New signs put up in Wales regarding motorhomes seen in Barmouth car park and spotted in a layby

[MrSoapsud]

I wonder how much of the problem of inappropriate use of parking areas, that results in barriers and signs going up, is down to people hiring vans/MHs? These people are unlikely to be on forums like this or aware of what might be termed "etiquette", and, as has also been mentioned, be more likely to holiday abroad once things return to something more like "normal". They probably don't realise the after-effects of their behaviour, nor care if they're unlikely to do it again? Does there need to be some effort to educate these people, perhaps via the MH hire companies? Do they have an association or some such?

 

[Nesting Zombie]

Hi ya Mrsoapsud ,
The trouble is, Although it’s good points that you make, There’s little way of ‘Knowing’ let alone ‘Proving’ who’s ‘Irresponsible’ .
Let’s be honest it could just as well be a healthy mix of Picknickers, Day trippers, Fly Tippers, Doggers, Dog Walkers, Boy Racers & Criminal intentioned occupying park ups &/Or Lay-bys for extended periods of time as well as Hire van users & of course the less responsible Vanlifers all just having a bad attitude to Parking irresponsibly & discarding what they shouldn’t . & let’s be honest I would even wager that VERY FEW Commercial vehicles/Lorries etc have Bins for rubbish or dedicated Wash Facilities & Toilets Aboard, So Guess Where THAT lot ends up while taking Tacco breaks or Nights our .
The ‘Vanlifers’ as a whole are just a more recognised soft target to put the blame on I guess.

 

[GreggBear]

Good point Mr Z, and I'm in full agreement, it could be anyone. However, any kind of education aimed at any group of road users can only be a positive thing surely. I'd also like to point out that in all my years as a truck driver all over our green & pleasant land, never once did I litter anywhere, or crap in a layby or any other inappropriate location...
Not all bears £$%^ in the woods.....

 

[Nesting Zombie]

I Have, & on occasion still do, so top tip to all readers,,,
NEVER disturb a Zombie heading for the Woods with a spade & a Scented Dog poo bag to bring the used paper back !.

 

[Nesting Zombie]

Wouldn’t it be GREAT if my ‘Lethermans Multi Tool’ had a Fold our Spade

This time next year I could be a Millionaire

 

[alcam]

Good point Mr Z, and I'm in full agreement, it could be anyone. However, any kind of education aimed at any group of road users can only be a positive thing surely. I'd also like to point out that in all my years as a truck driver all over our green & pleasant land, never once did I litter anywhere, or crap in a layby or any other inappropriate location...
Not all bears £$%^ in the woods.....

Don't doubt you for a second but any lorry parking area I've seen here or mainland Europe is a stinkypish smelling tip

 

[mistericeman]

Don't doubt you for a second but any parking area I've seen here or mainland Europe is a stinkypish smelling tip

In fairness on the many many occasions over the last 50 years or so I've visited Barmouth,
The main car park and beach road have only ever suffered mildly from the usual day visitor detritus of fish, and chip wrappings/soft drinks cans.

I've never witnessed ANY of the usually quoted waste from 'Wild campers'

However visiting the popular close by site of Shell Island after a busy Bank Holiday weekend, where despite the £20 a night cost and provision of a modern toilet block along with several extra portaloo blocks (I'm talking good clean facility blocks NOT turdis's BTW)
And folks still defecate in bushes etc and leave £$%^ stained toilet roll festooned everywhere....

It really does a great deal to re enforce my dislike of humanity as a whole and hatred for crowds and groups of folks that are incapable of acting in a civilised manner.

 

[alcam]

In fairness on the many many occasions over the last 50 years or so I've visited Barmouth,
The main car park and beach road have only ever suffered mildly from the usual day visitor detritus of fish, and chip wrappings/soft drinks cans.

I've never witnessed ANY of the usually quoted waste from 'Wild campers'

However visiting the popular close by site of Shell Island after a busy Bank Holiday weekend, where despite the £20 a night cost and provision of a modern toilet block along with several extra portaloo blocks (I'm talking good clean facility blocks NOT turdis's BTW)
And folks still defecate in bushes etc and leave £$%^ stained toilet roll festooned everywhere....

It really does a great deal to re enforce my dislike of humanity as a whole and hatred for crowds and groups of folks that are incapable of acting in a civilised manner.

Sorry I meant lorry parking areas . Just edited post

 

[mistericeman]

Sorry I meant lorry parking areas . Just edited post

NOW that's a vastly different thing....

Take all the bits I said about Shell island after a, bank holiday and add being knee deep in bottles of Truckers tizer.... Grrrrr.

 

[Rolyan57]

I wonder how much of the problem of inappropriate use of parking areas, that results in barriers and signs going up, is down to people hiring vans/MHs? These people are unlikely to be on forums like this or aware of what might be termed "etiquette", and, as has also been mentioned, be more likely to holiday abroad once things return to something more like "normal". They probably don't realise the after-effects of their behaviour, nor care if they're unlikely to do it again? Does there need to be some effort to educate these people, perhaps via the MH hire companies? Do they have an association or some such?

I’m sure that some of the problem is due to newbie motorhome owners and hirers, due to the ignorance of the etiquette.

Plus, knowing some in the industry as I do, I strongly suspect it’s partly the fault of some hiring companies, and sales companies, who will say anything, anything, to make the sale. “Sure, park where you want, any time anywhere”.

Plus, the regular motorhomers who for many years have taken advantage of lax enforcement. The ones who said “I know the sign says no overnight camping and is legal but I’ve always got away with it”.

Will it return to some normality in the next few years. Probably, as holidays go back to ‘normal’. But it might be too late.

Sadly I don’t think your suggestion of using the hire companies to spread the message will work, as it goes against what they want (short term). I did think that perhaps all wild camping organisations could formally collate information; this was met with mixed response. But again, having been actively involved with campaigning for nearly 50 years (with subjects much bigger than parking to be honest) I know how difficult it is to get people involved. Even those of us committed to a particular cause sometimes struggle.

Re that particular sign, I would interpret it as saying:
1) no overnight camping in the car park, which may or may not be legal
2) please don’t camp in lay-bys, a request only
3) general info that you need the landowners permission, added to make it all sound official.

I think it was Robmac who suggested avoiding the car park and parking discreetly elsewhere, and that may be the best idea for now.

 

[Fisherman]

I’m sure that some of the problem is due to newbie motorhome owners and hirers, due to the ignorance of the etiquette.

Plus, knowing some in the industry as I do, I strongly suspect it’s partly the fault of some hiring companies, and sales companies, who will say anything, anything, to make the sale. “Sure, park where you want, any time anywhere”.

Plus, the regular motorhomers who for many years have taken advantage of lax enforcement. The ones who said “I know the sign says no overnight camping and is legal but I’ve always got away with it”.

Will it return to some normality in the next few years. Probably, as holidays go back to ‘normal’. But it might be too late.

Sadly I don’t think your suggestion of using the hire companies to spread the message will work, as it goes against what they want (short term). I did think that perhaps all wild camping organisations could formally collate information; this was met with mixed response. But again, having been actively involved with campaigning for nearly 50 years (with subjects much bigger than parking to be honest) I know how difficult it is to get people involved. Even those of us committed to a particular cause sometimes struggle.

Re that particular sign, I would interpret it as saying:
1) no overnight camping in the car park, which may or may not be legal
2) please don’t camp in lay-bys, a request only
3) general info that you need the landowners permission, added to make it all sound official.

I think it was Robmac who suggested avoiding the car park and parking discreetly elsewhere, and that may be the best idea for now.

Sorry but no overnight parking signs are not legally binding signs, and in Scotland they have not being enforced by police Scotland since 2012.
For reasons outwith my control I cannot post articles relating to this on here.
But try googling police Scotland and overnight parking to clarify this.

Also why should we as tax payers, who's taxes have been used to construct public carparks avoid using what we have paid for.
This in essence is what this is all about. If we cannot park in public places then only private places remain.
And without the permission of the private landowners we have no rights to park there either, in effect leaving us nowhere to park.
I know that some see these Aires as the solution to this 'apparent" problem, but speaking personally I reckon more access to public carparks would go a long way to resolving this situation.

 

[Rolyan57]

Sorry but no overnight parking signs are not legally binding signs, and in Scotland they have not being enforced by police Scotland since 2012.
For reasons outwith my control I cannot post articles relating to this on here.
But try googling police Scotland and overnight parking to clarify this.

Also why should we as tax payers, who's taxes have been used to construct public carparks avoid using what we have paid for.
This in essence is what this is all about. If we cannot park in public places then only private places remain.
And without the permission of the private landowners we have no rights to park there either, in effect leaving us nowhere to park.
I know that some see these Aires as the solution to this 'apparent" problem, but speaking personally I reckon more access to public carparks would go a long way to resolving this situation.

Hi Bill - are you saying that all signs banning overnight camping in Council owned car parks are not legally binding in all areas of the U.K?

Im aware of what happened in Scotland. But I’m not talking about ‘no camping’ signs in lay-bys etc. I’m talking about where a Council puts up a sign banning overnight camping in one of their official and marked out car parks, where the sign follows the regs. Surely not all of those signs can be ignored and have no legal standing?

My post was sharing some of the blame with newbies, and with those of us who choose to ignore the legal prohibitions.

 

[Fisherman]

Hi Bill - are you saying that all signs banning overnight camping in Council owned car parks are not legally binding in all areas of the U.K?

Im aware of what happened in Scotland. But I’m not talking about ‘no camping’ signs in lay-bys etc. I’m talking about where a Council puts up a sign banning overnight camping in one of their official and marked out car parks, where the sign follows the regs. Surely not all of those signs can be ignored and have no legal standing?

Yes I am, its common knowledge that a TRO is legally required as per the 1984 roads traffic act.

 

[Rolyan57]

Yes I am, its common knowledge that a TRO is legally required as per the 1984 roads traffic act.

So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO? Is that correct and what you’re saying?

I’m genuinely confused. Because as far as I can remember, during months (years) of discussions of these signs, no one on here has ever come forward and stated unequivocally that ALL signs in Council owned car parks throughout the U.K. have no legal standing and all can be ignored.

If that is truly the case then I’m surprised, and also disappointed that it wasn’t made clearer. It was always my understanding (and I know I’m not alone in this) that SOME of the signs, not all of them but some, were legally binding.

My position certainly appears to be supported by various groups, not least the Camper Van Bible https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecampervanbible.co.uk/amp/no-overnight-parking-signs-the-facts

It’s those of us ignoring these lawful, enforceable, signs that have contributed in some smal. way to the problem.

 

[Fisherman]

So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO? Is that correct and what you’re saying?

I’m genuinely confused. Because as far as I can remember, during months (years) of discussions of these signs, no one on here has ever come forward and stated unequivocally that ALL signs in Council owned car parks throughout the U.K. have no legal standing and all can be ignored.

If that is truly the case then I’m surprised, and also disappointed that it wasn’t made clearer. It was always my understanding (and I know I’m not alone in this) that SOME of the signs, not all of them but some, were legally binding.

My position certainly appears to be supported by various groups, not least the Camper Van Bible https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecampervanbible.co.uk/amp/no-overnight-parking-signs-the-facts

It’s those of us ignoring these signs that have contributed in some way to the problem.

Then what’s the point of TROs then.
Also your link confirms what I have stated with regards to public carparks.

“Secondly, there is a distinct difference between a privately-owned car park (this can mean either a private company, national trust, forestry commission or local authority - whoever may be the leaseholder of said space) and the public highway (roads, laybys and pull off areas).


Car parks are generally covered by off-street parking place TRO’s (Traffic Regulation Orders). These set out specific rules for the use of that space only and these orders may have clauses prohibiting sleeping, cooking, eating and may have height or weight restrictions. These signs are legally binding and must be adhered to, IF restrictions AND penalties are clearly displayed on the sign at that location.

The photo displays a legally enforceable sign and a non-enforceable sign to show you the difference.”

These TROs only apply to public carparks.
In private carparks you have no legal right to park without the owners permission. Hence TROs have no place in a private carpark, the landowner can erect whatever signs they wish, as ultimately as I already stated without their permission you have no right to be there.

IMHO barriers in public carparks are a way of bypassing TROs and should not be erected without a temporary or permanent TRO.

 

[Rolyan57]

Then what’s the point of TROs then.
Also your link confirms what I have stated with regards to public carparks.

Secondly, there is a distinct difference between a privately-owned car park (this can mean either a private company, national trust, forestry commission or local authority - whoever may be the leaseholder of said space) and the public highway (roads, laybys and pull off areas).


Car parks are generally covered by off-street parking place TRO’s (Traffic Regulation Orders). These set out specific rules for the use of that space only and these orders may have clauses prohibiting sleeping, cooking, eating and may have height or weight restrictions. These signs are legally binding and must be adhered to, IF restrictions AND penalties are clearly displayed on the sign at that location.

The photo displays a legally enforceable sign and a non-enforceable sign to show you the difference.

These TROs only apply to public carparks.
In private carparks you have no legal right to park without the owners permission. Hence TROs have no place in a private carpark, the landowner can erect whatever signs they wish, as ultimately as I already stated without their permission you have no right to be there.

IMHO barriers are a way of bypassing TROs and should not be erected without a temporary or permanent TRO.

Perhaps we’re saying the same thing, just differently.

I’m talking about those of us who have ignored lawful no overnight camping signs, issued through a TRO, in a Council owned car park. Those that have done that and ignored the lawful signs where they exist have contributed to the problem; as have ignorant newbies and sales driven companies.

Im not talking about the unlawful signs, the private property or height barriers.

 

[Robmac]

Im not 100% sure but don't they have to have the "code or bylaw" attached to be legal.

Yea I think they have to have a TRO number visible somewhere on the sign. I think it can be on the back though?

 

[Fisherman]

Perhaps we’re saying the same thing, just differently.

I’m talking about those of us who have ignored lawful no overnight camping signs, issued through a TRO, in a Council owned car park. Those that have done that and ignored the lawful signs where they exist have contributed to the problem; as have ignorant newbies and sales driven companies.

Im not talking about the unlawful signs, the private property or height barriers.

Rolyan there are no legally binding NO OVERNIGHT PARKING signs in a public carpark unless they are supported by either a temporary or permanent TRO. Also these signs must refer to the TRO, give accurate times when parking is allowed, types of vehicles prohibited ( If applicable), any penalties for breaching the TRO, and other information. I would never breech a TRO, but if needs be and I have no choice I would ignore a no overnight parking sign in a public carpark. Although normally I would go elsewhere.

 

[Rolyan57]

Rolyan there are no legally binding NO OVERNIGHT PARKING signs in a public carpark unless they are supported by either a temporary or permanent TRO. Also these signs must refer to the TRO, give accurate times when parking is allowed, types of vehicles prohibited ( If applicable), any penalties for breaching the TRO, and other information. I would never breech a TRO, but if needs be and I have no choice I would ignore a no overnight parking sign in a public carpark. Although normally I would go elsewhere.

Bill, I know!

I have repeatedly said that I am referring to the lawful signs (the ones supported by a TRO with appropriate details). In my initial post I referred to “lawful signs that followed the regs”. Many of us know people who have ignored these lawful signs, knowing that the enforcement has been lax.

They are the ones I’m referring to, not the illegal signs, not the private car parks and not the height barriers.

 

[Fisherman]

Bill, I know!

I have repeatedly said that I am referring to the lawful signs (the ones supported by a TRO with appropriate details). Many of us know people who have ignored these lawful signs, knowing that the enforcement has been lax.

They are the ones I’m referring to, not the illegal signs, not the private car parks and not the height barriers.

My last post on this Rolyan.

Now this was your initial comment from from post 110

Plus, the regular motorhomers who for many years have taken advantage of lax enforcement. The ones who said “I know the sign says no overnight camping and is legal but I’ve always got away with it”.

When I pointed out that these signs are not legally binding you then asked

So none of the signs banning overnight camping in car parks have a TRO? Is that correct and what you’re saying?

I posted no they don’t and that all no overnight parking signs alone with no other signage are not legally binding and non enforcable.

Sorry but it’s clear to me and everyone else I would have thought that you reckoned that all no overnight parking signs were legal, and backed up by a TRO. Well no TRO is enforceable without correct signage, and merely erecting a sign stating no overnight parking does not meet the criteria set out within the roads traffic act of 1984 which TROs are part of. Hence if any public carpark only has a no overnight parking sign you are within your rights to ignore it.

I hope this clears this matter up for all concerned.

I am off for a coffee now