student s hi jinks in london

[shawbags]

It's a shame that such a few rabble get so much attention from the news media. I doubt if many of the real trouble makers actually go to university.

Getting back to the main point of tution fees, given that a government decides on a budget, you can't pick & mix bits of it to suit your own situation. To me the tuition fees have no interest to me as both my kids are working (one has just finished an apprenticeship, she had to do an extra year on low pay to keep her job or leave. It is not an easy option & in some ways she has had to suffer for 4 years) From my understanding they don't have to pay any money back until they are earning a reasonable wage, many of them will go on to earn large sums of money from the rest of us. I do believe that the fees should be proportional to how useful the job they will be doing when they qualify.
If people think things like this are bad just wait until the VAT goes up this will mean everything will go up (even food as the cost of producing & transport will be affected)
I have never & can never see myself ever voting for the tory party, but I believe in democracy & they won the largest share of the vote. While I disagree with many of their policies I am not prepared to accept the 'mob rules' mentality. I sympathize with anybody who conned by the liberals who seem to be willing to ditch all their promises for the sake of a bit of power & can only see them losing many seats. They have done nothing to help their views on PR or the alternative vote system as any such change would lead to more coalitions.

Well had may say & I'll leave it at that

Hi there,you will always get the idiots who want to cause trouble and i do believe the lad who threw the fire exstiguisher off the top of the conservative building should spend a little time locked up as punishment,on the other hand the goverment will always do there best to make out that they were a rable and never take any notice of there demands as they have already stated,so what should we do to be heard,cheers Shawbags.

 

[John H]

Don't want to get in a protracted argument over this but in my view there are lazy brits and hardworking brits as well as lazy foreigners and hardworking foreigners. I prefer to judge people as individuals rather than by nationality.

By the way, and I am not saying this is the case in your example, from my days as a local councillor I can tell you that some people bought their council houses and then still expected the council to do all the maintenance and repairs! And in our council, no foreigner took preference over a brit, whatever the general view might be.

 

[shawbags]

I myself have had alot of involvement with the council and our local councillor over the last 3 years and have seen with my own eyes how foriegners are being looked after over true brits in certain cases,the people that i was taking about are still trying to get double glazing fitted in there house and yet in that time 4 more houses have been refited and 3 now have foriegners living in them.one of the other things is the waste,its unbelievable how many usefull materials are thrown away instead of being taken back to the depot and used at a later date and i am not talking about maybe a piece of timer.I know for a fact the type of things that go on as i know a lot of people who work or have worked for our councils and have on many occasion witnesed situation myself.E.g,nearly a full pack of very exspensive bricks being throw away instead of being taken back to the storage depot,they where crushed by the hiab that lifted them onto the truck.when i put this to our local coucilor he's answer was," these things do happen sometimes" and that was it,end of,these things happen on a regular basis not sometimes,it is easier to allow it to carry on just for an easy life instead of doing there job properly and earning there money.Another example,why is it that there are contractors working for the council when there own skilled labour has no work to do at the cost of the tax payer,again i have known this has gone on for a long time but i am know happy to say that a lot of the contract work has been stoped.
As for using the words foriegner and brit it is a simple way of explaining myself and nothing else,i myself have grown up with people who originaly came from other countrys some good some bad but they all worked and one of the reason i like to travel is because you meet people from all walks of life,cheers Shawbags.

 

[John H]

By the law of averages, there will always be people who are unfairly treated - sometimes at the expense of foreigners, sometimes at the expense of brits. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but that stupidity, inefficiency, waste and lack of care are not confined to just one group. What you say about waste and contracting out while council workers are lying idle I totally agree with. As for the people who are waiting for their new windows while others get them, ultimately they ought to refer the matter to the local government ombudsman if they cant get satisfaction from the council. There are rules and they need to be enforced if fairness isn't being observed.

 

[shawbags]

by the law of averages, there will always be people who are unfairly treated - sometimes at the expense of foreigners, sometimes at the expense of brits. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but that stupidity, inefficiency, waste and lack of care are not confined to just one group. What you say about waste and contracting out while council workers are lying idle i totally agree with. As for the people who are waiting for their new windows while others get them, ultimately they ought to refer the matter to the local government ombudsman if they cant get satisfaction from the council. There are rules and they need to be enforced if fairness isn't being observed.

you would not believe some of the work i have seen caried out by council staff,un bloody believable,i could go on forever.

 

[sagart]

true brits,cheers Shawbags.

Seem to remember that this country has been ruled by Norwegians/Romans/French/German/Dutch and Welsh rulers....not including invasion and immigration for more than 2000 years so a true Brit appears to be like a Heinz bottle made up of at least 57 varieties

 

[Deleted member 3802]

divide and conquer ? the oldest rule in the book never let the differant groups find a common course ? spin doctors and the media lead us by the nose always have and always will,money and finance controls everything and whoever controls that decides every thing else.
1972ish after the winter of discontent the powers that be released money like never before morgages,bank cards ect get the workers used to foreign holidays,new cars on drives teles in every room pay later on the never never,now it's the norm we can't do with out the designer labels ect we have to work what ever sh!te they throw at us

 

[Dezi]

divide and conquer ? the oldest rule in the book never let the differant groups find a common course ? spin doctors and the media lead us by the nose always have and always will,money and finance controls everything and whoever controls that decides every thing else.
1972ish after the winter of discontent the powers that be released money like never before morgages,bank cards ect get the workers used to foreign holidays,new cars on drives teles in every room pay later on the never never,now it's the norm we can't do with out the designer labels ect we have to work what ever sh!te they throw at us

Actually old un there is another way.
Alexander the great had led his victorious, but pi**ed off army several thousand miles until they reached the banks of the Indus river. At this point a young general said. “Sir there comes a time when even great men need to be satisfied with their achievements & stop. Alexander listened & the army turned towards home.
This little homily applies to all of us, great or not. If we stop constantly striving. Refused to be induced to work longer for a bigger house, car, t.v.,pension, etc & remained satisfied with what we have then early retirement & real freedom begins. Its called “ getting out of the rat race”
Dezi

 

[John H]

Actually old un there is another way.
Alexander the great had led his victorious, but pi**ed off army several thousand miles until they reached the banks of the Indus river. At this point a young general said. “Sir there comes a time when even great men need to be satisfied with their achievements & stop. Alexander listened & the army turned towards home.
This little homily applies to all of us, great or not. If we stop constantly striving. Refused to be induced to work longer for a bigger house, car, t.v.,pension, etc & remained satisfied with what we have then early retirement & real freedom begins. Its called “ getting out of the rat race”
Dezi

True, very true - but since Alexander died shortly after in suspicious circumstances and at the age of 33, perhaps you could think of a more inspiring example????

 

[Dezi]

True, very true - but since Alexander died shortly after in suspicious circumstances and at the age of 33, perhaps you could think of a more inspiring example????

au contraire mon ami, The example I used is perfect.

He knew when to stop - a few weeks later & it would have beem to late.

incidently the "suspicious" has more or less been removed from his death for at least 20 years.

Dezi

 

[John H]

Didn't have much of a retirement though, did he?

 

[Dezi]

Didn't have much of a retirement though, did he?

I agree, I think it was was sight of a financial advisor coming to discuss his pension plan & what he actually intended to do in his retirement that did for him.

If only he'd had a motorhome.

Dezi

 

[sagart]

Anyone else ever seen a French Candian film called "The Decline of the American Empire"?
It offers the theory that one sign of the ending of a nation's "status" is when the urge to think of corporate good is replaced by an obsession with personal happiness. This in the sense of what is "right for me".
A couple of local university student activists were asked why those who cannot go to university should fund through taxes those who could and their answer was "it's our right". Some of our lower paid, but still taxpayers, up here were not impressed.

 

[shawbags]

Seem to remember that this country has been ruled by Norwegians/Romans/French/German/Dutch and Welsh rulers....not including invasion and immigration for more than 2000 years so a true Brit appears to be like a Heinz bottle made up of at least 57 varieties

Hi there,We could say that about the whole world because somewhere down the line we are all of mixed race.I'm sure you know what i mean when i say true brits ,its my way of explaining myself,my family aparently originated from scotland many years ago (The Shaw clan) but i class myself as English,not that it matters, cheers Shawbags. P.S do you class yourself as scottish ?.

 

[John H]

Anyone else ever seen a French Candian film called "The Decline of the American Empire"?
It offers the theory that one sign of the ending of a nation's "status" is when the urge to think of corporate good is replaced by an obsession with personal happiness. This in the sense of what is "right for me".
A couple of local university student activists were asked why those who cannot go to university should fund through taxes those who could and their answer was "it's our right". Some of our lower paid, but still taxpayers, up here were not impressed.

I don't agree with the "its our right" bit but we all pay for things that we don't use - that is the sign of a civilised society. Childless people pay for schools, well people pay for hospitals, non-car owners pay for the roads, pacifists pay for trident missiles etc etc. That is the way our society is supposed to work and I really feel for students today who are having to pay a fortune at a time they can ill-afford it to get what I think any civilised society should provide as a matter of course. And if anyone thinks they shouldn't pay for the education of others, I would ak them if they've ever needed a doctor.

 

[sagart]

I have to admit to an amount of bias in this. Yes, I went to University (King's College London in the 60's) and got a degree there.
But, I had to fund this myself as my parents could not afford to and I was in the grants trap which existed then.
I was accepted for my course while living in Plymouth, but thanks to my father being re-allocated to Derby I did not apply for a grant until then, about 4 months later.
The result was that Plymouth said "Not our responsibity, you're living in Derby while Derbyshire said, "Not ours, you were accepted by Kings while in Plymouth"
The result was that I went to Rolls Royce in Derby to earn enough to cover my fees.
Friends in the US are totally used to this system and, unless we believe in the altruism of students, it is only those who expect to earn over £21,000 who will have to pay anything back...so, apparently, it's the one who hope to receive the most who are the least willing to repay...

 

[John H]

it is only those who expect to earn over £21,000 who will have to pay anything back...so, apparently, it's the one who hope to receive the most who are the least willing to repay...

Hi

The £21k limit comes in in 2016, by which time it will be worth not much more than the current level due to inflation, so I think this figure was included simply so the LibDems could pretend it isn't as bad as people think it is.

I went to University in the 1960s and had a similar story to you - my parents moved from London to Berkshire and different authorities argued over who should pay but we eventually got the grant. I also, like everybody else, had summer holiday jobs to help pay my way. The result was that I graduated without debt. My grandchildren will, on the other hand, have to look forward to repaying enormous debts at a time when, presumably, they are thinking of getting married, setting up home and having children - all of which are expensive enough without adding anything else on top. I know there is no easy answer but I cant help feeling angry that they will in all probability have less opportunity to experience what I did - especially if they have the temerity to choose a "useless" subject like history.

 

[Dezi]

Hi

The £21k limit comes in in 2016, by which time it will be worth not much more than the current level due to inflation, so I think this figure was included simply so the LibDems could pretend it isn't as bad as people think it is.

I went to University in the 1960s and had a similar story to you - my parents moved from London to Berkshire and different authorities argued over who should pay but we eventually got the grant. I also, like everybody else, had summer holiday jobs to help pay my way. The result was that I graduated without debt. My grandchildren will, on the other hand, have to look forward to repaying enormous debts at a time when, presumably, they are thinking of getting married, setting up home and having children - all of which are expensive enough without adding anything else on top. I know there is no easy answer but I cant help feeling angry that they will in all probability have less opportunity to experience what I did - especially if they have the temerity to choose a "useless" subject like history.

Really, As the Spanish philosopher George Santayana once said
“Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.” in The Life of Reason Vol.1, Reason in common sense 1905-06.
Possibly if we had more students going down the academic history route & less going the financial one, then we would not be in the present situation.

Dezi

 

[John H]

[/COLOR]

Really, As the Spanish philosopher George Santayana once said
“Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.” in The Life of Reason Vol.1, Reason in common sense 1905-06.
Possibly if we had more students going down the academic history route & less going the financial one, then we would not be in the present situation.

Dezi

That is precisely my point - the present crop of politicians in power obviously have learned nothing from history and now they want to stop future politicians from doing so.

 

[Dezi]

Hi, So why do you claim it to be a useless subject ? Obviously if we have not learned

enough from it " so far" then it becomes even more relevent & we need to study it more.

Or are you doing a Wittgenstein argument ?

Dezi