# Lochore aire locals object?



## The laird (Oct 27, 2021)

Copied from motorhomer


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## The laird (Oct 27, 2021)

The manager has been getting a rough ride here's a few things said about him which imho he can and does work hard to getthis goung p,ease p,ease support him and reply on the Facebook  page


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## Fisherman (Oct 27, 2021)

Gordon can you try and get a link.

From what I can see it’s just an idiot talking a load of cr-p about something he knows little or nothing about. But sadly he’s not alone.
Also Camerons comment on his video related to the term Aire, this has been deliberately taken out of context. Unless you are into our pastime it’s unlikely that anyone would be aware of the term.


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## Minisorella (Oct 27, 2021)

I've put in my twopenneth on Facebook. It's so sad that people don't understand and just spout the rhetoric they see in the press, much of which we know is often generated by people with a vested interest in campsites. Still we can but dream... one day eh?


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## Fisherman (Oct 27, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> I've put in my twopenneth on Facebook. It's so sad that people don't understand and just spout the rhetoric they see in the press, much of which we know is often generated by people with a vested interest in campsites. Still we can but dream... one day eh?


Can you post a link to this.


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## Minisorella (Oct 27, 2021)

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This is what we tend to get when trying to link to Facebook posts but if you look up Benarty Matters in the Facebook search field, you should find the group


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## Fisherman (Oct 27, 2021)

Minisorella said:


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> ...


Just liked your post, I will reply to Tom Kinnaird tomorrow, but I won’t be anywhere near as diplomatic as your excellent post was.


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## Robmac (Oct 27, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> __
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> ...



And a 'Like' from Cameron McNeish no less Jennie!


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## Minisorella (Oct 27, 2021)

Robmac said:


> And a 'Like' from Cameron McNeish no less Jennie!


I’m a bit shell-shocked by that one Rob!


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## Fisherman (Oct 27, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> I’m a bit shell-shocked by that one Rob!


Well I am not Jennie.
I have just posted also, but I doubt if anyone will like my post.
Unlike you I was deliberately less diplomatic, I felt some home truths had to be pointed out, and that’s exactly what I did. So your the good cop Jennie and I am the bad cop
Well done, and thanks for replying.


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## winks (Oct 28, 2021)

Good in Jennie. I’ve put my two pen’orth in as well. Not make a bit of difference to the man Tom I doubt…

Cheers 

H


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## Fisherman (Oct 28, 2021)

winks said:


> Good in Jennie. I’ve put my two pen’orth in as well. Not make a bit of difference to the man Tom I doubt…
> 
> Cheers
> 
> H


Tom is a bigot plain and simple. He refers to class differences as if they are written in stone, and pre determined by his definition of what poverty is. He even thinks that Lochore Meadows was built solely for the poor (Using his definition) in his local area, and not for the benefit of us all who actually paid for it. Well winks I was brought up in hard times in Glasgow tenements, poverty was everywhere, but then it was normal. Everyone I knew was poor, but I never felt envy for those who did enjoy greater wealth than myself. Tom clearly does with his reference to £50,000 vans being the subject of his clear and obvious envy.
And sadly there are plenty like Tom out there, that will never change. His views about us are based on envy, and lacking in knowledge about us.
I reckon he's is more to be pitied than anything else. But what he does highlight quite clearly are two reasons why we are treated so poorly at times, Ignorance and envy.


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## caledonia (Oct 28, 2021)

As I’ve said before on here. The majority of people who don’t know anything about our hobby think that these big fancy motorhomes should be using the places provided for them which in their minds are campsites and not parking up overnight in public places.


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2021)

I am not normally on Facebook, and when I was asked to go on and post on the Benarty matters site with regards to Lochore I could not even find the site. But with the assistance of Jennie I eventually got into it.
It was a learning curve for me and I saw first hand how as a group we are prejudiced against through ignorance and envy of others. I had always thought this was the case, and here it was staring myself in the face.
Lochore is a nice location, a former mining area. The Lochore project cost tens of millions and was the largest land reformation project in the U.K. An area that was left savaged by two hundred years of coal mining was turned into a nature reserve for wildlife, and a recreational area for our use.
Fife council decided to provide basic facilities for us. They put an elsan point in and close by a freshwater tap. (An obvious error).  There was a gravel area behind the carpark that was unused and they decided to use this for motorhomes and charge £10. Cars could park for free on tarred parking lots. Then three years ago they installed 6 EHU points for our use and charge an additional £2.50 a night. But to date there is still no grey water facility, and the elsan point suffers from blockages due to people putting bottles and other objects into it. In hindsight and after yesterdays discussion on FB I now think this was being done by some locals.
I have never felt unwelcome at Lochore, the staff are great, and I have had some good conversations with the locals, even being offered kayak to sail on the loch by a couple.
But one individual (just one individual) started posting nonsense about us and the management. I was pmd asking to go on and counter this individual, and myself and others did so. He was complaining that the only people who are asked to pay anything are not paying enough. He started off saying that the park was only for poor locals, not for folk paying over £50,000 for mohos. He stated that we were emptying our cassettes into the loch killing fish. I pointed out why would we do that when we had an elsan point which was far closer to us than the loch,  and even if we did it would not kill fish. Both assertions were quite frankly ridiculous. But as the discussion went on he started quoting media articles about us. He even showed the wind up article where the young kids were joking about emptying their cassette by the side of the road and put in on youtube.
What as there for all to see was how one individual intent on giving us a bad name was given a platform to do so. The fact remains the vast majority of locals have no issues with us. Tom was driven by two things envy and ignorance, and sadly he will never change. But there are Toms everywhere.


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## Robmac (Oct 29, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I am not normally on Facebook, and when I was asked to go on and post on the Benarty matters site with regards to Lochore I could not even find the site. But with the assistance of Jennie I eventually got into it.
> It was a learning curve for me and I saw first hand how as a group we are prejudiced against through ignorance and envy of others. I had always thought this was the case, and here it was staring myself in the face.
> Lochore is a nice location, a former mining area. The Lochore project cost tens of millions and was the largest land reformation project in the U.K. An area that was left savaged by two hundred years of coal mining was turned into a nature reserve for wildlife, and a recreational are for our use.
> Fife council decided to provide basic facilities for us. They put an elsan point in and close to (an obvious error) a freshwater tap. There was a gravel area behind the carpark that was unused and they decided to use this for motorhomes and charge £10. Cars could park for free on tarred parking lots. Then three years ago they installed 6 EHU points for our use and charge an additional £2.50 a night. But to date there is still no grey water facility, and the elsan point suffers from blockages due to people putting bottles and other objects into it. In hindsight and after yesterdays discussion on FB I now think this was being done by some locals.
> ...



Bill, you know that I have mixed feelings on Aires but this is a very well written post which makes some excellent points.

Blinkered and erroneously focused individuals like the one you refer to need to be countered and I applaud you for that.


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Bill, you know that I have mixed feelings on Aires but this is a very well written post which makes some excellent points.
> 
> Blinkered and erroneously focused individuals like the one you refer to need to be countered and I applaud you for that.


Rob, Jennie deserves all the plaudits.
She was more focussed than me, less angry than me, and her posts really hit home better than mine. Jennie kept her cool, whilst I quite frankly did not at times. And without her help I doubt if I could have even found the thread on FB 

This guy is so typical of the type who may go on to become a local politician filled with bias, ignorance and envy. And we have all seen the consequences from this on here on an almost daily basis.


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## Robmac (Oct 29, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Rob, Jennie deserves all the plaudits.
> She was more focussed than me, less angry than me, and her posts really hit home better than mine. Jennie kept her cool, whilst I quite frankly did not at times. And without her help I doubt if I could have even found the thread on FB
> 
> This guy is so typical of the type who may go on to become a local politician filled with bias, ignorance and envy. And we have all seen the consequences from this on here on an almost daily basis.



Yes, Jennie also made an excellent post (She's intelligent and articulate, I know her well), so further credit due.

Unfortunately TK likes his name up in lights and uses deflections, tangents, smoke and mirrors and downright fairy tales to get it there. Unfortunately I don't see him ever admitting he's wrong no matter how the evidence stacks up!


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2021)

Robmac said:


> Yes, Jennie also made an excellent post (She's intelligent and articulate, I know her well), so further credit due.
> 
> Unfortunately TK likes his name up in lights and uses deflections, tangents, smoke and mirrors and downright fairy tales to get it there. Unfortunately I don't see him ever admitting he's wrong no matter how the evidence stacks up!


Tom this man reckons we should pay £25 a night for somewhere to park with basic incomplete facilities. You could taste the envy in his posts, his vitriol towards us was bound less. He even accused us of being nasty and full of bile. According to him we hated folk in tents, and caravans. We pointed out many of us own tents, and used to own caravans, but to no avail.
All we were attempting to do was point out that we alone pay for what’s on offer at Lochore. There are the usual issues there, rubbish being left, graffiti, people in tents starting fires burning the ground, and leaving there mess. I doubt if we have left a fag packet yet we get the usual crap directed towards us, whilst we alone pay for just being there.


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## rugbyken (Oct 29, 2021)

the point that we alone pay to use the facilities was one i also made at the kelpies , we overnighted in the upper carpark & for a fee of £5 each van the warden parked us in a section at the end with 12 marked bays & said to use 1.5 bays each , next morning there was much muttering & pointing at our vans parked outside the bays i did politely ! point out that we had paid for the privilege whereas they were parking for free but you can’t talk to a closed mind like our Tom.


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## Fisherman (Oct 29, 2021)

rugbyken said:


> the point that we alone pay to use the facilities was one i also made at the kelpies , we overnighted in the upper carpark & for a fee of £5 each van the warden parked us in a section at the end with 12 marked bays & said to use 1.5 bays each , next morning there was much muttering & pointing at our vans parked outside the bays i did politely ! point out that we had paid for the privilege whereas they were parking for free but you can’t talk to a closed mind like our Tom.



Tom was the first time I got to talk to someone who clearly hated us.
What alarms me more than anything is that Tom could have been a councillor.
I remember well reading the vitriol against us from the SNP councillor in Musselburgh.
Toms hatred was nothing more than ignorance based on the articles he had read online,
with a good helping of envy thrown in for good measure.
I thought it was important that his comments should be contested.
As usual when you put facts in front of the Toms of this world they are conveniently ignored.
Facts like, we are the only ones that pay anything, we are not leaving a mess whilst others do,
we are not damaging property, and writing graffiti, and we are not guilty of anti social behaviour.
Like a child Tom latches on to the fact (And sadly it is a fact) some have left without paying.
He attempted to inform us that we have idiots amongst us.
Well Tom we know that, but then so have every other group who use the park.
Basically Tom is a narrow minded bigot who hates us because he cannot afford what we have.
Using that logic I hate Elon Musk, Richard Branson, and anyone who can afford something beyond my finances.


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## Poacher (Oct 30, 2021)

It appears that Tom Kinnaird is indeed a councillor.  Perhaps he needs a counsellor for anger management!  









						Fears for future of fenced off and crumbling mining tower at Lochore Meadows
					

Fears are growing for the future of an historic Fife mining monument, which has been left fenced off and crumbling away. The Mary Pit Head winding tower




					www.thecourier.co.uk


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2021)

Poacher said:


> It appears that Tom Kinnaird is indeed a councillor.  Perhaps he needs a counsellor for anger management!
> 
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> ...


I suspected this and quite frankly this man is a bigot, plain and simple.
I somehow was worried that he could be in a political position,  and referred to this more than once.
Well everyone this man was taken apart by Jennie, myself and others on Facebook. He accused us of hating caravans and tents, talking bile, pleading poverty receiving preferential treatment, and other things and all on a public platform.
This man is a disgrace, and should never be allowed to remain in his position.
I intend now with this knowledge to take this matter further.
For me his position is untenable.
I will contact Benarty community council on Monday to formally raise a complaint about him.


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## Fisherman (Oct 30, 2021)

If anyone wishes to contact Benarty community council their email address is

benartycc@gmail.com

I will contact them and then fife council.
To date I cannot find the appropriate email address for Fife council but I will post it on here when I do.


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## GeoffL (Oct 30, 2021)

Fife website says that all complainants must follow their complaint procedure and any that do not will not be considered by the ombudsman should it get that far. The address they give for doing this online by 'email' is http://www.spso.org.uk/contact-us and the complain procedure page (probably essential reading for those considering complaining about TK's online behaviour) is at https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/have-your-say2/make-a-complaint/complaints-procedure.
HTH


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Fife website says that all complainants must follow their complaint procedure and any that do not will not be considered by the ombudsman should it get that far. The address they give for doing this online by 'email' is http://www.spso.org.uk/contact-us and the complain procedure page (probably essential reading for those considering complaining about TK's online behaviour) is at https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/have-your-say2/make-a-complaint/complaints-procedure.
> HTH


Thanks Geoff I will make a formal complaint using Fifes 3 stage complaints procedure on Monday. If I am not satisfied with their response I will take to the ombudsman. The ombudsman will only look at any complaint if you have first went through the available complaints procedure offered by the council. I don’t think I will contact Benarty community council, I think that would be a waste of time. They must surely know about his inflammatory fb postings already.


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## RichardHelen262 (Oct 31, 2021)

How are you all managing to write on the face book page as I have tried three times now and it just says pending then disappears, I know this Tom is admin, but I haven’t been rude or swearing, in fact I have been very polite


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

RichardHelen262 said:


> How are you all managing to write on the face book page as I have tried three times now and it just says pending then disappears, I know this Tom is admin, but I haven’t been rude or swearing, in fact I have been very polite


I have just posted this morning. He accused us all of being cheapskates.
I informed him that we now know who he is, the position he holds, and I have taken screenshots of all his posts in case he deletes them.
You can post here, this takes you straight to the thread.





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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2021)

Tom Kinnaird, Whitevanman?





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						About – Benarty Community Council
					





					benartycc.org.uk
				










There's remarkably little information about the councillors of Benarty Community Council.   I'm not all sure if Councillors at this level of local government are required to declare a register of interests but Benarty Community Council does not publish one.    The council claims to be run by elected volunteers but I can find no record of elections or of advertising material relating to elections.   These next are only my thoughts and guesses.   Local Govt at this level in England, where I am, would be town or perhaps parish councils.   Although Councillors to these organisations are elected, insufficient candidates are often not found and these councils are self=perpetuating in that they will co=opt members rather than relying on the public to elect councillors.   I have no idea if this is the case for Benarty = but there is no information published.  There is no doubt though that whether elected or not Tom is an influential man.    It would be nice to know more about him.

Councillors are remarkably free of personal responsibility for public statements and the public bodies  are very reluctant to interfere with councillors who, they say, are responsible to the electorate and not the administrative body - unlike employees for example.   But if a councillor's conduct could bring the council into disrepute then it might then interfere wth a councillor's sork.     There is a Code of Conduct for Councillors which yoiu can google - it brings up pdf files and I'm not sure if the link works so a Code is attached.

Knowledge of the Nolan Principles can be useful too.   I'm not sure but I think courts have accepted the Nolan Principles as law.  Not sure about that.  But google Nolan Principles and you'll get them.  When I do it, it also comes up as a pdf file, - so for ease I attach that as well.


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## linkshouse (Oct 31, 2021)

I suppose one encouraging thing is that there isn’t a single post from anyone else agreeing with him so at the moment at least, it seems to be a one man crusade.


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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

RichardHelen262 said:


> How are you all managing to write on the face book page as I have tried three times now and it just says pending then disappears, I know this Tom is admin, but I haven’t been rude or swearing, in fact I have been very polite


I don't know if it'll do the trick but try clicking to 'Like' the group page. I suspect our Tom has become a lot more paranoid about who he allows to post and is likely just withholding permission


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## RichardHelen262 (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> I don't know if it'll do the trick but try clicking to 'Like' the group page. I suspect our Tom has become a lot more paranoid about who he allows to post and is likely just withholding permission


It looks like he isn’t allowing any new posts if they don’t agree with him


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## linkshouse (Oct 31, 2021)

RichardHelen262 said:


> It looks like he isn’t allowing any new posts if they don’t agree with him


It certainly seems that way. I’ve made two posts, they both went pending, then disappeared.

iI didn’t think either we’re overly provocative. My last one was similar to what I posted earlier on here…


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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

Well I defilnitely need to step away. I haven't lost my cool completely but he's infuriatingly prejudiced and is slinging mud faster than a shaking wet dog. You've caught my post above in first draft lol! I edited it a couple of times to keep it a tad more neutral, as in "it seems that" "your comments come across as" instead of accusatory. Even so, nothing could match his rudeness in spreading such bile, so I'm not going to feel guilty for returning a salvo or two


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Well I defilnitely need to step away. I haven't lost my cool completely but he's infuriatingly prejudiced and is slinging mud faster than a shaking wet dog. You've caught my post above in first draft lol! I edited it a couple of times to keep it a tad more neutral, as in "it seems that" "your comments come across as" instead of accusatory. Even so, nothing could match his rudeness in spreading such bile, so I'm not going to feel guilty for returning a salvo or two


Lets be clear here. I will lodge a complaint tomorrow with Fife Council, and go through their three stage complaints procedure. And if necessary I will then take it to the ombudsman. But I know in terms of removing this bigot I have a snowballs chance in hell.
But I hope that the locals are reading his vile posts about us, and just one goes to their next monthly meeting to tell him what they think of him.
It will let him know that he is being watched, and I will feel better, because right now I am really angry.
If anyone posts on other similar forums please let them know about him. The more who knows what he is up to the better.
Also if we have anyone on here who feels they can offer me some advice about how to go about this please contact me.


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## Jo001 (Oct 31, 2021)

The disappearing posts seem to be only for new members of the group, so can someone who has been able to continue posting maybe post a screenshot of @linkshouse 's pending/not approved post? That would illustrate that he is just flatly denying access to people who don't agree with him. Because other members of that group ought to be allowed to see that he is unilaterally censoring content.


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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

Reading Maureen and Tom's link to the code of conduct, it's clear that social media interaction is covered by the code. Our Tom is clearly - in this thread at least - using the group page to spread his personal message of prejudice and misinformation. He makes some good points about how the project came to be set up etc, but this still smacks of personal slight rather than a legitimate procedural concern... his nose is clearly out of joint that he and his local council didn't have a say! He doesn't respond to points though, just reiterates his own biased stance, accusing us of being cheapskates who ruin the Meadows and need to be charged much much more for the priviledge of using the stopover. I'm sure there have been some freeloaders who've avoided paying in the past and perhaps some who've left litter but we all know how much rarer this attitude is than our normal sense of 'ambassadorial' responsibility. He's not exactly 'woke' is he?


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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

Jo001 said:


> The disappearing posts seem to be only for new members of the group, so can someone who has been able to continue posting maybe post a screenshot of @linkshouse 's pending/not approved post? That would illustrate that he is just flatly denying access to people who don't agree with him. Because other members of that group ought to be allowed to see that he is unilaterally censoring content.


Pending posts don't show up for anyone except the person who posted them I'm afraid. They're definitely being held back from publication by someone


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## Jo001 (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Pending posts don't show up for anyone except the person who posted them I'm afraid. They're definitely being held back from publication by someone


But we do have the screenshot above. And the fact they aren't being approved shows he is censoring content.


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

If anyone wishes to post they can pm me I will copy and paste onto fb with a note indicating that I have done so.


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Pending posts don't show up for anyone except the person who posted them I'm afraid. They're definitely being held back from publication by someone


What’s not clear Jennie is he may not actually be a councillor. That’s why I am not hopeful of being able to do much about him.


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## linkshouse (Oct 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> What’s not clear Jennie is he may not actually be a councillor. That’s why I am not hopeful of being able to do much about him.


He’s most definitely on Community Council (chair in fact, interestingly, vice chair is his missus) - https://benartycc.org.uk/about/


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## linkshouse (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> Well I defilnitely need to step away. I haven't lost my cool completely but he's infuriatingly prejudiced and is slinging mud faster than a shaking wet dog. You've caught my post above in first draft lol! I edited it a couple of times to keep it a tad more neutral, as in "it seems that" "your comments come across as" instead of accusatory. Even so, nothing could match his rudeness in spreading such bile, so I'm not going to feel guilty for returning a salvo or two


Sorry, I should have cropped the screenshot to just show my pending post.


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> Sorry, I should have cropped the screenshot to just show my pending post.


Linkhouse if you want to post why not post something mundane on another thread in Benarty matters. Once you have successfully done this it should then let you into the Motorhome thread. Worth a try.


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## RichardHelen262 (Oct 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Linkhouse if you want to post why not post something mundane on another thread in Benarty matters. Once you have successfully done this it should then let you into the Motorhome thread. Worth a try.


I have tried this several times over the last couple of days but he must recognise my name as none of my posts have been approved.
Either that or he will be looking at other face book groups I am a member of and will see that they are mainly motorhome groups


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## Jo001 (Oct 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Linkhouse if you want to post why not post something mundane on another thread in Benarty matters. Once you have successfully done this it should then let you into the Motorhome thread. Worth a try.


I've asked if the missing cat has been found yet.


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

Jo001 said:


> I've asked if the missing cat has been found yet.


So you are in then, hope they find their cat


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

Now I cannot respond


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## Jo001 (Oct 31, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> So you are in then, hope they find their cat


Nope, he must have recognised my name. I hope the cat has been found though!


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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

I think we've been completely banished! I can't find the group now or see any of the notifications I received from the group. Most bizarrely, I can't even see any of my posts to the group in my own profile’s activity line!!! How on earth? I didn't know that was possible 

Gosh, I wonder if I upset someone?


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## GeoffL (Oct 31, 2021)

Does anyone know how to capture an entire thread on FB? The vitriolic hatred and bigotry emanating from TK is unbelievable and I feel the need to capture that thread for posterity and add another complaint to both Benarty and Fife councils.

@Minisorella : this is what happens when a group admin blocks you. Thankfully, I only made the one post (albeit calling him out) so I should still be able to save the thread and put it on my Dropbox for you to download if you need it. ... at least, if someone can tell me how to save it!


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)

Minisorella said:


> I think we've been completely banished! I can't find the group now or see any of the notifications I received from the group. Most bizarrely, I can't even see any of my posts to the group in my own activity line!!! How on earth? I didn't know that was possible
> 
> Gosh, I wonder if I upset someone?


I have screenshots of all his posts, I suspected this would happen.


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## Fisherman (Oct 31, 2021)




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## Minisorella (Oct 31, 2021)

I’ve managed to get in to view Benarty Matters thanks to a friend of mine who logged in for me with her account. The entire thread has been ‘sanitizsed’, mostly with just Tom’s diatribes about motorhomes and all the links to spurious media articles remaining. Even his answers to some of my posts are still there but everything else has been censored and banished  I’m not wasting any more time on him but pity the poor folk he represents if this is how he deals with sensible debate. !

I feel it’s getting a bit out of hand… but I’m not saying we did anything wrong in calling out his bad behaviour and pointing out the errors in his posts. His prejudice and bigotry are like any other type of ‘ism’ and should always be challenged as unacceptable. We were very measured in our responses… he was the one to escalate into personal insults. Anyway, I’m done with it all to be honest but I hope we’ve at least opened the eyes of a few more local people who might be tempted to fight our corner in the future.

A really interesting parting thought is that It seems people were very unhappy once before with TK’s efforts at censorship. The screenshot below is the first post from a page called Benarty 2 from about a year ago… a previous revolution it seems 






I didn’t screenshot the 2 comments beneath because of swearing but I’ve edited here to add a link. It just made me chuckle 



			https://m.facebook.com/Benarty-Matters-20-100605571801785/


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## maureenandtom (Oct 31, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> I suppose one encouraging thing is that there isn’t a single post from anyone else agreeing with him so at the moment at least, it seems to be a one man crusade.





GeoffL said:


> *Does anyone know how to capture an entire thread on FB?* The vitriolic hatred and bigotry emanating from TK is unbelievable and I feel the need to capture that thread for posterity and add another complaint to both Benarty and Fife councils.
> 
> @Minisorella : this is what happens when a group admin blocks you. Thankfully, I only made the one post (albeit calling him out) so I should still be able to save the thread and put it on my Dropbox for you to download if you need it. ... at least, if someone can tell me how to save it!



Yes.   Like this you mean?

I use a, paid for, tool called Faststone Capture.    https://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm  But there is a free trial of 30 days before purchase.  I use one or other of the facilities all the time but probably not worth paying for if it's only occasionally useful.

There's possibly another, free way, to do it.  Select the entire thread text you wish to capture and print it as a pdf file with the instuctin "print selected area only"..   I use a tool called cute pdf writer. https://www.cutepdf.com/products/cutepdf/writer.asp


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## linkshouse (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> View attachment 103208View attachment 103209View attachment 103210


It's a pity you didn't expand all the comments so the full context of his replies could be seen, but as Minisorella say, it's too late now as the thread seems to have been sanitized with pretty much all comments except his own removed.

He has also gone back and added some recent replies of his won to make his stance look a bit more balance (screenshot below). I think the last post about it being HIS page pretty much sums up the position though.





Sorry it is so small, but I had to zoom out to get all three posts in one screenshot.

Phill


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

I hope that some here who have in the past seemed to support the actions of some councils see now what actually goes on some occasions. Whats going on in Benarty should be sorted out, and I am not just talking about our issues. It’s clear from recent posts that we are not alone here. All I ask is next time you see barriers going up, or signage instead of blaming ourselves due to the actions of some ask was this done due to their actions or through bigoted envy. Because you can be sure if Tom Kinnaird had his way we would not be welcome at Lochore. Yes we have idiots amongst us, but we are far from the worse users of public facilities. Yet it’s us alone who get banned. 
Tom Kinnaird is not alone, I remember well the councillor from Musselburgh making similar bigoted comments about us, but he had the power to do what he did and have us banned from Fisherrow. I am sure now that on many occasions we have been banned due such nasty bigoted people being in positions of power taking decisions affecting us based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence filtered through their own bigoted minds.
Just to finish of, I am not saying that this is always the case, it’s not. There have been times when councils have had to take action, but next time a place you used to visit peacefully for years is closed to us, instead of just accepting it as a fait accompli ask yourself, was this really justified, do we really deserve this.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> It's a pity you didn't expand all the comments so the full context of his replies could be seen, but as Minisorella say, it's too late now as the thread seems to have been sanitized with pretty much all comments except his own removed.
> 
> He has also gone back and added some recent replies of his won to make his stance look a bit more balance (screenshot below). I think the last post about it being HIS page pretty much sums up the position though.
> 
> ...


Part of the problem is I am not a fb user, and I struggled with posting on it. I could not even find the thread and had to helped by Jennie to find it. But I reckon there’s plenty on here to use against him. But sadly I don’t hold out much hope of having this narrow minded bigot removed from office. It’s the same old situation in any local community. Most just live their lives and don’t take much notice of what goes on around them, whilst the few who are interested, are interested for all the wrong reasons, and in some cases you end up with people like this taking control.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

I have just commenced the complaints procedure with Fife Council.
I should hear from them via the phone within 5 working days.
I selected the phone option because I felt I may only receive a standard response by email. I want to explain verbally to someone. I will keep you all posted on how things go. But don’t hold your breath, I feel I am just going through the motions here, and that’s sad. But hopefully some will look upon this as a learning curve, I know I have.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)




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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes.   Like this you mean?
> 
> I use a, paid for, tool called Faststone Capture.    https://www.faststone.org/FSCaptureDetail.htm  But there is a free trial of 30 days before purchase.  I use one or other of the facilities all the time but probably not worth paying for if it's only occasionally useful.
> 
> ...


In many ways this is even more disturbing Tom. Here are we complain about his behaviour towards us, but we don't live within his council.
Why this man has not been kicked out of office before now eludes me.
But I suspect its lethargy which allows him to remain were he is.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

I've given up on the idea of complaining to the Benarty Community as I suspect that a certain Mr Kinnaird would be the one to receive the complaint, which would probably just end up in the round filing cabinet on the floor. However, I intend to complain to Fife Council. That said, complaining to councils is not something I've done before, so I'd be grateful for some 'peer review' of the following draft:

My complaint concerns the bigotry and vitriolic hatred expressed by the Chair of Benarty Community Council (Tom Kinnaird) against motorhomers on his Facebook page "Benarty Matters". "John Purdie" started a thread on that page entitled "Is This Scotland's Oldest Aire?" and linked to a YouTube video by Cameron McNeish praising the aire at Lochore Meadows. Mr Kinnaird made the first comment to that thread and, with no justification, implied that all motorhomers spend "£50,000 and upwards" and come "preloaded with tea, coffee and food so won't spend a penny locally". Later, again with no justification, he accused motorhomers of "hatred against campers and caravanners". Throughout the thread, his hatred of motorhomes was clear. However, he is the admin for that page and it appears that he might have abused the powers that confers to 'sanitise' the thread by deleting some of the comments pointing out where he is mistaken. This was done after someone posted an intention to formally complain -- a post that also "disappeared", and members of the motorhoming community have now been locked out of the thread and thus prevented from responding.
While I suspect that Mr Kinnaird might claim this was merely his person opinion, which he is entitled to express, and that he acted as an individual, he implicitly acted and posted as a council representative. This is evident from his comment in which he mentions a meeting with Fife council (who he claims carried on with the aire regardless) and also his comment, "We'll continue to monitor and audit in the coming seasons and if it's turning out to be a liability rather than an asset, then a decision will have to be made on whether or not it's worth going forward with or if motorhomers are just too much hassle for not enough return. That's how it's looking to me so far."
This is not the behaviour that the Benarty Community deserve. It is totally unbecoming of a council official and possibly breaches the rules of conduct for those holding public office.


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## linkshouse (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> In many ways this is even more disturbing Tom. Here are we complain about his behaviour towards us, but we don't live within his council.
> Why this man has not been kicked out of office before now eludes me.
> But I suspect its lethargy which allows him to remain were he is.





Fisherman said:


> In many ways this is even more disturbing Tom. Here are we complain about his behaviour towards us, but we don't live within his council.
> Why this man has not been kicked out of office before now eludes me.
> But I suspect its lethargy which allows him to remain were he is.


I know this is mainland Scotland but if it is anything like community efforts here it will not so much be “who is elected” as “who is willing”. When we first moved here was talked into joining the Tourist Association board and eight years later it was only by being downright hard nosed and leaving them short of members that I finally extricated myself. We’ve been here nearly 20 years now, know the ins and outs of island life pretty well, and it is the same for the Community Council, Heritage Trust, Development Trust etc. each year they appeal for new candidates but don’t get any so the voting process becomes a bit of a fait accompli.

Phill


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> I know this is mainland Scotland but if it is anything like community efforts here it will not so much be “who is elected” as “who is willing”. When we first moved here was talked into joining the Tourist Association board and eight years later it was only by being downright hard nosed and leaving them short of members that I finally extricated myself. We’ve been here nearly 20 years now, know the ins and outs of island life pretty well, and it is the same for the Community Council, Heritage Trust, Development Trust etc. each year they appeal for new candidates but don’t get any so the voting process becomes a bit of a fait accompli.
> 
> Phill


I agree, and I have already stated so several times.
If you have not looked yet, take a look at Toms post regarding the locals.
This supports your point entirely.


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## linkshouse (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> I've given up on the idea of complaining to the Benarty Community as I suspect that a certain Mr Kinnaird would be the one to receive the complaint, which would probably just end up in the round filing cabinet on the floor. However, I intend to complain to Fife Council. That said, complaining to councils is not something I've done before, so I'd be grateful for some 'peer review' of the following draft:
> 
> My complaint concerns the bigotry and vitriolic hatred expressed by the Chair of Benarty Community Council (Tom Kinnaird) against motorhomers on his Facebook page "Benarty Matters". "John Purdie" started a thread on that page entitled "Is This Scotland's Oldest Aire?" and linked to a YouTube video by Cameron McNeish praising the aire at Lochore Meadows. Mr Kinnaird made the first comment to that thread and, with no justification, implied that all motorhomers spend "£50,000 and upwards" and come "preloaded with tea, coffee and food so won't spend a penny locally". Later, again with no justification, he accused motorhomers of "hatred against campers and caravanners". Throughout the thread, his hatred of motorhomes was clear. However, he is the admin for that page and it appears that he might have abused the powers that confers to 'sanitise' the thread by deleting some of the comments pointing out where he is mistaken. This was done after someone posted an intention to formally complain -- a post that also "disappeared", and members of the motorhoming community have now been locked out of the thread and thus prevented from responding.
> While I suspect that Mr Kinnaird might claim this was merely his person opinion, which he is entitled to express, and that he acted as an individual, he implicitly acted and posted as a council representative. This is evident from his comment in which he mentions a meeting with Fife council (who he claims carried on with the aire regardless) and also his comment, "We'll continue to monitor and audit in the coming seasons and if it's turning out to be a liability rather than an asset, then a decision will have to be made on whether or not it's worth going forward with or if motorhomers are just too much hassle for not enough return. That's how it's looking to me so far."
> This is not the behaviour that the Benarty Community deserve. It is totally unbecoming of a council official and possibly breaches the rules of conduct for those holding public office.


Just one small point, I think person opinion should be personal opinion, otherwise I think an excellent post.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 1, 2021)

I wonder if Tom has any interests he should declare:







An immediate reply isn't expected.  The Community Council has 20 working days in which to reply.


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## mikejay (Nov 1, 2021)

He is a director of Benarty  community  forum if no one has already checked Link

Mike


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Well, that's my complaint sent to Fife CC using their procedure. I've asked that TK be reprimanded at the very least and removal from office considered if this is a repeat offence.



mikejay said:


> He is a director of Benarty  community  forum if no one has already checked Link


Hmmm.... I noted this after sending my complaint and followed up on it to get a list of current and past directors. I also brought up the current list of Benarty Community Council (BCC) members for cross-referencing purposes to find TK the only common member. From this exercise, I get a cold feeling because BCC say on their 'about' page that, "_Benarty Community Council is an independent statutory public body run by elected volunteers. Community Councils bring the views of communities to Councils and other public bodies._" My hope is that being statutory makes them accountable -- but I have a horrible feeling that being "independent" might take them beyond the scope of the rules of conduct for those in public office.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Well, that's my complaint sent to Fife CC using their procedure. I've asked that TK be reprimanded at the very least and removal from office considered if this is a repeat offence.
> 
> 
> Hmmm.... I noted this after sending my complaint and followed up on it to get a list of current and past directors. I also brought up the current list of Benarty Community Council (BCC) members for cross-referencing purposes to find TK the only common member. From this exercise, I get a cold feeling because BCC say on their 'about' page that, "_Benarty Community Council is an independent statutory public body run by elected volunteers. Community Councils bring the views of communities to Councils and other public bodies._" My hope is that being statutory makes them accountable -- but I have a horrible feeling that being "independent" might take them beyond the scope of the rules of conduct for those in public office.


You can find the code of conduct for community councillors here ....








						Community councillors: code of conduct
					

Code of conduct for community councillors, agreed in 2009.




					www.gov.scot


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

I have received this email from Fife Council.
However I requested that they reply by phone, and have replied asking that they do so.
But the reply is exactly what I expected.
That I should make the complaint to the community council.
So what they are in effect saying that I should complain to Tom Kinnaird, about Tom Kinnaird.
Shouting at the moon comes to mind.
It looks like I will now have take matters further with the ombudsman.

Dear Sir/Madam 

Thank you for submitting your recent online complaints form dated 01/11/2021. 

Unfortunately, Fife Council do not investigate complaints against Community Councils or its Office bearers. 

If you are dissatisfied with the actions of the Community Council or an Office bearer and wish to raise a complaint, this should be submitted in writing and sent directly to the Community Council in terms of the Community Council Complaints Process. 

I have included a link to the Community Council webpage and have attached the Scheme of Establishment document, please see section 14.0 page 22 of the Scheme of Establishment and also the appendix Schedule 4 (page 37-44) for further details on how to raise a complaint against a Community Council or it's Office bearers. 

https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/art...politicians-and-committees/community-councils

Kind regards


Escalation & Resolution Team
Customer & Online Services


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I have received this email from Fife Council.
> However I requested that they reply by phone, and have replied asking that they do so.
> But the reply is exactly what I expected.
> That I should make the complaint to the community council.
> ...


I've just received an email saying exactly the same thing. I tried following the link but that just goes back to Fife council, who say they can't field the complaint: so catch 22. I followed the link that @Val54 posted to download the code of conduct and I'm certain that TK has violated at least 2 requirements (objectivity and honesty). Unfortunately, it seems that I would need to complain to BCC themselves about the conduct of their chair!


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

This is his code of conduct.
The most important part is the first line under the heading.

CODE OF CONDUCT FOR COMMUNITY COUNCILLORS
The Code of Conduct for Community Councillors is largely based on the Code of Conduct for Fife Council councillors and relevant public bodies as provided for in:
The Ethical Standards in Public Life etc. (Scotland) Act 2000
Community councillors, as elected representatives of their communities, have a responsibility to make sure that they are familiar with, and that their actions comply with, the principles set out in this Code of Conduct.
The Code of Conduct and its principles shall apply to all Community Councillors and those agreed and minuted as representing the Community Council. These principles are as follows:
1. Service to the Community (Public Service) 2. Selflessness
3. Integrity
4. Objectivity
5. Accountability and Stewardship 6. Openness
7. Honesty
8. Leadership
9. Respect
1. Service to the Community
As a Community Councillor you have a duty to act in the interests of the local community, which you have been elected or nominated to represent. You also have a duty to act in accordance with the remit of Fife Council’s Scheme of Establishment for Community Councils (2021) as set out by Fife Council under the terms of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.
You have a duty to establish and reflect, through the Community Council, the views of the community as a whole, on any issue, irrespective of personal opinion.
You should ensure that you are, within reason, accessible to your local community and local residents. You should not attend meetings or events in your capacity as a Community Councillor under the influence of any substance which may impair your judgement or conduct.
Various mechanisms to enable the general community to express their views, i.e. suggestion boxes, community surveys, opinion polls should be made available where appropriate.
SCHEDULE 3


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> I've just received an email saying exactly the same thing. I tried following the link but that just goes back to Fife council, who say they can't field the complaint: so catch 22. I followed the link that @Val54 posted to download the code of conduct and I'm certain that TK has violated at least 2 requirements (objectivity and honesty). Unfortunately, it seems that I would need to complain to BCC themselves about the conduct of their chair!


If they stick to this nonsense, then we have to complain to the ombudsman about TK and Fifes complaints procedures.
I await my phone call, I will keep you all posted.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

The SPSO will only look at a complaint after you have followed the council's own complaint procedure. Normally that would mean the complaint would be looked at by an officer not involved in the substance of the complaint. Clearly that won't happen here. If TK fails to respond within a reasonable period then you will be able to use that to force the SPSO to investigate.

Although it will take time, you need to give him enough rope to "hang" himself, as the saying goes.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> I've given up on the idea of complaining to the Benarty Community as I suspect that a certain Mr Kinnaird would be the one to receive the complaint, which would probably just end up in the round filing cabinet on the floor. However, I intend to complain to Fife Council. That said, complaining to councils is not something I've done before, so I'd be grateful for some 'peer review' of the following draft:
> 
> My complaint concerns the bigotry and vitriolic hatred expressed by the Chair of Benarty Community Council (Tom Kinnaird) against motorhomers on his Facebook page "Benarty Matters". "John Purdie" started a thread on that page entitled "Is This Scotland's Oldest Aire?" and linked to a YouTube video by Cameron McNeish praising the aire at Lochore Meadows. Mr Kinnaird made the first comment to that thread and, with no justification, implied that all motorhomers spend "£50,000 and upwards" and come "preloaded with tea, coffee and food so won't spend a penny locally". Later, again with no justification, he accused motorhomers of "hatred against campers and caravanners". Throughout the thread, his hatred of motorhomes was clear. However, he is the admin for that page and it appears that he might have abused the powers that confers to 'sanitise' the thread by deleting some of the comments pointing out where he is mistaken. This was done after someone posted an intention to formally complain -- a post that also "disappeared", and members of the motorhoming community have now been locked out of the thread and thus prevented from responding.
> While I suspect that Mr Kinnaird might claim this was merely his person opinion, which he is entitled to express, and that he acted as an individual, he implicitly acted and posted as a council representative. This is evident from his comment in which he mentions a meeting with Fife council (who he claims carried on with the aire regardless) and also his comment, "We'll continue to monitor and audit in the coming seasons and if it's turning out to be a liability rather than an asset, then a decision will have to be made on whether or not it's worth going forward with or if motorhomers are just too much hassle for not enough return. That's how it's looking to me so far."
> This is not the behaviour that the Benarty Community deserve. It is totally unbecoming of a council official and possibly breaches the rules of conduct for those holding public office.


Excellent Geoff well done.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

Val54 said:


> The SPSO will only look at a complaint after you have followed the council's own complaint procedure. Normally that would mean the complaint would be looked at by an officer not involved in the substance of the complaint. Clearly that won't happen here. If TK fails to respond within a reasonable period then you will be able to use that to force the SPSO to investigate.
> 
> Although it will take time, you need to give him enough rope to "hang" himself, as the saying goes.


You should also bear in mind that the content past and future of this thread might also be part of an SPSO investigation.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

The code of conduct can be downloaded in PDF form using the link @Val54 provided upthread. However, three sections from the code of conduct that I feel TK has violated follow:


> *Objectivity*
> In all your decisions and opinions as a Community Councillor, you must endeavour to represent the overall views of your community, taking account of information which is provided to you or is publicly available, assessing its merit and gathering information as appropriate, _whilst laying aside personal opinions or preferences_.
> You may be appointed or nominated by your Community Council to serve as a member of another representative body. You should ensure that this Code of Conduct is observed when carrying out the duties of the other body.
> You are free to have political and/or religious affiliations; however you must ensure that you represent the interests of your community and Community Council and not the interests of a particular political party or other group.
> ...


Clearly, he has not laid aside his personal opinions and preferences in his attack on motorhomers. He has implicitly implied that all motorhomes cost over £50k and that motorhomers hate tent campers and caravanners -- both false. He most definitely has not extended respect to our community.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Just got this from Fife Council

Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, this department only has access to email as we are home working and not provided with mobile telephones so could not comply with your preferred contact method. 

We are sorry that we are in this position. This department sought advice internally about the matter and were given the process that we shared with you as to how you could raise your complaint. We remain unclear who would be best to contact you given that Fife Council do not investigate complaints about Community Councils and respectfully ask that you follow the process in your issue concerning Benarty Community Council.

Perhaps an email to community.councils@fife.gov.uk would give you access directly to colleagues that could respond to the likely questions you may have

Kind regards

Escalation & Resolution Team
Customer & Online Services

My reply

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thanks again for your reply, but I am astounded that Fife council have no way of contacting anyone by phone.

The solution to this issue you have offered myself, and others is completely unacceptable.
What you are basically saying is that I should complain to Tom Kinnaird about Tom Kinnaird.
Surely Fife council must accept responsibility for the actions of their elected councillors and community council officials.
Writing to Benarty council to complain about Tom Kinnaird would be akin to shouting at the moon.
A complete waste of time in my honest opinion.

If this is indeed the only way this matter can be looked into, then I will have to take this to the Ombudsman Service.
 Thanks again for your replies.

Regards


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## caledonia (Nov 1, 2021)

As I posted earlier the average Joe who knows nothing about our hobby thinks we should use the places provided for our big fancy motorhomes which are campsites. I agree big Tam is probably jealous and has nothing better to do with his time but unless a complaint lands on the desk of a fellow motorhome owner the words farting and thunder spring to mind.


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## myvanwy (Nov 1, 2021)

Just a thought guys, do you add receipts to your emails? I know, sucking eggs.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Just got this from Fife Council
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> ...


Here's what the document Fife Council sent me says about complaints:

_A complaint can be made in writing or by email to the Chairperson, Secretary or Treasurer. If the complaint is about an office-bearer, they should not handle the complaint and another member of the community council should be identified to handle the complaint._

Now two of the four office-bearers are the person the complaint is about and his wife and I suspect that (as this is a _community_ organisation) the other two are unlikely to be impartial! Hence the complaint is exceedingly unlikely to receive fair handling IMO. I find it astonishing that the county council has no oversight. Unfortunately, there also doesn't seem to be a direct email address for the BCC Secretary (John Purdie) -- only a 'contact' form on their website.

Edited to add: the Fife Council document also says that the community council should, "_check that the complaint is competent, i.e. is *not spurious or vexatious *and is related to a matter within the remit of the community council to determine_" So, they could dismiss any representation we make because I suspect that TK will almost certainly deem them to be 'vexatious'. You really couldn't make this up!


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Here's what the document Fife Council sent me says about complaints:
> 
> _A complaint can be made in writing or by email to the Chairperson, Secretary or Treasurer. If the complaint is about an office-bearer, they should not handle the complaint and another member of the community council should be identified to handle the complaint._
> 
> Now two of the four office-bearers are the person the complaint is about and his wife and I suspect that (as this is a _community_ organisation) the other two are unlikely to be impartial! Hence the complaint is exceedingly unlikely to receive fair handling IMO. I find it astonishing that the county council has no oversight. Unfortunately, there also doesn't seem to be a direct email address for the BCC Secretary (John Purdie) -- only a 'contact' form on their website.


Geoff you will have to go to the ombudsman now. I suspected this would be the case. I sadly reckon that we are going to have obstacles placed against us, leading to nothing being done. What’s actually required is for the local community within Benarty taking direct action. But sadly as linkhouse stated I doubt if enough within Benarty are interested enough. But I will go further with this none the less.
If someone with knowledge of Facebook could start an alternative forum for Benarty calling it say alternative Benarty matters calling him out, that may be worth considering.


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## caledonia (Nov 1, 2021)

Maybe an email to Fife Tourist board informing them of Tams comments would be an idea. Or small Business trust as it’s these people who rely on tourists.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

caledonia said:


> Maybe an email to Fife Tourist board informing them of Tams comments would be an idea. Or small Business trust as it’s these people who rely on tourists.


Unfortunately, the closest that I could find for a small business trust for the Benarty area is "Benarty Community Forum" that @mikejay linked in post #66. Included on their board of directors is one Tom Kinnaird! Fife Tourist Board might be a better option...


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Unfortunately, the closest that I could find for a small business trust for the Benarty area is "Benarty Community Forum" that @mikejay linked in post #66. Included on their board of directors is one Tom Kinnaird! Fife Tourist Board might be a better option...


Geoff to make a complaint you have to follow procedures laid down by Fife council. I take your point about Fife tourist board but they would probably have to complain to TK about TK. But as they say nothing ventured nothing gained. But questions Fife’s process seems all that’s left.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

The community council does not appear to have a formal complaints procedure set out on its website. FWIW I think the SPOS will expect a complainant to have approached the council asking how to make a complaint, setting out the process to be followed.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Val54 said:


> The community council does not appear to have a formal complaints procedure set out on its website. FWIW I think the SPOS will expect a complainant to have approached the council asking how to make a complaint, setting out the process to be followed.


Before you can approach the SPOS you must first complain to the council. But there’s a possible problem here in that that may mean the community council and not the regional council. So we may first have to make a complaint to Benarty before the ombudsman will look into it. I am trying to find out exactly were we stand here.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Before you can approach the SPOS you must first complain to the council. But there’s a possible problem here in that that may mean the community council and not the regional council. So we may first have to make a complaint to Benarty before the ombudsman will look into it. I am trying to find out exactly were we stand here.


It will be the community council, the SPOS will expect them to have had the opportunity to respond to the complaint, the regional council have not played any part in this as far as I can tell.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Geoff to make a complaint you have to follow procedures laid down by Fife council. I take your point about Fife tourist board but they would probably have to complain to TK about TK. But as they say nothing ventured nothing gained. But questions Fife’s process seems all that’s left.


Agreed. My earlier comment was a reply to @caledonia 's suggestion to either talk to the tourist board or a small business trust.

As I commented earlier, the only way for us to contact the BCC appears to be via a form on their website -- so we don't get a read or delivery receipt. Thinking laterally, the Secretary of the BCC is the OP of the thread that gave rise to this whole issue. It might be possible to pm him via FB Messenger, but I feel uneasy doing that.


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## linkshouse (Nov 1, 2021)

Just a thought but, do we have any members within the Benarty Community Council catchment area?

EDIT
Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting a lynch mob, rather, that people nearer the problem may be better placed to garner local support.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

linkshouse said:


> Just a thought but, do we have any members within the Benarty Community Council catchment area?
> 
> EDIT
> Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting a lynch mob, rather, that people nearer the problem may be better placed to garner local support.


I wish I lived there, I would try for the Lynch mob


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

I have received confirmation, we have to exhaust all possibilities with Benarty before we can approach the ombudsman. So I will work on this tonight or tomorrow. It’s important that we follow these procedures, I know it’s not what we want, but it’s just how it is. So it’s a complaint to Benarty about the chairperson, and his wife will probably respond being independent, unbelievable.


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## mikejay (Nov 1, 2021)

They have an email address you don't need to use the contact form click the envelope at the bottom right of page next to the facebook button. Also in there complaints section the same email address  is listed.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Received further reply from Fife Council

hank you for your email.

It would be inappropriate and risk further of both parties' time to discuss the matter with this department. We unfortunately have no answers to the points you are likely to make, a member of staff from community.councils@fife.gov.uk could possibly discuss the matters further with you. 

We have attached a link to the document that describes the process, and this makes reference to conflict of interest and that members from other Community Councils can consider the matter.

https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf

SCHEME FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMUNITY COUNCILS IN FIFE
3 The Scheme of Establishment for Community Councils (2021) The following is the Scheme of Establishment for Community Councils as approved for
www.fife.gov.uk





We apologise however, this department can only discuss complaints that the Council can consider and given home working arrangements we only have access to personal devices. Service, including a telephone conversation could quite likely be available from the community council email.

We would suggest that you contact the Community Council email address for further detail on how to proceed with your complaint.

We appreciate your frustration at the situation however we need to be clear that this department has no way to support you in the matter as we are entirely ignorant of the rules associated with Community Councils. The best we can offer is the email address and the link to the process and trust that you can understand our position.

Kind regards


Escalation & Resolution Team
Customer & Online Services


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> I have received confirmation, we have to exhaust all possibilities with Benarty before we can approach the ombudsman. So I will work on this tonight or tomorrow. It’s important that we follow these procedures, I know it’s not what we want, but it’s just how it is. So it’s a complaint to Benarty about the chairperson, and his wife will probably respond being independent, unbelievable.


Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.

5.2 *Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution*
5.2.1 *Process *The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.

In addition, Para 5.0 (Complaint Handling) states that the council must, "_check that the complaint is competent, i.e. is not spurious or vexatious and is related to a matter within the remit of the community council to determine_" and dismiss the complaint if it considers it not to be 'competent'. That is, the Tom Kinnaird would appear to be at liberty to deem any complaint about himself to be 'vexatious' and summarily dismiss it.

While I suspect that this is an oversight, it does call the complaint procedure itself into question and hence my next step will probably be to complain to Fife Council that the complaint procedure itself presents a dilemma that almost guarantees complaints against the Chair of a Community Council with few office bearers (e.g. the Chairperson, his wife and two of his friends) cannot receive a fair hearing.

FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.
> 
> 5.2 *Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution*
> 5.2.1 *Process *The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.
> ...


Hi Geoff, yes I had already read through this and noted this anomaly.
I have just emailed Fifes community councils as advised today by Fifes escalation and resolution team. Let’s see what happens now.

here’s what I sent.

Dear sir/madam,

I was given this email address by your escalation and resolution team.
I wish to make a complaint about Mr Tom Kinnaird, chairperson Benarty Community Council. (BCC)
On Friday I was notified that he had posted an inflammatory email on his Facebook forum Benarty matters with regards to motorhomes who used the facility at Lochore. At this point I was not aware of his position within BCC.
After reading the post I felt I had to respond, as did other Motorhome owners. He made slanderous assertions unfit for someone in public office. These comments were clearly in breech of your codes of practice for such individuals. When attempting to discuss his comments he resorted to lies, personal insults, and after two days he stopped us from posting, and removed our posts. On further research it was noted that he has a history of such behaviour towards his own constituents. I will attach comments from some of his constituents to this email. I and others have made complaints to Fife Council, but we have been advised that we must take this matter up with BCC. But I see no point in doing so. I noted from your code that if we do so this matter must be dealt with by another member of BCC. But his wife is deputy chair, and quite frankly this would be akin to complaining about Tom Kinnaird to Tom Kinnaird.

If I do have to complain to BCC  I will do so, knowing full well that it’s an exercise in futility. Akin to shouting at the moon. Surely Fife council are responsible for the actions of their public officials. Surely there should be a better method than the complainant having to in effect complain to the person he is complaining about.

All I ask is that you look at his forum on Facebook, look at what is being posted, and decide wether or not it meets page 34 regarding said codes of practice.

I look forward to hearing from you.
I can be contacted by email or on my mobile
Please find attachments below. The first being his initial post.
But much worse was to follow than the initial post.
Prior to him cutting us of I did screen shots of all his posts for your perusal if you wish me to post them at a later date I will.





Regards

William Hurley.

Sent from my iPadll


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

The complaints procedure is what it is and should not impact on the SPOS assessment. The community council have to give a response, whether it is dictated by TK is irrelevant. The important points will be ......
1.  Have they responded in accordance with the complaints procedure, if they don't, that in itself is a matter for the SPOS
2.  If they respond that the complaint is spurious, comments taken out of context, Chair personal view etc, that will be ammunition for the next stage in convincing the SPOS that they should investigate.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Val54 said:


> The complaints procedure is what it is and should not impact on the SPOS assessment. The community council have to give a response, whether it is dictated by TK is irrelevant. The important points will be ......
> 1.  Have they responded in accordance with the complaints procedure, if they don't, that in itself is a matter for the SPOS
> 2.  If they respond that the complaint is spurious, comments taken out of context, Chair personal view etc, that will be ammunition for the next stage in convincing the SPOS that they should investigate.


Yes currently I am trying to avoid dealing with him for obvious reasons. But I will do so when it becomes necessary. I don’t Reckon that TK is the sharpest tool in the box, and I reckon his arrogance may be a problem for him.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 1, 2021)

Every day's a school day.   An immediate response from the Community Council.   According to the Secretary, they are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.  




So much for transparency then.    It will cost nothing to ask the Information Commissioner if this is true and I'll do that and publish the result.

The Information Commissioner's answer will not matter either way if the second part of the response is true;   that the elected Community Council is not required to maintain a register of counillors' interests.   The link in Fisherman;s post above is absorbing,  https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf and I find that Community Councillors should declare an interest in any question arising in their dfiscussions as is normal - but as the Secretary says, he is not required to keep a Register.  

I'll find out about both his assertions and publish the results.      Secretive bodies in local government?     Well, no.  According the link they are elected bodies but not part of local government.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

TBH, para 11.1 is fairly standard and was included in the constitution I help draft when I was secretary of a local "friends" group in support of a nearby park (ironically, similar to the Meedies!) Before any debate or vote was taken at committee meetings, the Chair would require anyone with a vested interest in the topic to declare it, and to withdraw before any vote on the matter was taken. Although my "friends" group wasn't required to maintain a register of interests, declared interests were recorded in the minutes.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

Sadly I think the community council's response to Tom is correct regarding FOI, FOI requests stop at Council level, e.g. Fife. Unless I've missed something, the Information Commissioner's website refers to FOI applying to the list of Local Government Authorities set up under Section 2 of the 1994 Local Government (Scotland) Act, that doesn't include community councils. Given the "flexibility" in the way the community councils can operate, it may well be worth asking the SPOS whether they will even entertainment a complaint against them.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Val54 said:


> Sadly I think the community council's response to Tom is correct regarding FOI, FOI requests stop at Council level, e.g. Fife. Unless I've missed something, the Information Commissioner's website refers to FOI applying to the list of Local Government Authorities set up under Section 2 of the 1994 Local Government (Scotland) Act, that doesn't include community councils. Given the "flexibility" in the way the community councils can operate, it may well be worth asking the SPOS whether they will even entertainment a complaint against them.


Quite frankly the more I learn here the worse it seems to get.
But within the codes of practice on page 34 as I posted earlier it does state

The Code of Conduct for Community Councillors is largely based on the Code of Conduct for Fife Council councillors and relevant public bodies as provided for in:
The Ethical Standards in Public Life etc. (Scotland) Act 2000

Now my way of reading this is community councillors are in effect de facto regional councillors with the same standards being applied to them.

Bottom line here is TK is a local political figure, and if any other politician abused people online, held bigoted views and expressed them openly, and sanitised views that they did not agree with, they would be finished. The Greeks gave us peoples politics (democracy), it seems it may not apply to Benarty community council.


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## caledonia (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.
> 
> 5.2 *Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution*
> 5.2.1 *Process *The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.
> ...


I think getting CAMPRA involved would be a good move. An organisation will have more clout than a couple of motor homers who have taken offence to some Facebook posts.


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

Fife Council do have a role in complaints against Community Councils, if you follow this link




__





						Community Councils | Fife Council
					






					www.fife.gov.uk
				



and scroll down to "The Scheme for the establishment of Community Councils (2021)", note this is very recent ..... 2021. Download the PDF file and look at Schedule 4 ..... Complaints Procedure.
Apologies if this has already been looked at.


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## trevskoda (Nov 1, 2021)

This is more entertaining than corrie, please keep going.


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## GeoffL (Nov 1, 2021)

Val54 said:


> Fife Council do have a role in complaints against Community Councils, if you follow this link
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No apologies necessary, and thanks for chipping in. FWIW, Schedule 4 is the procedure that Bill and I have been discussing.



caledonia said:


> I think getting CAMPRA involved would be a good move. An organisation will have more clout than a couple of motor homers who have taken offence to some Facebook posts.


I found a thread on the CAMpRA forum. Apparently, the aire closed at the end of last month with the excuse that this is to allow the site to recover. Anyway, here's what I wrote there:

_Unfortunately, I suspect that the aire will not reopen._
_
Over on the Wildcamping forum, I was notified that the Secretary of the Benarty Community Council (BCC) had posted one of Cameron McNeish's YouTube videos that gave a glowing review of the Lochore Meadows aire to Facebook. The Chairperson was the first to reply and the tone of this and subsequent posts by him suggest anti-motorhome bigotry and vitriolic hatred against motorhomes. The Facebook thread can be found at https://www.facebook.com/groups/benarty ... 035396661/ In that thread, it seemed very clear that the Council Chairperson wanted the aire closed and would monitor it with a view to doing exactly that.

Both I and another WC user tried to complain to Fife Council about that chairperson's online behaviour as we felt it had violated several of the tenets of the council code of conduct. However, Fife advised us that we had to complain to BCC in the first instant and sent us a copy of the document that included the complaint procedure. Basically, this obliged the chairperson to investigate complaints about himself and gave him to power to summarily dismiss any complaint he considered vexatious! The office bearers of the committee are the Chairperson, his wife, and two of his friends -- so I doubt our complaint would get a fair hearing.
_
_I'm happy to pass whatever info I have to CAMpRA if the organisation wants to take this up._


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## alcam (Nov 1, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> This is more entertaining than corrie, please keep going.


It may run longer


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## Val54 (Nov 1, 2021)

I'm afraid the situation is no better south of the border. The Local Government Ombudsman will not investigate complaints against parish or town councils. To quote their website .....
"A complaint about the conduct of a parish or town councillor should be made to the council itself. If you are not satisfied with the outcome, your local Monitoring Officer (usually part of whichever local council collects your council tax) may consider your complaint.

We may then be able to look at how the Monitoring Officer considered your complaint about a parish councillor. But we will not investigate the issues that prompted your complaint."


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## Biggarmac (Nov 1, 2021)

GeoffL said:


> FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.


It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation.  I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore.  The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed.  The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site.  During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available.  It is really only the EHU which is unavailable.  Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation.  His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 1, 2021)

Like Val54 I'd thought of Scottish Community Councils as being the equivalent of Parish and Town councils in England.   I think this might not be true.     I;d not looked at it from the point of view of complaints to the Ombudsman but only from the point of view of provision of information to those funding their activities - us..   Parish and Town Councils in England *are *subject to the Freedom of Information Act:






Community Councils are similarly elected and funded by the public.   I've asked the Information Commissioner and I'll pass on the reply.    I also discovered something I'd not known:




Now that could be useful though perhaps not now because, Benarty says, there's no requirement to maintain a register of councillors' interests.


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## Fisherman (Nov 1, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation.  I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore.  The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed.  The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site.  During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available.  It is really only the EHU which is unavailable.  Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation.  His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.


Spot on Mac, TK has absolutely no jurisdiction over what happens within Lochore Meadows. One of his complaints being that there was no consultation between Benarty Community Council and management a Lochore Meadows when the Motorhome stop over was created. Lochore will reopen. All he does is spout out his personal opinions about what goes on there.

I think that we are in danger here off convoluting what is actually a very simple situation. Sorry but I fail to see what the FOA has to do with what TK posted online, and his behaviour towards people who confront his views in a reasonable manner. If there is no satisfactory means of holding him to account, then this reflects poorly on how these community councils are audited and their behaviour  is monitored and enforced. I hope that something will come from this, but sadly I don't Hold out much hope.


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## GeoffL (Nov 2, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation.  I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore.  The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed.  The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site.  During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available.  It is really only the EHU which is unavailable.  Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation.  His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.


Thanks for this and also for your response over on CAMpRA. From the CAMpRA forum, it seems clear that the BCC has no jurisdiction over this aire, which is the county's responsibility and that the current closure is partly to enable development of a nearby children's play area. Also, Fife Council is allegedly very pro-motorhome and so, hopefully, the aire is safe. Pragmatically, all I wanted to achieve was to save the aire from permanent closure and, since continuing with my complaint would at best be neutral from that perspective, I'm not going to pursue that further.


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2021)

Just to briefly summarise what’s happened to date.

First and foremost Tom Kinnaird has no say whatsoever what Fife council do or don’t do within Lochore Meadows. Lochore Meadows comes under the control of Fife Regional Council who are probably the most patient pro Motorhome region in Scotland. So as Mac stated Lochore Meadows will be reopening on April 1 2022 once the works are finished. I hope also that in future years that the facility will be open all year round.

Yesterday I made a complaint about Tom Kinnaird to Fife Council. They replied that I would be better emailing a complaint to Fife Community Councils who should be able to advise me of options, or they may be able to look into the complaint themselves. I emailed them with my complaint yesterday and posted my complaint on here. I now await a response from Fife Community Councils.

I won’t post on this matter until I have received my reply.


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2021)

Well I have just received this reply from Fife Community councils.
It appears that I have to make my complaint to Benarty Community Council.
I am only prepared to do this if after exhausting all avenues I will have recourse to take my complaint further to the ombudsman.
I will reply now to Fife Community Councils to clarify this point.
I will keep you informed regarding their reply.

Dear Mr Hurley



I acknowledge receipt of your email re a complaint about Mr Tom Kinnaird, Chairperson, Benarty Community Council.



Community Councils are voluntary organisations made up of members elected by their community and Fife Council provide Community Councils and Community Council members with advice and guidance on the running of their Community Council. Community Council members are NOT elected members of Fife Council. However, as you are aware, there is a Code of Conduct for Community Council members.



You are correct in your assertion that any complaints about a Community Council, as a whole or about the individual conduct of one of its members, should be raised direct with the Community Council in question. Since the complaint relates to a particular member/office bearer, the complaint would require to be dealt with by another office bearer, not related to the office bearer about whom a complaint is made.



If you consider that the Code of Conduct for Community Councillors has been breached, you can raise a complaint with the Community Council and I would refer you to information on the Council’s website in relation to the handling of complaints made about Community Councils/individual members and the process of dealing with these – See Schedule 4 of the Scheme of Establishment refers - https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf.



Kind regards



Community Council Liaison Officer


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2021)

https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0029/183386/Scheme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf
		

From the link above  I found this on page 44.
6.0 Appeal
There is no right of appeal against a frontline resolution response or an Investigating Panel’s decision.

Therefore sadly I see no point in taking this matter any further.
I thought we lived in a country were elected officials could be held accountable for their behaviour, but it seems that these officials have carte Blanche to say what they like, lie, behave like bigots, then can only be investigated by their own community council.


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## Val54 (Nov 2, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0029/183386/Scheme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf
> 
> 
> From the link above  I found this on page 44.
> ...


Sadly I think you are correct. Even if the complaint was escalated to involve a complaints panel made up of councillors from a different community council, how likely is it that they will support the complainant or even be interested. The SPOS would only get involved if the complaint process hasn't been followed, they wouldn't look at the actual issue.
It has been an eye opener as to how immune these councils are from scrutiny, playing devil's advocate, the bottom line answer is the ballot box, but how many community council seats are actually contested .


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## caledonia (Nov 2, 2021)

Just need to resort to plan B. Send the boys round to sort him out. . Maybe Annie could call in on her way south and set the dogs on him.
He will get his comeuppance one day. I’m a firm believer in good thing happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people.


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## Weefifer (Nov 2, 2021)

Hi, I’m local, do have an expensive motorhome that I’ve worked hard for and always use local pubs, shops - food and gifts, everywhere I go but this would put a lot of people of coming to a lovely place that is open to the public.  I read his rants on Facebook, pretty awful and one sided, using what’s happening elsewhere as his argument but couldn’t find anything about this local issue that fisherman mentioned below - he posted on another post re video of lochore meadows. Wonder why? Think I will be giving it a wide berth and spend my money elsewhere.



Fisherman said:


> They have had issues with their toilet waste due to misuse by locals who put things down the hole blocking it. They have now hopefully rectified this issue, and the toilet waste is available.


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2021)

Weefifer said:


> Hi, I’m local, do have an expensive motorhome that I’ve worked hard for and always use local pubs, shops - food and gifts, everywhere I go but this would put a lot of people of coming to a lovely place that is open to the public.  I read his rants on Facebook, pretty awful and one sided, using what’s happening elsewhere as his argument but couldn’t find anything about this local issue that fisherman mentioned below - he posted on another post re video of lochore meadows. Wonder why? Think I will be giving it a wide berth and spend my money elsewhere.


I wish I was local, because he would know who I was.
This whole experience has been frustrating for myself.
The fact that this individual is still free to make his bigoted narrow minded comments whilst holding office is utterly diabolical.
But sadly that’s exactly were we are here.
My comment about the elsan being blocked came from information passed to me on my last visit. I hope you don’t think I was having a go at the locals, who have always made us feel welcome. But at night I have heard youngsters messing about in that area, and it’s possibly they who put things down the elsan point.
But nothing that he says or does will stop me from going back to Lochore.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 2, 2021)

trevskoda said:


> This is more entertaining than corrie, please keep going.


 
It's been an eye opener for me too (Val54).   Scottish Community Councils seem to be immune to any scrutiny.   The FoI does not cover them.  What this means is that any Community Councillor is immune to any investigation.   A simple _no comment_ will do as an answer to any query.  We have no right to know what they do or how they spend our money unless they wish to tell us.   But we can't compel it to give us information.

I find it hard to get my head round it.  They're elected and publicly funded – and that's it.   Ripe for infiltration by anybody I reckon though at least Councillors do have to be local.   Get enough local folk and take over our own Community Council?

What fun.


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## alcam (Nov 2, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> It's been an eye opener for me too (Val54).   Scottish Community Councils seem to be immune to any scrutiny.   The FoI does not cover them.  What this means is that any Community Councillor is immune to any investigation.   A simple _no comment_ will do as an answer to any query.  We have no right to know what they do or how they spend our money unless they wish to tell us.   But we can't compel it to give us information.
> 
> I find it hard to get my head round it.  They're elected and publicly funded – and that's it.   Ripe for infiltration by anybody I reckon though at least Councillors do have to be local.   Get enough local folk and take over our own Community Council?
> 
> ...


Tbh they are unaccountable but really have heehaw power anyway . Apparently definitely not in regards to the aire
The guy is a tosser , think he has been told that already . Needs to be ignored . Pretty sure he enjoys the attention 
Hope nobody steals his transit


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## Fisherman (Nov 2, 2021)

alcam said:


> Tbh they are unaccountable but really have heehaw power anyway . Apparently definitely not in regards to the aire
> The guy is a tosser , think he has been told that already . Needs to be ignored . Pretty sure he enjoys the attention
> Hope nobody steals his transit


Alcam, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and with hindsight I agree with you.
I was asked to respond to his sad post, and although I don’t regret that, I now wish I had drawn a line earlier and walked away. Also I did not know he was a councillor until Saturday night. I have spoken to Ian the park manager a couple of times, and he’s a decent bloke. I also felt he deserved our support from the garbage this loudmouth bigot was spewing out.
Anyway I learnt a few things, lessons taken in. I always think it’s important to learn from your mistakes, and I have made plenty in my time.


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## Val54 (Nov 2, 2021)

maureenandtom said:


> It's been an eye opener for me too (Val54).   Scottish Community Councils seem to be immune to any scrutiny.   The FoI does not cover them.  What this means is that any Community Councillor is immune to any investigation.   A simple _no comment_ will do as an answer to any query.  We have no right to know what they do or how they spend our money unless they wish to tell us.   But we can't compel it to give us information.
> 
> I find it hard to get my head round it.  They're elected and publicly funded – and that's it.   Ripe for infiltration by anybody I reckon though at least Councillors do have to be local.   Get enough local folk and take over our own Community Council?
> 
> ...


It is quite bizarre Tom, the only significant difference between community councils and the situation south of the border is that community councils cannot raise a precept, they are totally reliant on bidding for funding from the local council and other sources. So at least they have to persuade a third party of the benefits of their proposals when spending our money.  Whoever drafted the code of conduct for community councils and exempted them from FOISA clearly had little experience of the viper's nest that is "politics" at a local level.


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## alcam (Nov 2, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> Alcam, hindsight is a wonderful thing, and with hindsight I agree with you.
> I was asked to respond to his sad post, and although I don’t regret that, I now wish I had drawn a line earlier and walked away. Also I did not know he was a councillor until Saturday night. I have spoken to Ian the park manager a couple of times, and he’s a decent bloke. I also felt he deserved our support from the garbage this loudmouth bigot was spewing out.
> Anyway I learnt a few things, lessons taken in. I always think it’s important to learn from your mistakes, and I have made plenty in my time.


You've told him what you think of him and rightly so .
His behaviour looks even more bizarre when it turns out he has no power over the Aires' policies .
Maybe he doesn't know that ?
Anyway he is an erse


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## Fisherman (Nov 5, 2021)

Wonder if he knows Tom Kinnaird 

Maldon District Council meeting disrupted and police called https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-59174940


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