# gas pipes



## john1974 (Feb 7, 2017)

All, can I utilise plastic gas pipes in my self build, and can I run them (or copper) betwixt the floor? i.e. above the floor and below the ply? I have about15mm within the two..

many thanks
John


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## koi (Feb 8, 2017)

You cant use plastic for gas, if there is a fire it will melt....

You may have thought you have seen plastic, but it is actually copper, coated in plasitc for protection.. 
no problem with where you want to run it.


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## Byronic (Feb 8, 2017)

And securely fix it with clips, saddles or collars @ maximum of 150 mm centres. Because long unsupported lengths = sections likely to work harden under vibration and then crack.


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

Sorry I need to be blunt , if you are asking that question you don't need to be within a mile of gas !!

Channa

( or a mile of me anyway)


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 8, 2017)

It's not being Blunt just stating the obvious, how dangerous will this self build be.

Alf




runnach said:


> To be fair, Channa. While I completely understand your reply to OP. I also think it fair to say, at least John has asked for advice and, as you will know, people do have various degrees of knowledge for certain matters.
> 
> Better to ask, than continue with a dangerous bodge.


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## Robmac (Feb 8, 2017)

Check your insurance.

Mine states that the gas appliances must be fitted by a qualified fitter. Otherwise the policy could be void.


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## hextal (Feb 8, 2017)

You can fit it yourself and get it checked by a gas-safe engineer. That's what I did.

He had some horror stories about installations he'd seen. He said that he obviously has to do all of the checks, but 9 times out of 10 you can tell within seconds of looking at it if it's a fail.


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## mistericeman (Feb 8, 2017)

runnach said:


> I would imagine a DVLA and MOT inspection will root out any dangerous issues?



MOT inspection has naff all to do with any "installation" gas or otherwise.... providing you've not hung the propane bottle off the side of the van causing an 'extraneous surface" etc
DVLA inspection is by pictures and again has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with does it LOOK like a campervan. 

Gas is and can be dangerous along with, insurance issues as above BUT... 
I've seen plenty of stuff done by so called experts that would make a grown man cry....


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## Robmac (Feb 8, 2017)

hextal said:


> You can fit it yourself and get it checked by a gas-safe engineer. That's what I did.
> 
> He had some horror stories about installations he'd seen. He said that he obviously has to do all of the checks, but 9 times out of 10 you can tell within seconds of looking at it if it's a fail.



You are indeed right. A check by a qualified fitter will attain a certificate if all is ok.


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

runnach said:


> To be fair, Channa. While I completely understand your reply to OP. I also think it fair to say, at least John has asked for advice and, as you will know, people do have various degrees of knowledge for certain matters.
> 
> Better to ask, than continue with a dangerous bodge.



Terry you were not born a welder and I wasn't born with gas qualifications. I don't for a second have an issue with people wanting to learn, But I think it is fair comment albeit perhaps brutal in my approach, that sometimes by nature of the question it is obvious the OP is possibly out of his depth or shall we be kind and say over ambitious.

And that is the reason I am as brutal as I am, I would rather hook up with the fella and assist free of any reward than seeing him get it spectacularly wrong and have an installation dangerous to himself family and others.

You have known me long enough I don't have a habitual tendency to criticise simply not the way I work. But when I see questions like this I cant help but be "critical " in my reply.

But I think you understand my sentiments, my post was not to humiliate , but such a basic lack of understanding from the OP needs a wake up call 

Channa


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> You are indeed right. A check by a qualified fitter will attain a certificate if all is ok.


 And has someone that is a qualified fitter If I saw plastic pipes fail It straight away 

Channa


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## n brown (Feb 8, 2017)

i consider a gas certificate for a vehicle a bit futile. great to know your pipework in the kitchen is properly done and the cooker and boiler are safely flued and pressure tested etc. but once that kitchen has done a few miles on tracks or potholed roads, been round corners at 50 and done 70 on a motorway for hours, then would that certificate give you as much peace of mind ? or would you ,a bit naively, assume that a 12month certificate means 12 months peace of mind ?
i prefer the idea of the amateur,basing his fit on answered questions and youtube tutorials,and having a strong and personal desire to preserve the lives of his nearest and dearest, will check his pipework regularly and carefully
just another thing for the insurance companies to hammer and bother us with


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## Deleted member 207 (Feb 8, 2017)

If you have 15mm of floor thickness, you'll only have a 3mm cover over the channel that you put the 1/2" pipe in. I think that over time you'll end up with a fairly unsightly line across your floor, plus you may not be protecting the pipe. I'm assuming you were going to use 1/2" copper and BSP flare fittings?

I've had a van with SS pipe and olive fittings running under the flooring and it was a definite weak spot in the floor and you could see the place where it crossed the floor.

Maybe have a search online and see if you can find some appropriate standards - the Germans have had standards for motorhome fitouts since the 1980s so are well developed but still encourage innovation. 

Personally I quite like the idea of having a "ring main" under the vehicle with pipes branching off to each appliance with a tap just after the pipe enters so that an appliance can be isolated, but the rest can still be operated. But that layout generally uses an lpg tank with a main cutoff valve at the tank.


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

n brown said:


> i consider a gas certificate for a vehicle a bit futile. great to know your pipework in the kitchen is properly done and the cooker and boiler are safely flued and pressure tested etc. but once that kitchen has done a few miles on tracks or potholed roads, been round corners at 50 and done 70 on a motorway for hours, then would that certificate give you as much peace of mind ? or would you ,a bit naively, assume that a 12month certificate means 12 months peace of mind ?
> i prefer the idea of the amateur,basing his fit on answered questions and youtube tutorials,and having a strong and personal desire to preserve the lives of his nearest and dearest, will check his pipework regularly and carefully
> just another thing for the insurance companies to hammer and bother us with


 No different to a MOT a snapshot in time but at least a benchmark, when people are working clueless to that benchmark potential problems 

Channa


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## Robmac (Feb 8, 2017)

n brown said:


> ...............just another thing for the insurance companies to hammer and bother us with



Precisely my point Nigel. In my case, if I ain't got the certificate, I ain't insured. But unless you read the small print, you wouldn't know it. 

Of course the insurance company would prefer that people were blissfully unaware of this until it came to a claim.


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## Deleted member 207 (Feb 8, 2017)

n brown said:


> i consider a gas certificate for a vehicle a bit futile. great to know your pipework in the kitchen is properly done and the cooker and boiler are safely flued and pressure tested etc. but once that kitchen has done a few miles on tracks or potholed roads, been round corners at 50 and done 70 on a motorway for hours, then would that certificate give you as much peace of mind ? or would you ,a bit naively, assume that a 12month certificate means 12 months peace of mind ?
> i prefer the idea of the amateur,basing his fit on answered questions and youtube tutorials,and having a strong and personal desire to preserve the lives of his nearest and dearest, will check his pipework regularly and carefully
> just another thing for the insurance companies to hammer and bother us with



Absolutely and a good reason to ditch copper and use SS pipe with olive compression fittings.


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> Precisely my point Nigel. In my case, if I ain't got the certificate, I ain't insured. But unless you read the small print, you wouldn't know it.
> 
> Of course the insurance company would prefer that people were blissfully unaware of this until it came to a claim.


 EN1947 is the current standard not that difficult to work too... even for those doing self builds 

Channa


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## Robmac (Feb 8, 2017)

channa said:


> EN1947 is the current standard not that difficult to work too... even for those doing self builds
> 
> Channa



My gas fitter came and gave me a quote last Saturday Andy (very reasonable too) , so he's doing the final fit and pressure test in a couple of weeks.


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## mistericeman (Feb 8, 2017)

Roger said:


> Absolutely and a good reason to ditch copper and use SS pipe with olive compression fittings.



Stainless will fracture under vibration just the same as copper if its not supported properly ...olives can and will rattle loose over time if not checked ....

Gas check cert is a good base line for anyones installation ...not bothering with an annual check is down to folks own conscience AND insurance to pick up the pieces after it all goes pear shaped .


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## n brown (Feb 8, 2017)

so if the ins co's want the work done by 'qualified' fitters ie those specifically trained to check m/homes, [ i reckon they're a bit thin on the ground and busy on factory builds ], then maybe they'll contribute to the cost of training up enough to go round- especially as more and more people are doing their own vans for financial reasons


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## mistericeman (Feb 8, 2017)

n brown said:


> so if the ins co's want the work done by 'qualified' fitters ie those specifically trained to check m/homes, [ i reckon they're a bit thin on the ground and busy on factory builds ], then maybe they'll contribute to the cost of training up enough to go round- especially as more and more people are doing their own vans for financial reasons



I want some roofing done and roofers are a tad thin on the ground at the moment .....think I'm contributing to training more ????


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## john1974 (Feb 8, 2017)

wow .erm  thanks all.

not humiliated! I did post this a while ago (yesterday or before) but it only was shown today sometime.. I must say that I am simply trying to find out really about things regarding gas, I am not fitting anything right now, if/when I did I would certainly have it checked, for my peace of mind and others around me, not for box ticking.

At some point in the near future I was hoping to at least safely install some pipework, and not much else, as the floor needs to go in.. 

I asked about the floor question as it did seem to make sense to me using that space.. since then I did look over some standards, albeit non UK, ( I know I know!) and the standard I found described a main line under the vehicle, with feeds off, no joins, an isolating tap in each feed. 150mm clips etc etc..
I has always assumed I would use copper or SS, as I have (some) experience of this.. it was something mentioned to me recently regarding plastic (used in house building?) I have never owned a house, or heard of this, maybe its common for residential.. anyway, it wasn't something I had heard of or really was considering, but I wanted to ask.

regarding other dangers of this self build.. I am doing my best to make sure the base vehicle is safe and running well, that's all I have done so far, non stop since being made redundant in November. I can say this Sevel is probably the most dismantled and restored anywhere! the only part not removed is the windscreen!


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## Robmac (Feb 8, 2017)

n brown said:


> so if the ins co's want the work done by 'qualified' fitters ie those specifically trained to check m/homes, [ i reckon they're a bit thin on the ground and busy on factory builds ], then maybe they'll contribute to the cost of training up enough to go round- especially as more and more people are doing their own vans for financial reasons



Unfortunately Nigel, they don't seem to know is qualified.

My last insurers said that it should be done by Corgi registered fitters, who I believe are not qualified for motorhomes!


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## n brown (Feb 8, 2017)

Robmac said:


> Unfortunately Nigel, they don't seem to know is qualified.
> 
> My last insurers said that it should be done by Corgi registered fitters, who I believe are not qualified for motorhomes!


 sadly the only corgis left these days are in Buck House. used to be the ins cos would demand an engineer's report for a self build, but didn't seem to understand there were different types of engineer. i once offered to get one off a civil engineer and the girl said fine !


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## Byronic (Feb 8, 2017)

Roger said:


> If you have 15mm of floor thickness, you'll only have a 3mm cover over the channel that you put the 1/2" pipe in. I think that over time you'll end up with a fairly unsightly line across your floor, plus you may not be protecting the pipe. I'm assuming you were going to use 1/2" copper and BSP flare fittings?



Most motorhome/caravan convertors and manufacturers use 8mm DIA.copper pipe, and the appropriate fittings and appliances. Problems arise when attempts are made in combining Imperial 5/16ths and the 8mm "near' equivalent.


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## runnach (Feb 8, 2017)

runnach said:


> I wouldn't fancy stainless myself, for reasons you mention. When I had my old T25, I had to reroute some mini bore copper pipe, rather than having straight  compression joint fittings, I swagged copper, then silver soldered joints. Only fittings were at appliance end of pipe run.



I prefer copper too, when I did my aircon ticket I had to braze compressions not allowed ....the instructors cut open the joint to make sure it is correct ..so swaging, crimp joints were part of the ticket part of the exam tested with OFN to 350 psi ...To keep my hand in not that I do much nowadays on a gas system I would far rather braze than use compression joints. support the joints accordingly . I think too a better way of constructing a robust system 

Channa


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## eddyt (Feb 8, 2017)

hi
  i dont think your allowed compression fittings under floors or in
  cavities they have to be soldered. compression fittings are only
  to be used in the open.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 8, 2017)

runnach said:


> Corgi died years ago, Rob. Gas Sake is the new bling word, a domestic gas fitter can do you conversion, to tick all the boxes, he has to have his LPG ticket. Guy I work with, he has them all, including oil.



I don't know if it applies to MH but just having a standard LPG ticket does not allow them to make out Safety Certs for mobile caterers. They must have a LPG Mobile Catering ticket. So you would think there must be a difference due to the mobile part. We have our van done at the same time as our mobile coffee van. They seem to be thin on the ground that can do mobile.


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## Byronic (Feb 9, 2017)

runnach said:


> I wouldn't fancy stainless myself, for reasons you mention. When I had my old T25, I had to reroute some mini bore copper pipe, rather than having straight  compression joint fittings, I swagged copper, then silver soldered joints. Only fittings were at appliance end of pipe run.



NO soldered joints allowed in mobile applications. Considered brittle and liable to vibration cracking. 
The reason I stated using 8mm OD copper is because many fittings and appliances used in the caravan industry have 8mm connection, saves using a conversion connection eg 10mmX8mm, one less joint. Some vans with large gas demands may be fitted with 10mm systems.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 9, 2017)

Byronic said:


> NO soldered joints allowed in mobile applications. Considered brittle and liable to vibration cracking.
> The reason I stated using 8mm OD copper is because many fittings and appliances used in the caravan industry have 8mm connection, saves using a conversion connection eg 10mmX8mm, one less joint. Some vans with large gas demands may be fitted with 10mm systems.





Such as that could well be why there is a difference between a standard LPG cert and mobile cert. What this thread has shown is that it is a bit of a minefield .


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## Byronic (Feb 9, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> Such as that could well be why there is a difference between a standard LPG cert and mobile cert. What this thread has shown is that it is a bit of a minefield .



Unless specifically trained you could say that. The thing is there's no real harm in giving it a go, after reading all the advice given on the forum and sifting the good from the bad by double checking googling etc. 
BUT and it's a big BUT! Get the installation looked over if possible by someone at least well experienced, but preferably authorised/qualified/competent  ie permitted to carry out the work as a profession, to issue a certificate of safety compliance he'll have Public Liability Insurance. If it all blows up....as in minefield, then at least your conscience will be clear!


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## runnach (Feb 9, 2017)

To work on motor homes and caravans you need NO qualifications whatsoever. Unless that van is being used for hire and reward. A coffee van is used for reward ?

Anyway most engineers are Acop however acop which is an old system cant work on Statics or Motorhomes for hire and reward.

To that you need a ACS card, who I believe are franchised to gas safe.

The basic module is LPG, which covers things like bulk tanks in gardens etc. Then there are more specialist modules LAV being the one to look out for which is leisure accommodation vehicles.

 The reason for the seperate modules is ventilation requirements are different in LAV for example also different pressures.

A separate module is required for boats. for the same reasons they don't float to well with drop holes in the Hull

In my mind, and to avoid confusion when a insurance company ask for fully qualified fitters I would play safe use someone ACS with LAV accreditation. What you will find is a lot of these lads are GAS SAFE too. they have expanded their qualification base 

Channa ex Acop  lpg LAV


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## Byronic (Feb 9, 2017)

runnach said:


> Depends what type of soldering you are referring to?



Well, please enlighten us to what types of soldering are recommended for installation on a motorhome, would silver soldering as you have suggested be one of those methods?
Hope you're correct will save unnecessary expense, might be difficult to achieve in the confines of a motorhome though.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 9, 2017)

Robmac said:


> My gas fitter came and gave me a quote last Saturday Andy (very reasonable too) , so he's doing the final fit and pressure test in a couple of weeks.





runnach said:


> I had a quick work with our Gas Safe delivery and assessor, he has LPG and, as you have pointed out Faz, testing/checking mobile stuff as you outlined are extras, basically more £££££'s to have the add on's added to individual gas safe certificate.



Did he say if there were any different checks / tests for mobile that he knows of as against fixed installations. ie some one can do a gas safety cert for a Fish and chip Shop, but not a Fish and Chip van. Or is it just the case of if you want to be able to make out mobile certs it will just cost more £s to be able to do so and most don't pay it as they don't think they will ever work on mobile. If so I wonder how it would effect such as Rob if insurances want to see a safety cert.
It could become more and more of a requirement due to the large increase in self builds in recent years.

Is your gas fitter going to issue you with a Safety Cert Rob or is he just checking and testing.?


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## Robmac (Feb 9, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> .............Is your gas fitter going to issue you with a Safety Cert Rob or is he just checking and testing.?



I am fixing the appliances in place and he is doing the pipework from the regulator to a manifold and then to the appliances. He will then do the pressure test, and providing I have all of the drop out vents in place under the appliances, he will issue a certificate.

He said that further drop out vents would be required for anywhere in the pipework where there is a joint, which we will add as he does the fitting.

He did show me his card, but I can't remember what the qualification was, but he assures me it is the correct one. But I am confident, he does have a very good name locally, is *very *meticulous and has done excellent work for me before.


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## runnach (Feb 9, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> Did he say if there were any different checks / tests for mobile that he knows of as against fixed installations. ie some one can do a gas safety cert for a Fish and chip Shop, but not a Fish and Chip van. Or is it just the case of if you want to be able to make out mobile certs it will just cost more £s to be able to do so and most don't pay it as they don't think they will ever work on mobile. If so I wonder how it would effect such as Rob if insurances want to see a safety cert.
> It could become more and more of a requirement due to the large increase in self builds in recent years.
> 
> Is your gas fitter going to issue you with a Safety Cert Rob or is he just checking and testing.?



It is all to do with modules and £££'s Fazer.  For example a 3 way gas operated fridge is a separate module, Because someone is LPG LAV doesn't mean they haave the ticket for the fridge 

Channa


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## runnach (Feb 9, 2017)

Robmac said:


> I am fixing the appliances in place and he is doing the pipework from the regulator to a manifold and then to the appliances. He will then do the pressure test, and providing I have all of the drop out vents in place under the appliances, he will issue a certificate.
> 
> He said that further drop out vents would be required for anywhere in the pipework where there is a joint, which we will add as he does the fitting.
> 
> He did show me his card, but I can't remember what the qualification was, but he assures me it is the correct one. But I am confident, he does have a very good name locally, is *very *meticulous and has done excellent work for me before.


 You see here is another example of why you need the LAV module over and above base LPG, Ventilation falls under EN721 regs totally different to a domestic property 

Channa


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## malagaoth (Feb 9, 2017)

why would you even need joints in the pipe run?
8mm pipe comes in long rolls the only joints needed are at the ends


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 9, 2017)

One of the reasons for using the Manifold Isolator pipe runs can be made without joints,   my own preference is for all pipe runs be it water or gas to be visible this saves potential damage and all pipes easy checked for leaks etc

Alf




runnach said:


> I never said what types are required. I mentioned what I did when I had my old T25, I used silver solder, which is basically brazing, against soft soldering. Former are strong joints and offer flexibility, especially within the confines of a MH/Camper.
> 
> Obviously pipes runs would have ease of access where possible and, if really difficult, I would use a mirror to assist with achieving a sound joint. Ant areas subjected to heat/flame exposure, would be suitably protected. Like any hot work, RA put in place, including fire watch after hot work cease. An easy task if one is doing the work themselves, my fire watch period would be while tidying away tools and equipment.


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## Byronic (Feb 9, 2017)

runnach said:


> I never said what types are required. I mentioned what I did when I had my old T25, I used silver solder, which is basically brazing, against soft soldering. Former are strong joints and offer flexibility, especially within the confines of a MH/Camper..



If you had stated hard silver solder or silver brazing that would have made a difference.  Assuming the van still exists and the present owner has to present his insurer with a Gas Safety Cert. what does he tell the tester when asked 'is that hard silver solder in that there joint or is it some soft silver solder from Maplins?' In a professionally constructed vehicle I assume he'd take it for granted that the van was built to the appropriate standards.
But could be a potential problem for a DIY somebody considering emulating this      jointing method.


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## mistericeman (Feb 9, 2017)

Frankly most pro built units will have single lengths as much as possible with suitable compression fitting where not OR to taps etc ....seldom a need to join two straight lengths on a van the runs are that short ...

Try dragging 50m of 5/8 diameter pipes to get from a indoor aircon unit to the outdoor .....and joints will be swaged and brazed whilst being purged with OFN before being pressure tested to over 500 psi


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

mistericeman said:


> Frankly most pro built units will have single lengths as much as possible with suitable compression fitting where not OR to taps etc ....seldom a need to join two straight lengths on a van the runs are that short ...



Single unjointed lengths as is possible, for sure. I've seen DIY conversions where compression fittings have been used (particularly on bends) purely because of the difficulty of manipulating pipe runs in the confines of a van or it's furniture. The professional would most likely form a bend insitu using bare hands. Installing gas pipe runs in a van can be a PITA for someone wanting a professional standard finish, but isn't a gas professional, such as myself.


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## mistericeman (Feb 10, 2017)

runnach said:


> These are far better than for bending micro/mini bore copper pipe, using bare hands, one will more than likely kink the pipe. I have a set of Rothenberger small bore pipe benders, handy tools to have.




I've the same for small bore fridge pipe and brake pipes.... 

And a set of hydraulic ones for bigger stuff


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

runnach said:


> These are far better than for bending micro/mini bore copper pipe, using bare hands, one will more than likely kink the pipe. I have a set of Rothenberger small bore pipe benders, handy tools to have.



I have something similar, but they can't at times be used in tight spaces sic. as found in vans.  This is where I've seen the pro's thread straight pipe lengths and bend as they go, with no kinks. Particularly useful when renewing pipework, minimises hassle of removing furniture. Even getting from manifold to appliance can involve 3 bends, not easy to do this on a bench and then install the nicely formed run where its supposed to go! Not for me at least!


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## Deleted member 52918 (Feb 10, 2017)

I have the gas pipe install coming up on my van this year, I'm going to use 8mm Cunifer pipe. Blurb says, it doesn't suffer from work hardening or cracking due to vibration. Also has a far higher working pressure than copper.
It's used as fuel delivery pipe on high performance vehicles.

I used to work in the gas industry so have seen my share of DIY nightmares.

EG., I went to a house where the owner had a gas leak on his fire, I got there & had quite a shock when I saw what he'd done.
He'd removed the chimney breast in his basement to install his fire & left it hanging with no support whatsoever!!
I told him he should get out & that there was no way that I was going anywhere near that until it was made safe & I turned off the gas at the main & stuck a dangerous installation notice on it!

Phoned HQ & they took it from there.

Just imagine 3 or 4 tons of bricks hanging above where your going to work, would you do it?

Phill


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

time4T, there doesn't appear to be any negative safety implications involved  in using Cunifer, and as you say some advantages, but have you overlooked the fact that after the regulator gas pressure is only around 30mbar, you could blow harder than that!


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## Robmac (Feb 10, 2017)

Byronic said:


> time4T, there doesn't appear to be any negative safety implications involved  in using Cunifer, and as you say some advantages, but have you overlooked the fact that after the regulator gas pressure is only around 30mbar, you could blow harder than that!



What mbar is the pressure test?

I believe it is many times higher, although I don't suppose it would blow the pipes.


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## runnach (Feb 10, 2017)

Robmac said:


> What mbar is the pressure test?
> 
> I believe it is many times higher, although I don't suppose it would blow the pipes.


 50 mbar with air 

If I read the question right 

Channa


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## Robmac (Feb 10, 2017)

channa said:


> 50 mbar with air
> 
> If I read the question right
> 
> Channa



You do Andy. 

I thought my fitter said 500!! My memory ain't so good these days.


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## runnach (Feb 10, 2017)

Robmac said:


> You do Andy.
> 
> I thought my fitter said 500!! My memory ain't so good these days.



Nor mine !! ....I too am working from memory, I am pretty sure we tested to 50 mbar with air, Once gas gets involved you soundness test by dropping the pressure to 20 mbar. after stabilisation all appliances isolated it is a pipework test and no drop allowed .

Channa


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## runnach (Feb 10, 2017)

channa said:


> Nor mine !! ....I too am working from memory, I am pretty sure we tested to 50 mbar with air, Once gas gets involved you soundness test by dropping the pressure to 20 mbar. after stabilisation all appliances isolated it is a pipework test and no drop allowed .
> 
> Channa



Here is the weird bit Rob permissable pressure drops in technical memorandum 83 from the LPG gas association differ from a motor caravan, a pVC and a tourer....another reason why LAV's require a separate ticket for gas testing 

Channa


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## mistericeman (Feb 10, 2017)

Milibar.... pahhhh 

Try 27 bar (around 400psi) of nitrogen... mind this Condensor failed a lot lot lower than that.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 10, 2017)

mistericeman said:


> Milibar.... pahhhh
> 
> Try 27 bar (around 400psi) of nitrogen... mind this Condensor failed a lot lot lower than that.



27 bar ,,,,,pahhhhh at the pit we were working with hydraulic pressures at 1,836 bar or back then 27,000 psi. 

Any advances.


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## mistericeman (Feb 10, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> 27 bar ,,,,,pahhhhh at the pit we were working with hydraulic pressures at 1,836 bar or back then 27,000 psi.
> 
> Any advances.



Air driven cutters/drills etc??


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## Fazerloz (Feb 10, 2017)

mistericeman said:


> Air driven cutters/drills etc??



No air driven stuff was only  6 / 7 bar , 100psi . The figures I gave were for using hydraulic nuts.


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

Robmac said:


> What mbar is the pressure test?
> 
> I believe it is many times higher, although I don't suppose it would blow the pipes.



They do a leak test with a manometer. I don't know of mandatory pressure testing for low pressure gas supply as used for motorhomes. 
But think.of it this way 30mbar X 33 would give you about 1 bar that is 14.7lbs per sq. inch not even enough to properly inflate a bike tyre. So it's your guess over how much pressure would be required to burst thin wall 8mm copper pipe but let me know if you try!


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

I have to start a new post due to letterbox 3 line typing window on goddam 7 inch tablet can hardly see a thing not helped by the Spanish sun!

What I'm saying of course is that the test and checks are for leaks on a low press. system. Why would a pressure test be necessary on a very low pressure system, it's taken for granted that the recommended components being used are well and truly tested and.have been for years. 
Having said that I do a 2 or 3 bar test on my van with a bit of rubber hose and a tyre valve at the regulator end and check for drop over 5 minute period any longer and then temperature changes may affect result.


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## Fazerloz (Feb 10, 2017)

Byronic said:


> I have to start a new post due to letterbox 3 line typing window on goddam 7 inch tablet can hardly see a thing not helped by the Spanish sun!
> 
> What I'm saying of course is that the test and checks are for leaks on a low press. system. Why would a pressure test be necessary on a very low pressure system, it's taken for granted that the recommended components being used are well and truly tested and.have been for years.
> Having said that I do a 2 or 3 bar test on my van with a bit of rubber hose and a tyre valve at the regulator end and check for drop over 5 minute period any longer and then temperature changes may affect result.



I have done the very same myself and have found the first thing to start leaking are the valve stems on the hob and oven .


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## Robmac (Feb 10, 2017)

Byronic said:


> They do a leak test with a manometer. I don't know of mandatory pressure testing for low pressure gas supply as used for motorhomes.
> But think.of it this way 30mbar X 33 would give you about 1 bar that is 14.7lbs per sq. inch not even enough to properly inflate a bike tyre. So it's your guess over how much pressure would be required to burst thin wall 8mm copper pipe but let me know if you try!



NOooo!, I won't be trying anything.

I'll leave it all to the fitter and take his word for it!


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 10, 2017)

I have a Gaslow Gauge connected to my regulator every now and again I will check the reading on the Gauge ensure all Isolating taps are off and keep a check on the Gauge reading it allows me to test my system whenever I feel like it.


01-1620 Gaslow W20 Propane Gas Gauge & Adapter for 30mbar Regulator For Sale at The Gaslow Centre


Alf


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

Fazerloz said:


> I have done the very same myself and have found the first thing to start leaking are the valve stems on the hob and oven .



I don't imagine that this is any substitute for a proper manometer test though as that would show  the slightest leak. My tyre pressure gauge isn't finely calibrated enough to show very small but potentially dangerous leaks. But OK when  I was checking suspicious solenoid valve seals hadn't dropped off in the water heater and the space heater before letting gas through.


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

Alf said:


> I have a Gaslow Gauge connected to my regulator every now and again I will check the reading on the Gauge ensure all Isolating taps are off and keep a check on the Gauge reading it allows me to test my system whenever I feel like it.
> Alf



Alf, before you rely on this, I would check first with Gaslow. Most of these gauges measure gas remaining in bottle or leakage between bottle and the low pressure side of the system, not for the low pressure side itself.
I'd be happy to find myself corrected on this.
Good idea if you come back to the thread if you can confirm yeah or nay.


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## mistericeman (Feb 10, 2017)

In fairness at 30/37 milibar ....any small leak is unlikely to show on an average gas level gauge ....youd need something much more closely calibrated ....let alone the fact that changes in temp will affect the pressure .

Thats why we use OFN (Oxygen free Nitrogen) to test with as its less susceptible to temp change and much more stable .


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 10, 2017)

Once the bottle is turned on and the system pressurised the bottle is turned off any leak on the system will cause the gauge to drop is this not correct !! or am I missing something.

Alf
Ps better than a once a year check on gas leaks as it can be done as and when you require.






Byronic said:


> Alf, before you rely on this, I would check first with Gaslow. Most of these gauges measure gas remaining in bottle or leakage between bottle and the low pressure side of the system, not for the low pressure side itself.
> I'd be happy to find myself corrected on this.
> Good idea if you come back to the thread if you can confirm yeah or nay.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 10, 2017)

Byronic
Have a read at the Gaslow W20 regulator I have used one of these for nearly 20 years. You can move from van to van

Alf

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/...Gaslow_Products/Gaslow_W20_Regulator_Adapters




Byronic said:


> Alf, before you rely on this, I would check first with Gaslow. Most of these gauges measure gas remaining in bottle or leakage between bottle and the low pressure side of the system, not for the low pressure side itself.
> I'd be happy to find myself corrected on this.
> Good idea if you come back to the thread if you can confirm yeah or nay.


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## runnach (Feb 10, 2017)

Alf said:


> Once the bottle is turned on and the system pressurised the bottle is turned off any leak on the system will cause the gauge to drop is this not correct !! or am I missing something.
> 
> Alf
> Ps better than a once a year check on gas leaks as it can be done as and when you require.



In an ideal world you are correct, But occasionally you see the manometer rise, regulator letting by ? ....not necessarily the case simply gas expanding in the pipework ...You know as well as I do the reason for a stabilisation period ....the problem is gas hasn't read read the rule book so you have to take a considered judgement 

When I was testing in France a nightmare, the ambient could change 5 degrees in an hour early morning for fun

Channa


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## Byronic (Feb 10, 2017)

Alf said:


> Byronic
> Have a read at the Gaslow W20 regulator I have used one of these for nearly 20 years. You can move from van to van
> 
> Alf
> ]



From what I've heard it's reckoned that small leaks are difficult to determine due to the very small area shown by the red sector on a small dial over the 15 minute period specified by Gaslow, Leaving it overnight might be better but I suppose other factors may come into play, eg pressure change due to temp. change (Boyles Law)


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 10, 2017)

Pressuring the pipework and leaving overnight or several hours perhaps with a journey in between gives me satisfaction to note whether the system has dropped its pressure.

Gaslow recommend it and it's worked for me for 20 years.

Going between yearly habitation checks with no gas check is not for me in a motor caravan in regular use all year round on UK roads, this method is something a unqualified person is caperble of doing. 


Alf


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## Byronic (Feb 11, 2017)

Alf said:


> Pressuring the pipework and leaving overnight or several hours perhaps with a journey in between gives me satisfaction to note whether the system has dropped its pressure.
> 
> Gaslow recommend it and it's worked for me for 20 years.
> 
> Going between yearly habitation checks with no gas check is not for me in a motor caravan in regular use all year round on UK roads, this method is something a unqualified person is caperble of doing. Alf



I have read the Gaslow Leak Testing instructions. I can see perhaps where some people have a few doubts. Gaslow say leave for 5 minutes if the red sector shows then you have a leak. Then it goes on to say if left for some time (doesn't say how long, every system differs) then red sector will show. Suggesting every system leaks to some extent.

What I think some people are doing is waiting 5 minutes no red comes up and they think everything is OK, then they leave it for however long and they then see the red sector and then think crickey better see Mr Gas Safe or start renewing everything.
As far as I'm aware I don't think there's any substitute for the industry standard manometer test.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 11, 2017)

My gauge generally takes 2 to 3 days to drop sooner if an appliance is turnedon.

But any check that could be done dailey by a non professional is a benefit.

Alf




Byronic said:


> I have read the Gaslow Leak Testing instructions. I can see perhaps where some people have a few doubts. Gaslow say leave for 5 minutes if the red sector shows then you have a leak. Then it goes on to say if left for some time (doesn't say how long, every system differs) then red sector will show. Suggesting every system leaks to some extent.
> 
> What I think some people are doing is waiting 5 minutes no red comes up and they think everything is OK, then they leave it for however long and they then see the red sector and then think crickey better see Mr Gas Safe or start renewing everything.
> As far as I'm aware I don't think there's any substitute for the industry standard manometer test.


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