# Angus POIs overnight stays banned.



## barge1914 (Jun 13, 2021)

At the 3 POIs in Glen Clova ‘Strictly no overnight stays’ signs have materialised: on them they state they are provided by Angus Council and refer to Angus Council Management Rules. The sign at the one by the bridge has for the time being acquired legs and wandered away leaving a bare pole. Does anyone know anything about the status of or background to these?

The signs format and content bare little relationship to proper statutory signs in their wording or in the detail provided. ie: vague words ‘overnight’ and ‘stay’, no specific time periods, no reference to statute, TRO, or byelaw, no details of enforcement or penalties?


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## barge1914 (Jun 13, 2021)

Perhaps this has something to do with it?…..

Road Traffic Act 1991
Parking offences were decriminalised under the Road Traffic Act 1991. This enables local authorities to establish Special Parking Areas (SPAs). Within these areas, the local authority (or their representatives) can charge for and enforce all non-endorsable parking restrictions. The whole of Angus will be designated as a SPA and Angus Council will thereafter have responsibility for on-street parking controls and their enforcement across most roads within the county.

However does this relieve them from providing signage compliant with road traffic acts?


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## Tonybvi (Jun 13, 2021)

My own personal view is that if we’re not wanted somewhere then we’re not wanted and I will not stay, irrespective as to whether the sign  is legal or not.


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## jagmanx (Jun 13, 2021)

De-regulation rules ok (no not ok)


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## barge1914 (Jun 13, 2021)

Tonybvi said:


> My own personal view is that if we’re not wanted somewhere then we’re not wanted and I will not stay, irrespective as to whether the sign  is legal or not.


Likewise, and I didn’t, but it is nevertheless a matter of concern. Management does not necessarily mean saying where we should not park, but also designating suitable alternatives. To get a TRO in place councils are required to show they have considered alternatives. Scotgov does not hasten to approve TROs that selectively prohibit motorhomes, which explains perhaps why some Councils resort to other dodges to properly address catering for the increase in motorhomes. Some Councils have tried misusing PSBOs, albeit when confronted they have shown some reticence about enforcement.  But if and when they do use such measures it would be good to be assured they comply with the letter of the law and not just put up signs to frighten the horses.


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## alcam (Jun 14, 2021)

Tonybvi said:


> My own personal view is that if we’re not wanted somewhere then we’re not wanted and I will not stay, irrespective as to whether the sign  is legal or not.


Understand why you are saying that and does appear to be the default setting on here .
I do wonder if you were going to the doc , for example , and there was an illegal no parking sign would you obey it ?


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## kernewek (Jun 14, 2021)

Angus Council lease the car parks from Airlie Estates. There have been NOP signs for years, but they 'disappeared'. Overnights were pretty much tolerated until... the carnage last year. The estate asked AC to reinstate the signs as the debris and mess left behind from overnights was disgusting. The bottom sign was recently 'removed' and placed behind the bin. AC have retrieved it and are in the process of reinstalling it. The grammar could do with a bit of work though...


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## Fisherman (Jun 14, 2021)

kernewek said:


> Angus Council lease the car parks from Airlie Estates. There have been NOP signs for years, but they 'disappeared'. Overnights were pretty much tolerated until... the carnage last year. The estate asked AC to reinstate the signs as the debris and mess left behind from overnights was disgusting. The bottom sign was recently 'removed' and placed behind the bin. AC have retrieved it and are in the process of reinstalling it. The grammar could do with a bit of work though...


Was the mess left our doing, or as I witnessed last year primarily those in tents.


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## kernewek (Jun 15, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Was the mess left our doing, or as I witnessed last year primarily those in tents.


An estate car with a caravan


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## maureenandtom (Jun 16, 2021)

Tonybvi said:


> My own personal view is that if we’re not wanted somewhere then we’re not wanted and I will not stay, irrespective as to whether the sign  is legal or not.


 
Genuine question.

If your neighbour – like this one – didn't like your motohome to be parked on your own drive, and put up a notice saying so.  Would you park your motorhome elsewhere:

Or is it your view that some signs are just too illegal to comply with?    

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...planning-permission-park-motorhome-drive.html

Seems that this guy is going the wrong way about solving his motorhome problem.  Just put a sign up.


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## maureenandtom (Jun 16, 2021)

kernewek said:


> An estate car with a caravan


Then deal with the estate car with a caravan.  I'm innnocent.


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> Genuine question.
> 
> If your neighbour – like this one – didn't like your motohome to be parked on your own drive, and put up a notice saying so.  Would you park your motorhome elsewhere:
> 
> ...


I would like to add to your excellent post.
Where are we really wanted in very few places.
To me at best we are only tolerated in this country of ours.
Scotland is possibly the most welcoming, but even up here we are mainly only tolerated.


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## Tonybvi (Jun 16, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> Genuine question.
> 
> If your neighbour – like this one – didn't like your motohome to be parked on your own drive, and put up a notice saying so.  Would you park your motorhome elsewhere:
> 
> ...


Before I bought my first motorhome a long while back I told my neighbours and showed them where I was planning to park it beside my garage.  I asked them if they would mind.   Neither of them objected but if they had I would not have parked the van there.  I still occasionally check with the neighbours (same ones after all this time) that it’s still ok with them.  Again if either of them objected I would move the van somewhere less convenient for me.
I reckon that if a neighbour has to put a sign up rather than talking to you things have already got to a pretty sorry state.


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

Tonybvi said:


> Before I bought my first motorhome a long while back I told my neighbours and showed them where I was planning to park it beside my garage.  I asked them if they would mind.   Neither of them objected but if they had I would not have parked the van there.  I still occasionally check with the neighbours (same ones after all this time) that it’s still ok with them.  Again if either of them objected I would move the van somewhere less convenient for me.
> I reckon that if a neighbour has to put a sign up rather than talking to you things have already got to a pretty sorry state.



Our missives state no towed vehicles or commercial vehicles, yet we have several commercial vehicles parked in our street, and most are not parked on their drives, but on the road. There is one caravan parked up on their drive.  There are two and three car families who only have single driveways. Would I complain about this, absolutely not. Our next van will be a van conversion, no larger than the commercial vans already parked up. Our current van in a 6m A class, which is parked on one side of our driveway. My car is parked in my garage, with one side of my drive empty.  Personally if it’s parked on my drive I see no need to ask permission of anyone, but I have seen mohos parked up for long periods on the road, I would not do this.


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## Robmac (Jun 16, 2021)

I have 2 campers, 3 cars and a work van parked on my drive.

There is nothing in our deeds stating that I cannot do this so the way I see it is that it is nothing to do with the neighbours. Thankfully we get on well with our neighbours and neither of them has raised any sort of objections to this.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jun 16, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Our missives state no towed vehicles or commercial vehicles, yet we have several commercial vehicles parked in our street, and most are not parked on their drives, but on the road. There is one caravan parked up on their drive.  There are two and three car families who only have single driveways. Would I complain about this, absolutely not. Our next van will be a van conversion, no larger than the commercial vans already parked up. Our current van in a 6m A class, which is parked on one side of our driveway. My car is parked in my garage, with one side of my drive empty.  Personally if it’s parked on my drive I see no need to ask permission of anyone, *but I have seen mohos parked up for long periods on the road, I would not do this.*



Doesn't that very much depend on what sort of road they're parked on?

And even then, if they are parked legally (i.e. the vehicle is road legal - taxed, tested, insured) and cause no obstruction or danger to anyone, why would you be bothered? Again, no different to any other legally parked vehicle, whether short or long term, imo.

Some people don't have the benefit of off-street parking, does this mean they shouldn't own a camper if they have to park it on the road?


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Doesn't that very much depend on what sort of road they're parked on?
> 
> And even then, if they are parked legally (i.e. the vehicle is road legal - taxed, tested, insured) and cause no obstruction or danger to anyone, why would you be bothered? Again, no different to any other legally parked vehicle, whether short or long term, imo.
> 
> Some people don't have the benefit of off-street parking, does this mean they shouldn't own a camper if they have to park it on the road?


I was referring to my street, where I live, and it would cause annoyance to others. For me it’s no different to parking outside someone’s home when wild camping, something I would always try to avoid even for one night, never mind for weeks on end without moving the van.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jun 16, 2021)

Like I said, depends on the type of road.

There's an old motorhome parked up somewhere near the banks of the Tyne on an industrial estate.
Also another one parked near a large wholesalers in the same area.

They are obviously lived in and have each been parked up there there for several years now.
Both are actually 'off road', as it were.

One is parked on quite a large pavement area that sees little, if any, passing footfall, and the other is parked in a lay-by which isn't frequented much (or  even needed) by other vehicles.


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Like I said, depends on the type of road.
> 
> There's an old motorhome parked up somewhere near the banks of the Tyne on an industrial estate.
> Also another one parked near a large wholesalers in the same area.
> ...



Just to add Marie, when I say I would not park outside my home, I was not meaning to be judgemental of others. Obviously that is for each individual to decide, and would depend on how their Neighbours reacted. It’s bad enough being treated as a nuisance when out and about, without being treated likewise whilst at home.


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## maingate (Jun 16, 2021)

I believe that all vehicles parked on the road are parked illegally.

Unless the Law has changed, a vehicle has to have its offside sidelights illuminated during the hours of darkness. Do new vehicles still have that facility provided by makers?


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

Waiting and parking (238 to 252)​

Waiting and parking (238)            
Parking (239 to 247)
3. Parking at night (248 to 252)
4. Decriminalised Parking Enforcement



3. Parking at night (248 to 252)​248
You *MUST NOT *park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space. Laws CUR reg 101 & RVLR reg 24

249
All vehicles *MUST *display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
_Law RVLR reg 24_

250
Cars, goods vehicles not exceeding 1525 kg unladen weight, invalid carriages, motorcycles and pedal cycles may be parked without lights on a road (or lay-by) with a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) or less if they are


at least 10 metres (32 feet) away from any junction, close to the kerb and facing in the direction of the traffic flow
in a recognised parking place or lay-by.
Other vehicles and trailers, and all vehicles with projecting loads,*MUST NOT* be left on a road at night without lights.
_Laws RVLR reg 24 & CUR reg 82(7)










						Waiting and parking - Parking at night (248 to 252)
					

You MUST NOT park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space.



					www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk
				



_


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## alcam (Jun 16, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Waiting and parking (238 to 252)​
> 
> Waiting and parking (238)
> Parking (239 to 247)
> ...


May be one of the few on here to get done for one of the above offences . It was nearly 50 years ago but I thought it was for being on wrong side of the road without a parking light ?
Technically an offence but wasn't convinced the police had to come to my house at 4am to charge me!


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## maureenandtom (Jun 16, 2021)

Tonybvi said:


> Before I bought my first motorhome a long while back I told my neighbours and showed them where I was planning to park it beside my garage.  I asked them if they would mind.   Neither of them objected but if they had I would not have parked the van there.  I still occasionally check with the neighbours (same ones after all this time) that it’s still ok with them.  Again if either of them objected I would move the van somewhere less convenient for me.
> I reckon that if a neighbour has to put a sign up rather than talking to you things have already got to a pretty sorry state.


 
Thank you for that reply.  I did  exactly the same when I replaced my stolen motorhome a couple of years ago.  Checked with the neighbours first.    But the question really was, if a neighbour posted a notice forbidding motorhomes, say within 25 metres of this notice, would you feel obliged to obey the notice.  Not in response to a friendly approach from a neighbour but to an illegally posted unenforceable requirement.

Do you remember the story of the yellow car in Bibury?   The story was that locals, in an especially pretty English village, objected to the presence of a yellow car parked outside the owner's house.  Spoiled the view.   Their only objection was that it was yellow and therefore an eyesore.

*https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hundreds-yellow-cars-descend-picturesque-10139179*

Don't know why I've posted that really.   It sort of supports the viewpoint that we should obey all notices whether legal or not.


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## Fisherman (Jun 16, 2021)

Police Scotland requested years ago that all no overnight parking signs should be removed, as these signs themselves are actually illegal, and they cannot be enforced in any way. Here’s a BBC article about highland council who agreed to do so in 2012. Highland Council to remove 'no overnight parking' signs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-19672972

To my way of thinking these signs are not only illegal but show a degree of laziness and ignorance. If these people have faith in what they think is correct why not apply for a TRA under the road traffic act of 1984. I reckon it’s because they know fine well their request would fail.

Let’s be clear here other than the fact that someone does not want us to park there, they have no legal standing whatsoever. Personally I tend to move on, because my wife feels insecure in such situations. But if I was alone I would not hesitate to remain. Some of the signage I have seen is laughable. In Calendar they put up signs stating, NO OVERNIGHT SLEEPING, so if you wish to remain there that’s fine just don’t go to sleep

These signs are illegal, and should be removed.
Another point what about barriers.
I have seen councils putting up barriers with no mention of a TRA.
Surely that’s even worse than the no overnight parking signs.


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## caledonia (Jun 16, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Police Scotland requested years ago that all no overnight parking signs should be removed, as these signs themselves are actually illegal, and they cannot be enforced in any way. Here’s a BBC article about highland council who agreed to do so in 2012. Highland Council to remove 'no overnight parking' signs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-19672972
> 
> To my way of thinking these signs are not only illegal but show a degree of laziness and ignorance. If these people have faith in what they think is correct why not apply for a TRA under the road traffic act of 1984. I reckon it’s because they know fine well their request would fail.
> 
> ...


It’s a TRO and Callendar has two Ls.


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## barge1914 (Jun 17, 2021)

‘Managing’ to my mind would be doing what Fyfe, Argyll and Bute and Highlands have started  doing…designating a limited number of motorhome spaces in each car park, and making a reasonable charge to help maintenance and operation of these remote car parks, to fund CDPs in the county, and enable communities to see us as an asset rather than a nuisance…and to provide a few bins.

 And yes, with few exceptions I have never seen mess left by Self-Contained motorhomes, although there have been a few egregious examples by hirers.


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## Fisherman (Jun 17, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> ‘Managing’ to my mind would be doing what Fyfe, Argyll and Bute and Highlands have started  doing…designating a limited number of motorhome spaces in each car park, and making a reasonable charge to help maintenance and operation of these remote car parks, to fund CDPs in the county, and enable communities to see us as an asset rather than a nuisance…and to provide a few bins.
> 
> And yes, with few exceptions I have never seen mess left by Self-Contained motorhomes, although there have been a few egregious examples by hirers.



Yes I do agree but the problem is due to the inaction or even worse by other regions, by trying to manage the situation effectively, they make themselves a target for us. As I stated on the Elie thread which I started what happened was word got round that Fife had opened up 7 spots for overnight use. On one night there were over 30 vans at Elie.
If what was being done in Fife, Argyll and Bute, and Highland was the norm then this could have been avoided. Unfortunately some regions see management in terms of erecting barriers, and putting up signs. All they are doing is moving what they wrongly perceive as a problem elsewhere, and that’s what helped create the problems at Elie recently.


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## caledonia (Jun 17, 2021)

The problem at Elie was caused by irresponsible motor home owners not the council. If there’s 7 spaces and 30 vans that means 23 irresponsible motor home owners. Thats the majority spoiling it for the minority and makes us look lunch a bunch of freeloaders


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## barge1914 (Jun 17, 2021)

Yes, it was with some trepidation I went to Elie recently, but I’m glad to say the numbers were fine. Although with summer approaching I wonder if that will remain so. Personally I would like to see places like Elie introducing a charge. I would be happy to pay a fiver or tenner for a place by the sea. A charge of £20 for a Moho outside a Moho space at night, and for a car in a Moho space at any time would make a good deterrent and be a nice little earner for the Fyfe Coast Trust who need the money. 

What happens at the moment all too easily is that mohos arriving earlier find all the Moho spaces full of cars, park up hoping space will come clear later, go off for a walk and come back to find later arrivals have grabbed the spaces vacated by the cars, forcing on them the decision to stay and offend, or go elsewhere at a time when they know elsewhere will also be full.


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## Fisherman (Jun 17, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> Yes, it was with some trepidation I went to Elie recently, but I’m glad to say the numbers were fine. Although with summer approaching I wonder if that will remain so. Personally I would like to see places like Elie introducing a charge. I would be happy to pay a fiver or tenner for a place by the sea. A charge of £20 for a Moho outside a Moho space at night, and for a car in a Moho space at any time would make a good deterrent and be a nice little earner for the Fyfe Coast Trust who need the money.
> 
> What happens at the moment all too easily is that mohos arriving earlier find all the Moho spaces full of cars, park up hoping space will come clear later, go off for a walk and come back to find later arrivals have grabbed the spaces vacated by the cars, forcing on them the decision to stay and offend, or go elsewhere at a time when they know elsewhere will also be full.


I get your point regarding the cars parking in the spaces provided.
But any vehicle can park in these spaces from 0700 to 2000hrs.
After 2000hrs you are supposed to park only in one of the seven places provided. There is nothing stopping you from parking anywhere within the carpark from 0700 till 2000hrs and then moving into a vacant designated spot.
I agree however it would have been better if Fife Coast Trust had designated these spaces as Moho only.


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