# PSPO's



## chrismilo (Sep 21, 2017)

Had one of these notices thrust in my hand this morning. 
I said what am I if not a member of the public ?
Having been born and bred in Brighton and pay council tax which I told them fell on deaf ears
So I had the right to park here
They said nowhere in England are you allowed to overnight in vehicles 
I said definition of over nighting is 23.45 to 00.15 didn't go do too well
I do overnight there occasionally but mostly like today go to walk the dog and tinker with the van
There are NO signs in any of the places mentioned that say no camping or overnighting 
One then went on to say he'd seen me at Devil's Dyke so I said it's got bugger all to do with you
Devil's Dyke although considered part of Brighton is in West Sussex and comes under Crawley borough council they don't like it if you know more than your supposed too
If it had happened anywhere else I wouldn't have blown up but I thought I'd give them my tuppence worth
There are alot of posters appearing around the town saying STOP the PSPO's
There are currently between 20 and 30 fulltimers around Brighton plus the tourist vans which I notice are left alone
The notice is probably not worth the paper it's printed on as there's no TRO numbers on it
  if one can't  afford to live in a flat or house how do they think they will get £75 from you ?


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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

chrismilo said:


> Had one of these notices thrust in my hand this morning.
> I said what am I if not a member of the public ?
> Having been born and bred in Brighton and pay council tax which I told them fell on deaf ears
> So I had the right to park here
> ...


 My understanding is they don't need a TRO nor does there need to be a by law. This order deals with a nuisance or problem in a public area. The order applies to everyone in that area, for example no dogs, no alcohol. Which would mean the fulltimers you speak of will equally be affected. In effect PSPO qhich replaced the old ASBOs is a streamlined process, so for example no lengthy court process for evictions 

Channa


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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

Because in effect it is a court order one thing the court can do is add the power of arrest. Even though the complainant is a civil body 

Channa


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## chrismilo (Sep 21, 2017)

So it seems sleeping or being quiet in you campervan is ANTI social behavior? 
So are the prisons going to be full of wildcampers who can't/ won't  pay there £75 fine on top of road tax and all the other taxes ?


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## malagaoth (Sep 21, 2017)

> They said nowhere in England are you allowed to overnight in vehicles



that is simply untrue, there are several council car parks in Devon which allow it (Westward oh! comes to mind) Also Skipton and Helmsley.

You will also find lorry drivers parked up and sleeping in almost every large layby in the country - I very much doubt that they get a nightly ticket.  Nor would be unusual to find twin axle caravans towed by commercial vehicles (you know who I mean!) in a carpark or layby.

My view however is that if somewhere doesnt want me and my money then fine I will go somewhere that does - there are plenty of such places


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## trevskoda (Sep 21, 2017)

You should have handed it back saying this is not my van im here with a chap i meet and he is away walking his dog,then shut the door, they would soon get fed up when no one returned.
Dont ever give your name or address to anyone other that a coper.


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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

chrismilo said:


> So it seems sleeping or being quiet in you campervan is ANTI social behavior?
> So are the prisons going to be full of wildcampers who can't/ won't  pay there £75 fine on top of road tax and all the other taxes ?



Another dgood example of legal powers being abused, or used for a situation that is not really in context of the original spirt, As I have said on numerous occasions the law is as it is not necessary how we would like it to be. Morality plays little part.

Warrant for arrest has always been an available remedy for non payment of fines and custodial sentences are a possibility. Power of arrest in this context is different it could be used for those that breach the PSPO,

Channa


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## runnach (Sep 21, 2017)

trevskoda said:


> You should have handed it back saying this is not my van im here with a chap i meet and he is away walking his dog,then shut the door, they would soon get fed up when no one returned.
> Dont ever give your name or address to anyone other that a coper.



No idea re Northern Ireland Trev, but certainly on the mainland refusing to give name and address to officials is a criminal offence. good example dog wardens is a common one or the folk wandering about working for the council ( or on behalf of) fining people for allegedly dropping litter.

Channa


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## malagaoth (Sep 22, 2017)

> Not sure if it is true as all officials we have ever had run ins with always quote the same , that it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle



according to the Torridge council website overnight motorhome parking is allowed in the following car parks
•Riverbank (long stay) Car Park, Bideford. EX39 2QS
•Churchfields Car Park, Appledore, EX39 1RL
•Westward Ho! (Main) Car Park, EX39 1LG
•The Manor Car Park, Holsworthy, EX22 6DJ
•Sydney House Car Park, Torrington, EX38 8AA
 Please note that motor homes should be parked with a distance of 6 meters between vehicles, if two parking spaces are used due to the lenght of your vehicle you will need to pay for two parking spaces.

Torridge District Council

this page also contains a link to other "Motorhome stop overs in England and Ireland"

OK it doesnt expressly say you can sleep in the vehicle but it does every thing but say it


and the Canterbury Park and ride car park not only allows overnight parking (and sleeping) they have water, and facilities for black and grey waste as does the carpark in Lytham St Annes




> You should have handed it back saying this is not my van im here with a chap i meet and he is away walking his dog,then shut the door, they would soon get fed up when no one returned



In which case the ticket would be sent to the registered keeper who would then have to show in court that he wasnt driving AND give the name of who was driving.

and yes even in NI failing to provide name and address to a police officer is an arrestable offence.


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## malagaoth (Sep 22, 2017)

Ooops my bad - I misread Trevskoda.
so to clear up
although the police have the power to arrest you for not giving your name if they suspect you of an offence (s24 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984) OR if If you are the driver of any vehicle including a bike (Road Traffic Act 1988 s163-168). PCSOs - which we dont have in NI  - have wider powers when it comes to getting your name and address (schedule 4 Police Reform Act 2002).

Others such as dog wardens etc have other powers - but in essence they have to call for police /PCSO back up they may 'detain you' for up to 30 minutes until they arrive -  but if its a vehicle related offence they will just send the ticket to the registered keeper as he is liable unless he tells the court who is liable - its an exception to the presumption of innocence rule


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## trevskoda (Sep 22, 2017)

channa said:


> No idea re Northern Ireland Trev, but certainly on the mainland refusing to give name and address to officials is a criminal offence. good example dog wardens is a common one or the folk wandering about working for the council ( or on behalf of) fining people for allegedly dropping litter.
> 
> Channa



A well heeled chap i know was stopped by wardens when his dog dropped one,he refused to give details and due to his car sitting in c/park walked 4 miles along belfast to carrick foreshore over rocky parts to back shore door to  his home,the wardens gave up to which the chap nipped in home getting his son to retrieve  his car later that night,this man is  super rich and could have well paid up.


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## runnach (Sep 22, 2017)

I think a lot of people Trev have become disillusioned with the system and more and more are seeing abuses. 

A lot of alleged offences only the well heeled can afford representation as access to legal aid is seriously diminished, (generally any alleged offence that doesn't normally result in a custodial sentence)

Over the years a lot of police powers have been re allocated to other parties, eg a lot of traffic enforcement  parking offences , speeding offences given to councils in the case of speeding tickets landing on peoples doormats no caution under PACE deemed in the public interest.

So we have HSE, VOSA , Environment Agency Councils, DWP, HMRC et al all able to take people to court. A lot of these agencies contracting out to private companies with less than ethical standards, It has all become a bit of a mess IMO.

In Chrismilos case, it is very difficult for all those affected to bring about a collective defence the law doesn't allow it, Each individual having to represent themselves.

Channa


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## Private (Sep 22, 2017)

*Challenge*



channa said:


> I think a lot of people Trev have become disillusioned with the system and more and more are seeing abuses.
> 
> A lot of alleged offences only the well heeled can afford representation as access to legal aid is seriously diminished, (generally any alleged offence that doesn't normally result in a custodial sentence)
> 
> ...



This is why we must challenge the authorities at every opportunity. They are running out of control. Only our challenges will slow them down and force them to justify what their are doing and why they are doing it.
Most police officers don't know the law but use it the way they want to and the way we think they are legally allowed to.
They do not have nearly as many powers as we or they think they have but they get away with abusing us through our acceptance of their authority.
This acceptance is now leaching down from the police to the councils and other minor authorities.
Just because a rule or law is made does not mean we should accept and obey it; there has to be justification for the rule or law to be in place and this should be only to prevent harm or abuse of others.
It should never be just because they don't like something or other happening. E.g. People getting a beautiful view of the sea for a few days without paying for it.


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## sasquatch (Sep 22, 2017)

A bit like a nut cracking sledgehammer,probably introduced for the Travellers,but hat doesn't work-does it?


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## Robmac (Sep 22, 2017)

hairydog said:


> There IS no difference.
> 
> I challenge anyone to find a meaningful distinction between a 'full-timer' in a motorhome and a 'traveller' in a motorhome. Other than racist prejudice, that is.
> 
> ...



What utter rubbish!

I bet you can't wait in the morning when you get up to accuse somebody of being a racist!


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## Robmac (Sep 22, 2017)

hairydog said:


> OK, clever clogs, explain to me what the difference is. If my comment is utter rubbish, you shouldn't find it hard to do.



So if I call somebody an immigrant rather than an ex-pat, I am being racially prejudiced??

It's people like you who bandy the word 'racist' about all the time who take away the true meaning of the word. And you seem to love to scatter the words 'prejudiced', 'racist' and 'bigot' about when there is absolutely no call for it.

It is a very serious accusation, and to be truly racist usually carries a jail sentence. Enough said!


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## alcam (Sep 22, 2017)

Robmac said:


> So if I call somebody an immigrant rather than an ex-pat, I am being racially prejudiced??
> 
> It's people like you who bandy the word 'racist' about all the time who take away the true meaning of the word. And you seem to love to scatter the words 'prejudiced', 'racist' and 'bigot' about when there is absolutely no call for it.
> 
> It is a very serious accusation, and to be truly racist usually carries a jail sentence. Enough said!



One mans immigrant is another mans ex-pat . I don't think its racist to use either term but in certain contexts it displays a bias . Bias is different from predujice . In my personal dictionary anyway , The one wot i wrote masel


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## Robmac (Sep 22, 2017)

alcam said:


> One mans immigrant is another mans ex-pat . I don't think its racist to use either term but in certain contexts it displays a bias . Bias is different from predujice . In my personal dictionary anyway , The one wot i wrote masel



I agree. 

My point is that the words are used so unnecessarily so often these days.

But I can't be bothered to argue the toss, I'm off out in the van for a few days.


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## runnach (Sep 22, 2017)

Robmac said:


> I agree.
> 
> My point is that the words are used so unnecessarily so often these days.
> 
> But I can't be bothered to argue the toss, I'm off out in the van for a few days.



I find in a lot of instances those quick to label have minimal experience of the people who they label.

Charlie is right, to Joe Public wild camping or parked campers the" eyesore" and prejudice results in the brush tarring all.

Travellers are often discriminating amongst themselves, Quickest way to upset a showman is tell him he is a gypsy !!! ...If you live to tell the tale, English Roma are not particularly fond of the Irish lot. On my days with the travelling fairs worked for showman an some were of Gypsy stock, it took at least a generation to be accepted as one of their own.! As on the "gaff" showmen didn't see me as a traveller and the settled community didn't see me as part of the settled community so I had no identity !! Yet I lived FT in the motorhome..Barred from pubs one minute because of my work running one the next !!,,all gets very silly On a more serious note the New age travellers suffered the same fate and it is only the amendment to the Race act that they have been given their own identity.

A lot of it is culture and tradition I briefly travelled with a gitane circus and that was really interesting, I knew I was different but a marvellous glimpse into another world.

Recent years, Alfie Best, (Wyldecrest Parks) Stan and Nick Laing (Glossop Caravans) James Hill ( Hill Brothers) Knowles Family the list is endless all travelling stock, run successful business and worth a few bob, Doncaster Mayor Eddie Todd travelling stock ..You would be amazed how much contact we have without realising it. 

Channa


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## maureenandtom (Sep 22, 2017)

chrismilo said:


> Had one of these notices thrust in my hand this morning.
> I said what am I if not a member of the public ?
> Having been born and bred in Brighton and pay council tax which I told them fell on deaf ears
> So I had the right to park here
> ...



Time for a remedy.   A peaceful mass protest?   Has worked in the past.

But ... you notice the tourist vans are left alone?   In the places named in the order?


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## maureenandtom (Sep 22, 2017)

Is the order prominently displayed?    Taped to a tree or a lampost perhaps?

These people seem to have obtained an eviction order?   Or did they?    Did the council go straight to an eviction order or did it first depend on people obeying the PSPO?    If it depended on obedience to the order it seems to me that you have 12 hours before a Fixed Penalty Notice can be issued?   

Public Space Protection Orders | Brighton & Hove City Council

_Any person on request by an authorised officer, police officer or PCSO shall:

    remove any vehicle, caravan, tent or other structure within 12 hours
    disposing of items as directed
    permit a council, police or fire officer to extinguish a fire
    provide a name, address and date of birth when required to do so by a council or police officer_

It seems there is some public disquiet about the use of PSPOs.

PSPOs: the new control orders threatening our public spaces | Cities | The Guardian

But any disquiet will die away if councils find they can get away with it and PSPOs become routine.

EDIT  Would a court issue an eviction notice before any FPNs had been issued?   Would a court not need to know that the PSPO had been defied?




file image uploader


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## runnach (Sep 22, 2017)

maureenandtom said:


> EDIT  Would a court issue an eviction notice before any FPNs had been issued?   Would a court not need to know that the PSPO had been defied?


 In the OPs case it is difficult to argue, the letter hand delivered will have been recorded by bodycam and more than 12 hours has elapsed

I agree it is a fast track eviction notice.

I note with interest the letter was signed and a contact offered of a traveller Liason Officer...Here is the Million dollar question, The local councils have a legal obligation to make facilities for the travelling folk perhaps the question needs raising how the same council are going to fulfil that legal accommodation ?

Channa


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## bobj808 (Sep 22, 2017)

Seems like a stock process used to evict Travellers from illegal encampments which has now been extended to everyone. If you can't sleep in your vehicle overnight, they could make a fortune on the A1 doing huge numbers of lorries in the laybys. Police in England, according to a Chief Constable this morning, are stretched to breaking point but always have the resources to go after anything with a number plate.


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## Private (Sep 22, 2017)

*They will*



bobj808 said:


> Seems like a stock process used to evict Travellers from illegal encampments which has now been extended to everyone. If you can't sleep in your vehicle overnight, they could make a fortune on the A1 doing huge numbers of lorries in the laybys. Police in England, according to a Chief Constable this morning, are stretched to breaking point but always have the resources to go after anything with a number plate.



They will do just that; particularly if the layby is near a fee charging service area.  
I witnessed the moronic police ticketing a row of trucks parked up on a very well lit industrial estate as they did not have their lights on at night. He put all the tickets on in one go (pre filled in) at around 3 am.

That is the main reason I have LEDs in all four corner lights of my motorhome that run off the leisure batteries. We require lights on at night too when parked on the road.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 22, 2017)

Brighton and Hove council, says it all.  When we went to a funeral down there we rang the council as we wanted to go down in the mh and park nearby but the nearest car parks weren't suitable, the best, reluctantly they came up with was approx 20 mile away, stating rather sharpish we would get a ticket if we parked in  the local ones.  Ended up stopping 10 miles away outside a mates and getting a lift in. Maybe if we'd had more time to look around we might have found somewhere.


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## Private (Sep 22, 2017)

*Likes and needs*



Chainsaw Charlie said:


> The funny thing is Jo public doesn't see any difference between a traveler or a tourist, they both have ugly great vans that block their view or take up what they see as their parking spaces.
> Always makes me laugh when there is a complaint about someone parking a motorhome in a residential area, on all the forums they all shout that they are envious or jealous ?
> Truth is most people don't want an ugly caravan or motorhome stuck outside their house which I totally understand as neither would I.



That is exactly the problem. 
I personally don't like white, emlem splashed motorhomes so I chose not to buy one, but I can't expect a law to be passed that bans them.
Just because we don't like something is not a reason to encourage laws or rules to satisfy our particular likes or dislikes as there are then no limits.
For example:
I would adhere to a law that banned peanuts from aeroplanes; as it would be there to prevent the risk of harming somebody with a nut allergy. 
I would not adhere to a law that banned pork from aeroplanes just because it does not agree with somebody's religious morals. 

If somebody parks a motorhome that I don't like outside my house then it is my tough luck.
If they are quiet and respectful of the environment then I should not have a say on whether they move on or not. 
If they are noisy and leaving rubbish in the street then I should have the right to have those particular issues corrected by that particular person or persons. 
There should be no sledgehammer, just a nutcracker.

We need more tolerance, not less.
You can't satisfy all of the people any of the time.


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## maureenandtom (Sep 22, 2017)

There are adequate remedies for anti-social behaviour.    It is no solution to anti-social behaviour to simply introduce additional offences.  Punishing the innocent to catch the guilty has always been a rubbish solution;  an act of weak, ineffective individuals failing to address the real issues.   There is a cost in administering the PSPOs - the money would be better spent enforcing existing laws or, even better, permitting parking in selected places - aires.


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## wildebus (Sep 23, 2017)

yorkieowl said:


> Brighton and Hove council, says it all.  When we went to a funeral down there we rang the council as we wanted to go down in the mh and park nearby but the nearest car parks weren't suitable, the best, reluctantly they came up with was approx 20 mile away, stating rather sharpish we would get a ticket if we parked in  the local ones.  Ended up stopping 10 miles away outside a mates and getting a lift in. Maybe if we'd had more time to look around we might have found somewhere.


Just to clarify, was this when you wanted to stay overnight, or literally just park for a time?
B&H attitude seems to be pretty extreme, but wondering if it is extreme to the point of insanity?!


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## alcam (Sep 23, 2017)

Private said:


> They will do just that; particularly if the layby is near a fee charging service area.
> I witnessed the moronic police ticketing a row of trucks parked up on a very well lit industrial estate as they did not have their lights on at night. He put all the tickets on in one go (pre filled in) at around 3 am.
> 
> That is the main reason I have LEDs in all four corner lights of my motorhome that run off the leisure batteries. We require lights on at night too when parked on the road.



Motorhomes have to have lights on when they are parked on a road ? First I've heard of this


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## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 23, 2017)

Here you go

You must not park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space. All vehicles must display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).

Waiting and parking - Parking at night (248 to 252) - The Highway Code

The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989

Alf





alcam said:


> Motorhomes have to have lights on when they are parked on a road ? First I've heard of this


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## alcam (Sep 23, 2017)

Alf said:


> Here you go
> 
> You must not park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space. All vehicles must display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
> 
> ...



Does anybody obey this ? I would have to leave my side lights on .
I did actually get done for parking in a town facing against the direction of traffic flow many years ago . I had always thought it was a local by-law . Local police and I were not best friends they actually came to my door at 3am to charge me


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## suneye (Sep 23, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Utterly wrong.
> 
> There is no law against being racist. There never has been.
> 
> ...



The equality act 2010!


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## yorkieowl (Sep 23, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Just to clarify, was this when you wanted to stay overnight, or literally just park for a time?
> B&H attitude seems to be pretty extreme, but wondering if it is extreme to the point of insanity?!



We literally wanted to just park for the funeral, a couple of hours at most, but they were having non of it. They were quite rude tbh.


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## alcam (Sep 23, 2017)

Alf said:


> Here you go
> 
> You must not park on a road at night facing against the direction of the traffic flow unless in a recognised parking space. All vehicles must display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
> 
> ...



First link seems quite clear . Second link far too d2 for my [out last night] brain .
Pretty sure I have parked in these circumstances without lights . Daresay it may be unusual to get done for this . Could you leave your external habitation door on ? What do others do ?


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## wildebus (Sep 23, 2017)

yorkieowl said:


> We literally wanted to just park for the funeral, a couple of hours at most, but they were having non of it. They were quite rude tbh.



!!  So Brighton is a total no-go area for anyone who wants to just visit the town and drives a Motorhome or Campervan (i.e. a "Motor Caravan" for those members who like to be super-specific)? 
That is unreal.


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## Shockingdog (Sep 23, 2017)

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> Not sure if it is true as all officials we have ever had run ins with always quote the same , that it is illegal to sleep in a vehicle.
> This was even said in an official council meeting as they wanted the police to enforce it ?
> We have had it in the Forest of Dean , Cornwall and Sussex.
> It would be funny being taken to court for it though :raofl:



I may be wrong but as I understand the English law. There is no legal definition of sleep.Maybe some legal begal 
on here can enlighten us ?If this is true that will scotch all the moaning minnys.


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## Private (Sep 23, 2017)

*Lights*



alcam said:


> First link seems quite clear . Second link far too d2 for my [out last night] brain .
> Pretty sure I have parked in these circumstances without lights . Daresay it may be unusual to get done for this . Could you leave your external habitation door on ? What do others do ?



Every night you will see commercial vans parked on streets without lights. 
I've never known anyone be charged for not having lights showing on a van when parked on a road subject to a 30 MPH or less speed limit. 
I have known people be charged for parking cars without lights showing on roads subject to 40 MPH & above speed limits.

I always use my lights when wilding on the street but only because it is a motorhome. 
We know how petty people can be over motorhome parking so I remove the oportunity for them to make a complaint & have the police ticket me for an offence to satisfy a complainant.

As I remember it, the vehicle only needs to be showing red light to the rear & white light to the front on its offside to satisfy the requirements. Prior to installing my LED setup I used to attach magnetic bike lights on the vehicle to keep it legal.

If your (offside) habitation door outside light can be made to show white light to the front & red to the rear as far as I know it will suffice. 
It's worth a check regarding height & distances from front and rear end of the vehicle though before modifying anything. 
If you show white light to the rear you will be committing a different offence. 

When I used to wild in my caravan I once had the police turn up within minutes of me parking on a street, in the daytime, after a nearby resident complained. The upshot was I was committing no offence so they could not move me on. If the resident is of the right stature the police will always attend. If you are committing no offences they have no choice but to leave you alone.

(There may be more to the lighting regulations than the above suggests. See below).


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## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 23, 2017)

The law actually requires a number plate light lit as well see ulink to the RVLR 1989. 
So if you annoy anyone a bright PC Plod will have you.

https://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forum...tion.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/24/made

Alf






Private said:


> Every night you will see commercial vans parked on streets without lights.
> I've never known anyone be charged for not having lights showing on a van when parked on a road subject to a 30 MPH or less speed limit.
> I have known people be charged for parking cars without lights showing on roads subject to 40 MPH & above speed limits.
> 
> ...


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## Private (Sep 23, 2017)

*Ouch*



Alf said:


> The law actually requires a number plate light lit as well see ulink to the RVLR 1989.
> So if you annoy anyone a bright PC Plod will have you.
> 
> https://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forum...tion.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/regulation/24/made
> ...



Good job most of the plods are on this level...
"_Cars, goods vehicles not exceeding 2500 kg unladen weight, invalid carriages, motorcycles and pedal cycles may be parked without lights on a road (or lay-by) with a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) or less if they are....."_

Surely the weight reference is wrong?

Source:
Q386: What are the rules for parking a car at night?

Looks like I've got an extra light to install then.
Athough I illuminate all my corner lights I was under the impression that wasn't necesarry.

I will study further when at home. 
Thanks.


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## yorkieowl (Sep 23, 2017)

wildebus said:


> !!  So Brighton is a total no-go area for anyone who wants to just visit the town and drives a Motorhome or Campervan (i.e. a "Motor Caravan" for those members who like to be super-specific)?
> That is unreal.



It wasn't in Brighton, but the place was under Brighton/Hove council.  I don't know how bad it is in Brighton, and as stated previously if we had chance to google the area properly we might not have had the same problem. Think Annie is down that way at present so she may be able to enlighten anyone who wants to visit the area.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Sep 23, 2017)

(5) Paragraphs (1), (2), (3) and (4) shall not apply in respect of a vehicle of a class specified in paragraph (7) which is parked on a road on which a speed limit of 30 mph or less is in force and the vehicle is parked–

(a)in a parking place for which provision is made under section 6, or which is authorised under section 32 or designated under section 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, or which is set apart as a parking place under some other enactment or instrument and the vehicle is parked in a manner which does not contravene the provision of any enactment or instrument relating to the parking place; or
(b)in a lay-by–
(i)the limits of which are indicated by a traffic sign consisting of the road marking shown in diagram 1010 in Schedule 2 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 1981(1); or
(ii)the surface of which is of a colour or texture which is different from that of the part of the carriageway of the road used primarily by through traffic; or
(iii)the limits of which are indicated by a continuous strip of surface of a different colour or texture from that of the surface of the remainder of the carriageway of the road; or
(c)elsewhere than in such a parking place or lay-by if–
(i)the vehicle is parked in one of the circumstances described in paragraph (8); and
(ii)no part of the vehicle is less than 10 m from the junction of any part of the carriageway of any road with the carriageway of the road on which it is parked whether that junction is on the same side of the road as that on which the vehicle is parked or not.
(6) Sub-paragraph (5)(c)(ii) shall be construed in accordance with the diagram in Schedule 22.

(7) The classes of vehicle referred to in paragraph (5) are–

(a)a motor vehicle being a goods vehicle the unladen weight of which does not exceed 1525 kg;
(b)a passenger vehicle other than a bus;
(c)an invalid carriage; and
(d)a motor cycle or a pedal cycle in either case with or without a sidecar;
not being–

(i)a vehicle to which a trailer is attached;
(ii)a vehicle which is required to be fitted with lamps by regulation 21; or
(iii)a vehicle carrying a load, if the load is required to be fitted with lamps by regulation 21.

Just fit a led over the number plate ( not wired up ). Yes officer I noted it had failed when I checked my lights tonight I will replace it when we get home

Alf




Private said:


> Good job most of the plods are on this level...
> "_Cars, goods vehicles not exceeding 2500 kg unladen weight, invalid carriages, motorcycles and pedal cycles may be parked without lights on a road (or lay-by) with a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) or less if they are....."_
> 
> Surely the weight reference is wrong?
> ...


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## runnach (Sep 24, 2017)

hairydog said:


> Utterly wrong.
> The Equality Act is all about discriminatory acts. It has nothing to say about opinions, views or attitudes.


 That is not strictly speaking true. I am in general agreement to have an opinion is not an offence to express it can be if the outcome is perceived as discriminatory the point you are making ? 

There are notable exceptions, for example if this forum were to have a committee of sorts , the Equality Act allows the committee to express the opinion that it is under represented by people with say disability, gender , race advertise for candidates and show favour (Positive discrimination ) Within this context the Act is very concerned with opinion, views and attitudes.

So, considering the spirit of the act if vans are parked up in Brighton, it would be a clear breach of the act for the LA to move travellers on and ignore those from the settled community. Equally for a site to refuse travellers and Gypsies is illegal, of course the way they get round it is to try and enforce rules of no commercials no sign written vans.

The Equality Act has made progress towards a fairer society, but there is still a long way to go in general

Channa


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## maureenandtom (Sep 24, 2017)

channa said:


> That is not strictly speaking true. I am in general agreement to have an opinion is not an offence to express it can be if the outcome is perceived as discriminatory the point you are making ?
> 
> There are notable exceptions, for example if this forum were to have a committee of sorts , the Equality Act allows the committee to express the opinion that it is under represented by people with say disability, gender , race advertise for candidates and show favour (Positive discrimination ) Within this context the Act is very concerned with opinion, views and attitudes.
> 
> ...





Yes, that's what I thought and drew attention to earlier but without response.  I noticed this (in my  bold).  If they could prove that tourists were lfet alone while committing the same offence.   The full timers would be able to claim to be "New Travellers" entitled to the protection of the Equality Act.





chrismilo said:


> Had one of these notices thrust in my hand this morning.
> I said what am I if not a member of the public ?
> Having been born and bred in Brighton and pay council tax which I told them fell on deaf ears
> So I had the right to park here
> ...


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## runnach (Sep 24, 2017)

maureenandtom said:


> Yes, that's what I thought and drew attention to earlier but without response.  I noticed this (in my  bold).  If they could prove that tourists were lfet alone while committing the same offence.   The full timers would be able to claim to be "New Travellers" entitled to the protection of the Equality Act.



I have no doubt that full timers are travellers in respect of the Equality Act 2010. 

The definition is those  leading a nomadic lifestyle, If you drill down further ethnicity is recognised eg Irish Gypsys, Roma etc and original legislation was revised to class New Age Travellers as a group. Full Timers tick the boxes re nomadic lifestyle thus fall under the scope of the act. A persons ethnicity within the act in effect is of little importance.

The issue and it doesn't immediately help is there is evidence of discrimination but needs to be proved separately to the PSPO.. Deadline has past I wonder what the outcome has been ?
Incidentally a point I made no one picked up on which lends weight to the above is the hand out letters were suggesting contact with the local traveller liason officer.

Channa


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## chrismilo (Sep 24, 2017)

wildebus said:


> Just to clarify, was this when you wanted to stay overnight, or literally just park for a time?
> B&H attitude seems to be pretty extreme, but wondering if it is extreme to the point of insanity?!



No as said I occasionally  park up there overnight but always gone by 7am
But mostly just go for the day walk the dog tinker with the van 
On this occasion it was 11am just arrived with no intention of overnighting 
They thrust this notice in my hand as a hint not to park overnight 
As I was giving them a hard time the fact I am public I contribute with my council tax to the upkeep of our parks
They got so peed off and went to the next van missing the tourists


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## maureenandtom (Sep 25, 2017)

The Public Spaces Protection Order was authorised by the council in July 2016 to come into effect in January 2017 but with full implementation later in the year.  The council did everything right.  public consultation and consultation with other interested bodies – except us, of course.

It seems that the original suggestion came from council employees – there is very little hint of a prior public concern and there is an outline of extra training and staffing.  

The employee's report and recommendation is at

https://present.brighton-hove.gov.uk/Published/C00000912/M00006397/AI00051965/$20160705104523_009163_0038556_ManagingAntisocialBehaviourinCityParksandOpenSpacesv2.docxA.ps.pdf

Of great interest is that the council asked for a response from the Equality and Human Rights Commission (at page 29) and that body recommended that the council should seek other means of control.  It gave at para 26  its conclusion:





Despite this, despite the public consultation results and two other written responses the council approved the order.

Minutes of the approval are at 
Brighton & Hove City Council - Issue - items at meetings - Managing Anti-social Behaviour in City Parks and Open Spaces
 and it is item 29 we're interest in.

A council spokesman said

29.10
Councillor Wealls congratulated the administration for bringing forward the report and highlighted some of the problems in his own ward. It was clarified that before any powers were used an investigation would take place to look at welfare matters; 

which seems not to have taken place before the possession notice was given to our member.

The council website says that the discussion is available as a webcam publication but I've not been able to find it.

EDIT - I'm not sure if the links are working;   you may have to copy and paste into your browser.   Feedback please?


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## maureenandtom (Sep 25, 2017)

I can't seem to get a working link for the employee's report to the council.

So, I've put a copy in dropbox and you should be able to access it from this link Subject_ - $20160705104523_009163_0038556_ManagingAntisocialBehaviourinCityParksandOpenSpacesv2.docxA.ps.pdf


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## suneye (Sep 26, 2017)

If you would like the select committee for local government to look into the use of PSPOs (which are effectively allowing local councils to criminalise anything they don't like) please sign this petition.  It may not work but better than doing nothing.

Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPO) | Campaigns by You


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## Craigchester (Oct 15, 2017)

channa said:


> No idea re Northern Ireland Trev, but certainly on the mainland refusing to give name and address to officials is a criminal offence. good example dog wardens is a common one or the folk wandering about working for the council ( or on behalf of) fining people for allegedly dropping litter.
> 
> Channa



No way is it a criminal offence for refusing to give your name and address to anyone including the bill unless you have been arrested.


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## runnach (Oct 15, 2017)

Craigchester said:


> No way is it a criminal offence for refusing to give your name and address to anyone including the bill unless you have been arrested.



I strongly suggest you  do some homework 

Channa


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## Robmac (Oct 15, 2017)

channa said:


> I strongly suggest you  do some homework
> 
> Channa



He is right in some respects Andy. 

A policeman has no right to ask your name and address without good reason. If he asks you, he must give you the reason if you request it.


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## runnach (Oct 15, 2017)

Robmac said:


> He is right in some respects Andy.
> 
> A policeman has no right to ask your name and address without good reason. If he asks you, he must give you the reason if you request it.



section 50 of the police reform act suggests different ! That is before we discuss devolved powers. 

Channa


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## Robmac (Oct 15, 2017)

channa said:


> section 50 of the police reform act suggests different ! That is before we discuss devolved powers.
> 
> Channa



That is what I am saying Andy, they must give a reasonable argument for asking these details. Otherwise, they are acting unlawfully;

Your rights and section 50 Police Reform Act  |   Netpol

Not something I would like to put to the test, I must admit, but if I had done nothing wrong, I would certainly ask why they wanted my details.


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## runnach (Oct 15, 2017)

More proof as if it were needed more relevant it relates to council enforecement officers 

Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005


7

Power to require name and address
.



(1)

If an authorised officer of a local authority proposes to give a person a notice under section 6, the officer may require the person to give him his name and address.
.

(2)

A person commits an offence if—
.

(a)

he fails to give his name and address when required to do so under subsection (1), or
.

(b)

he gives a false or inaccurate name or address in response to a requirement under that subsection.
.

(3)

A person guilty of an offence under subsection (2) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

Channa ...Like I suggest do some homework


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## Craigchester (Oct 15, 2017)

Robmac said:


> He is right in some respects Andy.
> 
> A policeman has no right to ask your name and address without good reason. If he asks you, he must give you the reason if you request it.



I think you mean I'm right in every way. 

The way I understand it with these tickets whoever is giving them out, is its, a contract which you consent to if you acknowledge receipt of.

Either way, it's an unmanageable law. What if it's freezing and a blizzard happened and you couldn't move you'd have to sleep in your vehicle. I can think there be loads of other occasions where you might need to sleep in your vehicle.


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## molly 2 (Oct 15, 2017)

Would  a pspo stop the herds of off road uninsured bikers using parks and open spacers as bike tracks .would pspo stop drug dealers plying their wares on street corners .would pspo stop pick pockets and muggers from robing pensioners.If yes bring it on .if no what's the point .


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## runnach (Oct 15, 2017)

molly 2 said:


> Would  a pspo stop the herds of off road uninsured bikers using parks and open spacers as bike tracks .would pspo stop drug dealers plying their wares on street corners .would pspo stop pick pockets and muggers from robing pensioners.If yes bring it on .if no what's the point .


The simple answer is yes 

Channa


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