# Diesel Freezing ???



## Hazy-thoughts (Nov 28, 2010)

Hi all, I have a 1997 hymer motorhome on a merc 2.9 diesel.
Found to my horror last night that it just wouldnt start after starting first time every time ever since I had it. We have been suffering extreme cold temps, it was -6 outside when I woke this morning and I can only think that it will be my diesel freezing. Battery is strong, although weakening due to trying to start, engine seems to be turning fine but just absolutely nothing. I have fuel albeit not a massive amount in there.


What do you guys suggest  to try to rectify the problem


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## Deleted member 13859 (Nov 28, 2010)

*freezing*

hi
it could possibly be water trapped in the filter housing that has frozen as most diesel now days has antifreeze stuff in it to stop it freezing.
days gone by people used to put a bit of petrol in the tank, I'm sure someone will have better idea's
is it possible to put a heater under the engine to keep it warm overnight?
good luck

tranivanman


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

the temps we have in this country wont freeze diesel you may have some water in the system that has frozen but i doubt that that will be causing the problem . with your low fuel you may have air in the system so put some more fuel in and bleed the system see if that works .never realy had much to do with diesel engines never been my cup of tea realy. only had one diesel  a pug 405 and i kept trying to run it on petrol .!!!!!!!!


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## Tony Lee (Nov 28, 2010)

Any sort of auto cold-start sequence that might not be working. Glow plugs, air preheater???


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## AndyC (Nov 28, 2010)

Glow plugs or relay probably. Do you get the glow plug light coming on?

AndyC


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## maingate (Nov 28, 2010)

Did you wait long enough before attempting to turn the engine over?

Also try the glow plugs twice or three times before trying to crank the engine.


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## dolmen (Nov 28, 2010)

All good advice you received. I put a cup full of petrol in each full tank of diesel it helps stop the diesel from waxing / freezing.

Cheers


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## David & Ann (Nov 28, 2010)

AndyC said:


> Glow plugs or relay probably. Do you get the glow plug light coming on?
> 
> AndyC


 
After reading these posts I went out to my MH, and stared the engine, it started immediately. It is the first time in 2 weeks. I don't think I have a glow lamp or whatever. It is diesel, German model.


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 28, 2010)

David & Ann said:


> After reading these posts I went out to my MH, and stared the engine, it started immediately. It is the first time in 2 weeks. I don't think I have a glow lamp or whatever. It is diesel, German model.


 
When you turn the ignition on a light should show on the left of the speedo it is yellow and has a picture of a coil.  This is the glow plug light and you should wait until it goes out before you crank the engine over.  If it isn't working your glow plugs aren't working.

As maingate says.
Did you wait long enough before attempting to turn the engine over?

Also try the glow plugs twice or three times before trying to crank the engine. 

Another ruse is to preheat the intake air with a flame but make sure you don't draw any material into the air intake from an oily rag.  My old Commer had a pot of diesel with a plug that ignited it and it drew this flame into the air intake as it was cranked over as a means of starting.  I have used a Calor burner or Gas Fire lighter poker to do this as well.

Diesels will also start on LPG drawn in through the air intake.


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## Deleted member 775 (Nov 28, 2010)

you can also use ether based easy start but you should be warey ,if you manage to get unburnt easy start or lpg which is a new one to me and sounds a bit iffy  in the exhaust and the engine fires up bang goes the exhaust system . also i read someware that if using easy start you must disconnect the heater plugs first


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## lebesset (Nov 28, 2010)

get a fiat


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 28, 2010)

mandrake said:


> you can also use ether based easy start but you should be warey ,if you manage to get unburnt easy start or lpg which is a new one to me and sounds a bit iffy  in the exhaust and the engine fires up bang goes the exhaust system . also i read someware that if using easy start you must disconnect the heater plugs first


 
I used LPG to start a non starter in the wilds of NW Scotland after an engine change.  It fires up straight away with the compression.  I ran it until it drew diesel through the system on an old Ford 6D bus.  If it got into the exhaust it just burns, it would only explode if the exhaust was blocked off.


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## bigal (Nov 28, 2010)

lebesset said:


> get a fiat


 
    LOL, yeh enough with the Merc already, so much for the super dooper reliability.
























                                          Just kidding..................


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## Deleted member 207 (Nov 29, 2010)

Hazy-thoughts said:


> Hi all, I have a 1997 hymer motorhome on a merc 2.9 diesel.
> Found to my horror last night that it just wouldnt start after starting first time every time ever since I had it. We have been suffering extreme cold temps, it was -6 outside when I woke this morning and I can only think that it will be my diesel freezing. Battery is strong, although weakening due to trying to start, engine seems to be turning fine but just absolutely nothing. I have fuel albeit not a massive amount in there.
> 
> 
> What do you guys suggest  to try to rectify the problem



-6C will get the diesel a bit cloudy not frozen by a long shot, it just maybe cold enough to cause a bit of separation in the fuel filter mounted up on the engine, it might even get some wax to form on the paper elements as well. You can give the fuel filter a dose of fresh fuel from the tank by using the manual lift pump on the back of the injection pump. If the pump is rock hard and wont pump at all its a fair sign that the filter is blocked.

You can try a hair drier on the filter and injection pump fuel lines to warm things up enough to get you going, or a hose of hot water over the fuel pipes/pump.

Aerostart (ether) as mentioned is a good way to get things going - BUT - you have to know that fuel is going through the injection pump to keep the engine running.

Try clearing the water separator - located either before the lift pump or on the front of the fuel tank, some 2.9 engines (pre electronic) did not have one at all. 

In years gone by in really cold weather the trick was to light a small fire under the engine, surprising how many trucks went up in smoke!!!


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## lebesset (Nov 29, 2010)

modern diesels have far more sophisticated starting devices fitted ; eg , in 1998 fiat changed to a triple play control system , you get a pre-heat [ continuous light ] , when that goes out it heats while you start [ no light ] , then a flashing light ,still heating while the engine gets above dead cold [ am told that is +4C , but can't confirm ] ; this also applies to my motorhome , which doesn't have glowplugs but a thermostarter

I suspect yours hasn't got this , mercedes are pretty conservative and tend to be slow in introducing new developments ; if the light flashes after starting it almost certainly has however

try the old trick of double heating .....pre-heat the glowplugs and then switch off ; pre-heat again and try to start ; how long does the pre-heat light stay on anyway ? it should be a lot longer in these temperatures 

you DO have winter diesel in I presume .....in the uk the mix tends to change end of october if I remember correctly , and is then good for -15C


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## lebesset (Nov 29, 2010)

thinking further about your problem , may I suggest the following 
the most common causes of your problem are 

worn out glow plugs or
faulty glow plug timer 

if the double heating trick doesn't work it can still be either ...just because the light works doesn't guarantee that the glow plugs are heating , the timer may have lit the light but not provided electricity to the plugs 

so find the contact to which the plugs are connected ; using a jump lead or similar , connect that contact to the +tive on the battery for 10 seconds ...try to start the engine ; if it starts , you are 99% certain to have a faulty timer , if it doesn't , it likely to be the plugs 
as an example , I had to move the motorhome yesterday , at -6C it started instantly without turning over at all ...and it still has summer diesel ; of course , it is a fiat


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## 4x4busdriver (Nov 29, 2010)

I was told by an HGV mechanic that it was not a good idea to leave the fuel level low as condensate formed inside the tank and this would then freeze. Don't know if this of any help but it seems to work for me, or have I just been fortunate?


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## lebesset (Nov 29, 2010)

all is well now ? 
have I missed something ?


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## shawbags (Nov 29, 2010)

As already suggested make sure the glow plug light has gone out before trying to start the van and heat the plugs twice,if the glow plugs are worn in some cases it might start up rough on maybe 3 or even 2 cylinders at first and then build up to all 4 cylinders or 5 if your van is a 5 cylinder,if thats the case get them changed,cheers Chris.


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## coolasluck (Dec 1, 2010)

Well we have just had the very same problem with our hymer,but this time its a fiat engine.We are currently in Manchester and the temp has not gone above freezing for 4 days.We are the same as the original poster never a problem starting,so this is a first for us.Definately a problem with the cold,and have tried prior to coming on here multiple heating of the glow plugs but with no success.Have left the van with the truma on to determine if putting some heat in the van will work,although a bit of a long shot.


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## maingate (Dec 1, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your problems coolie.

You are not set up for Northern conditions by the sound of it. I bet you do not venture North again after this. 

Try a hair drier on your air filter as has been suggested. Also a kettle of boiling water on your inlet manifold might help.

The AA and RAC are getting thousands of calls a day about vehicles not starting due to the weather conditions.


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 1, 2010)

sounds  like there is a problem with the cold weather ,i have  just been down to a freind of mine who has had trouble with his van starting ,again a diesel  we heated the fuel feed up with a fan heater  and it started .looks as if the diesel is hitting such a low temp for such  a prolonged time  combined with a very cold engine that it  is causing the starting problems . as we all know diesel has a high flash point and depends on the temperature built up with the compresion  in the cylinders. lower temp of the fuel combined with the much colder engine may be causing some of the problems also heater plugs that may not be as efficient through age will not help. this prolonged spell of realy low temps realy sort out the weak links in any system


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## coolasluck (Dec 1, 2010)

Maingate,i would have thought you could just pop over across the country and give us a hand

It looks like we are just going to ring the rac as the battery is now pretty low so this is the easiest solution,as Mandrake says things need to thaw out,im just scared of completely flattening the battery as my alarm and immobiliser code could be wiped and need recoding.


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## Bernard Jones (Dec 1, 2010)

Diesel will certainly be thicker than normal, some fuel systems pump it through better than others.  In particular the newer vehicles with a fuel pump submerged in the tank pushing the diesel out will cope far better than the older type that just has the mechanical pump on the engine sucking it all the way up from the tank.


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## maingate (Dec 1, 2010)

Read my signature sunshine. You are the biggest nuisance on here. 

If you do not mind waiting around for 3 days, I will set off now. it is difficult to get the car out of the street here. The dogs have had to make do with the little local park a few times.

We got out OK this morning but it has snowed quite a bit since then. The AA will be quicker than me (but not as good).

I spent a couple of hours clearing the deep snow off the m/home roof this afternoon and I am shattered. There must have been a ton of the white stuff up there.

You youngsters would be lost without us old codgers.


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## Hazy-thoughts (Dec 1, 2010)

Hi guys, Apologies for not replying sooner.
The problem is now solved, it seems it was the prolonged -0 temps rather than the fact it was -6. (we actually got as low as -10 last night)
I opened bonnet and let sun on engine for a while, then tried a hot water bottle on injectors, by this time battery was flat so got a jump start a few hours later and she fired up a treat.

Really strange though I have never experienced this before


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## coolasluck (Dec 2, 2010)

Its going to be -10 here tonight,still waiting for the Maingate,his cup of tea has gone cold I dont want to call out the rac today but have chosen to phone tommorow instead as i know that tonight should be the coldest,so will call tomorow instead.
Say hello to the wife for us Maingate and give the dogs a fuss,i am glad i am not in the Newcastle area id be sick of it all by know.Alright if you are a child of school i suppose.See you on xmas day for some lunch ay your place.


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## lebesset (Dec 2, 2010)

bear in mind that winter diesel in the uk is only formulated to be certain to work down to -15C 
in mainland europe , where they get properly cold weather , -20C is more normal 

if I lived in the uk I would be certain to fill the tank with winter diesel once november came , and before any properly cold weather arrived ...~i wonder if filling stations know when they have winter diesel in their tanks [ or at least partly winter diesel ]


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## Bernard Jones (Dec 2, 2010)

The thing about diesel 'freezing' , or more actually waxing up, is that it does not solidify and melt around the same temperature like water does at 0 degrees C. Typically untreated diesel will form wax crystals at about (can't remember the exact figures) -2, and clog your system at -6.  But it will not be sufficient to raise the temperature to -2 to get it flowing again.  You would have to raise the temperatue to about +10 to get it flowing again.  You can see the effect of this with a bottle of olive oil that has got cold outside and turned cloudy.  You have to get it a lot warmer than the temperature it went cloudy at, in order to get it clear again. 

Some filling stations sell bottles of additive you can put in diesel to stop it waxing, but the problem is they have to be mixed in with the diesel when it is above about 10 degrees C.  If you mix them in when the diesel is colder than that they just don't work, even if the diesel is still thin enough to keep the engine running when you mix them in.


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## Hazy-thoughts (Dec 2, 2010)

I must be honest that I never realised that companies used a different formula for winter use, and I am willing to bet a pound to a penny that most of the herberts that work the forecourts wouldnt have a clue either.
On having my problem I checked out the BP Diesel website(that being the fuel I had most recently added to tank.)
They say that fuel varies in each country according to conditions and seasonally what is sold is adjusted accordingly. So theoretically you should never have a problem, I fear the prolonged period of extreme temperatures that we have suffered recently have just caught some of us and them out


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## maingate (Dec 2, 2010)

coolasluck said:


> Its going to be -10 here tonight,still waiting for the Maingate,his cup of tea has gone cold I dont want to call out the rac today but have chosen to phone tommorow instead as i know that tonight should be the coldest,so will call tomorow instead.
> Say hello to the wife for us Maingate and give the dogs a fuss,i am glad i am not in the Newcastle area id be sick of it all by know.Alright if you are a child of school i suppose.See you on xmas day for some lunch ay your place.


 
We look forward to seeing you both on Christmas Day coolie. We are not sure of what we will be having for lunch yet, it depends what the dogs can catch. The chances are it will be Rabbit or Grey Squirrel. If they are unlucky then it might be one of the neighbours cats.


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## coolasluck (Dec 2, 2010)

Well you know us Maingate,we dont care what road or dog kill it is,just make sure you cook it properly.I will also bring my balloons with me i know how much you all liked the performance that i gave you all last year


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## dogmanlpool (Dec 4, 2010)

*merc deisel 2.9*



Hazy-thoughts said:


> Hi all, I have a 1997 hymer motorhome on a merc 2.9 diesel.
> Found to my horror last night that it just wouldnt start after starting first time every time ever since I had it. We have been suffering extreme cold temps, it was -6 outside when I woke this morning and I can only think that it will be my diesel freezing. Battery is strong, although weakening due to trying to start, engine seems to be turning fine but just absolutely nothing. I have fuel albeit not a massive amount in there.
> 
> 
> What do you guys suggest  to try to rectify the problem


 
hello there ? just had the same problem ? i have a 1998 ssanyang 4x4  with the merc 2.9 five cylinder non turbo ??? done exactly what yours did ? and now it is fine ?? give it extra heater plugs i found works ? is yours the same engine ??? dogmanlpool


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## Tony Lee (Dec 4, 2010)

This works with big diesel engines without glow plugs so might be of some use with modern engines.

Use the glow plug as usual and crank the engine for about 20 seconds. Switch off, wait for 15 seconds and then repeat.

Theory is that normal cranking does heat the cylinders up by compressing the air even though it doesn't get hot enough to fire. Waiting a few seconds allows the heat to warm the cylinder head and walls so thge next try is likely to be successful.


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## Hazy-thoughts (Dec 4, 2010)

dogmanlpool said:


> hello there ? just had the same problem ? i have a 1998 ssanyang 4x4  with the merc 2.9 five cylinder non turbo ??? done exactly what yours did ? and now it is fine ?? give it extra heater plugs i found works ? is yours the same engine ??? dogmanlpool


 

Yes I believe it will be


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## barnybg (Dec 5, 2010)

*Freezing ???*

SoLadies and Gentlemen,have you taken it all in,as there's loads of  'old facts' and meanderings,but basicly it wont hurt,if a newish van or an old timer,is to ......
_ turn ignition ON,watching the Ign lights,(on some models you will have a 'diesel' light )_ you leave Ignition on for a few seconds (that light if you hve one ) will go out.
_ Turn off ignition a second then repeat,maybe do it several times _ This PRE-HEATS engine/fuel, *Then and only then,try actually turning engine over with the ignition *
I would also carry a spray tin of  _ EASY START _ usually (if struggling to start,wether cold or not) a quick squirt or two of this up into air filter (pipe) before or during ,turning over engine,usually does the trick.
You will find that your weak or oldish starter batteries will be struggling in minus temperatures too.
Couple of extra tips...wrap up your baby...old blanket/duvet or similar under bonnet (dont forget BEFORE starting) perhaps a trip to builders yard or a B&Q type place for _insulation _ there's all sorts,use your logic and imagination,to figure out whats best for your engines needs,lol,also the thick tiled stuff,in sheets?(over here they are used for cladding houses before render) one or two of them,placed under  the vehicle engine,may prevent the cold rising,also wrap the deisel filter, if possible and not dangerous.
Dont forget * antifreeze * and that is also sold in different temperature bands,is yours low enough ? as the UK is experiencing cold weather and can get colder,over here its different prices for different grades,going down to * - 50 * ! Brrr now thats cold,only been as low as - 25c so far since i've lived here,and old Lada's still out and about...lol
Hope i have helped explain what others have said,and added a few more HELPS/tips.


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## lebesset (Dec 5, 2010)

Do not do the double heat system if you have a thermostarter instead of glow plugs


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## LDV Camper (Dec 5, 2010)

*Bad Advice*

I'm sure all the 'advice' posted here is well intended but I can assure you it is nonetheless not good! Your engine has been designed to start with 'one' cycle of the heater plugs and nothing but air going in through the air intake. Retrying the glowplugs or putting anything such as LPG or (worse still) easy start spray down the air intake 'WILL' damage your engine.

Get ready for the raft of folk who will say: "Oh, but I do that and mine is ok!". Yep, but that doesn't make it a good idea does it?

If yours won't start in -6c then there are three things to check. First, is the diesel in the tank 'winter' diesel - or is it a left over from summer touring. Fuel manufacturers put anti waxing agents and other additives into fuel in the winter. Be sure to fill up the tanks with fresh fuel once the weather turns cold.

Second, are there heater plugs and are they working. If you have heater plugs on your engine there should be a fairly obvious wire running along the side of the engine and attached to four (if four cylinder) obvious terminals. Unbolt the wire and use a multi tester to check the resistance of each heater plug. It should be as close to zero as makes no difference. If in doubt, go to a dealer and ask to put your multitester across a brand new heater plug. If yours show much different resistance - either more or less - then replace them. A diesel engine will often start fine with one or even no heater plugs working in warm weather.

Lastly. Try a jumpstart or put a battery charger on over night. Some modern vehicles (my own transit sourced Duratorque included) just won't start if the battery voltage is low. They will turn over just fine but the management system seems to prevent fuel getting into the system if the voltage is low. A simple boost will often solve the problem. Don't bother trying to roll-start it. Many modern engines have specific systems in place to prevent this so as not to risk damage to the catalyst.

Sorry it's a lengthy reply but worth putting the record straight at a time of year when many will struggle with similar situations.


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## coolasluck (Dec 6, 2010)

All was well in the end,i phoned the rac and was told i would have to wait for 4-6 hours.
In the end i dot it started in the end with the father in laws car,hotwater bottles and some sun on the engine.In future i shall start each day when away


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## Hazy-thoughts (Dec 7, 2010)

LDV Camper said:


> I'm sure all the 'advice' posted here is well intended but I can assure you it is nonetheless not good! Your engine has been designed to start with 'one' cycle of the heater plugs and nothing but air going in through the air intake. Retrying the glowplugs or putting anything such as LPG or (worse still) easy start spray down the air intake 'WILL' damage your engine.
> 
> Get ready for the raft of folk who will say: "Oh, but I do that and mine is ok!". Yep, but that doesn't make it a good idea does it?
> 
> ...


 

Whilst I dont doubt you are well meaning, I got mine started in exactly the way I stated, opening bonnet and letting sun on engine, hot water bottle on injectors and a jump start as I had run down my battery trying. Coolasluck obviously tried the same according to his last post, so how do you come to the conclusion it is "not good advice" ??? 
Surely if it works for two of us and gets us started and home (or wherever we are going) then it is good advice


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## Deleted member 775 (Dec 8, 2010)

i cannot see any harm in warming up a realy cold engine  at all , also a double dose of the heater plugs wont harm the engine,  only thing it will do is take a little more charge out of the battery and if your battery is up to the job no probs . only thing i would not use is easy start, as engines can come to rely on it they get hooked on it ,i dont know why but ask any old mechanic not these modern  fitters that seem to call themselves mechanics nowadays, or diesel owner and they will tell you the same


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## Norris (Dec 8, 2010)

We must be very lucky then, our old van is a Talbot Merlin running on LPG and it has started without fail every day that I have tried it, and we have had temperature down to -10.


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## Bernard Jones (Dec 14, 2010)

mandrake said:


> a double dose of the heater plugs wont harm the engine


 
No but it might melt the heating element in the plug.


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## Suntor 100 (Jan 3, 2011)

mandrake said:


> i cannot see any harm in warming up a realy cold engine  at all , also a double dose of the heater plugs wont harm the engine,  only thing it will do is take a little more charge out of the battery and if your battery is up to the job no probs . only thing i would not use is easy start, as engines can come to rely on it they get hooked on it ,i dont know why but ask any old mechanic not these modern  fitters that seem to call themselves mechanics nowadays, or diesel owner and they will tell you the same


 
Hi all, just my contribution to the thread, having been in farming and dealing with cold weather starting of old 275 internationals 40 years ago, (newer tractors are much more reliable now) the use of easy start was regularly used and as Mandrake above say's they did seem to become dependant on it, plus when initially fired up would cause engine knock for a quite a few seconds after which could cause premature wear and tear on the engine. Happy new year to you all.


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## maingate (Jan 3, 2011)

Boil the kettle and pour the water on the inlet manifold will do the same job.


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## coolasluck (Jan 3, 2011)

Bloody Maingate another bleeding expert


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## masopust1 (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi,

Just had the same problem with the diesel freezing. Had 7 consecutive days of -11 to -15 and the old motor turned over then cut out.  Fortunately it was on the drive at home. Probably the diesel in the pipes, rather than the tank itself. Have experienced this problem in the past with diesel freezing in Northern Germany but then it was -25 regularly.


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## maingate (Jan 3, 2011)

coolasluck said:


> Bloody Maingate another bleeding expert


 
Sometimes coolie, I wish I was a numpty like you. 

My van had not turned a wheel for some time. The tank was nearly empty and what was in was not winter diesel. It started OK and got me to the garage (which is less than half a mile away).

Now I have pre-VAT winter diesel.


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