# Petition Against NC 500 Campers



## 2cv (Jul 29, 2020)

The local Lib Dem MP does not appear to like us. Link


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 29, 2020)

2cv said:


> The local Lib Dem MP does not appear to like us. Link



What a completely blinkered kn*b! 

I would like to see the evidence of motorhomes being responsible for ruining Highland roads.
Seems extremely unscientific. Highly emotive and irrational, imho.

How to make friends and influence people - not!

A sad person indeed. Reflecting the views of the constituents he represents?

I suppose he, and they, would be a lot happier if we rebuilt Hadrian's Wall and prevented anyone in a motorised vehicle from crossing the border into Scotland at all.


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## colinm (Jul 29, 2020)

He gets my vote as tw@ of the year, as per another thread we don't carry disposable barbeques, nor do we crap on the side of the road, we have cooking facilities onboard, and also a toilet, two things which car drivers don't.


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## antiquesam (Jul 29, 2020)

Extremely heavy campervan damaging the roads. So we are accused of sh*tting on the beaches, emptying our toilets on the roadside, leave rubbish all over the countryside, but this fellow has decided our 3.5 tonne vehicles are the cause of all the damage to their, not very well maintained roads. 
I can't see Ms Sturgeon will pay much heed to a LibDem Westminster MP somehow with a few signatures on a petition.


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## antiquesam (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> What a completely blinkered kn*b!
> 
> I would like to see the evidence of motorhomes being responsible for ruining Highland roads.
> Seems extremely unscientific. Highly emotive and irrational, imho.
> ...


I quite like the idea of the wall being rebuilt, with motorhome overnight parking at all the forts. 
If Nicola gets her way it'll be needed I suppose.


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## witzend (Jul 29, 2020)

Don,t forget that only a small minority of people see any benefit from tourists to the majority they are just a hinderance to their normal life. Here in Cornwall most people would be glad if we never saw any even the English who have second homes here have a dislike of visitors pubs an restraunts busy with them making it hard to find a seat Many places we now have to pay to visit that once was free Lands End to name one


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## colinm (Jul 29, 2020)

Well I've fired off a polite email to him pointing out a few facts and not hearsay derived from unverified photo's


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## Tookey (Jul 29, 2020)

Polite email just sent to Jamie


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## Toffeecat (Jul 29, 2020)

I used to be a lib dem parish Councillor many years back and left after they got into bed with Cameron. Where is the evidence where is the justice  where is the party who believes in equality  arnt they doing what they campaign against  stigma, labelling etc etc. E mail getting sent.


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## SquirrellCook (Jul 29, 2020)

Don't confuse the gross weight of a vehicle with the pressure that is applied to the ground by the tyres. I'm often told I'm too fat for the ground conditions by those that don't understand.


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## antiquesam (Jul 29, 2020)

Email sent. No swear words.


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## Val54 (Jul 29, 2020)

And they wonder why the LibDems get ignored jumping on another yet another local "populist" bandwagon opportunity, shame he didn't suggest the investment in facilities first followed by a sensible user fee regime ............


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## Debroos (Jul 29, 2020)

Lengthy, polite but definitely fed up email sent.

Is it just me but I am getting quite depressed by all this negative stuff about us. I love our van but it's really putting me off going anywhere.
 Covid is bad enough but this is worse!


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## Obanboy666 (Jul 29, 2020)

Unbelievable !
Email sent.


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## Fisherman (Jul 29, 2020)

Rather busy right now but I will be emailing this clown and pointing out a few facts of life to this ignoramus.
Quite frankly it beggars belief that this moron is an MP his lack of basic understanding of the situation is breathtaking in the extreme.

The only good thing is if Sturgeon ever gets to read this pile of tosh, she will put into her file named bin.

But sadly this is the kind of thing I have been banging on about on here.
Idiots like this can come out with drivel like this and be listened to, and apart from individuals telling him about the birds and the bees,
We have no organisation to counter this.

I will post my reply to him on here.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 29, 2020)

witzend said:


> *Don,t forget that only a small minority of people see any benefit from tourists to the majority they are just a hinderance to their normal life*. Here in Cornwall most people would be glad if we never saw any *even the English who have second homes here have a dislike of visitors* pubs an restraunts busy with them making it hard to find a seat Many places we now have to pay to visit that once was free Lands End to name one



Well that's because, unfortunately, you live in an attractive part of the world.

I guess if Cornwall cut itself off from the world it would survive fine, then?
Maybe we can resurrect Hadrian's army for you and build a wall to keep the marauding foreign hordes out?  

Then it would be just Cornish residents plus all those many holiday properties that would stand empty with no occupants contributing to the daily local economy.

Second homers. They can afford to dislike visitors because they don't need them to make money and can be as nimby as they like.

Land's End has charged an entry fee for donkey's years. Are you maybe talking 18th century?!    
'Tis no worse than the hundred's of other touristy places around the UK that charge a fee for entry to their so-called 'attractions'.


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## Debroos (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Well that's because, unfortunately, you live in an attractive part of the world.
> 
> I guess if Cornwall cut itself off from the world it would survive fine, then?
> Maybe we can resurrect Hadrian's army for you and build a wall to keep the marauding foreign hordes out?
> ...


Hey up. I can remember Lands End being enclosed and I'm not that old 
I think Cornwall was just being used as an example in that post.
Having said that there have always been a lot of folk here who dislike the emmets...


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## Tookey (Jul 29, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> Don't confuse the gross weight of a vehicle with the pressure that is applied to the ground by the tyres. I'm often told I'm too fat for the ground conditions by those that don't understand.


I don't understand. Don't want to 'hi jack' this thread but would be interested if you started a new one.


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## mickymost (Jul 29, 2020)

Oh no not another moaner jumping on the recent bandwagon having a dig at responsible motorhomers.I agree with another reply on here .Its the heavy good vehicles breaking up the Roads (not having a go a you Mr Laird) Especially the logging wagons who I have had constant experience battling with when touring Scotland..They dont give way,they dont stop and come straight at you down the single track fragile roads.This MP should be aware of this if he lives in Scotland Highlands and grew up there.And again I feel its not the Motorhomes leaving faeces and rubbish etc on the side of these roads.Its tent campers but the worst one responsible will be the Day Trippers in cars WITH NO facilities i/e an onboard Toilet.Who is banning Daytrippers nobody.The NC500 has brought great much needed income to the area and its not just Motorhomers and Campervans it has attracted.This MP Is a complete idiot in my book.


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## mickymost (Jul 29, 2020)

runnach said:


> Here’s another one doing the rounds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So they suspend the advertising for the NC500.Does this twat think that will stop visitors to Scotland. If Krankie gets her way (not happening)we will probably need a visa and a passport to visit Scotland anyway.Is that really what the businesses in Scotland want whose livelihoods depend on tourism want.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 29, 2020)

Perhaps this is what happens when you Brexit? 

Sets a leading example to all those who want to entrench themselves in their locality and keep everybody else away.

Licence to build a few Berlin-type Walls maybe?


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## Tookey (Jul 29, 2020)

mickymost said:


> So they suspend the advertising for the NC500.Does this twat think that will stop visitors to Scotland. If Krankie gets her way (not happening)we will probably need a visa and a passport to visit Scotland anyway.Is that really what the businesses in Scotland want whose livelihoods depend on tourism want.


The blessing in that petition is a good proportion of the people that have signed it have commented that advertising the 500 without the infrastructure in place was the actual problem


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## yorkslass (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Perhaps this is what happens when you Brexit?
> 
> Sets a leading example to all those who want to entrench themselves in their locality and keep everybody else away.
> 
> Licence to build a few Berlin-type Walls maybe?


Hope that if they do build walls they will be better than the one Trump had built to stop the hordes from the south invading.......some of it blew down.


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## GeoffL (Jul 29, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> Don't confuse the gross weight of a vehicle with the pressure that is applied to the ground by the tyres. I'm often told I'm too fat for the ground conditions by those that don't understand.


FWIW, I posted the maths to a shower of anti-4x4 cyclists over on a cycling forum many years ago. The pressure on the road (in psi) and hence the likelihood of damage, is given by the mass of vehicle and occupants (in pounds) divided by the total contact area (in square inches) between the tyres and the road. Although bicycles are very light, an average road bicycle has a miniscule contact area and so the pressure exerted on the road by a typical 'roadie' cyclist is considerably greater than that exerted by a full-sized 4x4! FWIW, as a rough approximation, the tyre pressure also gives a rough estimate of pressure on the road. So a typical 'roadie' (~100 to 120 psi) will exert more pressure on the road than any motorhome I know of, and even MTBs typically run with tyres inflated to over 50 psi...


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## runnach (Jul 29, 2020)

Think of a stiletto heel on your foot or the damage they do to a dance floor


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## Tookey (Jul 29, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> FWIW, I posted the maths to a shower of anti-4x4 cyclists over on a cycling forum many years ago. The pressure on the road (in psi) and hence the likelihood of damage, is given by the mass of vehicle and occupants (in pounds) divided by the total contact area (in square inches) between the tyres and the road. Although bicycles are very light, an average road bicycle has a miniscule contact area and so the pressure exerted on the road by a typical 'roadie' cyclist is considerably greater than that exerted by a full-sized 4x4! FWIW, as a rough approximation, the tyre pressure also gives a rough estimate of pressure on the road. So a typical 'roadie' (~100 to 120 psi) will exert more pressure on the road than any motorhome I know of, and even MTBs typically run with tyres inflated to over 50 psi...



I suppose where this falls down is on a road that is poorly maintained and the spread weight (contact area) is diminished hugely when on the edge of a pot hole for instance ....... I am not anti 4x4, only interested. So suspect the damage caused all depends on the state of the road to begin with


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## Fazerloz (Jul 29, 2020)

Signed.      


















Just messing.


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## trevskoda (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Well that's because, unfortunately, you live in an attractive part of the world.
> 
> I guess if Cornwall cut itself off from the world it would survive fine, then?
> Maybe we can resurrect Hadrian's army for you and build a wall to keep the marauding foreign hordes out?
> ...


Like these ones,me like .


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## SquirrellCook (Jul 29, 2020)

Tookey said:


> I don't understand. Don't want to 'hi jack' this thread but would be interested if you started a new one.


Every vehicle has a footprint. Many larger vehicles have a large footprint to improve tyre life and traction  A smaller vehicle can have a proportionally smaller footprint to improve fuel economy at the expense of putting more pressure on the road. Also more likely to sink in soft ground.


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## Vanterrier (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I suppose he, and they, would be a lot happier if we rebuilt Hadrian's Wall and prevented anyone in a motorised vehicle from crossing the border into Scotland at all.


Just a small detail but you dont cross Hadrians Wall into Scotland  its ALL in England, both sides.
K


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## GeoffL (Jul 29, 2020)

Tookey said:


> I suppose where this falls down is on a road that is poorly maintained and the spread weight (contact area) is diminished hugely when on the edge of a pot hole for instance ....... I am not anti 4x4, only interested. So suspect the damage caused all depends on the state of the road to begin with


Not really. Think tyre pressure. Unless the road is already in an 'unserviceable' state, the tyres deform to follow the variations in road surface and the pressure on the road is maintained (give or take a little). If the road surface is too bad for this then the damage is already done and it's the lack of maintenance by the highways authority that is to blame!


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## GeoffL (Jul 29, 2020)

Just a thought, but Wee Krankie wants to change the law North of the border so that it is unlawful to say or write anything that causes, or is likely to cause, offense to anyone. Perhaps it's time to mention that Jamie Stone MP offends decent motorhomers by his libellous accusations and, under Krankie's new law, would probably have committed a criminal offence?


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## Toffeecat (Jul 29, 2020)

If the MP doesnt belive in discrimination and all being treated equally then he will be campaining for Leeds and Liverpool fans being banned from city centres due to complaints of rubbish being left, of people from Bournemouth bech for the same, for demonstrations etc etc. Or as I suspect, all of us are treated equal just some are more equal than others or to put another way discrimination is wrong and everyone is treated the same........except for some.


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## Toffeecat (Jul 29, 2020)

FF sake just build some bloody Aires!


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## antiquesam (Jul 29, 2020)

Vanterrier said:


> Just a small detail but you dont cross Hadrians Wall into Scotland  its ALL in England, both sides.
> K


They can have Northumberland. Another place that doesn't like motorhomes.


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## mickymost (Jul 29, 2020)

Toffeecat said:


> FF sake just build some bloody Aires!




Laughing cos youre right not laughing at you!


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 29, 2020)

Vanterrier said:


> Just a small detail but you dont cross Hadrians Wall into Scotland  its ALL in England, both sides.
> K



Alright then, let's make it the Antonine Wall instead  

We'll banish any stray midges to the north of it as an additional perk and keep lovely Dumfries & Galloway and the Borders to ourselves


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## mickymost (Jul 29, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Alright then, let's make it the Antonine Wall instead
> 
> We'll banish any stray midges to the north of it as an additional perk and keep lovely Dumfries & Galloway and the Borders to ourselves




Now that sounds like a plan Marie  gotta love it when a plan comes together!!!!!!!


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## Isnbill (Jul 29, 2020)

And another one, press articles are almost daily now, the councillor/media onslaught is relentless.









						Highland councillor lodges petition calling for 'no wild camping' zones
					

A Sutherland councillor is pleading with the Scottish Government to consider "no wild camping" zones in sensitive areas of the Highlands. Kirsteen Currie,




					www.pressandjournal.co.uk


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## mickymost (Jul 30, 2020)

Isnbill said:


> And another one, press articles are almost daily now, the councillor/media onslaught is relentless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This article refers to tent camping.She hasnt mentioned Motorhomes.She does mention the sides of the Road being eroded because of parking.So does she want to ban all car drivers then from Scotland?Car drivers who pay road tax to be on the roads.
Of course it hits a nerve in us when we see another complainer but its tents.Wonder if thats her Volkswagen campervan in the background behind her?I bet it is.


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## molly 2 (Jul 30, 2020)

All this talk  of Scotland , is it time  for a wee dram ?


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## mickymost (Jul 30, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> All this talk  of Scotland , is it time  for a wee dram ?



oh yes go for it


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## molly 2 (Jul 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> FWIW, I posted the maths to a shower of anti-4x4 cyclists over on a cycling forum many years ago. The pressure on the road (in psi) and hence the likelihood of damage, is given by the mass of vehicle and occupants (in pounds) divided by the total contact area (in square inches) between the tyres and the road. Although bicycles are very light, an average road bicycle has a miniscule contact area and so the pressure exerted on the road by a typical 'roadie' cyclist is considerably greater than that exerted by a full-sized 4x4! FWIW, as a rough approximation, the tyre pressure also gives a rough estimate of pressure on the road. So a typical 'roadie' (~100 to 120 psi) will exert more pressure on the road than any motorhome I know of, and even MTBs typically run with tyres inflated to over 50 psi...


I must be missing the point  , I would sooner have my foot run over  by a push bike  than a motorhome .


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## jagmanx (Jul 30, 2020)

molly 2 said:


> I must be missing the point  , I would sooner have my foot run over  by a push bike  than a motorhome .


Think Stiletto heels and dance floors...More surface damage than an elephant as said elephant's foot area is so much larger !


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## jagmanx (Jul 30, 2020)

Simple Populism Politics..
Trying to ensure he gets re-elected.

It seems many MP's of all parties are "playing the same game"
Oh!  Except the tories who simply do as Boris says

Remember the childrens, party game
"Simon Says do this" !..do it or you are out 
"Do this" do it you are out (No Simon)


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## peter palance (Jul 30, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> What a completely blinkered kn*b!
> 
> I would like to see the evidence of motorhomes being responsible for ruining Highland roads.
> Seems extremely unscientific. Highly emotive and irrational, imho.
> ...


yes and may be? keeping them in the e.e.u. i hope not,  it would be had to see my friends and family, so be-care-ful what you wish for. ok.pj.


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## Vanterrier (Jul 30, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Think Stiletto heels and dance floors...More surface damage than an elephant as said elephant's foot area is so much larger !


Elephants dancing in Stiletto heels??? Now that would be worth seeing
K


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## Vanterrier (Jul 30, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> They can have Northumberland. Another place that doesn't like motorhomes.


Err...

No.

K


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## antiquesam (Jul 30, 2020)

Vanterrier said:


> Err...
> 
> No.
> 
> K


Yes go on. I read in the "I" yesterday that the Northumberland accent is nearer Scots than Geordie, so I'm sorry you'll have to buy a skirt and learn to live on porridge, haggis and square sausages.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 30, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> Yes go on. I read in the "I" yesterday that *the Northumberland accent is nearer Scots than Geordie*, so I'm sorry you'll have to buy a skirt and learn to live on porridge, haggis and square sausages.



The Scottish accent is harsh by comparison - depending which part of Scotland of course.

The proper Northumbrian is much softer. The only similarity I can think of with the Scots is that they roll their 'R's in a Burns-like way.
I think it's a lovely accent. Nicer even than Geordie, if that's possible


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## antiquesam (Jul 30, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> The Scottish accent is harsh by comparison - depending which part of Scotland of course.
> 
> The proper Northumbrian is much softer. The only similarity I can think of with the Scots is that they roll their 'R's in a Burns-like way.
> I think it's a lovely accent. Nicer even than Geordie, if that's possible


I came over all weak after reading that comment of yours.  One of the examples was "dinna" as opposed to the Geordie "divnt". Mind you there's a fair chance the writer doesn't know where Northumberland is.


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## in h (Jul 30, 2020)

Unless and until the benefits of tourism are shared, this is understandable. 
However, a congestion charge normally applies to locals as well as visitors. Interesting idea.
Last year they were pressing for a tourist tax.
Next year they'll be begging for a tourist.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 30, 2020)

That old cliche - can't have your cake and eat it?


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## GeoffL (Jul 30, 2020)

in h said:


> Unless and until the benefits of tourism are shared, this is understandable.
> However, a congestion charge normally applies to locals as well as visitors. Interesting idea.
> Last year they were pressing for a tourist tax.
> Next year they'll be begging for a tourist.


Whether tourism is beneficial depends upon your point of view. As a naturalised Cornishman who doesn't profit from tourism, the annual influx of emmets is a PITA. For a quarter or more of each year, the roads are choked and the campsites full to bursting -- so locals can't go anywhere quickly and you can't get a pitch unless you book weeks in advance. I suspect that it's the same for most Scots who don't work in the tourist industry and so I can understand why they kick out. (Just saying...)


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## Debroos (Jul 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Whether tourism is beneficial depends upon your point of view. As a naturalised Cornishman who doesn't profit from tourism, the annual influx of emmets is a PITA. For a quarter or more of each year, the roads are choked and the campsites full to bursting -- so locals can't go anywhere quickly and you can't get a pitch unless you book weeks in advance. I suspect that it's the same for most Scots who don't work in the tourist industry and so I can understand why they kick out. (Just saying...)



To a born and bred Cornish man there is no such thing as a 'naturalised'  Cornishman!  Only incomers. Just sayin'...
Btw what does PITA mean?


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## Fisherman (Jul 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Whether tourism is beneficial depends upon your point of view. As a naturalised Cornishman who doesn't profit from tourism, the annual influx of emmets is a PITA. For a quarter or more of each year, the roads are choked and the campsites full to bursting -- so locals can't go anywhere quickly and you can't get a pitch unless you book weeks in advance. I suspect that it's the same for most Scots who don't work in the tourist industry and so I can understand why they kick out. (Just saying...)



Geoff,

Cornwall And Devon are  lovely places.  Although it’s a fair old distance for us to get there from Scotland I have done so several times and have enjoyed my time there. But Cornwall without a working community dependent on amongst other things tourism would not be what it is today. You and others who only view Cornwall as a place of retirement would not have many of the facilities that you both need and enjoy. You say you cannot book into campsites without having to book months in advance. Without infiltration from outside Cornwall there would not be many if any campsites. Cornwall is not an island, and neither are any rural locations in our islands. You need visitors in numbers for the very survival of what you take for granted. You also stated that your roads are choked up, having driven your roads I am not surprised, you have some of the worse roads I have ever driven upon. Perhaps instead of blaming the very tourists you need for such issues, you should consider laying the blame on lack of investment on your road network.


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## in h (Jul 30, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Btw what does PITA mean?


Posterior In Tremendous Agony


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## TeamRienza (Jul 30, 2020)

I think tourism in this country is seen as the goose that lays golden eggs, especially in a country that seems to be devoid of manufacturing as opposed to service and finance industries.
Places that are attractive will undoubtedly draw large numbers (particularly in the current situation), indeed there there is incessant demand by tourist driven bodies and companies to have visitors. This is not just a UK problem There is a simple choice to be made. Cater for the demand with infrastructure or else stop touting for business and making it possible for people to visit (parking, close accommodation, campsites etc) and live with the consequences. Unless you have moved to an area through direction by an employer then you become part of the problem all year round wether retiring there or owning a second home or a buy to let etc.
I moved from a rural location some years ago to a small seaside resort which explodes during the summer with all the attendant problems, however we factored this into the pros and cons and accept the issue. Solution is to get in the van and go elsewhere and then enjoy the town for 9 quieter months of the year.

Davy


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## trevskoda (Jul 30, 2020)

Vanterrier said:


> Elephants dancing in Stiletto heels??? Now that would be worth seeing
> K


I have seen a few here,


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## Debroos (Jul 30, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Cornwall And Devon are  lovely places.  Although it’s a fair old distance for us to get there from Scotland I have done so several times and have enjoyed my time there. But Cornwall without a working community dependent on amongst other things tourism would not be what it is today. You and others who only view Cornwall as a place of retirement would not have many of the facilities that you both need and enjoy. You say you cannot book into campsites without having to book months in advance. Without infiltration from outside Cornwall there would not be many if any campsites. Cornwall is not an island, and neither are any rural locations in our islands. You need visitors in numbers for the very survival of what you take for granted. You also stated that your roads are choked up, having driven your roads I am not surprised, you have some of the worse roads I have ever driven upon. Perhaps instead of blaming the very tourists you need for such issues, you should consider laying the blame on lack of investment on your road network.



I would add to that, that if one lives in a beautiful area it is incumbent to be willing to share that beauty with others, especially given that many of them live in towns and cities.  Thisyear even more so....

I do reserve my right to have a mutter and moan though when I can't park or some eejit in a shiny range rover refuses to go any where near the hedge when there is clearly enough room to pass!!


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## jagmanx (Jul 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Whether tourism is beneficial depends upon your point of view. As a naturalised Cornishman who doesn't profit from tourism, the annual influx of emmets is a PITA. For a quarter or more of each year, the roads are choked and the campsites full to bursting -- so locals can't go anywhere quickly and you can't get a pitch unless you book weeks in advance. I suspect that it's the same for most Scots who don't work in the tourist industry and so I can understand why they kick out. (Just saying...)


Not sure what you mean by Natruralised but maybe you have chosen to live there for whatever reason..Immaterial.

However I suggest you do benefit..(if not profit directly)
Tourists bring cash for
Hotels Campsites B&B cottage rentals holiday Flats and more
All these pay taxes to the local council(s)
Then there is employment of locals to service the above
Also food and provisions will mainly be bought locally thus employing people etc.
We also have the local tourist infrastructure
Entrance fees, Boat trips, surfing. Restaurants Fish & chips cafes Bars
Car park fees etc etc etc
Thus again providing income for the councils
Thus without tourism the county would be "Dead on it feet" finacially and locals would have no chance of buying homes and continuing to live in Cornwall

YES a PITA  as are many industrial sites in other areas


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## GeoffL (Jul 30, 2020)

Debroos said:


> To a born and bred Cornish man there is no such thing as a 'naturalised'  Cornishman!  Only incomers. Just sayin'...


True enough. Even though almost all my ancestors on my father's side were Cornish born and bred, my wife is Cornish, and I've lived in Cornwall for most of my life, I was born outside the county, which is why I only claim 'naturalisation'.

Regards infrastructure, AFAICT the rules only permit highways funding adequate to support the permanent population and minor roads are funded by local council tax. This is why there are no motorways in Cornwall and it's taken what seems like forever to get most of the A30 dualled even though the summer 'population' warrants a 'trans-Cornwall' motorway. Outside the tourist season, the roads in Cornwall are more than adequate -- and I suspect the same applies in the Scottish Highlands. I agree that infrastructure should be put in place to accommodate the visitors, but IMO it's unfair to lumber a small, permanent population in the lowest-paid areas of the UK to make the roads etc. fit for visitors from the most wealthy regions and so this should be a central responsibility. That said, just watch eco-mentalists object to any infrastructure improvement. Just saying...



			
				Jagmanx said:
			
		

> Thus without tourism the county would be "Dead on it feet" finacially and locals would have no chance of buying homes and continuing to live in Cornwall


Oh boy, you've just hit another thorny issue. Most locals cannot afford to buy homes right now because of the low wages and the second-home market pushing prices up to what only those from London etc. can afford. Near my home, most of the villages become ghost towns in the winter as all the wealthy second-home owners leave.


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## jagmanx (Jul 30, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I have seen a few here,View attachment 84865


Tusk Tusk
Thanks for the Mammaries


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## maureenandtom (Jul 30, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Geoff,
> 
> Cornwall And Devon are  lovely places.  Although it’s a fair old distance for us to get there from Scotland I have done so several times and have enjoyed my time there. But Cornwall without a working community dependent on amongst other things tourism would not be what it is today. You and others who only view Cornwall as a place of retirement would not have many of the facilities that you both need and enjoy. You say you cannot book into campsites without having to book months in advance. Without infiltration from outside Cornwall there would not be many if any campsites. Cornwall is not an island, and neither are any rural locations in our islands. You need visitors in numbers for the very survival of what you take for granted. You also stated that your roads are choked up, having driven your roads I am not surprised, you have some of the worse roads I have ever driven upon. Perhaps instead of blaming the very tourists you need for such issues, you should consider laying the blame on lack of investment on your road network.



A few years ago those who campaigned at that time opposed the restrictions that Cornwall County Council  was implementing thorughout the county.     Surprisingly there was a fairly positive response - though the restrictions were still imposed.   John Thompson's organisation, the tmcto was asked to provide a spokesman to talk to a council meeting about the possibility of providing some sort of motorhome support.   Both John and I were abroad at the time and neither of us could attend;  we weren't invited to attend again.

We couldn't find anyone willing to go and the opportuity was lost.    The council didn;t ask me - though I'd been in contact with them and we thought John was invited because of his tmcto website, that is, I was an individual;  John was a representative.

My initial approach to named councillors is below.   We don't know what value it had in prompting John's invitation but it may have had some.

EDIT>  The opportunity was lost but it did exist and could exist again;  not just for Cornwall but anywhere if we can find the right approach.


----------



## Poacher (Jul 31, 2020)

The following was sent to Jamie  the NIMBY by email........

*Jamie*
_*
Having read recent news, I understand you have recently written to Nicola Sturgeon implying Motorhome and campervan owners are the cause of certain problems in your constituency and are ruining the roads.  I am now considering writing to all 205 Motorhome and campervan owners living in the constituency for their views.
*_
*Kind regards*

He has a majority of 204 in his constituency **


----------



## maureenandtom (Jul 31, 2020)

You're a bad man.

Love it.

It shows, I think, that the MP worries about his small majority and sees an oportunity to milk a little outrage, add ot it if he can, and reap the benefit of a few more votes.   I see this guy more as keeping his job than caring for the economy and the environment.


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## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

As promised here my wee letter to Mr Stone.


Dear Mr Stone,

After reading your letter regarding damage caused by Motorhomes in your constituency and apparent blockages they create to your road network, I was at first thinking that this was some kind of practical joke. But when I realised that this was actually to be taken seriously I was shocked at the lack of basic understanding of what the current situation regarding how roads are funded, and the law pertaining to parking which creates an obstruction to other road users. I was also offended by your reference to mess left and it’s apparent connection with Motorhome users.

First let me guide you towards what’s involved when purchasing a Motorhome and it’s maintenance. I purchased a new Motorhome only last year and paid £12,000 plus in vat.
I then paid road fund duty at the rate of £265 per annum, and approx 80% of what I pay for fuel is tax. I also have to pay tax when insuring my vehicle, and having both its habitation equipment and engine serviced annually. As far as I am concerned HM government are free to use these taxes as they see fit. May I respectfully request that you contact them for any additional funding regarding your road network.

As for us causing excessive damage I would would like to see on what basis you make such a judgment. Over 90% of campers and Motorhomes are classed as private LIGHT goods vehicles. Their unladen weights are generally under 3t with a max loaded weight of 3.5t. Many SUV vehicles are of a similar weight. Would you wish them to pay this levy also. Then we have logging and other HGV vehicles weighting ten times our weight and more. What levy do you propose for them. Also how do you propose to collect this levy, and how do you propose to monitor exit and entry into your area regarding this levy that you are proposing. Also how much more do you propose we pay, and will this be all year round or only the summer months. Also you have thousands of owners of these vehicles in your own area, should they pay also. And finally should this be rolled out into other parts of the country, meaning as we cross from one boundary to another we would pay whatever levy was applied to each area. Writing to Nicola Sturgeon to apply such a levy when the snp removed all bridge tariffs seems rather pointless, and even pedantic.

Next you reckon that we create obstructions causing problems on your roads. Can I remind or inform you that under the road traffic laws this is an offence resulting in heavy fines and or removal of your vehicle. May I respectfully request that if you or any of your unfortunate constituents should contact Police Scotland on such matters. I am sure that they will be more than happy to deal with theirs or your requests.

You completely contradict yourself when you state that you fully support the tourist industry in your area.  If you really care about your tourist industry may I suggest the following.
Instead of creating pointless, ill thought out petitions, which will only serve to damage your industry why don’t you actually do something positive and involve some forward thinking. Why don’t you put in place basic facilities for Motorhomes in strategic places and charge them for their use.

Quite frankly your petition has all the hallmarks of an mp worried about his slim majority looking for populists measures to boost his position. But I reckon you scored an own goal here Mr Stone.

Regards

Bill.


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## myvanwy (Jul 31, 2020)

Copy to Ms Sturgeon perhaps?


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## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

myvanwy said:


> Copy to Ms Sturgeon perhaps?



Feel free to use it as you wish.


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## mickymost (Jul 31, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> As promised here my wee letter to Mr Stone.
> 
> 
> Dear Mr Stone,
> ...




Bill well you cant beat a wee letter which is straight to the point.For some reason I feel this MP Jamie  is not long out of nappies i/e a very young fellow who needs leading by the nose.If many others on here pen him a similar email maybe the penny will drop.
atb.


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## jagmanx (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes but such a letter does little overall..Not decrying your efforts Bill on this and other similar matters.

I have also read Maureen&Tom's email pdf comparing Cornwall and Finistere
A thought is should we change tack ?

Most of our letters although excellent are in effect asking
*"What can you/your council/your tourist agency do for motorhomers !*

Change the emphasis to
* "What can motorhomers do for you !" or Look at the benefits of motorhomes visiting/staying*
Of course the main thing is by spending money in the area.
But we need to enhance this. Yes more money spent in
Food shops Pubs etc thus also helping with employment.
Visitor attractions and local tours/boat trips
Holiday shops souvenirs local products and more
Daytime Parking fees often up to £3 a time
Overnight parking fees ( it seems £15 may well be the chosen figure although I, stingily, suggest £10 )
Diesel & gas
ALL   also give local employment which is of benefit to the comminity as well as the council
We as a group subscribe too environmentally friendly ideas. We are commited to full consideration to others, and the areas we use. we do not leave litter or any other waste and often we tidy up after other tourists, some of whom are less than considerate


All told we spend about £1,000 a month as we tend not to spend too much on "tourist Items" and we do not eat out much (just F&C)
I expect some to spend rather more if they like pub/restaurant meals
I am sure others can add to the list and provide more info on Monthly spend

The latest proposal at Fisherrow harbour is good news
The area has good pubs restaurants , the town centre is pleasant and a nice walk.
There is also a theatre and the prom itself is nice
Yes camp-sites can be cheaper but "Location location location"

PS as Bill @Fisherman rightly points out, *Damage to highways is irrelevant*
As maureen & tom point out *no welcome or facilities  = NoGo *


----------



## vanmandan (Jul 31, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I have seen a few here,View attachment 84865



dancing pink elephants....... see Disneys Dumbo.......






also hear a cover by Sun Ra........


----------



## royh28 (Jul 31, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Yes but such a letter does little overall..Not decrying your efforts Bill on this and other similar matters.
> 
> I have also read Maureen&Tom's email pdf comparing Cornwall and Finistere
> A thought is should we change tack ?
> ...


We visit Fisherrow harbour often but have not heard of any plans. Can you clarify?
Thanks. Pauline and Roy.


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## jagmanx (Jul 31, 2020)

Originally @runnach








						Campers
					

Overnight Stays at Fisherrow Please be considerate and do not plan to stay overnight in a vehicle at Fisherrow at the moment. Without an Aire scheme, there really is no facility to accommodate campervans or motorhomes at Fisherrow.  Without a way to manage the number of visitors, the area has at




					www.fhsa.org.uk


----------



## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Yes but such a letter does little overall..Not decrying your efforts Bill on this and other similar matters.
> 
> I have also read Maureen&Tom's email pdf comparing Cornwall and Finistere
> A thought is should we change tack ?
> ...



I felt that I wanted to cover his points.
If I started going into other issues the letter would have been even longer.
Brevity was at risk, and I decided not to mention these issues.
But hopefully someone else will highlight this to Mr Stone.


----------



## jagmanx (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes better to focus on debunking his comments!


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## GeoffL (Jul 31, 2020)

Firstly, I'm not against tourism per se (otherwise, I wouldn't be a motorhomer) -- and I'm playing Devil's advocate here to help understanding of why tourists might not be welcomed by the general population in 'tourist destinations'.

While it's been suggested that the hoi polloi of Cornwall (and Scotland?) benefit from tourism, the alleged benefit is much less than you might think and, in Cornwall at least, some forms of tourism have been detrimental both to the economy and community. Many tourism business are owned by outsiders, so much of the profit doesn't stay in the county, and a lot of seasonal jobs go to outsiders, who either take the money with them at the end of the season or spend it at non-local businesses (think Tesco et al.)

However, the most destructive element of tourism is the second-home problem, which has over half the housing in some areas unavailable to locals (even if they could afford it). This has created a massive shortage of affordable housing, obliging locals to move away, which has reduced the workforce available to 'regular' businesses, which have consequently located away from the county, resulting in fewer jobs, further depressing the already low wages and hence the GDP of the area. Outliers snapping up Cornish properties in popular areas for use as holiday lets only exacerbates the issue further. There are loopholes that allow holiday lets to escape business rates and misuse of AirBnB etc. means that some (many?) who should pay rates don't. Overall, annual council revenue is reduced.

In the meantime, the two traditional industries of Cornwall (minining and fishing) have been destroyed -- one by UK Government; the other by EU policy -- and no significant industry has moved in to take their place. Tourism probably welcomes this as the lack of industry helps make the region pretty, quaint and picturesque -- more 'touristy'.



			
				Cornish folk song lyrics said:
			
		

> Cornishmen are fishermen
> And Cornishmen are miners too
> But when the fish and tin are gone
> What are the Cornishmen to do


Many have/had no choice but sell out to wealthy outsiders and move out of the county, leaving many villages desolate out of season; while, in season, the roads are jam-packed with cars bearing 'foreign' registration plates.

So don't think that the average man in the street owes anything to tourists.


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## antiquesam (Jul 31, 2020)

I see your point GeoffL,  but this is the story of every pretty place in Europe. Native home owners don't have to sell at sky high prices to outsiders. They could sell to a local at a sensible price, but money has a certain allure when you can move out of an old cramped house into a pretty new bungalow in a less expensive area.
I don't really understand the idea that someone would sell their business to an outsider if it was profitable, unless the money was the allure, with dreams of early retirement, and why would anyone buy it if they couldn't see a living to be made?


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## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Firstly, I'm not against tourism per se (otherwise, I wouldn't be a motorhomer) -- and I'm playing Devil's advocate here to help understanding of why tourists might not be welcomed by the general population in 'tourist destinations'.
> 
> While it's been suggested that the hoi polloi of Cornwall (and Scotland?) benefit from tourism, the alleged benefit is much less than you might think and, in Cornwall at least, some forms of tourism have been detrimental both to the economy and community. Many tourism business are owned by outsiders, so much of the profit doesn't stay in the county, and a lot of seasonal jobs go to outsiders, who either take the money with them at the end of the season or spend it at non-local businesses (think Tesco et al.)
> 
> ...



Geoff I don’t disagree with what you are saying, but this thread was about an idiot who dreamt up some scheme on a whim to charge us a levy because of the damage we were doing to his roads. What you are stating regarding second homes and the problems that creates is a totally separate issue. 
He also accused us of blocking his roads when we make up less than 1% of the traffic on them.
The fact is places like Cornwall will always attract tourists and those wishing to buy second homes, and what’s required are measures from government to help with these issues, not hair brained schemes like the one proposed my mr Stone.


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## mickymost (Jul 31, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Geoff I don’t disagree with what you are saying, but this thread was about an idiot who dreamt up some scheme on a whim to charge us a levy because of the damage we were doing to his roads. What you are stating regarding second homes and the problems that creates is a totally separate issue.
> He also accused us of blocking his roads when we make up less than 1% of the traffic on them.
> The fact is places like Cornwall will always attract tourists and those wishing to buy second homes, and what’s required are measures from government to help with these issues, not hair brained schemes like the one proposed my mr Stone.




Bill dead right.People buying second homes or moving to a tourist area i/e Cornwall for instance to retire etc has been going on for years.I live near Skegness but lived in London for 40 years before coming here and many move to here from Nottingham  Mansfield Sheffield etc so Cant change that.Not many local born near me all "foreigners now" i/e moved from the cities to the tourist places.
And the same as Scotland Cornwall has narrow fragile roads but these again similar to Scotland are being eroded by HGVS etc.Yes HGVS are getting heavier and larger so will obviously in time wear down the road surface.Not the average 3.5 motorhome.Due to #Covid19 people are becoming protective of where they live and so like this young MP are dreaming up ridiculous schemes to extract even more out of the Motorhome/Campervan owner. Like you stated earlier it cost you £12000 in VAT (how much!) for your recent new Motorhome purchase so what else to these MPs want from us.Maybe they could look through their blinkers and actually do a logical survey of who and what type of vehicles actually use these so called fragile roads BEFORE any hair brained taxation scheme is introduced.


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## kyran (Jul 31, 2020)

no reply just a form letter telling me if i don't live there he cannot help

kyran


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## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

kyran said:


> no reply just a form letter telling me if i don't live there he cannot help
> 
> kyran



Help from Mr Stone MP, I reckon I could help him far more than he could help me.
If I am looking for help, I doubt if I would contact this idiot.


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## colinm (Jul 31, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> or spend it at non-local businesses (think Tesco et al.)



Just to address this one point, I would hazard a guess that the supermarket employees are people living in Cornwall, and whilst they might not like the hoards coming down there are quite happy to be employed, unless that is the mines open up again.


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## TeamRienza (Jul 31, 2020)

That was the basis of a reply made by an enlightened tourism officer in reply to a complaint of a Tesco delivery van delivering to a proper Aire near me by a resident trying to have the Aire closed.
The driver was probably from the local store where the picker and the rest of the staff were local and the store pay a good chunk of taxes (rates) to the council.
The same reply was given when the local Asian restaurant delivered to vans staying on the (fully legal) Aire.

Davy


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## Tookey (Jul 31, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Firstly, I'm not against tourism per se (otherwise, I wouldn't be a motorhomer) -- and I'm playing Devil's advocate here to help understanding of why tourists might not be welcomed by the general population in 'tourist destinations'.
> 
> While it's been suggested that the hoi polloi of Cornwall (and Scotland?) benefit from tourism, the alleged benefit is much less than you might think and, in Cornwall at least, some forms of tourism have been detrimental both to the economy and community. Many tourism business are owned by outsiders, so much of the profit doesn't stay in the county, and a lot of seasonal jobs go to outsiders, who either take the money with them at the end of the season or spend it at non-local businesses (think Tesco et al.)
> 
> ...


I was born and raised in Kingston Upon Thames, the average property price for a terraced house is £658,000 and a Semi-D is £756,000....I am a maintenance man and now live in the North, same $h1T different part of the country. All the old mining areas are still depressed and some fishing towns in the North are literally dying with properties lying empty and VERY high unemployment. Its a long way from ideal in Cornwall but personally I think many Cornish moan a little too loudly, if they paid attention to outside of the West country and had a look elsewhere I suspect many would consider themselves to be doing ok


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## barge1914 (Jul 31, 2020)

We live in the Peak District National Park, overrun by weekenders and day trippers from the Manchester and Sheffield conurbations, and a destination for holidaymakers from all over. Sure they are a bloody nuisance at times, and we prefer to go elsewhere in summer. Nevertheless, without them there would be a lot of people, especially young people out of work, and a depressed local economy, so for their benefit I can tolerate them...eeee but it was lovely and peaceful in lockdown.


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## Fisherman (Jul 31, 2020)

runnach said:


> Although Edinburgh International Festival and the Military Tattoo are cancelled for this year, when it was the norm, the city population doubles.
> 
> And Cornwall has a moan at having to deal with a handful of tourists, awe what a shame!



I think Edinburgh should charge a Levi for all the damage done to their pavements by obese people during the festival. I am thinking of starting a petition on this issue. Anyone heavier than 12 stone would have pay the Levi.
Also navigating from one part of Edinburgh to another during the festival is almost impossible. Perhaps a congestion charge could be applied here.

I fully support the tourist industry in Edinburgh, and the festival which brings millions to the city, whilst enhancing its worldwide reputation.

But hey why not Levi these people for supporting us with their custom, makes sense to me.

signed

Jamie Stone MP.


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## Deleted member 66363 (Jul 31, 2020)

I believe that the NC 500 route was outlined by the Scottish Tourist Board to encourage visitors to the area where there is little employment and to boost their sagging economy . I have done the route myself twice , both clockwise and anticlockwise and it is a great trip . We stayed for a couple of nights on a campsite at the start and end of the trip but in between camped wild in numerous locations only for a night in each spot. We never had an ounce of trouble , always took our rubbish and put it in the next bin we saw , same for the toilet and showering , we did it outside with Eco washing gel .

These people who are currently doing this trip , and there is obviously going to be more because people are not going abroad seem to be ruining it for the more responsible traveller leaving this trail of destruction behind them and thus the locals are tarring everyone with the brush . There is no excuse for this irresponsible behaviour , however I do have to point out that the local authorities are partly to blame as the rubbish bins in laybys , car parks are dwindling , and the same goes for Public Toilets are getting less and less .

Regarding the extra wear on the Scottish Road Network , all i can say is it appalling wherever you go , M74 , M80, M8, A9 etc etc . I have never seen so many potholes , lumps, bumps and tramlines . I can see why Mrs Sturgeon wanted to stay in the EU because that's the only way she would get funding for the road repairs as her coffers are empty and if Scotland get their Independence , God help the road network then !!

I have digressed a little but going back to the NC500 , or as the Tourism board describe as the "Scottish equivalent to the American Route 66 " (chuckle, chuckle) it has been mentioned about putting a Congestion Charge on it , what a load of tosh as we don't pay enough now!!! If they do that then I'll be staying away , they want their cake and eat it. They want the tourists to visit and spend loads of money but they don't want you to use their crappy roads , unbelievable.

Whilst I'm ranting , the Snowdonia National Park want`s to start charging people to go up Snowdon !!!!! .  I read yesterday that one campsite has charged £150 per night  and another one charges £5.00 per night for a dog.  I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a dog wander up to the shower block in his dressing gown and slippers with wash kit to have a shower , use the toilet and dry themself with the flipping hairdryer to warrant that charge . Who are these flipping idiots .
This country is literally going to the dogs .


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## trevskoda (Jul 31, 2020)

Who let the dogs out.


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## Isnbill (Aug 1, 2020)

Mickymost, wee bit off the mark thinking Jamie Stone is a young politician,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Stone_(politician)


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## mickymost (Aug 1, 2020)

Isnbill said:


> Mickymost, wee bit off the mark thinking Jamie Stone is a young politician,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Stone_(politician)




ok I stand corrected on this athough he still looks like someone you wouldnt trust with your life savings.


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## Wully (Aug 1, 2020)

Yep put me down I’m 100% against this 500 thing I can only count to 250 after that I get lost and end up back home I stay right in the middle.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 1, 2020)

Not really a thread drift.    I noticed this, this morning.



			Torbay Was Already Struggling. Covid-19 Could Devastate It
		


So things are hurting, or will hurt, in Torbay.   So I thought I'd look up their attitude to motorhomes:









						Campervan and motor home parking
					

Find out where you can park campervans and motor homes in Torbay.




					www.torbay.gov.uk
				









An opportunity to approach the council;?  A suggestion that already permitted daytime parking is extended to include overnighting?


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## Val54 (Aug 1, 2020)

This is what being a politician does to you ....


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## Deleted member 66363 (Aug 1, 2020)

Val54 said:


> This is what being a politician does to you ....
> View attachment 84914View attachment 84915


Those two could be the next Morecambe and Wise or Two Ronnies .


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## Deleted member 66363 (Aug 1, 2020)

More and more every year our freedom of movement to go where we want or park where we want are are getting more restrictive . I have a Citroen Relay van which is my everyday vehicle , work and leisure and yet I am blocked from some car parks due to height barriers even in tourist areas and country parks . I even went to go into a small retail park to visit a certain camping store and couldn't get in because the barrier , so I went in through the way out as there was no barrier,  (naughty boy I am) but it is getting beyond .

Going back to wild camping this country is so restricted , only legally allowed in Scotland but not in England or Wales it makes me so mad. The actual freedoms we do have in reality are very poor as regards to where you can go or park . Take the USA for instance , you can virtually go anywhere off the beaten track , mountains, lakes , forests into valleys and canyons without restriction whether it be off roading , wild camping , expedition trails and that's with wild animals lurking around . We can't even park in a street without a restriction or meter in place . it is not just the States , there countries all over the world that allow these recreational pursuits without restriction .

The mountains , lakes , forests within our country rightly belong to the people . The local authorities , Forestry Commissions , National Park Trusts , private consortiums should not have the right to restrict our access should we wish to do so , even if we wanted to park up and camp . The way I see it that none of these bodies have these areas legally . These were stripped from us centuries ago by Dukes , Earls and the like , ever since the land grab has got bigger and bigger . None of those legally purchased the land and yet it has been incorporated into the family legacy and handed down through generations . If these bodies wish to take on the management the forests , woodland , lakes etc then so be it , that is their choice but it should not be at the cost of our freedom to access these beautiful areas when and where we like . 

We only get one life and that life is not always long enough in some cases , so we should be allowed to enjoy it to its fullest . I'm sure that God made this world for everyone to enjoy without restriction, persecution or having to pay to enjoy what he gave us freely.


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## groyne (Aug 1, 2020)

maureenandtom said:


> Not really a thread drift.    I noticed this, this morning.
> 
> 
> View attachment 84911
> ...




Same old same old, pay the Council a stopping tax during the day, then give a local councillor £30 to park in his field for the night.


As for the NC 500, (and any other tourist scheme for that matter) they should stop advertising it until;

 A) They've done more consultation with the locals.
 B)  Inproved the infrastructure.


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## GreggBear (Aug 1, 2020)

Surely the nc500 is just a collective group of public roads? If that is the case, then as the owner of a fully road legal vehicle, why should I need any permission to drive this route?
Why should I need special permission to park on any public stretch of highway as long as I aren't causing an obstruction?
The life is being squeezed out of this country by greedy thieving politicians & local councils who seek to control every aspect of everyone's enjoyment of things that should be free for all. Why should I have to pay anything up to 50 quid plus per night just to park my vehicle in an area I don't live in?
The whole system stinks, it has become an affront to all of us who seek only to enjoy our leisure time. Banning everyone just because a few leave a mess is a childish excuse & makes no sense. Why do we all blindly put up with it? The situation is ridiculous & getting worse by the day. Soon our freedom will be gone altogether.
This country is run by greedy corrupt people who care not for the opinions of any of us....
I'm seriously considering ditching the bus altogether, its becoming a source of dismay & frustration & very little joy anymore. Probably just go back to a bike/trike & tent, at least there's a rally every week with no hassle about parking/camping.....


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## Fisherman (Aug 1, 2020)

GreggBear said:


> Surely the nc500 is just a collective group of public roads? If that is the case, then as the owner of a fully road legal vehicle, why should I need any permission to drive this route?
> Why should I need special permission to park on any public stretch of highway as long as I aren't causing an obstruction?
> The life is being squeezed out of this country by greedy thieving politicians & local councils who seek to control every aspect of everyone's enjoyment of things that should be free for all. Why should I have to pay anything up to 50 quid plus per night just to park my vehicle in an area I don't live in?
> The whole system stinks, it has become an affront to all of us who seek only to enjoy our leisure time. Banning everyone just because a few leave a mess is a childish excuse & makes no sense. Why do we all blindly put up with it? The situation is ridiculous & getting worse by the day. Soon our freedom will be gone altogether.
> ...



Gregg you hit a few nails on the head there, and I agree with each and everyone of them. We have to realise that when we are marked out for special treatment that this affects our freedom. Our taxes both past and present have paid for these carparks why should we be treated any different, what’s so special about us. Yes we have numpties amongst us, but then numpties come in all shapes and sizes and they don’t all drive Motorhomes. Why do we put up with it, well we don’t just put up with it, some of us support what’s going on. 
And we are not contracted to support local communities, how and where we spend our money is our business. Having the tag freeloader put upon us is wrong, wether or not we try to support local communities, many of whom due to bias reporting from the media, or simple laziness accepting nimbys POV as fact, despise us yet look to us for support.


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## jagmanx (Aug 1, 2020)

Minehead now has the grumps


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## Debroos (Aug 1, 2020)

Tookey said:


> I was born and raised in Kingston Upon Thames, the average property price for a terraced house is £658,000 and a Semi-D is £756,000....I am a maintenance man and now live in the North, same $h1T different part of the country. All the old mining areas are still depressed and some fishing towns in the North are literally dying with properties lying empty and VERY high unemployment. Its a long way from ideal in Cornwall but personally I think many Cornish moan a little too loudly, if they paid attention to outside of the West country and had a look elsewhere I suspect many would consider themselves to be doing ok











						Maps show the 17 Cornwall neighbourhoods among poorest in England
					

Find out how deprived your area is compared to the rest of England




					www.cornwalllive.com
				




Trouble is the tourists never see the deprived areas....


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## Tookey (Aug 1, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Maps show the 17 Cornwall neighbourhoods among poorest in England
> 
> 
> Find out how deprived your area is compared to the rest of England
> ...


Oh no, we've got the classic statistics and source nightmare! 

Following links are probably iffy with regards to reliability, Guardian one is probably ok;









						Poverty in England: how Experian ranks where you live
					

Which places are at the biggest risk of poverty across England? See the data from credit reference agency Experian




					www.theguardian.com
				












						England’s 30 poorest towns and cities revealed
					

We take a closer look at the urban areas in England that are facing serious hardship




					www.lovemoney.com
				












						19 of 20 of areas with England's most deprived neighbourhoods are in the north
					

Blackpool was also found to contain eight of the 10 most deprived neighbourhoods in England




					inews.co.uk
				




As I stated in my post 'its a long way from ideal in Cornwall' and 'consider themselves to be doing ok' (not good/well). My reference too 'shouting a bit too loudly' is over the years and through different forms of media I get the impression Cornwall feels that it is hard done by and deserves more, complaining about second homes where some places have derelict streets . Statistics sources are a nightmare but the following is from a '.gov' site and I feel unemployment is the most reliable indicator for an area that is or soon to be deprived;

'The highest unemployment rate estimate in the UK for September to November 2019 was for the North East at 6.2%, followed by Yorkshire and The Humber, the West Midlands and London, all at 4.3%. The region with the lowest estimated unemployment rate was Northern Ireland at 2.3%. This was followed by the South West, with an unemployment rate of 2.8%. It is also worth noting that Wales had a record low unemployment level and rate at 3.0%.

The South West had the largest increase in the unemployment rate on the previous period (June to August 2019) at 0.5 percentage points, followed by the North East at 0.4 percentage points. Whilst the unemployment rates for most regions have recently been generally flat or falling, the estimate for the North East has been gently increasing.'

Cornwall has deprived neighbourhoods but areas of Uk have deprived regions. Unfortunately we have no way of quantifying whether or not Cornwall 'moans too loudly' but I guess most of these regions are a long way from Westminster so unfortunately they all need to shout pretty loudly just to be heard!!


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## in h (Aug 1, 2020)

I have never felt welcome in Cornwall. 
It's like Whitby writ large: they resent the tourists who keep their economy afloat.
They just want visitors to pay money and go away.
Whether or not people personally gain from tourism, if their local economy depends on it, driving tourists away won't do them any good.


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## Tookey (Aug 1, 2020)

oops, apologies I will shut up this is a NC500 thread


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## GeoffL (Aug 1, 2020)

in h said:


> I have never felt welcome in Cornwall.
> It's like Whitby writ large: they resent the tourists who keep their economy afloat.
> They just want visitors to pay money and go away.
> Whether or not people personally gain from tourism, if their local economy depends on it, driving tourists away won't do them any good.


'Local economy depends on tourism' is a fallacy. Locals aren't gaining as most of the money from tourism goes to outsiders. Many seasonal jobs go to outsiders, and so don't benefit locals. Essential shops (e.g. supermarkets and the high street) can and do operate just the same with or without tourism. While we might think that spending a few quid on supplies in Sainsburys contributes to the local economy, it doesn't -- the profit goes into the coffers of a national company. You are not keeping the indigenous local economy afloat.

Tourism of a few decades ago was a good thing, but today it's destroying communities, depressing local economies, and driving everything but tourism away. Many locals don't just want visitors to pay money and go away -- they want visitors not to come in the first place.

Note that this doesn't just apply to Cornwall -- I'm just using the county as an example because I know it well. A quick search of the 'net shows the same issues exist in the Highlands. Today, I drove to a local beauty spot to find nowhere to park. Of over 300 cars/vans parked over the area only about a dozen had local ('W') registrations.

That said, tourism per se is not the issue (even if objections to industry are often on the grounds that it'll spoil the area for tourism). The real problem is the removal of affordable housing from the property market. Obviously, we (motorhomers) are entirely neutral here -- but our mainly white, large vehicles are obvious and make an attractive avatar against which threatened communities can rail. Rather than trying to hit motorhomers with a congestion charge, more effect would be gained by doubling council tax on second homes (something the law allows). Unfortunately, that would be difficult in areas most likely to benefit as the majority of those eligible to vote are second home owners...
... just saying...


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## in h (Aug 1, 2020)

Yes, that's what many people think. Sorry, but it isn't true. 
The primary economic driver in that area (and in Whitby) is tourism. It is what keeps the economy afloat.
The point I was making is that even if you are not directly benefiting from tourist spend, if you live in a tourist area you are dependent on that spend.
All you are doing is demonstrating that you don't understand.


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## GeoffL (Aug 1, 2020)

in h said:


> [...]
> All you are doing is demonstrating that you don't understand.


Et tu... We must agree to disagree.


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## Tookey (Aug 1, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> 'Local economy depends on tourism' is a fallacy. Locals aren't gaining as most of the money from tourism goes to outsiders. Many seasonal jobs go to outsiders, and so don't benefit locals. Essential shops (e.g. supermarkets and the high street) can and do operate just the same with or without tourism. While we might think that spending a few quid on supplies in Sainsburys contributes to the local economy, it doesn't -- the profit goes into the coffers of a national company. You are not keeping the indigenous local economy afloat.
> 
> Tourism of a few decades ago was a good thing, but today it's destroying communities, depressing local economies, and driving everything but tourism away. Many locals don't just want visitors to pay money and go away -- they want visitors not to come in the first place.
> 
> ...


Geoff, we are completely hi jacking this NC 500 thread. If you want to copy your post and start a new thread that would be good as it's an interesting topic to discuss


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## rabW (Aug 1, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> 'Local economy depends on tourism' is a fallacy. Locals aren't gaining as most of the money from tourism goes to outsiders. Many seasonal jobs go to outsiders, and so don't benefit locals. Essential shops (e.g. supermarkets and the high street) can and do operate just the same with or without tourism. While we might think that spending a few quid on supplies in Sainsburys contributes to the local economy, it doesn't -- the profit goes into the coffers of a national company. You are not keeping the indigenous local economy afloat.
> 
> Tourism of a few decades ago was a good thing, but today it's destroying communities, depressing local economies, and driving everything but tourism away. Many locals don't just want visitors to pay money and go away -- they want visitors not to come in the first place.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more Geoff; I'm from the Highlands, it's getting difficult to catalogue the numbskull behaviour. 









						Tourists blasted for climbing on John O'Groats sign after finger-post snaps off
					

The iconic ‘Journey’s End’ sign will need repair.




					www.scotsman.com


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## GeoffL (Aug 1, 2020)

Tookey said:


> Geoff, we are completely hi jacking this NC 500 thread. If you want to copy your post and start a new thread that would be good as it's an interesting topic to discuss


Thanks for pointing that out -- it certainly wasn't my intention to hijack this thread. All I'm trying to do is put forward an alternative POV that helps explain why locals in tourist areas (including the Highlands) might have anti-motorhome tendencies. Having done that, I suspect it's time for me to take your hint and leave the rest of the thread to discussion on how to counter what I certainly perceive as an unreasonable stance on the part of Jamie Stone MP...


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## barge1914 (Aug 1, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> 'Local economy depends on tourism' is a fallacy. Locals aren't gaining as most of the money from tourism goes to outsiders. Many seasonal jobs go to outsiders, and so don't benefit locals. Essential shops (e.g. supermarkets and the high street) can and do operate just the same with or without tourism. While we might think that spending a few quid on supplies in Sainsburys contributes to the local economy, it doesn't -- the profit goes into the coffers of a national company. You are not keeping the indigenous local economy afloat.
> 
> Tourism of a few decades ago was a good thing, but today it's destroying communities, depressing local economies, and driving everything but tourism away. Many locals don't just want visitors to pay money and go away -- they want visitors not to come in the first place.
> 
> ...


The 22 staff which our local pub in a tourist area supports would somewhat disagree with some of your points, without tourists during lockdown they’ve had no work.


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## GeoffL (Aug 1, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> The 22 staff which our local pub in a tourist area supports would somewhat disagree with some of your points, without tourists during lockdown they’ve had no work.


Non-sequitur. The lockdown, not lack of tourists, closed the pubs -- even those that rely solely on local trade. That said, you're missing the point. What matters here is not cold hard facts but perception and where public perception leads to strong opinion, action on the part of authorities is likely. I suspect the reason Jamie Stone MP has got on his high horse is that his local constituents have expressed dispeasure and he's just trying to retain his seat.  He's engaged in 'placebo politics'; i.e. appearing to do something while skirting around the real issue. Unfortunately, we're a visible and relatively easy target even though we're not the real issue. The public sees a motorhome but not the queue in front of it and assumes the motorhome is responsible for holding up the traffic. They see three motorhomes in a row and we're the scourge of the Highlands but three coaches in a row (or twenty cars)?...


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## in h (Aug 1, 2020)

I can't see how it is hijacking an NC500 thread. The nub of the issue is that the tourist industry and covid-19 have drawn in a lot of tourists, putting strains on the infrastructure and getting in the way of the locals, who can't see that they depend on tourism.
This is as true and as relevant in NC500 land as it is in Cornwall or Whitby.


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## Tookey (Aug 1, 2020)

in h said:


> I can't see how it is hijacking an NC500 thread. The nub of the issue is that the tourist industry and covid-19 have drawn in a lot of tourists, putting strains on the infrastructure and getting in the way of the locals, who can't see that they depend on tourism.
> This is as true and as relevant in NC500 land as it is in Cornwall or Whitby.


Fair enough;

Did some web trawling and in they end turned to DEFRA as everything else was a bit weak. (apologies but I am unsure how to do a link to a PDF, Title is ' Tourism and Local Rural Communities' DEFRA if interested.

Summary statement on report;

The scale of economic impact of tourism in rural areas is determined by a range of factors. While a great deal of information is available at the international and national level on the economic benefits and costs of tourism, based on national and international surveys, much less information is available at the sub-national level and for rural areas. There is no definitive account in the literature of the contribution of tourism to rural economies, most notably the extent to which it generates income, employment and entrepreneurial activity, much less the extent to which this impacts on local rural economies. There are very few analyses of indirect and induced impacts of tourism on local rural economies and few linkages made to the flows of income to and from urban areas. Accurate measures of tourist expenditure in rural areas are difficult to make – it is a fragmented and complex industry - and it is not a requirement that local authorities report on tourism (i.e. tourism is not included in the recently reviewed list of 198 indicators that local authorities are required to use). It may be necessary to undertake specific tourist expenditure surveys to establish tourist spend in particular rural areas. In Annex 2 and 3 we review the available evidence and highlight where data is available at a local level and for rural areas.

But an accurate survey was also written about;

Whilst a national level visitor profile provides an overview of the issues, it does little to enable the development of an understanding of expenditure by visitor type in one rural locality as compared to another, or to the surrounding non-rural areas. We were however able to identify examples of local studies where more detailed estimates of economic impact were applied. One such example is a study in Windermere and Bowness in South Lakeland, Cumbria, as part of a broader study commissioned by the North West Development Agency to develop their understanding of rural tourism on local economies.24 ▪ It was estimated that in 2007 South Lakeland had £510.1m of tourism revenue (44.6% of the Cumbria total), 10.2m tourist days (36.2% of the Cumbria total), and 3.8m tourists. A significant proportion of this tourism reflected the broader offer of the area, alongside Lake Windermere (centred on Windermere, Bowness and Ambleside). It is further estimated that tourism spend in 2007 was associated with 8,843 full time equivalent jobs (42.2% of the Cumbria total) and with this translating to a total of 15,210 jobs supported by tourism. As in other parts of the UK, tourism in the area supports a relatively large number of part time employment opportunities. ▪ In terms of visitor profile in 2007, it was estimated that around 17.3% used serviced accommodation, 10.4% non services accommodation, and with 67.4% representing day visitors, and the small balance as tourists staying with friends and relations. In the context of economic impact linked to tourism consumption the proportion of staying visitors is a key factor. Moreover, higher numbers of day visitors can be connected to higher environmental costs linked to tourism consumption: for example, a higher proportion of total trip time in likely to be spent travelling, with implications for congestion on often limited road space.

Which suggests tourism is vital to some UK local economies but it is the long stay tourist and not the day visitor which is key to the community benefiting, which seems to be confirmed by the fact that Blackpool economically is on its arse but gets thousands of tourists...........but the wrong kind.


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## garydavidson83 (Aug 2, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I suppose he, and they, would be a lot happier if we rebuilt Hadrian's Wall and prevented anyone in a motorised vehicle from crossing the border into Scotland at all.


You might actually be onto something there. All for English independence, would solve many issues but if little England gets too much we are always willing to accept refugees up here in Scotland.



runnach said:


> What about the highlanders venturing south adding to the congestion in towns and cities, lets charge them for the privilege of entering civilisation.


I think your own words sum up your post well enough "The mans a prat."


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## Tookey (Aug 2, 2020)

So with regards to our community I don't believe the expression 'freeloader' is justified but neither to we have any significant impact on an economy unless the stay is an extended one. Looking at the figures involved I suggest that basically our community has a negligible effect as the numbers involved are so small.

So surprisingly this does bring us back to the NC500 as it seems that in reality the number of tourers involved, that we are frequently moving, it passes through so many local economies and that on the whole we are self contained means our support of local economies does exist but is very limited. Quite simply I suggest that whether we exist or not simply makes no difference so we should not be targeted or particularly embraced. 

Just left alone would the most appropriate action for all parties and 2020 and 2021 should simply be written off as extenuating circumstances


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## Pudsey Bear (Aug 2, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> That old cliche - can't have your cake and eat it?


You can if you bake two


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## barge1914 (Aug 2, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Non-sequitur. The lockdown, not lack of tourists, closed the pubs -- even those that rely solely on local trade. That said, you're missing the point. What matters here is not cold hard facts but perception and where public perception leads to strong opinion, action on the part of authorities is likely. I suspect the reason Jamie Stone MP has got on his high horse is that his local constituents have expressed dispeasure and he's just trying to retain his seat.  He's engaged in 'placebo politics'; i.e. appearing to do something while skirting around the real issue. Unfortunately, we're a visible and relatively easy target even though we're not the real issue. The public sees a motorhome but not the queue in front of it and assumes the motorhome is responsible for holding up the traffic. They see three motorhomes in a row and we're the scourge of the Highlands but three coaches in a row (or twenty cars)?...


Foot and mouth had the same effect. The locals were still here, just not the Tourists, all our pubs closed and all the B&Bs in our village. Only one pub reopened, and that because the villagers bought it. However I agree entirely with you on perceptions...two different subjects.


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## Holmzie1 (Aug 2, 2020)

runnach said:


> Ho-Hum, what about the heavy artics supplying goods to the area, what about the VERY heavy HGV's transporting logs from forestry land, what about the bins wagons, oh no, just MH's and camper vans.
> 
> What about the highlanders venturing south adding to the congestion in towns and cities, lets charge them for the privilege of entering civilisation.
> 
> ...


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## Holmzie1 (Aug 2, 2020)

This and some of the other posts has just made my mind up not to join as a full member!
Not all motorhomers are responsible and believing they are is just naive. Just like some of them are plain stupid and ignorant. 
I witnessed a motorhome owner dumping his toilet cassette just beside the Forth Road Bridge!  I couldn’t get his number as it was on the motorway.
Because one MP has an opinion turning it into a them and us isn’t helpful.....


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## Jude (Aug 2, 2020)

2cv said:


> The local Lib Dem MP does not appear to like us. Link


Is it any wonder, the N500 has drawn many bad campers.  Scotland was much more attractive before the N500 was widely popularized. 
My husband attending his boat, found the shielded side was being used as a toilet. Lots of excretement.  He had to use a No 7 shovel to remove it before he could climb into his boat. Just because someone was too lazy to walk to camp toilets.  Now thats filth.


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## witzend (Aug 2, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Then it would be just Cornish residents plus all those many holiday properties that would stand empty with no occupants contributing to the daily local economy.



Until our village was bought up by the English for holiday homes we had a garage, 2 shops, a Post Office + a busy Pub Now the only one left is the pub which only opens 3 nights in the winter so what daily economy are you talking about



mariesnowgoose said:


> Land's End has charged an entry fee for donkey's years. Are you maybe talking 18th century?!



No free until 1987 when bought by Peter Desavery


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## in h (Aug 2, 2020)

Tookey said:


> Which suggests tourism is vital to some UK local economies but it is the long stay tourist and not the day visitor which is key to the community benefiting, which seems to be confirmed by the fact that Blackpool economically is on its arse but gets thousands of tourists...........but the wrong kind.


Apologies for talking about a place that is not on the NC500, but the problems are the same, and it is a good microcosym of the issue.
The classic example of this is Whitby. The VAST majority of their visitors are day trippers from Teesside.
The shops cafes and chip shops in the down reflect that. The attractions and facilities are geared towards people who are only there for the day.
The vast majority of the problems with rubbish dumping and poo is from these day trippers, who bring their own packed lunches (and closing the toilets where visitors are still around doesn't help).
Motorhomes didn't cause these problems: indeed, they alleviated them by stopping quite so many day trippers finding places to park.
Motorhomes were the target of media campaigns because B&B owners were frustrated by so many vacancies, despite crowds outside.
I know this was the cause: the editor of the local paper was a friend of a friend. The local paper was the prime driver of this hate campaign.
Motorhomes tend to stay a few days, so the town was actually biting the hand that feeds it. Driving them away has not made things better - though perhaps staycations will do.


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## in h (Aug 2, 2020)

witzend said:


> Until our village was bought up by the English for holiday homes we had a garage, 2 shops, a Post Office + a busy Pub Now the only one left is the pub which only opens 3 nights in the winter ...


Until your village was bought up by the English for holiday homes, our village had three pubs, a post office and two shops. Now we just have one community shop, no pub, no post office.
Bloody English!


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## GeoffL (Aug 2, 2020)

witzend said:


> [Of Lands End] No free until 1987 when bought by Peter Desavery


In the mid-1990s, Lands End was bought by the same guy (Cairns Boston) who then owned John O'Groats. The Lands End & John O'Groats Company Ltd. is Liverpool based at the same address as Heritage GB, who are now the public face of these and many other tourist attractions both in Cornwall and the Highlands. So, like much of tourism money, the profits from operating these attractions at both ends of the country go straight to England.


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## kyran (Aug 2, 2020)

lands end was still free last time I was there .... PARKING on the other hand is stupidly expensive. I park in the national trust (free) and walk there

kyran


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## jagmanx (Aug 2, 2020)

Vehicles towed at Snowdonia beauty spot for parking 'dangerously'
					

It followed chaotic scenes near Snowdon when 180 penalty fines were issued over a weekend.



					www.bbc.com


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## Val54 (Aug 2, 2020)

jagmanx said:


> Vehicles towed at Snowdonia beauty spot for parking 'dangerously'
> 
> 
> It followed chaotic scenes near Snowdon when 180 penalty fines were issued over a weekend.
> ...


If you look closely, that's a motorhome being towed away, not a caravan as reported by the Beeb ..........


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## Pedalman (Aug 2, 2020)

2cv said:


> The local Lib Dem MP does not appear to like us. Link


We should all write to this MP and explain that campervaners & Motorhomers do not destroy things .   His address is ......Twat ,Scotland,    that will definitely get to his letterbox.


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## RichardP (Aug 2, 2020)

__





						North 500 – Permitted Campervan Travel Times (COVID Reopening)
					

Here's the permitted travel times for Campervans and Caravenettes to be travelling on the Northern 500 with COVID restrictions being lifted this Friday.




					dailygael.com
				



I found this on Facebook. Is it genuine!


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## Pedalman (Aug 2, 2020)

runnach said:


> Gary, you joined a year ago as a free member and this is your first post, do you own a camper or MH?


That MP doesn't happen to live here does he ?   https://www.google.com/search?q=Twa...ECAwQAw&biw=1240&bih=806#imgrc=YRozekZIwFfVfM


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## GeoffL (Aug 2, 2020)

Pedalman said:


> We should all write to this MP and explain that campervaners & Motorhomers do not destroy things .   His address is ......Twat ,Scotland,    that will definitely get to his letterbox.


For anyone wishing to write to this MP (especially his constituents), contact details are on his website: https://www.jamiestone.org.uk/contact


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## mickymost (Aug 2, 2020)

Jude said:


> Is it any wonder, the N500 has drawn many bad campers.  Scotland was much more attractive before the N500 was widely popularized.
> My husband attending his boat, found the shielded side was being used as a toilet. Lots of excretement.  He had to use a No 7 shovel to remove it before he could climb into his boat. Just because someone was too lazy to walk to camp toilets.  Now thats filth.




Sorry to hear about your Husbands Boat But I have to ask what is a NO 7 shovel? Does it leave a perfumed Aroma behind maybe?


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## jagmanx (Aug 2, 2020)

So most MP's get issued with a no 8 shovel !


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## Tookey (Aug 2, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Sorry to hear about your Husbands Boat But I have to ask what is a NO 7 shovel? Does it leave a perfumed Aroma behind maybe?


Looks like a 'Black Diamond' thing.......is all I can suggest 









						Black Diamond Deploy 7 Shovel
					

The Black Diamond Deploy 7 Shovel is a durable, rapid-deployment snow shovel that is ideal for daily use in the backcountry.




					rockrun.com
				












						MARKED FOR DELETION Black Diamond Evac 7 Shovel
					

MARKED FOR DELETION Black Diamond Evac 7 Shovel: Compact and durable two-way use shovel. 794g.



					www.facewest.co.uk


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## Timberjack69 (Aug 2, 2020)

The roads on the NC500 are a disgrace, not because of the traffic but because they have had very little spent on them from the start. They should be capable of handling freight trucks for commerce and the development of Scotland.  Scotland will never be developed and create jobs in the highlands without commerce and the roads are strangling that. To blame campers is a farce and diverting the attention away from the inferior quality of the roads


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## Boris7 (Aug 2, 2020)

I'm a paid member on here, but not a poster.

I'm Irish, but bought up in England where I still live, but also have a second home in Kinloch Ranch, Perthshire.

I bought my first Motor Home in February as we wanted to continue our trip around the UK which had taken us from Kings Lynn to Runcorn in a Sports car and felt the next section would be best suited to a motor home.

So I feel anyone wanting a dig has all the ammo they can get.

So we set out from Runcorn but hit an issue when covid struck and stopped in March at Carlisle, we then returned home and locked down until 14th July when we set off for Carlisle again and on the 15th entered Scotland to continue our around the UK trip, this included Islay, Mull, Syke, and Orkney etc

Part of our journey joined us into the NC500, it wasn't our reason for being there, just a coincidence.

At Durness, we were surprised to see so many camper vans, motorhomes, bikes and sports cars all of which I love.

We spent a magical night by Loch Eriboll, and moved on the next day.

Now the NC500 from there follows the A836 to Thurso, but we were following the coast, had done so since Kings Lynn and intended to do so all the way back there. This means we visit every single harbour etc and only move away from the edge when we have no choice.

BUT We came around a bend on the road to Talmine and this just went wrong, we had just passed a passing place with a clear road ahead when an Audi coming the other way simply accelerated past a passing place and pulled into the middle of the road so we could not go on, he was very offensive and kept referring to the NC500, I obviously thought what a plank and we exchanged views...... etc.....

At Talmine, I couldn't believe the number of camper vans (I'm not anti camper vans, just observing how many there were)

This happened again at Skullomie, but a mix of motorhomes, camper vans and caravans etc.

It was worse at Skerray, but Skerray bay was an utter disgrace, I was ashamed to feel part of this community. We had issues getting to the harbour because Motor Homes, camper vans, caravans etc were simply blocking the road. I had to get out and sort a route through as I needed to find space to turn back.

But the real issue was the mess, the smell and the attitude of the people camping in places they really should not have been, its no wonder that locals aint happy.

Aggression and disrespect for others and for the environment is NOT what wild camping is about, and these people should be ashamed.

NOW THAT SAID, 

Back to the A836 and apart from an idiot with a caravan who couldn't get above 30 mph and didn't know he was straddling the white line and blocking traffic I didn't see any major issues other than rubbish in lay-bys etc which happens everywhere because people are selfish, we spent 2 nights at Dunnet bay CAMC site so I could have time off, cook a Sunday lunch and have a beer (or 12) and moved on.

It was obvious that too many travellers were in the area, but thats a covid lock down issue, not a NC500 issue as far as I could tell, but still respect please.

At Munlochy we stopped the night in a car park overlooking the loch parked next to a German camper and some other mainly hired motorhomes, some locals beeped their horns as they passed by but no other issues.

The NC500 is NOT the issue here, it seems to be people either need to respect the local area, or leave.

The simple fact is a camper van without facilities is NOT a suitable option in an area with no facilities for an extended stay, the guy I spoke to in a VW transporter at Skerry Bay, stood on the road with beer expressing his right to stay there for a week with no on board toilet and no public toilets available just isn't doing our image any favours.


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 3, 2020)

Boris7 said:


> The simple fact is a camper van without facilities is NOT a suitable option in an area with no facilities for an extended stay, the guy I spoke to in a VW transporter at Skerry Bay, stood on the road with beer expressing his right to stay there for a week with no on board toilet and no public toilets available just isn't doing our image any favours.


Did this chap tell you he hasn't got any on board facilities or did you have a look inside? Please do not make assumptions about VW's as there are so many variations. We have owned a T5 Leisuredrive conversion (see my avatar) since Jan 2015, which can sleep 4. We bought it purely for visiting Scotland having rented cottages for 3 years prior. We have everything you do in your motorhome except a shower and fixed toilet. We have a gas double hob, oven and grill. A sink with pumped water with 45 litre tank (a grey water tank inbuilt) and a fridge which runs on gas, hook-up or engine when travelling and we have a porta potti. If you look at it when loaded ready for travel; apart from obviously more windows, it looks like a commercial van with bike rack. We have generally spent 2 weeks in May and 2 weeks in September for last 5 years touring Scotland and the Isles. We generally visit small quiet campsites or 'Wild Spots' (for the odd night) that motorhomes simply cannot reach due to size - the T5 is afterall less than 5m long, 2.0m high and car width. We always buy our general groceries etc local to help support their economy and camper fits into normal size parking bays. There are some T5 conversions that do actually have a cassette toilet like this one https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...g-location=at_motorhomes&page=22&modal=photos (and some a fixed shower) also they are excellent on fuel as when loaded we get on average high 30's low 40's mpg - also no speed restrictions like vans. We are now considering upgrading to a full VW California which is the highest value retaining general production vehicle on the road currently!! Several at the moment are selling for more than they were new - they are that good, drive like a car and can be used as a daily driver. These come loaded with kit. Electric roof, 2 large beds which are very quick to set-up, double leisure batteries, hot and cold water with large tanks for fresh and waste on board. Table in side door and chairs in tailgate. Some now come with shower connections at the back with an awning that quickly fits rear tailgate to make fully enclosed pumped hot water shower even with shower tray. SO please please don't say these vehicles are not suitable; I would suggest they are more suitable than a motorhome TBH and also being 3000kg are not heavy!!!!

Oh and BTW since 1st July it has been travelling down the West Atlantic Way in Ireland with my son and his Irish partner. In that time they've only stopped at campsite for 2 nights; the rest they used Wild Spots using local facilities as and when needed. No issues and locals have all been fine considering the Irish are still unable to do international travel.


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## mickymost (Aug 3, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> Did this chap tell you he hasn't got any on board facilities or did you have a look inside? Please do not make assumptions about VW's as there are so many variations. We have owned a T5 Leisuredrive conversion (see my avatar) since Jan 2015, which can sleep 4. We bought it purely for visiting Scotland having rented cottages for 3 years prior. We have everything you do in your motorhome except a shower and fixed toilet. We have a gas double hob, oven and grill. A sink with pumped water with 45 litre tank (a grey water tank inbuilt) and a fridge which runs on gas, hook-up or engine when travelling and we have a porta potti. If you look at it when loaded ready for travel; apart from obviously more windows, it looks like a commercial van with bike rack. We have generally spent 2 weeks in May and 2 weeks in September for last 5 years touring Scotland and the Isles. We generally visit small quiet campsites or 'Wild Spots' (for the odd night) that motorhomes simply cannot reach due to size - the T5 is afterall less than 5m long, 2.0m high and car width. We always buy our general groceries etc local to help support their economy and camper fits into normal size parking bays. There are some T5 conversions that do actually have a cassette toilet like this one https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...g-location=at_motorhomes&page=22&modal=photos (and some a fixed shower) also they are excellent on fuel as when loaded we get on average high 30's low 40's mpg - also no speed restrictions like vans. We are now considering upgrading to a full VW California which is the highest value retaining general production vehicle on the road currently!! Several at the moment are selling for more than they were new - they are that good, drive like a car and can be used as a daily driver. These come loaded with kit. Electric roof, 2 large beds which are very quick to set-up, double leisure batteries, hot and cold water with large tanks for fresh and waste on board. Table in side door and chairs in tailgate. Some now come with shower connections at the back with an awning that quickly fits rear tailgate to make fully enclosed pumped hot water shower even with shower tray. SO please please don't say these vehicles are not suitable; I would suggest they are more suitable than a motorhome TBH and also being 3000kg are not heavy!!!!
> 
> Oh and BTW since 1st July it has been travelling down the West Atlantic Way in Ireland with my son and his Irish partner. In that time they've only stopped at campsite for 2 nights; the rest they used Wild Spots using local facilities as and when needed. No issues and locals have all been fine considering the Irish are still unable to do international travel.




Boris has touched a nerve with you on his post.But you are right just because your van is small doesn't mean to say you don't carry a small toilet and have other similar facilities to the bigger Motorhomes.And you only are going around in an economical small footprint with better mpg so hats off to you and other responsible  Vw owners.


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## davep10000 (Aug 3, 2020)

I stayed in a forest car park a couple of weeks back and a large m/h had taken up a complete bay of 4 car spaces by parking lengthways.
It rightly Got a few dirty looks from the dog walkers who arrived early morning and had to park on one of the other few bays there were.
We will only ever use one bay (only 4.7 m long) and usually leave before 8am.


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## linkshouse (Aug 3, 2020)

AndyR said:


> This wont be popular, but ......
> 
> I agree with him in principle. I come from that part of the world and have travelled the roads of the far North of Scotland, including those that make up the NC500, by motorhome for many years at all times of year. The volume of traffic has increased exponentially over recent years, putting extra and, in many cases, unexpected pressure on the local infrastructure.
> 
> ...



Hmm, I can see where you're coming from but in truth I don't really want to be forced into using Aire style stopovers for every night any more than I want to use campsites for every night. I do use campsites every few days and would probably use Aires the same but really prefer the peace and quiet of remote spots with no-one else (including other campervans/motorhome) anywhere near us.

Crucially, whatever solution is presented it will have no effect on the group mentioned in your post (highlighted above).

Phill


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## GeoffL (Aug 3, 2020)

linkshouse said:


> Hmm, I can see where you're coming from but in truth I don't really want to be forced into using Aire style stopovers for every night any more than I want to use campsites for every night. I do use campsites every few days and would probably use Aires the same but really prefer the peace and quiet of remote spots with no-one else (including other campervans/motorhome) anywhere near us.


I'd be very happy to pay a reasonable fee to take on fresh water and dispose of trash, grey and black waste at official 'leisure vehicle service points'. It can't be beyond the wit of man to build service points and, as they won't be stopovers, they won't be subjected to any anti-caravan planning legislation. I suspect that, given the convenience they would present, most would prefer to use proper service points than skulk around the nearest public loos etc. I know that I'd be happy to pay £5-£10 a time to pump and dump.



linkshouse said:


> Crucially, whatever solution is presented it will have no effect on the group mentioned in your post [the thoughless, inconsiderate minority].


I agree. However, with a reasonable network of service points available there'll be a much stronger case with which to take those miscreants to task IMO.


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 3, 2020)

Seems a good idea in principle but in this country; speaking as a professional in architecture, we have such a woolly system it would take ages to get one approved. Land ownership being a big issue, then the local authority planning committee (it would have to go before them) not understanding what Aires are and how they implement them service wise to ensure - dare I say it, they don't become simply traveller sites! I know there are the odd one or two popping up here and there but these still have toilets - I don't know of one in UK which is simply a service point and driver break stop. It's entrance would also need to be designed to ensure it didn't end up as a lorry park!


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## GeoffL (Aug 3, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> Seems a good idea in principle but in this country; speaking as a professional in architecture, we have such a woolly system it would take ages to get one approved. Land ownership being a big issue, then the local authority planning committee (it would have to go before them) not understanding what Aires are and how they implement them service wise to ensure - dare I say it, they don't become simply traveller sites! I know there are the odd one or two popping up here and there but these still have toilets - I don't know of one in UK which is simply a service point and driver break stop. It's entrance would also need to be designed to ensure it didn't end up as a lorry park!


All that's needed for a leisure vehicle service point is (ideally) a drive-over grey dumping point, a CDP, fresh and rinse water taps and a bin/skip. Positioning these at filling stations or at the entrance to a park and Imposing a 1-hour max stay and only while pumping and dumping might help prevent it becoming a lorry park. Also, I hope that some campsites might see the opportunity to provide this service for a fee. However, I take your point regarding planning committees, all of which probably include a NIMBY or two...


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 3, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> . Also, I hope that some campsites might see the opportunity to provide this service for a fee.


We've been to some that already do this - but you also see a lot saying 'Only for the use of people booked on the site'.


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## caledonia (Aug 3, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> Did this chap tell you he hasn't got any on board facilities or did you have a look inside? Please do not make assumptions about VW's as there are so many variations. We have owned a T5 Leisuredrive conversion (see my avatar) since Jan 2015, which can sleep 4. We bought it purely for visiting Scotland having rented cottages for 3 years prior. We have everything you do in your motorhome except a shower and fixed toilet. We have a gas double hob, oven and grill. A sink with pumped water with 45 litre tank (a grey water tank inbuilt) and a fridge which runs on gas, hook-up or engine when travelling and we have a porta potti. If you look at it when loaded ready for travel; apart from obviously more windows, it looks like a commercial van with bike rack. We have generally spent 2 weeks in May and 2 weeks in September for last 5 years touring Scotland and the Isles. We generally visit small quiet campsites or 'Wild Spots' (for the odd night) that motorhomes simply cannot reach due to size - the T5 is afterall less than 5m long, 2.0m high and car width. We always buy our general groceries etc local to help support their economy and camper fits into normal size parking bays. There are some T5 conversions that do actually have a cassette toilet like this one https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...g-location=at_motorhomes&page=22&modal=photos (and some a fixed shower) also they are excellent on fuel as when loaded we get on average high 30's low 40's mpg - also no speed restrictions like vans. We are now considering upgrading to a full VW California which is the highest value retaining general production vehicle on the road currently!! Several at the moment are selling for more than they were new - they are that good, drive like a car and can be used as a daily driver. These come loaded with kit. Electric roof, 2 large beds which are very quick to set-up, double leisure batteries, hot and cold water with large tanks for fresh and waste on board. Table in side door and chairs in tailgate. Some now come with shower connections at the back with an awning that quickly fits rear tailgate to make fully enclosed pumped hot water shower even with shower tray. SO please please don't say these vehicles are not suitable; I would suggest they are more suitable than a motorhome TBH and also being 3000kg are not heavy!!!!
> 
> Oh and BTW since 1st July it has been travelling down the West Atlantic Way in Ireland with my son and his Irish partner. In that time they've only stopped at campsite for 2 nights; the rest they used Wild Spots using local facilities as and when needed. No issues and locals have all been fine considering the Irish are still unable to do international travel.


I couldn’t agree more  I also have a T5 and have owned over 8years and have been all over Scotland and it’s islands. I also think it’s far better suited to wildcamping than a big white motorhome for lots of reasons.


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## Debroos (Aug 3, 2020)

caledonia said:


> I couldn’t agree more  I also have a T5 and have owned over 8years and have been all over Scotland and it’s islands. I also think it’s far better suited to wildcamping than a big white motorhome for lots of reasons.



Couldn't agree more. We also have a t5 and have a toilet on board. No shower but that is our problem and no one elses!


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## mickymost (Aug 3, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Couldn't agree more. We also have a t5 and have a toilet on board. No shower but that is our problem and no one elses!




Exactly you can stink as much as you want to your choice  (joking)


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## Debroos (Aug 3, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Exactly you can stink as much as you want to your choice  (joking)


Don't tell the press. It will be all over the front pages!!


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## mickymost (Aug 3, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Don't tell the press. It will be all over the front pages!!




Especially if that Daily Fail gets to hear about this. The Front Page headline 

 From Karen the reporter 


"Today on the Nc500 A Vw campervan leaves a trail of stink in its wake.Everyone knows people in Campervans dont wash or have the facilities to do so.Local residents advised to mask up.Oh thats great they can reuse their #covid19 infected Pandemic masks to combat the problem ,Two Birds with one stone and all that.Then continues,Must get these campervans banned" 

The Daily Fail will sell like hot cakes.


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 3, 2020)

How do you know we don't go 'wild' swimming for a wash............half the showers in motorhomes are tiny anyway lol


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## mickymost (Aug 3, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> How do you know we don't go 'wild' swimming for a wash............half the showers in motorhomes are tiny anyway lol




Im not saying you dont wash Its Karen the fictional Daily Fail reporter in her "article"


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## Boris7 (Aug 24, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> Did this chap tell you he hasn't got any on board facilities or did you have a look inside? Please do not make assumptions about VW's as there are so many variations. We have owned a T5 Leisuredrive conversion (see my avatar) since Jan 2015, which can sleep 4. We bought it purely for visiting Scotland having rented cottages for 3 years prior. We have everything you do in your motorhome except a shower and fixed toilet. We have a gas double hob, oven and grill. A sink with pumped water with 45 litre tank (a grey water tank inbuilt) and a fridge which runs on gas, hook-up or engine when travelling and we have a porta potti. If you look at it when loaded ready for travel; apart from obviously more windows, it looks like a commercial van with bike rack. We have generally spent 2 weeks in May and 2 weeks in September for last 5 years touring Scotland and the Isles. We generally visit small quiet campsites or 'Wild Spots' (for the odd night) that motorhomes simply cannot reach due to size - the T5 is afterall less than 5m long, 2.0m high and car width. We always buy our general groceries etc local to help support their economy and camper fits into normal size parking bays. There are some T5 conversions that do actually have a cassette toilet like this one https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classi...g-location=at_motorhomes&page=22&modal=photos (and some a fixed shower) also they are excellent on fuel as when loaded we get on average high 30's low 40's mpg - also no speed restrictions like vans. We are now considering upgrading to a full VW California which is the highest value retaining general production vehicle on the road currently!! Several at the moment are selling for more than they were new - they are that good, drive like a car and can be used as a daily driver. These come loaded with kit. Electric roof, 2 large beds which are very quick to set-up, double leisure batteries, hot and cold water with large tanks for fresh and waste on board. Table in side door and chairs in tailgate. Some now come with shower connections at the back with an awning that quickly fits rear tailgate to make fully enclosed pumped hot water shower even with shower tray. SO please please don't say these vehicles are not suitable; I would suggest they are more suitable than a motorhome TBH and also being 3000kg are not heavy!!!!
> 
> Oh and BTW since 1st July it has been travelling down the West Atlantic Way in Ireland with my son and his Irish partner. In that time they've only stopped at campsite for 2 nights; the rest they used Wild Spots using local facilities as and when needed. No issues and locals have all been fine considering the Irish are still unable to do international travel.



I think you mis-understood, I'm wasn't knocking T5's or even another van conversion, 

"I'm not anti camper vans, just observing how many there were" 

"But the real issue was the mess, the smell and the attitude of the people camping in places they really should not have been", unimportant what they were driving

and no I didn't look in his van, but without going into too much detail if he had a toilet his partner really should have been using it.

And the ample evidence of general waste as well as human waste strongly suggests that if these vans have toilets then they should use them, rather than squat on the verge, leave black bin bags in the open and stand in the road drinking beer.

Out of interest I don't  give much of a dam about where you buy your groceries or how many miles you get to the gallon, sounds like small man syndrome to me


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## linkshouse (Aug 25, 2020)

Boris7 said:


> I think you mis-understood, I'm wasn't knocking T5's or even another van conversion,
> 
> "I'm not anti camper vans, just observing how many there were"
> 
> ...


Let's be clear, neither campervans nor motorhomes, or for that matter tents, leave a mess at the side of the road. People leave the mess.

I'm afraid the sort of people that leave this rubbish, and worse, at the side of the road would do so whatever they were using to sleep in.

To paraphrase a frequent dog owner quotation "there's no such thing as a bad campervan/motorhome, just bad campervan/motorhome owners".

Edit: Corrected numerous typos


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 25, 2020)

No wild camping allowed except those in a T5, that`s go down well


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 25, 2020)

Being in a " big white motorhome " we `d better stick to the sites for our little tour up there in a couple of weeks then we don`t upset members on here


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## Debroos (Aug 25, 2020)

Boris7 said:


> I think you mis-understood, I'm wasn't knocking T5's or even another van conversion,
> 
> "I'm not anti camper vans, just observing how many there were"
> 
> ...



Actually where you buy your groceries is important. If you bring everything with you and put nothing into the local economy then no wonder we become unwelcome. This applies equally to us, holiday cottages and second homes.


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 25, 2020)

Boris7 said:


> I think you mis-understood, I'm wasn't knocking T5's or even another van conversion,
> 
> Out of interest I don't  give much of a dam about where you buy your groceries or how many miles you get to the gallon, sounds like small man syndrome to me


Fair enough but please don't start that small man syndrome!!! You have no idea how tall I am. I like the idea that I can go anywhere in my T5 that a car can including into cities and even park in multi storey car parks. I'm considering selling my Nissan X Trail and this camper and buying a full california (you know - the highest value retaining general production vehicle on the roads) and using that as my daily work drive - I could not use a motorhome for that purpose and doubt any insurance company would cover me for business in one. But small man syndrome - I find that quite funny


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## Fisherman (Aug 25, 2020)

linkshouse said:


> Let's be clear, neither campervans nor motorhomes, or for that matter tents, leave a mess at the side of the road. People leave the mess.
> 
> I'm afraid the sort of people that leave this rubbish, and worse, at the side of the road would do so whatever they were using to sleep in.
> 
> ...



Nail on head linkhouse spot on.
I doesn’t matter if you do the NC 500 in a large Motorhome, a camper van, or a tent. Because none of them can leave mess and be inconsiderate towards others whilst out and about. It’s the occupants that are the problem. My mate has a T5 with no toilet facilities. Now I have never asked him what him and his wife do when nature calls. But I am 100% certain that they don’t leave human waste behind them. My reason for saying that is both he and his wife are lovers of Scotland and it’s unique environment. They have been all of their adult lives, that’s one of the things that brought them together.
You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink, and old one but none the less very true.
To me this all comes down to common sense and forward planning.
The thought of doing the NC 500 or heading to Skye in the summer months has as much appeal as a visit to the dentist to have a moler removed without anaesthetic.
I would much rather do either in early spring or late autumn, or weather permitting in winter. It takes a certain type of person to think that they can do the NC 500 with no thought about human and general waste whatsoever. These types are what create the problems, not the vans they travel in, or the tents they pitch.

As for aires and better provisions well this brings in the other side of the coin.
Generally speaking I am not a believer in sudden need of aires, just a change in attitude towards us by those who run our councils and our respective governments.
What kind of idiot highlights something like the NC 500 with its totally inadequate roads, lack of basic human provisions, and at times intolerant locals, then wonders why it has all gone so wrong. Scotland right now is littered with such problems through improper planning and lack of contingent thinking towards them. I can think of no other country that has made such a mess of things than we have. if we want people to come up here and enjoy their visit we need to provide some facilities. Take the road tariff equivalent scheme for out ferries. Now islands like Mull are inundated with cars and other vehicles that their roads simply cannot handle in summer months. And guess who gets most of the blame, yep us even though we make up less than 5% of the visitors.
We should also warn people of these current deficiencies, whilst making plans to rectify them. Also try to encourage them to visit at other times if possible.


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## Veloman (Aug 25, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Couldn't agree more. We also have a t5 and have a toilet on board. No shower but that is our problem and no one elses!



Well, I have had a T4 for the last 19 years , have spent over 1300 nights in it, mostly on Aires or wildcamping and have to say it is remarkable what can be done with a small bowl of warm water and a flannel!

I would also add how saddened I am to read this and many other threads on the problems that exist in Scotland and particularly the west coast.  Having spent many holidays there with my parents in their caravan in the late 50's and 60's in the days of the Highlands and Islands mobile film units and when just getting from Fort William to McDonalds campsite at Back of Keppoch near Arisaig was a nerve racking days drive for my father I will not return and spoil my memories.  No doubt the scenery remains the same but it seems everything else has.


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## Fisherman (Aug 25, 2020)

Veloman said:


> Well, I have had a T4 for the last 19 years , have spent over 1300 nights in it, mostly on Aires or wildcamping and have to say it is remarkable what can be done with a small bowl of warm water and a flannel!
> 
> I would also add how saddened I am to read this and many other threads on the problems that exist in Scotland and particularly the west coast.  Having spent many holidays there with my parents in their caravan in the late 50's and 60's in the days of the Highlands and Islands mobile film units and when just getting from Fort William to McDonalds campsite at Back of Keppoch near Arisaig was a nerve racking days drive for my father I will not return and spoil my memories.  No doubt the scenery remains the same but it seems everything else has.



Veloman, get yourself back up here ASAP. Scotland will always retain its natural beauty no matter what we do to try and destroy it. Once you are parked up in a beautiful spot with your journey behind you it will still retain its scenery, it’s wildlife, and it’s friendly people. I have met only a few idiots up there, the vast majority are folk just like yourself who appreciate, absorb, and value their natural surrounds. So please come up here, use your experience and your common sense to have a great experience, as we do.


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## peter palance (Aug 25, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Oh no not another moaner jumping on the recent bandwagon having a dig at responsible motorhomers.I agree with another reply on here .Its the heavy good vehicles breaking up the Roads (not having a go a you Mr Laird) Especially the logging wagons who I have had constant experience battling with when touring Scotland..They dont give way,they dont stop and come straight at you down the single track fragile roads.This MP should be aware of this if he lives in Scotland Highlands and grew up there.And again I feel its not the Motorhomes leaving faeces and rubbish etc on the side of these roads.Its tent campers but the worst one responsible will be the Day Trippers in cars WITH NO facilities i/e an onboard Toilet.Who is banning Daytrippers nobody.The NC500 has brought great much needed income to the area and its not just Motorhomers and Campervans it has attracted.This MP Is a complete idiot in my book.


but what about the shops and cafe-s all need money .oh keeping there trap shut, no they dont need us, ha ha ha, it starts,give me money that's what i want,ok.pj.


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## mickymost (Aug 25, 2020)

trustmetours said:


> Our son has done this, he bought a 62 plate T5 LWB conversion that he uses as the family vehicle for day to day use and his 'holiday home'. With the van having no shower or loo and they have two young daughters and a 7month old son they are pretty much restricted to campsites but that really suits them so it a great compromise.




Does your sons 62 plate LWB camper have an Elevating Roof?


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## mickymost (Aug 25, 2020)

trustmetours said:


> Nail on the head




Yes definately Fisherman has got it spot on


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## mickymost (Aug 25, 2020)

peter palance said:


> but what about the shops and cafe-s all need money .oh keeping there trap shut, no they dont need us, ha ha ha, it starts,give me money that's what i want,ok.pj.




pj.
Some Motorhomers/Campervan owners spend in the local shops (we do) some dont. Some Car owners spend in the shops and some dont.It is what it is.


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## Debroos (Aug 25, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Veloman, get yourself back up here ASAP. Scotland will always retain its natural beauty no matter what we do to try and destroy it. Once you are parked up in a beautiful spot with your journey behind you it will still retain its scenery, it’s wildlife, and it’s friendly people. I have met only a few idiots up there, the vast majority are folk just like yourself who appreciate, absorb, and value their natural surrounds. So please come up here, use your experience and your common sense to have a great experience, as we do.



Could you please find a way to shorten the journey from Cornwall. Perhaps by joining the two together and leaving the in between bit out...oh, but keeping our weather, I would be happy to share that with you in return.
Yes, I am going stir crazy down here and more than a little mad!


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## mickymost (Aug 25, 2020)

trustmetours said:


> It does indeed although he needs to but the relevant boards to be able to sleep up there.




He needs two boards to sleep up there. Is that what you mean?


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## Fisherman (Aug 25, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Could you please find a way to shorten the journey from Cornwall. Perhaps by joining the two together and leaving the in between bit out...oh, but keeping our weather, I would be happy to share that with you in return.
> Yes, I am going stir crazy down here and more than a little mad!



Yes no probs, just move up here


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## Deleted member 47550 (Aug 25, 2020)

trustmetours said:


> It does indeed although he needs to but the relevant boards to be able to sleep up there.


HA ha - we do that when only the 2 of us we remove the bed (about 30 small screws along the hinge - ours is side lift) as gives a little more headroom. 

We would never go in the summer months - always early May and mid-late September - hoping to go up on 14th Sept if the van is back from Ireland!!!!! and in one piece! Always been fully respectful of the environment and locals.


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## Tookey (Aug 25, 2020)

Debroos said:


> Could you please find a way to shorten the journey from Cornwall. Perhaps by joining the two together and leaving the in between bit out...oh, but keeping our weather, I would be happy to share that with you in return.
> Yes, I am going stir crazy down here and more than a little mad!


Bristol 2 Glasgow is very cheap with easyjet, maybe a van swap with one of our Scottish members would benefit both parties.


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## mickymost (Aug 25, 2020)

trustmetours said:


> Thats what he's been told by the chap he bought it from, not cheap tho!




Any way maybe to make and fit some collapsible hammocks like they used in the original Bay Window VWS roofs or is this a too old fashioned idea maybe?


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## barge1914 (Aug 27, 2020)

in h said:


> Until your village was bought up by the English for holiday homes, our village had three pubs, a post office and two shops. Now we just have one community shop, no pub, no post office.
> Bloody English!


Funny, same pattern of events in our village in the Peak District, it happens with changing economies, I’m not looking for scapegoats. Without tourists our local population can’t quite sustain the remaining  pub bought out by the villagers, so much as they are a pain at times it’s good to see them back.


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## groyne (Aug 28, 2020)

> Until your village was bought up by the English for holiday homes, our village had three pubs, a post office and two shops. Now we just have one community shop, no pub, no post office.
> Bloody English!



Don't blame the buyer, who sold out to the "Bloody English" in the first place?


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## Debroos (Aug 28, 2020)

groyne said:


> Don't blame the buyer, who sold out to the "Bloody English" in the first place?


Mostly they sold out years ago when house prices were really low and they had to leave to find work.
Same thing happened in Cornwall. The area was so impoverished that it qualified for 2 lots of category 1 eu funding...
So don't blame the local either!


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## Harryw (Aug 28, 2020)

Anyone here, filmed this morning driving into Sheildiag merrily throwing litter out of a window.
Captured on a locals dashcam.


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## barge1914 (Aug 28, 2020)

Norfolk Jim said:


> Seems a good idea in principle but in this country; speaking as a professional in architecture, we have such a woolly system it would take ages to get one approved. Land ownership being a big issue, then the local authority planning committee (it would have to go before them) not understanding what Aires are and how they implement them service wise to ensure - dare I say it, they don't become simply traveller sites! I know there are the odd one or two popping up here and there but these still have toilets - I don't know of one in UK which is simply a service point and driver break stop. It's entrance would also need to be designed to ensure it didn't end up as a lorry park!


As an Architect, which I believe qualifies as a professional in architecture, I am working with Campra who in cooperation with the motorhome professional organisation Campa are having discussion with Scottish tourist organisations, authorities and funding bodies to try and set up a network of motorhome service points, Aires and authorised parking places to try to address these problems and leave our Wildcamping spots less cluttered and fouled. As you rightly say it all takes time, but that’s no reason to be defeatist, slowly progress is being made in a positive direction. Parallel efforts are being made with an exemption certificate holder to facilitate self contained motorhome specific certified sites on private land. Local authorities already have the powers to establish such facilities, but they need encouragement and funding...another slow process. We now have over 8000 members.  Anyone with commitment, perseverance and initiative is welcome to join us....I’m just putting my umbrella up...since saying this usually invokes a shower of s**t.


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## in h (Aug 28, 2020)

groyne said:


> Don't blame the buyer, who sold out to the "Bloody English" in the first place?


In our village, the people who sold were all English.
Tends to happen quite a lot in England.


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## garydavidson83 (Aug 30, 2020)

runnach said:


> Gary, you joined a year ago as a free member and this is your first post, do you own a camper or MH?


I do indeed own one.

I guess it is just me that find it ironic that so many are angry about the generalised remarks and reply with their own sweeping xenophobic remarks?

I only quoted to of the numerous ridiculous replies in which people let slip their own prejudices.


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## bigbarry (Aug 30, 2020)

Unless the link to the petition restricts what this MP originally posted I cannot see anything detrimental to Motorhomers.  It's just asking for consultation with local communities.


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## kim (Aug 30, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Bill well you cant beat a wee letter which is straight to the point.For some reason I feel this MP Jamie  is not long out of nappies i/e a very young fellow who needs leading by the nose.If many others on here pen him a similar email maybe the penny will drop.
> atb.


Doubtful, no man can put in what the Lord left out.


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## mikeroch (Aug 30, 2020)

I live next to one of the two single-lane sections of the NC500 just north of Lochinver in Sutherland, the other being on Applecross a little to the south.  The road network in the far north reflects the local population density and historic traffic flow, and has served us well.  I'm sure that everyone has experienced a 'pulsing' effect in traffic flow on major roads when the weight of vehicles exceeds a certain level,  such an effect builds slowly but eventually decays reverting to normal flow once traffic density eases.  Now imagine imposing a sudden increase in traffic many times the norm onto a road designed only for light traffic ... the outcome is inevitable.

Camper van hire companies have proliferated on the back of NC500, with many hiring out large vans to absolute novices. Being inexperienced and largely unprepared for the extingencies of van travel in a sensitive environment, add an almost complete absence of public toilets and disposal points and you'll soon find cassette contents dumped inappropriately and drivers afraid to manoeuvre in tight spots locked rigid with fear of damaging their hired van.

For many years adventurous motorhome travellers have quietly driven and enjoyed these roads, parking up overnight in wild places and moving on next day leaving no trace. Proper 'Wild Camping' by experienced hikers camped deep in the landscape In little tents or in bothies similarly ... no harm done. The real harm is being caused not by motorhomes, even those carrying clueless beginners, but by insensitive and sometimes obnoxious tent campers often travelling in a convoy of vehicles camping up 'festival fashion' right by the roadside and leaving their detritus behind before blitzing off in a cloud of dust next day. Don't overlook the fact that such groups also rotate around the route in opposing directions, which adds enormously to the excitement. Watching, as I do with great pleasure, two such groups trying to resolve how to pass each other on the B869 with just one small passing bay is really entertaining!

The few hundred souls that live on the 25 mile Lochinver to Kylesku B869 loop are hugely affected however, many who have lived their whole lives quietly and happily there have reluctantly sold up and moved away because a 20 minute drive to the village involves a hazardous 3 hour game of dodgems during The Season. A visit to the Doctor becomes a major undertaking requiring military planning.

Doctor, ambulance, bin lorry, courier vans, postman, police, coastguard and increasingly vehicle recovery trucks intent on picking up crashed or bogged NC500 drivers, all have to go about their business in the midst of the mayhem. It's great for the village shops and the accommodation providers, far less so for everyone else.

Visitors have always been welcome up here, but in the past they did so in a steady fashion, however sadly with the vastly increased traffic flow, the infrastructure cannot cope. We are rather hoping that once Covid fades and air travel resumes that the lunatic fringe will revert to their natural habitat in The Med. Problem is, you cannot un-shoot an arrow or un-ring a bell. The NC500 is here to stay 

Well, enough of this, I have to get down the village and buy a newspaper, it's about a mile ... so let me see, check-list: watch, wallet, spectacles, testicles, emergency rations, sleeping bag, mobile phone. Yes I think that does it. I'm just going outside ... I might be some time.


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## peter palance (Aug 30, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> I felt that I wanted to cover his points.
> If I started going into other issues the letter would have been even longer.
> Brevity was at risk, and I decided not to mention these issues.
> But hopefully someone else will highlight this to Mr Stone.


please dont through any, it '' mite'' go to his head, i reserve the right to be hypothetical, if they can use plethora, i can use plenary,or hypothetical,in any way i choose.  go a head, hit it with your rythum stick,  do not sing his prays. ok.pj.


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## Tookey (Aug 30, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> I live next to one of the two single-lane sections of the NC500 just north of Lochinver in Sutherland, the other being on Applecross a little to the south.  The road network in the far north reflects the local population density and historic traffic flow, and has served us well.  I'm sure that everyone has experienced a 'pulsing' effect in traffic flow on major roads when the weight of vehicles exceeds a certain level,  such an effect builds slowly but eventually decays reverting to normal flow once traffic density eases.  Now imagine imposing a sudden increase in traffic many times the norm onto a road designed only for light traffic ... the outcome is inevitable.
> 
> Camper van hire companies have proliferated on the back of NC500, with many hiring out large vans to absolute novices. Being inexperienced and largely unprepared for the extingencies of van travel in a sensitive environment, add an almost complete absence of public toilets and disposal points and you'll soon find cassette contents dumped inappropriately and drivers afraid to manoeuvre in tight spots locked rigid with fear of damaging their hired van.
> 
> ...


As a local please could you share what is the general consensus of your neighbours on the NC; (the roads are public so obviously they cant close the NC but what would they like to do)

1. Ban it completely to campers

2. Close the route for a couple of years and put in place more passing places and suitable amenities for tents and vehicles at the cost to the tax payer (investment hopefully) and reopen

3. Usually only too busy for 6 weeks a year and this year is an exception due to covid. Everyone in East Anglia is stuck behind a tractor during harvest time and they don't moan, their economy is farming part of ours is tourism. It is what it is


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## peter palance (Aug 30, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> I live next to one of the two single-lane sections of the NC500 just north of Lochinver in Sutherland, the other being on Applecross a little to the south.  The road network in the far north reflects the local population density and historic traffic flow, and has served us well.  I'm sure that everyone has experienced a 'pulsing' effect in traffic flow on major roads when the weight of vehicles exceeds a certain level,  such an effect builds slowly but eventually decays reverting to normal flow once traffic density eases.  Now imagine imposing a sudden increase in traffic many times the norm onto a road designed only for light traffic ... the outcome is inevitable.
> 
> Camper van hire companies have proliferated on the back of NC500, with many hiring out large vans to absolute novices. Being inexperienced and largely unprepared for the extingencies of van travel in a sensitive environment, add an almost complete absence of public toilets and disposal points and you'll soon find cassette contents dumped inappropriately and drivers afraid to manoeuvre in tight spots locked rigid with fear of damaging their hired van.
> 
> ...


so you have the balls for it, ''mite'' i say hang on to them, you may need them one day, even if its just to'' cheque'' your list, ok pj. just testing?


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## davep10000 (Aug 30, 2020)

Mike,
I remember the main Kylesku to Rhiconich single track road very well before the eu funding to get it upgraded to the excellent road it is now.
Imagine that as it was, with all the traffic now.
I regularly help out with the sheep at my friends croft farm in Achlyness (They are still waiting for mains electric!) and their comments echo yours about the drivers of the motorhomes not having a clue how to negotiate single track roads (and often in convoy making it even worse).
I loved your Lochinver road, but now I wouldnt use it in peak season, which is a shame. I suppose the clachtoll beach area always was popular though.

My sympathies to the locals who have to use the road on a daily basis.

Education of drivers is probably the answer, its not the size of the motorhomes as such. (My friend also drives a 40' artic fish wagon on the single track road from laxford bridge to Lairg - its the only route - the biggest hazard used to be the deer).

D.


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## Pandaman2020 (Aug 30, 2020)

Harryw said:


> Anyone here, filmed this morning driving into Sheildiag merrily throwing litter out of a window.
> Captured on a locals dashcam.
> View attachment 85909



report him? It is an offence same as fly tipping


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## sparrks (Aug 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> FWIW, I posted the maths to a shower of anti-4x4 cyclists over on a cycling forum many years ago. The pressure on the road (in psi) and hence the likelihood of damage, is given by the mass of vehicle and occupants (in pounds) divided by the total contact area (in square inches) between the tyres and the road. Although bicycles are very light, an average road bicycle has a miniscule contact area and so the pressure exerted on the road by a typical 'roadie' cyclist is considerably greater than that exerted by a full-sized 4x4! FWIW, as a rough approximation, the tyre pressure also gives a rough estimate of pressure on the road. So a typical 'roadie' (~100 to 120 psi) will exert more pressure on the road than any motorhome I know of, and even MTBs typically run with tyres inflated to over 50 psi...


Get a load of 4x4's to go around a Velodrome and see how long it lasts....

PS what size is a 'miniscule' contact area?

2 groups of vehicles go down  a muddy lane - 1 group 4 lots of 4x4,  the 2nd group 4 x mountain bikes which group rips the ground apart the most?


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## GeoffL (Aug 30, 2020)

sparrks said:


> Get a load of 4x4's to go around a Velodrome and see how long it lasts....
> 
> PS what size is a 'miniscule' contact area?
> 
> 2 groups of vehicles go down  a muddy lane - 1 group 4 lots of 4x4,  the 2nd group 4 x mountain bikes which group rips the ground apart the most?


Nice attempt at straw men. You are trying to compare apples and oranges as the structure of velodromes are very different to roads. Velodromes are intended to support only lightweight vehicles while roads are intended to support vehicle up to 44 tonnes GVW.

To work out maximum contact areas, try doing the maths yourself. Divide the gross mass of the vehicle by the pressure of the tyres. Since the tyre structure adds stiffness, the actual contact area will be less than the calculated value -- but it's a good approximation. Thus, for 80kg (~176lb) of bike and rider on tyres inflated to 120psi, the total contact area for both wheels will be no more than 176/120 ~ 1.5 sq in.

BTW. we are not talking about muddy lanes here; we're talking about metalled roads that are supposed to be maintained in good condition.


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## sparrks (Aug 30, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> Nice attempt at straw men. You are trying to compare apples and oranges as the structure of velodromes are very different to roads. Velodromes are intended to support only lightweight vehicles while roads are intended to support vehicle up to 44 tonnes GVW.
> 
> To work out maximum contact areas, try doing the maths yourself. Divide the gross mass of the vehicle by the pressure of the tyres. Since the tyre structure adds stiffness, the actual contact area will be less than the calculated value -- but it's a good approximation. Thus, for 80kg (~176lb) of bike and rider on tyres inflated to 120psi, the total contact area for both wheels will be no more than 176/120 ~ 1.5 sq in.
> 
> BTW. we are not talking about muddy lanes here; we're talking about metalled roads that are supposed to be maintained in good condition.


My van is 3.3 tonnes, on full steering lock the tyres damage the road surface whilst turning - both my mountain bike and road bike leaves no marks.
On both heavy acceleration and braking the heavier vehicle is the one that causes the damage to the road.
Drive down most motorways, thinking of the M6 in particular you will find stretches where there are 'tram' lines caused by heavy vehicles - care to provide evidence of such lines caused by bicycles?


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## GeoffL (Aug 30, 2020)

Note linear wear marks on both cycleways. On roads that have a lot of cycle traffic, the edges near the kerb can become riddled with potholes -- you know, the bit that most cars don't drive on -- yet motorists still get the blame! Also, don't forget that on lane 1 of the M6 it's a constant stream of very heavy vehicles 24/7 whereas most cycle traffic is orders of magnitude less. Edited to add that a quick bit of 'net research suggests that HGV tyres are typically inflated at 100 psi or over compared with the 30 to 35 psi typical of 4x4s.

BTW, the phenomenon you describe by moving your steering lock to lock while stationary is called scrubbing and that happens because the bit of tyre that is causing (and getting) damage isn't rolling over the road. When you try the same thing with a bicycle, you're not usually putting all your weight on the machine (i.e. chances are most of your weight will be on the foot that's preventing you from toppling over) and so, once again, you're comparing apples with oranges. Next time, try doing a track stand and vigourously moving the handlebars full lock side to side -- you'll see the same effect as you note with the motorhome.


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## Red Dwarf (Aug 31, 2020)

The NC500 has changed life here in the north, no question about that. All who live here have their tales of particularly silly incidents with tourists.
Two incidents that come to mind of single tack shenanigans...
A couple cycling side by side listening to music through headphones, both being oblivious to my presence behind them.
A motor home met head on that needed to reverse fifteen feet back to a passing place, the driver totally unable to make the manoeuvre.
Nothing too out of the ordinary with these examples, except for the fact I was driving an ambulance........


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## Sid (Aug 31, 2020)

GeoffL said:


> I'd be very happy to pay a reasonable fee to take on fresh water and dispose of trash, grey and black waste at official 'leisure vehicle service points'. It can't be beyond the wit of man to build service points and, as they won't be stopovers, they won't be subjected to any anti-caravan planning legislation. I suspect that, given the convenience they would present, most would prefer to use proper service points than skulk around the nearest public loos etc. I know that I'd be happy to pay £5-£10 a time to pump and dump.
> 
> 
> I agree. However, with a reasonable network of service points available there'll be a much stronger case with which to take those miscreants to task IMO.


That would be just like the ones on Harris, £3 to empty the potty and a fiver to camp by the beach. Just excellent, cos let's face one doesn't or rather can't wild camp in a 3.5 T van or even a VW. It's free loading or slightly more romantically off grid, dry camping or boon docking. I have been wild camping in Knoydart and you definately wouldn't get a m/h up there. So now I have to make do with a bit of free loading or off grid camping.


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## Fisherman (Aug 31, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> I live next to one of the two single-lane sections of the NC500 just north of Lochinver in Sutherland, the other being on Applecross a little to the south.  The road network in the far north reflects the local population density and historic traffic flow, and has served us well.  I'm sure that everyone has experienced a 'pulsing' effect in traffic flow on major roads when the weight of vehicles exceeds a certain level,  such an effect builds slowly but eventually decays reverting to normal flow once traffic density eases.  Now imagine imposing a sudden increase in traffic many times the norm onto a road designed only for light traffic ... the outcome is inevitable.
> 
> Camper van hire companies have proliferated on the back of NC500, with many hiring out large vans to absolute novices. Being inexperienced and largely unprepared for the extingencies of van travel in a sensitive environment, add an almost complete absence of public toilets and disposal points and you'll soon find cassette contents dumped inappropriately and drivers afraid to manoeuvre in tight spots locked rigid with fear of damaging their hired van.
> 
> ...




Mike I see you have only posted 13 times, what a shame because that post pretty well summed up perfectly what’s going on within the madness that’s known as the NC 500. It’s only a pity that those who dreamt up this idea had not thought of the full consequences of this route. They seemed to think that the NC 500 would only be the remit of hotel and b&b dwellers who would fill the coffers of of these establishments on Scotland’s most remote land mass. No real thought was given to those of us who enjoy the freedom that our mobile home from homes offer, or those who prefer to pitch tents. And this year has as you say witnessed a rise in people who have no respect for the environments they visit, with selfish behaviour, that same behaviour that created the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs camping controls during the summer months.

But let’s not lay all of the blame on one side.
Those in power have been caught with their pants down here.
They have failed miserably to put into place simple cost effective measures that would have both helped alleviate many of the issues, and created income for local councils and economies. Also basing the needs for local infrastructure solely on the needs of the local population beggars belief. Any such planning must surely take into consideration the full needs placed upon that infrastructure. To ignore this seemingly obvious requirement has primarily been responsible for many of the problems now being created by such poorly funded inadequate infrastructure.


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## Wully (Aug 31, 2020)

A lot of the people who do the north coast 500 think they’ll find this.


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## peter palance (Aug 31, 2020)

Wully said:


> A lot of the people who do the north coast 500 think they’ll find this.


thank you wully, very nice,what can one really say, yes true enjoyment,please do it again, diolch. thank you very much, ok.pj. hope your keeping well.


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## 2cv (Aug 31, 2020)

Wully said:


> A lot of the people who do the north coast 500 think they’ll find this.



Thanks for that Wully, absolutely brilliant.


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## kensowerby (Aug 31, 2020)

Many years ago I took a load from Borden to Fort William, long before the m6 and fancy roads, took all of 3 weeks, every stop required bed plates to drive onto so that we didn't sink, 80 ton load and 103ft long, 
I now drive a 3500 motorhome, if it was possible I would be quite happy to let this supposedly educated  idiot lay down in the road and let me driver over him, left leg for the camper van, right leg for the big load, then with practical  experience he would be able to tell which did the most damage.
I realy get very worried at times at some of the statements that these (clever people ) come up with, I think we would get more sense out of the loony bin.


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## GeoffL (Sep 1, 2020)

kensowerby said:


> Many years ago I took a load from Borden to Fort William, long before the m6 and fancy roads, took all of 3 weeks, every stop required bed plates to drive onto so that we didn't sink, 80 ton load and 103ft long,
> I now drive a 3500 motorhome, if it was possible I would be quite happy to let this supposedly educated  idiot lay down in the road and let me driver over him, left leg for the camper van, right leg for the big load, then with practical  experience he would be able to tell which did the most damage.
> I realy get very worried at times at some of the statements that these (clever people ) come up with, I think we would get more sense out of the loony bin.


Presumably, I'm the "supposedly educated idiot".

It is astonshing that some (truly ignorant) people can't believe the laws of physics. I suspect that it never occured to the genteman driving his 100 tons of rig and load that the reason he needed to drive onto bed plates to park up each night was that the pressure his tyres exerted on the ground (which I'll guess was a typical gravel truck stop of the day) was well over 100 psi. I suspect the reason why experienced off-road drivers reduce their tyre pressure, sometimes down to just a few psi, before driving on snow or soft sand never occurred to that gentleman; and I also suspect that he hasn't considered what would happen if he attempted to cross the same surface mounted on a bicycle fitted with narrow tyres inflated to 120 psi.

Back in post #11, @SquirrellCook wrote, "_Don't confuse the gross weight of a vehicle with the pressure that is applied to the ground by the tyres. I'm often told I'm too fat for the ground conditions by those that don't understand._" The point being that Jamie Stone MP had opined that 'very heavy motorhomes' were destroying the road around the NC500 and that, "_Having a few hundred bicycles is not doing the damage -- Instead, it's the heavy vehicles that crush our narrow single track roads [...]"_. Others posting to this thread suggested the damage was more likely due heavy logging and delivery lorries than motorhomes. (BTW, Jamie Stone never mentioned lorries, but he does mention nurses who get stuck behind, "_a campervan, motorhome or huge car hosting a tent_"!) FWIW, I merely pointed out that even a road-specific bicycle exerts more pressure (*PRESSURE* not weight) on the road than any motorhome I know of and hence Jamie Stone's claim was BS.


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## Debroos (Sep 1, 2020)

Wully said:


> A lot of the people who do the north coast 500 think they’ll find this.


Reminded me of a tale my father told of when he was a wee farm lad in the 20's in Dumfriesshire (and very poor at the time). A car with German tourists in stopped to take a photo of him and his siblings on a country lane...it was only after he had got much older that he realised that the tourists were photographing the picturesque ragged peasants!


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## mikeroch (Sep 1, 2020)

Tookey said:


> As a local please could you share what is the general consensus of your neighbours on the NC; (the roads are public so obviously they cant close the NC but what would they like to do)
> 
> 1. Ban it completely to campers
> 
> ...


There is a grudging acceptance that the benefits to the area are worth having but with that comes real reservations that, at its worst and most frantic, the impact of numbers seriously damages and degrades exactly what makes the area attractive in the first place.  I suspect that any bolshiness directed at camper vans in particular is to do with their bulk on tiny roads and their self-contained nature having no real need to spend on any local facilities beyond a bit of shopping and fuel.  If the 'campers' to which you refer means 'tent campers' then I can see a need to reign them in, but Scottish access rules permit one overnight of Wild Camping as a right ... with the caveat that campers should "respect the countryside", sadly appealing to some folks' Better Natures is a non-starter.  Loch Lomond area has slapped on bylaws to control all camping, sadly I can see this practice spreading.

1.  Probably not, the Genie is out of the bottle.
2. I think that the single-lane roads with passing places should be written out of the route and, as you suggest,  'Aires'  with  sewage disposal / water taps / dumpsters created (possibly paid-for, say £5 a night?) created by Highland Council (HC) ... I understand that just such a possibility is being discussed, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for HC to spring into action.
3. Accepted that it's a holiday-season 'spike' with this year Covid creating a spike on the spike, that said, even pre-Covid, 26,000 vehicles _over and above_ normal traffic travelled the route. I can only comment on my own back-yard experience.... the B869 brings over-pressure on the road into very sharp focus, that section needs to be culled from the route, doing so would ease matters significantly while still taking travellers through some outstanding landscape.  Two-lane roads cope with NC500 traffic much better and can pretty much handle anything that's thrown at them... sometimes it's thrown very fast!  Boy racer convoys giving it some serious welly have been clocked at over 120mph on some of the tempting clear and empty sections.  This brings joy to the heart of the Cops who periodically have a field-day with their speed guns, business is brisk.  That style of driving is more akin to 'Cannonball Run' and not in keeping with the peace and quiet that typifies the area see https://tinyurl.com/y447bxpt

Some back-pedalling on publicity would not go amiss, hyped as "Scotland's answer to Route 66" it has become "a challenge" and "The Thing To Do" with its own 'Passport' which can be stamped at various points along the way, this encourages a competitive 'get-stuck-in' driving style rather than an thoughtful and appreciative cruise with pauses to stop and stare.

Here's the view from my balcony, the B869 is on the right.  I stop and stare at this quite a bit!

 click to enlarge.


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## in h (Sep 1, 2020)

Wully said:


> A lot of the people who do the north coast 500 think they’ll find this.


That was a wonderful find! Thank you for posting it.
That was 1957. I don't think we went to that area until we bought our VW camper in 1960, but we went to the Highlands at least once every year. 
It really was like that then. 
We used to wild camp in the most amazing places. 
When you saw another motorhome, you waved. Quite infrequent, though: maybe once a week if you were lucky!


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## Tookey (Sep 1, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> There is a grudging acceptance that the benefits to the area are worth having but with that comes real reservations that, at its worst and most frantic, the impact of numbers seriously damages and degrades exactly what makes the area attractive in the first place.  I suspect that any bolshiness directed at camper vans in particular is to do with their bulk on tiny roads and their self-contained nature having no real need to spend on any local facilities beyond a bit of shopping and fuel.  If the 'campers' to which you refer means 'tent campers' then I can see a need to reign them in, but Scottish access rules permit one overnight of Wild Camping as a right ... with the caveat that campers should "respect the countryside", sadly appealing to some folks' Better Natures is a non-starter.  Loch Lomond area has slapped on bylaws to control all camping, sadly I can see this practice spreading.
> 
> 1.  Probably not, the Genie is out of the bottle.
> 2. I think that the single-lane roads with passing places should be written out of the route and, as you suggest,  'Aires'  with  sewage disposal / water taps / dumpsters created (possibly paid-for, say £5 a night?) created by Highland Council (HC) ... I understand that just such a possibility is being discussed, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for HC to spring into action.
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to write that post. Beautiful view


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## caledonia (Sep 1, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> There is a grudging acceptance that the benefits to the area are worth having but with that comes real reservations that, at its worst and most frantic, the impact of numbers seriously damages and degrades exactly what makes the area attractive in the first place.  I suspect that any bolshiness directed at camper vans in particular is to do with their bulk on tiny roads and their self-contained nature having no real need to spend on any local facilities beyond a bit of shopping and fuel.  If the 'campers' to which you refer means 'tent campers' then I can see a need to reign them in, but Scottish access rules permit one overnight of Wild Camping as a right ... with the caveat that campers should "respect the countryside", sadly appealing to some folks' Better Natures is a non-starter.  Loch Lomond area has slapped on bylaws to control all camping, sadly I can see this practice spreading.
> 
> 1.  Probably not, the Genie is out of the bottle.
> 2. I think that the single-lane roads with passing places should be written out of the route and, as you suggest,  'Aires'  with  sewage disposal / water taps / dumpsters created (possibly paid-for, say £5 a night?) created by Highland Council (HC) ... I understand that just such a possibility is being discussed, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for HC to spring into action.
> ...


Can I ask are you Assynt born and bred and how do you make a living?


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## Deleted member 47550 (Sep 7, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> I live next to one of the two single-lane sections of the NC500 just north of Lochinver in Sutherland, the other being on Applecross a little to the south.  The road network in the far north reflects the local population density and historic traffic flow, and has served us well.  I'm sure that everyone has experienced a 'pulsing' effect in traffic flow on major roads when the weight of vehicles exceeds a certain level,  such an effect builds slowly but eventually decays reverting to normal flow once traffic density eases.  Now imagine imposing a sudden increase in traffic many times the norm onto a road designed only for light traffic ... the outcome is inevitable.
> 
> Camper van hire companies have proliferated on the back of NC500, with many hiring out large vans to absolute novices. Being inexperienced and largely unprepared for the extingencies of van travel in a sensitive environment, add an almost complete absence of public toilets and disposal points and you'll soon find cassette contents dumped inappropriately and drivers afraid to manoeuvre in tight spots locked rigid with fear of damaging their hired van.
> 
> ...


I think you have put this perfectly and feel sorry for you - we've always visited out of season for many years now and I personally would love to retire in the Lochinver area (nice pie shop) - I'd like to think I've managed to work out how to properly use the passing places. We have often stopped at Achmelvich campsite which we found by chance once. Even in our T5 I found it tight to get down the little roads and wary of oncoming local traffic but was amazed to find a large van at the site with massive trailer with jet ski's, kayaks and motor cross bikes on the back trying to get free camping! Only 2 other camper vans there and we found nice spot close to rocky inlet and settled in for the night. Obviously the large van didn't want to pay to camp as the next morning while we walked into Lochinver (over the hill seeing an otter play in the tiny loch) that van and boats etc were camped on the small car park completely filling it! Felt sorry for the locals as no-one else could park there. I see now that someone has built some camping pods and called them the 'North Coast 500 Pods' obviously trying to cash in on the route. Seems tranquillity is going now.


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## Deleted member 47550 (Sep 7, 2020)

mikeroch said:


> There is a grudging acceptance that the benefits to the area are worth having but with that comes real reservations that, at its worst and most frantic, the impact of numbers seriously damages and degrades exactly what makes the area attractive in the first place.  I suspect that any bolshiness directed at camper vans in particular is to do with their bulk on tiny roads and their self-contained nature having no real need to spend on any local facilities beyond a bit of shopping and fuel.  If the 'campers' to which you refer means 'tent campers' then I can see a need to reign them in, but Scottish access rules permit one overnight of Wild Camping as a right ... with the caveat that campers should "respect the countryside", sadly appealing to some folks' Better Natures is a non-starter.  Loch Lomond area has slapped on bylaws to control all camping, sadly I can see this practice spreading.
> 
> 1.  Probably not, the Genie is out of the bottle.
> 2. I think that the single-lane roads with passing places should be written out of the route and, as you suggest,  'Aires'  with  sewage disposal / water taps / dumpsters created (possibly paid-for, say £5 a night?) created by Highland Council (HC) ... I understand that just such a possibility is being discussed, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for HC to spring into action.
> ...


I'm glad the road from Lochinver to Altandhu Port A Bhaigh campsite isn't on NC500 - that's a little white knuckle even in our T5!


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