# Urgent question from a French camp site about reverse polarity



## sololite (Aug 16, 2017)

Hi there

We just rocked up at a French campsite and connected to thier electric

The reverse polarity light is on on my Sargent EC328 charger 

It is not possible to get an adapter or reverse the plug

Everything is working ok 

I know I shouldn't use the uk 3 pin socket that's in the campervan

My question is am I ok to charge the leisure batter or will it or the charger get damaged?

Thanks everyone


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## witzend (Aug 16, 2017)

It shouldn't be a problem I have never checked in 8 yrs and have no Indicator just means the electric is going the other way around the system so disconnect before attemping any work on system. But easy to correct by swopping N for L leads in your EHU plug

Can you plug it into another near by outlet to try first


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## sololite (Aug 16, 2017)

Thanks mate. The leisure battery voltage is slowly climbing and nothing has blown up yet. We are only here for a couple of days so I won't faff about too much. Thanks once again, Chris


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## The laird (Aug 16, 2017)

In umpteen years of French camping etc never had any troubles as previous posts stated if your equipment is ok can't see you getting any faults


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## wildman (Aug 16, 2017)

it is alternating current runs both ways so will damage nothing only a wiring fault could cause a problem at things would remain live, fuse both pos and NEG and at the EHU input problem solved. you can safely ignore it.


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

Ac current only runs both ways in the live wire,the other is dead as like a eth wire,here is a little test you can do,stand in a puddle and insert the neg wire in your mouth,next try this with the live wire,pos the last post you will ever make,remember the first electric trams at portrush where the man behind it sat on the live rail with rubber boots on,he lived to tell the tail.  
Switches will NOT cut the live current though most stuff these days will work ok like chargers and tv,but to be safe i have one of these fitted,others can say what they like,be safe.


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> Ac current only runs both ways in the live wire,the other is dead as like a eth wire,here is a little test you can do,stand in a puddle and insert the neg wire in your mouth,next try this with the live wire,pos the last post you will ever make,remember the first electric trams at portrush where the man behind it sat on the live rail with rubber boots on,he lived to tell the tail.
> Switches will NOT cut the live current though most stuff these days will work ok like chargers and tv,but to be safe i have one of these fitted,others can say what they like,be safe.


Reverse Polarity is not a danger in itself, but if present and a fault occurs on a device being used, then it is not ideal to say the least, so correcting it like Trevskoda does is just plain common sense. The fact 'Europeans' get away with it is that they have different standards. They also don't have fuses in the plugs, so presumably it would be safe to whack a nail into a UK 13A Plug instead of a fuse as that would make a device like a Europeans?

I carry a polarity reversing cable myself which I would use if my "pointless" tester identified a reversed polarity situation.  "pointless" testers also will inform you of other faults as well, so I would recommend always having one to check the totally unknown power connection you are plugging your home into.  Leave one plugged into a AC socket and it will be there to see each time you hook up.  They are under a fiver, for god sake!

This is one of those topics that people who are adament there is no problem will keep to their stance 'till the day they die (hopefully not prematurely through electrocution).  
And those who understand the consequences of it (and have maybe been a victim of reversed polarity wiring, like I have, and still have the, albeit minor, burn scars 30 years on) will treat the situation with the respect it deserves.
And those who are not sure ... really want to risk your life by continuing to have a KNOWN fault with the power input into your motorhome?


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Reverse Polarity is not a danger in itself, but if present and a fault occurs on a device being used, then it is not ideal to say the least, so correcting it like Trevskoda does is just plain common sense. The fact 'Europeans' get away with it is that they have different standards. They also don't have fuses in the plugs, so presumably it would be safe to whack a nail into a UK 13A Plug instead of a fuse as that would make a device like a Europeans?
> 
> I carry a polarity reversing cable myself which I would use if my "pointless" tester identified a reversed polarity situation.  "pointless" testers also will inform you of other faults as well, so I would recommend always having one to check the totally unknown power connection you are plugging your home into.  Leave one plugged into a AC socket and it will be there to see each time you hook up.  They are under a fiver, for god sake!
> 
> ...



Thank you for posting this as i thought i was going mad,done the same as you 30 odd years back with a house which was reverse wired,seen the great escape whisky galore goldfinger vaughn rians express all in an instant flash,never again i always test.:scared:


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

"unless it was converted in the UK where they tend not to use such things...."
Ummmm... is this not likely the case for a large percentage of forum members here?  (including the OP.  Sargent don't use DP breakers)

and to Hairydog ... I will repeat.
_This is one of those topics that people who are adament there is no problem will keep to their stance 'till the day they die (hopefully not prematurely through electrocution).
And those who understand the consequences of it (and have maybe been a victim of reversed polarity wiring, like I have, and still have the, albeit minor, burn scars 30 years on) will treat the situation with the respect it deserves._

No point in debating a point where someone is adamant in their misbelief, so carry on with your dodgy habits 

PS.  Correct procedures and safe practice does not have a sell-by date.


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## harrow (Aug 16, 2017)

Electricity is dangerous stuff.

*Not all campsite electrics are going to be safe.*

Treat it with respect, or it will bite you.

:hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## shortcircuit (Aug 16, 2017)

wildebus said:


> And those who understand the consequences of it (and have maybe been a victim of reversed polarity wiring, like I have, and still have the, albeit minor, burn scars 30 years on) will treat the situation with the respect it deserves.
> And those who are not sure ... really want to risk your life by continuing to have a KNOWN fault with the power input into your motorhome?



Was it due to incorrect work practice that you had your unfortunate event?


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

I don't usually bother having a debate with you David, as you always know everything about every subject under the sun, but I will in this case as it is an important subject, not just about how french food is better then anything in the UK, or some such, so it is important you don't spread more falsehoods on a subject that actually matters.

#1: swapping the breakers.  it is relatively simple for someone who knows what they are doing, but is not literally a case of taking one out and putting another in as the neutral wires need to be repositioned as well, and they are quite likely to be too short  (a Consumer Unit is usually quite tight for space and the wires are cut to the length required by the installer) so there is some cable extending required almost certainly. 
It is also not something that people holidaying abroad should be thinking they should need to do.
#2#:When you say half-width MCBs, what size do you mean? the typical SP MCB in a UK CU is, from memory, about 13.5mm wide, and is half the width of the RCD. The typical DP MCB is indeed twice the width of a SP MCB and is in many ways two SP MCBs "lashed together" (not quite, but enough not to argue that point).  It is of course possible to get half-width (i.e. 13.5mm) DP MCBs.  they are rarer in the UK for sure, and a lot pricier.  On the continent they are much more common of course.  But can you get a 1/4 width DP MCB? e.g. about 7mm wide?  This is what you are talking about really when you say "They even sell half-width MCBs so that two DP units will fit into the space of a UK SP breaker" as you appear to be not in touch with the size of a UK SP Breaker that has been in common use for god knows how many years.  If you can get 7mm DP MCBs then apologies and please provide a link where someone in the UK can order some - I would love to get hold of some!


Ref my own experience with reversed polarity - it was a consequence of live and neutral being swapped over by mis-wiring. Where exactly in the circuit it was I don't know, but likely in the Mainframe computer I was carrying out a repair on, as it was an American product and so the mains colour coding did not adhere to the UK/Euro standard but the US standard (black wire and white wire IIRC).  I am guessing whoever installed it mixed up which wire was "Hot" ("Live" in our terms) and which was neutral.
I turned off the computer by the main switch - and that switch was a SINGLE POLE switch, just like 99% of switches that are in use still today in the UK and in UK products even when they are taken abroad, amazingly enough.
All I was actually doing was changing a light bulb in a tape drive, first ensuring the power was off (but the circuit was actually still live due to the reversed polarity, and I got a shock as the electricity completed the circuit through my body, burning a hole in the palm of my hand and bounced me across the room. 
The RCB equivalent (think it was probably an ELCB back then) activated and the entire warehouse power shutdown, so no further damage was done to me (although the Waitrose Warehouse manager was not impressed as it took hours to get everything running again)

Should I have unplugged the computer?  Well we are talking mainframes where the power lead is hardwired to the inlet, goes into the false floor and then goodness knows where, so that was not practical and should not be neccessary WHEN SOMETHING IS WIRED CORRECTLY AS IT SHOULD BE.


Now going back to the very first point ... you say "Well how about just swapping the SP breakers for DP ones?" and then say "Doing this will make your motor home as safe as the European ones".
Now by inference, you are clearly stating that a motorhome with a SP breaker is less safe then one with a DP breaker.  I am not going to dispute this.
But the point of a DP breaker is to isolate the Neutral wire as well as the Live wire. And the only reason this is really needed is when it cannot be guaranteed that the Live and Neutral wires are not reversed, which is the case with the 2-pin "euro" plugs.   The reason DP breakers are not required in UK wiring systems is that when a plug is wired correctly, it is not possible for the Live and Neutral to be reversed.

The "continental" solution is to protect the consumer at the point of distribution.
The UK solution is to protect the consumer at the point of supply and then right throughout the circuit path by dint of plug/socket design to maintain the Live/Neutral orientation.  if the point of supply is wrong, the UK system fails.

It really doesn't matter which is a better way, that is totally irrelevent to the question of "does reverse polarity matter"?  the answer is ... if you have a "continental" motorhome, pretty well no, as you are protected at the point of distribution.  But ... if you have a typical UK motorhome, then yes it does, as you don't have protection at the point of distribution, as you don't have DP MCBs, OR DP Switches for that matter, and you no longer have protection at the point of supply if there is no use of keyed plug and socket OR if the sockets maybe keyed but still provide a reversed polarity supply due to the incompetance of the French electrician who wired up the EHU sockets you are plugging into.

So while your 'answer' maybe 'the UK motorhomes have inferior systems, they should be the same as the continental ones', the fact is that they are built to a UK wiring standard, whatever you may think of that, and when used on incorrectly wired hookups present a _potential _risk that can be tested for by a very cheap tester and corrected with a very simple polarity reversing lead.


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

shortcircuit said:


> Was it due to incorrect work practice that you had your unfortunate event?


read the reply above for more info.
It was due to a mistake made by someone else, so I guss it was incorrect work practices on their part.

The whole point of protective systems is to protect the user against a potentially dangerous situation no matter how it is caused. To have a potentially dangerous fault known to be present and the advice of some being to ignore it is just irresponsible and stupid on their part.  I hope people reading their comments will have the common sense to ignore it.


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

wildebus said:


> read the reply above for more info.
> It was due to a mistake made by someone else, so I guss it was incorrect work practices on their part.
> 
> The whole point of protective systems is to protect the user against a potentially dangerous situation no matter how it is caused. To have a potentially dangerous fault known to be present and the advice of some being to ignore it is just irresponsible and stupid on their part.  I hope people reading their comments will have the common sense to ignore it.



Well said ,some folk carry a swap lead though they may well have no way of telling,thats why i installed the change over unit as if incorrect a red light comes on and with a flick of the switch im over to green,safe safe safety every time.:wave:


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## runnach (Aug 16, 2017)

Does Reverse Polarity matter ? well all I can tell you is this when I worked for Holidaybreak we had 8500 statics scattered throughout Europe built in a variety of places a lot in Hull, England . It was a written standard that we checked polarity at the start of each season , No ifs buts or maybes, those responsible for the decisions qualified electricians with British and European experience.  Camping station boxes had often been rewired and the wiring could be anyway ,,,the French certainly don't understand the implications on an English van.

Considering the cost of a tester and suitable fly lead it seems to me absolute stupidity not to change things. No British vans were fitted with DP mcb's hence the importance we checked.

Even on sunrollers and Irm  ( foreign built ) it was expected that on testing the travel plug was inserted the normal 1 up 2 down arrangement if RP showed, the socket was rewired ..

Channa


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## oppy (Aug 16, 2017)

channa said:


> Does Reverse Polarity matter ? well all I can tell you is this when I worked for Holidaybreak we had 8500 statics scattered throughout Europe built in a variety of places a lot in Hull, England . It was a written standard that we checked polarity at the start of each season , No ifs buts or maybes, those responsible for the decisions qualified electricians with British and European experience.  Camping station boxes had often been rewired and the wiring could be anyway ,,,the French certainly don't understand the implications on an English van.
> 
> Considering the cost of a tester and suitable fly lead it seems to me absolute stupidity not to change things. No British vans were fitted with DP mcb's hence the importance we checked.
> 
> ...



Did you get my pm Andrew?


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## witzend (Aug 16, 2017)

sololite said:


> Hi there The reverse polarity light is on Thanks everyone



Looks like Reverse Polarity is a hot topic coming close to Black and Grey waste disposal  :lol-049::lol-049:


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

witzend said:


> Looks like Reverse Polarity is a hot topic coming close to Black and Grey waste disposal  :lol-049::lol-049:


Except with Reverse Polarity, there is an obvious, unequivocal, right answer, and a clearly wrong answer


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## Byronic (Aug 16, 2017)

Or, you could just get one of these, a changeover switch, and then go
and use it for the standard of hookup you might get in say Maroc.
Yep that's my hookup plug, no worries, the hand skin grafts hardly 
show nowadays :lol-061:


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## witzend (Aug 16, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Except with Reverse Polarity, there is an obvious, unequivocal, right answer, and a clearly wrong answer



Sounds like an advert are you looking for work or do you sell them in your shop


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

witzend said:


> Sounds like an advert are you looking for work or do you sell them in your shop



No, I provide an "obvious, unequivocal, right answer" for free :lol-053:


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

Ref:_ " I do not understand why British electricians are so religiously in favour of the British system when, I think, the whole of the rest of Europe uses a DP protected system"_
personally speaking, I don't think the British system is better. But it is what it is and it is what we have to work with and consider like it or not.
_"It sounds as though you agree that the European system of protecting at point of distribution is inherently safer than the UK system_".  That is a pretty fair statement to make, but as just said, it doesn't mean we can ignore what is in place for tens (hundreds?) of thousands of holidaymakers who assume they can plug in their motorhomes and caravans without a worry.
FWIW, The CUs I fit and sell have an RCD, a DP MCB for sockets and a SP for a dedicated Charger, so a bit of a halfway house I suppose, but the best I can do in the limited space a Campervan has, and the costs involved (as I mentioned half-width DPs are very pricey in the UK compared to standard DPs and it is better someone has at least better socket protection REGARDLESS of reversed polarity or not then not at all).  Me providing DP MCBs does not in the slightest change my position of the need to correct known wiring faults such as a reversed polarity situation, it is just a way I can help partly  mitigate the risk.

_When one considers that Motor Homes are known, by the manufacturers, to be likely to travel to Europe, then one would think they might equip them suitably and fit DP RCDs and MCBs. Instead, they fit electrics to standards that were drawn up for domestic dwellings._
Fair point, but as said previously, the situation is they are not obligated by any regulations to do so and until/if they are,  the providers of hookups have to be cognescent of UK Motorhome wiring standards. These are not sub-standard, they are just designed for a UK wiring environment.
There is an extra cost involved, and how many people ask if the CU has DP MCBs?  they are more likely to ask if the TV will work in France,


_It is normal here to connect the tops of the MCBs to the power side of the RCD by means of copper bus bars, cut to length so that the Live and Neutral wires are both connected at the bottom, the Earth (in the home) being connected to a fixed bus bar._
I have not seen French CUs or MCBs so cannot comment.  In a UK CU, the MCBs are, as we know, almost exclusively SPs and in that case, a copper busbar provides Live to all MCBs. When DPs are in use that becomes problematical as the wiring alternates Live, Neutral, Live, Neutral, etc.  there are some DPs where the live and neutral connections are staggered to allow use of a bus bar (hence my comment about you saying they were just a pair of SPs strapped together was not quite that simple always)

The Earthing standards of properties is a bit of a mystery. the last house I owned had power from an overhead cable and I can't recall exactly the earthing standard, but it was pretty weird and dated.

_ How can someone receive an electric shock? I would suggest that the risk is really only present when someone works on the circuit when only disconnecting via the single pole MCB._
Something which seems to be being ignore is if a device/product goes faulty.  it is not all about "working on circuits".  Many devices at all price ranges can be poorly made and have shoddy construction that is not evident until it fails.  depending on how something fails, it will trip the MCB. but in a reverse polarity situation, it may not trip the MCB but make a chassis component live.


now your comments in red ....
"is that when a plug is wired correctly, it is not possible for the Live and Neutral to be reversed.
How can you possibly say that it is not possible? It happened to you, didn't it? 
It happened to me because the plug was NOT wired correctly.

If a socket is wired up with the wrong polarity the UK system fails.
Correct, however usually the RCD will trip in fact even though the MCB does not.  I had this situation quite a few years ago (20+) when I moved from a house  with an old-style fusebox into an apartment with an RCD and MCBs - An extension lead that I was using quite happily in the house kept tripping the RCD in the flat. When I opened it up I found the plug was wired right, but the lead into the extension block was wired wrong. 
This confirms how important it is to wire EVERYTHING correctly in the UK.  I wonder if the somewhat slapdash approach on continental campsites that Channa found and commented on earlier is maybe due to the fact that BECAUSE the european standards have an better inherent safety built into them, the Electricians don't tend to be as thorough as any problems are not so evident?

The DP MCBs here are 18mm wide, which is half the width of a typical RCD - yup, so same as a SP, and half the usual DP MCB available in the UK  (I hadn't measured the MCBs and RCDs when I typed the numbers, but the correlation sounds the same). A DP MCB of half that width again would be a little tricky to wire up potentially due to the proximity of the cables. They would need to have a bit of a design change more then just compressing the width to allow that to work.

Finally ... Thanks for the links.  I haven't looked at them yet, but I will do so a little later.  Maybe I will be able to source some half-width DP MCBs at a reasonable price


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

Just looked at the link you provided, David.
Those DP MCBs are much more sensibly priced then any I have seen on UK sites (clearly down to demand levels) and they all have staggered Live and Neutral. As mentioned, never seen a french CU wired up, But I can see with a row of standard half-width DPs, wiring up using bus bars will be fairly simple, which is good and an improvement on typical full-width DPs.

I can't see the UK ever standardising on a similar system to europe as there is way too much legacy in terms of installations for it to ever, ever happen.  Just the same situation as converting the UK road system to LHD.... it might make a lot of sense if a finger could be clicked and everyone changes, but way too late for that.
(and it does mean we can go on holiday to Kenya and Cyprus and not take converters  )


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## AllanD (Aug 16, 2017)

I have always accepted that in theory 230VAC equipment should come to no harm if polarity is reversed but I’ve struggled to accept a live wire being connected to a neutral terminal, it’s the way my mind behaves and just not right for me.

On a technical note, once, in my current van I checked the reverse polarity light after connecting the EHU and it was on. The cable was fully extended (25 metres) and there were 3 other vans between the bollard and us so I just decided to leave it for a few minutes and see to it after I had set-up everything else. My wife switched the fridge over to 230V selection and it came on as it should, however within a few minutes the indictor light for 230V started to flash as it does when selected if no EHU is connected. I then corrected the polarity with an adaptor and it worked correctly thereafter (it’s a Thetford N3080 3 way fridge).

I’m not sure why this would happen but suspect that as the fridge was already quite cold when we arrived on site the thermostat soon kicked in and perhaps this resulted in the feed being switched off in a way that the fridge appeared to be without mains power. I’m not an electrical Engineer (but am a mechanical one) does this make sense to any of the electrical experts reading this? In the meantime I’ll carry on correcting reverse polarity as and when (it’s just the way I’m wired ).


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## n brown (Aug 16, 2017)

as i know that some reading this thread might have very little electrical knowledge i tried to draw a SP and a DP switch so the switching,wiring and polarity were clear and would show that live 240v can still be present in a light fitting ,socket or appliance even when a SP switch/fuse is disconnected- if the polarity is reversed
but my left hand couldn't do it


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

David, as I've said before I do like the DP MCB's. However, is one RCD feeding all of the circuits current regs?

We've had several editions of the regs which splits circuits onto different RCD's so that some circuits remain operative if the RCD trips. Part of me says it's not necessary there as you can completely isolate the affected circuit yourself, which is not possible with SP MCB's, rather than having to wait for an electrician. You can then have every other circuit working except the one that is faulty.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

PS David - If that's your board, you've got a wire hanging out.

I'm guessing not by the properties.


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

I think the insulation is just cut back a bit further.
Nice and neat install. I like it 

If I were doing another house rewiring for myself I would certainly consider a full DP setup. 

The latest UK standard with the split-load CU having an RCD on all circuits I think are a backward step. Typically when a bulb blows on switch on the MCB used to trip, but now with the full RCD protection a whole bunch of circuits go.  A retrograde 'improvement'  IMO.


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## alwaysared (Aug 16, 2017)

This is an interesting read on reverse polarity by a motorhome and caravan electrician

Regards,
Del


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

wildebus said:


> I think the insulation is just cut back a bit further.



I did wonder, but still don't like that!



> The latest UK standard with the split-load CU having an RCD on all circuits I think are a backward step. Typically when a bulb blows on switch on the MCB used to trip, but now with the full RCD protection a whole bunch of circuits go.  A retrograde 'improvement'  IMO.



Quite, RCBO's I would prefer, but they're still a good bit more expensive. I bet that's going to be in a future edition from the bods who need to justify their existence though lol.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

Thanks. Probably wired by a UK spark in a ring lol.

Seriously though, it's probably just where it's easier to run cables from. For example, if the board is in the middle of the house some sockets to the left would start at the board and loop on. Then the other wire might be for sockets on the right, all being fed from the same MCB maybe due to limited space in the board. It would be called a radial circuit here.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

hairydog said:


> but he's wrong about the reason for pre-wired plugs.



I had it in my head there was a connection with the regulation for L/N pins to be sleeved to prevent shock. People taking plugs off old stuff and fitting it to new meant dodgy old plugs weren't going away.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Do people still have bulbs that blow?



[old pedant electrician] They're LAMPS!!!! [/old pedant electrician]

And there are millions of them around. I see the CFL's starting to fail in a similar way as well.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

Still available to buy 60w bulb | eBay


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

It looks to me like ring circuits, same as you would see on a UK CU.
Out of curiosity just went to look at my CU... 6 MCBs covered by one RCD, and then another 7 MCBs covered by another RCD, and a single incoming master switch.


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

I thought David had said previously ring circuits were not allowed in France.


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## wildebus (Aug 16, 2017)

st3v3 said:


> [old pedant electrician] They're LAMPS!!!! [/old pedant electrician]
> 
> And there are millions of them around. I see the CFL's starting to fail in a similar way as well.



I've had LEDs doing exactly the same as well.

25,000 hours my arse!


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## st3v3 (Aug 16, 2017)

Ah! My memory is correct


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

st3v3 said:


> PS David - If that's your board, you've got a wire hanging out.
> 
> I'm guessing not by the properties.



Well spotted,also here the plastic board unit is not used anymore in houses,they have to be metal for fire regulations,ok for garages etc.


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Do people still have bulbs that blow?



Yep they do,wifes parents cant/wont change or get there head round new led units,they say to me there not real lights son,cant win.


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## trevskoda (Aug 16, 2017)

st3v3 said:


> Still available to buy 60w bulb | eBay



Though illegal now many shops here still sell 100/150 watt incandesant lamps and are unaware of the law,anyway lots of old daft folk wont change.


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## harrow (Aug 17, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> Though illegal now many shops here still sell 100/150 watt incandesant lamps and are unaware of the law,anyway lots of old daft folk wont change.



Well Trev I take your advice and have ordered some today,

ARILUX® E27 E14 B22 GU10 G9 5W SMD5730 Constant Current Smart IC 89LEDs Corn Light Bulb AC220V Sale - Banggood.com

BUT you can't beat compact fluorescent lamp (CFL) @ Robert Dyas when they were 10 pence each.

:dog::dog::dog:


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## st3v3 (Aug 17, 2017)

The only way would be if you have an earth break. In a radial everything after the break will have no earth and you'd never know.

However, as always, there is a ring downside - if you have a L or N break, everything will work fine until you plug in a few big appliances and the ring wiring melts as 2.5mm T+E is only good for around 24A, depending on length and how it's run, and would be fused at 32A. I've had this in a couple of kitchens - RCD was tripping and I found melted cable that was causing an Earth-Neutral fault.

Funnily enough, those kind of faults are usually kitchens from when a DIY'er has fitted fancy sockets.


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## shortcircuit (Aug 17, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Ring circuits are safer



I do not think so. A 2.5mm cable commonly used for ring circuits is rated at 26amps (23Amps in insulation/conduit)and a ring fuse at 30amps.  Ring goes open and then cable can be well overloaded.  Major cause of fires.


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## st3v3 (Aug 17, 2017)

There's an echo in here lol.


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## Tony Lee (Aug 17, 2017)

harrow said:


> Electricity is dangerous stuff.
> 
> *Not all campsite electrics are going to be safe.*
> 
> ...



Then again, out in the REAL world, the basics are all you can expect and provided the outlet is live, you are pathetically grateful to get any power at all


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2017)

harrow said:


> Well Trev I take your advice and have ordered some today,
> 
> ARILUX® E27 E14 B22 GU10 G9 5W SMD5730 Constant Current Smart IC 89LEDs Corn Light Bulb AC220V Sale - Banggood.com
> 
> ...



Get mine from ebay china,running two years no prob,3500 k soft light 6500 white light.
All rooms soft but kitchen/bathroom pure white.


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2017)

st3v3 said:


> Still available to buy 60w bulb | eBay



Who would want them,money wasting things.


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2017)

harrow said:


> Well Trev I take your advice and have ordered some today,
> 
> ARILUX® E27 E14 B22 GU10 G9 5W SMD5730 Constant Current Smart IC 89LEDs Corn Light Bulb AC220V Sale - Banggood.com
> 
> ...



Problem with cfl units is you must not switch of unless a half hour running same as a tube,plus they burn lots more than a led and take time to come to full output,ditch them.


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2017)

shortcircuit said:


> I do not think so. A 2.5mm cable commonly used for ring circuits is rated at 26amps (23Amps in insulation/conduit)and a ring fuse at 30amps.  Ring goes open and then cable can be well overloaded.  Major cause of fires.



What size of toaster m/wave kettle have you to burn more than that amps,plus the cooker should be on own circuit running a 30/45ah cable.


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## trevskoda (Aug 18, 2017)

hairydog said:


> They weren't 10p really. There was a huge subsidy, provided by power companies to get people off incandescent bulbs. I was once handed two cfls in a supermarket car park. Every shopper was being given them.



Me to ,but about time the gov here forced folk to change to led by law and gave some to each household.
This in turn would cut the power co requirement to pump out more power and give more time to upgrade new stations.
Most new shops/buildings i go into now all run led lights,asda and ikea do for sure,all shop desplay windows should now be changed and forced by law to switch of after say 12 midnight until 6am to save lecy.
I notice street lighting is now slowly being changes to led from the old crap yellow sodium lamps and about time to.


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## shortcircuit (Aug 18, 2017)

Having done inspection and testing I have found numerous near misses, which is what I&T is about.  What experience do you have?  Overload circuit, simply go into student accommodation and 2 X 3Kw heaters on ring. plus anything else.


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## st3v3 (Aug 18, 2017)

hairydog said:


> "Major source of fires"
> Where did you get that quote from? A cracker?
> No way could you cause a fire by drawing 30A through a cable rated at 26A. The chances of getting the right number of appliances to draw more than 26A and less than 30A are slim, but if you managed, you'd only risk a fire in a heatwave.
> Major source? Pull the other one!



Have you any idea how long a 32a mcb will take to trip at even 60a? It's around 1000 seconds, fuses are even worse.

It's not so far fetched.


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## Tony Lee (Aug 18, 2017)

"Have you any idea how long a 32a mcb will take to trip at even 60a? It's around 1000 seconds, fuses are even worse."

The cable rated at 32 amps continuous will handle those sort of overload currents without damage.

In Australia you can have a 4mm cable protected by a 32 amp circuit breaker supplying up to 20 general purpose 10 amp outlets, all of which can be double outlets.  No other fuses. No problems.  ELCBs are mandatory now but didn't used to be.  More usual layout is 2 or more circuits wired in 2.5mm sq cables protected by 20 amp EL breakers and each circuit can have up to 20 double power points on it.


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## st3v3 (Aug 18, 2017)

Tony Lee said:


> "Have you any idea how long a 32a mcb will take to trip at even 60a? It's around 1000 seconds, fuses are even worse."
> 
> The cable rated at 32 amps continuous will handle those sort of overload currents without damage.



No, it won't. I've seen, and had to repair, the damage several times. I may be able to dig you out some pictures, but the last one was a while ago, and there are nearly 6000 pictures on my phone, so it won't be right now...


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## sololite (Aug 20, 2017)

Well that little request for advice sparked  some debate!

We've moved on from that camp site and everything seems to be ok after charging the leisure battery overnight.

Those nice people at Sargent answered my email request for. Advice and they say

"When connecting to sites on the continent it is quite common to have a reverse polarity warning as they do not always use a Neutral and Earth line as we do. That could leave you with a voltage across that LED and the system still be safe.

You will probably find no problem with the mains there, but I would not test this with your charger. I would use a mains socket to make sure that the supply works before switching on the charger.

The charger is just as vulnerable to reverse polarity as any other 230v demand. So unless you can test your incoming supply I would not use the charger until you know everything else works.
"

Thanks for all your advice !!

Chris & Sharon (now in Plozevet, South Brittany)


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