# Wild Camping...Talk to me!



## Hobbsy (Apr 6, 2011)

Well, you may of seen my other post asking for advice on a few wild camping spot locations! I hope I dont start a row by asking this question and im sure it has been sked a 1000 times and for that i am sorry, but, my question is: what are our legal rights about parking up at the roadside or on one of these wild camping spots identified on the data base? be it a council car park or main road, i would like to know what you guys tell the plod if they ask you to move on as i am led to beleive they cant do anything other than ask you to move on? I am particularly worried about having a drink when parked up somewhere on the side of the road also due to the facts that i might be considere4d drunk incharge of a vehicle??? whats your thoughts on this too! thanks in advance!


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## GeoNomad (Apr 6, 2011)

My experience is outside the UK, so I will leave that part to the others on this list.

In 400 nights of wild camping over the past 4 years, I have never once been asked to move on. Perhaps I have become complacent.

I was once approached by gendarmes in France, where I had been parked directly under a "No overnight parking" sign for several days, and was fearing that the moment had finally come, but it turned out they were looking for someone and asked me if I had seen anything suspicious. My parking was never discussed.

In Bulgaria, parked for several days in the parking lot of a ski area, the police checked me out with some hand waving and a few words of English and then, once they decided I looked harmless, told me to enjoy my stay. They didn't ask for ID or car papers.

I do try to keep a low profile and only stop in somewhat hidden places, as much because I would rather not see and hear the road as vice versa, so I would think that most nights nobody knew I was there.

I think it all comes down to common sense. Don't park where you are a nuisance. Don't do anything to make anyone unhappy about your presence. Should anyone ever ask you to move on, be gracious about it and move on.

Even if it is legal to park somewhere, and someone didn't like it, I would not want to have to argue about it, even if it turned out I was right.

I will be curious to see how it goes in the UK, as I will be there next week for a short stay, mostly in the southwest. I've only spent a few nights in the wilds of Britain on previous trips.

Peter 
Peter's Paragliding Nomadness


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## Kontiki (Apr 6, 2011)

The only time in all our years of wildcamping we have been asked to move was in Spain, this happened twice at locations nowhere near each other within a week or two. I would say we are probably more careful where we park in the UK so the occasion has never arisen. I never bother having any alcohol where ever we are wildcamping unless I am 100% sure there is no likelihood we might get asked to ove.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 6, 2011)

an answer to your first two questions ,one you wont cause a row and two dont be sorry  we are here to help . in all the time and places we have wild camped and we do nothing else ,we havent been asked to move on  by anyone , even the time we lived in our van .there is some debate on the legality of parking up but as i say we havent had any trouble with the law , as for a drink or two my advice is dont go overboard its not whilst you are parked for the night ,its next morning where the trouble will rear its ugly head  i know we and others have even had conversations with the police whilst parked in our vans on a car park whilest drinking a can or two ,they seem to understand that we have no intentions of driving so leave us alone . there is one car park not far from us ogmore by sea there are notices that state no overnight parking no camping and if you do you will be fined 50 quid but there is always one or two vans stay at weekends ,the police come and say your not realy supposed to stay here but if you have been drinking you will have to stay the night  so they are not bothered . also i have not heared of anyone being fined there .so i would say drink but dont go overboard   by the way no police officer will or can ask you to commit an offence as he will be breaking the law so if you have had a drink he cannot move you on .


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## Hobbsy (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks guys! I like to park out of the way a bit to, mainly as  i like the peace and quiet and i have two young kids, which is my main reason for not wanting to get moved on.

 Hey Mandrake, I go to ogmore alot, only live down the road in newport myself! do they park at the beach where the toilets are or somewhere else? I thought they locked the gates and kicked you out up there?


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## Deleted member 207 (Apr 7, 2011)

We were asked to move on by a parking warden in Cornwall a few years ago, after I had just lashed out and bought a ticket to park - it had the time it would expire printed as sometime the next morning. There was some huffing and puffing from both of us, but I told him I'd need an instant refund of whatever I'd paid and he backed down and stomped off to do whatever else he did - probably reprogramme the parking ticket machines. 

Someone gave some advice on here a few years ago - something like "I'm too tired to drive any further and ask to be given written instructions to drive whilst fatigued" - not too many jobs worths will give you anything in writing, especially if they open themselves to some sort of legal liability. 

When I was driving HGVs in the UK (1970s) it was common to require coppers to sign logbooks and print instructions if any were given - eg: "goto weighbridge at XXX". I'd assume that something similar is still possible without being declared an international terrorist.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 7, 2011)

Hobbsy said:


> Thanks guys! I like to park out of the way a bit to, mainly as  i like the peace and quiet and i have two young kids, which is my main reason for not wanting to get moved on.
> 
> Hey Mandrake, I go to ogmore alot, only live down the road in newport myself! do they park at the beach where the toilets are or somewhere else? I thought they locked the gates and kicked you out up there?


 
yes thats where we used to stay during the day a lot  its realy nice also down by the castle thats nice , but with the restrictions we never overnighted there although a few do  there are so many places to park for the night within a 5 mile radius of ogmore we used a different spot most nights  that its not worth the potential hassel but at the moment we aint going anyware untill i get the van on the road again cannot wait


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## donkey too (Apr 7, 2011)

I usually overnight at the rougvh car park on the right of the road leading to Ogmore. after the bridge which goes over the river. There is a house there, but never had any problems. A local once told me that a camper overnighting there deters the late night grope and chuck your mc d's/fish shop wrappers out the window lot, from stopping there. So it does some good.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 7, 2011)

donkey too said:


> I usually overnight at the rougvh car park on the right of the road leading to Ogmore. after the bridge which goes over the river. There is a house there, but never had any problems. A local once told me that a camper overnighting there deters the late night grope and chuck your mc d's/fish shop wrappers out the window lot, from stopping there. So it does some good.


 
ha ha we used that one too ,in fact that spot was the only time we had the police ask  if we were thinking of stopping the night and advised us not to according to the locals that house belongs to one of the local magistrates  ,they dident say we wernt allowed to though .  a couple of other places we have used to park overnight are opposit the car park we are talking about now ,is a road opposit that leads up to notton  we used to stay about 50yds up there on a flatish spot, there are also some vans tend to park on the area at the bottom of the road ,  also under the rail bridge at ewenny  the layby there , and also i dont know if you know the science park  that is on the way from bridgend and befor yo get to ewenny  there is a layby there we used that one too on quite a few occasions when we were in the bridgend area  we also used the leasure center car park in bridgend with by the way the ok from the manager of the parking dept of bridgend council  but i can get a bit noisy when the fire engines leave the station opposit. also if you go to merther maw you will have to excuse the place names as i cannot seem to understand the way they are  pronounced  down here in wales , there is a rough car park at the side of the river that is nice to park up in you can swim in the river there an there is a nice walk on the river banks  but i have never overnighted there


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## barryd (Apr 7, 2011)

Never been asked to move on and never worry about having a drink.  Have chatted to coppers in Scotland after 5 or 6 stellas.  They were just interested in the bike and van.

I dont stay in laybyes though or on busy roads, usually out of the way rural spots.

If Im drinking (and I might have 8 cans) I wont move the van the next day until at least lunchtime.

The only time somebody pointed out to me that there was no overnight parking was a local at Slapton Sands in Devon one January.  It did say no overnighting but we pulled in as night fell in a massive snow storm.  This guy wandered over the next day and very pleasantly pointed out that there was no overnight parking.  I couldnt believe it.  It was a massive car park right on the beach and we were the only vehicle on it!  I had even bought a ticket.


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 7, 2011)

The OP asked about the legality of Wild Camping.

The Public Health Act 1937 contains the definition that a Motorhome/Campervan is a Caravan. This Act still controls camping in tents or other structures. This definition of a caravan was carried over to the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

The 1960 Act requires the owner of land to hold a Caravan Sites licence and have Planning permission to station a caravan used for human habitation on land owned by him.  He is liable in law if he permits someone to occupy a Caravan for Human Habitation and he doesn't hold a site licence.  This is policed by the Local Planning Authority.

There are some limited exemptions one of which allows the landowner to have one caravan on his land for no more than 28 days in a year.  The caravan is only allowed to stay for a maximum of 2 nights.  If the holding is more than 5 acres then 3 caravans can occupy the land but the same 28 day rule applies.

Another is
Caravans used Used within cartilage of a dwelling house
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwelling house within the cartilage of which the land is situated.

Certain Clubs (about 10 now I believe) have powers to grant exemptions to landowner.  These sites do not need planning permission or a site licence. These sites are limited to 5 caravan.

The Police are not involved in this matter unless by parking you are causing an obstruction.

If you park on land without the owners permission this is trespass.  This is a civil matter and does not involve the Police.
If the landowner has asked you to move on and you have refused, he has to go to court to get an injunction to move you on.  The police would become involved If your refusal or his request was violent, or if there were 6 or more individuals or vehicles involved.

Local Authority land can have by-laws on it prohibiting the use by caravans or overnight stops.  These places will have a sign displayed and this should indicate under which by-law the prohibition apples.

Some land owners erect "No overnight Parking" or "NO Camping" signs as a means of defence if the local authority threatens action.  These signs have no legal standing.

I hope this answers your question.


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## John H (Apr 7, 2011)

Roger said:


> Someone gave some advice on here a few years ago - something like "I'm too tired to drive any further and ask to be given written instructions to drive whilst fatigued" - not too many jobs worths will give you anything in writing, especially if they open themselves to some sort of legal liability.


 
Excellent advice - and John Thompson has also given a good summary of the legal situation. As others have said, if you are sensible and considerate about where you park and are polite if the police call, then you are unlikely to run into many problems - either here or abroad. It is the confrontational types who get moved on. Remember, it is nearly always easy to find somewhere without a banning notice and away from those you might annoy. In ten years of virtually full-timing in Europe, we have been moved on only twice (once because we unwisely parked up alongside one of those "mobile cities" you see on the Mediterranean coast and which annoy the locals; and once in the car park of a cemetary and two local women objected to our presence - the local Mayor was very apologetic, told us to finish our dinner before we moved and gave us directions to where else we might park up!).


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## Hobbsy (Apr 7, 2011)

Thats awsome, thanks guys!


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## magbrin (Apr 7, 2011)

Our son has an old self build Transit (dark red) and in his time with it (since last September) he has been approached twice by the Plods - both times parked in the wilds of Scotland, once a few miles from Braemar and the other in Galloway.  Each time I think they thought the van was dodgy, but with "Dr" as his title on his driving licence, and climbing equipment in the garage they seemed to be easily pacified.  In the first case at least they (son & pals) had had a can or two, but it seems that as long as the keys are not in your pocket you are not "in charge" of your vehicle  So if you have a drink, hang your keys up, and don't have them on your person


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## matthew123 (Apr 7, 2011)

Still have not got to the letter of the law about having a beer in my van whilst overnighting. I appreciate all the comments and good luck to one and all but what if a jobsworth decided to go by the book. Would i be drink driving?l


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## vwalan (Apr 7, 2011)

hi. you cant be done for drink driving if parked in a proper way and remove the ign keys from the switch and dont sit in the drivers seat.drunk in charge is a different matter. but i think if the keys werent in your possession, say in a draw. it could be hard to prove for them. put a curtain between the cab and the living area it could help to divide driving and living areas. sat outside a cemetry now in northern spain ,had a big funeral earlier on . carpark became full. drinking a nice red wine now .no probs, soon be time for shut eye.


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## defitzi (Apr 7, 2011)

*moving on*



John H said:


> Excellent advice - and John Thompson has also given a good summary of the legal situation. As others have said, if you are sensible and considerate about where you park and are polite if the police call, then you are unlikely to run into many problems - either here or abroad. It is the confrontational types who get moved on. Remember, it is nearly always easy to find somewhere without a banning notice and away from those you might annoy. In ten years of virtually full-timing in Europe, we have been moved on only twice (once because we unwisely parked up alongside one of those "mobile cities" you see on the Mediterranean coast and which annoy the locals; and once in the car park of a cemetary and two local women objected to our presence - the local Mayor was very apologetic, told us to finish our dinner before we moved and gave us directions to where else we might park up!).


with more than fifty years wilding  I reckon that just about sums it up
The only place I've ever been   bothered was recently   in a 24 hr  park in Dorset ( I think). Pointed out I had paid and wanted my full whackl of hours  was told I was breaking the no overnight sleeping!!!!!  ah so but I said I'm an insommniac and go for walks, read book, watch tele all night sleep all day and wow  he went ape..... really whoopee. I sat  and laughed at him; said nothing more which sent him even further over he op threatening all kinds of retribution! He threatened to call the police -I nodded agreememt and said perhaps he should do just that ,which sent him into more furious paroxyms, until  I very politely asked did he actually work for the council and did he have identity papers, since he wore no uniform!
Turned out he did work for the council but was the driver of a dump truck clearing sand on the nearby beach-prom whatever....
Naturally enough , this discovery reduced me to helpless laughter which really infuriated him  and when i suggested he should return to his dumper and get on with his  task instead of taking time out to bother money spendintg foreign tourists,  he went ballistic!   
my 24 hours was near up by then so I got out slowly, went for a short stroll, returned and drove off as he went through the motions of taking my Republic of Ireland reg number at which I prodiced a French tricolour,and waved it,before driving very slowly slowly away. 
Jobsworth was still fuming last time i saw him in my rear mirror.
Only one or two cars used that car park in the time i was there-it was the depths of winter!


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## defitzi (Apr 7, 2011)

*in charge?*



vwalan said:


> hi. you cant be done for drink driving if parked in a proper way and remove the ign keys from the switch and dont sit in the drivers seat.drunk in charge is a different matter. but i think if the keys werent in your possession, say in a draw. it could be hard to prove for them. put a curtain between the cab and the living area it could help to divide driving and living areas. sat outside a cemetry now in northern spain ,had a big funeral earlier on . carpark became full. drinking a nice red wine now .no probs, soon be time for shut eye.


 
I should think few courts are unaware that campers-motorhomes are also living spaces. In my experfience it is rather unlikely such a prosecution involvingv a registered motorhome, would be approved by the CPS, or upheld by a court if it were senctioned and I doubt if an appeal would be rejected- unless there was evident someone was attempting to drive the vehicle......


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## matthew123 (Apr 7, 2011)

*jobsworth*

Thanks for that. Seems to be a common answer amongst this community. there is a busy carpark by me in the mumbles in swansea where regular overnighters do just as you have said. They have yet to be moved on after been spoken too numerous times by understanding policemen. Go fishing, have a beer , and bed down. No drama. The key word on previos disscusions about this is jobsworth. Thanks for your time and safe trip home.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 7, 2011)

would you sit in your front room at home and have a drink ,the answer i think is yes with a car or van on the drive .if you have your keys on your person you can be charged with being drunk in charge easy   same thing with a m/h  have a drink parked up dont have the keys on you, you will be ok  the same law extends to a camp site, i have sat with some friends on a public car park drinking  cans of beer and been talking to two traffic cops when they have pulled up to pass the time of day and they seem more intrested with the vans than anything we were drinking  in fact one of the cops said he was realy intrested when he found out about the ease of  parking up free in a van he towed a wobble box and was moaning at campsite fees


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 8, 2011)

matthew123 said:


> Thanks for that. Seems to be a common answer amongst this community. there is a busy carpark by me in the mumbles in swansea where regular overnighters do just as you have said. They have yet to be moved on after been spoken too numerous times by understanding policemen. Go fishing, have a beer , and bed down. No drama. The key word on previos disscusions about this is jobsworth. Thanks for your time and safe trip home.


 
more than likely i would have been there with a few of my mates in there vans  most weekends   you will find its knab rock  one of our regular places somtimes we have stayed there all week no bother .just a tip park on the road opposit  during the day for free ok there are double yellows there but no one bothers then into the car park after seven its free overnight till seven next morn  if you do sleep in the parking attendent will give you a knock instead of booking you .  havent been there since last june  but i wonder if ian is still in his merc van according to form he has lived in vans for about 10 years allways in the same spot on the side of the road


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## John H (Apr 8, 2011)

I echo the previous advice and add that a friend of mine is a retired traffic cop (also a motorhomer) and he has always said that the police are just not interested in prosecuting anybody for drinking in their vans if they are clearly parked and there is no intention to move. As others have said, the CPS would probably not proceed anyway and if they did, the courts would probably be less than interested. Over the years, we have spoken to several policemen while wildcamped and drinking and not one has ever mentioned the drink (but don't offer them one or they might get you for attempted bribery!). So go ahead, enjoy your drink and keep the keys on the hook!


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## Hobbsy (Apr 9, 2011)

awsome, thats good enough for me!


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## barryd (Apr 9, 2011)

I think they have to prove intent to drive and unless your sat in the drivers seat with the engine running its unlikely that they could ever do this.  As Mandrake says in theory you could be done in any public place be it a pub car park, layby, CL or campsite if they think your going to drive.  Wont happen though.

Enjoy your beer!


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## AndyC (Apr 9, 2011)

barryd said:


> I think they have to prove intent to drive and unless your sat in the drivers seat with the engine running its unlikely that they could ever do this.


Actually this is one of the few areas of UK law where the onus is in the accused to prove their innocence.

The phrase usually quoted is: _"It is a defence for a person charged with this offence  to demonstrate from the evidence an arguable case that at the time he  was alleged to have committed the offence, the circumstances were such  that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle while the  proportion of alcohol in his breath blood or urine remained likely to  exceed the prescribed limit."_

AndyC


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## barryd (Apr 9, 2011)

AndyC said:


> Actually this is one of the few areas of UK law where the onus is in the accused to prove their innocence.
> 
> The phrase usually quoted is: _"It is a defence for a person charged with this offence  to demonstrate from the evidence an arguable case that at the time he  was alleged to have committed the offence, the circumstances were such  that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle while the  proportion of alcohol in his breath blood or urine remained likely to  exceed the prescribed limit."_
> 
> AndyC


 
I think it was a copper on FACTS that told me that.  Perhaps I miss quoted him.  Its academic anyhow as your simply not going to get done, just like your never going to get gassed or hacked to death by the wildcamping Axe murderer!


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## AndyC (Apr 9, 2011)

barryd said:


> Its academic anyhow as your simply not going to get done, just like your never going to get gassed or hacked to death by the wildcamping Axe murderer!


I agree with that, it seems to be pretty generally accepted that if you are parked up for the night in a motorhome, you won't get arrested for drunk in charge, providing you're not causing an obstruction or other problem, and the keys aren't in the ignition.

Having said that, I don't have a drink if we are wild camping somewhere that I don't know, just in case we have to move. Hasn't happened yet but you never know.

AndyC


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## Hobbsy (Apr 11, 2011)

This was my worry, but then again my wife drives and its doubtfull we would both have a drink but then saying that, if they cant really move you on then i suppose theres no problem anyway!, cheers!


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## Firefox (Apr 12, 2011)

Re: Drunk in charge. It doesn't matter where the keys are, You can hide them in the wardrobe, give them to the wife, or have them in your pocket it's all the same thing - you still have access to them. (But not having them in the ignition would be a good start!)

You have to prove you have no intention of moving off till you are in a fit state. This is best done by swiveling the driving seats away from the controls, laying tables, and making beds etc. The keys are just a red herring, often heard quoted about by that smart man in the pub, and not usually in reference to a vehicle equipped for overnight use like a camping vehicle.


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## John H (Apr 12, 2011)

Firefox said:


> Re: Drunk in charge. It doesn't matter where the keys are, You can hide them in the wardrobe, give them to the wife, or have them in your pocket it's all the same thing - you still have access to them. (But not having them in the ignition would be a good start!)
> 
> You have to prove you have no intention of moving off till you are in a fit state. This is best done by swiveling the driving seats away from the controls, laying tables, and making beds etc. The keys are just a red herring, often heard quoted about by that smart man in the pub, and not usually in reference to a vehicle equipped for overnight use like a camping vehicle.


 
Technically your first paragraph is correct. Your second paragraph, however, will make absolutely no difference - it doesn't matter which way the seats are facing or whether the table is laid. However, I go back to what my retired traffic cop friend told me - that the police are not interested in prosecuting, the CPS would be even less interested and the courts (if it got that far) would consider it a waste of public funds. Our own experience with the police in various countries backs this up and I have never met or heard of anyone who has been prosecuted. Unless anyone out there knows of someone who has been done for being drunk in charge of a motorhome on a wildcamp then I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## joncris (Apr 12, 2011)

If it were true EVERY MH camper, caravan owner on EVERY camping site (wild or not) would be liable to being prosecuted for being "in charge' whilst over the limit


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## bigpieeater (Apr 12, 2011)

John H said:


> I echo the previous advice and add that a friend of mine is a retired traffic cop (also a motorhomer) and he has always said that the police are just not interested in prosecuting anybody for drinking in their vans if they are clearly parked and there is no intention to move. As others have said, the CPS would probably not proceed anyway and if they did, the courts would probably be less than interested. Over the years, we have spoken to several policemen while wildcamped and drinking and not one has ever mentioned the drink (but don't offer them one or they might get you for attempted bribery!). So go ahead, enjoy your drink and keep the keys on the hook!


...But don't forget, when the law nicks you, tell them that JOHN H said it is ok to drink whilst in charge of a vehicle!!

What utter nonsense...being in charge of a vehicle AND drunk (or over the limit) is still an offence. Don't risk it.

Take a look at this....

In charge of a vehicle with excess alcohol or while unfit

A possible 10 points and £5000 fine, it is information like JOHN H has given that puts you at risk. I understand that SOME Plods MAY turn a blind eye, but that is no defence in court.
So thanks JOHN H but I'd rather you stick to telling us all what you think about the price of Diesel!!


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## vwalan (Apr 12, 2011)

if you have the keys to avehicle or even have a vehicle registered to your name and are drunk are you not drunk in charge?we need to be resonable i can sit in my trailr as i am now but its very obvious i,m not going to drive . if i do then its drunken driving. even sat in your house you are in charge of the vehicle.


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## bigpieeater (Apr 12, 2011)

mandrake said:


> an answer to your first two questions ,one you wont cause a row and two dont be sorry  we are here to help . in all the time and places we have wild camped and we do nothing else ,we havent been asked to move on  by anyone , even the time we lived in our van .there is some debate on the legality of parking up but as i say we havent had any trouble with the law , as for a drink or two my advice is dont go overboard its not whilst you are parked for the night ,its next morning where the trouble will rear its ugly head  i know we and others have even had conversations with the police whilst parked in our vans on a car park whilest drinking a can or two ,they seem to understand that we have no intentions of driving so leave us alone . there is one car park not far from us ogmore by sea there are notices that state no overnight parking no camping and if you do you will be fined 50 quid but there is always one or two vans stay at weekends ,the police come and say your not realy supposed to stay here but if you have been drinking you will have to stay the night  so they are not bothered . also i have not heared of anyone being fined there .so i would say drink but dont go overboard   by the way no police officer will or can ask you to commit an offence as he will be breaking the law so if you have had a drink he cannot move you on .


 ......but he CAN do you for being drunk in charge with up to 10 points and £5000 fine.
Come on, if we are  going to try and advise people, let's at least check out the law first.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 12, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> ...But don't forget, when the law nicks you, tell them that JOHN H said it is ok to drink whilst in charge of a vehicle!!
> 
> What utter nonsense...being in charge of a vehicle AND drunk (or over the limit) is still an offence. Don't risk it.
> 
> ...


 
you cannot just put the blame on john we all say basicaly the same .and come on lets see who can honestly stand up and say honestly that they have never had a day out and had a tipple with our vans or cars and driven  or gone to work next morn with a hangover  ,i will  accept non drinkers and puritains to answer that they  havent. ps the term p.c plod realy means a foot patrol officer they wont give you a breath test as they dont carry a breath test kit ,or very very few do ,its the mobile patrols that carry them and they have other nicknames of course pc plod may call a mobile unit to attend if he thinks there is a need but then again we could win the lottery tommorow and then we can get off our heads with booze  cos we would have james to drive us .....home james hic hic


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 12, 2011)

barryd said:


> I think it was a copper on FACTS that told me that.  Perhaps I miss quoted him.  Its academic anyhow as your simply not going to get done, just like your never going to get gassed or hacked to death by the wildcamping Axe murderer!


 
dont know about the axe bit but if you did suffer the axe man you may end up in a big pie


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## vwalan (Apr 12, 2011)

police dont do you. you have to be taken to court first. cps arent daft and very often use their brain.(some times not i will say).but even then you can give a good reason to your innocence and if you lose appeal , appeal . and still appeal.go to the crown courts if required .


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 12, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> ......but he CAN do you for being drunk in charge with up to 10 points and £5000 fine.
> Come on, if we are  going to try and advise people, let's at least check out the law first.


 
i used to be in the west yorkshire force , and yes there is a chance of an arrest but a very very small one .but then there is even less of a chance of being prostiquted in court  as has been said over and over  and over again yawn ,the police have more on there mind to bother with us taking a gless or two  its next morning you need to wurri about  ps sorry about the spelin


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## bigpieeater (Apr 12, 2011)

mandrake said:


> i used to be in the west yorkshire force , and yes there is a chance of an arrest but a very very small one .but then there is even less of a chance of being prostiquted in court  as has been said over and over  and over again yawn ,the police have more on there mind to bother with us taking a gless or two  its next morning you need to wurri about  ps sorry about the spelin



So....after all the debate, we appear to agree that, if you have had one too many AND sat in your vehicle (rather than in your home!) you are in charge of the vehicle and CAN be done.
So I would say, it is probably best not to drink and be in charge of your vehicle whilst on Public property, do what the hell you want on PRIVATE property.


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## joncris (Apr 12, 2011)

The same drink drive laws apply on private property IF the public have access


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 13, 2011)

i think the debate is about the real chance of being charged and convicted of a section 5(1) (B) of the road traffic act 1988 i think its comes under(no doubt if i am wrong i will be informed) as long as we act in a responsable manner dont get that pissed that we cause so much noise and mahem, that we commit an offence of being drunk and disorderly in a public place and not in a dwelling house .that is section 5 of section 9 1 c.j.a 1967 to cause a police officer to be so pissed of with us that he just might  chance his arm at getting a conviction  i would say we dont have anything realy to worry about i have sat chatting to police officers with a drink many a time ,they know we dont intend to drive


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## bigpieeater (Apr 13, 2011)

mandrake said:


> i think the debate is about the real chance of being charged and convicted of a section 5(1) (B) of the road traffic act 1988 i think its comes under(no doubt if i am wrong i will be informed) as long as we act in a responsable manner dont get that pissed that we cause so much noise and mahem, that we commit an offence of being drunk and disorderly in a public place and not in a dwelling house .that is section 5 of section 9 c.j.a 1967 to cause a police officer to be so pissed of with us that he just might  chance his arm at getting a conviction  i would say we dont have anything realy to worry about i have sat chatting to police officers with a drink many a time ,they know we dont intend to drive


The trouble with all us 'armchair Judges' is, we don't really know who is the good cop and who is the one who is looking to 'top up' his numbers for the month.
At the end of the day, being in charge of a vehicle whilst over the limit, is still illegal.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 13, 2011)

we all take our chance with everthing in life . life is a big risk assesment  we  live our lives on chance and life would be so dull without it  .so we just give our oppinions on a chance of a certain thing .we dont tell any one to go out and drink and you have no chance of gettin nicked  ,its just i have never heared of any body facing a court case for drunk in charge of a motor home.mind you  i must admit i was once threaten with being charged with being drunk in charge of a pedal cycle after i fell of it once or twice, by a police officer that happend to have watched my drunken antics, unless i pushed it home. i bid my thanks and goodnight  to the oshifer hic and as far as i can recall promptly tripped over the said bike that i must have layed down on the floor  he he hic hic  but that is another story from a while back .


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## John H (Apr 13, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> ...... do what the hell you want on PRIVATE property.


 
Well, hello again! Since you are intent on an argument, this is wrong. If you are in possession of the keys and you are in charge of the vehicle on private land to which the public have access (eg pub car park, caravan site) then you are still technically liable to prosecution. As many, including me, have said above it is a technical offence but the reason no-one in authority is interested is because they would have to prove intent to drive and in a motorhome it would be easy to argue that you had no such intention. This is why no case that I have ever heard of has come to court - unless you know different...........


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## bopper (Apr 13, 2011)

I have wildcamped for many years and have been asked to move on only twice. Once at the time I had a 32 foot American RV and was sat in the car park of the "Foxton Locks" in Leicestershire when the parking man came by at around 7pm. "You will have to go" he said, "I am about to lock the gate". I asked him if it was ok if I stayed the night and wouldn't worry about the gate being locked until next morning when he opened up. I told him he looked very thirsty and perhaps he could do with a drink or two. I told him I would make no mess and would leave the spot exactly as I had found it. He accepted that, and a nice night was had by all. Next morning an early dog walk down the canal and then gone. Perfect!  However; and this is perfectly true. One night in Oxfordshire, somewhere near Witney I believe, I had been driving most of the day and left it a little late to find a wildsite... I suddenly spotted a huge vacant spot of well worn earth, off road beside the entrance to a farmers field. I carefully parked up, not blocking the access etc; I had a Talbot then. After setting out the interior for dinner and tuning in the TV I suddenly heard a tremendous thump on the side of the van. I went out very quickly and was greeted by a purple faced ranting farmer with a shotgun.... yes, with a shotgun who threated to shoot out my tyres if I did'nt f**k off quick. I told him that if he did that he would set off two actions, one he would be arrested for threatening me with a firearm and two, if my tyres were shot up I couldn't go anyway. Whilst he was shouting and ranting I calmly got into the driving seat and drove off.  I incidentaly, agree that no police officer would charge you with drink driving if you were in the living area of the van and the keys were not in the ignition or on my person.


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## jenks (Apr 13, 2011)

I used to "wild" camp in the centre of newport! Go out on a Saturday night get mildly drunk then sleep in the back of my van at the time this was a Citroen C15. I parked on the main road outside the offices where I worked and left the ignition and door keys there, so I was only carrying the back door key with no access to the front to drive etc. Whilst climbing into the back a local patrol car stopped and asked what I was doing i explained that taxi fee's home were extortionate so I was staying in the van, and it meant I was in town for some shopping on the saturday morning, I explained I had a loo and was self sufficient and tried to assure them I'd leave no mess. I showed them that none of the keys on me would do anything except unlock the rear door.

There words were "we can book you even if you are sleeping and don't drive it".

They gave me two options, drunk in charge of a vehicle and sleep just round the corner in a cell and they'd impound the van or walk home and collect the van the next day.

I chose to walk home  when I returned for the van the following evening another patrol car appeared from no-where and gave me another talking to. 

Since then I am very careful about where i park up if I am going to have more than a couple of beers, ultimately if I am in a nice place and find a nice pub that serves delicous ales I'll find a campsite and park up then walk.


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## bigpieeater (Apr 13, 2011)

John H said:


> Well, hello again! Since you are intent on an argument, this is wrong. If you are in possession of the keys and you are in charge of the vehicle on private land to which the public have access (eg pub car park, caravan site) then you are still technically liable to prosecution. As many, including me, have said above it is a technical offence but the reason no-one in authority is interested is because they would have to prove intent to drive and in a motorhome it would be easy to argue that you had no such intention. This is why no case that I have ever heard of has come to court - unless you know different...........


No intention of arguing with you, just simply pointing out the law...that's all smart A*s


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## John H (Apr 14, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> No intention of arguing with you, just simply pointing out the law...that's all smart A*s


 
If you are going to point out the law, then next time make sure you get it right!


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## joncris (Apr 14, 2011)

Within the last few years a landowner allowed a gymkana to take place (as he did each year) had a few bevvies then drove across his land to his home the local plod who were policing the event stopped him & charged him with DUI & although his counsel argued he was on his own land he was still convicted as on the day in question the public had access to his land


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 14, 2011)

that is quite understandable .as there was a chance he could have killed some inocent member of the public  at the horse show


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## John H (Apr 14, 2011)

Absolutely right - anyone who drinks and drives deserves to be prosecuted - but it is a very different situation from the original point about drinking in a parked motorhome when there is no intention to drive.


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 14, 2011)

I have always valued my licence, so at 21 when I got a PSV, I vowed no alcohol within 24 hours of driving.  As a result no drinking as I drove every day (my own business).

I got stopped one night with a tail light bulb blown.  PC asked to breathalyse.  He then asked how long since you had a drink and when I said " A year gone Christmas" he gave me a funny look.  Of course the test was clear.  I replaced the bulb there and then and we both parted company satisfied with the outcome.

I am now retired but I still stick to my declaration made all those years back.


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## bigpieeater (Apr 14, 2011)

John H said:


> If you are going to point out the law, then next time make sure you get it right!


 
Like you did you mean!!!


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## John H (Apr 15, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Like you did you mean!!!


 
Yes! Next time you want to have a go at me, at least read what I have written before crtiticising it.


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## tony (Apr 15, 2011)

John H said:


> Yes! Next time you want to have a go at me, at least read what I have written before crtiticising it.



steady on there lads.
please no arguing or disagreements please.

tony


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## Firefox (Apr 15, 2011)

There has been a test case where the defendant proved to the satisfaction of the court although he was in charge there was no likelihood of him driving. 

So yes, this does form a valid defence to being in a motorhome with access to the keys while over the limit. I can't be bothered to look up the details of the case now as it has been posted and discussed a million times before, but Google the subject and you'll likely find a link. 

There is also discussion by serving police officers on police forums which draw the same conclusions. In my mind, beds made, table laid and seats swiveled away from the controls, with the vehicle in no state to drive, would form part of that defence.

You can all do what you like in your own motorhomes. Sit in the drivers seat with the engine running, waving and honking the horn at passing police cars for all I care 

But seats swivelled and in bed, if poss, is what I'm doing in mine, having studied the extensive evidence on the web and elsewhere.


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## Marcs (Apr 15, 2011)

A friend of mine was banned (she already had 6 points) for "totting up" getting 6 points switching on the engine of her escort cabriolet to close its electric roof while over the drink drive limit, she hadnt even sat in the car and it was on her drive! - luck of the draw I guess.


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## Firefox (Apr 16, 2011)

Sounds a bit harsh, as your own drive isn't my definition of a public place. 

Strange that she had to start the engine to close the roof though. It's the kind of thing that would arouse suspicion maybe?


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## matthew123 (Apr 16, 2011)

*Knab Rock*



mandrake said:


> more than likely i would have been there with a few of my mates in there vans  most weekends   you will find its knab rock  one of our regular places somtimes we have stayed there all week no bother .just a tip park on the road opposit  during the day for free ok there are double yellows there but no one bothers then into the car park after seven its free overnight till seven next morn  if you do sleep in the parking attendent will give you a knock instead of booking you .  havent been there since last june  but i wonder if ian is still in his merc van according to form he has lived in vans for about 10 years allways in the same spot on the side of the road


 
Sorry i am late getting back to you .Spent the last few weeks visiting Knab Rock with the usual visistors still enjoying fishing and socialising.Spoke to a young man in charge of the car park who said he was quite happy with situation. The people in question caused no problems and are very polite in the way they conduct themselves. As said earlier no dramas. There have been a few complaints from the locals (dont forget this is the Mumbles) who have thought the behaviour inappropiate. It may only take one of these miseries with influence to spoil the party. I love my van and like most people enjoy beer. As mentioned in an earleir thread i recently spent the night in Brecon and even though there had good reports of the Prominade and  Wotton car park in Brecon I tucked myself away in the middle of nowhere.The advice i have been given by yourself and others is common sense. Low key. Stay off the main roads. The letter of the law still applies. Draw attention to yourself and expect attention. Easy bird!


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## bigpieeater (Apr 18, 2011)

tony said:


> steady on there lads.
> please no arguing or disagreements please.
> 
> tony


It is the same with EVERY post Tony, I am afraid there is a JOHN H on every site/forum.
Sadly, he does not appear to be a judge or Lawyer, in fact he is an ex teacher, but appears to know everything...about everything!!


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## John H (Apr 18, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> ...... in fact he is an ex teacher, but appears to know everything...about everything!!


 
Another example of you not reading what I write - I have frequently said I can't understand you!

By the way, the comment from Tony was in the plural, so you didn't read his post correctly either (sorry, Tony, I'll try not to squabble too much but bigpieeater seems to have developed a groupie-type obsession with me that it would be rude to ignore!).


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## bigpieeater (Apr 18, 2011)

John H said:


> Another example of you not reading what I write - I have frequently said I can't understand you!
> 
> By the way, the comment from Tony was in the plural, so you didn't read his post correctly either (sorry, Tony, I'll try not to squabble too much but bigpieeater seems to have developed a groupie-type obsession with me that it would be rude to ignore!).


Please allow me to try and help you...now, what is it that you can't understand old man?
Please do not flatter yourself, I do not have ANY obsession with you, I think you are very strange and you do not make much sense in your postings, it may be just your age and we should all try and make an allowance for this when reading your rather odd ramblings. 
I hope this message makes sense to you, if you have any problems understanding any of it I will only be too please to try and help you.


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## John H (Apr 19, 2011)

In view of the attempt to muddy the waters, I thought it might be useful to the OP for me to summarise what I have said in reply to his original question:

First, there is no doubt that he would be in TECHNICAL breach of the law and this would be true whether he was wildcamping or on a camp site. It would also be true whichever way the front seats were facing, whether there was food on the table or whether or not the bed was made up. 

However, there is very little risk of prosecution because of the need to prove INTENT. In the case of the driver prosecuted on his own drive, the engine was on and any passing police officer might think he had a reasonable chance of showing intent to drive. But in a motorhome, unless you are sitting in the driving seat with the keys in your hand, it is much more difficult to prove. I have referred previously to the advice given by my retired traffic cop friend (backed up by several other converstions with the police). And even if the police decide to take it further, it is unlikely that the CPS would follow through. But if they do, then it has to be proved in court and several lawyer friends have all agreed that this would be extremely difficult. My wife agrees (before retiring, she was a partner in a large firm of solicitors).  

All of which is perhaps the reason why neither I nor anybody else I have spoken to can think of a single succesful prosecution. I have asked previously whether anybody here knows of such a prosecution and so far nobody has come forward. 

In short, everything involves a risk and we all have to make up our own minds about whether that risk is worth taking. I usually open a bottle of vino tinto most nights, whether wilding or on a site, and have never had a hint of trouble from the police. If you choose not to, then fine but if you fancy a drink I wouldn't lose too much sleep about prosecution - unless you are one of those stroppy buggers who shout their "rights" at the police and thus give them the incentive to find something to charge you with (and they usually can find something if they want to!).


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## joncris (Apr 19, 2011)

John H said:


> In view of the attempt to muddy the waters, I thought it might be useful to the OP for me to summarise what I have said in reply to his original question:
> 
> First, there is no doubt that he would be in TECHNICAL breach of the law and this would be true whether he was wildcamping or on a camp site. It would also be true whichever way the front seats were facing, whether there was food on the table or whether or not the bed was made up.
> 
> ...


 

Quite


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## Deleted member 3802 (Apr 19, 2011)

i couldn't agree more :idea-007: BUT i know a man won't c:


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 19, 2011)

lets all try to guess who you mean :lol-049::cheers: hey i lurrrrrrv these new smiles well done phill:beer:


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## coolasluck (Apr 19, 2011)

I got banned from drink driving about 16 years ago,i had not past my test at the time,but when i had passed my test i had my license drop on the mat one day and then had to send it back for a years ban the next.!
I am not one for drinking at all really these days,i can take it or leave it,if i wild for the night i may have a maximum of 2 drinks and thats it but will at the same time make sure that the van is parked up in a good location first.
The differance is that i used to drink to get pissed but as i grew older and wiser i now drink to relax and chill and now dont need to get slaughtered and spend the night in the police cells.:rolleyes2:


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## TrevorandRachel (Apr 19, 2011)

*Drink Driving or not!!*

I suppose that`s one good thing about getting older hopefully we get a little wiser ! & the police are less likely to lock us up Aren`t they ???


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## maingate (Apr 19, 2011)

That coolasluck drank like a fish when I met him at Tintern Abbey last year. Mortal he was and kept us awake all night singing 'Danny Boy'.

:idea-007: It would be nice to meet up with some more normal members this year (I said 'normal', bigpieeater.


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## coolasluck (Apr 19, 2011)

You cheeky old git Maingate

Just because you couldnt handle the drink,vomiting all over the car park and dogs off the lead urinating and making a general nuisance of themselves:banana:

We did try to stay over at the tintern car park again but got refused as the locals had made complaints to the local police.

Oh well another one to scrub off the POI database


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## bigpieeater (Apr 19, 2011)

maingate said:


> That coolasluck drank like a fish when I met him at Tintern Abbey last year. Mortal he was and kept us awake all night singing 'Danny Boy'.
> 
> :idea-007: It would be nice to meet up with some more normal members this year (I said 'normal', bigpieeater.


I would love to meet up, imagine the atmosphere with me and JOHN H:scared:....what a laugh:lol-053:


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## barryd (Apr 20, 2011)

maingate said:


> :idea-007: It would be nice to meet up with some more normal members this year (I said 'normal', bigpieeater.



Are there any?

Hope you dont consider me normal!


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## joncris (Apr 20, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> I would love to meet up, imagine the atmosphere with me and JOHN H:scared:....what a laugh:lol-053:



Canna sell tickets:lol-049:


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## rach-chavette (Apr 20, 2011)

Hey Hobbsy  look forward to wilding with you this summer mate :banana::wacko:


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## bigpieeater (Apr 20, 2011)

joncris said:


> Canna sell tickets:lol-049:


 
Good idea, I am sure there will be plenty of buyers!!:raofl:


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## Mad Manx (Apr 21, 2011)

this old chestnut came about many many years ago when i used to drive long distance lorries.
the police of the time started trying to prosecute truck drivers for being drunk in charge when sleeping in their sleeper cabs in lay-bys.
If i remember correct because the keys were not in the ignition and the vehicle was classed as their sleeping accommodation and they were parked up with a tachco saying they were on rest period it could be proved that their was no intention to drive so the cases were thrown out.
but having done a quick inter net thingy search iv'e found this 

Drink Driving but not actually driving - PoliceSpecials.com Forum
seems they are as confused as us 
i keep a lock box that i lock keys in on the out side of the vehicle


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## joncris (Apr 21, 2011)

Mad Manx said:


> this old chestnut came about many many years ago when i used to drive long distance lorries.
> the police of the time started trying to prosecute truck drivers for being drunk in charge when sleeping in their sleeper cabs in lay-bys.
> If i remember correct because the keys were not in the ignition and the vehicle was classed as their sleeping accommodation and they were parked up with a tachco saying they were on rest period it could be proved that their was no intention to drive so the cases were thrown out.
> but having done a quick inter net thingy search iv'e found this
> ...



My Gawd have they nothing better to do but think of ways to hastle innocent MH Owners


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## coolasluck (Apr 21, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> I would love to meet up, imagine the atmosphere with me and JOHN H:scared:....what a laugh:lol-053:


 

I dont believe the big H would turn up.

I think he would be scared to attend.Got to say though if the two of you attended the meet i would buy a couple of tickets.Would be nice to see what people are really like in the cold light of day:lol-053:

I imagine John to be about 4 foot 8,sporting a long flowing grey beard,who is always seen with a pipe sticking out of his mouth.He probably stinks as well(of piped tobbacco i mean)!


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## John H (Apr 21, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Good idea, I am sure there will be plenty of buyers!!:raofl:


 
Well, I wouldn't buy one so I can't imagine anybody else parting with good cash. You may think shouting insults at people is a crowd-puller but I think you'd be the only one.


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## John H (Apr 21, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> I dont believe the big H would turn up.
> 
> I think he would be scared to attend.Got to say though if the two of you attended the meet i would buy a couple of tickets.Would be nice to see what people are really like in the cold light of day:lol-053:
> 
> I imagine John to be about 4 foot 8,sporting a long flowing grey beard,who is always seen with a pipe sticking out of his mouth.He probably stinks as well(of piped tobbacco i mean)!


 
So there would be one sale then! But your picture of me is about as accurate as bigpieeater's - and what is piped tobacco?


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## coolasluck (Apr 21, 2011)

John H said:


> So there would be one sale then! But your picture of me is about as accurate as bigpieeater's - and what is piped tobacco?


 

Tobacco that you smoke with a pipe Johnny:hammer:

YES !! I would buy a ticket,so come on John complete the picture for me:cheers:


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## matthew123 (Apr 21, 2011)

*Mandrake. Knab Rock*

My apologies .In response to your question about Ian in the Merc, the big van in question is still doing the rounds in the Mumbles. I passed  it tonight parked up in Bracelet Bay. I dont know the chap personally but he appears well known and is left alone to do his thing. Seems to spend a few days in one spot then moves on. Happy days  No harm done.


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## bigpieeater (Apr 21, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> Tobacco that you smoke with a pipe Johnny:hammer:
> 
> YES !! I would buy a ticket,so come on John complete the picture for me:cheers:


WOOOOO-OOOOW Coolasluck...you come to the party on me, you don't need to buy a ticket.:wacko:


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## bigpieeater (Apr 21, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> I dont believe the big H would turn up.
> 
> I think he would be scared to attend.Got to say though if the two of you attended the meet i would buy a couple of tickets.Would be nice to see what people are really like in the cold light of day:lol-053:
> 
> I imagine John to be about 4 foot 8,sporting a long flowing grey beard,who is always seen with a pipe sticking out of his mouth.He probably stinks as well(of piped tobbacco i mean)!


Just weed my self laughing:raofl:


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## bigpieeater (Apr 21, 2011)

John H said:


> Well, I wouldn't buy one so I can't imagine anybody else parting with good cash. You may think shouting insults at people is a crowd-puller but I think you'd be the only one.


There is always one to p*ss on the fire
Oh, by the way, what insults? I am simply having my say... exercising my democratic rights you might say.

I had a teacher at school who was about 4'8", grey beard and smoked a pipe...wasn't you was it JOHN H? 
Second thoughts, no, he was ok, yeah, thinking about it, definitely not you.


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## John H (Apr 22, 2011)

bigpieeater said:


> Oh, by the way, what insults? I am simply having my say... exercising my democratic rights you might say.


 
We are coming dangerously near to something we can agree on here - my views on free speech are well-documented on this site. Over 40% of all your posts on here have been devoted to attempted insults directed towards me (I am flattered) and I defend your right to make yourself look foolish. If there are idiots around, I think it much more important that we let them expose themselves rather than delete them or ban them. 

By the way, I am actually seven foot tall, green, made my fortune by installing piped tobacco in lifts and am invisible to anyone with an IQ smaller than their shoe size - so you will probably never see me.


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## Deleted member 775 (Apr 22, 2011)

matthew123 said:


> My apologies .In response to your question about Ian in the Merc, the big van in question is still doing the rounds in the Mumbles. I passed  it tonight parked up in Bracelet Bay. I dont know the chap personally but he appears well known and is left alone to do his thing. Seems to spend a few days in one spot then moves on. Happy days  No harm done.


 thanks for that ,he is a nice guy keeps himself to himself but we always passed the time of day .will catch up with him some time . we used to spend a few days at a time there  no one bothers you ,they let you do your own thing nice place mumbles


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