK




Its the 3rd and 4th lines which are important there.


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 8, 2016)

Registration numbers.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Nov 8, 2016)

noahtent said:


> Just back from my speed awareness course.
> Who else knows what the black stripe on the lollipop man's lollipop is for?



Haven't a clue but it sounds slightly rude to me. :raofl::raofl:


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## mistericeman (Nov 8, 2016)

noahtent said:


> Just back from my speed awareness course.
> Who else knows what the black stripe on the lollipop man's lollipop is for?



we didn't have that one BUT  from memory it's to chalk the reg  number of motorists that fail to stop


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2016)

noahtent said:


> Just back from my speed awareness course.
> Who else knows what the black stripe on the lollipop man's lollipop is for?



I do.

But there again, I did the course yesterday. :lol-061:


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## grahamandjayne (Nov 8, 2016)

*fines*

i would not mind if fines were proportional, i got done for doing 34 in a 30 limit, on a dual carriageway with access roads both sides!! i got 100 pounds and 3 points. Watching the police program i saw a guy doing 80 in a thirty limit, car chase, he had no insurance and nev er held a license, he got 100 pounds and 4 points on a license he will never have. Maybe  if they fined then twice the insurance quote for no insurance, for a first offence doubling for each subsequent offence. maybe if driving bans started when the offender got out of prison, and maybe if suspended sentences were implemented they might think twice. Its cheaper to pay the fine than do it legally!!!
Grumpy old git


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## hextal (Nov 8, 2016)

grahamandjayne said:


> i would not mind if fines were proportional, i got done for doing 34 in a 30 limit, on a dual carriageway with access roads both sides!! i got 100 pounds and 3 points. Watching the police program i saw a guy doing 80 in a thirty limit, car chase, he had no insurance and nev er held a license, he got 100 pounds and 4 points on a license he will never have. Maybe  if they fined then twice the insurance quote for no insurance, for a first offence doubling for each subsequent offence. maybe if driving bans started when the offender got out of prison, and maybe if suspended sentences were implemented they might think twice. Its cheaper to pay the fine than do it legally!!!
> Grumpy old git



Had a mate got done for pulling a wheelie. Stoopid, no question, and deserving of getting in trouble.

He ended up with a ban, large fine and something like 200hrs community service. During which he met a guy that had mugged an old lady and a chap that stole a car and then torched it, both of whom got significantly less of a punishment.


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## runnach (Nov 8, 2016)

grahamandjayne said:


> i would not mind if fines were proportional, i got done for doing 34 in a 30 limit, on a dual carriageway with access roads both sides!! i got 100 pounds and 3 points. Watching the police program i saw a guy doing 80 in a thirty limit, car chase, he had no insurance and nev er held a license, he got 100 pounds and 4 points on a license he will never have. Maybe  if they fined then twice the insurance quote for no insurance, for a first offence doubling for each subsequent offence. maybe if driving bans started when the offender got out of prison, and maybe if suspended sentences were implemented they might think twice. Its cheaper to pay the fine than do it legally!!!
> Grumpy old git



With respect are you sure you have the story right , 6 points is mandatory for no insurance 3 pts minimum for speeding but can be more so 4 pts giving a total of 10 pts.

New drivers/ Provisional only have a bank of 6 pts before licence withdrawn and another extended test required but 4 points would carry over to that new provisional

Channa


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## Croftland1 (Nov 8, 2016)

MidAgeTraveller said:


> and the A9...average cameras.  Dead of night and I have to do 50 in my van on a huge wide road. Not smart really when I can do 70 on a crowded M6 motorway. This is based on the assumption they can relate van weight to the applied 50 limit, anybody been done in a van going over 50 on the A9?



I don't think the authority understands the lower speed limit for vehicles over 3050kg net weight. They have put up signs on the A9 declaring a "trial 50mph limit for HGV's", when they shouldn't actually be doing more than that anyway on the single carriageway sections.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2016)

Croftland1 said:


> I don't think the authority understands the lower speed limit for vehicles over 3050kg net weight. They have put up signs on the A9 declaring a "trial 50mph limit for HGV's", when they shouldn't actually be doing more than that anyway on the single carriageway sections.



Not so I'm afraid, the limit is 40 mph in Scotland for HGV's. It was raised to 50 in England and Wales only.

These Speed Awareness Courses are useful for some things.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Nov 8, 2016)

maingate said:


> .........................
> These Speed Awareness Courses are useful for some things.



Yes-avoiding points.:lol-053:


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## ricc (Nov 8, 2016)

gotta say i thought the course was crap .most memorable bit  was the advice to use 3rd gear in a 30 mph limit and 2nd in a 20 ... i did consume a few biccies though


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## delicagirl (Nov 9, 2016)

ricc said:


> gotta say i thought the course was crap .most memorable bit  was the advice to use 3rd gear in a 30 mph limit and 2nd in a 20 ... i did consume a few biccies though




So presumably you knew everything that was imparted to you on the speed awareness course  -   which beggars the question why you were there at all?


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 9, 2016)

maingate said:


> Not so I'm afraid, the limit is 40 mph in Scotland for HGV's. It was raised to 50 in England and Wales only.
> 
> These Speed Awareness Courses are useful for some things.




I was under the impression that the *A9* still had a " Trial 50 MPH " going on for vehicles over 7.5 tonne ?


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## delicagirl (Nov 9, 2016)

noahtent said:


> "Question time" was an eye opener though. It proved my deepest suspicions about how little Joe and Joanne public know about speed limits for cars, never mind other vehicles.



i have been on two speed awareness courses in the last 10 years and i am irritated with myself that on one ocassion, i lost concentration and was travelling too fast (5mph over a 30mph zone  - but speeding nevertheless)  and on the other i took a risk because it was 3.00am and no traffic was around. 

Yes i went on the course to avoid points  - who doesn't?   But i  found them really useful.

Who of us, who passed our tests decades ago, have every bought/read a new Highway Code ?  i haven't and would be amazed if many had.

On the course i realised that many road signs had gone up which i had not understood,  - and i had not known about the high risk of killing children at 30mph rather than 40mph.  However the big red and white circles have not changed -  i was banged to rights.   The last course really made me focus on speed far more than before.

I do agree about the inappropriate court penalties for drivers who drive at seriously dangerous speeds.


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## hextal (Nov 9, 2016)

Wooie1958 said:


> I was under the impression that the *A9* still had a " Trial 50 MPH " going on for vehicles over 7.5 tonne ?



That was still there on Friday last week.


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## maingate (Nov 9, 2016)

Wooie1958 said:


> I was under the impression that the *A9* still had a " Trial 50 MPH " going on for vehicles over 7.5 tonne ?




I am not sure what you are trying to say?

A trial of 50 mph for HGV on a single carriageway would indicate that Scotland is thinking of following England and raising the speed limit by 10 mph.


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 9, 2016)

maingate said:


> I am not sure what you are trying to say?
> 
> A trial of 50 mph for HGV on a single carriageway would indicate that Scotland is thinking of following England and raising the speed limit by 10 mph.




I`m saying the last time i was up there a month or so back there were signs indicating the trial was still in force but only applies to a section of the A9.

I know this article is from a while back but ...............    50mph lorry speed limit on A9 single carriageway agreed - BBC News


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## ricc (Nov 9, 2016)

delicagirl said:


> So presumably you knew everything that was imparted to you on the speed awareness course  -   which beggars the question why you were there at all?




simples really .... i got caught by one of them mobile cameras...

imho anyone who claims to never have have broken a speed limit is a liar.  most of us do it every time we get in a vehicle, if youre lucky you dont get caught, if youre unluckyor reckless you do.


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## maingate (Nov 9, 2016)

Wooie1958 said:


> I`m saying the last time i was up there a month or so back there were signs indicating the trial was still in force but only applies to a section of the A9.
> 
> I know this article is from a while back but ...............    50mph lorry speed limit on A9 single carriageway agreed - BBC News



Thanks for the BBC link from 2014.

I thought I had seen those signs a fairly long time ago but no longer trust my memory. :lol-061:

If Scotland has not raised the speed limit officially by now, it looks like they never will.


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## alwaysared (Nov 9, 2016)

channa said:


> North Wales for example had a zero percent tolerance under Richard Brunstrum as CC.
> 
> I thought the sentence suggested past tense :lol-053:
> 
> Channa



I'm pretty sure Richard Brunstrum was anti biker that's why he introduced things like zero tolerance and mobile cameras in the back of horse boxes etc.

Del


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