# Incident at C&MC site Culloden Moor



## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

On the 4 August the warden at Culloden Moor campsite closed the toilet facilities for almost 24 hours.
I wrote to the club to complain and yesterday I received this email.
I have also posted my reply posted tonight.
Generally speaking I have been pleased with my stays at their campsites, but what happened here was simply not on.
I am doing this to give you all a heads up in case this happens to you.
And I intend to be extremely persistent on this matter.
There are principles at stake here that I reckon are very important to us all.

Dear Mr 

Please accept our apologies for the delay getting back to you. We’re receiving enormous levels of correspondence at the moment and to ensure we manage this fairly, we’re investigating and responding to members in order of receiving their feedback.

We’re sorry to hear that you were disappointed in the way a situation on site at Culloden Moor unfolded. We received a number of emails about this temporary closure of the toilet block which was necessary 4-5 August. Some members were unhappy with the way this was handled by the site staff, while others were supportive and complimentary as they understood the team there were dealing with a difficult situation which had arisen due to the behaviour of some members/guests on site.

Having discussed the options with their Regional Manager, the Head of Sites Operations agreed that closure was the only way forward in these very difficult circumstances. At that point the following statement was made available for site staff, contact centre agents and posted on Club social media feeds.

_Tuesday 4th August - Due to guests forcing entry into facilities which we had closed to maintain social distancing, in accordance with our COVID secure guidelines, we have taken the difficult decision to close the toilet block at Culloden Moor until tomorrow. We have taken this unusual step to ensure the safety of all guests and site staff, and we apologise to members currently on site for the closure._

We’re also sorry that you felt that general maintenance and grass cutting was not up to usual Club standards. In their defence I know sites teams across the country prioritised all the new deep cleaning and other measures necessary to comply with the Government guidelines and the Club’s Covid Secure commitment, and in some instances it took them some time to catch up with more routine maintenance. Coupled with the fact that our sites network is operating at record levels currently, I know they have been working hard to keep members and guests happy and safe.

Thank you very much for taking the time to contact us, and we hope you enjoy many more stays on the sites network in the coming weeks.

Kind regards

my reply 

Hi 

Many thanks for your reply.

I am sorry to read the contents of your email which fail to answer some of the salient points raised in my initial email.

First and foremost I discussed this with several campers and not one of them was happy with what happened. As a matter of fact some were threatening to leave the caravan and Motorhome club because of how this was dealt with. Sorry but I simply cannot agree that this action was either appropriate or proportional under the circumstances. Also I find it difficult to believe that this happened in both the ladies and the gents toilets. And therefore wonder why this punishment was deemed appropriate for both sexes. Also you claim that this was done for our safety. I find that comment surprising. With only the disabled toilet left available this meant that this facility would be in great demand, and being used by many more than would have been normal, increasing the chance that Covid would spread within the campsite. Also there were disabled campers there, this could have made things less safe and more difficult for them. When leaving next morning I witnessed large queues of people waiting for access to the toilet block, further increasing the chances of spreading Covid.

You also failed to mention the reply I received from the warden when simply asking what had transpired, and why I was being refused access to facilities that I and others had paid for. His response was rude and offensive, I had every right to ask what was going on. The fact remains that approximately 200 people who had paid for the use of toilet facilities were denied access due to the actions of what appears to have been one stupid individual. And it’s even possible that the culprit had left the campsite before these draconian measures were taken. It’s also possible that what transpired were the actions of an individual out-with the campsite who simply entered the campsite to use the toilet facilities. One camper witnessed a couple who had been out walking entering the campsite using the toilets then leaving again.

Also as stated on my previous email, a couple in a camper with no toilet facilities were checked in without being informed of the situation. This surely should not have happened.

Sorry Fiona but I feel just as strong now as I did 5 weeks ago when for no reason applicable directly to myself I was refused access to facilities that I had paid for.
I don’t accept that any business can charge people for facilities then refuse them, even in these sad times. 

Regards


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 8, 2020)

It's hard to know what to think without knowing all the facts. However, following Government guidlines. Iff any of our community centers have someone enter who shouldn't, then the place has to shut immediately and be cleaned. Even I am not allowed in and I drive the clients there.
You should at least have been given the courtesy of an explanation though.
I think everyone is on edge at the moment. I hope you get an explanation and apology, at least. Thanks for the heads up.


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## trevskoda (Sep 8, 2020)

Here my daughter cought good knows what at first day at school,testing will not be redone but we have been instructed to remove both kids from there schools and remain at home for 14 days.
This is the way things will be for us all in these trying times,my advice is dont go near campsites or public loos,if your van dont have one then stay at home and be safe never mind aiding the spread of this bug.


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## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

Hallmut said:


> It's hard to know what to think without knowing all the facts. However, following Government guidlines. Iff any of our community centers have someone enter who shouldn't, then the place has to shut immediately and be cleaned. Even I am not allowed in and I drive the clients there.
> You should at least have been given the courtesy of an explanation though.
> I think everyone is on edge at the moment. I hope you get an explanation and appology, at least. Thanks for the heads up.



The toilet was locked and closed from around 3pm till 9.30 the following morning with no cleaning being done. Also if you are concerned about Covid leaving only one toilet available for possibly 200 is a sure fire way to spread it. This was a punishment exercise pure and simple.


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 8, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> The toilet was locked and closed from around 3pm till 9.30 the following morning with no cleaning being done. Also if you are concerned about Covid leaving only one toilet available for possibly 200 is a sure fire way to spread it. This was a punishment exercise pure and simple.


I see your point. It does seem like someone had a massive tantrum, instead of dealing with the situation in a calm and safe method for all.


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## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

Hallmut said:


> I see your point. It does seem like someone had a massive tantrum, instead of dealing with the situation in a calm and safe method for all.



There were folk in tents and quite a few camper vans. They had only the one toilet to use. No shower facilities. A couple had come back from an 70 mile cycle run. They were both needing a good shower. The guy was raging, threatening to leave the C&MC after being a member for 12 years. I had to handball enough water into our tank to get a shower. Then to add insult to injury he put up a warning sign on the toilet doors next morning.

heres the sign put on the doors closing the toilets.


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## SquirrellCook (Sep 8, 2020)

Nice sign, not something done in a heated rush.  Maybe one made earlier just in case.


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## mickymost (Sep 8, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Here my daughter cought good knows what at first day at school,testing will not be redone but we have been instructed to remove both kids from there schools and remain at home for 14 days.
> This is the way things will be for us all in these trying times,my advice is dont go near campsites or public loos,if your van dont have one then stay at home and be safe never mind aiding the spread of this bug.




Sorry to hear your news Trev
hope your daughter is "ok" and your other children.Your advice about keeping away from campsites and public toilets to me is common sense.Once lockdown was over I just dont understand the need for folk to rush to the nearest campsite in a worldwide Pandemic.Absolutely crazy. I have said before If one has their own facilities then surely the safest thing is to use them.


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## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Sorry to hear your news Trev
> hope your daughter is "ok" and your other children.Your advice about keeping away from campsites and public toilets to me is common sense.Once lockdown was over I just dont understand the need for folk to rush to the nearest campsite in a worldwide Pandemic.Absolutely crazy. I have said before If one has their own facilities then surely the safest thing is to use them.



Your are entitled to your opinion Mickey.
But I am not absolutely crazy.
Or lacking in common sense.
I totally respect your POV.
We all hold opinions, we don’t always agree.


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## Penny13 (Sep 8, 2020)

Working on a campsite this year has been a huge challenge. We are all trying to cope with these uncertain time’s. I feel that the wardens had been pushed to much the sharp reaction verbally and the closure of the facilities could be stress related. I don’t know of many happy wardens this season. 
Surely most of us can have a strip wash in our own vans/tents when things go wrong. 
We have been amazed at people’s toilet and shower behaviour this season. We have tried to keep these areas safe and ourselves. Cleaning toilets and showers is not a great job this year. 
My advice don’t use them ...


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## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Working on a campsite this year has been a huge challenge. We are all trying to cope with these uncertain time’s. I feel that the wardens had been pushed to much the sharp reaction verbally and the closure of the facilities could be stress related. I don’t know of many happy wardens this season.
> Surely most of us can have a strip wash in our own vans/tents when things go wrong.
> We have been amazed at people’s toilet and shower behaviour this season. We have tried to keep these areas safe and ourselves. Cleaning toilets and showers is not a great job this year.
> My advice don’t use them ...



The vast majority of people catching covid now are doing so in house parties. Also over 90% of those catching Covid are between 18-30. So far I have not heard of any outbreaks in any campsite anywhere in the uk. Before using the shower we cleaned all parts that we touched before use. On leaving the shower we cleaned our hands and then again when returning to the Moho. Also we only showered once every two days, and did not use the toilet facilities for anything else. On the campsites the showers and toilets are limited to two or three people at any one time. I recently went for a meal with friends celebrating their retirements. I felt much safer in the campsites than I did in that restaurant. Even though they carefully seemed to follow the guidelines. Also normally we would do more wild camping, but we are concerned about doing so near any towns and villages.


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## Fisherman (Sep 8, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Here my daughter cought good knows what at first day at school,testing will not be redone but we have been instructed to remove both kids from there schools and remain at home for 14 days.
> This is the way things will be for us all in these trying times,my advice is dont go near campsites or public loos,if your van dont have one then stay at home and be safe never mind aiding the spread of this bug.



Trev, hope you and your family are ok.
Shame you are housebound for 14 days.
Keep your Irish wit going Trev.


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 8, 2020)

I'm using my own facilities when I go away, because I need a holiday, or die from exhaustion. I'll be gentle on the wardens as well. I'm more looking forward to some off grid around Ayrshire though.


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## mickymost (Sep 9, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Your are entitled to your opinion Mickey.
> But I am not absolutely crazy.
> Or lacking in common sense.
> I totally respect your POV.
> We all hold opinions, we don’t always agree.




Bill Fisherman.

Firstly Thank you for your respect to my POV 

When  I said folk in my post I was referring to everyone who felt the need to rush to a campsite (or get on a plane to go abroad) to go on a "holiday" the minute lockdown was eased which could have waited a year surely.As this is your thread obviously you feel I was personally having a go at you.I wasnt. And related to Trevskoda His kids in theory didnt have a choice but had to go back to School.People (not just you) had a choice to cram onto a campsite or onto a plane.I sympathise with him as my youngest daughter is a teacher in a primary school and although she is "getting"on with things back at the school she is worried and we are also worried for her.

You said 200 people were on the site surely out of  200 some were possibly infected.It just seems crazy to me for someone especially older(with respect)as I said not you personally but all other older people no doubt on that site, putting themselves and their partners in that position. 

I still wish you luck in your pursuit of a refund but  dont feel by their reply you are going to get very far.But good luck and stay safe.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Inside info has been telling me all summer that there has been a mass exodus of wardens from the C&MC.
They are experiencing severe staff shortages at the sharp end, so for all sorts of reasons I'm not surprised to hear about incidents like this.

There's always a percentage of people who behave badly/abuse public toilet/washing facilities during normal times, so I never envisaged the situation improving during covid, rather that it would always potentially get worse. There are also C&MC wardens who behave very badly and should never be employed in those sort of customer-facing jobs in the first place.


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## runnach (Sep 9, 2020)

Marie one of my favourite sayings from a sales background is never ask a difficult question to a stranger it’s all negative. The same extends to staff too, and I have little doubt (or proof) wardens and the coal face facing on sites have been put in that position. For what they get paid ain’t worth the hassle.albeit a lifestyle. So little wonder people become frustrated
Customers and staff alike. 

This in no way distracts from Bill s issues, but to many folk finding themselves in untenable situations


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## SquirrellCook (Sep 9, 2020)

It really does seem that a small pamphlet is needed.  entitled "Personal Hygiene and Toilet Etiquette"  Hopefully this would covert some of the savages to civilised!
This could be given out when attending campsites or places with shared facilities.  An audible version to for those that won't read.


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## mickymost (Sep 9, 2020)

Marie 

exactly so.
Funnily enough I have just had a conversation with Swmbo about this thread and as she Is a housekeeper in the local NHS Hospital we were discussing the cleaning aspect at the campsites and feel many wardens who it seems do the cleaning as well are technically untrained in cleaning.Many are retirees who dont in theory need the money but enjoy the role(or did pre covid19)And It might seem that anyone could be a cleaner but believe it or not as in other jobs there are right ways and wrong ways to clean.As my wife does at the hospital one is supposed to have different buckets for different tasks including the cleaning cloths etc.So on those lines with #covid19 hanging over us are these campsite toilets and showers getting cleaned properly? probably not as surely these wardens would be anxious about catching the disease.So thats why they probably are quitting the role.
Regarding using campsite showers it seems Cornavirus Covid19 can hang around in the air through the steam from the shower.My wife who has just returned to work at the NHS Hospital has been banned from using a steamer to clean anything due to the steam potentially pushing the germ/virus around.

Moving on I think both clubs and non club campsites will struggle to employ Wardens to clean especially the older people who value their life more than money from a little retirement  job


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## mickymost (Sep 9, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> It really does seem that a small pamphlet is needed.  entitled "Personal Hygiene and Toilet Etiquette"  Hopefully this would covert some of the savages to civilised!
> This could be given out when attending campsites or places with shared facilities.  An audible version to for those that won't read.




Yes in an ideal world the your idea could work.We dont live in an ideal world sadly.What about all the "savages" as you put it who were staying in tents on the road verges leaving a pile of poo and toilet paper everywhere.You really think these guys will change their behaviour?


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

SquirrellCook said:


> It really does seem that a small pamphlet is needed.  entitled "Personal Hygiene and Toilet Etiquette"  Hopefully this would covert some of the savages to civilised!
> This could be given out when attending campsites or places with shared facilities.  An audible version to for those that won't read.



Unfortunately the world is full of dirty people living in supposedly 'civilised' countries like the UK and it's been this way for years.

Good life-long friend who was a publican for many, many years and pub toilets are always a good testing ground.

Unsurprisingly (or maybe it will be to those who aren't in the know, or have ever done the job - I have...) the ladies loos in pubs were generally subjected to far more 'disgusting' abuse than the gents.

Someone I knew a few years back spent every winter living in India, coming back to the UK to run her luxury B&B during the 'summer season' here. She always commented how thoroughly scruffy British men were in comparison to the Indians when it came to personal hygiene. Even the poorest Indians would wash themselves and their clothes several times a day.

The lifelong friend is a stickler for cleaning with extremely high standards and yes, you're right Micky, a lot of the wardens haven't a clue and a fair few can be quite lazy into the bargain, hence maybe the lack of grass cutting that Bill (Fisherman) witnessed? The training at the C&MC possibly leaves a lot to be desired. As does their selection process for employing wardens, perhaps, and any kind of follow-up checks to see how they're performing?

The majority of wardens do tend to be in the older age group (a *lot* of retirees!) and it's a no brainer that many would be choosing to quit the job under current circumstances.


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## antiquesam (Sep 9, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Marie
> 
> exactly so.
> Funnily enough I have just had a conversation with Swmbo about this thread and as she Is a housekeeper in the local NHS Hospital we were discussing the cleaning aspect at the campsites and feel many wardens who it seems do the cleaning as well are technically untrained in cleaning.Many are retirees who dont in theory need the money but enjoy the role(or did pre covid19)And It might seem that anyone could be a cleaner but believe it or not as in other jobs there are right ways and wrong ways to clean.As my wife does at the hospital one is supposed to have different buckets for different tasks including the cleaning cloths etc.So on those lines with #covid19 hanging over us are these campsite toilets and showers getting cleaned properly? probably not as surely these wardens would be anxious about catching the disease.So thats why they probably are quitting the role.
> ...


A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.



I think the biggest observation feedback my friend gave to me was the regime employed after training which can differ enormously between sites, training or no training. It's often very hard for 'managers' to follow up on how well staff are following their training/good practice procedures, unless they go onsite incognito/undercover to check for themselves. Some of the routines adopted by site manager were totally ludicrous, self-defeating or even side stepped good 'rules'. There also appears to be more than a fair share of 'little hitlerism' in the sector. This from someone who has worked sites for more than 15 years and has an excellent work ethic themselves....

A lot of people swing the lead given half a chance and don't always have the sort of work ethics you might wish for. Left to their own devices the rules are often relaxed/ignored/bent, especially when they are effectively appointed as the legitimate 'site managers' with no one to answer to, except perhaps an area manager who can't be visiting every site every day to check on working practices...

All down to whether individuals take a conscientious approach to their work, whatever the job (obviously applies across all industries, natch).

It also seems as though the C&MC is a 'top heavy' organisation with perhaps more managers than coal face workers? That will always cause operational problems...


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## Penny13 (Sep 9, 2020)

Many wardening jobs are underpaid and not a retirement option.

Being on the hard end of this this year my sympathies lie with the wardens not the public.


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## SquirrellCook (Sep 9, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Many wardening jobs are underpaid and not a retirement option.
> 
> Being on the hard end of this this year my sympathies lie with the wardens not the public.


So minimum wage doesn't exist any more?  Many people are not capable of working hard enough to cover it.  Then other people bleat about high prices.


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## brian c (Sep 9, 2020)

You say over 200 people a day using toilet. That I believe is one every 6 minutes  if they only use it once a day .    When do they have time to use clean it etc  and if one or more people are abusing it  then I can understand the management closing it for a while. Surprised that they actually reopened it.  With Covid etc.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Hallmut said:


> I see your point. It does seem like someone had a massive tantrum, instead of dealing with the situation in a calm and safe method for all.





brian c said:


> You say over 200 people a day using toilet. That I believe is one every 6 minutes  if they only use it once a day .    When do they have time to use clean it etc  and if one or more people are abusing it  then I can understand the management closing it for a while. Surprised that they actually reopened it.  With Covid etc.





SquirrellCook said:


> So minimum wage doesn't exist any more?  Many people are not capable of working hard enough to cover it.  Then other people bleat about high prices.



My friends have been babysitting a C&MC site in the Midlands for the last month as sole wardens, covering for sickness/people quitting jobs.
They're just back up north now.

Quick telephone call I had with them this morning and they have been on the receiving end of some abuse from site visitors through no fault of their own.

They have told me that if the toilet block(s) at Bill's (@Fisherman) site were closed for that length of time, the wardens were probably instructed to do so by someone higher up in the line management as the club is trying it's best to keep in line with safety guidelines. As we're all hearing stories from other sectors about the public not following guidelines, this is not a unique situation right now.

They were abused by angry customers because the system of giving people wrist bands to use for the loos/showers is supposed to only allow 3 people in at any one time. You hang your wrist bands up outside to let everyone else know how many cubicles are currently occupied, but a lot of the time people were forgetting to collect their wrist bands on the way out, so it appeared cubicles were in use when they weren't. Also loads of people were ignoring the system and just using the shower/toilet blocks anyway.

And yes, they've has a similar incident to the wardens where Bill was, i.e. someone breaking into a cubicle that was marked as out of use, taking a dump and not bothering to flush. Could have been a lot worse mind....
Guess when you're desperate you just gotta go, ey?

Anyway, due to the last month's weird experience they're now of the very firm opinion that the club (and probably other campsites) should close the loos/showers completely and only allow vans on site that have their own onboard facilities, the most essential obviously being a toilet.

This whole thing with public toiletting facilities is a real bug bear because of covid right now. It's appears it's not that easy to keep on top of it....

Just sayin'


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Forgot to say that I thought the wages paid to my friends by the C&MC seemed OK, especially considering that all their own running costs while living on site are free. So, no gas/electric/water bills, use of all the washing facilities and usually a staff-only loo/shower/washing machine/clothes drier plus other perks depending which site you're at.

Apart from the running cost of their vehicles(s) - they're tuggers, not vanners - and buying food and personal essentials they have no other overheads and have lived for next to nothing for the last 15 years. Also, for the next 10 years or so (I think?) they can stay on any C&MC site for nothing and as often as they like. In fact they have mostly lived on sites in their caravan for free all year round for at least the last 10 years. If that isn't cheap living I don't know what is, but I guess it depends on how you view personal income/finances?

That's not bad going in my book, but I guess it does make a difference that one of them is a retiree with a good pension and doesn't need to work for the money. Just enjoys having something to keep him busy and meeting new people in his old age...


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## landoboguy (Sep 10, 2020)

In the absence of not having installed a "covid" compliance officer to monitor and run the facilities, Id have closed the toilets/showers completely if people were abusing the facilities and safety of others. Assuming the excuse was true of course, and hoped the general concensus from most would be that the step was taken to protect all.
Similar in a way to when the governments locked down various countries, then Id lock down the bogs/site if i had to.

I am giving the people of this site one simple instruction "cross your legs and squeeze your scissors"    stay van.

If you can't  stay here safely dont stay here at all, would be my attitude. You see it all round the country people flouting the guidance.
Safety first, then Id worry about the refunds/leavers/moaners/ anyone who agrees with me later.

All the sites Ive been too since covid, I have used my own on board facilites exclusivley. As for those in tent sor without facilities, Im sorry, its a case of the few runing it for everyone.

Have I missed the content of the original letter you sent to complain ? I dont see it.
Id have probably binned it (or at least filed under "to do when things are back to normal") not trying to be rude, but sometimes there are more important issues than where to shower/wc if it is being abused.
oh and it was 18.5 hours, Ive told you a million times about exgageratting    almost would be 22...23...23.5


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

landoboguy said:


> In the absence of not having installed a "covid" compliance officer to monitor and run the facilities, Id have closed the toilets/showers completely if people were abusing the facilities and safety of others. Assuming the excuse was true of course, and hoped the general concensus from most would be that the step was taken to protect all.
> Similar in a way to when the governments locked down various countries, then Id lock down the bogs/site if i had to.
> 
> I am giving the people of this site one simple instruction "cross your legs and squeeze your scissors"    stay van.
> ...


To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.
Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.
If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.
> 
> If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
> We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.



Mariesnowgoose Landoboguy and Antiquesam spot on

In normal times I would totally agree with you.At present we are living through this "Pandemic" Things change daily.Areas are getting locked and unlocked daily.Forever the news is reporting of somewhere where the "figures"are rising.So as you said going to a Hotel or B and B then hopefully you would be warned in advance of what to expect on your visit(I have no experience as have been no where since last year) So surely going to a campsite One would expect the same.One has the choice to go there.One is not forced to go there.So surely the "contract" is flexible and due to change regarding facilities on the campsite.I suppose to be fair they should alter the contracts to state this.I Imagine on the website (if the campsite has one)Covid19 and problems would be mentioned? Surely the two big clubs would have something in writing to warn visitors.If not then that is poor.
What I am saying is dont expect things to be normal whatever you are doing in this present climate THEN one cant be disappointed if things change!
And think of all those who have lost their lives GOD BLESS to them and not having a shower then becomes trivial and not worth getting annoyed over.Use your own facilities.If you have a van or tent without facilities then DONT GO simple.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.





mariesnowgoose said:


> All down to whether individuals take a conscientious approach to their work, whatever the job (obviously applies across all industries, natch).





So they have the training and a Trolley full of kit on a Cand MC site.What about independent sites do they have all the kit and training.A couple of years ago I stayed at Withernsea on the Parkdean resorts site.I was sited right next to the toilets.Due to being right next to the toilets and having a Campervan with only a small sink and no hot water We decided I would use the wash up sink to do the dishes being based on the wall just outside the toilets.While I was doing this a Lady cleaner was mopping the toilets floors then she came out and rinsed out her mop in the washing up sink next to me.This in theory is disgusting.I duly complained to management but it fell on deaf ears sadly.So do other Wardens do the job properly?Some must do.

As Marie says if left to their own devices and an area Manager just visiting weekly for instance I wonder how many are conscientious and do whats right.


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

mickymost said:


> So they have the training and a Trolley full of kit on a Cand MC site.What about independent sites do they have all the kit and training.A couple of years ago I stayed at Withernsea on the Parkdean resorts site.I was sited right next to the toilets.Due to being right next to the toilets and having a Campervan with only a small sink and no hot water We decided I would use the wash up sink to do the dishes being based on the wall just outside the toilets.While I was doing this a Lady cleaner was mopping the toilets floors then she came out and rinsed out her mop in the washing up sink next to me.This in theory is disgusting.I duly complained to management but it fell on deaf ears sadly.So do other Wardens do the job properly?Some must do.
> 
> As Marie says if left to their own devices and an area Manager just visiting weekly for instance I wonder how many are conscientious and do whats right.


I have no experience of independent sites. They seem expensive and run for the benefit of the owners. At least the club's pretend to operate for the members.


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

We moved to Portsmouth about five years after the Falklands War and viewed lots of houses, many of them were owned by matelots. Without exception they were in the middle of DIY projects that were half finished with the excuse that the War had slowed them down. How long will we have to endure poor service with the "pandemic" as an excuse? Every time something is wrong the excuse comes out. No eggs, the covid. No toilets, the covid. No driving licence renewel, the covid. I could go on, but my breakfast calls.


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## jagmanx (Sep 10, 2020)

You have breakfast ? Lucky person. No breakfast..sorry Covid !


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> a cubicle that was marked as out of use,



I've seen this in a pub, bonkers. There is a wall between the cubicles, so it would be fine to have both in use. Urinals, Yes an out of use one between two gives space, but it doesn't matter in a cubicle!


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> I've seen this in a pub, bonkers. There is a wall between the cubicles, so it would be fine to have both in use. Urinals, Yes an out of use one between two gives space, but it doesn't matter in a cubicle!



That's because our modern day 'health and safety' culture is clashing with a virus that just runs a bulldozer through the whole pantomime.

All they're doing with these various 'rules' and 'guidelines' is trying to prevent the liquid from the smashed virus bottle running all over the place with primitive roadblocks.

It's damage limitation all the way, and interpretations and methods used to follow those 'guidelines' are fairly crude due to the complex nature of the problem.  The fact that the 'guidelines' have had to be produced in a fairly short timescale also causes problems, as do individual approaches to adopting those guidelines. Also, how do you ever police every single place or person in the land to ensure they are complying (or not being stupidly over the top)?! It's simply impossible.


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## Fisherman (Sep 10, 2020)

As I started this thread I feel I have to respond to some of the comments.
It seems that some have misread why I am perusing this matter.
This has little to do with who wishes to use facilities or those who chose not to.
That’s an entirely different t topic.

I can think of no other situation were someone charges you for something then advises you not to use it.
If the C&MC were really genuine about Covid safety they would close all toilet facilities and reduce prices. This would relieve the wardens of such a burden, make the camps safer, and avoid such issues.
But they want their cake and to eat it. By advising people not to use facilities suggests that they are unable to provide a safe environment for their use, so they should not be available or charged for in the first place. Also when organising any such system you should always take into account that some won’t follow the rules. Also how can reducing seven toilet facilities to just one create a safer Covid environment for those who have no choice but to use these facilities. This had nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with the C&MC wanting to maximise their income, whilst putting their wardens into an impossible situation, and risking the safety of their members. Quite frankly I don’t give a toss about any refund, that boat sailed long ago. As I stated on my initial post this is all about principles.
If the C&MC are really serious about Covid they should do the decent thing and close all toilet facilities which by virtue of the fact they recommend not using are indicating they may be unsafe for use. Clearly this is a case where they are putting profit before safety, their hypocrisy here knows no bounds. I would not wish to be a warden on one of their sites right now being placed in this impossible position.

No more from me on this issue.


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 10, 2020)

Recently seen in a pub in Emsworth. They were so officious & over the top when we went in I wouldn't bother again but this really made me laugh. The courtyard gents had been turned into a unisex loo with 2 stalls appropriately marked. A very good idea to stop people having to walk through the pub but I can imagine the games some guys would play with this after a few too many beers!


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

I agree with @Fisherman.

The C&MC club need to get their act together on this one re what to charge and what facilities to open in the current circumstances.

I would wager that one of the biggest problems they are currently having to deal with, on top of the virus, are staff shortages (wardens).

I would also wager that the head office management are pretty remote from the 'sharp end' during 'normal' times, so a situation like this is always going to cause a whole raft of new problems for them. It's caused major headaches even for businesses that are savvy and more in touch with what they're supposed to be doing.

Definitely a touch of the 'ivory towers' about the club management, or so I'm told by those who know.


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> Recently seen in a pub in Emsworth. They were so officious & over the top when we went in I wouldn't bother again but this really made me laugh. The courtyard gents had been turned into a unisex loo with 2 stalls appropriately marked. A very good idea to stop people having to walk through the pub but I can imagine the games some guys would play with this after a few too many beers!
> 
> View attachment 86402



Target practice!


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## mark61 (Sep 10, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> Recently seen in a pub in Emsworth. They were so officious & over the top when we went in I wouldn't bother again but this really made me laugh. The courtyard gents had been turned into a unisex loo with 2 stalls appropriately marked. A very good idea to stop people having to walk through the pub but I can imagine the games some guys would play with this after a few too many beers!
> 
> View attachment 86402



Anyone remember Green wing?


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

I just remembered, I actually took a pic of it. It's even a real wall, not just a partition...


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

We stayed at Moreton on Marsh just after they opened up and was impressed with the armband system. Three bands were in a bucket of Milton's at the entrance to the ablutions. You took a band and put it back in the bucket on the way out. Queues to get in were orderly despite the fact that the site must have had 200 units. Even the mobile chip shop and pizza baker worked.


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## Deleted member 34243 (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.
> Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.
> If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
> We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.


For goodness sake, we are talking about a closed toilet
Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I would wager that one of the biggest problems they are currently having to deal with, on top of the virus, are staff shortages (wardens).
> 
> I would also wager that the head office management are pretty remote from the 'sharp end' during 'normal' times,  It's caused major headaches even for businesses that are savvy and more in touch with what they're supposed to be doing.
> 
> Definitely a touch of the 'ivory towers' about the club management, or so I'm told by those who know.




Wardens especially older ones not going to be forthcoming.Younger guys couldnt live on a Warden Wage unless they are full time Vanlifers who dont mind earning just a little and having a Hook up and a Site included in the deal.
Main management not at "coal face" and now due to Covid19 away from danger.Probably sat at home remote working but happy to send down orders,and collect a lovely salary.


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

phase3begins said:


> For goodness sake, we are talking about a closed toilet
> Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.


The principle is the same, some of us would consider death and the need to go in a similar way.


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## brian c (Sep 10, 2020)

Your original thread said 200 people who had paid to use the toilet facility. Had been denied.   You did not mention anything about most not using the facilities but using there own    You did mention long queues in the morning.    So by your original thread one must presume 200  paid for toilet facility and were denied access even though a lot of them  did not want access.  Now I am confused(i in case any one does not understand my thread I had a pm from op and I am replying in open not pm)  brian


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## witzend (Sep 10, 2020)

In this present time Why would 200 people want to use the same toilet.  In normal times we always use our own facility's


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## Penny13 (Sep 10, 2020)

Interesting reading on today. Our boss is happy to take the money and thinks he is keeping us safe. He panics about his own safety but looks bemused when I talk about ours. 

We could leave yes and seriously it has nearly come to that.

All the Covid Saftey is down to me and luckily I have cleaned before so no mops from toilets being cleaned out in washing up sinks. There is a colour coded moping and cloth system as well.

Things I did not know are when we sterilising surfaces it needs to stay on for more than 20 seconds wipe on wipe of is doing no good. Put the toilet seat down when flushing. We need to shower after every clean. That’s three times a day. ( we wear overalls, gloves, masks and goggles ) and now I read steam as in shower rooms holds the virus.

I read the government guidelines and still do, I wrote our rules based on that. If I had not I dread to think what we would be exposed to. He doesn’t need any risk assessment as under 5 employees. I tried to stop group bookingsthat’s our biggest problem.

Now the harsh bit all season we have had groups over 6 saying we are a bubble and laughing at us. We had a charity event say the same. ( I now look at them and say really and we are cleaning your toilets ) People clean their teeth in the pot washing up area and wash their children. The hand washing sinks get used by the children not many adults. People are peeing in the showers and wiping pooh up the toilet walls. I have caught one man using the water tap to clean his toilet cassette. We don’t allow visitors but hey we spend our days asking them to leave. It’s funny how many people now live together, for us it’s not.
And two metres what is that no one knows.
The thing is cleaning toilets is now a very different job and I see no change in the future. So we do it and keep ourselves as safe as possible.

My advice again use your own facilities I see people’s disgusting behaviour every day.

Thank you Marie for calling your friends send my best regards from a fellow toilet cleaners.
Oh yes and grumpy wardens on occasions we are only human ...


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

witzend said:


> In this present time Why would 200 people want to use the same toilet.  In normal times we always use our own facility's


It's all that humping water after a shower and trying to get rid of the lumpy bits from the cassette when you're paying for constantly running water and a flushing lavatory.


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 10, 2020)

I can't help but think a simple text to all campers explaining the reason for closure, would have been a courteous thing to do. Communication is key when dealing with the public.


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## landoboguy (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.
> Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.
> If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
> We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.


Thats fine, and Im just posting what I would do and  as I paid for my facilities when I bought my motorhome it isn't a problem. I wont argue your opinion of my actions would be and is also your opinion, I have my reasons and you have yours.

I wouldnt say shooting everyone in the village was a good analogy though   cmon....a bit extreme that one ! war crime wow.

Making everyone in the village cross their legs or go home in case someone contracts covid and spreads it round the country = deaths for me isnt the same as a "war crime" Im beginning to see now why Phil has decided to stop moderating this forum. As soon as anyone posts a difference of opinion some members take it to the extreme (like you in this case) war crime ha ha.

I didnt attack the OP, I put my pov across, I actually think fishermans posts are spot on, and yes the club need to get it sorted, then you coming on to me and calling me a war criminal 

If I can just sum up my last post here, in my eyes what you are saying is they should say

"hey open the toilets and risk infection because *we have paid* for these facilities" which means in  my eyes these peope are no different than any other spreading the virus . How to stop it, close the problem !

I am friends with a well respected 150 pitch site in Wales, and the stories he ahs told me about "us" and the things some of "us" complain about is a joke in these times.

Anyway, Im off to shoot some villager who didnt obey the rules.

enjoy, and remember if 5 of you dont like what others say (me) then 5 post reports auto deletes the post. Just like some despot shoting villagers and ruining the chance to see the whole posts for everyone else = dead forum run by they who run together .


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

landoboguy said:


> Thats fine, and Im just posting what I would do and  as I paid for my facilities when I bought my motorhome it isn't a problem. I wont argue your opinion of my actions would be and is also your opinion, I have my reasons and you have yours.
> 
> I wouldnt say shooting everyone in the village was a good analogy though   cmon....a bit extreme that one ! war crime wow.
> 
> ...


That got you thinking though. I was using Extinction Rebellion and BLM tactics.


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## brian c (Sep 10, 2020)

Landoboguy well put. Definite thumbs up.       Everyone has an opinion (as I say. Right wrong indifferent. R W I )    A club I belong to has a member that cannot be wrong. Only one way to do things. His way.  ( no not me)). We have done things in front of him to show that there is more then one way to do say something.  His reply is your wrong here is how to do say it. Some people cannot accept other people have an opinion.   I believe that includes me  occasionally. Sometimes I will think why on earth did they say that.   They had there reason.  Brian


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## SquirrellCook (Sep 10, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> wiping pooh up the toilet walls.


Savages !!


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> I just remembered, I actually took a pic of it. It's even a real wall, not just a partition...
> 
> View attachment 86404



You want to be careful taking pics in public loos


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> I just remembered, I actually took a pic of it. It's even a real wall, not just a partition...
> 
> View attachment 86404


I really think you should get out more.


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> It's all that humping water after a shower and trying to get rid of the lumpy bits from the cassette when you're paying for constantly running water and a flushing lavatory.


You should look at it as part of your fitness regime .....


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 10, 2020)

If I paid to stay on a site with facilities I would still be using ours. The only place we use facilities is on a marina we stay at. They are immaculate.


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## brian c (Sep 10, 2020)

My wife won’t let me use the facilities. She says I have to wash in Moho. That way she knows I have done behind my ears and teeth. Brian


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 10, 2020)

Funnily enough I used to stay at another marina up Robmac's way, where my brother moored his boat. It too was immaculate. Do people respect loos more if their investment is higher?


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> Funnily enough I used to stay at another marina up Robmac's way, where my brother moored his boat. It too was immaculate. Do people respect loos more if their investment is higher?


Probably just that they've been brought up proper.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> I really think you should get out more.




What out of the Toilet


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## Robmac (Sep 10, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> Funnily enough I used to stay at another marina up Robmac's way, where my brother moored his boat. It too was immaculate. Do people respect loos more if their investment is higher?



I'm moored at Crosshall Marina in St Neots at the moment Sharon and the facilities there are immaculate and the grounds are kept pristine.

I think it may be because the main users are members who pay for their moorings and respect the facilities and their guests treat them with equal respect because they don't want to embarrass/let down their boat owning friends/relatives. With only one or two exceptions every marina I have ever visited have been similar.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

brian c said:


> I had a pm from op and I am replying in open not pm)  brian




I also had a PM from OP and replied to him in PM. I feel he really feels strongly about the point he is trying to make here relating to his refund,and what with the new rules on this forum probably doesnt want to post anything in the open Forum on this thread where he doesnt agree with us which could get him banned.Just to say his PM was him explaining his feelings to me relating to Covid and he expressed to me he feels there is no chance of catching anything on a campsite Covid related due to the  low figures.I feel the opposite to this and feel one could catch it anywhere.

I have said openly on this thread how I feel.Either DONT GO to campsite or if you cant resist that urge eating away at you like a kid needing a sweetshop then by all means go BUT use your own facilities and keep safe.

Michael


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

brian c said:


> Your original thread said 200 people who had paid to use the toilet facility. Had been denied.   You did not mention anything about most not using the facilities but using there own    You did mention long queues in the morning.    So by your original thread one must presume 200  paid for toilet facility and were denied access even though a lot of them  did not want access.  Now I am confused(i in case any one does not understand my thread I had a pm from op and I am replying in open not pm)  brian




I am also confused a little by what the OP wants to achieve as these are unusual times.He did say 200 needed and used 1 toilet which is outrageous.Going by this figure if each person took 5 minutes in the toilet (some would take a lot longer) but at 5 minutes each then it would have taken over 16 hours i/e two days to complete their business so doesnt add up.



Michael


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 10, 2020)

Robmac said:


> I'm moored at Crosshall Marina in St Neots at the moment Sharon and the facilities there are immaculate and the grounds are kept pristine.
> 
> I think it may be because the main users are members who pay for their moorings and respect the facilities and their guests treat them with equal respect because they don't want to embarrass/let down their boat owning friends/relatives. With only one or two exceptions every marina I have ever visited have been similar.



It was Crosshall I used to stay at. My brother bought his Hardy Pilot whilst it was moored there & kept it there for a couple of years, then moved it to a marina on Chichester Harbour. The grounds at Crosshall are gorgeous, beautifully kept.


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

I fear for society if people feel they can't express their views in a civilised manner without fearing banishment. This is happening right through the country with universities banning speakers because they don't agree with their views.


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## Robmac (Sep 10, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> It was Crosshall I used to stay at. My brother bought his Hardy Pilot whilst it was moored there & kept it there for a couple of years, then moved it to a marina on Chichester Harbour. The grounds at Crosshall are gorgeous, beautifully kept.



I'm actually moored next to a Hardy Pilot at the moment Sharon and I recently owned one before buying my present boat. I really miss the Hardy - a proper boat, but the headroom was just a little too low for me. 

I've been moored at Crosshall on and off for 30 years now so possibly knew your brother. It's a lovely place to be, in fact I've been down there this morning just for a mooch about in a pleasant place. The clubhouse was known to stay open until daylight at times as well!


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## landoboguy (Sep 10, 2020)

antiquesam said:


> I fear for society if people feel they can't express their views in a civilised manner without fearing banishment. This is happening right through the country with universities banning speakers because they don't agree with their views.


So do I feel for people not being able to express their opinion without being accused of genecide 
whats the old saying, please ensure brain is engaged putting your mouth into gear.

I too had a PM from the OP, even though I thought my post said it all and was as objective as I could make it,  I took the time to explain it in more detail to avoid upset.
And Ill say again, I value all of Bills posts on here


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

landoboguy said:


> And Ill say again, I value all of Bills posts on here



I also Value Bills posts,  he always talks sense is level headed and seems like a fair person in his outlook.But as others I feel he is not going to post much on Wildcamping in the near future as he doesnt like the way things are on here just now.


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

Val54 said:


> You want to be careful taking pics in public loos



I've only ever had a problem in the ladies.



antiquesam said:


> I really think you should get out more.



It's a pub, I _was_ out lol


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> I've only ever had a problem in the ladies.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a pub, I _was_ out lol




At least it wasnt a Council "public toilet" Steve lol


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

Just to bring this thread back on track, I had a look at the recent feedback on the CMC website for this site. Two conclusions, the wardens weren't/ aren't coping and possibly the facilities themselves have ongoing issues without the damage caused by persons unknown. I'm guessing the damage was the final straw and the wardens refused to deal with it. Sounds like a "perfect storm" handled very badly both by on-site staff and the CMC management. Here's an example of the feedback ......

"Have used this site twice yearly for some years. Excellent location,used to be immaculate (all be it with a couple of very tight corners).Now has a shabby and neglected air. Grass poorly maintained, weedy pitches and poorly maintained paintwork.Female warden agitated and not coping with the job, agree with previous critical comments.Female toilets (2) overflowing and not checked at 6pm.Not Covid safe and definitely not at all to Club standards.Will not be back."


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## witzend (Sep 10, 2020)

mickymost said:


> What out of the Toilet


Toilets locked and there's 200 queuing for it


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

witzend said:


> Toilets locked and there's 200 queuing for it


And he's messing about in there taking pictures. Lucky it wasn't a feature film.


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## REC (Sep 10, 2020)

It is so sad that people are not supported properly doing any job. I would assume that they were just not able to cope if the posted review is anything to go by. The complaint brought by the OP needs to be properly addressed since he feels aggrieved by the poor communication, not to mention facilities closed.  The lack of empathy for the other campers was unnecessary and, as always happens, makes a bad situation worse. The issue of whether he should be there is really beside the point. If the campsite is open, a service should be provided .  The CMC would be better to accept that there were several  issues, that it was not necessarily dealt with well and apologise properly. Covid risk assessments don't have to be done if less than five employees but a good management would produce one anyway in order to support their staff, hopefully they will look at what happened on this site and have a plan to prevent recurrence. A goodwill gesture might help appease but not hopeful that it will be forthcoming.


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## vindiboy (Sep 10, 2020)

When we bought our vans we made sure that each and every one of them had an adequate shower ,and toilet facilities aboard, this is a must have for us , I would hate to shower  in a communal shower and use the sit down facilities in the same , don't mind a stand up pee but even this is not often a great experience .


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## REC (Sep 10, 2020)

vindiboy said:


> When we bought our vans we made sure that each and every one of them had an adequate shower ,and toilet facilities aboard, this is a must have for us , I would hate to shower  in a communal shower and use the sit down facilities in the same , don't mind a stand up pee but even this is not often a great experience .


We decided not to have a  shower for several reasons, although we do have a toilet. I do think that if a site offers the facilities, they should be clean &  safe...and it is the choice of the individual whether they wish to use them in these times. Don't understand why some people have become so careless ( and even deliberately misuse) since Covid....it seems to have brought out the worse in some individuals and is so sad.


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

REC said:


> It is so sad that people are not supported properly doing any job. I would assume that they were just not able to cope if the posted review is anything to go by. The complaint brought by the OP needs to be properly addressed since he feels aggrieved by the poor communication, not to mention facilities closed.  The lack of empathy for the other campers was unnecessary and, as always happens, makes a bad situation worse. The issue of whether he should be there is really beside the point. If the campsite is open, a service should be provided .  The CMC would be better to accept that there were several  issues, that it was not necessarily dealt with well and apologise properly. Covid risk assessments don't have to be done if less than five employees but a good management would produce one anyway in order to support their staff, hopefully they will look at what happened on this site and have a plan to prevent recurrence. A goodwill gesture might help appease but not hopeful that it will be forthcoming.



Absolutely right Ruth, we can only surmise from the other reviews of the site that toilets in both sections were overflowing and that someone had kicked down the cubicle door(s) to find a working toilet, possibly leaving doors hanging off etc. So I get that there might have been a crisis but the response was diabolical. There must have been the option of calling in outside help, either from area managers or private contractors. To simply opt to close the toilets and not spend money sorting the problem out before the next morning is unacceptable but typical of CMC. I hope the OP gets a proper response.


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## landoboguy (Sep 10, 2020)

REC said:


> Covid risk assessments don't have to be done if less than five employees but a good management would produce one anyway in order to support their staff, hopefully they will look at what happened on this site and have a plan to prevent recurrence. A goodwill gesture might help appease but not hopeful that it will be forthcoming.


Covid risk assesments need to be done for the public safety though


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

REC said:


> We decided not to have a  shower for several reasons, although we do have a toilet. I do think that if a site offers the facilities, they should be clean &  safe...and it is the choice of the individual whether they wish to use them in these times. Don't understand why some people have become so careless ( and even deliberately misuse) since Covid....it seems to have brought out the worse in some individuals and is so sad.




Facilities should be clean and safe but probably not enough staff to cope since Pandemic changed things.Are people any worse since Covid or are folk more sensitive now and the ones being careful obviously will get irritated by the ones that arent.


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

vindiboy said:


> don't mind a stand up pee but even this is not often a great experience .




Especially when your soo desperate and stood behind 200 people knowing you will be there 16 hours later before your turn


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## mickymost (Sep 10, 2020)

landoboguy said:


> Covid risk assesments need to be done for the public safety though




Well its seems the Club Sites opened as soon as Lockdown was released, they became fully booked,werent ready for the Incoming Tide of people and are now paying the price.Temporary Staff handing in their notice,or walking on the spot because they have had enough.I dont personally blame them.No support from up top so probably Bye Bye campsite and stick it where the sun dont shine!


Michael


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Val54 said:


> Absolutely right Ruth, we can only surmise from the other reviews of the site that toilets in both sections were overflowing and that someone had kicked down the cubicle door(s) to find a working toilet, possibly leaving doors hanging off etc. So I get that there might have been a crisis but the response was diabolical. *There must have been the option of calling in outside help, either from area managers or private contractors*. To simply opt to close the toilets and not spend money sorting the problem out before the next morning is unacceptable but typical of CMC. I hope the OP gets a proper response.



I understand that they have had mega problems recruiting new staff and have had existing staff leaving in their droves, Dave.

Guessing that recruitment or hiring private contractors also not as straight forward as you think, plus this is the C&MC we're talking about, not so hot with staff at the best of times!  

Folks will be very wary about taking on toilet/shower cleaning jobs on campsites in the current situation, especially in the age group that would normally be applying for these sort of jobs.

Remember the shout out for fruit and veg pickers earlier in the year due to regular migrant pickers not coming into the country? Hardly any take up from Brits there either, so staff shortages on camp sites right now doesn't surprise me at all.


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## SquirrellCook (Sep 10, 2020)

Contract cleaners are a waste of time, as they are encouraged to finish the job quickly.


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I understand that they have had mega problems recruiting new staff and have had existing staff leaving in their droves, Dave.
> 
> Guessing that recruitment or hiring private contractors also not as straight forward as you think, plus this is the C&MC we're talking about, not so hot with staff at the best of times!
> 
> ...



I'm not underestimating CMC's longer term problems Marie,  but I'm guessing there was no immediate reaction from management when things started to go wrong early on. It was a simple fix to close all toilet facilities and make everyone use their own vans. Equally Dynarod (other firms are available) are on 24 hour call out so I don't buy in to CMC's decision to close rather than call in help. As you say CMC have a track record for not spending money where its needed.


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## antiquesam (Sep 10, 2020)

landoboguy said:


> So do I feel for people not being able to express their opinion without being accused of genecide
> whats the old saying, please ensure brain is engaged putting your mouth into gear.
> 
> I too had a PM from the OP, even though I thought my post said it all and was as objective as I could make it,  I took the time to explain it in more detail to avoid upset.
> And Ill say again, I value all of Bills posts on here


Have I missed something? Who has committed genocide? I try to keep up with the news but sometimes it's difficult. I'm sure it wasn't on the news.


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## sparrks (Sep 10, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> On the 4 August the warden at Culloden Moor campsite closed the toilet facilities for almost 24 hours.
> 
> 
> You also failed to mention the reply I received from the warden when simply asking what had transpired, and why I was being refused access to facilities that I and others had paid for. His response was rude and offensive, I had every right to ask what was going on. *The fact remains that approximately 200 people who had paid for the use of toilet facilities were denied access due to the actions of what appears to have been one stupid individual.* And it’s even possible that the culprit had left the campsite before these draconian measures were taken. It’s also possible that what transpired were the actions of an individual out-with the campsite who simply entered the campsite to use the toilet facilities. One camper witnessed a couple who had been out walking entering the campsite using the toilets then leaving again.
> ...





brian c said:


> You say over 200 people a day using toilet. That I believe is one every 6 minutes  if they only use it once a day .    When do they have time to use clean it etc  and if one or more people are abusing it  then I can understand the management closing it for a while. Surprised that they actually reopened it.  With Covid etc.





witzend said:


> Toilets locked and there's 200 queuing for it





mickymost said:


> Especially when your soo desperate and stood behind 200 people knowing you will be there 16 hours later before your turn


It's funny what you can read into things if you so wish - nowhere did Fisherman state that there were 200 people queuing or waiting/wanting to use a toilet just that *approximately 200 people who had paid for the use of toilet facilities* *were denied access *for facilities that they had paid for, rather like staying on a large site with swimming pool that maybe a 100 out of the 500 people staying there would use only to find that the pool was closed denying access to 500 people.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Val54 said:


> I'm not underestimating CMC's longer term problems Marie,  but I'm guessing there was no immediate reaction from management when things started to go wrong early on. It was a simple fix to close all toilet facilities and make everyone use their own vans. Equally Dynarod (other firms are available) are on 24 hour call out so I don't buy in to CMC's decision to close rather than call in help. As you say CMC have a track record for not spending money where its needed.



You are probably right there, Dave.

But the club have been spending a fair sum the last couple of years jumping on the latest 'fad' bandwagon by installing those daft holiday 'pods' etc. on some of their sites, then expecting wardens to just absorb the extra work required to clean and turn them around in between bookings.That's enough extra work already without factoring in the sudden arrival of covid...

It is self evident in many of the recent scenarios outlined by my friends working for the club (both pre and post-covid, btw) that head office 'management' who make these sort of business decisions don't seem seem to have much experience or wisdom under their belts when it comes to the hospitality industry. Maybe it's an age thing? Or not hiring the right people at the top? At the very least they don't seem to follow it through properly when it comes to the sharp end/operational side of the job. Get the pound of flesh from the staff as much as possible, if it means more work for those down at the bottom, so what?

But hey, I don't claim that's a problem unique to the C&MC these days !


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## brian c (Sep 10, 2020)

Ref 200 people denied access to the toilet they had paid to use.     If you don’t want to use the toilet how can access be denied  ,    If it had said.    Off the 200 who had paid to use the toilet some found that they were denied access. Then yes. I would agree. Because to me you can’t be denied something you don’t want    I am not knocking him or his thread  someone standing up for his rights , great.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Pipe it down re Bill.

Covid or no covid, 20, 200 or 2,000 people queuing no difference - his point is absolutely valid.
The C&MC are like a lot of other organisations right now, i.e. totally on the back foot and disorganised or way too slow to get on top of the game, whims and 'guideline' changing by govt. notwithstanding.

This does NOT give them the right to rip people off, which is essentially what is happening here.

I have every sympathy for businesses losing money due to the pandemic, but I have no sympathy for profiteering and sloppy/lazy management, no matter *what* the sector


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

brian c said:


> Ref 200 people denied access to the toilet they had paid to use.     If you don’t want to use the toilet how can access be denied  ,    If it had said.    Off the 200 who had paid to use the toilet some found that they were denied access. Then yes. I would agree. Because to me you can’t be denied something you don’t want    I am not knocking him or his thread  someone standing up for his rights , great.


If you read post #4 properly it doesn't say 200 people were denied access ................. there is an important additional word "possibly" ........


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## runnach (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Pipe it down re Bill.
> 
> Covid or no covid, 20, 200 or 2,000 people queuing no difference - his point is absolutely valid.
> The C&MC are like a lot of other organisations right now, i.e. totally on the back foot and disorganised or way too slow to get on top of the game, whims and 'guideline' changing by govt. notwithstanding.
> ...


Equally when sites re opened folk received e mails suggesting that things were as close to normal as possible but we knew it wasn’t as per pre covid.

Interpretation of government guidelines which are fragmented don’t help either.

Whether Bill has a valid complaint is for the cmc to decide


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## brian c (Sep 10, 2020)

If you read post one. Which is the one I read and quoted his words.   He has pm me.  This was I thought dealt with ages ago until it was raised again in post 89.    So from my post to post 89 I had piped down.    My post was referred to highlighted. So I replied to it.    Why do threads about toilets get so heated.  I sincerely hope this thread which as previously stated  .bill is standing up for. Great does not go the same way as the other toilet thread. Brian


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Toilets are actually incredibly important, as has been illustrated right the way through lockdown and up to today.

That's why threads have become extra heated because the virus has closed down or minimised access to public/shared facilities and they play a big part in wild camping, whether that be using the one in your van, where to empty it when it's full, and, in this latter case, whether or not you can have access to the public toilets on a paid for campsite.

People get passionate about all sorts of things and can often take things to heart where possibly no harm was intended.

Forums/social media have always been dangerous places if used as the only method of communication ...


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## sparrks (Sep 10, 2020)

brian c said:


> Ref 200 people denied access to the toilet they had paid to use.     If you don’t want to use the toilet how can access be denied  ,    *If it had said.    Off the 200 who had paid to use the toilet some found that they were denied access. Then yes. I would agree.* Because to me you can’t be denied something you don’t want    I am not knocking him or his thread  someone standing up for his rights , great.


I disagree as that comment suggests only *some* were denied access and others were allowed access.


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Toilets are actually incredibly important, as has been illustrated right the way through lockdown and up to today.
> 
> That's why threads have become extra heated because the virus has closed down or minimised access to public/shared facilities and they play a big part in wild camping, whether that be using the one in your van, where to empty it when it's full, and, in this latter case, whether or not you can have access to the public toilets on a paid for campsite.
> 
> ...



It's also true from what I've seen that we (me included) have become too quick to take a thread off at a tangent. Probably a product of the times as I'm sure we didn't use to do it so frequently and we apologised when we did. For me it has got to the point that I include  the appropriate emoji at the end of a light hearted post just in case people think I'm being serious.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Val54 said:


> It's also true from what I've seen that we (me included) have become too quick to take a thread off at a tangent. Probably a product of the times as I'm sure we didn't use to do it so frequently and we apologised when we did. For me it has got to the point that I include  the appropriate emoji at the end of a light hearted post just in case people think I'm being serious.



Stuck at home more, going stir crazy, bored... ???


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## Val54 (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Stuck at home more, going stir crazy, bored... ???


All of those


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## landoboguy (Sep 10, 2020)

Phiiiiiiiiil.
please pop back and freeze threads when needed , pleeeeease


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

Nothing to see here, move along to the next thread folks... ?


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## Penny13 (Sep 11, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> If I paid to stay on a site with facilities I would still be using ours. The only place we use facilities is on a marina we stay at. They are immaculate.


Immaculate doesn’t mean they are safe


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 11, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Immaculate doesn’t mean they are safe


You're right there, I was merely thinking of cleanliness. COVID clean is another thing entirely.


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## Penny13 (Sep 11, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> You're right there, I was merely thinking of cleanliness. COVID clean is another thing entirely.


Hi hope your both ok. There is a difference in spotless toilets. Someone is taking the time on the small things and they are fab when you find them. But if they have cleaned the whole place with the same cloths it’s contaminated  
We all just need to be very careful. Take your own disinfect wipes and loo roll. Wash wash wash your hands


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## Robmac (Sep 11, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Hi hope your both ok. There is a difference in spotless toilets. Someone is taking the time on the small things and they are fab when you find them. But if they have cleaned the whole place with the same cloths it’s contaminated
> We all just need to be very careful. Take your own disinfect wipes and loo roll. Wash wash wash your hands



At our Marina Penny (which is the one Sharon refers to). Along with the normal soap, there is hand sanitizer and a spray sanitizer for surfaces. Only paper towels are supplies for cleaning surfaces and toilet seats etc after spraying with the sanitizer and only one person is allowed in the toilet block at a time.

Obviously it is up to the individual how scrupulously they stick to the rules, but apart from putting CCTV in there the only other option would be to close them down and leave just the Elsan disposal point open.

I must say though that I feel perfectly safe using the facilities and I think they have done as much as they possibly can.


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 11, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Hi hope your both ok. There is a difference in spotless toilets. Someone is taking the time on the small things and they are fab when you find them. But if they have cleaned the whole place with the same cloths it’s contaminated
> We all just need to be very careful. Take your own disinfect wipes and loo roll. Wash wash wash your hands


We're good thanks, though struggling for places to stay in the MH, hence the marina.

I suppose the only place you are really safe is at home, within your own household. Sad times.


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## mickymost (Sep 11, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> We're good thanks, though struggling for places to stay in the MH, hence the marina.
> 
> I suppose the only place you are really safe is at home, within your own household. Sad times.





It is what it is unfortunately.Basically if you have to go away in your Motorhome or Campervan and dont feel happy wilding only go to a Campsite being one of the two clubs (if a member)or private sites and only if you have your own Facilities. Dont bother with site Toilets and showers simple. And if the site is lacking on maintenance i/e grass not cut etc dont get annoyed about it and then writing to management to complain as the staff have their hands tied with other more important Covid19 duties.

Sharon times are sad but as long as one is alive and safe thats all thats important.


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## mickymost (Sep 11, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Hi hope your both ok. There is a difference in spotless toilets. Someone is taking the time on the small things and they are fab when you find them. But if they have cleaned the whole place with the same cloths it’s contaminated
> We all just need to be very careful. Take your own disinfect wipes and loo roll. Wash wash wash your hands




Penny hope your site is supplying an endless supply of cleaning cloths and other cleaning products to keep you safe.I feel for you.


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## Penny13 (Sep 11, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Penny hope your site is supplying an endless supply of cleaning cloths and other cleaning products to keep you safe.I feel for you.


Hum I am using blue roll it just throws away after I clean each item, but it’s not a good thing for the environment. I will use cloths next year colour coded ones  I wash the mop heads.
We where given our PPE by concerned seasonal’s, our boss bought our boiler suits, two flimsy masks and provides gloves. We do have a shower each that the campers do not use. 
Thank you for being kind it has been tough but the reality is it tough on a all of us.


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## Annsman (Sep 11, 2020)

As someone who worked for one of the major clubs, I, and other staff, long thought people should show a certified photo of their own bathrooms, rather than a membership card, to get on site! What some people did in the facilities defies belief from anyone living in the 21st century! And that was before Covid! I’m not condoning the actions of the staff, but I can understand it. BTW, site staff are trained to clean professionally as part of their initial training. Whether they all do it correctly all the time is another question. But you could say the same about anyone, in any job.


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## Tookey (Sep 12, 2020)

Penny13 said:


> Hum I am using blue roll it just throws away after I clean each item, but it’s not a good thing for the environment. I will use cloths next year colour coded ones  I wash the mop heads.
> We where given our PPE by concerned seasonal’s, our boss bought our boiler suits, two flimsy masks and provides gloves. We do have a shower each that the campers do not use.
> Thank you for being kind it has been tough but the reality is it tough on a all of us.


I have to frequently use the domestics blue roll to wipe up after plumbing and strongly suspect that it is already recycled from the feel of it so don't worry too much   

Although domestics used to use colour coded mops and wash them at the HC's unfortunately that can't do that anymore (not covid related) and use disposable cloths that strap on to a head, terrible wastage


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## slowgiles (Sep 13, 2020)

As someone who has stayed on around 20 CMC sites since the beginning of July, covering the South coast of England, Lake District and both East and west coast of Scotland to name a few places. I would say in general the sites have been well run and not had any issues. The staff are putting up with a lot and I feel a lot safer using thier facilities than others. The only negative I have seen, is fellow users, either not using the band system or just not bothering to clean up after then. They are sadly everywhere in life these days..........
Most people are in caravans or MH's or camper vans that have thier own facilities (how else are you wild camping otherwise?). That includes me. The people that lose out are those that are camping, as they don't have other options unless they go to the local pub etc. I'm also a member of the camping and caravan club, which is great for fields to park on cheaper than CMC, but some sites were telling MH and caravan owners to use thier own facilities to leave the mains ones for the campers. I dont have a problem with that, as they reduced the price, which is probably what should have happened here.


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## Technispark (Sep 13, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> On the 4 August the warden at Culloden Moor campsite closed the toilet facilities for almost 24 hours.
> I wrote to the club to complain and yesterday I received this email.
> I have also posted my reply posted tonight.
> Generally speaking I have been pleased with my stays at their campsites, but what happened here was simply not on.
> ...


I would agree wholeheartedly with you over this. It demonstrates the mindset of the club. When I worked for them over a decade ago I was aware of a very military approach to management and it spills over to the customers. However I think the whole thing is down to lack of committed staff at the coal face.  Hence we have some sites not re-opening at all and those which are open over full and under staffed.  There was a lot of money to be made up here in the Highlands this summer but most of the places we have been to where cafes have been closed and campsites closed it has been due to the lack of availability of staff. Even those which are open seem to be relying on recruiting staff from the south of the uk who have been laid off from other jobs.  
BUT to open a site without toilet facilities is to my mind just taking the pxxx !


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