# CAMPRA- Campaign for Real Aires



## barge1914 (Jul 1, 2020)

Thanks to following a link someone kindly posted I've found myself a member of this. Its being lead by quite a dedicated bunch of folks who are happy to spend their time pursuing this campaign despite the cynicism of many in the motorhome community and the evident opposition or sheer disinterest of many in the local corridors of power. Nevertheless things are stirring and I learnt of a lot more authorities showing some more enlightened thinking, and a few already establishing motorhome overnight parking facilities. There will be a dire need in the wake of Covid to establish facilities for water and waste in some parts of the country, and if this does't get addressed we Wildcampers will be in the front line of a lot of local ire and hostility trying to empty our cassettes in bogs that people are trying to keep Covid free. Then of course we need to reverse the continual erosion of places to stay, and to create more. A lot to be done! Somehow thanks to my letter to Whitby arriving and circulating as a proforma long before I got there in person I seem ,with some bemusement, to be elected to the leadership team...hopefully not a poisoned chalice! Anyway, the purpose of this post is to encourage as many people as possible to join our Facebook  group, we need now to greatly increase our media presence. So PRETTY PLEASE, follow this link and subscribe...









						Campaign for Real Aires UK - CAMpRA | Facebook
					

Our aim is to promote the year round recreational use of motorcaravans and to encourage mental and physical wellbeing of motorcaravan owners.  Europe has realised the benefits for tourism from...




					www.facebook.com


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## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

The more members the better


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## Sharon the Cat (Jul 2, 2020)

Joined


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## winks (Jul 2, 2020)

I've also joined the group and I'm pleased to see things taking shape. Apart from the usual compliment of people who just want to vent, nothing wrong with that, the direction seems to be becoming more resolved. This is the post I put on the Facebook page. As yet I've not had a reply from my email to the Roundhouse Cafe.








						Campaign for Real Aires UK - CAMpRA | Facebook
					

Our aim is to promote the year round recreational use of motorcaravans and to encourage mental and physical wellbeing of motorcaravan owners.  Europe has realised the benefits for tourism from...




					www.facebook.com
				




Cheers

H


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## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Looking at the locations of all CAMpRA members, as much as we could use more members everywhere, given the recent adverse stirrings from the lady in Glencoe I can see there's a crying need for more of our Scottish Wildcampers to join CAMpRA.


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## Moonraker 2 (Jul 2, 2020)

I have joined and hope that our joint actions can achieve something. 
Don't forget to compliment councils that are doing something and challeng those who do not.
Any NT members please continue to harass the board for use of some of their carparks.
Keep on everyone.


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## izwozral (Jul 2, 2020)

There are a lot more signing up to it Ian if you look at. 

Wildcamping in _Scotland_-An existential threat.


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## Kontiki (Jul 2, 2020)

Joined, there have been numerous campaigns, petitions but it seems there is always something or somebody stopping it happening. Even the the Motorcaravan Club was trying to get something going as well as some of the motorhoming magazines. I will watch with interest to see how it goes, maybe it might come as a result of Covid & more people either having to or wanting to stay in the UK. Are you looking at private aires or trying to establish something like on the continent where they seem to be run by local councils.


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## TeamRienza (Jul 2, 2020)

Tried to sign up but cannot access the questions or rules. Pressed submit anyway.

Davy


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## peecee (Jul 2, 2020)

I have joined and our new world order after Covid  might concentrate a few minds !


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## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> Tried to sign up but cannot access the questions or rules. Pressed submit anyway.
> 
> Davy


You probably tried to join the management group fb page rather than the fb group itself.  CAMpRA. Campaign for real Aires.  It also has a website now. Campra.org.uk  Its a work in progress as it was only started this week.  Meg


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## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Thanks to following a link someone kindly posted I've found myself a member of this. Its being lead by quite a dedicated bunch of folks who are happy to spend their time pursuing this campaign despite the cynicism of many in the motorhome community and the evident opposition or sheer disinterest of many in the local corridors of power. Nevertheless things are stirring and I learnt of a lot more authorities showing some more enlightened thinking, and a few already establishing motorhome overnight parking facilities. There will be a dire need in the wake of Covid to establish facilities for water and waste in some parts of the country, and if this does't get addressed we Wildcampers will be in the front line of a lot of local ire and hostility trying to empty our cassettes in bogs that people are trying to keep Covid free. Then of course we need to reverse the continual erosion of places to stay, and to create more. A lot to be done! Somehow thanks to my letter to Whitby arriving and circulating as a proforma long before I got there in person I seem ,with some bemusement, to be elected to the leadership team...hopefully not a poisoned chalice! Anyway, the purpose of this post is to encourage as many people as possible to join our Facebook  group, we need now to greatly increase our media presence. So PRETTY PLEASE, follow this link and subscribe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was me who posted the link.  You gave me permission to use your letter and it has been used by some of the group members.  The fb group went from about 200 for the last few months to over 3000 in less than a week.  Its to be hoped that the new members are proactive and will make positive contacts to get more aires.  Meg


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 2, 2020)

I joined the other day


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## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Here’s hoping that this campaign leads to a body to represent us properly.
Until we have a body who put us at the forefront we will struggle.
Its important that any such body not only fights our corner, but helps through education to change how we are viewed.

I would gladly join and be active within such a body.
let’s see what develops.


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## Biggarmac (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Here’s hoping that this campaign leads to a body to represent us properly.
> Until we have a body who put us at the forefront we will struggle.
> Its important that any such body not only fights our corner, but helps through education to change how we are viewed.
> 
> ...


You said you don't do facebook.  Here is the website. Campra.org.uk.  Meg


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## Fisherman (Jul 2, 2020)

Biggarmac said:


> You said you don't do facebook.  Here is the website. Campra.org.uk.  Meg



Thanks meg just tried it but it’s not ready yet, it’s under construction. It’s no more than a link to FB.


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## RichardHelen262 (Jul 2, 2020)

I joined last week and invited a few others who also joined


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## barge1914 (Jul 2, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Thanks meg just tried it but it’s not ready yet, it’s under construction. It’s no more than a link to FB.


Give it a little time, it was only mooted at our meeting this week, momentum is growing. I must admit I’ve religiously avoided Facebook in the past, it’s my first time, I find it a bit clunky really, the key thing is to get all your security settings in place at the outset.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jul 3, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Give it a little time, it was only mooted at our meeting this week, momentum is growing. I must admit I’ve religiously avoided Facebook in the past, it’s my first time, I find it a bit clunky really, *the key thing is to get all your security settings in place at the outset*.



That's the first thing everyone should do as soon as they've joined FB and you need to do it before you make any posts!

I'm a reluctant user, not because of all the furore about the rubbish that gets posted up. Like anything, it's what you use it for that counts and there are lots of special interest groups and pages which can be quite useful and interesting. Also I found it was a reasonably good way of communicating with others instead of using email. My major dislike was because I think it is a badly designed bit of software. How the hell it achieved such popularity beats me!

No doubt it will be eventually be superseded in the future by offerings from other new kids on the silicone valley block, or it will eventually morph into something a bit more practical & useable.


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## Penny13 (Jul 3, 2020)

I can’t join as not on FB but I have had a look at the web page. WC in just the few years we have been doing it is getting harder. We have suggested to our boss that he runs a few pitches at Aire prices maybe run it by him again.


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## Millie Master (Jul 3, 2020)

I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!

My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.

Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.


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## royh28 (Jul 3, 2020)

Joined. Don't do much FB but seems a good site to follow.

Stay safe.  Roy & Pauline.


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## Biggarmac (Jul 3, 2020)

Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!
> 
> My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.
> 
> Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.


Even this site has its "brainless idiot" comments.  The CAMpRa site went from 200 members to over 3000 in a week.  Anyone can post, but the moderators are working at taking non relevant posts out.  Give them a chance!  Covid has changed what we can do in many ways.  This fb group are looking at how we can improve facilities for motorhomers AND the communities we visit.  There is a great deal of work going on behind the scenes.


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## barge1914 (Jul 3, 2020)

Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!
> 
> My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.
> 
> Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.





Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!
> 
> My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.
> 
> Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.


Whilst the group you joined is open to all the real work is being done behind the scenes by a leadership team. People who have demonstrated valuable experience, have useful skills and capabilities have been invited to join this team. Someone with council experience may have been useful. However if all councillors are so quick to demonstrate their prejudices and have nothing but contempt for other people and groups  then its evident we will indeed have an enormous challenge on our hands. 
As for travellers, can you please point out any one of the permitted council operated motorhome parking areas that have been invaded?
I should also note the travellers are not a homogenous group, there are some sub-groups with quite valid reasons for their lifestyle who are even more p****d off by the behaviour of the more feral travellers as we and the authorities are as it makes their lives even more difficult.


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## Fisherman (Jul 3, 2020)

Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!
> 
> My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.
> 
> Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.



Millie you do highlight a valid issue.
But there are already thousands of carparks open to anyone including travellers to park overnight in.
And apart from rare examples I don't see there is a great issue in the vast majority of places.
Personally speaking I am not really looking for aires to be formed for our use.
I am more interested in the removal of barriers and idiotic signage that already exists.
If these barriers and signage were removed there probably would be no need for aires everywhere.

All I am looking for is to be treated the same as other road users.
Not treated like we are a problem that has to be dealt with.
But if aires are made available then that would be great.
But I don't see that happening anytime soon, particularly in the current financial situation.


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## maureenandtom (Jul 3, 2020)

Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!
> 
> My reason for doing so is that I have a lot of friends in our UK's very stretched police forces and I have personal experience as a former District Councillor, so I know only too well that like it or not if open access parking areas similar to the truly excellent aires system in France were ever to be established then they would become a magnet for the low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations.
> 
> Whereas in France where if there is any trouble the local gendarmerie will send a significant quite heavily armed group in to move the unwanteds on, in the UK, I know from personal experience it can take months and in some cases years to actually get these people moved because our hands are tied by time wasting red tape that ends up costing our communities £millions each and every year.




Forgive me.  I think you are being a little unfair but not unrepresentative.   If you find some to be brainless idiots – and you are not – then your input would be invaluable as a balanced viewpoint.

To my knowledge there has been only one possible place where somewhat of a_ low-life Travelle_r invasion may have taken place – Blackpool – but that may have been due to Travellers having been illegally moved on during this Covid emergency.   So far as I know all other_ aires_ have never been invaded.  Canterbury, Hawick, Torridge, Helmsley, and others, have remained remarkably free in view of your certainty that they would become magnets..

Some have been working hard for years to retain our freedoms;   your attitude is not uncommon even among motorhomers = but it was never helpful.  

I'm sorry you think the laws of our land are time wasting red tape in this particular circumstance - something I've found not uncommon among those of you elected to represent us.  A viewpoint similar to "t_he low life traveller community who in the main totally ignore rules, laws and regulations"._


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## Val54 (Jul 3, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Millie you do highlight a valid issue.
> But there are already thousands of carparks open to anyone including travellers to park overnight in.
> And apart from rare examples I don't see there is a great issue in the vast majority of places.
> Personally speaking I am not really looking for aires to be formed for our use.
> ...



Whatever our personal view, the "traveller" issue will not go away until there is a political will to resolve it in a comprehensive manner across the UK, leaving it for individual Councils to resolve in their own areas, has not and will not work. The reason I mention it is that if the current efforts to provide more opportunities for us are to succeed, then those Council areas where the "traveller" issue is not a problem should be first on the list. You are not going to persuade those Councils who have ongoing issues with traveller incursions to remove height barriers etc.


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## Fisherman (Jul 3, 2020)

Val54 said:


> Whatever our personal view, the "traveller" issue will not go away until there is a political will to resolve it in a comprehensive manner across the UK, leaving it for individual Councils to resolve in their own areas, has not and will not work. The reason I mention it is that if the current efforts to provide more opportunities for us are to succeed, then those Council areas where the "traveller" issue is not a problem should be first on the list. You are not going to persuade those Councils who have ongoing issues with traveller incursions to remove height barriers etc.



Also it’s paramount that we are not grouped in with the travelling community.
Our needs are minimal, basically somewhere to park. One of the aims of this growing movement on FB, must must look towards education, not only of the public, but councillors also. But like you I believe National policies from each of the uk governments are essential. Our rights need to be guaranteed within the law, in order to prevent many of the abuses handed out to us in recent years.


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## barge1914 (Jul 3, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Millie you do highlight a valid issue.
> But there are already thousands of carparks open to anyone including travellers to park overnight in.
> And apart from rare examples I don't see there is a great issue in the vast majority of places.
> Personally speaking I am not really looking for aires to be formed for our use.
> ...


What is being sought is a much broader range of facilities, than perhaps you interpret. Aires for the sake of a catch all term embraces unserviced car parks and open spaces where motorhomes are tolerated, such as you and I use most frequently (ie. ordinary car parks without barriers or bans), through a range of serviced and unserviced options appropriate to different locations and providers,  budgets, and frequency of use, right up to mini-campsites for motorhomes. You see all these variations throughout Europe. We are not wearing blinkers.


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## TeamRienza (Jul 3, 2020)

The North Down and Ards council area who I lobbied, (some of you will remember completing their survey some time back) were (are) hoping to provide nine locations throughout their area. Six would simply be bays in existing car parks, but only three would fit the ‘french’ description of Aire. Given the size and relatively linear shape of the district service points would  only be built into three car parks one at the North end, one at the south and one at the mid point, which would be more than adequate provision over a distance of maybe thirty miles. However nine stop over locations would have provide perhaps forty five spots.

Davy


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## trevskoda (Jul 3, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> The North Down and Ards council area who I lobbied, (some of you will remember completing their survey some time back) were (are) hoping to provide nine locations throughout their area. Six would simply be bays in existing car parks, but only three would fit the ‘french’ description of Aire. Given the size and relatively linear shape of the district service points would  only be built into three car parks one at the North end, one at the south and one at the mid point, which would be more than adequate provision over a distance of maybe thirty miles. However nine stop over locations would have provide perhaps forty five spots.
> 
> Davy


Car park behind exploris would be good apart from some bits on a slope.


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## barge1914 (Jul 3, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> The North Down and Ards council area who I lobbied, (some of you will remember completing their survey some time back) were (are) hoping to provide nine locations throughout their area. Six would simply be bays in existing car parks, but only three would fit the ‘french’ description of Aire. Given the size and relatively linear shape of the district service points would  only be built into three car parks one at the North end, one at the south and one at the mid point, which would be more than adequate provision over a distance of maybe thirty miles. However nine stop over locations would have provide perhaps forty five spots.
> 
> Davy


Any idea on current status? Is it still waiting council approval, at risk of being derailed? or approved pending funding or implementation!


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## TeamRienza (Jul 3, 2020)

Trev. The exploris was one of the potential sites and would have had services.

Davy


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## TeamRienza (Jul 3, 2020)

Barge1914,

The council were taken to court by a local caravan site owner on the grounds that councils should not be providing free facilities! The action stalled as the court wanted to wait for the ongoing update of the caravan act, which really bears no relevance since it is primarily legislation for static sites. The collapse of the Stormont assembly put everything on hold, and of course just when they got back together the pandemic struck. I had intended to start lobbying again but all on hold. The last indications of the council were that they were keen and could see the benefit.
I also took action in my home town after the council erected barriers on the seafront carparks. A rearguard action but we now have 4 bays in another pretty central car park (but shared with cars, bit like France) and prior to the lockdown we were looking at another location (now on hold).
I shall reply to your pm shortly.

Davy


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## barge1914 (Jul 3, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> Barge1914,
> 
> The council were taken to court by a local caravan site owner on the grounds that councils should not be providing free facilities! The action stalled as the court wanted to wait for the ongoing update of the caravan act, which really bears no relevance since it is primarily legislation for static sites. The collapse of the Stormont assembly put everything on hold, and of course just when they got back together the pandemic struck. I had intended to start lobbying again but all on hold. The last indications of the council were that they were keen and could see the benefit.
> I also took action in my home town after the council erected barriers on the seafront carparks. A rearguard action but we now have 4 bays in another pretty central car park (but shared with cars, bit like France) and prior to the lockdown we were looking at another location (now on hold).
> ...


Thank you!


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## Fisherman (Jul 3, 2020)

TeamRienza said:


> Barge1914,
> 
> The council were taken to court by a local caravan site owner on the grounds that councils should not be providing free facilities! The action stalled as the court wanted to wait for the ongoing update of the caravan act, which really bears no relevance since it is primarily legislation for static sites. The collapse of the Stormont assembly put everything on hold, and of course just when they got back together the pandemic struck. I had intended to start lobbying again but all on hold. The last indications of the council were that they were keen and could see the benefit.
> I also took action in my home town after the council erected barriers on the seafront carparks. A rearguard action but we now have 4 bays in another pretty central car park (but shared with cars, bit like France) and prior to the lockdown we were looking at another location (now on hold).
> ...




Just a thought but if caravan site owners wish to prevent us from wild camping then why don’t the members of any future organisation boycott the campsites. Go to any campsite and you will see a fair number of Motorhomes. We were at  Rowntree Park in York last December and Motorhomes outnumbered caravans.
We have to
Hopefully if we get organised we would blacklist such sites.
That way they may prevent facilities being made available but lose out on our business. The continent is awash with full campsites, regardless of the thousands of airs and stop overs that are available.


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## fiona b (Jul 5, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Thanks to following a link someone kindly posted I've found myself a member of this. Its being lead by quite a dedicated bunch of folks who are happy to spend their time pursuing this campaign despite the cynicism of many in the motorhome community and the evident opposition or sheer disinterest of many in the local corridors of power. Nevertheless things are stirring and I learnt of a lot more authorities showing some more enlightened thinking, and a few already establishing motorhome overnight parking facilities. There will be a dire need in the wake of Covid to establish facilities for water and waste in some parts of the country, and if this does't get addressed we Wildcampers will be in the front line of a lot of local ire and hostility trying to empty our cassettes in bogs that people are trying to keep Covid free. Then of course we need to reverse the continual erosion of places to stay, and to create more. A lot to be done! Somehow thanks to my letter to Whitby arriving and circulating as a proforma long before I got there in person I seem ,with some bemusement, to be elected to the leadership team...hopefully not a poisoned chalice! Anyway, the purpose of this post is to encourage as many people as possible to join our Facebook  group, we need now to greatly increase our media presence. So PRETTY PLEASE, follow this link and subscribe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi
Would like to join this but not member of Facebook and don't wish to be. Also Facebook campaign will not be taken seriously. We need to be seen as official group. I would be happy to pay more for.my wild camping membership if it could fund someone to be a full time spokesperson for us. As the person said on the recent post on Glencoe community council, we need to fight back.


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## Biggarmac (Jul 5, 2020)

fiona b said:


> Hi
> Would like to join this but not member of Facebook and don't wish to be. Also Facebook campaign will not be taken seriously. We need to be seen as official group. I would be happy to pay more for.my wild camping membership if it could fund someone to be a full time spokesperson for us. As the person said on the recent post on Glencoe community council, we need to fight back.


There is a website being built.  It is not just a facebook campaign.  An amazing amout of work is going on behind the scenes.  This only took off in the last couple of weeks.


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## Asterix (Jul 5, 2020)

Here's a letter to the editor that just popped up in my news feed,don't know if it's a WC member...









						Letters: Communities should look at ways of cashing in on campervans, not banning them
					

WITH easing of lockdown this coming weekend it’s likely that Scotland will see an influx of tourists, a fact that will be greatly welcomed by our…




					www.heraldscotland.com


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## Biggarmac (Jul 5, 2020)

Asterix said:


> Here's a letter to the editor that just popped up in my news feed,don't know if it's a WC member...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cameron McNeish is a well known figure in the Scottish outdoor and adventure community.  His blogs are worth watching.


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## fiona b (Jul 5, 2020)

fiona b said:


> Hi
> Would like to join this but not member of Facebook and don't wish to be. Also Facebook campaign will not be taken seriously. We need to be seen as official group. I would be happy to pay more for.my wild camping membership if it could fund someone to be a full time spokesperson for us. As the person said on the recent post on Glencoe community council, we need to fight back.


Hi
Didn't realise that, thanks for letting me know. Will keep an eye on that. Great letter in the herald


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## sandya (Jul 5, 2020)

Have just joined the more of us the better


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## Robmac (Jul 6, 2020)

Millie Master said:


> I joined and then having read through several posts and indeed the replies from a goodly number of brainless idiots I have now left!



I also joined, thought about it for a while and left again.


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## robell (Jul 6, 2020)

Joined last week


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## Flatcap (Jul 7, 2020)

Joined and spread the word! Thanks for the template letter too as this will be posted off to my local authorities.


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## Deleted member 84929 (Jan 25, 2021)

I’ve joined, you do not have to have a Facebook page now. They have a website and very recently a forum.


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## antiquesam (Jan 25, 2021)

I too found there was a lot of people talking drivel on the Facebook Group and when I questioned their comments I got thrown out. Presumably the "Leadership" only want positive comments.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 25, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I too found there was a lot of people talking drivel on the Facebook Group and when I questioned their comments I got thrown out. Presumably the "Leadership" only want positive comments.


As part of the leadership group we do try and keep the group on topic.  If you were just having a go at other people you post would be refused.  It takes more than that to be "thrown out"  Campra is a Campaign not a talking shop.  One man's drivel is another's important point.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 25, 2021)

Hazel said:


> I’ve joined, you do not have to have a Facebook page now. They have a website and very recently a forum.


On facebook important posts get lost, but as you know from here, it will be easier to follow the campaigns that are happening on the forum.  www.campra.org.uk if you want to be part of campaigning for better facilities for motorcaravans.


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## antiquesam (Jan 25, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> As part of the leadership group we do try and keep the group on topic.  If you were just having a go at other people you post would be refused.  It takes more than that to be "thrown out"  Campra is a Campaign not a talking shop.  One man's drivel is another's important point.


I was told by Barge 1914 that I got inadvertently swept up in a clean out. My comments related to someone suggesting that motorway services were good value. I said they were noisy, smelly and extremely expensive. I also said that my idea of an Aire was an in town space to overnight and not a car park in a Forestry Commission car park that I can use now. I, as always, was polite but obviously not positive enough for the leadership. I really do object to you making an assumption that I'm some evil monster set to destroy your campaign.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 25, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I was told by Barge 1914 that I got inadvertently swept up in a clean out. My comments related to someone suggesting that motorway services were good value. I said they were noisy, smelly and extremely expensive. I also said that my idea of an Aire was an in town space to overnight and not a car park in a Forestry Commission car park that I can use now. I, as always, was polite but obviously not positive enough for the leadership. I really do object to you making an assumption that I'm some evil monster set to destroy your campaign.


I made no such assumption.  I said "If you were just...."  If you were not then that does not apply.  I defer to Barge 1914 as he does much more on this than me.  Your comments do just show that we all have different ideas about what constitutes a good place to stop.  Variety is the spice of life.


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## antiquesam (Jan 25, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> I made no such assumption.  I said "If you were just...."  If you were not then that does not apply.  I defer to Barge 1914 as he does much more on this than me.  Your comments do just show that we all have different ideas about what constitutes a good place to stop.  Variety is the spice of life.


I really don't want to dwell on this but " It takes more than this to get thrown out" really does imply that you feel I have done something terrible and that Campra can do no wrong. My final word. Promise.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 25, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I really don't want to dwell on this but " It takes more than this to get thrown out" really does imply that you feel I have done something terrible and that Campra can do no wrong. My final word. Promise.


My apologies for offending you with my comments.  There is no organisation on earth that can do no wrong.  lets hope we can all get back to travelling around instead of typing soon.


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## Fisherman (Jan 25, 2021)

I have read through this thread with great interest.
This subject being very close to my heart.

For me you either believe in what this group are doing or you don’t.

I have read comments about travellers taking over these new aires that are being proposed, stating that due to this possibility we should not have aires. I find comments like this to be negative and when you consider that many carparks are available to travellers and the incidence of their abuse being rare that argument simply does not stack up. Also if we applied the same logic to other things we have done to accommodate other groups,  then nothing would ever get done. If we allow ourselves to be dictated to by the illegal actions of others, then they have won. But as I say I reckon this problem is being exaggerated.

I also note that some feel that we should remain almost clandestine, keep our heads down, don’t get noticed, things are ok, you will only make things worse.
Well sorry but I simply cannot subscribe to this way of thinking.
The simple fact is each year we lose pois, some that we had used for years.
And each year thousands of new vans are being registered, with obvious consequences, and consequences need action not inaction, or the consequences will only get worse, in turn making things more difficult for us all. And I mean us all.

Other groups such as cyclists, hill walkers, anglers, etc they all fought for what they now enjoy. They organised themselves made their presence known, highlighted the benefits they offered not only for themselves, but for society as a whole. I reckon we are were they used to be, and our journey is in its infancy, but Covid may have accelerated what I believe is inevitable. That things simply have to change the status quo is not an option.

Like any pastime you can mention it’s frequented by varying needs and varying opinions, to my way of thinking that has to be healthy. But only if each group attempts to realise that their group does not have carte Blanche to run rough shod over other groups. We have all types on here, from those who prefer rural locations, to those that prefer cities and more urban locations. Those who I admire who travel abroad to Europe, and even North Africa and beyond, to those who don't travel outside their own country. We have folk who love large A class motorhomes to those who much prefer small campers. I honestly believe that CAMPRA offer a possible solution to a problem not of our making, but due to ignorance and intolerance of others out-with, and sadly within our pastime. And that as they have all of these types within their number they then represent each and every type within our pastime.

When you consider the rights and wrongs of CAMPRA we should try to take a larger more diverse picture, try not to be exclusive with our views, but instead inclusive of what CAMPRA has to offer for us all. After all CAMPRA is merely a microcosm of us, with varying views and requirements to facilitate what we all enjoy. They should not be perceived as the other side, the enemy who will make matters worse, but merely as an organisation frequented by us for us all, no matter what our preferences are, and how we perceive our own individual requirements. 

I will step down from my soapbox now, and head for the kettle, a coffee and a good read. Thanks for reading this post, and bring on 2021 and our new travels.


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## mikejay (Jan 26, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I was told by Barge 1914 that I got inadvertently swept up in a clean out. My comments related to someone suggesting that motorway services were good value. I said they were noisy, smelly and extremely expensive. I also said that my idea of an Aire was an in town space to overnight and not a car park in a Forestry Commission car park that I can use now. I, as always, was polite but obviously not positive enough for the leadership. I really do object to you making an assumption that I'm some evil monster set to destroy your campaign.



At least you got told why they booted you out when I joined I posted helpful comments and some reviews on aires that had been setup by local councils. And helped a few people with directions then boom I post a pic of a council aire being abused and that's it I got booted and blocked

Mike


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## antiquesam (Jan 26, 2021)

mikejay said:


> At least you got told why they booted you out when I joined I posted helpful comments and some reviews on aires that had been setup by local councils. And helped a few people with directions then boom I post a pic of a council aire being abused and that's it I got booted and blocked
> 
> Mike


What do they say? Power corrupts, if your that way inclined.


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## Fisherman (Jan 26, 2021)

mikejay said:


> At least you got told why they booted you out when I joined I posted helpful comments and some reviews on aires that had been setup by local councils. And helped a few people with directions then boom I post a pic of a council aire being abused and that's it I got booted and blocked
> 
> Mike



The way I look at this is. There are the aims of CAMPRA and those who are running it. From what you and Sam have posted generally speaking you agree with their aims but not how you and others who gave honest opinions have been treated.

CAMPRA have to realise that although there is much ignorance out there with regards to us, equally there are those amongst who are simply selfish idiots who do us much harm. Education is not only required from out with our numbers but from within our numbers. They also have to accept that one mans idea of what wild camping is will vary from another’s, and opinions on what is required will vary.

IE, I personally think their name is wrong. It suggests that primarily what we need are aires. I don’t agree. There are literarily thousands of car parks lying empty all over the country at night, and the vast majority are not full during daytime. We are simply road users who instead of parking for a short period wish to park for 24-48 hours. it would be great if a few had facilities for us to empty our cassettes and fill our water tanks, for which we would pay a set fee. So instead of building aires that in most cases we don’t need, simply treat us as motorists with slightly larger vehicles, and save ourselves a fortune having to build aires. But obviously there are situations and places were air type spaces are required. That’s my view, but I respect that others won’t agree.

For CAMPRA to succeed they have to learn not only to embrace differing views, but also be prepared to accept constructive criticism. If those in charge don’t embrace these basic principles, they will create division and intolerance, and this will only do harm to theirs and our cause.

What was done to you and Sam was wrong, and they better learn and fast.
Being blinkered serves no one, disenfranchising those who support their cause is counter productive.


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## jagmanx (Jan 26, 2021)

I too got "booted out" by suggesting it was counter-productive to bombard councils/tourist officers with standard letters simply copied and pasted.
Ah well. Theit ides are sound but they need to wise-up !There web-site presence is better than an FB presence !
Every little helps ! yes but not always.
Emails need to be carefully worded and not set off by being critical and/or demanding.


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## Millie Master (Jan 26, 2021)

As I know from moderating on several groups on Facebook there are a significant number of ways to get the job done well and there are those who have a high handed way of naffing off almost all of those who would like to participate and all because of them even being able to accept even the slightest amount of criticism!  By the way, I resigned almost as soon as I had joined and long before I could ever have been booted off.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 27, 2021)

As one of the leadership team on Campra thanks for all your comments.  There are a group of us with moderator powers.  We are all trying to keep the group as a campaigning group, not a chat group.  Some posts which you might think are relevant the moderator who picks it up may not.
The facebook page and the website are being looked at by councils and other outside bodies as the letters sent by members are having an effect.  We are now being contacted by councils and companies asking how they can make sure that they have facilities for the surge of staystationers when lockdown is eased.  You would be amazed how many think our main requirement is EHU.  We are asking for waste points and overnight parking. 
I have only booted one person off as they were trying to sell bitcoins.  I have refused quite a few posts when they are just chatting.
Tin hat on


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## antiquesam (Jan 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> As one of the leadership team on Campra thanks for all your comments.  There are a group of us with moderator powers.  We are all trying to keep the group as a campaigning group, not a chat group.  Some posts which you might think are relevant the moderator who picks it up may not.
> The facebook page and the website are being looked at by councils and other outside bodies as the letters sent by members are having an effect.  We are now being contacted by councils and companies asking how they can make sure that they have facilities for the surge of staystationers when lockdown is eased.  You would be amazed how many think our main requirement is EHU.  We are asking for waste points and overnight parking.
> I have only booted one person off as they were trying to sell bitcoins.  I have refused quite a few posts when they are just chatting.
> Tin hat on


Perhaps a consolidated view by moderators may be in order. My denunciation was right at the start. We might not always agree with the moderator on here but at least he is consistent.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 27, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> Perhaps a consolidated view by moderators may be in order. My denunciation was right at the start. We might not always agree with the moderator on here but at least he is consistent.


It is much easier to have a consolidated view when there is only one or two moderators.  We are encouraging our members to move over to the website and forum.


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## Fisherman (Jan 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> It is much easier to have a consolidated view when there is only one or two moderators.  We are encouraging our members to move over to the website and forum.



What’s vital is you don’t disenfranchise those who support CAMPRA.
There will be varying opinions, ideas, demands and expectations.
Now I know they cannot all be met, but they all must be given an ear.

I read on here one reason for leaving are some of the posts are extreme.
Well some of the posts on here are likewise, maybe some reckon my posts are the same. But we still remain members.

I hope that one day our kids and our grand kids won’t need CAMPRA. And they will benefit from what CAMPRA are trying to achieve today. And CAMPRA will have evolved into something more relevant to their time, for their needs.


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## Biggarmac (Jan 27, 2021)

Fisherman said:


> What’s vital is you don’t disenfranchise those who support CAMPRA.
> There will be varying opinions, ideas, demands and expectations.
> Now I know they cannot all be met, but they all must be given an ear.
> 
> ...


Sometimes the posts are not accepted as they are repeating links which were posted a couple of days before.  This is a problem with facebook as the posts seem to go missing and people don't realise that the same thing has been put on by another member.  This is one of the reasons for using the website more.


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## antiquesam (Jan 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> Sometimes the posts are not accepted as they are repeating links which were posted a couple of days before.  This is a problem with facebook as the posts seem to go missing and people don't realise that the same thing has been put on by another member.  This is one of the reasons for using the website more.


I think you may be scratching around for explanations to justify decisions made by others over which you have no knowledge. Anyone on this forum is likely to support your dream, but to alienate them for giving an opinion on someone else's suggestion or describing their concept of an Aire won't encourage support.


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## mariesnowgoose (Jan 27, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I think you may be scratching around for explanations to justify decisions made by others over which you have no knowledge. Anyone on this forum is likely to support your dream, but to alienate them for giving an opinion on someone else's suggestion or describing their concept of an Aire won't encourage support.



Quite right, but Meg is only one moderator and just happens to be a member in here too.
She can't be held responsible for other moderators unilateral decisions.

Just sayin'.


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## antiquesam (Jan 27, 2021)

mariesnowgoose said:


> Quite right, but Meg is only one moderator and just happens to be a member in here too.
> She can't be held responsible for other moderators unilateral decisions.
> 
> Just sayin'.


I quite agree, which means it probably isn't wise to speculate.


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## antiquesam (Jan 27, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> Sometimes the posts are not accepted as they are repeating links which were posted a couple of days before.


I should point out that it isn't just posts that aren't accepted it is people being blocked from posting at all. Black balled by one person who doesn't agree with your views.


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## mikejay (Jan 27, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I should point out that it isn't just posts that aren't accepted it is people being blocked from posting at all. Black balled by one person who doesn't agree with your views.


Yes it was not my posts being blocked I got kicked completely and even blocked from seeing the page in searches on facebook no warning no explanation think I lasted 3days. It was when the page was fairly new so I initially thought the whole page had gone. Until I got my wife to do a search for it on facebook.

Mike


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## mistericeman (Jan 27, 2021)

It's all starting to sound a bit cliquey and like some one make car clubs I could mention... 

Makes me all the keener to give it a swerve.... And to be honest IF I had joined I think I'd have been heading for exit stage left reading on here.


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## Fisherman (Jan 28, 2021)

Biggarmac said:


> As one of the leadership team on Campra thanks for all your comments.  There are a group of us with moderator powers.  We are all trying to keep the group as a campaigning group, not a chat group.  Some posts which you might think are relevant the moderator who picks it up may not.
> The facebook page and the website are being looked at by councils and other outside bodies as the letters sent by members are having an effect.  We are now being contacted by councils and companies asking how they can make sure that they have facilities for the surge of staystationers when lockdown is eased.  You would be amazed how many think our main requirement is EHU.  We are asking for waste points and overnight parking.
> I have only booted one person off as they were trying to sell bitcoins.  I have refused quite a few posts when they are just chatting.
> Tin hat on



This all sounds encouraging, hopefully things will improve benefiting us all.
All the best with all of this, and many thanks for all you and others are doing.


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## Nabsim (Jan 28, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I think you may be scratching around for explanations to justify decisions made by others over which you have no knowledge. Anyone on this forum is likely to support your dream, but to alienate them for giving an opinion on someone else's suggestion or describing their concept of an Aire won't encourage support.


I don’t use this group at all but will say one of my major gripes is the way posts vanish. I will go to check notifications and no message there. I have to use name search in the group to find the post and even this sometimes fails. I could see Megs point being very valid.
No views on anything else in any way, just the Facebook post bit


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## antiquesam (Jan 28, 2021)

Nabsim said:


> I don’t use this group at all but will say one of my major gripes is the way posts vanish. I will go to check notifications and no message there. I have to use name search in the group to find the post and even this sometimes fails. I could see Megs point being very valid.
> No views on anything else in any way, just the Facebook post bit


I can understand a post being deleted, God knows it happens often enough to me on this forum, but to just bar you and give no explanation is not only rude but counter productive because it automatically alienates a supporter to your cause. 
Everyone on this forum has, I hope, some experience in camping off site and can surely contribute advice and help, but if they disagree with, for example, a comment that motorway services are good, inexpensive overnight spots and point out the shortfalls then it is self defeating.


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## Nabsim (Jan 28, 2021)

antiquesam said:


> I can understand a post being deleted, God knows it happens often enough to me on this forum, but to just bar you and give no explanation is not only rude but counter productive because it automatically alienates a supporter to your cause.
> Everyone on this forum has, I hope, some experience in camping off site and can surely contribute advice and help, but if they disagree with, for example, a comment that motorway services are good, inexpensive overnight spots and point out the shortfalls then it is self defeating.


Sorry Sam it was just his Facebook works, or doesn’t in my case I was commenting on. I haven’t visited the site/group in question. I agree getting a post deleted or moderated even can be annoying. If it is a strictly controlled group it should make clear what is allowed. I don’t know if this one does or not.
I find these days I don’t care if people like my views or not. If I see something I want to comment in I do but normally i don’t  bother. I find that preferable to rising blood pressure 
That’s no good for a campaigning site


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## mr. badolki (Jan 31, 2021)

barge1914 said:


> Looking at the locations of all CAMpRA members, as much as we could use more members everywhere, given the recent adverse stirrings from the lady in Glencoe I can see there's a crying need for more of our Scottish Wildcampers to join CAMpRA.


I'm a bit late to the party but have now joined the group and will be composing a letter to the local council (copy to my MP) suggesting they consider the benefits of aires in such a historic location as our town (Paisley).


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## Deleted member 74229 (Jan 31, 2021)

I joined CAMpRA last summer when the stopover situation was ridiculously restricted. We managed six weeks in France without any problems, and enjoyed motorhome touring is meant to be, rather than sat on a camping site for weeks like caravanners.
And now I’m on the Leader Group, helping by writing to the local media and holding interviews on the radio and having articles published in travel magazines... 
There is a lot going on behind the scenes, and real progress is being made, with councils listening to us. Visit Britain with its 70 destinations is now alerted to the Staycation Madness the news stories are putting on their front pages. Motorhome Tourism is now being recognised as a valuable untapped tourist source, and our ‘Strategy For Motorhome Tourism In The UK’ plan is being referred to as the way to go.
We have been working on Motorhome tourist routes that are being supported by councils nationwide, and aire type stopovers are being considered at places along the route, like sporting clubs, garden centres, village halls and other organisations’ large parking areas.
And CAMpRA is looking at setting up Service Points in towns and villages to add more options to those at campsites, seeing they are not coping with the increased demand from motorhomers. We hope garages, carwash sites mayget on board.
The latest figures show that 33,170 new Motorhome registrations were made in 12 weeks between July and September, so there really is a boom, and a need to avoid Motorhome mayhem this summer.
You can help by using letters in the website files to email to your local authorities and media to make it all easier for us in the future. Previous efforts have failed, but this time a different approach is working.


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## Deleted member 74229 (Jan 31, 2021)

Penny13 said:


> I can’t join as not on FB but I have had a look at the web page. WC in just the few years we have been doing it is getting harder. We have suggested to our boss that he runs a few pitches at Aire prices maybe run it by him again.



Hi. CAMpRA is here too now www.CAMpRA.org.uk


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## Biggarmac (Jan 31, 2021)

You may have seen several posts mentioning CAMpRA, we do hear that some motorcaravan owners think that CAMpRA are trying to turn all our off grid places into paid Aires 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Can I assure members that this is NOT TRUE.
Campra is promoting the need for waste and water points to support our 386,000 UK motorcaravans, we are also encouraging councils and tourism bodies to embrace the motorcaravans and to provide safe places to park close to towns and tourist attractions.
Both of these measures will reduce the load on our remote off grid places, it will prevent overcrowding and the resulting complaints.
Waste points will allow us to tour more freely and where these support local villages and businesses will make us more welcome.
If you check out our forum you will see that there is a tremendous amount of activity in Scotland.
CAMpRA is engaging with several councils and tourism bodies who are supporting our ideas and actively looking at ways to provide facilities.
Most of these conversations are confidential at the moment so we cannot share specific detail but huge breakthrough has got to be that they are now coming to us, we are getting councils, National Park and tourism bodies approaching CAMpRA for advise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






If you have not downloaded and read our motorcaravan tourism strategy document I would suggest that you do.
All of our documents are free to download and use, in a conversation last week we were asked if Scottish authorities included government could use the CAMpRA website as a source of information on Aires in the UK.
So we are NOT AGAINST off grid parking, we are for ALL motorcaravan owners in the UK and we need you all to get behind us, join our campaign and show the UK that Scotland is leading the way in embracing the touring motorcaravan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






www.campra.org.uk


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