# Wildcamping in Scotland-An existential threat



## barge1914 (Jul 1, 2020)

This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....

<< A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.

I won’t reproduce all the letter but key points include the following:

“I have already spoken to many of you on the phone but feel that in spite of this I should include you in the e-mail setting out the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Councils idea to get as many Community Councils to back a collective approach to the problem we all suffer from – over tourism.”

“We would like to suggest that a law be brought in in Scotland that makes it illegal to park overnight in any place other than a proper Camp site. Be this for small vans camping as well as the thousands of Campervans & Caravans that visit us every year.”

“All this needs to be rolled out "pan Scotland”. We all should apply the same rules and have the same signs as our neighbours in order for this to be effective.”

“Once we have agreement and as many onboard as possible we should involve the Scottish Government because only through them will we be able to resolve this.”

“We have all enjoyed a traffic & litter free 3 months and we see the difference to our wildlife and our own lives. None of us want to return to what was deemed as "normal" behaviour by our Visitors. We need the Tourists but if we are not to be overwhelmed again we help to mange them.”

I was very saddened to read this. An attempt to criminalise an innocent pastime is pretty nasty and while I would be the first to agree that some campervanners fall short of the required behaviour it’s unfortunate that this Community Council has failed to recognise the changing face of tourism in Scotland.

When I was a lad we stayed in a caravan on a campsite for a couple of weeks at a time. We didn’t move around. The caravan was static. Most folk enjoyed holidays like this.

Today’s active travel market is very different. People want to explore, they want to use their campervan to travel and live in while they walk, climb, cycle, paddle a canoe or watch birds and wildlife. They want to be able to move around and park at night in a safe piece of level ground. They will check into a campsite every few days to shower and empty waste and pick up fresh water.

Rather than vehemently oppose this form of tourism I’m particularly sad at the lack of vision shown by this Community Council. They should see it as an opportunity, not a problem. An opportunity to create small, informal parking spaces on the edge of villages or towns where camper vans could park overnight for a small fee to cover costs.

Better still would be the creation of a network of Continental-style aires, again with the overnight fees going to the community. It amazes me that in a country like Scotland, that boasts of being progressive, we are actually regressive on issues like this.

It seems that camper vans are being blamed for littering the countryside when recent events during lockdown have clearly demonstrated the fact that the gross littering of our countryside is by members of the general public, folk from all walks of life. Indeed I would go as far as suggesting that campervan owners are amongst the most caring of countryside users.

While many campervanners don’t want to pay upwards of £30-35 for a pitch in a five-star campsite that has all-singing, all-dancing facilities (although some are happy to pay that) I’m pretty sure most are happy to pay a realistic fee for a night in a budget one-star campsite, or Aire. 

Instead of trying to criminalise campervanners, community councils should be working with us to create a network of such budget overnights. They will make money from it, their local shops, restaurants, pubs etc will benefit from it and we campervanners will benefit from it too. 

I would urge Scottish Community Councils to sit down and talk to us campervan users. There are ways we can all benefit from dialogue and create something that would be good for Scotland, and on a final note I would just add that making overnight campervan parking illegal would mean re-writing UK Traffic law, and that ain’t going to happen. Let’s iron out the problems that exist and create somewhere worthy to benefit everyone. It can be done.

A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.

I won’t reproduce all the letter but key points include the following:

“I have already spoken to many of you on the phone but feel that in spite of this I should include you in the e-mail setting out the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Councils idea to get as many Community Councils to back a collective approach to the problem we all suffer from – over tourism.”

“We would like to suggest that a law be brought in in Scotland that makes it illegal to park overnight in any place other than a proper Camp site. Be this for small vans camping as well as the thousands of Campervans & Caravans that visit us every year.”

“All this needs to be rolled out "pan Scotland”. We all should apply the same rules and have the same signs as our neighbours in order for this to be effective.”

“Once we have agreement and as many onboard as possible we should involve the Scottish Government because only through them will we be able to resolve this.”

“We have all enjoyed a traffic & litter free 3 months and we see the difference to our wildlife and our own lives. None of us want to return to what was deemed as "normal" behaviour by our Visitors. We need the Tourists but if we are not to be overwhelmed again we help to mange them.”

I was very saddened to read this. An attempt to criminalise an innocent pastime is pretty nasty and while I would be the first to agree that some campervanners fall short of the required behaviour it’s unfortunate that this Community Council has failed to recognise the changing face of tourism in Scotland.

When I was a lad we stayed in a caravan on a campsite for a couple of weeks at a time. We didn’t move around. The caravan was static. Most folk enjoyed holidays like this.

Today’s active travel market is very different. People want to explore, they want to use their campervan to travel and live in while they walk, climb, cycle, paddle a canoe or watch birds and wildlife. They want to be able to move around and park at night in a safe piece of level ground. They will check into a campsite every few days to shower and empty waste and pick up fresh water.

Rather than vehemently oppose this form of tourism I’m particularly sad at the lack of vision shown by this Community Council. They should see it as an opportunity, not a problem. An opportunity to create small, informal parking spaces on the edge of villages or towns where camper vans could park overnight for a small fee to cover costs.

Better still would be the creation of a network of Continental-style aires, again with the overnight fees going to the community. It amazes me that in a country like Scotland, that boasts of being progressive, we are actually regressive on issues like this.

It seems that camper vans are being blamed for littering the countryside when recent events during lockdown have clearly demonstrated the fact that the gross littering of our countryside is by members of the general public, folk from all walks of life. Indeed I would go as far as suggesting that campervan owners are amongst the most caring of countryside users.

While many campervanners don’t want to pay upwards of £30-35 for a pitch in a five-star campsite that has all-singing, all-dancing facilities (although some are happy to pay that) I’m pretty sure most are happy to pay a realistic fee for a night in a budget one-star campsite, or Aire. 

Instead of trying to criminalise campervanners, community councils should be working with us to create a network of such budget overnights. They will make money from it, their local shops, restaurants, pubs etc will benefit from it and we campervanners will benefit from it too. 

I would urge Scottish Community Councils to sit down and talk to us campervan users. There are ways we can all benefit from dialogue and create something that would be good for Scotland, and on a final note I would just add that making overnight campervan parking illegal would mean re-writing UK Traffic law, and that ain’t going to happen. Let’s iron out the problems that exist and create somewhere worthy to benefit everyone. It can be done.>>


----------



## izwozral (Jul 1, 2020)

At this rate it will hardly be worth using a MH in this country, particularly if we get recurring lockdowns. 
I wonder if Viki Sutherland has any interests in the leisure industry, i.e. campsites or B&B's etc?


----------



## izwozral (Jul 2, 2020)

Why does that not surprise.


----------



## linkshouse (Jul 2, 2020)

I know it's wishful thinking but she should be dismissed/banned from the Community Council board! It amount to "insider dealing" or at least coercion. 

And, then I woke up!

Let's just hope  CAMPRA can get some influence before this silly lady get's the pitch fork gang gathered.

Phill


----------



## linkshouse (Jul 2, 2020)

I thought a bit more about this.

I have written to the chairperson of our local community council on Westray asking whether or not he has heard anything and stating my position.

It might be worth others writing to their own respective local community associations.

Regards

Phill


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

It won’t come to this, but we are reaching a point where we have to quite simply be prepared to fight back. We are blamed for so much that is wrong yet we are a tiny proportion of the tourism problem. I have been visiting glen coe for decades and it’s popularity is a problem. But the problem is cars who outnumber us probably 50 to one. Also one thing glen coe has in abundance is space, yet it lacks proper parking facilities. What’s there are ad hoc pieces  of ground that have over the years have been used by motorists. 
Its time to to stand up to these people, who view us as the centre of all that’s wrong in the highlands. Also there are some on here who reckon that this problem only applies to towns and villages thinking that rural locations will always be available to them. Well let this be a warning. These highland councils have been watching other councils in more populated areas such as East Lothian banning us. It’s only natural that they feel that they can do likewise. I don’t see any kind of ban taking place, but let this be a warning of how we are perceived, and what can unfold. We owe it to future generations to protect our rights and our freedoms.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Here she is on twitter encouraging people to come to Glencoe.
Strange I thought she stated that there were to many tourists there.



			https://twitter.com/vikisutherland


----------



## jagmanx (Jul 2, 2020)

Twitter or Twatter ?


----------



## mjvw (Jul 2, 2020)

If Motorhome are stopped, What about wilds camper in tents. Last year we where unable to find a spot to park responsibly for the the night due to every spot occupied by groups of tents and a very narrow road lined with cars, I not say this is wrong but would this change be applied to all forms of wild camping.?


----------



## mjvw (Jul 2, 2020)

runnach said:


> From personal experience, any mess I have witnessed has 100% Been left by tent campers, some even don’t bother removing their gear and abandon it.


A local informed me that most of the spot are people occupied by people from surrounding area and the some spot have the tents on reserving the spot for most of the year, I was unable to check this so may not be correct.


----------



## Deleted member 85860 (Jul 2, 2020)

Hi, it seem's that Viki Sutherland may have a vested interest in stopping Camper's and Motorhomes from 'Wild Camping' in Scotland and instead, herding them into overpriced, boring, sterile campsites and Rental Cottages.
This link may explain why! 




__





						About Us – Signal Rock Glencoe
					






					www.signalrockglencoe.co.uk


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

runnach said:


> Read the objectives of the organisation VS represents, or part of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like the’aftermentioned groups’ should be approached for funding to provide a network of motorhome ‘dump stations’ along the tourist routes, and simple park-ups to cater for the ‘perfect storm’ of tourists in motorhomes that Tourism Scotland has invited into their midst.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Let’s try and keep a bit of perspective here.
This woman is an idiot, that no one will take any heed off.
But that’s not the point, the point is she is not alone with her views.
Yes let’s ban all overnight parking in glencoe and that takes care of all its problems.
The fact is overnight parking when glencoe is quiet is not the problem.
The problem is glencoe is a stunning location that many wish to visit, but little or nothing has been done to facilitate this over the years. There is a a good CCC campsite there which provides chemical waste stops for its members. A four hour stay where you can shower, and replenish for £7.20. But due to corona they have temporarily had to stop this facility throughout their network.
Every time the media have a go at us, we never get a chance to retort.
The reason for this is there is no organisation out there for them to look to for an opinion. Unless we get organised things will get worse. I don’t see any carte Blanche bans, but instead a steady erosion of our civil rights.


----------



## hotrats (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....
> 
> << A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
> The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.
> ...


AND SHE IS ENGLISH>


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Let’s try and keep a bit of perspective here.
> This woman is an idiot, that no one will take any heed off.
> But that’s not the point, the point is she is not alone with her views.
> Yes let’s ban all overnight parking in glencoe and that takes care of all its problems.
> ...


So join CAMpRA, help it grow and support the initiative.


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

hotrats said:


> AND SHE IS ENGLISH>


Do you know this as a fact? Can you prove it? It would be useful to be certain as it could undermine her credentials as a local.


----------



## hotrats (Jul 2, 2020)

And before anybody starts, i am not anti English. My granda was a yorkshireman.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

hotrats said:


> AND SHE IS ENGLISH>


According to her faceache page she is from Denmark and went to school in Copenhagen. How do you get English.


----------



## GrahamPye (Jul 2, 2020)

linkshouse said:


> I thought a bit more about this.
> 
> I have written to the chairperson of our local community council on Westray asking whether or not he has heard anything and stating my position.
> 
> ...



As I've posted elsewhere, I'm vice-chair of Fossoway Community Council and they haven't contacted us.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

hotrats said:


> And before anybody starts, i am not anti English. My granda was a yorkshireman.



So what was your point with the " AND SHE IS ENGLISH "


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> So what was your point with the " AND SHE IS ENGLISH "


I think the point is she is an English incomer, with a pecuniary interest in a B&B, using her position in an ostensibly local organisation to eliminate perceived competition. She even eliminates the local campsite adjacent her property from the map on her website.


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> I think the point is she is an English incomer, with a pecuniary interest in a B&B, using her position in an ostensibly local organisation to eliminate perceived competition. She even eliminates the local campsite adjacent her property from the map on her website.


Correction Danish.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

She seems like one for the residents of Scotland to deal with as she has a agenda. As a council chair and relatively easy access to other councils those that shout loudest often seem to be heard whether right or wrong.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> I think the point is she is an English incomer, with a pecuniary interest in a B&B, using her position in an ostensibly local organisation to eliminate perceived competition. She even eliminates the local campsite adjacent her property from the map on her website.


Her origins should make no difference. Should only people born in Scotland have a say as to what happens in Scotland. I think it would seem some would say so.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> So join CAMpRA, help it grow and support the initiative.



I don't do FB. Cant stand it.
But I continue to email folk, including both the CCC and the C&MC, phone others, and I have met up with two councillors in the past 24 months.
I am considering emailing this Danish interloper, who appears to have a large axe to grind.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> I don't do FB. Cant stand it.
> But I continue to email folk, including both the CCC and the C&MC, phone others, and I have met up with two councillors in the past 24 months.
> I am considering emailing this Danish interloper, who appears to have a large axe to grind.



Not the first time Danish Interlopers have had a large axe to grind. I hope you have removed all viking statues now.


----------



## hotrats (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Do you know this as a fact? Can you prove it? It would be useful to be certain as it could undermine her credentials as a local.


It says so in her resume.


----------



## hotrats (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> According to her faceache page she is from Denmark and went to school in Copenhagen. How do you get English.


Well it does say she came up from the south of England with her Aberdonan husband,ok i appologies if i have taken it the wrong way but, it does  not say i n  what i read she was Tullip.


----------



## Borders2 (Jul 2, 2020)

Where she originates is neither here nor there, its where she lives that is the current issue. Rather two faced though it seems. I mailed the community council to say that there is going to be a storm. 

B2


----------



## hotrats (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> So what was your point with the " AND SHE IS ENGLISH "


There seems to be alot of anti Scottish creaping into this foru.m. As quoted,  no racism on here,eye right


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Borders2 said:


> Where she originates is neither here nor there, its where she lives that is the current issue. Rather two faced though it seems. I mailed the community council to say that there is going to be a storm.
> 
> B2



Agreed on that one, Scottish, English, Danish, Irish, there are folk like this everywhere.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

hotrats said:


> There seems to be alot of anti Scottish creaping into this foru.m. As quoted,  no racism on here,eye right


You were the one to  bring up the origins of people.  Where is the anti Scottish


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

Nice to see her husband is the treasurer of the same council as well.  A family caring about their community.


----------



## Val54 (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> Nice to see her husband is the treasurer of the same council as well.  A family caring about their community.



It is a common situation, it’s bl***dy hard to get individuals interested in doing something voluntarily for their community .........


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

Val54 said:


> It is a common situation, it’s bl***dy hard to get individuals interested in doing something voluntarily for their community .........
> [/QUOTE
> It is common i know but can unfortunately end up swaying small councils and committees one way or another.


----------



## Fazerloz (Jul 2, 2020)

Val54 said:


> It is a common situation, it’s bl***dy hard to get individuals interested in doing something voluntarily for their community .........



It is common i know but can unfortunately end up swaying small councils and committees one way or another.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> You were the one to  bring up the origins of people.  Where is the anti Scottish



I am Scottish and I never felt this on here.
Apart from one or two posters I have had nothing but good information and at times friendly banter on here. Sorry you feel differently.


----------



## Lee (Jul 2, 2020)

As much as I love Scotland with it's great veiws and wild countryside.
If this were to come into place, I would probably take the cheaper and easier option for me and go over to Europe where it is easier and more accommodating for motorhomes.
It saddens me to write this as in the past I've had some great times in Scotland but obviously you only want to go where you feel welcome.


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Val54 said:


> It is a common situation, it’s bl***dy hard to get individuals interested in doing something voluntarily for their community .........


And sad so many who do have a personal interest axe to grind. We trip over a surprising number of hoteliers and campsite owners on councils.


----------



## 2cv (Jul 2, 2020)

hotrats said:


> AND SHE IS ENGLISH>



It is becoming increasingly difficult to be English in Scotland. In any other discussion where nationality is mentioned such a comment would be decried as racist. The SNP are gradually achieving their aim of breaking up the United Kingdom.
It doesn’t matter at all where this woman was born, her biased campaigning is unacceptable.


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

All this debate about where people come from is diverting from the object of the original post. Be aware of the opposition, but best not to ruffle the feathers and inflame someone who’s views are already entrenched and driven by a large helping of self interest. A considered strategy is needed to bypass such folks and deal directly with influential organisations... something that is already under consideration.


----------



## antiquesam (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> I am Scottish and I never felt this on here.
> Apart from one or two posters I have had nothing but good information and at times friendly banter on here. Sorry you fell differently.


That can easily be changed


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> That can easily be changed



Oh aye


----------



## Lee (Jul 2, 2020)

As said already, this thread should be about campaigning against this lady and her views on Wildcamping in Scotland and not a Scottish south divide, if there is one, that should be settled somewhere else.
Obviously people who live in the north of the country, possibly have the most to loose, if she succeeds as travel north is much easier for them and they will loose a great asset.
Obviously everyone is the looser if it comes to fruition, mostly the people of Scotland, as they will tourists with there money and local businesses will suffer.
So lets set our differnces aside and concentrate on the problem together.


----------



## antiquesam (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Oh aye


Sounds like fighting talk to me.


----------



## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Come on laddies, vent yer spleens where it does some good!


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> Sounds like fighting talk to me.


Oh Aye


----------



## antiquesam (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Oh Aye


Aye


----------



## Val54 (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> And sad so many who do have a personal interest axe to grind. We trip over a surprising number of hoteliers and campsite owners on councils.



But that is the age old problem, generally speaking a significant proportion of local councillors/representatives take up their duties knowing it will help them influence their wider interests, the effect of that becomes more significant the smaller the council/committee. Whatever we may think about them, the power rests with them and not the silent majority. In my experience, changing opinions only works if it directly impacts on their pockets or their standing in the local community. To that end, local businesses impacted by loss of income would have some sway behind the scenes, equally persuading the relevant tourist boards to offer grants to local community councils to help provide facilities is another angle. To help the latter point, it needs a scheme that can be implemented over time and I doubt the relevant authorities have the time, inclination, expertise or money to invest as shortsighted as that may be.


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Jul 2, 2020)

So I started trying to find something about a Glasgow Kiss and found this....

Weirdly enough it kind of ties in with the subject of this thread too!


----------



## maingate (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> All this debate about where people come from is diverting from the object of the original post. Be aware of the opposition, but best not to ruffle the feathers and inflame someone who’s views are already entrenched and driven by a large helping of self interest. A considered strategy is needed to bypass such folks and deal directly with influential organisations... something that is already under consideration.



Given the current situation, it might be best to also target the local Chamber of Commerce. They should be actively looking for ways to improve tourism ... and in the short term motorhomes hold a unique position (as Scarborough Council has demonstrated).


----------



## maureenandtom (Jul 2, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> Nice to see her husband is the treasurer of the same council as well.  A family caring about their community.



Or attempting to run it as a family business.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Lee said:


> As much as I love Scotland with it's great veiws and wild countryside.
> If this were to come into place, I would probably take the cheaper and easier option for me and go over to Europe where it is easier and more accommodating for motorhomes.
> It saddens me to write this as in the past I've had some great times in Scotland but obviously you only want to go where you feel welcome.



Lee you are welcome up here.
You can continue to have even more great times.
Scotland is head and shoulders better than any other part of the UK for wild camping.
All I would say is due to covid just be careful.
I won't be doing much wild camping this year, and when I do it will be well away from towns and villages.
But once this covid is over things will soon get back to normal.


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

It hasn't come to our community council in the lowlands.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> So I started trying to find something about a Glasgow Kiss and found this....
> 
> Weirdly enough it kind of ties in with the subject of this thread too!



Do I detect a hint of racism there Marie.

I only have one thing to say

Scottish lives matter


----------



## Topmast (Jul 2, 2020)

Having lived and farmed in Scotland for many years before moving abroad I find it very sad that the councils are trying to ban wild camping, in my opinion it is one of the most beautiful places to visit and visitors should be encouraged.When we lived there we always spent our holidays touring the highlands and usually wild camped purely because we prefer peace and quiet,often picking up other people’s litter before parking and checking before leaving that the only sign of having been there was tyre marks.The other thing I am amazed at is the high cost of camp sites especially those run by the caravan club .
I am very lucky living in Portugal now as wild camping is excepted so long as you are sensible we have just spent two days at the beach parked on cliffs overlooking the sea completely free of charge and even had a wave from the G.N.R. as they drove past.


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

The councils are not trying to ban wildcamping.  This letter is from someone who is the chair of what, in England would be a parish council.  She is trying to drum up support for her idea.  There is no evidence that she is succeeding.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 3, 2020)

Topmast said:


> Having lived and farmed in Scotland for many years before moving abroad I find it very sad that the councils are trying to ban wild camping, in my opinion it is one of the most beautiful places to visit and visitors should be encouraged.When we lived there we always spent our holidays touring the highlands and usually wild camped purely because we prefer peace and quiet,often picking up other people’s litter before parking and checking before leaving that the only sign of having been there was tyre marks.The other thing I am amazed at is the high cost of camp sites especially those run by the caravan club .
> I am very lucky living in Portugal now as wild camping is excepted so long as you are sensible we have just spent two days at the beach parked on cliffs overlooking the sea completely free of charge and even had a wave from the G.N.R. as they drove past.



Scotland is not trying to ban wild camping topmast. But we have to take notice of idiots like this. Because idiots like this have a habit of becoming councillors, who then listen to idiots like this. Right now Scotland surpasses any other part of the Uk for wild camping, and there is no reason why that will ever change. Currently we are spoilt for choice, and I see no reason why that will change.


----------



## Wisewoman (Jul 3, 2020)

Hi there,

I'm in a rush this morning and haven't read all the thread but I wondered if it may be worthwhile me sending a copy of my 'Wild Camping With Children' booklet to this person?

IMO theres no doubt about it, a lot of kids have found these Pandemic times hard. Many have turned into square-eyed shadows of their former selves. Many have turned to online gaming. There is a *real world* out there where you can find your more authentic self and I firmly believe that includes children. This is essentially the basis of why I wrote this booklet!

I'm happy to send her one and try to find an address for the lady mentioned in the first post of this thread!

I would be immensely sad if such a WC ban movement gained momentum.
I have joined CAMPRA (sic?) but the thing is I probably wouldnt choose to use an aire, I wild camp in countryside car parks and nature reserves for a very good reason. How many people have wandered around a reserve and seen the gentle glow of glow worms in the grasses at night, heard the rustling of night creatures moving about and an old Brock (badger) emerging from bushes?! Its amazing, its *real*

Melissa


----------



## 2cv (Jul 3, 2020)

An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.


----------



## rabW (Jul 3, 2020)

2cv said:


> An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.


Thanks for that info 2cv, looks like a useful stop for Cobbler etc. trips


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 3, 2020)

rabW said:


> Thanks for that info 2cv, looks like a useful stop for Cobbler etc. trips


Its always busy so you need to book these days.


----------



## Scotia (Jul 3, 2020)

2cv said:


> An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.


There is also an elsan point in the car park at Tarbet a 1/4 mile doon hill from the Slanj not sure if that will be open at the moment though. I spoke to Tom last year when we were up and he mentioned that the council have put a restriction on the amount of M/H he is allowed to let park up over night but there is also the over spill which can use the car park down by the Loch.


----------



## Obanboy666 (Jul 3, 2020)

Slightly off topic but just caught the back end of wee Nicola telling us to holiday in Scotland to support their tourist industry during her daily briefing.


----------



## Scotia (Jul 3, 2020)

Obanboy666 said:


> Slightly off topic but just caught the back end of wee Nicola telling us to holiday in Scotland to support their tourist industry during her daily briefing.


That was my intention anyway to keep within the UK, a friend who lives at Avernish said a few B & B's up that way whom he has spoken to have no intention on opening this year at all.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jul 3, 2020)

2cv said:


> An interesting article today. The Slanj is mentioned, where motorhomers are made very welcome. They calculate that the average motorhome spend there is £47.25. They’re appreciating that whilst they are not permitted to open toilets the motorhomes with self contained facilities will be a very important source of business.



Worth keeping that reference;  could be useful in the future.


----------



## Deleted member 79302 (Jul 5, 2020)

As a Scot it’s so embarrassing to see the behaviour of some folk recently please people ignore it all , go wherever you like whenever you like to hell with the nutters give the halfwits at the imaginary border with their paper boilersuits and masks made from old hotel rugs a wave as you pass park up as we do with consideration and enjoy yourselves


----------



## mikeg40 (Jul 5, 2020)

read the Cameron McNeish reply to her . the man talks sense. personally I have e.mail my local MSP and Fergus Ewing, the tourism minister, about the ongoing lack of facilities, even parking in rural Scotland. We need to work with the councils and local groups to find an approach similar to the continent or the western isles. Unfortunately it needs a lead from government. The LLTT NP tried to encourage private infrastructure improvements since they enacted the camping bylaws but nothing much has happened. we have lots of underused carparks suitable for overnight stops but even finding a water fillup is problematic. Currently government, local and national, expects us to always overnight in official sites despite visit scotland providing links to all the hire companies. as a scot, if coming here, please don't antagonize the locals and be especially considerate to the environment. what has fueled the fires is the damage, littering and even violence locals are seeing on a daily basis.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

mikeg40 said:


> read the Cameron McNeish reply to her . the man talks sense. personally I have e.mail my local MSP and Fergus Ewing, the tourism minister, about the ongoing lack of facilities, even parking in rural Scotland. We need to work with the councils and local groups to find an approach similar to the continent or the western isles. Unfortunately it needs a lead from government. The LLTT NP tried to encourage private infrastructure improvements since they enacted the camping bylaws but nothing much has happened. we have lots of underused carparks suitable for overnight stops but even finding a water fillup is problematic. Currently government, local and national, expects us to always overnight in official sites despite visit scotland providing links to all the hire companies. as a scot, if coming here, please don't antagonize the locals and be especially considerate to the environment. what has fueled the fires is the damage, littering and even violence locals are seeing on a daily basis.



Fine post there Mike.

But I doubt very much if the litter and the damage would have come from us.
We are more likely to pick up litter than leave it anywhere.
The vast majority of us are very considerate of the locals.
We try to park up well away from homes as much as possible.
As for violence that should be dealt with by the police.
I would Recommend noting Reg numbers and reporting such behaviour.

Yes things have to change, right now the solution seems to be barriers and signage. This does more harm than good. Limiting were we can park, and creating over use of some areas due to lack of available spaces.


----------



## GrahamPye (Jul 5, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> It hasn't come to our community council in the lowlands.


Nor mine.


----------



## CarolineK (Jul 5, 2020)

I would be inclined to write to farming groups and to game and conservation groups like the CLA or NFU, the Forestry Commission and Natural Trust and English / Dcottish heritage nd explain the need
Farmers and landowners have been overwhelmed by increased use of the land by people during covid. Gates and blocked, carparks are filled and carparks are inadequate. There is a recognition that the infrastructure can't cope with massively increased usage. Due to parking, litter, fire and human excrement.
This would be a good time to present an argument for Aires, for increased serviced car parks and for access to the countryside to be possible without causing conflict with those making a living from it.
I am yet to have my first van trip (hired my first on the 17th) so I dont have the experience but I do know the issues felt by the farming world.
So, definitely try and strike up dialogue, provide practical ideas and solutions may follow. Farmers are entrepreneurial and that tenner a night pitch fee for a quiet Aire can make a difference.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jul 5, 2020)

rabW said:


> Thanks for that info 2cv, looks like a useful stop for Cobbler etc. trips


 
And you can rest and be thankful when you get there.


----------



## GrahamPye (Jul 5, 2020)

I've had an email exchange with Vicki as one Community Councillor to another and she has calmed down a bit now, having received 500 hate mails (as she calls them!)

I explained the concept of Aires to her and how well they worked in Europe and she was receptive to the idea.

I also pointed out that people were suggesting she has a vested interest, but she replied that she was no longer involved in the businesses mentioned. In any case, Community Councils have a fairly robust procedure for declaring interest in any decisions they make.

As others have said,  getting anyone to join a Community Council (which *is* an elected body - at least it is if there are enough candidates!) is a challenge, much like any other voluntary body these days, so we have to take who we can get (myself included!!) It's also true that Community Councils in Scotland have less power than English Parish Councils, but they do (sometimes) have a reasonably powerful voice in "directing" the thoughts of the County Councils who do make the decisions.

The experiment to regularise "wild camping" around Loch Lomond was widely agreed to have been an expensive disaster that didn't achieve its objections.

Graham


----------



## Wisewoman (Jul 5, 2020)

Glad to hear Viki has  calmed down - though a friend sent me the attached link and it looks likes Cornwall is kicking up! 

read here

do send any counsellors this to additionally  consider re wild camping. It’s one of my ‘hobby horses’   It stresses responsible wild camping and the plus sides of doing it with children !


----------



## Deleted member 25361 (Jul 5, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....
> 
> << A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
> The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.
> ...


Maybe boycott  Scotland for a year and see what other councils in Scotland think of Vicky Sutherlands " ONLY ME" opinion  on which tourists she wants in Scotland and see if it effects their local economy.


----------



## Deleted member 25361 (Jul 5, 2020)

runnach said:


> Yup, she and her husband have their own agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vicky seems to have an ulterior motive  too her request!  Look after No.1 Vicky!


----------



## Debroos (Jul 5, 2020)

GrahamPye said:


> I've had an email exchange with Vicki as one Community Councillor to another and she has calmed down a bit now, having received 500 hate mails (as she calls them!)
> 
> I explained the concept of Aires to her and how well they worked in Europe and she was receptive to the idea.
> 
> ...


In what way was the Loch Lomond scheme a failure? And is it still running?


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 5, 2020)

Please calm down people.  This lady has already had over 500 hate mails.  She is listening to calmer voices.  This furore is giving us a chance to put the case for better facilities to Community Council in the highlands.  While they do not have a great deal of political clout, some of them have access to windfarm money to set up facilities to benefit the community. Paid disposal points are fundable.  If anyone on here knows people with land we could contact let me know please.


----------



## mikeg40 (Jul 5, 2020)

I appreciate that those on this forum are unlikely to be the ones upsetting the locals but the unfortunate minority is as always spoiling it for the rest of us. the glen coe comments are not the wider view but several areas have set up groups to combat the problems. in the tummel/rannoch area the local conservation group that represents the majority of landowners has put up fences and placed stones along the roadside to prevent unwanted parking. there is another local group pushing for LLTT NP style permits but in conjunction with facilities such as parking and waste facilities. every sunday is dreaded as there are literally tonnes of rubbish to be cleared along with damage to be repaired. licenses are noted and sent to the council, police have been patrolling but seem not to do much, resources are stretched. on saturday one eye witness reported about 100 cars parked by the roadside, many camping. hopefully if we all pull together then we can find a suitable solution but there seems to be lack of respect to the environment that has reached unprecedented levels.


----------



## Debroos (Jul 5, 2020)

mikeg40 said:


> I appreciate that those on this forum are unlikely to be the ones upsetting the locals but the unfortunate minority is as always spoiling it for the rest of us. the glen coe comments are not the wider view but several areas have set up groups to combat the problems. in the tummel/rannoch area the local conservation group that represents the majority of landowners has put up fences and placed stones along the roadside to prevent unwanted parking. there is another local group pushing for LLTT NP style permits but in conjunction with facilities such as parking and waste facilities. every sunday is dreaded as there are literally tonnes of rubbish to be cleared along with damage to be repaired. licenses are noted and sent to the council, police have been patrolling but seem not to do much, resources are stretched. on saturday one eye witness reported about 100 cars parked by the roadside, many camping. hopefully if we all pull together then we can find a suitable solution but there seems to be lack of respect to the environment that has reached unprecedented levels.


Good points and clearly true but I still think that motorhomes/vanners are the least likely to create problems and very rarely do so.
Unfortunately we get tarred with the same brush.


----------



## Debroos (Jul 5, 2020)

Wisewoman said:


> Glad to hear Viki has  calmed down - though a friend sent me the attached link and it looks likes Cornwall is kicking up!
> 
> read here
> 
> do send any counsellors this to additionally  consider re wild camping. It’s one of my ‘hobby horses’   It stresses responsible wild camping and the plus sides of doing it with children !



Just read some of it. It's brilliant and so well put together.
But where do you put all the kids at night? And all your tut, games etc....


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

runnach said:


> Speaking with the gent that patrols around St Mary's Loch area, (he is employed by the land owner) his actual words to me were "I never have any problems with those parking up for a night or two who are MH or campervan owners". Tent campers are killing it for us!!



There will always be the "spoilers" Terry, whether in tents, cars or motorhomes. One approach might be to promote specific groups such as WC or MH whose members are signed up to adhere to the "leave no trace" approach. We would need to adopt the wider use of windscreen stickers to identify us and make it clear that we would adopt a "name and shame" approach if locals reported seeing a member causing a nuisance. A bit of self policing might promote a better image, at least for some of us. Just a thought .........


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> There will always be the "spoilers" Terry, whether in tents, cars or motorhomes. One approach might be to promote specific groups such as WC or MH whose members are signed up to adhere to the "leave no trace" approach. We would need to adopt the wider use of windscreen stickers to identify us and make it clear that we would adopt a "name and shame" approach if locals reported seeing a member causing a nuisance. A bit of self policing might promote a better image, at least for some of us. Just a thought .........


The idea is that the aires should be open to all.  Visitors from abroad would not have stickers and would be excluded under your scheme.  We already have CLs and CSs which are exclusive to members of the big clubs.  Having another type of exclusive sites would not help foreign visitors.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Ok let’s get a grip on this situation, and let’s put some perspective on what’s actually happening right now. And furthermore let’s try to see a way forward, because if we don’t then we will suffer.


Perceptions are important. But when these perceptions are based on negative ill informed outlooks they are both damaging to those they are referring to, and to those use use these flawed perceptions as a basis for any judgments or decisions that they take. Right now anyone from a councillor to a large media outlet can refer to us with impunity. They have no one to answer to, and who would the BBC refer to for opinions on wild camping, the C&MC or the CCC, through self interest they would only confirm the views held by the great il informed. We need a national body who will argue our corner, fight back against all of the negativity directed towards us. A body who the media could both communicate with and relate to when these issues arrive. And what’s also important is how we view ourselves. To many of us think negatively about ourselves. Seeing us as a burden, looking to be pampered. We are not a burden, we are being burdened by draconian restrictions placed upon us. We don’t want to be pampered, given special treatment. Just treated like the hard working, tax payers that we all are or were before retirement.

Aires with facilities would be great, and in some circumstances in remote locations almost a must. But if we simply got rid of most of not all of the barriers and signage overnight, there would be a massive increase in availability for us to park for the night. Take one example of how ludicrous a situation we have got into.
I was in Cromer in Norfolk last year. Cromer has one of the largest carparks I have ever seen. You can pay for a whole weeks parking for about £10. You can leave your van parked there overnight, but you cant stay inside it between 11pm and 7am.
Cromer could easily take 40 or 50 vans in a carpark that could easily take around 2-3,000 cars. Honestly it’s that large. Now if councils were made more accountable in law and had more stringent laws to overcome to put such preposterous controls in place, then you would see things starting to change. I am confident that Scotland will in the near future see the light ahead of the rest of the UK. I reckon in the next few years you will start to see massive improvements up here. We already offer freedom to roam for walkers and those wishing to pitch tents, and we are more in tune up here to what’s going on right now. As Cameron McNeish states times are changing, and it’s time that some in local councils, and in national governments woke up to this fact.

The vast majority of us are decent law abiding considerate people not some problem to be dealt with by people who don't know the difference between a camper and a Motorhome. All we ask is fair and equitable treatment based on the reality that now exists in this country. Putting up more and more barriers and signage, and attitudes like those coming from Cornwall have to cease. What’s required is forward logical and balanced decision making. Backed up by action.


----------



## hotrats (Jul 5, 2020)

Fazerloz said:


> So what was your point with the " AND SHE IS ENGLISH "


My point was,it is not only some Scotts who are showing negativity to motorhomers.


----------



## mikeg40 (Jul 5, 2020)

Debroos said:


> In what way was the Loch Lomond scheme a failure? And is it still running?


permits required for overnight stays, only in official spots, LLTT NP had hoped that private enterprise would expand to fill in the gaps but this never happened and even when expanded to include more areas did little to support the community and there are still many issues with the current situation. not sure what the situation is just now as I for one have not ventured into the park during the season for some time


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> The idea is that the aires should be open to all.  Visitors from abroad would not have stickers and would be excluded under your scheme.  We already have CLs and CSs which are exclusive to members of the big clubs.  Having another type of exclusive sites would not help foreign visitors.


That wasn't what I meant and in any event there would be nothing stopping foreigners from signing up. I simply meant that a bit of self promotion of forums like WC and MH, whose members subscribe to looking after the environment, to community councils for example would not do any harm. On the ground we would need to be identifiable hence the suggestion of the wider use of windscreen stickers.


----------



## TheSams (Jul 5, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....
> 
> << A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
> The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.
> ...


The Scottish council could encourage large supermarkets, places of interest, Sea life centre, National trust car parks ( now limited to visitor’s daily ) race corses etc for overnight stays at an acceptable fee Win Win


----------



## mikeg40 (Jul 5, 2020)

runnach said:


> It is actually good this couple participate with their CC, it would also be good if they removed their blinkers, cast their eyes on how it works within countries over the channel and North Sea, to how MH/Camper van tourists are treated with the aires system and equivalent, the benefits this brings to rural communities, in fact, look down the road to Fife Council and what they are doing with for example, Lochore Meadows, and the income this generates for the council.


 I hadn't heard of lochore meadows development before, thank you. my experiences in Fife have been mostly negative and responses from the council have been the usual stay at a campsite, no parking even at park and rides and don't even come into our towns because all the bays are too small.


----------



## mikeg40 (Jul 5, 2020)

TheSams said:


> The Scottish council could encourage large supermarkets, places of interest, Sea life centre, National trust car parks ( now limited to visitor’s daily ) race corses etc for overnight stays at an acceptable fee Win Win


have suggested this to my local MSP. if we all report our problems and ideas, we might get something done


----------



## TheSams (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Let’s try and keep a bit of perspective here.
> This woman is an idiot, that no one will take any heed off.
> But that’s not the point, the point is she is not alone with her views.
> Yes let’s ban all overnight parking in glencoe and that takes care of all its problems.
> ...


Scottish travel and tourism may take notice of a right to wild camp petition. They could consider a wild camp register so in cases of dumping waste people can be culpable, although difficult with tents the MH should get vindicated.


----------



## caledonia (Jul 5, 2020)

It’s easy for us who’s hobby is parking in remote spots in our campervan or motorhomes to understand our wants and needs but when Joe public see two or three motorhomes parked in a beauty spot car park they instantly think we’re freeloading and should be using the local campsite.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

TheSams said:


> Scottish travel and tourism may take notice of a right to wild camp petition. They could consider a wild camp register so in cases of dumping waste people can be culpable, although difficult with tents the MH should get vindicated.



Yes thats the kind of thing that may be required. Fife Council are considering such a scheme as highlighted within their proposals published last year.
And to some extent it could be self policing. It's not in our interests to ignore such behaviour if we witness it.
I would have no problems reporting someone for tipping chemical waste inappropriately. But it's important that if you do this you highlight that you also are a motorhome owner. That way those who behave poorly will sully our reputation, but if we then highlight the fact that it's a motorhome owner who is reporting this, then it goes a long way to mitigate any damage done. Obviously its up to the individual to decide wether or not to approach such an individual, and this could be reported after leaving the stopover. Grey water is a grey area though with many CLs asking you to tip it into a bush. Just my opinion, but I don't view that in the same light as tipping a cassette. I believe as another poster stated, in New Zealand tipping your cassette could mean an end to your holiday.


----------



## maureenandtom (Jul 5, 2020)

caledonia said:


> It’s easy for us who’s hobby is parking in remote spots in our campervan or motorhomes to understand our wants and needs but when Joe public see two or three motorhomes parked in a beauty spot car park they instantly think we’re freeloading and should be using the local campsite.


Then let Joe think it.    Or, even better, let Joe make a complaint then we will know what he thinks and can deal with it.   And then, when the council says there have been complaints, we can answer them.   But there are hardly ever complaints to answer. We think Joe Public complains and he doesn't.  We think that surely he must complain - and yet he rarely does.   We think up all sort of reasons why there is never a record of his complaints - but there aren't any.   Or only rarely and then often from someone with a business interest.


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 5, 2020)

There has been a thread on the local facebook page today about vans parked on the local campsite.  Someone wanted to know how they were going to deal with their waste when the toilets weren't open.  They did not believe that all the vans would have their own toilets.  A few posts put them right.  That's why we need a presence on social media.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Then let Joe think it.    Or, even better, let Joe make a complaint then we will know what he thinks and can deal with it.   And then, when the council says there have been complaints, we can answer them.   But there are hardly ever complaints to answer. We think Joe Public complains and he doesn't.  We think that surely he must complain - and yet he rarely does.   We think up all sort of reasons why there is never a record of his complaints - but there aren't any.   Or only rarely and then often from someone with a business interest.



Possibly we should all just stop parking because of what joe thinks. 
Let’s face it if it left to some joes we would not be allowed on the road, never mind park in a parking bay.
We really have to stop thinking negatively about ourselves.
If we don't, how can we expect others not to do likewise.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> There has been a thread on the local facebook page today about vans parked on the local campsite.  Someone wanted to know how they were going to deal with their waste when the toilets weren't open.  They did not believe that all the vans would have their own toilets.  A few posts put them right.  That's why we need a presence on social media.



Spot on could not agree more.

The great Ill informed, have to become the great informed.

With Knowledge comes reasoning and perspective.

With ignorance comes, exactly what we have right now.


----------



## runnach (Jul 5, 2020)

caledonia said:


> It’s easy for us who’s hobby is parking in remote spots in our campervan or motorhomes to understand our wants and needs but when Joe public see two or three motorhomes parked in a beauty spot car park they instantly think we’re freeloading and should be using the local campsite.


And in some cases they are right


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

channa said:


> And in some cases they are right



No Andrew they are never right.
This is a free country, and it's up to the individual to do as they see fit.
Not some local nimby who has nothing better to do with their time.
I am not or ever have  or ever will be a free loader.
Free loaders don't work for 50 years, and pay all their taxes.
If I use a campsite, which I do regularly, thats my choice, and to have that choice is my right.


----------



## runnach (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> No Andrew they are never right.
> This is a free country, and it's up to the individual to do as they see fit.
> Not some local nimby who has nothing better to do with their time.
> I am not or ever have  or ever will be a free loader.
> ...


 Bill yes they are right, when as mentioned in the whitby thread people are abusing with chairs,tables and in essence camping unless you are condoning such behaviour.?


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

channa said:


> Bill yes they are right, when as mentioned in the whitby thread people are abusing with chairs,tables and in essence camping unless you are condoning such behaviour.?



There was no mention of any of this Andrew.
The original post which you stated was sometimes correct.
Stated only that by not using campsites some would think we were freeloaders.
No mention whatsoever about chairs and tables was made.
You have now introduced that into the debate.

In certain very remote locations when alone I see nothing wrong with putting out chairs and a table.
I have seen cars turning up doing likewise.
Do you have a problem with a car doing likewise.
I don't condone such actions in town or village carparks, such as Whitby.
But in a forestry or remote carpark in the middle of nowhere I have absolutely no issue with it whatsover.
Its all about common sense, and being considerate of others.

But its my choice when I do or don't use a campsite, not some local nimby, who reckons that by not doing so makes me a freeloader.


----------



## Ron Sutton (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> There will always be the "spoilers" Terry, whether in tents, cars or motorhomes. One approach might be to promote specific groups such as WC or MH whose members are signed up to adhere to the "leave no trace" approach. We would need to adopt the wider use of windscreen stickers to identify us and make it clear that we would adopt a "name and shame" approach if locals reported seeing a member causing a nuisance. A bit of self policing might promote a better image, at least for some of us. Just a thought .........


I think this is right - we need all M/h Campervan membership organisations who subscribe to the "leave no trace" approach to band together and approach local councils/ NT/ EH/ WT and the like to promote the idea that their responsible members who show a current membership badge CAN park at their various sites. Possibly, in some places, it may be neccessary to have a time limit or a fee for staying during busy hours.


----------



## runnach (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> There was no mention of any of this Andrew.
> The original post which you stated was sometimes correct.
> Stated only that by not using campsites some would think we were freeloaders.
> No mention whatsoever about chairs and tables was made.
> ...


Technically it wasn’t you I was replying too, it was Caledonia,


----------



## antiquesam (Jul 5, 2020)

CarolineK said:


> I would be inclined to write to farming groups and to game and conservation groups like the CLA or NFU, the Forestry Commission and Natural Trust and English / Dcottish heritage nd explain the need
> Farmers and landowners have been overwhelmed by increased use of the land by people during covid. Gates and blocked, carparks are filled and carparks are inadequate. There is a recognition that the infrastructure can't cope with massively increased usage. Due to parking, litter, fire and human excrement.
> This would be a good time to present an argument for Aires, for increased serviced car parks and for access to the countryside to be possible without causing conflict with those making a living from it.
> I am yet to have my first van trip (hired my first on the 17th) so I dont have the experience but I do know the issues felt by the farming world.
> So, definitely try and strike up dialogue, provide practical ideas and solutions may follow. Farmers are entrepreneurial and that tenner a night pitch fee for a quiet Aire can make a difference.



I'm afraid farm fields are already available at a tenner a night in the club's cl's and cs's, but what people want is the ability to stay within walking distance of civilization. Farm sites are useful but usually in the middle of nowhere. There are 1,000's of wildcamping spots in remote places, but just occasionally it's nice to be near a pub.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

channa said:


> Technically it wasn’t you I was replying too, it was Caledonia,



Are you OK Andrew.
Are you stating that only Caledonia can reply to your post.
Was your post only for Caledonias consumption.
If so may I respectfully request you use the PM system on here.
That way you won't have to be bothered by simple folk like myself.

If winning debates on here means that much to you that you first go of on a tangent,
then take it upon yourself to decide who has right of reply.

Then so be it.


----------



## maingate (Jul 5, 2020)

You are correct Andrew, there are plenty of freeloaders about. They are a small minority of a very large  group, which makes them a sizeable amount of people. They will never change their habits, if their favourite places come under some form of payment or control, they will just find somewhere else.

I have seen them in action and also had the backwash from locals assuming I will act the same.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

channa said:


> Bill yes they are right, when as mentioned in the whitby thread people are abusing with chairs,tables and in essence camping unless you are condoning such behaviour.?



There was no mention of any of this Andrew.
merely that by not using campsites we are free loaders.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

maingate said:


> You are correct Andrew, there are plenty of freeloaders about. They are a small minority of a very large  group, which makes them a sizeable amount of people. They will never change their habits, if their favourite places come under some form of payment or control, they will just find somewhere else.
> 
> I have seen them in action and also had the backwash from locals assuming I will act the same.



I would reply, but I am not allowed to owing to the fact it was directed towards Andrew.


----------



## Picket (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Here she is on twitter encouraging people to come to Glencoe.
> Strange I thought she stated that there were to many tourists there.
> 
> 
> ...


Not exactly a prolific twitterer at that though.


----------



## Debroos (Jul 5, 2020)

Ron Sutton said:


> I think this is right - we need all M/h Campervan membership organisations who subscribe to the "leave no trace" approach to band together and approach local councils/ NT/ EH/ WT and the like to promote the idea that their responsible members who show a current membership badge CAN park at their various sites. Possibly, in some places, it may be neccessary to have a time limit or a fee for staying during busy hours.


I guess a case could be made that if 'leave no trace' campers were in an area then they could help look after it by prompt reporting of antisocial behaviour...


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Picket said:


> Not exactly a prolific twitterer at that though.



No but she clearly is inviting folk to come to Glencoe.
Unless you do so in a Motorhome apparently


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> I would reply, but I am not allowed to owing to the fact it was directed towards Andrew.


I would reply as well but its all getting a bit pedantic even if tongue in cheek and I'm certainly not starting to pm people, it was clear tha Andrew was referring ti Caledonia's post, it was quoted .....


----------



## Picket (Jul 5, 2020)

maingate said:


> Given the current situation, it might be best to also target the local Chamber of Commerce. They should be actively looking for ways to improve tourism ... and in the short term motorhomes hold a unique position (as Scarborough Council has demonstrated).



I would hate to think I would not be allowed to visit Scotland by motorhome, defiantly the best way to see the country.
The economy would certainly suffer, as would our mental state.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> I would reply as well but its all getting a bit pedantic even if tongue in cheek and I'm certainly not starting to pm people, it was clear tha Andrew was referring ti Caledonia's post, it was quoted .....



Are you seriously saying that if I post something right now regarding your post that only you can reply. That no other poster on here should do so.
Seriously.

when you post on a public forum for everyone to read something.
everyone has a right of reply.


----------



## Picket (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Do I detect a hint of racism there Marie.
> 
> I only have one thing to say
> 
> Scottish lives matter


Motorhomer's lives matter


----------



## Picket (Jul 5, 2020)

GrahamPye said:


> I've had an email exchange with Vicki as one Community Councillor to another and she has calmed down a bit now, having received 500 hate mails (as she calls them!)
> 
> I explained the concept of Aires to her and how well they worked in Europe and she was receptive to the idea.
> 
> ...


Aires are definitely the way to go, not just in Scotland but for the whole of the British Isles. The major supermarkets & the ferry companies could collaborate with the various tourist boards & business organisations. I have approached several in the past but being just "a man in a van" was dismissed out of hand. Maybe if someone with clout was to get involved it might be a different matter. After all the economy is in need of all the help it can get, judging from reports of motorhome sales the business is there.


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Are you seriously saying that if I post something right now regarding your post that only you can reply. That no other poster on here should do so.
> Seriously.
> 
> when you post on a public forum for everyone to read something.
> everyone has a right of reply.


Exactly, no further comment ............


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> Exactly, no further comment ............



Exactly what exactly 

So you have never replied to a post not directed at you.
If we all did that, there would be no forum, no discussion.

Oh and bye the way you just did


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

Ok I'm hooked, Andrew's post was quite clear, he quoted Caledonia's post so that's what he was referring to. He was also quite clear that the stuff about "putting out tables and chairs etc" came from the Whitby thread. You then proceeded to ask if he was ok, as if he was "confused". If he was, then I'm in the same boat as I understood what he meant


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> Ok I'm hooked, Andrew's post was quite clear, he quoted Caledonia's post so that's what he was referring to. He was also quite clear that the stuff about "putting out tables and chairs etc" came from the Whitby thread. You then proceeded to ask if he was ok, as if he was "confused". If he was, then I'm in the same boat as I understood what he meant



Val with the greatest of respect the fact that Andrew quoted someones post is completely irrelevant.
Andrew posted something that I simply don't agree within this forum.
Now that gives me, you, and anyone else the right of reply.
I posted stating my views.
At that point anyone else on here had the right of reply.
Just as they do regarding this very post.

You yourself replied to a post clearly directed at myself, and why not.
I cannot believe we are actually having this conversation.

Lets get back on topic.

The fact is I don't think folk who only wild camp never paying for parking  are freeloaders, thats their right to do so.
Go to any beach in summer and you will find hundreds of cars full of folk who pay for nothing.
Are they also freeloaders.
And when I bought my van I was not aware that I was agreeing to support local communities.
The fact that I do try to support local communities, and do pay for campsites and other locations is entirely my choice.


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

Believe it or not my "exactly" in post 126 was meant to convey agreement with your statement, we've only had this tangental discussion because you chose to interpret Andrew's post 112 as meaning you couldn't or shouldn't respond. Don't be so picky


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Val54 said:


> Believe it or not my "exactly" in post 126 was meant to convey agreement with your statement, we've only had this tangental discussion because you chose to interpret Andrew's post 112 as meaning you couldn't or shouldn't respond. Don't be so picky



Val can we Please get back on topic.
Pretty please this is an important thread.


----------



## Val54 (Jul 5, 2020)

But I want the last word ............


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Picket said:


> I would hate to think I would not be allowed to visit Scotland by motorhome, defiantly the best way to see the country.
> The economy would certainly suffer, as would our mental state.



Picket, You will always be able to visit my country in a motorhome.
If we ever ban motorhomes then what next.
Its simply a non starter.
Scotland is and will probably always be the best place in the UK to park up.
And hopefully things may even get better in coming years.

So get yersel up here man.


----------



## runnach (Jul 5, 2020)

It was perfectly clear  my response wasi to Caledonia’s comment , I also never mentioned the intimation of freeloading ,,,but justified my remark with stressing the tables and chairs element from the whitby thread and seen it myself on west cliff. Since time began there is always an element that think we freeload.

One or two of the responses seemed bizarre after that and a couple have been edited it matters not. There is an element out there whether it be lack of education,simple prejudice or jealousy that will always have a downer on us and believe we should use sites....


----------



## Picket (Jul 5, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Picket, You will always be able to visit my country in a motorhome.
> If we ever ban motorhomes then what next.
> Its simply a non starter.
> Scotland is and will probably always be the best place in the UK to park up.
> ...


Thank you for the invite, I'll be there as soon as I can. We were supposed to get married at Kirkcudbright in April. Just waiting for the new date.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 5, 2020)

Picket said:


> Thank you for the invite, I'll be there as soon as I can. We were supposed to get married at Kirkcudbright in April. Just waiting for the new date.



Well all the best to you Picket, thats great. And congratulations on your marriage.


----------



## caledonia (Jul 6, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Val with the greatest of respect the fact that Andrew quoted someones post is completely irrelevant.
> Andrew posted something that I simply don't agree within this forum.
> Now that gives me, you, and anyone else the right of reply.
> I posted stating my views.
> ...


No where did I say people who only wildcamp are freeloaders. What I said was people who don’t own a camper or motorhome and don’t think like us as in Joe Public when they see a a few motorhomes parked in a carpark they think they are only there to avoid paying for a campsite. Trying to convince Joe to provide us with places to park up is not going to be easy as they think these places already exist in campsites. 
Maybe that will be easier for you to understand


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 6, 2020)

Apparently Vikis in box is full of useful comments from concerned campers. They are full of constructive criticism, and ideas on what to do with her ideas. Looks like some on FB have been busy lately


----------



## YES45 (Jul 7, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Do you know this as a fact? Can you prove it? It would be useful to be certain as it could undermine her credentials as a local.


Viki is not English, the


hotrats said:


> AND SHE IS ENGLISH>


My home is in Glen Etive, never knew about this letter, prohibition does not work, we all need to act responsible, just because I live in Glen Etive it does not give me any more rights than anyone else, but having the privilege to live there 52 weeks a year I do have views to share. Just to make it clear Viki is not speaking on my behalf, there are issues like depopulation of rural areas, lack of social housing, access to land to grow food, rural poverty, traveling community rights. A way forward is to start a conversation verbally and not written as written words are so easy to be twisted and misinterpreted, lets not go down the road of "Nationality" we are all "Jock Tamson's Bairns" .


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 7, 2020)

YES45 said:


> Viki is not English, the
> 
> My home is in Glen Etive, never knew about this letter, prohibition does not work, we all need to act responsible, just because I live in Glen Etive it does not give me any more rights than anyone else, but having the privilege to live there 52 weeks a year I do have views to share. Just to make it clear Viki is not speaking on my behalf, there are issues like depopulation of rural areas, lack of social housing, access to land to grow food, rural poverty, traveling community rights. A way forward is to start a conversation verbally and not written as written words are so easy to be twisted and misinterpreted, lets not go down the road of "Nationality" we are all "Jock Tamson's Bairns" .



yes45, yes


----------



## Biggarmac (Jul 7, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Apparently Vikis in box is full of useful comments from concerned campers. They are full of constructive criticism, and ideas on what to do with her ideas. Looks like some on FB have been busy lately


Its good that many people have given her useful comments rather than harranging her.  Shows what a responsible lot motorhomers are


----------



## sashskelly (Jul 7, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....
> 
> << A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
> The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.
> ...





barge1914 said:


> This post came up on the CAMPRA group today. Grim reading. It’s self explanatory. Does anyone know anything about this? Unless the motorhome community digs its collective head out of the sand and comes up with some positive reactions and proposals we may not be enjoying our passion north of the border very much longer.....
> 
> << A letter was passed to me this week by a friend, a campervan user. The letter was sent to Community Councils throughout Scotland asking for help and co-operation in getting camper vans banned from informal, or wild camping, in Scotland.
> The letter came from the pen of someone called Viki Sutherland, who is Chair of the Glencoe & Glen Etive Community Council.
> ...


It was only last week that there was an article in a newspaper regarding a wood in Stirling that had been used as a dump and had litter everywhere from day trippers so therefore its not tourists but locals.We were at the viewpoint at bridge of orchy last year and there are now signs saying no stopping for motorhomes at all as well as no overnight....surely this is blatant discrimination by the highland council as cars bikes cycles and even trucks can stop.I blame the highland council for everything because they promoted the north coast 500 with a view towards lining their pockets but didnt put in place any infrastructure.There are not enough sites now and so of course people including me will wild camp.Yes there are the minority who will ruin it for all but that is the case in any other situation.If Scotland wants tourism then put in place aires either free or low cost as our very very pro motorhome continental friends do.It seems that if this letter is correct then its the usual case of we dont like you but we will take your money...just because we wild camp doesnt mean we dont contribute to the local economy we DO...we buy food drink and refuel dont we?


----------



## peter palance (Jul 7, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Twitter or Twatter ?


legs a 11 if you please, eyes down looking, ok.pj.


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 7, 2020)

caledonia said:


> No where did I say people who only wildcamp are freeloaders. What I said was people who don’t own a camper or motorhome and don’t think like us as in Joe Public when they see a a few motorhomes parked in a carpark they think they are only there to avoid paying for a campsite. Trying to convince Joe to provide us with places to park up is not going to be easy as they think these places already exist in campsites.
> Maybe that will be easier for you to understand



I have just been informed of this post.

Nowhere did I state that you stated that those those who only wild camp are free loaders. Nowhere did I mention you, or direct any replies to you.
I know fine well what you meant after reading your post in Toms reply. You meant exactly what you posted that some locals will think we are freeloaders. I absolutely agree with that. It’s stating the very obvious. But it appears that the locals are not alone in thinking that way.

Channa then replied to your post stating that 

“sometimes they are right”

Who are right, obviously the locals are.
Hence my reply that I don’t think we are ever freeloaders. My reply was directed at Channa, you were never mentioned. 
Then maingate posted that Channa was right that we do have freeloaders amongst us, and that he has been given a hard time from locals because of them. He told us he was not a freeloader, but others were.


Normally I don’t read your posts or reply to them, and from now on that’s how I will continue.
As for me finding things easy to understand. That comment is exactly why I don’t read your posts on here now, or in future. Maybe best if you did likewise. It will make for better reading for everyone else.


----------



## caledonia (Jul 7, 2020)

Well that’s me told then


----------



## Ggohd (Jul 12, 2020)

I once had an English policeman try to move me on from a very quiet off road lay by in Yorkshire. I pointed out to him that I was too fatigued to drive and would be in contravention of the highway code if I did drive without suitable rest. I asked for his name and number and told him that in the event of an incident caused by fatigue I would make a point of mentioning that I was in contravention of the highway code on his instruction. As he was thinking about that I suggested he might like to also move on the wagon parked 50 meters further down from me. He looked uncomfortable. had a quick walk round the van and was on his way.
I have never had this experience in France, Spain or Portugal. Interesting that the busy body is thought to be an incomer, nothing against them at all, but some do need to learn not to bring their attitudes up north.

We are unfortunate that since regionalisation we have lost any pretence of local government, control now lies in the hands of faceless bureaucrats many miles away in a very centralised system. No longer do we have burgh councils consisting of the butcher, baker and candlestick maker.with a local provost who is interested solely in the advancement of his/her community. My experience of community councils is that they are in many cases constituted of members who have an axe to grind about this, that or the other.

The provision of aires is to the benefit of communities and is unlikely to slow down the booking of holiday cottages, which attract a different sort of punter.

The answer does lie with the Scottish government to  legislate for the provision of temporary stopping places, possibly limited to 48hrs and with at least a grey water drain. A tap and sluice would be nice but not necessary. Definitely no electricity. These need not be co-located but as in France could be provided by a supermarket or in the parking next to public toilets, enhancing business. 

If this matter proceeds and the perpetrator is not shot down in flames then it would not be difficult to organise a petition to the Scottish government through this site. I don't know what the membership is, but at the moment 598 have read this thread, so many times more than that could potentially sign, along with other interested groups.

Just at the moment it's probably not the right moment to encourage too many border crossings from the south, there is a sensitivity about the further importation of Covid, which at the moment has only a few new cases and no deaths for some days. But this will pass and things get back to normal.


----------

