# Cal Mac to increase prices for motorhomes by 50-70%



## barryd (Dec 17, 2021)

Looks like the days of the RET (Road Equivalent Tariff) discount for motorhomes is ending next year.









						CalMac motorhome drivers face 70 per cent ferry fare hike as loophole closed
					

FARES for motorhomes are set to soar on CalMac ferries after demands from angry locals to end the loophole that saw the vehicles get heavily…




					www.heraldscotland.com
				




This might not be popular but could it possibly mean that things may improve for us?  A lot of islands have started putting in restrictions. Its one reason we gave Mull a swerve this summer as they pretty much banned wilding.  I guess something had to give.


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## Costers (Dec 17, 2021)

Their loss in the long run especially if they think reductions in delivery costs will be passed on to the consumer. Barra coop will still only get a Wednesday delivery.


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## Fisherman (Dec 17, 2021)

Honestly I have never seen more than four motorhomes on a crossing to Arran, sometimes as on our last trip we are alone. The ferry’s take up to 88 cars and commercial vehicles motorhomes making around 3-4% of the total in summer, and less in winter. Let’s see what unfolds but I fail to see how charging motorhomes more will reduce shop prices.
Bottom line this won’t stop us travelling to the islands.
I don’t think increasing the ferry fare to Arran by £15-20 return will prevent many from travelling, so if this move is to help lower numbers I doubt if this will achieve that end.


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## Minisorella (Dec 17, 2021)

“In response to community feedback, the fares for motorhomes are being increased to begin to address the disparity with fares for commercial vehicles of equivalent length.” 

Bit of compromise required I think. A key point here is the word 'commercial' and I don't see why there shouldn't be disparity. We're mostly just tourists, just like the ones who drive cars, who don't have a company behind us to pay the ferry bills and then pass the cost down the line to their customers. A size-based set of prices for private vehicles and another for commericial vehicles would be a fairer system rather than just size alone.


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## Harryw (Dec 17, 2021)

Agree I don’t understand what’s difficult in setting private and commercial tariffs.  
I’m presuming this is all calmac crossings. If islanders want more than perhaps a book of say 12 discount vouchers be given to them to avoid paying the normal private rate us occasional travellers will incur.


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## Fisherman (Dec 18, 2021)

Many islanders own motorhomes, I wonder how they feel about those amongst them who wish them to pay more.
Bottom line currently the Arran return fare for a 6m van is £49, £33 of which is for the van, the rest for driver and passenger. Even a 70% rise only amounts to £21, hardly enough to deter most from crossing. In 2004 I paid £136 return for my car.
I fail to see what is being achieved here.
Also I wonder how the caravan site owners will react to this.
But if you want to read a totally biased report, quoting that we are saving £25 million a year, try this. The total budget for RTE is £25million.






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## mikeg40 (Dec 18, 2021)

it has become an issue in peak season and the subsidies are in place for the benefit of islanders. maybe some more off peak deals for those of us that like to travel outwith midge season


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## Fisherman (Dec 18, 2021)

mikeg40 said:


> it has become an issue in peak season and the subsidies are in place for the benefit of islanders. maybe some more off peak deals for those of us that like to travel outwith midge season


Sorry but I have to take issue with your post.
First the subsides are in place for everyone who lives and travels to the islands. But the lions share of the £25million costs involved are not met by the 90,000 islanders, but by Scot’s who live on the mainland. But as it’s likely that those living on the islands will use the service more often, it’s the islanders who benefit most from the subsidies.
 As I have stated previously we are a tiny minority of those who travel to the islands greatly outnumbered by cars. Anecdotally I would reckon we make up around 3-4% of all the vehicles carried by the ferries. So if there are issues at peak times controlling our numbers will make little difference. 
All we heard from the islanders in the past was how unfair the costs were before RTE was introduced, perhaps those who have seen fit to propose that we alone should pay more should remember how much they are saving, and how much they have benefitted rather than calling for us to pay more than any other visitors to their islands.


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## mikeg40 (Dec 18, 2021)

yes, we are a minority but also there is a minority of us who have abused island hospitality and this more than anything else leads to the feedback that caused it. we are an easily targeted group, visible and easy to identify with no lobby power so until we can coordinate our grievances we will continue to be targeted. my post was meant to be light hearted but it abviously touched a nerve. sorry. I have lived and worked on the islands before RTE and the costs of ferry vehicle transport were a very serious consideration to travelling to the mainland. I have enjoyed visiting friends more often over last few years but personally I will adapt to the new rules. We were lucky enough to enjoy the cheaper rates for some time but as I understand it under 6m is still the same price. unfortunately that means I and many others will have to pay the higher rate. The boom in campervans and staycations has resulted in many issues and I have found many of my favourite places are no longer as welcoming or even even available anymore. car camping and the general lack of facilities has left many areas difficult for motorhome owners and the differing approaches from councils has left me confused and a little disillusioned. the successes of camPra has proved we can make changes but with all the clubs and groups having differing approaches and aims we still have no real power or influence. as far as the source of the funding for RTE is concerned, the problems of who pays is always contentious and can be applied to everything from bus passes to rubbish collections.


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## Fisherman (Dec 18, 2021)

mikeg40 said:


> yes, we are a minority but also there is a minority of us who have abused island hospitality and this more than anything else leads to the feedback that caused it. we are an easily targeted group, visible and easy to identify with no lobby power so until we can coordinate our grievances we will continue to be targeted. my post was meant to be light hearted but it abviously touched a nerve. sorry. I have lived and worked on the islands before RTE and the costs of ferry vehicle transport were a very serious consideration to travelling to the mainland. I have enjoyed visiting friends more often over last few years but personally I will adapt to the new rules. We were lucky enough to enjoy the cheaper rates for some time but as I understand it under 6m is still the same price. unfortunately that means I and many others will have to pay the higher rate. The boom in campervans and staycations has resulted in many issues and I have found many of my favourite places are no longer as welcoming or even even available anymore. car camping and the general lack of facilities has left many areas difficult for motorhome owners and the differing approaches from councils has left me confused and a little disillusioned. the successes of camPra has proved we can make changes but with all the clubs and groups having differing approaches and aims we still have no real power or influence. as far as the source of the funding for RTE is concerned, the problems of who pays is always contentious and can be applied to everything from bus passes to rubbish collections.


No nerve was touched, I welcome debate.
I just reckon that we are being treated terribly here.


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## mikeg40 (Dec 18, 2021)

no worries, but as I said I would welcome out of season discounts as an alternative and until we have a viable lobby group with some influence we will always be easy targets


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## Fisherman (Dec 18, 2021)

mikeg40 said:


> no worries, but as I said I would welcome out of season discounts as an alternative and until we have a viable lobby group with some influence we will always be easy targets


Mike as I posted earlier, 18 years ago I paid £136 for my car return to Arran. This year I paid £49 return for my 6m Motorhome. I reckon it’s got to be one of the best deals out there. I don’t see much room for discounts.


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## alcam (Dec 18, 2021)

Keep intending to do an island trip so pleased to see us little chaps [under 6m] are still subsidised . Don't know facts and figures re locals not getting on ferries because of campervans ? Would assume tourist cars take up space too ?
Surely possible to prioritise locals and maybe offer some kind of off peak fares for us ? To be fair it is easier for us to be flexible with our travelling times than people going to work etc


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## barryd (Dec 18, 2021)

Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff.


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## colinm (Dec 18, 2021)

I must admit to not knowing the RET didn't apply to commercial vehicles, and it does seem slightly odd that a subsidy designed to keep down costs for those living on islands shouldn't apply, that aside, this is a tax payer funded subsidy, for it to be used to try and keep out certain classes of private vehicle seems a bit rich to me.
We haven't been up to the islands for several years, last time was to Col and Tiree, certainly wasn't 'full' of motorhomes, IIRC there was only one other motorhome on either of the ferries we used, but the week we came back there where no spaces outbound all had been booked weeks in advance by (mainly) car drivers going to the music festival.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

colinm said:


> I must admit to not knowing the RET didn't apply to commercial vehicles, and it does seem slightly odd that a subsidy designed to keep down costs for those living on islands shouldn't apply, that aside, this is a tax payer funded subsidy, for it to be used to try and keep out certain classes of private vehicle seems a bit rich to me.
> We haven't been up to the islands for several years, last time was to Col and Tiree, certainly wasn't 'full' of motorhomes, IIRC there was only one other motorhome on either of the ferries we used, but the week we came back there where no spaces outbound all had been booked weeks in advance by (mainly) car drivers going to the music festival.


Thanks Colin, yes the ferries are busy at high season peak times, but not with motorhomes.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

barryd said:


> Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff.


Barry that would defeat the whole purpose of RTE. RTE is supposed to encourage people to visit the islands and for the visitors to spend money within the local economy. When RTE was first applied to Arran all the hotels and b&b’s highlighted the reduced costs of coming to the island with your car. Also the islands are already heavily subsidised by the mainland. What you suggest would mean that we would pay for cheap fares for islanders whilst we would pay full fare. I reckon that without RTE a car, driver, and passenger without RTE to Arran would be around £190 return today. That would have a severe affect on visitor numbers, and their local economies.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

I just did a price check on the CalMac website for a 6m van and a 6-6.5m van to Arran. It went from £33.50 to £49.50 *on current prices * But although when booking you are given a long list of sizes it seems that motorhomes up to 8m are the same price. Possibly they could have introduced a more varied price list based on length. It seems wrong that someone with say a 6.3 van conversion should pay the same as someone with an 8m Motorhome. The prices quoted above are only for the vehicle, and don’t include driver and passenger(s).


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## barryd (Dec 19, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Barry that would defeat the whole purpose of RTE. RTE is supposed to encourage people to visit the islands and for the visitors to spend money within the local economy. When RTE was first applied to Arran all the hotels and b&b’s highlighted the reduced costs of coming to the island with your car. Also the islands are already heavily subsidised by the mainland. What you suggest would mean that we would pay for cheap fares for islanders whilst we would pay full fare. I reckon that without RTE a car, driver, and passenger without RTE to Arran would be around £190 return today. That would have a severe affect on visitor numbers, and their local economies.



Was that the whole purpose of it though?  Was it not also put in place to help residents who presumably need to use the ferries on a regular basis.  Both perhaps I dont know.

One things for sure, I dont think it would make much difference to Arran and probably other islands and certainly not in the current climate.  There is only so much accommodation on the island and when we were there in the height of summer it was clear everywhere was full, even the campsites, it was also pretty clear that these were well healed wealthy visitors in the main.  Its not a cheap place to go, neither are all the other islands. I doubt a small rise in ferry fares will put these people off going.  However I am confused by the prices.  I cant remember what we paid. About £35 each way or something so a 50-70% price hike would not be that much more and nowhere near the £190 you quote but I do remember before this tariff was introduced we used to pay way more. About £160 return I think.

I also know a lot of locals were furious about the lack of availability on the ferries this summer and for the first time ever we had trouble getting a return ticket and had to book about a week in advance.  There were other issues though also with Covid and mechanical issues all summer but without doubt in the current climate at least, I dont think tourism will suffer no matter what they charge.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

barryd said:


> Was that the whole purpose of it though?  Was it not also put in place to help residents who presumably need to use the ferries on a regular basis.  Both perhaps I dont know.
> 
> One things for sure, I dont think it would make much difference to Arran and probably other islands and certainly not in the current climate.  There is only so much accommodation on the island and when we were there in the height of summer it was clear everywhere was full, even the campsites, it was also pretty clear that these were well healed wealthy visitors in the main.  Its not a cheap place to go, neither are all the other islands. I doubt a small rise in ferry fares will put these people off going.  However I am confused by the prices.  I cant remember what we paid. About £35 each way or something so a 50-70% price hike would not be that much more and nowhere near the £190 you quote but I do remember before this tariff was introduced we used to pay way more. About £160 return I think.
> 
> I also know a lot of locals were furious about the lack of availability on the ferries this summer and for the first time ever we had trouble getting a return ticket and had to book about a week in advance.  There were other issues though also with Covid and mechanical issues all summer but without doubt in the current climate at least, I dont think tourism will suffer no matter what they charge.


First Barry no. The purpose of RTE was manifold. Yes it was partially to help locals travel cheaper to the mainland, and also to encourage more to live on the islands. And for most islanders the cheaper fares are what they see as the main benefit for themselves. But those who run businesses on the islands and offer much needed employment see things much differently. From their perspective and the Scottish governments perspective helping local businesses by attracting more visitors helps greatly the local economy. This in turn helps to re populate much under populated islands. This in turn further improves both the sustainability and the long term viability of our islands that are a burden on the Scottish economy. Some locals fail to grasp fully the full implications of increasing the costs of travelling to their island.
On your travel cost to Arran, currently a six metre van with driver and passenger is £49.50 return, without RTE it would be about £180-190, a massive price increase, that would do much damage to their economy. Also it’s well healed people that for obvious reasons that they want to attract. They will spend more, and in some cases will even move to the islands to live.
Also as you rightly state a small increase in price won’t put people off travelling, so then what is the point in doing so Barry. But your suggestion to remove the RTE completely would massively increase prices, this would restrict travel, and would greatly damage their local economies.


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## barryd (Dec 19, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> First Barry no. The purpose of RTE was manifold. Yes it was partially to help locals travel cheaper to the mainland, and also to encourage more to live on the islands. And for most islanders the cheaper fares are what they see as the main benefit for themselves. But those who run businesses on the islands and offer much needed employment see things much differently. From their perspective and the Scottish governments perspective helping local businesses by attracting more visitors helps greatly the local economy. This in turn helps to re populate much under populated islands. This in turn further improves both the sustainability and the long term viability of our islands that are a burden on the Scottish economy. Some locals fail to grasp fully the full implications of increasing the costs of travelling to their island.
> On your travel cost to Arran, currently a six metre van with driver and passenger is £49.50 return, without RTE it would be about £180-190, a massive price increase, that would do much damage to their economy. Also it’s well healed people that for obvious reasons that they want to attract. They will spend more, and in some cases will even move to the islands to live.
> Also as you rightly state a small increase in price won’t put people off travelling, so then what is the point in doing so Barry. But your suggestion to remove the RTE completely would massively increase prices, this would restrict travel, and would greatly damage their local economies.



I just did a test ferry booking for Arran for our van for March (Which is as far in advance as it would let me) and it came out at £66.10 for a seven metre van.  I am not sure how you are arriving at the £180-£190 figure because even with a 70% hike our £66.10 booking would go up to just £112.37 although as I said earlier I am sure we used to pay about ten years ago about £160 return so somethings not right. Either the hike figure is incorrect or its going up like 170-200%.  Interesting though that the Cal Mac site still appears to be offering the RET tariff in March next year.

If its just going to be motorhomes then it does seem unfair although I would argue that in the current climate if it was applied to all tourist vehicles these islands would still be busy.  Its supply and demand and right now there is clearly a demand whatever the price.


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## Harryw (Dec 19, 2021)

Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week; 
2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…


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## barryd (Dec 19, 2021)

Harryw said:


> Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week;
> 2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…



I think I read somewhere that its the most expensive (per mile) ferry route in the world (perhaps short river crossings maybe work out more I dont know) but I bet it was stacked this summer gone.  I went at Christmas once in the van and it was even busy then. I wouldnt rush back to be honest.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

barryd said:


> I just did a test ferry booking for Arran for our van for March (Which is as far in advance as it would let me) and it came out at £66.10 for a seven metre van.  I am not sure how you are arriving at the £180-£190 figure because even with a 70% hike our £66.10 booking would go up to just £112.37 although as I said earlier I am sure we used to pay about ten years ago about £160 return so somethings not right. Either the hike figure is incorrect or its going up like 170-200%.  Interesting though that the Cal Mac site still appears to be offering the RET tariff in March next year.
> 
> If its just going to be motorhomes then it does seem unfair although I would argue that in the current climate if it was applied to all tourist vehicles these islands would still be busy.  Its supply and demand and right now there is clearly a demand whatever the price.


Barry I paid £136 in 2004 for a car to Arran. Allowing for inflation I don't think I am far of the mark.
Also Barry if you read the article commercial vehicles are not covered by RTE, and they are paying three times what a motorhome would have to pay.
You suggested completely removing the RTE, putting us in the same place as commercial users.
*"Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff."*
What's being proposed is way below that, insufficient to lower numbers, but an increase in fares none the less.
Luckily for me my current van is below 6M and I am not affected.
But a 60% rise would add only £29, I don't think that will deter many, so what's the point.
It seems to me that commercial vehicles should be covered by RTE, thus removing the apparent anomaly.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

Harryw said:


> Just ran a quick sanity check through going to the Isle of Wight down south mid week in Jan for a week;
> 2 people 6m van cheapest around £150, same but for a 8m van around £200…


Yes Harry my son took his car over there. It seems ridicules that the UK government is not doing more to support the Island. But that may be because the Isle of Wight does not suffer from the same problems that most of our many Islands do, with under population. Look at Jura its current population is 197, and the costs involved in keeping these islands as they are is massive. Something that I and most up here are fully supportive off. Our Island cultures are important to us.


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## barryd (Dec 19, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Barry I paid £136 in 2004 for a car to Arran. Allowing for inflation I don't think I am far of the mark.
> Also Barry if you read the article commercial vehicles are not covered by RTE, and they are paying three times what a motorhome would have to pay.
> You suggested completely removing the RTE, putting us in the same place as commercial users.
> *"Perhaps the fairest thing to do would be to give islanders the REF cheap tariff and everyone else no matter what you are driving the original none funded tariff."*
> ...



The article is misleading then or I Cant get my hungover brain around it all.  If commercial vehicles are paying three times what a motorhome is paying then the proposed 50-70% hike for motorhomes is nowhere near three times what we pay now.  So is it just a motorhome tax or the removal of RET just for motorhomes. It cant be the latter as the price hikes will not bring us close to what a commercial vehicle driver has to pay.

So unless I have this wrong in one breath you are saying we would be charged £190 and then in another you are saying its only going up £29. Im completely lost.  Which is it?


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

barryd said:


> The article is misleading then or I Cant get my hungover brain around it all.  If commercial vehicles are paying three times what a motorhome is paying then the proposed 50-70% hike for motorhomes is nowhere near three times what we pay now.  So is it just a motorhome tax or the removal of RET just for motorhomes. It cant be the latter as the price hikes will not bring us close to what a commercial vehicle driver has to pay.
> 
> So unless I have this wrong in one breath you are saying we would be charged £190 and then in another you are saying its only going up £29. Im completely lost.  Which is it?


With current proposals Barry we would pay an additional £29 on a 60% increase (The mean figure offered).
If RTE was completely removed as you suggested, you would pay three times more for your van an increase of between £100-120.
Barry what I am attempting to point out is one is ineffective, whilst the other would be so punitive to travellers as to seriously damage their economy.
To take one example, many who travel to the island with their cars go to Auchrannie.
Auchrannie is by far the largest employer on the Island.
If they put fares up by such a large amount their numbers would suffer, and islanders would lose their jobs.
Also Arran has six golf courses. Golfers travel to the Island to play the courses, and this revenue would also suffer.
All of these courses are struggling right now. You used to be able to get a ticket to play all six courses for £149.
Bye the way Machrie has what I believe to be the only 12 hole course on the planet.
Removing RTE completely from travellers Barry would set the Islands back.
Whilst charging us an extra £29 to travel to Arran will have little or no affect.


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## barryd (Dec 19, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> With current proposals Barry we would pay an additional £29 on a 60% increase (The mean figure offered).
> If RTE was completely removed you would pay three times more for your van an increase of between £100-120.
> Barry what I am attempting to point out is one is ineffective, whilst the other would be so punitive to travellers as to seriously damage their economy.
> To take one example, many who travel to the island with their cars go to Auchrannie.
> ...



Ok cheers.  I must have misunderstood as I thought they were removing the RET completely but it just seems its just a price hike for motorhomes then.

Im not convinced however the RET has made such a massive impact on tourism.  Its definitely been positive but like all the islands they only have so much accommodation which includes campsites and when they are full they are full.  I think the main difference has been in the the number of vehicles which has increased.  The actual number of people visiting according to this has only increased by 16% since before the RET.



			https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/33631/ts-amfc-ret-arran-final-report.pdf
		


Having been visiting the island for 30 years at all times of the year I cant say Ive seen that much difference in the visitor numbers.  I suspect you are right though, short stay visitors have probably increased. Golfers for the weekend or even the day and more people taking cars rather than coming on foot will see businesses benefit on the more remote sides of the island but I dont think it would make much difference to places like the Auchrannie.  I only ever stayed there once and it certainly wasnt cheap.  Well north of the none RET ferry fare per night and the food and drink were really expensive.  If you can afford to stay and eat in there I dont reckon you will be bothered too much about the ferry fare.

On reflection I think its wrong to penalise just us motorhomers but I would not be averse to a rise in fares for all. I think my initial concern as it has been for all the islands is the very thin line we tread in terms of the relaxed attitude the islands have had in the past towards us wild camping on them and as we have seen some islands are now restricting this.  Too many motorhomes causes problems and then we all end up losing out.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

barryd said:


> Ok cheers.  I must have misunderstood as I thought they were removing the RET completely but it just seems its just a price hike for motorhomes then.
> 
> Im not convinced however the RET has made such a massive impact on tourism.  Its definitely been positive but like all the islands they only have so much accommodation which includes campsites and when they are full they are full.  I think the main difference has been in the the number of vehicles which has increased.  The actual number of people visiting according to this has only increased by 16% since before the RET.
> 
> ...


Barry possibly Arran is a poor example but even Arran has suffered from de population. Arran’s current population currently sits at roughly 4600, but in the 19th century it was near 7,000. But the outer Hebrides have suffered massive de population there figures being less than a quarter to what they were in the late 19th century. On my first visit to Arran in 1973, you could have walked the 3 miles from Brodick to Lamlash and saw possibly 6-8 cars. Now that route is so unsafe to walk that with help from the EU they constructed a path between the two villages. Arran has changed greatly from these times. The large coop was not there, Auchrannie, Arran Aromatics, Arran Brewery, and both of its two whisky distilleries did not even exist. The holy isle was uninhabited, and the population was under 3,000.
With the advent of the internet, people can operate from anywhere, and some have taken advantage of this technology to move to the islands. But none of our islands are financially viable, not even Bute which is probably the most self sufficient of them all. When you look at the cost of building ferries ( the cost of the two now being built has exceeded £100 million), running them, building the infrastructure in the ports that supports them, manning them etc, you can see that trying to take care of just 90,000 people who inhabit our islands is costly.
If you are unwell on Jura you are flown by helicopter to Glasgow for treatment, can you imagine the cost in doing this. Taking care  of our islands involves two things. First us on the mainland putting our hands into our pockets, second trying to achieve islands that are more financially independent than they currently are. And putting up fares for travellers of any kind, is not what is required. I know two Motorhome owners who first ventured over to Arran ten years ago. Well they now live happily with their two kids on the island. They are now making Arran more viable, and all from a journey from London to Arran on a Motorhome. Now that’s what Arran and the rest of the islands need, not narrow minded selfish people who’s only goal is to feather their own nests, whilst venting their annoyance at anything, or anyone who upsets their slumber. Arran and the islands needs more young innovative people to work and live there, not an increase in fares for motorhomes and motorhomes only.


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## MikeBBB (Dec 19, 2021)

Out of interest, does anyone know the position regarding m/homes and commercial vehicles on the Norwegian ferry routes in Norway? Give the Scottish RET scheme was modelled to a great extent on the Norwegian model, it would be an interesting comparison. 

RET transformed the islands, and as with all things, that had positives and negatives. Rather like NC500. And the Skye Bridge. And ferries on the Sabbath! Need I go on? 

That CalMac sees fit to attempt to appease one group of users by penalizing another is unfortunate. The solution lies in greater ferry capacity and considerably improved facilities for motorized visitors to the islands. Then there's the little matter of whether CalMac actually runs an efficient service and all that debate entails.


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## mistericeman (Dec 19, 2021)

RET
					

ROAD EQUIVALENT TARIFFS were introduced to the CalMac network between 2012 and 2015. The previous fares were inconsistent and generally very high, particularly on shorter routes like ours. RET in p…




					mullandionaferrycommittee.org


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> RET
> 
> 
> ROAD EQUIVALENT TARIFFS were introduced to the CalMac network between 2012 and 2015. The previous fares were inconsistent and generally very high, particularly on shorter routes like ours. RET in p…
> ...


Thank you for that lots of interesting info there.
From the figures on here it would cost about £190 plus passengers for a 6m van to Arran roughly £222 and £250 plus passengers for an 8m van roughly £282 far higher than I estimated if RTE was removed. The Arran ferries are about 15% more expensive than the mull ferry figures shown on the link.


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## mistericeman (Dec 19, 2021)

Not sure this is of any interest 



			https://www.starconference.org.uk/star/2008/Paul_McCartney.pdf


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## colinm (Dec 19, 2021)

Reading the 'Transport Scotland' reports on the effects of RET is quite interesting.
Generally.
Residents have reported some problems with summer bookings, but this seems to be the general increase in traffic, no mention of motorhomes.
The 'season' has been extended, giving income over a longer period.
Many businesses have reported increases in spending by tourists, but those competing with the mainland have seen a reduction in spending by residents!


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

colinm said:


> Reading the 'Transport Scotland' reports on the effects of RET is quite interesting.
> Generally.
> Residents have reported some problems with summer bookings, but this seems to be the general increase in traffic, no mention of motorhomes.
> The 'season' has been extended, giving income over a longer period.
> Many businesses have reported increases in spending by tourists, but those competing with the mainland have seen a reduction in spending by residents!


Motorhomes are not the problem, there are not enough to make much difference. If they banned us these issues would still remain. The issues don’t revolve around lots of motorhomes filling ferries, but the attitudes of a minority who hold sway. CalMac have yet again shown what they think of us. Introducing a tariff for us solely speaks multitudes, and so soon after banning us solely from queuing, please note the word solely.


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## Fisherman (Dec 19, 2021)

Well, well.
I just got my hands on some figures for the Ardrossan to Brodick crossing for 2020
102,459 cars
6,864 commercial vehicles.
352 coaches 

*2,642 motorhomes and caravans.*
In winter months motorhomes are less than 1% of the vehicles transported.
These figures make a mockery of what has been going on in recent times.

I am waiting for the figures for all their crossings, and will post them when I receive them.


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## reiverlad (Dec 20, 2021)

I know both the benefits and the challenges & penalties of living here on Bute.
The benefit of a relaxing lifestyle combined with stunning views are hard to beat.
Also, having a regular bus service to get around here on the island is another welcome bonus.

The challenges are that in bad weather you have no idea if you are gonna get on or off the island !
The penalties of high food costs combined with a restricted range of goods and clothing all makes everyone dig deep into their pockets to live.
The other penalty I have to look out for, is the sneaky visits over here by Wully   

I have a huge difference to get on and off with my motorhome depending on where I want to go.

A 35 minute ferry trip to Wemyss Bay is £25.60 return and a 5 minute ferry trip north to Colintraive is £14.20 return

The islanders are encouraged by Calmac to go on the ferry as foot passengers and to that end it costs me £1.50 return.

A significant increase in the ferry cost for my motorhome would certainly make me think carefully as to whether I would continue to live here on Bute.


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## Fisherman (Dec 20, 2021)

reiverlad said:


> I know both the benefits and the challenges & penalties of living here on Bute.
> The benefit of a relaxing lifestyle combined with stunning views are hard to beat.
> Also, having a regular bus service to get around here on the island is another welcome bonus.
> 
> ...


If I was living on a Scottish island I would be contacting my councillor to ask why on Earth there are people who wish to punish those visiting your island. I know Bute well, from ages 3-14 my parents took me to the coop camps in Canada Hill. From there as a boy I ventured all over your island. Pike fishing on lochs Fad and Ascog was great then. My only 20lb plus pike came from the Dam at loch Ascog.
Seriously these proposals are a disgrace, as I have shown motorhomes make up less than 3% of vehicles on the Arran crossing, probably the same for Bute. I am still waiting for figures on all of CalMacs crossings.


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## alcam (Dec 21, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Well, well.
> I just got my hands on some figures for the Ardrossan to Brodick crossing for 2020
> 102,459 cars
> 6,864 commercial vehicles.
> ...


Pity they couldn't break it down to tourist cars and residents . Average 50 vans a week ?
Probably huge variation between summer and winter .
Even if vans take up double the space still not huge number


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## Fisherman (Dec 21, 2021)

alcam said:


> Pity they couldn't break it down to tourist cars and residents . Average 50 vans a week ?
> Probably huge variation between summer and winter .
> Even if vans take up double the space still not huge number


Believe it or not they include motorhomes as cars. Fortunately I know someone who can get info on Motorhome figures separately that are not posted online. I can tell you that in 2020 CalMac transported 827,526 cars, 1,604 coaches, and 68,397 commercial vehicles on all of their routes combined. But trying to get a figure for motorhomes will take a while. Our figure is within the total for cars, and I suspect it will be less than 3% of all vehicles, which makes a mockery of this new charge. If we all stopped travelling on the ferries it would hardly make much difference. Also don’t forget that at least half of the motorhomes head to campsites, with more including ourselves who spend some of their visit in them.


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## davef (Dec 24, 2021)

The new motorhome fares for Calmac to Arran start from 24 March. Those under 6m remain the same as a car. Those 6-8m jump from £49.70 to £85.50, and those 8-10m increase from £66.80 to £102. Probably an acceptable price to most motorhome visitors I would have thought.
 The RET was modelled on the successful Scandinavian model and was designed to be self funding by making the islands more viable and thereby increase government taxes. The fact that it did not include commercial fares shows that it was not specifically meant for the benefit of islanders - everything brought to the island is considerably more expensive than on the mainland, making cost of living high. That and the crazy price of housing for locals is what will make the future viability of the islands uncertain, as well as the increasingly unreliable ferry service. The population is aging. I came here 50 years ago when Arran was very run down with abandoned houses scattered all over the island and the youngsters moving off as soon as they could and the future of the high school in doubt. A couple of years earlier "Operation Beacon" had been set up to repopulate Arran guaranteeing any prepared to move here a house and a job. Someone I worked with had come over from Glasgow on that scheme.
RET certainly made life easier for those living here and greatly benefitted some businesses though definitely not all.


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## peterFuller (Dec 25, 2021)

barryd said:


> Looks like the days of the RET (Road Equivalent Tariff) discount for motorhomes is ending next year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





barryd said:


> Looks like the days of the RET (Road Equivalent Tariff) discount for motorhomes is ending next year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was involved in surveys before and after RET was introduced.  From the outset it was hoped that an increase in tourism might be one benefit of the lower fares, but there was concern that more capacity would be needed in peak tourist periods.  But increasing the capacity of the ferry service is a slow business with only one new vessel built every 2-3 years, and no spare crews available to increase sailings just through a short summer season. From the outset it was recognised that supplies of food, fuel, agricultural produce could easily be disrupted if tourist traffic increased, and could become critical if even just one of the larger ferries were to become unserviceable in peak periods.  This indeed happened when the Oban- Barra ferry broke down in midsummer some years ago and instead of getting weekly supplies the islands had to wait a fortnight.  Fuel ran out, f food had to be thrown away and livestock in cattle lorries had to be expensively fed on the pier at Oban! It has been a good thing that the summer season has become longer, but the problem of the peak weeks has not been resolved, and the increase in staycations has only made these issues worse.


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## Fisherman (Dec 25, 2021)

peterFuller said:


> I was involved in surveys before and after RET was introduced.  From the outset it was hoped that an increase in tourism might be one benefit of the lower fares, but there was concern that more capacity would be needed in peak tourist periods.  But increasing the capacity of the ferry service is a slow business with only one new vessel built every 2-3 years, and no spare crews available to increase sailings just through a short summer season. From the outset it was recognised that supplies of food, fuel, agricultural produce could easily be disrupted if tourist traffic increased, and could become critical if even just one of the larger ferries were to become unserviceable in peak periods.  This indeed happened when the Oban- Barra ferry broke down in midsummer some years ago and instead of getting weekly supplies the islands had to wait a fortnight.  Fuel ran out, f food had to be thrown away and livestock in cattle lorries had to be expensively fed on the pier at Oban! It has been a good thing that the summer season has become longer, but the problem of the peak weeks has not been resolved, and the increase in staycations has only made these issues worse.


That’s all fine Peter I have no problems with what you state.
But why concentrate only on motorhomes and campers when they account for less than 3% of the traffic. If CalMac took measures to control the amount of cars crossing also I would have no problems. If we stopped traveling to the islands tomorrow it would make hardly any difference. It just seems to myself and some others that we bear the brunt of such measures solely. Hope you have a good Christmas.


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## mistericeman (Dec 25, 2021)

Maybe we should all stay home and just transfer what we would have spent by PayPal to save any inconvenience


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## davef (Dec 26, 2021)

What is maybe more of a worry than the increase for some on the ferries was the announcement a week or so ago by the junior transport minister that " private transport is so last 20th century, the future is public transport and car sharing pools". The banning of ICE vehicles and of oil field licences suggests that policy is being enacted, in which case wildcamping will soon be just a fond memory....


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## Fisherman (Dec 26, 2021)

davef said:


> What is maybe more of a worry than the increase for some on the ferries was the announcement a week or so ago by the junior transport minister that " private transport is so last 20th century, the future is public transport and car sharing pools". The banning of ICE vehicles and of oil field licences suggests that policy is being enacted, in which case wildcamping will soon be just a fond memory....



HAPPY NEW YEAR DAVE.


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## Piper01 (Dec 28, 2021)

*For 2020 we planned a trip to Arran, Hopscotch, to Brodick and leaving from Lochranza. Costt 52,90 Due to Corano we were not allowed to enter the UK. Now we are planning for 2022. Same ferry, different price. Now 85,20. In 2 years time more than 50% up.*


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## fiona68 (Dec 29, 2021)

Just booked our Ferries today for the Outer Hebrideas…….Transport Scotland has done away with the Hopscotch Tickets so you can only book single  journeys if your wanting separate islands as in hopscotch mode. Our journey, which we do every year nearly made me greet……but hay ho….it’s what it is….we are paying just over £100 more for same journey….


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## Fisherman (Dec 29, 2021)

I just price checked my current van which is just under 6m price £34.20
I then put in a van at 6.3m and the price rose to £85.50.
Previously £41.70
Both prices vehicle only, to Arran from Ardrossan.
Thats double what was paid before.
Yet the Article mentioned just 50-70% rise.
I also noticed that they only have two prices now,  mohos under 6m and mohos over up to 8m.
I think I will be contacting CalMac soon.
To ask them.
1) why such an enormous rise.
2) what happens if towing a caravan.
3) will this not damage local economies, particularly campsites on the islands.
4) has this been sanctioned by the Scottish Government.
5) does this rise apply to islanders with motorhomes also.


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## Fisherman (Dec 29, 2021)

I have just emailed two campsites on Arran to let them know.


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## fiona68 (Dec 29, 2021)

We unfortunatly are just over 6 m…if under, the price is not much more than last year. I think Transport Scotland is part of Scottish Goverment and they did do a consultation……maybe the Islands will be quieter as a result, which is why we go. We like to just chill out…


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## Fisherman (Dec 29, 2021)

fiona68 said:


> We unfortunatly are just over 6 m…if under, the price is not much more than last year. I think Transport Scotland is part of Scottish Goverment and they did do a consultation……maybe the Islands will be quieter as a result, which is why we go. We like to just chill out…


I can’t argue with any of that Fiona, so do we.
This rise won’t affect us, but if it did I would still travel.
I fear that this won’t make much difference.
I reckon the Islands will be just as popular.
We normally go three times a year to Arran for 5 days.
If I was affected I would consider going twice for a week instead.


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## Robmac (Dec 29, 2021)

My van is 'about' 6 metres I think.

Do they measure you?


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## Robmac (Dec 29, 2021)

Robmac said:


> My van is 'about' 6 metres I think.
> 
> Do they measure you?



...just checked the specifications and mine is either 6198 mm or 6848 mm.   

I'd best measure it myself!


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## Fisherman (Dec 29, 2021)

Robmac said:


> My van is 'about' 6 metres I think.
> 
> Do they measure you?


They don’t measure you Rob, but they ask for your vehicle length and model before departure. But I can spot the difference between a 6m van and a 6.3m van. We have been asked our length in the past and I quote 5.99m which is what the manufacturer states. But then if I was 6.3m then it only made a £13 diffence in price now it’s £51. I reckon they will be more vigilant now.


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## Robmac (Dec 29, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> They don’t measure you Rob, but they ask for your vehicle length and model before departure. But I can spot the difference between a 6m van and a 6.3m van. We have been asked our length in the past and I quote 5.99m which is what the manufacturer states. But then if I was 6.3m then it only made a £13 diffence in price now it’s £51. I reckon they will be more vigilant now.



My work van has been measured before Bill, but that was on the Isle of Wight ferry.

I had booked a ticket for a van less than six metres (guesstimate!) and luckily it was. I don't know what they would have done if it had been over - probably just made me pay the excess I suppose.


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## fiona68 (Dec 29, 2021)

We’ve seen them get the tape out at Uig in the past….we just don’t risk it as we’re 6.2 metres but twin wheels and long wheel base so we do look big…saves us sitting sweating at check in lol


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## davef (Dec 29, 2021)

I suspect when you book and give your registration number, all the vehicle details come up on their computer screen, including length.


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## barryd (Dec 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I just price checked my current van which is just under 6m price £34.20
> I then put in a van at 6.3m and the price rose to £85.50.
> Previously £41.70
> Both prices vehicle only, to Arran from Ardrossan.
> ...



Missed the replies to this so I just went and checked and did a price check for late May 2020 for a 7.5m van and this is what I get.  I cant remember what we paid last year. Think it was about £33 one way.  So that would be just over a 50% hike.


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## mariesnowgoose (Dec 31, 2021)

50% increase at those prices is chicken feed when factored in to the cost of buying and running your mohos in the first place.

Shouldn't make the trip unaffordable for the majority of the forum's users. 

I'm personally more concerned about our domestic power bills in April when our fixed contract with Octopus runs out...


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## Fisherman (Dec 31, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> 50% increase at those prices is chicken feed when factored in to the cost of buying and running your mohos in the first place.
> 
> Shouldn't make the trip unaffordable for the majority of the forum's users.
> 
> I'm personally more concerned about our domestic power bills in April when our fixed contract with Octopus runs out...


And that’s my point Marie. It won’t restrict mohos going to the islands.
All it will do is fill CalMacs coffers at the behest of some sad islanders with nothing better to do with their time.


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## barryd (Dec 31, 2021)

It might possibly put a few off that simply use the island as a shortcut transit for the Lochranza ferry over to Kintyre.  I know some islanders were annoyed about that after the ferry prices were vastly reduced as they claimed they clogged up the ferries and roads simply to just drive across the island and leave.  Why anyone would do that though anyway is beyond me.


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## mariesnowgoose (Dec 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> And that’s my point Marie. It won’t restrict mohos going to the islands.
> All it will do is fill CalMacs coffers at the behest of some sad islanders with nothing better to do with their time.



Are you begrudging CalMac their profits? 

Fuel isn't cheap at the moment and everything else has shot up in price 

Just sayin'


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## Fisherman (Dec 31, 2021)

barryd said:


> It might possibly put a few off that simply use the island as a shortcut transit for the Lochranza ferry over to Kintyre.  I know some islanders were annoyed about that after the ferry prices were vastly reduced as they claimed they clogged up the ferries and roads simply to just drive across the island and leave.  Why anyone would do that though anyway is beyond me.


It will possibly make folk stay longer Barry.
This is just another cheap shot at the 2.5% they Ferry, who are apparently filling the ferries.


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## Fisherman (Dec 31, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Are you begrudging CalMac their profits?
> 
> Fuel isn't cheap at the moment and everything else has shot up in price
> 
> Just sayin'


Who me I just love CalMac, I love filling their coffers, lovely people they are.


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## barryd (Dec 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> It will possibly make folk stay longer Barry.
> This is just another cheap shot at the 2.5% they Ferry, who are apparently filling the ferries.



Might do. I hadn't considered that. Could work for the islanders though if the hopscotchers stay a few days to get their moneys worth and then spend a few quid locally although I suspect anyone that penny pinching will come fully stocked and spend nothing.  I selfishly hoped it would reduce numbers to be honest.


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## Fisherman (Dec 31, 2021)

barryd said:


> Might do. I hadn't considered that. Could work for the islanders though if the hopscotchers stay a few days to get their moneys worth and then spend a few quid locally although I suspect anyone that penny pinching will come fully stocked and spend nothing.  I selfishly hoped it would reduce numbers to be honest.


Would £40 put you off, it’s still a lot cheaper than it used to be Barry. Without RTE it would be double the price.


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## barryd (Dec 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Would £40 put you off





Fisherman said:


> Would £40 put you off



No but it might put someone else off especially if they are transiting.  I think you disagree but Im pretty sure the amount of motorhome traffic to the islands increased after the ferry costs were drastically lowered so price must matter to some motorhomers.  It doesnt matter to me if its £40 or £140, we stay for weeks so in the great scheme of things it wont make that much difference.


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## Fisherman (Dec 31, 2021)

barryd said:


> No but it might put someone else off especially if they are transiting.  I think you disagree but Im pretty sure the amount of motorhome traffic to the islands increased after the ferry costs were drastically lowered so price must matter to some motorhomers.  It doesnt matter to me if its £40 or £140, we stay for weeks so in the great scheme of things it wont make that much difference.


Barry all traffic increased on the ferries, but more so cars.
As I stated already in 2004 I paid £135 for my car and both of us.
Without RTE it would now be about £220.
Its currently £51, the volume of cars has increased, hence the larger ferries on order.
I know folk who used to leave their cars at Ardrossan, who now take their cars over.
Motorhomes make up a tiny proportion of the vehicles around 2-3%.
Also I reckon the transiting is grossly exaggerated.
Also the ferry journeys from Lochranza to Claonaig are mainly for tourists.
Hence why they don't run in the winter.
It won't stop me from travelling, and its the principle more than anything that angers me.


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## reiverlad (Dec 31, 2021)

Robmac said:


> bayMy van is 'about' 6 metres I think.
> 
> Do they measure you?


I have been measured in the past at Wemyss Bay - so you can't depend on them taking your word for your van length.

Plus i reckon they will be instructed to be more vigilant on checking now that there is a significant difference in price above the break point !

It seems the under 6m increase for me is 80p - so I can live with that !!


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