# No overnight parking and the BIG SOCIETY



## MichaelU (Feb 28, 2011)

I have just fleshed out the PM's "Big Society" concept and made my first positive contribution.

I ignored the unnecessary bureaucratic contribution to the posting of a "No overnight parking" sign in favour of a more uplifting and reinvigorating future for us all. I parked overnight and ignored it.

The following morning I took out an adjustable spanner and removed the sign from the post, it only took 30 seconds, if I had taken my tin snips I could have cut the belt tie in 3 seconds.

Shocked at my action (I am 62 by the way), I took the large aluminium sign and recycled it at a nearby car park in the aluminium recycling bin.

This way I have helped myself and others like myself as well as contributing much needed materials to the far more important need of the planet to recycle scarce resources and save earth.

I feel great 

I suggest you try it too.


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## robjk (Feb 28, 2011)

you young tearaway !! I am glad to see you did recycle 

Well done
Rob


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## Deleted member 3802 (Feb 28, 2011)

you manchester guys have strangeways


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## frogdude (Feb 28, 2011)

Good for you, i love hearing this sort of stuff!


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## Tbear (Feb 28, 2011)

We have all felt like doing it. We have all thought about doing it so to condemn you for doing it would be hypocrisy. Therefore all I can say is well done that man


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## Baggins (Feb 28, 2011)

*Great thinking - no sign, no offence committed.*

Excellent - more power to your spanner.


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## kevin paine (Feb 28, 2011)

well f-----g done maybe we all should have a go.


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## John H (Feb 28, 2011)

Oh dear, oh dear. Now I know why there are fewer and fewer places available for us to legitimately stop.


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## walter senior (Feb 28, 2011)

*Good on you Michaelu  just what i would do at 74 i could not care less*

__


MichaelU said:


> I have just fleshed out the PM's "Big Society" concept and made my first positive contribution.
> 
> I ignored the unnecessary bureaucratic contribution to the posting of a "No overnight parking" sign in favour of a more uplifting and reinvigorating future for us all. I parked overnight and ignored it.
> 
> ...


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## Tbear (Feb 28, 2011)

Come on John H have you never felt the need to stick two fingers up at authority.

Richard


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## walter senior (Feb 28, 2011)

*i think you are out voted*




John H said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. Now I know why there are fewer and fewer places available for us to legitimately stop.


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## MichaelU (Feb 28, 2011)

John H said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. Now I know why there are fewer and fewer places available for us to legitimately stop.


 
One more actually...


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## romakayak (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm not sure what to think on this one. Normally it's the youngsters that have not been brainwashed by our fear driven judicial system. The elders normally cave in to rules and regulations. Strictly speaking it's theft but since I have commited mant crimes and proud of it then I guess now I'm 2 minutes from first reading the post I guess it must be OK.

After all it was put there by a hypocrital, double standards, theiving, over paid and money grabbing council in the first place.


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## maureenandtom (Feb 28, 2011)

It's true.   We are a cowed and frightened society.   However, look at this

MORE than 90 per cent of Medway motorists who challenged parking tickets were successful, according to a national tribunal.

I've no idea how many of the docile paid their fines without complaint but in this particular area 90% of those who did complain won their case.

I took on a council and told the tale of it here.  http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/11681-long-mysterious-tale.html

I won.   The council backed down, changed their signs and we now have another place we can safely park overnight.  And yet...  And yet...  Threr were plentywho said that I would spoil it for the rest of us.  Well, I didn't.   I made it better.

The more of us who challenge these people the better.   

Say to them as I did, reasonably, "I think you are wrong.  I will require you to prove to a court that you have the right to impose this rule."  When I did it the council backed down and removed the threat of a penalty from their notices.


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## walter senior (Feb 28, 2011)

*you are right it is about time we started to challenge these pepole*

__


maureenandtom said:


> It's true.   We are a cowed and frightened society.   However, look at this
> 
> MORE than 90 per cent of Medway motorists who challenged parking tickets were successful, according to a national tribunal.
> 
> ...


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## lebesset (Feb 28, 2011)

question is ...was there any legality in banning overnight there anyway ; what was the reason for trying to take away our rights?


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## bigpieeater (Feb 28, 2011)

John H said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. Now I know why there are fewer and fewer places available for us to legitimately stop.


 THERE IS ALWAYS ONE!!!!! Lighten up


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## Tony Lee (Mar 1, 2011)

romakayak said:


> After all it was put there by a hypocrital, double standards, theiving, over paid and money grabbing council in the first place.


 
And removed by a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker.

Guess that makes it OK does it.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 1, 2011)

lebesset said:


> question is ...was there any legality in banning overnight there anyway ; what was the reason for trying to take away our rights?


 
The right to occupy your motorhome "for human habitation" in any location other than a campsite was removed initially in 1937 then reinforced in 1960.

Except for a few exemptions, it is against the law for a landowner, to permit the stationment of a caravan (includes a motorhome) for human habitation, unless they hold a site licence.

The only exemptions from holding a site licence are The Crown, Dutchy of Cornwall and Lancaster and Government departments.  Local authorities have an exemption for land within their area.

So in effect you have *no right *to live, eat, or sleep in a caravan/motorhome except on a licenced camp site in the UK.

John


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## John H (Mar 1, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> And removed by a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker.
> 
> Guess that makes it OK does it.


 
Well said. This is precisely the point. I am willing to bet that many if not all of those who have applauded this action would be first in line to complain about eveything from "illegal immigrants coming here and taking our jobs" to "rowdy youth covering bus shelters with grafitti". If you start picking and choosing which laws you obey, where does it end and how have you any right to complain when others break different laws?

It is true that some of those signs are not backed up by regulations and so they can be challenged in court (as in the example of Medway) but many others are backed up by regulations and if you want to challenge those that aren't, the courts are the place to do it.  

As for whether local authorities have the right to issue parking regulations and enforce them, the annswer is Yes. Take a look at Part 6 of the 2004 Traffic Management Act or the 2007 Civil Enforcement of Parking Contravention (England) General Regulations.


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## MichaelU (Mar 1, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> And removed by a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker.
> 
> Guess that makes it OK does it.



 Well, thanks for that, I guess we won't be friends in our lifetime.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 1, 2011)

John H said:


> Well said. This is precisely the point. I am willing to bet that many if not all of those who have applauded this action would be first in line to complain about eveything from "illegal immigrants coming here and taking our jobs" to "rowdy youth covering bus shelters with grafitti". If you start picking and choosing which laws you obey, where does it end and how have you any right to complain when others break different laws?
> 
> It is true that some of those signs are not backed up by regulations and so they can be challenged in court (as in the example of Medway) but many others are backed up by regulations and if you want to challenge those that aren't, the courts are the place to do it.
> 
> As for whether local authorities have the right to issue parking regulations and enforce them, the annswer is Yes. Take a look at Part 6 of the 2004 Traffic Management Act or the 2007 Civil Enforcement of Parking Contravention (England) General Regulations.



Really John?

Are you sure this has any relevance?

_*Section 6: Powers to stop or direct traffic

29.Section 6 provides for traffic officers to have similar powers to those held by the police under the Road Traffic Act 1988 (“RTA”) to require vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians to stop and to require vehicles and cyclists to proceed in a particular direction.*_

Or did you think I wouldn't be bothered to look?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 1, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> And removed by a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker.
> 
> Guess that makes it OK does it.


 

Ah right.  Attack the poster.   Means you can't attack the post?   You are able to provide proof that a fellow poster is a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker, are you?  Please provide it.


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## Tbear (Mar 1, 2011)

Are we taking this a bit far. It seems to be a mad moment of rebellion against what could well have been a bit of totally unfair bureaucracy. No imigrants. No vadalism(Bracket left in place).No pain or suffering, just a small theft for no personal gain except a bit of personal satisfaction. MichaelU said that he was "Shocked at his action".  Therefore he was in no way saying it wto take as the corrrect action to take or encourageing others to take similar action. He also had the courage to own up to it and take the flack.

JohnH
Yes I do complain about about local Gangmasters Keep ILLEGAL imigrants, 8 to a room and more that 30 to a terrraced house. Paying them less than minimum wages. This happened locally and was reported in the nation press. I fail to see the comparrison.

Richard


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## Higgy (Mar 1, 2011)

_Loose Lips Sinks Ships _comes to mind.

I am not in favour of all these new "No Overnight" parking signs 
cropping up everywhere neither do I like the height barriers.

It seems that more and more places are becoming no go areas for
the Camper Van fraternity - Car Parks: Supermarkets; Towns and Cities
and a host of others.

We were out by the coast at the weekend and could not park where the 
rest of the cars were due to a Height Barrier.  We had to trundle down a bit
and park on a muddy bit where there was a burnt out motor and two piles
of windsceen glass. from the aftermath of a motor vehicle crime (possibly)

Had our original poster been from a specific Ethnic Group that likes Wild Camping
the said "No Overnight" parking sign would have been totally ignored by the
driver and family.  

Should any Law Enforcer be it council or Police come upon or be sent to
the illegal parking it would quickly be put into the 'Too Hard To Do Box'.

Court Orders - not worth it
Fixed Penalty Tickets - would not get paid

But if the same Law Enforcers came upon the sole MH user then get ready
for a FP Ticket unless you agree to move on.

Things might have changed in the 10 years I have been finished with the
Police but I doubt it.

I think in retrospect if anyone else feels they must remove these signs then
do so without the need to tell the Forum.

In essence it is illegal and may get the Forum some unwanted attention and
people looking in from the outside see us cheering on the poster.

The more people that know about a crime the easier it is to detect.

Why not take pictures of these signs and somehow check to see
if they are legit.  Then we complain to the authorities.

I hope you do not think I am on my Soap Box - Fairness should be
for all vehicle users, Motorhomes included.

Higgy, soon to move to NZ, fingers crossed.


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## AndyC (Mar 1, 2011)

John Thompson said:


> The right to occupy your motorhome "for human habitation" in any location other than a campsite was removed initially in 1937 then reinforced in 1960.
> 
> Except for a few exemptions, it is against the law for a landowner, to permit the stationment of a caravan (includes a motorhome) for human habitation, unless they hold a site licence.
> 
> ...


John, you are right that a land owner needs a site licence and planning permission in order to permit a caravan/motorhome to be occupied for the purpose of human habitation on his land. However it seems to me that the offence would only be committed by the land owner if he permitted an overnight stay. No offence under the 1960 Act would be committed by the person staying with their caravan or motorhome, or by the land owner if he hadn't permitted the overnight stay.
The caravan/motorhome owner might be guilty of trespass, but that is a civil matter and the only option the land owner has in that case would be to sue for any damage caused.

There is the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act which does give the police powers to act if sufficient number of people and vehicles are involved.

There may also be local by-laws in place prohibiting, for example, sleeping in vehicles at a certain location. In that case a penalty notice for the contravention could be issued.

AndyC


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## bigpieeater (Mar 1, 2011)

John H said:


> Well said. This is precisely the point. I am willing to bet that many if not all of those who have applauded this action would be first in line to complain about eveything from "illegal immigrants coming here and taking our jobs" to "rowdy youth covering bus shelters with grafitti". If you start picking and choosing which laws you obey, where does it end and how have you any right to complain when others break different laws?
> 
> It is true that some of those signs are not backed up by regulations and so they can be challenged in court (as in the example of Medway) but many others are backed up by regulations and if you want to challenge those that aren't, the courts are the place to do it.
> 
> As for whether local authorities have the right to issue parking regulations and enforce them, the annswer is Yes. Take a look at Part 6 of the 2004 Traffic Management Act or the 2007 Civil Enforcement of Parking Contravention (England) General Regulations.


When did you say you were leaving the country??


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## BecksP (Mar 1, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> And removed by a hypocritical, double standards, thieving lawbreaker.
> 
> Guess that makes it OK does it.


 
Gosh Tony,

You're a bit of a **** on the QT aren't you.


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## Tbear (Mar 1, 2011)

So John Thompson and AndyC 

1/ What if my brother parks his motorhome on my land and sleeps in it. Am I breaking the law

2/ What if my friend parks his motorhome on my land and sleeps in it. Am I breaking the law

3/ If I pull over and have a sleep in a layby because I'm tired. Is there an offence.

4/ If you spend a night in a pub carpark with the permission of the landlord is there an offence.

Richard


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 1, 2011)

i have no probs with the removal of the sighn ,if that is what you want to do then that is wat you must do .but i would prefer to ignore the sighn as i normaly do anyway.the thing is if we belive that the sighn has been put there with no real standing in law then wouldent it be easier to defend our rights in court for parking  than have to start and defend a theft and criminal dammage case then hope to win a lesser charge of ilegal parking ,if that parking can be proven to be ilegal in the first place


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## AndyC (Mar 1, 2011)

Tbear said:


> So John Thompson and AndyC
> 
> 1/ What if my brother parks his motorhome on my land and sleeps in it. Am I breaking the law
> 
> ...



The answer to all the above is - possibly.

AndyC


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## coolasluck (Mar 1, 2011)

MichaelU said:


> I have just fleshed out the PM's "Big Society" concept and made my first positive contribution.
> 
> I ignored the unnecessary bureaucratic contribution to the posting of a "No overnight parking" sign in favour of a more uplifting and reinvigorating future for us all. I parked overnight and ignored it.
> 
> ...


 




Good on you my freind i wonder if we got enough of these signs what the recycled material would make us,with todays scrap value.
You know what i am going to join you,power to the people i say from now on im taking my tin snips and spanners with me,no signs no problems.Up the revolution
We spend to much time worrying about the law and the police but what we forget is that there is no law and order in this country ask the many thousands of filth who have brocken the law and been to court 20 or 30 times it dont seem to bother them in their endless conveyor belt criminal ways.


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## Firefox (Mar 2, 2011)

> The only exemptions from holding a site licence are The Crown, Dutchy of  Cornwall and Lancaster and Government departments.



Says it all really... one law for some...

By the way, I am very much in favour of recycling scrap aluminium; the practice should be extended by those willing to take the time and effort


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## Tony Lee (Mar 2, 2011)

BecksP said:


> Gosh Tony,
> 
> You're a bit of a **** on the QT aren't you.



Not sure if I am or not without you coming out and interpreting what you had in mind by ****.

Someone else claimed - 



> No pain or suffering, just a small theft for no personal gain except a bit of personal satisfaction.



Certainly some very interesting moral gymnastics by some trying to justify an illegal act. Where is the line drawn? Shoplifting up to a hundred quid becomes OK does it? How about a slashed tyre or two, or maybe a couple of wing mirrors ripped off.

 I guess in this case the cost of the sign plus labour to replace it would be considerably higher than what would cause most people to call the police if they suffered an equivalent loss.

If the OP had any guts at all, he/she would have marched into the local council office with the sign in hand and told them what had been done and why.



> ask the many thousands of filth who have brocken the law



The old "If you can't beat them, join them" argument


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 2, 2011)

AndyC said:


> John, you are right that a land owner needs a site licence and planning permission in order to permit a caravan/motorhome to be occupied for the purpose of human habitation on his land. However it seems to me that the offence would only be committed by the land owner if he permitted an overnight stay. No offence under the 1960 Act would be committed by the person staying with their caravan or motorhome, or by the land owner if he hadn't permitted the overnight stay.
> The caravan/motorhome owner might be guilty of trespass, but that is a civil matter and the only option the land owner has in that case would be to sue for any damage caused.
> 
> There is the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act which does give the police powers to act if sufficient number of people and vehicles are involved.
> ...


 
Hi Andy 

I was replying to Dave's post that said that these signs were taking away his right to overnight where he wanted.  I was simply pointing out that he did not have a right to park anyway, without permission.

John


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 2, 2011)

Tbear said:


> So John Thompson and AndyC
> 
> 1/ What if my brother parks his motorhome on my land and sleeps in it. Am I breaking the law
> 
> ...


 
Hi Richard 

1. 2.  Not necessarily.
WHERE A SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED
Use within curtilage of a dwellinghouse
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a
caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a
dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situated. 

4 could be OK provided that only one Motorhome caravan is involved and it is for no more than two nights and the total number of nights in a year does not exceed 28.

Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights
2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a
site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan
site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan
on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights—
(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the
purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining
land in the same occupation,and
(b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on
which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number
of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that
land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human
habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.

In all of the above it would not be the person in the caravan/Motorhome that is breaking the law.  It would be the owner of the land.

3.  
There is no problem in taking a rest in a lay by.  No one would suggest that a driver should proceed if they feel that their driving is impaired by tiredness.
The question must be asked, is there not somewhere that would be more suitable near by?    We all use laybys for a quick break including having a snack or having a short rest break.  Where problems arise are prolonged stays.

Parking in a lay by is controlled by other regulations.  If the road has a speed limit of more than 30mph, then the vehicle lights must be displayed after dark.
If the parking causes an obstruction then the police can take action.

John


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## Tbear (Mar 2, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> Not sure if I am or not without you coming out and interpreting what you had in mind by ****.
> 
> Someone else claimed -
> 
> ...



Hi Tony Lee 

Just me trying to get thing into perspective when the tempers where getting, in my opinion a bit over heated. If you read the post you will see that neither myself nor the OP made any attempt to Justify the theft but to classify it as a minor crime.

When you cannot be bothered to look to see who you are quoting, to accuse the OP of being gutless for not marching into council office with said sign, which could have taken up many hours of his time is a bit rich.

May I ask what you have done to improve the parking for motorhomes

Someone else AKA Richard


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## Tbear (Mar 2, 2011)

AndyC said:


> The answer to all the above is - possibly.
> 
> AndyC


 
Don't you just love English law


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## bigpieeater (Mar 2, 2011)

Higgy said:


> _Loose Lips Sinks Ships _comes to mind.
> 
> I am not in favour of all these new "No Overnight" parking signs
> cropping up everywhere neither do I like the height barriers.
> ...


OH Higgy.
Watch out, you voiced an opinion about our ethnic neighbours, a subject that will open the flood gates to those on here with their head stuck in the sand, they don't agree that we have any problems with them.
However, I am with you on that.


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## carsan (Mar 2, 2011)

Well done Michael all the more reason for having an adjustable and a pair of snips as part of the tool kit. I feel that the aluminium recycle industry is going to improve.


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## Tony Lee (Mar 2, 2011)

Tbear said:


> Hi Tony Lee
> 
> Just me trying to get thing into perspective when the tempers where getting, in my opinion a bit over heated. If you read the post you will see that neither myself nor the OP made any attempt to Justify the theft but to classify it as a minor crime.
> 
> ...


 
I can't see anywhere that tempers have gotten overheated. 

This post is all about some twit vandalising a sign and then being silly enough to come here and brag about it - albeit without being quite brave enough to give full name and address. As always happens, a few darlings get a bit upset when not everyone agrees with their stupid actions.

What I have or have not done to improve parking for motohomes isn't at all relevant to this topic so I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask. However, what I do try to do wherever I go, is to leave as little evidence of my passing as possible. If the OP followed my example, that sign would be still on the pole and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 2, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> I can't see anywhere that tempers have gotten overheated.
> 
> This post is all about some twit vandalising a sign and then being silly enough to come here and brag about it - albeit *without being quite brave enough to give full name and address*. As always happens, a few darlings get a bit upset when not everyone agrees with their stupid actions.
> 
> *What I have or have not done to improve parking for motohomes isn't at all relevant to this topic *so I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask. However, what I do try to do wherever I go, is to leave as little evidence of my passing as possible. If the OP followed my example, that sign would be still on the pole and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


 
It's very relevant if you disagree with what someone else has done.   

Tell us what you've done.  And your full name and address at the same time please.


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## Dezi (Mar 2, 2011)

I am constantly surprised how quickly almost any topic on an internet site becomes abusive. 
May I offer a gentle word of caution on this particular downwards spiraling topic  before we reach the “Godwin’s law” stage? 
Godwin’s law states “That as an online discussion grows longer & more heated, then the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler is inevitably  i.e. -  councils are power mad – we are cowed – just like the Nazis etc etc. 
At this point the discussion must finish & the person who makes this comment automatically loses the argument. 
 Just thought I would mention it before you reach that stage.
Dezi.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 2, 2011)

i dont know what the problem is we have wild camped all over for years ,and lived in the van and never had 1 problem with parking overnight on carparks with or without no camping or overnighting sighns . even talking to the carpark wardens they all seem to have no probs with us staying the odd night  but and it is a big but if we start vandalising the sighns we will be stopped parking .how many times do people on here say pick up rubbish and leave the place tidy and those who dont make it hard for us to get local authoritis to come on our side ,what is going to happen when we are trying to convince the local councils how responsable we are when we are ripping down sighns THATS VANDALISEM  sorry for any spelling mistakes. if as a lot of us say the sighnes have no standing in law then isent it more sensible if we get fined to challenge them in court than rip them down


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## maureenandtom (Mar 2, 2011)

Mandrake, yes it is.  Much more sensible.

Dezi,   Stop being sensible.   And silly too.  Nobody is going to talk about Nazis or anything like that.   And who ever heard of councils being power mad?

Tony.  It's just a bit much when you call somebody a thief.   Especially coming from somebody who is profiting from the theft of an entire continent from it's rightful owners.   That's a bit like …  Oh!

Michael.   Are you ex-service?   I'm almost sure you are.  Are you having fun?


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## donkey too (Mar 2, 2011)

At the end of the day the council that erected the sign was elected by the people of that area to represent them., Therefore in erecting a sign saying "no overnighting" whatever. they were doing so on behalf of the people of that area who incidentally pay the rates in that area.
If the said vandalism  (for it is nothing short of that) was done by local youths. there would be outcry. If it were Gypos stopping there there would be crys of move them away. 
By wild camping you are tolerated by the owners of the land you stay on. It is the owners right to set whatever rules they like and expect you to respect them. You have no right, god given or otherwise to stay where you please with no questions asked.
I often have people from a riding school next door park in my drive way. although it is a long driveway with huge grassed verges, I don't want people parking there and have a notice saying so. I expect people to repect my wishes, if they don't then the gates get locked so that they can't access their car and have to pay a levy not for the return of the car but to get me to open the gates. That is my right.


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## Dezi (Mar 2, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> Mandrake, yes it is.  Much more sensible.
> 
> Dezi,   Stop being sensible.   And silly too.  Nobody is going to talk about Nazis or anything like that.   And who ever heard of councils being power mad?
> 
> ...


 

Hi its always worth remering what you have previously said before you jump in.

You said   " It's true. We are a cowed and frightened society."   Surely that can only come from being intimidated by a power mad authority, council or otherwise. 

Regarding my comment about Nazis. Well its because threads with no solution, such as this nearly always end up that way & is the very reason  “Godwin’s law” came into being. 

Dezi


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## Firefox (Mar 2, 2011)

If I had a penny for every time I hear about Godwin's so called law, hehehe.

I think you will have to have the law invoked on yourself Dezi, because you were the first to mention Nazis, albeit only in the context of explaining the "law",  that still counts!!


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## maureenandtom (Mar 2, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> And who ever heard of councils being power mad?


 
My inadequate attempt at irony.  I apologise.  

If it is not obvious to all, then I freely admit here and now that I believe that councils are inadequately supervised and often take powers upon themselves that we have not given them.   

As for us, generally, being frightened.  Of course we are.   Post after post expresses the fear of what councils will do next if we dare disobey them.  "Don't park there or the council will put up a barrier and we won't be able to park there."  Yeah?  Not see something wrong with that?


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## Dezi (Mar 2, 2011)

Firefox said:


> If I had a penny for every time I hear about Godwin's so called law, hehehe.
> 
> I think you will have to have the law invoked on yourself Dezi, because you were the first to mention Nazis, albeit only in the context of explaining the "law",  that still counts!!




Really by who's rules ?

I think this thread has now run out of steam & logic. So I am off.

Dezi


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## BecksP (Mar 2, 2011)

*Encourage this thread please...*

Having seen how (reasonably) law abiding motorhome users are being marginalised by bureaucrats who are doing little to support the manufacturers of motorhomes in this country, I am ashamed that our local car park and lay by are being handed over to those degenerates who engage in public sexual activity.

I live near a Cheshire beauty spot once frequented by Motorhomes where we have been banned, with the ubiquitous signage, for no known reason as far as the local residents can see, unless the council ordered a bulk purchase of them. The area is now popular for "dogging" where cars owners use the venue for casual sex discarding no end of paraphernalia behind when they leave.

The Police are disinterested, the law turns a blind eye but at least we have seen the back of motorhomes.... I hope not. The UK is quite mad you know. We need to take some kind of action because they are most definitely not listening, and have not done so for the 10 years I have had a motorhome.

Our activity needs far greater support from councils to encourage sensible use not ban us.


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## MichaelU (Mar 2, 2011)

*Casual sex!*

So if I visit cheshire and remove your sign I shall deprive dozens of people the opportunity of casual sex?

Tickled to think where this thread has gone, sex was the last thing on my mind.

I do agree that Motorhome owners have been totally ignored for too long now. I contribute to the economy by my purchase yet I am treated like a leper when I want to visit a town or city and park up. I want to spend my cash in the UK but I feel more comfortable and welcome in France where I go as often as I can.

Local and national Government need to welcome our contribution to the economy not scorn and prohibit us.


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## maingate (Mar 2, 2011)

I go away for a few days and look what happens!!!!!

Nicking (sorry recycling) signs and now Hitler gets mentioned.

I personally would not remove anything. I have, however, parked up where there was a no overnight parking sign. Usually I tuck the van in tight against the sign if possible, so that I can say that I did not see it.

If the sign is official and accompanied by the information as to why and who decrees no overnighting then I obey it. If it is just a sign on its own, then I believe that it has no basis in law. I am willing to risk prosecution and will fight any court action in that case.

I have just returned from a few nights wilding and had a conversation with a local busybody who said that the Police would move me on if they saw me 'camping'. This lady is on the village committee of a local village and had no idea of a campervan or motorhome. She was amazed that they have toilets and showers (what did she think we did for a toilet ) This same area used to have a problem with fly tipping, which reduced after the wilders started giving vehicle details to the local council officers. She was not happy when I told her about it and that it would start again if we were banned. I deliberately stayed one more night to see if we would be bothered by the Police, as I had the feeling that she is the one causing problems for wildies. John Thompson fell foul of somebody in this spot recently. Anyway, we had another quiet and peaceful (but very frosty) night.


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## Higgy (Mar 2, 2011)

*Film : Book; Play:*

Random House one of the largest Book Publishers have been on the telephone.

It would seem we have the ideal content for a
best seller.  

The following categories just fell into place. 

Degenerate Sex
Riding School
The Royal Family
Dogging

Immigrants
Gypsies
Metal Theft
Gang Masters

Politics
Hitler
Nazis
Neighbourhood Watch ( busy bodies)

No animals were harmed during this production.


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## John H (Mar 5, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> Really John?
> 
> Are you sure this has any relevance?
> 
> ...


 

Don't know what you have been looking up but part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 deals in great detail with the right of local authorities to enforce parking regulations. I'd check again if I were you.


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## John H (Mar 5, 2011)

Tbear said:


> Are we taking this a bit far. It seems to be a mad moment of rebellion against what could well have been a bit of totally unfair bureaucracy. No imigrants. No vadalism(Bracket left in place).No pain or suffering, just a small theft for no personal gain except a bit of personal satisfaction. MichaelU said that he was "Shocked at his action".  Therefore he was in no way saying it wto take as the corrrect action to take or encourageing others to take similar action. He also had the courage to own up to it and take the flack.
> 
> JohnH
> Yes I do complain about about local Gangmasters Keep ILLEGAL imigrants, 8 to a room and more that 30 to a terrraced house. Paying them less than minimum wages. This happened locally and was reported in the nation press. I fail to see the comparrison.
> ...


 
The point is, where do you draw the line? A "small theft" to you is mindless vandalism to others. No doubt the youths who vandalise bus shelters can justify it in terms of art rather than crime - and illegal immigrants will no doubt say that it is unfair that you should enjoy freedoms they don't just because of an accident of birth. Many people who who commit a crime think they are not doing anything wrong - rather that the law is wrong.


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## Tbear (Mar 5, 2011)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Richard
> 
> 1. 2.  Not necessarily.
> WHERE A SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED
> ...


 
John

Thankyou for your efforts to clear the points but I am very sorry the questions where meant to be rhetorical. My point being its all a bit daft. As long as a lone van is parked sensible, with thought for others, overnight and is gone the next day. Where is the harm? I am sure there are a thousand busy bodies who will object, well I am truly sorry they have so little going on in their lives.

As for the arguement that we are braking the law so we are filth - Have you never done 31mph in a built up area, speeding in a built up area, an action which puts  children's lives at risk. If I'm filth for poor parking whats that make you? No, just a complete hypocrite


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## Tbear (Mar 5, 2011)

John H said:


> The point is, where do you draw the line? A "small theft" to you is mindless vandalism to others. No doubt the youths who vandalise bus shelters can justify it in terms of art rather than crime - and illegal immigrants will no doubt say that it is unfair that you should enjoy freedoms they don't just because of an accident of birth. Many people who who commit a crime think they are not doing anything wrong - rather that the law is wrong.


 
John as a rule I find it best not to draw lines and admit to a grey area.


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## coolasluck (Mar 5, 2011)

John H said:


> The point is, where do you draw the line? A "small theft" to you is mindless vandalism to others. No doubt the youths who vandalise bus shelters can justify it in terms of art rather than crime - and illegal immigrants will no doubt say that it is unfair that you should enjoy freedoms they don't just because of an accident of birth. Many people who who commit a crime think they are not doing anything wrong - rather that the law is wrong.


 



A bit differant John bus shelters are useful to the public these signs are not.I hope for your sake you dont get them there in sunny spain.


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## defitzi (Mar 5, 2011)

*parking legitimate stop*



John H said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. Now I know why there are fewer and fewer places available for us to legitimately stop.


 U are defeatist  that how Hitler nearly won! the damn signs are the product of nasty dirty dictatorial little "I dont -you shouldn't"  little nothings in grey suits..... tear down all such signs and keep tearing them dowm and keep on... until, they give up! 
And if yoiu can't pull 'em down just ignore them!
Meantime Let's find oiut who uis sellin g them to the grey suits and deal with them- there has to be somebody behind the proliferation of these signs other than the cARAVAN CL;UB OR THE mOTOR CARAVAN CLUB , HOTELIERS , b& b LANDLADIES AND SUCHLIKE!


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## LizQ1958 (Mar 6, 2011)

Although what you did was wrong, it can be said that parking up was better than having an accident; we have driven miles and finding nowhere to stay parked in a layby clearly stating "no overnight parking!" because we were too tired to drive further. Would they then charge you for 'doing the sensible thing'?

Liz


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## John H (Mar 6, 2011)

Tbear said:


> My point being its all a bit daft. As long as a lone van is parked sensible, with thought for others, overnight and is gone the next day. Where is the harm? I am sure there are a thousand busy bodies who will object, well I am truly sorry they have so little going on in their lives.


 
I agree - but the original poster admitted criminal damage, which is a bit different.


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## John H (Mar 6, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> A bit differant John bus shelters are useful to the public these signs are not.I hope for your sake you dont get them there in sunny spain.


 
Its not as simple as that. In my days as a councillor I actually got requests from people to remove bus shelters because they were an eyesore or encouraged urinating drunks or rowdy youths. They may be useful to you but not to others - and if you don't regad something as useful it does not give you the right to commit criminal damage, which is where we came in.

Yes there are similar signs in Spain, yes people ignore them and yes some people tear them down - all of which annoys the authorities even more and as a result, fewer and fewer places along the coast are now open to us. But away from the coast there is not the same problem (probably because there are fewer motorhomes anyway) so that is the way we will be travelling home, stopping legitimately along the way. We probably won't get wi-fi at most of these, so, once again, I will have to bow out of this conversation for a bit after today.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 6, 2011)

John H said:


> Its not as simple as that. In my days as a councillor I actually got requests from people to remove bus shelters because they were an eyesore or encouraged urinating drunks or rowdy youths. They may be useful to you but not to others - and if you don't regad something as useful it does not give you the right to commit criminal damage, which is where we came in.
> 
> Yes there are similar signs in Spain, yes people ignore them and yes some people tear them down - all of which annoys the authorities even more and as a result, fewer and fewer places along the coast are now open to us. But away from the coast there is not the same problem (probably because there are fewer motorhomes anyway) so that is the way we will be travelling home, stopping legitimately along the way. We probably won't get wi-fi at most of these, so, once again, I will have to bow out of this conversation for a bit after today.


I think councillor says it all.
My experience of councillors is...not really interested in the real issues that concern the people but will make them selves seen on crap that they can deal with quickly.
For instance, I live next door to a guest house where it has been know to have a 'rowdy' party or two. Do the council give a s*it. NO! But catch you displaying a sign asking the guests to "show some respect" is way out of order.
Do us all a favour..'councillor' and STAY in Spain!


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## Canalsman (Mar 6, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> I think councillor says it all.
> My experience of councillors is...not really interested in the real issues that concern the people but will make them selves seen on crap that they can deal with quickly.
> For instance, I live next door to a guest house where it has been know to have a 'rowdy' party or two. Do the council give a s*it. NO! But catch you displaying a sign asking the guests to "show some respect" is way out of order.
> Do us all a favour..'councillor' and STAY in Spain!


 
Uncalled for and rude ...


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## Tbear (Mar 6, 2011)

BecksP said:


> Having seen how (reasonably) law abiding motorhome users are being marginalised by bureaucrats who are doing little to support the manufacturers of motorhomes in this country, I am ashamed that our local car park and lay by are being handed over to those degenerates who engage in public sexual activity.
> 
> I live near a Cheshire beauty spot once frequented by Motorhomes where we have been banned, with the ubiquitous signage, for no known reason as far as the local residents can see, unless the council ordered a bulk purchase of them. The area is now popular for "dogging" where cars owners use the venue for casual sex discarding no end of paraphernalia behind when they leave.
> 
> ...


 
Hi BecksP

I know just what you mean. I have tried to get a local Aire for some time. Found a perfect spot. Beautiful spot on the banks of the river Nene, toilet, just off an A1 junction, only to find out that the gays, doggers and junkies have taken it over.

Off to France to do a bit of research on the Aires this summer and hope to restart the campaign later in the year. "Parking" are being a bit ignorant at present and ignoring my emails. Hope to send some photos to his boss when I get back. See if I can stir things up a bit.

Sorry for the digression.


Richard


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## maingate (Mar 6, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> I think councillor says it all.
> My experience of councillors is...not really interested in the real issues that concern the people but will make them selves seen on crap that they can deal with quickly.
> For instance, I live next door to a guest house where it has been know to have a 'rowdy' party or two. Do the council give a s*it. NO! But catch you displaying a sign asking the guests to "show some respect" is way out of order.
> Do us all a favour..'councillor' and STAY in Spain!


 
You have already admitted to being chucked off one m/home forum. I expect the same will happen here eventually with comments like that.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 6, 2011)

Canalsman said:


> Uncalled for and rude ...


 
i agree totaly uncalled for ,there is no need for nastyness not on here .


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## maureenandtom (Mar 6, 2011)

Well, it's not too bad.  It's not like he was called a thieving, hypocritical lawbreaker.   We didn't bother ourselves too much when the OP was so accused.  Why are we being selective?

This sort of comment goes with being a politician, isn't that right?


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## coolasluck (Mar 6, 2011)

Got to say,John H, i think being a councilor would have been something i would have kept to myself

Maybe thats why he is spending most of his time in sunny spain,couldnt be he is there on the back of expenses could it. lol


At least we can have a heated debate here without the thread closing now,a return to the good old days!! Excellent!


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## coolasluck (Mar 6, 2011)

Tbear said:


> Hi BecksP
> 
> I know just what you mean. I have tried to get a local Aire for some time. Found a perfect spot. Beautiful spot on the banks of the river Nene, toilet, just off an A1 junction, only to find out that the gays, doggers and junkies have taken it over.
> 
> ...


 




Becks and T-bear i understand you both completely,we have had 2 incidents whilst wilding one was the hot hatch variety and the other was doggers and weirdos.
If only we could have law and order in this country and one that would see these freaks in court and then to have to sign the sex offenders register.Then again rapists seem to have more rights than us,just release them to reoffend,bloody great aint it,this is modern day britain.Nobody seems to give a toss.I personally would not wild near a public toilet and tend to avoid a lot of car parks.I think you need to have a happy medium where you wild away from a major town and well away from a main trunk road,the incident we came accross was off the a38.If stuck i would advise a nice peaceful road in a nice part of the town i think you would have a better nights sleep,there is nothing worse than being on edge to give you a restless nights kip.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 6, 2011)

Canalsman said:


> Uncalled for and rude ...


 I can only assume that you have had no problem with your local council? Maybe you'll change your mind when you do.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 6, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> Becks and T-bear i understand you both completely,we have had 2 incidents whilst wilding one was the hot hatch variety and the other was doggers and weirdos.
> If only we could have law and order in this country and one that would see these freaks in court and then to have to sign the sex offenders register.Then again rapists seem to have more rights than us,just release them to reoffend,bloody great aint it,this is modern day britain.Nobody seems to give a toss.I personally would not wild near a public toilet and tend to avoid a lot of car parks.I think you need to have a happy medium where you wild away from a major town and well away from a main trunk road,the incident we came accross was off the a38.If stuck i would advise a nice peaceful road in a nice part of the town i think you would have a better nights sleep,there is nothing worse than being on edge to give you a restless nights kip.


 Carefull coolasluck, they don't like people to have an opinion.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 7, 2011)

i agree with tbear there are some lovely overnight places that have been taken over with the low lives he mentioned all three of them , but that should be delt with by the police first off and then by the council .,there was one such layby near us ,secluded nicely off the road and guess what full of undesireables but the local council have cut all the trees down and solved that problem and the local cops park up there now .as for keeping your past employment a secret no i used to be  in the west yorkshire police caused me untold problems in the past but i would never deny the fact .so why should an ex councelor do so. by the way we have never had any greif from the council or police for that matter .but the doggers druggies and the lower end of the gay comunity  notice i say lower end not the decent ones that keep there relationships were they should be, and the hot hatch brigade these are the ones that we ought to be sorting out not the silly little notices the councils put up that dont realy affect us . ps as for having an opinion we all have that and have voiced it on lots of posts thats why we have forums


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## zipnolan (Mar 7, 2011)

On my recent visit to Germany I was asked by 3 fellow campervaners that they would love to visit the UK (due to recent showing of the "Coast" series in Germany) and what was it like ?
Well I told them not to bother because of our "no overnight" rules and expensive rip-off campsites and just to prove myself right on my return I found a fine for £50 sitting on the mat because I slept for 5 1/4hrs on some MOTO services on the M2, it was at midnight and the carpark was totaly empty, it was raining/windy at the time and I thought for safety reasons to pull over and grab some shut eye. The "stelleplatz" sceme and the "Aires" sceme puts us to shame and I hang my head in shame when telling others not to visit us because they will come away with a bad taste in their mouths.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 7, 2011)

mandrake said:


> i agree with tbear there are some lovely overnight places that have been taken over with the low lives he mentioned all three of them , but that should be delt with by the police first off and then by the council .,there was one such layby near us ,secluded nicely off the road and guess what full of undesireables but the local council have cut all the trees down and solved that problem and the local cops park up there now .as for keeping your past employment a secret no i used to be  in the west yorkshire police caused me untold problems in the past but i would never deny the fact .so why should an ex councelor do so. by the way we have never had any greif from the council or police for that matter .but the doggers druggies and the lower end of the gay comunity  notice i say lower end not the decent ones that keep there relationships were they should be, and the hot hatch brigade these are the ones that we ought to be sorting out not the silly little notices the councils put up that dont realy affect us . ps as for having an opinion we all have that and have voiced it on lots of posts thats why we have forums


 OH MY GOD. Not another opinion. I can't wait to get home tonight to see what the P.C. Brigade make of this one. I can almost hear the taking of deep breathes as I type, I can imagine the 'crows feet' wrinkles in their forehead as they hammer on their keyboards. Mandrake, You will get someone telling you that you have been rude..or..embrace these people...or live and let live..or something equally P.C. and nonsense.
Keep the opinions coming all you who still believe in the freedom of speech and still believe that we still live in a democratic country.


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## David & Ann (Mar 7, 2011)

zipnolan said:


> On my recent visit to Germany I was asked by 3 fellow campervaners that they would love to visit the UK (due to recent showing of the "Coast" series in Germany) and what was it like ?
> Well I told them not to bother because of our "no overnight" rules and expensive rip-off campsites and just to prove myself right on my return I found a fine for £50 sitting on the mat because I slept for 5 1/4hrs on some MOTO services on the M2, it was at midnight and the carpark was totaly empty, it was raining/windy at the time and I thought for safety reasons to pull over and grab some shut eye. The "stelleplatz" sceme and the "Aires" sceme puts us to shame and I hang my head in shame when telling others not to visit us because they will come away with a bad taste in their mouths.


 
This is the only Country in the world that I know of, that charges parking on a Highway rest stop. Disgraceful.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 7, 2011)

yes the motorway services are theives rouges and vagabonds not only with the parking but the food and petrol prices well if you can call rubber bacon and eggs food its not only motor homes and car owners they fleece but think off a trucker that may have no option but to stop because he has run out of driving time he will have no option but to stop on one of these parking areas we can push on untill we find a slip road off the motorway and park in a layby


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## maureenandtom (Mar 7, 2011)

Look, we're talking about “parking” here, yes?   Specifically about parking of motor homes but it's just parking, yes?

Medway council lose more than 90% of appeals against their parking tickets.

These councils have figures not too different.   Nationally, councils lose 70%.

1. Chorley, Lancs - 96% 
2. Sevenoaks, Kent - 95% 
3. Medway - 91% 
4. Maidstone, Kent - 90% 
5. East Sussex - 88% 
6. NW Leicestershire - 88% 
7. Worcester - 85% 
7. Gateshead - 85% 
9. Slough - 84% 
10.Charnwood, Leics - 84%

Now, why or why in the face of official figures showing that, nationally, almost three quarters of appealed parking tickets have been incompetently applied by councils …?

Why, or why do some of us believe that when it comes to camping cars rather than just cars the council reverse their normal incompetence and get it right 100% of the time?

Why, or why do we do that?   The only answer that I come up with is that we are frightened to challenge them.   We're frightened also of those among us who will accuse us of spoiling it for the rest of them.

Any other theories?

Parking tribunal chief tells councils to show common sense - Telegraph


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## Tbear (Mar 7, 2011)

mandrake said:


> i agree with tbear there are some lovely overnight places that have been taken over with the low lives he mentioned all three of them , but that should be delt with by the police first off and then by the council .,there was one such layby near us ,secluded nicely off the road and guess what full of undesireables but the local council have cut all the trees down and solved that problem and the local cops park up there now .as for keeping your past employment a secret no i used to be  in the west yorkshire police caused me untold problems in the past but i would never deny the fact .so why should an ex councelor do so. by the way we have never had any greif from the council or police for that matter .but the doggers druggies and the lower end of the gay comunity  notice i say lower end not the decent ones that keep there relationships were they should be, and the hot hatch brigade these are the ones that we ought to be sorting out not the silly little notices the councils put up that dont realy affect us . ps as for having an opinion we all have that and have voiced it on lots of posts thats why we have forums


 
Hi Mandrake

Thanks for the correction. I should have clearly stated that it was the "lower end", of the Gay community, got a bit carried away. I did not want to offend any of the gay members of the forum. Sorry if I did.

Richard


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 7, 2011)

yes i know what you meant ,and i think most members do also.its the low life in all walks of life that cause the problems


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## coolasluck (Mar 7, 2011)

mandrake said:


> not only with the parking but the food and petrol prices well if you can call rubber bacon and eggs food its not only motor homes and car owners they fleece but think off a trucker
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 7, 2011)

i wouldent touch motorway slop ,in fact its very rare i eat out, as they say nowt nicer than home cooked scran. not only that i am a tight fisted old yorky at heart nothing nicer than wife made food   i love it parked up frying the bacon with the windows open and watching all the passers by drooling at the mouth


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## BambiOwner (Mar 7, 2011)

I have been reading this thread with interest, some of the comments are justified and I personally do not think that any one should remove any sign if it is not their own property, but each to their own. I have one question what or who are the hot hatch brigade?
I really enjoy coming onto this site but I do not like it when people have to get personal when they reply to any thread. There is no need for it
Bambiowner


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## Deleted member 3802 (Mar 7, 2011)

BambiOwner said:


> I have been reading this thread with interest, some of the comments are justified and I personally do not think that any one should remove any sign if it is not their own property, but each to their own. I have one question what or who are the* hot hatch brigade?*
> I really enjoy coming onto this site but I do not like it when people have to get personal when they reply to any thread. There is no need for it
> Bambiowner


 the school boy racers?? young foolish drivers who's parents have more money than sense


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## BambiOwner (Mar 7, 2011)

Old_Arthur said:


> the school boy racers?? young foolish drivers who's parents have more money than sense


 
Oh thanks for that


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## barryd (Mar 7, 2011)

As regards the parking "fine" at motorway service stations such as MOTO.  Its not a fine its an invoice.  Its probably from a private company or their solicitors that have the rights from MOTO to dish out these so called fines.  Do a search and the internet is littered with posts about it then stick it in the bin and ignore all the threatening letters.  They wont take you to court, its not worth it.  Dont admit to it either or enter any correspondence with them.

As for taking the sign down.  I dont think I would have done it but mainly because I would have probably cocked it up unless i knocked it down with the van.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 7, 2011)

BambiOwner said:


> I have been reading this thread with interest, some of the comments are justified and I personally do not think that any one should remove any sign if it is not their own property, but each to their own. I have one question what or who are the hot hatch brigade?
> I really enjoy coming onto this site but I do not like it when people have to get personal when they reply to any thread. There is no need for it
> Bambiowner


 they are the ones that pass there test buy a little hatch back car make it look somewhat silly with a body kit and ruddy noisy then fill it with other kids then drive it so fast they loose controle and kill each other


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## maureenandtom (Mar 7, 2011)

*Long Post.  Please read it.*



John H said:


> Its not as simple as that. In my days as a councillor I actually got requests from people to remove bus shelters because they were an eyesore or encouraged urinating drunks or rowdy youths. They may be useful to you but not to others - and if you don't regad something as useful it does not give you the right to commit criminal damage, which is where we came in.
> 
> *Yes there are similar signs in Spain, yes people ignore them and yes some people tear them down - all of which annoys the authorities even more and as a result, fewer and fewer places along the coast are now open to us.* But away from the coast there is not the same problem (probably because there are fewer motorhomes anyway) so that is the way we will be travelling home, stopping legitimately along the way. We probably won't get wi-fi at most of these, so, once again, I will have to bow out of this conversation for a bit after today.



I take it you mean Spanish people tear them down?  Well, if what this Spanish poster says is true, then what do you expect them to do?  Give in as easily as we do?  

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/spain/4101-santander-warning.html

Please look at Post Number 7.   I'll reproduce a bit here.

QUOTE
I am posting on behalf of the 6000 members of the Spanish web site:

http://www.acpasion.net

We would like to say hello to you all and also to request your assistance. As many of you are already aware, here in Spain, Motorhome and Camping Car users are having a pretty tough time as in some regions not only is it forbidden for Motorhomes and Campers to drive through some towns but we are also at risk of receiving a heavy fine of approximately 600 Euros (approx. 400 Pounds Sterling) if you even dare to challenge their illegal rules.

Yes, the rules on which this is based are completely illegal as there is a so called Traffic Instruction 08-V-74, which covers these laws and which mentions Motorhomes and Camping Cars in particular, and where it clearly states that parking and overnight stays are permitted in any part of Spain.

These Laws, which have been passed by Spanish Parliament, are of compulsory enforcement but, nevertheless, many regions choose to ignore them and dictate rules which are contrary to the Law but favour the owners of Camp Sites with the aim of forcing the users of Motorhomes and Camping Cars to use their installations and charge them really abusive prices. 

We would ask you to join us in a protest against these measures which are more in keeping with a dictatorship than a democracy, as not only do we have to tolerate this imposition but the Spanish Government does not even take measures to intervene and enforce the legal Law which belongs to all Spaniards.

Only after many attempts have we begun to realise that by ourselves we cannot fight for this type of tourism which we so much love; we wish to be able to park and stay overnight in an orderly but complete freedom. We are neither delinquents nor fringe dwellers but this is how we are treated. Besides legal measures paid out of our own pockets we wish to make it known via a boycott on those towns or regions which are breaking the law, that no Motorhome and Camping Car users will visit as tourists if they do not change their politics and start to obey the law.

END OF QUOTE

Please go and read the entire post.  The entire thread if you have time.  And if you can read and translate the Spanish Law quoted I will be eternally grateful.


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## David & Ann (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes, the rules on which this is based are completely illegal as there is a so called Traffic Instruction 08-V-74, which covers these laws and which mentions Motorhomes and Camping Cars in particular, and where it clearly states that parking and overnight stays are permitted in any part of Spain.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Maureenandtom. I opened up "acpasion.net" as it is in Spanish, I was unable to identify which of the several items shown is related to your above post which I have cut and pasted. I thought I would print it out and carry it with me in case I was approached regards Parking and Overnight stays. Perhaps you could help further.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm a squirrel.  I keep all sorts of documents and I know I once had a copy of this document.   I had a total computer failure about a year ago and lost a lot of stuff but I'm sure I've got this backed up somewhere on a CD.  I've got a few of them too.

Starting this afternoon, I'll do a search and see if I can find it.  I do seem to remember a lot of discussion about this - not all of it in English and not all of it on sites we would normally use.  I think there were several consequences - one of which was that some - or maybe many -Spanish vans now have a notice saying something like "I'm not camping, I'm parking."

I will look for it.  I know that I'm not the only one who has a copy.  Anybody else help?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2011)

David and Ann,

I couldn't wait and I'll carry on looking.  However, I googled it and I came up with this:

2008.01.28 Normativa Trafico Autocaravanas - 08/V-74

If this link works, will you let me know, - and let me know if it doesn't too.  If it shows what the Spanish OP says it does then it could be useful.   I don't think I translated it at the time.


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## zipnolan (Mar 8, 2011)

zipnolan said:


> On my recent visit to Germany I was asked by 3 fellow campervaners that they would love to visit the UK (due to recent showing of the "Coast" series in Germany) and what was it like ?
> Well I told them not to bother because of our "no overnight" rules and expensive rip-off campsites and just to prove myself right on my return I found a fine for £50 sitting on the mat because I slept for 5 1/4hrs on some MOTO services on the M2, it was at midnight and the carpark was totaly empty, it was raining/windy at the time and I thought for safety reasons to pull over and grab some shut eye. The "stelleplatz" sceme and the "Aires" sceme puts us to shame and I hang my head in shame when telling others not to visit us because they will come away with a bad taste in their mouths.


 
Please, please, please when driving to Dover remember to  empty your cassette toilet at Medway services M2 eastbound............ a gift from us all.


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## David & Ann (Mar 8, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> David and Ann,
> 
> I couldn't wait and I'll carry on looking.  However, I googled it and I came up with this:
> 
> ...


 
Hi Maureenandtom. Yes, I managed to open it up. Tried to print it out but was unable to. Then tried to copy and paste it to my files, hat was not possible as it would highlight for coping. The tried to save it directly from the Website, which it excepted. I then went to my files, found it there, then tried to get a print out and was denied access as there was a virus in it. So I deleted it immediately. It does come up on the website but cannot get a copy of it. Perhaps someone on here can HELP. Thanks anyway.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2011)

Hi David and Ann,

Seguimiento incidencias Instrucción 08/V-74 - AC Pasión | Portal Independiente Autocaravanista

That's one of the threads in acpasion about it.   I'm worn out getting to it.  If you can translate any of it then will you let me know?  I will go back and have another look at it but many eyes make light work, yes?

The actual traffic order.  I went through the same process you did and I now have it as a PDF file (800K) and if you want it then I'll find a way of getting it to you.   My virus checker says it is virus free.  I use the Talk Talk on-line paid-for checker and I trust it.

As a PDF file it looks just like the original does, ie a scanned copy of a printed document.  Somebody with more skill than me might be able to get it into a word processor for translation but I can't.   If you go through the acpasion thread then you might get a link to a better copy or links to more threads about it.

Let me know if you want my PDF file.

Tom


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## David & Ann (Mar 8, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> Hi David and Ann,
> 
> Seguimiento incidencias Instrucción 08/V-74 - AC Pasión | Portal Independiente Autocaravanista
> 
> ...


 
Hi Tom, I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail it to me. david1942ryan@yahoo.co.uk. Thanks a lot.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2011)

You should have it now.  I truly hope it is useful.   I don't know if the original poster is still on ecpasion but it might be helpful to do a search on him

Tom


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## maureenandtom (Mar 8, 2011)

David,

I tried twice to send you the file.  I got this both times.  Is this your correct email address?


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## David & Ann (Mar 9, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> David,
> 
> I tried twice to send you the file.  I got this both times.  Is this your correct email address?


 
Try this e-mail address; david1942ryan@yahoo.com.au
Thanks again


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## maureenandtom (Mar 9, 2011)

Thanks David,

Done


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## spatey (Mar 9, 2011)

Brill keep it up I am 63 sorry to say now, I hope I have the balls when I cross  a sign just like you did, we need more just like you,
  I think that you are a inspiration to all well done


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## John H (Mar 12, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> Got to say,John H, i think being a councilor would have been something i would have kept to myself
> 
> Maybe thats why he is spending most of his time in sunny spain,couldnt be he is there on the back of expenses could it. lol
> 
> ...


 
Well, you go offline for a few days and the insults fly! Not that I mind being insulted but you come dangerously close to accusing me of criminal activity. Let us get a few things straight:
1. During my eight years as a councillor I drew precisely zero expenses.
2. If you are losing the argument it is usual to start insulting the opposition - and the law is very clear on criminal damage as I have pointed out before.
3. During my time as a councillor I argued strongly against banning notices and was often successful.
4. If you object to what a council is doing, why not get off your backside, get elected and try to change things - as I did. If you dont get elected it will be because the majority voted for someone else and he has the right, along with his fellows, to approve rules that you dont agree with. 

Once again, I will probably be bowing out of the discussion for a while because I am not sure when I will be online again as I travel back to England. But in the meantime, ponder the above. I do, however, agree with the bit about allowing free speech to prevail.


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## Tbear (Mar 12, 2011)

John H said:


> Well, you go offline for a few days and the insults fly! Not that I mind being insulted but you come dangerously close to accusing me of criminal activity. Let us get a few things straight:
> 1. During my eight years as a councillor I drew precisely zero expenses.
> 2. If you are losing the argument it is usual to start insulting the opposition - and the law is very clear on criminal damage as I have pointed out before.
> 3. During my time as a councillor I argued strongly against banning notices and was often successful.
> ...


 
Hi John H

I cannot say I always agree with you but, 4. If you object to what a council is doing, why not get off your backside, get elected and try to change things, I could not agree more.

Less insults and whining and more positive action is what we need

Richard


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## Pollik (Mar 12, 2011)

Having nothing better to do, I have just read the whole of this thread.

Wow.

I think that, increasingly, the tax paying public are becoming intolerant jobsworths at local councils and are beginning to fight back.  Not only do they misapply parking regulations but are notoriously lax at keeping signage up to date or don't really care that signage is unclear.  There is/was a famous bus lane in Bath that was pulling in (I forget the exact figure) something like £20,000 a day.  So, no real incentive to make the signage do its alleged job then.

My own local council has an underground car park and right next to a fire exit, there is a sign asking if you have "Paid and Displayed"...you won't see the sign unless you are trying to use the exit.  I have lost count of the times I have seen conflicting signs, just one example being "Motorhome £5 for overnight parking" next to another sign "No overnight parking".

I do not start from a position that the council (or anyone else) is necessarily right or even halfway sensible.

 After having won two court actions (not against authorities) and still losing (the other parties ignored the judgements and the courts did nothing to enforce them), I also have very little faith in the judicial system.  It takes a long time to work through the paperwork and it takes forever to process...and for what?  In my case, they were pyrrhic victories and, frankly pointless.  The irony is that my partner is now a magistrate!

I don't think I would have done the same as the OP (for my partner's sake, I cannot afford to have a criminal record), but I applaud him.  Direct action is becoming the only way that 'they' will listen.  Civil disobedience is a long established tradition in western countries.  Even Arthur Dent lay down in front of a bulldozer, right before the Earth was destroyed to may way for a hyperspace bypass!!


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## Tony Lee (Mar 12, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> ...
> Tony.  It's just a bit much when you call somebody a thief.   Especially coming from somebody who is profiting from the theft of an entire continent from it's rightful owners.   That's a bit like …  Oh!
> ...


 
I think the thief was self confessed so no particular harm in using that description. He/she removed a sign belonging to a legal entity and deprived them of the future use of the sign by dumping it into a bin. Thief certainly fits.

And, no, I'm not British, so reject any notion that I profited from the theft of any country. Think that was totally up to the British wasn't it. Guess I could list the huge number of stolen countries and destroyed cultures, but most of us are of an age where we remember the old chestnut of the sun never setting on ... so no need to list them is there.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 12, 2011)

Tony Lee said:


> I think the thief was self confessed so no particular harm in using that description. He/she removed a sign belonging to a legal entity and deprived them of the future use of the sign by dumping it into a bin. Thief certainly fits.   . . .


 
Not necessarily.

1)   A personís appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest ó

(a)

   if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or . . .

Theft Act 1968


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## maureenandtom (Mar 12, 2011)

John H said:


> Well, you go offline for a few days and the insults fly! Not that I mind being insulted  . . .



You, Sir, are the hypocrite.  Have you no shame?






Shot at 2011-03-12


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## Tbear (Mar 13, 2011)

Who is the bigger criminal

1,  The people who spend millions of pounds of our money on making these hugely complicated rules that most of us will never have the time or the patience to wade through in order to find out which side of the law we are on.

2,  The council officials who ignore their own rules and slap signs when and where they wish to.

3,  The hypocrites who seem to imply they never bend the rules but are very happy to condemn those who have the courage to admit to being mortal now and again.

Richard


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## Pollik (Mar 13, 2011)

While I have respect for people who know what they are talking about (not experts, people who really know), I don't have much automatic respect for authority as such...they are quite simply wrong or corrupt far too often for that.  Respect has to be earned.

Recently, Westminster council decided to outlaw homelessness.  They didn't decide to end it, just make it illegal.  One can be fined £500 for giving food to a homeless person.  If I lived in Westminster, I would be breaking the law...and making sure it reached the national news.

Whoa...I can feel a controversial rant coming on!



Polly


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## Tony Lee (Mar 13, 2011)

> Well, you go offline for a few days and the insults fly! Not that I mind being insulted . . .



Being insulted isn't much of a deal unless one respects the opinion of the one doing the insulting. Some of the most enjoyable exchanges on these sort of forums come from being insulted.


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## UKAl (Mar 13, 2011)

Well done - everyone should do it! I wonder how long it would take to remove a hight barrier.......


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## The Grand Wanderer (Mar 13, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> David and Ann,
> 
> I couldn't wait and I'll carry on looking.  However, I googled it and I came up with this:
> 
> ...



Well here it is perhaps you or some one with the linguistic skills could tell us less fortunate exactly what is says.














































Regards
Wanderer


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 13, 2011)

*English Translation 08/V-74*

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74 FROM THE SPANISH DIRECTOR GENERAL OF TRAFFIC RELATIVE TO MOTORHOMES 

MINISTRY OF INTERIOR

Subject: Motorhomes 

Instruction 08/V-74

The steady growth that has been experienced in recent years in the use of motorhomes in Spain together with the lack of specific regulations of some aspects related to this activity, has led to the adoption at the plenary session of the Senate for a motion urging the Government to take the necessary measures to support the development of this practice and regulate the use of motorhomes. 

For this reason, the Director General of Traffic has recognised the need to collect and interpret in a single document, all regulatory aspects that relate to motorhomes, and to include in traffic and motor vehicle legislation. 

1. - CONCEPT 

Annex II of the General Rules of Vehicles, approved by Royal Decree 2822/1998, of December 23, defines a motor home as "a special purpose vehicle built, including living accommodation, and containing at least the following equipment: seats and table, beds and bunk beds that can be converted into seats, kitchen and wardrobes or the like. This equipment will be permanently fixed or attached to the living compartment. The seats and the table can be designed to be easily disassembled. " 

This and other definitions of “vehicles” are the result of the disappearance of any existing guidelines on the matter. Specifically the Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001 by which technical progress is adapted to Ruling 70/156/EEC on the approximation of laws of Member States concerning the approval of motor vehicles and trailers, paragraph 5.1 of section A of Annex II refers to a motorhome as "any special category M vehicle manufactured to include accommodation with the following minimum equipment: seats and table, beds that may be converted from the seats, kitchen and wardrobes. This equipment will be firmly fixed or attached to the habitable zone, although the table may be designed to be easily removable." 

Category M vehicles ("motor vehicles with at least four wheels, designed and manufactured for the transportation of passengers") and although the Ruling (116/2001/CEE) does not say so explicitly, it can be inferred that having maximum capacity for eight seats (excluding the driver), we are referring to M1 vehicles. However, section 1 of section C of Annex II Instruction 2001/116/EC, referring to the types of bodywork of passenger cars (M1), mentions the following: AA saloon, AB saloon with a rear hatch, AC shooting break, AD coupé, AE Convertible and AF Multi Use, not referring to Motorhomes in the said paragraph 1, but does so in paragraph 5, within another category of vehicles called "special vehicles" (1). 

Therefore, allowing that it deals with vehicles of category M1, the body/coachwork is not included in the category for passenger cars but in the category of so-called "special vehicles", which is not surprising since they are built on the chassis of commercial vehicles used commonly for the manufacture of vans and light trucks, where the length typically ranges between 5.50 m. and 8.00m, the average height is around 3.00 m. and the maximum permissible weight is very frequently 3,500 kg, and in some cases even more, characteristics that have nothing to do with the usual passenger car, and which affects manoeuvrability, on  breaking distance, behaviour turning, etc. 

Therefore, notwithstanding the existence of a series of vans, where the interior has been conditioned with accommodation, commonly known as "Camper", it can be concluded that motorhomes are normally "special purpose vehicles of category M1", whose existence is referred to, among others, in Article 2.2 of the Instruction 2001/116/EC of the commission, different to passenger cars and therefore worthy of a specific regulation in some precise areas such as in determining the maximum speed limits on roads outside of town. To the contrary, in other aspects such as circulation, stopping and parking, these are governed by the rules applicable in general to all motor vehicles. 

2. - MAXIMUM SPEED 

Article 48.1 a) General Rules of Circulation, approved by Royal Decree 1428/2003, of November 21 establishes the speed limits for motor vehicles on main roads out of town under the following terms: 

A)  Motor Vehicles 

1.On motorways and freeways (autovias): passenger cars and motorcycles 120km / h; buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 100km / h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers of up to 750 kg., 90 Km / h; remaining passenger cars with trailer: 80 km / h.

2.On conventional roads marked as freeways (autovias) and on the rest of conventional roads as long as these have a hard shoulder of 1.50 m. or more in width, or more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic: passenger cars and motorcycles, 100 Km / h;   buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 90 Km / h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 80km / h.

3.On the rest of roads, out of town: passenger cars and motorcycles 90 Km / h: buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 80km / h, 70 km / h. lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 70km / h.

4.On any kind of road where circulation of traffic is permitted: three wheel vehicles and quads, 70 km / h. 

As  motorhomes are “special category M1 vehicles" and different to passenger cars, it is considered justified not to apply the same speed limits, outside of town, as passenger cars,  but to apply the speed limits for other vehicles of category M (destined for the transport of passengers), which would result in the following speed limits: 

- On motorways and freeways  ............................................................... 100 Km / h 

- On conventional roads marked as roads for motor vehicles and roads with a hard shoulder of at least 1,50 m. width or with more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic ......................................................................................................... 90 Km / h 

- On the rest of roads, out of town ............................................................ 80 Km / h 

The following speed limits will apply to motorhomes which are driven without trailers, classified on the MOT card with the following codes: 

-  3148 (mixed vehicle/accommodation) 
-  3200 (unspecified motorhome with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.) 
-  3248 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.) 

The motorhomes classified with codes: 

-  3300 (unspecified motorhome with MMA over 3,500 Kg.) 
-  3348 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA over 3,500 Kg.) 
-  2448 (Van with accommodation) 

will be governed by the same speed limits as for lorries (on account of the maximum permissible weight = MMA) and the rest of vans: 90 Km / h on motorways and freeways, and 80 km / h on conventional roads. 

On urban roadways, regardless of the classification code, motorhomes will be subject to the general speed limit for all vehicles of 50km / h, as stipulated in Article 50 of the General Traffic Regulations. 

3. - STOPPING AND PARKING 

Under the heading "Stopping and parking," the General Traffic Regulations regulate in Chapter VIII (Articles 90 to 94), the rules applicable to these manoeuvres, regarding  places where these manoeuvres can be made, method and form of execution, position of vehicle, Municipal Ordinance and prohibited places, which must be observed by all vehicles in general. 

3.1 urban roadways 

Regarding places where stopping and parking in urban streets should be carried out, Article 90.2 of the General Traffic Regulations indicate in the second paragraph what should be observed in effect of the provisions of the ordinances decreed by the Municipal Authorities, in connection with which Article 93 states: 

1. The regime of stopping and parking in urban streets will be regulated by municipal ordinance, and the necessary measures may be taken to prevent the obstruction of traffic, including time limits for the duration of parking or stopping, as well as the precise corrective measures, including the clamping or towing of the vehicle when a valid parking ticket is not displayed which authorises parking in zones limited by time or exceed the time limit granted and until the identity of the driver can be ascertained. 

2. In no event may the municipal ordinance oppose, alter, distort, or cause confusion with the precepts of this regulation.

One of the most frequent complaints made before the Traffic Department by users of motorhomes is the prohibition to park which is applied to these vehicles, in part or in entirety, on the urban streets and which some municipalities incorporate into their ordinances. 

These regulations are made under Article 7 of the articles of the Law on Traffic, Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety, approved by Royal Decree 339/1990 of March 2, which give municipalities a series of competencies,  within that law, including: 


b)   The regulation by Municipal Traffic Ordinance on the use of urban roads, making compatible the fair distribution of parking among all users, with the necessary flow of traffic, as well as the establishment of limited parking, to ensure the rotation of parking, ..” 

Therefore, in the opinion of the General Director of Traffic it is indisputable that the exclusion of certain users must be necessarily motivated and based on reasonable objections such as the external dimensions of the vehicle or the maximum permissible weight (MMA) of the vehicle but not by use of subjective reasons such as:  possible uncivilised behaviour by some users such as noise at night, dumping of garbage or waste water onto the public road, monopolization of public space by erecting structures and furnishings or other situations of abuse against which local authorities have effective legal tools to be used in a non-discriminatory manner against all violators, whether users of motorhomes or any other type of vehicle. 

Motorhome users are permitted to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking in the same conditions and with the same limitations as any other vehicle. 

With regard to the mode and manner of implementation of stopping and parking, Article 91 of the General Traffic Regulations states that these exercises "should be made so that the vehicle does not hamper the circulation of traffic nor is a risk to other users the road, especially observing the positioning of the vehicle and avoiding that the vehicle is able to move in the absence of the driver. 

As to the positioning of the vehicle, the cited Article 92 of the General Traffic Regulations state: 

"1.Stopping and parking will be conducted by placing the vehicle in parallel to the kerb of the street or roadway.  As an exception, an alternative positioning will be permitted when the characteristics of the street or roadway or other circumstances so warrant.

2. Any driver who stops or parks the vehicle must do so in a way that allows a maximum use of the remaining space available. 


3. In the case of a motor vehicle or motorcycle, when the driver has to abandon the vehicle, the following rules should be observed, where applicable:

a) Stop the engine and disconnect the ignition and, if leaving the vehicle, take the necessary precautions to prevent its unauthorized use. 

b) Engage the hand-brake.
. 
c) In a vehicle equipped with gearbox, leave the first gear engaged if parked on an upward slope, and the reverse gear engaged if parked on downward slope, or, in the parking position if automatic
. 
d) When the vehicle is superior to 3,500 kilograms of maximum permissible weight (MMA), a bus or coach or a combination of vehicles, and when stopping or parking is conducted in a place with a marked slope, the driver must also use proper wheel blocks;  stones, bricks or other items not specifically intended for this use cannot be used, nor by resting one of the wheels on the kerb of the pavement, nor by inclining the wheels towards the centre of the road on upward slopes nor outwards on downward slopes. The wheel blocks must be removed from the road after use and prior to driving away.  

The General Traffic Regulations do not establish any other conditions for stopping or parking a vehicle, so, therefore, this General Directorate of Traffic believes that while any vehicle is parked properly, without exceeding markings on the delimitation of the parking space, nor exceeds the time permitted, if any, it is irrelevant whether the occupants are inside the vehicle, and the motorhome is no exception, being sufficient that the activity in the interior does not transcend to the exterior by the setting up of elements which surpass the perimeter of the vehicle such as stalls, awnings, levelling devices, stabilizing devices, etc. 

3.2 intercity routes (Highways) 

Article 90.1 of the General Traffic Regulations defines the places where stopping and parking should be carried out on intercity routes noting that this should be done as far away from the roadway, on the right hand side, leaving part of the hard shoulder free for transit.

In general, on motorways and highways it is forbidden to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking for all vehicles, except in areas specially assigned for these manoeuvres. 

The General Traffic Regulations, Article 91, on stopping and parking on intercity routes concerning the method and manner of implementation already covered in the previous point, as well as the considerations in relation to parking in urban streets and the presence of people inside a vehicle correctly parked, without prejudice to the possibility of parking in areas of service stations or on private land where other conditions can be agreed with the owners. 

Other concepts in some way associated with the parking of motorhomes, such as camping and overnight stays are not included in the rule on circulation of motor vehicles and road safety, therefore, this agency cannot pronounce on the definition or on the implications. 



4. - SEAT-BELT USE AND RESTRAINT DEVICES 

Seat belts or other approved restraint systems, properly fastened by the driver and passengers of motor homes in both urban and intercity routes must be used. 

Failure to meet this obligation by certain people depending on their size and age to match the following requirements: 

1. - Front seats: It is forbidden to circulate with minors under twelve years of age in the front seats unless they use devices approved for that purpose. Exceptionally, when the height of the minor is equal to, or in excess of, 135 cm, children of twelve years may use as such a device the same seat belt for adults that are equipped in the front seats. 

2 .- Other seats: People whose height reaches 135 cm and does not exceed 150 cm may use either an approved restraint system adapted to their height and weight or seat belts for adults that are equipped in the these seats. 

3 .- In motorhomes that are not equipped with approved safety devices specially adapted to the size and weight of the users, children under three years of age will not be permitted to travel and those older than three years that have failed to reach the 135-centimeter, can not take a front seat. 

The rules as set out completely exclude the possibility of occupying the beds or bunks of a motorhome whilst in circulation, due to the obvious risk to the occupants in the event of sudden braking, collision or rollover, but you can occupy seats equipped with approved retention systems, provided that the number of people travelling in the vehicle, either in the cockpit or in the living area, does not exceed the legally permitted places that are recorded in the documentation of the vehicle. 

5. - EQUIPMENT 

The minimum equipment which a motorhome should carry, will be in accordance with Annex XII of the General Rules of Vehicle, as follows: One set of replacement light bulbs, in prime condition and the necessary tools to change the light bulbs; two portable, red, triangle devices to forewarn of danger; a spare wheel or a temporary wheel with the necessary tools required to change the wheel or an alternative system, which offers sufficient guarantee for the mobility of the vehicle. 

Likewise, when drivers leave the vehicle and occupy the road or the hard shoulder on intercity routes a high-visibility reflective vest, certified according to the Royal Decree 1407/1992, of November 20, must be used. 

6. - TECHNICAL INSPECTION (MOT)

According to Royal Decree 711/2006, of June 9, in which certain royal decrees relating to the MOT inspection of vehicles and vehicle spares and parts and the approval of vehicles, has been modified, therefore the General Vehicle Regulations, approved by royal decree 2822/1998 of December 23, the following frequency of inspection to the motorhome and living accommodation: 

Age of vehicle:

- Up to four years: exempt. 
- More than four years: every two years. 
- More than ten years: annual


7. – SERVICE AREAS OR REST AREAS

These are facilities designed specifically to service or host motorhomes providing a range of necessary services for these vehicles, primarily: parking, drinking water supply and place to empty deposits. 

Unlike Camp Sites, service or host areas provide the physical space strictly necessary to park the vehicle and can be publicly or privately owned. 

There are about 60 such facilities in Spain, for which, through the motion by the full Senate on May 9, 2006, the Government was urged to create a traffic road sign within the road signal service area.

The General Directorate of Traffic believes that, without prejudice to the future design and inclusion in the official catalogue of traffic road signs of a specific design indicating the location of a service or host area for motor homes, the current signal S-122 "other services” in the official catalogue of traffic signs added to Annex I of the General Rules of Circulation allows this need to be satisfied by including a simple pictogram.

8. - AUXILIARY TRANSPORT VEHICLES 

It is very common for motorhomes to transport auxiliary vehicles, usually bicycles, a motorcycle or a moped of small cylinder capacity. This practice is authorised provided an approved cycle carrier or platform for this purpose is used and when this overhangs the perimeter of the motorhome, the following conditions are met in accordance with the provisions of Articles 15 of the General Rules of Circulation: 

If it protrudes from the projection in plant of the motorhome, at the rear, up to 10% of its length and if only one vehicle (indivisible load), 15%.

All appropriate precautions should be taken to prevent damage or hazard to other road users, and the protruding element should be protected to minimize damage by possible rubbing against it or collision.

The carrier should be marked by the signal V-20 referred to in Article 173 and whose features are set out in Annex XI of the General Rules of vehicles. This signal is placed at the rear of the cargo so as to constantly be perpendicular to the axis of the vehicle. 

Consultations have also been made on the possibility of a motorhome being allowed to tow a car, that possibility is prohibited by Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles that will not allow circulation of a motor vehicle dragging another, except that this is damaged or broken down and cannot be towed by another specifically intended for that purpose, in which case it is allowed to tow to the nearest town or village where it can be detained without hindering the traffic and always provided they are not travelling on a motorway or highway. 


Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination composed of a motor vehicle and a trailer or semi trailer on which another vehicle is transported, is allowed if the combination meets the conditions for driving on public roads and is approved according to Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum permitted length for these combinations which is that of 18.75 meters for trailers and16.50 meters for semi trailers. 

To be made public for general knowledge. 

Madrid, Jan. 28, 2008 

THE DIRECTOR GENERAL 

Pere Navarro Olivella 

TO BE DISTRIBUTED TO ALL UNITS OF THE AGENCY


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## maureenandtom (Mar 13, 2011)

Thank you John.   And thank you to Grand Wanderer for having the intelligence to put it into General View.   

It seems to me from a quick scan that our Spanish friends are depending on this:

From Part 3

_2.In no event may the municipal ordinance oppose, alter, distort, or cause confusion with the precepts of this regulation.

One of the most frequent complaints made before the Traffic Department by users of motorhomes is the prohibition to park which is applied to these vehicles, in part or in entirety, on the urban streets and which some municipalities incorporate into their ordinances.
_
And in 2 (b) -  though (a) seems to have disappeared . . .

_Motorhome users are permitted to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking in the same conditions and with the same limitations as any other vehicle. 
_
It seems to me that the authors of this document are saying, “Councils may not overrule this regulation” and also that “you may not discriminate against a motorhome just because it is a motorhome”

Seems to me very like a rule I've hoping for for years.


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## The Grand Wanderer (Mar 13, 2011)

Many thanks, very interesting.
I think that there should be a EU directive for the whole of europe, based on this, as we are discriminated against in the UK.
Wanderer


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## bigpieeater (Mar 13, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> You, Sir, are the hypocrite.  Have you no shame?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like maureenandtom. Well pointed out. Councillors with Double Standards, some things will never change...


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## David & Ann (Mar 13, 2011)

*My Sincere Thanks*

My sincere thanks to Maureenandtom, who I first approached for the Spainish Documents, whereby Tom made contact with me over e-mail.
My sincere thanks to The Great Wanderer, who supplied the Spainish version which I have printed out.
My sincere thanks to John Thompson who supplied the English version which I have also printed out.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 14, 2011)

John H said:


> . . .
> 
> Yes there are similar signs in Spain, yes people ignore them and yes some people tear them down - all of which annoys the authorities even more            . . .


 
There you go, John.

It looks like our Spanish friends who say the local authority signs are illegal may well be right.

It seems their councils are as power mad as our system you are proud to defend and have been part of.  May heaven protect us from council people getting annoyed.

Good luck to our Spanish friends.   And good luck to Michael (the OP, if we've forgotten);  I hope he continues removing these possibly illegal signs in Britain too.

John Thompson:   Thanks again for the translation.  May I suggest that you put the translation in the relevant thread in the Spain section?   I would do so myself but wouldn't wish to step on your toes on this.


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 14, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> I really like maureenandtom. Well pointed out. Councillors with Double Standards, some things will never change...


 
you dont have to be a councillor to have double standards ,it suprising how many of us have them


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 14, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> There you go, John.
> 
> It looks like our Spanish friends who say the local authority signs are illegal may well be right.
> 
> ...



No Problem

I have posted in both English and Spanish.


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## David & Ann (Mar 14, 2011)

At Porthtowan, Cornwall, we have two car parks, one is Coucil which you have to pay. They have height barriers. The other is right on the edge of the beach where the Surfer Life guards are. This is a free car park with height barriers. A couple of years ago someone sawed the lock of during the night so that taller vehicles could get in. The Council came the next day and put a new pad lock on. It happened again the following night. The pad lock was sawed off again. To this day the height barriers are open and the place is full with Surfer vans.


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## Canalsman (Mar 14, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> At Porthtowan, Cornwall, we have two car parks, one is Coucil which you have to pay. They have height barriers. The other is right on the edge of the beach where the Surfer Life guards are. This is a free car park with height barriers.


 
Is this the free car park? 50.28710, -5.24027 - Google Maps


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## David & Ann (Mar 14, 2011)

Canalsman said:


> Is this the free car park? 50.28710, -5.24027 - Google Maps


 
Yes Canalsman, spot on. The picture must be at least 2 to 3 years old. I live 250 metres from the beach and walk it daily with the dog. The barrier is still there but the cross bar is in the swung out position. I will double check it and post again tomorrow.


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## bash (Mar 14, 2011)

walter senior said:


> __


 
bloody wonderful!!!!!! oh yes thats what you are.


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## Canalsman (Mar 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> Yes Canalsman, spot on. The picture must be at least 2 to 3 years old. I live 250 metres from the beach and walk it daily with the dog. The barrier is still there but the cross bar is in the swung out position. I will double check it and post again tomorrow.


 
Thanks


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## David & Ann (Mar 15, 2011)

See if you can spot this with google maps. There is a 3rd spot for free parking in Porthtowan. Just before you come to the fork road, one leading to the beach and the other to the Life saving free parking. 100 metres before the forked road is a little bridge going over a stream. Turn right here and 20 metres on your left is an empty space. Nobody knows who owns this land. It has a sign saying to No Parking. No one knows who put the sign up. The Council say it has nothing to do with them as it is private property. It is always full with cars on a good day when the other parking areas are full. A one minute walk to the shops and beach. 
Note: Council car Park. 1st October to 30th April yearly, FREE PARKING. Fixed height barrier.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> See if you can spot this with google maps. There is a 3rd spot for free parking in Porthtowan. Just before you come to the fork road, one leading to the beach and the other to the Life saving free parking. 100 metres before the forked road is a little bridge going over a stream. Turn right here and 20 metres on your left is an empty space. Nobody knows who owns this land. It has a sign saying to No Parking. No one knows who put the sign up. The Council say it has nothing to do with them as it is private property. It is always full with cars on a good day when the other parking areas are full. A one minute walk to the shops and beach.
> Note: Council car Park. 1st October to 30th April yearly, FREE PARKING. Fixed height barrier.


 
You can find the owner of a bit of land on the Land Registry Website.  If you need more detail it is available for a small fee.


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## Canalsman (Mar 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> See if you can spot this with google maps. There is a 3rd spot for free parking in Porthtowan. Just before you come to the fork road, one leading to the beach and the other to the Life saving free parking. 100 metres before the forked road is a little bridge going over a stream. Turn right here and 20 metres on your left is an empty space. Nobody knows who owns this land. It has a sign saying to No Parking. No one knows who put the sign up. The Council say it has nothing to do with them as it is private property. It is always full with cars on a good day when the other parking areas are full. A one minute walk to the shops and beach.
> Note: Council car Park. 1st October to 30th April yearly, FREE PARKING. Fixed height barrier.


 
It's here Porthtowan, Truro - Google Maps

If you zoom in you can read the sign clearly ...

Is overnight parking OK here?


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## David & Ann (Mar 15, 2011)

Canalsman said:


> Is this the free car park? 50.28710, -5.24027 - Google Maps


 
I checked this aftyernoon and the barrier was closed. Spoke to the attendant, who said during winter they shut it but will be opened again for Easter and stay open until September. He also mentioned if it is closed,(Summer time) blow horn and they will unlock it.


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

Well, Maureen and Tom, you have been busy in my absence!

First, in an attempt to discredit me, is the best you can do really to quote me congratulating someone else for correctly pointing out that the OP who had been receiving significant support was, in fact, a SELF-CONFESSED thief? If someone admits to stealing then it is no insult to call them a thief, just a simple statement of fact.

Second, you attempt to provide the OP with an excuse under the Theft Act of 1968. Once again, you are guilty of reading the bits you like and ignoring the inconvenient rest. In the legal world relating to theft, the intention to permanently deprive is the ace of trumps. He admitted such an intent and so I'm afraid your attempted defence has been trumped by the person you were trying to defend.

Third, and much more interesting, is the debate that has started over the law in Spain. I know very little about Spanish law and I only make definitive statements when I am sure of my ground but I do have one or two observations that might be of interest in this debate. Reading through the translation provided by John Thompson, it seems to me that a number of key phrases stand out:

1. "The regime of stopping and parking will be regulated by municipal ordinance......including time limits for the duration of parking or stopping". This seems to me to be a clear statement that


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

Ah John.  You've got me.  Will you tell the Spanish OP his law is no good to him or shall I?   Thank God you're on my side. All us motor caravanners should be grateful to you.


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## David & Ann (Mar 15, 2011)

Canalsman said:


> It's here Porthtowan, Truro - Google Maps
> 
> If you zoom in you can read the sign clearly ...
> 
> Is overnight parking OK here?


 
The car park in the fore ground is the village hall car park. This is free but mostly used for folks to stop to go to the P.O, and the village store. There is a surfers shop also. The empty space at the back with 3 cars parked is the waste ground (as we in the village call it). Yes, there is a sign saying No Parking. No one knows who put it up. But every one parks there day or night. To this day there has been no problems. So I would say, Yes you can free park there, any time.
Street Parking to note: 1st Oct: to 1st May, parking is permitted on single single yellow line through out the village.
Toilets in the main car park. Water only available from tap. You can top up your tank if you have a watering can.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

John H said:


> . . .
> 
> 1. "The regime of stopping and parking will be regulated by municipal ordinance......including time limits for the duration of parking or stopping". This seems to me to be a clear statement that the central government is delegating such powers to local authorities.
> 
> ...




I agree but there is a proviso.   

My short interpretation is that no distinction can be made between a motor car and a motor caravan.   All shall be treated the same.   I do think distinction can be made on some grounds, I'm not going to look them up, but to do with vehicles maybe causing obstructions and some such.

From memory again, I think that the Spanish OP made pretty well the same claim.   Whether you agree or not, I think he was right and I think I am too.

It's interesting that you raise camping and overnight stays.  I haven't looked back at my posts but I distinctly remember saying originally that I had received definite impressions from some Spaniards that some, or maybe many, Spanish camping cars now display a notice saying something like, “I'm not camping, I'm parking.”   I was in Spain last Autumn and I don't remember seeing any but I wasn't looking.

In fact, now that I look back over your post, I don't really know what you're talking about.


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> Ah John.  You've got me.  Will you tell the Spanish OP his law is no good to him or shall I?   Thank God you're on my side. All us motor caravanners should be grateful to you.


 
Nothing changes, I see. Will you never read anything properly before responding? I made it perfectly clear that I was making a few observations, not definitive statements - because I don't know enough about Spanish law. You may be happy to go into battle without checking your gun and thinking you might have bullets in it because that nice man in the pub told you but I prefer to check that they are there - and that they are live. It may or may not be that the document quoted is of use; if it isn't then I'd look around to find one that is. What would you do - or do I already know the answer to that? One thing is for sure - the next time I plan any kind of campaign I wont be inviting you onto the team - I'd rather have some chance of success.

By the way, I assume that because you never responded to the other aspects of my earlier post that you don't disagree with them.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

Eh?


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## Canalsman (Mar 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> I checked this aftyernoon and the barrier was closed. Spoke to the attendant, who said during winter they shut it but will be opened again for Easter and stay open until September. He also mentioned if it is closed,(Summer time) blow horn and they will unlock it.


 
Thanks for the update - I've added notes to the database


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## Canalsman (Mar 15, 2011)

David & Ann said:


> The car park in the fore ground is the village hall car park. This is free but mostly used for folks to stop to go to the P.O, and the village store. There is a surfers shop also. The empty space at the back with 3 cars parked is the waste ground (as we in the village call it). Yes, there is a sign saying No Parking. No one knows who put it up. But every one parks there day or night. To this day there has been no problems. So I would say, Yes you can free park there, any time.
> Street Parking to note: 1st Oct: to 1st May, parking is permitted on single single yellow line through out the village.
> Toilets in the main car park. Water only available from tap. You can top up your tank if you have a watering can.


 
I've added this to the database too - many thanks 

Chris


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> Eh?


 
Sorry - next time I'll try to use words with no more than one syllable.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

My “Eh?” could be translated as;

“If there are aspects of your post to which I have not responded, will you please repeat them that I may do so”


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## bigpieeater (Mar 15, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> My “Eh?” could be translated as;
> 
> “If there are aspects of your post to which I have not responded, will you please repeat them that I may do so”


Don't worry maureenandtom I think JOHN H likes to have a go at anyone with an opinion, I tried to communicate with him but I can't seem to get any sense either...keep doing what you are doing, I love you even if he doesn't. xxx


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> I agree but there is a proviso.
> 
> My short interpretation is that no distinction can be made between a motor car and a motor caravan.   All shall be treated the same.   I do think distinction can be made on some grounds, I'm not going to look them up, but to do with vehicles maybe causing obstructions and some such.
> 
> ...


 
And the nonsense goes on! I made no comment at all on whether a motor car and a motorhome were or were not treated the same so what possible relevance does it have here? I have, however, seen many of the "parking, not camping" notices in Spanish motorhomes (and approve of them) and I passed no comment on that either, so what it has to do with my previous comments I cannot understand. I didn't "raise the question of the distinction between camping and overnight stays"; I simply pointed out that the Spanish document referred to quite definitely stated that the contents of that document did not address the question. So what on earth is your point?


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

John,

I warn you that I am very angry.

If I have answered all your points then we can finish as soon as you say so.  I advise you to do that.  If you still have points that you think I have avoided answering then tell me.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 15, 2011)

,


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

maureenandtom said:


> John,
> 
> I warn you that I am very angry.
> 
> If I have answered all your points then we can finish as soon as you say so.  I advise you to do that.  If you still have points that you think I have avoided answering then tell me.


 
The points I was referring to were points one and two in post 130 but I am not bothered whether you answer them or not. The reason I am keeping this going is because I made some considered and relevant points which you proceded to try to discredit simply because they didn't automatically praise someone for committing an illegal act. The irony of all this is that you and I are probably keen to achieve the same objectives but I think your way of achieving them will only set the cause back. We do not achieve anything if we put ourselves in the wrong, nor do we achieve anything if we try to use the wrong laws to advance our cause. All I ask is that you think more carefully before you launch into anything in the future.


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Don't worry maureenandtom I think JOHN H likes to have a go at anyone with an opinion, I tried to communicate with him but I can't seem to get any sense either...keep doing what you are doing, I love you even if he doesn't. xxx


 
No - just people who express opinions which in my view are likely to be counter-productive in pursuing aims that we all share in common - and I have to say that Maureen and Tom have repeatedly done that. Btw I can't recall the communication you refer to - if you would like to ask your question again I will attempt to answer it - and if I missed the post you refer to the first time I apologise for not replying.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 15, 2011)

John H said:


> No - just people who express opinions which in my view are likely to be counter-productive in pursuing aims that we all share in common - and I have to say that Maureen and Tom have repeatedly done that. Btw I can't recall the communication you refer to - if you would like to ask your question again I will attempt to answer it - and if I missed the post you refer to the first time I apologise for not replying.


No thanks John H, I cannot be arsed talking to ex teachers who have no idea of the real world. Teachers never leave school and therefore have no idea of what real life is all about.


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> No thanks John H, I cannot be arsed talking to ex teachers who have no idea of the real world. Teachers never leave school and therefore have no idea of what real life is all about.


 
Thank you for your considered reply. I can understand now why you claim not to have got any sense out of a conversation that we don't appear to have had. Btw, which "real world" are you on - I will try my best to avoid it.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 15, 2011)

John H said:


> Thank you for your considered reply. I can understand now why you claim not to have got any sense out of a conversation that we don't appear to have had. Btw, which "real world" are you on - I will try my best to avoid it.


 See what I mean...a complete nutter. Typical Teacher.


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## John H (Mar 15, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> See what I mean...a complete nutter. Typical Teacher.


 
An amusing interlude - it certainly made me smile - but these days you can get that chip from your childhood cured by a decent psychiatrist - unless you are happy being a pillock.


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## Tbear (Mar 15, 2011)

Hi Bigpieeater,

My I ask what you do for a living? What do you contribute to the real world

Richard


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

Tbear said:


> Hi Bigpieeater,
> 
> My I ask what you do for a living? What do you contribute to the real world
> 
> Richard


Yes you may ask. I run two companies, MD of both. Oh, and contribute more in one month than you did in one year!
Any more questions you would like to embarrass yourself with!


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

John H said:


> An amusing interlude - it certainly made me smile - but these days you can get that chip from your childhood cured by a decent psychiatrist - unless you are happy being a pillock.


Ha-Ha-Ha
You do make me laugh, you come over all clever on here, then write a statment like that to someone you do not know. Do you own a mirror?
Take a look at it, there you will find a real pillock. Lets hope we don't meet up old man, you would not like what you see.


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## John H (Mar 16, 2011)

Well, Richard, this guy is a genius - he knows without asking how much you have contributed to society! I wouldn't worry too much, though, as an earlier poster so concisely put it, insults only matter if they come from people whose views you respect. 

I'm off again for a few days, so that should give him time to think of a few more for me - and since he has given me so many reasons to respect him I am obviously very concerned about what he will say. I probably won't get any sleep till the weekend!


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## John H (Mar 16, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Lets hope we don't meet up old man, you would not like what you see.


 
At last - something we can both agree on!


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

John H said:


> Well, Richard, this guy is a genius - he knows without asking how much you have contributed to society! I wouldn't worry too much, though, as an earlier poster so concisely put it, insults only matter if they come from people whose views you respect.
> 
> I'm off again for a few days, so that should give him time to think of a few more for me - and since he has given me so many reasons to respect him I am obviously very concerned about what he will say. I probably won't get any sleep till the weekend!


In all honesty, I thought I was replying to you dear John, where on earth this Richard (can I call him DICK!) has come from, I don't know. Maybe I can aim the answer at the pair of you. 
Yes, a pair of dicks!


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## John H (Mar 16, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> In all honesty, I thought I was replying to you dear John, where on earth this Richard (can I call him DICK!) has come from, I don't know. Maybe I can aim the answer at the pair of you.
> Yes, a pair of dicks!


 
Got it! This is one of those wind-up things that will eventually end up as a reality tv programme - where have you hidden the cameras? Oh, and I am sure we would all love to know the names of the two companies you run - simply so that we don't inadvertently use them in the the future.

Unfortunately, I really do have to go now - but I can hardly wait until I'm online again and look up your next pearls of wisdom.


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

John H said:


> Got it! This is one of those wind-up things that will eventually end up as a reality tv programme - where have you hidden the cameras? Oh, and I am sure we would all love to know the names of the two companies you run - simply so that we don't inadvertently use them in the the future.
> 
> Unfortunately, I really do have to go now - but I can hardly wait until I'm online again and look up your next pearls of wisdom.


It would appear that you have used the word "we"
You and DICK perhaps?
You would be thrown out of the offices anyway, also, I doubt if you could afford us being an ex-teacher. We mainly supply footballers, you are many £££'s away from them, goodbye.
Drive SAFE!!


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> It would appear that you have used the word "we"
> You and DICK perhaps?
> You would be thrown out of the offices anyway, also, I doubt if you could afford us being an ex-teacher. We mainly supply footballers, you are many £££'s away from them, goodbye.
> Drive SAFE!!


Well everyoneone, now that Knob head has gone, can we get back to the original thread?


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## Deleted member 775 (Mar 16, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Well everyoneone, now that Knob head has gone, can we get back to the original thread?


 you seem to be saying you are an ex teacher .mabey now our children will start getting educated to a decent standard .


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## Admin (Mar 16, 2011)

Please calm this thread down or it will be locked.

The forum is not the place for personal arguments, please read the terms and conditions of this site to ensure you are not breaking them.

Phil


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## bigpieeater (Mar 16, 2011)

mandrake said:


> you seem to be saying you are an ex teacher .mabey now our children will start getting educated to a decent standard .


not sure what this means??? who is this aimed at?


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## Tbear (Mar 16, 2011)

Bigpieeater, 

As you don't name your company or even your trade I am going to presume all of what you say is abuse, rubbish and you are really a bit of a sad looser, all of which I have no interest in so out of respect (Look it up in the dictionary) for Phil I am leaving the thread.

Richard


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