# Government petition requesting UK aires



## RichardHelen262 (Aug 30, 2015)

please sign (hope this link works) 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105748


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## Siimplyloco (Aug 30, 2015)

Your petition starts off with 'Compel' rather than 'Encourage'. Not a good opener in my view.
John


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## izwozral (Aug 30, 2015)

Aggressive wording as John states but I felt compelled to sign anyway.:rolleyes2:


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## RichardHelen262 (Aug 30, 2015)

siimplyloco said:


> Your petition starts off with 'Compel' rather than 'Encourage'. Not a good opener in my view.
> John



I do agree with you
I'm only sharing from another site - not my wording.


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## Tbear (Aug 30, 2015)

I signed but doubt very much that it will reach the numbers required. There where 411 when I signed, if we had all turned up at a council meeting then? On a nation scale 

Richard


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## maureenandtom (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed - now at 425.


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## antiqueman (Aug 30, 2015)

How do we know its not just for collecting email addresses etc :juggle:


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## El Veterano (Aug 30, 2015)

Now 440. But I was a little reluctant to sign because of the, seemingly more often than not these days, basic understanding, or rather non-understanding, of UK grammar used in the petition.


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## Yogihughes (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed at 455, hopefully it will receive more publicity in other media such as Facebook etc etc.


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## rockape (Aug 30, 2015)

All signed


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## kenjones (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed and forwarded to friends.


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## ian1950 (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed and forwarded 510 now:dog:


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## Deleted member 19733 (Aug 30, 2015)

All signed now :goodluck::goodluck:


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## roamingman (Aug 30, 2015)

Done


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## Deleted member 37170 (Aug 30, 2015)

Despite the Grammar I have signed. Why you may ask? Because by doing nothing, you are doing nothing, and doing nothing = nothing ever done.


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## maureenandtom (Aug 30, 2015)

Then please draft one which you feel will have a chance of success.

I will sign it.

Tom


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## ScamperVan (Aug 30, 2015)

antiqueman said:


> How do we know its not just for collecting email addresses etc :juggle:



But these petitions can work, eg Harvey's Law 

Highways Agency to identify pets and contact owners after road deaths - BBC News


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## invalid (Aug 30, 2015)

I have signed, as a Parish Councillor I’m used to receiving letters and emails with poor spelling and punctuation etc. Maybe I’m more forgiving as I’m dyslectic myself. We can all find good reason for not doing anything, but as a Councillor it’s my duty to look past petty mistakes and look for the greater good. I have always believed the countryside belongs to all not only for enjoyment, but for those earning a living, so “Aires” or the like must be good to increase the number of visitors. Many PC get a bad name for narrow mindedness and short sightedness, this I can’t dispute, but if you don’t ask you have no chance of getting.


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## Sharon the Cat (Aug 30, 2015)

antiqueman said:


> How do we know its not just for collecting email addresses etc :juggle:



Quote from site

We won't publish your personal details anywhere or use them for anything other than this petition.

We will email you about this petition, and nothing else. You can unsubscribe at any time.​
I think that answers your query.

Signed.   *593*


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## Wanderlust (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed number 629


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## oppy (Aug 30, 2015)

635


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## Robmac (Aug 30, 2015)

636


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## Jimhunterj4 (Aug 30, 2015)

649


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## antiquesam (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed. It is unfortunate that those of us without a UK postcode are unable to sign these petitions and can only criticise them.


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## Asterix (Aug 30, 2015)

Maybe we shud start a pertition two shoot peeple hoo can't reed,rite and punchuate proply.


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## Asterix (Aug 30, 2015)

654


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## alcam (Aug 30, 2015)

Don't sign it then . Given your totally negative comments , can't even see why you are posting on this thread . As for spelling Aire with a capital it is hardly going to affect anybodies understanding of the matter . Coming from somebody who constantly uses really poor English [ clumsy , badly constructed sentences] your criticisms are unlikely to be treated seriously .


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## Pauljenny (Aug 30, 2015)

i Juust sined itt,!;:' To


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## Tbear (Aug 30, 2015)

Doing something makes lots of people feel better. Simple putting down their efforts without producing a better plan seems only to make one person feel better.


Richard


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## mossypossy (Aug 30, 2015)

Asterix said:


> Maybe we shud start a pertition two shoot peeple hoo can't reed,rite and punchuate proply.




There is already a petition for than on the petitions website. Hell, there is a petition on most things you can't even begin to imagine.


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## Pauljenny (Aug 30, 2015)

Can we continue this on Admin's 10000th post thread?

We could speed things up, while adding to this fascinating exchange of views.


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## toasty (Aug 30, 2015)

antiqueman said:


> How do we know its not just for collecting email addresses etc :juggle:



I always have a `spare` email address which I dont normally use, comes in handy at times like this!


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## toasty (Aug 30, 2015)

Now at 667


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## molly 2 (Aug 30, 2015)

I can't see the point of bringing motorhome build and service  quality into this post  , some people may fall short in the clerical  area ,but excel in many other ways that clerics don't, sorry for any errors.


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## antiquesam (Aug 30, 2015)

I can't see why why there is an argument here. Either you agree with it and sign it or you think it is wrong and you don't bother if you are eligible or stand back if you aren't.


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## AuldTam (Aug 30, 2015)

Signed, now at 692


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## ScamperVan (Aug 30, 2015)

Really? That's your opinion?

As part of Treasury austerity measures, mandatory scanning of canine traffic victims for electronic tags and other identifiers was being phased out.

And as a result of the petition...

Pets killed on roads will have to be collected, identified and their owners notified by the Highways Agency, the Transport Minister John Hayes said.


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## invalid (Aug 30, 2015)

Many people have difficulty with their own understanding of language, and even these spell checkers and grammar checkers can get things wrong, but by some peoples reasoning we should not take any notice of people whose language skills are not pucker:
Inventors & Scientists:
•	Ann Bancroft, Arctic Explorer.
•	Alexander Graham Bell.
•	John Britten, Inventor.
•	Pierre Curie, Physicist (1903 Nobel Prize).
•	Thomas Edison.
•	Albert Einstein.
•	Michael Faraday.
•	Carol Greider, Molecular Biologist, awarded 2009 Nobel Prize in Medicine.
Famous People with the Gift of Dyslexia
And let’s not forget probably the greatest mind of all, Leonardo da Vinci.
What a sadder World it would be without the thoughts of the less gifted spellers?


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## AdriaTwin (Aug 30, 2015)

signed by us - now up to 716.
Worth a try.


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## DorisBoris (Aug 30, 2015)

helen262 said:


> please sign (hope this link works)
> 
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105748



I am sure it is not the government's place to "compel" councils to establish aires - it is up to individual local authorities to make arrangements as they see fit. In my opinion a petition to government is a waste of time. We as individuals, and the caravanning and motorhome organisations (including wildcamping.co.uk) should be lobbying local authorities and persuading them of the benefits to them of providing aire-type facilities.


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## Tbear (Aug 30, 2015)

DorisBoris said:


> I am sure it is not the government's place to "compel" councils to establish aires - it is up to individual local authorities to make arrangements as they see fit. In my opinion a petition to government is a waste of time. We as individuals, and the caravanning and motorhome organisations (including wildcamping.co.uk) should be lobbying local authorities and persuading them of the benefits to them of providing aire-type facilities.



What on earth makes you think that institutions like the Caravan Club will shoot themselves in the foot to help us.

Richard


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## st3v3 (Aug 30, 2015)

DorisBoris said:


> We as individuals,



What have you done?


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## maingate (Aug 30, 2015)

DorisBoris said:


> I am sure it is not the government's place to "compel" councils to establish aires - it is up to individual local authorities to make arrangements as they see fit. In my opinion a petition to government is a waste of time. We as individuals, and the caravanning and motorhome organisations (including wildcamping.co.uk) should be lobbying local authorities and persuading them of the benefits to them of providing aire-type facilities.



Unfortunately the 2 big Clubs are more liable to lobby the Government AGAINST Aires.


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## Tbear (Aug 30, 2015)

swiftcamper said:


> Very few people actually want aires in this country and as stated it would be local authorities providing them.
> The major clubs,manufacturers,campsite operators,magazine publishers  are all in each others pockets they will never support it .
> There are relatively few motorhomes in the UK that are used by people who require aires they are happy to use campsites and in fact would be scared doing anything else.



The number of members of this site would suggest that the few you talk about are measured by the thousand but the number that are prepared to do anything to help themselves are much fewer.

Richard


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## Tbear (Aug 30, 2015)

swiftcamper said:


> Ok I may sound negative but of the* thousands of members how many actually post* ?
> Maybe a couple of hundred being generous.
> From a population of near ,70 million,hardly a force to be reckoned with.
> The anti motorhome brigade far exceed those seeking cheap places to stay.



Sort of makes my point.

I don't think there are that many against motorhomes or even wild campers. With my discussions with local MP, Police Commissioner and Council Officials, it is more reluctance to change and fear of the Gypsy Hordes. Also a reluctance to get off their bums when comes to council staff. Who wants to put effort into rocking the boat.

Richard


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## vwalan (Aug 30, 2015)

i still say on the whole there is no problem in uk . there are always places to stay. forget Whitby and the likes . its a daft place to stop anyway. 
i have never had a problem . just like here places abroad change . one year you can then you cant . then you can . 
i think most dont know why aires in france were first done . certainly the ones that charge the prices some do now are not like the first ones . 
lets just carry on as we are . parking is easy. 
i for one wont be signing . 
i may not like authority but the govt will never force councils to have aires . 
just as well trapyour finger in the m,home door i think . 
plus we have seen how many uk and foreign un desirable m,homer carry on . it will give them the right to carry on . 
i dont mean alternative travellers just m,home users .


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## alcam (Aug 30, 2015)

I think it is valid  to criticise your English as you , bizarrely , appear to think you have a greater grasp of grammar than the rest of us . The above paragraph merely proves my point . I made no personal attacks whatsoever . Your comments are increasingly offensive . Perhaps you should concentrate on your garden .


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## Polar Bear (Aug 30, 2015)

alcam said:


> I think it is valid  to criticise your English as you , bizarrely , appear to think you have a greater grasp of grammar than the rest of us . The above paragraph merely proves my point . I made no personal attacks whatsoever . Your comments are increasingly offensive . Perhaps you should concentrate on your garden .



Should we have a Doom Bar or a Spitfire?


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## invalid (Aug 30, 2015)

I will always think that if a community makes it almost imposable for MH’s to park, we can all move on and spend our monies elsewhere. The problem is in some areas it is almost becoming a gated community, where the property owners think that they own the roads as well as the views.
What it seems to come down to, is that us peasant’s or the greater unwashed, just don’t seem to know our places. How dare we think we have the right to use the roads we pay for, or breathe the same air as the local gentry? Small minded people will not change, because they don’t have the will or mental capacity to do so. The answers simple, just move on and let them find something just as petty to fill their time with, because by the time it dawns on them that this is not a trail run, their crack at life is almost over, so many have only regret to keep them company.


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## mossypossy (Aug 31, 2015)

Imagine allowing a swarm of motorhomes into your pretty little town!


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## RichardHelen262 (Aug 31, 2015)

mossypossy said:


> Imagine allowing a swarm of motorhomes into your pretty little town!



If there was an aire just outside the pretty little town,then you would only have the owners of the motorhomes walking in and spending money in the pretty little town,  it seems to work for other countries,hence the reason so many Brits take their motorhomes and money to to France, Germany,etc


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## Tbear (Aug 31, 2015)

David,

I think you are missing the point. Its not that it produced good legislation but more the fact that it succeeded in producing a change.

Richard


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## ScamperVan (Aug 31, 2015)

Ah, but that isn't what my answer was in response to. You stated  "Not a good example of the power of petitions." and I responded that, since the petition caused a U-turn in policy, it was a good example.

Whether or not you believe it to be a worthy policy is not relevant.


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## ScamperVan (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks, Richard - you beat me to it


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## alcam (Aug 31, 2015)

vwalan said:


> i still say on the whole there is no problem in uk . there are always places to stay. forget Whitby and the likes . its a daft place to stop anyway.



Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, but surely no harm in raising the profile of MH in Britain? 
Curious as to what is daft about staying at Whitby? Just had a great time at the Folk Week


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## antiqueman (Aug 31, 2015)

swiftcamper said:


> Ok I may sound negative but of the thousands of members how many actually post ?
> Maybe a couple of hundred being generous.
> From a population of near ,70 million,hardly a force to be reckoned with.
> The anti motorhome brigade far exceed those seeking cheap places to stay.



There it goes down to price again thats rubbish, why should I go on a site just to park for the night, it has no benefits to me to be herded where others want me.


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## Tbear (Aug 31, 2015)

alcam said:


> Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, but surely *no harm in raising the profile* of MH in Britain?
> Curious as to what is daft about staying at Whitby? Just had a great time at the Folk Week



That way we just get more people involved and make it a bigger issue which will not help us. What we need to do is target the correct people such as your local parking department. You may wish to take along someone from tourism but not invite highways when they have just spent a week getting rid of a Gipsy Encampment or the locals affected by it.

Richard

Don't forget that there are a lot more people that don't have a motorhome than do.


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## antiqueman (Aug 31, 2015)

*motorhome sales*

As a matter of interest has anyone been told by motorhome salesperson that you will not be able to friggin park it anywhere and if you do folk will hate you.:wave:


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## alcam (Aug 31, 2015)

Tbear said:


> *That way we just get more people involved and make it a bigger issue which will not help us*. What we need to do is target the correct people such as your local parking department. You may wish to take along someone from tourism but not invite highways when they have just spent a week getting rid of a Gipsy Encampment or the locals affected by it.
> 
> Richard
> 
> Don't forget that there are a lot more people that don't have a motorhome than do.



Not sure about your first point . Certainly having some kind of dialogue with local government must be a positive move


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## Pauljenny (Aug 31, 2015)

It's 35 posts since I suggested continuing this thread on Admin's 10000th post thread.

 Come on you lot! If you are going to beat the subject to death, why not do it constructively?

We need your bulky input.


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## Tbear (Aug 31, 2015)

alcam said:


> Not sure about your first point . Certainly having some kind of dialogue with local government must be a positive move



You need to read the next sentence. Dialogue is good but with the best people. There have been huge problems in my local area with irresponsible motorhome users so you need to be careful not to wind up the wrong folk.

Richard


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## Tbear (Aug 31, 2015)

Pauljenny said:


> It's 35 posts since I suggested continuing this thread on Admin's 10000th post thread.
> 
> Come on you lot! If you are going to beat the subject to death, why not do it constructively?
> 
> We need* your bulky input*.




Would you like to expand on that

Richard


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## Pauljenny (Aug 31, 2015)

Tbear said:


> Would you like to expand on that
> 
> Richard



Gladly.
But not on this thread!


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## Deleted member 37170 (Aug 31, 2015)

Suggestion to Wint's.  Go to your garden, climb on the roof of your shed and toss yourself off! You seem to be very good at tossing yourself off.


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## ScamperVan (Aug 31, 2015)

Bopper said:


> Suggestion to Wint's.  Go to your garden, climb on the roof of your shed and toss yourself off! You seem to be very good at tossing yourself off.




I just assumed he was drunk  :wacko::lol-049:


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## vwalan (Aug 31, 2015)

alcam said:


> Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, but surely no harm in raising the profile of MH in Britain?
> Curious as to what is daft about staying at Whitby? Just had a great time at the Folk Week



there is nothing wrong with Whitby per say . used to go there alot years ago. 
but these days its quite obvious m,homes arent wanted parking where they have been . unfortunately they do seem to want to park in places that will and do annoy the locals . 
we have the same here in cornwall . 
i say 90 %of motor homers park in daft places that will annoy locals .
the idea is to try and fit in be seen but not heard my dad would say. 
blocking sea front roads for days at a time etc isnt good for m,homers . its called monopolizing the parking . 
park discreetly and you will be left alone . 
shout too much about what m,homers want will only make more aware that they dont want m,homers in their town /village .
in france aires were setup originally as m,homes werent allowed on the campsites . caravans werent the norm in france , it was tents . 
they started parking all over the place making a mess etc so the gov, m,home clubs ,manufacturers,etc got together to sort of control where m,homes could park. having facilities etc was a bonus . the authorities could keep control.


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## Deleted member 13859 (Aug 31, 2015)

*Gov Petition*

Signed and I support it.


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## Jimhunterj4 (Aug 31, 2015)

Oooooooh the savagery:lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


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## Geraldine (Aug 31, 2015)

Just signed no; 1012
Cheers


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## Tbear (Aug 31, 2015)

Well if it keep its momentum, hopefully I'm wrong and it will get it's numbers.

Richard


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## autosip (Sep 1, 2015)

Now at 1089 yippee :tongue:


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## The laird (Sep 1, 2015)

*Ayres*

Singed utt


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## alcam (Sep 1, 2015)

Tbear said:


> You need to read the next sentence. Dialogue is good but with the best people. There have been huge problems in my local area with irresponsible motorhome users so you need to be careful not to wind up the wrong folk.
> 
> Richard



Again I agree with you . But , if done properly , I see no harm in dialogue at all levels . 
Yes unfortunately , like any walk of life , we are plagued with thoughtless arseholes . In Whitby [again] where , in my experience , the council take a pragmatic view saw people taking the piss . One family out with the table chairs another openly draining his grey water . Both incidents relatively minor but not helpful . We have members on here who appear to see nothing wrong with parking in front of houses obscuring their view . Downright bad manners in my opinion


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## Tbear (Sep 1, 2015)

alcam said:


> Again I agree with you . But , *if done properly* , I see no harm in dialogue at all levels .
> Yes unfortunately , like any walk of life , we are plagued with thoughtless arseholes . In Whitby [again] where , in my experience , the council take a pragmatic view saw people taking the piss . One family out with the table chairs another openly draining his grey water . Both incidents relatively minor but not helpful . We have members on here who appear to see nothing wrong with parking in front of houses obscuring their view . Downright bad manners in my opinion



I fear you have a very much better view of human nature than I have. In my experience once someone has made up their mind to hate something, it takes huge amounts of time and effort to make a dent in their feelings. Much easier to just work round them. Pick your battles and only try and fight the ones that you can win. If you had the resources to mount a serious campaign in just one local authority, would you pick Whitby? Or would you pick one of the Devon councils that are toying with the idea already.

Richard


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## Pauljenny (Sep 1, 2015)

Mmmm!

Meanwhile,on another thread.......


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## Tbear (Sep 1, 2015)

Pauljenny said:


> Mmmm!
> 
> Meanwhile,on another thread.......



Are you trying to say something. Spit it out Man!!!  

Richard


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## Firefox (Sep 1, 2015)

[No message]


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## witzend (Sep 1, 2015)

Pauljenny said:


> It's 35 posts since I suggested continuing this thread on Admin's 10000th post thread. .



Why not get Admin to move the prize to this thread may get a few more signatures


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## camping_gaz (Sep 1, 2015)

Just to be able to park responsibly as i do without harassment from councils will do me fine, rather tan being herded and corralled,


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## Tbear (Sep 1, 2015)

[No message]


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## Pauljenny (Sep 1, 2015)

Tbear said:


> Are you trying to say something. Spit it out Man!!!
> 
> Richard



This is not the place to expectorate. There's a better thread for that


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## invalid (Sep 1, 2015)

Pauljenny said:


> This is not the place to expectorate. There's a better thread for that



Are you hopping for a share of the prize money?  :tongue:


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## Tbear (Sep 1, 2015)

Pauljenny said:


> This is not the place to expectorate. There's a better thread for that



I did expect you to orate a little better


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## Firefox (Sep 1, 2015)

There's quite a bit of capital investment in an aire. Even "existing" facilities need sign-age and going through all the council red tape and processes like TRO's  etc.

If you are in a council, at the moment, the decision could be to spend £50k on an aire, or not make cuts to the education budget for example. That's the type of decision they have to face. 

I would say if one is going to have a productive shot at this, then launch using power facebook/twitter accounts. Spend £20k on publicity, press releases, launch, advertising in magazines and on the net etc. Just starting up a random poorly worded petition is not going to cut it. The person starting this failed to realise what was needed as a pre-requisite to have any chance.

True there is no harm in trying, but if one doesn't try properly it's a waste. You may as well try to tow a 4 tonne motorhome out of a deep bog with a miniature poodle. In the end it's just not going to happen


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## Tbear (Sep 1, 2015)

Firefox said:


> There's quite a bit of capital investment in an aire. Even "existing" facilities need sign-age and going through all the council red tape and processes like TRO's  etc.
> 
> If you are in a council, at the moment, the decision could be to spend £50k on an aire, or not make cuts to the education budget for example. That's the type of decision they have to face.
> 
> ...



Vernon,

Next time you are near Peterborough you must let me show you 2 spots that would need a sign and a parking meter. Job done.

We do not have 20K

Still think you are being a tiny bit negative.  If people wish to waste there time in this manner its got to be better than spending 60 quid on going to watch a bunch of blokes kicking a bag of wind around.  Why be so bitter.

Richard


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## alcam (Sep 1, 2015)

Tbear said:


> I fear you have a very much better view of human nature than I have. In my experience once someone has made up their mind to hate something, it takes huge amounts of time and effort to make a dent in their feelings. Much easier to just work round them. Pick your battles and only try and fight the ones that you can win. If you had the resources to mount a serious campaign in just one local authority, would you pick Whitby? Or would you pick one of the Devon councils that are toying with the idea already.
> 
> Richard



You have passed the interview. You are now Wildcamping Master Tactician. 
What your saying makes lots of sense


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## Firefox (Sep 1, 2015)

I can always find spots without signs and parking meters, Richard ... apart from London or Brighton that is... have given up on those!

Actually, I am being extremely positive. I'm the only one who has responded to the request about how one might actually make a campaign like this succeed. I have studied the subject of these Gov petitions, and what makes them work or not. Not sure of the exact cash figures for campaign funds, but no doubt there are experts who can give advice about the best marketing and reach for your bucks.

As for 20k to kick start a campaign that quite a lot of people might believe in, it's not that difficult to raise using the various internet project funding sites. I'm not suggesting one person stumps it all up!! Barry Beavis raised 10k to defend his case in the Supreme Court against the parking companies in a couple of weeks. I was one person who chipped in, and I'd likely chip in to this as well, though not convinced it will fly to 100,000 even with the correct approach, as it is a special interest issue with a limited appeal.


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## vwalan (Sep 1, 2015)

but we dont need aires in uk . you can find a place to park almost anywhere in uk. might not exactly be as close to somewhere you want . but neither would an aire . 
just park where you wont be asked to move and park sensibly . 
if you cant then sell the m,home and use b&b,s .
london used to be easy . havent been since this daft chasrge thing . but usually cities every where are easy. a quiet side road or parking they are there . might have to pay a fee ok. 
there was talk of fort william the other day , i spoke to a mate that fulltimes in the fort . he says after 8 in the morning you must pay for a ticket till 6 in the evening . he has fulltimed there for the last 13 years . 
never uses campsites free parks or pays the fee.


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## Tbear (Sep 2, 2015)

vwalan said:


> but we dont need aires in uk . you can find a place to park almost anywhere in uk. might not exactly be as close to somewhere you want . but neither would an aire .
> just park where you wont be asked to move and park sensibly .
> if you cant then sell the m,home and use b&b,s .
> london used to be easy . havent been since this daft chasrge thing . but usually cities every where are easy. a quiet side road or parking they are there . might have to pay a fee ok.
> ...



I am sorry to bring this to a personal level but You don't need Aires in this country. You can find a place to park almost anywhere in the UK. Not the same for the majority of others and for them to feel safe. We do not all share your confidence, abilities or your vehicle.

Richard


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## Tbear (Sep 2, 2015)

Firefox said:


> I can always find spots without signs and parking meters, Richard ... apart from London or Brighton that is... have given up on those!
> 
> Actually, I am being extremely positive. I'm the only one who has responded to the request about how one might actually make a campaign like this succeed. I have studied the subject of these Gov petitions, and what makes them work or not. Not sure of the exact cash figures for campaign funds, but no doubt there are experts who can give advice about the best marketing and reach for your bucks.
> 
> As for 20k to kick start a campaign that quite a lot of people might believe in, it's not that difficult to raise using the various internet project funding sites. I'm not suggesting one person stumps it all up!! Barry Beavis raised 10k to defend his case in the Supreme Court against the parking companies in a couple of weeks. I was one person who chipped in, and I'd likely chip in to this as well, though not convinced it will fly to 100,000 even with the correct approach, as it is a special interest issue with a limited appeal.



Now we have switched roles. If you cannot get this lot to sign a petition for free, I doubt that they would fork out 20 grand. Even if it fails, folk will feel that they tried to do something so in at least that, it succeeds. 

As for marketing campaigns, the best ones require a serious tragedy to get them started. I'd rather do without the Aires.

Richard


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## horshamjack (Sep 2, 2015)

I very much doubt if this will reach the required number, but have signed all the same, nothing ventured nothing gained so to say
HJ


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## vwalan (Sep 2, 2015)

Tbear said:


> I am sorry to bring this to a personal level but You don't need Aires in this country. You can find a place to park almost anywhere in the UK. Not the same for the majority of others and for them to feel safe. We do not all share your confidence, abilities or your vehicle.
> 
> Richard



aires arent safe . folk do get broken in to on them .in germany /spain .france etc so thats no different . the trouble is nothing to do with vehicles its to do with common sense where to park. 
sea fronts in a tourist town ,no good back end of the town much better . its the bad parking and camping attitude of these you are talking about that cause the trouble . forget the other travellers they have always been around . 
i think many are really wishing they went back to campsites . 
the behaviour of many camping in daft places is a disgrace in anyones eyes . 
only have to travel around here in summer to understand why there are problems . m,homes parked outside rather expensive posh hotels on the roads . newquay gets loads of them . yet just a little way away large areas that nobody minds them staying . so long as chairs tables awnings etc arent used . parking not camping . 
eu law allows it. so does uk law.


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## Firefox (Sep 2, 2015)

Probably the people who would most benefit from Aires, are foreign tourists who would not be eligible to sign a UK Gov petition anyway!


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## derathe (Sep 2, 2015)

I found the aires system in france a wonderful way to stopover for a night or two, most with some facility to add water and/or dump waste. I believe they would make a great addition to motorhoming in the UK,including taking some pressure off wild camping, which is why I added my name to the petition. Besides nothing ventured nothing gained. And No one has to use them its all a matter of choice.


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## witzend (Sep 2, 2015)

*Family & Friends*

*Family & Friends could also be encouraged to sign this*.
 Personally I feel guilty using French Aires when asked if the UK has this type of facility for them to use so hope it gets a few more signings


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## Tbear (Sep 2, 2015)

vwalan said:


> aires arent safe . folk do get broken in to on them .in germany /spain .france etc so thats no different . the trouble is nothing to do with vehicles its to do with common sense where to park.
> sea fronts in a tourist town ,no good back end of the town much better . its the bad parking and camping attitude of these you are talking about that cause the trouble . forget the other travellers they have always been around .
> i think many are really wishing they went back to campsites .
> the behaviour of many camping in daft places is a disgrace in anyones eyes .
> ...



Again Alan, you are talking from your experience. We don,t all have it. People feel safer on Aires and its what they perceive as safe that makes them happy.

Richard


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## Tbear (Sep 2, 2015)

Firefox said:


> Probably the people who would most benefit from Aires, are foreign tourists who would not be eligible to sign a UK Gov petition anyway!



Attracting foreign tourists is a good thing so get your mates voting for them. 

Richard


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## witzend (Sep 2, 2015)

Firefox said:


> Probably the people who would most benefit from Aires, are foreign tourists who would not be eligible to sign a UK Gov petition anyway!



So let's get voting so they can use them as they accept us on theirs


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## Rich and Sarah (Sep 2, 2015)

*Aires in the UK*

Just signed it and added to my facebook page


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## CAL (Sep 2, 2015)

Just signed it, hope it works.


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## witzend (Sep 3, 2015)

swiftcamper said:


> As for paying for parking on an aire most on here want free camping so it's hardly going to be a good investment for any prospective investors.



The Idea of the petition is that local authority's are encouraged to make prevision's for motor home parking using public money. Not to get private investors involved  there are enough campsite's Now


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## Firefox (Sep 3, 2015)

witzend said:


> The Idea of the petition is that local authority's are encouraged to make prevision's for motor home parking using public money. Not to get private investors involved  there are enough campsite's Now




I don't think you have understood the argument. The investment by those interested in the petition, is to publicise, advertise, and market the petition to get 100,000 sigs. It's nothing to do with providing the facilities themselves.

Without the organisation and investment any such petition on an issue like this, has zero chance of getting 100,000 sigs.


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## vwalan (Sep 3, 2015)

mind even in france there is french passion and aires on vinyards etc many taking money so business even there is involved . these days the supermarkets allow m,homes sometimes .again its a business move . 
in spain carrefour very often have height or restrictions stopping m,homes parking . so we dont go in their stores anymore .  really in spain lidls seem to encourage m,homers so spend our money in them.


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## Jezport (Sep 3, 2015)

Just Signed it


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## witzend (Sep 3, 2015)

[No message]


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## Firefox (Sep 3, 2015)

I wouldn't bother signing this particular petition, you are correct.

But if a group approached the matter correctly, in an organised fashion, with proper wording, and that had some chance of success, I would still be prepared to sign and contribute, even though I didn't agree with all the aspects.


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## Steve121 (Sep 3, 2015)

Firefox said:


> I wouldn't bother signing this particular petition, you are correct.
> 
> But if a group approached the matter correctly, in an organised fashion, with proper wording, and that had some chance of success, I would still be prepared to sign and contribute, even though I didn't agree with all the aspects.



Agreed.


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## philstoke (Sep 4, 2015)

signed up


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## Kontiki (Sep 4, 2015)

I signed but don't think it will generate enough support. Anybody who doesn't motorhome won't understand the concept of having aires & just think of us in the same category of travellers or freeloaders not willing to pay campsite fees. We first discovered aires in the mid nineties in France, I don't remember us having us having to pay for anything other than water (can't recall any of the bournes having electric). Went through a phase of only ever using the free aires but realised paying the odd 5€ is still a bargain to stay in nice convenient locations. Even though we will use the odd campsite in this country they aren't suitable & are overpriced for what I want. 

Although not an ideal solution park & ride areas could be set up with an area set aside for motorhome overnight parking like the one at Canterbury.


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## philstoke (Sep 4, 2015)

Kontiki said:


> I signed but don't think it will generate enough support. Anybody who doesn't motorhome won't understand the concept of having aires & just think of us in the same category of travellers or freeloaders not willing to pay campsite fees. We first discovered aires in the mid nineties in France, I don't remember us having us having to pay for anything other than water (can't recall any of the bournes having electric). Went through a phase of only ever using the free aires but realised paying the odd 5€ is still a bargain to stay in nice convenient locations. Even though we will use the odd campsite in this country they aren't suitable & are overpriced for what I want.
> 
> Although not an ideal solution park & ride areas could be set up with an area set aside for motorhome overnight parking like the one at Canterbury.



Quite a few times when I have wanted to use a park & ride they have had height barriers, a lot of towns don't want us there so it seems


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## rugbyreddragon (Sep 4, 2015)

There have been over 3000 views but petition sign ups only stands at around 1300 so anybody who has viewed should sign up plus at least get spouse to also sign


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## angelaa (Sep 4, 2015)

Signed


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## Solwaybuggier (Sep 4, 2015)

Viewed petition - but refuse to sign as currently worded.  It doesn't "encourage" councils to provide aires - the heading says "*Compel* councils to provide Aires within their towns for the use of Motorhomes".  In view of the very sensible comments from Firefox and others, and at a time of enormous pressure on council funds, it's hard to think this will be other than counterproductive!


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## Tbear (Sep 4, 2015)

Solwaybuggier said:


> Viewed petition - but refuse to sign as currently worded.  It doesn't "encourage" councils to provide aires - the heading says "*Compel* councils to provide Aires within their towns for the use of Motorhomes".  In view of the very sensible comments from Firefox and others, and at a time of enormous pressure on council funds, it's hard to think this will be other than counterproductive!



Are you really naive enough to think that a council will get off their backside and create an aire if they do not have to. Who said anything about aires being free. They can both create and save councils money. Illegal travellers sites are a major cost to my local council.

Richard


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## RichardHelen262 (Sep 4, 2015)

Solwaybuggier said:


> Viewed petition - but refuse to sign as currently worded.  It doesn't "encourage" councils to provide aires - the heading says "*Compel* councils to provide Aires within their towns for the use of Motorhomes".  In view of the very sensible comments from Firefox and others, and at a time of enormous pressure on council funds, it's hard to think this will be other than counterproductive!



A few others have said the same about the wording,but none of them seem willing to do a petition that they think would do better.
Why not be the first to do a better petition,I for one will sign as I am sure many others would do


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## Tbear (Sep 5, 2015)

swiftcamper said:


> The numbers do not add up no petition no matter how well written or financed will succeed in gaining a hundred thousand signatures.
> The big clubs would then find a way of
> Muscling in and ensuring Aires never happen they are against them as are most of their members who have been brainwashed into thinking wildcamping is not only illegal but not safe.
> Privately funded commercial Aires may appear but most will never pay so these will never become widespread.



There are councillors and private individuals that look kindly on us already. Promoting ourselves in the correct place to the correct people may not be a total success every time but the more people try the more chance of it building momentum and the naysayers not getting their own way. If I where a councillor reading this, I would interpret it that half of the people on here where disinterested at best so why should they bother sticking their necks out for us? A bit of positive thinking can go a long way.

Richard


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## ScamperVan (Sep 5, 2015)

Petitions 101

https://petition.parliament.uk/

Change.org


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## maingate (Sep 5, 2015)

helen262 said:


> A few others have said the same about the wording,but none of them seem willing to do a petition that they think would do better.
> Why not be the first to do a better petition,I for one will sign as I am sure many others would do



I bet you still believe in Father Christmas. 

The truth of the matter is that these sort of petitions about motorhoming come up on a regular basis. They never get anywhere because the vast majority motorhomers are selfish individuals who are too lazy to get off their backsides to do anything about it.


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## witzend (Sep 5, 2015)

Well anyone who makes the effort to do some good for the community deserves a vote not critisim perhaps they never had the education of a privilaged few who seem unable to support any one that didn't. In my opion it's better to do something than nothing


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## Solwaybuggier (Sep 5, 2015)

[No message]


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## Tbear (Sep 5, 2015)

[No message]


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## Solwaybuggier (Sep 5, 2015)

TBear, Of course most councils haven't set up Aires - but it was you who said "Are you really naive enough to think that a council will get off their backside and create an aire if they do not have to?"  And some have - not many.

Yes, I've been to Honfleur in summer - and also to a fair few French Aires which were pretty quiet even in summer.

But surely all your arguments (with which I agree) about potential benefits just highlight the fact that spelling out these potential benefits to local councils would be more effective than petitions to central government?


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## invalid (Sep 6, 2015)

As a councillor I can assure you that if wasn’t for matches being provided, most councillors would still be lighting their cigars by rubbing two sticks together. Yes by law we are still obliged to provide sites for travellers, but mention it at a council meeting and see the numbers of people almost die of fright that their property values might be affected. Aires, you might as well suggest building a holiday encampment for plague carrying zombies. Councils are usually populated by self-serving narrow minded xenophobes, you want change? It has to be forced on most council’s by government with punitive actions if not provided.Sad but unfortunatly thats the way it is.


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

Solwaybuggier said:


> TBear, Of course most councils haven't set up Aires - but it was you who said "Are you really naive enough to think that a council will get off their backside and create an aire if they do not have to?"  And some have - not many.
> 
> Yes, I've been to Honfleur in summer - and also to a fair few French Aires which were pretty quiet even in summer.
> 
> But surely all your arguments (with which I agree) about potential benefits just highlight the fact that spelling out these potential benefits to local councils would be more effective than petitions to central government?



I agree, which is why I spent about a year explaining it to my local police commissioner, MP, and council. However these people are masters at saying lots but never actually producing anything. Both MP and police commissioner where very helpful and supportive but eventually you hit Parking which is like smashing your head into a concrete. It hurts and does very little good. Even when they bother to answer your emails or phone calls, it's that bit is DOE or Highways or the Police. You challenge that all that they do involves all the different departments but all you get is waffle and they have given you a lot of precious time. All I walked away with was a promise of consideration in the new city development. Shelved shortly afterwards.

Please try it. Lots on here will help you with the law and regs, also with ideas. As you say, there are Aires in this country so someone has done far better than me. I genuinely wish you luck.

Richard

Parish councils can be more helpful and easier to deal with than city ones. Mine at the time unfortunately where a bunch of plonkers.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear said:


> How many councils are there in this country and how many have aires.
> 
> An aire can make a lot of money. Honfleur is often mentioned on here. Have you ever visited it during the summer hols. There are also profits that are more difficult to quantify. Stops the boy racers using the park at night. May well reduce vandalism and inappropriate behaviour. Helps with the traveller problem. Attracts tourists with money to spend.
> 
> ...



I have contacted over 430 councils and also Motorway Services operators.   

There a 6 council Aires in NI plus one at a National Trust Property in NI.   These were obtained by the efforts of Chris and Brian Quinn backed by clubs in Northern Ireland over a ten year period.  I have received costing from 2 of these authorities.  One cost £50,000 to provide the other has only given the cost of the Borne Terminal at £5,000 plus connection which was provided by the council staff.

We have no Aires as such over here.   A few councils will permit use overnight, but are not willing to declare any of the locations as official Aires.   They still retain the TRO banning overnight occupation but choose to temporarily ignore it.  Many officers state if they go official they will have to go to council for planning permission for change of use and a caravan site licence which would be turned down by the council members.  The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act allows such provision but council and officers choose to ignore this.

Two MSAs have toilet emptying facilities as has one council.   Only one allows motorhome users access restricting their use to coaches only. There is no fresh water available at these locations.  The Dept. for Transport even removed the provision of Borne facilities in a circular 2 years ago.   Anything they do now has to be commercially driven.  They stated that operators could provide facilities only where they see sufficient demand for them to finance them.   They also removed the requirement of preserved parking space and allowed them to be taken over for other commercial enterprises such as vehicle washes or sales kiosks.  In the UK money now prevails over service.

There are plenty who say they want Aires, but they want to go it alone and not work with others.   There are also plenty who will sign up to groups and sign petitions but when asked for commitment, they vanish into the background.   There is frankly no commitment by 99.9% of motorhome users for UK Aires.   Only 2 manufacturers or dealers offered support for a campaign to obtain UK Aires.  When asked to support a UK group, not one forum backed it. 

Without commitment we stand no chance.  The response from Government to petitions is " it is not their responsibility and it is up to the local authorities to make provision if they can show a demand".    As for that they are more inclined to ban any vehicle over 3,500kg completely particularly if it has been adapted for sleeping.  A lot of car parks have 1,500kg or 2,000kg weight limits and the majority 3,500kg.  There is a distinct unmet need for parking for larger passenger vehicles, as many authorities consider that large vehicle only start a 7,500kg and these are restricted to goods vehicles.   

There are over 250,000 motorhomes registered but it is very hard to get more than 1,000 users to even sign a petition never mind do more.   Getting 100,000 is pie in the sky.

There is a shown shortfall of all types of Traveller Sites and rather than providing itinerant pitches most authorities insist on providing static locations so that they can settle the community off the road, so they would not provide such facilities for tourists.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear said:


> How many councils are there in this country and how many have aires.
> 
> An aire can make a lot of money. Honfleur is often mentioned on here. Have you ever visited it during the summer hols. There are also profits that are more difficult to quantify. Stops the boy racers using the park at night. May well reduce vandalism and inappropriate behaviour. Helps with the traveller problem. Attracts tourists with money to spend.
> 
> ...



I have contacted every UK local authority (over 430 councils) and also every Motorway Services operator and major trunk road services operators.   

There a 6 council Aires in NI plus one at a National Trust Property in NI.   These were obtained by the efforts of Chris and Brian Quinn backed by clubs in Northern Ireland over a ten year period.  I have received costing from 2 of these NI authorities.  One cost £50,000 to provide the other has only given the cost of the Borne Terminal at £5,000 plus connection which was provided by the council staff.  These were financed 50-50 by the NI Tourist Board and the Local Authorities.

We have no Aires as such over here.   A few councils will permit use overnight, but are not willing to declare any of the locations as official Aires.   They still retain the TRO banning overnight occupation but choose to temporarily ignore it.  Many officers state if they go official, they will have to go to council for planning permission for change of use and a caravan site licence which would be turned down by the council members.  The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act allows such provision but council and officers choose to ignore this.  

Two MSAs have toilet emptying facilities, as has one council.   Only one MSA (Cobham) allows motorhome users access, the others restricting their use to coaches only. There is no fresh water available at these locations.  The Deptartment for Transport (DfT) even removed the provision of Borne facilities in MSA in a circular 2 years ago.   Anything they do now has to be commercially driven.  They stated that operators could provide facilities only where they see sufficient demand for them to finance them.  Gloucester Services (Westmoorland Ltd) declined to provide facilities due to the cost of provision and maintenance, plus the risk of misuse.  DfT also removed the requirement of preserved parking space and allowed them to be taken over for other commercial enterprises such as vehicle washes or sales kiosks.  In the UK money now prevails over service.  There is provision for continental picnic areas (Toilets and picnic tables, but No shops, Fuel Stations etc.) on UK road network but these must be commercially provided and parking is just as restricted as MSAs.   No operator will provide such a facility where there is no commercial return on its outlay.   Our Government now declares itself as "Hands Off Government".

There are plenty who say they want Aires, but they want to go it alone and not work with others.   There are also plenty who will sign up to groups and sign petitions but when asked for commitment, they vanish into the background.   There is frankly no commitment by 99.9% of motorhome users for UK Aires.   Only 2 manufacturers or dealers offered support for a campaign to obtain UK Aires.  When asked to support a UK group, not one forum backed it. 

Without commitment we stand no chance.  The response from Government to petitions is " it is not their responsibility and it is up to the local authorities to make provision if they can show a demand".    As for that they are more inclined to ban any vehicle over 3,500kg completely particularly if it has been adapted for sleeping.  A lot of car parks have 1,500kg or 2,000kg weight limits and the majority 3,500kg.  There is a distinct unmet need for parking for larger passenger vehicles, as many authorities consider that large vehicle only start a 7,500kg and these are restricted to goods vehicles.   

There are over 250,000 motorhomes registered but it is very hard to get more than 1,000 users to even sign a petition never mind do more.   Getting 100,000 is pie in the sky.  Only signatures of UK residents will be considered by UKGov. and it has set its own petition site up for such petitions.  The "Change Is" petitions are not restricted to UK signatures only, so will be rejected out of hand by the UK Authorities.

There is a shown shortfall of all types of Traveller Sites and rather than providing itinerant pitches most authorities insist on providing static locations so that they can settle the community off the road, so they would not provide such facilities for tourists.


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

I seem to remember John that you where one of a handful of people that tried to help me. Thankyou again for that.

Perhaps we need to take a lesson from the French and have a proper old fashioned protest. How about a meet on the Strand, outside the Royal Courts of Justice, starting at 08.00hrs Monday morning. 50 vans would be more than enough to raise our profile. 

Richard


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

I am beginning to believe more and more that it needs a spectacle. My 50 motorhome comment was meant tongue in cheek but perhaps a large group of motorhomes moving at a snail pace in the London rush hour is what it needs. Unlike the farmers we do not have a team of negotiators standing ready as this lot could not agree on what day it is, never mind get organised into a cohesive force. Perhaps we are just doomed to fail but I find it difficult to just roll over and give in.

Richard


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## maingate (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear said:


> I am beginning to believe more and more that it needs a spectacle. My 50 motorhome comment was meant tongue in cheek but perhaps a large group of motorhomes moving at a snail pace in the London rush hour is what it needs. Unlike the farmers *we do not have a team of negotiators standing ready* as this lot could not agree on what day it is, never mind get organised into a cohesive force. Perhaps we are just doomed to fail but I find it difficult to just roll over and give in.
> 
> Richard



Don't we?

What about the TMCTO. ?


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## runnach (Sep 6, 2015)

Having enjoyed aires in France, I have no issue with the principal however I believe the mentality of British and their councils entrenched in a different world.

Let me explain, lets take Scarborough as an example. There was talk of an aire at Seamer. glorified car park.

What would have happened is more TROs in the area than you can shake a stick at . Want to settle up in Whitby no ...off you go to  Seamer...

That isn't wild camping ? that is being coralled to a place I don't want to be . Might as well stop on a camp site!

Because my parents lived in Scarborough and latterly Filey...I know numerous places to park up ....arrive , leave no mess only sign of me being there is my tyre tracks ..that is what we should be fighting about sod aires , the right to park and move on with no distress to anyone.

That is the challenge not aires, councils mentality adequately suggest, create an aire create tro's to prevent other spots .....to plead for aires is self defeating.

We should be fighting to demonstrate we can park up spend an evening not encroaching on traders or residents ....this is the real challenge surely ? 

Channa


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

maingate said:


> Don't we?
> 
> What about the TMCTO. ?



You think that most of this lot know that that stands for The Motorhome Tourism Organisation and a agree with their agenda???

New Website Coming Soon

Richard


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## maingate (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear said:


> You think that most of this lot know that that stands for The Motorhome Tourism Organisation and a agree with their agenda???
> 
> New Website Coming Soon
> 
> Richard



I expect nothing of motorhomers. Most of them are too lazy to search for the answer to a problem with their vehicle. They just ask on forums for easy and cheap solutions, using the goodwill of others to solve their problems. Sometimes they never get back to the forum with an outcome.


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

channa said:


> Having enjoyed aires in France, I have no issue with the principal however I believe the mentality of British and their councils entrenched in a different world.
> 
> Let me explain, lets take Scarborough as an example. There was talk of an aire at Seamer. glorified car park.
> 
> ...




How many folk would abuse that as they do now parking in front of guest houses and their like. It's a defined area or nothing I am afraid. I would welcome sensible TRO,s that limit the Prats that constantly give us a bad name. Wild camping to me is not parking in front of someone's house blocking out the view and light from their front windows as some do. It's about being out in the countryside in the fresh air. If you wish to park a large vehicle in an urban environment, it is only reasonable to expect restrictions. As I said before if we cannot agree among ourselves what chance to we stand of convincing others. 

If we had an Aire in Whitby are you saying that you would ignore it and park just anywhere you felt like.

Richard


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## runnach (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear;566554
If we had an Aire in Whitby are you saying that you would ignore it and park just anywhere you felt like.

Richard[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> That is exactly what I am saying . I have no wish to be controlled and told what and when I will do it ...might as well sign up for the Army eh ? That doesn't mean I have to be disrespectful to other users of the countryside or businesses.
> 
> You ask a loaded question Richard, no desire for an Aire so yes ignore, Park anywhere I felt like ? Hopefully i have made enough posts you know my measure and disrespect to others enjoyment is not part of the agenda I would rather behave responsibly. I know more places in Whitby and surrounding area to park up and leave no trace of me being there. I believe the introduction of aires will trigger an avalanche of tro's and coral people to that aire ...That is not wild camping but manipulation of a situation, I seriously suspect there will be a charge which per se not against but dis proportionate to using a local campsite or farm in the end.
> 
> ...


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## izwozral (Sep 6, 2015)

That statement is so true & applicable, not just to aires/parking but to all aspects of British life. 
David, you paint a wonderful picture of rural France in your posts, it is a joyful reminder of when I worked there many years ago. Thank you.


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## carol (Sep 6, 2015)

That's why I've always wanted to live in France. They have such a laissez faire attitude. Over the years I've been there we've pulled up for lunch or whatever and no-one takes a second look. People just assume they have a right to do whatever they're doing....And as David said, everything isn't seen as a money making opportunity as it is in this country.


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## vwalan (Sep 6, 2015)

france is great i agree but i never find it a problem in uk. parking or stopping to eat etc . overnight . 
there really are loads of placves . villages have lots of space . the bigger towns etc a bit too busy , just avoid the bigger places . round here theres hundreds of places ,but if you want to be at a tourist beach or sea front thats hard work. between the main places there are nice quiet places to stop. free usually as well. every village has water etc .


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## Tbear (Sep 6, 2015)

channa said:


> That is exactly what I am saying . I have no wish to be controlled and told what and when I will do it ...might as well sign up for the Army eh ? That doesn't mean I have to be disrespectful to other users of the countryside or businesses.
> 
> You ask a loaded question Richard, no desire for an Aire so yes ignore, Park anywhere I felt like ? Hopefully i have made enough posts you know my measure and disrespect to others enjoyment is not part of the agenda I would rather behave responsibly. I know more places in Whitby and surrounding area to park up and leave no trace of me being there. I believe the introduction of aires will trigger an avalanche of tro's and coral people to that aire ...That is not wild camping but manipulation of a situation, I seriously suspect there will be a charge which per se not against but dis proportionate to using a local campsite or farm in the end.
> 
> ...



You must be the only one on here that thinks anyone in any vehicle will ever get the right to park everywhere all the time. 

We are all regimented to an extent. It is called the rule of law. 

While people are selfish and want everything their own way, sites like this I fear will be totally impotent at causing any change for the good. When councillors read comments like "no desire for an Aire so yes ignore, Park anywhere I felt like". I am sure we will not get any form of Aire. You have your wish. Shame about the rest of us.

Richard


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## camping_gaz (Sep 6, 2015)

channa said:


> That is exactly what I am saying . I have no wish to be controlled and told what and when I will do it ...might as well sign up for the Army eh ? That doesn't mean I have to be disrespectful to other users of the countryside or businesses.
> 
> You ask a loaded question Richard, no desire for an Aire so yes ignore, Park anywhere I felt like ? Hopefully i have made enough posts you know my measure and disrespect to others enjoyment is not part of the agenda I would rather behave responsibly. I know more places in Whitby and surrounding area to park up and leave no trace of me being there. I believe the introduction of aires will trigger an avalanche of tro's and coral people to that aire ...That is not wild camping but manipulation of a situation, I seriously suspect there will be a charge which per se not against but dis proportionate to using a local campsite or farm in the end.
> 
> ...



Too right the freedom to park responsibly, is our fight, 
People are trying to recreate their ventures abroad, and then when they go abroad they want to make that like home,

If they put aires here you wont be able anywhere, without being virtually frog marched herded and corralled onto these aires,

No we need the freedom to park responsibly,


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## vwalan (Sep 6, 2015)

in uk you do have that freedom . 
its just most use it to park in daft places . 
some will never learn . 
there is always somewhere to park where you want . 
you just have to want to park in a sensible place.


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## runnach (Sep 6, 2015)

Tbear said:


> You must be the only one on here that thinks anyone in any vehicle will ever get the right to park everywhere all the time.
> 
> We are all regimented to an extent. It is called the rule of law.
> 
> ...



Richard I have always found you a balanced individual that speaks sense but you misquote me please re read ...What I said is a simple concept create an aire that will deny other wilding spots ! by TRO's  simple...that is a significant issue to me .slightly different to parking where the fook i want 

No where did I say park where I like your lead question if you care to re read...I said park without hinderance to other users and residents etc ...In my opinion idea of an aire is flawed. All that will happen is herded onto authorised campsites with lack of facilities to boot half of which I dont need.

Forget aires , councils not even ready for the concept, how about pressuring that we can stop the night at venues unhindered? ....lots of examples in France we can use to support the cause but quite frankly we shouldnt need to us the French embracement .... I pull up sleep leave tyre tracks as a trace sounds more sensible to me .Always some twat that will rock the boat...Aires barking up the wrong tree all that will happen if succesful is the withdrawal of wc areas .......

Channa


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## izwozral (Sep 6, 2015)

I do wonder how long the aires would last in this country given the amount of vandalism & anti social behaviour that is so endemic here. Would I want to stay on an aire covered in graffiti - no. How long would the taps last before being damaged? How long would the waste point be free of, say, bricks or other blockages? How about ehu points, would they be adequately protected against vandalism & what happens if some yob gets electrocuted? Would UK aires be a focal point for yobs to cause mischief?

Am I just being a gloomy git with a very jaundiced view of British society as a whole?


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## runnach (Sep 6, 2015)

izwozral said:


> I do wonder how long the aires would last in this country given the amount of vandalism & anti social behaviour that is so endemic here. Would I want to stay on an aire covered in graffiti - no. How long would the taps last before being damaged? How long would the waste point be free of, say, bricks or other blockages? How about ehu points, would they be adequately protected against vandalism & what happens if some yob gets electrocuted? Would UK aires be a focal point for yobs to cause mischief?
> 
> Am I just being a gloomy git with a very jaundiced view of British society as a whole?



Yes you are a gloomy git of the highest order :tongue:Vandalism will and can happen where ever you are we dont need aires to prove that ..my point is we should be fighting for a right to park legit benefits surely ?...all aires will do is exclude a lot of camping spots we currently enjoy. mentality of councils ...I have repeated myself from previous posts and dont apologise...pretty easy to see how the land lies 

Channa


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## izwozral (Sep 6, 2015)

Channa, I was merely considering whether UK aires would be just be another target for vandalism. I am not putting forth my point for or against UK aires. I would probably use one if I felt it was safe to do so & if it was convenient for walking or bussing to a location worth visiting.
I choose to camp/park/sleep as a convenience to me, to explore that locale, being mindful that I don't upset anyone. This could be a wilding spot, camp site, friends drive, pub stop, wherever, if I felt an aire ticked the box then I would use it. 
Would the placing of aires deplete the wilding spots?  My guess is maybe we would lose a few, certainly not all.
I am not a purist when it comes to being a member of this wonderful wildcamping community, I am happy to dip my hand into my pocket on occasion & pay for a site if it suits.

There are members who never use a paid site, if it works for them, that's great. I don't think they need over worry about wilding spots disappearing because of a few aires being sited.


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## Tbear (Sep 7, 2015)

channa said:


> Yes* you are a gloomy git *of the highest order :tongue:Vandalism will and can happen where ever you are we dont need aires to prove that ..my point is we should be fighting for a right to park legit benefits surely ?...all aires will do is exclude a lot of camping spots we currently enjoy. mentality of councils ...I have repeated myself from previous posts and dont apologise...pretty easy to see how the land lies
> 
> Channa



Pot and kettle Mr Channa. What evidence is there that we would see a huge rise in TRO's. If they where easy for councils to obtain, then the travelling community would have got us banned off the road years ago. We already have Camp sites, Travellers sites, CS's, CL's and none of these seem to have caused a huge increase in TRO's. I can see that you think that you don't need Aires but the number of vans on the road increases and the wilding spots become more and more cramped.. We get banned from more and more spots, many will appreciate an Aire. The sooner they happen the fewer spots we will be banned from.

The Naysayers and the ones against Aires seem to be far more proactive on here so I will go with the majority and say no more.

Richard


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## RichardHelen262 (Sep 7, 2015)

As TBear says if we had aires then there would be less motorhomes parking up where it seems to annoy some folks, and it would just be nice to be able to visit a place knowing there would be somewhere to stay,nobody is saying that if we had aires that is where we would have to park,it would just be nice to have that choice.
And yes it is nicer to stay in the country side,or at the seaside,but sometimes people want to stay in the towns so they can have a meal and a drink, the fact that there are always many motorhomes overnighting in the leisure centre car park at Stratford upon Avon shows there is a need for such places


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## camping_gaz (Sep 7, 2015)

One of my new sayings, is that some folk have more foreskin than foresight, 
seems quite applicable to this thread, just cus you cant see it doesn't mean it might not happen,


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 7, 2015)

maingate said:


> Don't we?
> 
> What about the TMCTO. ?



Hi Jim

I have given up on TMCTO.  The Motorhome Tourism Organisation was a good concept, however it cannot be left to one person to keep it together.  No matter how good a website, or Facebook Group, is.   It needs people to get organised to make it effective.

Keith insisted that  as a "Not for profit" organisation we could not ask for funding.  Without funds no organisation can be effective.  All he wanted was the cost of the webhosting and anyone else had to foot the bill from their own pocket.   He refused help with the cost of updating software and insisted on cobbling together bits of free software.  This was the downfall of the parking map as he both ran out of time, power and inclination to correct the mapping problems.  I have a list of 2000 official parking places and also a further list of authorities where parking of motorhome is not permitted on any of their car parks.

Earlier this year I asked the group what the site was about and received only one reply and Keith later posted when pushed.  With no support I felt I could no longer represent myself to the authorities as on official of the organisation.

We had an opportunity to enter talks with the head of parking at Cornwall County Council and other councillors and officers regarding "Motorhome use off sites" but I was in Spain at the time and despite putting out a call for anyone to meet them, all I got was silence.  The General election got in the way when I got back to the UK. I had other personal and vehicle issues at the other end of the country to deal with.     I was working up a good rapport with other authorities officers.   

The Facebook Group was taken over by the "Click to like" and "Click to join" brigade who had no interest in the issues but looked on it as another page to add to their list.  So the membership figures actually meant nothing.  The page was filling with "Thanks for the Add" post with no other comments, the issues were getting lost in the dross.

Keith than proposed that the organisation split and he ran the Motor Tourism Website where he intended to ask tourist bodies what facilities they provided and to leave the campaigning to others.   That is when I cried off.

Without an organisation with active members willing to get involved then nothing will happen.   Petitions have been shown to be a waste of effort.


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 7, 2015)

Tbear said:


> You think that most of this lot know that that stands for The Motorhome Tourism Organisation and a agree with their agenda???
> 
> New Website Coming Soon
> 
> Richard



No matter how good a website is created it will not do anything to address the actual issues.   It is bums off seats that is needed not computer warriors.


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## maingate (Sep 7, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> I have given up on TMCTO.  The Motorhome Tourism Organisation was a good concept, however it cannot be left to one person to keep it together.  No matter how good a website, or Facebook Group, is.   It needs people to get organised to make it effective.
> 
> ...



I am very sorry to hear that John, the TMCTO was the best chance (and only one) to make any kind of progress with overnight spots. I referred a number of Council Officials and others to your website but perhaps I could have done more. The TMCTO provided some action and energy instead of just internet drivel on forums.

Thanks for your time and hard work on our behalf, some of us appreciate it a lot. :wave:


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 7, 2015)

maingate said:


> I am very sorry to hear that John, the TMCTO was the best chance (and only one) to make any kind of progress with overnight spots. I referred a number of Council Officials and others to your website but perhaps I could have done more. The TMCTO provided some action and energy instead of just internet drivel on forums.
> 
> Thanks for your time and hard work on our behalf, some of us appreciate it a lot. :wave:



Thanks Jim

I felt that Keith was talking the site in the direction of being an organ to simply regurgitate the content of tourist board sites such as campsite info and reviews.  He seemed to want to distance himself from active campaigning.

I have not given up the fight but cannot in all honesty claim to speak for anyone but myself.   I was the only one posting on the TMCTO website for the last 18 months and Keith decided to let the website whither in favour of the Facebook Group as he saw that as a better way to boost his membership numbers.   The original group dropped out one by one and I was on my own with no real backing.

I am quite willing to help anyone who is willing to put some effort into this, but not go it alone.  I have come to the conclusion that online groups remain just that.  What is needed is a proper campaigning organisation willing to get together not just sit and pontificate at the computer.


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## rugbyreddragon (Sep 7, 2015)

There appears to be another petition on the go. I have copied the link in below for members to consider/debate the merits etc:


 "Rt Hon David Cameron MP: Allow Motorhomes overnight parking as on Aires and Stellplatz"

Petition by James Brownsett · 4,767 supporters

Here's the link if you wish to view it. I have signed it:

Petition


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## grandadbaza (Sep 7, 2015)

I have  signed both it is a shame that all petitions for the same ends cannot be lumped together for more impact


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## Deleted member 967 (Sep 8, 2015)

grandadbaza said:


> I have  signed both it is a shame that all petitions for the same ends cannot be lumped together for more impact



The government has stated it will only consider petition that originate from its own website.  https://www.gov.uk/petition-government


> How petitions work
> 1.You create a petition.* Only British citizens and UK residents can create or sign a petition*.
> 2.You get 5 people to support your petition. We’ll tell you how to do this when you’ve created your petition.
> 3.We check your petition, then publish it. We only reject petitions that don’t meet the standards for petitions.
> ...



*The Government are not responsible for creating UK Aires it is the Local Authorities*.

The last petition of this type I saw on the official site had very few signature as he had simply posted a link to Change Is.    Do it properly and get the support and things may change continue as they are and you may as well shout into the wind.


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## Jenrai (Nov 14, 2015)

We should block central London with motorhomes


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 14, 2015)

Jenrai said:


> We should block central London with motorhomes



Yup, I`m up for that, a few thousand MH`s driving around london in convoy for a weekend would certainly get noticed.


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## invalid (Nov 15, 2015)

Do they still drive on the left in London? Thought they might have changed it to the right side of the road, to keep in line with the majority view?


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## Firefox (Nov 15, 2015)

grandadbaza said:


> I have  signed both it is a shame that all petitions for the same ends cannot be lumped together for more impact



I think you have misunderstood the deeper idea of the petition site. It is not to give additional democracy. It is to give the illusion of democracy!


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## runnach (Nov 15, 2015)

My issue with it all is people I believe yearn/think the situation will be similar to that in France.

I don't think it will, British local authority mentality is significantly different.

The difference I think is this you get your aires. perhaps bornes ehu and black/grey water disposal. The way our local authorities think every other wilding spot will receive a TRO  that garners support with the secretary of state because the need has been catered for.

It is reason for a tRO rather than seen as reliving pressure on other areas in the vicinity. (that is the difference between France and the UK)

I for one do not want to spend my time amongst others on a poorly laid carpark with noise and all that ensues ...might as well put a few quid too and visit a campsite.

I want the ability to go about my business responsibly and unhindered without causing distress to anyone. The UK authorities seem not to understand NOR want to understand that notion 

Channa


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