# Western Isles Tax on Visiting Motorhomes



## 2cv (Sep 23, 2021)

Plans are being discussed to tax motorhome users visiting the Western Isles. Link


----------



## barge1914 (Sep 23, 2021)

I don’t have a problem with this if it results in more informal places to stay, and provision of necessary services outside campsites. 

In Germany many National park and other areas which are overburdened with tourists charge a small daily tourist tax on ALL visitor accommodation (not just motorhomes) including Stellplatzen. Only 1 or 2€ per night, but it includes free public transport to help reduce road traffic, and gives discounts on many businesses and attractions. I’ve seen that these measures really do encourage people onto local transport and into places they may otherwise bypass. It seems to work very well, the standard of public services and local transport is high. 

After all in many tourist areas the visitor population can outnumber the number of residents whose taxes would otherwise struggle to support the necessary infrastructure.


----------



## witzend (Sep 23, 2021)

2cv said:


> Plans are being discussed to tax motorhome users visiting the Western Isles. Link


Reading the link it goes further than that even mentions £2 a nite tourist tax for Edinburgh this is just going to be a tax gathering exercise by  councils with anyone suppling tourist stops doing the collecting for them. Where will it end £5 a night for a aire+ £2 pp tourist tax were up to £9 a night now


----------



## wildebus (Sep 23, 2021)

as soon as the principle is put in place, you can be sure the price will go up and up.

Case in point .... University charging.  Originally that was mean to be a maximum of £9,000 a year for the most exclusive ones, but rapidly became the standard price for just about every higher education establishment in England.

It will be a disaster and will backfire massively I would say.


----------



## alcam (Sep 23, 2021)

witzend said:


> Reading the link it goes further than that even mentions £2 a nite tourist tax for Edinburgh this is just going to be a tax gathering exercise by  councils with anyone suppling tourist stops doing the collecting for them. Where will it end £5 a night for a aire+ £2 pp tourist tax were up to £9 a night now


Think tourist tax exists in a few countries ? 
Think tourist tax for motorhomes only is clearly unfair


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 24, 2021)

Yet another cheap jibe on the last paragraph towards us.
So let’s look at this.
CalMac now treat us differently from everyone else by not allowing us alone to join any queues for ferries, then once we arrive on the island we are treated like parasites by us alone having to pay a Levi. I have nothing against paying directly for any services that we use such as elsan points, but a levy that is solely for us is wrong. What about people who turn up in cars with tents, they will be using facilities, and they are far more likely to leave human waste and rubbish than we are. Yet another article that portrays us in a poor light. This has nothing to do with the money, and everything to do with principle, and on principle alone it’s wrong. But why am I not surprised at this anymore.


----------



## Toffeecat (Sep 24, 2021)

But i already pay a tax. I pay it each year to drive on the road. I then pay tax on all sorts of other stuff to drive like diesel. Why should i pay when i already pay enough.Or do we want roads only for the wealthy?


----------



## DTDOG (Sep 24, 2021)

I understand the principle, but I'm unclear as to the legality of this?
I pay my road tax, which allows me to drive on public roads throughout the UK. These are public roads and still in the UK and as such I should be allowed to drive on them in my taxed vehicle.

If the additional tax levy on motorhomes is because motorhomers and campervan users are leaving rubbish at the side of the road (I then assume the tax is to pay for someone to clear up the rubbish) then on that logic, if I pay the levy I can leave my rubbish on the side of the road as I'll be keeping someone in a job!


----------



## Snapster (Sep 24, 2021)

Many paid aires in France charge a “tourist tax” but is generally only a few cents per night


----------



## Tookey (Sep 24, 2021)

Unfortunately I haven't got time to research this but off the top of my head I thought Islanders already got more out of their paid taxes than main landers cos they pay the same but services and amenities cost more to provide.

If correct I feel the tourists have already paid


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 24, 2021)

Another point worth mentioning.
For years these Islanders complained about the cost of the ferries.
Before the Scottish Government brought in Road Tariff equivalent fares for Arran,17 years ago it would have cost around £140 to take a car over with a driver and a passenger. If RTE was not in place it would be around £180-190 now. You can do it for £49.50 return today with a 6m motorhome. And guess who is paying for this, the same folk they want to tax for visiting their island in a motorhome.

They complained that it was to expensive to travel to the mainland, and that it was affecting local business opportunities.
Well they got their RTE, and all some have done since it seems is complain about the increased volume of traffic.
The amount of motorhomes on these Islands is tiny in comparison to the amount of cars, yet some never stop complaining about us.
We have made two crossings to Arran this year.
On the first crossing of the 88 vehicles we were the only motorhome in July, in September there was two motorhomes including ourselves.

The fact is these Islanders are amongst the most heavily subsidised people in the UK, and I am all in favour of them being so.
If they become unwell they are lifted by helicopter to a mainland hospital.
It seems that some of them are not happy, and I reckon that they mainly are not original residents.


----------



## Snapster (Sep 24, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Another point worth mentioning.
> For years these Islanders complained about the cost of the ferries.
> Before the Scottish Government brought in Road Tariff equivalent fares for Arran,17 years ago it would have cost around £140 to take a car over with a driver and a passenger. If RTE was not in place it would be around £180-190 now. You can do it for £49.50 return today with a 6m motorhome. And guess who is paying for this, the same folk they want to tax for visiting their island in a motorhome.
> 
> ...


Yes, but if there were no motorhomes visiting, what could they moan about!


----------



## Tookey (Sep 24, 2021)

In fairness on reading the article again it says that the islanders are to be consulted, maybe they will feel that it is a bad idea and veto it


----------



## alcam (Sep 24, 2021)

I don't have a problem with a tourist tax though it would , possibly , affect my business . Actually not sure if I agree or disagree . What , apparently , being proposed is a motorhome tax not a tourist tax . 
There is talk of making 'a small contribution towards the infrastructure they are required to put in place' . Love to know what infrastructure they mean . 
If it was for motorhome specific things like water , waste facilities then fair enough .
Of course that would mean these facilities would then be free to use , wouldn't it ?


----------



## Tookey (Sep 24, 2021)

I'm finding the idea of taxing each other for visiting parts different parts of Britain very sad. Imagine charging Islanders to visit Edinburgh and vice versa, what path are we going down at the moment  

BBC News - Fresh call for Edinburgh 'tourist tax'








						Fresh call for Edinburgh 'tourist tax'
					

Transform Scotland claims a Transient Visitor Levy (TVL) would protect Edinburgh.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 24, 2021)

Tookey said:


> In fairness on reading the article again it says that the islanders are to be consulted, maybe they will feel that it is a bad idea and veto it


Tookey as I indicated in my post, I reckon that most of these complaints don't come from the original islanders, but some who have moved there in recent decades. And they tend to be the most politically active.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 24, 2021)

Snapster said:


> Yes, but if there were no motorhomes visiting, what could they moan about!


The weather


----------



## Norfolk NewBoy (Sep 24, 2021)

We spent a month in the Hebrides in 2018 with only 6 nights on campsites (one to allow me to mend my rear valance). Some nights were on "accepted" places where we put £5 per night into a honesty box; several were at ferry ports. It was a real pleasure to find so many facilities with black waste disposal available free of charge.

We stopped at local shops for coffee and cake on most days and the proprietors were always willing to fill up our two 10litre drinking bottles. Coop shops, with very reasonably priced goods, were available in many villages and laundry was easy to sort.

Driving was simple: everyone (apart from one old lady) used the passing places on single track roads and most were willing to help the MH keep travelling. The wildlife was superb and there were several historic sites.

It was one of our best UK holidays! A small tourist tax wouldn't stop us from returning.

Gordon


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 24, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> We spent a month in the Hebrides in 2018 with only 6 nights on campsites (one to allow me to mend my rear valance). Some nights were on "accepted" places where we put £5 per night into a honesty box; several were at ferry ports. It was a real pleasure to find so many facilities with black waste disposal available free of charge.
> 
> We stopped at local shops for coffee and cake on most days and the proprietors were always willing to fill up our two 10litre drinking bottles. Coop shops, with very reasonably priced goods, were available in many villages and laundry was easy to sort.
> 
> ...


Sorry Gordon, but it’s not a tourist tax that’s being proposed. It’s a Motorhome tax.

*Islanders are to be consulted on a plan to tax tourists visiting the Western Isles in motorhomes and campervans.*

Also speaking for myself this has got nothing to do with money, it’s the principle that we alone should pay any tax. Also for reasons already given, I am opposed to any kind of tourist tax anywhere. This could be a slippery slope. We heavily subsidise these islands with our taxes, and I fully support this.  I have nothing against direct payments for any facilities provided for us such as elsan points.
And I to would still head there regardless, but it’s still a serious injustice to apply a tourist tax on us solely.


----------



## Essa (Sep 24, 2021)

Hello, all, this is my first post here.  I joined because,  having been incensed by the new no standby discrimination, I was further dismayed to read about this proposed levy in my local online paper today and wanted to find out if others were too and if anything could be done to fight this before it happens.



Tookey said:


> In fairness on reading the article again it says that the islanders are to be consulted, maybe they will feel that it is a bad idea and veto it



Tookey, I am an islander, well, an incomer at any rate, and if anyone actually does bother to consult me I will veto it but I have no expectation that many others will as there is a lot of vitriol aimed at campervans where I live from locals and incomers alike.   Besides that when councils say they will consult they just ask questions after they've decided what they want to do and then go ahead and do what they want anyway regardless in my experience.

It would serve the Western Isles Council and CalMac right if campervans stopped coming altogether and then they'll be pleading with us to come and spend money and fill up the ferries before long.

Please can everyone who disagrees with this discriminatory, unjust and repellant idea write to the Council to protest - address below:

Convenor Norman MacDonald
Comhairle nan Eilean Siar
Council Offices, 
Sandwick Rd, 
Stornoway 
HS1 2BW


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 25, 2021)

It also read don't come unless  you have booked on a camp site .I think they would prefer us to have virtual visits ,stay home and just send them money


----------



## Robmac (Sep 25, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> It also read don't come unless  you have booked on a camp site .I think they would prefer us to have virtual visits ,stay home and just send them money



You can not stop at my place and send me the money if you like Bazz.

Thank me later.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 25, 2021)

Essa said:


> Hello, all, this is my first post here.  I joined because,  having been incensed by the new no standby discrimination, I was further dismayed to read about this proposed levy in my local online paper today and wanted to find out if others were too and if anything could be done to fight this before it happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice to hear from you Essa and many thanks for your comments.
When I heard of this obvious discrimination from CalMac, and then the proposal to tax us alone my blood was boiling.
I have contacted CalMac and have posted their replies on here, but I will let others contact Norman MacDonald.
I intend next week to contact Transport Scotland to report Cal Macs poor behaviour towards us. If you read their recent reply to me you will surely note that they are struggling to defend the indefensible. The fact that we have somewhere to live in the event of missing a crossing has got to be the worse reasoning I have ever heard, and clearly this only came about after much lateral thought scrutinising every possible means of defence of their obvious bias towards us. So can I ask you and others to contact CalMac.

enquiries@calmac.co.uk


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 25, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> It also read don't come unless  you have booked on a camp site .I think they would prefer us to have virtual visits ,stay home and just send them money


Molly I note your jocularly approach, but sadly it’s not far off the mark


----------



## alcam (Sep 25, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Nice to hear from you Essa and many thanks for your comments.
> When I heard of this obvious discrimination from CalMac, and then the proposal to tax us alone my blood was boiling.
> I have contacted CalMac and have posted their replies on here, but I will let others contact Norman MacDonald.
> I intend next week to contact Transport Scotland to report Cal Macs poor behaviour towards us. If you read their recent reply to me you will surely note that they are struggling to defend the indefensible. The fact that we have somewhere to live in the event of missing a crossing has got to be the worse reasoning I have ever heard, and clearly this only came about after much lateral thought scrutinising every possible means of defence of their obvious bias towards us. So can I ask you and others to contact CalMac.
> ...


To be honest I thought their explanation was reasonable . How or when they worked it out is open to debate .


----------



## mistericeman (Sep 25, 2021)

To be honest reading some of the posts recently from various island residents recently in Facebook.... 
Ill be giving them a swerve for a good while... 
Plenty of other places that ARE happy to have me visit and spend my money. 

The current attitude of folks in SOME areas is likely to bit them in the arse as soon as folks start heading off abroad again.... 

I simply refuse to spend my hard earned cash anywhere I'm not welcome.


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 25, 2021)

Robmac said:


> You can not stop at my place and send me the money if you like Bazz.
> 
> Thank me later.


Do I get free range eggs


----------



## Red Dwarf (Sep 25, 2021)

I wonder how much of CalMacs decision making is to do with the fact that they’re short of ferries at the moment due to age and repairs and that the new ferries being built are long behind schedule. 









						'Utterly intolerable': New ferry fiasco as three lifeline ferries are laid up for repairs in two days
					

A LIFELINE ferry on one of Scotland's busiest routes was taken out of action on Friday for repair - causing fresh chaos on Scotland's network.




					www.heraldscotland.com


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 25, 2021)

alcam said:


> To be honest I thought their explanation was reasonable . How or when they worked it out is open to debate .


If the reasoning given in their reply was sincere, they would have mentioned it initially.
Also they say you have a van to live in. You may have no water, no solar, a full toilet cassette, and nowhere to park.
You will then have to try and find a campsite if you can get one.
Sorry Alcam but this is discriminatory and wrong in my honest opinion.
But I respect your view, and thanks for your comment, much appreciated.


----------



## Nabsim (Sep 25, 2021)

Shane and his brother were up the West of Scotland a couple of weeks ago and did a few islands. They were told by the ferry company they couldn’t go to Lewis if they didn’t have a campsite booked. This wasn’t with a motorhome or camper either they had car and tent.
I don’t know if this was just an individual and not really true or if they are requiring campsite booking


----------



## mistericeman (Sep 25, 2021)

This is pretty typical on the barra/Vatersay Facebook page currently...


----------



## alcam (Sep 25, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> *If the reasoning given in their reply was for sincere, they would have mentioned it initially*.
> Also they say you have a van to live in. You may have no water, no solar, a full toilet cassette, and nowhere to park.
> You will then have to try and find a campsite if you can get one.
> Sorry Alcam but this is discriminatory and wrong in my honest opinion.
> But I respect your view, and thanks for your comment, much appreciated.


I did say that was open to debate ?
We do have vans to sleep in which is preferable to sleeping in a car . If you didn't get on a ferry you have options that car drivers don't . So explanation , whenever conjured up , has a logic to it .
Think there are , obvious , discriminatory regulations being proposed which are more important .
_choose one's battles wisely_


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 25, 2021)

I am going to change to irish whisky in protest


----------



## colinm (Sep 25, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> Do I get free range eggs


I'm sure he'd be happy to supply freshly culled roast chicken


----------



## MikeBBB (Sep 25, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> I am going to change to irish whisky in protest


That would of course be whiskEy. Bushmills malt is excellent. As is Jamiesons. And of course Irish Whiskey pre-dates that Scottish stuff.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 25, 2021)

alcam said:


> I did say that was open to debate ?
> We do have vans to sleep in which is preferable to sleeping in a car . If you didn't get on a ferry you have options that car drivers don't . So explanation , whenever conjured up , has a logic to it .
> Think there are , obvious , discriminatory regulations being proposed which are more important .
> _choose one's battles wisely_


Many of these who work for CalMac and who manage them are Islanders Alcam.
When you highlight one group of people for different treatment it's bound to create friction.
This move by CalMac is not only discrimination, it has helped to further tarnish our already damaged reputation.
You only have to look at mistericemans post 31 to see how we are viewed by some Islanders.


----------



## Pedalman (Sep 25, 2021)

2cv said:


> Plans are being discussed to tax motorhome users visiting the Western Isles. Link


Tax all tourists, tents and all and it would be fair .....tax only motorhomes and camper vans and that is discrimination.


----------



## Tookey (Sep 26, 2021)

Pedalman said:


> Tax all tourists, tents and all and it would be fair .....tax only motorhomes and camper vans and that is discrimination.


Tax no one, we are all Brits, we mustn't start taxing each other to move around our island(s). Why create more divisions, we've got too many as it is.


----------



## alcam (Sep 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Many of these who work for CalMac and who manage them are Islanders Alcam.
> When you highlight one group of people for different treatment it's bound to create friction.
> This move by CalMac is not only discrimination, it has helped to further tarnish our already damaged reputation.
> You only have to look at mistericemans post 31 to see how we are viewed by some Islanders.


Can't really see how any discrimination (perceived or not) by an organisation tarnishes the reputation of those discriminated against ?
As I , and others , have said already their explanation is reasoned and logical . No matter when it was conceived .
Really think you are weakening a good argument by pursuing this one


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

alcam said:


> Can't really see how any discrimination (perceived or not) by an organisation tarnishes the reputation of those discriminated against ?
> As I , and others , have said already their explanation is reasoned and logical . No matter when it was conceived .
> Really think you are weakening a good argument by pursuing this one


I have read through several articles on this ban, and everyone of them also mention things like  WE dump our waste in the sea and in rivers, how there are far to many of us, how we prevent islanders getting access to the ferries, (whilst we are a small percentage of the ferry traffic) , how we should not be allowed onto the islands without campsite bookings etc. And if you go onto Facebook it gets even worse. I read one comment “ that’s exactly what they deserve they are scum of the earth, pests that have to be dealt with”. Mistericeman posted comments from Facebook stating our vans should be crushed, and these comments were supported by others. This ban feeds such individuals and even the more moderate islanders reckon that this ban is a form of retribution towards our perceived poor behaviour. If all people read about you are negative comments things get exaggerated and such poor behaviour and comments become accepted norms, and this ban is feeding this.
Sorry you cannot see this Alcam, but this ban is unjust, unnecessary and adding  to our poor reputation, and some people are just loving it.
And in reference to an earlier post from you, I do pick my fights carefully.
Today we are banned from the queues, tomorrow  we may be limited to one van per crossing who knows.


----------



## alcam (Sep 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I have read through several articles on this ban, and everyone of them also mention things like  WE dump our waste in the sea and in rivers, how there are far to many of us, how we prevent islanders getting access to the ferries, (whilst we are a small percentage of the ferry traffic) , how we should not be allowed onto the islands without campsite bookings etc. And if you go onto Facebook it gets even worse. I read one comment “ that’s exactly what they deserve they are scum of the earth, pests that have to be dealt with”. Mistericeman posted comments from Facebook stating our vans should be crushed, and these comments were supported by others. This ban feeds such individuals and even the more moderate islanders reckon that this ban is a form of retribution towards our perceived poor behaviour. If all people read about you are negative comments things get exaggerated and such poor behaviour and comments become accepted norms, and this ban is feeding this.
> Sorry you cannot see this Alcam, but this ban is just adding to our poor reputation.


I obviously disagree with you on this , relatively minor , point . I've given , what I think , are good , logical reasons for that . 
But carry on fighting the good fight . Think you do a lot of good work though I , again , direct you to what I quoted on post 32 . It really is good advice .
Have to say I think not quoting Facebook is good advice too


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

alcam said:


> I obviously disagree with you on this , relatively minor , point . I've given , what I think , are good , logical reasons for that .
> But carry on fighting the good fight . Think you do a lot of good work though I , again , direct you to what I quoted on post 32 . It really is good advice .
> Have to say I think not quoting Facebook is good advice too


From small acorns great oaks are born Alcam..
I don’t think this is minor, and it is sending out all the wrong messages to the already poorly informed islanders who only read poor things about us.
Thanks for you comments, I do my best because I sense injustice.

You know alcam I have never queued for a ferry and I doubt if I ever would.
I always book in advance.
Its a bit like I don’t agree with what this chap is saying, but I will fight to give him the right to say it. 
This ban in the eyes of some ligitimgses their perceptions about us, it gives them credence and adds fuel to their fire.
But let’s agree to differ, because to quote Robmac “we all want the same thing.”


----------



## terry111 (Sep 26, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> I am going to change to irish whisky in protest


Have you tried Welsh? If not, try some Penderyn, it's very good


----------



## Norfolk NewBoy (Sep 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Sorry Gordon, but it’s not a tourist tax that’s being proposed. It’s a Motorhome tax.
> 
> *Islanders are to be consulted on a plan to tax tourists visiting the Western Isles in motorhomes and campervans.*
> 
> ...



I can appreciate your point of view and I can understand your desire to fight against discrimination.
However, I can also be pragmatic.

I was very impressed with the provision of Elsan points, all clearly marked on a map provided by the Hebridean Council along with other information regarding motorhomes and campervans. All bar one of these points were free to use.
WHO is going to use them, other than MHers?

John Smith sleeping on a mattress in the back of his estate car is unlikely to have a cassette toilet fitted; he probably will not even have a small PortaPotti. HE will use public loos or go in the dunes/heather etc (not a lot of hedges up there). But he will be very hard to identify and looking for him would not be economically viable (prosecuting if caught red (brown?) handed should be a different matter).

WE will all be grateful for these facilities and most will pay for an opportunity to dispose of their waste in a responsible manner.
BUT some will not pay: THEY will carry out those vile acts which get us a bad name and lead to us being hated and banned.
So by keeping them "free at the point of use" it is more likely that health and environmental aspects will be considered IMO.

And if that means that all motorhomers have to pay a couple of pounds extra per crossing then* I* can live with it.
(The motorhomers who ought to object the most are those who are going to book onto campsites: they will not use these free Elsan points  )

They say there is no such thing as a free lunch: perhaps there's no such thing as a free sh*t!

Gordon


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> I can appreciate your point of view and I can understand your desire to fight against discrimination.
> However, I can also be pragmatic.
> 
> I was very impressed with the provision of Elsan points, all clearly marked on a map provided by the Hebridean Council along with other information regarding motorhomes and campervans. All bar one of these points were free to use.
> ...


Gordon,

Good post, and I totally concur with your pragmatism.
I liked the humour also red or brown handed 
But this ban for me simply escalates the mantra that we are a problem needing to be sorted out. As I said earlier just look at the additional comments which are tagged onto reports about this ban.
Yes we are not perfect, and some do us a great disfavour.
When using the facilities on Arran we always put £5 in their donation boxes.
I happen to believe those who think we are scum, or who want our vans crushed are more to be pitied. They are a minority, but many islanders do view us in negative terms, and this ban coming from such a large well known company feeds this mantra.

But to get to your main point taxing us solely is discrimination pure and simple.
Yes we are the only ones who use these facilities, and I have nothing against payments being made mandatory.
But any kind of tourist tax even if even handed across the board is wrong in my honest opinion.
As others have pointed out, we have all paid our taxes before heading for the islands,
and these islands are rightly amongst the most heavily subsidised parts of the UK.


----------



## colinm (Sep 26, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> And if that means that all motorhomers have to pay a couple of pounds extra per crossing then* I* can live with it.
> (The motorhomers who ought to object the most are those who are going to book onto campsites: they will not use these free Elsan points  )


And that's where it becomes discrimitory, we mostly use campsites with just the odd night wilding, why should we pay extra for facilities that we already pay for on campsites. Remember whilst this website is called 'wildcamping' there are a lot on here who also predominantly pay for camping.


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

Snapster said:


> Yes, but if there were no motorhomes visiting, what could they moan about!


The weather,  midges , ticks,    independence ,  wee Mrs  Cranky  , Nessie  is a  con , alcohol  is expencive , goes dark to early in winter , no solar harvest, no income because motorhomers  have fled .


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> The weather,  midges , ticks,    independence ,  wee Mrs  Cranky  , Nessie  is a  con , alcohol  is expencive , goes dark to early in winter , no solar harvest, no income because motorhomers  have fled .


Who said Nessie is a con, the days are longer in summer, Barra will never get independence, and you lot reckon skin so soft will sort out the midges


----------



## Norfolk NewBoy (Sep 26, 2021)

colinm said:


> And that's where it becomes discrimitory, we mostly use campsites with just the odd night wilding, why should we pay extra for facilities that we already pay for on campsites. Remember whilst this website is called 'wildcamping' there are a lot on here who also predominantly pay for camping.



When I cross the Thames at Dartford I pay more than folk who have an address in the locality. Is that discrimination? (It probably affects more vehicles every day than use CalMac every year: a worthy fight?)
When I crossed the Itchen Bridge (https://www.southampton.gov.uk/travel-transport/apply-pay/itchen-bridge/) they wanted me to pay £25 because my MH is more than 2.39m high at the front axle, so it classes as HGV whereas a typical PVC would pay £1.40 . Is that discrimination? (I managed to get it waived and I've never been back.)
When I visit Dunelm Mills at Wisbech I cannot get in with my MH because of the height barriers, whereas I can go to Norwich. Is that discrimination?
How many battles do we need to fight?

I don't *like *the thought of paying more for anything BUT I accept that the facilities which I use need to be paid for. IF they stick £2 on each ferry crossing then repeating my holiday would cost me £10 more. If they charge £2 for each Elsan empty then my holiday would probably cost £20-30 more (I didn't count my usage: sometimes I would empty when we arrived in the evening and then again before catching the ferry in the morning.)

The financial aspect is almost secondary, if you are concerned about principles.
But I recall that the only "paid for" point was £3 at the Council depot just outside Tarbert.
If the "MH tax" was £10 per crossing then I possibly would never go back.

Gordon


----------



## barryd (Sep 26, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> I can appreciate your point of view and I can understand your desire to fight against discrimination.
> However, I can also be pragmatic.
> 
> I was very impressed with the provision of Elsan points, all clearly marked on a map provided by the Hebridean Council along with other information regarding motorhomes and campervans. All bar one of these points were free to use.
> ...



I agree.  Put in as many water and waste points as possible and make them free or perhaps a donation.  I would happily pay a tax for that because you are quite right.  The lowlifes if they have to pay just wont bother and dump their waste wherever and the next thing is we all get banned. 

Personally I wouldnt mind if they did away with the Equivalent road fund tariff on many of the routes or just made it available for residents.   I can remember paying £160+ for some islands (mainly Arran) and I can also remember that when they dropped right down thats when the grumbling started.  I would rather that happened than blanket bans on wilding or Cal Mac messages popping up when you book for places like Mull saying you should make sure you have a site booked (not enforceable I dont think) but that whole attitude put me off so I didnt bother going.  Well that and the fact they wouldnt let me join their Facebook group.


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Who said Nessie is a con, the days are longer in summer, Barra will never get independence, and you lot reckon skin so soft will sort out the midges


And the Bay City  Rollers were  crap


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> And the Bay City  Rollers were  crap


So were the spice girls


----------



## mistericeman (Sep 26, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> So were the spice girls


Wouldn't mind a quid for every album/record they sold though.... ;-)


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

mistericeman said:


> Wouldn't mind a quid for every album/record they sold though.... ;-)


----------



## Norfolk NewBoy (Sep 26, 2021)

Norfolk NewBoy said:


> The financial aspect is almost secondary, if you are concerned about principles.
> But I recall that the only "paid for" point was £3 at the Council depot just outside Tarbert.
> *If the "MH tax" was £10 per crossing then I possibly would never go back.*
> 
> Gordon



Not long after writing this I realised that I'm "happy"  to pay Brittany Ferries almost £1000 for a month of wild camping in Spain.
To quote Fagin in Oliver! "perhaps I'd better think it out again".

Gordon


----------



## MikeBBB (Sep 26, 2021)

I fully expect to find ‘free ‘camping’ in vehicles’ essentially either banned or at least almost impossible, in OH, within the foreseeable future.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

MikeBBB said:


> I fully expect to find ‘free ‘camping’ in vehicles’ essentially either banned or at least almost impossible, in OH, within the foreseeable future.


And would this be desirable.
There are already restrictions on Tiree, but I reckon they are sensible.


----------



## saxonborg (Sep 26, 2021)

Can I just say that if this is discrimination then it’s not just against  Uk motorhomers and motor caravanners but all the potential European visitors that we could have.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 26, 2021)

saxonborg said:


> Can I just say that if this is discrimination then it’s not just against  Uk motorhomers and motor caravanners but all the potential European visitors that we could have.


That’s a good point.
I first visited the Uists in the 70s, and I have visited most of the OH.
But never in a Motorhome.
I found the locals warm friendly, and welcoming.
I am astounded at some of the reports I have read, and comments made on FB.
Its as if these fine people have changed beyond all recognition.
And if that’s the case it’s extremely sad.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Sep 26, 2021)

If the proposed tax is used to subsidise the provision and maintenance of Elsan points and water supplies, then I’m all for it.  I think it’s morally and ecologically beneficial, and will benefit us in the long term.

Re CalMac, I’ve missed that. What’s the actual rule now?  Can I queue if I’ve prebooked?


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

It's not just about free camping it's about being able to stop when you are too tired to drive safely at night.


----------



## barryd (Sep 26, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> If the proposed tax is used to subsidise the provision and maintenance of Elsan points and water supplies, then I’m all for it.  I think it’s morally and ecologically beneficial, and will benefit us in the long term.
> 
> Re CalMac, I’ve missed that. What’s the actual rule now?  Can I queue if I’ve prebooked?



yes if you prebook you just turn up as normal and get in whatever lane they tell you to.  You just cant wait for a ferry without a reservation like you use to (I think) I travelled on one back from Arran a week back and prebooked but for the first time ever when I booked it it was six or seven days before there was anything free.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Sep 26, 2021)

barryd said:


> yes if you prebook you just turn up as normal and get in whatever lane they tell you to.  You just cant wait for a ferry without a reservation like you use to (I think) I travelled on one back from Arran a week back and prebooked but for the first time ever when I booked it it was six or seven days before there was anything free.


Thank you for the clarification. I’ll bear that in mind.


----------



## Rolyan57 (Sep 26, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> It's not just about free camping it's about being able to stop when you are too tired to drive safely at night.


Is it though?  Really?  I can’t be the only one to think that I’ve driven for very many decades and I’ve never had to stop and sleep overnight in a beauty spot because I was too tired to drive safely.

My fear would be that if we use that argument, we dilute the real message and also make it easy to be dismissed. Which then dismisses the bigger argument by association.

Just my opinion obviously, I’m not dismissing the general safety message to not drive when tired etc.


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

Rolyan57 said:


> Is it though?  Really?  I can’t be the only one to think that I’ve driven for very many decades and I’ve never had to stop and sleep overnight in a beauty spot because I was too tired to drive safely.
> 
> My fear would be that if we use that argument, we dilute the real message and also make it easy to be dismissed. Which then dismisses the bigger argument by association.
> 
> Just my opinion obviously, I’m not dismissing the general safety message to not drive when tired etc.


If the real message is we want free camping in our expencive  motorhomes won't do us  any favours .as now their are many more motorhomes looking for free spots . All we can hope for is resenably price air types stops .councils are not interested and direct us to sites we do not need or want to use .


----------



## linkshouse (Sep 27, 2021)

Certainly, for me, it is not about free camping. It is about not wanting to be herded into the same space as a load of other people. This is why I'm not sure that I would like Aires any more than I would like campsites.

Give me a remote/isolated spot miles from any neighbour - perfect!

As for the expensive motorhome not then paying for accommodation argument - surely that is why they're so expensive - so that they can be self-sufficient.


----------



## barryd (Sep 27, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> Certainly, for me, it is not about free camping. It is about not wanting to be herded into the same space as a load of other people. This is why I'm not sure that I would like Aires any more than I would like campsites.
> 
> Give me a remote/isolated spot miles from any neighbour - perfect!
> 
> As for the expensive motorhome not then paying for accommodation argument - surely that is why they're so expensive - so that they can be self-sufficient.



I know what you mean. I think most on this site probably love to find remote wild spots on their own away from the madding crowd.  Trouble is its proving more and more difficult. Sites like "Search for Sites" and various groups on facebook etc have them all covered now and as we know the country has gone motorhome crazy.  Its honestly felt like being in France this year, with vans everywhere.   Right now we are nearing the end of a trip we started in June and I think we are going to finish up in the Lake District this week at some point but just reading stuff online I think we might struggle to find wild spots or sites or CLs!!  

A lot of places I called up in Dumfries and Galloway were full, especially on weekends even now!  So in some cases even if you wanted a site or CL you might not get one so something has got to give.  Its one thing trying to herd everyone onto sites but if the sites are all full then where are these surplus vans going to go?


----------



## Tookey (Sep 27, 2021)

barryd said:


> I know what you mean. I think most on this site probably love to find remote wild spots on their own away from the madding crowd.  Trouble is its proving more and more difficult. Sites like "Search for Sites" and various groups on facebook etc have them all covered now and as we know the country has gone motorhome crazy.  Its honestly felt like being in France this year, with vans everywhere.   Right now we are nearing the end of a trip we started in June and I think we are going to finish up in the Lake District this week at some point but just reading stuff online I think we might struggle to find wild spots or sites or CLs!!
> 
> A lot of places I called up in Dumfries and Galloway were full, especially on weekends even now!  So in some cases even if you wanted a site or CL you might not get one so something has got to give.  Its one thing trying to herd everyone onto sites but if the sites are all full then where are these surplus vans going to go?


Barry, if concerned about Lakes maybe turn left instead. We did 3 nights in North Dale's recently, 2 nights we had the location to ourselves and the other night we shared it but funnily enough the other camper hadn't planned to stay there but a road closure forced it. The only concentration of Wilders we saw was next to the Ribblehead viaduct when heading back south


----------



## barryd (Sep 27, 2021)

Tookey said:


> Barry, if concerned about Lakes maybe turn left instead. We did 3 nights in North Dale's recently, 2 nights we had the location to ourselves and the other night we shared it but funnily enough the other camper hadn't planned to stay there but a road closure forced it. The only concentration of Wilders we saw was next to the Ribblehead viaduct when heading back south



Thanks but I live in the North Yorkshire Dales  So I would in effect be going home.  The Lakes is a final stopover on our way home to be honest.  If its crammed still we will just hop over the A66 back home (Richmond / Barnard Castle).


----------



## leetori (Sep 27, 2021)

The last part about mororhome users leaving rubbish and human waste is laughable! Ive never done such a thing and never seen it happen on my travels around home in Aberdeenshire and Cairngorms. I’ve had a couple of Karen’s with dogs try to scold me about overnight parking and giving the same human waste comment. As soon as I mention dog waste hanging off trees like Christmas decorations they soon scurry off


----------



## Biggarmac (Sep 27, 2021)

My relatives on the outer Hebrides have said how good it was to see the visitors return.  They also noted how few motorhomes got there.  The quotes from "islanders" further up this thread were not island names.  They also have difficulty getting ferry bookings when they need to get off or on the Islands on specific dates.  They do not blame the visitors.  They blame mismanagement at Cal Mac.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 27, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> Certainly, for me, it is not about free camping. It is about not wanting to be herded into the same space as a load of other people. This is why I'm not sure that I would like Aires any more than I would like campsites.
> 
> Give me a remote/isolated spot miles from any neighbour - perfect!
> 
> As for the expensive motorhome not then paying for accommodation argument - surely that is why they're so expensive - so that they can be self-sufficient.


I agree linkhouse.
We all have different interpretations of what wild camping is, and we all have different tastes, and in a better world what you and I want would be achievable.
Some want more aires, and others don’t, some remember better days when there were less vans and more places to park.

What do I want, well it’s really simple. I want to be treated like the decent, hard working, considerate person that I am. And I am sure that description applies to just about everyone on here. Like most on here I have worked all my life (50 years to be exact), I have paid all my taxes, contributed to this country, and even saved a life or two. I am not used to being treated like this, and I bitterly resent it.

I don’t want Aires, I want access to all of the places they unfairly and wrongly deny us, I want the media to stop treating us like crap, I want people to view me for who I am, and who we are, not what they have been spoon fed by the media.
I know I go on about this on here, and I make no apologies for doing so. Because what’s going on right now may define us forever.

What we need are less barriers, less signage, more elsan points, and to be welcomed wherever we go. Aires will never replace what some on here enjoyed in the past, they should only be required in towns were there are poorly positioned campsites who understandably due to the past cater more for caravans than us.
I do thank CAMpRA for all they are doing, but I would like them to concentrate more on how we are perceived, than the creation of Aires that are only necessary, because of how we have and are being treated right now in the first place.

Morning rant over.


----------



## Biggarmac (Sep 27, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I agree linkhouse.
> We all have different interpretations of what wild camping is, and we all have different tastes, and in a better world what you and I want would be achievable.
> Some want more aires, and others don’t, some remember better days when there were less vans and more places to park.
> 
> ...


I understand your wish to be perceived in a better light, but the media have a different agenda.  Campra have enough on their hands trying to get aires, service points and changing mindsets in councils.  When we have the opportunity we present a positive view but that is a different campaign.  For those who use facebook the group "motorhomesandcampervansagainst litter" have been getting good local publicity in the NE of England.


----------



## molly 2 (Sep 27, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Who said Nessie is a con,


Me , and I dont believe  faeries either.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> I understand your wish to be perceived in a better light, but the media have a different agenda.  Campra have enough on their hands trying to get aires, service points and changing mindsets in councils.  When we have the opportunity we present a positive view but that is a different campaign.  For those who use facebook the group "motorhomesandcampervansagainst litter" have been getting good local publicity in the NE of England.


Hi Mac, I was referring to an "ideal world" with that post Mac, I know fine well that we will never achieve that ambition.
We should all wish to be perceived better. when I say that I don't mean better than the average person out there, just the same as them.
Right now we are nowhere near that.
As you well know I do appreciate all that you and CAMpRA have done.
Keep up the good work Mac.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 27, 2021)

molly 2 said:


> Me , and I dont believe  faeries either.


Bet you told the kids Santa was a myth when they were three Molly.


----------



## Kraken (Sep 27, 2021)

We're just back from 3 weeks doing Barra to Butt of Lewis which was reprise of a trip we did 3 years ago. We were very undecided about whether to go after reading all the bad press about how we would be unwelcome, but with one exception (a 'local' with English accent) we found nothing but acceptance and friendliness including from the crew on every Calmac boat we used (7 in total). The big difference this time around was that there could be no spontaneity, we had to pre-book all the crossings so the itinerary was fixed. Last time we wild camped except when we needed water & emptying (3 times), this time we only wild camped 3 times and one of those was because the ferry was cancelled due to Covid amongst the crew - that got us out of a hole because we couldn't find a single space on campsites on Skye so went back to a lovely spot near Tarbert which we remembered from the previous trip and had a great extra walk into the bargain. 

This time around we ate out more and deliberately arrived with little food, fuel or gas and consequently spent well over £1500 (not including ferries) in the three weeks we were there, so I would resent any motorhome tax as I think we more than adequately contributed to the island economy. However there was a noticeable increase in motorhome numbers (about 20 just on the Oban-Barra crossing, but we only saw one European whereas in 2018 they were commonplace. The rentals were everywhere but those we saw were all well behaved and loving it. 

So don't be put off by what you read on facebook, the islanders are as welcoming as ever and shops & restaurants are really pleased that we're back. There will always be moaners and you ignore them at your peril so if it costs a few quid to shut them up and open up freedom camping again I'd pay, but might be less inclined to spend on other things.

By way of comparison, we've done two 3-month trips in New Zealand in recent years where they've embraced the self-contained motorhome movement, with most small towns having a waste disposal & water facility - usually free - but even there I was verbally disapproved of by a lady in a village service station despite just having spent $300 (£150) there. There's no pleasing some folk!


----------



## alcam (Sep 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> I understand your wish to be perceived in a better light, but the media have a different agenda.  Campra have enough on their hands trying to get aires, service points and changing mindsets in councils.  When we have the opportunity we present a positive view but that is a different campaign.  For those who use facebook the group "motorhomesandcampervansagainst litter" have been getting good local publicity in the NE of England.


Think we should stop worrying about terminology too much . If there is a parking spot with an elsan dump it's an Aire .
As far as I'm aware the French were forced to provide Aires because campervans were a problem . 
We all enjoy the extra freedom in France but many of the hotspots have limited access/parking in tourist season 
We are still in many places in France seen as a problem 
Uphill battle but I think there is some light at the end of the tunnel


----------



## Jimhunterj4 (Sep 27, 2021)

We visited the outer Hebrides 3 years ago and had an amazing time, I can tell you now that I will not be back if I am taxed, with the hatred from certain groups on Facebook  against us (nc500 the dirty truth) and the attitude towards us I’m going to be sticking to my normal haunts, central scotland and the beautiful north  Yorkshire. As far as I can tell we as motorhomers are being deliberately targeted and hated, quite sad really


----------



## Chrisinchip (Sep 27, 2021)

Fascinating thread. Did a tour around in the Hebrides 4 years back, mainly sites with the odd wild camp, always off grid though. We found back then that some superb wild camping spots previously recommended had been "made difficult" with tree trunks etc. so clearly there were issues back then. The explosion of MH use, which, if I am to believe what I have read, has brought about some ignorant and shamefully bad behaviours as well congestion (especially bad on the NC500).

There is a problem that needs to be solved, in fact several, ranging from congestion (land and water), messy campers, enforcement, keeping it wild despite numbers, local livelihoods, inexperienced campers/drivers and finally probably the hardest to deal with, the reputation of a majority tarnished by a minority.  

New Zealand, famed for free camping and stunning landscapes, is actually quite regulated. In some areas wild camping is completely forbidden and subject to fines (on the spot I think, but never tested it!), or is restricted to specific parking areas (some very rural, some in towns); MH/Campervan wild camping is conditional on the vehicle having a self-sufficiency certificate.  Since we live on a congested planet, we need regulation and services to brings us freedom, albeit controlled, because most of us want that freedom laced with comfort and convenience. Somebody who wants real freedom can pack a rucksack and walk into the hills and will be gloriously undisturbed. 

So if this is more than a temporary glitch in the Scottish holiday experience (or any other rural location) then lets take a leaf out of NZ's book. It will need a gammut of sensible measures put in place to weedle out the bad'uns, make sure the right vehicles are on the road and facilities (incl information) exist to make good practice easy and bring in important revenue to the area. This will take a combination of interest groups, councils and central govt (oh no!) to make it all work in a coordinated way ... and money. Nothing can be set up for free even if in the end it is cost neutral.  Along the way, some are going to feel miffed but hopefully the majority would have more freedom and better coexistence with locals than the prevailing emotions and practicalities will allow.

Now I am off to find a squadron of flying pigs, probably before the above happens!


----------



## davef (Sep 27, 2021)

Assuming foreign travel reverts to normal next year, I imagine the perceived " motorhome menace" will fade away. Facebook often seems to draw out the worst in people and the worst people - I keep away from it like the  plague. Living on Arran, I haven't noticed much anti-motorhome sentiment,( there are always a few, just as there are always a few anti-English or foreigner, or generally anti-anything), after all many islanders own a campervan or motorhome so that when they get stuck on the mainland with the ferry frequently not running, they have somewhere to stay the night. In the last year here, 25% of scheduled ferry crossings did not run - so on average if you get back to the ferry terminal you've a 1 in 4 chance of not getting back. An atrocious Scottish government owned service., which has effectively stopped any rival from operating, causing general annoyance and frustration.


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 28, 2021)

If we tried to figure out how much tax we pay in our lives it would be astounding.
Income tax, national insurance, stamp duty, capital gains tax, fuel tax, VAT, road tax, insurance tax, it just goes on and on and on. The way I see this is all of this money goes to our politicians who then decide how it should be spent. Now as we contribute over £9billion a year you would think that some of this vast amount would be put back into projects that would facilitate what we all love to do.

But from what I see unlike many other pastimes who benefit from this government expenditure, we seem to have more money spent to prevent us from enjoying what we do than what little is spent to help us enjoy what we do. And more than anything it’s this lack of investment that has created many of the issues that we and locals are having to endure.

If what is going on right now continues then we may reach a point when sales of motorhomes slump and this would lead to a loss of revenue for the government, businesses failing, and some of the 126,000 employed may lose their jobs.

So for me any form of tourist tax is a slippery slope. Yes it may only be 1-2% to start with but you can bet your bottom dollar it will become a cash cow. look at car parking charges. In Glasgow charges were introduced in the 60s. Initially the charges only covered the cost of the meters, and the cost of paying the wardens. Also then only the city centre was covered. Now Glasgow needs the exorbitant charges to survive, and parking charges now cover most of the city.

But to consider taxing one group solely, a group of people who have been already taxed to the hilt is both discriminatory and morally bankrupt. I am willing to pay directly for facilities I use, but that should be voluntary, and I only do this because I know these councils are not funded to cover these costs. On Arran it’s the locals that run the toilets, not Arran Council.


----------



## Chrisinchip (Sep 28, 2021)

davef said:


> Assuming foreign travel reverts to normal next year, I imagine the perceived " motorhome menace" will fade away. Facebook often seems to draw out the worst in people and the worst people - I keep away from it like the  plague. Living on Arran, I haven't noticed much anti-motorhome sentiment,( there are always a few, just as there are always a few anti-English or foreigner, or generally anti-anything), after all many islanders own a campervan or motorhome so that when they get stuck on the mainland with the ferry frequently not running, they have somewhere to stay the night. In the last year here, 25% of scheduled ferry crossings did not run - so on average if you get back to the ferry terminal you've a 1 in 4 chance of not getting back. An atrocious Scottish government owned service., which has effectively stopped any rival from operating, causing general annoyance and frustration.


I really hope so. Outer Hebrides and North Coast are on my bucket list - I really need the jetsetters to fly off to their scalding beaches and leave me to enjoy our very lovely British Isles.

I don't know much about the history of the ferries but when we visited Staffa we took an old wooden boat in favour of one of the fleet of white plastic boats. Owned and skippered by a couple of locals, we had such an insightful and friendly trip. The boat used to be a passenger ferry before CalMac. Now they eek out a precarious existence doing trips. I suspect this is the pattern all over the islands so I have an emotional leaning towards the local enterprise but it would be interesting to know how CalMac service figures compare with the "old days".


----------



## Fisherman (Sep 28, 2021)

Chrisinchip said:


> I really hope so. Outer Hebrides and North Coast are on my bucket list - I really need the jetsetters to fly off to their scalding beaches and leave me to enjoy our very lovely British Isles.
> 
> I don't know much about the history of the ferries but when we visited Staffa we took an old wooden boat in favour of one of the fleet of white plastic boats. Owned and skippered by a couple of locals, we had such an insightful and friendly trip. The boat used to be a passenger ferry before CalMac. Now they eek out a precarious existence doing trips. I suspect this is the pattern all over the islands so I have an emotional leaning towards the local enterprise but it would be interesting to know how CalMac service figures compare with the "old days".


I don’t reckon you will have any issues, ignore the morons on FB they are idiots who are to be pitied. The real people of the OH are decent, kind, helpful people, whom I have nothing but the greatest respect for. I have had nothing but kindness given to me on my visits in the past, although never in a van.
As for Staffa it’s a stunning island I will never forget my visit there. We sailed from  mull and on the way back we were dropped of on Iona, a very tranquil peaceful place. But Staffa is not an island served by a ferry, it has always been accessed using private boats from Mull and the mainland. So please don’t worry about your welcome, just do as I am sure what you always do. Be respectful of the locals, show a genuine interest in where they live, and what they do,  and you will be met with hospitality of the very best kind.


----------

