# Armitages A Frame - Smart Car Fire - Locksmiths Bad Luck Strikes again.



## locksmith

After the Brownhills are Downhills saga I hoped for a quiet life, Mandy is now in remission and we are trying to make the most of our motorhome that Brownhills supplied to us with the very best after service possible.
Last Thursday 28th of April my son and I went to Armitages West Yorkshire to have a tow bar and A frame fitted to my just purchased Smart Car, we left Bury St Edmunds for the 170 mile drive at around 5.30 am to get to Armitages by 9am. The Manager (Wayne) met us and went around the two vehicles to list anything on the vehicle’s (marks dents etc.) before they start work on fitting the A frame to the Smart Car and the tow bar and electrics to the Motorhome, he commented how they were both in very good order.
Armitages lend you a courtesy car so you can go off for the day while they do the work.
My son and I drove to York and spent the best part of the day there and returned to Armitages a 3pm as they said all would be ready by 3.30pm, we waited till 4.30 …. Still not ready …. Then the secretary of Armiages came and said the Smart Car is ready we will do you a demo of how everything works while the engineers finish putting the tow bar on the Motorhome.
We ran through the demo all seemed OK I then went and paid for the two things with my debit card and waited for the motorhome the time was 4.52pm, at 5.10pm the motorhome was driven out to the smart car and our second demo started. The engineers and other were running about like headless chickens trying to lock up the depot, the next day being the Royal wedding and a holiday they wanted to get away, anyways the chap doing the demo connected me up to the motorhome and said now put the car in neutral, hand break off this done he checked it all and showed me how to put a bungee from the seat to the break pedal after which he hurried me into the motorhome to test drive towing the Smart car. I pulled away and was amazed how easy it was and I braked as instructed but noticed it was not so easy to pull away after that but continued on my test laps of the car park until he appeared and waved me down to check the linkage and do any adjustments, I told him after the first time I braked it seemed harder to then pull away, he said it was because I was not used to towing the car behind and I needed to give it more welly.
At this point the linkage brake cable was very loose so he adjusted it and went inside the car to check the bungee etc. he then asked me if I had any spanners and that I should check the adjustment two or three times on my way home, he then shook my hand and wished me luck and I climbed back in the motor home and pulled away.
My son and I got onto the A1 quite quickly and headed south, I was disappointed as I was struggling to get above 50mph, we had got about ten miles along the road and I saw this juggernaut behind me flashing his lights, he then came along side me waving frantically, I looked in my reversing camera everything looked fine with the Smart but I pulled over at the next layby, I got out walked to the back of the motorhome and could smell hot breaks but when I got to the Smart Car there were flames coming from the rear wheel hubs and the hubs were glowing red hot, a lorry driver pulled up behind and jumped out with water to try and extinguish the car but the rear plastic body was well alight, it was to far gone to save it, I raced and unhitched the car and drove the motorhome away further along the layby,
As I got out I saw my son taking a picture with his phone, a split second later the car exploded and we couldn’t see a thing getting back in the motorhome out of the thick black smoke. My son called 999 and I called Armitages and got hold of Wayne telling him what had happened giving him a running commentary whilst moving the motorhome again as there were further explosions. The Police arrived with the fire brigade, I told Wayne this disaster has got to be down to him and could he call me back as the Police want to talk to me, he said yes of course and kept saying he was so sorry.
I explained to the policeman what work I had had done and he looked at the receipt and his watch 5. 35 and said that it was only 40 minutes ago that you paid for it!
I gave the policeman a statement and he suggested I call Armitages to get them over here with there insurance to clear this mess up.
Wayne arrived about an hour later having to queue in the 10 mile tail backs each way and all he could say was how sorry he was and started taking pictures at which stage he then said to me in front of my son and the Highway’s agency that there is a kink in the brake line they fitted. Wayne carried on saying how sorry he was and he would sort it all out and get us a courtesy car he then asked the Highways Agency if my son and I could go home as we had 160miles to go, we got home and had to explain why we looked like coal miners and our cloths had burns from the sparks.
I have tried to get hold of Wayne since Wednesday but he is always with a client but have since learned he is not excepting liability, I have talked with other A frame fitters and one in particular has said that Armitages have had problems like this before but because it has happened a week or a month later they have said it has been down to the customer not adjusting the set up correctly and have not paid out, in my case it was all done by them…. The case continues.


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## Marcs

That was really unfortunate, but I guess could have been a lot worse if it'd have caught your motorhome too.

Did you mean it happened last May (as above) or last April? (few days ago) as if its taken a year and still unsorted then thats shocking.

Hope you get the matter resolved soon.


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## locksmith

Marcs said:


> That was really unfortunate, but I guess could have been a lot worse if it'd have caught your motorhome too.
> 
> Did you mean it happened last May (as above) or last April? (few days ago) as if its taken a year and still unsorted then thats shocking.
> 
> Hope you get the matter resolved soon.



sorry, it was last Thursday the 28th of may


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## Lorry Ball

If you cant get the date right, how do you expect to even win the case
today is the 06 of MAY 2011 :drive:
The last Thursday in April was the 28th


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## locksmith

Lorry Ball said:


> If you cant get the date right, how do you expect to even win the case
> today is the 06 of MAY 2011 :drive:
> The last Thursday in April was the 28th


 
Thank you for that and your right .. put May by mistake but it was last Thursday the 28th April .. a little upset and not thinking clearly.


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## Canalsman

Well after all the recent threads about the use of A-frames - their legality and safety - does anyone else REALLY want to use one of these?

If ever proof was needed that they're a bad idea, here it is 

The other unfortunate part of the saga is that Locksmith used a debit card to pay.

All consumer groups will tell you that you must use a CREDIT card to pay for high value goods and services - that way if a supplier defaults, as appears to be the case here, the credit card company is liable.

Take heed!


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## locksmith

Canalsman said:


> Well after all the recent threads about the use of A-frames - their legality and safety - does anyone else REALLY want to use one of these?
> 
> If ever proof was needed that they're a bad idea, here it is
> 
> The other unfortunate part of the saga is that Locksmith used a debit card to pay.
> 
> All consumer groups will tell you that you must use a CREDIT card to pay for high value goods and services - that way if a supplier defaults, as appears to be the case here, the credit card company is liable.
> 
> Take heed!



It has scared me so much, more of what could and nearly happened. you are right about the credit card also.


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## Deleted member 3270

We are so sorry to here this mate
owning and using a motorhome should be stress free
lets hope that you have a similar outcome with this as you did with brownhills 
best of luck 
WENDY& KEITH


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## locksmith

wilthebeast said:


> We are so sorry to here this mate
> owning and using a motorhome should be stress free
> lets hope that you have a similar outcome with this as you did with brownhills
> best of luck
> WENDY& KEITH


Thanks Wendy and Keith, we have had a few nice weeks in the motorhome and love it. I'm really not sure about towing a car behind now after this.


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## Deleted member 3270

locksmith said:


> Thanks Wendy and Keith, we have had a few nice weeks in the motorhome and love it. I'm really not sure about towing a car behind now after this.


 
WHY not try  a couple of fold up electric bikes,( as we have ) ok they may only do a round trip of about 15 miles but they do us, and they would fit in your garage in the motorhome no problem , get the right bikes and you dont have to pedal just swist and go


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## vwalan

i have been using a frames for over 30yrs .both commercially and private .i have a very early inter trade frame bought second hand in 1980. also have an harvey frost towboy .dollie. have pullede cars and vans all over uk and eu. never had a problem . there is no mistaking a badly fitted frame or careless use can cause problems . continual mirror use is essential. 
as to now i prefer a mini artic camper . have 7 seater for use as car and a lovelly 20ft trailer as the living space .yet still under 10mtrs. 
bit of bad luck for locksmiths lets hope they get a good result. 
but do you have the right vehicle if you need to tow a car. i,ve used my artic since 2001 and cant think of a better way to travel. can be driven on an old car licence.


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## locksmith

vwalan said:


> i have been using a frames for over 30yrs .both commercially and private .i have a very early inter trade frame bought second hand in 1980. also have an harvey frost towboy .dollie. have pullede cars and vans all over uk and eu. never had a problem . there is no mistaking a badly fitted frame or careless use can cause problems . continual mirror use is essential.
> as to now i prefer a mini artic camper . have 7 seater for use as car and a lovelly 20ft trailer as the living space .yet still under 10mtrs.
> bit of bad luck for locksmiths lets hope they get a good result.
> but do you have the right vehicle if you need to tow a car. i,ve used my artic since 2001 and cant think of a better way to travel. can be driven on an old car licence.


Those of you who know me, know my wife has terminal cancer (Brain Tumour) and although we enjoy traveling and moving on daily when we go to some sites we wish to stay the week and my wife just need's to rest making it awkward to get provisions, this is why I thought a Smart towed behind would be good but I must admit I think I may stick to just the motorhome.


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## Marcs

Sorry to read that mate, As an alternative you could get a small purpose built trailer and another smart?


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## locksmith

Just been told that Armitages remove a section of the car and replace it with box section steel that is threaded and tapped out to take the A frame thus destroying the the safety cage that is the biggest safety feature of the smart car. I have been told this is illegal and if the car were inspected and this came to light it would not be allowed on the road.


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## Marcs

Well that'll be a useful "bargaining tool" if they dont play ball.


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## locksmith

Marcs said:


> Well that'll be a useful "bargaining tool" if they dont play ball.


I will have to check this out and make sure this person is correct...


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## locksmith

I have heard very little on the safety side of towing with an A frame till I posted this on here but more as to whether or not it is legal. After talking to Armitages prior to having the A frame fitted I decided to go with them because they had all the answers. I have also just read a sheet of fitting the A frame, handed to me when I was leaving Armitages that say's they are not responsible for damage caused from an A frame being fitted incorrectly by a customer, this I except. 
It now seems they do not except responsibility for their own fitting either, this is unacceptable.


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## Pollik

The issue of non-acceptance, I think, is a direct consequence of having insurance cover.  Insurers are not keen on their customers admitting liability when they have to foot the bill.  Indeed, accepting liability can invalidate insurance cover.

I am so sorry to hear about what locksmith is having to suffer, the more so when it is no fault of his own.



Polly


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## Tony Lee

Well, now that canalsman has kicked you when you are down, perhaps time for some positives.

With proper attention to detail, a-framing a small vehicle behind the motorhome is THE most convenient way to do it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans do it, thousands of Australians do it and of course a few Europeans do it as well. You have problems with legality which is another consideration that really can't be ignored.
 I've A-framed a Suzuki Grand Vitara for probably 25000km around Australia on roads so bad that most people would consider them undriveable with absolutely no problems.

One thing I always do is start off and when we are just moving, depress the clutch and see what happens. If the rig coasts as normal, then the toad brakes aren't on and it is not in gear. (once, Betty didn't get the transfer case fully in Neutral and since instructions are to have the main gearbox in 2nd, this meant that the car was in gear and this was immediately obvious from the slowdown even though the whole rig weighs 17 tonnes.) Next, make as sharp a turn as possible and check in the mirrors that the front wheels are turning. 

On a practical level in your case. Is the smart car fully insured? If so, then obviously most of the problems become ones for your insurance company to sort out and you should save yourself the worry and let them do it. Obviously there will still be comeback on that company for compensation for your out of pocket expenses and insurance shortfalls and incidentals, but that isn't going to be as bad as trying to sort it all out yourself.

Also, depending on your thoughts and whether the company does the right thing in a very short time, would it help if we had contact details of the company and many of us wrote emails to them letting them know we had learned of the case on the internet and were very concerned about the way the case seemed to be progressing etc etc etc. I would have thought that having the details of the case aired on several UK forums with tens of thousands of motorhome owners might be a good incentive for them to do the right thing and do it immediately.


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## locksmith

Tony Lee said:


> Well, now that canalsman has kicked you when you are down, perhaps time for some positives.
> 
> With proper attention to detail, a-framing a small vehicle behind the motorhome is THE most convenient way to do it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans do it, thousands of Australians do it and of course a few Europeans do it as well. You have problems with legality which is another consideration that really can't be ignored.
> I've A-framed a Suzuki Grand Vitara for probably 25000km around Australia on roads so bad that most people would consider them undriveable with absolutely no problems.
> 
> One thing I always do is start off and when we are just moving, depress the clutch and see what happens. If the rig coasts as normal, then the toad brakes aren't on and it is not in gear. (once, Betty didn't get the transfer case fully in Neutral and since instructions are to have the main gearbox in 2nd, this meant that the car was in gear and this was immediately obvious from the slowdown even though the whole rig weighs 17 tonnes.) Next, make as sharp a turn as possible and check in the mirrors that the front wheels are turning.
> 
> On a practical level in your case. Is the smart car fully insured? If so, then obviously most of the problems become ones for your insurance company to sort out and you should save yourself the worry and let them do it. Obviously there will still be comeback on that company for compensation for your out of pocket expenses and insurance shortfalls and incidentals, but that isn't going to be as bad as trying to sort it all out yourself.
> 
> Also, depending on your thoughts and whether the company does the right thing in a very short time, would it help if we had contact details of the company and many of us wrote emails to them letting them know we had learned of the case on the internet and were very concerned about the way the case seemed to be progressing etc etc etc. I would have thought that having the details of the case aired on several UK forums with tens of thousands of motorhome owners might be a good incentive for them to do the right thing and do it immediately.



I would be grateful to anything that would speed this process along.   Thank you.

Armitages Trailers, contact page


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## Tbear

Tony Lee said:


> Well, now that canalsman has kicked you when you are down, perhaps time for some positives.
> 
> With proper attention to detail, a-framing a small vehicle behind the motorhome is THE most convenient way to do it. Hundreds of thousands of Americans do it, thousands of Australians do it and of course a few Europeans do it as well. You have problems with legality which is another consideration that really can't be ignored.
> I've A-framed a Suzuki Grand Vitara for probably 25000km around Australia on roads so bad that most people would consider them undriveable with absolutely no problems.
> 
> One thing I always do is start off and when we are just moving, depress the clutch and see what happens. If the rig coasts as normal, then the toad brakes aren't on and it is not in gear. (once, Betty didn't get the transfer case fully in Neutral and since instructions are to have the main gearbox in 2nd, this meant that the car was in gear and this was immediately obvious from the slowdown even though the whole rig weighs 17 tonnes.) Next, make as sharp a turn as possible and check in the mirrors that the front wheels are turning.
> 
> On a practical level in your case. Is the smart car fully insured? If so, then obviously most of the problems become ones for your insurance company to sort out and you should save yourself the worry and let them do it. Obviously there will still be comeback on that company for compensation for your out of pocket expenses and insurance shortfalls and incidentals, but that isn't going to be as bad as trying to sort it all out yourself.
> 
> Also, depending on your thoughts and whether the company does the right thing in a very short time, would it help if we had contact details of the company and many of us wrote emails to them letting them know we had learned of the case on the internet and were very concerned about the way the case seemed to be progressing etc etc etc. I would have thought that having the details of the case aired on several UK forums with tens of thousands of motorhome owners might be a good incentive for them to do the right thing and do it immediately.


 
For what its worth. Email sent.

Richard


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## locksmith

Thanks Richard....


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## locksmith

*Smart Car was removed from Highway's Agency's compound*

The Smart car has been removed from the highways Agency compound after I was called by them to say that Armitages wanted access to it. The Highways Agency allowed them to Photograph it but not to touch it.
Makes me wonder why Wayne of Armitages was so keen to get my son and I to leave the fire scene??
He seemed genuinely concerned for my lost car and that we were OK, said he would compensate us and also said that his father would sort us a courtesy car last Tuesday .. ( Not a Word )
Seems his concern was and is for himself.


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## Tony Lee

That is two at least but two emails a campaign doth not make.

How about another thousand or two. Nice and polite and factual and suggesting they might sort things out sooner than later.

Quite frankly, if this had happened to me when I was in business, I would be knocking on the customers door the next day with a bottle of booze and a big bunch of flowers and box of chocolates for the wife AND the keys to a brand new car - next model up - all fitted with an A-frame - and the local newspaper to record the event.

The good Samaritan act might cost a few dollars but the good publicity would make it very worthwhile.


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## Tony Lee

Speaking of newspapers, did this fire get into the papers - with a bit of background info as well. Perhaps time for a followup?


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## kenspain

6 more Emails on there way from Spain and some from my Spanish  and French friends here. All the best with this,


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## locksmith

Thank you so much, yet again.
The Brownhills are Downhills is not yet a year ago and we find ourselves having problems again.

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/general-chat/10956-brownhills-downhills.html


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## robjk

Hi locksmith I have sent email.

All the best to to you and and your wife

Rob and Sue


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## kenjones

What a nightmare. 
I own a Smart car and arranged for Armitages to fit an "A" frame to it.
They gave me a quote which wasn't cheap but I accepted it. For some reason I felt very uneasy about having my shiny new car altered even though Armitages assured me it didn't effect the warranty.
Smart do not recommend towing thier vehicles even though many owners do it.
I chickened out and cancelled the booking.
I must stress that Armitages Towbars did absolutly nothing wrong in this case, it was my gut feeling about towing it. Reading about your problem has left me cold.
I hope everything works out well for you.
Ken


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## locksmith

robkinnear said:


> Hi locksmith I have sent email.
> 
> All the best to to you and and your wife
> 
> Rob and Sue



Thanks Rob for your help, best wishes to you and Sue...


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## Tony Lee

Nothing to do with this case that seems to have involved a jammed cable holding brakes on - or since it was the back wheels that were red hot, the handbrake left on, but it is obvious that there are significant problems in towing smart cars if the controls are not set exactly right. Googling "flat towing smart car" finds mostly irrelevant US forum posts but there are a couple of UK ones that make worthwhile reading


If you want to send an email to an actual person, nigel@armitagetrailers.com works - so maybe wayne@ works as well.


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## vwalan

there are thousands of smart cars being towed on afr mes. its possibly the most towed car ever been made. saw loads this winter in spain being towed .saw some today on bodmin moor heading down into cornwall. better to stop the scare mongering . lets just stick with the truth. looks like a fault with the brake cable tube . i normally use bowden cable works a treat .as for changing the front of the car . seems abit unlikely . be hard to be illegal even if they did. contact your insurer and have you legal assistance to help you. everybody can make mistakes .nobody is perfect all the time. with yours and the police statements given the time scale of things it should be sorted quick ,hope its al over soon.


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## locksmith

Tony Lee said:


> Nothing to do with this case that seems to have involved a jammed cable holding brakes on - or since it was the back wheels that were red hot, the handbrake left on, but it is obvious that there are significant problems in towing smart cars if the controls are not set exactly right. Googling "flat towing smart car" finds mostly irrelevant US forum posts but there are a couple of UK ones that make worthwhile reading
> 
> 
> If you want to send an email to an actual person, nigel@armitagetrailers.com works - so maybe wayne@ works as well.


 One of my questions was why did the front breaks not get as hot. answer from another A Frame manufacturer is because the front is discs and drums on the back are enclosed and will get hotter because the air does not cool them the same ??
He also told me of another case of the tyre's wearing away on the back more than the front when brakes were binding because the drag depending on the hight of the tow bar takes the weight of the front of the car almost lifting the front wheels off the ground.. seemed odd but who am I to say different.
This Chap has another Smart Car that has an Armitages A Frame and he is changing it and replacing the the damaged braking system and wheels.


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## Tony Lee

I guess the elastic strap attached to the brake pedal is designed to make sure there isn't even the slightest bit of drag when the rig isn't braking, but of course not much use if there is a major problem with the actuating cable jamming hard.

Might apply it to my system because there has been a couple of times where the toad battery was flat because the brake lights were on all the time - presumably because a slight amount of drag holding the pedal forward a touch.


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## kenjones

I have just had another look at your photos. Can't be sure but it does look like the handbrake is in the OFF position as it should be.
Are you a member of The Smart Club?
It is free,I'm sure members would be interested and may be helpful.


thesmartclub : the world's largest club for smart car owners and enthusiasts


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## Canalsman

My comments about A-frame towing and the safety aspects have to be taken in context. And the comments weren't intended to upset Locksmith with whom I have every sympathy ...

A car with servo assisted braking (which only functions when the engine's running), and front wheels that are steered rather than fixed, cannot possibly be as safe to tow as a four wheel trailer with properly engineered overrun braking.

The trailer is purpose designed rather than a cobbled together solution that presumably is intended to save money rather than safe and secure towing.


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## vwalan

hi, the sevo does not make you have better brakes .it just makes the application easier. there as been several test done on brake rolling roads testers that easily show that if you disconect the servo you can still get the same braking efficancy. unfortunately remarks said without knowledge can give the wrong impression. i,m sure if you doubt my words you could try this out with the help of a friendly mot test station. i do remember geo on motorhome fun did this as a test a couple of years ago. i think he was suprised a little. remember you do have the full weight of the car working the brakes not a human foot .(and that could be a very delicate young ladies foot)even so please best not make remarks that sound like facts if you dont know what you are talking about. specially as it can be deemed the truth.also the front wheels on an aframe arent fixed . they turn by weight transfer just like having somebody steering. the brakes are in fact worked just like a trailers brakes . and in fact if an electric or air brake is fitted can be more efficent than ever. as this one was cable operated it works like most trailers . the differance being the auto matic reverse on the trailer brakes .


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## Tony Lee

Standard procedure is to operate the brake pedal several times after switching off the engine to make sure the vacuum reservoir is exhausted. If this isn't done, 
the first time or two that the MH brakes, the toad wheels lock up momentarily. 

Unless the toad is a significant proportion of the weight of the tug, or the tug has crappy brakes, all that is needed is enough toad braking to keep it from jackknifing.


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## locksmith

kenjones said:


> I have just had another look at your photos. Can't be sure but it does look like the handbrake is in the OFF position as it should be.
> Are you a member of The Smart Club?
> It is free,I'm sure members would be interested and may be helpful.
> 
> 
> thesmartclub : the world's largest club for smart car owners and enthusiasts


I'm 100% sure the handbrake was off as three of us checked it as we went through the list of procedures printed on the A Frame, I always put it in neutral while the car was running, then rev it to see if it tries to pull away, this was done and after we did the test laps of the car park and he adjusted the cable and checked the bungee, I locked it and left, 15 - 20 mins later it was on fire.


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## Tony Lee

> and he adjusted the cable and checked the bungee



Yep, that is the critical part. So why the hell aren't they on your doorstep grovelling for forgiveness - or at least in constant touch with you to make sure you are OK

Keep those emails going people - to  info@armitagetrailers.com or nigel@


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## locksmith

Your right! this is the point they did the adjustments and checked everything before I left..


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## walter senior

*a frame*

you





vwalan said:


> there are thousands of smart cars being towed on afr mes. its possibly the most towed car ever been made. saw loads this winter in spain being towed .saw some today on bodmin moor heading down into cornwall. better to stop the scare mongering . lets just stick with the truth. looks like a fault with the brake cable tube . i normally use bowden cable works a treat .as for changing the front of the car . seems abit unlikely . be hard to be illegal even if they did. contact your insurer and have you legal assistance to help you. everybody can make mistakes .nobody is perfect all the time. with yours and the police statements given the time scale of things it should be sorted quick ,hope its al over soon.


    Hi. vwalan I agre with your coments on the a frame i use one with no bother as you say it needs to be correctly connectedto the motorhome and the carby the user and these anty a frame people need to think before making coments.


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## Deleted member 13859

*a frame*

hi locksmith
having read your post on this matter can i just say the way you have been treated in my oppinion is disgusting, if they did the work and they checked everything then surely they are responsible.

get onto your insurance and get copies of statements made to the police, highway agency ect.
might be worth passing this onto honest john in the telegraph and the caravan club, the more publicity you get the better.
i wish you well with your efforts to get justice.

tranivanman


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## locksmith

I agree, they did the demo, set up and the checks I watched and checked the neutral was selected and the hand break was off I put the bungee on as he showed me and then he did all the final double checks as I'd not done it before, I was told not to worry, when I do it on my own I will be fine if I follow the list of procedures printed on the A Frame, that was the last time I went in my car.... I then did three towing circuits of the large car park breaking hard about 6 - 7 times but after the first circuit and braking it seemed hard to pull away! the engineer was no where in sight so I carried on around the car park braking and pulling away doing another 2 circuits he then appeared and waved me over and directed me to a stop in front of the main building  much to the annoyance of the other workers as I was blocking the big doors and they was trying to put trailers away ready for the Royal Holiday break. I got out and told him it seemed to drag when pulling away but he said I was not used to towing the car on the back and I needed to give it more welly, he then tightened the  A Frame cable went in the car and checked and pulled the bungee.. he asked if I had any spanners and said I should check the cable tension 2-3 times on my way home, he then shook my hand and said good luck and goodbye...... It seemed a very short time later we then stood on the side of the A1 helplessly watching my Smart Car burn having saved the Motorhome.


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## joncris

Canalsman said:


> Well after all the recent threads about the use of A-frames - their legality and safety - does anyone else REALLY want to use one of these?
> 
> If ever proof was needed that they're a bad idea, here it is
> 
> The other unfortunate part of the saga is that Locksmith used a debit card to pay.
> 
> All consumer groups will tell you that you must use a CREDIT card to pay for high value goods and services - that way if a supplier defaults, as appears to be the case here, the credit card company is liable.
> 
> Take heed!



If its a Visa debit its the same as a credit card


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## joncris

locksmith said:


> I have heard very little on the safety side of towing with an A frame till I posted this on here but more as to whether or not it is legal. After talking to Armitages prior to having the A frame fitted I decided to go with them because they had all the answers. I have also just read a sheet of fitting the A frame, handed to me when I was leaving Armitages that say's they are not responsible for damage caused from an A frame being fitted incorrectly by a customer, this I except.
> It now seems they do not except responsibility for their own fitting either, this is unacceptable.



Negligence is negligence & they cannot abrogate their liability for negligence. If they have fitted the A frame wrongly then they ARE liable no matter what they claim.

PS most disclaimer signs such as those seen in supermarket car parks, garages etc are unlawful and meaningless


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## joncris

Also check as it was proposed that ALL cards including debit be subject to section 75 of the CCA 1974 - 2006


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## fugglestick

*A frames*

Really bad luck that, but I NEVER trust A frames.

We always trailered our smart car, would never use a frame, a trailer is cheaper, easier,safer, and doesn't subject the car to the additional mileage.

Hope it all sorts out well for you.


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## locksmith

joncris said:


> If its a Visa debit its the same as a credit card



This could be very helpful ... Thanks you'


----------



## Beemer

joncris said:


> If its a Visa debit its the same as a credit card


 
This could well be the case as when I hire a car in Germany, the conditions state that I must produce a credit card (something I don't have) but I have used my Visa Debit card each time (the last three years) and it has never been questioned.
The above quote explains why.


----------



## locksmith

I shall certainly be on to Barclay's tomorrow ..........


----------



## Canalsman

joncris said:


> If its a Visa debit its the same as a credit card


 
I don't believe this is true - the act in question is the Consumer Credit Act and imposes a liability on companies that provide credit facilities such as credit cards.

A debit card is a very different device - any transaction made with a debit card authorises the amount to be debited directly to a bank account. It is the electronic equivalent of writing a cheque (hence the proposed demise of the cheque as a means of payment).


----------



## Canalsman

Beemer said:


> This could well be the case as when I hire a car in Germany, the conditions state that I must produce a credit card (something I don't have) but I have used my Visa Debit card each time (the last three years) and it has never been questioned.
> The above quote explains why.


 
This is not correct - for the purpose of providing surety for a car hire company, either a credit or debit card will do. 

It provides a means for the hire company to be paid if the hirer fails to return the vehicle at the agreed time.


----------



## Tony Lee

> This is not correct - for the purpose of providing surety for a car hire company, either a credit or debit card will do.
> 
> It provides a means for the hire company to be paid if the hirer fails to return the vehicle at the agreed time.



My debit card can't be used like that because it needs a PIN to be entered and can't be pre-authorised.

 Credit card can be swiped and signed (on paper or electronically) so can be used


----------



## locksmith

Not sure what is right here but Ill be able to ask some question's today and let everyone know the outcome.

Monday morning let the fight begin!


----------



## Deleted member 13859

*a frame*

hi and good luck with your fight for justice.

i'm sure you have the support of many people on this site.

best wishes to you both.

tranivanman


----------



## Tony Lee

> i'm sure you have the support of many people on this site.



Lets hope that translates into lots of concerned emails as well. Overflowing in-box would be a good sign of our support

info@armitagetrailers.com

The General Manager
Armitage Trailers
Unit 11
Ferrybridge Business Park
Fishergate
Ferrybridge
West Yorkshire
WF11 8NA

Dear Sir,

etc etc etc

yours sincerely

My Real Name


----------



## locksmith

tranivanman said:


> hi and good luck with your fight for justice.
> 
> i'm sure you have the support of many people on this site.
> 
> best wishes to you both.
> 
> tranivanman


 Thank you, have been waiting for Barclays and Insurance company etc. As I'm at home ( My terminally ill Wifes Carer) I have to much time to sit staring at the phone but I have been waiting since 9.30 for two call backs but nothing ............ dum de dum de dum


----------



## joncris

Canalsman said:


> I don't believe this is true - the act in question is the Consumer Credit Act and imposes a liability on companies that provide credit facilities such as credit cards.
> 
> A debit card is a very different device - any transaction made with a debit card authorises the amount to be debited directly to a bank account. It is the electronic equivalent of writing a cheque (hence the proposed demise of the cheque as a means of payment).


 

I'm sorry your wrong. In the case of the VISA debit cards it is correct Read their T's & C's


----------



## joncris

Tony Lee said:


> My debit card can't be used like that because it needs a PIN to be entered and can't be pre-authorised.
> 
> Credit card can be swiped and signed (on paper or electronically) so can be used



Not correct we often pay via Visa debit card over the phone as well as on-line. In the case of a telephone purchase the trader simply presses a button confirming we are not present


----------



## joncris

*Help*

locksmith if you want pro bono help please get in touch via PM


----------



## joncris

Canalsman said:


> I don't believe this is true - the act in question is the Consumer Credit Act and imposes a liability on companies that provide credit facilities such as credit cards.
> 
> A debit card is a very different device - any transaction made with a debit card authorises the amount to be debited directly to a bank account. It is the electronic equivalent of writing a cheque (hence the proposed demise of the cheque as a means of payment).



Just to confirm that ALL money tokens (credit and some debit cards ) are subject to sec 75 CCA


----------



## John H

joncris said:


> Just to confirm that ALL money tokens (credit and some debit cards ) are subject to sec 75 CCA


 
According to the OFT (149/07) Section 75 does not apply to Debit or Charge Cards.


----------



## locksmith

Armitages have posted a thread on Re: Smart Car Fire Forums

I lost my temper a bit with my reply. I have got to take Mandy for her Scan today. we were going away tomorrow after the hospital trip, this was why we had the A frame fitted when we did.

Never mind


----------



## joncris

John H said:


> According to the OFT (149/07) Section 75 does not apply to Debit or Charge Cards.



It does if you don't believe me contact Visa OR read their T's & C's

OR read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/7347146.stm AND don't be put off by the call centre staff


----------



## locksmith

*The Armitage’s Smart Car Fire. Our reply.*

The Armitage’s Smart Car Fire. Our reply. 

Firstly, we at Armitage’s Trailers and Towbars are mortified that this has happened and that our customer should have undergone such a frightening experience. In respect of admitting liability, we must follow the instructions of our insurers and abide by the results of official investigations. 

Secondly the suggestion by a business rival that Armitage’s have been beset by a-frame cars catching fire is nothing short of a lie and is a bare-faced attempt to make matters worse for us and steal our customers. On the very few occasions where there have been minor problems we have made amends immediately, with no quibbles and no splitting hairs to wriggle out of our responsibilities. 

Since we returned to the a-frame market in 2008 as the attitude of the authorities to a-frame towing changed for the better, we have manufactured and fitted well over 500 a-frames. Included in this number is an average of at least one a week to Smart cars and we have NEVER before had a customer’s car burst into flames. 

While in no way attempting to make light of Locksmith’s disaster, it is very much a one-off incident. We will not stand in the way of a fair outcome in any way whatsoever. We are anxious to have this matter resolved and are in constant touch with our insurers to ensure that proper progress is made. 

Wayne, the manager, has made no attempt to avoid Locksmith. We have been particularly busy in these past few weeks which have been shortened by bank holidays. Much time has been taken up trying to sort out this situation as speedily as possible. 

Eric Armitage


----------



## locksmith

locksmith said:


> The Armitage’s Smart Car Fire. Our reply.
> 
> Firstly, we at Armitage’s Trailers and Towbars are mortified that this has happened and that our customer should have undergone such a frightening experience. In respect of admitting liability, we must follow the instructions of our insurers and abide by the results of official investigations.
> 
> Secondly the suggestion by a business rival that Armitage’s have been beset by a-frame cars catching fire is nothing short of a lie and is a bare-faced attempt to make matters worse for us and steal our customers. On the very few occasions where there have been minor problems we have made amends immediately, with no quibbles and no splitting hairs to wriggle out of our responsibilities.
> 
> Since we returned to the a-frame market in 2008 as the attitude of the authorities to a-frame towing changed for the better, we have manufactured and fitted well over 500 a-frames. Included in this number is an average of at least one a week to Smart cars and we have NEVER before had a customer’s car burst into flames.
> 
> While in no way attempting to make light of Locksmith’s disaster, it is very much a one-off incident. We will not stand in the way of a fair outcome in any way whatsoever. We are anxious to have this matter resolved and are in constant touch with our insurers to ensure that proper progress is made.
> 
> Wayne, the manager, has made no attempt to avoid Locksmith. We have been particularly busy in these past few weeks which have been shortened by bank holidays. Much time has been taken up trying to sort out this situation as speedily as possible.
> 
> Eric Armitage


The Fact is Wayne quite rightly kept saying sorry and that there was a kinked cable and that's what he believes was the problem. He also mentioned a courtesy car and he would call me.. ????? 
I was led to believe Armitages were going to sort the problem out and was asked to send receipts etc. to you, this I did. 
I believe Wayne was being honest, but has now been told to shut up. 
Wayne also thanked me for my understanding, I was being civil and understanding because he had admitted a mistake and seemed very honorable that he was going to put it right. 
But now I feel all the doors have been shut in my face and no answers, only to be told your insurance is sorting it out. 
I have driven that car the two weeks I've owned it before the fire approximately 700 miles with out a hiccup, in fact the day before I brought the car to you I emailed the previous owner who I purchased the car from to say how delighted I was with it. 
The fact is it had only done 2000 miles on a new engine. fitted by Smarts R Us of Nottingham and been serviced is proof enough that the car was in perfect order the fault is with you and you should be showing some loyalty to your customers. 
I was supposed to go away on Holiday tomorrow and I'm very bitter that Wayne knows this, I think that's why there was a mention of a courtesy car. 
It's a shame as you are in constant contact with your insurers they are not with mine! 
I'm quite amazed that you should post on here but I'm impressed also as you can show customers past and future how Armitages do things. 

Day 11 Armitages get in contact via Motorhome Forum


----------



## locksmith

locksmith said:


> The Fact is Wayne quite rightly kept saying sorry and that there was a kinked cable and that's what he believes was the problem. He also mentioned a courtesy car and he would call me.. ?????
> I was led to believe Armitages were going to sort the problem out and was asked to send receipts etc. to you, this I did.
> I believe Wayne was being honest, but has now been told to shut up.
> Wayne also thanked me for my understanding, I was being civil and understanding because he had admitted a mistake and seemed very honorable that he was going to put it right.
> But now I feel all the doors have been shut in my face and no answers, only to be told your insurance is sorting it out.
> I have driven that car the two weeks I've owned it before the fire approximately 700 miles with out a hiccup, in fact the day before I brought the car to you I emailed the previous owner who I purchased the car from to say how delighted I was with it.
> The fact is it had only done 2000 miles on a new engine. fitted by Smarts R Us of Nottingham and been serviced is proof enough that the car was in perfect order the fault is with you and you should be showing some loyalty to your customers.
> I was supposed to go away on Holiday tomorrow and I'm very bitter that Wayne knows this, I think that's why there was a mention of a courtesy car.
> It's a shame as you are in constant contact with your insurers they are not with mine!
> I'm quite amazed that you should post on here but I'm impressed also as you can show customers past and future how Armitages do things.
> 
> Day 11 Armitages get in contact via Motorhome Forum


 I lost my temper a bit with my reply. I have got to take Mandy for her Scan today. we were going away tomorrow after the hospital trip, this was why we had the A frame fitted when we did. 
I will post on here later if I get any news.


----------



## John H

joncris said:


> It does if you don't believe me contact Visa OR read their T's & C's
> 
> OR read this BBC NEWS | Programmes | Working Lunch | Visa debit card refunds AND don't be put off by the call centre staff


 
I was very specific in my post. The Chargeback Scheme you refer to for Visa Debit Cards is not enshrined in law but is part of the Scheme of Rules which participating banks subscribe to. Section 75 of the CCA DOES NOT APPLY to Debit Cards. The Chargeback Scheme is similar but more limited in its scope than Section 75 - especially concerning such things as time limits.


----------



## joncris

John H said:


> I was very specific in my post. The Chargeback Scheme you refer to for Visa Debit Cards is not enshrined in law but is part of the Scheme of Rules which participating banks subscribe to. Section 75 of the CCA DOES NOT APPLY to Debit Cards. The Chargeback Scheme is similar but more limited in its scope than Section 75 - especially concerning such things as time limits.


 

Enshrined in law or not YOU were misleading the OP into thinking if he used a debit card he wasn't covered when, if a Visa was used, he is. In addition it was/is proposed that all cards be subject to 75


----------



## joncris

I understand the time limit for a claim against Visa is 21 days


----------



## locksmith

joncris said:


> Enshrined in law or not YOU were misleading the OP into thinking if he used a debit card he wasn't covered when, if a Visa was used, he is. In addition it was/is proposed that all cards be subject to 75


Thank you for your discussions Barclay's are calling me in the morning as they tried to call this afternoon but I was at Addenbrookes.


----------



## locksmith

*Bad Customer Service*

Customer Service is the thing lacking here. 
I heard nothing from Armitages till today through a Forum 
The evening of the fire I was apologized to at least half a dozen times, told Mr Armitages would sort out a courtesy car so I would have been able to go away tomorrow 10th on our planned holiday, told what the fault was with the kinked cable and told I would get a full refund. 
I was asked by Wayne to send the receipts for the recently purchased Smart Car and other receipts and they would deal with it. This I did and I called Armitages to say it may take a while for some receipts as the originals were burnt in the fire along with my specs Mandy blue disabled badge etc. I asked to speak with Wayne on three occasions and was then told he was with Clients, and I need to deal with there insurance company now. 
I called there insurance company last Friday having got that information off Armitages secretary 8 day's after the fire to be told by there insurers that Armitages are not admitting liability.. I was gob smacked and that why I put this on the forums. I have still not heard anything apart from what they posted on the forum Motorhomefact.com. 
I have checked my Bank there is no money there!! 
I have checked the drive there is no courtesy car there !! 
I have checked the answer phone there is no messages there !! 


I'm afraid they admitted liability already in front of three people and made promises and have not kept them. 
The car and losses do not mean that much to me but the thought I may have to pay more to get insurance because of their mistakes and their lies of compensation means I will never except a 50/50. 
I told the man doing the demo that it was dragging before he sent me off home on the A1, I feel he should have checked further but he assured me that all was normal and give it more Welly. Wayne has said after he should not have done that!

I'm going to make this my last post for a couple of day's and give Armitages time to sort their mess out before I go further.


----------



## Deleted member 13859

*a frames*

Hi locksmith

i really feel for you, its so frustrating trying to deal with insurance companies, they just dont seem to care!!!!

perhaps you should try one of the consumer programs on the telly or citizen's advice places,   or possibly honest john in the motoring section of the telegraph.

good luck .

best wishes to you both
tranivanman


----------



## Tbear

Hi Locksmith,

I emailed Armitages as requested in this forum. In that email I suggested they post a reply for us all to see, which they have. They did not deny anything so I am guessing that they are being instructed by their insurance company. I am sorry but there is nothing much you can do to hurry insurance companies.

Richard


----------



## John H

joncris said:


> Enshrined in law or not YOU were misleading the OP into thinking if he used a debit card he wasn't covered when, if a Visa was used, he is. In addition it was/is proposed that all cards be subject to 75


 
I did not say that if you used a debit card you were not covered. I simply pointed out that when you said that debit cards were covered under section 75 you were wrong. If you try to make a claim under the wrong rules you are wasting your time and giving them the opportunity to wriggle out of paying up (as if they needed more excuses!). In particular, your advice could have lead to somebody missing the time deadline for compensation. If you are going to give financial advice then make sure you get it right. Bad advice can be worse than no advice at all.

By the way, in the Visa terms and conditions you have referred to on several ocassions it clearly states that these t&cs may be over-ridden by those of the issuing bank, so it is by no means as simple as you say.


----------



## Admin

I have added a link from Smartmania.co.uk


----------



## Deleted member 5816

*Insurance*

Locksmith forgive me if I have misunderstood is the Smart car insured if so is it not the case that the insurance company reserve the right to conduct all investigations and dealing regarding the claim. 
By posting on public forums you cannot be helping your claim surly the time to do this is if you get an unsatisfactory outcome


----------



## yankee

*Smart Fire*

Locksmiths. As a Smart Car owner and American Rv owner, I sympathise with you. I bought my 4/2 last autumn to tow behind the wagon.  It had already been fitted with a Towtal A Frame for the previous keeper so had already been towed several 1000 miles. 
I will be taking my Smart for my first towing trip this next weekend. I will be mindful of your experience for the whole round trip. 
*If *indeed the fire was caused by poor workmanship, then the fitting company should carry the can for the loss of your Smart and in my humble opinion they should also compensate you for inconvenience and stress caused by what seems their negligence.
In the days before the Internet, incidents like this could slip by without anyone else noticing and no harm being done to the supplier /fitting company by way of getting a poor reputation. But now, the web exists, all hell can break out, and it will.  In fact it already has.    Your experience is spreading faster than the fire did through you poor Smart. 

I believe Another poster has put a link onto Smart Mania for you. I have done the same on Smart Maniacs. 
Good luck to you, and please wish your wife well.


----------



## the dogfather

Armitages have lost 1 potential customer (me), and the longer this goes on without resolution the more customers they will loose. They're throwing their business down the pan.

Your experience has put me off the whole idea of towing a car.


----------



## locksmith

Alf 1 said:


> Locksmith forgive me if I have misunderstood is the Smart car insured if so is it not the case that the insurance company reserve the right to conduct all investigations and dealing regarding the claim.
> By posting on public forums you cannot be helping your claim surly the time to do this is if you get an unsatisfactory outcome


Thank you.


----------



## Tony Lee

Problem is non-members can't read their reply on motorhomefacts but regardless, from what was reported here, there is absolutely NO excuse for them NOT keeping the promises made by THEIR representative.

To have made NO attempt to contact you over several days is just TOTALLY unconscionable. To suggest that they can't because it is in the hands of their insurers is just beyond belief.


----------



## locksmith

*Thanks Tony*

Thanks Tony, I keep reading but not making and comments as I promised.


----------



## joncris

John H said:


> I did not say that if you used a debit card you were not covered. I simply pointed out that when you said that debit cards were covered under section 75 you were wrong. If you try to make a claim under the wrong rules you are wasting your time and giving them the opportunity to wriggle out of paying up (as if they needed more excuses!). In particular, your advice could have lead to somebody missing the time deadline for compensation. If you are going to give financial advice then make sure you get it right. Bad advice can be worse than no advice at all.
> 
> By the way, in the Visa terms and conditions you have referred to on several ocassions it clearly states that these t&cs may be over-ridden by those of the issuing bank, so it is by no means as simple as you say.



Despite what they claim a change which completely alters the terms & is entirely detrimental to the card holder cannot be lawfully changed without the consent of both parties otherwise its considered an "unfair relationship' making it possible to contest siad change

Anyway your posts implied he wasn't covered period. You made no mention that if he used a Visa card he would be AND it appears he did use a Visa


----------



## Tbear

Tony Lee said:


> Problem is non-members can't read their reply on motorhomefacts but regardless, from what was reported here, there is absolutely NO excuse for them NOT keeping the promises made by THEIR representative.
> 
> To have made NO attempt to contact you over several days is just TOTALLY unconscionable. To suggest that they can't because it is in the hands of their insurers is just beyond belief.


 
Hi Tony,

It is standard practise for the insurance company to insist that all contact is via them. That way everything is recorded and neither party can be guilty of harassing the other. I am sure you would agree in this case you would not want anything to muddy the waters, which is what may happen during a private phone conversation between locksmith and the other parties.

Richard


----------



## joncris

Tbear said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> It is standard practise for the insurance company to insist that all contact is via them. That way everything is recorded and neither party can be guilty of harassing the other. I am sure you would agree in this case you would not want anything to muddy the waters, which is what may happen during a private phone conversation between locksmith and the other parties.
> 
> Richard



Correct You should never admit liability (don't deny it either) To do so may invalidate your insurance because its a serious breach of the terms, you have made any defence very difficult


----------



## Tony Lee

It is possible to do the right thing by a customer without admitting liability. It does them no credit that they used this crap about admitting liability to leave their innocent customer wondering what the hell was going on when all  of this could have been avoided by the service manager making an off the record call to reassure locksmith that everything was proceeding ASAP
A concerned phone call letting him know that the matter had been placed in the hands of their insurer - and regular updates as well. Instead there was this lame excuse that they were just so busy they didn't have time to even call their worried customer back.
A courtesy car supplied as promised but on a no-prejudice basis. Easily and quickly approved by their insurers if necessary.

If they can go on line to answer the criticism, they can make a phone call. They can show a bit of concern and sympathy. They can keep their promises.
Seems to me they did none of these things and if they are condemned for it it was their choice.


----------



## joncris

Tony Lee said:


> It is possible to do the right thing by a customer without admitting liability. It does them no credit that they used this crap about admitting liability to leave their innocent customer wondering what the hell was going on when all  of this could have been avoided by the service manager making an off the record call to reassure locksmith that everything was proceeding ASAP
> A concerned phone call letting him know that the matter had been placed in the hands of their insurer - and regular updates as well. Instead there was this lame excuse that they were just so busy they didn't have time to even call their worried customer back.
> A courtesy car supplied as promised but on a no-prejudice basis. Easily and quickly approved by their insurers if necessary.
> 
> If they can go on line to answer the criticism, they can make a phone call. They can show a bit of concern and sympathy. They can keep their promises.
> Seems to me they did none of these things and if they are condemned for it it was their choice.


 
They can make an ex gratia payment without admitting liability


----------



## John H

joncris said:


> Despite what they claim a change which completely alters the terms & is entirely detrimental to the card holder cannot be lawfully changed without the consent of both parties otherwise its considered an "unfair relationship' making it possible to contest siad change
> 
> Anyway your posts implied he wasn't covered period. You made no mention that if he used a Visa card he would be AND it appears he did use a Visa


 
You would be right if there was a change but Visa's terms and conditions state clearly FROM THE BEGINNING that the issuing bank's terms and conditions take precedence. It is part of the original contract, NOT a change.

As for your second paragraph, in my first post I was responding to one very specific point about section 75. Nothing could be implied about any other part of the discussion (as I made clear in my second post). This seems to me to be an attempt to divert attention from your inaccurate advice.


----------



## joncris

John H said:


> You would be right if there was a change but Visa's terms and conditions state clearly FROM THE BEGINNING that the issuing bank's terms and conditions take precedence. It is part of the original contract, NOT a change.
> 
> As for your second paragraph, in my first post I was responding to one very specific point about section 75. Nothing could be implied about any other part of the discussion (as I made clear in my second post). This seems to me to be an attempt to divert attention from your inaccurate advice.



You ARE joking The OP wrongly thought that they had no recourse until I intervened they now know they do as they have confirmed to me

Also if they change such a fundamental term without consultation with the holder it will almost certainly be considered unfair under the UCCR & thats despite what their T's & C's state


----------



## locksmith

*Can't believe my ears*

4.41pm today I was taking Mandy to Doctors to get prescription’s etc and my mobile phone rang coming over on the hands free in my old Locksmiths van and a very nice sounding lady said her name which I missed but she claimed to be from a company who I recognised as Armitages insurance company. She asked if I had any witnesses and their details I said witnesses to the fire or Wayne saying what the fault was, she straight away said Wayne said nothing and what I had said was not true. I said “I beg your pardon” she said it was untrue and he hadn’t said anything and I have no witnesses. I take it she meant witnesses to what Wayne said but she kept talking over me saying I have no witnesses then I raised my voice and said I have witnesses you are not listening to me, I hope you are recording this as your not listening. I asked for her name and she said I’m not repeating it so you can plaster it over the internet, she then said I should be careful as I could be taken to court for slander, I said fine take me to court and I will swear in a court of law along with my witnesses, she said I was calling for this information to try and speed the process up for you ! and don’t raise your voice to me, I said ”you don’t call me a liar and expect me to keep calm and I have to raise my voice because you keep talking over me, she said she didn’t call me a liar,  her saying all what I had said was untrue, in my books is the same thing. 
Mandy heard it all so she is now aware of all that has been going on, I had kept it away from her.
I now believe that and feel sorry for Wayne and Armitages and think he was going to be honourable then this person came along. I can see now why the sudden change of attitude from them.
This lady’s threat of a slander case does not faze me as I have said everything as I heard and saw.  If she called me to make me angry she certainly has, but surely there my witnesses for my insurance company. 
In my life have never heard a professional person speak to anybody in such and unprofessional manner. Mandy say’s she has tried to scare you but she has done the opposite.


----------



## Tbear

Locksmith.

You need to talk to your insurance company, not us. They have the legal experts. Anything posted on here is made available to all and may be used against you.

Richard


----------



## locksmith

Tbear said:


> Locksmith.
> 
> You need to talk to your insurance company, not us. They have the legal experts. Anything posted on here is made available to all and may be used against you.
> 
> Richard


Hello Richard, I want everyone to see it and I also want an apology from this person, I had several from Wayne and now believe the insurance company is at fault and Armitages were going to be honourable.
She should not be saying what I have said is untrue, It was my discussion with them last Friday when they said Armitages had not made an admission's that made me post this story in the first place. I do not like being called a liar, even a barrister in court wouldn't call me a liar. I'm the injured party here.
I'm have emailed Watchdog all my posting's and I will give my story, this is only the beginning

Out & about live have pulled my thread


----------



## joncris

Tbear said:


> Locksmith.
> 
> You need to talk to your insurance company, not us. They have the legal experts. Anything posted on here is made available to all and may be used against you.
> 
> Richard



I agree to post chapter & verse can come back to bite you. That said if this was an insurance employee it was most unprofessional & you should complain In future keep ALL comminications in writing letter email.

Incidentally does your misses receive higher Disability Living Allowance?


----------



## Marcs

I remember I had similar problems when I had a non fault accident where the other party was also insured with the same company as me, (mentioning no names but a big red telephone) couldnt be the same issue could it?


----------



## locksmith

Incidentally does your misses receive higher Disability Living Allowance?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Yes she does and thank you again..... starting to calm down now.


----------



## John H

joncris said:


> You ARE joking The OP wrongly thought that they had no recourse until I intervened they now know they do as they have confirmed to me
> 
> Also if they change such a fundamental term without consultation with the holder it will almost certainly be considered unfair under the UCCR & thats despite what their T's & C's state


 
Whether or not the OP has recourse has nothing to do with the fact that you gave an incorrect piece of information (about section 75 of the CCA) which was first pointed out to you by Canalsman and others and subsequently by me. Or are you saying that the Office of Fair Trading and the Consumers Association (among others) do not know the law and only you do? 

The best advice remains that given by Canalsman - that large payments are best made by credit card, where the law is clear; with debit cards there is only a voluntary scheme and no backing in law.


----------



## locksmith

John H said:


> Whether or not the OP has recourse has nothing to do with the fact that you gave an incorrect piece of information (about section 75 of the CCA) which was first pointed out to you by Canalsman and others and subsequently by me. Or are you saying that the Office of Fair Trading and the Consumers Association (among others) do not know the law and only you do?
> 
> The best advice remains that given by Canalsman - that large payments are best made by credit card, where the law is clear; with debit cards there is only a voluntary scheme and no backing in law.


 Not to sure what your discussion is but I'm able to claim what I paid for the service provided,this is from visa and I have a debit card, not all banks are included in the charge back scheme.


----------



## John H

locksmith said:


> Not to sure what your discussion is but I'm able to claim what I paid for the service provided,this is from visa and I have a debit card, not all banks are included in the charge back scheme.


 
I am pleased that you are able to make a claim and wish you luck. I entered the discussion to point out one basic factual error in somebody else's post. It could have resulted in a claim being misdirected and even timed-out and following that up, I would, as others have done, strongly advise you to use a credit card for large purchases in future. As you say, not all banks are included in the chargeback scheme and it is a voluntary scheme anyway, so using a debit card may lead to difficulties that you would not get if using a credit card.


----------



## locksmith

John H said:


> I am pleased that you are able to make a claim and wish you luck. I entered the discussion to point out one basic factual error in somebody else's post. It could have resulted in a claim being misdirected and even timed-out and following that up, I would, as others have done, strongly advise you to use a credit card for large purchases in future. As you say, not all banks are included in the chargeback scheme and it is a voluntary scheme anyway, so using a debit card may lead to difficulties that you would not get if using a credit card.


 John, a good point and I took note you said that the other day, I have since applied for a credit card as there does seem to be a lot more protection for the consumer. Very good point thank you.

It goes against the grain as I have never had credit before, just got to use it so as not to get charged


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## locksmith

*Broker's*

I have discovered that it was not the insurance company who contacted me but the insurance brokers. My legal beagle told me Insurance companies tend to get a lot of flack which is sometimes not deserved. I am confident that you would not have had such an approach from an insurance company which is why I was suspicious about the contact. 

He has also said I might like to contact the  Financial Services Authority and report them.


----------



## Tony Lee

Seems to me that Armitages have a lot to lose from not leaning very heavily on their insurance company to sort out their mess in the shortest possible time. The insurance company isn't going to lose any business and neither will the insurance broker, but Armitages are going to remain right on the front line until they make the issue go away.

Guess they have found enough time to allocate someone to trawl through all the forums to find out what people are saying about the case.


----------



## locksmith

Tony Lee said:


> Seems to me that Armitages have a lot to lose from not leaning very heavily on their insurance company to sort out their mess in the shortest possible time. The insurance company isn't going to lose any business and neither will the insurance broker, but Armitages are going to remain right on the front line until they make the issue go away.
> 
> Guess they have found enough time to allocate someone to trawl through all the forums to find out what people are saying about the case.


 Hello Tony,
    Thanks for your comment's. A totally unrelated question but what part of the world are you in ......


----------



## locksmith

*Rapport*

It really seem's to me that the good rapport that I had with Armitages would have carried on if the insurance company had not destroyed our relationship. I had already discussed with Wayne that I needed to sort things out quickly and have them fit another A frame when the car get's replaced. although it was one the most frightening things ever to happen to me and my son, I had excepted that simply a mistake had been made. I had also looked far and wide before I had them do the work and through reputation they were the best for this type of A frame.


----------



## Tony Lee

locksmith said:


> Hello Tony,
> Thanks for your comment's. A totally unrelated question but what part of the world are you in ......



Probably needs to be somewhere with no civil-case extradition treaty with Britain.

For a change, the location shown at the top right of my post is accurate.


----------



## Tony Lee

> It really seem's to me that the good rapport that I had with Armitages would have carried on if the insurance company had not destroyed our relationship



It seems as if the good rapport was largely illusory - pretty much as insubstantial as the promises of a courtesy car and the assurances and apologies that it was all their fault - and perhaps just designed to keep you nice and quiet and compliant.  I don't know whether you have a couple of spare cars tucked away in the back of the garage for emergencies, but without a car to use for day to day errands, it must be a pain in the ... to have to get out the fairly large MH and negotiate all the narrow roads, traffic and height barriers just to get a loaf of bread.

All Armitages have to do to get themselves at least partly out of the ever-deepening morass they have bungled their way into is to help you out a little bit. What would a courtesy car cost them for a few weeks?  After tax, two thirds of three quarters of SFA.


----------



## locksmith

*The Car*



Tony Lee said:


> It seems as if the good rapport was largely illusory - pretty much as insubstantial as the promises of a courtesy car and the assurances and apologies that it was all their fault - and perhaps just designed to keep you nice and quiet and compliant.  I don't know whether you have a couple of spare cars tucked away in the back of the garage for emergencies, but without a car to use for day to day errands, it must be a pain in the ... to have to get out the fairly large MH and negotiate all the narrow roads, traffic and height barriers just to get a loaf of bread.
> 
> All Armitages have to do to get themselves at least partly out of the ever-deepening morass they have bungled their way into is to help you out a little bit. What would a courtesy car cost them for a few weeks?  After tax, two thirds of three quarters of SFA.


My transport now is my van, I had purchased the Smart car for many reasons (1) to make the regular trips to the hospital with Mandy (2) because of it's low running cost's as I'm Mandy's carer and money is in short supply (3) because it would make life much easier when I take Mandy away in the motorhome (4) I used most my saving to buy this little car when I did because it was the bargain of the century with just 1200 miles on it's new engine and in immaculate order, I would had to have saved a while longer to find another and I was left with just enough money to have the A Frame fitted.

Mandy wants me to get another Smart eventually; the two weeks we had the car with it's 70 + mpg was brilliant and she loved that we could afford to take regular summer evening drives in the country with the hood down.

So yes this car is very much missed.


----------



## locksmith

Towbarman wrote:  ‹ Select › ‹ Contract ›
The Armitage’s Smart Car Fire. Our reply. 

_While in no way attempting to make light of Locksmith’s disaster, it is very much a one-off incident. We will not stand in the way of a fair outcome in any way whatsoever. We are anxious to have this matter resolved and are in constant touch with our insurers to ensure that proper progress is made. 

Eric Armitage_


mmm ?


----------



## Tony Lee

> mmm ?



indeed.

Where is the courtesy car?


----------



## kenjones

locksmith said:


> My transport now is my van, I had purchased the Smart car for many reasons (1) to make the regular trips to the hospital with Mandy (2) because of it's low running cost's as I'm Mandy's carer and money is in short supply (3) because it would make life much easier when I take Mandy away in the motorhome (4) I used most my saving to buy this little car when I did because it was the bargain of the century with just 1200 miles on it's new engine and in immaculate order, I would had to have saved a while longer to find another and I was left with just enough money to have the A Frame fitted.
> 
> Mandy wants me to get another Smart eventually; the two weeks we had the car with it's 70 + mpg was brilliant and she loved that we could afford to take regular summer evening drives in the country with the hood down.
> 
> So yes this car is very much missed.



I understand your affection for the Smart. I used to have a 700cc passion which would do 70 mpg and was fun to own.
Our current Smart is the 1.0 litre 84 turbo cabrio which was bought for the summer top-down drives that we both enjoy so much.
The new car is faster but mpg is nearer to 45 than 70mpg. I sometimes wish I had kept the old car.
We hope it won't be long before you are enjoying another Smart with all of this behind you.
Best wishes
Ken and Cathy


----------



## locksmith

*Ex broker/insurance worker*

I found below quite interesting as this came from an ex broker/insurance worker. 

Sedge funster 16.30 14/05/11 

Jeez - I feel sorry for everybody here - except the Brokers, I must add. 

Firstly Locksmith of course as he is the one with the loss - and it's never a vehicle you were wanting to see the back of really so the fire was a bit of a bonus, is it? It's inconvenient at the very best of times but in his particular circumstances it's shattering. Poor ole Locksmith. 

Secondly Wayne at Armitages. If he did say what has been reported, he said what he said and he can't take that back. Yes we most definitely are told 'Never admit liability' but under the circs, all that instruction and knowledge goes straight out of the window - eg you skid on black ice - you know damn well you aren't sposed to panic but ........ 

So he has to explain that to Mr Armitage, who is prolly very nice, but it could be Wayne's job on the line couldn't it? Poor ole Wayne. 

Thirdly Mr Armitage. He has to deal via his Brokers who have made the situation between him and his customer far worse than it was, but he is pretty much forced to still deal via them - for this claim anyway - whatever he thinks of them and whatever he does in future. He also has to try and appease his customer and try and keep him on 'hold' whilst the insurer with whom he has no direct contact, gets on with their job. If the Brokers are numpties entirely, and not just this one person - that makes things terribly terribly difficult for them. Plus Mr A knows he is currently not getting good publicity for his business which he has spent years and God knows how much money establishing. (Where are all the satisfied customers backing you up just when you need them most? Sitting at home, being satisfied ..... LOL) Poor ole Mr Armitage. 

Bet come Monday neither of them two really want to get out of bed ....... 

Lastly I feel sorry for the insurers. Bet it isn't Wayne who completes the claim form, firms employ office personnel to deal with such things. And then that goes via the Brokers to the insurers, perhaps with a covering letter giving more details and who knows at this stage what they said? Perhaps they phoned it in to the insurers - ditto. So the guys who are actually potentially going to have to cough up for this aren't exactly getting a first-hand account of this horrible situation, are they? Poor ole insurers ........ 

I either worked for insurance companies or brokers for 40 years. I wouldn't do it again for a fat pig, thanks. And personally, we have had motor claims (notably a motorbike accident) where everything that could possibly go wrong, went wrong (including a close relative actually dying whilst we were on our way again from the scene but of course that had no bearing on liability) and we ended up eventually taking the TP to court, virtually unassisted by our ruddy insurers. And landed up with the judge awarding us more than what we actually asked for. So you could say I've seen it from both - in fact all - sides ........... 

Locksmith, insurers will sort it out. And they'd most likely do it a lot better and quicker if it wasn't for everybody else putting their own personal oars in.


----------



## Tbear

locksmith said:


> I found below quite interesting as this came from an ex broker/insurance worker.
> 
> Sedge funster 16.30 14/05/11
> 
> Jeez - I feel sorry for everybody here - except the Brokers, I must add.
> 
> Firstly Locksmith of course as he is the one with the loss - and it's never a vehicle you were wanting to see the back of really so the fire was a bit of a bonus, is it? It's inconvenient at the very best of times but in his particular circumstances it's shattering. Poor ole Locksmith.
> 
> Secondly Wayne at Armitages. If he did say what has been reported, he said what he said and he can't take that back. Yes we most definitely are told 'Never admit liability' but under the circs, all that instruction and knowledge goes straight out of the window - eg you skid on black ice - you know damn well you aren't sposed to panic but ........
> 
> So he has to explain that to Mr Armitage, who is prolly very nice, but it could be Wayne's job on the line couldn't it? Poor ole Wayne.
> 
> Thirdly Mr Armitage. He has to deal via his Brokers who have made the situation between him and his customer far worse than it was, but he is pretty much forced to still deal via them - for this claim anyway - whatever he thinks of them and whatever he does in future. He also has to try and appease his customer and try and keep him on 'hold' whilst the insurer with whom he has no direct contact, gets on with their job. If the Brokers are numpties entirely, and not just this one person - that makes things terribly terribly difficult for them. Plus Mr A knows he is currently not getting good publicity for his business which he has spent years and God knows how much money establishing. (Where are all the satisfied customers backing you up just when you need them most? Sitting at home, being satisfied ..... LOL) Poor ole Mr Armitage.
> 
> Bet come Monday neither of them two really want to get out of bed .......
> 
> Lastly I feel sorry for the insurers. Bet it isn't Wayne who completes the claim form, firms employ office personnel to deal with such things. And then that goes via the Brokers to the insurers, perhaps with a covering letter giving more details and who knows at this stage what they said? Perhaps they phoned it in to the insurers - ditto. So the guys who are actually potentially going to have to cough up for this aren't exactly getting a first-hand account of this horrible situation, are they? Poor ole insurers ........
> 
> I either worked for insurance companies or brokers for 40 years. I wouldn't do it again for a fat pig, thanks. And personally, we have had motor claims (notably a motorbike accident) where everything that could possibly go wrong, went wrong (including a close relative actually dying whilst we were on our way again from the scene but of course that had no bearing on liability) and we ended up eventually taking the TP to court, virtually unassisted by our ruddy insurers. And landed up with the judge awarding us more than what we actually asked for. So you could say I've seen it from both - in fact all - sides ...........
> 
> Locksmith, insurers will sort it out. And they'd most likely do it a lot better and quicker if it wasn't for everybody else putting their own personal oars in.


 
I could not agree more.

Brownhills, there was a list of problems which they new about and failed to sort out. This time it could be one of those freak problems that nobody could predict. It may have been with the Smart car and have nothing to do with the Aframe fitting. We do not know.

Armitages may never recover from this and go under. Putting all who work there out of work. If Armitages are guilty of repeated failures then that would be reasonable, however if this was one mistake by one person once?? I fail to see how that helps Locksmith.

Richard


----------



## locksmith

I have thought long and Hard about what has gone by. I know fault's lay with Armitages on a possible three counts but definitely on 2 and 3 (1) the fitting (2) being told the dragging is normal and give it more Welly (3) allowing me to leave without proper checks being done that would have prevented the fire. 
Armitages premises are such that you are less than a mile from the motorway putting you on the A1M very quickly. if I had not been warned by the lorry driver the lay by I stopped at would have been where I would have stopped anyway to do my checks as this was the first safe place I had seen to stop. 
I feel that Wayne and Armitages have had their hands tied by the Brokers and although Wayne did make promises to me and say he thought the fault was a kinked cable nothing that Wayne said caused the fire. 
The main thing here as far as I can see is (3) I was allowed to leave without the proper check being carried out after reporting the dragging, this would have saved the car and established the fault whether it be with the car or the A Frame, I was assured all was normal and relied on them the experts. 
I will ask if it is possible to have these threads removed on Tuesday as I realise there are peoples jobs at stake but most of all Mandy has asked me to, since the brokers intimidating call and Mandy was made aware she has been very anxious and I worried this is taking it's toll on her health, I say Tuesday to allow those who have showed interest to know why I will ask for the threads to be removed. 
This is my last posting until it's over. 
Thank you all for your help and comments including the negative one's.


----------



## kenspain

locksmith said:


> I have thought long and Hard about what has gone by. I know fault's lay with Armitages on a possible three counts but definitely on 2 and 3 (1) the fitting (2) being told the dragging is normal and give it more Welly (3) allowing me to leave without proper checks being done that would have prevented the fire.
> Armitages premises are such that you are less than a mile from the motorway putting you on the A1M very quickly. if I had not been warned by the lorry driver the lay by I stopped at would have been where I would have stopped anyway to do my checks as this was the first safe place I had seen to stop.
> I feel that Wayne and Armitages have had their hands tied by the Brokers and although Wayne did make promises to me and say he thought the fault was a kinked cable nothing that Wayne said caused the fire.
> The main thing here as far as I can see is (3) I was allowed to leave without the proper check being carried out after reporting the dragging, this would have saved the car and established the fault whether it be with the car or the A Frame, I was assured all was normal and relied on them the experts.
> I will ask if it is possible to have these threads removed on Tuesday as I realise there are peoples jobs at stake but most of all Mandy has asked me to, since the brokers intimidating call and Mandy was made aware she has been very anxious and I worried this is taking it's toll on her health, I say Tuesday to allow those who have showed interest to know why I will ask for the threads to be removed.
> This is my last posting until it's over.
> Thank you all for your help and comments including the negative one's.


 
I just want to say that not only me but many Spanish motor home owners are watching this and we all wish you the very best to you and you wife, Good luck. Ken and friends here in Spain


----------



## Marcs

Good luck mate, all the best.


----------



## Admin

*Thread removal*

Locksmith has contacted me and asked me to remove this thread on Tuesday. 

I intend on soft deleting the thread (so it can be reactivated if required).

Phil


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## Tony Lee

It is all well and good to now feel sorry for everyone except locksmith - on the basis that gee, Armitages are between a rock and a hard place because their hands are tied by their insurers - and of course there is poor Wayne. Remind me who sent Locksmith on his way with a 'she'll be right mate'. Then there are people who might lose their jobs. What people, the ones who didn't check their work?

Facts are, Armitages - of their own volition and regardless of what the insurance company said - COULD have provided a courtesy car as promised without in any way prejudicing their claim with the insurance company. They COULD even have given locksmith a new car without prejudice and hope their insurance company pays up. They could have done LOTS of things without in any way prejudicing their insurance claim or their business ---

---  but they didn't.


----------



## ian81

Phil said:


> Locksmith has contacted me and asked me to remove this thread on Tuesday.
> 
> I intend on soft deleting the thread (so it can be reactivated if required).
> 
> Phil


 
Well done Phil. I really feel free for 'locksmith' but also the supplier in this. Sometimes the 'oxygen' of publicity is not a good thing. 

I do feel that this topic was started in haste after only two working days (effectively) at a time when a multiplicty of public holidays caused pressure of work in many a small business.


----------



## Deleted member 3270

Pressure of work not let you off ?????
You get paid to do the job RIGHT !!!!!


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## Deleted member 3270

Pressure of work does not let you off ?????
You get paid to do the job RIGHT !!!!!


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## Deleted member 3802

wilthebeast said:


> Pressure of work does not let you off ?????
> You get paid to do the job RIGHT !!!!!


now now keith we all make mistakes  it's just that some of us admit it and put them right and sort the paper work out later
this outfit didn't even use Vaseline when they gave it to him:cool1:


----------



## ian81

wilthebeast said:


> Pressure of work does not let you off ?????
> You get paid to do the job RIGHT !!!!!


 
....so you never have made a cock up. Great to know perfection exists!!!!!


----------



## Deleted member 3270

Old_Arthur said:


> now now keith we all make mistakes  it's just that some of us admit it and put them right and sort the paper work out later
> this outfit didn't even use Vaseline when they gave it to him:cool1:


 
Yes sorry Arthur
We do all make mistakes 
But just that there is a long break that we all look forward to having, does not  let you off of your  responsibility for a crap job :scared:


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## Tbear

I am not trying to defend Armitages but I find it difficult to make an informed decision without hearing from Armitages, the insurance companies, the police, fire brigade, etc. I have no reason to disbelieve what Locksmith has said but he does not seem to know exactly what caused the fire. Lots of people have jumped to lots of conclusions including Wayne who it would seem was terrible upset at the thought he may be responsible and said a few things that maybe he should not have. I do think we should wait for a few more facts from the pro's before we announce a hanging verdict.

Richard


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## joncris

locksmith said:


> Yes she does and thank you again..... starting to calm down now.


 

In that case you could, as her carer, obtain a free contract hire NEW Smart Car via Motability


----------



## joncris

Tony Lee said:


> Probably needs to be somewhere with no civil-case extradition treaty with Britain.
> 
> For a change, the location shown at the top right of my post is accurate.



Bloody hell:scared: you must be on the run:lol-053:


----------



## joncris

ian81 said:


> ....so you never have made a cock up. Great to know perfection exists!!!!!


 

Appears to me the real "cock up' was *after* the fitting of the A frame


----------



## Deleted member 3802

the conversion, adapts ion and fitting side of the job sounded to be perfect,  the hand over,demonstration and final adjustments were rushed timewise 
i have no doubt the out come will be a good one *BUT* the firm failed to maintain the personal touch that they used to sell their product at the very first sign of trouble that was the *COCK UP*


----------



## Tony Lee

ian81 said:


> I do feel that this topic was started in haste after only two working days (effectively) at a time when a multiplicty of public holidays caused pressure of work in many a small business.



On this forum we heard about it on 7th May and it happened on April 28th.

Regardless of whether it was two days or 10, just how many incidents like this does Armitage have to deal with every day. They say it has never happened before so wouldn't you think that given the incident was well out of the ordinary, regardless of how busy their highly experiences executive and workshop staff were, they SHOULD have at least designated their gardener or toilet cleaner to drive a courtesy car to Locksmith's house the next day - regardless of whether it was Sunday or wednesday.

Unless Locksmith is a complete rogue and liar, his car burst into flames shortly on leaving Armitages workshop and they were the last ones to work on it. If the smart car itself was at fault then surely all their knowledge about smart cars (they claim to do one a week), they MUST be at least as aware of their foibles as I am merely from reading these forums, so when Locksmith complained about the car 'dragging", that should have set off some very loud warning bells and he should not have been allowed to leave the workshop until the problem had been dealt with.



> ....so you never have made a cock up. Great to know perfection exists!!!!!



We are not the slightest bit concerned with there being a 'cock up' Ian, although some of us consider this was more than just a simple cock-up, but what you should be concerned with, is what steps were taken to reduce the effects of the cock up. If Armitage had made even some basic efforts to reduce the aftermath, we would not be here discussing it.


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## Admin

My personal opinion (not that of wildcamping.co.uk).

Problems are inevitable, solutions are the definition of a good company. 

Unfortunately for the company here; their insurance company is in control and I am sure that they will not be doing anything that could be deemed as an acceptance of liability until they have fully investigated.

I personally would not tow a Smart Car without a special trailer. There are many reasons for this and I may do a post about it once this matter is concluded.

I hope that Locksmith quickly gets a replacement car with the towing frame fitted so that he and his good lady can continue their adventures.

Phil


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## Admin

this thread has been re-activated


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## locksmith

*Armitages*

My insurance company has been fantastic. I have a replacement car and have decided to go down the line of another A Frame.?
My insurance company have tried to get information from Armitages insurers over the last month and have come up with nothing .. no information has been supplied to them .. I have a Smart car replacement,  I'm unable to have another A Frame fitted as I used all my money on the last fit with Armitages.
Although I have another car I'm around £2100.00 out of pocket the bulk of that being the Armitages fitting cost's, with no way of getting that back till my insurance can get a response from them.


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## mikeandhismotorhome

£2100 seems a lot, when I was in Towtal I asked them how much to fit one and they said £849 inclusive.


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## locksmith

mikeandhismotorhome said:


> £2100 seems a lot, when I was in Towtal I asked them how much to fit one and they said £849 inclusive.


 If it was just for the A Frame it would be a lot but it isn't ....


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## joncris

Your insurer via you can issue proceedings against them without risking costs & as the money claim is below £5K their should be no court costs accept the issue fee


----------



## Deleted member 5816

*Locksmith*

Andrew I am glad you seem to be getting there I hope Armitages will offer you a full refund and out of pocket expenses ??  no dont laugh it may come to pass for them that wait long enough.

 How is your wife I hope the stess has gone now with a result on the horizon.

Alf


----------



## locksmith

Alf 1 said:


> Andrew I am glad you seem to be getting there I hope Armitages will offer you a full refund and out of pocket expenses ??  no dont laugh it may come to pass for them that wait long enough.
> 
> How is your wife I hope the stess has gone now with a result on the horizon.
> 
> Alf


Thank you for asking Alf, Mandy is doing rather well at the moment and enjoying the summer evening drives again in the smart with the hood down.
Thanks Alf....


----------



## Marcs

Glad to see you are getting somewhere anyway.


----------



## kenspain

Locksmith with all the 79 Emails sent from your new friends here French German Spanish we might have burnt there computer out trying to translate them all  WE Hope :lol-053:
They all wish you and your wife well and don,t let the Bar- stewards get you down,:have fun:


----------



## locksmith

Added from another forum.

Funster No : 6953
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
About Me: criminal lawyer
Interests: RV's travel, Z gauge trains Ukulele
MH Type: B Class USA 24'
MH Model: Winnebago Aspect 23D
 i have sat on the side lines

My suggestion is you take legal proceedings in the County Court seeking A) the cost of the installation, B) the expenses in respect of the loss of any insurance excess C) the reasonable out of pocket expenses you have had, travel, letters, phone calls, hire of car or other transport used like buses or train D) seek damages to be assessed by the court. If you can afford it hire a solicitor his legal costs are added to the claim as are the issue costs.

I have found over the years that people attention is more focused to an issue once a summons has arrived on there desk. The company will then be on to their insurance company to get it resolved. I will not go into the law on this as it is complicated, but I will say you do have a case.

But stop waiting for your insurance company to do something. You have the legal right to recover your loss. There are plenty of no win no fee solicitors about if you cannot fund the matter.

But to be honest I would advise you to issue proceedings in the Small claims court and go for the maximum amount you are allowed to claim. i.e i.e. it up to £5,000 made up from the losses you can show and the balance to damages and interest at the current county court rate.

Write to the company give and advise them that you intend to issue proceeding unless they settle your claim.. (same as the amount you will claim in the court) give them 7 days notice of action then go and get the N1 forms and issue and pay the court fees.. remember you will add the court fees to the sum claimed. If in doubt p.m. and I will talk you through it. Very easy to do.. The courts have made the procedure simple ... you can represent yourself and the District Judge is there to see the other side do not take advantage if they employ legal representatives and you do not. The truth and documents, photos will win the day I have found. This is not rocket science and once papers are issued it is amazing how many settle out of court.


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## Tony Lee

Seems like we all need to remind Armitages that what is left of their reputation is going to go down the drain quite fast unless they can be SEEN to be doing the right thing. Not their insurance company, not the insurance broker, not the clown who ignored you about the dragging, BUT the managing director of Armitages. He is the one responsible and he is the one who should have been keeping in contact with you and he is the one who should be sending his manager to you to pick up the new car and fit an A'frame absolutely free of charge - AND it isn't to late for him to knock on the door with a big bunch of flowers, a huge picnic basket full of rare goodies and a dozen of your favourite as well.

How about another email campaign to remind this bloke of good business practices.

See the first page of this topic for a couple of email addresses. 

Maybe Locksmith has some others and we can CC them to every member of staff.



> To contact us in office hours please call
> 
> Monday - Friday 8.00am - 5.30pm
> 
> Tel: 01977 607155 or Fax/Tel: 01977 607157
> 
> Please don't hesitate to leave a message on our answering machine if you need to call out of hours. We WILL call you back the next working day.
> 
> or email us at
> 
> info@armitagetrailers.com
> 
> anytime.
> 
> Armitage Trailers
> Unit 11
> Ferrybridge Business Park
> Fishergate
> Ferrybridge
> West Yorkshire
> WF11 8NA



Phone calls and emails. Let's get this campaign started.


----------



## locksmith

kenspain said:


> Locksmith with all the 79 Emails sent from your new friends here French German Spanish we might have burnt there computer out trying to translate them all  WE Hope :lol-053:
> They all wish you and your wife well and don,t let the Bar- stewards get you down,:have fun:


Thank you and please pass my regards to the other's also.


----------



## locksmith

Tony Lee said:


> Seems like we all need to remind Armitages that what is left of their reputation is going to go down the drain quite fast unless they can be SEEN to be doing the right thing. Not their insurance company, not the insurance broker, not the clown who ignored you about the dragging, BUT the managing director of Armitages. He is the one responsible and he is the one who should have been keeping in contact with you and he is the one who should be sending his manager to you to pick up the new car and fit an A'frame absolutely free of charge - AND it isn't to late for him to knock on the door with a big bunch of flowers, a huge picnic basket full of rare goodies and a dozen of your favourite as well.
> 
> How about another email campaign to remind this bloke of good business practices.
> 
> See the first page of this topic for a couple of email addresses.
> 
> Maybe Locksmith has some others and we can CC them to every member of staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Phone calls and emails. Let's get this campaign started.



Thanks Tony, I feel maybe people are getting fed up with this thread, I'm quite amazed at your enthusiasm and your commitment to see these people do the right thing. I personally intend to see this through to court and other smart car forums are starting to show an interest.


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## Tony Lee

More forums that show an interest the better. 

I agree that companies should always be given a chance to make good before they are hassled, but in this case they never came good with the basic promise to lend you a vehicle until the problem was sorted out. Nothing that came after has much relevance - including their excuses about needing to let the insurance companies handle it. Lending you a car had nothing to do with anything other than the companies senior representative promised it - AND once 24 hours had passed without a loan car being delivered to your front door, they set the rules, so now they have to accept the consequences.

I'll email them next time I get internet access and I'll post the email here. I'll also post their response here also. Last time they responded that they would get back to me ASAP, but of course they never did.

 If every member does likewise, I'm sure we will get a satisfactory outcome in very short time.


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## Tony Lee

I'll also suggest they read "Brownhills are Downhills" threads on the various forums so they know that there is a way they can redeem themselves. All they have to do is do what they should have done on DAY 1.

Simple isn't it?


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## locksmith

*A Frame*

A friend has loaned me the money to have another A Frame fitted, so Mandy and I can get away, I'm going to Chris Cox. Chris Cox Towing Frames Index
I spoke to Mr Cox on the phone and he explained everything, I told him my concerns and told him who I was, Mr Cox had read all about the problems I have had and has installed confidence in me that I will not have a problem with his product.
The A Frame is being installed tomorrow, this is the first time I have spoke with Chris Cox and unlike all the other A Frame fitter's he was the only one who didn't have a bad word to say about the others.


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## locksmith

*Chris Cox*

Just about to leave and get the new A-Frame fitted... feeling slightly nervous... update later.


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## locksmith

Smart-maniacs forum..
_Preview
Re: Smart destroyed by fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailSussex  
Hi Andrew, since you called me the other day I have seen the reports on Motorhome Fun and have now had my attention drawn to the pictures here. Glad you have found a new Smartie. Call me when you are ready and we will sort out something with Rob at Barley Green to get you on your way asap.
Alan
Smart-Tow_

Alan, thanks again but with very limited funds and my wife's terminal illness, my friend paid to get me on the way quickly with another A Frame, I do however appreciate the offer of of your loan trailer etc. I intend to have a smartie always and once settled and with a new Smart I will certainly give you a call.
My Wife and I have had nothing but bad luck since she was diagnosed with a brain tumour, our other problem was with the motorhome, I sold everything I have to buy the Motorhome and Smart to give her the best life I can with whatever time we have left. Please google "Brownhills are Downhills"........
So twice in less than a year I have had to call on the help of these forums who have been fantastic at letting it be known who the people are who's shoddy workmanship put peoples lives in danger and also about their very very poor customer relation's. I must stress that Brownhills as far as I'm concerned redeemed themselves 200% with me.
There are around 1100 people reading my threads at the moment.


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## locksmith

*Super Job...*

Have had my A Frame fitted by Chris Cox and have tried it out (Fantastic) I would not know the toad is on the back of the motorhome if I couldn't see it with the Camera ... up to 60mph no sweat .. checked it twice down the road and the disc's and drums are cool.

Chris Cox ... no fuss .. good clean job ... 2 and a bit hours .. took me downtown and picked me up when the job was finished.

Very very happy.


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## kenspain

Good for you locksmith your half way there now go enjoy your self let the lawyers sort the rest out for you. thats what i am doing now with my problem. you and your wife have a good summer. ken


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## Deleted member 3270

Hi Andrew
So glad you have got things sorted :fun:
So now get packed up and take the misses on the holiday of that she will never forget 
The weathers good, take to the open road and enjoy .
All the best to you both:wave:


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## Deleted member 5816

locksmith said:


> Have had my A Frame fitted by Chris Cox and have tried it out (Fantastic) I would not know the toad is on the back of the motorhome if I couldn't see it with the Camera ... up to 60mph no sweat .. checked it twice down the road and the disc's and drums are cool.
> 
> Chris Cox ... no fuss .. good clean job ... 2 and a bit hours .. took me downtown and picked me up when the job was finished.
> 
> Very very happy.



Andrew a result at last off you both now go for a weekend away to try it out
everbody note the good job  Chris Cox does if you want an A frame he is the chap to call
Alf


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## locksmith

*A Frame 50 mile test drive*

Just back from a 50 + mile test drive along the country roads and byways towing my Smart on the A Frame and it is fantastic, Just need to build confidence :scared:before I venture out onto the motorways heading to North to Scotland. 
At no time did the Smart toad with the Armitages A Frame tow so effortlessly.
Perhaps they will take note when a customer say's it's dragging in the future. My insurers are still unable to get any information, so it looks more and more like a court case, I have been in contact with my witnesses who can't believe Armitages have let it go this far after putting their hands up.


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## Deleted member 5816

locksmith said:


> Just back from a 50 + mile test drive along the country roads and byways towing my Smart on the A Frame and it is fantastic, Just need to build confidence :scared:before I venture out onto the motorways heading to North to Scotland.
> At no time did the Smart toad with the Armitages A Frame tow so effortlessly.
> Perhaps they will take note when a customer say's it's dragging in the future. My insurers are still unable to get any information, so it looks more and more like a court case, I have been in contact with my witnesses who can't believe Armitages have let it go this far after putting their hands up.



Andrew perhaps we could arrange a midweek meet in the WF11 8** area and we could all pop down and get a quote for A frames etc all meet up and have a cupa as it were well a few hundred at least is the car park VERY big

Alf


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## Deleted member 13859

locksmith said:


> Just back from a 50 + mile test drive along the country roads and byways towing my Smart on the A Frame and it is fantastic, Just need to build confidence :scared:before I venture out onto the motorways heading to North to Scotland.
> At no time did the Smart toad with the Armitages A Frame tow so effortlessly.
> Perhaps they will take note when a customer say's it's dragging in the future. My insurers are still unable to get any information, so it looks more and more like a court case, I have been in contact with my witnesses who can't believe Armitages have let it go this far after putting their hands up.


 
well done to you, hope you have a very good trip with no problems.
enjoy the both of you.

tranivanman


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## locksmith

Alf 1 said:


> Andrew perhaps we could arrange a midweek meet in the WF11 8** area and we could all pop down and get a quote for A frames etc all meet up and have a cupa as it were well a few hundred at least is the car park VERY big
> 
> Alf


 Alf .. WF11 is the last place I ever want to go, I'm even thinking I'll take M6 to Scotland instead of A1 from now on....


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## Deleted member 5759

Good afternoon Locksmith,

Pleased to see its getting sorted, won't comment on what has happened before only to say I use an Armitage A frame to tow a Renault Modus on my travels collecting vans and have not had any problems with it apart from my 'learning curve' which applies to all A frames. (It was already fitted to car when I bought it)

What I have learnt is.

1. Make sure handbrake is ON before disconnecting, especially on a slope.........................................:banana:

2. Make sure the steering lock is OFF, and wheels centered, I leave the key in ignition, drove out once and heard a slight squeal and the front wheels had locked about an inch off centre.....................:rockroll:

3. Check lights working.

4, Go round and check everything is secure before you drive off, use a check list, at our age its easy to forget something.

Good luck

Peter


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## locksmithsinbirmingham

*Locksmiths In Birmingham*

We have very relevant experience in this field at Principal Security. Time spent as bench locksmiths together with many thousands of miles spent servicing national clients means that there is nothing we have not come across.


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## Deleted member 13859

Hi locksmith

may i say how pleased i am to hear that you can now resume your travells and that you  now have got a towable smart car.

it sounds to me as if you deserve to have as much help as people can give you, good luck for the future with your travells.

tranivanman


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## joncris

*New A Frame*

Just had a brand new 'braked' A frame (with jockey wheel) fitted to our Fiat Punto by firm in Chesterfield for just £700:drive:

& these are the guys http://towingaframes.co.uk/page15.html

Drove to Manchester then back to Dorset without any problems


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