Uprating the weight of a 'Van with Windows'

[Thistle]

This could get interesting or blooming annoying depending on how things go, I have a previously uprated vehicle with a v5/plated weight discrepancy.

My van, a former Ambulance was uprated via SVtech twice first to 3850 and then a few weeks later to 4000kg.
A previous owner (either the original van converter or the Ambulance service) stuck the new SVtech provided 4000kg weight plate sticker on the van but did not inform DVLA so its still 3850kg on the V5.

Simple to sort out I thought, call SVtech gets copies of the exact same paperwork they have already produced and hopefully still on file (even if there's a small fee for them), and send everything off to DVLA.

Nope according to Steve at SVtech it now has to be a 'Motor Caravan on the V5 first.

He said:
"it needs changing to 'Motor Caravan' or it'll be listed as Panel van HGV with it being over 3500 kg, we then have
to treat it as a commercial vehicle with speed limiter restrictions and HGV plating and testing."

If that is correct then I hope my van ends up being one of the very few the DVLA accepts as a 'motor Caravan rather than the usual 'Van with Windows'
but first I will have to waste time buying and getting silly 'Motor Caravan' style graphics plastered all over it.................

I would like to take advantage of the potential extra payload so I can see this taking a few weeks if not months to sort out!

 

[mistericeman]

This could get interesting or blooming annoying depending on how things go, I have a previously uprated vehicle with a v5/plated weight discrepancy.

My van, a former Ambulance was uprated via SVtech twice first to 3850 and then a few weeks later to 4000kg.
A previous owner (either the original van converter or the Ambulance service) stuck the new SVtech provided 4000kg weight plate sticker on the van but did not inform DVLA so its still 3850kg on the V5.

Simple to sort out I thought, call SVtech gets copies of the exact same paperwork they have already produced and hopefully still on file (even if there's a small fee for them), and send everything off to DVLA.

Nope according to Steve at SVtech it now has to be a 'Motor Caravan on the V5 first.

He said:
"it needs changing to 'Motor Caravan' or it'll be listed as Panel van HGV with it being over 3500 kg, we then have
to treat it as a commercial vehicle with speed limiter restrictions and HGV plating and testing."

If that is correct then I hope my van ends up being one of the very few the DVLA accepts as a 'motor Caravan rather than the usual 'Van with Windows'
but first I will have to waste time buying and getting silly 'Motor Caravan' style graphics plastered all over it.................

I would like to take advantage of the potential extra payload so I can see this taking a few weeks if not months to sort out!

Add a aftermarket high top to the list as well as the graphics etc...

As at the moment it seems everything ends up as a van with windows without ticking every single box on the dvlas sheet (including high tops)

UNLESS you are a professional converting company.

 

[Nabsim]

The ones I have seen getting motor caravan tickets recently seem to be those fitted with ‘caravan’ style windows rather than the flush fit van windows. I think more are getting reclassified since the BBC(?) highlighted it as an issue. Good luck

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I'd fit the graphics with double sided tape take the pictures then remove them if you don't like them, no rules about changing the appearance.

 

[Thistle]

Guys, your missing the point of my post.
What I wanted to highlight is the guy at SVtech (whose company pretty much has the monopoly) says a van with windows requires him treating it differently i.e. as a commercial vehicle, then if that is not BS, uprating is going to become a lot more complex than it was previously, plus has the potential other consequences described above as well.

So hoping someone here has done it already and can confirm if he is right or he is wrong.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I'd be inclined to either accept what SV tech is saying as they are pretty much on the ball as it's their job to know, maybe ask to speak to someone else there for confirmation or ring DVLA, good luck with that though.

Another thought for myself would be do I actually need the extra payload in the first place, obviously I have no clue as to what you need t carry.

 

[1 Cup]

So 3.8 is not hgv ? But 4 is ? As the log book has already been changed to 3.800 kg. By that business !

Why is that ?
It is harder to change to mc 2022 , but a chap on here used his MP. ? Yep months . What about 3.999 kgs ?.

 

[mark61]

I think SV Tech are right, but I'd also be asking around.

Why would an ambulance service buy a 3.5 tonne and update it, why not just buy the right vehicle in the first place.

 

[wildebus]

Guys, your missing the point of my post.
What I wanted to highlight is the guy at SVtech (whose company pretty much has the monopoly) says a van with windows requires him treating it differently i.e. as a commercial vehicle, then if that is not BS, uprating is going to become a lot more complex than it was previously, plus has the potential other consequences described above as well.

So hoping someone here has done it already and can confirm if he is right or he is wrong.

Steve at SVtech knows his stuff and I spoke to him a few times when sorting out an update on on Autotrail.
However .... I do not think he is quite correct on this one from what you say he is saying.....

A van with windows can still be a PHGV - Private HGV. A private HGV which is not used for any business purpose is different from a commercial van in a number of ways, including no need for Tacho, operators licence and also possibly Speed Limiter (depending on the speed limiter, you may well be able to set that to whatever you want virtually. I changed mine from 60 to 90. The fact it was still limited was then totally irrelevant).

Now changing from 3850 to 4000kg will not make any changes to any existing requirements. The cutoff point is 3500kg. So you vehicle should already have a tax category of PHGV. Also you say it was upgraded TO 3850 as part of the conversion process from Ambulance to Campervan? What is the current description of the vehicle? Is it still "Ambulance" (or whatever code an ambulance uses)?
It kind of sounds like when it got uprated, the V5 info may not have been updated correctly if it is not either a "Motor Caravan" or a "Van/Side Windows" as they are the only two that would be appropriate for a converted Ambulance and no longer used as an Ambulance.



Ok. And now down to the point you think is being missed.... A Van with windows over 3.5t would need an HGV Plate UNLESS two things are true:
1) You are in Great Britain (and so NOT in Northern Ireland)
2) The vehicle is used as a proper Motor Caravan (i.e. Motorhome/caravan). Being USED as a Motor Caravan is NOT the same as being registered as a Motor Caravan. They are different things.
When you go to get a MOT test, the vehicle is tested as presented, so if you take a 4t van for an MOT and it has side windows, a bed, a fitted cooker, secured table, etc, the tester will test it as a Motor Caravan and what it says on the V5C or DVLA database is irrelevant as he doesn't look. If you took your re-registered 4t "Motor Caravan" for an MOT and you had happened to have stripped out the interior as you were revamping it, the MOT tester would turn you away and tell you you need a VOSA test as it is an HGV and no longer a Motor Caravan as you have presented it.


Now I got into a similar situation that you are getting worked up about with my last conversion... A 4.6t Minibus. It was recorded as 4600kg on the V5C, but also as a PLG and not an PHGV. Why I have no idea (and someone I know bought their 3.5t Minibus from the same source and theirs was a PHGV even though 3500KG. So mistakes would seem to be not uncommon).
I decided whilst doing the conversion to get it changed from PLG to PHGV (save £100 in tax) so sent off the amended V5C and in the process the vehicle changed from a Minibus to a "Van/Side Windows" still with a weight of 4600KG
I didn't pick up on the consequences of this until it was time get a new MOT (upto this point the previous owners had been getting either PSV or MOT tests with no problem, presumably as it was a minibus and down as a PLG?), but on speaking to DVSA I was told it needed an HGV Test (this is the first >3500KG vehicle I have had so I trusted what I was told). When I went to the VOSA test station I was told they could not test it as it had no HGV Plate (makes sense), but on talking to the VOSA tester (who happened previously to be a ministry Motor Caravan inspector.. one of those who would agree or not if something met the spec), I found out that it was a situation as earlier described .... Present as a Motor Caravan irrespective of V5C and you get a Class 4 MOT irrespective of weight. He looked inside and said "I would test this as a Motor Caravan" - my conversion was virtually complete and looked done enough to pass the check test.
Later that day I took my 4600KG PHGV "Van with Side Windows" to a local garage and asked them if they would test as a Motor Caravan. Guy slid open the door, looked inside and said yes. Day or so later I had a new 12 Month MOT.
A few months later I re-registered it as a Motor Caravan (this was before DVLA started playing silly buggers), but for the purposes of MOTs, that is irrelevant.
Addition:. And just to add, the guy from DVSA really was a total idiot. He was, for someone on a helpline, the most unhelpful person you could imagine. Apart from which his info was patently incorrect.


Now if you are remain in a quandary, you could always just let sleeping does lie and leave it at 3850 and take the easy option but it makes no difference to anything in terms of testing requirements if it is 3850 or 4000.

 

[Drover]

It can not be listed as hgv as it cant carry goods of burden.
Is it still an ambulance on vc5.
So I started then wildebus post popped up , it's the same so I've stopped.
Edit .?
You could phone Dee at vanweightengineering and see what they say. Though that will cost around £180 for them to sort

 

[wildebus]

It can not be listed as hgv as it cant carry goods of burden.
Is it still an ambulance on vc5.
So I started then wildebus post popped up , it's the same so I've stopped.
Edit .?
You could phone Dee at vanweightengineering and see what they say. Though that will cost around £180 for them to sort

on the V5C, HGV is just a tax category, not a vehicle type. It is an unfortunate description which I know some folk do take offence at when they have maybe spent £150,000 on a Morelo Gin Palace and they see on the V5C they are driving an "HGV"

The vehicle type (think that is the category) is the important one for what you have .... Van/Windows, Motor Caravan, etc. The vehicle prior to my 4.6t jobby was an "MPV" and I never bothered to change it after my conversion, as an "MPV" is better on the road than a "Motor Caravan" (there are a couple of silly potential gotchas with a "Motor Caravan" regarding speed limits when used in certain ways) but I arranged with the insurance company that it was still an Motor Caravan in terms of use and value.

 

[Drover]

Wildebus, things changed jan this year though dvla say it's not definitive.. the gin palace would be phgv ( maybe )
It's on form V355/1
Supposed to simplify things but nothings simple with our government

 

[Pudsey Bear]

In my experience, the insurance broker has never asked what it says on the V5, I ask to insure a motorhome and it's motorhome insurance I get.

 

[Wooie1958]

The V5C for my 4,100kg coachbuilt motorhome shows Body Type as MOTOR CARAVAN and the Taxation class as Private HGV.

I uprated it from 3,850kg to 4,100kg through Sv Tech who are only 10 minutes from my house so i went down to them with the motohome an V5C and Steve ( who really knows his stuff ) came out got all the necessary off it then went back inside and uprated it whilst i had a brew and talking to the very pretty young receptionist.

He printed off a new VIN plate sticker and it`s gone on the drivers side wheel arch inside the door, there is no room on the slam panel because it already has a Peugeot VIN plate and the ALKO VIN plate in place.

 

[wildebus]

Wildebus, things changed jan this year though dvla say it's not definitive.. the gin palace would be phgv ( maybe )
It's on form V355/1
Supposed to simplify things but nothings simple with our government

what changed? the Gin Palace was PHGV and will still be PHGV.

 

[Drover]

what changed? the Gin Palace was PHGV and will still be PHGV.

Same Sahara sand falls on them as falls on us, dread to think how long it took to clean as it took me 2 days for our 7.5 mtr chausson

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I think comparing self builds with conversions goes down the wrong path as they are not the same although at MOT time they could be, but the V5 is a whole different problem as DVLA can and do make mistakes.

 

[Thistle]

Gents thanks for the input, yes I have contacted Dee at Van Weight Engineering he thinks Steve is mistaken because as @wildebus said a PHGV 'van with windows' is not necessarily a commercial vehicle so should not need the things Steve has inferred it might.

At the moment the taxation class and body type on the V5 are both Ambulance, it is a simple enough albeit long winded process to change them to PHGV and Van with Window, I have done it twice before.

The only reason I hadn't sent it all off already is because I genuinely expected sorting out the weight discrepancy to be easier with V5 as is.

This will all pan out one way or the other.
I would prefer to sort out this discrepancy with the weight first as the extra payload will be useful in the not too distant future.

For example just bolting my Towbar back on for my motorbike trailer (and allowing for my particular PCT towbars max nose load of 120KG) could take up to another 160KG of my payload.

However if I have to prat about getting the taxation class and body type changed first, then other than it can take weeks (sometimes months) to do, then its not a problem.

FYI
last time I did that exercise was back in March 2019, then it took DVLA 6 weeks to send my V5 back as PHGV.
In more recent times DVLA have been taking a lot longer, and worse, they now seem to have a regular habit of losing peoples applications!

 

[Thistle]

I think SV Tech are right, but I'd also be asking around.

Why would an ambulance service buy a 3.5 tonne and update it, why not just buy the right vehicle in the first place.

Mine originally was a bog standard LWB 3500kg VW Crafter.

Maybe 3500kg vans are cheaper to buy than the heavier dual rear wheeled versions
Or perhaps they can get more stuff in single rear wheeled vans because they don't have the extra intrusion of the double wheel arch.

Anyway it's the norm to use four wheeled panel vans for many ambulance variants, and many are plated at over 3500Kg the high top A&E Fiats are all plated at 4000kg.

PTS Ambulances (glorified minibuses), are usually plated somewhere between 3500 and 4000.

Proper Ambulances i.e. the box bodied modular variants like my other van, are built on dually chassis cabs.
E.g. my Sprinter is plated at 5000kg. and when I converted it from an Ambulance to a Motor Caravan it came in at 3960kg wet.
I reckon on the road we are around 44-4500kg

 

[wildebus]

Something I would suggest you do and from my own experience would do in your place .... get a fresh 12 Month MOT just before you send anything off that might complicate a testing situation to give yourself as much time as possible to sort mistakes out.
I was quite lucky in that by the time a new MOT was imminent for my 4.6t van, althougg not complete, I had done enough of the conversion that it could pass muster as a Motor Caravan (day before I took it in for MOT after VOSA knocked me back, I cut a holefor the Induction Hob and dropped in it, and threw a duvet over the bed frame), but if I was less advanced in the process, I'd be stuck with a vehicle that had no MOT and was unMOTable vehicle until conversion done.

Are Ambulances Zero-Rated for Road Tax? Same as a Mobility vehicle? If so, I would suggest you need to watch for evasion (seriously) and maybe if not paying road tax, address that to avoid unwelcome attention.


As an aside, what was done to your Ambulance to get it from 3500 to 4000kg? I had thought there was an problem with Sprinters (and so Crafters maybe?) to get that weight rating on the single wheel rear axle? It could be on the first Generation (T1N) Sprinter (and VW LT) only? I recall on the US Sprinter Forum discussions about "Super Sprinter" wheels to get extra weight capacity. My 4600kg van was a Dually LT so didn't have any payload issues at all (only problem with weight was not enough in the back during conversion so very bouncy).