# Flat starter battery



## Phantom (Nov 25, 2020)

We've been parked up on EHU for the last 3 weeks with the onboard charger keeping the hab batteries topped up but it doesn't do the starter battery. We have a battery master that is supposed to send 0.5Ah from LB to SB when there is 0.5V difference. I went to start up the moho today but SB was flat and showing just under 12v. Thinking about it I changed my solar controller a few weeks ago, the old one charged both batteries but this one doesn't so maybe the battery master is not doing it's thing?  I'll have to do some checks tomorrow and also see if there is a drain on SB.
To charge the SB I removed it (was a right pig to get out) and connected it to LBs with jump leads and the onboard charger seems to be charging it, though at a lower voltage than the LBs. The SB is about 2 years old and surprised that it went flat in just 3 weeks. Alternatively I guess I could have just swapped the battery wires over at the solar regulator but would have been a very slow charge.


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## Herman (Nov 25, 2020)

My dual battery solar charger packed in last year after only 2 years, so I bought another off Fleabay, Then afterwards I thought if this packs in abroad we could be stuffed so for a tenner I've ordered another to carry as a spare








						20A Dual Battery Solar Charge Controller Regulator For 12V or 24V Batteries Boat  | eBay
					

Short circuit protection. Open circuit protection. Reverse connection protection. Detail Image.



					www.ebay.co.uk


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## Phantom (Nov 25, 2020)

Herman said:


> My dual battery solar charger packed in last year after only 2 years, so I bought another off Fleabay, Then afterwards I thought if this packs in abroad we could be stuffed so for a tenner I've ordered another to carry as a spare
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the one I replaced but keep as a spare.


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## witzend (Nov 25, 2020)

Heres what I been using for several years http://www.motts.org/BRIDGING FUSE.htm


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2020)

Herman said:


> My dual battery solar charger packed in last year after only 2 years, so I bought another off Fleabay, Then afterwards I thought if this packs in abroad we could be stuffed so for a tenner I've ordered another to carry as a spare
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At that price its a pwm and not a much better mppt like this with duel output, 1 ah to starter.


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## trevskoda (Nov 25, 2020)

witzend said:


> Heres what I been using for several years http://www.motts.org/BRIDGING FUSE.htm


200ah relay and switch works better, you can then link all batts together for emergency start.


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## Phantom (Nov 27, 2020)

Not had chance to check the wiring yet but I've just found out the cause of my flat SB. The battery master has always displayed a green light so I just assumed that meant that it was working okay. But have now read that green just indicates that the SB and LB's are balanced and should change to red when charging SB, which it never has. So should be an easy fix unless a problem with the device itself.


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## trevskoda (Nov 27, 2020)

Brother-in-law never reads instruction books .


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## Phantom (Nov 27, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Brother-in-law never reads instruction books .


Well I didn't buy or fit the thing! But £70 for a tiny resin block with 3 wires, what's possibly to know? Only had the moho for nearly 3 years!


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## wildebus (Nov 27, 2020)

Ablemail AMT Battery Maintainer is much more flexible.  Tunable for any combination of Starter Battery and Leisure Battery, plus different charging methods and current demands
Adjusted mine to suit a higher starter battery draw (due to a specific load) and a Battery Charger that has a storage mode as well as a float mode.


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## Phantom (Nov 27, 2020)

This one reckons to charge SB at 1.1AH when it detects 0.8V difference, though sure I read some slightly different specs before?


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## Nabsim (Nov 28, 2020)

Check fuses, my EBL charges my starter battery as well as my habitation batteries when i plug generator in which is the same as you going on ehu. If your Phantom is like mine you will have a 50amp fuse with a smaller fuse holder piggy backed on it. When mine stops charging its the smaller fuse.


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## Phantom (Dec 1, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Check fuses, my EBL charges my starter battery as well as my habitation batteries when i plug generator in which is the same as you going on ehu. If your Phantom is like mine you will have a 50amp fuse with a smaller fuse holder piggy backed on it. When mine stops charging its the smaller fuse.


I had previously mistakenly assumed that the Durite VSR was supposed to be charging LB, but today figured that it is actually for the fridge when on 12v, which I had expected to have been fed from EBL?
A previous owner had a separate Zig X70 charger fitted which is directly connected to 
LB as solar is, so neither charge SB alone. Even if the EBL internal charger is dead then surely the external replacement could have been connected the same way to charge SB also? I intend to check out the EBL charger to know for sure.
When on EHU my SB is recieving just 0.1A which I assume is from the battery master that is supposed to supply 1.1A, I'll double check this tomorrow by measuring the rate directly at the battery master SB output. The SB has recently been at 12.49v by day and up to around 12.7v when on EHU before dropping back again, the battery is good though, just not getting a decent charge rate so I ran engine for a while to give it a boost, and it's not been started for 3 weeks anyway, the ground just turned black under the exhaust!  I was only getting a 0.25v voltage drop over the 7m between SB and LB so that seems quite acceptable.
I'm still figuring out what wiring changes and additions have been made to original as it's useful to know what the various extra fuses are for and if there is a better way? I have a 30A fuse at each end with a 20A fuse next to it at SB end, so from what you say I guess that's the original charge wire from EBL?
A recent look at the EBL99 wiring diagram was most useful to see how it originally worked! Am slowly sussing it out and almost there now.


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## Ewky (Dec 2, 2020)

I ve got 2 Victron dc/dc chargers on the van,1 x 30a to charge the LB from alternator, and 1 x 9A to charge the SB from the LB while on EHU or solar,I’ve triggered the 9A dc/dc charger by the solar panel and battery monitor,the beauty of this set up,it acts as a trickle charger & a power supply for the electrics connected to the SB,ie it Powers the radio etc which other battery maintainers can’t do!


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## Nabsim (Dec 2, 2020)

I remember someone looking at the wiring diagram for the EBL and saying there is no way it can be charging the starter battery when on EHU but mine does so without doubt. That part of the van is still OEM (one of the very few bits that is), mine has an 18amp Schaudt battery charger built into the EBL and I added a second Schaudt 18amp charger that just plugs into the back (front?) of the EBL.
I am not at the van for a few days so can’t get a pic but the fuse close to the battery in mine is either a 40amp or 50amp and the clip on piggy back fuse is small, less than 10 amps and possibly only a 5 amp. I find when my starter battery charge fails it is usually that 5am fuse. If your EBL charging has been done away with then not sure how they intended your to work. Is it possible to plug your mains charger into the Schaudt using the second battery charger connection port? May be too big on amps though to do that. I know some early EBL’s were only 10 or 15 amp chargers, later ones may well be higher than my twin 18amps. My EBL is a 101-2 so a different beast to yours


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## wildebus (Dec 2, 2020)

Ewky said:


> I ve got 2 Victron dc/dc chargers on the van,1 x 30a to charge the LB from alternator, and 1 x 9A to charge the SB from the LB while on EHU or solar,I’ve triggered the 9A dc/dc charger by the solar panel and battery monitor,the beauty of this set up,it acts as a trickle charger & a power supply for the electrics connected to the SB,ie it Powers the radio etc which other battery maintainers can’t do!


Nice setup.  However ...

There is something you need to watch out for with this though .... the 9A B2B that charges the SB from the LB will raise the SB Voltage up of course.
When it increases sufficiently, it will hit the threshold for the 30A B2B to then switch on and start charging the LB from the SB, and that will stay active until the off-voltage threshold is met.
The result is that your 9A charge INTO the SB will end up being a 30A charge OUT OF the SB!  Net difference... you will pull around 20A out the Starter Battery while the intention was to put 9A in, plus you will have all the energy losses in both B2Bs  (each around 85% efficient).  On mains you will just waste pennies, but on Solar, you will waste precious harvesting power.

You can get round this to a degree with the Victron Kit by using the remote input of the 30A B2B so it only comes on when the engine is running or maybe just the ignition/Acc line  (you wouldn't want to use a trigger generated by the Solar Panel as the solar will still be active when you are driving).


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## colinm (Dec 2, 2020)

I maybe wrong, but AFAIK the EBL99 will only charge the SB if it has wired to do so, and even then it is a small charge, whilst it will take the LB's up to higher voltage the SB won't go above 13v.
Our van has only a very small drop in LB when not in use, but the SB only goes a few weeks, but put it on EHU and the LB gets full charge, and SB gets very little, it's for this reason I still use my 'old' solar panel connected to SB, even thou I could use the EHU.
p.s. should note, the van is stored under cover, which is why I have to 'plug in' the old solar panel which is fixed to outside of shed.


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> If your EBL charging has been done away with then not sure how they intended your to work. Is it possible to plug your mains charger into the Schaudt using the second battery charger connection port? May be too big on amps though to do that. I know some early EBL’s were only 10 or 15 amp chargers, later ones may well be higher than my twin 18amps. My EBL is a 101-2 so a different beast to yours.


Yes, just had a better look and the EBL99 is designed to charge both batteries with it's 18A charger just like yours. It does have connections for an aux charger on block 7 so by moving the other 12.5A charger to there should charge the SB also. The fridge should also be from the EBL too but is not for some reason.


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

I took a look inside the EBL and confirmed that it's charger was well shot with about six components burnt out. So I connected my Zig X-70 charger to the EBL aux charger connections but it was still only charging LB. The EBL SB charger relay needs to be triggered to charge SB via pin 8 of block 3, but even directly connecting another charger to the original ones output connections would still not do that alone. I guess a mains powered relay would ideally remedy this to work as originally intended. Though simply manually linking the SB & LB via a switch would also have the same end result. It's handy to suss out how things actually work and being parked in a field for the foreseeable future It's just something extra to investigate to pass the time and learning a bit more too! So don't mind my thinking aloud here. Now why isn't the fridge wired to the EBL? 
There is a 70A SB cut off relay in the EBL that links SB and LB when engine is running triggered by D+.


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

Ignore the highlighted bits.


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

Whilst on EHU tonight I've connected a separate 6A charger to SB via my inverter to give it a boost. So a charger powering a charger of sorts!


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

What I notice now that I have the charger connected via the EBL is that it's only charging LB at 13.05v, whereas connected direct to LB charges at 13.6v. I wasn't expecting any difference.


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## Phantom (Dec 2, 2020)

There's some really great info about how EBL's functions Here.


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## Ewky (Dec 3, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Nice setup.  However ...
> 
> There is something you need to watch out for with this though .... the 9A B2B that charges the SB from the LB will raise the SB Voltage up of course.
> When it increases sufficiently, it will hit the threshold for the 30A B2B to then switch on and start charging the LB from the SB, and that will stay active until the off-voltage threshold is met.
> ...




Totally agree with the above,but that’s not the case.it’s been running flawlessly for over 6 months as it was designed to.i use the battery monitor and charge controller as a bms in tandem...the 9A DC/DC power is supplied from the mppt only when the LB is in absorption state,then the battery monitor will only switch on the 9A DC/DC charger when the LB is above 98% SOC and the starter battery hasn’t reached 14V(engine not running).
unless these parameters are met the charging doesn’t take place.
as for the 9A triggering the 30A and causing cycling,this is not the case as 9A is set @ a storage voltage of 13.22V for the SB and the engine detection settings for the smart alternator are 14.10V tigger on.done this install on my mates boat for his bow thruster batteries last year without Any issues.
this is all sounds a bit complex,but is so simple utilising the existing controls that you have in place! Just an extra £35 for the additional victron 9A dc/dc charger.
ps... all the victron kit apart from the dc/dc chargers are all connected to Venus GX for remote monitoring and control,so I know it functions when I’m away from the van!.


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## wildebus (Dec 3, 2020)

So in other words, you configured it in order to avoid that issue    Good Stuff


Just one question... where did you buy a Victron 9A DC/DC charger for £35?  that is one hell of a discount!


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## Ewky (Dec 3, 2020)

wildebus said:


> So in other words, you configured it in order to avoid that issue    Good Stuff
> 
> 
> Just one question... where did you buy a Victron 9A DC/DC charger for £35?  that is one hell of a discount!


I always install victron kit....when doing off grid & grid tie systems,so I get very good discount on victron products!


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## wildebus (Dec 4, 2020)

Ewky said:


> I always install victron kit....when doing off grid & grid tie systems,so I get very good discount on victron products!


I've not seen that price from any of my trade suppliers.  Maybe I need to buy from you!


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## xsilvergs (Dec 4, 2020)

Interesting, Orion Tr 12 - 12 - 9.

What could I use one of these for?


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## wildebus (Dec 4, 2020)

xsilvergs said:


> Interesting, Orion Tr 12 - 12 - 9.
> 
> What could I use one of these for?


The TR-Smart units can be used as Power Supplies as well as Chargers.  This means that you could use them as a DC-DC Converters between Battery/Charging Systems and the Motorhome electric outlets and provide a steady set voltage rather than the variable ones experienced as battery SoC drop and as chargers come on (always thought delivering a steady voltage is heathier then delivering between 15V to potentially down to 11.5V (if inverter in use))
I was thinking to do this with the 12/12/30A unit I have up for sale (instead of selling it) but it's a bit of an expensive unit for just that function (it is a shame that Victron don't make a normal 12/12 DC-DC Converter to go alongside the 12/24 and 24/12 converters .
So that is one use.  The 9A one is probably a bit small for that kind of purpose however and you won't find one for sale for close to £35 either 

I might try the above using a Ablemail AMC 12-12-30A B2B as that can also be programmed as a charger in the same way (although have to use a PC rather than Smartphone App)
Downside of course is that you are 1) introducing another component that will always be on and using some power and a potential point of failure.


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## Nabsim (Dec 5, 2020)

Phantom said:


> There's some really great info about how EBL's functions Here.


doesn't open for me


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## Hughendon (Dec 6, 2020)

Phantom said:


> There's some really great info about how EBL's functions Here.


doesn't open for me too.


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## Wooie1958 (Dec 6, 2020)

Same here


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## wildebus (Dec 6, 2020)

it will be the caravan site that has good stuff - but also some pretty misleading stuff in there, so for that reason is blocked from linking,


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## Nabsim (Dec 6, 2020)

wildebus said:


> it will be the caravan site that has good stuff - but also some pretty misleading stuff in there, so for that reason is blocked from linking,


No it isn't a and n Dave, a different site


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## wildebus (Dec 6, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> No it isn't a and n Dave, a different site


fair enough. it is another one which has been specifically blocked for some reason  (as opposed to a typo in the original link)


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## Markd (Dec 6, 2020)

Have we tracked down a good description of EBL operation that doesn't get blocked yet?


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## Admin (Dec 6, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> No it isn't a and n Dave, a different site


Yes, it is.


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## Markd (Dec 7, 2020)

Don't tell him Pike!


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## Phantom (Dec 7, 2020)

wildebus said:


> it will be the caravan site that has good stuff - but also some pretty misleading stuff in there, so for that reason is blocked from linking,


Which part is mis-leading? Do you mean how the EBL is designed to function? Thanks.


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## wildebus (Dec 7, 2020)

Phantom said:


> Which part is mis-leading? Do you mean how the EBL is designed to function? Thanks.


I mean there are some articles on that website that are misleading - and plain incorrect - and Philip has taken the decision to block the site for that reason as I understand it. 
What it says about the EBL I have no idea.


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## Phantom (Dec 7, 2020)

wildebus said:


> I mean there are some articles on that website that are misleading - and plain incorrect - and Philip has taken the decision to block the site for that reason as I understand it.
> What it says about the EBL I have no idea.


It was just a link to the EBL page, but if anyone simply Googles 'schaudt-elektroblock' the first two results in chrome are quite informative about EBL function. I found it very useful anyway even if taboo here?


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## wildebus (Dec 7, 2020)

Phantom said:


> It was just a link to the EBL page, but if anyone simply Googles 'schaudt-elektroblock' the first two results in chrome are quite informative about EBL function. I found it very useful anyway even if taboo here?


Don't use Google    or Chrome 
PS.  If a site is blocked, then any links within that site are inevitably blocked as well.  Have to take the rough with the smooth.


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## Nabsim (Dec 7, 2020)

Philip Tomlinson said:


> Yes, it is.


I couldn't see what the link went to Phil but when I did the google search it gave me motor-roam not a and n which is why I said it wasn't


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## Markd (Dec 7, 2020)

I have to own up to being a fan of that site with regard to control boxes, lead acid batteries and their chargers.
Most of the stuff is getting 'historic' as the author is now no longer with us and it's not being updated.
His campaign on battery life and the honesty of manufacturers and the 'accreditation' scheme did result in Alpha batteries publishing proper cycle lives - so we must thank him for that.


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## Phantom (Dec 7, 2020)

I properly tested my Vanbitz battery master today and it was kaput, so bought a Votronic one instead for half the price and it can send up to 3A to SB when on EHU or solar.


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