# Bio ethanol heater, inspired by Flyboy



## whitevanwoman (Jun 6, 2013)

I have been inspired by Flyboy and his fantastically simple Bio Ethanol heater which he demonstrated at the Music Meet to make one for my van, as an alternative to using my butane gas camping stove. 

I've got a small (roughly about the size of a 4.5kg blue gas bottle) cast iron chimenea which, except as a candle holder, has never been much use and more of an ornament, so it is at the bottom of my "car boot sale" box, but I'll be rescuing it tomorrow. Whilst on my travels since the music meet, I've bought a metal mug and  some metal pan scrubs so all I need now is the Bio Ethanol fuel but it seems to be tricky stuff to find. 

B&Q claim to stock it but it's out of stock at all the branches local to me. I've called into a couple of garden centres over the past few days and no one has heard of it. The only real source I've found online is this 5L Premium Bioethanol - Order Online which I'd probably go for if I'm happy with my set up but it's a big amount to buy simply to test the set up initially.

Does anyone have any better sources for buying this either cheaper or in smaller quantities? And as I'm quite excited about the prospect of a safe van heater, I'd like to actually get some from a real shop over the next day or so, rather than waiting for delivery next week, which will mean having to be at home next week. But a link to a cheaper online source would be welcome too. 

I'm not far from Kendal so anywhere in North Lancashire or Southern/Mid Cumbria is ok to travel to for it.


----------



## carol (Jun 6, 2013)

Yes, saw it and was really impressed. Not just with the heater but with Steve's inventiveness!


----------



## n8rbos (Jun 6, 2013)

As its produced from sugerbeet pop along to a farmer


----------



## noarlunga (Jun 6, 2013)

I cook on bio-ethanol and use the econol fuel as per your link.  Before I bought a 5L can I tested my stove using meths which is pretty much the same stuff but with methyl alcohol added. If your fire works with meths it should work with econol.

Alternatively ring 'The Naked Flame' and see if they'll send you a single litre of bio-ethanol to test the principle. Or they may have a supplier near you.

Contact us - Contact Us - The Naked Flame - Gel fires - Gel Burners - Bio Fires - Bio Fuel Fires - Fire Gel - Bio Ethanol Fuel - Bio Ethanol Fires - Bio Fuel

Johnny A


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 6, 2013)

noarlunga said:


> I cook on bio-ethanol and use the econol fuel as per your link.  Before I bought a 5L can I tested my stove using meths which is pretty much the same stuff but with methyl alcohol added. If your fire works with meths it should work with econol.
> 
> Alternatively ring 'The Naked Flame' and see if they'll send you a single litre of bio-ethanol to test the principle. Or they may have a supplier near you.
> 
> ...



Thank for the suggestions. I've got a Tranjia and some meths so can test it with meths outside tomorrow. If I order from econol tomorrow morning, there's a chance it may arrive on Sat. 

@N8rbos, not a lot of beet growing farmers round here :lol-053:  they mainly grow sheep


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 6, 2013)

I have some here and can drop some off to you on sat as I'm passing on my way to Darwen


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 6, 2013)

outtolunch said:


> I have some here and can drop some off to you on sat as I'm passing on my way to Darwen



You lovely man, thank you very much, I shall pay you for it with the same quantity of drinkable alcohol :lol-053:

I'll message you on FB with address, postcode, mobile number etc although, because of tricky access along my street, it might be best to meet at Truckstop. I'll bring down the gas heater and regulators that I've got, for you to have a quick look at too - thanks for the link by the way.

Any idea roughly what time? And why Darwen? Apart from a nice walk up to Jubilee Tower, there's not much else worth visiting in Darwen!!!


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 6, 2013)

Bio Ethanol Fuel | UK Suppliers of Bio Ethanol Fuel For Fires - Cheapest Guaranteed

link to where I bulk purchased my fuel

depends when I get up going down for a wake starts when the Alexander opens but no set time as this is part 2 one year on from the funeral


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 6, 2013)

No probs, I'll send you my mobile number and just drop me a text when you leave home with a rough ETA at Truckstop.


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 7, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> No probs, I'll send you my mobile number and just drop me a text when you leave home with a rough ETA at Truckstop.



ok just checked and shoud be passing about 12.00-13.00 but will confirm when leaving


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

Hi thanks for the kind words its was great to meet you all look forwards to seeing you all again soon.

Any DIY Shop that sells Super Value goods Will be able to get the fuel for you from their stockiest  which is (stax,s) .

Also most garden centre's sell La Hacienda Goods which include a range of Bio Ethanol Fires and fuel by the litre.

Please let me know if your struggling to find any i can supply it for you.


----------



## Deleted member 4850 (Jun 7, 2013)

​


Flyboy said:


> Hi thanks for the kind words its was great to meet you all look forwards to seeing you all again soon.
> 
> Any DIY Shop that sells Super Value goods Will be able to get the fuel for you from their stockiest  which is (stax,s) .
> 
> ...



I was utterly delighted to see your heater and am in the process of making my own right now. I will go on a fuel quest here and post if I find a supplier.  Like WVW I am very keen to try it out.

Thank you so much for your kind sharing of your ideas and skills...I think you're a genius! It was lovely meeting you and I owe you much beer whenever we next meet as a warm van is beyond rubies!

Hilary


----------



## oldish hippy (Jun 7, 2013)

with regard to the heater do you put something in the cup to absorb the fuel as you are only burning the vapour off ?


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

oldish hippy said:


> with regard to the heater do you put something in the cup to absorb the fuel as you are only burning the vapour off ?



Yes it fibreglass Cheap on ebay, for testing you can us a bit of rock wool or a  stainless steel pan scourers.

Just A Note Please Look For A Alternative Canister For Making Your Fire Other Than The Gas Bottles These Things Are Lethal To Play With And you Will Only Make One Mistake

It Can Be Done. But I,am Just Another Nutter.


----------



## herbenny (Jun 7, 2013)

Flyboy said:


> Yes it fibreglass Cheap on ebay, for testing you can us a bit of rock wool or a  stainless steel pan scourers.



Think you could be onto something here Steve...knock a few out and sell them.  I would certainly be interested in buying one from you ...I was really impressed, I think we all were it looked really professional :wave:


----------



## oldish hippy (Jun 7, 2013)

wasnt thinking of making one was just curious at moment as i have other things to sort out but do have weird ideas that might improve on itewm members come up with and theni throw open to forum every now and again sometime someone will run with it and if it works then good on them


----------



## lebesset (Jun 7, 2013)

anyone calculated the cost of using bioethanol ?
a 6Kg propane would produce approx 300, 000 KJ , to produce the same amount of heat from bioethanol would need some 20 litres I think 

if I am correct about uk prices that makes bioethanol double the cost if you buy it in bulk 

or am I missing something ?


----------



## wildman (Jun 7, 2013)

I have not seen the heater in question so there may be a simple answer to my question, but why not make a drip feed diesel heater and run on central heating fuel or red diesel.


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

The idea behind my fire was to make something portable that can be used inside/outside when needed and is space saving in the van. i have done a bit of research into the burning of the fuel and well aware of any dangers that come with it.

have spent 3hours per day for the last 3 weeks in my van plus four days/ nights at the rally  deliberately trying cause an incident that would put me in danger other than kicking the fire over purposely i found it quite safe for use. all it takes is common sense just like when leaving your cooker on or any naked flame in a enclosed area.Just needs a bit of common sense. All flames including candles will produce a element of danger by burning off the oxygen in a closed area. As For the cost £2.99 -£5.99 per litre,, 1Ltr lasted me over the weekend meet using the fire for both nights and through the days showing people how the fire worked and the heat it was capable of producing.View attachment 14593


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

I love the simplicity of Flyboy's heater, plus it's something I can make myself, to heat the van, without cutting any holes in it for a flue, air vent etc. My only source of heating is the gas canister cooking stove which many many folk have pointed out is dangerous as it produces carbon monoxide. Although I've been using it for 18 months, directly underneath my roof vent and it hasn't set off my carbon monoxide alarm (which does work as it flashes to show it''s working), I have taken the advice on board and would prefer an alternative heat source but with my finances being somewhat "precarious", any other form of fitted heating is simply out of the question for the foreseeable. 

So far, apart from the fuel, the cost of a stpve like Steve's has cost me the grand total of £3.98 for a metal mug and 2 metal pan scrubs - I already had a metal chiminea which I was going to sell at a car boot (and which incidentally only cost me a fiver in Woolworth's closing down sale a couple of years ago).

I will need to do the maths once I work out how much fuel a BE heater uses per hour but the camping gas stove which uses butane canisters will burn for about 2-3 hours per canister. I get the canisters for £1 each at B&M bargains. 

I will probably continue to use the gas cooker for heating complimented by a BE stove eg using the BE heater at night when the van is closed up, curtains drawn and the gas stove in the morning, whilst making coffee, when the risk of CO is less as I'll be opening the door to let the dog out. 

I haven't really got room for a butane gas bottle, even a small one, and I'd have to completely rethink my layout to fit a gas bottle and proper fixed heater, giving it enough safety space around it and keeping the dog and cat away from it. A small BE stove will stand on a metal baking tray on my table top, where it can't be knocked over by the dog, where my camping stove is, or it could stand on the metal sink drainer which covers my sink when sink is not in use. 

I'll post some photos when I test it and keep you posted of my progress and how it works out in terms of fuel. I'm thinking that as I have 2 pan scrubs, I can use one with BE for inside the van, and one with meths (cheaper) for outside the van.


----------



## Smaug (Jun 7, 2013)

Be aware that CO is produced by any open flame where it is not well ventilated, so the bio-ethanol stove is just as likely to kill you if starved of oxygen & ventilation. Very unlikely to be an issue if vented properly.


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

I have a parafin lamp at home which I've used during power cuts etc but it seems to be quite smokey which, apart from the CO risk, put me off using it in the van. Same with an oil lamp with citronella oil. They'd be ok to use for light with the van door open but I don't think they'd be much use as a heater.


----------



## Smaug (Jun 7, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I have a parafin lamp at home which I've used during power cuts etc but *it seems to be quite smokey *which, apart from the CO risk, put me off using it in the van. Same with an oil lamp with citronella oil. They'd be ok to use for light with the van door open but I don't think they'd be much use as a heater.



Trim the wick & make sure it isn't too long. 

Paraffin should not smoke & smoke is not an indicator of CO, but does indicate possible carcinogenic particles. :scared:

I use a paraffin lamp on the boat with lamp oil in it so there is no smell of paraffin. Smoking is easy to deal with by trimming the wick to follow the burner profile & remove any burnt edges to the wick


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Trim the wick & make sure it isn't too long.
> 
> Paraffin should not smoke & smoke is not an indicator of CO, but does indicate possible carcinogenic particles. :scared:
> 
> I use a paraffin lamp on the boat with lamp oil in it so there is no smell of paraffin. Smoking is easy to deal with by trimming the wick to follow the burner profile & remove any burnt edges to the wick



Thanks for that, I think I am going to be spending this weekend playing with fire :lol-053:  the new BE heater, and the parafin lamp and citronella oil lamps. 

idea:  Hmmm, now then, I wouldn't mind a visit by the boys in the big red van on sat evening, if I fire up the BBQ too, I might be able to persuade them to stay a bit longer once they've checked that I'm not about to set fire to the house or van :tongue: )


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 7, 2013)

That's my hands (deservedly) slapped for skim reading posts and not properly digesting the contents. Mine is the smokey cheap (probably Chinese) version, even I with my "it won't happen to me" attitude, wouldn't use it in my van, and only reluctantly in the house during power cuts because it's a Victorian house with high ceilings which need repainting anyway :hammer:


----------



## Smaug (Jun 7, 2013)

Here is a home made charcoal heater from a boaty forum. He uses an old spoon as a charcoal shovle to fuel it, and it has a chimney, part of which is made from a vacuum cleaner wand, to carry the fumes (& any CO if it isn't burning right). I reckon you could soak a couple of blocks of charcoal in Bio-ethanol to make it easy starting. 

This pic was taken while the boat was on its trailer, it is normally well fastened in at sea. But a mini-charcoal burner offers many advantages for a small van or boat.


----------



## vwalan (Jun 7, 2013)

i have a couple of vapalux lamps by willis and bates . give loads of light and some heat . we used them outside for evening drink ups at vw shows . hardly any smoke and brill light . also have a few parrafin stoves for heat . one we have is a beatrice no 33 we bought it for travelling around africa . made a nice cooker and a heater all in one . mind gas was cheap in many countries but a variety of cooking fuels is needed on a round africa triup.


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

Not A Problem young sir Try this link you will find it along with some fine photo of the week end.

(Any chance of a large hi-res image of your heater - the one you uploaded is rather small!  )[/QUOTE]
WildCamp Hardraw Meet


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

> I didn't mean to denigrate your heater in any way, Flyboy. I was really commenting on the high price of ethanol (in whatever form). Having had a Swedish Origo two burner hob in my small sailing yacht, many years ago, I know how much clean heat is produced by ethanol. And it is safer than gas.
> 
> But it seems that paraffin is very expensive in the UK, which probably simply reflects the lack of demand for it in the domestic environment.
> 
> (Any chance of a large hi-res image of your heater - the one you uploaded is rather small!  )



Not a problem young sir click link below some fine photos of the weekend aswell
WildCamp Hardraw Meet


----------



## n brown (Jun 7, 2013)

nice pics mate-rum looking bunch,wish i'd been there !


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 7, 2013)

n brown said:


> nice pics mate-rum looking bunch,wish i'd been there !



Not my work have just copyed a link from another post.


----------



## Firefox (Jun 8, 2013)

These heaters look really good. Simple, easy to make, and kind on emissions.

Buy £50 worth from a sensible supplier and it's £2 to 3 a litre. There are many real scam suppliers though, charging £5 or even £10 a litre. 

In an off grid camp, I wonder how easy or legal it would be to distill your own. Water, plants and wood are available from the forest. Spending a couple of months in summer distilling may yield a useful supply for winter for clean indoor burning.


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 8, 2013)

I think that off grid it would be easier to fit a chimney and just burn the wood

this is my fire currently on offer at a well know diy (.com ) supplier but usually only at the larger warehouse stores



the blurb says 
Elegant and easily portable, the Merida can be enjoyed indoors and outdoors. Affordable and large enough to take the chill off any room. No installation required and minimal maintenance. Flueless fire that requires no chimney, gas connection or electricity supply. Decorative focal point in any room or outdoor space.

They are not designed to be primary heaters but when your central heating oil runs out it does take the chill off as I found when we had our second winter in April and as it says easily portable so at the next meet will have to bring it along


----------



## mariesnowgoose (Jun 8, 2013)

n brown said:


> nice pics mate-rum looking bunch,wish i'd been there !



No bottles of rum on site as far as I'm aware, yer honour


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 8, 2013)

mariesnowgoose said:


> No bottles of rum on site as far as I'm aware, yer honour



yes there was, several


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 8, 2013)

Christmas pudding and a bottle of brandy ?

to be fair they are mainly advertised as decorative first and the heat output is a secondary benefit and having oil central heating I got mine to place on the hearth of a blocked up fireplace that was uneconomical to open up when its use would be minimal.


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 8, 2013)

I had been looking at electric fires but for the good ones with realistic flames the cost is in the hundreds


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 9, 2013)

If you burn the Bio fuel in a metal / cast iron container (gas bottle) as i have used with heat release holes in top of bottle see  the pictures this firstly starts to heat the room and secondly heats the container which stays hot and radiates heat into the room long after the flame has distinguished.  If you leave the heat release hole out it will just heat the container which then acts as a radiater. I do agree that these will not sufficiently heat a large room unless on constantly which then does become an expensive item to run.


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 9, 2013)

One rusty small chiminea rescued out of the "Car boot sale" box, one small stainless steel bowl, one steel pan scrub, an old baking tray, a rusty old fireguard which was going to go to my local scrappie, a can of black spray paint, some bio ethanol and a few hours over the weekend...

and... voila... I have a bio ethanol heater, currently taking the chill off my living room and which will be perfect in the van and safer than using the camping gas stove. 

Pictures here Bio Ethanol Heater Photos by whitevanwoman-photos | Photobucket

I've used the old fireguard to make a new tubular one, "sewn" together with wire, which fits over the chiminea stove, to prevent singed and burned dog tail, and have spray painted that as well as the chiminea. 

Am really pleased with the result. BIG thanks to Flyboy for his inventive idea, and to Outtolunch for dropping off some bio ethanol so that I've got some until I source a supply. I owe them both some beer :cheers:

I know it's not going to be as effective as a proper fitted heater but this has cost me only the price of the pan scrubs - everything is recycled or I already had, and it's safer than using gas as the fuel bowl will only hold about an hour's worth of fuel, so no chance of leaving it burning for hours and no carbon monoxide. There's enough draughts in my van to allow the CO2 to disperse harmlessly. 

In terms of running cost, a standard spirit measure (1/6 of a gill, whatever that is in metric) gives about half hour burning time. If anyone fancies doing the maths, the cheapest bio ethanol I've sourced online works out at approx £2.30 per litre if buying 20 litres.

In comparison, the camping gas stove will burn for approx 2.5 hours on one gas canister at a cost of £1.


----------



## Robmac (Jun 9, 2013)

Excellent job jess. There are about 8ish Gills in a litre which would mean 48 x 1/2 hour per litre if I'm working it out correctly. To me that seems very economical!

Maths aint my strong subject though!


----------



## herbenny (Jun 9, 2013)

well done Jess...your so arty and crafty I wish I was creative as you ....that looks great a really nice feature and hopefully it will heat the van up nicely 
Good Job x


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 10, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> One rusty small chiminea rescued out of the "Car boot sale" box, one small stainless steel bowl, one steel pan scrub, an old baking tray, a rusty old fireguard which was going to go to my local scrappie, a can of black spray paint, some bio ethanol and a few hours over the weekend...
> 
> and... voila... I have a bio ethanol heater, currently taking the chill off my living room and which will be perfect in the van and safer than using the camping gas stove.
> 
> ...



Nice One Looks  brill if you can get the wick sometime instead of the pan scrub it will burn more effectively and absorb the fuel try ebay shop  socks&more but look around your find it cheaper cut the wick to the size of the cup (width not the depth of the cup ) don't overfill the cup if using the correct wick  fill to the depth of wick about 2ins let it soak the up the fuel  experiment with the amount of fuel you use to get the flame size right for your fire and don't compress the wick when putting it in. Need any Help let Me Know.


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

Flyboy, could you send me an ebay link to the right stuff, I can't find the seller you mentioned.


----------



## Marcs (Jun 10, 2013)

It looks really good, and I bet it gives off great heat. Is it fixed within the van and if not what happens should you need to make a sharp exit? You've probably got this covered but thought it was worth mentioning incase you haven't.


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 10, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> Flyboy, could you send me an ebay link to the right stuff, I can't find the seller you mentioned.


 Try this .

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/socks-more


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 10, 2013)

Marcs said:


> It looks really good, and I bet it gives off great heat. Is it fixed within the van and if not what happens should you need to make a sharp exit? You've probably got this covered but thought it was worth mentioning incase you haven't.



Hi yes i can clamp it down if need be No is not fixed into the van  so i can store it when not in use


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 10, 2013)

When testing mine last night, it doesn't give off huge heat in the house, but hopefully it will be better with the fibre glass wick. Without the lid on the top of the chiminea, the heat rises straight up so would need to be as low as possible, on the floor, which is why I've made a fireguard for it, and this also makes it more stable and less likely to fall if knocked. With the lid on, the whole chiminea heats up and it keeps that heat for a good hour after going on, again not huge heat but enough to keep a background chill off, and it makes a great foot warmer or even hot water bottle. With the lid on, the heat tends to be released more slowly, like a radiator, from the body of the chiminea, and so it can stand safely on the metal sink drainer, or even in the sink, which is probably the safest place for it. 

In the event of it being knocked over, the main risk is spillage of the burning fuel but as the amount in my bowl is small, this is minimal, and I have a fire blanket and extinguisher within easy reach, and I also have a wool blanket on my bed which makes a reasonable fire blanket as wool smoulders rather than burns and so it would contain any flames for a few seconds allowing time to stamp it out or reach for fire blanket. The chiminea is also stood on a baking tray which again would contain any burning fuel. It's not without risk but I've considered the risks and taken what I feel are appropriate safety measures in my circumstances. 

I foresee myself using it for an hour or 2 in the evenings when the van is already warmed up from driving or cooking, to maintain the heat and stop the temp dropping too quickly. Also, first thing in the morning, it's quick and easy to light and then jump back into bed whilst the kettle is boiling on the gas cooker. That means that by the time the kettle is boiling, with 2 heat sources going, getting out of bed should be bearable on cold mornings. 

Mine will be stowed away during travel (I shall have to make a storage space somewhere for it), and as it doesn't need to be stowed upright, it could fit into an otherwise unused space. 

Really pleased to have given another lease of life to the chiminea, I always liked it but never really used it as it was too small for a fire and if used with a candle, it didn't give off much light. So it's just sat in the yard and rusted for a couple of years, and I was going to sell it at a car boot sale. And I really like the simplicity of the idea, and the fact that the fuel is environmentally friendly (compared to other fuels). I'm sure that BE will become easier to find over the next year or so as there are alot of BE house heaters now available. 

Certainly it isn't as heat effective as a proper fitted heater, but for what it's cost me to produce and install, I can use alot of BE fuel before it starts to cost me more than fitting a heater would have cost. It may not be a permanent feature in my van (I'm still hankering after a small wood burner but £££, fitting and space in the van are issues which would need resolving to go down this route) but for the moment and the foreseeable future, this solves a problem for me.


----------



## Smaug (Jun 11, 2013)

WVW

Why not just use charcoal in the chimnea? It will burn much hotter & be a lot cheaper with probably no more fumes if it gets plemty of air in to it. You could even set up a chimney to go out of teh window using a stainless flexi exhaust pipe - which could even be insulated.


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 11, 2013)

Smaug said:


> WVW
> 
> Why not just use charcoal in the chimnea? It will burn much hotter & be a lot cheaper with probably no more fumes if it gets plemty of air in to it. You could even set up a chimney to go out of teh window using a stainless flexi exhaust pipe - which could even be insulated.



:scared: Are you seriously suggesting I use a charcoal heater in the van?!!!!  You obviously haven't crossed swords with Aladdinsane on that subject.

If I had the time and money it might be worth investigating your idea but as I've no windows in the back of the van, I'd have to go through the front passenger window, which would have to be open, therefore letting in wind and rain, and I'd lose my curtain blackout and stealth capacity. Perhaps an idea for a meet or festival but in all honesty in those cases, I'd probably be sitting outside around a real fire or bbq. And I think what I'd gain in heat, I'd lose a considerable amount through the open window and by not being able to pull the insulated blackout curtain between the cab and the back fully across, which makes a huge difference to maintaining heat in the van. 

And for the moment I have a portable heater which meets my needs, although when full timing I will have to look at a more effective option, probably a wood burner when finances allow. 

Actually, looking at the chiminea, the bottom of the hole on the side is very low, only about 1cm above the base of the chiminea and so charcoal would fall out easily. I'd need to make some sort of containing removable rounded metal barrier to keep the charcoal in which would then make it too difficult to add more charcoal. It is only a small chiminea about 14" high, the height of the bowl is only 6", diameter of top of chimney is less than 2". 

Keep the ideas coming though as it's always worth mulling them over, but on this occasion the idea's not really practical.


----------



## Smaug (Jun 11, 2013)

Just bear in mind that BE is as dangerous as charcoal in terms of the risk of CO poisoning if it can't burn well due to oxygen depletion. I know there have been several deaths due to charcaol barbies brought into tents as a heater, but I'll bet they were all closed up "for safety" from burning without considering the hugely increased risk of CO poisoning.


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 11, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Just bear in mind that BE is as dangerous as charcoal in terms of the risk of CO poisoning if it can't burn well due to oxygen depletion. I know there have been several deaths due to charcaol barbies brought into tents as a heater, but I'll bet they were all closed up "for safety" from burning without considering the hugely increased risk of CO poisoning.



But they were carbon monoxide related deaths, as opposed to carbon dioxide. And that's exactly why I prefer a BE heater as the risk of CO2 is much less than CO plus CO2 , as produced by a gas heater. BE doesn't produce carbon monoxide, only carbon dioxide and water vapour. 

As I said in an earlier post, the fuel bowl only contains sufficient fuel to burn for about an hour. Having had me, the dog, the cat, a gas cooker and a couple of candles and a cigarette all generating carbon dioxide in the van for a couple of hours at a time, without any of us expiring, I think the risk of carbon dioxide is minimal. Plus as I've said repeatedly, I have a roof vent which is permanently open. And surely, if the bio ethanol heater was churning out so much carbon dioxide that there was a risk of suffocation, the flame in the burner would go out as there wouldn't be enough oxygen in the atmosphere to keep it burning. 

And quite honestly I don't want the mess of charcoal, ash etc.  And anyway, it's done now. Sorted.


----------



## outtolunch (Jun 11, 2013)

Charcoal produces a lot of carbon monoxide even with good ventilation because as it burns away the combustion air required to get a complete conversion to carbon dioxide can not get to the centre of the charcoal pieces and a falling temperature  helps to compound this.

bio ethanol on the other  hand is initially burning in its vapour phase but this changes quickly as the alcohol heats up to its gaseous phase which will give a more complete combustion. I don't know if any CO is produced in small amounts, if you want accurate figures I can get the flue gas analyser out of the van and light the fire but a  domestic CO alarm sat on the mantle above (before it moved to the camper )  gave no reading on its display.


----------



## Tbear (Jun 11, 2013)

Much as I like Flyboys idea I cannot help but wonder if you have enough ventilation to make it safe, then you will loose much of the heat. On the other hand, as David said, the sight of the flames makes you feel warmer. I think the cast iron chimnea/radiator sounds a smashing idea. Someone else in another thread sugested an upturned flowerpot on the gas stove (not the plastic ones) to be used in a similar manner.

I'm going to stick with a nice warm down sleeping bag or quilt. Please be safe. 

David,

Hot CO2 or Smoke rises

Richard


----------



## Flyboy (Jun 24, 2013)

*Comments,Idea's  Welcome.*

Hi everybody see what you think about this fire i am working on its half a 7kg gas bottle with a piece of 1/4in metal plate welded on the back.

I will be setting onto ceramic tiles attached to some cement board (fire board )  on a 2" frame which will be packed with fireproofing 
Not sure if i should put an air gap between the fire and the wall panel has this is the side of the fridge.

Comments Welcome.View attachment 15034View attachment 15035View attachment 15036


----------



## herbenny (Jun 24, 2013)

I WANT ONE AND YOUR KETTLE :raofl:


----------



## herbenny (Jun 24, 2013)

Steve seriously that looks brilliant and really effective ......how clever !!!


----------



## whitevanwoman (Jun 24, 2013)

[No message]


----------



## herbenny (Jun 24, 2013)

Jess we will be in the same boat .....I need heating I really do ever since my lymes disease episode I feel the cold, well I always have but more so in recent months .....in fact my bones ache so much I am lying here in bed with central heating on my fingers and hands have seized up, the attack of the monstrous rock and roll bed has played a small part though I suspect !!

Anyway like I was saying..no we wont be able to fund any heating in this van and will have to look for alternatives.  I would seriously think of using Steve's heating  method. It looks safe enough to me.  and certainly knows what he is doing.


----------



## Tow Itch (Jun 24, 2013)

Dear WVW

 With respect to 





> This post is going to be the last ever time I post about Carbon Monoxide inside my van on this forum, even if all the trolls in the world come out and provoke me for an argument.



 I've no desire to be a troll, but....

 I've managed to get a CO alarm to go off twice: One with a humongous Campingaz lantern about 7 inch glass diameter in a camper. I should have seen that coming an example of technology saving the egit.The other occasions were on a weekend when I was using the underfloor room sealed heater. The wind was such that the entire camper rocked and the walls and roof had a serious wind blowing through them. Even if I'd flued the heater into the room there were that many air changes that I fail to see how a buildup of CO could have occurred. To be honest I should have just switched the alarm off I was desperate for any aid to sleep that weekend.     

 WVW if you do know of low level chronic CO poisoning then I apologise but you are in a minority. CO poisoning isn't just about waking up dead. Lack of understanding sees people go from avoiding a definite risk or more aptly danger to fretting about lighting a match. I would suggest because no organisation is brave enough to inject a scale of risk and the factors that add to those risks. I've quoted them before these are my to favourite pieces on the dangers of CO please read and offer your comment: FAQ - Technical Details on Stoves Zen Backpacking Stoves - Carbon Monoxide Hazards

 If you read through all of that try this as treat to play with for cooking with alcohol: Zen and the Art of the Alcohol Stove


----------

