# My new exhaust gives more power and MPG



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

I needed ( possibly wanted rather than needed) a new exhaust for my van. I realised that the off the shelf exhausts were poor quality and as my van is a motorhome the standard ones did not fit. The brackets were in the wrong places etc. I have had a number of custom stainless steel systems on cars but all they seemed to do was sound good, they didnt improve performance or MPG. I heared about a company called Vortex in Grays Essex and noticed that they had been in business a long time and offered a patented vortex system which promised to improve power and MPG. As a sceptical northerner I thought extra power and MPG were myth, we have all seen the so called magical MPG improvers sold on Ebay and at shows and snake oil comes to mind. The vortex company have a great website and supply systems for bikes, cars, busses, taxis, trucks and ships. I couldn't find any bad feedback on the web and after loads of research and putting it off I booked my van in and had the system fitted yesterday.

I thought I would let you know all the differences I noticed while driving home.

The system they fitted was designed to be very quiet has 1 vortex and 3 straight through silencers. They know exactly how many and what size silencers to fit to give you the sound level that you require. I wanted mine very quiet. They don't hang low down like the original one so wont hit bumps in the road like my old one did

My van is a 2.8jtd pulling 4.5 tons on a TAG axle luton motorhome body (brick on wheels).

On pulling away my van was quieter, smoother and had more throttle response. Right through the gears and rev range it was smoother and quieter, I could hear a slight extra rumble when under harder acceleration where before this would have been a louder courser roar that would drown out my radio and make talking on my Bluetooth hands free impossible. I can now use my phone on hand free at all speeds, this was not possible before. I used to have to louder and lower my radio on the motorway with speed which I now don’t need to do. On hills I have noticed a great improvement and once past the war zone of the M25 I put the van in 5th gear and it stayed there for around 200miles until I left the motorway near Leeds, this was not possible before. Overtaking slower trucks on hills used to be a gamble as sometimes they had more power than me and speeded up causing me to have to pull in behind them. On my trip home this did not happen and bearing in mind I never left 5th gear this is even more surprising.

My van feels like a newer vehicle, quieter smoother and less stressful to drive. It’s possibly safer to drive as I don’t have to keep messing with my radio or changing gears.

On my trip out I used 58.37ltrs of diesel and the trip was clear roads with very little wind. On my return trip I used 51.63litres but the trip was 2 miles longer and the weather was windy pretty much all the way, I also got stuck for a bit in traffic and the van was filled before they did the emissions test so some fuel will have been used for the tests and during the exhaust fitting.


No negatives at all a great system and great people to deal with. Both knowledgeable and friendly.

Their vortex system prices start at £675+ vat but I bought a full manifold back system with 3 silencers and a vortex.
I have no connection with this firm financially but am so happy with the system they fitted I wanted to give other members my feedback after using them.


----------



## Teutone (Apr 3, 2013)

I am sorry but your posting still reads like a sales plug to me.

These claims of "up to" 35% on a modern vehicle are just no achievable and a company which advertises like this is not very believable to me.
Vortex exhaust have been around a long time and here and then on all different forums I have been a member there is always somebody who has bought one with impressive gains etc.

If you want more power from a Turbo powered van/car, you must change the engine mapping. 99 out of 100 a change of hardware (i.e. exhaust or "free flowing airfilter") WITHOUT a change of the software will only yield small results if anything (considering there isn't a fundamental flaw or restriction in the OEM design)

I am sure who have good intends, but from ONE drive you can hardly conlude. I am in the petrol burning game for a long time and one thing I learned is "if it walks like a duck....."

Don't mean any harm to you but only HARD evidence would be sufficient for me.

-- take Van on rolling road with old exhaust
-- SAME day, SAME dyno, NOT messing with the setting of the dyone measure again with Vortex exhaust.
-- Have a look at the graphs and be surprised.

-- attach pressure measuring device to old exhaust. Measure
-- attach pressure measuring device to new exhaust

-- yes turbo charged vehicles do no like back pressure, opening up an exhaust on a turbo engine can help to produce more power.

PS I am sure from the craftsman side of things, they make a good exhaust.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

I am definitely not connected to vortex. In fact I have a business selling motorhome awning panels and other accessories and attend the shows. you can find my website at Parrotsol Home Page you will also see that I am active on many other forums using the same user name.

My motorhome is too large and heavy for rolling roads I have seen. I am limited in where I can get an MOT due to size. Anyhow it is actual driving in the real world that interests me and I have posted how the vans performance has changed. 

They did a smoke test before and after the test and the exhaust reduced these figures, I have the print out to prove it if you require evidence.

I can see how my posting may look but as I am involved in retail sales I suppose it may show when I write. It may also be the fact that I could not believe how this system has changed my van and wanted to let everyone know how good I think it is. 

If you want awning blocker panels or tiedown straps then I'm your man


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Teutone said:


> If you want more power from a Turbo powered van/car, you must change the engine mapping. 99 out of 100 a change of hardware (i.e. exhaust or "free flowing airfilter") WITHOUT a change of the software will only yield small results if anything (considering there isn't a fundamental flaw or restriction in the OEM design)
> 
> I am sure who have good intends, but from ONE drive you can hardly conlude.



You are quite right about one drive not showing all about economy etc, however one drive has proven the van drives differently.
Vortex told me to expect 8 to 10% improvement on economy. At my calculations which are based on fuel used on the trip home to Leeds vs the trip out to Essex I used 11.5% less diesel with the system fitted. I know that the drive was not exactly the same but usually I get similar economy each way on this run.

I did not want to mess with a remap as I think that the engine, turbo, clutch can be damaged by doing it and I wouldn't take the risk.

If you have questions why not phone them up, they really impressed me. And that doesn't happen very often.


----------



## Tony Lee (Apr 3, 2013)

These claims of improved power and economy are fairly easy to substantiate but of course it needs the owner to do some careful testing BEFORE making the changes and that never happens - so all that is left is the confirmation bias effect - a placebo-type reaction - where someone has spent a lot of money on the expectation that he will receive a benefit for it so it is no surprise to hear that a benefit is indeed perceived. Even if the results are genuinely positive, it can't be proven so the end result is scepticism - mostly justified - from others,

In Australia the peak motoring body invited suppliers of a particular type of fuel saving device to submit their wares for scientific testing. Only one supplier took up the challenge and the results were that the device made no difference at all. Results were published and it is still available on the web but years later all these businesses are still going, still making - and presumably selling - devices that are proven not to work.  NRMA Warning On Fuel Saving Device | 2008 Press Releases | NRMA Media Room | NRMA Motoring & Services

At least in this case the OP does have something for his money - a new exhaust system that fits better and is quieter - so regardless of the other results, he does have something for his money.


----------



## David & Ann (Apr 3, 2013)

I have just spoken with my local garage which deals with Vortex exhausts. He said it either imroves BHP or Fuel economy. It is stainless steel and also does them in mild steel. stainless steel price is approx: £650 + VAT. He said there are systems for fuel economy and systems for BHP (he sounded hestitant on BHP) Also the engine will be quieter when driving. He needed the van in for the whole day as they make the Exhaust system from scratch in their workshop.  As Tony Lee says; you get something for your money Question is: Is it worth investing the £800. Your opinions please.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

I could not manage the same trip without changing gear down to 4th on hills before the system was fitted I now can do it easily.

I have had my van for quite a time and have done the A1 M11 route a number of times and use cruise control whenever possible which means my speed is pretty regulated.

Vortex promised an improvement in economy and I expected around 5% but was amazed by 11.5% that I got.

I will keep the forum up to date on future figures. There are a number of long runs that I do every few months that I can compare.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

David & Ann said:


> I have just spoken with my local garage which deals with Vortex exhausts. He said it either imroves BHP or Fuel economy. It is stainless steel and also does them in mild steel. stainless steel price is approx: £650 + VAT. He said there are systems for fuel economy and systems for BHP (he sounded hestitant on BHP) Also the engine will be quieter when driving. He needed the van in for the whole day as they make the Exhaust system from scratch in their workshop. Question is: Is it worth investing. Your opinions please.



In my opinion its improved my van so much that I am very happy with my investment. I drove 220 miles to the Vortex HQ and arrived the day before sleeping in my van. So it may be worth you doing the same.

I think your local guy may not fully know or understand the system. Why not phone Vortex and ask for Natalie as she dealt with me and explained things well. She won't push you into buying  but will answer any questions you have.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> I doubt it. Stainless Steel exhausts are inherently noisier and are more worthwhile for petrol engined vehicles only because of their longevity. Diesel vehicles are not anything like as hard on exhausts so I think you would have to be keeping your van a very long time to see any financial gain, as for performance gains be it power or economy, well, any little gained would be virtually unnoticeable in such a large heavy vehicle, better changing driving style or getting a remap on your engine management system.
> 
> Remaps on modern turbo engines really can make a huge difference and most light commercial diesel vans engines are detuned car variants.



You are so wrong. motorhomes are regularly left parked for prolonged periods allowing exhausts to sit and rot with wet acidic deposits. My exhaust was rotten at less than 20000 miles I can put photos up if required.

My last motorhome had the same diesel engine as my Jag but many of the engine parts were different. I know this from experience where owners on the Jag forum have bought transit parts to try to save money but found that they were not as well built for the transit. For example the cam pulleys.

If you look on other forums you will read of people who have remapped Ducato from 126hp to 150bhp and have suffered clutch slip. Bare in mind there is a 155bhp version of my van but it was not available in rhd. The turbo is larger. Why would Fiat or Iveco fit a bigger turbo unnecessarily when a remap would have done the job.

These are the reasons I would not remapped my van.


----------



## sparrks (Apr 3, 2013)

jezport said:


> You are so wrong. motorhomes are regularly left parked for prolonged periods allowing exhausts to sit and rot with wet acidic deposits. My exhaust was rotten at less than 20000 miles I can put photos up if required.
> 
> My last motorhome had the same diesel engine as my Jag but many of the engine parts were different. I know this from experience where owners on the Jag forum have bought transit parts to try to save money but found that they were not as well built for the transit. For example the cam pulleys.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't want anymore power going though my rubber band flywheel, the bands broke on my first one, have no faith in the replacement - that's 120bhp and 300torques


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> So they can remap the bigger turboed engines even more. My car has a BMW diesel engine and the difference between the 115 bhp and the 130 bhp is a mild remap, these can be taken safely to 160 bhp with no hardware changes, BMW take the same engine to 200+ bhp now with great reliability.
> 
> 
> Engines are not tuned to the needs in different countries and the manufacturer has to take the poorest quality of fuels into consideration. Ours is good and the engines can be retuned to take advantage of that.
> ...



Not knowing much about BMWs I can only presume they are over engineered to allow thrashing etc. They are sold for. considerably more than a fiat/ford chassis cab so better parts are fitted.

It is a common issue for the exhausts on fiat/ citroen/ Iveco exhausts to fail on motorhomes and the parts are impossible to get for vehicles on alko chassis in rhd.


----------



## mark61 (Apr 3, 2013)

Theres a fair difference between re mapping a car and a van.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

mark61 said:


> Theres a fair difference between re mapping a car and a van.



The thing about remap is you don't really know what you are getting from most companies. Lots of companies seem to come and go. I decided that the exhaust was the way to go. No extra stress on engine,turbo or clutch etc.


----------



## Tony Lee (Apr 3, 2013)

Manufacturers claim


> offered a patented vortex system which promised to improve power and MPG.



Local mechanic's take


> He said it either improves BHP or Fuel economy.



Spot the difference.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Tony Lee said:


> Manufacturers claim
> 
> 
> Local mechanic's take
> ...




I am happy that my system does both


----------



## sparrks (Apr 3, 2013)

portiapug said:


> For instance, I have been trawling the tinternet, looking at battery monitors. I saw a very expensive one, then I saw an identical one with a different name and a huge saving on price. The cheap one was being sold by a reputable company (not direct from China or through ebay). The expensive one was being offered by a ships chandlers and aimed at yachties.



Can I ask what monitor you were looking at? It's just that while looking for simliar products and Sterling B2B the yacht chandlers were the cheapest outlets.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

portiapug said:


> Your original exhaust WAS a standard Ducato exhaust, common on the Continent but they are not stocked by many companies in the UK. Granted, they are expensive here (like everything else). A number of motorhomers with old vans have sourced exhausts through ebay (from Poland). You could have got one there at a good price instead of paying out lots of money. Everyone seems happy with their quality.
> 
> If the Vortex claims of improvement to noise and MPG are correct then you will eventually get some of your money back. I am not for or against these claims, old age has just made me more cynical. For instance, I have been trawling the tinternet, looking at battery monitors. I saw a very expensive one, then I saw an identical one with a different name and a huge saving on price. The cheap one was being sold by a reputable company (not direct from China or through ebay). The expensive one was being offered by a ships chandlers and aimed at yachties.




The ebay ones don't have the correct fittings in the right place so even if the quality is good you need to chop them and weld them. The standard fiat one is bad quality so I would not want a cheap copy. I wanted the best system to let my engine run cleaner better and smoother. The standard exhaust was also prone to hitting bumps as the middle box was massive and protruded bellow the chassis. I wanted better and am happy with my system.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> 1.9 Fiat is in Vauxhalls,Saabs, Fiats, Alfas and probs more, same engine as the van,these are tuned close to 200 bhp nowadays. The 5 cylinder 2.4 version is taken as far as 295 bhp for marine applications !!!!
> 
> 2.2 and 2.7 Merc is found in Sprinters and many saloons and 4x4s
> 
> ...



As said earlier. Basic engines may be the same but different turbos, clutches, transmissions, cams, injectors etc. Not just a remap to turn a 140bhp car or van engine into a 295bhp  marine engine.

I posted about my experience with an exhaust system that replaced a rotten system that was living on borrowed time. I was impressed with due to it reducing noise, making my van smoother and more powerful which also has improved my ground clearance. I did not want a remap I know all about remapping and remapping could not have met my needs.


----------



## maingate (Apr 3, 2013)

jezport said:


> Bare in mind there is a 155bhp version of my van but it was not available in rhd. The turbo is larger. Why would Fiat or Iveco fit a bigger turbo unnecessarily when a remap would have done the job.
> 
> These are the reasons I would not remapped my van.



The larger turbo fitted to LHD was unable to fit the RHD configuration due to lack of space.

As it happens, there have been plenty of owners who have driven both. They said the LHD (bigger turbo) had no more noticeable power than the smaller turbo and used more fuel. 

I suspect that with a remap, the bigger turbo could have been a much better engine.

This also puts into doubt that remapping automatically means a slipping clutch. The 127 BHP version (small turbo) is often boosted to a lower figure than you quote. Although I have a niggle at the back of my mind that says the bigger turbo version was less than 155 BHP ? 

I believe that slipping clutches occur because too many owners slip the clutch and do not know how to match the revs when changing up and down the box. I read some time ago that due to the design of the Ducato clutch, you should never keep the clutch pedal depressed for long or allow it to slip. I forget the exact reason now.


----------



## jezport (Apr 3, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Well, pure and simple I'd need to see the dynamometer readings to believe an exhaust would make any *noticeable* difference to the performance relatively crude diesel engine lugging a heavy van shaped like a brick around.
> 
> I don't doubt it is a well made product made from top meterials, I just doubt the financial gains and the performance gains that are quoted.



I read some leaflets with customer satisfaction quotes and others quoted before and after dyno figures. Like you I was sceptical even then but after driving home over 200 miles I was well impressed with the difference. 

To be entirely honest I still don't believe how different my van is afterwards. I think I will have to convince my wife we need to go to Burlington wo I can rest litvin Growing hill. Usually a 2nd gear climb. Possibly still will be but it would be interesting to find out.


----------



## Teutone (Apr 3, 2013)

jezport said:


> I read some leaflets with customer satisfaction quotes and others quoted before and after dyno figures. Like you I was sceptical even then but after driving home over 200 miles I was well impressed with the difference.
> 
> To be entirely honest I still don't believe how different my van is afterwards. I think I will have to convince my wife we need to go to Burlington wo I can rest litvin Growing hill. Usually a 2nd gear climb. Possibly still will be but it would be interesting to find out.



Turbos don't like to be choked by exhausts. I can imagine that a more free flowing exhaust can really make a difference in how an engine runs and a few few ponies may be a result of this (if the ECU adaption parameters have a bit give programmed in the software).

So by fitting a system with less back pressure you may well get a better result. A little bit better result than before, maybe 2-3%.

 But that has nothing to do with the "Vacuum Exhaust" system. Excuse my ignorance but that's just b****cks. 

An exhaust with less back pressure is usually a LOUD exhaust with NO restriction (an Absorber Type Silencer) 
There is no such thing as free lunch. So if somebody tries to tell me (not meaning you but the manufacturer) that he ticks ALL the boxes, that makes me suspicious.
More power, Less fuel AND less noise......Hmmmmm. Usually there is always one downside to everything. And better emmissions thrown in as well........

Just imagine if this system would work SO much better? These guys would be stonking rich. STONKING rich. Just from the royalties of the patent.

I remember from a car forum I was a member, there was a guy who wanted the best airfilter. So he removed the complete inlet system from his car, stuck it on his work bench and connected an huge leaf blower at one end and measure what came out on the other. He used all the BIG brands of airfilters claiming much better flow than the stock filter. Guess what, the stock filter was flowing the most air!


----------



## jezport (Apr 12, 2013)

I have made a slideshow. If anyone wants to take a look please click the link below
Vortex Slideshow by jezport | Photobucket


----------



## Neckender (Apr 12, 2013)

Very nice van jezport.

John.


----------



## jezport (Apr 18, 2013)

I have given my feedback on this thread to Vortex.

They are keen to get more of their systems out to motorhomes so that more people can give reports on the their experience.

Now here's the good bit. They are going to give a large discount!!

I have been told that the first 10 people who order a system will get the discount. Vortex have given me a wad of leaflets to give out to anyone interested at the Peterborough show.

I have been instructed to only let people know the discounted price at the Peterborough show to prevent this thread becoming a price discussion.

I am not an agent for Vortex and will not earn one penny from doing this, I am impressed with the system and the company.

So please come and see me at stand 127A


----------



## Beemer (Apr 18, 2013)

I watched 'Wheeler Dealers' on TV with Mike Brewer and Edd China the other night, they were 'doing up' a AC Cobra copy, and it needed a new exhaust to get through the tough kit car test.
They had a Vortex exhaust specially made and the salesman quite clearly stated that the system would give more power and mpg.

Another thought..... I wonder if they will 'do up' an old (classic) motorhome sometime.


----------



## Marcs (Apr 18, 2013)

Any new exhaust will give mpg and bhp increases over an old knackered one.


----------



## n8rbos (Apr 18, 2013)

Beemer said:


> I watched 'Wheeler Dealers' on TV with Mike Brewer and Edd China the other night, they were 'doing up' a AC Cobra copy, and it needed a new exhaust to get through the tough kit car test.
> They had a Vortex exhaust specially made and the salesman quite clearly stated that the system would give more power and mpg.
> 
> Another thought..... I wonder if they will 'do up' an old (classic) motorhome sometime.




Lol, if them two had to make a living from these cars they'd be bankrupt in no time .


----------



## Teutone (Apr 18, 2013)

jezport said:


> I have given my feedback on this thread to Vortex.
> 
> They are keen to get more of their systems out to motorhomes so that more people can give reports on the their experience.
> 
> ...



Well, it was inevitable.....


----------



## n8rbos (Apr 18, 2013)

Is this a massive discount AND guarentee  better mpg/oomph? Seriously tho' i do know exhausts can improve power not sure abou mpg too, but has said a new system would feel better than an old leaking system, awful lot of money to find out.


----------



## jezport (Apr 18, 2013)

Phone them and ask. I don't work for them. They expected an 8 to 10% improvement on my van. I will report back after I return from Peterborough on MPG etc. I just hope that the wind dies down as my van is tall and big.


----------



## Smaug (Apr 18, 2013)

Beemer said:


> I watched 'Wheeler Dealers' on TV with Mike Brewer and Edd China the other night, they were 'doing up' a AC Cobra copy, and it needed a new exhaust to get through the tough kit car test.
> They had a Vortex exhaust specially made and the salesman quite clearly stated that the system would give more power and mpg.
> 
> Another thought..... I wonder if they will 'do up' an old (classic) motorhome sometime.



They were going to do a classic VeeDub in one episode but te prices were too high, so they bought a basic VW van & did a basic weekender conversion on it. I think they displayed & sold it at a VeeDub rally. Ed China also does road going sofa's, desks, baths & other funny stuff. Very interesting guy in my view.


----------



## Teutone (Apr 18, 2013)

Smaug said:


> They were going to do a classic VeeDub in one episode but te prices were too high, so they bought a basic VW van & did a basic weekender conversion on it. I think they displayed & sold it at a VeeDub rally. Ed China also does road going sofa's, desks, baths & other funny stuff. Very interesting guy in my view.



always makes me cringe when they do a "restauration" on wheeler dealer and China gets the rattle can out to spray some old rusty parts........


----------



## jezport (Apr 18, 2013)

Its Mike that makes me cringe  "Hold out your hand, you've just bought a... "


----------



## Beemer (Apr 18, 2013)

jezport said:


> Its Mike that makes me cringe  "Hold out your hand, you've just bought a... "



However..you do know that Edd has given it a good going over, and rectified the faults.


----------



## Smaug (Apr 18, 2013)

Beemer said:


> However..you do know that Edd has given it a good going over, and rectified the faults.



I would happily buy off them! They "make a profit" but don't count Ed's hours & workshop overheads & even Mike spends some time running round finding & buying cars & parts which should be totted up if only at 5 quid an hour (apprentice rates!!).

Maybe I should sell 'em my old Merc & buy it back when they've diddled it up a bit for me! At 32 years old it could do with a bit of diddling!


----------



## jezport (Apr 19, 2013)

We drove over to Peterborough yesterday in strong winds. The van drove the full distance of the A1 in 5th, which was surprising as the wind was strong. I usually do the return run with the low fuel warning light on before leaving the A1 so it will be very interesting to see how we go.The van was defiantly quieter than before the exhaust was fitted


----------



## jezport (Apr 19, 2013)

Mr 99g said:


> Hi jezport,
> 
> Cracking picture quality, and a great way of viewing them. Thanks for taking the time. I've  never seen a double door on a garage before . Can it be opened as one space ?
> 
> Now for the cheeky bit, as I'm sure everyone's thinking the same as me. Pictures of inside the van please. If that's your personal space, no bother. Very nice van in any event. :drive:



I took the photos on my phone. I've not used my proper camera since I got my galaxy note.

The 2 garages are seperate but they work well for us. We also have a full width front locker in the double floor so can't ever run out of storage.

We are at Peterborough show at the moment so I will take some internal photos when we have cleaned it as its a bit of a mess with 2 adults 2 kids and our parrot living in it. We don't mind showing it when it is clean.


----------



## jezport (Apr 21, 2013)

So after driving to Peterborough in strong wind and then driving home in normal weather I can report that I achieved around an extra 1.5 to 2.0 MPG than I would usually expect. I  normally see between 16 
5 and 17 MPG on this trip but this time I got 18.5mpg.
My kids could hear me more easily and the quieter engine noise made driving less stressful
 I once again managed the whole of the A1 part of the journey in 5th gear, possibly one of the reasons why the fuel economy  improved.


----------



## jezport (Apr 22, 2013)

jezport said:


> I took the photos on my phone. I've not used my proper camera since I got my galaxy note.
> 
> The 2 garages are seperate but they work well for us. We also have a full width front locker in the double floor so can't ever run out of storage.
> 
> We are at Peterborough show at the moment so I will take some internal photos when we have cleaned it as its a bit of a mess with 2 adults 2 kids and our parrot living in it. We don't mind showing it when it is clean.



Link to my van photos https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ca4rpujgrxxnx6z/SZ6WpZqWaQ


----------



## jezport (May 14, 2013)

Our next big trip is coming ip. We're off to Newbury for the southern motorhome show on Thursday.  A 400mile return trip. 
I Will add my MPG on my return. 

Is anyone here going to Newbury?


----------



## Andy75 (May 22, 2013)

I've only just seen this, but did see you (and the parrot!) at Newbury. I bought some clamps and things from who I presume was your good lady wife!

As an off-topic note about the Wheeler Dealer boys, they aren't always as good as they seem! There are a couple of horror stories about work they've done on the cars from the show that have ended up in the hands of guys from different member's clubs out there on the 'net.  I still watch the show though


----------



## jezport (May 23, 2013)

Andy75 said:


> I've only just seen this, but did see you (and the parrot!) at Newbury. I bought some clamps and things from who I presume was your good lady wife!
> 
> As an off-topic note about the Wheeler Dealer boys, they aren't always as good as they seem! There are a couple of horror stories about work they've done on the cars from the show that have ended up in the hands of guys from different member's clubs out there on the 'net.  I still watch the show though




Yes that was us. So now you've seen us you can confirm that I am not involved in selling vortex systems, as one of the earlier spam posters insinuated. Thanks for buying from me.

On this trip my MPG was 1.5mpg better than previous similar trips.


----------



## Marcs (May 24, 2013)

Marcs said:


> Any new exhaust will give mpg and bhp increases over an old knackered one.


----------



## jezport (Jun 2, 2013)

Marcs said:


>


I've never found it true in the past. In fact sometimes the opposite. Quite often a performance exhaust van sacrifice economy for power.

I am still seeing improved MPG and am finding that I can keep 5th gear on hillls where previously I had to use 4th.


----------



## jezport (Jun 5, 2013)

Last weekend I went to a cub scout camp near Bromsgrove.
I travelled in convoy with a 2.8jtd Citroen 3.5ton Curtain sider with an aerodynamic spoiler fitted above the cab.

So we both had the same engine, However my van was pulling 4.5ton and has an extra axle and a less aerodynamic and larger body.

We both drove the same speed and took it in turns leading

The van used £95.00 of diesel over 288 miles averaging just over 19MPG
The motorhome used £86.00 of diesel over  288miles averaging just over 21MPG


----------



## jezport (Sep 29, 2013)

I managed over 22mpg on my last tank which was to Lincoln and also to Newark. I'm still well impressed with the system.


----------



## Smaug (Sep 29, 2013)

I don't think anyone cares Jez.


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

I had posted this information as I thought members would be interested in knowing how this type of system performs in a real environment, not how the manufacturer describes the product when selling it. I posted it here, on Motorhome Fun and Motorhome Facts. It is only here that I have received such unfriendly replies. I will not be adding any further information to this post and have had Vortex remove their link to this thread from their website.


----------



## Deleted member 13867 (Sep 30, 2013)

jezport said:


> I had posted this information as I thought members would be interested in knowing how this type of system performs in a real environment, not how the manufacturer describes the product when selling it. I posted it here, on Motorhome Fun and Motorhome Facts. It is only here that I have received such unfriendly replies. I will not be adding any further information to this post and have had Vortex remove their link to this thread from their website.



You have had Vortex remove this thread from their website ? Sounds like you are quite cosy with them.


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

I kept them informed on how I am doing with regular feedback. As a businessman I find it strange that people only post complaints about products and suppliers but when they buy a great product or find a great company they dont make people aware. I live 200 miles from Vortex and have no connection with them other than being a happy customer. I am happy to support an independently owned British business by putting my experience up on the Internet, carry their leaflets and let anyone look at my van when I am out and about. 

I attend lots of shows and see lots of claims for amazing product but it's the reports from owners that tell the real truth and without them you are just taking a lucky dip!


----------



## Jean Genie (Sep 30, 2013)

But why do you think we should believe you? Nobody else seems to back you up.


----------



## Deleted member 13867 (Sep 30, 2013)

jezport said:


> I kept them informed on how I am doing with regular feedback. As a businessman I find it strange that people only post complaints about products and suppliers but when they buy a great product or find a great company they dont make people aware. I live 200 miles from Vortex and have no connection with them other than being a happy customer. I am happy to support an independently owned British business by putting my experience up on the Internet, carry their leaflets and let anyone look at my van when I am out and about.
> 
> I attend lots of shows and see lots of claims for amazing product but it's the reports from owners that tell the real truth and without them you are just taking a lucky dip!



BUT you must admit you are either obsessed with your exhaust (why would you be? its an exhaust pipe not the elixir of life) judging by the amount of time and effort you have taken to keep posting. Or people could possibly perceive that you might have a different agenda I did notice you have pride and place on the vortex website review page. Whilst most would agree that its good recommending a company which supplies quality product, the more praise you keep lumping on it the more people will question your motives.


----------



## Smaug (Sep 30, 2013)

It's not as if you have been contributing much else to this site besides how wonderful your exhaust is. If I was of a cynical bent (hee, hee; which I am) I might think you were on a commission on new orders.  You've certainly put me off the product by over egging your posts.

But hey, it's only my opinion, others may be well impressed . . .


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

Jean Genie said:


> But why do you think we should believe you? Nobody else seems to back you up.



I have a system fitted they dont. LOL


----------



## Jean Genie (Sep 30, 2013)

Ahh, in that case I believe you implicitly. :wacko:


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

dr dave said:


> BUT you must admit you are either obsessed with your exhaust (why would you be? its an exhaust pipe not the elixir of life) judging by the amount of time and effort you have taken to keep posting. Or people could possibly perceive that you might have a different agenda I did notice you have pride and place on the vortex website review page. Whilst most would agree that its good recommending a company which supplies quality product, the more praise you keep lumping on it the more people will question your motives.



As I said I am impressed and see the difference in both the amount of fuel I pay for and the improved driveability.
I have recently had some other modifications carrid out on my van but I dont think Ill bother posting them as I cant be botherd answering all the accusations


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

Jean Genie said:


> Ahh, in that case I believe you implicitly. :wacko:



Looking at the content of your 11 posts since you joined recently your opinion is very important to me:lol-049:


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

Smaug said:


> It's not as if you have been contributing much else to this site besides how wonderful your exhaust is. If I was of a cynical bent (hee, hee; which I am) I might think you were on a commission on new orders.  You've certainly put me off the product by over egging your posts.
> 
> But hey, it's only my opinion, others may be well impressed . . .



I dont know who you are so how can I earn commission if you were to call them directly. I have stated facts that I have learned by having the system fitted in my van.

Its up to anyone what they buy and I am sure my review of the exhaust will be handy for *members considering replacing a system*. When I chose this system reviews on modified car forums and watching Ed China fit one on wheeler dealers helped me with my decision. At that time there were no reviews from people with motorhomes that I could find. My threads on the motorhoming forums are intended to tell people my opinion and that I am still happy with it. Please dont just take my word for it do your own research!

Over time a number of motorhomers have posted on various forums about remapping and how they are doing with the remap. At first they were all saying how great their vans drove, well now after a longer period of use they are now complaining about prematurely burned out clutches due to the extra power, If people did not contribute their experiences with products then we would not be able to see unbiased reviews on products.

You have a choice to buy or not. But if you do buy one you may be best keeping quiet about it on here :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


----------



## Jean Genie (Sep 30, 2013)

I just get my man to patch up the old exhaust with flattened SPAM cans.


----------



## mark61 (Sep 30, 2013)

Always pleased to read of experiences with products. People will always have something to say. I wouldn't worry about it. People will only take any notice of stuff thats backed up by some kind of fact or even a genuine gut feeling about a product.


----------



## maingate (Sep 30, 2013)

Hi jezport,

I have queried some aspects of your posts on this subject but I am quite happy to take what you say at face value. I know you don't like to hang about while driving which accounts for your current mpg with this new exhaust. Have you travelled any distance on motorways at lower speeds? The reason I am asking is that I average 22 mpg with a similar van (Burstner 747) and it would be much better on motorways at my usual speed of 56 to 60 mph.


----------



## jezport (Sep 30, 2013)

Hi,

I remember that you told me that you slipstreamed wagons and drove about 55mph with empty tanks, If I remember correctly. I have done a couple of recent trips at slightly lower than my usual speed. I haven't refilled the van yet but its looking good. Ive done just under 300 miles up to now and its not near the red yet. I will fill it up before we set off next trip and put the MPG on here. Bare in mind that I do travel with water onboard and bikes for the four of us. I have weighed the van a couple of times recently and we are just around 50KGs off max weight, although I have considered replating it to give an extra 500KG

BTW the speedo under reads quite a bit at motorway speeds, I use my satnav for speed indication, do you use your speedo or a satnav.


----------



## maingate (Sep 30, 2013)

I use both, depending on if I need the satnav. I know my speedo reads high but I tend to check my mph but mostly read the rev counter. I don't go much under 2,000 rpm in 5th and try to keep it around that figure as a minimum and no more than 2,200.

I travel with almost empty tanks because I can easily go over the max. weight on my front axle. It is quite rare that I do any long motorway trips but I do find a HGV with a big fat body and sit behind it. I am not sitting on his rear bumper by the way. I normally weigh in at 4,500 Kg fully loaded for trips but that will be about 90 Kg less now that I have removed the awning.


----------



## Smaug (Sep 30, 2013)

So remaps burn out clutches do they? Sounds carp to me, abuse, overloading or bad driving may burn out clutches, but increasing the power available should not. In fact, lack of power may lead to a need to slip the clutch rather more and THAT is more likely to burn out a clutch.

Have you any evidence or facts to back up this latest obscure claim? Or are you trying to imply that your special exhaust is better than a remap? :raofl:


----------



## jezport (Oct 1, 2013)

Smaug said:


> So remaps burn out clutches do they? Sounds carp to me, abuse, overloading or bad driving may burn out clutches, but increasing the power available should not. In fact, lack of power may lead to a need to slip the clutch rather more and THAT is more likely to burn out a clutch.
> 
> Have you any evidence or facts to back up this latest obscure claim? Or are you trying to imply that your special exhaust is better than a remap? :raofl:



If you would have done your own research instead of once again implying that I am a liar you would have found loads of posts on various forums covering this.  I suppose there all liars too! 

Just Google 'clutch slipping remap motorhome' or a similar phrase. 

Here's an example. 
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=ms-android-samsung&hl=en-GB&source=android-browser-type&ei=H4FKUoz3BOKR1AXC34C4BA&q=remap+clutch+wear+motorhome&oq=remap+clutch+wear+motorhome&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...21104.26955.0.28167.10.10.0.0.0.0.274.1244.4j5j1.10.0....0...1c.1.27.mobile-gws-serp..9.1.134.TIpOi21OQV0&rlz=1Y1ECZH_en___GB513


----------



## Deleted member 13867 (Oct 1, 2013)

jezport said:


> If you would have done your own research instead of once again implying that I am a liar you would have found loads of posts on various forums covering this.  I suppose there all liars too!
> 
> I don't think Smaug has ever implied you are a liar so that accusation is unfair, however you did state you were not going to perpetuate this thread but you do continue to do so. I for one wish you and your exhaust all the best however i will not be spending £1000 ish on what is a pipe to remove exhaust gasses and muffle the sound as i and i suspect most people would never re-coup even a fraction of the cost with a saving of a couple of MPG and i really have no need of a few more BHP more, if indeed this could be achieved. It could well be that this thread is doing Vortex more harm than good and the thread should be laid to rest.


----------



## Smaug (Oct 1, 2013)

jezport said:


> If you would have done your own research instead of once again implying that I am a liar you would have found loads of posts on various forums covering this.  I suppose there all liars too!
> 
> Just Google 'clutch slipping remap motorhome' or a similar phrase.
> 
> Here's an example.



I read your link & as I suspected it is all about people who abuse their vans, no wonder they eat clutches. Just use your common sense, extra power will not damage a clutch unless you choose to drive in a way the makes the clutch slip - which is what I said earlier. 

You are clearly well intentioned, but that doesn't necessarily make you right.


----------



## jezport (Oct 1, 2013)

If I had not replied to insinuations it would imply that they are correct.  I have posted facts and observations that potential buyers may find helpful in deciding either way.I didn't buy the system purely on saving fuel,  in fact I didn't totally believe what I read on the Vortex website but the reviews on modified car forums and being able to have the system custom designed to fit within the alko chassis and not hang below like the standard system helped convince me. 

My aims were to reposition the exhaust around the handbrake cable enabling the van to clear speed bumps. To have a quieter cab.  To be able to keep in 5th gear more on inclines. Have a system that would last the life of the van. And finally the fuel savings and cleaner emissions 
I am happy that I got what I wanted.


----------



## Smaug (Oct 1, 2013)

So are we, now would you like to post on other topics?


----------



## jezport (Oct 1, 2013)

Smaug said:


> I read your link & as I suspected it is all about people who abuse their vans, no wonder they eat clutches. Just use your common sense, extra power will not damage a clutch unless you choose to drive in a way the makes the clutch slip - which is what I said earlier.
> 
> You are clearly well intentioned, but that doesn't necessarily make you right.



If you read a lot of the threads you will fInd that these people are mainly older not boy racer types so I don't agree they are thrashing  the vans. In fact most the vans remapped are larger vans where thrashing them won't get you any joy. Also if you read some of the owners are having clutch slip at low mileage. 

If you are interested in this subject then you may be better starting your own thread  although there is already a lot on the web already


----------



## Andy75 (Oct 1, 2013)

A point of order, please :

Having been there and done that - increasing power WILL curtail clutch life.  Whether or not that's is what has happened with the other MH owners that the google link brought up, is a different matter.  A clutch is a wearing part, and it's life is specified at a certain transmittable torque value.  More power has ALWAYS meant a more heavy duty clutch, or increased wear in a standard clutch.  Heavier duty clutches are a bit more..digital than analogue in fact - they tend to be on/off, and can be a pain in heavy traffic  ask me how I know! :rolleyes2:

Have a look here at the different clutches available for varying power outputs in an Impreza :

Car Subaru Impreza (01-07) [GD] WRX STI 2003 2.0 Turbo | Clutch Kits | Clutch Kits & Components | Performance | Home | Demon Tweeks


----------



## Smaug (Oct 1, 2013)

Andy75 said:


> A point of order, please :
> 
> Having been there and done that - increasing power WILL curtail clutch life.  Whether or not that's is what has happened with the other MH owners that the google link brought up, is a different matter.  A clutch is a wearing part, and it's life is specified at a certain transmittable torque value.  More power has ALWAYS meant a more heavy duty clutch, or increased wear in a standard clutch.  Heavier duty clutches are a bit more..digital than analogue in fact - they tend to be on/off, and can be a pain in heavy traffic  ask me how I know! :rolleyes2:
> 
> ...



But you are talking about different orders of magnitude, rather than 5-10% potential improvement. Plus we are talking about big vans, not saloons upgraded to rally spec racers. Next you will be telling people that using Shell V-Power fuel means you have to have a clutch upgrade. Please use sensible & equivalent comparisons.


----------



## jezport (Oct 1, 2013)

Smaug said:


> But you are talking about different orders of magnitude, rather than 5-10% potential improvement. Plus we are talking about big vans, not saloons upgraded to rally spec racers. Next you will be telling people that using Shell V-Power fuel means you have to have a clutch upgrade. Please use sensible & equivalent comparisons.



Nobody has a remap for 5 to 10% improvement .  The usual remaps for the 2.8 ducato brings the BHP  up from 125 to 160. When talking about big vans,  I would think that pulling between 4 and 6 tons around on a remapped ecu even when driven carefully will cause  an early demise of the clutch.  And that is what a number of owners have said on various forums.


----------



## maingate (Oct 1, 2013)

jezport said:


> Nobody has a remap for 5 to 10% improvement .  The usual remaps for the 2.8 ducato brings the BHP  up from 125 to 160. When talking about big vans,  I would think that pulling between 4 and 6 tons around on a remapped ecu even when driven carefully will cause  an early demise of the clutch.  And that is what a number of owners have said on various forums.



That is why I prefer my Tunit box to a remap. The jumpers can be set to suit the individual. Each step up equates to roughly 5 BHP. Too much power on the 2.8 JTD can affect the Turbo. It should be remembered that the original (ie, LHD) engine was 142 BHP but a smaller Turbo had to be shoehorned into the RHD version and it was only 127 BHP. The former owner of my van towed a WW2 Jeep on a trailer and blew the original Turbo. Mine is set to give approximately 147 BHP.

I am not 100% certain but I think a beefed up Clutch plate is available for the 2.8 JTD but not for the post 2007 X2/50 vans.


----------



## Jean Genie (Oct 1, 2013)

A woman's logic perhaps?

The extra weight of a third axle via an Alco chassis on a gearbox designed for 3.5 tonnes max?

Now, that will give cause for clutch slipping far and above the tiny BHP increase likely to be obtained from ANY exhaust system.

If you want to run at heavier weights then the gearing should be lowered to reflect this.

Mercedes do it, and probably Iveco and Ford, it is why they use RWD for heavier units.


----------



## jezport (Oct 1, 2013)

Jean Genie said:


> A woman's logic perhaps?
> 
> The extra weight of a third axle via an Alco chassis on a gearbox designed for 3.5 tonnes max?
> 
> ...



The 2.8 engine in the Fiat is an Iveco engine. Iveco built up to 6.5ton chassis using it so I dont think the weight is too much for the clutch.


----------



## Jean Genie (Oct 1, 2013)

And the gearbox, diff ratios are?

Sorry, but I gave up on boy racers many years ago Jezza. You are a fool.

P.s. the 1.9 Fiat engine powers Alpha Romeo saloons and Boxer vans, do you really believe they are geared the same? Grow up sonny then come back once you have been fed on some humble pie.

Jeez, boyz an their toyz!!!


----------



## mark61 (Oct 1, 2013)

Fiat may well reduce gearing on the Ducatos with heavier GVW. Although I doubt it's as heavy duty as the Daily.


----------



## Andy75 (Oct 3, 2013)

Smaug said:


> But you are talking about different orders of magnitude, rather than 5-10% potential improvement. Plus we are talking about big vans, not saloons upgraded to rally spec racers. Next you will be telling people that using Shell V-Power fuel means you have to have a clutch upgrade. Please use sensible & equivalent comparisons.



I didn't say that - you said the an increase of power would NEVER mean a clutch would be worn out prematurely, which blatantly isn't true.  Please note that I did add the caveat that I did not know if that was what had happened with these MH's  :hammer:


----------



## Beemer (Oct 3, 2013)

Jean Genie said:


> And the gearbox, diff ratios are?
> 
> Sorry, but I gave up on boy racers many years ago Jezza. You are a fool.
> 
> ...




Seems a bit harsh Jean Genie?
I have read through Jezports posts and cannot see where he implies he is a Boy Racer... seems to me to be more interested in mpg! :dance:
I have found the subject very interesting, especially as I have a 2.8jtd Fiat m/h with a tag axle, being rated at 4.5t.  
If Jezport is bothered to post his findings on a new exhaust system and someone benefits, surely that is a good thing?
I have no intention of fitting a new exhaust at the moment, however I do have a Tunit box fitted (before I purchased the vehicle 9 months ago) and so far, (touch wood) have had no clutch problems.
There is no chance of being a boy racer in a 4.5t motorhome, with a Tunit box or fancy exhaust system fitted!!!
My motorhome is my toy.... and if I can upgrade it safely, and I can afford it... I will.


----------

