Wintering in Portugal

[daygoboy]

Not even Green! Appears that they're biding their time.

 

[Robina]

Not even Green! Appears that they're biding their time.

The paper version is actually properly green - something is amiss in the picture. It seems an inexperienced clerk put a cross through all the countries I did want. I should get the amended version on Monday. Those countries at the end in boxes are not generally offered without an extra premium.

 

[daygoboy]

The paper version is actually properly green - something is amiss in the picture. It seems an inexperienced clerk put a cross through all the countries I did want. I should get the amended version on Monday. Those countries at the end in boxes are not generally offered without an extra premium.

I'd be surprised if, even with an extra premium that they'd offer cover for some of those countries,
usually have to go to some specialist insurer or obtain at Frontier. Many UK insurers will not provide
cover for Morocco.
Actually similar to my Post #58 Green Card issued 1972. Shows a number of countries covered and some
crossed out. It was Portugal I was making sure of getting cover for because it wasn't long
before the Carnation Revolution in 1974 so a bit risky.

 

[Deleted member 74361]

As far as the 90 in 180 day rule I am proceeding along the John H line: I am preparing now assuming UK passport holders will be bound by it.

My preparation is that I am applying for a Polish Temporary Resident Permit, which will permit me to avoid the Schengen 90 day limit, which applies to whole area.

I will still be bound by the rule that any EU Resident is limited to a stay of 90 days in any other country, without registering in that country. This, as John H stated in the past, is breached frequently, because there are no border checks within Schengen and no dates recorded on which to prove a breach of the rule.

I did not have to take my spouse's advice - I took my own legal opinion.

Geoff

 

[daygoboy]

Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!

But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
for a fact.

 

[RV2MAX]

Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!

But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
for a fact.

A few foreign sets of no plates should sort the cross ref problem

 

[n brown]

years ago i overstayed my visa by a lot, and went to the estrangeiros office to sort it out. after a load of heavy stuff about what a criminal thing i'd done, i was fined £1.50
although there was a compound near Ferragudo that had new vehicles in it, including some smart campers,every time i passed

 

[daygoboy]

A few foreign sets of no plates should sort the cross ref problem

I'm ready matey I'm ready......I think :idea:

 

[John H]

years ago i overstayed my visa by a lot, and went to the estrangeiros office to sort it out. after a load of heavy stuff about what a criminal thing i'd done, i was fined £1.50
although there was a compound near Ferragudo that had new vehicles in it, including some smart campers,every time i passed

Different world today. You wouldn't be dealing with the Portuguese or Spanish authorities but with Brussels. It is Brussels that will issue the ETIAS authority for you to re-enter the EU - or not. In addition, don't forget the fact that overstaying invalidates any insurance policy you have. It would be nice if we could go back to the way things were before the EU but that ain't gonna happen

 

[daygoboy]

I still take issue with that JohnH! If I take a Policy out today and it says that
I have 180 days EU Cover, I have taken that advice in good faith. I've abided
and done what is expected of me regarded my side of the contract.

If I happen to be in the EU after March 31st and find myself to be 'Illegally' within the EU by remaining
after the 90 days, I cannot see how any court would say I should have reasonably
foreseen these circumstances and made alternative plans at cost and time to me. When
our very own government cannot advise me unambiguously what those arrangements
should be. Hence all the confusion we have at the present time.

I cannot see any court in the land expecting a lay citizen to be better informed than
HMG, or to possess the necessary degree of foresight of that which will actually happen,
never mind what to do about it.The most I would guess anyone could expect is, that I
make reasonable enquiries and efforts by way of contacting my insurers at around the time of
when reliable definitive information was too hand. Because at the present time my insurers seem to be conspicuously unforthcoming with info. They're probably awaiting news of a government hand out to
cover inconsequential losses themselves!

 

[iampatman]

Reluctantly I may have to resort to the 2 passport trick ie I will enter the
Schengen area with my Brit. Passport, then exit said area sans vehicle, before the 90th
day deadline. Then get 2nd passport stamped on reentry to Schengen
area for the next 90 days. I am counting on the computerisation system not
to be so sophisticated that it automatically cross references passports and vehicle
registration plates and establishes associationships, in particular UK plated MHs!

But then again I may do bugger all, and just bide my time wait and see what transpires
for a fact.

Never heard of that before - the 2 passport trick. I’m assuming you mean two UK passports?

Good luck with that

Pat

 

[John H]

I still take issue with that JohnH! If I take a Policy out today and it says that
I have 180 days EU Cover, I have taken that advice in good faith. I've abided
and done what is expected of me regarded my side of the contract.

If I happen to be in the EU after March 31st and find myself to be 'Illegally' within the EU by remaining
after the 90 days, I cannot see how any court would say I should have reasonably
foreseen these circumstances and made alternative plans at cost and time to me. When
our very own government cannot advise me unambiguously what those arrangements
should be. Hence all the confusion we have at the present time.

I cannot see any court in the land expecting a lay citizen to be better informed than
HMG, or to possess the necessary degree of foresight of that which will actually happen,
never mind what to do about it.The most I would guess anyone could expect is, that I
make reasonable enquiries and efforts by way of contacting my insurers at around the time of
when reliable definitive information was too hand. Because at the present time my insurers seem to be conspicuously unforthcoming with info. They're probably awaiting news of a government hand out to
cover inconsequential losses themselves!

You can take issue all you like but no insurance company is going to pay out if you are in the country illegally. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. The reason why no insurance company is willing to tell you anything definite is simply because no-one knows whether there will be a deal or not (or indeed if we will actually leave on 31st October) not because they don't know what the law will be if we leave with no deal. If we do leave with no deal then they will be able to be very specific on November 1st and will probably inform all their clients (although, technically, I don't believe there is any compulsion to do so; it is up to the client to make him or herself aware of the law). As for not being able to foresee a change in the law, we have had three years to prepare for a possible change in the law and anyone who has not researched all the possibilities has no-one to blame but themselves.

PS don't forget also that the police in the EU country you are in at the time will have the power to impound your vehicle if you are breaking the law. Too many potential consequences for me to risk breaking the law.

 

[daygoboy]

Never heard of that before - the 2 passport trick. I’m assuming you mean two UK passports?

Good luck with that

Pat

No 2 for different countries. I've known people in the past report a UK passport lost/stolen, then apply and be issued
with a replacement. All for the purposes of overcoming issues such as taking pet dogs over borders (in pre dog passport
days) and for other nefarious purposes, illegal of course.

 

[daygoboy]

Sorry a thread bump, but.

UK Immigration Act 2016. A brief synopsis, because?...boring read.

Even though a person may be an illegal migrant and driving in the
UK, and that person has an accident, then should the 3rd party be the innocent party he
may claim off the illegal migrants insurance. Even though the insurer has voided the migrant's
policy as a result of the migrant being unlawfully present in the UK. Ie the insurer must
pay out to the innocent 3rd party.
Effectively the migrant has 3rd party insurance even though of illegal status.

This condition applies even though the illegal migrant was aware of his status at
time of taking out the policy.

If the government can see fit to provide this concession to an illegal driver in the
UK, I'd expect no less for a UK citizen should he find himself similarly disposed in
the EU when judged to be an illegal immigrant due to remaining beyond the 90 days.
Possibly through no fault of his own (delayed ferry crossing for example)
After all the similar precedent has been established.

Nothing to prevent the insurer suing you to recover losses though. But I imagine
that will not be easy for an incident occurring in the EU area, to which we are no longer
a party particularly as regarding EU citizenship rights.

 

[John H]

Sorry a thread bump, but.

UK Immigration Act 2016. A brief synopsis, because?...boring read.

Even though a person may be an illegal migrant and driving in the
UK, and that person has an accident, then should the 3rd party be the innocent party he
may claim off the illegal migrants insurance. Even though the insurer has voided the migrant's
policy as a result of the migrant being unlawfully present in the UK. Ie the insurer must
pay out to the innocent 3rd party.
Effectively the migrant has 3rd party insurance even though of illegal status.

This condition applies even though the illegal migrant was aware of his status at
time of taking out the policy.

If the government can see fit to provide this concession to an illegal driver in the
UK, I'd expect no less for a UK citizen should he find himself similarly disposed in
the EU when judged to be an illegal immigrant due to remaining beyond the 90 days.
Possibly through no fault of his own (delayed ferry crossing for example)
After all the similar precedent has been established.

Nothing to prevent the insurer suing you to recover losses though. But I imagine
that will not be easy for an incident occurring in the EU area, to which we are no longer
a party particularly as regarding EU citizenship rights.

The third (innocent) party is covered but you (the illegal migrant) are not - and it would not be hard for your insurer (presumably in the UK) to reclaim the money they have paid out to the third party from you (presumably a UK resident) in a UK court. There is no getting away from it - if you are in the EU beyond the 90 day limit and therefore illegally, you will NOT be insured. At the very best, you will, under the circumstances you describe, find it very difficult to find insurance in the future - and you will have to pay an arm and a leg for it - as well as paying for the damage to your vehicle

PS if you are illegal only through unforeseen circumstances (illness, ferry cancellation etc) then you should inform your insurer straight away. There are, of course, provisions for exceptional circumstances but that is not what we were talking about at the start of all this.

 

[daygoboy]

The third (innocent) party is covered but you (the illegal migrant) are not - and it would not be hard for your insurer (presumably in the UK) to reclaim the money they have paid out to the third party.

That's what the EU Legal Minimum requirement is at the moment 3rd Party Cover for the Policy term.
I've often driven with minimum cover after the 90 days full cover stipulated on my policy has expired.
The thing is, in recognition of this fact I'm perfectly prepared to pay for my own expenses.

Anyway what I've shown by referring to the relevant section of the 2016 Act shows that even in
circumstances of being an illegal migrant doesn't always mean the insurer can wash his hands of responsibility in paying out a 3rd party.
Because many are likely to go over the 90 days and hence deemed illegal, my guess is that
government will recognise this and require insurers to make provision for this, especially
for the immediate period after Brexit. Conjecture. None of us no anything for certain even yet.

Whether the insurer will or can sue you for costs or how hard or determined he is, that's
another question, the €5 million claim is his problem. There's got to be enough worthwhile assets
to chase up for a start.

 

[daygoboy]

PS if you are illegal only through unforeseen circumstances (illness, ferry cancellation etc) then you should inform your insurer straight away. There are, of course, provisions for exceptional circumstances but that is not what we were talking about at the start of all this.

If you were to go right now and happen to run over the 90 days post 31st Oct. & still be travelling in the
EU area and as a result become considered illegal. Could you not deem that as unforeseen circumstances? You tell me for an actual fact which will we be, in or out of the EU (not which looks most likely)?

"Insurer please take note I have informed you that I may or may not be legal in the New Year,
what should I do please, advise"

 

[John H]

If you were to go right now and happen to run over the 90 days post 31st Oct. & still be travelling in the
EU area and as a result become considered illegal. Could you not deem that as unforeseen circumstances? You tell me for an actual fact which will we be, in or out of the EU (not which looks most likely)?

"Insurer please take note I have informed you that I may or may not be legal in the New Year,
what should I do please, advise"

Now you are being just plain silly. You know as well as I do that there are unforeseen circumstances that might cause you to overstay and you need to inform the insurer as soon as possible WHEN those circumstances arise. As for the rest of it, I think this has gone on more than long enough. You are prepared to take an obvious risk. I would rather not run the risk of a hefty bill for damage to my vehicle, being sued by my insurers for money they have had to pay out to a third party, finding it difficult or impossible to insure my vehicle in the future and having my vehicle impounded by foreign police. Others reading this will have already decoded which is the sensible approach for them to take - and I can't believe many of them will take your path.

 

[Deleted member 74361]

I posted earlier(post 67) that

'My preparation is that I am applying for a Polish Temporary Resident Permit, which will permit me to avoid the Schengen 90 day limit, which applies to whole area.'

Yesterday this application ran into difficulties.

Polish Government will not process an application from a EU Citizen because currently such person does not need a Permit. This despite my pointing out that UK passport holders have been issued with the equivalent (Permit de Sejours) in France.

Even registering my address here took up 1/2 hour and about 20 pages of paper(incl. copies). Basia's Sister's application to renew her Polish passport took about 50 pages. Where do they store all this bumpf? I am thinking of buying storage units to lease to the government. Maybe they input it all into computers - if so why the hell do they not put it in directly? Oh, I know, then the stamps and ink pads would be redundant.

I understand where Franz Kafka got the material for his books - 60 years ago, 'Plus ca Change'

Geoff

 

[daygoboy]

Wait until you're no longer an EU Citizen probably an easy process then,
possibly from a prison cell
It's mostly in the lap of the Gods or sods, until that fateful date has arrived all
is speculation. Time to relax.