# Wild camping is legal



## sak (Jun 6, 2013)

I had to go to Keswick to do a job last weekend and it seems if you have a horse you can wildcamp anywhere you want along the A66 and in Kirkby Stephen but there isn't much space left so be quick.
Would a rocking horse do as i don't have a lot of space for a fully grown horse in my T5 ?
It seems one rule for us etc.


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## groyne (Jun 6, 2013)

Been across the A66 twice in the last week or so, no holdups at all, unlike last year when they seemed to take delight trotting up and down that stretch of single carriageway just before Brough.   Did you see them all camped in the field opposite the brick train?


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## runnach (Jun 6, 2013)

sak said:


> I had to go to Keswick to do a job last weekend and it seems if you have a horse you can wildcamp anywhere you want along the A66 and in Kirkby Stephen but there isn't much space left so be quick.
> Would a rocking horse do as i don't have a lot of space for a fully grown horse in my T5 ?
> It seems one rule for us etc.


 Appleby horse fair enjoys royal charter, Queen Liz probably doesnt know what a camper is but her ant hubsband have hosses.

TBH whether travel to and from the horse fair using horses falls under the charter I have no idea, on the premise I have no anti traveller motive it would be interesting out of curiosity to know 

Channa


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## barryd (Jun 6, 2013)

The whole of Barnard Castle ground to a halt on Tuesday night at 5pm.  I was off up to Bowes which would have taken me 10 minutes from the garage in Barney.  The whole town was gridlocked from top to bottom right down to the river.  Reason?  Horse Drawn Caravan.  There were loads of them parked on the verges in Bowes and running about the place on horses.  The A66 is not a safe place to drive a traditional horse and carriage and people have been killed in the past.

They have just moved from the fields next to the village near where we live.  The council put up 3 porta loos for them (which I pay for I presume) yet they still manage to leave bags of rubbish all over the place for us to pick up rather than take them away.  A few years ago it cost a fortune to put up a solid wooden fence to keep them off the actual village green.

We bang on about leaving the place tidier than we left it and not upsetting the locals and I dont want to have a go at the gypsies but it is one rule for them and one for us.  I have very little sympathy for a group of people who rely on others to pay for their toilets and then leave their $hite all over for us to pick up.  I think one of the reasons they now put up toilets is on several occasions in Staindrop they were seen to be emptying cassettes into the local river.

I also think they mistreat their animals.  Horses are often drowned in the river at Appleby.

They dont do themselves any favours if you ask me.


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## runnach (Jun 6, 2013)

barryd said:


> They dont do themselves any favours if you ask me.



A bit like the Wild camping community then ( I use that term loosely ) that frequent here .? If some of the posts are a reflection of attitude.


Channa


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## barryd (Jun 6, 2013)

channa said:


> A bit like the Wild camping community then ( I use that term loosely ) that frequent here .? If some of the posts are a reflection of attitude.
> 
> 
> Channa



Well I hope not.  I thought this site very much promoted the idea of looking after our wild camping spots and there are often threads about codes of contuct etc but yes your probably right.  Equally we hear stories about people spending weeks in one place, blocking views, putting out all sorts of camping furniture etc.  The thing is though, if I went next week in my motorhome and parked where some of these fellas have been parked the rozzers would be round to move me on straight away and I DO clean up after myself and dont expect to be provided with toilets at the locals expense.

Have a gypsy lifestyle if you want.  I have no objection to them living like they do.  I want to full time at some point so not much difference really but they are not self sufficient, they leave a mess and cause traffic chaos.  They also park where they are clearly not supposed to or welcome.  Sadly and this is a fact, the local crime rate soars just before and after the Appelby Horse fair.  I am sure that most of them are fine but nobody can deny the facts as I have presented them.  Like I said.  They dont do themselves any favours and I consider myself pretty tollerant.  You should hear what some of the Stalwart locals around here have to say about them.   Mind you most of them are hipocritical miseries to be fair.


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## Smaug (Jun 7, 2013)

Your post displays a townie's arrogance in my view. Horses & pedestrians have been around for millennia longer than cars & will probably be around long after they have gone. 

We get horses all the time around our lanes & villages (inc pony & even goat traps) we get ramblers, runners, cyclists, stray sheep, pigs & cattle, dog walkers & even the odd loose dogs. There are no pavements & they are a normal rural hazard.

The lanes are single track & twisty, with lots of cow parsley in the hedgerow at present obscuring the visibility, but no-one ever has any trouble and there are very few accidents,  altho a lady was knocked off her bike on a steep hill by a frightened cat some 10 years back & died of head injuries despite wearing a helmet.

Pedestrians & animals actually have right of way on the roads IIRC, so go carefully, give way to those weaker than you & have a safe journey.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jun 7, 2013)

groyne said:


> Been across the A66 twice in the last week or so, no holdups at all, unlike last year when they seemed to take delight trotting up and down that stretch of single carriageway just before Brough.   Did you see them all camped in the field opposite the brick train?



The group in the field opposite the brick train at Morton Park, Darlington, were there for a religious meeting.  They had nothing to do with those travelling to Appleby.  You could pass the same comments about caravan rallies that spring up for a few days and then leave.   

As for not being able to wild camp after or before the travellers with horse drawn vehicles descend on the area.  I have wild park by the bridge a Church Brough without a problem.  I have also used parking places right down to Sedbergh and beyond to Lancaster. 

I drove over the A66 and down to Tebay last early this week and noticed the travellers, but they didn't cause any excessive holdup.  We exchanged waves as we would with other.  There were no travellers on the side of the A66 but some were along other roads and in fields.

As a full timer who wild parks, I am no different to any other traveller.  However rubbish is not left by the roadside by ourselves.  Remember the local authority have arranged to pick up the travellers rubbish from the roadside and provide toilets as part of the preparations for the horse fair.  It is for a short period.  Live and let live.  Most of those travellers have houses just like the rest of you, but travel to Appleby as part of their tradition.  There are very few nomadic travellers these days.

John


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## Smaug (Jun 7, 2013)

And I would be astonished if the local businesses didn't need the Fair to provide the bulk of their annual profits. Banning visitors would not go down well with the shops & pubs would it?


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

After leaving the Music Meet at Hardraw on Monday morning, I drove into Hawes and parked up in the big visitor centre car park, tucked away at the end a few bays away from a caravan and traditional wagon with what looked like one gypsy family. I sat and brewed up whilst having a look at Google Maps to decide where to go or whether to risk staying overnight in Hawes car park. I figured that a white transit van parked close to a gypsy caravan would not be disturbed by the ranger as it would be assumed to belong to the gypsies. 

As I went for a walk round Hawes before deciding, I passed the gypsy van and the people sitting outside all nodded politely at me which I acknowledged, as I walked across the car park.

An hour or so later I returned to find my van surrounded by other horse drawn wagons, horses, pick ups and horse trailers. When I first saw this I felt a bit panicky but then thought, how would I react if they were cars instead of gypsy vehicles? As I walked across the car park I stopped to give a couple of horses which were being washed, a pat and chatted with some of the men around, who were all pretty busy sorting out the animals, taking them down to the river and to grass for grazing. They all stopped and made time to have a quick chat with me about where they'd come from etc, and although I was conscious of being watched, I felt no animosity from them and felt no anxiety. 

It was a nice spot and I was really tempted to stay the rest of the day and overnight hoping that I'd get away with it as it would be assumed I was with the gypsies. But I did feel that I might be regarded with suspicion by the gypsies and that I could be in their way (my van was by now right in the middle of their vehicles etc). So after another brew and some internal debating, I decided to move on for the night, albeit somewhat reluctantly as I was very curious to see some of their culture first hand. As soon as I started reversting, the groups parted and a few of the men guided me backwards safely, and then sent me off with a cheery wave, same from the women sitting outside the caravan. I was really quite disappointed that I didn't have the bottle to stay and get talking to them - on reflection it was my own prejudices, which have arisen due to the local bad mouthing of gypsies that I've heard ever since I moved to within 10 miles of Appleby 10 years ago. 

On the way home from the meet, I came along Swaledale and over the top of Tailbridge Hill into Cumbria and down through the village of Nateby just outside Kirkby Stephen. Sadly along this single track minor road, just outside of the small village of Nateby, I passed a flat spot on the common land which had very obiviously been recently used by a number of campers who had left the area strewn with rubbish (I can only presume it was gypsies, due to the time of year and the size of the area which had been used which was marked by tyre tracks, flattened patches, horse poo and rubbish).  It wasn't just a few choc bar wrappers or cans, it was lots of carrier bags full of rubbish, loose rubbish and what would be considered household waste, ie broken items etc. 

There are permanent rubbish bins in Nateby and this time of year, there are additional commercial wheelie bins put out by the council in the area. There is also a council tip in Kirkby Stephen with recycling facilities, approx 3 miles away. 

2 examples of 2 very different experiences with gypsies - I'm glad I had the first experience as if I hadn't, I would have been angry about the second and could have ended up just like many of the other local people round here who don't have a good word for the gypsies, and just see the rubbish left in their village and surrounding areas. Tthe cost of clearing it up will be met either by their parish council or by the county council, out of the local people's council tax. 

Add to that frustration, the sense of grievance that we have seen our village and town public toilets closed and sold off (in our village the public loos were used by the children at the junior school for games lessons, outdoor lessons etc as they were right next to the school field - the children now have to be escorted by adult volunteers back to school to go to the loo which is a 5 min walk away), because the council couldn't afford to maintain them (sometimes the cost savings being merely a few hundred pounds as many public toilets in villages are looked after by volunteers) but then for 2 weeks of the year, we see council provided portaloos in many local laybys and gypsy camp spots which are paid for out of our council tax. And so locals feel that we are losing a service in order for the council to be able to provide that same service, paid for by us, for the gypsies. And then on top of that, our council tax pays for the cleaning up of those camping spots and the fair field and also all the additional policing costs etc.

That said, by no means do the gypsies camp everywhere and anywhere. Having lived round here for 10 years, I have seen that they return to the same specific spots year after year, and not just willy nilly along any stretch of grass verge, so any mess is contained at specific locations. 

I do think that much of the prejudice on both sides is down to ignorance, and I wish there was more communication between locals and gypsies, so that the gypsies have the opportunity to let local people know that, just like any group of people, there are good and bad, and that the locals don't need to fear having their dogs stolen, tools nicked, sheds broken into etc, and the locals can explain to gyspies just how big an impact these 2 weeks of the year have on them in terms of disruption, inconvenience, frustration and cost. 

But to be very honest, despite the bad mouthing and prejudice, I do think that many many local businesses (especially the pubs, B&Bs, village shops, rural garages etc) do very well out of these 2 weeks, probably more lucrative than Christmas, and to have that income as a certainty every year gives their finances a real boost. 

As for horses on the roads (and horse drawn carriages), just like cyclists, pedestrians and most annoyingly of all invalid scooters, the Road Traffic Acts do not apply to them so nothing can legally be done about them on the roads. And I would certainly not support any change in law to "control" them (although I would happily exclude invalid scooters from this - which are effectively a small low powered electric vehicle, and if they are going to drive on roads like cars, then they should obey the Highway Code like cars, and drivers should be tested in competency, and trained do things like signal when turning etc - grrrrr!!!). 

I learned the hard way after my first year here to avoid the Appleby area and driving in this part of the world when possible during these 2 weeks, or to allow at least an extra half hour or hour to the driving time. Just one of those things, like trying to avoid the motorways on Bank Holidays, or avoiding the M25 at tea time. And despite the inconvenience, I really do love seeing the traditional wagons on the roads, they just seem so "right" - on some of the commons by a river to see the horses grazing or drinking and splashing in the river, and wagons parked, with a camp fire and kettle, just seems to be a natural part of the landscape and cultural heritage.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

Is that a bad thing? Surely our emotions are what makes us human and differentiates us from animals. And certainly our emotions affect almost every aspect of our behaviour, for good and bad. If we did not take the emotional route, we wouldn't be wild campers, after all!

If its down purely to the inconvience factor alone, there are many many other things on our roads that I'd rather ban than horses - to start off with as previously mentioned, electric invalid scooters :mad2:

Also - tractors, flocks of sheep or herds of cows being moved from one field to another, sunday afternoon drivers, tourists, delivery vans who have a tight schedule to meet, chelsea tractors which tail gate you on single track roads, buses which assume priority to pull out suddenly in front of you indicating only for a second before doing so, learner drivers, low powered vehicles (dare I say it, like 2CVs and heavy motorhomes!), HGVs, etc etc. For me there are so many different types of vehicle on our roads which cause me some inconvience in some way that I've just had to force myself to learn how to become more tolerant. And my grenade launcher and front machine gun switches help when I have to vent my frustration in some way :lol-053:


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## runnach (Jun 7, 2013)

Your right WVW, my mate Tony (Billy ) Peel has been to Appleby, and probably enroute to Seamer now. Yes probably lost £60 turnover, that the publicans in Appleby have recieved.

Whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages I dont live in the area so I cant really comment. 

Perception is an interesting concept, we pass places and see mess ? before it is cleaned up, then folk bleat about their council taxes etc and paying for it, I suspect over a year more money is spent accomodating and clearing after the settled community on day trips etc. 

Of course some of the travelling lot dont promote their cause, but as wildcampers do we ? 

Whilst we understand grey water dumped under a bush ( in some locations encoraged) The non motorhome community reasonably if you think about it logically assume we are dumping shyte and moving on.

How many folk on here "brag" they have visited a place and spent bugger all because they stopped on LIDL etc before their destination ...Is this use and abuse ? Enjoying a spot and not contributing a penny to the locality ? 

It is a shame you didnt stop the night they sounded a friendly bunch, I hope next time you feel confident enough to do so..

Last year outside Ullapool, I stopped in a secluded laybye behind some Irish travellers, Another motorhome seeing mine I suspect decided to pull up behind safety in numbers and all that .....woman gets out walks up the laybye sees their vans and her face was a picture... get me out of here look.......Sadly my window was open, and I said " Dont worry love, they only eat children " .......I hope she got a puncture bigots 

Channa


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## scampa (Jun 7, 2013)

Surely we could use the same argument for banning motorhomes and campervans (unless you're "full-timing")?

And for anyone who isn't sure of the difference between a Motorhome and a campervan, I saw this definition on here recently......

_"A camper van is generally a converted van. But camper van owners may like to think of their vans as motor homes (they wish!  )."_

I can't remember who said it now, but he certainly wasn't being "arrogant"!!


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## runnach (Jun 7, 2013)

What I find scary about horses ridden on the road is that a lot of youngsters who have probably never even seen a highway code are their charge.

More to the point unlike a motor vehicle of whatever description a horse has a mind of its own, and can bolt if spooked.

I consider myself as most of us do a competent driver and make allowances to expect the unexpected, If I come across a couple of young lasses taking their neddies for a trot, The onus is on me to prepare and ensure our mutual safety.

 I can live with that, part and parcel of having the privilidge of a driving licence.

Slightly OT and Im still scarred, my dad had me chasing local horse riders as a kid , He muttered something about their shyte being good for his roses. 

He never had me chase a Chelsea tractor though ? 

Anyone care to explain ?

Channa


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## runnach (Jun 7, 2013)

David, when we all think the same it will be a sad day 

Channa


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## scampa (Jun 7, 2013)

channa said:


> What I find scary about horses ridden on the road is that a lot of youngsters who have probably never even seen a highway code are their charge.
> 
> More to the point unlike a motor vehicle of whatever description a horse has a mind of its own, and can bolt if spooked.
> 
> ...



I agree completely Channa, and it worries me to see some of the riders on public roads without the correct training or experience. That doesn't mean that all horses should be banned from roads though, and forced to be transported in horseboxes several times each day to be exercised.

And for anyone who isn't aware, I believe it's illegal to ride a horse on the pavement at the side of a road where you may think they'd be safer.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

scampa said:


> Surely we could use the same argument for banning motorhomes and campervans (unless you're "full-timing")?
> 
> And for anyone who isn't sure of the difference between a Motorhome and a campervan, I saw this definition on here recently......
> 
> ...



Thank you for that definition - I don't consider my van to be a motorhome (apart from anything, it doesn't meet the legal criteria) - and have always thought of it as a camper van but I thought that the term camper van had no legal standing - that a vehicle was either a van or a motorhome, with nothing in between. 
edit : that was a genuine thanks btw, I was going to ask where you got it from, but it seems it might a Wints quote - lol, serendipity or karma or coincidence ? 

Channa, I see your point about local people bleating about council tax etc but we do have one of the highest rates of council tax here, and although tourism is vital for the local economy, we don't see the same influx of tourists here (thankfully!) that other places like the Lake District or Yorks Dales National Parks see, so the costs of tourism to the locals isn't great. And also the type of tourists here are different - they tend to be walkers doing the Coast to Coast, cyclists, photographers etc, Motorhomers and Caravanners or people in S/C cottages, rather than the mass day tripper tourists, and whilst this may be a generalisation, the walkers, motorhomers, self-caterers etc do tend to be the type of people who visit to appreciate and respect the natural environment, rather than simply to use (and abuse) local services and demand services to suit their needs eg fast food, pubs, nightlife etc. So a slightly different tourist impact in this area. edit - this is why the impact of the gypsies is so dramatic, it is just so different to what we experience here the rest of the year. 

Many of the gypsies see Appleby as their annual holiday and so, just like any of us on holiday, they have a disposable holiday spending money budget to spend, and there is quite definitely a lot of additional cash floating round in the local economy during Fair week. Friends who run B&Bs locally are fully booked for at least 2 weeks, and order in additional food supplies, the local garage orders in extra diesel, milk, bread, cigarettes, in fact extra stock for all perishables (I used to work there and although it meant additional staff costs as staffing was doubled, it was a massive income boost at a time which is not normally peak season), the pubs are busier than they are at Christmas, night after night - village pubs which normally only see that kind of trade on Bank Holidays. And as often next years bookings for accomodation etc are made whilst staying, the B&Bs and pubs, get to know them as they are the same family year after year and so that helps break down some barriers. But even so, I've been surprised and shocked when friends who run a B&B described them as dirty - I've helped them out over Fair week changeover and to be honest, the rooms didn't seem any worse than for any other visitor. So I think alot of prejudice is ingrained, long standing, and probably, like with most other forms of racism, simply because people find it hard to accept anyone who is "different" or who behaves differently to what they consider to be normal. 

And I do wish I'd stayed at Hawes, am kicking myself, as I could have learned so much, but to be honest, I think I would have felt just as uncomfortable as a stranger in any group of people, and unsure as to whether to be sociable or not.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

Me, conformist???!!! :lol-049:  Never been described as that before 

But Wints, ever since your PM, I've got you sussed, you're actually a pretty decent person, and so I don't rise to your comments any more (although sometimes I pretend to, just for amusement   )  - I just accept that there are some pretty decent people who just have some very strange views - that's diversity :cheers:


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## scampa (Jun 7, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> But Wints, ever since your PM, I've got you sussed, you're actually a pretty decent person, and so I don't rise to your comments any more (although sometimes I pretend to, just for amusement   )  - I just accept that there are some pretty decent people who just have some very strange views - that's diversity :cheers:



As I said on here yesterday WVW, we all suspect that Winty is really a cuddly and lovable person in real life, with heaps of respect and empathy for his fellow men (and women), but he *does* disguise it very well!!


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

Have you met / crossed swords with the lovely Derek, aka Derekfaeberwick, Flip Flap and Screevin? I think the two of you would get on well, you have much in common. When I say you would get on well, I actually mean the opposite, which paradoxically is exactly what you both want and hence you'd get on well.
:have fun:  :lol-053: :raofl: :lol-049: :danger: :fun:


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

[No message]


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

Ha ha ha, of course it would be G&T not a beer, I should have known :raofl:  actually G&T is my tipple too 

"young lady" :heart::heart::heart:  loving it, more of the same please 

I shall go and be conformist and listen to the Levellers latest album "Static on the airwaves", also available on YouTube - give it a go, you might be enlightened   I will if you will...

I do the same regarding downloading from YouTube although at the moment my stupid stupid Vista laptop won't run Windows Media Player properly so I can't play music on it (this has happened before and the "cure" is to reinstall Vista, but I've decided if I'm going to reinstall OS, I'd rather pay and load W7 and get the machine serviced at same time, but just not got round to it yet...)

If your wife has trained your son to treat his partner in the same way as she treats you, then I'd very much like to know if he is single and unattached...  :lol-049:


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

[No message]


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## runnach (Jun 7, 2013)

Jean michel jarre rules listen to vivaldi four seasons with patrrick rondat.

When you can open a concert at the eiffel tower with la patrouille doing their thing (btw worth a google on youtube) the lad might just be onto something
Channa


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## barryd (Jun 7, 2013)

The last thing you would call me is a Townie or a Conformist and I definitely have a Live and let Live attitude as long as your not pi$$ing other people off and being inconsiderate.  There are horses galore where I live.  Often on the quiet country roads near our village.  No problem.

However.

I doubt very much if many of you are as familier with the A66 as I am between Scotch Corner and Penrith and the fact that horses and tiny caravans plodding along at 4mph are allowed on there is completely bonkers.

It is the most dangerous road in Britain.  Fact.  Would you agree to them on the M25 or M1?   They would be much safer.

There have been plenty of accidents and even deaths but nothing is ever done.  If people had more respect then the problem would lessen but they havent.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

barryd said:


> The last thing you would call me is a Townie or a Conformist and I definitely have a Live and let Live attitude as long as your not pi$$ing other people off and being inconsiderate.  There are horses galore where I live.  Often on the quiet country roads near our village.  No problem.
> 
> However.
> 
> ...



I know that stretch of A66 very well indeed, having lived within 15 miles of it for the past 12 years, and having an elderly mother in Teeside I use it regularly. I agree that it is most undoubtedly one of the most dangerous roads, I don't know for certain it is THE MOST dangerous, I haven't looked it up to check. But to say that nothing is ever done is not true - within the time I've lived here there have been considerable major improvements to various sections of the road, which may not have cured all the problems but which have gone a long way to reducing them, ie dual carriageway in some areas, improvements to joining minor road junctions etc. As sparsely inhabited counties in comparison to other parts of the country, we cannot expect to have the same level of govt spending on our roads as other places - I'm not saying that's how it should be, but how it is. And so we've presumably got to wait in turn for more money to upgrade that road even more.

But in my opinion, the main causes for accidents on that road are speeding, the weather, and slow moving vehicles, whether gypsies, horses, tractors - all of which are common on that stretch at certain times of year. And the motoring public are given fair warning in the form of temporary road signs and overhead electronic signs when approaching J40 of the M6 and when leaving Penrith on the A66 eastwards, whether it is bad weather warnings, or horse and wagons. As it is largely a rural area, one imagines that motorists should not be surprised they come round a bend and almost into the back of a tractor, such is life in this part of the world. If people choose to ignore these warnings, then accidents happen. 

For the past 3 winters, Kirkby Stephen Mountain Rescue Team has had to rescue people out of cars stuck in snow at Stainmore. The bad weather was forecast. There were warnings on the electronic signs. But still people chose to ignore the warnings and took a risk. For some it paid off, for others it didn't and they ended up inconveniencing Rescue Team members and their families and employers, and costing the charity significant amounts in fuel. 

My point is that in many cases motorists are aware of the possible hazards on that road, either through local knowledge or through police / Highways warnings, but choose to ignore them. Where then should the blame for the accident lie - with the slow moving vehicle / horse which was the victim or with the careless motorist who ignored the warnings? 

Apart from these 2 weeks, it is very rare to see a horse and rider on the A66, nor rarely cyclists, as the road really is too dangerous for them.


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## barryd (Jun 7, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I know that stretch of A66 very well indeed, having lived within 15 miles of it for the past 12 years, and having an elderly mother in Teeside I use it regularly. I agree that it is most undoubtedly one of the most dangerous roads, I don't know for certain it is THE MOST dangerous, I haven't looked it up to check. But to say that nothing is ever done is not true - within the time I've lived here there have been considerable major improvements to various sections of the road, which may not have cured all the problems but which have gone a long way to reducing them, ie dual carriageway in some areas, improvements to joining minor road junctions etc. As sparsely inhabited counties in comparison to other parts of the country, we cannot expect to have the same level of govt spending on our roads as other places - I'm not saying that's how it should be, but how it is. And so we've presumably got to wait in turn for more money to upgrade that road even more.
> 
> But in my opinion, the main causes for accidents on that road are speeding, the weather, and slow moving vehicles, whether gypsies, horses, tractors - all of which are common on that stretch at certain times of year. And the motoring public are given fair warning in the form of temporary road signs and overhead electronic signs when approaching J40 of the M6 and when leaving Penrith on the A66 eastwards, whether it is bad weather warnings, or horse and wagons. As it is largely a rural area, one imagines that motorists should not be surprised they come round a bend and almost into the back of a tractor, such is life in this part of the world. If people choose to ignore these warnings, then accidents happen.
> 
> ...



Oh dont get me wrong I agree the main problem is down to people who are not aware how dangerous a road it is driving too quickly or they simply havent woken up after leaving the A1!

Certainly at our end (Richmond / Barnard Castle) the improvements have made it worse.  A lot of it has been dualled now but many of the little entrances and pull offs have not been improved.  My wifes car was written off last March (with me driving) when rear ended by a coach when we were waiting to turn right.  Every week there are major inccidents and whoever is responsible or iresponsible as the case may be, adding into the equation gypsies on horses and caravans for several weeks is not IMO a great idea.


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## scampa (Jun 8, 2013)

Almost (but not quite!) off topic...

One animal that definitely should have been banned from our roads before now is the hedgehog! They have no road-sense whatsoever! As I was coming home tonight one of them had a very near-death experience. Luckily I managed to distinguish it from the lumps of mud and horse-dung on the lane and safely avoid it, but it just scuttled on nonchalantly.

Obviously it hasn't learned any lessons at all from what happened to it's flat-mate last week!


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## kimbowbill (Jun 8, 2013)

scampa said:


> Almost (but not quite!) off topic...
> 
> One animal that definitely should have been banned from our roads before now is the hedgehog! They have no road-sense whatsoever! As I was coming home tonight one of them had a very near-death experience. Luckily I managed to distinguish it from the lumps of mud and horse-dung on the lane and safely avoid it, but it just scuttled on nonchalantly.
> 
> Obviously it hasn't learned any lessons at all from what happened to it's flat-mate last week!



Don't forget the little fury rabbit, darn near killed me up in Scotland, running out in middle ov road, you know about those steep drops scamps :scared::scared:


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## landyrubbertramp (Jun 8, 2013)

its prob best you stay in France wintorian il soon have to join you soon as even tho the laws is clear a good number of ppl think in the uk  having an alternative no pc opion is illegal next possibly thought crime, 

Article 10: Freedom of Expression

(1) Everyone has the right of freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without inference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. 

so as long as you not inciting problems etc having an opion is fine but it seem the media and a good number of the religious lobby groups have   a la carte approach to such laws


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## Robmac (Jun 8, 2013)

barryd said:


> ................It is the most dangerous road in Britain.  Fact.  Would you agree to them on the M25 or M1?   They would be much safer.
> 
> There have been plenty of accidents and even deaths but nothing is ever done.  If people had more respect then the problem would lessen but they havent.



I have never had a problem on the A66. I think it is quite a good road. There is no such thing as a dangerous road really. Just dangerous drivers!


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## Deleted member 26362 (Jun 8, 2013)

I have given you a like Winty, but I prefer it when your being beastly to everyone, don't go soft on us just cos WVW has been nice to you.

Daiboy


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## sak (Jun 8, 2013)

I think a few people have taken my point the wrong way, i have nothing at all against travellers gypsies etc. my point was when we leave home to go off in our vehicles we are travelling therefore " travellers ". Wild camping in England is illegal so why are the people travelling to Appleby allowed to camp illegally when the members of this forum are not ? we could all scream human rights but would anybody listen.


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## barryd (Jun 8, 2013)

I think this is part of the problem.  Travellers do "appear" to get away with doing as they wish.  I think many people resent them because they like to appear to have this nomadic lifestyle but at the expense of none travellers.  

It's "said" that they don't pay tax, people talk about them ripping people off by doing dodgy tarmacing and the like.  The crime rate appears to increase when they are in the area.  Some of them have little regard for their animals or indeed much consideration for road safety (racing carriages on the public highway is well documented)

These are not necessarily my views although some of these point cannot be denied but fr experience year in year out they do cause problems that the rest of us just wouldn't get away with.

I'm not really fussed either way but its easy to see why some of the stuffy old duffers around our way get all worked up about them.

The difference is though that most of us wild campers do care how we are perceived and thought of.  I don't think most travellers give a toss what we "country" people think about them. They neither respect or care about us unless they can make a few quid out of us.


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## Deleted member 967 (Jun 8, 2013)

sak said:


> I think a few people have taken my point the wrong way, i have nothing at all against travellers gypsies etc. my point was when we leave home to go off in our vehicles we are travelling therefore " travellers ". Wild camping in England is illegal so why are the people travelling to Appleby allowed to camp illegally when the members of this forum are not ? we could all scream human rights but would anybody listen.



Wild Camping as such is not illegal.  It is permitting someone in a Caravan (Motorised, trailer or Horse drawn) to take up habitation on your land without an exemption or site licence that is illegal.

The local authority police this, and if they find it expedient to permit it, they are allowed to do so under the same act.

John


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## yorkieowl (Jun 9, 2013)

" Dont worry love, they only eat children " .......I hope she got a puncture bigots

Channa

You call her a bigot for not understanding/accepting the travelling community, yet you are bigoted towards her without even knowing her reasons, just as bad imho.


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## runnach (Jun 9, 2013)

yorkieowl said:


> " Dont worry love, they only eat children " .......I hope she got a puncture bigots
> 
> Channa
> 
> You call her a bigot for not understanding/accepting the travelling community, yet you are bigoted towards her without even knowing her reasons, just as bad imho.



Well I didnt ask her reasons for sure, but if I were a bigot, then I would have a blanket dislike,hatred of a group ethnic racial etc.

On the basis it was one motorhome and I am part of a motorhoming community, hardly a bigot.

However to make it apparent she wasnt stopping as soon as she saw the travellers would suggest perhaps a bigoted attitude?

Channa


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## yorkieowl (Jun 9, 2013)

channa said:


> Well I didnt ask her reasons for sure, but if I were a bigot, then I would have a blanket dislike,hatred of a group ethnic racial etc.
> 
> On the basis it was one motorhome and I am part of a motorhoming community, hardly a bigot.
> 
> ...



Yes, correct on all points, but she may still have good reason, so shouldn't be judged so harshly, two sides to every story.


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## sean rua (Jun 9, 2013)

Yes, a very interesting thread, and I'd like to thank all contributors.
  However, as often the case, anybody just reading through with an open mind would be hard-pressed to know what was actually the case.

We seem to have several conflicting and contradictory reports together with the usual array of viewpoints and opinions.
 I suppose everybody sees things with his own eyes and makes his own interpretation of events in his own way to suit his own feelings.

The first thing I'll say is that the question of "legality" has been raised over and over, through the centuries. The fundamental law that we follow is 

" *the hoof before the wheel*".

In other words, the horse has precedence over the cart or anything else that came later. Of course, non-conformists and haters of tradition and custom will wish to scrap rather than conserve; they will be hell-bent on reforming and introducing even more legislation to hog-tie those they consider old-fashioned or beneath them.
 So, out go the pianos ( grand or otherwise) and in come the music synthesisers, because this, we are told, is "modern" and the way forward for the 21st Century. That's some attitude!

Never mind, the same attitude afflicts our culture as much as yours. After all, as Bernard Manning used to point out, Travellers were among the first to ditch the old ass and cart and replace with motorisation. " Fk the culture and tradition; give us a new motor!" 
 And forget the scarves and long dresses; give us the fake tans and hotpants!

Personally, I think the main problem may be largely generational than cultural. 'Tis no good my hankering for the good old days ( ended really by the Sixties legisation): the days of proper travelling the roads are gone. The right way to do it was/is at the speed of a horse and cart.
And, whereas we went round on a well-established circuit, stopping at the same old places every year, now we can find hardly any of the favoured spots left available. Those days nobody **** in the nest, for we knew we'd be back.

Basically, besides the Law taking a heavier anti-traveller stance with the increase in fenced private property, where once was common land, and, almost as bad, the huge increase in overwhelming motor traffic to every nook and cranny in formerly marginal areas,  has ruined the game.

Maybe the way back is to return to the horse and the bike, but how likely is that? 

All I know is that despite the welter of health, safety, do this, don't do that, laws for every little thing, it is almost impossible to walk the roads we did as kids. If that's progress, you can stick it.

OK, back to the mundane: the same old, same ol':

*Garbage*.

We've discussed this old chestnut a thousand times. If you're an optimist, you 'll know there is a way to deal with it. Mainstream society in major cities ( try London, for example) have managed it for years ( just about).
Events like Wembley, the Olympics; the Royal whatever it was; Thatcher's funeral; all the Festivals ( inc Glastonbury) all generate huge amounts of crap. It ain't the end of the world, imo.

*Horses on the Highway*

Newmarket, Lambourne, Manton, a thousand and one other places with riding stables, studfarms, brewers drays and milkmen, cavalry, you name it, you blame it, but you can't fkn ban them without considering the implications. In fact, 'twould make more sense to ban those big icecreamvans which some folk use to cart their sh ite about the land.
Think, before ye ban.
In any case, we probably won't take a blind bit of notice of your laws.

Right, this links nicely with the next bit of bollix. The old "Do likey" one.
The actual facts show that there is a higher proportion of Traveller men in prison than there are other sections of the community. How the Daily mail readers square this with their eternal message that travellers can get get away with things that they cannot, I don't know.
Perhaps, the truth is that we are more prepared to take a chance and flout certain laws. There is not enough time in the real world for debating whether camping here is legal or illegal. Even on this thread, folk, who reckon they do the right thing, are in conflict about what's legal and what isn't. Just read the bits about "wild-camping" and you'll see.

I deliberately didn't go to Appleby this year and the reason was that they've clamped down so hard on us that much of the enjoyment has gone. So much has been outlawed and the publicans have been issued with threats by the authorities that are so punitive, some are too scared to open.  Barefist fighting is classed as illegal; road racing is illegal. I'd guess that despite the Royal Charter just about everything to do with the Fair is classed as illegal!

All this, despite the fact that many folk are actually staying on private land, including on that farm up the top and on that field over the river down the bottom where the trots are held.


sean rua.


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## sean rua (Jun 10, 2013)

Thank you for your reply, Sir David. 

Talking about folk moving from " rich to poor" I suppose 'twill not be many moons till we are once again graced with your presence back in this old country, on a rather more permanent basis than just camping at the motor-cycle racing, which seems to have been your wont over the last years.

I shall look forward to seeing how your attempts to outlaw the horse as a means of transport fare. My view is that legislation to ban the motor-bike would be far more likely to succeed. 
*:goodluck:*.":rulez:

Over the centuries, many powerful rulers, including Hitler and franco, have tried to destroy us and our horses, but we have managed to survive against the odds.
 Only a complete philistine would think that nothing from the past has any value. Nowhere can this be more clearly seen than in the case of music. By definition, most would say that the great classics of music have developed over years long gone. In fact, without going back to that mini-discussion about music above, I would suggest that most of that name-dropping spiel that you came out with was deeply-rooted in the past.

I could be wrong, of course, so beam me up, Scotty, and send a text to Major Tom instructing him to forget all about Ground Control. Far too old-fashioned a notion for young spring colts like yourself to bother your head about!

See you at Appleby fair next year, if God spares me.
:welcome::goodluck::boat::scooter:lane::drive::angel:

all the best when you return to Blighty!

sean rua.

ps

What has become of that Fip Flap character? From what WVW said, it seems the dude had more than a few alter egos. I suppose I've missed a few chapters while I was away.


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## Smaug (Jun 10, 2013)

Sean,
I am convinced you are right about "more likely to ban motor bikes than horses"  but I fear the reason has much to do with the fact that rich (& often powerful people) enjoy their horses, but the people who enjoy motorbikes are frequently perceived as poor (despite some of the bikes costing more than cars to buy & run)

More MP's ride horses than ride motorbikes. QED


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## barryd (Jun 10, 2013)

We did see a few more caravans today on the way back from Darlington coming up the A66.  One was holding up about 2 miles of traffic and they just look so vunerable out there.  I made some comment to Mrs D who surprisingly snorted back that they have every right to be there.  Its tradition and anyway your an old hippy who wants to live in a motorhome **** so what are you babbling on about.  She has a point.  My main concern in my earlier posts was for the saftey of the travellers, animals and car drivers to be honest not because I dont like or resent them although some dont do themselves any favours.

We did laugh though on the way to Darlington as we passed one traditional Caravan doing 60 on the back of a flat bed transit.  Either he couldnt be Arsed spending days getting across the A66 or his horse pegged it in the river (hope it was the former)


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

barryd said:


> We did see a few more caravans today on the way back from Darlington coming up the A66.  One was holding up about 2 miles of traffic and they just look so vunerable out there.  I made some comment to Mrs D who surprisingly snorted back that they have every right to be there.  Its tradition and anyway your an old hippy who wants to live in a motorhome **** so what are you babbling on about.  She has a point.  My main concern in my earlier posts was for the saftey of the travellers, animals and car drivers to be honest not because I dont like or resent them although some dont do themselves any favours.
> 
> We did laugh though on the way to Darlington as we passed one traditional Caravan doing 60 on the back of a flat bed transit.  Either he couldnt be Arsed spending days getting across the A66 or his horse pegged it in the river (hope it was the former)



I like the sound of Mrs D. She sounds like she has her head screwed on right. :lol-053:


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## mark61 (Jun 10, 2013)

Awwww,  bully boy feels victimised.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> I fear that this derek would rather stand shoulder by shoulder with davyboy rather than the teachers pets who hunt in packs on here only to whimper and shout for teacher when the prey stands it's ground.
> some of the teachers seem to have pets also.
> just an observation folks. he doesn't seem the type to put up with bullies to me, what do you think? those not in the clique I mean.



Now then, that's exactly the sort of comment I would have expected him to make... 

Teachers pets, hunting in packs, whimpering and shouting, prey standing it's ground - good God, man, this is a forum, not a school playground or the House of Commons - and with all those metaphors and emotive language, I'm not quite sure exactly what your point is. And as for cliques, does that mean friendships? 

Anyway, that's enough from me on the subject of disruptive posters, I suppose I shouldn't have started it, but I did and my apologies if that was wrong, but I wouldn't like this thread to just turn into another slanging match as a result of some light hearted banter. Hopefully others will do the same and will give the petty politicking a rest, as it would be a shame for this thread to turn nasty, when we've managed to have some meaningful discussons without resorting to bickering and name calling. That's the last word from me on the matter.


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## Robmac (Jun 10, 2013)

For somebody who has only been here a few days, you seem to know a lot about this forum. Strange that!


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## Smaug (Jun 10, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> as a mere outside observer I thought he stood his ground rather well until the real bullies ran to teacher, anyway, it was not the clique's opinion I was after, all neutral observers know that.



:lol-049:

Nice try, troll.


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## sean rua (Jun 10, 2013)

WVW,

        You've got me shtumped. Whoever can you be talking about? Don't tell me we have yet another attention-seeker using yet another alter-ego? 
Personally, i'm not convinced that Northener and ALF HUCKER have gone away entirely, either.   That's the internet forum ( "social media"?) for you, I suppose. 

Davey,

 You partly missed my point: classical music ( something I quite like myself) is a thing from the past, imo. That doesn't detract from it, imo. That was all. I didn't mind you going off-topic one bit. It tends to be the done thing, whenever the "T" word is mentioned.  You didn't "see" or "taste" any "sour grapes" coming from my direction.

*" The Hoof before the Wheel*".


Barry,

  No worries. I meant to mention last time that the majority of vardos are low-loadered or piggy-backed on more modern trucks for distance work. A vardo wasn't meant to go much more than twenty miles a day.
Thing of the past? Undoubtedly, but no probs. All a bit like steam engines attending a show, I guess.

Smaug,

 Yes, another thing I forgot to mention last time was that most owners of horses across the globe are classy and rich ( perhaps 'tis my turn to be in the minority this time, but i ain't gonna cry or blub. 

*" The Sport of Kings"*.

But, like I've often noted on these here fora, the real upper echelons of society ain't nowhere near as bad as the jumped- up whippersnappers of the middleclasses. These are the dudes that Sir David should address when he's chatting about "sour grapes", in my opinion.

We can work it out; we've had plenty of *experience*, which is another thing that can only come with *age*.

Googling and book-learning ain't a patch on the real thing. A bit like sex, i suppose, though my memory ain't so good nowadays. 

Btw, I told everybody for years that google is the CIA, but, as ever, I was met with derision. Everything comes to those who wait. Trouble is I'm fast running out of the most precious thing of the lot: time.

All the best!

sean rua

Ruler of the World ( Derby winner 2013). Get in!


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

sean rua said:


> WVW,
> 
> You've got me shtumped. Whoever can you be talking about? Don't tell me we have yet another attention-seeker using yet another alter-ego?
> Personally, i'm not convinced that Northener and ALF HUCKER have gone away entirely, either.   That's the internet forum ( "social media"?) for you, I suppose.
> ...




:lol-053: :cheers:


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## barryd (Jun 10, 2013)

Anyone just watched the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding "Life on the Road"?

It would seem that travellers these days are definitely not allowed to pitch up where they like and stay for months on end.  Well thats what this program portrayed.  The group of I guess 20 vans were moved on no less than 20 times in one month.

I started to feel sorry for them.  IT cant be much of a life, especially for the children.  I thought there were traveller sites but I think this was part of their gripe that there aren't any.

I kind of lost sympathy though when the two blokes were haggling a bike dealer for a quad bike and one of them having knocked the price down then proceeded to try nicking some engine oil and got caught!  

I should have more in common with them.  All I want to do is travel and see the world from my van.  Maybe do a bit of work (although maybe not).  Its no wonder fewer are bothering to travel anymore though as it clearly isnt easy for them like we assume it is.  has the law changed as they certainly did used to park up and stay for months and certainly on the routes to appelby they do (perhaps things are more relaxed around the fair).


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## Smaug (Jun 10, 2013)

Councils were required by law to provide sites for Gypsies, but very few did & those that did ended up as static sites. The Tories repealed the law quite recently & continue to harry people in caravans, motorhomes & on canal boats that wish to live an itinerate life style. 

Having "no fixed abode" is generally seen as tantamount to being guilty - err,  of everything.

We too, are in the line of fire.


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## barryd (Jun 10, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Councils were required by law to provide sites for Gypsies, but very few did & those that did ended up as static sites. The Tories repealed the law quite recently & continue to harry people in caravans, motorhomes & on canal boats that wish to live an itinerate life style.
> 
> Having "no fixed abode" is generally seen as tantamount to being guilty - err,  of everything.
> 
> We too, are in the line of fire.



And I think this is what I felt tonight watching that program.  There is common ground.  I like the idea of an itinerate lifestyle although I would never dream of just parking where I like or taking over a public park or football pitch as was the case in the program but they did seem kind of stuffed.  At least we can go on a CL or a small remote wild spot.  These Gypsies are a bit buggered really.  I can kind of see the appeal to them of going back to the traditional ways for a few weeks around the Appleby show.  I imagine much of the talk will be of the good old days of travelling (when they could) I kind of wish I hadnt been so condemming of them earlier really but I still think that some of them do their public image no good whatsoever.


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## runnach (Jun 11, 2013)

barryd said:


> And I think this is what I felt tonight watching that program.  There is common ground.  I like the idea of an itinerate lifestyle although I would never dream of just parking where I like or taking over a public park or football pitch as was the case in the program but they did seem kind of stuffed.  At least we can go on a CL or a small remote wild spot.  These Gypsies are a bit buggered really.  I can kind of see the appeal to them of going back to the traditional ways for a few weeks around the Appleby show.  I imagine much of the talk will be of the good old days of travelling (when they could) I kind of wish I hadnt been so condemming of them earlier really but I still think that some of them do their public image no good whatsoever.



The problem is Barry as I see things, Public image albeit it should ..doesnt feature that high on the wish list, If you feel you are against the wall, you soon revert to Survive in order to put bread on the table ...If any community feels under the Kosh Maslows hierarchy of needs holds true and the perception of others about you is way way down the list .

Can you name a political party, local authority, who has had the balls to offer travellers an olive branch ? you will need to think hard.

If you feel that community has castigated you , its surely no surprise that the same community is treated with suspicion and at times disdain 


Channa.


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## rach82 (Jun 11, 2013)

*Horses on the road*

Hi All,

This is not to do with the original post on travellers but to do with some of the comments made thoughout the thread.

As an experianced horserider, a fairly new motorhomer, a keen walker and a driver for 6 years I would just like to put my point across to some of the comments on here.......


1) Personally - I do think every form of transport should be allowed on the road (walkers / horses / cyclists / runners / motorbikes / cars / motorhomes / buses etc etc) It is how we all treat each other on the road that makes the difference and stops accidents. We all have our pet hates (mine being cyclists that ride in massive groups taking up a cars width and a buses length!) but we learn to deal with it - be patient and use our common sense to pass when it is safe.

2) Like with all groups of any kind - there are bad ones - there are bad motorhomers, bad horse riders, bad drivers, bad cyclists, bad walkers etc etc .... the list is endless.......

3) There are also good ones. 

4) I totally agree its not ideal to have horses on main roads (we really would prefer not too!) but to get to some of the bridleways you need to use a main road and in many cases/ areas there just isnt anywhere other than roads to ride on. Hacking out can be a major part of most horses / peoples lives. (some horses may only be able to hack out because of medical reasons / it is a nice change for the horses routine and so much more which I wont go into)

5) There are not nearly enough bridleways - many footpaths would be perfect for horses but they choose to put a stile up instead of a gate. I have my horses at a fairly large livery yard but it leads onto a main road, it is at least 20 minutes ride away (and much longer) to even reach a bridleway or the country lanes. I have ridden out on this road many times and luckily my horse is very good - but the speed at which motorists go past, and also how close shocks me? Is it really that hard to slow down for say 60 seconds and overtake at a suitable distance. Yes horses are unpredictable - but so are people. I have been out on one of the safest horses you can get but he still spooked at a lorry going past at 60mph with a rattling trailer flying about with ladders hanging off and inches away from me - and this wasnt a one-off, this happens all the time.

6) To say horse riders should just put their horses in a wagon and take them elsewhere is unreasonable. Not all riders have access to a trailer or wagon and hacking out can be part of a daily routine.

7)I totally agree with the comment about young riders being out on the road who may not even yet know the highway code - I feel this is a parental issue and they should not be allowed out without supervision.

8)There are may experianced and considerate riders out there. I consider myself one of them. I know it annoys a lot of people when riders are double breasted but normally (i use that lightly) there is a reason, most of the time it is due to inconsiderate drivers and the riders do this to slow the traffic down if they are not passing wide and slow. Also younger more inexperienced horses need to learn - as do learner drivers.

As a walker - some of out routes reqiure roads, again I am shocked at how motorists pass
As a driver - I am shocked at how some people drive
As a motorhomer I am shocked at how some people leave rubbish behind

I havent made a lot of points on here but I hope you get my drift.............

oh - and I suspect not all travellers are bad too!


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## Robmac (Jun 11, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> never heard of guests o bright one?



Well you don't exactly come across as brain of Britain yourself!

Just a rather sad person really. And you say that Derek/Flipflap/Screevin (or of course his latest alias) was bullied? By his own admission he was an aggressive poster. If you dish it out, you have to be prepared to take it back and not start crying when you get a little bit back.


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## sean rua (Jun 11, 2013)

Wildcamping for horses?

-The Silver Brumby: Wild Horses - YouTube


Getting with it and "kule"?

Get On My Horse (WoW Heavy Metal Edition) Extended - YouTube


Have a nice day; enjoy; take care, etc. :cheers::shag::egg:


sean rua.


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## barryd (Jun 11, 2013)

sean rua said:


> Getting with it and "kule"?
> 
> Get On My Horse (WoW Heavy Metal Edition) Extended - YouTube
> 
> ...




Loved this one!  Bonkers but brilliant.

I have never had much luck with horses.  When I was 18 my girlfriend was obsessed by them and had her own horse which she clearly cared for more than me.  After several pints one afternoon it was decided I would have a go on the horse outside the pub which was on one of the main roads out of Darlington.  She promptly wacked its arse and off it went tearing up the white line with me bouncing around on the back of it not knowing where the brakes were or how to turn the damn thing around.

Second time was on the beach where I was getting the hang of it until it ran into the sea, promptly stopped and sent me flying over its handle bars (head?).

I eventually got the hang of it whilst in Greece with Mrs D where we had lessons up in the mountains with a German instructor who was brilliant.  Problem was they were Greek horses but German commands and on the few occassions I have since had a go back here none of them worked.

If God meant us to ride horses he wouldnt have invented Motorcycles if you ask me.

Sorry.  Back on topic.


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## scampa (Jun 11, 2013)

Unfortunately, so are many motorcycles and cars, whose riders/drivers, however well qualified, are much more likely to be the cause of road accidents than the average horse-rider. Should all motorcycles and cars that are being used for pleasure be "transported" to safe off-road play areas before they are let loose?

And as there were far less multi-horse pile-ups in the old days than there have been multi-car pile-ups since, surely the more horses we have on our roads the safer we would be?

I think that learning to ride a horse competently should be compulsory for everyone, before being allowed to take charge of any motor vehicle!


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## scampa (Jun 11, 2013)

Considering that we used horses for many more years than we have used cars, why do you think it is that we use the word "*car*nage" much more than the word "*horse*age"?


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## scampa (Jun 11, 2013)

Ah, at least we are agreed that bikers and car drivers can be just as guilty of using our roads to "play", albeit at different speeds.

As for those "rude" horse-riders that you've passed, maybe they were friends of those poor semi-literate policemen that you are so rudely insulting?


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## Smaug (Jun 11, 2013)

[No message]


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## sean rua (Jun 11, 2013)

Some very reasonable points and some more silly negativity on the thread! Thanks to all, anyway.

It is patent nonsense to suggest that all horses on the road are only at play: I'm sure the horseguards, cavalry, draymen, timbermen, milkmen, policemen ( sorry, Dave, but I just couldn't leave these "dimwits" out ), commandos in Afghanistan, racehorses crossing the road ( yes, you may witter on about "cruelty" and "play", but these horses actually earn Great Britain and her RESIDENTS far more in £s IN THIS COUNTRY than any off-shore, tax-dodging ex-speculator BANKERs ever did),
funeral directors, carters of every description, riding schools, etc etc
do NOT consider their work to be mere "play".

In fact, this anti-horse thing seems to be total bollocks! The sort of sh ite that the likes of Monkey, ALF HUCKER,  Northener, and Derek, Shtumple, Screevin Flip Flop would come out with in their shlabber.

I was going to post up a fine example of a great road race in Cork, but, because I like David,  and think he must be Dick Emery re-incarnated,

here's a clip in which his good self and Shtumple show us plebs how life should really be lived:

Gazebo - I Like Chopin - Gazebo - YouTube

Obviously, we have a lot to learn and are never going to make the grade.  However, should David and Derek ever seize power in this country ( when they return), all I can say is God help us! You ain't got a fkn clue, imo! 

Oh, btw, here's one featuring all the terrible folk ye'll have to keep in line;

Colt Ford - No Trash In My Trailer - YouTube


All the best!

sean rua.


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## scampa (Jun 11, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Point of order;  Carnage is derived from the French "carne" for meat, nothng to do with cars, altho I see the point.



Sorry Smaug, *Car*nage was simply a juvenile attempt at word-play humour!

Taking some of my comments too seriously could be *car*tastrophic  ( from the Greek "katastrephein", meaning "making it up as I go along"!!)


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## sean rua (Jun 11, 2013)

Impossible pontificating from on high and at a great distance from reality yet again. Thanks, David and Derek.

Btw, you didn't say you liked the music, so here's another:

Adan Chalino Sanchez Me canse de morir por tu amor YouTube - YouTube

Always remember:* " The Hoof before the Wheel*".


regards,

Sean Rua.


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## iveco4x4 (Jun 11, 2013)

Interesting how a bunch of people who on the surface want to be left alone to do what we want have views on how other people should live there lives and want restrict others. I think the average fit horse is probabily faster than my camper 

Rich


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## Deleted member 967 (Jun 12, 2013)

Hi Guys

If you read this old news post BBC News - Verges and lay-bys blocked for Appleby Horse Fair you will see that the travellers using Horse Drawn Caravans are permitted to wild Camp on the road side (Signs posted) but those who use motor vehicles have to use designated parking areas.

There are also problems that need to be address of educating some of these travellers about waste disposal, which is to be now addressed.  BBC News - Pledge to tackle Appleby Horse Fair disruption

A few service points along our road network would go a long way in eliminating antisocial disposal, even by some on these forums, who allow their waste to foul the carriageway.  

John


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## sean rua (Jun 12, 2013)

Thank you Iveco 4x4 for your reply, and,
 as ever, a big thank you to Mr Thompson for giving us the actual legal position.

It is noted that the plans of the puritans to introduce even more bureaucratic restrictions by way of further legal tampering with by-laws etc
would cost a fortune, most of which would have to be borne by those who actually live and work in this country.
Of course, more bureaucracy would put more money into the pockets of the "legal eagles" ( parasites) who are their friends.

---

*Sir David*:

I was enquiring about the "Chopin" clip. Didn't you see yourself in it? There again perhaps your imagination is not quite as vivid as that of our other Walter Mitty character, young Derek.

*Young Derek*:

Isn't it time for your tablet, laddie? 
Apoplexy isn't a healthy thing.
Btw, is it still half term or something? Shouldn't you be thinking about getting your homework ready, instead of scouring the internet to find free places on fora where you can dump your "grey and black" puritan's maiden's water?

Just a few pennies a week for membership here and all you can scream about is fkn taxation. 

All the very best to you and Dave!

Andy Irvine - Never Tire Of The Road - YouTube


sean rua

*" The Hoof before the Wheel."*


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 12, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> and it's us who pay the road tax eh.. ****, worraneffin liberty, bloody pike eez and their s#it..



Post reported for being offensive, abusive and racist.


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## Sky (Jun 12, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> and it's us who pay the road tax eh.. ****, worraneffin liberty, bloody pike eez and their s#it..



If you are not FlipFlap, then you just joined him on my ignore list.  If you have nothing constructive to say then please say nothing.

It's people like you that cause the problems we have in our society.


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## runnach (Jun 12, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> Post reported for being offensive, abusive and racist.



Your choice WVW, but I am sure most people can see through it, perhaps reporting results in a new account and more of the same diatribe

Channa


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## runnach (Jun 12, 2013)

Not that your reference to policeman being semi literate would be offensive to serving police officers on the forum David.

Channa


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 12, 2013)

channa said:


> Your choice WVW, but I am sure most people can see through it, perhaps reporting results in a new account and more of the same diatribe
> 
> Channa



“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [wo]men to do nothing.” 
― Edmund Burke

“Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little.” 
― Edmund Burke

“Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength.” 
― Edmund Burke

“Never apologise for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologise for the truth.” 
― Edmund Burke


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 12, 2013)

An old saying from a previous life...

Brains baffles bull****... or was it the other way round?


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## runnach (Jun 12, 2013)

Schtumples said:


> and there endeth the monologue.
> 
> violins then curtains. lol.


 What ? every good show ends with fireworks....The visual kind, that stimulate ones cerebral senses to the core.

Channa


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 12, 2013)

channa said:


> What ? every good show ends with fireworks....The visual kind, that stimulate ones cerebral senses to the core.
> 
> Channa



No fireworks from me, I am surprisingly in control of my emotions at the moment, makes a pleasant change :lol-053:


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## and123wills (Jun 12, 2013)

Wintonion don't you get fed up with regurgitating the same  old drivel over and over again? you say you like a debate!!! but your augments about different topics end up being identical. You have  nothing fresh or new to any of your views. 

I look forward to and anticipate your cyclic reply of little man in wales with no education, or something as predictable.


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## runnach (Jun 12, 2013)

Surely, part of comprehension of the English language is reading too ? And I never mentioned the word Insult.

Btw it seems your book is perhaps different to the rest of us, perhaps considering the language you use in a post and the limited communication afforded by a forum may result in a reader putting inflection where it wasnt intended........perhaps with your grasp, something you should consider.

I just hope when you are back in the Uk, and you have cause to call the Police to assist you remember to request one that attends your plight that isnt "dim". Worse still French plod should something happen dont treat you has a semi literate French speaking dimwit.

Channa


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## GeoffB (Jun 12, 2013)

We were looking for a wild campsite that way last year at this time, was amazed by the quantity of wild camping going on.  Eventually we stayed in the layby below Wild Boar Fell just over the Settle-to-Carlisle bridge and the next morning saw a stream of horses and carts heading for Appleby down that road.  I spoke to one guy leading a horse and toting an air-rifle, which he told me he used to shoot pheasants and rabbits as he went along (in other people's fields, no doubt).  The law that says it is illegal to use an airgun with 50ft of a public road obviously doesn't apply to travellers!

Maybe we should send such offenders to "take the black" and man the wall in the far north?  Winter is coming!:king:


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## runnach (Jun 12, 2013)

David, assumed ? 

Come on you know, Assume makes An ass (of ) U (and ) me.

Seems all of us never cease learning.

BTW Why were the Gendarmes speaking English?. reserve that for home.

You are right no nit picking now 

Channa


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 12, 2013)

channa said:


> David, assumed ?
> 
> Come on you know, Assume makes An ass (of ) U (and ) me.
> 
> ...



:sad:  that's a shame, I was quite enjoying it  

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/look-out-for-flying-pigs.png


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## carol (Jun 12, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> :sad:  that's a shame, I was quite enjoying it
> 
> http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/look-out-for-flying-pigs.png



Now now WVW don't encourage disharmony! :lol-049:


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## rach82 (Jul 5, 2013)

If horses are 'playing' on the road - what are most motorbike riders doing? Most - yes I am saying MOST - motrobike riders do this as a sport, as a hobby (i.e this is not there everyday transport) - and they are the ones who are driving 100mph down the roads causing accidents - usually to themselves! How many motorbikers have died on the road compered to horse riders in the last year????


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## gaz2676 (Jul 6, 2013)

OMG....nuff said


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## ricc (Jul 6, 2013)

did you bother to absorb the meanings of offensive and insulting whilst pontificating on the difference between them earlier in the thread?  cos in my view they both apply to your last post .

take your time responding cos i wont be reading whatever you respond with till late this evening.


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## runnach (Jul 6, 2013)

David, Rach82 makes a valid point, most motorcycles are ridden, in a recreational sense,and there are lunatics who seem to pilot them.

Matlock Bath , Squires Cafe, and I suspect Scarborough this weekend will be rammed to the rafters with bikes. And dont overlook that at all three venues the Old Bill show an interest, with their speed cameras........in fact only about three weeks ago was there one of these reality tv programmes with the trafpols and guess where Squires.

As you are aware I have ridden too, and I speak from first hand experience.

Also dont forget the Cat and Fiddle is restricted to 50 mph nowadays, quite often helicopters are used too, to catch the madmen.

I suspect also Rach is correct that per capita more Motorcyclists are killed than horse riders.

regards 

Channa


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## vwalan (Jul 6, 2013)

far better to kill the horses though they taste nice . is that why you lived in france ,hee hee cant beat anice chewy steak bought from the french super market .


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## runnach (Jul 6, 2013)

vwalan said:


> far better to kill the horses though they taste nice . is that why you lived in france ,hee hee cant beat anice chewy steak bought from the french super market .


as Fergy51 states, taste better than an old Norton or Mobylette for that matter

Channa


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## scampa (Jul 6, 2013)

On a positive note, the more time that Winty spends insulting people on here, the less time he has to go out terrorising innocent road-users on his motorbike! :scooter:


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## vwalan (Jul 6, 2013)

do they fit in baguettes ?


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## maingate (Jul 6, 2013)

Fergy51 said:


> Never tried Mobylette yet, but I suspect you are right though.



Is a Mobylette a small Whale?


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## vwalan (Jul 6, 2013)

no but i heard a story of someone wild camping in a whales ,


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## maingate (Jul 6, 2013)

vwalan said:


> no but i heard a story of someone wild camping in a whales ,



You are a right Jonah Alan.


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## rach82 (Jul 7, 2013)

How is my post ignorant? I have made valid points on all forms of transort on here yet you still think because you ride a motorbike and you like it it is ok? it is a hobby for many people isnt it? Like horse riding?


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## rach82 (Jul 7, 2013)

channa said:


> David, Rach82 makes a valid point, most motorcycles are ridden, in a recreational sense,and there are lunatics who seem to pilot them.
> 
> Matlock Bath , Squires Cafe, and I suspect Scarborough this weekend will be rammed to the rafters with bikes. And dont overlook that at all three venues the Old Bill show an interest, with their speed cameras........in fact only about three weeks ago was there one of these reality tv programmes with the trafpols and guess where Squires.
> 
> ...



Thanks Channa x


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## n brown (Jul 7, 2013)

rach82 said:


> How is my post ignorant? I have made valid points on all forms of transort on here yet you still think because you ride a motorbike and you like it it is ok? it is a hobby for many people isnt it? Like horse riding?


 don't bite Rach,that's what he feeds on. I once replied to him with a light hearted remark and was shocked by his reaction,incredibly rude,never engaged with him since


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## vwalan (Jul 7, 2013)

for many its a way of getting to work .i used a m,bike almost all my life to get to work. rain snow or blow . from borrowing my mums 50cc step through in emergency to riding a 1500cc v twin . all used as ride to work bikes . worse is when the hunts used to go out . make a mess all over the place . does seem better now with no hunts . as it is i dont ride fast . i just like the wind in my face . not keen on horses . but dont mind camels they seem much more useful.


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## rach82 (Jul 7, 2013)

n brown said:


> don't bite Rach,that's what he feeds on. I once replied to him with a light hearted remark and was shocked by his reaction,incredibly rude,never engaged with him since



Thanks x - I may be not be as good as other people on here with words but I try to put my point across without offending anyone. He is very one -sided though - cant see anyone elses point of view - which I hope I can even if I dont agree with it?


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## runnach (Jul 8, 2013)

rach82 said:


> Thanks x - I may be not be as good as other people on here with words but I try to put my point across without offending anyone. He is very one -sided though - cant see anyone elses point of view - which I hope I can even if I dont agree with it?


David is showing a reticence, which manifests itself, when his comments on reflection even sound stupid to him.

Channa


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## Smaug (Jul 8, 2013)

C'mon David, 

This isn't an anti-bike brigade, I love bikes myself & spent years commuting on them. Nor has anyone said that all bikers only go on loony rides, but we almost all do sometimes, don't we? There is no need to see everything in just black & white, there are 50 shades of grey (or so I have been told by lady acquaintances). 

Please just accept that what Rach said is largely true, there's no need to take it as a personal affront, just cos someone corrects one of your wilder rants. And there is no benefit to starting another silly row over nowt, unless you are amongst the sick few that are immature enough to feed on other's discomfort.


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## vwalan (Jul 8, 2013)

but is it largely true .?
i dont agree with that statement .
i think most dont actually acknowledge the quieter rider .they go past unnoticed . but a loud fast bike is seen every time . so the thought is they all ride like that. 
i for one have a 1500cc bike thats so quiet i could ride right up to folk and they dont know i,m there . 
i dont believe loud pipes save lives ,but only annoy people. 
there are sensible horse riders yet some not so. riding two three abreast round here . 
i also give wide berth and slowly drive by. 
after all i would get the blame if anything happened . 
unfortunately it seems to me horse riders dont look around dont look behind . ,there used to be that horses rode into traffic as that changed now?
it should help takr the suprise away .
it as come across as anti boke . 
should have been anti tipping water in a village .or why didnt the shopkeeper say something at the time to the culprit.


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## Smaug (Jul 8, 2013)

Whatever.

I like dogs, bikes (pedal & vroom), cars, horses, boats (sail & motor, kayaks & canoes), Campers, caravans, friendly people, and I don't see the need for infighting between any of them.


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## and123wills (Jul 8, 2013)

[No message]


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## geebus (Jul 8, 2013)

rach82 said:


> Most - yes I am saying MOST - motrobike riders do this as a sport, as a hobby (i.e this is not there everyday transport) - and they are the ones who are driving 100mph down the roads causing accidents - usually to themselves! How many motorbikers have died on the road compered to horse riders in the last year????


Care to clarify how you worked that out?

I've often ridden motorcycles - I've ridden them a hell of a lot more for utilitarian reasons than others.  And the same said for a lot of people I know that ride.
Those that ride purely for leisure don't tend to take up a massive amount of the road network mile-hours.

Focusing on speed (done on both sides here) is one of the things those that cause accidents do, to my mind.
I've ridden at 100mph with a marked cop bike just behind me 'out for a ride' (bike safe day) and the cop was happy with the speed as it was safe to do so.
In other conditions 50mph might be too fast for a section of NSL dual carriageway.

I'd prefer to focus on safety, not one fairly small factor.

I believe that as an activity, horse riding and motorcycling a fairly similar - horse riding may actually be more 'dangerous'.

Also, the vast majority of the time, the horse rider is the one in most danger and there's relatively little danger to others - certainly when compared to driving a car or bigger, say.

As for "it's the other people" - well, the trick is to learn to not get involved in their problems.

In my experience, people in motorhomes, caravans and those 'wild camping' (apart from those on bikes) tend to hold up other traffic - I had a lovely queue behind my motorhome (or should that be campervan, sorry?) the other day.  And why I driving it on the roads?  Why to go to two festivals and visit family.  Purely 'leisure' purposes, so reckon they should be banned too.

And cycles, of course - most cycling is done just for leisure.

I have no problem with others using the road that may have 'special requirements'.


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## scampa (Jul 8, 2013)

I found this on youtube:

What's more dangerous: motorcycles or horses? - YouTube

Bear in mind that it's from the USA, where, like France, they all ride on the wrong side of the road anyway, which must only add to the danger! :danger:


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## scampa (Jul 8, 2013)

About a quarter of the motorcyclists were killed by highly irresponsible stationary objects, such as trees.


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## mark61 (Jul 8, 2013)

Horses are tastier.


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## geebus (Jul 8, 2013)

scampa said:


> I found this on youtube:
> 
> What's more dangerous: motorcycles or horses? - YouTube
> 
> Bear in mind that it's from the USA, where, like France, they all ride on the wrong side of the road anyway, which must only add to the danger! :danger:



Also, bear in mind it's from youtube, which means it should immediately be viewed as likely to be incorrect unless there's evidence to suggest otherwise.

A quick google got me:
"Over 100 deaths per year are estimated to result from equestrian related activities, with 10-20 times as many head injuries occurring for each fatality."

2 people dying for all of the USA sounds very low for something with a wide variety of intrinsic dangers.


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## vwalan (Jul 8, 2013)

i,m lucky my neighbour brings me lots of fresh fish as he works at sea on a mussel farm .but shame he cant bring me nice horse steaks . mind that david could bring me some next time he pops over from france .thats one of the nice things about france is they realise horse is for food not as a pet.


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## scampa (Jul 8, 2013)

But my comment was perfectly valid; a quarter of those motorcyclists were killed by colliding with stationary objects. This should say something about their abilities to ride safely, which includes anticipating road conditions and the many other hazards to be encountered on the roads.

As I said previously (on another thread) I'm not "anti" motorcyclists, or any other group of road user, but so long as one group continues to concentrate on putting the blame on other groups, things will not improve for anyone. It would be much more productive if any particular group acknowledged their "weaker" members, and encouraged them to be more sensible. ("Sensible" doesn't have to mean "boring" or "slow", but could simply be a case of learning better driving/riding techniques).

BTW, thinking back, I've suffered more serious injuries by falling off horses than I have by falling off my motorbikes. Maybe I should "change sides" in that debate?!!


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## scampa (Jul 8, 2013)

vwalan said:


> i,m lucky my neighbour brings me lots of fresh fish as he works at sea on a mussel farm .but shame he cant bring me nice horse steaks . mind that david could bring me some next time he pops over from france .thats one of the nice things about france is they realise horse is for food not as a pet.



Surely you wouldn't eat just any old French nag? I would insist on a British Thoroughbred myself!

And would you class racehorses as "fast-food"?


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## vwalan (Jul 8, 2013)

i would eat a british nag . but as we dont its not available . have #eat it though i used to work in a slaughter house .we didnt kill horses but the knackers yard up the road did . 
often buy it when in france its nice .eat camel when in maroc .

there they hang the head of what ever meat they are selling . good innit.


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## Fazerloz (Jul 8, 2013)

vwalan said:


> i would eat a british nag . but as we dont its not available . have #eat it though i used to work in a slaughter house .we didnt kill horses but the knackers yard up the road did .
> often buy it when in france its nice .eat camel when in maroc .View attachment 15394View attachment 15395
> there they hang the head of what ever meat they are selling . good innit.



At least their you will know whats in your lasagna not like here.  :tongue::scared:


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## mark61 (Jul 9, 2013)

Why is that?


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## Smaug (Jul 9, 2013)

What an odd perception. Were you just trying to generate discussion, or do you really believe what you wrote is the only way to behave? 

As you said, there are some benefits to going bow first into a supermarket slot - in a car the boot is easily accessible for loading the shopping, but the big problem is reversing out into passing vehicles that are focussed on an empty slot down the way. The reversing driver does not have a clear view of what is coming. That is why the Highway Code (remember that?) says you should not reverse out of a minor road onto a major one. I accept that the speed differentials are not so great, but the principals about visibility & safety remain.

TBH it is only one extra manoeuvre to reverse in at most, because it is often impossible to get into a space on a single lock due to the narrow lanes & slots, so you get double shuffles anyway. Most people decide as they see fit at the time, that seems reasonable to me.


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

some have problems . the minority see the problem from afar and either bypass the problem or work round it . the majority hit it straight on .then try and solve it .avoidance is far easier .


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## geebus (Jul 9, 2013)

Do some 'advanced riding' training, or get a book etc.
A lot of it deals with this exact topic - how to make sure other people's incompetence isn't your problem.
Sure, you might not be able to tell if someone will do something stupid, but the idea is that you've already planned to avoid them if they do.

Also, if there's limited space, it's often easier to manoeuvre a car into a parking space backwards - thus fork lifts and the like are generally rear-wheel steering.


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## mark61 (Jul 9, 2013)

A link supporting this statement please.

I am happy to park either way, but there are only very few situations where I will choose to drive in. My preference is to reverse in, for many reasons.


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

we arent in the usa anyway . plus we dont have to follow them . as a truck driver i say if you cant reverse in somewhere then dont drive in . its usually harder to reverse out than drive in . others vehicles etc get in the way. plus you almost always have to reverse onto a loading bay . not always though with curtain sides and slide sides it is changing .have been to drive through loading bays .


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## edina (Jul 9, 2013)

Similar to the drivers who happen to notice they are doing well over the speed limit; poor concentration is another major factor.


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

hi david . you know i dont pick on you .hee hee its them workers they need a bit of help sometimes . 
you know me i wouldnt want to be awkward would i .ha ha . 
by the way i,m antaganostic . or didnt you know .
i drive my truck to the super market . i dont have a car . 
fits lovely in a disabled space . mind my m,bike does as well that causes alot of comments from mentally disabled other drivers .


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## scampa (Jul 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## runnach (Jul 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## scampa (Jul 9, 2013)

channa said:


> Interestingly, I worked for a company that when you visited their head office gin palace, Policy was to reverse into a space in the car park.
> 
> Apparently and it is hard to verify but it was all to do with elf and Safety.
> *
> ...



I agree completely Channa, and those are the points that I've been trying to get across.


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

mind you do get drive in movies and drive in fast food . look silly reversing into them now wouldnt you .ha ha . 
you want to see the reverse on ferries going to maroc .
 icecream box drivers do let the side down .


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## Smaug (Jul 9, 2013)

I have a small trailer that I use from time to time. 

It has a short wheelbase & is utterly below my field of vision in the mirror. That is an utter nightmare to reverse with. Even when loaded & visible in the mirror, the short wheel base makes it very hard to match the turning circle of the car to that of the trailer. Big trailers, boats & the caravan are a doddle, but this little 6x4 trailer always takes a couple (or five) goes to get it right.

I try to avoid reversing with that on the back! :scared:


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

think you need to get a proper trailer .ha ha .
but yes short tow unit long trailer ideally wheels right at the back is far easier than a little trailer behind a large vehicle . 
mini artic is the way . some lead the rest follow.


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## maingate (Jul 9, 2013)

Try reversing a two axle trailer. :scared:  It's a whole different ballgame. :lol-049:


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## Smaug (Jul 9, 2013)

I used that trick with a caravan once. Coming down a steep hill at Symonds Yat I found that the site entrance was angled for an up hill approach DOH! 

I disconnected the van & turned the car, then put a brick under one wheel & released the van brake slowly so that it pivoted round the brick. Then brake back on hard & reverse car on to caravan. It was the easy to drive up the curved entrance ramp & park at the top of the field for a safe & easy escape later if it rained. 

When I reread the site blurb later it said "access not suitable for caravans & trailer tents". :lol-053:

There's always a way to solve any problem if you take your time & give it a bit of careful thought.


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

twin axle drag trailers behind a rigid . they have a turntable on the front axle of trailer . i drove milk tankers .they are a nightmare .but you do learn it . very maneuverable when you do but nightmare learning it .specially after a 40ft artic .


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## n brown (Jul 9, 2013)

when reversing small trailers gaffer tape a stick to each side with a bit of cloth hanging off so you can see what it's up to


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## Smaug (Jul 9, 2013)

Ha ha, it's all right, Winnie, we all understand that *you *are the only poster that can have an opinion which is the only "true & correct" one. :lol-053:


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## n brown (Jul 9, 2013)

vwalan said:


> twin axle drag trailers behind a rigid . they have a turntable on the front axle of trailer . i drove milk tankers .they are a nightmare .but you do learn it . very maneuverable when you do but nightmare learning it .specially after a 40ft artic .


  did you mean this sort of thing? looks pretty easy to me -well he makes it look easy ! Superb Skills - Log Truck 360 Turn Around Above Dangerous Cliff Edge - YouTube


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## mark61 (Jul 9, 2013)

vwalan said:


> twin axle drag trailers behind a rigid . they have a turntable on the front axle of trailer . i drove milk tankers .they are a nightmare .but you do learn it . very maneuverable when you do but nightmare learning it .specially after a 40ft artic .




Used to tow a turntable drawbar or steering axle drawbar a lot. Fantastic when you get the knack.


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## scampa (Jul 9, 2013)

I never said that you would "waste your time" by trawling through my past posts. On the contrary, you would find them interesting, amusing and educational!


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

hi nb thats the ones . 
mind i can spin mine on a normal two lane road .scrubs the tyres you would think they are about to pop off their rims . but it works . 
my unit is a registered motor tractor so it can pull tow trailers but as yet i havent . but could be fun . 
it is legal in uk for a motor tractor to pull two trailers and a locomotive can pull three trailers . not smart in cornwall ,wales etc .ha ha .


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## n brown (Jul 9, 2013)

I met a girl once had a big Volvo and pulled 2 showman's waggons,some outfit to overtake eh?


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

all good fun . 
i must say there are some great women drivers out there . these days i see lots of young french girls are taking hgv test so they can have big truck campers . get more and more of them every winter and they are girly girls not butch ones . you may have seen a few of them .


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## n brown (Jul 9, 2013)

I love it, when my daughter drove her single decker across spain,years ago,it was such a big deal that the Spanish truck drivers were CBing ahead and all coming out the bars to cheer her on as she passed !


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## vwalan (Jul 9, 2013)

back to that changing world . 
we have several lady truck drivers around here ,but the amount of french in winter in spain/maroc is amazing .girl truckerss not the actual french theres always loads of them .france must be empty in winter. ha ha .


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## sean rua (Jul 9, 2013)

What an intriguing and confusing thread!
Thank you all, but I must admit that I'm left with more questions than answers. 

First, here's my guess at an answer:
Smaug and wills asked why do these threads usually degenerate into a bit of a pantomime. My guess is that folk love a bit of CONFLICT. 'Tis probably on the first page of the script-writer's handbook, imo: generate conflict.

Now for a few genuine questions. I tend to learn a lot by asking folk who know their subjects. I do this because I found it a good way to find out things, so

For David:

a) Which states in the USA follow the laws you mentioned, please? Just that I never saw it anywhere I went.

b) Regarding the clever logic while driving that you tell us you have and use,  but that many apparently lack: 
may I ask if this was "figured out" by you good self following "trial and error", or does it result from your having had good lessons, please?

Finally for tonight, I'll just mention that we were taught to " always leave the horse looking for home". I think this was to facilitate a speedy getaway, but because rope is fairly flexible a horse can be quickly pointed left or right with equal ease, imo.
There again, a horse has to be "reversed" between the shafts of a cart, so I'm not sure where that leaves us. 
 I had thought that this sort of preparedness for the off when parking up was listed in the manual for "wildcampers" too, but perhaps I'm confusing them with "stealth-mode" campers? I'm not sure.

Happy manoeuvres, everybody!

sean rua.


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## geebus (Jul 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## maingate (Jul 9, 2013)

On the subject of Fork Lift trucks, they often have to be driven in reverse as much as forwards. It is the rule when the load obscures the view. The driver has to be skilful to drive backwards (with rear wheel steer) and also avoid his load hitting any objects, often in very tight situations.

maingate - Fork Lift licence holder. :drive:


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## Sky (Jul 9, 2013)

Well I normally just read these type of debates (arguments) with quiet amusement and never really want to take sides, but this one I simply have to comment on.

There is no argument that 80% of drivers drive into parking spaces, but that's only because 80% of drivers can't reverse properly.  However, you can't blame people for that - it's the system.  People, like water will take the path of least resistance and 'go with the flow' because they're 'programmed' into believing it's easier.

I am nearly always impressed when I see someone reversing into a parking space.  Occasionally, someone screws it up and needs a quick adjustment to get it straight, but mostly they don't.  On the other hand the majority of people that drive in have to shuffle backwards and forwards before they get it straight because the geometry is all wrong.

Reversing out into the flow of traffic whether it's shopping trolleys, people or vehicles is and has been proved dangerous time and again.  

From the Bristol IAM website:

When Driving Backwards Is Best - Bristol Advanced Motorists


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## and123wills (Jul 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## sean rua (Jul 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

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## mark61 (Jul 10, 2013)

I haven't been rude at all, I'm not the one calling others a fool or a buffoon simply because they choose to park in a different way to me.

I asked you to clarify your original statement regarding reverse parking, you have done that. I disagree. 

I asked you for a link to back up your statement that reverse parking is illegal in many places in the US, you were unable to do so.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jul 10, 2013)

Hi David not contributed to this thread as yet but reading the posts i can see your point of view on this, it does not mean i agree with all you say but you will already know that, and don't worry as a dyslexic person myself and for the record not that many people know about it spell checker etc has helped over the years, my own family are not even aware of it it was only recently that a teacher i know kind of diagnosed it for me through a series of test not that it bothers or affected me in any way after all its just a label with little meaning me in day to day life. I def love open debate and don't wont be treated with kid gloves and thankfully i don't and would never work for the public sector. I feel so much more at home in the Voluntary and Community Sector, and i mean the voluntary sector not the government subside version of it.

My grammar errors are more to do with my laziness on the keyboard more than anything else lol

Keep your posts coming David i do enjoy your train of thought on things

Regards lee


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## n brown (Jul 10, 2013)

I must be at least part buffoon as I prefer to  reverse into spaces unless i'm getting more than a couple of bags.   the reason for this is clear to me,firstly i'm very good at reversing,often causing spontaneous applause from onlookers,but mainly because there is a breed of small old ladies who instinctively know where your blind spot is,and get into it just as you decide it's clear to pull out.that's when they pop into view, giving you a fright.they don't look your way,pretending they haven't noticed their narrow escape. so i'll carry on with my wrong way


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

SOME of the reasons why I generally reverse in are:

As N.Brown says, the blind spots that you have if you have to reverse out with cars parked on either side of you; apart from the little old ladies, stray shopping trolleys, and the odd passing car that isn't paying attention, young children may be running, playing, or even just walking where you can't see them. (yes, they should be supervised, but they often aren't). You don't have blind spots as you reverse in, because the whole of your manoeuvring area should be in clear view. When you drive out forwards you have greater visibility of this "danger area", which makes it safer.

Thinking ahead, you'll know that conditions may have changed when you come back to your car; other cars may have arrived and parked awkwardly, restricting the available space or angles in which you can manoeuvre easily and safely. Weather conditions may have changed, and your screens may be misted or even frozen up, or there could be a torrential downpour, reducing visibility. (Not all drivers allow time for clearing their screens, so may be tempted to move off without good all-round vision). In poor weather, pedestrians may be more focused on rushing back to their cars, or to shelter, than on taking notice of your car's movements. All of these circumstances would make it much easier and safer to drive out forwards, rather than reverse out of the space.

If you are in a hurry, or need to make a quick getaway, it is much more straightforward to drive out forwards quickly and easily, and you are less likely to make mistakes or have a collision than if you reversed out in a hurry.

In general, because of it's front-wheel steering, it's easier for a competent driver to park a car correctly by reversing into any confined space.

Many drivers who drive forwards into a parking space seem to just "abandon" their car, roughly within the parking space (no names mentioned!), with little or no thought about possible changed conditions or circumstances when they come back to it.

PS. I never have trouble with loading my shopping into the boot/hatch, even if backed near to a wall. I just "park" the shopping trolley at the side or front of my car, and transfer the shopping in from the side.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jul 10, 2013)

scampa said:


> SOME of the reasons why I generally reverse in are:
> 
> As N.Brown says, the blind spots that you have if you have to reverse out with cars parked on either side of you; apart from the little old ladies, stray shopping trolleys, and the odd passing car that isn't paying attention, young children may be running, playing, or even just walking where you can't see them. (yes, they should be supervised, but they often aren't). You don't have blind spots as you reverse in, because the whole of your manoeuvring area should be in clear view. When you drive out forwards you have greater visibility of this "danger area", which makes it safer.
> 
> ...



good points made here scampa


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## Smaug (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm sorry you feel "bullied" David, but perhaps you now know how many people feel on reading your scything attacks on their posts. You are getting back a little of what you so frequently choose to hand out, & it is not pleasant is it?

Please take that on board next time you feel a "smart put down" will make you look good, they don't they make you look aggressive. Then we can all be friends again.


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## maingate (Jul 10, 2013)

I drive in.

There is a good chance that the car in front of me will have gone when I come out and I can drive out.

No reversing required some of the time.

If you lot were as intelligent and as good a driver as me, you would have known that. 
I am very good looking as well. :rabbit:


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

maingate said:


> I drive in.
> 
> There is a good chance that the car in front of me will have gone when I come out and I can drive out.
> 
> ...



Yeah - yeah....

But in reality you just lean your carrier-bike against a lamp-post, don't you?!!


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## geebus (Jul 10, 2013)

Exactly what you did when you replied to my advanced riding point, I would suggest.


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

Surely to have experience of writing risk assessments, one would have to be qualified??


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## sean rua (Jul 10, 2013)

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## Smaug (Jul 10, 2013)

scampa said:


> Surely to have experience of writing risk assessments, one would have to be qualified??



No, that's not true at all. 

Health & safety legislation is written in such a way as to encourage applied common sense, you are simply required to show that you have considered the potential risks & taken reasonable actions in order to mitigate the worst of the potential consequences. Every manager & small business owner should be able to look at their work & workplace & identify probable risks in order to minimise them. There should be no need to buy in common sense, unless the boss is too busy to spend a bit of time considering safety . . .

Sadly there is an "industry" grown up with people using H&S excuses to save them having to offer a reasonable service to the public.


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

Smaug said:


> No, that's not true at all.
> 
> Health & safety legislation is written in such a way as to encourage applied common sense, you are simply required to show that you have considered the potential risks & taken reasonable actions in order to mitigate the worst of the potential consequences. Every manager & small business owner should be able to look at their work & workplace & identify probable risks in order to minimise them. There should be no need to buy in common sense, unless the boss is too busy to spend a bit of time considering safety . . .
> 
> Sadly there is an "industry" grown up with people using H&S excuses to save them having to offer a reasonable service to the public.



Are you sure that YOU don't have a fixation with Elf N Safety, Smaug??


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## Smaug (Jul 10, 2013)

scampa said:


> Are you sure that YOU don't have a fixation with Elf N Safety, Smaug??



I had to do H&S checks to satisfy the local Council when I was running a Bike Recycling project for them. Plus, as a Management Consultant & Trainer I often had to debunk some of the dafter myths. But by nature I am a risk taker, largely cos I am endemically lazy & generally can't be 'rsed, plus I grew up in the late 40's early 50's when, if you got hurt playing on a bomb site, yer dad would box yer ears as well for being naughty . . .


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## 666jw (Jul 10, 2013)

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## Smaug (Jul 10, 2013)

666jw said:


> Well Wintonion has really put the cat amongst the pigeons on this thread.  I constantly hear these names mentioned, Northerner and Alf Hucker ! Did they really exist ? And how long ago ? Fixation, obsessive perhaps
> Sir David eh ? I didn't even know he could play tennis



hello again . . .


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## 666jw (Jul 10, 2013)

Smaug said:


> hello again . . .



Hi there smaug :wave:


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## scampa (Jul 10, 2013)

[No message]


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## Smaug (Jul 10, 2013)

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## scampa (Jul 12, 2013)

And another thing!!!  This slipped my mind until I went to a supermarket today (for some shopping, not on a research trip! ). 

Many of the larger supermarket car parks have walkways along the rear of their parking spaces in order to keep the pedestrians away from the danger of moving vehicles. The shoppers are able to push their trolleys safely along these walkways and load their shopping into their cars.

However, it seems that the same high proportion of drivers STILL drive FORWARDS into the spaces as they do in other car parks, then, after shopping, push their trolleys along the sides of their cars to reach the boot! This means that you STILL have to navigate your car around these shoppers, their trolleys and their kids, as they load their shopping into their cars!! (And they STILL have to reverse out).

Obviously this blows those (already very feeble) comments about "driving in forwards to allow access to the car boot" completely out of the water, leaving the only possible reasons for driving in forwards as: a lack of forward thinking, poor theoretical knowledge, poor driving ability,  little thought to the safety of oneself or others, laziness, or simply follow-like-sheepiness!!


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## 666jw (Jul 12, 2013)

I think I might start shopping online, this is turning into a right kerfuffle Win and Scamp


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## Smaug (Jul 12, 2013)

C'mon, David, defend your point at all costs & completely regardless of facts or circumstances, you know it makes sense (err NOT) :lol-053:

Carrying an argument to absurdity just makes you look silly, you might have retained some credibility by accepting that specific case, but no you had to make nonsense up to justify your arbitrary initial stance. It just doesn't wash mate!


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## yorkieowl (Jul 12, 2013)

I remember now while I love this forum so much, it reminds me when the kids were little, and used to bicker all the time, and never agree to disagree, but just start name calling.  I'll do the same as I did then, and leave you to it!!!:idea-007:fftopic::dance:  have a nice day, the sun is still shining.


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## 666jw (Jul 12, 2013)

Is there no one safe ? Have to admit Win, you are a ballsy no nonsense individual. Unfortunatly certain 'ever presents ' just love to get their two penneth worth in, ( not you yorkie owl )usually before the intended person concerned even has had a chance to reply to your post. Would this forum be boring without you ? I think I can hear a majority verdict . Keep on posting , I'm sure the vast majority don't always agree with your rants, but they sure as ell look forward to them. :wave:


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## yorkieowl (Jul 12, 2013)

Ahh finally found something you don't know much about, far too hot to be doing my knitting!:lol-053: (notice you still had to fit a snide remark in).


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## 666jw (Jul 12, 2013)

It was said as a tongue in cheek phrase. Most are posts, some ARE rants. Anyway no need to nitpick ( no not you Yorkiowl  ) Bloody Ell Win, you even find fault with a post that congratulates you, ease up r kid, and lay off all that building work it appears to be the seventh bridge that farmhouse of yours. A G and T perhaps later ?


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## mark61 (Jul 12, 2013)

Rightly or wrongly that post bought me a huge smile. Shows good sense of humour and character. Nice!

Just shows you, even otherwise intelligent folk can still park the wrong way.


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## scampa (Jul 15, 2013)

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## scampa (Jul 18, 2013)

LOL, I pulled into a private car park a few days ago and saw this sign, so I HAD to take a pic!:




A quick search online shows that those nice people in Health & Safety are now considering "reverse-parking only" as a part of their risk-assessments, and often recommend implementing it in order to reduce collisions and increase pedestrian safety in car parks.

As is usual in these situations, I would imagine that most car park owners will now worry about NOT implementing a reverse-parking only policy, in order to reduce any likely litigation claims against them for any damage or injuries sustained on their property. Therefore I expect that it will become a common policy in most European car parks within a couple of years!  (And about time too, if you ask me!)


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## whitevanwoman (Jul 18, 2013)

But perhaps they know that they are not very good at reverse parking and so they are practising in a safe place off the public highway and are hoping for a little tolerance from other drivers for the few seconds that they are held up for. 

Or perhaps the vehicle is rear wheel drive.

And perhaps the vehicle is a Beetle which has the engine at the back.


See, there's always an unknown factor. And that's why assumption and presumption is dangerous. Judge if you will, but without knowing all the facts, you can't expect other people to respect your judgement. 

And you know that I have no gripe at you, no axe to grind, and that I do quite often agree with some of your points, but (and I haven't yet finished reading the thread) I do think that you've been a tad harsh and presumptive and I think it's time for you to have another G&T and just let your heart rate settle a bit (I'm sooooooooo tempted to tell you to take a chill pill but I know that would generate a torrent about standards of written english these days)


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## vwalan (Jul 18, 2013)

hi david also others have boot at front type 3 type4  nsu, skodas fiats porsche hillman imps .do i need to go on .all good vehicles and won lots of races . i,m sure there are loads more come on anyone think of some more .


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## mark61 (Jul 18, 2013)

vwalan said:


> hi david also others have boot at front type 3 type4  nsu, skodas fiats porsche hillman imps .do i need to go on .all good vehicles and won lots of races . i,m sure there are loads more come on anyone think of some more .



The mighty Tatra's, don't see many of them though.


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## vwalan (Jul 18, 2013)

there is still loads around here . we aint posh like you rich bugg--s. beetles fetch good money now. and hillman imps are sought by the trials boys and girls . 
think i would sooner have a beetle than an escort ot a modern car . 
.
plus they make grand trikes as well. be ok for you when your that dodery you cant ride a motor bike .


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## mark61 (Jul 18, 2013)

A few little Fiats, 500, 126. Not many of those either. lol


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## scampa (Jul 19, 2013)

scampa said:


> LOL, I pulled into a private car park a few days ago and saw this sign, so I HAD to take a pic!:
> 
> View attachment 15567
> 
> ...snip





According to the reports from companies who have implemented the reverse-only parking policy, the employees actually get to work EARLIER than usual, to allow more time for the poorer drivers to park correctly. They also report that after the first few weeks, the use of the car parks become much more efficient and orderly than before, at both arrival and departure time for the employees. 

Overall, reverse-only parking has proved to be a major step forward!!


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## scampa (Jul 21, 2013)

[No message]


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## Smaug (Jul 21, 2013)

He ain't going to cough for it tho, is he? Do you think he genuinely doesn't know he's doing it?


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## scampa (Jul 21, 2013)

LOL

Sorry Winty, but I'm afraid you'll have to play your little game with someone else now!!


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## 666jw (Jul 22, 2013)

Hi there Scampa, I'm  sorry that you feel the way you do. You come across as a pleasant enough individual, :wave:

I also personally feel it takes a lot of bottle and soul searching to put such an explosive post on this forum, as it always invites strong  criticism from other members. I myself have fallen foul of Wintonion on occasion along with many others such as 123wills ( nice guy) etc. 
I believe that Wins behaviour is intentional but not vindictive, just his way of trying to put his point over, debate, win , succeed call it what you want. On occasion it causes offence similar to Derek flip flap ,Sean Rua etc. Do we really want the same safe comments,along with people reading but not posting . The forum really does get boring without these posters, who all CAN and Do get it back when the situation arises.
In my opinion , the problem posters on here are the ones that are never off air. The ones who don't just know every thing about every subject, but comment on every thing before the original poster has chance to reply . They  throw the inevitable slang into their posts to " appear streetwise" , always using phrases that are far to advanced for a older generation to use which makes them look like the embarrassing uncle or grandparent or worse still a wideboy ( not) .
Come on folks and not forgetting your good self Scampa,  we have to take this behaviour with a pinch of salt, as they are all being naughty schoolboys , and are no different than the usual suspects on here that gang up and then hide behind a cloak of respectability along with lots of " likes" for each other in the clic. Hang on in there big Win and come back Derek ( Sean's only on holiday ) .All very different animals who don't side with each other, but aren't afraid to air their views or hold back. Yes Scampa you have hit the nail on the head though, wouldn't it be nice for them to backtrack, change stance or apologise now and again. It would make your well said and thought out post,  unnecessary, kind regards jw


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## maingate (Jul 22, 2013)

I am a regular poster on here and take offence at your comment about the regular 'knowitalls'. I have no idea what you mean by putting the inevitable slang words into postings.

Why don't members with let's say over 2,000 posts just stay away from the forum for a month. That way we can see if you are right. I for one will resign from the forum if the membership believes it has improved as a result.

I don't use any other internet sites (like FB or Twitter). I like a bit of banter and help where I have some knowledge. maybe it's time I found a new outlet for my spare time. Anybody need any gardening done?


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## n brown (Jul 22, 2013)

maingate said:


> I am a regular poster on here and take offence at your comment about the regular 'knowitalls'. I have no idea what you mean by putting the inevitable slang words into postings.
> 
> Why don't members with let's say over 2,000 posts just stay away from the forum for a month. That way we can see if you are right. I for one will resign from the forum if the membership believes it has improved as a result.
> 
> I don't use any other internet sites (like FB or Twitter). I like a bit of banter and help where I have some knowledge. maybe it's time I found a new outlet for my spare time. Anybody need any gardening done?


now don't just jump in and knock it--have you tried crochet ? great for the blood pressure and you get a lovely winter blanket -bonus !


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## 666jw (Jul 22, 2013)

maingate said:


> I am a regular poster on here and take offence at your comment about the regular 'knowitalls'. I have no idea what you mean by putting the inevitable slang words into postings.
> 
> Why don't members with let's say over 2,000 posts just stay away from the forum for a month. That way we can see if you are right. I for one will resign from the forum if the membership believes it has improved as a result.
> 
> I don't use any other internet sites (like FB or Twitter). I like a bit of banter and help where I have some knowledge. maybe it's time I found a new outlet for my spare time. Anybody need any gardening done?



So sorry maingate, your name didn't enter my head. You've got the wrong end of the stick. I didn't mean posters of many posts over many moons, the reference was made in relation to many posts on the same hour re all subjects  in succession before the poster has been even given a chance to get a reply from the person he may have directed it at. Please accept my apology ( I am big enough to say that  ) 

Ps I like many others on here are also not on Facebook twitter or any other forums


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## Smaug (Jul 22, 2013)

Yes please, Dave, 

I have a 1/4 acre of weeds going to seed & hay that needs a good seeing to, plus a couple of trees that need logging. 

Oh, and here's a "trendy comment" from grumpy Grandad

 Some people really don't like getting it back do they?


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## 666jw (Jul 22, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Yes please, Dave,
> 
> I have a 1/4 acre of weeds going to seed & hay that needs a good seeing to, plus a couple of trees that need logging.
> 
> ...



And there lies my point  Mr Maingate , less than 180 seconds later , hardly time for you to read my apology, and santa' s  found the time to come off a different thread , read it and reply and post . I know he's your mate , but for god sake can't he wind his neck in now and again. smaug , Flip flap is there such a big difference in real terms. ?? :lol-053:

Ps. Isn't this banter ? Or is is offensive only when its not from a recognised clic member !


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## maingate (Jul 22, 2013)

666jw said:


> And there lies my point  Mr Maingate , less than 180 seconds later , hardly time for you to read my apology, and santa' s  found the time to come off a different thread , read it and reply and post . I know he's your mate , but for god sake can't he wind his neck in now and again. smaug , Flip flap is there such a big difference in real terms. ?? :lol-053:
> 
> Ps. Isn't this banter ? Or is is offensive only when its not from a recognised clic member !



Don't worry. The only thing I found offensive about the post is that my name is not Dave. :lol-049:

ps, is £20 an hour OK Smaug?


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## Monkey (Jul 22, 2013)

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## Smaug (Jul 22, 2013)

maingate said:


> Don't worry. The only thing I found offensive about the post is that my name is not Dave. :lol-049:
> 
> ps, is £20 an hour OK Smaug?



Excellent, I shall send you my bank details so you can start paying immediately, after all you may well need the exercise. You may even keep half of what you grow as a thank you.


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## Smaug (Jul 22, 2013)

Well that's a pretty comprehensive example of a nasty & derogatory post, which I am sure you will now try to represent as defensive. As Ghandi said, "violence simply begets more violence". Maybe you need to learn to turn the other cheek first?


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## 666jw (Jul 22, 2013)

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## sparrks (Jul 22, 2013)

With reference to reverse parking a lot of companies have made that their policy, I worked for one such company 12 years ago and we were warned to expect a disciplinary if we ignored this policy. This was rather amusing as we had rear loading vans and had to stop about four feet short of the end of the parking bay to load and offload materials, which we then ran the risk of damaging the sides of the vehicles as we squeezed pass - easier for some than others. :raofl:

In general reverse parking into spaces is a good idea, but a big no no at supermarkets unless it's easy to access the rear of the vehicle. 

Drivers should give way to people reversing out of parking bays rather than a blast on the horn.


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