Drink driving in Scotland

barryd said:
As far as I am aware nobody mentioned having an "English licence". Well I didn't. I also certainly said you should rightly be prosecuted in Scotland if over their limit. I don't agree however that any ban should be UK wide if under the English limit. That is all.
Click to expand...
Which is daft. you don't get to pick and choose what laws to abide by.
 
wildebus said:
Something that I have wondered about (on a theoretical level, not personal, btw) is a situation that is very possible where I live ref the different permitted levels...
Pre-observation #1: I *think* the various Police Services in the UK only have primary jurisdiction in their own operational area? So say a Met Police car chasing someone would hand over to a Thames Valley car once it went past a certain point on the M4 (and maybe Surrey Police in-between?) - unless they had prior permission to continue.
I also think this would be particularly so when crossing a Country Border where depending on direction of travel, Police Scotland would either take over or relinquish responsibility for apprehension, given different laws - and knowledge of those laws - may be applicable.

The nearest town to me is Coldstream. There are quite a few pubs there. Coldstream is in Scotland.
The nearest village to Coldstream is Cornhill. I am not sure if there is more than one drinking establishment in Cornhill. Cornhill is in England.

Cornhill resident drives to Coldstream, has a pint of lager and that takes him to an alcohol level of 70. He then proceeds to drive back home. If he was in England, he is under the limit. As he was in Scotland, he is over the limit.
sets off out the carpark and heads home. Now from the pub to the Border is maybe a mile at the most, so a very short time will be taken (important point).
A Police Scotland car sees him leave the pub and follows him and decides to pull him over as his brake lights are not working.
The driver decides he does not want to risk a breathalyser so continues over the bridge and pulls over for the police car into the layby, which happens to be just over the "welcome to England" sign (and quite a way past the "Welcome to Scotland" sign in the other direction as it happens).

1) Can the Police Scotland car continue the follow over the Country Border?
2) If they do, can they actually make a charge without the person first returning to Scotland? Note due to short distance there is no way they could have got permission from Northumberland Police to cross Border in their role as police.
3) If they detain the person to wait for local English Constabulary to attend, what then happens? The Brake Light offence is clear cut, but if they (either/both Police Services) suspect the driver of drinking, what happens? Can Police Scotland breathalyse someone in a different jurisdiction? If they pass that role to the other Police Service, their breathalyser is calibrated at a different level so the driver would pass.
4) Can they request (and would it be legal to do so) that the English Police officer escort the driver back over the border so that Police Scotland officer can test them in Scotland?

I find it an interesting question and this actually came to mind a few years ago when another law was passed in Scotland related to a situation regarding Smoking in a car with Minors, where no such law existed in England. The same scenario (but for a much more serious issues IMO) applies here.

But still doesn't change the fact ... don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.
Click to expand...
Too early in the morning for those kind of questions
 
colinm said:
Well just to muddy the waters.
In the village I live we have a 30mph limit, if I got banned for speeding in a 20mph limit should I still be allowed to drive in my village?
Click to expand...
Obviously, it would seem.

Did you know .... Cyclists are not bound by any posted speed limits, so when the limit is down to 20MPH (such as in my village and in all the towns in the Scottish Borders) it is perfectly legal for someone on a bicycle to overtake all the traffic (and chugging a beer at the same time ;) )
 
wildebus said:
Something that I have wondered about (on a theoretical level, not personal, btw) is a situation that is very possible where I live ref the different permitted levels...
Pre-observation #1: I *think* the various Police Services in the UK only have primary jurisdiction in their own operational area? So say a Met Police car chasing someone would hand over to a Thames Valley car once it went past a certain point on the M4 (and maybe Surrey Police in-between?) - unless they had prior permission to continue.
I also think this would be particularly so when crossing a Country Border where depending on direction of travel, Police Scotland would either take over or relinquish responsibility for apprehension, given different laws - and knowledge of those laws - may be applicable.

The nearest town to me is Coldstream. There are quite a few pubs there. Coldstream is in Scotland.
The nearest village to Coldstream is Cornhill. I am not sure if there is more than one drinking establishment in Cornhill. Cornhill is in England.

Cornhill resident drives to Coldstream, has a pint of lager and that takes him to an alcohol level of 70. He then proceeds to drive back home. If he was in England, he is under the limit. As he was in Scotland, he is over the limit.
sets off out the carpark and heads home. Now from the pub to the Border is maybe a mile at the most, so a very short time will be taken (important point).
A Police Scotland car sees him leave the pub and follows him and decides to pull him over as his brake lights are not working.
The driver decides he does not want to risk a breathalyser so continues over the bridge and pulls over for the police car into the layby, which happens to be just over the "welcome to England" sign (and quite a way past the "Welcome to Scotland" sign in the other direction as it happens).

1) Can the Police Scotland car continue the follow over the Country Border?
2) If they do, can they actually make a charge without the person first returning to Scotland? Note due to short distance there is no way they could have got permission from Northumberland Police to cross Border in their role as police.
3) If they detain the person to wait for local English Constabulary to attend, what then happens? The Brake Light offence is clear cut, but if they (either/both Police Services) suspect the driver of drinking, what happens? Can Police Scotland breathalyse someone in a different jurisdiction? If they pass that role to the other Police Service, their breathalyser is calibrated at a different level so the driver would pass.
4) Can they request (and would it be legal to do so) that the English Police officer escort the driver back over the border so that Police Scotland officer can test them in Scotland?

I find it an interesting question and this actually came to mind a few years ago when another law was passed in Scotland related to a situation regarding Smoking in a car with Minors, where no such law existed in England. The same scenario (but for a much more serious issues IMO) applies here.

But still doesn't change the fact ... don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.
Click to expand...
The simple answer is Yes the Police can cross borders.
www.gov.scot

Cross Border Arrest: letter of rights

A letter, provided to people held in police custody in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who are suspected of committing an offence in Scotland.
www.gov.scot www.gov.scot
 
Fazerloz said:
The simple answer is Yes the Police can cross borders.
www.gov.scot

Cross Border Arrest: letter of rights

A letter, provided to people held in police custody in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who are suspected of committing an offence in Scotland.
www.gov.scot www.gov.scot
Click to expand...
you are missing a point .... from your link ...
"As a result of a request from the police in Scotland andinformation provided by the police in Scotland, you have been arrested without a warrant undersection 137A of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 by an officer of this jurisdiction (England and Wales or Northern Ireland*) because there are reasonable grounds:"
I highlight in RED the key bit ... If you read what you linked to yourself, you would see that the it has to be the Police Force in the place you are stopped have to make the arrest, and then transfer you to the other juristiction to be re-arrested.
 
wildebus said:
Obviously, it would seem.

Did you know .... Cyclists are not bound by any posted speed limits, so when the limit is down to 20MPH (such as in my village and in all the towns in the Scottish Borders) it is perfectly legal for someone on a bicycle to overtake all the traffic (and chugging a beer at the same time ;) )
Click to expand...
I know about cyclists and speed limits, but as for being drunk whilst cycling, this is an offence in England, and I guess the same for Scotland.
Barry has made some errors in his posts, it is not a law in Scotland to allow someone to use your toilet, and you can take night nurse and pass a breathalyzer as it contains no alcohol, however take to much and you will fail a drugs test.
 
colinm said:
I know about cyclists and speed limits, but as for being drunk whilst cycling, this is an offence in England, and I guess the same for Scotland.
Barry has made some errors in his posts, it is not a law in Scotland to allow someone to use your toilet, and you can take night nurse and pass a breathalyzer as it contains no alcohol, however take to much and you will fail a drugs test.
Click to expand...
ah ... Drinking and being Drunk is not the same. I think the 80ml/60ml levels are in place for being in charge of a Motor Vehicle. They are not automatically applied to every single mode of transport you might be in charge of.... I said chugging a beer when passing the slower cars as it would be a double wind-up :)

I doubt the "using a toilet in Scotland" comment was taken any more seriously than the good old standby of being permitted to shoot a welshman with your bow and arrow in Carlisle on a Sunday or some such nonsense that is oft quoted. There are plenty of old laws that are still theroretically in force but would never ever be enforced.

A Zero alcohol level is problematical as the body itself can create alcohol depending on what has been eaten. Not to any level that would cause the slightest impairment, but could potentially register on a test.
 
This may be of interest to all those bemoaning the lower limit for Alcohol in Scotland ...

www.ukdrugtesting.co.uk

Alcohol Legislation UK | Drink Drive Levels | UKDrugTesting

Alcohol legislation UK Driving Limits (excluding Scotland) Blood Test - 80 milligrammes alcohol in 100 millilitres, 80mg/ml, 0.08 BAC, 0.8 Promille Breath Test
www.ukdrugtesting.co.uk www.ukdrugtesting.co.uk

and a Key takeaway from that page:
"United Kingdom 0.08% BAC for England & Wales & Northern Ireland (0.02%BAC for professional drivers). Scotland has reduced the limit to 0.05% BAC ( legislation became effective from 5 December 2014) Northern Ireland has just undergone a public consultation regarding its drink drive limits and it is likely they will be reduced to 0.05% in the near future."

Anyone picked up on the "0.02%BAC for professional drivers"? This is applicable throughout the UK.

I don't know how wide the scope is for a "professional drivers" but it could (should?) encompass Lorry Drivers, who could be in charge of 44 tonne juggernaughts.

Drink drive limits for professional drivers and operatives in UK​

  • Blood test - 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, 20mg/ml, 0.02 BAC, 0.2 Promille
  • Breath test - 9 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 milliliters of breath (BrAC)

Under the Railways Transportation Safety Bill, the UK government introduced lower drink drive limits for those working in the transport industry.

The lower drink drive limits in UK also apply to pilots, cabin crew, air traffic controllers, aircraft engineers, train drivers, and commercial seamen.

And this next point (highlighted in red) I think is why it is not a 0% limit and why (IMO) having a 0% limit in those countries that do is flawed and I would not be surprised gets medically challanged and genuine drink-drinkers can get let off. (there are many laws which have backfired as the legislators have tried to be too strict).

"The drink drive limit for professional drivers and operatives is just 0.02% - one quarter the UK Drink-Drive limit of 0.08% and the lowest detectable level possible allowing for the residual levels that can exist in anyone whether they've been drinking or not."
 
wildebus said:
And this next point (highlighted in red) I think is why it is not a 0% limit and why (IMO) having a 0% limit in those countries that do is flawed and I would not be surprised gets medically challanged and genuine drink-drinkers can get let off. (there are many laws which have backfired as the legislators have tried to be too strict).

"The drink drive limit for professional drivers and operatives is just 0.02% - one quarter the UK Drink-Drive limit of 0.08% and the lowest detectable level possible allowing for the residual levels that can exist in anyone whether they've been drinking or not."
Click to expand...
The thing is, if 0.02 is the lowest level detectable then 0% works well, there can be no argument over 'well I was right on the limit' or suchlike, you have tested at 0.02 or over which is over the limit.
 
colinm said:
The thing is, if 0.02 is the lowest level detectable then 0% works well, there can be no argument over 'well I was right on the limit' or suchlike, you have tested at 0.02 or over which is over the limit.
Click to expand...
but if you test at 0.01 due to natural alcohol production, a test that actually detects ANYTHING over 0.00 will give a positive result on someone who has had nothing to drink - so is a flawed positive. And if the countries that have 0% levels but don't have tests that can detect under 0.02, that 0% rule is a nonsense.

and note the FULL sentence you quoted from ... " and the lowest detectable level possible allowing for the residual levels that can exist in anyone whether they've been drinking or not.". The last bit is key.
 
Just don't stop driving and or drinking till you get back to England . The laws an ass!. tax ass tion you pay to play.
 
I don't think it's worth commenting further on this thread, everything seems to be taken out of context. :(
 
Hi am still trying to get my head round how anyone could drive on LSD! I know you wouldn’t get far on what was about in 60’s and 70’s, in fact you would have done well to actually get in a car at all!
 
Its not rocket science, if you drink, don't drive, no matter if you would pass some arbitrary test, it will affect you, no point in drinking if it didnt is there. I used to have a couple of pints and drive home, probably wouldn't have passed, different times, different thinking.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Back
Top