The camping and caravan clubs anti wild camping letter.

caledonia

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I think it’s best we keep our heads below the parapet and keep doing as we have been. Start asking for legislation and rights and we’ll be herded into sites or aire type things crammed together and banned from wild parking altogether. IMO. 🤷‍♂️
 

maureenandtom

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Is wild-camping illegal. No, it isn't. It may be – when there is some sort of legislation making it illegal. A bye-law for example, or a TRO or a PSPO. But it has to be made illegal. If there is no law to say it is illegal then it is legal. No mistake.

There is a fundamental right going back to a landmark ruling by Lord Justice Camden in Entick versus Carrington in 1765 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entick_v_Carrington

2020-05-20_104615.png


We can do what we want if it's not prohibited. Councils can only do what is permitted. See the difference?

Channa mentioned John Thompson and his work. We accept unquestioningly the right oc Parliament and Councils to make laws which then prohibit us from certain actions – wild-camping for example. And then we must abide by the law. But there must be a law probibiting us. No law there is no probibition. We do not need a law to give us permission. We need a law to deny us permission.

Some of us insist on the other side of the coin. Councils may only do that which they are permitted to do. So, to enact a no overnight parking rule, for example, there has to be legislation permitting the council to enact that ruling There are limits on what the council can do. For example, to pass a bye-law it must be approved by central government. To enact a TRO there is legislation limiting Councils' actions and they must follow a laid down procedure. A council can do only that which it is permitted to do. The opposite of the private citizen.

John Thompson, and others, attempted to make councils follow laid down rules. Many councils do not and some of us would take councils to task when they enact local legsilation they have no power to enact – or they fail to follow laid down democratic procedure.

The point I'm making badly is that we must follow the rules. A council must do the same. No permission to act – the council must not act. When it does, and they often do, then we must make our objection to their illegality known – whether we think their ruling is reasonable or not. Councils must abide by the law.

We need no law to make wild-camping legal; no freedom to roam legislatin to make it legal. It is legal - except when there is a law prohibiting it.
 

Snapster

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I used to work for a local government. I attended meetings where public safety and leisure were discussed.
I remember one meeting where a TPO was being proposed along a stretch of road alongside a beach. There was a part of the road that led to a dead end with no houses nearby, just a few beach huts, and campers used to park there, mostly during the day while kite surfing but a few stayed overnight.
The TPO was being proposed to stop overnight stays, the council member cited complaints from residents who said camper vans were parking outside their houses and leaving a mess ( remember I said there were no houses nearby?)
Even though I objected and demanded to see evidence of these complaints, none were made available and the motion was quickly passed.
I would hate to think the councillor had a vested interest in his nearby campsite and used his influence to get the order passed!
This TPO was later extended along the whole of the road.
 

vindiboy

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Plenty of better clubs around , dump them
I have been a CCC member for 35 years and will always defend the club, my membership is only £17 per year now vintage membership, and I can get reduced age related fees reduction at their sites, I get my home Insurance via the Club as it gives me 180 days unoccupancy cover with no conditions, I get our Ferry tickets and Train tickets via the club, I use the DA meets frequently and Holiday Sites and CS sites when travelling around UK, I use the Forest sites run by the CCC too as living near the New Forest in Hampshire is a great bonus. no booking generally just turn up using the full directions printed in the monthly OUT and ABOUT magazine which comes with a very good glossy magazine camping related, caravans and Motorhomes too, Weekend DA meets are like Wilding in a way as they are often held on Farm fields with basic toilet dump and water tap, generally take your rubbish home except sometimes a skip is supplied for this purpose , no requirement to join in with any activities that may be on offer, just do your own thing, no one will bother you, but sometimes it is good to socialise , what's not to like ?
I have been a member of various clubs in tandem with the CCC over the years, Hymer Club, Hymer International club, Motorhome Club Club, Caravan Club , and one called Happy Weekenders, all OK but not a patch on the CCC, so I would be interested to hear which clubs you think would be a good substitute to my favourite CCC Please.
I have rallied ? with the Wilders on here too and really enjoyed the experience like minded folks always a benefit, W C intended to have a meet at Strawberry Fields nr . Lymingtom, again this year,, but I think it is cancelled, the CCC also have had Rallies on this Venue in the past, again this is close to where we live and we frequently go to the car boot there,Thanks all,
 

yorkslass

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I used to work for a local government. I attended meetings where public safety and leisure were discussed.
I remember one meeting where a TPO was being proposed along a stretch of road alongside a beach. There was a part of the road that led to a dead end with no houses nearby, just a few beach huts, and campers used to park there, mostly during the day while kite surfing but a few stayed overnight.
The TPO was being proposed to stop overnight stays, the council member cited complaints from residents who said camper vans were parking outside their houses and leaving a mess ( remember I said there were no houses nearby?)
Even though I objected and demanded to see evidence of these complaints, none were made available and the motion was quickly passed.
I would hate to think the councillor had a vested interest in his nearby campsite and used his influence to get the order passed!
This TPO was later extended along the whole of the road.
I have no personal knowledge of such goings on, but i have read on here many times ,where councils have been asked to disclose complaints and generally there have been perhaps one or two, certainly not enough to justify a TRO. Vested interests....perish the thought. They will certainly have pressure put on them by campsite owners though, who still don't understand that some people just don't want to spend their time herded like cattle.
 

Fisherman

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I have been a CCC member for 35 years and will always defend the club, my membership is only £17 per year now vintage membership, and I can get reduced age related fees reduction at their sites, I get my home Insurance via the Club as it gives me 180 days unoccupancy cover with no conditions, I get our Ferry tickets and Train tickets via the club, I use the DA meets frequently and Holiday Sites and CS sites when travelling around UK, I use the Forest sites run by the CCC too as living near the New Forest in Hampshire is a great bonus. no booking generally just turn up using the full directions printed in the monthly OUT and ABOUT magazine which comes with a very good glossy magazine camping related, caravans and Motorhomes too, Weekend DA meets are like Wilding in a way as they are often held on Farm fields with basic toilet dump and water tap, generally take your rubbish home except sometimes a skip is supplied for this purpose , no requirement to join in with any activities that may be on offer, just do your own thing, no one will bother you, but sometimes it is good to socialise , what's not to like ?
I have been a member of various clubs in tandem with the CCC over the years, Hymer Club, Hymer International club, Motorhome Club Club, Caravan Club , and one called Happy Weekenders, all OK but not a patch on the CCC, so I would be interested to hear which clubs you think would be a good substitute to my favourite CCC Please.
I have rallied ? with the Wilders on here too and really enjoyed the experience like minded folks always a benefit, W C intended to have a meet at Strawberry Fields nr . Lymingtom, again this year,, but I think it is cancelled, the CCC also have had Rallies on this Venue in the past, again this is close to where we live and we frequently go to the car boot there,Thanks all,
Vindiboy, I would not argue with anything you posted. But they should never have published what can only be described as an anti wild camping letter, full of misinformation, and telling us that they would always recommend we go to campsites. That was a grave error in my honest opinion.
 

Moped

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The lesson to be learned by the 2 largest camping/caravan clubs is, in future, edit any member trip stories so that any mention of ”wildcamping” is excluded. That keeps things simple for the clubs and no one can then be offended.


The author of the original letter causing concern does mention “get permission if you are not on a site” so he is not anti wildcamping as such, just anti how some go about it, and this may have been overlooked.
 
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Fisherman

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The lesson to be learned by the 2 largest camping/caravan clubs is, in future, edit any member trip stories so that any mention of ”wildcamping” is excluded. That keeps things simple for the clubs and no one can then be offended.


The author of the original letter causing concern does mention “get permission if you are not on a site” so he is not anti wildcamping as such, just anti how some go about it, and this may have been overlooked.
He starts of by saying and I quote that the CCC seem to be condoning wild camping, he then goes on to tell us that wild camping is illegal. He then refers to the land reform act, which has nothing to do with what we do. Sorry but it was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, someone who is openly contemptuous of us. The final insult comes from the editor who backs him up on this by stating that wild camping is only legal in Scotland in a tent, and that we should always go to camp sites.

Also I totally disagree that the clubs should never mention wild camping. I find their articles on trips pathetic, particularly the ones carried out by the C&MC, were they never visit anything but their club sites and their CLs. Thousands of members of both clubs own Motorhomes and thousands of them do what we do. We are not there to be ignored, and certainly not there to be insulted by such letters.

You don’t need permission to park in a parking area, or anywhere else you can legally park. And if on rare occasions you do park off grid, how would you know who the land owner is, and how to contact them. As I said this was written by someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
 
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Moped

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He starts of by saying and I quote that the CCC seem to be condoning wild camping, he then goes on to tell us that wild camping is illegal. He then refers to the land reform act, which has nothing to do with what we do. Sorry but it was clearly written by someone with an axe to grind, someone who is openly contemptuous of us. The final insult comes from the editor who backs him up on this by stating that wild camping is only legal in Scotland in a tent, and that we should always go to camp sites.

Also I totally disagree that the clubs should never mention wild camping. I find their articles on trips pathetic, particularly the ones carried out by the C&MC, were they never visit anything but their club sites and their CLs. Thousands of members of both clubs own Motorhomes and thousands of them do what we do. We are not there to be ignored, and certainly not there to be insulted by such letters.

You don’t need permission to park in a parking area, or anywhere else you can legally park. And if on rare occasions you do park off grid, how would you know who the land owner is, and how to contact them. As I said this was written by someone who clearly has an axe to grind.
Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.

And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.

We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.

We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.
 
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Fisherman

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Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.

And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.

We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.

We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.
Both he and the editor refer to a section of the land reform act.Wild camping being permitted in Scotland but not in a motorised vehicle.
And sorry but if you are legally entitled to park somewhere with a car overnight, unless there is signage stating otherwise you can do so.
There is no requirement for a blind eye to be used, or to seek any permission.

I have stated many times about being considerate for locals, stating that I would not park in front of someones home etc.
I and the vast majority of us are fully aware of trying to maintain goodwill between us and local people.
His letter seeks to underline only the negative aspects of what we do.
I have never emptied my cassette inappropriately, yet he gives the impression that its common practice for us to do so.
If you cannot see that this was written by someone who is contemptuous of us with an axe to grind,
and backed up by an organisation who only want to sell campsite pitches, then so be it.
 
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2cv

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Where does the letter writer mention the land reform act? To me this is getting blown out of all proportion. Of course you do not need permission to park in an area designated as a “parking area” but many such areas do not permit overnight sleeping or allow motorhomes to use the area all as normally flagged up in the terms and conditions.

And if you park on land owned by someone you do need permission or some form of consent. Even if you park on a public highway overnight and sleep in a vehicle you still officially require permission.

We have to remember we rely on goodwill and just because a blind eye is used by officials in a lot of cases does not mean they do not have powers to act if they deem it necessary.

We wildcamp with an understanding of the symbiotic relationship between ourselves and local people and if we all did this we would all get along fine. The issue is some don’t.
The letter writer opens with reference to wild camping legislation that refers to tent camping on private land.
Could you clarify where it is decreed that you need permission to sleep in a vehicle on the public highway.
 

mariesnowgoose

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?

Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.

So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?

I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?
 

Fisherman

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?

Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.

So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?

I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?
CORRRRRRRRECT:D
 

Moped

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't HGV drivers pull over to park up and sleep wherever it is suitable when their tachos hit their driving limit?

Most big modern artics have fantastically equipped cabs with proper beds and other facilities.
I remember drooling over a brand new Mercedes artic from Holland that delivered some plants to a nursery I was helping out at a few years ago.
The kit it had inside was amazing and would have put a lot of modern motorhomes to shame.

So, if HGVs can do this then surely motorhomes can do the same if they are travelling somewhere and need to stop for a break or some sleep?

I have always been under the (probably misguided) illusion that if your vehicle is fully taxed, tested and insured then you can park up anywhere on the public highways and byways where it is legal to do so?
There is a legal difference between parking and camping.

Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.
 

Fisherman

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There is a legal difference between parking and camping.

Our local authority has a bylaw relating to unauthorised encampments on public land which permits them to take action if a report is made. No doubt many, if not all, local authorities in England and Wales have similar bylaws. You can park on a public highway bylaws permitting but if you then undertake any act within your vehicle that is considered to be an act of camping then effectively you are an encampment and subject to local bylaws. If reported authorities have powers to act, even when camping on a highway.
And any such bylaws or restrictions must be made the subject of signage within these parking areas. And thus I would not park there.
Also by definition an encampment is more related to a group of individuals ie travellers who seek an encampment for a prolonged period of time, involving the use of temporary buildings, or tents. And that is not my interpretation. That’s from the oxford dictionary. I hardly think that an individual or a couple, or an HGV driver would constitute as an encampment, these byelaws you mention are clearly targeting travellers. Marie’s definition was spot on, if you can legally park somewhere you don’t need anyone’s permission.
 

groyne

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Mr Currie was responding to a photo in the magazine that portrayed what could be interpreted as a motorhome being used for wild camping on the Isle of Skye.
Same old, same old, someone reacting when they don't have all the facts. The motorhomer could just have stopped for a break, or to admire the view (I don't know). If it had just been a car or even an Articulated lorry parked up for the night in the photo, nobody would bat an eyelid.

Is it time to ditch the Wild Camping tag?
 

Fisherman

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And theres always the likes of these people to help their cause to ban wild camping
Sadly witzend we have muppets in amongst us.
But that paper could have reported that 99.5% of us did what we were told and abided by the law. But instead we are hung out to dry by a few idiots with no more intelligence than your average pigeon.
 

vindiboy

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HGVs have good sleeping facilities in them of course but they are intended for use in proper Lorry parks not in laybys, I have no problem with HGVS parking in Laybys and their drivers sleeping there but lets be clear HGV drivers get an allowance to pay for their overnight sleeps in the Lorry parks etc but choose not to as they can then keep the allowance to enhance their earnings which they deserve as they are not the best paid people with huge responsibilities, they also know when their driving time is nearing an end and should make sure of where they are going to stop over.. car delivery drivers with trade plates also get money for them to return to their base by train or other public transport but choose to hitch a lift to enhance their meagre earnings by keeping this allowance, too. I was involved in the Transport dept Planning at the Ford Plants for some years so I do know what I am talking about here ,
 

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