Wales 20mph limit starts Sept 17th - a heads-up

[GWAYGWAY]

the Archbishop of Canterbury got done for 23mph in London and the fine was quite high for what I can walk slowly at over the limit, 3 mph and £150 plus costs seemed a bit over the top.

 

[marchie]

Accelerate to 30/40 then brake for the next traffic light, roundabout, stop sign or car in your way is not terribly efficient I would suggest.

Depends upon the distance between the traffic controls, and the speed of other vehicles ...

Steve

 

[wighttyne]

Just a warning for all you Englanders and Scotlanders (edit: and Irish of course) that a default 20mph speed limit starts throughout Wales on September 17th.
So, wherever the default limit was 30 - as defined by lit street lights - will now be 20.

Just to be helpful, and in a move guaranteed to catch you out, the Welsh government are taking down most existing 20 signs. New 20 signs are being erected all over the place, including on A roads but, if you don't see a 20 sign, don't assume it doesn't apply. To further confuse, county councils are able to define sections of road which are exempt from this new law. All of this, of course, at enormous expense.

Anyway, just be careful out there, guys and girls.

 

[wighttyne]

What I find unbelievable is they put these speed restrictions in place in built up areas then as you come out of them they hang onto 40 and 50mph for as long as they can on the main roads but if you turn off onto a side road often just narrow country lanes you are straight back up to the national speed limit of 60…..!
Do they really think:-
the “boy racers” will take notice
White van man will stop using their mobile phones
Foreign HGV drivers will all stop watching tv as they drive
what happenEd to driving to the road conditions, thinking about the potential hazards in front and using common sense?

 

[marchie]

On a connected issue, the Glasgow LEZ [which is now subject to Judicial Review], bans Euro 5 diesels and old'ish petrol vehicles [but exempts Fairground Vehicles and their piggbacked generators, 'Classic Vehicles', including those that need to use leaded fuel, 2 stroke engines and all motorbikes, whilst also allowing domestic woodstoves/logburners each one of which produces as much pollution as 18 cars or 6 HGVs]. The expectation is that people will use public transport. The place with the highest pollution mean concentration in Central Glasgow iwas Glasgow Queen Street Train Station ...

Meanwhile, air transport and commercial marine operations enjoy VED exemptions on fuel, despite the same lung destroying pollution they bring to our everyday lives [I am aware that the air VED exemption is europe-wide}. But motorists are just an easy target for bandwagon [non Euro 6 powered] hopping hypocritical politicians to jump aboard, with free tickets paid for by the beneficiaries of the exempted sectors

Steve

 

[Norfolk NewBoy]

There are a couple of arguments being proffered here:

1) "there's no point in me doing anything because lots of others are doing so much more to create pollution"; otherwise known as the philosophy of despair. Do you drop litter in your local street? (because everyone else does!) Do you empty your waste cassette in the nearest watercourse? (because other people do!) As Tesco's used to say "every little helps" and if I can reduce the harm that I cause to my fellow citizens by driving a little bit slower (although the article posted previously shows that 20 mph is rarely achieved in built up areas and 30mph is very rare) then I am happy to do it.

2) "reducing the speed limit will actually cause more harm that is already present". That seems to be open to debate, with discussion of accelerating/braking, efficiency of engines at different speeds etc. BUT again, look at the evidence. IF most city centre journeys have average speeds below 20mph, then imposing that limit is likely to lead to less acceleration/braking; IF you're already travelling at these lower speeds then the engine efficiency is already at these values. For areas where you used to be able to achieve 30mph, perhaps there will be a problem: presumably this will be monitored

Simply stating our own opinions will never move the debate forward. It is always possible to assign other aims and ambitions to decisions made by public authorities but the majority of people who hold these offices have always, IMO, been doing things which they believed were for the advantage of their constituents.

Gordon

 

[colinm]

2) "reducing the speed limit will actually cause more harm that is already present". That seems to be open to debate, with discussion of accelerating/braking, efficiency of engines at different speeds etc. BUT again, look at the evidence. IF most city centre journeys have average speeds below 20mph, then imposing that limit is likely to lead to less acceleration/braking; IF you're already travelling at these lower speeds then the engine efficiency is already at these values. For areas where you used to be able to achieve 30mph, perhaps there will be a problem: presumably this will be monitored

I have searched for studies on 20mph limits, they are few and far between, only one showed an increase in emissions, but this was not due to the 20 limit, it was enforcing it with speed bumps which causes traffic to slow and then accelerate.

 

[marchie]

There are a couple of arguments being proffered here:

1) "there's no point in me doing anything because lots of others are doing so much more to create pollution"; otherwise known as the philosophy of despair. Do you drop litter in your local street? (because everyone else does!) Do you empty your waste cassette in the nearest watercourse? (because other people do!) As Tesco's used to say "every little helps" and if I can reduce the harm that I cause to my fellow citizens by driving a little bit slower (although the article posted previously shows that 20 mph is rarely achieved in built up areas and 30mph is very rare) then I am happy to do it.

2) "reducing the speed limit will actually cause more harm that is already present". That seems to be open to debate, with discussion of accelerating/braking, efficiency of engines at different speeds etc. BUT again, look at the evidence. IF most city centre journeys have average speeds below 20mph, then imposing that limit is likely to lead to less acceleration/braking; IF you're already travelling at these lower speeds then the engine efficiency is already at these values. For areas where you used to be able to achieve 30mph, perhaps there will be a problem: presumably this will be monitored

Simply stating our own opinions will never move the debate forward. It is always possible to assign other aims and ambitions to decisions made by public authorities but the majority of people who hold these offices have always, IMO, been doing things which they believed were for the advantage of their constituents.

Gordon

That's not the arguments I was making. All of the exempt categories for LEZ in Glasgow produce the same type of pollution, and more of it in some cases. All of the categories should be treated equally so that the whole population can see the principle of fairness for the greater good of our society. To use your analogy in Point 1, some are being penalised for emptying the cassette containing urine down a sewage manhole, whilst others are allowed openly to dump their cassette of black waste in the water course and/or the street. Where I quoted statistics, they are from an article in the Guardian, Woodstove Pllution July 2023 air conditioning energy consumptionn , or from a World Economic Forum Paper on air conditioning pollution/energy consumption. The latter is air conditioning energy consumption and pollution

The Glasgow Judicial Review will consider the availability or otherwise of Impact Assessments, Studies, other data etc, so that there is evidence of benefit from following the Emissions Zone policy. The absence of such studies leads to commentators having to express their own opinions. On a final point re politicians good faith, a certain Grant Shapps [or Michael Green, Sebastian Fox or Corrine Stockheath] wrote to Mr Khan when Transport Secretary stipulating that UK Government financial support for Transport for London ['TfL'] was conditional upon TfL expanding the ULEZ. The sme Mr Shapps who know accuses Mr Khan of sperheading a war on motorists. Which takes us back to the Bandwagon ...

All I want to see and experience is a consistent, equitable, lobby and corruption free Emissions Control Policy. No more, no less

Steve

 

[Canalsman]

Nobody in this thread is focused on the most important aspect by far.

The greater the speed at which a vehicle travels the greater the effect if a pedestrian is hit.

I speak from experience.

I was hit by a car whilst crossing a road intersection in an urban area. The driver did not see me.

I don't know how fast the driver was travelling but given that they were approaching the intersection from a side road I imagine they were travelling at less than 30mph.

The reason that I don't know how fast the car was travelling is because I have no recollection of the accident.

I came to in the middle of the main road having been flung some 30 feet or so by the impact. I was lucky I wasn't run over by traffic on that road.

I suffered severe head, shoulder and upper leg injuries in addition to which I lost my hearing in one ear for several months.

If the driver had been driving at 30mph I suspect I would have been killed.

Speed kills.

The only really consequential argument for reducing speed in urban areas is to reduce accident severity.

I have no sympathy with people that speed in urban areas.

I am no paragon of virtue but I can with total honesty say that I have never exceeded the speed limit in urban areas except for a few occasions when concentration wandered. That was true before I was injured.

Now I can say in all honesty that I NEVER exceed the speed limit.

If you are ever tempted to exceed the 30 or 20mph limits just consider what the consequences might be.

 

[Norfolk NewBoy]

All I want to see and experience is a consistent, equitable, lobby and corruption free Emissions Control Policy.

Steve

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a NATIONAL policy (even separate ones for Scotland, Wales, NI would be an improvement on what we have currently).
Owning a sub-3.5T MH I would plump for the Newcastle model

Gordon

 

[Millie Master]

What I find unbelievable is they put these speed restrictions in place in built up areas then as you come out of them they hang onto 40 and 50mph for as long as they can on the main roads but if you turn off onto a side road often just narrow country lanes you are straight back up to the national speed limit of 60…..!
Do they really think:-
the “boy racers” will take notice
White van man will stop using their mobile phones
Foreign HGV drivers will all stop watching tv as they drive
what happenEd to driving to the road conditions, thinking about the potential hazards in front and using common sense?

I couldn't have put it better myself, the whole thing about speed restrictions has gone totally bonkers!

 

[marchie]

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a NATIONAL policy (even separate ones for Scotland, Wales, NI would be an improvement on what we have currently).
Owning a sub-3.5T MH I would plump for the Newcastle model

Gordon

I agree, but with the caveat that it would need to be a genuine agreement, rather than an imposed by the largest player solution, and backed up by evidence up and down the chain. There is ULEZ coverage in today's Guardian where many Uxbridge residents are angry at the £12.50 charge because no levy is made on Heathrow's activities next door, where you see the pollution pouring out of planes taking off under full load!

And, in sunny Fife, we too have the problem 2 miles or so from our property [where we got rid of the 3 months long Summer Fair a week ago with over 60 ancient HGVs/Vans/Tractor Units replete with Generators, about 70 metres from our front door ...] of going from a 20mph to a 50mph limit at the base of a hill, so you have to open the throttle for the climb on the A921 to Kirkcaldy, and from a 20mph to a 40mph limit heading the other way towards Burntisland. And everybody puts the foot to the floor after a 20mph zone of about 3/4 mile. This has been dug up for footpath widening, followed by Gas Mains replacement, followed by Fibre Broadband excavations of 100-200 metres at a time. And now, about 1 week after the Broadband excavations, Scottish Water have entered stage right, armed with more bloody traffic barriers and Traffic Lights to hinder the traffic progress, leading to drivers openng the throttle still wider in sheer frustration at the continual blockages ... It's why Fife stands for Flaming Idiots Flaming Everywhere [other F words are available]

London £12.50 per diem charge; Newcastle Free of Charge after registration; Glasgow banned from entry full stop and rapidly accelerating fines imposed for every transgression. Meanwhile, Glasgow is spending over £100,000 per month hiring vehicles because its own fleet does not meet the LEZ criteria ... That's what an alliance with the Greens and their evidence free ideology gets you ...

Steve

 

[witzend]

Speed cam on the main antrim rd just round the corner from me this morning, lucky i was doing 26mph in the 30 zone, saved me tossing a hand grenade in the back window LOL.

Lots of speed cameras in France Being burnt, painted and turned over into ditch's

 

[trevskoda]

Lots of speed cameras in France Being burnt, painted and turned over into ditch's

They do that here,no speed or tax catchers in republican zones or on the shankhill rd/west Belfast/east Belfast, but where i live the van is out to catch the law abiding and pay up folks, i do agree with some s limits, but the boy racers dont seem to care, i here them doing doughnuts late at night behind me on back roads.

 

[GMJ]

I live in rural Carmarthenshire and am all for the 20mph limit in the villages around here. Whether this will stop the tractors speeding or not will depend on whether it is policed I guess. In general I support the policy however I agree that by exception some areas should probably be exempt. I am sure that there will be the ability within this new law to apply common sense by councils on a location-by-location basis.

I hit a child around 6-7 years ago who ran out between 2 parked cars without looking, giving me little chance of stopping. As I was doing less than 20mph he bounced off and was taken to hospital just as a precaution. Had I been going faster I have no doubt that my speed would have damaged him plus he may well have bounced into oncoming traffic.

NB I was lucky as a chap in a trade van behind saw it all and backed up the fact that the lad ran out without looking and that we were travelling at a low speed.

 

[gasgas]

If I lived in Wales, it would make me get a decent push bike and ride around overtaking all the cars and trucks. If I needed local transport I would get an electric wheelchair thingy. If I need to go to another town I would send a postcard and take 3 separate buses because it would take all day to do 50 miles. Bus, truck and car repair garages will have a field day changing DPFs, Cats and computers in vehicles. Owners will get fed up with huge bills and say goodbye to their travelling freedom.

As for Euro7 (this is the first time I have heard the term) monitoring tyre and brake emissions, I haven't read anything here about the pollution and emissions caused in the manufacture of electric cars. And why does this tiny island think we can make any difference to world pollution when China, India and the USA share the same planet?

I once hit a child (using my car, not my fist ) when he ran out from a line of parked cars. It was in a narrow slow residential street somewhere in London. I stopped, jumped out, saw the child lying motionless on the road. I looked up and saw telephone wires running to the nearest house (this was in 1972, before mobile phones were invented - unless you were a member of the Government of course). I ran up the path and just opened the front door and shouted " I've knocked down a child, where's your phone?" ' In the front room'. So I called an ambulance and police, they came, the boy came round and was carted off to hospital. Later that day I visited the boy in hospital, he had recovered and was absolutely fine, the Police reassured me that I hadn't done anything wrong, the parents were happy that I had taken immediate action. The boy left a small dent in the bonnet of my mini where his head hit it. Obviously I wasn't going very fast, but fast enough to make a small dent.

Anyway, I was thinking of going round Wales in my motorhome soon - but obviously not now I have read this. I don't fancy spending all day in 2nd gear reading the paper and drinking a coffee while driving. Or more realistically falling asleep with the strain of holding my head sideways, one eye on the speedo and the other on the road. I'm going to have to wend my very slow way down to Dover in order to get to a country where I can travel more than 80 miles in a day.

Will Sat Navs now have their software adjusted to beep at you when you go over 20?

 

[mark61]

Luckily my van sits happily at 20MPH in 3rd.

 

[GMJ]

Also fortunate is the fact that there are loads of wide open spaces so no worries about the 20mph limit.

 

[trevskoda]

I live in rural Carmarthenshire and am all for the 20mph limit in the villages around here. Whether this will stop the tractors speeding or not will depend on whether it is policed I guess. In general I support the policy however I agree that by exception some areas should probably be exempt. I am sure that there will be the ability within this new law to apply common sense by councils on a location-by-location basis.

I hit a child around 6-7 years ago who ran out between 2 parked cars without looking, giving me little chance of stopping. As I was doing less than 20mph he bounced off and was taken to hospital just as a precaution. Had I been going faster I have no doubt that my speed would have damaged him plus he may well have bounced into oncoming traffic.

NB I was lucky as a chap in a trade van behind saw it all and backed up the fact that the lad ran out without looking and that we were travelling at a low speed.

It is your responsabilty to look for childreen even if they run out from nowhere under the new laws, these are not here in ulster as yet but soon will be.

 

[Jo001]

I completely agree with it as a safety measure (as I said in, I think, post #2).

But I'm not convinced by the argument that it needs to be that at all times on all of the roads it will apply to. As an example, we locally have a 20 mph limit in a couple of towns nearby. At times when people are out and about, especially children, fair enough. But one stretch is at least half a mile long, with an arable field on one side, and a 15 - 20 yard wide grassed area on the other; and that is divided from the back of the local houses by a six foot fence all along the stretch. At silly o'clock in the morning, 20 mph seems completely unnecessary.