Fiat Smart Alternator problems

[Fisherman]

I posted this thread on the other forum - https://motorhomer.com/threads/victron-orion-overheating.47346/ . got the serial numbers and cut-offs for the different models.
The annoying thing is unlike most other Bluetooth enabled Victron kit, you cannot see the serial number on the app so you need access to the physical unit (or the original packing which will have the number on a sticky label).

Even the later ones still run rather warm. They have dropped in price, yes. They were always pretty competative (for Victron!) and now they are a prety good deal


Having the ability to disable a B2B is useful. I have a switch tucked in the central glovebox which I can use to disable mine

Ok, why would you want to disable your B2B.

 

[wildebus]

Ok, why would you want to disable your B2B.

I have the ability to do so, but very rarely do - it is more of a maintenance thing for me.

But couple of reasons to do so...

1. Might be stuck in traffic-jam for prolonged time and alternator not getting any cooling airflow? An alternator is meant to throttle back if overheating with a high load, but better to take that load off before that happens maybe?
   And if you have maybe 2 B2Bs, and you don't need both on in order to finsh the charge before your drive ends, lowering the load is gentler on the Alternator (and the batteries).
   Mechanical sympathy I guess?
2. May want to take the battery off charge when full but the B2B stays on? An good example there is the Schaudt WA121225 and WA121245 Boosters (aka B2Bs). When set to Lithium Profile, they charge at 14.4V, but that is their ONLY level. Their 'float' is also 14.4V and it is not really that ideal to have 14.4V on the battery all the time. In fact, just yesterday I posted off as part of a kit an extra switch to allow the user to disable his WA Booster on demand as he was not keen (and I agree with him) on having that voltage there on an extended journey when the batteries had no need for it. (The WA Boosters are lovely chargers and run super-cool, but that bit I think was a very odd design choice they made).
   Your Victron drops back to a regular float voltage level in comparision.

There is likely other reasons people may have as well to do this?

 

[Nabsim]

Ok, why would you want to disable your B2B.

In my case it will be if I fit an additional (2nd) B2B, in winter I don’t want both coming on when I start up in case it is taking power from recharging the starter battery. I would flick it on after about half an hour or so of driving. Also in summer when solar is doing the job I won’t really need any B2B

 

[wildebus]

In my case it will be if I fit an additional (2nd) B2B, in winter I don’t want both coming on when I start up in case it is taking power from recharging the starter battery. I would flick it on after about half an hour or so of driving.

If the B2B has voltage sensing, what you could do is set a higher threshold so if the Alternator voltage drops as the loads is higher due to giving the starter battery a good charge, it would not activate the new B2B, just the original. that could be an option to automate the action as well as having a control switch?

Also in summer when solar is doing the job I won’t really need any B2B

 

[MERL]

Just found this on the Rapido manual.

The section on when driving looks interesting.

View attachment 128592

This is where those voltages that I mentioned in a previous post come in because it relates to the voltage in the cab battery as does your chart above. Ultimately you may have a dodgy alternator on your new van but without checking the voltages you wont know.
Okta has posted that he's had a B2B installed on Mercs with a smart alt and everything performed much as a standard alternator and that's what I'd expect and frankly what I'D want but if you're happy to simply take the load off the alternator by running the fridge on gas then you're certainly more easy going than me!
On a techy point (if anyone's following or interested) then I'm wondering if the issue is to do with the thresholds of the smart alternator and the B2B? I'm assuming that there is a minimum input voltage that the B2B needs before it simply drops out and doesn't provide a charge, if that voltage is not achieved by the smart alternator (because of the headroom it's leaving to allow for regenerative breaking) then obviously there will be periods of 'no charge'.
Different brands of B2B will have different low voltage thresholds and also Merc may have a chosen a higher low voltage threshold for their smart alternator settings leading to a system that doesn't drop out? Just a couple of hundred millivolts difference could mean a system that works well and a system that doesn't.

 

[1 Cup]

So can I pull 100 amps in winter from sprinter basic altonator on idle ? So a days use replace in an hour on idle ?
So I got a new kettle and radio from high Street to day so more power usage.

My name 1 cup so 500ml kettle is enough. DAB Radio 6 volts and 2 channels

 

[MERL]

This is where those voltages that I mentioned in a previous post come in because it relates to the voltage in the cab battery as does your chart above. Ultimately you may have a dodgy alternator on your new van but without checking the voltages you wont know.
Okta has posted that he's had a B2B installed on Mercs with a smart alt and everything performed much as a standard alternator and that's what I'd expect and frankly what I'D want but if you're happy to simply take the load off the alternator by running the fridge on gas then you're certainly more easy going than me!
On a techy point (if anyone's following or interested) then I'm wondering if the issue is to do with the thresholds of the smart alternator and the B2B? I'm assuming that there is a minimum input voltage that the B2B needs before it simply drops out and doesn't provide a charge, if that voltage is not achieved by the smart alternator (because of the headroom it's leaving to allow for regenerative breaking) then obviously there will be periods of 'no charge'.
Different brands of B2B will have different low voltage thresholds and also Merc may have a chosen a higher low voltage threshold for their smart alternator settings leading to a system that doesn't drop out? Just a couple of hundred millivolts difference could mean a system that works well and a system that doesn't.

As has already been hinted at the split charge relay option provided by the Nordeletronica must be disabled when you're adding a B2B . The Nord manual says that to achieve this you need to make sure link 6 is IN PLACE on the main circuit board.
Now, here's the thing. I have a nordeletrinica unit (earlier than yours)and when I installed MY B2B I had to REMOVE a link which would make sense. The notes even say that the link "connects to the negative" so that to me says the link provides the negative for the relay coil and if so then the instructions are wrong. IF Nord have made a mistake and installers are following instructions that have been printed incorrectly then you will still have your split charge relay operating. This will mean that while driving your leisure batteries are connected directly to your cab battery, this will result in the 'smart' system draining your leisure batteries in order to allow regenerative braking.
Have a word with David (who I believe installed the Victron B2B?) and see if you can disable the B2B easily and then check the leisure battery voltage (ideally with a well discharged LB) with and without the engine running, if it goes up with the engine running then the split charge relay is still operating.
and it shouldn't be.
Alternatively you could start the engine with the link removed/added and listen for the 'click' of the relay pulling in shortly after you start the engine.

 

[wildebus]

Something which is not that helpful is the way NDS seem to use the same model number for quite different products, and so when comparing what would seem to be just iterations of the same unit you see very different information.
I was searching for some information on the system (the box they refer to as a shunt) and for the same part number (the bit in front of the "-" anyway), I found a manual with a totally different order of fuses and jumpers.
So I am very wary about looking at one system and using it as a basis of how another could be set by altering jumpers, etc. They appear to use the bit AFTER the dash as a major model type which is, at least to me, odd and confusing.


Merl, bear in mind also that unlike in yours, in Bills case we did not really ADD a B2B. There was already a factory-fit B2B installed.
So you have make the assumption that the settings were correct for the supplied configuration as a starting point and was setup to work with a B2B installed. Otherwise where do you go? Believe nothing and rebuild the whole motorhome?
Quite simply the fitted B2B had gone bad with some kind of internal fault and was dead. This was nothing to do with the settings, it was an internal fail (and when put on the bench on its own, same fault - direct short from IN to GND causing protective fuse to immediately blow). The new B2B was not really an ADDITION, but a replacement. Key difference here I think.
Old B2B had 3 cables ... IN, OUT & GND.
New B2B had 3 cables... Now moving over 3 cables from old to the new should not make one iota of difference to the configuration. There should be no need to start moving jumpers to enable or disable stuff unless you think Rapido cannot build their motorhomes correctly? Which would be a disappointing situation.

As far as the Victron B2B is concerned, it has a specific "Smart Alternator" setting and a particular operating algorithm for this. So again, you have to take some credence of the research and development a company makes, especially one like Victron, into their product and trust they have a pretty good idea what they are doing. They won't be infallible by any means, but a bit of credit due I think?

As it happens, Bill has essentially confirmed multiple times in our conversations that without an operating B2B (be it either the failed original, or the new one disabled), that there is no charging of the batteries. He has the luxury due to the devices fitted to see the starter battery value on the B2B app; the leisure battery voltage on three different apps; plus the actual current into the batteries on another App, so a good level of info.

 

[Fisherman]

As has already been hinted at the split charge relay option provided by the Nordeletronica must be disabled when you're adding a B2B . The Nord manual says that to achieve this you need to make sure link 6 is IN PLACE on the main circuit board.
Now, here's the thing. I have a nordeletrinica unit (earlier than yours)and when I installed MY B2B I had to REMOVE a link which would make sense. The notes even say that the link "connects to the negative" so that to me says the link provides the negative for the relay coil and if so then the instructions are wrong. IF Nord have made a mistake and installers are following instructions that have been printed incorrectly then you will still have your split charge relay operating. This will mean that while driving your leisure batteries are connected directly to your cab battery, this will result in the 'smart' system draining your leisure batteries in order to allow regenerative braking.
Have a word with David (who I believe installed the Victron B2B?) and see if you can disable the B2B easily and then check the leisure battery voltage (ideally with a well discharged LB) with and without the engine running, if it goes up with the engine running then the split charge relay is still operating.
and it shouldn't be.
Alternatively you could start the engine with the link removed/added and listen for the 'click' of the relay pulling in shortly after you start the engine.

I reckon Rapido know their stuff, this is our third van, and this is by far the best in terms of build quality we have owned. I have some knowledge of electrics and the electrical installation work looks to be excellent. I would be flabbergasted if they failed to instal a B2B properly.
I reckon David nailed it Merl, but many thanks for your input, I really do appreciate it. One thing David did not mention was the user defined settings available on the victron unit, possibly there may be possibilities there, who knows. But with the equipment I have here I am able to monitor what’s going on very precisely, and I have tried many configurations with no real success. I am hoping that there is way around this without (at times) switching the fridge to gas. But right now I have to be flexible unless a solution comes up. But many many thanks again Merl.

 

[Okta]

In days of old when split charge relays simply linked the leisure and engine batteries it didn’t really matter if the fridge 12V was powered from the leisure side of the system. However now that the systems are separated it makes a difference. If you have a 30A B2B supply half of it will go to powering the fridge leaving only 15A for the battery. @Fisherman would it be possible to create a new supply from the engine battery to the fridge with a D+ operated relay? This would have 2 advantages. Firstly it would save gas but still leave the whole of the B2B supply for the leisure battery. Secondly it would put the fridge load on the engine battery where the smart alternator would notice it and provide extra power to cover the drain.

 

[MERL]

As it happens, Bill has essentially confirmed multiple times in our conversations that without an operating B2B (be it either the failed original, or the new one disabled), that there is no charging of the batteries.

Job done and theory dismissed.
No slur on your installation was intended David, I'd have done exactly the same as you. Simply suggesting a diagnosis that would eliminate the possibility of Rapido following arse backwards instructions.
Years ago I fitted a water softener, it had arrows moulded into the plastic manifold showing the Direction of flow, in and out. It worked crap and a rep from the company came out to assess the installation which he pointed out was "the wrong way round" I showed him the arrows and he said "Well those arrows are incorrect and are backwards, you should have gone on the drawing in the booklet which shows them connected opposite"
I said, " don't you think the booklet should have 'ignore the arrows' printed? Or the false arrows removed from the manifold? "Welllllllll I suppose so" was he reply. I pointed out that ultimately they had a product and booklet with conflicting info but he still suggested that I was the dumb ass who'd piped it up backwards and I'd be getting a bill for his visit. "Bring it on, we'll see what the judge says when it goes to court cos I won't be paying" Never did get a bill.
I know the issue with Nord type numbers, I can find 3 different PCB layouts on the net for my particular model. As it happens the actual PCB layout that I have doesn't match ANY and doesn't actually have the jumper to disable the SCR included, for some reason they'd missed it off! So I had to improvise by removing a transistor that brings the relay in. Good old Nord!

 

[wildebus]

Job done and theory dismissed.
No slur on your installation was intended David, I'd have done exactly the same as you. Simply suggesting a diagnosis that would eliminate the possibility of Rapido following arse backwards instructions.

Merl, none take in any way. I have the advantage of knowing what was done first hand which you can only gather from posts here.
I have to say I am impressed with the NDS kit and the options and principles within it. It has features and flexibilities that are really good.
Not quite as impressed with the clarity of the documentation with it, but that is fairly typical of some companies that make the best stuff - their technical authoring is lagging.
The fact that their B2B charger was an very early life failure? It happens and to the very best of kit, so just bad luck (easier for me to say as not my charger, I know)

Years ago I fitted a water softener, it had arrows moulded into the plastic manifold showing the Direction of flow, in and out. It worked crap and a rep from the company came out to assess the installation which he pointed out was "the wrong way round" I showed him the arrows and he said "Well those arrows are incorrect and are backwards, you should have gone on the drawing in the booklet which shows them connected opposite"
I said, " don't you think the booklet should have 'ignore the arrows' printed? Or the false arrows removed from the manifold? "Welllllllll I suppose so" was he reply. I pointed out that ultimately they had a product and booklet with conflicting info but he still suggested that I was the dumb ass who'd piped it up backwards and I'd be getting a bill for his visit. "Bring it on, we'll see what the judge says when it goes to court cos I won't be paying" Never did get a bill.

well, we all know what assumption stands for, but we still all make them You see similar markings on other kit as well ... For example, MC4 solar connectors with a "+" and a red band. People assume that means it is for Positive, but it means nothing, nadda, ziltch. However you get fitters and dealers still wiring up solar backwards as they follow the marks.

I know the issue with Nord type numbers, I can find 3 different PCB layouts on the net for my particular model. As it happens the actual PCB layout that I have doesn't match ANY and doesn't actually have the jumper to disable the SCR included, for some reason they'd missed it off! So I had to improvise by removing a transistor that brings the relay in. Good old Nord!

I sent a message to the parent company yesterday with a question. Once we get (hopefully) a dialog established, I will ask some for more info (Nordelectronica have the same parent company as CBE, who I really like as well, and ALKO, so I do rate them as a top brand without any question. But the published info is lacking).

 

[Fisherman]

In days of old when split charge relays simply linked the leisure and engine batteries it didn’t really matter if the fridge 12V was powered from the leisure side of the system. However now that the systems are separated it makes a difference. If you have a 30A B2B supply half of it will go to powering the fridge leaving only 15A for the battery. @Fisherman would it be possible to create a new supply from the engine battery to the fridge with a D+ operated relay? This would have 2 advantages. Firstly it would save gas but still leave the whole of the B2B supply for the leisure battery. Secondly it would put the fridge load on the engine battery where the smart alternator would notice it and provide extra power to cover the drain.

Hi Okta I will leave this to David.
But I can say the previous NDS B2B did have a D+ connection, and the cable is still available.
Many thanks Okta

 

[Nabsim]

In days of old when split charge relays simply linked the leisure and engine batteries it didn’t really matter if the fridge 12V was powered from the leisure side of the system. However now that the systems are separated it makes a difference. If you have a 30A B2B supply half of it will go to powering the fridge leaving only 15A for the battery. @Fisherman would it be possible to create a new supply from the engine battery to the fridge with a D+ operated relay? This would have 2 advantages. Firstly it would save gas but still leave the whole of the B2B supply for the leisure battery. Secondly it would put the fridge load on the engine battery where the smart alternator would notice it and provide extra power to cover the drain.

I understand what you mean here but not the bit about the fridge taking 15A and then only 15A going to the battery. My compressor fridge, diesel heater etc I is wired from my hab battery’s and with everything switched on I get the full 30A going to my batterys. I suppose it helps that mine will push up to 38/39A though.
Everything will be pulling from the battery’s so I guess you mean it only leaves 15A excess for the battery’s after accounting for what’s being used as well?

 

[MERL]

would it be possible to create a new supply from the engine battery to the fridge with a D+ operated relay?

No need to create one because it already exists. Basically you mean use the dedicated absorption fridge output to power the absorption fridge

 

[Okta]

No need to create one because it already exists. Basically you mean use the dedicated absorption fridge output to power the absorption fridge

Perhaps not. I don’t have first hand knowledge of the Nordelectronica unit but from what @Fisherman has said it sounds like his dedicated absorption fridge output is attached to his leisure battery not his engine one. This is the same as my CBE unit, it wouldn’t matter if the split charge relay was combining the two batteries as one but because they are properly separated by a B2B it makes a big difference. In my case the 40A battery charge provided by the B2B drops to 25A as soon as the fridge switches to 12V operation. This is because the fridge is using 15 of the 40 Amps available. I live with this most of the time but if the battery is particularly discharged I sometimes switch the fridge to gas operation.

At #109 @Fisherman said “ I am hoping that there is way around this without (at times) switching the fridge to gas. But right now I have to be flexible unless a solution comes up.” My suggestion was a possible solution to this problem which would leave all the B2B output available for battery charging.

The only distribution unit I have personally come across that has a dedicated separate 12V fridge feed coming from the engine battery was a Schaudt EBL.

 

[wildebus]

The only distribution unit I have personally come across that has a dedicated separate 12V fridge feed coming from the engine battery was a Schaudt EBL.

The Sargent systems do this. Depending on the age of the van, it was initially a simple relay which was controlled by the D+ signal but later on they put this operation into a control box - EM40 or EM50 - that is installed in conjunction with the Sargent EC PDU.
This contols the circuitry for a few Starter Battery related things such as the Fridge Power and the Electric Step (for example, you can configure the step to auto-retract when you lock the doors and extend when you unlock them,or just work off the switch if you prefer, and it auto-retracts when engine started). I think because these functions are relatively high current, they didn't want to run them through the PDU PCBs?

I think the lastest EC models don't use an EM box?

 

[Deemax]

Anyone had problems with smart alternator as fitted on recent (3 year old) Euro 6 motorhomes. My engine battery charge voltage fluctuates randomly between 12.4 and 14.2V, it has always seemed somewhat erratic but now much more so? It wouldn’t start for 10 minutes or so after a break this morning, even though when it did it was immediate with no sign of weakness from the battery in cranking.

Presently at a garage in Ayr where AA took me. They’ve measured voltage at the alternator terminals and their readings agree with mine, but they are somewhat flummoxed. Despite the low readings it usually rises back to 12.6V after a rest.

I can’t get a Fiat place to even look at it for over a week and we are due on the ferry to Ireland on Wednesday. Reluctant to just order a new alternator owing to high cost, and uncertainty that the problem may actually lie with other elements of the smart alternator control electrics. Looking online there seem to have been lots of problems with these, but no clear answers.

Just wondered if others on the forum had had the issue.

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? I am having the same issue and today spent one hour at a toll plaza after accidentally turning the engine off. Not Good. I think it has something to do with insufficient voltage from the battery. It has happened several times always in inconvenient places and most of the time after driving for a considerable period of time. Any help would be appreciated. Based in Ireland. 2020 Burstner Argos 747-2 Fiat Ducato Base

 

[barge1914]

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? I am having the same issue and today spent one hour at a toll plaza after accidentally turning the engine off. Not Good. I think it has something to do with insufficient voltage from the battery. It has happened several times always in inconvenient places and most of the time after driving for a considerable period of time. Any help would be appreciated. Based in Ireland. 2020 Burstner Argos 747-2 Fiat Ducato Base

My problem of non-starting turned out to have nothing to do with the smart alternator. The issue was the Phantom immobiliser, on a whim I called Phantom and they did a remote reset after which it was ok. However it happened again this year. I spoke to them. They say what appears to be happening is when it gets hot the immobiliser expands and temporarily seizes. Once it’s cooled a bit it will start again. When I get home they will relocate it to a cooler location.
The alternator continues to give odd low voltage readings, but it always comes back up when stopped a while, I think it’s just the way they work. Especially when it’s been on mains charge, the alternator tends to want the voltage to drop to give itself some headroom so it can operate its regenerative function.

 

[QFour]

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? I am having the same issue and today spent one hour at a toll plaza after accidentally turning the engine off. Not Good. I think it has something to do with insufficient voltage from the battery. It has happened several times always in inconvenient places and most of the time after driving for a considerable period of time. Any help would be appreciated. Based in Ireland. 2020 Burstner Argos 747-2 Fiat Ducato Base

Ohhh someone else with the same mysterious engine will not start after stopping for a short period. Welcome to the club. Its a bit of a pain in the neck. Our local Fiat Professional Dealer checked everything under warranty but found nothing. Our Alarm fitter checked his cabling and found nothing. I bought a starter motor off ebay from a wreck only 200 numbers from mine. The old ones don't fit they have a different number of teeth. You cannot change the solonoid its part of the starter. I took the starter I removed back to Fiat and asked them to get it checked and they just provided a new one so I have a spare. I can tell you its got absolutely nothing to do with the battery. Its just electrical gremlins. It doesn't make a lot of sense its just a wire from the ignition that goes to the starter solonoid. The Alarm guy cuts it for the immobiliser. Ours is an auto so there must be something somewhere that checks the gear position.

Beats me why it always happens at the most inconvenient times but I have a solution.