# A call to arms!



## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

:mad2:

Does anyone have the right to segregate, isolate, discriminate and downgrade any part of society? I felt so angry when I read the notice @ the Whitby Pavilion giving notice to all motorhome owners that the Council intend banning motorhomes from over 60 car parks throughout North Yorkshire! The notice asks anyone with any objections to the proposed ban to write to: 

Brian Bennet
Head of Tourism and culture
Town Hall
St Nicolas street
Scarborough
YO11 2HG

No later than 30th July with any objections to the ban on motorhomes at over 60 Car parks and wild camping spots around North Yorkshire. 

Is everyone aware of this proposed ban? 

This is seriously overstepping the mark I feel. What do you all feel? Will you take time to write to Brian and express your feelings? Its imperative to us all that we make a stand against those with the power to ban!

'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes', ....  Who will guard the guards themselves


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## Romahomepete (Jul 10, 2012)

Anyone wanting to email Brian Bennett, his email address is here: brian.bennett@scarborough.gov.uk


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## julie1 (Jul 10, 2012)

What about an on line petition? I don't know how difficult it is to set up but I'm sure someone on here who is computer savvy could advise.
Other than that I don't mind e-mailing.
Julie

p.s how will people go on that live in the area and use a mh as their only form of transport? There may not be many but it would be really difficult for them.


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## Somelier (Jul 10, 2012)

Email sent.


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## Minisorella (Jul 10, 2012)

Here are a couple of links to free petition sites.  If you Google "online petitions uk" you'll find lots.

Petition Online - UK

United Kingdom Petitions - Petition Listings from United Kingdom - GoPetition

Good luck


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## Kath (Jul 10, 2012)

In principal it is annoying but in reality I really coudn't give a monkey's. If these people are so blinkered as not to be able to see the business revenue we bring to their towns, then they are not worth the effort complaining to. One thing for sure, I will not be driven into their over priced camp sites ( which is what it is all about) I will simply go else where.
There are enough enlightened Councils now beginning to cater for motorhomes, even if their over priced attempts to copy the French Aires are a little off putting.
Scarborough and Whitby have been off the list for a while now!


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

> when I read the notice @ the Whitby Pavilion giving notice to all motorhome owners that the Council intend banning motorhomes from over 60 car parks throughout North Yorkshire!



Does the Whitby Pavilion notice list the carparks?
If the ban is accross North Yorkshire, it's North Yorkshire County Council and all the District and Borough Councils that need to be lobbied, not just Scarborough.


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## antiquesam (Jul 10, 2012)

I am confused, how can the Director of Leisure and Culture of Scarborough Council have the right to close virtually all the car parks and presumably laybys in North Yorkshire to Motorhomes? This is a sweeping ban.


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## Yogihughes (Jul 10, 2012)

If I lived in that area and owned a MH I would be very upset indeed.
As it stands, it will not affect me very much here in Scotland. We have already suffered here by more stringent rules being applied around the Loch Lomond and Trossachs areas due to the mindless activities of inconsiderate "campers".
More and more areas will become "out of bounds" to MHs/Campervans and the like as complaints against our community increase.
The only "weapon" in our inventory is to withdraw our "custom" from those areas and go elsewhere.


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## Canalsman (Jul 10, 2012)

Kath said:


> In principal it is annoying but in reality I really coudn't give a monkey's. If these people are so blinkered as not to be able to see the business revenue we bring to their towns, then they are not worth the effort complaining to. One thing for sure, I will not be driven into their over priced camp sites ( which is what it is all about) I will simply go else where.
> There are enough enlightened Councils now beginning to cater for motorhomes, even if their over priced attempts to copy the French Aires are a little off putting.
> Scarborough and Whitby have been off the list for a while now!



Absolutely!

If they wish to shoot themselves in the foot with a large calibre firearm, let them get on with it.

I hope it hurts!


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## zipnolan (Jul 10, 2012)

Senior officers and corporate structure | Scarborough Borough Council

Home | Scarborough Borough Council › Home › Council › Council Departments 

l Home | Scarborough Borough Council results

Head of Tourism and Culture Brian Bennett Dip ISRM Email: brian.bennett@scarborough.gov.uk Tel: 01723 232566. Search. A to Z of Services ...


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## John H (Jul 10, 2012)

antiquesam said:


> I am confused, how can the Director of Leisure and Culture of Scarborough Council have the right to close virtually all the car parks and presumably laybys in North Yorkshire to Motorhomes? This is a sweeping ban.



Scarborough Borough Council covers a very large area - including Whitby.


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## Northerner (Jul 10, 2012)

berniesbargreece said:


> :mad2:
> 
> Does anyone have the right to segregate, isolate, discriminate and downgrade any part of society? I felt so angry when I read the notice @ the Whitby Pavilion giving notice to all motorhome owners that the Council intend banning motorhomes from over 60 car parks throughout North Yorkshire!



Yes, some authorities do have the right to impose conditions such as this and not just in the U.K. I have given up trying to park in many French towns on the Mediterranean where height barriers proliferate. 

However, I'm unclear about the main and most important aspect of your post, which is: Are motorhomes to be banned from all car parks or just from overnighting on all car parks?


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

*Don't let them off the hook*



Kath said:


> In principal it is annoying but in reality I really coudn't give a monkey's. If these people are so blinkered as not to be able to see the business revenue we bring to their towns, then they are not worth the effort complaining to. One thing for sure, I will not be driven into their over priced camp sites ( which is what it is all about) I will simply go else where.
> There are enough enlightened Councils now beginning to cater for motorhomes, even if their over priced attempts to copy the French Aires are a little off putting.
> Scarborough and Whitby have been off the list for a while now!



Please DO give a monkies! We are all law abiding folk being bullied by those in power, this is wrong guys so please make an effort. If this were about humans and not machines there would be uproar! It's the same principal, it's about standing up for what is right. It does not matter where you live either, this is about freedom to travel without fear of oppression from anyone or anything. Send the same protest letter to your MP. This issue effects ANYONE WHO MAY VISIT THIS AREA OF THE UK! Please have the courage and sence to write to this guy demanding he drop this unlawful proposal. If you don't you really are letting the side down.


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## Firefox (Jul 10, 2012)

I would say email.

The e-petitions are a waste of time.

Also word of mouth is important. We bring money and custom to these areas in a responsible manner. Simply tell fellow motorhomers, caravanners and friends what a bunch of unreasonable people they are. Our friends can make their own decision to go elsewhere if they see fit. Let's reduce the area tourist income by 5 or 10%. 

It's not big a deal, other places will benefit instead, and the council will have the opportunity to review their decisions and decide if they are right for the local economy.


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## Northerner (Jul 10, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I would say email.
> 
> The e-petitions are a waste of time.
> 
> ...



Reduce the tourist income by five or ten percent? Where do you get these figures from? Motorhomers overnighting on car parks probably account for more like .00000005 percent of the area's tourist income and if you think that your non-motorhoming friends will care less about the issue and stop going to Scarborough for instance just because you're unhappy with the town, then I think you're very mistaken.

I can just imagine if I brought up the subject at the pub and asked them all to boycott Scarborough because I can't park my 'van there for nothing overnight. They'd tell me to bugger off!

If you're going to start mounting an offensive against some local authorities it might be a good idea to actually understand how important your business is to them. And quite frankly, we're not that important to them! I'm all for a serious campaign to get some kind of compromise but quoting figures like this just makes us look silly.


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## Felix (Jul 10, 2012)

I have just emailed Brian Bennett and explained to him that my wife is disabled and cannot use public facilities; and, that, by stopping motorhomes using carparks he is banning my wife from visiting his area. Is this what he wants for her and others. 
I await his reply.


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## Firefox (Jul 10, 2012)

I'd say motorhomers count for a few percent of the tourist income, caravanners and tenters more, and hotels etc the majority.

A facebook campaign and email campaign will not put the council in a favourable light and may make them think twice. Going down the pub is the out of date way; you reach very few people. Things happen quickly on facebook, twitter, and email.

In the recent attempt to close Byway 12 to Motorcaravans and other vehicles at Stonehenge by Wiltshire County Council, hundreds and thousands of objections by email to WCC and at the public enquiry were generated by electronic canvassing and groups on the net. 

This resulted in the decision to close Byway 12 being overturned by the enquiry. Thus proving that internet pressure can work.


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Reduce the tourist income by five or ten percent? Where do you get these figures from? Motorhomers overnighting on car parks probably account for more like .00000005 percent of the area's tourist income and if you think that your non-motorhoming friends will care less about the issue and stop going to Scarborough for instance just because you're unhappy with the town, then I think you're very mistaken.
> 
> I can just imagine if I brought up the subject at the pub and asked them all to boycott Scarborough because I can't park my 'van there for nothing overnight. They'd tell me to bugger off!
> 
> If you're going to start mounting an offensive against some local authorities it might be a good idea to actually understand how important your business is to them. And quite frankly, we're not that important to them! I'm all for a serious campaign to get some kind of compromise but quoting figures like this just makes us look silly.



Its true, I spend very little where ever I visit. Thats the whole idea of a motorhome. I hate being vulnerable to rubbish restaurants/B&B's over priced campsites that are charging £15-20 per night to park in a field. Why would I want to do that when I don't have to? I believe my motorhome is a sound investment that allows me freedom to travel, cook my own food that I know I love! To shower in a shower I know is clean, sleep in a bed that I know is comfortable and clean. It gives me independence from business. Its wrong to believe boycotting areas will hurt anyone. This is about standing up for whats right... the freedom to travel to any town and expect the SAME courtesy and laws to be applied across the board. If this council demanded that only white, black or asian people park in certain car parks after 11pm there would be hell on! WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE? WE ARE BEING SEGREGATED, AND DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE WE DONT FIT IN WITH THEIR BUSINESS COMMUNITY. They can ban motorhomes from town centres as long as there are 50 FREE allocated spaces near by for MOTORHOMES only. I don't mind a 5 minute bike ride into town?


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

> that the Council intend banning motorhomes from over 60 car parks throughout North Yorkshire! The notice asks anyone with any objections to the proposed ban to write to:




This is not the case.

Just been to Whitby and read the notice at Westcliffe (only 2 on display, both in the in the Pay and Display Carparks).

The notice lists 62 Carparks under SBCs control, but the notice only pertains to 15 of them and only bans Motorhomes from them between the hours of 11pm and 7am.








The notice does not mention on road parking restrictions and the only notices on Westcliffe are the unenforcible no sleeping ones.


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## Bigpeetee (Jul 10, 2012)

E.mail sent

I may not be the best at writing a letter, but here is my mail:

Mr Bennett,

re the proposed banning of motorhomes.

I feel that any ban is not taking a long term positive approach to tourism.

Every area should be encouraging ANY form of tourism, but why concentrate on Motorhomes?

If you feel that the free parking of a motorhome reduces income from hotels or campsites, that is maybe as if you are aware of the requirements of a motorhome, you will realise that they do not require the facilities offered by either a hotel or campsite.

Are you concerned about someone getting something for free?? if so I presume you will remove all of the picnic tables from your area as they are stopping restaurants and cafés gaining an income. They are after all, getting something for free.

If you were to be an enlightened council, you would offer at low rate or free facilities for the growing number of motorhomes rather than turn them away. Believe it or not, we do spend in the towns we visit, but perhaps distribute our wealth in a different manner. Many authorities across Europe actively encourage motorhomes to stay and spend money in their locality.

I appreciate that there will be a small minority who abuse any service that a council provides, but a blanket ban on motorhomes is a totally negative attitude.

I presume the council has an equal opportunities policy along with an anti discrimination policy, surely by banning a single class of vehicle will go against both of these policies??

In order to discuss further please forward:

1. The proposal to ban motorhomes and the rationale behind these proposals.
2. The councils Equal Opportunities Policy
3. The councils anti discrimination policy
4. The proposed cost of implementing such a ban including any works to be undertaken.


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

John H said:


> Scarborough Borough Council covers a very large area - including Whitby.




Indeed it does, but it only covers small part of North Yorkshire.







For those that don't know the area, SBC is the one with the long coastline.

And as I said in my previous post, only 15 carparks in that area are subject to the notice.


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

*Something to say??*



groyne said:


> This is not the case.
> 
> Just been to Whitby and read the notice at Westcliffe (only 2 on display, both in the in the Pay and Display Carparks).
> 
> ...



Something to say? I am confused my friend. Are the council trying to ban motorhomes? Is this notice something we should not fear? Am I missing something here? What is your point? Please help as I am missing something? Something to say?


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

*Something to say??*



groyne said:


> Indeed it does, but it only covers small part of North Yorkshire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only 15 car parks??!! WELL THATS ALL RIGHT THEN!! I THOUGHT WE HAD A PROBLEM!! 

Please explain what I am missing here? Do you work for the Council? Are you a B&B owner my friend?


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## keithhep (Jul 10, 2012)

From the photo of the sign it seems the OP somewhat over stated the fact of a complete parking ban.

On the sign from another member the car parks affected are listed, and there is not 60 of them.


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

> Something to say? I am confused my friend.



That is part of my Sig, aimed at those who browse but never seem to contribute to the Forum and the full quote is "Haven't you got something to say?"

But to the point of the parking notice, the relevant part is shown in the photo, it says;

"The amendment of schedule A to the Order to prohibit Motorcaravans between 11pm and 7am on Carparks 4,8,9,15,21,22,28,32,34,44,48,49,50,53,58"

Which means of the 62 carparks listed only 15 are subject to the above order.

To put simply you cannot park in these carparks between the hours of 11pm and 7am, any other times you are OK to park subject to any other restrictions such as weight etc.

Is that any clearer?


Also as I put in my post this Order does not affect on road parking.


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## Northerner (Jul 10, 2012)

berniesbargreece said:


> Only 15 car parks??!! WELL THATS ALL RIGHT THEN!! I THOUGHT WE HAD A PROBLEM!!
> 
> Please explain what I am missing here? Do you work for the Council? Are you a B&B owner my friend?



I think that the point is pretty obvious. You are claiming that the council is banning motorhomes from 60 car parks and you do not differentiate between overnighting and parking during the day, despite me asking you exactly what you were referring to.

It now turns out that this is wrong and we are not being barred from parking on any car park and that it's overnighting that's being banned on just fifteen car parks. If you want people to start protesting to the council then they're going to look pretty silly if they accuse the council of doing something that it hasn't done!

And all your talk about segregation and prejudice and discrimination and comparing this to banning Asians is really over the top. Motorhomes and caravans are banned in many place and often for a good reason. Should travellers and tinkers be allowed to park wherever they like or is that being prejudiced and discriminatory? Should campers be allowed to pitch their tents in the park, or is that discrimination?


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## dodge2transit (Jul 10, 2012)

that will teach me from not reading a thread all the way to the last as just sent a stinking email of  with i will have to send a apology as mis read the thread on here, god dam it,:mad1:
 my folt....


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

dodge2transit said:


> that will teach me from not reading a thread all the way to the last as just sent a stinking email of  with i will have to send a apology as mis read the thread on here, god dam it,:mad1:
> my folt....



And that is why I drove to Whitby earlier today ( I also wanted to visit Whitby Angling) to see first hand exactly what the notices said and where they were located.


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 10, 2012)

*Many thanks*



groyne said:


> And that is why I drove to Whitby earlier today ( I also wanted to visit Whitby Angling) to see first hand exactly what the notices said and where they were located.



You have made a very valid point. Well done.

1 Ban is 1 ban too many.


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## groyne (Jul 10, 2012)

berniesbargreece said:


> You have made a very valid point. Well done.
> .



Thankyou, I'll take that as an apology.




> 1 Ban is 1 ban too many



I agree, but before calling for an all out revolution I think it's best to find out exactly what we're fighting for.

And for the record;

1) I don't work for SBC.

2) I don't own a B&B.

I'm originally from "the Boro" ( and yes I did live in the Cannon St area, went to both St Pats, lived over the road from one of them) so I know how "yous" lot can easily get excited.


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## maureenandtom (Jul 10, 2012)

We already knew of this.   http://democracy.scarborough.gov.uk/documents/s43629/12332 - Motorhomes - 20120627.pdf.   Paragraph 3.13.   

One of the threads about it is http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/13727-scarborough-traders-complain.html

The situation in Scarborough as I understand some of it is that off-street parking is under the control of Scarborough council.  On-street parking is under the control of North Yorks District Council.   We are concerned here only with off-street parking.

In addition to the banning of some o/n parking, paragraph 3.8 of the linked document proposes a one year trial of permitted overnight parking at three car parks.  Chargeable at £10 a night.  We've seen elsewhere that this charge has been referred back to the committee responsible for these things, in the next day to two I think, so it looks possible that the fee is still not yet fixed and there is no change to the rules at other car parks.

The definition of camping is given in paragraph 3.4 but where the definition comes from isn't shown.   Any barrack room lawyers (or the more respectable kind) to shed light on whether this definition is valid?  Can we provide our own equally valid definition?

Paragraph 3.12 defines what is a motor caravan.  The source of that definition is also vague.
Any (barrack room or other) lawyer shed light on that validity please?  

In an email of 24th August 2011 Jane Wilson, deputy parking manager and presumably speaking authoritatively, contradicts this;  she said:
_
As there isn’t a vehicle class definition for motorhomes, it would not be possible in legal terms to differentiate between motorhomes and other car park users, even if the Council wished to allow that, which they don’t._

It seems that, when you want a definition, you can find one.  Or can you?   Can you just change your mind on these things almost on a whim?

I'm fairly certain I don't want to argue with the council over this.  I think they're on the way to providing Aires for motorhomes.  I want to see this happen.   I realise that many do not.


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## Firefox (Jul 10, 2012)

I do try to spend in the local area if I can, especially a rural one. Obviously not campsites, but things like pubs, tearooms and local village shops which are vital to the local comminity. Passing trade can make a real difference and it's nice if we use a rural area, to be able to contribute to its economy.


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## BrianG (Jul 10, 2012)

My motorhome IS my only vehicle and I am always being frustrated and angered by the number of car parks with height barriers. Is there a REALLY Valid need for these at all? If the carpark is very small and only suitable for cars OK. I'm not going to try to squeeze in there anyway. If there is plenty of room, what is the problem?
By the way is it correct that some car parks in Blackpool have an overnight parking charge for motorhomes? Just thinking I've never seen the illuminations,


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## sean rua (Jul 10, 2012)

" Should travellers and tinkers be allowed to park wherever they like or is that being prejudiced and discriminatory?": asked Northener.

My answer to the first part is "yes", provided the place is a traditional atchin tan or halting site and is on common land ( which is mighty *uncommon* since the restrictive legislation of the Sixties).:sad:

 Failing alternative provision, we have to go wherever we can get - just like the swallows and the geese.


As to the second part of the question, I have no idea. It's not a bother.

 Getting back to the original topic, my own view is that petitioning etc will prove a complete waste of time and effort.
 As traffic increases and the Recession starts to bite deeper and deeper, the authorities ( councillors and MPs) are unlikely to be too fussed about helping a very small minority of visitors, whom they know are unlikely to be entitled to vote in any elections in which  they have to fight.

As I predicted before, motorhome camping will become more and more difficult day by day. This will be for a whole host of factors, and I regret to say that democratic rights and the niceties of points of law will just not figure in the grand scheme of things, imo.

Despite this opinion and prediction, I shall not stand in the way of those who feel the need to make some sort of protest and effort, but, in practical terms, I'm afraid you can include me out on this one.

I do hope you achieve what you desire! :goodluck:


sean rua.

" Ignorance is Treatable; Arrogance is Terminal."


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## al n sal (Jul 10, 2012)

h


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## ivecotrucker (Jul 10, 2012)

My objection to "Report of the head of tourism & culture - 12/332" now registered. Pointless I know but just exercising my democratic rights whilst we still have them (no polemical comments please !).


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## Lee (Jul 10, 2012)

Is Scarborough such a wonderful place to visit?
Is it worth all the discussion about parking.
Can't you just park in the town during the day and then find a wild camping spot or a pub for the night.
Isn't life short enough without worrying about Scarborough.


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## Northerner (Jul 11, 2012)

al n sal said:


> I'm still happy to not spend fuel and definitely not any time or money visiting a place or area that doesn't want my custom, unless I'm happy to be bullied into using an over priced campsite belonging to a fat greedy councilor.
> i don't know about my comments being racist, but it is probably fat councillor-ist.



And people wonder why we're not wanted and disliked by many people. Who's bullied you into using a campsite? How do you know that they're overpriced? Which councillor owns a campsite? If such a person existed what has his weight got to do with it? If I were a councillor I wouldn't want anyone with views like yours 100 miles from my town. They simply show that you are unreasonable, selfish and care nothing for anyone else. You should read the post earlier in this thread where one member admits that he spends as little as possible whenever he goes anywhere!

Has it ever occurred to you that councillors act on the wishes of their constituents and that maybe the residents of Scarborough are sick to death of free-loading motorhomers who think that they've the God-given right to park anywhere just because they've spent a few grand on a campervan? Just for once in your life try to see things from other people's point of view. The way to address a problem such as this is with reasonable discussion and putting forward intelligent arguments, not silly rants that have no basis in any facts.


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## northernspirit2001 (Jul 11, 2012)

email sent


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## ricc (Jul 11, 2012)

having just skimmeed through this thread i have a couple of observations

youve got to be accurate in any letter to the council .... having a rant about a blanket ban just makes you look silly if thats not what they are proposing.

in some ways emailing the officer in charge of the proposal is a waste of effort... its probably his pet scheme.... you need to get other council officers on side ... they will be far more effective opposition,   search the council departments... tourism, equal opportunities, discrimination, etc, even the cheif executive or the legal officer asking how it ties in with the councils policy on x,y,z..... do freedom of information requests to other departments which they have to answere... if you can get other departments pissed of with the work a daft proposal has caused your half way there.


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## John H (Jul 11, 2012)

al n sal said:


> I'm still happy to not spend fuel and definitely not any time or money visiting a place or area that doesn't want my custom, unless I'm happy to be bullied into using an over priced campsite belonging to a fat greedy councilor.
> i don't know about my comments being racist, but it is probably fat councillor-ist.



I totally agree with the first part of your post - there is absolutely no point in going where people don't want us as long as there are plenty of places we can go without causing any bother.

But as an ex-councillor who is probably a little overweight I would like to point out that I have never owned a campsite! :lol-053:


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## maureenandtom (Jul 11, 2012)

LeeLinda said:


> Is Scarborough such a wonderful place to visit?
> Is it worth all the discussion about parking.
> Can't you just park in the town during the day and then find a wild camping spot or a pub for the night.
> Isn't life short enough without worrying about Scarborough.



Well, when I was stationed in North Yorks 40 years ago, yes it was.   And there are enough motorhomers using the town now to (1) say that it is a wonderful place to visit and (2) to cause residents to worry about their numbers..

Yes, you can park in the town etc.

And yes, life is short enough without worrying about Scarborough - or anything else come to that.

The point is that Scarborough is trying to accommodate motorhomes to the satisfaction of Scarborough residents and, so their elected representatives say, to the satisfaction of motorhomers too.   It's arguable whether they're getting it right.   Any compromise upsets somebody.   They got the price wrong but it seems they're looking at that again.   But they're making the effort and they're using the popular Aires system to do it - as a one year trial.

After that year then I suppose they might cancel the trial or it might be a success and then, who knows, maybe service points included?

Now, for those who compliment the continental system, and that's pretty well all of us,  this is a start.  Scarborough, from my point of view, is not all that important.  Anywhere trying to institute the Aires system deserves to be helped because if one adopts the system (and others have done so already) then more can be persudaded to do so.  

I'd like to see a "Guide Official to British Aires de Services."   Anybody who has used the system in Europe probably agrees.   Most certainly say so.   Some say so and later forget what they've said!!!   You've got to wonder why.

This could be a start.


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## John H (Jul 11, 2012)

maureenandtom said:


> Now, for those who compliment the continental system, and that's pretty well all of us,  this is a start.  Scarborough, from my point of view, is not all that important.  Anywhere trying to institute the Aires system deserves to be helped because if one adopts the system (and others have done so already) then more can be persudaded to do so.



As I have said before, any Council that introduces "aires", whether or not they charge for them, is a step in the right direction because at least they have taken our needs into consideration. But it seems to me that these councils are not all reading from the same hymn sheet. Hawick, for example, has - according to a recent thread - set aside free spaces for us and even provides a team of people to welcome us with information about the local area. Others (maybe Scarborough, but we will find out) appear to set aside areas but deliberately set the charge higher than CLs so that in effect it is a ban. The first, I would like to see followed by others; I'm not sure about the second!


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## maingate (Jul 11, 2012)

Google 'Portas Plan'.

If your town is one of those looking to implement her plan (Mary Portas I mean) then get yourself involved as it is a good opportunity to get changes made which may benefit us.


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## Shockingdog (Jul 11, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> E.mail sent
> 
> I may not be the best at writing a letter, but here is my mail:
> 
> ...



Please let me know if you get a reply and the details of same.I am watching this one with some interest.
Thanks
S/Dog


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## Northerner (Jul 11, 2012)

Shockingdog said:


> Please let me know if you get a reply and the details of same.I am watching this one with some interest.
> Thanks
> S/Dog



I suspect he'll get an email asking him what he's on about because, if you read the thread completely you'll see that there is no intention whatsoever to ban motorhomes! In a nutshell, a member saw a notice, completely misinterpreted what was written and came on here accusing the council of banning motorhomes from 60 car parks when in fact the proposal was to ban just overnight parking on 15 car parks. From the original post and one or two others you'd think that the council in question was eventually going to set up concentration camps and eliminate us all!

As a result of this we've got people writing intemperate emails to the council accusing them of something that's not actually going to happen. Honestly, you couldn't make it up!


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## sean rua (Jul 11, 2012)

Parking and the law are strange things, imo.

At Dusseldorf airport, they've brought in "female only parking" in a designated part of the park. I expect you all know about it.
Apparently, folk travel from miles around just to rubberneck at those parking up. It seems they have some bigger bays with no hard impediments in the vicinity.

This unlikely tourist attraction is said to pay dividends, as it has encouraged ladies to use the airport as they're confident of finding nice easy parking.

Where this leaves Brussels with all their chat about "equality" , "sexism", "fovouritism" etc, I have no idea.

Just something else to throw into the mix, I suppose.


sean rua


" Ignorance is Treatable; Arrogance is Terminal."


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## Bigpeetee (Jul 11, 2012)

*More Detail:*

Below some facts from Scarborough Borough Council re parking restrictions plus minutes from meetings.

Actual Notice:  http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/pdf/NOI__Off_Street..pdf

Web site info:  Public Notices | Scarborough Borough Council

Reasons:         http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/pdf/statement_of_reasons_2..pdf

Draft Order:     http://www.scarborough.gov.uk/pdf/DRAFT_Oder_front_page..pdf

Equality Policy:  Harassment - advice and support : North Yorkshire County Council



Car Parking Fees and Charges 2012/2013
Meeting of Health and Wellbeing Scrutiny Committee, Wednesday, 23rd November, 2011 2.00 pm (Item 8.)

Motorhomes

Councillor Abbott voiced concern at motorhomes staying overnight in car parks in the Borough, and suggested the use of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 to help address this problem.  Mr Clark replied that he was consulting with Legal Services about this issue, and would pass on Councillor Abbott’s suggestion.  Any proposals resulting from Legal Services’ advice would be considered by the Car Parking Review Group and then the scrutiny committee.

Meeting: 20/10/2009 - Cabinet (Item 17) 


 17 Objections to Proposed Parking Orders  PDF 178 KB 

To consider a report by the Head of Technical Services (Reference 09/621 attached).

Minutes:

The Cabinet considered a report by the Head of Technical Services (Reference 09/621).  Councillor Backhouse stated that this report was to address the issue of motorhomes parking overnight and having free use of facilities.  The Head of Technical Services, John Riby stated that there were both on street and off street car parking regulations to deal with this but neither were completely helpful.  A final option would be to not proceed and the matter be referred back to the car parking working group and that the issue be taken to the Department for Transport.  This meant finding other authorities that were in a similar situation who could also lobby the Department for Transport alongside Scarborough Borough Council.  Councillor Fox stated that there was then a fourth resolution to refer this to the parking group who would take this up with the Department for Transport. Councillor Backhouse stated that the Council was not against motorhomes but were trying to manage these.

RESOLVED that:

(i)         the report be received;

(ii)        the objections received be noted; and

(iii)       Members refer the issue back to the Parking working group and ask that they liaise with the Department for Transport to determine whether any alternatives to the proposals in the report may be possible

Reasons:

To recognise the concerns of the objectors and to improve management of Off Street parking places.


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## Northerner (Jul 11, 2012)

sean rua said:


> At Dusseldorf airport, they've brought in "female only parking" in a designated part of the park. I expect you all know about it.
> Apparently, folk travel from miles around just to rubberneck at those parking up. It seems they have some bigger bays with no hard impediments in the vicinity.
> 
> This unlikely tourist attraction is said to pay dividends, as it has encouraged ladies to use the airport as they're confident of finding nice easy parking.
> ...



Oh dear, another urban myth being propagated!  There is no female-only parking at Düsseldorf Airport, but the Holiday Inn, which is several miles away, has designated 20 of its 200 places for women. They are no more free of encumbrances than any other spaces in the hotel's car park but are slightly wider to enable women, who are often likely to be accompanied by babies and children to have a little more space to open wide their doors and remove child safety seats etc.

There is no evidence whatsoever that people are travelling for miles to watch women parking and why would they for God's sake?  This is exactly what we have in the U.K where many supermarkets now have mother and child spaces for exactly the same reason.

So there's no discrimination, no sexism, no implication that women cannot park in normal-sized slots, just common sense and a willingness to assist women who may be struggling with infants. Ah, how these tales travel, gaining more and more 'facts' as they are bowled along!

As is usual most years, I shall be flying to Düsseldorf for a short trip to a trade fair at Cologne Messe but I'll be sure to tell all my friends that, rather than just hopping on to the train to Cologne when they reach Düsseldorf Airport, they should nip up the road to watch a few ladies parking at the Holiday Inn! I'm sure that they can't wait!


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## al n sal (Jul 11, 2012)

Northerner said:


> And people wonder why we're not wanted and disliked by many people. Who's bullied you into using a campsite? How do you know that they're overpriced? Which councillor owns a campsite? If such a person existed what has his weight got to do with it? If I were a councillor I wouldn't want anyone with views like yours 100 miles from my town. *They simply show that you are unreasonable, selfish and care nothing for anyone else*. You should read the post earlier in this thread where one member admits that he spends as little as possible whenever he goes anywhere!
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that councillors act on the wishes of their constituents and that maybe the residents of Scarborough are sick to death of free-loading motorhomers who think that they've the God-given right to park anywhere just because they've spent a few grand on a campervan? Just for once in your life try to see things from other people's point of view. The way to address a problem such as this is with reasonable discussion and putting forward intelligent arguments, not silly rants that have no basis in any facts.



maybe YOU should re look at all the posts and threads and also national press regarding Scarborough and some councillors..Councillor expenses (and before the torrent of replies, I know its not all, only a few but enough to be noticed and cost multi-thousands) ..........other than that...as highlighted..your entitled to your opinion as we very often see posted............


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## Northerner (Jul 11, 2012)

al n sal said:


> maybe YOU should re look at all the posts and threads and also national press regarding Scarborough and some councillors..Councillor expenses (and before the torrent of replies, I know its not all, only a few but enough to be noticed and cost multi-thousands) ..........other than that...as highlighted..your entitled to your opinion as we very often see posted............



What the hell has that got to do with motorhome parking? And you also appear to have your opinions as well, which you post regularly, but your opinions, or certainly the latest one is one of the most bigoted and vile that I've ever seen on here and to remind others, this is what you said!

'I'm still happy to not spend fuel and definitely not any time or money visiting a place or area that doesn't want my custom, unless I'm happy to be bullied into using an over priced campsite belonging to a fat greedy councilor. 
i don't know about my comments being racist, but it is probably fat councillor-ist.'

Do you consider that that insulting rant is reasonable and fair? If you do, you need to seriously rethink your attitude to others. Apart from which it bears no relation to the facts whatsoever.


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## al n sal (Jul 11, 2012)

Northerner said:


> What the hell has that got to do with motorhome parking? And you also appear to have your opinions as well, which you post regularly, but your opinions, or certainly the latest one is one of the most bigoted and vile that I've ever seen on here and to remind others, this is what you said!
> 
> 'I'm still happy to not spend fuel and definitely not any time or money visiting a place or area that doesn't want my custom, unless I'm happy to be bullied into using an over priced campsite belonging to a fat greedy councilor.
> i don't know about my comments being racist, but it is probably fat councillor-ist.'
> ...



:angel:


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## sean rua (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you, Northener,
 for putting us straight about the special parking bays for females ( an actual fact) in Dusseldorf.
Although I don't believe my German correspondent had any malicious intention to spread lies or start another "urban myth", as you called it,
 I shall get on the phone to  give him the rollicking he no doubt deserves. :idea-007:

Here is a clip directly from the company's spiel:

" 
*Welcome to Holiday Inn Düsseldorf Airport - Ratingen*
Stop over at the welcoming Holiday Inn Düsseldorf Airport-Ratingen, *close to Düsseldorf International Airport* and downtown Düsseldorf.

The homely Holiday Inn Düsseldorf Airport-Ratingen is* just a short ride in our complimentary shuttle bus* f*rom Düsseldorf International Airport*, 4km away. Our sparkling swimming pool flows from inside the hotel to a leafy summer garden, with a barbecue terrace and quirky sand beach. The offices of downtown Düsseldorf are 10km away.

It's easy to get to your appointments on the outskirts of Düsseldorf with international companies like Schneider Electric, TDK Electronic Components Europe and Mitsubishi all under 1km away. Gather at Messe Düsseldorf convention centre, only 9km from Holiday Inn Düsseldorf Airport-Ratingen."


 Obviously, this four star place wouldn't be good enough for you and your illustrious and jovial mates, but, hey, it's glad to hear about them having fun, being as you're such a serious and sensitive chap yourself. :

"" I shall be flying to Düsseldorf for a short trip to a trade fair at Cologne Messe but I'll be sure to tell all my friends that, rather than just hopping on to the train to Cologne when they reach Düsseldorf Airport, they should nip up the road to watch a few ladies parking at the Holiday Inn! I'm sure that they can't wait! "": Northener.

--

No, I bet they can't.:ninja:
However, I would have thought the pink-walled special female parking facility in Tianjin, China, would have been more their thing.
 You probably saw that and the original piece about "men only" parking in Bavaria in the Daily Mail - not a paper I read myself, btw, though I did view their website with all the lovely pictures.

There again, if their reporting of this, what I thought was,   light-hearted piece, about all sorts of "isms" in the world of parking,
is as inaccurate as their usual guff about DALE FARM ( Oak Lane)
then, I suppose they too could be guilty of spreading "urban myths".:have fun:

Btw, I loved your bit on the other thread, where you pin the blame on the Travelling people. I'd forgotten that quote that you* liked* so much. You know, the one about "vermin".

It was almost as hilarious as your gag about having just returned from selling pegs and flowers in Eastern Europe.
 I bet that got your Dusseldorf mates guffawing and chortling away too! :rockroll:

It's nice to be nice. :goodluck:


sean rua

" Ignorance is Treatable; Arrogance is Terminal." 
( taken from the *vermin trappers* website of America and Australia).


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 13, 2012)

*Not an appology!*



groyne said:


> Thankyou, I'll take that as an apology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



An appology this aint my friend. I am stunned that you seem to be more concerned that I misread the notice!! You and me see things very differently my friend. SBC are 100% wrong and have overstepped the mark. I will do everything I can to try to stop this. You carry on highlighting other motorhome users mistakes if it makes you feel better!!


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 13, 2012)

*Why SHOULD anyone be forced to Pay anyone to park*



Northerner said:


> And people wonder why we're not wanted and disliked by many people. Who's bullied you into using a campsite? How do you know that they're overpriced? Which councillor owns a campsite? If such a person existed what has his weight got to do with it? If I were a councillor I wouldn't want anyone with views like yours 100 miles from my town. They simply show that you are unreasonable, selfish and care nothing for anyone else. You should read the post earlier in this thread where one member admits that he spends as little as possible whenever he goes anywhere!
> 
> Has it ever occurred to you that councillors act on the wishes of their constituents and that maybe the residents of Scarborough are sick to death of free-loading motorhomers who think that they've the God-given right to park anywhere just because they've spent a few grand on a campervan? Just for once in your life try to see things from other people's point of view. The way to address a problem such as this is with reasonable discussion and putting forward intelligent arguments, not silly rants that have no basis in any facts.



I want the freedom to park ANYWHERE any other vehicle can.... why shouldnt I expect that? I dont have a problem with campsites, I do have a problem when I am banned from parking in areas I KNOW I should be allowed to park.


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## Northerner (Jul 13, 2012)

berniesbargreece said:


> I want the freedom to park ANYWHERE any other vehicle can.... why shouldnt I expect that? I dont have a problem with campsites, I do have a problem when I am banned from parking in areas I KNOW I should be allowed to park.



Well of course you do, because you're obviously unable to work out why there are restrictions and height barriers in certain places. Are you seriously suggesting that motorhomes and even caravans being towed by cars should just be able to park anywhere they like without regard for anyone else? The problem is that we're our own worst enemy and, if you allow unrestricted parking of motorhomes there are a number of people who will take the mickey and within no time they'll be on Scarborough prom for a week with their chairs out! There was a news article recently on TV about an old bloke who parked opposite St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall for a fortnight every year. When interviewed his attitude was just like yours: "I know my rights, I should be allowed to park anywhere blah blah blah." I suspect that, because of people like him, there are now much tougher rules for all of us.

Perhaps you could start by trying to understand why certain place have this antipathy to motorhomes? Not just here but in many other countries as well where height barriers proliferate. Even in supposedly motorhome-friendly France the Mediterranean resorts are awash with them. Why would they restrict motorhomes, which bring in a few extra tourists? Could it be that they've learned that the disadvantages of allowing motorhomes to park totally outweighs the advantages? One disadvantage being that if parking is completely unrestricted, tinkers and travellers may well descend and we've all learned how hard it is to get them to move on.

And I'm sorry that you're not prepared to apologise for your totally mistaken rant (for rant it was) which caused people to write to the council and end up with egg on their faces complaining about a problem that actually didn't exist!


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## berniesbargreece (Jul 13, 2012)

*Let's just agree to disagree*



Northerner said:


> Well of course you do, because you're obviously unable to work out why there are restrictions and height barriers in certain places. Are you seriously suggesting that motorhomes and even caravans being towed by cars should just be able to park anywhere they like without regard for anyone else? The problem is that we're our own worst enemy and, if you allow unrestricted parking of motorhomes there are a number of people who will take the mickey and within no time they'll be on Scarborough prom for a week with their chairs out! There was a news article recently on TV about an old bloke who parked opposite St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall for a fortnight every year. When interviewed his attitude was just like yours: "I know my rights, I should be allowed to park anywhere blah blah blah." I suspect that, because of people like him, there are now much tougher rules for all of us.
> 
> Perhaps you could start by trying to understand why certain place have this antipathy to motorhomes? Not just here but in many other countries as well where height barriers proliferate. Even in supposedly motorhome-friendly France the Mediterranean resorts are awash with them. Why would they restrict motorhomes, which bring in a few extra tourists? CCould it be that they've learned that the disadvantages of allowing motorhomes to park totally outweighs the advantages? One disadvantage being that if parking is completely unrestricted, tinkers and travellers may well descend and we've all learned how hard it is to get them to move on.
> 
> And I'm sorry that you're not prepared to apologise for your totally mistaken rant (for rant it was) which caused people to write to the council and end up with egg on their faces complaining about a problem that actually didn't exist!



This proposed ban is for "overnight" parking when the town is at its quietest,, from 7pm till early in the morning, I have never been to Whitby and found the proposed car parks full... Not even close to full, if you believe this ban is in anyway fair then that's your decision. As for the Rant... As you called it, it's a proposed ban on "overnight" that I find unacceptable, when the vast majority of folk are home. The simple fact is this, If you let these people impose their rules on issues that quite frankly "ain't a problem" to anyone, they will see it as a green light to do whatever they want! Anyone who complained as a result of my "rant" has not got egg on their faces, far from it, they should be happy they have complained because I would gladly shake their hand!! This overnight ban is an appeasement to B&B owners and "oversubsidised" Farmers who are being bloody minded and downright selfish. If this issue were about daytime parking I would see your point, but it ain't, overnight bans are not on!


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 13, 2012)

What the heck have farmers got to do with anything? I have camped on a lot of farmer's land.  Mind you, I have always asked permission first which is only right IMHO


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## Bigpeetee (Jul 13, 2012)

Reply to my E.Mail:

Dear Sir/madam
 I am in receipt of your objection to the proposed changes to Off Street Parking Regulations to prohibit motor caravan parking on 14 car parks in the Borough of Scarborough. (information available on link below)
Public Notices | Scarborough Borough Council
 Your objection will be considered together with any other objections received at the meeting of the Cabinet on Tuesday 18 September 2012.
 I will advise you of the outcome following that meeting.
 Yours sincerely
 Jane Wilson
 Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Home | Scarborough Borough Council


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## Funky Farmer (Jul 13, 2012)

runnach said:


> As an ex guest house owner, I really can't see how motorhome owners would have an effect on passing trade, unless of course, MH was parked directly outside a property obscuring their business sign?
> 
> I know if I contacted our council/local tourist board, complaining about MH's, both bodies would not be interested!
> 
> Regards.


 At the last count, the only people not to be accused of  being unreasonable by the OP,  are mother and baby clubs .:rolleyes2:
.


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## Bigpeetee (Jul 13, 2012)

BTW,

on the email from Scarborough, they say they are:

Europe's Most Enterprising Place - Winner 2009
International Association of Public Participation (IAP2) - Project of the Year Award 2009
Academy of Urbanism - 'The Great Town' - Winner 2010


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## jamesmarshall (Jul 13, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> BTW,
> 
> on the email from Scarborough, they say they are:
> 
> ...



They are doing something right then.


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## maingate (Jul 13, 2012)

Bigpeetee said:


> BTW,
> 
> on the email from Scarborough, they say they are:
> 
> ...



As me Granny used to say:

Self praise is no recommendation. :blah:


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