# knots



## n brown (Feb 15, 2013)

if you only learn one knot,this is the one.once mastered it is a failsafe,use it for washing lines,rope swings,tieing down,can be used to join ropes,as a lifeline,and tieing up.best of all,by turning the knot over and pushing back the loop you can always untie this knot,easily,even after towing a vehicle for miles,and with wet rope.take a little time to practise it,it'll serve you well !Google Image Result for http://www.leverknot.com/basic_use/Bowline-Knot.gif


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

I agree although my rabbit still goes round the tree the wrong way and never knows whether to go up or down the rabbit hole  :mad2::lol-053:

As a former rock climber, I can't live without a figure of 8, which I can do in my sleep and which I can use if I mess up the Bowline, by rethreading it if necessary around something, I'll try to find a link to explain better.


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## Seahorse (Feb 15, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I agree although my rabbit still goes round the tree the wrong way and never knows whether to go up or down the rabbit hole  :mad2::lol-053:
> 
> As a former rock climber, I can't live without a figure of 8, which I can do in my sleep and which I can use if I mess up the Bowline, by rethreading it if necessary around something, I'll try to find a link to explain better.



This is a great site for showing knots.  Animated Knots by Grog | How to Tie Knots | Fishing, Boating, Climbing, Scouting, Search and Rescue, Household, Decorative, Rope Care,


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 15, 2013)

n brown said:


> if you only learn one knot,this is the one.once mastered it is a failsafe,use it for washing lines,rope swings,tieing down,can be used to join ropes,as a lifeline,and tieing up.best of all,by turning the knot over and pushing back the loop you can always untie this knot,easily,even after towing a vehicle for miles,and with wet rope.take a little time to practise it,it'll serve you well !Google Image Result for http://www.leverknot.com/basic_use/Bowline-Knot.gif



Learnt in the Scouts 50 yrs a go, been in regular use since!!!!

Round turn and two half hitches, clove hitch and timber hitch are other useful ones


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## mark61 (Feb 15, 2013)

Another handy one


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

Bigpeetee said:


> Learnt in the Scouts 50 yrs a go, been in regular use since!!!!
> 
> Round turn and two half hitches, clove hitch and timber hitch are other useful ones



Clove hitch is very useful as it's easy to adjust to reduce / add slack.

Also useful is an Italian hitch which I've used on a safety line when lowering others on climbs / abseils instead of using a belay device or figure of 8 abseil device. Is that the same as a Timber hitch?

The advantage of these 2 hitches is that if you get them wrong, they simply don't work and fall apart so no risk of them failing at a crucial moment.

[sighs, all this talk of knots is reminding me of my climbing days, happy days]


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## outtolunch (Feb 15, 2013)

tywraps rule 





I'll get me coat


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

outtolunch said:


> tywraps rule
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tywraps??? what's them?


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## Firefox (Feb 15, 2013)

Aka cable ties


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

Firefox said:


> Aka cable ties



Aha! These southerners don't half talk funny sometimes


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## Firefox (Feb 15, 2013)

They do... I still haven't quite worked it all out after 40 years! :dog: I think tywraps is a yankee corruption though. Not 100% on that :juggle:


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## lamby (Feb 15, 2013)

mark61 said:


> Another handy one
> 
> View attachment 11673



And probably the last knot for some


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 15, 2013)

Thai Wrap??  Green curry in a pancake??

Similar to Korean rap or GANGNAM STYLE 

Think I'd better watch out for the noose mob


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## outtolunch (Feb 15, 2013)

Firefox said:


> They do... I still haven't quite worked it all out after 40 years! :dog: I think tywraps is a yankee corruption though. Not 100% on that :juggle:



brand name of the original cable ties I believe and what I was brought up on in the chemical industry, these had a stainless insert to lock them instead of these new fangled all plastic jobs you get nowadays


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## n brown (Feb 15, 2013)

another handy one is the dolly,or lorry knot,great for pulling rope tight,and can be doubled and tripled to act like a pulley system. also the constrictor can be used  as a jubilee clip if tour string is strong enough. mustn't forget the zeppelin knot, specially designed for tying up blimps, i hope marie never learns that one eh, morgan?


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## edina (Feb 15, 2013)

Wonder why nobodiy has mentioned the sheep shank?


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## oldish hippy (Feb 15, 2013)

edina said:


> Wonder why nobodiy has mentioned the sheep shank?



did not want to excite mtm lol


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## grumpyengraver (Feb 15, 2013)

mark61 said:


> Another handy one
> 
> View attachment 11673




Sadly not used these days!!


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 15, 2013)

grumpyengraver said:


> Sadly not used these days!!



Except in Saudi


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## Mastodon (Feb 15, 2013)

Despite learning it decades ago, i have never had a need to use a sheep shank. Knots I do use regularly are bowline, fig 8, clove hitch and constrictor knot though mostly I use a round turn and 2 half hitches... Confused? "If you can't tie knots, tie lots"


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## Tony F (Feb 15, 2013)

*My first knot*



n brown said:


> if you only learn one knot,this is the one.once mastered it is a failsafe,use it for washing lines,rope swings,tieing down,can be used to join ropes,as a lifeline,and tieing up.best of all,by turning the knot over and pushing back the loop you can always untie this knot,easily,even after towing a vehicle for miles,and with wet rope.take a little time to practise it,it'll serve you well !Google Image Result for http://www.leverknot.com/basic_use/Bowline-Knot.gif



The first knot I was taught in the sea scouts 60 years ago was the reef knot so called because it was used by mariners in the days of the
sailing ships when the crew were obliged to climb aloft to reef the sails also known as furling.As can be imagined it had to be a substantial
knot but easy to tie and untie when working aloft in rough weather. Not so good old days eh


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## n brown (Feb 15, 2013)

one i learnt wotking on looms was for broken warps,even if there was only 2-3mm showing,you could fashion a simple slip knot,put it round the end and pull tight,this ended up like a bowline and rejoined the warp[ or was it weft ?]


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## Gemani2 (Feb 15, 2013)

*Knots*

Been  a sailor for over 10 years and could never get my knots right...which is why I've bought a campervan and selling the boat ...if you see any fenders floating down the Bristol Channel  they are  mine!


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## Mastodon (Feb 15, 2013)

I was a sea scout until my tent sank


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

[Thinking out loud...]

I must learn how to do the Monkey Fist knot, to make dog toys out of my old climbing rope - pet shops charge about a fiver for one of those, another way to earn a living when I go full time in the van...


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## scampa (Feb 15, 2013)

Tony F said:


> The first knot I was taught in the sea scouts 60 years ago was the reef knot so called because it was used by mariners in the days of the
> sailing ships when the crew were obliged to climb aloft to reef the sails also known as furling.As can be imagined it had to be a substantial
> knot but easy to tie and untie when working aloft in rough weather. Not so good old days eh



The reef knot is a great general purpose knot, but it was actually banned from use in UK fire brigades (since sometime in the 1990's, I think). Apparently one was being used in a critical situation when it failed and slipped open. Most of us suspected that it must have been tied wrongly, or in the wrong type of line (rope).

We replaced it with the sheet-bend, or double sheet-bend, which are also very secure and simple to tie.

BTW, I was also told that it was illegal to actually tie a proper hangmans' noose in the UK, though to be honest, we didn't very often need one!


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

scampa said:


> The reef knot is a great general purpose knot, but it was actually banned from use in UK fire brigades (since sometime in the 1990's, I think). Apparently one was being used in a critical situation when it failed and slipped open. Most of us suspected that it must have been tied wrongly, or in the wrong type of line (rope).
> 
> We replaced it with the sheet-bend, or double sheet-bend, which are also very secure and simple to tie.
> 
> BTW, I was also told that it was illegal to actually tie a proper hangmans' noose in the UK, though to be honest, we didn't very often need one!



I've known reef knots to slip and work loose. In climbing, it is good practice to use a simple noose knot known as a half fisherman's knot (or amongst climbers as a Stopper knot) with the tail (dead) end of the rope with a fig of 8 for tying onto a harness. 

A full fisherman's knot (2 half fisherman's using 2 different ends of rope so that they have an opposing pull towards each other) is a good safe way of joining ropes together.

But this is getting technical now :scared:

Btw, if we're all having a little brag about our knotting experience, I had the Knotters badge in Guides and won a Regional knotting competition


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## scampa (Feb 15, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I've known reef knots to slip and work loose.



Was that in synthetic rope (nylon/terylene etc), or was it a natural fibre? The reason that we were surprised was that we'd used it for many years before the ban, with no slippage problems.





whitevanwoman said:


> Btw, if we're all having a little brag about our knotting experience, I had the Knotters badge in Guides and won a Regional knotting competition



Well I don't mean to brag, but I can get completely tongue-tied without using my hands at all .... does that count??  I don't have any badges though!


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

It was an old (retired) climbing rope, so nylon. It wasn't whilst climbing, it was being used to tie up a load on a roof rack. The direction of pull is important, if it is a straight 180 deg pull both ways it should be ok, but like a fig 8, if there is a sideways pull on it, it weakens the knot. Can't remember exactly but I think the pull on a fig 8 knot should not be more than 45 degs. Thinking about it, climbing rope is dynamic so that probably doesn't help as the stretch would mean that the knot wouldn't tighten on itself under load as well as static rope. The fire brigade probably used static rope, I guess. 

Hemp should be stronger, more friction. Edit : I mean a knot in a hemp rope should be stronger, not that the hemp rope itself would be stronger.


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## oldish hippy (Feb 15, 2013)

Well ibeen told to get knotted on few times does that count toward my boy scout knot badge


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

oldish hippy said:


> Well ibeen told to get knotted on few times does that count toward my boy scout knot badge



 You sure they said get knotted, and not get knitting?


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## sean rua (Feb 16, 2013)

Just nipped on to thank N Brown and all who contributed to this thread, as I find the subject useful and interesting.

Before I dash, I'd like to add a few comments:

According to one of my my son-in -laws, the best loop is no longer the bowline but rather the *Alpine Butterfly.*
 He does mountaineering, so i thought I'd better learn the easy version of it.
I can make it by wrapping around my hand without bother, though my personal view is that it's bit over the top for everyday use.

Similarly, for joining two ropes ( any sizes) I believe in *the Zeppelin* ( other names, but I forgot them). A nephew of mine - again a climber - says no, we should use a double sheepbend, but that's one I find too difficult myself.

Finally, I mostly use the old slippery,* highwayman's knot* for almost everything . Obviously, for health and safety reasons I won't recommend it on here, but the way I do it is much like how we tie up a horse.

Whatever you do, enjoy it and I wish ye all the best!

sean rua.


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 16, 2013)

sean rua said:


> Just nipped on to thank N Brown and all who contributed to this thread, as I find the subject useful and interesting.
> 
> Before I dash, I'd like to add a few comments:
> 
> ...



The Alpine butterfly is used alot in climbing,  particularly useful for a makeshift harness in emergency. I've never been able to do it without being shown or having a book in front of me though, so I always just used to carry an extra couple of slings (tape loops) and karabiners for the same purpose. 

I think the double sheepbend might be the same as the fisherman's knot which I was taught to use, not sure, will look it up later. But my climbing instructor training was done in the 90s and things change so perhaps I'm now out of date.

Never come across the Zepellin, I'll look that one up too. 

Highwayman's knot to tie up your horse?! Yeah right, more like tying up your enemies!!  :raofl:

I used to ride (a stubborn git of a 12hh Welsh Mountain pony) and always used a quick release knot to tie to a wall ring for grooming etc, not sure what it's called but it was a simple loop through a loop if I remember rightly (we are talking 30 odd years ago now!) with a tail which if pulled just released the loop. 

Talking of a loop through a loop, a daisy chain is a useful way to store a rope (unless it is to be used as a safety line of some sort in which case it should be stored unknotted and out of UV exposure) to stop it ending up like spaghetti, and if not done too tightly it can be quickly undone by simply pulling the end tail (unless you've fed the tail through the final loop to stop it coming undone).  This is actually the basic crochet stitch if any of you fellas ever fancy having a go at making yourself a crocheted hanging plant holder or such like.


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## scampa (Feb 16, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I think the double *sheepbend* might be the same as the fisherman's knot which I was taught to use, not sure, will look it up later.



I must confess that I thought you and Sean had made a mistake with the name "sheep-bend". The original (and proper ) name is "SHEET-bend" and comes from the days of sailing ships (sheets/sails). There is a single and a double version of it.
It's also useful for tying bed-sheets together if you need to escape from an upper storey window (for whatever reason!).

After a quick check on the internet though, it seems that a lot of people, and even some modern mountain guide books, now refer to it as a "sheep-bend".  Maybe one of the guide book writers was hard of hearing, and has passed the term down to a new generation of students?

As far as I'm concerned, a sheep-bend is something you learn in a Welsh aerobics class! 

BTW, they are not the same as a fishermans knot (nor a fishermans bend), but there are so many knots, bends and hitches out there that it's easy to get tangled up with them!


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## Deadsfo (Feb 16, 2013)

edina said:


> Wonder why nobodiy has mentioned the sheep shank?



was'nt Morgan Freeman and Tim Robbins in that,terrible jail that,loved it where he crawls through the sewer,reminded me of a camp site I was on once.


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## n brown (Feb 16, 2013)

this may sound barmy,but i could quite happily sit for quite some time with a nice bit of 3 or 4 strand rope learning knots and splicing,braiding,turks heads,monkey fists.very therapeutic,satisfying and cheap.a pleasant way of passing a few hours on a beach !


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 16, 2013)

n brown said:


> this may sound barmy,but i could quite happily sit for quite some time with a nice bit of 3 or 4 strand rope learning knots and splicing,braiding,turks heads,monkey fists.very therapeutic,satisfying and cheap.a pleasant way of passing a few hours on a beach !



:ditto: In fact, I've just spent the past 20 mins sitting in the cold dark van studying my knot book by torchlight, looking at the Zeppelin and Sheepbend and various others 

When I worked as an outdoor instructor, to keep some of the youngsters occupied whilst waiting to climb, I would give them each a 3 foot length of rope and get them to practice a couple of basic knots, usually the fig 8 and half fishermans (stopper knot) so that they could tie themselves on, it did their confidence the world of good to be able to do it themselves (with my eagle eye watchiing them of course). I still have a couple of short lengths knocking around in the van and although I haven't played with them for ages, its a good way to while away the time if waiting around for something. 

It appears the Sheepbend is used to shorten a length of rope - so that's something I've learned today. Never came across it whilst climbing though. 

With regards to names, what I was taught and have always known as an Italian hitch is called a Rolling hitch in my knot book.

I'll have a look at my knot book again tomorrow (just come in and locked up for the night now) but I'm pretty sure that a Sheet bend and a Sheep bend are different. I'll bet my freezer full of value ready meals on it if you like  

I'm the same with maps, I can sit for hours looking at maps, especially if I have an old map and a new map of the same area to compare the differences.


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## scampa (Feb 16, 2013)

Please don't take this the wrong way WVW, but I think you need a different knot book....




whitevanwoman said:


> It appears the Sheepbend is used to shorten a length of rope - so that's something I've learned today. Never came across it whilst climbing though.



The main use of a Sheetbend (which I still think is the original name for your Sheepbend!) is to join two lines of equal or unequal thickness. It would be a very cumbersome way of shortening a line (except by just a couple of inches) because you would need to pull the whole length of excess line through the bight. The traditional knot for shortening a line is the *Sheepshank*.



whitevanwoman said:


> With regards to names, what I was taught and have always known as an Italian hitch is called a Rolling hitch in my knot book.



The Italian Hitch is a completely different knot than the Rolling Hitch, and is used for a completely different purpose. The Italian Hitch is designed to let the line run through it when in use, possibly with a climber dangling from one end! Rolling Hitches are used to anchor a line in a fixed position, with either a static line-pull to the left or to the right (or up or down), depending on how it's tied.



whitevanwoman said:


> I'll have a look at my knot book again tomorrow (just come in and locked up for the night now) but I'm pretty sure that a Sheet bend and a Sheep bend are different. I'll bet my freezer full of value ready meals on it if you like



I'll accept that bet, but let's leave it as a "friendly" wager with no steaks (oops, "stakes", sorry!).



whitevanwoman said:


> I'm the same with maps, I can sit for hours looking at maps, especially if I have an old map and a new map of the same area to compare the differences.



:ditto:

Please remember that I'm not trying to find fault with your knot-tying, just the info in that book that you have! Different groups may have different names for the same knot. The important thing is that you can tie the right kind of knot for the particular purpose, regardless of what name you give it!  

Unlike you, our main use of knots and lines wasn't for climbing, as we were very thoughtfully provided with ladders for that!  (although in later years, with working at heights regs etc, rope-rescues and abseiling etc had a much bigger role in our everyday lives!).


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 16, 2013)

Lol, Scampa, no offense taken whatsoever, in fact I'm giggling here at how very nicely and carefully you wrote that post...   (thank you  :bow

but if I wasn't so tired (been busy making a new bed to go sideways instead of lengthwise in the van today), I'd be sorely tempted to go and get my knot book and check. 

It's quite possible that I've got me knots in a twist  

or that its just simply a cr@p book (we poor people have to make do with cheap rubbish, you know 

I shall however double check in the Mountain Leaders Bible, Mountain Craft and Leadership by Eric Langmuir, whilst I'm in the bath :dnd:

and I'll get the knot book out of the van tomorrow and compare with Langmuir - there's definitely no arguing with Langmuir, he wrote the :rulez: at least as far as the Mountain Leader Training Board is concerned.

Actually, I don't mind losing the bet at all, I could do with defrosting the freezer :raofl:


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## Mastodon (Feb 16, 2013)

Sheet bend - join 2 ropes of differing thickness. Sheep shank - shorten a rope without cutting it. Double Munter Friction Hitch - join 2 dodgy females together.  (66.6% of this is true...)


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 16, 2013)

Langmuir only mentions a "Double Sheet Bend" and a couple of other most common knots already mentioned (bowline, fig 8, double fishermans etc) - see photo







I'll have a look tomorrow and see what Lofty Wiseman says about knots - he's in the van too. What Lofty doesn't know isn't worth knowing 


Here's quite a good free pdf download of some common knots used in climbing, produced by the British Mountaineering Council
Knots booklet


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## sean rua (Feb 17, 2013)

Please don't be swayed by the names I call these things, as I'm only guessing at what folk have said to me. :lol-053:

I don't really know what they're called properly.

What my nephew uses to make his "loops" ( continuous circle of rope about five foot long) is not what i said but a "*double fisherman's bend"*. :scared:

For me, I use the Zepelin or, if I'm lazy and it's not so critical, the *double overhand*. I'm told they use that for tying on at *bungee jumping*, so it can't be as bad as its reputation.

WVW, yes, what I was calling the "Highwayman's" is probably the same sort of thing you used for you're pony: just pull the bittar tail and it releases. The old "*slippery knot*". 

I should have added that I use the "*Timber hitch*" in so many situations where i probably shouldn't, and of course, the old faithful: the " *trucker's hitch*".

Boaters and mountaineers will turn their nose up, but there ya go! 

There are a couple of others that I have no idea what they're called, but they can be used for hauling up two scaffold planks or four putlogs  ninety foot above your head. As you're the one standing under and pulling the rope, be it on your own head if you tie it wrong!

As we're in Lent now and I'm off the drink, I won't tell you anything about my dog's name, or whether I'm leaving ADAC, or whether I have a bad back, or anything like that, so
happy bondage, ya *****  ***** ****** all !! :lol-049::rolleyes2::wacko::goodluck: 


sean rua


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## jamesmarshall (Feb 17, 2013)

edina said:


> Wonder why nobodiy has mentioned the sheep shank?



Is that the film about an American prison starring Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman?


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## northernspirit2001 (Feb 21, 2013)

whitevanwoman said:


> I agree although my rabbit still goes round the tree the wrong way and never knows whether to go up or down the rabbit hole  :mad2::lol-053:
> 
> As a former rock climber, I can't live without a figure of 8, which I can do in my sleep and which I can use if I mess up the Bowline, by rethreading it if necessary around something, I'll try to find a link to explain better.



Figure of Eight is a great knot (ex-climber too) for security and also it makes a loop that doesn't close when the rope's pulled BUT its a bugger to open up once it's pulled tight sometimes!


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## northernspirit2001 (Feb 21, 2013)

jamesmarshall said:


> Is that the film about an American prison starring Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman?



That's Sheep Shank Redemption, the story of a man trying to undo his knot after tow starting his motorhome


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## REC (Feb 21, 2013)

lamby said:


> And probably the last knot for some



Caught up late as have been offline...but could not resist...just knot funny:rolleyes2:


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## REC (Feb 21, 2013)

Very intersting thread, am now looking for a book as I seem to be a bit hooked with the idea of knowing and using some effective knots instead of my usual method of tying things together somehow, explains many mishaps and OHs frequent complaints.


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## whitevanwoman (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for bumping this thread up again, I'd forgotten to check my dodgy knot book in the van but I will do.

I have had a look at Lofty Wiseman's Urban survival manual and I can't find any mention of knots whatsoever although I've just skimmed through it. Lofty's original SAS survival handbook (the square one with the red and white cover) is in the loft somewhere but next time I'm up there I'll dig it out for a look. I'm sure there'll be knots in that one.


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## Bigpeetee (Feb 21, 2013)

Talking of cable ties previously in the thread, the damage these can do if not secured properly.

If used in a high vibration area such as on aircraft, they can eat away substantial quantities of alloy tubing just by vibration and the hard plastic against soft metal. It was really quite disturbing when 50% of the tube thickness was eaten away, OK it was multiple tubing, but still cost quite a few pounds to replace (the monopole on a microlight aircraft for those interested, it did also have a steel cable as extra security to stop you dying if the pole fails, but makes landing a controlled crash!!)


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