The demise of Lpg stations
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jagmanx
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Up to NOW I agree 100% and I have the same ...But Ahead the flexibility is key
Use the refillable until it is MT
Swat to swappable.
Fill up re-fillable asap unless you are in France or Spain where the swappables are cheap !
Depend so much on where you travel !
Use the refillable until it is MT
Swat to swappable.
Fill up re-fillable asap unless you are in France or Spain where the swappables are cheap !
Depend so much on where you travel !
molly 2
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Good point is it acceptable to use a BBQ to connect a bottle with regulator to BBQ outlet ?
molly 2
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I had 1.4 toyota D4D . and friend had factory fit LPG Focus .We both agreed my Toyota Was the the best . up to 70 mpg
phillybarbour
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LPG will be around for a long time yet but you may need to look at specialist suppliers often on industrial estates. Modern apps help the search.
runnach
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Technically it isn’t considered good practice risk of unseating one way seals that in turn can lead to leaks a lot depends on how it is plumbed ,,,but the simple answer to the simple question is it isn’t recommended
Sharpie
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Gaslow make a connection that lets you plug a bottle into the fill point for this purpose.
This thing: https://www.gaslowdirect.com/Gaslow-Reserve-Cylinder-Connection-Hose
This would be the correct way to do it. It's quite neat because gas from the external cylinder will only flow if the pressure inside the refillable is less than that of the external one i.e. it is empty. Or conversely if the refillable had been filled with a butane/propane mix (typical abroad) but due to cold weather the propane had vaporised first leaving unusable liquid butane behind (has happened to me in Spain, level gauge indicating plenty left, but actually unusable), connecting an external propane cylinder would save the day.
AFAIK you don't need an internal gas locker to transport swappable cylinders, you can just chuck them in the back, then plug them in outside when stationary. Or swap them around with the ones in a gas locker. Otherwise how would anyone transport one ? There may be some limitation on how much you can carry, Eurotunnel for example are quite specific about this, but it's quite a lot.
It should work for those with underslung tanks as well.
By the way, underslung tank users can/do suffer the same cold weather problems with continental autogas, the butane content won't gasify leaving maybe 30% butane useless in the tank. This is compounded every time you re-fill there is less capacity to re fill, then more butane accumulates, and so on until basically you have a tank full of butane. You have distilled off the propane, leaving the useless butane behind. Which won't gasify until you have much warmer weather. By cold I only mean say 5-10 degrees. By zero degrees it can't gasify at all. And as it gasifies the tank becomes colder, a vicious circle.
Not usually a problem in Summer, but very real in Winter. In Summer I don't use much gas anyway, it is in Winter when I do, for heating, and continental autogas just isn't up to it. From experience.
Underslung tanks were designed for liquid takeoff for vehicle engines, which vaporise the stuff using engine coolant to boil it up, so don't suffer from this.
They have been re-purposed for vapour takeoff in e.g. motorhome installations by a few companies, but it's far from being a perfect solution, except maybe fair weather use abroad, or with UK propane autogas, when you can find it.
If you are using gas in cold climates you need propane, not a continental propane/butane mix. The best way to get this over there is swappable cylinders.
UK autogas is supposedly nearly 100% propane, so it's not so much a concern here.
Everything you might want to know about autogas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas
This thing: https://www.gaslowdirect.com/Gaslow-Reserve-Cylinder-Connection-Hose
This would be the correct way to do it. It's quite neat because gas from the external cylinder will only flow if the pressure inside the refillable is less than that of the external one i.e. it is empty. Or conversely if the refillable had been filled with a butane/propane mix (typical abroad) but due to cold weather the propane had vaporised first leaving unusable liquid butane behind (has happened to me in Spain, level gauge indicating plenty left, but actually unusable), connecting an external propane cylinder would save the day.
AFAIK you don't need an internal gas locker to transport swappable cylinders, you can just chuck them in the back, then plug them in outside when stationary. Or swap them around with the ones in a gas locker. Otherwise how would anyone transport one ? There may be some limitation on how much you can carry, Eurotunnel for example are quite specific about this, but it's quite a lot.
It should work for those with underslung tanks as well.
By the way, underslung tank users can/do suffer the same cold weather problems with continental autogas, the butane content won't gasify leaving maybe 30% butane useless in the tank. This is compounded every time you re-fill there is less capacity to re fill, then more butane accumulates, and so on until basically you have a tank full of butane. You have distilled off the propane, leaving the useless butane behind. Which won't gasify until you have much warmer weather. By cold I only mean say 5-10 degrees. By zero degrees it can't gasify at all. And as it gasifies the tank becomes colder, a vicious circle.
Not usually a problem in Summer, but very real in Winter. In Summer I don't use much gas anyway, it is in Winter when I do, for heating, and continental autogas just isn't up to it. From experience.
Underslung tanks were designed for liquid takeoff for vehicle engines, which vaporise the stuff using engine coolant to boil it up, so don't suffer from this.
They have been re-purposed for vapour takeoff in e.g. motorhome installations by a few companies, but it's far from being a perfect solution, except maybe fair weather use abroad, or with UK propane autogas, when you can find it.
If you are using gas in cold climates you need propane, not a continental propane/butane mix. The best way to get this over there is swappable cylinders.
UK autogas is supposedly nearly 100% propane, so it's not so much a concern here.
Everything you might want to know about autogas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas
Nabsim
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That’s my get out of jail option Baz for if my regulator packs up. As has been stated there is a pipe Gaslow do that screw-in to the fill socket. Will have to double check but I think I have a suitable pipe in the gas locker. I think Charlie said I did anyway lol
Sharpie
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We are drifting off a little now.
If your regulator has packed up then the Gaslow pipe won't help.
Backfeed from a BBQ point using a basic on-bottle regulator (what is it, butane, propane, how many millibar, is it 28, or 37 or 30, is 30 the right number etc.) and that should work, but is highly inadvisable. Particularly if your regulator has failed. Who knows in what way ? Is back feeding it in a failed condition such a great idea ?
Just carry a spare regulator and the tools to fit it, ten minute job. If it is a Truma it will fail sooner or later. If a Clesse it will probably last forever.
Since in the UK we don't have to have gas inspections which should include quite detailed checks of the regulator and get some warning of problems, most of us continue regardless. Until it stops working. As they can do. Then we get frustrated, unless we have taken basic precautions and carry a spare just in case.
trevskoda
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Easy to do if you have a tap between regulator and distribution valves,one of the valve/taps out can also do as a gas in point if using a bottle with a clip on regulator,thats what i did so i can have a backup.
Nabsim
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Bbq point an bottle regulator is my emergency gas route if bulkhead reg fails. Gaslow pipe is for connecting additional bottle to fill pipe utilising bulkhead reg.
Sharpie
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This thread started as a question about what might be the future if/when UK autogas supply becomes more scarce, and questioning the wisdom of having a vehicle that has no other gas storage than an underslung tank.
Particularly when, in practice, Calor have pretty much a monopoly on swappable cylinders and can charge silly prices for their contents, which the others pretty much track.
molly 2 was correct in thinking that using diesel for heating might become the preferred option, that is my thinking too and is worthy of discussion. Of which there has been none.
This has now digressed into talk of connecting bottles via BBQ points or otherwise, regulator failure etc., I see that as drifting away from the original question channa, interesting though it might be.
Out.
Particularly when, in practice, Calor have pretty much a monopoly on swappable cylinders and can charge silly prices for their contents, which the others pretty much track.
molly 2 was correct in thinking that using diesel for heating might become the preferred option, that is my thinking too and is worthy of discussion. Of which there has been none.
This has now digressed into talk of connecting bottles via BBQ points or otherwise, regulator failure etc., I see that as drifting away from the original question channa, interesting though it might be.
Out.
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antiquesam
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As a lot of Calor depots have an lpg pump then they may swiftly have a monopoly there too.
Sharpie
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OK, in again.
Calor were in an alliance with Shell, I think called Autogas something or other. Shell were then the biggest outlet, but they have since done a U turn and announced their intention to take out lpg pumps and replace with electric chargers which they see as the future. And are doing so. BP still seem to keep them going, for now.
The main suppliers of LPG are Calor of course, BP Gas, Avanti Gas, and Flogas. If you are unfortunate enough to have to use a bulk tank for home use it will probably be one of these who supplies it.
A very clued up relative, after doing the sums, ripped out his bulk lpg installation and replaced it with good old oil. Not very eco but financially it made perfect sense.
The government, in their madness, want to do away with mains gas all together, we are supposed to just use 'leccy and heat pumps in future. Very strange and can't possibly work. Or maybe methane will be miraculously replaced with dangerous hydrogen in the mains, made inefficiently from methane or other stuff and the carbon spirited away to be captured and stored in maybe an old gas field. Trials already being prepared in the North East. Nevermind where the 'leccy might come from, meanwhile for now gas turbines and big banks of diesel generators (there is still good money in building one of these, you get well paid when they are used, and paid when they aren't, and paid to put them in in the first place) keep the lights on and industry running (or turned off) when supply gets tight. Then we are all supposed to be driving pure EVs quite soon. Hmm.
But I digress, as usual. Sorry.
Calor were in an alliance with Shell, I think called Autogas something or other. Shell were then the biggest outlet, but they have since done a U turn and announced their intention to take out lpg pumps and replace with electric chargers which they see as the future. And are doing so. BP still seem to keep them going, for now.
The main suppliers of LPG are Calor of course, BP Gas, Avanti Gas, and Flogas. If you are unfortunate enough to have to use a bulk tank for home use it will probably be one of these who supplies it.
A very clued up relative, after doing the sums, ripped out his bulk lpg installation and replaced it with good old oil. Not very eco but financially it made perfect sense.
The government, in their madness, want to do away with mains gas all together, we are supposed to just use 'leccy and heat pumps in future. Very strange and can't possibly work. Or maybe methane will be miraculously replaced with dangerous hydrogen in the mains, made inefficiently from methane or other stuff and the carbon spirited away to be captured and stored in maybe an old gas field. Trials already being prepared in the North East. Nevermind where the 'leccy might come from, meanwhile for now gas turbines and big banks of diesel generators (there is still good money in building one of these, you get well paid when they are used, and paid when they aren't, and paid to put them in in the first place) keep the lights on and industry running (or turned off) when supply gets tight. Then we are all supposed to be driving pure EVs quite soon. Hmm.
But I digress, as usual. Sorry.
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molly 2
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good info. Thanks
GreggBear
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How long does it take to recharge an electric vehicle? In assuming quite a while. If lpg pumps are going to be replaced by charging points in garages, how long before forecourt become car parks full of charging vehicles?
I don't see a vehicle that runs for less than 250miles then takes in excess of an hour to "refuel" being a practical solution to every man. Bear in mind a vast amount of us don't drive to an office every day where we would be able to charge while at work....
I don't see a vehicle that runs for less than 250miles then takes in excess of an hour to "refuel" being a practical solution to every man. Bear in mind a vast amount of us don't drive to an office every day where we would be able to charge while at work....
Sharpie
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Do your homework, it's an evolving technology. Several different forecourt charging systems, mutually incompatible, different current capability, different charging structures, some can really blast it in whilst you have a coffee and a sandwich, if the vehicle is compatible, but that requires absolutely massive connections to the grid.
When you look into the pricing using one of these you may discover that it costs at least as much as using fossil fuel.
Put it this way, a petrol or diesel pump delivers fuel at maybe 50 litres per minute, though modern ones are slowed down as you may have noticed to avoid overwhelming the vapour recovery systems that should work if you actually clamp the nozzle in firmly so the rubbery bit seals over the filler whilst pressing it into place, no more trigger locks, you have to stand there holding it in. The truck ones 120 l/min and still have trigger locks. So just one ordinary diesel pump can maybe squirt out fuel at 50 litres/minute, 10 kWh/l at the equivalent of say half a megawatt. Imagine what a big filling station at busy times is delivering, and how that might be replaced by 'leccy.
You burn fossil fuel in your engine with maybe 30% efficiency. Electricity from the mains still comes largely from fossil fuel, and old nuclear stations that will soon all be gone, maybe one new one built, though even that is looking questionable. but wind is also making a big contribution nowadays, though highly variable. As well as a little bit from solar farms. We do still burn coal at times, not sure where it comes from, some big opencast mines are still operating profitably, whereas we have no deep mines left, despite there being huge amounts left there.
At least you can pile up coal in a heap, ready for when you really need it.
A good combined cycle gas turbine will be more efficient than an engine, but by the time you have distributed the power and charged up an EV, how does that compare ? And where does that gas come from, it's drying up here, lots of it is LNG shipped in from e.g Russia or the USA. Germany has seen this coming and made arrangements with Russia, Nordstream 1 and 2, very controversial but meanwhile burns filthy brown coal, having turned off all nuclear. Though I suspect they are happy enough to import it from France, just as we do, the interconnector only ever runs one way, usually flat out. But then France is in a pickle too, their old reactors are wearing out and the new designs are not living up to expectations. And what to do with the waste, and decommissioning.
Home chargers for those fortunate to have a driveway are limited by the household supply which was never sized for this sort of demand. Usually they can do it overnight. But on the right tariff, using off-peak, it can be very inexpensive to run one.
Until say every lamp post has a charging socket it's just not going to be practical for those who don't have a driveway to keep their EVs running, except by using high power charging points and paying quite high prices.
The big supermarkets are looking into putting some in so whilst you do your shop you can get charged up. That could work.
My generation has had an easy ride, my nephews and nieces will have to live with the future whatever it may turn out to be. Sadly our government doesn't appear to be capable of joined up thinking on energy policy
When you look into the pricing using one of these you may discover that it costs at least as much as using fossil fuel.
Put it this way, a petrol or diesel pump delivers fuel at maybe 50 litres per minute, though modern ones are slowed down as you may have noticed to avoid overwhelming the vapour recovery systems that should work if you actually clamp the nozzle in firmly so the rubbery bit seals over the filler whilst pressing it into place, no more trigger locks, you have to stand there holding it in. The truck ones 120 l/min and still have trigger locks. So just one ordinary diesel pump can maybe squirt out fuel at 50 litres/minute, 10 kWh/l at the equivalent of say half a megawatt. Imagine what a big filling station at busy times is delivering, and how that might be replaced by 'leccy.
You burn fossil fuel in your engine with maybe 30% efficiency. Electricity from the mains still comes largely from fossil fuel, and old nuclear stations that will soon all be gone, maybe one new one built, though even that is looking questionable. but wind is also making a big contribution nowadays, though highly variable. As well as a little bit from solar farms. We do still burn coal at times, not sure where it comes from, some big opencast mines are still operating profitably, whereas we have no deep mines left, despite there being huge amounts left there.
At least you can pile up coal in a heap, ready for when you really need it.
A good combined cycle gas turbine will be more efficient than an engine, but by the time you have distributed the power and charged up an EV, how does that compare ? And where does that gas come from, it's drying up here, lots of it is LNG shipped in from e.g Russia or the USA. Germany has seen this coming and made arrangements with Russia, Nordstream 1 and 2, very controversial but meanwhile burns filthy brown coal, having turned off all nuclear. Though I suspect they are happy enough to import it from France, just as we do, the interconnector only ever runs one way, usually flat out. But then France is in a pickle too, their old reactors are wearing out and the new designs are not living up to expectations. And what to do with the waste, and decommissioning.
Home chargers for those fortunate to have a driveway are limited by the household supply which was never sized for this sort of demand. Usually they can do it overnight. But on the right tariff, using off-peak, it can be very inexpensive to run one.
Until say every lamp post has a charging socket it's just not going to be practical for those who don't have a driveway to keep their EVs running, except by using high power charging points and paying quite high prices.
The big supermarkets are looking into putting some in so whilst you do your shop you can get charged up. That could work.
My generation has had an easy ride, my nephews and nieces will have to live with the future whatever it may turn out to be. Sadly our government doesn't appear to be capable of joined up thinking on energy policy
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