The camping and caravan clubs anti wild camping letter.

[Fisherman]

maureenandtom, you have far more knowledge on these matters than 99% of us on the forum. Thanks for sharing it and helping to dispel the fake news spread by the likes of CCC.

I beg to disagree Bill, it’s 100%.

 

[Martin P]

The problem with wildcamping is we come under attack from the following types of people.
Nosy " what are they doing there" types.
"I cant wait to report someone types:
I hate it when someone else gets something for nothing types.
Theyve got something I havent types
Im too thick to function without rules so everyone has to follow whatever rules I imagine I have to . Types
Someone is out of place they must be up to no good types.
Im not having that types
I havent got the balls to make a decision so "I think we better say no " types
Ive got a secret agenda but Im not going to admit it types.
Im a young buck and pissing off motorhomers is a good laugh types.

 

[Fisherman]

The problem with wildcamping is we come under attack from the following types of people.
Nosy " what are they doing there" types.
"I cant wait to report someone types:
I hate it when someone else gets something for nothing types.
Theyve got something I havent types
Im too thick to function without rules so everyone has to follow whatever rules I imagine I have to . Types
Someone is out of place they must be up to no good types.
Im not having that types
I havent got the balls to make a decision so "I think we better say no " types
Ive got a secret agenda but Im not going to admit it types.
Im a young buck and pissing off motorhomers is a good laugh types.

Brilliant Martin, bloody brilliant

 

[antiquesam]

There is a legal difference between parking and camping.

Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.

If I remember correctly the encampment refers to five or more vans and Priti is trying to reduce this to two, but hasn't yet succeeded.

 

[Fisherman]

Lets see what they publish if any part of this.

Scott Curries letter regarding wild camping raised many issues.

First let me make myself clear, I detest anyone in a motorhome who behaves poorly, and gives an otherwise friendly well behaved community poor name.
The behaviour of a tiny minority at the start of this crisis, was shameful, but may have been more to do with naivety and lack of clarity from our government than selfish or stupid behaviour.
And since these unfortunate indiscretions our community has behaved well, I only wish the same could be said of others who have put lives at risk with their selfish behaviour.
It's a pity that these same media outlets who reported such poor behaviour also failed to report that 99% of us did not take part in these acts.

But back to the main point ‘wild camping’, a term that seems to generate passionate debate from some who have little or no knowledge of us or what we do.
Scott comments on things that he has witnessed on his Island. Which Island I don’t know, but I am guessing as its in Argyle and Bute it may be Mull, or one of the southern Hebridean islands.
But what Scott fails to acknowledge, or simply is not aware of is that motorhomes make up a tiny minority of vehicles on his Island.
But due to their size they stand out. On my many crossings to the islands, from the 88 vehicles on board the ferry, there are normally only one or two motorhomes.
In winter normally we are the only motorhome on board.

Also it seems that some islanders who for years argued for road tariff equivalent ferry crossings, now complain about its fuller consequences.
You no what they say about having your cake and eating it. Well it seems that some have eaten all of the cake, and now wish to complain about some of the consequences.
When on any Island we buy our provisions locally, and will normally go for a meal or two. And we will spend one night in three in a campsite to replenish water, and empty our cassettes etc.
But we nearly always prefer wild camping, to campsites.

As for parking in front of someones home, I would not thank you for such a position., we always avoid such locations, not only because we are considerate, but because its just not our cup of tea.
But unless road markings or signage state otherwise, there is nothing illegal regarding parking a car or a motorhome in such a position.

There seems to be confusion regarding the 2003 land reform act (Scotland) which you refer to.
The act had nothing to do with motorhomes or other vehicles, other than to state what I have just stated, that they were not included within the act.
The act was enabled to facilitate freedom for people to pitch tents on private land. It did nothing to remove our rights to park legally were we are permitted too.
Within carparks were there is no signage preventing overnight parking.
Wild camping is not illegal, there are no laws in the UK banning it.
HGV drivers and others have such stop overs, are we going to ban them also.

Scott states he lives in a beautiful island, well Scott I am sure you do, and I and the vast majority of wild campers want it to remain that way, otherwise we would have no reason to return.

On arriving on any island we spend little or no time in the main town.
When we go to Arran we head north, then to its sparely populated west coast.
But we have spent over a thousand pounds on the Island in the past two years, mainly in Arran Outdoors, and Arran Aromatics.
We normally spend two nights wild camping then a night at the seal Shores campsite in Kildonan.
We then spend a further two nights wild camping before heading home.

Wild camping is part of what we do, and will remain so.
Some councils are starting to change their attitudes towards us, viewing us not as a problem, but as an opportunity to help local communities.
Fife council are to be applauded for their forward thinking measures in recent times.
They plan to add motorhome spaces and limited facilities at some of their carparks.
And their facilities at Lochore are a credit to their forward thinking.

The vast majority of wild campers are decent men and women in the winter of their lives.
We have worked hard contributing to our country for decades.
All we ask for is somewhere to park peacefully and preferably out of the way. And if facilities like chemical waste and water are provided I am more than happy to pay for them.
Is that too much to ask for, if so thats a poor reflection on this country of ours.

Finally Scott, you ask if the CCC are condoning wild camping.
Why not when its done properly.
Thousands of their members are wild campers using their motorhomes and tents.
I would be shocked that someone as you with a camper van has never done so.

I have spent some wonderful time in beautiful locations were there are no campsites,
And as far as I am aware I have never upset or annoyed anyone.

 

[Martin P]

A very good and well thought out letter.
I would like to add this to the debate.
Campsites suit caravans. You go there for a period of your time and use your car to orbit around and explore the area. Motor homes are more suited to a more "linear"approach.
We drive to a spot, stay a night and move on.
Campsites are usually remote. Thats fine with a car unhitched from a caravan but my wife is 10 years past a bicycle. Largely we like to visit an area urban or otherwise, spend some time( and money) , tuck ourselves away for the night and then move on. We have been members of the clubs in order to visit 1 night in 4 to fill and empty which is ok.
A motorhome is made to be self sufficient and expecting them to only park in campsites is like expecting an aeroplane to limit itself to taxying along a runway.
Motorhomes just dont need campsites only emptying and filling facilities and I doubt if anyone on here has a problem with paying a reasonable charge to do so
Trying to force motorhomes into sites is small minded and mean spirited .
Good luck with your letter Fisherman, you always put forward a well reasoned argument and you make a good spokesperson.
Unfortunately I think these things always run into what I consider the worst of all the types. The one who sighs and says"I think we better say no "
Long live wildcamping, its the rebel in us you know

 

[runnach]

A very good and well thought out letter.
I would like to add this to the debate.
Campsites suit caravans. You go there for a period of your time and use your car to orbit around and explore the area. Motor homes are more suited to a more "linear"approach.
We drive to a spot, stay a night and move on.
Campsites are usually remote. Thats fine with a car unhitched from a caravan but my wife is 10 years past a bicycle. Largely we like to visit an area urban or otherwise, spend some time( and money) , tuck ourselves away for the night and then move on. We have been members of the clubs in order to visit 1 night in 4 to fill and empty which is ok.
A motorhome is made to be self sufficient and expecting them to only park in campsites is like expecting an aeroplane to limit itself to taxying along a runway.
Motorhomes just dont need campsites only emptying and filling facilities and I doubt if anyone on here has a problem with paying a reasonable charge to do so
Trying to force motorhomes into sites is small minded and mean spirited .
Good luck with your letter Fisherman, you always put forward a well reasoned argument and you make a good spokesperson.
Unfortunately I think these things always run into what I consider the worst of all the types. The one who sighs and says"I think we better say no "
Long live wildcamping, its the rebel in us you know

I agree horses for courses, having had both and in the case of s motorhome living full time for four and a half years the occasional skirmish with authority it’s a complicated situation

maureentoms post is spot on in England at least , it’s is legal to do what you want unless legislation says you can’t in the form of bylaws traffic restriction orders or the latest to persecute the dreaded public space protection orders which by their nature cover large areas where signage is inadequate.

I stand to be corrected here, but reasonably confident nowhere in the Highway Code nor the road traffic act does it mention any of us havevthe right to park on a public highway..lay-bys we see are an implication no more than that and as mentioned if subject to a rule can be illegal...nothing in writing anywhere.

Many people say wouldn’t park in front of houses etc and all the rest of it which is fair enough remembering the law is as it is not how we want it to be!..a lot of the signage is illegal and has no legal credibility...why does that matter just move on ? Where I share maureentoms viewpoint wholeheartedly is if a local authority erects signafge their needs to be due diligence and legal mileage in its credibility but often there isn’t. It’s not a level playing field and they get away with it.

One good example was the no overnight parking signs that littered the Scottish highlands that had been erected on a whim ...Fisherman did you know it was one of our members that unravelled the truth on that one ? And it wasn’t maureentoms

That aside does it all matter ? Well I will leave Tom to explain Preston and the Lendal bridge fiasco in York ...the latter £1.5 million of revenue raised with no legal backing you read that right £1.5 million and people had to ask for their money back ! It wasn’t automatic. Law abiding folk riddled out of money because some oil can’t do their job properly ...tooo bloody right I will challenge them

 

[Fisherman]

I stand to be corrected here, but reasonably confident nowhere in the Highway Code nor the road traffic act does it mention any of us havevthe right to park on a public highway..lay-bys we see are an implication no more than that and as mentioned if subject to a rule can be illegal...nothing in writing anywhere.

My understanding Andrew is if a car can park somewhere 24/7 and there is no signage indicating otherwise then so can we. I really don’t understand what all of the confusion is, and were it’s coming from. According to the dvla my vehicle and a car are the same a PLG. I don’t know about Motorhomes above 3.5T.
But I would assume that they would be the same.

The waters have been muddied up here with the land reform act and some quoting its qualifications on motorised vehicles. Some use this as a vehicle for their bias against us, either in ignorance, or simply out of badness.
The land reform act has nothing to do with us, it changed nothing up here for us or for those who drive to such locations in cars.

Those pitching tents don’t tend to pitch were parking is permitted they sometimes do it in locations were there are no roads or access for motorised vehicles. Note the act makes no specific mention of us, simply motorised vehicles.

 

[Drover]

HGVs have good sleeping facilities in them of course but they are intended for use in proper Lorry parks not in laybys, I have no problem with HGVS parking in Laybys and their drivers sleeping there but lets be clear HGV drivers get an allowance to pay for their overnight sleeps in the Lorry parks etc but choose not to as they can then keep the allowance to enhance their earnings which they deserve as they are not the best paid people with huge responsibilities, they also know when their driving time is nearing an end and should make sure of where they are going to stop over.. car delivery drivers with trade plates also get money for them to return to their base by train or other public transport but choose to hitch a lift to enhance their meagre earnings by keeping this allowance, too. I was involved in the Transport dept Planning at the Ford Plants for some years so I do know what I am talking about here ,

This is not quite correct.
You get a overnight allowance from some firms but not all firms. How you spend this is up to the individual.
Most firms will pay the parking cost as it is tax deductible.
Car delivery drivers do not get paid both ways and make a profit on the return. Their money is crap and none wants that job.
Your theory is years old and them days of making extra are long gone. Sad as it is.
I was also Involved in transport and gave it up last year though I've kept lgv licence, cpc and operaters licence..
The EU have totally cocked up the haulage industry for both drivers and haulage firms.

 

[runnach]

My understanding Andrew is if a car can park somewhere 24/7 and there is no signage indicating otherwise then so can we. I really don’t understand what all of the confusion is, and were it’s coming from. According to the dvla my vehicle and a car are the same a PLG. I don’t know about Motorhomes above 3.5T.
But I would assume that they would be the same.

The waters have been muddied up here with the land reform act and some quoting its qualifications on motorised vehicles. Some use this as a vehicle for their bias against us, either in ignorance, or simply out of badness.
The land reform act has nothing to do with us, it changed nothing up here for us or for those who drive to such locations in cars.

Those pitching tents don’t tend to pitch were parking is permitted they sometimes do it in locations were there are no roads or access for motorised vehicles. Note the act makes no specific mention of us, simply motorised vehicles.

You are quite right the land reform act often called the freedom to roam act as far as I can tell doesn’t influence our ability to wildcamp other than motorised vehicles are exempt from its scope

The plg is simply s taxation class, a motor caravan is the same legal standing as a motor car the difference being on most v5s it has a special body type this was enshrined in eu law about 2012... I used this to challenge Blackpool council a few years ago the principle argumentmy motor caravan enjoyed the same legal status,as a motor car their discrimination was on body type which signage didn’t differentiate. I also questioned the contract law side too considering it was dark the signs weren’t illuminated so by circumstances entered a contract with limited information

Many question why travellers get away with their transgressions and that is the answer authorities accept no contract entered into thus there can be no breach .

What we can draw from all this is the law is a complete mess in a lot of cases not fit for purpose, it is important for nothing else if only clarity where restrictions do apply they are lawful and introduced through the proper scrutiny processes"...in reality this is our biggest hurdle in reality.

 

[molly 2]

Brilliant Martin, bloody brilliant

Not to mention the site owner types

 

[peter palance]

Well I got my copy of the camping and caravan clubs magazine this morning, and the steam is still coming out of my ears. Do these people not realise that a large proportion of their members own campers and motorhomes, and most of them “wild camp”. Scott Currie claims to own a campervan, yet places tuggers and us in the same boat. Not what I would have expected from someone with knowledge of our chosen pastime. I have written to the club, Informing them that I am seriously considering leaving them, and I am serious. I know they have a bias even a dislike of us, I am not niave. But I wrongly assumed that both sides simply ignored this for each other’s betterment. But for me this totally biased letter has crossed a line. I am not stating that what Scott Currie reports does not happen, but his comments clearly infer that we are all alike. Also his patronising insulting comment that he hoped no members would do this just made matters worse.

Heres my reply, I doubt if they will publish it, they don’t want the dark side to be heard do they now.


I wish to complain about the letter you published in your June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping.
His comments were disgraceful and an insult to the vast majority of us who enjoy wild camping in locations were there are no campsites or other forms of accommodation. I have never dumped rubbish anywhere in my life, nor emptied a chemical toilet anywhere other than in the appropriate place. As for parking in front of anyone’s home, I simply would not be interested in doing so, and I think I speak for the vast majority of our community. This letter may cost you members, myself included. I am furious with you for publishing it, and so are many others.
I bought a Motorhome to enjoy the freedom it offers. I also have enjoyed campsites run by yourselves, the caravan and Motorhome club who I am also a member of, and many independent campsites.
I feel you owe myself and many others an apology for publishing this insulting, narrow minded, ill informed letter, written by someone who does not seem to know the difference between a Motorhome and a caravan.

If I don’t receive an apology I and many others on various forums will seriously consider leaving your organisation, and that would be a shame.

Times are changing many campsites now cater for more or as many Motorhomes than caravans, and like it or not most of these Motorhomers enjoy responsible and considerate wild camping, not Scott Curries version of wild camping.

I would be pleased if you published this letter, but somehow I don’t reckon you want the other side of the story to be told. As for recommending that we always stay in campsites, I think I know why you would recommend that, hence your obvious bias in printing such a letter in the first place.

Yours sincerely

And here’s the letter.

View attachment 81874

sorry but we left be-cause of the at-itude.of the then caravan ciub. oh and we want be going back. its at the top that needs a good kicking. attitude. and they love
money, please let them pass. ok.pj not going back

 

[peter palance]

I dont think the majority of people with motorhomes/campervans go off grid. From what I see and read its a small minority who do this. The majority of folks with motorhomes use them exactly the same as caravans, load up and drive to a site. Why they ever bought a motorhome I have no idea as they would be much better off with a car and caravan.

If the Scottish law is saying motorised vehicles does that mean you could drop off a caravan and legally stay?

The big two clubs are against anything that means you aren't staying on their sites and always have been so I dont know why anyone would be surprised. I am a member of both in spite of this as I do make use of them when needs must. The biggest enemy for motorhomes and camper vans is other motorhome and campervan owners, its nearly always them that post up about indiscretions

sorry you to have a problem, get living and you will see why, ok.pj had a caravan be ,ok pj. dont a gree, you can please your self

 

[peter palance]

Plenty of better clubs around , dump them

if they dont represent all the members. why bother. ok.pj.

 

[peter palance]

Not to mention the site owner types

on the council. fingers in the pie. ok pj

 

[Moped]

The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. Their response to the letter overlooked this.

As for the Scottish Land Act right to roam thing excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.

And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.

When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.

The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.

Maybe the CCC responder should review the response and reconsider the position which may not have been made with all the available facts.

The good news is, after following this topic, I have learnt a lot and am now much happier parking up in Scotland as long as I stay on the public highway and associated verge.

 

[Fisherman]

The Camping and Caravan Club do offer a motorhome service stop for £7 at a number of their sites so they clearly do recognise that those with motorhomes do not always park overnight on a campsite. Their response to the letter overlooked this.

As for the Scottish Land Act right to roam thing excluding motorised vehicles, this surely has to imply those with 4x4 type vehicles. It is very unlikely that a motorhome would be able to roam across the Scottish highlands at will once off the public highway.

And talking of public highway, the world ”public“ seems to have been overlooked by the CCC and the letter writer.

When on the public highway the Scottish Land Act has no legal status as it is not privately owned land. And the public highway does include verges up to and including any fencing should any be present.

The motorhome parked up in the magazine photo is clearly parked on a verge on the public highway and so Is doing no wrong. Both the letter writer and the club response have lost sight of this and in so doing have muddied the waters for the clubs motorhome members.

Maybe the CCC responder should review the response and reconsider the position which may not have been made with all the available facts.

The good news is, after following this topic, I have learnt a lot and am now much happier parking up in Scotland as long as I stay on the public highway and associated verge.

We all learn every day moped, but in order to learn you have to be prepared to listen. And quoting Churchill, anyone who has never changed their minds, has never changed anything.
The letter is inaccurate, insulting, and clearly written by someone with an axe to grind. A so called camper van owner who talks about caravans wild camping as if it’s common practice. If he does own a camper and has never wild camped he must be the only one I know. As for the CCC they overstepped the mark. Reading that letter we are all braking the law, and his comments were backed up by the editor, unbelievable. Hopefully they will make amends, but they must have angered many of their members, well at least one, this one.

 

[antiquesam]

Many people seem to think that every motorhome must have overnighted away from a site, but I think there are many who have just changed over from a tow van for convenience with no intention of doing anything other than they did before. I have friends who own motorhomes that wouldn't dream of sleeping off grid. If you ever stop on a club site and get talking to your fellow motorhome members to mention wilding can bring up their blood pressure at the thought of mad axemen roaming around at night and shotgun carrying landowners taking pot shots.

 

[Fisherman]

Many people seem to think that every motorhome must have overnighted away from a site, but I think there are many who have just changed over from a tow van for convenience with no intention of doing anything other than they did before. I have friends who own motorhomes that wouldn't dream of sleeping off grid. If you ever stop on a club site and get talking to your fellow motorhome members to mention wilding can bring up their blood pressure at the thought of mad axemen roaming around at night and shotgun carrying landowners taking pot shots.

Motorhomes I would say the majority I have spoken have done some wild camping Sam. But this guy claims to own a camper van, I reckon the vast majority of them wild camp. Bottom line if the CCC have say 100,000 Motorhome users, they just slapped around 50-60,000 of their members in the face. Hardly good business practice.

 

[Biggarmac]

Write letters to the CCC mag if you want to change things. Moaning on here will have no effect, but lots of(moderate) letters to the club will be noticed.