# Filling UK gas bottle in Europe



## robodell

Hi,

Does anyone know where I can buy a full set of European adaptors for filling my UK bottles from LPG (GPL) stations? I know they are about because I have seen loads of motorhomers with them, but I can't seem to track them down.

I use 2x11kg Flowgas propane bottles. I am aware that some people will advise against self-filling them, but I've met so many people that do it that I believe if you are responsible about it it should be ok. This is not meant to be a cost saving measure, merely the ability to fill up when empty and replacements are unavailable.

I know that with my 11kg bottles, I can safely put 22 litres of gas in and I would never exceed that EVEN though some folks tell me that there is a cut-off to prevent you from overfilling.

I am looking for the ability to refill in France, Spain and Portugal primarily. I am aware of the (very) few places in Portugal where you can get your bottles refilled, but they are scarce and you are never in the right area when you get low.

Help required PLEASE - I'm happy to pay the going rate for the adaptor kit if anyone has a spare set.

Thanks

Rob O'Dell


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## vwalan

hi. there are loads of places to fill bottles in portugalmany garages have gpl,as its known there. spain can be difficult and you need a newish spanish adaptor. some garages have them others not. the spanish adaptor is available in uk. i dont have one as i use a spanish bottle .much cheaper than refilling. will message a tel,number to you for fittings.


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## vwalan

hi. just realised you may not be able to pick up messages


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## Nosha

They were on ebay for filling 'non fillable' bottles, also Gaslow and C.A.K tanks sell the adaptors to allow your adapter to be used in Spain etc.


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## Kontiki

There is NO cut off in a normal gas bottle such as Flogas or Calor, only bottles designed for refilling yourself such as Gaslow, Alugas or tanks fitted have the 80% cut off. Overfilling could be dangerous & you should be aware of what you are doing  
With normal bottles you should work out how much gas you need to refill with by the weight of the bottle. I wrote on my calor bottle what the weight was full & also have a double check with the weight stamped on the bottle. As said Portugal is easy as there are lots of places to fill up it is only Spain where there are a limited amount of places to fill up. You might also encounter problems trying to fill normal bottles rather than the ones designed to be re-filled.


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## midgeteler

On this subject, is it possible to refill BP gaslight bottles useing an adaptor?
I regularly refill my Calor bottles and am aware of the procedures etc...but having looked at BP's there does not seem to be a way of manually shutting down. Perhaps Alan will know


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## LandRoutes

*BP Fiberglass Bottle refilling???*

I have adored these bottles from afar for years assuming that the "Click-On" type bottles were not re-fillable. If anyone knows for a fact that these can be manually refilled at the GPL pumps then I'm in for a pair of these too! I could shave about 16Kg over my German steel bottles. Every little bit helps.

Now If I could shave 16 Kg off myself than that would be another matter all together!!!


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## vwalan

hi. never filled a gas litebottle.for uk clip on bottles i use a clip on adapter to uk old thread same as german french maroc bottles then use a different adapter to uk propane. THE FIRST ADAPTER IS A CALOR PART. SUPPLIED BY THEM WHEN CLIP ON FIRST CAME OUT. THE SECOND ONE IS ONE I HAD MADE. look around companies like BES.they carry all sorts of adapters .remember all bottles are designed to be refilled . wouldnt be any use other wise.think about what you are doing. more bottles without a cut off are filled worldwide every day than ones with it. gas companies wouldnt be allowed to refill if it was really dangerous. care and attention is the key. camping gas is refillable as well. they are the biggest rippoff.


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## midgeteler

vwalan said:


> hi. never filled a gas litebottle.for uk clip on bottles i use a clip on adapter to uk old thread same as german french maroc bottles then use a different adapter to uk propane. THE FIRST ADAPTER IS A CALOR PART. SUPPLIED BY THEM WHEN CLIP ON FIRST CAME OUT. THE SECOND ONE IS ONE I HAD MADE. look around companies like BES.they carry all sorts of adapters .remember all bottles are designed to be refilled . wouldnt be any use other wise.think about what you are doing. more bottles without a cut off are filled worldwide every day than ones with it. gas companies wouldnt be allowed to refill if it was really dangerous. care and attention is the key. camping gas is refillable as well. they are the biggest rippoff.



Thanks Alan, I thought you would know.I will keep looking


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## Bernard Jones

vwalan said:


> camping gas is refillable as well. they are the biggest rippoff.


 
They certainly are.
(Unless you buy them in Spain where the shops appear to refill them. - no camping gaz seal, slightly underweight, but only 11 Euros instead of up to £24 here!  And their Spanish gas is much better at low temperatures.) 
*Any idea where to get the kit to refill my 907 bottles please?*
(Am well aware of the dangers of overfilling, and maintain accurate scales to weigh the bottles.)


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## lebesset

you need 2 adaptors 

first one is to the common euro thread [ like a 4.5Kg calor butane dumpy ] available all over mainland europe and probably in uk as well as camping gas sell one themselves 

then you need an adaptor to that , probably called for a french/ german or dutch bottle which are all the same thread 

DO NOT PUT MORE THAN 5 LITRES  AN EMPTY 2.8 Kg BOTTLE

some people say it is dangerous to fill ordinary gas bottles yourself as you could overfill ; well , it is , and it isn't ! the pump will only work at 10 bar pressure , so it stops filling when the bottle reaches that [ rated operating pressure of bottle is 15 bar , test pressure 30 bar ; so the bottle will not explode whatever you do 

HOWEVER , you need to leave enough space above the liquid  to ensure that no liquid goes up the pipe to the appliance ...that WOULD be dangerous 

so only fill empty bottles , and then only to the rated capacity , which in the case of the big camping gas is , as stated ,  5 litres

I presume that most people know that camping gas started out as a french company , but was taken over by colemans of the usa some time ago


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## Tony Lee

> some people say it is dangerous to fill ordinary gs bottles yourself as you could overfill ; well , it is , and it isn't ! the pump will only work at 10 bar pressure , so it stops filling when the bottle reaches that [ rated operating pressure of bottle is 15 bar , test pressure 30 bar ; so the bottle will not explode whatever you do



Just this statement alone should convince anyone who really does know the physics involved that this poster hasn't a clue what he is talking about.


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## lebesset

amazing ; what's physics got to do with it  ; chemistry , ok , you may have heard of m. boyle ; P1V1/T1 continues to equal P2V2/T2 just like he said 

the fact remains that a pump limited to 10 bar cannot create more than a 10 bar pressure in the recipient container anymore than a liquid can run up hill


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## Tbear

Tony Lee said:


> Just this statement alone should convince anyone who really does know the physics involved that this poster hasn't a clue what he is talking about.


 
Hi Tony,

Perhaps you should spend a little time and educate rather than belittle the poster.

Richard


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## lebesset

amazing ; what's physics got to do with it  ; chemistry , ok , you may have heard of m. boyle ; P1V1/T1 continues to equal P2V2/T2 just like he said 

the fact remains that a pump limited to 10 bar cannot create more than a 10 bar pressure in the recipient container anymore than a liquid can run up hill 
to illustrate my point , many of the air pumps now being installed at filling stations are now limited to 4 bar ; you can stand there all day but they won't pump your motorhomes up to 4.1 bar ! common sense really


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## GregM

I have one of the adapters listed on ebay jukka5523 | eBay UK

They've gone up in the past 18 months since I purchased it but probably down to euro exchange rate.

I only purchased it for convenience if stuck without gas and have only used it once and I was probably over cautious, rather than fill the 6kg bottle to 12 liters I stopped at 10 liters. 

hth


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## Tony Lee

lebesset said:


> amazing ; what's physics got to do with it  ; chemistry , ok , you may have heard of m. boyle ; P1V1/T1 continues to equal P2V2/T2 just like he said
> 
> 
> the fact remains that a pump limited to 10 bar cannot create more than a 10 bar pressure in the recipient container anymore than a liquid can run up hill
> to illustrate my point , many of the air pumps now being installed at filling stations are now limited to 4 bar ; you can stand there all day but they won't pump your motorhomes up to 4.1 bar ! common sense really


 

More dangerous ignorance.
 Boyles law and Ideal Gas law refer to GASES. 
We are talking about LIQUIDS

I wouldn't mind if common sense did come into it, because commonsense would at least indicate that there is a reason for some of these "terrible" rules and regulations that so restrict the basic right of truly stupid people to kill themselves.  I would regard it as basic natural selection if it weren't for the sad fact that they often take innocent people out with them

Fixed tanks come with an overfill preventer valve and or a bleed valve so when filled by trained people, it is impossible to fill the bottle right up to the top.  A normal exchange bottle may not be fitted with either of these devices (although they are in the USA) so if you just hook your bottle up to an autogas pump using an illegal adaptor, it may be possible to fill the bottle right up to the top with liquid LPG so there is no gas space at all. True, the autogas pump may not be able to burst the bottle even in this case, but what happens if you then turn the valve off and leave the bottle in the sun of in the boot of a car in the sun.
Last time I looked, LPG (where L stands for liquid) is regarded as incompressible and figures I have seen refer to a pressure of 200 Bar (two-hundred) compresses LPG by less than 1%.

So you have a bottle full of incompressible liquid being heated in the sun. Perhaps someone else will explain which one of several possible scenarios is most likely

Not at all the same as having tyre pressures limited to 4.1 Bar so idiots don't blow their tyres apart and kill someone. It IS a matter of basic physics - fill a container right to the top with incompressible liquid and heat it up and see what happens.


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## Tony Lee

Tbear said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Perhaps you should spend a little time and educate rather than belittle the poster.
> 
> Richard



Is there anyone who can point to regulations or approvals that would indicate that using these adaptors to refill exchange bottles on the forecourt of a filling station is either legal or safe.? This topic comes up regularly and the first or last sentence of the OP is invariably "Yes, I know this is illegal/dangerous/stupid etc etc ...  but ...."

As for belittling someone who pretends to know what he is talking about by advocating this practice on an open forum when he also hasn't a clue about the level of experience, or competence or commonsense of the OP - I would be surprised if this forum didn't have rules against members who give advice without considering their duty of care. Do no harm is the safest course of action.


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## GregM

Tony Lee said:


> A normal exchange bottle may not be fitted with either of these devices (although they are in the USA) so if you just hook your bottle up to an autogas pump using an illegal adaptor, it may be possible to fill the bottle right up to the top with liquid LPG so there is no gas space at all.



Tony, where have you found the information stating that these adaptors are illegal? 



Tony Lee said:


> Is there anyone who can point to regulations or approvals that would indicate that using these adaptors to refill exchange bottles on the forecourt of a filling station is either legal or safe.? This topic comes up regularly and the first or last sentence of the OP is invariably "Yes, I know this is illegal/dangerous/stupid etc etc ...  but ...."


Surely you are more likely to find  information if they where illegal. If there is nothing stating it's illegal then its legal, no? I have yet to be shown anything that states it is illegal to fill up these bottles at a forecourt. It may be against the exchange bottle owners (calor etc) terms and conditions but it's not illegal.

Greg


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## John H

According to the HSE, the refilling of transportable lpg cylinders other than those specifically designed for the purpose (eg Gaslow) is potentially dangerous and any forecourt owner who allows it may be liable to having his license to store petroleum removed. In other words, he could be put out of business. There is no statute banning such refilling but the powers that the HSE has render such a statute unecessary in practice.

At the other end of the spectrum, if the user ignores the HSE and refills such a cylinder then it is almost certain that if anything goes wrong his insurance will be rendered null and void. 

All in all, it might be safer for those who don't know what they are doing (and that is the vast majority of us, including me) to play it by the rules.


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## vwalan

so it must be ok to fill gas bottles .they are just about all designed to be refilled . i dont see throw awayable gas cylinders other than the very small ones. and not all tanks have 80percent fill turn offs .i have a car tank here with out, and a big 1200ltr tank with out.
seems to me most think gaslow are the ultimate but they are the new boys on the street . others have been selling refillable bottles for years . we had lpg powered cars years ago. my first one was in 74, fell out of favour in the late 70,s as diesel cars got better. non of it is new. english china clay down here had an enormous fleet of vehicles running gas.
compressed natural gas is the way forward .very big in china. there are quite a few here as well.shame uk is so far behind. 
mind china as lorries and buses running on electric ,we dont seem to be able to get it together.


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## John H

vwalan said:


> so it must be ok to fill gas bottles .they are just about all designed to be refilled . i dont see throw awayable gas cylinders other than the very small ones. and not all tanks have 80percent fill turn offs .i have a car tank here with out, and a big 1200ltr tank with out.
> seems to me most think gaslow are the ultimate but they are the new boys on the street . others have been selling refillable bottles for years . we had lpg powered cars years ago. my first one was in 74, fell out of favour in the late 70,s as diesel cars got better. non of it is new. english china clay down here had an enormous fleet of vehicles running gas.
> compressed natural gas is the way forward .very big in china. there are quite a few here as well.shame uk is so far behind.
> mind china as lorries and buses running on electric ,we dont seem to be able to get it together.


 
I'm not sure but I think the 80% cut-off is critical as far as the HSE is concerned (I'm confident on legal matters but not technical ones!) which is why cylinders such as Gaslow (and I used them simply as an example not as the only deal in town) are considered ok and others not. But if I'm wrong I am sure someone will come along and say so!


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## vwalan

john if you ever get down here visit me. i have a big gas tank here with out an 80percent cut off its in my front garden and gets filled regularly by a well known gas company. i have a lpg kit taken from a car also no 80percent cut off. how are normal bottles filled if hse says you cant fill them. thousands are filled every day in this country alone. yes care and attention is required . ask most travellers we have all seen the turkish greek gas bottles being filled by a man smoking a fag. its laughable .


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## Byronic

Tony, If we start eg with an empty bottle at atmospheric pressure then attach filler hose sealed at the filler neck and pump in a compressed liquified gas then as the bottle fills, the void above (the liquid air/gas mix) will become progressively compressed as the bottle fills until such time as the pressure creates a back pressure  sufficient to operate the predetermined cutoff limit 4bar/10bar. This wil leave an expansion space? Of course not necessarily 20%.
 Or am I missing something?


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## Tbear

E = MC squared stumped me, string theory is well over my head so my logic may well not be perfect but if you put 8kg in a 10kg pot is that not an 80% fill. If so with a little bit of common sence - what we getting heated about.

Richard


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## Tony Lee

Byronic said:


> Tony, If we start eg with an empty bottle at atmospheric pressure then attach filler hose sealed at the filler neck and pump in a compressed liquified gas then as the bottle fills, the void above (the liquid air/gas mix) will become progressively compressed as the bottle fills until such time as the pressure creates a back pressure  sufficient to operate the predetermined cutoff limit 4bar/10bar. This wil leave an expansion space? Of course not necessarily 20%.
> Or am I missing something?


Yes, good point that describes what we expect to happen

Problem arises because if you apply enough pressure, any gas will liquify - the pressure required being a function of temperature.

For instance, propane at 70F takes 110psi to liquefy it and Butane takes only 20psi.

So if you start with a bottle full of propane gas and pump liquid propane into it using a pump with a pressure capability of over 110 psi, then what you say is correct to a certain point when the pressure inside the cylinder reaches more than 110psi, the gas inside starts to liquefy. This process can continue until the cylinder is hydraulically full of liquid and all the gas has liquefied. Note that this pressureis way below the claimed maximum pressure of the delivery pumps and for Butane, the discrepancy is even greater.
Theory of partial pressures is a little more complex than that, but it comes down to gases obeying gas laws only up to the point where they liquefy, after which what we think is intuitive behavior no longer applies. So the pump - pumping capability of 10 bar - 147psi - won't shut off until the bottle is full of liquid (I think the 4 bar was in relation to DIY tyre filling machines with lock-on chucks) Commercial fillers of portable bottles use weight and/or fluid measure to refill bottles while leaving a safe margin. In Australia the small scale refillers use the bleed valve to manually fill until liquid starts spurting out. This gives us 9.5kg. Big swap and go refillers using weight and volume only fill to 9kg to allow a bit more safety margin against overfilling. Fred Nurk just isn't allowed to do the job himself.

(we use the converse of this process when we use the gas because at a given temperature, the liquid keeps evaporating as we draw the gas off to keep  the pressure at the same value until every last bit of liquid has evaporated, after which the contents of the tank DO does obey the gas laws. This is why the so called gas level gauges that are actually pressure gauges don't do much more than tell you that the gas has all but run out, especially at low ambient temperatures.

BTW, petrol behaves in a similar manner (even though it is composed of perhaps 20 different compounds each with different characteristics) and those of us who use the newer plastic containers are often tempted to relieve the pressure (which can be up to 12psi) when they puff up on a hot day. Trouble is within seconds, they have puffed up again so the choice is to accept that the containers really are designed for it, or leave the lid cracked open enough so it doesn't puff up - BUT does create a very dangerous situation around it and will eventually lead to an empty container.


Many French and German filling stations have very clear notices about filling portable bottles being verboten or interdict and many countries - eg Australia and the US do have laws as to who can fill bottles using what equipment so it isn't such a free-for-all as some might hope.


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## Byronic

You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie  it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!


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## Byronic

Tbear said:


> E = MC squared stumped me, string theory is well over my head so my logic may well not be perfect but if you put 8kg in a 10kg pot is that not an 80% fill. If so with a little bit of common sence - what we getting heated about.
> 
> Richard


 
Everybodies getting heated with gas. E=MC2 thats easy , we're trying to crack Reimanns Hypothesis and I think on this thread we've just about cracked it.
 $1,000,000 prize.


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## AndyC

Byronic said:


> You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie  it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
> This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!


It also assumes that there is 'air' in the bottle!

There will be air in a brand new bottle which has yet to be filled, once it has been filled and the initial mix of air and propane or butane gas has been exhausted it will contain only propane or butane gas.

AndyC


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## Tony Lee

Byronic said:


> You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie  it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
> This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!



I say start with a bottle full of GAS - as in Propane gas - because this is what the normal situation is. 

Yes, what you say would apply ONLY for a first fill of a brand-new unpurged tank, but that is a very special case that would give very unpredictable safety margin and it doesn't apply in a general case anyway.

The presence of air in a bottle IS a problem in liquid delivery systems (for LPG powered vehicles) because as you say, it doesn't liquefy and it prevents the bottle from being filled to its proper capacity. Normally, these are purged of air prior to first fill by pulling a vacuum and then filling with LPG.  However, for gas delivery systems like we use, there isn't likely to be any air left in the tank after the first fill because it will be bled out the top of the tank as soon as the valve is opened (makes getting a fridge or water heater pilot light to stay lit a very long process). Once the initial volume of air bleeds off first, there will only be propane/butane left in the tank and when the tank is refilled, this will liquefy once the pressure rises above the vapour pressure at whatever the temperature is at the time.

 If you are filling the tank with Butane and the temperature is a few degrees  below zero, you don't need a pump at all and could theoretically pour it in using a funnel, so completely filling a bottle with liquid isn't just a hypothetical situation - and once it is full, and the valve shut, you then rely on the safety valve if fitted (and even then, while it may prevent the bottle from rupturing, opening the car door on an interior full of a perfect propane-air explosive mixture isn't real safe either. Plumber in Sydney died a few years ago from just this situation.

I'm curious. Am I the only one to admit to being distracted when filling a bucket  or fuel can or siphoning fuel into a can or whatever, and having it overflow. Water or petrol on the ground is pretty obvious and you take appropriate precautions, but a hydraulically-full LPG bottle looks no more dangerous than a properly-filled one, but in fact is a bomb waiting to cause major damage or injury.

-------------------------

Someone made the point that anything not specifically prohibited, was therefore permitted - so why would it be illegal to use an adaptor to fill a portable bottle. I don't think this is a true reflection of how our society operates anyway, but my assumption is that gas, like electricity and vehicle components - and even city water supplies, is normally  very tightly regulated and only tested and approved appliances, fittings and components may be used - and often, only installed by authorised people. If these refilling adaptors do come under any such regulation then it is a case that anything not specifically approved is prohibited and there may be a further requirement that the operation must only be performed by trained and authorised people.


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## John H

vwalan said:


> john if you ever get down here visit me. i have a big gas tank here with out an 80percent cut off its in my front garden and gets filled regularly by a well known gas company. i have a lpg kit taken from a car also no 80percent cut off. how are normal bottles filled if hse says you cant fill them. thousands are filled every day in this country alone. yes care and attention is required . ask most travellers we have all seen the turkish greek gas bottles being filled by a man smoking a fag. its laughable .


 
As I said before, the science of all this is beyond me so I tend to play safe. The HSE refers to cylinders with the appropriate markings (whatever they are). It may not make sense scientifically but the rules of the HSE over-ride logic when it comes to closing down filling stations or invalidating insurance claims and I for one would rather have a cheque from the insurance company if something went wrong than nothing other than a belief that the HSE didn't know what it was talking about. Having said that, I too have bought those Turkish/Greek bottles in the past! Necessity makes fools of us all.


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## Byronic

Tony as you say my example is is not really a situation in the practical sense, ie  as applies to the everyday M/Homer. 
Although if you wanted to to be as near safe as would be practicable this would be a way of filling a "non refillable bottle" ie before refilling, purge the bottle and let air in by leaving valve open, and then check with gas detector. 
VWallen says that the term "non refillable bottle" is a misnomer because they are factory refilled as a matter of course, but I wonder what procedure they apply, I suspect they purge and create a vacuum, and not just fill and weigh, after all they must know that some bottles are returned with incorrect contents by self fillers. 
Yes of course if you have Butane @ a few degrees below freezing you'll just be able to pour as a liquid,.... just as we do with petrol within a wide temp. range.


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## lebesset

byronic ,I have watched the filling process more than once 
it used to be that in alicante gas factory the lpg pump was inside the premises and to fill your vehicle you were allowed to drive through as the pump was at the rear , so I was a regular visitor

so you were able to watch the operatives filling the bottles ..process as follows 

'empty' bottles taken off truck in racks , placed beside filling line , placed on conveyor which runs it under the filling head ; this is pushed  onto the bottle to create a gas tight seal [ foot actuated if I remember correctly ] , nothing screwed on of course ! operative pumped in the appropriate amount of gas [ I presume he read the tare marked on each bottle ]; the process was so rapid that I queried how they knew no bottles were underfilled and was told they give an extra squirt just to be sure , it's not an exact measure 

examination of bottles , purging ? you cannot be serious ...I suppose the guy who takes them out of the racks has a glance for obvious damage , but no more than that 

I have also been in a calor filling station in the uk [ the  laboratory where I worked was almost next door ], but that was many years ago and the filling head must have been different due to the valve profile 

I have also seen on in france , very similar system , but I can't pretend I paid close attention

actually I have read somewhere on one of these forums that calor state they fill butane bottles to something like 85% , which is logical if you apply boyles law , the pressure will be lower than propane at a given volume /temperature  in an equal  container


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## Tbear

Tony Lee said:


> Is there anyone who can point to regulations or approvals that would indicate that using these adaptors to refill exchange bottles on the forecourt of a filling station is either legal or safe.? This topic comes up regularly and the first or last sentence of the OP is invariably "Yes, I know this is illegal/dangerous/stupid etc etc ...  but ...."
> 
> As for belittling someone who pretends to know what he is talking about by advocating this practise on an open forum when he also hasn't a clue about the level of experience, or competence or commonsense of the OP - I would be surprised if this forum didn't have rules against members who give advice without considering their duty of care. Do no harm is the safest course of action.


Tony

I think somebody else said that the onus is on the authorities to make a practise illegal if it is unsafe. I would add that many things are unsafe like driving on the roads. How many people are killed every day doing that. A practise you carry out regularly? 

I have a lantern and a heater which mount directly onto a cylinder of camping gas. Which do you think is more dangerous them or a hose.

I look on this forum as a great source of information. It can only remain so if members can ask question or voice opinions without fear of ridicule. 

Richard


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## vwalan

hi. having been around gas depots as a driver .i see them just look, open. fill. they get filled so quick its hard to imagine all the fuss on these sites. as for butane /propane. does it really matter if its mixed in small amounts . i dont think so. remember the gases arent pure exactly .auto gas is a mix. some of the camping gases are a mix as they work in cold climates . in morocco a high blend of pentane is used as this evaporates easier in warm climates .remember also that you dont have to have a degree  in anything to get a job filling bottles. its not a hard or difficult thing to do. as i have said before lpg pumps are available to help in the filling of bottles and calor still i think will supply you with a system to fill your vehicles /bottles. lots of places have their own gas filling point. it can be dangerous but come on its not really complicated . we can think up all sorts of complications but visit a gas bottle station then you will see how they do it. most companies will let you if you ask nicely.


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## Byronic

Alan it may well be a simple thing to fill a gas bottle but we were discussing the the science (without being pretentious) of how gases behave under pressure etc. As Lebesset writes, that in the filling depot they fill by weight but if the operative decides to have a smoke and the bottle gets filled to capacity then I would think a back pressure safety shutoff would operate, the bottle could then be bled off to 80/85%. Perhaps this would be automatically carried out in the fill valve by an overfill return valve, I don't know,but 2 safety measures.
Now as I see it when you use an LPG pump at a public garage to fill a "non refillable" bottle should you accidently fill the bottle 100% then the pump back pressure cutoff would operate and any overpressure would return via a relief at the fill valve? You would then  have to bleed off 15%, presuming of course that you have remembered to weigh the bottle and realised that you have overfilled. The thing is you have only one safety measure ie the overfill shutoff.
When you fill a refillable bottle you have the additional safety measure of an integral shutoff valve in the bottle that you can't forget as you might forget your trusty scales. Crossing the road can be dangerous and if you get it wrong you'll probably just take yourself out. If you get your refill wrong you may take out the neighourhood.


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## Tony Lee

> It can only remain so if members can ask question or voice opinions without fear of ridicule.



Agreed - as Byronic and others have done, BUT there are always members who will make pronouncements about the safety of something using scientifically-indefensible statements to do so. The first type are after information or clarification and will invariably get questions answered, and/or enjoy the discussion that follows. The second type don't want to know anything because they already know it all so don't deserve the same courtesies as the first group. They are dangerous people.

Lots of topics on these sort of forums don't involve any degree of personal or property safety so it doesn't matter so much if someone give wrong information and another takes it, but in certain technical matters, giving wrong or improperly clarified advice to the public at large can put someone in danger and that is the sort of thing none of us should take any risks with - especially since it is quite easy to check one's own understanding by doing some basic research on the internet before advising on safety-related posts here.

BTW Thread: Filling UK gas bottle in Europe
- so we should be addressing the situation applying in the whole of Europe, not just the blurry situation that applies to the UK


----------



## vwalan

that said the only differance is the adaptor you use to fill the bottle from the pump. nothing else changes .where ever you are .fill from empty and dont be distracted . use the kg wt and x2 for litres .


----------



## lebesset

byronic , I ran lpg powered vehicles for more than 20 years 

3 times I had the safety valves fail and ended up filling tanks [ much bigger than gas bottles ] to probably 95% ; of course the tanks don't fail as they are still well within their design parameters , and as vehicles use a liquid pick up you can quicky use up the excess without any great danger , just don't leave the vehicle in the sun like that !

but gas bottles for cooking /heating etc are a different matter ; the thought of relying on so called safety valves in a bottle alarms me , liquid up the pipe would not be funny!

so no way would I use such a device ....I stick with the methodology of the gas bottle filling stations , empty bottle , measured fill ; 100% safe ? perhaps not , but neither is getting out of bed 

to people who ask me about buying bottle with 80% valves I always give the same answer ...go ahead , but when you use them run them empty and put in a measured amount from the pump , ignore the 80% valve unless it stops you below that [ they are not accurate ] ; there are also heavy ends , but that is the subject of a different discussion !


----------



## Tbear

Tony Lee said:


> Agreed - as Byronic and others have done, BUT there are always members who will make pronouncements about the safety of something using scientifically-indefensible statements to do so. The first type are after information or clarification and will invariably get questions answered, and/or enjoy the discussion that follows. The second type don't want to know anything because they already know it all so don't deserve the same courtesies as the first group. They are dangerous people.
> 
> Lots of topics on these sort of forums don't involve any degree of personal or property safety so it doesn't matter so much if someone give wrong information and another takes it, but in certain technical matters, giving wrong or improperly clarified advice to the public at large can put someone in danger and that is the sort of thing none of us should take any risks with - especially since it is quite easy to check one's own understanding by doing some basic research on the internet before advising on safety-related posts here.
> 
> BTW Thread: Filling UK gas bottle in Europe
> - so we should be addressing the situation applying in the whole of Europe, not just the blurry situation that applies to the UK


 
That I can agree with but its one thing to say "You are a Plonker" and a very diffferent thing to say "please check your facts" even if they cleary are a Plonker


----------



## maureenandtom

If you do it yourself and it goes wrong it could kill you.

Therefore we have a measure of how dangerous it is.   Actual danger not theoretical danger.

How many people have been killed or injured because of exceeding the 80% limit?

I've not found any.  The only comparable instance I ever found was two or three years ago about an incident several years before that, and I can't find it now, concerning a *possibly *overfilled gas bottle being stored under a lit barbecue and overfilling may have been a contributory factor.   This was in the USA and, once again I can't remember exactly, this incident may have been a contributory factor to having all gas bottles in USA fitted with overfill protection. 

It's dangerous, I accept that.  How many accidents have been traced to overfilling?   It should be an easy enough statistic to find.  I can't find it.

I'm not making any rhetorical question here, I want to know.

594162


----------



## Byronic

I don't know how many accidents that have been caused by overfilled bottles, but my guess is not many, perhaps a testament to the fact that not many people fill bottles that are marked as non user refillable. I'm not saying that you can't refill your own bottle, just that there are specifically designed bottles sold for just that purpose and to use them would be good practice. Cost is the determining factor. If it was found that refilling non refillables were the cause of accidents then I could well imagine the authorities banning all refilling by the public.
As for exploding bottles I've always believed that  if a bottle were to overheat, rather than split and explode the valve is designed to blow off first and the gas escapes as a jet. Which is considered the lesser of 2 evils.


----------



## jezport

Tony Lee said:


> I'm curious. Am I the only one to admit to being distracted when filling a bucket  or fuel can or siphoning fuel into a can or whatever, and having it overflow. Water or petrol on the ground is pretty obvious and you take appropriate precautions, but a hydraulically-full LPG bottle looks no more dangerous than a properly-filled one, but in fact is a bomb waiting to cause major damage or injury.


 
When filling a gas bottle you cant go wrong as long as you concentrate on the display and ensure that the bottle is empty to start with.


----------



## Tony Lee

LPG systems are one RV essential that a lot of people manage to use for years without having any problems so I guess we can attribute that to adequate regulations and the fact that most people are happy to use them in a conventional manner.

Needed to catch up on the laundry so called in at a caravan park in the south of France.  Britt in a WizzzzBANG asked for advice on his gas setup - said it was flaring up when lighting the stove.

Found that he had bought a new gas bottle before leaving home and the only way he could fit it in the gas locker was to lay it on its side.

-------------------------

The problem with filling gas bottles 100% full isn't that they are very likely to explode - assuming the safety valve does work- but because if the safety valve goes off due to rapid pressure rise as the contents warm up, either gas or liquid is ejected from the valve until the pressure drops enough for the valve to be able to close. If the bottle is lying on its side, the significant amount of liquid escaping will convert into a large volume of gas. If this escapes into a sealed vehicle or building it will stay there for a long time. Even in a tent, the sealing is often good enough that a layer of gas can build up on the floor.

--------------------------------


> vwalan
> 
> that said the only differance is the adaptor you use to fill the bottle from the pump. nothing else changes .where ever you are .fill from empty and dont be distracted . use the kg wt and x2 for litres .



Let's hope it isn't catching


----------



## Byronic

Allen..... so you reckon it's only the adaptor thats different, no it is not.... the refillable cannot be filled to more than 80% and thats the whole point, it does not rely on concentrating on the pump meter or the arithmetical abilities of the brain dead.


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## vwalan

byronic. refilling uk gas bottles in europe . only the adapter is different if you have a refillable or standard .to refill either is the same here or abroad .the refillable might have a 80percent stop .but these can be overridden by the pump. but anyway if you refill a standard bottle in uk the only differance is the adaptor abroad. may be you dont understand english ..joke.... ..i have never had a [problem filling uk bottles abroad .i do keep them strapped in the locker. (fixed)i normally fit the filling adaptor .go to the garager open gas locker door connect and fill. 
having used lpg for years on cars and filling tanks i have seen these stop valves fail quite often. on the cars it doesnt matter as you use liquid. but i start with an empty bottle tare is marked on the bottle .fill the required litres .check weigh when away from garage .i can always let some out if i want. 
can i ask have you ever tried to fill a bottle either by the pump or decanting. i have lpg hand pump to assist bottle decants. its a krugg ,usa made brilliant tool. i personally find it very simple to fill bottles and first filled a gas bottle in 1976. remember it well ,i worked on a campsite and we had run out of bottles . a maintenance man said give it here ,went to their site gas tank and filled it. it was there i got the clip on to old style screw conector. never looked back since.


----------



## Byronic

Allen 
It doesn't matter if I've ever filled a bottle or not. 
It may be presumptious to say it, but I will, and that is, that most M/Homers on the Forums don't have your expertise or experience on LPG matters. I wonder how many have heard of a Krugg pump, let alone considered buying one.
The Refillable Bottle is made for the Gas Ignorant Majority, it may fail, nothing is absolutely 100% safe.
So for the sake of say £200 you get something developed by Professionals (I hope)designed to take as much risk as is practicable out of filling gas bottles on the garage forecourt. Otherwise what the hell is the point of making these bottles? Are they just for the gullible?
Hey what don't I understand about English, I can talk GIBberish (joke)thats nearly English!


----------



## vwalan

yes i do think the refillable bottles at 200quid are made for gullable folk, they are in my mind made to a poor standard of safety. 
i cant speak giberish well not like you. can use a bit of berber or arabic. that works in giberish land if you are buying fish n chips . any way stop monkeying around . anyone want a demo of how to fill a bottle please feel free to visit me . or ask me when you see me on the road. 
by the way just given purple dreams a new coat .very shiney now. do you want that old merc to have a touch up. hee hee look nice with a good wash n polish. 
hard hat on low flying missiles expected . see you next winter. give my regards to your better half. xx alan..   alan... not allen. ..hee hee .


----------



## Byronic

Are you sure you spell Allen as Alan you know what your spelling's like. 
I hope for your sake that by now everyone's thoroughly bored by this thread and haven't read your comments re the gullibility of those who have bought refillables. 
I think I've lost the battle against rust haven't washed, let alone polished the van since getting back.
I think we can agree that the light box truck (apart from fuel usage) a la Bob 's is the best all round selfbuild M/home base, unfortunately that's not how it's seen by many campsite clubs/owners insurers and authorities. Even my conventional panel van conversion is getting to be more problematical, but thats a whole new thread......you start it!! 
Yes, I know, I'm getting my apostrophes in the wrong places.


----------



## Bernard Jones

Many Thanks for the constructive replies so far.  I think I have sourced the fittings to fill Camping Gaz 907 cylinders from a forecourt pump.

Brownhills Accessory Store
Brownhills Accessory Store
Brownhills Accessory Store

I am not deterred by the obssesive H&S fanatics, because I am well aware of the dangers of overfilling, and would accurately weigh the cylinder beforehand, not putting in any more than a professionally filled 907 cylinder would weigh.

But is the forecourt gas about the same as Camping Gaz butane, in terms of pressure, and weight?
(Although I know the gas the hardware shop in Albir (Spain) puts in 907 cylinders is not the same as Camping Gaz because the Spanish gas burns much better at low temperatures)


----------



## vwalan

right i am sure that you will find lpg burns ok. hopefully it will have a higher portion of propane. thats why it can burn at low temperatures . 
i once took a 19 kg propane bottle into africa and did refill my camping gas bottles .(they fitted the vw gas cuboard better. )trouble was in africa the price of exchange 907 was only 60p . still only a quid in maroc. i carried the big bottle on the roof wrapped in black cloth . i let it warm up before decanting so the extra pressure aided the filling process . its best to have the top bottle warm and the bottom bottle cool. 
you may find it easier to just decant from a bigger bottle . i very often decant from a 47kg bottle or a big gas tank.
as an observation all over africa and southern europe gas bottles are carried in trucks open to the sun. possibly hundreds of them. you see the trucks every where . havent heard of the safety valves poping or bottles exploding. it gets very hot in mid africa .i,m sure if bottles kept poping safety valves they would protect them from the sun. and many times you get them to fil your bottle if you weigh it its well over the kg you want .just take it somewhere out of the way and let enough out to put it to the required weight. remo sell gas bottle weighing scales . like old fashioned parcel spring balances .


----------



## Bernard Jones

Thanks for the reply. Being a tightwad I would prefer to fill my (Camping Gaz) 907 bottles from a forecourt pump, rather than other gas bottles, because a forecourt pump seems the cheapest.
I was just concerned if LPG was at a higher pressure or different weight than that in 907 (butane) bottles.  (since I would be measuring it by weight if the 907 bottles were not completely empty).  I gather propane is at a higher pressure than butane. 
I don't know what gas the Spanish put in them.  I only know it burns better than the gas Camping Gaz put in.


----------



## Tony Lee

No, autogas isn't the same as butane. Iso-Butane is different again. In UK autogas is mostly propane. It may have varying proportions of propane, butane and other gases. Pure liquid propane develops a pressure of 110psi at 70F while liquid Butane is about 1/5 that.

Are your appliances set up to use propane or a mixture.
Is your regulator the correct pressure for a mixture.


----------



## vwalan

in practice i have found it doesnt matter if you use a butane or a propane regulator. it did at one time bother me. but while travelling and having to get what ever gas you could put in what ever bottles you had .i found it makes no noticable differance. in germany they use 30mbr or 50 mbr .both use both gases .if you use uk 28mbr /37mbr regulators i have put both gases through either. it works . possibly that will be frowned on by the sceptis as well. i have experimented with manual adjustable regs as well but not really found them necasary.


----------



## Bernard Jones

Tony Lee said:


> Are your appliances set up to use propane or a mixture.
> Is your regulator the correct pressure for a mixture.


 
I've got a Camping Gaz cooker complete with regulator but never use it.

I just have 2 Camping Gaz 907 gas bottles, and screw Camping Gaz gas rings into the top. (plus 2 spare bottles and a spare gas ring)  They don't have regulators - just a tap with the gas ring above it.
I have built the galley around this.  My thinking being without any pipes or regulators there is less to go wrong (leak) Plus with each gas ring being completely independent of the other, if one fails I still have the other.  I can also remove the cooker and gas from the van in a jiffy, if necessary. (its still registered as a van)

The arrangement works well enough for me, so I am reluctant to change it.  Its just a very expensive way to buy gas, about 6 times the price in a forecourt pump, and more difficult to find a supplier.  Feeling the weight of the empty ones size for size the 907 bottles appear stronger than Gaslow bottles, which would be expensive and require installation, including piping etc which would be an additional safety risk.  I carry a good quality scale to weigh the 907 bottles, remarkable how much the weight of filled bottles varies, I would fill to the weight of the lowest weight of bottles I have bought.  If I could refill them from a forecourt pump that would be ideal!

I don't need to be reminded how dangerous liquid gas is.  No one is more concerned about the safety of these bottles than me because I sleep in the van with them.


----------



## lebesset

bernard ,as alan says , the appliances seem to work ok irrespective of the regulator ...which is why they now all use a 30Mb regulator [ personally I use 28 /30/37Mb regulators for both gases

with regard to filling with butane or propane , at a given temperature propane will have the  higher pressure ;  for that reason it is imperative that you lower the fill quantity ie instead of filling a 907 with 5.5 litres of butane which is normal , you fill with 5 litres of lpg [ otherwise known as industrial grade propane 

hate to tell you , but your filling set of 3 bits won't work ; to do what you want you need the piece which screws into the 907 , then an adaptor from that to the pump 

I understand that those are sold on Ebay .....you now have the standard left hand thread on your 907 , same as a german/french /dutch/ belgian bottle , so shouldn't be too hard to find , alan will no doubt advise [ I had mine all turned from solid brass 25 years ago ]


----------



## Bernard Jones

lebesset said:


> hate to tell you , but your filling set of 3 bits won't work ; to do what you want you need the piece which screws into the 907 , then an adaptor from that to the pump


 
Thanks for the reply.  But I couldn't see anything on ebay which appeared to fit the 907.  I was thinking of this on the 907; Camping Gaz Adaptor - 01-1665 
weblink; Brownhills Accessory Store  which obviously fits Camping Gaz, although I don't know whether the inside diameter would be wide enough to fill the bottle in a reasonable time.  It appears to be designed for taking the gas out, rather than putting it in which obviously needs to be done quicker on the forecourt.

connected to this hose; Butane 4.5kg Hose - 01-6010 
weblink; Brownhills Accessory Store

connected to this filler to connect to the forecourt pump; Bayonet Flush Filler - 01-4350  weblink; Brownhills Accessory Store

I live only a couple of miles from Brownhills Newark and had a look at them yesterday.  Although the fittings were in plastic packets so I couldn't try them to see if they screw together.

When I bought them I could ask the shop if they fit together and try them.
Do you think this would work?


----------



## lebesset

they don't screw together
one end of the hose is for the adaptor on the 907
the other is for an on board regulator 

in any case , wouldn't use a loose hose personally


----------



## vwalan

hi to fill camping gas at a pump. you need to change it to a thread that will take the pump adaptors . i use camping gas to old butane thread adaptor  then have a propane bulkhead fitting that as been converted in a machine shop to have a left hand threaded nut to fit the lefthand thread that we used to use on butane. then i use the adaptors sold on e bay ....having said that i normally have the camping to butane adaptor then high pressure hose to a male propane fitting and decant bottle to bottle. cant be bothered to put just a little bit in a bottle at the pumps . i fill a big bottle and decant at my leisure . get several fills from a 19kg bottle. 
dont think the adapters as shown from brown hills will all join together. as i,m sure you would be mixing lh and rh threads.


----------



## Tony Lee

> with regard to filling with butane or propane , at a given temperature propane will have the higher pressure ; for that reason it is imperative that you lower the fill quantity ie instead of filling a 907 with 5.5 litres of butane which is normal , you fill with 5 litres of lpg [ otherwise known as industrial grade propane



Why is it imperative.


----------



## lebesset

for the same reason that every company in the world who sells these gases in bottles does


----------



## Tbear

lebesset said:


> for the same reason that every company in the world who sells these gases in bottles does


 
You have lost me as well?


----------



## vwalan

in uk you get the same size bottle butane as 15g propane as 13kg .. and i,m sure you will find marked on a calor bottle test pressure 349bar. so that covers the 200 bar increase tony mentioned. calor use blue for butane red for propane but do actually use repainted bottles that cross over. even so it really isnt that important to just think 80 percent . the tank in my garden regularly gets filled to98 percent . it sits in the sun so i do hope it doesnt explod it as 1200 litres in it . ok not quite. 
i assume lebbeset is working on the safe side . best to do that . hee hee ,


----------



## lebesset

yes , I'm a bit belt and braces which is why I like the measured fill system [ by volume , not weight ]

just looked at calor site as most here seem to be british 

dumpy bottle  4.5Kg butane , 3.9Kg propane

medium bottle 7Kg butane , 6Kg propane 


exactly as alan says ...in the uk they fit a different valve , both in other countries the bottles are mostly  identical , so in spain you get 

repsol   12.5Kg butane , 11Kg propane identical bottle except for the label 

france  energas  10Kg butane , 9 Kg propane ...here they just put a different coloured paper label  around the collar so they can just fill all bottles with whatever gas they need that day ; this company actually marks the bottles with the TRUE content ...industrial grade butane or industrial grade propane because no company puts in an unpolluted gas 

and so on and so forth

ps for alan ; considering venturing back to maroc after a gap of some years ; if used to be that butagas was the most popular brand ..is that still so ? or will the vendor take any french bottle ? bet the price still makes the spanish €1/kilo look expensive


----------



## Tbear

Hi lebesset,

The bit I don't understand is;-

At a given temperature propane will have the higher pressure for that reason it is imperative that you lower the fill quantity

Surely if you put 1 or 5 litres in the pressure is just the same.

Richard


----------



## vwalan

yes i think they will take just abouany french bottle butagas total atlas gas,sometimes red or blue or green,  in the north they dont seem to care . in the very south they like to keep to yellow and green paint and may not take others .then you cant get rid of one of the green /yellow in the north. very expensive 45 dirham a bottle 13 kg and 10dh for camping gas. 
to be honest we left maroc a month early this year. its changing so fast i find it not pleasant anymore. much more police hassle for free parking and many campsites up to 1000dh a night .so i,m told. may never go again i felt that bad about it. 
also its almost like eu now nrw cars trucks every where. no longer a third world country . 
many of my mates are talking about taking a sea bridge ferry to the states or south america this winter .could make a change. the boat goes from hamburg .


----------



## lebesset

T bear 
propane is a gas at ambient temperatures ; pressure liquifies it
because of the higher pressure to which you correctly refer , you need to leave extra volume for the gas to liquify into in case of a rise in temperature , without the pressure increasing  or liquid rising to the point where it could go 'up the spout '

bear in mind that the 80% 'rule ' allows for the fact that these bottles could be sitting in the sun at 50C , ok , a bit belt and braces as alan keeps going on about , but better that than the converse 

I am told that calor actually fill some butane bottles to well over 80% ...hardly dangerous in  the british climate

many people seem to regard the 8-10 bar pressure of gas bottles as high ...in reality truck tyres run at similar pressures !!!! and there are now  GRP lpg bottles  ; if you want high pressure get an oxygen cylinder ...200 bar  or a scuba air tank ...300 bar ...I presume the steel is better quality than lpg tanks 

at the other extreme when you squirt some furniture polish out of an aerosol the propellant is probably propane !!! but as the container is about the thickness of a razor blade the fill is probably something like 10 % !

alan ..tks for that ; she who must be obeyed is agin it anyway , so sounds like the end of it 
and hamburg to the USA ...much better roro  europort to jacksonville , florida may be the pits but from there it is an easy trip down to mexico where you would feel right at home , especially when you saw an old pickup running on lpg , bottle of gas in the back , rubber tube running into the carb via a hole in the air filter ; alternatively I40 across to NM/arizona fabulous in the winter desert weather [ try quartsite ] of course for that you will have to get over the rockies at flagstaff , so go early in case of snow [ if not they do a public lecture series christmas / new year at the lowell observatory , well worth attending as you get a tour as well


----------



## Tony Lee

lebesset said:


> for the same reason that every company in the world who sells these gases in bottles does


 

Has absolutely nothing to do with the different pressures of Butane and Propane. That same pressure/temperature relationship is there whether the bottle is 99% full of liquid or 1% full of liquid.
 Does have to do with allowing a greater safety margin in what is essentially an automated process filling bottles with no overfill prevention valve -- and of course charging considerably more money for considerably less gas might have something to do with it as well.


Many of the bottles seem to be clearly marked either "Butane" or "Propane" but once it is refilled from an autogas dispenser, that marking is likely to be wrong.  Does this matter??



> propane is a gas at ambient temperatures ; pressure liquifies it
> because of the higher pressure to which you correctly refer , you need to leave extra volume for the gas to liquify into in case of a rise in temperature , without the pressure increasing or liquid rising to the point where it could go 'up the spout '



Sigh!!!!!!

This really is getting more outlandish as the thread progresses.


----------



## Tony Lee

> [PDF]
> Auto LPG - Speed
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
> Liquid LPG evaporates to produce about 250 times its volume of gas. ... pressure increases rapidly with temperature. (See vapour pressure chart). ...
> www.speedfuels.com/Link.aspx?Mkey=NTI=&lKey=Mg==



This pdf document will answer many questions regarding LPG and perhaps needs to be compulsory reading.

A few relevant quotes



> 3. Co-efficient of Expansion of Liquid
> Co-efficient of expansion of liquid LPG is approximately 12 times that of water. This
> property in conjunction with liquid density should be taken into consideration for arriving at
> safe filling capacities of containers.





> Liquid LPG evaporates to produce about 250 times its volume of gas.





> 1. Liquid Density
> LPG in the liquid state is nearly half as heavy as water. Specific gravity ranges from 0.55 –
> 0.58. Knowledge of this property helps us in calculating the safe quantities that can be filled
> in a given container whose volume is known. An LPG container should be filled in such a
> way that there will be a 5% ullage left at the design temperature, otherwise, as temperature
> rises excessive pressures are likely to be encountered leading to bursting of cylinders.





> 2. Vapour Specific Gravity
> LPG vapour is nearly 1 ½ to 2 times as heavy as air. This would mean that any escaping
> vapours of LPG would tend to settle down. Hence, there should be adequate ground level
> ventilation where LPG cylinders are stored.





> 4. Vapour Pressure
> This is the most important property of LPG. The vapour of LPG in equilibrium with its liquid
> exerts a pressure called the vapour pressure and the magnitude of this pressure is
> dependent on the ambient temperature and not on the quantity of the contents. Vapour
> pressure increases rapidly with temperature. (See vapour pressure chart). Boiling point of a liquid is that temperature at which the vapour pressure of the liquid equals atmospheric pressure. Since boiling point of LPG is below 0°C the pressure inside a cylinder is always higher than the atmospheric pressure for temperatures above °C and hence, this is the reason that gas gushes out of a cylinder when the valve is opened.
> From this it naturally follows that LPG cannot be withdrawn in the vapour state from cylinders when the temperature outside is below its boiling point.
> Since, as already mentioned, the vapour pressure is dependent on the temperature and not on the quantity of the contents two points emerge from this property of LPG.
> a) As external equipment i.e. a pressure regulator is needed for obtaining gas at a constant pressure for use in appliances irrespective of the ambient temperature.
> b) Fitment of a pressure gauge to a cylinder cannot indicate the quantity of gas contained unlike in the case of oxygen or other gas cylinders where the gas is contained in the gaseous state and the pressure inside is gaseous pressure.


----------



## vwalan

just about every thing you highlighted as been covered in the pevious posts .worded slightly different but all covered . you may try to complicate as much as you want but its abit like water on a ducks back. 
open bottle when empty ,weigh the bottle empty. (or see tare on bottle).fill required amount approx twice the weight quoted on bottle . after filling reweigh and check, if overfilled let some gas out . ideally dont talk or get disturbed while doing all this . easy isnt it. 
if you dont want to do it then exchange your bottle.  
shall we talk about a frames now or something else like water filters ps. most bottles are marked propane and butane .giving the required amounts to fill.


----------



## Lorry Ball

Who was that footballer every one was talking about yesterday......


----------



## vwalan

i dont know but all footballers and the supporters should be gassed . there low flying words heading this way.


----------



## Lorry Ball

What type of gas makes the biggest BANG !
I suppose the people who know, are not around any more! :ninja::juggle:


Lorry   :drive:


----------



## fofeg101

Lorry Ball said:


> Who was that footballer every one was talking about yesterday......


 Was it Stanley Mathews, I'm not a football fan so he's the only footballer I know...or have heard of, apart from Stanley Baldwin?


----------



## Deleted member 3802

stanley mathews or do you mean bernard mathews he's just died:dance:


----------



## fofeg101

Old_Arthur said:


> stanley mathews or do you mean bernard mathews he's just died:dance:



Was Bernard Mathews a footballer too, I thought he just reared Turkeys, shows what I know?


----------



## Bernard Jones

Tony Lee said:


> ....................
> LPG in the liquid state is nearly half as heavy as water. Specific gravity ranges from 0.55 – 0.58............



I believe the specific gravity of water is 1.0
So if its _nearly half as heavy as water_ the specific gravity would be less than 0.5.


----------



## TOWtal

*Gas Bottles - SafeFill*

I haven't read this thread - Sorry.

But has everybody seen the new SafeFill bottle?
Home | Safefill

We have had some in for customers - very impressive.


----------



## Lorry Ball

TOWtal said:


> I haven't read this thread - Sorry.
> 
> But has everybody seen the new SafeFill bottle?
> Home | Safefill
> 
> We have had some in for customers - very impressive.



Are they only refillable in the UK?
there seem to be no European suppliers on the larger map,
or would we need adapters?

Lorry   :drive:


----------



## Byronic

You should read the Thread, as some of the the Posts reckon "non refillables" are perfectly OK to self refill. Therefore buying the SafeFills would be wasting money,based on the presumption that the equivalent volume SafeFill would cost more?


----------



## TOWtal

*SafeFill*

I think the SafeFill bottle is relatively new this year. So re-fill sites are building.
The main attraction of the bottle is the weight - it's feather light!


----------



## Bernard Jones

TOWtal said:


> I haven't read this thread - Sorry.
> 
> But has everybody seen the new SafeFill bottle?
> Home | Safefill
> 
> We have had some in for customers - very impressive.



Copied from your website; _The refilling of rented gas cylinders is rife, this is illegal and could see you prosecuted for theft; it’s also extremely dangerous_

The legal definition of theft is 'taking away the property of another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it'  I cannot see how refilling a gas cylinder, rented or otherwise would fit that description and have never heard of any successful prosecutions.  Can you direct us to any?  

Can you also tell us why its 'extremely dangerous' to refill anybody else's cylinders except yours.  Perhaps you should tell Calor, Camping Gaz etc who do it all the time?


----------



## TOWtal

Bernard Jones said:


> Copied from your website; _The refilling of rented gas cylinders is rife, this is illegal and could see you prosecuted for theft; it’s also extremely dangerous_
> 
> The legal definition of theft is 'taking away the property of another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it'  I cannot see how refilling a gas cylinder, rented or otherwise would fit that description and have never heard of any successful prosecutions.  Can you direct us to any?
> 
> Can you also tell us why its 'extremely dangerous' to refill anybody else's cylinders except yours.  Perhaps you should tell Calor, Camping Gaz etc who do it all the time?


 
Sorry for confusion - it's not my website. I just saw the product and liked it.


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## Tony Lee

> most bottles are marked propane and butane .giving the required amounts to fill.



Yes, this is given in kg and will be correct for that specific gas.
Good that you got this part correct - but what do you advise regarding the unknown composition of autogas that therefore has different densities making checking by weight inaccurate.



> open bottle when empty ,weigh the bottle empty. (or see tare on bottle).fill required amount approx twice the weight quoted on bottle . after filling reweigh and check, if overfilled let some gas out .


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## vwalan

tony . the filling to 80 percent is only ever approx . if we use a 13 kg propane bottle this can also take 15kg butane as marked on the bottles . are we really going to argue over about half a kilo . we know the main gas in auto gas is usually propane so if we just use the propane kg ,litres we cant be far out. .even calor filled bottles do differ in weight . i know you do try to be very acurate and care that people dont have accidents but come on next you will b asking how we manageon a cold day to a hot day. its not that precise nor is it a detrement if slightly over or under . personally i usually under fill just as a safe bet. i have overfilled a few times too and had no probs.somewhere on the web there is a list of countries and their apprx mix of gases in autogas. i know calor fill my tank then go on to a local garage and fill theirs . i,m sold my gas as propane. i use it for my house and other things requiring propane .yes off road vehicles as well. fork lifts etc. if butane was the main gas i may get problems in winter. i havent asked calor if they ever change the mix of gases it doesnt seem that important to me. hope that answers your question . cheers alan.


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## Tony Lee

It's all pretty academic given the attitude of several western European countries to the refilling of portable bottles. Germany and France have signs at many outlets and spain sounds pretty problematic anyway so that doesn't leave much scope for DIY.

Morocco doesn't have too many autogas outlets and it is dirt cheap to buy one of their bottles - as it is in France where 13kg bottles can be bought for 1 euro consignment and 20 euro for the contents. Cheaper than messing around with autogas.


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## vwalan

i dont disagree with you on that one .i have a maroc and a spanish for most trips .if not going maroc i chuck in a 19kg british . i do sometimes fill either if i have to . in spain its cheaper to exchange .in portugal just fill either . i do sometimes carry the hand pump for emptying local bottles in to mine if going to other couintries where i,m not sure of the score. i do tip maroc into what ever bottles i,m carrying then burn the remains in usage then make sure i leave with a full one. carrying the adaptors just lets you fill if need be. what i cant understand is the cost of the refillable uk bottles in comparison to the german refillable etc. certainly havent bought a camping gas bottle i use in my mazda bongo for years unless in maroc . daylight robbery here. 
have never been stopped from filling a bottle but will admit i dont ask just do it. then go and pay .never been questioned ,but think if you fill a small bottle it could send alarm signals to the garage operators. hardly worth it here on the 19kg or the 47kg very often cheaper to exchange. always better from a big tank. cheers alan.


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## shortcircuit

A bit off topic but this method of getting cheap gas reminds me of a character many moons ago when I served my apprenticeship.  The plant I worked in produced natural gas from low grade quality coal in LARGE volumes.  The calorific value needed to be topped up and this was done by the mixing of propane/butane or whatever.  The liquid gas was held in large containers similar to that seen in refineries.  

This character decided that to fill his cigarette lighter he would modify the refill tube.  He drilled out the bottom of the tube and used a cork bung to seal it.  He then went to a small liquid gas container which would be approx 5m in diameter and 10m long and had a drain valve??.  He would open this valve and once liquid gas flowed would fill his tube from the liquid gas that was free flowing. 

Fortunately we were lucky that we had no accidents.  I understand that in an incident, I believe in Australia, when carrying out a maintenance function ?? the valve froze open resulting in a serious incident.  I believe  that double valves are now fitted on drains.

The point I make is that although you consider you are carrying out the same procedure as that carried out by authorised re-fillers who have build in safety procedures/environment, you are prepared to put the general public at risk to save a few pennies.  Like the character I described, greed got the better of him.


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## Bernard Jones

shortcircuit said:


> Like the character I described, greed got the better of him.


 
Talking of greed why do some refillers of Camping Gaz charge over 6 times the forecourt price of the gas, and more than double the refill price in Spain?
In this climate its perhaps no wonder some people attempt to refill their own.


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## maureenandtom

It's thrift, frugality, common sense if we are pro or neutral.

It's greed if we are against and are ready to use contempt, scorn, holier than thou to reinforce our possibly otherwise valid argument.

You can use the greed argument in any discussion you want.  I've seen it used by those against wild-camping.  We all have.  It annoys me.


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## shortcircuit

The usual reply through rose coloured specs.  To save money filing a bottle not designed for user refill by trial and error practice in a public place with no proper procedures or safety precautions is for one reason only and that s to satisfy your greed.


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## shortcircuit

There is only one thing correct in your post.  In all you say you are prepared to carry out a procedure in a public place to the risk of others. Clear to identify who the fool is.


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## vwalan

i think its time to stop the calling of names. we can have a heated discusion with out it. best to agree to disagree. we may need one another in a different place . only the ones in glass houses dont throw stones. or what ever the saying is. express views but try to be friendly.we may meet up and have a good laugh about it one day. cheers alan.


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## shortcircuit

"only the ones in glass houses dont throw stones" Nice phrase to mollify a posting, obviously not a member of the diplomatic service:rolleyes2:


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## Tbear

shortcircuit said:


> "only the ones in glass houses dont throw stones" Nice phrase to mollify a posting, obviously not a member of the diplomatic service:rolleyes2:


 
Diplomat no but HE does know what he is talking about.


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## Bigpeetee

Refilling reminds me of an incident a number of years a go.

In the mid 80's I was working in Oman (wilding all over the place each weekend)

Fuel at remote location was taken in barrels and decanted into jerry cans via a tap at the bottom.

As the level in the barrel went down, so the flow reduced, taking an age to fill the jerry can.

One of the brits, inserted a Schraeder valve into the cap of the barrel. An airline provided a few PSI to assist in the draining of the barrel.

Unfortunately a couple of the locals saw this and copied, but to get the fuel out quicker, kept the airline on full.

An almighty bang, flash and one had their head completely severed by the top of the drum, the other two engulfed in flames sadly deceased.

On investigation, "No one" knew anything about pressurising barrels etc!!

Moral, IF you understand what you are doing, you can use suitable methods to move a flamable liquid from one place to another, but let someone who doesn't know or even THINK they know can be very dangerous, if not fatal.


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## Byronic

Moral, IF you understand what you are doing, you can use suitable methods to move a flamable liquid from one place to another, but let someone who doesn't know or even THINK they know can be very dangerous, if not fatal.[/QUOTE

And that is the nub of the problem."They" may think they understand what they are doing, but those without a relevant recognised trade/professional qualification to back up their advice should keep that advice to themselves.Or state that they are amateurs. 
It's one thing to advise on a wild camp spot, quite another to advise (encourage) on deviating from accepted practice on gas bottle refilling.


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## vwalan

there was no qualified car people around when carl benz made the first car . we all learn by practice . i have said it before people may be highly educated but may not be intelligent. just  clever at what they have been taught. we dont need qualifications to get on in this world. i for one never passed the 11+ left school at 15 yrs and 2 weeks old . have had many jobs . learnt lots . maneged in super markets ran a very sucessfull garage repair business . been an importer exporter of car spares . managed a fleet of trucks . fitted lpg to cars before the regs changed . but only have a qualification in catering and a hgv licence . (adr +international cpc)some only do one thing all their life .me i think if a human can do it so can i . some may do it better but most wont. now i try to specialise in traffic law and do act as a mackenzie friend in court for motorists . i also build expedition trucks etc for friends . lets not just think a bit of paper is the answer . the world evolves with people learning new things knowing what we know today should the motor car been alloweed to carry on ?the deaths etc in building making .,getting the fuel .carrage of fuel etc never mind the damage to the world /sea by polution..i think today many would ban it straight away. have fun . hi ron if you should run out of gas next year i can fill your bottle . 
we have similer talks in spain .byronic is a real good friend . cheers alan.


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## Byronic

I knew I'd get a response from you; you must have a qualification in touch typing as well now, because that was pretty damn quick.
The point is that a qualification shows that somebody has reached a certain standard,and if belonging to a trade or professional body they are expected to abide by certain standards, yea I know there are exceptions but in general it works.Sometimes a person may be allowed to join the body by virtue of their experience but they have to prove their competence.
As in heart surgery it's preferable(for all of us) that you learn gas skills under skilled supervision rather than by self experiment.


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## vwalan

i did once prospected for a large motor bike club. you could call it an aprenticeship. i,m just trying to keep up the standards i learnt. never do what authority wants but try to do what you want using the rules they made.qualifications only have any value to others with qualifications . many with qualifications are short sighted and never learn what happens before or after their bit of work. some of us try to get a grip with it all. make a good earning and enjoy life. never mind role on november . still not warm here . ha ha .cheers alan.


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## Byronic

People with qualifications are often short sighted you say, yep you are correct and people without qualifications can also be short sighted, the practical difference is the person with the qualification is the one allowed by society to practise legally in many trades and professions. If someone wants to do the job, then do the prescribed training.
It was usually because of mistakes and accidents that many overseeing bodies were set up.To set a minimum standard. 
The setting up Guilds and Professional Bodies is surely what made GB manufacturers of high quality products.


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## vwalan

a myth . it was set up to control workers ,then when the owners of companies realised they had to pay more wages to these people they moved the work abroad. so in turn it was the downfall of british industry. as it is british industry only produced high quality within the british empire others produced high quality in other empires . we used to laugh at others but they are still producing . uk is full of qualified people with no jobs to suit their qualifications and they think they are too good to do other menial tasks. thats the downfall of the british empire and its over qualified waste of space workers . many others come to this country to do work british workers think is below them .


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## Byronic

Not a myth, most workers before the Industrial Revolution were employed in agriculture. When the Industrial Revolution got underway British industry realised that to keep ahead of the competition they had to keep raising standards, hence the Guilds. The GermansFrench did the same and for a while Britain had high quality and standards and of course Dark Satanic Mills and conditions that went with them. 
I agree there are a lot of people qualified for jobs that don't exist these days. I have just been looking at a private hospital consultants lists, 90% were trained in mostly 3rd World Universities.
So why could not some of the misqualified have been trained here instead ? 
Could it be that it costs £250,000 to train a Doc. get it done overseas instead.
 Likewise how can the average worker here compete wage wise with those in Asia.Result Manufacturing jobs have gone, service jobs created, so people train for the service jobs. Big question these and I have only small slow 3 dongle (so to speak)


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## vwalan

the dreams stayed purple. 
i use an orange dongle here .
free wifi now when abroad with my new antenna . cant afford the dongle . 
watch out for the china invasion , had a ride in a chinese mini last winter in maroc  better quality than german. 
the satanic mills disapeared after the first world warwhen mill owners couldnt get wool and cotton back to uk. they set up he factories abroad . but never told workers just blamed cheap labour abroad. uk workers thought they had jobs fr life but that in itself helped the fall of uk industry. and when we broke up the empire our goods werent good enough to stand the test of time. the facts are out there . when the uk workers wake up we will be able to compete again . as a past employer i know its hard to get good workers even the so called qualified are useless. (well most).


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## Tony Lee

Yes, this is getting back to my concerns - often expressed in these sort of threads - about technical advice or short cuts or illegal or dangerous practices being actively promoted in public without the writer giving the slightest thought about the skills or commonsense or technical ability of all or any of the potential readers.
It is called duty of care that we owe to everyone else, and you can often gauge by their reaction to being pulled up for it that they really don't give a damn what might happen if someone does take their advice at face value and something does go wrong. Some bluster and some take their bat and ball and go home and some just run off at the mouth in an effort to cloud the issue.


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## vwalan

and i thought it stared by an innocent enquiry about can you fill uk bottles in europe. been an interesting journey .thought thats what it was about we talk others make their own mind up . its open for all not to get involved in anything that they dont like . or say something . are you clouding the issue.
the original question was answered on the first page and i do believe that the original request got solved. wasnt till the second page that things started to vear away from the first question . but never mind .


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## Bigpeetee

Remember, those of us lucky to have practical skills involving the use of both the brain and hands at the same time are in the minority and getting smaller!

I would rather employ someone who can DO a job rather than have paper qualifications.

Sadly, those that have the skills are becoming rare. Especially those of us who have a range of skills. Generally I have had the attitude "If they can do it, so can I"

A lot of times I've had to learn new skills because I haven't had the money to employ someone, therefor I have a greater range of transferable skills. But I'm also cautious through experience, if I have to do something new, I'll read up or ask questions first before attempting a new task.

Somethings can be bloody dangerous if done incorrectly, but perfectly safe if the correct procedures are followed.

It is our life experiences that will hopefully guide us.

Unfortunately in a way, modern expectancies mean that most people don't feel that they have to do things for themselves and that you have to get a qualification in something.

The repairs to the simple bicycle (even the more complex ones are still simple) are beyond most peoples capability because in this society, most haven't had to learn basic mechanical skills. You either get a new one or send it to a so called specialist.

I had to learn the hard way, if I wanted a bike, I would make a Bitza from whatever I could scrounge.

Necessity is the Mother of invention.

Still, kids aren't taught to touch things in school, lathes and similar are too dangerous, same with chemical experiments etc You don't get far in life without burning your fingers once or twice or getting a few cuts etc.

Any way, it's probably made me into the grumpy, bitter and twisted old git I am now!!

I must be getting old as I've started complaining to the council about things.............


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## Bernard Jones

Its a fact that when British Industry led the world we had far less people going to University, because only the upper classes could afford it.  The overwhelming majority had to go straight to work, however clever they were.   So we had all these clever kids going straight into productive industry at the peak of their learning ability.  Nowadays most of the clever kids are creamed off to go to university where they are trained in non productive occupations....


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## lebesset

have to disagree with you bernard ...the clever kids go to university but they are 'educated ' ... the vast majority are not TRAINED ; exactly the opposite of germany , for example

most university graduates have no useful skill in my experience , they prefer to study easy subjects , chemistry /physics/maths departments are on the decrease

france is starting to go the same way ; last year they asked university students what they wanted to be when they graduated 
85% said they wanted to be civil servants ; words fail me


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## Bigpeetee

A number of years a go I inherited an IT team to undertake a fitout of a Swiss Bank.

They were proudly introduced as the most highly qualified team in London. which they probably were, but what a nightmare, no practical experience at all.

They wrote beautiful meaningless reports and graphs but couldn't grasp that the floor has to be down BEFORE you start installing equipment etc.

When I was in Telecomms R&D I was told I had a new team member, not chosen by me but by personnel dept (he happened to be of Nigerian descent, not a problem as I've worked all around the world in Nigeria) but the "Obligatory" Ethnic minority.

Took him 6 yrs to pass an ordinary degree in electronics, when shown actual components and soldering iron, he had no idea.

Everything had been theoretical in his degree and hadn't touched components!!

I did a fantastic apprenticeship over 4 yrs and did everything in electronics and telecomms inc 4 months on the Craft school, filing blocks of metal, bending sheets of tin (still got my own toolbox I made then in 68) machines, basic plumbing etc

They could and did send you around the world and would be expected to fix anything that was thrown at you.

I taught at the local college for a year or so, when I reflected that I went to college for 3 months at a time compressing a years work into just the three months I was told that no one could study like that. There wasn't an option, you failed, you were kicked out!! The rest of the time was apprentice training school from 8-5.

Hard but a great life skill, sadly missing in the UK these days

Nowadays I know that work is submitted for marking, returned until good then accepted as a final work.  Extra time is given to submit work if you fall behind for whatever reason.

I have experience of Graduates that cannot complete a task by a deadline because all along the way they are never pressurised to do it by a date.

Not all students are like this, some work very well and get the work in by the due date, but those who fail to achieve the given standard are "helped" along the way. They get the same qualification as those who do in time.

So qualifications are being debased and therefore become more meaningless.

PS. Colleges get additional funding the more PASS their qualifications - Funny that?


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## maureenandtom

This is how bottles are filled where I've been for the last month.

I've just had a month in a rented RV in the USA.   New Mexico and Florida with a road trip between them travelling through Texas, Louisiana, Mississipi, and Alabama.   In all these States, but not Mississippi or Alabama, I saw and took photographs of propane filling stations.

In addition to filling the built in propane tank in my RV, I occasionally watched bottles being refilled.  On one occasion I chatted to and questioned the guy doing the filling of a bottle but he grew irritated because I seemed to be a critic of  his method of filling bottles and I didn't continue the conversation with him.

It's a simple system.  Pop the bottle on the scales.  Connect the filler through this or that adapter, fill the bottle until the scales go click and stop filling.   My questions about 80% cut off valves, accidents, legality, did he take into account the weight of the filling hose, and I would have gone on, were met with blank and irritated looks.  I was complicating a very simple, safe process.   When he was becoming irritated he even said, “You ever hear of any accidents, fella?”  I hadn't.

Here's one in New Mexico.  I've got plenty more.


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## Tony Lee

Couple of points to add

Can't fill your own bottles in the US, even if they are mounted permanently on the rig. Just no such thing as autogas bowsers - and why would there be when gasoline is so cheap.

As far as I know ALL bottles in the US do have 80% valves on them but even then, on my fixed tank anyway, they still open the liquid tell-tale bleeder valve as a backup and whichever one operates first is the signal to stop.

The dedicated propane sales outlets (no good asking for gas or LPG if you want propane) also have scales for the small bottles perhaps as a belts and braces if the overfill valve doesn't work.

Have to pick your opportunity to get refilled if it is at regular fuel stations because there is usually only one attendant on duty and she won't leave the office if fuel sales are busy.



> “You ever hear of any accidents, fella?” I hadn't.



and the reason?

Because they are all trained and certified to do the job.

(Damn - one time I could use a smilieface, I forgot that I have wiped them all from this forum and they don't display)


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## Jelloman

*I want this much danger please.*

Come on guys, let's not dig in here. No one is completely right, or wrong. You want to minimise risk, use only trained personel, licenced premises etc. Fine, do it then. On the other hand you are a grown up willing to accept any consequences of your actions, have some degree of ability and intelligence not to endanger anyone else. Go ahead, do it! What is apparent here is the perception of risk that each of us find acceptable. Refilling lpg cylinders is not diffusing a WW2 bomb, nor is it a walk in the park (people die doing both). Some of the H&S laws were resisted but now make complete sense, like wearing seatbelts. On the other hand I wanted to heat up a microwavable burger in a garage the other day. They said the couldn't have one, you guessed it, in case a customer burnt themselves on hot food. So, no risk (apart from choking) equals a stone cold meal. A possiblility of getting burnt means a hot meal at least. 
 **** ! Let's not base all of our H&S laws on the lowest common denominator. If we keep some risk there's always the entertaining prospect of seeing some f**kwit chav remove their genes from the collective pool in a spectacular You Tube download of them trying to microwave their own head.


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