# Speed limits



## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

My son in law has just received a speeding ticket through the post. He was doing 71 in a 70mph limit, but the vehicle he was driving (3.5 tonne commercial) has a limit of 60mph on dual carriageways.

So, just a reminder, especially for those with larger motorhomes of what the limits are for various sized/types of vehicles;

Speed limits - GOV.UK

I'm not sure why there is a difference between commercial vehicles and motorhomes though? But, them's the rules!


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## izwozral (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks Rob, I wasn't aware of the 50mph on single carriageways, I thought it was 60. Oops.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

izwozral said:


> Thanks Rob, I wasn't aware of the 50mph on single carriageways, I thought it was 60. Oops.



Bear in mind that is unladen weight Ral, so you should be able to do 60 in yours?


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## izwozral (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> Bear in mind that is unladen weight Ral, so you should be able to do 60 in yours?



Now I am confused, what do you mean by unladen weight Rob? We are usually fully loaded with all the usual stuff needed and not needed.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

izwozral said:


> Now I am confused, what do you mean by unladen weight Rob? We are usually fully loaded with all the usual stuff needed and not needed.



You will have a gross weight (mine's 3500kg) which means fully loaded with passengers, gear and fuel etc.) or an unladen weight, which is just the vehicle.

Check your VIN plate Ral, should have the weights listed.


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## izwozral (Aug 8, 2017)

Thanks Rob, I get it now. DOH! Having a blonde moment, in a bald sort of way.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

izwozral said:


> Thanks Rob, I get it now. DOH! Having a blonde moment, in a bald sort of way.



They do make it confusing though, referring to Motorhomes by their unladen weight and goods vehicles by their gross weights! :rolleyes2:


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> You will have a gross weight (mine's 3500kg) which means fully loaded with passengers, gear and fuel etc.) or an unladen weight, which is just the vehicle.
> 
> Check your VIN plate Ral, should have the weights listed.



Never seen a MH with it's unladen weight stamped on the VIN.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Never seen a MH with it's unladen weight stamped on the VIN.



You're probably right!

Registration document? (I'll go and have a look!)


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> You're probably right!
> 
> Registration document? (I'll go and have a look!)



My V5 has a 'mass in service' weight of 2085 - is that it?

Perhaps they should standardise these terms??


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## Byronic (Aug 8, 2017)

I've forgotten the details but there's some strange anomaly for commercial vehicle 
speeds, 3050kgs unladen comes into it, somebody on the site will elucidate soon enough?


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

Byronic said:


> I've forgotten the details but there's some strange anomaly for commercial vehicle
> speeds, 3050kgs unladen comes into it, somebody on the site will elucidate soon enough?



It's in the link I posted, but the 3050 anomaly seems to be for motorhomes rather than commercials?


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## big tom (Aug 8, 2017)

***** said:


> Regarding speeding, don't forget the opt out for DVLA not to supply other Countries with driver details has now expired!
> Driving offence abroad | AA



Is this a Reciprocal arrangement


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> My V5 has a 'mass in service' weight of 2085 - is that it?
> 
> Perhaps they should standardise these terms??



Not really the unladen weight, but it will do.


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> It's in the link I posted, but the 3050 anomaly seems to be for motorhomes rather than commercials?



The story I heard was that back in the mists of time MH's where classed as a now defunct class 'heavy motor car'


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> Perhaps they should standardise these terms??



An odd thing on my van, I have a CoC from Globecar which gives 'unladen weight' (translated from German), on weighing the van it became obvious that it was actually the MIRO.


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> My V5 has a 'mass in service' weight of 2085 - is that it?
> 
> Perhaps they should standardise these terms??





colinmd said:


> Not really the unladen weight, but it will do.



Just double checking, that is a very low figure for a 3.5t gross vehicle, what van do you have?


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Just double checking, that is a very low figure for a 3.5t gross vehicle, what van do you have?



It's a 2012 Renault Master 2.3 dci LWB extra high top. (PVC)


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Just double checking, that is a very low figure for a 3.5t gross vehicle, what van do you have?



Should be about right as Renault give a payload around 1400kg for the Panel van.


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> It's a 2012 Renault Master 2.3 dci LWB extra high top. (PVC)





Robmac said:


> Should be about right as Renault give a payload around 1400kg for the Panel van.



That will most probably be the weight before conversion to a MH, your unladen weight will be a lot higher now.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> That will most probably be the weight before conversion to a MH, your unladen weight will be a lot higher now.



This is what confuses me.

I bought the van with an MIRO as it left the factory, so, do the fittings I have added add to the MIRO, or count as part of the payload? 

If I have added to the MIRO, do I need to get my V5 changed?


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## runnach (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> This is what confuses me.
> 
> I bought the van with an MIRO as it left the factory, so, do the fittings I have added add to the MIRO, or count as part of the payload?
> 
> If I have added to the MIRO, do I need to get my V5 changed?


 All a technicality but one you could get into trouble for , eg 3500 -2100 gives 1400 kg capacity ...if now weighs 2300 unladen , the new payload is 1200 kgs ..the see saw shifts that's all but needs to be recorded.

From memory MH over 3050 kgs MIRO are subject to the lower speed limits ..

Channa


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 8, 2017)

Rob, i think you`ll find that whilst your van is still registered as a Van then the *Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)* will apply.

i.e.  30 (48)	50 (80)	60 (96)	70 (112)      60 (96) if articulated or towing a trailer    ...............    respectively

Once and or if it gets re-registered as a Motor caravan then the  *Motorhomes or motor caravans (not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)* will apply.

i.e.  30 (48)	60 (96)	70 (112)	70 (112)    ......................   respectively.


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## mark61 (Aug 8, 2017)

Even the heaviest of light transporters, the 5 tonne versions of usual panel vans, most will be under the 3.05 tonnes mark. I would imagine that figures mostly for light trucks, 7.5 tonnes converted to motorhomes. Would be better if they stuck to one weight though, i.e. GVW.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

channa said:


> ............From memory MH over 3050 kgs MIRO are subject to the lower speed limits ..
> 
> Channa



Correct Andy, this is what concerns me.

Also the Gov website reads Motorhomes or motor caravans (not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)  Where does the maximum come in for unladen weight?

And, say I have a table weighing 20kg, which is removable, would that not be payload? :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

It could be a very fine line between getting a speeding ticket or not? (If they were bothered enough to look into it that far!)


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

Wooie1958 said:


> Rob, i think you`ll find that whilst your van is still registered as a Van then the *Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)* will apply.
> 
> i.e.  30 (48)	50 (80)	60 (96)	70 (112)      60 (96) if articulated or towing a trailer    ...............    respectively
> 
> ...



It is registered as a motocaravan now Graham.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> It is registered as a motocaravan now Graham.




In that case then Rob the higher speed limits will apply and you can prove that with the V5 and the DVLA data base.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

Wooie1958 said:


> In that case then Rob the higher speed limits will apply and you can prove that with the V5 and the DVLA data base.



That's what I can't understand though Graham. If all of the fittings I have put in make it weigh more than 3050kg, then surely the lower limits apply?

But, I always assumed (possibly wrongly) that the fittings would be part of the payload rather than the unladen weight?


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm on my phone, so excuse my brevity.
Unladen and miro are not the same.
There are a couple of grey areas, but unladen is with all the bits which make it a camper and are fixed.
Miro generaly includes fuel driver, water etc.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> I'm on my phone, so excuse my brevity.
> Unladen and miro are not the same.
> There are a couple of grey areas, but unladen is with all the bits which make it a camper and are fixed.
> Miro generaly includes fuel driver, water etc.



That explains it (I think).

It does make me wonder though, how many 3.5k motorhomes are sticking to the wrong speed limits unknowing that their fitted out vans exceed 3050, (given how many posts we have seen on this forum about vans having virtually no payload).

I suppose the bigger worry there though would be exceeding the GVW with passengers, dogs, water etc.

I must revisit the weighbridge!


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## mark61 (Aug 8, 2017)

Need to double check, but as far as I know MIRO is a term applied to MH's and towing caravans, as it leaves the factory. Some convertors allow more within that weight, i.e., gas bottle, water, and it appears some allow for very little, not even leisure battery.

I don't recall seeing MIRO applied to commercials, but could very well be wrong.
Commercials are sold with an unladen weight, which usually allows a certain amount for a driver, and say a fuel tank 75% full. Probably varies with manufacturers too.


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## colinm (Aug 8, 2017)

mark61 said:


> Need to double check, but as far as I know MIRO is a term applied to MH's and towing caravans, as it leaves the factory. Some convertors allow more within that weight, i.e., gas bottle, water, and it appears some allow for very little, not even leisure battery.
> 
> I don't recall seeing MIRO applied to commercials, but could very well be wrong.
> Commercials are sold with an unladen weight, which usually allows a certain amount for a driver, and say a fuel tank 75% full. Probably varies with manufacturers too.



Unladen in this case doesn't include driver, fuel et al.


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## Byronic (Aug 8, 2017)

When getting weighed, well worth weighing the load on each axle,
particularly if you reckon you're running near MAM. You can be ok
overall but perhaps over on an individual axle.


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## mark61 (Aug 8, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Unladen in this case doesn't include driver, fuel et al.



Yes,  thats true.


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## Wooie1958 (Aug 8, 2017)

This is the simple explanation   what is miro weight - Google Search


Over and out     :wave:


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## big tom (Aug 8, 2017)

big tom said:


> Is this a Reciprocal arrangement



No thought not.

British motorists on the continent face £640 speeding fines from today


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## harrow (Aug 8, 2017)

AND ALSO,

a car based van, (vauxhall combo) is subject to the CAR speed limit NOT van speed limit

:idea::idea::idea:


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## john1974 (Aug 8, 2017)

> I must (re)visit the weighbridge!



I think we are in the same boat Rob, both have re-registered PVC's ..  I have never really known my speed limits so take the lower option..

I am guessing I need to remove everything that isn't fixed, including me, and weigh her.. if under 3050 then normal car limits apply.... ?

van is a LWB High Top boxer, 3500 Max auth Mass,,

John

I know I need to weigh her anyway in loaded trim, but have been erm.. a bit busy :O


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## mark61 (Aug 8, 2017)

john1974 said:


> I think we are in the same boat Rob, both have re-registered PVC's ..  I have never really known my speed limits so take the lower option..
> 
> I am guessing I need to remove everything that isn't fixed, including me, and weigh her.. if under 3050 then normal car limits apply.... ?
> 
> ...




Not a gambling person, but I'd put a tenner on that not being the case, your panel van has a unladen weight which is not the MIRO once converted.

On second thoughts, can I make that a fiver.


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## Gadabout2 (Aug 8, 2017)

*Missing weight plate*

Now this gives me a problem.....Just after I bought my motorhome (a 2006 Geist Matterhorn), I noticed the well in the bottom step was cracked.  It was replaced by the dealer, but he apparently did this by taking one from another of his stock (not a Matterhorn).  Unfortunately, the weight plate is attached to the step well, so mine has disappeared (presumably into someone else's van) and I have one from another model....presumably inaccurate.

How can I find out the weights applicable to my van?


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## Derekoak (Aug 8, 2017)

*Car based van*



harrow said:


> AND ALSO,
> 
> a car based van, (vauxhall combo) is subject to the CAR speed limit NOT van speed limit
> 
> :idea::idea::idea:



That is true only if the registered gross vehicle weight is 2000kg or under. Some fiat doblo vans are over and have been fined


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## GWAYGWAY (Aug 8, 2017)

If the van he was driving WEIGHS LESS THAN 2000kgs  GROSS weight.  AND  3050kgs  UNLADEN for motorhomes, empty, ie no driver. nothing, including fuel or load, then he is not guilty of that offence. The GROSS weight doesn't come into it is the totally unladen weight that counts, strip all the unnecessary bits out and weigh it if he is lucky it might squeeze below.. It is a throwback to older regulations get a weighbridge ticket before converting it to a  registered motorhome


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

GWAYGWAY said:


> If the van he was driving WEIGHS LESS THAN 2000kgs.  or 3050kgs for motorhomes, empty, ie no driver. nothing, including fuel or load, then he is not guilty of that offence. The GROSS weight doesn't come into it is the totally unladen weight that counts, strip all the unnecessary bits out and weigh it if he is lucky it might squeeze below.. It is a throwback to older regulations



If you are talking about my son in law's van (Sprinter flatbed), it comes under Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight) 

So I'm afraid he is guilty as charged.


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## GWAYGWAY (Aug 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> If you are talking about my son in law's van (Sprinter flatbed), it comes under Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
> 
> So I'm afraid he is guilty as charged.



Yes I put it down wrongly 2000kgs is gross weight for commercials, although I used to get overtaken by Sprinter of  Yodel doing 100mph on the A2, they never got stopped as far as I ever saw.
I am just OK as my ML I is 2970 absolutely empty of every thing not on the MIRO and a new gross of 4200kgs so until next year I am fat and happy, but I rarely want to go at 60 on single carriageways as I am too tightfisted to pay for excess fuel usage.


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## Robmac (Aug 8, 2017)

GWAYGWAY said:


> .................. I used to get overtaken by Sprinter of  Yodel doing 100mph on the A2, they never got stopped as far as I ever saw.



I would have said that was probably him!

But he doesn't drive a Yodel van.


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## stonedaddy (Aug 9, 2017)

*Coaches*

No matter how fast you go on a motorway. It could be by car, motor-home, motorbike, jet-ski, tiger-moth. Do 30 mph, 60mph, 80mph. 120mph you always got a Wallace Arnold Leyland Leopard creeping past. You don't see them anymore but they was always in the fast lane. 


Wallace Arnold - Wikipedia

Just thought id'e throw that useless bit of information in.
.... Tom ....


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

stonedaddy said:


> No matter how fast you go on a motorway. It could be by car, motor-home, motorbike, jet-ski, tiger-moth. Do 30 mph, 60mph, 80mph. 120mph you always got a Wallace Arnold Leyland Leopard creeping past. You don't see them anymore but they was always in the fast lane.
> 
> 
> Wallace Arnold - Wikipedia
> ...



This forum would collapse without snippets like that Tom.

As would the Earth!


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2017)

Commercial vehicles are subject to lower limits, in general these refer to the MAM,  which is on the plate, so that is covered. The exception to this is MH's with a unladen weight below 3050kg, pretty much every one of these will have a different unladen weight, and this can change over time with what the owner decides to 'bolt' to it. I for one am happy to weight the van once and just keep a mental note of any extras i've added without having to go throu the redtape.


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

I have my own portable scales, so once I have finished adding stuff to the van, I shall take it to the weighbridge, get the van weighed (total, and rear and front axles) and keep the ticket in a plastic sleeve.

I shall then take the same weights on my own scales and see how they compare, last time, there was only a couple of Kg difference between mine and the weighbridge. I shall then take a reading each time I add new stuff. This will also help with weight distribution.


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## oldish hippy (Aug 9, 2017)

the other thing to take into account is how accurate is Speedo mine is well out as proved by two different sat navs and the flashing roadside signs that flash up your speed in a 30 mph signed area i.e. on the way to Caerphilly


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## didds (Aug 9, 2017)

UPDATE:  This is from 2011 so unless things have aletered since then I guess I Am a panel van and lower speed limits apply!  

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=117675
didds


Ok - so I've a VW T4 and the V5 says it is 

body type panel van
taxation class light goods vehicle revenue weight 1682 Kg unladen

so what does that mean for speed limits?  Cos further googling indicates stuff about transit vans being a good vehicle and so limilted to 60 - well obvs the T4 is like a Transit but it ain't...  so cold I can see be classed in thats ame bracket, so 50mph on single carriageways and 60mph on duals - but good for 70mph on Mways.

Then i read stuff like "As a "rule of thumb" any van larger than a Vauxhall Astra van will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonne" - well the T4 (2001 reg) is way bigger than a ford astra van but ain't 2 tonnes!

then there's "There are only two manufacturer-built camper vans sold in the UK: the Volkswagen California and the Mercedes-Benz Marco Polo. Both are legally allowed to drive as fast as a regular car."  The California looks pretty close to a T4. Though our T4 doesnt; have the raiseable roof thing.

*sigh*

ref:  
Van and pickup speed limits explained | Parkers
Know Your Speed Limits


ta

didds


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

didds said:


> Ok - so I've a VW T4 and the V5 says it is
> 
> body type panel van
> taxation class light goods vehicle
> ...



If It's not registered as a motorhome, and it is not a car derived van, then I would say it is a Goods vehicles (not more than 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)

So 50 on a B road, 60 on a Dual carriageway and 70 on a motorway.


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## Canalsman (Aug 9, 2017)

colinmd said:


> The exception to this is MH's with a unladen weight below 3050kg, pretty much every one of these will have a different unladen weight, and this can change over time with what the owner decides to 'bolt' to it.



That isn't correct - the unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle ex works not what it is now with bits added to it.

So if it's less than 3,050 Kg it will always be thus ...


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> That isn't correct - the unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle ex works not what it is now with bits added to it.
> 
> So if it's less than 3,050 Kg it will always be thus ...



This is what has confused me all along Chris. 

Especially important to know what is what for a self converted van, and I still don't know for sure! :rolleyes2:


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## Canalsman (Aug 9, 2017)

I agree - finding that value is not easy. Probably the best authority is the manufacturer of your vehicle ...

For self converted I would suggest weighing the vehicle post conversion but with it unladen. Get a weighbridge ticket and photograph the vehicle to prove its state of fit out at the time.


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> I agree - finding that value is not easy. Probably the best authority is the manufacturer of your vehicle ...
> 
> For self converted I would suggest weighing the vehicle post conversion but with it unladen. Get a weighbridge ticket and photograph the vehicle to prove its state of fit out at the time.



I'm not really worried Chris, I'm pretty sure I would get away with the higher speed limits in my van anyway.

But, for interests sake, I looked at the Renault brochure, and they list the *kerb weight*.

So now we have;

Kerb Weight
Mass in service weight.
MIRO weight.
Unladen weight.

All of which would appear to be pretty much the same thing, except they aren't! :rolleyes2:


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> For self converted I would suggest weighing the vehicle post conversion but with it unladen. Get a weighbridge ticket and photograph the vehicle to prove its state of fit out at the time.



Not a bad idea Chris, if going by the Gov definition of unladen weight on which I suppose the speeding law is based upon;

Vehicle weights explained - GOV.UK


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## wildebus (Aug 9, 2017)

didds said:


> UPDATE:  This is from 2011 so unless things have aletered since then I guess I Am a panel van and lower speed limits apply!
> 
> http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=117675
> didds
> ...


...."well obvs the T4 is like a Transit but it ain't" ... Well, the T4 is exactly like a transit in that it is a purpose-built light van

""any van larger than a Vauxhall Astra van will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonne" - well the T4 (2001 reg) is way bigger than a ford astra van but ain't 2 tonnes!""... well, the T4 has a gross weight as a minimum just under 2.5t (the lightest 800 Special model)

There are "car" versions of the T4, but they are van-derived cars, and NOT car-derived vans - that is an important distinction for speed limits and can catch out drivers of vehicles such as Renault Kangoos (the MPV car version is based on the van, the van is not based on the MPV)

Anyways, the T4 Panel Van is just that, a Panel Van, so is limited to the commercial limits.  IF you were to convert it (and reregister it) to a camper, then you will be able to drive at car speeds.  Also, as an aside, if your 2001 T4 is a diesel, then by converting you will be able to drive into the London LEZ for free rather then having to pay £100 a day for the privilege, as well as getting better rates on some toll bridges.


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## Robmac (Aug 9, 2017)

wildebus said:


> ...."well obvs the T4 is like a Transit but it ain't" ... Well, the T4 is exactly like a transit in that it is a purpose-built light van
> 
> ""any van larger than a Vauxhall Astra van will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonne" - well the T4 (2001 reg) is way bigger than a ford astra van but ain't 2 tonnes!""... well, the T4 has a gross weight as a minimum just under 2.5t (the lightest 800 Special model)
> 
> ...



Some good points!

(I'm getting the 'ang of this now)


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> That isn't correct - the unladen weight is the weight of the vehicle ex works not what it is now with bits added to it.
> 
> So if it's less than 3,050 Kg it will always be thus ...



So you think a ex works tow bar bolted on or a solar panel will not be counted as part of unladen weight? I think you will find they are.


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2017)

didds said:


> Then i read stuff like "As a "rule of thumb" any van larger than a Vauxhall Astra van will have a gross weight in excess of 2 tonne" - well the T4 (2001 reg) is way bigger than a ford astra van but ain't 2 tonnes!
> 
> didds



Off the top of my head I would guess that your T4 is 2,500kg, and it will have a data plate with it on.


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## wildebus (Aug 9, 2017)

I know it is not part of the process or rules but ...

IMO, part of the conversion and re-classification process should include a mandatory visit to a weighbridge to get an official ticket which is then supplied to the DVLA along with the photos and waffle for reclassification and a new "unladen weight" entered in exactly the same way that the V5 is updated in the case of a GVW replating.
It is ridiculous to use an empty panel van weight to define the weight of a full camper conversion which could be easily be in excess of 500kg more.  It would also be of great help to the owners, many of which are totally ignorant of just how much their vehicles weigh and how little payload they have to be over the limit.


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## wildebus (Aug 9, 2017)

colinmd said:


> Off the top of my head I would guess that your T4 is 2,500kg, and it will have a data plate with it on.


the T800 Special (the economy lightweight model) were something like 2478kg and had an official payload of 800kg (hence the name), then there were 1000 and 1200 models


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## Canalsman (Aug 9, 2017)

colinmd said:


> So you think a ex works tow bar bolted on or a solar panel will not be counted as part of unladen weight? I think you will find they are.



You did refer to what the owner might choose to bolt on to the vehicle ...

That clearly is not ex works and is not part of the unladen weight defined by the manufacturer.

In any case it is in the owner's interest for the unladen weight to be as low as possible, when considering speed limits, is it not?


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> You did refer to what the owner might choose to bolt on to the vehicle ...
> 
> That clearly is not ex works and is not part of the unladen weight defined by the manufacturer.
> 
> In any case it is in the owner's interest for the unladen weight to be as low as possible, when considering speed limits, is it not?





hairydog said:


> Tow bar is, solar panel isn't.





hairydog said:


> The definition of unladen weight is such that all the van bits are included, but not the rest. Not the fuel, not the driver, not the gas bottles, not the cooker, not the leisure batteries, not the mattresses, not anything that isn't a part of the van used when driving along. So you'd possibly remove not only the contents of the wardrobe,  but also remove the wardrobe doors - and perhaps the entire wardrobe.
> The problem is that a lot of people (who should know better) confuse Mass In Running Order (MIRO) with unladen weight. They are very different, but speed limits depend on UW, not MIRO or GVW.
> What you suggest is "ridiculous" is indeed daft, but also probably technically correct.



Here is HM gov view on the matter.



> The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.
> 
> It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.



As I posted earlier, there may be some grey areas, but I would suggest that the VCA would take exception to you having to use a screwdriver or spanner and/or removing fixed wiring, as for removing the cooker or wardrobe, these are required to make it a motorhome, remove them and you are driving a plain van subject to lower limits.


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## colinm (Aug 9, 2017)

hairydog said:


> You don't use a bed, a wardrobe or a cooker when driving a motorhome on the road. Many of the components that make a van into a motor caravan are not used when driving on the road. They are part of the MIRO but not part of the UW.



IMO doesn't matter if you use them on the road, to be a motorhome it has to have certain fitments, remove them and it's not a motohome.


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## wildebus (Aug 9, 2017)

I'll throw in another "use" factoid for you all to discuss ....

If you have a motorhome which by its construction you can drive at car speeds, this is not the case all the time :idea-007:
If you have any goods for sale in the vehicle, then you are subject to commercial vehicle speed. This could easily be the case if you use your vehicle for work purposes as well as leisure, but could catch you out potentially if on the way to a car boot sale say!

This reduction does not happen in a car -  and this is the reason why I have not requested a reclassification for my T5 to a motor caravan, but happy to leave it as an MPV. Has a full conversion and is insured as a Camper with no need to reclassify (confirmed with broker and underwriter if anyone queries that  ) and full car speeds in business use 
(And being a campervan is a purpose so still remains a "Multi-Purpose Vehicle"  )


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## Derekoak (Aug 10, 2017)

*Confusion*



wildebus said:


> I'll throw in another "use" factoid for you all to discuss ....
> 
> If you have a motorhome which by its construction you can drive at car speeds, this is not the case all the time :idea-007:
> If you have any goods for sale in the vehicle, then you are subject to commercial vehicle speed. This could easily be the case if you use your vehicle for work purposes as well as leisure, but could catch you out potentially if on the way to a car boot sale say!
> ...


If your t5 is not a motorhome and is over 2000kg gvw it cannot be a car (as you seem to think) it must be a van and should drive at lesser speeds? You said that yourself in an earlier post?
You also said that car derived vans are not the same as van derived cars i thought they were? and it is important to me as i drive a fiat doblo high roof mpv 1960kg gvw most used as camper car but not all. Still registered as mpv and driven for years at car speeds (only caught speeding when over those limits)


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## mark61 (Aug 10, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> If your t5 is not a motorhome and is over 2000kg gvw it cannot be a car (as you seem to think) it must be a van and should drive at lesser speeds? You said that yourself in an earlier post?
> You also said that car derived vans are not the same as van derived cars i thought they were? and it is important to me as i drive a fiat doblo high roof mpv 1960kg gvw most used as camper car but not all. Still registered as mpv and driven for years at car speeds (only caught speeding when over those limits)




I think if the VW camper is on a converted Caravelle or Transporter Shuttle and whatever other names they have, it is originally registered as a car. A Transporter Kombi and the bog standard Transporter are registered as vans.
Same with the Merc, Vito van, V class car.


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## Lee (Aug 10, 2017)

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but has anyone found out whether speed camera's can detect the weight and class of a vehicle.
Surely if the can't then the limits will be set for a car and therefore won't detect larger vehicles over the speed limit.


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## colinm (Aug 10, 2017)

Lee said:


> I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but has anyone found out whether speed camera's can detect the weight and class of a vehicle.
> Surely if the can't then the limits will be set for a car and therefore won't detect larger vehicles over the speed limit.



Some can, the strech of a14 between a1 and cambridge has them, also I would suggest the OP indicates another area as a ticket wouldn't normaly be issued for 71mph, also there are manned speed cameras


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## jeffmossy (Aug 10, 2017)

Here is another rule that I see broken every day, cars towing caravans and cars or vans towing trailers in the outside lane   

[h=3]Rule 265[/h]The right-hand lane of a motorway with three or more lanes *MUST NOT* be used (except in prescribed circumstances) if you are driving


any vehicle drawing a trailer
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 3.5 tonnes but not exceeding 7.5 tonnes, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter
a goods vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight exceeding 7.5 tonnes constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver
a passenger vehicle with a maximum laden weight not exceeding 7.5 tonnes which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver, which is required to be fitted with a speed limiter.


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## Kontiki (Aug 10, 2017)

On our second day in France we were driving on the free motorway to Boulogne taking the exit before the toll section. It is a downhill road for some reason vehicles over 3.5 ton are supposed to be in the left hand lane, trouble was there were cones preventing you & it was just a single lane carriage way. Speed limit for vehicles was 70kph but for over 3.5 ton it was 50kph. I got flashed by the camera when I checked with my Roadhawk dash cam I was actually doing 63kph so if I do get a ticket I can't complain, I was slowing down but as it was a single road I had quite a trail of cars & wagons behind. I don't know if I was flashed because of the size of vehicle as by rights I wasn't supposed to be in that lane but there was no choice. I wonder if they do check the vehicle weight with the DVLA? My van is plated at 3.7t but could easily be plated as 3.5t or less.
One thing for certain is I stick to the speed limits as much as possible, I have 2 sat navs that warn me if I go over & the wife as an extra check. Lots of different type of cameras & often not as visible as ours.


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## wildebus (Aug 10, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> If your t5 is not a motorhome and is over 2000kg gvw it cannot be a car (as you seem to think) it must be a van and should drive at lesser speeds? You said that yourself in an earlier post?
> You also said that car derived vans are not the same as van derived cars i thought they were? and it is important to me as i drive a fiat doblo high roof mpv 1960kg gvw most used as camper car but not all. Still registered as mpv and driven for years at car speeds (only caught speeding when over those limits)



I don't "think" it is a car, I "know" it is a car . I also have the advantage over you of having the V5C for it which happens to state "Diesel Car" on it 
Car derived vans Vs. Van derived cars?  No, again it IS as I said... they are seen as different. The difference for speed limits is a car-derived van can do same limits as a car, but a van that has happened to spawn a car version is stuck at van limits.
A van derived car however is a car (that is what my T5 is) and can travel at car speeds. If your doblo is registered as an MPV, it will be a car legally.





mark61 said:


> I think if the VW camper is on a converted Caravelle or Transporter Shuttle and whatever other names they have, it is originally registered as a car. A Transporter Kombi and the bog standard Transporter are registered as vans.
> Same with the Merc, Vito van, V class car.


Correct.
The Shuttle and Caravelles are Cars. The Transporters are Vans. The Kombis are a bit weird... it seems usually they are registered as Vans, but very occasionally as Cars. They also often fall into the "dual purpose" category if someone argues hard enough when they get a ticket (last bit for info. I don't have a kombi so never needed to argue the point).


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## Derekoak (Aug 10, 2017)

*Still confused and i have an excuse*



wildebus said:


> I don't "think" it is a car, I "know" it is a car . I also have the advantage over you of having the V5C for it which happens to state "Diesel Car" on it
> Car derived vans Vs. Van derived cars?  No, again it IS as I said... they are seen as different. The difference for speed limits is a car-derived van can do same limits as a car, but a van that has happened to spawn a car version is stuck at van limits.
> A van derived car however is a car (that is what my T5 is) and can travel at car speeds. If your doblo is registered as an MPV, it will be a car legally.
> 
> ...



So looking a bit like a van with windows added and with i believe the doblo van preceeding the mpv version,  a doblo mpv is a van derived car which for speedlimit purposes is, like your t5, seen as a car, just as car derived van is if below 2000kg. Can you give me an example of a van that has just happened to spawn a car version? How is it different to my doblo?
 Are you saying that like your, well over 2000kg t5, fiat could make an over 2000kg version of the doblo mpv but has not yet?


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## Deleted member 52918 (Aug 10, 2017)

Another interesting little point is that HGV's over 7.5 ton maximum laden weight are restricted to 50 mph on single carriageways (where national speed limit applies) & 60 mph on duellers & motorways in England & Wales.

But if you're in Scotland, then it's 40 mph on single carriageways (W N S L A's), 50 mph on duellers & 60 mph on motorways.

I don't know what it is in Northern & southern Ireland.

I'm still thinking about talking to the HGV drivers boss, after he nearly caused a pile up by trying to stop me overtaking him. when I realised that he was an a--hole & was accelerating past 60 mph there was nothing for it but to thank my 40 odd years of experience which means I always put the peddle to the metal to get buy as fast as I can, so I was past him way before the oncoming traffic got near enough to cause a problem!

My dash cam did a very good job of recording it & the idiot blowing his horn, I suppose he thinks he's king of the road & none shall pass!!
Got his reg number & the name on the side of his door:ninja::ninja::ninja:.

Wonderful things, dash cams!

Phill


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## colinm (Aug 10, 2017)

hairydog said:


> What do you think the words "used on the road" mean? Not the beds or the cooker, that's for certain. They're only used when not on the roads.*



For a van to be reclassified as a MH it has to have certain things which are PERMANENTLY FIXED, these include such things as the cooker.


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## mark61 (Aug 10, 2017)

There are unladen weights, unladen weights, and there are MIRO. Unladen weights for HMCE are different from unladen weights advertised by manufactures, they tend to allow for fuel, an amount for driver etc.
Which unladen weight is used for the speed limit I have no idea. MIRO is the weight of a MH or caravan with no personal effects,a generalised weight given to a standard model as it leaves the factory, so MIRA is the weight of an unladen Motorhome but clearly not the unladen weight of the vehicle the MH is based on. 
I think what you are discussing is if the speed limit is based on the unladen weight of the original vehicle, or the unladen weight of the unladen motorhome. I'm coming round to thinking it may be the later,(as already said, it's not a MH without the fittings) but I don't know, and I think it's best as a grey area,


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## colinm (Aug 10, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Yes, they have to be fixed, but their weight does not have to be included in the calculation of Unladen Weight.
> I don't understand why this is difficult to understand.
> After all, you need fuel in the tank, but people don't have a problem understanding its weight isn't included in UW.



Fuel is something that goes in and out a vehicle, the parts which turn a van into a MH don't.


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## john1974 (Aug 10, 2017)

> the ...... weight of the unladen motorhome.



is what I am thinking too..  

as said previously by others, I may weigh the bugger with nothing in (which I haven't bolted down), keep the piece of paper, and let that be an end to all this, lol

Gas cylinder, spare wheel, tow bar - may as well stay in.. I cant be arsed to take those off, again


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## Canalsman (Aug 10, 2017)

Of course there's a simple answer.

Adhere to the speed limits for vehicles over 3,050Kg ...

50mph on a single carriageway is fast enough for me, and I never drive faster than 60mph anyway in the interests of saving fuel.

Who needs to be in a hurry?


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## vwalan (Aug 10, 2017)

POI Admin said:


> Of course there's a simple answer.
> 
> Adhere to the speed limits for vehicles over 3,050Kg ...
> 
> ...



you drive that fast ?
why?
the speed limmits are maximum . you can drive alot slower . 
enjoy the journey . look at the scenery , every gateway is a new picture. 
in our game we get extra points for every vehicle you have join the line behind you. 
let the trucks and buses pass they are working . 
have a good one , slowly , slowly .


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## Deleted member 52918 (Aug 10, 2017)

vwalan said:


> you drive that fast ?
> why?
> the speed limmits are maximum . you can drive alot slower .
> enjoy the journey . look at the scenery , every gateway is a new picture.
> ...



Normally vwalan, I like what you say, but in this case I believe that we'll have to differ.

If you're not in a hurry why hold up people who need to be somewhere? it only creates frustration which could cause an accident!

Phill


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## grumpyaudeman (Aug 10, 2017)

Just got done in Germany 64 in a 50 kl limit 25 Euros they love radar traps like the Italians love ropey roads and tunnels


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## wildebus (Aug 11, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> So looking a bit like a van with windows added and with i believe the doblo van preceeding the mpv version,  a doblo mpv is a van derived car which for speedlimit purposes is, like your t5, seen as a car, just as car derived van is if below 2000kg. Can you give me an example of a van that has just happened to spawn a car version? How is it different to my doblo?
> Are you saying that like your, well over 2000kg t5, fiat could make an over 2000kg version of the doblo mpv but has not yet?




As previously said,  the Renault Kangoo is one. The Peugeot Partner might well be another. I have no idea how much they weigh and even less interest in finding out.
You are also providing yourself an example with your very own car by the sound if it.  I wouldn't know if you are right as I know nothing about or have any interest in the Fiat Doblo.  What is the polnt you are trying to make or ask? You are losing me here. 

"Seen as a car"? If the V5 says it is a car, then it is a car.  PS, There are loads of cars over >2t . 

Just to help you along ...
Car-derived vans and dual purpose vehicles - GOV.UK
From that
"If your van is a CDV, it will be recorded as such under ‘body type’ on the vehicle’s registration document (V5C). If there is any other entry under ‘body type’ the vehicle is not registered as a car derived van and will be subject to speeds lower than the national limits."


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