Uprating the weight of a 'Van with Windows'

[Thistle]

I have a 31 yr old B644 hymer. According to original manufacturers literature that is still in vehicle it can only be the Fiat 2500TD 3500gvw version (nothing else of the variants fits the build). The plate in the engine compartment says 3100kg gvw (which doesn’t exist for this build !!) and the V5 says 3400kg gvw. Tearing my hair out trying to get the three weight anomaly sorted out. Only answer you can get from dvla or dvsa or Hymer is ‘nothing to do with us guv’. I have been told I need to pay to get an uprated conversion done but from what I can see it is already 3500kg with an incorrectly labelled 3100kg plate. You wouldn’t have thought it was that difficult to get what seems to be an obvious plating error corrected

From a purely paperwork and what might happen if you are stopped and weighed perspective the V5 is the source of truth irrespective of whether your van can actually cope with that weight. So you are perfectly entitled to get a suitable replacement vin sticker made up to reflect the revenue weight on the V5

The tricky bit for you and hence the bit that will probably cost money is verifying what the vehicle weight can be with or without further modifications and then determining the individual axle weights for the other sections of the sticker, SVtech actually left the Gross Train weight blank on mine so I guess that one is not mandatory.

 

[Thistle]

A quick note on Ambulance conversions.
Always worth remembering the tax payer is paying so common sense won’t necessarily apply!

So in addition to why on earth the converters buy in vehicles on inadequate weight plates and the uprate them:

A typical Sevels A&E Ambulance is around £90,000 on the road today
A typical modular Ambulance like my Sprinter can easily be double or treble that depending on spec
I think mine was above the £200,000 mark in 2010.

The price includes all the equipment and probably extended warranty/support on whatever the converters install e.g the electrics and cabinetry etc which are often extensive.

The price often includes an Eberspacher AC unit in the saloon plumbed into the cab system and sharing the same compressor

A good example of converter weirdness and added tax payer expense is they will often buy vehicles without the oem factory fit AC and then fit a full replacement Eberspacher system instead.

This system functionally is often inferior in every way to oem the install is massively labour intensive often requiring dash removal so someone is paying for it!

The price doesn’t usually include vehicle maintenance which is usually done in house, my sprinter was getting oil changes approx every 10 weeks etc.

One popular misconception is that Ambulances are well insulated well I know from working on loads of them that is mostly incorrect, it’s a myth perpetuated in the community and encouraged by the back street traders that sell them to gullible customers

 

[Pudsey Bear]

From a purely paperwork perspective the V5 is the source of truth irrespective of whether your van can actually cope with that weight. So you are perfectly entitled to get a suitable replacement vin sticker made up to reflect the revenue weight on the V5

The tricky bit for you and hence the bit that will probably cost money is verifying what the vehicle weight can be with or without further modifications and then determining the individual axle weights for the other sections of the sticker, SVtech actually left the Gross Train weight blank on mine so I guess that’s not mandatory.

Isn't the GTW devised from the GVW + the allowance for that weight, what you can tow is also governed by the type of trailer, max usually being 2t for a 4 wheel braked trailer behind a 3.5.t vehicle, 4x4s can tow more.

 

[wildebus]

From a purely paperwork perspective the V5 is the source of truth irrespective of whether your van can actually cope with that weight. So you are perfectly entitled to get a suitable replacement vin sticker made up to reflect the revenue weight on the V5

The tricky bit for you and hence the bit that will probably cost money is verifying what the vehicle weight can be with or without further modifications and then determining the individual axle weights for the other sections of the sticker, SVtech actually left the Gross Train weight blank on mine so I guess that’s not mandatory.

I think if there is no GTW specified, it usually means the chassis is not certified to tow. Not all vehicles, and certainly not all Vans have a towing ability as standard.
If on a reclassification that is not specified it sounds like you can no longer legally tow anything?


My MH VIN was 3500 GVW and 6000 GTW and there was no Autotrail Manufacturer plate.
SVTech were not sure what they thought the Towing limit should be so they suggested 1000, making GVW of 3850 and a GTW or 4850 on the plate sent - less then half the original limit!
I won't deny I was not that happy with that as it was a massive drop and meant I could potentially not tow a car (you never know!) and I had to do some running around checking with Autotrail directly (something SVTech should really have done I think) and got a revised Plate from SVTech of 3850 GVW with GTW back to 6000 - A reduction of towing limit of 350Kg, matching the increase of 350Kg on the GVW, which seems right to me.

 

[Drover]

Good o'l UK government and cut backs..
Get rid of most department of transport sites and give the job to a small number of independent guys... some have no idea...and no checks are done to see if work is carried out...

If the chassis rail behind the rear axle have been altered from original design the builder will remove the towing capacity...

 

[Thistle]

I think if there is no GTW specified, it usually means the chassis is not certified to tow. Not all vehicles, and certainly not all Vans have a towing ability as standard.

Ah that’s a really good point well spotted thanks, I hadn’t thought they may have intentionally left that blank so it technically couldn’t tow.

The van as converted had an internal patient lift which might have prevented a tow bar being fitted anyway.
The ramp certainly would have fouled a ball

However soon after starting the build I fitted a tow bar which I had used as a convenient step.
I took it off a while ago as it weighs 40kg and made getting the spare wheel out very difficult.

I do (did) intend to tow with the van eventually so yes I agree with you the GTW ought to say something e.g. be standard minus the uprated weight so will add that to the stuff to do list whilst getting this all sorted.

 

[wildebus]

I had an external Wheelchair lift on my LW LT Minibus - I don't know how much it weighed exactly, but I think it was close to 300Kg. Only way to lose it was take the weight with jacks, so could undo some bolts and grind away other supports, lower the jacks and drive away. Then disassemble into separate liftable parts to take to scrappers. Removing this allowed me to fit a standard Tow Bar (and on the LT and Sprinter Mk1 vans, it is so simple to do it was a joy compared to removing the lift )
Something that may have been of interest to you ... this lift took all the area where the spare wheel would have normally been, so an underslung carrier was fitted between the sliding door and rear wheel which the spare was mounted into - and as far as access to under-vehicle spare wheel goes, that is the best I have ever come across. Maybe something to consider to have Spare Wheel access AND Towbar?

 

[Geek]

The body type is what it looks like. It is not what it is used for. What it is used for defines things like tacho rules and speed limits.
I don't understand the logic behind the SVTech argument, especially as it is already over 3.5T but not understanding is not the same as saying they're wrong

 

[Geek]

It can not be listed as hgv as it cant carry goods of burden.

What do you mean by "can't carry goods of burden"? Firstly, the classification does not affect the ability of the vehicle to carry a load.
Secondly, it's not a matter of carrying stuff: it's a matter of why you are carrying the stuff. You can carry what you like in a motor caravan as long as it's ancillary to using it as a motor caravan. So you could carry sacks of spuds to eat, but not sacks of spuds to sell.
My motorhome is body type MOTOR CARAVAN and taxation class PHGV and that's how it should be.
A previous owner used it to take mobility scooters to shows, in the boot and on a trailer, I understand. I suspect that's why he sold it: his use was unlawful. He presumably got himself one that was under 3.5 tons.

 

[Geek]

And weights are a great thing as well ... Motor Caravan speed limits determined by if the ULW is under 3.05t or not. Trouble is the ULW is not recorded anywhere. The GVW is on the V5C, but not the ULW. the MIRO weight for a coachbuilt and factory conversion might be, but that is not quite the same as the ULW.
So who is to say that a vehicle would be over 3.05t ULW and so breaking its speed limit? How can you have a rule that is based on info that is not recorded officialy or legally anywhere?
For my last conversion, that of a 4.6t van, I specifically went to a weighbridge as soon as I got the revised V5C back after reclassifying as a MOTOR CARAVAN, and got a certified certificate to show the weight (2.85t I think it was?) to show that despite the GVW being 4.6t, the ULW was under 3.05t and so I was entitled to drive this rather heavy van (once loaded with all the usual camping gear, etc) at car speeds - not that I tended to do so, but just to preempt any attempt to nab me for doing so. The thought being if it came down to it, I could show the ULW was under 3.05t and the prosecution had nothing to say it was over.

A smart move to get it weighed empty. However, it is for the prosecution to prove the ULW is over 3.05, not for you to prove it isn't.
I really can't see how they could possibly do that.
There is no maker's published figure, no way to take out all the habitation stuff to get it weighed, even if they could be bothered to try.

 

[Geek]

... revised Plate from SVTech of 3850 GVW with GTW back to 6000 - A reduction of towing limit of 350Kg, matching the increase of 350Kg on the GVW, which seems right to me.

When my GVW was uprated from 4600 to 4900 (not by SVTech) the GTW stayed the same at 6600. That seems sensible enough to me.
I can't see why increasing the GVW should increase the GTW but I also can't see why it should reduce it.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Maybe they just didn't change the GTW but I'd guess if you wanted to have it changed it'd go up pro rata to 6900kg

 

[wildebus]

When my GVW was uprated from 4600 to 4900 (not by SVTech) the GTW stayed the same at 6600. That seems sensible enough to me.
I can't see why increasing the GVW should increase the GTW but I also can't see why it should reduce it.

I think the thing for SVTech is that usually custom-bodied Motorhomes have another VIN Plate from the manufacturer with alternative info, but mine didn't.
And ..... MY van was registered in 2008 and the 2008 model had a lower Towing limit than the base Fiat chassis cab ... So I am assuming SVTech were thinking it was missing the revised Autotrail VIN?
However .... my 2008 Van was actually a 2007 model and the 2007 Model had the same towing limit as the Fiat chassis cab (for some reason, the towing limit more than halved between the two model years, even though both year's base vehicles were Ducato X250 models)

 

[Drover]

What do you mean by "can't carry goods of burden"? Firstly, the classification does not affect the ability of the vehicle to carry a load.
Secondly, it's not a matter of carrying stuff: it's a matter of why you are carrying the stuff. You can carry what you like in a motor caravan as long as it's ancillary to using it as a motor caravan. So you could carry sacks of spuds to eat, but not sacks of spuds to sell.
My motorhome is body type MOTOR CARAVAN and taxation class PHGV and that's how it should be.
A previous owner used it to take mobility scooters to shows, in the boot and on a trailer, I understand. I suspect that's why he sold it: his use was unlawful. He presumably got himself one that was under 3.5 tons.

Under construction and use 1986 an ambulance can not carry goods.

motor ambulance

a motor vehicle which is specially designed and constructed (and not merely adapted) for carrying, as equipment permanently fixed to the vehicle, equipment used for medical, dental, or other health purposes and is used primarily for the carriage of persons suffering from illness, injury or disability

 

[wildebus]

A smart move to get it weighed empty. However, it is for the prosecution to prove the ULW is over 3.05, not for you to prove it isn't.
I really can't see how they could possibly do that.
There is no maker's published figure, no way to take out all the habitation stuff to get it weighed, even if they could be bothered to try.

Yup. This is why I got it weighed... To pre-empt even being a consideration of prosecution.

 

[Geek]

Under construction and use 1986 an ambulance can not carry goods.

motor ambulance

a motor vehicle which is specially designed and constructed (and not merely adapted) for carrying, as equipment permanently fixed to the vehicle, equipment used for medical, dental, or other health purposes and is used primarily for the carriage of persons suffering from illness, injury or disability

So if you use it as a motorhome or to carry goods, it is not an ambulance any more

 

[Drover]

So if you use it as a motorhome or to carry goods, it is not an ambulance any more

Not going to argue about this as it will be written in the vc5....
Nowt to do with what you call it.

 

[Geek]

If your use changes the class, the V5 should be updated.

 

[MaryF]

This could get interesting or blooming annoying depending on how things go, I have a previously uprated vehicle with a v5/plated weight discrepancy.

My van, a former Ambulance was uprated via SVtech twice first to 3850 and then a few weeks later to 4000kg.
A previous owner (either the original van converter or the Ambulance service) stuck the new SVtech provided 4000kg weight plate sticker on the van but did not inform DVLA so its still 3850kg on the V5.

Simple to sort out I thought, call SVtech gets copies of the exact same paperwork they have already produced and hopefully still on file (even if there's a small fee for them), and send everything off to DVLA.

Nope according to Steve at SVtech it now has to be a 'Motor Caravan on the V5 first.

He said:
"it needs changing to 'Motor Caravan' or it'll be listed as Panel van HGV with it being over 3500 kg, we then have
to treat it as a commercial vehicle with speed limiter restrictions and HGV plating and testing."

If that is correct then I hope my van ends up being one of the very few the DVLA accepts as a 'motor Caravan rather than the usual 'Van with Windows'
but first I will have to waste time buying and getting silly 'Motor Caravan' style graphics plastered all over it.................

I would like to take advantage of the potential extra payload so I can see this taking a few weeks if not months to sort out!

Hi, I uprated my motorhome from 3500kg to 3850kg because it saves me £100/yr on road tax. However if you are nearly or over 70yrs old you do need to have a medical & eye test (not free) every 3yrs to keep your C1 rating on your license. After sending my up plated docs to the DVLA I received a new V5 and your man is correct, it should be Motor Caravan.

 

[Thistle]

Glad to report it was total BS from Steve at SVtech, I have no idea what his game was but thankful he was 100% wrong!
There is no problem uprating a van with windows and it absolutely did not need to be a motor caravan on the V5 first.

Today I received a new V5.

Everything I applied for has been carried out:
Revenue weight - increase from 3850 to 4230kg.
Taxation class - Ambulance to PHGV
Body type - Ambulance to Van with Windows
Number of seats reduced from 9 to 3

This has taken less than three weeks to come through!

I used the services of Dee Thorne Van Weight Engineering for the uprating paperwork
Excellent prompt service unlike the piss poor totally useless service I got from SVTECH and he was far cheaper than SVTECH as well.