Uprating the weight of a 'Van with Windows'

[mark61]

Yes, they are a lot cheaper and naturally there will be less intrusion.

I completely understand people buying a used MH and then uprating to the max GVW allowable, I’d do exactly the same if the extra capacity was needed.

But when buying new, no! Especially when buying for an ambulance service.

 

[wildebus]

Yes, they are a lot cheaper and naturally there will be less intrusion.

I completely understand people buying a used MH and then uprating to the max GVW allowable, I’d do exactly the same if the extra capacity was needed.

But when buying new, no! Especially when buying for an ambulance service.

You never know what companies and Public Sector organisatins may do!
VW and Mercedes make vans with windows all the way round - ideal for Minibuses.
However MY Minibus started life as a Panel van with no windows and a bulkhead, converted by minibus.co.uk to provide to a County Council as a school minibus from brand new. Why didn't they just get a Van with the factory windows and just add the seating instead of also cutting all the window apertures and cutting the bulkhead out? got to presume an overall cost saving?
I also had an ex-Motability VW T4 with windows all round. This was converted by Versa (Motability division of Bristol Street Motors) from new, and again it was a conversion from a panel van with no windows and bulkhead that had to be cut out all the way round (welding in, not a few bolts). Have to assume it was a cost thing again.

I can very easily see that the same approach taken with weight ratings, especially as a regional Ambulance Service might want a mix of 'heavy' and 'light' rated vans to accomodate different driver licences and only know the mix post delivery. Could well be cheaper to buy the lighter vans as standard and uprate a few, rather than pay extra for every 'heavy' van and then pay again to downrate some of them.

 

[mark61]

You never know what companies and Public Sector organisatins may do!
VW and Mercedes make vans with windows all the way round - ideal for Minibuses.
However MY Minibus started life as a Panel van with no windows and a bulkhead, converted by minibus.co.uk to provide to a County Council as a school minibus from brand new. Why didn't they just get a Van with the factory windows and just add the seating instead of also cutting all the window apertures and cutting the bulkhead out? got to presume an overall cost saving?
I also had an ex-Motability VW T4 with windows all round. This was converted by Versa (Motability division of Bristol Street Motors) from new, and again it was a conversion from a panel van with no windows and bulkhead that had to be cut out all the way round (welding in, not a few bolts). Have to assume it was a cost thing again.

I can very easily see that the same approach taken with weight ratings, especially as a regional Ambulance Service might want a mix of 'heavy' and 'light' rated vans to accomodate different driver licences and only know the mix post delivery. Could well be cheaper to buy the lighter vans as standard and uprate a few, rather than pay extra for every 'heavy' van and then pay again to downrate some of them.

I see your point completely, and as far as windows etc are concerned, it is probably cheaper to go aftermarket, and of course you get exactly what you want.
But with weights it is a different matter. Surely?
The current Sprinter, obviously available at 3.5 tonnes, next weight up is 3.88 tonnes, I forget how much extra it is but around £1700. That extra £1700 is not just for a paperwork exercise, there are difference in the vehicle. (All could be carried out at anytime, but are they?)
I ordered my van with the extra capacity towing option. They didn't just change the train weight on the VIN plate, there's a handful of stuff done, mine being a 4x4 had some of those included anyway, but a standard Sprinter the option would add rear stabiliser, lower axle diff ratio etc. Perhaps surprisingly, their software is up to knowing some of the stuff is already on your vehicle so you don't pay twice.

I know some vehicles need additional work to upgrade GVW, but in some/many cases it's just paperwork which basically eats into the manufactures safety margins (admittedly, often generous) combining the additional weight of max axle loads to GVW etc.

 

[Wooie1958]

I know some vehicles need additional work to upgrade GVW, but in some/many cases it's just paperwork which basically eats into the manufactures safety margins (admittedly, often generous) combining the additional weight of max axle loads to GVW etc.

The only thing i had to do to my motorhome in order to increase the GVW from 3,850kg to 4,100kg was to change 2 tyres to a higher load rating.

I had already replaced 2 of the original spec 113/111 tyres with 116/114 so all i had to do was to replace the other 2 with 116/114 then i was good to go.

 

[wildebus]

The only thing i had to do to my motorhome in order to increase the GVW from 3,850kg to 4,100kg was to change 2 tyres to a higher load rating.

I had already replaced 2 of the original spec 113/111 tyres with 116/114 so all i had to do was to replace the other 2 with 116/114 then i was good to go.

Yup, the majority of 3.5t vans are only limited to 3.5t GVW so buyable/drivable by the licence-limited users. And this is true of both leisure AND commercial vehicles.
You get some of the big Iveco vans that are usually 4t or more downplated to 3.5t for business users who need volume but not load.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

IMHO it is way beyond the time that the 3.5t limit was raised to 4.0t its basically 35cwt metricised, the capacities of chassis, brakes, tyres and suspension have all been much improved since the limit was put in place, and the driving licence should also be updated to match.

Quite how post B this could be done I don't know but there are financial benefits to doing it.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

As an aside why are we still stuck with cart springs on the rear of vans, coils are much better and easily capable of handling the weight.

 

[wildebus]

As an aside why are we still stuck with cart springs on the rear of vans, coils are much better and easily capable of handling the weight.

Does depend on the van. on the VW T4s, they have coils on the back (and it is a regular job replacing them).
I was investigating a clanking on my small hatchback yesterday and took out a broken piece of coil spring from the front.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Does depend on the van. on the VW T4s, they have coils on the back (and it is a regular job replacing them).
I was investigating a clanking on my small hatchback yesterday and took out a broken piece of coil spring from the front.

That is the downside for manufacturers they have to balance between function & overall weight, we have 2016 fiesta and it's had two springs so far, but they could also replace cart springs with airbags, 40t trucks have them as do buses so weight isn't an issue. I am assuming springs are simpler to make and fit and perhaps cost less and possibly they assume no demand like there is for cars, we should send the designers around our wonderful roads in a van an hour or so of rattling pans, cutlery and crockery might make them think as it is a big market for them.

 

[Nabsim]

As an aside, what was done to your Ambulance to get it from 3500 to 4000kg? I had thought there was an problem with Sprinters (and so Crafters maybe?) to get that weight rating on the single wheel rear axle? It could be on the first Generation (T1N) Sprinter (and VW LT) only? I recall on the US Sprinter Forum discussions about "Super Sprinter" wheels to get extra weight capacity. My 4600kg van was a Dually LT so didn't have any payload issues at all (only problem with weight was not enough in the back during conversion so very bouncy).

mine is a T1n Sprinter 316 chassis cab. Conversion to coachbuilt originally weighed in a 3000kgs and was plated at 3850kgs. Previous owner uprated it through SVTech to 4000kgs which I believe is as far as you can go with the 15” single wheels I have on mine.
Mine is full MB chassis apart from a small add on bit at the back so I would think any T1n can be uprated to 4000Kgs

 

[campingfun]

on the V5C, HGV is just a tax category, not a vehicle type. It is an unfortunate description which I know some folk do take offence at when they have maybe spent £150,000 on a Morelo Gin Palace and they see on the V5C they are driving an "HGV"

The vehicle type (think that is the category) is the important one for what you have .... Van/Windows, Motor Caravan, etc. The vehicle prior to my 4.6t jobby was an "MPV" and I never bothered to change it after my conversion, as an "MPV" is better on the road than a "Motor Caravan" (there are a couple of silly potential gotchas with a "Motor Caravan" regarding speed limits when used in certain ways) but I arranged with the insurance company that it was still an Motor Caravan in terms of use and value.

 

[campingfun]

Wildebus' comment "there are a couple of silly potential gotchas with a "Motor Caravan" regarding speed limits when used in certain ways" is a bit concerning.
I'd appreciate more information on this please.

 

[wildebus]

Wildebus' comment "there are a couple of silly potential gotchas with a "Motor Caravan" regarding speed limits when used in certain ways" is a bit concerning.
I'd appreciate more information on this please.

Taking a van-based vehicle under 3.05t ULW (Unladen Weight), when it is a VAN, it is limited to commercial van speeds (50 instead of 60 on single-carriageway, 60 instead of 70 on dual), but when a MOTOR CARAVAN it is allowed normal car speeds.
However, the allowed speed is not down to what the vehicle says on the V5C in fact, but the use of the vehicle at the time. It is possible (unlikely but still possible) that you could be prosecuted for driving at acceptable car speeds in your Motorhome if you are not using your motorhome AS a motorhome, but say going to a car boot sale to sell stuff for example, or going to an event to compete in something where there is a prize.
There is no similar problem in a car as they are allowed car speeds whether used for personal use or for financial gain.

The chance of it happening is likely remote but you could have some zealous policeman who wants to exercise some obscure rule.....

And in fact, this rule has been used in reverse successfully to get people OFF a speeding ticket where they have a Campervan, but it is still a van on the V5C and not a Motor Caravan, and they have been done for speeding. A successful defence (and one that a representative from the DLVA has documented) is that because the vehicle was being used as a Motor Caravan, it follows the speed limit rules of that vehicle type irrespective of what the V5C vehicle type is.
It seems to be a quirk of British Law in motoring that nothing is what is says!

 

[Pudsey Bear]

There are all kinds of anomalies in motoring law, I used to tow a trailer, it was a small curtain-sided trailer behind a LT 35 curtain sider, and one of my regular jobs was to take self-adhesive labels down to a company in Dover from Leeds, so on tachograph all the way down, but once tipped I had the trailer forklifted into the back of the LT35 so I could legally drive back home, I got stopped twice over a 3 year period and the police ticketed me as they said I should still be on tacho as I set off on tacho, but in court, they threw it out as in the "guide" (which is all you can read) there is no such rule so I couldn't be breaking it, this was in the 90s, it may be different now, if they had weighed me I may have got a fine, I never weighed it as I didn't want to know but I think it might have been close on a wet day.

 

[wildebus]

There are all kinds of anomalies in motoring law, I used to tow a trailer, it was a small curtain-sided trailer behind a LT 35 curtain sider, and one of my regular jobs was to take self-adhesive labels down to a company in Dover from Leeds, so on tachograph all the way down, but once tipped I had the trailer forklifted into the back of the LT35 so I could legally drive back home, I got stopped twice over a 3 year period and the police ticketed me as they said I should still be on tacho as I set off on tacho, but in court, they threw it out as in the "guide" (which is all you can read) there is no such rule so I couldn't be breaking it, this was in the 90s, it may be different now, if they had weighed me I may have got a fine, I never weighed it as I didn't want to know but I think it might have been close on a wet day.

And weights are a great thing as well ... Motor Caravan speed limits determined by if the ULW is under 3.05t or not. Trouble is the ULW is not recorded anywhere. The GVW is on the V5C, but not the ULW. the MIRO weight for a coachbuilt and factory conversion might be, but that is not quite the same as the ULW.
So who is to say that a vehicle would be over 3.05t ULW and so breaking its speed limit? How can you have a rule that is based on info that is not recorded officialy or legally anywhere?
For my last conversion, that of a 4.6t van, I specifically went to a weighbridge as soon as I got the revised V5C back after reclassifying as a MOTOR CARAVAN, and got a certified certificate to show the weight (2.85t I think it was?) to show that despite the GVW being 4.6t, the ULW was under 3.05t and so I was entitled to drive this rather heavy van (once loaded with all the usual camping gear, etc) at car speeds - not that I tended to do so, but just to preempt any attempt to nab me for doing so. The thought being if it came down to it, I could show the ULW was under 3.05t and the prosecution had nothing to say it was over.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

And!! at what point do you weigh for the ULW anyway, before you fit the body? before you fit out the body? after all construction but before putting personal items in, a minefield.

 

[wildebus]

And!! at what point do you weigh for the ULW anyway, before you fit the body? before you fit out the body? after all construction but before putting personal items in, a minefield.

For me, I took it after it was reregistered - so was recognised as a Motor Caravan, and was usable as such - so had all the DVLA requirements inside, including a Leisure battery plus a Solar panel as well (there are definitions of ULW, it is just the ULW is never actually recorded)
The fact I then added more Solar, more Batteries, etc doesn't matter - those extra ones were not a requirement for it to be a Motor Caravan. That was my thinking anyway

 

[Drover]

Ambulances are owned by the crown.they have no tax or insurance... They are backed by the queen.
At least they were when I broke a door catch on one trying to pass it when parked....i got a heap of paperwork basically asking me to pay for the catch...which I did.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

BT are self insuring too, as are a lot of huge companies.

 

[stirlingb]

I have a 31 yr old B644 hymer. According to original manufacturers literature that is still in vehicle it can only be the Fiat 2500TD 3500gvw version (nothing else of the variants fits the build). The plate in the engine compartment says 3100kg gvw (which doesn’t exist for this build !!) and the V5 says 3400kg gvw. Tearing my hair out trying to get the three weight anomaly sorted out. Only answer you can get from dvla or dvsa or Hymer is ‘nothing to do with us guv’. I have been told I need to pay to get an uprated conversion done but from what I can see it is already 3500kg with an incorrectly labelled 3100kg plate. You wouldn’t have thought it was that difficult to get what seems to be an obvious plating error corrected