# hook up leads



## tidewatcher (Feb 20, 2016)

OK a sort of rhetorical question but can anyone tell me if it is some sort of regulation which makes the UK orange hook up leads so heavy duty. They are heavy to carry, awful to roll up when the weather is cold and take up a lot of space. Whenever I am in France all the camper vans just take out a standard domestic roll up extension lead with suitable adapters and away they go.

It has nothing to do with current capacity as I have used a normal extension lead to run an arc welder so it should cope with a teeny weeny fridge and the odd burst of hot water. Not only that but most campsite output is 10A anyway.


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## Siimplyloco (Feb 20, 2016)

Your arc welder unit has a transformer in it to convert lots of volts into lots of amps. Jump leads have no such gadget available so have to be of a suitable diameter to carry the heavy currents involved. I have no experience of French jump leads but the physics do not add up. A standard mains cable would melt before  your very eyes.
John


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## delicagirl (Feb 20, 2016)

cable which is in one of those retractable cases will build up a heat during use,  especially where it touches itself as it curls round and round  -  especially  if it is not totally pulled out and rewound each time it is used....  I have seen complete lengths welded together where the plastic outer sheathing  has melted


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## Teutone (Feb 20, 2016)

Isn't that only a requirment on Caravan club sites? I always wondered why they want 2.5mm2 cable when the hook up is only 10A max


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

Its a question of the strength of the cable as the cable size gets bigger so does the insulation,  Arctic cable is used for its physical strength.
Its basically a site cable suitable for construction sites where cables may be walked or driven over.

It is common to see blue sheathed flexible cables, sometimes referred to as "Arctic" cable, used on temporary low-voltage installations, such as construction sites, fairgrounds and musical events. In addition to blue, this type of cable is available in many different colours, such as yellow and orange and some cables even have the word ARCTIC embossed throughout the length. Not all cables are suitable for all applications. It is, therefore, important to establish the suitability of the cable in question prior to selection by referencing the standard to which the cable is manufactured. Standard Flexible Cable is only suitable down to +5 deg   Arctic cable to BS 7919 goes down to -25 deg

If the standard 25m is too much for do as I do I have a 5m Length and a 15m length and use as required you can join if needed.
Its a knack to coil and twist as you coil the cable. If you have genuine Arctic  cable it keeps fairly pliable in cold weather but over recent years the UK market has been flooded with cheap brands not to UK standards mainly i the Blue and Yellow variety but some E**y cables are like this as well.

Check your ?arctic grade? cable for safety

Alf




tidewatcher said:


> OK a sort of rhetorical question but can anyone tell me if it is some sort of regulation which makes the UK orange hook up leads so heavy duty. They are heavy to carry, awful to roll up when the weather is cold and take up a lot of space. Whenever I am in France all the camper vans just take out a standard domestic roll up extension lead with suitable adapters and away they go.
> 
> It has nothing to do with current capacity as I have used a normal extension lead to run an arc welder so it should cope with a teeny weeny fridge and the odd burst of hot water. Not only that but most campsite output is 10A anyway.


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## Suntor 100 (Feb 20, 2016)

I think the question is, would a 10 - 15amp cable with correct fittings be ok to use instead of the heavy duty one supplied.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

No in the event of an accident you could be judged as using unsatisfactory equipment not up to the recommended requirement.
Did you read the post number 8

Alf




Suntor 100 said:


> I think the question is, would a 10 - 15amp cable with correct fittings be ok to use instead of the heavy duty one supplied.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

Here is a copy of the relevant regulation from BS7671





Suntor 100 said:


> I think the question is, would a 10 - 15amp cable with correct fittings be ok to use instead of the heavy duty one supplied.


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## Tezza33 (Feb 20, 2016)

siimplyloco said:


> Your arc welder unit has a transformer in it to convert lots of volts into lots of amps. Jump leads have no such gadget available so have to be of a suitable diameter to carry the heavy currents involved. I have no experience of French jump leads but the physics do not add up. A standard mains cable would melt before  your very eyes.
> John



I think he means EHU leads and not jump leads John.
For the amount of space and weight saving I would stick with the correct one, as Alf said there are regulations and these days if they can put the blame on somebody they will


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## tidewatcher (Feb 20, 2016)

*interesting*

I did mean hook up not jump leads and am well aware of the laws of physics. My point is really do the CC regulations really reflect requirements. The size of the "approved" lead is mostly insulation protection and is safe to drive over, the current capacity is the same as a normal extension lead. As I implied a normal extension lead is safe to 15A and used at 13A maximum, the same as a household ring main. 

It is normal practice to ensure a wind up extension lead is fully extended and no coils left on the drum when using anywhere, not just on camp sites so no difference there and if you lay your lead out so as not to be across traffic just what "accidents"can you expect?

Surely if a normal extension lead is safe for use in domestic environments then the correctly fitted blue plugs it is safe elsewhere? My house insurance would not be invalidated by using an extension lead so why should it be a problem elsewhere?

Hey Ho, Vive la France as they say.......


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## tidewatcher (Feb 20, 2016)

*and again...*

Just noticed this on googlmania..

3240	(13.5A)	1.25mm2	3kW fires, older kettles
3840	(16A)	1.5mm2	Storage heaters, immersion heaters

The safe cross section for 240v 16A appears to be 1.5 square mm so why do you need 2,5 square mm for a normal 10a camping site outlet? I cannot think that voltage drop is the reason so is it just a specification someone has cribbed from industrial site usage?

Anyway we are probably stuck with it in the UK but I really do think it is a jobsworth spec.

Never stop questioning!


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

You can use wet string if you must but it's a legal requirement of Bs7671 formally the IEE Electrical regulations. They are to this standard for a reason Safety if you wish to risk injury or a fatal accident use whatever you wish. The CC recommendations are not mandatory but BS7671 is a legal requirement.

Extension leads in general are of poor quality cable and fittings an Extension lead to the same quality of a hook up lead will be dearer than the hook up and far bulkier.
The rating of extension leads is ambiguous they are short term ratings not continuous.

Alf



tidewatcher said:


> I did mean hook up not jump leads and am well aware of the laws of physics. My point is really do the CC regulations really reflect requirements. The size of the "approved" lead is mostly insulation protection and is safe to drive over, the current capacity is the same as a normal extension lead. As I implied a normal extension lead is safe to 15A and used at 13A maximum, the same as a household ring main.
> 
> It is normal practice to ensure a wind up extension lead is fully extended and no coils left on the drum when using anywhere, not just on camp sites so no difference there and if you lay your lead out so as not to be across traffic just what "accidents"can you expect?
> 
> ...


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## TJBi (Feb 20, 2016)

tidewatcher said:


> I did mean hook up not jump leads and am well aware of the laws of physics. My point is really do the CC regulations really reflect requirements. The size of the "approved" lead is mostly insulation protection and is safe to drive over, the current capacity is the same as a normal extension lead. As I implied a normal extension lead is safe to 15A and used at 13A maximum, the same as a household ring main.
> 
> It is normal practice to ensure a wind up extension lead is fully extended and no coils left on the drum when using anywhere, not just on camp sites so no difference there and if you lay your lead out so as not to be across traffic just what "accidents"can you expect?
> 
> ...



You not only meant "hook up", you wrote "hook up".  It was the next post that muddied the waters!

Your "normal" (UK) extension lead will have a fuse (probably 13a) in the 3-pin plug.  This will protect the cable from any excessive current - the fuse will blow - so if your cable is rated for 13a you should be OK.  The EN 60309 plugs generally used by motorhomers and caravanners do not have fuses, so you are reliant on the breakers on the supply side for protection and would need to check their rating against the rating of the cable.  The plugs themselves are rated for currents of up to 16a, so there is the potential to exceed the rating of a standard domestic cable.

Tom


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## TJBi (Feb 20, 2016)

Alf said:


> <snip> The CC recommendations are not mandatory but BS7671 is a legal requirement.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Alf



Not in France!


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

Your post reminded me of the hook bollard at Stroma View in the Highlands when I noticed this Did we stay.....No

Af 




tidewatcher said:


> I did mean hook up not jump leads and am well aware of the laws of physics. My point is really do the CC regulations really reflect requirements. The size of the "approved" lead is mostly insulation protection and is safe to drive over, the current capacity is the same as a normal extension lead. As I implied a normal extension lead is safe to 15A and used at 13A maximum, the same as a household ring main.
> 
> It is normal practice to ensure a wind up extension lead is fully extended and no coils left on the drum when using anywhere, not just on camp sites so no difference there and if you lay your lead out so as not to be across traffic just what "accidents"can you expect?
> 
> ...


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## Tezza33 (Feb 20, 2016)

TJBi said:


> You not only meant "hook up", you wrote "hook up".  It was the next post that muddied the waters!
> 
> 
> Tom


Very strange Tom because I thought he had originally posted 'jump lead' but then again I have read things wrong before :sad:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

*Hook Up*

This was the hook up bollard at Stroma View. No lid to the bollard open to view and small fingers the Owner was surprised that I queried it. After checking the toilets needless to say we did not stay

Alf


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 20, 2016)

*Cat among the Pigeons*

Now then this is another story indeed.


Well there lies the Question you quote ............_My house insurance would not be invalidated by using an extension lead _
Under BS7671 and more so the ESQCR regulations it is illegal to supply a caravan or Motor Caravan from the standard house electricity supply
So should there be an accident of any type at your home and I was called to inspect the Electrical part of the claim your insurance would be invalid.
Even with the correct hook up lead.
Alf 



tidewatcher said:


> I did mean hook up not jump leads and am well aware of the laws of physics. My point is really do the CC regulations really reflect requirements. The size of the "approved" lead is mostly insulation protection and is safe to drive over, the current capacity is the same as a normal extension lead. As I implied a normal extension lead is safe to 15A and used at 13A maximum, the same as a household ring main.
> 
> It is normal practice to ensure a wind up extension lead is fully extended and no coils left on the drum when using anywhere, not just on camp sites so no difference there and if you lay your lead out so as not to be across traffic just what "accidents"can you expect?
> 
> ...


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## Fazerloz (Feb 20, 2016)

Alf said:


> Now then this is another story indeed.
> 
> 
> Well there lies the Question you quote ............_My house insurance would not be invalidated by using an extension lead _
> ...



I dare bet.  Not a lot of people know that.


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## Siimplyloco (Feb 20, 2016)

tezza33 said:


> Very strange Tom because I thought he had originally posted 'jump lead' but then again I have read things wrong before :sad:



That's  what I thought, hence my post! I should have gone to Specsavers...


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## Sparks (Feb 20, 2016)

Further weight saving can be made in the brakes department. Simply remove the rear shoes and drums from your vehicle as the front brakes are more than adequate to stop the vehicle. Most times.


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## Mr D (Feb 20, 2016)

Dependant on whether you have a forward or rear wheel drive vehicle. No worries, I'll just remove my front brakes instead.

Saying that, it's an LDV Convoy - none of the brakes ever work, it came out of the factory like that. The only thing stops my van is my foot off the pedal and the weight of the van itself. You learn to love em'...


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## Polar Bear (Feb 20, 2016)

All that and then taking into consideration 'start up loads'?   It's 2.5 arctic for a reason.


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## Polar Bear (Feb 20, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> A house ring main is wired up with 2.5mm cables.



As Alf will tell you a 'ring' main has a 2.5 mm cable coming from both sides of the socket. in effect making it 5.0 mm. And the cables do not move around!


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## Fazerloz (Feb 20, 2016)

A while ago we were doing some repairs in a freezer warehouse at a large bakery and had several extensions pulled out, it was  -28c  and at the end of the day we had to pull them outside and leave them for a  hour before we could coil them back up they were that brittle.


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## jagmanx (Feb 21, 2016)

*Common Sense*



Alf said:


> Now then this is another story indeed.
> 
> 
> Well there lies the Question you quote ............_My house insurance would not be invalidated by using an extension lead _
> ...



The Orange cables are designed to take 16 amps safely.
I assume the "electrical components" in the vehicle comply.

A standard house connector uses a 13amp plug/ fuse so this would blow first. (the whole point of fuses)

Also presumably the main purpose of using house EHU is simply to top up the batteries
What current would that use ?

If on a campsite with proper 16amp connection ..
The most we use in the van is
a) a 1 KW fan heater (4.5 amps)
b) a rice cooker (2 amps)
c) a  laptop (2 amps max)

NEVER at the same time !

If the camp connection is lower capacity it will have RCDs which will trip !

Ps I am a firm believer in Safety First (Electrical/Tyres/Brakes/driving speed  etc etc)
Whenever I see a coiled up cable drum in use by another camper I (politely) advise them of the danger !
They often leave said drum under the camper maybe near the fuel tank or gas !!!


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

I am not sure about the "13amp fuse will protect" part. It will protect for a SHORT and blow but you may be surprised how hot you can get a plug socket and extension lead with drawing over 13amp without any fuse in the plug blowing.


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

I think the point is that 1.5sq mm cable would be enough to carry 16amp, so why 2.5sqmm? The standard only sets the requirement but is no meant to explain why.

Just for the coiling up issue?


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## shortcircuit (Feb 21, 2016)

Got some real "expert" opinions here.  Come on Alf, sort this out.


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## tidewatcher (Feb 21, 2016)

*this is fun*

When I mentioned not invalidating my house insurance I was referring only to using a normal extension lead, not using it for charging a camper though what difference that makes I have no idea. As for the length of extension leads normal domestic ones can exceed 25 m but are still OK to use for domestic purposes. Would someone kindly explain why the electricity is dangerous when going through a wire to a camper van drawing at the most 10A but not when used at home drawing 15A?

No one has yet mentioned one of my points that the bulk of the orange cable is made up for drive over protection rather than overkill on current transmission. OK taking that as a given, also ensuring any coiled extension lead is fully unwound when in use either at home or as a hook up the arguments concerning heating of the cable and the like just do not stand up.

And over to you......


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

Hamish  there is an hardcore of forum members who will argue that the black is not black enough or that it is too black. For that reason I think I will stay away from this thread now for most members a Standard hook up cable will be accepted.

Just one other point whilst a Electrical Installation Inspector for the Local Electricity Board when there was such a body I have been called to inspect dozens of fires both in domestic and commercial premises, numerous fatal accidents involving floors and wall being drilled or nailed, numerous suicides involving cables fastened to wrists and then connected to a socket outlet and then turned on or electrical appliances dropped into a baths. More recent the death of 90 breeding sows running into hundreds of thousands of pounds caused by an inept farm manager and slipshod farm hands.

Electrical safety is paramount and if silly forum members wish to use sub standard hook up leads so be it but be aware it is unlikely this will affect them just some poor child ,a passing  motor caravan owner or an animal. 

Alf







shortcircuit said:


> Got some real "expert" opinions here.  Come on Alf, sort this out.


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

Alf said:


> Hamish  there is an hardcore of forum members who will argue that the black is not black enough or that it is too black. For that reason I think I will stay away from this thread now for most members a Standard hook up cable will be accepted.
> 
> Just one other point whilst a Electrical Installation Inspector for the Local Electricity Board when there was such a body I have been called to inspect dozens of fires both in domestic and commercial premises, numerous fatal accidents involving floors and wall being drilled or nailed, numerous suicides involving cables fastened to wrists and then connected to a socket outlet and then turned on or electrical appliances dropped into a baths. More recent the death of 90 breeding sows running into hundreds of thousands of pounds caused by an inept farm manager and slipshod farm hands.
> 
> ...



I don't condone using equipment not to spec, I just wanted to know the reasons why 2.5mm sq is required.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

This was explained earlier in the thread

Alf




Teutone said:


> I don't condone using equipment not to spec, I just wanted to know the reasons why 2.5mm sq is required.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

This is now a quite common occurrence unfortunately standards have dropped in the last few years its now all about money. More speed more money. I did not renew my qualification when Corgi ceased. With trade insurance on the increase and age constraints  I doubt that I will renew my electrical ones this year.
I await the result of the explosion at Haxby with interest

Alf




swiftcamper said:


> It is the same with gas this week alone we have turned off 3 ,customers gas supplies when carrying out safety checks,  3 faulty regulators on mains gas and one major gas leak in the customers garden path which we smelt on entering the property, the previous gas operative had just fitted a plume kit,as the old boy said that he could smell gas.
> It is my duty to inform the gas supplier after doing my checks if anyone smells gas.
> The old boy said that he had been smelling gas for about 5 years, gas board were out tracing the leak and replacing the main within half an hour.


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

Alf said:


> This was explained earlier in the thread
> 
> Alf



I have read the thread and also the attachement. But it still doesn't explain (to me at least) why a 20A cable is specified for a 16A load?

Doing some research and it get's even more confusing to me. Cable to BS7919 is only suitable for 110V but down to -25deg C
Cable to BS6500 (which is also called "arctic") is for up to 300V but only to +5 deg C.

So how confusing is this???

If you look around there are plenty of camping shops selling blue cable with plugs advertised as Caravan suitable and rated with 16A despite the fact that it is only 1.5mm sq.

I want to have a legal and safe cable to connect my motorhome, which one should I buy? To BS7919 as required (and only for 110V) or BS6500 and not compliant with the standard?

Oh and another one. How about all these conversion leads with a blue plug one end and a 3 pin standard house plug on the other and sold as 16A. Wonder what fuse is in the 3 pin plug....


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

I suggest you have been reading the wrong articles this is one way google searches fall down 

Alf




Teutone said:


> I have read the thread and also the attachement. But it still doesn't explain (to me at least) why a 20A cable is specified for a 16A load?
> 
> Doing some research and it get's even more confusing to me. Cable to BS7919 is only suitable for 110V but down to -25deg C
> Cable to BS6500 (which is also called "arctic") is for up to 300V but only to +5 deg C.
> ...


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## Sparks (Feb 21, 2016)




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## slingshot2000 (Feb 21, 2016)

Sparks said:


>



Yep, seen one like that and all it had plugged in was a flat screen telly and a play-station, 25m extension reel used to supply a lad's den in a shed less than 5metres from the house. How it hadn't burnt the shed down I have no idea. I had warned them about this the previous week :mad2:

A few years ago I cam across an oil-filled radiator plugged into a similar extension reel. It had only been on a few minutes, but the extension reel was hotter than the radiator  :scared:


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

[No message]


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

thanks very much. Just ONE simple answer (even if it was posted before and did overlook it) would have saved me typing and typing. It's the length of 25meter.
Feel much more happy now that know :wave:


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

I have been busy all afternoon please explain in simple language what you want to know please remember I am not a CAD designer. I will get back to you shortly.


Alf




Teutone said:


> thanks very much. Just ONE simple answer (even if it was posted before and did overlook it) would have saved me typing and typing. It's the length of 25meter.
> Feel much more happy now that know :wave:


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## Teutone (Feb 21, 2016)

as far as my unqualified google search has revealed you are correct. Up to 15meter length 1.5mm sq is sufficient. Any longer will require 2.5mm sq up to 25m length. 

As per the caravan club document you posted, the max distance between the hook up point and your own plug  point is 20meter. So to have the worst case situation covered they want a 2.5mm sq cable max 25meter long.

So if parked within 15meter cable length a 1.5mm sq cable would theoretically be ok but rules are rules and a line needs to be drawn, hence 2.5mm sq it is. Fine with me because I know now why.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

The reason the hook up leads are specified at 25m length is because when the first electrical regulations were drawn up for Camping and Caravan Sites and the Caravan Club specification drawn there were few vehicles requiring hook ups at that time, the supply bollards were required to be NO more than 25m from the pitch at that time a bollard could serve up to 4 vans. 

Now there is a hook up point more or less  ( in the UK ) at every pitch. So the length is unimportant.

 In our last van we carried 2 x 10m lengths and a 5m length of hook up we stay on sites every blue moon (we only really stayed on one site the one a John of Groats ) now we carry a 10m and 5m hook up lead.

I have seen CC wardens refuse a joined cable and a CCC warden refuse hook ups of any colour other than orange.

*Cable Type* 

Initial hook up leads were just standard Heavy Duty Flexible cable. When the original spec for Construction Site cable was brought  out it was for a new type of PVC cable to withstand the rigours of building sites to withstand scuffs and abrasion that was BS 7919 The Cable was termed Arctic  and coloured yellow the cables were rated at up to 110v, and withstand temperature down to -25 deg

This spec was so successful it was modified to cables rated up to 450/750v and the colours blue and orange included.     Off hand I think this is BS7919-2001

BS7671 specifies this cable as 

1.	Cables for outdoor use should be rubber insulated and sheathed as specified in BS 7919 (H07RN-F or equivalent), with a minimum voltage designation of 450/750 V (heavy duty flexible as a minimum, as defined in BS 7540-1) and resistant to abrasion and water.

2.	Cables should be flexible and of suitable conductor size and mechanical strength for their intended duty


3.	The means of connection to the caravan pitch socket-outlet shall be supplied with the caravan and shall comprise the following: (i) A plug complying with BS EN 60309-2, and (ii) a flexible cord or cable of 25 m (±2 m) length, harmonized code designation H05RN-F (BS 7919) or equivalent, incorporating a protective conductor, with a colour identification according to Table 51 and of a cross-sectional area in accordance with Table 721, and (iii) a connector, if any, compatible with the appliance inlet installed under Regulation 721.55.1. Table 721 - Minimum cross-sectional areas of flexible cords and cables for caravan connection

The anomaly is the regulation ought to say up to 25m.

For small caravans and motor homes 1.5mm  cable may be satisfactory but 1.5mm  cable does not have the physical strength of 2.5mm cable and it was decided to specify a Standard Hook Up lead suitable for All vans.

Then there is the requirement for a suitable earthing lead 1.5mm does not meet that requirement.

Alf





Teutone said:


> thanks very much. Just ONE simple answer (even if it was posted before and did overlook it) would have saved me typing and typing. It's the length of 25meter.
> Feel much more happy now that know :wave:


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## tidewatcher (Feb 21, 2016)

*and fini*

Well we now seem to have some definitive information on the subject and what fun it was! Standard hook up length needs 2.5 and maximum for 1.5 is 15 m which, seem to recall is a standard length for domestic household extension leads.

On balance the orange hook up seems to be the one to use but what a lot we have learnt!

Firstly people, myself included, can miss read a post with ease.

Secondly when writing a post it is easy to phrase something which seems clear in your own head but can be ambiguous to others.

Thirdly the actual regulations are a bit of a mash up pulled from other areas.

Fourthly how quickly a topic can drift, at one point it seemed as though it was certain death to use anything other than the orange cable under any circumstances. I acknowledge cables when remaining on the reel induce heat and can melt but that can also be a potential problem with the orange cable if tightly wound. Still, all good safety advice.

Now, what shall we talk about next....


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## st3v3 (Feb 21, 2016)

Only had a quick scan and not sure if anyone has said why coiled cables melt.

A coil of wire acts as an inductor - which has the function of, when AC is involved, acting like a resistance.

When you pass a current through a resistance, you get heat.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

We are back to my reply to Hamish (Shortcicuit  ) there is an hardcore of Forum members that will aruge over anything.

1.5mm cable is not satisfactory it has never been whatever the length of cable,  2.5mm cable is the minimum specification required unless of course foolhardy.

*Then there is the requirement for a suitable earthing lead 1.5mm does not meet that requirement.
*

Alf 




tidewatcher said:


> Well we now seem to have some definitive information on the subject and what fun it was! Standard hook up length needs 2.5 and maximum for 1.5 is 15 m which, seem to recall is a standard length for domestic household extension leads.
> 
> On balance the orange hook up seems to be the one to use but what a lot we have learnt!
> 
> ...


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 21, 2016)

We could talk about the use of part used tyres and brake pads to save weight and increase fuel consumption 

Alf





tidewatcher said:


> Well we now seem to have some definitive information on the subject and what fun it was! Standard hook up length needs 2.5 and maximum for 1.5 is 15 m which, seem to recall is a standard length for domestic household extension leads.
> 
> On balance the orange hook up seems to be the one to use but what a lot we have learnt!
> 
> ...


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## iampatman (Feb 21, 2016)

Hi there Tidewatcher,

Didn't we meet on a France Passion site last year, Bonhoste I think? 

You and your missus seemed like really nice folk so............. Don't risk it for the sake of a few quid/euros get a proper hook up cable and then maybe we'll see each other again somewhere. 

All the best,

Pat

ps. If we didn't meet you last year get a proper cable anyway 

P


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## Chris356 (Feb 21, 2016)

Cpc have some extention  leads on offer 14 metre long Arctic 16amp 2.5mm pvc £14.50 or in rubber £12.50 inc delivery too


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## tidewatcher (Feb 22, 2016)

*sure did*



iampatman said:


> Hi there Tidewatcher,
> 
> Didn't we meet on a France Passion site last year, Bonhoste I think?
> 
> ...



yup we did and in honesty I do have the proper cable, kinda wondered why the French rarely do... Jolly interesting discussion though! Still sipping some of the Bonhoste booty and very pleasant it is too. Enjoy the travels and maybe bump into you again.


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## Peteluwie (Feb 22, 2016)

*EHU Leads*

I always unwind and keep cable free of obstructions and nothing on top to heat up.


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## Beemer (Feb 22, 2016)

st3v3 said:


> Only had a quick scan and not sure if anyone has said why coiled cables melt.
> 
> A coil of wire acts as an inductor - which has the function of, when AC is involved, acting like a resistance.
> 
> When you pass a current through a resistance, you get heat.




There are two main things that happen in a coiled extension lead.  The first is inductance between the coils If you have 2 coils of cable next to each other and pass a current through either of them then that has an effect on the other - inductance causes a reactance in the cable. 
This has the same effect as a resistance in the cable and current flowing through it heats the cable. Obviously the more coils you have the greater effect this has (1 coil has 1 effect, 2 coils, 2x effect etc in simple terms) 

The second thing that happens is that the coils wrapped round each other prevent the build up of heat in the cable from escaping - so it builds and builds and eventually the cable can overheat.   
The rating stipulated for a cable in amps is for the cable to be fully unwound - if it is coiled then the current rating drops, if I were to install wiring through insulation there is a table to show what size the cross section would have to be to sustain the ampage and to comply with current regulations.  Coiled cable is in effect cable that is grouped together for which there is also table guidelines in the 'book' (BS7671).


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## tidewatcher (Feb 23, 2016)

*oooh errr*

Just to reafirm my initial question which was why in the UK we have the ornage 2.5mm cables and in Frnace they appear to use normal extension leads. I decided to do some research on French Caravan accesory suppliers and low and behold this popped up..

Nos Accessoires/Energie Electricité Rallonge CEE 17 P185

If the ink works, which is not a certainty, it shows a 16A cable in black 1.5mm and chose your length of 25 or 50 meters......

Please don't shoot the messenger but my initial post did not advocate what to use it merely questioned why our cables are so very different from the French. I assume the French don't mind the odd burn up or two though I have never seen or heard of any in my limited experience of such things.

Coat, Hat, door......


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 23, 2016)

Apart from the USA Electrical regulations ours is the next best in the world and as far as the EU goes we are the only ones to follow Rules and Regulations to the letter.
Use what you will it will still work in the UK sadly it's got to be 2.5mm.
Check the Somali Building regs.

Alf




tidewatcher said:


> Just to reafirm my initial question which was why in the UK we have the ornage 2.5mm cables and in Frnace they appear to use normal extension leads. I decided to do some research on French Caravan accesory suppliers and low and behold this popped up..
> 
> Nos Accessoires/Energie Electricité Rallonge CEE 17 P185
> 
> ...


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## Tezza33 (Feb 23, 2016)

tidewatcher said:


> I assume the French don't mind the odd burn up or two though I have never seen or heard of any in my limited experience of such things.
> 
> ..


We must all have been on an aire in France where the French/Dutch and Germans have a multiplug connected to another multiplug and several vans running off one outlet, they don't seem to mind anything


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## st3v3 (Feb 23, 2016)

Beemer said:


> There are two main things that happen in a coiled extension lead.  The first is inductance between the coils If you have 2 coils of cable next to each other and pass a current through either of them then that has an effect on the other



You're getting a little confused... 

2 different cables next to each other - a current passing through one will induce a _Voltage_ in the other. That's not what we have here.



> - inductance causes a reactance in the cable.



Correct, if you mean our coil of cable is actually an inductor, and reactance is frequency dependent resistance. So, an inductor at 50Hz has a resistance, that makes the heat.



> This has the same effect as a resistance in the cable and current flowing through it heats the cable. Obviously the more coils you have the greater effect this has (1 coil has 1 effect, 2 coils, 2x effect etc in simple terms)



Quite.



> The second thing that happens is that the coils wrapped round each other prevent the build up of heat in the cable from escaping - so it builds and builds and eventually the cable can overheat.



Whilst not incorrect, it's not what is going to melt the cable. If you actually try this, you'll melt a cable very quickly if the current is high enough, much quicker than would be attributed to heat build up because it can't escape.



> Coiled cable is in effect cable that is grouped together for which there is also table guidelines in the 'book' (BS7671).


 Not true. Use that grouped circuits table to calculate a wire size and then coil the cable up and see what happens... This table is for the effect of heat not being able to escape, nothing to do with any sort of effect increasing the resistance of the cable.


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## st3v3 (Feb 23, 2016)

Spread out on a bar is not coiled tightly 

The fire/toaster/filament lamp is a bad conductor (higher than would normally be desired resistance) being driven near it's limit. It's a resistor limiting current and giving off heat.

The coils are to get enough of the element in a small space.

Nothing to do with inductance, or your coiled extension lead. If you stretch that element out in a straight line, it will still glow and produce heat.


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 24, 2016)

David my comment was that trade opinion is that the USA Building Codes are the most restected in the world followed by ours I never mentioned 
French at all. I have several friends with property over there and some who have worked in France too I have yet o here a good report of standards ( but this may well be to unfamiliar working practices )
As to the Double pole breakers this would be an advantage i Agree All the sockets in my property are Double Pole.

Ring Mains well when I started work Radial Sub Circuits were the norm, many electricians disagreed with the introduction of the ring main for various reasons at the time we were using 3kw appliances off 15a sockets the new 13a ones were a backword step many said.
the Ring Main is a very good idea taken in context my Bungalow has 4 ring mains in a 2 bed bungalow, the use of a ring main for a full house is poor workmanship and design every kitchen should have its own ring as should a laundry or utility room.
With trade standards falling the number of dewellings I have inspected and found ring mains incomplete is considerable even to a full estate of 30 houses where no testing can have taken place as all certificates showed readings for complete rings it was obvious the electrician that wired these houses was not the one that second fixed, the same plastered over socket missing in each house these were all tenanted at the time.
( this resulted in a threat of violence from the contractor involved which was passed to the police )

I know of no contractors in the UK that avoid ring mains so would be grateful of any pointers to this.
I have a garage full of various extensions of all sizes and makes from .75mm to 4mm from 10m to 100m these all have a use for a particular job.
one of my favorites is a American Black and Decker 15m  .75mm extension this has a double socket on the reel and a single socket at the end of the wire as you unroll it the reel is at 7.5m and the single socket at 15m this is particularly suitable for use up ladderes or under floors.

This is why the standard heavy duty 2.5mm hook up was selected as a Standard leead to suit the most needs instead of having a loadof varied sizes of the to be confusing to the  numerous people who don't understand about overloading.

As for common sense yes the UK is the only country to abide by silly EU regulations I was a no voter before and feel the same now.

I must admit though in my small camper I have 2 radial sub circuits each  on  double pole 16a MCB's for my  5 x double pole 13A sockets

Alf


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## jagmanx (Feb 24, 2016)

*You must remember*



Alf said:


> David my comment was that trade opinion is that the USA Building Codes are the most restected in the world followed by ours I never mentioned
> French at all. I have several friends with property over there and some who have worked in France too I have yet o here a good report of standards ( but this may well be to unfamiliar working practices )
> As to the Double pole breakers this would be an advantage i Agree All the sockets in my property are Double Pole.
> 
> ...



David lives in France and clearly loves it there !
It is a shame that for someone who clearly has a good knowledge of many things that he simply reiterates that France/French is best which no doubt is true sometimes BUt NOT ALWAYS !


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## jagmanx (Feb 24, 2016)

*Maybe not directly*

But it is a continual implication in a proportion of your posts


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 24, 2016)

David With 2.5 mm T/WE I hardly ever use the standard stuff I have a stock of 2.5mm T/WE stranded cable far better to use going to the single core cable was a backward move I have always enjoyed maximum discount without asking for it from the two nearest electrical wholesalers but I find most of the staff I knew when i was trading have now retired I see the day coming where I will be classed as Joe Bloggs.

The double pole MCB's are difficult to source around here now as they classed special order. I doubt I will need any more anytime soon.

I have not come across a professional electricians forum as yet the ones I may have looked at at one time were and are full of half trained electricians asking for advice on how to do jobs.

Not speaking the language is a disadvantage when looking at French stuff on line 

BTW
When I started work The Electricity Board were still using Wood Capping and Casing and Slip Joint Oval Conduit.We then started on Lead Covered twin and twin with earth vir cables next i line was the terrible rubber cable.Also the copper sheathed pvc cables developed for Wellington Bombers this came in all sizes and any amount of cable cores. 

Alf


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 24, 2016)

This type of terminal block is now only becoming popular here it does have its advantages.With the 7 strand 2.5mm you can use these terminal blocks you are thinking of the single 6491x cable

Circular Saw to remove floor boards you are showing your poor trade standards I will remove a floor board and replace so you cannot see its been removed, its only in the last few years thin saw blades have been available the one you must have used would have reduced the board by half an inch.

Alf


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## st3v3 (Feb 24, 2016)

Damn theory getting in the way of fact eh???

We may well be arguing the same point, so I'll ask a question - do extension leads coiled up melt because they can't dissipate the heat the cable would normally produce when laid out straight, or do they melt because they are in fact, an inductor?


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 24, 2016)

I do prefer the Floorboard chisel I have a *French* one I have had for 50 years or more its a 75mm wide blade less than 1mm thick this has been used to cut thousands of T & G boards. I will allow no one else to touch never mind use it.  I also have a 50 year old machine that has a 3" round blade like a stanley knife blade, round  rubber type tyre's and you can stand on the platform and rachet it across the floor a bit slower but it does not leave a mark on the floor or board.
The amount of sawdust from circular saws has always put me off.
 I note the way the heating men now use the same board as the electrician to save getting their own boards up with cables now in drilled holes they follow notching the joist for pipes.
 I have used 4" nails with a polished head and saw cuts in them The time they took trying to remove the screws.  :mad1::hammer: 


Alf


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## st3v3 (Feb 24, 2016)

Alf said:


> I also have a 50 year old machine that has a 3" round blade like a stanley knife blade, round  rubber type tyre's and you can stand on the platform and rachet it across the floor a bit slower but it does not leave a mark on the floor or board.



I had something similar some time ago. It was far too much effort, but maybe because it was blunt...



> The amount of sawdust from circular saws has always put me off.



It's extra insulation!

lol.



> I note the way the heating men now use the same board as the electrician to save getting their own boards up with cables now in drilled holes they follow notching the joist for pipes.
> Alf



I do plumbing and electrical, so will always be looking for the boards that have been up before for the same reasons. When there is a lot of work going on I'll leave them loose in case anyone is coming behind me. Then, tell the customer to call me before carpet to screw them back down. Secretly hoping they won't of course lol.



Was he suggesting a radial for the kitchen?


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## Deleted member 5816 (Feb 24, 2016)

David we are a long way of the OP now this will be my last post off topic.
For 5years whilst providing a 24/7 service I was Mr  Persimmon from 14.30 to 09.30 the following day I hated the last Friday in the month, site managers pushed for better moths turn round for better bonus.
Faults

Bath panels fitted without waste pipes connected first thing on moving children in bath huge floods afterwards.

Most had internal stack pipes Traps fitted before sewer pipe connected 

I could fill a book with the faults on the last week of the month electric gas plumbing all suffered with the rush to turn over houses.

I used to do callouts as well as my staff properly more so at least they knew I was pulling my weight and they knew they could not pull the wool over my eyes.

Alf


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## n brown (Feb 24, 2016)

years ago i was subbing for Wimpeys as a snagger, i was reminded by the mention of slotted nails. i've never seen them before or since but we were supplied with properly made screw headed nails for fitting coat racks etc to breeze block walls. anyway,it wasn't unusual to have to replace every door and/or window in a 6 month old house, doors warped and windows rotted
in Bath, 2 new houses were built on a steep hill. after nearly 2 years, having become aware of a worsening smell, it was discovered that the internal stackpipes had never been connected to the drains,and just emptied into the large triangular space under the floor. plumbers saved a few quid there !


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## st3v3 (Feb 24, 2016)

Alf said:


> David we are a long way of the OP now



It wouldn't be WC if we weren't


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## Tezza33 (Feb 24, 2016)

We are (well you lot are) so far off the OP I think you should be using 3.5mm2 not 2.5mm2:hammer:


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## tidewatcher (Feb 25, 2016)

*crikey*

Been taking a good look at my camper van and now feel completely out of touch. The Thetford doesn't seem to have a "trap" fitted and try as I might the Fiat is completely devoid of floorboards.

Really wish I had taken the circular saw (thin blade) to it now.......

Still at least the saw was running well, that's 2.5m wire for you....

Thanks to all who put their tuppence in on this thread, it really was a genuine query which I never expected to lead to discussions over the EU membership or floorboards but it was all the stronger for it! 

happy motorhoming


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## st3v3 (Feb 26, 2016)

swiftcamper said:


> Luckily you didn't ask about black or grey water



Or dog poo...


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