# Another piece of land!



## REC (Apr 14, 2021)

Shouldn't keep looking but prices seem so low now!








						LPI5-1: Terra com Boas Vistas
					

Land with 420m2, mains water and electricity at the door.  Ideal space for putting a motorhome, good panoramic views over the village thanks to its high location.



					www.pureportugal.co.uk
				




Or just take your pick!









						Properties
					

Looking for property for sale in Portugal for smallholding, self-sufficiency, permaculture, off-grid living, or just to “Live the Good Life”?



					www.pureportugal.co.uk


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## Nabsim (Apr 14, 2021)

You really shouldn’t put temptation in my grasp


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## REC (Apr 14, 2021)

Nabsim said:


> You really shouldn’t put temptation in my grasp


It's good to dream though...no need to win the lottery even!


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## ExRacingRat (Apr 14, 2021)

Soooo....... tempting.....


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## gypo (Apr 14, 2021)

We have been thinking of doing something like this I.E piece of land in Portugal or Spain and using it for the van long time.
Has anyone here done this? Also could you stay longer than the 90 days by doing this?
Thanks
D


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## jacquigem (Apr 14, 2021)

Think you would have to get some sort of residency sorted to get round 90 days


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## ExRacingRat (Apr 14, 2021)

No, I don't think so, you have to apply for residency. Have you seen Project Amber on YouTube? He's just bought a plot.


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## gypo (Apr 14, 2021)

No could you put a link up please?
Thanks


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## ExRacingRat (Apr 14, 2021)

Here you go


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## gypo (Apr 14, 2021)

Thank you


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## n brown (Apr 14, 2021)

son in law's doing residency at the mo . says it's no big deal


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## REC (Apr 15, 2021)

Very easy system to get residence here. It took us a trip to local council for paper to prove address, then trip to the Camra in main town to complete the paperwork. Came away with certificate €25 total approx. Needed ownership documents and passports, took proof of income too but they only glanced at it. This was pre- Brexit but hasn't changed a lot since ...maybe a bit stricter. Had to register online  to change certificate for post Brexit bio-card which will involve a face to face appointment sometime in future. New application goes straight to biometric card.
It is somewhat confusing as they don't have a " temporary" residence category yet....you are either resident or not. If not in Portugal for more than six months have to appoint a fiscal representative to pass on official letters ( can just be a neighbour, they are not taking responsibility for bills, fines etc) and if in Portugal more than six months it gets more complicated for tax.


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## Dezi (Apr 15, 2021)

gypo said:


> We have been thinking of doing something like this I.E piece of land in Portugal or Spain and using it for the van long time.
> *Has anyone here done this?* Also could you stay longer than the 90 days by doing this?
> Thanks
> D


Yes, more or less.

In 1990 we bought a barn and a third of an acre in the Loire Valley. 
Over the next 20 years we converted it into a nice chez Dezi.
Using it as a base we could be in either Spain, Germany, Italy etc with a gentle days driving. 






 Dezi


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## Nabsim (Apr 15, 2021)

Ruth, does pension count as proof of income or do you need more than that?


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## Topmast (Apr 15, 2021)

Not that I understand all the regulations but have lived here for twelve years my understanding is that if you have Portuguese residency you must fill in a tax return ,after a short period of time you have to change your driving license to Portuguese , and when you have P.T license you can not drive British reg. vehicle, also your car /van must be Portuguese registered.I may not be completely correct but do be careful.


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## gypo (Apr 15, 2021)

Nabsim said:


> Ruth, does pension count as proof of income or do you need more than that?


That’s a good question, this would be something we would need to know also?
Thanks


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## jacquigem (Apr 15, 2021)

It does in Spain


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## REC (Apr 16, 2021)

Nabsim said:


> Ruth, does pension count as proof of income or do you need more than that?


Yes, it counts as does any regular income.


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## REC (Apr 16, 2021)

Topmast said:


> Not that I understand all the regulations but have lived here for twelve years my understanding is that if you have Portuguese residency you must fill in a tax return ,after a short period of time you have to change your driving license to Portuguese , and when you have P.T license you can not drive British reg. vehicle, also your car /van must be Portuguese registered.I may not be completely correct but do be careful.


Don't need to do a tax return if away more than 183 days. The rules regarding vehicles is so hard to unpick...my understanding is car has to be matriculated if here more than three months but licence if more than six....this is being clarified, hopefully for me by SEF as there are so many reports of different rules, and the Portuguese don't seem to know. The different newspapers and expat organisations can't agree, and it is complicated by residency prebrexit is treated differently to post as it comes under withdrawal agreement! Like you, we have been here a long time, but as part timers. When we had been here three months you had to get a residency permit to stay under EU rules. Not that anyone did before brexit!  It would be simpler if the Portuguese gov come up with a proper temporary residence permit, but when I asked for this was told it didn't exist. Have searched and found some legal sites offering temporary visas so getting clarification....hopefully!


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## gypo (Apr 16, 2021)

Back to proving your income, does anyone know is there a minimum income that is required to be accepted?
Thanks


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 16, 2021)

I have a vague recollection in the back of my head of hearing a figure of £2,000 per month somewhere?

Might have just been for Spain? No idea where I heard it either! 
Soz....


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 16, 2021)

Here you go, found something useful at last - at least I hope it is?

"Proof that you have income that allows you to live in Portugal. To be eligible, you must have income or pensions amounting for 12 months: €7.200 for the first adult; €3.600 for second or more adults; €2.160 per children. You must provide 6-months of bank statements."

Found this info on the following website:-

https://www.portuguese-nationality.com/residency/the-d7-visa-portugal


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## trevskoda (Apr 16, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Here you go, found something useful at last - at least I hope it is?
> 
> "Proof that you have income that allows you to live in Portugal. To be eligible, you must have income or pensions amounting for 12 months: €7.200 for the first adult; €3.600 for second or more adults; €2.160 per children. You must provide 6-months of bank statements."
> 
> ...


Could I show them a picture of under my mattress?.


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## gypo (Apr 16, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Here you go, found something useful at last - at least I hope it is?
> 
> "Proof that you have income that allows you to live in Portugal. To be eligible, you must have income or pensions amounting for 12 months: €7.200 for the first adult; €3.600 for second or more adults; €2.160 per children. You must provide 6-months of bank statements."
> 
> ...


That sounds do-able just got to try get over there and view the plots for sale as I think it would be too much of a gamble to buy something without visiting it


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## jacquigem (Apr 16, 2021)

In Spain seems to change with time, who you talk to and where you apply. Before Btr it day was 8 K per person  in bankfor 3 months but we got in for less given a good pension. Now think it's 24k for first person and 6k for second we think. Getting harder all the time.


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## REC (Apr 16, 2021)

gypo said:


> Back to proving your income, does anyone know is there a minimum income that is required to be accepted?
> Thanks


Think I saw something like £1070 month ....but if there is a savings lump sum, this cann be taken into account.  As Marie showed, if applying for a D7 visa before entering the country the figure is £7000 year, then reduced amounts for accompanying people.


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## REC (Apr 16, 2021)

gypo said:


> That sounds do-able just got to try get over there and view the plots for sale as I think it would be too much of a gamble to buy something without visiting it


D7 visa you have to give an address where you will be on arriving in Portugal, then when arrive open bank account, get Tax number etc.


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 17, 2021)

gypo said:


> That sounds do-able just got to try get over there and view the plots for sale as I think it would be too much of a gamble to buy something without visiting it



@gypo - suggest if serious about doing this you go over there (when safe and legal to travel) and follow up suitable properties on the ground. I suspect there will be lots more properties available for sale when you get there that won't necessarily be advertised online?

Two years ago we were intending to have a holiday in Portugal and do something similar. Volunteering at various country properties who needed free labour in exchange for somewhere to stay with meals chucked in. A lot of students and younger folk do this, but at the time I was still (I thought!) fit and healthy, but not so do-able for me now.  

It still seems like a good way to go about it for anyone seriously thinking of relocating to Portugal with perhaps a smaller budget, but not sure where to start?

You'd get a taste of what it would be like living there as opposed to just holidaying. Living somewhere for long stretches of time is a different ball game to touring or holidaying - you might not actually like it?.

Anybody dreaming about doing this I say go for it!

There's obviously not many adverts for volunteers just now because of the pandemic - there were loads to choose from when I was looking 2 years ago! - but hopefully things might open up again going forward?

Small list of potentially useful websites here:-

https://helpstay.com/stays/Volunteer-Organic-Farm-Portugal#overview

https://www.workaway.info/en/hostlist/europe/pt

https://www.worldpackers.com/search/europe/portugal

https://freevolunteering.net/volunteer-portugal/


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## gypo (Apr 17, 2021)

^^ many thanks for the info above I’ll have a good read of it later 
D


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## iampatman (Apr 17, 2021)

I don’t know the process for applying for residential status in Portugal. It maybe easy and it may be complicated. The only advice or suggestion I can offer is to find an English speaking solicitor or legal assistant to help you through the process. There are a myriad of questions you need to answer before you buy a property/land. Do you need to be a resident to buy the land? To obtain residency do you need to show a regular income or a lump sum paid into a Portuguese bank? Will you want to access the Portuguese health system? Will you have to make a Portuguese will before you can buy the land/property? (It’s a requirement in Spain now). You’ll have to change your driving license. You’ll probably have to pay income tax in Portugal if you are a resident which involves completing a UK double taxation relief form. A plot of land for 4 or 5 thousand euros is obviously tempting but probably very complicated. Get some proper legal advice which probably won‘t be very expensive but could save you a lot of heartache in the future.
All the best and good luck,

Pat


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 17, 2021)

Good advice, Pat.

A few of the better/trustworthy property websites for Portugal offer all of those services I think?

REC and Pauljenny will know a fair bit about the process, Pat.
They've both been happily residing (part time) in their Portuguese 'hovels' for some years now, I think?

In fact both parties are in Portugal right now (wearing their smug filters, I hope!  )


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## REC (Apr 18, 2021)

The estate agent should help  with getting a NIF number ...have to have this tax number to buy a property. Ours helped us open bank account, get NIF and translated documents also.. 14yrs ago. Look at this site for useful information. D7 visa link

Also many of the expats forms have a " step by step guide"
Recent legislation means that 10% tax is payable on pensions but any other income is tax-free for ten years under NHR rules...  (have to register this at the outset when getting residency). If you only have uk pension then S1 form makes everything easy and the NHR is not needed. Really do need to investigate the options thoroughly and get professional advice before jumping!


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## gypo (Apr 22, 2021)

Does anyone know the requirements for Spain with regards to doing the same thing I.E buying a plot of land to use for a Motorhome, also the requirements to get residency as per Portugal?
Thanks
D


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## iampatman (Apr 22, 2021)

Before you can buy land or property in Spain you will need an NIE number (think of it as similar to a UK NI number). The application process varies from region to region In Spain. You cannot buy land or property in Spain without this.
Assuming you have obtained your NIE number and purchased some land or a ruin and assuming you are permitted to park your motorhome on it you will still be governed by the 90/180 day rule as a non resident. So if you wanted to stay in Spain longer than that you would have to apply to become a resident. This is rather more complicated and would require you to demonstrate proof of income or deposit a sum of around 9,000 euros (I’m not sure of the exact amount) in a Spanish bank. Either way you will require a Spanish bank account. You will have to register on the “padron” at the local town hall showing them where you live - after all if you are applying for residency it would be assumed you live somewhere in Spain which is a reasonable assumption. You will need to provide utility bills.
So you’ve got your NIE number, your new TIE card (residency document) and you can stay in Spain as long as you like. But now you are a resident you will have to pay Spanish income tax. You’ll have to change the plates on your van to Spanish plates after a period which I think is 6 months and that’s an expensive process.
If you don’t speak fluent Spanish you will have to use the services of a Gestoria (solicitors). If you are in a major town or city there are plenty of English speaking solicitors who will assist you but good luck finding one in the back of beyond which is probably where you’ll be if you’re looking for cheap land or a ruin.
I really don’t want to be negative regarding your plans and ideas but its not going to be easy to achieve your objectives. Loads of information on the UK Gov website and also on the Spanish Gov websites to help you do more research.
Good luck,

Pat


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## gypo (Apr 23, 2021)

Thank you Pat for the the detailed information.


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## iampatman (Apr 23, 2021)

You’re very welcome.

This may be useful to you - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-buy-property-in-spain
And this - https://www.gov.uk/world/living-in-spain

Pat


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 23, 2021)

FWIW I have always been drawn towards Portugal and never considered Spain as an option for residency - or even as a holiday destination.

Don't really know why Portugal, more a gut feel, backed up by a little research over the last few years?


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## Pauljenny (Apr 23, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> FWIW I have always been drawn towards Portugal and never considered Spain as an option for residency - or even as a holiday destination.
> 
> Don't really know why Portugal, more a gut feel, backed up by a little research over the last few years?


It's history, Marie..
Spain has always considered The British to be hostile..
Wrong religion,
Centuries of duplicity, to maintain the balance of power, always Thwarting  French and Spanish expansion and influence in Europe, Africa, The Carribbean and North America.
Always playing one off against the other.
Elizabeth I and Philip of Spain...
Boasting about how we stuffed the Armada..
Even The Falklands/ Las Malvinas..

Portugal, however, sees us as their oldest friend. They're taught this at school.
Always there to stop Spanish and French incursion.
We lent them the money to pay for Wellington, during the Peninsula war, and financed the rebuilding of the huge damage done by the 1755 earthquake..
They're still paying interest, our locals say.
When we were at war with France and Spain, we always needed somewhere reliable to provide us with booze.
Hence the British names of the main Port houses.
It's good here, innit, Ruth.?


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## REC (Apr 23, 2021)

Pauljenny said:


> It's good here, innit, Ruth.?


It is...my only annoyance is that those who speak English want to practise on us and won't help us get more to grips with Portuguese...not an easy language! But have never met a Portuguese who is unpleasant just due to nationality...and we, personally, don't seem to have put them off...yet! 
A lot of the older generation of  Portuguese here, have worked abroad mainly in France, in their youth. They seem to relate to the issues of being in a different  country as a result.


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## n brown (Apr 23, 2021)

*that was useful . when we first went down there, you couldn't buy ready planed timber so you had to buy rough sawn wood ,then take it to a chippy who'd sort it into planed boards and mouldings . luckily we'd lived in France so i could communicate with these guys ,who enjoyed speaking in French anyway !  putting up a shelf  could involve driving 60k and waiting a week ,but that was the pace of life   *


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## Pauljenny (Apr 23, 2021)

n brown said:


> *that was useful . when we first went down there, you couldn't buy ready planed timber so you had to buy rough sawn wood ,then take it to a chippy who'd sort it into planed boards and mouldings . luckily we'd lived in France so i could communicate with these guys ,who enjoyed speaking in French anyway !  putting up a shelf  could involve driving 60k and waiting a week ,but that was the pace of life   *


It's 19 months since we last set out to wander slowly back down to the Algarve.
It gave us a chance to dust down our French and Spanish, and Jenny's German.
I was only thinking, (In English ), how little Portuguese, we're speaking, since lockdown.. No socialising, just hurried shopping.

If we're looking for something unfamiliar, we take a photo, and show it.
The supermarket, butcher and green grocery, are just routine transactions and contactless, in every way. Masks don't help.
The longest conversation we have is with the chatterbox lady in the village newsagents. If there's not a queue outside the door, she'll talk about the weather and maybe some local gossip/ news.
We're not meeting any visiting foreign motorhomes, and have only just started visiting cafes and restaurants, this week... Outdoors, of course.
We chat to family and friends online.. which is a Godsend


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## REC (Apr 23, 2021)

Pauljenny said:


> It's 19 months since we last set out to wander slowly back down to the Algarve.
> It gave us a chance to dust down our French and Spanish, and Jenny's German.
> I was only thinking, (In English ), how little Portuguese, we're speaking, since lockdown.. No socialising, just hurried shopping.
> 
> ...


Do you find your shopping list gets muddled, half Portuguese and half English? I know when we are at the end of our stay as I can't remember the English word. Our neighbours all speak Portuguese at us regularly. We understand more than we speak, but they just repeat things different ways (even in french!) till we get it.


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## n brown (Apr 23, 2021)

James Michener told in his book The Drifters that he asked his old parisienne concierge if she knew any language tutors that could teach him French ,  she scoffed and told him to come at 8am tomorrow and she'd teach him ,in a week !
next day he found himself following her round as she did her chores ,rabbitting non-stop  about her work . he never understood a word
next day she talked non-stop about transport in France . he found himself picking out odd words with similar sounds -train ,autocar, chauffeur  etc .
by the 4th day he was understanding some complete sentences ,and by the seventh he could swap jokes and stories .
she just said that's how babies learn, something similar worked for me, but i never had the same luck in Prtugal


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## Pauljenny (Apr 23, 2021)

n brown said:


> James Michener told in his book The Drifters that he asked his old parisienne concierge if she knew any language tutors that could teach him French ,  she scoffed and told him to come at 8am tomorrow and she'd teach him ,in a week !
> next day he found himself following her round as she did her chores ,rabbitting non-stop  about her work . he never understood a word
> next day she talked non-stop about transport in France . he found himself picking out odd words with similar sounds -train ,autocar, chauffeur  etc .
> by the 4th day he was understanding some complete sentences ,and by the seventh he could swap jokes and stories


We were both lucky, having some French.
My Dad lived in France between the ages of 4 and 11 and used to talk basic French at home.

Jenny worked in Germany, for 4 years and picked up the lingo, by being totally immersed in it, working with young kids.

Our first holidays here were in tourist resorts, so language was no problem We thought, Gracias and a few other Spanish words was adventure enough. We thought we'd never get to understand the language that the locals used.

  During the foul winter of 2001, we were more or less confined to the campsite. We took a 12 lesson course, led by one of the reception ladies..
Simple , practical stuff.  We could say , " Tomorrow... I go to Faro.. ", do simple shopping and understand menus.
Just baby talk, really.
But it got us started.
Then we moved to this village.. 17 years ago.
We were taken in by elderly neighbours, and it was intensive.
Carmenha, became my Honourary Portugese Mother-In- Law.. Sogra..
She's just had her 100th birthday.. and lights up our lives , whenever we meet.
You've just got to get out there and use it


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## trevskoda (Apr 23, 2021)

I thumped my hand with a hammer the other day and was able to talk fluent Chinese, mind you it were all swear words.


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## mariesnowgoose (Apr 28, 2021)

Homestays, Volunteering & Working Holidays in Portugal


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## jagmanx (Apr 28, 2021)

I was recommended a book..
An English couple bought land and a ramshacle ols house in Portugal.
The lived in theierr motorhome for many months as the "Hovel as Paul Jenny would say" needed everything including a new roof.
It was a delightful read which I read whilst we spent a week plus over xmas at St B de Messines.
We had a lovely time   
No plns to do the same as 1 "foreign house" is enuff
But maybe a summer visit ! in the Motorhome !


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## jagmanx (Apr 28, 2021)

Ps
Wood
Teak freely available here but it needs to be cut and planed at home.
Where we areb they use had sows *2 people) to turn trees into planks as there is less waste
The edges then need to be trimmed (circular Saw)  and all 4 sides planed..(some more than others)  to get a consistent thickness
My O level woodwork teacher would be proud of me
The results are good.
Mahogonay also available for structural work but a pain as it is so hard to work
We ususlly stain the wood with a "Creosote type" liqiid  then varnish to finish

There are some high quality furnishing items available but for Thailand they are at  extortioate prices


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