# Solar charge controller - load terminals - what practical use in a MH ?



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 14, 2018)

Hello Team,

I'm aware that there are countless threads that mention solar panels and charge controllers here and elsewhere, but my question is specifically aimed at the terminals on my MPPT Solar charge controller (or any other PV controller) that provides a pair of LOAD terminals.

I am currently half way through removing the PV-Elecktroblock charge controller (LR1218) along with a Victron battery monitor (BMV-700).
Replacing these with  a Victron MPPT Blue Solar charge controller and a NASA BM1 battery monitor. 

Reasons in a nutshell, the victron battery monitor is too complex & too small - I need the reading specs on and the handbook handy to get any info from it. The LR1218 is an 18A device, the replacement Victron unit can manage 40A, If you have sufficient panels to feed it this much. The NASA BM1 battery monitor is old scrote friendly with big numbers that I can read without specs.

My overall objective is to get my battery bank up to around 400 Ah to lengthen the periods that I spend off-grid.
The mppt and monitor are contributes to this.

After being previously educated by members here on this topic, today I am part-way through this upgrade and I am pondering what use can I find for the load terminals and wondering, how they could provide me with a useful function, over what I already have.

Secondly, are the load terminals "dead" at night, when the panels are inactive (dark) or does the pv controller "back-feed" to the load terminals from the leisure battery at all times, providing the battery has capacity ?

My 3 way fridge is already catered for, so are all of my existing needs, lights, 12v appliances etc..

The only practical use I can think of is to use them to feed into a 12v to 12v charger and hook them into my engine battery so that the sunshine tops up the starter battery.

How can these be used in the motorhome ?

What do you use them for ? - Any novel ideas ?

Thanks for reading and more so with constructive feedback.

james


----------



## wildebus (Mar 14, 2018)

What Victron Charge Controller are you looking at?
You mentioned it is one that can handle upto 40A, but it is only the very smallest Victron Controllers have a "Load" Output.
Just thought worth clarifying as it might make the general question a bit redundant? (unless it is an older unit before they dropped that feature?)

Generally speaking, they tend to be active only when there is power to the panels and a popular use (on the few occasions they get used) is to drive auxilary cooling fans for a fridge for example (as they will go off at night automatically when it would get cooler anyway)


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 14, 2018)

wildebus said:


> What Victron Charge Controller are you looking at?
> You mentioned it is one that can handle upto 40A, but it is only the very smallest Victron Controllers have a "Load" Output.
> Just thought worth clarifying as it might make the general question a bit redundant? (unless it is an older unit before they dropped that feature?)
> 
> Generally speaking, they tend to be active only when there is power to the panels and a popular use (on the few occasions they get used) is to drive auxilary cooling fans for a fridge for example (as they will go off at night automatically when it would get cooler anyway)



The victron unit and the BM1 are pictured below, this is progress-to-date, the hardware is in place and it is part wired, should be completed tomorrow.
The unit doesn't have a model number that I can see.

If the victron unit fails to meet expectations, I've lost nothing if I need to buy a current model.

james

The mppt controller is new-old stock, it's been in a locker for a few years.


----------



## wildebus (Mar 14, 2018)

I am sure it will still do the biz   no point in changing it for the newer model if it works :dance:

Still don't think the "Load" output is a great deal of use


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 14, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I am sure it will still do the biz   no point in changing it for the newer model if it works :dance:
> 
> Still don't think the "Load" output is a great deal of use



Neither do I, hence the questions posed. 

I'm tending towards trickle charging the starter battery via a 12v to 12v charger as I suspect that, by removing the LR1218 Elektroblock unit, I also removed the solar charging of said engine battery.

The next stage is to decide on battery upgrades - which is discussed in an earlier thread of mine on here.

Thanks for the input.

james


----------



## Nabsim (Mar 14, 2018)

If your LR1218 was connected to an EBL then it was already charging your starter battery, or at least it does on some but I dont know about all. You can get a lead for the Victron units to connect to an EBL, the advantage being the EBL is already handling charging leisure and starter batteries. Downside it I dont think older EBL's will handle 40Amps.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 14, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> If your LR1218 was connected to an EBL then it was already charging your starter battery, or at least it does on some but I dont know about all. You can get a lead for the Victron units to connect to an EBL, the advantage being the EBL is already handling charging leisure and starter batteries. Downside it I dont think older EBL's will handle 40Amps.



Thanks Neil, the ebl.as you say is limited to 20a, I am upgrading to a 40a mppt controller to overcome this limitation.
Elecktroblock charge controller (LR1218) that I have just removed has the cable assembly with it, so I have removed the solar-starter battery charging.

looks like I now know what to do with the load terminals.



james


----------



## Nabsim (Mar 14, 2018)

Better than mine, I think its a 15 amp fuse for the solar connection on my EBL. Can't decide if I should do similar to you or not when I get round to having solar but I have time yet 

What are you going to do with the load terminals then, trickle charge starter battery or fridge fan?


----------



## molly 2 (Mar 14, 2018)

I had a stecca controller the load output could be turned on and off ,and programmed to switch  on and off  at night  .


----------



## QFour (Mar 14, 2018)

I have one in the shed in the garden with a solar panel connected. Charges the 12v car battery up during the day and then at 5pm it switches the output on which is fed to a motion detector. If you walk towards the shed after 5pm and before 8am then the shed lights come on. These controllers are programmable and are basically all the same. You can have any 12v item connected. You can also program them to come on only when the solar panel is producing power.


----------



## QFour (Mar 14, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> Better than mine, I think its a 15 amp fuse for the solar connection on my EBL. Can't decide if I should do similar to you or not when I get round to having solar but I have time yet
> 
> What are you going to do with the load terminals then, trickle charge starter battery or fridge fan?



That does not work as the load terminal can provide 10A which is hardly a trickle charge. What you need is the TWIN output version that connects to both batteries. Programable so that the main leisure battery gets most of charge and if anything left over it goes to the starter battery.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 15, 2018)

QFour said:


> That does not work as the load terminal can provide 10A which is hardly a trickle charge. What you need is the TWIN output version that connects to both batteries. Programable so that the main leisure battery gets most of charge and if anything left over it goes to the starter battery.



CAN provide up to 10A - that is enough to warrant adding a trickle charger to the engine battery.

The engine battery will only pull what it needs, given that it should be fully charged from driving, once I get parked up and off-grid the solar will make sure it stays full.
There are some functions that operate off  the engine battery, such as the alarm, radio, drivers cab lights etc, so it sees a small drain when stationary.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Mar 15, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> Better than mine, I think its a 15 amp fuse for the solar connection on my EBL. Can't decide if I should do similar to you or not when I get round to having solar but I have time yet
> 
> What are you going to do with the load terminals then, trickle charge starter battery or fridge fan?



I think I'll use the load function to feed a battery charger to keep the engine battery full.

james


----------



## Nabsim (Mar 15, 2018)

I used to have a small solar panel that I left on my bike for a while to just keep a small charge going in the battery (was a BMW K1100lts with electric clock) Bike stood outside so could get very cold in winter and prolonged downtime but panel was enough to keep battery up. Worked until a particularly windy night when it got blown away 

Bike battery was a lot smaller but a fair AH for a bike and panel was only 1.5amp I think so I would be happy that 10amp would keep it topped up. Does depend what you have drawing down from it when off though I know


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 17, 2018)

*Question: MPPT Load terminals & EBL 100B socket 7*

Does anyone have experience with using the EBL 100 (Elektroblock) Block 7 input terminals ?

Looking at the circuit diagram, there is currently vacant Block 7 input port that is designated as an Zusatzladegerat with a 20A fuse socket. As I understand it, this is a provision for adding an addition charger into the system.

So unless I am missing something from my calculus, I can simply route a pair of cables from the MPPT load terminals and connect these to the EBL block 7 inputs and et voila, I have the solar excess power available for the EBL and hence the facility to charge the engine battery via the EBL.

This negates my provisional plan to install a battery to battery charger, while simplifying the installation and saving  the (high) cost of a B2B charger.

Any views on this ?

Ta, james


----------



## wildebus (May 17, 2018)

FringeDweller said:


> Does anyone have experience with using the EBL 100 (Elektroblock) Block 7 input terminals ?
> 
> Looking at the circuit diagram, there is currently vacant Block 7 input port that is designated as an Zusatzladegerat with a 20A fuse socket. As I understand it, this is a provision for adding an addition charger into the system.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about the EBL but my view on your plan is that it makes good sense in principle 

As a temporary measure, I have actually been charging my starter battery via a Mains Charger connected to an Inverter that is powered by the leisure battery! 
The inverter could be a really low power one (most mains chargers use very little wattage) and potentially powered off the Load output - this would give you a managed charge profile as well for the starter.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 17, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I don't know much about the EBL but my view on your plan is that it makes good sense in principle
> 
> As a temporary measure, I have actually been charging my starter battery via a Mains Charger connected to an Inverter that is powered by the leisure battery!



That'll work but is inefficient, with power being wasted in the inverter. But, as you allude, it's a temporary measure.

james


----------



## Nabsim (May 18, 2018)

On my EBL100-2 block 7 is the input connector for adding an additional battery charger (I added a second Schaudt unit to this as battery bank was way bigger than charger could cope with)


----------



## wildebus (May 18, 2018)

FringeDweller said:


> That'll work but is inefficient, with power being wasted in the inverter. But, as you allude, it's a temporary measure.
> 
> james



People have this idea of Inverters being very wasteful.  I don't sign up to that (and my opinion is based on monitoring the power and not just the hype)

My victron inverter off-load uses about 2W.  My inverter is on 24/7 anyway feeding the 230V fridge and Network router and Booster which means very very little additional wasted power when driving the mains charger 

(I was back to 100% SOC by 9:30 this morning (my low overnight is typically 95% with a constant 40W draw from the various devices, jumping to 75W 2 or 3 times an hour as the fridge clicks on) and both my inverters were on overnight - the Victron on feeding the always -on stuff, ands the 2500W one feeding nothing right now (forget to turn it off yesterday after it was driving the Alexa Echo))


----------



## Beemer (May 18, 2018)

I have recently upgraded my regulator to a 20A MPPT item and included a standalone monitor, with a view to add a solar panel to my current 100A panel.
There is a programmable Load ouput on the MPPT, which I do not use, but as I understand, this can be used when the panel is not "active" as the Load supply comes from the battery(s).
I am yet to test this theory though.


----------



## oldish hippy (May 18, 2018)

Could you not use the load out put when battery are full to heat water that way it save on gas and provides some use from the spare electricty  unles you are like ed on toast who put it into trees for storage till later that what he said at hereford lol


----------



## BKen2 (May 18, 2018)

Run my fridge cooling fans and controller off my Aux Solar Controller


----------



## quilkin (May 18, 2018)

My load output is connected to_ all_ my 12V equipment - lights, fridge, USB sockets etc. The output is 'live' whether or not there is any input from the solar panels. By doing this, I can also monitor how much power I am using, from the data output connection (or via bluetooth). So I can compare how much power I'm using with how much the panels are generating.
Another use of the load output is to prevent the batteries discharging too much. More details here, scroll down to 'Load Output'.


----------



## wildebus (May 19, 2018)

quilkin said:


> My load output is connected to_ all_ my 12V equipment - lights, fridge, USB sockets etc. The output is 'live' whether or not there is any input from the solar panels. By doing this, I can also monitor how much power I am using, from the data output connection (or via bluetooth). So I can compare how much power I'm using with how much the panels are generating.
> Another use of the load output is to prevent the batteries discharging too much. More details here, scroll down to 'Load Output'.



I think this feature is fairly specific to the Victron MPPT Controller, and then only the ones that have a load connection (most of them don't).
I would also guess you are limited in current draw to the spec of the Controller as well? 15A or 20A maximum? So would have to be careful on what you are running simultaneously.

Neat idea if you are within those specs though.

The Victron kit is really nice for monitoring what is going on.
This is a graph of my consumption in the last 24hrs and where the power is coming from (solar or battery)


Screenshot_20180519-084614 by David, on Flickr

And same time period, showing what the solar has harvested and how it is being used


Screenshot_20180519-084637 by David, on Flickr


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 26, 2018)

Jays said:


> Forgive my ignorance.
> Does not keep switching power to the starter battery dull the life of that battery as you making a signature of drop to 90% and I charge to 100%?or can you set the discharge limit before charging?



Not sure that I understand your question.

I've configured my MPPT controller to ignore the EBL and hence the engine battery is not in my equation. (currently)

The MPPT unit is wired directly to the leisure batteries and has excess / spare power that is tapped via the LOAD terminals. 

The EBL has a facility on Block 7 to input an "auxilliary charging unit", so I connected the LOAD terminals to here but it seemed ineffective, non-operational (yes, I added a 20A fuse into the EBL designated slot.) to no effect.

I will also try to use the EBL solar input on Block  6 which I know works OK, this should then allow the engine battery to be charged via the EBL off the LOAD terminals / solar excess power..


----------



## katv (May 26, 2018)

To get more information on how to connect the EBL contact Udo Lang at Schaudt, he is technical support and speaks good English.

udo.lang@schaudt-gmbh.de


----------



## malagaoth (May 26, 2018)

> The MPPT unit is wired directly to the leisure batteries and has excess / spare power that is tapped via the LOAD terminals



I might be being stupid here so bear with me

the idea of the load terminals is to be able to use power generated which is in excess to that needed to recharge the battery - is that right?

what is the difference between (for example) charging your laptop from the 'load' terminal and charging it from the battery (which is being charged by the panel)?

surely the net result is the same?


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 26, 2018)

malagaoth said:


> I might be being stupid here so bear with me
> 
> the idea of the load terminals is to be able to use power generated which is in excess to that needed to recharge the battery - is that right?
> 
> ...



Good question.

the voltage at the load terminals is around 14v with no load, it is raw voltage and not managed as such. 
A charger will have a feedback mechanism that adjusts  the voltage output depending upon the load being drawn by the battery.
So I would not use this source for charging unless a proper charger was in the circuit.
It is easier to use the existing battery supplied 12v sockets.  
Also, the load is not active when there is no sunshine so it is not available 24/7 as the batteries are.

I have a 12v laptop charger that uplifts the output voltage to 18v also a 12v in / 24v out charger for my mobility scooter, either of which can be used by the load terminals, but there is no point in the added complexity and circuits, when I can simply use any of the existing cigar sockets.

It is possible to feed this into the electric 220v element on the hot water tank, but this will only warm up the water to speed up the time taken to heat the water to normal hot temperature, but again, this is complex and inefficient.

My preferred route is to rig the excess power from the solar/mppt load and feed it into the EBL where it be used to keep the engine battery topped up. This is important for me as previous owners have hung accessories onto the engine battery, which depletes it and which currently can't be charged while parked up in the wild.
The engine battery is charged while driving or on a EHU only with my current configuration.

A B2B (battery to battery) charger can be used, but it looks like the EBL can be rigged to do the same thing while saving on the (not inconsiderable) cost of a B2B unit.

But I'm undecided right now,


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 26, 2018)

hairydog said:


> All the MPPT controllers I've had have allowed you to programme when the load terminals are powered.
> 
> Perhaps they come on when the sun shines (to use spare power) or when it doesn't shine (to provide light in the dark) or on some sort of timer.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, my mppt controller is not programmable so once the LBs are full, it outputs to the load terminals, it is passive.

I'll try to route the power to the EBL simply for the engine battery as (up to) 20 A is available  and going to waste and my engine battery depletes over time spent off-grid and stationary. 

I will be moving any after-market loads off the engine battery and onto the leisure batteries to eliminate the drain and if the mppt/load can be routed through the EBL, it will manage the engine batteries while off-grid.

It's mostly research and experiment at this point.

I have a problem: engine battery depletes while parked up, I also have excess power at the load terminals, the challenge is to marry up the problem to the mppt which should be the solution.

Other than this, I agree that on a motorhome, the load terms are pretty redundant otherwise.


----------



## Nabsim (May 26, 2018)

Not sure what you are trying will work with the EBL or even if you want it to. I ‘think’ that the EBL puts charge to the leisure and starter batteries when charge is going through it, whether that be EHU, Solar or other. I don’t ‘think’ if leisure batteries are full it will pass everything to the starter battery.

It may do what you want but I suspect it will charge ALL batteries and if your solar has cut off because batteries are full you would be forcing an overcharge. I ‘think’ you would need to use a b2b to achieve what you want or split you panels through two controllers maybe so one goes through the EBL and the rest direct to batteries through controller.

I stress I only ‘think’ this so please contact someone who really knows before risking damaging your batteries. I tried to email Udo Lang earlier this year and got no response so not sure if I had email address wrong or he is no longer there, if he is he can tell you.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (May 26, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> Not sure what you are trying will work with the EBL or even if you want it to. I ‘think’ that the EBL puts charge to the leisure and starter batteries when charge is going through it, whether that be EHU, Solar or other. I don’t ‘think’ if leisure batteries are full it will pass everything to the starter battery.
> 
> It may do what you want but I suspect it will charge ALL batteries and if your solar has cut off because batteries are full you would be forcing an overcharge. I ‘think’ you would need to use a b2b to achieve what you want or split you panels through two controllers maybe so one goes through the EBL and the rest direct to batteries through controller.
> 
> I stress I only ‘think’ this so please contact someone who really knows before risking damaging your batteries. I tried to email Udo Lang earlier this year and got no response so not sure if I had email address wrong or he is no longer there, if he is he can tell you.



The matter of a cascade / loop occurred to me, My understanding of the logic followed by the EBL is :

A) Priority 1 is to charge the engine battery from whatever input source is available to the EBL (engine/EHU/Solar/aux charger i/p on block 7)

B Once the engine battery has drunk it's fill, the EBL switches to the Leisure battery bank.

Each of the batteries will have their own and different re-charge needs, the EBL will "read" the battery state and adjust the voltage accordingly.

The EBL will never be charging both at the same time, But the LBs might have 2 devices charging them up at the same time, which is not a problem.

So if I use the existing but not connected optional inputs that are available at the EBL, I should be able to allow the EBL to perform as designed, using either the unused inputs on block 7 or the solar inputs available on block 6., both of which should accept the output of the load terminals.

The batteries will never get cooked or overcharged in this scenario.

It is common practice to connect a solar controller directly to the batteries as well as having a device such as the EBL unit also connected to them.

It is also perfectly acceptable to have BOTH charging at the same time, as each are proper chargers which monitor the battery status and adjust themselves independently of each other.

Anyone with a solar controller connected directly to the leisure batteries will be dual charging while driving on when on a hook-up anyways.


That is my theory which follows the logic in the technical manual of the EBL.

I'm not yet 100% confident in the theory at this point, but I'm up in the 90's with it.

edit: I just read the english manual and was surprised to see that the EBL ONLY charges the leisure batteries when on solar, it never goes near the engine battery. The engine battery is only ever charged from the alternator or the EHU.

So the theory carefully laid out above is actually utter bollox and just a figment of a brain marinated in Sativa.

edit2: well it's not all crap, only my expectation that I could use the load  terminals to charge the engine battery THROUGH the EBL, this is wrong and won't work.

So it looks like a battery to battery charger will be needed after all.



james


----------



## Nabsim (May 26, 2018)

Think I got a bit mixed up somewhere, thought you meant feeding from load to the input for an additional charger, that’s the bit that charges leisure and starter batteries.

I do think B2B would be your better option if you need to be charging starter and not usin EBL but all I know is from reading various threads/forums though so better for some who have actually done it to advise


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 3, 2018)

I bit the bullet and purchased a Sterling BB1230 B2B unit.

It's not yet sited or fitted.

It's a big-headed, loud object with so much pseudo techie BS printed on almost every exposed surface area, 
I don't like loud and pretentious.

Unfortunately, the only place I can install it is on the side wall of the main hab area, in full view at all times.

It's irritating me already, even before it is fitted and operational. 

If it doesn't meet my expectations, it's in for a good thrashing.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

hairydog said:


> The Sterling B2B is designed to go in the engine compartment. The cooling fan is noisy and you won't want it in the inside of the vehicle unless in a cupboard.
> 
> Electrically, it is meant to be connected near the starter battery (or the alternator or the starter motor) to reduce voltage drop, in a well-ventilated place. Though with just 30A capacity, the cable length may not matter so much.
> 
> The writing on it is informative. If you think it is pseudo techno BS, you need to get someone who understands to translate it for you.



You seem to always like to insert a little dig in your posts, but your comment about siting it in the engine compartment may be a useful suggestion, thanks and I hope that your day gets better for you.

I commented on the external appearance of this item, your derogatory response referred to the technical function of the device and my understanding of what it does. There is a difference between appearance and function, perhaps a level of subtlety that is not appreciated by yourself.

I am not deploying this unit to be fed by the engine alternator, I am deploying it to be fed by the MPPT load terminals, which are in the main habitation area
I'd like to keep it as close as possible to the source of power and it's fuse.

Reference the techie bs plastered all over it,  I stand by my comments .


----------



## wildebus (Jun 4, 2018)

Sterling make some good kit (although it looks so dated!) and is festooned with writing all over, but I find the most annoying thing about them is Charles Sterlings constant slagging off of any product that doesn't have his name on it 


FWIW, I know you are installing a B2B charger in order to charge the STARTER Battery from Solar, but the usual purpose of a B2B is of course to install the LEISURE batteries via the Alternator.  
For that purpose, I am taking a route you may find of academic interest?  Rather then installing a B2B in the usual fashion (the most expensive option), or a typical Split-Charge Relay (the most basic option), I am fitting (when I eventually get round to it) a Programmable Digital Alternator Regulator from Sterling (plus standard 200A Switching Relay).
This will change the alternator output from a basic output to a multi-stage battery charger output, tuned to your particular battery type (which is one reason why I installed an AGM Battery under the bonnet to match the AGMs in the Leisure battery bank when replacing the knackered Starter Battery).
One handy thing about this over a Leisure Battery B2B setup is it will charge the Starter Battery using a multi-stage Battery Charger algorithm as well, not just the Leisure Batteries.


(Going in the other direction, my Solar Controller doesn't have any useable Load outputs as the 'virtual' ones are shared with the comms port I am already using so I will just have a 3-way switch on the Relay control line to allow me to manually spoof the D+ signal from the alternator into the relay so when getting good solar charging, can push some excess wattage over)


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Once again, you miss the point. The B2B needs to be well-connected to the supply battery. That means it needs to be connected near the battery or near to something with a fat cable to the battery. Basically that means the starter or the alternator.
> The solar controller cable will be relatively slight.
> It has little to do with the charging power source, everything to do with the connection to the battery.



I think you are missing the point, not me.

There is NO supply battery in my configuration,
There is NO alternator in my configuration.
I am NOT trying to charge the engine battery from the auxiliary batteries, each battery bank is unaware of the other's existence.

The maximum current that is available from the MPPT load terminals to the BB1230 input is 15A.
The maximum current available from the BB1230 to the engine battery is 30A but it will never get to this ceiling as the source will be limited to 15A input. 

Your suggestion to re-configure my installation will not meet the objective of "charge the engine battery from the solar/mppt load terminals".

If I followed your suggestion, I would have :

A) The main 40A MPPT output connected to the 95Ah engine battery 
and
B) The 15A mppt load terminals connected to the 460Ah  leisure batteries via some type of charging device.

In my book, this is a misallocation of resources and is perfectly senseless and 100% incorrect.

The Hymer only charges the engine battery via the Elektroblock. which in turn only charges the engine battery under 2 scenarios:

A) On the move, via the alternator, 
and 
B) While on an EHU/220v hookup.

Even when using the correct schaudt solar controller, plugged into the EBL, it doesn't charge the engine battery unless A or B above conditions are met.

There is a discrepancy whereas if I park up for any length of time, the engine battery discharges slightly each day with no correspondent re-charge available, while I have spare/excess capacity at the mppt/load terminals.
So to ensure that ALL my batteries get the benefit of free solar charging, I need to fill in this gap.

I could have done this by using a cheap pwm solar controller hooked up to the load terminals and fed to the engine battery, but I went for the sterling loud jobbie instead.

When installations are completed, I will have masses of leisure power available and an automatic re-charge/top-up of the engine battery and the leisure batteries, which will easily provide me with free electric that meets my currently known daily load.

makes perfect sense to me.

james


----------



## maingate (Jun 4, 2018)

FringeDweller said:


> I think you are missing the point, not me.
> 
> There is NO supply battery in my configuration,
> There is NO alternator in my configuration.
> ...



I used the Schaudt 1218 recommended PWM solar regulator on my last 2 vans and it comes with a wiring kit that takes seconds to fit and will charge the engine battery from solar panels. They did not make an MPPT regulator when I bought mine but I imagine it will do the same.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

maingate said:


> I used the Schaudt 1218 recommended PWM solar regulator on my last 2 vans and it comes with a wiring kit that takes seconds to fit and will charge the engine battery from solar panels. They did not make an MPPT regulator when I bought mine but I imagine it will do the same.



Thanks for your comments.

I had a Schaudt PMW fitted that plugged into the Elecktroblock, but I've just removed it as it does NOT charge the engine battery when parked up. I didn't realise this until I got an English PDF for the EBL. 

Not sure which models of schaudt kit you have,  but on mine, the engine battery is left unattended when parked up.

So I needed a solution that charged both sets of batteries off the solar panels.

The EBL-100-2 pdf quotes :

Battery charging via solar charge regulator :
Starter battery Charging current Float charge max. 2 A
Battery charging via solar charge regulator *Only the living area battery is charged.*
Maximum charging current 14 A, fuse-protected by 15 A fuse.

which is confusing and contradictory, but in practical terms, I was not seeing any engine battery charging while stationary unless the EHU was live or the engine was running.

Also the max charge via the 1218 is 14A, which is insufficient to keep the 460Ah leisure batteries charged.

I replaced the 1218 with a Victron MPPT giving me up to 40A to the 460Ah leisure batteries, while also providing me with 2 extra "load" terminals that will be input into the Sterling BB1233 to give me up to 14A solar into the engine battery, from 4 panels on the roof of approx 360 watts.

I thought that this was an elegant, albeit expensive solution. Worth it as I have just spent in excess of £1000 on 2 Victron AGM 20Ah batteries.


----------



## maingate (Jun 4, 2018)

'You had a Schaudt regulator fitted' .... that sounds typical of the Motorhome Leisure industry. Apart from total newbies, the customers know more than the Dealers. 

Whoever neglected to fit the adaptor was a pillock.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

hairydog said:


> No, you have totally misunderstood what I suggest.
> 
> Your ideas seem ridiculous to me, so as a result my suggestions are totally unhelpful in assisting you need n achieving what you are trying to do.  I had assumed you were trying to do something that is completely different. Sorry for my distraction from your chosen path.
> 
> ...



I am really and sincerely grateful for constructive comments and suggestions. This is how I continue to learn.
However, you keep giving me suggestions that do not meet my clearly stated objectives, or, as in this instance, you proclaim doom and failure without actually saying what or why.

In your obviously superior opinion, why exactly won't my plan work ?

The Sterling can take any DC input between 11 and 20 volts. The mppt load output provides DC voltages within these parameters.
I plan to route this available mppt load voltage and input this into the sterling box and connect the output of the Sterling to the engine battery. It's as simple as that,.
Why do you not think that this is workable ? What parameters are incorrect or missing?* I really would like you to tell me please.
*
Although the Sterling unit has other functions (such as regenerative braking operations etc), in my application, these extra functions are redundant and are not required.

Thanks, james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

maingate said:


> 'You had a Schaudt regulator fitted' .... that sounds typical of the Motorhome Leisure industry. Apart from total newbies, the customers know more than the Dealers.
> 
> Whoever neglected to fit the adaptor was a pillock.



It's usually a job that I would do myself, but I was in the Algarve and sampling my first batch of organic Sativa. 
The fella that sold and fitted the solar upgrade was a nice chap and his prices were good (for the solar panels etc) 

- I got the Sativa from a gypsy girl in the town.

Overall, he was up on the roof fitting 3 extra panels to the existing single. Installed a Victron battery monitor and routed all the negatives thro a shunt. The system worked well in spite of my LBs being knackered. He fitted the Schaudtt LR 1218 pmw controller also.

But the schaudt pmw controller has a 18A limit (from memory) while the panels were capable of delivering much more. Plus there was zero engine battery charging via the elecktroblok unit.
And I kept running out of 12v when parked up for more than 3-4 sunny days. 

The system was insufficient for my daily load.

Once home and learning from 6 months around Iberia, I decided to upgrade the upgrade by removing the upgrade and fitting a Victron mppt 40A controller, which happened to have load terminals available. The schaudt PMW controller was thus redundant (and is for sale).

I replaced the dud 2x 135 LBs with 2x230Ah Victron AGMs.

I was finding the Victron battery monitor to be a fiddly overkill for my needs so this was removed and replaced with a trusty NASA BM1.
(The Victron Battery monitor and shunt are also for sale)

This combination has been meeting my needs for around 3 weeks now with the LBs being fully recharged by midday most days, and that is from English  sunshine too. That's living in the van full time.

My last remaining gap to plug is the matter of keeping the engine battery topped up while parked up, hence this thread.

As the Elecktroblok does not charge the engine battery from solar, even with the correct LR 1218 schaudt pmw solar controller plugged in, 
I needed to find some way of using the spare power available at the victron mppt solar controller on the load terminals,  to maintain the engine battery.

The simplest and cheapest way would be to fit a cheap 20A solar controller, fed by the load terminals and connected directly to the engine battery. But given that my investment on the upgrade to the upgrade is currently around £1,500 I chose the Sterling BB1230  to perform the task.

An added benefit over a simple split-charge relay type of configuration, is that my config will charge both engine and leisure batteries simultaneously rather than either/or. Given my current and expected daily load I should never run out of juice, even if parked up for months.

The BB1230's role is purely to maintain the charge to the engine battery while parked up and off-grid. Maybe an overkill at worse.

But some folks appear to doubt my sanity regarding this intention, but I am unconvinced that this will not work.

I have to finish off the refurbishment of the seat / locker lids and various other chippy type stuff presently.
Then I can clear up the chippy tools and sawdust and get back to the electrics.

Next step is to site the ugly Sterling box somewhere out of sight, route the cables and connect the B2B between the MPPT load output and onto the engine battery..

The Sterling blurb tells me that it is simple to install with just 2 wires in and 2 wires out.

So unless someone actually knows why this will fail, 

that is the plan.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Sterling make some good kit (although it looks so dated!) and is festooned with writing all over, but I find the most annoying thing about them is Charles Sterlings constant slagging off of any product that doesn't have his name on it
> 
> 
> FWIW, I know you are installing a B2B charger in order to charge the STARTER Battery from Solar, but the usual purpose of a B2B is of course to install the LEISURE batteries via the Alternator.
> ...



Many Thanks for sharing your details.

I looked at those as part of my research.

The fundamental difference between your installation and mine seems to be that I have a second source of solar power available and thus I don't need to consider switching between loads, I can charge both simultaneously. Each of the B2B, MPPT and EBL are chargers in their own right and will happily operate together.

I don't have to include alternator charging or EHU/220v options in my calculus as these are already catered for by the Elecktoblock in the normal manner.

I overlaid a huge battery bank and solar charging onto the existing factory fitted arrangements and thus had the opportunity to create free power that easily feeds my daily usage. This is without affecting the original alternator and 220v charging arrangments, which remain untouched and operate happily together. 

That is until I start to use the NutriBullet and Expresso machines too much, that will be part of the commissioning and final testing.

Irons are banned, I like to live a bit wrinkly...

james


----------



## Canalsman (Jun 4, 2018)

On my previous 'van I used this device to achieve what you are seeking and plan to fit such to my present 'van:

12V to 12V BATTERY CHARGER 1Amp 12W DC-DC (Top Up Battery Charger) Part No: E848  | eBay

Works really well, is easy to fit, and is inexpensive


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

POI Admin said:


> On my previous 'van I used this device to achieve what you are seeking and plan to fit such to my present 'van:
> 
> 12V to 12V BATTERY CHARGER 1Amp 12W DC-DC (Top Up Battery Charger) Part No: E848  | eBay
> 
> Works really well, is easy to fit, and is inexpensive



Thanks Chris, 

That unit on Ebay is only 1A and I've just spent £175 on a Sterling 20A B2B, so I am where I am.

I've gotta stick to my plan at this point in time. I've yet to connect it and see if it works as I expect but some advice I've had tells me that I am a lunatic, I'll update you all at the next full moon then,

james


----------



## Canalsman (Jun 4, 2018)

However 1 amp is sufficient to offset any load presented by an alarm system, for instance ...


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

POI Admin said:


> However 1 amp is sufficient to offset any load presented by an alarm system, for instance ...



I agree that it should be so, but on my van...

I've got a slow drain on the engine battery and I suspect an old battery. 

I am targeting the dash area electrics next as previous owners have hung stuff off the engine battery which I intend to transfer over onto the ample leisure batteries.

This way, I should get to the correct situation where very little is using the engine battery and the spare solar will ensure that it is fully charged at all times.

I'll also be re-wiring an existing switch panel on the dash, replacing everything with a splendidly sleek and compact panel, that is manufactured and supplied  by Mr Wildebus himself, it fits exactly into the footprint of the sprinter automatic dashboard and covers up a few old sins.

james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 4, 2018)

FringeDweller said:


> Thanks Chris,
> 
> That unit on Ebay is only 1A and I've just spent £175 on a Sterling 20A B2B, so I am where I am.
> 
> ...



I can't see a reason why it will not work as you expect.  
It is an expensive solution however, but could be worth the money for the results it will deliver (providing a properly managed charge cycle is one bonus for sure)

I wonder if in actual fact you needed to use anything other than a piece of cable ? The load terminals are only active when you have excess power? So can you not just connect direct to a circuit going to the starter battery? The Victron controller will not suck any charge from the Starter when load is off I am sure (and if it would, a diode would take care of that eventuality)
I am not familiar with the model of Victron controller you have and .maybe a flaw in my idea due to the way the controller operates but just a thought?


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I can't see a reason why it will not work as you expect.
> It is an expensive solution however, but could be worth the money for the results it will deliver (providing a properly managed charge cycle is one bonus for sure)
> 
> I wonder if in actual fact you needed to use anything other than a piece of cable ? The load terminals are only active when you have excess power? So can you not just connect direct to a circuit going to the starter battery? The Victron controller will not suck any charge from the Starter when load is off I am sure (and if it would, a diode would take care of that eventuality)
> I am not familiar with the model of Victron controller you have and .maybe a flaw in my idea due to the way the controller operates but just a thought?



While the main mppt battery terminals is a properly profiled charging point, the load terminals are not, as I understand it, they just provide 14v off load which "might" do something at the battery end but it is not taking any feedback regarding what the load is doing, it just makes up to 14A available, full stop. 

The load voltage is only available when the main terminals are or have completed the full charge of the LBs or if there is still spare capacity from the mppt even when it is charging the LBs. In practical terms I am seeing charging and load voltage happening at the same time, which is all daylight hours. 

Given that the Sterling will be hopelessly underworked and should have the engine battery full by midday, every day, I see this approach as my best bet, albeit expensive, but I've spent so much on the system so far, I'm not going to take shortcuts at this stage.

The Sterling will allow me to set the battery type and then simply take what I shove up it's inputs and profile the output to suit the battery type and charge state as a proper battery charger should do.

Well that's my theory and working assumptions anyway.

If anyone thinks it won't work, rather than just attack the theory, please provide some actual facts and offer me working alternatives.

Many Thanks to all

james


----------



## yeoblade (Jun 4, 2018)

POI Admin said:


> On my previous 'van I used this device to achieve what you are seeking and plan to fit such to my present 'van:
> 
> 12V to 12V BATTERY CHARGER 1Amp 12W DC-DC (Top Up Battery Charger) Part No: E848  | eBay
> 
> Works really well, is easy to fit, and is inexpensive



Similar charger here
SOLAR WIND SPLIT CHARGE LEISURE & ENGINE BATTERY CAMPER MOTORHOME BOAT 12V  | eBay

£25 , as soon as L batts are charged sends charge power over to Cab battery.
Had this on my last 2 vans with a 250w solar, works perfectly and easy 5 min fit.
My cab radio/android headunit is off the cab bat so need to be topped up, never had a problem.

KISS  (Keep It Simple S....) is how I work


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 4, 2018)

yeoblade said:


> Similar charger here
> SOLAR WIND SPLIT CHARGE LEISURE & ENGINE BATTERY CAMPER MOTORHOME BOAT 12V  | eBay
> 
> £25 , as soon as L batts are charged sends charge power over to Cab battery.
> ...



Yes indeed KISS, its part of my life philosophy.

What you describe is a good approach and is certainly a cheaper option. My solution doesn't bother with switching or relays, each battery bank will have it's own properly profiled charging circuit, dedicated to its own particular needs. both can be charged simultaneously. 

The LBs are AGM while the engine battery is standard wet lead-acid, so it would need more than a switch to satisfy the different profiles.


----------



## Canalsman (Jun 5, 2018)

hairydog said:


> You think so? A simple diode on a heatsink in a box for almost £50?  You could buy a suitable diode for just a few pounds.
> 
> Something like Vishay VS-12F20, Rectifier Diode, Stud Cathode, 200V, 12A, 2-pin DO-4  | eBay (which is less than £2) would seem suitable, from a quick glance at the spec.



You haven't read the spec of the device I have recommended.

_If whilst the leisure battery is being charged it reaches a voltage 0.4V greater than the engine battery, then the Top-Up Charger transfers charge from the leisure battery to the engine battery until the voltage difference is 0.2V, it then terminates the transfer._

If you can achieve that with a diode I would be most surprised.

Please will you stop trying to pick holes in suggestions made in good faith. It is very tedious.


----------



## Nabsim (Jun 5, 2018)

I am surprised the Victron units dont have connectors for the starter battery as well as the leisure batteries, would have made this a lot easier for you. Do they have a suggestions section on their website


----------



## wildebus (Jun 5, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> I am surprised the Victron units dont have connectors for the starter battery as well as the leisure batteries, would have made this a lot easier for you. Do they have a suggestions section on their website


They have actually removed the load terminals from all but the smallest MPPT Controllers as well.  I suspect that while the Lesiure (RV and Boating) market is large, it is not their primary one.  I think they do sell some kind of B2B trickle charger along the lines of the device POI Chris linked to or the Battery Master.
A very good all in one unit, but aimed at smaller installs of 200W PV or less is the Amperor Associates PI25C.  This provides a split charge B2B function for alternator charging, an MPPT Controller for upto 200W of Solar, a starter battery trickle of 1A, a display to tell you Voltages and charge current,  all for around £150 - AND it is a British Product!


----------



## Nabsim (Jun 5, 2018)

You would have thought they would keep some made for the RV/Motorhome/Boat class as everyone says its is growing. Maybe decided they have a different market though but none of that will help here unfortunately. I know my voltronic has the output for lb and starter but you need to get the Duo range for that option.

@ James, when you have charge going in to your leisure batteries does it show on your original control panel? My DT101 does not have an input for the controller like later ones do but it shows whatever voltage is on leisure battery bank and starter battery along with + or - amps on leisure batteries. I 'think' you only get that if you connect through the EBL but interested to know if it can display when not going though like yours is.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 5, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Yes, my suggestions presupposed a rational approach. I was mistaken about that, so those suggestions were no use to you at all. I have already apologised for that.
> 
> I'll tell you why I think your whole approach is wrong:
> 
> ...



Thank you HD.

I will try to clarify my objective(s) as they have changed slightly since my original posting.

Initially, I wanted to understand what use I could get from the Victron MPPT controller's extra LOAD terminals. I initially thought that they were pretty useless and would remain unused.

As I progressed with the bigger project, of upgrading the solar charging and leisure batteries, it became apparent that my original assumption that the Elecktroblock EBL-100-1 is managing both sets of batteries is in fact incorrect.

The EBL-100 will NOT charge the engine battery if the only source of power is from the solar controller.
Even when I was using the correct schaudtt PWM solar controller plugged into the correct port on the EBL unit.

The EBL-100 will only manage the engine battery when on a 220v ehu or when driving via the alternator. never via the solar input.

So I was at the point where I had plenty of solar power to manage the victron 460Ah leisure batteries but I had an engine battery with a drain and no re-charge facility from the solar system.

*So my current objective is simply this :

Use the 14v / 14A available from the Victron mppt controller spare LOAD terminals  to manage the engine battery, in the simplest method possible.

*

I looked at many possible solutions and settled on the Sterling BB1230. 

As I have 2 solar charging sources, it won't be necessary to complicate matters by trying to use switching or split-charge options because I am not trying to switch a single charging source between 2 battery banks, there is a potential to assign each charging source to each battery bank and thus charge them independently of each other. 

The Victron MPPT controller provides 2x outputs:
A) A properly profiled charging system from the main BAT terminals - configured for 2x Victron AGM LBs 
B) Non-profiled / raw 14v / 14A available from the Victron MPPT LOAD terminals which needs to charge a standard wet lead-acid starter battery.

If I intend to use the raw 14v/14A outputs, I will need to insert some device that is configurable for various battery charging profiles, eg a charger that operates from a 12V DC (nominal) voltage as a source.

The Ugly Sterling BB1230 is now purchased and I intend to use it in a non-standard way between the Victron mppt LOAD terminals and hooked directly to the engine battery. The specs say that this is possible. I believe that the BB1230 will see the 14v / 14A given out by the MPPT load terminals as a source battery and it will see the engine battery as the battery to be re-charged.

I can't get any clearer than that for you. 

I am thinking outside the box. which seems to be taken as a sign of incompetence or technical ignorance, which is far from the truth.

Thank you for your interest.

james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 5, 2018)

Thinking outside the box is how new ways to use existing products happen   so good for you and I am sure it will work.

From my own personal side, I think your solution is rather on the high side price-wise considering the small amount of current you want to move, and would have probably gone with a permanent variation of what I had in place temporarily for a short term while I still had my poor starter battery installed (and what some people do as an alternative to a 'normal' B2B system install as well)
Namely a small inverter connected to the load output terminals and a small smart battery charger. Those two Combined,  with mid-range branded items used, would deliver a good solution - a higher price then the battery master type solutions, but a much higher power capability - and the small energy losses from the DC-AC-DC conversion process is coming from free power anyway.

But everyone has their own ways and sees alternative options which is good and as said, discovers new ways to use products.
If you did nothing to address the starter drain, no doubt it would cost you more than the sterling product in replacement battery installation, so in the longer term you are saving money even with the B2B solution


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 5, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Thinking outside the box is how new ways to use existing products happen   so good for you and I am sure it will work.
> 
> From my own personal side, I think your solution is rather on the high side price-wise considering the small amount of current you want to move, and would have probably gone with a permanent variation of what I had in place temporarily for a short term while I still had my poor starter battery installed (and what some people do as an alternative to a 'normal' B2B system install as well)
> Namely a small inverter connected to the load output terminals and a small smart battery charger. Those two Combined,  with mid-range branded items used, would deliver a good solution - a higher price then the battery master type solutions, but a much higher power capability - and the small energy losses from the DC-AC-DC conversion process is coming from free power anyway.
> ...



I have a huge list of work, repairs and upgrades to complete so that I can get un-SORNED and mobile again and I don't want to waste too much time experimenting if I can buy something off-the shelf.

The inverter / 220v car charger method is certainly an option, but I want something that is fit & forget that will not need any manual interventions or switching. 

I've spent the cash on the sterling unit, so that is my destiny - unless it fails, then I'll eat crow.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

hairydog said:


> That's not an objective. It's a method.
> Objectives are things like "Reach Birmingham by noon", not "Use my unicycle hesdlight to light the road so that I can reach Birmingham by noon"
> Or "Keep both banks of battery charged without having to use the engine" but not "Use a mirror to reflect the sun onto the solar panel to increase charge to the batteries"
> You have confused objective with method, and as a result you are going about it in what I've consider an inside way.
> ...



I am not confused about my objectives or the definition of the word "objectives" and your constant and irrelevant nonsense such as this posting serves only your ego and offers zero practical help or advice. 

You have not taken onboard the details that have been carefully provided all of the way through this thread. 

The B2B is designed for an intermittant supply - that is precisely what an alternator is, as it is never going to be running 24/7 is it ? 
The mppt load terminals will offer a charging source all of the time that the sun is shining. 

If the sterling b2b operates as per the spec, it won't cook the engine battery, that is a dramatic figment of your imagination, you are projecting your wish of failure.

It is not adding extra complexity, it is as simple as 2 charging sources and 2 properly profiled charging outputs.

You have also ignored the fact the the Sterling B2B needs to have the battery type configured, how do you suggest that it is configured to charge 2 totally different battery types? I have a 460Ah AGM bank as my Aux batteries and I have a standard lead-acid starter battery of around 95Ah - so, how do you address this difference ? by ignoring it ?

You have suggested inappropriate solutions based on switching a single source between 2 batteries .

Misuse of kit ? If I choose to use the sterling b2b as a door stop it won't be a misuse of kit, I own it and can use it for any purpose that I choose.

Your suggestion of your rational approach, ignores the fact that I am not needing to use the B2B to charge the aux batteries they are fully managed already. I need to ONLY address the engine battery so no relays or switching is required under any circumstances.

I genuinely welcome constructive inputs from those with a real interest, but your advice, frankly is useless and ill intentioned it is not being given in good faith.

I say again, I do NOT NEED to use the B2B to manage the aux batteries, I need to ensure that the ENGINE BATTERY ONLY gets charged by the B2B via the solar system.

In my installation, the aux battery bank of 460Ah is the main job for the solar system with the engine battery being a secondary priority, I have a second charging point available which I intend to use to also manage the engine battery simultaneously to the aux charging.

This is the least complex solution albeit expensive.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

It will be a couple more days before I can get the Sterling B2B unit wired in and once it is fully operational, I will be happy to report on the result.

I anticipate that the results will be splendid, with all of my charging and battery management needs being met with the design that I have implemented.

Full charging of all of my batteries from solar panels will be the result.

Hopefully this will convince the nay-sayers that I am not a lunatic , but that hope is doubtful, given the nature of some of the nonsense that has been thrown into the discussion.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

hairydog said:


> The B2B charger is designed to work with varying input voltage, but with constant power.
> You clearly don't understand what I am suggesting.
> The whole point of a B2B charger is to charge one battery from another of a different type, and it is designed specifically to do what I am suggesting.
> I'm sorry that you have led yourself so far up the garden path that you think helpful suggestions unhelpful.
> I wish you luck with your hare-brained project. You'll need a lot of luck.



sorry but I have elected to ignore any information that you provide, you are simply stuck in the wrong paradigm and you don't appear to have the capability of flexible thought.

I've stated several times that I intend to use the B2B in a non-standard way, which appears to you to be lunacy, but to me is simply thinking outside the box.

The results will prove who is really the lunatic.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

hairydog said:


> Yes, sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring people who know what they are talking about is a great plan.
> You're not Michael Gove in disguise, are you?



Only you believe that you know what you are talking about, this is not an opinion that I agree with.

as I said, the results will speak for themselves.


----------



## Obanboy666 (Jun 6, 2018)

Watching this thread with great interest.
Amazes me the technology that owners fit to their vans and the huge battery banks and solar they have installed. I have 2 x 105 amp leisure batteries fed by a 100 watt solar battery. Often, especially this time of year I can be parked up for 3/4 days without hook up with tv on for 8/10 hrs a day if there is cycling or cricket to watch and the Truma combi on if cold. Never have an issue with batteries getting excessively discharged.
I use my van more in winter than summer and again to date no issues keeping batteries charged as I move on every 2/3 days.
Only charge the base vehicles battery gets is when I am on the move and the odd time I put ehu on at home, solar panel only feeds the leisure batteries.
I have an alarm and imobiliser fitted and van can be stood for 3 weeks and starts first week time.
I can understand someone charging the vehicle from the solar panels if parked up for weeks on end but not if the motorhome is regulary used.
I’m no expert on motorhome technology so please accept my apologies if I’m talking out of my a##e !


----------



## wildebus (Jun 6, 2018)

I found I had to make use of the "ignore" feature to avoid getting wound up. And reading quoted messages, nothing has changed 

I am revising my own method to charge the starter battery when off-grid and stationary during to a changed layout. 
Originally going to fit the mains charger and the split charge relay, driven by the D+ signal under the passenger seat, but decided to reuse an existing 16mm cable that went to the tail lift and run that to the Leisure electrics area under the bed and keep it all together.
So now will use a pretty typical 140A VSR split-charge setup so the starter and leisure batteries will be tied together when the voltage hits 13.3V.
How the Victron BMS will cope with a battery bank that grows from 440Ah to 550Ah and then shrinks again on a regular basis I am not sure?. Will be interesting to monitor that.
This aspect of system Monitoring is where a B2B unit has a distinct advantage over a device that simply connects two separate batteries together (apart from its other advantages).


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

wildebus said:


> I found I had to make use of the "ignore" feature to avoid getting wound up. And reading quoted messages, nothing has changed
> 
> I am revising my own method to charge the starter battery when off-grid and stationary during to a changed layout.
> Originally going to fit the mains charger and the split charge relay, driven by the D+ signal under the passenger seat, but decided to reuse an existing 16mm cable that went to the tail lift and run that to the Leisure electrics area under the bed and keep it all together.
> ...



I guess that if you re-configure the battery monitor to reflect the changing capacity,(as you go from 440 to 550, everything should work out just fine.

and Thanks for your positive support and suggestions.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

Obanboy666 said:


> Watching this thread with great interest.
> Amazes me the technology that owners fit to their vans and the huge battery banks and solar they have installed. I have 2 x 105 amp leisure batteries fed by a 100 watt solar battery. Often, especially this time of year I can be parked up for 3/4 days without hook up with tv on for 8/10 hrs a day if there is cycling or cricket to watch and the Truma combi on if cold. Never have an issue with batteries getting excessively discharged.
> I use my van more in winter than summer and again to date no issues keeping batteries charged as I move on every 2/3 days.
> Only charge the base vehicles battery gets is when I am on the move and the odd time I put ehu on at home, solar panel only feeds the leisure batteries.
> ...



Thanks for sharing with us. I agree, that for most folks, short park ups of 2-3 days will easily be managed by their aux batteries. 

I found several times during my last adventure around Iberia, that long park ups of more than 3 or 4 days exhausted my aux batteries, requiring me to either drive off or run the engine to give me a bit longer loafing time.

I was inspired by a mate who spends every winter parked up in the sand dunes along the Moroccan coast, while he wind surfs.
He has gone for 6v Trojans which are kept topped up by the African sun.

When I got back to the UK, I had already decided to invest in a "dogs nads" type of upgrade, I set myself a couple of simple objectives (although I don't understand the meaning of the word apparently) 

A) Increase the aux reserve to the maximum that I could physically fit into the available space.

B) Ensure that I could keep them charged up at all times via solar panels.

So I now have 460Ah Victron AGM battery reserve, 4 panels on the roof totalling around 340W (No room for any more up there) managed by a 40A Victron MPPT controller. All without disturbing the existing factory fitted electrics.

But I found a discrepancy that I was unaware of, that is, when stationary and without a 220v EHU , the Schaudtt EBL-100 can't charge the engine battery, even when I had a proper Schaudtt solar controller in the circuit, so I had to seek a solution that used the Victron MPPT load terminals as a source for the engine battery, but how and what ?

The rest of the storey can be found in the various postings made in this thread.

It's all in and working better than I anticipated, with the exception of the missing link for charging the starter battery.

This missing link in my design has generated lots of debate and suggestions, mostly of a good quality.

I'll have the whole installation completed in a couple more days and I am expecting to be in a position where the sunshine will always be keeping my batteries topped up to full, for an unlimited period of time, provided that I don't go mental and try to use heavy loads such as an electric kettle etc.

It helps that I have already eliminated most of my 220v needs and moved over to 12v equipment.

I am yet to see if I can use my NutriBullet and expresso machine, not to mention the Henry for the dog hairs, but I am optimistic.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 6, 2018)

*The Sterling BB1230 Battery to battery charger.*

The Sterling BB1230 Battery to battery charger.

here is the data that I am using to meet my objectives:

From the BB1230 box :

The Pro Bat Ultra is a *DC to DC charger* that is installed between a battery bank which is being charged (*typically a starter battery being charged by an alternator/battery charger)* and a battery bank that you wish to charge (auxilliary / house / bow thruster). 
The charger shall provide a 5 stage charging profile to these output batteries.
Keywords: *DC to DC charger*


This unit will reduce the input voltage if it too high and boost if its too low ensuring the batteries receive their optimal charge voltage.

The unit is *typically* deployed using the engine battery and alternator as the source / input and an auxilliary battery as the target or battery to be charged.
*Keyword Typically.*

However in my case, my requirement is to use a pair of unused terminals on my Victron MPPT controller called the LOAD terminals, as a source of power which can be fed into the BB1230 and used to maintain the engine battery.

So I will end up with MPPT Load output at 14v / 14A as INPUT to the BB1230.
The BB1230 Output will then provide a proper 5 stage charging profile which I will then connect directly to the engine battery.

The existing Schaudtt EBL-100 already handles the engine and AUX batteries when driving or on a 220v EHU so the typical use for the BB1230 would simply duplicate an existing EBL-100 function and is not addressing the need to charge the engine battery from solar.

So an overview is as follows :

During daylight hours the 340Watt PV panels feed into a Victron 40 Amp MPPT controller.

The Victron 40 Amp MPPT controller has 2 separate charging outputs :

A) is the usual BAT terminals, which I have connected to the 460Ah Victron AGM Super Cycle batteries and can deliver up to 40A if there is enough sunshine. However, my 340 Watt panels will probably deliver a maximum of maybe 20 - 25 Amps to the controller.
The MPPT controller is configured for AGM batteries on the BAT terminals.

B) A pair of output terminals called LOAD, which will deliver 14 DC Volts at a max of 14 Amps raw DC - not profiled or managed, it is either there or not.
This source will be used to derive an INPUT into the BB1230 DC to DC charger.

As the Sterling literature says, the BB1230 will adjust the input voltage and ensure the target battery is properly charged depending on the type of battery being configured into the BB1230. 

Both ends of the BB1230 will be seeing pure DC.

The MPPT terminals are all dead when it's dark so the BB1230 will not have any work to do. 

This action is similar to parking the car - no alternator so no work to do. 

So The MPPT  BAT terminals are providing me an AGM charging profile while the LOAD terminals drive the BB1230 which will be configured for a Lead-acid battery charging profile.
This gives me simultaneous charging of BOTH battery banks and both are correctly profiled.

Status to date:

The MPPT charging of the AUX batteries has been in use for around 3 weeks of full time live-in conditions and work better than I expected. 
Every day, even the gloomy ones, have seen my Aux batteries fully replenished by midday or earlier.

This demonstrates that I have plenty of spare solar power available that will easily charge an 95Ah engine battery in it's spare time.


Now to be honest,the engine battery charging via the BB1230 is unproven, but the specs say it will work just fine.
I intend to jerry-rig the BB1230 and watch it for a day or so before I hang it onto a bulkhead and cable it up permanently.

Or possibly just go ahead with the full installation - as my confidence level is unaffected by irritating Dog Hairs.

As Ian Drury sang "It's nice to be a lunatic"

Thank you dear reader for your close attention.

james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 7, 2018)

This post about Charging Starter Batteries is not of direct relevance, but may be of interest to those with Solar Arrays and interestingly enough, Compressor Fridges (confused with connection? read on!)
Not sure if it should be in this topic but I believe adds to the knowledge base presented in this thread.

I added a VSR (Voltage Sensing/Switching Relay) to my Camper yesterday as primarily a Split-Charge system and also to allow charging of the Starter Battery from the Solar to put excess energy to use, just as the OP is intending to do.
I hadn't actually intended to use a VSR originally but when I looked at the data this morning I think I am very pleased I was pushed down that route!

This is the Starter Battery (SB) and Leisure Battery Bank (LBB) Voltages



VRM-Batteries (VSR kicked in) by David, on Flickr
The graph shows the time the VSR kicked in  (07:50) and how the Starter Battery leapt from 12.67V to 13.25V. And since that time, the Voltage of the Starter Battery has been in step with the Leisure Battery Bank (comparing the blue lines on both charts).  This is what you would expect when a Relay is on.
What the chart also confirms is the VSR kicked on when the LBB hit 13.3V - precisely what the spec of the VSR says (13.3V on, 12.8V off)

What the next chart shows is interesting as well



VRM-DC System (VSR kicked in) by David, on Flickr
This is power consumption demands from the system.  As can be seen here, when the VSR kicked in, the power demand jumped - as you would expect with a load requiring power appearing  (when one battery is at a lower voltage than another battery, it is effectively no longer a source of power but a consumer of power).

I had wondered how the system would cope (in terms of Battery Management System Reporting) with a Battery Bank that grows and shrinks, but in fact - and this should have been more obvious in hindsight - the Battery Bank will not essentially 'grow' until both SB and LBB are near enough at 100% as until then the SB will be taking the power that the LBB doesn't need - just like say a TV taking more power than a light.
Actual SOC didn't change when the VSR kicked in in fact  (it might have dropped slightly if it were at 100% already?  it is slightly quirky anyway when it hits 100% and there is slight power use).  
Right now as I type this the SOC has hit 100%, the MPPT controller is in Absorption mode (I would guess it will be in Float pretty soon once the SB is fully loaded as still a fair power coming in at 160W).
I  *think* the SB will also benefit from the MPPTs multi-stage charging algorithm but maybe not as much as LBB (however I believe I have that covered with the digital regulator that is going on the Alternator).

And so the "money shot" - LBB and SB kept on charge, Fridge running keeping the beer cold, Fan running keeping the interior cooler ...



VRM-runningonSolar by David, on Flickr



Oh....  Compressor Fridge? 
OK.  You have the SB and LBB linked together and as the evening approachs the solar harvesting reduces and you are drawing power from the SB as well as the LBB.
This is not what you really want ideally as the idea is to keep the SB at optimum.

Now there is a good side effect to the Rush-in Power each time the Compressor kicks in - the voltage dips momentarily each time this happens by a small amount.  The effect this will have near the end of daylight is to take the voltage briefly below 12.8V, at which point the VSR disengages and when the inrush is over a few seconds later, the voltage rise again, but not to a point where the VSR will re-engage.  So you keep the SB fully charged and don't draw on it at all for Leisure purposes.


----------



## Full Member (Jun 7, 2018)

*That's A Very..........*



wildebus said:


> This post...........And so the "money shot" - LBB and SB kept on charge, Fridge running .................



.................... impressive piece of work and is exceptionally well presented.
Thank you.

(Apologies for truncating your post, wildebus, but I didn't want to reproduce the whole text).

Colin


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 7, 2018)

Full Member said:


> .................... impressive piece of work and is exceptionally well presented.
> Thank you.
> 
> (Apologies for truncating your post, wildebus, but I didn't want to reproduce the whole text).
> ...



I'll piggy back this reply, to agree.

Many Thanks, a quality piece of work indeed, as is the entire van, very high standard.

and the bit I do like, is the shortened quote above, 

This post...........And so the "money shot" - LBB and SB kept on charge, Fridge running ................. Nice one.

These are 3 of my objectives, looks like I have met 2 of them as of now, you've met all 3.

In this thread and another that I started regarding running the 3x way fridge on 12v permanently, the advice was mixed but generally discouraged.
I remain optimistic and will look at the topic when I get further down my list of TTD.


----------



## wildebus (Jun 7, 2018)

Thanks for the postive feedback Colin.

James, thank you for your comments as well of course.  I sometimes wonder if I am hijacking your thread with some of my posts, but I think (hope!) they add value to the topic and are worthwhile additions to it rather than being put on a seperate thread entirely. Please do let me know if it is too much!

Once your B2B is fitted, the 3rd objective will be met as well I have zero doubt on that.  Your thought process on the operation of that is - IMO - totally sound.  
The way the VSR is working for me is a bit of a surprise. No reason why it should have been - I just hadn't fully worked the logic out until the numbers were staring at me on the screen (my "thing" is data analysis which is why I love working out this kind of stuff  )


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 7, 2018)

*The Sterling BB1230 is now in service.*

The Sterling BB1230 is now in service.

I've hung it in the main cabin (which I think I'm going to regret) and temporarily wired it up between the MPPT controller and the engine battery.
 It started up as soon as I put in the fuses.

Reason that I'll regret this choice is that the BB1230 is LOUD, both visually and it has a noisy fan.

As it is our first night together, I am hoping it will be silent after dark, else it'll have to be resited, I can't have it interfering with my Chakras can I ?

At the point of BB1230 startup, the engine battery was low at 12.09 v and the MPPT load voltage was at 13.68.
The 12.09 v represents 50% discharge, very low. The engine battery is suspect anyway and is designated for replacement.

There is no sunshine today - it's dull an gloomy, the solar unit is only able to glean between 3 an 6 Amps which is also very low.

The BB1230 is cutting in an charging the engine battery until the LOAD terminals voltage cuts out, then it enters sleep mode until the source is restored.

I expect this as there are 2 conditions which are around the lower limits of the BB1230 and which I consider unusual and should not exist when I complete all of my upgrades and get into the sunshine.

A) The engine battery performance is very low and needs to be replaced 
B) The MPPT LOAD output is around 12.6 when actually under load - ie when the BB1230 is working.

Add to that is the fact that I'm not getting any sunshine and my solar system can't give the BB1230 enough to keep it in charge mode for long.

The BB1230 has a function that they call SVEM - Stationary Vehicle Engagement Mode, which if configured in, will allow the unit to operate from lower input voltages, 13.1V and disengage at 13.0V, this is working much the same way as above, while the BB1230 actually ignites at 12.6V, more in line with the LOAD terminals.

The reason that the LOAD switches in and out is that I am using the habitation equipment, which is depleting the LBs and the MPPT box is giving the priority to the LBs, as I expect, once the LBs are full, it switches the LOAD on which then activates the BB1230 - perfect !

The solar system is operating, overall, at it's lowest threshold, given there is little sunshine to drive it right now.

But, the BB1230 has now charged the engine battery to 13.8V, gleaned from the meagre amount of sunshine it has had to work with.

The LBs are at 95% right now, as they are in use and not getting much charge.

All of the above is as I expected, I anticipate that with a replacement engine battery and plenty of sunshine, all of my batteries will be fully charged easily by the solar system.

I'll be monitoring the system closely over the next few days while hoping for some sunshine.

james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 7, 2018)

Sounds positive there.
Are you going to get a like-for-like swap of the starter battery or upgrade in any way?

In terms of location of the B2B, It sounds like you are connecting direct to the starter battery.  Given the output is relatively low, is there a more convenient connection you could use to make it easier to hide it?  (as an example, my temporary starter battery connection for the mains charger while I still had the knackered battery fitted was actually the courtesy light cable! bit lightweight for sure, but it did the job for the time needed and was fused above the output I set on the charger)

Ref your connection to the LOAD terminal - which will of course only charge when they are active, which is your plan of course, I wonder from reading your last post if there would be any value in having an "emergency" setup if you are parked up with not much excess solar around but wanted/needed to give the Starter Battery a little boost anyway?
Thinking maybe if you used a standard 5-Pin 40A Relay; connected Pin 30 to the B2B; Pin 87a to the MPPT load +ve out; and Pin 87 to the MPPT standard +ve out.
Then by default you would have the B2B on the Load due to the Pin87a (NC), and you could connect Pin 85 (or 86 - never remember which is meant to be the control one!) to a switch and flick it on to override the input and use Pin 87 (NO) for those rare/random occasions and no rewiring required whatsover.
This would also - if appropriate - give you the ability and option to use the B2B to charge the starter battery when Hooked up should the Sterling unit be technically better than the built-in charger in the Hymer?  (I don't know much about this EBL setup, but I know many standard battery chargers in some MHs are very poor compared to current Smart Chargers)
Maybe over-egging the setup, but adds a nice bit of flexibility at little extra expense or work.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 7, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Sounds positive there.
> Are you going to get a like-for-like swap of the starter battery or upgrade in any way?
> 
> In terms of location of the B2B, It sounds like you are connecting direct to the starter battery.  Given the output is relatively low, is there a more convenient connection you could use to make it easier to hide it?  (as an example, my temporary starter battery connection for the mains charger while I still had the knackered battery fitted was actually the courtesy light cable! bit lightweight for sure, but it did the job for the time needed and was fused above the output I set on the charger)
> ...



The replacement engine battery will just be a straight replacement with a decent brand for reliability, it's got a varta in at the moment. 

I've run a 25A cable pair through the engine bay bulkhead which is the charging lead, this will route under the driver's door step an up some trunking to the solar box.

The EBL already manages both sets of batteries when driving and on 220v/EHU so I won't need to duplicate this function.
The EBL ignores the engine battery if solar is connected into it, hence the need for the BB1230, which by-passes the EBL and connects directly to the engine batteries.

Your suggestion regarding the relay, is a good idea as a on/off switch between the load terminals and the BB1230 input, so that I can ensure silence or simply switch it off, if required.

As I was typing I got a few minutes of bright sunshine fall over me and the MPPT box jumped to 12Amps out, began charging the LBs and also switched in the load, which then fired up the BB1230. 

The system looks like it will operate flawlessly.

Engine battery currently at 14V.

The objective was to have the solar panels manage both LBs & EB, this looks like the objective has been met, time will tell if they are exceeed - I've always had a tendancy to over-deliver.

But the entire thing is based on having enough sunshine of course.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 7, 2018)

*update at the close of day*

It's dusk here on the w/sussex coast and the last of today's light is almost gone.
As normal, this is when the solar charging system sleeps.

The BM1230 has also gone to sleep and is silent.

The engine and leisure batteries are at 100% charge.


I fitted and connected the BM1230 around midday today and gave it a 50% depleted, shagged out battery to sort out.

The afternoon was spent watching the system like a new parent.

The Victron MPPT controller and the Sterling BB1230 have spent the afternoon chatting to each other, while sharing the available solar power between themselves and each of the Aux and engine batteries.

The result is both Aux & Engine batteries are ending the day in a fully charged state.

This is half a day of dull greyness with a couple of short sunny spells.

I have to give credit to the Victron kit, the controller and aux batteries are superb and the Sterling bb1230 seems to be very efficient.

This is only half a day, I'll be keeping an eye on it over the next day or so, but I am very impressed so far.

Made I right chuffed Jeffro


james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 7, 2018)

You've mentioned the B2B noise a few times. Is it a very noisy bit of kit then?  Given it has a good IP rating is it worth fitting in the engine bay or external locker to get it out your living area?  (I guess on the plus side, it will always be quiet overnight  )

Ref the Victron Kit ... it does seem to extract power well.  Just looked at my info and the MPPT controller is going to sleep at 10PM and waking up again at 4AM at the moment (quite a bit north of you of course).  not a massive amount of power harvested at the those times, but a good indication.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

wildebus said:


> You've mentioned the B2B noise a few times. Is it a very noisy bit of kit then?  Given it has a good IP rating is it worth fitting in the engine bay or external locker to get it out your living area?  (I guess on the plus side, it will always be quiet overnight  )
> 
> Ref the Victron Kit ... it does seem to extract power well.  Just looked at my info and the MPPT controller is going to sleep at 10PM and waking up again at 4AM at the moment (quite a bit north of you of course).  not a massive amount of power harvested at the those times, but a good indication.



The Sterling has a fan inside somewhere that is about as loud as a desktop computer, it doesn't activate always, I've watched the BB1230 light up and begin charging without the fan, which kicks in intermittently.

If I had another place to install the BB1230, out of sight, I would have gone for it, however, the front panel leds do provide useful info so placing it in the engine compartment will lose you this feedback. It can be installed with a remote monitor, which will provide the owner with real-time info, but in my case, I'm getting the battery voltage via the BM1, which is enough info for my needs.

An unscientific guess is that when it's input voltage is at or near it lowest operating threshold and it has up lift the output voltage to meet the battery needs, it gets warm and the fan kicks in.
Yesterday the fan was on/off at random times, all afternoon. The battery it is charging was 50% down and is suspect anyway.
However, as I mentioned above, all batteries ended the day fully topped up.

Overnight was silent, as expected and so far, this morning, there is not enough sunshine to switch the load terminals on.

One extra bonus for me is that I have now configured the NASA BM1 monitor to also watch the Starter battery, so I have both batteries' status available on one screen. As I have installed the BB1230 adjacent to the MPPT controller and BM1, it was just a short length of cable between the BB1230 and the BM1 to achieve this.

Weather forecast for this area is another grey day so I won't get much opportunity to have it working as hard as it could me.

I'm confident that this configuration will meet all of my needs while off-grid.

james


----------



## wildebus (Jun 8, 2018)

Noise can be a major annoyance can't it, even when not that pronounced.
I cannot sleep with a ticking clock for example.  And my camper is fitted with a Tachometer that is faulty and sounds like a .... Yup 
Plus it is probably a battery drain.  I have 1 of 3 cables that power it, but if I seperate them to find which, I cannot reconnect to the battery again as the post stud is too short for extra connector rings. 
The sound aspect is one reason why I chose Victron kit - it is physically much larger than equivalents (in power rating terms) as they have focussed on passive cooling with heatsinks rather than active cooling with fans. So my inverter is on 24/7 but is totally silent except for an overpower 'thud' when the fridge kicks in.  I am in two minds about getting a more powerful one just to avoid that but talking hundreds of pounds and no practical/technical requirement to do so.
The Fridge itself is totally silent as well.  Many people seem to have an issue with compressor fridge noise but I hear nothing and the only sound is if I turn the 4" fan on screwed to the back for cooling. 


Maybe you could stick the B2B in some insulation to cut the noise but enough ventilation?


----------



## n brown (Jun 8, 2018)

re; finding the feed to tacho, stick a pin in each wire and test


----------



## wildebus (Jun 8, 2018)

n brown said:


> re; finding the feed to tacho, stick a pin in each wire and test


Test for what? 
I'm talking about 4/6mm cables from the battery and so permanent live.  And all 4 cables are connected together with a single crimped ring connector so electrically connected.  
talking this nest of cabling here



LT-Battery-12V by David, on Flickr
(and as you can see, there is no stud visible left, so can't risk ANOTHER two connecters on top!)
So while I appreciate the reply and suggestion, can't see how it will help, sorry.

(I don't want to take the dash apart and will just stick a resettable breaker on the relevant source feed to remove power - it will loose power to the dash generally, but the tachos are designed to be tamperproof and would do the same if power removed specifically from the Tacho I was advised by a Tacho removal specialist)


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

*BB1230 active on a cliudy day*




Here is a picture of the BB1230 struggling to work on a grey and cloudy day.

The other equipment is the Victron MPPT controller (old/new stock) from around 2012.
The NASA BM1 battery monitor
Sterling BB1230 DC -  DC charger.

I am just off to Toolstation to get some more trunking to hide the cabling.


----------



## wildebus (Jun 8, 2018)

The Sterling stuff is good quality but really looks like it comes from ToysRus 
Shame they don't go a bit more ... understated?


----------



## Admin (Jun 8, 2018)

I have deleted a couple of posts from this thread because of some name calling.

Please keep this thread on topic.


----------



## Admin (Jun 8, 2018)

*Ad Hominem

Ad Hominem comments/personal attacks towards anyone (dead or alive) - is subject to the message being deleted and action being taken against the user, regardless of how pertinent or thoughtful the rest of the message might be.
**
Forum Etiquette



**1. Respect the netiquette: get to know the forum before you post.

2. Do not post negative posts and discussions that are repeated over and over and over with no other purpose than to disrupt the conversation.

3. Do not disrupt multiple threads in order to get your view out.

4. You may not bait/troll members.

5. You may not bait, insult, flame, or otherwise, abuse a staff member.

6. You may not post graphically-disturbing/insulting images.

7. You may not post in a manner that is harmful to the site.

8. You may not post 'discussions/debates' on Wildcamping.co.uk or any part of the company.

9. Do not write in all capital letters, its considered shouting and is quite hard to read.

10. When you ask "what's best", this question cannot always be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!

11. Remain respectful of other members, moderators and administrators at all times.



All posts should be professional and courteous. You have every right to disagree with your fellow community members and explain your perspective, but do it in a respectful and non-dismissive manner.


However, you are not free to attack, degrade, insult, or otherwise belittle them or the quality of this community. It does not matter what title or power you hold in these forums, or if you have paid to be here, you are expected to obey these rules. Doing otherwise will get your account banned temporarily, or permanently if the situation becomes severe enough (this will be left to the discretion of the moderation team). Please remember to stay mature and thoughtful at all times.


*If a certain member continues to belittle or use condescending remarks towards other members, then they will no longer be able to post. I am fed up with having to deal with complaints about this member. It is such a shame as this member is really smart, it is a shame that they like talking to others like ****.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

*I'm done with this thread - Many Thanks to everone who contributed.*

For me, this thread is closed as Completed and Successful.

I began the thread with a question, which cropped up when I found myself with a free source of power available, courtesy of the Victron MPPT Solar Controller's LOAD terminals.

I was expecting to progress with my other jobs and forget about this function, I had no need of it as I thought that the EBL-100 would be managing both batteries when on solar as it does when on a 220v EHU or when driving.

I briefly explored other uses for the load terminals, perhaps to run the 3x way fridge on 12v, or warm up the water in the tank, but I thought that this function would be redundant.

At the time of the question, I was blissfully unaware that my grand design had an omission.

I was mistaken in my understanding of the Schaudtt Elecktroblok EBL-100.1 functionality.

That omission was, when off-grid and stationary, the EBL ONLY charged the leisure batteries from the solar panels and it completely ignores the engine battery. I had a proper schaudtt solar regulator connected into the correct EBL socket but this only passed around 15A to the leisure batteries and zero to the starter battery.

I also had a low level drain on the starter battery, but no method of re-charging it.

So I replaced the Schaudtt PWM solar controller with a Victron Blue Energy MPPT controller, wired directly to the 2x Victron AGM Super Cycle leisure batteries, 460Ah in total. 
Panels are 3x80watt & 1x100watt, up on the roof.
A NASA BM1 battery monitor gives me an insight into the status of the leisure batteries and the engine battery voltage.

I ignored the EBL-100 in this new configuration, as it was a bottleneck when used in the conventional and "normal" way. 

The same panels can now be expected to give me a max of around 25Amps in bright sunshine available directly to the batteries.
Whereas the Schaudtt solar controller has a max of 15 Amps to inject into the EBL-100.

That is a huge improvement from the same panels just by upgrading the solar controller.


Here was a potential opportunity to answer my own question by using the MPPT load terminals to keep the engine battery topped up.
I figured that I should be able to end up with 2x solar charging sources configured to properly manage each of the different needs for each the starter battery (95Ah lead acid) and the leisure batteries (460Ah AGM super Cycle).

Part of the reason that I have spent so much time in research, discussion, trial and error, is that I have just invested over £1000 in just 2 new leisure batteries and I needed to ensure that they had the best parenting possible.

I wanted to forget about electric when off-grid and not be limited to 3 or 4 days before being forced to drive, just to get re-charged. I had to up-sticks and drive on 3 or 4 occasions on my last adventure around Iberia, so my intention was to remove this as a limitation, Iberia has plenty of free solar energy - gimme.

The remaining limitations of fresh water and waste disposal are the two main influencers to high-quality "loafing in the sunshine" time now that perpetual free solar is in-service and available for me.

Many of the suggestions made here were based upon switching.

Where you only have one source of charge, albeit alternator, ehu or solar and 2 batteries (leisure and engine), there is a case for a switching arrangement for charging both from the same source. 

However the switching route is not appropriate in this instance, because :

A) I Have 2 different battery types to manage, lead-acid and AGM Super Cycle. Each of which have hugely different capacities and different charging needs. 
The same source cannot be used by both unless the charging profiles could also be switched.
The source power is supplied by the MPPT controller which is configured for AGM. if I then switch the charging onto a lead-acid battery, it will not be getting the correct charging profile.

B) I have a no-cost spare pair of terminals giving away free solar electric at 14v and 14 Amps, so why wouldn't I use this to charge the engine battery ?

The solution was never going to be no-cost, because I need a bridge of sorts between the source and the battery which had to be a proper charger, preferably configurable for specific battery types.

I eventually settled for the Sterling BB1230 DC to DC charger installed in a non-standard way by using the MPPT load terminals as a source for the BB1230 which uses this to properly manage the starter battery.

I won't get into body politics, but the BB1230 is one ugly beast. But it has performed very well and works perfectly with the Victron MPPT. They work cooperativly in sharing the available solar power to properly charge both batteries independently of each other and each is being charged according to each different needs.

The Schaudtt EBL didn't get an invite to this party, it remains simply to distribute 12v around the van, while off-grid. It's charging functions are not utilised. The standard EBL functionality remains unchanged and are used when driving or on a 220v EHU.

I booted the Sterling on Thursday midday, a dull and grey day with only sparse burst of sunshine breaking through. the panels and the Victron were struggling to scrounge any power.

I also gave the Sterling a knackered starter battery, at 50% depletion, to restore.
Quite a challenge for the new kid on the block.

The afternoon saw the system struggling to make something out of the gloomy light.
The Sterling was getting warm and the cooling fan was cutting in and out for most of the afternoon. 

Close of day seen both batteries fully charged.- Success !

Today, Friday started gloomy and improving by mid afternoon with some bright sunshine. More light for the MPPT box to eat.

The Sterling has been silent all day and working happily with the Victron and together they have kept all batteries topped up.

This result is, as I had hoped for, even achieved at such low light levels.

The Sterling probably had the hardest day's work it will ever get, yesterday. Call it an initiation.
Future times should see it only having to maintain an already charged battery, between park ups or long lay-offs.

I intend to reward the Sterling with a new Bosch or Varta engine battery, may they live happily ever after.
----------------------------

The advice, suggestions and comments that have been generated in this thread has been a pleasant and constructive experience which has greatly helped me to arrive at a successful conclusion.

The quality of the inputs and the attention to the details have been of a very high standard. I thank everyone for that, it has helped me to get a result that is looking to exceed my expectations.

And Thank you for the snipers and hecklers, you have been greatly entertaining while at the same time, undermining your own credibility, a feeling called schadenfreude just stroked my Chakras. Thanks again.

Every single proclamation of failure, doom, disaster, etc, has proven to be empty pomposity. Ego, not fact based.

as Sun Szu advises, "Never interrupt your opponent, when they are making a mistake".

Love & Light, 

james

Edit / Update Saturday:

I've left time for the system to settle in while I have been keeping a close eye on everything.

I'm more than satisfied with the result, so I did a bit more testing today.

This upgrade has basically ignored the factory fit charging system and is feeding each of the batteries directly and independently of each other.

I have now tested the co-operation of my upgrade with the EBL-100, while on 220V EHU and secondly, when the engine is running.

Everything worked perfectly.

I've already been living full time in the van for the last 3 weeks without the 220v EHU plugged in. 

That's all from free solar and my leisure batteries have hardly noticed, now that the engine battery is getting a tan from the sunshine, I can confidently look forward to the PV system providing me with my current daily needs. 

I'll be testing a few 220v appliances soon, there are a few things that I would like to use on a regular basis.

NutriBullet for my daily fruit soups, Espresso machine and once a week, a quick go around with the Henry, to clear up after the Jack Russsell has been moulting.

That will obviously deplete the leisure batteries by a lot more than usual but will allow me to give the PV system a bit more work to do.

james









/


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

Admin said:


> I have deleted a couple of posts from this thread because of some name calling.
> 
> Please keep this thread on topic.



Sorry Phil and you other dear readers, 

I've been baited throughout this thread and today I took a bite.

james


----------



## Deleted member 35703 (Jun 8, 2018)

I for one have enjoyed the read and the journey some extremely good information in the posts and very rewarding 
Great thread


----------



## wildebus (Jun 8, 2018)

FringeDweller said:


> For me, this thread is closed as Completed and Successful.
> 
> .....
> 
> james



Just a suggestion if I may.  Come back to this thread in a few months time - maybe at the end of season and update how things have worked out.

I know quite a few folk questioned my sanity in choosing an AC fridge over the accepted DC 'standard' and I found it has worked as I hoped and in fact more so and maybe even changed a few minds over the sense of spending hundreds of pounds extra for something just because it is for an recreational vehicle as I have updated that thread.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

Adria home said:


> I for one have enjoyed the read and the journey some extremely good information in the posts and very rewarding
> Great thread



The internet and forums such as this one are gold mines of information, and a rich source of data, styles, techniques ,instruction and anyone can access and use any of it.

The ease that we can all access, share and discuss any topic under the sun, is truly amazing if you step back and look at the bigger picture. Cooperative and collaborative efforts will always result in synergy. The more pieces of the jigsaw you can see, then everyone gets to see the bigger picture and make wiser and better informed decisions. 

When I was a schoolkid, I was always in the library, this followed me into later life, when I was always reading.

In those days researching a topic was really hard slog.

I was superbly lucky to be part of the teams that built and managed the internet itself.
I was also lucky to be working in a blue chip research lab, when we got some pre-release IBM desktop computers to work on.

We were already using an internal, global data network to use email and document exchanges in the 70's.

Nowadays everyone and anyone can use it and benefit.

We live in interesting times

just a ramble

james


----------



## Deleted member 35703 (Jun 8, 2018)

Yep well said


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Just a suggestion if I may.  Come back to this thread in a few months time - maybe at the end of season and update how things have worked out.
> 
> I know quite a few folk questioned my sanity in choosing an AC fridge over the accepted DC 'standard' and I found it has worked as I hoped and in fact more so and maybe even changed a few minds over the sense of spending hundreds of pounds extra for something just because it is for an recreational vehicle as I have updated that thread.



I'm not planning on leaving the forum, I enjoy the company here. 

I'd be happy to do periodic updates and share the success and failures.

I really know what you mean when folks put down new ideas and concepts. Its a simple fact of life that a large number of people learn the "rules" and blindly quote them as if there are no other alternatives. In my book that is plain dogma.

Dogma has no place in my thinking, Dogma is simply blind faith with no questions.

Mankind would never advance without new ideas and practices, make the mistakes, it's how we learn.

I'm going for a decent PSW Inverter at some near stage and I will try out your approach, I want to use either straight 12v from the solar system or via an inverter to remove the need for lpg. My fridge seems to run better on 220v anyway.

Perhaps we can get a thread going when I start to focus on my installation..

I'm focusing on the supply and distribution right now, I'll be getting to the appliances etc when I'm done with the "heavy" stuff.

I'm grounded right now, unable to travel.

recent events have now given me a rough target date of end August for a time to get back on the road.

I have a lot of electrics to complete and other jobs on the van, while going through the selling of a house and a change of address for me. 

So some things will get put on a back burner for a while,

james.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 8, 2018)

wildebus said:


> Test for what?
> I'm talking about 4/6mm cables from the battery and so permanent live.  And all 4 cables are connected together with a single crimped ring connector so electrically connected.
> talking this nest of cabling here
> 
> ...



I am dreading changing the engine battery through the Hymer letterbox. 
I've been in there a few times already, wedged in the golden-rivet position, while trying to fathom *** is this rats nest actually doing, and how ?

I'll upload a couple of pictures, I'll show you what a real rats nest looks like.
edit: must have used a banned expression there.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Jun 10, 2018)

Nabsim said:


> You would have thought they would keep some made for the RV/Motorhome/Boat class as everyone says its is growing. Maybe decided they have a different market though but none of that will help here unfortunately. I know my voltronic has the output for lb and starter but you need to get the Duo range for that option.
> 
> @ James, when you have charge going in to your leisure batteries does it show on your original control panel? My DT101 does not have an input for the controller like later ones do but it shows whatever voltage is on leisure battery bank and starter battery along with + or - amps on leisure batteries. I 'think' you only get that if you connect through the EBL but interested to know if it can display when not going though like yours is.



Apologies, I never noticed that your reply required a response.

A bit late, but....

The Hymer has a schaudtt DT200 display panel over the hab door.

It can only report what the EBL is seeing at the battery terminals. It reports the correct battery voltages and whatever charging current is going through the EBL-100 internal shunt resistor.

However, I have by-passed the EBL with my solar upgrade so the EBL can see the battery voltages but it cannot see the PV charging current. 

The NASA BM1 battery monitor can see the all of the charging current to the aux batteries wherever the voltage originate, (engine/EHU/Solar) as it has it's own shunt located next to the battery bank. It doesn't measure the charging current going to the starter battery, only the voltage.

So I don't have a single place to look, I look at both the DT-200 and the BM1 with some voltage and status info on the front panel of the Sterling BB1230.  Not ideal, but workable.

james


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Dec 9, 2018)

*Update, 6 months after installation*

Update after system has been in daily use for 6 months. 

The motorhome has largely been on an EHU since I completed the upgrade in June. I ran on 100% solar for a few weeks of sunny weather in the summer the system exceeded my expectations. 

I am now mobile again and have spent most of the last 22 days off the grid, with the exception of a free EHU in Northern Italy (3 days).

There has been little sunshine so far, but I am heading to Iberia where I am expecting lots of bright sunshine on the panels.

The lowest that the aux batteries have fallen to is 75%, with very little solar input, the engine has been maintaining all batteries, usually restoring the max of 105% after half a day of driving.

So, overall I'm happy with the results, very happy.


Many Thanks for all of your various comments, suggestions and help, a great use of a forum.

Loafing about around Tarifa for a while will see plenty of opportunity for the PV system to show it's abilities.

james


----------



## trevskoda (Apr 21, 2019)

FringeDweller said:


> Neither do I, hence the questions posed.
> 
> I'm tending towards trickle charging the starter battery via a 12v to 12v charger as I suspect that, by removing the LR1218 Elektroblock unit, I also removed the solar charging of said engine battery.
> 
> ...



What about this then or two of the other units linked as one for each battery,im now using this and its working well.


----------



## Deleted member 62288 (Apr 23, 2019)

Thanks Trev, that is an impressive spec for a very low price. Is it too good to be true ?
Using 2 of these, one for each battery would / could have resolved my initial conundrum, an elegant, simple and cheap solution. A good choice you've made.
Certainly cheaper that what I eventually settled on.

However, This project was completed last summer - the system has worked in excess of my hopes & aspirations. for the last 12 months.
I'm happy that I have both the engine & auxiliary batteries at full capacity from the 3x charging options that I have.

The LOAD terminals of the Victron MPPT controller are connected to the input of a Sterling B2B which is dedicated to only engine battery management - engine battery is a standard lead/acid type. The B2B is configured for lead/acid.

The regular output of the MPPT unit connects directly across the Victron deep cycle AGM's - it does nothing else. The MPPT controller is set to a Gel/AGM charging profile.

I did it this way because the charging profiles required for two different battery types can not be handled by a simple split-charge relay. 


This configuration offers me :
A) on 220v ehu, The engine battery is ignored in the standard Hymer factory fit configuration. I now have it being charged from the PV sub-system, using the Sterling B2B.
B) PV system now charges both battery types with a priority on the AUX AGM pair.
C) Engine alternator charges both battery types via the EBL.

AUX batteries are a pair of 230 Ah Victron Deep cycle AGM units, capacity 460 Ah. A pair of these cost me around £1000, 
I didn't want to simply use a relay for charge-source switching as this would not give the AGMs a correct charging profile and affect the battery life or performance.

With a split-charge relay, a single battery type is set at the charging unit and shared between battery A and battery B, one of which is always going to be incorrect 

Result is unlimited 12v reserve for a system that charges and maintains all batteries, even while off-grid, parked up or in storage.

james


----------

