Fiat Smart Alternator problems

[wildebus]

I may have came across the wrong way here with my initial post.
I was more looking for a solution as to how to get the best from these annoying smart alternators.
This is my first van with one, and I have been trying to work out how to manage the situation.
As David said we have moved on from it should be the cab battery, to something different.
And horses for courses comes to mind.
If charging your batteries is your primary concern, then minimise current usage whilst driving by running the fridge on gas.
If not then run it on batteries.
But the time of year comes into this also.
What may be right for summer, may not be right for winter.

People have ruined lead batteries with smart alternators, completely draining them in a single journey.
I have found running the fridge from the vehicle battery has helped the leisure batteries, and the vehicle battery still gets a charge.
But this may not work for others.
I am still trying to find the best solutions, and monitoring whats happening.

I intend to contact Fiat to see if they can adjust the smart alternator, but I don't think they would do this due to emissions.

A common way to "defeat" the smart alternator operation used to be to turn the headlights on - but I think because you have LED bulbs with a much lower draw, that doesn't work in the same way?

It is daft that these things are fitted to save energy and the result is users end up deliberately wasting energy in order to be able to use them . It is a bit like Marchie having to leave his inverter switched on to create an artificial power draw to stop his leisure battery going to sleep and loosing hab power to his Motorhome.
Maddening, it is!

 

[Fisherman]

A common way to "defeat" the smart alternator operation used to be to turn the headlights on - but I think because you have LED bulbs with a much lower draw, that doesn't work in the same way?

It is daft that these things are fitted to save energy and the result is users end up deliberately wasting energy in order to be able to use them . It is a bit like Marchie having to leave his inverter switched on to create an artificial power draw to stop his leisure battery going to sleep and loosing hab power to his Motorhome.
Maddening, it is!

I don’t think this would be an issue if these vehicles are simply being used as vans, with no leisure batteries, which is obviously their primary use David.
But I do think what Fiat and possibly others have to do is look to making adjustments on their vans that will be used as motorhomes.
But the spanner in the works is their need to meet emission requirements, and this may make this impossible.
My 2017 car has a smart alternator, stop start. It still has its original battery, and prior to this I took little notice of this.
I do think that the Motorhome industry should be looking at ways to mitigate these issues, and should be more up front as to what changes they have made, and our need to be more knowledgeable in dealing with these alternators. My handbook makes little reference towards this.
I have read reports of people draining their batteries on a single journey, that’s simply not acceptable, and it brings into question the fit for purpose argument.

 

[Okta]

I don’t think this would be an issue if these vehicles are simply being used as vans, with no leisure batteries , which is obviously their primary use David.
But I do think that Fiat and possibly others have to do is look to making adjustments on their vans that will be used as motorhomes.

That is what Fiat used to do. They disabled the smart alternator function for motorhome manufacturers/converters but this is no longer possible because the smart alternator is needed to pass the Euro 6 tests. They are no longer allowed to cheat the system by getting Euro 6 status on a vehicle model and then selling some vehicles that have been changed and probably no longer really comply. In other words they got away with playing the system until September 2019 but then had to stop. Other manufacturers like Mercedes refused to do this from about 2015.

The converters/manufacturers are the ones that add a leisure battery to a motor vehicle system that works perfectly well. It is their responsibility to make sure that what they add works properly and does not interfere with the vehicle systems. They had plenty of advance notice and the solutions were well known and well tried and tested on Mercedes base vehicles.

The problem is easily overcome, all the converters/manufacturers need to do is keep the 12V engine battery completely separate from the 12V leisure battery. This is easily achieved by removing the split charge relay and introducing a B2B (sometimes called a booster) instead. The B2B not only keeps the two batteries properly separated but also puts a load on the engine battery and the smart alternator that keeps it running until the leisure battery is full. No need to faff about with headlights creating false loads. A higher output alternator is also a good idea because it is having to keep more than one battery charged.

I am in the process of buying a Malibu Van which has a Schaudt Elektroblock but I want to upgrade the standard booster to cope with a bigger leisure battery. The Elektroblock contains a relay which the standard WA121525 booster uses and if the booster is removed or bypassed this reverts to being a split charge relay and would cause problems. I emailed Schaudt about this and was quickly advised to leave the standard booster in situ and to install a second B2B/booster that feeds the leisure battery directly. They will in effect work in parallel.

 

[Fisherman]

That is what Fiat used to do. They disabled the smart alternator function for motorhome manufacturers/converters but this is no longer possible because the smart alternator is needed to pass the Euro 6 tests. They are no longer allowed to cheat the system by getting Euro 6 status on a vehicle model and then selling some vehicles that have been changed and probably no longer really comply. In other words they got away with playing the system until September 2019 but then had to stop. Other manufacturers like Mercedes refused to do this from about 2015.

The converters/manufacturers are the ones that add a leisure battery to a motor vehicle system that works perfectly well. It is their responsibility to make sure that what they add works properly and does not interfere with the vehicle systems. They had plenty of advance notice and the solutions were well known and well tried and tested on Mercedes base vehicles.

The problem is easily overcome, all the converters/manufacturers need to do is keep the 12V engine battery completely separate from the 12V leisure battery. This is easily achieved by removing the split charge relay and introducing a B2B (sometimes called a booster) instead. The B2B not only keeps the two batteries properly separated but also puts a load on the engine battery and the smart alternator that keeps it running until the leisure battery is full. No need to faff about with headlights creating false loads. A higher output alternator is also a good idea because it is having to keep more than one battery charged.

I am in the process of buying a Malibu Van which has a Schaudt Elektroblock but I want to upgrade the standard booster to cope with a bigger leisure battery. The Elektroblock contains a relay which the standard WA121525 booster uses and if the booster is removed or bypassed this reverts to being a split charge relay and would cause problems. I emailed Schaudt about this and was quickly advised to leave the standard booster in situ and to install a second B2B/booster that feeds the leisure battery directly. They will in effect work in parallel.

I am no expert Okta, but my van came with a 40A B2B, and now has a victron 30a B2B, due to a failure of the ND B2B fitted by Rapido. As far as I am aware all motorhomes with smart alternators come with B2Bs as standard. But even with a B2B installed. there are still issues. In terms of what we had before, what we have now simply does not do what the standard alternators did. I bow to the knowledge of others who are more clued up on these issues than myself. But even with my very limited knowledge of vehicle electrics I reckon we have to change how we view things related to battery charging whilst driving these vehicles. I see this a learning curve where there are no one size fits all simple solutions. As I have already stated, people with these alternators and B2Bs installed have drained batteries in one journey. I don’t think that simply fitting a B2B mitigates all of the issues. The B2B is part of the solution, but I don’t think it’s the complete answer. It certainly is not in my case.

 

[wildebus]

That is what Fiat used to do. They disabled the smart alternator function for motorhome manufacturers/converters but this is no longer possible because the smart alternator is needed to pass the Euro 6 tests. They are no longer allowed to cheat the system by getting Euro 6 status on a vehicle model and then selling some vehicles that have been changed and probably no longer really comply. In other words they got away with playing the system until September 2019 but then had to stop. Other manufacturers like Mercedes refused to do this from about 2015.

The converters/manufacturers are the ones that add a leisure battery to a motor vehicle system that works perfectly well. It is their responsibility to make sure that what they add works properly and does not interfere with the vehicle systems. They had plenty of advance notice and the solutions were well known and well tried and tested on Mercedes base vehicles.

The problem is easily overcome, all the converters/manufacturers need to do is keep the 12V engine battery completely separate from the 12V leisure battery. This is easily achieved by removing the split charge relay and introducing a B2B (sometimes called a booster) instead. The B2B not only keeps the two batteries properly separated but also puts a load on the engine battery and the smart alternator that keeps it running until the leisure battery is full. No need to faff about with headlights creating false loads. A higher output alternator is also a good idea because it is having to keep more than one battery charged.

I am in the process of buying a Malibu Van which has a Schaudt Elektroblock but I want to upgrade the standard booster to cope with a bigger leisure battery. The Elektroblock contains a relay which the standard WA121525 booster uses and if the booster is removed or bypassed this reverts to being a split charge relay and would cause problems. I emailed Schaudt about this and was quickly advised to leave the standard booster in situ and to install a second B2B/booster that feeds the leisure battery directly. They will in effect work in parallel.

You can simply pull a specific fuse on the EBL unit that disabled the built-in split-charge circuit on it. You don't need to keep it active if you don't want to.

 

[Fisherman]

Just found this on the Rapido manual.

The section on when driving looks interesting.

 

[Nabsim]

This may well be a stupid question but would running the B2B feed directly from the alternator make it see load and work as you want?

 

[wildebus]

Just found this on the Rapido manual.

The section on when driving looks interesting.

View attachment 128592

Bear in mind those voltages discussed in the first two columns would be appropriate to Lead Acid battery types. Lithium would be in the +13V for 90% of the charge state.
So the guidence (and it is only guidence) is kind of out of date in that situation.

 

[Okta]

You can simply pull a specific fuse on the EBL unit that disabled the built-in split-charge circuit on it. You don't need to keep it active if you don't want to.

Thanks. I will probably keep it active and fit my existing Votronic 1212-45 direct to the battery to achieve the 70A recommended by KS Energy.

I am no expert Okta, but my van came with a 40A B2B, and now has a victron 30a B2B, due to a failure of the ND B2B fitted by Rapido. As far as I am aware all motorhomes with smart alternators come with B2Bs as standard. But even with a B2B installed. there are still issues. In terms of what we had before, what we have now simply does not do what the standard alternators did. I bow to the knowledge of others who are more clued up on these issues than myself. But even with my very limited knowledge of vehicle electrics I reckon we have to change how we view things related to battery charging whilst driving these vehicles. I see this a learning curve where there are no one size fits all simple solutions. As I have already stated, people with these alternators and B2Bs installed have drained batteries in one journey. I don’t think that simply fitting a B2B mitigates all of the issues. The B2B is part of the solution, but I don’t think it’s the complete answer. It certainly is not in my case.

Much of what I know was learnt the hard way. In 2015 I bought a Hymer Mercedes with AdBlue and a smart alternator. At that point even Hymer had not worked out what this meant. My first attempt at installing a B2B direct to my Li battery didn’t solve the problem because the split charge relay was still causing a loop. I then wired the B2B through the EBL and everything worked perfectly thereafter. I then purchase a 2019 Carthago without a smart alternator but wanted a B2B to look after my Li battery properly. I got an auto electrician to install it and explained that it would need an extra relay to break the loop created by the CBE DS split charge relay. He installed the relay in the wrong place and didn’t seem to understand the loop problem (less apparent without a smart alternator but still there). I sorted this out myself and everything is still working very well.

Clearly something is not working on your system but having no experience of Nordelectonic I can’t really help. All I can say is that the symptoms sound very similar to the ones I experienced when the leisure battery was back feeding the engine battery through a loop.

 

[wildebus]

Thanks. I will probably keep it active and fit my existing Votronic 1212-45 direct to the battery to achieve the 70A recommended by KS Energy.

if you have a WA121245, then you can potentially 'achieve' the 70A recommended current with it alone

 

[Okta]

This may well be a stupid question but would running the B2B feed directly from the alternator make it see load and work as you want?

I found the B2B connected to the engine battery created sufficient load to keep the smart alternator working sufficiently on my Mercedes motorhome.

 

[Okta]

if you have a WA121245, then you can potentially 'achieve' the 70A recommended current with it alone

I would have to buy a WA121245 but already have the Votronic 45 and the WA121525 comes with the van.

 

[Fisherman]

This may well be a stupid question but would running the B2B feed directly from the alternator make it see load and work as you want?

I have asked plenty of stupid questions Nab, and David does his best to answer them, ma wee heed is nippin Nab

 

[wildebus]

I would have to buy a WA121245 but already have the Votronic 45 and the WA121525 comes with the van.

ah ... votronic and Schaudt using the same numbers
somethign to watch on the WA121225 .... there is no float, so if you are driving and the batteries are full, they are held at 14.4V - they may not appreciate that on a long trip?

 

[1 Cup]

So have I got the right b2b for 2016 sprinter it's victron non isolated. 30amp ?
The earth wire is to the seat bolt
Leisure is not full.
But it never stays on 30 amps ! Outputting Drops down to under 20 amps after 30 mins of driving / switching on !

I'm thinking it should be 2 systems ( van and or hab ) but the body earth connect both to one yes ?

Isolated b2b are different how ?. Is it just the earth wire. Or more !
T I A.

 

[Nabsim]

So have I got the right b2b for 2016 sprinter it's victron non isolated. 30amp ?
The earth wire is to the seat bolt
Leisure is not full.
But it never stays on 30 amps ! Outputting Drops down to under 20 amps after 30 mins of driving / switching on !

I'm thinking it should be 2 systems ( van and or hab ) but the body earth connect both to one yes ?

Isolated b2b are different how ?. Is it just the earth wire. Or more !
T I A.

Is yours the model that runs hot? If so it reduces the output to keep the heat down.

 

[1 Cup]

Is yours the model that runs hot? If so it reduces the output to keep the heat down.

Not sure as it's fitted to seat base upside-down not to pedestal.

But others manufacturers makes are upto 70 amps OUTPUT from 1 unit ! So why buy 2 victrons for 60amp at £200 each ?

is this victrons weak spot ( b2b.). .) AND should or could i run renogy or other make b2b in line with my 30amp b2b !

I'm now looking for a 100 amps from sprinter on idle or is that to much to ask ?

 

[Nabsim]

Not sure as it's fitted to seat base upside-down not to pedestal.

But others manufacturers makes are upto 70 amps OUTPUT from 1 unit ! So why buy 2 victrons for 60amp at £200 each ?

is this victrons weak spot ( b2b.). .) AND should or could i run renogy or other make b2b in line with my 30amp b2b !

I'm now looking for a 100 amps from sprinter on idle or is that to much to ask ?

David may be able to tell you when it changed on the Victron B2B’s, it’s only something I have read about, newer ones from a certain time don’t suffer but I don’t know when. I don’t think the B2B’s are a weak spot for Victron they dont make bad gear. Are the B2B’s not included in the recent price reductions on Victron gear?

If prices drop I am going to add a second Votronic B2B on a switch so it only runs when I want it to, not sure what size my alternator is though.

You don’t want to be running on idle ny length of time, Mercedes do a fast idle kit (it’s an option on new vehicles) that keeps the revs up if you want to stand with engine running. I don’t think that’s a good option myself which is why I have a genny, quieter than a van engine and more economical

 

[Okta]

The new Victron Orion XS 12/12-50A is getting some good reviews. More amps, smaller, lighter and most importantly runs much cooler.

 

[wildebus]

David may be able to tell you when it changed on the Victron B2B’s, it’s only something I have read about, newer ones from a certain time don’t suffer but I don’t know when. I don’t think the B2B’s are a weak spot for Victron they dont make bad gear. Are the B2B’s not included in the recent price reductions on Victron gear?

I posted this thread on the other forum - https://motorhomer.com/threads/victron-orion-overheating.47346/ . got the serial numbers and cut-offs for the different models.
The annoying thing is unlike most other Bluetooth enabled Victron kit, you cannot see the serial number on the app so you need access to the physical unit (or the original packing which will have the number on a sticky label).

Even the later ones still run rather warm. They have dropped in price, yes. They were always pretty competative (for Victron!) and now they are a prety good deal

If prices drop I am going to add a second Votronic B2B on a switch so it only runs when I want it to, not sure what size my alternator is though.

Having the ability to disable a B2B is useful. I have a switch tucked in the central glovebox which I can use to disable mine

You don’t want to be running on idle ny length of time, Mercedes do a fast idle kit (it’s an option on new vehicles) that keeps the revs up if you want to stand with engine running. I don’t think that’s a good option myself which is why I have a genny, quieter than a van engine and more economical