# Extend Schengen Area time to 180 days



## Channelcrosser

Hi,

I just started the petition "Extend 90 day schengen area stay" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.

This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it, the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the petition here:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...39-494b-842a-9f3279d57d8b&source=&utm_source=

Thank you!



P.S. Can you also take a moment to share the petition with others? It's really easy – all you need to do is forward this email or share this link on Facebook or Twitter:


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## antiquesam

Where is your petition going? Schengen is nothing to do with the UK. We've never been in it and now that we are out of Europe we can't be.


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## Tookey

We lost, it's time to move on and accept that 90 days is still a good deal in comparison to travel outside of Europe


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## Fazerloz

There are already petitions running.








						Petition: Negotiate more favorable post-transition travel rules for U.K. citizens
					

From 1st January 2021, U.K. citizens travelling to the EU will only be allowed to stay a maximum of 90 days in every 6 month period.   The government must negotiate reciprocal treatment for its U.K. citizens, meaning allowing  stays of atleast 180 consecutive days.




					petition.parliament.uk


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## colinm

Tookey said:


> We lost, it's time to move on and accept that 90 days is still a good deal in comparison to travel outside of Europe


If you want to visit US or Oz it's 90 days if using visa waiver, or 6 months if getting a full visa.


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## Tookey

colinm said:


> If you want to visit US or Oz it's 90 days if using visa waiver, or 6 months if getting a full visa.


Sorry, I am unsure of your point


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## colinm

Tookey said:


> Sorry, I am unsure of your point


This is what you posted. 


> 90 days is still a good deal in comparison to travel outside of Europe


I may have misunderstood your point, as in USA and Oz(as examples) you can get tourist visa's for 6 months travel, and for the US one you can extend it, much better than the 90 day EU stay.


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## barryd

Well I have signed both. Not sure what good it will do but it cant do any harm.  Its devastating news for some of us long term motorhomers but I doubt we are on anyones radar.  Its going to be down to the EU though to offer this.


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## SimonM

I thought you can apply for an extension to 180 days? 

Depending when we can actually leave the UK I want to go to France and look at buying a place there, possibly to remain there.


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## mariesnowgoose

I'm seriously thinking of applying for an Irish passport (I'm eligible).

Would love to move to Europe, but figuring we might have missed the boat - by 'we' I mean 'me' and t'other half.
Anyone who is young and fit enough might want to consider moving out of the UK.
This is nothing sudden or new, I've been saying that to youngsters for a long time now.


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## REC

Can't really understand why people are so surprised about 90 day Schengen rule, it's always been there, just overridden by EU freedom of movement. It is just another result of Brexit. What we could do is join the Schengen zone countries...but that's not going to happen either!


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## colinm

SimonM said:


> I thought you can apply for an extension to 180 days?
> 
> Depending when we can actually leave the UK I want to go to France and look at buying a place there, possibly to remain there.


There is no extension for EU


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## RoaminRog

As I understand it, ‘Europeans’ are allowed to come to the UK for six continuous months without a visa, so I think the arrangement should be reciprocated. Both petitions signed, with feeling!


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## mariesnowgoose

Stable.
Door.
Horse.
Bolted.

Accept it and adjust your future travel plans accordingly?
There might be room for re-negotiation on some things down the line, but I wouldn't expect *anything* to happen overnight.


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## RV2MAX

I dont see much of a change , will it be 180 in 360   rather than 90 in 180  ?    I don't see it happening , as it would come into conflict with individual countries residency/ taxation requirements


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## barryd

SimonM said:


> I thought you can apply for an extension to 180 days?
> 
> Depending when we can actually leave the UK I want to go to France and look at buying a place there, possibly to remain there.



I think its possible for some countries, France being one of them but as said above not for Schengen as a whole.  The procedure for France is extremely complicated, expensive and there are no guarantees even after you have shelled out the cash for legal stuff, translators of documents etc that you will get it.  I Also doubt motorhoming will be a valid reason for an extension.

The only way I can see to get around it is for a Summer trip to break it up with maybe a stay in Croatia (making sure you get proof of exit and reentry back into Schengen) and for a Winter trip to Spain going down to Morocco for a length of time and doing the same there.  A complete PIA and maybe not desirable to many.


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## Tookey

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm seriously thinking of applying for an Irish passport (I'm eligible).
> 
> Would love to move to Europe, but figuring we might have missed the boat - by 'we' I mean 'me' and t'other half.
> Anyone who is young and fit enough might want to consider moving out of the UK.
> This is nothing sudden or new, I've been saying that to youngsters for a long time now.


No thinking required, do it. My mum can't find my Irish grandmother's birth certificate and doesn't  know what 'middle of no where' village she came from


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## mariesnowgoose

Tookey said:


> No thinking required, do it. My mum can't find my Irish grandmother's birth certificate and doesn't  know what 'middle of no where' village she came from



Keep looking!  
My nephew has been urging me and my sister to do this since the beginning of the B stuff.
We have birth certificates for both grandparents.


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## antiquesam

barryd said:


> I think its possible for some countries, France being one of them but as said above not for Schengen as a whole.  The procedure for France is extremely complicated, expensive and there are no guarantees even after you have shelled out the cash for legal stuff, translators of documents etc that you will get it.  I Also doubt motorhoming will be a valid reason for an extension.
> 
> The only way I can see to get around it is for a Summer trip to break it up with maybe a stay in Croatia (making sure you get proof of exit and reentry back into Schengen) and for a Winter trip to Spain going down to Morocco for a length of time and doing the same there.  A complete PIA and maybe not desirable to many.


Any country not adhering to the Schengen rules would be contravening the terms of the agreement risking being heavily fined or thrown out. France is unlikely to be a front runner on this.


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## Tookey

mariesnowgoose said:


> Keep looking!
> My nephew has been urging me and my sister to do this since the beginning of the B stuff.
> We have birth certificates for both grandparents.


Your right. You gonna get your butt in gear and sort yours now?


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## witzend

barryd said:


> Well I have signed both. Not sure what good it will do but it cant do any harm.  Its going to be down to the EU though to offer this.


The trouble with running 2 petitions if most just vote for 1 its splitting the total so each won't reach a high enough total to be taken seriously pity the second was started really. The EU won't offer anything they'll use it as a bargaining chip to get something from us during any negotiations


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## mariesnowgoose

Tookey said:


> Your right. You gonna get your butt in gear and sort yours now?



Need to add it to the list of the thousand & one other urgent things that need to get done around here, Tookey...   
My monthly budget ain't big enough to cope with everything at once, and always seems to be too many things popping up on the priority list.


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## mark61

Have often been asked, if I were to move to mainland Europe, where would I move. Never really had an answer, down south is a bit dusty, up north perhaps, nah don't want to eat herring everyday.


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## mariesnowgoose

France is good (and civilised).

Portugal is cheap and (mostly) warm.

Everywhere has downsides, depends whether you think the downsides here outweigh the downsides there.

Main thing for me would be language barrier. 
Not sure my old brain would learn a new language all that easily, but you really have to do it.


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## Snapster

Move to any EU country ( except maybe Portugal) and you are still limited to 90 days in 180 outside your country of residence. 
But, I think any petition is just fighting a losing battle. There are UK and EU lawyers now trying to get round the rule and have been for months to try to change the rules for second home owners and for UK citizens to retain their EU citizenship and the UK have made it plain they don’t want to change the arrangement ( The EU offered visa free travel for musicians and other performers to work and tour in the EU over the 90 day limit, but the UK government blocked it. )
The UK government has never wanted to join the Schengen Zone even when we were in the EU and are against all attempts to re establish free movement. 
So, good luck, but don’t expect any petitions to the UK government to have any effect.


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## mariesnowgoose

Snapster said:


> Move to any EU country ( except maybe Portugal) and you are still limited to 90 days in 180 outside your country of residence.



Why is Portugal the only exemption? 
Surely if you have residence status in *any* country which is a member of the EU you will not be restricted by the 90 day rule as you will be classed as an EU resident?

But maybe I'm wrong... ?


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## barryd

I think for EU citizens they are allowed to roam as long they like across Schengen but officially after 90 days in "one" single country you are supposed to register but you are free to come and go and roam about all year if you wish.  The 90 day rule to them for a "single" stay in one country is not really enforced probably because there are no internal checks and you could just cross a border and go back again and reset the clock. I guess they could enforce it if someone became a problem.   Outside of the EU and outside of Schengen its an entirely different story of course as you are logged in and out and 90 days is your limit for all of Schengen not just per country.

As for the petitions, often there are often more than one but usually one will take over and snowball but how many Brits are going to be signing it? Not that many I imagine.  Over six million signed the second referendum / confirmatory vote petition but it did no good.  The UK government wont support this, its not really in their interest.


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## Snapster

mariesnowgoose said:


> Why is Portugal the only exemption?
> Surely if you have residence status in *any* country which is a member of the EU you will not be restricted by the 90 day rule as you will be classed as an EU resident?
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong... ?



I do not know why Portugal is different, but somehow they allow ( of soon will allow) residents to negate the 90 day rule with their residents permit  As an EU national, you have unrestricted access to work or travel within the Schengen with no border checks and no maximum stay ( though you may be required to register your stay in another country after 3 months ( you can’t be resident in more than one country) ) It all depends on your passport. Living in the EU as a UK national, you are bound by the 90 day rule ( except in the country you live) unless you take up citizenship ( with a passport) in that country


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## John H

mariesnowgoose said:


> Why is Portugal the only exemption?
> Surely if you have residence status in *any* country which is a member of the EU you will not be restricted by the 90 day rule as you will be classed as an EU resident?
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong... ?


As far as I know, Portugal is not an exception. You can apply for residency in any of the member states that allows you to stay more than 90 days. It does, however, have important implications for tax, healthcare and other things- so not a simple way of getting round the 90 day rule in Portugal or any other state. Technically, a resident of an EU state can only spend 90 days in 180 in any other member state but this is not enforced because the EU Directive on Freedom of Movement is seen to over-ride it.


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## RV2MAX

The Irish passport will be OK till Irish realise all their fish have been robbed , and tax harmonisation has taken the multinationals  and they are like Greece  .  That what some are saying  ?


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## REC

The residency is only for Portugal. We are not an EU national any more ( had to change our residency documents and it now says Portugal resident not EU citizen) so Schengen rules apply to us outside of Portugal. We will be clocked crossing into France and on return to UK, nobody has advised how we prove how long we were in our residence and how long travelling in rest of EU. We plan to get receipts when we arrive and  leave Portugal so we can prove it.....if asked.


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## rugbyken

i did all the irish passport stuff early in lockdown a query sent came back that the department was closed eventually sent it of shortly before christmas but it all came back marked service not available, when it does open will have to get a new form the witness attestation is dated & limited and my mate has retired lol


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## antiquesam

REC said:


> The residency is only for Portugal. We are not an EU national any more ( had to change our residency documents and it now says Portugal resident not EU citizen) so Schengen rules apply to us outside of Portugal. We will be clocked crossing into France and on return to UK, nobody has advised how we prove how long we were in our residence and how long travelling in rest of EU. We plan to get receipts when we arrive and  leave Portugal so we can prove it.....if asked.


How do they know where you are in Europe if no one is on the borders to record your movement over a Schengen border?


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## Boris7

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm seriously thinking of applying for an Irish passport (I'm eligible).
> 
> Would love to move to Europe, but figuring we might have missed the boat - by 'we' I mean 'me' and t'other half.
> Anyone who is young and fit enough might want to consider moving out of the UK.
> This is nothing sudden or new, I've been saying that to youngsters for a long time now.





mariesnowgoose said:


> Stable.
> Door.
> Horse.
> Bolted.
> 
> Accept it and adjust your future travel plans accordingly?
> There might be room for re-negotiation on some things down the line, but I wouldn't expect *anything* to happen overnight.



If you can get an Irish passport then do so, had mine for many years and its much easier not just for the EU but other countries also.

Im told (but don’t know for a fact) that they have tightened up and that the rules with only Irish Grandparents have changed, but just to be clear I’ve only heard this, no experience.

As for British people with no access to an EU passport, I’m afraid the majority voted to leave. 

Whatever your view on that, your pretty much stuck with it and as much as I’d like to see easier and longer travel times allowed, I don’t see how partitions to the UK government could help.


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## REC

antiquesam said:


> How do they know where you are in Europe if no one is on the borders to record your movement over a Schengen border?


If it is recorded for instance, that we went into France in January, and went back through France checks in May...we could have to prove how long in Portugal? No border checks after France but always look at passports at the French / UK border. 
Hasn't happened yet but can't assume it will not be checked.


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## Deleted member 37892

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm seriously thinking of applying for an Irish passport (I'm eligible).
> 
> Would love to move to Europe, but figuring we might have missed the boat - by 'we' I mean 'me' and t'other half.
> Anyone who is young and fit enough might want to consider moving out of the UK.
> This is nothing sudden or new, I've been saying that to youngsters for a long time now.


I totally agree. I've said the same to my kids


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## jagmanx

Schengen rules simply will not change.
For the vast majority of use we are "Stuck with the 90 day limit".
There are the obvious exceptions, visa extensions for tourism are unlikely.
Those with residence in one other country are OK for that country.
But even they are limited to 90 days in others.
So ahead (covidwise0 just plan for 90 days.
The only country where it does not apply is ROI.
Yes there are non-schengen countries in EU but none of then any good for over 3 months in winter.
Just live with it and obey the rules !!!


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## antiquesam

REC said:


> If it is recorded for instance, that we went into France in January, and went back through France checks in May...we could have to prove how long in Portugal? No border checks after France but always look at passports at the French / UK border.
> Hasn't happened yet but can't assume it will not be checked.


I understand that they record your entering the Schengen zone but can't break it down to how long you stayed in Portugal with a residency, nor can you prove it with anything official. Surely.


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## REC

antiquesam said:


> I understand that they record your entering the Schengen zone but can't break it down to how long you stayed in Portugal with a residency, nor can you prove it with anything official. Surely.


If you read post #31 that is exactly what I am saying! But we plan to save receipts to substantiate when we arrive and leave Portugal in case of being asked. We don't know how they will react at French border if we cross after say, six months. So better to be prepared until we know. As there is a rule in place and , let's face it, the French can be pretty quick to fine.


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## Okta

Do we have any right to seek changes to Schengen? Would we be offended if someone from Europe wanted to interfere in our border/immigration policies?


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## vindiboy

Tookey said:


> We lost, it's time to move on and accept that 90 days is still a good deal in comparison to travel outside of Europe


We did not loose, the majority vote was upheld,


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## vindiboy

REC said:


> If you read post #31 that is exactly what I am saying! But we plan to save receipts to substantiate when we arrive and leave Portugal in case of being asked. We don't know how they will react at French border if we cross after say, six months. So better to be prepared until we know. As there is a rule in place and , let's face it, the French can be pretty quick to fine.


I see no grey areas, your passport will be scanned when you enter the Schengen and again when you leave so the dates will tell the tale? it was always known how long you had been out of the UK  when on our Jollies  by the same method?  seems simple enough to me?


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## Tookey

vindiboy said:


> We did not loose, the majority vote was upheld,


'We', I meant channelcrosser and myself as I presumed from his/her post that they would have chosen to stay. The rest of my post surely makes it clear that I accepted the majority vote. It was not a political statement in any form


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## Admin

Let's keep this thread away from the rights or wrongs of Brexit.


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## colinm

vindiboy said:


> I see no grey areas, your passport will be scanned when you enter the Schengen and again when you leave so the dates will tell the tale? it was always known how long you had been out of the UK  when on our Jollies  by the same method?  seems simple enough to me?


The problem REC has if they have right to reside in Portugal, but not right to go beyond 90 days in rest of Schengen area, this means they can legally enter France on say 1st Nov, drive down to Portugal, spend 6 months there, then drive back to UK, the question then is if they get picked up as overstaying in Schengen.


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## REC

vindiboy said:


> I see no grey areas, your passport will be scanned when you enter the Schengen and again when you leave so the dates will tell the tale? it was always known how long you had been out of the UK  when on our Jollies  by the same method?  seems simple enough to me?


Sorry, don't get what you are saying...maybe read the previous posts?


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## Fazerloz

For the vast majority they will know exactly where and for how long you are wherever. Most carry a spy in their pocket. Its not difficult for the authorities to access it.


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## Tony Lee

colinm said:


> This is what you posted.
> 
> I may have misunderstood your point, as in USA and Oz(as examples) you can get tourist visa's for 6 months travel, and for the US one you can extend it, much better than the 90 day EU stay.



The US B1B2 visa costs a heap of money and requires a face to face interview and filling out a 20 page online application. It often counts time spent in Canada and Mexico as having been spent in the US. The Schengen 90 days is essentially free and you can easily pad it out as much as you want by including non-schengen countries. 

But good luck with your petition as then they would have to extend it to a lot of other loyal countries


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## Deleted member 51254

Channelcrosser said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just started the petition "Extend 90 day schengen area stay" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.
> 
> This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it, the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the petition here:
> 
> https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...39-494b-842a-9f3279d57d8b&source=&utm_source=
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Can you also take a moment to share the petition with others? It's really easy – all you need to do is forward this email or share this link on Facebook or Twitter:


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## GeoffL

colinm said:


> If you want to visit US or Oz it's 90 days if using visa waiver, or 6 months if getting a full visa.


AFAICT, there is no visa waiver for Oz -- at least none that Jan and I have been able to use for our regular pre-covid visits. We've always needed to obtain eVisitor visas at a minimum. These permit an unlimited number of stays, each of up to 3 months, in a twelve month period. Pity Schengen isn't the same.

FWIW, the Aussies really have got this one sorted as each year we applied online and my visa grant notification was invariably in my inbox before I'd finished applying for Jan's! Hopefully, we'll soon have CANZUK, with the same movement rights to Oz as we used to have with the EU. I say that because there's currently a waiting time of over thirty years for non-contributory aged parent visas


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## colinm

GeoffL said:


> AFAICT, there is no visa waiver for Oz -- at least none that Jan and I have been able to use for our regular pre-covid visits. We've always needed to obtain eVisitor visas at a minimum. These permit an unlimited number of stays, each of up to 3 months, in a twelve month period. Pity Schengen isn't the same.



I clumsily tacked on Oz with US, it should be, US 90 days with 'visa waiver' plus you can get full visitor visa for longer periods. Australia visa with 6 months at a time. The point being both allow longer visits, something which EU won't allow for tourists around Schengen area.


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## GeoffL

colinm said:


> I clumsily tacked on Oz with US, it should be, US 90 days with 'visa waiver' plus you can get full visitor visa for longer periods. Australia visa with 6 months at a time. The point being both allow longer visits, something which EU won't allow for tourists around Schengen area.


That's not quite true as you can apply for long-stay visas (e.g. This from the French Government). That said, I have no requirement to stay in EU for more than 90 days in any year and so haven't investigated this rigorously...


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## colinm

GeoffL said:


> That's not quite true as you can apply for long-stay visas (e.g. This from the French Government). That said, I have no requirement to stay in EU for more than 90 days in any year and so haven't investigated this rigorously...


The OP and my post is about the Schengen area, not visa's for specific EU states.


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## iampatman

Let’s be honest, it ain’t happening, you can sign all the petitions you want but you’re still going to have to live with 90/180.  All you lucky folk with motorhomes who used to spend long periods roaming around mainland Europe can say goodbye to that now.  The good news is that when things get back to normal (normal?) if any of you should venture down this way you’re welcome to a hot shower, a beer/cup of tea and a chat. Smokers welcome  

Pat


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## GeoffL

colinm said:


> The OP and my post is about the Schengen area, not visa's for specific EU states.


This is why I wrote "not *quite* true". If your wish is to spend more than 90/180 in a specific country, the Schengen 90/180 rule doesn't prevent this provided you can get a long-stay visa.

Each of those specific EU states are within the Schengen area. So, you can spend three months touring generally and then up to the remainder of a year in one or more specific countries. For example, AFAICT, you can apply for long stay visas in both France and Spain and happily move between the two. Because there are no border controls within Schengen, you could (albeit illegally and at risk) also travel anywhere within the Schengen area and your documentation would still be in order on the way home because of your long stay visa in a specific EU state.


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## John H

GeoffL said:


> That's not quite true as you can apply for long-stay visas (e.g. This from the French Government). That said, I have no requirement to stay in EU for more than 90 days in any year and so haven't investigated this rigorously...


Yes you can apply for a long stay visa but it is not cheap and not easy - with no guarantee that you will be accepted (especially if you try it more than once).


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## barryd

John H said:


> Yes you can apply for a long stay visa but it is not cheap and not easy - with no guarantee that you will be accepted (especially if you try it more than once).



I found a visa "wizard" on this site so I started filling in the application for France.  





__





						Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr
					

Try our visa wizard and check in a few clicks if you need a visa to come to France



					france-visas.gouv.fr
				




I am not sure what the Pre requisite travel document is.  I presume it means your passport.  The travel insurance might be a bit pricey, I always relied on the EHIC card but I guess its just another additional cost we will have to bear.  The stumbling block for many might be the proof of residency in France.  I dont think putting down a campsite will work. Fortunately I think I could conjure up a couple of close friends who live in France to get round that one. Then there is just the fee I guess. I am sure I Read something about it all having to be translated by an official translator into French but I havent got that far yet. Just wanted to test the procedure. 

France would be my choice as its where we spend the majority of our time. If I could get a 180 or 365 Visa we could do a long six month Trip into Europe but what a carry on!    I guess we will have to wait until someone actually tests the water for real.


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## John H

barryd said:


> I found a visa "wizard" on this site so I started filling in the application for France.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr
> 
> 
> Try our visa wizard and check in a few clicks if you need a visa to come to France
> 
> 
> 
> france-visas.gouv.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure what the Pre requisite travel document is.  I presume it means your passport.  The travel insurance might be a bit pricey, I always relied on the EHIC card but I guess its just another additional cost we will have to bear.  The stumbling block for many might be the proof of residency in France.  I dont think putting down a campsite will work. Fortunately I think I could conjure up a couple of close friends who live in France to get round that one. Then there is just the fee I guess. I am sure I Read something about it all having to be translated by an official translator into French but I havent got that far yet. Just wanted to test the procedure.
> 
> France would be my choice as its where we spend the majority of our time. If I could get a 180 or 365 Visa we could do a long six month Trip into Europe but what a carry on!    I guess we will have to wait until someone actually tests the water for real.


As I said - complicated!  The Spanish one also asks for a criminal record check and all the documents have to be translated professionally, so the costs soon mount up and none of it is refundable if they refuse you. We have friends in France but I don't think I would want to put them in an impossible situation by lying about where we are going to be. Also, what on earth does "proof of your socio-economic situation" mean? I think I'd rather take my 3 months in the EU and then jet off to Egypt or Thailand or somewhere else cheap and warm.


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## barryd

John H said:


> As I said - complicated!  The Spanish one also asks for a criminal record check and all the documents have to be translated professionally, so the costs soon mount up and none of it is refundable if they refuse you. We have friends in France but I don't think I would want to put them in an impossible situation by lying about where we are going to be. Also, what on earth does "proof of your socio-economic situation" mean? I think I'd rather take my 3 months in the EU and then jet off to Egypt or Thailand or somewhere else cheap and warm.



I would hope there is a way, especially for France.  They probably have not considered motorhomers on the forms but when you think about it would be to their advantage to figure out some kind of long term travelling visa for motorhomers.  I spend on average about £1000 a month when touring and there are thousands of us that go long term touring.  Its not big bucks but its guaranteed positive income to the French economy.  Why would they turn that away?  The British Government I imagine will see it the other way. They would rather we spend our money here I would imagine but stuff that, I want to go touring Europe and I want to do it like I did before for up to or beyond six months, a complete, Spring, summer and autumn. 

It will be a while before thats possible anyway but where there is a will there will be a way.


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## John H

barryd said:


> I would hope there is a way, especially for France.  They probably have not considered motorhomers on the forms but when you think about it would be to their advantage to figure out some kind of long term travelling visa for motorhomers.  I spend on average about £1000 a month when touring and there are thousands of us that go long term touring.  Its not big bucks but its guaranteed positive income to the French economy.  Why would they turn that away?  The British Government I imagine will see it the other way. They would rather we spend our money here I would imagine but stuff that, I want to go touring Europe and I want to do it like I did before for up to or beyond six months, a complete, Spring, summer and autumn.
> 
> It will be a while before thats possible anyway but where there is a will there will be a way.


I'd like to think you are right but I won't hold my breathe


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## barryd

John H said:


> I'd like to think you are right but I won't hold my breathe



I wonder if there would be any mileage in writing to someone in authority or maybe a Brit friendly MEP.  Perhaps create an online group. There must be plenty of full timers wondering where they are going to spend their time touring.  Im a member on the CC Infos forum. Could maybe start there although its hard work.  Its not urgent for me really anyway as even if we are allowed out to play I wont be going far this year.


----------



## John H

barryd said:


> I wonder if there would be any mileage in writing to someone in authority or maybe a Brit friendly MEP.  Perhaps create an online group. There must be plenty of full timers wondering where they are going to spend their time touring.  Im a member on the CC Infos forum. Could maybe start there although its hard work.  Its not urgent for me really anyway as even if we are allowed out to play I wont be going far this year.


In the past, I have, along with many others, e-mailed Guy Verhofstadt, who is very sympathetic but the problem is that it is not a matter that the majority of MEPs care about, so he has an uphill battle. Couldn't do any harm to contact him again though.


----------



## barryd

John H said:


> In the past, I have, along with many others, e-mailed Guy Verhofstadt, who is very sympathetic but the problem is that it is not a matter that the majority of MEPs care about, so he has an uphill battle. Couldn't do any harm to contact him again though.



He loves us Brits.  There was also Charles Goerens who I seem to remember was also fighting for UK citizens to keep their citizenship but as far as I know its not got anywhere.  I would have happily paid a fee for that.





__





						MEP puts forward plan for EU citizenship for Britons
					

MEP Charles Goerens wants a new kind of EU citizenship for Britons who value being Europeans.




					www.connexionfrance.com


----------



## witzend

I can't quite see how 180 x 180 will be better if we stay away for 180 days then we'd have to wait 180 days before going back ? may do anyone who wants a long winter stay with no intentions of any thing else but but I think 90days march april & may being home june, july & aug then have another trip sept oct & nov might serve us better


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## barryd

witzend said:


> I can't quite see how 180 x 180 will be better if we stay away for 180 days then we'd have to wait 180 days before going back ? may do anyone who wants a long winter stay with no intentions of any thing else but but I think 90days march april & may being home june, july & aug then have another trip sept oct & nov might serve us better



Why would the gap in between be 180 days? Might only be 90.  Either way for me personally or someone maybe doing a long tour once a year 180 days would suit me better.  90 days in Im just getting going!  

Anyway, I doubt it will change.  Unless its offered by the EU on their own our government wont push for it.


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## jagmanx

I like posts 59 and 60.
As barryd suggests £1000 is a good estimate of spending.


----------



## antiquesam

They say the world loves an optimist so they, must love a lot of British motorhomers but I'm pretty sure it won't get them anywhere when it comes to having a European Treaty changed.


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## witzend

barryd said:


> Why would the gap in between be 180 days?


I'm assuming as mentioned earlier that it would be a reciprocal arrangement like the French have with us isn't that what they are allowed when coming to UK ?


----------



## antiquesam

witzend said:


> I'm assuming as mentioned earlier that it would be a reciprocal arrangement like the French have with us isn't that what they are allowed when coming to UK ?


The French cannot defy the Schengen Agreement. It must be a unanimous decision to change. We have permitted European citizens to stay in the UK longer but that was our decision for our benefit.


----------



## barryd

witzend said:


> I'm assuming as mentioned earlier that it would be a reciprocal arrangement like the French have with us isn't that what they are allowed when coming to UK ?



Seems as clear as mud. This was written during the transition period so I guess it depends if anything has changed or not. I am not sure it has.  If reading this correctly a none visa visitor from France can come and stay six months, clear off and then just come back again (I think). 

Sounds like even the immigration officials (according to that article) are not always sure.









						There is no 180 day a year rule for visitors to the UK - Free Movement
					

Staying in the UK for ages on a visit visa can cause problems, but there is no specific rule against visiting for more than 180 days in any given year.



					www.freemovement.org.uk


----------



## antiquesam

barryd said:


> Seems as clear as mud. This was written during the transition period so I guess it depends if anything has changed or not. I am not sure it has.  If reading this correctly a none visa visitor from France can come and stay six months, clear off and then just come back again (I think).
> 
> Sounds like even the immigration officials (according to that article) are not always sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no 180 day a year rule for visitors to the UK - Free Movement
> 
> 
> Staying in the UK for ages on a visit visa can cause problems, but there is no specific rule against visiting for more than 180 days in any given year.
> 
> 
> 
> www.freemovement.org.uk


Surely this is only of interest if you were a European wishing to stay in the UK. There are many inconsistencies in what can cross the Channel, of which this is just one.


----------



## Kontiki

I did see somewhere that the 90 day limit also applies to expats even if they have residency in that they can stay indefinitely in the country where they have residency but travelling to other schengen area countries then counts towards the 90 in 180 days. This I think would be difficult for them to find out unless you are working if you are just travelling how would they know.
As for getting the schengen rules changed good luck with that, my days of long stays are probably over so 90 days works fine for me I just feel sorry for the newly retired who could just travel through europe at will.


----------



## barryd

antiquesam said:


> Surely this is only of interest if you were a European wishing to stay in the UK. There are many inconsistencies in what can cross the Channel, of which this is just one.



I was trying to discover the differences after discussing with Witzend whether or not after six months the Europeans have to stay out of the UK for 180 days or not.  As said its as clear as mud. It seems though the Europeans have a much better deal for access to the UK than we have for access to Europe.

The simple answer would just be to just allow freedom of movement across the UK and Europe for all Europeans for tourist travel or maybe education with controls in place for work purposes providing you can prove you are self sufficient and not likely to become a burden on the state.  It wont happen though. Not enough interest.


----------



## witzend

barryd said:


> I was trying to discover the differences after discussing with Witzend whether or not after six months the Europeans have to stay out of the UK for 180 days or not.  As said its as clear as mud. It seems though the Europeans have a much better deal for access to the UK than we have for access to Europe.



Thats the question Barry 6 mths away is ok but 6 mths before return isn't much good so we need to be careful what we wish for


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## colinm

I would say 180 days per 360 gives a bit more flexibility than 90 in 180, but whatever it's hardly likely to change.


----------



## Colinc

antiquesam said:


> The French cannot defy the Schengen Agreement. It must be a unanimous decision to change. We have permitted European citizens to stay in the UK longer but that was our decision for our benefit.



Any Schengen country, France included, can set their own visa rules and allow extended stays.  That does not require a treaty change it is already permitted.  They can only set rules for their own country.     Some already do.  Many are going to make such visa easier for Brits to apply for.    So these petitions are worth while - although getting tourist and retired person monies may be a bigger motivator.


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## antiquesam

Colinc said:


> Any Schengen country, France included, can set their own visa rules and allow extended stays.  That does not require a treaty change it is already permitted.  They can only set rules for their own country.     Some already do.  Many are going to make such visa easier for Brits to apply for.    So these petitions are worth while - although getting tourist and retired person monies may be a bigger motivator.


Having read a lot of pieces on-line I wish you luck on this one.


----------



## PatsyE1956

Channelcrosser said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just started the petition "Extend 90 day schengen area stay" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.
> 
> This campaign means a lot to me and the more support we can get behind it, the better chance we have of succeeding. You can read more and sign the petition here:
> 
> https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...39-494b-842a-9f3279d57d8b&source=&utm_source=
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Can you also take a moment to share the petition with others? It's really easy – all you need to do is forward this email or share this link on Facebook or Twitter:


----------



## PatsyE1956

Signed and shared.  Keeping fingers crossed.


----------



## Glass man

Do contact tourist authorities in other countries for support. 
I'm sure the Algarve and Southern Spanish areas would support a proposal for long winter stays.


----------



## Colinc

antiquesam said:


> Having read a lot of pieces on-line I wish you luck on this one.



You said it would require treaty change. That is not true. It only requires willing by each country. That, I grant you may be hard, but not impossible.

I am applying for visas in Greece as soon as Covid allows.  There is active talk of making it easier too In the Greek legislature.


----------



## John H

Colinc said:


> Any Schengen country, France included, can set their own visa rules and allow extended stays.  That does not require a treaty change it is already permitted.  They can only set rules for their own country.     Some already do.  Many are going to make such visa easier for Brits to apply for.    So these petitions are worth while - although getting tourist and retired person monies may be a bigger motivator.


The problem is that an extended visa for any member country is a time-consuming and expensive process (which has to be completed before you leave your home country) and which is by no means guaranteed to succeed. You say there is talk of some countries making it easier but if they make it too easy then that will probably be considered simply as a way of getting round Schengen and not allowed. Those of us who would like to stay more than 90 days are not a large number - we may be important in the economy of a few campsites and local shops but on the wider scene we are economically insignificant, so don't expect great pressure from within to change the rules.


----------



## REC

The removal of freedom of movement was what many who voted for Brexit wanted....just saying


----------



## REC

***** said:


> An interesting read
> 
> how-to-legally-stay-in-europe-for-more-than-90-days


Its an interesting read but as the author is american, possibly less applicable to Uk citizen who would have passport logged in France or at arrival airport, especially since Brexit. I think there may be a little animosity towards Uk which may mean it is more strictly enforced. But then US have been a third country for years so maybe it shows, the EU will be kind to us in the end? Love the pointer to work permits for those "even as old as 35Years"...I wish!


----------



## Colinc

John H said:


> we may be important in the economy of a few campsites and local shops but on the wider scene we are economically insignificant, so don't expect great pressure from within to change the rules.



You have to add the economic drive from the yachting and second home tribes too.  In some parts that is significant.


----------



## John H

Colinc said:


> You have to add the economic drive from the yachting and second home tribes too.  In some parts that is significant.


In some parts, yes - but not in the overall scheme of things


----------



## Tookey

Colinc said:


> You have to add the economic drive from the yachting and second home tribes too.  In some parts that is significant.


Second homes are terrible for local economies, just look at our West Country. They want the 'go on a bender' 2 week crew and they will still get them


----------



## Colinc

Seem to be quite a few naysays here.   OK - let me give you an example....

For us the key country is Greece.  We spent a fair bit of time there and so have/had temporary residents permits - pretty easy before Brexit.  However the problem is continuing those post Brexit as the rules are tighter and, we thought, required at least six months in Greece and paying Greek taxes.   However we've just learnt that the Greek government is interpreting the law to say you only have to be in Greece for part of the year, six months not required. To make it even easier you only have to reapply every five years.   That is quite a concession and look like it will mean we can keep the Greek resident cards indefinitely.     That then gives us the right to travel freely in the rest of the EU too.  

So for anyone that can prove long stays in Greece prior to end of 2021 this is pretty good news.

This "interpretation" is a direct result of campaigning by Brits.   I know they are also looking at a long stay visa too.   The second home and yachting income is pretty important to many parts of Greece.

Don't know about other countries so much ... but I can think of a few - Spain for example.


----------



## John H

Colinc said:


> Seem to be quite a few naysays here.   OK - let me give you an example....
> 
> For us the key country is Greece.  We spent a fair bit of time there and so have/had temporary residents permits - pretty easy before Brexit.  However the problem is continuing those post Brexit as the rules are tighter and, we thought, required at least six months in Greece and paying Greek taxes.   However we've just learnt that the Greek government is interpreting the law to say you only have to be in Greece for part of the year, six months not required. To make it even easier you only have to reapply every five years.   That is quite a concession and look like it will mean we can keep the Greek resident cards indefinitely.     That then gives us the right to travel freely in the rest of the EU too.
> 
> So for anyone that can prove long stays in Greece prior to end of 2021 this is pretty good news.
> 
> This "interpretation" is a direct result of campaigning by Brits.   I know they are also looking at a long stay visa too.   The second home and yachting income is pretty important to many parts of Greece.
> 
> Don't know about other countries so much ... but I can think of a few - Spain for example.



Good news for those with residency but the fact remains that, as a proportion of total tourist income, this is insignificant.


----------



## Tookey

Colinc said:


> Seem to be quite a few naysays here.   OK - let me give you an example....
> 
> For us the key country is Greece.  We spent a fair bit of time there and so have/had temporary residents permits - pretty easy before Brexit.  However the problem is continuing those post Brexit as the rules are tighter and, we thought, required at least six months in Greece and paying Greek taxes.   However we've just learnt that the Greek government is interpreting the law to say you only have to be in Greece for part of the year, six months not required. To make it even easier you only have to reapply every five years.   That is quite a concession and look like it will mean we can keep the Greek resident cards indefinitely.     That then gives us the right to travel freely in the rest of the EU too.
> 
> So for anyone that can prove long stays in Greece prior to end of 2021 this is pretty good news.
> 
> This "interpretation" is a direct result of campaigning by Brits.   I know they are also looking at a long stay visa too.   The second home and yachting income is pretty important to many parts of Greece.
> 
> Don't know about other countries so much ... but I can think of a few - Spain for example.


This is interesting and would make a difference to European travel if other countries follow suit as it basically says that EU countries might look for loopholes in the system

Can you provide a link to a reliable source that this is a solid proposal?


----------



## Pudsey Bear

Did.


----------



## Tookey

Pudsey Bear said:


> Did.


Been back through thread and missed it again, which post? Only reliable EU travel sources I can find that is solid is we have 90 days, nothing about individual countries petitioning Brussels to allow extended visits. One of the reasons we chose to leave is Brussels rules the roost and if Brussels says its 90 days then that won't change (granted this is only my opinion). Not dismissing Colin's post about citizenship that he might be eligible for, only the other 99% of us


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## Tookey

........and I really hope I am wrong


----------



## REC

Colinc said:


> Seem to be quite a few naysays here.   OK - let me give you an example....
> 
> For us the key country is Greece.  We spent a fair bit of time there and so have/had temporary residents permits - pretty easy before Brexit.  However the problem is continuing those post Brexit as the rules are tighter and, we thought, required at least six months in Greece and paying Greek taxes.   However we've just learnt that the Greek government is interpreting the law to say you only have to be in Greece for part of the year, six months not required. To make it even easier you only have to reapply every five years.   That is quite a concession and look like it will mean we can keep the Greek resident cards indefinitely.     *That then gives us the right to travel freely in the rest of the EU too. *
> 
> So for anyone that can prove long stays in Greece prior to end of 2021 this is pretty good news.
> 
> This "interpretation" is a direct result of campaigning by Brits.   I know they are also looking at a long stay visa too.   The second home and yachting income is pretty important to many parts of Greece.
> 
> Don't know about other countries so much ... but I can think of a few - Spain for example.


Colin, not sure that residency in one EU country gives the right of freedom of movement in all the EU. In Portugal, we had to change our resident permit from one which says EU citizen to one which says Portuguese resident. We retain UK passports so do not qualify for freedom of movement unless we take full Portuguese citizenship. It is renewable every five years and we can apply for full citizenship at any time.
As stated before, it is hard to see how this be enforced and checked in other EU countries but it could be. Will certainly be clear from entry in France and exit through France where passports are logged. But unless borders are reinstated, proving that one stayed in resident country only could be tricky. However, with digital recognition of number plates it _could_ be possible..
Have you a link which specifically states about freedom of movement comes with Greek residency rather than with Greek citizenship? It would be useful in our circumstances as may be applicable.


----------



## REC

Tookey said:


> Been back through thread and missed it again, which post? Only reliable EU travel sources I can find that is solid is we have 90 days, nothing about individual countries petitioning Brussels to allow extended visits. One of the reasons we chose to leave is Brussels rules the roost and if Brussels says its 90 days then that won't change (granted this is only my opinion). Not dismissing Colin's post about citizenship that he might be eligible for, only the other 99% of us


Personally, I feel it is only going to happen for those who take citizenship and get a EU passport ( possible to have dual citizenship) but some could have an extended stay in one country and get temporary residence in that country, and then travel for the 90 days total in the rest of area.


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## Colinc

Attached is the PDF email from the Greek Ministry of Foreign affairs.    So if you have a temporary residence you can keep it pretty well indefinitely as long as your return to Greece withing the five years.   This is how they are interpreting EU law.

Having a residency card gives freedom to travel within the EU.   Currently passports are not stamped on entry or exit if you have such a card.

This is quite a result.   And IMHO there will be other further concessions in Greece and potentially other EU countries.


----------



## Colinc

REC said:


> Colin, not sure that residency in one EU country gives the right of freedom of movement in all the EU.



I think this is still to be properly established.   The current practice is not to stamp passports of UK citizens with such retained rights.   It remains to see how this develops.   As you say there is little to stop you crossing the internal borders without being checked.   Even car number-plate scanners do not record who is in the car.    

Even if they do clamp down on this then unlimited time in your favorite country plus 90 days in 180 for the rest will be far better than only 90 in 180 for everywhere.   If that happened then we would do long shuttles back and forth from the UK to Greece - resetting the clock at both ends.

And if you can't get residency in any EU country then I believe more will offer easy-to-get long visit visas.   Here is one I just spotted for Italy....








						Entry requirements and Visas for British citizens from 1 January 2021
					

Entry requirements and Visas for British citizens from 1 January 2021




					conslondra.esteri.it


----------



## John H

Colinc said:


> I think this is still to be properly established.   The current practice is not to stamp passports of UK citizens with such retained rights.   It remains to see how this develops.   As you say there is little to stop you crossing the internal borders without being checked.   Even car number-plate scanners do not record who is in the car.
> 
> Even if they do clamp down on this then unlimited time in your favorite country plus 90 days in 180 for the rest will be far better than only 90 in 180 for everywhere.   If that happened then we would do long shuttles back and forth from the UK to Greece - resetting the clock at both ends.
> 
> And if you can't get residency in any EU country then I believe more will offer easy-to-get long visit visas.   Here is one I just spotted for Italy....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entry requirements and Visas for British citizens from 1 January 2021
> 
> 
> Entry requirements and Visas for British citizens from 1 January 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> conslondra.esteri.it



I'm sorry but I don't see anything in there that makes a long stay visa easier. In fact, "tourism" is not given as a reason for granting a long stay visa at all. All EU states offer long stay visas but all are difficult to get, time consuming and expensive, with no guarantee of success. If any member state does attempt to make it easier (and I have seen no evidence that any are thinking of this) then Schengen may veto it as a way of getting round the 90 day rule. As far as I can see, the only way we will be able to spend extended winters around the Med in future is by throwing in a couple of months in Morocco, Tunisia or Egypt.


----------



## Tookey

....and Croatia but no wildcamping   . 90 days in Turkey without a visa which is godsend for my plans, phew 

Turkey actually encourage wildcamping 






						Error 404 | Go Turkey Tourism
					

404 error page.




					www.goturkeytourism.com


----------



## Colinc

Here is a great Q&A put out by the 180 Days in Greece.   It gives chapter and verse on the current situation on residence permits and visas to stay in Greece for more than 90 days.   It is still improving and I have another email from the Greek Ministry promising a long stay visa.  No details on that yet.

I'm sure these efforts are being repeated in other EU countries.   So my only message is that to say "it isn't worth it as nothing will change" is self evidently false.  These groups are achieving much ... and still more to do.

So I just ask not to just dismiss this, as that is counterproductive.    There are full anti-change groups - such as one group of permanent residents in Greece that came from the UK years ago - that are campaigning to STOP others from getting these concessions.  Apparently they fear it will erode their own rights.

So if you want to be able to do long tours in Europe please help.  If not fine - but some others do.


----------



## Tookey

Colinc said:


> Here is a great Q&A put out by the 180 Days in Greece.   It gives chapter and verse on the current situation on residence permits and visas to stay in Greece for more than 90 days.   It is still improving and I have another email from the Greek Ministry promising a long stay visa.  No details on that yet.
> 
> I'm sure these efforts are being repeated in other EU countries.   So my only message is that to say "it isn't worth it as nothing will change" is self evidently false.  These groups are achieving much ... and still more to do.
> 
> So I just ask not to just dismiss this, as that is counterproductive.    There are full anti-change groups - such as one group of permanent residents in Greece that came from the UK years ago - that are campaigning to STOP others from getting these concessions.  Apparently they fear it will erode their own rights.
> 
> So if you want to be able to do long tours in Europe please help.  If not fine - but some others do.


Good luck and keep us informed please, I do love the food over there


----------



## John H

Tookey said:


> ....and Croatia but no wildcamping   . 90 days in Turkey without a visa which is godsend for my plans, phew
> 
> Turkey actually encourage wildcamping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Error 404 | Go Turkey Tourism
> 
> 
> 404 error page.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.goturkeytourism.com



True - but too cold for me in winter. I think I'll stick with the Morocco option unless and until the pressure groups succeed in getting changes made to the 90 day rule and/or make it easier to get long stay visas


----------



## Colinc

A further update on getting a Greek resident visa.  Greece has announced it accepts proof of temporary residence in Greece in applying for a permit.  In other words, you can have been transient in the country without a fixed address - so a motor home tour will be fine.  You do need some evidence of if however - but that isn't too hard.   So if you have been on tour there in 2020 you can consider this option.   Not just for second home and boat owners.


----------



## Mick H

Another thread, that has developed into political views being posted, mainly by the same people!
Please stop it, it's against the forum rules. Lets stick to motorhoming, in general, and wildcamping, in particular.


----------



## trevskoda

mariesnowgoose said:


> I'm seriously thinking of applying for an Irish passport (I'm eligible).
> 
> Would love to move to Europe, but figuring we might have missed the boat - by 'we' I mean 'me' and t'other half.
> Anyone who is young and fit enough might want to consider moving out of the UK.
> This is nothing sudden or new, I've been saying that to youngsters for a long time now.


I can help you move in.


----------



## witzend

Everybody may not want to stay for 180 days away then 180 before return and prefer 90 days away then 90 days before return  Myself I'd be happy to leave it as it is have 90 days then stay home June July August then have another 90.
Another thing if just say Greece or Portugal allows 180 how will we manage because we start in France and finish in France


----------



## GeoffL

witzend said:


> Everybody may not want to stay for 180 days away then 180 before return and prefer 90 days away then 90 days before return  Myself I'd be happy to leave it as it is have 90 days then stay home June July August then have another 90.
> Another thing if just say Greece or Portugal allows 180 how will we manage because we start in France and finish in France


Am I missing something here? Doesn't up to 180 days in any 360 day rolling period with 180 day maximum stay allow 90 days in any 180 day rolling period? IOW, I would have thought you could continue having 90 days, then go home for 90 and then back to Schengen for another 90 and then back home for another 90 as you would then have spent 180 days total in 360 days with no stay exceeding 180 days...


----------



## Snapster

witzend said:


> Another thing if just say Greece or Portugal allows 180 how will we manage because we start in France and finish in France


I don’t understand how you would be able to. I think the proposed 180 day stays will be aimed at air travellers. The whole Schengen zone will need to changes their rules to allow you to travel through other countries in the zone to get to Portugal ( or Greece)


----------



## jacquigem

My understanding is that you have to treat  the whole Schengen zone as one big "country". You are allowed 90 days in in any 180 day period. I reckon you will be picked up at airports, ports, tunnel and any other land borders (possibly not Northern Ireland at the moment of the whole Schengen zone. Transiting thru different Schengen countries is counted towards the 90 day limit.


----------



## GMJ

It's a rolling 180 day period so as days 'drop off' new days can be added.

It is manageable for us..just!! But we'll have to be careful as we normally like c.66 days in Jan-Mar and then 30-ish days in May. Now we'll have to slightly curtail one/both of the trips to ensure the whole doesn't go over the 90 days.

We also like to go away in Sept too but by then the Jan-Mar days will have 'dropped off'...but the we need to consider them for the following years Jan-Mar trip!!

The easiest solution is for us to only have 60 days in Jan-Mar so we can then enjoy 30 days in May and again in Sept!

Anyway I'm new/late to this thread so have just signed the petition and have also emailed it out to family members.


----------



## REC

John H said:


> I'm sorry but I don't see anything in there that makes a long stay visa easier. In fact, "tourism" is not given as a reason for granting a long stay visa at all. All EU states offer long stay visas but all are difficult to get, time consuming and expensive, with no guarantee of success. If any member state does attempt to make it easier (and I have seen no evidence that any are thinking of this) then Schengen may veto it as a way of getting round the 90 day rule. As far as I can see, the only way we will be able to spend extended winters around the Med in future is by throwing in a couple of months in Morocco, Tunisia or Egypt.


Portugal do not currently offer a long stay visa except for specific reasons like work.


----------



## witzend

Snapster said:


> I don’t understand how you would be able to. I think the proposed 180 day stays will be aimed at air travellers. The whole Schengen zone will need to changes their rules to allow you to travel through other countries in the zone to get to Portugal ( or Greece)


Thats the way I see it working as well these country's are after the majority that travel by air motorhomes aren't even considered. Portugal has made it obvious were not wanted by their new law banning off site parking


----------

