# Fiat stop start



## barge1914 (Feb 21, 2020)

Has anyone figured how to turn off stop-start on Fiats new auto transmission vans?


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## SimonM (Feb 21, 2020)

I don’t have a Fiat with stop/start but it’s on my autoDSG VW and my question would be why do you want to turn it off? I don’t find it too intrusive in general.


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## Topmast (Feb 21, 2020)

I can’t help with a Fiat but on my Duster I have to turn it off manually before every trip.  I find it another useless gimmick that we don’t need.


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## The laird (Feb 21, 2020)

You may have to get it onto fiat diagnostics and get it disabled ( deactivate)
have you checked your manual that it’s not got a disable pissition?


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## Fisherman (Feb 21, 2020)

You have to switch it of with the button on the dash each time you start the engine. From what I am seeing online you cannot do this permanently.


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## trevskoda (Feb 21, 2020)

If it were mine it would be getting a rewire ,starters and rings esp are a big job when they wear out,VW tried this back in the seventies,and because of starter rings wearing out and folk keeping well clear on new sales it was dropped.
Just more cr-p in vans/cars we dont require like sat naves heated seats,auto dip h lamps and the loads of warning lights,yes and you are paying for it.


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## Canalsman (Feb 21, 2020)

The issue of starter motor life is something that has always concerned me regarding stop/start.

If I had such a vehicle I would wish to disable it permanently if possible, or disable it each time if necessary. 

Why build in a future repair bill?


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## Fisherman (Feb 21, 2020)

POI Admin said:


> The issue of starter motor life is something that has always concerned me regarding stop/start.
> 
> If I had such a vehicle I would wish to disable it permanently if possible, or disable it each time if necessary.
> 
> Why build in a future repair bill?



I have been driving vehicles with start stop for 6 years now.
Like yourself I was concerned but left it on and have never had a problem.
But more importantly my neighbour is a merc mechanic, and he has never seen a car with stop start requiring a repair to the starter motor.


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## Fisherman (Feb 21, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> If it were mine it would be getting a rewire ,starters and rings esp are a big job when they wear out,VW tried this back in the seventies,and because of starter rings wearing out and folk keeping well clear on new sales it was dropped.
> Just more cr-p in vans/cars we dont require like sat naves heated seats,auto dip h lamps and the loads of warning lights,yes and you are paying for it.



You missed out the leather steering wheel Trev.  
Yes possibly 1970s tech was not up to the mark.


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## trevskoda (Feb 21, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> I have been driving vehicles with start stop for 6 years now.
> Like yourself I was concerned but left it on and have never had a problem.
> But more importantly my neighbour is a merc mechanic, and he has never seen a car with stop start requiring a repair to the starter motor.


Its the flywheel ring gear that gets worn which requires a box of job,common fault with seventies v dubs.
The other thing is in extremley stop start towns it switches of once the battery gets down a we bit ,so why bother at all as it uses more energy to recharge the battery which in turn burns even more fuel ,all nonsense .


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## barge1914 (Feb 21, 2020)

SimonM said:


> I don’t have a Fiat with stop/start but it’s on my autoDSG VW and my question would be why do you want to turn it off? I don’t find it too intrusive in general.


Because we don’t travel far each day, so every minute of battery charging is valuable.


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## barge1914 (Feb 21, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> You have to switch it of with the button on the dash each time you start the engine. From what I am seeing online you cannot do this permanently.


Got a button on my Fiat car, but none on the Ducato.


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## in h (Feb 21, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Its the flywheel ring gear that gets worn which requires a box of job,common fault with seventies v dubs.
> The other thing is in extremley stop start towns it switches of once the battery gets down a we bit ,so why bother at all as it uses more energy to recharge the battery which in turn burns even more fuel ,all nonsense .


70s v dubs had inertia starters that used to chew the teeth off the flywheel rim. All modern engines have  pre-engaged starters that are put into mesh before the starter turns, so the don't damage the teeth


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## in h (Feb 21, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Because we don’t travel far each day, so every minute of battery charging is valuable.


In the best of days, an alternator typically had an output of 65 to 90A. Modern cars have smart alternators with outputs approaching 300A. They're designed to cope easily.


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## trevskoda (Feb 21, 2020)

in h said:


> 70s v dubs had inertia starters that used to chew the teeth off the flywheel rim. All modern engines have  pre-engaged starters that are put into mesh before the starter turns, so the don't damage the teeth


I know that,i do try and keep up with fashion.


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## RichardHelen262 (Feb 22, 2020)

Our car has the stop start but we have got into the habit now of pressing the disabled button as soon as we have started it


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Got a button on my Fiat car, but none on the Ducato.



I read this on another forum.
But as you know it only kicks in when the vehicle reaches a certain state, and normally this does not happen in short journeys. But I would have thought you would be able to turn it off.


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

I wish the starting handle was brought back,handy when setting the valve gear up.


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

I am just wondering whether under the new testing rules they might no longer be allowed to provide disabling of systems that were part of getting the Euro 6 classification? They now seem to have to leave the smart alternator function active so perhaps stop start is the same? Too many manufacturers were cheating the earlier tests.

I didn’t like stop start when I first came across it but soon got used to it.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Okta said:


> I am just wondering whether under the new testing rules they might no longer be allowed to provide disabling of systems that were part of getting the Euro 6 classification? They now seem to have to leave the smart alternator function active so perhaps stop start is the same? Too many manufacturers were cheating the earlier tests.
> 
> I didn’t like stop start when I first came across it but soon got used to it.


Fiat got euro 6 without it, or adblue


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## mistericeman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I wish the starting handle was brought back,handy when setting the valve gear up.



Not much fun on a diesel tho....


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Fiat got euro 6 without it, or adblue


Yes but that was when the manufacturers got away with cheating under the old tests. To keep the Euro 6 under the new tests Fiat now have AdBlue and smart alternators so perhaps stop start has been caught too. If they submit a vehicle for the new tests with fuel saving and emission control functions I believe they are expected to sell the vehicles in that condition too.


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## mistericeman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I wish the starting handle was brought back,handy when setting the valve gear up.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> I wish the starting handle was brought back,handy when setting the valve gear up.



Some morning I need a starting handle to get me going Trev.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Found this online

But the main question most *car* buyers have about new *start*-*stop* systems *is*: won't they wear out *my car's starter* motor? The answer *is* no. ... (1) The gear ratio from the *starter*-drive pinion to the flywheel ring gear *is* optimized to make the *starter's* motor turn more slowly.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Okta said:


> Yes but that was when the manufacturers got away with cheating under the old tests. To keep the Euro 6 under the new tests Fiat now have AdBlue and smart alternators so perhaps stop start has been caught too. If they submit a vehicle for the new tests with fuel saving and emission control functions I believe they are expected to sell the vehicles in that condition too.



Hi Okta the new Mercedes 6D models still have switches fitted so I doubt it.
I was inside one in January whilst having my own car serviced.
But I really don’t see why anyone wants to turn it off.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Does Stop Start actually save fuel?
Most people think the amount of *fuel* saved using a *start*-*stop* system is negligible, but in reality, that *fuel* burned while idling at a *stop* adds up quickly. A study by the Society of Automotive Engineers found that using *start*-*stop* can see a car's *fuel* economy improve by over eight percent in heavy traffic.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Does Auto Start Stop drain your battery?
*A*. *Stop-start* technology is increasingly common, generally works well and helps to keep down fuel consumption and emissions. ... In addition, in many *stop-start cars the battery* has *a* higher capacity (so it takes longer to *drain*) and *the* starter motor is made more robust to cope with *the* extra demand.9 Jun 2014

This is well worth a read.









						Myth-busting: Does stop-start damage your engine? | Practical Motoring
					

Plenty of people will tell you what they like and don’t like about stop-start systems. But, does stop-start damage your engine?




					practicalmotoring.com.au


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

This whole debate is similar to the air con debate.
I leave mine on all year round and get 55mpg from a merc c220 est.
In winter it stops my windows from forming condensation, and in summer it keeps me cool. Yet all the time in summer I see folk with their window open whilst driving and no doubt  their air con turned off. Well when doing this your drag coefficient will increase significantly. Your car is now acting like a parachute with air rushing to the rear window greatly increasing drag, and increasing your fuel consumption by as much as 20%. Air con uses about 2-3%. Also turning it off for extended periods damages your seals.


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## mistericeman (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> This whole debate is similar to the air con debate.
> I leave mine on all year round and get 55mpg from a merc c220 est.
> In winter it stops my windows from forming condensation, and in summer it keeps me cool. Yet all the time in summer I see folk with their window open whilst driving and no doubt  their air con turned off. Well when doing this your drag coefficient will increase significantly. Your car is now acting like a parachute with air rushing to the rear window greatly increasing drag, and increasing your fuel consumption by as much as 20%. Air con uses about 2-3%. Also turning it off for extended periods damages your seals.



I've been trying to explain this, one to customers for the last 25 years or so..... 

They still won't listen BUT complain about having to have their systems topped up each year.... 

Fairly painful for them now a lot of manufacturers have gone over to r 1234a.... 
Possibly one of the most expensive refrigerants manufactured.... 
Hey ho


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Let’s go even further back, electric windows.
All you got was they will be nothing but bother, the old wind up ones were better, you never got any problems with them. Well I had a Ford Fiesta and the bloody windows kept coming off the runner. I had to strip the door down to get to the wind up mechanism to put the glass back in place. In 30 years of cars with electric windows I have never had a bit of bother.


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

I have known for many years not to drive with the windows open. However, I did not know that it was bad for the seals to leave the air con off for long periods so thanks for that helpful advice.


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Fiat got euro 6 without it, or adblue


Another V Wagon in the outing.


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Let’s go even further back, electric windows.
> All you got was they will be nothing but bother, the old wind up ones were better, you never got any problems with them. Well I had a Ford Fiesta and the bloody windows kept coming off the runner. I had to strip the door down to get to the wind up mechanism to put the glass back in place. In 30 years of cars with electric windows I have never had a bit of bother.


That was a ford every one else got it right.


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Okta said:


> I have known for many years not to drive with the windows open. However, I did not know that it was bad for the seals to leave the air con off for long periods so thanks for that helpful advice.


Thats another daft thing air con,in Gb just wind the windie dun ,more money wasted on something not required,ok in california.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> That was a ford every one else got it right.



Just because you are across the Irish Sea does not stop me from coming over to carrick fergus with a screw driver in one hand and a hammer in the other Trev.


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> This whole debate is similar to the air con debate.
> I leave mine on all year round and get 55mpg from a merc c220 est.
> In winter it stops my windows from forming condensation, and in summer it keeps me cool. Yet all the time in summer I see folk with their window open whilst driving and no doubt  their air con turned off. Well when doing this your drag coefficient will increase significantly. Your car is now acting like a parachute with air rushing to the rear window greatly increasing drag, and increasing your fuel consumption by as much as 20%. Air con uses about 2-3%. Also turning it off for extended periods damages your seals.


The arguments I've had with people who insist that aircon uses 10% of the engines power - I say to them take a car at 100BHP the aircon would use 10HP put the same aircon in a 300BHP car then by their reckoning it would use 30HP yeah right!


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

sparrks said:


> The arguments I've had with people who insist that aircon uses 10% of the engines power - I say to them take a car at 100BHP the aircon would use 10HP put the same aircon in a 300BHP car then by their reckoning it would use 30HP yeah right!



We are a nation of luddites anytime something better is developed we view it with suspicion. I have a fiat Ducato without start stop, I wish I had it. why have an engine running for long periods in built up traffic.  There are limits as to when it kicks in and how long it will last to prevent any mechanical issues.


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## sparrks (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> We are a nation of luddites anytime. something better is developed we view it with suspicion. I have a fiat Ducato without start stop, I wish I had it. why have an engine running for long periods in built up traffic.  There are limits as to when it kicks in and how long it will last to prevent any mechanical issues.


Very true, I wish my Relay had it, although I would turn it off on frosty mornings waiting at the railway gates whilst the engine is heating up  rather than freeze to death.


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## Nabsim (Feb 22, 2020)

No idea on Fiat but on the Vauxhall stop/starts I have had you went into the computer settings via the infotainment system and turned it on or off as a default setting. Never bothered though you soon get used to it and it just works


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## Nabsim (Feb 22, 2020)

sparrks said:


> Very true, I wish my Relay had it, although I would turn it off on frosty mornings waiting at the railway gates whilst the engine is heating up  rather than freeze to death.


Mine wouldn’t turn off until engine was up to temp and battery had sufficient power


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## mark61 (Feb 22, 2020)

Air con on, window open. Living the life here   
Window 3/4 closed if raining and/or going over 60 MPH ish.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

sparrks said:


> Very true, I wish my Relay had it, although I would turn it off on frosty mornings waiting at the railway gates whilst the engine is heating up  rather than freeze to death.



It won’t come on unless the engine is already heated up.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

mark61 said:


> Air con on, window open. Living the life here
> Window 3/4 closed if raining and/or going over 60 MPH ish.



Mark why have your air con on whilst letting in warm air from outside.
Thats like opening all your windows in winter with your heating on in reverse.
You are increasing your drag, and your air con is using more fuel trying to lower the temperature inside your vehicle. And the noise reduction insulation in your vehicle is now wasted because things just got a whole lot noisier from outside.


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## mark61 (Feb 22, 2020)

I know, thats how I like it


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

mark61 said:


> I know, thats how I like it



Ah Well, so long as you are happy Mark, that’s all that matters.


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

I was on an air conditioned bus in Athens when a tourist opened one of the windows, he nearly got thrown off.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

Okta said:


> I was on an air conditioned bus in Athens when a tourist opened one of the windows, he nearly got thrown off.



Nearly, surprised he was not lynched


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Nearly, surprised he was not lynched


No rope and no luggage rack to fix it to.


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Just because you are across the Irish Sea does not stop me from coming over to carrick fergus with a screw driver in one hand and a hammer in the other Trev.


Good i could do with some DIY.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Good i could do with some DIY.



Not DIY, more DIE TREV


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> We are a nation of luddites anytime something better is developed we view it with suspicion. I have a fiat Ducato without start stop, I wish I had it. why have an engine running for long periods in built up traffic.  There are limits as to when it kicks in and how long it will last to prevent any mechanical issues.


Every time you restart an engine it takes a few seconds for the oil to get up,so in effect,it shortens engine life,keep her burning.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Every time you restart an engine it takes a few seconds for the oil to get up,so in effect,it shortens engine life,keep her burning.



Get back on your horse Trev Luddite


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> Not DIY, more DIE TREV


Every sat morning same blinkin noncence.


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## Fisherman (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> Every sat morning same blinkin noncence.
> View attachment 76820



You would be using a bow and arrow Trev, in case the gun might jam


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## trevskoda (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> You would be using a bow and arrow Trev, in case the gun might jam


Yes as i had to hand in Wolf Tones old pistol,well the police were coming round,again.


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## barge1914 (Feb 22, 2020)

Fisherman said:


> You have to switch it of with the button on the dash each time you start the engine. From what I am seeing online you cannot do this permanently.


Ahh. Found it at last. It’s lurking near the headlamp adjusters labelled A, I was looking for an S button like on my Fiat car.


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## in h (Feb 22, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Because we don’t travel far each day, so every minute of battery charging is valuable.


If you don't travel far, chances are the stop start won't be activated. But the answer is a b2b charger in any event.


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## Markd (Feb 22, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> If it were mine it would be getting a rewire ,starters and rings esp are a big job when they wear out,VW tried this back in the seventies,and because of starter rings wearing out and folk keeping well clear on new sales it was dropped.
> Just more cr-p in vans/cars we dont require like sat naves heated seats,auto dip h lamps and the loads of warning lights,yes and you are paying for it.


I think that the starter pinion and ring are permanently engaged?


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## barge1914 (Feb 22, 2020)

in h said:


> If you don't travel far, chances are the stop start won't be activated. But the answer is a b2b charger in any event.


Nah. It comes on at every pause once it’s warmed up. Actually I considered a B2B, but thought I’d see how it went on this first trip, (with 2 agms), surprisingly well so far, but if I stopped a few days I’d probably need the gene out.


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## Okta (Feb 22, 2020)

I think I have lost track somewhere but what has B2B to do with stop start?


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## Sharpie (Feb 23, 2020)

Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.

This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.

I very rarely leave it switched on except around town and e.g. queuing traffic in jams. And if the oil temperature is below 80C I turn it off. At least I have a button to do that. Never mind the hesitation if say waiting at a junction or roundabout. At least on mine you can override it by holding the car on the brakes, but put it into neutral and handbrake on as you should, the engine stops. Progress ?

Mos SS systems will also disable it until the engine coolant is up to temperature, but with modern engines that can be well before the oil is even warm. It's more to do with keeping the engine running at the right temperature and the heater still working. Leaving the oil temperature to look after itself (works best when hot).

Google e.g. "stop start bearing shell" to learn a little about how much development has been necessary to even get them to the point where they can cope with continuous town driving conditions without conking out within the warranty period.

As with DPFs.

If your driving is mostly the open road, no worries.


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## Bob L (Feb 23, 2020)

barge1914 said:


> Has anyone figured how to turn off stop-start on Fiats new auto transmission vans?


Button with an “A” next to fog light buttons. That’s on my new MH,manual.


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## Fisherman (Feb 23, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.
> 
> This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.
> 
> ...



Possibly your system is different from mine sharpie, but on Mercs it does not come on until your engine is fully heated, and I have never found any delay at junctions when pulling away. It won’t even come on if the temperature inside the car that is set has not been achieved. I n traffic jams it’s ineffective because it will only come on I think 5 times and it’s time limited.


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## Okta (Feb 23, 2020)

On my Audi the engine will restart if I slightly ease the pressure on the brake pedal, without fully releasing the brakes. This means that when the lights start to change or a gap in the traffic is approaching you can anticipate the opportunity and be ready for it.


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## in h (Feb 23, 2020)

Okta said:


> I think I have lost track somewhere but what has B2B to do with stop start?


Vehicles with stop start engines also use the alternator differently. They have what is laughingly called a "Smart Alternator". When the vehicle is decelerating, the alternator whacks out a huge current to help slow the vehicle, so in between times the engine battery is left less fully charged, lower voltage to leave space for that. This isn't a problem: the stop-stsrt batteries are built for this sort of treatment.
If the habitation battery is connected to the engine battery with a SCR or VDR, the hab battery suffers from this same helter skelter of voltage. Even if it doesn't damage the hab battery, it'll prevent it ever being properly charged.
So you need a B2B charger if you have a smart alternator.


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## trevskoda (Feb 23, 2020)

Markd said:


> I think that the starter pinion and ring are permanently engaged?


No its not,as not in oil bath and can you see a starter whizzing round at 4000rpm for miles.


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## trevskoda (Feb 23, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.
> 
> This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.
> 
> ...


So you are now wearing the clutch release bearing and diaphram out rather than the starter ring or starter ,so  g box out again.


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## Okta (Feb 23, 2020)

in h said:


> Vehicles with stop start engines also use the alternator differently. They have what is laughingly called a "Smart Alternator". When the vehicle is decelerating, the alternator whacks out a huge current to help slow the vehicle, so in between times the engine battery is left less fully charged, lower voltage to leave space for that. This isn't a problem: the stop-stsrt batteries are built for this sort of treatment.
> If the habitation battery is connected to the engine battery with a SCR or VDR, the hab battery suffers from this same helter skelter of voltage. Even if it doesn't damage the hab battery, it'll prevent it ever being properly charged.
> So you need a B2B charger if you have a smart alternator.


Thanks, I know about smart alternators I had one on my last motorhome but not stop start. I also have a b2b but I hadn’t linked the stop start to always having  a smart alternator.


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## in h (Feb 23, 2020)

trevskoda said:


> So you are now wearing the clutch release bearing and diaphram out rather than the starter ring or starter ,so  g box out again.


Stop start adds no wear to the clutch, though I doubt that many cars with a clutch are still sold. I assume most are automatic.


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## Okta (Feb 23, 2020)

Lots of automatics now have clutches including the DSG box that has 2.


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## in h (Feb 23, 2020)

Okta said:


> Lots of automatics now have clutches including the DSG box that has 2.


How would stop-start make a difference? And those clutches don't have release bearings anyway


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## Okta (Feb 23, 2020)

in h said:


> How would stop-start make a difference? And those clutches don't have release bearings anyway


I was just answering your point that most cars are now auto and that not many cars are sold with clutches. Others have suggested that stop start affects clutches though I know not all agree.


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## Sharpie (Mar 9, 2020)

Okta said:


> I was just answering your point that most cars are now auto and that not many cars are sold with clutches. Others have suggested that stop start affects clutches though I know not all agree.



I think that you are probably quite wrong about "most cars are now auto". Any evidence for that ? And even things that you might consider automatic are mostly robotised manual gearboxes with clutches (and release bearings), or the very nice VW-invented DSG  system, we have one in the family, basically two three-speed manual transmissions, two (oil bathed) clutches that are likely to last forever, and a very very very complex "mechatronic" unit to control everything. That requires a very expensive oil change, frequently to keep it working. Latterly they've been making 7 speed DSGs with dry clutches, but frankly they are not on a par with the original and I don't expect them to last.

No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.

Or you could have some sort of CVT thing, like I think Nissan and Subaru still make, like an old Daf rubber band job, or scooter, but with improved materials and steel chain/belts

A brother even had a mad, bad and dangerous ScoobyDo Forester that started at I think 280 Hp but got tweaked to nearer 350. All put through the standard CVT transmission. Amazing. However it died an early death, as you might imagine (actually three big smash ups, nobody else involved, insurers got fed up as did his wife, so it went. So as to long term durability I wouldn't know, but the Subaru engineering really impressed me.

So if Subaru would make campers I'd be first in line. A flat-four or flat-six diesel (they make these unique things), could be so special.



As for TrevSkoda's comment about me wearing out the clutch release bearing, I think that he has failed to understand how the stop=start works on VAG cars (a Seat in my case).

If I drive correctly, as I was taught, pull up at a junction or roundabout, apply handbrake, move (manual) gearbox into neutral, release clutch, then engine dies. Unless I have disabled the useless feature, it's second nature to push the button every time I twist the key to get started. I mean, that's why the disable buttons are provided, at least for now.

If instead I pull up at junction/roundabout, but instead of applying the handbrake properly, just stand on the brake pedal, keep dazzling the people behind me with the brake lights, slip into neutral, engine keeps running.

But this is a really poor way to drive, if e.g somebody shunted me from behind chances are my foot would come off the brake pedal and I'd then be shunted into the vehicle in front.

Engine is a lovely little 1.4 petrol that runs a massive turbocharger that boosts to an impressive level, at least 150 hp, much of the time half the engine is turned off, inlet valves on two cylinders don't open, there is maybe a litre or two of coolant so the block (not the oil) warms up PDQ. As soon as it is warm the stop-start switches on. I won't let it until the oil temperature is at least 80 C.

Never mind the crank and cam bearings, the turbo, which runs continuously at a massive boost, is running dry, no pressure, every stop-start. Amazing that we've got to 80,000 miles so far (but stop-start is automatically turned off, it's just an automatic reflex).

Will it get to 250,000 miles like the previous one ? well I doubt it, but it it is very very economical, goes like stink, weighs very little, handling is so much lighter and better.

But I do miss the snarl of my old VW GTi 1.8 and 2.0 16 valve engines. They were glorious, and also quite economical.


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## mark61 (Mar 9, 2020)

I think we are up to about 40% of new cars being auto, that's all types of auto's. Perhaps commercials will catch up in another 10 years.


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## colinm (Mar 9, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> or the very nice VW-invented DSG  system,



When did Borg Warner become part of VW?

That aside, the latest Suzi's have a interesting 'stop start' system, they have a electric motor which keeps the engine turning at tickover, they also have no 12v battery.


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## Nabsim (Mar 9, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> ....
> No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, *but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly*, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.
> .....



That’s a bit of a presumption in itself but you did add perhaps to mitigate it. Every vehicle I have ever owned has been automatic or semi auto except for motorcycles. I can assure you though that I did learn to drive properly and can certainly anticipate gear changes 

I have no problem at all with my left leg but seem to have misplaced my right one, the police back in the 70’s took exception to me driving manual cars on the road using a walking stick for the clutch and insurance company’s at that time ensured I wouldn’t fit hand controls. To drive a standard automatic (full auto with torque converter) after passing a standard automatic driving test I had to pay 25% more insurance than an ‘able bodied’ person did. That continued until the disability discrimination act came into force (was it late 90’s?).

This is meant to be a light hearted post but please don’t make any assumptions on someone’s driving abilities by the type of gearbox they use


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## Okta (Mar 9, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> I think that you are probably quite wrong about "most cars are now auto". Any evidence for that ? And even things that you might consider automatic are mostly robotised manual gearboxes with clutches (and release bearings), or the very nice VW-invented DSG  system, we have one in the family, basically two three-speed manual transmissions, two (oil bathed) clutches that are likely to last forever, and a very very very complex "mechatronic" unit to control everything. That requires a very expensive oil change, frequently to keep it working. Latterly they've been making 7 speed DSGs with dry clutches, but frankly they are not on a par with the original and I don't expect them to last.
> 
> No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.
> 
> ...


It wasn’t me that said “most cars are now auto” I was responding to that opinion expressed in an earlier posting by someone else.


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## harrow (Mar 9, 2020)

Nabsim said:


> That’s a bit of a presumption in itself but you did add perhaps to mitigate it. Every vehicle I have ever owned has been automatic or semi auto except for motorcycles. I can assure you though that I did learn to drive properly and can certainly anticipate gear changes
> 
> I have no problem at all with my left leg but seem to have misplaced my right one, the police back in the 70’s took exception to me driving manual cars on the road using a walking stick for the clutch and insurance company’s at that time ensured I wouldn’t fit hand controls. To drive a standard automatic (full auto with torque converter) after passing a standard automatic driving test I had to pay 25% more insurance than an ‘able bodied’ person did. That continued until the disability discrimination act came into force (was it late 90’s?).
> 
> This is meant to be a light hearted post but please don’t make any assumptions on someone’s driving abilities by the type of gearbox they use



Douglas Bader still did a good job !


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## Glass man (Mar 9, 2020)

My father's 1935 Rover had a version of this. If you stopped the warm engine for a short time you could start it my pushing a button that gave a single spark to start the engine. No starter  motor involved. 
It stopped with one cylinder read. 
Nothing new.


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## trevskoda (Mar 9, 2020)

Sharpie said:


> I think that you are probably quite wrong about "most cars are now auto". Any evidence for that ? And even things that you might consider automatic are mostly robotised manual gearboxes with clutches (and release bearings), or the very nice VW-invented DSG  system, we have one in the family, basically two three-speed manual transmissions, two (oil bathed) clutches that are likely to last forever, and a very very very complex "mechatronic" unit to control everything. That requires a very expensive oil change, frequently to keep it working. Latterly they've been making 7 speed DSGs with dry clutches, but frankly they are not on a par with the original and I don't expect them to last.
> 
> No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.
> 
> ...


Only 80 th,here my old car at 314.000 & i flogged the tubes out of it,boot to the board.


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