English Aires

[Deleted member 967]

It was the MCC Northern Ireland group, who seem to be quite pro-active in this respect. The main part of the MCC (apart from one or two individuals) have no interest in anything other than being a social and rallying club, as far as I can tell.

AndyC

Hi Andy & Tbear

I get the same feeling about the MCC. I contacted MCC as did others and didn't even get an acknowledgement when the UK Aires issue was on the Your Freedom Gov Website. It may be worth contacting the Northern Ireland Group for information on how they got the NI Aires established.

The MCC seem to fragmented to be of any use as a lobying body.

 

[Tbear]

Hi Andy & Tbear

I get the same feeling about the MCC. I contacted MCC as did others and didn't even get an acknowledgement when the UK Aires issue was on the Your Freedom Gov Website. It may be worth contacting the Northern Ireland Group for information on how they got the NI Aires established.

The MCC seem to fragmented to be of any use as a lobying body.

I know what the problems are going to be.

1/ Set up Cost
2/ Parking not wanting to remove hight barriers put there to keep gypsies out.

Answers on a postcard

 

[Deleted member 967]

I know what the problems are going to be.

1/ Set up Cost
2/ Parking not wanting to remove hight barriers put there to keep gypsies out.

Answers on a postcard

My Postcard

1/ Set up costs could be minimal, if an existing car park is used when it would normally be closed. In fact some income could be made. Coach parks are often only required during summer months and then only from about 10am to early evening.

2/ This is the hardest problem to overcome. We need to get over to them that we are self contained and are responsible people.
Barriers can be opened or an area left without barriers as I have seen on some French Aires. St Cast Le Guildo N 48.608352° E -2.230001° (Aires St Cast, du Baye - ST CAST LE GUILDO Pointe du Baye - 35 Places )has such an arangement, where the area is divided for Camping Cars and a barrier restricts parking to below 2 metres in another part on the same parking area. Rubbish and recycling skips are provided for campers and local to use, but water and waste dump is in the village beside the road. N 48.629308° E -2.255128° (Aires St Cast - ST CAST LE GUILDO Euro Relais 2 Euro 10 places/roadside) Euro Relais beside Tennis Courts 2 Euro. No separate tap for cleaning cassette.

Another point we need to take into consideration is the need for change of use from Car Park, to permit overnight sleeping/cooking and eating. Unlike Cls there is no "Permitted Development" provision in the part of the 1960 Act that allows councils to set up caravan site without needing a caravan sites licence.
If an exempted club were to provide these facilities then planning permission or a site licence would not be needed, but 5 vans limit would result.

 

[Tbear]

My Postcard

1/ Set up costs could be minimal, if an existing car park is used when it would normally be closed. In fact some income could be made. Coach parks are often only required during summer months and then only from about 10am to early evening.

2/ This is the hardest problem to overcome. We need to get over to them that we are self contained and are responsible people.
Barriers can be opened or an area left without barriers as I have seen on some French Aires. St Cast Le Guildo N 48.608352° E -2.230001° (Aires St Cast, du Baye - ST CAST LE GUILDO Pointe du Baye - 35 Places )has such an arangement, where the area is divided for Camping Cars and a barrier restricts parking to below 2 metres in another part on the same parking area. Rubbish and recycling skips are provided for campers and local to use, but water and waste dump is in the village beside the road. N 48.629308° E -2.255128° (Aires St Cast - ST CAST LE GUILDO Euro Relais 2 Euro 10 places/roadside) Euro Relais beside Tennis Courts 2 Euro. No separate tap for cleaning cassette.

Another point we need to take into consideration is the need for change of use from Car Park, to permit overnight sleeping/cooking and eating. Unlike Cls there is no "Permitted Development" provision in the part of the 1960 Act that allows councils to set up caravan site without needing a caravan sites licence.
If an exempted club were to provide these facilities then planning permission or a site licence would not be needed, but 5 vans limit would result.

John

Sharing makes a lot of sense to me and as for planning permission, I think if they want to do this then permission will be granted. The problem still stands that Parking are not going to want that barrrier to come down and we may well need to share the access point. The carpark mentioned so far only has one posible point of entry. However none of this means that they could not setup a 5 van site on the outskirts of the city. We have a lorry park close to the A1 A47 junction but that gets used by "minority groups" . Shame as it has toilets and used to have a roadside cafe. Don't know if it still has. It could be made into an ideal spot as it overlooks the river. 52.583006,-0.411628

 

[shawbags]

its very difficult . i use aires in france etc . yes some say aires arent for caravans .but many do use them. as do hgv,s etc . all depends on the layout of the aires. even motor cycles and tents squeeze into a corner on many. also bicycles . i try to only use aires that are free . i also use truck stops ,garages ,bp very good. but we have to start somewhere . the definition of a m,home is very wide-scoped . as for aires yes if it looks like a camper .m,home we assume it is. ok. gets complicated as to can they have trailers . is a bambi ok what about a 38ft m,home etc even in france some are spoilt if a couple of very large m,homes take over . we do have to be sensible and try to get it right . the definition was set up years ago for the benefit of m,homes . now its a bad definition or is it. as a motor home it does get special priveledges . ie . mot for heavier ones . better insurance policies .we are now trying to get parking .facilities just for m,homes . we must tread carefully . i think we do have to accept that others will use the facility as in people with out being a holiday m,homer . travellers come in all sorts of disguises and vehicles . i have known french people live on aires permanently get letters delivered by the postman and work in hospitals in good jobs. it was their address nobody cared but it was in france. not uk. can we ever get to that i dont think so. we cant even agree here and we are all m,homers of some sort. cheers alan.

Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.

 

[Byronic]

Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.

Which is why there's so much opposition in this country to providing Aires. You can't compare this country's Public attitude to motorhoming to that of France, there are significant differences to overcome in simulating their situation. France in the main has enough rural space to tolerate well spread traveller communities so in the main you don't find them crowding out the Tourist Aires.
You' ve only got to read the threads to see how problematical it is to get an Aire sanctioned in this country.

 

[vwalan]

hi shawbags .they stay .you go.there could be time limmits . as in france to regulate the staying . the park is for motor homes . you cant have both sides of the coin. i dont have a problem with hippies or gypsies or any body .but if we set a standard thats the standard . if it says m,homes only then m,homes only . if i or others stay we could be moved off .but if its a motor home i,m in i stay. we can try to cheat a bit .but rules are rules. it does seem you have a problem with hippies . why. cheers alan.

 

[Byronic]

Once you put in time limits then somebody has to police them and the bother and cost of all that palaver will make the council question whether aires are worth the bother.
You can be sure that in this country there will be a great temptation for some to overstay.
The truth is, even in France many Aires are having time limits imposed if users don't obey the rules then perhaps some of them wil be closed, lets hope not.

 

[vwalan]

many aires in france have time limits. .some dont . but every thing depends on how you work it . some aires are part of an already policed car park. some you have to pay an attendant .unless you are french then you get up early and scarper before the attendant arrives . any aire you pay to park as to be policed if you want to monitor it. if its free then you pay to use the bourne . but at this moment are they going to be free for parking or a small charge . if a time limit is posted on the sign it does give notice to allow councils to act . there really is alot to decide its not easy . cant see many like the french ones with 250 spaces or asomething like it . free leccy etc . but would be nice. cheers alan.

 

[Byronic]

Paying for using an Aire and somebody collecting the money is one thing, what I'm getting at is the policing of the person or persons who resists moving on, quoting homelessness or Human Rights as a right to stay in a place designated as being for motorhomes ie not just for parking vehicles.

 

[John H]

Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.

If people are breaking the law (relating to littering, public nuisance and a whole raft of other statutes) then they can be dealt with, irrespective of whether they are in a motorhome or in a go-kart - and irrespective of whether they are hippies or not (what is your problem with hippies?).

 

[John H]

The time limit imposed on some French (and Spanish and Portuguese etc) aires is there to allow the authorities to evict people if they are behaving irresponsibly. If there is plenty of space (ie off-season) and you are behaving yourself, the police rarely intervene. Most such rules/laws are there as a back-up if needed; few are imposed strictly if you are sensible and causing no-one offence. But that is not an excuse for setting up semi-permanent residence!

 

[Deleted member 967]

Once you put in time limits then somebody has to police them and the bother and cost of all that palaver will make the council question whether aires are worth the bother.
You can be sure that in this country there will be a great temptation for some to overstay.
The truth is, even in France many Aires are having time limits imposed if users don't obey the rules then perhaps some of them wil be closed, lets hope not.

Most car parks have gates that are locked at night to prevent unauthoriesed use. This is another reason given for not allowing motorhomes to overnight.
The person who comes to lock up could move on those not entitled to stay and collect the fee from those that are allowed to stay.

Hippies (New Age Travellers) are not protected by the rules for Gypies and Irish Travellers so thay can be moved without a breach of Human Rights.

 

[vwalan]

hippies and new age travellers have the same rights as you so why would you want to move them on . if breaking some bye law or the ruling of the aire then anyone can be moved on. m,homers arent privaliged people .

 

[John H]

Hippies (New Age Travellers) are not protected by the rules for Gypies and Irish Travellers so thay can be moved without a breach of Human Rights.

We are all protected by the same human rights legislation - unless you happen to be a grapefruit or a slug!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 967]

We are all protected by the same human rights legislation - unless you happen to be a grapefruit or a slug!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have asked this question from an official website for travellers.

What differentiates a person as a "Traveller", to one who travels the roads?

When do you stop being a "Traveler"? How many generations before you cease to be a traveller?
How long do you have to travel before you become a "Traveler"?

My Great Grandfather, of Irish origin, had a small holding where he used to over-winter Irish Tinker/Traveller families. My wifes Great Great Aunt was a Irish Tinker. Does that give us rights to be considered as "Travellers".

I lived full time in caravans for 9 years of my working life. The rest of the time I was brick based. Does that give me some claim to be ethnicly considered as a "Traveler"?

John Thompson

I quote their reply:
Dear John
Well the biggest groups of Travellers we work with are Irish Travellers, Romany Gypsies and new Travellers.
Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies are recognised ethnic minorities in England, and are protected by the Race Relations Act, new Travellers are not (they have generally chosen a travelling life, rather than being born into it). We often use the generic term Traveller to cover all these groups.
Legislation which covers evictions from the roadside is the same as to how it affects all groups.
Only Irish Travellers and Romany Gypsies are protected from racial discrimination.
Planning law has a slightly different definition for a 'Gypsy' and you do have to show that you have travelled or have a 'cultural aversion to bricks and mortar'.
I wouldn't say that you and your wife would be ethnically considered Travellers in any legal case, as you have only a distant heritage. However if you stop on the roadside you might get evicted using legislation aimed at Travellers.
Kind regards
Emma Nuttall
Advice & Policy Manager

The roadside includes verge, lay-by, Car park (public or private where the public have access).

Homelessness or any other reason gives no protection from being moved on.

Have a look at this site for the official position by Kirklees Council.

http://www.kirklees.gov.uk/answers/gypsy/gypsy.shtml#camp

 

[John H]

Exactly - Roma and others are afforded protection under the Race Relations Act (as indeed they should be) but the reply you quote makes no mention of human rights legislation which gives us ALL the same rights.

 

[Byronic]

I'm accused of being a bit of a slug sometimes.
Doesn't really matter the social or racial standing of an overstayer does it? He/she gets treated just the same surely, and told to go by whomever has the authority and to take their rubbish away. The point I'm making is that the accommodation pressures are such in this country that some people will be tempted to stay, the £200,000 RV. included. I'm not sure Local Authorities or the Police want the potential hassle.
If you're going to have pay to use an Aire then you might as well stay in a CL. Although you're supposed to be a member of the CC or the CandCC this is often overlooked and if the charge to stay on Motorway Services overnight are anything to go by then the CL might well be cheaper.

 

[Deleted member 967]

I'm accused of being a bit of a slug sometimes.
Doesn't really matter the social or racial standing of an overstayer does it? He/she gets treated just the same surely, and told to go by whomever has the authority and to take their rubbish away. The point I'm making is that the accommodation pressures are such in this country that some people will be tempted to stay, the £200,000 RV. included. I'm not sure Local Authorities or the Police want the potential hassle.
If you're going to have pay to use an Aire then you might as well stay in a CL. Although you're supposed to be a member of the CC or the CandCC this is often overlooked and if the charge to stay on Motorway Services overnight are anything to go by then the CL might well be cheaper.

I would expect to pay. Be it for a supply of service or to park. I do this when I visit France and use their Aires. We cannot expect to get them for nothing. Peace of mind when parked overnight is worth something.

Allan: I have no down on new age travellers. Yes they have the same rights as the rest of us. I was replying to the post

Originally Posted by shawbags
Ok,a load of hippies pull on to an aire, badly dressed,untidy van,smoke bellowing out of the top of the van and they set up the cooking gear but there van is registered as a motorhome,what then,cheers Shawbags.

 

[John H]

I would expect to pay. Be it for a supply of service or to park. I do this when I visit France and use their Aires. We cannot expect to get them for nothing. Peace of mind when parked overnight is worth something.

But in France (and other adjacent countries) there are MANY aires provided for free (sometimes even with free electricity). It seems that our European cousins have realised something that we (as a country) haven't - that is, if a car park is given over to motorhomes at night (when nobody else would be using it) then at least half the people who stop will buy something in the local area, thus boosting the local economy for nil or very little cost.