# Gallons per hour



## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 6, 2015)

Has anybody any idea how much fuel a Renault Master 2008 2.5 DCi diesel would use per hour on idle


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## st3v3 (Nov 6, 2015)

More than it will cost you to fit a solar panel. 

Plus, leaving an engine on idle doesn't do it any good.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 6, 2015)

No, I wouldn't recommend it either


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## eddyt (Nov 6, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> No, I wouldn't recommend it either




especially if its got a DPF fitted
i was once emptying a transit fuel tank of red. after syphoning as mutch as possible out
i let it tick over till it ran out and it took hours to empty


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 6, 2015)

eddyt said:


> especially if its got a DPF fitted
> i was once emptying a transit fuel tank of red. after syphoning as mutch as possible out
> i let it tick over till it ran out and it took hours to empty



 Cheers Eddy, ((it took hours to empty)) just what I thought,,,,,,,, nope, no DPF fitted, I have one on my works commercial vehicle, a Peugeot, and its a bloody nightmare, it stinks to high heaven cos I do a lot of short runs and idling, but it seems to be better now after it was into the dealers, The reason was asking was because I was parked up for 3 days and the batteries were a bit low, so I let it idle for about 25 mins and and they were fully charged up again with the B2B charger


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## eddyt (Nov 6, 2015)

Johnnygm7lsi said:


> Cheers Eddy, ((it took hours to empty)) just what I thought,,,,,,,, nope, no DPF fitted, I have one on my works commercial vehicle, a Peugeot, and its a bloody nightmare, it stinks to high heaven cos I do a lot of short runs and idling, but it seems to be better now after it was into the dealers, The reason was asking was because I was parked up for 3 days and the batteries were a bit low, so I let it idle for about 25 mins and and they were fully charged up again with the B2B charger



25 min will only use a mug full


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## Tezza33 (Nov 6, 2015)

In the South of France last Winter I used to let my engine run on tickover for 1 or 2hrs some nights to boost the battery power, I didn't need it every night just a couple of times a week but that doesn't hurt anything with my van, Fiat 2.8JTD


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## eddyt (Nov 7, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> In the South of France last Winter I used to let my engine run on tickover for 1 or 2hrs some nights to boost the battery power, I didn't need it every night just a couple of times a week but that doesn't hurt anything with my van, Fiat 2.8JTD



not sure what year they started to use DPF possibly around 2009


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## Tezza33 (Nov 7, 2015)

eddyt said:


> not sure what year they started to use DPF possibly around 2009


Mine is 2002 so certainly hasn't got one, it doesn't have a catalytic converter either so one of the best JTD's


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

Cheers for that Tezz, Eddy, when I was hummin n hawin over solar, gennys ect I thought 120 amp B2B charger VS an Honda 2KW genny with 8Amps was a no brainer, works without sun, works while driving and you don`t need to got out of the van to start it, but often wondered what the diesel consumption was, but nothing to worry about


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## Tezza33 (Nov 7, 2015)

You could run a lot of hours for the price of a generator which also uses fuel to run after you have purchased it, that tickover gets on your nerves though to be honest


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## oppy (Nov 7, 2015)

Wots a DPV?


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## eddyt (Nov 7, 2015)

Johnnygm7lsi said:


> Cheers for that Tezz, Eddy, when I was hummin n hawin over solar, gennys ect I thought 120 amp B2B charger VS an Honda 2KW genny with 8Amps was a no brainer, works without sun, works while driving and you don`t need to got out of the van to start it, but often wondered what the diesel consumption was, but nothing to worry about



its easy to check fill up to brim at morrisons let your lass go for the shopping for half hour you wait in van 
watching telly on tickover. refill with 5 litre can and see how much it takes.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

oppy said:


> Wots a DPV?



Its diesel particle filter oppy, part of the exhaust system on new vehicles, for emission controls


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

eddyt said:


> its easy to check fill up to brim at morrisons let your lass go for the shopping for half hour you wait in van
> watching telly on tickover. refill with 5 litre can and see how much it takes.



LOL, it would run dry the time it takes her to do a shopping


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## Deleted member 967 (Nov 7, 2015)

Having only a 55amp alternator and a 40amp B2B I have at times run the engine on a fast idle to boost the batteries in December and January in southern Spain for up to an hour while wildparking.   Yes, I do have solar, 2 x 130w panels but they do not match our consumption, if standing for a few days without moving.   The rest of the year we have no problems.

Last winter we decided it was better once per week to head for an Aire, with hook-up and charge the batteries overnight.   This doubled up as a dump and water top up opportunity anyway, so not really a problem.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

John Thompson said:


> Having only a 55amp alternator and a 40amp B2B I have at times run the engine on a fast idle to boost the batteries in December and January in southern Spain for up to an hour while wildparking.   Yes, I do have solar, 2 x 130w panels but they do not match our consumption, if standing for a few days without moving.   The rest of the year we have no problems.
> 
> Last winter we decided it was better once per week to head for an Aire, with hook-up and charge the batteries overnight.   This doubled up as a dump and water top up opportunity anyway, so not really a problem.



With my Adria when driving at about 55mph in 6th gear its not that far above idle speed anyway, so I`m not unduly worried about it idling for for a while, and the van engine is a lot quieter on idle than a honda genny which was the other option, I was surprised when I found out the alternator was 150amps, I expected it to be around 50amps like yours. I might still fit a solar panel, but a couple of quid for fuel for the engine, if its even that, I don`t mind, but like you say, at an aire you can dump and top up.


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## n brown (Nov 7, 2015)

my daughter ran her cabin in Portugal with an old diesel BX for a year before electric was laid on. reckoned it was quieter and better on fuel than a genny.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

n brown said:


> my daughter ran her cabin in Portugal with an old diesel BX for a year before electric was laid on. reckoned it was quieter and better on fuel than a genny.



We had a genny on our last MH, used to store it in a box fitted to the bike rack, we were using it when wilding and the regulator went faulty, overvoltaged the charging unit in the van, first we knew of it was when the missus noticed smoke rising from her feet, it was a costly repair replacing the unit, genny was under warranty, but someone stole it off of the van in the car park in the North Berwick leisure centre, they might had done me a favour LOL


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## DavidB963 (Nov 7, 2015)

Johnnygm7lsi said:


> With my Adria when driving at about 55mph in 6th gear its not that far above idle speed anyway, so I`m not unduly worried about it idling for for a while, and the van engine is a lot quieter on idle than a honda genny which was the other option, I was surprised when I found out the alternator was 150amps, I expected it to be around 50amps like yours. I might still fit a solar panel, but a couple of quid for fuel for the engine, if its even that, I don`t mind, but like you say, at an aire you can dump and top up.



Offer is still open to come and see my Solar set up


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

DavidB963 said:


> Offer is still open to come and see my Solar set up



Cheers,,I`ll get there yet David,


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## trevskoda (Nov 7, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> In the South of France last Winter I used to let my engine run on tickover for 1 or 2hrs some nights to boost the battery power, I didn't need it every night just a couple of times a week but that doesn't hurt anything with my van, Fiat 2.8JTD


Yes it will,you will glaze the bore and in turn it will burn oil over time,piston rings are ment to be under load to push them onto the cyl walls.


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## sparrks (Nov 7, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> Yes it will,you will glaze the bore and in turn it will burn oil over time,piston rings are ment to be under load to push them onto the cyl walls.



You should drive on the M27 or M25 then your engine will be on tickover for long periods


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## Tezza33 (Nov 7, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> Yes it will,you will glaze the bore and in turn it will burn oil over time,piston rings are ment to be under load to push them onto the cyl walls.



That must be why my 13yr old engine never uses any oil, doesn't smoke and never needs topping up between services, :sleep-040:


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## st3v3 (Nov 7, 2015)

sparrks said:


> You should drive on the M27 or M25 then your engine will be on tickover for long periods



It might be at tickover speed, but that isn't the problem - on the motorway it's still under load. At a standstill it is not, and that's the problem. Once every now and again won't be a big deal, but just not often/long periods.


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## Tbear (Nov 7, 2015)

The new particle filters where introduced for good reason. Please be aware of the fumes entering the van when stationary. I am not saying don't do it (unless you are next to me) just be aware that a windy day may be more appropriate.

Richard


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## trevskoda (Nov 7, 2015)

Well you had better tell that to ford top tec as he was at forestry hq explaning why the tractors were burning oil as they sat most of the day ticking over without cutting logs,i think he would know and engineering books say this to as the oil will not get to correct temp and in return glase the bore.


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## fifthwheel (Nov 7, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> Well you had better tell that to ford top tec as he was at forestry hq explaning why the tractors were burning oil as they sat most of the day ticking over without cutting logs,i think he would know and engineering books say this to as the oil will not get to correct temp and in return glase the bore.



A friend of mine bought a new Caterpillar machine in the sixties it was a four cylinder diesel without a turbo. It was on hire in wintertime, the driver had a lot of time on his hands and was ticking over just to keep the cab warm. In less than a year oil was running down the exhaust stack the bores had glazed, they had to glaze bust the cylinders, fit new rings and give it some hard work.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 7, 2015)

We are also talking about ticking over for 1 -2hrs probably 8 times over a 3 Month period and the engine is running normally at all other times, as usual we get the '_experts_' on here telling us we are wrong to do something we know is OK but I *am* qualified enough to know there is no risk, I will carry on View attachment 35093


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## Byronic (Nov 7, 2015)

Although the engine may show as being at the correct operating temp. on the dashboard display, at idle speed the cylinder walls can be running cool, the large volume of air that a diesel engine needs for combustion is too cool to completely combust the fuel and condenses on the cylinder walls, which then over time runs past the rings drains into the sump and contaminates the oil. The low revs also keep cylinder pressures less than ideal in producing optimum combustion heat. 

These low temperatures also aid in carbon build up.

The less idling an IC engine does the better. Trev is basically correct, add me to the list of "experts" that Tezza 33 refers to LOL.


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## st3v3 (Nov 7, 2015)

And the temperature thing is the problem. Every diesel i've driven takes ages to warm up compared to similar petrols. Again, reason to not spend ages on idle. Even an up-to-temp engine will soon drop below on idle.


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## maingate (Nov 7, 2015)

So why do engines overheat when vehicles are stuck, idling in traffic jams?

Could it be that there is no cooling airflow through the radiator?

Maybe we don't need radiators at all.


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## trevskoda (Nov 7, 2015)

maingate said:


> So why do engines overheat when vehicles are stuck, idling in traffic jams?
> 
> Could it be that there is no cooling airflow through the radiator?
> 
> Maybe we don't need radiators at all.



no there is something wrong as d/engines will run cool,prob a fan or stat not working ,or semi blocked rad.


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## Glenn2926 (Nov 7, 2015)

To try to answer the question you did ask. I was told that an eleven litre diesel engined truck will burn two litres per hour on tick over. Hope this is of more use than most of the answers.


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## sparrks (Nov 7, 2015)

A couple of Gennys we installed (electrical distribution) for the new millenium burnt 30 gallons an hour, but a fair bit faster than tickover - I know it doesn't help but I thought I'd mention it anyway.


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## Johnnygm7lsi (Nov 7, 2015)

Thanks for that, I had forgotten what I asked LOL, mind you, it kept the "Technical Expert debaters" including myself, amused for a few hours with some interesting replies and having only had to run on idle for 25 mins once in 6 months, I`ll not worry unduly about it, or maybe just strap SWIMBO in and take her for a wee sightseeing spin for 25 min next time.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> no there is something wrong as d/engines will run cool,prob a fan or stat not working ,or semi blocked rad.



Probably correct on old Fordson tractors Trev.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> Probably correct on old Fordson tractors Trev.



My iveco will not lift the gauge after about half ticking over and i have felt the top hose and the stat was not open,also as it was used as a library bus ticking over a lot it uses oil and there is only 60000 on clock.
 And its a ferguson here, proper tool.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> So why do engines overheat when vehicles are stuck, idling in traffic jams?
> 
> Could it be that there is no cooling airflow through the radiator?
> 
> Maybe we don't need radiators at all.



You are missing an important detail. The coolant may be hotter than desirable, (why I mention "dashboard indication). But at the cylinder walls condensation of the unburnt fuel air mix formed at idle speeds keeps this all important localised area cooler than is ideal. Do you not think this feasible? Whether running an engine for just a few hours does much damage is beside the point. Running a diesel for any length of time is undesirable, just sometimes it's unavoidable.


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## eddyt (Nov 8, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> My iveco will not lift the gauge after about half ticking over and i have felt the top hose and the stat was not open,also as it was used as a library bus ticking over a lot it uses oil and there is only 60000 on clock.
> And its a ferguson here, proper tool.



ive got a 1966 david brown 880 tractor its parked outside next to the beach at newbiggin for last 10 year
its only used to launch and recover the boat. Before i got it the farmer used it as a stationary engine to drive
a corn crusher just a small one not needing much power. it still starts ou easily even after stood for 2 years.
does not smoke to mutch and does not use oil. i changed oil about 3 years ago. i would hate to imagine if the farmer
had ever changed the oil. Because he seemed the type who would do nowt. Allways skint and just looking for beer money.
im running round in a fiat doblo the temp. gauge never moves much off cold.


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## gipsy_jo (Nov 8, 2015)

Johnnygm7lsi said:


> LOL, it would run dry the time it takes her to do a shopping



Ha Ha Ha you made me chuckle right well :lol-053::lol-053:


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> You are missing an important detail. The coolant may be hotter than desirable, (why I mention "dashboard indication).* But at the cylinder walls condensation of the unburnt fuel air mix formed at idle speeds keeps this all important localised area cooler than is ideal*. Do you not think this feasible? Whether running an engine for just a few hours does much damage is beside the point. Running a diesel for any length of time is undesirable, just sometimes it's unavoidable.



May I remind the Honourable Member that this is the area where the fuel/air mix is ignited and burnt. I cannot see how this can be the coolest part of the engine.

I would also hazard a guess that any unburnt fuel would be more likely when the right foot is suddenly floored ..... especially on a badly maintained engine (filters etc.).

If you follow the series 'Ice Road Truckers' on Ch 5 you will notice that their bigrigs are very rarely switched off due to extreme cold. Maybe the Yanks build better engines than the Europeans and we have a lot to learn.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> May I remind the Honourable Member that this is the area where the fuel/air mix is ignited and burnt. I cannot see how this can be the coolest part of the engine.
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that any unburnt fuel would be more likely when the right foot is suddenly floored ..... especially on a badly maintained engine (filters etc.).
> 
> If you follow the series 'Ice Road Truckers' on Ch 5 you will notice that their bigrigs are very rarely switched off due to extreme cold. Maybe the Yanks build better engines than the Europeans and we have a lot to learn.



Fellow Honourable Member never did I say this is the coolest area in an engine. What I did say is that this "localised" area ie cylinder wall is cooler than desirable. Different parts of the engine are at greatly varying temperatures exhaust valves compared to inlet. All a temp. gauge gives you is a reading of the pressurised coolant somewhere on the engine usually the cylinder head, but I know that you know this.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

I see very little to worry about with extended idling once the engine is up to normal operating temperature. Most engine wear occurs from a cold startup.

Glazing of bores is largely a thing of the past due to better engine oils, metal technology and cylinder block manufacture. The old problem of 'wetstacking' has also disappeared it seems. This was when engine oil could finish up in the exhaust after prolonged tickover. Just as well because with Turbo engines it would act as a fuel and the engine could run away and destroy itself.

However, I must state that I have little faith in engine designers and wonder what booby traps they will come up with in the future.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

O ye of little faith in engine designers. Are you saying they should come to you for advice?:idea:


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## Fazerloz (Nov 8, 2015)

Ticking over all day at shows doesn't seem to bother Ice cream vans and the chillers are run off the main engine.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> Ticking over all day at shows doesn't seem to bother Ice cream vans and the chillers are run off the main engine.



Ask yourself what does that prove. The engines may last twice as long if they didn't idle all day long, who knows I don't. But will be less lasting to some extent. All built into the cost of the ice cream you buy is it not?


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

I humbly apologise for going off topic due to being constantly badgered by another member who has little confidence in my knowledge and abilities. 

For what it is worth, I would check the turbo hoses for splits, holes or just coming loose.

If they are OK then get a good mechanic to have eyes on it as we are just guessing from afar.

Good luck.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

My engine only has to last a day longer than me, not really bothered thenView attachment 35101


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## Fazerloz (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> Ask yourself what does that prove. The engines may last twice as long if they didn't idle all day long, who knows I don't. But will be less lasting to some extent. All built into the cost of the ice cream you buy is it not?



If it was known to cause problems to the ice cream men then they would have independent generators in. They can't afford to pay thousands of pounds to stand at shows and have any problems.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> I humbly apologise for going off topic due to being constantly badgered by another member who has little confidence in my knowledge and abilities.
> 
> For what it is worth, I would check the turbo hoses for splits, holes or just coming loose.
> 
> ...



I mistakenly thought I was on the 'Black smoke' thread when I wrote the above. 

It's true what they say ...... there is a thin line between madness and genius.

I was almost a genius. :sad:

So whatever thread this is, whoever wrote the first post and whatever it was about ........ yes, I agree. :rolleyes2:


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## st3v3 (Nov 8, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> Ticking over all day at shows doesn't seem to bother Ice cream vans and the chillers are run off the main engine.



Again, it might be at tickover speed, but the engine has a load. That's the difference.


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## Canalsman (Nov 8, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Again, it might be at tickover speed, but the engine has a load. That's the difference.



When charging batteries in a narrow boat, the advice is to tick over with it in gear _i.e._ the prop being driven. It's about placing a load on the engine.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

st3v3 said:


> Again, it might be at tickover speed, but the engine has a load. That's the difference.



Agree with that. I may stand corrected, but don't some ice cream vans have a built in generator the ones standing for long times at shows? The vendor just buzzing around street to street, probably just depends on his van engine for a chilling effect, not worth stop-starting a generator for a 5 minute halt.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> probably just depends on his van engine for a chilling effect,


Probably keeping the icecream cold in the cylinder walls :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> Probably keeping the icecream cold in the cylinder walls :lol-049::lol-049::lol-049::lol-049:



Hence........ Walls icecream.


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

This thread definitely needs to be put back on topic. 
In reply to the OP, I would guess fuel use for a 2.5D Renault, about 10 scoops of French Cream Walnut Whip per hour.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> Agree with that. I may stand corrected, but don't some ice cream vans have a built in generator the ones standing for long times at shows? The vendor just buzzing around street to street, probably just depends on his van engine for a chilling effect, not worth stop-starting a generator for a 5 minute halt.



No the same vans you see around the streets are the ones that work the shows.
When is a engine never under any load and just free running, you would have to remove all ancillaries. If someone starts a engine to charge batteries isn't that putting a load on the engine. If you turn on headlights you will hear the engine note change as the alternator loads the engine is this not the same.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> No the same vans you see around the streets are the ones that work the shows.
> When is a engine never under any load and just free running, you would have to remove all ancillaries. If someone starts a engine to charge batteries isn't that putting a load on the engine. If you turn on headlights you will hear the engine note change as the alternator loads the engine is this not the same.



The 350 cubic inch (over 6,000 cc) Chevy pickups I used to drive almost stalled when the A/C cut in.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> May I remind the Honourable Member that this is the area where the fuel/air mix is ignited and burnt. I cannot see how this can be the coolest part of the engine.
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that any unburnt fuel would be more likely when the right foot is suddenly floored ..... especially on a badly maintained engine (filters etc.).
> 
> If you follow the series 'Ice Road Truckers' on Ch 5 you will notice that their bigrigs are very rarely switched off due to extreme cold. Maybe the Yanks build better engines than the Europeans and we have a lot to learn.



Its the full charge of cold air cumeing into the cyl with a small amount of fuel that keeps the cyl cold,only when under 75% duty cycle and working will the engine and oils do there job,can all be read on the net.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> I see very little to worry about with extended idling once the engine is up to normal operating temperature. Most engine wear occurs from a cold startup.
> 
> Glazing of bores is largely a thing of the past due to better engine oils, metal technology and cylinder block manufacture. The old problem of 'wetstacking' has also disappeared it seems. This was when engine oil could finish up in the exhaust after prolonged tickover. Just as well because with Turbo engines it would act as a fuel and the engine could run away and destroy itself.
> 
> However, I must state that I have little faith in engine designers and wonder what booby traps they will come up with in the future.



The engine will not reach temp when at idle and i once seen a toyota hiace run on with blow by,mind you she had well over 300000 hard work doing paper deliverys,start stop driving.


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> Ticking over all day at shows doesn't seem to bother Ice cream vans and the chillers are run off the main engine.



I worked opisite a ice cream van centre mr softy and they were forever changing donkeys.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> ,can all be read on the net.


So can a lot of other scare tactics, I am a time served mechanic, I worked for a main dealer so had to go to college for 5yrs as well as working 4 days in the workshop, I worked as a developement engineer for Freight Rover and finished up in charge of the dept that put Rover V8 engines and Jaguar suspension, braking system and increasing the crossmember size to beef up the chassis on the Police/Prison Service vans so I have a lot of experience including testing 1994 Sherpa vans at 125MPH at MIRO near Nuneaton, I don't post advice about mechanical problems on here any more because it is full of 'google' experts, I don't need anybody including you to tell me how to look after my engine, it is a pity on forums like this that we don't have to register our qualifications before we give advice, I will continue not to offer help because 'google' is bigger than me, and if that comes across as being pi$$ed off with the comments then you are right for once


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## runnach (Nov 8, 2015)

maingate said:


> The 350 cubic inch (over 6,000 cc) Chevy pickups I used to drive almost stalled when the A/C cut in.



I smile Jim,when i was in the motor trade we were told that using aircon soaked 7 bhp from the engine. So if you are stationary and run the aircon you are putting load on the engine ?

On more modern vehicles the engine is running the aircon pump irrelevant of whether it is set to cool or heat
Channa


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

channa said:


> On more modern vehicles the engine is running the aircon pump irrelevant of whether it is set to cool or heat
> Channa


My van does the same MPG whether aircon is on or off, only difference is the noise on tickover (lets not go there)


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## slonger (Nov 8, 2015)

on my van the electrics turn off for the back when the engine is started which would be a pain sitting there with no power.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

slonger said:


> on my van the electrics turn off for the back when the engine is started which would be a pain sitting there with no power.


A lot of coachbuilt vans do that but funnily enough A class vans do not, I don't see the difference myself, apart from the cab area we are no different


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> Its the full charge of cold air cumeing into the cyl with a small amount of fuel that keeps the cyl cold,only when under 75% duty cycle and working will the engine and oils do there job,can all be read on the net.



You are probably right Trev ....... I have no experience of the old Fordson Tractors you have in Norn Ireland. :lol-049:


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> No the same vans you see around the streets are the ones that work the shows.
> When is a engine never under any load and just free running, you would have to remove all ancillaries. If someone starts a engine to charge batteries isn't that putting a load on the engine. If you turn on headlights you will hear the engine note change as the alternator loads the engine is this not the same.



A typical engine is some 70KW a headlight array maybe 140W. Do you see a large discrepancy here?  Lighting loads are bugger all. Even a starter motor which demands 2.5KW or so is not really a large load on the engine, it is on the battery but even then it is only momentarily. An alternator puts out around 1 KW. Hauling 3 tonnes is a large load try pushing it up  a modest slope of say 5%!!!


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> So can a lot of other scare tactics, I am a time served mechanic, I worked for a main dealer so had to go to college for 5yrs as well as working 4 days in the workshop, I worked as a developement engineer for Freight Rover and finished up in charge of the dept that put Rover V8 engines and Jaguar suspension, braking system and increasing the crossmember size to beef up the chassis on the Police/Prison Service vans so I have a lot of experience including testing 1994 Sherpa vans at 125MPH at MIRO near Nuneaton, I don't post advice about mechanical problems on here any more because it is full of 'google' experts, I don't need anybody including you to tell me how to look after my engine, it is a pity on forums like this that we don't have to register our qualifications before we give advice, I will continue not to offer help because 'google' is bigger than me, and if that comes across as being pi$$ed off with the comments then you are right for once



I spent 7 years at University, 40 years in the profession that it led to, and I'm always being corrected by all and sundry. And sometimes they are correct. No amount of training or time teaches you everything, always something new to learn or absorb.
On any particular aspect a quick careful search on google will arm the amateur enough to scare the pro. Doctors (GPs in particular) know this well enough these days, with their ever growing number of clued up patients. Just something we all have to live with.


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## maingate (Nov 8, 2015)

I spent 4 years in Borstal and 10 years in the Scrubs and nobody ever says a word against me. :mad1::mad1:

Maingate, the Mad Axeman.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> I spent 7 years at University, 40 years in the profession that it led to, and I'm always being corrected by all and sundry. And sometimes they are correct. No amount of training or time teaches you everything, always something new to learn or absorb.
> On any particular aspect a quick careful search on google will arm the amateur enough to scare the pro. Doctors (GPs in particular) know this well enough these days, with their ever growing number of clued up patients. Just something we all have to live with.


Which is why I thanked you earlier for a post contradicting me (or at least arguing the point) because you post a lot of sense and come across as a very knowledgable person as does Trevskoda and I wasn't having a go at him but how much can we take with all the experience we have when somebody quotes 'google', fair enough advise other people but you know as well as I do if you search the internet enough every argument can be discounted as wrong.
I have always said it doesn't matter how long you have been doing something and how much experience you have you can learn from anybody, but please just from experience not from misreading something on google, I *know* I am not hurting my engine or I would not be doing it


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## Byronic (Nov 8, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> Which is why I thanked you earlier for a post contradicting me (or at least arguing the point) because you post a lot of sense and come across as a very knowledgable person as does Trevskoda and I wasn't having a go at him but how much can we take with all the experience we have when somebody quotes 'google', fair enough advise other people but you know as well as I do if you search the internet enough every argument can be discounted as wrong.
> I have always said it doesn't matter how long you have been doing something and how much experience you have you can learn from anybody, but please just from experience not from misreading something on google, I *know* I am not hurting my engine or I would not be doing it



The thing is the particular bit of knowledge that Mr. Amateur gets from the internet or even a book, may be more  the correct answer than the expert/professional puts forward. You, the pro could be incorrect. If you think this not the case then your reasoned counter argument has to be put forward, if you have the time and the inclination that is. These threads would go on forever as both sides would require qualifying evidence and sources of such evidence. But ultimately I can't see any other way round the dilemma. To be honest I think just letting it go and getting on with something else works OK. A short memory is also advantageous!


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> So can a lot of other scare tactics, I am a time served mechanic, I worked for a main dealer so had to go to college for 5yrs as well as working 4 days in the workshop, I worked as a developement engineer for Freight Rover and finished up in charge of the dept that put Rover V8 engines and Jaguar suspension, braking system and increasing the crossmember size to beef up the chassis on the Police/Prison Service vans so I have a lot of experience including testing 1994 Sherpa vans at 125MPH at MIRO near Nuneaton, I don't post advice about mechanical problems on here any more because it is full of 'google' experts, I don't need anybody including you to tell me how to look after my engine, it is a pity on forums like this that we don't have to register our qualifications before we give advice, I will continue not to offer help because 'google' is bigger than me, and if that comes across as being pi$$ed off with the comments then you are right for once


I was refering to oil data on the net for folk who dont understand,at no time was i trying to brow beat you and if you thought i was i do apologise tezza.
I to have worked and still do with engines ,one thing i have noticed that engines running at idle all day tend to have bearings go on the main shaft in g/box as there is no oil splash from the lower layshaft,have you came across this .


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## trevskoda (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> The thing is the particular bit of knowledge that Mr. Amateur gets from the internet or even a book, may be more  the correct answer than the expert/professional puts forward. You, the pro could be incorrect. If you think this not the case then your reasoned counter argument has to be put forward, if you have the time and the inclination that is. These threads would go on forever as both sides would require qualifying evidence and sources of such evidence. But ultimately I can't see any other way round the dilemma. To be honest I think just letting it go and getting on with something else works OK. A short memory is also advantageous!



Correct ,now what were we talking about? i have forgotten ,old age.
Refearing to charging batts i would run the donky at about 1500 rpm if required without any panic but i would rather take here for a we run which would get the engine temp up faster and splash a bit of oil round the g/box.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 8, 2015)

Byronic said:


> A typical engine is some 70KW a headlight array maybe 140W. Do you see a large discrepancy here?  Lighting loads are bugger all. Even a starter motor which demands 2.5KW or so is not really a large load on the engine, it is on the battery but even then it is only momentarily. An alternator puts out around 1 KW. Hauling 3 tonnes is a large load try pushing it up  a modest slope of say 5%!!!



I thought we were discussing engines running under no load.  I was pointing out that just turning on the lights was some load. When does it stop been bugger all and then and becomes a load. Your alternator at 1kw will be a 70amp alternator which these days is only a mediocre size as many are over 100 amp. If someone runs their engine to charge their batteries putting a 1.2kw load on the engine, this allows 20% mechanical losses on the alternator. Is this classed as no load.
Why mention large loads and where does the 3 tonnes come into it.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 8, 2015)

trevskoda said:


> I was refering to oil data on the net for folk who dont understand,at no time was i trying to brow beat you and if you thought i was i do apologise tezza.
> I to have worked and still do with engines ,one thing i have noticed that engines running at idle all day tend to have bearings go on the main shaft in g/box as there is no oil splash from the lower layshaft,have you came across this .


No need to apologise Trev I respect your posts but I have not come across the problems you state because I only worked on road going vehicles apart from my time in Freight Rover Development, not my department but engines ran 24/7 in the background on test, I never heard of problems but it was a very secretive department to work in because you wouldn't want ford or sevel to hear of any tests or results, I worked exclusively with the Police/Prison Service and I signed something akin to the official secrets act, I understand what you and a few others are saying but I still insist it would not affect us under the circumstances mentioned


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2015)

Fazerloz said:


> I thought we were discussing engines running under no load.  I was pointing out that just turning on the lights was some load. When does it stop been bugger all and then and becomes a load. Your alternator at 1kw will be a 70amp alternator which these days is only a mediocre size as many are over 100 amp. If someone runs their engine to charge their batteries putting a 1.2kw load on the engine, this allows 20% mechanical losses on the alternator. Is this classed as no load.
> Why mention large loads and where does the 3 tonnes come into it.



Because the loads you have pointed out are negligible, the difference between 70A and 100A has little effect on an engine, neither output is significant, even allowing for the fact that at tickover an engine will not be outputting anything like its max. power, also at tickover speed an average vehicle alternator will never be outputting 1.2KW.

Large loads such as pulling the van itself will warm an engine up quickly which is good, climbing a  gentle incline even better, giving an engine a moderate blast will clean the carbon out. Which is why before an MOT is due, a blast down the motorway is the routine for many of us.


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## trevskoda (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes a good blast down the m/way works wonders,as for idling a small amount will do no harm as tezza states,
i my self have a small cosmo chinese 650w genny which will be put in the cargo hold just in case.
Handy we thing and when pluged in will charge starter batt first then srevice batt,at least if my starter batt goes down i can start the engine with a boost from it ,nothing worse that a dead donky stuck in the a-ce h--l of nowhere.


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## Fazerloz (Nov 9, 2015)

Byronic said:


> Because the loads you have pointed out are negligible, the difference between 70A and 100A has little effect on an engine, neither output is significant, even allowing for the fact that at tickover an engine will not be outputting anything like its max. power, also at tickover speed an average vehicle alternator will never be outputting 1.2KW.
> 
> Large loads such as pulling the van itself will warm an engine up quickly which is good, climbing a  gentle incline even better, giving an engine a moderate blast will clean the carbon out. Which is why before an MOT is due, a blast down the motorway is the routine for many of us.



I bow out to your obvious superior knowledge as I can`t compete with your 7years at university and 40 years in whatever industry. 
I always thought No Load = No Load. I am obviously wrong. :bow::bow::bow:


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## trevskoda (Nov 9, 2015)

Comming up to xmas guys and gals no nastyness. think we have all said what can be said cheers.


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2015)

Eh wha's all that about????

Personal info. that I never addressed to you, merely agreeing some points with another forum member. As far you're are concerned just regard it as 7 years learning how to mow the grass in the Uni. grounds, and 40 years actually doing it.
Mind you lesson learned I'll not be posting anything personal again in order to illustrate a point or show empathy.


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## CAL (Nov 9, 2015)

I let my van tick-over for quite long periods especially when in cold places. It keeps the leisure battery topped up, provides nice gentle heat and so far no negative points, I only use the night heater for a quick warm up in the morning. Don't believe it uses much fuel at all and the engine is quite quiet (2011 Ford Transit). The only thing I try to make sure it's on fairly level ground and rev it a little once in a while.


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## Siimplyloco (Nov 9, 2015)

*A little knowledge can be very dangerous*

I learnt as an apprentice that the most damage occurs on start-up when cold, as a proportion of the (necessary) excess fuel can remain unburnt and condense on the cylinder walls, thus diluting the oil film and causing premature wear. For this reason I have never allowed an engine to tick over after starting: I just start and go, without over-revving or labouring the engine. I have no problem, however, in letting the engine tick over for long periods when warm. 

I met a Lotus mechanic once who reckoned Colin Chapman would get in one of his cars straight of the production line, start it up and whizz off round the test track flat out. Those car engines didn't last long...

 I've met many folk who professed to be 'experts in their field' but all they knew was what they had learnt in their little field, and they were no use anywhere else as they mostly talked utter tosh. A person can have the same experience a thousand times, or  a thousand different experiences: I know which type  I would employ.
John


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## maingate (Nov 9, 2015)

Byronic said:


> Eh wha's all that about????
> 
> Personal info. that I never addressed to you, merely agreeing some points with another forum member. As far you're are concerned just regard it as 7 years learning how to mow the grass in the Uni. grounds, and 40 years actually doing it.
> Mind you lesson learned I'll not be posting anything personal again in order to illustrate a point or show empathy.



I know what you mean. 

I should never have mentioned I was an Axe murderer. I wonder if anyone will turn up at my next Meet?


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## Byronic (Nov 9, 2015)

maingate said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> I should never have mentioned I was an Axe murderer. I wonder if anyone will turn up at my next Meet?



 Your next Meet might be OK, don't know about your next Meat though.


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## runnach (Nov 9, 2015)

I have enjoyed reading the threads, and all of you seem to have a decent knowledge all taken note should I face a similar dilemma. The my cock is bigger than your cock does non of you or people reading any favours. 

Exchanges of opinion is healthy , how we learn. So hows about ditching the egos and posting re the subject possibly useful.

I have done it again, perhaps the bollocks to state what others are thinking

Channa


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## Deleted member 919 (Nov 9, 2015)

Don't know how much diesel, I thought by the title of the thread it was a question on how much Robmac and Tom could drink &#55357;&#56833;


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## trevskoda (Nov 9, 2015)

channa said:


> I have enjoyed reading the threads, and all of you seem to have a decent knowledge all taken note should I face a similar dilemma. The my cock is bigger than your cock does non of you or people reading any favours.
> 
> Exchanges of opinion is healthy , how we learn. So hows about ditching the egos and posting re the subject possibly useful.
> 
> ...



How the devil did we get onto roosters.?


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## Tbear (Nov 10, 2015)

I don't know but some of these threads make a lot more sense after a few Speckled Hens. 

Richard


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## CAL (Nov 10, 2015)

Tbear said:


> I don't know but some of these threads make a lot more sense after a few Speckled Hens.
> 
> Richard



A man after my own heart, Speckled Hen, golden nectar.


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## Tezza33 (Nov 10, 2015)

channa said:


> I have enjoyed reading the threads, and all of you seem to have a decent knowledge all taken note should I face a similar dilemma. The my cock is bigger than your cock does non of you or people reading any favours.
> 
> Exchanges of opinion is healthy , how we learn. So hows about ditching the egos and posting re the subject possibly useful.
> 
> ...


For me it shows why a few *qualified mechanics* don't post help anymore, I know I certainly will not offer help on here in the future, you are qualified in your field and nobody argues with you, I certainly wouldn't because I know you are right and there is a safety issue if we do not follow your advice, but why does everybody _(most_) seem to think they know more than somebody who has worked all his life in the motor trade because they read something somewhere, then for it to be described as my cock is bigger than yours just sums it up for me.


by the way, it isn't:mad2:



I will not post on this subject again so don't bother replying


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## runnach (Nov 11, 2015)

tezza33 said:


> For me it shows why a few *qualified mechanics* don't post help anymore, I know I certainly will not offer help on here in the future, you are qualified in your field and nobody argues with you, I certainly wouldn't because I know you are right and there is a safety issue if we do not follow your advice, but why does everybody _(most_) seem to think they know more than somebody who has worked all his life in the motor trade because they read something somewhere, then for it to be described as my cock is bigger than yours just sums it up for me.
> 
> 
> by the way, it isn't:mad2:
> ...



Well I am replying because I think it is necessary. I spent 23 years in the motor trade for what it is worth but not on the mechanical side for any time worth mentioning. I agree I can think of one person who is an excellent motor engineer who rarely posts nowadays. He has forgotten more than I will ever know. I will extend that further both yourself and others who have posted know far more than I ever will.

The internet is fraught with dodgy info, the irony is you need to have a reasonable knowledge to seperate the fact from fiction to start off with.

In my opinion anything to do with a motor vehicle evokes emotion hence my reference not a particular dig at anyone. As my old boss once said "you can insult a mans wife but never his car" very true. I dont know why but cars vans etc seem to evoke a ego thing everyone knows all about and and far more about the motor trade for example than I do or you ...despite 23 years in it in my case must have been asleep !!

In my case earlier this year I had a issue with a carver water heater , in the end rang the guru that runs arcbiz a specialist in them . cheeky I was blatantly picking his brains but sometimes you don't need to know the answers but where to find them, I told him that and was happy to share. The mans knowledge is second to none ...we were on th ephone over an hour just chatting re Truma regulators etc etc ..At the end of the conversation i knew more than at the beginning.

sort of to prove my point finally I tried but can't find it a clip of Jamie Oliver preparing a pomegranate at his restauarant 15 in London ..what happened is one of the kids prepared it quicker..Intrigued Jamie got him to show him ...his face dropped and words along the lines of ...just goes to show you running restaurants all theses years a kid walks in off the street and taught me something ...I love that and his humility. that was the point i was making learning is a constant process.

if i don't learn something tomorrow I have wasted my day, sometimes that is reading posts here so it is with sadness I learn people are reluctant to post 

Channa


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