# Yes, the one about refilling 907 Camping Gaz bottles.



## Jelloman

Hello,

 Given the scandalous prices for the minuscule amount of gas in a 907 bottle, I'd like to show you a rig I've come up for DIY refill. I propose using the gravity decanting method, as seen on the net.Useful and constructive criticism always welcome.
Now all you folks that get nervous and upset by this kind of thing better look away. 


​

 apart from the camping gaz adapter all other parts from http://www.bes.co.uk/products/063.asp

P.S. Please resist the urge to tell me how I'm going to die and take countless innocent lives with me. I am a grown up and even have a note from my mum.


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## Deleted member 3802

:ninja: flame suit on await incoming


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## rickboy

*Works  o.k.  for me and 1/2 of Africa*

You show a pol propane fitting..
I have only used butane as a donor bottle.Depends on the appliance or regulator you are going to use on the 907.Would work with almost any depends how fussy you are. 

Can take a couple of hours to refill.(has to force air out of the empty bottle into the donor)
I let the donor bottle expell any air in the pipes befor connecting to the 907.

DO NOT FILL TO THE TOP ONLY 3/4 OR LESS OR IT WILL END IN TEARS.

YOU REALISE YOU HAVE OPENED A HORNETS NEST WITH THIS ONE!!!


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## vwalan

hi . that system works fine. i use a piece of orange high pressure hose and either butane both ends or swap one for the propane fitting. worked well since february 1998. its even got the date on. hee hee. not much use in most of africa . better to exchasnge bottles for 60pence. could be a quid now . when i used it to go around africa i had the propane 19kg bottle on the roof of the vw made it esiaer to tip. got right down in maroc then found it was so cheap to exchange never bothered from then on. got as far as gambia then came back. bottle never blew up or exploded . bought a maroc bottle for further use in the years after . at the time was 3quid including the gas in 1999. or 45 dirham. still 45 dirham but thats 4.50 quid now. 
if you use the camping to butane fitting you can add an adapter to get it to a female pol fitting then an ebay adaptor to fill at the pumps  . 
low flying remarks on the horizon. hard hats being fitted . cheers alan.


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## rickboy

*Real wildcamper !!*

Spoken like a true  wildcamper.!! Self- sufficient


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## Deleted member 207

I'd be inclined to use a set of old manual scales to make sure that the cartridge was not filled beyond 80% liquid capacity. Though I think underfilling maybe more of a problem as pressure is equalised between the big bottle and the cartridge.


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## vwalan

hi .yes scales are the answer i use a set of spring balance scales . reimo have them in their catologue just for this . it may suprise many but you can get bottles identical to our blue camping gas but red in some countries they contain propane. weighing is always the safest bet. but dont worry underfilling doesnt cause a problem . it just runs out quicker. . keep the bottom bottle cool pour boiling hot water on the top one helps get the gas out. .i do have a manual lpg gas pump used to empty the last bit out. it is made by krugg in the states . bought it off a yank in the 70,s was usefull for filling the lpg tank in my car in the 70,s -80,s when lpg wasnt so common . they are still made . you do see modern pumps on ebay sometimes . havent used mine for a while but its a goodnbit of kit . bit like a turffer winch system. there are systems for filling the screw on tin containers but i must say i have never done those. its all on the web. but there is a limit . i try to push mine but ..... i have ran uk appliances on butane propane using both 28and 37mbr regs i cant tell the differance . it did bother me at first but i was told it makes no differance and it does appear it doesnt. purists of course will say it does . but if you are deep in africa or half way to india you use what you can get . amazingly it works. but always bewarey do take care .  if in doubt dont try it. perhaps i shopuld say i used to make my own lpg car conversions in the early days and have always experimented all my life . i realise many havent ,wont . and maybe shouldnt. 
cheers alan.


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## Bernard Jones

rickboy said:


> Can take a couple of hours to refill.(has to force air out of the empty bottle into the donor)


 
Just to be pedantic the 'air' in the empty bottle should be gas, which is compressed into liquid as the bottle fills.  At the same time the liquid gas in the donor bottle expands into gas to fill the void.

Anyway good money saving idea if done in a well ventilated area and the bottle not overfilled as you say. 

Would be useful to identify the fittings required.

found this link on this website

http://www.gasequipmentdirect.co.uk/Store/Category/Regulators.aspx?gclid=COuAmen30KoCFQJO4Qod33CTzA


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## wints

Just back from re-filling my flogas 11 kg and 2 x calor 6 kgs.
72 p / litre, and the garage man said fill them yourself as he was busy.
PM me for garage location nr Chorley Lancs.
Allen


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## vwalan

hi, bernard had a quick look on the site you mention but cant see what you need . google bes .. they hav a catalogue ,on page 61 camping gaz cylinder valve camping gaz cylinder on base toaccept butane regulator (for example p/n 8807 on page51... you want a clip on adaptor to butane reg ex 8807. then can you get two tail ends to screw on the lh butane threads and a length of high pressure hose. couple of clips away you go . i also have one propane tail for filling bottles from a propane bottle . using the big pol lh propane fitting . possibly a good camping shop or motor home accesory shop weill have al the bits . they dont like to be told what its for but usually have it all. 
cheers alan


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## Bernard Jones

vwalan said:


> hi, bernard had a quick look on the site you mention but cant see what you need . google bes .. they hav a catalogue ,on page 61 camping gaz cylinder valve camping gaz cylinder on base toaccept butane regulator (for example p/n 8807 on page51... you want a clip on adaptor to butane reg ex 8807. then can you get two tail ends to screw on the lh butane threads and a length of high pressure hose. couple of clips away you go . i also have one propane tail for filling bottles from a propane bottle . using the big pol lh propane fitting . possibly a good camping shop or motor home accesory shop weill have al the bits . they dont like to be told what its for but usually have it all.
> cheers alan


 
Hi Alan,

Many Thanks for looking.  Unfortunately I get quite different items (electronic gas testers) on those page numbers - might be different computer display properties displaying different number of items per page.
If you could identify the part numbers I could find them.  The only one I have got so far is;
8807 	Butane nut x hose nozzle  WAS £3.09  NOW £2.69 - click here for web link: LPG Low Pressure Regulators (Single Stage)


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## vwalan

hi .bernard trypart no..8888camping gas valve .thats for the 907 bottle to adapt to take a butanr screw reg. 
then you need something like part no. 16642 but this one also must adapt to butane reg. its a clipon 21mm to old butane lh thread . the one i quot is a different thread . then you need two butane tails to fit the adaptors . if its too hard call 07971962361 maybe talking is easier . cheers alan.


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## runnach

vwalan said:


> hi .yes scales are the answer i use a set of spring balance scales .
> 
> weighing is always the safest bet. but dont worry underfilling doesnt cause a problem . it just runs out quicker.
> 
> i have ran uk appliances on butane propane using both 28and 37mbr regs i cant tell the differance . it did bother me at first but i was told it makes no differance and it does appear it doesnt. purists of course will say it does .
> cheers alan.



Indeed the gas companies use scales too. We sometimes get overfilled bottles from them the reason is the residue from the refining process especially in older bottles.

You can tell because the flame hovers over the hob ( the liquid gas has not gassed enough) We just run the hob for a couple of minutes and all settles down.

On regulators, when we issue certificates we allow a tolerance of  Plus/minus 5 mbr on the 28 / 37 mbr figures you quote.

Our butane regulators were locking up on average at 30 /31 mbr; So you can see you are within a nats whisker of the 32 mbr accepted tolerance for propane. The only problems I would foresee is if you have a faulty regulator. I had a butane locking up at 42 mbr far too much for butane.

On some newer vans now, I have seen it on hymers they are fitting 30 mbr regulators so you can run butane and propane. 

Channa


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## vwalan

hi, germany used to have two systems 30mbr and 50mbr . . mind thats only the outward pressure . both butane and propane are above that as a in going pressure . not quite sure what you mean about locking up. i fill the gaz bottles regularly with propane and run with a 27mbr reg . a standard camping gaz reg.. normally i do use ther old butane regs .but do sometimes use a propane 37mbr on my red propane bottle . cant tell any differance . i do know the gas lights prefer butane to propane though .much brighter on butane . regardless of what reg i use . try all sorts see if it works better .


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## runnach

vwalan said:


> hi, germany used to have two systems 30mbr and 50mbr . . mind thats only the outward pressure . both butane and propane are above that as a in going pressure .
> 
> not quite sure what you mean about locking up. .
> 
> 
> i do know the gas lights prefer butane to propane though .much brighter on butane . regardless of what reg i use . try all sorts see if it works better .


 
In italy we have variable regulators :rolleyes2:

By locking up I mean testing the pressure system side of the regulator using a manometer. This tells you at what mbr the regulator is allowing the gas to flow, and would indicate a faulty regulator if too low or high as explained last post.

The light thing I suspect is down to the fact butane has a higher calorific value than propane hence the reason propane regulators run at a higher pressure. To deliver the same bang for buck or thereabouts at the appliance 

Channa


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## vwalan

hi, thanks for that clears it up a bit . yes i understand about the butane being more dense thats why you get more wt. in a  bottle.
i also have varible regs . you can get them all over in morocco, good for adjusting the pressure if up in the mountains or down by the sea . did have a big old propane one a few yearas ago but let it go with a camper . can be handy for fine tuning . mind they tell me in north africa they use alot of pentane in the gas . it burns good in the hotter climates not so good up in northern europe . dont notice it here in the summer seems ok. but then similar temps to winter there. all good stuff though . cheers alan.


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## runnach

Ironically Alan, I was think of this thread today.

My colleague is an air con engineer and we got called to a job that required the unit re gassing........ and guess what all done with scales:rolleyes2:

Actually all quite high tech stuff, very strict rules becaus the gas is a cfc and absolutely no leakage from tha appliance is allowed whatsoever.

Channa


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## Bernard Jones

Jelloman said:


> Hello,
> 
> Given the scandalous prices for the minuscule amount of gas in a 907 bottle, I'd like to show you a rig I've come up for DIY refill. I propose using the gravity decanting method, as seen on the net.Useful and constructive criticism always welcome.
> Now all you folks that get nervous and upset by this kind of thing better look away.
> 
> View attachment 2316​
> 
> 
> P.S. Please resist the urge to tell me how I'm going to die and take countless innocent lives with me. I am a grown up and even have a note from my mum.



Well as Brownhills have just increased the price of their 907 refills from £19 to £24 :scared: I'm having a look at the BES catalogue, but its a little confusing when they use abbreviations and few illustrations.
Does anyone know what is the difference between a S/T nut - item 12649, and a N/T nut item 12645 please ?
link but might not be the right page, so may need to enter the item number into their search engine  - LPG Hose & Pigtail Assemblies
I found an illustration like the propane POL connector, presumably its item 8885 - nut and tail?

(I wondered if just the nut could be used with male hose end item 12651 or 12646 ?)

I think I found the camping gaz valve item 8888 ?


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## vwalan

hi. you may not find the ready made hose for this job. make your own from high pressure gas hose and some ends . i change one end from butane to propanr depending on the bottle i,m filling from. 
i have their catalogue in book form here . i cant see the same clipon valve i use . but look on the caravan regulator and fittings page item 16642   its a butane clip on but to a w20 thread on hose . 
possibly items 16639 propane 
and item 16640 butane will be the ready made hoses you need to join to a different camping gasadaptor item 16643. there on page 54 in my catalogue . 
i try to not use the w20 thread but use lh thread butane fitting . give a call its easier talking than keep writting . cheers alan.


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## Bernard Jones

Thanks for that Alan.  
looks like 16643 camping gaz adaptor, 16639 propane hose
I got this info from the safety sheets on the Calor website;
Propane: – at 15 deg C vapor pressure 7.5 bar, density 0.512 (water = 1.000)  
Butane:  – at 15 deg C vapor pressure 2 bar, density 0.575 (water = 1.000)  

going by that
907 contains 2.72 kg of Butane, same volume of propane would be 2.42kg which is 0.3kg or 0.66 pounds less. 

My 907 cylinders have their ratings stamped on the base;
But 3.00kg
Prop 2.50kg
PE 30 bar


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## runnach

That may all be fine on a new bottle, if I were you, I would underplay it slightly on the weight stakes on the basis residue will be at the bottom of the bottles.

consider butane and propane are by products of oil refinining a stenching agent so it smells is added. there will be some residue which needs to be accounted for 

Channa


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## maingate

I hope you lot are not making IED's for the next riot. :scared: :scared:


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## rickboy

*We should be*

We should be ,to stick underneath them,and that would be a waste of something good!


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## Bernard Jones

channa said:


> That may all be fine on a new bottle, if I were you, I would underplay it slightly on the weight stakes on the basis residue will be at the bottom of the bottles.
> 
> consider butane and propane are by products of oil refinining a stenching agent so it smells is added. there will be some residue which needs to be accounted for
> 
> Channa



Certainly Yes.  I am working on the weight of the new cylinders I have bought from Camping Gaz, less half a kilo for propane, then shake the cylinder to check you can feel the liquid sloshing about inside.

I mut admit I don't know whether the 30 bar stamped on the base of the 907 cylinders is test pressure or working pressure?
But in any case thats still 4 times the pressure of the gas inside.


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## Tony Lee




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## runnach

Blind leading the blind Tony you cynic.

I personally wouldnt try and refill a bottle but if someone should choose too so be it (however I would be grateful of prior warning so I  can vacate the vicinity ) 


Bernard the 30 bar stamped  I  think you will find is the tolerance of the bottle Butane is certainly nowhere near that pressure under normal circumstances;

Channa


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## Jelloman

*Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated*


 

My first attempt at refilling a 907 cylinder.
​Sorry for the delay on keeping up with this post. I must stress that it  is not due to the lack of WiFi in the burns unit OR me having to learn  how to type using only my arse, I've been busy that's all. Tried out my  filling rig the other day. Connected it all up, supply bottle upside  down, purged out air first AND _ - huge intake of breath - _ it  filled the 907 bottle up nice and quickly. Aww, I know some of you out  there were worried, but you can keep the flowers and fruit. If done  outside it is completely safe. Do wear working gloves as propane is a  wee bit on the cold side. Have a ciggie only _after_ you've finished.

Watch out for my next post as I show you how to use a sharp knife without cutting yourself!


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## Bernard Jones

channa said:


> Bernard the 30 bar stamped  I  think you will find is the tolerance of the bottle Butane is certainly nowhere near that pressure under normal circumstances;
> 
> Channa



Calor safety sheet says Butane is 2 bar, and propane 7.5 bar.  So I was concerned as to whether a butane cylinder would take the pressure of propane.
But my regulator says max input pressure 26 bar, and the 907 container is stamped 30 bar.  I don't know whether the 30 bar is safe working pressure or test pressure?  But either way we clearly have plenty of safety margin. 

The exchange 907 cylinder I got at the hardware shop in Albir (Spain) burns much better at low temperatures than camping gaz, so I can only guess they have put propane in it.

It also cost 11 euros, instead of the £24 in rip off Britain.


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## Bernard Jones

Jelloman said:


> purged out air first



I don't know what you mean?


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## Footpad

*Pressure equalisation*



Roger said:


> I'd be inclined to use a set of old manual scales to make sure that the cartridge was not filled beyond 80% liquid capacity. Though I think underfilling maybe more of a problem as pressure is equalised between the big bottle and the cartridge.


 
I always thought the pressure in one of these cylinders was fixed by the pressure required to liquefy the gas.

As gas is drawn off the pressure drops and more gas boils off to replace that used until the proper pressure is reached. 

Hence the pressure is constant (ish) until the last of the liquid gas boils off and your cylinder is to all intents and purposes empty.


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## maingate

All bottles should only be refilled (with liquid gas) to 80%. This is to leave a small volume for gas. This prevents liquified gas getting into the pipeline and reaching an appliance. This is not necessary for LPG tanks fitted to cars or mobile plant as it is a different system altogether.

What puzzles me is that when I have tried to refill a cigarette lighter from a (pressurised) aerosol can, I am lucky to get the lighter half full of gas before it stops. :sad:


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## Bernard Jones

maingate said:


> All bottles should only be refilled (with liquid gas) to 80%. This is to leave a small volume for gas. This prevents liquified gas getting into the pipeline and reaching an appliance.:



Or more importantly expanding and bursting the container

Perhaps your cigarette lighter has a different type (and therefore pressure) of gas than your refill?

Might help to use up all the gas then try to refill it?


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## ArenqueRojo

Bernard Jones said:


> Might help to use up all the gas then try to refill it?


Before you fill the lighter, vent all the remaining gas. It will fill much more easily. Even half full can be vented of gas (not liquid) and you can carry on filling till there is no gas only liquid. Try it. I have no idea why this works...
Patrick


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## Tbear

maingate said:


> All bottles should only be refilled (with liquid gas) to 80%. This is to leave a small volume for gas. This prevents liquified gas getting into the pipeline and reaching an appliance. This is not necessary for LPG tanks fitted to cars or mobile plant as it is a different system altogether.
> 
> What puzzles me is that when I have tried to refill a cigarette lighter from a (pressurised) aerosol can, I am lucky to get the lighter half full of gas before it stops. :sad:


 
Hi Maingate,

I think it down to temperature. When the gas in the lighter compresses it warms up. When the liquid in the lighter evaperates it cools therefore you have a temp difference so a back pressure builds up. Try putting lighter in deepfreezer for a couple of mins.

Richard.


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## Bernard Jones

Tbear said:


> Hi Maingate,
> 
> I think it down to temperature. When the gas in the lighter compresses it warms up. When the liquid in the lighter evaperates it cools therefore you have a temp difference so a back pressure builds up. Try putting lighter in deepfreezer for a couple of mins.
> 
> Richard.


 
I hadn't thought of that.  Now you mention it I think thats the answer, and explains why the cylinder is quicker to fill if its colder than the donor cylinder.


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## Jelloman

Bernard Jones said:


> I don't know what you mean?


 
Simply put, you open up the valve on the supply bottle, then quickly open and shut the valve to the 907 cylinder so liquid propane pushes out the air in the pipework. That way when you connect the 907 cylinder and open both valves only liquid propane comes through the setup.


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## Bernard Jones

Jelloman said:


> Simply put, you open up the valve on the supply bottle, then quickly open and shut the valve to the 907 cylinder so liquid propane pushes out the air in the pipework. That way when you connect the 907 cylinder and open both valves only liquid propane comes through the setup.


 
Ah, Good point, Yes.


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## Bernard Jones

*Success*

Well item 16643 (£8.51) does the job very well.  It has an on off tap and a butterfly screw on arrangement that makes it by far the easiest way to fit the hose.  
I then used hose 17802 (£6.16) and item 17917 (£6.99) to connect it to a Calor Patio Gas 13kg cylinder because thats the one I happen to have.  
But a Calor propane cylinder would be cheaper, and would only require item 16852 (£9.02) with the above 16643 (£8.51)
*I stood the 907 cylinder on scales to be sure I did not overfill it*  and was surprised to find it filled from empty to about 75% full in only 5 minutes.  This is much faster than the times I have seen quoted elsewhere.  Perhaps this is because I used a longer hose (1500mm) and consequently had a greater hight differential between the cylinders.  (also makes it easier to connect them up) Or perhaps its because the camping gaz adaptor I used (item 16643) has a wider bore, so the liquid gas flows more freely, I don't know.  But that can only be a good thing since it only takes 5 minutes I am not tempted to go away and leave it so it becomes overfilled.


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## cooljules

Bernard Jones said:


> Well item 16643 (£8.51) does the job very well.  It has an on off tap and a butterfly screw on arrangement that makes it by far the easiest way to fit the hose.
> I then used hose 17802 (£6.16) and item 17917 (£6.99) to connect it to a Calor Patio Gas 13kg cylinder because thats the one I happen to have.
> But a Calor propane cylinder would be cheaper, and would only require item 16852 (£9.02) with the above 16643 (£8.51)
> *I stood the 907 cylinder on scales to be sure I did not overfill it*  and was surprised to find it filled from empty to about 75% full in only 5 minutes.  This is much faster than the times I have seen quoted elsewhere.  Perhaps this is because I used a longer hose (1500mm) and consequently had a greater hight differential between the cylinders.  (also makes it easier to connect them up) Or perhaps its because the camping gaz adaptor I used (item 16643) has a wider bore, so the liquid gas flows more freely, I don't know.  But that can only be a good thing since it only takes 5 minutes I am not tempted to go away and leave it so it becomes overfilled.


 
but just enough time to have a cig ;-)


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## Paul Sharples

*At long last!*



Bernard Jones said:


> Well item 16643 (£8.51) does the job very well.  It has an on off tap and a butterfly screw on arrangement that makes it by far the easiest way to fit the hose.
> I then used hose 17802 (£6.16) and item 17917 (£6.99) to connect it to a Calor Patio Gas 13kg cylinder because thats the one I happen to have.
> But a Calor propane cylinder would be cheaper, and would only require item 16852 (£9.02) with the above 16643 (£8.51)
> *I stood the 907 cylinder on scales to be sure I did not overfill it*  and was surprised to find it filled from empty to about 75% full in only 5 minutes.  This is much faster than the times I have seen quoted elsewhere.  Perhaps this is because I used a longer hose (1500mm) and consequently had a greater hight differential between the cylinders.  (also makes it easier to connect them up) Or perhaps its because the camping gaz adaptor I used (item 16643) has a wider bore, so the liquid gas flows more freely, I don't know.  But that can only be a good thing since it only takes 5 minutes I am not tempted to go away and leave it so it becomes overfilled.



Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. My wife and are sick of paying the exorbitant refill prices demanded by the Camping Gaz outlets Now we will keep our 907's topped up with Calor propane from a large donor bottle using the fittings advised. Good work all:bow:!!

PS
A quick question: 

I believe Campingaz normally fill the 907's with butane. Will it be OK to re-fill with Calor propane as suggested (I don't know the difference between the two gasses) and will it work on the Campingaz stove we have?

Thanks in anticipation!


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## lebesset

907's are normally filled with 2.8Kg butane ; don't put in more than 2.5Kg propane and you will be fine


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## oldish hippy

think have to ask vwalan to refill mine next time i am in cornwall i  will ask nicely as dont have room here to store a larger calor bottle think my neighbour wouldnt be to happy


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## runnach

Paul Sharples said:


> Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. My wife and are sick of paying the exorbitant refill prices demanded by the Camping Gaz outlets Now we will keep our 907's topped up with Calor propane from a large donor bottle using the fittings advised. Good work all:bow:!!
> 
> PS
> A quick question:
> 
> I believe Campingaz normally fill the 907's with butane. Will it be OK to re-fill with Calor propane as suggested (I don't know the difference between the two gasses) and will it work on the Campingaz stove we have?
> 
> Thanks in anticipation!



The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.

One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which 
charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.


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## Paul Sharples

channa said:


> The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.
> 
> One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
> charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.



I've not actually tried doing this refill yet so have no idea if there will be a problem. Simple solution would be to refill with butane I guess!


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## Bernard Jones

channa said:


> The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.
> 
> One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
> charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.



My camping Gaz regulator has the max input pressure written on it.  Like the cylinder itself, (which has the max pressure stamped on the base) its max pressure is well above the pressure of propane.


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## runnach

Bernard Jones said:


> My camping Gaz regulator has the max input pressure written on it.  Like the cylinder itself, (which has the max pressure stamped on the base) its max pressure is well above the pressure of propane.



I think you misunderstand what I am saying Bernard.

The cylinder will accomodate propane or butane...the figure you are quoting on the bottle is the maximum pressure the bottle can stand which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.

In the gas bottle itself, propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane.

The regulator has nothing to do with the bottle , it steps down bottle pressure  and feeds the gas system at 28 mbar for butane 37 mbar for propane...which are the standard working pressures.

 My point is that a butane regulator supplying propane is supplying gas at  just  over 20 percebnt less pressure than it should,or could therefore induce underperformance of appliances.

Channa


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## Tony Lee

> which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.



Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar,  so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.


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## runnach

Tony Lee said:


> Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar,  so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.



Where are these figures quoted?....certainly doesn't sound like UK interpretation of pressure vessel regulations which use 15 degrees and standard sea level pressure 
In respect of propane being stored at a higher pressure than butane that is fact and the figure bernard is alluding too stamped on his bottle is the maximum pressure it is tested to which I suspect is 30
 bar

 Of course 15 degrees is more realistic to the UK than 110f which would be a 

  silly figure to use
Channa


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## Tony Lee

> Of course 15 degrees is more realistic to the UK than 110f which would be a silly figure to use



Always a problem writing for an audience living in a country that can't quite decide whether to go fully metric or stay imperial because the hoi polloi are in a continual state of confusion..

15 quoted was actually 15 Centigrade which is 59F. Maybe a state of high summer to some, but in reality not even a realistic real-world situation in drizzly England on a rare sunny day in the boot of a car or on the dashboard where it really can get much higher than 15C

 I gave figure of 115F which IS more realistic when considering proper safety margins for designing a pressure vessel. Think anywhere along the Mediterranean during summer, or Morocco any time of year and you might be wondering if a 2:1 safety margin is really enough. Butane, with  way lower pressures is a smarter gas to use.


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## lebesset

Tony Lee said:


> Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar,  so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.




which is why you should always put less propane in a bottle than butane , greater volume for gas 

standards in europe vary slightly viz , in the same bottle ,

repsol spain    12.5KG butane or 11Kg propane
butagas france 13Kg /11Kg
calor uk   7Kg /6Kg

as you can see , the same principle pertains


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## lebesset

channa said:


> I think you misunderstand what I am saying Bernard.
> 
> The cylinder will accomodate propane or butane...the figure you are quoting on the bottle is the maximum pressure the bottle can stand which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.
> 
> In the gas bottle itself, propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane.
> 
> The regulator has nothing to do with the bottle , it steps down bottle pressure  and feeds the gas system at 28 mbar for butane 37 mbar for propane...which are the standard working pressures.
> 
> My point is that a butane regulator supplying propane is supplying gas at  just  over 20 percebnt less pressure than it should,or could therefore induce underperformance of appliances.
> 
> Channa



motorhomes are now fitted with 30 mbar regulators to be used with both gases ; I have used 28/37/50 ....appliances worked fine with both gases


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## Tony Lee

> which is why you should always put less propane in a bottle than butane , greater volume for gas



It is because the safe level of liquid in a bottle is generally regarded as being 80% full of liquid. This allows a bit of head space for expansion due to higher ambient temperatures met in practical situations. Since propane (liquid) is less dense than Butane, you need less propane (in kg) to fill the bottle to 80% volume than Butane. Theoretically, the different weights stamped on the bottle would be in the same proportion as  their densities, but I guess they round it down to the nearest 0.5kg to make it easier.


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## Therman

Been reading this with interest as a non member and couldn't resist commenting. I think anyone who didn't know what they were doing came upon this thread they would be baffled. Much of the information is correct but a bit too technical and some is quite simply wrong and that is why accidents happen.

Unless you are intending to use the cylinder in temperatures below freezing there is no point in using propane, there is less in the cylinder due to it's lower density, it has a lower calorific value and if anything goes wrong it goes off with a much bigger bang because it's three times the pressure of butane. 

If you use the wrong regulator i.e, for the other type of gas, it won't work efficiently because the gas/air ratios are different. For the same reason that is why you can't use LPG on a natural gas appliance without making adjustments to the pressure, the jets and the aeration. 

The space above the liquid gas is called ullage or vapour space. This is normally about 13% of the water capacity of the cylinder. This is absolutely essential in the cylinder for 2 reasons, to ensure that you get vapour and not liquid coming through the system and also, due to the high coefficient of expansion of the liquid, if the cylinder gets too hot it is very likely to explode from hydraulic pressure and I have seen this happen just in hot sunshine.

The person who said that LPG tanks for engines can be filled to the top because they use liquid is WRONG, all car tanks are designed to shut off the inlet filler valve at about 85%. No ullage in a vehicle tank is particularly dangerous.


To get to the original point of this thread. All you need is 2 threaded butane to nozzle fittings (B1) same thread as Calor 4.5kg, one of the old grey switch-over adapters (if decanting 7/13/15kg butane 21mm cylinder) which Calor gave away in the millions when they changed the 15kg butane onto clip-on regulator and one Camping Gaz to B1 adapter for the Camping Gaz end. A piece of high pressure orange piping of same inside diameter as the nozzles on B1 adapters, fasten it all together with jubilee clips. Don't bodge the connections up or fasten 2 pieces together.  Then turn donor cylinder upside down in position higher than the Gaz bottle. The cylinders may take a little time to equalize pressures and then the liquid gas will flow down the pipe. You can speed this up as has been suggested above by cooling the lower cylinder and/or warming the top one with hot water.

If you are misguidedly putting propane into a butane cylinder the vapour pressure of the propane cylinder will push it in more quickly like an aerosol (that is what they put in aerosols) but butane into propane won't work unless the bottom cylinder has no pressure in it whatsoever. You are also working with much higher pressure if anything goes wrong.

Here is an interesting tip with Gaz 907 cylinder. If you put it in a bucket of water it will float until it's full, as soon as it starts to sink it's got enough gas in it. Slight adjustments may need to be made for weight of your filling equipment of course. If perchance you think the bottle is over-full, it is prudent to squirt some liquid out before using it. Use a bit of common sense when doing that as not only is it highly flammable, you can get frost burns from the liquid which are much worse with propane. All LPG companies in UK fill cylinders according to weight and they all have their empty (tare) weight stamped on them. If the cylinder has residue in it (heavy ends) which effectively increases the tare weight, you will get less gas.    

Remember, nominally empty gas cylinders are more dangerous than full ones as they can get air into them which is what is required to make a combustible mixture. 

Have to mention this as it is possible. There is a very small risk of static in the piping causing a spark so it's a good idea to have an extinguisher nearby and to try to have the cylinders earthed.

I don't know the legal position with Camping Gaz because the customers own the cylinders unlike with most of the bigger cylinders in UK where it is illegal in civil law because the gas company always owns them.

Hope my rambling doesn't baffle people even more, it's a good money saver if you do it properly. 
.


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## runnach

A good thread.....just one thing...hoses should be neoprene not rubber lpg  perished rubber in a very short time.

Channa


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## Bernard Jones

Therman said:


> Here is an interesting tip with Gaz 907 cylinder. If you put it in a bucket of water it will float until it's full, as soon as it starts to sink it's got enough gas in it.



With Butane presumably?
I would be worried about that idea being passed on by word of mouth because it would only be as mater of time before somebody did it with propane. 



Therman said:


> If perchance you think the bottle is over-full, it is prudent to squirt some liquid out before using it..


or simply hold the cylinder up so some drains back into the donor cylinder.

Yesterday I went to the local recycling centre with my garden rubbish, and noticed they have a cage of various gas cylinders. 
I bought four Camping Gaz 907 cylinders at £3 each, one was nearly full.
They were very rusty, but I got a 400ml aerosol can of light blue paint from a car accessory store for £6 which was enough to lightly spray 6 cylinders, now they look like new.  I found the easiest way to spray them is suspended from the garage ceiling, with the stopper in to keep paint out of the seal.


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## Bernard Jones

PS:  I have 2 identical gas rings each screwed into a 907 cylinder.  One is running on Flogas propane I put in myself, the other is running on Camping Gaz butane.  The temperature in the van now is 17 centigrade, the gas ring running on propane produces flames about twice the size and boils a kettle in half the time of butane.


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## oldish hippy

well dont think ican fit a small calor bottle in mine so will have to stick with the 907and just pay the price for them as i dont havethe space


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## n brown

for those going to portugal,in many supermarkets the exchange method for camping gaz is to take the empty to customer services and be given a full refund of deposit,no matter the state of the bottle,then you buy a new one.so if you have spare empties,take them with you


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## Bernard Jones

I notice there is a special flexible rubber washer in a 907 cylinder, which can be removed and replaced with a small screwdriver.  The purpose of this washer is to prevent leaks if the fitting becomes loose or unscrews.  If you hear a hiss of gas when you unscrew the regulator/gas ring this washer must be damaged.  Presumably Camping Gaz replace them when they refill the cylinder, but I don't think the DIY refiller can buy them?
But even if they are damaged they would be no more dangerous than ordinary cylinders which do not have this seal, so will leak if the regulator/gas ring becomes loose.
I submerge the whole cylinder and gas ring/regulator in a bucket of water to check for leaks - There is no better leak test than that.


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## runnach

Bernard Jones said:


> I notice there is a special flexible rubber washer in a 907 cylinder, which can be removed and replaced with a small screwdriver.  The purpose of this washer is to prevent leaks if the fitting becomes loose or unscrews.  If you hear a hiss of gas when you unscrew the regulator/gas ring this washer must be damaged.  Presumably Camping Gaz replace them when they refill the cylinder, but I don't think the DIY refiller can buy them?
> But even if they are damaged they would be no more dangerous than ordinary cylinders which do not have this seal, so will leak if the regulator/gas ring becomes loose.
> I submerge the whole cylinder and gas ring/regulator in a bucket of water to check for leaks - There is no better leak test than that.



As I previously mentioned, rubber washes must not be used with lpg, only neoprene.

If washes aren't available a non setting jointing compound for gas is a better option

Regulators shouldn't be immersed in water, often there is a vent hole one side of the diaphragm  if moisture collects in the regulator performance will be affected.

Far better to spend a little buying gas detection fluid , lasts ages and is cheaper than having to replace a regulator
Channa


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## Bernard Jones

channa said:


> As I previously mentioned, rubber washes must not be used with lpg, only neoprene.
> 
> If washes aren't available a non setting jointing compound for gas is a better option
> 
> Regulators shouldn't be immersed in water, often there is a vent hole one side of the diaphragm  if moisture collects in the regulator performance will be affected.
> 
> Far better to spend a little buying gas detection fluid , lasts ages and is cheaper than having to replace a regulator
> Channa



Thanks for the correction re-neoprene.
I just use a gas ring screwed into the top of the 907 cylinder, there is no regulator.  So can dip the whole lot in water to check everything for leaks.


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## Bernard Jones

*Warning - gas bottle taps*

I have just had a potentially dangerous episode with a propane bottle.  I was filling a 907 cylinder as usual, but it was taking a very long time to fill.  So I turned off the taps at both ends and disconnected the hose to see if anything was blocked. There was an escape of gas as I expected - the contents of the hose.  But the gas kept coming. The tap on the propane cylinder was leaking, I *guess* because sediment in the propane bottle had blocked the tap when I turned the cylinder upside down?  In normal circumstances the cylinder would always be upright so the sediment would always be at the bottom, away from the tap.  I was only able to stop the flow of gas from the propane bottle by screwing in the plastic plug.

Just something to be aware of, and another reason to make sure you really are outdoors away from any sparks or anything that could catch fire before you consider doing anything like this.


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## Pongoglo

channa said:


> The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.
> 
> One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
> charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.



Hi. Ive been contemplating this for ages as the price of a 907 refill in the UK is now just ridiculous. Several questions I have so please be patient if have been covered before. Ok, I dont want to keep changing regulators all the time when I switch between Propane/Butane bottles as supplies run low, so if there's a problem running propane through a butane regulator, how about the other way round -if I only want to use one regulator is it best to standardise on propane, and if so how will butane perform if at all??

Thanks in advance!


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## Jim Ford

A bit late to the party, but the following may be of interest:

Like many campers I'm annoyed at the rip-off prices of Camping Gaz 907 bottle refills, and a google brought me to this site when looking for answers.

In spite of the posts describing successful filling of 907's with propane, I decided that as the bottle is designed for butane, I would refill with this fuel.

Browsing available adaptors and hoses on BES's web site: Plumbing Supplies | BES Gas & Plumbing Fittings, I found the following:

16642	21 mm clip-on adaptor	 £7.98 
16643	Camping Gaz adaptor	 £12.78

Both on page: CARAVAN REGULATORS & HOSE ASSEMBLIES

also:

16712	400mm long, 6.3mm I.D., W20 nut and tail both ends, black hose.	 £3.39

On page: HIGH & LOW PRESSURE HOSE ASSEMBLIES & LPG COOKER KITS

Total cost including £4.95 delivery £34.92

The following steps to fill a 907 bottle were taken in the garden - well away from a possible source of naked flame.

1) I fitted the connectors and hose together making sure the Gaz valve was turned off. I then fitted the clip-on Calor adaptor to a full 15Kg Calor bottle.

2) Next I turned on the Calor bottle and briefly opened the Gaz adaptor valve to purge the connections of air.

3) I then hoisted the Calor bottle upside down, hanging from a step ladder.

4) The 907 bottle was then fitted and the valve opened.

5) The 907 bottle proceeded to fill, as evidenced by a faint trickling sound.

6) After about 20mins, the trickling sound ceased, and I deemed the bottle to be filled.

7) Weighing the 907 bottle showed the net contents to be 2.3Kg, which represents a 84% fill. (I used digital luggage weighing scales from Lidl - labeled 'SilverCrest Z31123'. It was cheap and very convenient in use.)

The process was easy - the most difficult part being the hoisting of the 15Kg Calor bottle between the step ladder! The fittings sealed well with no evidence of leaks.

I'm aware that I spent £34.92 on the fittings and £33 on 15Kg of Calor gas, totalling £67.92 - so at this stage I'm well down regarding savings. But I guess I can get around 5 fills from a 15Kg Calor bottle, by which time I should be well ahead. Also, what price can you put on pulling one over the Gaz sellers?

Jim


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## cancunia

Excellent thread, I've read quite a few on different forums and this one seems to have the best info. 
I've been a user of small Gaz stoves with the throw away canisters for a number of years, but have recently bought an old Tilley Titan after being impressed by one I borrowed from a friend. As it's an older version of the Titan it will run happily on regulated Propane, or unregulated Butane. I have a 3.9kg propane bottle that I refilled to about 50% from bigger cylinders that I use for my house cooker.
The propane works fine, but even with the small 3.9 kg (same size as the 4.5kg Butane) bottle it's a bit bulky for my Berlingo so I've decided to go to Butane on a 907 which I'll refill from a 13kg Calor cylinder.  Even though I have the means to refill the 907 with Propane, I tend to agree with others on here that it'll be better with Butane which has a higher density and lower pressure.

Update:
As it wasn't raining this morning, I decided to try out filling the 907 bottle. I weighed the empty 907  @ 3.7kg, my first attempt got 1kg of gas into the 907 after about 30 mins, but the pipe between the 2 bottles was only slightly angled down toward the 907 bottle. On my second attempt I put the 907 much lower relative to the Calor bottle with the transfer pipe almost vertical and after about 20 mins I had 2kg of gas in the 907 bottle, plenty enough for me. I made the transfer pipe fairly short in order to save gas, but my guess is that a pipe as short as practically possible would be best to allow gas & liquid transfer as well as saving gas.

As noted in earlier posts:
Don't do this indoors, some gas escape inevitable. I worked outside in the garden.
The gas in the transfer pipe is in fact liquid and will burn exposed skin so wear heavy gloves like gardening gloves when disconnecting the pipes. 
My 907 bottle had a slight leak at the valve after filling, I used a little olive oil on the valve & on the tap before screwing the tap back in. No more leaks after taking the tap out. I have the carry handle in place too which I notice has a sealing washer so my guess is they expected some leakage from the ball valve.


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