Fiat Smart Alternator problems

[Okta]

Could this be due to the Recovery Effect if there is a load on the battery which ends when the engine is switched off? (Sorry if this is a numty question).

Some recovery perhaps, not sure, there are others who know more about electrics than me.

 

[Patandtubs]

Anyone had problems with smart alternator as fitted on recent (3 year old) Euro 6 motorhomes. My engine battery charge voltage fluctuates randomly between 12.4 and 14.2V, it has always seemed somewhat erratic but now much more so? It wouldn’t start for 10 minutes or so after a break this morning, even though when it did it was immediate with no sign of weakness from the battery in cranking.

Presently at a garage in Ayr where AA took me. They’ve measured voltage at the alternator terminals and their readings agree with mine, but they are somewhat flummoxed. Despite the low readings it usually rises back to 12.6V after a rest.

I can’t get a Fiat place to even look at it for over a week and we are due on the ferry to Ireland on Wednesday. Reluctant to just order a new alternator owing to high cost, and uncertainty that the problem may actually lie with other elements of the smart alternator control electrics. Looking online there seem to have been lots of problems with these, but no clear answers.

Just wondered if others on the forum had had the issue.

I hope this helps. What you describes is exactly what happens with euro 6 engines.
For more info google :
12 volt Planet.co.uk
Knowledge Centre;
Split Charging;
Auxiliary Battery Charging in vehicles with smart alternators.
I think this will explain.
PS. You need a Battery to Battery Charger, I have a Sterling BB1270 which is amazing charging a 100 amp LiFePo4.

 

[Okta]

Might be helpful to clarify that not all Euro 6 engines have smart alternators. For several years Fiat omitted the smart alternators from vehicles destined for motorhome conversion. This came to an end as of September 2019 when more realistic testing rules were introduced that forced Fiat to introduce new models with smart alternators and AdBlue. The Euro 6 standard didn’t change just the testing procedures.

 

[Fisherman]

Just to add to this I recently bought a new PVC based on a Ducato, and have had issues with charging my lithium batteries. When you leave home with two fully charged batteries at 100% and drive for 60 miles to find they’re now only 91%, that’s alarming. Rapido had wired the fridge to the Hab batteries via a 2a fuse on the Nordelectronica consumer unit. I assume this controlled a relay at only 2a and not the actual load. The fridge had another fuse for general operation also.
I removed the supply fuse, and found this reduced the load on the batteries.
But I now found that driving did not increase the battery supply, the batteries now being more or less the same when I finished a journey,

I have drawn the conclusion that running the fridge on gas whilst driving is worth considering in certain circumstances. I found doing this did increase battery power.

I should have mentioned I have a Victron 30a B2B and two 100ah lithiums.

I tried turning on my headlights but possibly as they are LED this made no difference.

Solar did help to improve the situation adding to the mix of power available when driving.

I have rightly or wrongly drawn the conclusion that you just have to think about what you are doing now when driving, how far will you be driving, will you be connecting to EHU, what time of year etc. But running with your fridge on gas has to be considered now as a realistic option if charging your batteries whilst driving is a requirement.

 

[merl]

Just to add to this I recently bought a new PVC based on a Ducato, and have had issues with charging my lithium batteries. When you leave home with two fully charged batteries at 100% and drive for 60 miles to find they’re now only 91%, that’s alarming. Rapido had wired the fridge to the Hab batteries via a 2a fuse on the Nordelectronica consumer unit. I assume this controlled a relay at only 2a and not the actual load. The fridge had another fuse for general operation also.
I removed the supply fuse, and found this reduced the load on the batteries.
But I now found that driving did not increase the battery supply, the batteries now being more or less the same when I finished a journey,

I have drawn the conclusion that running the fridge on gas whilst driving is worth considering in certain circumstances. I found doing this did increase battery power.

I should have mentioned I have a Victron 30a B2B and two 100ah lithiums.

I tried turning on my headlights but possibly as they are LED this made no difference.

Solar did help to improve the situation adding to the mix of power available when driving.

I have rightly or wrongly drawn the conclusion that you just have to think about what you are doing now when driving, how far will you be driving, will you be connecting to EHU, what time of year etc. But running with your fridge on gas has to be considered now as a realistic option if charging your batteries whilst driving is a requirement.

The alternator should provide enough (freeish) energy to run the 3 way fridge and also put power into the lithiums. Sounds like there is an issue with where the fridge cooling circuit is connected, It should be from the cab battery but I suspect the makers have connected it to the leisure side.
Personally I wouldn't be happy running on gas whilst travelling and I'd get it fixed.

 

[Fisherman]

The alternator should provide enough (freeish) energy to run the 3 way fridge and also put power into the lithiums. Sounds like there is an issue with where the fridge cooling circuit is connected, It should be from the cab battery but I suspect the makers have connected it to the leisure side.
Personally I wouldn't be happy running on gas whilst travelling and I'd get it fixed.

If you look at F2 here the fuse I removed you will see Rapido connected the fridge supply to the leisure batteries. Also I have been informed that some Bailey vans now come with no battery in auto, and running with gas is all that’s available.

Take a look at JP4 on the second photo.
I assume service battery is the leisure battery as it is controlled through the conversion consumer unit. Also from I gather there is nothing to fix. But I really do appreciate your input, cheers.

 

[Okta]

Just to add to this I recently bought a new PVC based on a Ducato, and have had issues with charging my lithium batteries. When you leave home with two fully charged batteries at 100% and drive for 60 miles to find they’re now only 91%, that’s alarming. Rapido had wired the fridge to the Hab batteries via a 2a fuse on the Nordelectronica consumer unit. I assume this controlled a relay at only 2a and not the actual load. The fridge had another fuse for general operation also.
I removed the supply fuse, and found this reduced the load on the batteries.
But I now found that driving did not increase the battery supply, the batteries now being more or less the same when I finished a journey,

I have drawn the conclusion that running the fridge on gas whilst driving is worth considering in certain circumstances. I found doing this did increase battery power.

I should have mentioned I have a Victron 30a B2B and two 100ah lithiums.

I tried turning on my headlights but possibly as they are LED this made no difference.

Solar did help to improve the situation adding to the mix of power available when driving.

I have rightly or wrongly drawn the conclusion that you just have to think about what you are doing now when driving, how far will you be driving, will you be connecting to EHU, what time of year etc. But running with your fridge on gas has to be considered now as a realistic option if charging your batteries whilst driving is a requirement.

Those symptoms would fit with there being a connection from the higher voltage Li battery back to the lower voltage engine battery and smart alternator when the engine is running. I know nothing about Nordelectronica but it might be worth checking if there is a split charge relay creating a loop that bypasses your B2B.

 

[Nabsim]

Totally different setup but my 12V compressor fridge runs only from my leisure battery’s. 2 x 100Ah lifepo4. My 30A B2B always charges at full rate until the last few percent.

Unless you fridge is using 30Ah with the fuse in then your battery bank should be charging when travelling

 

[wildebus]

Those symptoms would fit with there being a connection from the higher voltage Li battery back to the lower voltage engine battery and smart alternator when the engine is running. I know nothing about Nordelectronica but it might be worth checking if there is a split charge relay creating a loop that bypasses your B2B.

There was a factory fitted NDS charger originally, so very unlikely to be an relay fitted as well.
Also if there were, the voltage of the output of the B2B would be the same as the input of the B2B more or less and would be obvious.

 

[Fisherman]

There was a factory fitted NDS charger originally, so very unlikely to be an relay fitted as well.
Also if there were, the voltage of the output of the B2B would be the same as the input of the B2B more or less and would be obvious.

The voltage of the input and output on the B2B are different when in bulk mode I will do a screenshot and post later on.

 

[wildebus]

The alternator should provide enough (freeish) energy to run the 3 way fridge and also put power into the lithiums. Sounds like there is an issue with where the fridge cooling circuit is connected, It should be from the cab battery but I suspect the makers have connected it to the leisure side.
Personally I wouldn't be happy running on gas whilst travelling and I'd get it fixed.

I think it is maybe something to do with Smart Alternator implementation being to clever for its own good!

The NDS PDU is pretty impressive. Being able to select by having a small fuse in place whether the Fridge is powered by the Starter Battery or the Leisure Battery is great. Gives the installer good flexibility and also means if a Compressor Fridge was installed - either initially, or at a later time, no cabling needs to be added, just some fuse moves (which would not be the case if the fridge was wired in the traditional way - to the Starter Battery via a relay).
I guess times have moved on from the older "It should be from the cab battery" stance which is what people still expect to see (as I did originally)

 

[Fisherman]

Before and after engine turned on on B2B.
Also I was getting approx 5a to each battery with fridge on gas, and 12a each battery with fridge on battery.

 

[colinm]

If you look at F2 here the fuse I removed you will see Rapido connected the fridge supply to the leisure batteries. Also I have been informed that some Bailey vans now come with no battery in auto, and running with gas is all that’s available.

Take a look at JP4 on the second photo.
I assume service battery is the leisure battery as it is controlled through the conversion consumer unit. Also from I gather there is nothing to fix. But I really do appreciate your input, cheers.
View attachment 128558View attachment 128559

That says the F2 fuse is 2amp, so 24w to power the heating element, doesn't sound right at all.

 

[Fisherman]

That says the F2 fuse is 2amp, so 24w to power the heating element, doesn't sound right at all.

It’s not connected directly unlike F3 (which is only from fridge controls) Colin, I suspect it powers a relay. Which can switch between alternator or hab batteries. By removing the fuse it’s set to alternator supply.
I thought the same as you at first.
Take a look at the second photo on #66 JP4 on the consumer unit appears to be a relay.

To be honest I don’t reckon there’s anything wrong with the wiring, but as David said, I reckon we have to think differently on this matter now with smart alternators. It was simple with the old standard alternators, but these days are gone now.

 

[wildebus]

That says the F2 fuse is 2amp, so 24w to power the heating element, doesn't sound right at all.

The F2 Fuse will be the fuse to the control. The fuse for the fridge power will be F6 (JP3-3) which is a 15A fuse (and the fridge element draws 11A). It is a litle confusing as it describes that as "Fridge Compressor Output", but I would say it is dual-purpose ... heating element on a 3-Way or general power on a 12V Compressor. (which is why it is such a clever design as provides wiring for multiple circumstances).

What IS missing is a write-up in plain English in the handbook.

 

[merl]

I think it is maybe something to do with Smart Alternator implementation being to clever for its own good!

The NDS PDU is pretty impressive. Being able to select by having a small fuse in place whether the Fridge is powered by the Starter Battery or the Leisure Battery is great. Gives the installer good flexibility and also means if a Compressor Fridge was installed - either initially, or at a later time, no cabling needs to be added, just some fuse moves (which would not be the case if the fridge was wired in the traditional way - to the Starter Battery via a relay).
I guess times have moved on from the older "It should be from the cab battery" stance which is what people still expect to see (as I did originally)

After further thoughts I think you're right David. The fridge will consume around 10-12A so the 30A B2B would be able to 'keep up' easily even if the fridge was connected to the leisure battery. It appears the alternator is the component that's not doing its job properly.
Would be interesting to have a DVM connected to the input to the B2B while driving with a decent load just to see what the cab battery voltage is getting up to . Pity there's no option to disable the 'smart' bit from these alternators too.

 

[Fisherman]

After further thoughts I think you're right David. The fridge will consume around 10-12A so the 30A B2B would be able to 'keep up' easily even if the fridge was connected to the leisure battery. It appears the alternator is the component that's not doing its job properly.
Would be interesting to have a DVM connected to the input to the B2B while driving with a decent load just to see what the cab battery voltage is getting up to . Pity there's no option to disable the 'smart' bit from these alternators too.

I may have came across the wrong way here with my initial post.
I was more looking for a solution as to how to get the best from these annoying smart alternators.
This is my first van with one, and I have been trying to work out how to manage the situation.
As David said we have moved on from it should be the cab battery, to something different.
And horses for courses comes to mind.
If charging your batteries is your primary concern, then minimise current usage whilst driving by running the fridge on gas.
If not then run it on batteries.
But the time of year comes into this also.
What may be right for summer, may not be right for winter.

People have ruined lead batteries with smart alternators, completely draining them in a single journey.
I have found running the fridge from the vehicle battery has helped the leisure batteries, and the vehicle battery still gets a charge.
But this may not work for others.
I am still trying to find the best solutions, and monitoring whats happening.

I intend to contact Fiat to see if they can adjust the smart alternator, but I don't think they would do this due to emissions.

 

[Okta]

I was more looking for a solution as to how to get the best from these annoying smart alternators.
This is my first van with one, and I have been trying to work out how to manage the situation.

I had a smart alternator on my Mercedes Hymer and once I had got the B2B wired properly it worked really well. It is just a matter of recognising they work differently and wiring accordingly. Was your B2B part of the original factory equipment or a later addition?

 

[Fisherman]

I had a smart alternator on my Mercedes Hymer and once I had got the B2B wired properly it worked really well. It is just a matter of recognising they work differently and wiring accordingly. Was your B2B part of the original factory equipment or a later addition?

Rapido fitted an Nordelctronica 40w B2B, but it was faulty with internal low insulation causing the fuse to blow. David replaced it with the Victron 30w B2B.
Unfortunately our first two trips were to campsites, and I had taken no notice of this charging issue. But from what I am reading online it’s creating issues for many. As you say it’s a matter of recognising they work differently, and learning how to manage what they do.

 

[Moped]

Might be helpful to clarify that not all Euro 6 engines have smart alternators. For several years Fiat omitted the smart alternators from vehicles destined for motorhome conversion. This came to an end as of September 2019 when more realistic testing rules were introduced that forced Fiat to introduce new models with smart alternators and AdBlue. The Euro 6 standard didn’t change just the testing procedures.

That would be Euro 6D classified Ducatto vans which also saw the introduction of the 9 speed fully automatic transmission. Just to make it clear for those who may have a Ducatto based van or who are looking to buy pre owned. But the obvious tell is the use of adblue of course!

The discussion here explains why I occasionally see vehicle battery voltage drops down to 70% charged on the Sargent control panel when we stop at a motorway service area. Up until now it's always been a bit of a mystery as to why?

I put it down to the vehicle electrics powering the fridge whilst on the move and keeping the vehicle battery at a minimum level to enable an engine start. Also of course a lot of stop starting can also drain the battery but this didn't explain why this happened when stopping after a motorway run.