# Cornwall - Overnight parking banned in 240 car parks



## Talbot (Oct 3, 2013)

Cornwall Council want to encourage motorhome owners to park in one of Cornwalls 312 holiday parks. Read the article here: 

Cornwall Council - Motorhome parking 

I am surprised that there appear to be no council officials who own a motorhome. If they did they wouldn't be hostile to us visiting Cornwall. Instead, they would understand that motorhomes are completely self sufficient and don't require camp site facilities being forced on them at £20 to £40 just to park up for the night. Why is it that France, Germany and other European countries 'GET IT'. They understand that motorhomes don't require fancy toilet blocks, showers, cabaret and entertainment. All owners need is a tap, and a grey water and black water emptying point. That is it. Hence, we are all accustomed to paying anywhere from free per night to 2 euros to 7 euros per night in motorhome spellplatz and Aires in many parts of Europe.

This is how short sighted our council officials are. Having just come back from 2 weeks holiday in Scotland, I managed to spend £5 one night to park on a farmers field 2 yards from the sea in beautiful surroundings. Worth every penny. The other 13 nights I wild camped for free. However, I spent £400 for a weeks salmon fishing on the Dee near Ballater. My waders leaked, so I purchased a new pair of chest waders £200. It was my birthday and my wife bought me a new pair of binoculars £320. My wife shopped when I fished and spent over £400 on new clothes. We ate out in restaurants or pubs 5 times in the 2 weeks, another £180. We bought food and drinks including a whiskey tour and purchased a bottle of malt £40. I purchased £80 of diesel from a garage in Scotland to get back home.

I own a house as well as a motorhome. I pay what I consider extortionate council tax each year to these same council officials who want to ban us from their car parks. I say to council officials, get real, get educated, talk to your counterparts in Germany and France and start creating facilities for motorhomes in your respective counties. Instead of buying 'no overnight parking' signs and littering them all over council car parks and fining respectable honest and law abiding citizens £70, come and talk to motorhome owners and find out what our needs are. We don't bite and it's never to late to start.


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## Sharon the Cat (Oct 3, 2013)

You word your reply so well Talbot, I hope you've sent it to Cornwall Council too.


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## oldish hippy (Oct 3, 2013)

Think it shoulkd be sent out to a few councils and maybe they will see the error of their way  idoubt it at all  
just answer me one query as regard aires and the german sites please are thier still caravan parks /motorhome park in vicinity of them as i would have thought that owners would be up in arms or do they co exist along side them by offering better faciltys


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## Aladdinsane (Oct 3, 2013)

Not sure how they stand legally here. It looks like they have made up new definitions for a category of vehicle that does not exist! My V5 says 'Motorcaravan' Their criteria certainly do not match the DVLA's.

Quote "A motorhome is defined as any vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a mobile place of sleeping – ranging from a custom-built motorhome to an estate car with a mattress in the back"


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## piston broke (Oct 3, 2013)

That's a well constructed letter Talbot and makes the point very well, it would be well worth sending it to:-
MP's in Cornwall
Minister for tourism
Local councils.
Isn't there somewhere on line for Epetitions?


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## David & Ann (Oct 3, 2013)

Talbot said:


> Cornwall Council want to encourage motorhome owners to park in one of Cornwalls 312 holiday parks. Read the article here:
> 
> Cornwall Council - Motorhome parking
> 
> ...



Hi Talbot
A really good letter which you should send to the Council, except for a tiny error as we look at it BUT a major point when expressing a point to the Council. The word THEIR which I have typed in your post should be as written (OUR) car parks. Perhaps it would be a good idea is to reword the letter as an official letter from Wild Camping members which can be counter signed like a petition. I would gladly put my name to it. I wonder what our Members think !!!!


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## Talbot (Oct 3, 2013)

oldish hippy said:


> Think it shoulkd be sent out to a few councils and maybe they will see the error of their way  idoubt it at all
> just answer me one query as regard aires and the german sites please are thier still caravan parks /motorhome park in vicinity of them as i would have thought that owners would be up in arms or do they co exist along side them by offering better faciltys



To clarify, I believe there are over 4,000 Aires in France. They can be found in almost every rural village, town and coastal resorts. They are strictly for motorhomes. Some offer no facilities at all, others may have a drinking water tap, and some have a tap and grey/black water emptying point. Occasionally you can find some with a toilet and even a shower. Some are free to use, while others could cost anywhere from 2 euros - 12 euros a night in a prestigious location (especially on the Riviera). We stopped at one last year by the side of a river for 3 euros a night including EHU, a toilet and water.

Germany is a bit different as they sometimes allow tuggers to camp on a spellplatz. Prices and services are similar to French Aires, although I would say there aren't quite so many.


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 3, 2013)

Aladdinsane said:


> Not sure how they stand legally here. It looks like they have made up new definitions for a category of vehicle that does not exist! My V5 says 'Motorcaravan' Their criteria certainly do not match the DVLA's.
> 
> Quote "A motorhome is defined as any vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a mobile place of sleeping – ranging from a custom-built motorhome to an estate car with a mattress in the back"



point well made here .
it seems that want it both ways well the locaouncil council do .we have absolute laws with dvla etc like u need to do x before its classesd as a m home yet a council tries and i use the wrod tries as il like to see it tested in court state a m home can be an estate car with mattress well anyone knows that if you put a mattress in a estate car or eve a small panel van with nothing else done dvla would reject your application to change v5 as i have said beofre the council know the rules they now that they carnt break them so they try scare tatics as ppl have said on here if you see a sign with o parking even with no tro with a council logo 99 ppl out of a 100 would not park as would be worried, the lgo local government association i feel are the one who need to be told about this yet i think they know already and lets be honest how many ppl have the time mey knoledge or guts to pull the council up, I did on suthing diffrent related a couple of years ao  even tho i won with all the hassle, cost (nearly 4000 pounds in my case which thankfully i got back)k  worry of losing it wasnt worth it. and if you did try they would throw every penny of your tax payers money to try ad defend it. wild camping is all abut cofidaance even in the samm time ive been doing sum wildcaping ive grow in confidence and with the exception of private land take no notice of these little signs that arnt legal that have no tro. also thin of it in a bean councting way if you wild camp the chances are you will get done once with a fine prob under 100 pound every 50 nights its less than 2 pounnd a night and thats without even contesting it


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## Teutone (Oct 3, 2013)

all well said but who gives a $hit? (government I mean)

Aires in France and Stellplatz in germany only works because they don't have a certain traveler problem.
Just imagine if there would be places in England where you can just turn up with your rig and water and toilets are provided. Just image this for a second and you know why england will never have loads of aires.

I don't mean to offend anybody with the right mindset but there are just too many about who would abuse it.


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 3, 2013)

i think thiers a business model here

charge a memebr 10.00 per year as insurance to pay for any fine a council is susscful  as long as the car park or highway that is not breaking road traffic law i.e double yellows obstuction etc as long as the user take a quick pick on thier phone of the sign showing no tro

you can then centalise the system so its easier to defend against empoy a solciotr for a few hours a year to ask advice re case law  i,e template letters. wont be long before loads of ppl jin thenwhen the council start to lose all the cases and eventual not bothering to defend them we may get change


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## Talbot (Oct 3, 2013)

Teutone said:


> all well said but who gives a $hit? (government I mean)
> 
> Aires in France and Stellplatz in germany only works because they don't have a certain traveler problem.
> Just imagine if there would be places in England where you can just turn up with your rig and water and toilets are provided. Just image this for a second and you know why england will never have loads of aires.
> ...



Personally, I'm not fussed either way. I don't require a tap or a toilet. I'd be happy to park overnight in one of Cornwall's 240 motorhome exempt car parks and not get a £70 fine.


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 3, 2013)

Talbot said:


> Personally, I'm not fussed either way. I don't require a tap or a toilet. I'd be happy to park overnight in one of Cornwall's 240 motorhome exempt car parks and not get a £70 fine.



you right but without being rude they rely on ppl like you not being fussed that's their best weapon, apathy


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## Talbot (Oct 3, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> you right but without being rude they rely on ppl like you not being fussed that's their best weapon, apathy



Yes, but I was addressing teutones point as he/she seem to be worried about new age travellers descending on a purpose made aire with water and a loo!!:lol-049:


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## Deleted member 919 (Oct 3, 2013)

Never been to Cornwall and now doesn't look like i ever will .Plenty of other places to go


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## Deleted member 919 (Oct 3, 2013)

These sales figures are interesting as it shows there is a drop in new motorhome sales on last year
http://www.e-c-f.org/fileadmin/templates/4825/images/statistics/europazul-4.pdf


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## Smaug (Oct 3, 2013)

rebbyvid said:


> These sales figures are interesting as it shows there is a drop in new motorhome sales on last year
> http://www.e-c-f.org/fileadmin/templates/4825/images/statistics/europazul-4.pdf



But that's just a reflection on the economy isn't it?


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2013)

Teutone said:


> all well said but who gives a $hit? (government I mean)
> 
> Aires in France and Stellplatz in germany only works because they don't have a certain traveler problem.
> Just imagine if there would be places in England where you can just turn up with your rig and water and toilets are provided. Just image this for a second and you know why england will never have loads of aires.
> ...



in france there was a problem . they then set up proper sites for travellers . .uk was going to then didnt . there are loads of traveller sites if france . i stop on them sometimes . always made welcome . there is a name for them cant remember it . but they are more out of town usually .


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## yorkslass (Oct 3, 2013)

vwalan said:


> in france there was a problem . they then set up proper sites for travellers . .uk was going to then didnt . there are loads of traveller sites if france . i stop on them sometimes . always made welcome . there is a name for them cant remember it . but they are more out of town usually .



you"ve just answered my question. we can"t be the only country with travellers, yet it does"nt seem to be a problem anywhere else.


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2013)

most eu countries have traveller sites . 
uk is a bit behind thats all.


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## yorkslass (Oct 3, 2013)

the way councils carry on in this country I think we must be light years behind.


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2013)

trouble is they dont want to follow eu law if it doesnt suit them . 
they have been known to break all sorts of rules . nobody is to blame they just make mistakes .
yet we make a mistake they punish us . 
try googling ...alan dawe speeding chideock dorset . 
that cost them .hee hee .


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## Older Gurna (Oct 3, 2013)

vwalan said:


> trouble is they dont want to follow eu law if it doesnt suit them .
> .



...In a Nutshell M8! (Speaking also as a smoker who gets treated as a criminal bringing back more than their 'recommended' amount!!)


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## vwalan (Oct 3, 2013)

if duty is payed in an eu country you can bring as much back as you like . its only a crime if you sell it . 
bit like wine beer etc . duty payed is ok . bought in gibralter or andorra etc . then there is a limit .


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## Older Gurna (Oct 3, 2013)

Alan, I KNOW M8!!! Prob. is, the Rev. Crooks at the UK Borders are there to try & confiscate our LEGALLY PURCHASED goods!! (See the Nothing to Declare W/S not sure if link allowed.....)


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## Jean Genie (Oct 4, 2013)

Smaug said:


> But that's just a reflection on the economy isn't it?



Not really, it has just been on the radio that new car sales have just risen at near record rates.


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## Seannachie (Oct 8, 2013)

Talbot said:


> Cornwall Council want to encourage motorhome owners to park in one of Cornwalls 312 holiday parks. Read the article here:
> 
> Cornwall Council - Motorhome parking



Interesting link but I noticed some inconsistencies in their avowed policy as their official web-page states, inter alia:

1. The article starts thus: "_As a Council we want to support local businesses and encourage visitors to use the many high quality motorhome and camp sites throughout Cornwall._"

2. And it subsequently states "_Motorhomes can continue to use all Council car parks (where motorhome parking is a permitted vehicle class), during the day, but cannot park in the 17 car parks listed...between the hours of 11.30pm and 8am._"  

3. The article then ends with this footnote: "_*A motorhome is defined as any vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a mobile place of sleeping – ranging from a custom-built motorhome to an estate car with a mattress in the back._"

4. Having spent a decade actually living in Cornwall, and subsequently spent many a time camping there, I have never yet discovered a "_high quality motorhome site_" which would consider "_an estate car with a mattress in the back_" as a motorhome and allow the occupants to use it as one. Even the Camping & Caravanning Club, which does have high-quality sites in Cornwall, has a policy which does enable campers to sleep in their estate cars but only if the views through the vehicle windows can be blocked from outside view and the occupants have a separate tent for changing in. 

5. More importantly than point 4, the DVLA do not consider "_an estate car with a mattress in the back_" as  constituting a motorhome, and I doubt whether the courts would either, whichever method they use to interpret the issue, as the word "_motorhome_" has to be given its proper meaning, i.e., as applied by the DVLA, a Government Agency, not the arbitrary distortion of meaning attempting to be applied by Cornwall Council.

6. Furthermore, a literal interpretation of Cornwall Council's diktat shows it to be a nonsense, to wit: anyone simply parking but not sleeping in "_an estate car with a mattress in the back_" in any one of the designated "_17 car parks listed...between the hours of 11.30pm and 8am._" will, by definition, be committing an absolute offence and, consequently, "_...in contravention of the overnight parking ban [and] will be issued with a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) for £70.00._" . Since when has the mere possession of a mattress constituted an offence in English law? 

7. Further idiocy is added by the fact that the Council insists that "_Motorhomes can continue to use all [240] Council car parks (where motorhome parking is a permitted vehicle class), during the day...", which means that where "motorhomes", as defined by them, are not "a permitted vehicle class" then it is illegal to park "an estate car with a mattress in the back". Pity help any of the locals who are moving home then with their kit in the back of their estate car and have to park up in, say, the Council Offices car park in Penzance in order to sort out their Council Tax or whatever. 

8. In short it is a lot of nonsense, but as it would mean a trip to court in Cornwall to argue one's case, it is better simply to stay away from Cornwall Council's car-parks and either wild or, better still, not bother going there and take your money elsewhere.

:mad1:_


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## Aladdinsane (Oct 8, 2013)

Seannachie said:


> Interesting link but I noticed some inconsistencies in their avowed policy as their official web-page states, inter alia:
> 
> 1. The article starts thus: "_As a Council we want to support local businesses and encourage visitors to use the many high quality motorhome and camp sites throughout Cornwall._"
> 
> ...


_
It's all bulls**t. 'motorhome' is not a class of vehicle, and no authority can invent a class and then ban it. Their legal department must be pulling their hair out!

Go to Devon just down the road. Motor homes can stay in car parks | This is North Devon They do use the term 'motorhomes' though!_


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## barryd (Oct 8, 2013)

There are loads of travellers in France.  As has been said there are sites for them but they DO take over Aires when they feel like it.  Ive seen it a few times and in France and Italy.  You turf up and its full of travellers.  Doesnt happen often but it does happen.  The thing is though they dont last long as the Gendarmes will just move in one morning and physically chuck em off.  They dont mess about.

Campsites in France and other countries dont seem to be fussed about Aires or wild camping.  Most even provide services for motorhomes who are passing.  I think they realise that most motorhomes dont want a site and accept that.  Rather make a few quid out of selling some water than nothing at all.  Many sites in Europe even have Aires / Stellplatz outside the main camp at a much reduced rate.  This would make sense here but do they do it?  Do they $hite!  Its how we are perceived in the UK that gets my goat.  In Europe I think we have much more respect.  To own a camping car in France is a great thing.  here they just think your a freeloading gypsie.  And thats another thing.  The Brits cant stand to think somebody is getting something for nothing.  Most of them are too dim to consider that we might just bring a few quid into struggling businesses.  

I spend about £1000 a month on average when motorhoming (more in the UK) and tour at least six months of the year.  90% of that is overseas.  So thats at least £5K lost and thats just me.  Stuff em.


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## El Veterano (Oct 9, 2013)

Just got back from yet another trip to France (Burgundy and back). Total spent around £980 for 10 days for the 2 of us, motorway tolls about £14 as we stayed off tolled motorways. Overnight charges £0, spend in UK £0 (with the exception of the Tunnel which was discounted with Tesco vouchers). We came back with tons of cheese, loads of wine and we still have 3/4 of a tank of French diesel (€1.28 a litre). We had 2 really good meals and 1 fairly average meal in restaurants. But my point is that because of the ease of traveling by motorhome in France the French economy has benefited by nearly 1k from our small trip there. Every single day we put money into the French local economy around where we stayed, whether it be a couple of croissants or a full blown meal, a tank full of fuel or €120 spend in the supermarket.
The UK has missed out yet again.


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## Bushtrekker (Oct 9, 2013)

*Cornwall are also anti-metal detectorists, so are infringing my human rights.*

Dear Cornwall,
                     I don't want to park on one of your holiday sites for several reasons.

1/ Their charges are extortionate.

2/ They are full of people.

3/ They are noisy.

4/ They provide nothing, apart from toilet emptying and water, that I actually need, not even dedicated drains for grey water disposal.

5/ They are usually run by control freaks who want to tell me where to park and what time I have to arrive and depart.

All of the above defeats what is for me and many others the whole point of owning a motorhome, being able to travel round and park up in quiet places, sampling local food and supporting small local shops instead of driving miles to a supermarket, spending money which would otherwise be wasted on paying for services which we neither need, or want.


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## vwalan (Oct 9, 2013)

Bushtrekker said:


> Dear Cornwall,
> I don't want to park on one of your holiday sites for several reasons.
> 
> 1/ Their charges are extortionate.
> ...



hi, in reply to your letter we thought it would be only right to inform you we have considered the remarks you brought up. 
its still abit like the old ages here . we are in the process of reinstating the highway men they will take all your money and jewellery at the borders . 
we have had a concensous that holiday makers are nothing but a pain in the butt. 
they have been known to come down here pay over the top for houses that locals can only just afford .then leave them empty for the biggest part o#f the year . 
some steal our women and corrupt them with their upcountry ways . even some come down and work down here stealing our jobs . 
there as been great influxes of overspill from other parts of the country . 
these should be sent back never to return . 
i hope you find this satisfies your demands , dont bother to come down here we are much better off with out you . 
yours cornwall .



we do have to laugh really . have fun .hee hee . i,m off soon its too cold and wet here in winter . bye .


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 12, 2013)

Seannachie said:


> Interesting link but I noticed some inconsistencies in their avowed policy as their official web-page states, inter alia:
> 
> 1. The article starts thus: "_As a Council we want to support local businesses and encourage visitors to use the many high quality motorhome and camp sites throughout Cornwall._"
> 
> ...


_

this is a great post and i agree with all ecept the last bit,, ur preety clued up but not street wise the fact that its just better to stay away that park and fight if ou had a fine via the courst show that the councils website has served it purpose to put you off. hence my early point about what would happen if they had signs statig that children under the age of 18 are just devis from eveil and are not aloowerd would be confront the council on this or just stay away , in fact i think the council are breaking a law as per the human rights act and equal oprtuies act. lets have a sign and the entrance at council lesuire centres stating no fat ppl as the take too much room up and could and smell, where does it end the council need to correct this web page if i went to cornwall i would ignore such signs and go to court if needed and if my council did the same and it was brought to my attention i would submit an council complaint and then if not upheld an lgo complaint._


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## maureenandtom (Oct 12, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> this is a great post and i agree with all ecept the last bit,, ur preety clued up but not street wise the fact that its just better to stay away that park and fight if ou had a fine via the courst show that the councils website has served it purpose to put you off. hence my early point about what would happen if they had signs statig that children under the age of 18 are just devis from eveil and are not aloowerd would be confront the council on this or just stay away , in fact i think the council are breaking a law as per the human rights act and equal oprtuies act. lets have a sign and the entrance at council lesuire centres stating no fat ppl as the take too much room up and could and smell, where does it end the council need to correct this web page if i went to cornwall i would ignore such signs and go to court if needed and if my council did the same and it was brought to my attention i would submit an council complaint and then if not upheld an lgo complaint.



So do I


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## Aladdinsane (Oct 12, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> So do I



How can a council impose restrictions due to complaints but NOT have a record of these alleged complaints?


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## Talbot (Oct 12, 2013)

That is a good point you make. However what do you all make of this interesting point she appears to have made as follows: _‘I would add that it is difficult to enforce a no sleeping/camping or no eating/cooking ban’_ 

Is she declaring that no council could successfully enforce a 'no overnight sleeping ban' in a council owned car park?


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## Seannachie (Oct 12, 2013)

landyrubbertramp said:


> this is a great post and i agree with all ecept the last bit,, ur preety clued up but not street wise the fact that its just better to stay away that park and fight if ou had a fine via the courst show that the councils website has served it purpose to put you off. hence my early point about what would happen if they had signs statig that children under the age of 18 are just devis from eveil and are not aloowerd would be confront the council on this or just stay away , in fact i think the council are breaking a law as per the human rights act and equal oprtuies act. lets have a sign and the entrance at council lesuire centres stating no fat ppl as the take too much room up and could and smell, where does it end the council need to correct this web page if i went to cornwall i would ignore such signs and go to court if needed and if my council did the same and it was brought to my attention i would submit an council complaint and then if not upheld an lgo complaint.



Good for you being willing to go to court and fight but be prepared for lots of aggravation, worry and cost.  

I once spent many months of my precious time and lots of money fighting Cornwall Council over the legal interpretation and application of planning law even though the Council knew they did not have a case which stood up in law and despite the fact that they knew from the beginning that finally they would have to concede that fact and admit defeat. I won in the end, as I knew I would, but at considerable cost in terms of time, money and effort. Fortunately, I was able to argue my own case legally and hold my own against their top legal brains but it would have cost a small fortune if I had been required to employ a solicitor to act on my behalf. I wish you luck in taking them on, but I will simply take my money elsewhere where it is more welcome.


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## maureenandtom (Oct 12, 2013)

Talbot said:


> That is a good point you make. However what do you all make of this interesting point she appears to have made as follows: _‘I would add that it is difficult to enforce a no sleeping/camping or no eating/cooking ban’_
> 
> Is she declaring that no council could successfully enforce a 'no overnight sleeping ban' in a council owned car park?



No they can't -not successfully.   What's overnight?  Prove I was sleeping?   Eating?  In my car?  Why not?

We hear this same thing from councils time and again.  The most recent was North Berwick who attempted to enact a bye-law for this reason - they couldn't enforce their existing ban.   Their bye-law needed approval from the Scottish Government who refused approval and the bye-law did not come into effect.  What councils then do is to say that they're responding to many complaints from the public.  So far, no council I have contacted has been able to come up with records of any complaints, prosecutions ro convictions. 






The point is that councils will get away with whatever they are allowed to get away with.   Too many of us allow councils to get away with their nonsense.


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## Llanito (Oct 12, 2013)

oldish hippy said:


> Think it shoulkd be sent out to a few councils and maybe they will see the error of their way  idoubt it at all
> just answer me one query as regard aires and the german sites please are thier still caravan parks /motorhome park in vicinity of them as i would have thought that owners would be up in arms or do they co exist along side them by offering better faciltys



Yes there are,I have been parked in an aire just opposite the caravan site,in the aire free caravan park payant in french
:mad1:


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## maureenandtom (Oct 12, 2013)

[No message]


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## vwalan (Oct 12, 2013)

david , i have been to meetings i have shown and mentioned the 08v-74 instructions . they are in the hands of the caming sites etc . unfortunately at county council level the public cant always get into meetings . plus i was the only one there at any time being against banning us . i certainly wasnt there in november . christ its cold in cornwall then .


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 13, 2013)

Ihi sea attic I know all too well the hassle as I stood up for a local issue in a council park in my city the council tried to scare me by threading to take me to court if I did not stop so I called their bluff and went to court and the council lost but as u say it would have cost me 5 k if I lost and all the worry but would u do it again ... Absolutely ppl died for this country to defend justice so my worry us next to nothing . The worrying bit is this tine it's the axis if eveil is my own council


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## Talbot (Oct 13, 2013)

*No overnigh parking signs in car parks*

Am I reading this article correctly, it appears to read that councils up and down the country are acknowledging that these 'no overnight sleeping' signs that are popping up in car parks and streets are not actually enforceable? I should have gone to specsavers!!


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## Debroos (Oct 14, 2013)

Does the council have a list of these campsites that charge a tenner a night?
 I've never seen one! I can't find the email address I used when complaining about all this but if anyone has the right email address at CCC I'll ask them....
and thanks for all that info and hard work Maureen and Tom....


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## maureenandtom (Oct 14, 2013)

Thank you. Debroos. This should do you:

parking@cornwall.gov.uk <parking@cornwall.gov.uk>

Talbot,   Yes.  That seems to be the case.  Reasons given in North Yorks, East Lothian, Cornwal, and probably more too that I can't think of right now, have all said in public documents that one of their reasons for introducing no overnight parking orders is that they find difficulty in enforcing bans of overnight sleeping so they introduce no overnight parking.  Cornwall, above, says,

_"however this restriction is difficult to enforce because of the issues of proving that those activities are taking place (eg, does a motorhome with the curtains closed contain people sleeping or is it just parked)."_

Unless they define "overnight" then they will have difficulty in proving that too - which explains why they now use accurate times - like no parking from 11 pm to 7 am or something of the sort.


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## landyrubbertramp (Oct 16, 2013)

Hi all a quick update

just been on the phone to the legal team at cornwall council spoke to a Simon re this comment on the website link Talbot put up

*A motorhome is defined as any vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a mobile place of sleeping – ranging from a custom-built motorhome to an estate car with a mattress in the back.

made him aware of the definition from dvla a long list of requirements to have your vehcile changed on the v5 and told him i was disappointed in their definition , i asked him re the above, he told me that thier definition is regards overnight sleeping and parking and the road traffic act, i said thats all well and good but what the conection with the m home after all you can be in car and be asleep with no matteres is that not overnight sleeping. why is the matress relevant.

i dont know enough abot the tro.s and road traffic act all i know is its poor at best which i told him to try to reclassify a vehicle i asked him to re word it by at least sating that even if he is right about the road traffic act why not re word it sum thing like this . 

"regardless of the fact its a m home as per dvla or not as per the log book the council consider a vehicle with a mattress in the back to be a motorhome under the road traffic act etc etc etc "

as i say i dont know enough about the rt act but i know what dvla would say if you took a pic and asked for an estate car to be changed on v5.

Hes got my e-mail and is going to speak to legal and e-mail me before i make a decision t make a formal complaint

thoughts welcome

kinds regards


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## maingate (Oct 16, 2013)

Ask them to show you the Law that makes overnight sleeping in a vehicle illegal. If they allow overnight parking then they cannot stop you remaining in a vehicle that is road legal.

They can stop you parking by means of double yellows and height barriers but they need to follow the rules in order to do that.


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## witzend (Oct 16, 2013)

Do Councillors have to declare a interest when voting would be interesting to see who declared.
Its all irrelevant really as they that didn't vote would still have influenced the others


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## slowpace (Oct 18, 2013)

*parking in weymouth*

this is what weymouth is doing

 Free overnight parking in Weymouth to start on November 1
.2:12pm Thursday 17th October 2013 in News .


Free overnight parking in Weymouth and Portland to start on November 1 MOTORISTS will soon be able to park for free at night in most car parks in Weymouth and Portland. 

The decision was agreed by councillors in the summer and comes as part of a parking overhaul in the borough. 

Free overnight parking will help to boost the economy, the council says. 

From November 1, people can park for free in most council-run pay and display car parks everyday from 6pm until 9.30am. 

Car parks on Portland at Castletown, Chesil and Portland Bill, which are operated but not owned by the borough council, are not included in the chang


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## Talbot (Oct 18, 2013)

slowpace said:


> this is what weymouth is doing
> 
> Free overnight parking in Weymouth to start on November 1
> .2:12pm Thursday 17th October 2013 in News .
> ...




This is great news. Someone should write to them and praise them for their forward thinking. It's great to see that they're prepared to think outside the box. Maybe more councils will wake up to the fact that the motorhome community is a good source to tap into and welcome us to their boroughs.


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## Bigpeetee (Oct 18, 2013)

Can members residing in Cornwall make complaints as follows:

Picnic'rs, leaving rubbish, making noise, smoke pollution (the emission of smoke particles and CO, CO2 must contravene the councils green policies). There are after all plenty of official food outlets that are being deprived of an income by these free loaders. The upkeep of these areas including picnic benches must provide a drain on public resources

The use of cycle ways and footpaths, why allow people to have free access to these facilities when there's a perfectly good sports centre, where you can pay for the privilege.

Paddling pools, create a great deal of noise pollution.

The provision of Parks, botanical gardens etc when there's a plethora of venues that will charge you for the privilege, ie. The Eden Project, National Trust

In fact, wherever the council provide something for free, there's bound to be a local business loosing out, so stop it all.

Yet free suddenly stops at a certain time of night for motorhomes. OK, let the picnicers use the benches free between 11.30pm & 8.00am


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## Canalsman (Oct 18, 2013)

slowpace said:


> this is what weymouth is doing
> 
> Free overnight parking in Weymouth to start on November 1
> .2:12pm Thursday 17th October 2013 in News .
> ...



However it doesn't say you can park overnight in a motorhome ...


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## Aladdinsane (Oct 18, 2013)

POI Admin said:


> However it doesn't say you can park overnight in a motorhome ...



As a motorcaravan owner I would describe myself as a motorist?


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## Debroos (Oct 18, 2013)

This is the reply I received from CCC when asking about £10 campsites and other parking stuff.....

"Good afternoon,

Firstly I, personally, have not seen any of your pervious emails so I can only apologise if they have not been answered to you satisfaction.

The first point I would like to clarify is that using a vehicle to sleep within a car park has been prohibited for many years and has previous had to be enforced through prosecution in the courts, with fines being levied by them, the recent change to banning certain types of vehicle overnight is simply a change of enforcement mechanism, under the new rulings a Penalty Charge Notice can now be issued ‘on the spot’. There has also been a lot of confusion and misinterpretation of exactly what has been banned in car parks overnight the Off Street Parking Places Order, which outlines the rules for car parks, defines what is considered to be a motorhome/campervan and this is defined as being any vehicle constructed or adapted for use as a mobile place of sleeping – ranging from a custom-built motorhome through to an estate car with a mattress in the back.

You make reference to a report that you have read, based upon the page number and paragraph you quote I assume it is the attached document? If so then I would like to clarify that this is not a formal report that was presented to Councillors, but a document to explain how the decision to ban motorhomes was made, the document also includes information about the complaints. This document also states that the £10 a night campsite fee was a comment made by Councillors, not by officers.

The current regulations were brought in following a statutory public consultation, this consultation attracted 7 responses in relation to the over night ban, of this 5 were opposed to the proposals, and 2 were in support. Incidentally the 2 supporters also requested that the ban was countywide rather in a select few car parks.

Finally in relation to the situation in Scotland, the situation here differs to that in Cornwall, firstly the issues in Scotland related to the highway and not off street car parks; secondly in Scotland there was no legal backing to the overnight parking ban, in Cornwall the Off Street Parking Order gives us this legal backing; and thirdly the signs used in Scotland were not authorised by the Secretary of State for use on the highway, as the overnight ban in Cornwall is for off street car parks then the sign authorisation does not apply.


I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

Regards,

Simon Clark

Parking Programme Co-ordinator, Transportation,  Cornwall Council"

Presumably this means a consultation of 2 out of seven is enough for them to make a decision!


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## ricc (Oct 18, 2013)

certainly clarifies how much notice the council takes of public consultation.... approx 70% opposed so they pass it anyway.


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## maureenandtom (Nov 11, 2013)

I thought I might try a visual approach to the council:


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## witzend (Nov 11, 2013)

Why bother with the UK when you can have free stop overs in Europe I know there's the ferry price but that's about the same as a weeks site fees. So if you've only 2 weeks you'll still break even and you don't have to far to go to get better weather. And if you've more time to spare your quids in


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## Deleted member 24143 (Nov 11, 2013)

maureenandtom you should send your map and post to Cornwall and Devon council and see what response you get.


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## Talbot (Nov 11, 2013)

maureenandtom said:


> I thought I might try a visual approach to the council:



This speaks volumes. As they say, "Pictures Paint A Thousand Words". I love it!!


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