# Masham, North Yorkshire - Recreation Ground Parking



## Masham PC

Dear All

Masham Parish Council manages the area in Masham known as the Recreation Ground, this being where the cricket ground and tennis courts are located.  Adjacent to the Recreation Ground is an open grassed area known locally as the Shooting Holme.  This is in fact the Village Green and as such has protected status, which includes the prohibiting of overnight camping.

Very occasionally we have noted that motorhome or caravans are parked overnight despite the presence of a large notice prohibiting this use.  Indeed it is apparent that there is a perception that this type of camping is allowed.  I have to advise you that this is not the case.  Whilst it is true that the area is a beautiful riverside location, it is not considered suitable for overnight parking and this fact is clearly stated on the signage in the entrance area.  As a result I have been requested to advise you that in order to prevent further occurrences the council has now erected a height restriction barrier that will deny access to these vehicles.  I do hope that you will understand the reasoning behind this decision.

It should be noted that there are a number of camp sites in the area, all of whom are open to visitors, and of course the town of Masham welcomes visitors to its historic market square, wonderful countryside and local breweries.


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## runnach

Masham PC said:


> Dear All
> 
> Masham Parish Council manages the area in Masham known as the Recreation Ground, this being where the cricket ground and tennis courts are located.  Adjacent to the Recreation Ground is an open grassed area known locally as the Shooting Holme.  This is in fact the Village Green and as such has protected status, which includes the prohibiting of overnight camping.
> 
> Very occasionally we have noted that motorhome or caravans are parked overnight despite the presence of a large notice prohibiting this use.  Indeed it is apparent that there is a perception that this type of camping is allowed.  I have to advise you that this is not the case.  Whilst it is true that the area is a beautiful riverside location, it is not considered suitable for overnight parking and this fact is clearly stated on the signage in the entrance area.  As a result I have been requested to advise you that in order to prevent further occurrences the council has now erected a height restriction barrier that will deny access to these vehicles.  I do hope that you will understand the reasoning behind this decision.
> 
> It should be noted that there are a number of camp sites in the area, all of whom are open to visitors, and of course the town of Masham welcomes visitors to its historic market square, wonderful countryside and local breweries.



Firstly thank you for entering dialogue, and I would like to offer my own observations.

Please note that my remarks are personal perceptions, and in know way reflect or propose to be an official stance of this site.

There is plenty of evidence councils through out the country have erected signage with no legal backing whatsoever, there are strict regulations re the validity of signage this apparent attempt to enforce what often is not legally enforceable has induced a culture where some people will ignore the signs. This perhaps explains why people have parked ignoring signs which may have no more legal clout than "Not in my back yard |" thank you .

Motorhomes as you refer to them are in the main self sustaining, There is absolutely no reason visitors should leave with only tyre tracks left as evidence. Indeed a lot of members here using " wild locations" often have a tidy up before leaving , thus the spot in a better position than at the point of arrival.( Surely this benefits the local PC and their residents ? ) 

You may also want to take note that several locations that have afforded this community space to meet, have openly offered to host again thus the responsibility and behaviour of this group. 

The offer or suggestion of commercial campsites is not the answer, It is nothing to do with free loading etc but more people don't really need to pay for facilities they don't require. 

I am going to respectfully ask you to think about something. Motorhomers as a general rule have good disposable income to spend in your local area, supporting local business and economy...The "silver " pound particularly has good exchange rate, So why cant Masham take the lead ?....Height barriers and all the rest of it aside lets look at ways to make the situation work. If you look at the French model of aires it is apparent straight away the value to the local economy. I assure you tendering local campsites is not the answer.

Finally I think it is important you relay to your fellow councillors, the Motorhome community want to work with you rather than against each other which is non productive. 

I am happy as a resident of Yorkshire to attend a council meeting so we can discuss opportunity further, Does your council have the open agenda to consider such a thing or are you sheeple a blinkered approach ... Give me a try , No one has nothing to lose only gain !!


Channa


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## chrismilo

Admin can we have a Dislike Radio button ?:lol-049:


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## runnach

chrismilo said:


> Admin can we have a Dislike Radio button ?:lol-049:



Adversarial  a tad , don't you think ! ...Very little achieved . We need to work together !


Channa


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## ScamperVan

Just curious so I google mapped where the OP may be referring to.

This, I guess, Google Maps

I can see why they wouldn't want it to become a "campsite"

And I'm sorry, I am not in accord with those who say it's fine to camp/overnight because these type of signs aren't TROs - just don't do it!!!

Google Maps


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## Robmac

I must admit, I personally wouldn't park on a recreation ground. So I can see the annoyance.

But perhaps Masham PC might be able to suggest other places in the area where we can camp, other than campsites?

We spend a lot of money on our vans to make them self sustainable, solar panels, water/waste water tanks, cassette toilets etc. etc. The last thing we want to do is stay on a regimented, extortionately priced campsite with facilities we don't need. We may as well give up our vans and use B&B's as do that.

Many councils seem to think that if we are not allowed to camp, we will go to campsites, this is not the case, we will simply move on somewhere else to spend our money. This is why more and more motorhomes are going to Scotland or the continent these days.


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## Caz

I am somewhat perlexed by Masham Parish Council's assertion that "there are a number of camp sites in the area, all of whom are open to visitors". 

The majority of the campsites in the area seem to be sites which are Certified by either the Caravan & Motorhome Club or the Camping & Caravanning Club, and are therefore only open to members of those Clubs and not to everyone. Also there do not seem to be any sites that are open all winter.

Installing height barriers to any car park is to my mind a very shortsighted decision for any Council to make if they wish to encourage tourism in their town. It denies access to all those who's main transport is taller than an average saloon car; in addition to motorhomes and campervans, this includes holidaymakers (who may be camping on nearby campsites or staying in B & Bs or hotels) but who have roof boxes fitted to their cars. It can also be a problem for the disabled who sometimes have larger vehicles, and large families who may use MPVs or minibuses.

Indeed, if the problem occurs only "Very occasionally", then I suggest it is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.


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## Robmac

It may well be worth noting at this point that Flo Grainger (Chairman Masham Council) is a director of Ellingmoor ltd. who own 3 caravan parks around Masham.


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## rockape

Never mind Masham, just Fuxkham.


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## izwozral

Robmac said:


> It may well be worth noting at this point that Flo Grainger (Chairman Masham Council) is a director of Ellingmoor ltd. who own 3 caravan parks around Masham.



Conflict of interest indeed. Well spotted Rob, it puts a completely new perspective on the opening post.


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## 2cv

From a look at the Google maps picture linked above it would seem unreasonable to overnight or even park on the recreation ground, particularly if there are signs indicating that someone objects to such. I cannot see how a height barrier would prevent the pictured vans getting there though.
On a wider note I think that caravan site owners need to realise that preventing motorhomes from parking overnight in certain places does not increase business for their site, it merely means the vans will park elsewhere taking with them any benefits to other local businesses that their spending would result in. Many motorhome users have invested in their vans not to be coralled into sites with lines of other vans but for the freedom afforded by a self contained unit. It is disappointing that so many local councils prefer to act against motorhome users rather than encourage them.


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## izwozral

I know I keep bleating on about NZ but the UK need to look at the Freedom Camp model they adopted in response to the explosion of visitors, particularly following the release of LOTR. Specific areas are set aside for vehicles to camp overnight, sometimes 2 or 3 nights, quite often toilets are provided. The small towns get the benefit of the campers spending money in the shops, museums, cafe's and attractions, they are also invited to leave a donation in some places.
We came across some Freedom Camps managed by the local community, we even came across camps with fruit and vegetable gardens, with the produce available for a small fee - sometimes for free.
On the whole it worked extremely well, with very little evidence of abuse. 

It really was a win win situation where everyone benefited.


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## Ed on Toast

Good point Rob M,

Parish Councils, like Masham, must make public the record of minutes of meetings. I am sure these will clearly show the Chair declared a prejudicial interest and took no part in the making of this decision. To do so would be considered a very serious breach of trust and would normally lead to a call to resign.

I echo previous posts and would welcome some dialogue taking place. The more we understand each other, the less prejudice there is in the world.

There are many positives to be had from a good relationship between our communities. As many others here also do, I often litter pick an area before leaving. Not my own litter but that of other visitors. It all helps to create a nice atmosphere but there are many other benefits, including extra income for local businesses (Wild Campers are 12 month visitors)

A village i visit on a regular basis, had raised funds to buy a defibrillator and site it on a box outside, for all the community to use, if needed. Alas they are not confident in its use, as training was not included. A member of our Wild Camping forum, is visiting soon to deliver some free training in its use.

I wonder if Masham has a publicly sited defibrillator? and if you do, is there a need for some more training?  

Thank you to the person from Masham PC, who posted on here, to keep us updated. Maybe it could be the start of a good and mutually beneficial relationship between our communities?

Hopefully Tom (Parish Clerk) will visit us and read this thread, if not someone might invite him:

mashamparishclerk@gmail.com


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## runnach

Ed on Toast said:


> Good point Rob M,
> 
> Parish Councils, like Masham, must make public the record of minutes of meetings. I am sure these will clearly show the Chair declared a prejudicial interest and took no part in the making of this decision. To do so would be considered a very serious breach of trust and would normally lead to a call to resign.
> 
> I echo previous posts and would welcome some dialogue taking place. The more we understand each other, the less prejudice there is in the world.
> 
> There are many positives to be had from a good relationship between our communities. As many others here also do, I often litter pick an area before leaving. Not my own litter but that of other visitors. It all helps to create a nice atmosphere but there are many other benefits, including extra income for local businesses (Wild Campers are 12 month visitors)
> 
> A village i visit on a regular basis, had raised funds to buy a defibrillator and site it on a box outside, for all the community to use, if needed. Alas they are not confident in its use, as training was not included. A member of our Wild Camping forum, is visiting soon to deliver some free training in its use.
> 
> I wonder if Masham has a publicly sited defibrillator? and if you do, is there a need for some more training?
> 
> Thank you to the person from Masham PC, who posted on here, to keep us updated. Maybe it could be the start of a good and mutually beneficial relationship between our communities?
> 
> Hopefully Tom (Parish Clerk) will visit us and read this thread, if not someone might invite him:
> 
> mashamparishclerk@gmail.com



Ed you pretty much and more eloquently reinforce my points and train of thinking. 

Masham is a lovely little town, and I imagine if you were ever posted at Catterick you are well versed in its charms. 

It would be really refreshing for a change if we could work with a council, with an open mind it is reasonably easy to demonstrate that our community can add value to the area and not drain nor detract.

I truly believe that an open mind, healthy dialogue as you suggest offer an opportunity to mutually beneficial relations.

I don't have a magic wand, but would love the opportunity to show any council the "French " approach adds unlimited value to the community. They have identified very quickly that camp sites are not the answer, alternative provision however attracts the visitors and incremental revenue to the villages.

I honestly believe if we can win one council around, we shall create a precedent and beneifts that appease ,and enrich everyone 

Channa


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## 2cv

Ed on Toast said:


> Good point Rob M,
> 
> *Parish Councils, like Masham, must make public the record of minutes of meetings. I am sure these will clearly show the Chair declared a prejudicial interest and took no part in the making of this decision. To do so would be considered a very serious breach of trust and would normally lead to a call to resign.*
> 
> I echo previous posts and would welcome some dialogue taking place. The more we understand each other, the less prejudice there is in the world.
> 
> There are many positives to be had from a good relationship between our communities. As many others here also do, I often litter pick an area before leaving. Not my own litter but that of other visitors. It all helps to create a nice atmosphere but there are many other benefits, including extra income for local businesses (Wild Campers are 12 month visitors)
> 
> A village i visit on a regular basis, had raised funds to buy a defibrillator and site it on a box outside, for all the community to use, if needed. Alas they are not confident in its use, as training was not included. A member of our Wild Camping forum, is visiting soon to deliver some free training in its use.
> 
> I wonder if Masham has a publicly sited defibrillator? and if you do, is there a need for some more training?
> 
> Thank you to the person from Masham PC, who posted on here, to keep us updated. Maybe it could be the start of a good and mutually beneficial relationship between our communities?
> 
> Hopefully Tom (Parish Clerk) will visit us and read this thread, if not someone might invite him:
> 
> mashamparishclerk@gmail.com



This is the most recent record that I could find. Item 6 may or may not be a different issue, but certainly no declaration of interest by the chair. http://hub.datanorthyorkshire.org/d...-b818-8ce8dbb18625/download/minutes-2017.docx


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## Ed on Toast

I think earlier minutes would show the initial discussion of the subject but i am sure it will be there.


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## 2cv

The height barrier was agreed at the July 2016 meeting, as an attempt to prevent travellers entering en route to Appleby. Coun. Grainger at an earlier meeting was mentioned as having done some research at the DEFRA site regarding protections for designated village greens. As yet I have seen no declaration of a conflict of interest in the matter.


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## 2cv

The caravan park interest is listed in general declarations https://localdemocracy.harrogate.go...llor.asp?id=782&name=Florence+Yvonne+Grainger


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## Ed on Toast

Maybe this will be the start of a new kind of Twinning  :baby: :baby:

It is clear it was done with the aim of reducing the distress and disruption caused by visitors to the horse fair. It would seem  then that the good folk of Wild Camping are just collateral damage, to a larger problem. 

Given the opportunity, I am sure both communities will find mutually beneficial ground.


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## 2cv

Masham PC said:


> Dear All
> 
> Masham Parish Council manages the area in Masham known as the Recreation Ground, this being where the cricket ground and tennis courts are located.  Adjacent to the Recreation Ground is an open grassed area known locally as the Shooting Holme.  This is in fact the Village Green and as such has protected status, which includes the prohibiting of overnight camping.
> 
> Very occasionally we have noted that motorhome or caravans are parked overnight despite the presence of a large notice prohibiting this use.  Indeed it is apparent that there is a perception that this type of camping is allowed.  I have to advise you that this is not the case.  Whilst it is true that the area is a beautiful riverside location, it is not considered suitable for overnight parking and this fact is clearly stated on the signage in the entrance area.  As a result I have been requested to advise you that in order to prevent further occurrences the council has now erected a height restriction barrier that will deny access to these vehicles.  I do hope that you will understand the reasoning behind this decision.
> 
> It should be noted that there are a number of camp sites in the area, all of whom are open to visitors, and of course the town of Masham welcomes visitors to its historic market square, wonderful countryside and local breweries.



I would point out that the barrier has been erected in response to the annual influx of travellers around the Appleby fair and not in response to "very occasional" motorhome or caravan overnight parking. I think it would have been better for the new member Masham PC to make this clear. Their personal interests in local campsites should also have been made clear, and probably declared at the PC meetings discussing the travellers and their control, particularly if the controls are claimed to be in response to occasional overnight parkers who apparently should use said campsites.


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## runnach

Ed on Toast said:


> Maybe this will be the start of a new kind of Twinning  :baby: :baby:
> 
> It is clear it was done with the aim of reducing the distress and disruption caused by visitors to the horse fair. It would seem  then that the good folk of Wild Camping are just collateral damage, to a larger problem.
> 
> Given the opportunity, I am sure both communities will find mutually beneficial ground.



I see Clllr Graingers involvement with caravan sites an enhanced opportunity. On face value, as others have mentioned the stock answer is to use campsites. If we can demonstrate that psychologically we are not wired that way, Yet as a community we can provide incremental income to the area, have the opportunity to demonstrate our collective behaviour is honourable etc, It is possible we can drive a shift in attitude. Once we garner the empathy of someone within the caravan industry,  opportunities abound.

It would be a great start if Cllr Grainger and the rest of Masham PC, gave us the platform to state our case, There is no reason this couldn't be a win/ win situation for all involved...That is always good business.

Channa


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## Deleted member 967

izwozral said:


> I know I keep bleating on about NZ but the UK need to look at the Freedom Camp model they adopted in response to the explosion of visitors, particularly following the release of LOTR. Specific areas are set aside for vehicles to camp overnight, sometimes 2 or 3 nights, quite often toilets are provided. The small towns get the benefit of the campers spending money in the shops, museums, cafe's and attractions, they are also invited to leave a donation in some places.
> We came across some Freedom Camps managed by the local community, we even came across camps with fruit and vegetable gardens, with the produce available for a small fee - sometimes for free.
> On the whole it worked extremely well, with very little evidence of abuse.
> 
> It really was a win win situation where everyone benefited.



I feel that we as a community could promote a scheme similar to the NZ Self Containment model and certification.   We already have contact with DEFRA through our exempt status with Natural England.  NZMCA : Self Containment

For the benefit of @MashamPC.   Motorhome use differs from that of caravans.   They are motor vehicles taxed and insured in their own right unlike trailers.  People buy them for the freedom they offer in being able to set off at short notice.  Most are totally self contained so do not need the services provided on caravan sites for each overnight stop.  The motorhome users like the ability to change their minds regarding the destination even after they have set off.   Caravan site have restrictions such as pre booking and minimum number of nights stay that do not fit in with this ethos.
Can I point you to the facilities that have been provided at Lytham St Annes, Glenshee Ski Centre and Canterbury as examples of low cost provision that can promote tourism spending.   There are 6 full facility motorhome only stops now in Northern Ireland on the continental model. South Lakes are also waking up to the possibility of income from Motorhome Tourism.   Moneymaking motorhome park being considered by South Lakeland District Council
Please don't be blinkered and consider alternatives, to turning income away.


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## Ed on Toast

I think it is about developing an open, mutually respectful positive dialogue, between our two communities. 

It  would seems the members of the Parish Council have acted in the wider community interest, to protect this beautiful place from an annual influx of those who, maybe do not share the high code of conduct we do in Wild Camping.

I have worked with my local Parish Council and I am sure Masham Parish Council works equally as hard in the interests of the local community, residents and business alike.

We have a strong record of building positive relationships with towns and villages, across the UK, I don't doubt for a second, given the opportunity, we will be able to have the same, mutually beneficial relationship with the community of Masham.


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## Robmac

My apologies, it may only be one caravan site they own.

I believe it is listed under 2 names, The Ellingmoor, and the Old Station. I'm not sure where I got the third one from, but I can't find a reference to it today, so I may have misunderstood.


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## izwozral

Robmac said:


> My apologies, it may only be one caravan site they own.
> 
> I believe it is listed under 2 names, The Ellingmoor, and the Old Station. I'm not sure where I got the third one from, but I can't find a reference to it today, so I may have misunderstood.



Still a conflict of interest in my opinion Rob, whether she has one site or 6000 sites. Having said that, I doubt I would camp on the recreation ground anyway, looks a sure fire winner to p1ss the locals off.


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## Robmac

izwozral said:


> Still a conflict of interest in my opinion Rob, whether she has one site or 6000 sites. Having said that, I doubt I would camp on the recreation ground anyway, looks a sure fire winner to p1ss the locals off.



I agree Ral, but I thought I'd better put my statement right.

I wouldn't park on a recreation ground either, it does our cause no good whatsoever, but it would be good if they would post again to let us know where they stand on wildcamping in general.


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## izwozral

I agree Rob, the silence is deafening.


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## Budgie

Just to clarify the wild camping poi spot that was on here previous was for the tarmac car park in between the green and cricket pitch, the travellers parked en masse on the green ( see google maps street view) wild campers on the car park causing no bother to anyone there is a big difference, I understand the council,s thinking as there is no way of separating the two. Such a shame as Masham is a lovely place.


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## Ed on Toast

Isn't this were dialogue is good?

There are areas around the cricket pitch but also other areas within Masham. If not the village green then is there another area?

 Is it not better to work with the Parish Council and together identify locations that are suitable to all concerned?


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## 2cv

Ed on Toast said:


> Isn't this were dialogue is good?
> 
> There are areas around the cricket pitch but also other areas within Masham. If not the village green then is there another area?
> 
> Is it not better to work with the Parish Council and together identify locations that are suitable to all concerned?



I agree in general, but in this case where the PC chair is involved in a campsite and has been very economical about revealing that fact, and has suggested that the barrier is a result of very occasional transgressors rather than the annual travellers as is in fact the case I think that progress is very unlikely. Good luck though.


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## Ed on Toast

We might like to open some form of dialogue first, it might be as you say but it might be better to open an dialogue and establish the current positions and then seek to identify and move towards a new, more mutually beneficial position. 

IF an error has been made, amends can be made but we should not seek to use it as a stick. That, i personally feel would just create a state of intransigence.

Best, I think to begin by listening to the concerns of the Masham community, expressed by the Parish Council.

If we move the 'Barrier' to one side, for now, we might find we have many things of mutual benefit already and can spend productive time developing them.


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## Robmac

They haven't been back online since they posted.

Does anybody know if the OP has been posted elsewhere?


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## Caz

Robmac said:


> My apologies, it may only be one caravan site they own.
> 
> I believe it is listed under 2 names, The Ellingmoor, and the Old Station. I'm not sure where I got the third one from, but I can't find a reference to it today, so I may have misunderstood.



It is one campsite. It demonstrates all the reasons it isn't appropriate for me and many other motorhome/campervan users, viz:

"Please note all Weekend booking May to September minimum 2 nights and Bank Holidays 3 nights stay as minimum." No option for just one night stays, I tend to move on daily when touring unless meeting up with friends.

The cost of a pitch includes 2 adults and there is no reduction for solo occupancy. Many are solo travellers. There is an extra charge of £1 per dog. If I have paid for 2 adults when there is only one of me, why should I pay extra for the dog?

EHU charge is included whether it is needed or not. Why should I pay for something I cannot use? (I don't carry EHU lead and equipment as it takes up too much room in a small campervan).

Finally, it is only open March to November. So no use whatsoever for 25% of the year!


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## barryd

Robmac said:


> They haven't been back online since they posted.
> 
> Does anybody know if the OP has been posted elsewhere?



If you look at the original Post Rob it shows 1 post for this new member from Masham, so nope.  Thats it.

What a shame especially as the members have been so positive and welcoming and offering suggestions and dialogue.

Perhaps we should give them a bit longer but really if they are only going to post once and ignore four pages of replies it really would have been better to have said nothing. (For them and Masham)

I Fear the worst though having seen this before.  I spend roughly £4-6k on my travels motorhoming every year.  99% of that goes into Mainland Europe.  Thats just me, one van and two people.  There are something like 18000 dedicated motorhome parking places in Mainland western Europe.  A good chunk of them in countries like France, Italy and Germany.  I doubt ill even bother trying to tour much in this country anymore.


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## Robmac

barryd said:


> If you look at the original Post Rob it shows 1 post for this new member from Masham, so nope.  Thats it.



Sorry Barry, I meant does anybody know if they have posted their message on other forums?

I agree with the rest of what you say though.


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## barryd

Robmac said:


> Sorry Barry, I meant does anybody know if they have posted their message on other forums?
> 
> I agree with the rest of what you say though.



Ah I see.  No, ive not seen it pop up anywhere else Rob.  I assumed it was in response to them seeing the other thread about the POI going in Masham.


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## Ed on Toast

There, previously posted, is an email for the Clerk of the Parish Council, if that is of use?


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## Robmac

Ed on Toast said:


> There, previously posted, is an email for the Clerk of the Parish Council, if that is of use?



I have sent them an Email Ed, inviting them to comment on the points raised in this thread.


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## Ed on Toast

Nice one Rob, it would be nice to see them come back on to the forum for a chat.


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## Robmac

Unfortunately, there has been neither a reply to my Email, nor a revisit to this thread from Masham PC.

Either the council are taking it under consideration, or the Op was an edict, not up for discussion. I suppose time will tell.


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## Robmac

Robmac said:


> Unfortunately, there has been neither a reply to my Email, nor a revisit to this thread from Masham PC.
> 
> Either the council are taking it under consideration, or the Op was an edict, not up for discussion. I suppose time will tell.



Oops! May have jumped the gun a bit there. I only sent the Email at 10 yesterday morning, I thought it was the day before!


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## n brown

sort'em out my son !


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## barryd

Robmac said:


> Oops! May have jumped the gun a bit there. I only sent the Email at 10 yesterday morning, I thought it was the day before!



That no excuse Rob.   I answer emails like people answer the phone.  Its a bit of a joke with my clients.  Either my phone or laptop pings as soon as they come in even in the middle of the night and I just have to answer them immediately even if its to say Ill come back to you.  The real reason is ill probably forget otherwise.


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## Robmac

barryd said:


> That no excuse Rob.   I answer emails like people answer the phone.  Its a bit of a joke with my clients.  Either my phone or laptop pings as soon as they come in even in the middle of the night and I just have to answer them immediately even if its to say Ill come back to you.  The real reason is ill probably forget otherwise.



In the past Barry, whenever I have Emailed councils, they usually send an acknowledgement Email to say that it has been passed onto the relevant department and somebody will get back to you, or words to that effect. Not this time though.

I'll give them another week, and then ........erm, give them another week I suppose! etc. etc.


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## Deleted member 967

In pursuing Parking Provision for Motorhomes and promoting overnight stopping places I have contacted every county and district council in the UK, Motorway Services providers and Major service station providers.   Some failed to acknowledge and took more than two attempts, even using Freedom of Information legislation to get a reply.  

Parish councils do not have the infrastructure of the larger councils, so rely on a clerk or the councillor to act on their behalf.   Do not expect a speedy outcome but persistence can actually get you somewhere.

Graham Hadfield (Motorhome Parking Website) with tell you the same.

A first reply may be dismissive, but put your points over and attempt to continue the dialogue.   You may even get a face to face meeting, however you then need people to follow through, not just be keyboard warriors.

John Thompson (former Motorhome Tourism Organisation)


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## Robmac

John Thompson said:


> In pursuing Parking Provision for Motorhomes and promoting overnight stopping places I have contacted every county and district council in the UK, Motorway Services providers and Major service station providers.   Some failed to acknowledge and took more than two attempts, even using Freedom of Information legislation to get a reply.
> 
> Parish councils do not have the infrastructure of the larger councils, so rely on a clerk or the councillor to act on their behalf.   Do not expect a speedy outcome but persistence can actually get you somewhere.
> 
> Graham Hadfield (Motorhome Parking Website) with tell you the same.
> 
> A first reply may be dismissive, but put your points over and attempt to continue the dialogue.   You may even get a face to face meeting, however you then need people to follow through, not just be keyboard warriors.
> 
> John Thompson (former Motorhome Tourism Organisation)



Thanks for that.

I have to say, I am not particularly bothered about the location in question in this thread. It is not a place I would use.

However, I am concerned about the whole issue of wildcamping anywhere these days, so I am very interested in Masham PC's attitude to any motorhomes parking in the area.

I will send another Email next week if there is no response and see where we go from there.


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## Masham PC

*Masham eation Ground*

Thank you for your many and varied responses to the initial post regarding restricted access to the area.

The very first comment I must make is to refute completely the appalling and very unworthy suggestion that the barrier has been installed in order that the Chairman of the council can benefit in any way from a possible increase in visitors to the one small site she owns.  

The question of access to the area has been discussed in the community for a number of years and there has long been a sizeable number of the community who wanted to see some control action to prevent unauthorised access.  The Shooting Holme is actually designated as a Village Green and therefore should benefit from the protection of a byelaw.  Unfortunately that and the signage on display has not prevented a number of visitors staying overnight and regrettably by no means all of the visitors are as thoughtful or self contained as your members appear to be.  The town has for a number of years had to put up with disruption to the area when groups of visitors arrive and leave an untidy mess and often human excrement. Whilst I'm not suggesting that your members are guilty of this type of behaviour, it is representative of what the town has had to suffer.  As a result, and after a number of other actions were tried and failed, the council has determined that it had to take action to control access by way of a height barrier.  It is recognised that this will not please everyone, and indeed there are local community members who are also put out by this action.

Masham does of course welcome visitors, but in this particular respect has decided that there was a need to take action in response to the concerns of the community.  I do hope that on balance you will acknowledge and accept the decision of the council.


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## Robmac

I have now received a reply from Tom Johnson;

Dear Rob

Many thanks for your notification.

The initial post was made at the request of the council and I have today posted a reply to those comments made so far.

I must say that I was appalled at some of the comments suggesting the that the decision had been made to benefit the chairman and her camp site business.  People should not make assumptions without knowing at least some of the facts.

Anyway, I’ve explained in more detail why the council made the decision and hope that your members will accept if not welcome that news.


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## runnach

Where is the reply Rob ? I cant see it 

Channa


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## Robmac

channa said:


> Where is the reply Rob ? I cant see it
> 
> Channa



I'm not sure Andy.

I've replied to Tom to tell him that we cannot see a reply, so hopefully, he will try again.


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## runnach

Upon reflection Rob it may be sat in Phils in tray a lot of forums screen free members first posts to prevent the scammers and porn pics etc etc 

Channa


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## izwozral

Oops


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## Robmac

edit: Double Oops!


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## izwozral

Can't wait for the reply from 'Appalled of Masham', Rob.


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## 2cv

It would be nice to see why the interest was not declared.


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## Robmac

2cv said:


> It would be nice to see why the interest was not declared.



I agree Bill.

Perhaps the post will shed more light on it. Nice to get a dialogue in place though, and I look forward to the response to some of the other questions as well.


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## Ed on Toast

Hello Tom,

Hopefully you will still be monitoring this.

'Appalled' is a rather strong retort. Some members, myself included, queried if a Declaration of Prejudicial Interest had been made.

While I for one, applaud the excellent work carried out by by Parish Councils, there are due processes that should be followed, to the benefit of all concerned. 

The rights of the driver of a motor-home should be taken into consideration. 

Open, honest and genuine communication is key in situations such as this, intransigence is not.

Maybe to begin a discussion around:

Are there alternative local locations for our members to use?

We all know the benefits of responsible motor-homing to the local economy but what else can we do?  Give our members the opportunity and let them --
 -demonstrate how much we work towards and value good community relations.


Defibrillator?  Need a refresher training course, Free of charge, of course.

Some of our members, specialise in early morning littler picks, lol

Maybe the Parish Council has some similar events coming up  that would benefit from a little extra volunteer help?

I think we have a great opportunity to open that door to communication and not allow it to be slammed shut, what do you think ?


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## Robmac

Masham PC's reply has come in now, it is at post #47.


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## Robmac

Masham PC said:


> Thank you for your many and varied responses to the initial post regarding restricted access to the area.
> 
> The very first comment I must make is to refute completely the appalling and very unworthy suggestion that the barrier has been installed in order that the Chairman of the council can benefit in any way from a possible increase in visitors to the one small site she owns.



The reason I raised that point is because in the past, councillors who own sites have actively campaigned on TV and in the newspapers to ban motorhomes, so I thought it needed to be noted as a consideration in this case, so there is no possibility of a conflict of interest, no matter how big or small the business is.

However, I personally respect the decision in the case of the Shooting Holme, but was hoping that you would come up with an alternative other than campsites?


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## izwozral

Perhaps the gentleman would explain how the chairman could not benefit from the restriction placed at the recreation ground? If indeed the area was being abused as stated, how does the council know it was by motor homers?


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## barryd

izwozral said:


> Perhaps the gentleman would explain how the chairman could not benefit from the restriction placed at the recreation ground? *If indeed the area was being abused as stated, how does the council know it was by motor homers*?



They dont know but thats what happens in this country.  A few people misbehave so up go the height barriers and everyone is banned.  Its easier to just ban stuff here than it is to actually take a step back and look at how you could actually provide the right facilities for genuine motorhomers with real money to spend.  Until we are classed as an opportunity here like we are in the likes of France, Germany or Italy rather than just a free loading nuisance, nothing will change. Europe this year for me again, four months and some hopefully.


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## Robmac

barryd said:


> They dont know but thats what happens in this country.  A few people misbehave so up go the height barriers and everyone is banned.  Its easier to just ban stuff here than it is to actually take a step back and look at how you could actually provide the right facilities for genuine motorhomers with real money to spend.  Until we are classed as an opportunity here like we are in the likes of France, Germany or Italy rather than just a free loading nuisance, nothing will change. Europe this year for me again, four months and some hopefully.



I think this is where the councils fail badly Barry, they do not see it as an opportunity.

We have 23,000 members on this forum, the majority of which would rather wildcamp than go on sites. Many are now turning their attention to mainland Europe, and a hell of a lot of revenue going with them.


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## 2cv

I feel that if no lies have been told here then certainly there has been economy with the truth. I have read back through the council minutes and the issue has regularly been discussed, but almost if not entirely this has been in relation to the passage of travellers en route to Appleby. It would certainly be interesting to see how many complaints have been received not related to this and if general overnight parking has ever been discussed.
The chairman of the council, with a caravan site interest only disclosed in general and never as far as I could see at any individual meeting, was instrumental in investigation of village green status and protections. I think that most overnight stayers did not actually use he village green, this appears to be where the travellers sometimes stay.
Indeed it is sad that the extensive discussion of passing travellers en route to Appleby has resulted in the height barrier and effectively banning all motorhomes throughout the year. This council have missed an opportunity and I feel have not entirely been above board in doing so.


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## Ed on Toast

I think now would be the opportunity to move this discussion forward. 

The issue of disclosure has now been discussed fully, at this point and now seems to have become a waved stick.

Maybe those in email communication with the Parish Council clerk (Tom) might like to use that email to formally request a member, or members of the council to join and contribute to this discussion, in the spirit of open, transparent and accessible  local governance of our communities.

While we can not know the outcome of such an open and transparent discussion, it would prove a good exercise for both our communities. 

The Parish Council are active in the running of the Community Office, who's say:

*Our aim is to keep our small rural community, which has so much to offer, alive, active and vibrant for all those who live and visit here.*

Well, we in _*'Wildcamping'* _with our membership of 20,000+ have publicly expressed our interest to continue to visit  and financially contribute to this rural community.

Parish Councils are, in the areas they operate, the first tier of local Government. While the councillors take only small recompense, if any, for the valuable work they do, they are still part of the Government. As such, all tiers of Local Government are required to respond to formal requests on a specified time. To deal openly, transparently and equally with  all members of the public.

Wild  Campers and other visiting camper van and motor-homes have been using these areas for many years and therefore a precedent seems to have been set regarding it usage. 

While the Parish Council has acted in the best interests of the community of Masham to protect this area during the annual migration of travellers to the horse fair, it should, in the interests openly, transparently and equally be being seen to enter into dialogue with other, legal and respectful visitors, who financially contribute to their community.

It may well be that an alternative local site is identified, to the current green but this will only be seen to happen if communication takes place.

Enjoying the outdoors be it in a tent or campervan is a recognised pastime and together with sports, pastimes are a key requirement of Village Green status and as such of any funding drawn down to facilitate its status.

Having said that a short walk from an alternative but similar location, would still afford the same benefits but clearly demonstrate real cohesion between our communities and might prove an idea solution for all, including local businesses.

Hopefully, some of the Parish Councillors will accept and invitation and be able to join this discussion and demonstrate, communities, working together to support our rural communities.

I hope so.


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## runnach

I agree with most of what you say Ed, However BarryD hits the nail on the head re Uk councils in the main seem blinkered to opportunity.

Any attempt at meaningful dialogue seems to fall on deaf ears, attitude seems to be entrenched. British trait and psyche ? 

What I can never fathom out, is a lot of councils are made up of people with business interests. Therefore I don't think it is wrong to assume they possess a bit of acumen, But I cant understand why they don't use that acumen to benefit the local community, It borders on failure to serve the electorate to the best of ones ability. neglect of duty etc. 

Incidentally this is not specifically aimed at MashamPC but it does seem a trend with councils in general. When the TDF visited this part of Yorkshire, I am sure behind closed doors the local council employed tourist prevention officers !!

I am never wholly convinced myself when people talk about financial benefits, But I do agree with you , open and frank dialogue between parties could identify areas of mutual benefit .( your defrbbilator comment a good example) Adding value is not always financial which I know you are well aware of.

It is a complex problem but the first stage to providing working solutions is dialogue. We are happy to talk so come on councils somewhere engage with us !!

Channa


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## Robmac

Ed on Toast said:


> ....Maybe those in email communication with the Parish Council clerk (Tom) might like to use that email to formally request a member, or members of the council to join and contribute to this discussion, in the spirit of open, transparent and accessible  local governance of our communities.



Hi Ed,

I have informed Tom that his post is now visible on the forum and has attracted comments. I have invited input from he and fellow councillors.


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## barryd

Why not just close the barrier before and after the appleby event for a couple of weeks either side?   Charge a fiver for a dozen markedly Motorhome only spaces.  But a tap in and if possible a black and grey waste point.  You don't even have to do that though.  Just set up an agreement with the campsite for users to dump their waste there for say another fiver.  The campsite owner is getting a fiver a time the. As well and make no mistake, people won't go and stay on the Site because they cant park in the town, they will just go somewhere else.

Maybe offer an alternative when the barrier is down if there is anything suitable.

In France this would be done by either an honesty box, a person calling each evening or morning, users going to the ti or Marie etc to pay the fee or in more modern overnight parking facilities by paying at a barrier to get in or leave (expensive)

I have no idea if this would work at Masham but it works in thousands of towns and villages in France.  Point is there are alternatives to just putting in a barrier and banning everyone that all can benefit from


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## Robmac

I'm guessing they have no more to say on the matter.

Oh well, we tried.


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## izwozral

It was worth a try Rob, thank you. 

Just goes to show, the the indefensible is not defensible I guess and those who hold sway over us treat us with contempt.

Sod 'em.


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## Pauljenny

Dear Councillor,
    We have a 6 metre long ,3 metre high motorhome.
When we are on holiday, we can easily spend £25 per day on a pub lunch and a couple of coffees. We like to visit the local attractions, spending quite willingly for good amenities.

Being retired, and having difficulty walking, we just need somewhere nearby, level and preferably with hard standing to prevent damage during wet weather. That's enough for the odd night. A simple tap and drain would be an added bonus.

Campsites are more suitable for touring caravans, their children and pets. They usually take their car to different locations during their stay, so their spending power is spread out in other attractions, outside your parish council.
Bus services are usually sparse ,so campsites are of little use to us.
Thank you for warning us that we and our kind are unwelcome. We will pass that message on for you.
Send my apologies to Paul Theakston,  I will not be able to buy any more of his excellent beer or sweatshirts.

The money you have saved me will be spent somewhere more convivial.
Paul and Jenny Sanders


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## Pauljenny

This is for fellow Motorhome owners.

 It is with great sorrow that I will no longer be buying or accepting beers from The Theakston and Black Sheep breweries.

It will be a huge sacrifice!


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## GWAYGWAY

I understand the  the proper travelling community might well at this  very moment be arranging a national meeting on this very site, and there  will be at  least 150 units  and horse boxes as well. turning up  to have the annual  knees up. possibly more if there is enough wild grazing for the ponies.in the locality,  they will be arriving  in a fortnight  for at least a month maybe more.:scared:


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## Pauljenny

GWAYGWAY said:


> I understand the  the proper travelling community might well at this  very moment be arranging a national meeting on this very site, and there  will be at  least 150 units  and horse boxes as well. turning up  to have the annual  knees up. possibly more if there is enough wild grazing for the ponies.in the locality,  they will be arriving  in a fortnight  for at least a month maybe more.:scared:



So will the gates be left open when the Appleby Horse fair is over and done with?
Will motorhomes be welcome to stay within a short walk of the town?
Instead of an outright ban, can the PC just advise us not to visit at certain specific times?


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## runnach

As a rule I am sympathetic towards travellers, and as a couple of folk here are well aware I have contacts in their community. Height barrier in Masham not a chance ....one stihl saw later !!!

Some of them and quite entrenched is they feel discriminated wherever they go...in that context actions speak louder than words , that barrier will be cut they will be on site and the barrier weighed in.

It will happen watch !!...the elders don't necessarily agree either with vandalism but understand the frustration of the younger ones.

( the elders will berate them up hill down dale I have seen it...but they close ranks when the gavvers or council involved )

We think as motorhomers are discriminated against and aghast try it living on the road, so whilst I don't endorse some of their behaviour it is understandable.

The young ones particularly daft as brushes and believe the world is against them, so they rebel it really is not that difficult to understand. 



Channa


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## Haaamster

What's missing is evidence of what we spend in each location, over a year between us it must be quite substantial. If we had a thread where we could add up all our spending over a year it could be used negotiate an Aire with the councils. If we collectively spend £20k a year in Yorkshire and £3k a year in Lancashire then it should be pointed out Lancashire when talking to them.
A simple spreadsheet containing  money spent, date and place would work.


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## Budgie

*Did not stop them*

Just found out after all the effort put in by the council to stop the Appleby horse fair travelers camping on the recreation ground the height barrier & rocks  failed not to stop them !!!!


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## Pauljenny

Budgie said:


> Just found out after all the effort put in by the council to stop the Appleby horse fair travelers camping on the recreation ground the height barrier & rocks  failed not to stop them !!!!



That could be good news for us Black Sheep drinkers.
Will Motorhomers be welcome to spend a couple of nights in the town until next year's  fair approaches?
Would the council let us know.
I would be quite happy if they were prepared to warn us when they want us to stay away for a couple of weeks per year.


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## runnach

Budgie said:


> Just found out after all the effort put in by the council to stop the Appleby horse fair travelers camping on the recreation ground the height barrier & rocks  failed not to stop them !!!!


 It seems I was correct post 75 !

The daft thing is , if provision were made for motorhome communities and plenty of evidence starting to surface from places like Hawick that it can be commercially successful, there is a good chance the travelling community would stop away. 

In common with a lot of communities , they don't really go out their way to integrate with non travelling folk. Masham is enroute for some not the venue. Motorhome presence could well dissuade them from stopping. a bit nimby and problem shifts elsewhere I accept that but could cure Mashams headache

Channa


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## Fazerloz

channa said:


> It seems I was correct post 75 !
> 
> The daft thing is , if provision were made for motorhome communities and plenty of evidence starting to surface from places like Hawick that it can be commercially successful, there is a good chance the travelling community would stop away.
> 
> In common with a lot of communities , they don't really go out their way to integrate with non travelling folk. Masham is enroute for some not the venue. Motorhome presence could well dissuade them from stopping. a bit nimby and problem shifts elsewhere I accept that but could cure Mashams headache
> 
> Channa



Cor mate you were bang on, just like septic peg, sorry I mean mystic meg. :bow:


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## runnach

Fazerloz said:


> Cor mate you were bang on, just like septic peg, sorry I mean mystic meg. :bow:


 It was hardly the most challenging prediction in the world was it ! :anyone:

Channa


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## Fazerloz

channa said:


> It was hardly the most challenging prediction in the world was it ! :anyone:
> 
> Channa



One the good people of Masham failed to see. Have you got some crystal balls tucked away someplace.


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## runnach

Fazerloz said:


> One the good people of Masham failed to see. Have you got some crystal balls tucked away someplace.


 Sadly I lost my crystal wotsits when I opened a clairvoyants in Chickenly and had to close down due to unforeseen circumstances 

Channa


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## alcam

barryd said:


> Why not just close the barrier before and after the appleby event for a couple of weeks either side?   Charge a fiver for a dozen markedly Motorhome only spaces.  But a tap in and if possible a black and grey waste point.  You don't even have to do that though.  Just set up an agreement with the campsite for users to dump their waste there for say another fiver.  The campsite owner is getting a fiver a time the. As well and make no mistake, people won't go and stay on the Site because they cant park in the town, they will just go somewhere else.
> 
> Maybe offer an alternative when the barrier is down if there is anything suitable.
> 
> In France this would be done by either an honesty box, a person calling each evening or morning, users going to the ti or Marie etc to pay the fee or in more modern overnight parking facilities by paying at a barrier to get in or leave (expensive)
> 
> I have no idea if this would work at Masham but it works in thousands of towns and villages in France.  Point is there are alternatives to just putting in a barrier and banning everyone that all can benefit from


 
All good commonsense Barry , it'll never catch on . There are doubts about how much many motorhomers actually spend . If a charge is made which covers the councils expenses then the local businesses will get the benefit of those who do use the restaurants etc


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## jagmanx

*Indeed*



alcam said:


> All good commonsense Barry , it'll never catch on . There are doubts about how much many motorhomers actually spend . If a charge is made which covers the councils expenses then the local businesses will get the benefit of those who do use the restaurants etc



Height barriers cost to install.
They prevent even casual (day only) use by motorhomes and other overheight vehicles.

They are a curse and others have discussed their "sledgehammer" qualities.

I think that some areas are fully justified in preventing mass occupation by motorhomers or travellers.

The problem is how can a 2 or 3 night limit be enforced ?
Also a limit of say 5 vehicles (maybe more) is imo good

As in France methods of collecting revenue and managing the area need to be implemented and the local area would benefit x2
We are content to pay £5 to £10 depending on the quality of the "parking" and facilities available.
We like to stay 2 nights but if the locality is good 3 nights would be handy sometimes.


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## oppy

View attachment 56146
Perhaps a lesson could be learned from Queen Nicola's subjects. We were here last Friday
Oops, sorry about the crick in your neck


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## Louey

I know this is now an oldish thread, but I was looking at revisiting Masham in a few weeks. 

On my previous visits I had used the local campsite (Station Inn). This time I wanted to try out stopping in the actual town but it looks like that idea has been quashed by Masham's PC blinkered approach. I decided to have a read through the minutes of their meetings that were posted early on in this this thread.

_"The Clerk advised that he had reported the height barrier installation on the Wild Camping website to advise their members.  The report had received several responses, some of which were thought to be unworthy and inaccurate.  After discussion it was agreed by the meeting that the reason for the council decision to install a height barrier was well documented over many years and clear to all who lived in and around Masham.  The question of any bias or undeclared interest by any member of the council was therefore completely out of the question.  It was agreed that having made the announcement there was no point in further debate with the website members."_

This was in their minutes of the 5th June 2017 - they clearly do not want to get into dialogue, which is very disappointing. However, they seem to bend over backwards for a Bentley classic car gathering!!

If you 've ever used the Station campsite you might aree with the following:  
It is very much geared up for caravans: try filling up with water or emptying an underslung waste tank (I blocked the main entrance to the camping field for quite some time.
Horrible to stay in during harvest time due to black flies from neighbouring fields, yet no warning from establishment.

I have read they now have a coach car park on Fearby Road, so they are in favour of some form of tourism (when it suits them), perhaps they will eventually move on their very static thinking. 

All I want is a few beers in each brewery and a meal in the town :-(


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## Pauljenny

I'm still carrying out my crusade.
I refuse to drink Theakstons or Black Sheep beers. And will make a point of not visiting that delightful town.
It's quite a sacrifice. 
If they don't want people like us, who are prepared to behave ourselves and pay for our pleasures,
Then so be it.
I hope others will join me.


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## trevskoda

Councils in england should come over and see how we do things right here.
Broughane shops bought a section of the old beetiling mile behind a church and installed service units which tokens can be bought in most shops or garage.
No travelers have as i know ever tried stopping here or has there ever been any trouble dirt or damage.
Folks stopping over night do shop local and fuel up before taking the tour of the glens or round the coast.
We also have one at donaghadee common co down and not forgetting portrush.
Below are pictures of broughane.


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## shaunr68

I must admit that on my last visit to North Yorkshire I spent some of my hard earned cash in the local chippy but was not impressed.  They don't fry their potatoes, they mash 'em!  

I'll get me coat...


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## Robmac

Pauljenny said:


> This is for fellow Motorhome owners.
> 
> It is with great sorrow that I will no longer be buying or accepting beers from The Theakston and Black Sheep breweries.
> 
> It will be a huge sacrifice!



Myself and a couple of mates have stopped drinking the Black Sheep in one of my locals Paul.

This caused the landlord some concern, so he got rid and got me some Wherry in instead. :tongue:


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## runnach

The real sad part of this story is Masham council wont enter dialogue to explore a mutually beneficial situation,

Channa


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## Pauljenny

Robmac said:


> Myself and a couple of mates have stopped drinking the Black Sheep in one of my locals Paul.
> 
> This caused the landlord some concern, so he got rid and got me some Wherry in instead. :tongue:



Wise move, Rob.

Imagine the drinking capacity of WC membership, and them posher people on Moho.com. If we all boycott Masham and it's products... We could bring the council to it's knees.

Get Twattering Folks!

Set up Basefook campaigns !

Involve other motorhome websites!
The Revolution starts here!


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## maingate

Stuff 'em. :mad2:

Try Batemans Brewery in Wainfleet, Lincs. instead. They have their own campsite and Visitor Centre, do cracking Sunday Lunches and have a convenient Bus Service to Skegness.

Batemans Brewery Visitors Centre


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## Pauljenny

maingate said:


> Stuff 'em. :mad2:
> 
> Try Batemans Brewery in Wainfleet, Lincs. instead. They have their own campsite and Visitor Centre, do cracking Sunday Lunches and have a convenient Bus Service to Skegness.
> 
> Batemans Brewery Visitors Centre



OH YES !!

I'd not seen Batemans around, west of the Pennines and thought they'd been absorbed by Marston.
Skegness can be so bracing...
I think we'll have to go and get braced.


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## Pauljenny

Hey !
They do party tours... We could get a discount?

Can some enterprising  member organise a mini gathering.. Midweek, when they are quiet?

We'd be keen ,over the summer.
I'll get onto Jeffmossy.


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## Robmac

I've done a few brewery tours.

The best one was at the Ind Coop  brewery at Burton upon Trent. At the end of the tour, they took us into a bar and gave each of us an empty pint glass. The tour guide said "Right, the bar is free for an hour, go drink your fill".

I was one greedy boy that day!


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## mistericeman

Robmac said:


> I've done a few brewery tours.
> 
> The best one was at the Ind Coop  brewery at Burton upon Trent. At the end of the tour, they took us into a bar and gave each of us an empty pint glass. The tour guide said "Right, the bar is free for an hour, go drink your fill".
> 
> I was one greedy boy that day!



We almost got locked in on the tour at the Lagavulin distillery on Islay..... 
Given a glass at the end of the tour and told to help ourselves... Even to the very exclusive 1966 vintage.... 
Good job we were within walking distance of where we camped lol.


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## barge1914

*Masham*

In passing I should note that many European Campsites recognising the increasing ownership of motorhomes have created an area near the site entrance with low cost overnight stay facilities for motorhomes. I once alluded to this on a C&MC forum...you can guess how enthusiastic the response was...”Oh there’s no demand for THAT sort of thing”...lead balloons anybody?

I too spend 6 months abroad every year. In winter we go to Scotland. We would like to visit more of England some time, but can’t cope with the unwelcoming NIMBYlike hostility to motorhomes... both regarding places to stay and places to park. Hence probably half of our annual income is spent in other countries where we are welcome.


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## yorkslass

Robmac said:


> I've done a few brewery tours.
> 
> The best one was at the Ind Coop  brewery at Burton upon Trent. At the end of the tour, they took us into a bar and gave each of us an empty pint glass. The tour guide said "Right, the bar is free for an hour, go drink your fill".
> 
> I was one greedy boy that day!



Heaven came down to earth that day Rob.

It does sound like a good venue for a meet.


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