# interesting new court ruling re gypsies and right to roam



## delicagirl (Jan 21, 2020)

COURT UPHOLDS “ENSHRINED FREEDOM” OF GYPSY AND TRAVELLER RIGHT TO ROAM
					

The Court of Appeal today ruled that an injunction to prevent camping on public land would breach the rights of the communities it targeted




					www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk


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## trevskoda (Jan 21, 2020)

Wondered where you had slipped of to in the last few weeks,reading as usual i see.


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## Asterix (Jan 21, 2020)

Seems to be no easy answers to this conundrum,if the Traveller community showed an ounce of respect for the land they (temporarily) occupy then I doubt most members of the public would have an issue with them. Obviously they don't and leave behind a mountain of rubbish and human waste for the local ratepayers to foot the bill for removal and cleansing. From what I've witnessed there is little or no enforcement of the laws relating to fly tipping,forced entry etc etc.


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## delicagirl (Jan 21, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Wondered where you had slipped of to in the last few weeks,reading as usual i see.


i have been very poorly with one thing and another  but now starting to get over the dreaded winter lurgy......    thanks xx


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## delicagirl (Jan 21, 2020)

i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities.   very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties...   but i could be wrong.   we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them  -    and lets not be hypocritical here  - we could be talking campervan owners here to.  It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration.   Other types of  part time travelling communities have different needs.


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## runnach (Jan 21, 2020)

I think it is fantastic news,the wildcamp community were worried about the proposed trespass laws. It is a victory for personal freedom the fact some travellers and wild campers are disrespectful to their environment is not sufficient reason to curb everyone’s liberty there is still mechanisms by which anti social behaviour is dealt with effectively more polic resources for a start.

The hypocrisy is if we tar all travelling groups the same then we must treat settled community wild campers the same can you imagine the uproar?

Travellers are a victim group, the terms some posters use here and their obvious dislike they wouldnt openly say about others eg blacks,and they wouldn’t remain published


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## jagmanx (Jan 21, 2020)

Glad the LURGI is going..You should not consort with The England Cricket Team
They have 2 Somerset Players !

I respect the right of travellers and their lifestyle but
1 Rubbish etc
2 Tax ..various
3 Insurance should they injure someone
Other will add I am sure

Then we have Showmen who seem to be better organised

Then we have "Dale Farm"


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## izwozral (Jan 21, 2020)

EDIT: See below.


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## GreggBear (Jan 21, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities.   very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties...   but i could be wrong.   we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them  -    and lets not be hypocritical here  - we could be talking campervan owners here to.  It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration.   Other types of  part time travelling communities have different needs.




Wouldn't be the first time a motorhomer had left a bag or 2 of rubbish behind that's true, but when did you last see a wildcamper leave a tipper load of tree clippings? Or half a dozen gas bottles?
When did you last read about " motorhomer looted local shop"?
You know as well as anyone else that these 2 groups of people are easily identifiable,  & easily told apart.
I know not all gypsies are bad, & neither are all campers good. Fact is when you see a school field or public carpal looking like a landfill you know instantly it was Irish gypsies. Not prejudice, just fact. If these people abided by the law & showed even a modicum of respect for the places they stay the conversation would probably be moot.
Any & all hard work & effort put in by you or I to enhance our cause or ease the public perception of wild camping is overturned at a stroke every time these hooligans pole up anywhere.
Time the law reflected this instead of just hitting us all with a blanket ban. Enforcement officers should be allowed to judge each case on the facts before them instead of being bound by a "one law for all" system....


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## izwozral (Jan 21, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities.   very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties...   but i could be wrong.   we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them  -    and lets not be hypocritical here  - we could be talking campervan owners here to.  It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration.   Other types of  part time travelling communities have different needs.



The problem is, in the main most MH owners act responsibly, they take their rubbish with them and deposit it in a waste container, bin, skip, tip, unfortunately most gypsy's don't want to know, they prefer to leave it where it is dropped for local residents to foot the bill in clearing it. Not what some people want to read but it is a fact the gypsy's are a law unto themselves and do not do themselves any favours at all. They will cry out that nothing is provided for them when they do not contribute towards the costs.
None romany/travelling communities have been around for thousands of years and deserve a little consideration too!


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## Nabsim (Jan 21, 2020)

If someone is doing something wrong then I think a law exists where action can be taken against them doesn’t it? Whether it be a gypsy, Romany, traveller or joe bloggs with his car full of kids/dogs/rubbish, anyone fly tipping should be prosecuted. I think fly tipping would be the law used.
We still need much better options for disposing of rubbish up and down the country and places to park up.
While I am most certainly anti fly tipping and anti social behaviour I judge that on what I see and not by labels or groups.


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## delicagirl (Jan 21, 2020)

Greggbear you say       -  ""  if we see a pile of rubbish.....    you know instantly who left it?""     perlease.....   that really is prejudice

you may want to read your contribution again....   ""Fact is when you see a school field or public carpal looking like a landfill you know instantly it was Irish gypsies. Not prejudice, just fact.  """       This is speculation which is nothing like fact.


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## jagmanx (Jan 21, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> If someone is doing something wrong then I think a law exists where action can be taken against them doesn’t it? Whether it be a gypsy, Romany, traveller or joe bloggs with his car full of kids/dogs/rubbish, anyone fly tipping should be prosecuted. I think fly tipping would be the law used.
> We still need much better options for disposing of rubbish up and down the country and places to park up.
> While I am most certainly anti fly tipping and anti social behaviour I judge that on what I see and not by labels or groups.


Yes
But as with campervan meets  and many other things
The problem is numbers and rubbish disposal and toilet to name the obvious
EG  St Andrews Meets no more !


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## GreggBear (Jan 21, 2020)

Yes laws exist to control fly tipping etc as well as laws against public nuisance & trespass. Problem is a system whereby in order to be able to address a group of Irish gypsies taking up residence ion your local school playground, the police also have the power to come down mob handed on 2 or 3 friends parking in a layby or on a piece of waste ground somewhere in order to have a night or 2 in each other's company. Obviously if those 2 or 3 people then leave rubbish etc behind they can & should be dealt with by the law the same as anyone else. If however a group of Irish gypsies pull onto a patch of waste ground etc & stay for 1 or 2 nights then move on, leaving the area tidy & rubbish free they surely should not be subject to any heavy handed laws.....


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## GreggBear (Jan 21, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> Greggbear you say       -  ""  if we see a pile of rubbish.....    you know instantly who left it?""     perlease.....   that really is prejudice
> 
> you may want to read your contribution again....   ""Fact is when you see a school field or public carpal looking like a landfill you know instantly it was Irish gypsies. Not prejudice, just fact.  """       This is speculation which is nothing like fact.


But we both know differently, don't we? ....


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## GreggBear (Jan 21, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Yes
> But as with campervan meets  and many other things
> The problem is numbers and rubbish disposal and toilet to name the obvious
> EG  St Andrews Meets no more !


The problem is people who have no respect for their surroundings. If I wildcamp, or attend a meet i leave no trace behind regardless of how many people are there. If anything I am more likely to clean more crap up at a big meet etc as I also clean up around where I park regardless of who dumped it. If no bins are provided, my rubbish comes away with me wherever I am....


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## Nabsim (Jan 21, 2020)

Everyone should be subjected to the same laws, no problem with that at all. I believe currently it’s 6 vehicles isn’t it with new proposed legislation aiming at two?

I remember when a copper would give you a good crack round the ear hole if you so much as looked at them wrong and you often ‘fell down the stairs’ on the way in or out the cells if you were caught up to no good.


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## jagmanx (Jan 21, 2020)

GreggBear said:


> The problem is people who have no respect for their surroundings. If I wildcamp, or attend a meet i leave no trace behind regardless of how many people are there. If anything I am more likely to clean more crap up at a big meet etc as I also clean up around where I park regardless of who dumped it. If no bins are provided, my rubbish comes away with me wherever I am....


Yes Yes Yes !
Even on aires / stellplatz


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## trevskoda (Jan 21, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> i have been very poorly with one thing and another  but now starting to get over the dreaded winter lurgy......    thanks xx


Hot whisky and sweat it out,look after your self.


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## SquirrellCook (Jan 21, 2020)

Gypsies and Tinkers. They are not the same. A real Gypsy lives by very strict rules.  Then we have motorhomer’s and life’s leftovers.

We do need more facilities. The road side bins we do have are seldom emptied.


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## GreggBear (Jan 21, 2020)

Agreed, but still think its down to respecting your surroundings. If I need to dump some rubbish & I find a full bin, I just keep looking till I find one that's empty. No way would I use a full bin/ no bin as an excuse to throw litter anywhere.


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## martinmartin (Jan 21, 2020)

I see the judgement hinged on the European convention of human rights. Echr may eventually be overturned once were out.


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## hextal (Jan 21, 2020)

channa said:


> I think it is fantastic news,the wildcamp community were worried about the proposed trespass laws. It is a victory for personal freedom the fact some travellers and wild campers are disrespectful to their environment is not sufficient reason to curb everyone’s liberty there is still mechanisms by which anti social behaviour is dealt with effectively more polic resources for a start.
> 
> The hypocrisy is if we tar all travelling groups the same then we must treat settled community wild campers the same can you imagine the uproar?
> 
> Travellers are a victim group, the terms some posters use here and their obvious dislike they wouldnt openly say about others eg blacks,and they wouldn’t remain published



As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?

I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.

That said, how often does a group (as representative of the wider group a they may or not be) have to act in a particular way before there is an acknowledged link?

Let's say that you are walking down the road and a teenager punches you. The next week a different teenager punches you, and so on.  Now, those teenagers clearly cannot be said to be representative of the norm. However, I also don't think anyone would be surprised if the person developed something of a mistrust of teenagers.

So the question I guess would be, does this mean that the person is a bigot, or is it a reasonable view to adopt based on personal experience?

You then get into the much murkier issue of real/direct experience as compared to whipped up feelings by telly, papers, interweb, etc.


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## runnach (Jan 21, 2020)

hextal said:


> As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?
> 
> I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.
> 
> ...


A valid question,often muted by the BAME community who proportionately are more likely to spend time in prison. Is it because they are all wrong uns or does society subconsciously discriminate? I guess you could offer convincing arguments on both sides.

This is were we need to be careful and considered, wildcamping to the larger population we are treated with suspicion by most authorities and I’m sure if the folk lurking in supermarkets emptying human waste concealed as an example were highlighted in the mainstream, there would be more resentment. Some may see borrowing water from churchyards distasteful we all have different moral compasses.

But if we were all banned from parking up somewhere these very pages start an outpoor of how unfair it is and probably is ..it follows that we shouldn’t be hypocritical and label other groups as definitive theives.or anti socials


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## R0B (Jan 21, 2020)

hextal said:


> As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?
> 
> I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.
> 
> ...



I suppose that’s part of the reason we need and have judges and courts. I see that Bromley attempted to get an injunction and was rejected by the High Court and now has failed in the Court of Appeal - I don’t now if they have sought leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. In any event, whatever Joe Bloggs and I think about it, higher authorities have spoken.


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## hextal (Jan 21, 2020)

channa said:


> A valid question,often muted by the BAME community who proportionately are more likely to spend time in prison. Is it because they are all wrong uns or does society subconsciously discriminate? I guess you could offer convincing arguments on both sides.
> 
> This is were we need to be careful and considered, wildcamping to the larger population we are treated with suspicion by most authorities and I’m sure if the folk lurking in supermarkets emptying human waste concealed as an example were highlighted in the mainstream, there would be more resentment. Some may see borrowing water from churchyards distasteful we all have different moral compasses.
> 
> But if we were all banned from parking up somewhere these very pages start an outpoor of how unfair it is and probably is ..it follows that we shouldn’t be hypocritical and label other groups as definitive theives.or anti socials



Funnily enough I nicked my example from the Reni Edo Lodge book about her experiences of stereotypes and unconscious (as well as blatant) racism as a black woman.  I just substituted 'white person' with 'teenager'.

Yup, as with pretty much most things unfortunately, there's always a balance point, and it almost always gets overshot with each swing from one side to the other (I think I'm mixing my metaphors here)


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## izwozral (Jan 21, 2020)

See what you have done Delish? You have turned this lot into fillysofikkalist, when all we wanted to do was bash the poor down trodden, misunderstood miscreants who will  sneer at our misguided liberal thinking.

We want to bash somebody not talk about why we want to bash somebody..


That's from the Jerry Springer Lodge book.

Tin hat firmly on.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 22, 2020)

Consideration needs to be earned, once they start showing us a little consideration then we might start showing them some.

At this moment in time they couldn`t give a fcuk about us as highlighted in some of the previous posts.


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## Nabsim (Jan 22, 2020)

hextal said:


> I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.
> _Quote shortened to this one paragraph _


For me this is one of the things wrong with the world today. We have to have a group or a label for everything.
There are bad buggers in life and it’s the bad bugger that should be dealt with not his family/mates/country.
Individuals should be held accountable. 
I have been wrongly judged fairly often by my appearance or by the groups I have been with but that’s others loss not mine. I try to treat everyone the same until I have a reason not to and fir me that’s how it should be.
Probably a throw back to my younger hippy days though lol


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## Debroos (Jan 22, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities.   very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties...   but i could be wrong.   we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them  -    and lets not be hypocritical here  - we could be talking campervan owners here to.  It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration.   Other types of  part time travelling communities have different needs.



I agree, apart from the rubbish. I know you can't take rubbish to a recycle place for free in a van but they do have enough cars to be able to bag it up and take it there as it is free then. And if it is work rubbish, then like everyone else, they should pay to dispose of it.
I haven't seen many sites after travellers have been there but the ones I have seen were all left immaculate. (Lucky I know!)

On the other hand if I, my family  and my ancestors had been ostracized and vilified for hundreds of years then I probably wouldn't give a stuff about being considerate to the society that had done that to me.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 22, 2020)

If you were to believe local authorities then we are no different to those Travellers who, some say, always leave rubbish behnd them.

When local authorities allege complaints from the public about motorhomers then we, unjustly, accept that councils are truthful.   No council claiming that we have caused complaints from the public has ever been able to produce the complaints they have said had been generated.  Never.  Dornoch Beach recently, for example.

There are different _classes_ of Traveller.  All deserve to be called _Traveller_ not _traveller.  _One of the accepted classes is _New Traveller_ and each of us can claim to self-identify as a New Traveller.  The protection of the law is available to us.

And, yes to those who say we need someone to speak for us.  We do.

I applaud this judgment.


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## Fisherman (Jan 22, 2020)

channa said:


> I think it is fantastic news,the wildcamp community were worried about the proposed trespass laws. It is a victory for personal freedom the fact some travellers and wild campers are disrespectful to their environment is not sufficient reason to curb everyone’s liberty there is still mechanisms by which anti social behaviour is dealt with effectively more polic resources for a start.
> 
> The hypocrisy is if we tar all travelling groups the same then we must treat settled community wild campers the same can you imagine the uproar?
> 
> Travellers are a victim group, the terms some posters use here and their obvious dislike they wouldnt openly say about others eg blacks,and they wouldn’t remain published



Spot on.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 22, 2020)

Interesting stuff.

Topics like this always gets me thinking. Here's a 2019 government report:-

Count of Traveller Caravans, July 2019 England

I know it probably doesn't cover the full total of Romany/Gypsy Travelllers moving about, or possibly even the numbers with camper vans (doesn't say if the report distinguishes between caravans and campers/mohos, or whether it counts both in) but it gives a pretty good clue on numbers.

At *23,125* that's a mere drop in the ocean when set against a total population in England of *66.87 million inhabitants*.
Maybe someone can work out the actually percentage? (I'm useless at maths, but I do know that's an insignificant number!).

Just sayin'


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Topics like this always gets me thinking. Here's a 2019 government report:-
> 
> ...




Not sure of your point Marie but percentage is about .03 of the population.


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## Debroos (Jan 22, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> If you were to believe local authorities then we are no different to those Travellers who, some say, always leave rubbish behnd them.
> 
> When local authorities allege complaints from the public about motorhomers then we, unjustly, accept that councils are truthful.   No council claiming that we have caused complaints from the public has ever been able to produce the complaints they have said had been generated.  Never.  Dornoch Beach recently, for example.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't you have to be fulltiming to be able to claim to be New Age Traveller?


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 22, 2020)

izwozral said:


> Not sure of your point Marie but percentage is about .03 of the population.



I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.

The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-

"In the UK, it is estimated that there are in current use: *555,000* touring caravans. *365,000* caravan holiday homes. *225,000* motorhomes".

So, to go back to my musings, if just over *23,000* caravans/mohos are reckoned to be in use by the Romany/Gypsy Travelling community, that again is only a small amount of the total out there on the road. We have lots of settled Roma living in County Durham, for example, and other than maybe going once a year to Appleby Fair they are working hard at making a living the rest of the time, just like everyone else.

Given that it is calculated that there are about 200,000 Roma settled in the UK out of a total UK population of 66.87 million I find it hard to believe that the Roma are responsible for the majority of the fly-tipping and rubbish dumping that goes on right across the country.

I guess one way to put all the speculation and stigma to bed would be for someone to undertake a proper study of where rubbish is being left/dumped across the board and who by?


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## martinmartin (Jan 22, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.
> 
> The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-
> 
> ...


Just like the majority of crimes are committed by the minority ,fly tipping and rubbish dumping falls into the same category.


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.
> 
> The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-
> 
> ...




I understand what you are saying, I suppose the gypsy's are more visible inasmuch they park up and leave their rubbish behind and the public see the aftermath, whereas the fly tippers, the morons who throw rubbish out of car windows and those that drop litter are seen in isolation. If you see what I mean?

I am sure most people can cite incidences where they have seen unofficial gypsy camps and the mess they leave, I certainly can, it is a bi-annual event in the centre of Nantwich.

The worse Iz and I observed and were affected by was at a wilding spot in Yorkshire on some common land, we were there along with about another half dozen MH's. Glorious sunny day, kids playing in the river, MH'ers chatting with each other and generally having a good time. Then came a dozen or so vehicles of various types, dirt bikes off loaded and soon tearing around the common land spooking the sheep who were in lamb, teens throwing rocks and bottles in the river, adults not saying a blind thing about their kids behaviour.
We and the other MH'ers upped and left apart from one. a few hours later Iz and I returned, the gypsy's had gone but left a right old mess. We and the couple who had stayed collected a dozen bin bags full of rubbish, there was none before the gypsy's arrived. We took the rubbish to a wheeled skip which is left next to cattle grid just a couple of hundred yards away. There was nothing we could do about the broken glass in the river apart from pick up the larger pieces and we called at a local farm house to report a sheep that had got caught in the barb wire fencing fleeing from the dirt bikes. The fencing needed cutting because the sheep was completely entangled and we had no cutters. Unfortunately, the farm we called at were not the owners of the sheep and there was just a young girl at home who said she would ring around, that poor sheep was tangled up for hours before it was freed. It had likely lost it's lamb along with some of the others.

I don't have much admiration or time for the gypsy's.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 22, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Wouldn't you have to be fulltiming to be able to claim to be New Age Traveller?



Good point.   I know that some Travellers also lead a settled existence and still believe themselves Travellers.   So I looked up where I thought I'd seen this as being accepted.   I couldn't find it but I do believe it is there somewhere.   So, certainly full-timers and, I believe, any of us who choose the self-identify as New Travellers.

The easiest readily-available document is that issued by Cumbria Police (because of the Appleby business) but I think several other authorities have similar doucments.   Coogle "_Gypsy and Traveller Policy - Cumbria Police_" for a word document.

Here's a couple of extracts.


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## 1 Cup (Jan 22, 2020)

Was this subject the foundation of the troll system now in place. 
NIMBY..


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## n brown (Jan 22, 2020)

being a traveller is similar to being black or moslem , it's not affected by whether you're living in a van or a house. you just are


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## iampatman (Jan 22, 2020)

Gypsies and Tinkers. They are not the same. A real Gypsy lives by very strict rules. Then we have motorhomer’s and life’s leftovers.

We do need more facilities. The road side bins we do have are seldom emptied.

Tinkers? I thought the Industrial Revolution saw them off.

What’s a life leftover?

As for this “bin” thing - it’s not really a problem is it?


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## runnach (Jan 22, 2020)

Prior to the race act 2010,  New Age travellers were not recognised ,what brought about recognition is they had a raft of children who only knew their semi nomadic lifestyle, and it was the children that brought about a recognised ethnicity.irish Scots angd English travellers enjoy separate recognition as do the show people.

Some of you may remember I worked for a few months with the travelling fairs living full time in my Moho. Upon my return to the uk officially i was classed as a traveller but the pigeon hole I fitted into was never really discussed

As far as the show people were concerned I was a traveller but not one of them an it was explained to me you had to be born into fairground life ,my daughter if I had continued working there would have been classed as showman you don’t need be born in a trailer.

The discrimination between travellers can be fierce, which surprises a lot of people.

Just to clear up a couple of myths re show people at least every fair we pay rent to the council or landowner, ands lot of it we also had to make provisions for toilets and waste disposal for the fairground goers.

The showman’s guild are particularly good at lobbying particularly transport matters licensing mot on the tractor units ,they also resolve disputes between families which is why it is rare to see any publicity

Schooling of children is parenting and a combination of educational outreach workers


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## n brown (Jan 22, 2020)

.


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## iampatman (Jan 22, 2020)

Authorities don’t like folk who can’t be monetised. Live in bricks and mortar and they’re laughing. Mortgage repayments/rent/poll tax/gas bills/electric bills/broadband/TV License etc..etc..
Some people/communities might prefer a different lifestyle and it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man/woman in 2020 to accommodate them but -  it’s easier, and cheaper, to vilify them and encourage discrimination against them. Yes, it’s awful when your local area is left messed up by travelling folk but it would be cheaper and more sensible if there were some facilities offered to travellers. Mind, if we didn’t have Gypsies and travellers we’d have to find another group to discriminate against wouldn’t we? Women won’t stand for It anymore, neither will black folk or any ethinic minority - the games up there. There’s only Gypsies and travellers left. God knows who we’ll vent our prejudices on when they’re gone eh?

Pat


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2020)

Perhaps we should provide them with bins then they wont dump their rubbish at police stations!


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## maureenandtom (Jan 22, 2020)

izwozral said:


> Perhaps we should provide them with bins then they wont dump their rubbish at police stations!



... or anywhere else.   If they are provided with bins.  So why don't councils do this?   Find there is an encampment and provide bins?    There will then be no cleanup bill other than emptying the bins.  No mess, no complaints, little cost.


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## bobj808 (Jan 23, 2020)

Why don't they do what the majority of us do and take their crap to their nearest disposal centre. Why should any council funded by taxpayers (remember Travellers don't pay any tax whatsoever ) have to foot the bill to take away their rubbish. I'm not sure why people on here can defend the indefensible. Wherever they stop they leave the place like a dump, no exception.


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## GreggBear (Jan 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> ... or anywhere else.   If they are provided with bins.  So why don't councils do this?   Find there is an encampment and provide bins?    There will then be no cleanup bill other than emptying the bins.  No mess, no complaints, little cost.





Don't be naive. If they were provided with bins they would only weigh them in! They have plenty opportunity to use bins etc just the same as you & I do. I have seen council provide skips for these people, who left them empty & threw carp on the floor next to the skips!
You can't help people who don't want to be helped....


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## peter palance (Jan 23, 2020)

delicagirl said:


> i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities.   very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties...   but i could be wrong.   we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them  -    and lets not be hypocritical here  - we could be talking campervan owners here to.  It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration.   Other types of  part time travelling communities have different needs.


oh no they dont,some were to put the dung,and water. we pay they should pay, if you dont be have, they could take your van,it takes all types. a clean path is what we need, p.s. happy camping,ok pj.


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## jacquigem (Jan 23, 2020)

iampatman said:


> Authorities don’t like folk who can’t be monetised. Live in bricks and mortar and they’re laughing. Mortgage repayments/rent/poll tax/gas bills/electric bills/broadband/TV License etc..etc..
> Some people/communities might prefer a different lifestyle and it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man/woman in 2020 to accommodate them but -  it’s easier, and cheaper, to vilify them and encourage discrimination against them. Yes, it’s awful when your local area is left messed up by travelling folk but it would be cheaper and more sensible if there were some facilities offered to travellers. Mind, if we didn’t have Gypsies and travellers we’d have to find another group to discriminate against wouldn’t we? Women won’t stand for It anymore, neither will black folk or any ethinic minority - the games up there. There’s only Gypsies and travellers left. God knows who we’ll vent our prejudices on when they’re gone eh?
> 
> Pat


How about Europeans ? (tounge in cheek ,Ha Ha )


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## trevskoda (Jan 23, 2020)

I have 4/5 living close to me,there yard is clean and tidy,there trucks in A1 condition,some i know by name and talk to me,other ones from down south wreck all around them and leave the place like a scrap yard.


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## izwozral (Jan 23, 2020)

iampatman said:


> Authorities don’t like folk who can’t be monetised. Live in bricks and mortar and they’re laughing. Mortgage repayments/rent/poll tax/gas bills/electric bills/broadband/TV License etc..etc..
> Some people/communities might prefer a different lifestyle and it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man/woman in 2020 to accommodate them but -  it’s easier, and cheaper, to vilify them and encourage discrimination against them. Yes, it’s awful when your local area is left messed up by travelling folk but it would be cheaper and more sensible if there were some facilities offered to travellers. Mind, if we didn’t have Gypsies and travellers we’d have to find another group to discriminate against wouldn’t we? Women won’t stand for It anymore, neither will black folk or any ethinic minority - the games up there. There’s only Gypsies and travellers left. God knows who we’ll vent our prejudices on when they’re gone eh?
> 
> Pat



No problem providing facilities if they contribute towards it, why should everyone else have to pay for it? There are plenty of working poor who pay their rates and go without decent food and heating. 
Just a few days ago there was a thread about littering and the litterers were vilified by those who posted, why are the gypsies seen as any different?

There is plenty of more ammo if the gypsies suddenly become responsible citizens.

Politicians.
Religious fundamentalist.
Claims Lawyers
Parking companies

And probably a lot more besides.

Anyway, this is my last post on this thread as I suspect this thread will be closed shortly and I feel there isn't much more can be said on the subject.

Best wishes to one and all.


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## GreggBear (Jan 23, 2020)

Gotta say, I'm getting a bit confused now. On the one hand it is suggested that we are wrong to expect to park anywhere for free & should be happy to pay charges to park in public places with no facilities. Then it is pointed out that we as taxpayers should be expected to provide the Irish gypsies with facilities at our expense. Then, as if I am not confused enough by this point it is then suggested that these gypsies are in fact misunderstood & I am maybe wrong to have a negative view of them.....
Sometimes feels like we are our own worst enemy & seem unable to stand up for what we believe in, but instead feel duty bound to put ourselves down.


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## Fisherman (Jan 23, 2020)

I always try to understand that as humans we all think differently, and have differing outlooks on life. But what must bind us all together is the law, because without the law all we have is anarchy. But within the law there must be some latitude. Take the situation were Sikhs don’t have to wear helmets when riding on motorbikes for example. I feel that the travelling community need such latitude, but not to the extent that they can behave irresponsibly at great cost to local residents and council tax payers.
Yes I have witnessed travellers behaving badly when offered sites set up by local councils. Not more than a mile away from were I live there was such a site, but after several abuses the council blocked it off years ago. But do we say that all travellers are the same, should we ban all travellers from sites, I don’t think so. What we have to do is apply the law, plain and simple. Fines should be issued, and if not paid then custodial sentences should be handed out. We have to stop being afraid of tackling these problems because of fears of bias against travellers. If they break the law, the law must be applied.
Next we come to taxes, and costs incurred by us maintaining waste disposal and other costs such as education for children, medical aid, policing, fire, etc.
If travellers are due to pay income tax I see no reason why they should be treated any differently. Local council tax poses more of a problem. The current council tax is based on the value of your property, and many non travellers amongst us pay no council tax. It could be that attempting to calculate council tax and collect it may prove more expensive than what little we would collect. Also what value do we put on a caravan moving from area to area. Remember that two identical homes can be on different council tax bands due to location.
To sum up, there is clearly a disconnect between us and travellers, a level of suspicion and mistrust that will prove difficult to overcome. But we must resist bias and we must also be prepared to hold selfish inconsiderate behaviour to account no matter who is responsible.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

Ignorance and cultural differences on both sides of the fence?

Personally I detest anyone who dumps their rubbish and leaves crap behind wherever they go, and I don't care what "ethnicity" you claim to be. Police were hesitant to prosecute offenders in the Asian communities who were grooming and sex trafficking young lasses in case they were accused of racism and look where that got them. I think you need to nail your colours to the mast and cut through all this 'smokescreen and mirror' PC cr*p that is thrown up in defence of the defenceless.

If you're a criminal breaking the law then you're a criminal, full stop. Couldn't care less if you're martian with purple dots, matey.

Back on topic: rubbish and litter is a 'cultural' thing with me. My parents considered throwing rubbish away or littering the countryside to be almost as heinous a crime as murder! And so it's a value that sticks with me for the rest of my life, and a bloody good one imho.

So OK, I was brought up to respect the environment, but many (most?) Roma/gypsies/travellers aren't. Maybe that's a sweeping statement, but I can only go on what I have personally witnessed. Even settled Roma around here will use their own private land as a dumping ground for the rubbish they personally generate, or bring home from building and other jobs they are working on. It's obviously too much trouble to apply for the (free) licences needed to take your rubbish to the local tip in a van - and it *IS* too much trouble! Local councils & government need to come up with much better solutions for disposing of our rubbish, solutions that make it easier for people to dispose of rubbish responsibly, not more difficult !!!

My experience during the last 18 years living where we do has shown me that consideration for the natural environment amounts to zero for a lot of settled Roma living near me. They think nothing of chopping down valuable ancient woodland, dumping hazardous/polluting waste or filling in/blocking natural waterways on their own land to suit their own purposes.

But consideration for the environment is lacking right across the board. I see motorway verges and central reservations littered with all manner of detritus thrown from vehicle windows or left behind on lay-bys. Discarded plastic bottles full of p**s, takeaway food rubbish - you name it, it will be thrown away somewhere without regard to the consequences.

So who is really to blame for the environmental mess? Answers on a postcard please


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

I've always though we should do much more with on-the-spot fines. Seem to remember a few countries in Europe practice this for parking offences, although I haven't been abroad for a good few years now (Greece springs to mind?). Don't see why similar instant fines shouldn't be applied to littering. Its always been an offence, but I've never, ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.

I think there have been a few recent experiments in a limited number of city/town centres to deter littering?
But this is not a mainstream policy and most councils don't employ anyone to enforce controls properly and effectively.

But with environmental awareness becoming much more mainstream now, the best we can hope for is that tougher laws will be introduced to deal with rubbish and its disposal.

Wouldn't hold your breath, though!


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## Fisherman (Jan 23, 2020)

It always seems to me that there is a glaring contradiction with travellers.
They complain that there is nowhere for them to go, and yet when spaces are provided they ruin them. This creates division between us and them, (and there is an us and them), and furthermore limits the very thing thing that they crave, somewhere to stop.

Also this is vital for us as Motorhomers.
We must create a divide between us and them, we are not them, and they quite clearly are not us. To me this lack of division has created many problems for us. There is a misguided attitude amongst the general populous out there, that there is no difference, there is no division. This must change. In the continent and worldwide travellers and Motorhomers are not regarded as the same there is a division of attitude between us and them within the population. Until this message is understood by the general population, we will continue to be treated poorly.


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## runnach (Jan 23, 2020)

Marie if Kirklees is a typical barometer, the council spent  £110.000 a couple of years ago clearing fly tipping sites, if those responsible were 100% travellers the cost is far less than providing proper provision a real lesser of two evils 

As Collette mentioned councils were legally obliged to provide space that trailers could be placed. Albeit normally with limited planning permission,however the councils didn’t and we have what we have. The cost and assumption the facilities are provided free is pure nonsense ...those on the sites are liable for council tax 

In Doncaster at the moment there are 92 travelling families mainly showmen who have no access to winter quarters , there displacement angers the settled community yet if dmbc did invest there would be a financial return in council tax collected. To compound the situation land owners acting off their own backs are refused permission that has happened in two locations I know of.

Of course I even if there were provision not every family would use it...but is that any different to members of our group who don’t want to or won’t use a campsite ?

Finally there seems resentment we are paying for special educational arrangements for traveller children ,,,that’s bollocks too mainstream schools are full of special educational need teachers or assistants ...should we mean test the parents ? 

Some travellers are a bloody nuisance, some are very ethical in their ways just like the settled lot. I have no time for the anti social brigade who ever they are. But with constant de regulation a shrinking police force the law can’t be brought to bare it has had its teeth removed. The miscreant no that too which doesn’t help


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

Channa, my understanding is that showman are in a class of their own and quite different to the settled Roma who live near me.

Regardless, we should be providing more/better sites for all Travellers/Roma.

There is and always will be prejudice towards Roma, as there will always be ignorant prejudice towards anyone who is perceived to be 'different' to the local parochial population.

The bottom line for me is that most of our environmental (and many other) problems is because there are way too many of us Yuman's! 

Look at any group of animals where the population grows crowded and you will experience tension, rivalries and spats.

What is needed - and this is very much my own personal opinion - is a good dose of Yuman myxomatosis!
Maybe something like this recent Chinese coronavirus?

Sounds like if it hits here it could wipe out at least half the UK population of moho owners, possibly even me! rofpml
Hope it waits until I've at least had chance to have a few trips out in new camper first... !  


myxomatosis


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## Asterix (Jan 23, 2020)

When I first moved to Poole there was a dedicated Traveller stop with a toilet/shower block and bins provided,I went in there weekly to empty the bins. Not long after it was closed down because all the facilities had been completely trashed,now it is a permanent Traveller site with about 10 static caravans,supplied with power,water and normal bin collections. To me the residents can no longer be classed as travellers as they reside permanently in one place,but now there is nowhere for travellers to pitch up except public parks,carparks etc
It seems like a lose lose situation for local ratepayers,and when the travellers themselves don't seem to know what they want,what hope have council's got to deal with them?


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

Hmm.

You're in an area of the country pretty well provisioned for Travellers. 

Devon and Cornwall has one of the largest numbers of settled travellers in the UK.


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## Asterix (Jan 23, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Hmm.
> 
> You're in an area of the country pretty well provisioned for Travellers.
> 
> Devon and Cornwall has one of the largest numbers of settled travellers in the UK.



No provisions at all across the entire conurbation,Pool, Bournemouth and Christchurch,every summer is a constant battle between the council and travellers. One of the jobs I was doing was to deliver skips full of concrete to gateways around the borough to stop incursions onto public land,they are still doing it now but they can't block everything. There have been attempts to designate sites in the area but the nimbys (quite understandably) protest about it and plans are shelved for another year.


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## martinmartin (Jan 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Good point.   I know that some Travellers also lead a settled existence and still believe themselves Travellers.   So I looked up where I thought I'd seen this as being accepted.   I couldn't find it but I do believe it is there somewhere.   So, certainly full-timers and, I believe, any of us who choose the self-identify as New Travellers.
> 
> The easiest readily-available document is that issued by Cumbria Police (because of the Appleby business) but I think several other authorities have similar doucments.   Coogle "_Gypsy and Traveller Policy - Cumbria Police_" for a word document.
> 
> ...


Out of that list its the Irish travellers who are causing the vast majority of problems for the rest of the list .They are abusing the ECHR ruling and fogging the whole traveller issue and every man and his dog knows it.


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## maingate (Jan 23, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I've always though we should do much more with on-the-spot fines. Seem to remember a few countries in Europe practice this for parking offences, although I haven't been abroad for a good few years now (Greece springs to mind?). Don't see why similar instant fines shouldn't be applied to littering. Its always been an offence, but I've never, ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.
> 
> Wouldn't hold your breath, though!



Remember when Toy Blair advocated on the spot fines for littering etc.? He was laughed at.  

Personally, I thought there was some merit in it.


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## Fisherman (Jan 23, 2020)

On the spot fines for littering have always been available, but the police simply don't often enforce it.

In the *United Kingdom* there is a maximum *fine* of £2,500 for persistent *littering*. Different local authorities also have the powers to impose on-the-spot *fines* to those caught *littering*. These are generally under £100.


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## harrow (Jan 23, 2020)

Private land as opposed to public land means the land owner has to pay to clear up the mess, even dead wild animals.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

maingate said:


> Remember when Toy Blair advocated on the spot fines for littering etc.? He was laughed at.
> 
> Personally, I thought there was some merit in it.



Like I said, they did on-the-spot fines in Greece for parking offences so no reason to laugh for doing the same for littering/dumping rubbish.

But then people laugh at the idea of aires in the UK, so no surprises that good ideas get knocked back by narrowminded naysayers


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## SquirrellCook (Jan 23, 2020)

maingate said:


> Remember when Toy Blair advocated on the spot fines for littering etc.? He was laughed at.


But it was too be paid into his personal bank account!


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

harrow said:


> Private land as opposed to public land means the land owner has to pay to clear up the mess, even dead wild animals.



Yes, that's a problem. If fly tippers arrive and dump their rubbish on private land, the responsibility for its subsequent removal is down to the land owner.

By the same token, it's interesting that local Roma also dump rubbish on their own land and make a proper eyesore of it and don't seem to be required to clear up any mess they make.

There doesn't appear to be any laws requiring any land owners, Roma or not, to keep their land clear of rubbish (I might be wrong on this?). Unless it's in a National Park perhaps, or they're found dumping hazardous waste when they shouldn't be? (but then who would know about the latter, especially if it's somewhere remote or hidden?!)


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## Nabsim (Jan 23, 2020)

Why are we still saying it’s this group or that group? Just needs coppers to carry out the powers they have on ANYONE flytipping or whatever laws being broken.


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## runnach (Jan 23, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Channa, my understanding is that showman are in a class of their own and quite different to the settled Roma who live near me.
> 
> Regardless, we should be providing more/better sites for all Travellers/Roma.
> 
> ...


Lol Marie the showmen do consider themselves a different breed, yet a lot of the culture is in common with traditional Romany beliefs and they are lumped in with the rest of the travelling community as regards the law is concerned. In my opinion it is the New Age travellers that don’t fit traditionally, simply a more recent addition to a label.

History and tradition are entrenched in travelling culture, the travelling lifestyle whether some like it or not is very much part of British culture. From some of the language we use and that has evolved to part and parcel of how our economy has developed in history.over the years,

Traditionally travellers were in the main a seasonal workforce that followed seasonal agriculture about at harvest and sewing times assisted in trading markets , an off shoot was entertainment and that is how the fairs came about some of the original travellers simply diversified.

What a lot of folk don’t realise is the travelling fairs go back to royal charter. That charter over rides today’s local authorities and is the reason why despite protests from some the hopping ,goose fair amongst others are highly unlikely to be revoked.

Goose fair in Nottingham is a great example whilst a funfair today loathed and adored by many it was traditionally a market were poultry was traded before Christmas geese traded to fatten for the table. Traditionally a flock of geese driven through the fair to open it.,! Ain’t hat part of our culture?

The showmen have the guild, who remedies problems amongst the showmen and lease effectively with authority and have brokered countless arrangements in favour of their members exemptions in size of living trailers being one.

It is incredibly difficult to trade as a showman , due to a closed shop arrangement I can’t do it and I know a lot of influential showman on first name terms

The showmen still operate an arranged marriage situation it seems to work but dowry’s c ommercial favour is very much alive and kicking.

Do they contribute towards the settled economy ? Yes the simple answer , they pay rent,taxes for water just like everyone else.

Have they contributed in other ways .. ? Gypsy John Cunningham was awarded the Victoria cross , no mean feat fighting for our country at a time of potential oppression , there are others too, the showman’s guild in war 2 raised money for aircraft. All acts to the common good yet we never here about it ? 

Just perhaps I may have opened a few eyes , and folk may realise their prejudices are a little unfounded. The showmen at least are very much part of our history and culture, they also have their own , we don’t need to understand it but it would be a far better world if we took time to understand our differences and what unites us in common.

As for me , I visited a different world , initially treated with suspicion but caught a glimpse of a different culture and lifestyle, saw from others perspective.. I consider it a chapter in my own life if nothing else personally enriching and I never left our shores.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 23, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> ...
> 
> I think there have been a few recent experiments in a limited number of city/town centres to deter littering?
> But this is not a mainstream policy and most councils don't employ anyone to enforce controls properly and effectively.
> ...



Yes.  There have been.  Public Spaces Protection Orders.  And there have been plenty of on the spot fines handed out too;   they're called Fixed Penalty Notices and very often a private company is employed to enforce the PSPOs.    This has led to many complaints.  Fines have been imposed for offences ranging from dropping cigarette ends to feeding ducks..   But none, so far as I know, for Travellers leavng rubbish behind.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...554552/Woman-fined-for-feeding-the-ducks.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-furious-after-being-fined-11546181

The PSPOs are pretty mainstream and are being introduced all over the place.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jan 23, 2020)

Hi Tom Yes it’s easy to get a fine for an Apple core we are easy targets.........the lorry loads of rubbish for want of a better word after the travellers leave ends up with the local rate payers yet again       Justice indeed.

Alf



maureenandtom said:


> Yes.  There have been.  Public Spaces Protection Orders.  And there have been plenty of on the spot fines handed out too;   they're called Fixed Penalty Notices and very often a private company is employed to enforce the PSPOs.    This has led to many complaints.  Fines have been imposed for offences ranging from dropping cigarette ends to feeding ducks..   But none, so far as I know, for Travellers leavng rubbish behind.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...554552/Woman-fined-for-feeding-the-ducks.html
> 
> ...


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## Debroos (Jan 23, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Yes, that's a problem. If fly tippers arrive and dump their rubbish on private land, the responsibility for its subsequent removal is down to the land owner.
> 
> By the same token, it's interesting that local Roma also dump rubbish on their own land and make a proper eyesore of it and don't seem to be required to clear up any mess they make.
> 
> There doesn't appear to be any laws requiring any land owners, Roma or not, to keep their land clear of rubbish (I might be wrong on this?). Unless it's in a National Park perhaps, or they're found dumping hazardous waste when they shouldn't be? (but then who would know about the latter, especially if it's somewhere remote or hidden?!)



When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...


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## trevskoda (Jan 23, 2020)

Debroos said:


> When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...


Sounds like my garage.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Jan 23, 2020)

Yes but that was not the school playing field or a public park.

Alf



Debroos said:


> When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...


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## Debroos (Jan 23, 2020)

channa said:


> Lol Marie the showmen do consider themselves a different breed, yet a lot of the culture is in common with traditional Romany beliefs and they are lumped in with the rest of the travelling community as regards the law is concerned. In my opinion it is the New Age travellers that don’t fit traditionally, simply a more recent addition to a label.
> 
> History and tradition are entrenched in travelling culture, the travelling lifestyle whether some like it or not is very much part of British culture. From some of the language we use and that has evolved to part and parcel of how our economy has developed in history.over the years,
> 
> ...



The stuff you learn on this site!
That was really interesting, thanks.
Re gypsy/traveller contributions to society...some of the best Irish Traditional musicians were travellers, exceptionally talented and skilled (with not a huge wedding dress in sight! )


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Sounds like my garage.



...and my garage! ... and the house...!! and the loft... !!!


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## Debroos (Jan 23, 2020)

Alf said:


> Yes but that was not the school playing field or a public park.
> 
> Alf


Very true but it was in reply to the post about Roma leaving rubbish on their own land...maybe they have the same thinking.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 23, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Very true but it was in reply to the post about Roma leaving rubbish on their own land...maybe they have the same thinking.



True. Some farmers can be just as bad when it comes to dumping stuff and leaving it lying around on their land, but it is normally connected to their job - agriculture - and more often than not has a function, or could have a function that will help the farmer.

The rubbish that gets dumped on private land around here is often in full view from main roads and usually has absolutely nothing to do with agriculture or maintaining the land.


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## maureenandtom (Jan 23, 2020)

_The Court of Appeal today ruled that Gypsies and Travellers have an “enshrined freedom” to move from one place to another, and that an injunction to prevent camping on *public land* would breach the rights of the communities it targeted._

An interesting discussion but there's something important that we've skated over.   This ruling might well mean that all “no overnghting” signs on public car parks *(public land)* no longer have validity.  We can all claim to be New Travellers but the notices themselves might now be unlawful.  The ruling is against “injunctions” but I can't see that “no overnighting” notices are any different. 

Useful for the next member to get a PCN for the appeal.


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## Debroos (Jan 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> _The Court of Appeal today ruled that Gypsies and Travellers have an “enshrined freedom” to move from one place to another, and that an injunction to prevent camping on *public land* would breach the rights of the communities it targeted._
> 
> An interesting discussion but there's something important that we've skated over.   This ruling might well mean that all “no overnghting” signs on public car parks *(public land)* no longer have validity.  We can all claim to be New Travellers but the notices themselves might now be unlawful.  The ruling is against “injunctions” but I can't see that “no overnighting” notices are any different.
> 
> Useful for the next member to get a PCN for the appeal.


How fascinating. I do so hope you are right!


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## GreggBear (Jan 23, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> _The Court of Appeal today ruled that Gypsies and Travellers have an “enshrined freedom” to move from one place to another, and that an injunction to prevent camping on *public land* would breach the rights of the communities it targeted._
> 
> An interesting discussion but there's something important that we've skated over.   This ruling might well mean that all “no overnghting” signs on public car parks *(public land)* no longer have validity.  We can all claim to be New Travellers but the notices themselves might now be unlawful.  The ruling is against “injunctions” but I can't see that “no overnighting” notices are any different.
> 
> Useful for the next member to get a PCN for the appeal.





Point is the gypsy council faught for that result for the gypsies only. Every bit of that legislation relates only to gypsies. The gypsy council actually sought to exclude "new travellers" from any laws they got overturned etc. They actively distance themselves from us when it comes to fighting for "justice".....


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## maureenandtom (Jan 23, 2020)

An unintended consequence then.   How am I to know that the no overnighting signs are discriminatory in that there are portions of the populace they don't apply to?    I guess the councils would have to amend the notices to say “no overnghting unless you can convince me you are a Traveller and New Travellers need not apply”.

_"An injunction which prevents them from stopping at all in a defined part of the UK comprises a potential breach of both the ECHR and the Equality Act_

But I see nothing in the report to say that New Travellers are excluded not did I see any distancing of themselves.  Where did you get that from?  I'm interested.

I think an appeal against a PCN may well succeed.


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## GreggBear (Jan 23, 2020)

Think you could well be right, I'd appeal too . Thought it was common knowledge the gypsies don't identify with us, in law or otherwise....


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