# Scarborough traders complain



## Piglets Pilot

Despairing traders demand action over night-time camper van parking
Published on Friday 24 June 2011 09:18

SCARBOROUGH traders are being driven to despair by rogue camper van drivers abusing parking spaces to stay free of charge in the seaside town overnight.

At a recent meeting of the Scarborough Chamber of Trade and Commerce, members complained of dozens of camper vans using parking spaces overlooking the sea as an overnight sleeping spot, with one witness reporting as many as 50 parked on one street alone one evening.

The problem is most serious around Marine Drive to the north of the skateboard park and the West Pier car park, with camper vans regularly being spotted searching for spaces for the night.

Despite warnings that overnight parking of camper vans is not allowed, people are sleeping in their vehicles to avoid paying for hotels or using caravan parks.

Now traders are calling for more to be done to stop owners abusing the system and draining vital income from the seaside town’s tourist economy in the summer months.


http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...king_1_3513351


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## iwm

Try this link

Despairing traders demand action over night-time camper van parking - Local stories - Yorkshire Post

IanM


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## kimbowbill

the debate continues then, will be interesing to see what happens, especially when one of the councillors owns a caravan site :rolleyes2:


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## sagart

Not sure if this is stated as a fact or speculation...but this was a problem for years in Torquay where the power of the hotel industry in guiding council policy was immense


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## Luckheart

Lets go and stay in a hotel, where am I going to park my van whist I'm there


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## Bigpeetee

What's the difference between free facilities at night or during the day??

Most coastal town have a plethora of eating venues, from burger bars to top of the range restaurants.

However the council provide services ie picnic benches for those who choose not to use commercial operations and do their own thing. Do the owners of the cafes etc complain.

You can go on; the council provide play equipment for free, but you can go to a play venue and pay for it.

The list goes on, so why when it comes to stopping overnight do people all of a sudden change their approach?

I appreciate that some people do park inconsiderately and that might p*ss the owner off.  But if we had Aires..........................


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## iwm

Luckheart said:


> Lets go and stay in a hotel, where am I going to park my van whist I'm there



You park right outside the hotel or in their car park don't you?.

We do that from time to time for a bit of luxury and no hotel has ever said
" Go away - you can't use this hotel because you have a motorhome"

What would happen if you were to stay at a Scarborough B&B. Would they try and move the motorhome on even if you were not sleeping in it? If your van is road legal I don't see how they can.

I can see both sides of the Scarborough traders complaint. They and the council have invested in improving facilities in Scarborough. I think that parking in Scarborough streets is hardly ' wild camping' (unless the visitors and locals go wild after a few beers) and maybe it is more like 'freeloading'. If you bring your provisions with you into a town you are hardly helping their local economy. If you do true 'wild camping' then there is probably not much local economy to support. If there is, I for one, always try to support.

Others on this website might well disagree.

IanM


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## kenjones

When this topic was discussed here a couple of years ago it was suggested that the owner of a caravan site in Burniston, a couple of miles north of Scarborough, was related to a councillor (Backhouse i think) and that family interest may play a part in the decision making. 
 I wonder if the council have considered that making vans unwelcome will not fill the campsites but only rob local traders of income by persuading visitors to use other resorts.


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## al n sal

we've always made a point of spending money in the local small community, not major chains, etc,

if they make moves to make it more difficult for us, then I'm more than happy to move my camping in-land definitely away from Scarborough.

then they won't get any of my hard earned money.

plenty of nice places to visit, that want my cash:mad1:,


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## kimbowbill

kenjones said:


> When this topic was discussed here a couple of years ago it was suggested that the owner of a caravan site in Burniston, a couple of miles north of Scarborough, was related to a councillor (Backhouse i think) and that family interest may play a part in the decision making.
> I wonder if the council have considered that making vans unwelcome will not fill the campsites but only rob local traders of income by persuading visitors to use other resorts.


 
here here, well said. i cant remember the name of the councillor but i emailed stating this was a conflict of interest and he should not be entitled to have a say, it would be interesting to see, if they did ban MH's how much trade would be lost, i think the traders have tunnel vision and think we dont spend for some reason, i never take my own provisions, i always shop when visiting anywhere, maybe us MH's should have our own currency to proove we spend money :banana:


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## kenjones

kimbowbill said:


> here here, well said. i cant remember the name of the councillor but i emailed stating this was a conflict of interest and he should not be entitled to have a say, it would be interesting to see, if they did ban MH's how much trade would be lost, i think the traders have tunnel vision and think we dont spend for some reason, i never take my own provisions, i always shop when visiting anywhere, maybe us MH's should have our own currency to proove we spend money :banana:



I have no interest in overnighting among the traffic on Marine Drive.
I do however make frequent day trips to Scarborough when, like you, I always use local shops and cafe's etc. 
The attitude of the council is offensive and not at all visitor friendly. Many other resorts look more welcoming.
Time for a change?


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## kimbowbill

kenjones said:


> I have no interest in overnighting among the traffic on Marine Drive.
> I do however make frequent day trips to Scarborough when, like you, I always use local shops and cafe's etc.
> The attitude of the council is offensive and not at all visitor friendly. Many other resorts look more welcoming.
> Time for a change?


 
yes ken, i agree, i dont use marine drive either, its far too noisey for me but if the council and traders are going to treat me/us like lepars then my money spends anywhere and i will take my business elsewhere,

Jen


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## Beemer

But when people abuse our parking facilities they are in effect taking away income from *local caravan parks which are set up specifically to cater for camper van visitors.*”

But they are *not* are they? .... where are the 'Aire' type pitches then?


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## Dezi

Hi, As always there are two sides to the argument. In Bournemouth the situation is the same & for the same reason.
Very few have any complaints about a bit of discreet parking, but & it’s a BIG but some people take advantage. I live close to the beach in the Bournemouth area & in the summer we often find a motorhome / caravan/ van parked in the road or actually on the grass overlooking the sea. 
Not satisfied with that they often stay for several days, curtains drawn until midday. 
The biggest complainers – folk on holiday with small children who have no wish to walk past parked up vans, overflowing litter bins & in some instances worse.

Part of the ethos of this site is to help people enjoy motorhoming without spending a fortune,& all the more experienced members say the same thing “if wild camping be discreet, leave no litter,& if possible do it where you are not in full view of the public”
Unfortunatly the sefish minority continue to try & ruin things for the rest us.

Dezi


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## Pollik

With few exceptions, I have no wish to go anywhere that neither I not my money is welcome.  

I would suggest to the local authorities to look at the French model for accomodating motorhomes outside formal campsites, which many of us don't want.  I can't be doing with the waiting around to book in, the booking in itself, showing a passport.  The aire system and wilding suites me very well.  If there is a problem with numbers, then one solution is to provide cheap, no frills services for MHs and generate some money from it.  Pushing tourists away, when you are a tourist town, is simply moronic.

I want to give my money to local business (not to the council), but I am not going to bled dry by overpriced camping sites where I am paying for services I don't need or want.

Bournemouth - 50 MHs?  What a great business opportunity!!  Where are the entrepreneurs?


Polly


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## Dezi

Pollik said:


> With few exceptions, I have no wish to go anywhere that neither I not my money is welcome.
> 
> I would suggest to the local authorities to look at the French model for accomodating motorhomes outside formal campsites, which many of us don't want.  I can't be doing with the waiting around to book in, the booking in itself, showing a passport.  The aire system and wilding suites me very well.  If there is a problem with numbers, then one solution is to provide cheap, no frills services for MHs and generate some money from it.  Pushing tourists away, when you are a tourist town, is simply moronic.
> 
> I want to give my money to local business (not to the council), but I am not going to bled dry by overpriced camping sites where I am paying for services I don't need or want.
> 
> Bournemouth - 50 MHs?  What a great business opportunity!!  Where are the entrepreneurs?
> 
> 
> Polly


 
There are plenty of entrepreneurs in the Bournemouth area running motorhome  sites,but I understood we were talking about people who do not use them.  

Dezi


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## Deleted member 3802

we go to the coast line very little durein the holiday season but when we have been this year we are noticing far more vans parked up than ever before and in places that are sure to upset the locals causing them to involve the council
Scarborough like most other coastal resorts no longer rely on tourism for their income they rely on benefits they get them all year round go into any town centre and it looks like jeremy kyles waiting room


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## jezport

We have spent a couple of nights on Marine Drive. It has 1000s of spaces that are not used at night. There were about 6 vans over night, I cant see the problem. We spent money on Fish and chips and gifts etc.


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## Pollik

Dezi said:


> There are plenty of entrepreneurs in the Bournemouth area running motorhome  sites,but I understood we were talking about people who do not use them.
> 
> Dezi



...because the sites aren't selling what the MHers want?



Polly


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## Tbear

Who are these faceless, nameless traders that are in despair?

Is it the man I buy newspaper from?
Is it the café I get my Coffee and Bacon Sandwich from?
Is it the garage I get a tank of petrol from?
Is it the shop I buy provisions from?
Is it the girl I buy an Ice cream from?
Is it the Chippie I get my supper from?
Perhaps it,s the pub that I have the odd pint in.

Or is it some money grabber who wants me to spend £30.00 to park on soft grass and maybe I will get a few gallons of water and empty my tanks which I can do for free elsewhere.

If a hundred motorhomes (not the dozen or so I have seen) parked along Marine drive at night, you could still do it without blocking anyones view and there will still be masses of space for other people to park at night.

I admit that I am not putting money directly in the hotel owners pockets but after a great weekend in Scarborough, I go back to work and tell friends and colleagues what a wonderful time I had in Scarborough. Not going to do them any harm is it?

Richard


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## Dezi

Pollik said:


> ...because the sites aren't selling what the MHers want?
> 
> 
> 
> Polly


 
Surely the only thing they need to sell is space !

Dezi


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## kimbowbill

Tbear said:


> Who are these faceless, nameless traders that are in despair?
> 
> Is it the man I buy newspaper from?
> Is it the café I get my Coffee and Bacon Sandwich from?
> Is it the garage I get a tank of petrol from?
> Is it the shop I buy provisions from?
> Is it the girl I buy an Ice cream from?
> Is it the Chippie I get my supper from?
> Perhaps it,s the pub that I have the odd pint in.
> 
> Or is it some money grabber who wants me to spend £30.00 to park on soft grass and maybe I will get a few gallons of water and empty my tanks which I can do for free elsewhere.
> 
> If a hundred motorhomes (not the dozen or so I have seen) parked along Marine drive at night, you could still do it without blocking anyones view and there will still be masses of space for other people to park at night.
> 
> I admit that I am not putting money directly in the hotel owners pockets but after a great weekend in Scarborough, I go back to work and tell friends and colleagues what a wonderful time I had in Scarborough. Not going to do them any harm is it?
> 
> Richard


 
Cayton bay caravan park, £38 per night peak, ****, and they wonder why no one wants to use them, 

your spot on Tbear, i do same, come home and tell everyone how lovely it is,  its the locals that do all the complaining, i was talking to a chap at scalby and he said it was the locals in general that hated MH, he was a local himself and was wanting a MH but darent buy one for fear of upsetting the neighbours,:mad1: i asked him what their problem was, he said its because we are all freeloaders, dont spend any money, enjoy THEIR facilites and put nothing back in the pot, its a bloody joke,


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## Dezi

Old_Arthur said:


> we go to the coast line very little durein the holiday season but when we have been this year we are noticing far more vans parked up than ever before and in places that are sure to upset the locals causing them to involve the council
> Scarborough like most other coastal resorts no longer rely on tourism for their income they rely on benefits they get them all year round go into any town centre and it looks like jeremy kyles waiting room


 

Very true old UN, Unfortunately when we get a serious topic, such as this, & contributors start using hyperbole such as – ripped off/bled dry/ money grabbers etc  then you realise that a rational conversation is unlikely to follow. 

I have been wilding for well over 20 years, but take a very pragmatic approach. If I can discreetly arrive late somewhere & spend the night, leave no sign of my visit, then fine. However if I cannot find anywhere & I need to pay, then equally fine. Personally I am looking to relax & enjoy myself; I am not looking for charity. 

Dezi


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## Pollik

Dezi said:


> Surely the only thing they need to sell is space !
> 
> Dezi



If only they realised that.  I wouldn't pay £25 to park my car overnight (or anywhere, come to that).

This is the thing...if parking (and water and waste) were provided at sensible prices, MHers would use them.  Most don't mind paying a sensible amount, but get a little upset at being ripped off.  And if those spaces (and services) were provided, most MHers would stop parking in inconsiderate places.  In France, perhaps 25% of aires are free, so providers need to be sensible about pricing and costs.  The win/win/win is that MHers have somewhere tailored to their needs, business get tourist business and residences are save from the eyesores.


Polly


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## al n sal

what could we do to stop us being banned, segregated and dare I say victimized..for owning a campervan/motorhome. 

talking about who has moaned lately only highlights the problem, we need to come up with a solution or solutions to this.

the obvious is for everyone to follow a set code, like a the guide, but how do we get everyone to follow it.....:hammer:

what do you think?

I'll get my coat now:danger:


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## Tbear

Dezi said:


> Very true old UN, Unfortunately when we get a serious topic, such as this, & contributors start using hyperbole such as – ripped off/bled dry/ money grabbers etc  then you realise that a rational conversation is unlikely to follow.
> 
> I have been wilding for well over 20 years, but take a very pragmatic approach. If I can discreetly arrive late somewhere & spend the night, leave no sign of my visit, then fine. However if I cannot find anywhere & I need to pay, then equally fine. Personally I am looking to relax & enjoy myself; I am not looking for charity.
> 
> Dezi




Dezi

Just because one person exaggerates something does not mean that the rest of our brains turn to mush. May I suggest you look up pompous in the same dictionary you found hyperbole.

Richard


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## Tbear

al n sal said:


> what could we do to stop us being banned, segregated and dare I say victimized..for owning a campervan/motorhome.
> 
> talking about who has moaned lately only highlights the problem, we need to come up with a solution or solutions to this.
> 
> the obvious is for everyone to follow a set code, like a the guide, but how do we get everyone to follow it.....:hammer:
> 
> what do you think?
> 
> I'll get my coat now:danger:



Hi Al n Sal,

I agree totally but what to do short of having a profesional register, where members are struck off if they deviate from the code. Even then how would you identify registered members. All we can do is try to set a good example and show our displeasure to people like the chap that just dumped his waste tank on the beach at Huttoft. He would not even have bothered to try to cover it over had he not seen my wife watching him. There was a public loo 200 meters away.

Richard


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## Dezi

Tbear said:


> Dezi
> 
> Just because one person exaggerates something does not mean that the rest of our brains turn to mush. May I suggest you look up pompous in the same dictionary you found hyperbole.
> 
> Richard


 
There is no need to become offensive simply because you are inarticulate.

Dezi


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## Tbear

Dezi,

May I ask in which way I failed to express myself and as far as being offencive I was not the one saying, "then you realise that a rational conversation is unlikely to follow". Thus implying the rest of us are incapable of rational. Unlike in your opinion, your pragmatic self

Richard


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## anfi1

I live in Scarborough and believe me if the local traders and public have only this to moan about then i must be really missing something!We have many issues in the town at the moment so just carry on enjoying the parking on Marine Drive and if you get a little of something for nothing then good on you!:lol-053:


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## kimbowbill

anfi1 said:


> I live in Scarborough and believe me if the local traders and public have only this to moan about then i must be really missing something!We have many issues in the town at the moment so just carry on enjoying the parking on Marine Drive and if you get a little of something for nothing then good on you!:lol-053:


 
thank you, but..... it isn't really for nothing, i think most MH's put £5 in the machine, i know i do even after 6, i feel this way i am making a contribution, i also spend loads at the shops, more than i do at home, if they continue to moan peeps will jsut stop going and it will end up like mablethorpe, 

Jen


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## jezport

Why dont we arrange a large meet on North Marine Drive. Then invite the press to join us as we go for fish and chips etc. Would the chip shops and gift shops turn us away?
I doubt it.


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## kimbowbill

jezport said:


> Why dont we arrange a large meet on North Marine Drive. Then invite the press to join us as we go for fish and chips etc. Would the chip shops and gift shops turn us away?
> I doubt it.


 
Think thats a fantastic idea, they would complain that we'd cleared them out of f&c, :dance:


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## Higgy

Once you have got your £5 ticket from the machine does this entitle you
to park up for the night ?

I have not visited for years.

For 7 euro you can park up in the Aire in the centre of Fort
Mahon Plage in France, stroll down for a beer and a meal and when caught short
in the night nip over to the toilets.

Don't go over around 0730 cus the cleaner is in doing a grand job.

I think the UK towns, resorts etc are missing out on our cash, not in
Car Parks though as we cannot get under the Height Barriers. pmsl


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## John H

al n sal said:


> what could we do to stop us being banned, segregated and dare I say victimized..for owning a campervan/motorhome.
> 
> talking about who has moaned lately only highlights the problem, we need to come up with a solution or solutions to this.
> 
> the obvious is for everyone to follow a set code, like a the guide, but how do we get everyone to follow it.....:hammer:
> 
> what do you think?
> 
> I'll get my coat now:danger:


 
The short answer is that, unfortunately, you will never persuade everybody to follow it; there will always be the inconsiderate minority who spoil it for the rest of us. My approach is to avoid the trouble by not parking  up in popular spots in high season and where there are lots of other motorhomes. For example, I love touring around Spain and Portugal, using official aires and out-of-the-way wilding spots; but I have visited the Algarve and Costa Del Sol once each and would never go back. It is in those overcrowded areas that the problems tend to arise. In all my years of wilding I have only been asked to move on twice (and very apologetically!).

Having said that, it is a source of constant amazement to me that English towns do not know what towns in other countries have known for years - that we are a boost to not a drain on the local economy. It is Scarborough that will lose out if they follow through on this. There's nowt so queer as folk!


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## diggdeep

*scarborough*

yes i am with them as we  had a day over thar one park up orning out tabel chares on other parking bays can they not use  just use one bay not tack so meaney up diggdeep north yorks  motorhome her


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## Deleted member 3802

this weekend on marine drive 2 new vans were parked up with a space between them and an awning out complete with bistro set up :scared: the hottest busiest day of the year so far, these guys weren't site dodgers who had been there all night they had come into town from their site for the day:drive: but we are all classed the same motorhomers when people start to complain:mad2:
p.s. these guys are more than likely on the forums for the righteous this morning calling us in the vans still parked up for the night when they left to go back on to their pitches:lol-061:


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## Dezi

Tbear said:


> Dezi,
> 
> May I ask in which way I failed to express myself and as far as being offencive I was not the one saying, "then you realise that a rational conversation is unlikely to follow". Thus implying the rest of us are incapable of rational. Unlike in your opinion, your pragmatic self
> 
> Richard


 
By misquoting my comments [ More than 1 person used hyperbole ]  & associating me with implications that I did not make.[ I did not remotely imply the rest of this community brains had turned to mush]

I suggest we leave it at that.

Dezi


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## Bigpeetee

Doesn't "Wild Camping" mean staying out in more "Wild" places not seaside towns along the prom.

Probably because I live by them, I want to avoid them like the plague.

But there are always some undesirable people who come to them, The Towyn area of North Wales has the dubious acclaim of having the greatest concentration of static caravans in Europe. Why anyone wants to park there beats me, but each to their own.

If you have a motor home I thought the idea was that you arrived, stayed the night then moved on, not stay in one spot for up to two weeks.


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## Dezi

al n sal said:


> what could we do to stop us being banned, segregated and dare I say victimized..for owning a campervan/motorhome.
> 
> talking about who has moaned lately only highlights the problem, we need to come up with a solution or solutions to this.
> 
> the obvious is for everyone to follow a set code, like a the guide, but how do we get everyone to follow it.....:hammer:
> 
> what do you think?





al n sal said:


> I'll get my coat now:danger:


 
Hi, I do not accept that motorhome owners are victimised any more than the average motorist,we do however need to more discreet if we wish to continue our lifestyle.  Here on the south coast there is a real problem with 10 /15/ 20 motorhomes parking up for days on end during the holiday season.
Recently Bournemouth council had to fork out several £ thousands to have a large group of travellers moved on. Then several more £ thousands to clear up the site. Of course locals are going to complain. Unfortunately, in the case of motorhome owners we are being judged as travellers when we turn up en masse at the weekend.
All the local campsites charge upwards of £25 per night in the high season & judging by the “full up” signs are doing very well. If we do not wish to use then, then that’s fine, but do not expect to stay in the best spots in full view of the locals. 
Dezi


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## Pollik

> we do however need to more discreet if we wish to continue our lifestyle



I find the difference in attitudes between the UK and elsewhere very noticeable, but that might have to do with the fact that our needs/wants are more nearly met in Europe, whereas in the UK we seem to have a prohibition mentality.

Instead of making us out to be trouble makers, I am sure that they would benefit from treating us as a tourist resource.  If they don't want us on Marine Parade, that is fine, but point us to/provide us with an area where we and our money would be welcome.  Limit the staying times, if you want.  Use the carrot of water and waste to attract us to the right spot.

One has to wonder if any of these jobsworths have a motorhome or have been abroad.  They seem to have a very insular outlook.  I read a news item earlier about rubbish bin collections: "‎"“Everyone has a right to their own bin. These communal bins may work on the Continent but people will not stand for it here.”"   Says it all, really.





Polly


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## matthew123

*Give and take*

I have just returned from 3 very enjoyable days in Pembrokeshire. These were enjoyable because we explained to the local landlords and traders that we wanted to spend our money in their pubs and shops. In return they advised us where to wild camp  in their villages. Without this advice it would have meant a campsite in the middle of nowhere unable to put our money back into the local economy.As a result the locals make their money and we have a good night out. Long may this continue.  Granted the campsite would have cashed in but 25 to 30 quid per night to sleep in a bare field is not on. As mentioned in many threads we too try to support local trade.. Rather than complain we were encouraged to stay and spend our money. This cannot be done from a campsite a few miles away.


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## kimbowbill

*my email to SBC usual avoidance of answers*

I thought i would share councillor watson's response to my email i sent yesterday

this is mine

Dear Mr Watson

Could you please explain to me why Scarborough is so 'anti motorhome'

There is alot of talk about traders hating us and want us banned, i can assure you sir, this would be a real tragedy to trade, i visit 10 or 11 times per year, even in winter, as do many of my friends, their friends and so on, i always come back home and tell everyone how lovely it is, how clean, how convenient for everything, i buy fish & chips, curry, pizza, fill up with fuel, have a drink, have breakfast in the Crown Carvery every morning, buy all my shopping at lidl,and take all my rubbish home, the only thing i dont do is park on a campsite.As an example Cayton bay is £38 per night, this is absolutley ridiculous price, if i stayed on there i would'nt have any money left to spend elsewhere, I stay overnight in a car park and pay the fee of £5, but as you know this is not permitted, can you explain why.

The car parks are empty at night time, except for the odd joyrider, who ususally drives off if they see a motorhome, people will always use camspites but i choose not too, is there anything in your future plans to welcome motorhomes and if so what.

Why can't we park in the car parks legally overnight and move off by 8 in the morning? i reckon us motorhomers spend more than the average daytrippers who only come when its sunny.

Can you not adopt a 'French' attitude and provide Aires? this would encourage more people from abroad.

I fear my days are numbered with Scarborough and so so many other motorhomers are looking elsewhere to enjoy the freedom of motorhoming,

yours

Miss Morris​ ...................................................................................................................

 this his is resopnse, typical, not even answered any of my questions

Dear Miss Morris

I don't think that its only Scarborough that have this attitude but our main concern is those who are using the Marine Drive as a camp site. not only is it making the area look untidy it is taking money away from Licensed Sites which could lead to shortage of proper areas. We are not anti motorhomes in general we are anti motorhomes in the wrong place.

Regards, 

Brian F. Watson.

...........................................................................................................................................................................................

if anyone wants to email me their points to put accross to councillor Watson I am happy to do so, i one email, it would be useful to put forward some views about other countries, i can't speak as i have not experienced them, might give him some ideas on future plans?? mmm perhaps not, my eamil address is jenny.kimba@blueyonder.co.uk


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## Pollik

We do really need some kind of motorhome alliance (of the existing groups) to represent us as a whole.  And it needs to be run by people who know their way around dealing with local authorities and can be persuasive, perhaps starting with somewhere that is more likely to listen.

I am not even sure where to begin on something like this - perhaps with highways department.

Anyway, I would reply to Mr Councillor something like this:



> Forgive me for saying so, but your response seems to ignore the benefits that motorhomes bring to Scunthorpe.
> 
> Perhaps I could make a few observations:
> 
> - You say that motorhomes are camped on Marine Drive.  I would say that the motorhomes are parked.  If the owners were staying in a hotel, the vans would be parked and if the owners were sleeping on board, the vans are still parked.  They would be camping if they put out an awning, or got the barbecue out or generally earmarked space outside the van for their personal use.
> 
> - You say that the motorhomes are “untidy”.  Would you say that about, say Transit vans, or is it just motorhomes.
> 
> - Very many motorhomes only require somewhere to park.  They neither want nor need the 'extras' provided by campsites which are expensive even by Italian standards.  I would not pay £38 to park my car overnight and I will not pay £38 to park my van overnight.
> 
> - Most motorhomers have a fixed budget available to spend.  I would far rather spread that money around traders in the town and I rather think that the traders would rather I did that, too.
> 
> - The attitude taken by Scarborough contrasts starkly with attitudes in the rest of Europe, particularly France, where there are more than 8,000 Aires de service.  These are places where motorhomes are positively welcomed.  Almost all of them provide fresh water and somewhere to empty the toilet.  A good number provide electric hookup.  Most make a small charge for the water and electricity.  About a third of these aires are completely free to use. Hardly any charge more than €5.00 per night.  As result, even in February in villages which have no special attractions, it is common to see 5 or more motorhomes.  That is 10 people who need feeding and who spend in local shops.  By contrast, Scunthorpe is seeking to exclude “dozens” (per Yorkshire Post) of motorhome, by employing what does look very much like an anti-motorhome policy.  I do wonder which traders are doing the  complaining – we may not contribute to hotels and campsites, but we do contribute to other traders who, I don't suppose, will have written in support of motorhomes.  Has the council actually done any research and  canvassed the town centre traders to see what they think of the money that motorhomes can bring?
> 
> - A report in the Yorkshire Post stated that dozens of motorhomes are seen in the area.  Let us assume 2 dozen, or 24 vans, say 50 people.  If we assume a very modest spend of £10 per head, then that is £500 revenue per night or £3,500 per week for the traders of Scunthorpe without any outlay on their part.  That strikes me as a very good deal.  If motorhomes are banned, that money will be lost to Scunthorpe.  That is the choice that Scunthorpe would be making.
> 
> If you are unable or unwilling to help, perhaps you would be good enough to tell who I should be discussing my concerns with?




Polly


----------



## Tbear

Dezi said:


> By misquoting my comments [ More than 1 person used hyperbole ]  & associating me with implications that I did not make.[ I did not remotely imply the rest of this community brains had turned to mush]
> 
> I suggest we leave it at that.
> 
> Dezi


 
Very true old UN, Unfortunately when we get a serious topic, such as this, & contributors start using hyperbole such as – ripped off/bled dry/ money grabbers etc then you realise that a rational conversation is unlikely to follow. 

Is a direct quote, not a misquote and it sounds as close to being a slur on at least most of the members of this site as I have ever seen.

You used this post only as an example, so referred to others as well which may well only contain only one use of hyperbole.

Before you accuse others of being inarticulate may I suggest you read your own posts first.

I would be happy to leave it at that and get on with the more friendly business of this site

Richard


----------



## Tbear

kimbowbill said:


> I thought i would share councillor watson's response to my email i sent yesterday
> 
> this is mine
> 
> Dear Mr Watson
> 
> Could you please explain to me why Scarborough is so 'anti motorhome'
> 
> There is alot of talk about traders hating us and want us banned, i can assure you sir, this would be a real tragedy to trade, i visit 10 or 11 times per year, even in winter, as do many of my friends, their friends and so on, i always come back home and tell everyone how lovely it is, how clean, how convenient for everything, i buy fish & chips, curry, pizza, fill up with fuel, have a drink, have breakfast in the Crown Carvery every morning, buy all my shopping at lidl,and take all my rubbish home, the only thing i dont do is park on a campsite.As an example Cayton bay is £38 per night, this is absolutley ridiculous price, if i stayed on there i would'nt have any money left to spend elsewhere, I stay overnight in a car park and pay the fee of £5, but as you know this is not permitted, can you explain why.
> 
> The car parks are empty at night time, except for the odd joyrider, who ususally drives off if they see a motorhome, people will always use camspites but i choose not too, is there anything in your future plans to welcome motorhomes and if so what.
> 
> Why can't we park in the car parks legally overnight and move off by 8 in the morning? i reckon us motorhomers spend more than the average daytrippers who only come when its sunny.
> 
> Can you not adopt a 'French' attitude and provide Aires? this would encourage more people from abroad.
> 
> I fear my days are numbered with Scarborough and so so many other motorhomers are looking elsewhere to enjoy the freedom of motorhoming,
> 
> yours
> 
> Miss Morris​ ...................................................................................................................
> 
> this his is resopnse, typical, not even answered any of my questions
> 
> Dear Miss Morris
> 
> I don't think that its only Scarborough that have this attitude but our main concern is those who are using the Marine Drive as a camp site. not only is it making the area look untidy it is taking money away from Licensed Sites which could lead to shortage of proper areas. We are not anti motorhomes in general we are anti motorhomes in the wrong place.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian F. Watson.
> 
> ...........................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> if anyone wants to email me their points to put accross to councillor Watson I am happy to do so, i one email, it would be useful to put forward some views about other countries, i can't speak as i have not experienced them, might give him some ideas on future plans?? mmm perhaps not, my eamil address is jenny.kimba@blueyonder.co.uk


 
Well done a smashing email. If more people bothered to send the councillors such emails which they had to reply to then just maybe one or two might listen. Why dont you send Polly's reply it is well thought out and to the point.
Sorry but I cannot help with the motorhoming abroad as we are off on our very first trip to France at the end of the month. I hope to do a lot of research while I am there to have another go at my local council again.

Might be some info for you on my old thread English Aires

Richard


----------



## kimbowbill

Tbear said:


> Well done a smashing email. If more people bothered to send the councillors such emails which they had to reply to then just maybe one or two might listen. Why dont you send Polly's reply it is well thought out and to the point.
> Sorry but I cannot help with the motorhoming abroad as we are off on our very first trip to France at the end of the month. I hope to do a lot of research while I am there to have another go at my local council again.
> 
> Might be some info for you on my old thread English Aires
> 
> Richard


 
Hi richard, yes i will send Polly's email, its very good, i will post you his reply, if he struggled to answer my basic mail, god knows what he will do when he see's Pollys, he may resign lol


----------



## kimbowbill

Pollik said:


> We do really need some kind of motorhome alliance (of the existing groups) to represent us as a whole.  And it needs to be run by people who know their way around dealing with local authorities and can be persuasive, perhaps starting with somewhere that is more likely to listen.
> 
> I am not even sure where to begin on something like this - perhaps with highways department.
> 
> Anyway, I would reply to Mr Councillor something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polly


 
Hi Polly, this is great, i wll post tonight, wonder if he is able to answer it lol


----------



## Deleted member 3802

jenny please don't mix up scarboro with scunthope tho will you:scared::lol-053:

it may have been better if it had been scunthope that as only one cnut in it:rolleyes2:


----------



## kimbowbill

Old_Arthur said:


> jenny please don't mix up scarboro with scunthope tho will you:scared::lol-053:
> 
> it may have been better if it had been scunthope that as only one cnut in it:rolleyes2:


 
I didnt put cuntthorpe, that was polly, you are very observant for an oldie, i think Phil should make you administror, bit like that Cassandra, :scared:


----------



## Deleted member 3270

kimbowbill said:


> I thought i would share councillor watson's response to my email i sent yesterday
> 
> this is mine
> 
> Dear Mr Watson
> 
> Could you please explain to me why Scarborough is so 'anti motorhome'
> 
> There is alot of talk about traders hating us and want us banned, i can assure you sir, this would be a real tragedy to trade, i visit 10 or 11 times per year, even in winter, as do many of my friends, their friends and so on, i always come back home and tell everyone how lovely it is, how clean, how convenient for everything, i buy fish & chips, curry, pizza, fill up with fuel, have a drink, have breakfast in the Crown Carvery every morning, buy all my shopping at lidl,and take all my rubbish home, the only thing i dont do is park on a campsite.As an example Cayton bay is £38 per night, this is absolutley ridiculous price, if i stayed on there i would'nt have any money left to spend elsewhere, I stay overnight in a car park and pay the fee of £5, but as you know this is not permitted, can you explain why.
> 
> The car parks are empty at night time, except for the odd joyrider, who ususally drives off if they see a motorhome, people will always use camspites but i choose not too, is there anything in your future plans to welcome motorhomes and if so what.
> 
> Why can't we park in the car parks legally overnight and move off by 8 in the morning? i reckon us motorhomers spend more than the average daytrippers who only come when its sunny.
> 
> Can you not adopt a 'French' attitude and provide Aires? this would encourage more people from abroad.
> 
> I fear my days are numbered with Scarborough and so so many other motorhomers are looking elsewhere to enjoy the freedom of motorhoming,
> 
> yours
> 
> Miss Morris​ ...................................................................................................................
> 
> this his is resopnse, typical, not even answered any of my questions
> 
> Dear Miss Morris
> 
> I don't think that its only Scarborough that have this attitude but our main concern is those who are using the Marine Drive as a camp site. not only is it making the area look untidy it is taking money away from Licensed Sites which could lead to shortage of proper areas. We are not anti motorhomes in general we are anti motorhomes in the wrong place.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Brian F. Watson.
> 
> ...........................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> if anyone wants to email me their points to put accross to councillor Watson I am happy to do so, i one email, it would be useful to put forward some views about other countries, i can't speak as i have not experienced them, might give him some ideas on future plans?? mmm perhaps not, my eamil address is jenny.kimba@blueyonder.co.uk



Hi Jen,We're 100% behind you!  
My view is that if popular seaside resorts declare their space as a 'no go area for motorhomes' they will lose more than they think.  We frequent Scarborough on a regular basis: we enjoy the sunshine and spend at various spots along the front, we enjoy the autumn when it is fresh and breezy - more of a reason for fish and chips, and winter too - have enjoyed bonfire night, Boxing day and New Years Eve!  On all occasions, we shop and spend in the town.  WE ALSO HAVE A RUBBISH BIN AND A TOILET! - we've seen many a car visitor, eat their takeaway, stop overnight in the car with curtains and bits of sheeting pinned against the windows so that they can sleep after a few beers.  They disappear in the morning leaving takeaway wrappers, beer cans and a wet patch up against the wall behind their vehicle! 
If caravan sites offered us a pitch on which to park for a fiver, then we might use them, we don't always need water: we have our own toilet, we don't leave litter, we don't want a dingy clubhouse and we don't want to park up on a site that's miles from the town. That's why we've spent thousands of pounds on a Motorhome!  We just want to be independent people who like to visit places, park like the rest of our insurance and tax paying friends and then move on to the next place. 
Don't forget, most of us enjoy our weekends away and have a couple of weeks in the summer, we are still paying our council tax, rates and mortgages/rents on our full time residences!  Give us a break!  
Regards Mrs Wilthebeast


----------



## kimbowbill

wilthebeast said:


> Hi Jen,We're 100% behind you!
> My view is that if popular seaside resorts declare their space as a 'no go area for motorhomes' they will lose more than they think.  We frequent Scarborough on a regular basis: we enjoy the sunshine and spend at various spots along the front, we enjoy the autumn when it is fresh and breezy - more of a reason for fish and chips, and winter too - have enjoyed bonfire night, Boxing day and New Years Eve!  On all occasions, we shop and spend in the town.  WE ALSO HAVE A RUBBISH BIN AND A TOILET! - we've seen many a car visitor, eat their takeaway, stop overnight in the car with curtains and bits of sheeting pinned against the windows so that they can sleep after a few beers.  They disappear in the morning leaving takeaway wrappers, beer cans and a wet patch up against the wall behind their vehicle!
> If caravan sites offered us a pitch on which to park for a fiver, then we might use them, we don't always need water: we have our own toilet, we don't leave litter, we don't want a dingy clubhouse and we don't want to park up on a site that's miles from the town. That's why we've spent thousands of pounds on a Motorhome!  We just want to be independent people who like to visit places, park like the rest of our insurance and tax paying friends and then move on to the next place.
> Don't forget, most of us enjoy our weekends away and have a couple of weeks in the summer, we are still paying our council tax, rates and mortgages/rents on our full time residences!  Give us a break!
> Regards Mrs Wilthebeast


 
Thank you, would you mind if i copied this and send it to Mr Watson?, i am hopeing to gather peoples views and send them all together, it seems the traders are getting their say and no one is speaking up for us, i dont think for one minute anything will change but we should at least put our point accross.

Jen xx


----------



## Pollik

Old_Arthur said:


> jenny please don't mix up scarboro with scunthope tho will you:scared::lol-053:
> 
> it may have been better if it had been scunthope that as only one cnut in it:rolleyes2:


 

Oops!! I can't imagine why Scunthorpe came into my head - perhaps it was a Sandy Toksvig moment!!


Polly


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## sparrks

_"not only is it making the area look untidy it is taking money away from Licensed Sites "_

I think the councillors should be reminded exactly who is ripping off who. 

The sites are ripping off the traders (and the MH owners)by charging £38 per night to park a motorhome. As pointed out it would be better to charge a nominal fee or nothing for the parking in unused carparks, leaving the occupants of the vehicles to spend the money locally.
Maybe as a condition you would have to leave by say 8:00.

Paul


----------



## al n sal

maybe we should all email this Councillor, maybe a set email, detailing all the points


----------



## kimbowbill

al n sal said:


> maybe we should all email this Councillor, maybe a set email, detailing all the points


 
Great, B & Q it, here is is email address

Cllr.Brian.Watson@scarborough.gov.uk

we really do need to make stance, there has been some really good points raised on here, we have our rant amongst ourselves but we need to demand something is done, we shouldn't be ignored or treat like lepars, its not fair, if you go on SBC website they have a tourism strategy, they talk about looking for new innotave ideas to boost tourism, campsite occupancy is running at something like 38% or 40% cant remember, well, i wonder why, at £38 a night, Reighton sands, is a staggering £40 per night in school hols, a basic car park facility would not suit everyone, they will still get their tourers, tents and MH's using sites cos most folk like to be on sites for the facilities and security, in this day and age we should have a choice.

Jen


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## kimbowbill

*reply to Polly's email*

I sent Polly's email last night and this is cllr watsons reply

I suggest you contact the Parking Manager Stuart Clarke at the Town Hall 

that is just so funny, in other words, i dont want to deal with this, what a W****R

Jen


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## kimbowbill

*my reply*

This is my reply

Thank you, a contact email would have been useful, lets hope Mr Clarke is of more help, just for your information, Flyde Borough Council are proposing Aires type sites to overcome their problem, Your tourism strategy sets out plans to find new and innotive ideas to boost tourism, read their stratergy, heres the link

Fylde Borough Council • Motorhome parks plan to boost tourism



Miss Morris


----------



## Pollik

What an utter pillock.

I think here would be a good place to copy your emails with Mr Councillor to the Yorkshire Post.  If it is anything like the Hereford Times, they will love it.





Polly


----------



## Dezi

kimbowbill said:


> I sent Polly's email last night and this is cllr watsons reply
> 
> I suggest you contact the Parking Manager Stuart Clarke at the Town Hall
> 
> that is just so funny, in other words, i dont want to deal with this, what a W****R
> 
> Jen


 
As expected the hyperbole & abuse continues on this thread with members making out that we are some persecuted minority. Minority, yes, persecuted,no. 
Wildcamping is a very simple hobby – do not go where you are going to cause ill will. Do not expect unrealistic prices for staying over night in this Country.
Which raises the point – what is an unrealistic price? 

The Motorcarravanners club has c.l. sites all over the UK, not £38 pn or £28 or £18, but many in the £5.£6.£7.£8 price band & guess what members still moan about being ripped off. 

Such is life.

Dezi


----------



## Deleted member 3270

kimbowbill said:


> Thank you, would you mind if i copied this and send it to Mr Watson?, i am hopeing to gather peoples views and send them all together, it seems the traders are getting their say and no one is speaking up for us, i dont think for one minute anything will change but we should at least put our point accross.
> 
> Jen xx


 
Go for it jen


----------



## Pollik

That is a great reply to him!!  Brilliant.

I think we could build on Fylde to get something going, here.  Perhaps not in Scarborough, but starting in our home towns.





Polly


----------



## Deleted member 967

No one has pointed out that Aires exist and are not abused in a number of places already in the UK.  Canterbury, Northern Ireland (2), etc.

Flyde coast has decided to put a number of Aires in.  This is a tourist area like Scarborough but with a different approach.  It wasn't always this way but they had a change of opinion.

Quoting the French as an example is OK but let us not forget the UK examples as well.


----------



## Pollik

I didn't know about the one in Canterbury.

As part of the process, we perhaps should encourage them to get a listing in the Aires book.




P


----------



## Tbear

The CS & CL sites are fantastic (Oh Dear! Is this more Hyperbole?) and very good value for money but not always in the right place When you are sat in a perfectly good car park which you have payed to park in. Its got a smashing view, a public loo and a nice café just down the road. Why should we travel 10 or 15 miles away to come back and park in the same place the next day. It makes no sense.

Richard


----------



## Tbear

John Thompson said:


> No one has pointed out that Aires exist and are not abused in a number of places already in the UK.  Canterbury, Northern Ireland (2), etc.
> 
> Flyde coast has decided to put a number of Aires in.  This is a tourist area like Scarborough but with a different approach.  It wasn't always this way but they had a change of opinion.
> 
> Quoting the French as an example is OK but let us not forget the UK examples as well.


 
John,

All the forward thinking people that have been involved in the setting up of anything like an Aire in this country are to be congratulated. However the wealth of evidence for Aires, social and economic must be available somewhere in France. I just wish I new how to get at it.

Richard


----------



## maingate

This time of the year is known as 'the silly season' for news articles and I suspect this is one of them.

If anyone needs a good telling off, it is the journalist who ran the story and his/her Editor.

If you want to fire off any emails, address them to The Yorkshire Post. Ask them to investigate the conflict of interest between the Council and caravan site ownership. If they are interested in investigative journalism then they will look into it.

My personal view is that I will only go to Scarborough out of season. I do not want to spend my time in the company of mindless drunken idiots, boy racers and chavs. If it winds up like the ghost town down the coast (Bridlington) then I will not miss it at all.


----------



## kimbowbill

maingate said:


> This time of the year is known as 'the silly season' for news articles and I suspect this is one of them.
> 
> If anyone needs a good telling off, it is the journalist who ran the story and his/her Editor.
> 
> If you want to fire off any emails, address them to The Yorkshire Post. Ask them to investigate the conflict of interest between the Council and caravan site ownership. If they are interested in investigative journalism then they will look into it.
> 
> My personal view is that I will only go to Scarborough out of season. I do not want to spend my time in the company of mindless drunken idiots, boy racers and chavs. If it winds up like the ghost town down the coast (Bridlington) then I will not miss it at all.


 
I intend to do Maingate, but first, as suggested by cllr watson i am going to contact Stuart clarke, see what he has to say, I have been going to scarborough for 20+ and have never experience what you have, but like you say, if they carry on the way they are it will be like brid, hornsea, mablethorpe cleethorpes etc


jen xx


----------



## refurbisher

Spoke recently on this issue and it isn't a silly season rash column to fill a page it's an issue that's been brewing for some time. We have a 4 year old who loves his walking but nowhere is close to the front and West Pier, which on an evening is empty except for a few motorhomes (and local fisherman's vans(they don't pay for their parking)) is perfect for luring us into the chip shop, wet fish shop, cafe, ice cream parlor, chinese take-away and arcades. This won't happen if they want to push us out onto a bland site 4 miles out of town. 2 weeks ago I witnessed a Mhomer outside picking up all surrounding litter (none of which was their own) and within the hour witnessed a number of young chavs tipping rubbish out of their cars. We also had to dodge the guy beating his girlfriend and the hen night gone wrong resulting in a brawl (this was at 6.30), great family events the Council should be worrying about. If the insular and ignorant Counsilor who doesn't see all people in Scarb' as important whether local or visitors then we've one message for him, "go and treat yourself to an hour stood on West Pier one nice evening observing the emptiness of the carpark with no people spending no money with your precious traders". A fellow Mhomer told me when last there that Blackpool was putting in hookup points and water to encourage vans, who will be out of pocket, trader or mhomers out having a good time. I'll happily entertain the Yorks Post and aforementioned Councilor on West Pier one evening to discuss, although doubt they could be bothered as it is really a non-issue brought about by a few bored fisherman and locals with nought best to do.


----------



## kimbowbill

refurbisher said:


> Spoke recently on this issue and it isn't a silly season rash column to fill a page it's an issue that's been brewing for some time. We have a 4 year old who loves his walking but nowhere is close to the front and West Pier, which on an evening is empty except for a few motorhomes (and local fisherman's vans(they don't pay for their parking)) is perfect for luring us into the chip shop, wet fish shop, cafe, ice cream parlor, chinese take-away and arcades. This won't happen if they want to push us out onto a bland site 4 miles out of town. 2 weeks ago I witnessed a Mhomer outside picking up all surrounding litter (none of which was their own) and within the hour witnessed a number of young chavs tipping rubbish out of their cars. We also had to dodge the guy beating his girlfriend and the hen night gone wrong resulting in a brawl (this was at 6.30), great family events the Council should be worrying about. If the insular and ignorant Counsilor who doesn't see all people in Scarb' as important whether local or visitors then we've one message for him, "go and treat yourself to an hour stood on West Pier one nice evening observing the emptiness of the carpark with no people spending no money with your precious traders". A fellow Mhomer told me when last there that Blackpool was putting in hookup points and water to encourage vans, who will be out of pocket, trader or mhomers out having a good time. I'll happily entertain the Yorks Post and aforementioned Councilor on West Pier one evening to discuss, although doubt they could be bothered as it is really a non-issue brought about by a few bored fisherman and locals with nought best to do.


 
yep, i can relate to all you say, many times i have litter picked, the ignorant cllr hasnt got a clue whats going on, they use their spin to get elected and thats it, i contaced  cll blunkett last week regarding another issue, i got a full explaination and even a thank you for contacting them, keeps me happy, Mr watson is a tit, i have emailed Stuart clarke, as suggested, lets see what he says, i know some on here will say i'm wasting my time, but its my time to waste, i can try for nowt, i am off to Scarborough in the morning for a few days, i will do my own research, 

Jen


----------



## joncris

The council busybodies need an excuse for failing to improve trade in their town

What they should do & Torquay is a prime example where its got beyond a joke (visitor numbers are down because of the adverse publicity about parking), is stop waging war on ALL motorists & that includes MH's. Make ALL visitors welcome & see the pick up in trade. Also its been found (in Denmark I think) that in roads without restrictions motorists police themselves


----------



## Pollik

Refurbisher has added another dimension to the discussion and one which is worth putting to the council and to the councillors who have ears.

There will always be some motorhomers who leave rubbish, but that applies to all users.  One answer is to leave a commercial waste bin nearby...seems to work much better than inadequately size litter bins.

I can feel a campaign coming on.  Start with my local authority and learn from the experience before moving on to other authorities.

I am going away from three months at the end of the week, so I may wait till I get back in September.




Polly


----------



## Deleted member 967

Pollik said:


> Refurbisher has added another dimension to the discussion and one which is worth putting to the council and to the councillors who have ears.
> 
> There will always be some motorhomers who leave rubbish, but that applies to all users.  One answer is to leave a commercial waste bin nearby...seems to work much better than inadequately size litter bins.
> 
> I can feel a campaign coming on.  Start with my local authority and learn from the experience before moving on to other authorities.
> 
> I am going away from three months at the end of the week, so I may wait till I get back in September.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polly


 
I was in the Coach Park at Warkworth last September.  That had big bins and a recycling facilities.

The ground was covered in take away containers and other rubbish dropped by the bus passengers.  So providing big bins didn't work for that parking area.

The council came to empty the bins while we were there but just left the other rubbish to blow about.  If it wasn't in the bin it didn't get removed.  We picked it up and put it in the now empty bin.


----------



## Pollik

@John Thompson and Refurbisher - may I quote from your posts in something I am thinking about putting together?

At the risk of breaking forum rule, I found this about UK aires UK Aires - Motorhome Stopovers & Service Points

To get the tourism benefits, these aires should really be thinking about getting themselves entries in camping-car : The best European guide to motorhome sanistations and Vicarious Books motorhome aires stopovers, caravan camping site guide books ACSI Camping Card.


Polly


----------



## AndyC

Pollik said:


> @John Thompson and Refurbisher - may I quote from your posts in something I am thinking about putting together?
> 
> At the risk of breaking forum rule, I found this about UK aires UK Aires - Motorhome Stopovers & Service Points


Unfortunately that page is seriously outdated. Motorcaravan Magazine ceased publication last year I think, and they had lost interest in their 'Stopovers Campaign' long before that. The listing of stopovers is very incomplete. I list the ones I know about here: Overnight stopovers for motorhomes in the UK and Ireland



> To get the tourism benefits, these aires should really be thinking about getting themselves entries in camping-car : The best European guide to motorhome sanistations and Vicarious Books motorhome aires stopovers, caravan camping site guide books ACSI Camping Card.


Trouble is, most are not really 'aires'.

AndyC


----------



## Deleted member 967

Pollik said:


> @John Thompson and Refurbisher - may I quote from your posts in something I am thinking about putting together?
> 
> At the risk of breaking forum rule, I found this about UK aires UK Aires - Motorhome Stopovers & Service Points
> 
> To get the tourism benefits, these aires should really be thinking about getting themselves entries in camping-car : The best European guide to motorhome sanistations and Vicarious Books motorhome aires stopovers, caravan camping site guide books ACSI Camping Card.
> 
> 
> Polly


 
No problem in quoting me.  Have you checked out Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking
It has information from councils on their policy and provision.


----------



## refurbisher

Hi Pollik

Go for it!!:cheers:


----------



## Mark D

If I go away for a weekend I take say £200, whatever we can afford at the time. This money usually always get spent. If I have to pay £50 for a campsite then fish and chips it is, if we camp free then we will sit down and eat. Either way the local traders get £200 from us. If they expect us to pay £50 camping fee and still spend £200 in the shops then for us it simply cannot happen.


----------



## Pollik

Thanks for that John - I haven't seen that before....



Polly


----------



## Deleted member 775

we used to visit the east coast often when we lived up north :dance: and i have always been of the oppinion that the traders have never been bothered about vans parked up ,but things may have changed now .i dont know about anyone else on the site but ,whenever we visited a resort or realy anywhare we used to get there early ,and find a parking place ,if you get there nice and early you could always find a free place before the other day trippers found them  and as we had a van capable of being able to cook in in it and make tea why would we want to visit overpriced ,caffs food was taken with us again baught from cheap supermarkets not overpriced local shops ,and then at night a couple of miles drive to the outskirts to find a layby and then a couple of drinks from a reasonably priced off licence and a meal cooked in the van  not in a pub that charges max they can for a pint and a bar snack  a good time is had and thats the way to beat the camp sites and the ungratefull local traders. after all is that not what we are supposed to do when we go off in our vans  thats why they are fitted with cookers and fridges to use . and as for wanting toilets open 24 hours dont our van come equiped with loos oh and showers too  and the money we save on spending our hard earned cash on people that dont want us arround we will have more left for fuel ,to give to an ungratefull government ..... we cannot win can we


----------



## Pollik

> the debate continues then, will be interesing to see what happens, especially when one of the councillors owns a caravan site



And he will, of course, declare an interest and stand down....won't he?



Polly


----------



## yorkslass

sparrks said:


> _"not only is it making the area look untidy it is taking money away from Licensed Sites "_
> 
> I think the councillors should be reminded exactly who is ripping off who.
> 
> The sites are ripping off the traders (and the MH owners)by charging £38 per night to park a motorhome. As pointed out it would be better to charge a nominal fee or nothing for the parking in unused carparks, leaving the occupants of the vehicles to spend the money locally.
> Maybe as a condition you would have to leave by say 8:00.
> 
> Paul


 why would we have to leave by 8:00 if the required parking fee was paid? at the end of the day we are no different to other visitors. by the way i am not advocating spending days in one place.


----------



## Byronic

I'm with you on the various points you make Mandrake, furthermore my philosophy extends to the general principle that I don't owe anything to local traders and I don't feel obliged to use any service if I choose not to. If a trader has something to sell then I may buy it if I think it benefits me,it's called the "free market". Does the trader himself buy only British made stock? I think not. 
True, M/Homes may wildcamp overlong in popular spots, and therefore deny others the same privilege, no reasonable person would object to a max. stay period, applying equally to all vehicles, not singling out M/Homes.
My M/Home may be an unsightly scene for the more aesthetically inclined local, but I would say to him/her "you may consider my  M/Home unsightly but in the morning at least I'll be gone, whereas many of the aesthetically challenged buildings in your town will still be there in a hundred years".


----------



## sparrks

yorkslass said:


> why would we have to leave by 8:00 if the required parking fee was paid? at the end of the day we are no different to other visitors. by the way i am not advocating spending days in one place.


 
I was trying to think of a way to stop people parking up for days on end. I was thinking of a recent story of an elderly motorhome owner parked up for a fortnight down at St Michaels Mount in Cornwall. Some people do take the Pi$$ on occasions.


----------



## Pollik

The usual way is to say.3 nights maximum.  Not really rocket science.


----------



## kimbowbill

John Thompson said:


> No problem in quoting me.  Have you checked out Motorhome Friendly and Unfriendly Parking
> It has information from councils on their policy and provision.


 
Hi John

I dont know about most of the parking on this site but Scarborough tickets are now NOT TRANSFERABLE, i got caught out, sont want any 1 else too

Jen xx


----------



## fofeg101

I don't wish to offend any of our members who may have the misfortune to live around there but Scarborough is way down on my list of places I want to visit, I've lumped it in with my other "no wish to visit" places, I don't want to visit, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, China or Cyprus. If the no overnight parking applies it will just reinforce my decision to avoid the place. BTW, I must confess, I did visit Scotland.....once!!.


----------



## kimbowbill

fofeg101 said:


> I don't wish to offend any of our members who may have the misfortune to live around there but Scarborough is way down on my list of places I want to visit, I've lumped it in with my other "no wish to visit" places, I don't want to visit, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, China or Cyprus. If the no overnight parking applies it will just reinforce my decision to avoid the place. BTW, I must confess, I did visit Scotland.....once!!.


 
i think thats a vary unfair comment to say misfortune, there is some very beautiful places surrounding Scarborough, each to their own, it wunt do for us to all to like same places,  where do you like to visit? or is that top secret fofeg

Jen


----------



## refurbisher

Been back again for our sins, this time without thr 4 year old. £55 quid in the local Thai restaraunt (Sawasdi krab) etc.etc. Up at 5 this morning to catch a couple of Dabs, nobody else in the carpark, felt real guilty about the space we'd taken up. Had a couple of hours on Marine Drive with some top Wild Campers, watched the Peregrines overhead the castle, I am not an animal my name is Lee Merrick. Was that his name if not u knew what I was saying, I'm just a Mhomer.:lol-053:


----------



## Deleted member 967

refurbisher said:


> Been back again for our sins, this time without thr 4 year old. £55 quid in the local Thai restaraunt (Sawasdi krab) etc.etc. Up at 5 this morning to catch a couple of Dabs, nobody else in the carpark, felt real guilty about the space we'd taken up. Had a couple of hours on Marine Drive with some top Wild Campers, watched the Peregrines overhead the castle, I am not an animal my name is Lee Merrick. Was that his name if not u knew what I was saying, I'm just a Mhomer.:lol-053:


 
There is not much point making comments on a motorhome forum and expecting things to change.  On these forums you are preaching to the converted.

Joan and I have been thinking about this issue.

If every motorhomer visiting a town had some calling cards printed to hand out to establishments where they had spent money, saying for example,

"We are vising motorhome users and have just spent money in your establishment.  Please support us in our desire to be able to park on the towns car parks without restriction when we visit your town."

Something along these lines would give us a higher profile with those establishments we are supporting with our spending, and hopefully they would then be able to put forward the benefits to trade to those who seem to be against Motorhomes parking.

Just our thoughts

We tend to use our Smart car to visit places or to shop.


----------



## donkey too

Now I reckon thats a good idea mate. If cards were printed we could have the reverse side with the site logo on and maybe get a few more members that way.
I already have www.wildcamping.co.uk printed on the back of my personal cards.


----------



## Tbear

John Thompson said:


> There is not much point making comments on a motorhome forum and expecting things to change.  On these forums you are preaching to the converted.
> 
> Joan and I have been thinking about this issue.
> 
> If every motorhomer visiting a town had some calling cards printed to hand out to establishments where they had spent money, saying for example,
> 
> "We are vising motorhome users and have just spent money in your establishment.  Please support us in our desire to be able to park on the towns car parks without restriction when we visit your town."
> 
> 
> Something along these lines would give us a higher profile with those establishments we are supporting with our spending, and hopefully they would then be able to put forward the benefits to trade to those who seem to be against Motorhomes parking.
> 
> Just our thoughts
> 
> We tend to use our Smart car to visit places or to shop.


 
Hi John,

I like your thinking. Not sure I want to hand cards out or the unrestricted parking, might be asking too much. However it would not hurt to mention to traders that you find it difficult to park your motorhome near their business and your peers have similar problems so are unable to use them most of the time. I do not expect any of them will go screaming at the council for us but they may stop sounding off against us in the local press.

Richard


----------



## kimbowbill

John Thompson said:


> There is not much point making comments on a motorhome forum and expecting things to change.  On these forums you are preaching to the converted.
> 
> Joan and I have been thinking about this issue.
> 
> If every motorhomer visiting a town had some calling cards printed to hand out to establishments where they had spent money, saying for example,
> 
> "We are vising motorhome users and have just spent money in your establishment.  Please support us in our desire to be able to park on the towns car parks without restriction when we visit your town."
> 
> Something along these lines would give us a higher profile with those establishments we are supporting with our spending, and hopefully they would then be able to put forward the benefits to trade to those who seem to be against Motorhomes parking.
> 
> Just our thoughts
> 
> We tend to use our Smart car to visit places or to shop.


 
Great idea, i was thinking of something similar but mine was like having our own currency or tokens what you buy from council but yours is a much better idea, love it John


----------



## Bernard Jones

Interesting discussion about this very same subject on Radio Devon over Easter. A local landlord complained that all 5 of his holiday apartments were empty over Easter, because everyone was camping.  Another local replied this was a very good thing, because he could rent his holiday apartments out to local people long term as there is a desperate shortage of affordable rented accommodation.  Of course that would involve the landlord lowering his rents....


----------



## John H

John Thompson said:


> There is not much point making comments on a motorhome forum and expecting things to change.  On these forums you are preaching to the converted.
> 
> Joan and I have been thinking about this issue.
> 
> If every motorhomer visiting a town had some calling cards printed to hand out to establishments where they had spent money, saying for example,
> 
> "We are vising motorhome users and have just spent money in your establishment.  Please support us in our desire to be able to park on the towns car parks without restriction when we visit your town."
> 
> Something along these lines would give us a higher profile with those establishments we are supporting with our spending, and hopefully they would then be able to put forward the benefits to trade to those who seem to be against Motorhomes parking.
> 
> Just our thoughts
> 
> We tend to use our Smart car to visit places or to shop.


 
I like the idea, John but I can see one major hitch - most of our shopping is done in garages/supermarkets where you are dealing with employees who will not necessarily have any interest in passing the cards onto their employers (and indeed may have instructions not to accept anything). Short of asking to see the manager every time you shop, I can't think of a way round this. But I think you may be onto something if it can be refined. Happy travels,


----------



## Deleted member 967

John H said:


> I like the idea, John but I can see one major hitch - most of our shopping is done in garages/supermarkets where you are dealing with employees who will not necessarily have any interest in passing the cards onto their employers (and indeed may have instructions not to accept anything). Short of asking to see the manager every time you shop, I can't think of a way round this. But I think you may be onto something if it can be refined. Happy travels,


 
We are happy for anyone to refine this into a useable item.

Most supermarkets have a customer services counter where it could be handed in.


----------



## Tbear

John Thompson said:


> We are happy for anyone to refine this into a usable item.
> 
> Most supermarkets have a customer services counter where it could be handed in.


 
Might be going a little off topic but rather than hand in a card I thought I would send Sainburys the following email;-

Dear Sir,

My wife and I often spend weekends and holidays touring the UK in our motorhome. We find Sainburys the ideal place to call in and buy food and fuel during our travels. We have shopped with you at our local branch for many years so we know you are a brand we can trust. We very rarely find it difficult to park and you do not seem to use hight barriers.
The problem we have is parking at night. Campsites often charge £40.00 plus per night in the high season. They justify this by offering services we do not need. Water, showers, electricity, etc. Motorhomes are self sufficient so do not need any of these things. What we do need is a hard surface to park on as we tend to sink into grass in wet weather. Often a problem on sites. The nearest site can be many miles away.
Sainburys have branches everywhere with large empty carparks at night. A Motorhome parked in one of these becomes a free security guard, helping to prevent vandalism and graffiti. They are not likely to then drive to Tescos to get their shopping. When they pop in, in the morning to get their paper, they may well pick a few other things while they are there? Purchase fuel on the way out?
I am well aware of the problems with the travelling community moving into inappropriate areas and staying for weeks, leaving behind all sorts of mess so I am not suggesting a free for all. Perhaps a time limit of 10pm to 8am with an hour or two on one end to do some shopping. You could limit it to nectar card holders with a minimum number of points earned per year. You could make a small charge for a badge that had to be displayed with a serial number so if anyone caused a problem could be banned.
I know Tescos and Aldi will sometimes allow overnight stays if you approach the duty manager with a couple of bags of shopping that you have just purchased from them but it would be wonderful if Sainburys was the first to produce a proper system as I believe Walmart have in America so Asda may well do in this country.

Kind Regards


I will post the reply if I get more than a generic "Thankyou for your email blah blah blah"


Richard


----------



## John H

Tbear said:


> Might be going a little off topic but rather than hand in a card I thought I would send Sainburys the following email;-
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> My wife and I often spend weekends and holidays touring the UK in our motorhome. We find Sainburys the ideal place to call in and buy food and fuel during our travels. We have shopped with you at our local branch for many years so we know you are a brand we can trust. We very rarely find it difficult to park and you do not seem to use hight barriers.
> The problem we have is parking at night. Campsites often charge £40.00 plus per night in the high season. They justify this by offering services we do not need. Water, showers, electricity, etc. Motorhomes are self sufficient so do not need any of these things. What we do need is a hard surface to park on as we tend to sink into grass in wet weather. Often a problem on sites. The nearest site can be many miles away.
> Sainburys have branches everywhere with large empty carparks at night. A Motorhome parked in one of these becomes a free security guard, helping to prevent vandalism and graffiti. They are not likely to then drive to Tescos to get their shopping. When they pop in, in the morning to get their paper, they may well pick a few other things while they are there? Purchase fuel on the way out?
> I am well aware of the problems with the travelling community moving into inappropriate areas and staying for weeks, leaving behind all sorts of mess so I am not suggesting a free for all. Perhaps a time limit of 10pm to 8am with an hour or two on one end to do some shopping. You could limit it to nectar card holders with a minimum number of points earned per year. You could make a small charge for a badge that had to be displayed with a serial number so if anyone caused a problem could be banned.
> I know Tescos and Aldi will sometimes allow overnight stays if you approach the duty manager with a couple of bags of shopping that you have just purchased from them but it would be wonderful if Sainburys was the first to produce a proper system as I believe Walmart have in America so Asda may well do in this country.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> I will post the reply if I get more than a generic "Thankyou for your email blah blah blah"
> 
> 
> Richard


 
Good idea Richard - and good luck with it - but I tend to have a gut feeling on these things that it is not so much what you say but the number of times it is said. If supermarkets were deluged with cards of the type John  suggests then they might start to think about it, whereas a few e-mails are likely to get lost in the system. I really like John's idea but still have another gut feeling that because you are dealing with employees (even at customer service counters) then there is not going to be the enthusiasm to pass the info up the line. I'm not trying to pour cold water on any of these ideas but I think it is important before you start any campaign to look at all the potential holes and fill them if you can. On a more constructive note, could I suggest that any card/certificate could be posted on this forum so we could print it off and the campaign would have an organised feel to it rather than just a few people doing their own thing?


----------



## Tbear

John H said:


> Good idea Richard - and good luck with it - but I tend to have a gut feeling on these things that it is not so much what you say but the number of times it is said. If supermarkets were deluged with cards of the type John  suggests then they might start to think about it, whereas a few e-mails are likely to get lost in the system. I really like John's idea but still have another gut feeling that because you are dealing with employees (even at customer service counters) then there is not going to be the enthusiasm to pass the info up the line. I'm not trying to pour cold water on any of these ideas but I think it is important before you start any campaign to look at all the potential holes and fill them if you can. On a more constructive note, could I suggest that any card/certificate could be posted on this forum so we could print it off and the campaign would have an organised feel to it rather than just a few people doing their own thing?


 
Hi John,

Yes I agree that no single Email or card is going to do any good but the more people write, email, card, complain in person, the more chance the correct person will get the "hint"

Richard


----------



## Deleted member 3802

the latest plan by the councillors in benefits on sea is to stop us outsiders using our free bus passes on the sea front bus routes:dance: they would rather the seat be empty than only get half price from the government for it


----------



## jezport

I like the idea of the cards,  we would need to try to get all the motorhome forums to do a card for maximum impact.


----------



## al n sal

Old_Arthur said:


> the latest plan by the councillors in benefits on sea is to stop us outsiders using our free bus passes on the sea front bus routes:dance: they would rather the seat be empty than only get half price from the government for it


 
if they can save some money on this then its more expenses for them to claim.....simples.....:lol-053:


----------



## crowan

Interestingly there has been nothing reported about despairing traders - or anyone else despairing - in the Scarborough Evening Post. I wonder who they are? I can't really see any of the cafes (who are the ones close enough to know who's parking) complaining. The Oasis has just been refurbished to attract surfers, many of whom are in motorhomes and campervans.


----------



## Deleted member 3802

as  a regular visitor to benefits on sea i don't believe any traders have complained the council only have to use them to get the ball rolling,i would have thought they had enough problems with the sea defences,oats,the sands development and the pavilion to keep them more than bizzy,but then again i suppose it helps to take peoples eye off the ball


----------



## Tbear

Tbear said:


> Might be going a little off topic but rather than hand in a card I thought I would send Sainburys the following email;-
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> My wife and I often spend weekends and holidays touring the UK in our motorhome. We find Sainburys the ideal place to call in and buy food and fuel during our travels. We have shopped with you at our local branch for many years so we know you are a brand we can trust. We very rarely find it difficult to park and you do not seem to use hight barriers.
> The problem we have is parking at night. Campsites often charge £40.00 plus per night in the high season. They justify this by offering services we do not need. Water, showers, electricity, etc. Motorhomes are self sufficient so do not need any of these things. What we do need is a hard surface to park on as we tend to sink into grass in wet weather. Often a problem on sites. The nearest site can be many miles away.
> Sainburys have branches everywhere with large empty carparks at night. A Motorhome parked in one of these becomes a free security guard, helping to prevent vandalism and graffiti. They are not likely to then drive to Tescos to get their shopping. When they pop in, in the morning to get their paper, they may well pick a few other things while they are there? Purchase fuel on the way out?
> I am well aware of the problems with the travelling community moving into inappropriate areas and staying for weeks, leaving behind all sorts of mess so I am not suggesting a free for all. Perhaps a time limit of 10pm to 8am with an hour or two on one end to do some shopping. You could limit it to nectar card holders with a minimum number of points earned per year. You could make a small charge for a badge that had to be displayed with a serial number so if anyone caused a problem could be banned.
> I know Tescos and Aldi will sometimes allow overnight stays if you approach the duty manager with a couple of bags of shopping that you have just purchased from them but it would be wonderful if Sainburys was the first to produce a proper system as I believe Walmart have in America so Asda may well do in this country.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> 
> I will post the reply if I get more than a generic "Thankyou for your email blah blah blah"
> 
> 
> Richard


 
Just got the following;-

Dear Richard

Thanks for your email.  We appreciate you taking the time to get in touch as your feedback is important to us. 

We want to ensure you receive great service, so I need to investigate your query a little further.  I’ll be back in touch as soon as possible.   

Thanks for your patience.


Kind regards

Stephen Henderson
Customer Manager


Fingers crossed. Maybe they are looking into it???


----------



## kimbowbill

*Updated email from SBC*

Hi Just thought i would pass on the response from jane wilson, Parking manager SBC,

Dear Miss Morris
 I refer to your email to Stuart Clark, which has been forwarded to me for a response. 
The Councils current policy on Motor home parking in its off street car parks is that no person should use any part of a parking place for sleeping, camping or cooking. 
The policy is decided on by elected members. Scarborough Borough Council have encountered problems with motor homes parking and leaving behind rubbish and on occasions even emptying chemical toilets. The Council have had to spend large amounts of money with the associated clean up. 
The Council also receive a number of complaints from traders, as alluded to in your email to Cllr Watson. It is unfortunate that a small majority of motorhome owners tarnish the reputation of others, however due to the problems encountered this policy remains in place. Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area which cater specifically for motor homes, the council’s car parks do not have any basic facilities including running water. You may wish to browse the site below for low cost alternative campsites other than the one you refer to.Camping and Caravan Sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey Whilst I understand that you would have preferred a more positive response, I trust this clarifies the situation. 

Yours Sincerely 

Jane Wilson
Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey


----------



## jezport

I would ask for the addresses of the sites which she says are specifically for motor homes?

All types of waste is left by all visitors, any person dumping waste should be dealt with, but to pick motorhomers out and ban them is stupid.

Who fancies meeting up there this weekend :cool1::cool1::cool1:


----------



## kimbowbill

jezport said:


> I would ask for the addresses of the sites which she says are specifically for motor homes?
> 
> All types of waste is left by all visitors, any person dumping waste should be dealt with, but to pick motorhomers out and ban them is stupid.
> 
> Who fancies meeting up there this weekend :cool1::cool1::cool1:


 
Hi Jez

I'm actually there for a week next week with all my family, they are renting a house and i'm parking in the road:cool1:, see what happens, we aint gunna change anything, the only way they will welcome MH is when all stop going and they are begging us to come back and thats not going to happen.

Jen


----------



## jezport

I have just sent this email:

Dear Mrs Wilson,

I have recently read that Scarborough traders are being upset by motorhomes parked on Marine Drive. Firstly I presume that it is caravan site owners who are the main complainers as they see every parked van as a lost customer. Well in reality there are a type of motorhomer who will mainly stay off sites for a few different reasons and if stopped doing so will just cross the area off their visiting list. I will list a few reasons why caravan sites are not every motor home owners choice.

Most caravan sites offer services that a motorhome owner does not require, as motorhomes have their own built in fresh and waste water systems storing enough water for a good few days, maybe even a week. 

Many caravan sites force you onto expensive pitches with power etc if their regular unserviced pitches are full. Motorhomes do not need these extra services.

Many motorhome owners do not have such fixed plans as caravan owners because we are self contained. We may decide last minute that we want to go to an area and last minute the decent sites are full.

Motorhoming is a hobby that is carried out 12 months a year. Sites do not open all year.

Some motorhomers do not like being on a site where they are packed in like battery hens and then pay for the privilege.

Some motorhomers are disabled and therefore cannot walk or get around if they are denied a parking space close to the resort. 

Some sites are too expensive for the services they offer motorhomes as caravans take two places for a car and a caravan but motorhomes pay the same. A Rip off

Caravanners can dump their caravan and drive into town. motorhomers cannot.

If an area persecutes motorhomers we go elsewhere, another resort, or lets not forget that most pub landlords with car parks will welcome our trade. We will not be forced to go where we don’t want to go. The idea of motorhoming is for the freedom it offers. Don’t forget that many motorhome owners are retired (as motorhomes are expensive to buy and run) and many have a high disposable income and on the other hand many people with limited incomes have chosen more frugal vans to enable them to enjoy holidays they would not otherwise afford.

Marine Drive has 1000s of spaces which are unused at night, why can the council not see the potential benefits to all of offering overnight parking to camper vans and motorhomes?

I have spent many hundreds of pounds in the resorts of Yorkshire. Yes I have used sites but mainly have parked up on a street where I am no trouble to anyone. I hope to continue to eat fish and chips and shop in Scarborough however I don’t go where I am not welcomed and I know there are hundreds of other places in the UK and Europe where my holiday £ will be appreciated.

Please let me know if I should continue to visit Scarborough so that I can let other members of the various clubs and motorhome communities know weather to cross Scarborough off their visiting list or not. That will surely not help trade! Please do not patronise me with unsubstantiated stories about motorhome owners leaving waste, as we all know that there will always be a percentage of all tourists whether in cars on foot or in vans that will always break the law, that is part of the tourist industry and there are laws to deal with it.

Kind Regards
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX


----------



## kimbowbill

jezport said:


> I have just sent this email:
> 
> Dear Mrs Wilson,
> 
> I have recently read that Scarborough traders are being upset by motorhomes parked on Marine Drive. Firstly I presume that it is caravan site owners who are the main complainers as they see every parked van as a lost customer. Well in reality there are a type of motorhomer who will mainly stay off sites for a few different reasons and if stopped doing so will just cross the area off their visiting list. I will list a few reasons why caravan sites are not every motor home owners choice.
> 
> Most caravan sites offer services that a motorhome owner does not require, as motorhomes have their own built in fresh and waste water systems storing enough water for a good few days, maybe even a week.
> 
> Many caravan sites force you onto expensive pitches with power etc if their regular unserviced pitches are full. Motorhomes do not need these extra services.
> 
> Many motorhome owners do not have such fixed plans as caravan owners because we are self contained. We may decide last minute that we want to go to an area and last minute the decent sites are full.
> 
> Motorhoming is a hobby that is carried out 12 months a year. Sites do not open all year.
> 
> Some motorhomers do not like being on a site where they are packed in like battery hens and then pay for the privilege.
> 
> Some motorhomers are disabled and therefore cannot walk or get around if they are denied a parking space close to the resort.
> 
> Some sites are too expensive for the services they offer motorhomes as caravans take two places for a car and a caravan but motorhomes pay the same. A Rip off
> 
> Caravanners can dump their caravan and drive into town. motorhomers cannot.
> 
> If an area persecutes motorhomers we go elsewhere, another resort, or lets not forget that most pub landlords with car parks will welcome our trade. We will not be forced to go where we don’t want to go. The idea of motorhoming is for the freedom it offers. Don’t forget that many motorhome owners are retired (as motorhomes are expensive to buy and run) and many have a high disposable income and on the other hand many people with limited incomes have chosen more frugal vans to enable them to enjoy holidays they would not otherwise afford.
> 
> Marine Drive has 1000s of spaces which are unused at night, why can the council not see the potential benefits to all of offering overnight parking to camper vans and motorhomes?
> 
> I have spent many hundreds of pounds in the resorts of Yorkshire. Yes I have used sites but mainly have parked up on a street where I am no trouble to anyone. I hope to continue to eat fish and chips and shop in Scarborough however I don’t go where I am not welcomed and I know there are hundreds of other places in the UK and Europe where my holiday £ will be appreciated.
> 
> Please let me know if I should continue to visit Scarborough so that I can let other members of the various clubs and motorhome communities know weather to cross Scarborough off their visiting list or not. That will surely not help trade! Please do not patronise me with unsubstantiated stories about motorhome owners leaving waste, as we all know that there will always be a percentage of all tourists whether in cars on foot or in vans that will always break the law, that is part of the tourist industry and there are laws to deal with it.
> 
> Kind Regards
> XXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXX


 
Thats great Jez, i'm having a few personal family probs at mo and not able to find the right words, you have done us proud, please let us know the response

Jen


----------



## jezport

kimbowbill said:


> Hi Jez
> 
> I'm actually there for a week next week with all my family, they are renting a house and i'm parking in the road:cool1:, see what happens, we aint gunna change anything, the only way they will welcome MH is when all stop going and they are begging us to come back and thats not going to happen.
> 
> Jen



If the weather forecast is good we are probably going over on Friday afternoon and will be wild camping, I have a serious back problem so have a blue badge, so I think they will think twice about trying to move me on.


----------



## Deleted member 3270

jezport said:


> I have just sent this email:
> 
> Dear Mrs Wilson,
> 
> I have recently read that Scarborough traders are being upset by motorhomes parked on Marine Drive. Firstly I presume that it is caravan site owners who are the main complainers as they see every parked van as a lost customer. Well in reality there are a type of motorhomer who will mainly stay off sites for a few different reasons and if stopped doing so will just cross the area off their visiting list. I will list a few reasons why caravan sites are not every motor home owners choice.
> 
> Most caravan sites offer services that a motorhome owner does not require, as motorhomes have their own built in fresh and waste water systems storing enough water for a good few days, maybe even a week.
> 
> Many caravan sites force you onto expensive pitches with power etc if their regular unserviced pitches are full. Motorhomes do not need these extra services.
> 
> Many motorhome owners do not have such fixed plans as caravan owners because we are self contained. We may decide last minute that we want to go to an area and last minute the decent sites are full.
> 
> Motorhoming is a hobby that is carried out 12 months a year. Sites do not open all year.
> 
> Some motorhomers do not like being on a site where they are packed in like battery hens and then pay for the privilege.
> 
> Some motorhomers are disabled and therefore cannot walk or get around if they are denied a parking space close to the resort.
> 
> Some sites are too expensive for the services they offer motorhomes as caravans take two places for a car and a caravan but motorhomes pay the same. A Rip off
> 
> Caravanners can dump their caravan and drive into town. motorhomers cannot.
> 
> If an area persecutes motorhomers we go elsewhere, another resort, or lets not forget that most pub landlords with car parks will welcome our trade. We will not be forced to go where we don’t want to go. The idea of motorhoming is for the freedom it offers. Don’t forget that many motorhome owners are retired (as motorhomes are expensive to buy and run) and many have a high disposable income and on the other hand many people with limited incomes have chosen more frugal vans to enable them to enjoy holidays they would not otherwise afford.
> 
> Marine Drive has 1000s of spaces which are unused at night, why can the council not see the potential benefits to all of offering overnight parking to camper vans and motorhomes?
> 
> I have spent many hundreds of pounds in the resorts of Yorkshire. Yes I have used sites but mainly have parked up on a street where I am no trouble to anyone. I hope to continue to eat fish and chips and shop in Scarborough however I don’t go where I am not welcomed and I know there are hundreds of other places in the UK and Europe where my holiday £ will be appreciated.
> 
> Please let me know if I should continue to visit Scarborough so that I can let other members of the various clubs and motorhome communities know weather to cross Scarborough off their visiting list or not. That will surely not help trade! Please do not patronise me with unsubstantiated stories about motorhome owners leaving waste, as we all know that there will always be a percentage of all tourists whether in cars on foot or in vans that will always break the law, that is part of the tourist industry and there are laws to deal with it.
> 
> Kind Regards
> XXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXX


 WELL DONE JEZ
good on you, cant wait to see his reply


----------



## Deleted member 3270

jezport said:


> I have just sent this email:
> 
> Dear Mrs Wilson,
> 
> I have recently read that Scarborough traders are being upset by motorhomes parked on Marine Drive. Firstly I presume that it is caravan site owners who are the main complainers as they see every parked van as a lost customer. Well in reality there are a type of motorhomer who will mainly stay off sites for a few different reasons and if stopped doing so will just cross the area off their visiting list. I will list a few reasons why caravan sites are not every motor home owners choice.
> 
> Most caravan sites offer services that a motorhome owner does not require, as motorhomes have their own built in fresh and waste water systems storing enough water for a good few days, maybe even a week.
> 
> Many caravan sites force you onto expensive pitches with power etc if their regular unserviced pitches are full. Motorhomes do not need these extra services.
> 
> Many motorhome owners do not have such fixed plans as caravan owners because we are self contained. We may decide last minute that we want to go to an area and last minute the decent sites are full.
> 
> Motorhoming is a hobby that is carried out 12 months a year. Sites do not open all year.
> 
> Some motorhomers do not like being on a site where they are packed in like battery hens and then pay for the privilege.
> 
> Some motorhomers are disabled and therefore cannot walk or get around if they are denied a parking space close to the resort.
> 
> Some sites are too expensive for the services they offer motorhomes as caravans take two places for a car and a caravan but motorhomes pay the same. A Rip off
> 
> Caravanners can dump their caravan and drive into town. motorhomers cannot.
> 
> If an area persecutes motorhomers we go elsewhere, another resort, or lets not forget that most pub landlords with car parks will welcome our trade. We will not be forced to go where we don’t want to go. The idea of motorhoming is for the freedom it offers. Don’t forget that many motorhome owners are retired (as motorhomes are expensive to buy and run) and many have a high disposable income and on the other hand many people with limited incomes have chosen more frugal vans to enable them to enjoy holidays they would not otherwise afford.
> 
> Marine Drive has 1000s of spaces which are unused at night, why can the council not see the potential benefits to all of offering overnight parking to camper vans and motorhomes?
> 
> I have spent many hundreds of pounds in the resorts of Yorkshire. Yes I have used sites but mainly have parked up on a street where I am no trouble to anyone. I hope to continue to eat fish and chips and shop in Scarborough however I don’t go where I am not welcomed and I know there are hundreds of other places in the UK and Europe where my holiday £ will be appreciated.
> 
> Please let me know if I should continue to visit Scarborough so that I can let other members of the various clubs and motorhome communities know weather to cross Scarborough off their visiting list or not. That will surely not help trade! Please do not patronise me with unsubstantiated stories about motorhome owners leaving waste, as we all know that there will always be a percentage of all tourists whether in cars on foot or in vans that will always break the law, that is part of the tourist industry and there are laws to deal with it.
> 
> Kind Regards
> XXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXX



I'm with you too Jez.
Sites offer all the facilities that caravaners want, that's why they have a caravan and use these sites: as you said, motorhomers don't need all of these facilities, we all chose to spend thousands of pounds on a motorhome in order to have freedom and be self sufficient!  Why would we want to pay in the region of £30 to park on a piece of grass, miles from the main resort and surrounded by genuine, party going weekenders (usually with   half a dozen kids)?  Been there, done that, want to move on.
We park regularly on Scarborough front: we leave no rubbish, no urine up against the wall, we pay our parking fees and we spend in the resort for 
the duration of our stay.
We pay our road tax and insurance all year round and bear all the usual vehicle expenditure. I personally find it immoral that we are 
being persecuted for taking trade away from sites!  If they were more reasonable for motorhomers, we might consider it.
Also, if we weren't keen motorhomers, we wouldn't travel and spend every weekend in any resort!
Be honest, everyone is struggling at present and some over priced 'retailers' are struggling to survive but don't be unreasonable.  I would say to
them - don't look a gift horse in the mouth' -  if we are not paying £30 per night, we have more in our pockets to spend on the high street!
Mrs wilthebeast


----------



## kimbowbill

wilthebeast said:


> I'm with you too Jez.
> Sites offer all the facilities that caravaners want, that's why they have a caravan and use these sites: as you said, motorhomers don't need all of these facilities, we all chose to spend thousands of pounds on a motorhome in order to have freedom and be self sufficient!  Why would we want to pay in the region of £30 to park on a piece of grass, miles from the main resort and surrounded by genuine, party going weekenders (usually with   half a dozen kids)?  Been there, done that, want to move on.
> We park regularly on Scarborough front: we leave no rubbish, no urine up against the wall, we pay our parking fees and we spend in the resort for
> the duration of our stay.
> We pay our road tax and insurance all year round and bear all the usual vehicle expenditure. I personally find it immoral that we are
> being persecuted for taking trade away from sites!  If they were more reasonable for motorhomers, we might consider it.
> Also, if we weren't keen motorhomers, we wouldn't travel and spend every weekend in any resort!
> Be honest, everyone is struggling at present and some over priced 'retailers' are struggling to survive but don't be unreasonable.  I would say to
> them - don't look a gift horse in the mouth' -  if we are not paying £30 per night, we have more in our pockets to spend on the high street!
> Mrs wilthebeast


 
Hi Mrs Wilthebeast

Would you send your comments to Jane wilson, her email can be found on my post, if you have been following the thread you will see that we need as much support as poss and the more people email the bigger headache they will have, i was brushed off by Cllr Watson on to stuart clarke, he then brushed me off to Jane wilson, they really dont want to address the situation so please, send you email to her

thanks
Jen


----------



## kimbowbill

*Email your gripes*

I know it will fall on deaf ears but i think we shoiuld at least try, Jane responded to me it will be interesting to see how she will respond to others, if she does, 



Jane.Wilson@scarborough.gov.uk

Jen


----------



## duchess

*Newbie and learning fast*

i have just uploaded my POI's and am ready to get started. I bought my beautiful sprinter 311 just a few weeks ago and thought nothing of using a campsite. It was expensive but the private beach was very cool and all dog friendly. The reason i am here is because i have to take all of my longer breaks during school holidays, and have soon found that it almost impossible to get a space on a campsite especially with an electric hook up. So, i panicked and thought what a waste of my savings, until a friend of a friend said just wild camp! My research has taken many hours! I am shocked really that there are not more places, just to park up and pay a few pounds, the camp sites would not suffer and the council's would make some money out of the land that they already own! I hope that wild camping goes on for a long time to come and that i enjoy it.
I think the issues are similar to dog friendly beaches, some people pick up the poo and some people don't.
Some people stop over and use facilities with repect and some don't.
The problem- we all suffer and there is nothing we can do.
hmmm sounds negative for a newbie 
I hope that everything gets better in Scarborough.


----------



## maureenandtom

For all of us taking an interest in this - so that's all of us - you might like to read a remarkable Australian document.  It's called

 The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained
Vehicle (MSV) Niche Market
by
The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia

and if I've done this right then this link should get you a copy and might give lots of ideas for use when approaching local authorities.


Austalian Paper.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


----------



## jezport

maureenandtom said:


> For all of us taking an interest in this - so that's all of us - you might like to read a remarkable Australian document.  It's called
> 
> The Sustainable Development of the Motorhome and Self Contained
> Vehicle (MSV) Niche Market
> by
> The Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia
> 
> and if I've done this right then this link should get you a copy and might give lots of ideas for use when approaching local authorities.
> 
> 
> Austalian Paper.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


 

Interesting, I will send a link of this to Jane Wilson once I get my reply where we are told to just use sites


----------



## Deleted member 3802

the same council as just spent £100grand on permanent temporary site for p!keys to use when the seamer horse fair is on:scared::lol-053::lol-053:

p.s.yes i mean p!keys not our gypsies or travellers but the travelling scum who move about under their banner


----------



## jezport

Old_Arthur said:


> the same council as just spent £100grand on permanent temporary site for p!keys to use when the seamer horse fair is on:scared::lol-053::lol-053:
> 
> p.s.yes i mean p!keys not our gypsies or travellers but the travelling scum who move about under their banner


Well then a few grand on an elsan and water point would be small change for them


----------



## yorkslass

hi just wanted to pick up on the cost of campsites and the attitude of the owners. this week on our local tv there was a report saying how much tourism is up in yorkshire compared to the rest of the country. in the same report a woman who managed holiday cottages said her members were reporting a downturn. a friend was looking to rent a cottage in whitby for 3 or 4 nights in january,they wanted over six hundred pounds, no wonder they arnt renting them. if all of these people made their services more affordable then folk might be prepared to use them more.


----------



## kimbowbill

yorkslass said:


> hi just wanted to pick up on the cost of campsites and the attitude of the owners. this week on our local tv there was a report saying how much tourism is up in yorkshire compared to the rest of the country. in the same report a woman who managed holiday cottages said her members were reporting a downturn. a friend was looking to rent a cottage in whitby for 3 or 4 nights in january,they wanted over six hundred pounds, no wonder they arnt renting them. if all of these people made their services more affordable then folk might be prepared to use them more.


 
This is true Yorklass, my sister has rented a house just outside filey next week for the family, last week it was £800 pw, this week its £1700, what a jump,school holiday rip off.

Jen xx


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> Hi Just thought i would pass on the response from jane wilson, Parking manager SBC,
> 
> Dear Miss Morris
> I refer to your email to Stuart Clark, which has been forwarded to me for a response.
> The Councils current policy on Motor home parking in its off street car parks is that no person should use any part of a parking place for sleeping, camping or cooking.
> The policy is decided on by elected members. Scarborough Borough Council have encountered problems with motor homes parking and leaving behind rubbish and on occasions even emptying chemical toilets. The Council have had to spend large amounts of money with the associated clean up.
> The Council also receive a number of complaints from traders, as alluded to in your email to Cllr Watson. It is unfortunate that a small majority of motorhome owners tarnish the reputation of others, however due to the problems encountered this policy remains in place. Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area which cater specifically for motor homes, the council’s car parks do not have any basic facilities including running water. You may wish to browse the site below for low cost alternative campsites other than the one you refer to.Camping and Caravan Sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey Whilst I understand that you would have preferred a more positive response, I trust this clarifies the situation.
> 
> Yours Sincerely
> 
> Jane Wilson
> Deputy Parking Manager
> Scarborough Borough Council
> Tel (01723) 383582
> Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey



I've emailed Scarborough Borough Council and I've sent them a copy of a booklet I prepared for another council a couple of years ago.  I didn't update it or amend it. This should let you look at it. Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download    I bypassed Jane Wilson to try to reach the tourist industry decision makers.

I bypassed Jane for two reasons.  The first is that Jane advertises herself as a Parking Manager.   Her job and her thoughts are to control parking.  My limited experience of trying persuasion with local authorities is that tourist people are enthusiastic about expanding their industry but they always come second to the parking people.   If  anybody can see a way of persuading Jane to put some effort into changing parking rules then I'd be keen to join in an attempt.

Second.  She's a jobsworth.   She says twice about the rules being the responsibility of members – by which I think she means councillors.  She says, _“The policy is decided on by elected members.”_   She also says, _“Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area . . .” _  She only missed out, “It's more than my job's worth to . . .”   My feeling is that trying to persuade Jane is a lost cause.

There's a third, minor, reason.  I instinctively feel that underlings will put more effort into a question if they think their superiors have an interest in it.


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> Second.  She's a jobsworth.   She says twice about the rules being the responsibility of members – by which I think she means councillors.  She says, _“The policy is decided on by elected members.”_   She also says, _“Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area . . .” _  She only missed out, “It's more than my job's worth to . . .”   My feeling is that trying to persuade Jane is a lost cause.


 
I don't know who this Jane is but for someone in her lowly position in the council hierarchy there is absolutely nothing wrong with this reply. All policy matters are the responsibility of elected members, as she says. It is the duty of officers to carry out those policy decisions. That is their job description. To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair. I agree with you that it is best to try to get to a senior officer because it is part of their job to advise members when they are making their decisions, so if you can get them on your side they are likely to write their next advice to members in a more favourable light. If, on the other hand, those senior officers give you a "nothing I can do about it, mate" reply then by all means call them jobsworths - they would then deserve it; Jane does not.


----------



## jezport

The ideal way to deal with this would be to get a petition together.

It may mean a few of us spending a few days in Scarborough but I would be up for it.

We are heading over there later this afternoon, I will ask shop keepers what they think about the situation.


----------



## Pollik

> Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area which cater specifically for motor homes,



This sounds a bit like the original councillor who suggested that we should contact the parking people.  An example of skewed thinking.  Most wilders are more likely to take their spending money to another town rather than be ripped by campsites charging for services we neither want nor need.

There is a real culture problem to be overcome in the UK which already loses out in the tourist stakes.  It seems that, in the UK tourist industry, the business is about selling what they have rather than selling what people want.  My feeling would be to ignore Scarborough and to work more with those places that are capable of thinking flexibly and to help them get the best out of their aires by, for example, ensuring they are listed in Vicarious.  I am still interested in trying to help get things moving, but I can't really do it while I am on the road (not due back until October) unless I can find decent solutions to my power issues and to my internet connectivitiy.

I still think the way forward is to sell the idea on the basis of local trade and that the basis that so many countries in Europe are decades ahead of Britain...maybe we can talk to authorities in other countries to find out their rationale and to put that to UK authorities.  Perhaps we could survey motorhomers (not just members here) and find out where they use their MHs most and why.  Explore ways of the various MH groups working together on this as a single issue.

But I am really not sure it will work in the UK - the mindset is different.  We don't have aires, we seem to have fewer roadside picnic areas and none at all on motorways, we build a channel tunnel that you can't drive through.  We don't really seem to like our holiday makers or motorists.  I found that the Netherlands seems to be fairly anti-wilding, and maybe Belgium, but so far everywhere else has positively welcomed us (France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway in my personal experience)  I am not sure the battle to change the culture of small mindedness in the UK is necessarily worth effort...or perhaps it is just that I may not have the energy for it.  I have spent the last 14 years on a campaign trail and I am all campaigned out.



Polly


----------



## maureenandtom

John is almost entirely right.   I have said so all along.  We really and truly do not want our lowly employees making decisions.    They administer our rules on our behalf.   We'll tell them, not have them tell us.  To have this agreement is music to my ears.

Councils in general earn my contempt.  Look at this one and the way they wriggle.

First an elected member gets a little free publicity by making a statement to the press.

Second a member of the public (from here) challenges him.

Third, the elected member refers the member of the public to a paid official.

Fourth, the paid official says there are rules and these rules are made by elected members.

Fifth – well there isn't a fifth.  The circle is now closed.   Elected member passes buck to  official who passes buck to elected member.

I have seen councils acting like this before.   Keep things going until we all lose the will to live.  It is a successful policy.  I have already forgotten who Stuart Clark and Councillor Watson fit into the picture.

As for being a jobsworth.  I stand by that.  John repeats only the justification that all jobsworths give.  _“To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair”._ 

Polly.  Off topic.   Nowhere else to ask.   You a sim pilot?


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> John is almost entirely right.   I have said so all along.  We really and truly do not want our lowly employees making decisions.    They administer our rules on our behalf.   We'll tell them, not have them tell us.  To have this agreement is music to my ears.
> 
> Councils in general earn my contempt.  Look at this one and the way they wriggle.
> 
> First an elected member gets a little free publicity by making a statement to the press.
> 
> Second a member of the public (from here) challenges him.
> 
> Third, the elected member refers the member of the public to a paid official.
> 
> Fourth, the paid official says there are rules and these rules are made by elected members.
> 
> Fifth – well there isn't a fifth.  The circle is now closed.   Elected member passes buck to  official who passes buck to elected member.
> 
> I have seen councils acting like this before.   Keep things going until we all lose the will to live.  It is a successful policy.  I have already forgotten who Stuart Clark and Councillor Watson fit into the picture.
> 
> As for being a jobsworth.  I stand by that.  John repeats only the justification that all jobsworths give.  _“To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair”._
> 
> Polly.  Off topic.   Nowhere else to ask.   You a sim pilot?


 
You may think it good sport to shoot the lowly messenger rather than addressing the real problem but I doubt that many would agree with you. Give the people at the top all the hell you want but your attitude to those who have no freedom to change the rules is nothing short of bullying.

And, yes, there is a "fifth" - it is to take the matter up with either senior officers who can influence council decisions or the leadership of the council who make those decisions. But if you do it in an agressive way you will probably get nowhere. As has been said several times on this forum (by me and many others) the way to get things changed is to act responsibly and reasonably - it may not always work but the alternative is guaranteed not to.


----------



## maureenandtom

Then you will be truly thankful, as am I , that I have been blessed with a placid nature.



Already taken the fifth.  You should have noticed that.  I'm hurt.


----------



## Pollik

The council worker is paid to be the face of the council and to act as a buffer between the public and anyone who can make decisions.  As with any other job, she has a choice about it.  Having said that, I personally wouldn't give her a hard time unless, in her own capacity, she placed barriers in the way of finding a resolution to the problem.

@maureenandtom Yes, I am, but although I joined Avsim (is that where you saw me?), I don't play online.  I might one day though.  I take it you are a sim pilot too?



Polly


----------



## jezport

We have spent the weekend on Marine drive.

Some clever person has put some large boulders at the back of some of the spaces where a longer  van can reverse back. I think that it is a stupid thing to do as there are lots of parallel spaces that cant be blocked. These are next to the cafe to the south of the skate park. I wonder whether the correct consents were carried out before these were put there,

Friday night there were only about 7 vans the on the front, we has a drive at around 10.00 AM and even visited the sea life centre where there were no vans.
Saturday there were 4 vans in the water treatment pull in and about 12 others spread about. 

We spoke to Steve, a local trader who was running the crazy golf. He told me that trade was hard enough without frightening motorhomes away and said that he had not read anything in the local papers about the issue.

We had a good weekend, bought ice creams both days, played crazy golf, had fish and chips and spent money on fishing nets and other food, so I feel we were good for Scarborough.

Here is this mornings sunrise form our van.


----------



## maureenandtom

No, I wouldn't give her a hard time either.   John is just being provocative.   I was doing no more than making an explanation of why I decided to bypass her when making my own representations to Scarborough council though I wouldn't dissuade others from continuing their correspondence with her if they feel that is the best route.  For myself I see no point in talking to Jane when she has made it very clear that decisions aren't hers.   

If anybody would like to read my little booklet to Scarborough, and other councils, I will be pleased to hear of any amendments anyone might recommend.   There is a time for assertiveness and a time for persuasion.   Persuasion with the tourist people and, maybe when the time is right, assertiveness with parking people.   Persuasion always first.

Polly.  Ex R/L but now retired.  Flightgear sim is the nearest I get these days;  you might google FGUK and have a look.   The multiplayer is fun and I'm trying making videos now - that's fun too.   We've had others here flying with virtual airlines.  Not for me but fun for some.

Tom


----------



## John H

Pollik said:


> The council worker is paid to be the face of the council and to act as a buffer between the public and anyone who can make decisions.  As with any other job, she has a choice about it.  Having said that, I personally wouldn't give her a hard time unless, in her own capacity, she placed barriers in the way of finding a resolution to the problem.
> 
> Polly



Yes she has a choice - these days it is probably a choice between a job and no job! But I agree with you that if she had put a positive barrier in the way then she would have deserved criticism. I'm sorry but I get annoyed whenever I see bullying and to call someone a "jobsworth" (especially in the aggressive way that Tom did in his post) for this kind of thing counts as bullying in my book. It is also a waste of effort when you could be tackling the right people instead.


----------



## jezport

maureenandtom said:


> If anybody would like to read my little booklet to Scarborough, and other councils, I will be pleased to hear of any amendments anyone might recommend.   There is a time for assertiveness and a time for persuasion.   Persuasion with the tourist people and, maybe when the time is right, assertiveness with parking people.   Persuasion always first.
> 
> 
> Tom



Yes I would like to see your booklet


----------



## maureenandtom

Deleted - duplicate post below


----------



## maureenandtom

jezport said:


> Yes I would like to see your booklet



Hi Jez,

Thanks.   It came about a few years ago when I tried to think how to approach councils and tourist authorities.   Reading it now it seems a little naive but I updated it a couple of years ago for a Lake District council and I haven't updated it since.

Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download

The idea behind it is that we think of ourselves as a product and we have to sell ourselves.   If I did have a product to sell I'd produce a glossy brochure and tell my potential customers how much they and I would both profit.   I guess, if I was to do the same again, I'd not stress so much how other countries were doing but think of more advantages for the customer here and now.  Say, how much control they would now have over us if they could herd us into one place, I'd look up *****'s recent article in which he told us how much his last holiday in Europe had cost him and multiply it by Phil's poll of how many nights we spend in the van and . . . oh, I don't know but I still think that approach was a good approach.

Almost always, initially, it had a good reception from those interested in tourism but it always fell on deaf ears when it came to those interested in parking and the parking people always won - or I heard no more - or I was promised that I would hear and then didn't.

It does become disheartening.

Thoughts please?

Oh, I haven't always sent it as a PDF document.  Sometimes I've printed it and self-bound it.  Made a good amateur job of it too.

*Edit:   That link offers you the choice of viewing the document or downloading it.  If you select View then you only get half;   if you want to read it all then you have to download.*


----------



## Pollik

Thanks Tom...I will take a look at FGUK when I get a solid connection.

At the time of posting this, I haven't read your PDF in full, but it looks nicely set out and I agree that appealing to the economics is the way to try to move forwards.  There are many ways to approach the problem - councils making their area attractive to tourists (as in France, Germany...), existing campsites making facilities available at much reduced rate for MHs who don't want to camp (as in Belgium, Sweden....) , garages and supermarkets offering free services (as in France, Norway, Finland etc)......there must be other approaches too.  Making sure that MH services are on the various lists that exist (Vicarious is the most obvious, but there are others)....if you don't let people know you have services, you won't attract people to them.

I know I keep saying this, but what I think is needed is a dedicated group (preferably supported by the hobby and support MH groups) run by someone with the energy, enthusiasm, resources, time, charisma to press the case.  And to keep pressing the case.  If Scarborough is run by numpties, start with Canterbury (why is their aire not all that widely known about?).  Talk to other councils who might listen more sympathetically.  

Find innovative ways round legal problems (eg signage).  Speak to Tescos, Waitrose, Shell, BP.  Speak to campsite organisations and campsites.  Speak to National Trust, Forestry Commission.  

The bottom line for me is that it works with varying degrees of success in other countries and there is no reason it shouldn't work in the UK - we just need to sow the seeds in the right places.

My own skills are probably with words, lateral thinking, ideas and thinking problems through.  Like many of us, I have taken up causes against large organisations that run largely on autopilot (ie with as little thought as possible) - the trick is to get through to someone who is interested, cares and can make decisions or influence them.  I don't make a good leader and I don't always have the energy (or I am away, myself) to do stuff.  I am not good on administration, either.

Determination and perseverance are what is needed, as much as anything else.

Getting such a group established would, in itself, be an achievement.  Many groups start up.  Most fall by the wayside, but some keep going and start to have an effect.





Polly


----------



## jezport

We spent last weekend on the North bay without any problems. There were a number of other vans dotted along the bay.


----------



## Bernard Jones

I noticed last week that signs restricting vehicles to 1.5 tons and no overnight sleeping have been removed from Scarborough & district council car parks.  (They were on the old pay and display machines, but are not on the new ones.)

I wondered whether after the number of phone calls to Scarborough police to report a 'suspicious' van (mine) parked in the street, the council had finally realised it would be better to let us use the car parks?


----------



## grinner555

Bernard Jones said:


> I noticed last week that signs restricting vehicles to 1.5 tons and no overnight sleeping have been removed from Scarborough & district council car parks.  (They were on the old pay and display machines, but are not on the new ones.)
> 
> I wondered whether after the number of phone calls to Scarborough police to report a 'suspicious' van (mine) parked in the street, the council had finally realised it would be better to let us use the car parks?


 
we stopped in scarboro last weekend in the sea life center car park, £5 for 24 hours pay by card or cash
sea view and pub couple of yards away
no probs at all:banana:


----------



## ellieloy

but surely these campers are tourists who use the local shops and facilities just likeany one else - and Iguess most day trippers leave by early evening ????? what is their problem?

If a councillor has a financial interest he should be obliged to declare it and not get involved in influencing any debate!


----------



## ellieloy

Thinking a bit more - we have a holiday cottage on the Moray Firth in Scotland (we mostly use our MH on trips to and from it - taking in the scenic routes) Local people could accuse us of having a local property without living there, but we let the cottage to visitors and feed into the local tourism industry and economy. All our repairs and renovations have been undertaken by local craftsmen and we employ a gardner, housekeeper, window cleaner too.

These days ts a case often of the green eyed monster - greed. Folk just worry you might have a bigger slice of the cake than you. Maybe they should take their head out of the dark insular place and work to bake a bigger cake - there is enough to go around for everyone. 

Sorry - I will get off my soap box now


----------



## John H

ellieloy said:


> If a councillor has a financial interest he should be obliged to declare it and not get involved in influencing any debate!


 
Under the Local Government Act 2000, they are obliged to do so but the problem is that the maximum penalties are rarely meted out (possibly because it is the Standards Committee of the Council who makes the judgement!). Under the proposed Localism Bill, it is likely that the offence will be turned into a Criminal (rather than Civil) one and the judgement will be removed from the Councils themselves. Perhaps then we will see more large fines and five-year disqualifications - perhaps?


----------



## donkey too

Also Under the Local Government Act 2000, You and any member of the public can go into the council office without prior notice and see the councillors declaration of intrests book. S those interested go and have a look.


----------



## jezport

I didn't get a reply from my email, I am not surprised as I left them no easy answers!

I actually think that the article may have been written on a day when news stories were scarce so one letter to the paper was embellished somewhat until it made a story.

So the best thing is to just go about our wild camping and report back any developments  on this thread.


----------



## Bernard Jones

grinner555 said:


> we stopped in scarboro last weekend in the sea life center car park, £5 for 24 hours pay by card or cash
> sea view and pub couple of yards away
> no probs at all:banana:



Thanks, not seen that one.  I was in Whitby and usually overnight on the street but last week there was not a space to be found.  So I went on the car park above Whitby Spa.  Thats when I first noticed the '1.5 ton limit' and 'no overnight sleeping' was not on the new type pay@display machines with the solar panel on top (it was still on the old type pay and display machine without the solar panel which was covered over with a black bag awaiting removal)  I stayed there overnight - free until 9am, no bother at all.
So when I got to Scarborough I looked at the new pay & display machines there and found them the same, no restrictions.


----------



## runnach

All very interesting? unless a turn of events occurs it looks like I will be back in the UK November and will be spending a lot of time in Filey where my parents live.

Ok it was March 2010, but I noticed on the car parks there the signs prohibiting overnight sleeping and no cooking had the 50 quid fine thing covered over with gaffer tape

I wondered if it was a disgruntled camper but upon reflection it seems could have been the council.

Looks like a fine view from the country park then in November :dance:

Channa


----------



## fairytooth

*Please write to the Council*

I have put my complaint in writing to Scarborough BC and here is their reply (through the parking manager) together with my further response is below for your information.  *You can add your views by email too and when they have had enough of us writing and parking, they might just do something constructive .......... !!!*


I refer to your comment in relation to your perception that Scarborough Borough Council are hostile towards disabled and motorhomes drivers.

I can assure you that this is not the case.

Scarborough Borough Council have decided that all classes of road users have to pay parking charges on the off street Pay and Display car parks in the Borough.  This is not unique to Scarborough, with many Councils across the country opting to charge blue badge holders in their car parks.

However there are over 6000 alternative parking spaces available for disabled drivers in Scarborough, with free unlimited parking available in on street pay and display areas and time limited disc bays.   I have enclosed a copy of The Blue Badge Scheme leaflet, which I hope will assist you when making further choices for parking arrangements.

With relation to motorhomes uunfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street.  Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities, however general parking is permitted in all car parks with larger vehicles encouraged to use coach parking spaces.

You may park your vehicle provided that you do not sleep in the vehicle, however your vehicle should be removed to an appropriate camp site should you wish to camp.  Please click on the link below to view sites in the area.

Camping and caravan sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey 

Should you require any assistance on parking related matters in relation to the Borough of Scarborough, please do not hesitate to contact the parking services department on (01723) 232323 who will be happy to assist you.

Yours Sincerely


Jane Wilson
Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey


*MY REPLY*

Dear Ms Wilson

Thank you for your reply.  Would you please direct me to the legislation which does not permit overnight sleeping?

From the views conveyed in your reply I feel you must be unaware of the growing concern among those who legitimately and routinely take their holidays in motorhomes.  We feel that your council is, as is often our experience, acting ultra vires in coming to decisions to exclude certain portions of society and we are taking the matter further through European legislation.  If you are as sure as you seem that the no overnight ‘sleeping’ rule has the force of law, I would be most grateful to examine its legitimacy.

Please would you note for the benefit of those who decided to exclude overnight motorhomes, based on lack of running water and drainage facilities, have erred in their judgement because motorhomes do not routinely require such facilities and there are largely self-sufficient for often several days at a time.  I will happily direct you towards the decided legal cases where council decisions based on incorrect assumptions are indeed ultra vires and there illegal.  You would be well advised to ensure that the council legal advisers are reminded of ‘Wednesbury Unreasonableness’ if they know of the famous case.

I hope therefore that you can understand our perception that your council’s decision to effectively exclude motorhome users in a matter contrary to other local authorities (and indeed most of Europe) is totally discriminatory (directly and indirectly) towards us.

Also, as a disabled badge holder I will park my vehicle free of charge for 3 hours at a time on your roads with double yellow lines, where I believe it is still free to do so.  This may not be where it is most convenient to the council.

I am circulating your response via the web to other members of my motorhomers club and I anticipate that you may receive further correspondence.


----------



## jezport

I posted my letter earlier in this thread and as I have said I got no reply. I covered all her expected responses so I think she has had to go and get further advice :lol-053:


----------



## kimbowbill

fairytooth said:


> I have put my complaint in writing to Scarborough BC and here is their reply (through the parking manager) together with my further response is below for your information.  *You can add your views by email too and when they have had enough of us writing and parking, they might just do something constructive .......... !!!*
> 
> 
> I refer to your comment in relation to your perception that Scarborough Borough Council are hostile towards disabled and motorhomes drivers.
> 
> I can assure you that this is not the case.
> 
> Scarborough Borough Council have decided that all classes of road users have to pay parking charges on the off street Pay and Display car parks in the Borough.  This is not unique to Scarborough, with many Councils across the country opting to charge blue badge holders in their car parks.
> 
> However there are over 6000 alternative parking spaces available for disabled drivers in Scarborough, with free unlimited parking available in on street pay and display areas and time limited disc bays.   I have enclosed a copy of The Blue Badge Scheme leaflet, which I hope will assist you when making further choices for parking arrangements.
> 
> With relation to motorhomes uunfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street.  Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities, however general parking is permitted in all car parks with larger vehicles encouraged to use coach parking spaces.
> 
> You may park your vehicle provided that you do not sleep in the vehicle, however your vehicle should be removed to an appropriate camp site should you wish to camp.  Please click on the link below to view sites in the area.
> 
> Camping and caravan sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey
> 
> Should you require any assistance on parking related matters in relation to the Borough of Scarborough, please do not hesitate to contact the parking services department on (01723) 232323 who will be happy to assist you.
> 
> Yours Sincerely
> 
> 
> Jane Wilson
> Deputy Parking Manager
> Scarborough Borough Council
> Tel (01723) 383582
> Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey
> 
> 
> *MY REPLY*
> 
> Dear Ms Wilson
> 
> Thank you for your reply.  Would you please direct me to the legislation which does not permit overnight sleeping?
> 
> From the views conveyed in your reply I feel you must be unaware of the growing concern among those who legitimately and routinely take their holidays in motorhomes.  We feel that your council is, as is often our experience, acting ultra vires in coming to decisions to exclude certain portions of society and we are taking the matter further through European legislation.  If you are as sure as you seem that the no overnight ‘sleeping’ rule has the force of law, I would be most grateful to examine its legitimacy.
> 
> Please would you note for the benefit of those who decided to exclude overnight motorhomes, based on lack of running water and drainage facilities, have erred in their judgement because motorhomes do not routinely require such facilities and there are largely self-sufficient for often several days at a time.  I will happily direct you towards the decided legal cases where council decisions based on incorrect assumptions are indeed ultra vires and there illegal.  You would be well advised to ensure that the council legal advisers are reminded of ‘Wednesbury Unreasonableness’ if they know of the famous case.
> 
> I hope therefore that you can understand our perception that your council’s decision to effectively exclude motorhome users in a matter contrary to other local authorities (and indeed most of Europe) is totally discriminatory (directly and indirectly) towards us.
> 
> Also, as a disabled badge holder I will park my vehicle free of charge for 3 hours at a time on your roads with double yellow lines, where I believe it is still free to do so.  This may not be where it is most convenient to the council.
> 
> I am circulating your response via the web to other members of my motorhomers club and I anticipate that you may receive further correspondence.


 
Nice one fairythooth, that will have her in a pickle, 

Jen


----------



## kimbowbill

channa said:


> All very interesting? unless a turn of events occurs it looks like I will be back in the UK November and will be spending a lot of time in Filey where my parents live.
> 
> Ok it was March 2010, but I noticed on the car parks there the signs prohibiting overnight sleeping and no cooking had the 50 quid fine thing covered over with gaffer tape
> 
> I wondered if it was a disgruntled camper but upon reflection it seems could have been the council.
> 
> Looks like a fine view from the country park then in November :dance:
> 
> Channa


 
Hi channa

Nice to see you are still with us, thought you had fell off the face of the earth :banana:,  I was in filey last week and your right about the sign, i stayed in the country park with no problems, there was also a couple of other vans parked up, a council van came round and checked the grounds then two police vans cruised round at differnt times, nothing was said.  I usually go up in November, might see thee for a coffee or two n:cool1:

Jen


----------



## runnach

Hi Jen 

I have one of them cafetiere thingies so no probs with a coffee if all else fails I am sure my mum will make us a nescafe.

On  a more serious note and to keep things OT I find the councils explanation interesting.

The bit the council has made the decision to ban motorhomes on the basis we allegedly have no running water or waste dispôsal facilities.

If this is their stated and only concern and we can prove it is unfounded, can we in return expect a complete reversal on their currently adopted policy ?

If we can get a yes then 

So how about this as a collective idea, contact the council and a few of us close to Scarborough set them a challenge ?

We visit a car park of their choice for a weekend and whilst under their microscope prove the sustainability and minimal impact of motorhomes ? Environmentally and illustrate not a social nuisance.

In the meantime assimilate a dossier that clearlyand irrevocably illustrates the benefits of the motorhome community to the local economy. 

Channa


----------



## donkey too

Great idea and why keep it just for scarb? A handy little booklet would be handy to give to questioning people.


----------



## kimbowbill

channa said:


> Hi Jen
> 
> I have one of them cafetiere thingies so no probs with a coffee if all else fails I am sure my mum will make us a nescafe.
> 
> On  a more serious note and to keep things OT I find the councils explanation interesting.
> 
> The bit the council has made the decision to ban motorhomes on the basis we allegedly have no running water or waste dispôsal facilities.
> 
> If this is their stated and only concern and we can prove it is unfounded, can we in return expect a complete reversal on their currently adopted policy ?
> 
> If we can get a yes then
> 
> So how about this as a collective idea, contact the council and a few of us close to Scarborough set them a challenge ?
> 
> We visit a car park of their choice for a weekend and whilst under their microscope prove the sustainability and minimal impact of motorhomes ? Environmentally and illustrate not a social nuisance.
> 
> In the meantime assimilate a dossier that clearlyand irrevocably illustrates the benefits of the motorhome community to the local economy.
> 
> Channa


 
I'm up for that, anybody else fancies the challenge?


----------



## refurbisher

Count us in, one of our favourite local overnights, shame it has to come to this. Maybe I should get a 4x4, a chrome caravan, a few milk churns and a good mucky tan, then not even kryptonite could touch me! :ninja:


----------



## jezport

Has anyone had a letter from the council stuck on their windscreen threatening them off wild camping in the area? I had one in Bridlington about 3 years ago.

I really think that unless anyone is threatened by the council we should just keep on doing as we do and wildcamp. By attracting council and press attention we may be shooting our selves in the foot and make them take action.


----------



## cooljules

i would be up for this if i have the diesel at the time.  for a newbie like me, its things like this that means i can spend time in the fresh air with the dogs as i cant afford campsites etc.  mind you one of my dogs is bloomin ugly so better hide him away lol


----------



## Firefox

Well I think they may be able to make a bye-law which says "No overnight sleeping" but in effect, such a law is unenforceable. 

With the curtains drawn, you could be sitting at the table in your van using the laptop or reading each night, as I have been known to do on numerous occasions. 

I know my sleep patterns are different to the average persons, but that's what could happen. They have no proof that you were sitting in a parked vehicle or sleeping in a parked vehicle. And there can be no requirement to "answer the door" at that time of night for them to gather any evidence either way.

So long as the only thing in contact with the surface is the tires, the vehicle is parked, not camped. Of course that excludes levelling ramps, door steps, tables, chairs and BBQ's but that's easily enough done.


----------



## refurbisher

Don't hide him away cooljules, get a pic up of him, we need a mascot for our campain


----------



## cooljules

refurbisher said:


> Don't hide him away cooljules, get a pic up of him, we need a mascot for our campain


 
Hes bloomin ugly, this is him a couple of years ago when me and him was camping at Ruegen, the german island. for some reason all the girls fall for him...no idea why!!


----------



## refurbisher

Sehr schone, proper dog, a best pal kind of look about him.


----------



## kimbowbill

well, i have a tent, and when i park in scarborough, i dont sleep in the van, the dogs do cos they too big for the tent, i take the tent on the cliffe tops and sleep there, can they prove otherwise? nope, theres no signs on the cliffe saying no camping is thi? sodem


----------



## cooljules

refurbisher said:


> Sehr schone, proper dog, a best pal kind of look about him.


 lieder nicht eine schoene hund    but hes my best pal, laid next to me on the bed now...smart but old, bit blind n deaf with a bit of dog alzhiemers now, so not good next to roads etc.  but still happy...and lets me know it by giving me a big smily face.   ugly but happy!


----------



## cooljules

kimbowbill said:


> well, i have a tent, and when i park in scarborough, i dont sleep in the van, the dogs do cos they too big for the tent, i take the tent on the cliffe tops and sleep there, can they prove otherwise? nope, theres no signs on the cliffe saying no camping is thi? sodem


 
i have a blue badge, to due artritis etc in my back (i broke it 16 years ago)  so after a drive im a little sore and aching.  hence even in my car, i keep emergency pack, and with tea/little cooking stove etc. so i can take my meds, get some rest for a few hours no matter where i am.   the camper will be great for me, as i cant use a tent, just too painful to put up and struggle, and laid on the ground damp gets into my back.    i would love them to say move your camper and we dont care you need to rest and take your meds.......    i dont want special treatment, just treat fair like anyone else.


----------



## kimbowbill

cooljules said:


> i have a blue badge, to due artritis etc in my back (i broke it 16 years ago)  so after a drive im a little sore and aching.  hence even in my car, i keep emergency pack, and with tea/little cooking stove etc. so i can take my meds, get some rest for a few hours no matter where i am.   the camper will be great for me, as i cant use a tent, just too painful to put up and struggle, and laid on the ground damp gets into my back.    i would love them to say move your camper and we dont care you need to rest and take your meds.......    i dont want special treatment, just treat fair like anyone else.


 
CJ, they dont know your not sleeping in the tent do they? i'm just saying if anyone comes to the door, you dont answer and if you get a ticket, you could dispute by saying you was in your tent, simples


----------



## cooljules

kimbowbill said:


> CJ, they dont know your not sleeping in the tent do they? i'm just saying if anyone comes to the door, you dont answer and if you get a ticket, you could dispute by saying you was in your tent, simples


 
while that is true, im a pretty honest person, and a day out, with the dogs would tire me out and give me some aches, so as normal i take some meds and nod off for a few hours overnight, wake up, make a brew and set back off when i feel ready, thats just in the car i do now.  i wont drive back there and then if i dont feel upto it.


----------



## maureenandtom

There have been one or two threads on this subject and I'm not sure in which one I should post now.  I don't suppose it matters - we're all well aware of the history here.

I did write to the Whitby Gazette and they published the two pictures I sent them.  Here:Something to learn about parking - Letters - Whitby Gazette

You'll remember and be able to find the other letters in the same newspaper, I'm sure.

My attempts to bypass the parking manager and put my proposals to a tourist official were unsuccessful and I had to deal with her.  I didn't bully her.  I haven't heard from her for nearly two months but prior to that she told me that there was to be a traffic committee meeting early October and she would pass my proposals to committee members.  She would also tell me of decisions taken at the meeting.  My response was to ask for details of when the meeting would be held, who would be attending and how I could check their business interests.

She dud not respond and until today I haven't pressed her to answer.  Today I have asked more firmly for a response.


----------



## jezport

I stick by what I said earlier. By pushing these people we may cause more problems. Just get on with wildcamping  and respect the area.

Like cooljules I have a blue badge so I do not get hassled where ever I park so this is not an issue for me. But for people without blue badges I suggest you think carefully before giving a jobsworth a case to keep them in work!


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> .........she told me that there was to be a traffic committee meeting early October and she would pass my proposals to committee members.  She would also tell me of decisions taken at the meeting.  My response was to ask for details of when the meeting would be held, who would be attending and how I could check their business interests.
> 
> She dud not respond and until today I haven't pressed her to answer.  Today I have asked more firmly for a response.



You asked on another thread where should we draw the line - this is a good example. It is inexcusable that you were not given information that you were entitled to in time to use that information. Nice letter to the gazette, by the way - did you get any resonses?

As an aside, I think that positive campaigns to get councils to examine the good things about aires etc are the way to go; telling them they are wrong to put up banning notices, although it is in effect saying a similar thing, is not going to work - it's human nature.


----------



## sagart

maureenandtom said:


> There have been one or two threads on this subject and I'm not sure in which one I should post now.  I don't suppose it matters - we're all well aware of the history here.
> 
> I did write to the Whitby Gazette and they published the two pictures I sent them.  Here:Something to learn about parking - Letters - Whitby Gazette
> 
> You'll remember and be able to find the other letters in the same newspaper, I'm sure.
> 
> My attempts to bypass the parking manager and put my proposals to a tourist official were unsuccessful and I had to deal with her.  I didn't bully her.  I haven't heard from her for nearly two months but prior to that she told me that there was to be a traffic committee meeting early October and she would pass my proposals to committee members.  She would also tell me of decisions taken at the meeting.  My response was to ask for details of when the meeting would be held, who would be attending and how I could check their business interests.
> 
> She dud not respond and until today I haven't pressed her to answer.  Today I have asked more firmly for a response.



Register of Interests can be downloaded from Councillors Register of Interest Forms as submitted to Scarborough Borough Council


----------



## John H

sagart said:


> Register of Interests can be downloaded from Councillors Register of Interest Forms as submitted to Scarborough Borough Council



True but, to me, the really bad thing about the lack of response is that Tom would have been entitled to attend the meeting at which his issue was being discussed if he had been informed of the date. It might be that meeting dates are on the council website (they usually are) but if you are interested in a specific issue you need to know which of these meeting dates is the appropriate one (and meeting dates have a habit of changing after they are posted!). The lack of response to this basis request is inexcusable.


----------



## Viktor

> I stick by what I said earlier. By pushing these people we may cause more problems



I don't believe so....lots of time and trouble and cost to go through to put all the legal ducks in a row, (in these days of
cutbacks and budgets)......
I suspect they would rather keep quiet and work on the premise that less publicity works to their advantage.


----------



## maureenandtom

maureenandtom said:


> There have been one or two threads on this subject and I'm not sure in which one I should post now.  I don't suppose it matters - we're all well aware of the history here.
> 
> I did write to the Whitby Gazette and they published the two pictures I sent them.  Here:Something to learn about parking - Letters - Whitby Gazette
> 
> You'll remember and be able to find the other letters in the same newspaper, I'm sure.
> 
> My attempts to bypass the parking manager and put my proposals to a tourist official were unsuccessful and I had to deal with her.  I didn't bully her.  I haven't heard from her for nearly two months but prior to that she told me that there was to be a traffic committee meeting early October and she would pass my proposals to committee members.  She would also tell me of decisions taken at the meeting.  My response was to ask for details of when the meeting would be held, who would be attending and how I could check their business interests.
> 
> She dud not respond and until today I haven't pressed her to answer.  Today I have asked more firmly for a response.




Being a little more firm worked and I wish I had been as firm from the start.   Eventually, on 4th November, I heard that my proposals had not been discussed at the committee meeting in October.








I haven't yet been able to find out the exact date of the next meeting, but it will be in January, and the council has confirmed that my proposals will be on the agenda and also, today, the chairman of the meeting  also emailed me that they will be discussed.  I have been promised that I will receive Minutes of the Meeting.   So, here is our opportunity.

The councillors involved are:

Chairman		Cllr Tim Lawn	   	cllr.tim.lawn@scarboough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr Godfrey Allanson   	cllr.godfrey.allanson@scarborough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr John Armsby	   	cllr.john.armsby@scarborough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr Subash Sharma   	cllr.Subash.Sharma@scarborough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr Janet Jefferson   	cllr.Janet.Jefferson@scarborough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr Brian Watson	   	cllr.brian.watson@scarborough.gov.uk
Member		Cllr David Chance	   	cllr.david.chance@scarborough.gov.uk

Officers attending will be:

Stuart Clark,		Parking and Client Manager	stuart.clark@scarborough.gov.uk
Kerry Metcalfe,    	Corporate Finance Manager	kerry.metcalfe@scarborough.gov.uk    *
Brian Bennett,	        Head of Tourism and Culture	brian.bennett@scarborough.gov.uk
Jane Wilson,		Deputy Parking Manager	jane.wilson@scarborough.gov.uk

Kerry Metcalfe's email address is a guess – but it looks like a good guess!!  And I'm not sure that Kerry Metcalfe has a copy of my booklet.

The booklet which I believe is now in the possession of all those above is at  Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download  and you can download it from there.

Background stuff on the Councillors is here Scarborough Borough Council: Your Councillors

I had hoped a small team of officers would investigate the possibility of providing Aire type parking and services to advise the committee and perhaps we could have had small scale trial as proof of concept – and perhaps we still can.   The objections a council officer has put so far are below and I think these will be the arguments officers will use to oppose my proposals.








I intend to email all the above asking that they read my booklet and, in my email, I will put my arguments about the above and also show how council administrators, council tax payers, local businesses and motorhomers will benefit.

Motor home parking is going to be discussed.   It can't do any harm to put, individually, our views to all those attending the meeting.  This is our opportunity.  The more views we put to group members the better.   Any ideas, even those already put?

I also thought it might be a good idea to involve the local press.  Get voters in the area to put their views.


----------



## anfi1

The original topic was about local traders not being happy about motorhomes parking overnight for free,but now Scarborough council are considering charging for parking on Marine drive through the winter,but guess what the local traders are saying that taking the free parking away will kill them off!


----------



## Tbear

maureenandtom said:


> Being a little more firm worked and I wish I had been as firm from the start.   Eventually, on 4th November, I heard that my proposals had not been discussed at the committee meeting in October.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't yet been able to find out the exact date of the next meeting, but it will be in January, and the council has confirmed that my proposals will be on the agenda and also, today, the chairman of the meeting  also emailed me that they will be discussed.  I have been promised that I will receive Minutes of the Meeting.   So, here is our opportunity.
> 
> The councillors involved are:
> 
> Chairman		Cllr Tim Lawn	   	cllr.tim.lawn@scarboough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr Godfrey Allanson   	cllr.godfrey.allanson@scarborough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr John Armsby	   	cllr.john.armsby@scarborough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr Subash Sharma   	cllr.Subash.Sharma@scarborough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr Janet Jefferson   	cllr.Janet.Jefferson@scarborough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr Brian Watson	   	cllr.brian.watson@scarborough.gov.uk
> Member		Cllr David Chance	   	cllr.david.chance@scarborough.gov.uk
> 
> Officers attending will be:
> 
> Stuart Clark,		Parking and Client Manager	stuart.clark@scarborough.gov.uk
> Kerry Metcalfe,    	Corporate Finance Manager	kerry.metcalfe@scarborough.gov.uk    *
> Brian Bennett,	        Head of Tourism and Culture	brian.bennett@scarborough.gov.uk
> Jane Wilson,		Deputy Parking Manager	jane.wilson@scarborough.gov.uk
> 
> Kerry Metcalfe's email address is a guess – but it looks like a good guess!!  And I'm not sure that Kerry Metcalfe has a copy of my booklet.
> 
> The booklet which I believe is now in the possession of all those above is at  Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download  and you can download it from there.
> 
> Background stuff on the Councillors is here Scarborough Borough Council: Your Councillors
> 
> I had hoped a small team of officers would investigate the possibility of providing Aire type parking and services to advise the committee and perhaps we could have had small scale trial as proof of concept – and perhaps we still can.   The objections a council officer has put so far are below and I think these will be the arguments officers will use to oppose my proposals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I intend to email all the above asking that they read my booklet and, in my email, I will put my arguments about the above and also show how council administrators, council tax payers, local businesses and motorhomers will benefit.
> 
> Motor home parking is going to be discussed.   It can't do any harm to put, individually, our views to all those attending the meeting.  This is our opportunity.  The more views we put to group members the better.   Any ideas, even those already put?
> 
> I also thought it might be a good idea to involve the local press.  Get voters in the area to put their views.



Hi Maureenandtom,

Regards the councils reply;

Point 1 about the 1984 act comes down to do they want us to come and spend our money or not. Especially in the off season.

Point 2 Complaints about how we behave. I would of course hand over to Jeremy Clarkson for justice one or two people for dumping sewage in the street gutters and drains. He may take into account the amount of dog and seagull poo being washed of the roads into the drains but I feel sure he will bring back Keel Hauling as a deterrent. Makes you wonder where they would dump it is not in the drain. As for litter, Whats the difference between a car drivers chip wrapper and a motorhomers. Secuity is going to be hugely improved by having somebody with a £40 000 parked up as if anything is kicking off they are going to do something before it gets damaged and I dont think the average criminal is going to want to be watched by a couple of families of motorhomers while he tries to do a bit of thieving.

What is their arguement:wacko:

May I add that I think you are doing a first class job and please carry on in your calm logical way.

Richard


----------



## cooljules

Tbear said:


> Hi Maureenandtom,
> 
> Regards the councils reply;
> 
> Point 1 about the 1984 act comes down to do they want us to come and spend our money or not. Especially in the off season.
> 
> Point 2 Complaints about how we behave. I would of course hand over to Jeremy Clarkson for justice one or two people for dumping sewage in the street gutters and drains. He may take into account the amount of dog and seagull poo being washed of the roads into the drains but I feel sure he will bring back Keel Hauling as a deterrent. Makes you wonder where they would dump it is not in the drain. As for litter, Whats the difference between a car drivers chip wrapper and a motorhomers. Secuity is going to be hugely improved by having somebody with a £40 000 parked up as if anything is kicking off they are going to do something before it gets damaged and I dont think the average criminal is going to want to be watched by a couple of families of motorhomers while he tries to do a bit of thieving.
> 
> What is their arguement:wacko:
> 
> May I add that I think you are doing a first class job and please carry on in your calm logical way.
> 
> Richard



but i dont have a 40000k motorhome........lucky if mines worth 400quid. so does that mean im less important? would i treat the area less, with no respect?


----------



## Pollik

You are right Jules, it shouldn't make a difference, but the reality is that it probably does.  If they see 'wealth' in a MH, it should help them see money going into shops tills.

I know it doesn't work like that...the 'wealthy' are often more stingy with their money.

All I can say about Scarborough is that I am glad tourism must be booming for them...in this long term, no end in sight recession, I would have expected them to bite our hands off, especially out of season when their car parks are empty and generating no revenue at all.  Trouble is, we can only vote for councillors who put themselves forward and I have a theory that someone actively seeking power is reason enough for disqualification.


----------



## bobmarley3

Next winter MH's will be expected to pay £1 for 24 hours on Marine Drive.
See Parking plans give boost to motorists - Local - Scarborough Evening News

This of course assumes you can actually get on the Marine Drive due to the blinky big hole Yorkshire Water is going to excavate near their toll house pumping station (see Marine Drive to be closed - Environment - Scarborough Evening News)


----------



## runnach

What is the current situation with Scarborough ? Ideally need to stop over a night late this week ,,,,,errm young lady for company too......:tongue:  She has never camped before nevermind wilded. So less hassle the better.

What is the situation at Sea Life ? Marine drive etc?

Channa


----------



## al n sal

we was on marine drive about a month ago, no-one bothred us, although we first parked away from the other vans and was then surrounded by the boy racers, (they didn't cause us any probs either, just a little noisey), so moved closer to the gaggle of vans.:goodluck:


----------



## Neckender

We parked behind the life boat station 3 weeks ago £6 24hours, no one bothered us.

John.


----------



## maureenandtom

And so our Merry Dance continues.   Continuing from Post 175 above.

I've heard today that the Scarborough Traffic Group which was supposed to meet early January didn't meet because there were insufficient discussion items for a meeting to be held.   It's now called the Parking Review Group.

My proposals weren't heard at the October meeting because there were too many items for them to be heard.  Now there aren't enough.

However, there is good news of a sort.   It means that, unless the council is completely duplicious, however things are now, that's how they will stay for the time being.

One of the things I, early on, recommended to management at Scarborough was that an employee of the council could investigate and prepare a paper about my proposals which would then give councillors something concrete to discuss.

It seems that something approaching this will now be done.  This is an email I received this morning.

_I can confirm that the Parking Review Group have not met so far this year, as there is not a sufficient number of items on the agenda to call a meeting. As the next meeting date has not been confirmed yet, I have agreed with the chair of the group to circulate options for motorhome parking via email to members of the group. 

The email will invite comments/recommendations by members. I will copy you in to the email, so that you are aware of the contents and timeframes for comments._

I've thanked them;  offered to comment on any questions raised and tried to solve one possible problem in advance by suggesting that I'd be happy to contact local campsite managements with a proposal that their businesses might benefit from the extra business of providing fresh water and waste disposal to visiting motorhomes.   This in anticipation of a possible objection on the grounds that the council has no facilities on its car parks for disposal of waste or provision of fresh water.

You never know - I'll keep you up to date as and when I hear from them.


----------



## maingate

It may be worth pointing them towards the Fylde Council website. Let them know that other seaside Councils have different views. There are some really beneficial statements on the website about how Councillors know that we have plenty of money to spend.

Thanks for your efforts. I am busy on a couple of things up this way and will post when (if) they come to fruition.


----------



## kimbowbill

maingate said:


> It may be worth pointing them towards the Fylde Council website. Let them know that other seaside Councils have different views. There are some really beneficial statements on the website about how Councillors know that we have plenty of money to spend.
> 
> Thanks for your efforts. I am busy on a couple of things up this way and will post when (if) they come to fruition.



I have sent them the link a few times, alas, they have been ignored


----------



## Tbear

maureenandtom said:


> And so our Merry Dance continues.   Continuing from Post 175 above.
> 
> I've heard today that the Scarborough Traffic Group which was supposed to meet early January didn't meet because there were insufficient discussion items for a meeting to be held.   It's now called the Parking Review Group.
> 
> My proposals weren't heard at the October meeting because there were too many items for them to be heard.  Now there aren't enough.
> 
> However, there is good news of a sort.   It means that, unless the council is completely duplicious, however things are now, that's how they will stay for the time being.
> 
> One of the things I, early on, recommended to management at Scarborough was that an employee of the council could investigate and prepare a paper about my proposals which would then give councillors something concrete to discuss.
> 
> It seems that something approaching this will now be done.  This is an email I received this morning.
> 
> _I can confirm that the Parking Review Group have not met so far this year, as there is not a sufficient number of items on the agenda to call a meeting. As the next meeting date has not been confirmed yet, I have agreed with the chair of the group to circulate options for motorhome parking via email to members of the group.
> 
> The email will invite comments/recommendations by members. I will copy you in to the email, so that you are aware of the contents and timeframes for comments._
> 
> I've thanked them;  offered to comment on any questions raised and tried to solve one possible problem in advance by suggesting that I'd be happy to contact local campsite managements with a proposal that their businesses might benefit from the extra business of providing fresh water and waste disposal to visiting motorhomes.   This in anticipation of a possible objection on the grounds that the council has no facilities on its car parks for disposal of waste or provision of fresh water.
> 
> You never know - I'll keep you up to date as and when I hear from them.



I am sure you are aware that C&CC charge £6.00 to dumb your waste and pick up fresh water but they may not be. More or less no cost to campsite but if a hundred motorhomes do a stopover thats £500 in somebodies back pocket. Sort of ruins there argument that they are loosing money as we would never have stayed with them in the first place

Richard


----------



## Yorkshirepudding

Tbear said:


> I am sure you are aware that C&CC charge £6.00 to dumb your waste and pick up fresh water but they may not be. More or less no cost to campsite but if a hundred motorhomes do a stopover thats £500 in somebodies back pocket. Sort of ruins there argument that they are loosing money as we would never have stayed with them in the first place
> 
> Richard



Many of these sites will be "off grid" as far as waste disposal is concerned. There will be a cost incurred in emptying cess pits etc. The council will also want to recover any cost in providing these facilities too.


----------



## Tbear

Yorkshirepudding said:


> Many of these sites will be "off grid" as far as waste disposal is concerned. There will be a cost incurred in emptying cess pits etc. The council will also want to recover any cost in providing these facilities too.



If a site has 200 hundred pitches along with a couple of shower and toilet blocks I am sure it will cope with my bit of waste.

The council will get their money back directly in fees and indirectly in the money we spend in and around the town.


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> I have sent them the link a few times, alas, they have been ignored



Yes, this is one of the ways they have of dealing with things they don't like.  Ignore you until you lose the will to live or at least the will to continue.

However,

If you took the time and made the effort to make a complaint or suggestion to the manager of your local Tesco about one of their products and didn't get an acknowledgement then what would you do?   If it was me I might write to the Chief Executive asking why his staff had not seen fit to reply.  What is his policy regarding suggestions or complaints?   Just so that I know, you understand, before I take the trouble to help again.

A senior politician who I've forgotten (might have been Tony Benn) many years ago gave us some questions to ask overly self important council employees which I haven't forgotten although I didn't write them down.

_What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interest do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
How can we get rid of you?_

I've kept them ready all these years and I've never had to ask them.    Pity really.


----------



## bobmarley3

Good News - Proposed winter parking charge on Marine Drive slung out at yesterday's council meeting.


----------



## maureenandtom

I have more than a little good news.

I've now heard that motorhomes are to be discussed at a Traffic Review Group meeting on 25th April and my proposals are also to be discussed.   You can look at them in Post 175 above though I've added a bit since then dealing with possible objections and some raised by council officers.

I've been in touch with some of the people involved and I'm cautiously optimistic that something from my proposals will be adopted.   I should also be told what the meeting decides and, good or bad, I'll pass on the news when I hear it.   But, you know, I'm optimistic that Scarborough is about to become a little more motorhome friendly.


----------



## Deleted member 21686

kenjones said:


> When this topic was discussed here a couple of years ago it was suggested that the owner of a caravan site in Burniston, a couple of miles north of Scarborough, was related to a councillor (Backhouse i think) and that family interest may play a part in the decision making.
> I wonder if the council have considered that making vans unwelcome will not fill the campsites but only rob local traders of income by persuading visitors to use other resorts.



Spot on Ken.
It will just drive motor owners away to places where they are welcome.

The article is one sided.

I bet the shops and other local traders are not troubled by motorhomes.

Do they honestly think motorhome owners will start using the hotels.


----------



## n brown

drat,just realised i posted a story about a councillor in portugal encouraging vans to come to my daughter's local town,actually nicking them from silves car park ,i put it in the other scarborough thread


----------



## n brown

anyway silves is all hilly and hurts your legs walking about and its quite smart and touristy,messines is scruffy and messy[geddit?] and a bit more real.if you're going that way,and theres 2 barragems,lakes,just behind the town and both ok for camping


----------



## Haaamster

Just out of interest what's the big pull with Scarborough, only went as a kid and remember it on par with skeggy, tired, run down and in need of a lick of paint.
Am I missing something or do thing go on that can't be told :scared:


----------



## Robmac

Haaamster said:


> Just out of interest what's the big pull with Scarborough, only went as a kid and remember it on par with skeggy, tired, run down and in need of a lick of paint.
> Am I missing something or do thing go on that can't be told :scared:



Agree, don't like most seaside towns, that's why I love Scotland, you can get beside the sea in stunning locations without all the commercial crap and all the crowds.


----------



## barryd

Haaamster said:


> Just out of interest what's the big pull with Scarborough, only went as a kid and remember it on par with skeggy, tired, run down and in need of a lick of paint.
> Am I missing something or do thing go on that can't be told :scared:



Agreed.  Scarborough is a dump.  There are much nicer places on the East Yorks Coast which are also more motorhome friendly.  Scarborough and Blackpool were the two places as a family we went to on holiday as kids in the 70's.  Loved it then.  As a boy I spent hours and hours sailing my toy yacht in the pond at Peasholme Park.  Mrs D and I went back there a few years ago to reminisce and the pond was neglected with a shopping trolley in the middle of it and nobody sailing toy boats.

My advice.  Drive to Dover, over to France, do not pass go (or scarborough), do not collect £200.


----------



## maureenandtom

Haaamster said:


> Just out of interest what's the big pull with Scarborough, only went as a kid and remember it on par with skeggy, tired, run down and in need of a lick of paint.
> Am I missing something or do thing go on that can't be told :scared:



Haamster.  

Yes there is a little bit you're missing but it's understandable because it isn't really about Scarborough in isolation.   There is a pretty full agreement among motohomers that local authorities should be encouraged to provide Aires on the popular and successful contintental model though there are plenty of shades of opinion about Aires.  Many are keen on the model, as I am, and many prefer to be fully independent.  Few councils provide dedicated parking spaces for us and we either bow to officialdom or we "sneak about" a bit hoping to get away with free camping - and mostly we do ok.   Some do one or the other as circumstances dictate.

Scarborough has been experiencing problems with motorhomes parking in large numbers in sensitive spots - that is, perceived as sensitive by residents and the council too.   There is a possibility - a decreasing possibility if they read these threads - that the Scarborough council might provide dedicated parking places for motorhomes.  We'll know this in not much more than a week from now.

If Scarborough do it then they can be used as an example to persuade other local authorities to do the same.  I'm keen to see them provide places;  it seems others are not.


----------



## Haaamster

Hi Maureenandtom
thanks for the reply,yes i'm aware of the continental aires, used them a lot myself but wasn't aware that people were trying to get the same going over here. Not trying to knock your or anyone elses efforts, highly commendable and you are to be applauded for it.
Was just really asking because like I said I remember Scarborough as a rather run down seaside place, like most British seaside places and not somewhere I would imagine going to without good reason. Just wondered why everyone seemed keen on it.








_ps.*just being nosey, thought I might be missing out on something really*_


----------



## kimbowbill

the town is a dump, thats for sure, but some of the coastal walks are spectacular especially round Bempton Cliffs,Filey Brigg and a place called Cloughton, thats why i go, i dont go into the town, i go to pubs outside town, like the Manor ? at Scalby do an amazing breakfast, theres also a pub in Cloughton, cant think of its name but the grub is fantastic.


----------



## maureenandtom

I have two lots of news so I'll put it into two posts.   This first is about on-street parking.   Not sure what to make of it really but I suppose something will happen.

This is the text of an email I received from Scarborough Council about the middle of April.


_I can confirm that Motor Homes will now be part of the Parking Review Group meeting of the 25th April.* The meeting has been specifically called to discuss amongst other motor home issues, your proposals.

I should make you aware that approximately a week ago North Yorkshire County Council ( who are the highways authority in the Borough of Scarborough) agreed funding for a scheme to prohibit Motor Caravans from parking overnight on a number of streets in Filey, Whitby and Scarborough.
As you will appreciate these proposals will have a knock on effect on the Council's car parks.* Whilst these proposals were being muted I held back writing the options paper due to the possible ramifications the decision could have.

I have spoken to a number of members on the group already over the past few weeks and the general consensus is that The Council look to provide a number of car parks across The Borough aimed specifically for Motorhomes which allow overnight camping.* I hope to have a report finalised to go to members of the group by the end of next week.* I will forward you a copy, I would appreciate your comments upon reading.
_
I didn't get the report before the meeting but more of that in the next post.


----------



## maureenandtom

I received these minutes today.   







I'm not sure if the council now think my involvement is at an end but I've already responded by suggesting that if the £10 proposed charge is in addition to a similar daily parking fee then their one year trial begins with a disadvantage and I might respond again when their plans become final.

I don't think this is final – officers are to prepare a report for consideration by the Portfolio Holder.  I'm not sure who this is but I think it is Councillor Backhouse and I know many of us know of his conflicting interests.   I don't think his conflicting interest is necessarily a bad thing for us.

I can tell you who attended the meeting together with their contact details but the stuff I provided earlier is probably enough.

Something was going to happen about parking in Scarborough and maybe we'll come out with something of advantage to us.


----------



## fofeg101

Sorry, I only just caught up with this thread. We went to Scarborough....once!!. I've never been enamoured with anywhere North of Stoke-on-Trent, we did go to Harrogate a few weeks ago, but only because we had to. Councils placing restrictions on Campervans will only strengthen my resolve to avoid the place. I say, head South young man....head for the Sun and the warmth.


----------



## red ted

:rolleyes2:





kimbowbill said:


> the debate continues then, will be interesing to see what happens, especially when one of the councillors owns a caravan site :rolleyes2:



:rolleyes2:


----------



## groyne

Scalby Mills carpark, what goes round comes round, didn't that used to be a Caravan site?


----------



## red ted

:cheers: in land for us lol





al n sal said:


> we've always made a point of spending money in the local small community, not major chains, etc,
> 
> if they make moves to make it more difficult for us, then I'm more than happy to move my camping in-land definitely away from Scarborough.
> 
> then they won't get any of my hard earned money.
> 
> plenty of nice places to visit, that want my cash:mad1:,


----------



## scenictraveller

i would say give it one year and see what happens,

if you have 30 mhs with 2 people in it that 60 persons they wouldnt of  have had,

so the local business may not suffer that mutch but take that out of every day/week,during the summer.

soon the local small business will see that the hoteliers are the problem,not the mh drivers/campers.

i noted the £10 a night fee,good if your not going to get harrased by locals but cant see that being done.

just my bawbees worth,tend not to stay near towns pass through get what i need and find a quieter spot.


----------



## Tbear

When it can be less than £10 to park on a cl/cs with more facilities provided for us? I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. It is a shame that we cannot inform local residents that they will have to make up the funds lost from our spending when we go somewhere else. Going by the number of Mhomes we spotted on our last visit. This is going to be a considerable amount.

Richard


----------



## arumba

ok £10 hmmm i supose this will be just for parking over night and wont include electric and emptying waste etc well me and my better half only paid £8:50 a night on a CL site which included electric,  emptying waste, and fillup with water so i consider £10 a little expensive just for parking over night what do others think?


----------



## refurbisher

Just feels like discrimination against a group of generally good people who spend a lot of time out and about (not like the offensive drunken types that are the real scourge of Scarborough). £10!!!!!! do they think that will attract us in lol, what a shame an empty overnight carpark such as West Pier which we enjoy with the children due to the ease of fishing and close proximate of the shops will be off limits. Spent a small fortune in Scarborough last year, will not bother anymore, and no, you guessed it we won't be booking a hotel instead. They should be throwing the doors open for a price consistent with the current carpark prices and letting the traders benefit. British controlling, money grabbing politicians, you've gotta love em.:sucks:


----------



## Canalsman

I'd rather pass my tenner in the direction of a local pub for a few pints of ale 

And you'd probably be in a more pleasant location with a nicer car park - toilets too ...


----------



## snowbirds

*Why go there?*

Hi Tbear 

A great retort, I agree with you they don't understand the money we spend and just whine,I have never stayed there but payed good money on camp sites in the area.I first traveled in France in the 70's, what an eye opener to the crap money grabbing site's in the UK. The more I see here from the poor farmers- come camp site's the more I head abroad, They need to get off there subsidised tractors and range rovers and see how Europe handle it,(IT's not a part time job in the Summer if we have sun, to grab the money). Not one of the village  shops in Europe, that I bought my bread wine meat complained about the Aires I stayed on in their village at next to no cost, nice friendly locals, we are about to set off again soon.Come on you great town's and (so called over priced camp sites that don't what my Motorhome or money, give me a reason to tour my own back yard.

RANT OVER! Regards Snowbirds.  






Tbear said:


> Who are these faceless, nameless traders that are in despair?
> 
> Is it the man I buy newspaper from?
> Is it the café I get my Coffee and Bacon Sandwich from?
> Is it the garage I get a tank of petrol from?
> Is it the shop I buy provisions from?
> Is it the girl I buy an Ice cream from?
> Is it the Chippie I get my supper from?
> Perhaps it,s the pub that I have the odd pint in.
> 
> Or is it some money grabber who wants me to spend £30.00 to park on soft grass and maybe I will get a few gallons of water and empty my tanks which I can do for free elsewhere.
> 
> If a hundred motorhomes (not the dozen or so I have seen) parked along Marine drive at night, you could still do it without blocking anyones view and there will still be masses of space for other people to park at night.
> 
> I admit that I am not putting money directly in the hotel owners pockets but after a great weekend in Scarborough, I go back to work and tell friends and colleagues what a wonderful time I had in Scarborough. Not going to do them any harm is it?
> 
> Richard


----------



## maureenandtom

The responses are interesting but I think there's a point missing.   Those of us who think Scarborough is a crap place are not part of Scarborough's problem;  it's those of us who want to go there - and there seem to be plenty who do.

I think their tentative decision to provide parking places is encouraging and follows the recent similar decision by Fylde Council.   For those of us who would like to see the Aires system established in the UK, and I see little disagreement about that, then the more councils who make a start the better.   Maybe some of us who don't like Scarborough will still be able to use this as an example and encourage places we do like to do the same.   Got to start somewhere and this is part of the start.

Is it just the proposed £10 fee?   For myself I think a 24 hour fee at this level would be fine even without facilities though probably not if there is to be a daytime fee too.   On the subject of facilities I think it would be unreasonable to expect the council to spend on facilities before they have properly tested the theory.


----------



## kimbowbill

Well i wont be paying £10 to stop in a car park, like canalsman said, rather put it behind a bar in a local pub, they can stuff it, and i do think its a bit much asking for facilities when we are always banging on about how much we dont need them, its a real shame for Scarborough, the coastline is beautiful, and i will miss it but me thinks there is plenty of riverside and local villages that will welcome my hard earned cash, eg Buxworth, rather give them mi tenner.

why cant they just keep things as they are, allow parking overnight and charge say £5, they would earn more that way, thats my view anyway


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> Well i wont be paying £10 to stop in a car park, like canalsman said, rather put it behind a bar in a local pub, they can stuff it, and i do think its a bit much asking for facilities when we are always banging on about how much we dont need them, its a real shame for Scarborough, the coastline is beautiful, and i will miss it but me thinks there is plenty of riverside and local villages that will welcome my hard earned cash, eg Buxworth, rather give them mi tenner.
> 
> why cant they just keep things as they are, allow parking overnight and charge say £5, they would earn more that way, thats my view anyway



Because the public perception is that there are too many of us.  You've seen the newspaper letters and, like me, you've responded to the press.   I think you're right about the charging, and I've passed on my opinion about that to the council, but I think Scarborough is right to provide a rudimentary Aire and I hope they do.  How it works out remains to be seen but they're new to this and if they get it right then I'd like to see more councils doing the same - just like the mainland Europe we're so pleased to tell people about.


----------



## scenictraveller

alot of small coastal villages charge £5 i.e in honesty box concept to park over night,which u dont mind paying if it helps upgrading and
gives u access to water etc.

not come across many that dont want you there.

but there will be some


----------



## barryd

I see a pattern here.  Fylde council have done the same.  What Fylde have done is apparently answered our needs and also satisfied the demands of the locals to get rid of us.  You see by Fylde providing an official car park for us to park on it has enabled them to enforce bylaws and strict no overnighting restrictions and signs on the long established already free overnight spots such as Fairhaven lake. 

This is exactly what’s going to happen here.  Once they provide you with an official car park for overnight parking there is no excuse for you to stop anywhere else (for free) and up go the signs and the enforceable byelaws.

Hmm.  Well that’s fair enough you would think but then not when you look at the charges which over 24 hours the way both councils are proposing will be the same price as a campsite for a bit of tarmac and no facilities on a car park that otherwise would have been empty of a night!  I dont give a stuff about having facilities and thats been the whole point but why would i pay £10 for my wheels to be on the ground in a car park when I can park on a street for free?  All over europe its either free or a couple of Euros for this kind of parking but mostly free.

Doesn’t sound like progress to me.  Either they don’t want us (which is my opinion) or they don’t value us or have just got it wrong.

Sorry but the continent once again gets my money this summer.  Off in June for five months.


----------



## northernspirit2001

*self sufficient*

I never buy anything, I have window boxes full of vegetables and keep chickens in the bathroom......yeh right!

Restauranting out eats up my budget so i compromise with a takeaway in the MH (often eaten parked right outside in case I'm still hungry at the end of it)! I have suitable stocks however for when in the wilds!


----------



## maureenandtom

barryd said:


> I see a pattern here.  Fylde council have done the same.  What Fylde have done is apparently answered our needs and also satisfied the demands of the locals to get rid of us.  You see by Fylde providing an official car park for us to park on it has enabled them to enforce bylaws and strict no overnighting restrictions and signs on the long established already free overnight spots such as Fairhaven lake.
> 
> This is exactly what’s going to happen here.  Once they provide you with an official car park for overnight parking there is no excuse for you to stop anywhere else (for free) and up go the signs and the enforceable byelaws.
> 
> Hmm.  Well that’s fair enough you would think but then not when you look at the charges which over 24 hours the way both councils are proposing will be the same price as a campsite for a bit of tarmac and no facilities on a car park that otherwise would have been empty of a night!  I dont give a stuff about having facilities and thats been the whole point but why would i pay £10 for my wheels to be on the ground in a car park when I can park on a street for free?  All over europe its either free or a couple of Euros for this kind of parking but mostly free.
> 
> Doesn’t sound like progress to me.  Either they don’t want us (which is my opinion) or they don’t value us or have just got it wrong.
> 
> Sorry but the continent once again gets my money this summer.  Off in June for five months.



Yes, I think that's true.   I've said exactly the same thing during discussions on whether we should try for Aires.   This is not altogether different from the situation in France.   I first noticed this in Capbreton maybe fifteen years ago and it seemed reasonable to me then and it seems reasonable to me now - provided they get the charging right.  We still used Francs then and I can't remember the price in Francs but it was three or four pounds.  I don't know how much Capbreton charges now but the last time I was there I know that there were notices declaring that overnight parking in the town was frowned upon.   I've since seen it in several towns but nowadays I hardly notice.

 I know that if a French council provided an Aire at five or six Euros I'd feel uncomfortable wild camping in the market square leaving the Aire unused.


----------



## kimbowbill

Whats to stop me parking on a road at night then down the sea front in day?


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> Whats to stop me parking on a road at night then down the sea front in day?



Probably nothing.  It's what some of us do now.


----------



## barryd

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, I think that's true.   I've said exactly the same thing during discussions on whether we should try for Aires.   This is not altogether different from the situation in France.   I first noticed this in Capbreton maybe fifteen years ago and it seemed reasonable to me then and it seems reasonable to me now - provided they get the charging right.  We still used Francs then and I can't remember the price in Francs but it was three or four pounds.  I don't know how much Capbreton charges now but the last time I was there I know that there were notices declaring that overnight parking in the town was frowned upon.   I've since seen it in several towns but nowadays I hardly notice.
> 
> I know that if a French council provided an Aire at five or six Euros I'd feel uncomfortable wild camping in the market square leaving the Aire unused.



An excellent point.  Of course if there is a good Aire for a few Euros you would use it rather than park in the market square (although unless there is a local bylaw this is generally legal in France) but you just have to look at the discussions on the French campingcar-infos forum and on their wonderful CAMPINGCAR-INFOS database to see what our very well established French motorhomers think about being over charged (or charged at all) for motorhome parking.  You also read many a comment about this restaurant or this baker or other services to know (like us) most of them spend locally.  I wonder then if the reasons so many French people have motorhomes is because its easy for them to enjoy their travels in France wheras less per capita own them here because it isnt easy and those of us that do own them prefer to spend our hard earned abroad because they make it easy for us and lets face it the French Alps, Dordogne and the Med are slightly more appealing than Scarborough!  You think they would be fighting to keep us here!


----------



## maureenandtom

Just out of interest I looked up that old post of mine I referred to.  It was in a closed thread http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11823-aires-uk.html so I can't quote from it directly but it's still interesting to read.  You know, it might not be to everybody's taste to have Aires in Britain.

This is a screenshot of my post then


----------



## kimbowbill

maureenandtom said:


> Probably nothing.  It's what some of us do now.



Exactly, and its what i've done for years when i dont feel right somewhere, so i'm buggered if i'm gunna pay £10, if i park in sea life i always put money in the machine, even after 6, so if i still go, which i doubt, am putting nowt in,


----------



## barryd

maureenandtom said:


> Just out of interest I looked up that old post of mine I referred to.  It was in a closed thread http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11823-aires-uk.html so I can't quote from it directly but it's still interesting to read.  You know, it might not be to everybody's taste to have Aires in Britain.
> 
> This is a screenshot of my post then




Yes quite.  Be careful what you wish for eh!

What we have enjoyed and appreciated overseas can never I dont think be repeated here for a whole host of reasons.


----------



## Tbear

I'd give them a fiver to park in a good spot or if it was a good Aire de service then I would pay a tenner no problem but to expect us to pay a tenner when the locals will be parking for free just down the road. We pay the road tax just the same as they do. Whats the difference whether you are in the van or not?
We cannot go far this year. Daughter pregnant with twins and Mother in law not too well so the Yorkshire coast sounded a good idea. As a Yorkshireman I think I will be giving my money to the Welsh this year as the last time we visited the S. Wales coast we where made very welcome for little cost and had a great time. Fantastic coast, empty beaches, beautiful countryside. 

Richard


----------



## whitevanwoman

kimbowbill said:


> the town is a dump, thats for sure, but some of the coastal walks are spectacular especially round Bempton Cliffs,Filey Brigg and a place called Cloughton, thats why i go, i dont go into the town, i go to pubs outside town, like the Manor ? at Scalby do an amazing breakfast, theres also a pub in Cloughton, cant think of its name but the grub is fantastic.



I've just spent a few nights away on the North Yorkshire coast, the first night at Runswick Bay in the car park (charges payable 9am - 6pm), had the car park to myself and the most beautiful view from my bed the following morning. There are even free 24 hour beautifully kept public toilets right next to the cafe. It was so lovely that I willingly paid to stay on the car park till early afternoon and had a lovely walk on the beach with the dog and a coffee and something to eat in the village cafe. Win win situation.

Then I moved on to meet friends at teatime who were staying at the C&C site right next door to Scalby Manor Pub, it was costing them £25 for 2 nights incl hook up and those that weren't members were supposed to pay an additional fee but apparently the site forgot to charge them. After a dog walk along the cliff tops which was stunning, we ate in Scalby Manor pub and I can definitely recommend the Mon - Sat Carvery Meal Deal at the pub, a massive plate full for £3.99 or £5.79 including a pint. If breakfast been served in the pub from 8am (breakfast was served from 9am) we would have had breakfast too but we had to be away by 8.30. I parked the van in a quiet corner away from the cameras in the pub car park and was away by 8.30 and had no probs. I wondered about asking permission to stay over in their car park whilst we were having a meal but decided not to ask in case they said no. If I'd been challenged, I would have said that I'd had a drink or wasn't feeling well. I even managed to sneak a shower in the caravan site showers 

The following night (after a rather special result - those of you who follow RTP on Facebook will probably catch up with our big news) I stayed up on Fylindale Moor, a choice of 2 hard standings just off one of the quietest roads in Britain - in 24 hours I only saw about 4 vehicles and 2 cyclists. Another "wake up to a beautiful view" spot. Not sure if any of these are on the POI, will check and post details if not. 

But the main point with regards to Scarborough is, as other people have said, that there are other stunning places to stay in that part of the world and unless you particularly want or need to be in an urban area (shops / mobile & internet reception / close to venue for specific events) I would recommend leaving the sea front in Scarborough to those who can afford a parking charge or who really need to be in town, and seek out those lovely hidden bays and beaches, or stay high up on the moors and cliffs. 

Credit to Maureen for all the hard work she has put in on behalf of MHomers, the result may not be to the liking of the majority - I wouldn't pay £10 overnight parking fee plus daytime parking charges because I simply couldn't afford to do that everywhere I stayed and I work on the principle of spending approx a fiver wherever I stay, either in parking charges or in local shops / cafes, with the odd spot every now and again where there's free parking and so remote that there's no local village or services being a "free" bonus. But for those who can afford the charges, or those who don't wish to be out in the middle of nowhere, Maureen's hard work does mean that hopefully MHomers will in future have the choice to pay and stay if they so wish.


----------



## kimbowbill

I have asked at Scalby manor and they said no, only because they are right next to a caravan site, which i totally understand, the breakfast is amazin, and the carvery,


----------



## yorkslass

kimbowbill said:


> Exactly, and its what i've done for years when i dont feel right somewhere, so i'm buggered if i'm gunna pay £10, if i park in sea life i always put money in the machine, even after 6, so if i still go, which i doubt, am putting nowt in,



like you last time we went we parked on marine drive and went to pay,didn"t realise charges didn"t start till the following morning. woul be happy to pay £5 overnite but not any more without fresh water and toilet emptying.


----------



## whitevanwoman

kimbowbill said:


> I have asked at Scalby manor and they said no, only because they are right next to a caravan site, which i totally understand, the breakfast is amazin, and the carvery,



:lol-053:  good job I didn't ask then. I did think they might have pointed that out and I did feel a bit cheeky but I was only there about 10 hours, and ate and drank in the pub so I didn't feel too bad. I suppose it's easier for me in the Tranny to stealth camp and get away with it than it is for someone in a coachbuilt MH. The breakfast did look good though. 

Hi ho, off again tomorrow  meeting up with Firefox and we're going to Tewkesbury to be very loud and not act our age and dance in the mud at a festival for the weekend :beer: It will be my longest trip (in distance) since I got the Tranny but she's running sweet, and is gradually turning into a mobile boudoir and I'm loving it and the freedom it's giving me.


----------



## kimbowbill

whitevanwoman said:


> :lol-053:  good job I didn't ask then. I did think they might have pointed that out and I did feel a bit cheeky but I was only there about 10 hours, and ate and drank in the pub so I didn't feel too bad. I suppose it's easier for me in the Tranny to stealth camp and get away with it than it is for someone in a coachbuilt MH. The breakfast did look good though.
> 
> Hi ho, off again tomorrow  meeting up with Firefox and we're going to Tewkesbury to be very loud and not act our age and dance in the mud at a festival for the weekend :beer: It will be my longest trip (in distance) since I got the Tranny but she's running sweet, and is gradually turning into a mobile boudoir and I'm loving it and the freedom it's giving me.



Sounds like fun, hope the weather stays dry for you


----------



## whitevanwoman

kimbowbill said:


> Sounds like fun, hope the weather stays dry for you



Day 1 - :drive: :welcome: :beer: :cheers: :fun: :wacko: :banana: :cheers: :wacko: :banana: :cheers: :idea: :juggle: :cool1: :danger: :have fun:  :beer: :cheers: :banana: :sleep-040: :sleep-027: :dnd: 

Day 2 - :idea: :beer: :cheers: :fun: :wacko: :banana: :cheers: :wacko: :banana: :cheers: :idea: :juggle: :ditto:  :ditto:  :ditto:  :sleep-040: :sleep-027: :dnd: 

Day 3 - :sad: :drive: 


No need for words, photos will be on FB tomorrow.

 Ask Firefox about "Mimi" ...   :heart:  ????????


----------



## whitevanwoman

Sorry for taking the thread fftopic:


----------



## maureenandtom

My apologies to Arthur 




Old_Arthur said:


> New drive over parking situation - Local - Scarborough Evening News



Is this not pretty well what we want?  I mean we won't know for sure until we know about details of charging and possible provision of services.   But, is this not a step forward?   Not for those who don't want Aires and not for those who don't want to go to Scarborough but, at the very least, is this not now another little evidence to present to any other council having problems with motorhomes?


----------



## Smaug

I fear the devil will be in the detail. 

The Secretary of State is going to make Traffic Regulations much easier to set up. That makes it easier to ban certain classes of vehicles. Maybe a Council will offer a grotty car park somewhere at a tenner a night with no facilities, greenery or view - or maybe they will just ban us. 

Be afraid, be very afraid!


----------



## kimbowbill

Smaug said:


> I fear the devil will be in the detail.
> 
> The Secretary of State is going to make Traffic Regulations much easier to set up. That makes it easier to ban certain classes of vehicles. Maybe a Council will offer a grotty car park somewhere at a tenner a night with no facilities, greenery or view - or maybe they will just ban us.
> 
> Be afraid, be very afraid!



And also make other councils follow suit, i think the chap who is asking for the overnight signs to be took away needs to go into hiding, i'm not particularly bothered now about Scarbs, if i want to go, i will jsut park on a street somewhere then go down the seafront at 8 am, stay there all day not spend any money which will pee the residents off even more, what they really need to do is ban MH all together from parking anywhere in Scarbs, Filey, Whitby, then wait for the figures to roll in, loss in trade, they will be begging us to come back, just my thoughts, i'm sticking to pub car parks inland, the landlords welcome us with open arms and i dont mind sticking my hard earned pennies over the bar, helping to keep the pub open.


----------



## Firefox

kimbowbill said:


> i think the chap who is asking for the overnight signs to be took away needs to go into hiding.



Agreed, he is showing a breathtaking lack of common sense and a complete misunderstanding of what is going to happen.


----------



## maureenandtom

I'm having difficulty with all this and the things I want to to know, I want to know genuinely and not for the sake of a bad-tempered argument.

I think what Scarborough is doing is a good thing - this is my honest feeling.   The town might not get it right at first - but that's up to us to influence what happens and it's down to price and location and eventually, perhaps, services too.  Why do you not even want the town to make this first move - let's be honest, the first move to a system almost universally applauded?

Is it just Scarborough you want not to provide Aires or is it everywhere?   Would you like the European Aires system dismantled?   The approval of the Coninental system is pretty well universal - there are only few who come out and say they don't like them - so I don't understand why Scarborough is getting villified for doing something that we approve of elsewhere.  Is it because they've been a long time coming round to our point of view?   Our noses out of joint a bit?

Is it that we just don't trust our own local government?   I don't.   I definitely don't but most of us seem to.  But not about this?

Many will refuse to use the new Aire - and that's fine - but is it not a little hypocritical to continue using Aires elsewhere in Europe?

Help me out, eh?


----------



## maureenandtom

Firefox said:


> Agreed. He is showing a breathtaking lack of common sense and a complete misunderstanding of the consequences.



How can making public bodies work honestly show a lack of common sense?  I don't want an argument about legality or illegality.  Dishonesty is dishonesty whatever words you use.  Ethically wrong for them to show notices they have no power to enforce, ok?  Let's not weasel on about precise meanings of words.   These signs are wrong.   Why do you want public bodies to continue using them?


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> Dear Mr Watson
> 
> Could you please explain to me why Scarborough is so 'anti motorhome'
> 
> . . .
> 
> Can you not adopt a 'French' attitude and provide Aires? this would encourage more people from abroad.
> ...
> 
> Miss Morris​ ...................................................................................................................
> 
> ]



It looks like you were successful.  You changed *his *mind,  Why have you changed *your *mind?  I don't want bad temper, I truly want to know.  Your answer might very well change my own mind.


----------



## maureenandtom

basildog said:


> I think the point is that there are very few people in this country that actually want to camp off sites as they have been brain washed into thinking this is the only way by the clubs and magazines who if you look never have a bad word to say about either build quality of new motorhomes or the clubs as this is their main source of advertising revenue !
> How refreshing it would be to see an article that actually said this camper or this site is a pile of crap and until it is sorted do not use or buy it ?
> 
> The thing with making a fuss in this country about forming aires is that once a few miserable grotty car parks have been allocated for motorhome use then councils may well seek the powers to enforce the no overnighting signs which would then stop it completely !
> I am afraid that I park beside no overnight signs as I cannot stand some jumped up twerp telling me where to park
> I will use a pub car park sometimes but really only if the weather bad or as a last resort as do not like to feel that I need to spend money alll the time !
> Some are happy to just buy a few pints which I consider a joke as the profit on that is tiny and then expext to fill up with water and empty cassettes etc .
> If I stay at a pub I like to spend a decent amount there on meals etc .
> Most of our stays are off the grid in places with no facillities as we can last for 4 or 5 days with no need for anything and we like the freedom
> I understand the need for campsites but why not buy a van with just a bed and cooker as all the other expensive equipment is not needed for those people that use sites ?
> We stay in Cornwall a lot in the winter and are often alone in places that in summer are heaving and speaking to retaraunt owners etc they like us motorhomers as we are year round customers .



You'll have to watch that bit in red.  You'll get as much Triple A as me.

Last week, I stayed four nights in the town where I had my little parking battle.  I had received a FOI answer from the council telling me that there is no offence of cooking, sleeping, camping.  You might remember I told of it.  There is still a sign saying "No overnight sleeping" though it is no longer on the list of offences.

I slept soundly beside the sign.   I didn't truly want a ticket but I'd have been quite pleased to get one.   I'd have enjoyed quoting their own words back to them

I also spent one night in DuncanAndersons car park at the Portsmouth Arms.  Much to be recommended.  Thank you Duncan and Dee for making us welcome.


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> How can making public bodies work honestly show a lack of common sense?  I don't want an argument about legality or illegality.  Dishonesty is dishonesty whatever words you use.  Ethically wrong for them to show notices they have no power to enforce, ok?  Let's not weasel on about precise meanings of words.   These signs are wrong.   Why do you want public bodies to continue using them?



As several of us have said, we can all agree that there is a certain immorality about these "deterrent" signs but we need to think very carefully about the consequences before making a fuss. It is highly unlikely (although admittedly not impossible) that local authorities will remove the signs if we create a fuss. At best, the signs will remain in place; at worst the local authorities will be driven to pass TROs that give legal backing to them. 

It is not that any of us "want public bodies to continue using them"; it is a question of assessing the likely consequences before taking any action. This is why it IS important to get your words right - it is not merely a pedantic game. 

In short, sometimes it is not enough to be right; sometimes it is best to take the quiet road - and, Tom, you can park underneath "no overnighting" signs as often as you like and you will not get any flak from me; my criticism comes when people cause criminal damage because that gives us all a bad name.


----------



## Smaug

Maureen & Tom,

It is not the provision of low cost Aires that is a problem - provided it ADDS to the choice available. My concern is with the removal of the existing options of wild camping, allegedly replacing them with Aires is NOT a benefit for me. Incidentally, I have never used an Aire in my life & probably never will. I will happily pay a farmer, pub owner, or whoever, a fiver or tenner to park in a field for a night, but I wouldn't want to spend my time in grotty lorry parks at the back of town for the same price. 

There already are laws to prosecute people who litter or damage when wild camping, I would like to see those used from time to time, perhaps using cameras at hot spots like they do with illegal dumping in the countryside. Just trying to ban everybody is a mean minded & uncalled for solution to a problem that doesn't really seem to exist. There is no way that MH owners will suddenly start using Hotels & B&B tp stay in Scarborough, they will just go elsewhere.


----------



## maureenandtom

Smaug said:


> Maureen & Tom,
> 
> It is not the provision of low cost Aires that is a problem - provided it ADDS to the choice available. My concern is with the removal of the existing options of wild camping, allegedly replacing them with Aires is NOT a benefit for me. Incidentally, I have never used an Aire in my life & probably never will. I will happily pay a farmer, pub owner, or whoever, a fiver or tenner to park in a field for a night, but I wouldn't want to spend my time in grotty lorry parks at the back of town for the same price.
> 
> There already are laws to prosecute people who litter or damage when wild camping, I would like to see those used from time to time, perhaps using cameras at hot spots like they do with illegal dumping in the countryside. Just trying to ban everybody is a mean minded & uncalled for solution to a problem that doesn't really seem to exist. There is no way that MH owners will suddenly start using Hotels & B&B tp stay in Scarborough, they will just go elsewhere.



Yes, that is a concern.  







[/QUOTE]

If you believe the minutes they have abandoned the attempt to drive us into Hotels, B&Bs or campsites and are trying to cope with the provision of dedicated parking spaces.  For convenience I call it an Aire.   If you believe the minutes!     For once I do believe them.






The council have already pretended they have the powers to ban some overnighting,  Their parking manager says below - "Our orders therefore prohibit these practices."  






Somewhere in one of these threads is reference to a Scarborough Evening News Item where a council officer, taken to task over his inability to enforce notices, gave as his excuse that it wasn't clear who should enforce them, him or the police or the county council.   I can find it if needed.  Other councils have been taken to task in their own local press now and again.   Poole comes to mind although others escape me right now.   The attempt to remove the options of wildcamping has been on their agenda for some time.   We lose nothing.  That's my opinion but it's a good opinion.

I can cope quite easily with objections like yours because I agree with them.   What I'm having difficulty with now is the change of mind from, "Oh, why do they not provide Aires," to "Bloody Scarborough. trying to do us down again."  

These are not direct quotations, my own little precis, but I can find them.  I wasn't picking on Kimbowbill, hers was the first quotation I came across.   There are plenty who have changed their minds.  I'd like to know why.

Edit:   Here is the news article I talk about above.

http://www.whitbygazette.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/can_t_legislate_for_camper_vans_1_3649535

It is a disgrace, in my opinion, that councils think they can get away with this rubbish.


----------



## AndyC

*A bit of good news*

I've just been speaking to a chap from the Hawick Welcome Initiative - they actively want campervans to stay in their town. So they have allocated spaces in a large car park in the centre of town (Common Haugh) for motorhomes to stay overnight for free... Here: 55.42242,-2.791097 (Common Haugh Car Park) - Google Maps

Isn't that a refreshing change?

AndyC


----------



## Firefox

Maureen & Tom, I explained in another thread why challenging these signs is not a good move.

I don't think they are exactly immoral. The councils are putting them up, trying to respond to health and saftey concerns (sometimes dressed up ones I agree, prompted by local campsite owners, but the councils duty is partly to respond to local objections). They don't have the funds at the moment to do proper signs and TRO's everywhere. 

But, in a practical sense, you have two scenarios.

1. The signs remain and some people will ignore them, some people won't. Either way you can still wild camp there without a problem.

2. Challenge the signs, and it will be like red rag to a bull. The councils WILL find the money eventually and they will have every reason to do proper TROs after some "clever" person wasted their efforts with the original warning signs. We are going to get slapped in the face big time, and there will be enforcable lines and plates all over the highland lay-bys. Is that what you want? I don't think so.

I appreciate you are trying to support the right thing, but on this problem, you have to see through the human nature, local politics, and practicalities of the situation.


----------



## maureenandtom

Firefox said:


> Maureen & Tom, I explained in another thread why challenging these signs is not a good move.
> 
> I don't think they are exactly immoral. The councils are putting them up, trying to respond to health and saftey concerns (sometimes dressed up ones I agree, prompted by local campsite owners, but the councils duty is partly to respond to local objections). They don't have the funds at the moment to do proper signs and TRO's everywhere.
> 
> But, in a practical sense, you have two scenarios.
> 
> 1. The signs remain and some people will ignore them, some people won't. Either way you can still wild camp there without a problem.
> 
> 2. Challenge the signs, and it will be like red rag to a bull. The councils WILL find the money eventually and they will have every reason to do proper TROs after some "clever" person wasted their efforts with the original warning signs. We are going to get slapped in the face big time, and there will be enforcable lines and plates all over the highland lay-bys. Is that what you want? I don't think so.
> 
> I appreciate you are trying to support the right thing, but on this problem, you have to see through the human nature, local politics, and practicalities of the situation.



I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to challenge the signs in Scarborough.   Their local press already did that.

My views are pretty transparent about the Scottish signs.   I don't want to muddy the waters in this thread but I resent the public being divided into classes.  One class knows the signs are rubbish and gets away with it, another class is frightened and willigly or unwillingly obeys them.  The first class wants to keep that status quo because the alternative might be worse.   This means that the first want to keep their privilege at the expense of the second.  I don't like the immorality of being in the first class.  

There's a quotation tripping into the back of my head and if I get the time I'll look it up.  Something about when public fears the government equals bad, when the government fears the public equals good.  Not meant to be funny.


Edit:  I look back and see this had already been mentioned in this thread - my apologies, my text above remains unedited

The quotation is attributed to Thomas Jefferson but I think he must have been thinking of something more weighty than parking signs:    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


----------



## kimbowbill

maureenandtom said:


> It looks like you were successful.  You changed *his *mind,  Why have you changed *your *mind?  I don't want bad temper, I truly want to know.  Your answer might very well change my own mind.



I dont think for one minute my email changed their mind, i didnt even get a proper response. 

i've changed my mind because i just cant be bothered, i travel alone, i dont want to visit a place where i feel uncomfortable, and that i do, my time out and about is precious, like i'm sure everyone elses is, i just dont like been stared at when i park up or feel that some locals may slash my tyres, or damge my van, thats the feeling i got from the posts in the gazette, we are really hated by them and i'm sorry, my very hard earned money aint going into somewhere where i am hated.

Jenny


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> I dont think for one minute my email changed their mind, i didnt even get a proper response.
> 
> i've changed my mind because i just cant be bothered, i travel alone, i dont want to visit a place where i feel uncomfortable, and that i do, my time out and about is precious, like i'm sure everyone elses is, i just dont like been stared at when i park up or feel that some locals may slash my tyres, or damge my van, thats the feeling i got from the posts in the gazette, we are really hated by them and i'm sorry, my very hard earned money aint going into somewhere where i am hated.
> 
> Jenny



That's ok, I understand.

I think maybe you underestimate your persuasive powers though and my voice was added and so were a few others.  Thanks for responding.

You know, these things might not happen at a site designated specifically for motorhome use.  Not trying to change your mind, just saying.  A designated site might not change anything.

Anybody else like to enlighten me?  I'm anxious to learn.


----------



## kimbowbill

maureenandtom said:


> That's ok, I understand.
> 
> I think maybe you underestimate your persuasive powers though and my voice was added and so were a few others.  Thanks for responding.
> 
> You know, these things might not happen at a site designated specifically for motorhome use.  Not trying to change your mind, just saying.  A designated site might not change anything.
> 
> Anybody else like to enlighten me?  I'm anxious to learn.



I think this is a positive move though, it is a step in the right direction, but £10 a night? and then to pay parking for day, so your probaly talking £15, people are just going to park on street then go down in day, its not really solved the problem, i think if they charged £5 i would be happy to pay that and then pay parking the next day as this is what i have done in the past. It will be interesting to see what happens


----------



## Rubbertramp

maureenandtom said:


> My views are pretty transparent about the Scottish signs.   I don't want to muddy the waters in this thread but I resent the public being divided into classes.  One class knows the signs are rubbish and gets away with it, another class is frightened and willigly or unwillingly obeys them.  The first class wants to keep that status quo because the alternative might be worse.   This means that the first want to keep their privilege at the expense of the second.  I don't like the immorality of being in the first class.
> 
> 
> The quotation is attributed to Thomas Jefferson but I think he must have been thinking of something more weighty than parking signs:    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."



Therin lies the problem....one little word. Those who are too frightened to defy an authority's pettiness need to be reassured and educated so that they can realise that parking near a NOP sign isn't going to kill them.....it's not a hanging offence, in fact it's not even an offence at all (bar defiance of a TRO). Then again, the more people who give in to fear the more room for those of us who are untethered by this emotion.

Applies to all other aspects of life too.


----------



## runnach

I understand the concern that perhaps after a trial period ......everywhere is off limits, and perhaps in Scarboroughs case .....the dedicated spot is the p and r at seamer as an example....miles from the attraction.


The difference I believe between a french aire and what is being proposed, is that the French Aires are generally cheaper ....and offer facilities and are normally within walking distance of the attraction.

Furthermore, there are still other places to park in a French town , and generally you will be left alone,there is a different attitude mindset.
I think there is suspicion that Scarborough., and the others are appeasing a situation and not embracing the spirit that the French do..
For this reason I too have reservations...more along the lines of appeasement rather than our authorities buying into the benefits.....

I doesn't see anything I recall in the minutes that indicated there was benefit.....more a tragic management meeting
Channa


----------



## kimbowbill

Hark at you two, bet your sat side bi side tapping away on keyboard, bet your aving a right ol laugh arnt ya,


----------



## Rubbertramp

kimbowbill said:


> Hark at you two, bet your sat side bi side tapping away on keyboard, bet your aving a right ol laugh arnt ya,



Not tonight kid....I've locked him in his cage.....he's been a bad lad!


----------



## runnach

Indeed bad, painted signs in me best English all over his plaster...

Not on a wall oh no, the one on his arm...funny as owt...watching the rubbery one try and type wiv one finger.

He will be popular in Glasgow next week.....not......



Channa


----------



## kimbowbill

channa said:


> Indeed bad, painted signs in me best English all over his plaster...
> 
> Not on a wall oh no, the one on his arm...funny as owt...watching the rubbery one try and type wiv one finger.
> 
> He will be popular in Glasgow next week.....not......
> 
> 
> 
> Channa



what ya done to him? hope you dint mistake him for ya supper and took a shot at him, lol


----------



## runnach

Start new thread hijacki merchants
Channa


----------



## scampa

I also think that £10 per night just for a parking spot with no amenities is way too much.  They're probably hoping that with that price, sufficient wildcampers will be persuaded to use a nearby camp-site instead??!


----------



## runnach

scampa said:


> I also think that £10 per night just for a parking spot with no amenities is way too much.  They're probably hoping that with that price, sufficient wildcampers will be persuaded to use a nearby camp-site instead??!



Cynical but I suspect possibly a very credible interpretation.

Channa


----------



## kimbowbill

scampa said:


> I also think that £10 per night just for a parking spot with no amenities is way too much.  They're probably hoping that with that price, sufficient wildcampers will be persuaded to use a nearby camp-site instead??!



ya know what Scampa, your spot on there, i thought it but i'm too shy to say it :dance:


----------



## John H

The proof of the pudding.... If enough people think £10 (plus daytime parking fees) is a reasonable deal then the scheme will be a success. Personally, I will not be availing myself of it. But one thing is for sure - if motorhomers don't use the "facility" then they will not be diverting into any of the nearby campsites, so the short-sighted attitude of the local authority/campsite owners will do nothing to encouraging visitors to a town that depends heavily on tourism. 

People can write letters, go to meetings, try to change policy - and that is in many ways laudible - but, as Jen said, I would not want to be where there is so much negative feeling towards motorhomers. On the other hand, I feel that, as a group, we should be writing letters of support to councils like Hawick which, according to an earlier post, have dedicated free spaces for us. It is good to know that there are some sensible authorities out there who know that the tarmac we use would be used by nobody else if we weren't there and that if even a small proportion of us shop in the town then they have benefited their local community at zero cost. We learn most things by example; maybe the example set by Hawick (which is a nicer town to visit than Scarborough anyway!) will encourage others. We should certainly be encouraging them. I will be writing - I hope that an "official" letter can be sent by Admin on our behalf.


----------



## Deleted member 967

We are curently parked on a car park near Marazion in Cornwall.  Hard level surface, Nice sea views over Mounts Bay and to St Michaels Mount.  Penzance down the coast in walking distance (1.5 miles) Morrisons for cheep fuel and provisions (0.5 miles) Cost £1 (for up to 24 hours parking) Pay & Display 08:00 to 18:00  FOC overnight.  No problems overnighting apart from trains behind hooting for the level crossing.  There were very few trains overnight.

There are public toilets a very short walk away on the coastal path, with a water tap. 

At £10 I would rather go the a CL/CS.

John


----------



## AndyC

*Hawick*



John H said:


> On the other hand, I feel that, as a group, we should be writing letters of support to councils like Hawick which, according to an earlier post, have dedicated free spaces for us. It is good to know that there are some sensible authorities out there who know that the tarmac we use would be used by nobody else if we weren't there and that if even a small proportion of us shop in the town then they have benefited their local community at zero cost. We learn most things by example; maybe the example set by Hawick (which is a nicer town to visit than Scarborough anyway!) will encourage others. We should certainly be encouraging them. I will be writing - I hope that an "official" letter can be sent by Admin on our behalf.


It was instigated by the Hawick Welcome Initiative, see: Hawick Welcome Initiative
I understand they even have volunteers on site during the day to welcome campervans and provide information about the town.

AndyC


----------



## Somelier

Slightly off topic - I belong to a CCC DA which has had a regular holiday site on a farmer's field just outside Llangollen. This year, the meet was targeted by thieves who stole gas bottles, generators (causing considerable damage to one person's car) and unbelievably, the drive shaft from a Landrover!

The decision was made to close the meet immediately, since no one felt safe and this site will not be used again in the foreseeable future.

We know that the Llangollen people are terribly upset about what has happened, especially as the police are not very forthcoming in their actions to discover who the culprits were.

The townsfolk and traders of Llangollen were very aware of the money we brought into the town each year. It is not just our loss, but theirs as well.


----------



## singerontour

*Blurred Economic vision...*

In these tough economic times many business owners are trying to work out the reduction in their once thriving businesses ,sadly fingers are often pointed and knees jerked in all the wrong directions! We need a complete rethink in this country on certain aspects like this in Scarborough and i suggest like many of you have , an approach like that of our American friends will work much better ,take the example of Walmart allowing limited overnight stays to motorhomes and RV's as they have done their research at the supermarket giants im sure and know the mainly middle class owners of the said vehicles spend well with them. A small price for the business to pay as the Campers tend to take up a scarcely used parking lots overnight.Like wise many of the European countries provide far more in the way of stop overs for us in return for our business.If , as we are led to beleive tourism in the UK will increase as British holiday makers find they dont have the money to go further afield ,now would be a very good time for local councils to put their thinking caps on and listen to some comon sense and indeed proven business sense !


----------



## Skibabe007

*I live in Scarborough*

Hi all.....

Scarborough council really are a strange bunch! The council is filled with arcade owners, property owners and other tourist related business owners. Some of their ideas often reflects their wish to keep others out of their long held monopoly, which many times actually damages the local economy. 

I often see many motorhomes using the Scarborough coast line For overnight camping and i've never seen anyone have any problems but who knows with our council?

Keep coming guys and spending you very welcome hard earned money because us genuine Scarborough residents really appreciate you!

Park, Sleep and be Happy!!


----------



## Deleted member 21686

Skibabe007 said:


> Hi all.....
> 
> Scarborough council really are a strange bunch! The council is filled with arcade owners, property owners and other tourist related business owners. Some of their ideas often reflects their wish to keep others out of their long held monopoly, which many times actually damages the local economy.
> 
> I often see many motorhomes using the Scarborough coast line For overnight camping and i've never seen anyone have any problems but who knows with our council?
> 
> Keep coming guys and spending you very welcome hard earned money because us genuine Scarborough residents really appreciate you!
> 
> Park, Sleep and be Happy!!



Good post.
It's not just Scarborough though many are short sighted.

Tenby in Pembroke is terrible you are almost afraid to drive into the town.


----------



## scampa

Skibabe007 said:


> Hi all.....
> 
> *Scarborough council really are a strange bunch! The council is filled with arcade owners, property owners and other tourist related business owners. Some of their ideas often reflects their wish to keep others out of their long held monopoly, which many times actually damages the local economy. *
> 
> I often see many motorhomes using the Scarborough coast line For overnight camping and i've never seen anyone have any problems but who knows with our council?
> 
> Keep coming guys and spending you very welcome hard earned money because us genuine Scarborough residents really appreciate you!
> 
> Park, Sleep and be Happy!!



I hope those views are made public in the local newspapers and media around Scarborough?  A lot of people suspect that is part of the problem, but has it been publicised, and if so, what have been the responses and reactions from the council or residents?


----------



## runnach

scampa said:


> I hope those views are made public in the local newspapers and media around Scarborough?  A lot of people suspect that is part of the problem, but has it been publicised, and if so, what have been the responses and reactions from the council or residents?



I am on the electoral role in filey, which falls pretty much under the remit of Scarborough I and others have in the past e mailed council, local press, questioning whether the council are serving the electorate in some of their more bizarree ideas.

I would agree with basildog, a lot of these councils can't grasp the concept motorhomers won't use sites, when the vans are self contained.

Scarborough have agreed to overnight parking provision albeit at a ludicrous cost considering no facilities are being offered..

The positive is they are prepared to give the ball a kick,...and I would like to think they are embracing an opportunity to add incremental income for Scarborough business.

I am sceptical that  what has been offered is more to manage a perceived problem...

This aire business which it isn't could be a nemesis for motorhomers rather than a help..

I hope I am wrong, and I am being cynical, however past policy encourages cynicism

Channa


----------



## maureenandtom

I've been in France for the last month but I'm back now and while away I've had one or two things forwarded to me by Scarborough Council.   

I'm not sure that anybody's really interested in Scarborough any more but I'll publish one or two things for the sake of tidiness and some of the stuff might be useful when dealing with other councils.

First then, the committee report submitted to the cabinet member responsible:  http://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/documents/s43629/12332 - Motorhomes - 20120627.pdf

Couple of other minor, but interesting things to follow.   Save making a single post too long.


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> I've been in France for the last month but I'm back now and while away I've had one or two things forwarded to me by Scarborough Council.
> 
> I'm not sure that anybody's really interested in Scarborough any more but I'll publish one or two things for the sake of tidiness and some of the stuff might be useful when dealing with other councils.
> 
> First then, the committee report submitted to the cabinet member responsible:  http://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/documents/s43629/12332 - Motorhomes - 20120627.pdf
> 
> Couple of other minor, but interesting things to follow.   Save making a single post too long.



Interesting reading, Tom. So that's it for Scarborough then! I don't know about anybody else but I'm not paying £10 to park when I can get a CL for less than that and have electricity thrown in. I do think, however, that this report highlights the dangers of making a fuss. It is interesting that they note their previous restrictions were unenforceable (para 3.5 is particularly interesting) and so they have tightened up their definitions and given us little room for excuses. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned for the future - keep your head down and don't stir the pot. I am still fearful of the same kind of thing happening in Scotland now that they can't use deterrent signs. Ah well, there's always Europe - and its warmer!


----------



## groyne

I agree with John. 

Scarborough Council are trying to impose a curfew on Motorcaravans In certain areas between the hours of 6:30pm and 8:30am. So what happens to those of us that park up for a few hours during the curfew times? Personally I've fished and surfed in the area for years but never stayed overnight. But because of my choice of vehicle am I now barred?

I think the outcome will be E5 on the Councils Consequence Matrix, well for Motorhome owners anyway.


----------



## Smaug

Probably P-ing in the wind, bt I have sent the folloing e-mail to Scarborough council (via teh e-mail address of the report. Please consider sending something similar yourselves, the more the merrier, it may help them realise what a silly response it is to a perceived problem that isn't.



> Dear Stuart,
> 
> I have read your report on Motorhome parking & I am amazed by your shortsighted response to this perceived problem of Tourism. I understood your post was set up to encourage visitors rather than ban them! May I make a few relevant comments to help you think this through more logically rather than just having a knee-jerk response to complaints from people who do not appear to understand the bigger picture.
> 
> 1/ Motorhomes are not cheap to buy or hire, consequently the people in them will not be without resources.
> 
> 2/ They need to eat, so must buy fresh food daily and/ or eat at local restaurants & pubs, we do not only eat from tins!!!
> 
> 3/ The vehicles use quite a lot of fuel including gas cylinders and these need to be replenished while travelling,
> 
> 4/ People on holiday are there to enjoy themselves & will visit local atractions & spend money (that's what tourists do!)
> 
> 5/ Vans are self-contained in terms of waste (including toilets) so should not be leaving litter or waste water - and there are existing bye-laws to deal with such issues anyway, should they arise.
> 
> 6/ Your proposed price for parking (£10/night) is significantly higher than many small Certified  sites which provide facilities like fresh water, toilet emptying & electric hook-ups, so why would anyone pay more for less?
> 
> 7/ In what way do Motorhomes parked overnight in generally empty car parks consitute a nuisance or deny anyone else access?
> 
> 8/ Currently, opinion on the Internet Motorhome forums I frequent is that we are not welcome in Scarborough & we will simply go elsewhere to spend our money. Hawick, for example actively encourage us to visit & offer free overnight parking, together with "Welcome" volunteers giving out tourist info packs. Guess where I would rather visit!!
> 
> 9/ Banning people from certain roads means that they cannot even stay at the B&B's there and being unable to park off road in a carpark or near the beach means you will also lose MH based daytrippers as well as overnighters.  We are very unlikely to even use the local camp site if we cannot drive into the beach areas for the day.
> 
> So, in short, you wish to ban Motorhomes from the more desirable parts of your town, but that will simply drive us away, along with all our spend in local shops, garages & attractions. You obviously have far more visitors than you need & a thriving economy, so will not miss us. That is sad, but I certainly will not go anywhere that my money is not welcome.
> 
> Yours very sincerely,
> Steve Kean, a Motorhome owning pensioner.


----------



## Firefox

Did you see the consequences box in his risk matrix. What a load of complete bollox it was:

Risk: "Car Park overnight usage by motorcaravans increases significantly to the detriment of providers of the facility and other car park users"

Just how do overnight stays by vans  impact other car park users who are not likely to be there in the night anyway?  Do they want to create more open space for the cruiser and boy racing users :lol-053: 

And during the day the motorcaravans occupy spaces just the same as any other parked vehicle by paying the fee or not as the case may be. If they take two spaces they buy two tickets. 

The whole thing smacks of clutching at straws to provide trumped up reasons to satisfy local caravan park owners whose facilities we would never be patronising anyway.


----------



## kenjones

Firefox said:


> Did you see the consequences box in his risk matrix. What a load of complete bollox it was:
> 
> Risk: "Car Park overnight usage by motorcaravans increases significantly to the detriment of providers of the facility and other car park users"
> 
> Just how do overnight stays by vans  impact other car park users who are not likely to be there in the night anyway?  Do they want to create more open space for the cruiser and boy racing users :lol-053:
> 
> And during the day the motorcaravans occupy spaces just the same as any other parked vehicle by paying the fee or not as the case may be. If they take two spaces they buy two tickets.
> 
> The whole thing smacks of clutching at straws to provide trumped up reasons to satisfy local caravan park owners whose facilities we would never be patronising anyway.



I do not support or agree with Scarborough council. As a one time regular visitor to the resort, Summer and Winter I have already found other places to visit and won't be going back any time soon.
On the question of the risk assesment you quote this was given a low risk category number 1 rating indicating that they didn't expect a heavy demand on the car parks and the proposals would not have a negative impact on the town.
Like many others on here I think Scarborough council are a pretty short sighted bunch and are actually turning trade away.
I have spent a lot of money in the town over the years but as I said I won't be back. Who's loss?


----------



## groyne

> Please consider sending something similar yourselves



I've already sent an Email asking how it affects those who are just parking for a few hours and are not overnighting. Also asked if comercial vans would be included.

Forgot to ask about people sleeping in cars.


----------



## Yogihughes

SO!

Is Scarborough a "no-go" area now for all MHs/Campervans/Stealth Vans et al?


----------



## maureenandtom

I feel I've got to reply to a little of this.

Scarborough is not a no go area for motorhomes.   They have taken the first step to providing a continental style dedicated parking place which we call an Aire - whether it is that or not.   It's a trial for a year and there are no services provided other than a parking space.  Most people applaud when councils take this first step.  We do not (though we sometimes do) and I'd still like to know why.

They have got the price badly wrong - and maybe the location too, but I don't know about that.

I'm pleased that Smaug has written to the council urging them to reconsider the pricing policy and I'd like more to to do so - but not if you don't want to see continental style Aires provided in the UK.   If you don't want Aires, then you don't, but don't blame Scarborough for getting it wrong initially - especially if all they've got wrong is the price.   Tell them about it.   I did.

I received this reponse from Councillor Tim Lawn who is the chairman of the Traffic Group making the recommendations.   He answered:

_Thankyou for your message. I am pleased you are with us in wanting the pilot to be a success.Whilst listening to the concerns of residents we have also taken the views of yourself and other motorhome users into account.

We welcome your input and are trying to work with both residents and motorhome users, to ensure you are always welcome and can enjoy the area and amenitie

I can assure you there is NO smoke screen and we really want this pilot to succeed for all concerned.

*Regarding pricing, i feel it fair to say that enforcement will be a key part in making the pilot a success and our recommendation regarding charging reflects the cost associated with this*.The final decision will be taken by the relevant Cabinet member.
_

The bold is my emphasis.  This proposed Aire is for off-street parking;  on-street parking is the responsibility of a different council - North Yorks.  I haven't asked why Scarborough would need to charge for enforcement which is the responsibility of North Yorks.


----------



## kimbowbill

Well i am glad they are charging £10 per night to sit in a car park and banning MH's from the sea front, because next year they will be looking at how they can bring us back, and it will be all open again, i wont be going that is for sure, they can all sod off


----------



## maureenandtom

kimbowbill said:


> Well i am glad they are charging £10 per night to sit in a car park and banning MH's from the sea front, because next year they will be looking at how they can bring us back, and it will be all open again, i wont be going that is for sure, they can all sod off



Yes.   And that's a legitimate protest.  I support you.  Withdraw our custom.  I support those who do that.

If we don't like it, don't use it until they put their tail between their legs and give us a free welcome on our own terms.   We're the customers after all.  

Just out of interest though.  Do you ever pay for Aires in France?  Bit hypocritical if you do.

I've just come back  from France this weekend and I've been used to free Aires near Roscoff for pretty well 20 years.   For those who use the same ferry - the Aire at the port (St Barbe?) is closed and the service point demolished.   The other Aire at Roscoff (Laber ?) is still not blocked off but the service point has been demolished and the sign saying that it is an Aire has disappeared though vans are still using it.   The car park at the ferry port itself is no longer signed as long term for caravans etc and I think is now just used by ferry passengers either waiting for or landing from a ferry.    The previously free Aire at St Pol de Leon is now 5 Euros for 24 hours or 3 Euros for 12 hours.   The private Aire at Santec is free for one night and chargeable (not sure but I think 5 Euros) per night after that.

The Aire at Leclerc in St Pol is still being used by campervans for services and parking is free but few seem to use it overnight.

Scarborough have got the price wrong.   Blackpool got the price wrong too and I've just seen a thread here showing that their Aire hasn't yet solved their problems.  

This is what Councillor Chance wrote to me:

_I for my part want this to work, but I also want to stop 24 hour, and indeed, longer stay parking on our seafronts and prime parking places, which is what is happening at present.


I have no problem with motor homes parking on the seafront between 8 am and 11 pm and the action taken by the Council will continue to permit this. 


I do, however, have an issue with overnight and longer stay parking on our seafronts and prime parking places. I recently spent a week checking this West Cliff in Whitby and regularly found in excess of 30 Motor homes parked there at 07:00 am in the morning, the vast majority with curtains drawn and the occupants still sleeping. A number of these vehicles stayed in the same position for periods well in excess of 24 hours, indeed in a number of cases for up to a week without moving a wheel.

_


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> Just out of interest though.  Do you ever pay for Aires in France?  Bit hypocritical if you do.



I have to disagree with this. Most aires in France are free but those that charge, charge a reasonable price (less than 5 euros on average). For less than the price that Scarborough are charging you can get full facilities, including hook-up. In fact there are still many aires in France that provide free hook-up. It is not hypocritical to ask for a fair price - and if you can get a lot more for less on a CL (and you can) then Scarborough are not charging a fair price.


----------



## maureenandtom

John H said:


> I have to disagree with this. Most aires in France are free but those that charge, charge a reasonable price (less than 5 euros on average). For less than the price that Scarborough are charging you can get full facilities, including hook-up. In fact there are still many aires in France that provide free hook-up. It is not hypocritical to ask for a fair price - and if you can get a lot more for less on a CL (and you can) then Scarborough are not charging a fair price.



I don't disagree with you there.

Scarborough have got the price wrong.   

Going to do something about it?


----------



## John H

maureenandtom said:


> I don't disagree with you there.
> 
> Scarborough have got the price wrong.
> 
> Going to do something about it?



Yes, go to France rather than Scarborough! :lol-053:


----------



## maureenandtom

John H said:


> Yes, go to France rather than Scarborough! :lol-053:



A legitimate protest.  Withdraw your custom.    Have a nice time.


----------



## kimbowbill

maureenandtom said:


> Yes.   And that's a legitimate protest.  I support you.  Withdraw our custom.  I support those who do that.
> 
> If we don't like it, don't use it until they put their tail between their legs and give us a free welcome on our own terms.   We're the customers after all.
> 
> Just out of interest though.  Do you ever pay for Aires in France?  Bit hypocritical if you do.
> 
> I've just come back  from France this weekend and I've been used to free Aires near Roscoff for pretty well 20 years.   For those who use the same ferry - the Aire at the port (St Barbe?) is closed and the service point demolished.   The other Aire at Roscoff (Laber ?) is still not blocked off but the service point has been demolished and the sign saying that it is an Aire has disappeared though vans are still using it.   The car park at the ferry port itself is no longer signed as long term for caravans etc and I think is now just used by ferry passengers either waiting for or landing from a ferry.    The previously free Aire at St Pol de Leon is now 5 Euros for 24 hours or 3 Euros for 12 hours.   The private Aire at Santec is free for one night and chargeable (not sure but I think 5 Euros) per night after that.
> 
> The Aire at Leclerc in St Pol is still being used by campervans for services and parking is free but few seem to use it overnight.
> 
> Scarborough have got the price wrong.   Blackpool got the price wrong too and I've just seen a thread here showing that their Aire hasn't yet solved their problems.
> 
> This is what Councillor Chance wrote to me:
> 
> _I for my part want this to work, but I also want to stop 24 hour, and indeed, longer stay parking on our seafronts and prime parking places, which is what is happening at present.
> 
> 
> I have no problem with motor homes parking on the seafront between 8 am and 11 pm and the action taken by the Council will continue to permit this.
> 
> 
> I do, however, have an issue with overnight and longer stay parking on our seafronts and prime parking places. I recently spent a week checking this West Cliff in Whitby and regularly found in excess of 30 Motor homes parked there at 07:00 am in the morning, the vast majority with curtains drawn and the occupants still sleeping. A number of these vehicles stayed in the same position for periods well in excess of 24 hours, indeed in a number of cases for up to a week without moving a wheel.
> 
> _



No I don't go to France,  and have no intentions of doing so, my sister has a villa there, been a few times but i don't like that wrong side o road thingy, its bad enough driving on right side o road ne mind t'other :dance:


----------



## groyne

> A number of these vehicles stayed in the same position for periods well in excess of 24 hours, indeed in a number of cases for up to a week without moving a wheel.



These Motorhomers are the problem, If you want to stay in one place any length of time then you should use a site or rent a holiday cottage.


----------



## Firefox

These holiday cottages are the problem. They stay there 24/7 for decades with no intention of moving anywhere!


----------



## Smaug

groyne said:


> These Motorhomers are the problem, If you want to stay in one place any length of time then you should use a site or rent a holiday cottage.



I agree with that! For me, the whole point of motorhomes is the one night & move on style of travel. So all they need to do is forbid stopping more than one night! 

I really don't get the issue with overnighting - everyone is in bed, so who is inconvenienced? The only inconvenience is during the day time when tripper cars can't come in & spend - yet no-one is complaining about that!!! How daft is that? 

They really haven't thought thro their problem, yet think they can apply a "solution"! Bonkers innit?

If it's long term parking that's the issue, the standard solution (in all town centres) is parking meters. Make sure there is a regular turnover of vehicles & occupants to maximise throughput & revenues. So, charge 50p/hour in daytime, which is not unaffordable & have 10pm - 8pm free. Or even charge 50p/hr 24/7 - that's 6 quid for all day or all night & 12 quid for 24 hours. It's simple, it applies to everyone & it encourages people to not overstay their welcome as well as generating some income (less the cost of policing it).


----------



## scampa

If they only charged for the actual time that you were asleep, some members on the "Who's Awake?" thread would only pay a few pence per night, and Oldish Hippy could stay most nights for free!!    

I'm not going, cos Scarb'ros not fair,
Parsley sage rosemary and thyme,
Remember me to those who live there,
They once loved this money of mine....


----------



## maingate

Scabbyborough Council probably spent a lot of time and effort into a rethink of the motorhoming 'problem'. Lets face it, a few motorhomers took the wotsit and overstayed their welcome, made a mess and did the rest of us a disservice.

Even with the assistance offered by Tom and Gerry, oops, I mean Maureen and Tom, they have still come up with a package that is not very appealing to the average motorhomer. They probably gave no weight to the situation from the m/homers perspective and consequently got it wrong.

They are the lawmakers (byelaws that is) and could have set it up almost anyway they wanted. I believe that they have lost a great opportunity to appease everyone and still attract us to their fair city (well, you know what I mean).

I might still do a one nighter in the area (out of season) but as for Scarborough itself, definitely not.


----------



## Deleted member 3802

Benefits on sea is an hour up the road for me so we go maybe 3 or 4 weekends a year :sleep-040: the way we do it these plans will make no difference apart from the friday night :cheers: the landlord of the lord nelson will loose out on the sale of 6/8 pints of nigerian  larger and 3 or 4 halfs of fosters,other than that it will be the same,i just hope they do enforce :hammer: the no over nighting to get rid of the spoilers that have appeared there this last 2 to 3 years :scared:
The mention of the cut off road in cayton bay was a suprize that will upset the big rv's


----------



## bopper

I have e-mailed Scarborough Council with my comments telling them that I shall take my money elsewhere in future.
I suggest we all do the same.


----------



## Smaug

Thank you Bopper, that or a letter is the only sensible action we can take at this stage. A Boycott will the natural consequence of them ignoring us. However, we are only a very small percentage of all motorhomers. Hirers will just never know what hit them.


----------



## Northerner

Scarborough gets hundreds of thousands of visitors every year so I'm sure that the council will be absolutely crapping itself worrying about forty or fifty motorhomers boycotting the place! Perhaps their logic is that people who are too tight to use sites will also be too tight to use restaurants and, whilst that's not true in all cases, who can blame them when they see us eating our meals in our 'vans?

As usual a few spoil it for the rest of us and it can't be helped by members here who bleat about campsite owners on the council, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and even if there was a site owner on the council, he would have to recuse himself in such debates. Traders will obviously think that people who arrive in cars are the better ones to have on the car parks, as they will spend money in restaurants, whereas those with all the facilities on board are less likely to do so.

Before we all start bleating about actions such as this, perhaps we should start asking ourselves what has moved the council to act in the first place?


----------



## Smaug

I see your point, Northerner, but how do we, a small group of people influence the behaviour of "dodgy" MH users? We promote good behaviour on this site & even publish a list of "Do's & Don'ts", but there is no way we can reach the selfish minority or change their behaviour. 

I was brought up as a Scout to "leave nothing behind but your thanks" but I live in a country lane where I am constanly picking up litter thrown out of passing cars, so many people today are just utterly thoughtless about the consequences of their actions. 

BTW, would you approach a litterer or long-term stayer to point out the error of their ways? I am in my 60's recovering from an Achilles Tendon rupture, so couldn't even run away if they turned aggressive, which is sadly so often a response by people caught out doing something they know is wrong.

If Scarborough made their Aire free it would cost them very little (probably save them more from the cost of not policing it!), encourage visitors & not harm anyone. What's wrong with that solution?


----------



## maureenandtom

Northerner said:


> Scarborough gets hundreds of thousands of visitors every year so I'm sure that the council will be absolutely crapping itself worrying about forty or fifty motorhomers boycotting the place! Perhaps their logic is that people who are too tight to use sites will also be too tight to use restaurants and, whilst that's not true in all cases, who can blame them when they see us eating our meals in our 'vans?
> 
> As usual a few spoil it for the rest of us and it can't be helped by members here who bleat about campsite owners on the council, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and even if there was a site owner on the council, he would have to recuse himself in such debates. Traders will obviously think that people who arrive in cars are the better ones to have on the car parks, as they will spend money in restaurants, whereas those with all the facilities on board are less likely to do so.
> 
> Before we all start bleating about actions such as this, perhaps we should start asking ourselves what has moved the council to act in the first place?



Notherner's right.  There is, however, at least one interested member and he has declared his interest and if he was influential, he was influential behind the scenes.  If he was.   He would have been the cabinet member responsible for this but his duties have been taken over by another councillor.  Councillor Penny somebody or other.

And we know what has moved the council.   It is well documented.  It began with the title of this thread - "Scarborough Traders Complain" and it was followed up by a largish number of letters - on more than one occasion - from residents in Scarborough.  The council are responding to public opinion in the town.   Those who think it is inadvisable to stir up the council would be best asking local residents to cease doing so.   All this is well documented here but, unfortunately, spread over several different threads.

We are lucky that they are taking the continental approach.   Yes, they have got the price wrong.   They, I guess, are concentrating on control and enforcement;  the stick rather than the carrot of providing services to attract us.   We should not be castigating them;  we should be encouraging them to continue to get things right.   

All this whinging isn't very productive.  Yes, we want Aires.  No we don't want Aires.   Yes, we do if they're free.  Not very productive.

In my opinion, they are moving the right way but they have the pricing wrong.  Off the top of my head, I don't want to go looking up things we should know, Blackpool have got the price wrong and local press is still getting complaints - it was in a thread here; Swanage (? something about £20?), Dawlish Warren began well but they got frightened by the numbers and withdrew the facility?  All moving the right way but getting something so simple so wrong.   The price.

Sometimes I think we just like whingeing.


----------



## maureenandtom

Smaug said:


> I see your point, Northerner, but how do we, a small group of people influence the behaviour of "dodgy" MH users? We promote good behaviour on this site & even publish a list of "Do's & Don'ts", but there is no way we can reach the selfish minority or change their behaviour.
> . . .
> 
> If Scarborough made their Aire free it would cost them very little (probably save them more from the cost of not policing it!), encourage visitors & not harm anyone. What's wrong with that solution?



Absolutely nothing wrong with it.   Maybe you could put that question and suggestion to one of the members responsible.  My suggestion is that you ignore the council officers since they're now out of the recommendations game and into implementation.  My suggestion would be to ask the Chairman of the Traffic Group - Councillor Tim Lawn.   Cllr.Tim.Lawn@scarborough.gov.uk

I shouldn't think he'd respond to any abusive emails but, you never know, he might respond to suggestions put in a friendly, constuctive manner.  He has said he welcomes input and wants the scheme to be a success.  I think he's probably sincere.


----------



## scenictraveller

any email sent with an abusive and language tone to a .gov.uk address will be filltered out by council 
SPAM FILTERS.

I have a .gov.uk address


----------



## maureenandtom

scenictraveller said:


> any email sent with an abusive and language tone to a .gov.uk address will be filltered out by council
> SPAM FILTERS.
> 
> I have a .gov.uk address



Quite.  

Perhaps the spam filter might not filter out terms such as Benefits on Sea, Scabbyborough and the like.   I didn't really mean that anyone here would use violent threats or swearing.  Just that a recommendation for "I'll treat you with respect and you treat me with respect" tone to any emails we might send.

On reflection.  The decision on pricing is now in the hands of the Cabinet Member;  perhaps any emails should now go to her.


----------



## Smaug

Doh, I just sent my reasoned suggestion (including probable income estimate & cost of policing) to the e-mail address you gave earlier! Kindly post the new address & I will forward her a copy too. Below is the text of what I sent FYI, I trust you will agree it is not abusive.



> Dear Tim.
> 
> I am a motorhome owner & heard about your issues on an internet Forum (Wild Camping). I understand that rows of vans parked in prime spots for days on end are not an attractive proposition, however I would like to remind you that these people need to eat, buy food & fuel etc. Motorhomes are not cheap to buy, rent or run, so mostly the people in them will be relatively prosperous. They are attracted to your town like any other visitor by your many attractions & will  want to sample them, we do not live soley on tins so they will be using local shops, pubs, restaurants, leisure attractions & garages.
> 
> As with all car parking problems, I believe you need to maximise throughput & limit long stay, low spend visitors in favour of people who stop a short time & enjoy local shopping. Perhaps something along the lines of parking meters could be used, 50p/hr with a max of 12 hours would allow people to stay either a day or a night, but not both.
> 
> Your Motorhome dedicated car parks along the lines of the French Aires are an excellent idea, but you need to attract visitors, not repel them. £10/night is higher than is normally charged for a small Certified site with water, toilet disposal & possibly an electric hook-up. So why would anyone prefer a carpark with absolutely no facilities? I wouldn't pay to go there. But I might use it if it was free. The benefits to you of making it free are that you will get more viisitors to spend their money & you will significantly reduce the costs of policing it. Your proposed £10 cahrge will generate very little income as few vans will pay that for a stay in a car park AND you will need to pay someone to police it.
> 
> Probable income - say 2 vans a night for 50 nights a year (about £1000)
> 
> Probable cost of policing 6 months salary at min wage (ignoring the staff overheads!) = £6000
> 
> You will need 6 vans a night for 100 nights just to cover the basic salary cost, surely even you can see that that is hopelessly optimistic at such a high price.
> 
> Good luck with your experiment, however it turns out, Steve Kean, Motorhome (& boat) owner.


----------



## runnach

First paragraph you shot yourself in the foot......lines of motorhomes are not attractive...and nothing in your letter would persuade me to reconsider the situation..

As a resident of Scarborough filey to be precise when I can be bothered
Channa


----------



## runnach

Smaug said:


> Doh, I just sent my reasoned suggestion (including probable income estimate & cost of policing) to the e-mail address you gave earlier! Kindly post the new address & I will forward her a copy too. Below is the text of what I sent FYI, I trust you will agree it is not abusive.



sorry I re read ...the post apologise


----------



## Smaug

channa said:


> First paragraph you shot yourself in the foot......lines of motorhomes are not attractive...and nothing in your letter would persuade me to reconsider the situation..
> 
> As a resident of Scarborough filey to be precise when I can be bothered
> Channa



So what are you doing to help - or do you just pee on the efforts of others?

TBH I am damn unlikely to ever go anywhere near Scarborough, but I can see the benefit of responding to banning activities as they could ultimately affect us all, everywhere. I'm surprised you don't see the benefit of starting a letter (or conversation) by empathising before offering positive criticism. But then your comment above is entirely negative, so perhaps that's the best you can offer.


----------



## runnach

Smaug said:


> So what are you doing to help - or do you just pee on the efforts of others?
> 
> TBH I am damn unlikely to ever go anywhere near Scarborough, but I can see the benefit of responding to banning activities as they could ultimately affect us all, everywhere. I'm surprised you don't see the benefit of starting a letter (or conversation) by empathising before offering positive criticism. But then your comment above is entirely negative, so perhaps that's the best you can offer.



Firstly possibly due to time warp......I did apologise having mis interpreted your post.

What have I done to address Scarborough council...

Have a traul through the posts ...you will find several e mails and letters to the council and local press.

Regards 

Channa


----------



## canalwheeler

Am I about the only one here who doesn't like Scarborough anyway?

i'd much rather be up in the Wolds somewhere quiet.

Tone


----------



## maureenandtom

I think that's a pretty good attempt.   Truly I don't know who it should now be sent to and quite probably Cllr Lawn is the best bet.   He's the chairman of the committee making the recommendations and the Cabinet Member will, probably, be very dependent on his recommendations.   But, you makes your choice and lives with it!  Just because you write to  one donesn't mean you can't write to another.   Somewhere in this thread I provided a list of all the committee members.   Post 175.

The Cabinet Member is Councillor Penny Marsden and I don't know her email address but a good guess is Cllr.Penny.Marsden@scarborough.gov.uk

I made similar calculations to yours, maybe a bit more detailed, and I sent them to all the members of the committee and a few more besides.   My effort was aimed at making the council aware that we are a resource who should be courted as an attractive asset rather than an evil who needs to be tolerated.  You're right about the lines of campervans not being attractive and that forms a big part of the residents' complaints.   The council think that providing an Aire will cure that problem for them.  I think so too.  Not all, but in my opinion, most, wild campers will use an Aire if it is attractive to them and pricing is a part of that attraction.

TBear made some good arguments.   A copy of them is in Post 215.

At the very least, this Council is making an effort to provide an Aire on the continental model.   I think they have a half way chance of it being successful and if they can just get the pricing right they have a good chance of it being successful.

Councils seem to be obsessed with control.   They even use the words  "Civil Enforcement" and it must be hard for them to think like the businessmen they probably are in civilian life and they perhaps find it difficult to think of themselves selling a product - attracting business.  

You can now count yourself as one of those making an effort - though those who stand on the sidelines and criticise can be useful too.  

Sort of.  I suppose.  Maddening a lot of the time though.


----------



## maureenandtom

canalwheeler said:


> Am I about the only one here who doesn't like Scarborough anyway?
> 
> i'd much rather be up in the Wolds somewhere quiet.
> 
> Tone



Yes, I'm sure you would.  But does that mean you want to see councils not providing Aires?   You might want to use one some day.  Empty the loo maybe?  Get some water perhaps?   Park up once in a while with like-minded people? 

You wouldn't want to stop others having them, would you?  Just because you're not bothered about one in Scarborough?    You might love having one somewhere else and one here could be used as an example, maybe?     Be a pity if there wasn't one anywhere just because you're not bothered about having one here.


----------



## scenictraveller

i dont camp in towns/citys or villages loch etive is an exception due to the fact ur 2 miles from the town,
but mostly wont go near one,will buy supplies fuel food beer but wont stay there.

i thought wildcamping was about senery not built up areas and parking next to a pay and display sign,

i think most of you are missing the point and only have yourselfs to blame.

you say you pay 30k plus for a motorhome and think its ur right to park it where you want.

scarbrough is a town i went to in the 90s not been back since,and have no reason to go there.

linconshire was there last year was made to feel as welcome as afart in a space suit.

my point wild means wild not seasidy towns that have the hussle and bussle of tourists.


----------



## runnach

I promised myself I but I relent
Scarborough is a beautiful area that extends well beyond the sea front and battleships in peasholm park...visit hackness...burniston cloughton..a different vista and 25 min from fish and chips or a jaconellisl ice cream
Hang on that's spending money in Scarborough

I am convinced Scarborough council see this aire has a solution to what is a perceived and in some ways actual problem in the resort.

I see no evidence that they are identifying an opportunity to gain incremental income for their resort and electorate

So who do I speak to e mail....on the basis I have a Scarborough address maybe take note..

Channa


----------



## Robmac

I don't think anybody on the forum is arrogant enough to say that they will pay 30k for a Motorhome and demand that they can stay where they want to.


----------



## maureenandtom

channa said:


> I promised myself I but I relent
> Scarborough is a beautiful area that extends well beyond the sea front and battleships in peasholm park...visit hackness...burniston cloughton..a different vista and 25 min from fish and chips or a jaconellisl ice cream
> Hang on that's spending money in Scarborough
> 
> I am convinced Scarborough council see this aire has a solution to what is a perceived and in some ways actual problem in the resort.
> 
> I see no evidence that they are identifying an opportunity to gain incremental income for their resort and electorate
> 
> So who do I speak to e mail....on the basis I have a Scarborough address maybe take note..
> 
> Channa



I suppose it should really be to whoever is your local councillor but Councillor Lawn is probably a good bet.  For myself I'd blanket the whole committee - they're in Post 215, I think.   You're right, there is no evidence that they've taken on board that money is to be made from us.  But that was my main thrust and it would be good tell them again.  I made my calculations based mainly on what I spend but I looked at, for example, *****'s accounts when he published them and if I knew you'd put your figures in a post anywhere, I'd have used yours too.  I also looked at the numbers of vans residents were complaining about and multiplied them out.  It added up to a substantial sum over a year.

I see it's starred out the name.   Some people have published their trip expenses and I used them to modify my own.


----------



## maureenandtom

scenictraveller said:


> i dont camp in towns/citys or villages loch etive is an exception due to the fact ur 2 miles from the town,
> but mostly wont go near one,will buy supplies fuel food beer but wont stay there.
> 
> i thought wildcamping was about senery not built up areas and parking next to a pay and display sign,
> 
> i think most of you are missing the point and only have yourselfs to blame.
> 
> you say you pay 30k plus for a motorhome and think its ur right to park it where you want.
> 
> scarbrough is a town i went to in the 90s not been back since,and have no reason to go there.
> 
> linconshire was there last year was made to feel as welcome as afart in a space suit.
> 
> my point wild means wild not seasidy towns that have the hussle and bussle of tourists.



Pretty well the same as I replied to Tone.    You want them *not *to provide an Aire?   Not any council?   Not anywhere?




maureenandtom said:


> Yes, I'm sure you would.  But does that mean you want to see councils not providing Aires?   You might want to use one some day.  Empty the loo maybe?  Get some water perhaps?   Park up once in a while with like-minded people?
> 
> You wouldn't want to stop others having them, would you?  Just because you're not bothered about one in Scarborough?    You might love having one somewhere else and one here could be used as an example, maybe?     Be a pity if there wasn't one anywhere just because you're not bothered about having one here.


----------



## runnach

We are dealing with people who feel threatened by past behaviour of some and  a council who either don't or choose to understand incremental income.

A lot of vans will visit sites...never wilded and the concept doesn't appeal.

But there is a significant body of persons who do want to wild.
To be honest this is not an aire a solution to a perceived problem...perhaps heads below the parapets in hindsight was best but we now have a situation to deal with
France has Aires but it is possible to deviate away do your thing without hinderhence..
Scarborough council it seems are of the idea one place to park up everywhere else out of bounds.

That is a concern.

And manipulation down the line for a patch by the **** farm in scalby is a bigger one

I don't share your optimism, on the basis as I have stated the council see a resident problem aggrieved people not an opportunity to attract visitors who chose not to use sites.

A question worth asking is how irritant in law abiding have motorhomets been according to nyorks police records for the area.

Channa


----------



## Deleted member 2636

sagart said:


> Not sure if this is stated as a fact or speculation...but this was a problem for years in Torquay where the power of the hotel industry in guiding council policy was immense



I'm would not be surprised given the Rates they would pay


----------



## bopper

Just letting you see the e-mail from Scarborough Council in response to my complaint.




I note your comments regarding the charges proposed for motorhomes on Council Car Parks.  I should inform you that the decision to charge £10 has been referred back to our parking working group which will meet on 12th July 2012.  I will inform you of the outcome of the review after this date.



Yours Sincerely



Jane Wilson



Deputy Parking Manager

Scarborough Borough Council

Tel (01723) 383582


----------



## Smaug

I trust the referal back will include a reference to our comments, or at least the points we made! Although past experience of working in a council office does not fill me with confidence! At least you got a reply which is more than I have.


----------



## groyne

> At least you got a reply which is more than I have.



Over 2 weeks since I Emailed them and not even an acknowlegement.



> Dear Mr Clark,
> 
> having read the councils proposals on Motor caravan parking,
> 
> http://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/documents/s43629/12332%20-%20Motorhomes%20-%2020120627.pdf
> 
> could you tell me how this affects those of us who drive MotorCaravans and who park in these areas during the proposed Curfew hours but are not stopping overnight. I have fished (night time) and surfed (early morning) for years in the area between Sandsend Carpark and Whitby West pier, but now because of my vehicle of choice it looks like my hobbies in this area will be curtailed.
> 
> Also as my MotorCaravan is a modified Citroen Relay, will commercial vehicles of similar ike, such as Ford Transits, Mercedes Sprinters etc, also be barred from parking overnight?
> 
> Regards,


----------



## maureenandtom

I think this is encouraging.

The distinct impression was that this £10 charge was a done deal.   If it has been referred back to the original committee then this can only be in response to pressure from somewhere - and that is probably us.


----------



## Smaug

maureenandtom said:


> I think this is encouraging.
> 
> The distinct impression was that this £10 charge was a done deal.   If it has been referred back to the original committee then this can only be in response to pressure from somewhere - and that is probably us.



I have to say I don't normally associate common sense with Local Councils, but the simple fact that they are trying to charge more for a bare car park than is normally charged for a nice field with water & Chem emptying is hard to ignore. Lets just hope that they aren't as daft & arrogant as usual. 

It's always annoying that these things are always decided behind closed doors. So much for real democracy!


----------



## John H

Smaug said:


> It's always annoying that these things are always decided behind closed doors. So much for real democracy!



All council meetings are open to the public except for confidential issues, which are usually put to the end of the agenda and the public asked to leave. Nonetheless, I share your scepticism about the outcome of this particular meeting.


----------



## fairytooth

The idea that we are 'abusing the system' by not making use of their empty hotel rooms or crabby caravan sites in favour of our chosen leisure pursuit is truly laughable.  'The system' is obviously a comfy closed shop where competition, diversity & freedom of choice are forbidden words.

Then again, part of me hopes they carry out their threat and lose even more business by excluding us.


----------



## dodge2transit

iwm said:


> i ant got to the end of this thread yet but befor i forget to say this i will lol, i feel we are killing our hobby and some of us including me are not saying enough to the van owners that are being the problem instead of a solution, so this is how i see this, instead of us complaining about what we have lost and sending out crapy emails why dont some one start a motorcavaning league designed to tackle the bad practise of , as they call it rogue vaners and also tackle the town councils for better . cant think of the word sorry . to tackle  designated parking spaces for the likes of us. i see it like this i dont realy wish to use  campsites and if i was to  i struggle to find them at  the prise i can afford to pay as is at the moment but hoping things will change on that score soon. i also read in the clip that we are destroying there economy , i dont get that sorry i spend my money in the town im  visiting!
> if we had a league i would pay in to it faster than im doing it here on this site, thats another story  for another day for why . so who thinks this is a good idea and going to start one lol or who going to rip it to bits as scrap.
> the bikers have one its called nabds  i think and there is the caravan club they have one as they sort of are one, we have what?
> i dont wish to come across rude but time to put up or shut up so to speak sorry dont shoot me for that lol


----------



## Burtie

Every time I go to Scarborough I park on the seafront at north end then I tend to make a trip 
up to the council offices to put my views in and I always send emails aswell in the hope that one
day some of my views will be in place when I go back the year after there has been nothing yet 
as far as I know as it's been a couple of years since I visited but we can all hope can't we as one day 
they may take the hint


----------



## Northerner

fairytooth said:


> The idea that we are 'abusing the system' by not making use of their empty hotel rooms or crabby caravan sites in favour of our chosen leisure pursuit is truly laughable.  'The system' is obviously a comfy closed shop where competition, diversity & freedom of choice are forbidden words.



Yes, and they're probably responsible for the Holocaust as well. And maybe even Third-World poverty the more I think about it.


----------



## John H

Northerner said:


> Yes, and they're probably responsible for the Holocaust as well. And maybe even Third-World poverty the more I think about it.



...and there was I thinking that you'd taken on board the comments of others and calmed down in the past couple of days! :rolleyes2:


----------



## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> Every time I go to Scarborough I park on the seafront at north end then I tend to make a trip
> up to the council offices to put my views in and I always send emails aswell in the hope that one
> day some of my views will be in place when I go back the year after there has been nothing yet
> as far as I know as it's been a couple of years since I visited but we can all hope can't we as one day
> they may take the hint




but the problem is your only one man and if more were to do the same  you still only look like one man as you dont have a structure or org  backing you with connections and cash to help fight the problem your trying to stop or compromise.
if any one was to think this is a grate idea i would not use the word wild camp as this now has a stigmer behind it if this is the correct word to use, i feel that maybe  the word freedom motorcaravanning would be more appropriate.


----------



## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> but the problem is your only one man and if more were to do the same  you still only look like one man as you dont have a structure or org  backing you with connections and cash to help fight the problem your trying to stop or compromise.
> if any one was to think this is a grate idea i would not use the word wild camp as this now has a stigmer behind it if this is the correct word to use, i feel that maybe  the word freedom motorcaravanning would be more appropriate.



i know exactly what you mean still as it stands i have never been moved on from staying on the seafront
as if that was the case the yorkshire moors are not to far from scarborough there is plenty of places to stay up there and after all it is all the fun of wild camping


----------



## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> i know exactly what you mean still as it stands i have never been moved on from staying on the seafront
> as if that was the case the yorkshire moors are not to far from scarborough there is plenty of places to stay up there and after all it is all the fun of wild camping


in the name of progress and contral of the masses things do came to a end or change unless you have  a big bro to fight your corner.
thats what im trying to say here , hell  every paid member is already half way there as this site could be a good start, for example sake you know what i mean.


----------



## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> in the name of progress and contral of the masses things do came to a end or change unless you have  a big bro to fight your corner.
> thats what im trying to say here , hell  every paid member is already half way there as this site could be a good start, for example sake you know what i mean.



Sertainly but I suppose that is an argument for somebody else as I am easy come easy go 
but I don't mind reminding people of my situation if I pay for a parking space and someone 
don't like where I park they can go for a walk it's just nice to know that in that neck of the woods 
there is someone willing to help you especially when you need water or if you need batteries charging
but I couldn't really care less about Scarborough council I don't owe them anything so I think most of the
time I would preper to park away from the town centres then them living there can't complain about me
as I don't do anything wrong


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## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> Sertainly but I suppose that is an argument for somebody else as I am easy come easy go
> but I don't mind reminding people of my situation if I pay for a parking space and someone
> don't like where I park they can go for a walk it's just nice to know that in that neck of the woods
> there is someone willing to help you especially when you need water or if you need batteries charging
> but I couldn't really care less about Scarborough council I don't owe them anything so I think most of the
> time I would preper to park away from the town centres then them living there can't complain about me
> as I don't do anything wrong



dont get me wrong Burtie im not trying to start any kind of malicious argument, all im saying or trying to say is there will always be  van owners that dont care and van owners that do and van owners that will lose out cos of the problems of others , as stated befor a   org body to back us up in a tight corner would be good if  things continue to decline as they are today. it dont mater who is to blame for the decline its just happening..


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## dodge2transit

this site has for part of that as  wild camping co uk has a code of conduct to follow but thats is it, a guide and some will just ignore it any way why? ask them.
aldhragh was shut down becose they claim van owners were tiping waist clogging up the road and the road was not suitable for vans, yet i see the last time i was there non motor home vans parked on the wall and was covered in cars for as the eye could see. 
may be the reel reason for this as a friend pointed out to me was van owners had there awnings out ands deck chairs  and when cars come across to park they could not get by, also like felixstow the other  day i  pulled in to the point car park and a A class van was there parked sensibly but blocking the way with a boat. and two years befor this at filix again a chap parked  close to the statics with a geny running the hole day.
its not a camp site its a car park  and there is some things you dont do if any one reads the common sense rule this site tries to promote you will find it in here.
but some dont, even i have slip up  as well as my dogs were yapping 6 am  on a Sunday and i was also next to static i forgot but when i realised i  shut them up and moved on.


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## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> dont get me wrong Burtie im not trying to start any kind of malicious argument, all im saying or trying to say is there will always be  van owners that dont care and van owners that do and van owners that will lose out cos of the problems of others , as stated befor a   org body to back us up in a tight corner would be good if  things continue to decline as they are today. it dont mater who is to blame for the decline its just happening..



no not at all ive come across my fare share of van owners that dont care ive seen them throw their rubbish in the hedges or where ever and as i believe as i sit on scarborough seafront at times the rubbish i accumalate in my van i keep it with me i dont even shove it in the bins situated in the streets as they would be full in no time i wait untill i see a council lorry collecting waste and you are quite right other van owners should have more thought for others i will certainly keep a look out for these individuals on any of my travels and take their numbers because it is not nice to know when you pull in to a layby other vans soon pull in fdor the night but some of them dispose of their waste where ever they feel like at least for those of us who dont do it can sleep peacefully in our beds


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## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> no not at all ive come across my fare share of van owners that dont care ive seen them throw their rubbish in the hedges or where ever and as i believe as i sit on scarborough seafront at times the rubbish i accumalate in my van i keep it with me i dont even shove it in the bins situated in the streets as they would be full in no time i wait untill i see a council lorry collecting waste and you are quite right other van owners should have more thought for others i will certainly keep a look out for these individuals on any of my travels and take their numbers because it is not nice to know when you pull in to a layby other vans soon pull in fdor the night but some of them dispose of their waste where ever they feel like at least for those of us who dont do it can sleep peacefully in our beds




unless your some kind of hard nut i would not take numbers as this will lead to trouble for you, however there is a memeber on here that i was reading about and fail to remember who , that they pic up other vans owners  crap  i feel this would be better  option as if we leave it there  sooner or later we will not be aloud to park there, i did also read  from the  forum bos on here that has any one  ever been prosecuted for parking in a no over night spot, well no i have not yet  but its only time befor the high bars find there way up. clean up behind others if poss and we will least hold off the  councils from stopping us. will i follow my advise , some of the times it depends on what it is im picking up and how much.


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## maingate

Burtie said:


> no not at all ive come across my fare share of van owners that dont care ive seen them throw their rubbish in the hedges or where ever and as i believe as i sit on scarborough seafront at times the rubbish i accumalate in my van i keep it with me i dont even shove it in the bins situated in the streets as they would be full in no time i wait untill i see a council lorry collecting waste and you are quite right other van owners should have more thought for others i will certainly keep a look out for these individuals on any of my travels and take their numbers because it is not nice to know when you pull in to a layby other vans soon pull in fdor the night but some of them dispose of their waste where ever they feel like at least for those of us who dont do it can sleep peacefully in our beds



If we ever met up Burtie, you and I would get on as we feel the same way about the way we use our vans. It will not be in Scarborough though. :lol-049:


As for Dodge wanting us to get the weight of an organisation (set up by ourselves), it will never happen. Time and time again there have been calls to get together to fight against some situation (on all forums) and it never gets off the ground. It is a very good notion but it will never get off the ground.

I remember when there were hundreds of expensive brand new Fiats with gearbox problems. Someone wanted to organise a convoy to Fiat UK headquarters (along with a lot of publicity). Lots of owners said it was a great idea. Did it happen? No it did not. Luckily, sustained pressure from one man did eventually work on the 2.3 models.


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## dodge2transit

maingate said:


> As for Dodge wanting us to get the weight of an organisation (set up by ourselves), it will never happen. Time and time again there have been calls to get together to fight against some situation (on all forums) and it never gets off the ground. It is a very good notion but it will never get off the ground.
> 
> I remember when there were hundreds of expensive brand new Fiats with gearbox problems. Someone wanted to organise a convoy to Fiat UK headquarters (along with a lot of publicity). Lots of owners said it was a great idea. Did it happen? No it did not. Luckily, sustained pressure from one man did eventually work on the 2.3 models.



and this is the point i need to bring, we  love to moan complain  but not join and deel, and im as gily as the next man or woman for complaining..


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## Burtie

maingate said:


> If we ever met up Burtie, you and I would get on as we feel the same way about the way we use our vans. It will not be in Scarborough though. :lol-049:
> 
> 
> As for Dodge wanting us to get the weight of an organisation (set up by ourselves), it will never happen. Time and time again there have been calls to get together to fight against some situation (on all forums) and it never gets off the ground. It is a very good notion but it will never get off the ground.
> 
> I remember when there were hundreds of expensive brand new Fiats with gearbox problems. Someone wanted to organise a convoy to Fiat UK headquarters (along with a lot of publicity). Lots of owners said it was a great idea. Did it happen? No it did not. Luckily, sustained pressure from one man did eventually work on the 2.3 models.



thats good like in one of my threads i will help any motorhomer out weather its coachbuilt or selfbuilt no matter where i would take numbers i am not afraid to say i would even have a word with the ones that do throw their rubbish out anywhere to see if they understand that it gives us a bad name but yes i can understand shaun because it should not be that way its just ashame that these people cant be segregated from us because its what the residents think at the end of the day its somebody with a motorhome weather it be selfbuilt or coachbuilt


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## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> thats good like in one of my threads i will help any motorhomer out weather its coachbuilt or selfbuilt no matter where i would take numbers i am not afraid to say i would even have a word with the ones that do throw their rubbish out anywhere to see if they understand that it gives us a bad name but yes i can understand shaun because it should not be that way its just ashame that these people cant be segregated from us because its what the residents think at the end of the day its somebody with a motorhome weather it be selfbuilt or coachbuilt


so will' i but the problem being with me as my van looked like a step toe atempt at holiday for free. ie no one come over to say hi. 
but now iv got paint on we will see. i also will help any one in need.


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## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> so will' i but the problem being with me as my van looked like a step toe atempt at holiday for free. ie no one come over to say hi.
> but now iv got paint on we will see. i also will help any one in need.



I've looked at the pictures of your mh shaun it's nothing to be ashamed of 
you should be proud of it I started off with a mini link bus I believe yours is the 
transit which I think is brobably the most reliable vehicle you can get I went round 
the country once in a transit van with the wife four kids and a friend with just a mattress 
in the back and it never missed a beat so don't put your van down be a proud man


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## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> I've looked at the pictures of your mh shaun it's nothing to be ashamed of
> you should be proud of it I started off with a mini link bus I believe yours is the
> transit which I think is probably the most reliable vehicle you can get I went round
> the country once in a transit van with the wife four kids and a friend with just a mattress
> in the back and it never missed a beat so don't put your van down be a proud man


im not diss in it any more as iv got the paint on now and its looking reel good for a home build, i beleave i can hold my own now when pulling in to sites and car parks with the simple attitude ' yup its a camper van me friend' lol its still need the cab to be done and sadly iv now got to fix the back as cliped a  i ton sand bag in the front yard  and riped the back panel haf off and  buggered the grp in the center, but aprt from that i'm there now at last.

a cheeky sod in the shell garage  walk away from filling me up when i pulled in   befor the paint, and as i was filling it  he came back very slowly scouting over the van i told him its hand made and with  a sarcastic reply , i can see that!. well  red running around my veins i got some paint and here we are.
whent back  a few days later with the back and one side done  he was slightly stuned and apologies for his sarcasm. humble pie and all that lol

so  id like to say thank you to you  for the praise Burtie. always good to be told  some likes what you built, now  you  that i think you need to see my trike iv spent two years to put together lol. i will put it my blog  later  tomorrow so pop back and let me now what you think lol its a v8 trike....


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## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> im not diss in it any more as iv got the paint on now and its looking reel good for a home build, i beleave i can hold my own now when pulling in to sites and car parks with the simple attitude ' yup its a camper van me friend' lol its still need the cab to be done and sadly iv now got to fix the back as cliped a  i ton sand bag in the front yard  and riped the back panel haf off and  buggered the grp in the center, but aprt from that i'm there now at last.
> 
> a cheeky sod in the shell garage  walk away from filling me up when i pulled in   befor the paint, and as i was filling it  he came back very slowly scouting over the van i told him its hand made and with  a sarcastic reply , i can see that!. well  red running around my veins i got some paint and here we are.
> whent back  a few days later with the back and one side done  he was slightly stuned and apologies for his sarcasm. humble pie and all that lol
> 
> so  id like to say thank you to you  for the praise Burtie. always good to be told  some likes what you built, now  you  that i think you need to see my trike iv spent two years to put together lol. i will put it my blog  later  tomorrow so pop back and let me now what you think lol its a v8 trike....


yes i will when i come back from the doctors they want a blood test as i had a heart attack in 2006
but that doesnt stop me from renovating my van with the good bit of weather today i managed to get another section of floor down just got screw it down now just hope the sun stays for a few days


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## dodge2transit

Burtie said:


> yes i will when i come back from the doctors they want a blood test as i had a heart attack in 2006
> but that doesnt stop me from renovating my van with the good bit of weather today i managed to get another section of floor down just got screw it down now just hope the sun stays for a few days


raining here , and this thread has now gone to sh*t lol.off track


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## dodge2transit

just got a reply to the email i sent , lol did not see this comeing ,so here is the copy.

Dear Sir/madam



I am in receipt of your objection to the proposed changes to Off Street Parking Regulations to prohibit motor caravan parking on 14 car parks in the Borough of Scarborough.  (information available on link below)



Public Notices | Scarborough Borough Council



Your objection will be considered together with any other objections received at the meeting of the Cabinet on Tuesday 18 September 2012.



I will advise you of the outcome following that meeting.



Yours sincerely



Jane Wilson



Deputy Parking Manager

Scarborough Borough Council

Tel (01723) 383582

Home | Scarborough Borough Council


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## Burtie

dodge2transit said:


> just got a reply to the email i sent , lol did not see this comeing ,so here is the copy.
> 
> Dear Sir/madam
> 
> 
> 
> I am in receipt of your objection to the proposed changes to Off Street Parking Regulations to prohibit motor caravan parking on 14 car parks in the Borough of Scarborough.  (information available on link below)
> 
> 
> 
> Public Notices | Scarborough Borough Council
> 
> 
> 
> Your objection will be considered together with any other objections received at the meeting of the Cabinet on Tuesday 18 September 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> I will advise you of the outcome following that meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> Yours sincerely
> 
> 
> 
> Jane Wilson
> 
> 
> 
> Deputy Parking Manager
> 
> Scarborough Borough Council
> 
> Tel (01723) 383582
> 
> Home | Scarborough Borough Council



the thing is whenever i go to scarborough i dont park on carparks i have seen the carparks what the thread was originally on about and im not sure i would bother staying on one of them because lets face it at south shore end of scarborough is where all the activity is as far as i have seen so i park up north end near where the toilets are so i would not class that part as a carpark i dont really know what i would class it as but i have never been moved on and police and council workers have even stopped and chatted to us sometimes i have this belief as long as you are doing nothing wrong dont worry about what others are doing as long as they dont do it near you


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