Wintering in Portugal

[John H]

I have been trying to find out from my boy what he thinks will happen he is in the Guardia Civil Trafico, Because I have a friend that comes over in September for 2
months traveling round Spain then leaves his motorhome on our land then fly's back for a month for work then comes back after Christmas and go's to Portugal for the winter and stays at our place down there, My boy said at the moment no one knows what will happen he said that they have been taking about is ticket machine giving out a ticket at the ports with a date and time on them these you must keep in the van under your tax disc on your windscreen. :mad1:

If there is no deal, your passport will be stamped on arrival and so you will be carrying a permanent record with you of whether or not you are legal.

 

[John H]

Perhaps the simplest way to look at this is that if there is no deal, then, from 1st November 2019, the same rules will apply to us as apply to, say, Americans and Australians now. Nothing new needs to be invented; the rules for citizens of non-EU countries are clear. So if you want to know what will happen, ask an Australian etc.

If there is a deal (looking unlikely at present) then it clearly all depends on the nature of that deal but the transition period (to end December 2020) will kick in and, in effect, nothing will change until then.

 

[daygoboy]

I think you miss the point as far as insurance goes. If you are in the EU illegally (as you would be after 90 days in any 180) then there is no way you can get an extension. Your insurance company will not insure you if you are breaking the law.

Similarly with medical cover.

Firstly the insurers would have to prove you were in the country illegally.

An insurance extension could easily be provided. Cases of special circumstances
could be enacted say in event of breakdown and repair, hospitalisation, then driving
of a vehicle beyond a specified period could easily be introduced, the insurance
companies would no doubt be happy to oblige with a suitable premium payment.
Think of it like driving your car to an MOT station with a prearranged booking...legal,
but if not prearranged illegal.

You redacted the important point I made, and that is the contract I just signed with
my insurer is based on conditions as of now, they can't just change it without notice,
so I'm ok for nearly a year as far as I'm concerned. At next renewal I'll take decisions
on the situation as it stands at that time, which should have then resolved any issues...hopefully.

Have you stayed longer than 90 days in say, Spain with or without
van, if yes, were you strictly legal, and what did your insurer have
to say.

 

[daygoboy]

I have been trying to find out from my boy what he thinks will happen he is in the Guardia Civil Trafico, Because with a date and time on them these you must keep in the van under your tax disc on your windscreen. :mad1:

Your lad is going to be spending weeks looking for a tax disc on a UK car these days ken:lol-061:

 

[John H]

Firstly the insurers would have to prove you were in the country illegally.

An insurance extension could easily be provided. Cases of special circumstances
could be enacted say in event of breakdown and repair, hospitalisation, then driving
of a vehicle beyond a specified period could easily be introduced, the insurance
companies would no doubt be happy to oblige with a suitable premium payment.
Think of it like driving your car to an MOT station with a prearranged booking...legal,
but if not prearranged illegal.

You redacted the important point I made, and that is the contract I just signed with
my insurer is based on conditions as of now, they can't just change it without notice,
so I'm ok for nearly a year as far as I'm concerned. At next renewal I'll take decisions
on the situation as it stands at that time, which should have then resolved any issues...hopefully.

Have you stayed longer than 90 days in say, Spain with or without
van, if yes, were you strictly legal, and what did your insurer have
to say.

Proof is no problem. You will either have a stamp in your passport on entry or (if you entered prior to 31st October) you will have 90 days from 1st November.

Your contract with your insurance company is based on you keeping within the law of whichever country you are in. If the law changes or if you claim not to know the law, it makes not a jot of difference. It is up to you to keep appraised of changes in the law and you won't get away with it if you claim you did not know. You will always be able to find an insurance company willing to take your premium but the crunch (literally) comes when you try to make a claim and we all know that insurance companies need very few excuses to avoid paying out. Being in the country illegally (easy to prove) is the perfect "out" for them. Throw away your money if you like, but I won't be joining you.

Yes, I have regularly stayed more than 90 days in Spain and my insurance company provides me with insurance for 12 months cover within the EU. That can and will change if we leave without a deal.

 

[daygoboy]

Yes, I have regularly stayed more than 90 days in Spain and my insurance company provides me with insurance for 12 months cover within the EU. That can and will change if we leave without a deal.

So I presume you applied for residency to comply with the law?

You worry too much over things that may happen, no one is in
agreement over what may or may not happen, I just can't be
arsed preparing for the unknown.

 

[Robina]

No you can't spend six months as you imply.

It's a moving timescale so once you've spent your 90 days you have to leave the EU for a further 90 days before you can return.

Yes - I was not specific about that but you can spend up to six months in the EU in any one year. Just not six months in a row.

 

[John H]

So I presume you applied for residency to comply with the law?

You worry too much over things that may happen, no one is in
agreement over what may or may not happen, I just can't be
arsed preparing for the unknown.

No - as was said earlier, the requirement for EU nationals to register after 90 days is honoured in the breach. But that only applies to EU nationals - and largely because it would be difficult to prove where you were anyway. All that changes when we become non-EU citizens and have our passports stamped. Remember, the 90 day rule applies to the whole of the Schengen Zone, so it doesn't matter whether you are in one member state or several. Once your 90 days are up you are illegal.

I am going to Spain this winter and I won't be worrying. However, I also believe in sensible planning and, while I suspect that many Brits will find themselves in deep water by burying their heads in the sand, I will be fully prepared. And that includes coming back to the UK in mid-February if necessary.

 

[daygoboy]

No - as was said earlier, the requirement for EU nationals to register after 90 days is honoured in the breach. But that only applies to EU nationals - and largely because it would be difficult to prove where you were.

I am going to Spain this winter and I won't be worrying.

No, you reply, so as far as your insurance is concerned are you 100% legal, don't forget
big claim= big investigation Drive safely!

You won't be worrying, (future tense) probably because you're worrying now. Whereas I'm
not worrying now, because there may not be anything to worry about in the future. Which of
course is what you wish for? unless that is you're harbouring a little Schaudenfruedeishness!
Apologise for a touch of the Donald Rumsfelds there!


A difference in approach, we'll just have to see.

 

[rugbyken]

i’ve been trying to persuade jan to spend a couple of months in morocco for years might get somewhere with that now, a few years ago there was a motion raised at the brittany ferries shareholders meeting regarding indirect ferries from france to morocco starting from poole uk to st nazaire - Gijon - tangier’s , only the st nazaire gijon section ever got tried & that got taken up by a different company & folded after about one season, the whole sea journey would have been 1700 mls & i’m not that good a sailor ,
brittany ferries have one new huge ferry a year on order for the next 5 years so they think we’ll still be travelling,

 

[John H]

No, you reply, so as far as your insurance is concerned are you 100% legal, don't forget
big claim= big investigation Drive safely!

You won't be worrying, (future tense) probably because you're worrying now. Whereas I'm
not worrying now, because there may not be anything to worry about in the future. Which of
course is what you wish for? unless that is you're harbouring a little Schaudenfruedeishness!
Apologise for a touch of the Donald Rumsfelds there!


A difference in approach, we'll just have to see.

One of the advantages of being married to a lawyer is that she reads all the small print. Yes, I am 100% legal and intend to stay that way.

And there will not be anything to worry about if you are fully prepared for all the eventualities. We will not be caught out but I am willing to bet my pension that there are plenty who will because they refuse to consider the obvious. Taking sensible precautions does not equal worrying.

My advice to anyone is that they should check what MAY lie ahead and that way they are less likely to come a cropper. There are enough blind idiots leading this country at the moment without us adding to that number

 

[daygoboy]

iÂ’ve been trying to persuade jan to spend a couple of months in morocco for years might get somewhere with that now, a few years ago there was a motion raised at the brittany ferries shareholders meeting regarding indirect ferries from france to morocco starting from poole uk to st nazaire - Gijon - tangierÂ’s , only the st nazaire gijon section ever got tried & that got taken up by a different company & folded after about one season, the whole sea journey would have been 1700 mls & iÂ’m not that good a sailor ,
brittany ferries have one new huge ferry a year on order for the next 5 years so they think weÂ’ll still be travelling,

A decade or so ago Acciona gave the 'Ferry UK to Morocco' idea a go, even
got to publishing a website with booking pages, I tried to get a booking or at
least a price. But it folded up without a single sailing. I guess the bean counters
got their abacus's out and decided it wasn't a viable proposition.
Some think a similar service might be started up, given the present circs. but I
bet it won't be properly considered until B****T is settled, so I wouldn't hold
my breath!

 

[daygoboy]

One of the advantages of being married to a lawyer is that she reads all the small print. Yes, I am 100% legal and intend to stay that way.

And there will not be anything to worry about if you are fully prepared for all the eventualities. We will not be caught out but I am willing to bet my pension that there are plenty who will because they refuse to consider the obvious. Taking sensible precautions does not equal worrying.

My advice to anyone is that they should check what MAY lie ahead and that way they are less likely to come a cropper. There are enough blind idiots leading this country at the moment without us adding to that number

Prepared for all the eventualities eh? We shall see, I'm never 100% certain and I
certainly know of lawyers that read the small print and sometimes misinterpret it.
Taking things as they come gives me a mindset that allows manoeuvring should circumstances
dictate. I give no advice to anyone, just state what I'm going to do at this moment with the limited
information I have to hand, because blind idiots abound & from every quarter on this particular issue.

 

[John H]

Prepared for all the eventualities eh? We shall see, I'm never 100% certain and I
certainly know of lawyers that read the small print and sometimes misinterpret it.
Taking things as they come gives me a mindset that allows manoeuvring should circumstances
dictate. I give no advice to anyone, just state what I'm going to do at this moment with the limited
information I have to hand, because blind idiots abound & from every quarter on this particular issue.

Of course, no-one can be 100% sure of anything but, as the boy sprouts always say: "be prepared". Some like to take risks; others prefer not to be taken by surprise. You are in the former group; I am in the latter. Those who take a "devil-may-care" attitude to post ****** travel in the EU may get away with it the first time but are likely to have their options limited when they are refused an ETIAS stamp to get into the EU next year. I will not be in that group.

PS the information is not limited if you take the trouble to look for it.

 

[daygoboy]

'Yes I am 100% certain,' your use, and 'honoured in the breach' not exactly
a strict legal term, more suggestive of winging it. But nevertheless something
I'm counting on should the 90 day requirement be implemented due to a hard
one!.
I just don't see 5000 overstaying motorhoming pensioners queuing up at the
Spanish frontier posts waiting to be manacled somehow. There will almost certainly an
'honouring in the breach'. If not, then I can only hope that there's WIFI connection at
the Penitentiario to pass the time.
This is not to say I won't be making different decisions in 6 months time,
or the following year though, now that would be stupid, because we should all be up to
speed by then, and well informed!

 

[John H]

'Yes I am 100% certain,' your use, and 'honoured in the breach' not exactly
a strict legal term, more suggestive of winging it. But nevertheless something
I'm counting on should the 90 day requirement be implemented due to a hard
one!.
I just don't see 5000 overstaying motorhoming pensioners queuing up at the
Spanish frontier posts waiting to be manacled somehow. There will almost certainly an
'honouring in the breach'. If not, then I can only hope that there's WIFI connection at
the Penitentiario to pass the time.
This is not to say I won't be making different decisions in 6 months time,
or the following year though, now that would be stupid, because we should all be up to
speed by then, and well informed!

The "100% certain" referred to the current legality of my vehicle insurance. That I am sure of - providing I keep to the rules. I am just as sure that my insurance (and everybody else's) will not pay out in the event of an accident if you overstay your legal limit in any country that you are entitled to drive in.

I never claimed that "honoured in the breach" was a legal term - simply a de facto one. Some of us have indeed approached the Spanish authorities in the past and been told that we should not bother. That is not "winging it". Those who wing it might get away with it some times but that does not make it a sensible approach.

I also never said that hundreds of Brits will be manacled at Spanish ports - or anywhere else. In fact I said that, if you are lucky enough to not have an accident or get ill, you may think you have got away with it - until it comes to trying to get into the EU next year.

PS if you do overstay then I would choose your ferry route home with care. While the Spanish are well-known for not imposing penalties, the Dutch and French take a more robust attitude. I recently read of an American tourist who was extremely indignant at having "illegal immigrant" actually stamped in her passport by the Dutch authorities

 

[daygoboy]

Ah John, John, you obviously didn't read my post #17 ! Regarding current
insurance legalities.
You've approached the Spanish authorities?, and they said don't bother,
presumably this is in writing? Otherwise not necessarily worth the paper
it isn't written on. Not that I care.

I never said I was quoting you, as regards the 5,000, that's just
my imagination, combined with the loaves and fishes fairy story!
I personally don't see that sort of thing eventuating for the extent of
an unofficial transitional period, even if no official period. exists.

I'm very familiar with the Spanish character, I'm counting on a live and
let live approach, for a while anyway, and at least until the police and border
authorities show any real concern.

 

[John H]

Ah John, John, you obviously didn't read my post #17 ! Regarding current
insurance legalities.
You've approached the Spanish authorities?, and they said don't bother,
presumably this is in writing? Otherwise not necessarily worth the paper
it isn't written on. Not that I care.

I never said I was quoting you, as regards the 5,000, that's just
my imagination, combined with the loaves and fishes fairy story!
I personally don't see that sort of thing eventuating for the extent of
an unofficial transitional period, even if no official period. exists.

I'm very familiar with the Spanish character, I'm counting on a live and
let live approach, for a while anyway, and at least until the police and border
authorities show any real concern.

Yes I did read your post no.17 and answered it. You seem to be conveniently ignoring the oft-repeated fact that if you break the law then the insurance company will not pay out - regardless of how long you think you are covered for and regardless of how much you have paid in premiums.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make about registering with the authorities but it doesn't matter anyway because a completely different situation applies with non-EU citizens - which is what we are likely to be after 31st October.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter what penalty may or may not be imposed at the port but what matters is:

a) the lack of valid insurance for vehicle and medical needs; and
b) the granting (or lack of it) of permission to re-enter the EU under the ETIAS scheme.

It matters not a jot that the Spanish have a live and let live attitude. They are not the problem.

 

[daygoboy]

Let me make it clear this is what 'I' will be doing at the immediate time....nothing.

Between now and when I depart in November I will keep a weather eye out for
any information or advice that is helpful and from an authoritive source eg a
foreign government dept. I will act sensibly on this information.

When I go, I will go with the intention of staying c. 5 months, When I arrive I will note any news
of troubles being experienced by UK citizens at borders as a result of overstaying or otherwise,
there may be none. If the authorities are taking draconian actions then I will consider
leaving before my 90 days are up, I'm hopeful for period of grace, there's no guarantee
but definitely a possibility, the Spanish are relaxed on 90 days at the present time
they may be in the future. As I've previously said I'm leaving with the intention and
mindset of staying 5 months not 3 months.


EHIC card I will do nothing about this at the moment. It may well be that the EU will
let us retain this right, (costs them nothing). In November, again when things
are clearer I will consider my options.

Vehicle Insurance, my current policy covers me, 180 days in EU no distinction made on
whether I'm there illegally or not.
Green Card my current Insurance states that my documents are a replacement for this.

IDP I'm considering getting this before November. But not just yet, no panic.

As I've stated next season is a different question altogether, we should be much better
informed by then. Naturally I will deal with the situation as it then stands.


And that's the last words on what I'm doing or not doing.

 

[John H]

Let me make it clear this is what 'I' will be doing at the immediate time....nothing.

Between now and when I depart in November I will keep a weather eye out for
any information or advice that is helpful and from an authoritive source eg a
foreign government dept. I will act sensibly on this information.

When I go, I will go with the intention of staying c. 5 months, When I arrive I will note any news
of troubles being experienced by UK citizens at borders as a result of overstaying or otherwise,
there may be none. If the authorities are taking draconian actions then I will consider
leaving before my 90 days are up, I'm hopeful for period of grace, there's no guarantee
but definitely a possibility, the Spanish are relaxed on 90 days at the present time
they may be in the future. As I've previously said I'm leaving with the intention and
mindset of staying 5 months not 3 months.


EHIC card I will do nothing about this at the moment. It may well be that the EU will
let us retain this right, (costs them nothing). In November, again when things
are clearer I will consider my options.

Vehicle Insurance, my current policy covers me, 180 days in EU no distinction made on
whether I'm there illegally or not.
Green Card my current Insurance states that my documents are a replacement for this.

IDP I'm considering getting this before November. But not just yet, no panic.

As I've stated next season is a different question altogether, we should be much better
informed by then. Naturally I will deal with the situation as it then stands.


And that's the last words on what I'm doing or not doing.

You are perfectly entitled to do what you like. My point is that sensible people plan ahead - which is what you appear to be doing despite your protestations that you are doing nothing!

Just a few points:

1. The EU do not administer EHIC, so it is not up to them whether it continues but the conditions for being allowed to use EHIC are that the participating country has to accept freedom of movement. Since we will not if Boris gets his way, then EHIC is unlikely to continue under a no-deal situation.

2. Whatever you vehicle insurance policy says, you will NOT be covered if you are in a country illegally. That I can be 100% sure of!

3. As I have said before, the Spanish may well be relaxed about 90 days but they are not the problem.

4. It may not be up to you to decide your future plans. If you have broken the three month rule then you may not be granted permission to re-enter the EU under the ETIAS scheme which comes into force at the end of December 2020.

But let's look on the bright side - Parliament may yet force Boris to act sensibly and we may not leave the EU for a long time yet!