# New rules limiting gatherings to 6



## Martin gaze (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi everyone
With the new rules saying no more gatherings of more than 6 people even outside as from Monday does anyone yet know what this will mean for the international campervan show next weekend.


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

No idea. Guess will have to wait till their websites are updated with info.


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

Gatherings over 30 were never allowed anyway.

They have done loads of work to meet requirements, so I don't see the latest news making any difference.


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## runnach (Sep 9, 2020)

Is Boris not sharing his words of wisdom later today ?


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Where does this strict figure of 30 come from anyway? Is it something to do with the amount of 'surge' the health system can cope with?

Or is it a 'finger in the air, which way do we _think_ the is wind blowing?'

Surely it depends on the situation - indoors, outdoors, whether social distancing is strictly enforced etc.? If the gatherings over 30 were never allowed before this latest, @st3v3, how come the International Campervan Show was planning to go ahead (and currently still is, AFAIK).

They really are trying to shut the lid on Pandora's box, aren't they?
Not a cat in hell's chance with that one. My best guess is that the virus will run its course (good) or it will stay with us/morph into different strains (learn to live with). Nature will have her way in the end regardless of what we do. The government will also have it's way.

I suppose they're trying their best with damage limitation, but l reckon all that will happen is
a) more economic damage and
b) more (dangerously!) draconian laws and restrictions on freedom will be introduced

The unwanted rollercoaster ride still has a long, long way to go


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## wildebus (Sep 9, 2020)

The organiser has posted an update saying they will be going ahead as basically the new guideline limits don't apply to them as it (the show) is in a "controlled environment" (that is how I read the response anyway)

I have to say I don't understand his interpretation, but hope he is right and am very glad I don't have the headache of running any kind of events


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## trevskoda (Sep 9, 2020)

I think its about time folk start to use their brains and stay away from any big groups because no mater how hard we all try some numty will break the 2 mtr rule at some point,easy to forget and laps back to old ways we have been doing for years,the world has changed for now do lets live with it to get past this,keep safe folks.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Just checked my emails, and this arrived last night from Ticketsource:



The following additional information for their events has been posted by *Off Road UK*.
At the start of August we the organisers of the joint *“Adventure Overland Show” + “International Campervan Show”* spent 30+ hours compiling Covid-Secure Risk Assessments for the district and county councils/police/fire/Public Health England, the Highways Agency (plus numerous other bodies), this has seen us get the green light for the show to go ahead … so rest assured the event will be as safe as we can possibly make it. Warwickshire Police even commented how well thought out our Risk Assessments were, and concluded by wishing us “luck with the event” – a first in 20 years of running shows!!! Thank you for the kind words. It was a challenge (understatement of the year) but when you arrive, hopefully you’ll appreciate it was all worth it.

I personally attended a market recently – not just any old market mind, it’s advertised as “the biggest one-day market in the UK” – and I can tell you their Covid precautions were atrocious. Stalls were butted up to one another, I saw just one sanitiser station in the whole place, people were wandering about cheek by jowl anywhere they wanted; quite frankly it was scary! I assure you that our Covid precautions will be the complete opposite. Traders will be spaced apart, the walkways will be wider with a newly introduced one-way system around the entire venue, the campsites will be laid out in a grid system adhering to the rules and high standards of the foremost motorhome/caravan club in the UK, seminars will be held outdoors under cover, we’ll have in place 25 sanitiser stations throughout the venue, toilets/showers will be cleaned and sanitised hourly with a deep clean early mornings, the number of toilets have trebled, a team with pressurised back-packs will be sanitising pinch points throughout the weekend, the seating in the Beer Tent will implement government legislation on restaurants, the Acoustic Marquee will still be in full swing albeit with outdoor seating around the fire-pits, security has increased dramatically with SIA approved stewards (at great expense with canines no less, a first for us) monitoring social distancing during the Night Market, Beer Tent, the Airbrushed Big Rigs trucks night light display in aid of “Make a Wish” and the Acoustic Marquee, patrols in the camping areas to ensure large gatherings don’t take place, the volunteer Marshals pre-event will receive first-aid and specific Covid training, and finally we’ve commissioned one of the top medical teams in the country (up to Paramedic levels) to be in attendance from Friday set-up day to Monday breakdown; they normally cover motorsport events – in other words the very best of the best!!! Trust all this will allay your concerns, we literally couldn’t do any more to ensure the safety of visitors and of course our events team, all of which are non-paid volunteers by the way, every one of them only too willing to provide you the public with what we consider to be the best show of its type in the land. Enthusiasts one and all, there simply wouldn’t be a show without them! Most of you know who I’m referring to, they are truly amazing. A basic “Thank you” seems so inadequate, thankfully they know their efforts are very much appreciated by the traders, visitors and all involved … “THANK YOU!!!”

Tom McGuigan​


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I think its about time folk start to use their brains and stay away from any big groups because no mater how hard we all try some numty will break the 2 mtr rule at some point,easy to forget and laps back to old ways we have been doing for years,the world has changed for now do lets live with it to get past this,keep safe folks.



I've been using my brains for a long time now, Trev, and it's obvious that you have to keep on guard at all times when you are outside your own domestic situation. When you're in the most vulnerable group I can assure you that I have _never once_ 'forgotten' what it takes to keep myself safe. The chances of me catching the virus when sidestepping or avoiding (in a split second, lightning fast movement!) when a numpty gets too close is virtually nil, plus I should also be awarded an Olympic medal for speed!


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

Good man Tom


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## witzend (Sep 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I think its about time folk start to use their brains and stay away from any big groups because no mater how hard we all try some numty will break the 2 mtr rule at some point,easy to forget and laps back to old ways we have been doing for years,the world has changed for now do lets live with it to get past this,keep safe folks.


With things the way they are Why anyone would want to go to a show where there will be 100's of people from all over the country is beyond me. It's no wonder that these new laws are needed


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## campervanannie (Sep 9, 2020)

I find it really confusing as they also announced on the news that a big Horse race meet was going to go ahead in Doncaster Which will attract thousands it’s like Boris is using the North for test cases.


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> how come the International Campervan Show was planning to go ahead (and currently still is, AFAIK).



It was(is) allowed because it's being run by a business who have put SD measures in place. Same as when you go to a pub, there may be way more than 30, but the business in enforcing SD measures and keeping people in small isolated groups.


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

witzend said:


> It's no wonder that these new laws are needed



There is no connection between the new laws and organised events.

People have been ignoring the maximum 6 guidance and police haven't really been able to do anything to break up groups. It's now becoming law, so that they can.


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## runnach (Sep 9, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> I find it really confusing as they also announced on the news that a big Horse race meet was going to go ahead in Doncaster Which will attract thousands it’s like Boris is using the North for test cases.


6000 people anticipated next 4 days and the organisers seem to have got covid measures right....what worries me is how people behave in town particularly Saturday.

I think any notion people will behave social distance is far fetched having experienced a few Saturday nights in the town ledger day. It just won’t happen. 

It is a shame as a potential payday for Doncaster, but in my mind the risks outweigh the advantages


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## harrow (Sep 9, 2020)

I've been on the bus this morning, young people not wearing masks and people working in shops don't have to have a mask, just daft.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

harrow said:


> I've been on the bus this morning, young people not wearing masks and people working in shops don't have to have a mask, just daft.



Yes, there are lots of 'individual' approaches with many folk paying no heed whatsoever to any guidelines, whether they are workers or general members of the public.

If herd immunity was originally considered an option as a way of dealing with the virus, then I think that will be easily achieved over the coming months.

Like I said before, I just hope we don't see the introduction of increasingly draconian laws.

We're all skating on thin ice...


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

witzend said:


> With things the way they are Why anyone would want to go to a show where there will be 100's of people from all over the country is beyond me. It's no wonder that these new laws are needed



Unless the show is really packed, which it never has been ever, I'll be coming into contact with less people at the show than I do going about my work/daily business.


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## campervanannie (Sep 9, 2020)

Conspiracy theory and I’m not one for these but a few weeks back I got a pamphlet from Bradford NHS saying that I could go to a test centre to get tested wether I have symptoms or not so tests in Bradford were opened up to anyone, now we have a rise in cases and partial lockdown does testing more people and rise in cases not go hand in hand. So confusing


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> Conspiracy theory and I’m not one for these but a few weeks back I got a pamphlet from Bradford NHS saying that I could go to a test centre to get tested wether I have symptoms or not so tests in Bradford were opened up to anyone now we have a rise in cases and partial lockdown does testing more people and rise in cases not go hand in hand. So confusing


 No conspiracy there.


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## wildebus (Sep 9, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> Conspiracy theory and I’m not one for these but a few weeks back I got a pamphlet from Bradford NHS saying that I could go to a test centre to get tested wether I have symptoms or not so tests in Bradford were opened up to anyone, now we have a rise in cases and partial lockdown does testing more people and rise in cases not go hand in hand. So confusing


"does testing more people and rise in cases not go hand in hand."
Well yes, inevitably,  as if you test 50,000,000 people and just one tests positive, there is a rise in cases.
The key thing is the cases per capita and the trends - and if more people are getting tested and the average number of positive results per n tests carried out is reducing, then the trend is down, and it the average number is increasing .... trend is up.

Hate to mention the   again, but the "don't test and you won't have cases" logic is right from his very flawed playbook.


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

wildebus said:


> and if more people are getting tested and the average number of positive results per n tests carried out is reducing, then the trend is down, and it the average number is increasing .... trend is up.



The trouble is, before we were not testing people with no symptoms. And we were happy with the numbers.

Now we're testing them, we know about them having it, but still with no symptoms. And all of a sudden it's panic time.

I don't know what's right, but am taking comfort in the fact with all of the positive cases still no-one is dying. (I know time lag, fitter people etc., but still...)


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## wildebus (Sep 9, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> The trouble is, before we were not testing people with no symptoms. And we were happy with the numbers.
> 
> Now we're testing them, we know about them having it, but still with no symptoms. And all of a sudden it's panic time.
> 
> I don't know what's right, but am taking comfort in the fact with all of the positive cases still no-one is dying. (I know time lag, fitter people etc., but still...)


Happy with the numbers?  now this is one the problem with the way the numbers have always been reported and gave a false - and maybe comforting - number.   There are likely tens or hundreds of thousands or maybe into the millions of people who would get a positive result IF the whole population was instantly tested right now, but the numbers reported are treated as absolute numbers, not just confirmed from testing numbers.

I don't know about anyone else, but I never treated the published numbers as anything but a snapshot of numbers from testing and certainly not as an actual infection count.
And .... when you realise this, if you look at Mortality rates correctly  (based on population rather than either deaths per positive test or deaths against number of tests) it tells a quite different (and less morbid) story.


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## jeanette (Sep 9, 2020)

harrow said:


> I've been on the bus this morning, young people not wearing masks and people working in shops don't have to have a mask, just daft.


harrow we had to go to the Metro centre yesterday to pick something up and it was the same even though shops had sanitizer at the door hardly anyone used it, you have to wear a mask as soon  as you go in but a lot of them had them under their chins!!. We don’t have to wear one but we do...  in one shop it kept coming over the speaker to please wear your masks hmm they didn’t those that had them either hanging off one ear or round their chin


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Happy with the numbers?



Sorry, I meant the government is happy to allow us to be out and about with those numbers. Now they've formally discovered some more cases that were likely already there, it's lockdown time...


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## Sharon the Cat (Sep 9, 2020)

If you decide to go to a pub, supermarket, large show, restaurant whatever, surely you know the risks you are exposing yourself to.
I'm no saint. I know that I have got lax when entering our local pub with hand sanitising, but I have usually washed my hands before leaving home 50 metres away. Maybe new rules are needed as a reminder to all of us.

We all know that there are lots of idiots around, the same as we knew that if we went to France the rules might change & quarantine may apply on return. Therefore we made the decision not to go to France & avoid places full of idiots if we can. If everyone were to act like responsible grownups life would be so much easier.


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

Sharon the Cat said:


> If you decide to go to a pub, supermarket, large show, restaurant whatever, surely you know the risks you are exposing yourself to.
> I'm no saint. I know that I have got lax when entering our local pub with hand sanitising, but I have usually washed my hands before leaving home 50 metres away. Maybe new rules are needed as a reminder to all of us.
> 
> We all know that there are lots of idiots around, the same as we knew that if we went to France the rules might change & quarantine may apply on return. Therefore we made the decision not to go to France & avoid places full of idiots if we can. If everyone were to act like responsible grownups life would be so much easier.


 Still use the sanitiser in pub because I use the communal pen to sign in, which is covered in disease.    Still, if I was really bothered I'd take my own pen.
Saying that, theres only one pub round here where you still need to sign in.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

It will always be imperfect damage limitation, but we just have to do the best we can.
It's been that way right from the off, imo.

As said time and again, just keep taking all sensible precautions whenever necessary and use your nounce/common sense.

It shouldn't really need saying, and I'm sure the vast majority of members on here have been doing this right from the start anyway, so preaching to the converted.

"Move along, nothing to see here, as you were folks..." etc. etc.


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## trevskoda (Sep 9, 2020)

Those going into a pub then go to loo wash there hands and then HANDLE the door nob on way out,seems daft to me,why bother with the pub anyway,is it that bad you must have a drink,stay home and wash the van etc.
As for shops,should be a sine outside stating no mask and hand sanitizer then no entry,have two big bouncers at door to inforce this,if not fine the shops £1000 for every one in without a mask.


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## in h (Sep 9, 2020)

If you look at the regulations and use them as a way to work out what best protects you from infection, there are two clear protective factors.
The first and most powerful one is the magical presence of a contactless payment machine. Whether in a pub, in a shop or on a bus, that appears to make it safe to share breathing air with strangers.
The second one is any situation that makes money for someone, preferably someone who bankrolls the Conservative Party.
If it's free, it's dangerous.


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Those going into a pub then go to loo wash there hands and then HANDLE the door nob on way out,seems daft to me,why bother with the pub anyway,is it that bad you must have a drink,stay home and wash the van etc.
> As for shops,should be a sine outside stating no mask and hand sanitizer then no entry,have two big bouncers at door to inforce this,if not fine the shops £1000 for every one in without a mask.



Well I ain't gonna spend all evening in the loo.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

I heard the statistician David Spiegelhalter on Radio 4 again this morning.

Haven't bothered to try and find it on iPlayer to listen again, but basically he's saying no need to panic even with a 'rise in numbers'.

The main thing I'm doing is sticking to all the hygiene/safety rules as they were set out right at the beginning of this world saga and I ain't deviating from them until we're given the all clear (or a vaccine).

One thing for sure though; there is no way I am going to live like a hermit or a recluse in the meantime, and I definitely don't worry about whether the virus might get me or not. Life's too damn short as it is to waste precious energy in that way...


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

mark61 said:


> Well I ain't gonna spend all evening in the loo.



You don't go to any dodgy curry houses then?


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## st3v3 (Sep 9, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> I heard the statistician David Spiegelhalter on Radio 4 again this morning.
> 
> Haven't bothered to try and find it on iPlayer to listen again, but basically he's saying no need to panic even with a 'rise in numbers'.
> 
> ...



Agree with all of that.


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## ricc (Sep 9, 2020)

only numbers that matter are the number of hospital admissions (and their relation to free capacity in hopitals)) and the number of genuine caused by covid deaths. (per thousand population if you want to compare with other countries)

the numbers testing positive whilst symptomless is pretty meaningless unless your going to test everybody ,   and have a reliable test that is specific to covid 19..

imho a test for bits of some sort of virus that also gives false positives and negatives is worse than useless.


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## yorkslass (Sep 9, 2020)

campervanannie said:


> I find it really confusing as they also announced on the news that a big Horse race meet was going to go ahead in Doncaster Which will attract thousands it’s like Boris is using the North for test cases.


Visitors Are Being Allowed In Today, Presumably Because It was too late to stop them travelling,  but spectators have been banned from the rest of the event.


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## groyne (Sep 9, 2020)

Good old Boris, Moon shots and empty promises.

Marie talks more sense.



> The main thing I'm doing is sticking to all the hygiene/safety rules as they were set out right at the beginning of this world saga and I ain't deviating from them until we're given the all clear (or a vaccine).
> 
> One thing for sure though; there is no way I am going to live like a hermit or a recluse in the meantime, and I definitely don't worry about whether the virus might get me or not. Life's too damn short as it is to waste precious energy in that way...


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## GWAYGWAY (Sep 9, 2020)

It is to stop insurrection by groups that want to protest about the bullshit going on, protest and get fined.
they learnt the techniques from the CCP and now Australia.
welcome to the new world order.


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## trevskoda (Sep 9, 2020)

Parts of N Ireland go into lockdown tomorrow or full l down,64 pos cases of cov 19 now in schools,i knew this was coming,next unis will be closed.


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 9, 2020)

GWAYGWAY said:


> It is to stop insurrection by groups that want to protest about the bullshit going on, protest and get fined.
> they learnt the techniques from the CCP and now Australia.
> welcome to the new world order.


I don't normally subscribe to this line of thought, but, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. In the larger scheme of things


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

GWAYGWAY said:


> It is to stop insurrection by groups that want to protest about the bullshit going on, protest and get fined.
> they learnt the techniques from the CCP and now Australia.
> welcome to the new world order.



Yup, the longer it goes on, the easier it could become to believe in a conspiracy theory.

Not that I do, but I certainly believe in political powers/big business/powerful individuals using the current situation as a golden opportunity and acting fast/cunningly/illegally to move things along in a direction that will benefit them greatly...


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## trevskoda (Sep 9, 2020)

GWAYGWAY said:


> It is to stop insurrection by groups that want to protest about the bullshit going on, protest and get fined.
> they learnt the techniques from the CCP and now Australia.
> welcome to the new world order.


So folks dieing is not happning,get real


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## colinm (Sep 9, 2020)

I can see this new rule being widely ignored. I think the second wave is on it's way, the only question is how bad it will be. Hopefully the lessons of putting CV-19 infected people into nursing homes has been learnt, so it is quite possible the death tolls will not rise as high as before.


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## Deleted member 77519 (Sep 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> So folks dieing is not happing,get real


People are dying Trev, but I see things happening in my Council's departments that are definitely running off the back of this pandemic. Huge changes in a very short time. A lot for the better, but some more sinister.


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## trevskoda (Sep 9, 2020)

Yes hallmut and our gov not ready or getting a grip on things,having no ppe was the first daft thing,then buying from china,what a disgrace for us.


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## in h (Sep 9, 2020)

It's all very well suspecting a conspiracy theory, but the government doesn't give the impression that it's organised enough to run a conspiracy.


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## mickymost (Sep 9, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> So folks dieing is not happning,get real




With due respect intended I wonder If the Pension bills in most countries were getting too large,and costly. Definately China has a large older population(or did have) maybe im wrong but something is amiss for sure


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## mark61 (Sep 9, 2020)

in h said:


> It's all very well suspecting a conspiracy theory, but the government doesn't give the impression that it's organised enough to run a conspiracy.



Could be a double bluff,  

If indeed governments have much to do with it.


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## Wully (Sep 9, 2020)

No really into conspiracy theory’s and my daughter had this thing and was very ill for ten days she was tested and now over it so I’m inclined to say there is a virus and effects different age groups differently. Anyway here’s my point I’m on the road most days all over Glasgow for work purposes and have seen a dramatic change this week in the amount of ambulances on the road they are everywhere all blearing there sirens and blue lights now here’s the bit I’m noticing a lot and finding strange these ambulances have lights and sirens blaring when there’s no need with no traffic lights no obstructions wide open roads. I noticed this during the lockdown as well and that’s why I look now. When they we’re running during lockdown not another car on the rd for miles just tumble weed  but they still had sirens and lights blaring I just find this very strange are they trying to keep us on our toes and alert by doing this. Tomorrow look if you see an ambulance  dose it really need the blue lights and sirens.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

Wully said:


> No really into conspiracy theory’s and my daughter had this thing and was very ill for ten days she was tested and now over it so I’m inclined to say there is a virus and effects different age groups differently. Anyway here’s my point I’m on the road most days all over Glasgow for work purposes and have seen a dramatic change this week in the amount of ambulances on the road they are everywhere all blearing there sirens and blue lights now here’s the bit I’m noticing a lot and finding strange these ambulances have lights and sirens blaring when there’s no need with no traffic lights no obstructions wide open roads. I noticed this during the lockdown as well and that’s why I look now. When they we’re running during lockdown not another car on the rd for miles just tumble weed  but they still had sirens and lights blaring I just find this very strange are they trying to keep us on our toes and alert by doing this. Tomorrow look if you see an abundance dose it really need the blue lights and sirens.



The virus definitely exists, but you're spot on about the ambulances, Wully. It's weird and I noticed exactly the same thing here all the way through lockdown, some flying around in the wee small hours, sirens blaring on empty roads at 1, 2, 3 in the morning etc.

I also remember thinking that was odd at the time. Why would you sound sirens for covid patients and not for other critical illnesses?
And we have always been 'unhealthy heaven' round here with ambulances trundling around at all hours right throughout the year, but they hardly ever sounded their sirens after midnight or through into the early hours. You might see blue lights flashing in the dark on the main road beforehand, but no sirens going.

Strange coincidences.... Hmm... maybe the crew/drivers were just making the most of the empty roads and 'unprecedented circumstances' and just enjoying letting rip? Can't think of another rational reason why they should start behaving differently from before?

Wow! There's shivers up my spine, one has just gone past on the top road with sirens and lights blaring and I bet any money you like if I walked up the street right this minute the roads would be completely deserted round here at this time of night...


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

runnach said:


> However, although only three days in, each day I have felt I have been walking into a snake pit, and wondering when I will get bitten??
> 
> *Three days in, have worked out our current youth really do not care*.



Yup. Been like that re the virus a good while now, Terry.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

mark61 said:


> Could be a double bluff,
> 
> If indeed governments have much to do with it.



Puppets aren't exactly a new thing when it comes to 'ruling'...


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## Wully (Sep 9, 2020)

The new thing is to be announced tomorrow that pubs are to close earlier 10pm  as if that’s gonna make a difference they’ll just buy carry outs and head to each other’s houses after a few in the pub I think that will cause more of a problem with more house parties.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 9, 2020)

I think we just have to accept the fact that it's going to meander chaotically on into the future like this for some time to come.

I've said it loads of times, all we can do is be sensible and protect ourselves and those nearest to us as much as we possibly can.
No putting anything back in Pandora's box now...


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## mfw (Sep 10, 2020)

They are still not sure of the long term effects of the covid and some that have had it are still struggling to get fit again according to reports - just have to learn to live with it and be cautious in closed enviroments


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

Wully said:


> here’s my point I’m on the road most days all over Glasgow for work purposes and have seen a dramatic change this week in the amount of ambulances on the road they are everywhere all blearing there sirens and blue lights now here’s the bit I’m noticing a lot and finding strange these ambulances have lights and sirens blaring when there’s no need with no traffic lights no obstructions wide open roads. I noticed this during the lockdown as well and that’s why I look now.



Same here during the lockdown. I was out for a walk along an empty dual carriageway, came past me, turned around and came back. 3 times during the mile I walked along it. Sirens going constant into the distance around the estate ( big roads with no traffic) before appearing again.

I heard similar several times during the lockdown. 

The only thing I could come up with was they were training a driver, but still didn't explain the constant sirens.

Also, the police helicopter base is 2 miles up the road and he was up every evening at the same time (around 1730) but there was never anything going on, on the roads.

Very odd.


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## jagmanx (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> Same here during the lockdown. I was out for a walk along an empty dual carriageway, came past me, turned around and came back. 3 times during the mile I walked along it. Sirens going constant into the distance around the estate ( big roads with no traffic) before appearing again.
> 
> I heard similar several times during the lockdown.
> 
> ...


Helicopter up and about looking for anyone who might have a bit of inspiration.


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## campervanannie (Sep 10, 2020)

Well I don’t believe in conspiracy theories do you not just think the ambulances have to have the sirens going because there could always be that one car/van and if they hit them could they be liable if not sounding their sirens or could it be that our senses were heightened with a lot less traffic on the roads before lockdown we just didn’t notice just my humble opinion.


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## mark61 (Sep 10, 2020)

I don't believe conspiracy theories either, but then I don't believe half the news either, and if it comes out a politicians mouth, I'm very dubious. 

Conspiracy theories are no more a guarantee of nonsense than anything else.


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## ricc (Sep 10, 2020)

i dont really understand why australia has reacted  the way they have....melbourne has been  on total lockdown for example but the whole of ausralia has something like a total of 70 deaths blamed on covid.......and less flu deaths than normal


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## trevskoda (Sep 10, 2020)

There dropping like flys here now,we are in a lockdown again,many here just dont bother with masks,no masks in any place of work from what i see except my bank and chemist shop,all pubs are full to the neck with no meals being served,police are powerless to do anything,many of them are of work .


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

mfw said:


> They are still not sure of the long term effects of the covid and some that have had it are still struggling to get fit again according to reports - just have to learn to live with it and be cautious in closed enviroments



Very good friend of mine is seriously suffering with post-covid syndrome.

She has been since January this year and it is not pleasant at all. She's a workaholic and is totally fed up with it.
They are only just starting to get into looking at some of the physical after effects of covid.

She tells me she was recently given some sort of help line number to phone and the operator told her they have literally been dealing with thousands of calls from people who appear to be suffering long term from a whole variety of nasty after effects, the biggest one being effect on breathing ability.

I'm told it's causing potential problems with disability and PIP benefits too.
'Post-covid syndrome' is so new it's not recognised by their current systems (no surprise there though!).


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## yorkieowl (Sep 10, 2020)

I thought the idea of track and trace was if you had been in contact with a person who had tested positive then you too self isolate?   If that’s the case then why has:
1) a police friend who spent all day in a car with a colleague who tested pos, being told to carry on working until he gets symptoms or tests pos himself?
2) A doctors surgery (who test ever 2 weeks), have a receptionist who tested positive, she had mixed (they don’t use masks) with other reception staff, yet only she has to self isolate?
Call me crazy but a doctors surgery is where the most vulnerable are being seen/need to go, yet they’re being put at risk by the very people who are supposed to be there to help them.  Oh I forgot to mention - the doctors surgery have told staff to keep it all very hush hush, so before going to your doctors/dentists etc I would ask them if they have had any Covid cases on their staff, and then make a decision if you think it’s safe to be seen.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> I thought the idea of track and trace was if you had been in contact with a person who had tested positive then you too self isolate?   If that’s the case then why has:
> 1) a police friend who spent all day in a car with a colleague who tested pos, being told to carry on working until he gets symptoms or tests pos himself?
> 2) A doctors surgery (who test ever 2 weeks), have a receptionist who tested positive, she had mixed (they don’t use masks) with other reception staff, yet only she has to self isolate?
> Call me crazy but a doctors surgery is where the most vulnerable are being seen/need to go, yet they’re being put at risk by the very people who are supposed to be there to help them.  Oh I forgot to mention - the doctors surgery have told staff to keep it all very hush hush, so before going to your doctors/dentists etc I would ask them if they have had any Covid cases on their staff, and then make a decision if you think it’s safe to be seen.



Cynically not surprised to hear this at all. The whole world is insane right now and it is going to get even more so.

I think track and trace is currently a joke and I've stopped taking any notice of anything except what my own common sense is telling me.

It's very sad, but you just have to constantly be on your guard and keep doing the best you can for you and yours.


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> I thought the idea of track and trace was if you had been in contact with a person who had tested positive then you too self isolate?



Joe bloggs can't currently get tested without symptoms. So the only way to be safe is to have them isolate.

The people you speak of are key workers, who can be tested without symptoms. If they are not positive, then they can safely go back to work.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> Joe bloggs can't currently get tested without symptoms. So the only way to be safe is to have them isolate.
> 
> The people you speak of are key workers, who can be tested without symptoms. If they are not positive, then they can safely go back to work.


How can you say ‘safely go back to work’? To my mind if you’ve been in close physical contact (and for many hours) with someone who has tested positive then you are no longer safe to mix with anybody especially vulnerable people.  I know it’s not workable to have people self isolate under these circumstances, but to me it makes a mockery of the whole track and trace system, especially as the people that are then sent for a test have to travel many miles in some cases, and as it’s not compulsory don’t always bother.


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> How can you say ‘safely go back to work’?



I'm only explaining how the system works. If they've been tested negative, why isolate them?

Someone far more in the know than us has decided it's an acceptable risk, when people are getting regular tests.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 10, 2020)

st3v3 said:


> I'm only explaining how the system works. If they've been tested negative, why isolate them?
> 
> Someone far more in the know than us has decided it's an acceptable risk, when people are getting regular tests.


Sorry if it sounded like I was having a pop at you, I wasn’t, just can’t get my head around what the government deem as ‘safe’ practice and what isn’t.


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## st3v3 (Sep 10, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> Sorry if it sounded like I was having a pop at you,



Not at all


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## reiverlad (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> 'Post-covid syndrome' is so new it's not recognised by their current systems (no surprise there though!).


Just read that this Covid that could give a horrible long term lifechanging effect for younger people. 
A german teenager now has type 1 diabetes only 6 weeks after getting infected. 
Scary stuff indeed!     








						German teenager believed to be the first person to have been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes after COVID-19
					

A German teenager is believed to the very first person to have been diagnosed with type 1 diabetes after being infected with COVID-19. It is thought the 19-year-old caught coronavirus from his parents when they returned from their ski holiday. Six weeks later, he was diagnosed with type 1...




					www.diabetes.co.uk


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## groyne (Sep 10, 2020)

Lots of young people develop type 1 Diabetes, so one teenager getting it after having Covid 19 means nothing. It's just scaremongering.


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## reiverlad (Sep 10, 2020)

groyne said:


> Lots of young people develop type 1 Diabetes, so one teenager getting it after having Covid 19 means nothing. It's just scaremongering.


Covid affects different people in different ways and the aftereffects of this are still being found out.
Most young people recover well but others have longer term debilitating effects.
You call it scaremongering - I call it a possible side effect warning that Covid is not a virus that for young people is simply mild.


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## mfw (Sep 10, 2020)

Seems to me that new symptons keep appearing so doctors and scientists are still learning about the disease and if you want some sort of life still allowing for new rules and regulations coming in - think you just need to be aware of your surroundings and get on with life with whatever safety measures you feel comfortable with


----------



## groyne (Sep 10, 2020)

reiverlad said:


> You call it scaremongering - I call it a possible side effect warning that Covid is not a virus that for young people is simply mild.



One Swallow doesn't make a summer. 

Until a direct link is proved it is just an unhappy coincidence, and to publish it at this time is scaremongering.
My sister in law developed type 1 Diabetes in her teens, she was diagnosed shortly after coming home from a holiday in Cyprus. Does this mean teenagers shouldn't go to Cyprus?


----------



## reiverlad (Sep 10, 2020)

groyne said:


> One Swallow doesn't make a summer.
> 
> Until a direct link is proved it is just an unhappy coincidence, and to publish it at this time is scaremongering.
> My sister in law developed type 1 Diabetes in her teens, she was diagnosed shortly after coming home from a holiday in Cyprus. Does this mean teenagers shouldn't go to Cyprus?


I think it is best to wrap this up as we both have opposing views and neither will convince each other as to which view is valid.


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## colinm (Sep 10, 2020)

Lets not wrap it up, lets talk about what has happened to me.
Whilst I wasn't tested at the time, both the hospital and doctor believe I had CV-19 in early April.
Quite out of the blue I have been diagnosed as 'pre-diabetic', after discussions with the doctor this makes no sense as other changes with my health should have meant less of a chance of this happening. I've been looking into this and there is the possibility that CV-19 has affected my pancreas.


----------



## Tookey (Sep 10, 2020)

I don't believe in the conspiracy very simply because government's globally are in agreement that there is a viral pandemic. East agreeing with West, communist, democracies and dictatorships, religious governments etc etc. Never before have they all sung from the same hymn sheet. Surely we would have had a 'whistle blower' by now


----------



## trevskoda (Sep 10, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> I thought the idea of track and trace was if you had been in contact with a person who had tested positive then you too self isolate?   If that’s the case then why has:
> 1) a police friend who spent all day in a car with a colleague who tested pos, being told to carry on working until he gets symptoms or tests pos himself?
> 2) A doctors surgery (who test ever 2 weeks), have a receptionist who tested positive, she had mixed (they don’t use masks) with other reception staff, yet only she has to self isolate?
> Call me crazy but a doctors surgery is where the most vulnerable are being seen/need to go, yet they’re being put at risk by the very people who are supposed to be there to help them.  Oh I forgot to mention - the doctors surgery have told staff to keep it all very hush hush, so before going to your doctors/dentists etc I would ask them if they have had any Covid cases on their staff, and then make a decision if you think it’s safe to be seen.


Our surgerys are all closed,,you have to ph in and consultation is over the ph,other wise you have to go to a hospital,i was very unwell after xmas when i visited a hospital,now my lungs are shot,could i of had cov 19,tested last week and clear but there is no test as yet to tell if you did have it in the past.


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## reiverlad (Sep 10, 2020)

colinmd said:


> Lets not wrap it up, lets talk about what has happened to me.
> Whilst I wasn't tested at the time, both the hospital and doctor believe I had CV-19 in early April.
> Quite out of the blue I have been diagnosed as 'pre-diabetic', after discussions with the doctor this makes no sense as other changes with my health should have meant less of a chance of this happening. I've been looking into this and there is the possibility that CV-19 has affected my pancreas.


Sorry - My 'wrap it up' reference was in regard to my response to ending my discussion with Groyne as we had opposing views


----------



## mark61 (Sep 10, 2020)

Tookey said:


> I don't believe in the conspiracy very simply because government's globally are in agreement that there is a viral pandemic. East agreeing with West, communist, democracies and dictatorships, religious governments etc etc. Never before have they all sung from the same hymn sheet. Surely we would have had a 'whistle blower' by now


 
Thats the biggest clue it's a conspiracy though.


----------



## zzr1400tim (Sep 10, 2020)

I am thoroughly sick to death with the latest nasty restrictions regarding all this Covid flu stuff .. (more panic overreaction) 
Looks like my annual family and friends bonfire night do will now have to be binned because of the "6 people max" rule probably along with Christmas Day with my boys and grandkids .. GRRRRR   
Anyway all is not lost.. we can at least enjoy a "virtual" bonfire night from a few years ago.. 
(saves me about a grand in fireworks this year though )


----------



## Robmac (Sep 10, 2020)

zzr1400tim said:


> I am thoroughly sick to death with the latest nasty restrictions regarding all this Covid flu stuff .. (more panic overreaction)
> Looks like my annual family and friends bonfire night do will now have to be binned because of the "6 people max" rule probably along with Christmas Day with my boys and grandkids .. GRRRRR
> Anyway all is not lost.. we can at least enjoy a "virtual" bonfire night from a few years ago..
> (saves me about a grand in fireworks this year though )



Wow, loved watching that Tim!

We always make a big thing of Bonfire Night and spend a fortune on fireworks (for the kids you understand) along with a feast of jacket spuds, mushy peas, hot dogs, burgers, soup etc. etc. We've been doing this for the last 30 years or so, even my dog likes fireworks!

We usually seat 11 for Christmas dinner and will be devastated to miss out on that this year.


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## John H (Sep 10, 2020)

It is interesting that Sweden, the only country in Europe that didn't impose lockdown, is about to be added to the list of safe countries to visit but France and Spain, which have had some of the most severe lockdown measures, are not. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, so it must just be a gigantic cock-up somewhere along the line


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## zzr1400tim (Sep 10, 2020)

Robmac said:


> Wow, loved watching that Tim!
> 
> We always make a big thing of Bonfire Night and spend a fortune on fireworks (for the kids you understand) along with a feast of jacket spuds, mushy peas, hot dogs, burgers, soup etc. etc. We've been doing this for the last 30 years or so, even my dog likes fireworks!
> 
> We usually seat 11 for Christmas dinner and will be devastated to miss out on that this year.


Thanks Rob.. glad you enjoyed the display.. to be fair I love Bonfire Night a little bit more that Christmas. 
Always have loved the smell and excitement of the fireworks. Childhood nostalgia. Like you I only buy the fireworks for the kids (he says lying) the food and soup and fellowship etc.. all good!  If the stupid restriction is lifted prior I will continue with it.. otherwise I will have to bin it..
I can just imagine a snooping jealous neighbor reporting me to the gestapo police for having more than 6 folks in my garden.. the cops wouldn't have to look far to see where the fireworks were coming from after all  
lets all hope this crap all goes away..  
As for Christmas I usually seat and cater for 10 .. I don't care if this nonsense persists.. they are all coming round here anyway
Matt (hand to cock) isn't ruining my Christmas with my family.. NO WAY!


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Our surgerys are all closed,its ,you have to ph in and consultation is over the ph,other wise you have to go to a hospital,i was very unwell after xmas when i visited a hospital,now my lungs are shot,could i of had cov 19,tested last week and clear but there is no test as yet to tell if you did have it in the past.



There's a fair possibility you had covid, Trev. My friend was given the antibody test at the hospital just 2 weeks ago. She and her GP had to fight pretty hard to get it though. The time lapse between her being very ill in January and her getting an antibody test is about 8 months, so it's obvious there are unknowns/disagreements in the 'scientific community' about this very thing of testing to see if you've had it in the past?

Anyway, the test was positive. Yes, we know there are arguments raging all over about how accurate the antibody tests actually are, please don't go through them all again in this thread, thanks folks! 

There are lots more people who appear to be long-term affected by covid than you might imagine. It's only actual deaths everyone seems to be obsessed about, but some of the after effects for survivors appear to be very real and potentially very life changing.


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## runnach (Sep 10, 2020)

6 limit to social gatherings ? Even the seven dwarfs and Snow White are goosed


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## in h (Sep 10, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> There are lots more people who appear to be long-term affected by covid than you might imagine. It's only actual deaths everyone seems to be obsessed about, but some of the after effects for survivors appear to be very real and potentially very life changing.


Yes, seems that most of the people who die were none too well in the first place, but a lot of people have survived with some long-lasting serious damage. 
Possibly even permanent. It's too early to tell.
All we really know is that we don't know much, and the little good information out there is being twisted and misinterpreted for political ends


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## rugbyken (Sep 10, 2020)

i was hospitalised 2 years ago with pneumonia took 3 months to fully recover , last christmas started on the same route diagnosed chest infection 27th of December breathing still not right 8 months on, so all the conspiracy theorists that say covid has been around a while have a believer,


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 10, 2020)

If you look at the way we are mistreating the eco-systems on this wee planet of ours it is far from surprising that viruses like covid will start appearing more often.

If the purpose of a virus is to propagate itself and spread, then when we are decimating whole species to the brink of extinction it seems perfectly valid to me that we will see far more incidents of zoonoses, i.e. viruses trying to survive but running out of access to their 'normal' hosts.

Nature will always have the last word no matter how clever we think we are as the 'top species'


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## trevskoda (Sep 10, 2020)

Here are the new rules from monday.


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## GWAYGWAY (Sep 13, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> So folks dying is not happening, get real


Not really the POSITIVE tests are just that and not illness the more they test the more false positive/negative they will find. PCR test finds segments of virus and it is not a screening test, but only a confirmation in those with a definite diagnosis, just to confirm it. They are using all the figures to make their case and cause more mayhem.
Those that are at risk are those that are vulnerable from having a weak immune system from deficiency of vitamin D3. there are many clinical trials that confirm this but it is studiously ignored by those that are in charge. The ones that are at risk are  Black/ Fat/ Diabetic and the old who are kept indoors also those who never get into the sunshine with their skin exposed.  Kids are not normally getting ill as they tend to be a lot more outside and not metabolically challenged. The odds of getting ill at the moment are in the millions to one.  You need to look very closely at the lies put out by the BBC and media, because they are lies and the causation of grief and fear in the general public, who know little about it other than the media say.
It is a COUP and it is coming to a head again in November when it all kicks off properly.
Those that partake in the organisations might do well to remember that it is going to affect them as well and their families as well. It is worldwide and organised for 40+ years.
The virus is an ordinary coronavirus, same as  Flu, and even the common cold, it opens the vulnerable to Cytokine storm which is the dangerous state. However, cutting your finger can lead to septicaemia and another cytokine storm can strike with exactly the same result. 1500 people on average die every day and the excess deaths from 'THE VIRUS' has not added many to that figure until all of those causes got moved around. The hospital system is grinding along trying to play catch up with tens of thousands of neglected patients on the various treatment pathways that were CANCELLED.
I had to go into ITU every day at work, and there always a load of ventilated critical cases, My Wife was a senior Sister in ITU
as well and she knows what is going on day in day out.
You might like to ask Lord Rothschild what his views are on the whole debacle, next time you see him.
Those of you that might want to troll me over this posting might like to ask at their next lodge meeting, what their policy is about it.


----------



## korky (Sep 14, 2020)

GWAYGWAY said:


> Not really the POSITIVE tests are just that and not illness the more they test the more false positive/negative they will find. PCR test finds segments of virus and it is not a screening test, but only a confirmation in those with a definite diagnosis, just to confirm it. They are using all the figures to make their case and cause more mayhem.
> Those that are at risk are those that are vulnerable from having a weak immune system from deficiency of vitamin D3. there are many clinical trials that confirm this but it is studiously ignored by those that are in charge. The ones that are at risk are  Black/ Fat/ Diabetic and the old who are kept indoors also those who never get into the sunshine with their skin exposed.  Kids are not normally getting ill as they tend to be a lot more outside and not metabolically challenged. The odds of getting ill at the moment are in the millions to one.  You need to look very closely at the lies put out by the BBC and media, because they are lies and the causation of grief and fear in the general public, who know little about it other than the media say.
> It is a COUP and it is coming to a head again in November when it all kicks off properly.
> Those that partake in the organisations might do well to remember that it is going to affect them as well and their families as well. It is worldwide and organised for 40+ years.
> ...


I'll get back to you in November then.


----------



## Tookey (Sep 14, 2020)

GWAYGWAY said:


> Not really the POSITIVE tests are just that and not illness the more they test the more false positive/negative they will find. PCR test finds segments of virus and it is not a screening test, but only a confirmation in those with a definite diagnosis, just to confirm it. They are using all the figures to make their case and cause more mayhem.
> Those that are at risk are those that are vulnerable from having a weak immune system from deficiency of vitamin D3. there are many clinical trials that confirm this but it is studiously ignored by those that are in charge. The ones that are at risk are  Black/ Fat/ Diabetic and the old who are kept indoors also those who never get into the sunshine with their skin exposed.  Kids are not normally getting ill as they tend to be a lot more outside and not metabolically challenged. The odds of getting ill at the moment are in the millions to one.  You need to look very closely at the lies put out by the BBC and media, because they are lies and the causation of grief and fear in the general public, who know little about it other than the media say.
> It is a COUP and it is coming to a head again in November when it all kicks off properly.
> Those that partake in the organisations might do well to remember that it is going to affect them as well and their families as well. It is worldwide and organised for 40+ years.
> ...


Hi GWAY,

I still properly read your posts and give them thought. The main reason I still can't get on board with your thinking is why 'they' would do it. Presently I see no political or economic gain and can't forecast any either. When looking at it from your viewpoint maybe I could argue it was a mass social experiment of population control but that's the best I can do, I would also counter that argument by saying that you could achieve that in a manner that didn't cost the government billions.

This has also been humiliating for China, what possible incentive could they have. They have complete social and political control within their borders and globally they are an economic giant. What will/has China gained other than being embarrassed?


----------



## wildebus (Sep 14, 2020)

The "plandemic" theory holds as much water as the "flat earth" conspiracy, where every government is hiding the "truth".


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 14, 2020)

A lot of the stuff Graham talks about makes sense to me (the health stuff), apart from the conspiracy side of things.
Who knows? Stranger things happen at sea...

If anyone watched the David Attenborough program last night I think that's a better explanation of why we are where we are in the world right now.


----------



## John H (Sep 14, 2020)

Tookey said:


> Hi GWAY,
> 
> I still properly read your posts and give them thought. The main reason I still can't get on board with your thinking is why 'they' would do it. Presently I see no political or economic gain and can't forecast any either. When looking at it from your viewpoint maybe I could argue it was a mass social experiment of population control but that's the best I can do, I would also counter that argument by saying that you could achieve that in a manner that didn't cost the government billions.
> 
> This has also been humiliating for China, what possible incentive could they have. They have complete social and political control within their borders and globally they are an economic giant. What will/has China gained other than being embarrassed?



I agree. Apart from the lack of obvious motive, my argument against conspiracy theories is that I don't believe there is enough collective wit or intelligence around to sustain such a conspiracy. Take a look at our current government, for example, who bumble from one crisis to another, can't agree amongst themselves and seem not to have any plan at all. How long do you think they could sustain a conspiracy? And it is the same with most organisations, business or otherwise, that I have had dealings with in my life.


----------



## Tookey (Sep 14, 2020)

John H said:


> I agree. Apart from the lack of obvious motive, my argument against conspiracy theories is that I don't believe there is enough collective wit or intelligence around to sustain such a conspiracy. Take a look at our current government, for example, who bumble from one crisis to another, can't agree amongst themselves and seem not to have any plan at all. How long do you think they could sustain a conspiracy? And it is the same with most organisations, business or otherwise, that I have had dealings with in my life.


Agreed. The ultimate conspiracy theory, the moon landing, it rightly had to be questioned and still is today by some because the gains were huge on the political platform and due to the cold war it was also a very internal affair to the US.

The programme 'mythbusters' finally convinced me that it genuine and I suppose the fact that the then superpower the USSR couldn't prove it was fake probably helped


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## wildebus (Sep 14, 2020)

In terms of conspiracies, the only one I still cannot dismiss for sure is the 9/11 one and building collapses, especially the third one that collapsed seemingly all on its own without being hit by anything.


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## John H (Sep 14, 2020)

wildebus said:


> In terms of conspiracies, the only one I still cannot dismiss for sure is the 9/11 one and building collapses, especially the third one that collapsed seemingly all on its own without being hit by anything.



I don't know anything about engineering and I was unaware of a third building but it seems to me that if two large objects start to fall apart then the vibrations alone would undermine anything around.


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## Tookey (Sep 14, 2020)

wildebus said:


> In terms of conspiracies, the only one I still cannot dismiss for sure is the 9/11 one and building collapses, especially the third one that collapsed seemingly all on its own without being hit by anything.


.....and still continues not to add up

That event surely is propaganda gold for Trump to rally his nationalist rednecks and he doesn't use it, odd


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## Tookey (Sep 14, 2020)

We should probably stop with this before we get started!


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## mark61 (Sep 14, 2020)

wildebus said:


> The "plandemic" theory holds as much water as the "flat earth" conspiracy, where every government is hiding the "truth".



That assumes the government know the truth.


----------



## mark61 (Sep 14, 2020)

John H said:


> I agree. Apart from the lack of obvious motive, my argument against conspiracy theories is that I don't believe there is enough collective wit or intelligence around to sustain such a conspiracy. Take a look at our current government, for example, who bumble from one crisis to another, can't agree amongst themselves and seem not to have any plan at all. How long do you think they could sustain a conspiracy? And it is the same with most organisations, business or otherwise, that I have had dealings with in my life.


Bumbling from one crisis to another is all part of the plan, 

Well it could be, I don't know


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## wildebus (Sep 14, 2020)

Tookey said:


> .....and still continues not to add up
> 
> That event surely is propaganda gold for Trump to rally his nationalist rednecks and he doesn't use it, odd


If it happened during the term of a Democratic President, I have no doubt it would figure large.


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## Apollo 13 (Sep 14, 2020)

Back to the original question about the overland show, Gadget John released a YouTube message 3 days ago saying that the meeting has been cancelled.


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## st3v3 (Sep 14, 2020)

wildebus said:


> In terms of conspiracies, the only one I still cannot dismiss for sure is the 9/11 one and building collapses, especially the third one that collapsed seemingly all on its own without being hit by anything.



You mean WTC7? It had a f'kin great big hole in it lol.


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## mark61 (Sep 14, 2020)

John H said:


> I don't know anything about engineering and I was unaware of a third building but it seems to me that if two large objects start to fall apart then the vibrations alone would undermine anything around.



I think it was flying debris that bought the third building down.
Unless thats another conspiracy, I really don't know.


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## Aly (Sep 14, 2020)

John H said:


> It is interesting that Sweden, the only country in Europe that didn't impose lockdown, is about to be added to the list of safe countries to visit but France and Spain, which have had some of the most severe lockdown measures, are not. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, so it must just be a gigantic cock-up somewhere along the line


Not locking down involved people using their common sense and maintaining social distancing. Unfortunately a large proportion of the GBP don’t seem to have any common sense or consideration of others.


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## John H (Sep 14, 2020)

Aly said:


> Not locking down involved people using their common sense and maintaining social distancing. Unfortunately a large proportion of the GBP don’t seem to have any common sense or consideration of others.



True - but I've seen pictures of people in Sweden ignoring distancing and gathering in large crowds, so bad behaviour isn't limited to one society. I just find it interesting that the spread of the virus seems to be most rapid in Europe at the moment in countries which had the most severe lockdowns. Maybe there is something in the herd-immunity principle. I don't see how else to explain why Sweden seems to be coming out of this better than others.


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## mark61 (Sep 14, 2020)

John H said:


> True - but I've seen pictures of people in Sweden ignoring distancing and gathering in large crowds, so bad behaviour isn't limited to one society. I just find it interesting that the spread of the virus seems to be most rapid in Europe at the moment in countries which had the most severe lockdowns. Maybe there is something in the herd-immunity principle. I don't see how else to explain why Sweden seems to be coming out of this better than others.



Agree, I have cousins in Finland, Sweden and Denmark. Barring crossing roads ( they think it very odd that people in the UK cross roads anywhere) they are no more compliant, or lets say not much more, than here and they certainly have their share of bad behaviour.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 14, 2020)

And just to make the gatherings of no more than six clearer than mud, it all depends on where you live as England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales ALL have a different take on things.  The mind boggles.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 14, 2020)

Never mind the gatherings of over six, we now have 2 primary schools in Kirklees with positive Covid cases, they’ve only been back a week!!!


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## runnach (Sep 14, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> Never mind the gatherings of over six, we now have 2 primary schools in Kirklees with positive Covid cases, they’ve only been back a week!!!


That comes as absolutely no surprise....


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## mickymost (Sep 14, 2020)

channa said:


> That comes as absolutely no surprise....




Why?Thought it didnt affect the younger ones the same?


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## runnach (Sep 14, 2020)

mickymost said:


> Why?Thought it didnt affect the younger ones the same?


Perhaps not, but affects elders like grandparents the don’t seem to fair so well

Then kids kept in bubbles at school is fine but knock around together out of school mixing again with elders, common sense to me at least they are ripe for carrying and spreading the virus


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## mickymost (Sep 14, 2020)

Looking at the news it seems many all over the Country arent taking or intend to take notice of the 6 person rule.Beaches crowded again.Groups in parks and rivers enjoying the sunshine and some when questioned say they have had enough of this ridiculous situation and are going to do their own thing.Even Boris and the Govt had said fines wont be issued for a while.


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## wildebus (Sep 16, 2020)

yorkieowl said:


> And just to make the gatherings of no more than six clearer than mud, it all depends on where you live as England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales ALL have a different take on things.  The mind boggles.


Different situations, different rules. Why are people surprised? In most countries, different rules have been implemented in different regions. Australia varies from state to state, as does Germany.  What makes the UK any different just because the word "United" is in the name?


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## barryd (Sep 16, 2020)

John H said:


> True - but I've seen pictures of people in Sweden ignoring distancing and gathering in large crowds, so bad behaviour isn't limited to one society. I just find it interesting that the spread of the virus seems to be most rapid in Europe at the moment in countries which had the most severe lockdowns. Maybe there is something in the herd-immunity principle. I don't see how else to explain why Sweden seems to be coming out of this better than others.



I read something the other day that said in Sweden people have just religiously followed the social distancing rules. I know you said you saw pictures of people ignoring them but perhaps they were isolated.  It kind of makes sense.  The more severely locked down you were the more likely you were to get sick of it and feel let of the leash when that was relaxed.  If you were not locked down but strict rules enforced that are pretty much the same throughout then maybe you get used to them and they just become the norm.  There cannot really be any other explanation.   If numbers of infections are down it can only be because people are not getting close to each other.  I dont know what their track and trace procedure is like but clearly ours is maybe not so "world beating" after all.

There has been a perception I think that it was somehow all over. Clearly its not.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 16, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Different situations, different rules. Why are people surprised? In most countries, different rules have been implemented in different regions. Australia varies from state to state, as does Germany.  What makes the UK any different just because the word "United" is in the name?



I'm not surprised, just baffled as to how they think any of these arbitrary 'rules' are making any difference in the long run?

For example, I can understand why, when you need to step outside your front door for whatever reason - work, health, shopping etc. - that some sensible health and safety practices could be useful, and can be more easily monitored. Social distancing, masks, hand sanitising etc.

But stop and think about the whole shebang and it is simply an impossible situation.

The bottom line is that the govt. are using blunt (and extremely draconian) methods in an attempt to control a killer variant of the common cold that is never going back in the box.

Lock up, fine or restrict your citizens, but they should at least have the common decency to balance what they're expecting us all to do by honouring the bargain at their end, i.e. get this test & trace system up and working properly. Otherwise all of us are left taking more and more pain (in a multitude of senses!) because of a govt. who appear to be continuing to organise parties in dry breweries.

It's no wonder that people are feeling increasingly frustrated, bemused and confused.
I'm surprised that you are surprised that people are surprised and confused at the different rules!


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## yorkieowl (Sep 16, 2020)

wildebus said:


> Different situations, different rules. Why are people surprised? In most countries, different rules have been implemented in different regions. Australia varies from state to state, as does Germany.  What makes the UK any different just because the word "United" is in the name?


I can understand the reasoning behind local restrictions/lockdowns, but for ie. Scotland to be different overall rules to England makes no sense whatsoever, especially the groups under 6 with/without kids.  A lot of people get confused easy enough as it is, if it’s to do with the ‘experts’ agreeing then bang their darned heads together and get on with it.  Me personally - I’ll listen then do what I consider safe for us, which is a sight better than what I’m being asked/told to do!  But then I was always, over safety conscious, I should have worked for Health and Safety, I would have been very popular.  Not.


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## jagmanx (Sep 16, 2020)

George Orwell a prophet before his time !
BORIS ?????


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## mark61 (Sep 16, 2020)

I'd say more Brave New World.


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## John H (Sep 16, 2020)

barryd said:


> I read something the other day that said in Sweden people have just religiously followed the social distancing rules. I know you said you saw pictures of people ignoring them but perhaps they were isolated.  It kind of makes sense.  The more severely locked down you were the more likely you were to get sick of it and feel let of the leash when that was relaxed.  If you were not locked down but strict rules enforced that are pretty much the same throughout then maybe you get used to them and they just become the norm.  There cannot really be any other explanation.   If numbers of infections are down it can only be because people are not getting close to each other.  I dont know what their track and trace procedure is like but clearly ours is maybe not so "world beating" after all.
> 
> There has been a perception I think that it was somehow all over. Clearly its not.



It may well be that the vast majority of Swedes are acting "responsibly" but any system is as strong as its weakest link and if the stories that I and others have mentioned are true then Sweden has its fair share of idiots - just like everywhere else. For me, the critical thing is that Sweden has said that there is little or no evidence that face masks have any value and has not made them compulsory. We had a Baltic trip planned in June and the country that we had the most difficulty getting money back from was Sweden because they said they were open as normal. The infection rate was high to start off with (but no higher per 100,000 than the average of countries that imposed mask wearing). That rate is now low enough to enable the country to be put on our "green" list, whereas the countries that imposed the most rigorous mask-wearing are not. As I said, maybe the herd immunity thing has some merit.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 16, 2020)

Better hope the herd immunity thing has merit in the long run, cos that's the only thing that's happening for definite right now.


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## Tookey (Sep 16, 2020)

We have to consider population and population density with Sweden being a great example. Entire population is less than London alone and population density is 25 per square km, ours is 275 as average in UK but England itself is 432.

Probably fairer only to compare Stockholm and London tbh as most Swedes are concentrated in their capital but even here the square km density is 4,200 compared to Londons 5,700.

Take into consideration standard of living, average number of people per household and population percentage of the 'harder hit' ethnicities and I am unsure whether you can compare the two nations


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## mark61 (Sep 16, 2020)

Tookey said:


> We have to consider population and population density with Sweden being a great example. Entire population is less than London alone and population density is 25 per square km, ours is 275 as average in UK but England itself is 432.
> 
> Probably fairer only to compare Stockholm and London tbh as most Swedes are concentrated in their capital but even here the square km density is 4,200 compared to Londons 5,700.
> 
> Take into consideration standard of living, average number of people per household and population percentage of the 'harder hit' ethnicities and I am unsure whether you can compare the two nations



The 4200 sq km is for Stockholm County, the city of Stockholm is much higher.

Same with London, the 5700 is for what I believe they call the London Metropolitan area. Where I live we are over 17000 per sq km, as is a lot of inner London.


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## ricc (Sep 17, 2020)

looking at mans attempts to conquer nature throughout history im surprised that polititians and the media continue think we can completly beat this virus..imho at best we can mitigate its effects to some extent.   
covid 19 is a relative of the common cold....weve been trying to "cure" that since last century with not much sucess.....   billions are spent on flu vaccines. arguably with some success..but theres always a different one comes along next year.


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## trevskoda (Sep 17, 2020)

It has now been proved that cov19 was a manufactured bug as it has 3 components which does not happen in nature,a chinness defector who worked in the lab has proof and spilled the beans,our gov is trying to keep this QT as china owns our banking depts.


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## Tookey (Sep 17, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> It has now been proved that cov19 was a manufactured bug as it has 3 components which does not happen in nature,a chinness defector who worked in the lab has proof and spilled the beans,our gov is trying to keep this QT as china owns our banking depts.


Have you got a link Trev?


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 17, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> It has now been proved that cov19 was a manufactured bug as it has 3 components which does not happen in nature,a chinness defector who worked in the lab has proof and spilled the beans,our gov is trying to keep this QT as china owns our banking depts.



Possible, but I'm still highly sceptical.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 17, 2020)

What is more likely is that this is a natural virus that has jumped species, like many others before.

The ensuing chaos it has caused worldwide as a result has been inevitable and certainly not calculated, in my mind at least.

However, I believe the difficult situation in the UK right now has a lot more to do with political machinations than the actual virus itself.

My understanding - anyone in the know correct me if I'm wrong? - is that we have always had the internal, UK-based lab capacity to deal with a vast majority of the test, track & tracing we needed from day one.

However, we are currently sending tests to labs in the USA & Germany(?!), and at the same time there appears to be a huge bottle jam on the ground to actually get a test done in the first place. All of these delays/shortages could have been mitigated, but I have a feeling it could be more to do with the big profits that can be made from companies that BJ, Cummings & Co have financially vested interests in.

They couldn't give a stuff about us and will be quite happy for the virus to be jumping around building up herd immunity, which after all was what Cummings always wanted from day one. In the meantime they can make commercial hay while the virus sun still shines. One man's misfortune is another man's opportunity and all that?

And before anyone says anything, this is just as plausible a conspiracy theory than a lot of the regular scaremongering circulating about a 'deliberately manufactured Chinese virus' and 'Big Brother is here', etc. In fact, I reckon if we could be flies behind certain closed political doors we could find my speculation is closer to the truth than you might think...

Just sayin'


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## mark61 (Sep 17, 2020)

I think covid being engineered is still considered a "conspiracy", trouble is the people calling it a conspiracy are the same people who tell porkies about everything.   
We will probably never know the truth anyway, not for 50+ years.

I'd put money  ( a fiver at most  ) on it being engineered, in China, cultured on cancer cells, something to do with the Hayflick limit, but escaped because of poor management, not on purpose. US has invested fortunes on labs in China, so not necessarily anything to do with China owning banks, not that we can rule that out.

Hows that for starters for a good chat around the camp fire.


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## n brown (Sep 17, 2020)




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## antiquesam (Sep 17, 2020)

I booked the holiday cottage where we're staying this week after our river cruise on the Douro was cancelled in May. We've been in pubs and restaurants, we walked around a museum, visited an antique fair and traipsed around a very busy Whitby (for the last time, to many "kiss me quick" hat shops now) and a cold and windy Scarborough. I'm too close to my three score and ten to waste time locked away wondering whether I'm going to catch Covid. I wear a mask when required, I sanitise my hands at every opportunity but I'm not going to waste what useful life I have left cowering to a virus, because there are so many things lurking out there anyway.


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## barryd (Sep 17, 2020)

Tookey said:


> We have to consider population and population density with Sweden being a great example. Entire population is less than London alone and population density is 25 per square km, ours is 275 as average in UK but England itself is 432.
> 
> Probably fairer only to compare Stockholm and London tbh as most Swedes are concentrated in their capital but even here the square km density is 4,200 compared to Londons 5,700.
> 
> Take into consideration standard of living, average number of people per household and population percentage of the 'harder hit' ethnicities and I am unsure whether you can compare the two nations



This does make sense.  I started checking coronavirus deaths locally and they are tiny.  I live in the second least populated region in England. about 30 per sq km. Surrounding areas Teesdale Co. Durham. Rydale and Richmondshire North yorkshire and Eden Cumbria are also down the bottom of the population density scale and there are hardly any deaths. As of the end of June in Teesdale there were just 10 deaths which includes the now famous Barnard Castle which is the largest town with 7 of those deaths in a population of about 5500.  Just 3 in the rest of Teesdale which is massive. Covers about 400 sq miles or something like that.  I dont know anyone local that has had it never mind died of it.   Population density will of course make a massive difference.  Its a fairly elderly population here also.  You would think that would increase the amount of deaths but I also think the older population are and have generally been more cautious.  No over crowded areas or housing here.  I dont think there are any flats at all.

So your theory about Sweden probably has a lot of merit.


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## mark61 (Sep 17, 2020)

barryd said:


> This does make sense.  I started checking coronavirus deaths locally and they are tiny.  I live in the second least populated region in England. about 30 per sq km. Surrounding areas Teesdale Co. Durham. Rydale and Richmondshire North yorkshire and Eden Cumbria are also down the bottom of the population density scale and there are hardly any deaths. As of the end of June in Teesdale there were just 10 deaths which includes the now famous Barnard Castle which is the largest town with 7 of those deaths in a population of about 5500.  Just 3 in the rest of Teesdale which is massive. Covers about 400 sq miles or something like that.  I dont know anyone local that has had it never mind died of it.   Population density will of course make a massive difference.  Its a fairly elderly population here also.  You would think that would increase the amount of deaths but I also think the older population are and have generally been more cautious.  No over crowded areas or housing here.  I dont think there are any flats at all.
> 
> So your theory about Sweden probably has a lot of merit.



True, you can't compare UK with Sweden, and neither can Sweden be compared with Finland and Norway, ( I'm not saying you are but many do)

The only places in Europe that are in any way comparable are Belgium and Netherlands. Only small areas in Germany and France come close in population density.


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## Nabsim (Sep 17, 2020)

Has anyone seen police wearing masks first hand, I haven’t?


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## mark61 (Sep 17, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> Has anyone seen police wearing masks first hand, I haven’t?



Yes. Not taken enough notice to give even a rough estimate. Will observe when out later.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 17, 2020)

The counties of Durham and Northumberland are for the large part fairly rural.

If a factor for infection is population density then maybe we should start with London for lockdown? 

Yeah, right. I think now we're past the first big panic and initial total lockdown the chances of that happening is zero.
Too much money at stake down there in the smoke.

But, they have to be seen to be continuing to be doing something, so the North is a perfect choice.
They've never given a stuff about us anyways. We've always been fair game for taking collateral damage when it comes to economics.


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## trevskoda (Sep 17, 2020)

Tookey said:


> Have you got a link Trev?


No my friend is a ex lab man working in antrim doing this and some of his ex workers gave him a call about whats going on,we dont know the half of it and gov dont want you to know either as it would cause a revolt.


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## ricc (Sep 17, 2020)

seen any police wearing a mask?.... round here that would be difficult cant rememember when i last saw a policeman.... did see a fire engine on blues this morning...  begs the question if we never see any police how are they going to enforce the "guidelines"  


just googled the differences tween covid and flu.... all the symptoms of covid appear with flu and common cold do symptoms are not a positive diagnosis....unless your collecting figures for government stats.     a diagnostic test is the only 100 percent confermation.


the tests were using arnt 100 percent reliable diagnostic tests so even cases confirmed by testing are actually suspect.... 

only conclusion i can come to is all the statistics are total bullocks....only reason to produce them is to con the public


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 17, 2020)

ricc said:


> seen any police wearing a mask?.... round here that would be difficult cant rememember when i last saw a policeman.... did see a fire engine on blues this morning...  begs the question if we never see any police *how are they going to enforce the "guidelines"*



By doing our 'good citizen' bit? 
Weren't we very recently encouraged to shop friends, neighbours and anyone else breaking the new 'rules' by the delightful Pritti Patel?  
Nasty. Smacks slightly of nazism, imho. Talk about divide and rule... Prft!

Let's blame Joe Public instead, start some in-fighting and generate more tensions/hatred.
That takes the heat off the government - phew! (who are being far from open right now....  )

Anywhere with a till (as has been mentioned before) is still able to operate, just with a reduction in opening hours and a return to 'take away' or 'table only' service as far as I can tell reading up on some of the new rules for areas already in special lockdown. Dunno what else will apply, but another main (and nasty!) rule is not being able to mix with other households who are not already in your 'bubble'. Everywhere else it's business as usual.

Just been watching a meeting of the Scientific Committee for a while. Reading between the lines there is a sense of resignation and points to finger crossing that herd immunity is going to save us.

But who is going to save the businesses, children's education and the nation's physical and mental health while this rollercoaster continues?

I also reckon the number of redundancies looming on the horizon will far surpass the conservative figures being bandied around by those at the top who prefer spin to reality. And further new redundancies will come about not just because of ending furlough, but also because of these local lockdowns.


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## colinm (Sep 17, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> My understanding - anyone in the know correct me if I'm wrong? - is that we have always had the internal, UK-based lab capacity to deal with a vast majority of the test, track & tracing we needed from day one.
> 
> However, we are currently sending tests to labs in the USA & Germany(?!)



I'm not 100% sure, but I believe Germany had much higher lab capacity for testing than the UK, I did try and check this a couple of months ago, but gave up.


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## ricc (Sep 17, 2020)

when did an unsubstantiated  report from a member of the public become sufficient proof for police to take action and for a court to issue a fine.  ?   

were in rural somerset.   reporting real crimes to the police is often a waste of time , there just arnt enough bodies on the ground .  there just isnt the manpower to collect evidence and process the paperwork for real crimes let alone  to try to enforce silly guidelines


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## Tookey (Sep 17, 2020)

ricc said:


> when did an unsubstantiated  report from a member of the public become sufficient proof for police to take action and for a court to issue a fine.  ?
> 
> were in rural somerset.   reporting real crimes to the police is often a waste of time , there just arnt enough bodies on the ground .  there just isnt the manpower to collect evidence and process the paperwork for real crimes let alone  to try to enforce silly guidelines


I suspect the police completely agree with you


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## Scotia (Sep 17, 2020)




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## Geraldine (Sep 17, 2020)




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## Toffeecat (Sep 17, 2020)

Is it ok to pop down the pub rammed with people, drive in an illegal but limited and specific manner to the moors above say Barnard Castle to meet with the local Red Grouse Ravers for a spot of base inspired grouse shooting. Sounds good to me!!


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## Toffeecat (Sep 17, 2020)

Ive had eat out to help out, now its stay in and drink gin. Oh well, when in Rome.............................


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## trevskoda (Sep 17, 2020)

Toffeecat said:


> Is it ok to pop down the pub rammed with people, drive in an illegal but limited and specific manner to the moors above say Barnard Castle to meet with the local Red Grouse Ravers for a spot of base inspired grouse shooting. Sounds good to me!!


Put on womens clothing and hang around in bars,oh


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## campervanannie (Sep 18, 2020)

n brown said:


> View attachment 86601


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## colinm (Sep 18, 2020)

I keep seeing peoples reaction to organised shoots being allowed under the new rules, why? Surely people should be objecting to indoor sports or contact sports, not one where the pegs are at least 25yards apart.


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## campervanannie (Sep 18, 2020)

colinmd said:


> I keep seeing peoples reaction to organised shoots being allowed under the new rules, why? Surely people should be objecting to indoor sports or contact sports, not one where the pegs are at least 25yards apart.


I wasn’t objecting I just liked the pretty picture.


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## shaunr68 (Sep 18, 2020)

Interesting day ahead.  I work at a campsite in Staffordshire.  We have been extremely busy all summer and still packed every weekend.  We have almost 70 units arriving today and typically for a weekend, many will have added requests to be pitched near family/friends.  Management have decided on a policy whereby we will pitch in the general vicinity but not next to one another, so that we are not facilitating people breaking the rules.  I predict lots of moaning campers today!


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 18, 2020)

shaunr68 said:


> Interesting day ahead.  I work at a campsite in Staffordshire.  We have been extremely busy all summer and still packed every weekend.  We have almost 70 units arriving today and typically for a weekend, many will have added requests to be pitched near family/friends.  Management have decided on a policy whereby we will pitch in the general vicinity but not next to one another, so that we are not facilitating people breaking the rules.  I predict lots of moaning campers today!



Yes, impossible to police and have to rely completely on people's good will and compliance.

No doubt you will have the odd plonker, hope you don't get too many!

I don't envy you, good luck and hope it doesn't go too badly


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## n brown (Sep 18, 2020)

going to see that new film tonight  ''Snow White and the Five Dwarfs ''.  it's similar to Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs'' but not so illegal


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## korky (Sep 18, 2020)

colinmd said:


> I keep seeing peoples reaction to organised shoots being allowed under the new rules, why? Surely people should be objecting to indoor sports or contact sports, not one where the pegs are at least 25yards apart.


You're right of course but any excuse to give them bad press as unnecessary cruelty aside ,they cause massive environmental damage.


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## colinm (Sep 18, 2020)

korky said:


> You're right of course but any excuse to give them bad press as unnecessary cruelty aside ,they cause massive environmental damage.


Firstly let me say I'm not someone who goes to organised shoots, and I'm not a supporter, I do shoot the occasional pheasant,  we get quite a few on our land from the nabouring farm which does have shoots.
Anyway back to Grouse shooting, any environmental damage they might make is hotly disputed, and many shoots will point to the environmental work they do, and quite rightly they point out sports such as football, cricket and many others do considerably more environmental damage.


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## GWAYGWAY (Sep 18, 2020)

It is asked what happens in November? Well look at the situation in Australia NOW and you will notice they are in the tightest lockdown imaginable and there are NEW paramilitary police unit with the attributes of SWAT teams, their uniforms  als carry an NEW flag for Australia with a Big star on it under the union flag bit. They have the ABC doing the bidding of the 'government'  but not telling the truth At all. There is sod all virus going about but loads of total subjugation. Look to SKY news australia for confirmation on you tube if it is still there.  If you all still think nothing is really going on, then why is our government throwing money at everything , money they do not have. SIMPLE it is because they are not having to do it or pay it back . As the situation will change and we will be so bust as nothing will be on the shelves and civil breakdown will break out. WHY did the MOD buy 32000 gloc 9s for the police to have when the shit hits that particular fan.
Those above the 16degree SR,  will know what I am saying. Nobody else is really party to what is happening just following instructions from above.


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## colinm (Sep 18, 2020)

Next you'll be saying we will have Covid Marshals, oh wait, we already have got them!


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## witzend (Sep 18, 2020)

One things for sure the police in cornwall aren't going to enforce the 6 rule Piers Corbin organised a rally against forced wearing of masks in Truro today and they did nothing


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## in h (Sep 19, 2020)

John H said:


> I don't see how else to explain why Sweden seems to be coming out of this better than others.


They didn't outsource testing, track and trace to incompetent companies run by cronies and party funders. They gave the work to people with the ability to do the job. That's one big difference.


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## n brown (Sep 19, 2020)

in h said:


> They didn't outsource testing, track and trace to incompetent companies run by cronies and party funders. They gave the work to people with the ability to do the job. That's one big difference.


odd way of going about it ! what's next ? politicians going to statesmanship classes ? maybe having qualifications for the job they're given ?


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## witzend (Sep 19, 2020)

colinmd said:


> Anyway back to Grouse shooting, any environmental damage they might make is hotly disputed, and many shoots will point to the environmental work they do, and quite rightly they point out sports such as football, cricket and many others do considerably more environmental damage.





korky said:


> You're right of course but any excuse to give them bad press as unnecessary cruelty aside ,they cause massive environmental damage.


The Estates where the shooting is held spend £1000's each year maintaining the moors I don't see how that can be be bad for the environment. But can see how the millions of people traveling globally to other sporting fixtures is


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## in h (Sep 19, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> It has now been proved that cov19 was a manufactured bug as it has 3 components which does not happen in nature,a chinness defector who worked in the lab has proof and spilled the beans,our gov is trying to keep this QT as china owns our banking depts.


Twaddle


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## in h (Sep 19, 2020)

colinmd said:


> Firstly let me say I'm not someone who goes to organised shoots, and I'm not a supporter, I do shoot the occasional pheasant,  we get quite a few on our land from the nabouring farm which does have shoots.
> Anyway back to Grouse shooting, any environmental damage they might make is hotly disputed, and many shoots will point to the environmental work they do, and quite rightly they point out sports such as football, cricket and many others do considerably more environmental damage.


If you lived in a flood zone below an over-drained grouse shooting moor, you would know that what you have posted is utterly untrue. It's an obscenity.


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2020)

in h said:


> If you lived in a flood zone below an over-drained grouse shooting moor, you would know that what you have posted is utterly untrue. It's an obscenity.


Well that's one view put out by the likes of LACS, here's another view.








						Are moorlands drained for grouse shooting purposes?
					

In August 2019, the Labour party claimed moorland is drained for grouse shooting.




					www.whatthesciencesays.org


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## TimSands (Sep 19, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> It has now been proved that cov19 was a manufactured bug as it has 3 components which does not happen in nature,a chinness defector who worked in the lab has proof and spilled the beans,our gov is trying to keep this QT as china owns our banking depts.


This is utter nonsense and has been knocking around for months. Conspiracy theories are fundamentally dangerous as they prevent people making sensible decisions


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## korky (Sep 19, 2020)

colinmd said:


> Firstly let me say I'm not someone who goes to organised shoots, and I'm not a supporter, I do shoot the occasional pheasant,  we get quite a few on our land from the nabouring farm which does have shoots.
> Anyway back to Grouse shooting, any environmental damage they might make is hotly disputed, and many shoots will point to the environmental work they do, and quite rightly they point out sports such as football, cricket and many others do considerably more environmental damage.





colinmd said:


> Firstly let me say I'm not someone who goes to organised shoots, and I'm not a supporter, I do shoot the occasional pheasant,  we get quite a few on our land from the nabouring farm which does have shoots.
> Anyway back to Grouse shooting, any environmental damage they might make is hotly disputed, and many shoots will point to the environmental work they do, and quite rightly they point out sports such as football, cricket and many others do considerably more environmental damage.





colinmd said:


> Well that's one view put out by the likes of LACS, here's another view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





colinmd said:


> Well that's one view put out by the likes of LACS, here's another view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They appear to have affiliation to the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust(an oxymoron, as is the BASC of which I was once a member when I knew no better) so  not as impartial as they might seem.

1. Grouse shoots DO drain moorland.You can see recent drainage activity above Hebden Bridge(my mate lives there), where the locals are battling the Estates after catastrophic flooding aided by fast run off from the moors. Sphagnum bogs and the resulting peat that is formed are also a valuable carbon sink as well as a reservoir for rainfall.

2. Massive "controlled burning" quite often becomes the opposite resulting in the peat catching fire,it also releases large quantities of CO2,and it also reduces  biodiversity.Areas freshly burned enable fast run off of water before regrowth begins.

3. Many thousands of Mountain Hares are shot every year as they carry ticks that can infest Grouse chicks.They evolved together on the moorland and it is only now Grouse numbers are at such inflated levels that it is perceived as a problem.

4. Deaths of Golden Eagles,Harriers,Peregrines and other raptors are at an all time high,with shooting, trapping and poison being employed.Clusters of deaths corresponding with the locations of Sporting Estates. Due to pressure from customers,Yorkshire Water have been reviewing their rental agreements with moorland shoots because of this,the Scottish Parliament is also reviewing licencing of same.

4. I could go on to list the environmental damage caused by releasing 37m Pheasants and 10m Partridge into the environment every year and the awful consequent toll on our resident wildlife that goes with it,not to mention RTA's, but I can't be arsed as nobody cares and I'm halfway through my 4 yearly repeat of the Sopranos and it's time.


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## witzend (Sep 19, 2020)

John H said:


> It may well be that the vast majority of Swedes





in h said:


> They didn't outsource testing,


Well I'm blowed never realised there was 2 of  them H's


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2020)

korky said:


> They appear to have affiliation to the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust(an oxymoron, as is the BASC of which I was once a member when I knew no better) so  not as impartial as they might seem.


They make no pretence to be anything else, set up to counter the lies put out by LACS and Mark Avery. 



> 1. Grouse shoots DO drain moorland.You can see recent drainage activity above Hebden Bridge(my mate lives there), where the locals are battling the Estates after catastrophic flooding aided by fast run off from the moors. Sphagnum bogs and the resulting peat that is formed are also a valuable carbon sink as well as a reservoir for rainfall.
> 
> 2. Massive "controlled burning" quite often becomes the opposite resulting in the peat catching fire,it also releases large quantities of CO2,and it also reduces  biodiversity.Areas freshly burned enable fast run off of water before regrowth begins.











						Craig Whittaker: Banning grouse hunting would not prevent floods
					

MANY people will be aware of the opinion circulating around the Calder Valley that one of the big factors that contributed to the horrendous flooding at Christmas was the grouse moor on the Walshaw Estate above Hebden Bridge.




					www.yorkshirepost.co.uk
				






> 3. Many thousands of Mountain Hares are shot every year as they carry ticks that can infest Grouse chicks.They evolved together on the moorland and it is only now Grouse numbers are at such inflated levels that it is perceived as a problem.


 I find the shooting of Mountains Hares distasteful, but as grouse are at low numbers in last few years I don't get your post



> 4. Deaths of Golden Eagles,Harriers,Peregrines and other raptors are at an all time high,with shooting, trapping and poison being employed.Clusters of deaths corresponding with the locations of Sporting Estates. Due to pressure from customers,Yorkshire Water have been reviewing their rental agreements with moorland shoots because of this,the Scottish Parliament is also reviewing licencing of same.


Yes it appears a couple of shooting estates are doing illegal things, but AFAIK they are just a tiny proportion of the total.



> 4. I could go on to list the environmental damage caused by releasing 37m Pheasants and 10m Partridge into the environment every year and the awful consequent toll on our resident wildlife that goes with it,not to mention RTA's, but I can't be arsed as nobody cares and I'm halfway through my 4 yearly repeat of the Sopranos and it's time.


As I posted earlier, I'm not much in favour of Pheasant shooting, but I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth, we have a nabouring farm which runs shoots, and a short distance away an estate which is into pheasants big time, in both cases it's very noticeable how much the wildlife gains from pheasant cover, just this afternoon we where watching flocks of birds in our nabours pheasant cover, and Kites and Buzzards overhead, the estate was the release area for Kites in our area, it was kept very quiet at the time, but the result was that we now have Kites as a everyday common sight.


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## mark61 (Sep 19, 2020)

TimSands said:


> This is utter nonsense and has been knocking around for months. Conspiracy theories are fundamentally dangerous as they prevent people making sensible decisions



Calling anything you don’t believe or don’t want to believe a conspiracy is what stops people making sensible decisions. The theory that Cov19 was manufactured is valid, as are the other theories of its origin.


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## Toffeecat (Sep 19, 2020)

The point we seem to forget is why was gathering of people to shoot grouse allowed in the middle of a pandemic. Thats the question. Not if its good or bad. Why was it allowed. If theres a reason why it was exempt then fine. But we need to know why.


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2020)

Toffeecat said:


> The point we seem to forget is why was gathering of people to shoot grouse allowed in the middle of a pandemic. Thats the question. Not if its good or bad. Why was it allowed. If theres a reason why it was exempt then fine. But we need to know why.


Because it's a licenced organised sport, and as I mentioned when actually shooting the pegs are at the very least 25yds apart, compared to football, cricket and indoor sports a minor risk of spreading CV-19, unlike the bowls club in south wales who went on a coach trip and pub crawl "just like they do every year", which resulted in a hot spot.


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## colinm (Sep 19, 2020)

Anyway more to the point, gf took the youngest for her swimming lesson after receiving assurances  from the pool as to how well their social distancing measures where working, she was so 'disappointed' with the behaviour of others with their kids she might not go again.


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## trevskoda (Sep 19, 2020)

The covid spike has went through the roof here in n ireland and dublin down south is in semi lockdown,i knew as soon as schools and students went back all hell would be let loose,hope they shut the pubs as thats where some of the trouble is,many with back door operations going on,police are one of there biggest customers.


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## witzend (Sep 20, 2020)

Toffeecat said:


> The point we seem to forget is why was gathering of people to shoot grouse allowed in the middle of a pandemic. Thats the question. Not if its good or bad. Why was it allowed. If theres a reason why it was exempt then fine. But we need to know why.


Guess if their allowing caravan shows with 100's turning up and  encouraging people to eat out allowing pubs schools to open  perhaps 10 shooters + beaters & loaders max 30 standing in pairs at least 30mtrs apart up on the moors isn't to bad


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 20, 2020)

witzend said:


> Guess if their allowing caravan shows with 100's turning up and  encouraging people to eat out allowing pubs schools to open  perhaps 10 shooters + beaters & loaders max 30 standing in pairs at least 30mtrs apart up on the moors isn't to bad



Nail on head.

It's the conflict between trying to keep businesses and the economy going and stopping the spread of the infection.

The latter is almost impossible task, and the former will cause problems depending on which businesses the government target next in their (desperate) attempt to keep the virus in check without having to shut businesses down completely as in the initial lockdown.

Major headache and also impossible to control without fully operational test & trace, if what they've been telling us is true.


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## Monckyman (Sep 20, 2020)

Your lives are ticking away.
Your normal health services are not being provided.
The chance you may die from whatever this virus is, is 1 in 2 million.
That’s if you’re in the vulnerable bracket.
The figures from the government have never been believable, and their actions make no sense.
Believe what you want, they’re going to take advantage to make us worse off if we let them.


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## korky (Sep 20, 2020)

Just read this on the web so it must be true. "Sprained ankles were part of a plot by left-wingers to spread panic and confusion as a precursor to revolution. Doctors who diagnose sprained ankles should be struck off."


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## John H (Sep 20, 2020)

The rights and wrongs of grouse shooting are beside the point. The point is that if people perceive that some groups are being treated differently to others then it makes it almost impossible to enforce any rules. It is the Cummings argument all over again


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## T4Lyn (Sep 21, 2020)

John H said:


> The rights and wrongs of grouse shooting are beside the point. The point is that if people perceive that some groups are being treated differently to others then it makes it almost impossible to enforce any rules. It is the Cummings argument all over again


And can we argue that we only broke the law in "a limited and specific" manner or is that only regarding international law?


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## John H (Sep 21, 2020)

T4Lyn said:


> And can we argue that we only broke the law in "a limited and specific" manner or is that only regarding international law?



"Your honour, my client should be found not guilty because, by murdering his wife, he only broke the law in a limited and very specific way following a lifetime of obeying the rules"


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## Toffeecat (Sep 21, 2020)

Honest m,Lord my client put the wellies on the sheep to stop its little hooves getting damp. What is alleged he did after that was only done in a specific and limited way.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 21, 2020)

Toffeecat said:


> Honest m,Lord my client put the wellies on the sheep to stop its little hooves getting damp. What is alleged he did after that was only done in a specific and limited way.



Please don't ban me for innuendo!


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## zzr1400tim (Sep 21, 2020)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Please don't ban me for innuendo!


a great 70's film! Richard Roundtree as private detective John Shaft.. right on!!! I remember seeing it at the pictures


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## korky (Sep 21, 2020)

Damning indictment of wildlife crime on Yorks. moors on CH4 news tonight. Even Queenie considering reviewing leasing of her land to shooting fraternity.
Suspect pheasants at Sandringham may wish they were grouse now.


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## trevskoda (Sep 21, 2020)

Well my daughter got the cov test today so we are holding for the call, meantime our gov is putting us on full lockdown from 6pm tmo as the non- mask partygoers and general numpties have landed us back to sq one.


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 21, 2020)

korky said:


> Damning indictment of wildlife crime on Yorks. moors on CH4 news tonight. Even Queenie considering reviewing leasing of her land to shooting fraternity.
> Suspect pheasants at Sandringham may wish they were grouse now.



Just watched it. Not good.


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## Toffeecat (Sep 21, 2020)

Utterly shocking but not suprising. Larsen Traps. Not good.


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