# Are councils finally getting it?



## alwaysared (Nov 3, 2021)

Finally?









						Gwynedd: Campervan overnight sites considered by council
					

Six Aires sites are recommended in towns and villages across Gwynedd following a staycation boom.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Regards,
Del


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## number14 (Nov 3, 2021)

SWMBO tells me that this is due in no small part to the efforts of Campra, so well done Campra.

Meanwhile Pembrokeshire remain steadfastly opposed. I am given to understand that many Pembrokeshire councillors have interests in campsites.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


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## alwaysared (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


But lots of our WC spots are already carparks and this type of aire offers us the chance to empty the cassette and fill up with water  

Regards,
Del


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## trevskoda (Nov 3, 2021)

Sleeping overnight due to being tired is legal in the highway code, but wildcamping is not unless permission from land owner, so nothing outside van and you are ok on places with no yellow lines or legal sineage.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Wild camping spots. Car parks.      What is the connection between wild camping  and car park.  Car parks are well a car park. Wild camping is as the title suggest. Wild.   Empty cassettes fill up. Ok why an aire. Lay-by with short term stop say 30 mins with amenities. Even lorry drivers would love that. Brian


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


Ok Brian, you say that we should not want Aires, stop overs, etc. you say that they will kill off wild camping spots.
Well Brian, can you give us an alternative.
Its fine to state that you don’t want something, but the status quo is getting us nowhere. In the past five years about a third of the places I have visited are now gone, and from what I gather it’s worse in England and Wales.

So you don’t want Aires, that's fine, but what’s your alternative Brian.
You must have an alternative idea to put forward.
And yes your idea of what wild camping is exactly that, your idea.
Others have different ideas.
Wild camping involves the use of a tent to some, not a comfortable Motorhome.


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## number14 (Nov 3, 2021)

Also this from local press.  Most of the comments are positive. https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/campervans-motorhomes-could-allowed-stay-22036161


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Wild camping. Without upsetting annoying or confusing anyone .in my opinion. Is as the title suggests in the open away from amenities. In the woods in the open spaces. Since 1978 i have had numerous motorhomes and have never had difficulty finding places. Admittedly the last 18 months it’s changing.  Due in my opinion to motorhomes congregating. And then locals complaining. All I think is  if you park aires. Car parks pubs  etc you are a motorhomer equals motorhome forum. If you wild camp equals wild camping forum. What is your opinion of wild camping. Brian. If authority’s want to spend thousands allowing motorhomes into car parks.  Great.  But don’t call it wild. Camping. All my threads are MY opinions   Not rules or judgements.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Wild camping. Without upsetting annoying or confusing anyone .in my opinion. Is as the title suggests in the open away from amenities. In the woods in the open spaces. Since 1978 i have had numerous motorhomes and have never had difficulty finding places. Admittedly the last 18 months it’s changing.  Due in my opinion to motorhomes congregating. And then locals complaining. All I think is  if you park aires. Car parks pubs  etc you are a motorhomer equals motorhome forum. If you wild camp equals wild camping forum. What is your opinion of wild camping. Brian. If authority’s want to spend thousands allowing motorhomes into car parks.  Great.  But don’t call it wild. Camping. All my threads are MY opinions   Not rules or judgements.


The title is subjective, it’s describes or suggests nothing. Its open to your own personal interpretation. It’s a vague term used by some, others refer to it as freedom camping, there are other terms used.
And you are not confusing or annoying myself, I have no problems with your interpretation Brian.
The fact is there are far more vans out there than when you started, with an ever decreasing amount of places for them to park, thats the reality of the current situation. 1978 was completely different from 2021.
Doing nothing sadly is not an option.
But I do wish that CAMpRA would do more to fight for our rights than setting up Aires. Because simply removing the many restrictions, would go a long way way to solving the issue, and would cost nothing. But I do applaud them for their efforts.

Sorry Brian my definition is staying somewhere were you don’t pay with no or limited facilities, basically just somewhere to park.  That can be up in the Scottish hills, on the banks of a loch, a carpark in a village, or even a city. But that’s just my definition. Many have different ideas, and that’s fine.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 3, 2021)

Ideally we would all be treated as motorists and have all the parking rights in your motorhome as you have in your car.  For whatever reason over the years we have become subject to restrictins n more and more places.   The continental example of how to deal with mtorhoomes is the one most of us fasten on.  If it works in France etc then it should work for us.

As a community we have our prejudices.   This what is wild camping and not wild camping argument is not one I have much patience with.   We all know it means overnighting without interference from local authorities.   Wherever that might be.   Having been a real wild camper in a previous life  I think it's laughable that some here think that parking up in an out of the way place (if you can find one), opening a cold beer from the fridge to drink while you're cooking your gourmet meal on your four burner cooker and oven, to eat at your dining table while drinking the nice bottle of white from the fridge already mentioned to be followed by a warm shower in your built in bathroom followed in its turn by Strictly on your colour telelvision.

Sheer effrontery to call that wild campting.

This is wild camping. Descend by parachute to your intended destination, use that parachute to make a tent and sleeping bag and cook a fish you;ve had to catch with whatever plant life you can find.  Descending by parachute is optional – if you have a parachute handy you can use that omitting the primary purpose.

Like this.   Now this's wild camping.


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## number14 (Nov 3, 2021)

I believe that the loss of WC spots over the last 2 years is largely due to a reaction against the bad behaviour of Benidorm staycationers with their new/rented mohos or disposable tents from Halfords. This coupled with the usual hysterical reporting by UK press which only served to magnify the situation out of proportion.
Sadly we cannot just flip a switch and return to 2019 or before. We are a crowded island all chasing limited resources and as such the establishment of aires will be need to be the compromise which is part of the new mix.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

number14 said:


> I believe that the loss of WC spots over the last 2 years is largely due to a reaction against the bad behaviour of Benidorm staycationers with their new/rented mohos or disposable tents from Halfords. This coupled with the usual hysterical reporting by UK press which only served to magnify the situation out of proportion.
> Sadly we cannot just flip a switch and return to 2019 or before. We are a crowded island all chasing limited resources and as such the establishment of aires will be need to be the compromise which is part of the new mix.


I agree number 14 that covid has accelerated what was already happening prior to Covid. But you only have to read the posts about Lochore on here to see there are other issues. And yes the media are a disgrace. And yes we will need some Aires, but we also need to try and undo many of the unnecessary narrow minded measures that have limited where we can stay also. And as we have seen in Lochore, even Aires meet with some resistance from some.


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## witzend (Nov 3, 2021)

Just remember We aren't been given anything we'll be paying for these aires and they'll be the same price as small camp sites


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## Biggarmac (Nov 3, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Doing nothing sadly is not an option.
> But I do wish that CAMpRA would do more to fight for our rights than setting up Aires. Because simply removing the many restrictions, would go a long way way to solving the issue, and would cost nothing. But I do applaud them for their efforts.
> 
> Sorry Brian my definition is staying somewhere were you don’t pay with no or limited facilities, basically just somewhere to park.  That can be up in the Scottish hills, on the banks of a loch, a carpark in a village, or even a city. But that’s just my definition. Many have different ideas, and that’s fine.


CAMpRA are a only a group of Motorhomers just like everyone on here.  Only a small nucleus are active.  When we get the chance to speak to the powers that be we are trying to get the many restrictions lifted.   The legal framework is 60 years out of date and confusing.  Councils could easily allow overnight parking in their carparks and many are starting to do so.  Some have done it for years - see Skipton.  Town centre carparks are not for everyone, but they are popular especially if you like to have a glass or wine (Other tipples are available) with a meal in a pub.  

With the increase in motorhome ownership and increased rental market we need more provision of all types of stopping places.  Unless there are easily accessible and officially sanctioned places the wild places we on this forum like will continue to be closed to us due to overuse.


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## RichardHelen262 (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


The more aires that we get will mean that people will then go to these rather than everyone heading to wild camping spots that get plastered all over the internet, so should make wild camping more enjoyable,
Also having aires gives us somewhere to go to to empty waste and refill water.
So what’s not to like


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## alcam (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


You do seem a tad obsessed about the terminology !
In my opinion you can wildcamp in an urban environment just as much as a rural one .
Think , to most people , it is camping out with actual campsites . 
Maybe you should have your own classification , Raw camping ?


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## Fazerloz (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Wild camping. Without upsetting annoying or confusing anyone .in my opinion. Is as the title suggests in the open away from amenities. In the woods in the open spaces. Since 1978 i have had numerous motorhomes and have never had difficulty finding places. Admittedly the last 18 months it’s changing.  Due in my opinion to motorhomes congregating. And then locals complaining. All I think is  if you park aires. Car parks pubs  etc you are a motorhomer equals motorhome forum. If you wild camp equals wild camping forum. What is your opinion of wild camping. Brian. If authority’s want to spend thousands allowing motorhomes into car parks.  Great.  But don’t call it wild. Camping. All my threads are MY opinions   Not rules or judgements.


And many would say the fact you use a MH means you are not a wild camper. Does all aspects of your life have to fit neatly into a pigeon hole with no cross over.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> CAMpRA are a only a group of Motorhomers just like everyone on here.  Only a small nucleus are active.  When we get the chance to speak to the powers that be we are trying to get the many restrictions lifted.   The legal framework is 60 years out of date and confusing.  Councils could easily allow overnight parking in their carparks and many are starting to do so.  Some have done it for years - see Skipton.  Town centre carparks are not for everyone, but they are popular especially if you like to have a glass or wine (Other tipples are available) with a meal in a pub.
> 
> With the increase in motorhome ownership and increased rental market we need more provision of all types of stopping places.  Unless there are easily accessible and officially sanctioned places the wild places we on this forum like will continue to be closed to us due to overuse.


Yes Mac we need aires and the lifting of some unnecessary restrictions I totally agree.
But as we have both noted at Lochore even Aires will meet with resistance.
But what's absolutely certain is doing nothing is not an option.
Referring to past times, as if nothing has changed is no longer an option.
In 2000 4,000 vans were registered last year it was four times that amount.
And in 2000 there were far less restrictions and more places to park, than there are now.
Trying to determine what wild camping is, and putting a definitive meaning only serves to add confusion.
In my opinion it's whatever you want to do, wherever you want to do it.
Quite frankly I regard it as a non issue.
Whats important is that we face up to the reality of our predicament, and behave pragmatically.


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## TeamRienza (Nov 3, 2021)

Wildcamping? Surely this is now a motorbike forum! Not that I am objecting otherwise we will be stopped from posting the vast majority of non wilding topics like the jokes thread.

By the same token is it not the case that wild campers would not post locations on this forum and thus encourage their overuse?

Davy


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## Val54 (Nov 3, 2021)

Like many on this forum, we use all forms of overnight locations and it is great that some Councils are starting to respond more positively to the needs of those of us who prefer not to use large formal campsites. Don't see the issue of having a foot in both forums. Simply put, more vans require more pitches of all types and the challenge for everyone is that provision keeps pace with growth, I'm all for more choice and not some narrow interpretation of wild camping.


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## GeoffL (Nov 3, 2021)

For me, wild camping is an important safety net more than anything -- something to fall back upon if we can't get a pitch. What planned 'wild camping' we do tends to be pub stops, although I've no aversion to spending the night in a picturesque 'out in the sticks' location. However, 'proper' wild camping needs support. Some aires have service points where you can pump and dump, so inclusion of these is at least as valid as listing WCs and water points. The same argument that aires are not wild camping applies even more so to pub stops IMO. We include those, so why not aires also?


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Excellent. Finally. For a while I have mentioned wild camping. And even often stated that I might have the wrong opinion on what wild camping forum is     Now some people are giving their opinions of it   Excellent.  Now I can read there opinions and possibly form new opinions. To me life is learning.     Although  I agree with the parachute item.  I think it is a bit extreme      So.  Cheers for some good reading and interesting points. Brian


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## barryd (Nov 3, 2021)

Wild camping (parking, call it what you like, I call it wilding) is finding a remote spot on your own away from people, houses, towns etc.  Somewhere idyllic with a nice view.  Car park aires are not for me. However having said that. They are needed for all the reasons mentioned as are more service points so well done Campra for their efforts so far.  What I would like to see is a change in the laws for setting up private motorhome only Aires. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in France, not just the ones the local councils put up but private ones. Ok we have CL sites which are great but you have to spend ages trying to get hold of owners to book and they are limited to five vans.   Its supply and demand and surely there is now the demand but there must be something stopping farms, nurseries, pubs etc putting up first come first served private Aires like they have in Europe so relax the laws and maybe more will have a go at it.


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## GeoffL (Nov 3, 2021)

FWIW, what I really like about the WC app is the ability to filter. So you can filter out aires if they are not your thing; you can also filter out urban car parks or any of the other categories. So the app is fully adaptable to whatever style of 'wild camping' you want to do.

Frankly, I can't agree with the premise that having aires will reduce the number of wild camping locations, simply because anti-motorhome councils etc. (like Cornwall) will ban wild camping whether or not aires are provided and I strongly suspect that those who are pro motorhome will continue to either explicitly allow overnight parking (rather than camping) or just turn a blind eye as they do currently.

I also suspect hope that the changes in legislation to make it possible to quickly remove undesirables from a location without the hassle of going through the courts for an eviction order might result in councils and landowners being less likely to erect height barriers etc.


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## maingate (Nov 3, 2021)

I'm with Tom on this (post 11).

I started in the 60's with a sleeping bag, a change of clothes and a trusty thumb to hitch hike around the country. Finding an out of the way spot to overnight is camping but there is nothing wild about it.  

It might be better to call us occasional wild spotters but truly wild spots are getting rarer.


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## Snapster (Nov 3, 2021)

barryd said:


> Wild camping (parking, call it what you like, I call it wilding) is finding a remote spot on your own away from people, houses, towns etc.  Somewhere idyllic with a nice view.  Car park aires are not for me. However having said that. They are needed for all the reasons mentioned as are more service points so well done Campra for their efforts so far.  What I would like to see is a change in the laws for setting up private motorhome only Aires. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in France, not just the ones the local councils put up but private ones. Ok we have CL sites which are great but you have to spend ages trying to get hold of owners to book and they are limited to five vans.   Its supply and demand and surely there is now the demand but there must be something stopping farms, nurseries, pubs etc putting up first come first served private Aires like they have in Europe so relax the laws and maybe more will have a go at it.


I don’t think the U.K. will ever have an aires system like France ( and the majority of Europe) certainly, in France there is a proper Right to Roam and wildcamping ( however you define it) is acceptable and quite common, as long as the facility is not abused.  There are also very very few interfering busybodies who enjoy telling you you can’t sleep / stop there or contact the local paper telling them they have seen you emptying your cassette/ leaving tons of rubbish around. 
But, even in France, restrictions are being put in place in some areas and aires are closing down or being moved away from coastal towns and beauty spots, reasons given are that areas are becoming congested with wildcampers or local roads in tiny coastal villages are becoming congested by large motorhomes. 
This has happened along the south Brittany coast where many of their aires were closed during the summer. 
Portugal and Spain are also clamping down on wild camping, especially where dozens of vans congregate on beaches and other busy tourist areas. 
England, unfortunately, has no real right to roam and Wales has implied ( or by now probably legislated) that wild camping is illegal. 
It’s really nice to find a remote spot somewhere nice and quiet with great views and spend a night or two there and I envy you if you can, and long may it continue, but, I am guessing they won’t be around for long as soon as a busy body member of the public spots you……


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## tony (Nov 3, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Sleeping overnight due to being tired is legal in the highway code, but wildcamping is not unless permission from land owner, so nothing outside van and you are ok on places with no yellow lines or legal sineage.


what about when you have the blinds down ?
tony


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## alcam (Nov 3, 2021)

tony said:


> what about when you have the blinds down ?
> tony


You can do what you like , as long as any partner you may have agrees 
Blow up dolls have no rights 
Yet


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## barryd (Nov 3, 2021)

Snapster said:


> I don’t think the U.K. will ever have an aires system like France ( and the majority of Europe) certainly, in France there is a proper Right to Roam and wildcamping ( however you define it) is acceptable and quite common, as long as the facility is not abused.  There are also very very few interfering busybodies who enjoy telling you you can’t sleep / stop there or contact the local paper telling them they have seen you emptying your cassette/ leaving tons of rubbish around.
> But, even in France, restrictions are being put in place in some areas and aires are closing down or being moved away from coastal towns and beauty spots, reasons given are that areas are becoming congested with wildcampers or local roads in tiny coastal villages are becoming congested by large motorhomes.
> This has happened along the south Brittany coast where many of their aires were closed during the summer.
> Portugal and Spain are also clamping down on wild camping, especially where dozens of vans congregate on beaches and other busy tourist areas.
> ...



Brittany from memory has always had lots of no overnighting signs all over the place but it also has the largest number of aires than any other region which kind of supports Brians claim (think it was him) that if you have lots of aires then we will be forced onto them and wilding will come to a stop.   However I think that boats sailed, its already on its way out aires or not.

Its another reason why I would support private Aires rather than council ones.  Chances are they would be somewhere people want to go and more attractive than a car park.  There are some fabulous Aires in France, I just cant see that happening here unless someone wants to particularly attract motorhomes rather than a council just providing a car park and dump mainly because they think they are dealing with a problem.


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## trevskoda (Nov 3, 2021)

tony said:


> what about when you have the blinds down ?
> tony


Dont mention blinds in the h code, rule 91, I pull my house blinds at night but I'm not wildcamping LOL.


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## Minisorella (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Why if we are a wild camping forum do we want aires.  Aires are going to kill off wild camping spots. The authority’s will say you can’t stop here we have provided you with aires , so ,we will end up ,well the same as a campsite ,surrounded. Brian. Ps maybe my idea of wild camping is different to others. Come on admin define for us wild camping then those that aren’t wild camping can go on the motorhome forum


True wildcamping spots are fast disappearing anyway, so if we don't get aires we'd end up with nowhere to go but big campsites. Yes, it's a compromise but it's better than nothing! Little bit unfair of you to be so judgemental about people who'd use aires. Most of us would love to wild camp all the time but in practice have to swap around between wilding, pub stops and the occasional campsite for topups, etc. No-one should be excluded from the forum for not being 'pure' enough


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## Minisorella (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Wild camping spots. Car parks.      What is the connection between wild camping  and car park.  Car parks are well a car park. Wild camping is as the title suggest. Wild.   Empty cassettes fill up. Ok why an aire. Lay-by with short term stop say 30 mins with amenities. Even lorry drivers would love that. Brian


So where exactly do you empty your toilet cassette Brian?


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## Minisorella (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Wild camping. Without upsetting annoying or confusing anyone .in my opinion. Is as the title suggests in the open away from amenities. In the woods in the open spaces. Since 1978 i have had numerous motorhomes and have never had difficulty finding places. Admittedly the last 18 months it’s changing.  Due in my opinion to motorhomes congregating. And then locals complaining. All I think is  if you park aires. Car parks pubs  etc you are a motorhomer equals motorhome forum. If you wild camp equals wild camping forum. What is your opinion of wild camping. Brian. If authority’s want to spend thousands allowing motorhomes into car parks.  Great.  But don’t call it wild. Camping. All my threads are MY opinions   Not rules or judgements.


Even if I never wild camped again for the rest of my life, there's no way you'll ever drive me away from this forum 
Most of us on here belong to Motorhomer too. Sometimes we wild camp, sometimes we don't. I do hope that's OK with you Brian?


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## Val54 (Nov 3, 2021)

I think we are in danger of yearning for a bygone era that will not be repeated. Witness France with the "commercial" interests taking over aires where they see a profit, whilst Portugal has reacted with more regulations. If any additional provision is made in the UK, surely that is a good thing, personally I don't see it making any significant difference to the loss of "wilding" opportunities.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Thread 32. 33not sure about the pure enough.   What has my opinion to do with pure.    To me if you have a motorhome and you use aires  pub parks  car parks etc you are a motorhome forum person.  If you have a motorhome and ,to use the expression wild camp then you are a wild camping forum person. This is why I asked people’s opinions of what they define wild camping as.  So I may learn that my opinions may be right or need changing.   Not to be pure  judgemental etc.  This is my opinion  and I am not judging people by what they do   Or say.  It is starting to appear that if you have a different opinion to someone you are opening the door to attacks    My opinion. Brian


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## mark61 (Nov 3, 2021)

Sometimes I stay on a site, sometimes a lay by, sometimes an aire, sometimes a motorway aire, sometimes in the wild, sometimes urban.
I call it camping or staying in me van, although neither are technically correct I suppose, I’ve yet to lose a nights sleep over what I call it.

Sometimes I think it wise to be discreet, sometimes less discreet and sometimes I’ll make a complete spectacle of myself. 
Variety is the spice.


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## Wully (Nov 3, 2021)

Wilding..campsites.. lay-bys..pub stops..Aires..Forum meetsI don’t see the difference  I’ll stay and use any of them just means I get better use out of my van and I’m not tying myself down to doing the one thing all the time. I’m a member on here because I have interests in wild camping I’m a member on motorhomer.com because I like the meets. I’m a meber of ccc because I want to stay on a nice site with services sometimes. I’ll stay at a pub on my way to somewhere. I think that’s what a motorhome is for enjoyment and freedom to go and do what you want.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Well Wully. Well put  I can’t agree with you more.  In my opinion 100%. Right.  It is your opinion  and if someone differs then that is down to them and there opinion. No need to get personal or annoyed over someone’s opinion. I might have to do a rethink on my opinion of you.   Lol.  Besides 5 and  a half years and we agree on comething. Wow. What’s the next five got in store.  Brian


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## Nabsim (Nov 3, 2021)

So, back to the theme of this bread lol

Anyway, I am an flt


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

I don't call myself anything - not a wildcamper, not a site camper, not a pub camper. I actually do all of those.

But where I do agree (and I've said many times) is that the creation of Aires all over the place, then wildcampers will be ushered onto them by the powers that be. To my mind Aires should be places where you can stop for an hour, empty waste and fill with water and then carry on your way. (having paid a small fee). Otherwise they are just sites with a different name.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

...Brilliant minds think alike Wully!


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac. I agree.   If all motorway rest areas had a waste and refill bay and charged say a £5 fee 30 minute stay. Think how much they could earn for a small outlay.  Or come to that any rest place.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Robmac. I agree.   If all motorway rest areas had a waste and refill bay and charged say a £5 fee 30 minute stay. Think how much they could earn for a small outlay.  Or come to that any rest place.



I don't think we will know for a couple of years Brian, but my fear is that the locals attitude to wildcampers will be "We pay all of this money to provide Aires and they freeload in laybys...". Then they will put pressure on councils to enforce, which in my case will be making me pay for something which I probably don't want ie. a campsite!

I may be wrong and it may seem irrational to some, but I am a cynic by nature and deeply suspicious of the motives of councils.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

In answer to where I empty my cassette. Learnt a good tip on here. Thank you Annie.   Cassette. Bag the solids. The pee  well toilets. Or drains. Or.  Bottled or even depending where and how well diluted  on the grass. Etc.  Not much different to a person peeing in the open. Which seems as it is happening a lot more  or maybe becoming more open   Brian.


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## Wully (Nov 3, 2021)

Think there is a couple of different  types of wild campers theres the tight arse brigade that won’t ever pay for a site or an Aire all down to pennies with this type wanting free facilities and complain about it when it costs a quid. And There’s the type who wild camp because they genuinely like the wilderness and scenery who like hugging trees you know all brains nae common sense type . Then you’ve got the anti social brigade who don’t like being or sharing with anybody the bullied at school type will stay on a field with 20 vans but they will be in a corner by themselves.   I like the idea of aires but as said it will cause problems down the line for wilding but the wilding spots were getting thinner anyway so better off with somewhere to park than no where to park.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

Wully said:


> Think there is a couple of different  types of wild campers theres the tight arse brigade that won’t ever pay for a site or an Aire all down to pennies with this type wanting free facilities and complain about it when it costs a quid. And There’s the type who wild camp because they genuinely like the wilderness and scenery who like hugging trees you know all brains nae common sense type . Then you’ve got the anti social brigade who don’t like being or sharing with anybody the bullied at school type will stay on a field with 20 vans but they will be in a corner by themselves.   I like the idea of aires but as said it will cause problems down the line for wilding but the wilding spots were getting thinner anyway so better off with somewhere to park than no where to park.



You're getting to be a bit of a flossiffer Wully!


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## Wully (Nov 3, 2021)

Man with one chopstick go hungry.


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## Makzine (Nov 3, 2021)

Most of the time we're not "camping" wild or otherwise as we don't put out the chairs and tables etc, we just park up for the night to eat and sleep.  Whether it's an Aire or a layby or carpark makes no difference to us as long as we're not bothering anyone.


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## caledonia (Nov 3, 2021)

Wully said:


> Think there is a couple of different  types of wild campers theres the tight arse brigade that won’t ever pay for a site or an Aire all down to pennies with this type wanting free facilities and complain about it when it costs a quid. And There’s the type who wild camp because they genuinely like the wilderness and scenery who like hugging trees you know all brains nae common sense type . Then you’ve got the anti social brigade who don’t like being or sharing with anybody the bullied at school type will stay on a field with 20 vans but they will be in a corner by themselves.   I like the idea of aires but as said it will cause problems down the line for wilding but the wilding spots were getting thinner anyway so better off with somewhere to park than no where to park.


I’m the one in the corner of the field. Don’t mind paying but most sites are organised into neat wee rows and we prefer our own company. Sands at Gairloch is my kinda site as you can always find a nice place to tuck yourself away. We used to like Findhorn but they’ve turned that into an aire type thing. We used to like Corrie na Ciste at Aviemore but they’ve turned that into an aire type thing.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

Makzine said:


> Most of the time we're not "camping" wild or otherwise as we don't put out the chairs and tables etc, we just park up for the night to eat and sleep.  Whether it's an Aire or a layby or carpark makes no difference to us as long as we're not bothering anyone.



There's the thing though, I like to put out chairs and a table in a wild spot somewhere, that's all part of the experience. As long as I don't hinder anybody or leave any trace why should it bother anybody.


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## brian c (Nov 3, 2021)

Okay interesting reading.  1.  Motorhome builder. =self build.                                2.Wild camping =.  Camping side                 3 Motorhomer.  = subjects relating to motorhomes non  camping side.         4.Would that be a definition of the three forums or ……,.,,,,brian


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Okay interesting reading.  Motorhome builder. =self build.                         Wild camping =.  Camping side                Motorhomer.  = subjects relating to motorhomes non  camping side.         Would that be a definition of the three forums or ……,.,,,,brian



That doesn't bother me Brian. There are people on the forums that don't even have a motorhome. Anybody is allowed within reason.

I do get where you are coming from though when discussions on a Wildcamping forum could possibly (and it's an opinion not a statement of fact), damage what the forum is essentially about. However, forums do evolve as does everything else unfortunately, so we may have to reluctantly move with the times!


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

To me the status quo is simply not an answer to what's going on.
So some don't want aires, but then don't offer an alternative.
Its really easy to say that we will be forced into aires,
that they are just the same as campsites, that they will become just as expensive.
But we need things to change.
Aires will create competition for the expensive campsites.
Campsites are rarely well positioned for us, being set up for tuggers who have access to a car.

If more and more of us use Aires then less will need to use campsites.
And those of us who love remote places will have less competition.
And the same applies to the many carparks that are closed to us in towns and villages.
There are all types of points that can be raised here.
But one thing is for certain, wether we accept the need for aires or not.
Parking up in a remote location alone is becoming more and more difficult,
and the way things are heading its going to become even more difficult.
And sadly thats the reality of what lies ahead.
And what's going on right now affects us all, regardless of how we interpret the term wild camping.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> To me the status quo is simply not an answer to what's going on.
> So some don't want aires, but then don't offer an alternative.
> Its really easy to say that we will be forced into aires,
> that they are just the same as campsites, that they will become just as expensive.
> ...



Terminology re wildcamping etc. aside Bill, I do suggest an alternative.

Waste and water stations with a half hour stay for a fee and if anybody wants to campaign, then let it be for the right to roam.


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## Minisorella (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> Okay interesting reading.  1.  Motorhome builder. =self build.                                2.Wild camping =.  Camping side                 3 Motorhomer.  = subjects relating to motorhomes non  camping side.         4.Would that be a definition of the three forums or ……,.,,,,brian


To be honest, I think it's much more flexible than that because we all get different things from each different forum and tend to chat about anything motorhome and/or camping related. Apart from you saying that Motorhomer is non-camping, your assessment above could be broadly useful if you want to look up something specific on a particular topic but membership criteria is a whole different issue and I don't think we should need to distinguish, as you seemed to be saying earlier. Don't forget, many of us were members of Wildcamping long before Motorhomer or Motorhome Builder came into being. Therefore, a heck of a lot of historical but useful information about motorhoming and motorhome maintenance/repair etc can still be found on Wildcamping, even if it didn't relate to wilding, if that makes sense.

I think the reason I felt my feathers beginning to ruffle a bit at your early posts is because there's no way I'd ever want to feel obliged to give up membership here, even though I don't wild camp much since my husband died. Apologies if it came over a little strong but we've had many people in the past being critical towards members at any mention of using a camp site, so it's a bit of an involuntary reaction  Most of us will camp in whichever circumstances are appropriate for each individual trip, so we like to have access to all the information available. Like Wully, I absolutely love the meets and they moved from here to Motorhomer, hence the joint membership. For me it's more about community and each forum brings something to the table, covering all three basic topics and beyond. I don't over-think it... I just enjoy!


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Terminology re wildcamping etc. aside Bill, I do suggest an alternative.
> 
> Waste and water stations with a half hour stay for a fee and if anybody wants to campaign, then let it be for the right to roam.


Yes Rob the right to roam, the right to park within the thousands of carparks that lye empty every night. It seems utter insanity that all of these parking spaces are lying empty but we have no access to them. If say 90% of the barriers and restrictions were removed tomorrow then the need for Aires would be very limited Rob. And your idea for filling/ emptying stations would be fine.
But sadly Rob I was dreaming when I dreamt up the example I just gave, it’s pie in the sky, it’s what the Viking’s called Valhalla.
Yes Rob, your idea would give us somewhere to empty our toilets and get freshwater, but it would do nothing to improve the lack of places where we can stay Rob. What’s needed is change, but what’s up for debate is what needs to change, and there’s were our differences lay.
16,000 vans were registered last year, Hymer, Carthago, Chausson, Adria, and others are building larger factories to build even more. That’s the reality, right I’m off to Valhalla, Hope I don’t meet any vikings who don’t like motorhomes


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## Minisorella (Nov 3, 2021)

brian c said:


> In answer to where I empty my cassette. Learnt a good tip on here. Thank you Annie.   Cassette. Bag the solids. The pee  well toilets. Or drains. Or.  Bottled or even depending where and how well diluted  on the grass. Etc.  Not much different to a person peeing in the open. Which seems as it is happening a lot more  or maybe becoming more open   Brian.


I'm not sure I like the idea of putting pee down a normal drain to be fair... it's a whole different treatment system that's usually kept entirely separate. Just my opinion.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> To be honest, I think it's much more flexible than that because we all get different things from each different forum and tend to chat about anything motorhome and/or camping related. Apart from you saying that Motorhomer is non-camping, your assessment above could be broadly useful if you want to look up something specific on a particular topic but membership criteria is a whole different issue and I don't think we should need to distinguish, as you seemed to be saying earlier. Don't forget, many of us were members of Wildcamping long before Motorhomer or Motorhome Builder came into being. Therefore, a heck of a lot of historical but useful information about motorhoming and motorhome maintenance/repair etc can still be found on Wildcamping, even if it didn't relate to wilding, if that makes sense.
> 
> I think the reason I felt my feathers beginning to ruffle a bit at your early posts is because there's no way I'd ever want to feel obliged to give up membership here, even though I don't wild camp much since my husband died. Apologies if it came over a little strong but we've had many people in the past being critical towards members at any mention of using a camp site, so it's a bit of an involuntary reaction  Most of us will camp in whichever circumstances are appropriate for each individual trip, so we like to have access to all the information available. Like Wully, I absolutely love the meets and they moved from here to Motorhomer, hence the joint membership. For me it's more about community and each forum brings something to the table, covering all three basic topics and beyond. I don't over-think it... I just enjoy!


Excellent post Jennie, well put.
I to feel exactly as you, but I cannot describe as well as you how I feel.


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## Robmac (Nov 3, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Yes Rob the right to roam, the right to park within the thousands of carparks that lye empty every night. It seems utter insanity that all of these parking spaces are lying empty but we have no access to them. If say 90% of the barriers and restrictions were removed tomorrow then the need for Aires would be very limited Rob. And your idea for filling/ emptying stations would be fine.
> But sadly Rob I was dreaming when I dreamt up the example I just gave, it’s pie in the sky, it’s what the Viking’s called Valhalla.
> Yes Rob, your idea would give us somewhere to empty our toilets and get freshwater, but it would do nothing to improve the lack of places where we can stay Rob. What’s needed is change, but what’s up for debate is what needs to change, and there’s were our differences lay.
> 16,000 vans were registered last year, Hymer, Carthago, Chausson, Adria, and others are building larger factories to build even more.



It doesn't matter what I say Bill so I wouldn't take much notice.

I can kick and scream to my hearts content about the right to roam and my hopes for wildcamping - the world marches on. If that is the future though - ie, camping on Aires (sites) then it won't be for me. I will switch to B&B's for holidays with Julie, tents and the motorcycle for true wildcamping and the boat for the nearest thing I can get to wildcamping in a campervan.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> It doesn't matter what I say Bill so I wouldn't take much notice.
> 
> I can kick and scream to my hearts content about the right to roam and my hopes for wildcamping - the world marches on. If that is the future though - ie, camping on Aires (sites) then it won't be for me. I will switch to B&B's for holidays with Julie, tents and the motorcycle for true wildcamping and the boat for the nearest thing I can get to wildcamping in a campervan.


Its possible Rob, that these Aires will help take pressure of towns and village areas that are being overused. Aires will also take pressure of the type of locations in rural areas that we both enjoy. But bottom line Rob, we must somehow increase the amount of places where we can park up. There are three ways to do that. Build Aires, remove the restrictions, or a combination of both.
B&Bs, you would be banned from here


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> You're getting to be a bit of a flossiffer Wully!


Does that mean Wully flosses his teef


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## st3v3 (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> the creation of Aires all over the place, then wildcampers will be ushered onto them by the powers that be.



I think you're right, they'll try. However, much like our Irish accented friends who are provided sites, people won't use it on the whole. The price and location have to be right which would make it a loser from a business point of view, so it just won't happen. We don't have the vast open green spaces they do en France.

Your suggestion of a small charge dump/refill site is IMO the perfect solution, and then let people park wherever the hell they like. After all, the reason we currently can't is toilet waste on the carpark etc....



Wully said:


> Man with one chopstick go hungry.



Man who go to sleep with itchy bum wake up with smelly finger.



Fisherman said:


> If say 90% of the barriers and restrictions were removed tomorrow



See my first point ref Irish accented....

There needs to be a huge law change that enables the immediate removal of anyone who stays longer than 48hrs on penalty of death. That solves literally everything and for some bizarre reason just won't happen.

I should add I feel that's as important for the full timer types as much as anyone.


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## Fisherman (Nov 3, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I think you're right, they'll try. However, much like our Irish accented friends who are provided sites, people won't use it on the whole. The price and location have to be right which would make it a loser from a business point of view, so it just won't happen. We don't have the vast open green spaces they do en France.
> 
> Your suggestion of a small charge dump/refill site is IMO the perfect solution, and then let people park wherever the hell they like. After all, the reason we currently can't is toilet waste on the carpark etc....
> 
> ...


And there’s the rub, yes we need people to think differently towards us, open up most of the carparks, but will this happen with councils festooned with people who don’t seem to like us, who reckon we are freeloaders who add little to local economies, whilst not applying these standards to anyone else. Will all of that happen, I doubt It. But we need more places to park. It’s a conundrum worthy of good debate, open minds, but most importantly pragmatism.


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## trevskoda (Nov 3, 2021)

Robmac said:


> That doesn't bother me Brian. There are people on the forums that don't even have a motorhome. Anybody is allowed within reason.
> 
> I do get where you are coming from though when discussions on a Wildcamping forum could possibly (and it's an opinion not a statement of fact), damage what the forum is essentially about. However, forums do evolve as does everything else unfortunately, so we may have to reluctantly move with the times!


Even me, mind you camping in your day was tough.


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## st3v3 (Nov 3, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> but will this happen with councils festooned with people who don’t seem to like us,



I think the number of these type of people has been hugely over-stated. Mostly by councillors who own campsites. Oh, and the press. Don't forget the press...

I really try and talk to people whenever we go anywhere and have never had any negative.


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2021)

st3v3 said:


> I think the number of these type of people has been hugely over-stated. Mostly by councillors who own campsites. Oh, and the press. Don't forget the press...
> 
> I really try and talk to people whenever we go anywhere and have never had any negative.


Well for me the press are are biggest problem, they influence the public and councillors are merely members of the public who are also influenced by that same media. Then as you say campsite owners play their part with their anecdotal evidence regarding poor behaviour from us which as Tom has highlighted is rarely verified.
It’s unlikely that when talking to us that you will get an honest reply, they are unlikely to be frank when confronted by one of us personally. I have only twice met any hostility.
Bottom line if we were popular with local councils or even tolerated more then thousands of carparks that are denied to us would be available.
Also councillors are understandably sensitive to the opinions of their constituents, and the more vociferous constituents tend not to take kindly to motorhomes parked in their areas. This all ads up to councils that have a bias against us in most areas. Hopefully this will improve in years to come.


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Even me, mind you camping in your day was tough.View attachment 103292



Looks like the CCC were right after all Trev, wild camping is generally not tolerated in the U.K., is that you Trev to the right on horseback swinging your rifle in the air.


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## alcam (Nov 4, 2021)

brian c said:


> Thread 32. 33not sure about the pure enough.   What has my opinion to do with pure.    To me if you have a motorhome and you use aires  pub parks  car parks etc you are a motorhome forum person.  If you have a motorhome and ,to use the expression wild camp then you are a wild camping forum person. This is why I asked people’s opinions of what they define wild camping as.  So I may learn that my opinions may be right or need changing.   Not to be pure  judgemental etc.  This is my opinion  and I am not judging people by what they do   Or say.  It is starting to appear that if you have a different opinion to someone you are opening the door to attacks    My opinion. Brian


Not sure if anyone has actually attacked you ?
But you do come over as a bit puritanical/fundamentalist ? Which , of course , you are perfectly entitled to do .
I think the term is very flexible . The centre of Paris or Barcelona can be pretty wild


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## Fisherman (Nov 4, 2021)

alcam said:


> Not sure if anyone has actually attacked you ?
> But you do come over as a bit puritanical/fundamentalist ? Which , of course , you are perfectly entitled to do .
> I think the term is very flexible . The centre of Paris or Barcelona can be pretty wild


It’s the way we communicate online. No facial expressions, subtle changes of tone, or any body language. Just words written down that are easily misinterpreted sometimes.


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## peter palance (Nov 6, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Sleeping overnight due to being tired is legal in the highway code, but wildcamping is not unless permission from land owner, so nothing outside van and you are ok on places with no yellow lines or legal sineage.


hope you are ready for this. cold nites are on the way- side. rite orr wrong.get your long johnns out, or you will have a cold butt. stay safe. ok.pj


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## peter palance (Nov 6, 2021)

Robmac said:


> I don't think we will know for a couple of years Brian, but my fear is that the locals attitude to wildcampers will be "We pay all of this money to provide Aires and they freeload in laybys...". Then they will put pressure on councils to enforce, which in my case will be making me pay for something which I probably don't want ie. a campsite!
> 
> I may be wrong and it may seem irrational to some, but I am a cynic by nature and deeply suspicious of the motives of councils.


bee-ing you are a cynic and deeply suspicious. i will let you move on to the next aire--y,all things be-ing . not to wild-camp. moving movingmoving. ok.pj


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## martinmartin (Nov 7, 2021)

Peter, l cannot make head nor tail of what you say unless l read it as spoken like Frazer off Dads Army,just read the whole thread though and it looks like we're all doomed.


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## trevskoda (Nov 7, 2021)

martinmartin said:


> Peter, l cannot make head nor tail of what you say unless l read it as spoken like Frazer off Dads Army,just read the whole thread though and it looks like we're all doomed.


Trained at Bletchley hall.


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## martinmartin (Nov 7, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Trained at Bletchley hall.


After decoding that it reads farty towers.


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## trevskoda (Nov 7, 2021)

martinmartin said:


> After decoding that it reads farty towers.


Piggy on the roof.


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## MrSoapsud (Nov 9, 2021)

Fancy that - some local camp site owners are not impressed with the Gywnedd Aires proposal - https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/gwynedd-plan-tackle-campervan-motorhome-22102978
They're concerned that they'll lose business and since we all paid over £40k for our motorhomes (!) we can afford £20+ per night for all the facilities (and screaming kids) of a "proper" camp site! That's even after most of them were booked up solid all summer, but that's ok because we can plan ahead and book in advance apparently! At least one of the site owners (who also has a MH) is in favour and made some sensible remarks.


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## RichardHelen262 (Nov 9, 2021)

Why don’t these campsite owners understand the reason I bought a motorhome is so that I don’t need to use a campsite, 
If I only had the option of using campsites all the time then I would sell the motorhome and go back to package holidays abroad.
So trying to stop us using alternative places isn’t going to force me into using campsites.


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Nov 9, 2021)

I would encourage folk to read the comments: probably 40% are positive and some of the negative ones show a complete lack of understanding.
To quote Tony Blair "Education, education, education"!

Gordon


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## GreggBear (Nov 9, 2021)

So even though these sites were booked to capacity last year, they still don't want people to be allowed to park anywhere else. How greedy are they? Surely, fully booked is as good as it gets, these people's input should be ignored when making the decision as they are obviously motivated by greed. As for " people who spend 40k on a motorhome should be able to afford to stay on a site", I'm so fed up of hearing that. My bus cost nowhere near that figure to build, but even if it had I built it so that I wouldn't need to use facilities provided for me as I'm self sufficient. I wouldn't want to use sites if they were free, I get away in my bus to get away from other people & their noise & nasty habits. As for us parking"where we have no legal right to be" as long as my vehicle is road legal I have every right to park in most laybys & streets, surely a carpark is preferable to outside someone's house
 I read an article this week that implied I have no legal right to stop people parking on my private drive, yet I'm threatened with being moved on from perfectly legal public carparks with no access or obstruction issues. This country is a beautiful place, but sadly the authorities that seem to think they should own every square inch of it are all without exception, rotten to the core....


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## trevskoda (Nov 9, 2021)

If campsite owners had one ounce of sense they could be letting in and charging a small fee of about £5 to let folk empty cassettes and refill water tanks, I for one don't require a happy holiday all sing and dance site, I go away to get away from the madding crowd of ice cream and lolly sucking morons.


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## barryd (Nov 9, 2021)

There was a similar shared post on the "NC500 the land weeps" Facebook group yesterday from a campsite up there concerned about losing business to Aires, car parks etc.  You have to be a member to see it I think but this was the original from the site itself.









						Dornoch Caravan and Camping Park
					

Dornoch Caravan and Camping Park. 4,156 likes · 373 talking about this · 2,474 were here. Welcome to Dornoch Caravan and Camping Park! We are a family run caravan and camping park located in...




					www.facebook.com
				




As said above. Everything has changed. Even if you wanted to get on a site in peak season (I dont) then often they are full.  

I keep saying this but its high time the rules were relaxed so farmers etc can just set up their own fields and put twenty or thirty vans on like they do in many parts of Europe. First come first served, no booking required.


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## Fisherman (Nov 9, 2021)

As I have stated before there will be resistance to aires by some, hence why I am not shocked at reading this.
Quite frankly if I looked at the land weeps Facebook forum, my blood pressure would go off the scale.
The arrogance of these people is only matched by their naive stupidity.
We did not create the NC500, but we seemed to be blamed for most of what's wrong with it.
 I would be shocked if the campsite owners were not either involved, or welcomed its inception.
Also we make up only a small proportion of those travelling the NC500, the majority do so in cars.
And apparently when we are in carparks built and maintained with our taxes we are not in campsites, so give us your road tax, fuel duty, Vat, but don't use what you have paid for, because the campsite owners who's sites are full don’t like us not using their campsites. 
But many of  those in cars stay in hotels, and B&Bs, spend more on food etc, so they are more welcome.
Its a case of give us your money, but you are not welcome.
These are the same people who will quote anecdotal evidence of toilet waste being dumped,
whilst resisting the installation of chemical waste points, and aires.
As for campsite owners they refuse to offer their facilities for a set fee, even though they are fully booked weeks in advance.
Its as if some folk are never happy unless they have something to complain about,
hence their resistance to measures that would go a long way to alleviating the very issues they love to complain about.
And think on this one, I would be shocked if none on that forum where not involved in local politics.


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## trevskoda (Nov 9, 2021)

They keep stating caravan sites, we dont have caravans so sites not required, what part of that do the site owners not get.


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## barryd (Nov 10, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> As I have stated before there will be resistance to aires by some, hence why I am not shocked at reading this.
> Quite frankly if I looked at the land weeps Facebook forum, my blood pressure would go off the scale.
> The arrogance of these people is only matched by their naive stupidity.
> We did not create the NC500, but we seemed to be blamed for most of what's wrong with it.
> ...



I joined that depressing group just to try and put forward as diplomatically as possible our point of view and add a bit of balance but I hardly post there now.  The internet and social media seldom tells you much about the poster but ill bet that a fair chunk of the complainers in that group are retired wealthy folk from England. Just a hunch.  It would be interesting to hear from any of our members who have done bits of the NC500 this year to try and establish if its really been as bad as that group claims.  

From what I Can tell from the attitude of many of them is they just think there are too many tourists and they dont want them. I do wonder though if this group is not truly representative of the majority of the community.


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## GeoffL (Nov 10, 2021)

barryd said:


> There was a similar shared post on the "NC500 the land weeps" Facebook group yesterday from a campsite up there concerned about losing business to Aires, car parks etc.  You have to be a member to see it I think but this was the original from the site itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The proprietors of Dornoch are moaning that someone wants to create an aire in the car park 200 yards from their boundary. However, that car park is only big enough for perhaps 5 motorhomes and so hardly stands to rob them of custom. For that, Dornoch offer a 'pump and dump' service for £11 and so the aire only needs to be a car park with a sign directing people to the caravan park for waste and water facilities. An aire might actually benefit them by directing motorhomers to their service point.


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## Fisherman (Nov 10, 2021)

barryd said:


> I joined that depressing group just to try and put forward as diplomatically as possible our point of view and add a bit of balance but I hardly post there now.  The internet and social media seldom tells you much about the poster but ill bet that a fair chunk of the complainers in that group are retired wealthy folk from England. Just a hunch.  It would be interesting to hear from any of our members who have done bits of the NC500 this year to try and establish if its really been as bad as that group claims.
> 
> From what I Can tell from the attitude of many of them is they just think there are too many tourists and they dont want them. I do wonder though if this group is not truly representative of the majority of the community.


Sadly some people don't know how to debate or discuss with folk they don't agree with.
And Social media has created platforms full of narrow minded people with their own agendas.
All they want to do is make their point without taking into consideration that the world does not revolve around them.
I actually prefer discussion with folk who don't agree with myself, that way I may just learn something. (And I have done so)
I get on with many on here who I don't agree with, but I have nothing but respect for.

Yes of course I have some sympathy for people living on the NC500 route.
Many of them will have seen massive changes from the past prior to this route being formed.
But the NC500 cannot be uninvented, its here to stay, and measures need to be taken to alleviate as much as possible
the concerns of local people, whilst providing us and others with the facilities that we need.
And thats the reality of the situation.
People who seek to prevent such measures from taking place, are the largest problem we have up there.
When you read such idiocies from one of their MPs talking about charging us alone for driving on their roads, its cringeworthy.
What's needed are people with intelligence and foresight to mitigate what we and others create up there, not folk who have lost reality.
Or even worse an MP who is only seeking to harvest public support for his own ends.
Also we are not the main problem up there, this biased reporting has to stop.


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## GreggBear (Nov 10, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> The proprietors of Dornoch are moaning that someone wants to create an aire in the car park 200 yards from their boundary. However, that car park is only big enough for perhaps 5 motorhomes and so hardly stands to rob them of custom. For that, Dornoch offer a 'pump and dump' service for £11 and so the aire only needs to be a car park with a sign directing people to the caravan park for waste and water facilities. An aire might actually benefit them by directing motorhomers to their service point.


Wouldn't benefit them by my trade at 11 quid a pop....


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## Fisherman (Nov 10, 2021)

GreggBear said:


> Wouldn't benefit them by my trade at 11 quid a pop....


£5 max £11 is a total rip off.


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## GreggBear (Nov 10, 2021)

Says it all really.....


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Nov 10, 2021)

£11!

They are having a laugh.

Gordon


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## GeoffL (Nov 10, 2021)

While I agree that £11 is too much, it's only £1 more than I'd be content to pay. Anyway, noting that they'd turned off comments for hoi polloi like me, I sent the following by email:

_Good Morning,

It is with some dismay that I read about your petition against motorhome aires to serve the NC500. To me, this seems exceedingly shortsighted of you for the following reasons:_

_Campsites and aires serve very different sorts of tourists. Those who want to principally use aires usually dislike formal campsites (aka "tin tent ghettos")._
_Many motorhomers who use aires are pensioners on extended tours of over a month and even at £27 a night (with EHU), campsite fees are unaffordable. So what happens is that motorhomers (including me) are effectively driven away from an area only serviced by campsites. For example, my MO is typically to stop over at a campsite every three or four nights just to dispose of black and grey waste and refill my fresh water tanks -- but without aires or the opportunity to wild camp between those stops, I'm never going to use your campsite. IOW, your shortsightedness could actually reduce your potential business._
_In the same vein, I note that you offer a 'pump and dump' service and so could legitimately object to the inclusion of a service point within the aire proposed close to your boundary. However, were that aire to include a sign directing users to your service point, that aire would almost certainly increase rather than reduce your business -- even when every one of your pitches is occupied._
_Looking at Google Maps, that car park probably isn't even big enough for five motorhome spaces and so isn't going to present real competition for you; certainly not sufficiently to offset the potential it has to increase your business in the ways mentioned above._
_I sincerely hope that you'll think again about the stance you've taken on this matter. That said, it'll only affect me if you do change your mind because I don't go where I'm not welcomed and, currently, Dornoch definitely falls into that category.

Best regards,_


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## barryd (Nov 10, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> The proprietors of Dornoch are moaning that someone wants to create an aire in the car park 200 yards from their boundary. However, that car park is only big enough for perhaps 5 motorhomes and so hardly stands to rob them of custom. For that, Dornoch offer a 'pump and dump' service for £11 and so the aire only needs to be a car park with a sign directing people to the caravan park for waste and water facilities. An aire might actually benefit them by directing motorhomers to their service point.



£11!!!  They moan about people emptying grey water on the roads or worse and "stealing" water from cemetery's etc and have the cheek to charge £11 for a single empty and fill.   I paid less than that for a pitch on a CL with electric near the Mull of Galloway in September.

It makes no sense at all.  Nobody is going to pay that unless they are really desperate.  A fiver maybe but even that is pushing it IMO but I suspect they would get a steady flow of vans and at least some income from the Aire and passing motorhomes.  Maybe they are thinking if we make it that expensive people will just say we may as well pay £27 and stay on the site. Personally I wouldnt do either and "jog on"


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## Fisherman (Nov 10, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> While I agree that £11 is too much, it's only £1 more than I'd be content to pay. Anyway, noting that they'd turned off comments for hoi polloi like me, I sent the following by email:
> 
> _Good Morning,
> 
> ...


Good post Geoff but £10 to empty your toilet is sheer robbery.
The CCC offer three hours on some of their sites to members where you can also shower for around £7.


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## MrSoapsud (Nov 10, 2021)

Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266
Martin


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## GeoffL (Nov 10, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Good post Geoff but £10 to empty your toilet is sheer robbery.
> The CCC offer three hours on some of their sites to members where you can also shower for around £7.


FWIW, I didn't say that £10 wasn't excessive -- just that it was the maximum I'd be content to pay (i.e. more than that and I'm probably looking for a public WC or moving out of the area). That said, baby steps -- we've first got to convince these people that aires can actually increase their business by making their region more attractive and hence they are more likely to benefit from "service stopovers" -- and particularly so if they offer a non-residential service point.



MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266
> Martin


With regret, I notice the continued assumption that motorhomes are a 'problem'


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## Fisherman (Nov 10, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266
> Martin


It seems that the penny has dropped, but I don’t see myself as a problem. I am a 66 year old man who after working for 50 years, paying all of my taxes and still paying taxes decided to buy a Motorhome where I paid even more taxes in buying and maintaining my Motorhome. I thought criminals, terrorists,  anti social louts were problems, not hard working folks in the winter of their lives wanting to enjoy what time they have left to the max.


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## Debroos (Nov 10, 2021)

MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266 Martin





MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266 Martin





MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266 Martin





MrSoapsud said:


> Latest article on this in the "local" press: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-aires-approved-gwynedd-tackle-22116266
> Martin


Where do they get this pervasive idea that motorhomes spend nothing when visiting an area? Drives me nuts.


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## Robmac (Nov 10, 2021)

Taking a couple of statements from the article says it all for me;

"Cllr Gareth Thomas, who holds the economic development brief, said that the aim was to divert motorhome owners away from road verges and secluded beauty spots"

and;

Cllr Dafydd Meurig added it was vital that motorhome owners were welcomed to Gwynedd “on our own terms,” and would give the authority “more scope to divert them away from where they shouldn’t be.”

and; 

“It's clear that their needs are basic compared to what a caravan site offers, but its clear that we need a solution as well as stricter enforcement in the long term.”

Pretty much confirms my worst fears about the agenda here!


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## maingate (Nov 10, 2021)

Debroos said:


> Where do they get this pervasive idea that motorhomes spend nothing when visiting an area? Drives me nuts.


Are you certain of your facts?

If you read the replies by posters on here then we do spend money while away in our vans. It is worth remembering that the regular posters on this forum are just a tiny minority of the membership. The vast majority do not post and so we have no idea of their habits. There are even non members who lurk on here and glean useful information free of charge.

Then there are the van owners who never go near forums, have no worries about where they park up and behave badly. That is why nearly all coastal areas have restrictions and/or height barriers. We have all read the horror stories about lines of motorhomes on Promenades and the owners behaving badly.

I have seen enough bad and thoughtless behaviour to believe that it is not a tiny minority, it is bigger than that. Strangely enough the 'spend nowt' brigade often do have the newest and biggest motorhomes. I have spoken to enough of both types to see that they seem to think they are doing nothing wrong. It seems to be the way of the world these days where nobody considers their actions or the results of such actions. It used to make me angry but I now accept that it is not intentional bad manners, it is done unconciously, a common trend in all walks of life these days.


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## mistericeman (Nov 10, 2021)

To be honest I'm growing weary of reading all the doom and gloom both on Facebook and on forums (including on here) 
It's getting very repetitive with the same posts about the same negativity.... 
I try desperately not to read it or at the very least absorb it.... 

BUT I'm getting to the point of stopping using Facebook and forums and just going back heading off and keeping my head down.... 
Yes there are idiots in all walks of life (though to be fair I've met very few in real life... Though I do studiously avoid folks as much as possible) 

Time to head off back to the real world for me I reckon.


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## trevskoda (Nov 10, 2021)

Just me folk everywhere, once a while back at Antrim hospital a chap in a big 4/4 came into carpark and stopped at bottom on a one way ring blocking me and about 3 cars behind, let the wife out but started to have a fag and feck everyone else trying to get on round and either park or exit, horns started to hoot and of course I got the one finger salute, I shouted out to him on the problem but no movement, next I spied the parking enforcement man heading over, some f ing and fist waving before he shot off to find a proper space, I parked two or 3 spaces away only to get the normal crap of il have you done scumbag, this is what normal folk are up against.


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## caledonia (Nov 10, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> To be honest I'm growing weary of reading all the doom and gloom both on Facebook and on forums (including on here)
> It's getting very repetitive with the same posts about the same negativity....
> I try desperately not to read it or at the very least absorb it....
> 
> ...


I think that’s the right attitude. Don’t give a monkeys about what other people are doing and just get out and enjoy what your doing. Still plenty places out there if you know where to look.


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## trevskoda (Nov 10, 2021)

Problem is there ar too many m homes sold in the last few years, two have landed in driveways at the top of my street, and nearly every street has at least one these days.


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## Wully (Nov 10, 2021)

That’ll be  all the stolen ones from over here  they ended up at the top of Trevs street


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Wully said:


> That’ll be  all the stolen ones from over here  they ended up at the top of Trevs street


Beats working.


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## barge1914 (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Good post Geoff but £10 to empty your toilet is sheer robbery.
> The CCC offer three hours on some of their sites to members where you can also shower for around £7.


I used the dump point at Dornoch in October, it was actually £7.


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> I used the dump point at Dornoch in October, it was actually £7.


Check out post 86, and subsequent posts. I have never been to Dornoch.
But for what it’s worth, I reckon that’s £2 to much. They should be encouraging people to use this facility not ripping them off.


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Nov 11, 2021)

I visited Dornoch a few years ago: lovely views, peaceful, quiet but several folk coming and going. I got talking to an "oldish" woman who was touring Scotland (as she does every year) in an estate car with a mattress in the back and had spent the night in the carpark. Obviously, no facilities. However, presumably she would be welcome .

Gordon


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Nov 11, 2021)

maingate said:


> Are you certain of your facts?
> 
> If you read the replies by posters on here then we do spend money while away in our vans.



I certainly spend money whilst away in my van BUT I rarely (if ever) go to restaurants. BUT I don't do that at home neither.

I buy fuel and food, despite carrying some with me: I guess that I bring back as many tins as I take and often buy dry goods as we go along. I replenish my alcohol supplies and I purchase far more "coffee & cakes" than I would if not travelling. I visit museums and other tourist attractions whereas at home I have season tickets for places which I frequent. I cannot imagine that very many folk have sufficient supplies to last an entire week, let alone a month: perhaps those who go for weekends can be self-sufficient.

When abroad we almost invariably buy things from itinerant suppliers who bring bread & pastries, fruit & vegetables, wines & beers. I don't recall meeting such entrepreneurs in UK.

So I would say *yes*: the vast majority of motorhomers will contribute to the economy of the places they visit. Hopefully, like me, they also donate to honesty box schemes to pay for overnight parking.

Gordon


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## alcam (Nov 11, 2021)

maingate said:


> Are you certain of your facts?
> 
> If you read the replies by posters on here then we do spend money while away in our vans. It is worth remembering that the regular posters on this forum are just a tiny minority of the membership. The vast majority do not post and so we have no idea of their habits. There are even non members who lurk on here and glean useful information free of charge.
> 
> ...


Sadly I think you are correct regarding general behaviour
As far as spending goes it appears to me , I think logically , people on campsites spend less in the community than those who are 'parked up'. 
Think it applies to hotels v. self catering too


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> I visited Dornoch a few years ago: lovely views, peaceful, quiet but several folk coming and going. I got talking to an "oldish" woman who was touring Scotland (as she does every year) in an estate car with a mattress in the back and had spent the night in the carpark. Obviously, no facilities. However, presumably she would be welcome .
> 
> Gordon


What happens if she got caught short in the night.


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## GeoffL (Nov 11, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> I used the dump point at Dornoch in October, it was actually £7.


I got that £11 fee from their 2022 tariff page: http://dornochcaravans.co.uk/index.php?id=tariff


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> I got that £11 fee from their 2022 tariff page: http://dornochcaravans.co.uk/index.php?id=tariff


Thanks Geoff, these folk are rip of merchants. £11 to empty a cassette, and refill water is scandalous. When we go to Arran it’s free, but we always put a fiver in their donation (not honesty) box. I suppose if you are desperate you may well just have to pay it. But some won’t, and we all know what this may lead to.


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> I certainly spend money whilst away in my van BUT I rarely (if ever) go to restaurants. BUT I don't do that at home neither.
> 
> I buy fuel and food, despite carrying some with me: I guess that I bring back as many tins as I take and often buy dry goods as we go along. I replenish my alcohol supplies and I purchase far more "coffee & cakes" than I would if not travelling. I visit museums and other tourist attractions whereas at home I have season tickets for places which I frequent. I cannot imagine that very many folk have sufficient supplies to last an entire week, let alone a month: perhaps those who go for weekends can be self-sufficient.
> 
> ...


Fife council carried out an extensive survey on Motorhome use and the benefits of motorhomes to local communities. The report stated that motorhomes added and helped local economies. But in a way I kind of resent having to justify my existence as a Motorhome owner based on wether or not I spend enough wherever I travel. No other group has this burden placed upon them.


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## Val54 (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Fife council carried out an extensive survey on Motorhome use and the benefits of motorhomes to local communities. The report stated that motorhomes added and helped local economies. But in a way I kind of resent having to justify my existence as a Motorhome owner based on wether or not I spend enough wherever I travel. No other group has this burden placed upon them.


You could equally ask how much those travelling with all inclusive coach tours (Shearings etc) actually spend on top of the discounted hotel rate, not a lot I suspect, apart from coffees and ice creams .


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## Jo001 (Nov 11, 2021)

Val54 said:


> You could equally ask how much those travelling with all inclusive coach tours (Shearings etc) actually spend on top of the discounted hotel rate, not a lot I suspect, apart from coffees and ice creams .


Out of curiosity, a lot of these coaches have on board toilet facilities, so where do they empty them?


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

Val54 said:


> You could equally ask how much those travelling with all inclusive coach tours (Shearings etc) actually spend on top of the discounted hotel rate, not a lot I suspect, apart from coffees and ice creams .


Your not playing fair here Val. You know the rules. If you see a Motorhome expect them to litter, empty their cassette in the local duck pond and spend nothing. Give yourself a good talking to.


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## alcam (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Fife council carried out an extensive survey on Motorhome use and the benefits of motorhomes to local communities. The report stated that motorhomes added and helped local economies. But in a way I kind of resent having to justify my existence as a Motorhome owner based on wether or not I spend enough wherever I travel. No other group has this burden placed upon them.


If it helps the argument , as it does , I'm sure we can live with it . Interesting , as a comparison , to see analysis of other modes of tourism


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## Norfolk NewBoy (Nov 11, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> What happens if she got caught short in the night.


What happens if she gets caught short during the day?

She was coming back from the beach when I spoke to her. She told me that she digs a hole and buries her waste.

Interestingly, I had called in at  the Tourist Centre/carpark just south of Inverness on my way up to the north coast. I asked if I could empty my cassette in the toilets there. Initially I was told no, as the septic tank wouldn't cope with the chemicals. I explained that I didn't use chemicals so I was told no I couldn't because the toilets "belonged" to a different organisation and so they couldn't give permission. I asked what they would do if I just emptied in there and the answer was "please don't do it". They then offered me a leaflet on disposing of human waste by digging holes in the ground, specifying a minimum depth and advising on the replacement of soil: I would be allowed to do that in the adjacent woods (I didn't).

When touring I carry two cassettes and I would have to be pretty desperate to pay £11 to empty them. I do eke out their potential by using sealable plastic milk-bottles for urine, emptying those discreetly onto waste land when it is appropriate (and usually dark).

Gordon


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

alcam said:


> If it helps the argument , as it does , I'm sure we can live with it . Interesting , as a comparison , to see analysis of other modes of tourism


Of course I can live with it, and I applaud Fife Council for what they have done.
But the question remains why are we alone expected to support local areas we visit.
No other group are burdened with this, whilst receiving unfavourable coverage from all sections of the media, local politicians, and some locals.

Fife council made efforts to attempt to identify different types of vans, their requirements, and the benefits they offer.
And there have been problems both in the past and currently within the region involving us, through over occupancy.
I wrote to them in the summer thanking them for their efforts, and attempted to explain what went wrong at Elie, and Kingsbarns.
It was the perfect storm, end of covid, good weather, and many of us wishing to see the new set up with overnight stop over places.
I got a reply stating that Fife Council valued our community and had no intention of bringing down the barriers.
However they did indicate that they continued to monitor what was going on.



			https://d1ssu070pg2v9i.cloudfront.net/pex/fcct/2020/01/07105859/Freedom-Camping-Options-Paper-on-Motorhome-Use-in-Fife.pdf


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## barryd (Nov 11, 2021)

I suppose you could argue that nobody whether in a motorhome, car or on foot owes anyone a living in the places we visit.  The countryside, towns and villages belong to us all.  I live in a tourist area and if people want to come to Barnard Castle or Richmond for the day and bring a packed lunch and spend nothing I have no problem with that. Some will spend some won't but I don't hear calls from angry locals to ban day trippers with a picnic.

It should also be remembered that a lot of us tour for months on end. You can't really do that without spending something and it mounts up. Well north of £1000 a month I find here. A bit less in Europe.


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Jo001 said:


> Out of curiosity, a lot of these coaches have on board toilet facilities, so where do they empty them?


At their competitors postbox at night.


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Of course I can live with it, and I applaud Fife Council for what they have done.
> But the question remains why are we alone expected to support local areas we visit.
> No other group are burdened with this, whilst receiving unfavourable coverage from all sections of the media, local politicians, and some locals.
> 
> ...


I note they keep referring it to freedom camping when in fact I see it as resting from a long drive, rule 91 h way code, I may require a few naps to be sure.


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## barge1914 (Nov 11, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> I got that £11 fee from their 2022 tariff page: http://dornochcaravans.co.uk/index.php?id=tariff


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## barge1914 (Nov 11, 2021)

A 57% rise! I wonder if this is also one of those sites that got council money to make their services available to passing mohos.


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> A 57% rise! I wonder if this is also one of those sites that got council money to make their services available to passing mohos.


If so then the council should be asking for our money back.
£11 is an utter disgrace, shameful money grabbing of the very worse kind.


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> If so then the council should be asking for our money back.
> £11 is an utter disgrace, shameful money grabbing of the very worse kind.


If they offered free coffee look at the WEE return they would get.


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## Fisherman (Nov 11, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> If they offered free coffee look at the WEE return they would get.


Don’t fancy a coffee after emptying the cassette Trev.


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## trevskoda (Nov 11, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Don’t fancy a coffee after emptying the cassette Trev.


They could give you it before hand, so 2 coffers £3- empty cassette £11, 8 bucks profit.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 11, 2021)

alcam said:


> If it helps the argument , as it does , I'm sure we can live with it . Interesting , as a comparison , to see analysis of other modes of tourism



Not sure if you've seen the attached.

_Motorhomes and Wildcamping_.   I'm fairly certain I published it when the council sent it to me but it's worth keeping a library of such documents.  Some will remember that I was in touch with the Highlands Council - about Dornoch - not all that long ago and it was for that reason that I was sent it.


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## alcam (Nov 12, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Of course I can live with it, and I applaud Fife Council for what they have done.
> But the question remains why are we alone expected to support local areas we visit.
> No other group are burdened with this, whilst receiving unfavourable coverage from all sections of the media, local politicians, and some locals.
> 
> ...


Don't see it as a burden more a confirmation of our value to businesses
There are loads of surveys done analysing visitors spending patterns , value to local economy etc . 
When I do , occasionally , stay on campsites I'm always amazed at the amount of people who appear to spend the whole day there . Same applies to hotels 
Lots more ammo for us


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## Fisherman (Nov 12, 2021)

alcam said:


> Don't see it as a burden more a confirmation of our value to businesses
> There are loads of surveys done analysing visitors spending patterns , value to local economy etc .
> When I do , occasionally , stay on campsites I'm always amazed at the amount of people who appear to spend the whole day there . Same applies to hotels
> Lots more ammo for us


Did you see the thread on Lochore were a councillor based most of his biased bigoted assertions on that very basis.
Personally I don't feel burdened, but as a group we alone are burdened with some responsibility to spend locally.
No other group are assessed the way we are, its not us that have created this burden, its folk who seek to justify and back up their narrow minded
il informed attitudes towards us. Even Fife council who have been excellent are looking for some return from us, they don't seek quite the same return from anyone else, and don't facilitate the requirements of others on that same basis.


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## alcam (Nov 12, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Did you see the thread on Lochore were a councillor based most of his biased bigoted assertions on that very basis.
> Personally I don't feel burdened, but as a group we alone are burdened with some responsibility to spend locally.
> No other group are assessed the way we are, its not us that have created this burden, its folk who seek to justify and back up their narrow minded
> il informed attitudes towards us. Even Fife council who have been excellent are looking for some return from us, they don't seek quite the same return from anyone else, and don't facilitate the requirements of others on that same basis.


In general we are a mystery to most people . They seem to think we must get up to all sorts of things in our vans ! Probably correctly in some cases .
But , as I said , this kind of analysis is done all the time . Our mode of travel and accomodation will , maybe understandably , appear to be a total freebie to the untrained eye . So , on reflection , it could be our spending patterns being assessed is a good thing
[forget about Lochore Dick , nowt you can do about somebody like that]


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## Fisherman (Nov 12, 2021)

alcam said:


> In general we are a mystery to most people . They seem to think we must get up to all sorts of things in our vans ! Probably correctly in some cases .
> But , as I said , this kind of analysis is done all the time . Our mode of travel and accomodation will , maybe understandably , appear to be a total freebie to the untrained eye . So , on reflection , it could be our spending patterns being assessed is a good thing
> [forget about Lochore Dick , nowt you can do about somebody like that]


I know where you are coming from, and yes I agree that if these types of reports enlighten the great unwashed, then that’s a good thing. But my point is why are we alone only catered for if we are commercially viable. Many other groups are catered for without such a requirement.
Also whilst I found the actions of Tom Kinnaird at Lochore appalling, he did highlight what many of us suspected for years, that many in local politics are no more intelligent than your average chimp. I think it’s important not to forget about him, but to remind us what we are up against. But thankfully we are in total agreement about one thing, he’s a dick.
Oh and apologies to all Chimps.


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## trevskoda (Nov 12, 2021)

Thats an insult to chimps.


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## GeoffL (Nov 12, 2021)

We face a unique problem regarding public perception in that we are visible (unless in a 'stealth' van) and so get blamed for much of what is perceived as tourism-related wrongdoing no matter who actually performs those misdeeds and hence have become a target on which to focus their ire. Unlike other tourists, we are a "problem" that's relatively easy to banish -- and so authorities can appear to do something without actually addressing the real issue. It also doesn't help that the population in general has been goaded into "us-vs-them" tribalism.
I agree that we shouldn't forget about Lochore TK -- Cipolla's "Five Basic Laws Of Human Stupidity" helps explain why.


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## Fisherman (Nov 12, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> Thats an insult to chimps.


Sorry Trev.

Sorry Trev I thought you said WHATS an insult to chimps


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