# Gas On or Gas Off whilst driving?



## Wind Dancer (Sep 15, 2012)

I was always told that I Must have my gas bottle closed whilst driving, for safety reasons of course.   
I didn't question it, and duly switched my fridge over and shut off the bottle every trip. (It always took me a couple of hours at the other end to remember to switch it back on though) :mad1::mad1:   

Then I met someone who said he never turned his off as that was his only way to run his fridge.

What do the panel think?


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## shortcircuit (Sep 15, 2012)

You have opened a big can of worms and we will have legal opinions, elf and safety and many other illogical reasons.  Never switch mine off although did so when using the tunnel

Runnach,  I understand when on 12volts the fridge is powered by the alternator so it will not discharge the battery


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## Deleted member 21686 (Sep 15, 2012)

basildog said:


> ON
> But look out the thought police will be along shortly !
> I often put dinner in the oven to cook as I travel



You're winding us up Bas?


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## Deleted member 21686 (Sep 15, 2012)

basildog said:


> You think ?
> Those that know me know I would and do !
> kettle is always half full when I leave too as that goes on at the first sign of any traffic hol ups !
> This poxy british van will not let you turn the pump on with the engine running like my other vans so now always leave with water in the kettle .



You call that poxy bas?


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## Mastodon (Sep 15, 2012)

My gas bottle pigtails have widgets which shut off the gas if a leak develops (Might be a Truma Secu motion). So legally I can leave the gas on.


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## Deleted member 21686 (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes I leave my gas on to.


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## vindiboy (Sep 15, 2012)

Good idea to leave the Fridge running on Gas as you travel, then go into a Garage for Diesel and ignite the Petrol vapours BANG , or have a crash, [ Won't happen to you ?] rupture your gas lines and another possible BANG, no I will continue to turn my bottles off Thankyou.


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## shortcircuit (Sep 15, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> My gas bottle pigtails have widgets which shut off the gas if a leak develops (Might be a Truma Secu motion). *So legally I can leave the gas on*.



I did say this was a can of worms, from where do you determine its illegal?


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## David & Ann (Sep 15, 2012)

This is my routine with the gas. My gas runs continueously except when I am on the ferry, which I turn off as soon as they start loading. I also turn off my gas each time just before I enter a gas station to fuel up. Sometimes the gas goes out while I am driving, due to cross winds or when having a bumpy ride. I always check the gas when I stop for a break. ☺☺☺


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## n brown (Sep 15, 2012)

life is a calculated risk.i always leave my gas on,with dodgy alternators i have done hundreds of miles with the  fridge lit, coming back to blighty in the worst of winter in a van with no heater i drove hundreds of miles with the woodburner alight,i may have done a lot of bad things like this but i'm alright with it.my wife often made me a cup of tea as we bowled along the motorways,my bad.hey ho


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## Tbear (Sep 15, 2012)

Not only do I leave the 10 litre gas on  I have the 70 litre Petrol on as well. I must be mad:wacko:

Richard


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## baldybloke (Sep 15, 2012)

Gas on, but fridge running 12v, means I can have a cuppa whilst sat on roads like the London Orbital Carpark!


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## shortcircuit (Sep 15, 2012)

vindiboy said:


> Good idea to leave the Fridge running on Gas as you travel, then go into a Garage for Diesel and ignite the Petrol vapours BANG , or have a crash, [ Won't happen to you ?] rupture your gas lines and another possible BANG, no I will continue to turn my bottles off Thankyou.



Its Saturday night so will be a bit liberal.  What a load of tosh.  

Ignite the petrol vapours - I fill up at a petrol station where the pump is about 3m from the footpath.  Theres a bloke standing there smoking a fag, should I fill up and risk this huge explosion?

Well yes I have had a crash and my "petrol" pipe has burst leaking petrol all over the place.  I assume because its not gas its not going to explode.

I like Saturday nights because it full of MH likely to self explode.

If you feel happy turning your gas off then you should also turn the petrol off an then you will be really secure.


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## Tbear (Sep 15, 2012)

I did get a valve to put on my tank to shut off the gas in case of rapid gas loss.:idea:  It Leaked

Richard


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## Firefox (Sep 16, 2012)

Off according to the book. But just how much of a risk it is if you leave it on, depends on the construction of your vehicle and the location of your gas locker. Mine is very well onboard protected rear and side by lots of metal. It would take a massive collision cutting the van in two or writing it off to disrupt the gas installation. If your van is coachbuilt and the gas bottle is in the outside fibreglass or aluminium bottom locker the bottle or pipes can easily be disrupted in a collision which could lead to an escape of gas or an explosion.


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## Bushtrekker (Sep 16, 2012)

*My fridge stopped working on 12 volts some time back.*

I can't trace the fuse so it now runs on gas all the time unless I'm on EHU. The gas bottles are in a locker half way along the vehicle and secured with straps, so unless I get a direct hit on the side of the vehicle it should be OK.


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## Dezi (Sep 16, 2012)

I have a 10kg LPG tank under the van. I leave the gas on, but always use the leisure batteries ( 2 x 130 amp ) to power the fridge when on the move.

The webasto heater runs on diesel from the vehicle fuel tank (20 gallons)  add the solar panel &  camp sites are very rarely needed.

Incidently the amount of energy  (e = mc2 ) stored in a 10kg lpg tank is sufficient to obliterate a very large house. Fortunately its not that easy to explode one.  

Propane Tank Explosions, Accidents and BLEVE's 


Dezi   c:


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## kenspain (Sep 16, 2012)

Here if your stopped on a road side police check and the gas is on 60euro fine:cheers:


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## n brown (Sep 16, 2012)

i showed this thread to my wife who reminded me she used to do a bacon sarnie and a cup of tea as we went along,i would shout ''corner'' and she'd grab the frying pan and kettle and brace herself. how we survive our lives i'll never know!what's that? we don't?damn.


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## mumumum4 (Sep 16, 2012)

We leave ours on. Only time it's turned off is to change the bottle.

Alison


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## n brown (Sep 16, 2012)

in those days we didn't have telly,we had to make our own entertainment! the first elf and safety man wasn't even a twinkle in his dad's eye yet,my wife has also reminded me ,we had a roofrack accessible through a large hatch and she used to peg the nappies to the sides to dry as we drove along,and talking of washing machines,she'd do the family wash in the river and hang it on ropes all over the van to dry.lovely sight to see it all done and drying in the sun


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## Kontiki (Sep 16, 2012)

I always leave mine on gas unless we are on the tunnel or ferry, my handbook tells me it is fine to leave the Truma heater running on gas as it the system is fitted with the securmotion system. If I use the auto option of the fridge to switch between 12v, 240v or gas it will switch to the gas during the time I can be filling up with fuel.


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## GeoffB (Sep 16, 2012)

When we bought our VW Cali they said very firmly that the gas must be off at the mains when driving, so we dutifully shut it off each time we drove on our continental trip.  If you go through the Channel Tunnel they insist on seeing you have turned it off at the bottle before they let you drive on, makes sense I guess.


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## shortcircuit (Sep 16, 2012)

GeoffB said:


> When we bought our VW Cali they said very firmly that the gas must be off at the mains when driving, so we dutifully shut it off each time we drove on our continental trip.  If you go through the Channel Tunnel they insist on seeing you have turned it off at the bottle before they let you drive on, makes sense I guess.



Used the tunnel for the first time this year.  At Folkestone gas was given a quick look.  On the way back I was asked if gas was off with no inspection, so its not consistent.


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## silverweed (Sep 16, 2012)

It's gas on for me. The fridge has been know to be on on the move but only cos iv forgotten to change over. I'm too mean to use gas knowingly when it can be working for free when driving. Iv not made more then sarnies on the move, time I think to move up the adventurous stacks and start cooking, wafting curry smells down the M25. Sounds good


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## n brown (Sep 16, 2012)

we get poitrine en tranches from the deli counter,done to our own thickness,or buy pieces of belly pork from the cooked meat section,normally used for lardons,and slice it up.perfectly adequate yum


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## bopper (Sep 16, 2012)

Always travel with gas on and fridge lit. I normally fill up with Diesel before a trip and then the gas is off but light it as we set off because the 12v heaters on these fridges have so much demand from the batteries/alternator. I try to remember when I go into a garage to switch it off but sometimes forget. You know that feeling when you pull away from the garage and some bloke opposite has just put in £50 worth of unleaded and you suddenly remember "Sh** I forgot to turn the fridge off" and the backing track running in the brain starts playing the 'Hallelujah chorus'.


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## ellisboy (Sep 16, 2012)

Always travel with gas on ( bulk tank) there's a red isolater tap where the gas enters the van,so no need to crawl under to turn off.I don't understand why you would need to turn the gas off on a ferry? :anyone: There's surely far more to worry about.


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2012)

From Brittany Ferries terms and conditions:

_No dangerous goods or firearms may be brought on board without our written permission. Dangerous goods must be declared at the time of booking and on arrival at the port and can only be transported in a vehicle. No dangerous goods or firearms may be carried by a foot-passenger. If in doubt as to whether items qualify as dangerous goods, please ask us before travel or boarding may be refused. If you are carrying these items with our permission please report to the Duty Manager at check in. The transport of petrol cans is specifically forbidden. *A maximum of 3 x 15kg gas cylinders may be carried, the cylinders must be switched off during the voyage.*_


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2012)

Frankly it beggars belief that so many people can be so callous!

Travelling with gas on and fridge lit risks your life, plus that of other road users - and will probably invalidate your vehicle insurance. And you may also find to be invalid the third party liability cover that you believe will protect you ...

Totally ridiculous!


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## shortcircuit (Sep 16, 2012)

Canalsman said:


> Frankly it beggars belief that so many people can be so callous!
> 
> Travelling with gas on and fridge lit risks your life, plus that of other road users - and will *probably* invalidate your vehicle insurance. And you *may* also find to be invalid the third party liability cover that you believe will protect you ...
> 
> Totally ridiculous!



As you say "totally rediculous" based on supposition


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## maingate (Sep 16, 2012)

I am with Canalsman on this (not that I am bothered what anyone else does, they are adults, allegedly). 

In the event of an accident, the inflammable gas is securely contained within a metal cylinder. If the valve is left open, there is only a weak rubber hose to contain the gas and therefore much more chance of an escape and a fire which will destroy the vehicle in minutes (there are youtube videos that show how quickly a van goes up in flames).

As for an explosion, this is the stuff of Hollywood. There will be some pressure in the gaseous part of the bottle but it is nearly all liquid in a full bottle. An empty one could be more dangerous though. The optimum explosive force occurs when there is between 5.5 and 9.25% gas and 94.5 to 90.75 air. The figures I have given are for Methane gas and should be in the same area for Propane or Butane gas.


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2012)

I used to own a narrow boat.

The gas cylinders were stored within a separate totally enclosed, bar low level vents, compartment made of steel 6mm thick.

The compartment was some feet away from the living accommodation.

A boat of that type travels at not much more than 3mph.

Contrast that with a flimsily constructed motorhome travelling at speeds up to 70mph, and with the gas cylinders integral with the accommodation.

I'd suggest that there is no parallel whatsoever ...

All ferry companies operate a 'gas off' policy as far as I'm aware. And doubtless that is a condition under which they obtain insurance for their vessels through Lloyds and others.

Leaving your gas turned on when you are clearly advised within their terms and conditions to turn it off is equally callous.

And as for falling off a ladder - I don't see the connection since the only person likely to be injured is the user.


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## n brown (Sep 16, 2012)

gas bottles and tanks have blow off vaves to release gas in case of fire,in this vid about half way through you can hear the valve letting gas out.boats are dangerous because its accepted that all gas containers leak a little and in the case of a boat this leakage has no escape and collects in the bilge.if the owner after a lay up forgets to purge the accumulated gas then there is a real risk of explosion,this is why gas escape holes are important in vans


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## Techno100 (Sep 16, 2012)

I confess rightly or wrongly I do on occasion travel with fridge on gas, usually on the start of a journey. Once the fridge is up to speed I do of course save the gas and revert to 12volts.
12 volts will not bring the temperature down only maintain it at best.
I am mindful to be full of diesel pre trip so no need to visit a petrol station with gas alight.
I dont text or use my phone while driving and 26 were killed last year doing just that. I'm not aware of any motorhome gas explosions in the same period?


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2012)

Reference car ferries, it is a requirement within the Department of Transport Notice MGN340 that gas cylinders be shut off:

_*Pressure receptacles (gas cylinders) carried on Ro-Ro Ships*

(i)    The MCA has replaced MGN 19 by MGN 341. With reference to the Carriage of Gas  Cylinders in boats, caravans and other vehicles where the gas is used solely in connection with its operation or business; information previously found in section 8 of MGN 19 has been further developed and the carriage requirements expanded. These requirements can be found below:

(ii)    This is a general approval and as such does not guarantee carriage in every case. It is important users inform the shipping line at the time of booking and not just prior to boarding, as operational constraints may limit the cargo including caravans being carried.  

*(iii)    In paragraphs 1 – 5 below inclusive, the gas supply should be shut off at the cylinders and all cylinders should be adequately secured against movement of the ship, away from sources of ignition and heat.  
*
*The requirement to declare to the shipping line prior to the sea journey remains.  

Failure to declare may be considered an offence under the Merchant Shipping (Dangerous Goods and Marine Pollutant) Regulations.* 

The following gives detailed guidance on paragraphs (i) and (ii).  

1) “Nominally empty”

It should be noted that the IMDG Code considers empty pressure receptacles (cylinders) as dangerous goods unless purged and a certificate confirming this accompanies the cylinder.  

2) Toxic gases

Gases which are toxic are excluded from this general approval.  

3) Oxygen/Acetylene

The following provision applies to gases carried purely for maintenance work. One acetylene or propane/butane cylinder up to 35 kg gross mass and one oxygen cylinder up to 40kg gross mass, both pressure receptacles (cylinder) should be less than 1m in height and disconnected from any equipment prior to boarding the vessel.  It should be noted that local regulations may not permit their carriage.  No other class 2 or class 3 liquids are permitted in the same cargo transport unit (vehicle).   

Note: It is advised that the local harbour authorities are contacted regarding their local regulations before taking acetylene into a harbour area.  

4) Propane and butane for private use   

Up to a total of 47 kg (excluding weight of gas receptacle)

5) Calibration gases

Gases which are not toxic and are used for calibration purposes may be carried provided the aggregate water capacity of the pressure receptacles (cylinder) or small receptacles containing gas (gas cartridges) does not exceed 50 litres.  

6) Ambulances

Ambulances, which are, for the purposes of this notice, vehicles used to carry sick, injured or disabled persons to a place where they will receive treatment and then be returned, are in some instances unable to comply fully with the conditions of the Regulations. In recognition of the necessity for these vehicles to operate unhindered, the MCA accepts that they may be carried under the conditions as follows:

(i)    Gas cylinders carried must be for the sole purpose of the ambulance operation.

(ii)    The maximum number of cylinders carried must be six, of size 'F' or smaller (i.e. up to

60 litres aggregate water capacity), containing oxygen or UN 3156 Compressed gas,

oxidising N.O.S (Oxygen, Nitrous oxide), (trade name entonox). Note size F has 9.4

litres water capacity.

Approximate dimensions of Size F Cylinder = 930mmx140mm

(iii)    Cylinders should be declared to the ship's officer or shore side personnel prior to loading.

(iv)    All cylinders should be adequately secured inside the vehicle before loading against the movement of the ship.

(v)    Supply should be shut off at the cylinder except when necessary for the immediate needs of any patient carried within the ambulance.

(vi)    Leaking and inadequately secured or connected cylinders should be refused for shipment.

(vii)    The vehicle must be readily identifiable as an ambulance.

7) Medical oxygen for personal use carried in vehicles not readily identifiable as ambulances

Private vehicles used to carry sick or disabled persons may carry up to six, of size 'F' or smaller (i.e. up to 60 litres aggregate water capacity) containing UN 1072 oxygen, compressed provided the patient has a letter from a doctor stating they require medical oxygen.  

In addition to the above conditions, shipping lines must be informed at the time of booking and use of oxygen on board ship is only in non smoking areas designated by the master.  

*Note: Shipping lines are invited to bring the above information to the attention of their customers.* _


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## Canalsman (Sep 16, 2012)

I disagree - vehicles within a confined space on a ferry deck, or on a garage forecourt dispensing highly volatile fuels, are NOT areas where discretion, intelligent or otherwise, should be permitted.

Nor is the open road where your vehicle, possibly through no fault of your own, is involved in a collision.

Sorry - but LPG is not a substance that can be treated with anything other than the greatest awareness of what harm it can do.


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## Kontiki (Sep 16, 2012)

While people have differing opinions there seems to be quite a high percentage who drive with the gas on. I would assume there is a reasonable chance that the cross section of opinions is typical of all motorhomers then there must be quite a lot driving with gas on. Given this then if there must be a high risk of fire (some peoples opinions) does anybody know of any accidents that have happened & resulted in a fire??

Is this another alarmist reaction similar to the 'gassing' or a real danger?

Running a fridge on 12 volts isn't as effective as on gas, it also isn't free as your fuel consumption will suffer. It's a fallacy to think that you are getting free 12 volt electric when the engine is running, the more the alternator has to work the more fuel it will use.


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## n brown (Sep 16, 2012)

afraid so


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> I did say this was a can of worms, from where do you determine its illegal?



Apparently it's a legal requirement in Germany where the van was built.


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

basildog said:


> Yes I have never heard of it being illegal !
> If you read a lot of the heater manufacturers instruction manuals they even say suitable for use while travelling !



My Eberspacher heater (diesel powered) was certified for use while travelling. SecuMotionHere's a link to Truma, read into it what you will. The device cuts off the gas supply at the bottle in case of major pressure drop(eg broken pipe) downstream. Without it the regulator will continue to feed gas into the burning wreckage of your van.


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## shortcircuit (Sep 16, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> *Apparently* it's a legal requirement in Germany where the van was built.



A well that's quite definitive?????


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> Its Saturday night so will be a bit liberal.  What a load of tosh.
> 
> Ignite the petrol vapours - I fill up at a petrol station where the pump is about 3m from the footpath.  Theres a bloke standing there smoking a fag, should I fill up and risk this huge explosion?
> 
> ...



Petrol is only going to explode if the fuel /air mix is correct (14.7:1 as I recall). Piston engines work on this principle and we've all had difficulty starting engines despite best efforts of designers and engineers. Gas is the same - try lighting butane on a cold day... Most vehicles these days are fitted with a fuel shut off valve, so yes, the petrol is turned off when you stop. By all means take risks, but put big stickers on your van to prevent rescuers participating in your Darwin Award.


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

ellisboy said:


> Always travel with gas on ( bulk tank) there's a red isolater tap where the gas enters the van,so no need to crawl under to turn off.I don't understand why you would need to turn the gas off on a ferry? :anyone: There's surely far more to worry about.



The reason you turn the gas off on the ferry is because gas is heavier than air, if it leaks it works it's way down into the bilges and accumulates. Same with the channel tunnel. Any yachtsman will pump the bilges every morning to pump out any accumulated gas.


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> A well that's quite definitive?????



Difficult to be definitive without actually reading reading the appropriate regulations for all the countries the device is likely to pass through on it's travels, which I haven't done. Hence apparently.


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## shortcircuit (Sep 16, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> Petrol is only going to explode if the fuel /air mix is correct (14.7:1 as I recall). Piston engines work on this principle and we've all had difficulty starting engines despite best efforts of designers and engineers. Gas is the same - try lighting butane on a cold day... Most vehicles these days are fitted with a fuel shut off valve, so yes, the petrol is turned off when you stop. By all means take risks, but put big stickers on your van to prevent rescuers participating in your Darwin Award.



So petrol sloping about the road is not going to ignite until it meets a specific mixture  - I think not.  Yes petrol can be turned off automatically but that's in the nice situation where the fuel line/tank is not ruptured.  Unfortunately I witnessed a poor individual trapped in a vehicle on fire as it had been hit from the rear and that was not a pleasant sight.

As far as taking risks my cylinders are in a secure cabinet, properly restrained and connected using stainless steel braided tubes, no different to a gas powered vehicle. Stickers, well that's a bit childish as rescue services will be well aware to expect gas in MHs.

As usual on this subject there is a lot of scaremongering without substance


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## Mastodon (Sep 16, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> So petrol sloping about the road is not going to ignite until it meets a specific mixture  - I think not.  Yes petrol can be turned off automatically but that's in the nice situation where the fuel line/tank is not ruptured.  Unfortunately I witnessed a poor individual trapped in a vehicle on fire as it had been hit from the rear and that was not a pleasant sight.
> 
> As far as taking risks my cylinders are in a secure cabinet, properly restrained and connected using stainless steel braided tubes, no different to a gas powered vehicle. Stickers, well that's a bit childish as rescue services will be well aware to expect gas in MHs.
> 
> As usual on this subject there is a lot of scaremongering without substance



Here's a phrase to toy with - "my engine is flooded" Full of water? no I think not - fuel mixture too rich to ignite? Yep. Same with a puddle of petrol - close up there isn't enough air to support combustion. Vehicle fuel tanks are crash tested, I doubt that motorhome gas installations with their manifold permutations are. Yes, the rescue services will be expecting gas bottles - but perhaps they also expect reponsible precautions to be taken by the drivers.


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## maingate (Sep 16, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> *So petrol sloping about the road is not going to ignite until it meets a specific mixture  *- I think not.  Yes petrol can be turned off automatically but that's in the nice situation where the fuel line/tank is not ruptured.  Unfortunately I witnessed a poor individual trapped in a vehicle on fire as it had been hit from the rear and that was not a pleasant sight.
> 
> As far as taking risks my cylinders are in a secure cabinet, properly restrained and connected using stainless steel braided tubes, no different to a gas powered vehicle. Stickers, well that's a bit childish as rescue services will be well aware to expect gas in MHs.
> 
> ...


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## Firefox (Sep 16, 2012)

Kontiki said:


> Running a fridge on 12 volts isn't as effective as on gas, it also isn't free as your fuel consumption will suffer. It's a fallacy to think that you are getting free 12 volt electric when the engine is running, the more the alternator has to work the more fuel it will use.



Yes this is why those HHO generator scams didn't work. 

If I need to run my fridge when on the move I run it on 240v off the inverter and make sure the alternator charge is on. It seems to work well that way.


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## Tbear (Sep 16, 2012)

I admit that if I have a collision and a naked flame then at least in theory, it will increase the chance of a fire.

The flame is in an enclosed area away from petrol and gas tanks.

If I have a high speed crash which may well rupture any of my tanks, the friction may well cause sparks. Damage to the electrics may well cause sparks. The spilling of battery acid onto all sorts of things may well cause a fire. Surely then its the amount of explosive fuel becomes the deciding factor. Should we therefore not be limited to just a couple of kilos of gas. Instead the couple of 15kg cylinders many carry.

With bombs and missiles, nuclear waste and weapons, 40 ton tankers full of petrol comeing at me with closing speeds of a 100mph regularly on British  roads the last thing I am going to worry about is my fridge being on gas,

Don't get me started on the number of road deaths and maimings, I know of none caused by a fridge left on. You have to be mad to travel on the road in the first place.


Richard


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## Firefox (Sep 16, 2012)

Yep, there is obviously an increased risk but I judge it to be very very small and dependent on your installation it could be negligible. Similar argument to filling gas bottles using adapters. 

You just don't hear of any accidents, although there are clearly many people going around doing both. 

Something like wearing a seatbelt is different. If you have any sort of head on collision you are going to go through the windscreen if not wearing one. In fact, if it were not for seatbelts I wouldn't be here now. That's clearly a safety feature which mitigates against a very high risk.


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## Deleted member 21686 (Sep 16, 2012)

It does not seem a good idea to cook while travelling.


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## Tony Lee (Sep 17, 2012)

Seems as if there are still a few people who just do not understand basic physics and chemistry relating to the combustion of pools of petrol lying in the ground, of liquid propane escaping from a ruptured tank - and that becomes even more of a concern when sensible posters point out the dangers and the naysayers continue to deny the obvious. Do they not read the newspapers or watch the TV news.

Dangers or otherwise of running a fridge on gas on the road - or running a gas furnace while moving - pale into statistical insignificance alongside stupidities such as 


> As for my wife putting the kettle on and brewing up while under-way, the only person at risk is my wife. I don't see that as being the business of anybody else.



Also incredibly inaccurate as to the possible consequences, but apart from that, beggars belief that anyone supposedly in charge of a motor vehicle would allow a passenger to risk life and limb for such a trivial saving of time.


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## Mr 99g (Sep 17, 2012)

*Gas on gas off*

Boring !!


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## Beemer (Sep 17, 2012)

For the first time in two years I had to turn off the gas in the locker of my motorhome, due to a channel tunnel journey. When I got to France I forgot to switch back on and travelled to our overnight stop.  That evening it took a while to light the fridge and cooker, which I found annoying, wondering if my appliances were faulty.
I can see the safety of switching off gas whilst travelling though....... but as a motorcyclist my life is already full of 'ifs' and 'buts'. :drive:


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## shortcircuit (Sep 17, 2012)

maingate said:


> shortcircuit said:
> 
> 
> > *So petrol sloping about the road is not going to ignite until it meets a specific mixture  *- *I think not.*  Yes petrol can be turned off automatically but that's in the nice situation where the fuel line/tank is not ruptured.  Unfortunately I witnessed a poor individual trapped in a vehicle on fire as it had been hit from the rear and that was not a pleasant sight.
> ...


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## Dezi (Sep 17, 2012)

As usual on this site a simple question brings out a slightly obnoxious response in some contributors. Can we please keep things pleasant & civilised?

As stated I have a fixed LPG tank, I also stated that I drive with my gas on.

Outside the tank (under the van) I have a screw turn off valve (not easy to get to). The pipe work from the tank to the internal part of the van (lower cupboard) is copper with regulation approved brass screw adaptors.

In the cupboard is another turn off valve. The pipe work from the cupboard to the cooker / fridge is the same as above. Both the fridge & the cooker have turn off controls.

I also stated that I use my vehicle batteries to power the fridge while driving.

Are the “turn off while driving” fraternity suggesting that I turn off my gas via the valve in the cupboard, or are you seriously suggesting that I get Madam to crawl under the van after each pit stop ? 

Dezi   c:


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## shortcircuit (Sep 17, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> Here's a phrase to toy with - "my engine is flooded" Full of water? no I think not - fuel mixture too rich to ignite? Yep. Same with a puddle of petrol - close up there isn't enough air to support combustion. Vehicle fuel tanks are crash tested, I doubt that motorhome gas installations with their manifold permutations are. Yes, the rescue services will be expecting gas bottles - but perhaps they also expect reponsible precautions to be taken by the drivers.



When I used the expression "my engine is flooded"  it had absolutely nothing to do with the mixture being to rich.  What happens is that to much fuel enters the cylinders and then soaks the spark plugs so they will not spark.  Perhaps a motoring enthusiast will confirm this.


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## Robmac (Sep 17, 2012)

Surely the law says that passengers should be seated and wearing a seat belt.


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## Robmac (Sep 17, 2012)

That's OK. Send me £50 and we'll say no more about it!


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## baldybloke (Sep 17, 2012)

[No message]


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## Robmac (Sep 17, 2012)

One of my old boats, (Seamaster 27) steered such a straight course on the river, that I could pop down and put the kettle on providing nothing coming the other way.


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## Viktor (Sep 17, 2012)

> So, I am irresponsible for travelling with gas on, would I be the same if my vehicle can be run on gas, surely same principle applies here, open gas tank (to engine) with feed line, severed if in a crash??



I had my van converted to gas on it being built as a campervan.  I have found that I have had to brake sharply several times recently due to bad driving from other road users.  If I brake sharply enough the engine which is running on LPG immediately cuts out along with the ignition , so I'm presuming there is a motion sensor at work shutting off the gas and ignition.  Unfortunately that also activates the immobiliser so I grind to a halt and have to go through the start sequence again to deactivate the immobiliser.

Annoying but I can see the sense in it..not good though if you have to brake sharply and need then to accelerate away from another potential impact.


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## Mastodon (Sep 17, 2012)

shortcircuit said:


> When I used the expression "my engine is flooded"  it had absolutely nothing to do with the mixture being to rich.  What happens is that to much fuel enters the cylinders and then soaks the spark plugs so they will not spark.  Perhaps a motoring enthusiast will confirm this.



But not one who drives a diesel.

Flooded engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There you go... but what do I know - gas turbines are my forte... piston engines was a bolt on.


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## shortcircuit (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks for that info. "In worst cases, the excess fuel can foul spark plugs,"


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## Teutone (Sep 17, 2012)

well, if you are in a crash in a MH which is strong enough to harm your gas installation in whatever way, you will be dead anyway before the gas is igniting IMHO

NO van has to pass a crash test. Only cars.

Ever thought about that? So how save do you think your van is? Sprinter V Transit Crash Test - YouTube

I have a Truma Secumotion fitted for this scenario. In newer vans it's legal to have the gas running while moving with this setup. 
But countries differ.


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## baldybloke (Sep 17, 2012)

Now I knew there was a reason why I am not a fan of transits..............


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## Teutone (Sep 17, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> But not one who drives a diesel.
> 
> Flooded engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia There you go... but what do I know - gas turbines are my forte... piston engines was a bolt on.



I partly disagree with this article.

Even fuel injected engines get flooded sometimes. AND you can get them started with pushing the acclerator pedal down. Because if you DON'T touch the pedal and the engine temp is low,
the oh-so-clever ECU will still RICHEN up the mixture to get the engine going. If you push the pedal and open the throttle the start enrichment is aborted and MORE air is coming in to clear the
excess petrol. :idea-007:


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## baldybloke (Sep 17, 2012)

Viktor said:


> I had my van converted to gas on it being built as a campervan.  I have found that I have had to brake sharply several times recently due to bad driving from other road users.  If I brake sharply enough the engine which is running on LPG immediately cuts out along with the ignition , so I'm presuming there is a motion sensor at work shutting off the gas and ignition.  Unfortunately that also activates the immobiliser so I grind to a halt and have to go through the start sequence again to deactivate the immobiliser.
> 
> Annoying but I can see the sense in it..not good though if you have to brake sharply and need then to accelerate away from another potential impact.



I agree with others, this has gone from a safety feature, to an inherently dangerous fault, there is no way that the system should react like this to even the sharpest emergency braking.


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## Mastodon (Sep 17, 2012)

Fiat Ducato Camper "Wohnwagen" (48 Km/h) Frontal Impact - YouTube Perhaps the gas bottles are well secured by a 20mm nylon strap and a plastic buckle held on with a rivet, but that's not a lot of help when your gas hob hits you in the back of the head... I suspect that some of the gas pipes may have failed in this crash...


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## Mastodon (Sep 17, 2012)

Fiat Ducato Camper Vs. Mercedes-Benz E-Class (W124) Rear Impact - YouTube In this one there's someone in the kitchen making a cuppa...


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## mark61 (Sep 17, 2012)

While converting my van, I often wondered if I should keep the bulk head in. I didn't, live dangerously, lol. I do think it's crash testing that eventually will put an end to self builds, not that there any worse then many flimsies. I certainly ain't donating my van for a crash test.


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## vwalan (Sep 17, 2012)

what crash tests there isnt any really .you can as a manufacturer volunteer to have a test but you dont have to. 
as for the gas a excess flow valve with shut off cures the accident damage .


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## mark61 (Sep 17, 2012)

vwalan said:


> what crash tests there isnt any really .you can as a manufacturer volunteer to have a test but you dont have to.
> as for the gas a excess flow valve with shut off cures the accident damage .



Yes, at the moment. Give it another 20 years though. 
Good grief, you can't have people converting their own vans, whatever next, they'll be wanting to overnight anywhere in them.   :raofl:


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## Dezi (Sep 18, 2012)

Well I am surprised gentlemen. Two days ago “the turn it off” fraternity were very vocal on the rights & wrongs of it. We even had legislation printed.

So I asked a simple question “where exactly should “I turn it off” to comply with supposed legality, & in response.

Nothing, not a single reply, not a twitter, tweetless in fact.

We are off to foreign climes in a couple of weeks & I wish to be legal, in fact I have had Madam on standby for two days complete with kneepads ready to dive under the van & tackle the valve on the LPG tank should you deem it necessary & she is now getting funny looks from the neighbours.

Yours in desperation Dezi   c:c:c:


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## baldybloke (Sep 18, 2012)

I suspect the dangers of lpg escape have been mis-understood, the gas will pose the maximum danger if allowed to 'pool' in an enclosed space, generally in a motor accident there is a large space for the gas to disperse over, Petrol is a far more dangerous substance in the event of a crash, as it is slower to disperse to a safe level, and can soak into things, the gas will normally evaporate (unless in extremely low temperatures)


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## coolasluck (Sep 18, 2012)

Well off for me,but then it is easy to switch off on my hymer as i have an underslung gas tank,doesnt take 20 seconds to do.


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## Tbear (Sep 18, 2012)

Dezi said:


> Well I am surprised gentlemen. Two days ago “the turn it off” fraternity were very vocal on the rights & wrongs of it. We even had legislation printed.
> 
> So I asked a simple question “where exactly should “I turn it off” to comply with supposed legality, & in response.
> 
> ...



Hi Dezi,

I'm not surprised as then we would have to discuss the dangers of underslung tanks which are as exposed to damage as a petrol tank

Richard


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## baldybloke (Sep 18, 2012)

underslung lpg tanks may be in similar positions to petrol tanks (and sometimes in place of), but are made much stronger than any petrol tank, I used to run a landrover powered by lpg, this had 'torpedo tanks', underslung, either side of the car, these were far more exposed to damage, and indeed on one occasion actually held one side of the car off the ground whilst negotiating some rocks, had the tanks been made of the same material as a normal fuel tank then it would have been punctured, the only damage found was slight scratching and removal of a little paint.
lpg is feared due to lack of familiarity, Whilst petrol gets the 'familiarality breeds contempt' attitude


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## Mastodon (Sep 18, 2012)

baldybloke said:


> I suspect the dangers of lpg escape have been mis-understood, the gas will pose the maximum danger if allowed to 'pool' in an enclosed space, generally in a motor accident there is a large space for the gas to disperse over, Petrol is a far more dangerous substance in the event of a crash, as it is slower to disperse to a safe level, and can soak into things, the gas will normally evaporate (unless in extremely low temperatures)



Gas (or petrol) is most dangerous when mixed with the appropriate quantity of air. Thermobaric weapons (aka fuel/air bombs) use this principle to great effect. Here are some home made versions in action:
True Fuel Air Explosive in Slow Motion (By AnonymousUploads) - YouTube

'Petrol ....is slower to disperse' would this be because it is less volatile than LPG? Petrol soaks in? yep. So does L(liquified)PG.

Getting back to the point of this thread... is it safe to leave the gas on? Yes. As long as you don't crash or get hit by something, then it isn't. Is it a calculated risk? No. If anyone has enough information to do this calculation, please send me the lottery numbers for next week. Does anyone have a cast iron reason for taking this kind of risk? We'll see...


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## baldybloke (Sep 18, 2012)

personally I think the question gas on gas off is down to the individual system design/ installation. In my installation, I leave the gas bottle on most of the time, but run the fridge on 12v, this alleviates any concern for me when entering filling stations, and yes I have seen a tanker driver leaning against his tanker, and lighting a cigarette whilst I was fuelling an aircraft with over 6tons of aviation gasoline. I know it is not a good idea to have naked flames or sources of ignition near fuel, and the risks are sometimes overstated, but then due to the rules here there are not many filling station fires in the uk.


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## Mastodon (Sep 18, 2012)

baldybloke said:


> personally I think the question gas on gas off is down to the individual system design/ installation. In my installation, I leave the gas bottle on most of the time, but run the fridge on 12v, this alleviates any concern for me when entering filling stations, and yes I have seen a tanker driver leaning against his tanker, and lighting a cigarette whilst I was fuelling an aircraft with over 6tons of aviation gasoline. I know it is not a good idea to have naked flames or sources of ignition near fuel, and the risks are sometimes overstated, but then due to the rules here there are not many filling station fires in the uk.



No doubt your bowser had an earthing strap and you connected a bonding lead before you removed the filler cap (or connected the hose). You where probably wearing full cover overalls without any exposed metal parts too. I've never seen an aircraft refuelling fire except the time where a ground handler claimed that AVTUR (aviation turbine fuel aka expensive paraffin) didn't burn and proceded to light a spilt puddle. The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft... Critical word is RISK. Everyone can say "I've never had an accident" right up to the moment of impact. Fitting a Secumotion device (or similar) reduces the risk considerably.


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## baldybloke (Sep 18, 2012)

Correct Mastadon, and I very nearly had a heart attack when I realised (in disbelief) what was happening. As you say, a secumotion or similar reduces risk, it is therefore subject to the installation fitted.


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## runnach (Sep 18, 2012)

Interesting comments.

I often set off without shutting off the gas , a remiss moment on my part.

However 

If in the event of an accident a pipe should fracture, common sense suggests that risk of explosion is increased. Because one more explosive has been introduced to the equation.

Naturally a source of ignition is required , and hopefully fails to turn up to the party.

Surely common sense?

Channa


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## vwalan (Sep 18, 2012)

hi. bes do a multi purpose safety fitting .it shuts off the gas in excess flow situations . can be used to check for leaks and sort of gives a guoide to bottle contents .all for 12.98 . fit one and take the risk away . cat .number 12673 ..Plumbing Supplies | BES Gas & Plumbing Fittings


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## Tbear (Sep 18, 2012)

vwalan said:


> hi. bes do a multi purpose safety fitting .it shuts off the gas in excess flow situations . can be used to check for leaks and sort of gives a guoide to bottle contents .all for 12.98 . fit one and take the risk away . cat .number 12673 ..Plumbing Supplies | BES Gas & Plumbing Fittings



Hi Alan,

I got one last time you recommended them. It Leaks!:scared:

Richard


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## vwalan (Sep 18, 2012)

send it back . i have found bes to be very helpfull and a great company to buy from . 
if you dont they wont know you have a problem. i use them alot for my bits i use.


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## Tbear (Sep 18, 2012)

vwalan said:


> send it back . i have found bes to be very helpfull and a great company to buy from .
> if you dont they wont know you have a problem. i use them alot for my bits i use.



Bes are a good company. I keep meaning to mention it to them but I don't often contact them but will make a point of doing so in the near future.


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## vwalan (Sep 18, 2012)

do .i,m sure you will get a replacement . .have you had their new catalogue recently .
think it fits well in the m,home library .


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## mariesnowgoose (Sep 19, 2012)

The gas is always on in our van. Especially after we've eaten the 1kg heinz beans touted elsewhere on the site.


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## thegoodlookingbloke (Sep 19, 2012)

*Gas on*

Yes, always leave gas on, my 12v doesn't seem to run it anyway so it's a must.:ninja:


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## Canalsman (Sep 19, 2012)

basildog said:


> I will sleep soundly at night now without worrying about the ill informed safety advice from the weekend warrior brigade !



You really can be quite obnoxious ... 

Your very expensive and ostentatious vehicle may be deemed safe by the manufacturer, and that's fine.

However, those of us with more modest and elderly vehicles would be well advised to use common sense when dealing with potentially explosive products!


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## Deleted member 26362 (Sep 20, 2012)

Mastodon said:


> No doubt your bowser had an earthing strap and you connected a bonding lead before you removed the filler cap (or connected the hose). You where probably wearing full cover overalls without any exposed metal parts too. I've never seen an aircraft refuelling fire except the time where a ground handler claimed that AVTUR (aviation turbine fuel aka expensive paraffin) didn't burn and proceded to light a spilt puddle. The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft..



Would that have been in Detmold, W Germany 1974, if not, the same thing happened with us, we taught a local trainee that a lit match would go out if dropped into a bucket of Avtur.  However he showed his mates that it wold not ignite after spilling about 10 gallons on very hot concrete, I think he was more surprised than his mates when all hell broke loose. We changed the training course after that.  It was obviously a communication error and nothing to do with our training schedule.

Daiboy


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## vwalan (Sep 20, 2012)

think it s time to say stop there. 
would it not be a good idea if all motorhomes were to have an excess flow valve in line . 
all ages can have them . doesnt matter if they are on butane or propane they are available . 
lets not get into remarks being passed around . we all would like to at times but i,m sure we all dont really want a verbal fight . 
we can all have views , they arent all the same . 
but lets try to be friendly .


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## El Veterano (Sep 20, 2012)

Wind Dancer said:


> I was always told that I Must have my gas bottle closed whilst driving, for safety reasons of course.
> I didn't question it, and duly switched my fridge over and shut off the bottle every trip. (It always took me a couple of hours at the other end to remember to switch it back on though) :mad1::mad1:
> 
> Then I met someone who said he never turned his off as that was his only way to run his fridge.
> ...




leave your gas on by all means (at your risk) but NEVER ever run the fridge on gas while you are driving. A friend of mine had his catch fire while driving on the motorway in France. A passing motorist flagged him down as flames were coming out of the hole where the plastic vent used to be (melted away). Besides there is absolutely no point as the fridge will work quite happily on 12v (no chance of draining the leisure
battery as the power doesn't come from the battery - it comes from the vehicle electrics).
On a slightly different subject, I'm currently in Australia where I have been renting a small camper there on the East coast. The fridge in that camper ran soley on elecs, including when wild camping. It never once drained the leisure battery and it was the most efficient fridge I have ever known! No idea how it works but it gets my award for best system ever.

happy camping.


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## northernspirit2001 (Sep 20, 2012)

i always intended to switch gas off but always forgot (dur!) and never blew up, however i havent had a major RTA either to test the reasoning behind the gas off rule!


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## Bigpeetee (Sep 20, 2012)

baldybloke said:


> personally I think the question gas on gas off is down to the individual system design/ installation. In my installation, I leave the gas bottle on most of the time, but run the fridge on 12v, this alleviates any concern for me when entering filling stations, and yes I have seen a tanker driver leaning against his tanker, and lighting a cigarette whilst I was fuelling an aircraft with over 6tons of aviation gasoline. I know it is not a good idea to have naked flames or sources of ignition near fuel, and the risks are sometimes overstated, but then due to the rules here there are not many filling station fires in the uk.



A friend of mine, a PFA inspector at the time, had emptied out the fuel tank on his tiger cub aircraft. On inspection, he could see that despite his rigorous filtering of the fuel when refilling, there was a quantity of muck in the bottom of the tank.

Being a dedicated chap and not wanting to clog up his in-line fuel filter, he decided to use his vacuum cleaner to remove debris.

There was a bloody big bang and his vacuum cleaner exploded.

He'd forgotten that there were still fumes in the bottom of the tank and that a household cleaner lets the filtered air pass over and through the motor to cool it. The sparks on the commutator soon ignited the petrol air mixture!!

Only minor damage done to fabric of wing, but his wife wasn't happy with the vac being destroyed, still she got a new one.

And he was a Very intelligent Engineer by trade. Still, we can all have lapses every now and then.!!!

I'm always worried when joe public refills their petrol strimmer, usually overfilling/spilling on a hot 2 stroke, then proceeding to start straight away, while fuel drips off the thing.


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## oldish hippy (Sep 20, 2012)

so if install gas bottle next to fuse panel that should br alright just need to drill hole incabinet to access the drop out vent or remove a inch of the draught exclder on rear door got to rewire mine anyway it a bit of a mess but better than when igot it just got to get some 4mm cable ok that is well over rated for what need


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## Tony Lee (Sep 20, 2012)

> The fridge in that camper ran soley on elecs, including when wild camping. It never once drained the leisure battery and it was the most efficient fridge I have ever known! No idea how it works but it gets my award for best system ever.



Fairly likely to be a 12V compressor fridge..  Draw about 3 amps when running.


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## Tbear (Sep 20, 2012)

We we used the ferry it was written somewhere to turn gas off so as I felt it was part of the agreement for them to carry me I turned it off. Went up for some breakfast. You could not count the number of gas burners in the kitchen. Yes I know they are well away from fumes leaking from lorries on the cargo deck but who is to say those fumes will sink not rise.

Richard


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## shortcircuit (Sep 20, 2012)

To be pedantic, my last boarding pass with P&O requested gas be turned off in caravans with no reference to MHs


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## Firefox (Sep 20, 2012)

H&S has become a big industry and there are many instances of safety culture going completely over the top. An example is PAT (Portable appliance testing). Many firms have been duped into believing that PAT is a legal requirement by the health and saftey industry, and plenty of firms have set up offering the service at considerable cost. Some insurers even started insisting on it.

However the HSE itself has eventually acted to dispell some of these myths eg: Firms urged to pull the plug on £30m of wasted electrical safety tests

and http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.htm


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## hextal (Sep 20, 2012)

Not that it adds much, but I got my system ok'd by my insurer for leaving on in transit and got them to put it in writing.  I dare say that if something happened they'd try to back-peddal, but its a starting point.  Its a fairly standard underslung LPG tank and has a monocontrol CS valve connected to it.

As I understand it, most (if not all) underslung LPG tanks tend to have one-way fill valves off and excess flow valves, so (at least in theory) it could be detached from both hoses and still be safe (in theory), not sure i'd want to put it to the test though.

Obviously everyone has their own opinions as to what is safe and what isn't.  The problem is that there are so many variables, system failsafes, tank location, chassis/body strength, driving ability, etc, etc that there are no identical comparisons to be made.  I think it's also easy to get caught up in double standards with these things.  As an example, I wouldn't dream of driving without a seat-belt, or if my anti-lock brakes / airbags had faults.  But then i'm more than fine sitting on a bike on a motorway whereby my safety features comprise 'an ability to hold onto the bars and not get blown off'. 

Quite an informative video:-

BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion) Demonstration - How it Happens Training Video - YouTube


Hi everyone by the way.


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## Mastodon (Sep 20, 2012)

Daiboy said:


> Would that have been in Detmold, W Germany 1974, if not, the same thing happened with us, we taught a local trainee that a lit match would go out if dropped into a bucket of Avtur.  However he showed his mates that it wold not ignite after spilling about 10 gallons on very hot concrete, I think he was more surprised than his mates when all hell broke loose. We changed the training course after that.  It was obviously a communication error and nothing to do with our training schedule.
> 
> Daiboy




 ...and a yellow handbag


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