# Generators



## fiftysomething (Nov 17, 2009)

Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.

Fiftysomething (and should know better!)


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## l77 tuf (Nov 17, 2009)

all our crowd carry honda with us we all use the same 1s


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## fiftysomething (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks. What size or power would you recommend?

Fiftysomething (and should know better!)


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## shortcircuit (Nov 17, 2009)

I carry a £60, 850watt banger of a generator and use it when I am at Kart meets.  It is only used to keep heating running and to charge leisure batteries.

What do you want to use it for is the main question, which will determine the size and type?

You will get the solar brigade following on but useless at this time of the year.  The noise brigade will also follow on and that is just down to your responsible use.


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## Proff (Nov 17, 2009)

I have a Honda suitcase 600 plus a Honda 1kw invertor type
Both very quiet and both only used on other peoples vans since I've had Solar...
nice to have one, just in case of an eclipse tho'


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## Airecraft (Nov 17, 2009)

Another vote for the Honda eu10 1kW. Never had a cheaper one though so can't say whether the Honda is worth the xtra £.


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## vwalan (Nov 17, 2009)

hi, i carry a kiper diesel big enough to work an inverter welder .grinders drills etc .yes its extreme but sometimes neccasery. depends where you are going. also have a bank of solar panels and 700 ampof batteries .never needed to charge my batteries with a genny but could if needed i do carry a seperate battery charger just in case as the charging from gennies direct is not that good. the secret is dont use too much leccy .i have gas lights ,gas heating . only use leccy for water pump ,telly etc .never used the ehu for mains wouldnt fit one next time. never use sites so its a waste 10 yrs never used it. 
work out what you need the gennie for always get a bit bigger than you need .there is some very cheap ones out there ,they get cheaper all the time.


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi, a 1kw Kipor does for me, only use it to charge the batteries if I've been parked for a few days. The 1 kw is quite economical and big enough to charge the van and laptop batteries at the same time as the telly is on, any bigger would be wasting petrol, space and payload for my circumstance. Hope this helps.


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## bigboack (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi we have a 2kw onan generator built into the van, It was already in when we got it, We use it when wilding for using the microwave, Have used it once to charge flat battery,very useful,and it runs off the gas so we dont have to carry petrol. Its a bit noisey the only down side. But then the baffle is missing from underneath the van.


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## hogan (Nov 17, 2009)

We have a 950 W Spanish petrol generator bought at Carrefour for €80, only used it 3 times in anger no problems found.
If it packed up I dont think I would bother with a genny again.


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## Telstar (Nov 17, 2009)

Oh no not generators again.....

Never carried one, never needed one and will never need one.

Solar Power has seen me alright for years.  Even without, 5 days reasonable use was obtained out of a 85ah battery without worrying.  But then I don't go away to watch TV, power laptops, microwaves or any other power hungry items.  Consider alternatives, gas powered hair straighteners! LED lights, just using the fire on gas rather than the blown heating setting etc, etc

Jon


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## vwalan (Nov 17, 2009)

you have to remember that gennies are a tool .not a necessity they can be usefull .you have to weigh up the inconviniance of noise etc . most long termersend up with solar its cheaper abroad. works better and is quiet. a small gennie for me is useless .i visit way out places were damage etc can be a cause of concern broken springs etc. most things can be used on 12 volt and these days you can get power regulators fitted to alternators of your vehicle to give enormous outputs .a quick drive around should top up batteries .i mamaged for a few years in the truck with only taking a lead off the main battery to charge van battery while on the move. solar now means i can run a compressor fridge etc . gas ones dont work in hot climates . its all horses for courses . i get amazed when someone travels 200 miles to a show then gets a gennie out runs it till late at night .then first thing in morning on it goes untill late at night .what is that all about . takes alot to make a world. cheers alan.


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## Firefox (Nov 17, 2009)

vwalan said:


> .....what is that all about . takes alot to make a world. .....



Good point, Alan!

Went to the NEC show recently and overheard some conversations at lunch between 3 couples which reminded me of the  Harry Enfield sketch with the nouveau rich Brummies: "Way are considerably richer than yow"

They were in actual fact Brummies too, and it was quite comical. 

"Way've got a genny".... "Oh, only 1? Way've got 3!"... "Ours are more powerful than yowrs"..."Our motohome is longer than yowrs"... etc

The real point of the guy who just done 200 miles to the show  and then running his genny was to proclaim to all his neighbours he's got one. Strange, but that's how it works


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

I'd like to add my voice to the anti-generator brigade. There is nothing worse than pulling up in an ideal quiet spot only to have another van pull up beside you and get out the bloody noise-generating machine. We have a solar panel which provides all our off-site needs (including recharging mobile and laptop and powering the television if you must). If you want to generate power at night, try a wind generator - they are quiet and disturb no-one.


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## johnybegood (Nov 17, 2009)

I carry Honda 3200 model, drives Alde heating or Dometic air con, pumps out 16 amps weighs 75kg and uses 25lt fuel in 14 hours. 89db @7metres.
Excellent bit of kit.
Jbg


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

John H said:


> I'd like to add my voice to the anti-generator brigade. There is nothing worse than pulling up in an ideal quiet spot only to have another van pull up beside you and get out the bloody noise-generating machine. We have a solar panel which provides all our off-site needs (including recharging mobile and laptop and powering the television if you must). If you want to generate power at night, try a wind generator - they are quiet and disturb no-one.



  You're opinion perhaps ,but not what the O.P. was asking, the pro anti thing has been done before methinks.


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## rickboy (Nov 17, 2009)

*Generator.*




fiftysomething said:


> Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.
> 
> Fiftysomething (and should know better!)



Hi. Have you camped without one?

 I just use extra batteries from a scrap yard  or better still  standby power AGM batteries once taken out of service after 5 Years (They usually are good for 10) not wired in perminantly to give maximum flexibility.(you need more in the winter and less in summer)

You can recharge via an inverter and a regular battery charger from the van battery and let the alternator recharge the van.(will have a mucher higher charge rate than goes to the leisure battery if you have one installed).DONT RUN THE VAN BATTERY DOWN SO IT DOESNT START THE VAN.

Best to calculate your amps usage ,double it and take batteries to match.ie 100ams usage take 2 x100ah batteries and dont run them down too much.There are loads of articals  about batteres to confuse you.You will be an expert by the time you finish motorhoming.

I have a 2 stroke 950 w  cheap generator,be aware they may damage sensative equipment like  modern electronic chargers ,control panels,lcd tv ect.
I would hesitate pluging it directly into a moden motorhome!!!


Try the cheapest ,easiest options unill you know your needs unless you like supporting the Chinese economy that much.

I use my camper for skiing with no electric hook up ,solar or generator,works for me.!!! WE have good lighting and watch tv a lot.

I take a splitter to double up onto someones generator but have never needed it yet.(polite thing to do is offer a bottle of wine ect, quite  a common practice in France I noticed).

Everyone has they own solution to this challenge,just experiment first,maybe borrow a genertor before splashing the cash.

Best of luck

Ifb


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## Firefox (Nov 17, 2009)

rickboy said:


> You can recharge via an inverter and a regular battery charger from the van battery and let the alternator recharge the van.(will have a mucher higher charge rate than goes to the leisure battery if you have one installed).DONT RUN THE VAN BATTERY DOWN SO IT DOESNT START THE VAN.



Blimey, I've never heard that angle before! You're stepping up the voltage with an inverter and then stepping back down with a 240v - 12v charger, probably losing 20-25% efficiency in the process, as well as (possibly) risking the van battery if you're not careful. I think I'd rather just charge the leisure battery off the alternator and accept any inefficiencies in the process


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

rickboy said:


> ;
> 
> I just use extra batteries from a scrap yard  or better still  standby power AGM batteries once taken out of service after 5 Years (They usually are good for 10)



  Tell me more, sounds good.


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> You're opinion perhaps ,but not what the O.P. was asking, the pro anti thing has been done before methinks.



The original question WAS asking whether any of us had generators or not and what we would recommend, so if I can turn one person away from the noisy beasts then I am happy.


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## Airecraft (Nov 17, 2009)

John H said:


> There is nothing worse than pulling up in an ideal quiet spot only to have another van pull up beside you and get out the bloody noise-generating machine.



Inconsiderate people don't need a generator to spoil your day, they have stereos and unruly kids for that. I wouldn't dream of running a generator within earshot of anyone else and physically check it cannot be heard near another 'van.



John H said:


> If you want to generate power at night, try a wind generator - they are quiet and disturb no-one.



I spent £500 on a wind generator for my boat and removed it after 6 months because of the noise and vibration; I use a genny on board now which is much quieter.


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

a,  correct

  b,  correct


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## vwalan (Nov 17, 2009)

derek keep your eyes on ebay or have a word with a factory maintenance man . they swap them and get rid of them often .i find big truck batteries work for me.did invest in a 24 volt to 12volt charger from durite, works atreat . but if parked disconect trailer belt n braces , keep one 12 volt in truck so its always getting charged .then run a cable to others in trailer, on a suzie type conector when on the move. dont like gennies but sometimes they are a must. tried welding from batteries not good. used to carry oxy acet. but these new inverter welders are as light as a pair of shoes in a shoe box .cheers alan.


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

Aire_on_a_shoestring said:


> Inconsiderate people don't need a generator to spoil your day, they have stereos and unruly kids for that. I wouldn't dream of running a generator within earshot of anyone else and physically check it cannot be heard near another 'van.



Unfortunately, there are many people who are not as considerate as you - and a lot of them have parked next to me. On the other hand, when people with wind generators park next to me I hear nothing.


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

John H said:


> The original question WAS asking whether any of us had generators or not and what we would recommend, so if I can turn one person away from the noisy beasts then I am happy.



   The original question was,
'Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great. Many thanks.'


  Not alternatives designed not to offend people who are not likely to be in earshot of said gennie anyway!


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> The original question was,
> 'Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great. Many thanks.'
> 
> 
> Not alternatives designed not to offend people who are not likely to be in earshot of said gennie anyway!



You're not a professional politician are you? Look again at the FIRST part of the original question and then tell me why you are so anxious for me not to give an answer to it. As for the bit about not offending people who are not likely to be in earshot, all I can say is that if I hadn't been in earshot of a generator how would I know that they bloody annoy me - even the so-called quiet ones? You may like them but you are not entitled to tell me that I am not allowed to dislike them. Others can make their choices but the important thing is that there is a choice


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

John H said:


> You're not a professional politician are you? Look again at the FIRST part of the original question and then tell me why you are so anxious for me not to give an answer to it. As for the bit about not offending people who are not likely to be in earshot, all I can say is that if I hadn't been in earshot of a generator how would I know that they bloody annoy me - even the so-called quiet ones? You may like them but you are not entitled to tell me that I am not allowed to dislike them. Others can make their choices but the important thing is that there is a choice



'Do any/many/most of you carry a generator?'

  You mean that part? Nowhere  do I see a plea for a rant about, noisy bloody antisocial gennies, more a question about what size and make suits those who do use them and why the criteria suits or not. Seems quite a lot of things that campers do annoys you.


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> 'Do any/many/most of you carry a generator?'
> 
> You mean that part? Nowhere  do I see a plea for a rant about, noisy bloody antisocial gennies, more a question about what size and make suits those who do use them and why the criteria suits or not. Seems quite a lot of things that campers do annoys you.



Yes that part - to which my answer is no, for the reasons stated. As for the bit about lots of things annoying me, the only things I recall complaining about on this site are noisy generators, dog-fouling and not joining the euro when it stood at 1.50 to the pound. Are you in favour of dog fouling and paying more for trips to Europe?


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 17, 2009)

John H said:


> the only things I recall complaining about on this site are noisy generators, dog-fouling and not joining the euro when it stood at 1.50 to the pound.



  And dinette tables!!!


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## John H (Nov 17, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> And dinette tables!!!



You've got me! Happy travels


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## guerdeval (Nov 17, 2009)

I had a gasparini 12 volt genny on my last van, after all its 12 volt batteries you're trying to recharge. It worked on lpg, very good.


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## rickboy (Nov 17, 2009)

*agm battery*




derekfaeberwick said:


> Tell me more, sounds good.



Derek I will tell you a little more.(but not where I get mine,sorry)

AGM (absorbrd glass matt) batteries are usually sealed ,heavy lead batteries used for computer and lighting standby  power among many other uses.If you can find the people who change them over  on a date basis they are a good cheap source of 12v power.They are often used in series so watch the polarity markings.Hawker(yes the plane people)
Powersafe red batteries are one of the best.Google it and see the new price,best sit down first ,there is a lot of lead in them thats why they last well and are tollerant of deep cycling and low temps with a long shelf life.
Dont try to boost charge them,give them some time.You will see agm's sold as leisure batteries,I have one.But the quality of the commercial stuff is much better.Ex military stuff can be good,they use them in aircraft and tanks ect.Motorsport folks use them because they are sealed and very rugged.
Good luck.


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## rickboy (Nov 18, 2009)

*Hawker agm battery*

Derek   -Like this one on eBay item no 400068116850

An sbs 60 is actually 50ah -advantage is you can run them quite low and they will recharge well,so a lot of their capacity is usable.

But they are very heavy due to high lead content.Try to source locally,anywhere they have computor systems they will have a backup power supply.

Power to the people.


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## bigboack (Nov 18, 2009)

*Noise.*

Dont think anyone noticed when I switched the gene on while at Hayfield,if they did i didnt hear them with all the noise.


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 18, 2009)

bigboack said:


> Dont think anyone noticed when I switched the gene on while at Hayfield,if they did i didnt hear them with all the noise.



 I know of someone who heard it, and he was in Scotland at the time!


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## fred ee (Nov 19, 2009)

Generators come with the territory (of living away from mains power). Solar panels are useless in N. Europe in winter, useful in summer or the sunny Med. Many MHers use their vehicles in winter, ergo a generator is 'useful' or even necessary for the longer periods away from base.

Get over the noise problem people. Like I said, gennies come with the territory. You knew that when you bought your MH (or should have!).

The only caveat to gennie users is 'be reasonable' with the times you run 'em. Most folk are.


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## John H (Nov 19, 2009)

fred ee said:


> Solar panels are useless in N. Europe in winter, useful in summer or the sunny Med. Many MHers use their vehicles in winter, ergo a generator is 'useful' or even necessary for the longer periods away from base.



I knew there was a reason why I like to spend my winters in the Med - that must be it!


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## biggirafe (Nov 19, 2009)

fred ee said:


> Generators come with the territory  Many MHers use their vehicles in winter, ergo a generator is 'useful' or even necessary for the longer periods away from base.
> 
> Get over the noise problem people. Like I said, gennies come with the territory. You knew that when you bought your MH (or should have!).



Why? Whats so nessasary that you need to run a flippin geny, why go out into the countryside wilding if all you want to do is pollute it with noise and exhaust, whats so important, television, having a microwave????

I don't get it. I have never found a need for a generator in 35 years of camping and now MH'ing.

If you wanna use a geny thats fine so long as I can't hear it but why not find ways of not using up your batterys instead, maybe get some LED lights, double up your battery, read books and not watch telly. Cook on gas and not use a microwave. The possiblitys are endless there are plenty of people here who last days without having to top up the batterys.

_You knew that when you bought your MH (or should have!)._
I don't think so (and please don't tell me what I should know or think) ,oooh can I spend 17k on my motorhome and btw I think I will need a generator as well as the on board electrics are not going to be good enough. 

Just my umble opinion of course


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## vwalan (Nov 19, 2009)

there is atime and place for gennies. cant weld broken springs without them .for normal camping m,homing i dont need a gennie .its an insurance hopefully i wont need to use it. does get used though due to the extreme adventures we under take in our trucks. grinders asnd drills used the most but once snapped two sets of springs on the trailer up a mountain in maroc so had to do it. have fun we do. cheers alan.


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## biggirafe (Nov 19, 2009)

vwalan said:


> there is atime and place for gennies. cant weld broken springs without them .for normal camping m,homing i dont need a gennie .its an insurance hopefully i wont need to use it. does get used though due to the extreme adventures we under take in our trucks. grinders asnd drills used the most but once snapped two sets of springs on the trailer up a mountain in maroc so had to do it. have fun we do. cheers alan.



I can see your point mate, I'm sure if I was off to the mountains for a few months I would take a geny, as you say you can't run a welder off of a car battery
Some seem to need em for a few days in Wales


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 19, 2009)

guerdeval said:


> I had a gasparini 12 volt genny on my last van, after all its 12 volt batteries you're trying to recharge. It worked on lpg, very good.



I agree I have one on my MH  Very very quiet I feel the vibration more inside the van than any noise outside.  I can go to sleep with it on so it is very quiet


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## fred ee (Nov 19, 2009)

vwalan said:


> there is atime and place for gennies. cant weld broken springs without them .for normal camping m,homing i dont need a gennie .its an insurance hopefully i wont need to use it. does get used though due to the extreme adventures we under take in our trucks. grinders asnd drills used the most but once snapped two sets of springs on the trailer up a mountain in maroc so had to do it. have fun we do. cheers alan.



Exactly. Couldn't agree more. When they're needed, there's no substitute.

I use my quiet Honda to top up my batteries only when I need to and with due consideration. If I stay put at a location for up to a week, as I often do, it's not a choice, it's essential. However, a couple of times during my recent 10 weeks off-hook-up touring in Brittany, several people (without generators) ran their (noisy) engines for up to 2 hours to charge their batteries. A clattering diesel makes far more noise than a quiet petrol genny but I wonder if the anti-generator brigade have anything to say against that practice? Personally, as I said before, noise comes with the territory and is part of life. I further suspect that many of the 'moaners' will not think twice about pitching up at a place close to a busy road and not think twice about the road noise. For some totally inexplicable reason, it's only 'generators' (not noise per se) that get their goat!

I suspect many of the 'anti' brigade just do weekends away and don't need the services of additional power when the sun don't shine and the days are short.

And, BTW, I also pull a toad all over Europe for months at a time and have never been stopped, arrested, fined, questioned, warned or otherwise been made to feel I was breaking some law. 

There seem to be a lot of myth-makers out there but fortunately they dwell only in 'forum-land.' The real world, fortunately, is just fine.


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## maingate (Nov 19, 2009)

I have a suspicion that there might have been a little dig at me in there somewhere Fred.

I will coin an old saying but in my case its true.

I was in Baghdad when you were still in your dads bag.


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## John H (Nov 19, 2009)

fred ee said:


> A clattering diesel makes far more noise than a quiet petrol genny but I wonder if the anti-generator brigade have anything to say against that practice? Personally, as I said before, noise comes with the territory and is part of life. I further suspect that many of the 'moaners' will not think twice about pitching up at a place close to a busy road and not think twice about the road noise. For some totally inexplicable reason, it's only 'generators' (not noise per se) that get their goat!
> 
> I suspect many of the 'anti' brigade just do weekends away and don't need the services of additional power when the sun don't shine and the days are short.



I love a good argument, so here goes! Yes I do have something to say about running diesel engines to charge up batteries - and you'll find out what it is if you ever park up next to me and do it. And, no I am not a "weekender". Although I technically live in a house for 3 months every year, in practice it is a lot less - so I am a long-terming complainer! As for the "noise per se" bit, it depends on where you are. If I park up next to a busy road (which I rarely do) then of course noise comes with the territory. What I object to is finding a lovely quiet spot somewhere where the church bells or the cows are the only noise (part of the territory) and then having some idiot park next to me, get out his generator and run it all night so he can listen to "Strictly Come Prancing" or whatever. That is most definitely not part of the territory - unless you live in a different territory to me.


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## fred ee (Nov 19, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.
> 
> Fiftysomething (and should know better!)



Sorry, Fiftysomething; there has been a bit if thread-drift going on 

In answer to your original post, more people carry generators than not, I believe. On my frequent and lengthy travels here and abroad I have spotted the 'little red Honda' (or similar) in other peoples underfloor lockers more often than not.  It's a form of insurance. You'll never know when you'll need it but there will always be a time when you will be glad you're carrying one.

FWIW, I have a Honda EU2.0. For my particular circumstances, I find it more useful to have a 2.0 rather than a 1.0 Kw.


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## vwalan (Nov 19, 2009)

big kipor diesel thinkmits 3kw. it is niosy very . i did carry a 1.3kw genforce but it is not big enough to be usefull for me. that was niosy as well. when you hear my gennie there is work to be done . dont like to use it for anything else or i would fall out with myself its that bad.
if you complain you will probably asked if you like sex n travel. ha ha


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 19, 2009)

fred ee said:


> Sorry, Fiftysomething; there has been a bit if thread-drift going on
> 
> In answer to your original post, more people carry generators than not, I believe. On my frequent and lengthy travels here and abroad I have spotted the 'little red Honda' (or similar) in other peoples underfloor lockers more often than not.  It's a form of insurance. You'll never know when you'll need it but there will always be a time when you will be glad you're carrying one.
> 
> FWIW, I have a Honda EU2.0. For my particular circumstances, I find it more useful to have a 2.0 rather than a 1.0 Kw.



a)  If you are Wilding, and if you're a member, I assume you will be, then agreed.

b)  No question, a definite.

c)  The whole point of your question, 1 kw. does me. 0  kw. I might be in bother, for me it's a back up so I can overstay if I have found a place I don't want to leave, even in the North of Scotland in winter. It has happened and will again.


  Never mind those with blinkers, if you need power in the short days of a British winter then get a gennie, the size is the only issue. IMHO.


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## guerdeval (Nov 19, 2009)

If you google 'EFOY GENERATORS' they put forward a strong argument why running their genny for shorter periods as and when necessary is more economical than running any petrol/diesel generator producing 230volts then onward charging your 12volt batteries, if you're so desperate to run 230volt appliances then why not stay at home or a hotel, travellodge are doing rooms for Easter at £9!! , if you want to charge your batteries you can do it silently with an Efoy or almost silently with a gasparini.


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## coolasluck (Nov 19, 2009)

For me on full timing i will be going with a gasperini on a better to have than not policy.Untill then it will be weekends for us and weeks here and there so i will go for a cheap noisy polluting one that will disturb everyone.Hope this helps


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 19, 2009)

guerdeval said:


> If you google 'EFOY GENERATORS' they put forward a strong argument why running their genny for shorter periods as and when necessary is more economical than running any petrol/diesel generator producing 230volts then onward charging your 12volt batteries, if you're so desperate to run 230volt appliances then why not stay at home or a hotel, travellodge are doing rooms for Easter at £9!! , if you want to charge your batteries you can do it silently with an Efoy or almost silently with a .



 Because I am skint?

  E Foy are stupid money and Gasparini I had never heard of.

  I suspect they might be a wee bit dear as well, but if anyone has one that needs testing I'm your man!


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## shortcircuit (Nov 19, 2009)

I no this is unfair but when I read all the anti generator brigade with their solar panel, gas fires, led lights, paper backs and no tele etc, I immediately think of Ebenezer Scrooge sitting there counting his pennies by candle light with his fingerless gloves on, balaclava and chittering with ice off his nose .

What is life about.  We have the technology to enjoy the outdoors and as I stated originally concerning  generators, its "just down to your responsible use."

I have had a couple of instances when I had electrical/battery problems and the generator was a god-sent as it kept the home fires burning. If I could fit a convection gas heater it would be magic but as it is I need power to run my heating system


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## John H (Nov 19, 2009)

Somebody has to say it: BAH HUMBUG!

But I don't feel able to fully qualify for the part because I have a television (and a satellite dish!) and have never shivered inside my van - although I am partial to the occasional paperback. Merry Christmas


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## shortcircuit (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks John, I was just having a bit fun.  Everybody is entitled to an opinion and life would be boring without that.

Up Yur Kilt and have a guid new year


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 19, 2009)

shortcircuit said:


> Thanks John, I was just having a bit fun.  Everybody is entitled to an opinion and life would be boring without that.
> 
> Up Yur Kilt and have a guid new year





 It is not obligatory to be nice to people who don't like gennies, espescially not John H.  

 Get a grip man, say it how it is!!


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## vwalan (Nov 20, 2009)

there is a problem withnewm,homes what happened to catylitic heaters on gas ,gas lights ,instantanious water heaters ,use only the pump . every thingas got hightec fan ovens .micro waves . i built mine so it was convenient and cheap with ability to be self sufficiant. most of the time. maybe i got it wrong.


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## John H (Nov 20, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> It is not obligatory to be nice to people who don't like gennies, espescially not John H.
> 
> Get a grip man, say it how it is!!



Just when I was beginning to like you!!!!!


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 20, 2009)

vwalan said:


> there is a problem withnewm,homes what happened to catylitic heaters on gas ,gas lights ,instantanious water heaters ,use only the pump . every thingas got hightec fan ovens .micro waves . i built mine so it was convenient and cheap with ability to be self sufficiant. most of the time. maybe i got it wrong.



Seems that way Alan, I get out of my wee dookit into the van for a wee bit of opulence.

 Now where did I leave my smoking jacket?


----------



## vwalan (Nov 20, 2009)

derek we arent playing good night


----------



## derekfaeberwick (Nov 20, 2009)

vwalan said:


> derek we arent playing good night



 It's morning here.


----------



## Deleted member 967 (Nov 20, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Because I am skint?
> 
> E Foy are stupid money and Gasparini I had never heard of.
> 
> I suspect they might be a wee bit dear as well, but if anyone has one that needs testing I'm your man!



Gaparini Self Energy EG-20 info at Conrad Anderson website Self Energy EG-20 12V Automatic Generator | Conrad Anderson UK

Best bit of kit I have had fitted.  If I want 240v I get it from a 1600w inverter.  This system ensures that my 2 x110ah + an 85ah leisure batteries are always topped up automatically.  If I run a heavy 240v load this unit cuts in to supply another 20A to my batteries and then cuts out when the batteries reach 14.5v.  It can also be used to recharge the vehicle battery if required.  Low LPG consumption.

I always check the noise level outside and have often spoken to people passing outside the van and asked them it it is disturbing them.  The common answer is "I didn't even realise you were running a generator".  I checked this at Peterborough Show, where you are packed together like sardines in a can, just after having it fitted.  It was noiser then than it is now, as it has run in.

I am about to have the remote oil filler kit fitted as it is a pain crawling under the van to put oil in it.  Joan does this job and gets oil all over her.  We have had it 2 years and needed to refill the oil tank twice.  It uses Synthetic two stroke oil.  We probably use this system more than most average users will.


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## biggirafe (Nov 20, 2009)

shortcircuit said:


> I no this is unfair but when I read all the anti generator brigade with their solar panel, gas fires, led lights, paper backs and no tele etc, I immediately think of Ebenezer Scrooge sitting there counting his pennies by candle light with his fingerless gloves on, balaclava and chittering with ice off his nose .
> 
> What is life about.  We have the technology to enjoy the outdoors and as I stated originally concerning  generators, its "just down to your responsible use."
> 
> I have had a couple of instances when I had electrical/battery problems and the generator was a god-sent as it kept the home fires burning. If I could fit a convection gas heater it would be magic but as it is I need power to run my heating system



This is a fun thread, certainlylearning a lot about different peoples aumptions and ways of camping.

I guess I am part of the anti geny brigade but I also have a satalite dish and plenty of high tech electrical equipment. I just accept when I go 'Wilding' that I might not be able to use it. If I want all the luxury of home when out I go to a campsite. It just seems odd to me that people want to go 'wilding' but they still want all the things that come with being on a mains supply.

I do accept that when people are out for extended periods or in extreme places its a must have, but come on guys we've all met people who are 20 miles from home for 2 nights who arrive and start the geny get the satalite up and fire up the microwave so they can have a prepackaged pizza whilst watching scum dancing. Each to there own but if they are inconsiderate to those of us who go out to escape the rat race then why don't we have the right to complain about it? If it was a noisy neighbour at home we have the right and the law is on our side....


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## derekfaeberwick (Nov 20, 2009)

John Thompson said:


> Gaparini Self Energy EG-20 info at Conrad Anderson website Self Energy EG-20 12V Automatic Generator | Conrad Anderson UK
> 
> Best bit of kit I have had fitted.  If I want 240v I get it from a 1600w inverter.  This system ensures that my 2 x110ah + an 85ah leisure batteries are always topped up automatically.  If I run a heavy 240v load this unit cuts in to supply another 20A to my batteries and then cuts out when the batteries reach 14.5v.  It can also be used to recharge the vehicle battery if required.  Low LPG consumption.
> 
> ...



  As I suspected,  £2,699.


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## John H (Nov 20, 2009)

At last I have the solution - only park next to rich people with silent generators!


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## maingate (Nov 20, 2009)

I have been trying to follow a few long threads on here this week and I may be getting confused.

OK then, this is what I have learned so far;

If you have a genny, it should be run off LPG (preferably Gaslow), it should be small enough to stand on a dinette table so the noise does not annoy anybody but should be far enough away from the toilet because of the risk of explosion.

I will get me coat.


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## fiftysomething (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm wondering whether I should apologise for starting what I thought would be an interesting topic but turned into quite a slanging match.  Think I'm probably off to buy a Honda (1Kw or 2Kw, depending on value and price I think) just for insurance purposes.  Will try to stay away from John H!!

I'm in awe of the confidence of you all seem to have in the 'wild' and would suggest that those that drive 20 miles down the road and then fire up their genny just don't have that confidence.

And I'm totally confused by which threads Maingate must have been reading this week - could you point me in the direction of the thread on the risk of explosion in the loo, please?

Oh, and please carry on with the discussion on generators - I've still got lots to learn !

Fiftysomething (and getting to know better!)


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## biggirafe (Nov 20, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> I'm wondering whether I should apologise for starting what I thought would be an interesting topic but turned into quite a slanging match.  Think I'm probably off to buy a Honda (1Kw or 2Kw, depending on value and price I think) just for insurance purposes.  Will try to stay away from John H!!
> 
> I'm in awe of the confidence of you all seem to have in the 'wild' and would suggest that those that drive 20 miles down the road and then fire up their genny just don't have that confidence.
> 
> ...



No appology required, the banter is good its not yet a slanging match. I think one thing that I have learned is that some people are very set in there ways about this topic. I certainly was not aware that you could get a 12v geny and I'm also interested in the Gepari discussed although the price is staggering.
I'm sure that everyone here who uses a geny does so responsibly and if they don't they should now be aware of how much they can upset those of us that choose not to use them. All I would say is before spending a great deal of money on purchasing a geny investigate whether you can achieve the result of staying out longer by other means, such as a second batttery, led lights etc. I was surprised how much difference these things made for me.

For me I have also learnt that some people do need a geny, if they are out the country in the wilds or full timing then its a saftey net that I would myself have. However like dog owners there are always a few who will give you a bad name.

Happy Wilding guys


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## vwalan (Nov 20, 2009)

i think you have to decide where or when you are going away .i leave tomorrow for 5mths spain portugal (not maroc this year).i will be avoiding campsites so will have no ehu. will be using solar and charging on the move. try to use as little 12volt or 240v as possible ,do use invertor to work household fridge. if necasary or due to break downs may use genny hopefully it will sit there un used. 
i cant ever understand the ones who go away every weekend and use a genny or need ehu all the time .even more glad they will not be parking by me . but as i travel with loonies with really load airhorns most get the hint after a while.ha ha.campfires and candles seem quite a nice thought at the moment.


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## ajs (Nov 20, 2009)

biggirafe said:


> For me I have also learnt that some people do need a geny,
> Happy Wilding guys


 

i'm staying at home ... unless i can plug in to overhead powere cables 

regards 
aj


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## biggirafe (Nov 20, 2009)

ajs said:


> i'm staying at home ... unless i can plug in to overhead powere cables
> 
> regards
> aj



Yes well you do seem to like to take the entire contents of PC World out with you and as we found out you have NO 12v supply that works 

I hear AC/DC have finished touring maybe they can lend you one of their small gennys with the extra power you have you will be able to tow it but it would restrict you to 60 mph which might be a problem


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## ajs (Nov 20, 2009)

biggirafe said:


> Yes well you do seem to like to take the entire contents of PC World out with you and as we found out you have NO 12v supply that works
> 
> I hear AC/DC have finished touring maybe they can lend you one of their small gennys with the extra power you have you will be able to tow it but it would restrict you to 60 mph which might be a problem


 
i friggin hate motorhome me...

regards


aj


.. but i hate puters even more..


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## coolasluck (Nov 20, 2009)

The way i look at it if you are full-timing then this is your way of life so you would want the full comforts that a bricks and mortar home has.I will not want inconveniance and stress when power has been lost.However we do understand that we will not be owning a washing machine anymore,so some things cant be helped,which brings me onto another point,has anyone tried those washing machine units,how good are they.

Aj you seem to have a limitless supply of smililies


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## ajs (Nov 20, 2009)

coolasluck said:


> has anyone tried those washing machine units,how good are they.


 

what's wrong with takin the one from home then...




coolasluck said:


> Aj you seem to have a limitless supply of smililies


 

i have a limitless supply of lots of things...

funny thing though... just how many peeps don't use smilies at all...
snow wonder they get misunderstood 

regards 
aj


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## guerdeval (Nov 20, 2009)

Yes I've tried one, they're surprisingly good, even the spin dryer works well but of course you need electricity and plumbing


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## John H (Nov 20, 2009)

guerdeval said:


> Yes I've tried one, they're surprisingly good, even the spin dryer works well but of course you need electricity and plumbing



Ah - but are they noisy?!


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## shortcircuit (Nov 20, 2009)

Stayed a couple of nights in an aires at Le Cretoy in France in October. Walked into town and quite a large MH parked in car park where it stayed all night.  Had the rear door wide open with a large garage type boot.  Full size washing machine and spin dryer with Honda generator going which all looked well organised.

Big difference from the washing board and mangle our conservationist would advocate.


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## biggirafe (Nov 20, 2009)

shortcircuit said:


> Stayed a couple of nights in an aires at Le Cretoy in France in October. Walked into town and quite a large MH parked in car park where it stayed all night.  Had the rear door wide open with a large garage type boot.  Full size washing machine and spin dryer with Honda generator going which all looked well organised.
> 
> Big difference from the washing board and mangle our conservationist would advocate.




I won't let me missus read this with 2 small children her dream is a washing machine when we are out.

The electric I can figure but given the amount of water needed to run a washing machine, even modern ones, they must need to refil after every wash


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## shortcircuit (Nov 20, 2009)

Where he had parked was at the side of the quay where he was able to get water from a standpipe.  I had exactly the same thoughts


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## vwalan (Nov 20, 2009)

my mate bought one of the blue twin tub types .its realy good we uesd it between 4 campers last winter for 3 mnths it took it all .it was powered by inverter from battery banks andworked really well even washed the bedding. well worth every penny .he paidfor it i hope we can use it this year.


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## BedfordMJ (Nov 20, 2009)

John Thompson said:


> Gaparini Self Energy EG-20 info at Conrad Anderson website Self Energy EG-20 12V Automatic Generator | Conrad Anderson UK
> 
> Best bit of kit I have had fitted.  If I want 240v I get it from a 1600w inverter.  This system ensures that my 2 x110ah + an 85ah leisure batteries are always topped up automatically.  If I run a heavy 240v load this unit cuts in to supply another 20A to my batteries and then cuts out when the batteries reach 14.5v.  It can also be used to recharge the vehicle battery if required.  Low LPG consumption.
> 
> ...



The noise of that is about the same as my Honda generator.


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## BedfordMJ (Nov 20, 2009)

In general with generators I find if someone complains you need to ask them to relax and listen to the beat of the engine. Large diesel engines are the best, get them to close their eyes and imagine each firing of each cylinder. They can be really relaxing once you get into it. Diesel fumes also have a lovely smell. Sometimes I run my generator just to listen to the engine I'm sure i've never offended anyone.


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## John H (Nov 20, 2009)

BedfordMJ said:


> In general with generators I find if someone complains you need to ask them to relax and listen to the beat of the engine. Large diesel engines are the best, get them to close their eyes and imagine each firing of each cylinder. They can be really relaxing once you get into it. Diesel fumes also have a lovely smell. Sometimes I run my generator just to listen to the engine I'm sure i've never offended anyone.



I knew there must be a positive side - the noise may be annoying but oh those lovely diesel fumes - just thinking about them makes me excited........


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## BedfordMJ (Nov 20, 2009)

John H said:


> I knew there must be a positive side - the noise may be annoying but oh those lovely diesel fumes - just thinking about them makes me excited........



People get so wound up over generators but then love to see steam engines, the internal combustion engine is just as much fun. In years to come there will be enthisiasts for 'old' generators.


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## John H (Nov 20, 2009)

BedfordMJ said:


> People get so wound up over generators but then love to see steam engines, the internal combustion engine is just as much fun. In years to come there will be enthisiasts for 'old' generators.



I think context is significant here - I love to watch Formula 1 but I wouldn't be happy if Jenson Button pulled up next to my van in a remote Spainish cove at 2 o'clock in the morning.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 21, 2009)

derekfaeberwick said:


> As I suspected,  £2,699.



For holiday/weekend use a Honda is fine.  I used to have one while I was doing that type of activity.  In fact I lived (in a caravan) with a diesel genny as my only source of power for eight years including the minus 20 winter of 1982.

We are gearing up to go Full time, The journey starts March 2010 and we will be on the road for as long as our health allows us. 365 days a year 24*7
so we have gone with options to make our motorhome "home" not just "home from home".  I find the expense of the Gasparini and gas tank justified for this end.  It means I do not then have to carry petrol as well as diesel and lpg.  We are also not cluttering up the storage with a smelly generator.

Just had 7 new tyres fitted yesterday, when the old girl had her MOT.

Next job a total bathroom refit at Hambiltons in February then we hit the road.


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## biggirafe (Nov 21, 2009)

John Thompson said:


> For holiday/weekend use a Honda is fine.  I used to have one while I was doing that type of activity.  In fact I lived (in a caravan) with a diesel genny as my only source of power for eight years including the minus 20 winter of 1982.
> 
> We are gearing up to go Full time, The journey starts March 2010 and we will be on the road for as long as our health allows us. 365 days a year 24*7
> so we have gone with options to make our motorhome "home" not just "home from home".  I find the expense of the Gasparini and gas tank justified for this end.  It means I do not then have to carry petrol as well as diesel and lpg.  We are also not cluttering up the storage with a smelly generator.
> ...



If your going full time then that sounds reasonabke and a lot less hastle than a portable genny you have to put away everytime you want to move


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## janeandbob (Nov 23, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.
> 
> Fiftysomething (and should know better!)



Hi, I have a generator for sale and sent you a PM. Bob.


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## jjwagon (Nov 24, 2009)

Are you selling everything Bob?

...never mind what make or size generator you get... just make sure it is good and LOUD...

JJ

Kipor's rule Ok?


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## jjwagon (Nov 24, 2009)

vwalan said:


> i think you have to decide where or when you are going away .i leave tomorrow for 5mths spain portugal (not maroc this year).i



I hope we bump into each other Alan... Happy travels...

JJ


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## vwalan (Nov 24, 2009)

hi jj. ferry cancelled, leave next sunday i hope. will be about sometime in winter. cheers alan


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## janeandbob (Nov 25, 2009)

jjwagon said:


> Are you selling everything Bob?
> 
> ...never mind what make or size generator you get... just make sure it is good and LOUD...
> 
> ...



Hi JJ, we now have a Honda 2000, so selling my Kipor 1000, I think its the same as yours if I remember right. tell me what you want to buy and I tell you If its for sale and how much. Still got the tractor mower for sale £350 if anyone wants one. Bob.


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## fiftysomething (Nov 25, 2009)

*Jane and Bob*

Hi,

Think I've just sent you a PM, but not 100% sure.  Perhaps you'd let me know!!

Thanks

Fiftysomething.


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## n8rbos (Nov 25, 2009)

vwalan said:


> i think you have to decide where or when you are going away .i leave tomorrow for 5mths spain portugal (not maroc this year).i will be avoiding campsites so will have no ehu. will be using solar and charging on the move. try to use as little 12volt or 240v as possible ,do use invertor to work household fridge. if necasary or due to break downs may use genny hopefully it will sit there un used.
> i cant ever understand the ones who go away every weekend and use a genny or need ehu all the time .even more glad they will not be parking by me . but as i travel with loonies with really load airhorns most get the hint after a while.ha ha.campfires and candles seem quite a nice thought at the moment.



av a gud un'


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## Firefox (Jan 11, 2010)

fiftysomething said:


> Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.
> 
> Fiftysomething (and should know better!)



I've got a fairly small one attached to the engine. It's driven by a belt and charges the leisure battery in about an hour or less when the vehicle is on the road.

That's the type I'd recommend


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 11, 2010)

Firefox said:


> I've got a fairly small one attached to the engine. It's driven by a belt and charges the leisure battery in about an hour or less when the vehicle is on the road.
> 
> That's the type I'd recommend



 If it's a standard alternator with split charge you're talking about then you must have a tiny leisure batteryfor it to require only an hour to charge up.


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## PaulC (Jan 11, 2010)

What sort of fuel consumption do you get running say 1000watt generator or another way of saying, is what power output do you get for a litre of fuel? It can be a consideration considering the cost of fuel is on the rise again!


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 11, 2010)

PaulC said:


> What sort of fuel consumption do you get running say 1000watt generator or another way of saying, is what power output do you get for a litre of fuel? It can be a consideration considering the cost of fuel is on the rise again!



 A full tank,2.6 litres, lasts me about 5 hours.  Yellow 1 kw Kipor.

http://www.kipor.com/prouducts_detail.asp?info_id=83


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## maingate (Jan 11, 2010)

I have an old Kawasaki 1 Kw generator that is not silenced.

Is there any way I can alter the exhaust (or similar) to yake the edge off the noise?

It also needs an air filter. It is a rectangular foam rubber type. Does anyone know where I can get a replacement. Not much info on the net.

Thanks.


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 11, 2010)

maingate said:


> I have an old Kawasaki 1 Kw generator that is not silenced.
> 
> Is there any way I can alter the exhaust (or similar) to yake the edge off the noise?
> 
> ...



  Could aquarium filter sponge treated with oil not be used? I think it's the same type of open cell sponge in both cases.

 As for the silencer, maybe a Webasto heater type silencer could be adapted.


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## PaulC (Jan 11, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> A full tank,2.6 litres, lasts me about 5 hours.  Yellow 1 kw Kipor.
> 
> PowerLand[



But what power are you getting out? I can see it's a 1Kw but I assume you are not drawing that all the time and my understanding is the higher your drain on the power output the harder the generator has to work! So the more fuel it must use, that's how I see it anyhow!


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 11, 2010)

PaulC said:


> But what power are you getting out? I can see it's a 1Kw but I assume you are not drawing that all the time and my understanding is the higher your drain on the power output the harder the generator has to work! So the more fuel it must use, that's how I see it anyhow!



 I don't know other than it's less than 1 kw.

 Kipor say 4 hours at full output,I get 5+ when watching telly charging batteries and laptops, that's all the info I can give you and really it's all that matters.


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## n8rbos (Jan 11, 2010)

b&q are doing performance power 850watt gennies bout £45 you can't go wrong. me i only use my battery for my tv/dvd player,lighting etc is all led with rechargeable batteries which i charge thru my 200watt inverter which has a built in 12v battery or when on move. this way i only use power for lighting where i want it and not all over the van when i flick a switch.i get @80-90hrs on a set of AAA's.htg is all gas


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## rommel (Jan 11, 2010)

*Kipor*

We have been using a 2kw Kipor last week wild camping in Chester, this was bought primarily to run the wifes hair dryer, dont be fooled by the 2Kw it will only run a 1600W hair dryer.Although we have a set of 140 amp hour batteries ,having the blown air  heating on night and day plus lights plus sat tv box (this is a real drain on the batteries) the batteries went below 12volt and we lost the sound on the TV, the genny soon reclified this but as I handnt put the mains adaptor for the sat and TV in when I packed the van we were running the genny just to charge the batteries, quite economic and quiet though.


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## PaulC (Jan 11, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> really it's all that matters.


yep, but I like to know the far end of a fart! As they say.


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## rickboy (Jan 11, 2010)

*Yake??*



maingate said:


> I have an old Kawasaki 1 Kw generator that is not silenced.
> 
> Is there any way I can alter the exhaust (or similar) to yake the edge off the noise?
> 
> ...



Are we onto "yakes" now???.     Don't see many  in Berkshire.


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 11, 2010)

Very difficult to calculate as the van's charger is 3 phase and also gives a float charge to the engine battery.


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## maingate (Jan 11, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Are we onto "yakes" now???.     Don't see many  in Berkshire.


No yakes in Berkshire now? You probably run them over in your big 4 x 4`s on your way to Fortnum and Masons.

There are still plenty of prats I hear.


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## dorset boy (Jan 11, 2010)

*genny*

Ive just bought a 60 quid special as a back up.
I am not to happy about putting it inside the new van - fuel + smell + no room, so I will strap it to the bike carrier....


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## ajs (Jan 11, 2010)

dorset boy said:


> Ive just bought a 60 quid special as a back up.
> I am not to happy about putting it inside the new van - fuel + smell + no room, so I will strap it to the bike carrier....


 
 it'll get nicked... specialy of you go up norrrfff  



 regards
aj


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## ajs (Jan 11, 2010)

maingate said:


> No yakes in Berkshire now? You probably run them over in your big 4 x 4`s on your way to Fortnum and Masons.
> 
> There are still plenty of prats I hear.


 
err yes.. it may be spelt like a berk ...
but actually dear chap it's pronounced _*bark*_shire as in woooff wooooff


_friggin knownowtnorverners.... tickasplanks_ 

regards
aj


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## maingate (Jan 11, 2010)

What would a Brummy know about Barkshire? 

Unless he had been in service down there.


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## jamiemumt (Jan 11, 2010)

*Advise*



fiftysomething said:


> Do any/many/most of you carry a generator? Any suggestions as to size or recommendations would be great.  Many thanks.
> 
> Fiftysomething (and should know better!)


I have a small generator, but its too noisy for camping. However - if you get a small "suitcase" generator, a Honda one is a good one to get.
Jim.


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## ajs (Jan 11, 2010)

maingate said:


> _*What would a Brummy know about Barkshire? *_


 

probably less than me 

eeegads
aj


_no geography teachers at your skool then_


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## rickboy (Jan 12, 2010)

maingate said:


> No yakes in Berkshire now? You probably run them over in your big 4 x 4`s on your way to Fortnum and Masons.
> 
> There are still plenty of prats I hear.





Being such  good customers of F&M (as well call them) we have a  daily delivery to the Royal Borough.Such lovely hampers don't you know.

An elocution lesson for you incase you are ever invited the "The Borough"

What do you breath? What grew from your head when much younger?
What do you call a lions home?  


Now put all the answers together.

Rick


----------



## maingate (Jan 12, 2010)

Got it! 

AIRCURLSSEMIDETACHED 

wotsitmean


----------



## ajs (Jan 12, 2010)

rickboy said:


> Being such  good customers of F&M (as well call them) we have a  daily delivery to the Royal Borough.Such lovely hampers don't you know.
> Rick



ohh...don't you just lurrve their royal jelly ... 
btw..we get our weekly supplies by mail order 

 regards
aj

 wild campers over xmas up carrog tried some F&M produce 
duck liver pate ... no complaints


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 12, 2010)

Fumesfluffmillwall, I suppose it does have a slight ring to it, as has the bell on Lance Armstrong's bike, not?


----------



## rickboy (Jan 12, 2010)

derekfaeberwick said:


> Fumesfluffmillwall, I suppose it does have a slight ring to it, as has the bell on Lance Armstrong's bike, not?





We breath air (lovely clean air fit for a queen)down south.

I thought it might be difficult trying to educate you guys.


----------



## ajs (Jan 12, 2010)

rickboy said:


> We breath air (lovely clean air fit for a queen)down south.
> 
> _* I thought it might be difficult trying to educate you guys.*_




 don't try... far tooooo hard...just humour them.... and take the pith 

 regards
aj


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## derekfaeberwick (Jan 13, 2010)

jamiemumt said:


> I have a small generator, but its too noisy for camping.





ajs said:


> probably less than me
> eeegads
> aj
> 
> ...


----------

