# Elsan & Septic Tanks



## Smaug (Apr 20, 2013)

I note on other threads that some believe that formaldehyde will kill a Septic Tank. I understand that the reasoning is that the chemicals will kill the bacteria that make a Septic Tank work. However, I live off mains drainage & use a Septic Tank for the house foul water & I have on a couple of occasions emptied my own cassettes into the house tank without a problem.

I suspect this may be due to 2 things;

1/ I use less than the recommended dose of Elsan Blue in teh Cassette

2/ my sytem contains 2 tanks, a settlement  & a fermentation tank, each of about 1000 gall (they are large brick chambers) & I have only put a cassette load (5-10 gall?) in about once or twice a year.

Thus I believe that in SMALL quantities, there is no problem, but where campers congregate & the tank is subjected  to several cassette loads (or more) a day for several weeks I am sure that the concetration of formaldehyde will be significant.

Nevertheless, once my current carton of Elsan is gone, I shall be switching to Bio washing liquid. All I'm trying to do is help people understand why a little now & again is not fatal, but we must ensure that we don't swamp the popular places & cause problems which will get us banned.


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## maingate (Apr 20, 2013)

I think Formaldehyde is no longer an ingredient in many makes of Loo Blue.


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## maingate (Apr 20, 2013)

I have been 'Bionic' for years now. :lol-049:


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## Tbear (Apr 20, 2013)

The aim of the Blue is to kill bugs. Even if it was only a small amount which clearly would not kill all the natural bacteria in a septic tank, it may upset the balance of different types of bacteria. How much you can get away with and how often you can get away with it, God only knows. Please don,t forget that people put bleach and the like in their toilets so this will already have had a negative effect. 

I am going to stick with Bio-liquid which I am fairly sure will do less harm than the results of a good curry 

Richard


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## Smaug (Apr 20, 2013)

Tbear said:


> The aim of the Blue is to kill bugs. Even if it was only a small amount which clearly would not kill all the natural bacteria in a septic tank, it may upset the balance of different types of bacteria. How much you can get away with and how often you can get away with it, God only knows. Please don,t forget that people put bleach and the like in their toilets so this will already have had a negative effect.
> 
> I am going to stick with Bio-liquid which I am fairly sure will do less harm than the results of a good curry
> 
> Richard



Few people living "off mains" will use bleach to clean their loo, or even put bleach contaminated water down the sink. In fact, we have been advised not to use Bio pwders in the washing machine, altho that doesn't really seem to add up.


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## Tbear (Apr 20, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Few people living "off mains" will use bleach to clean their loo, or even put bleach contaminated water down the sink. In fact, we have been advised not to use Bio pwders in the washing machine, altho that doesn't really seem to add up.



Hi Smaug,

Yes I know the advise but how many people take it???

I think the thing about Bio Liquid is that it is based on an enzym so will break down organic matter. This may not do the bacteria a lot of good but not nearly as much damage as something designed to kill them.

Richard


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## Smaug (Apr 20, 2013)

You've excited my interest & I have ben & googled a bit & I came across this;


> Answer
> My answer may seem a bit convoluted, but bear with me.
> Most bacteria, of the type that are in your septic tank, contained carbon nitrogen and phosphorus in a specific ratio of approximately 100:20:1. The purpose of the septic tank is to degrade whatever is put into it. It is a type of anaerobic digester. Anaerobic digesters are reasonably good treatment systems, but they are very very slow.
> There are a few good databases on organic chemistry and biological the composition pathways -- but I would suspect that they are far beyond your interest level. If you have questions about a specific compound or a specific product I suggest that you go on the Web and obtain the Material Safety Data Sheet for the Item of interest. On the material safety data sheet you will find an indication of the toxicity of the compound. It may not be the best or totally relevant information, but it is by far the most available.
> ...



Ok, it is American, but chemistry is chemistry the world over & it seems that phospherous compounds are the problem. Interesting as phosphates are also used (along with nitrates) as fertilisers. But a you say, small amounts are not an issue, but a washing machine running with bio detergent once or twice a day could be.

I shall continue to use bio powder for soaking badly soiled items & throwing the water on the weeds on the garden - especially if it could be a fertilser!


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## torwood (Apr 20, 2013)

I have two large compost heaps in the garden and I dig a hole and empty there, a year later itis part of my compost.   I try to keep chemical disposal into the septic tank to a minimum.   It seems to work as 25 years and I still haven't had a need to empty the septic tank yet as the bacteria are working well.   Great saving on rates!

robert


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## Tbear (Apr 20, 2013)

Smaug said:


> You've excited my interest & I have ben & googled a bit & I came across this;
> 
> 
> Ok, it is American, but chemistry is chemistry the world over & it seems that phospherous compounds are the problem. Interesting as phosphates are also used (along with nitrates) as fertilisers. But a you say, small amounts are not an issue, but a washing machine running with bio detergent once or twice a day could be.
> ...



Surely ordinary washing powder is also high in phosphate


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## Diggerjohn (Apr 21, 2013)

In my job as a sewage plant installer I have seen many systems killed stone dead by only ONE cassette toilet being poured into a sewage treatment plant. Most campsite toilets are connected to sewage treatment plants, not septic tanks, and these are extremely sensitive to any labelled camping toilet chemicals, even the so called 'GREEN' ones, which are not very green as they still kill the plant.
Septic tanks are not quite so vulnerable as they work on anerobic bacteria, not aerobic, like a sewage treatment plant, but they will be killed as well.
The bacteria in sewage systems are living organisms and a very good rule of thumb is, if it would harm you, it isn't going to do the bacteriamuch good either.
The best detergent to use is the cheap one from ALDI. Their 'ALMAT' range of laundry products and dishwasher products contain no anti-bacterials and no phosphates either.


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## Smaug (Apr 21, 2013)

Diggerjohn said:


> In my job as a sewage plant installer I have seen many systems killed stone dead by only ONE cassette toilet being poured into a sewage treatment plant. Most campsite toilets are connected to sewage treatment plants, not septic tanks, and these are extremely sensitive to any labelled camping toilet chemicals, even the so called 'GREEN' ones, which are not very green as they still kill the plant.
> Septic tanks are not quite so vulnerable as they work on anerobic bacteria, not aerobic, like a sewage treatment plant, but they will be killed as well.
> The bacteria in sewage systems are living organisms and a very good rule of thumb is, if it would harm you, it isn't going to do the bacteriamuch good either.
> The best detergent to use is the cheap one from ALDI. Their 'ALMAT' range of laundry products and dishwasher products contain no anti-bacterials and no phosphates either.



That's really helpful, thanks. But what can Campsites do about their foul waste then? 

Busy sites will have hundreds of chemically dosed cassettes emptied into their disposal points over a bank holiday weekend - epecially on the Monday afternoon as many do not want to carry a part full cassette home. Are you saying that every campsite treatment plant will be killed every time a casette or two is emptied into it? That cannot be cost effective for site owners.


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## Diggerjohn (Apr 22, 2013)

Smaug said:


> That's really helpful, thanks. But what can Campsites do about their foul waste then?
> 
> Busy sites will have hundreds of chemically dosed cassettes emptied into their disposal points over a bank holiday weekend - epecially on the Monday afternoon as many do not want to carry a part full cassette home. Are you saying that every campsite treatment plant will be killed every time a casette or two is emptied into it? That cannot be cost effective for site owners.



Campsites have specially lined sealed cesspools for casette waste. They have to have the lining as the chemicals in the waste will eventually destroy the resin in the fibreglass, just like silage waste does. And yes - just ONE cassette toilet killed a 200 person plant on a caravan site just south of York a couple of years ago. It cost the campsite owner over £700 as he had to get it emptied and washed out and emptied again. If he could have found the person who did it, they would have been very sorry!

Thankfully, all touring caravan owners know that they must not put cassette waste down a toilet, but there is always the moron factor.


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## Smaug (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks DiggerJohn, very useful information. I was not aware that the Chemical waste emptying point was treated differently to normal foul waste, I just assumed (as many others might) that they went to the same foul drain. 

So we should NEVER empty casettes down a loo, anywhere?  That would make life harder.


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## Diggerjohn (Apr 22, 2013)

Smaug said:


> Thanks DiggerJohn, very useful information. I was not aware that the Chemical waste emptying point was treated differently to normal foul waste, I just assumed (as many others might) that they went to the same foul drain.
> 
> So we should NEVER empty casettes down a loo, anywhere?  That would make life harder.



Correct Smaug. You should NEVER empty them down toilets. Even if it is a public toilet, it causes havoc at the municipal sewage works.
The chemical toilet cesspool must be emptied by specialist waste disposal companies.


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## BrianG (Apr 22, 2013)

Fit a SOG problem solved!


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## Beemer (Apr 22, 2013)

Diggerjohn said:


> Correct Smaug. You should NEVER empty them down toilets. Even if it is a public toilet, it causes havoc at the municipal sewage works.
> The chemical toilet cesspool must be emptied by specialist waste disposal companies.




What you are saying then is I should not drive home in my motorhome, and then once at home, empty the contents of my chemical loo down the sewer drain?

But I could if I used a detergent in my 'van loo, i.e. Almat?


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## maingate (Apr 22, 2013)

BrianG said:


> Fit a SOG problem solved!



I have a SOG fitted but still use bio as well. Just enough to improve the aroma when emptying.


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## Deadsfo (Apr 26, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Been using the bio for years as most of my camping is in the wilds where mains sewers are unusual.
> 
> I use ALDI's in tablet form, far easier to use and measure. Two blocks does it for me.



I am amazed, are we saying that blocks of bio soap powder sold at ALDIS for use in ones washing machine to wash ones clothes is an efficient alternative to the horrible elsan blue that stains your hands and stinks awful and is just an awful product to use ,or am I getting my wires crossed.


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## Deleted member 26362 (Apr 26, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Absolutely, it's been on sites like these for many years. Cheaper and eco friendly to boot. A no brainer really.



I too have been using 2 Almo (Aldi Bio washing tablets) for a long time now.  I would by choice fit a SOG system but the loo is next to my habitation door and would be within the awning if used (not nice) so Almo it is.

Dai


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## Tow Itch (Apr 26, 2013)

Having a habit of being a know it all git I'm knocked back as to not knowing anything about this.
 So this horrible blue stuff that kills all the bacteria we don't need to use it and there are far better and cheaper alternatives?
 These other alternatives if they don't kill the bacteria what do they do? What is the risk to us by having a tub full of fermenting turd in close proximity? It's nice to have a non environmentally harming product in use but if it increases my chances of falling ill I might prefer environmental carnage.  
 I'm assuming all these other products do is curtail the smell if so would we be better off adding nothing and emptying more often. The smell becoming a self indicating mechanism that it was a good time to empty? Is all the blue stuff doing in effect odour control by stopping bacterial break up of the fecal matter?  
 If this blue stuff is so foul why is it not banned given the ever reducing levels of active ingredients in washing powder? 

 I'm trying this one on trust, this is hard for me. Could we limit answers to facts not opinions and any with links to relevant info get bonus points. From being interested in an idea I tend to research (the piss poor research of Google) everything myself as it tends to be morons talking crap on forums. Please feel free to prove me wrong in this instance.


 Interesting block on profanities. 5h1t is banned but piss crap and turd aren't.


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## Deleted member 26362 (Apr 26, 2013)

Tow Itch said:


> Having a habit of being a know it all git I'm knocked back as to not knowing anything about this.
> So this horrible blue stuff that kills all the bacteria we don't need to use it and there are far better and cheaper alternatives?
> These other alternatives if they don't kill the bacteria what do they do? What is the risk to us by having a tub full of fermenting turd in close proximity? It's nice to have a non environmentally harming product in use but if it increases my chances of falling ill I might prefer environmental carnage.
> I'm assuming all these other products do is curtail the smell if so would we be better off adding nothing and emptying more often. The smell becoming a self indicating mechanism that it was a good time to empty? Is all the blue stuff doing in effect odour control by stopping bacterial break up of the fecal matter?
> ...



Morons talking crap (quote) now are the experts of the future. Try it yourself and then post your comments.  Is the earth really round? Lol

Dai


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## vwalan (Apr 26, 2013)

i drove sewage tankers for a few years and has already been said ,have had to empty many a campsite sewage works thats been contaminated by the chemicals . you may get away with it a few times in your own but i wouldnt risk it . 
i use nothing ,never completely wash the cassette out .always leave a bit in . dont empty it too frequently far better to wait till its almost full.. and ideally use a seperate container for peeing in . dont think my toilet in the trailer as had chemicals in it for atleast ten years . 
have even seen septics get spoilt by kids chucking other paper and wrappers in the toilet . ink from newspaper is enough to do it sometimes .


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## wildman (Apr 27, 2013)

Smaug said:


> That's really helpful, thanks. But what can Campsites do about their foul waste then?
> 
> Busy sites will have hundreds of chemically dosed cassettes emptied into their disposal points over a bank holiday weekend - epecially on the Monday afternoon as many do not want to carry a part full cassette home. Are you saying that every campsite treatment plant will be killed every time a casette or two is emptied into it? That cannot be cost effective for site owners.



this is one of the hidden costs when I have a meet, the septic tank has to be pumped out, people generally seem to think all money from a meet goes into the site owners pocket, well it may do but don't remain too long.


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## sean rua (Apr 27, 2013)

I'd guess that this thread is another blow for those pushing for Aires all across the land.
 As I have said all along, ideally, imo, folk should crap in a hole in the ground and bury it. Carting sh ite and pee across the land is no good.

However, I am well aware that "experts" will state that my way is bad and terrible. They will cite perfectly feasible reasons, but, following on from a previous point made above, it is very difficult for the layman to tell the morons from those who actually know the truth.

The great thing is that Nature is very resilient, thank Goodness!
 I went to the site of a "plantation" of trees, set in the late forties. The lower end of the slope was the dumping ground for the "Elsan". The ground was always kind of boggy in the old days, while still in use.
 When I asked the farmer where were all the trees, he said they grew so big that he had to have them cut down.
 The area is lovely grassland now.

sean rua.


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## BrianG (Apr 27, 2013)

Flip Flap said:


> Only advantage I see in them over bio tabs/powders is the sucking in air effect when the blade is opened. I did consider one in the past but it's an expensive option.



I made my own. Cost me about £15-20.


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## Smaug (Apr 29, 2013)

I notice on another thread there is "some discussion" over disposal of toilet waste in wild areas, FWIW I bought a spare cassette off e-bay & carry it in the shower cubicle. If the toilet fills at an "inconvenient moment" it is easy to simple swop the full one for the empty spare. The full cassette is adequately sealed & even if there was leakage, it would be a simple matter to wash down the shower cubicle & it then gives me a few more days to find a suitable disposal point.

The DIY SOG is an interesting idea, 12v computer fans are easy to acquire, but I guess it would need a manual swtich rather than the blade operated system the commercial ones use. What would one use for the filter & its housing tho?


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## maingate (Apr 29, 2013)

Smaug said:


> I notice on another thread there is "some discussion" over disposal of toilet waste in wild areas, FWIW I bought a spare cassette off e-bay & carry it in the shower cubicle. If the toilet fills at an "inconvenient moment" it is easy to simple swop the full one for the empty spare. The full cassette is adequately sealed & even if there was leakage, it would be a simple matter to wash down the shower cubicle & it then gives me a few more days to find a suitable disposal point.
> 
> The DIY SOG is an interesting idea, 12v computer fans are easy to acquire, but I guess it would need a manual swtich rather than the blade operated system the commercial ones use. *What would one use for the filte*r & its housing tho?



A number of people just use the filters for cooker hoods.

I used mine for nearly a year with no filter in at all. It made no difference to us and nobody passing by complained about the smell. :lol-061: Although I do use a bit of Bio liquid as well.


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