# Warning about A-Frame towing



## Deleted member 967

Warning about A-Frame towing posted on MHFun forum
 Ensure you regularly check the frame mountings on your car and that the car is not suffering with any distortion or metal fatigue.

Report 1...
 Ford Ka  8 or 9 years old - a part of the "chassis" on the near side has broken allowing the a-frame to twist and pull the front of the car forward. ... Both front wings have popped out & forward by a couple of inches.  it had a strong sub frame bolted to the car chassis.  The vehicle had to abandoned while on tour in Scotland to be returned by the breakdown service.
 The car was MOT'd last month and is in excellent condition otherwise with absolutely no rust and very low mileage. 
 The poster in the past had been an avid a-frame user but has always considered they should be subjected to annual testing along with the MOT.
 The poster said, If the car is repairable, which he doubts, he will not continue towing it or any other.  
 The A-Frame was attached to a solid bar which is in turn fixed to strong steel plates bolted to the "chassis" ..... All very strong but possibly maybe too strong, putting a load of stress on the car. 

Report 2.
 Another user posted on the same thread regarding a 5door hatchback fitted with a new A frame and only a couple of years old.
 The whole front end was loose where the chassis had snapped, luckily it all got noticed before the front of the car was pulled off..

The law for tow bars has been strict for many years that you can only bolt to reinforced points on the car designed for the purpose. a frames are bolted through thin pressed steel at the front of the chassis. in no way are cars designed for this or it would have to be type approved and crash tested etc.
 Another reason that a frames are not legal, but rely on grey areas of the law. 

Check them all regularly.  Maybe the Spanish and Germans are right after all.


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## Deleted member 967

This is an urgent safety issue that should be pinned for all to see.


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## Jimhunterj4

Great wee article John I enjoyed that read cheers


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## 1 Cup

*chassis*

They are not chassis they are molded with strengthen box bits 
should have taken the hand brake off :danger:  tow car


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## harrow

John Thompson said:


> Warning about A-Frame towing posted on MHFun forum
> Ensure you regularly check the frame mountings on your car and that the car is not suffering with any distortion or metal fatigue.
> 
> Report 1...
> Ford Ka  8 or 9 years old - a part of the "chassis" on the near side has broken allowing the a-frame to twist and pull the front of the car forward. ... Both front wings have popped out & forward by a couple of inches.  it had a strong sub frame bolted to the car chassis.  The vehicle had to abandoned while on tour in Scotland to be returned by the breakdown service.
> The car was MOT'd last month and is in excellent condition otherwise with absolutely no rust and very low mileage.
> The poster in the past had been an avid a-frame user but has always considered they should be subjected to annual testing along with the MOT.
> The poster said, If the car is repairable, which he doubts, he will not continue towing it or any other.
> The A-Frame was attached to a solid bar which is in turn fixed to strong steel plates bolted to the "chassis" ..... All very strong but possibly maybe too strong, putting a load of stress on the car.
> 
> Report 2.
> Another user posted on the same thread regarding a 5door hatchback fitted with a new A frame and only a couple of years old.
> The whole front end was loose where the chassis had snapped, luckily it all got noticed before the front of the car was pulled off..
> 
> The law for tow bars has been strict for many years that you can only bolt to reinforced points on the car designed for the purpose. a frames are bolted through thin pressed steel at the front of the chassis. in no way are cars designed for this or it would have to be type approved and crash tested etc.
> Another reason that a frames are not legal, but rely on grey areas of the law.
> 
> Check them all regularly.  Maybe the Spanish and Germans are right after all.



I had an accident when I was driving a Ford KA.
A builders lorry slipped past and in passing caught the rear edge of the front wing.
The lorry took the KA wing off like it was held on with blu tack.
As the lorry went forward the KA wing was hanging from the lorry like cooking foil.
The little KA is a death trap, every spot weld came/popped  apart the metal did not tear, maybe it was glued together with super glue, the KA was a car I had from new, so it had a know history.


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## Deleted member 967

There is a further report from Tony in Taunton.

"My Peugeot 207 was a complete right off after the cross bar that attaches between the main fixing to chassis on the car that was fitted by Car-A-Tow system snapped while towing in the south of France on the Motorway."

It seems like there is problem.


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## Deleted member 967

*Reply from VOSA*

Reply from VOSA
 Before I deal with your concern, it maybe helpful if I explain the role of
 DVSA in regards to investigating vehicle safety defects. DVSA
 investigates, in conjunction with the relevant producer, incidences whereby
 failure of a vehicle or its component systems are alleged to be
 attributable to design or construction deficiencies. In addition DVSA is
 responsible for the supervision and monitoring of the UK Recall Scheme as
 it applies in the automotive sector.

 This work is carried out under the terms of a Code of Practice, which is an
 agreement between the Department for Transport and the Trade Associations
 representing vehicle and component producers, and is supported by the
 General Product Safety Regulations 2005.

 A ‘safety defect’ is defined in the Code as "A safety related defect is a
 failure due to design and/or construction, which is likely to affect the
 safe operation of the product without prior warning to the user and may
 pose a significant risk to the driver, occupants and others. This defect
 will be common to a number of products that have been sold for use in the
 United Kingdom". In addition, before we can require a manufacturer/producer
 to instigate a safety recall, there has to be a significant risk of serious
 injury or death.

 The issues you have supplied are the type of concerns we investigate.
 However, without these concerns being reported to us, we would not know
 about them. We do search the internet for reports of safety issues or
 possible safety recalls that have not been reported to us and conduct carry
 out surveillance role but I am afraid that we would not have found these,
 as we do have difficulty in entering web forums, because they are either
 only available to members or our IT security systems will not allow us to
 enter them.

 However, can I request that you pass the attached documents and defect
 reporting form onto the people who have suffered these issues, so that they
 can report them to use, as we will need specific information and contact
 details.

 Should you wish to discuss anything, please do not hesitate to contact me
 on telephone number below.

 Andrew Tudor
 Acting Head of Vehicle Safety Branch
 Vehicle Safety Branch | Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | First Floor |
 Berkeley House | Croydon Street | Bristol | BS5 ODA
 Phone: 01179-543300 

I am having problems loading the attached files.  The Report form is to big to load to this forum.
I am happy to forward the email to anyone who wants a copy with the attached files and report form.  Please PM me with an email address.


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## colinm

Donna on OAL reported seeing a toad with half the front ripped out.
p.s. just checked and it was near Swansea, and was a Hymer towing a Toyota.


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## colinm

Sparks said:


> This sort of occurrence is probably to be expected when the towing equipment is attached to the part of the car that is MEANT to break up/off in accidents.
> Perhaps the A frame should be attached to the part of the car that is designed to take these loads i.e. the tow bar mountings. Yes it means the car car would have to travel backwards (no great disadvantage) and yes, most small cars are not designed to have tow bars fitted which would limit choice.



That doesn't work for several reasons, and might also damage towing vehicle.


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## molly 2

Sparks said:


> This sort of occurrence is probably to be expected when the towing equipment is attached to the part of the car that is MEANT to break up/off in accidents.
> Perhaps the A frame should be attached to the part of the car that is designed to take these loads i.e. the tow bar mountings. Yes it means the car car would have to travel backwards (no great disadvantage) and yes, most small cars are not designed to have tow bars fitted which would limit choice.


 All modern cars are built with front end crumple zones designed to absorb the impact on a front end smash, fastening a tow bar to those weak points is the opposite to design of crumple zones. Some cars may be strong enough to take the strain, some won't I would recommend regular checking of the fixing points looking for body distortion and for cracking and any signs of metal fatigue. Also check the gaps between the the wings and bonnet are not distorted also check the bonnet opens and  shuts properly looking for any front end misalignment.


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## colinm

Sparks said:


> Please explain



An A frame combo works by having steering, this is achieved by have sideways forces applied to the front axle, the steering reacts by turning. This will not happen, or worse still work in reverse if towed backwards.


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## colinm

Sparks said:


> I never knew that. So it wouldn't work like a four wheel trailer then?



No the axles are much too far apart, even a conventional two axle trailer with axles close together places much more load on the tow hitch than a single axle.


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## Tezza33

Sparks said:


> I never knew that. So it wouldn't work like a four wheel trailer then?


If you look at farm trailers the front axle/wheels are part of the A frame so turn with that.
I am pleased I made my own A frame at least I know it is safe:sleep-040:


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## grandadbaza

The system I have  on my Citreon C1   was fitted by TowBars2TowCars  of Grimsby and they offer a  bi-annual  check  on their systems ,and after speaking to them today  like mine they have not had any failures of any kind . I just feel that bit safer having it checked  at regular intervals .


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## grandadbaza

Sorry thats my spelling for you  it should have said  biennial  :hammer: which is of course every 2 years


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## mistericeman

the situation is probably not helped by the amounts of shock loading applied under even normal towing conditions... 
manufacturers spend many hours and heaps, of money designing and then testing to destruction their vehicles structures... however I'm pretty certain after market A frames don't even cross their minds. 

I've never liked the idea of a frames other than for emergency useage.


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## witzend

tezza33 said:


> If you look at farm trailers the front axle/wheels are part of the A frame so turn with that.
> I am pleased I made my own A frame at least I know it is safe:sleep-040:



But possibly not Legal as not type approved marking CE marks


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## QFour

Wonder what the manufacturers would say if they told them what they were doing. How can you asses what is going on in a monocoque construction if all you do is look for what you think is a strong bit and weld / bolt chunks of metal to it. I found a YouTube video of one being fitted. One side was ( Ok ) because they were using the towing eye but they had to construct another towing eye support for the other side. Lot of strain on this part of the vehicle and forcing the vehicle to turn by pulling it must also put a tremendous strain on all the front body panels. With more and more MH's being purchased more and more are going to want to tow a vehicle. They will all be looking for the cheapest solution as they have just blown all their cash on the main part.

Someone on the Caravan and Motorhome Club Forum wanted to know the etiquettes for arriving on site towing a car :lol-061: :lol-053:

Hate to think how much type approval would cost. Can you imaging fastening a car to the back of a MH and driving it into a concrete block at 50 mph to see what happens. That would certainly test the A Frame. If it failed you would be in a really bad place. 

..


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## jeffmossy

QFour said:


> Wonder what the manufacturers would say if they told them what they were doing. How can you asses what is going on in a monocoque construction if all you do is look for what you think is a strong bit and weld / bolt chunks of metal to it. I found a YouTube video of one being fitted. One side was ( Ok ) because they were using the towing eye but they had to construct another towing eye support for the other side. Lot of strain on this part of the vehicle and forcing the vehicle to turn by pulling it must also put a tremendous strain on all the front body panels. With more and more MH's being purchased more and more are going to want to tow a vehicle. They will all be looking for the cheapest solution as they have just blown all their cash on the main part.
> 
> Someone on the Caravan and Motorhome Club Forum wanted to know the etiquettes for arriving on site towing a car :lol-061: :lol-053:
> 
> Hate to think how much type approval would cost. Can you imaging fastening a car to the back of a MH and driving it into a concrete block at 50 mph to see what happens. That would certainly test the A Frame. If it failed you would be in a really bad place.
> 
> ..




Easy answer to the problem .............. IF YOU WANT TO TOW GET A CARAVAN


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## IanH

Sorry, and Hard Hat now on, but I'll go for it anyway............................

If you have a Motorhome, you have a car and a caravan, all in one, in many guises

If you need to tow, in any way shape or form, a CAR behind it, then you have a reversed image CARAVAN

So why not simplify things, a lot actually and simply buy a CAR and tow a CARAVAN behind it, thereby having...........Only one vehicle , a means of transport once at your destination................... a much bigger living space than even quite big motorhomes.................

I really cannot see any possible reason to tow a car behind a motorhome..............BUT, as I said, Hard Hat now on!!!:mad2:


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## Wooie1958

I presume you`ve resurrected a 17 month old thread just so you can start arguments and trouble again


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## installer

*If you want to tow a car get a car trailer........*

Simples  About Our Trailers - Smart-Trailers for ALL small Cars


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## Les Haro

John Thompson said:


> Warning about A-Frame towing posted on MHFun forum
> Ensure you regularly check the frame mountings on your car and that the car is not suffering with any distortion or metal fatigue.
> 
> Report 1...
> Ford Ka  8 or 9 years old - a part of the "chassis" on the near side has broken allowing the a-frame to twist and pull the front of the car forward. ... Both front wings have popped out & forward by a couple of inches.  it had a strong sub frame bolted to the car chassis.  The vehicle had to abandoned while on tour in Scotland to be returned by the breakdown service.
> The car was MOT'd last month and is in excellent condition otherwise with absolutely no rust and very low mileage.
> The poster in the past had been an avid a-frame user but has always considered they should be subjected to annual testing along with the MOT.
> The poster said, If the car is repairable, which he doubts, he will not continue towing it or any other.
> The A-Frame was attached to a solid bar which is in turn fixed to strong steel plates bolted to the "chassis" ..... All very strong but possibly maybe too strong, putting a load of stress on the car.
> 
> Report 2.
> Another user posted on the same thread regarding a 5door hatchback fitted with a new A frame and only a couple of years old.
> The whole front end was loose where the chassis had snapped, luckily it all got noticed before the front of the car was pulled off..
> 
> The law for tow bars has been strict for many years that you can only bolt to reinforced points on the car designed for the purpose. a frames are bolted through thin pressed steel at the front of the chassis. in no way are cars designed for this or it would have to be type approved and crash tested etc.
> Another reason that a frames are not legal, but rely on grey areas of the law.
> 
> Check them all regularly.  Maybe the Spanish and Germans are right after all.


 Wouldn't a dolly sort it all out?


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## trevskoda

First thing first,the first post says fit to car chassis,there has been no chassis on cars since the day of the herald or spitfire,apart from some 4/4 or trucks they went out with nelsons eye.


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## Tezza33

Les Haro said:


> Wouldn't a dolly sort it all out?


A dolly would be classed no different than an A frame in Europe, probably worse because they are not braked and a dolly is impossible to reverse, an A frame is just difficult but possible with care and practice


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## colinm

Les Haro said:


> Wouldn't a dolly sort it all out?



From .gov



> Dollies
> The use of dollies is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from “A” to “B”. Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement.
> When used for recovering broken down vehicles dollies are exempt from having an operational braking system fitted, provided that the towing vehicle is capable of meeting the minimum prescribed braking requirements for the combination. However, if dollies are used for the transportation of perfectly functioning vehicles they will need to be fitted with an operational braking system. Additionally the brakes on the wheels of the towed car which are in contact with the road must work and meet the specified 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer.
> The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven - this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.


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## gordy

*A Frame Towing.*

Why am I about to tow a car behind a motorhome this year. Cos myself and the wife (67&65) have no strength to push a caravan about whether having caravan-mover or not. Also wife hated the box up our ar*e, shaking and waving when we towed a caravan many moons ago. (but, but, but, doesn't count). So far the towed/towing car we got has been used since our main bigger one failed the MOT. 
Per the talk through this thread a dolly has no brakes so only used by emergency vehicles.
Standard A frame mounted to suspension lower arms is also illegal as has no brakes and emergency vehicles only.
As too the brackets being pulled from the front of some cars yes it is possible and can be averted.
A frame is coupled to the emergency towing eye bracket behind the bumper after adding another threaded mount. Car Manufacturer has designed and passed off the towing eye mount so why not another. Now as far as I can see there is a flaw in some setups, whether using mixed parts a possibility. The towing eyes stick out from the body under the bumper and note should not be jerked apart or jerked together so the fitting of the A bar is crucial. Hence any slack on the hinge bar should be taken up with washers or spacers. A spacer tube should I would say be fitted between each towing eye to stop eyes coming closer and A bar washered/shimmed before securing it on.
Mind you my friend uses a standard A bar set up for pulling cheap cars home for himself to fix and resell. He's been stopped by the police yes, they look around the set up and ask if its got a road tax. Taxed yes and off they go. 
As too brakes the tow cars have all to work of course, whether by overrun coupling with pull wire onto brake pedal, or electronically via box onto brake pedal. Electronically is a simple system to see but at about £1500, using momentum and slowing of the car it works the brake pedal. Think this has a built in Vacuum pump. All Likened to mobile phone action if you think about it. 
I've heard that the ignition should be on and engine running to operate the vac assistance of brakes but over run is a jerky procedure and car would be skittering along on the slightest slowing down. 
I've still to work out the connecting of rear lights of towcar without using a lighting board. Plug connects under bonnet from Motorhome. Mmmmm see fitting company on that one...Anything else ??


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## Tezza33

hairydog said:


> Why do people need to take a car with them at all? Seems particularly unsuitable if you are wildcamping.


Because we are not *always* wildcamping, I have a disability, I also have a disabled dog so need sometimes to find places suitable for him to walk with his wheels 



We sometimes stay on a CL/CS site for long periods and a car gives us the opportunity to go further afield to see places that are difficult to visit with a motorhome, it is also a trailer to carry extra weight.

We don't all have the same needs or ideas


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## TeamRienza

*D. O. T. Update on A frames*

This update has recently been published by Dept for transport on the 10th May 2018. It appears to give a little more clarity on the subject, though not the stamp of legal approval that would settle the discussions which periodically pop up.

A-frames - GOV.UK

Davy


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## Tezza33

TeamRienza said:


> This update has recently been published by Dept for transport on the 10th May 2018. It appears to give a little more clarity on the subject, though not the stamp of legal approval that would settle the discussions which periodically pop up.
> 
> A-frames - GOV.UK
> 
> Davy


I was following this with interest especially after they took the original legislation offline, I was pleased when they posted the new regulations and I am still confident to tow my car but we need someone to be prosecuted, then appeal and the powers that be overturn the decision so we have a definitive answer


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## Byronic

Wonderful choice of words, 'we would not recommend the use of
A Frames outside the UK.'

Neither are they saying they recommend the use of A Frames within
the UK though. So might as well lump in with the first statement.

In reality just the status quo, it still needs someone to be prosecuted
to create the legal precedent, the risk remains (however small) that it 
may go against them.


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## Wully

I’ve been thinking about this for a long time tow or not but in the end I fitted a towbar and bought a wee fiat 500 with a frame already  fitted now I won’t use this every time I go away or use the van  probably very rare usage  but I’ve now got the option it’s there if I think I need its just handy.keep hearing the nonsense you should have a caravan and car if you want to tow what a load of Shiite can you take you’re caravan away without the car no but you can take you’re mh away without you’re tow car and use so more options the legal side is different if I was told that it was illegal then wouldn’t.


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## Byronic

A Fiat 500 can be stuck on the back of a van with Velcro pads.


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## Wully

Chainsaw Charlie said:


> You're a tugger at heart :scared::scared:
> There are people that can help , go on you know what to do .
> I bet you've got an aquaroll and a wastemaster too :scared::scared:



You got it Charlie best of both worlds a big F off caravan stuck tae the back of mh then I’ll get my money’s worth out of the caravan and motorhome club membership stick a towbar on the wee fiat and buy one of them Ebro pop up roof things.


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## GWAYGWAY

Just to add my little bit  I need to know What smart car gearbox , CAN be towed without self destructing, I asked another site but got no replies but there is bound to be one on here that knows when they changed  from the older gearbox to the dual clutch one that is engaged all the time.  I want one for my daughter to go to work and  still be able to pull it when I want it  to go away.


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## Deleted member 967

GWAYGWAY said:


> Just to add my little bit  I need to know What smart car gearbox , CAN be towed without self destructing, I asked another site but got no replies but there is bound to be one on here that knows when they changed  from the older gearbox to the dual clutch one that is engaged all the time.  I want one for my daughter to go to work and  still be able to pull it when I want it  to go away.



You may be better asking at thesmartclub - FORUM  or Smartz Smart Car Forum

I had one of the first grey import Smarts.  I trailered that, as a friend had destroyed his by towing and it not being properly in neutral.  He hadn't changed gears with the brake depressed, just moved the stick.

Hope that helps


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## kenspain

*And remember*

You can not use an A-Frame in Spain .:wave::wave:


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## GWAYGWAY

One of the stress parts of an A frame  is the cross piece between the eyes  that makes it into an A, a lot of these so called bars do not have this crosspiece and therefore the push and pull of the bar when cornering put the forces directly to the vehicle in an alternating way so the chassis member of the car is pulled one side or  the other and that double the pulling force on that side, in tension.   It is imperative that there is a cross piece as close to the eyepoints as is possible, there is also an inward force on the subframe parts when the van pulls the 'V'   frame . Just  a point that I thought might be fixable  at home with a  bar and a couple of bolts to make the 'A'  from the 'V' to stop these forces causing stresses, the car designers never thought of when doing the calculations.


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## Deleted member 34288

John Thompson said:


> *Reply from VOSA*
> I am having problems loading the attached files.  The Report form is to big to load to this forum.
> I am happy to forward the email to anyone who wants a copy with the attached files and report form.  Please PM me with an email address.



Just right click on the file, and save to your PC/Device....


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## trevskoda

I has a home made a frame when i was working on old sodas,later found they are not now legal as over 750 weight and must have brakes with stop lights on rear car,also a sign stating car on tow,it used to be no towing on sundays in ireland,dont know if this still holds.


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## molly 2

Cant see anything wrong  towing a car  if it is on a braked  trailer. Note this is a 2015 thread


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## Rus0906

Unfortunately this is a Ford car issue on mots a frame or not they still have a issue with front surface mount areas corrosion we weld loads of them but the majority of them are tow cars because the rest are not worth the price if welding


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## TonyEmm

Towing a car on a braked trailer is definitely the safe way to do it, legally at least!

regarding being a 2015 thread though, is there a cut off date for replying?  Surely if the thread is still open, it’s fair game!  The topic is still relevant!


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## wildebus

TonyEmm said:


> Towing a car on a braked trailer is definitely the safe way to do it, legally at least!
> 
> regarding being a 2015 thread though, is there a cut off date for replying?  Surely if the thread is still open, it’s fair game!  The topic is still relevant!


I would say very relevant  (although any regulations quoted either permitting or denying something could well have been changed since of course  )


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## Wully

What’s a car ?   Someone reading this thread 2050


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## gasgas

Fords were never in any way strong. In the 1970s I went to a scrap yard looking for a part, and saw a Ford with rear end damage and the driver's seat was flattened horizontally. I asked the scrap yard owner what was going on there and he said it had been in a fairly moderate rear end shunt and with all the small Fords, the driver's seat collapses. The driver of that car was now in a wheelchair. Also I now have a friend who had a small one, I don't know if it was a Ka or Fiesta but she had a similar event resulting in her getting £3000 compensation but it has ruined the rest of her life, she can hardly walk and is in constant pain. Small Fords are not worth the ink their brochures are printed with. I used to run a little garage, and I will never own a Ford car. I do however have a Transit based motorhome because Transits are built to a higher quality than the cars.


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## gasgas

In any case, why on earth tow a car behind a motorhome in the first place, even if the mechanics were viable? If you want a car once you are on a camp site then why not save many bucketfulls of pounds, and just go somewhere local and hire one?


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## TonyEmm

Apologies to those who think old threads shouldn’t be resurrected but this is important information.​Warning!!​Updated: Nov 28, 2021


Product Safety information for a-frame users.

.

 Following recent events, including threats to personal safety, I have redacted the company’s information from the above post. any comments mentioning them have also been deleted. No campaign is worth putting the world of myself and my family at risk. In the event anything untoward does occur, there are people out there who know the perpetrator including Lincolnshire Police.



Following a recent catastrophic failure of an a-frame towed car I have, this week, (17.11.21) formally called upon Trading Standards and the Vehicle Safety Branch (VSB) of the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) to implement a PRODUCT RECALL on specific a-frame installations.

The towed car suffered a sudden and unpredictable failure of the a-frame to car interface.  Regardless of the cause of the initial failure, 












    CRUCIALLY, it should have had an emergency breakaway system installed in accordance with the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations 1986 [and amendments] and COMMISSION DIRECTIVE 98/12/EC.

The object of the emergency breakaway system is to stop the ‘trailer’ in it’s tracks and prevent the ‘trailer’ literally breaking away and going wherever, in this case mounting a pavement and scattering pedestrians.   

























As the company have ignored my request for more information, The number of vehicles affected is currently unknown but if your vehicle is one, a simple visual inspection will identify it. 

Do NOT rely on any written statements like “Automatically sets itself up” or “Break-away safety features built in”.  Without the ring highlighted, it has no emergency braking in place!

The product is from a company known as [redacted]. Their standard practice would be to install the emergency breakaway facility, identifiable by a ring ‘mini-cable-tied’ to the vehicles front grill, adjacent to the 13 pin electrical socket.  























The ring is for the attachment of a supplied, breakaway cable. SEE PHOTO.

if your vehicle was converted by this company and is lacking the ring, it is ESSENTIAL that your car is drawn to their attention with a view to being modified.  The company can be contacted at [redacted].



Failure to act is putting LIVES AT RISK!






						Home | Tony's Towing Trivia
					

Campaigning for towing & trailer safety over many years, Tony’s Towing Trivia is a blog concentrating on CatO2 Trailers, and Towing a-frames as used by Motorhome owners for their ‘TOADS’. Safety, including minus standards, is paramount but, legality, both at home and abroad, is also vital..




					spinner28.wixsite.com


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## mistericeman

TonyEmm said:


> Apologies to those who think old threads shouldn’t be resurrected but this is important information.​Warning!!​Updated: Nov 28, 2021
> 
> 
> Product Safety information for a-frame users.
> 
> .
> 
> Following recent events, including threats to personal safety, I have redacted the company’s information from the above post. any comments mentioning them have also been deleted. No campaign is worth putting the world of myself and my family at risk. In the event anything untoward does occur, there are people out there who know the perpetrator including Lincolnshire Police.
> 
> 
> 
> Following a recent catastrophic failure of an a-frame towed car I have, this week, (17.11.21) formally called upon Trading Standards and the Vehicle Safety Branch (VSB) of the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) to implement a PRODUCT RECALL on specific a-frame installations.
> 
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> CRUCIALLY, it should have had an emergency breakaway system installed in accordance with the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations 1986 [and amendments] and COMMISSION DIRECTIVE 98/12/EC.
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> As the company have ignored my request for more information, The number of vehicles affected is currently unknown but if your vehicle is one, a simple visual inspection will identify it.
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> Do NOT rely on any written statements like “Automatically sets itself up” or “Break-away safety features built in”.  Without the ring highlighted, it has no emergency braking in place!
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> The product is from a company known as [redacted]. Their standard practice would be to install the emergency breakaway facility, identifiable by a ring ‘mini-cable-tied’ to the vehicles front grill, adjacent to the 13 pin electrical socket.
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> The ring is for the attachment of a supplied, breakaway cable. SEE PHOTO.
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> if your vehicle was converted by this company and is lacking the ring, it is ESSENTIAL that your car is drawn to their attention with a view to being modified.  The company can be contacted at [redacted].
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> Home | Tony's Towing Trivia
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> Campaigning for towing & trailer safety over many years, Tony’s Towing Trivia is a blog concentrating on CatO2 Trailers, and Towing a-frames as used by Motorhome owners for their ‘TOADS’. Safety, including minus standards, is paramount but, legality, both at home and abroad, is also vital..
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That looks like a perfect demonstration of what happens when you fix a towing device to a vehicle that the manufacturer of the vehicle didn't design to be attached to.... 
Manufacturers spend years and massive amounts of money designing vehicles and parts thereof to do specific jobs... 
In the case of front end structures to protect occupants and pedestrians from damage. 
It's not in the least bit surprising if something goes wrong after a 3rd party comes along and boshes a towing device to, structures that weren't designed for it.... 
Let alone in the case above that structure also appears to be corroded where to towing device has been attached.


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## TonyEmm

mistericeman said:


> That looks like a perfect demonstration of what happens when you fix a towing device to a vehicle that the manufacturer of the vehicle didn't design to be attached to....
> Manufacturers spend years and massive amounts of money designing vehicles and parts thereof to do specific jobs...
> In the case of front end structures to protect occupants and pedestrians from damage.
> It's not in the least bit surprising if something goes wrong after a 3rd party comes along and boshes a towing device to, structures that weren't designed for it....
> Let alone in the case above that structure also appears to be corroded where to towing device has been attached.


Sadly, the installer hasn’t learned.  He is still, in 2022, offering Suzuki Alto’s, already converted! 
#TowLegal #TowSafe #TowSafe4Freddie


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## mistericeman

TonyEmm said:


> Sadly, the installer hasn’t learned.  He is still, in 2022, offering Suzuki Alto’s, already converted!
> #TowLegal #TowSafe #TowSafe4Freddie


To be honest I wouldn't be happy towing ANYTHING on a A frame that the Original vehicle manufacturer hadn't specifically approved... 

Anything else is frankly little more than lucky dip (or more correctly unlucky dip) 
Luckily this time no one was hurt or worse.


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## SimonM

gasgas said:


> In any case, why on earth tow a car behind a motorhome in the first place, even if the mechanics were viable? If you want a car once you are on a camp site then why not save many bucketfulls of pounds, and just go somewhere local and hire one?


Exactly what I did for a week’s holiday early last year. Parked up the MH at my cousin’s farm and got a car to whizz around in.


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## MrRob

__
		https://flic.kr/p/PjLRay
Is the only way to tow a car.


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## witzend

Obviously time to bann a frames in uk


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## colinm

Not the first car to have the front ripped out by a A frame, and unlikely to be the last. You need to inform DVSA who replaced VOSA, they used to keep a database for incidents like this. Also maybe the VCA who are supposed to police the certification of vehicles but seem to have buried their head in the sand over A frames.


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## TonyEmm

witzend said:


> Obviously time to bann a frames in uk


I’ve been campaigning for towing safety for over 30 years, including a-frames!  I don’t believe an outright ban is the way forward but I have been urging the DfT and DVSA to introduce controls and inspections.
The DfT have a lot to answer for with their view that an a-frame towed car will be acceptable as legal, provided it meets with existing towing legislation.  None do (or can) 100% and, my view is that TOAD’s should have their own vehicle classification and relevant rules, controls and inspections.

Of course, that still wouldn’t make them legal in Europe!  A number of EU countries (including France, Germany and Spain) have their own National laws that ban the towing of one motorised vehicle with another. 






						Home | Tony's Towing Trivia
					

Campaigning for towing & trailer safety over many years, Tony’s Towing Trivia is a blog concentrating on CatO2 Trailers, and Towing a-frames as used by Motorhome owners for their ‘TOADS’. Safety, including minus standards, is paramount but, legality, both at home and abroad, is also vital..




					spinner28.wixsite.com


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## TonyEmm

colinm said:


> Not the first car to have the front ripped out by a A frame, and unlikely to be the last. You need to inform DVSA who replaced VOSA, they used to keep a database for incidents like this. Also maybe the VCA who are supposed to police the certification of vehicles but seem to have buried their head in the sand over A frames.


DVSA were informed within days of this incident as were Trading Standards!
I’m not aware of any database that DVSA currently keep regarding a-frame issues, and I’m in contact with a few different departments….


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## Robmac

gasgas said:


> In any case, why on earth tow a car behind a motorhome in the first place, even if the mechanics were viable? If you want a car once you are on a camp site then why not save many bucketfulls of pounds, and just go somewhere local and hire one?



Or buy a caravan and tow it with a car.


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## colinm

TonyEmm said:


> DVSA were informed within days of this incident as were Trading Standards!
> I’m not aware of any database that DVSA currently keep regarding a-frame issues, and I’m in contact with a few different departments….


From (very poor) memory, it was about 10 years ago that incidents where being logged, I suppose people have moved on/retired and it's all been forgotten about.


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## colinm

I have no problem with the concept of A framing, but modern cars designed to crumple on impact, and long overhangs on large motorhomes are IMO a recipe for disaster.


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## mistericeman

TonyEmm said:


> I’ve been campaigning for towing safety for over 30 years, including a-frames!  I don’t believe an outright ban is the way forward but I have been urging the DfT and DVSA to introduce controls and inspections.
> The DfT have a lot to answer for with their view that an a-frame towed car will be acceptable as legal, provided it meets with existing towing legislation.  None do (or can) 100% and, my view is that TOAD’s should have their own vehicle classification and relevant rules, controls and inspections.
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> Home | Tony's Towing Trivia
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> Campaigning for towing & trailer safety over many years, Tony’s Towing Trivia is a blog concentrating on CatO2 Trailers, and Towing a-frames as used by Motorhome owners for their ‘TOADS’. Safety, including minus standards, is paramount but, legality, both at home and abroad, is also vital..
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No car SHOULD be considered for A frame use without the original vehicle manufacturers explicit agreement.... 

There can be NO safe way of attaching towing gear without designing it into the Monocoque/chassis. At the inception


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## colinm

mistericeman said:


> No car SHOULD be considered for A frame use without the original vehicle manufacturers explicit agreement....
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> There can be NO safe way of attaching towing gear without designing it into the Monocoque/chassis. At the inception


Yes, and no. Go to many museums and you will see aircraft hung from the building, not one of those aircraft where ever designed to be hung in such a way, and I doubt any manufacturer will agree to it, but some of us are qualified to certify this.
p.s. you might note my avatar.


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## mistericeman

colinm said:


> Yes, and no. Go to many museums and you will see aircraft hung from the building, not one of those aircraft where ever designed to be hung in such a way, and I doubt any manufacturer will agree to it, but some of us are qualified to certify this.


I suspect ALL those aircraft have undergone significant analysis and stress load calculations from rather qualified people.... 
Before being strung up AND approved by the relevant insurance companies... 

NOT dodgy Dave that can weld a bit and made an A frame to tow his banger and graduated to making them in bulk and flogging them on the Internet.... 
Without ANY sort of testing/certification/approval etc.... 

ANYTHING can be done.... 
Whether it can be done safely is another matter all together


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## Wully

Must be a full moon tonight.  Theres nothing in the world standard about any motorhome they are all basically stuck together do you think when they designed a truck for deliveries and builders that it was meant to have a two ton box on the back made of something just a little bit thicker than baking foil and balsa wood then stuffed with a bed and everything else you would find in a small house. I’m sure they weren’t designed nor tested properly to do that especially the bigger lumps like mine. I’ll carry on towing my wee car when I need it and enjoy it I know it’s not natural but so is sleeping in a big van when I’ve got a perfectly good house.


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## trevskoda

Towed many a skoda estelle on a home made a frame by removing the front bumper and fixing the frame to the bumper brackets which in turn are well bolted and plated to the front chassis legs.


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## Wully

O forgot to say by by for now see you all back here in another 3 or 4 years and we can have this pleasant chat all over again


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## TonyEmm

mistericeman said:


> No car SHOULD be considered for A frame use without the original vehicle manufacturers explicit agreement....
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> There can be NO safe way of attaching towing gear without designing it into the Monocoque/chassis. At the inception


It is somewhat ironic that a Towbar at the rear has to be tested, type approved and is even subject to inspection on the vehicle’s mot yet the DfT don’t consider a-frames attached to crumple zones (and could also affect airbag deployment) worthy of the same standards!


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## TonyEmm

Wully said:


> O forgot to say by by for now see you all back here in another 3 or 4 years and we can have this pleasant chat all over again


Hopefully in 3 or 4 years time, the DfT may have had an inspirational moment and suddenly decided it was time for a change!  A-frame days are numbered anyway unless technology moves on regarding EV’s…


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## trevskoda

TonyEmm said:


> It is somewhat ironic that a Towbar at the rear has to be tested, type approved and is even subject to inspection on the vehicle’s mot yet the DfT don’t consider a-frames attached to crumple zones (and could also affect airbag deployment) worthy of the same standards!


Never seen t bar testing and I have made many like the one on my van.


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## mistericeman

trevskoda said:


> Never seen t bar testing and I have made many like the one on my van.View attachment 108027


Doesn't mean its been tested to ANY standard.... 
And you can guarantee that any insurance company would be looking at a way of wriggling out out of any liability in the case, of an accident


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## TonyEmm

trevskoda said:


> Never seen t bar testing and I have made many like the one on my van.View attachment 108027


Towbars fitted to motorhomes first registered after October 2012 have to be type  approved.  The DfT don’t expect the tester to check the type approval label though! . They do however, have to check the electrics, but only if it’s 13 pin!


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## trevskoda

TonyEmm said:


> Towbars fitted to motorhomes first registered after October 2012 have to be type  approved.  The DfT don’t expect the tester to check the type approval label though! . They do however, have to check the electrics, but only if it’s 13 pin!


At first they tested the electrics but last few years gave up from what I seen.


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## Tezza33

Wully said:


> O forgot to say by by for now see you all back here in another 3 or 4 years and we can have this pleasant chat all over again


I seem to be having less and less in common every day with the members on here Wully, we should ban home conversions, they are not needed when you can buy a perfectly good motorhome built by experts.
Normal people (not that there are many on here) should not be allowed to work on their own vehicles, it cannot be safe if they are not fully trained mechanics, one of my neighbours changed his own headlight bulb last week, I do not feel safe driving at night anymore,


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## mistericeman

Tezza33 said:


> I seem to be having less and less in common every day with the members on here Wully, we should ban home conversions, they are not needed when you can buy a perfectly good motorhome built by experts.
> Normal people (not that there are many on here) should not be allowed to work on their own vehicles, it cannot be safe if they are not fully trained mechanics, one of my neighbours changed his own headlight bulb last week, I do not feel safe driving at night anymore,


Slight over reaction from changing a bulb to bolting on and towing another vehicle in a way that hasn't been tested/designed for.


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## Tezza33

I was being sarcastic, I thought it was better than posting what I really thought


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## TonyEmm

trevskoda said:


> At first they tested the electrics but last few years gave up from what I seen.


It’s still in the MoT inspection handbook… https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...s/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment


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## 1 Cup

Hay ho on tow.


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