# All Electric camper



## Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

Has anyone ever explored the idea of an all electric camper?

What I mean by this is electric cooker, electric heating etc?


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## Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

BTW I mean using on board power. Inverter, solar panels, etc.


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## Biker Jeff (Nov 27, 2007)

I cant see that it would be popular, or even viable. Most people with vans are constantly thinking about conserving 12 volt power, or thinking about ways to give themselves more amp hr supply.
Imagine the amount of power that cooking food and heating the van would consume on 12 volt.
I think the only way it would be feasible, if you only camped on sites and had EHU.


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## Admin (Nov 27, 2007)

You can get large inverters quite cheaply now, a 5000w (10000w peak) can be purchased for about £250.00. I am going to buy a 3000w inverter charger which is £200.00 including delivery. The good thing about this one is that you connect it to the electric hookup and it recharges the batteries and switches the inverters sockets over to mains.

The next problem is batteries. You can get used UPS gel batteries from ebay for about £25.00 or £20.00 if you buy four or more. They range form 90 - 110ah, so £100 would but you about 500Ah. They have different dimensions to leisure batteries (51cm * 29.5cm * 11cm typically) and can be mounted in any direction. They are also sealed so can be mount internally without any venting.

The big cost is the solar panels, normally you will pay £3- £4 per watt for good quality panels. A 2m by 1m panel could deliver as much as 240watts.

You will also need a charge controller to handle the solar and split charging.

So what will 3000 watts with 500 Ah give you?

Theoretically 3000 watts  / 12 volt = 250 amps

So if you ran the inverter at full power the best you could hope for is 2 hours!

But you have to remember that inverter is 85% efficient so it is actually closer to 287.5 amps. Then the batteries will not give their full rated capacity so we are probably looking at around 90 minutes at full load.

90 minutes??? not much good for a weekend away is it....... but.....

Think how long it takes to boil a kettle? 5 minutes at 2000 watts?
 27 times from one charge.


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## Deleted member 2636 (Nov 27, 2007)

May I suggest that you have a look at www.sbmcc.co.uk because they have had a lot of correspondence about UPS batteries. The reason that they are being sold is because they have reached the end of their life.
 I wouldn't rely on an inverter being particularly efficient either. The big ones eat power like there is no tomorrow


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## Geoff.W (Nov 28, 2007)

Admin said:


> Has anyone ever explored the idea of an all electric camper?
> 
> What I mean by this is electric cooker, electric heating etc?



 Hi Admin. My initial reaction to this is why should anyone want to, but then this lead my thinking to this recent "popular" idea of gas less motorhomes, I realy can't understand what the advantage is. LPG has been used very successfully on lesure vehicles for many years, quite honestly nothing else can get close to it in terms of cleaness,reliability and cost effectiveness. Dispite all the scare mongery caused by some of the regulations, gas equipment is incredably simple hence it's reliability and probably safer to use than liquid fueled equipment. It also appears that problems with exchanging gas bottles, particularly abroad, concerns people, can anyone please explain to me why they are prepared to spend 40k+ on a motorhome that has not got a fixed LPG tank, my 30yr old Yank had one fitted. Why don't more manufacturers fit them, I don't believe cost can be used as an excuse because if fitted from new the cost of fitting a locker as well as the hire charge of the bottles can be ofset against it. Shall we start a campain. (Time to get off soapbox). Sorry to hijack your electric's thread but I do feel it's a valid point in the discusion.

Regards Geoff.​


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## ian81 (Nov 28, 2007)

If one looks at this from the energy requirement level we need to have the following power (my suggestions):

Fridge           100w for 12 hr =1200 Whr (more in summer less in winter)
Heating        1000w for 3hr   =3000 Whr  (less in summer)
Hot Water     1000w for 1/2hr =500 Whr
Cooking         1000w for 1/2hr =500 Whr
Lights / pump  100w for 1hr =100Whr

So a total daily requirement of around 5000Whrs. 

If solar panels were used for 10 hours /day they would need to generate 500W per hour.
Batteries to store that amount over 400 ah

All the above assumes 100% efficiency in any conversion (inverter) and also with the batteries!!

So I would guess the only way forward might be a roof full of solar panels, a wind turbine feeding 4 110ah batteries, augmented by a 1KVa generator to charge the batteries and run some of the load.


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## Admin (Nov 28, 2007)

ian81 said:


> If one looks at this from the energy requirement level we need to have the following power (my suggestions):
> 
> Fridge           100w for 12 hr =1200 Whr (more in summer less in winter)
> Heating        1000w for 3hr   =3000 Whr  (less in summer)
> ...



Makes a gas bottle sound a lot easier doesnt it?


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## Yogihughes (Nov 28, 2007)

Probably cheaper tae buy a hoose!!!


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## lenny (Nov 28, 2007)

*Electric cycle*

I,m no electrical engineer but I have an idea to maintain constant electricity.
This is it....12v battery to inverter....inverter to 240v battery charger....
battery charger to 12v battery, This completes the cycle.
What do you think?


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## sundown (Nov 28, 2007)

lenny said:


> I,m no electrical engineer but I have an idea to maintain constant electricity.
> This is it....12v battery to inverter....inverter to 240v battery charger....
> battery charger to 12v battery, This completes the cycle.
> What do you think?



   this sounds senseable and simple, but I suspect its like perpetual motion
for some reason dosen't work, I donno!
   sundown


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## lenny (Nov 28, 2007)

how about a hamster wheel connected to a dynamo and feed the hamster on steroids and......maybe not.  

Back to the drawing board


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2007)

lenny said:


> I,m no electrical engineer but I have an idea to maintain constant electricity.
> This is it....12v battery to inverter....inverter to 240v battery charger....
> battery charger to 12v battery, This completes the cycle.
> What do you think?


   intresting


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## walkers (Nov 28, 2007)

lenny said:


> I,m no electrical engineer but I have an idea to maintain constant electricity.
> This is it....12v battery to inverter....inverter to 240v battery charger....
> battery charger to 12v battery, This completes the cycle.
> What do you think?


interesting idea but am sure if it worked and had power to spare to use on appliances the government would be sure to ban it or tax it


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## Admin (Nov 29, 2007)

Well you could always run your generator on water then the energy would be free. And just incase you are wondering, you can run an engine on water if you crack it first into hydrogen and oxygen. The best thing is; no carbon, so no carbon dioxide or monoxide. However the method is patented by one of the large fuel companies and I think the gov would find it hard to tax water!


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## sundown (Nov 29, 2007)

Admin said:


> Well you could always run your generator on water then the energy would be free. And just incase you are wondering, you can run an engine on water if you crack it first into hydrogen and oxygen. The best thing is; no carbon, so no carbon dioxide or monoxide. However the method is patented by one of the large fuel companies and I think the gov would find it hard to tax water!



*oh! no they wouldn't!​*:   sundown​


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## Geoff.W (Nov 29, 2007)

However the method is patented by one of the large fuel companies 

Sorry Admin urban myth. Common misconception is that holding a patent keeps an idea secret, it does just the opposite. All patents can I believe viewed at the patents office. Holding a patent prevents anyone else from making commercial gain from your ideas, i don't think even making use of them for further experimentation or demonstration for educational use is prevented.
 By the way cracking water is not that difficult, pass an electric current through acidic water the electrodes will gas oxygen on one and hydrogen on the other. I think that is how it's done but it is 35yrs since I did it in 3rd form chemistry. Problem is it takes much more power to "crack" it than you can get from it. 

Regards Geoff.​


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## snowgoose (Nov 29, 2007)

*Hydrogen cars*

Sorry gang your all to late there is allready a car up & running in UNST in the Shetlands,sorry to rain on your parade.
snowgoose.


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## sundown (Nov 29, 2007)

I agree with you geoff, 
but dont you think that some-one, some-where, is managing to hold back technological advancements, which would benifit the general public?, unless they are making money out of it
It takes a large war to bring out these advancements,as proved in
pinamundie, blechlie park, nevada desert, etc., etc.,
the german enigma code was 100 years ahead of its time 
yet they cracked it 60 odd years ago 
dont tell me they cant crack something as easy as cracking water
I think that we'd all be surprised if we discovered what they could use for a "new" power source


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## Deleted member 2636 (Nov 29, 2007)

snowgoose said:


> Sorry gang your all to late there is allready a car up & running in UNST in the Shetlands,sorry to rain on your parade.
> snowgoose.




Interesting. How are they refueling, any idea? 
I have seen the Merc being refueled and it is a scary operation. It is all done remotely. You don't get out and handle anything at all: Something to do with the boiling point at -252.87 º C 
I think that there is still a YouTube video somewhere.


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## Admin (Nov 29, 2007)

Geoff.W said:


> However the method is patented by one of the large fuel companies
> 
> Sorry Admin urban myth. Common misconception is that holding a patent keeps an idea secret, it does just the opposite. All patents can I believe viewed at the patents office. Holding a patent prevents anyone else from making commercial gain from your ideas, i don't think even making use of them for further experimentation or demonstration for educational use is prevented.
> By the way cracking water is not that difficult, pass an electric current through acidic water the electrodes will gas oxygen on one and hydrogen on the other. I think that is how it's done but it is 35yrs since I did it in 3rd form chemistry. Problem is it takes much more power to "crack" it than you can get from it.
> Regards Geoff.​



Your right, however it does prevent car companies from being able to commerically use the technology.

There are lots of ways of cracking water; search for "water engine patent" in google if you are interested.


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## tresrikay (Nov 29, 2007)

I too can't understand this constant need for electric (230) type. Apart from kettles, toasters, I came to motorhoming from narrow boating which i did for 14 years, living full time on one for 10 of those and the stuff people were putting on them in the end was frightening. Washing machines, Dryers,Dishwashers etc,etc,and consequently were having to install such an amazing aray of equipment to generate the power, that on one boat i saw built, it had two engines one to push it through the water and another to generate the power plus extra alternators, smoothers, rectifiers, management systems, battery banks. The size of the room to keep all this in was about the size of the bedroom on my van. The poor chap spent more time laid up with problems with the system than he did sailing it. No keep the lot. Most entertainment stuff is available in 12v, everything else can be done by gas, so get some gaslow bottles (gas less than 1/2 calor price) a decent solar panel decent batteries and leave 230 at home with all the rest of the crap we are escaping from......... SOD IT, forgot about her hair dryer,oh well, anybody got any ideas about an all electric motorhome................!!!


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## cipro (Nov 29, 2007)

ian81 said:


> If one looks at this from the energy requirement level we need to have the following power (my suggestions):
> 
> Fridge           100w for 12 hr =1200 Whr (more in summer less in winter)
> Heating        1000w for 3hr   =3000 Whr  (less in summer)
> ...




Fair play to the above but the times crosswork seems easier to understand lol

All I tend to do is add up the power of my appliences so that i dont trip the TRIP when hooked up if you now what i mean.


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## Admin (Nov 29, 2007)

I am glad we have explored this idea, what next ???


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## walkers (Nov 30, 2007)

cipro said:


> Fair play to the above but the times crosswork seems easier to understand lol
> 
> All I tend to do is add up the power of my appliences so that i dont trip the TRIP when hooked up if you now what i mean.


you hooking up to lamposts?   what about when you are wilding? 
seems as if it would be difficult without gas but think of the benefits no co2, less fire risk.

We would all like to think the insurance companies would bring premiums down with no gas equipment on board, or would that be going too far


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## Deleted member 2636 (Nov 30, 2007)

walkers said:


> you hooking up to lamposts?   what about when you are wilding?
> :



I wondered when some one would mention that; unless you have a very big Generator it would be a bit tricky for a Wild Camper I would have thought.


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## Geoff.W (Nov 30, 2007)

walkers said:


> seems as if it would be difficult without gas but think of the benefits no co2, less fire risk.



I don't agree, the CO2 produced in charging the batteries would be much greater than that produced by the gas equipment. It would be difficult to prove either way but the fire risk from the high voltage electrical instalation would probably be greater than the risk from gas, just look at the number of house fires put down to electrical faults.

Another fact no one has used in thier calculations is that even good batteries are only about 75% efficient i.e. you need to put 4KWH in to get 3KWH out.

Regards Geoff.​


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## Geoff.W (Nov 30, 2007)

Further to my previous post one or two may find this interesting

http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm

Battery Efficiency
Energy efficiency is calculated on the amount of power used from the battery while discharging divided by the amount of power delivered to the batter while charging, multiplied by 100 to yield percent.  Pout x 100 /Pin  . A lead-acid battery has an efficiency of only 75-85%. The energy lost appears as heat and warms the battery. Keeping the charge and discharge rate of a battery low, helps keep a battery cool and improves the battery life. 

The above losses don't include losses in the charging circuit which may have an efficiency of  anywhere from 60% to 80%  - thus the overall- total efficiency is the product of these efficiencies and ends up being 45 to 68%. (To further this example and to show why physics and not some corporate conspiracy is the reason we don't have electric cars - suppose the controls and motors on a car were 85% - the over all efficiency is now only 38 - 58%. You can see that an electric car would use about twice the energy than a conventional car - not to mention the great cost of the regular replacement of batteries. This is why batteries are best used where only intermittent, or very low power use is required.)  

To further explain - If the electricity is generated from a gasoline engine - and that energy is converted to electricity, and then sent through power line transformers and power lines, and then converted to DC, and then converted to chemical energy, and then converted back to electrical energy, and then converted to rotary mechanical energy - it is clear that many losses have occurred. If the same gasoline motor was providing the rotary energy directly to the drive train it is much more efficient

Does highlight some of the difficulties particularly for wild camping.

Regards Geoff.​


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## David & Ann (Nov 30, 2007)

Geoff.W said:


> Further to my previous post one or two may find this interesting
> 
> http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm
> 
> ...



Geoff, explain that again in layman's english


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## andy&bea (Nov 30, 2007)

*elecrtic cycle*

Your right Lenny, you are not an electrical engineer, be great if it did work your way though. regards  Andy&bea


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## Geoff.W (Nov 30, 2007)

David & Ann said:


> Geoff, explain that again in layman's english



Eer! yes I take your point, sorry, Is a bit techy (tecky?). Basicly the point it makes is that, in the terms of this thread, it would take 2 - 21/2 times more power (when measured at input point) to boil an egg using battery power than using gas.


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## David & Ann (Nov 30, 2007)

Geoff.W said:


> Eer! yes I take your point, sorry, Is a bit techy (tecky?). Basicly the point it makes is that, in the terms of this thread, it would take 2 - 21/2 times more power (when measured at input point) to boil an egg using battery power than using gas.



Got it Buddy


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## walkers (Dec 2, 2007)

Geoff.W said:


> I don't agree, the CO2 produced in charging the batteries would be much greater than that produced by the gas equipment.



inside the vehicle?


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## artc (Dec 9, 2007)

*All electric, mine is*

I have an all Electric van, it's a Toyota Hiace 4WD(fulltime)LWB, Auto 3.4 2002 with overdrive. Everything is electric, fridge, microwave, interior lights,electric bed,, I also have a generator. It drives like a dream, came in from Japan, a really smart looking van ( we do carry a 2 burner picnic in a case) which wev'e used about twice.


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