English Aires

[AndyC]

Hi again Andyc,most people will convert a van because it can be simple and cheap to do so,you might already know that to register a van as a motorhome it has to be inspected and a one of tax payment has to be paid,a lot of people don't wan't the hassle of having to do that especialy now some insurance companys will insure vans on a motorhome basis,as i said to keep it simple.We are all looking at a way of keeping the undesirables away and as i have said before wardens/inspectors would have the powers to move them on if they do not stick to the rules. Lets not complicate matters and give the councils more reason to say no,cheers Shawbags.

The DVLA will usually require to inspect a vehicle when a change of body type to 'motor caravan' is requested, but I don't think there is any payment required unless the change affects the taxation class, which won't usually be the case. The insurers must be notified of the changes and some will may require the vehicle to be registered as a motor caravan on the V5C.

I agree that the rules need to be kept simple and must allow councils to take sanctions against those that don't comply with them. The problem, as we are finding, is how to define those rules.

Should any type of vehicle be permitted to stay overnight, or should the permission be restricted to a certain class or classes of vehicle?

We need to see things from the councils point of view, much as we might like to see the freedom for UK 'aires' to be available to a wide range of vehicles, the councils will want to ensure that they have simple, effective and understandable enforcement powers. I can't think of a simpler definition for the type of vehicles permitted to use UK 'aires' than those registered as 'motor caravan' on the V5C. It's easily understood and easily verified.

AndyC

 

[vwalan]

hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.

 

[Byronic]

I would not approach any Council or Authority to make special provision for motor caravans ie specifically Aires.
The small financial returns to any community are going to be outweighed by the general public's' shall we say negative attitude to the travelling community, which like it or not we are loosely aligned in the public imagination, and thoughts of specific areas being set aside for any group of people with the word "caravan" included in their description will reinforce this attitude. I therefore can't see any meaningful number of Aires being permitted and perhaps because the matter has been brought to the Public's and Authority's attention even more more restrictions might be imposed, as has been stated already it's twice as crowded here as France and this must have a bearing on attitude/cultural differences and the population disparity is only likely to increase.
Furthermore, once an aire has been established I can imagine that that will be the "compulsory" place to stop,ie no more true Wild Camping. Even with impending job cuts there's bound to be some one charged with looking out for carpark overnighting.
The DVLA have never bothered to inspect any of the 4 vans I've converted or asked for photos.
Up to about 1990 you had to pay Duty when converting a commercial van to a motorcamper this was based on the Tax Free cost of the van when bought so it could be a significant sum. Pleased when they got rid of that.

 

[Tbear]

hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.

Alan

Do you not think that you get away with just parking up on the roadside as you (not personally) look more like a truck than a motorhome.

Richard

 

[Fleming]

About signs:
All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !!
Motorhomes may park also on general parkings with the E9a sign (a 'P') however not when the sign E9b is up (P sign with a car under it); only for cars, motorcycles, minibusses.( or the same: only for busses, for lorries...)
I hope this clears up the mist (and myths)

 

[John H]

About signs:
All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !!
Motorhomes may park also on general parkings with the E9a sign (a 'P') however not when the sign E9b is up (P sign with a car under it); only for cars, motorcycles, minibusses.( or the same: only for busses, for lorries...)
I hope this clears up the mist (and myths)

It does - and in doing so makes your earlier comment about certain sectors of society being banned from aires even less understandable.

 

[vwalan]

hi tbear .yes stealth is the answer . but i used to use other vehicles . usually vw as i ran a vw garage . but sensible parking and careful observation usually plays the greatest part. you can have a big group parked in one place nothing said move down the road .cant stay more than an hour and get asked to move. imagine my truck, a bright purple ex prison truck , a really high man truck . a merc truck . we very often all travel together . hardly ever get asked to move . but we dont always park with the rest of the campers . i must say mine as a truck i was told by traffico last year in spain can stop one night to get sleep just about anywhere . as a car and caravan you can stop one night i making a journey and get tired . again just about anywhere not near the coast . but dont bank on it. the hard bit is always if sitting out side on chairs etc .it doesnt go dowen well anywhere. having said that when in germany on m,bikes we look for a park, sleep in a park hut or bandstand even put the bikes in under cover still had no probs. i think every society doesnt like campers that look like campers . but we never stay to long keep moving .may be go and come back after a while, but keep moving . cheers alan.

 

[AndyC]

About signs:
All designated aires in France (and ALL other countries on the continent) are provided with the legal sign 'E9h' (a 'P' with a motorhome under it). (the E means: applies to the whole EU -thus also GB !)
This sign says: 'parking ONLY for motorhomes' which excludes cars, lorries, caravans ...
There's is NO legal sign: forbidden for motorhomes !!
Motorhomes may park also on general parkings with the E9a sign (a 'P') however not when the sign E9b is up (P sign with a car under it); only for cars, motorcycles, minibusses.( or the same: only for busses, for lorries...)
I hope this clears up the mist (and myths)

Not necessarily!

The signs may be 'available' for universal use in the EU but that doesn't mean that the individual countries have the legislation in place to allow them to be used.

In the UK all traffic signs must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which prescribes the exact form of signs that can be used. There is lots of info here: Traffic Signs and Signals with drawings for all approved UK signs and road markings here: Working drawings for traffic signs

As far as I'm aware the motorhome parking sign is not included and therefore it's use has no meaning in UK law. There is however a sign included which indicates parking for a car and caravan, in practice this sign would exclude the parking of a motorhome!

Incidentally, one of the commonly used methods of appealing PCNs is to prove that a non-approved form of signage or road marking was used.

AndyC

 

[vwalan]

or speeding . every sign road marking and all the correct litegation must be adered to. i know abit about signage . we can forget anything thats not in the traffic signs regulations and general directions 2002 and any revised bits . every thing really does have to be exact. almost to the millimetre . there is alot of problems going on in europe at the moment as the eu law directive116/2001/cee this gives the impression that a m,home is a car . spain as already had a slap by the eu for trying to diferentiate. best we dont go down that route .

 

[Deleted member 967]

Not necessarily!

The signs may be 'available' for universal use in the EU but that doesn't mean that the individual countries have the legislation in place to allow them to be used.

In the UK all traffic signs must comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which prescribes the exact form of signs that can be used. There is lots of info here: Traffic Signs and Signals with drawings for all approved UK signs and road markings here: Working drawings for traffic signs

As far as I'm aware the motorhome parking sign is not included and therefore it's use has no meaning in UK law. There is however a sign included which indicates parking for a car and caravan, in practice this sign would exclude the parking of a motorhome!

Incidentally, one of the commonly used methods of appealing PCNs is to prove that a non-approved form of signage or road marking was used.

AndyC

Hi Andy
In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan. So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed. However this also goes the other way as well.

 

[Tbear]

Hi Andy
In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan. So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed. However this also goes the other way as well.

Are we not getting tied down with statute law and forgetting common law and president.
If you can get a judge to rule Black is White, then black is white under the law. However there may be an appeal

 

[AndyC]

Hi Andy
In UK law (1960 Act) a Motorhome is a Caravan. So a motorhome should be able to park anywhere a sign, showing caravan parking is displayed. However this also goes the other way as well.

But the 'approved' supplementary sign shows a car and caravan combination (P804.3) which together with the standard P sign (P801) indicates that the parking place is reserved for car and caravan combinations only. I guess a motorhome with a toad would be ok

I think I'll suggest to the DfT that there is a need for an additional supplementary sign showing a motor caravan!

Incidentally the definition of 'caravan' which includes a motorhome is only applicable within the 1960 Act. Use of the term 'caravan' outside of the remit of the Act would ultimately be determined by a court unless it was accompanied by the phrase 'as defined in The Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960'. It may be that a court would decide that, for purposes not related to the 1960 Act, a caravan and a motor caravan were in fact different types of vehicle. Not that it would be of much help to us, since we are discussing places where motor caravans may be occupied 'for the purposes of human habitation', which is covered by the Act.

AndyC

 

[AndyC]

Are we not getting tied down with statute law and forgetting common law and president.
If you can get a judge to rule Black is White, then black is white under the law. However there may be an appeal

It makes for an interesting discussion though!

All this stuff needs to be thrashed out if any progress is to made.

AndyC

 

[shawbags]

hi shawbags unfortunately you are miss informed .dvla may not always want to see the van .photos can suffice .i get them to come out and look its free . there are definitions to be a m,home you cant get the benefits of being a motor home if you arent a m,home. thats plain and simple. unfortunately you may not have enough in your van to get it passed as a motor home if thats so then its not a m,home. i,ve been building m,homes since the early 70,s and there as been gains in being a m,home not a van . but no where do you have to have windows to be a m,home. even the best bought motor home really is a chassis cab converted you need it to be a m,home or cant use the aires thats it . i use them in my truck abroad ,never been asked to move . i could be . i have had several vw,s with no windows built for securiyty and for the stealth aspect. it works . but they must have whats needed or you cant stop on the places for m,homes . its not hard to build to the required definition. i for one could say no you wont count . but then my truck doesnt either. at the moment you and i could be the undesirables as we dont have a motor home. but i do understand that a specification as to be issued. i personaly have never realy had a problem parking or getting water etc . i have never /cant dont know how to look at the poi on this site . never use sat nav. do have a 1999 aires book of france but hardly use it. just find a nice place stop ,move on find another. but i realise many dont have this inbuilt ability . been travelling and m,homeing since a child in the early sixties . still park in places we parked when i was a child. if you dont want the hassle of building a m,home then expect to be moved on cheers alan.

Hi there,i remember a bloke i worked with converted a van to a camper and because he added more seats he had to pay a one off payment because it was classed more as a car that obviousley could carry pasengers,i think it was about £95 at the time (15 years ago),hope this explains what i'm getting at i'm no expert please reply,cheers Shawbags.

 

[Christine1310]

Hi Tbear, This subject has been raised and discussed many times on many forums without any definitive solution. So I really wish you good luck with your efforts and hope you get somewhere.

I noticed on this thread that, and I quote, 'Local members of the Motor Caravanners' Club (MCC) approached Carrickfergus Borough Council and, as a result, the Council have installed a motorhome service unit at the Harbour car park and another at Whitehead car park (approx 4 miles in the direction of Larne). Both carparks have easy access and no overnight restrictions.' Are you a member of the MCC, if so, maybe they could point you in the right direction about how they approached their council and what arguments they used. Having the backup of a national club may throw some weight behind any request.

Best of luck.

 

[vwalan]

hi he may have had to pay window tax or now its vat. there never as been a charge . i have been involved building campers all my life . friends worked for devon campers and i bought lots of their bits when they left exeter .i hear alsorts but at one time it was called window tax since the onset of vat you had to pay a percentage to 7yr old . but you dont need windows .or even a rear /side door . there are alot of rubbish on the web about what you need but i just work to the dept of transports definition and i have a copy of how to import a vehicle into great britain.on page 30-31 it gives a very good explnation of whats required . in the 60,s you did have to have a water supply . not a sink but fixed water. later that got discontinude . its very easy to become a m,home not worth not doing it. cheers alan.

 

[Byronic]

Alan on previous post I've stated that on completion 4 conversions I've never had to have inspection or show photos to the DVLA. but I do remember having to pay a type of Betterment Tax up to 1990, due to new commercial vans being tax free, but m/campers were not.The tax was estimated on receipts for the work and parts involved.

 

[vwalan]

i was building vans commercially right through the 70,80,s 90,s on and off . at one time you payed window tax .then when vat came out you had to pay athe vat back on a sliding scale upto 7 yrs old . there was for a brief while an inspection to value it for tax occasionally. about 7 yrs ago they started this photo .inspection bit. it differs through out the country .here you either go to them or they come to you. i had them to bobs truck asnd got them to look at my neighbours all at the same time once . gary nx door was having dificulties with swansea . got him his log book 3 days later. they even came out on a saturday to inspect ass we were in a hurry to finish and bob go up to scotland. before then you could just send the log book if it was an old van and it came back what ever you told them . cheers alan.

 

[AndyC]

Hi Tbear, This subject has been raised and discussed many times on many forums without any definitive solution. So I really wish you good luck with your efforts and hope you get somewhere.

I noticed on this thread that, and I quote, 'Local members of the Motor Caravanners' Club (MCC) approached Carrickfergus Borough Council and, as a result, the Council have installed a motorhome service unit at the Harbour car park and another at Whitehead car park (approx 4 miles in the direction of Larne). Both carparks have easy access and no overnight restrictions.' Are you a member of the MCC, if so, maybe they could point you in the right direction about how they approached their council and what arguments they used. Having the backup of a national club may throw some weight behind any request.

Best of luck.

It was the MCC Northern Ireland group, who seem to be quite pro-active in this respect. The main part of the MCC (apart from one or two individuals) have no interest in anything other than being a social and rallying club, as far as I can tell.

AndyC

 

[Byronic]

That explains it, the last time I converted a van was more than 7 years ago so predates having to show photos.