# Benefit cuts proposed.



## vindiboy (Jun 25, 2012)

Dave is on about more cuts to welfare benefits again, I am anti Tory,but have to agree with him that benefits such as Housing allowance to under 25 s who have gotten themselves Pregnant and obtained housing benefits on the strength of that deserve to  have the benefits removed,a couple saving to buy a home and acting responsibly get no help at all,that can't be fair, people who won't take a job after 2 years on the dole are also targets, good I say ,why should we keep the layabouts, no jobs to be had I hear you say, there are lots of jobs available here in the South but the  youngsters won't take them as they can get the same  money in benefits it seems.
Larger Families  [ more than 3  Children ] face losing Child benefit for the 4 th and subsequent Child, good I say , if you want a larger Family keep it yourself. Not popular Policies or oppinion I am sure but this is the real World.


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## Bigpeetee (Jun 25, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Dave is on about more cuts to welfare benefits again, I am anti Tory,but have to agree with him that benefits such as Housing allowance to under 25 s who have gotten themselves Pregnant and obtained housing benefits on the strength of that deserve to  have the benefits removed,a couple saving to buy a home and acting responsibly get no help at all,that can't be fair, people who won't take a job after 2 years on the dole are also targets, good I say ,why should we keep the layabouts, no jobs to be had I hear you say, there are lots of jobs available here in the South but the  youngsters won't take them as they can get the same  money in benefits it seems.
> Larger Families  [ more than 3  Children ] face losing Child benefit for the 4 th and subsequent Child, good I say , if you want a larger Family keep it yourself. Not popular Policies or oppinion I am sure but this is the real World.



Sadly giving sex education in schools has failed, or certainly the bit after when precautions are discussed. We seem to be wasting good public money as this part of education seems to be ignored.

The number of girls getting pregnant without a serious partner is incredible, then for the state to look after them because of their own choice of unprotected sex. It's your choice, you have to be responsible for your actions and don't expect others to do it for you.

Sadly, this is a generation who in many ways expect it all to be given them on a plate.

Yes, parents have to take a share of the blame as the word NO seems to be lacking in their vocabulary, especialy when it comes to pester power. 

I see very young girls wheeling their latest must have toy (baby) in an expensive pram, talking incessantly on the top of the range mobile phone and smoking. Where do they get their money from??.

They MUST have a big LCD TV with Sky+ as they get Soooooooo bored, but even the furniture isn't that bad.

I got married young at 20 and had children by the age of 21 and we struggled to get them a good home, education and travel, and to do it we scrimped & scraped. A colour TV was a luxury!! (we didn't get one for quite a few years). But sadly expectations are so high and they get given so much that if I was in the same situation, I would think twice about working!!

Also, there are many instances of a girl claiming to live on her own, but had a live in boyfriend who claims to live at home with his parents. They both get benefits that add up to more than if they lived as a couple AND in many cases, they "Do a bit on the side" because they can't live on the dole money, can they!!

I realise that this scenario doesn't apply to everyone, but look around and see how many it does.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 25, 2012)

I am a qualified and experienced youth worker who was forced out of youth work about 12 years ago when the govt of the day decided to abolish the youth service and instead put money into Connexions (careers advice for young people). As a result, many youth centres, groups and projects across the country lost their funding, and the young people with whom they worked, providing informal "citizenship", welfare support and a safe alternative to hanging round the streets at night, lost out. A generation on, and society wonders why teenagers hang round bus stops, spar shops etc at night - and condemn them for being what they are - young people who want to spend time together, play music, expend energy, and socialise. The message that successive governments have given young people is, by cutting services which were specifically targeted at them, that they don't matter, they are not important. 

For 3 years I worked in a young person's sexual health clinic as an outreach worker and education worker. This involved working in schools, colleges, youth clubs (before they closed) and hanging round bus stops etc at night, talking to young people about safe sex, self-esteem, personal relationships, drugs, alcohol and various other issues about which, other than from parents and teachers, young people had no other objective, impartial and factually correct form of advice or support. During the course of those 3 years I came across many young women who were in temporary accomodation in the YWCA, or local Nightstop and who were pregnant. These young women were as young as 16 but for various reasons they were no longer able to live at home in the parental house (assuming that there was such a thing which was not always the case). They were often what people would call "disadvantaged" or "disaffected" in that as a result of far from ideal family circumstances, they did not perform well at school, did not get any support from any adult source and had little or no formal education or adult support and guidance. In many cases, these young people had had such a raw deal from life that their self-esteem was very low. For young women with low self-esteem, the ability to reject any form of attention (including inappropriate sexual attention) and to resist peer pressure, or the ability to insist on contraception, or the ability to maintain a regular daily routine of taking the pill, or the ability to access emergency contraception was very difficult if not impossible. Their priority each day was to ensure that they had somewhere to stay that night. From the work that I did with such young people, I became very aware of the very low understanding of the true facts about sex, contraception and risk - the majority of their knowledge came from peers and teenage magazines. 

When such a young woman became pregnant, they often buried their head in the sand and ignored it for as long as possible. By the time they came to the centre where I worked for a pregnancy test, they were often too advanced to have any alternatives than to continue with the pregnancy but not being registered with a GP or having no permanent address meant that they could not access normal ante-natal services. I worked closely with the local midwifery unit to develop a new role of teenage pregnancy midwife to work specifically with such young women, and developed support for them in terms of social welfare. 

In all the time I worked with such young women, I never once came across one who had deliberately got pregnant to obtain housing or benefits. I often suspected that a certain young woman may have been careless about contraception because they actually wanted a child (and that is a perfectly valid reason, many older people do the same thing in similar circumstances but are rarely prejudiced in the same way) - and with backgrounds which included little or no love and affection and attention, a baby offered them unconditional love, a basic human need in all of us. 

At the time (and this was around 2000), even then it was very difficult for young people to obtain independent housing - private landlords required a month's rent as deposit and a month's rent in advance, often the best part of £1k. As for council housing, the council were only legally obliged to offer accomodation if a pregnant young woman was at risk (and although they often were, the young women didn't always see themselves as being at risk), or under 18 or homeless. Regular emergency accommodation at the various hostels put them lower down the priority pile, pregnant or not. Many young women returned to the YWCA "mother and baby" unit as there was no other accomodation for them, it got them off the streets but was far from ideal and there was a waiting list. Very few were able to get council housing. At the time, a new initiative was being developed, known as Foyers, which were essentially to provide accomodation and support to vulnerable young people, but places were limited and there was a waiting list for those too. 

The young people I worked with were very aware that pregnant or not, they would still struggle to find independent accomodation and had little expectation other than continuing to live at Night shelters or on friend's floors, or in the bed of whoever offered. 

In the 3 years that I was in the job (and it was a lottery funded job as the public sector did not recognise the need for such work, and at the end of the grant period, continuation funding was not available and so the job folded, and I had to look for work elsewhere), we waited for the govt's Teenage Pregnancy Strategy to be released. It was due not long after I started in the job, and still hadn't been published by the time I left. If it had been, my work could well have continued as there would have been funding to continue it. The message from the govt yet again is that the welfare of young people was not a priority. But they were an easy target to demonise.

In light of continued cutbacks and benefit restrictions over the past decade, I have no doubt that it is harder than ever for young people to obtain independent housing, and this generation of teenagers will have grown up knowing that, so I can not in all honesty imagine that young women in great numbers are deliberately becoming pregnant in order to be socially housed. 

And I haven't yet discussed the role of the young men (or indeed the older men who took advantage of vulnerable young women) - equal responsibility for the prevention of unwanted pregnancy has to be given to the man, but there is no national campaign to demonise such young men for their behaviour. 

I firmly believe that everyone has the right to their own opinions but, particularly when I hear opinions which are based on incorrect information, I feel that I have to give the true facts (true in my eyes from my experience) and challenge misconceptions and inaccuracies.


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## donkey too (Jun 25, 2012)

basildog said:


> Also what about kids who no longer have parents ? or the ones who have grown up in childrens homes or the care system where would they go until they reached 25 ?
> I have to be honest I really see a major problem in 20 to 30 years as the working population is getting smaller and the retired and non working population is growing ?
> It may well be that work houses or euthanasia will really be on the agenda in years to come !



I could recomend a few people for both :lol-053::lol-053:


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 25, 2012)

basildog said:


> Also what about kids who no longer have parents ? or the ones who have grown up in childrens homes or the care system where would they go until they reached 25 ?
> I have to be honest I really see a major problem in 20 to 30 years as the working population is getting smaller and the retired and non working population is growing ?



I agree. Without a partner, or kids, and not much of a pension, I'm going to be dependent on the state. 



basildog said:


> It may well be that work houses or euthanasia will really be on the agenda in years to come !


 :scared:

Having seen the devastating effects of a parent displaying symptoms of dementia on the family, and knowing that this is the calm before the storm and that it is going to become very very unpleasant and difficult, and that my mum is likely to lose her house and savings (luckily she will not be aware that despite having made a will to leave what she has struggled and sacrificed for,  for her children and grandchildren, she will likely end up leaving them nothing), I give permission for someone to shoot me once I've lost my marbles 

Although, that said, the naughty side of me says, let me live long enough to be a burden on the politicians


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## vindiboy (Jun 25, 2012)

Well The Tower Blocks in Southampton are teeming with un married couples and single Mothers with several Children, none of them appear to work, lots are Pregnant again,most smoke, [ very cheap habit that ] and we are all paying for their pleasures, I still think it is time a major shake up of the system is overdue, we cannot afford to keep it as it is.If the money in the pot went to those in our society that  you talk about who genuinely needed help because they are incapable of self support, there would be more money available for them, it is the ner do wells and scroungers we want shot of.[ From the benefits system ].


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## canalwheeler (Jun 25, 2012)

Part of the problem is, we are now getting the second generation of single mothers i.e. those born of single mothers, booted out in their young teens so Mum can at last get a life (she'll only be about 32 herself). They don't know any other kind of life but the one their parent showed them.

So, what's the answer? Compulsory birth pill from the age of 14?

By taking away their housing benefit DC is just going to boot them out on to the street. Tragically, we would then have an increase in abandoned babies.

No, the real reason for taking away housing benefit for under 25s is cost saving so our government can spend our money on fighting someone else's wars.

Tone
(Gently climbing down from soap box and high horse simultaneously)


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## vindiboy (Jun 25, 2012)

No , taking away their  Housing benefit will force them into paid employment and send a clear message to the up and coming scroungers that there is no money available to them  and make them more responsible.They may have to work [terrible ] for the same amount of money paid to them in benefits but it won't be coming from the Tax payer, what is wrong with that ?


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## canalwheeler (Jun 25, 2012)

I was specifically talking about young single mothers. How are you going to force them into employment that would pay enough to put the child into daycare? If they have to work (if indeed there is any) you'll get a growth in the unofficial child minder market, and that is dangerous. 

No, the real problem is the pregnancies. Stop them getting pregnant. Then yes, they could work, if anyone would employ them.

Tone


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 25, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Well The Tower Blocks in Southampton are teeming with un married couples and single Mothers with several Children, none of them appear to work, lots are Pregnant again,most smoke, [ very cheap habit that ] and we are all paying for their pleasures,



Sorry Vindiboy but I feel that this is a huge generalisation and prejudgement. I think it is wrong to prejudge a couple for not being married and a single parent for having several children. This is the kind of rhetoric that the media portrays and which results in mass castigation of good honest people who have less life opportunities than others. I wonder what the stats would show if a survey was done to assess pregnancy and / or smoking rates, they may well be higher as unwanted pregnancy and smoking is associated with deprivation and poverty somewhat ironically. It is very easy to see a certain type of person out and about in a certain area and to assume that they are representative of their neighbourhood. There are probably many other people in those flats in completely different circumstances who aren't as visible as others, such as older people who don't go out much and are therefore invisible to society. 

I think the key word is "appear" - it is very easy to judge someone negatively in a snapshot circumstance - a couple of young teenage mothers may meet up once a week to get the bus together to their support group and health visitor session and this could be the only time they have any meaningful and positive social interaction, but seeing 3 young mums with buggies getting on a bus, talking and laughing together, is likely to be seen as them going off to enjoy themselves at the tax payers expense.

And it is hardly surprising that those who have no choice about where they live but who have to accept whatever they are offered and be grateful for it, end up living in the kind of residences that no-one would willingly choose - in the past this is how ghetto-ised pockets of social classes developed, whether it was racial or age or class based. In recent years, there seems to have been a change in policy in that different "types" of people are moved into social housing neighbourhoods, mixing older folk with younger people and incorporating those from different cultures. It will take time for this to have an impact as those in social housing know how lucky they are to have it and tend to be long term tenants. 



vindiboy said:


> I still think it is time a major shake up of the system is overdue, we cannot afford to keep it as it is.If the money in the pot went to those in our society that  you talk about who genuinely needed help because they are incapable of self support, there would be more money available for them, it is the ner do wells and scroungers we want shot of.



I do agree that a major shake up is overdue, but it needs to be done in a way that properly consults with those affected and the organisations who work with them, instead of tokenistic consultations which are moulded in such a way to fit with the plan which has already been decided before the consultation. This could actually save a huge amount of money in the long run. Unfortunately, vulnerable members of our society are not the best at shouting out for themselves. 

And becoming a benefit scrounger could happen to anyone unlucky enough to develop an illness or disability which affects their ability to work, or unlucky enough to be made redundant, or unlucky enough to have a marriage or long term relationship break down or just unlucky enough to discover that they have become pregnant after a quick fling (hands up those of us who haven't ever crossed their fingers and hoped at a certain time of the month). There but for the Grace of God go I. 

I suppose it's all about the spin which is put on it.


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## groyne (Jun 25, 2012)

By removing housing benefits to under 25s, Cameron is not solving a problem, he's just moving it and creating one somewhere else. It's called Politics.


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## Skar (Jun 25, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Dave is on about more cuts to welfare benefits again, I am anti Tory,but have to agree with him that benefits such as Housing allowance to under 25 s who have gotten themselves Pregnant and obtained housing benefits on the strength of that deserve to  have the benefits removed,



According to my local council housing rules, if a teenage girl left her parents home for no other reason than she wanted to. She would not have priority ''points'' for social housing as she had made herself ''voluntary homeless''. Having read the speech it is nothing but rhetoric, and a typical Cameron smoke screen, no hard facts, no quantifiable evidence given.



vindiboy said:


> there are lots of jobs available here in the South but the  youngsters won't take them as they can get the same  money in benefits it seems.



I don't know where in the South you are but here in Kent that is total Bull****, my lad (who is now 23) has been in and out of work for the last 4 years and can only really get work through agencies working night shifts for minimum wages and doing stupid hours, 16 hours on Saturday I think it was, starting at 5 am.. He does it though.


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## Funky Farmer (Jun 25, 2012)

groyne said:


> By removing housing benefits to under 25s, Cameron is not solving a problem, he's just moving it and creating one somewhere else. It's called Politics.




When can we expect the next riots I wonder.   Then Dave can ride to the rescue


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## n brown (Jun 25, 2012)

from experience i say parents of single mothers have more than just a share of the blame.my parents were rubbish and 2 of my 3 sisters were single mums. i'm convinced they were trying to find love in some form,there wasn't any at home,and young girls with low self esteemhave always been easy prey.girls also isuspect get pregnant to bolster their self esteem and to ha a companion to share their otherwise lonely life. strangely, we had 3 daughters,all of whom knew they were loved and wanted and none of them got pregnant,so as someone with 3 sisters,3 daughters,a wife a mother and a granddaughter,i've known a few women quite well


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## scek (Jun 25, 2012)

A couple near here have just got caught - reported and caught in the act. They live apart, got 4 kids, both houses on benefits. Been caught living in one house and renting out the other. The guy is 23 and never worked a day in his life. She's pregnant again and cant see what theyve done wrong.

Its about time the housing abuse was stopped. Too many freebies, too many people expecting o get everything for nothing.


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## maingate (Jun 25, 2012)

No system can be changed at the stroke of a pen and be fair or good.

I cannot see what advantage there will be and there could be a big down side. This is the age group who (statistically) commit more crime. Make them desperate and even homeless and we will have problems.

One idea I would like to see is a change in how child benefit is paid. It should not be in cash but as a Tax allowance. Working people will still get the benefit, those on low wages will get a tax credit and those not working will get an allowance which need not be equivalent to the full child allowance.

Some of you will say that kids will suffer. Whatever benefits a family loses then they will suffer anyway. There needs to be an incentive to get off benefits. Personally, I would give nothing to any young single men and women unless they did some sort of labour for it. I am not saying 40 hours a week, just enough to get them out of the house. This country is a pig sty with litter everywhere. Get them cleaning the place up. It is often young people who make the mess in the first place (but not exclusively).


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## John H (Jun 25, 2012)

maingate said:


> No system can be changed at the stroke of a pen and be fair or good.
> 
> I cannot see what advantage there will be and there could be a big down side. This is the age group who (statistically) commit more crime. Make them desperate and even homeless and we will have problems.
> 
> ...



The reason I did not press the "like" button is because I am not convinced by the changes to child benefit you propose. Traditionally, the idea of paying it as a sum to the mother was because the father (usually the breadwinner and the one who would get the tax relief) could not be guaranteed to spend it on the children. Stereotypes, I know, but most stereotypes are based on fact. 

The rest of what you say I agree with. It seems to me to be crazy that there are so many jobs that, as a society, we need to be done (from litter-picking to stamp-licking) that it is a nonsense to pay able-bodied people a weekly wage for doing nothing. Apart from anything else, having a job (and lets not call it anything other than a job!) will restore self-esteem to a lot of unemployed people. There will always be the work-shy and the criminal but the majority are decent people who find themselves on benefit through no fault of their own.


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## caspar (Jun 25, 2012)

I believe demographics will show pockets of deprivation where these problems are far more prevalent. In Wales they're known as  'Communities First' areas. They attract a lot of extra funding, and depending on the person controlling it, some is spent wisely, some isn't. 

What I find very disappointing is the low expectation of an entire generation (generalisation agreed!) of people in this area. People aged around 18 - 25 who get into multiple problems, often started by parenting a child, often leading to extremes of substances abuse, drugs etc....

My charity when started was aimed specifically at this group of people to help them resolve their current issues and raise their expectations. This was a charity started by someone living in the heart of the community and wanting to help that community. Mainly for political reasons, other charities who received funding for 'numbers through doors' attacked my charity and forced me effectively to shut shop. I opened nationaly under a different name and it has been massively successful. 

The point I'm trying to make is that helping these people is not balck and white, as shown by my experience. It does not alter my life one jot, but it stops me being able to play the role I wanted, in a community crying out for it, for purely political reasons. 

So Mr Cameron, you can't have it both ways. You can't cut the funding with one hand causing worse problems, and give some back with the other to help resolve the very same issues.


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## n brown (Jun 25, 2012)

seems to me,reading along, that's there's still folk who'd be happy to see a bit of selective sterilisation,like they used to do in the states and germany.fine.who makes the choices?


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## n brown (Jun 25, 2012)

and talking about single mothers,in bath,in the early seventies,there was a home where old women were taken for walks round the town every now and again,nearly all of these women had proved themselves mental cases by getting pregnant,either by choice or by force,there was no difference apparently and were institutionalised for the rest of their lives . by right thinking people who knew what was best for them.so that was ok then


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## Woodstock (Jun 25, 2012)

I wonder why Dave is being so age specific ? Perhaps next the ones who can't get jobs will be forced into national service, just in time to be trained well enough to go and get blown up in Iran.
Problem solved at minimum cost to the tax payer and an absolute godsend to the oil companies.


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 25, 2012)

And to do that he will distort the facts, hide the truth, and whip the silent majority up into a frenzy of indignation using emotive language and half truths.

If trying to see the good in someone or feeling the sense of needing to give someone some support or guidance or encouragement in order for them to be able to move forward and help themselves to improve their life makes me an apologist of a social worker, then so be it. At least I can walk with my head high, knowing that I have done my best to give someone less fortunate than me a leg up, when so many other people would walk past, and indeed a fair proportion of people would take the opportunity to give them a good kick as they walk past. 

As it happens I'm not a social worker but I work in another field with people who suffer from great discrimination and prejudice, mental health. I work as a trainer delivering courses in mental health awareness to the public sector, currently NHS staff but the programme will be rolled out to police and prison service next year, specifically challenging stigma and discrimination, a national initiative to tackle society's inherent need to pass negative judgement on any one who doesn't fit the "normal and acceptable" box.


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## scampa (Jun 25, 2012)

I wish people would stop complaining about us under 25's, I'm beginning to develop a complex!!


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## n brown (Jun 25, 2012)

although,to be fair,if i came from a wealthy privileged background,and had no idea what fighting for survival,or taking **** from an employer to feed the family meant,i'd probably condemn anyone who didn't think exactly like me


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## n brown (Jun 25, 2012)

scampa said:


> I wish people would stop complaining about us under 25's, I'm beginning to develop a complex!!



you should apologise immediately for your disgusting youngness


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## maingate (Jun 25, 2012)

scampa said:


> I wish people would stop complaining about us under 25's, I'm beginning to develop a complex!!



I hope you are not so upset that you go out and impregnate some young woman. 

Or even worse ...... sh*g her. :mad1:


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

A couple years ago i worked on a homeless project for under 25's, one girl came to us aged 18, she was wearing a wig, why was she was wearing a wig? because all her hair had fell out, why? because at the age of 8 she was abused by her father, and his pals, she was forced into prostitution, by her own father, she was locked in her room for weeks on end to satisfy her fathers needs, and his drunken mates, do you think she asked for that lifestyle, at 8 years of age? i think not.

Can't wait for the next election, Gerem out, lets have RT, MTM, Scampa and FF running the country, :dance:


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 26, 2012)

kimbowbill said:


> A couple years ago i worked on a homeless project for under 25's, one girl came to us aged 18, she was wearing a wig, why was she was wearing a wig? because all her hair had fell out, why? because at the age of 8 she was abused by her father, and his pals, she was forced into prostitution, by her own father, she was locked in her room for weeks on end to satisfy her fathers needs, and his drunken mates, do you think she asked for that lifestyle, at 8 years of age? i think not.
> 
> Can't wait for the next election, Gerem out, lets have RT, MTM, Scampa and FF running the country, :dance:



And me and you behind the scenes telling them what to do and how to do it :idea-007:


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

whitevanwoman said:


> And me and you behind the scenes telling them what to do and how to do it :idea-007:



Well of course Jess, that goes without saying :cheers::cheers:


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## n brown (Jun 26, 2012)

stop it you're frightening me! the only person capable of running this country is ---- ME and i can't be arsed


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

We might let you join us, you can be in charge of the

cake

:lol-053::lol-053::lol-053:


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm always willing to take advice from Jen, and Wisevanwoman ;D

UK Parties 2010 General Election

All the main parties are pretty much the same. We shall have to go independant or Green!


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## whitevanwoman (Jun 26, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I'm always willing to take advice from Jen, and Wisevanwoman ;D
> 
> UK Parties 2010 General Election
> 
> All the main parties are pretty much the same. We shall have to go independant or Green!



Personally I'd go Monster Raving Looney....  :banana:


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

or we could be or indegreenpendent :dance::dance::dance:

"The Indegreenpendent Troll" Party KP could do our marketing literature, :dance:


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## Bigpeetee (Jun 26, 2012)

kimbowbill said:


> A couple years ago i worked on a homeless project for under 25's, one girl came to us aged 18, she was wearing a wig, why was she was wearing a wig? because all her hair had fell out, why? because at the age of 8 she was abused by her father, and his pals, she was forced into prostitution, by her own father, she was locked in her room for weeks on end to satisfy her fathers needs, and his drunken mates, do you think she asked for that lifestyle, at 8 years of age? i think not.
> 
> Can't wait for the next election, Gerem out, lets have RT, MTM, Scampa and FF running the country, :dance:



There are always tragic and very true instances such as the poor girl you describe or some of the people WVW has worked with, sadly there always will be.

I grew up in the 50-60's in the back streets of Liverpool and had very little, we were poor, not the worst by any means, but money was tight.

Yes, there were some girls who became pregnant, and to a degree it was hushed up, it was frowned upon, this was before abortion was legal.

One thing that stopped us being sexually active at an early age was the worry about getting someone pregnant and the stigma that was attached to it. Also, we weren't constantly confronted with sex in magazines, papers etc. The dirty mags of the time might show a girls breasts, but even then, some mags placed a little star over the nipples.

One thing that was expected was that you would work for what you wanted, never expect to be given things.

Forward to today, expectations are so high, especially amongst the youth and young adults.

It's not necessarily their "fault" as their parents or their friends parents have been caught up in the fashion of "give them anything they ask"

I know of people who haven't got anything, doing a bit on the side so they can buy designer underpants, pack of three for £72.00, you can't even see them, but they're worth it!!

But, if it's made tougher for people generally to get benefits, maybe people will think twice about letting themselves become pregnant. I've spoken to girls who quite openly admit that they don't take precautions because they'll get looked after by the state if they get up the duff.

There's always the exceptions, who through no fault of themselves find that they're pregnant, but I would suggest that they are in the minority.

PS, don't plan your cabinet just yet, there won't be any election.

I'M TAKING CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY, BUT I'LL BE A BENEVOLENT DICTATOR!!


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

whitevanwoman said:


> Personally I'd go Monster Raving Looney....  :banana:



I'm actually FB friends with a Monster Raving Looney candidate. King Arthur Pendragon of Stonehenge fame... the most important thing is a really unsusual or silly name. After that you just make everything up as you go along :lol-053:


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

My memory is not so good but where do i mention Labour???? if you read the post at the end i am injecting some humour.  Are you being judgmental David?


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

Take a look at this graphic:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/enPartiesTime.gif

It shows that in terms of personal freedom and economic policy, Tony Blair's New Labour shifted so far to the right and to a State control authoritarian stance, it became simply another Tory party.

So it is not a question of just Tory versus Labour. Being anti-Cameron does not necessarily imply Labour support because with the current set up, you'll just get more of the same with New Labour. You have to go back to the 70's or 80's before you get a caring Labour Party.

Interesting to note from the previous graphic I posted, that Ted Heath's 1972 Gov was much softer than today's New Labour, and also the BNP is actually to the left of New Labour (fiscally speaking).


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## mrbadger (Jun 26, 2012)

*Benefit Cuts*

The benefit system was never meant to be used to give a "start" to anyone. It was conceived as a safety net to help those who fell on hard times through no fault of their own.

The way to start out in life is to work and save, go without, make do and mend, decide your priorities and work towards them. Not just expect society to magically produce everything for you.

If you cant afford it this year, tough. Work and save, and maybe next year you will be able to afford it. Simple!


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## rolandrat (Jun 26, 2012)

It doesn't seem all that long ago we were a very prosperous country then we joined the common market and all our technology and industry was given away. We now have large swathes of barren land where our factories once stood that provided income and stability for our families. What have our young generation got to look forward to now, not every one can get a job at B&Q or McDonnalds. This once proud country is f-----d and will never be the same again, the so called politicians have sold us down the river and all they can do is divert their attention to penalising the people they represent by taxing us to the hilt so that what income we have buys less and less.


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## kenspain (Jun 26, 2012)

I think all benefits should be cut even pensions we dont need it now do we.:lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

I think we have moved closer to the American model with two dominant centre right parties. Whether you support one or the other often depends on nothing more than tribal loyalty. Blair was a master of disguise and managed to dupe the unions and enough of the rest of the party to join him in privatising NHS suppliers, authoritarian policy like ID cards, and lying so he could join in other men's wars.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Firefox said:


> I think we have moved closer to the American model with two dominant centre right parties. Whether you support one or the other often depends on nothing more than tribal loyalty. Blair was a master of disguise and managed to dupe the unions and enough of the rest of the party to join him in privatising NHS suppliers, authoritarian policy like ID cards, and lying so he could join in other men's wars.



The only thing I would take issue with in your post is the thing about identity cards. I know they are not popular but I can't help feeling that, along with a national DNA database, they would help to solve a lot of crimes. But before you come back at me, I know they could also be abused by an unscrupulous (ie take your pick of any of our parties) government. This is one of those issues on which I can see both sides of the coin.


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

The worst thing about Britain isn't, to use another's very inelegant phraseology, that it's ****ed, which it isn't actually, the worst thing is having to listen to the moaners who continually bang on about how it's ****ed. It's so depressing to read about how they seem to think that we're living in a Third World country with people dying of starvation as in North Korea. We're actually living in a wealthy western democracy with the freedom and standard of living that most of the world would die for.

Yes, we're on a slightly downward part of the inevitable economic cycle, as has happened in the past but Britain isn't Pakistan or even Spain, Portugal or Greece and the reason that we haven't been affected by the global recession as much as these other countries is actually down to those politicians that so many of you seem, without any actual logic, to despise.

For God's sake people, start counting your blessings instead of this constant whinging and whining!


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## veedubmatt (Jun 26, 2012)

I say yes take it away for under 25s the prob is once your on all the hand outs it's no point going back to work I have a wife and 1 young boy I was so shocked when I had to go on the doll we had an easy life every thing was paid for us rent / and some bills edf even cut are bill in half because I told them I don't work 
but I could not sit and sponge for longer then 6 weeks that's just me also any one that says they can't find a job is chatting sh*t the job centre have sooo many jobs it un real 
and single mum should not get nothing I know of at least 5 girls who wanted to move out of mums house so had a baby with one nights stand and wow you should see what the girls have got and life is good for them 
I'm gonna shut up now because my blood is boiling


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## Somelier (Jun 26, 2012)

There are many facets to this thread. I, as a 22 year old, struggled to raise a family, studied via a day release course and many hours at home for a vocational qualification. Living first in rented accommodation, I finally managed, with the help of my employer, to buy a house. Money was tight, we had no TV, no car. I've never smoked, but my then wife did, we didn't drink as a general rule - we couldn't afford to. Apart from help from my employer on the deposit for the house, and of course child benefit, we managed on what I earned. It was hard, but that was what was expected in those days - handouts were not available!

I have some sympathy for SOME of today's young people, despite what has been said elsewhere, there is very little work available, especially here in the midlands.

What bothers me is that the politicians make decisions about cuts without actually knowing who will be effected. There are many on benefits who don't deserve it, but it seems that it's never those who the cuts really effect. It's the old, infirm and unable to fight that seem always to suffer.

I know many examples of really deserving people who are totally ignored by Social Services, while the social workers bend over backwards for the undeserving. My wife is a healthcare professional and she despairs at the way some of her elderly, needy patients are refused help. Luckily for them, they have SWMBO on their side and Social Services get a real going over and are usually forced to give her patients what they are rightly deserving. As we have seen from some spectacular cases in the media, social workers really are pretty useless at their jobs and they have a great deal to answer for with this current situation - just ask my wife's step-mother!

It is no good blaming the current Government for everything. Nearly all those in politics now have come directly from upper class schools, are qualified in law or accountancy and have never lived in the real world. None of them know what it's like to have to count the pennies and they have no understanding of struggling to pay the electricity or gas bill.

I could go on, but then the keyboard would start to melt, so rant over.


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## and123wills (Jun 26, 2012)

Yes there are a minority who abuse the system, and there are some who dont now any difference just through total ignorance and have been let down by the eduction system.

Then on the other hand you have fantastic minority who can make sweeping generalisations of scroungers and dead beats, in this group you have the total ignorant who have also been let down by the educational system.

There is a very small step between having and having not, I dont like using cliché but "There for the grace of god goes I" applies her.


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## elainekirk (Jun 26, 2012)

Society has to wake up and hand children back to their parents, what the hell are we doing having the state take responsibility for their learning from toddlerhood to adulthood? There is no wonder they become dysfunctional adults self determination is essential to independence and yet we the taxpayers employ a whole swathe of others to raise children.
Some of the worlds most successful education systems have a starting age of seven.
Why are we determining their lives to the point that they become adults who are unaware of vast swathed of history having only been taught pre determined areas of it? 
Why do we no longer have teenagers who can create from wood, fabric etc?
We have got it wrong , the future cannot be predicted to the point where a five year old can be trained in the skills needed to become a productive member of the workforce 13-15 yrs hence.
We have the technology  to run an education system that enables children to reach their full potential , that ensures computer whizzed kids attain their goals, that ensures the fashion designers have the necessary skills, that ensure the shop workers have great customer skills , that ensure the people keeping our streets cleaners have pride in their jobs due to them knowing all the local history and the local community and are able to leaise with others to keep the area safe.
If we want our children to become responsible adults they have to be allowed to learn and to have that learning facilitated , teaching doesn't work in it's present form and I suspect many teachers would gain much more job satisfaction from having their chains removed because they know the children and are able to recognise their areas of skill not some overpaid whitehall mandarin.
Todays parents have never had to make decisions we need to let kids learn for themselves only then will we have responsible adults.
Of course reducing state interference in education will save lotsa dosh and leave many educationalists job hunting but ....


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## Bigpeetee (Jun 26, 2012)

elainekirk said:


> Society has to wake up and hand children back to their parents, what the hell are we doing having the state take responsibility for their learning from toddlerhood to adulthood? There is no wonder they become dysfunctional adults self determination is essential to independence and yet we the taxpayers employ a whole swathe of others to raise children.
> Some of the worlds most successful education systems have a starting age of seven.
> Why are we determining their lives to the point that they become adults who are unaware of vast swathed of history having only been taught pre determined areas of it?
> Why do we no longer have teenagers who can create from wood, fabric etc?
> ...




Well put!!

The trouble is that many teachers themselves did not have a diverse education and as a consequence don't have the ability to pass on their knowledge, if they were allowed.

Unfortunately, we have developed a system that is almost wholly reliant on academic qualifications, the enthusiasm for young people to get a degree (at great cost to them), did however massage the youth unemployment figures.

We are seeing the entrance levels rise for even the most mundane of jobs, yes the top few, get really good jobs as they always did, the rest are left to be absorbed into the remainder of the jobs. But the standards have dropped over the years (endorsed by a good friend who used to set both GCE O & A level)

We have lied to our children and are now suffering the consequences.

Greed is at the bottom of much of this, how cheap can it be made and how much can I sell it for, as a consequence the majority of our manufacturing has been sent overseas. I blame the so called clever accountants, who like governments only think of short term gain.

I love this country and as some others have said, we are relatively well off, but if nothing is done soon to stop the decline and return to being more self sufficient and therefore less reliant on the vagaries of the world economy, we too can slide down the slippery slope that some our other European brethren are. Germany & France still have quite a good manufacturing industry compared to us, but they also feel pride in their country and will more often buy products from their own country, keeping it in the family.

This may sound dreadful, but in some ways, another great war would reduce the inflated expectations of the general populace, and get us working together again, looking after us as a nation. It would also reduce the population and provide jobs for those left.

Or are we already at war, with the international economy being a major weapon?

With that, I'll take cover before the incoming bullets and missiles find me!!


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

Somelier said:


> Nearly all those in politics now have come directly from upper class schools, are qualified in law or accountancy and have never lived in the real world. None of them know what it's like to have to count the pennies and they have no understanding of struggling to pay the electricity or gas bill.



Er, no they haven't! Parliament is stuffed with people from many different professions, from authors, through soldiers and teachers. But perhaps you can explain to us how being a plumber or a factory worker prior to entering parliament will make you a better lawmaker because remember, that's the primary function of parliament, to govern and enact laws so that hopefully our lives continue to improve?

We get this same total nonsense about teachers: 'They've never been in the real world..blah, blah, blah' What's the real world? Is it a factory or a hospital or on the streets with a brush? How does working in any of these jobs make you more aware of anything?

I want my law makers to be educated and intelligent. Running a country isn't like running a small business for God's sake! Do we have to experience starvation to be able to understand it? Do we have to experience dire poverty to know what it must be like for those who suffer it? It's the more intelligent people who will actually be able to understand the plight of others, because they're intelligent!

I know, let's ban the following people from standing for Parliament:

Rich and successful people because they can never understand what it's like to be poor and struggle to make ends meet.

Poor people who will never understand the problems of the middle classes, the great bulwark of British society.

The middle classes who cannot understand the problems of the rich or the poor, never having experienced them.

School teachers who've never lived in the 'real world'.

Factory workers who've only ever worked in a factory and have no idea what goes on anywhere else.

No one with an IQ above average as that means that they're elitist and can never understand Sun readers.

That'll do for a start! I'm sure that those trades and professions remaining will provide enough suitable people for the very complex task of running a country and will propel the U.K into a new age of enlightenment and prosperity.


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## Bigpeetee (Jun 26, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Er, no they haven't! Parliament is stuffed with people from many different professions, from authors, through soldiers and teachers. But perhaps you can explain to us how being a plumber or a factory worker prior to entering parliament will make you a better lawmaker because remember, that's the primary function of parliament, to govern and enact laws so that hopefully our lives continue to improve?
> 
> We get this same total nonsense about teachers: 'They've never been in the real world..blah, blah, blah' What's the real world? Is it a factory or a hospital or on the streets with a brush? How does working in any of these jobs make you more aware of anything?
> 
> ...



Hence my claim that there won't be the need for politicians when I become a benevolent dictator!!


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## Somelier (Jun 26, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Er, no they haven't! Parliament is stuffed with people from many different professions, from authors, through soldiers and teachers.



Yes, but none of those are in positions that allow them to make decisions. It is the well-healed, privately educated types who make the decisions and there's more to ruling a country than just making laws, there's also the need to understand what the people require and what the country requires to become successful.

Because of the narrow experience of those in the cabinet over the last couple of decades, the majority of our manufacturing capabilities have disappeared and so has the education needed to train young people for such jobs. All that is considered by Government these days is service and financial industries, which is why we're now in the current situation as a nation!

Incidentally, the best teachers I have known have come into teaching from other professions!


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

Somelier said:


> Yes, but none of those are in positions that allow them to make decisions. It is the well-healed, privately educated types who make the decisions and there's more to ruling a country than just making laws, there's also the need to understand what the people require and what the country requires to become successful.
> 
> Because of the narrow experience of those in the cabinet over the last couple of decades, the majority of our manufacturing capabilities have disappeared and so has the education needed to train young people for such jobs. All that is considered by Government these days is service and financial industries, which is why we're now in the current situation as a nation!
> 
> Incidentally, the best teachers I have known have come into teaching from other professions!



You really ought to do some research and see the number of different people from all walks of life who have made up the last few cabinets. And decisions are made by parliament, not by a few individuals. But once again I come back to the same argument. What is it about someone who has worked in factory, that makes him more understanding of the unemployed, if he's never been unemployed himself. Must MPs have experienced starvation to understand how unpleasant it is?

And do you really think that successive governments don't understand the importance of manufacturing and it's impact on our balance of payments? Do you really believe that they have deliberately reduced manufacturing in this country for some unfathomable reason? Or could it be competition from developing countries such as Japan was a few decades ago, or Korea or China? What about the impact of the unions on our car manufacturing, Red Robbo and his ilk?

I'm sorry, but all this bleating about 'They don't understand, they've never been in the real world' (whatever that is) is a load of unsubstantiated tosh.

Anyway, what would you do, stuff parliament with a load of factory workers and plumbers? Do you really think that would help? I can just see my gardener coming up with a policy to help see Britain through the Euro crisis. "Eh, what are you on about guv?"


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## maingate (Jun 26, 2012)

John H said:


> The only thing I would take issue with in your post is the thing about identity cards. I know they are not popular but I can't help feeling that, along with a national DNA database, they would help to solve a lot of crimes. But before you come back at me, I know they could also be abused by an unscrupulous (ie take your pick of any of our parties) government. This is one of those issues on which I can see both sides of the coin.



My wife and I actually have an identity card as we took part in the pilot scheme.

The card has eye recognition, fingerprints etc but none of the information (like banking and NHS details) that changed my mind about them. I am still all for the system as long as it is not used for underhand purposes, it should only be for confirmation of identity.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Northerner said:


> decisions are made by parliament, not by a few individuals.
> 
> I can just see my gardener coming up with a policy to help see Britain through the Euro crisis. "Eh, what are you on about guv?"



Both Naive AND Patronising - not a good look! :lol-053:


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

.....and only a few Eton-educated, Oxbridge graduates are likely to be sufficiently well educated to understand the issues, so why not include them too?


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## coolasluck (Jun 26, 2012)

Benefits were supposedly designed for a helping hand and not a career option and that is the bottom line.
We need to be pro-active here in making claimants earn their handouts.In whatever they are doing they need to have some sence of selfworth and i see no reason why they cannot be made to work x amount of hours in the community or wherever else in that aim.
As it is now they are allowed to redundantly laze around without a care in the world whilst the rest of us have to fund them.
I also cannot fathom how it is that some of these people seem to be able to spend the majority of their time in the pub,which is what is happening where i live, it is an injustice and an insult to those that pay their taxes and alarm clock britain.
It is the do-gooders and nanny state that we have lived in over the last few decades that have got us into this position.
The goverment needs to be taking more action and faster,lets at the very least get them out of bed with the alarm clock like the rest of us who have had to do so to earn a living.
What we do need in the u.k is commonsense and a goverment with some conviction .

May i also make a suggestion that we start with the doctors who also contribute to the problem by handing out sick notes that prevent healthy individuals from working by handing out excuses.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

coolasluck said:


> Benefits were supposedly designed for a helping hand and not a career option and that is the bottom line.
> We need to be pro-active here in making claimants earn their handouts.In whatever they are doing they need to have some sence of selfworth and i see no reason why they cannot be made to work x amount of hours in the community or wherever else in that aim.
> As it is now they are allowed to redundantly laze around without a care in the world whilst the rest of us have to fund them.
> I also cannot fathom how it is that some of these people seem to be able to spend the majority of their time in the pub,which is what is happening where i live, it is an injustice and an insult to those that pay their taxes and alarm clock britain.
> ...



Not sure about the blanket dismissal of "do-gooders" and doctors but, apart from that I totally agree. There are jobs that need doing, there are people available to do them and we are paying them anyway. It has always been a mystery to me why any developed country needs to have unemployment at all - give them jobs that need doing and pay them wages. Those who refuse to get off their backsides (without a serious medical or other reason) should be cut off from the system. There are, of course, potential complications such as "should the innocent children of a work-shy person be made to suffer too?" but it is not beyond the wit of a civilised society to overcome that one.


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## kenjones (Jun 26, 2012)

An across the board cut in benefits is very high risk and will harm genuine needy people. Whenever benefits are mentoined there is a flood of anecdotal evedence about people abusing the system, no doubt they do exist and should be stopped. What about the genuine people who hate being put in this position, they should be helped not persecuted.
I'm fortunate in having worked all my life and never needed the benefit system but I don't hate all of those who have. Next month I become a retirement pensioner and as a "baby boomer" will be on the government hit list.
The real villains are in Westminster.
 David Cameron is trying to score political point against disabled, elderly, unemployed and now young while giving away billions in overseas aid. He is so out of touch with real people.


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

Just do what I do and ignore him! He just loves stirring things!


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## coolasluck (Jun 26, 2012)

But even there your private details are sold.
The D.V.L.A see fit to sell your details to third party cases,take a look at private carparks who send you their fines,all done via courtesy of the d.v.l.a

Its an outrage that this department can hand over your details to anyone other than the police.Shouldnt happen.But it does.
It kind of makes you wonder what information is being sold about you, and without your consent, at the passport office.


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## sean rua (Jun 26, 2012)

[No message]


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Education doesn't equal intelligence or understanding - it is therefore unwise to assume that someone a "good quality private education" automatically has more intelligence or understanding than a gardener. It was that implication in Northerner's post that I was objecting to.

Further, you don't have to go to Oxbridge to have good debating skills. Some of the most accomplished debaters in our history came out of the mines (and very intelligent men they were too) and some of the wettest thinkers in our history have come out of Oxbridge. No one group of people has a monopoly of political skills (as the current Oxbridge-dominated Cabinet ably demonstrates!).


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

sean rua said:


> Despite what the likes of Northener may say, there is NO substitute for EXPERIENCE  in life. Those who do not know and understand the basic rudiments and practicalities of life - through a lack of experience in farming and fishing, mining, quarrying, and  engineering and construction,
> can either read or listen to what others who know tell them ( ie education)
> or just guess or speculate about actual reality.
> sean rua.



Quite right old chap. It really annoys me when I go to the doctor or dentist and find that it's some oik who's only been to medical school for five years! What do they know about life eh? I want a professional who's spent some time on a trawler or down a mine, now that's real experience for when you want to take out someone's spleen or work out the country's best way of dealing with the Euro crisis.

Experience in life, that's what all these professionals want. How can they understand the basic rudiments and practicalities of life unless they've done a stint in quarry or carried a hod up a few ladders eh? Real words of wisdom there folks. Sean Rua for parliament say I. But only if he'll do his stint down the pit first of course. That will really help him in framing complex legislation.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Just to correct a couple of points:
1. I did not say that a good education automatically shows a lack of intelligence but I said that such an education doesn't automatically show intelligence. Similar words but a very different meaning!
2. I have never mentioned my IQ so I think you are confusing me with someone else on that point. 

What I was objecting to in Northerner's post was his assumption that a gardener automatically wouldn't have the intelligence of an "educated" person. What you say in this post is basically in agreement with that point (a high IQ certainly does not imply that you have learned enough). I know that sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't - on this I think we are agreeing!


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## maingate (Jun 26, 2012)

Winston Churchill was a keen gardener.

He also loved to do his own bricklaying.

Easy enough to confirm. 

You may wonder how someone from an overwhelmingly Labour area would know that after you stated that Labour voters never change political parties.


Either: You got that wrong - or - always know your enemy. :idea:


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Sorry, maingate, I seem to have missed something. Who were you replying to in the above post?


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

It's not what you know its who you know....always has been


I jumped off the corporate ladder 2004....since then people commonly make the mistake because I do menial jobs including sweeping the streets I am some idiot incapable of rational thought and problem solving.

And yes I am vindictive I embarass them into re considering their bias.

I have sympathy with wvw, 1999 I too worked with disadvantaged young people ....line 9  wvw bet you haven't heard that in a while, but good indicator of the client group.

I am lucky I have done lots of things for work all which has taught me something.

I am from a humble ish background, and my parents wanted the best for me and my brother.....a lot of my peers didn't enjoy that support....so was it them at fault?.....of course not.

Advertising, religion, politicians will all suggest how you lead your life...my little gaggle I told them as I saw it , get up be ready you have a choice...a choice to better...for some naturally easier than others

Channa


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## maingate (Jun 26, 2012)

John H said:


> Sorry, maingate, I seem to have missed something. Who were you replying to in the above post?



Sorry about that John.

It was a reply about the lowly gardener and intelligence.

BTW, a good gardener knows the Latin names of the plants. I think that is quite a feat as I only speak Portuguese and Arabic (or did a good few years ago). According to some on here I only speak English and Rubbish.


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

After uni, I spent the first few years of my career working on building sites, and found manual workers were just as likely to be as intelligent as people in the office environment or indeed students. They were very aware of the political process and could have taken part in this debate the same as the rest of us. Especially the more skilled finishing trades such as chippies, brickies, or plasterers. 

George Bush famously had an IQ less than 100, as does the average BNP voter (academic studies available referenced on the internet concerning that!)

So it's pretty futile judging IQ by occupation. Not everyone has the chance to get an extended education.


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## Dezi (Jun 26, 2012)

Firefox said:


> After uni, I spent the first few years of my career working on building sites, and found manual workers were just as likely to be as intelligent as people in the office environment or indeed students. They were very aware of the political process and could have taken part in this debate the same as the rest of us. Especially the more skilled finishing trades such as chippies, brickies, or plasterers.
> 
> George Bush famously had an IQ less than 100, as does the average BNP voter (academic studies available referenced on the internet concerning that!)
> 
> So it's pretty futile judging IQ by occupation. Not everyone has the chance to get an extended education.



Not according to this website. 

IQ of Famous People | Famous IQ Scores | Famous IQ's

Dezi  c:


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

Firefox said:


> After uni, I spent the first few years of my career working on building sites, and found manual workers were just as likely to be as intelligent as people in the office environment or indeed students. They were very aware of the political process and could have taken part in this debate the same as the rest of us. Especially the more skilled finishing trades such as chippies, brickies, or plasterers.
> 
> George Bush famously had an IQ less than 100, as does the average BNP voter (academic studies available referenced on the internet concerning that!)
> 
> So it's pretty futile judging IQ by occupation. Not everyone has the chance to get an extended education.



As rt will testify, only let loose with a paintbrush, saddled with schoolboys who's best efforts I had to put right.

Interestingly Dave the weegie set them on so that they realised Some folk get dirty making a living in a pretty monotonous environment.

Whilst I understood his methodology, I wasn't in awe having to rectify work that should have been satisfactory first time around.

There was selling soul to the devil, I did things that are patently wrong ......eg painting wood without knotting solution or aluminium oxide primer.

My father 80 years old and a true timed served decorator told me to walk off the job I was being coerced into bodging.

Sadly my conscience prevented me yet my poverty permitted me....should I know that saying grammar school reject product of englands largest comprehensive?..


The only time ever and almost 50 my dad told me to pick up tools.

You see some of the so called educated and informed here, believe painting a door wall is straightforward....in fact there is a right way and wrong way.


Paper hanging even moreso....

I totally agree judging a persons intelligence.purely on how theyet put bread on the table is patronising, and actually it is those patronising that have the issues
Channa


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## Firefox (Jun 26, 2012)

I guess you could be right about Bush, Dezi:

snopes.com: Presidential IQ Hoax

I found this on Snopes, but if it isn't less than 100, it's certainly one of the lowest of US presidents  :juggle:


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## sean rua (Jun 26, 2012)

I think it's pretty clear which forum members have a disabling inferiority complex that causes them to constantly give themselves a pat on the back to try bolster their confidence.

When there isn't much substance to them, sarcastic snobbery - so beloved by the English middle-class - seems to get trotted out at every opportunity, regardless of the topic under discussion.

'Tis classic "little man trying to act big" and has been seen in many of the tyrants of history throughout the ages.
 The irony is that these folk usually make themselves look like absolute bellends while all the time accusing all and sundry of being total pillocks and ignorami when, in all probability, it is they who are the ignoramuses.

I no longer waste my time on politics and the Law, as the harsh reality is that we are at a critical cross-roads on the path of socio-economic development.
 Basically, in effect that means that both Ireland and the UK are falling to pieces economically and socially. That is the crux of the matter; survival is the name of the game.

In the survival stakes, the pratt with a thousand paper qualifications  is not the man we look to for help. Indeed, the person we need in this scenario is the humbled, much-maligned GARDENER.
 For, thoughsome may protest with wails and screams, 'tis the man who can put food on the table that we want, not the twerps and twits dribbling over reams of print-outs of ridiculous upper-class menus and recipes, written not in the language of their upbringing.

The two salient points to remember here are

a) "the fly off the dung-heap flies the highest"

b) food, clothing and shelter are essential. 
The basic drives of sex and hunger have to be satisfied first, and then it is time for the comforts and niceties that distinguish humans from other animals.
 I will go into those distinctive characteristics on another occasion.


Suffice it to say for the time being that, in my experience all over this planet, the percentage of so-called doctors who can actually do anything constructive and helpful is no more than 5% of the grand total of  pretentious, under-achieving, quacks out there.
 That is one important reason why there is so much alcohol and drug abuse among the medical profession. This, of course, is accompanied by the inevitable poor mental health and high suicide rates that are so prevalent in practices across Britain and Ireland.

Good luck to all who actually get out there and do something!
 I have stated on another motorhome forum, that, in my opinion, the Pareto principle has almost been turned on its head nowadays: I contend that 20% of the population of Western Europe and North America are actually trying to support the other 80%!

Obviously, this ratio is NOT sustainable, and is a major factor in the collapse of modern society and its economy.
 Personally, I do not automatically despise or hate this 80% of non-producers that have to be carried by those who can and do produce,  but, if ever I encounter any of them trying to put me or mine down, I will and do resist.



There is no perfection in reality, but live and let live is my watchword.


sean rua.


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

I take it one won't have difficulty in deciphering this.

If northerner capital required I know but predictive text and all that, doesn't have a gardener, that makes it worse.

Basing opinion on an occupational group rather than  an informed opinion is a greater sin.

Of course basing an opinion on a sample of one is  equally not that scientific either and equally as sinful
Channa.


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

yes you was, in my previous post which you may not have read, i said let the members on here run the country and gave an example of what they could be called, just trying to lighten the thread a little,  i have lost faith in all parties, this is what i meant, it was no way a means of support for labour


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## donkey too (Jun 26, 2012)

RT for President, Firefox for Chancellor and Jenny for Speaker of the House. I'll make the tea and be minister of race relations and immigration.:lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


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## kimbowbill (Jun 26, 2012)

Joking apart, its is refreshing to see our intellectuals of this site having a debate without personal insults, well done you guys, really enjoying the thread, its enlightening me please don't spoil it by personal attacks.


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## Bushtrekker (Jun 26, 2012)

*That took some reading!!!!*

Interesting though, seeing different people's opinions.  I think I'll keep mine to myself as I've been accused of being somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun...


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

I think the reality irrespective of who is residing in downing street....is as a country the welfare system as we know it has become unsustainable.

Ageing population, putting pressure on pensions, a large part of the community the young mainly disenfranchised by previous policies........irrespective of  the colour of government have left us in a mess...and the wheels of industry to dig us out of it are flat.....recessions. foreign competition etc.

Any government I think has to radically overhaul so many things to keep us in the running.

The problem with change is it ultimately effects folk and puts them often in a situation of loss.
Or at least perceived loss.

For those who haven't , visit harehills in Leeds, the manor Sheffield as examples,the desperation and sense of hope as all but vanished.

There will be some pain before we dig ourselves out of this One

Channa


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## afl777 (Jun 26, 2012)

Cuts to the sick are beyond belief with the instructions French firm ATOS has received from the gov.  A man in a coma being found fit for work, a 20 something with cerebral palsy, fed through a tube, blind, deaf, dumb, nappy wearer being found fit for work. Cancer sufferers undergoing chemo unable to stop being sick being sent to clean floors in the Workfare program. A mental health sufferer being found fit for work, going home and hanging himself. Present figures are 32 disabled a week committing suicide as they are left with no benefits coming in, found fit for work by ATOS. The BMA has voted the the assessment is seriously flawed and should be stopped. 90% of the ones found fit for work appeal, a panel of doctors assess their case and the ATOS ruling is overturned, only for ATOS to call the person back in a few weeks later for another assessment. Each appeal is now taking 6 months to go through. By April next year, anyone appealing against the ATOS decision will get no benefits while the appeal is heard. Im sure many of you will have or know of a sick person.....what will they live on, pay bills with, buy food with?

Just in case even more take the suicide route the gov is stopping Legal Aid. So in effect, if a family want to sue the gov or ATOS for the loss of a family member they wont be able to.

25yr old housing benefit. ...making them go back home to live. Fine unless they are an abuse victim, or no parents, or a dozen other hood reasons. 

Tax credit, again another minefield. Payable now on 24hrs work a week instead of 16. No-one i know in all the support groups etc has yet been able to persuade their employer to give them more hours. They are distraught. 

Lets not forget the NHS of course, as it will soon be something that we explain to grandchildren that used to exist. Quite a few NHS in the south have already been sold off to Virgin. This is the same Virgin that the gov don't mind them not paying tax. 

And then we have Lansley. Looking so very sincere while he sets up a company with himself at the head of it owning a big chunk of it which is busy buying up spare NHS land, which will then be sold off at inflated rates for housing etc. It is known that land is being bought, it has been hidden that Lansley is profiting from it.

Don't whatever you do just see what is on the news and think that is it.  The BBC is very selective on its reports, and is the brunt of many an ongoing campaign to get them to be truthful. 

Loads more but you're all maybe getting fed up now and losing the will.....plus my one finger typing is taking its toll lol. 

Ange


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

afl777 said:


> Cuts to the sick are beyond belief with the instructions French firm ATOS has received from the gov.  A man in a coma being found fit for work, a 20 something with cerebral palsy, fed through a tube, blind, deaf, dumb, nappy wearer being found fit for work. Cancer sufferers undergoing chemo unable to stop being sick being sent to clean floors in the Workfare program. A mental health sufferer being found fit for work, going home and hanging himself. Present figures are 32 disabled a week committing suicide as they are left with no benefits coming in, found fit for work by ATOS. The BMA has voted the the assessment is seriously flawed and should be stopped. 90% of the ones found fit for work appeal, a panel of doctors assess their case and the ATOS ruling is overturned, only for ATOS to call the person back in a few weeks later for another assessment. Each appeal is now taking 6 months to go through. By April next year, anyone appealing against the ATOS decision will get no benefits while the appeal is heard. Im sure many of you will have or know of a sick person.....what will they live on, pay bills with, buy food with?
> 
> Just in case even more take the suicide route the gov is stopping Legal Aid. So in effect, if a family want to sue the gov or ATOS for the loss of a family member they wont be able to.
> 
> ...


Butter inglish thanmime so don't worry.

I may sound frivolous, as I said there will be pain...

I don't for a moment question your comments, all believable, the mechanism we adopt to protect the vulnerable is what I am interested in.....

I am pessimistic of a successful outcome sorry to say.


Channa


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## afl777 (Jun 26, 2012)

And for saying we are 'all in it together'.....I would be interested to know just when it will be deemed appropriate for MPs not only to stop getting their second homes paid for by the taxpayer while so many folks are being made homeless, but also when it will be that the MPs subsidised 3course meals in the Commons restaurant will be stopped...seeing as food banks are in operation in poorer parts of some cities and its been made illegal to feed the homeless in Westminster..

Ange


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

I do have a gardener and we grew up together and have remained friends ever since. We went to different schools and had totally different career paths. He retired some years ago from his job as some kind of electrician in a factory and I was looking for a new gardener and I asked him if he'd fancy doing a few hours a week in my garden, which is quite large and, as we go away a lot, it's nice to have someone to look after it. My wife loves gardening and is the brains behind the operation. He's basically the labourer and odd job man and does it well. As a consequence of him working for me he has actually built up a little business doing the gardens of many friends and neighbours. He's hard working, trustworthy and a thoroughly decent man who has worked hard all of his life and brought up two children who are, just like him, a credit to society.

But he's not very bright! And if I asked his opinion on the Euro catastrophe he'd be unable to come up with a coherent opinion. Which is one reason why I find it incredible that people think that to be a teacher or a politician you cannot do your job properly unless you've been a welder and learned 'what life is all about'. What is life all about that you have to work in a factory, or a quarry to fathom this great mystery?

Do you have to have worked in industry to be a good dentist, or a good architect or a good businessman? Some people are actually bright enough to know that poverty is horrible, that starvation is even worse and that struggling to make ends meet isn't pleasant. Why do we believe that unless people have actually experienced these things themselves that they can't understand what the consequences of them are? 

It is utter tosh to think that only people who have worked in factories or at the coal face can know 'what life is all about'. All they learn is what their life is all about!


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

runnach said:


> While as a country in the grip of austerity cuts, I really can't get my head around the fact, a good portion of ££'s from public purse go towards keeping the Royals in the splender they are accustomed too.
> 
> I'm not a royalist and, I certainly would not like to see, or hear any harm coming to any of the Royal family, it just beggars belief how one of the most richest families in the world, are allowed have their snouts in the public purse trough too????
> 
> ...



For a few years apparently lizzie has paid tax....and she doesn't have to
I am of the opinion the queen has generated a lot of. Business for Britain so she can stay.....the hangers on a different story.

I will finish with this ....my little old lady in harehills rough part of Leeds and really should be cared for better than she is takes comfort from the queen.

You see. If she indeed remembers Christmas day, she rustles up her lunch believing a tin of corned beef is a tinned turkey.

She puts on an extra couple of carrdies because the queen is talking to her at  3.00 pm...the fact she can't remeber the last time the fire was lit is immaterial. , indeed the fact Alzheimer's has rendered her unable to even work the fire out is immaterial.....Elizabeth was a land girl you know.

Sadly...and I am telling the truth this is a true situation....and to be Frank welling up typing...the royals are not the problem.

How we allow vulnerable old people to fend for themselves is an indictment of what we have become as a society...

Wvw said something so true ........there by the grace of god go I

Channa


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## Bushtrekker (Jun 26, 2012)

*Interesting*

*


afl777 said:



			Cuts to the sick are beyond belief with the instructions French firm ATOS has received from the gov.  A man in a coma being found fit for work.....
		
Click to expand...

*


afl777 said:


> which member of the House of Lords was that?
> 
> Joking apart, why are the Government using a French firm? I had to fill in one of their forms recently for my wife, who has Retinitis Pigmentosa and she is on Disability Allowance and Incapacity Benefit, after working as a nurse all her life until she was forced to retire four years ago. She is scared stiff that she will lose out and we won't have enough to live on, despite my pointing out that there are people a lot worse off than she is.  The only good thing in all of this is that the coalition seems to have a faulty gearbox which jumps into reverse every time someone puts pressure on them.


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

afl777 said:


> And for saying we are 'all in it together'.....I would be interested to know just when it will be deemed appropriate for MPs not only to stop getting their second homes paid for by the taxpayer while so many folks are being made homeless, but also when it will be that the MPs subsidised 3course meals in the Commons restaurant will be stopped...seeing as food banks are in operation in poorer parts of some cities and its been made illegal to feed the homeless in Westminster..
> 
> Ange



MPs have to work away from home and need accommodation when in their constituency. What is your solution? Let them stay in hotels, which would cost even more than a second-home allowance? Other workers whose jobs take them away from home get expenses and rightly so. If your employer asked you to spend three days a week at a branch 200 miles away would you think it fair that you pay all your travel costs and your hotel bills? I can assure you, that you'd have no money left from your salary. So come on, what would you do so that an MP can attend the House of Commons in London and also spend many weeks in his constituency which may be hundreds of miles away.

As for the pathetic argument about subsidised meals, what's so wrong about that? Lots of huge companies have canteens that offer meals for their workers at low prices. MPs have to eat during their working day so what do you think they should do, walk to the nearest London restaurant and pay thirty quid for a meal?

And quite frankly, your comments about people being made homeless are appalling and have no bearing on the subject. Who's being made homeless? Who is being evicted from their homes for no reason? And what has that got to do with a fair deal for MPs or anyone else for that matter? You should stop reading the Socialist Worker and learn to think for yourself.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I do have a gardener ........But he's not very bright!
> 
> It is utter tosh to think that only people who have worked in factories or at the coal face can know 'what life is all about'. All they learn is what their life is all about!



I don't know anybody who thinks that you have to work in factories or at the coal face to know what life is all about. But I do know somebody who seems to think that the reverse is true - and it is you. You use the example of your "not very bright" gardener to illustrate a wider point that cannot be justified (and I wonder what your gardener's view of all this might be) . The fact is that there are very bright people who are gardeners and there are very bright people who run businesses. By the same token, there are stupid gardeners and stupid people who run businesses. Nobody disputes that. What I am disputing is that you constantly think that all the brains are on the side you believe in and that nobody who has spent his life in menial occupations can have anything meaningful to say. If I am wrong in my assessment of you then please reply.


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2012)

afl777 said:


> Cuts to the sick are beyond belief with the instructions French firm ATOS has received from the gov.  A man in a coma being found fit for work, a 20 something with cerebral palsy, fed through a tube, blind, deaf, dumb, nappy wearer being found fit for work. Cancer sufferers undergoing chemo unable to stop being sick being sent to clean floors in the Workfare program. A mental health sufferer being found fit for work, going home and hanging himself. Present figures are 32 disabled a week committing suicide as they are left with no benefits coming in, found fit for work by ATOS. The BMA has voted the the assessment is seriously flawed and should be stopped. 90% of the ones found fit for work appeal, a panel of doctors assess their case and the ATOS ruling is overturned, only for ATOS to call the person back in a few weeks later for another assessment. Each appeal is now taking 6 months to go through. By April next year, anyone appealing against the ATOS decision will get no benefits while the appeal is heard. Im sure many of you will have or know of a sick person.....what will they live on, pay bills with, buy food with?
> 
> Ange



I simply don't believe you. A man in a coma being found to be fit for work? A man who is blind, deaf and dumb and being fed through a tube fit for work? Where do you get this nonsense from? Please provide some proof for these ludicrous accusations or stop making them.


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## John H (Jun 26, 2012)

channa said:


> For a few years apparently lizzie has paid tax....and she doesn't have to



I usually agree with your contributions, Channa, but I have to point out the nonsense of the situation you describe here. Why should any family (royal or otherwise) have the choice whether or not to pay tax? We should ALL be subject to the same rules, whether we are Queen or Northerner's gardener.


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## Bushtrekker (Jun 26, 2012)

*It's just occurred to me...*

Whilst Atos is screwing up the benefit system, what jobs has the government given to Porthos, Aramis and D'artagnan?


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

I have worked in Scotland merely 8 weeks....let me share the one I have spoken with want independance, indeed not met a Scot yet that doesn't..

Channa


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## afl777 (Jun 26, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I simply don't believe you. A man in a coma being found to be fit for work? A man who is blind, deaf and dumb and being fed through a tube fit for work? Where do you get this nonsense from? Please provide some proof for these ludicrous accusations or stop making them.



I'll put the PC on tomorrow and post the links. One is from the 20yr old's parents.  In fact, I'll bring quite a few over so you can see my ludicrous ramblings are, if fact, truth.

When you've read them you can apologize 

Ang


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## maingate (Jun 26, 2012)

If we turn the argument around. Someone who starts their working career in politics (and there are quite a few who have done nothing else), what do they know about industry, health matters, unemployment etc.?

I have not yet seen a decent argument as to the sort of person who should become a politician. Although the protagonists seem to think they have.


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## n brown (Jun 26, 2012)

afl777 said:


> I'll put the PC on tomorrow and post the links. One is from the 20yr old's parents.  In fact, I'll bring quite a few over so you can see my ludicrous ramblings are, if fact, truth.
> 
> When you've read them you can apologize
> 
> Ang



private eye is trying to make people aware of this awful situation so there's hope


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## afl777 (Jun 26, 2012)

Scottish Law Reporter: Hundreds of Scots DEAD as FOI reveals thousands die in UK as a result of Tory-Libdem benefits ‘tests’ by ATOS Healthcare


Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: My ill wife had to fight for benefits up until she died

Rightsnet discussion forum | Coma patient fit for work

THE FULL FACTS • View topic - He's blind, deaf and can't say a word. But fit for work

There's loads more, but to be quite honest i just can't be bothered a couple of days after having my sinuses drilled out to have to hold up my specs cos i can't stand them being on my nose just to look for and post links to prove that I'm not some troll or baffoon making up tales.

This is the second time I've been pulled up on a post Ive done.....I would hope there isn't a third cos I find it kinda rude..!!


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## canalwheeler (Jun 26, 2012)

Those who draw attention to the truth always get abuse. Stick with it.

Regarding MP's second homes. The system of election is corrupt anyway. An MP should only be allowed to stand for an area where s/he has lived for 10 years. Simple as that. No more moving rich blokes around to constituencies which are easy wins just because they have the same funny handshake as the rest of the boys.

If that was the case, then the temporary accommodation should be provided at Westminster, not out in the sticks somewhere. They'd already have a house in their constituency.

Sometimes I think we should consider who is really running our country..... and it ain't MPs.

Tone


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## runnach (Jun 26, 2012)

afl777 said:


> Scottish Law Reporter: Hundreds of Scots DEAD as FOI reveals thousands die in UK as a result of Tory-Libdem benefits ‘tests’ by ATOS Healthcare
> 
> 
> Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: My ill wife had to fight for benefits up until she died
> ...


I suspect people are questioning source and truth not you....don't worry..it happens...it isn't necessarily a sleight on the poster more interrogation of the facts...or establishing of facts to make an informed decision.


I haven't questioned you but if I should you now know why
Channs


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## afl777 (Jun 26, 2012)

I get the info from my Twitter account where i have MPs, doctors, lawyers, campaigners etc.  Many links are from well known newspapers. The parents of the cerebral palsy lad put their own story on. 

Think what you will.


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## Jojo (Jun 26, 2012)

*congratulations to the debaters - I'll vote for you!*

I did a spot of googling to see what Atos had been up to and found another link to a Citizens Advice Bureau report which has more examples of appallingly bad decisions about capacity to work.

Good to see reasoned debate in a web forum - must admit that my initial reason for reading through was to see how nasty it would get... and (as a newbie to the forum/community) I'm more than pleasantly surprised. Great to see WVW presenting acase for people in need, which I mostly agree with - having worked in mental health myself I'm well aware there are loads of people who can't help themselves. From the other angle it would be great if the few who get away with doing nothing were given work (and self respect) but, in my experience, most people on benefits aren't getting away with anything. It's a miserable existence for most and absolutely not what they'd choose. We might wish other people had different lives, think they 'should do this or that' but those other people have to deal with how their lives actually are, which can be truly horrible. There but for fortune... 

For a bit of heart warming I recommend watching this on BBC iPlayer: Project Hackney, about a group of teenagers in east London (available until 3:59AM Sun, 1 Jul 2012).

G'night all!


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## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

John H said:


> I usually agree with your contributions, Channa, but I have to point out the nonsense of the situation you describe here. Why should any family (royal or otherwise) have the choice whether or not to pay tax? We should ALL be subject to the same rules, whether we are Queen or Northerner's gardener.



In fairness john I never volunteered one way or the other that the queen pay taxes.

My understanding is that she chose to aware perhaps of public scrutiny

But the fact remains she didn't have to..but ultimately chose to which is the right thing to do

Perhaps a monarch who either is in touch or listens to advisors with an open mind.

I don't think I wIll get the knighthood or tea at the palace for that matter...nay mind always a curry with the scrounging pakis of Bradford...btw the taxi drivers know me an my sense of humour ........
They don't understand me at times....travelling in caravan on wheels....Yup rajpoon Shipley any time
Channa


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## kimbowbill (Jun 27, 2012)

TBH i'm not too fussed on  the Royal family, however, Charlie is a good lad, he does a lot of work for the young jobless, homeless ect, and wills will make the best king ever, he's a darling.


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## Bushtrekker (Jun 27, 2012)

*You could fit a lot of homeless unmarried mothers into all those palaces and estates.*

Then of course there is the Duchy of Cornwall. Has anyone been watching the programme about George v and his PR job to make the royal family more acceptable before he went the way of the other royals in Europe?


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## Northerner (Jun 27, 2012)

afl777 said:


> Scottish Law Reporter: Hundreds of Scots DEAD as FOI reveals thousands die in UK as a result of Tory-Libdem benefits ‘tests’ by ATOS Healthcare
> 
> 
> Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: My ill wife had to fight for benefits up until she died
> ...



Well, this is how I understand your links. It actually turns out that in both these cases ATOS did not, as you claimed, assess as being fit for work, people who were in a coma or were blind, deaf and being fed through a tube. It is the DWP who, not having received the form necessary to continue benefits, has told the patient (or his carer) that, unless the form is received, he will be considered fit for work. 

This is how thousands of people were taken off the list of those receiving benefits that they weren't entitled to. Many people were claiming benefits when they were fit to work. They were sent assessment forms in order to satisfy the authorities that they were actually ill. If they didn't return the form they were considered fit for work, and many didn't return the forms because the knew that therer was really nothing wrong with them and that they wouldn't pass the following examination.

You quite clearly suggested that the system was saying that people with severe medical conditions were being assessed as fit for work. This is simply not the case! They never got to the assessment page and this is all about paperwork.

The one about hundreds of Scots dying is another piece of total rubbish, the title of which suggests that sick people are being forced back to work and that it's killing them. This is actually about people with some medical problem who have been assessed as being fit for some kind of work and again, what's wrong with that? In a year hundreds of people on the list died. But so what? Thousands of people in Scotland died that year and how many people died who were already employed and in work? 

So to sum up, your links quite clearly prove that ATOS is not demanding that coma patients go back to work, it is not assessing deaf and blind people who are being fed through a tube and insisting that they should get a job, it turns out that these people were never even assessed and it's all about most of them not completing the paperwork which is necessary for them to continue claiming benefit.

What is your answer? If someone begins to claim benefits because they have a medical problem, should they be allowed to carry on claiming for the rest of their life, or should they be subject to regular assessment to ensure that they haven't improved and are now fit for work?

However, I'd really like to know more about your scandalous claim that 32 people a week are committing suicide because their benefits have been cut. Let's have proper evidence for this, not some left-wing blogger spouting unsubstantiated tripe. Once again, I simply do not believe it!


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## afl777 (Jun 27, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Well, this is how I understand your links. It actually turns out that in both these cases ATOS did not, as you claimed, assess as being fit for work, people who were in a coma or were blind, deaf and being fed through a tube. It is the DWP who, not having received the form necessary to continue benefits, has told the patient (or his carer) that, unless the form is received, he will be considered fit for work.
> 
> This is how thousands of people were taken off the list of those receiving benefits that they weren't entitled to. Many people were claiming benefits when they were fit to work. They were sent assessment forms in order to satisfy the authorities that they were actually ill. If they didn't return the form they were considered fit for work, and many didn't return the forms because the knew that therer was really nothing wrong with them and that they wouldn't pass the following examination.
> 
> ...



You are entitled go your views but Im not prepared waste my time to look out even more links for you to still virtually call them lies. I suggest you get a Twitter account....look for me on there Im...afl2277.....and i will pass you on to the doctors, nurses, carers, MPs, lawyers etc that Im getting the links from.  Then you could really enjoy yourself by calling a lot of people liars and not just me !

And i hope to goodness that even you dont have anyone in your family that suddenly becomes disabled because it will obviously be more of a shock to you in more ways than one. 


Scandalous and unsubstantiated tripe?  Where do you except me to find proof that would be acceptable to you.....go out and find these people, get access to their Atos reports and post them here? You asked for proof and Ive posted quite acceptable links.

I was pulled to bits over a leaking motorhome post and let it go rather than cause bother.  
Now here is the second quite frankly rude post aimed at me in two days.  

Im just now starting to wonder exactly what Ive bothered paying £15 for ! !


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## Bigpeetee (Jun 27, 2012)

channa said:


> I think the reality irrespective of who is residing in downing street....is as a country the welfare system as we know it has become unsustainable.
> 
> Ageing population, putting pressure on pensions, a large part of the community the young mainly disenfranchised by previous policies........irrespective of  the colour of government have left us in a mess...and the wheels of industry to dig us out of it are flat.....recessions. foreign competition etc.
> 
> ...



Part of the problem is Government, be it local or national burying their head in the sand.

Over 25 years a go, the government were being warned of the ageing population and the financial issues that were in store, along with housing, youth unemployment etc, yet they did very little about it.

Short term fire fighting has always been the modus operandi in many cases. After all, an election is always on the horizon

I have virtually no faith in national government, who plough on regardless keeping their buddies sweet. Whilst local, national and international finances are not the same as a household budget, if the average Joe in the street gets concerned with say the massive rise in the cost of property, as a result in many ways of the financial institutions lack of common sense in lending money, why doesn't someone up there think "this is going to end up in a pile of sh*t" and do something about it, they were quick enough when said financial institutions fell into the sh*t they created. As I said, firefighting and keeping their buddies sweet.

I too have worked in a wide range of employment, from project managing multi million pound jobs to labouring, so have a good perspective of the good and bad.

Having worked with local government and health services, I am still baffled as to why a simple project becomes overly complex, with enough paper to deforest  a small county and costs a fortune.

Part of the problem is that "Qualifications" have more meaning than the ability to actually "Do" the job, this is becoming more prevalent in both local government and health. About 25 years a go, I was contracted to a bank in London to "get them out of the sh*t, literally what I was told!" The IT director introduced me to his team to relocate IT from 5 sites into one, there were firsts galore, masters and doctorates, in the team, each one of them could write academic gobbledegook till it came out of their ears, but virtually all of them had no practical experience at all. At this point I realised that "Educated" did not always equate to "Intelligent" and certainly common sense was very thin on the ground.

Yes, there are some very capable people who have gone through our education system, but I've also met some incredible people who can just "Do things" with their hands and brains.

As qualifications alone are now being used as a filter rather than the ability to actually do the job, here is a major problem, we are placing the qualified in positions where they have to think in practical terms, something they don't teach at Uni!! (probably because the very lecturers haven't actually "done it" in the real world!" or if they tried, they were so poor they decided to teach.

Yes, I'm generalising a lot, but it's been my experience that I'm not far from the truth.


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## Northerner (Jun 27, 2012)

afl777 said:


> You are entitled go your views but Im not prepared waste my time to look out even more links for you to still virtually call them lies. I suggest you get a Twitter account....look for me on there Im...afl2277.....and i will pass you on to the doctors, nurses, carers, MPs, lawyers etc that Im getting the links from.  Then you could really enjoy yourself by calling a lot of people liars and not just me !
> 
> And i hope to goodness that even you dont have anyone in your family that suddenly becomes disabled because it will obviously be more of a shock to you in more ways than one.
> 
> ...



You have no one to blame but yourself if you insist on publishing unsubstantiated tripe which has no truth whatsoever. You claim that 32 people a week are committing suicide because they've been refused benefits. This is untrue and perhaps if you were to obtain your information from sources other than disgruntled NHS employees on Twitter, you'd be more accurate.

When you get down to it, this is nothing to do with a cruel and uncaring organisation denying benefits to people who, quite clearly, are entitled to them. It's about poor administration and paperwork, often by civil servants who are probably card-carrying members of the Labour Party. It's about claimants themselves who fail to send in the forms and do their bit to ensure that they carry on receiving benefits.

I have no objection whatsoever to genuine case receiving invalidity benefits for the rest of their lives but, I ask you again, do you think it right that once a person has been approved for benefits, that he or she should remain on them for life without any periodic checks that their condition may have improved or even vanished?

Finally, please don't whinge just because some people have disagreed with you. It's not being rude, it's challenging unsubstantiated and in some cases, untrue claims that you have made. I am not suggesting for one minute that you yourself have lied, only that you are guilty of propagating ludicrous 'facts' that you have picked up from various sources. Anyway, I'll give you credit for a whole new theory 'It's on Twitter, so it must be true!' God help us all!


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## and123wills (Jun 27, 2012)

[No message]


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## maingate (Jun 27, 2012)

basildog said:


> The only problem is really that there are some who are registered as disabled who really are not !
> We all know at least one aia think in our lives but most of us probably know more than one !
> I think maybe the term disabled is used in the wrong way these days as some are really only ill or slightly impaired not disabled as most think of the term ?????
> The thing noone is picking up on is who is going to pay for all these people and all the pensions not for today but in 20 to 30 years time and beyond ?
> ...



Are you taking away the Pensioners right to be grumpy????

I dooooon't belieeeeeve it.


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## kimbowbill (Jun 27, 2012)

I found this article interesting reading

British people are committing suicide to escape poverty. Is this what the State wants? | Mail Online

I haven't wrote it so don't attack me, just thought it was interesting


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## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

1
Assumptive David, where does it state genuine cases  end up with more money?

For what it is worth I agree unless obvious to the contradict, a claimant should be reviewed.

Channa


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## afl777 (Jun 27, 2012)

Wait till more becomes common knowledge. 

You no doubt all saw the police protest in London over pensions....well of course you would have done cos it was covered by the media.

Ask yourselves what happened when hundreds of wheelchair users protested in London a couple of months before that.  But you wouldn't have seen anything about that cos it wasn't on any of the news channels.  They were protesting about the savage welfare cuts. 

And shoot me down when I mention that a person is deemed no longer to be 'disabled' just because they are in a wheelchair or because they have lost limbs. 

Such a lot is not yet public knowledge, links are there for a short while then taken down again. A friend is about to send me a You Tube link that has been taken down once but sneekily put back on, have'nt seen it yet. 

It might be interesting with talk of 'lefties' or 'righties'....if there is such a thing as a righty....that the Labour party started the ATOS fiasco going and the Tories gave carried it on. I care not who is running it, as I find all parties to be as bad as each other with lies and deceit, and have no political favourites. 

Me, I got my ATOS letter this morning,,,,yes Im one of the scroungers that should get off my backside and stop being a drain on the taxpayer.....that would be like the taxpayer that i myself was for 40 hard working years. 

If anyone on the planet could fix me so I could get just one good year of earning and having a purpose before i retire next year then I would welcome it. At 48, having been made redundant and thrown onto the scrap heap I retrained as an HGV driver.....so many agencies crying out for class 1 drivers and I thought i was good for years.  With health starting to fail I had to give it up, and it broke my heart, and in an effort go keep working I started my own business. Eventually that had to go, and I lost thousands. Looking back, thousands that would have bought me a very nice camper. Did I choose the camper or work? Work of course. Hard work bought me my house. Hard work bought me everything I have. And does anyone think that I would rather be in constant pain, no life, bored to death, ready to have to now after 40yrs of paying into thd system fight for a pitance to live on........or do you think Id rather have a purpose, a reason to get up in a morning, some self respect and good money coming in again.

I dont know how folks go on that live on benefits for ever.  I certainly couldn't and damn well won't be put through untold stress in a few weeks.  Because not only did I work hard, but I planned various things for retirement time.  

Its not me that I need to fight for, cos I have enough in place from the past to see me right.  Its others me and loads of other are fighting for.


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## kimbowbill (Jun 27, 2012)

afl777 said:


> Wait till more becomes common knowledge.
> 
> You no doubt all saw the police protest in London over pensions....well of course you would have done cos it was covered by the media.
> 
> ...



Hi Ange

i have pressed the like button not that i like what is happening to you but some of your other points.  

The trouble with some on here they are obviously wealthy as they state that in some of their posts, i get sick of hearing one member bang on about how you should re mortgage your property to start a business, and how simple it is, well its not that simple when you have to sell your home to provide care for your elderly father with Alzheimers,  who has been turned down by the state, the very state that he contributed into for all his working life, some people really don't know about life, they can talk clever, but they are just words, you are a nice caring person, maybe you got nowt, but at least your not rude and aggressive like some on here.


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## afl777 (Jun 27, 2012)

I try not to be aggressive but the last few days haven't been good, and to be honest I shouldn't have bitten.

In my twenties, when I lost 2 babies and the father went, I thought it was the end of the world.  Sad to say that those events set me up to be secure now, because if Id have been bringing children up etc I couldn't have done the financial things I did.

The 80s was a boom time for share dealing....and I dabbled enough to make enough to put down half the cost of my house as deposit. Then I worked my butt off to pay off the rest. I threw spare money into pensions and onto the mortgage and dabbled a bit more until the market became unstable.  I virtually did my little house up myself, coming from a family of tradesmen Id learnt a lot from them, and I had a heady mix of full time work, carer for my Mum and bricklaying, plastering, building a kitchen, plumbing and landscaping a building plot sized garden for years.

The HGV on good agency rates brought me in just over £100 per day....being on my own I was happy to do hours that the married drivers couldn't do....and now I would only need to be doing 2or3 days a week to live nicely. 

Plans eh. Some come good, but them some force somewhere judges that one needs to have ones wings clipped and half the plans fall apart.


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

man plans,god laughs.did you see the article about suicidal job seekers upsetting staff at job centres in private eye ?load of lies probably


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## Rubbertramp (Jun 27, 2012)

Northerner said:


> You have no one to blame but yourself if you insist on publishing unsubstantiated tripe which has no truth whatsoever.............
> 
> Finally, please don't whinge just because some people have disagreed with you. It's not being rude, it's challenging unsubstantiated and in some cases, untrue claims that you have made. I am not suggesting for one minute that you yourself have lied, only that you are guilty of propagating ludicrous 'facts' that you have picked up from various sources. Anyway, I'll give you credit for a whole new theory 'It's on Twitter, so it must be true!' God help us all!



Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.

I knowfftopic:..........carry on.


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## herbenny (Jun 27, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.
> 
> I knowfftopic:..........carry on.



Good old fashioned manners ........its good to know it still exists.  Well done RT you hit the nail on the head 

Ps Ange its good that your staying I enjoy your posts


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## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> Some people don't feel they have the aggressive style of conversation to reply to being talked down to in the same way. Perhaps a "with respect" or a "sorry to disagree but," as a prefix to your sentences might help. My mum used to call it good manners, especially when conversing with the fairer sex.
> 
> I knowfftopic:..........carry on.



I don't actually disagree with your sentiments, however some see it has 'fluffy' talk ....going around the houses.
What I would agree on is there is a line between straightforward, and outright rude.being a twat for the sake of it.


Channa


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## Rubbertramp (Jun 27, 2012)

I don't know how one is supposed to know the gender of posters on here unless they put that information in their profiles (Profiles? What are they?). Screen names cannot be taken as any guide to a stranger. You may know your gender but others don't.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> afl777 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## Jojo (Jun 27, 2012)

*I spoke too soon : (*



hamsha said:


> Good to see reasoned debate in a web forum - must admit that my initial reason for reading through was to see how nasty it would get... and (as a newbie to the forum/community) I'm more than pleasantly surprised.


I'm quoting myself to remind myself to wait and see next time. 

When I read online forums I often feel it's a shame that debaters don't seem to understand that everyone's experience and views are different - completely different in many cases - that viewpoints are often not a matter of absolute rights and wrongs. It makes things less painful and destructive to stop and ask oneself, before posting:

have I tried to understand where the other person is coming from, what they're trying to communicate, why they might think as they do?
am I nit-picking or being antagonistic to try and win an argument rather than engage in a discussion?
is there a constructive and exploratory way of phrasing what I want to say so we can all learn something without hurting each other?
what can I learn from the the people willing to discuss this topic... about how other people live, about their experiences, which may be very different from mine?
Of course, if triumph is what you're after, if it makes you feel better, you can dismiss my views right now!


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## runnach (Jun 27, 2012)

hamsha said:


> I'm quoting myself to remind myself to wait and see next time.
> 
> When I read online forums I often feel it's a shame that debaters don't seem to understand that everyone's experience and views are different - completely different in many cases - that viewpoints are often not a matter of absolute rights and wrongs. It makes things less painful and destructive to stop and ask oneself, before posting:
> 
> ...


bollooocs some would rather have a scrap.....go.go.go
My dads bigger than your dad....egos anyway

Sorry what were you sharing?


Channa


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

Rubbertramp said:


> ..........and the daft looking pussycat avatar maybe a clue too



'daft looking pussycat'? christ don't set her off again,took ages to settle her down last time


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## maingate (Jun 27, 2012)

basildog said:


> Yes I find it is the quality of the participants !
> You can certainly tell that they did not learn their debating skills at oxbridge ?
> For some that like to push their standing in educated society I am afraid their roots show through rather too often !



Hey, you cheeky monkey.

I have just had my roots done.

They are NOT showing through !!!


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## Jojo (Jun 27, 2012)

**



basildog said:


> You can certainly tell that they did not learn their debating skills at oxbridge ?


That'll be where the tone of debate in the House of Commons comes from then.. most of them went there. They always sound to me like they're huffing and puffing, trying to blow the house down!

My reading of this whole thread is that people agree that those who need support should get it, those who can work usually want to and are willing, those who can work but won't, should. It's the detail of what 'unable to work' means. and how it's being assessed. that causes outrage. I hope I don't have the misfortune to have to find out the hard way.


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## Jojo (Jun 27, 2012)

basildog said:


> Actually only around 15 percent of MP`s attended Oxbridge !
> Really makes you wonder what sort they now have to admit to their gentlemans clubs ?
> I bet old Winston would be turning in his grave



I wasn't specific enough, sorry... I meant the ones that take up the time and airspace, the ones I hear. This from the Telegraph
_Half of the Cabinet and a third of all MPs went to private school; there are 20 Old Etonians in the Commons, eight of them in the Government. Of the 119 ministers in the Coalition, two thirds were privately educated. [...]
It's not that different on the Opposition benches. A third of Labour's front bench went to Oxford or Cambridge; all the contenders for last year's leadership race went to one of the two universities._​
Pretty sure Winston would be spinning at the silliness of it all. (He wasn't Oxbridge... but Harrow and Sandhurst must have been useful.

I don't mind the clever folks doing all the hard work and late nights (I'm happy to flatter them into it and pay them for it - politics really isn't how I want to spend my own precious time) but I do mind the aggressive, unhelpful rowdiness. I'm sure they'd get further with careful listening and reasoned discussion. But maybe shouting and posturing is more fun.


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## John H (Jun 27, 2012)

hamsha said:


> I'm quoting myself to remind myself to wait and see next time.
> 
> When I read online forums I often feel it's a shame that debaters don't seem to understand that everyone's experience and views are different - completely different in many cases - that viewpoints are often not a matter of absolute rights and wrongs. It makes things less painful and destructive to stop and ask oneself, before posting:
> 
> ...



Speaking as one of those who clearly has strong views on a lot of subjects I totally agree with you. I hope that I am able to understand, debate and communicate in a constructive way with the majority of people, whether they are of similar views to mine or not. I may fail from time to time and I apologise if I have done so. However, I have an in-built radar for bullies (probably from a career in teaching) and I have to admit that when I see bullies operating it is a case of no holds barred with me. There aren't many of them on here but they say a lot - and I am well-known for not letting things go! Consequently, I may upset the observer with what I agree is basically childish behaviour. My only excuse is that I can't stand bigots or bullies.


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

i've been reading about spads,hope you know what they are and what they do cos you're paying for them,quite handsomely


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

how absolutely bloody nice for them,its enough to make me choke on my tin spoon,no wonder they think they're golden


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

a london term for roast potatoes


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## maingate (Jun 27, 2012)

Churchill was a very good speaker and deserves the credit for it.

Many of the best had very little formal education and one of my favourites was Manny Shinwell. He grew up in the Glasgow slums in the early 20th Century, was a bare knuckle boxer (probably to put food on the table).

If it is possible to see any of his speeches then they are worth watching. None of his counterparts on the other side of the house wanted take him on in debate. Aneurin Bevin was another passionate speaker. Back in the day, Shinwell and Bevin were idolised by Labour voters (as Churchill was by Conservatives). How times have changed. :lol-049:


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## n brown (Jun 27, 2012)

no problem with it,just there's a commons commitee looking at them ,as dave promised to have less of them and theres more,about 85.there's excerpts  from an interview with one of them,a young lady who was head of ethics and propriety ,in private eye.that i foumd amusing


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## and123wills (Jun 29, 2012)

LOL do you actually read the posts before commenting i will try and make it more simple for you.

 The disable person has already been assessed not just by their own GP's but by government paid independent doctors over and over again, the problem you have is you dont now the facts, you just conditiond to think somone is having somthing for nothing.

I could go on and on trying to educate you but i feel it would be a futile exercise. 

PS I'm feeling generous tonight so here is a little fact for you only 1% of dla claims are fraudulent.


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## scampa (Jun 29, 2012)

n brown said:


> a london term for roast potatoes



Shouldn't that be "Landan" ??


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## and123wills (Jun 29, 2012)

basildog said:


> The only problem is really that there are some who are registered as disabled who really are not !
> We all know at least one aia think in our lives but most of us probably know more than one !
> I think maybe the term disabled is used in the wrong way these days as some are really only ill or slightly impaired not disabled as most think of the term ?????
> The thing noone is picking up on is who is going to pay for all these people and all the pensions not for today but in 20 to 30 years time and beyond ?
> ...



WHO do you now?????? how are you qualified to now??????????? your views are so sweeping and generalising its laughable, I now a lot of people who suffer from MS for example, they are fine one day and are severely disabled the next!!!!!!!!!!!!! for us lesser mortals perhaps we should have them tattoo MS on their forhead so us less impirial beings can identifi them from scroungers as you can.

In regards to today's pensioners can you tell me if they new that the government would not be able pay them when they started paying into their pension pot??


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## daisymini (Jun 29, 2012)

and123wills said:


> LOL do you actually read the posts before commenting i will try and make it more simple for you.
> 
> The disable person has already been assessed not just by their own GP's but by government paid independent doctors over and over again, the problem you have is you dont now the facts, you just conditiond to think somone is having somthing for nothing.
> 
> ...



Im an honest DlA Claimer who has had it since birth..im sure if i got myself re-assessed i would be entitled to more...but i had to fight for what i have got now, at a young age my mum would never accept charity for me of which she was entitled when i was  a child and as and adult myself i didnt and dont want to claim Ive been brought up to be very independent but i do claim !..My only profession  in my life that i could have got , was a professional patient...Coz everytime i went to college to study wether it was art or more acedemic  subjects I always ended up in hospital..It taught me to be a quitter...I think the only thing in life i will ever complete....will be death..?


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