Drink driving in Scotland

[Fisherman]

I dont think you understand what I am saying Bill. If I get done for DD in France I wont lose my UK licence, ill just be banned in France. England does not agree clearly with the Scottish lowering of the DD Law so the same should apply. If I get done in Scotland for breaking their lower level of tolerance then I rightly should be done in Scotland, fined and banned from Driving there if that is what they deem appropriate but why should I be banned in England? I have broken no laws in England and had I been stopped and breathalysed for say 0.6mg in England I would not have committed an offence there so in the eyes of English law, why should I lose my right to drive outside of Scotland?

You have every right to make laws in Scotland. But if they are "peculiar" to Scotland then the penalty should only apply in Scotland.

Oh yes I do Barry I understand you completely.
You seem to think because we are “attached” to you, that you can refer to your laws whilst up here. You conveniently failed to mention Ireland, you would suffer a ban if caught drunk driving there. You may only be banned from driving in France, but you will have a criminal record which may ban you from entering certain countries including the US. And when ETIAS is in force, it may even ban you for a period from entering the EU.

As for breaking no laws in England, you were not subject to English law, you were in Scotland, and subject to Scottish Law.
You seem to think you can apply your English laws whilst up here.

Yes Barry we do have every right to make laws in Scotland, and we have every right to apply them evenly to anyone from, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Ireland, the US, Spain, Portugal, Scotland, or England who break them. If I am caught drunk driving in Scotland at a level lower than in England I will be banned throughout the U.K., I doubt if you will hear to many of us up here questioning the validity, or indeed the fairness of this, we will instead be bowing our heads in shame, and accept what punishment we receive. And that punishment is normally loss of your U.K. driving licence for at least one year, no matter where in the U.K. you come from.

Sorry Barry I hate being at loggerheads with you on this, and I will say no more.

 

[Fazerloz]

Maybe the Scots should campaign to go back to the old limit back in line with the rest of the UK, as the university study showed the lowering didn't produce the expected result in the lowering of both accidents and deaths. But that would mean a government saying they had got something wrong and relinquishing a little control back to the people.

 

[Fazerloz]

The law around air rifles is very strange, in Scotland you get a license to own sub 12 rifles and this covers you for multiple rifles, I have a FAC which includes a high powered air rifle and can legally take this to Scotland, but if I was to take a low powered rifle it would be illegal.

That one is bizarre, how do they justify that one or don't they bother trying.

 

[colinm]

That one is bizarre, how do they justify that one or don't they bother trying.

Dunno, it's weird, in 2019 my FAC covered me to take sub 12 air rifles to Scotland, but because it was renewed in 2020 I can now only take high powered air rifle, bullet rifles and shotguns.

 

[barryd]

Oh yes I do Barry I understand you completely.
You seem to think because we are “attached” to you, that you can refer to your laws whilst up here. You conveniently failed to mention Ireland, you would suffer a ban if caught drunk driving there. You may only be banned from driving in France, but you will have a criminal record which may ban you from entering certain countries including the US. And when ETIAS is in force, it may even ban you for a period from entering the EU.

As for breaking no laws in England, you were not subject to English law, you were in Scotland, and subject to Scottish Law.
You seem to think you can apply your English laws whilst up here.

Yes Barry we do have every right to make laws in Scotland, and we have every right to apply them evenly to anyone from, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Ireland, the US, Spain, Portugal, Scotland, or England who break them. If I am caught drunk driving in Scotland at a level lower than in England I will be banned throughout the U.K., I doubt if you will hear to many of us up here questioning the validity, or indeed the fairness of this, we will instead be bowing our heads in shame, and accept what punishment we receive. And that punishment is normally loss of your U.K. driving licence for at least one year, no matter where in the U.K. you come from.

Sorry Barry I hate being at loggerheads with you on this, and I will say no more.

I dont think you do understand. I dont think at all that I can "refer" our laws in Scotland. I dont think I can apply English law whilst up in Scotland either. It would be quite right to be fined and possibly banned from driving in Scotland if I was over "Their" limit but if I was under the English Limit why should that ban apply in England? If they were the same level then it would make sense but they are not.

Heres another example. In Scotland apparently its law that you have to let someone use your toilet if they knock on your door. In England its not. So if you nock on my door here and I tell you to "bog" off I wont get nicked will I but you will if I nock on yours and you tell me to get lost. So should I get nicked just because its law in Scotland?

 

[Robmac]

I dont think you do understand. I dont think at all that I can "refer" our laws in Scotland. I dont think I can apply English law whilst up in Scotland either. It would be quite right to be fined and possibly banned from driving in Scotland if I was over "Their" limit but if I was under the English Limit why should that ban apply in England? If they were the same level then it would make sense but they are not.

Heres another example. In Scotland apparently its law that you have to let someone use your toilet if they knock on your door. In England its not. So if you nock on my door here and I tell you to "bog" off I wont get nicked will I but you will if I nock on yours and you tell me to get lost. So should I get nicked just because its law in Scotland?

I get what you are saying and agree with you Barry.

But I would imagine that the English interpretation of the offence would be on the premise that if you were willing to break that law in Scotland you would be willing to break that law in England even if the limit is a bit higher.

 

[wildebus]

I think it is all very easy ....
If you are from England and get done for drink driving in Scotland it will not affect your English driving license in the slightest. And if from Scotland and get done for drink driving in England, it will not affect your Scottish License in the slightest.

So now all you have to do is try and get an ENGLISH driving license, or a SCOTTISH driving license. Simple, eh?

But while you drive with a UNITED KINGDOM driving license, you have to adhere to whatever rules and regulations that are applicable to the road you are driving on within the UNITED KINGDOM to avoid any sanctions being applied to that licence.
I don't think it is rocket science, is it?

 

[Fisherman]

I don't think it is rocket science, is it?

You wouldn’t think so David.

 

[Fazerloz]

But while you drive with a UNITED KINGDOM driving license, you have to adhere whatever rules and regulations that are applicable to the road you are driving on within the UNITED KINGDOM to avoid any sanctions being applied to that licence.
I don't think it is rocket science, is it?

Has anyone questioned any of that. What has been questioned are the anomalies in the laws of the UK and are they fair.

 

[alcam]

I dont think you understand what I am saying Bill. If I get done for DD in France I wont lose my UK licence, ill just be banned in France. England does not agree clearly with the Scottish lowering of the DD Law so the same should apply. If I get done in Scotland for breaking their lower level of tolerance then I rightly should be done in Scotland, fined and banned from Driving there if that is what they deem appropriate but why should I be banned in England? I have broken no laws in England and had I been stopped and breathalysed for say 0.6mg in England I would not have committed an offence there so in the eyes of English law, why should I lose my right to drive outside of Scotland?

You have every right to make laws in Scotland. But if they are "peculiar" to Scotland then the penalty should only apply in Scotland.

UK licence you refer to Barry kind of answers your main point .
Scotland is in the UK . Break the law in part of the UK the punishment applies in the UK.
Actually wish the above wasn't the case but it is

 

[Tezza33]

Very true.

I know someone who is on constant (24/7, dosed automatically) pain relief and his morphine dose is very high as his body has got more used to it as time has gone on so dose is always going up.
He drives without any impairment but I think he is very concerned about if tested he could well fail a drug-driving test based purely on the volume/percentages rather than how affected.

If the morphine is prescribed he would not fail a drug driving test, however he could be prosecuted for being unfit to drive, I am on a high dose of Tramadol and Gabepentin, I was given a leaflet explaining the law for driving after taking pain killers that explained this

Drug-driving and prescription medication - The MDU

Some patients may have questions about licensed medications and driving.

www.themdu.com

 

[Robmac]

I think it is all very easy ....
If you are from England and get done for drink driving in Scotland it will not affect your English driving license in the slightest. And if from Scotland and get done for drink driving in England, it will not affect your Scottish License in the slightest.

So now all you have to do is try and get an ENGLISH driving license, or a SCOTTISH driving license. Simple, eh?

But while you drive with a UNITED KINGDOM driving license, you have to adhere to whatever rules and regulations that are applicable to the road you are driving on within the UNITED KINGDOM to avoid any sanctions being applied to that licence.
I don't think it is rocket science, is it?

I don't think that anybody is misunderstanding the law and no, it isn't rocket science.

Whether it is a fair law or not is a different matter, but it's what we have so it's immaterial really.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Never mind the English and Scottish laws on alcohol, all this talk of guns and crossbows - has the forum been infiltrated by damn Yankees for all this time?! Eek!

 

[Fisherman]

I think it is all very easy ....
If you are from England and get done for drink driving in Scotland it will not affect your English driving license in the slightest. And if from Scotland and get done for drink driving in England, it will not affect your Scottish License in the slightest.

So now all you have to do is try and get an ENGLISH driving license, or a SCOTTISH driving license. Simple, eh?

But while you drive with a UNITED KINGDOM driving license, you have to adhere to whatever rules and regulations that are applicable to the road you are driving on within the UNITED KINGDOM to avoid any sanctions being applied to that licence.
I don't think it is rocket science, is it?

The mistake some make is to think they are legally English, Scot’s, or Welsh.
In the eyes of the laws of Great Britain we are all British. Go check your passports and you won’t see any mention of England, Scotland, or Wales.

After the Lockerbie disaster, the defendants albeit in the Netherlands, were tried under Scottish law.

When the union was formed in 1707, Scottish law and the rights of the Scottish people to keep and make their own laws was enshrined within the act. And further all persons residing within the union of Great Britain would be subject to these laws and the punishments handed down by Scottish laws regardless of where they came from within the union.

Some seem to think that these driving limits are solely the product of the Scottish parliament and the act of devolution, they’re not. It was always possible for us to have separate laws long before Tony Blair and Labour came to power, and gave us devolution. And the fact that I am having to explain this, I find both insulting to my country, and actually quite offensive.

Yes Barry, you have been convicted of drunk driving at a limit set lower than in England, and you are correct, you have not breeched English law, but when in Scotland you are not subject to English law, you are subject to Scottish laws.
And your reference to your toilet which is in England and your vehicle which was being driven in Scotland by definition and application of common sense would not stand up to any kind of simple interrogation, never mind the complexities of our legal systems.

The reason we have stricter drunk driving laws up here, is because most Scot’s take the issue more seriously than seems to be the case in England. These laws are supported by the vast majority up here, a majority want even lower limits, some strongly believe there should be zero limits. So when you come up here and drive on our roads, are caught drunk driving, don’t expect any sympathy because your English, don’t refer to your laws because that’s both insulting, and irrelevant. Just do as any self respecting person should do and accept you have broken the law, and take your punishment in line with with our laws, which would normally be the loss of your U.K. driving licence.

I would never refer to Scottish law as any kind of defence or mitigation whilst in England, and I would accept any punishment handed down to me whilst subject to English law. I have far too much respect for English law and the people of England to do so. I also think that that respect should be mutual throughout the union of our nations.

 

[barryd]

The mistake some make is to think they are legally English, Scot’s, or Welsh.
In the eyes of the laws of Great Britain we are all British. Go check your passports and you won’t see any mention of England, Scotland, or Wales.

After the Lockerbie disaster, the defendants albeit in the Netherlands, were tried under Scottish law.

When the union was formed in 1707, Scottish law and the rights of the Scottish people to keep and make their own laws was enshrined within the act. And further all persons residing within the union of Great Britain would be subject to these laws and the punishments handed down by Scottish laws regardless of where they came from within the union.

Some seem to think that these driving limits are solely the product of the Scottish parliament and the act of devolution, they’re not. It was always possible for us to have separate laws long before Tony Blair and Labour came to power, and gave us devolution. And the fact that I am having to explain this, I find both insulting to my country, and actually quite offensive.

Yes Barry, you have been convicted of drunk driving at a limit set lower than in England, and you are correct, you have not breeched English law, but when in Scotland you are not subject to English law, you are subject to Scottish laws.
And your reference to your toilet which is in England and your vehicle which was being driven in Scotland by definition and application of common sense would not stand up to any kind of simple interrogation, never mind the complexities of our legal systems.

The reason we have stricter drunk driving laws up here, is because most Scot’s take the issue more seriously than seems to be the case in England. These laws are supported by the vast majority up here, a majority want even lower limits, some strongly believe there should be zero limits. So when you come up here and drive on our roads, are caught drunk driving, don’t expect any sympathy because your English, don’t refer to your laws because that’s both insulting, and irrelevant. Just do as any self respecting person should do and accept you have broken the law, and take your punishment in line with with our laws, which would normally be the loss of your U.K. driving licence.

I would never refer to Scottish law as any kind of defence or mitigation whilst in England, and I would accept any punishment handed down to me whilst subject to English law. I have far too much respect for English law and the people of England to do so. I also think that that respect should be mutual throughout the union of our nations.

Yet your drink driving deaths have doubled in the last decade and as we have seen the lower limits in Scotland has not had a positive effect.

 

[Fisherman]

Yet your drink driving deaths have doubled in the last decade and as we have seen the lower limits in Scotland has not had a positive effect.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish laws, or the attitude of some outwith Scotland towards them.

But seen as you wish to use figures try these ones.

Has drink driving decreased in Scotland?


The numbers of drink-drive accidents and casualties fell by 64% and 66% respectively between 2010 and 2020 (the latest year for which estimates are available): from a rounded estimate of 530 to roughly 190 (accidents) and from around 740 to some 250 (casualties).

 

[barryd]

That has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish laws, or the attitude of some outwith Scotland towards them.

The evidence would seem to suggest that lowering the limit has not had a positive effect. Deaths from DD have doubled. I'm not sure therefore that reducing the DD limit has been worthwhile. Most people thankfully don't drink drive these days including myself I feel I should reiterate once again but those that do this law has had no effect on it seems. All it's done is nock you out of kilter with England. Reducing it to zero as you suggest is crackers. You will have people losing the licences and livelihoods for taking a dose of nightnurse the night before. Nobody would dare get in a vehicle. Well the ones that clearly don't care up in Scotland will.

 

[colinm]

Never mind the English and Scottish laws on alcohol, all this talk of guns and crossbows - has the forum been infiltrated by damn Yankees for all this time?! Eek!

Not sure if it will 'disturb' you anymore to know that last night I was sat in my highseat/hide and posting between shooting.

 

[colinm]

The evidence would seem to suggest that lowering the limit has not had a positive effect. Deaths from DD have doubled. I'm not sure therefore that reducing the DD limit has been worthwhile. Most people thankfully don't drink drive these days including myself I feel I should reiterate once again but those that do this law has had no effect on it seems. All it's done is nock you out of kilter with England. Reducing it to zero as you suggest is crackers. You will have people losing the licences and livelihoods for taking a dose of nightnurse the night before. Nobody would dare get in a vehicle. Well the ones that clearly don't care up in Scotland will.

England and Wales have the highest drink drive limits in Europe, Scotland is on the higher side, many countries have zero tolerance.

Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) Drink Driving Limits across Europe

These are the maximum drink driving limits across Europe for drivers as well as special limits for commercial and novice drivers where applicable. Shown in grammes per litre. Standard BAC limits in…

etsc.eu

 

[Fisherman]

The evidence would seem to suggest that lowering the limit has not had a positive effect. Deaths from DD have doubled. I'm not sure therefore that reducing the DD limit has been worthwhile. Most people thankfully don't drink drive these days including myself I feel I should reiterate once again but those that do this law has had no effect on it seems. All it's done is nock you out of kilter with England. Reducing it to zero as you suggest is crackers. You will have people losing the licences and livelihoods for taking a dose of nightnurse the night before. Nobody would dare get in a vehicle. Well the ones that clearly don't care up in Scotland will.

Barry you are going off on a tangent here.
My argument has got nothing to do with these figures, it’s the fact that you argue that drink driving in Scotland should only result in a Scottish ban if you were below the English limit which does not apply in Scotland. Sadly it’s that kind of attitude towards us that leads half of Scotland wanting to be independent, something I am totally against.

But it’s a fact that lower limits in Scotland have lowered accidents involving drink driving by between 64 and 66%. The fact that non drink related accidents have increased is sad, and will have to be looked at. But it would be perfectly valid to argue that without these lower limits the figures would have been even higher.
Scotland has major issues with drugs, and alcohol abuse. We have the worst figures in Europe for both. We are trying to mitigate as much as possible the affects those issues can cause on our roads, and I and the vast majority in Scotland, wether we are SNP supporters or not, are fully behind these measures.
The whole of Europe can’t be wrong Barry and England right, or maybe you reckon you can. Some countries including Hungary, and Romania have zero limits, and some up here would even support this. A majority of Scots including myself want the current limits lowered not increased in line with yours.

What we don’t need are people coming up here questioning our laws or the punishments handed down if you breech them.
Barry I know how much you love my country, just try and respect the fact that we are a country, not governed by England. We entered the union of our own free will (or our landowners did), we are not subject to your laws whilst up here, and you are not subject to ours whilst down there. But when I travel to your country I am subject to your laws, and I don’t question what punishments I should receive if I breech them. I don’t say hey hold on it’s different down here, that’s not illegal in Scotland. I just take my punishment and if necessary show remorse if required.