# Fuel Cell or Generator?



## Viktor (Jan 17, 2012)

The question may have popped up before, but is it simply a matter of space and money to go for a fuel cell?  I've noticed the 'Comfort' advertised and I've noticed other smaller types than run on LPG supposedly for camping....how many use these on the forum and has everyone mostly the methanol powered one that uses them...are these standard fit to most larger motorhomes?

I like the idea of the small military version (methanol) which doesn't look as if it's available to the general public but as is I don't have the space available to install something the size of the 'Comfort' or the seemingly necessary 2 x leisure batteries recommended and a big 2000w inverter lol...so are the LPG cells basically a small generator or are they silent like their big brothers?  Anyone got one of either?


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2012)

You shouldn't run a 2000w inverter off two leisure batteries. Four or even six/eight batteries are recommended for that size of inverter due to the current draw and also usable running time at that wattage. It is more for a marine or large RV type set up.

I have an EU10i Honda generator, but with solar panels, it's for emergency use only.


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## Admin (Jan 17, 2012)

The eu10i is a super generator for motorhomes, its very quiet and revs as more energy is required. you can also get LPG conversions for them.
You just have to be aware of its output power. Many people think having a little generator means they can run microwaves, hair dryers, electric heaters and other high load items. The truth is you maybe able to use a special low wattage version, but only one item at a time. (but you can run lots of low wattage items.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jan 17, 2012)

Firefox said:


> You shouldn't run a 2000w inverter off two leisure batteries. Four or even six/eight batteries are recommended for that size of inverter due to the current draw and also usable running time at that wattage. It is more for a marine or large RV type set up.
> 
> I have an EU10i Honda generator, but with solar panels, it's for emergency use only.



thanks for posting that firefox ,while i only have a 1000 modifierd inverster coneected to two 110 amo leisure batteries i noticed the alarm and them shut down seem to kick in sooner thnan i thought running basic stuff mike oawer my laptp t,v etc. on the specs of my nverter it says 10.5 v for the alarm to trigger and 10.0 for shutdown, i think next time it happens i will put a volt meter on and see if that soec is correct. what do you surgest firefox. should i connect 2 more 110 batteries same tyoe make model to make it last longer or get another two batteries and another inverster and have one for t.v etc and the other for lasptop etc.? also my inverster has two plugs and i connect a extension lead to it, do you know if the lead is drawing power to making the battery drain quicker.?


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## Admin (Jan 17, 2012)

An important thing is to make sure the batteries get as much charge in them as possible, split charge relays generally dont do that.


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## Viktor (Jan 17, 2012)

I actually have a LPG converted Honda 2.0i which I bought on eBay with the assistance of a member of this forum in getting it to me. Interestingly I got the tubing changed in Crewe by the main dealer to the UK who told me there was petrol in it and drained everything to enable it to start quickly and just run on LPG....it's not too noisy on tickover, but IS noisy once the power kicks in....certainly loud enough that if you ran it for long I could understand the complaining of the noise.

I'd hate to be on a site closely packed with everyone using a generator....I can quite understand the dislike of them.

I asked the question because a small cell (if one was available) running on a perhaps 2 litres of methanol might be a better option than fitting solar panels or even investing in a wind turbine for the smaller campervans....no good to me though unfortunately....

I wonder how long it will be before a small one virtually replaces your car or leisure batteries....it must be under development.


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2012)

To Landyrubbertramp

I run also run a 1000W inverter off 2 number 110Ah batteries. 4 batteries are recommended for the 1000W inverter but in practice I only run very low wattage appliances off the inverter, like fancy lights, laptop, chargers etc etc.

I only have a bigger inverter so I can run stuff like electric drills and hoovers off it occasionally. These items are low-time items. But if I run say a 700w fan heater or electric oven the inverter will alarm and shut down due to low supply voltage in 15-25 minutes so those items are not for practical usage.

I get plenty of usage for my low power inverter items (lights/laptop) off my 2 x110 batteries - maybe 20-24 hours worth, enough for 3-4 days wilding, so your figures suggest your batteries are less than 100%. Maybe getting towards the end of their lives. I had this problem recently. I was down to a few hours usage even on full charge so I replaced the batteries and am back up to full capacity. Except, I now only use LED lights 3W when wilding so it's only lap top and chargers run off the inverter. Your extension lead won't make any difference.


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2012)

EU10i is noisier than you think when you stand right next to it, but the figure of 52 dBA is quoted at 7m and when you do stand 7m away it goes down to quiet conversation level. If you were inside another van at 7m, I doubt you would hear it at all; it certainly wouldn't be antisocial to run it.


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## Viktor (Jan 17, 2012)

All I can say to the noise levels was it was similar to a small childs motorbike on tickover and sounded like a heavy rotary lawnmover being reved up when the load kicked in.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jan 17, 2012)

Firefox said:


> You shouldn't run a 2000w inverter off two leisure batteries. Four or even six/eight batteries are recommended for that size of inverter due to the current draw and also usable running time at that wattage. It is more for a marine or large RV type set up.
> 
> I have an EU10i Honda generator, but with solar panels, it's for emergency use only.





Firefox said:


> To Landyrubbertramp
> 
> I run also run a 1000W inverter off 2 number 110Ah batteries. 4 batteries are recommended for the 1000W inverter but in practice I only run very low wattage appliances off the inverter, like fancy lights, laptop, chargers etc etc.
> 
> ...



To Firefox
Thanks for getting back to me on this, my batteries are only a few months old and i make sure they are fully charged too. but i think things like my t.v which is just anormal 240 prtable and then the free view box etc are taking up too much power. i dont have a spiit relay charger as im only out a few days at a time , i just recharge them with a battery charger when i get home. Thanks for the info about the extension lead as i thought i could be down to that. Just a quick question would be ok to just conecet my leisure batteries staright to the landrover vehucle batterty and just put a inline fuse and then just remeber to disconnect when i stop so i dont drain my vehicle battery as im using a diffrent venhicle at the mo for a few months why my landrover 110 is having its mot work done. This to save having a split relay installed??


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## Viktor (Jan 17, 2012)

***** said:


> Incidentally, the problem with having the geny running on gas is that if you use it through a gas fitting on the side of your van, the the  geny is too near.



Yes agreed that is a consideration as the hose does clip into the BBQ point and the genny is sitting right beside the towbar.


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2012)

To Landyrubbertramp

Yes. I don't have a charge relay on mine. I just connect the batteries direct via a switch. I've got a 100A 10mm2 cable, 100A fuse and 45A trip switch.

It's a more reliable method than a charge relay (less to go wrong mechanically/electrically). The only problem is if you forget to put the charge on when you drive, or forget to put it off when you park.

I overcome the second by turning the electrics off with another switch ie always flip the two switches together. So if I park up and have forgotten to isolate the leisure battery, my electrics don't work and that reminds me to flip the switches. In the first case, if you forget to put it on charge, you are no worse off than if you didn't have a charge cable. In practice I never forget to put it on charge, when I need to either.

There may be a difference in our TV and lap top set ups. My TV is a small screen LCD 20w and my lap top is 40w as I remember, so quite low power draws.


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## landyrubbertramp (Jan 17, 2012)

I overcome the second by turning the electrics off with another switch ie always flip the two switches together. So if I park up and have forgotten to isolate the leisure battery, my electrics don't work and that reminds me to flip the switches. In the first case, if you forget to put it on charge, you are no worse off than if you didn't have a charge cable. In practice I never forget to put it on charge, when I need to either.


Hi Firefox thanks again. thats very clever thinking with the switch. Ive just realised ive been watching your youtube clips for a few months now, they are a credit to you, well done. I had a hi cube transit in the summer of 2010, but with me being 6ft i could sleep along the with of the van as the van narrows alot as it gets higher, it was a shame that. the other problem was you could not park it in car park bays etc which ment i ended up with 2 vehicles. i think the ameduim wheel base high roof is a good middle ground option good choice.


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## Firefox (Jan 17, 2012)

landyrubbertramp said:


> the other problem was you could not park it in car park bays etc which ment i ended up with 2 vehicles. i think the ameduim wheel base high roof is a good middle ground option good choice.



Yes 3.5m wheelbase just squeezes in a parking bay. In all honesty I could have coped with a 5.7m van but they don't do one in that make and that length.

Then I would have had had 0.3m extra for a wardrobe on one side and improve the kitchen with an oven on the other. As it stands the only hanging space I have is in the shower room, and the only oven I have, a small electric grill oven, or a dutch oven on the gas rings.

Back on topic to fuel cells, I don't believe current technology is of much use for motorhomes. They are either too expensive, low power for size, run too hot for a van, or too sensitive to stuff like CO2 in the intake and therefore can only be used in space. 

Batteries and generators are mass produced and therefore cheap. Maybe in 5, 10, or 20 years time fuel cells will be worth another look.


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## Mastodon (Jan 17, 2012)

Every time I hear the words 'fuel cell'  I think 'Apollo 13'
... but don't let that put you off...


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## Viktor (Jan 17, 2012)

What about this for the smaller campervanner who might be doing a self low cost conversion and perhaps didn't want to have to try installing a leisure battery?

UPS Systems, Hymera Fuel Cell Generator - YouTube


Unfortunately it isn't exactly cheap - BOC Hymera 150W Hydrogen Fuel Cell* £2,394.00*



Output power (Continous):
150W
Output power (Peak):
200W
Output 1 type:
13A socket
Output 1 power:
230VAC
Output 2 type:
Cigar socket
Output 2 power:
12/14VDC
Output 3 type:
Anderson socket
Output 3 power:
12/14VDC
Weight:
7kg
Height:
278mm
Width:
188mm
Length:
433mm
Noise level at 7m:
25dB(A)
Operating temperature
0°C to 35°C


...so much for the low cost conversion lol!


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## Firefox (Jan 18, 2012)

That proves the point.

Temp OK, noise OK, input gases OK, weight OK, power output per size poor, cost prohibitive.

You'd be better off with a bank of a couple of lead acid batteries and good solar set up. Could even buy an EU10i as well and you'd still be £1000 better off.

Bring the fuel cell price down to £200 similar to the batteries cost and we'd all be thinking of the possibilities.


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## Billy Ruffian (Jan 18, 2012)

I use both sizes of the Honda when the power goes off at my office and they are immediately outside the door.      We put a large cardboard box (open at one end) over them to keep the rain off but it also dampens the noise.    Not very practical in a motorhome though...


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