# glow plugs - advice please.



## Herbenny (Nov 16, 2014)

We suspect our van needs new glow plugs as the turn over in the mornings (particularly cold) is a bit hit and miss. 
It seems to chucking out black smoke too.

Although we don't have any clue with mechanics me and my hubby and I are prepared to try and do the job ourselves.

My question is it a difficult job and could someone recommend some decent ones I can order, as I know its pointless paying for cheap ones as no doubt we will just have the same problem in a few months. 

Our van is peuogot boxer 1.9 diesel 2001

Advice please 

Many Thanks


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## Polar Bear (Nov 16, 2014)

Its a bit fiddly, but not too big a job to remove your heater plugs. To test them get jump leads on battery negative terminal to plug body and positive to the end where the nut fits. Look for it glowing, mind you fingers it does get hot, should take seconds to work. 
You could just change the ones not working but they are not too expensive.

PS Can you hear a click when the 'coil' light goes out? Could be a relay?


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## Deleted member 37170 (Nov 16, 2014)

The biggest problem with changing glow plugs is getting them out in one piece. Beware that you use the correct socket size and that you can get a straight line onto them using the minimal length of tool (extensions). The use of extensions for socket sets means that you will invariably get an offset onto the glow plug head and then because the plug has been in the cylinder head for a long time suffering from very hot and very cold conditions they will be virtually welded in. As soon as you try to remove them, the force needed makes the socket squew off at an angle and breaks the head off leaving the heater still in the head with no way to get it out other than the removal of the cylinder head. Very costly. I would seriously recommend you use a mechanic who knows what he is doing.


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## izwozral (Nov 16, 2014)

Had exactly the same problem with my Saab, one glow plug dead so replaced it. Also added some Wynns particulate filter cleaner & replaced the fuel filter to deal with the excessive black sooty smoke. Car is running like a dream now & fires first time. I agree with others, be very careful removing the glow plugs or get a mechanic to do it. Full set of decent plugs should only be £40-£60, Wynns £5-£6 & fuel filter about £15


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## Polar Bear (Nov 16, 2014)

Bopper said:


> The biggest problem with changing glow plugs is getting them out in one piece. Beware that you use the correct socket size and that you can get a straight line onto them using the minimal length of tool (extensions). The use of extensions for socket sets means that you will invariably get an offset onto the glow plug head and then because the plug has been in the cylinder head for a long time suffering from very hot and very cold conditions they will be virtually welded in. As soon as you try to remove them, the force needed makes the socket squew off at an angle and breaks the head off leaving the heater still in the head with no way to get it out other than the removal of the cylinder head. Very costly. I would seriously recommend you use a mechanic who knows what he is doing.



Spot on bopper.

When working on any engine parts could be seized in. Using good quality tools [I only use Snap-on tools] is the key. apply de-seize fluid for an hour before trying to remove the plugs. If you apply a small amount of pressure in a clockwise [tightening] direction [not to much] it sometimes just cracks the rust enough to get them out without damage. If you have any fears at having a go get a proper mechanic to do it [not the lads with no experience you might find in  Kwikprofit or Halfaffords]


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## Wooie1958 (Nov 16, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Spot on bopper.
> 
> When working on any engine parts could be seized in. Using good quality tools [I only use Snap-on tools] is the key. apply de-seize fluid for an hour before trying to remove the plugs. If you apply a small amount of pressure in a clockwise [tightening] direction [not to much] it sometimes just cracks the rust enough to get them out without damage. *If you have any fears at having a go get a proper mechanic to do it [not the lads with no experience you might find in * *Kwikprofit or Halfaffords*]





I`ll second that, it`s not worth " having a go " if your not confident with it.


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## RichardHelen262 (Nov 16, 2014)

As others have said on here they can end up snapping then the only way is to have the cylinder head removed, what most garages are doing now is getting the engine hot before they try to remove them

Richard


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 16, 2014)

not going to lay claim to this info myself  ,as it comes from a pug mechanic 

So its a 1.9D non turbo...If thats the case the glowplugs are at the front of the engine "cylinder head" they will be inline with each injector either above the injector body or below - so you will or should see them as they "all 4" will be or should be linked together with a single glowplug cable that leads back the relay - each glowplug will have small bolt ontop you'll need to remove to get the cable off making sure you don't loose the small bolt..access will be quite restricted somewhat to get the plug out especially around the fuel pump and the filter end as you'll need to remove parts of the intake tubes and the egr unit into the the inlet manifold/ etc to get proper access -

Ideally you'll need to soak the treads between the glowplug and the cylinder head orifice with wd-40 and leave it for a while to soak in sometimes pre-heating the engine up can help also if need be and usually best.then with the correct sized long reach socket"test fit on your new ones" extention/ratchet then slowly undo anti-clockwise till they start to free off / somemaybe a little tight as expected.if whilst removing they become tighter then turn back clockwise and re-soak the threads again and then back anti-clockwise slowly again and keep doing that till they eventually come out fully..Then refitting is basically reversal of removal maybe adding a little copper grease to the threads and screw in each plug by hand first till they seat in the threads properly then tighten each plug with your socket/ratchet or tighten them up till they are tight enough making sure you don't over tighten or you may thread them or the threads in the head..Then re-fit the connections back on the same way they came off with the small bolts till they are reasonably tight...then re-test engine.If your unable to carry out the replacement then i would advise really to have garage replace them if required...


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## sparrks (Nov 16, 2014)

Herbenny said:


> We suspect our van needs new glow plugs as the turn over in the mornings (particularly cold) is a bit hit and miss.
> It seems to chucking out black smoke too.
> 
> Although we don't have any clue with mechanics me and my hubby and I are prepared to try and do the job ourselves.
> ...



Out of interest what do you mean by "_as the turn over in the mornings (particularly cold) is a bit hit and miss_"? In other words what makes you think it is the heater/glow plugs?


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## Polar Bear (Nov 16, 2014)

runnach said:


> WD-40 is a moisture dispersal product. Plus Gas is a better for penetrating areas where threads are seized, or tad tight for removal...



Well spotted


A lot of people think WD40 is the do-all, all singing lubricant. Even though it hardly lubricates at all.

Strange how names of things like this are often thrown into the mix but not correct?

PS; Glow plugs have nuts on the end to hold the wire on and not bolts.


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## Herbenny (Nov 16, 2014)

sparrks said:


> Out of interest what do you mean by "_as the turn over in the mornings (particularly cold) is a bit hit and miss_"? In other words what makes you think it is the heater/glow plugs?



A friend of ours know some basic mechanical knowledge and suggested that it could be this.
It will start after several attempts and if we are lucky enough to 'catch it' if you know what I mean. Alongside the black smoke It all points to the 'glow plugs'. 

Thanks for your advice everyone but I think it might have to go to the garage ...I wouldn't want  to start something we cant finish :sad:


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## Polar Bear (Nov 16, 2014)

Herbenny said:


> A friend of ours know some basic mechanical knowledge and suggested that it could be this.
> It will start after several attempts and if we are lucky enough to 'catch it' if you know what I mean. Alongside the black smoke It all points to the 'glow plugs'.
> 
> Thanks for your advice everyone but I think it might have to go to the garage ...I wouldn't want  to start something we cant finish :sad:



Hi.

Do you see a 'coil' glow plug lamp on the dash and wait until it goes out?

It smokes on start up I would also be inclined to test fuel delivery.
Get a can of spray can of 'brake cleaner' from your local car spares shop do not use easy-start, it's too aggressive - pull pipe off of air cleaner and spray a small amount up pipe as someone tries to start it up.
If it starts straight away you probably have an air leak.


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## dave docwra (Nov 16, 2014)

How long are you waiting after the glow plug lamp extingushes before turning over?


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## barryd (Nov 16, 2014)

I will be interested to see the outcome of this as we have had a similar problem for years.  Tried new glow plugs (twice) and no different. 1996 Peugeot Boxer 2.5TD

when its cold the van starts like a bag of spanners including lots of smoke.  Once its warm or if its a warm day then its fine.

Orange light does come on on the dash and the garage said they tested the plugs and they are fine but I dont reckon they are heating up in thier sockets.

Anyway good luck, hope it works for you.


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## Herbenny (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks Polar bear ...yes we see the coil light and wait for it to go out.
Thank you for your advice will check that out tomorrow.......


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## Tezza33 (Nov 16, 2014)

My old Iveco Daily was the same in cold weather, I used to wait for the light to go out then switch off and start the procedure all over again, glow plugs were working when I removed them for testing, the problem was a couple of things which between them were enough in cold weather, a battery that wasn't 100% and the cold weather made it worse and a starter motor that needed reconditioning, cleaned all the earth points at the same time and it started easy after that


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## eddyt (Nov 16, 2014)

*glow plugs*

you can test the glow plugs easily without removing them. first take the wire off witch joins them up  get a length of wire connect one end to battery positive terminal and touch the other end to each glow plug terminal one at a time if you see a spark as you touch it that plug is drawing current so it is working. If it does not spark or flash the plug is dead. When you unscrew it from the head use a socket with a hexagon six point not a bi hex one so you will not round it off


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## mark61 (Nov 16, 2014)

Not familiar with Fiats, but wouldn't the glow plug light come back on as a tell tale of faulty glow plug?


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## Tezza33 (Nov 16, 2014)

mark61 said:


> Not familiar with Fiats, but wouldn't the glow plug light come back on as a tell tale of faulty glow plug?


It is a Peugeot not a Fiat
Peugeot Glow plug fault codes

P1391 Glow plug circuit Low input (Bank #1)

P1392 Glow plug circuit High input (Bank #1)

P1393 Glow plug circuit Low input (Bank #2)

P1394 Glow plug circuit High input (Bank #2)

P1395 Glow plug monitor Fault (Bank #1)

P1396 Glow plug monitor Fault (Bank #2)

P1399 Glow plug circuit High side High input

P1424 EGI Glow plug Primary failure

P1425 EGI glow plug Secondary failure / ED15C2 with FAP - Catalytic converter downstream temperature signal. Short circuit to positive or open circuit or Coherence between converter 1 & 2 temperature signal.

If it is the glow plugs themselves it doesn't always show as a fault, in my experience typically one glow plug fails and you don't notice, then another fails and it is slow to start but then comes the cold weather or a third one fails and you have problems


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## Deleted member 37170 (Nov 17, 2014)

Diesel engines are notorious for bad starting in cold weather, the reason is the way they work as opposed to petrol engines.
Petrol engines work by exploding a petrol/air mixture with a spark. Providing there is a spark and gas (petrol/air mix) the engine will fire up.
Diesel engines work on compression. The diesel oil is highly compressed at the top of the cylinder when the piston reaches the top of it's stroke, under this amount of pressure the diesel oil gets very hot, hot enough to explode and force the piston down and the engine to turn over. The problem is that the engine when cold will not, even under this pressure, be hot enough the explode the diesel oil. So the answer was to assist the heating at the top of the cylinder by adding an electric heater that "Glows" for a short time when the ignition is switched on, rather like a small electric fire, these are the glow plugs. In order for the starting process to work the ignition is first switched on and the battery is connected to these glow plugs to heat them up, they cannot stay on all the time so they are on a timer. The timer is set for so many seconds, according to how cold the engine is.
When the timer cuts out the glow plug warning light goes out in the cab and you should then crank the engine. The next stage of the engine cold start cycle is for the injection of diesel oil into the cylinder. The cold start, similar to the old "choke"  system on a petrol engine comes into operation and an added amount of diesel is injected into the cylinders to "Throw more fuel onto the fire" so to speak. When the piston comes to the top of it's stroke it compresses the diesel in a now pre-heated state and more than the usual amount and this then more or less guarantees an explosion and the engine to fire up.
From the above we can see the things that can go wrong:
The Glow plug switch fails, this is the relay that you can hear click when you turn on the ignition. No click = no power to the glow plugs.
The heater or heaters have failed. No pre-heating of the cylinder head and so too cold to fire.
This is the electrical / fuel starting process, but there is another three important parts to the equation. 
The Diesel in order to burn needs oxygen, it gets this by sucking in air through a filter from the outside atmosphere. If this filter is blocked you are effectively cutting off the oxygen supply and strangling the engine. So a clean air filter is essential.
Next. The engine needs to "pack a punch". On turning over as said above, the piston has to compress the diesel in order for it to create the heat for it to explode. If the piston slowly punches the diesel it will not get the right reaction because the pressure will be low and slow, the diesel will remain wet and in the cylinder head. The engine needs to turn over fast to deliver the knock-out punch and it will only do this if the battery is tip-top and the starter motor is in good working order. So a tired battery or a tired starter motor will both cause a diesel engine starting problems.
Finally and far more serious is the compression needed in the cylinder head.  The cylinder head must not allow any of the gasses to escape when it travels to the top of it's stroke. The valves must have an air tight seal in the head to allow the huge pressure needed to generate the heat to explode the diesel/air mixture. When cold the metal valves will be in a shrunken state and this is when worn valves will leak most, as they heat up they expand and get better in performance. If all starting electrics are good and bad starting is still a problem then you need to do an engine compression test to make sure that the valves are Ok and the piston rings are good, that also causes a loss of compression. If the compression is not good then a major overall of valves and rings will be needed.

The black smoke is a tell tale sign. Think about the above, more diesel injected into the cranking engine because of the cold start system (Choke) the number of times the diesel is still wet in the cylinder head (not burnt in any way) means when it does finally start up all this excess fuel is burnt, shoved along and out the exhaust. 
Hope this helps all of us with diesel engine start problems. It is only basic because on modern day diesel engines, computers are at work but the principle is still the same. Do the checks for the above and change any faulty items before winter comes on, because it will find you out. Finally: a word of warning. Do NOT use easy start in your engine, it will become dependant on the stuff to start it and it is very aggressive as stated by the previous poster.


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## stonedaddy (Nov 17, 2014)

*Glow plugs.*

Hi Jac I have just changed my glow plugs and it was a pig of a job. If yours are at the front of the engine you will be half way home. Mine where low down at the back at a strange angle. I took everything off that was looking like obstructing the way to them. I also had to take the injectors out to get below them. Even getting the little nuts off the top of the glow plugs that connect the wires was an epic little job. I have a new air filter on so know that was not the problem. My glow plug timer relay clicked on and off OK and I had the voltage at the plugs OK. I have not tried it yet as I am waiting for a new fuel filter to arrive. One thing to be really careful with is make sure you plug the open holes left by removed injectors and glow plugs because anything hard falling down the holes will damage the pistons and then you have got a job on your hands. Mine only started being hard to start last week when on the Bleanavon meet in Wales. The full set of injectors only cost £21.80 so was not to expensive. Also you should put them back with a torque wrench as they are easily damaged if over tight and could blow if under tight. Having said that I could not get my torque wrench onto three of them due to it hitting the injector pump and other obstructing things. If you go down the road of doing it yourself good luck.
.... Tom ....


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## barryd (Nov 17, 2014)

Bopper said:


> Diesel engines are notorious for bad starting in cold weather, the reason is the way they work as opposed to petrol engines.
> Petrol engines work by exploding a petrol/air mixture with a spark. Providing there is a spark and gas (petrol/air mix) the engine will fire up.
> Diesel engines work on compression. The diesel oil is highly compressed at the top of the cylinder when the piston reaches the top of it's stroke, under this amount of pressure the diesel oil gets very hot, hot enough to explode and force the piston down and the engine to turn over. The problem is that the engine when cold will not, even under this pressure, be hot enough the explode the diesel oil. So the answer was to assist the heating at the top of the cylinder by adding an electric heater that "Glows" for a short time when the ignition is switched on, rather like a small electric fire, these are the glow plugs. In order for the starting process to work the ignition is first switched on and the battery is connected to these glow plugs to heat them up, they cannot stay on all the time so they are on a timer. The timer is set for so many seconds, according to how cold the engine is.
> When the timer cuts out the glow plug warning light goes out in the cab and you should then crank the engine. The next stage of the engine cold start cycle is for the injection of diesel oil into the cylinder. The cold start, similar to the old "choke"  system on a petrol engine comes into operation and an added amount of diesel is injected into the cylinders to "Throw more fuel onto the fire" so to speak. When the piston comes to the top of it's stroke it compresses the diesel in a now pre-heated state and more than the usual amount and this then more or less guarantees an explosion and the engine to fire up.
> ...



What a superb and excellent explanation.  Thank you so much for going to the trouble of writing that in plain english.

At the risk of hijacking the thread thats helped me a lot.   As I explained earlier our van has had the same problem for years.

What is interesting is  your mention of the air intake.  I did over the summer have the Air Filter warning light come on.  I took it all to bits but could find no blockage so in the end just reset the warning light and its not come back on since.  I am wondering if there is maybe an air intake issue though.

Garage reckons the glow plugs were ok so I guess the other thing is to check the compression.  Dont know if its coincidence but I have noticed when we travel down a large Col or mountain pass in a low gear.  When you eventually hit the accelerator at the bottom there is often a lot of smoke out the exhaust which soon clears.  I am told older diesels do this but I am also told its a sign of rings going which could concurr with you theory about rings and valves causing poor starting.  Van is a sweet as a nut when warmed through though.  Sorry OP hope you dont mind.


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## Herbenny (Nov 17, 2014)

Thank you to all those that have posted you have been really helpful 

It sounds like too much of job for us to tackle ...and I would hate for something to go horribly wrong.
I phoned the garage up today and they have quoted me £210.00 parts and labour....gutted is an understatement as the parts are not even that expensive 
Really don't need this just before Christmas but it has to be done.

Thanks anyway all of you


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## barryd (Nov 17, 2014)

Herbenny said:


> Thank you to all those that have posted you have been really helpful
> 
> It sounds like too much of job for us to tackle ...and I would hate for something to go horribly wrong.
> I phoned the garage up today and they have quoted me £210.00 parts and labour....gutted is an understatement as the parts are not even that expensive
> ...



Im sure I didnt pay anywhere near that for new glow plugs.  Think it was about £120 fitted


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## izwozral (Nov 17, 2014)

One glow plug & ecu temp sensor + check on other three plugs - I paid £80.


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## K9d (Nov 17, 2014)

I too have changed 3 out of 4 glow plugs on my 1988 Fiat Ducato, for the same reason as above.
Mine did start better after I had been using premium diesel for a while, but a few trips to France and cheaper supermarket diesel has brought things back to normal , but I do suspect a weak battery may be causing me issues.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 17, 2014)

A bit like voting for a new pope then. White smoke = not igniting . Black smoke = firing.
You only have to watch how much black smoke comes out of racing trucks or tractor pullers. :fun:


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## Herbenny (Nov 18, 2014)

Do you think I will be doing more harm than good if I held off until January.. We only plan to use the van. A couple if times during December and probably could get jump starts. 
Wasn't sure if it's something that would need doing urgently or not


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## mark61 (Nov 18, 2014)

Herbenny said:


> Do you think I will be doing more harm than good if I held off until January.. We only plan to use the van. A couple if times during December and probably could get jump starts.
> Wasn't sure if it's something that would need doing urgently or not



If you are only using it a few times, it may be worth putting battery on charge. At least you'll have a well charged battery to turn engine over a few times.


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## ricc (Nov 18, 2014)

with cold weather coming its worth checking the connections on both thick battery leads , both at the battery and starter motor end,  take them off clean the mating surfaces with sandpaper or a knife blade and refit tightly.    its also possible to get corrosion where the connections are crimped onto the leads..usually the joint will get hot ..any sign of melting insulation by the joint means its time to fit new leads.

on a van that only gets occasional use its worth sticking one of them wee solar chargers on the dash , it just keeps the battery topped right up, can make all the difference on a cold morning.   just check the cigar lighter socket is live with the ignition turned off


faulty glow plugs is usually white smoke on a cold start
black smoke is excess fuel to air ...either blocked air filter  or faulty inectors.

set of glow plugs should be an hours work for a mechanic wot knows what hes doing ..or . 2 on a modern well designed engine with loads of junk in the way.


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## mark61 (Nov 18, 2014)

Very true, but if you don't want any expense till after Christmas, and the vehicle is not used often, then charging the battery may be just enough to see you through. It certainly wont do any harm.


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## AIKIDOMO (Nov 18, 2014)

I would advise taking it to a garage.I was told by my local garage that most times its not the glow plugs, I had a similar problem with my small van not our motor home. They noticed  that the compression was low so they had to shim it. No problem after this.:cool1:


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## Deleted member 37170 (Nov 18, 2014)

I have read the very interesting posts above and will only add that nearly all the advice given has been good advice.
ricc has made a very good comment on the battery connection issues and others have touched on things that can cause bad cold starts.

I would just try here if I may to summarise as follows:

There will be wear in an older engine obviously. A newer engine is able to tolerate much more ineffective starting problems than an older one. An older engine asks more from the owner with regard to maintenance. 
ricc quite rightly mentions battery connections so starting off the problem solving should start here by cleaning the large lugs and terminal connections first. The neg - thick wire goes to a bolt somewhere on the engine block, it is very important that this wire is in good condition and it's  connection is sound and clean. 
 Next the relay which is in effect a big electronic switch. The thin wires used at the ignition switch would melt if put directly onto the battery so the little wires are connected to a magnet. This magnet  attracts a bigger switch and joins up the very thick wires needed to power the Glow Plugs. This relay is on a timer which is told to "Stay on" for a specific length of time 5 - 10 seconds say. So we now have three things to think about with your problem. (1) Are the battery terminals (lugs) clean? (2) Are the connections of the wires clean without any corrosion? (It doesn't hurt to clean them anyway) (3) Does the relay pull in and stay in for a short time? (get someone to listen for a click when operating the ignition on) then listen for the relay to click off again. (Wints kindly pointed out to you where it is located). If there is no click or the click on and then off again is only one second or two then the relay will need to be replaced because there is the problem. If all this is done and still no luck then check the next stage. From the relay there will be a thick wire that goes to the Glow Plugs. These plugs are screwed into the cylinder head and have a small nut holding down the thick wire. Check that the wires are on and are not broken, this can happen due to vibration. 
For a matter of a tenner or so you should have a voltmeter. Placing the black - wire onto a clean engine bolt and the red + onto the little nuts on the glow plugs should tell you that you have a 13 - 14 volt power there when the ignition is just turned on (get someone to do this for you and be quick because once the relay has clicked off, the currant will disappear.)  When you have done this and the starter motor whizzes the engine over it should start, if not then the problem is not an electrical fault. (Having said this, some modern engines have sensors to detect the air temperature and also sniff the mixture of air and diesel being sucked in. These faults will be picked up on codes that are locked into an engine management computer and can only be accessed by a "Code reader", these faults are difficult to find without the code reader and when a fault is found the sensor is replaced or measures taken to stop the fault at source.)

A compression test is required only if the Air / fuel / electrics are all OK. A low compression test will show up any valve or ring problems but unless the engine is very well worn it will not be the problem.

Finally. The garage charges you stated are far too expensive. A change of glow plugs should be no more than £100 including the checks to the electrics as stated above. A code read should be about £40 on it's own and you should get the resulting problem told to you ie: a temp sensor or air intake sensor which you can easily replace yourself.
I wish you good luck.


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## Polar Bear (Nov 18, 2014)

In't good old days when I was an apprentice my old gaffer used to say 
"lad for a diesel engine to start it needs three things compression, fuel and a battery strong enough to spin it over" 

At that time we had a diesel folk lift truck the required a blow lamp stuffed into an adapted inlet manifold to get it going and you would see people in the street in the winter putting a shovel of fire coals under a diesel engine sump to warm an it up.

I would often be sent out in cold weather to go around the van park during the early hours with two 12volt batteries making 24 volts bolted together on a trolley with jump leads to get trucks going.

These were the days you had to polarise a starter motor with jump leads before fitting or it would try to go around in the wrong way.


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## Goaskalys (Nov 18, 2014)

I had a problem with my Transit 2ltr not starting, which eventually turned out to be all four glowplugs U/S. My mechanic had never seen that before. He did mention that they were a bugger to get out. Engine starts great now.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 18, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> In't good old days when I was an apprentice my old gaffer used to say
> "lad for a diesel engine to start it needs three things compression, fuel and a battery strong enough to spin it over"
> 
> At that time we had a diesel folk lift truck the required a blow lamp stuffed into an adapted inlet manifold to get it going and you would see people in the street in the winter putting a shovel of fire coals under a diesel engine sump to warm an it up.
> ...


I remember the cold Winter of 1987 and in between jobs I was Lorry driving for my Father in Law, Scotland with no heater and the rubber seal around the pedals missing, we were all stuck on a road for the night because of drifts and they were lighting fires under the diesel fuel tanks to stop the fuel waxing, to get them going the air intake was removed and a rolled up piece of paper was set alight and placed in the inlet manifold, some used blowlamps but it all added to the fun, don't you miss those days
not


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