# Diesel scrappage scheme could be here 'in months'



## harrow (Feb 13, 2017)

Diesel scrappage scheme could be here 'in months'

Diesel scrappage scheme could be launched 'within months' | | Honest John

A scrappage scheme for diesel cars could be introduced within months to lower emissions and improve air quality - a move that threatens to take thousands of future classics off the road. The move would see drivers given cash for trading in their diesels, similar to the Government-backed scheme that revived flagging new car sales in 2009 after the credit crunch.

The previous 'bangers for cash' initiative saw 392,000 vehicles crushed in return for a discount on a brand new car. It’s not the first time a similar scheme has been suggested for oil burners. Former Mayor of London Boris Johnson called for a diesel scrappage scheme in 2014 following an air quality report.

But while media sources have continued to report the story, the Department for Transport denies such a scheme is on the way.

According to the Telegraph, transport secretary Chris Grayling reportedly told industry experts that he supports plans for a diesel scrappage scheme during a private meeting earlier this month, but that it must be properly targeted.:idea-007::idea-007::idea-007:


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## jagmanx (Feb 13, 2017)

*It is a no go*

Consider the vast number of 
Modern Coaches 
Very heavy lorries
Large Food delivery lorries
Medium and up delivery vans
Medium to small delivery vans
Motorhomes
Luxury diesel cars

Need I go on.....

Whilst petrol engines have got much better..
Dumping young to middle aged diesels is I think not an option.
Also what will happen to the "diesel lake" that will thus be created ?

I am not worried by the time it may/will be implemented I will need a new vehicle anyway !


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## mossypossy (Feb 13, 2017)

Hence the terminology. Diesel CARS.

Diesel engines are here to stay for a long time yet.
Any product you care to think of depends on diesel trucks, lorries, ships etc for transportation, even aviation fuel is delivered by diesel power.


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

It more or less HAS to be cars only, UKPLC is utterly dependent on the diesel engine for virtually everything else.

If you have a PVC or more or less any other recent motorhome it is on either the whole van or the chassis/cab from the same van basis
They cannot stop vans so are unlikely to worry about van conversions, albeit most are registered as motorhomes. Except the very smallest, virtually none are likely to be registered as cars.

With regard to access to cities, double parking fees etc, we have one major power....................don't go those who don't want us, and, therefore, don't spend any money there.................Simples!!!!:wave:


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## alcam (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> It more or less HAS to be cars only, UKPLC is utterly dependent on the diesel engine for virtually everything else.
> 
> If you have a PVC or more or less any other recent motorhome it is on either the whole van or the chassis/cab from the same van basis
> They cannot stop vans so are unlikely to worry about van conversions, albeit most are registered as motorhomes. Except the very smallest, virtually none are likely to be registered as cars.
> ...



Hardly a 'major power' in cities . I use my van to go everywhere , remote rural , small villages , small towns and major cities . Can't see my not turning up in Paris , Barcelona etc affecting the local economy ! 
Unfortunately we won't have a choice


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## Asterix (Feb 13, 2017)

If they really want to make a difference,the scheme should only be applied to people willing to buy electric cars,although it may need to wait a year or two for manufacturers to get more on the forecourts.The Tesla 3 is due soon,at 35k it's a bit pricey for most,but I'm sure cheaper ones will be in the pipeline along with more infrastructure. It seems silly to take diesels off the road,just to replace them with other fossil burners,when for the sake of another year or two,electric will get more practical and available.


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## mistericeman (Feb 13, 2017)

At the end of the day....
 A. 
 It's unlikely to happen overnight (and even then with only certain vehicles being affected) 
B.
 No one is going to hold a gun against anyone's head to force them to sell (It'll likely as not be an incentivised scheme)


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## Beemer (Feb 13, 2017)

I hope it happens soon.... cos I don't know how much longer my old Diesel Fiat Stilo will hang on.
Currently, on we buy any car, I was offered £42


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## FULL TIMER (Feb 13, 2017)

It seems the whole scheme would once again only benefit those with enough income or spare cash to be able to afford a brand new vehicle no doubt only one of the Hybrids or full electric which are no doubt very overpriced in the beginning to account for the subsidies.


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

Asterix said:


> If they really want to make a difference,the scheme should only be applied to people willing to buy electric cars,although it may need to wait a year or two for manufacturers to get more on the forecourts.The Tesla 3 is due soon,at 35k it's a bit pricey for most,but I'm sure cheaper ones will be in the pipeline along with more infrastructure. It seems silly to take diesels off the road,just to replace them with other fossil burners,when for the sake of another year or two,electric will get more practical and available.



Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.

The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!

Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:


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## Fazerloz (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.
> 
> The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!
> 
> Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:



I think I read somewhere all the major manufacturers were getting in on the installation of charge points as it wasn't happening fast enough for them. 

Don't worry there will be plenty of electric for charging points when the Gov has control of electric supplies to households through smart meters and can be prioritised to where they say.


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## Tezza (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.
> 
> The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!
> 
> Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:



would you care for me to put some facts in a reply which will show who the idiot is????

edit......well done morons.


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## Asterix (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.
> 
> The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!
> 
> Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:



I agree,it's not going to happen quickly,but it will happen,the problems will be sorted and we can look forward to a cleaner future. It's easy to come up with reasons why it can't work,but people are coming up with solutions all the time,more efficient panels and storage for starters,but most importantly I believe it's the will of the people at the heart of it all,very few people IMO would vote for maintaining the status quo.
And I REALLY want to drive one of these...


How Tesla Accelerates So Fast - P100D 0-60 Quickest in the World


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

Asterix said:


> I agree,it's not going to happen quickly,but it will happen,the problems will be sorted and we can look forward to a cleaner future. It's easy to come up with reasons why it can't work,but people are coming up with solutions all the time,more efficient panels and storage for starters,but most importantly I believe it's the will of the people at the heart of it all,very few people IMO would vote for maintaining the status quo.
> And I REALLY want to drive one of these...
> 
> 
> How Tesla Accelerates So Fast - P100D 0-60 Quickest in the World



Home charging station 11Kw
Public charging station 50Kw How much will you pay for that??????????
Tesla supercharger 150Kw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The car may well accelerate fast, but there's a good chance your wallet will empty faster!!!!

I have an OWL in my house, gives me instantaneous readings of exactly how much electricity I am using. WORST case, kettle and tumble drier simultaneously, circa 4Kw

Home charging station 11Kw, not that far away from 3 x my WORST case!!!

Yes it may happen, and perhaps will. The next thing you need to look for is a new source of LITHIUM, BTW!


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## Deleted member 967 (Feb 13, 2017)

A company in Newton Aycliffe has an HGV fleet that runs on LPG.   Not small vans but big articulated trucks, so some industry plays are opting out of diesel already.  This company however makes fuel tanks for the major truck manufactures.

I have seen other trucks claiming to run on other gasses on the road.


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## mistericeman (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Home charging station 11Kw
> Public charging station 50Kw How much will you pay for that??????????
> Tesla supercharger 150Kw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...




Google image ..."Lithium mine" 

lithium mine - Google Search


Beautifully eco isn't it .......;-)


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

John Thompson said:


> A company in Newton Aycliffe has an HGV fleet that runs on LPG.   Not small vans but big articulated trucks, so some industry plays are opting out of diesel already.  This company however makes fuel tanks for the major truck manufactures.
> 
> I have seen other trucks claiming to run on other gasses on the road.



Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?

I wondered about this when you posted it?


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## hextal (Feb 13, 2017)

Well, going by the quick degeneration of the thread, there seems to be plenty of hot air as yet unharnessed

Batteries are likely on the way to the masses, but they have some biiiiiig issues to get around before then. Outright headline performance ain't going to be an issue, look at the TT zero bikes and how they have come on in the last few years compared to the petrol bikes (albeit single laps still). I think it's going to be the more general/mundane practicalities that are the problem.

Even with quick charging it's hard to envisage a charge taking less than half an hour.  So assuming (yes im getting way ahead of things here) you were looking at something akin to ideally having all cars in the future running on batteries, and working on a, say 5 min, turnaround time at a petrol station as a comparison, you'd want significantly more charge points than petrol pumps to avoid several hour queues.

Obviously it'll be gradual, but it does get a little circular in that not many will go electric without the infrastructure to support it. But, the investment in the infrastructure will be slow without a demonstration that it will be used.  I think that is the big question mark. And, people ain't generally great with change, so there's a real inertia there.

I do also wonder what the knock on effect will be to selling the cars.  I think Tesla have been looking at, or possibly already operating, an 8 year guarantee.  However, given the substantial expense of changing the batteries when they do go I'd have thought the demand and/or sale price would be an issue. I know engines go kaput all the time, but I suspect the quality control that makes batteries so good may also be a slight Achilles heel.  Once the data comes in on when each type of battery set starts failing in the real world it may generate a perceived cut-off point for each type of vehicle, beyond which it becomes a financial issue......

Say the data demonstrates that a battery pack on a certain vehicle lasts between 6 and 8 years before needing to be swapped.  New car owners will likely not be able to sell after maybe 5 years without potentially needing to drop enough off the price that a 2nd hand buyer would have a battery covered.

As I say, just some musings on the potential day to day issues as I think the performance will likely be far less of a problem.

Edit:- charging point costs is another issue, they appear to vary from circa £1.50 per hour to around £8 for a half hour fast charge depending on the installer, the local authority etc.


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## mistericeman (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Can Diesel engines be converted to run on LPG?
> 
> I wondered about this when you posted it?



lpg


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

mistericeman said:


> lpg



Well.......................yes...........but!
Still burning diesel for the majority of the power, just using the LPG to make for, perhaps, better efficiency?

Have I misunderstood?

If not you now need 2 fuel tanks and two refuels at different pumps?


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## mistericeman (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Well.......................yes...........but!
> Still burning diesel for the majority of the power, just using the LPG to make for, perhaps, better efficiency?
> 
> Have I misunderstood?
> ...



Trouble is for a pure lpg conversion you need an ignition source to actually ignite the charge (And a drop in compression ratio) so involves usually modifying the cylinder head by fitting spark plugs ....

Question IS .....is bio diesel going to be included in the legislation ????


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## IanH (Feb 13, 2017)

mistericeman said:


> Trouble is for a pure lpg conversion you need an ignition source to actually ignite the charge (And a drop in compression ratio) so involves usually modifying the cylinder head by fitting spark plugs ....
> 
> Question IS .....is bio diesel going to be included in the legislation ????



The Cons - How Biodiesel Works | HowStuffWorks

If the above is correct, AND the aim is to reduce NoX emmisions, then...............perhaps not?


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## alcam (Feb 13, 2017)

IanH said:


> Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.
> 
> The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!
> 
> Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:



You are worth watching . The Donald is still recruiting [in case you were wondering] . 
Hope you don't mind me asking , were you a total radge before you went to Norfolk or did it just come over you when you got there ?


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 14, 2017)

John Thompson said:


> A company in Newton Aycliffe has an HGV fleet that runs on LPG.   Not small vans but big articulated trucks, so some industry plays are opting out of diesel already.  This company however makes fuel tanks for the major truck manufactures.
> 
> I have seen other trucks claiming to run on other gasses on the road.



my experience of hgv on methane cannot comment on lpg but they were rubbish frankly . when i worked at super drug ,drivers mate ,they got mabey half a dozen methane converted units to evaluate and a refueling point was fitted in the yard . what a farce they lasted what about 4 months nobody would drive them ,thats when they were running that is ,for a start off whilst cold if you revved then then you could make them backfire to the point they could blow the exhaust off ,very amusing and entertaining the backfire was like a bomb going off .lost count of the number escorted off the motorways by police because they had trouble reaching 40 mph ,no power at all  and more important the range was abysmal no long deliveries were feasible with them and they were forever breaking down ,  anyway in the end they stood in the back of the yard unused and unloved but well ridiculed ,only thing we missed was the amusement with the backfire .


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 14, 2017)

The problem with pollution is the governments own doing.
They've let the population explode, so more people who can't afford the average 35mpg of a petrol car are driving a diesel.

They've reduced the speed limits in most urban areas to 20mph thus increasing the emissions of all vehicles by about 300%.
Why, well a vehicle doing 20mph, is in a lower gear than one doing 30 & if your in the recommended gear for 20mph (2nd) your engine spins at 2000 rpm & you will take 3 mins to travel 1 mile, so this equalls 6000 rpm per mile!
But, if you were in 4th gear traveling at 30mph it will take you 2 mins at 1000 rpm to do the same distance, so this equalls 2000 rpm per mile!!

Last, the government has promoted the use of diesels for the last, at least 15 years, so when they did the figures, they discovered that because a diesel car does around twice as many miles per gallon, they aren't getting so much revenue from the sale of fuel, that they would if they were petrol!
Therefore they are looking to tax diesels off the road!

I can't wait to be able to have an electric vehicle that runs on the recently developed selenium celled batteries!!

Phill


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 14, 2017)

*General waffle, scrappage and electric vehicles...*

Last time it seemed to me that one manufacturer did vey well from the Scrappage Scheme as within an instant the new Fiat 500s were everywhere... So huge amounts of serviceable vehicles got scrapped and replacements gave foreign manufacturers a mega bonus. In that process, bearing in mind that massive amounts of pollution is generated to produce a new car and ecologically it's actually cleaner to keep an oldie running for as long as possible world air quality suffers through these schemes. That's forgetting all the tens of thousands of lorry journeys taking away these scrapped cars, then moving the resultant dismantled parts here and there and then bringing in the new ones from remote dock areas where other lorries finally take most of the scrap to be dirtily processed in China for us to buy back again in different forms... I'm sure that makes sense to someone but beyond me!

Love em or hate em electric vehicles make perfect sense to a large proportion of motorists in many ways. With one moving part in the drive motor servicing will be very cheap, motor oil and filters gone forever as of course will be exhaust systems etc etc. Millions of vehicles cover less than 20 miles a day and are idle for 23 hours out of 24. If you've not driven an electric vehicle see if you can get a test drive in a Nissan Leaf... The performance is amazing, all in silence too! As for a previous comment 'where's all the electricity going to come from' believe it or not renewables are coming on strong.. a recent quote _"Germany hit a new high in renewable energy generation. ... Power prices actually went negative for several hours, meaning commercial customers were being paid to consume electricity". ...  _

When you consider the fact that enough energy hits the world in one hour to power it for a year then eventually more and more electric vehicles must come and I'd say faster than we think. A world 'ring main' connecting solar arrays will keep the lights on and wheels turning, that too is no pipe dream. The first solar panel I bought was 135 watts and cost me about £400. Now a 235 watt panel will cost you £90 so prices are falling with demand and in turn the energy they produce  is cheaper.

It's potty that wind turbines are often switched off when their power could be used to split water for it's hydrogen, plans are afoot for that as there's huge potential for storage of a 100% clean fuel whether used in piston engines or via fuel cells for electric vehicles. But going back to diesels it's ironic that the pressure brought to bear on manufacturers to clean them up has now made the particulates so fine they are much worse than a lungful of the black stuff from an oldie.... This is of course an ideal opportunity to raise taxes so we are pushed towards new vehicles that again will produce a nice 20% lump sum of VAT... Hmmm, remember when taxes were adjusted to steer us to diesels? 

To my simple brain there's not a lot of joined up thinking going on......!

I hope I live long enough to be able to dial up an electric autonomous cab to make short trips. No driver gabbing away and no being run around the block. Private car ownership should plummet. Mind you, by then a 1 bed flat in Wales will be £3 million so we'll all be living in our campers


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 14, 2017)

if and i say if the government bring in a scrappage deal for older diesel cars are you going to scrap your older diesel and buy a new diesel thats if you can afford the outlay on a new car in the first place which basically is almost a polluting as the old one you had . weve all learned how v.w group and its other branches have been massaging the figures on emissions ,no doubt other manufacturers have been guilty of doing the same Chrysler being one it seems ,or are we going to be forced to buy a petrol version that lets face it mabey just mabey have had there emissions massaged to some degree or other ,after all we all know the fuel consumption figures they give on even the smallest most economical ones are nigh on impossible to get near  in daily use, another thing older diesels like my alhambra are capable with a modest  outlay and a quite easy conversion quite happy to run on veg oil ,as are a lot of older ones ,Mercedes being another  most if not all new diesels are not capable of this ,making my old 02 reg alahmbra potentialy with a modest outlay far more environmental friendly than even most new small petrol driven cars .then we have to take in the so called carbon footprint of that new car ,that in a couple of years somebody will find a bigger world polluting problem with ,causing the greenies to moan about something else , and the extra pollution of scrapping the thousands of old so called bangers that are mabey only slightly more polluting than the new offerings about now ,they have taken in as scrap . now for the fun daft bit ...........mabey the only real alternative is the good old horse and cart  no tax ,no mot and all you wilders out there you can fit a demountable garden shed on the cart to wild camp in ,save yourself thousands on a leaky old motor home ,you can use there waste to feed your roses and carrots and other veg we will have to grow because brexit will stop foreign workers from working our fields causing our poor destitute farmers running brand new range rovers to have to lay waste to millions of acres of land because brits wont do the job for a couple of quid a week , and the e,u will place tariffs on imported food so we cannot afford imported lettuce and tomatoes  and other foods anymore ,and then when your faithful old dobbin is old and knackered you can shoot them and chop them up and eat them  at least you will know the meat albeit tough is free from hormones and chemicals ,no chance of mad cow desiease , thats proper scrappage ,mind you there's always there methane when they backfire ,that plays havoc with the ozone layer causing global warming that will slowly cause the earth to fry ,lifting the temperature of the earth ,melting the polar ice caps ,flooding the low lying land ,wiping out johnny polar bear ,we cannot have that can we ,and giving the worlds population that will emigrate to england for free nhs care a higher risk of skin cancer ,costing our over stretched nhs billions extra . have fun i doubt our old economical polluting diesel motors have much to fear for quite a few years yet ,exept if your off for a holl in london  london


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 14, 2017)

IanH said:


> The Cons - How Biodiesel Works | HowStuffWorks
> 
> If the above is correct, AND the aim is to reduce NoX emmisions, then...............perhaps not?



I've been using a purer form of biodiesel [reclaimed waste oil] in the same vehicle for 12 years with zero problems but it is an older much more tolerant engine. Co2 neutral of course but yes it does put out a tad more Nox. As most of us no doubt know Rudolf Diesel designed his engine to run on peanut oil.


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 14, 2017)

IanH said:


> Electric will only be even close to practical when there's enough spare electricity to charge them.
> 
> The Greeniots have managed to do a double shoot in the foot, by closing perfectly viable power stations, replacing them with moronic renewables, then, just in time, electric cars come along with no spare electricity to charge them!!!!
> 
> Well done Greeniots!!!:mad2:



So does that mean that all of us that use solar panels to keep our batteries topped up for free, that have realised that once paid for we all benefit from the cleanest energy there is... are 'Greeniots'? 

A pal has a Solar Array' on his farm. I walked around it on Sunday. The gras was growing underneath the panels, birds were singing and one or two rabbits were to be seen. It was overcast and early. At the time it was silently producing 35 kw, pretty good for a modest installation. No sign of any real disruption, it didn't need a new road to be put in for access to build it. No fuel, no smoke no mess. A wind turbine 'breaks even' energy-wise in under a year. It'll last for at least 20 years again doing us all, and our kids and their kids a rather large favour. Fossil fuel power stations might help keep the lights on but they're far from good in every respect... And as for nuclear :-0 .........


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## Deleted member 967 (Feb 14, 2017)

mandrake said:


> my experience of hgv on methane cannot comment on lpg but they were rubbish frankly . when i worked at super drug ,drivers mate ,they got mabey half a dozen methane converted units to evaluate and a refueling point was fitted in the yard . what a farce they lasted what about 4 months nobody would drive them ,thats when they were running that is ,for a start off whilst cold if you revved then then you could make them backfire to the point they could blow the exhaust off ,very amusing and entertaining the backfire was like a bomb going off .lost count of the number escorted off the motorways by police because they had trouble reaching 40 mph ,no power at all  and more important the range was abysmal no long deliveries were feasible with them and they were forever breaking down ,  anyway in the end they stood in the back of the yard unused and unloved but well ridiculed ,only thing we missed was the amusement with the backfire .



Many of the local busses are now running on methane and not only are they quieter than the diesels they seem just as powerful as a passenger.   When I first started in the coach business we had petrol coaches.   It was just the mpg difference that made us change to diesel.   I remember the old petrol waggons as well.    
If the drivers treat the vehicles in the way you describe it is no wonder they were not in favour.  I have known drivers with a grudge wreck a diesel.   The LPG powered truck seemed to be running just as good as the diesels.   Driven properly and with respect.
It is in urban environments where the diesel is causing problems.  Ford and Fiat recently advertised LPG only vans for urban deliveries.  At the same time forecourts are removing LPG pumps.   No joined up thinking.


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## sasquatch (Feb 14, 2017)

don't forget that agricultural machinery uses diesel as does pneumatic compressors and other sit machinery like dumpers, backacters(JCB) and other site equipment.
And what about the canal narrowboats.
Incidentally,if every vehicle in the UK was electric,we would need an extra 20 nuclear power stations!!!


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## Asterix (Feb 14, 2017)

sasquatch said:


> don't forget that agricultural machinery uses diesel as does pneumatic compressors and other sit machinery like dumpers, backacters(JCB) and other site equipment.
> And what about the canal narrowboats.
> Incidentally,if every vehicle in the UK was electric,we would need an extra 20 nuclear power stations!!!



The scheme would only apply to cars,there's no suggestion that any of those vehicles would be affected. I'm not sure where your figure of 20 nuclear stations comes from,but year on year increases in renewables will also see the number of power stations required,come down year on year.
It's early days but from the negatives being posted about being more environmentally friendly,it would appear some people want to stay with fossil fuels?


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## Byronic (Feb 14, 2017)

Asterix said:


> It's early days but from the negatives being posted about being more environmentally friendly,it would appear some people want to stay with fossil fuels?



Known as Old Fossil Fools?
But 20 million 50kW electric cars used for an average one hour a day is going to require massive renewable resources.


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## ricc (Feb 14, 2017)

theres allways been basic problems with the electric vehicle concept

cost and weight of the batteries

and how to tax the electric used to run cars to generate a tax revenue similar to that from petrol and diesel, perhaps the push to smart meters is a clue here..... high night time usage being taxed at roadfuel rates????


add in that fossil fuels will eventually run out.


using solar power to produce hydrogen on an industrial scale and distribute via filling stations, whilst banning diy production on elf and safety grounds would solve all the problems.  

 gas tank and engine would be similar weight to current ones, distributing the gas via a supply network means it easily taxed as petrol and diesel are now.   and allows the continued supply of low taxed leccy for domestic use.

if solar power runs out , running cars will be the least of our worries


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## sparrks (Feb 14, 2017)

Slightly off tangent does anyone know what voltage these electric cars run at? The Williams F1 Kers battery were around 600v dc I assume these cars are a lot less.


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## harrow (Feb 14, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Slightly off tangent does anyone know what voltage these electric cars run at? The Williams F1 Kers battery were around 600v dc I assume these cars are a lot less.


The battery is nominal 280/290 volts on the Toyota Prius :wave:


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## Tezza (Feb 14, 2017)

[video=youtube;PiGQK43Deuo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGQK43Deuo[/video]


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## harrow (Feb 14, 2017)

I think what we will see is a carrot and stick deal.

Take the carrot, scrap the old smoker and get some cashback.

Don't take the carrot and they will use the stick.

Diesel fuel duty up, road tax up, parking charges up and charge more for anything else they can think of.

*So you either take the carrot or they will use the stick to beat you* :rulez::scared:


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## Jillygumbo (Feb 14, 2017)

I saw a Toyota Alphard hybrid today. Not seen that before. Some ex bongo people are buying Alphards so I wonder if there's any mileage in a conversion of that?


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## Derekoak (Feb 14, 2017)

*Diesel particulate in lungs*

The thing that is driving the anti deisel sentiment is not only the long term effect on global warming, which applies to a greater extent to petrol and to a serious extent to lpg and hydrogen produced by fossils fuel powered electricity, but also and politically imminently  to excess people dying from lung diseases mostly in cities from nitrous oxide and small particulates largely due to diesel!
I do not know what politicians will do but the logic would be to keep diesel for transport outside cities but encourage other forms within where there are concentrated fumes and lots of lungs. So I expect more park and ride, bans on diesel vehicles entering the centre of cities, or punitive charges for those that do. Also encouragement to scrap the oldest deisels which are the worst offenders  (maybe). 
The logic applies to lorries buses taxis  but only agricultural vehicles if they get lost. 
Logically transport by deisel should come to the outskirts and be reloaded to another lorry, perhaps electric, for delivery within the city.
That sort of solution in the medium term keeps the extra load on electricity production manageable whilst protecting the most lungs.
Hopefully in the short term motorhomes will only see a little cost if they are  new, euro 4 5 and 6 and they stay out of cities.
In the longer term who knows.


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## sparrks (Feb 14, 2017)

Tezza said:


> [video=youtube;PiGQK43Deuo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiGQK43Deuo[/video]



Somewhat wishful thinking methinks. In this day and age with the internet there are millions of sites featuring real and fake news, information and misinformation. If these machines really did exist then they would have turned up in various parts of the world,  or at the very least detailed blueprints would have been published on the Web by now.

Energy companies of course have an interest to keep such devices from being developed but I believe if it was viable then it would be in the public domain by now.

PS:  If such a device existed then you can bet that some cranks/scientists would suggest that their use would be detrimental for the earth somehow maybe all that magnetism speeding up or slowing down the earths rotation.


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## davef (Feb 14, 2017)

*renewable powered electric cars?*

I think most people would agree electric vehicles in towns charged by renewable energy sounds like a good idea. When you have direct real experience of these however, things look a lot less rosie. I've owned a 5Kw wind turbine - sited on a windy hill off the west coast of Scotland - for some 10 years, and a 3,8Kw solar panel array for 4 years. During windy spells - like the last week -  the turbine produces significant amounts of energy, 40 or 60 Kwhr/24 hours, but in calmer conditions weeks can go by with it producing virtually nothing - or even nothing. It needed a major rebuild at 9 years. If I did not do the servicing myself, it would be unlikely to ever pay for itself in its 20 year design life.
Similarly the pv array produces significant power in mid summer, but virtually nothing mid winter.
Unless you were prepared to only drive in the summertime or when windy, you would need battery storage to last several weeks of use, which simply isn't practical yet. Electric vehicles will be dependant on power produced by fossil or nuclear fuel. They simply relocate where any pollution occurs.
Then of course there is the problem of the lithium in the battery....quite hazardous stuff to human health....


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 15, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> I've been using a purer form of biodiesel [reclaimed waste oil] in the same vehicle for 12 years with zero problems but it is an older much more tolerant engine. Co2 neutral of course but yes it does put out a tad more Nox. As most of us no doubt know Rudolf Diesel designed his engine to run on peanut oil.



dear rudolphs first engine actually ran on coal  i believe ,but unfortunately exploded nearly killing him ,he did go on to perfect it though ,and then used nut oil . the problem i do believe modern diesel engines have with running on veg oil is realy in the fuel pump design   its unable to handle the veg oil and eats itself quite quickly the engine is fine as its still basically the same old basic design . when i had the merc 250 i used to use veg oil with diesel mix ,i loved peoples reaction when i pulled up at the supermarket ,filled the trolley up with about 20 or so bottles of veg oil and went into the car park and proceeded to pour the contents into the car fuel filler ,some of there reactions were priceless especially when some came and asked what i was doing ,and i told them ,others believed i was barking mad and the car wouldent run or at best explode .


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 15, 2017)

harrow said:


> I think what we will see is a carrot and stick deal.
> 
> Take the carrot, scrap the old smoker and get some cashback.
> 
> ...


 i hardly think they would outprice diesel cars on the fuel side ,as that would effect every diesel veihcle  busses lorries and other types we just cannot afford to be without . taxation yes  but look at it this way my car will hit 60 plus mpg on diesel ,the equivalent petrol model is lucky to see mid 30s on a long run, local a bit less in fact a lot less  guy opposite us has a 2.3 petrol galaxy  he couldn't believe i was getting nigh on twice to the gallon as his . so the government are going to have to either double the fuel duty  or hike the road tax massively to make my car that uneconomical to run i will scrap it and return to petrol .and if they do hike the fuel duty massively then theres always the veg oil option .


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## Derekoak (Feb 15, 2017)

*Lungs*



mandrake said:


> i hardly think they would outprice diesel cars on the fuel side ,as that would effect every diesel veihcle  busses lorries and other types we just cannot afford to be without . taxation yes  but look at it this way my car will hit 60 plus mpg on diesel ,the equivalent petrol model is lucky to see mid 30s on a long run, local a bit less in fact a lot less  guy opposite us has a 2.3 petrol galaxy  he couldn't believe i was getting nigh on twice to the gallon as his . so the government are going to have to either double the fuel duty  or hike the road tax massively to make my car that uneconomical to run i will scrap it and return to petrol .and if they do hike the fuel duty massively then theres always the veg oil option .



You are missing the point. Deisel IS more efficient than petrol so is actually relatively better for the planet. BUT This is about lungs and people's deaths. Nitrous oxides and particulates are produced by diesels whatever they burn.
 NOx and particulates are particularly caused by the diesel cycle burning energy dense fuel at a relatively high temperature compared to petrol.


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## Derekoak (Feb 15, 2017)

*Lungs 2*

My guess is that legislation will ban old diesels from city centres getting quickly more extensive and oppressive.  Also perhaps small offers to scrap old diesels and a bit more fuel tax . They cannot tax lorries off the road without alternative


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 16, 2017)

Byronic said:


> Known as Old Fossil Fools?
> But 20 million 50kW electric cars used for an average one hour a day is going to require massive renewable resources.



Most electric cars consume 200 - 300 watts per mile. Their motors might be 50kw - 100kw or more but in one hour averaging say 40mph will use 8 - 12 kw.


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 16, 2017)

davef said:


> I think most people would agree electric vehicles in towns charged by renewable energy sounds like a good idea. When you have direct real experience of these however, things look a lot less rosie. I've owned a 5Kw wind turbine - sited on a windy hill off the west coast of Scotland - for some 10 years, and a 3,8Kw solar panel array for 4 years. During windy spells - like the last week -  the turbine produces significant amounts of energy, 40 or 60 Kwhr/24 hours, but in calmer conditions weeks can go by with it producing virtually nothing - or even nothing. It needed a major rebuild at 9 years. If I did not do the servicing myself, it would be unlikely to ever pay for itself in its 20 year design life.
> Similarly the pv array produces significant power in mid summer, but virtually nothing mid winter.
> Unless you were prepared to only drive in the summertime or when windy, you would need battery storage to last several weeks of use, which simply isn't practical yet. Electric vehicles will be dependant on power produced by fossil or nuclear fuel. They simply relocate where any pollution occurs.
> Then of course there is the problem of the lithium in the battery....quite hazardous stuff to human health....



No-one can deny your practical experience... however if the proposed 'world ring main' should ever come about being fed 24/7 via solar arrays, turbines etc then things start to look far more positive.


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 16, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> You are missing the point. Deisel IS more efficient than petrol so is actually relatively better for the planet. BUT This is about lungs and people's deaths. Nitrous oxides and particulates are produced by diesels whatever they burn.
> NOx and particulates are particularly caused by the diesel cycle burning energy dense fuel at a relatively high temperature compared to petrol.



not missing the point at all ,yes  the burning of fossil fuels are bad for your health  coal gas petrol diesel .the burning of other bio fuels i belive there called also cause  lung problems ,ie waste wood ,just look at environmentalist fruit cakes  complaining the burning of garden waste give off gasses that kill the ozone but many authorites now burn wood to produce electricity ,because its enviromentaly friendly  also the burning of veg oil causes polutants but i assume the list could be endless realy .many say nuclear power is also a danger to health aswell ,so where do we go ,back to the horse and cart  you tell me . electric cars ,well there the vehicles all hailed as the planet saver ,at the moment ,the problem will come when the scrapping of the batteries rears its head lithium has been long known as detrimental to health wheres that going to go  into some deep sea dump like most pollutants or quietly buried in the earth in old disused mines nobody is highlighting the polution caused to the enviroment  just to get at the stuff , . getting off cars i smoke ,the doc says give it up ,its bad for your lungs ,ok i say but i am 65 in a few days ,i worked in mining from 15 i have worked in the motor trade breathing in asbestos laden brake dust ,and clutch plate dust ,amongst other things too numerous to mention , worked in foundries breathing in all the pollutants they produced , also the chemical industry with benzine  in fact ended up with benzine poisoning as many others did in those days ,thats not good for you  give a hightened risk of blood cancer in later years ,need i go on . there is always going to be some thing out there bad for your health always some person or group of persons that seem to want to highlight some hazard or other . diesel ,petrol /lpg /methane powered cars are poisoning the air ok ,and so will many millions of other things , electric cars in ten or so years will cause untold problems as well we just havent encountered them yet ,or have we and there being kepet under wraps  . look at air travel more and more metal birds in the sky burning jet fuel ,or kerosene i believe  ever worked with it i have ,after a few months of it my skin resembled the monster from the black lagoon ,its horrendous stuff , when thats burned where dose all the pollutants go ,straight down to earth wallop on our heads and into our lungs  but the wanting to build bigger airports to promote more aircraft more air miles travelled more pollution caused  . get over it folks  life will always be bad for your health lets face it ,the biggest killer in this world is old age  nothing else  lets hope we all suffer from it .


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## sparrks (Feb 16, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> Last time it seemed to me that one manufacturer did vey well from the Scrappage Scheme as within an instant the new Fiat 500s were everywhere... So huge amounts of serviceable vehicles got scrapped and replacements gave foreign manufacturers a mega bonus. In that process, bearing in mind that massive amounts of pollution is generated to produce a new car and ecologically it's actually cleaner to keep an oldie running for as long as possible world air quality suffers through these schemes. That's forgetting all the tens of thousands of lorry journeys taking away these scrapped cars, then moving the resultant dismantled parts here and there and then bringing in the new ones from remote dock areas where other lorries finally take most of the scrap to be dirtily processed in China for us to buy back again in different forms... I'm sure that makes sense to someone but beyond me!
> 
> Love em or hate em electric vehicles make perfect sense to a large proportion of motorists in many ways. With one moving part in the drive motor servicing will be very cheap, motor oil and filters gone forever as of course will be exhaust systems etc etc. Millions of vehicles cover less than 20 miles a day and are idle for 23 hours out of 24. If you've not driven an electric vehicle see if you can get a test drive in a Nissan Leaf... The performance is amazing, all in silence too! As for a previous comment 'where's all the electricity going to come from' believe it or not renewables are coming on strong.. a recent quote _"Germany hit a new high in renewable energy generation. ... Power prices actually went negative for several hours, meaning commercial customers were being paid to consume electricity". ...  _
> 
> ...



Any links to this 'World ring main'?

I would have thought the losses would be too great, interestingly, long (up to 300miles) transmission lines are ac, very long (over 300 miles - The Rio Madeira transmission link in Brazil, with an overhead length of  2,385km, is the world's longest power transmission line. ) lines are dc.


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## Byronic (Feb 16, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> Most electric cars consume 200 - 300 watts per mile. Their motors might be 50kw - 100kw or more but in one hour averaging say 40mph will use 8 - 12 kw.



Yes I know, and 300W x 30 or 40 miles equals a lot of energy , and the average usage may well be more than 1 hour and 30 miles per day. And not helped if road freight also was to be transported by electric powered trucks and/or vans.

Having said that I can't wait for the IC engine to be consigned to history.....explosions in a cylinder how 19th century is that!


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## Dowel (Feb 16, 2017)

mandrake said:


> not missing the point at all, get over it folks  life will always be bad for your health lets face it ,the biggest killer in this world is old age  nothing else  lets hope we all suffer from it .



A knotty problem. I agree with Derekoak's analysis and much of what you Mandrake say above but real life when filtered through the party political system is about what is possible and acceptable to the public. 

Shortly after the media turned their attention to the dirty diesels I did hear, on Radio 4, an informed comment on how the figures for deaths would be experienced in real life. I recall that the expert said the "additional deaths" would be earlier deaths of persons already suffering medical problems so older persons such as myself may die a few months, or possibly years, earlier than would have been the case without NOX etc pollution. This is very bad news for those individuals and their families and they have my genuine sympathy.

On the other hand the population of humans as a whole (at least in first world countries) are already healthier and living longer than before which may be reflected by additional incidence of cancers, dementia and more.

Who knows what the government will do all we can be sure of is that they will do whatever makes them more likely to be re-elected which may or may not be the best thing to do in the long run.

UK Government launched an air quality consultation in September 2015
Government launches air quality consultation - News stories - GOV.UK

The draft results are available: draft plans to improve air quality
Air quality: draft plans to improve air quality - GOV.UK

I hope government and industry will get on with supporting and/or providing the infrastructure for charging electric vehicles, Hydrogen refuelling points and pro tem till something better turns up LPG available everywhere.

By something better I mean synthetic or bio gas and the like. Otherwise unproductive land in hot dry countries could be using solar power to split water to make hydrogen or producing gas by "farming" biological processes in lieu of extracting fossil fuels. Closer to home why the delay in harnessing tidal power, something that never stops?

We know that diesels use compression ignition and cannot be simply converted to run on LPG. But is it impossible to replace the glow plugs with spark plugs and if necessary reduce the compression ratio? Maybe cylinder heads would have to be re-engineered or even replaced. The vehicle manufacturers would not like that very much and may try to prevent it from happening but that does not mean it is impossible. Probably not economically viable for an old van like mine but if you have tens of thousands invested in a nicer van maybe worthwhile?

Should I start looking on ebay for a complete petrol equivalent to my PSA XUD turbo diesel engine. I'll be the one advertising for a rusty 405, Xantia or the like with a good motor preferably already converted to LPG


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## Derekoak (Feb 16, 2017)

*Diesel scrappage*

The mayor of London was the latest voice for diesel scrappage. He is already doing a lot about air pollution in London. He cannot offer scrappage that is for the government. I do not see why he does not have a system of excluding the worst vehicles like German cities are doing. That would not cost as much as a scrappage scheme and old diesels outside cities, where they may be better for the environment than petrol, would continue a while.
Excluding the worst vehicles only pushes owners who need city access to buy new less polluting vehicles. The rest of us are given a bit more notice that the writing is on the wall.
 I read somewhere that changing a diesel engine to run petrol and lpg would not be economic compared to installing a new engine.


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 17, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Any links to this 'World ring main'?
> 
> I would have thought the losses would be too great, interestingly, long (up to 300miles) transmission lines are ac, very long (over 300 miles - The Rio Madeira transmission link in Brazil, with an overhead length of  2,385km, is the world's longest power transmission line. ) lines are dc.



I'm sure there will be losses but as the energy is free in the first place...... I heard this on a fascinating Radio 4 programme not that long ago that also mooted a simple idea that I had thought of, i.e. instead of turning off wind turbines use them at times of low demand to produce hydrogen from water.


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## harrow (Feb 17, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> The mayor of London was the latest voice for diesel scrappage. He is already doing a lot about air pollution in London. He cannot offer scrappage that is for the government. I do not see why he does not have a system of excluding the worst vehicles like German cities are doing. That would not cost as much as a scrappage scheme and old diesels outside cities, where they may be better for the environment than petrol, would continue a while.
> Excluding the worst vehicles only pushes owners who need city access to buy new less polluting vehicles. The rest of us are given a bit more notice that the writing is on the wall.
> I read somewhere that changing a diesel engine to run petrol and lpg would not be economic compared to installing a new engine.


Was on TV this morning diesels to pay an extra £10 to enter London, I think you can expect this to spread, :idea-007:


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 17, 2017)

harrow said:


> Was on TV this morning diesels to pay an extra £10 to enter London, I think you can expect this to spread, :idea-007:


frankly after living around the london area for a few years ,i cannot for the life of me understand why anybody in there right mind would want to take a vehicle into london ,unless of course it businesses or necessity i had to do a lot of driving in london through work at the time ,and believe me it aint for the nervous or sane . i found i dident even have the need to own a car/van ,mind you i did work for a car hire company and if i needed a car for any reason got a very good deal on the hire of a  car ,but i will say this the public transport although mabey not the cheapest way to travel realy was excellent .apart from the tube which i loved 90% of the time most other public transport is available 24/7 mind you the busses arnt half as good now as when they had the old route masters going ,you could hop on and off any one of them easily and the conductor haddent time or the inclination realy to charge you the fare .the unregulated hire cars that are plentifull can be good ,that is when you get used to them and there crafty habbit of going round in circles to up the fare ,they soon cotton on when you tell them they have passed that building twice or you say do you like this road you've been down it a couple of times now .


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## alcam (Feb 17, 2017)

Probably not happening too soon but , worst case scenario ,  what would it cost to replace diesel engine with a petrol engine in a ducato ?


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## alwaysared (Feb 17, 2017)

alcam said:


> Probably not happening too soon but , worst case scenario ,  what would it cost to replace diesel engine with a petrol engine in a ducato ?



Depending on the age of the Ducato sourcing a suitable replacement could be difficult. When I was looking for a MH to buy I found that the only petrol ones available were the older Talbot type. My 1996 Ducato is diesel and I would have loved to buy a petrol as I've long been a non diesel user and if it had been petrol I could have had it converted to LPG and saved money as the cost of LPG is half of the cost of petrol (or diesel).
Let's be honest here diesels are smelly and for the best part noisy that's why I haven't ever been tempted to buy a diesel car nor will I ever buy one.

Regarrds,
Del


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 17, 2017)

alcam said:


> Probably not happening too soon but , worst case scenario ,  what would it cost to replace diesel engine with a petrol engine in a ducato ?



most probably very difficult in any car/van  if its an older van/car there are not the electrics/computer bits in to run the engine gone are the days of getting another replacement engine taking the old one out a putting the replacement in like of old ,you have got to have the old engines software /sensors fitted to the new engine to talk to the engine management on the car i belive . i suppose anything is possible but unless you know what your doing and have the proper tackle ,should imagine its not feasible realy ,certainly not a weekend job on the drive as it used to be .


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## harrow (Feb 17, 2017)

*For London new charges starts in October £21.50 per day* :wacko:


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## Derekoak (Feb 17, 2017)

*Diesel charge*

I think Sadiq Kahn is doing the right thing. I think this will spread to other cities. I doubt any diesel motorhome owner who does not live within an affected city centre will be forced to change vehicle because of this,  but if the opportunity arises in the future perhaps when a personal change is needed anyway it might be a good idea.
 Euro 6 diesels although perhaps expensive to maintain are apparently less polluting. Even they may well be excluded from centres of population in the end. A little electric car to get you to your MH garaged out of town??


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> So does that mean that all of us that use solar panels to keep our batteries topped up for free, that have realised that once paid for we all benefit from the cleanest energy there is... are 'Greeniots'?
> 
> A pal has a Solar Array' on his farm. I walked around it on Sunday. The gras was growing underneath the panels, birds were singing and one or two rabbits were to be seen. It was overcast and early. At the time it was silently producing 35 kw, pretty good for a modest installation. No sign of any real disruption, it didn't need a new road to be put in for access to build it. No fuel, no smoke no mess. A wind turbine 'breaks even' energy-wise in under a year. It'll last for at least 20 years again doing us all, and our kids and their kids a rather large favour. Fossil fuel power stations might help keep the lights on but they're far from good in every respect... And as for nuclear :-0 .........



Perhaps you could try a little harder to understand.......................

IF you have a solar panel on your Mh roof, AND a leisure battery charged by it you are clearly NOT a Greeniot. If, however you try and power UKPLC with a motley selection of solar panels and unreliable wind turbines, AND have no thought of storage (remember your leisure battery?) then you are a world class Greeniot.

If you have a solar panel on your Mh roof and DO NOT have a leisure battery, then the above applies!!!

Your "Pal"'s solar array is nothing of the sort, it is a SUBSIDY farm. Ask your Pal how interested he'd have been to install it were it not for the massively subsidised return he gets from the tiny and UKPLC irrelevant amount of power it generates and, then only in ideal and daylight conditions. You might also ask him that if the grass under the SUBSIDISED panels was growing so well, why he wasn't using this clearly arable land to grow FOOD?

Not a single, even subsidised wind turbine gets even close to paying for itself in a year, even at the 1.9 x wholesale price of electricity it gets from its SUBSIDY, on the rare occasion it is windy enough to generate anything of any use to UKPLC! No wind turbine has yet lasted 20+ years as you say, and none ever will, the maximum life that can be expected is 10 to 15 years , but the subsidy is so high that 100% replacement cost within the 25 yr subsidy life is easily affordable.

Perhaps a daily or weekly visit to G. B. National Grid status might let you see the real story of how UKPLC energy is organised.!

Hard hat now on, Greeniots are a weird bunch.........................................!!!!!!!!


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> I'm sure there will be losses but as the energy is free in the first place...... I heard this on a fascinating Radio 4 programme not that long ago that also mooted a simple idea that I had thought of, i.e. instead of turning off wind turbines use them at times of low demand to produce hydrogen from water.



Had the renewable energies available to UKPLC been organised by ENGINEERS rather then the GREENIOT politicians and other assorted idiots, then I'd be the first to agree with you.

ANY unreliable source of power is only of any use if some form of storage is organised BEFORE the countryside is littered by all means of, from a National Grid point of view, quite useless "generators"

HAD this been done by engineers, then it is likely that ALL unreliable, but, perhaps, desirable, forms of "renewable" energy would have, from day 1, been connected to their own Grid. The variable power from this grid could then have been used to, as you say, produce Hydrogen from water by electrolysis, Hydrogen is reasonably easily stored and distributed, and can be either burned in a slightly modified conventional 4 stroke engine (only exhaust by product being water BTW) or run through fuel cells to produce electricity directly, to even power electric cars perhaps.

But then WE had Greeniots...............................!!!!!

Harder hat now on!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

alcam said:


> You are worth watching . The Donald is still recruiting [in case you were wondering] .
> Hope you don't mind me asking , were you a total radge before you went to Norfolk or did it just come over you when you got there ?



I DO mind you asking,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,however, this a life long , incurable, response to idiots ( sorry can't spell radge), moronic politicians ( they are widely distributed, but seem to have a fascination with Scotland) and Greeniots.

Hope you don't mind my reply?


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## sparrks (Feb 17, 2017)

IanH said:


> Perhaps you could try a little harder to understand.......................
> 
> IF you have a solar panel on your Mh roof, AND a leisure battery charged by it you are clearly NOT a Greeniot. *If, however you try and power UKPLC with a motley selection of solar panels and unreliable wind turbines, AND have no thought of storage (remember your leisure battery?) then you are a world class Greeniot.*
> 
> ...



Can you point to links which the Power Generators use to store their electricity from coal,gas nuclear etc? Green is the future but that is still some way off.


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Can you point to links which the Power Generators use to store their electricity from coal,gas nuclear etc? Green is the future but that is still some way off.



As far as I know, NO power generators store electrical energy. Micro bits such as Dinorwic do not contribute enough to be considered as UKPLC type storage, bit like an AA battery in your motorhome!!!

The Grid works by using non throttleable (sorry if that's not a word, but its understandable!) forms of energy to supply BASE LOAD, this load is the basic needs but without the plus or minuses created by time of day, variable load etc. This is done by Nuclear (which always runs at 100%, there being no fuel cost) and Coal which needs to be at high power for efficiency and pollution issues. The variable load is currently mostly CCGT, which is gas turbine engines which steam generators in the exhaust to then run a separate steam turbine, both the gas and steam run generators. This is much more controllable and able to cope,to some extent, with the vagaries of the extremely variable "renewables", especially wind which, legally, has to be used when available, absurdly, IMHO!!

If you want a "green" future we need nuclear fission, which is still some way off, though proven and possible. For now, fusion will have to do and is far and away the cleanest form of power IF decommissioning is taken into account from day 1


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## Derekoak (Feb 17, 2017)

*Green energy*

The next future fixed price for onshore wind is predicted to be lower than the price agreed for hinckley B nuclear. That may be why the government is not agreeing to hinckley C. Onshore and off shore wind  costs have fallen by 35% recently and are expected to continue to fall. Solar is falling equally if not with greater rapidity. The more panels produced and new technologies cause this effect. Solar is cheaper than any other power production already in sunnier countries  like portugal. Subsidies were necessary to kick start these technologies but they are reducing and will not be needed for ever. Meanwhile oil prices rise. I am an engineer!
Mind you we are well off the subject of the thread.


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## sparrks (Feb 17, 2017)

IanH said:


> As far as I know, NO power generators store electrical energy. Micro bits such as Dinorwic do not contribute enough to be considered as UKPLC type storage, bit like an AA battery in your motorhome!!!
> 
> The Grid works by using non throttleable (sorry if that's not a word, but its understandable!) forms of energy to supply BASE LOAD, this load is the basic needs but without the plus or minuses created by time of day, variable load etc. This is done by Nuclear (which always runs at 100%, there being no fuel cost) and Coal which needs to be at high power for efficiency and pollution issues. The variable load is currently mostly CCGT, which is gas turbine engines which steam generators in the exhaust to then run a separate steam turbine, both the gas and steam run generators. This is much more controllable and able to cope,to some extent, with the vagaries of the extremely variable "renewables", especially wind which, legally, has to be used when available, absurdly, IMHO!!
> 
> If you want a "green" future we need nuclear fission, which is still some way off, though proven and possible. For now, fusion will have to do and is far and away the cleanest form of power IF decommissioning is taken into account from day 1



I know no power generators store electrical energy I was just wondering why you appear to be suggesting that 'green' power should be stored. - *If, however you try and power UKPLC with a motley selection of solar  panels and unreliable wind turbines, AND have no thought of storage  (remember your leisure battery?) then you are a world class Greeniot. *


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## Tezza (Feb 17, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Can you point to links which the Power Generators use to store their electricity from coal,gas nuclear etc? Green is the future but that is still some way off.


Grid energy storage - Wikipedia


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

sparrks said:


> I know no power generators store electrical energy I was just wondering why you appear to be suggesting that 'green' power should be stored. - *If, however you try and power UKPLC with a motley selection of solar  panels and unreliable wind turbines, AND have no thought of storage  (remember your leisure battery?) then you are a world class Greeniot. *



Please explain, exactly where I said that Green energy should be stored??
My whole objection to green energy is that it now cannot be, but had that been a consideration by the Greeniots on day 1, then, perhaps, it could have been. As it is wholly unreliable and virtually unpredictable, then the only practical use of it is when stored. However we now have a botched and impractical system which, with engineering input from the start could have been so much better


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> The next future fixed price for onshore wind is predicted to be lower than the price agreed for hinckley B nuclear. That may be why the government is not agreeing to hinckley C. Onshore and off shore wind  costs have fallen by 35% recently and are expected to continue to fall. Solar is falling equally if not with greater rapidity. The more panels produced and new technologies cause this effect. Solar is cheaper than any other power production already in sunnier countries  like portugal. Subsidies were necessary to kick start these technologies but they are reducing and will not be needed for ever. Meanwhile oil prices rise. I am an engineer!
> Mind you we are well off the subject of the thread.



You are correct, in one thing, this is now well off the subject!!

Just spent this week in London on holiday, hence the rash of posts today. Many things were interesting, a HUGE amount of BUSES, all diesel, some extremely old, quite a lot of Routemasters. A HUGE amount of taxis, many quite old. A surprisingly small amount of private cars, many (wholly unsubjective) non diesel. 

Just to finish off though.....................if you live in a sunny country, solar will always be cheaper, even if there is none after dark!
Wind costs are irrelevant when it is not windy, did you notice the blocking High of the past weeks, meaning little or no wind power in the coldest weeks of the year?
 Oil price 2008, $136, today $52 or so, that's a price rise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bw
IanH


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## Derekoak (Feb 17, 2017)

*Diesel charges*

To Ian H,
You are correct in one thing there are a lot of old diesels taxis in London and for some illogical reason they are exempt from the new charge. Politics I suppose. 
Best to keep on the thread topic.


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## harrow (Feb 17, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> To Ian H,
> You are correct in one thing there are a lot of old diesels taxis in London and for some illogical reason they are exempt from the new charge. Politics I suppose.
> Best to keep on the thread topic.


The black taxis do have an age limit, emissions equipment or what ever, I think its 13 years old.
Our new busses are some sort of diesel electric, engine switches off when they stop and they seem to move off on electric. :idea-007:


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## alcam (Feb 17, 2017)

IanH said:


> I DO mind you asking,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,however, this a life long , incurable, response to idiots ( sorry can't spell radge), moronic politicians ( they are widely distributed, but seem to have a fascination with Scotland) and Greeniots.
> 
> Hope you don't mind my reply?




Not at all . You do , if you don't mind me saying , seem intent on proving your radginess . Not sure if you made up the word greeniot yourself but it is extremely lame and a tad pathetic . Think it would help your rants if you maybe used some other term . 
I'm here to help


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## IanH (Feb 17, 2017)

alcam said:


> Not at all . You do , if you don't mind me saying , seem intent on proving your radginess . Not sure if you made up the word greeniot yourself but it is extremely lame and a tad pathetic . Think it would help your rants if you maybe used some other term .
> I'm here to help



Well Greeniot is made from 2 words, I am sure you may have by now worked this out.

Green and Idiot.

Having, unfortunately had to work in the renewables industry and been exposed to quite a lot of these morons, it does tend to make one quite cynical.

However, I take your point, and as I am now retired, I'll change the Greeniot name , to Greenfcukwits. There now...........happier???:dance: Hope this helps, I can too!!!


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## Tezza (Feb 17, 2017)

Nuclear by the looks of it is not the answer. But wait....there's somebody on a motorhome forum that know better.
Why nuclear power will never supply the world's energy needs


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## Tezza (Feb 17, 2017)

double post....sorry


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## sparrks (Feb 17, 2017)

Tezza said:


> Grid energy storage - Wikipedia



Sorry must be going blind but cannot see any reference to stored electrical energy. Demand response and stored hydro yes.


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## Tezza (Feb 17, 2017)

The title gives it away.....now I'm no genius but I believe we get our electric from the grid. So it points out how we can store electrical energy.

edit. But you were saying there was no means to store , but there is.


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## sparrks (Feb 17, 2017)

IanH said:


> Perhaps you could try a little harder to understand.......................
> 
> *IF you have a solar panel on your Mh roof, AND a leisure battery charged by it you are clearly NOT a Greeniot. If, however you try and power UKPLC with a motley selection of solar panels and unreliable wind turbines, AND have no thought of storage (remember your leisure battery?) then you are a world class Greeniot.*
> 
> If you have a solar panel on your Mh roof and DO NOT have a leisure battery, then the above applies!!!





IanH said:


> Please explain, exactly where I said that Green energy should be stored??



You appear to be saying if you have a solar panel and a battery you are NOT a greeniot, but have solar and wind turbines and no storage then you are a world class greeniot. Maybe I've misunderstood.


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 18, 2017)

i see the euro6 engine has been mentioned as being less polluting,and yes the figures show they are . is that because they realy are or is it more like the car manufacturers just claim they are .v.w for instance and if the truth was known probably many more manufacturers , they claimed emissions were low and that they were as green as a bowling green ,and our government were either taken in by the claims or were shall we say helped to there decision ,so much so that they made the green tax as its no longer realy road tax rather low. seems the euro 6 is about 20 or so times more polluting in use than is claimed.i only realy run a diesel powered car for one reason thats the fuel consumption but realy i hate the bloody things , there noisy  the diesel stinks to high heaven and spill the dam stuff whilst filling up and you just cannot get the smell of your clothing ,so do i realy like diesel cars NO . if i was running a small run around  i would chose petrol over diesel every time i realy like the fiat 500 and would have one tomorrow i would plum for the abarth though  ,but unfortunately i cannot fit 2 child seats to acomodate the grand kids ,one wife and a lot of the time one daughter and all the junk and rubbish they cart round with them ,also i doubt it would tow a wobble box . so diesel motors especialy the older ones ,have they had there day in the sun ,most probably yes there days are numbered it seems , so time to run the old alhambra into the ground it would seem  we will see what happens in the budget  but frankly I BLAME BREXIT


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## harrow (Feb 18, 2017)

They say because of pollution an extra 9000 people die each year in London, and of course it's not just London but all cities have this problem.
In the 1950's when I was born pollution was bad terrible fogs because of burning coal fires.
It is not an easy problem to solve, :rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:


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## sparrks (Feb 18, 2017)

harrow said:


> They say because of pollution an extra 9000 people die each year in London, and of course it's not just London but all cities have this problem.
> In the 1950's when I was born pollution was bad terrible fogs because of burning coal fires.
> It is not an easy problem to solve, :rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:



I'm sure that figure of 9000 will increase with that nice new runway at Heathrow.


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 18, 2017)

londons mayor ,he has announced its going to cost an extra 10 pound to drive older diesel cars in london ,ok  but if the pollution is so bad and there are thousands of deaths through it ,wouldent it be better to just ban the things instead ,or is it just a ploy to get more cash out of the motorist .


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## Robmac (Feb 18, 2017)

mandrake said:


> londons mayor ,he has announced its going to cost an extra 10 pound to drive older diesel cars in london ,ok  but if the pollution is so bad and there are thousands of deaths through it ,wouldent it be better to just ban the things instead ,or is it just a ploy to get more cash out of the motorist .



Probably. 

Sort of, you can only poison the locals if you pay kinda thing.


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## Derekoak (Feb 18, 2017)

*Euro 6*



hairydog said:


> They're not in terms of NOX emissions. Euro 2 put out less NOX. The higher combustion chamber temperature used to get lower CO and particulates are allowing the creation of NOX. That's why the problem is getting worse in London, despite much lower numbers of old vehicles. There are ways to fix this, but it's not an MOT test item, so nothing is done.


Apparently they are lower on NOx and particulates than euro 4  and still get good mpg. I am surprised about euro 2 but have no figures. Apparently for 6 they use low pressure exhaust recycling, after the turbo, to reduce combustion temperature,  then particulate filter to get rid of the higher particulates. Good general design probably keeps CO down. I would have thought that exhaust recycling has to reduce mpg and increase co2 but they say they are better that way  too!
Of course we users know that they may be lying through their teeth and exhaust recycling valves and dpfs cause endless problems. Mot stations seem to not be equipped to test these things extensively.


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## Derekoak (Feb 18, 2017)

*Charge or ban*



mandrake said:


> londons mayor ,he has announced its going to cost an extra 10 pound to drive older diesel cars in london ,ok  but if the pollution is so bad and there are thousands of deaths through it ,wouldent it be better to just ban the things instead ,or is it just a ploy to get more cash out of the motorist .


Logically the charge would be followed by a ban after people who could not cope with a ban have had time to change vehicle. I think we are on notice.


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## harrow (Feb 18, 2017)

sparrks said:


> I'm sure that figure of 9000 will increase with that nice new runway at Heathrow.


Agreed, 
more planes overhead, 
more noise, 
more traffic congestion 
and more pollution :hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## IanH (Feb 19, 2017)

mandrake said:


> londons mayor ,he has announced its going to cost an extra 10 pound to drive older diesel cars in london ,ok  but if the pollution is so bad and there are thousands of deaths through it ,wouldent it be better to just ban the things instead ,or is it just a ploy to get more cash out of the motorist .



So, now you can pay but continue to pollute??

Hybrids such as Toyota Prius and other assorted electrics pay no congestion charge, but cause as much congestion as any other car!!
:wacko:


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## harrow (Feb 19, 2017)

We will have to see what happens next, expect an increase in the tax on diesel fuel and and increase the cost of road tax :mad1::mad1::mad1:


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## Calum (Feb 19, 2017)

I am sure the govt will wait until the car tax changes on 1st April take place so they do not have a rush to buy Cars that will pay £0 tax after year 1.

I have just ordered a new diesel estate car that will be free car tax forever! My old Volvo costs £250 annually for tax so clear incentive here before I look at new one doing 80% more mpg!!

I know I will miss the 2.5tdi Volvo lump as it was great fun and a lovely 5 cylinder roar but the list of broken parts grew weekly and had got beyond a joke and was far more than was economical to fix for Mot in summer.


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## Derekoak (Feb 19, 2017)

IanH said:


> So, now you can pay but continue to pollute??
> 
> Hybrids such as Toyota Prius and other assorted electrics pay no congestion charge, but cause as much congestion as any other car!!
> :wacko:


Yes but the" congestion and emission tax" would be a bit of a mouthful. Assorted electrics cause no or low emissions at the street level so are clearly free because they are doing what  the mayor of London needs.


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 19, 2017)

Let's take a closer look at the figures claiming 9,000 deaths per year due to pollution. 

What is the average age of people they say are killed by pollution? Myself, I can't find an average age for those killed in London by pollution. Why? 

About 60,000 people a year die in London. Not really much of a surprise there, but it's intriguing to cross-reference the stats that the diesel car-haters state. 

They say that 9,000 deaths each year are due to pollution, BUT this is EVERY kind of pollution, not just vehicles!!  They say that one in twelve deaths in London are due to pollution, which is 5,000 not 9,000 (one-twelfth of 60,000!!)

Porky pies are obviously being told, as usual, to try and guide those that take it as read, that we have a big problem with our diesels. It is a fact, that diesel vehicles emit fumes. It's also a fact that factories, paints, household cleaning chemicals, smokers, fires and various other human/animal activities create pollution.

It is, however, remarkable that millions of people lived to quite a good age in the twentieth century, even when we consider the industrial revolution, coal fires, unrefined vehicles, pollution created by the wars and all other things that we didn't know were harmful at the time.

My gran was 90 when she passed away. She spent most of her life living and working in hazardous environments in the centre of Bristol, as did a lot of my family, who also reached a good old age.

Plus, the figures that the media grab are not proven, they are estimates.

So, we can look again at them. The 9,000 figure is obviously as fictitious as the 350 million on the side of that bus. The figure is actually nearer the 5,000 mark, and my own estimate is that maybe 300 or 400 are due to vehicle emissions alone.

The average amount of time that ALL pollution takes from someone's life is thought to be six months. 

Now don't get me wrong here, but if you've been lucky enough to pass the 70 year mark, then six months is really not that big a deal, so think about it, folks.

Phill


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## IanH (Feb 19, 2017)

Derekoak said:


> Yes but the" congestion and emission tax" would be a bit of a mouthful. Assorted electrics cause no or low emissions at the street level so are clearly free because they are doing what  the mayor of London needs.



Bit of a mouthful......................who cares???

You can pay to pollute, no matter how much you pollute..............wierd way of doing business, you STILL pollute

You can not pay to congest, yet still pollute if your PC car fits non congestion criteria, but still both congests AND pollutes.............wierd way of doing business, you STILL congest AND pollute.

:mad1:


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 19, 2017)

well ive looked at the question of my old death trap polluting unsociable potential mass killer through choking alahmbra .i need a large car well more to the point a people carrier ,believe me if i dident i wouldn't have one ,it hardly gets my juces flowing .anyway apart from transporting the tribe i fondly call my family i can also turn it into a decent van ,and even though i have the wobble box i could chuck a air bed in and a duvet and do a wild camp in it . now if i had a pot of cash i dident know what to do with i certainly wouldent waste it on a new car ,thats for mugs in my book , so i buy older motors ,there cheap ,usualy last a couple or so years ,with no maintainance costs then when they give up the ghost you can usualy find there worth a few quid scrap on the flea bay . so for my needs it got to be diesel ,there so much cheaper to run  the alahbra will comfortably see 60 to the gallon and about the 50 local  ,towing i guess mid thirties . if i went for a petrol version  2.3 galaxy lets say i will easily cut those figure by at least half . so they put up diesel by what a couple of pence a litre and charge me say 50 quid a year extra green tax  it aint road tax now ,when you get the half decently heeled that can afford 4x4 hybrids that dont pay tax all wrong anybody with any type or size of car should contribute to the roads so considering the difference with a petrol motor paying slightly less for tax and probably as not as much tax on the fuel ,i am still going to be quids in  with the diesel version ,and another bonus when it comes time to say a fondish farewell to my dear old friend ,another one will probably be cheaper to by ,because of there unsociable habit of causing mass murder though choking everybody to death   nobody realy wants them  because they have to look caring to the comunity .oh and johnny polar bear . oh and in the summer i can run the thing on  at least 50%veg oil so the governments sticky mitts wont get hold of that extra tax on fuel .


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## Tezza (Feb 19, 2017)

Nearly 9,500 people die each year in London because of air pollution ? study | Environment | The Guardian


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## sparrks (Feb 19, 2017)

Tezza said:


> Nearly 9,500 people die each year in London because of air pollution ?*study | Environment | The Guardian



How premature? couldn't see any figures there. just curious. My nan died prematurely due to chain smoking but still reached 92y


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## Tezza (Feb 19, 2017)

Exhaust gases kill, don't believe me....Go sit in a garage and leave the engine running. Why would you challenge people who have done  far more research than you. Now I will listen to them or perhaps I should listen to somebody who's grandma chain smoked and lived a long life.
So show me you relevant qualifications or I will listen to those that have them .


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## Tezza (Feb 19, 2017)

How Do Scientists Know 9,500 Londoners Died From Air Pollution? | Londonist


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## sparrks (Feb 19, 2017)

Tezza said:


> Exhaust gases kill, don't believe me....Go sit in a garage and leave the engine running. Why would you challenge people who have done  far more research than you. Now I will listen to them or perhaps I should listen to somebody who's grandma chain smoked and lived a long life.
> So show me you relevant qualifications or I will listen to those that have them .



Crikey ask a sensible valid question and get a crackpot answer. I think you'll find that in your scenario above it would be carbon monoxide that would kill you, not NOX and that is without any relevant qualifications.


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## alwaysared (Feb 19, 2017)

mandrake said:


> well ive looked at the question of my old death trap polluting unsociable potential mass killer through choking alahmbra .i need a large car well more to the point a people carrier ,believe me if i dident i wouldn't have one ,it hardly gets my juces flowing .anyway apart from transporting the tribe i fondly call my family i can also turn it into a decent van ,and even though i have the wobble box i could chuck a air bed in and a duvet and do a wild camp in it . now if i had a pot of cash i dident know what to do with i certainly wouldent waste it on a new car ,thats for mugs in my book , so i buy older motors ,there cheap ,usualy last a couple or so years ,with no maintainance costs then when they give up the ghost you can usualy find there worth a few quid scrap on the flea bay . so for my needs it got to be diesel ,there so much cheaper to run  the alahbra will comfortably see 60 to the gallon and about the 50 local  ,towing i guess mid thirties . if i went for a petrol version  2.3 galaxy lets say i will easily cut those figure by at least half . so they put up diesel by what a couple of pence a litre and charge me say 50 quid a year extra green tax  it aint road tax now ,when you get the half decently heeled that can afford 4x4 hybrids that dont pay tax all wrong anybody with any type or size of car should contribute to the roads so considering the difference with a petrol motor paying slightly less for tax and probably as not as much tax on the fuel ,i am still going to be quids in  with the diesel version ,and another bonus when it comes time to say a fondish farewell to my dear old friend ,another one will probably be cheaper to by ,because of there unsociable habit of causing mass murder though choking everybody to death   nobody realy wants them  because they have to look caring to the comunity .oh and johnny polar bear . oh and in the summer i can run the thing on  at least 50%veg oil so the governments sticky mitts wont get hold of that extra tax on fuel .



I agree with you, no one should not pay road tax unless they're not using the roads, only fair way to do road tax is by vehicle weight, I know you are all up in arms as like me you own a motorhome but would it really cost that much more than we pay already. How can someone pay £30.00 year for a Hybrid 4X4 when I have to pay £82.00 a year for my motorbike! A load of bol$%&ks if you ask me.

Regards,
Del


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 19, 2017)

Tezza said:


> Exhaust gases kill, don't believe me....Go sit in a garage and leave the engine running. Why would you challenge people who have done  far more research than you. Now I will listen to them or perhaps I should listen to somebody who's grandma chain smoked and lived a long life.
> So show me you relevant qualifications or I will listen to those that have them .



yes they do kill that is so true ,been to one ,guy sat in car ,all doors closed hose from exhaust to the inside of car .i can confirm he was stone dead .

but it was the carbon monoxide that did it .


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## alcam (Feb 20, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Crikey ask a sensible valid question and get a crackpot answer. I think you'll find that in your scenario above it would be carbon monoxide that would kill you, not NOX and that is without any relevant qualifications.



Anymore crackpot argument than the 90 year old granny ?  Maybe a draw . But you must admit the [incredibly well used] 90 year old granny argument must , surely , be wearing a tad thin by now ?


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 20, 2017)

mandrake said:


> yes they do kill that is so true ,been to one ,guy sat in car ,all doors closed hose from exhaust to the inside of car .i can confirm he was stone dead .



I believe there's something we should be aware of, diesel fumes will kill you, but it takes a lot longer than petrol.

I agree there's a big problem with diesels, but how the hell can a government, who only a few years ago were promoting diesel, now turn around & start heaping excess charges on them!

What annoys me the most, is that it seems to depend on which newspaper you read, I've found varying reports on NO2 & NOx with emission rates going from 72% up to 99% coming from vehicles.
The same thing happens when I've looked at scientific reports.
The only statt I can't find is the average age of the people who supposedly died from diesel fumes.

There are huge advances being made in battery technology, the same goes for electric motors & energy scavenging tech.
Watched a group of students extend the range of a simple elec car, by attaching a wind turbine to the roof.

Personally, I think the government should subsidise  the conversion of all fossil fuelled cars to electric/hydrogen, with battery exchange systems all over the country.

As for a diesel scrappage scheme, well I couldn't afford to buy a new vehicle, even if they gave me a 90% discount, so they can go swivel as far as I'm concerned.

Phill


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 20, 2017)

alcam said:


> Anymore crackpot argument than the 90 year old granny ?  Maybe a draw . But you must admit the [incredibly well used] 90 year old granny argument must , surely , be wearing a tad thin by now ?



Here's a crackpot argument for you, my dad was sent down the mines for the duration of the 2nd world war, when he got out he went driving diesel trucks for a living, he's just celebrated his 92nd birthday, his 2 brothers did the same & are 93 & 98!

An aunt of mine smoked 40+ a day from the age of 14, she died of emphysema when she was 57, she slowly suffocated to death.
Funny/tragic thing is, so did my mother, yet she never smoked a cigarette in her life, lived in the countryside & the same age when she passed away!!

Lightening creates NO2/NOx, so do crops, forests, planes, ships & all other fossil fuel powered installations, so the general consensus is that vehicles are responsible for about 75% of NO2/NOx & not as intimated by the media 100% !!
So therefore 75% of the deaths from NO2/NOx.

Besides, yes deaths from whatever cause have gone up, but you'll probably find that it's in proportion to the population increase! 

Phill


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## Robmac (Feb 20, 2017)

Tezza said:


> Exhaust gases kill, don't believe me....Go sit in a garage and leave the engine running...............



Depends how old the car is.

It would be a very ineffective way of killing yourself in a modern car, and would most likely fail.


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## Derekoak (Feb 20, 2017)

(QUOTE)

Lightening creates NO2/NOx, so do crops, forests, planes, ships & all other fossil fuel powered installations, so the general consensus is that vehicles are responsible for about 75% of NO2/NOx & not as intimated by the media 100% !!
So therefore 75% of the deaths from NO2/NOx.



Phill[/QUOTE]
Ok but lightning ships and other fossil fuel installation have been already removed from the streets of London. You will have to explain how you think crops and forests produce nitrogen oxides but anyway it has been a while since they were by the citizens nose in London. The concentration of NOx doubles on busy roads compared to side streets so a better guess would be 99%.


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## caledonia (Feb 20, 2017)

When taking an HGV for an MOT an emissions test is only carried out if the VOSA inspector can visually see excessive smoke or if he can be bothered.


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## runnach (Feb 20, 2017)

Todays hero is tomorrows villain.

When I worked with Citroen in the early 80's at one stage it was almost a one car franchise The Citroen BX diesel with the shared PSA XUD series engine it was quiet economical re wrote the rule book for diesels.

What you have to remember at the time the government were really pushing diesel because most of the petrol cars on the road ran on leaded fuel, and it was the lead content that was the concern. The price of duty on fuel typically meant 5p per litre cheaper, company car tax bands were revised to make them more attractive.

Next on the pollution list were solvents in paints a major contributor to pollution and a lot of money spent by manufacturers developing water based paints.

As one issue is solved, something else then becomes king pollutant and becomes focus. 

The same is also true of the refrigeration industry. 

Re scrappage schemes all is not what it seems. EU rules insist that manufacturers have a legal duty to dispose of their products end of life , Because of the cost implications you never hear of manufacturers advertising it ! 

I think once the marketing people at the volume manufacturers get their backsides in gear the we will see the trade take care of it.

IMHO I think what we will see are "conquest" bonuses and Deposit allowance targeted at older cars and competitor manufacturers.

E.g I am a Ford Dealer and want to shift my fiestas . Lists of owners from dvla has been going on for years ( how product recalls work) So what I can give loyalty bonuses to exisiting owners and "sweetners " to owners of Corsas for example. I can entice by using deposit allowances for finance deals ( citroen already do this ) 
The mechanism is already there just not used.

If the government are clever, for example at the moment Nissan are considering re investment in Sunderland. Rather than Nissan invest 100 million for sake of a figure they invest 50 million govt makes up the rest. With the strict proviso that the £50 million saves is used to take older cars off the road.

It is an attractive deal for everyone...

Channa


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 20, 2017)

Derekoak.

If you need any info on sources of NO2/NOx Simply google "What are the sources of NO2/NOx"

Phill

Ps., I read through about 15 different media & scientific reports before I posted!


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## harrow (Feb 20, 2017)

For London,

*The charge would apply to all vehicles with pre-Euro 4 emission standards 
*
(broadly speaking those registered before 2005) 

and will add an extra £10 per day on top of the existing Congestion Charge. 

This means the most-polluting cars will have to pay up to £21.50 a day to enter the city on a week day. 

A national scrappage scheme for diesel cars could also be introduced within months to improve air quality in Britain's cities.


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## Derekoak (Feb 20, 2017)

*% pollution down to diesel*



time4t said:


> Derekoak.
> 
> If you need any info on sources of NO2/NOx Simply google "What are the sources of NO2/NOx"
> 
> ...



Yes so I have read around 5 reports I think you are right about 75%. The big emitter I missed is domestic and commercial burning of gas for cooking and central heating which is pretty much the rest. 
As an aside i think the 2 % from agriculture (not relevant to London) will be breakdown of nitrogenous fertilser.
What also surprised me is that particulates from exhausts have reduced by a lot, due to dpf tech but other road transport  particulates from tyres brakes clutches that have not reduced now make up 30% of the particulates from transport. These would mostly apply to electric cars too! Hairydog posted that first
   Several people on this thread have pointed out that the government encouraged diesel and now seems to think the opposite.
It is clear from reading, diesel in cities near lungs is the new complication.  Diesel rurally is still one of the best fuels for road transport even from an environmental view. That is why I suspect that fuel duty rises and road tax increases will be moderate and diesel scrappage if it happens will be targeted on the worst.
Environmentally bikes and trains should be the transport, but that will take some doing!!


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 20, 2017)

It's all very well to discuss diesel vehicle pollution, but what about the only now becoming public knowledge bigger problem, of plastic getting lnto & altering the actual DNA of marine life.

People that eat lot's of fish etc., are now found to be putting themselves at risk of this also!

However I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll leave it up to harrow whether we discuss it or no.

Phill


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## harrow (Feb 20, 2017)

time4t said:


> It's all very well to discuss diesel vehicle pollution, but what about the only now becoming public knowledge bigger problem, of plastic getting lnto & altering the actual DNA of marine life.
> 
> People that eat lot's of fish etc., are now found to be putting themselves at risk of this also!
> 
> ...


No feel free, the problem is unless it is a windy day the smog breaks the safe pollution limits.

You now can't commit to spend a lot of money on a diesel car or van :dog::dog::dog:


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## Derekoak (Feb 20, 2017)

harrow said:


> No feel free, the problem is unless it is a windy day the smog breaks the safe pollution limits.
> 
> You now can't commit to spend a lot of money on a diesel car or van :dog::dog::dog:



If you live within a city like I guess Harrow does, I think he is right. If you live more rurally I think you just might be best continuing with diesel and avoiding driving into cities. But make your own decisions I am not an expert.


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## Robmac (Feb 20, 2017)

time4t said:


> It's all very well to discuss diesel vehicle pollution, but what about the only now becoming public knowledge bigger problem, of plastic getting lnto & altering the actual DNA of marine life.
> 
> People that eat lot's of fish etc., are now found to be putting themselves at risk of this also!
> 
> ...



The sea is the real lungs of the world. Mess that up too much and we are in real trouble!


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## maingate (Feb 20, 2017)

harrow said:


> No feel free, the problem is unless it is a windy day the smog breaks the safe pollution limits.
> 
> You now can't commit to spend a lot of money on a diesel car or van :dog::dog::dog:



If anyone wants to know how bad vehicle pollution can get, take a trip to Mexico City. :scared:

It is built inside a huge volcano crater and when the wind does not blow, the population really suffer. I was there for a couple of months and some days it was dreadful. My breathing was quite severely affected, the visibility was seriously affected due to the blue haze over the City.


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## sparrks (Feb 20, 2017)

time4t said:


> It's all very well to discuss diesel vehicle pollution, but what about the only now becoming public knowledge bigger problem, of plastic getting lnto & altering the actual DNA of marine life.
> 
> People that eat lot's of fish etc., are now found to be putting themselves at risk of this also!
> 
> ...



I was going to comment on this the other day but didn't want to side track the thread. I read the other day that in 2005 the human race dumped more tons of rubbish in the sea than the tonnage of fish caught.


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## sparrks (Feb 20, 2017)

alcam said:


> Anymore crackpot argument than the 90 year old granny ?  Maybe a draw . But you must admit the [incredibly well used] 90 year old granny argument must , surely , be wearing a tad thin by now ?



Any doctor, at least in recent years would tell you that smoking is bad for you and will likely shorten your life. My nan died from cancer of the Oesophagus and Bronchopneumonia but how much did smoking shorten her life? months, years? we will never know. I asked Tezza the question because I was interested as to what part of the population it affected and how severely. If it is really bad then maybe ban all non essential diesel engined vehicles from all cities straight away, and that most definitely includes motorhomes.


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## malodian (Feb 20, 2017)

*Diesel engine scrapping scheme*

Don't scrap your diesel engine scrap your fuel start making your own bio-diesel, easy and cheap.


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## IanH (Feb 20, 2017)

malodian said:


> Don't scrap your diesel engine scrap your fuel start making your own bio-diesel, easy and cheap.



Can you then drive it in London?

If so, how do the NPR cameras know what's in the tank?


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 21, 2017)

harrow said:


> They say because of pollution an extra 9000 people die each year in London, and of course it's not just London but all cities have this problem.
> In the 1950's when I was born pollution was bad terrible fogs because of burning coal fires.
> It is not an easy problem to solve, :rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:



I too remember the 'Pea-Soupers' when walking to school in 1960's London. In some places the visibility was, or at least seemed like a yard! Think horrible stuff that thankfully [as I hated school and it sparked my asthma] meant days off playing at home. By the time I started smoking in my early teens I'd already had a lung collapse as an infant and pneumonia that hospitalised me for a fortnight so as you can imagine I wasn't that bright reaching for the Players Number 6 fags... on and off smoking for 40 + years, jobs that included welding [nice fumes - not], stuffy exhaust filled vehicle workshops, then renovating property with all the associated dust and muck. By some miracle I am still functioning.

So I think, as another contributor to this thread mentioned, although it's nice to breathe fresh air some but not all humans seem to be able to live to a ripe old age breathing in all sorts of muck. Luck of the draw / good genes... who knows?

I'm going to have a look at water injection, apparently very good at knocking Nox down a great deal but will admit my primary reason is the same as why I like a diesel.... I'm hoping for a bit more bang for my buck!


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## mark61 (Feb 21, 2017)

Haven't read the full report, and not pretending I fully understand it yet, but I understand the following quote, no doubt these disclaimers are put in a lot of reports these days for many reasons.

"WHO acknowledged uncertainty in the evidence so the associated figures are considered approximate and need to be used with care"

King's College London report on mortality burden of NO2 and PM2.5 in London


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## ricc (Feb 21, 2017)

just a couple of probably contreversial thoughts to chuck out there


it can be argued that theres too many humans on the planet already,  a few dying off through whatever makes a bit more room for the rest


the however many thousand who pop off a few months early due to inner city polution , are these otherwise fit and healthy people enjoing life, or elderly people suffering from a multitude of conditions , dementia etc , with no quality of life , wishing it was all over but being kept alive vegitating in their care home or hospital beds by well wishing medical experts , who are at the same time moaning about the the lack of bed spaces

were knocking diesel for emmiting nox which is affecting a relitavly small number of people.... the long term  solution proposed is to go to less fuel efficient vehicles which emit more co2 which will lead to increased global warming with the potential to cause more harm to a far greater number.... and the polar bears.

short term solution is to charge the nox emitters money... just how does that help those who are alledgedly suffering from the pollution


but at the end of the arguments we still have to get on and live with whatever the crackpot politicians decide is best for feathering their own nests.


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 21, 2017)

malodian said:


> Don't scrap your diesel engine scrap your fuel start making your own bio-diesel, easy and cheap.



according to the dutch and other experts around the world  the burning of veg oil/bio fuel  in cars and other places such as power stations gives off almost as many pollutants  and cancer  causing crap as mineral oil  i assume thats diesel  .and that the amounts of nox can be higher . now i am not saying thats true ,i am no expert ,and i suppose there are many so called experts that say getting out of bed is dangerous and kills many thousands every year who knows ,but i do know this if the governments around the world can find a money making excuse ,no mater how far from true the experts ideas are ,they will jump on it ,and screw more money out of us .


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## runnach (Feb 21, 2017)

The problem with a lot of these scrapage schemes is they are a very short term hit because of the way the used car market works.

The price of fuel may rise , Road tax etc and congestion charges. The value of the vehicles fall . but one compensate the other when you look at overall life costs.


To give an idea when I was motor trade, in the mid 80s insurance costs rocketed on XR2 Xr3's and the like. The values plummeted, At its worst you couldn't get a trader to bid on one. But those buying one could buy as  cheap car insure it and overall costs were the same.

The only people realistically it hurt were the existing owners.( young lads that owned one and couldn't afford the hike in insurance)

Things may have changed but diesels when I took them in part exchange rather than put through ADT at Brighouse I would put them through ADT at Manchester  auctions 40 miles at most apart but they did better in Manchester. The reason was simple Manchester had a lot of Irish buyers so the cars would find there way to Ireland. 

The big petrol guzzling Scorpios Carltons older BMW and Mercedes flew down to Northampton or Blackbushe  the London lads bought them and gave stronger money than in the North. Sit tight it all comes good again 

Channa


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## jagmanx (Feb 21, 2017)

*Yes*



sparrks said:


> I was going to comment on this the other day but didn't want to side track the thread. I read the other day that in 2005 the human race dumped more tons of rubbish in the sea than the tonnage of fish caught.



Cruise Liners
Cargo ships
etc etc 
seem to dump everything at sea.

No way to stop them !

PS it was on Facebook so it must be true ! Just ask Vladimir !
Ah That has PUT HIM or PUT IN in his place.....He will be panicking now !


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## sparrks (Feb 21, 2017)

ricc said:


> just a couple of probably contreversial thoughts to chuck out there
> 
> 
> it can be argued that theres too many humans on the planet already,  a few dying off through whatever makes a bit more room for the rest
> ...



Did ask Tezza a question asking for more info on the above, ie who was it affecting the most? How premature were these people dieing? but got a normal Tezza answer stating I wasn't suitably qualified to ask such questions.


ricc said:


> short term solution is to charge the nox emitters money... just how does  that help those who are alledgedly suffering from the pollution


It helps by making people ask themselves is it worth paying the extra cost or can I find an alternative method of travel. I agree some have no choice but to use their existing travel method.


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 22, 2017)

mandrake said:


> according to the dutch and other experts around the world  the burning of veg oil/bio fuel  in cars and other places such as power stations gives off almost as many pollutants  and cancer  causing crap as mineral oil  i assume thats diesel  .and that the amounts of nox can be higher . now i am not saying thats true ,i am no expert ,and i suppose there are many so called experts that say getting out of bed is dangerous and kills many thousands every year who knows ,but i do know this if the governments around the world can find a money making excuse ,no mater how far from true the experts ideas are ,they will jump on it ,and screw more money out of us .



Yes, burning vegoil can produce some nasties and in some cases more Nox than straight diesel but the main selling point is that it's CO2 neutral, something that no other readily available fuel can claim. I've used waste vegoil for years in motors without problems.


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## Deleted member 775 (Feb 22, 2017)

bedonwheels said:


> Yes, burning vegoil can produce some nasties and in some cases more Nox than straight diesel but the main selling point is that it's CO2 neutral, something that no other readily available fuel can claim. I've used waste vegoil for years in motors without problems.



never used the waste oil ,but i have used new ,in a couple of my cars ok not neat but with a mix of diesel , first i had was a pug 405 estate great motor although i am not the best pug lover to be honest  but i never used veg oil in that . anyway my merc 250 c class ran lovely on it  but i must admit i never used it on the e class 220 cdi that engine couldn't take the veg oil according to form, any problems with that engine and you had very very  big repair bills mind you if anything went wrong with that car you needed a mortgage for the repairs the electronic brake module was over a grand if that went wrong and then there was the bill for fitting it that was in the region of 300 quid if you couldn't do it yourself  and ive used it on both my alahmbras ,although i dont think you are advised to use veg oil on the alahmbra with the pdi engine  the one i have now has the pre pdi engine fitted  i must say that the engine has always run cleaner on veg oil and a dam site quieter  no real lack of power  but slightly less mpg than diesel  .of course only down side was the frequency of fuel filter changes at first due to the amount of crap the veg oil cleans out of the fuel system .


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## Tezza (Feb 22, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Did ask Tezza a question asking for more info on the above, ie who was it affecting the most? How premature were these people dieing? but got a normal Tezza answer stating I wasn't suitably qualified to ask such questions.
> 
> It helps by making people ask themselves is it worth paying the extra cost or can I find an alternative method of travel. I agree some have no choice but to use their existing travel method.



God you people make me laugh so much.......Yes you got a normal tezza answer showing you the study's that have been done  and posted a link to show you their findings.. Now as far as I know...you haven't studied the effects, so NO! Your not qualified ...so get over it. Not my problem if you can't read or don't like what you read.


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## Tezza (Feb 22, 2017)

I will post it again just in case you missed the tezza answer to your question. And before you ask I do not know what colour socks they were wearing the day they died.

How Do Scientists Know 9,500 Londoners Died From Air Pollution? | Londonist.

so if your qualified to knock the answer or dispute it then on production of your qualifications I will formally say sorry on here. Remind me again what field of expertise you hold?


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## ricc (Feb 22, 2017)

Tezza said:


> I will post it again just in case you missed the tezza answer to your question. And before you ask I do not know what colour socks they were wearing the day they died.
> 
> How Do Scientists Know 9,500 Londoners Died From Air Pollution? | Londonist.
> 
> so if your qualified to knock the answer or dispute it then on production of your qualifications I will formally say sorry on here. Remind me again what field of expertise you hold?



all that article tells us is that the 9 thousand odd is a guess by the who about deaths in 2010.... no comment on whether pollution levels have changed in the interveining years.

i will comment as a degree qualified engineer
 media reports on the conclusions of statistical studies are meaningless unless you go back and find out the assumptions and methodoligy of the origional research.

its well known that "reasearch" methodology can be tailored to produce the results that suit. whoever is paying the bills
even down to excluding results that dont fit the expected on the grounds that they differ from the expected so there must have been an error  in measurement.

its also well known that sections of the media will draw opposite conclusions to any normal person looking at the same studies , so long as they can write a headline that fits their message they are happy ..


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2017)

jagmanx said:


> Cruise Liners
> Cargo ships
> etc etc
> seem to dump everything at sea.
> ...



Actually it was on a poster in the Royal Navy Submarine Museum at Gosport.


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2017)

Tezza said:


> I will post it again just in case you missed the tezza answer to your question. And before you ask I do not know what colour socks they were wearing the day they died.
> 
> How Do Scientists Know 9,500 Londoners Died From Air Pollution? | Londonist.
> 
> so if your qualified to knock the answer or dispute it then on production of your qualifications I will formally say sorry on here. Remind me again what field of expertise you hold?



Thank you Tezza, assuming that is the same link you posted I missed it because the info is not on the page you linked too but on a link at the bottom of the page. My qualifications are not of a medical or scientific nature and i was asking the questions to understand the issue rather than knock it. You go on the offensive far too often when asked questions - lighten up.

 Gain in life years and life expectancy from birth from a reduction of 1 μg m -³in PM2.5 and NO2 in 2010, sustained until 2114, EPA lag. Gain in life is between 8 to 41.6 days. That is estimated over a life expectancy of 105years. Anyone know what the target for reduction is?


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## Derekoak (Feb 23, 2017)

*Scrappage*

The government's new vehicle excise duty increases costs for new vehicles,  which pollute with co2 a lot, but do not affect old vehicles which continue as before. That seems to reduce the possibility of one stick to beat existing diesel owners with. That seems to increase the chance of a scrappage scheme slightly although I still think it unlikely.


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## harrow (Feb 23, 2017)

The reason for the new road tax rates was because the government were losing road tax money as new cars got cleaner.

Is is just a way to raise more cash :idea-007::idea-007::idea-007:


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## Derekoak (Feb 23, 2017)

*Vet*



harrow said:


> The reason for the new road tax rates was because the government were losing road tax money as new cars got cleaner.
> 
> Is is just a way to raise more cash :idea-007::idea-007::idea-007:



I am sure you are right. I just thought it showed government thinking. No nox specific tax only co2 pressure. However This was announced years ago to be introduced this April so perhaps it just shows old thinking and the new thinking is yet to come


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## Asterix (Feb 24, 2017)

Just came across this....

~20% Of Lorries Operating In Eastern Europe Use "AdBlue Killers" To Defraud Regulators, Research Finds | CleanTechnica


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## Derekoak (Feb 24, 2017)

*Scrappage*

The mayor of London again called for a scrappage scheme for old diesels and a "clean air act fit for the 21st century". He said London was following what other cities are doing and nothing is off the table. Paris and Berlin madrid and others have either banned old diesels or have car free days
 The government lost a court case brought by an environmental group. The court said the government was not doing enough about pollution in cities and gave the government until this April to produce a plan to deal with pollution as quickly as is possible or the court would impose severe penalties. Leeds birmingham Nottingham and Derby also exceed polluted air levels severely and have written to the government asking for more to be done. 
The WHO level for nox is 40, apparently 800 schools in London are in areas with over that, some as high as 70. NOx damages children's lungs particularly and the damage is at least partially permanent.
 Changes will continue I expect


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## Deleted member 64209 (Feb 25, 2017)

*Possible solution for those of us worried about our filthy polluting old bangers*



Derekoak said:


> The mayor of London again called for a scrappage scheme for old diesels and a "clean air act fit for the 21st century". He said London was following what other cities are doing and nothing is off the table. Paris and Berlin madrid and others have either banned old diesels or have car free days
> The government lost a court case brought by an environmental group. The court said the government was not doing enough about pollution in cities and gave the government until this April to produce a plan to deal with pollution as quickly as is possible or the court would impose severe penalties. Leeds birmingham Nottingham and Derby also exceed polluted air levels severely and have written to the government asking for more to be done.
> The WHO level for nox is 40, apparently 800 schools in London are in areas with over that, some as high as 70. NOx damages children's lungs particularly and the damage is at least partially permanent.
> Changes will continue I expect



I can't afford to replace my apparently lethal Sprinter camper for a new model that runs on rose petals and I dare say I'm not alone on here being increasingly worried as to whether I'll be allowed off of my driveway unless I hitch it up to a pair of shire horses... so... some easy research showed that the clever Brits have already dealt with nasty things in the air before... at the time we were having trouble dealing with the cause but dealt with the effect. The image shows Gertude Twix and Daisy Cartright demonstrating the ease to which my rediscovered solution is to use....




I've no doubt our Government has millions of gas masks stored away in various secret locations that are gathering dust [no pun intended]. So perhaps if us owners of these evil machines see if we can persuade the Government to allow us to club together and buy thousands of these surplus items and then send them on to various schools, old folks homes etc along our proposed routes in advance of our travels we might then show that we are serious about helping out but to the limit of our already over-stretched finances.....? 

Just a thought......


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## Asterix (Feb 25, 2017)

More in the news today...

Beware of buying diesel vehicles, Chris Grayling warns | Daily Mail Online


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## Derekoak (Feb 25, 2017)

*Polluting diesel camper versus lungs*



bedonwheels said:


> I can't afford to replace my apparently lethal Sprinter camper for a new model that runs on rose petals and I dare say I'm not alone on here being increasingly worried as to whether I'll be allowed off of my driveway unless I hitch it up to a pair of shire horses... so... some easy research showed that the clever Brits have already dealt with nasty things in the air before... at the time we were having trouble dealing with the cause but dealt with the effect. The image shows Gertude Twix and Daisy Cartright demonstrating the ease to which my rediscovered solution is to use....
> 
> View attachment 51090View attachment 51090
> 
> ...


Well it hard for all. I have a polluting diesel camper too but I also have a pair of lungs and sympathy for others with lungs. If I had to choose between them I know which I would choose! However it will probably not be that stark for a while.


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## ricc (Feb 25, 2017)

my old diesels  do less than  10k miles a year between them.... nowhere near the 40k a year ive done in the past,  most times i go anywhere near a city i use park and ride... (in a diesel bus) saves navigating and finding city centre parking.
for me the mpg and inherent reliability of a pre electronics diesel are the deciding factors in what vehicles i chose to run..(until rust has the final say)
so im not going to take much notice of any scrappage schemes or worry about not being allowed into cities.


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## harrow (Feb 25, 2017)

I think the Chris Grayling warning will soon be followed by "I told you so" as the taxes and costs increase.

I have a diesel car, purchased from brand new and it has only covered 16000 miles although it is 7 years old.

The car has never been driven to work and always been kept in the garage at home.

So I don't want to replace my car but you can see what is coming and that is diesels are going to be forced off the road.:sad::scared::sad:


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## Derekoak (Feb 25, 2017)

*Chris grayling*



harrow said:


> I think the Chris Grayling warning will soon be followed by "I told you so" as the taxes and costs increase.
> 
> I have a diesel car, purchased from brand new and it has only covered 16000 miles although it is 7 years old.
> 
> ...



If you read the article it is significantly different than the headline. He says if you want to travel into cities frequently perhaps you should think about your next vehicle not being diesel. He actually says diesels will continue in the future. So perhaps diesels driven out of cities, but not really off the road.


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## sparrks (Feb 25, 2017)

harrow said:


> I think the Chris Grayling warning will soon be followed by "I told you so" as the taxes and costs increase.
> 
> I have a diesel car, purchased from brand new and it has only covered 16000 miles although it is 7 years old.
> 
> ...



Rather begs the question do you need a car, especially when you take in the depreciation from new.


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## harrow (Feb 25, 2017)

sparrks said:


> Rather begs the question do you need a car, especially when you take in the depreciation from new.


The reasons for buying a diesel car when I did was because I was doing 180 mile return journeys each week.

We also used to also have another car.

With cancer and things changing I hardly use the car now, and really only need a small petrol car.


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## IanH (Feb 26, 2017)

Well I know what I'm going to do...................car wise.

Buy a brand new extremely efficient and more or less non polluting diesel car.

Given a year, I don't expect to pay more than 50% of its current (pre Grayling news) price

I won't drive it in London, you'd be mentally ill to drive anything in London, any other city that doesn't want my money, won't get it

Seems fairly simple to this non Greeniot engineer!!!:dance:


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## harrow (Mar 13, 2017)

*honest john today Future of diesel looks bleak as Government considers new ‘tax treat*

Future of diesel looks bleak as Government considers new ?tax treatment? | Motoring News | Honest John

Future of diesel looks bleak as Government considers new ‘tax treatment’
Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond said that the Government is exploring a new ‘tax treatment’ for diesel cars.

The statement is the strongest indication yet that the Government will introduce a new diesel tax, with changes likely to be announced at the Autumn Budget on 5 December 2017. 

Fuel duty on petrol and diesel has been frozen for seven years - at 57.9p-per-litre – but the Government’s stance on a new ‘tax treatment’ has sparked fears that diesels will face a new tax before the end of the year.

“The Chancellor has fired a warning shot to diesel drivers,” said RAC chief engineer David Bizley. “This uncertainty is bound to be of concern to private and business motorists alike, who will be wanting urgent clarity on just what the Government plan to do.”
Diesel car buyers are already facing higher VED, with the new road tax system set to add hundreds of pounds to the running costs of Britain’s most-popular diesels. However, with diesel emissions linked to 9500 annual deaths in London each year, the Government is facing increasing calls to do more to improve air quality in Britain's cities and encourage drivers to buy cleaner vehicles.

At this stage, it’s unclear what the ‘tax treatment’ would represent, but a new diesel scrappage scheme and/or an increase in diesel fuel duty are two ideas that have been speculated in recent weeks.
The UK’s automotive industry body, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), has warned against the anti-diesel agenda because of the negative implications that it could have on reducing CO2 emissions, but healthcare professionals argue that the move away from diesel is the only answer.

Mike Hawes, SMMT Chief Executive, said: “The automotive industry has some of the most challenging CO2 reduction targets...for this positive trend to continue, modern low emission diesels and AFVs such as plug-ins, hydrogen and hybrids must be encouraged with long term incentives.”

Dr Penny Woods of the British Lung Foundation said: “It’s a tragedy that on the 60th anniversary of the Clean Air Act, we continue see pollution limits broken in many parts of the capital, urgent action is needed to clean up London’s air.

“Air pollution contributes to 9500 early deaths in London every year. It worsens existing lung conditions, increases the risk of getting lung cancer and impairs child lung development.”

:rulez::rulez::rulez::rulez::rulez::rulez::rulez:


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## GWAYGWAY (Mar 13, 2017)

Funny how the diesel is blamed for NOX and particulates.  More Nox is stuffed out of the back of one Jumbo going from the stand taxying and takeoff to cruise than could ever be produced by cars in the same area in a month of Sundays. The LEZ came about to stop the pollution of Harrow and the surrounding area of  Heathrow. They said it was lorries on the A4 / M4.
Somehow they FORGOT  the airport with a takeoff and landing every 2 muinutes.  Now they want to extend it  with another  runway and a load more flights.
Have you been in Kings Cross railway station when one of the 125s starts up and fill the place with black smog, the old Deltics were really bad and even on the run they spewed smoke out like a steam train.
I think a total ban on tobacco would do more to improve the health of Londoners that these moves.


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## Deleted member 64209 (Mar 14, 2017)

GWAYGWAY said:


> Funny how the diesel is blamed for NOX and particulates.  More Nox is stuffed out of the back of one Jumbo going from the stand taxying and takeoff to cruise than could ever be produced by cars in the same area in a month of Sundays. The LEZ came about to stop the pollution of Harrow and the surrounding area of  Heathrow. They said it was lorries on the A4 / M4.
> Somehow they FORGOT  the airport with a takeoff and landing every 2 muinutes.  Now they want to extend it  with another  runway and a load more flights.
> Have you been in Kings Cross railway station when one of the 125s starts up and fill the place with black smog, the old Deltics were really bad and even on the run they spewed smoke out like a steam train.
> I think a total ban on tobacco would do more to improve the health of Londoners that these moves.



Couldn't agree more about aircraft. I'm currently staying on a farm in Hertford, yesterday afternoon was a 'sunny delight' as I sat on a bench in a field listening to a nearby busy woodpecker and other birdlife. The overhead drone of aircraft approaching Stanstead and Luton was constant but the vapour trails from them had 'hazed' the entire sky. 

Sure something badly needs to be done, it's just deciding the order of who to p*ss off first with more taxes I guess....


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## shawbags (May 2, 2017)

The amount of extra pollution caused by creating extra electricity to power the cars defeats the object , if you look after your vehicle, service it well , there's nothing more economical to run than an old diesel , bring back the old Perkins without all these ecu's and all that silliness , just add a few of the more up to date filters and stop trying to fix something that isn't broke , yet again it's all about money  .


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## molly 2 (May 2, 2017)

Technology is producing cleaner deisel vehicles every year . maybe one day they will be as clean as petrol ?.


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## gillypoof (May 5, 2017)

*screwing people down further with diesel*

Someone who produces a filter for diesel will make a killing.
Hmmm call me a conspiracy theorist but is it beyond the scope of ingenuity that there is not a bolt on off the shelf conversion kit filter.Could be part of the m.o.t.
If I wanted to get emission readings up in cities and towns what could I do? Slow traffic down and have lines of cars idling in one lane. Put a blanket speed restriction of 20mph everywhere.
Clamp down on bio fuel.
Nudge in the idea of driverless cars.
People whats the matter with you,how dare you want to get into the countryside and camp.No stay here,take a holiday here,Work sleep repeat and so on.The countryside is not for you,it has to be re wilded,off limits.
Don,t even think of keeping some other vehicle on your own land,not without insuring it,even if its got no wheels,I kid you not its in the pipeline.
Seen the purple conduit going in along the motorways,so called smart motorways.Financed by Rothschild inc,ready for pay as you go driving.
Oh and here comes the kicker,carbon tax.The powers that be cannot wait to stick that on everything we buy use consume.
So yes its all coming.Have a read of agenda 21/30.Watch this

ALERT ! Corporate Government Plans REVEAL Covert Weather Weapons and Economic Warfare - YouTube


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## Calum (May 5, 2017)

How many lez exempt diesel taxis queue at extended taxi ranks with engines running for ages? Especially at major train stations!!


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## Robmac (May 5, 2017)

Always bugged me that they go on about pollution, then they install chicanes etc. as traffic calming measures.

Vehicles then have to stop and wait for oncoming traffic to clear, then go up and down the gear box thereby burning more fuel. Absolute madness.


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## harrow (May 5, 2017)

gillypoof said:


> Someone who produces a filter for diesel will make a killing.
> Hmmm call me a conspiracy theorist but is it beyond the scope of ingenuity that there is not a bolt on off the shelf conversion kit filter.Could be part of the m.o.t.
> If I wanted to get emission readings up in cities and towns what could I do? Slow traffic down and have lines of cars idling in one lane. Put a blanket speed restriction of 20mph everywhere.
> Clamp down on bio fuel.
> ...



I am no expert at this but I know that there are available additional exhaust filters available for some commercial vans and lorries.
:wave::wave::wave:


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## BohemiVan (May 5, 2017)

*Thin end of the Agenda 21 wedge*

Hello everyone. 

I've summed up in a post some things I tried to pass on to another forum. Sadly, my words fell on deaf ears and enraged minds. 

Being a sucker for punishment, I am trying again here. Hopefully I will find a more receptive audience that does not stone me to death for having the temerity to speak.

BohemiVan: Diesel Scrappage Schemes & Clean Air Zones

Hoping for the best, prepared for the worst.


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## GWAYGWAY (May 5, 2017)

gillypoof said:


> Someone who produces a filter for diesel will make a killing.
> Hmmm call me a conspiracy theorist but is it beyond the scope of ingenuity that there is not a bolt on off the shelf conversion kit filter.Could be part of the m.o.t.
> If I wanted to get emission readings up in cities and towns what could I do? Slow traffic down and have lines of cars idling in one lane. Put a blanket speed restriction of 20mph everywhere.
> Clamp down on bio fuel.
> ...


I had not seen this before but the video  mentioned is a critical piece of information and should be seen by everybody. It is also in line with my researches  and does cover a lot of the matter that we are subjected to. PLEASE WATCH IT  it does seem to be long and rambling but if you go on Youtube look at others of the same type  and subject. There is a lot to be seen and is hidden from us on other means of communication.


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## GWAYGWAY (May 5, 2017)

harrow said:


> I am no expert at this but I know that there are available additional exhaust filters available for some commercial vans and lorries.
> :wave::wave::wave:


Yes they are  about £3000 and have a life of about three years, for taxis and vans.  Damn sight more for lorries.


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## witzend (May 5, 2017)

Is it worth buying a old diesel car/van and waiting for scrapage scheme to use it for a trade in


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## Deleted member 967 (May 6, 2017)

witzend said:


> Is it worth buying a old diesel car/van and waiting for scrapage scheme to use it for a trade in



Only if you live in one of the affected cities on the list.


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## ricc (May 6, 2017)

witzend said:


> Is it worth buying a old diesel car/van and waiting for scrapage scheme to use it for a trade in



open to offers on a 97 pug 306 1.9 td  , runs well , in use till last month , mot till late summer, but bodywork has characture.(dents and poor paint)


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## trevskoda (May 6, 2017)

The english like me seem to keep cars a long time 97 pug me 95 soda,most cars are scraped or turned to auction house after 3/4 years as no one wants them in case they break down costing lots to fix if you can find someone able to do so.
So cars over 4 years can be bought at little cost,when i bought my soda it was 7 years old with 70th costing me £10 ,scrap value.
do cars on mainland fetch much money after 4/5 years or are they just sent to the breakers like here.


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## delicagirl (May 6, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> The english like me seem to keep cars a long time 97 pug me 95 soda,most cars are scraped or turned to auction house after 3/4 years as no one wants them in case they break down costing lots to fix if you can find someone able to do so.
> So cars over 4 years can be bought at little cost,when i bought my soda it was 7 years old with 70th costing me £10 ,scrap value.
> do cars on mainland *fetch much money after 4/5 years* or are they just sent to the breakers like here.



the car marketeers, like all other marketeers, have convinced many car owners that it is not "cool" to own a non-you car...   which changes each year  -  obviously...... 

Now they are exploiting the power of  children   -  "drop me round the corner dad, i cant be seen in this car"    -  well walk then son  would be my response. 

since i bought my first vehicle in my early twenties - i always refused to buy new  (drive car from showroom, get home, oh dear, i have just lost £3000 ?????  -  why would anyone in their right mind do that ?)

 i have never paid more than £1100  for a car - and so i have had some crackingly good motors at very low cost - some have cost a few hundred and lasted 6-7 years with minimum repairs.....  

so many newish cars end up in the scrapyard, creating more and more waste ........


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## trevskoda (May 6, 2017)

Yes im sure when you were over her you saw for your self that almost all cars were current models with the look at me people driving them,i have had comments said to me like you are bringing the street down with that old car in you drive,zif i care.
I have had 17 years driving my old girl with only one big failure at the gates of the mot station when the g/box stuck in 5th .
Yep the sales teams do a good brain wash job on people,just got it i have no brain.:rolleyes2:


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## groyne (May 6, 2017)

The plan was to sell my self build this year and buy a newer van to convert. But the new Euro6 vans are just over budget. Now the question is, do I buy a Euro5, stretch the budget, wait a year or sell up and just go on normal holidays?


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## delicagirl (May 6, 2017)

scrapping diesel engined vehicles is not about reducing our freedom to roam, it is about the health of our grand-children and the following generations....   global warming and inner city pollution are major health issues in our current way of life and politicians are addressing those health issues as best they can -  its not ideal. 

I recall having to wear hideous face masks to protect my lungs as a child (before the Clean Air Acts came in) - from the smogs which were so foul that you literally could not see your hand in front of your face.....   if we don't stop fumey vehicles entering cities, then we could return to such appalling air quality and cause more and more illness for millions around the world who live in cities.

Parking outside and bussing into cities surely is not too onerous a thing ?   We have all got used to Park N Ride over the years...  so what is the difference with  increasing  the use of Emission-Free zones ?


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## groyne (May 6, 2017)

> Parking outside and bussing into cities surely is not too onerous a thing ? We have all got used to Park N Ride over the years... so what is the difference with increasing the use of Emission-Free zones ?



Totally agree with you, I've never willingly drove my van into a town or city centre, preferring to Park N Ride. When I have it's usually because there's no other option, a diversion or miss reading the Satnav.


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## GWAYGWAY (May 6, 2017)

witzend said:


> Is it worth buying a old diesel car/van and waiting for scrapage scheme to use it for a trade in


ONLY IF you want to get an electric car.  not for anything other than that.  Carbon fuels is out now.  No gas only electric as that is easier to charge for in the future.


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## shawbags (May 6, 2017)

gillypoof said:


> Someone who produces a filter for diesel will make a killing.
> Hmmm call me a conspiracy theorist but is it beyond the scope of ingenuity that there is not a bolt on off the shelf conversion kit filter.Could be part of the m.o.t.
> If I wanted to get emission readings up in cities and towns what could I do? Slow traffic down and have lines of cars idling in one lane. Put a blanket speed restriction of 20mph everywhere.
> Clamp down on bio fuel.
> ...



Lol , you have just written pretty mush what I think , looks like we are on a similar level when it comes to the powers that be shafting us every chance they get , they get away with it not because everyone is stupid but because we won't stand together and say no more ! .


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## shawbags (May 6, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> The english like me seem to keep cars a long time 97 pug me 95 soda,most cars are scraped or turned to auction house after 3/4 years as no one wants them in case they break down costing lots to fix if you can find someone able to do so.
> So cars over 4 years can be bought at little cost,when i bought my soda it was 7 years old with 70th costing me £10 ,scrap value.
> do cars on mainland fetch much money after 4/5 years or are they just sent to the breakers like here.



I've always driven older vehicle and looked after them to get my money's worth , since I started with campervans , first one a vw t2 , it's always been motorhome sir vans for self conversion , I've noticed over the last couple of years that vans , like old transits , that used to go for 6-700 quid are now treble that at times because people are having to keep older motors going , if it's safe , economical and practical I will always run older vehicles, trouble is these days it's hard to find a simple car or van without all the expensive electronics to keep them going , again more cost to the everyday bloke who is just keeping his head above the water , most of us just get by these days the best we can , it's not being rich it's being clever that allows us to keep going


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## trevskoda (May 6, 2017)

delicagirl said:


> scrapping diesel engined vehicles is not about reducing our freedom to roam, it is about the health of our grand-children and the following generations....   global warming and inner city pollution are major health issues in our current way of life and politicians are addressing those health issues as best they can -  its not ideal.
> 
> I recall having to wear hideous face masks to protect my lungs as a child (before the Clean Air Acts came in) - from the smogs which were so foul that you literally could not see your hand in front of your face.....   if we don't stop fumey vehicles entering cities, then we could return to such appalling air quality and cause more and more illness for millions around the world who live in cities.
> 
> Parking outside and bussing into cities surely is not too onerous a thing ?   We have all got used to Park N Ride over the years...  so what is the difference with  increasing  the use of Emission-Free zones ?



Prob with that is surly the bus is diesel.
And they told us petrol was eating the ozone,why ask us to go back to petrol ,has a fix for the ozone been found.


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## shawbags (May 6, 2017)

This isn't about entering cities they will shaft us on that anyway it's about the fact that the powers that be have contradicted themselves again and are now saying diesels is hells fuel , as said in another post why is it they cannot design a bolt on filter to restrict the pollution for a few quid ? They can land on the moon , how hard would it be ? . I totally agree with keeping pollution down of course I do it's just all the bulls&bit that comes with it and the extra cost to the motorist , as in us again , I used to make silencers for my
Mopeds when I was 16 that reduced noise without restricting power out of a bean can in my garden shed :hammer: I'm sure if I though about it a bit further I could have reduced pollution as well and I'm just a bloke off the street , it's ok for them to polite when the multinationals are putting money in their pockets for the privaledge .


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## Deleted member 967 (May 7, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> Prob with that (Park and Ride)  is surly the bus is diesel.



When I was young Newcastle upon Tyne Corporation had a large fleet of Trolley Busses that ran on electricity, that the corporation generated itself.  Today busses are being powered by methane gas or electricity, with induction charging at bus stops, rather than diesel.   Metro trams in Manchester run on electricity.   All public transport is not powered by diesel.  Diesel is even being phased out for taxis.  Metrocab have started an electric taxi production line in the last couple of months.

It is cities where the problem arise so Park and Ride is an answer.   Banning diesel and petrol vehicles from cities may clear the air, but over the whole country diesel will still be a useful economic power source.


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## trevskoda (May 7, 2017)

All buses here are derv and all farmers run derv cars to which most run red,groups put a small amount into a bank ac each mth so if caught the money is there to pay the £1000 fine for any member of that group,paddys not daft.:drive:


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## eddyt (May 7, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> All buses here are derv and all farmers run derv cars to which most run red,groups put a small amount into a bank ac each mth so if caught the money is there to pay the £1000 fine for any member of that group,paddys not daft.:drive:


 hi
   the fines only £500 over her for first offence. if you pay on the spot you
   can drive away and burn the red off. second or third offence they would
   sieze the vehicle.  plus they check every vehicle you own. they check
  how many miles you have done and work out how mutch tax you would
  have saved over the miles and charge you for it.


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## trevskoda (May 7, 2017)

eddyt said:


> hi
> the fines only £500 over her for first offence. if you pay on the spot you
> can drive away and burn the red off. second or third offence they would
> sieze the vehicle.  plus they check every vehicle you own. they check
> ...



Used to be £500 here and the taxi boys all had a £500 envelope on them to pay up on spot.


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## shawbags (May 7, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> All buses here are derv and all farmers run derv cars to which most run red,groups put a small amount into a bank ac each mth so if caught the money is there to pay the £1000 fine for any member of that group,paddys not daft.:drive:



Ok never knew that lol that's great :lol-049::lol-049:


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## Derekoak (May 8, 2017)

*Park and ride*

Even if some buses and ways to "ride" are diesel,  it is obviously better to have even a half full bus driving in than 30 separate cars. Clearly there is transitions going on and alterative fuel buses and taxis are being made. Farmers running on red diesel does not sound like part of a thread on pollution in cities. Petrol was always worse for climate change by producing more CO2, a green house gas. It still will be, so diesel may be better if burnt away from many lungs.
Ozone was mostly destroyed by CFC refrigerants which were banned a decade or more ago and the Ozone layer is recovering. One small success!


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## harrow (May 8, 2017)

Maybe nice Mr Jeremy Corbyn will buy us all new cars and then everybody will be happy.

:tongue::tongue::tongue:


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## ben1956 (May 10, 2017)

I have'nt read all the comments,so this may be a repeat.The governments of the world knew about the emissions 25yrs ago,but chose to not only ignore the information,but to hide it.The motor manufacturers lobby paid them well,as they continue to do.Screw the public once,no reason they cant do it again.


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## harrow (May 15, 2017)

*Things are starting to happen*

Improving air quality: national plan for tackling nitrogen dioxide in our towns and cities - Defra - Citizen Space

https://consult.defra.gov.uk/airqua.../supporting_documents/Consultation Letter.pdf


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