# A sneaky speeding crackdown.



## tiderus (Jan 22, 2015)

A few years ago I joined  Drive Protect, run by Adam Blair, after having been caught speeding three times is as many weeks.
No problems with that, but I needed to cover myself against another one.
Thank goodness it hasn't happened, and the info from them has been a help.

They do send me regular updates, and their latest one may be of interest to a few of us.
As it may be what's on the cards to come, (To raise more cash???).
So have a look below, and see what you think.
Rgd's Graham.

Hi GRAHAM, 

A sneaky speeding crackdown 
is set to catch motorists out on 
the M42 and M6 in Coventry 
and Warwickshire. 

Drivers could soon be booked 
for going just over the 70 mph 
limit. 

The threat comes from "stealth 
cameras" which were introduced to 
enforce variable speed limits on 
“Smart Motorways”. 

However it has now been 
disclosed that these cameras may 
be used to strictly enforce the 
70,mph speed limit during non 
variable limit hours. 

The West Midlands has two sections 
of Smart Motorways; the M42, to the 
West and the M6, to the North of 
Coventry. 

Also sometimes called “Managed 
Motorways”, the hard shoulder is 
opened as an extra lane to ease 
congestion at peak hours. 

Overhead gantries display variable 
speed limits, supposedly to keep 
the traffic flowing as efficiently 
as possible. 

Up until now the cameras have 
been switched off at quieter times, 
when no variable speed limits are 
in force. 

But that's all set to change... 

This misuse of these types of 
cameras has already happened 
before, in Kent… 

The first victims of the “stealth 
cameras” (also called Hadecs3) 
were on a section of the M25. 

668 motorists were caught in the 
first three months after they were 
switched on. 

Of those, 520 drivers and riders 
received tickets where the limit 
was set at exactly 70mph. 

Now this totalitarian crackdown is 
set to be rolled out in the near 
future on the M42 and M6... 

So much for the Freedom Bill that 
was introduced by the Government 
in 2012! 

If you’re driving in these areas any 
time soon, watch out. 

All the best, 

Adam


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

Nice one Graham, but prepare for flack from those who 'never speed'!


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Nice one Graham, but prepare for flack from those who 'never speed'!



Never ever speed? Really? Not even accidentally? Yeah right.


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## jagmanx (Jan 22, 2015)

*Very Nasty*

I used to own an X-type jaguar with all wheel drive.
If conditions and traffic are good 70mph is no problem and from a safety point of view even 80mph is not unsafe
Speedos are not reliable so it is entirely unreasonable to penalise somebody doing 71 mph.

I fully support Sensible spped limits and sensible penalties for speeding however this is OTT

I can now be smug and say it wont worry me as even on motorways I cruise at 55mph (sometimes 60) in my motorhome...
I no longer use a car !

No doubt I will now get caught out by a lower limit somewhere

Thanks for the "Heads up"


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

izwozral said:


> Never ever speed? Really? Not even accidentally? Yeah right.



So they claim on previous threads re speeding. I TRY not too, but I am easily distracted.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

jagmanx said:


> ........................No doubt I will now get caught out by a lower limit somewhere
> 
> Thanks for the "Heads up"



Apparently there will be more and more 20mph limits introduced in the next couple of years, which is fine provided they are put in the right places, I suspect that some will be introduced as a money spinner though.


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## maxi77 (Jan 22, 2015)

izwozral said:


> Never ever speed? Really? Not even accidentally? Yeah right.



But if I do and get caught I pay up and don't try and claim it is some kind of stealth tax. The rules are simple and well known, break them and you pay the price. The real problem is that for years speed limits have been poorly enforced so many expect to get away with it and are now upset they are being caught. If speedng fines are a tax then it is a voluntary tax, easy to avoid.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> But if I do and get caught I pay up and don't try and claim it is some kind of stealth tax. The rules are simple and well known, break them and you pay the price. The real problem is that for years speed limits have been poorly enforced so many expect to get away with it and are now upset they are being caught. If speedng fines are a tax then it is a voluntary tax, easy to avoid.



I disagree, speeding has always been enforced, it's an easy target as opposed to real crime. I'm not against speed limits, we need them. But I think that they are not always sensible, I got caught on a road with fields either side, there was a '30' sign obscured by trees. I thought it was a 40 limit and got nicked accordingly. I asked the policeman why it was a 30 limit and he said he didn't make the laws, just enforced them. About a mile away, I could drive through a village with houses either side at 40.

A few weeks later, that particular 30 limit was changed to 40.


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## Obanboy666 (Jan 22, 2015)

Try my best to stick to limits but not easy, went past a concealed mobile camera 2 weeks ago doing approx 33 mph. No letter has arrived yet, fingers crossed lol !


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 22, 2015)

Speeders    :mad2:    fine them heavily then hang the buggers that what i say  :wacko:


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

Obanboy666 said:


> Try my best to stick to limits but not easy, went past a concealed mobile camera 2 weeks ago doing approx 33 mph. No letter has arrived yet, fingers crossed lol !



If you were going by your speedometer, you were probably doing about 28ish, if going by the GPS, it would probably be an accurate 33. Some forces allow 10% + 2mph, but apparently, that will also be done away with in the next couple of years.


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## Bigpeetee (Jan 22, 2015)

As I've got older, the desire to speed had reduced, maybe I'm more sensible or that I'm concious of the fuel costs, but, like most people I do occasionally speed, on open roads with little traffic I may push the limit quite consciously, but even when I'm trying to be good, it's so easy to drift up in speed (why does speed drift up more often than down??) I've got into the habit of using the speed limiter in 30 or 40 limits but usually set it at 33 or 43 as it starts to come into effect too early and I can probably "get away" with a minor discretion!!

In the MH, I'm much more relaxed but am still surprised at how many drivers of 3050Kg+ MH's are un aware of the limits placed on them.

North Wales has in the past been one of THE hot spots for traffic cameras, usually in the most inappropriate but revenue gaining locations.


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

There are far too many road signs these days, including speeding signs. How many times have you seen a 40mph sign & just a few strides away, a de-restricted sign & visa versa. I don't know if it is just bad planning or some numpty has forgot to advise sign removal but I am seeing this more & more. If I am in a built up area with street lighting I assume it is 30mph & drive accordingly. Now we have 20mph zones, some are enforced 24/7, some are at certain times. If it is 20mph then keep it 20mph, it is distracting trying to read a timetable whilst driving & not always easy in poor light & weather conditions.

How many signs do you see: "This Motorway is Maintained by the Highways Agency"? These seem to be every half mile on some motorways & who gives a flying fig who maintains them just as long as they are maintained. Talk about blowing your own trumpet at the tax payers expense, they will not be cheap to produce or plant either.


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## hextal (Jan 22, 2015)

Guys, last time I checked, these were set to acpo guidelines. So 82 in a 70 from memory.

Additionally, at the time the highways agency were sending the data of the speeders to the police, who were refusing to do anything with that data, so no prosecutions.

It may have changed in the last few months, and each police unit has different focuses, but I'd treat the info with a pinch of salt.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

hextal said:


> Guys, last time I checked, these were set to acpo guidelines. So 82 in a 70 from memory.
> 
> Additionally, at the time the highways agency were sending the data of the speeders to the police, who were refusing to do anything with that data, so no prosecutions.
> 
> It may have changed in the last few months, and each police unit has different focuses, but I'd treat the info with a pinch of salt.



Again, the new cameras are set to zero tolerance and read your speed accurately having been tested by the Home Office, I believe, and no need for further re-calibration. So 70 in a 70 now.

(This information from a Traffic Awareness course).


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## Rob H (Jan 22, 2015)

*Speeding Crackdown ..*

Long time since I've passed through Birmingham and district at more than 20 mph, lol ..

Rob H.


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

USUALLY not all gantries have cameras, even though lines are painted on the road. And USUALLY if you can't see cameras on the other carriageway then there aren't any on yours. 

I do wonder how true this is though, as there has to be some tolerance. ACPO guidelines say 10% + 3mph IIRC. 

Take the above at your own risk lol.


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## piman (Jan 22, 2015)

Hello all, 

what does send a misleading message was the talk about increasing motorway speed limits which indicates that this crackdown (if it is one) is purely for revenue collection? 

Alec


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Again, the new cameras are set to zero tolerance and read your speed accurately having been tested by the Home Office, I believe, and no need for further re-calibration. So 70 in a 70 now.
> 
> (This information from a Traffic Awareness course).



Its not about camera calibration, but that of your car's speedometer.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Its not about camera calibration, but that of your car's speedometer.



The old cameras had to be re-calibrated to check accuracy, which is why some motorists got off of the fines after challenging the calibration. The new cameras are passed by the HO as being 100% accurate, so if travelling above the speed limit (no matter what your speedometer reads) you will be nicked and no reason to give any leeway.
It is illegal for a speedometer to under read, so all car manufacturers make them over read by a few MPH. So, if your speed is reading 70, you will be doing less.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 22, 2015)

I find it easier, although it annoys the hell out of some others on the road thesedays to stay within the speed limit :wave:

I`ve been caught once, mid november 1987 at 05.30am on the A66 in cumbria doing 56mph on a 50mph section !

Had a really busy day so it was foot to the floor and crack on.

Hadn`t seen another vehicle for well over 30 minutes then all of a sudden my mirror was full of police car flashing at me so i pulled  over.

It probably didn`t help when i asked him where the hell he`d come from and which stone he`d crawled out from ?

He then proceeded to book me :sad: might have got away with a warning if i`d been apologetic but i really wasn`t in the mood  :mad2:


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## runnach (Jan 22, 2015)

30.01mph in a 30.0 mph zone the offence is complete and always has been!.

However ACPO decided to allow tolerance and guidelines. Therein lay a problem each force could pretty much do its own thing.

Richard Brunstrum for example Chief of North Wales adopted a zero tolerance for years. A controversial figure showing journalists the picture of a de capitated motorcyclist ( without the families permission) Hid ing in horseboxes to zap pasiing motorists.

Invariably we all speed at some point,however dont want thefine well the answers simple!

Channa


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## runnach (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> The old cameras had to be re-calibrated to check accuracy, which is why some motorists got off of the fines after challenging the calibration. The new cameras are passed by the HO as being 100% accurate, so if travelling above the speed limit (no matter what your speedometer reads) you will be nicked and no reason to give any leeway.
> It is illegal for a speedometer to under read, so all car manufacturers make them over read by a few MPH. So, if your speed is reading 70, you will be doing less.


Rob, all speed cameras have required home office approval always have done ...LTi20/20 was a favourite for a while, challenging calibration is a difficult process as you know.

Channa


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

channa said:


> 30.01mph in a 30.0 mph zone the offence is complete and always has been!.
> 
> However ACPO decided to allow tolerance and guidelines. Therein lay a problem each force could pretty much do its own thing.
> 
> ...



I agree, although as said, my attention level is low, so if the wife is talking to me (simple answer to that I suppose), or I am listening to something interesting on the radio, I can creep over the limit. No excuses, I'm nicked.

What does annoy me though, is that I feel the punishment doesn't fit the crime, drive a few MPH over the limit, £80 fine and points, possibly lose your job and pay more insurance. Steal a car or 2 and go joy riding, get a warning and told don't do it again.


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## delicagirl (Jan 22, 2015)

my MH has a mileometer in kilometres per hour ... if you get my drift....   so I have to use my satnav all the time to ensure I am not speeding....   I can't think of any other way to be law abiding  ...   anyone got any other helpful ideas ? 

I cannot instantly look at a kilometre number and recalculate it in my head to its mile equivalent...


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> my MH has a mileometer in kilometres per hour ... if you get my drift....   so I have to use my satnav all the time to ensure I am not speeding....   I can't think of any other way to be law abiding  ...   anyone got any other helpful ideas ?
> 
> I cannot instantly look at a kilometre number and recalculate it in my head to its mile equivalent...



I set the volume on my GPS to loud, so that I hear the alarms better if I go over the speed limit. Previously, I had the volume turned off as it annoyed me, but I now find it necessary.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 22, 2015)

I split the difference between my speedo and the sat-nav.

60 on the speedo and 56 on the sat-nav is 58 in reality in my mind. 

It works for me being the honest law-abiding  all round nice chappy that i am  :dance:

I have been point free since that dark day in my distant past  :goodluck:


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## delicagirl (Jan 22, 2015)

Do folks think that the figures my satnav gives me for my moving miles-per-hour are accurate ?  or are they  low ?  or  high ?


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> Do folks think that the figures my satnav gives me for my moving miles-per-hour are accurate ?  or are they  low ?  or  high ?



I think they are fairly accurate, but I would err on the safe side and drive a couple of MPH under.


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> my MH has a mileometer in kilometres per hour ... if you get my drift....   so I have to use my satnav all the time to ensure I am not speeding....   I can't think of any other way to be law abiding  ...   anyone got any other helpful ideas ?
> 
> I cannot instantly look at a kilometre number and recalculate it in my head to its mile equivalent...



Mine too. I am thinking of making a thin circular strip with the miles calibrated by converting km's to miles then lightly sticking it to the face. I don't want to use a satnav all the time because I keep getting told off by the man that lives inside it, every time I creep over the speed limit.:bow::bow:


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## maxi77 (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> Do folks think that the figures my satnav gives me for my moving miles-per-hour are accurate ?  or are they  low ?  or  high ?



You will get jitter especially in towns where reception can be patchy, but most sets have an averaging system to smooth it out so your gps should be more accurate than your speedo.


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> my MH has a mileometer in kilometres per hour ... if you get my drift....   so I have to use my satnav all the time to ensure I am not speeding....   I can't think of any other way to be law abiding  ...   anyone got any other helpful ideas ?
> 
> I cannot instantly look at a kilometre number and recalculate it in my head to its mile equivalent...



Just found this which may help.

Speedometer Conversions


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

KPH speedo - just put sticky red dots at 30/50/70 or whatever you think you need. It's easy to guess the ones in between. 

GPS speed - slow to update to changes, and most don't correct for changes in height up and down hills. This will affect the reading.


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## runnach (Jan 22, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> GPS speed - slow to update to changes, and most don't correct for changes in height up and down hills. This will affect the reading.



Exactly the reason it wont stack as a defence in court 

Channa


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## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

izwozral said:


> Just found this which may help.
> 
> Speedometer Conversions



I inadvertently typed Delicia instead of Delica into Google & came up with this:

*TOP DEFINITION    
delicia
Means deliciuos and it is a Brazilian slang used for indicating that the person is enjoying the sex.
Que delicia, please don't stop! 
It's delicious, please don't stop!
by The Brazilian January 24, 2008*

Ooer sinorita, I wont stop if you don't want me to.:shag:


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## delicagirl (Jan 22, 2015)

izwozral said:


> I inadvertently typed Delicia instead of Delica into Google & came up with this:
> 
> *TOP DEFINITION
> delicia
> ...




So its you who started calling me Miss Delicious when I first came onto this forum a few short weeks ago !!!   you little tinker  !!!!     But I like you :lol-061:


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## mark61 (Jan 22, 2015)

Well. It's considered safe to do 130 kph in France in the right condition. If it's good for them, it's fine by me. We're all in it together after all.  Hopefully I'll never have to try and find out if that one works.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> my MH has a mileometer in kilometres per hour ... if you get my drift....   so I have to use my satnav all the time to ensure I am not speeding....   I can't think of any other way to be law abiding  ...   anyone got any other helpful ideas ?
> 
> I cannot instantly look at a kilometre number and recalculate it in my head to its mile equivalent...



You can buy a 'miles' face for your Speedo/odometer but not a simple job.  LOCKWOOD MITSUBISHI DELICA L400 WHITE(B) DIAL KIT SPEEDO METER 45M(B) | eBay

or swap the instrument cluster head.  Mitsubishi Delica L300 2.5 86-94 instrument cluster speedo dials clocks MR250179 | eBay


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## Polar Bear (Jan 22, 2015)

The police manage to have speedos that are accurate and calibrated fitted in their cars? 
They check them periodically by using the 'measured mile' sections that we often see signed up on country road.
So can we if we were prepared to pay for it? 
One way is to have tachograph fitted?


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## jim dalton (Jan 22, 2015)

I think its a myth the cameras have been set to exactly 70mph because:

Manufacturers are allowed tolerances of some   (copied) "±10%,   mainly due to the effect of temperature, pressure, vehicle load, and tire size. Manufacturers usually calibrate speedometers to read high to ensure that their speedometers never indicate a lower speed than the actual speed of the vehicle to ensure they are not liable for drivers violating speed limits." 

This was decided in the 60's by the society of Motor Manufacturers  and Trading association and is now enshrined in EU law.

It is the main reason that your GPS (often very accurate from what I have gauged in my truck) shows a different speed to your car.  Which is why many people claim that lorries are speeding in 40 and 50mph road works (its actually the other way round "generally") when they are not. I tend to slow to 45mph for 50 limits and  don't run into the back of traffic. Yes a hill will make a difference but not by much, unless you've just gone over a cliff!   

I know this speedo allowance is true, as I have known two of the former members of that committee, who have confirmed it. ( this calibration information is in the  public domain.  if you search for it) Plus In another life I worked as a Contract Test Driver at Millbrook for General Motors. (and no I don't have those little stickers on the side of my head  )

Because of this "legal" allowance on calibration it would be quite impossible for the police to prosecute you (in a court) for being "within" 10% of 70mph as any motor lawyer would be able to rip it to shreds. Because it makes it impossible to drive exactly at 70mph!

Hence the guidelines of +10% and 1-2 mph or so  in general for the police depending on various constabulary. And it will state this in your NIP should you be unlucky to get one

There are only two types of vehicle on EU roads that have accurately calibrated speedos, Theses are Goods Vechs over 3.5T and also police cars who often have an additional one fitted.  Should you have received an NIP withing this variance and your didi not have a calibrated Speedo fitted, then you can challenge it.

Interestingly , due to a highly unusual bout of commonsense. The speed limits for over 3.5T HGV vechs will change on April 6th 2015 thus:

Single carriageway will change from 40mph to 50mph 
Dual carriageway will change from 50mph to 60mph

Thank goodness for that!

Jim


PS Ive got 6 pts for sp30 btw for 56mph in a 50mph


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## jim dalton (Jan 22, 2015)

To add to the above a quick google also reveals:

In many countries the legislated error in speedometer readings is ultimately governed by the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) Regulation 39,[7] which covers those aspects of vehicle type approval that relate to speedometers. The main purpose of the UNECE regulations is to facilitate trade in motor vehicles by agreeing uniform type approval standards rather than requiring a vehicle model to undergo different approval processes in each country where it is sold.

European Union member states must also grant type approval to vehicles meeting similar EU standards. The ones covering speedometers [8] [9][10] are similar to the UNECE regulation in that they specify that:
The indicated speed must never be less than the actual speed, i.e. it should not be possible to inadvertently speed because of an incorrect speedometer reading.
The indicated speed must not be more than 110 percent of the true speed plus 4 km/h at specified test speeds. For example, at 80 km/h, the indicated speed must be no more than 92 km/h.

The standards specify both the limits on accuracy and many of the details of how it should be measured during the approvals process, for example that the test measurements should be made (for most vehicles) at 40, 80 and 120 km/h, and at a particular ambient temperature. There are slight differences between the different standards, for example in the minimum accuracy of the equipment measuring the true speed of the vehicle.

The UNECE regulation relaxes the requirements for vehicles mass-produced following type approval. At Conformity of Production Audits the upper limit on indicated speed is increased to 110 percent plus 6 km/h for cars, buses, trucks and similar vehicles, and 110 percent plus 8 km/h for two- or three-wheeled vehicles that have a maximum speed above 50 km/h (or a cylinder capacity, if powered by a heat engine, of more than 50 cm³). European Union Directive 2000/7/EC, which relates to two- and three-wheeled vehicles, provides similar slightly relaxed limits in production.


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## hextal (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Again, the new cameras are set to zero tolerance and read your speed accurately having been tested by the Home Office, I believe, and no need for further re-calibration. So 70 in a 70 now.
> 
> (This information from a Traffic Awareness course).



To put in context, most of the HADECS 3 have been operational in 70 mph zones for over a year.

As I say, i'd treat the info regarding 'zero tollerance' with a pich of salt until it's been confirmed by a reliable source.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

jim dalton said:


> ...........................Because of this "legal" allowance on tolerance it would be quite impossible for the police to prosecute you (in a court) for being "within" 10% of 70mph as any motor lawyer would be able to rip it to shreds. Because this allowance makes it impossible to drive exactly at 70mph!.........................



If your speedo is reading 70 and you are really doing less, then I would have thought it would reinforce their prosecution. You don't have to drive at exactly 70, just not above it.

Forces can and do prosecute for driving within 10% of the limit, as per the Welsh chappie.


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

hextal said:


> To put in context, most of the HADECS 3 have been operational in 70 mph zones for over a year.
> 
> As I say, i'd treat the info regarding 'zero tollerance' with a pich of salt until it's been confirmed by a reliable source.



I agree. As said, I got the information from a Traffic Awareness course, so I don't know how reliable a source they are. Although I would say that it is not in their interests to deter people from speeding!


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## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> But if I do and get caught I pay up and don't try and claim it is some kind of stealth tax. The rules are simple and well known, break them and you pay the price. The real problem is that for years speed limits have been poorly enforced so many expect to get away with it and are now upset they are being caught. If speedng fines are a tax then it is a voluntary tax, easy to avoid.



I think this way of thinking ignores many of the things that are done in the name of 'Safety', and ignores the things that have been done which lend credence to the 'stealth tax' idea.

There's a road I drive to work with a big sign telling us that there were 53 Accidents in 5-years on this road.  Its a main trunk road between 2 main towns and must host 10's of thousands of journeys every day - so the actual accident rate is tiny.  I bet if we got the data from the NHS, that more people in the same period were admitted to hospital for catching their foot in their trousers undressing for bed and falling over!

Yet on the back of these ridiculous figures, a main safe road with a 60mph limit forever has had it reduced to 50 and 40mph throughout.

Add in that the human brain makes an ongoing assessment of Risk, and automatically slows down when conditions warrant, and tends to speed up when conditions demonstrate lower risk (less traffic, no people about, good visibility etc etc.  The speed limits seem to be being systematically lowered so that they are well below a typical drivers inbuilt 'safe' threshold, so that they are constantly having to check themselves or risk being nabbed by ever-increasing stealthy methods trying to catch people out when conditions and the speeds they are travelling at present no increased risk to anyone.

Fixed cameras are supposed to deter drivers from speeding at dangerous junctions and accident black spots - they are allegedly there to PREVENT the offence in the first place, so that the black spot becomes safer.  So WHY has there been a move to change the colour from super-Hi-Visibility Yellow that reflected well at night to a dull yellow that disappears from sight in the dark, and also under Sodium Lights?  It is a clear and cynical step to trap drivers going a few mph over, and to the devil with the road safety.

You say 'if speeding fines are a stealth tax they are easy to avoid'.... well it is abundantly clear that there is a concerted effort to make them harder and harder to avoid, and the obvious answer to why this is, is to maintain or increase revenue/earnings for the Camera Partnership & the Tax Man.

Contractors like 'Go-Safe' don't run camera vans for Safety.... the truth is that they run them for PROFIT.  They ACT like its all about the Safety and make all the right noises, without actually bothering to mention that every time they successfully lobby for another speed limit reduction, or for another camera site, or for the right to start using infra-red camera vans to start pinching people on dead quiet, empty rural roads at night etc. etc.  that this opens up yet another revenue stream for them to profit from.

Yes we need Speed Limits, as not ALL motorists are half-competent drivers, and others will drive too fast at the wrong time/place without a yardstick - however draconian enforcement at all times of ever-lower limits with ever-more sneaky and underhanded methods is FAR removed from having a direct correlation with improved Road Safety.

I'm afraid that your view tacitly implies support for a private profit-making company to effectively persecute the vast majority of sensible, responsible motorists, and is I'm afraid rather naive.  Speeding and other Stealth Taxation (of various types of the motorist, and in general) is not some weirdo conspiracy theory for the loonies in the tinfoil hats - there's abundant information and material that supports this being widely seen and condemned by Joe Public as a genuine grievance.


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## jim dalton (Jan 22, 2015)

Speeding law is quite finite.  In theory the law allows you to be nicked for being 1mph over the limit. however the guidelines stand and can be contested by competent lawyers because of the reasons given previously

Robmac: I agree with you;  it is a speed "limit" not a speed "requirement". If your nicked doing over 70 in a car, then you have likely been reading well over that amount on your car speedo.

I also remember that particularly nasty little welsh wizard and this stance didn't last long because of the above. However I think since 2011 the extra 1-2 mph allowance has been removed in South Wales esp at the lower speed limits.

It should be remembered that the cameras are accurate and also should be placed according to specific requirements. A car speedo is allowed to not be as accurate. Its a fact and is favoured below your actual speed.

Oddly because of what happened to me last year,  I irresponsibly was looking 4 NIP's (with 3 pts existing), I have learnt that challenges to camera positions, calibration and reasons for placing have been also successful. an expensive lesson in keeping my licence at 6pts


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## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> If you were going by your speedometer, you were probably doing about 28ish, if going by the GPS, it would probably be an accurate 33. Some forces allow 10% + 2mph, but apparently, that will also be done away with in the next couple of years.



I don't know if it still applies as its old info.... but the Construction & Use Regulations for speedometers used to demand a degree of accuracy of +/- 10%.

Yet there are plenty of motorists who get prosecuted for a smaller margin than that.  So... the instrument fitted your car by Law, may not be required to have the necessary degree of accuracy to prevent you being nicked under the Law!

But of course - its all fair and above board, and you should never, ever speed - its your own fault if you get caught!

(BTW - your displayed speed can vary by as much as 5mph simply due to the difference between a new tyre and a worn one (due of course to circumference changes - so with new boots on your speedo will read less for a given speed than when worn.  These days that could possibly be enough difference to get you nicked).


----------



## izwozral (Jan 22, 2015)

delicagirl said:


> So its you who started calling me Miss Delicious when I first came onto this forum a few short weeks ago !!!   you little tinker  !!!!     But I like you :lol-061:



Guilty as charged but please don't mention my little tinker on an open forum:hammer::hammer::hammer:


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

We have various vans in work. Compared against sat nav most under read to varying degrees, but 2 agree 100% with the sat nav. 

So unless you have checked yours, it's risky to assume that you can sail through a 50mph with 55mph on the clock and be ok. It's rare, but not unknown for speedos to under-read by several mph too! 

I find sat navs to be very accurate and have been through loads of fixed cameras at the posted limit showing with no nickings btw.


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## jim dalton (Jan 22, 2015)

Indeed, unless your speedo is regularly calibrated then you cannot really trust it to be accurate, hence the allowance.   I'm not advocating that you can merrily drive at an indicated above limit speed, just that this latest myth has to be untrue because of the allowance

Trucks btw  have to be recalibrated every two years.  Ive noticed our Vans were always much more accurate than cars.  Tho my wifes Citreon C£ is almost spot on/

If the guideline allows 10% and you are within it. No magistrate in the EU can deny you the latency considering the manufacturing laws. even if they are Welsh. So if within the limit then challenge it  and they will go away. If your not, then be a man and accept it

Our MX5 used to under read progressively, so we used a GPS just to be sure.  Fun car but glad to have got rid of it TBH


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

I think that most GPS systems are pretty accurate on the flat. But as somebody said earlier in the thread, gradients come into play, and you possibly get a 'speed over ground' reading which would be different to a road speed.


----------



## Winker (Jan 22, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> KPH speedo - just put sticky red dots at 30/50/70 or whatever you think you need. It's easy to guess the ones in between.
> 
> GPS speed - slow to update to changes, and most don't correct for changes in height up and down hills. This will affect the reading.


Apparently it doesn't.


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## Winker (Jan 22, 2015)

It is/was illegal to use cc in Belgium. 
Cc is uneconomical and causes boredom,  but I still se it at work though. P.s., you will still end up speeding on ddescens unless you are wary.


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## Wooie1958 (Jan 22, 2015)

Are the Camera warnings allowed over there ?


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## vindiboy (Jan 22, 2015)

Reading alll the posts on this subject I come to the conclussion that you are all clever and wise people so why not just adhere to the posted speed limits, you know the big signs with numbers on them that notify you of the maximun speed you are allowed to drive at on a particuler stretch of road? :rulez:


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## Winker (Jan 22, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> I don't know if it still applies as its old info.... but the Construction & Use Regulations for speedometers used to demand a degree of accuracy of +/- 10%.
> 
> Yet there are plenty of motorists who get prosecuted for a smaller margin than that.  So... the instrument fitted your car by Law, may not be required to have the necessary degree of accuracy to prevent you being nicked under the Law!
> 
> ...



5 mph!!!  I really don't thin so. On a lgv drive axle a new same for same tyre will give you +1mph max at 56 so a relatively small car tyre with a ar shallower tread….. 5MPH!!!  NEVER.  Scaremongering raising it's head I fear.


----------



## Winker (Jan 22, 2015)

vindiboy said:


> Reading alll the posts on this subject I come to the conclussion that you are all clever and wise people so why not just adhere to the posted speed limits, you know the big signs with numbers on them that notify you of the maximun speed you are allowed to drive at on a particuler stretch of road? :rulez:


Because they are mostly outdated or in place due to the fear of fuel rationing. 
The recent uprising by hgv drivers re the A9 specs cameras and the raising of speed limits when they forced the issue is proof of this.


----------



## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

Yup, some of us are not perfect. 

I sometimes used to not do my homework at school too. I'm doomed!


----------



## maxi77 (Jan 22, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> I think this way of thinking ignores many of the things that are done in the name of 'Safety', and ignores the things that have been done which lend credence to the 'stealth tax' idea.
> 
> There's a road I drive to work with a big sign telling us that there were 53 Accidents in 5-years on this road.  Its a main trunk road between 2 main towns and must host 10's of thousands of journeys every day - so the actual accident rate is tiny.  I bet if we got the data from the NHS, that more people in the same period were admitted to hospital for catching their foot in their trousers undressing for bed and falling over!
> 
> ...



Speed limits have been around for years they are not some modern device to persecute drivers. Yes some limits may be low to your or my opinion but they are the limits. I choose not to pay the fines by the simple method of trying to keep within the limit. It is not that difficult. One aspect of speed limits that many ' I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want' brigade miss is other road users have a right to expect that vehicles on any stretch of road do abide by the limit so that they can make informed decisions when they see a vehicle. 

As for safety we in this country has an enviable record of improving road safety to some of the lowest accident raids at the world. For any family affected by a road death as mine has been this is a good thing though you seem to think other peoples grief is of little consequence. Just to put it in perspective my brother was killed by a driver who was exceeding the speed limit and who had failed to have his vehicle properly serviced. Like many he obviously knew better than the law.

Even minor accidents cause un-needed inconvenience to the innocent party like a friend who was left without transport for several weeks because another driver failed to sea the traffic lights were at red and ran into the back of a line of stationary cars. Much the same as missing a speed limit sign, driving at least without due care and attention.

Basically I have no sympathy for those who choose to put themselves at the risk of getting a speeding ticket, it was their choice.


----------



## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> Speed limits have been around for years they are not some modern device to persecute drivers. Yes some limits may be low to your or my opinion but they are the limits. I choose not to pay the fines by the simple method of trying to keep within the limit. It is not that difficult. One aspect of speed limits that many ' I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want' brigade miss is other road users have a right to expect that vehicles on any stretch of road do abide by the limit so that they can make informed decisions when they see a vehicle.
> 
> As for safety we in this country has an enviable record of improving road safety to some of the lowest accident raids at the world. For any family affected by a road death as mine has been this is a good thing though you seem to think other peoples grief is of little consequence. Just to put it in perspective my brother was killed by a driver who was exceeding the speed limit and who had failed to have his vehicle properly serviced. Like many he obviously knew better than the law.
> 
> ...



A very unfair post in my opinion. We are talking about inadvertently creeping over the speed limit, not screeching around like boy racers!

And my family has also been affected by a road death, and believe me, I know about grief.


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

Winker said:


> Apparently it doesn't.



What?


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## maxi77 (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> A very unfair post in my opinion. We are talking about inadvertently creeping over the speed limit, not screeching around like boy racers!
> 
> And my family has also been affected by a road death, and believe me, I know about grief.



Inadvertently creeping over the speed limit is driving without due care and attention in reality. I think there is nothing unfair in bringing to peoples attention the consequences of their behavior.


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## ozzy1955 (Jan 22, 2015)

*Motorway speeding*

They have been using this trick on the M4/M5 junction at Bristol, it was reported last week 200 odd drivers caught doing just over 70. Watch out.:mad1:


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

German motorways anyone? I'm told there are still a few people living there, so can deduce that speed does not equal death.


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## antiqueman (Jan 22, 2015)

*location*



Wooie1958 said:


> Speeders    :mad2:    fine them heavily then hang the buggers that what i say  :wacko:



Did Preston have a famous hanging judge?:hammer:


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## merc the berc (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Nice one Graham, but prepare for flack from those who 'never speed'!



I can honestly say that i never speed, ever. My truck does 20 to the gallon, i can not afford to speed....


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## n brown (Jan 22, 2015)

being a city driver today is a very busy and stressful occupation. so many roadsigns,so many changing limits- 70 on the ring road,but then suddenly it's 50,into town at 40 ,up a side road -whoa ! 20 ! then 30,oh now 20 again !i find this speed very soporific,and not being surrounded by aggressive drivers makes me relax and i notice a lot less , bit like doing 50 for miles on motorways.
i try to read all the signs,hard to tell which are important- ok i must 'think bike' ,and i won't 'use my mobile phone while driving ' [snappy one that !] wonder how many speeding fines it cost to put up these large illuminated signs that tell me every sunday that the park'n'ride is closed,and other totally unnecessary info - while i'm trying really hard not to kill myself or anyone else.
so i went 4mph over the limit and i'm sorry


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

merc the berc said:


> I can honestly say that i never speed, ever. My truck does 20 to the gallon, i can not afford to speed....



Everybody speeds at some point, police, judges, even my Traffic Awareness course tutors said that they cannot be 'speed aware' 100% of the time and could get caught out even though it would mean instantly losing their job.

Some people will never concede this though.


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## merc the berc (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Everybody speeds at some point, police, judges, even my Traffic Awareness course tutors said that they cannot be 'speed aware' 100% of the time and could get caught out even though it would mean instantly losing their job.
> 
> Some people will never concede this though.



Fair do's, i may go slightly over in a thirty zone, i'm not really that bothered about speed limits tbh, i only drive at 50mph on motorways just to save fuel, if i had a more economical vehicle i'd floor it.......:drive:


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 22, 2015)

merc the berc said:


> SNIP
> i only drive at 50mph on motorways just to save fuel, if i had a more economical vehicle i'd floor it.......:drive:



I've spent most of my later life with thirsty monsters so it's second nature to me to drive like a saint, _most of the time..._


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> I've spent most of my later life with thirsty monsters so it's second nature to me to drive like a saint!_Most of the time..._



I've spent much of my life with thirsty monsters. This has often stopped me from driving at all!


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## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

Winker said:


> 5 mph!!!  I really don't thin so. On a lgv drive axle a new same for same tyre will give you +1mph max at 56 so a relatively small car tyre with a ar shallower tread….. 5MPH!!!  NEVER.  Scaremongering raising it's head I fear.



Well I get about a 5mph difference for a given rpms in top gear when I fit a new rear tyre on my motorcycle ( the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre. Drive is via a crownwheel and shaft drive, much in the same manner as a rear wheel drive car might).  Tread depth is 7mm when new.

But then maybe Im just making it up to sensationalise.


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Well I get about a 5mph difference for a given rpms in top gear when I fit a new rear tyre on my motorcycle ( the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre. Drive is via a crownwheel and shaft drive, much in the same manner as a rear wheel drive car might).  Tread depth is 7mm when new.
> 
> But then maybe Im just making it up to sensationalise.



What   W anker   has failed to realise is that truck tyres are massive, so the tread is a small percentage of the diameter. On a small car/bike tyre the percentage is much different, so the error on speed will be higher.


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## Ivory55 (Jan 22, 2015)

Anybody traveled from leicester to Peterbourgh on the a47 recently ? From skefington there is miles of 40mph signs then a small strip of cones in the road making single lane each way, then miles of 40 mph signs with absolutely nothing going on. Also signs saying mandatory, and there was no end of road works sign or national speed limit sign saying it was over. When it's like this is it any wonder nobody takes any notice if they can see little point in it, unless it's to get lots of speeding fine money in !


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 22, 2015)

Robmac said:


> I've spent much of my life with thirsty monsters. This has often stopped me from driving at all!



Piston broke eh?


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## Robmac (Jan 22, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> Piston broke eh?



:lol-053:


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## QFour (Jan 22, 2015)

The Sat Nav in our MH gets really arsie if I go over the limit. Beeps and whistles till you slow down. I really hate these draconian rules. Bring back the 70's when it was just bad luck if you happened to find a black box at the side of the road and an officer a bit further on to take your details. Really makes you wonder if it's worth putting some different plates on now the tax disc is history. If you go near an ANPR camera they will just take a picture of you but it will not be in the system. Only way they may get you is one of the ANPR Interceptors :scared:

so I think I would go for .. FK 69 YOU .. :lol-053:


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

Is that 2mm off all of it or the chicken strip?

lol.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> Inadvertently creeping over the speed limit is driving without due care and attention in reality. I think there is nothing unfair in bringing to peoples attention the consequences of their behavior.



While I can sympathise and understand that you will have a strong opinion that is influenced heavy by your loss,  I also think that your response was a wee bit strong.

Many, many drivers are now concerned that they need to focus so much on the speedo so they dont creep over a city limit for a moment that they feel it is counterproductive to safety.  It takes a blink of an eye for a pedestrian to step out from behind a parked car, and if youre constantly checking your instruments the odds of not seeing them early enough skyrockets.

There's  always a counter opinion that has some validity, and road safety is never as black and white as to simply just obey every law. You need to think about what you are doing, and read the road and anticipate the actions of others.

We are expected to use our discretion and common sense in many instances where LESS speed than the posted limit is needed, such as driving down a narrow busy high st at lunchtime, where 30 or even 20mph would be obviously dangerous with so many pedestrians crowded about.  So you dont pedantically stick to the posted speed, right?

Yet you are punished if you exercise that same kind of sensible discretion in reverse, such as doing 45mph in a 40mph urban dual-carriageway that has perfect visibility and is utterly deserted.

Like all things some perspective is needed.

All of us have seen some awful incompetent and unsafe drivers who seem to drive by numbers and are clearly out of their comfort zones, and who never get near a speed limit.

Speed doesn't  kill.  Bad driving kills, and bad driving includes inappropriate speed for the conditions and environment.  Its just easier and more profitable to collect speeding fines than it is to educate and train drivers to possess the right skills and attitude (as well as police and get rid of the truly dodgy bad drivers) .

I guess you won't  agree, and I in no way wish to make light of your tragic loss.  Im just pointing out that its a LOT more complex than safe meaning just travelling at the posted speed.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 22, 2015)

Sport Touring stuff, Metzeler Z6 or Pirelli Something for best performance & life on my bike which is about 230kg unladen.  Continental touring might see me get 6k off a rear, usually 5 and a bit.
both the above dont have a centre line tread and the greatest depth of tread  from new, so give me best wear and seem to suit the bike.


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## st3v3 (Jan 22, 2015)

Good stuff. Never been into bikes, but have a mate who is


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## eddyt (Jan 22, 2015)

Obanboy666 said:


> Try my best to stick to limits but not easy, went past a concealed mobile camera 2 weeks ago doing approx 33 mph. No letter has arrived yet, fingers crossed lol !



you are safe you haye to get the letter within two weeks asking the drivers name if you dont they cant enforce it
but they will send a second letter later giving you a second chance to tell them the driver you will have to send this one in
and enclose a letter saying you did not get the first one in 14 days so the ticket should be cancelled.
they will probably not cancel it so wait for the summons for court which has to be issued in 6 months or it is not enforcible
due to the statue of limitations. When you go to court tell the magistrates you did not get it within 14 days. show them copies 
of the second letter and the date you wrote in explaining the situation. the letters are not sent out with recorded post so can not 
prove you got it. they have to let you off.


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## campervanannie (Jan 22, 2015)

izwozral said:


> I inadvertently typed Delicia instead of Delica into Google & came up with this:
> 
> *TOP DEFINITION
> delicia
> ...


lowering the tone and going off topic naughty izzywizzy.


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## Winker (Jan 22, 2015)

*st3v3*

Circumference
Read and learn,  then go remove the egg from your face.


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## izwozral (Jan 23, 2015)

campervanannie said:


> lowering the tone and going off topic naughty izzywizzy.



That's me all over CamperFanny, I have the attention span of a gnat & the mind of a sewer rat but to get back on topic, I never used to speed, I preferred Red Lebanese.


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## John H (Jan 23, 2015)

Wooie1958 said:


> Speeders    :mad2:    fine them heavily then hang the buggers that what i say  :wacko:



Don't judge all speeders by the actions of an irresponsible minority! :rolleyes2::lol-049::fun::wave:


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## Robmac (Jan 23, 2015)

Exactly, the technology exists to restrict cars to the speed limits with sensors in the vehicles and on the roads, however, it will not be intoduced. I wonder why?

In the mean time, cars are still produced that can travel at 200mph.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

Robmac said:


> Exactly, the technology exists to restrict cars to the speed limits with sensors in the vehicles and on the roads, however, it will not be intoduced. I wonder why?
> 
> In the mean time, cars are still produced that can travel at 200mph.



I think they won't do this as they know that

a) it'd dry up a VERY lucrative revenue stream - they don't want to eliminate speeding even though they could - but its a great excuse to emply the technology to rake in the cash instead

b) there's the very real problem that (despite the NEVER speed etc.) nonsense, that such a level of removal of control and responsibility from the driver is to invite litigation for the makers and indeed the Government when a device either fails and results in an incident, or simply limits and restricts the ability of the driver to avoid an incident through having the ability to do so taken from him/her by the technology itself.

Most 'switched on' (no pun intended) drivers will have seen potential crash scenario situations evolving around them that would only be aggravated by hard braking (the default fallback action in EVERY situation for EVERY poor Driver btw - box themselves into a bad situation and then make it worse by automatically stamping on the middle pedal) and require evasive action which often involves accelerating OUT of the danger zone being created by someone else's error.

Speed-limiting technology would create chaos as all those rubbish drivers who don't look, use mirrors and plan ahead properly drove right up behind slow lorries on m-ways and then threw themselves in front of overtaking drivers, or who went to make an overtake and the limiter cut in and left them without space and time to return to their side of the road etc etc.

I know they limit lorries, but lorries require a whole different driving technique (much better observation & planning for a start) so auto-limiting cars is nightmare scenario that only the dumbest bureaucrat would ever sanction.


----------



## Robmac (Jan 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> I think they won't do this as they know that
> 
> a) it'd dry up a VERY lucrative revenue stream - they don't want to eliminate speeding even though they could - but its a great excuse to emply the technology to rake in the cash instead
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that I completely agree there. We already have speed limiting on all vehicles, based on the size/power of the engine, it would just mean that drivers would have to get used to a different power band. It would be easy for some sort of GPS based system telling a vehicle what speed limit it is in and restricting the limit accordingly. Obviously drivers would then know that overtaking would be foolish unless the power of the car allowed it. The scenarios you state already exist but at faster speeds, which are relative to speeds of the rest of the traffic.

Don't get me wrong, I would never advocate such a scheme. I am just saying that the government don't give a stuff about whether we live or die, it is just about revenue, if they were serious, they could stamp out speeding fairly easily.


----------



## maxi77 (Jan 23, 2015)

I remember those days when policemen directed traffic instead of traffic lights and a road was busy if you saw another car. Even if we had as many plods on traffic as we had then there is no way they could cope with the volume of traffic today. Lets face it if you get caught speeding it is your fault not the policeeor the cameras fault and if you were not aware you were speeding you were driving without care and attention, and if you were aware then you knew the risks and should thus accept the penalty gracefully.

I would suggest that it would be much morr appropriate to push for a review of limits which would hopefully see some go up and some go down, I know many country roads where 40 is too fast never mind the current 60. Equally I know places where an extra 10 mph would be quite safe. I would also suggest that variable speed limits should be used more, there are plenty of places where the current low limits are only really needed for a few hours every weekday yet are applied 24/7.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

I spend so much of my driving time making space, time and allowances for lousy drivers (who of course never realise that they are bumbling around making a nuisance of themselves while others get out of their way) that its just not funny.

Just driving along the motorway (the EASIEST place there is to drive ****!) you see a steady stream of nuggets who

a) cannot check their mirrors in good time to move out to overtake, so you have to slow down / speed up / check before them and change lane yourself, as you KNOW they'll either slam the anchors on, or just swerve out into your path.

b) are so incompetent that changing lanes is just too fraught with danger for the, so they just drone along in (usually) the centre lane (as it avoids having to compensate for slip road arrivals and lorries so they can switch their brain off and mindlessly drift along)

c) Are too daft to work out that you need to accelerate up to speed on an on-ramp so that you can safely join a fast-moving stream of traffic, so they slow down or even STOP on a ramp, then join a 60mph stream at such a slow speed its inviting a crash up the back from Mr Dozy (see b. above), or they'll pull across as 25mph across the bow of a 42-tonne artic doing 56mph who simply cannot shed 30mph in 50 metres.

These are just 3 basic examples that I see in droves every single day and have to make allowances for so that they don't involve me in their ineptitude - and not a single speeder amongst them.

 But so many anti-speeding butter-wouldn't-melt preachers [in my experience often not very good drivers tbh]  fail to realise that means "too-slow" just as much as it means "too-fast", together with poor observation, planning and indeed attitude.

half-decent, attentive drivers spend a lot of time unnoticed, saving the bacon of the inept.


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## Robmac (Jan 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> I spend so much of my driving time making space, time and allowances for lousy drivers (who of course never realise that they are bumbling around making a nuisance of themselves while others get out of their way) that its just not funny.................................



I agree with all of your points. I've said before, I do 100k per year and have seen most kinds of bad driving and the resulting accidents.

Unfortunately the speed cameras cannot pick up idiotic behaviour! I was playing devils advocate a bit with the speed limiting thing  But who know's, there is research going on into autonomous cars which will take a lot more control from the driver!


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

Robmac said:


> I'm not sure that I completely agree there. We already have speed limiting on all vehicles, based on the size/power of the engine, it would just mean that drivers would have to get used to a different power band. It would be easy for some sort of GPS based system telling a vehicle what speed limit it is in and restricting the limit accordingly. Obviously drivers would then know that overtaking would be foolish unless the power of the car allowed it. The scenarios you state already exist but at faster speeds, which are relative to speeds of the rest of the traffic.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I would never advocate such a scheme. I am just saying that the government don't give a stuff about whether we live or die, it is just about revenue, if they were serious, they could stamp out speeding fairly easily.



The Highway Code used to (I have to own up here I've not read the latest, though we all really should as they do change) state that it was perfectly acceptable to exceed the limit (briefly) in order to effect a safe overtake and to spend the minimum amount of time on the opposite side of the road.

Imagine accelerating past a vehicle only to find he/she puts her foot down and 'hangs you out to dry' (getting more common as it seems drivers become more stroppy than they used to??) and then hitting a limiter!  Lethal.

Its not really relevant to heavy goods as they aren't in a position to accelerate quickly regardless, so limits on HGV's are a whole different kettle of fish in terms of their effect and impact than on cars.

I can state hand-on-heart with certainty that I would have been injured or killed several times over the years when riding my motorcycle -  without having the facility to accelerate out of a dangerous situation.  You are of course very vulnerable on a bike, and what dents a wing in a small shunt can be fatal for a motorcyclist, and its often a bikes agility & acceleration that are your best friends.


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

Robmac said:


> I agree with all of your points. I've said before, I do 100k per year and have seen most kinds of bad driving and the resulting accidents.
> 
> Unfortunately the speed cameras cannot pick up idiotic behaviour! I was playing devils advocate a bit with the speed limiting thing  But who know's, there is research going on into autonomous cars which will take a lot more control from the driver!



I tend to think that they'd be far better off getting people onto a decent public transport infrastructure before putting us all into automated individual delivery crates.
But they won't - as the right to private independent transport is now seen as a right, and any move to change that is a known vote-killer.  Plus of course the motorist contributes a vastly disproportionate amount of tax revenue that will never be relinquished.

The biggie I'm with you on is the fact that Camera's are "one-trick-ponies" where someone can be a god-awful driver and a total menace and risk to themselves and everyone around them - but they'll never be apprehended by a Scamera.

As has been much repeated on this thread and is abundantly clear - Road Safety may be a great excuse and validation, but is NOT the primary function nor indeed an achievement of Speed Scamera's.


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

A classic example yes.

At Stormy Down about Pyle, Mid-Glamorgan they replaced 2 Scamera's (one for each carriageway) that cover one junction off a back lane that I have NEVER seen anyone come out of, and the other which heads out to the old airfield where there's a concrete works and a few other bits that do see lorries coming and going in daytime.  This part is at the beginning / end of a national speed limit / 50mph change (of course).

They took down the Hi-Viz ones and replaced them with the matt yellow 'stealth' ones that vanish in low light and sodium lighting - so that (unless you KNOW they are there) you'll find next to impossible to pick out at night.  So despite the fact that those (allegedly) dangerous junctions are still there at night - there's a deliberate step been taken to camouflage the Scamera's  - so instead of warning motorists with a Hi-Viz Scamera and thus making the section 'safer'  there's a cynical step to risk the public so they can punish them AFTER the "dangerous" speed offence has been committed.

Road safety my arse :raofl: !


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## st3v3 (Jan 23, 2015)

Winker said:


> Circumference
> Read and learn,  then go remove the egg from your face.


W anker, I'm fully aware of circumference, and how it's a product of diameter. What's your point?

Let's take extremes to prove i'm correct. 

A very small wheel is 5mm in diameter moving at a fixed speed along the road. The axle will be rotating. Now add 5mm of tread to the wheel. It's diameter is now 15mm. What will happen to the speed of the axle? If you guessed it will be significantly slower give yourself a gold star. 

Now, repeat with a 5 metre diameter wheel, and add the same 5mm of tread. How much will the axle speed change? Very little. 

So, wheel diameter has an effect on the speed error. 

Like I said earlier


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> I would suggest that it would be much morr appropriate to push for a review of limits which would hopefully see some go up and some go down, I know many country roads where 40 is too fast never mind the current 60. Equally I know places where an extra 10 mph would be quite safe. I would also suggest that variable speed limits should be used more, there are plenty of places where the current low limits are only really needed for a few hours every weekday yet are applied 24/7.



On this we can certainly agree 100%.

Lowering speed limits is seen as improving safety.  There's a long rural section near me that has had many nasty accidents over the years. so they put double-whites down the whole section (despite no junctions or bad bits etc) and dropped the limit to a blanket 40mph (from 60mph).  The road has no layby's or any places really where a Scamera van can park so all the locals know the chances of a speed check are very small.

The problem is, is that all the crashes were historically from people doing between 80 & 100mph and then failing to make the curves.  At 60mph the road would not challenge even a below-average drivers ability (at least I fervently hope this is true for everyone's sakes!).

Now - if you've a mind to break a limit by these kind of margins, then you aren't going to drive this section differently just because they've dropped the limit to 40mph.
Guess what - I drove it recently and there was a fresh bunch of flowers tied to a telegraph pole (and its far from the first time since this road has been 'made safer').  All the lowered limit has done, is to make everyone EXCEPT those crashing on it creep along up this road.


----------



## Winker (Jan 23, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> W anker, I'm fully aware of circumference, and how it's a product of diameter. What's your point?
> 
> Let's take extremes to prove i'm correct.
> 
> ...


Try keeping it civil pease. 
I also know these things,  so a motorbike gains 5mph with a tyre change,  so a Mini on 10" wheels by your abysmal reckoning would gain in the region of 10mph? 
Also the bikey fella did not state at what speed the 5mph gain was attained. 

As it happens,  I am running my car on 15" rims for the winter,  the tyres when new also had a 7mm tread,  and now that they're down to 4mm the gain in speed is less. Than 1mph at 70, so! 

Think about it,  wind your head back in,  and keep the insults to yourself dumb lad.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 23, 2015)

Winker said:
			
		

> Try keeping it civil pease.



Lets's review:



Winker said:


> Apparently it doesn't.



(Random 'up yours' reply that made no sense)



Winker said:


> 5 mph!!!  I really don't thin so. ....….. 5MPH!!!  NEVER.





Winker said:


> go remove the egg from your face.





Winker said:


> Think about it,  wind your head back in,  and keep the insults to yourself dumb lad.



And I need to keep it civil. Hmmmm.

Anywho...





			
				Winker said:
			
		

> I also know these things



Yea, I'm not sure you do, as your comments on this thread prove.



			
				Winker said:
			
		

> so a motorbike gains 5mph with a tyre change,  so a Mini on 10" wheels by your abysmal reckoning would gain in the region of 10mph?



I'm not sure how you've done your maths (finger in the air perhaps?) but I'll give you - and you go ahead and tell me exactly why not - that 10" wheels will have a greater speed error than a 15" wheel. We proved that with your gold star remember? I'm not sure on the actual amount without knowing the tyre sidewall dimensions.



> Also the bikey fella did not state at what speed the 5mph gain was attained.



I'm not sure what your point is? We proved the bike will have a greater increase that the truck with your gold star remember? It would be fair to assume that he's talking around the maximum permissible speed in the UK, but instead of effectively calling him a liar it might have been useful to ask him...



> As it happens,  I am running my car on 15" rims for the winter,  the tyres when new also had a 7mm tread,  and now that they're down to 4mm the gain in speed is less. Than 1mph at 70, so!



Again, you don't understand the importance of the variables. What's the sidewall compared to 'bikey fella' and how have you measured speed?


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

The difference in speed / rpms?  It was a while ago when I did the last back to back old tyre v new tyre and paid it much attention, but itd have been at a typical cruising speed of between a bit naughty and less than instant ban on a motorway.

The really noticeable effect is when you stay at a constant throttle  and speed and go from a straight to a big lean through a corner and back upright.  As of course the diameter on the edge of the tyre is far less than on the crown, you can distinctly hear the revs rise and fall significantly at the same speed.  125cc racers used to exploit this effective lower gearing phenomena by momentarily flicking the bike on its side when accelerating up the gears on a straight to assist acceleration with limited hp.

I admit I havent looked at the speedo to note the indicated speed variance - its generally a good idea to look where youre headed when doing this!


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> 125cc racers used to exploit this effective lower gearing phenomena by momentarily flicking the bike on its side when accelerating up the gears on a straight to assist acceleration with limited hp.



Very interesting, and now you mention it - I've seen that!


----------



## hextal (Jan 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> The Highway Code used to (I have to own up here I've not read the latest, though we all really should as they do change) state that it was perfectly acceptable to exceed the limit (briefly) in order to effect a safe overtake and to spend the minimum amount of time on the opposite side of the road.
> 
> Imagine accelerating past a vehicle only to find he/she puts her foot down and 'hangs you out to dry' (getting more common as it seems drivers become more stroppy than they used to??) and then hitting a limiter!  Lethal.
> 
> ...



Was chatting to some police bikers on the specifics of overtaking speed. Their response, which may of course not reflect policy, was that being on the wrong side of the road for as short a time as possible was more important than keeping to the limit at that moment.

They said if someone executed a safe 'brisk' overtake then slotted back in and dropped back to limits they would not have an issue. Obviously, 'brisk' still has certain limits mind.


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 23, 2015)

A mate built a trike which used a 1275cc Leyland BMC engine on a mini front subframe at the rear - it was a really weird and clever bitsa.

 As you might imagine on 10" mini  wheels it accelerated quicker but revved higher and topped out at a much lower speed than it did if we put 13" morris wheels on the back.

I got it flat out approaching 100mph on Pendine Sands seeing what  it could do (it blew a water hose & scalded my bloody foot is what it did :mad2

Cant tell you what that would have done to a conventional speedo reading though, as it used a front wheel speedo drive off a Honda 250.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 23, 2015)

hextal said:


> They said if someone executed a safe 'brisk' overtake then slotted back in and dropped back to limits they would not have an issue. Obviously, 'brisk' still has certain limits mind.



I had a biker mate around 5-10 years ago clocked over the speed limit on an overtake. He fully admitted it, but with the help of a good lawyer got off - in court - as it was acceptable for some reason.

I don't know the detail, but have no reason to believe any of that to be incorrect.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 23, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> I got it flat out approaching 100mph on Pendine Sands seeing what  it could do



Up to that point it sounds like a hoot!


----------



## Wooie1958 (Jan 24, 2015)

Lancashire Constabulary Training and Development Centre at Hutton is a minute or so from where i live.

It`s an old brochure but pages 39 and 40 might interest you   http://www.lancashire.police.uk/Content/UploadedImages/7356_Training_school_web.swf

The main driving school is here and the roads around here are crawling with Police doing their training both in cars and on motorcycles.

It`s quite a sight when you a dozen or so Police motorcycles in full flow.

The downside is we see the result when the pupils get it wrong and the training vehicles ( cars and bikes ) are returned here on recovery trucks.

They all have " Police Driver Training " stickers discreetly placed on both the cars and bikes and that`s how we know it`s the training vehicles.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 24, 2015)

Stop talking common sense David - it's frowned upon!

I think it's the people who _don't_ drive for a living that would benefit the most though - your sunday drivers and those that never drive except the odd shopping trip. 

Either way, more education needed.


----------



## izwozral (Jan 24, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Stop talking common sense David - it's frowned upon!
> 
> I think it's the people who _don't_ drive for a living that would benefit the most though - your sunday drivers and those that never drive except the odd shopping trip.
> 
> Either way, more education needed.



Don't flatter him, we will never hear the end of it.:idea-007::idea-007:


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 24, 2015)

I suspect that as technology has improved speed cameras have become more reliable and precise and there is no longer a need to offer a small percentage of speed above the legal limit before prosecuting the motorist for exceeding the speed limit. The outcome of this will obviously favour the authorities and hit the motorist.

It may only be a matter of time before it becomes compulsory to have our journeys recorded on in car computers in order that they can be checked by the police, and drivers prosecuted retrospectively for speeding.

The biggest difficulty I have in maintaining the speed limit in urban areas is the motorist who feels I'm not travelling fast enough and who then sits on my tail for a mile or two looking for a chance to overtake or attempting to get me to speed up. Either way, driving within given speed limits can sometimes put me at far more  unease and sometimes in real danger of accident.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 24, 2015)

James, the percentage error allowance is because your vehicles speedometer is not calibrated.


----------



## hextal (Jan 24, 2015)

I went on one of those police rider assessment courses a while back, where a police rider follows you around for a few hours. Really good fun, though having a police bike 4ft from your back end took a bit of getting used to.


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 24, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> James, the percentage error allowance is because your vehicles speedometer is not calibrated.



I wasn't referring to the vehicle's speedometer.

I understand that speedometers are factory calibrated  to over read the speed of the vehicle. i.e. register the speed of the vehicle as faster than it is actually travelling, and that the variation in this calibration can be up to 10% (later fitting of smaller or larger wheels will affect this). There is no reason therefore to be penalised for speeding in a 70mph area if one's speedometer is reading 70mph; you could in fact be travelling at 63mph. 

The point I was attempting to make is that the only reason I can see for Local Authorities adding some allowance before prosecuting is to be sure of a conviction. With more accurate and reliably tested speed cameras there would be no need for LAs to add any leeway and they could, if they wished enforce what has earlier been referred to as 'zero tolerance'.


----------



## maxi77 (Jan 24, 2015)

jamesmarshall said:


> I suspect that as technology has improved speed cameras have become more reliable and precise and there is no longer a need to offer a small percentage of speed above the legal limit before prosecuting the motorist for exceeding the speed limit. The outcome of this will obviously favour the authorities and hit the motorist.
> 
> It may only be a matter of time before it becomes compulsory to have our journeys recorded on in car computers in order that they can be checked by the police, and drivers prosecuted retrospectively for speeding.
> 
> The biggest difficulty I have in maintaining the speed limit in urban areas is the motorist who feels I'm not travelling fast enough and who then sits on my tail for a mile or two looking for a chance to overtake or attempting to get me to speed up. Either way, driving within given speed limits can sometimes put me at far more  unease and sometimes in real danger of accident.



Now that is strange I have little difficulty keeping to the speed limit in built up areas, I veryyquickly get the sense of my speed from the movement of he surroundings as I pass along, and I never allow myself to be bullied into speeding by tailgaiters. In extreme cases I will pull over and let them go past, their problem then if they get caught. 

No one can make you break the speed limit, you choose to do it yourself.


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 24, 2015)

maxi77 said:


> Now that is strange I have little difficulty keeping to the speed limit in built up areas, I veryyquickly get the sense of my speed from the movement of he surroundings as I pass along, and I never allow myself to be bullied into speeding by tailgaiters. In extreme cases I will pull over and let them go past, their problem then if they get caught.
> 
> No one can make you break the speed limit, you choose to do it yourself.



Like you Maxi, I have pulled over on occasions to allow someone tailgating me to overtake, or alternatively have slowed down further to be able to emergency stop if necessary without being tail ended. It's not about being bullied it's more about having to take responsibility for someone else's poor driving in order to avoid being involved in an accident.


----------



## Siimplyloco (Jan 24, 2015)

jamesmarshall said:


> SNIP
> 
> It may only be a matter of time before it becomes compulsory to have our journeys recorded on in car computers in order that they can be checked by the police, and drivers prosecuted retrospectively for speeding.



Tachometers have been doing just that for many years now, and now that they have digital technology, the drivers' opportunities to fiddle them are somewhat diminished! When I was doing QA work with big truckers like Widdowson Haulage in the 80's they were required to submit all - or some, I can't remember which - for analysis. I didn't find out what the result was!
John


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 24, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> Tachometers have been doing just that for many years now, and now that they have digital technology, the drivers' opportunities to fiddle them are somewhat diminished! When I was doing QA work with big truckers like Widdowson Haulage in the 80's they were required to submit all - or some, I can't remember which - for analysis. I didn't find out what the result was!
> John



It seems that technology is boxing us in in all aspects of our lives and as I said, I suspect it will only be a matter of time before we must have something similar to a tachometer in the car.


----------



## Winker (Jan 24, 2015)

jamesmarshall said:


> It seems that technology is boxing us in in all aspects of our lives and as I said, I suspect it will only be a matter of time before we must have something similar to a tachometer in the car.



Most cars do have tachometers these days.


----------



## Winker (Jan 24, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Lets's review:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The sidewall will not be significantly more than the bike tyre,  certainly the overall diameter of the tyre will be less than the bike one on a 17" rim. 
Also it is obvious bikey fella is meaning a 5 mph gain on his speedo when the engine is at a set rev speed. That is even more nonsense,  no matter what size of tyre you put on the speedometer will still register the same speed for the same rpm in the same gear. 
His 5mph assertion is total bollocks!


----------



## piman (Jan 25, 2015)

Hello Winker,

"That is even more nonsense, no matter what size of tyre you put on the speedometer will still register the same speed for the same rpm in the same gear. "

 Absolutely, but the speedometer error will alter, and as speed increases tyre diameter does marginally due to centrifugal force, probably not significant at the relatively modest speeds we now drive on the roads.

Alec


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:


> Most cars do have tachometers these days. &#55357;&#56841;



I guess I didn't make it clear that I was referring to something that does a little more than count the engine revolutions. I was thinking more of a device that will record a journey from start to end that will record any and all traffic infringements, such as parking on double yellow lines, wrongly entering a box junction and speeding that you could be prosecuted for later.


----------



## jim dalton (Jan 25, 2015)

These devices have been tested and use telemetry and GPS data to show what's going on. I think it would be unlikely that they would come into use for infringments tho as there will be public uproar.  However, given another generation of compliant non rebellious kids, I'm sure that will change.  However if you look at the current Insurance Black Box technology you will see that they already exist and the insurance company now phone up or write to you for explanations.

Later this year I believe, the trails in Birmingham, Cardiff, Swindon will start with driverless cars. That is a technology that will take off and it will be interesting to see how it will work in law (eventually). It will also be interesting to see how long it will take to transfer to PCV and HGV's if the public accept it.

Imaging just sitting there admiring the view in your campervan as you travel around Europe without having to touch the controls!!

Jim


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:
			
		

> The sidewall will not be significantly more than the bike tyre,  certainly the overall diameter of the tyre will be less than the bike one on a 17" rim.


So the speed error will be more on the mini wheel right?



			
				Winker said:
			
		

> Also it is obvious bikey fella is meaning a 5 mph gain on his speedo when the engine is at a set rev speed.





GRWXJR said:


> your displayed speed can vary by as much as 5mph simply due to the difference between a new tyre and a worn one (due of course to circumference changes - so with new boots on your speedo will read less for a given speed than when worn.  These days that could possibly be enough difference to get you nicked).



Where did he mention engine revs? Not that it matters, as:



			
				Winker said:
			
		

> no matter what size of tyre you put on the speedometer will still register the same speed for the same rpm in the same gear.



Is completely incorrect as explained to you by David.




			
				Winker said:
			
		

> total bollocks!



Let's keep it civil please.


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 25, 2015)

Im afraid that Mr Winker is determined to robustly defend what he says regarding the basic physics of a change in diameter affecting a fixed ratio speedometer gearing system.

This is despite the fact that (as others have tried to point out) he is making a total hash of it and his statements are entirely incorrect.

This 'bikey fella' can prove this both theoretically and factually should he like to try to learn and understand the basic principles.

Example 1.  Put a fixed gear speedometer onto the rear wheel of a penny farthing, then ride until you indicate 30mph.  Then switch the drive to the front wheel,  and see if you achieve the same speedo reading without having to pedal and travel a LOT faster.

Actually, if the example above doesnt make the penny drop, then I'm not sure if anything will get through.

This is a case where the phrase " making the most noise doesn't make you right" should be rolled out.


----------



## jamesmarshall (Jan 25, 2015)

Quite right David, thankyou.


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 25, 2015)

A tachograph is only really a verg well calibrated sppedo  thats checked and set n on the actual vehicle in question.

Make s significant change in tyre diameter and it will be incorrect in the same manner.

Smaller wheel = over read
Bigger wheel = under read


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> The difference in speed / rpms?  It was a while ago when I did the last back to back old tyre v new tyre and paid it much attention, but itd have been at a typical cruising speed of between a bit naughty and less than instant ban on a motorway.
> 
> The really noticeable effect is when you stay at a constant throttle  and speed and go from a straight to a big lean through a corner and back upright.  As of course the diameter on the edge of the tyre is far less than on the crown, you can distinctly hear the revs rise and fall significantly at the same speed.  125cc racers used to exploit this effective lower gearing phenomena by momentarily flicking the bike on its side when accelerating up the gears on a straight to assist acceleration with limited hp.
> *
> I admit I havent looked at the speedo to note the indicated speed variance - its generally a good idea to look where youre headed when doing this!*



And THAT is my point exactly!!! 

There will be no indicated speed variance,  therefore the accusation of your post being senationalist nonsense!!! 
You would only see a difference on a gps unit,  not a speedometer,  and a 5 mph gain with an extra 12mm on the diameter of a tyre the size you quoted would not happen at any remotely sensible road speeds. The maths can be done,  try it.


----------



## Siimplyloco (Jan 25, 2015)

I don't think it should be forgotten that the primary purpose of the tachograph is to record the driver's hours spent at the wheel, thus providing evidence that statutory breaks have been taken. Given that the vehicles are governed, nicking for speeding might be a secondary issue.
John


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Well I get about a 5mph difference for a given rpms in top gear when I fit a new rear tyre on my motorcycle ( the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre. Drive is via a crownwheel and shaft drive, much in the same manner as a rear wheel drive car might).  Tread depth is 7mm when new.
> 
> But then maybe Im just making it up to sensationalise.



Giving you a generous allowance here by stepping up a size rather than a wear allowance on a tyre, you would be going 2.8 mph faster at 100mph withe the tyre,  check for yourself bikey boy and stiff. 

P.s. the tyre diameters are different by 18mm,  and the tyre wear on bikeys tyre would account for only 14mm IF going from totally bald to new. 


Tire Size Finder (optional):  
56 motorcycle tires available in 180/55-17 @ BikeBandit.com
Understanding metric sizes
Current Tire Size: 180/55   R  17
New Tire Size:180 /60  R  17
Your Calcs (x):


Speedometer Difference 
Speedo Reading	Actual Speed
20 mph (32.19 km/h)	19.44 mph (31.29 km/h)
25 mph (40.23 km/h)	24.31 mph (39.12 km/h)
30 mph (48.28 km/h)	29.17 mph (46.94 km/h)
35 mph (56.33 km/h)	34.03 mph (54.76 km/h)
40 mph (64.37 km/h)	38.89 mph (62.59 km/h)
45 mph (72.42 km/h)	43.75 mph (70.41 km/h)
50 mph (80.47 km/h)	48.61 mph (78.23 km/h)
55 mph (88.51 km/h)	53.47 mph (86.05 km/h)
60 mph (96.56 km/h)	58.33 mph (93.88 km/h)
65 mph (104.61 km/h)	63.19 mph (101.7 km/h)


Over to you st3v3.


----------



## Siimplyloco (Jan 25, 2015)

Excuse me for asking an innocent question, but why all the fuss over a small difference in speed reporting? Life's too short to worry about it, especially when driving a 4.5 tonne motorhome at leisure!
John


----------



## GRWXJR (Jan 25, 2015)

Fair play, youve gone to one hell of an effort to win a point  !

I do note though that you have at least now decided that a change in diameter does alter speedo reading.

 Im far too lazy to check your stats, so I'll take your word for it on the numbers :banana:


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 25, 2015)

Good, some actual maths.



Which backs up everything I've posted. Please go ahead and quote anything I've posted that isn't factually correct.

And still you demonstrate a lack of understanding:



Winker said:


> There will be no indicated speed variance,  .... You would only see a difference on a gps unit,  not a speedometer,



The speedometer drive isn't taken from the gearbox.


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Well I get about a 5mph difference for a given rpms in top gear when I fit a new rear tyre on my motorcycle ( the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre. Drive is via a crownwheel and shaft drive, much in the same manner as a rear wheel drive car might).  Tread depth is 7mm when new.
> 
> But then maybe Im just making it up to sensationalise.





st3v3 said:


> Good, some actual maths.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is,  not that it makes any difference smart lad. Anychange in tyre size will require recalibration if the speedo is to remain accurate. 
Given that gps units are not acceptable in law at the moment. 

Next?  

Edit for st3v3, quote from Gixxer he has conveniently overlooked???? * (the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre.)*


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Fair play, youve gone to one hell of an effort to win a point  !
> 
> I do note though that you have at least now decided that a change in diameter does alter speedo reading.
> 
> Im far too lazy to check your stats, so I'll take your word for it on the numbers :banana:



Read my post way back,  I quoted a 1mph gain at 56mph on a truck,  same for same,  new tread,  and the site I quoted from backs that up too. Reason for taking so long is that my posts have to go through mods,  free member an that. 

It's always worth listening to pro's before getting in disputes with them Gixxer.


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:


> It is,  not that it makes any difference smart lad. Anychange in tyre size will require recalibration if the speedo is to remain accurate.
> Given that gps units are not acceptable in law at the moment.
> 
> Next?  *L
> *



I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.



I have noticed. 

It's a recurring problem you seem to have,  but ztick with it,  the light may yet get turned on stiffy babe. 

Damned pur dick tiv txt,  grrrrrrr.


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> Excuse me for asking an innocent question, but why all the fuss over a small difference in speed reporting? Life's too short to worry about it, especially when driving a 4.5 tonne motorhome at leisure!
> John


But obviously not too short for you to comment though.


----------



## delicagirl (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:


> Giving you a generous allowance here by stepping up a size rather than a wear allowance on a tyre, you would be going 2.8 mph faster at 100mph withe the tyre,  check for yourself bikey boy and stiff.
> 
> P.s. the tyre diameters are different by 18mm,  and the tyre wear on bikeys tyre would account for only 14mm IF going from totally bald to new.
> 
> ...







this has to be one of the most boring pointless threads on here... ...  can't you guys just agreed to differ and go to bed ????   please


----------



## Siimplyloco (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:


> But obviously not too short for you to comment though.



Well, I found just enough time to make my protest!:scooter:
John


----------



## Winker (Jan 25, 2015)

Winker said:


> 5 mph!!!  I really don't thin so. On a lgv drive axle a new same for same tyre will give you +1mph max at 56 so a relatively small car tyre with a ar shallower tread….. 5MPH!!!  NEVER.  Scaremongering raising it's head I fear.





GRWXJR said:


> Fair play, youve gone to one hell of an effort to win a point  !
> 
> I do note though that you have at least now decided that a change in diameter does alter speedo reading.
> 
> Im far too lazy to check your stats, so I'll take your word for it on the numbers :banana:



N.b., I always have said tyre size is a consideration,  the dispute was to what extent it mattered, you would have to be doing around 200mph for the 5mph gain you claimed,  and you 2 dears ^^^ feel free to knock off any time you like.  X


----------



## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

Winker said:


> I have noticed.
> 
> It's a recurring problem you seem to have,  but ztick with it,  the light may yet get turned on stiffy babe.
> 
> Damned pur dick tiv txt,  grrrrrrr.



See, this is the problem with you. I've asked perfectly politely for you to elaborate on something you've posted, but instead of doing so you've tried (very poorly) for a cheap shot.

Probably because you've realised it won't end well if you do I suppose.



Winker said:


> N.b., I always have said tyre size is a consideration,



Quite the opposite. _*I've*_ been saying that. Here:



st3v3 said:


> .......truck tyres are massive, so the tread is a small percentage of the diameter. On a small car/bike tyre the percentage is much different, so the error on speed will be higher.



you replied with:



Winker said:


> Circumference
> Read and learn,  then go remove the egg from your face.


----------



## ricc (Jan 26, 2015)

back in the dim mists of time i had a mk2 escort 1.1 litre estate car,   it had drum brakes on the front.     

no problem a pair of front struts from a 1.3 saloon in the scrap yard will give me disc brakes.

the 11 inch wheels wouldnt fit over the calipers

another trip to the scrap yard ....for a set of `13 inch wheels.....


gearings a bit high , wont go up hills

another visit to the scrap yard 

1.6 litre capri gt engine

went like sh one t  of a shovel

speedo was a bit off ... had to follow a mate at 30, 50, and 70 and stick a dot on the speedo at the critical speeds.

overall it was a change from 155 11 inch tyres to 175  13 inch tyres.


----------



## Winker (Jan 26, 2015)

Winker said:


> 5 mph!!!  I really don't thin so. On a lgv drive axle a new same for same tyre will give you +1mph max at 56 so a relatively small car tyre with a ar shallower tread….. 5MPH!!!  NEVER.  Scaremongering raising it's head I fear.


 *post #58
*


st3v3 said:


> What  * W anker  * has failed to realise is that truck tyres are massive, so the tread is a small percentage of the diameter. On a small car/bike tyre the percentage is much different, so the error on speed will be higher.


 *post #77
*


st3v3 said:


> See, this is the problem with you. I've asked perfectly politely for you to elaborate on something you've posted, but instead of doing so you've tried (very poorly) for a cheap shot.
> 
> Probably because you've realised it won't end well if you do I suppose.
> 
> ...



And who said tyres have a part in the calculation first??


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## piman (Jan 26, 2015)

Hello GRWXJR,

"I do note though that you have at least now decided that a change in diameter does alter speedo reading."

I agree with Mr Winkler's original statement that overall tyre diameter does not affect the speedometer reading, how can it as all the speedometer is reading are the output revolutions of the drive. It matters not if larger or smaller diameter wheels are fitted, the speedometer will read the same for the same output rpm. You will note, on older cars, a revolutions per mile number etched on the dial. On the same model car but with different final drive ratios, e.g. manual or automatic transmissions required a different tpm speedometer to maintain accuracy which is no different than using a varying diameter drive wheel.

Alec


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## izwozral (Jan 26, 2015)

I am getting TYRED of this TREAD.:lol-053:


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## GRWXJR (Jan 26, 2015)

piman said:


> Hello GRWXJR,
> 
> "I do note though that you have at least now decided that a change in diameter does alter speedo reading."
> 
> ...



Ok, have it your way - its not that important.  The actual variance isn't enough for anyone to have worried about it overmuch, as a speedo has always just been an indication of speed with a +/- 10% degree of accuracy.  I mere;ey made the point that, as we are now being measured and prosecuted with exactitude, using sophisticated means, that to rely on a speedo reading as being 'close enough' potentially isn't reliable enough (though the vast majority under-read).

You are actually incorrect though about it not changing the reading - its basic gearing/maths - it HAS to.  If you read distance & speed based on the rolling circumference of a circle, then that reading HAS to vary when you alter the circumference (unless you also alter the gearing to compensate - which the instruments do not do).

The truth is, is that cars are fitted with generic instruments with a permissable degree of (in)accuracy that now exceeds and is 'slacker' than the exacting measurements and methods used by the Scamera's to punish you if you stray from a limit.

I'm sorry, but the change of tyre diameter affecting a speedometer reading isn't open for debate - it is a fact.

However, believe differently if you wish :idea-007::rulez:


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## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

EDIT: apologies Alec, GRWXJR has posted that on his bike, you're correct. 

Alec, we're talking a motorbike which as per David's post some time further up, takes the speedo drive from the front wheel.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 26, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Alec, we're talking a motorbike which as per David's post some time further up, takes the speedo drive from the front wheel.



Actually, while they USED to almost exclusively, most motorcycles in recent decade + now read from the gearbox, or from the gearbox output shaft with a sensor instead of a cable.  But they still read off the rotation of the (rear) wheel indirectly through the transmission to get the information to translate as a speed reading.

My bike is an '04 and reads off the gearbox.


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## Winker (Jan 26, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Alec, we're talking a motorbike which as per David's post some time further up, takes the speedo drive from the front wheel.



We are NOT!! 

Pay attention man,  Gixxer's bike has it's speedo drive from the transmission,  i.e. directly linked to the REAR WHEEL!


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## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

You might have mentioned that earlier lol.


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## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

Winker said:


> We are NOT!!
> 
> Pay attention man,  Gixxer's bike has it's speedo drive from the transmission,  i.e. directly linked to the REAR WHEEL!



I had posted that I'd seen his reply, before yours appeared. And you'll notice he only told us that after my reply to Alec.


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## Winker (Jan 26, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> Well I get about a 5mph difference for a given rpms in top gear when I fit a new rear tyre on my motorcycle* ( the speedo reads off the gearbox, and it runs 17" rear wheel with a 180/55 section tyre. Drive is via a crownwheel and shaft drive, much in the same manner as a rear wheel drive car might)*.  Tread depth is 7mm when new.
> 
> But then maybe Im just making it up to sensationalise.



*Post#76*



st3v3 said:


> What   W anker   has failed to realise is that truck tyres are massive, so the tread is a small percentage of the diameter. On a small car/bike tyre the percentage is much different, so the error on speed will be higher.



*Post#77. You acknowledge that you have seen the speedo drive does NOT come from the front wheel*. 



st3v3 said:


> EDIT: apologies Alec, GRWXJR has posted that on his bike, you're correct.
> 
> Alec, we're talking a motorbike which as per David's post some time further up, takes the speedo drive from the front wheel.





Winker said:


> We are NOT!!
> 
> *Sneaky but futile bit of editing,  lol. *
> 
> Pay attention man,  Gixxer's bike has it's speedo drive from the transmission,  i.e. directly linked to the REAR WHEEL!





st3v3 said:


> I had posted that I'd seen his reply, before yours appeared. *And you'll notice he only told us that after my reply to Alec*.



HORLICKS.  You have been well caught out,  *piece of advice son,  when in a deep hole chuck your bl00dy shovel away! 
*


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## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

Winker said:


> *Post#77. You acknowledge that you have seen the speedo drive does NOT come from the front wheel*.



No, I actually didn't take any notice - hence why I carried on assuming it wasn't. My reply was about your lack of understanding that the error will be bigger on a small wheel.



> Sneaky but futile bit of editing, lol.



How is it sneaky? I've clearly identified it as an edit, you can see at what time I've edited (i.e. after GRWXJR pointed it out) and I've left the original post in tact. I wanted to be clear to Alec that he was correct. (See how I can admit when I'm wrong? You might want to try that  ) What's your point?


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## Fazerloz (Jan 26, 2015)

Watch this to see the relationship between tyre diameter, engine rpm, and speed . Well worth a watch in its own rights.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VF0JwxQqcA


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## pheasantplucker (Jan 26, 2015)

tiderus said:


> A few years ago I joined  Drive Protect, run by Adam Blair, after having been caught speeding three times is as many weeks.
> No problems with that, but I needed to cover myself against another one.
> Thank goodness it hasn't happened, and the info from them has been a help.
> 
> ...



How do they do that? Most police forces allow the speed limit  + 10% or even the limit +2mph +10%. All speedos should read high or +zero mph, which is the case when comparing the dial with the satnav reading.

Might better to go by satnav rather than vehicle speedo.


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## Winker (Jan 26, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> No, I actually didn't take any notice - hence why I carried on assuming it wasn't. My reply was about your lack of understanding that the error will be bigger on a small wheel.



That is your problem,  you spout off without paying heed to previous posts. 
Best you keep quiet now,  that hole is still getting deeper sonny. 

If anyone is remotely interested I can explain how tachographs are calibrated and how to present a vehicle for calibration if you want an extra few mph on your speed limiter. 
The thing is I have been present many times when this has been done,  have you st3v3y boy?


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## st3v3 (Jan 26, 2015)

And again you haven't answered a direct question. A bit of a theme for you...



Winker said:


> The thing is I have been present many times when this has been done,  have you st3v3y boy?


 Well done you. No, I haven't done it. It's not really rocket science is it? I've calibrated other things - You put a known stimulus in, and look for the expected result. If you don't get the result you adjust.

I'm going to ask you one last question. I posted:



st3v3 said:


> What   W anker   has failed to realise is that truck tyres are massive, so the tread is a small percentage of the diameter. On a small car/bike tyre the percentage is much different, so the error on speed will be higher.



You replied:



Winker said:


> Circumference
> Read and learn,  then go remove the egg from your face.



What _exactly_ did you mean by that?


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## Winker (Jan 27, 2015)

That's a NO then.


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## Admin (Jan 27, 2015)

The tone of this thread is not very nice. Stop it now please and play nicely.


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## st3v3 (Jan 27, 2015)

Winker said:


> That's a NO then.



I didn't think you'd want to answer that. Is your shovel broken?



Admin said:


> The tone of this thread is not very nice. Stop it now please and play nicely.



Ok, I won't reply again.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

Hurray, at last. The children have been spanked & sent to bed. Good on you Admin.


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 27, 2015)

Cir Cumference to the rescue: stout fellow that!


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## Winker (Jan 27, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> I didn't think you'd want to answer that. Is your shovel broken?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I won't reply again.



I did. 

Nor will I. *L*


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## GRWXJR (Jan 27, 2015)

[No message]


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## sparrks (Jan 27, 2015)

[No message]


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

[No message]


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## sparrks (Jan 27, 2015)

Effects of Wheel Radius


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## GRWXJR (Jan 27, 2015)

izwozral said:


> *AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH* stop it stop it stop it, my head hurts with all this talk of rubber & spinning & roundness & gearing, write something interesting like the life of a ping pong ball or something. You will only get someone posting back with "awfully sorry dear chap but the blah blah blah blah can't be blah blah blah blah & if you don't agree then you are *^&$£""!!& (*$$%££^"! &&*^$ " and Admin will have to get all fatherly again, clip yer ears & send you off to bed again.
> I could of course stop reading this thread but I am too nosey for that. If it helps, I have asked everyone in the whole world if they agree with you & guess what, they do, they really do, yes, you are not far off with your 5mph estimate. Okay? Good.



You do realise that you're just making it funnier to keep this thread going now, doncha? :hammer::lol-049:


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## RoadTrek Boy (Jan 27, 2015)

izwozral said:


> *AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH* stop it stop it stop it, my head hurts with all this talk of rubber & spinning & roundness & gearing, write something interesting like the life of a ping pong ball or something. You will only get someone posting back with "awfully sorry dear chap but the blah blah blah blah can't be blah blah blah blah & if you don't agree then you are *^&$£""!!& (*$$%££^"! &&*^$ " and Admin will have to get all fatherly again, clip yer ears & send you off to bed again.
> I could of course stop reading this thread but I am too nosey for that. If it helps, I have asked everyone in the whole world if they agree with you & guess what, they do, they really do, yes, you are not far off with your 5mph estimate. Okay? Good.



You didn't ask me!   :sad:


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 27, 2015)

Gawd, any idjut with the slightest mathematical bent realises the the differential ratio will change logarithmically as the wheel diameter increases! Don't need a table to see that...:lol-053:
Getting a little tyred of this tread!
John


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## GRWXJR (Jan 27, 2015)

A quick glance suggests (which makes sense and is kind of obvious really) that (as the percentage difference of a fixed say 7mm tread difference between new and worn) on a large wheel/ tyre is a much lower percentage of the total diameter and circumference measurements... so that means that the difference in indicated speed due to wear IS there, but isn't that significant.  So a huge lorry wheel isn't going to alter much (probably why there's no need for the Tachograph to need to be sophisticated to compensate as the error marging does not warrant it, helped further by a ceiling speed of 56mph limited).

Go to the other extreme of something like a 10" mini wheel and the effect is far greater.  Also as another poster covered (and I have done myself as a yoof running 12" wheels on the front of a Mini instead of 10" - Rally and Rally-Cross stylee from back-in-the-day) if you change the diameter by using a wheel/tyre combo change then you can affect the accuracy of the speedo by rather a lot.

(A mini running 12" wheels is a much nicer drive on the open road btw - a heck of a lot less 'busy' due to the longer-legged gearing.  You did have to put up with the tyres rubbing the arches on full lock as well.  We didn't worry about the speedo hugely under-reading as a result, as back then iot was 'just' the Police to worry about, and they were far more interested in you just driving responsibly than being totally pedantic for Profit).


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## Winker (Jan 27, 2015)

[No message]


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## Winker (Jan 27, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> A quick glance suggests (which makes sense and is kind of obvious really) that (as the percentage difference of a fixed say 7mm tread difference between new and worn) on a large wheel/ tyre is a much lower percentage of the total diameter and circumference measurements... so that means that the difference in indicated speed due to wear IS there, but isn't that significant.  So a huge lorry wheel isn't going to alter much (probably why there's no need for the Tachograph to need to be sophisticated to compensate as the error marging does not warrant it, helped further by a ceiling speed of 56mph limited).
> 
> Go to the other extreme of something like a 10" mini wheel and the effect is far greater.  Also as another poster covered (and I have done myself as a yoof running 12" wheels on the front of a Mini instead of 10" - Rally and Rally-Cross stylee from back-in-the-day) if you change the diameter by using a wheel/tyre combo change then you can affect the accuracy of the speedo by rather a lot.
> 
> (A mini running 12" wheels is a much nicer drive on the open road btw - a heck of a lot less 'busy' due to the longer-legged gearing.  You did have to put up with the tyres rubbing the arches on full lock as well.  We didn't worry about the speedo hugely under-reading as a result, as back then iot was 'just' the Police to worry about, and they were far more interested in you just driving responsibly than being totally pedantic for Profit).



Lorry tyres have HUGE TREADS though,  when all's said and done a lorry drive axle with a *useable* tread of 16mm will equate to a speed difference much the same as your bike tyre with a usable tread of 5mm. Presumably you change them at or before they are down to 2mm?? 
Lots of things to be considered as well as the pure mathematics.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes David, very interesting, in fact it is so interesting I am about to measure every tyre in Cheshire & compare them with your chart, even though I may get out of breath running after the bloody things.

Where's that bloody wall so I can smash my head against it.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

No, not bored at all, I found your chart very enlightening & beautifully put together. Could you please draw up a chart for me that shows the longitudinal & thickitudinal growth of a nasal hair of a period of 2 weeks and any bearing that such growth has on climate change. I await with eager anticipation.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

GRWXJR said:


> You do realise that you're just making it funnier to keep this thread going now, doncha? :hammer::lol-049:



Only until I commit suicide.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

ColinD said:


> You didn't ask me!   :sad:



Sorry Colin, you weren't in when I knocked.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

Effects of insanity caused by tyre equations.

Click on link above for more riveting discussions on this very interesting subject.


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 27, 2015)

No-one is extracting the Michael, merely turning a very tedious thread finale into something little more light-hearted!:lol-053:
Mind you, I'm surprised that no-one has tried  the Calculus using  Maxima and Minima to calculate the tread wear rate on converging carriageways...
John


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

Aww David just slapped me & I thought we were best friends too. :sad::sad:

P.S. And he's been spying on me. :scared::scared:


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> No-one is extracting the Michael, merely turning a very tedious thread finale into something little more light-hearted!:lol-053:
> John




Thank you sir, you know me well.


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## Winker (Jan 27, 2015)

You can get gassed if you let tyres down slowly and stand downwind of them! 
I prefer getting gassed in pubs though.


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> No-one is extracting the Michael, merely turning a very tedious thread finale into something little more light-hearted!:lol-053:
> *Mind you, I'm surprised that no-one has tried  the Calculus using  Maxima and Minima to calculate the tread wear rate on converging carriageways...
> John*





Try as I might John, I just can't work that one out. I wonder if there is anyone on here who could draw up a spread sheet to make it easier for me? It doesn't have to be too simple 'cos I have CSE 'O' level in Technical Drawing Grade 'E' you know. I just knew it would come in handy one day.

P.S. If someone could draw cartoon type pictures with the chart, that may help too. :angel::angel:


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

David, first you slapped me & then you give me a 'like' for my impertinence. That's a bit like S&M isn't it?


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## GWAYGWAY (Jan 27, 2015)

What with all the bickering I was a bit worried about saying anything, However if you run a big truck that has speed limiter and tachograpgh it does make a difference when you have the calibration done. You fit your most worn out recut/ recut and recut again tyre that are really getting to be knackered on to the drive axle that is going to be on the rolling road.  Get  it done and calibrated and sealed then refit the brand new tyres and there is an appreciable speed advantage.. That is noticeable when engaged in Elephant racing on the motorway, you can actually overtake another truck that wasn't done like that in under two miles. as against the standard 5 miles. unless of course they did the same and you will stay alongside for ever.
Speed limiters are a wonderful safety aid that slows the traffic behind as well as the lorries. Especially when I was going down the A2 from Dover and they take Lydden lights until Canterbury slip road to complete the overtake unless one of the drivers wusses out and slows( very rare).


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

We are down to one car now too although it is playing up with 5th gear popping out. We found one car a bit of getting use to but it has it's upside besides saving money, I/we walk a lot more, which is no bad thing. 
I don't know what it is like where you are but I have very fond memories of walking for hours in the the Loire Valley when working there.

Ignore my silly remarks if they irritate, I really am not taking the pee, I just do not take life too seriously these days & try a grab a laugh wherever I can.  Worked hard all my life & have had to present a certain face when dealing with clients in a professional way, now I have retired, I am enjoying being a big kid all over again.

:fun::fun::fun:


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## Siimplyloco (Jan 27, 2015)

izwozral said:


> SNIP
> 
> Ignore my silly remarks if they irritate, I really am not taking the pee, I just do not take life too seriously these days & try a grab a laugh wherever I can.  Worked hard all my life & have had to present a certain face when dealing with clients in a professional way, now I have retired, I am enjoying being a big kid all over again.
> 
> :fun::fun::fun:



Agreed! Life's too short to worry about other people's SOH bypass operations. If they don't 'get it' then move on...
John


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## izwozral (Jan 27, 2015)

My Saab is a 2006 9-5 Vector Sport TID 1.9 diesel estate. Brilliant cars & built like tanks, I would guarantee if i were involved in a crash, it would be the other driver who would come out worse off. The car has done 187,000 miles & it is only now that I am having real problems i.e 5th gear popping out.

Saab only folded because the production costs were too high for the market they were aiming for. Yes, GM wanted to degrade this & that to meet costs but the Saab engineers & designers were always going the opposite way, ultimately making it unviable.
Saabs are still relatively cheap because some people don't realise 95% of parts are Vauxhall. A car goes down & people automatically assume parts will be hard to get, simply not true with Saabs.


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## GRWXJR (Jan 28, 2015)

Didnt the 9-5 share the mechanicals with the Vauxhall Vectra?

If so a gearbox should be easy and relatively cheap to pick up, and not too hard a job (therefore not too costly - I've taken off gearboxes and changed clutches and I'm not a mechanic or a keen home mechanic, just half-handy) to get a small independent mechanic to fit it for you?

I think you've  a good chance of being fine with your box as I said, but perhaps a repair wouldnt be as painful as you might think?


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## Winker (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes,  and the 'Vauxhall' engine is  a Fiat one too,  so possibly a Fiat box is a straight swap too?


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