# 'No overnight stays''



## Jazzbow (Mar 29, 2015)

Just for clarification please.
In Scotland there needs to be stated on the signage the by-law and the penalty otherwise it is non-enforcable, i.e you cannot be moved on?

We just got back from Langleeford in Northumberland National Park there were a few signs stating no overnight stays which we duly ignored. A guy knocks on our door with a warning that the park authorities would be along shortly to move us on. Nobody appeared but I was ready with my response, then it occurred to me that the 'rules' in England may be different!

Can anyone confirm the legal postion regarding this for both Scotland and England?

Thanks


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## izwozral (Mar 29, 2015)

Anybody who doesn't identify himself & warns you that somebody will be along to 'move you on', can sling his hook as far as I am concerned. I doubt he will be saying it from the goodness of his heart, it will be more likely that he is a busybody jobsworth with nothing better to do than make himself feel important. Such people occupy no place in my life, nor should they yours imho. 
Scotland is far more civilised & relaxed regarding wilding, England comes a very poor second. I haven't wilded in Wales or Ireland yet so can't comment on them but no doubt England would come a poor fourth, if I was qualified to comment.


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## Robmac (Mar 29, 2015)

As far as I am aware, signs should be backed up by a TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) whether in England or Scotland, otherwise they are not enforceable.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 29, 2015)

It is against the Road Traffic Act to set up an encampment on the highway that includes lay-bys and roadside verges.  Defining what constitutes an emcampment at present is a minefield.

Information supplied by Cumbria County Council
Wildcamping/Wildparking – Unauthoriesed encampments

On Highways land
 On Highways land there is no provision to authorise encampments on public highways. All encampments will be deemed obstructions and therefore ‘not allowed’. The Highways Act allows for removal of unauthorised obstructions.

 Common law rights to recover land from trespassers are also available to local authorities over land they occupy.

 Local authorities can take action as landowners through civil actions against trespass using Civil Procedure Rules Part 55, heard in a County Court.

 Local authorities have powers given by the Criminal Justice and Public Order 1994 ss77 and 78. These require cases to be brought in the Magistrates' Court.
 DoE Circular 18/94 provides guidance to local authorities on the exercise of s77 powers

 Police can also use their powers under s61 of the CJPOA, but again only in exceptional circumstances

 Regarding other unauthorised encampments( ie. on private land) there is no specific legislative duty placed on local authorities to deal with unauthorised encampments.

Private land
 On private land where an encampment is established with the consent of the landowner, District Councils may take planning enforcement action, or prosecute for running a caravan site without a site license.

 The Police have parallel powers granted by s61 of the CJPOA. Action under s61 is normally much quicker than under s77, and the welfare considerations less onerous

Police Powers
 The Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 added s61A and 62A into the CJPOA which give Police enhanced eviction powers in circumstances where there are suitable pitches on relevant sites to accommodate the caravans affected.


Measures for Enforcing against Pollution, Littering and Fly-Tipping 

Water Resources Act 1991 (as amended by the Environment Act 1995) gives the Environment Agency powers to prosecute those found illegally depositing waste into controlled waters and causing a pollution offence.

Environmental Protection Act 1990 (as amended by the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005) makes fly-tipping a criminal offence with a maximum penalty of a £20,000 fine and/or imprisonment up to 6 months (unlimited fine or imprisonment of up to 5 years if convicted at a Crown Court). The Government has asked the Environment Agency to vigorously prosecute any person found to be illegally disposing of waste, where they have evidence. The waste collection authority and the Environment Agency may remove fly-tipped waste and recover costs from those responsible for causing the offence. The Environment Agency has set up an emergency telephone hotline (0800 807060) for members of the public to notify them of fly tipping (and water pollution incidents). The National Fly-Tipping Prevention Group includes a number of national organisations.

Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 extends the offence of dropping litter on all types of land, including water, which is open to the air and to which the public have access.

Environment Protection Act 1990 (Part III) gives local authorities powers to act against statutory nuisances (prejudicial to health or a nuisance). Local authorities can serve an abatement notice, which can be appealed. Failure to comply with an abatement notice is an offence.

Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 extends the range of powers available to local authorities for dealing with fly tipping, for instance, by giving them powers to search and seize vehicles suspected of being used for fly tipping and to investigate incidents.

Highways Act 1980 s.149 allows the Highways Authority to serve notice on persons who have deposited items on a highway which constitute a nuisance. 

So, no action unless you refuse to move.  Then they have to seek powers to move you on.   In all cases the Local Authority/Highway agent must call at a reasonable hour to discus your intentions.

What are Motor Vehicles?  We must determine here, is the act of sleeping, cooking or eating in a parked motor vehicle CAMPING or PARKING?
Motorhomes are motor vehicles, in the same way as Coaches and HGVs with sleeping provision are Motor Vehicles, not Caravans.  The primary legislation governing Motorhomes is that of Motor Vehicles.  They should only be treated under that legislation, and not that of caravans.

Car Parks
The Department for Communities and Local Government has recently taken over responsibility for off-street parking on both private and public land from the Department for Transport. 

There is currently a consultation underway at https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/parking-reform-tackling-unfair-practices.   Send your comments in by 27 May 2015 11:45pm


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## Jazzbow (Mar 29, 2015)

@ John T- not as straightforward as I had hoped! I was thinking along the lines of @robmac and the TRO's this is what has happened near us on east loch lomond.


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## maingate (Mar 29, 2015)

izwozral said:


> Anybody who doesn't identify himself & warns you that somebody will be along to 'move you on', can sling his hook as far as I am concerned. I doubt he will be saying it from the goodness of his heart, it will be more likely that he is a busybody jobsworth with nothing better to do than make himself feel important. Such people occupy no place in my life, nor should they yours imho.
> Scotland is far more civilised & relaxed regarding wilding, England comes a very poor second. I haven't wilded in Wales or Ireland yet so can't comment on them but no doubt England would come a poor fourth, if I was qualified to comment.



I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.

I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 29, 2015)

maingate said:


> I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.
> 
> I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.



National Parks are classed as authorities same as any branch of local government.  Yes, the National Parks have By-Laws that can affect your position but they also have to abide by the  Criminal Justice and Public Order 1994 restrictions.

Civility costs nothing.

Respect !  Is a code adopted in France.

R espect nature
E lect not to park in groups
S elect appropriate places only
P refer local shops
E xpress yourself politely and discretely
C ommunicate with others
T ake up these commitments


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 29, 2015)

Robmac said:


> As far as I am aware, signs should be backed up by a TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) whether in England or Scotland, otherwise they are not enforceable.



You are correct Rob, but some local authorities don't give any regard for the legislation.   North Berwick's "No Motorhome Parking" signs have no legal backing, and the authority East Lothian Council acknowledged this after an FOI request.  They erect signs to placate irate residents.   They acknowledge that there are no logged incidents to justify such a ban, just anecdotal evidence.   They failed to get a by-law through the Scottish Government to ban Motorhome parking and have so far not taken the next step of a legal TRO, as that would involve consultation before implementation.  Instead they just erected frightener signs.

A TRO is a civil matter.  A By-Law creates a criminal offence.  Aberdeen City also had a By-Law rejected by the Scottish Government but the council has instructed its officers to continue to pursue that matter.  (last info on this was February this year).  That By-Law would have made it a criminal offence to *use or occupy* a Motorhome/Campervan in parts of Aberdeen City between 6pm and 6am.  (this amendment was proposed to Aberdeen City by Waitrose although they don't have a store in Aberdeen).


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 29, 2015)

Jazzbow said:


> @ John T- not as straightforward as I had hoped! I was thinking along the lines of @robmac and the TRO's this is what has happened near us on east loch lomond.



We at the Motorhome Tourism Organisation responded formally to the proposal to extend the LL&TTNPA bylaw.   I have just returned from Spain so will have to check for any new developments.


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## izwozral (Mar 29, 2015)

maingate said:


> I disagree with your first point. It appears that he was parked on land which is part of a National Park. If true, then different rules apply. The person who spoke to the OP was probably just trying to be helpful as being local, he knew what was liable to occur.
> 
> I hope that if you are ever in a similar position, you do not fly off the handle with a stranger. Civility costs nothing. Lack of it reflects badly on all of us.



I tend not to' fly off the handle' with strangers, it isn't part of my personality. Firstly, I would enquire in what capacity or interest they have in that particular spot that I am parked. Secondly, I would tell them that i intend to park for one night only & when I leave they will find no trace that I had ever been there.
Thirdly, if the person spoke with a nasal twang & said 'you can't do that' emulating a Paul Whitehouse character & the said person is unable to provide a valid excuse why I can't park there, then they can sling their hook. If I was parked 250 yards from someone's house in a rural spot & they came with that attitude they would get  a negative response from me. 
We all have to behave responsibly when wilding & that means choosing spots that don't infringe peoples rights of access or wilding in protected areas etc but we do have a right to park where other vehicles can park. I tend not to wild where there are signs saying 'No Overnight Camping' because I don't want to be disturbed in the middle of the night by a copper.

In conclusion, I am 5' 7", the wrong side of 60 & not in the best of health, therefore, diplomacy is always my first choice simply because most people could beat the crap out of me!


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## Obanboy666 (Mar 29, 2015)

Have to say if i never go to a poi and find a sign stating no parking be it legal or illegal I would move on.
It's not worth the hassle and possible disturbance during the night. 
I would also move on if approached by anyone, official or not telling me it's out of order to park up. Pretty obvious I would was not welcome.


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## izwozral (Mar 29, 2015)

I truly believe that some people do not like to see others enjoying themselves or that they have the means to live a free-er life style. I don't know whether it boils down to jealousy or just plain miserableness. More & more aspects of our lives are being controlled & it appears to me that if you are not part of the greater masses, then you are an oddity or you need to be 'brought into line'.

I think I read a book once that predicted this insidious creep of control - I think it was around 1984 that I read it. If only I could remember what it was called


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## Jazzbow (Mar 29, 2015)

I wouldn't be impolite either- I think the chap was a farmer from down the road- possibly the same one that peeped his horn at 4.15 am! We were in the back of beyond, not bothering a soul. I just wondered what legalities were involved and if I could refuse a request to move on by a park ranger.
We were here: 55.49642, -2.07433 (or somewhere on this road there were a few spots)


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## Canalsman (Mar 29, 2015)

Jazzbow said:


> I wouldn't be impolite either- I think the chap was a farmer from down the road- possibly the same one that peeped his horn at 4.15 am! We were in the back of beyond, not bothering a soul. I just wondered what legalities were involved and if I could refuse a request to move on by a park ranger.
> We were here: 55.49642, -2.07433 (or somewhere on this road there were a few spots)



This is a spot in the Wild Camp POIs.

Can you tell me if there were signs at this location?

The other posters are correct that there are bye-laws that apply to National Parks that restrict overnight parking in some cases.

I would think the chances of being moved on at this spot are very limited, and the farmer may have had earlier experience with thoughtless people overnighting.

I have only once been advised that I should not be parking overnight, and it was acceptable to the complainant just to acknowledge politely what was said and promise to move on in the morning ...


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## AIKIDOMO (Mar 29, 2015)

Looking at where you were, not too far from a dirty great campsite at Woolar maybe he thought why don't you go there. You were in the middle of nowhere, he might be worried about his sheep as well. I would have stayed as well as you were not really doing anyone or any thing any harm.


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## ricc (Mar 29, 2015)

most of the legistlation referred to earlier is aimed at groups of "travellers" who travel in groups park up for weeks and generally make a mess,  any enforcement requires an application to a court. the process is a nighmare for private landowners.

off of council carparks , in the absence of a properly signed tro
theres nothing in place to allow any official or officer to instantly demand any one move on from a safe parking place. or to impose fines or parking fees.

railway property or national parks may well have some different rules.
..but in the first instance youve got to be unlucky enough to be caught by an official (who has actually got some powers) ,  then you can start bullshiting about just stopped to watch the sunset,  have a cup of tea,  being too tired to drive safely, got a miagraine so need to rest for a few hours  or whatever


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## yorkslass (Mar 29, 2015)

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe any sign, to be lawful, has to have details of the relevant legislation  , which is found on a metal plate on the back of the sign. ???


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## trevskoda (Mar 29, 2015)

good heavens all those years i have been boiling a 12 volt kettle in my car and having 40 winks making me a crim,should i hand myself in or is someone here going to dob me in. The worlds gone mad.


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## jake (Mar 29, 2015)

oTHER HANDY STAYEMENT VAN has broken down & waiting for AA or some other garage to arrive but not expected to be fixed:idea-007: until morning when I shall be on my way as soon as possible!:idea-007:


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## GWAYGWAY (Mar 29, 2015)

Blame the P***Ys  the paranoia is all about them coming to an area and setting up camp.  The locals can get shirty about you as anyone in a van is one of those .  They do not realise you are a respectable person ?????.. I could always say sorry, but I am out of driving and duty time so I must park up for an 8 hour break. Mine is an HGV after all.  The other thing is if I parked there and left the van to go to a B&B across the road could and would they complain.
The thing is when I have locked down for the night other than the heater exhaust, there is no way anybody can say we are in there, no light and no noise. Just a parked van.


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## n brown (Mar 29, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> good heavens all those years i have been boiling a 12 volt kettle in my car and having 40 winks making me a crim,should i hand myself in or is someone here going to dob me in. The worlds gone mad.


 a kettle boiler and a winker ! no wonder we are being banished from the ancestral laybys of our forefathers, etc


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 30, 2015)

yorkslass said:


> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe any sign, to be lawful, has to have details of the relevant legislation  , which is found on a metal plate on the back of the sign. ???



That legislation has changed (March 2015) with more relaxed regulations in the (Traffic Signs Design and Guidance Regulations)TSDGR 2015.   This has removed some of the prescriptive regulation in designing road signs.  I am unable as yet to find a copy of the new regulations online (only the consultation documents of 2014) but some authorities are implementing some of the relaxed measures already (Width of parking bays).  This is what this coalition government has described as "Hands off Government".  Until we can get our hands on the new regulations we are unable to answer you question yorklass.


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## trevskoda (Mar 30, 2015)

n brown said:


> a kettle boiler and a winker ! no wonder we are being banished from the ancestral laybys of our forefathers, etc



thank goodness you did not make a typo error there.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 30, 2015)

David it is worse than you think.

After 400+ FOI requests to councils and other authorities the range of things you can get a PCN for is frightening.

You cannot remain in your parked car for longer than it takes to park it or remove it from a parking bay.
You cannot run you engine except to move the vehicle.
You cannot raise your voice. or sound your horn.
Where you display your parking ticket is stated.  This varies from authority to authority.
One authority even states a 30cm max overhang front or rear.  This authority also has restricted parking bay size to 4.8m by 2.4m.
Weight limits of 1,525kg or 2,000kg apply in a lot of car parks.   The majority have 3,000kg to 3,500kg limits.  Not often visible on entry
York City bans any vehicle equipped for sleeping from any of its city car parks 24/7, even if it fits under the height barrier and fits into a marked bay.  You have to use the out of town P&R sites and they are restricted to day use only.  This is termed wrong type of vehicle.
Wrong type of vehicle applies to many car parks.  it is also applied to Coach and Lorry parking as well as disabled bays. 
One authority even stated its car parks are provided for local residents, not for visitors.
In some trailers are banned.  In others the trailer must be attached at all times, but two tickets purchased, however this authority banned a vehicle that overhung its bays from purchasing an extra ticket.  Another insisted that the trailer must be detached and treated as a separate vehicle.
There are also no overnight parking bans in unlocked car parks.

There is little provision for vehicles over 6m long and between 3,500kg and 7,500kg.


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## Jazzbow (Mar 30, 2015)

*Poi*



POI Admin said:


> This is a spot in the Wild Camp POIs.
> 
> Can you tell me if there were signs at this location?
> 
> ...



Hi yes, we got the spot from the POI's and there were a few signs the length of the road.


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## Jazzbow (Mar 30, 2015)

If you'd like to get back to me when you've read it, that'd be great hahaha


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## Pugs (Mar 30, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> David it is worse than you think.
> 
> After 400+ FOI requests to councils and other authorities the range of things you can get a PCN for is frightening.
> 
> ...



This is unbelievable, i'm glad i moved up to Scotland. I believe the Highland Council are in the process of removing 'No overnight parking' signs...


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## antiquesam (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm afraid Councils take whatever opportunity they can to exert power. It was in Winchester where the Leader has resigned for allowing a developer, who had won a Tender, to develop a large slice of this beautiful town to remove most of the public amenities, the number of affordable houses and the structure of the buildings without putting the contract out to tender again, but, like most Councillors he thought he had the power to do as his party wished. It was only intense public protest that got it sent for approval, where the development was described as being not in keeping even for an industrial estate.


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## izwozral (Mar 30, 2015)

Slightly off topic but why do the Highways Agency erect 'Maintained by the Highway Agency' signs along motorways? This seems to me a great waste of money, man power & smacks of self aggrandisement not to mention adding an already proliferation of of road signs.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 30, 2015)

The Highways Agency signs have a phone number for you to report problems.  They are not advertising.


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## izwozral (Mar 30, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> The Highways Agency signs have a phone number for you to report problems.  They are not advertising.



I am pretty sure they don't John but for the life of me I can't find one on the net to show the ones I mean. I think they have a website in small lettering at the bottom which is a bit silly when you are driving past at 60-70 mph. They were every couple of miles or so on the M6 going through the Lakes heading up to Carlisle, to be honest I can't remember spotting this particular sign elsewhere.


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## st3v3 (Mar 30, 2015)

izwozral said:


> I am pretty sure they don't John but for the life of me I can't find one on the net to show the ones I mean. I think they have a website in small lettering at the bottom which is a bit silly when you are driving past at 60-70 mph. They were every couple of miles or so on the M6 going through the Lakes heading up to Carlisle, to be honest I can't remember spotting this particular sign elsewhere.



This?

UK County Spends $140K on Road Ownership Signs


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## izwozral (Mar 30, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> This?
> 
> UK County Spends $140K on Road Ownership Signs



That's the one. Thanks. The article just about says it all.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 31, 2015)

Thanks David  Dyslexia rules.


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## Deleted member 967 (Mar 31, 2015)

I have just had a quick read but all seems to be as before with a few new signs defined.   There is still only one sign relating to "Caravans drawn by a motor vehicle & Motor Caravan" Parking as before, that sign shows where parking is permitted.   There again is no prescribed sign banning Motor Caravans.   

I will now have to contact DfT to check if the "No Waiting" sign (Sign R) will still be applicable as an approved sign. (A sign given approval by the Secretary of State)  

There is still no provision for motorhome dump signs despite it being recommended for inclusion, or any Motor Caravan prescribed signage.  This is still only a draft and things could have changed before it is implemented.  

I have only had a quick read so I will have to go through it when I get more time.

David.  North Berwick certainly weren't  embarrassed when confirming that the signs they had erected had no legal backing.


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## maureenandtom (Mar 31, 2015)

Now, now... let's have no more talk like that around here.

Before you know it this thread will be swamped with inane conversations about beer.

And before the country's leading authority on ... well, on everything really, has a chance to comment:

this is what the East Lothian council told me it is relying on.  _We, the council, can do whaever we want - and here's the proof._

Local Government in Scotland Act 2003














 I never did reply to East Lothian council.

Now, about that beer...?


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## Debroos (Mar 31, 2015)

maureenandtom said:


> Now, now... let's have no more talk like that around here.
> 
> Before you know it this thread will be swamped with inane conversations about beer.
> 
> ...



Doesn't that mean the council has to look after our well being too?


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## alcam (Mar 31, 2015)

[No message]


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## Jazzbow (Mar 31, 2015)

I emailed Northumbria national Park:
Hi there, under the Freedom of information Act 2000 I would like if you could provide me with a copy of the legislation or by-law which makes overnight stays/ camping in the park illegal, and the penalties involved. 
I come from Scotland where the law is slightly different, the signage needs to state the above, yours doesn’t.
Thanks in advance
Dawn 


Response:
The main purpose of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (right to roam) was to create a statutory right of access on foot to certain types of open land. Additionally, it made changes to the law governing public rights of way and strengthened nature conservation legislation.

I’ve attached a couple of links below to the legislation 

https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000



This legislation came in to effect in Northumberland National Park in 2005 and unfortunately provisions were not made within the Act to allow wild camping. As such, there remains no statutory right to wild camp in England and Wales, without the express permission of the landowner. Though it's “usually” unlikely to happen in remote areas, a landowner would be perfectly entitled to ask you to move on, which unfortunately you found to be the case.



This new legislation does seem to have missed a trick south of the border because it also does not give a right to cycle, horse ride, fish etc etc and again permission for these has to be obtained from the landowner.



I hope this helps to explain and that you enjoyed your visit to the National Park despite this.


I then emailed and asked if I'd be breaking the law if I didn't move on, her response:

I suppose in effect it could be classed as trespass and it would be for the landowner to take it further (not that likely I would hope as northumbrian’s are a friendly bunch).


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## Deleted member 967 (Apr 1, 2015)

This was announced just as parliament was about to be dissolved.   I have responded to the consultaion pointing out the lack of parking provision for vehicles over 6m.  Height Barrier problems.  and stressing that there is a difference between Parking and Camping which many authorities do not recognise.   The more we respond to these issues the better.

There is no real acknowledgment that Motor Caravans as vehicles exist, in Road Traffic law.   No mention in the Highway Code and there is no definitive recognition in legislation regarding speed etc.  We are left to guess if they are governed by passenger vehicle legislation or that of goods vehicles.


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## pheasantplucker (Apr 10, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> David it is worse than you think.
> 
> After 400+ FOI requests to councils and other authorities the range of things you can get a PCN for is frightening.
> 
> ...



I understand that travelling to Cornwall is now pointless as motorhomes are banned from council carparks at any time.


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