# Winterised Motorhomes



## bentleysontour (Mar 25, 2017)

HI guys,

One of the reasons for buying a motorhome, is we like to ski, and skiing is so damn expensive, and the grandchildren are at an age when they want to come to.....So a motorhome is the way to go, to cut out the flights and the hotels obviously.the German Dealers are telling me the British Motorhomes are not upto spec to deal with the sub zero temperatures as they aren't insulated and everything would freeze up.Is this true. ?

The last thing i want is to be cold on holiday, i want my van as warm as toast, and we all feel comfortable. 

Amy idea guys? Does anyone ski? Or is everyone just using it to escape to warmer climates?

thanks in advance ..


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## Nesting Zombie (Mar 25, 2017)

Hi ya,
Winterised as in 'Shut Down & Ready for Long periods of NON use'
OR
Just The possibility of more insulation & thought given to Service runs ? 

To be Fair & Honest, I 'Might' imagine that a Mainland European Coachbuilt M/H 'Might' be better insulated, But its all about Cost these days, I would say if you intend staying abroad for over 60% of the time as an example, Then Buy abroad as it might be a better spec, & Spares will be easier to obtain at a guess !.
I want to add that I have quite happily been in minus double figures in my M/H 'The Nest' & had no problems to date. very comfy, Very warm so who's to say !.
But its worth remembering that a WELL insulated M/H works BOTH for Heat & Cold !






The Nest was OVER 5 Degrees C  Cooler INSIDE, With Blinds Down,  Than Outside in the Mid day Sun !.


& Today its





The Nest is OVER 5 Degrees C Warmer INSIDE, With No Heating on at all. So it just gives an idea, it could be Literally FREEZING outside, & still be 5 or 6 Degrees ish inside before the heating on its minimum setting puts another 10 Degrees or so on that.


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## trevskoda (Mar 25, 2017)

German motorhomes are prob the best bet ,hymer etc.


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## Nesting Zombie (Mar 25, 2017)

I see your in Worthing,, Well there is LOADS of M/H parked up ALL along the sea front & when I was there a few month back I parked up for the day at Goring & apparently LOTS don't move at all (Shame), So maybe take an amble along the Beautiful sea front walk to the Dolphin Café or even on to Littlehampton Café (The Metal Driftwood Thingamajig) & Beam a smile at some of the owners to have a peek at the ones you like,,,(M/Hs I'm talking about).lol lol.


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## barryd (Mar 25, 2017)

You wont be cold in a British Van (Our Kontiki is Grade 3 insulation) but what you need to watch out for is where the water tanks are.  Mainly the fresh water tank thats the problem.  Ours is internal but many Brit vans have the water tank outside which if your parked up for days on end in a Ski resort could spell trouble.  You can get heaters for them but for that sort of travel a fully winterised van would be best.


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## flyinghigh (Mar 25, 2017)

double floor A class with inboard tanks and thermal screens for windows is the way to go, we also have two forms of heating Gas and diesel plus if you can plug in electric heating is also available,

a decent bank of batteries with solar panels ( make sure you keep the snow off if possible) and just in case a Battery to battery charger, some prefer a generator but your neighbours wont be happy!

In Answer to your first question i would say without doubt the continental MH have superior insulation,


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## vanmandan (Mar 25, 2017)

sounds like what you want is one of the larger Hymer, Carthago, Rapido, Frankia models.
if money stretches......go super size & look at Concorde or Neismann Bischoff models.
I have to downsize in the next year or 2, as I'll never pass the medical to keep my C1 license after 70.
so my 1999 Mercedes LHD Hymer S700 might be on the market soon.
has the usual Truma boiler & central heating + the optional forward Truma gas heater.
she is hot,hot,hot !!!
plated at 4600kg, has a 1 ton payload.
I'll be returning from Sicily sometime in late April, have a few replacement models lined up,
so we'll see how it goes......
in the meantime, happy hunting.


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## Dowel (Mar 25, 2017)

bentleysontour said:


> HI guys,
> The last thing i want is to be cold on holiday..



Hi, I have an interest in keeping warm too but facts about motor caravan insulation are not easy to find. Hymer only state that their PUAL insulated wall system in their motorhomes is equivalent to an 80 cm-thick solid brick wall which is little help. I sent an email  to Hymer asking for clarification of the insulation value but received no answer.

There is a standard, part of a EuroNorm EN1646-1. It wasn't what I expected, rather than specify insulation levels it is a performance specification based on time to heat up the van from cold and (for Grade 3) plumbing frost resistance. This is a reasonable approach given that no amount of insulation will keep an unheated van warm whilst out of use. I have not read EN1646 but unless it also specifies reasonable levels of insulation a poorly insulated van fitted with a very powerful heating system could still meet the standard. I expect that all motor caravans meeting Grade 3 will have insulation approximately equal to that in a Hymer.

Swift Group say "All Swift group motorhomes meet the Grade 3 standard for heating and insulation , meaning the interior warms up from minus 15°C to 20°C in under 4 hours and the water system still works."		 Motorhomes :: Swift Group

There is a fuller description of the standards at 
Winter camping

Not a great help but at least you can ask the salesman "Winterised or Winterproof?"


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## El Veterano (Mar 25, 2017)

I personally wouldn't dream of going to a ski resort in a British built MH. Even many of the brand new ones that I have seen STILL have out board fresh water tanks, which I find incredulous in this day and age. You would be better off going for a German or Scandinavian build one for sure. And the only time I ever went skiing in a van in cost me at least what it would have cost to go half board, plus 2 days either end of the holiday for travelling.


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## runnach (Mar 25, 2017)

Certainly in the traveller world and showmans world, German vans particularly are desired. One because there is a belief better insulated and better built for long time living. So Hobby, LMC, Dethleffs,Frankia ,LMC would be a good place to start. All do motorhomes

Channa


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## runnach (Mar 25, 2017)

I forgot the obvious one already mentioned i.e Hymer.

I note from your other thread you prefer the looks of a coachbuilt with overhead bed as opposed to an A class body. 

What I would suggest if funds allow is how important looks are. A classes tend to be warmer than CB's for one simple reason. The cabs on coachbuilts are pretty standard from what leaves the factory albeit may have captains chairs different upholstery etc, but the cab is basically a commercial and lets out more heat in winter than any other part of the van.

If I were full timing again, and money allowed I would be tempted A class for the reason explained.

Channa


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## Glass man (Mar 25, 2017)

*Kabe Motorhome*

The Swedish kabe motorhome manufacturer does a model that they guarantee will work at -40 yes MINUS FORTY!  If you operate it correctly. ( -40 is the same in Fahrenheit or centigrade). I know there is another one with the same claim but can't remember which.

Do get winter tyres too.

Enjoy.


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## hextal (Mar 25, 2017)

Be wary of the whole 'grade 3 insulated' spiel. Some are likely very good but others are fairly awful. The test used is more to do with the performance of the heater than the insulation properties of the vehicle.

Essentially they cold soak the van at -15 degrees then time how fast they can get it back up to 20 degrees (from memory) whilst the chamber stays at -15. I think 4hrs is the limit.

Always struck me that they could then easily test the insulation on its own by turning off the heater and timing how long it took for the interior to drop back down. But nobody seems to want to do that

I've seen the 'insulation' in a few of em, it was a little shocking, but then they'd stuck a big old heater in (5kw) to compensate.

As I've said before, I suspect you'd pass as grade 3 with a patio heater in a convertible.


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## andyjanet (Mar 25, 2017)

bentleysontour said:


> HI guys,
> 
> One of the reasons for buying a motorhome, is we like to ski, and skiing is so damn expensive, and the grandchildren are at an age when they want to come to.....So a motorhome is the way to go, to cut out the flights and the hotels obviously.the German Dealers are telling me the British Motorhomes are not upto spec to deal with the sub zero temperatures as they aren't insulated and everything would freeze up.Is this true. ?
> 
> ...


Just selling my rapido 990 Mercedes fully winterised, we go off to the alps every winter and also enjoy the winter in Scotland,we are only in Virginia water if you want a look round, it's in the for sale section on here or ring me 07768866464, andy


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## Nesting Zombie (Mar 25, 2017)

Just to ask, Are you happy for Mobile number to be shown in open Forum page !.

Just incase you forgot that all !


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## Robmac (Mar 25, 2017)

andyjanet said:


> Just selling my rapido 990 Mercedes fully winterised, we go off to the alps every winter and also enjoy the winter in Scotland,we are only in Virginia water if you want a look round, it's in the for sale section on here or ring me 07768866464, andy



I reckon your van ticks nearly all of the boxes Andy.

What are you getting?


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## andyjanet (Mar 25, 2017)

Nesting Zombie said:


> Just to ask, Are you happy for Mobile number to be shown in open Forum page !.
> 
> Just incase you forgot that all !


Yes no problem it's a work mobile and a call about anything other than work will be nice


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## andyjanet (Mar 25, 2017)

Robmac said:


> I reckon your van ticks nearly all of the boxes Andy.
> 
> What are you getting?



We are looking at a Concorde but we have to move this one first, 
As you say ticks all the boxes will be a lovely van for someone who likes off grid stuff, we can do 7 days with blown air heating and all the lights on and not have to worry about the batterys, 460a battery bank, 
Sterling battery to battery charger, leds throughout,  onboard water tanks, andy


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## m30 (Mar 25, 2017)

As a general rule, British made vans are built with the intention of going on a site with electric hook-up and a toilet/shower block. So what you tend to get are small underslung water tanks, and poor levels of insulation with single floors. 
We go skiing in the Alps in our little Euramobil, and wild camp in a little village at 1300m, no hook up and no water or waste points. With 150 litres of fresh water we can manage 4 days before we have to pack up and do a service run at some public toilets further down the valley. Its not just the water tanks you need to be inboard, the waste outlet needs to be internal or heated, otherwise if you cant drain your waste water, youre really stuck. You can fit heaters to the end of your waste outlet, but that using battery power, you can also insulate them, but neither is as good as an internal sytem.
I agree with the comments about the Grade 3 Insulation rating, and the comment from Hextal about getting a convertable through the test with a patio heater is true. You do need a decent heater, maybe 6kw, but with that you are going to need 2 x 11 or 13kg gas bottles to feed it, again something that UK van companies seem to over look. We have a refillable bottle, but the nearest LPG station is in Annecy 30 miles away.

Its also been mentioned that insulation works in the hotter weather as well, perfectly true, its no fun in a poorly insulated van when the needle goes beyond 30 deg.

Due yourself a favour, buy a European van with a double floor, large internal water tanks, wood free construction (which intern means you'll probably be getting a double skinned bonded styrofoam construction), big heater, 2 large gas bottle or an underslung tank. You wont regret it in the long run.

Check out Motorhomeski.com for more info as well

Stu


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## ScamperVan (Mar 25, 2017)

We go skiing in our motorhome - just spent 8 weeks out in France and Austria.

We have a Hymer which we are hoping to soon replace (when we can find what we want) and are only considering German ones in the belief that UK mhs won't be adequately winterised. 

We've never been cold or had problems with freezing pipes or water (apart from the very end of the grey waste pipe but as the grey waste doesn't get close to full it doesn't matter or we leave it open and collect in a small container) 

It was minus 25 at night/minus 15 in the day for 10 days in St Anton this year! (Very unusual for it to be that cold for that long said the locals) .The mh coped easily (heating thermostat goes from 0-5; 3 is comfortably warm giving an internal temp of 20 deg C) but we burned a lot of lpg and it was a 2 hour/200km round trip the the nearest refill point. We could have rented/bought a gas bottle from the campsite if we'd have been staying longer. 
At more normal Alpine temps our 2 gaslow bottles (2 x11kg?) will last 14-16 days. 
Also, as we take the dogs with us, the mh is kept warm all day whereas others may choose to lower the temp whilst they are out. 

Bear in mind that elec is usually charged by the KW so using stand alone heaters instead of the onboard Truma etc can be expensive. We have considered diesel heating as an option. 

In our semi-integrated (not mine just a picture of one like it)  the cab area is colder than the rest of the mh. We have external screens and bonnet covers, thick thermal curtain draped over the dash and extra, diy-type, insulation under the carpet which helps. 

The people parked behind us at Solden had a UK mh, he'd done a lot of work to try and make it suitable for ski-camping but said it wasn't really up to the job and would be replacing it with a German or similar one.


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## mossypossy (Mar 25, 2017)

I have a German Hobby and have been in it down to about minus 4 in this country.
Warm as toast and all the water flowed. Water tank is onboard under the sofa.


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## knoxville (Mar 25, 2017)

andyjanet said:


> Just selling my rapido 990 Mercedes fully winterised, we go off to the alps every winter and also enjoy the winter in Scotland,we are only in Virginia water if you want a look round, it's in the for sale section on here or ring me 07768866464, andy



Hi Andy your Rapido is way out of my price range, nice van!! but currently looking at the 924F - how would you say the Rapido compare's to the Hymer, as looking at the Exsis SK too cheers


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## WildThingsKev (Mar 25, 2017)

We also spend 8 weeks skiing every January and February and have done this for the last 6 years in our Rapido 7090.  I wouldn't consider the insulation to be the most important, you just use a bit more gas.  However, if the water pipes or tanks aren't protected then you will be in trouble no matter how much the heat is on.  All the plumbing must be internal and have heating ducts running nearby, the freshwater tank must be internal and the waste water tank should be in a double floor or in a heated cofferdam if underslung (which ours is and it's fine to -20 with a few mods).

I tend to use mostly local gas bottles these days, I have one refillable bottle but you can't depend on getting a refill in the mountains without a long drive and you will always end up with a lot of, difficult to use, butane in it.

Decent screen covers are important, and a reasonable sized garage for all the clobber!

It's not always cold, our last week was about 10C by midday most days in the aire at 1600m.


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## ScamperVan (Mar 25, 2017)

kevina said:


> We also spend 8 weeks skiing every January and February and have done this for the last 6 years in our Rapido 7090.  I wouldn't consider the insulation to be the most important, you just use a bit more gas.  However, if the water pipes or tanks aren't protected then you will be in trouble no matter how much the heat is on.  All the plumbing must be internal and have heating ducts running nearby, the freshwater tank must be internal and the waste water tank should be in a double floor or in a heated cofferdam if underslung (which ours is and it's fine to -20 with a few mods).
> 
> I tend to use mostly local gas bottles these days, I have one refillable bottle but you can't depend on getting a refill in the mountains without a long drive and you will always end up with a lot of, difficult to use, butane in it.
> 
> ...



Nice photo  Where is that? Not from this year?

And yes, absolutely agree about the garage - wouldn't be without one.

We haven't had any problems with the butane not being burned but our gaslow is in the garage which is where the truma boiler is so the temp remains high enough.


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## Deleted member 9849 (Mar 25, 2017)

We have only been out down to -10°C but have been warm and comfortable.Both fresh(120l) and waste(100l) tanks are between the double floor and I left the waste tank valve open with a bucket underneath to prevent freezing.

With some quality external screens,a 60 litre gas tank and large battery bank we were fine for nearly a week in temperatures well below freezing without a recharge.In my opinion the continental manufacturers have better insulation than UK built vans and can deal with lower temperatures more effectively.


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## WildThingsKev (Mar 25, 2017)

ScamperVan said:


> Nice photo  Where is that? Not from this year?
> ...............................



Valloire; and yes, it was this year.  If you like the look of the place an early bird season pass (buy in October) is €286.  

Our van has what would be called a "technical double floor" over about 75% of the floor, this is where all the services run.  The kitchen to hab door zone is single floor but I bonded 30mm "Plastazote"  foam underneath to improve insulation.  I also insulated the outside of the waste tank cofferdam and did some work around the outlet pipe.


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## ScamperVan (Mar 25, 2017)

kevina said:


> Valloire; and yes, it was this year.  If you like the look of the place an early bird season pass (buy in October) is €286.
> 
> Our van has what would be called a "technical double floor" over about 75% of the floor, this is where all the services run.  The kitchen to hab door zone is single floor but I bonded 30mm "Plastazote"  foam underneath to improve insulation.  I also insulated the outside of the waste tank cofferdam and did some work around the outlet pipe.



Thanks, looks good, will definitely add it to the list.


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## bentleysontour (Mar 25, 2017)

m30 said:


> As a general rule, British made vans are built with the intention of going on a site with electric hook-up and a toilet/shower block. So what you tend to get are small underslung water tanks, and poor levels of insulation with single floors.
> We go skiing in the Alps in our little Euramobil, and wild camp in a little village at 1300m, no hook up and no water or waste points. With 150 litres of fresh water we can manage 4 days before we have to pack up and do a service run at some public toilets further down the valley. Its not just the water tanks you need to be inboard, the waste outlet needs to be internal or heated, otherwise if you cant drain your waste water, youre really stuck. You can fit heaters to the end of your waste outlet, but that using battery power, you can also insulate them, but neither is as good as an internal sytem.
> I agree with the comments about the Grade 3 Insulation rating, and the comment from Hextal about getting a convertable through the test with a patio heater is true. You do need a decent heater, maybe 6kw, but with that you are going to need 2 x 11 or 13kg gas bottles to feed it, again something that UK van companies seem to over look. We have a refillable bottle, but the nearest LPG station is in Annecy 30 miles away.
> 
> ...





That site is brilliant Stu, thanks for the link...Really pleased thanks!!!!!


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## mossypossy (Mar 26, 2017)

you are welcome to come and have a look at the construction of my Hobby.
Only a few miles from you in Steyning


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## barge1914 (Mar 27, 2017)

*A class motorhomes*



flyinghigh said:


> double floor A class with inboard tanks and thermal screens for windows is the way to go, we also have two forms of heating Gas and diesel plus if you can plug in electric heating is also available,
> 
> a decent bank of batteries with solar panels ( make sure you keep the snow off if possible) and just in case a Battery to battery charger, some prefer a generator but your neighbours wont be happy!
> 
> In Answer to your first question i would say without doubt the continental MH have superior insulation,



I would concur, except...it depends on your age and license.That double floor itself adds a good chunk of weight. For vans well over 3500kg then ok....BUT...

We've only just narrowly escaped from a contract to buy an nice Bavaria A class. The dealer was very sparing with the truth about payloads, when we finally got to the bottom of this question it appeared that there were too many devils lurking in the fine print, which itself was cunningly concealed...and illegible without a magnifying glass!

Once one deducts the manufacturers options (what we would call essential equipment), then useful extras... like a tele, aerial, spare wheel, something for the second and third passengers to actually sleep on, and so on, filled up with diesel and gas, and enough water for a day or two, and then took account of the 'manufacturing tolerances of + or - 5% (which can swallow up another 175KG)...the payload simply evaporated...

 "Food, passengers, clothes, bedding, water? You can't expect to carry all that!!!!...Oh no, these vans are only designed to go from campsite to campsite"...Yes they really said that...and then gave us our deposit back.

So if you are approaching 70, don't want the faff of regular medicals, haven't got a license for over 3500kg then forget about an A class, whatever payload figures they may dangle in front of you, and whatever b----cks they may spout about clever design for weight reduction, ...go find a well insulated coach built. And even then delve very deeply into what the quoted figures on weight actually include...manufacturers are quite inconsistent in their definitions of MIRO, Payload etc.

So, we'll be hanging on to our little 'Bessie' for a while longer, it carries all we need, and I've insulated the external tanks so the tank heaters don't have to come on very often. So far no trouble in uk winters...but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for temperatures much below -10C without hook up. Our weak link I think would be the waste pipes where really we should have fitted trace heating. I'd be interested to know if any body else has direct experience on insulated external tanks and what the lower limit of external temperature may be where it all freezes up anyway.


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## hextal (Mar 27, 2017)

barge1914 said:


> I would concur, except...it depends on your age and license.That double floor itself adds a good chunk of weight. For vans well over 3500kg then ok....BUT...
> 
> We've only just narrowly escaped from a contract to buy an nice Bavaria A class. The dealer was very sparing with the truth about payloads, when we finally got to the bottom of this question it appeared that there were too many devils lurking in the fine print, which itself was cunningly concealed...and illegible without a magnifying glass!
> 
> ...



Yes, it's an absolute shocker the payload that some of these have, or rather don't have.

I can't help feeling some of these are sailing fairly close to being unfit for purpose in terms of the 'berths' compared to the 'payload'. I guess the manufacturers would argue that they don't actually state whether the berths relate to static or mobile. Though when you've got something called a '5 berth', for example, that comes with 5 belted seats, there's certainly a fairly substantial implication that you can actually transport 5 people.

When I was converting our 'van I bought a fair amount of motorhome magazines and was constantly ranting to our lass (who almost certainly tuned it out) about the various 7m+ vehicles that had no payload.  I remember one that was a 6 berth which, if you brimmed the tanks, barely had payload to take a single passenger, and nothing else.


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## jennyp19 (Mar 27, 2017)

Re payload the crafty b.s have put a smaller tank on ours only holds about 65 litres - weight includes 3/4 tank derv. 

If we had'nt liked the Mobilvetta so much and John has still got C1 I would have had a go and said it's not fit for purpose. To keep under 3,500 we had 293 kilos payload - this would have been taken up with 3 passengers as it's a 4 seatbelt MH.  We had already taken up over 100 kilos by adding awning, spare leisure battery, spare wheel and tyre and 2 Alugas bottles.


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