# Motorhome Levy



## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 20, 2017)

The Western Isles MSP is now suggesting a levy on all motorhomes visiting the Outer Hebrides.

Alf


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## trevskoda (Sep 20, 2017)

Alf said:


> The Western Isles MSP is now suggesting a levy on all motorhomes visiting the Outer Hebrides.
> 
> Alf



Drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry,them good old boy drinking whisky and rye.:lol-061:
Never a day passes that more money is being extracted from us easy targets,let them try that with travelers.:hammer:


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## The laird (Sep 20, 2017)

Does this mean proper Aires facilities will be provided !


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## trevskoda (Sep 20, 2017)

The laird said:


> Does this mean proper Aires facilities will be provided !



No it just means another form of stealth tax which if works will be spread around the other councils.


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## Peisinoe (Sep 20, 2017)

They can only try. Then watch there tourist money disappear as we go elsewhere.


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## runnach (Sep 20, 2017)

Alf said:


> The Western Isles MSP is now suggesting a levy on all motorhomes visiting the Outer Hebrides.
> 
> Alf


 Picking up on the parking thread it will be interesting how they can do that, if peoples "motorhomes" are classed as M1 as recognised by EU classification used by dvla for mot purposes, Vehicle excise duty , and their descriptors, "motorhomes " are the same as a car the only difference is the body type I am not sure that can be legally discriminated nor is under the current regulations the facility to do that.

The legality on face value seems questionable 

Channa


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

channa said:


> Picking up on the parking thread it will be interesting how they can do that, if peoples "motorhomes" are classed as M1 as recognised by EU classification used by dvla for mot purposes, Vehicle excise duty , and their descriptors, "motorhomes " are the same as a car the only difference is the body type I am not sure that can be legally discriminated nor is under the current regulations the facility to do that.
> 
> The legality on face value seems questionable
> 
> Channa



Just a note that the Vehicle Category of M1, N2, etc does not actually appear on all logbooks and so is not something that could be used as a differentiator.
It is possible that the Body Type could be used - which is the one where "Motor Caravan" would appear for vehicles which are generally called Motorhomes, Campervans, etc in collequial use - including this forums tagline. (the use of those terms are universal and would be translated to "Motor Caravan" in law if it came to some legislation I would imagine).  Plenty of Toll Bridges use that definition to charge commercials more then private cars and allow Motorhomes to cross at car rates
Alternatively, there could be a levy based on vehicle height - that is always a popular one and there is a precent in place already on the M6 Toll Road, where vehicles over a certain height - INCLUDING Cars, pay more then lower cars.

Whether it is justified or not (probably a badly thought out idea or could easily have been an off-the-cuff comment to just shut someone up at a meeting) is not the point, but plenty of ways where this levy could be applied.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 20, 2017)

It could a simple matter  a charge added to the ferry cost. Just make a  New Class Motorhomes.

Alf


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## caledonia (Sep 20, 2017)

Maybe something like what happens on Tiree. Maybe the West Harris Trust idea. A chap on the news last night was on Skye and he suggested tourists leaving vehicles at designated spots and using shuttle buses to visit the popular tourist spots.


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## Deleted member 53880 (Sep 20, 2017)

seems like 'uncongested charges' are on the way.


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## alcam (Sep 20, 2017)

The laird said:


> Does this mean proper Aires facilities will be provided !



I could see.the point if the islands put a levy on all vehicles . Their infrastructure is not geared up for the traffic they are now getting .


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## runnach (Sep 20, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Just a note that the Vehicle Category of M1, N2, etc does not actually appear on all logbooks and so is not something that could be used as a differentiator.
> It is possible that the Body Type could be used - which is the one where "Motor Caravan" would appear for vehicles which are generally called Motorhomes, Campervans, etc in collequial use - including this forums tagline. (the use of those terms are universal and would be translated to "Motor Caravan" in law if it came to some legislation I would imagine).  Plenty of Toll Bridges use that definition to charge commercials more then private cars and allow Motorhomes to cross at car rates
> Alternatively, there could be a levy based on vehicle height - that is always a popular one and there is a precent in place already on the M6 Toll Road, where vehicles over a certain height - INCLUDING Cars, pay more then lower cars.
> 
> Whether it is justified or not (probably a badly thought out idea or could easily have been an off-the-cuff comment to just shut someone up at a meeting) is not the point, but plenty of ways where this levy could be applied.



Without a change to the law , that could be by Scottish Parliament then there is the question of its legality over the current practice 

I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009 adopted by all states in 2012,And currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOt purposes etc . The correct classification of M1 within the current regime resulted in the re issue of registration documents , do you remember ? Changing to a new v5 to the current regulations is a simple process.

Classification of M1 doesn't extend to body types , so reference to motor caravans et al is of absolutely no relevance. The law simply does not recognise it, I totally agree with you the colloquial label of motorhome camper etc is common useage but is not recognised in a legal sense that needs to be remembered and most important.

Not hearsay, I have personally challenged this in court and won  

If it were argued a "motorhome " allows habitation , so does a truck cab so does a car, If I recline my seats I could get sleep ..I carry a gas stove in my Rover so does that make it that I have onboard cooking facilities. Equally a "motorhome " can be used without adaptation for the conveyance of passengers the same as a car and hence its classification as I understand it. 

If ferry companies were charged with collecting a tarriif then on weight a lot of 4x4s would exceed the 1500 kg weight widely adopted.... It is an ill thought out idea, If there is a problem easier remedies are available .It seems locals get frustrated in Summer is the crux .theh Islands and highlands would be goosed without tourism so need to be careful what they wish for 

Channa


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## trevskoda (Sep 20, 2017)

caledonia said:


> Maybe something like what happens on Tiree. Maybe the West Harris Trust idea. A chap on the news last night was on Skye and he suggested tourists leaving vehicles at designated spots and using shuttle buses to visit the popular tourist spots.



Hope the bus has a gas proof loo cause im always in it.:scared::lol-053:


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

channa said:


> Without a change to the law , that could be by Scottish Parliament then there is the question of its legality over the current practice
> 
> I would refer you to EU legislation extracted from 2007/46/EC last amended 385/2009 adopted by all states in 2012,And currently used by DVLA for Licencing MOt purposes etc . The correct classification of M1 within the current regime resulted in the re issue of registration documents , do you remember ? Changing to a new v5 to the current regulations is a simple process.
> 
> ...





"The correct classification of M1 within the current regime resulted in the re issue of registration documents , do you remember?"
why should I remember or not remember?
Are you saying all V5Cs issued since a certain date (which you presumable know the date?)  now contain a entry in that category? if you are right, then my first point is invalid. If however you are not right, my premise stands (PS. a lot - maybe the majority - of PVCs are N1 and not M1 (where that value is entered))

PS - the rest of your arguement was not relevant to any points I made


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## 2cv (Sep 20, 2017)

Tax everything seems to be the motto up here in Scotland. Already income tax is higher here than elsewhere in the UK, with legislation to further increase it recently announced. Vehicles as recent as 3 years old face heavy taxes to enter up to 39 LEZs. Taxes on house sales are higher, and rateable values are to be reasessed to bring in more revenue. Taxing tourists just fits the mould.
These extra taxes help pay for such schemes as providing charging points for electric cars on the new A9, a snip at an estimated £60,000,000.


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## maureenandtom (Sep 20, 2017)

Does this help?  Motor Caravan Certification

For the definition you can look at the original order quoted ny Channa.   Page 64 para 5.1 is the one you want.  No need to wade through the entire document.   
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32007L0046&from=EN

My point is always that if the council use the EU definition in their rules then they, and us, are bound by that - not just part of it.

EDit -not just part of it


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

Exactly - if a vehicle is a Motor Caravan on the V5C, it is a Motor Caravan by law.


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## runnach (Sep 20, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Exactly - if a vehicle is a Motor Caravan on the V5C, it is a Motor Caravan by law.


That is not what you were talking about you were talking and assuming colloquialisms that argument totally flawed.  


Channa


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

channa said:


> That is not what you were talking about you were talking and assuming colloquialisms that argument totally flawed.
> 
> 
> Channa


Read my post again. you also didn't explain what it is I should have "remembered"

Just to make it easier, I said "(the use of those terms are universal and would be translated to "Motor Caravan" in law if it came to some legislation I would imagine)" - what this means that if it came to the relevent party creating legislation, then they would use the term "Motor Caravan" in that legislation.  That is what I meant, and more to the point, that is what I said.


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## runnach (Sep 20, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Read my post again. you also didn't explain what it is I should have "remembered"
> 
> Just to make it easier, I said "(the use of those terms are universal and would be translated to "Motor Caravan" in law if it came to some legislation I would imagine)" - what this means that if it came to the relevent party creating legislation, then they would use the term "Motor Caravan" in that legislation.  That is what I meant, and more to the point, that is what I said.


V5.s were re issued or mine was I assumed others experienced the same ?( why I asked if you remembered) furthermore updated paperwork not that hard to obtain an exchange v5 in a lot of instances. Your imagining of terms being translated is that ,imagination ,,laws so far have not interpreted any imagination neither yours nor mine, Whilst a V5 may state motorcaravan the class of vehicle remains M1 the same as a motor car. As I see it there is no legal difference in context of the Original post. It would be interesting seeing the argument should it arise with the island councils.

Channa


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## alcam (Sep 20, 2017)

2cv said:


> Tax everything seems to be the motto up here in Scotland. Already income tax is higher here than elsewhere in the UK, with legislation to further increase it recently announced. Vehicles as recent as 3 years old face heavy taxes to enter up to 39 LEZs. Taxes on house sales are higher, and rateable values are to be reasessed to bring in more revenue. Taxing tourists just fits the mould.
> These extra taxes help pay for such schemes as providing charging points for electric cars on the new A9, a snip at an estimated £60,000,000.



 99% of Scottish tax payers will not be affected by the income tax increase . There are no LEZs in Scotland at the moment , there is one in London . Rateable values are being reassessed throughout Britain . We also have an awful lot of charging points on the English road network . Some body on here recently [perhaps yourself] was dismissing the push for electric cars as nonsense and pointing out there were not enough charging points . 
Back to the point tourist , taxes happen in lots of places throughout the world [usually a fairly trifling amount] , rightly or wrongly . In this case there appears to be a problem in lots of destinations with the massive increase in tourism . I think a vehicle levy [on all vehicles] for certain places may well make sense


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

channa said:


> V5.s were re issued or mine was I assumed others experienced the same ?( why I asked if you remembered) furthermore updated paperwork not that hard to obtain an exchange v5 in a lot of instances. Your imagining of terms being translated is that ,imagination ,,laws so far have not interpreted any imagination neither yours nor mine, Whilst a V5 may state motorcaravan the class of vehicle remains M1 the same as a motor car. As I see it there is no legal difference in context of the Original post. It would be interesting seeing the argument should it arise with the island councils.
> 
> Channa


well, sorry, but your assumption is wrong.  I have never had a V5C issued where the category was blank on the old one and present on the new one.  I had a VW T4 with no category, and when that was reissued (three times - once for a change of keeper, once for a change of registration number and once for a change of type to "Motor Caravan" as I converted it to a Camper ( )) at no time was the category entered.
The last V5C I has issued to me was just last month for another vehicle (a change of Body Type & Taxation Class in this case).  Care to have a wee guess at what field has remained blank? 

And as said before, do not assume all motor caravans are M1! I already pointed this out to you and it is a common bone of contention amongst VW Transporter owners - where they usually have N1 on their V5Cs  (the category started getting populated from a certain date of registration automatically, but I don't know what date) and when they sucessfully have their body type changed to Motor Caravan, their category remains at N1, which can lead to arguements with the authorities regarding Speed Limits, for example (a Motor Caravan in N1 category is subject to Car limits, not commecial limits).
Moreover, using the Body Type as a method of selecting whether a tarriff should be collected or not is already in place, so there is probably a legal precedent that could be used.  I assume you have knowledge of the London LEZ? In the LEZ, whether a vehicle needs to pay or not is determined, at least in part, by the body type, and NOT the category.
An Example to illustrate this .... At the time I bought it, my VW T4 was subject to payment of £100 a day should I choose to enter the London LEZ.  After I had it reclassifed as a Motor Caravan, it magically became exempt from the London LEZ  (and yes, I checked this with the LEZ Compliance Checker by entering the reg before the change and then sometime afterwards).  The same affect was seen on the Dartford Crossing toll, where the vehicles crossing charge suddenly dropped.
So please don't say that the Body Type cannot be used to determine charge rates when it clearly is already at various locations within the UK.


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## alcam (Sep 20, 2017)

runnach said:


> Alcam, MSP is SNP, who are greatly failing our country. Their cop out is, raise taxes, sooner this this shower of sheite are out, maybe our country will be a fair and equality shown to all, which does not happen at present.
> 
> Regarding the Islands, RET was introduced, which makes touring our islands a cheaper option when using ferries. If the current snp government had any clue, they would know what the result of implementing  RET would be, increase in tourism. If islands can't cope, then those of us wishing to tour, should take our hard earned where it is appreciated.
> 
> Me personally, I am now paying more tax under our current regime.



Well I did answer with facts not speculation or bias . What the previous poster stated was just his usual agenda , not based on fact at all . 
Again back to the point , subsidised ferries have obviously been a success . Everybody ( maybe not 2cv) praised this move , indeed politicians from the. Northern islands complained they weren't included .
The fact that this would possibly cause problems on the islands was not foreseen by anyone .


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## trevskoda (Sep 20, 2017)

wildebus said:


> well, sorry, but your assumption is wrong.  I have never had a V5C issued where the category was blank on the old one and present on the new one.  I had a VW T4 with no category, and when that was reissued (three times - once for a change of keeper, once for a change of registration number and once for a change of type to "Motor Caravan" as I converted it to a Camper ( )) at no time was the category entered.
> The last V5C I has issued to me was just last month for another vehicle (a change of Body Type & Taxation Class in this case).  Care to have a wee guess at what field has remained blank?
> 
> And as said before, do not assume all motor caravans are M1! I already pointed this out to you and it is a common bone of contention amongst VW Transporter owners - where they usually have N1 on their V5Cs  (the category started getting populated from a certain date of registration automatically, but I don't know what date) and when they sucessfully have their body type changed to Motor Caravan, their category remains at N1, which can lead to arguements with the authorities regarding Speed Limits, for example (a Motor Caravan in N1 category is subject to Car limits, not commecial limits).
> ...



States on mine top right,v5c(ni) and on front,united kingdom registration certificate.
Inside states top,iris bus and below motor home/caravan,then below that private/heavy goods 6400kg.


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## wildebus (Sep 20, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> States on mine top right,v5c(ni) and on front,united kingdom registration certificate.
> Inside states top,iris bus and below motor home/caravan,then below that private/heavy goods 6400kg.


You'll be missing an entry in "J" then, where a newer vehicle will have typically an M or an N followed by a number.
I changed my current vehicle from a Minibus with 16 seats to a Van/Side Windows with 7 seats, and from LGV (4.6t LGV?) to Private/Heavy Goods same as yours.


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## 2cv (Sep 20, 2017)

alcam said:


> 99% of Scottish tax payers will not be affected by the income tax increase . There are no LEZs in Scotland at the moment , there is one in London . Rateable values are being reassessed throughout Britain . We also have an awful lot of charging points on the English road network . Some body on here recently [perhaps yourself] was dismissing the push for electric cars as nonsense and pointing out there were not enough charging points .
> Back to the point tourist , taxes happen in lots of places throughout the world [usually a fairly trifling amount] , rightly or wrongly . In this case there appears to be a problem in lots of destinations with the massive increase in tourism . I think a vehicle levy [on all vehicles] for certain places may well make sense



100% of Scottish tax payers may be affected by income tax increases. MSPs back principle of income tax rises - BBC News

Whilst rateable values are being reassessed throughout the UK, in Scotland the domestic burden is to be shifted towards the higher bands, affecting the same individuals most likely to be badly hit by income tax rises. Council Tax

Part of the reason for the necessity for the extra tax take (apart from maintenance of the crumbling new parliament building) is spend on "vanity projects" such as early introduction of electric vehicles and providing charging points for such as on the new A9. Other regions have realised that the electric goal will take time.
SNP plan to turn lamp posts into charging points for electric cars across Scotland

The greatly increased tourism this year can be put down to a weak pound and the amazing success of the NC 500. The success should be celebrated and built on rather than deterrents applied. The pound may not remain weak and the initial novelty of the NC 500 will inevitably wear off.


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## alcam (Sep 20, 2017)

runnach said:


> Of course this should have been foreseen, RET was implemented to allow anyone the option to travel to inner and outer Hebs based on Road Equivalent Tarrif and, it appears to be so successful, the SNP MSP member sees us, the already over burdened tax payer, as another cash cow.
> 
> I have toured the Outer Hebs 4 year ago, we would return, but not if we are taxed to tour and spend our time and money, there. I pay enough tax, but at least I would have the option if this mad and unfair scheme was implemented, not to go, and it will be the locals that suffer, not the MSP.



The problem[?] was not foreseen by anyone . In fact it was embraced by many , including yourself . There is a universal tourist problem which many countries are trying to deal with in different ways . A small levy on vehicles if brought in [it is applied in many places on hotel beds etc] would neither be prohibitive nor , indeed a cash cow ! Mad ! Behave yourself


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## alcam (Sep 21, 2017)

runnach said:


> C'mon, of course introduction of RET would make access to the inner/outer hebs and soon to be introduced, Orkney (not sure about Shetland?) would/will mean more affordable access to these locations, which has been the case.
> 
> I don't know any UK locations that apply a tourist tax, Edinburgh Council (CEC) discussed this, was kicked into touch, as would be too, damaging to CEC tourist industry, income.
> 
> ...



There hasn't actually been road tax since 1937 . 
Majorca , Amsterdam and many others have tourist tax it's not unusual . These places are still popular . 1 euro a night is hardly a cash cow . I'm directly involved in tourism and (whether I agreed with it or not) don't think for a second a small levy would affect my business .
I pay tax like everybody else , apart from business rates


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 21, 2017)

DVLA only started classifying Motor Caravans using the EU standard in 2001

"The category type was only collected from 2001 onwards and hence older vehicles and imported vehicles have the category "MISSING". 
The category listed is that which was recorded when the vehicle was type approved at the point of first registration. 
M1, Passenger vehicle
N1, Goods vehicle up to 3500kg or
N2, Goods vehicles over 3500kg.
There are a small number of vehicles that have a category type that is not M1, N1 or N2 –  these are quite possibly errors. I have listed these as ‘others’."
All of the above have Motor Caravan on the V5

This was explained to me by Mike Dark, Vehicles Database Manager  Department for Transport,


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## Deleted member 68397 (Sep 21, 2017)

*Already penalised by ferry costs?*

Surely the sometimes prohibitive cost of some ferries for our motorhomes is extra levy /expense enough. I would imagine when the motorhomers decide to stop going further afield and to the islands, often off season and the tourism aspect is decreased we may see some common sense from these wishing to incur 'levies'.
But then the individuals who make some of these decisions very rarely allow themselves to be impacted by the loss of tourism. All cosied up in their little empire behind a desk.
As long as we don't as a community, take up all the island parking spaces and overstay our welcome in more sensitive locations, we are always welcomed by the islanders.  They may grouch a little about taking up so much of the road but in general they do welcome our custom.
  We are fortunate to have many good friends on the larger islands and for the majority of them the biggest gripe is not allowing locals to pass on single track roads and parking in inappropriate locations.
Looking forward to meeting some of you on the islands.
Slainte,
            The Restless Natives


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## alcam (Sep 21, 2017)

runnach said:


> Ok, vehicle tax, then.
> 
> Tax your vehicle - GOV.UK




Yea point being this money is not , necessarily , ring fenced for roads , as you were implying . Can't be bothered checking but maybe this tax is collected by uk government ?


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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

alcam said:


> Yea point being this money is not , necessarily , ring fenced for roads , as you were implying . Can't be bothered checking but maybe this tax is collected by uk government ?



Yes not ringfenced at all. small taxes eg 30 pence per day pretty much refelects what a French Campsite charges, so the idea of charging is not new , As you said Spain does a similar thing...Would I stop away from somewhere for 30 pence a night ? I very much doubt it.

Monies collected in a daft way would help our cause in the long run , it could be seen by communities as a contribution towards public toilets and other facilities , Not every summer a boat load of tourists turn up and freeload.

I am still not convinced taxing motorhomes directly is the way to do it , It could be collected by Ferry Companies on all passesngers visiting the islands. Locals with residencey exempt 

Channa


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## alcam (Sep 21, 2017)

runnach said:


> Yes, will be collected by UK central government. Which can find a few billion to sweeten DUP, but can't find a few quid to install facilities for those who tour the country in MH/campervans.
> 
> Channa, personally I do not mind paying a few bob for services. Looking at the French model, mother-in-laws sleepy wee village near Poitiers, where a Tuesday and Thursday nights, street lights are switched off, at dark-o-clock to save money, a free aire is now in place, which includes free EHU. Some countries seem to understand the business sense with this approach. Which in a sense, is similar to RET for cheaper ferry costs. It is an incentive to bring in visitors. Yet Scotland cant cope!!
> 
> C'mon, can't cost too, much to create facilities here, sleepy wee village in France, can.



It's not just Scotland that can't cope , I've cited some examples pretty sure there are more .
Re small French villages and Aires there are so many where there is no business reason to provide one . No shops bars etc . I actually feel guilty that I can't spend any money in the place !
Sure some Francophile on here explained they were provided to get rid of the motorhome problem ? 
Without digging into it I do get the impression local government is organised/financed much better in France than Britain .
Ask *********


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## maingate (Sep 21, 2017)

runnach said:


> Yes, will be collected by UK central government. Which can find a few billion to sweeten DUP, but can't find a few quid to install facilities for those who tour the country in MH/campervans.
> 
> Channa, *personally I do not mind paying a few bob for services*. Looking at the French model, mother-in-laws sleepy wee village near Poitiers, where a Tuesday and Thursday nights, street lights are switched off, at dark-o-clock to save money, a free aire is now in place, which includes free EHU. Some countries seem to understand the business sense with this approach. Which in a sense, is similar to RET for cheaper ferry costs. It is an incentive to bring in visitors. Yet Scotland cant cope!!
> 
> C'mon, can't cost too, much to create facilities here, sleepy wee village in France, can.



You are probably in the minority then Terry. A lot of wildcampers are too miserable and greedy to pay for overnight stays, hence a lot of the problems caused by crowds of motorhomes in unsuitable places.

The way I see it, the greedy crowd will not pay extra for the Ferry, neither will they pay for any Aires that may be set up. I expect demand to drop if this goes ahead, especially if additional restrictions are put on parking in public places.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 21, 2017)

If a small charge was to be made and better facilities provided for toilet and rubbish disposal I would not object as long as wild camping was allowed with the extra visitors I would not fancy using aires as these would soon be overcrowded.

 I suppose a Visitors License bought from Tourist Information for a few pounds would be a good way to go this could cover say Skye and the Western Isles.

As Maingate posts Quote-

A lot of wildcampers are too miserable and greedy to pay for overnight stays, hence a lot of the problems caused by crowds of motorhomes in unsuitable places.

Alf


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## barryd (Sep 21, 2017)

maingate said:


> runnach said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, will be collected by UK central government. Which can find a few billion to sweeten DUP, but can't find a few quid to install facilities for those who tour the country in MH/campervans.
> ...



I kind of agree.  I would rather go back to paying more for the ferries than go to an island only to find no overnighting signs or restrictions in place.  I suspect this is a storm in a tea cup as the rumblings on Arran last year were about too many motorhomes now the fares were cheap.  I spent six weeks there and everyone I spoke to said we were welcome and it's just a few whingers but they also said one or two of the increased numbers of vans parked in daft places etc.  It's a fine line we tread and it's their island and their rules.

Be sensible and spend a few quid and all should be ok.  I didn't mind paying the old rate to be honest as there was never any mention of issues back then.


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## alcam (Sep 21, 2017)

alcam said:


> It's not just Scotland that can't cope , I've cited some examples pretty sure there are more .
> Re small French villages and Aires there are so many where there is no business reason to provide one . No shops bars etc . I actually feel guilty that I can't spend any money in the place !
> Sure some Francophile on here explained they were provided to get rid of the motorhome problem ?
> Without digging into it I do get the impression local government is organised/financed much better in France than Britain .
> Ask *********



Whoops didn't realise you weren't allowed to mention a certain persons name ! Is this a legal thing , or just bad memories ?


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## maingate (Sep 21, 2017)

runnach said:


> Sometimes I can't be bothered rooting out a WC spot and go for a site of sorts. Last weekend £20.00 for two night stay at Loch Katrine aire. We also use a nice and quiet site for £18 pn incl EHU, which is located within Ettrick Valley. But, this is our prerogative and, times at getting away are restrictive due to work commitments.
> 
> I can also understand retired members who are out and about often, having to pay site fees can be restrictive if one is watching their pennies, it can be a fine line at times.



We are out and about a lot Terry but I cannot remember the last time we paid anything that was in double figures for a night. We tend to use the C&CC THS spots but that means paying an annual charge of about £40 for C&CC membership. We have found a few Pubs with a campsite attached that charge between £7 and £9 per night with no obligation to use the Pub (although we always do or the Wife will make my life a misery). Our wilding is less now than it was a few years ago due to restrictions getting more common and us having a big van.


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## maxi77 (Sep 21, 2017)

2cv said:


> Tax everything seems to be the motto up here in Scotland. Already income tax is higher here than elsewhere in the UK, with legislation to further increase it recently announced. Vehicles as recent as 3 years old face heavy taxes to enter up to 39 LEZs. Taxes on house sales are higher, and rateable values are to be reasessed to bring in more revenue. Taxing tourists just fits the mould.
> These extra taxes help pay for such schemes as providing charging points for electric cars on the new A9, a snip at an estimated £60,000,000.



Would you like to qualify that comment on income tax in Scotland, I too live there and there has been no change to mine and so far the only reason it would change was if Labour or the Limp Dems got into power


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## 2cv (Sep 21, 2017)

maxi77 said:


> Would you like to qualify that comment on income tax in Scotland, I too live there and there has been no change to mine and so far the only reason it would change was if Labour or the Limp Dems got into power



The link provided covers it. At present only higher rate taxpayers pay more, but the parliament agreed in principle to increase income tax for all, rates yet to be decided. Yours is very likely to change in the next budget. In the vote the SNP abstained, meaning that a combination of Labour, Libdems and Greens won the vote.


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## maxi77 (Sep 21, 2017)

2cv said:


> The link provided covers it. At present only higher rate taxpayers pay more, but the parliament agreed in principle to increase income tax for all, rates yet to be decided. Yours is very likely to change in the next budget. In the vote the SNP abstained, meaning that a combination of Labour, Libdems and Greens won the vote.



 So you agree that at present the majority ie those who pay standard rate do not pay more. Come the next budget one may expect thet the Tories will vote with the SNP to kill the standard rate rise.


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## wildebus (Sep 21, 2017)

maxi77 said:


> So you agree that at present the majority ie those who pay standard rate do not pay more. Come the next budget one may expect thet the Tories will vote with the SNP to kill the standard rate rise.



Zzzzzzzz

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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

I would think targeting one set of users in the Islands is inefficient, If a tourist tax was extended to all visitors the tax could be less but the council generate more revenue....All visitors have an impact, everyone can use toilets, creates rubbish benefits from street lighting etc causes damage to roads.

The monies generated could fund aire type arrangements also be invested in aminities which possibly the locals don't already have. And get advantage out of season

Monies direct to the council for spending I only see one issue and that is Holyrood or Westminster reducing funding negating any incremental in the area.

I honestly don't think a few pennies anyone would boycott the area. It seems to me managed sensibly it could be a self sustaining enterprise that benefits all

Channa


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## 2cv (Sep 21, 2017)

maxi77 said:


> So you agree that at present the majority ie those who pay standard rate do not pay more. Come the next budget one may expect thet the Tories will vote with the SNP to kill the standard rate rise.



It will be difficult for the SNP to vote against a rise for all now that parliament has agreed the rise in principle and they have stated that they favour an end to austerity, meaning that tax rises are necessary. If they abstain again the rises will happen. Of course the ramifications are further reaching in their disincentive to business when the opportunity to operate in a lower tax environment is so close by.
Property just South of the border may prove to be a good investment.
Edited to add that at present there are 377000 higher rate taxpayers in Scotland who at present pay £800 pa more tax than elsewhere in the UK. The parliament can vary the tax rate by up to 3%.


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## alcam (Sep 21, 2017)

2cv said:


> It will be difficult for the SNP to vote against a rise for all now that parliament has agreed the rise in principle and they have stated that they favour an end to austerity, meaning that tax rises are necessary. If they abstain again the rises will happen. Of course the ramifications are further reaching in their disincentive to business when the opportunity to operate in a lower tax environment is so close by.
> Property just South of the border may prove to be a good investment.
> Edited to add that at present there are 377000 higher rate taxpayers in Scotland who at present pay £800 pa more tax than elsewhere in the UK. The parliament can vary the tax rate by up to 3%.



A non binding motion was passed in Holyrood . Again you insist on presenting speculation as facts . Scottish government doesn't have control over tax bands , NI or VAT . 
Don't mention it


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## 2cv (Sep 21, 2017)

alcam said:


> A non binding motion was passed in Holyrood . Again you insist on presenting speculation as facts . Scottish government doesn't have control over tax bands , NI or VAT .
> Don't mention it



If the Scottish government has no control over tax bands perhaps you could explain why Scottish higher rate taxpayers pay more tax than those in the rest of the UK.
Income Tax in Scotland - GOV.UK


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## alcam (Sep 22, 2017)

2cv said:


> If the Scottish government has no control over tax bands perhaps you could explain why Scottish higher rate taxpayers pay more tax than those in the rest of the UK.
> Income Tax in Scotland - GOV.UK



It also forces them to change rates for each band at the same level. So on higher rate income, above £42,375, taxed at 40%, any change to the lower rate would have to be applied also to the higher rate.

That removes the ability to use the tax system to redistribute the tax burden from lower and middle earners to higher earners.


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## 2cv (Sep 22, 2017)

alcam said:


> It also forces them to change rates for each band at the same level. So on higher rate income, above £42,375, taxed at 40%, any change to the lower rate would have to be applied also to the higher rate.
> 
> That removes the ability to use the tax system to redistribute the tax burden from lower and middle earners to higher earners.



I think that you may be considering the position pre 2016 Scotland act, the higher rate threshold now being £43001. Scottish Income tax 2017/18
There are proposals to rebate lower rate taxpayers when increasing tax rates, circumnavigating the situation that you describe.
A link from the time that the act came into force What are Scotland's tax powers? - BBC News
Incidentally, when the Scottish government increased the tax on house sales for higher value properties the actual tax take fell because of lower sales in the affecred bands. 
New tax causes slump in Scottish house prices  | UK | News | Express.co.uk
Stamp duty replacement has 'eye watering' effect on h...


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## Deleted member 68397 (Sep 22, 2017)

*So anymore credible information on MH possible Levy?*

Well are we any closer to an answer to the original question?
As an aside I would happily pay additional 800 pa to live in Scotland.
Most of you will pay that to holiday here with motorway prices.

regards, Growlie


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## alcam (Sep 22, 2017)

2cv said:


> I think that you may be considering the position pre 2016 Scotland act, the higher rate threshold now being £43001. Scottish Income tax 2017/18
> There are proposals to rebate lower rate taxpayers when increasing tax rates, circumnavigating the situation that you describe.
> A link from the time that the act came into force What are Scotland's tax powers? - BBC News
> Incidentally, when the Scottish government increased the tax on house sales for higher value properties the actual tax take fell because of lower sales in the affecred bands.
> ...



Lack of control over bands and rates is quoted in your link .
High stamp duty not affecting the rich people of Edinburgh . Don't remember mentioning stamp duty . Like all increases (right or wrong) it will be absorbed , especially when the people concerned don't have to worry too much about their next meal .


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## alcam (Sep 22, 2017)

Growlie69 said:


> Well are we any closer to an answer to the original question?
> As an aside I would happily pay additional 800 pa to live in Scotland.
> Most of you will pay that to holiday here with motorway prices.
> 
> regards, Growlie



No it has been suggested by 1 politician . Quite normal on here for something like this to be presented as a fact . At the moment.it has been suggested , it hasn't happened


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## 2cv (Sep 22, 2017)

The relevance of all this to the original post is that whilst Scotland has an ever increasing proclavity towards increasing taxes, the consequences of such rises in overall economic terms are not always considered. 
This general point is very relevant in that discouraging some tourists from the islands may have an overall detrimental effect to those islands.


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## caledonia (Sep 22, 2017)

2cv said:


> The relevance of all this to the original post is that whilst Scotland has an ever increasing proclavity towards increasing taxes, the consequences of such rises in overall economic terms are not always considered.
> This general point is very relevant in that discouraging some tourists from the islands may have an overall detrimental effect to those islands.



I disagree. I used to visit the Islands regularly but for the last 3 to 4 years the more popular islands are being abused by people overstaying or parking in inappropriate places. I would happily buy a wildcamping permit from tourist info or maybe ferry terminal to allow me to use designated places.


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## 2cv (Sep 22, 2017)

caledonia said:


> I disagree. I used to visit the Islands regularly but for the last 3 to 4 years the more popular islands are being abused by people overstaying or parking in inappropriate places. I would happily buy a wildcamping permit from tourist info or maybe ferry terminal to allow me to use designated places.



I agree with that, especially if some services were provided from the revenue. A simple levy, however, would dissuade as many responsible users as it would abusers.


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## alcam (Sep 22, 2017)

hairydog said:


> All this anti-tax rhetoric is missing several points.
> 
> Taxes fund essential services. There are quite a few things that are better in Scotland because they are taxpayer-funded.
> I wish that the Scottish border were to move a few hundred miles South to include the North of England, and I doubt I'm alone in that.
> ...



More than happy to move the border for you . We would , of course , have to charge a levy !
Think we can all agree your last sentence is almost certainly correct , Unfortunately


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## 2cv (Sep 22, 2017)

MSP criticised over motorhome tax


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## jagmanx (Sep 22, 2017)

*Don McClean*

Drove the chevvy to the levee but the levee was dry !

Substitute motorhome for chevvy !


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## 2cv (Oct 4, 2017)

Another article Why taxing motorhomes for visiting the Western Isles is a bad idea – Wild about Scotland


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## PaulW (Oct 5, 2017)

Don't really understand the opposition to the original idea, as long as it was set at a reasonable level.  It works, without protest or even comment, in France, widely regarded as the most motorhome-friendly country in Europe.


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## trevskoda (Oct 20, 2017)

jagmanx said:


> Drove the chevvy to the levee but the levee was dry !
> 
> Substitute motorhome for chevvy !



I already said that.:hammer: see im right if others copy.:lol-053:


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## barge1914 (Oct 20, 2017)

PaulW said:


> Don't really understand the opposition to the original idea, as long as it was set at a reasonable level.  It works, without protest or even comment, in France, widely regarded as the most motorhome-friendly country in Europe.



Works too in most of the popular destinations in Germany where we are now...goes towards investment in tourist facilities.


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