No parking for us.

[Fisherman]

My bold in your post above. The point I make is that there are no grumbling customers. Never has a council been able to point to any significant number of grumbles. Never. The nearest a council came was North Yorkshire (talking about Scarborough) where an Assistant Chief Execuive stated to MMM magazine that while there was no hard evidence of complaints her memory was clear that there was sufficient anecotal evidence. She thought this was enough to restrict freedoms of citizens. We are to depend on her memory of anecdotal, unrecorded complaints and this is sufficient to create crimes.

They have come close to finding grumbles in recent times. The PSPO legislation says that there must be public consultation before a PSPO is authorised. Councils routinely apply this requirement by offering a qeustionairre. In my opinion, and that of groups such as Liberty, the questioins can be, and are, loaded. An example; in Rother, the council asked the question something like: "Do you think motorhomes should be allowed to camp at the roadside for unlimited periods?" I think the required answer is clear.

I think we will see councils ceasing the use ofTROs to control us and will move to the easier production of PSPOs creating the crime of parking - a crime decriminalised by central goverment some years ago.

The caravan industry, of which we are part, makes an important conttribution to the economy. Ths report https://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk...-contributes-six-billion-pounds-to-uk-economy says we are part of the six billion pound contribution.

The figure as per the caravan and Motorhome club report is actually £9.3 billion. And that was prior to the hike in road tax.

New Report Finds UK Campsite And Holiday Park Sector Generates £9.3B In Visitor Spending

Holiday parks and campsites around the UK generate £9.3bn in visitor expenditure and support 171,448 full-time employees, according to the report 'Pitching the Value'. Published today, it focuses on the economic impact of the sector, together with the health and wellbeing benefits of such holidays.

www.forbes.com

 

[Fisherman]

Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.

Unfortunately the authorities do think they're doing the right thing erecting barriers,
signage, etc. they're not all stupid numpties as some would believe, it's their solution
to a problem, often the traveller one...... and it's possibly the cheapest method to show they're
doing something proactively to their grumbling customers , often before the actual problem
manifests itself in their own jurisdiction

I don't know how you can differentiate between groups of people carrying out
a lifestyle, from those carrying out a leisure activity, without contravening ethnic, racial
discrimination Laws of some kind or another. One hat for all it has to be.

Thanx for the like Trev. lol

First I hate to see someone coming on to a forum with a reasonable pov as yours, then possibly feeling that they are not being treated fairly daygoboy, so like Trev I have also liked your initial post on this thread. Just to encourage you to keep up the debate.

you see were we don’t agree is you attempt to make what is clear discrimination against us look balanced and reasonable. I reckon that if you see something done often enough or are told something often enough it begins to look reasonable, when in actual fact its not. What’s being done to us has no real logic or is a solution to what you term a problem, us. The fact that we are seen as a problem initiates a process which although common is clearly wrong and unjust. Putting up barriers and signage is also not a solution to their perceived problem. All it does is move the issue elsewhere, and further reduces spaces available creating problems in those places that still remain. We have a situation were each year more and more Motorhomes come onto our roads with less spaces available for them.

It is possible to differentiate between us and the travelling community, who are a problem, who do cause serious issues, who do take advantage of situations which they should never do, but who receive better consideration than us, and who have more rights than us. If most countries in Europe who have per capita more Motorhomes than us can provide basic facilities why can’t we. Let me answer that question. We are not seen as a problem or a burden in Europe but we are here. It’s all about attitude not fact, not being reasonable, or even pragmatic. It’s simply bonkers.

When I got my first van four years ago I could not believe how we were being treated. I never realised just how poor things were here.

Yes there are thousands upon thousands of places we can “wild camp”, and we are spoilt for choice up here in Scotland, but for those of us who like to visit a town or a city now and then things are getting worse year in year out.

 

[trevskoda]

Never voted in my life,but want out as we do our own thing here,down south there in but still do there own thing.

 

[daygoboy]

Of course I can see things from the point of view of the majority of us motorhomers..... that's easy. I'm trying to see it from anotherangle. We might be correct in our claims of how much we put into the community, that generally we are well behaved, it's not us leaving the rubbish, we don't overstay our welcome, we park
considerately, we pay high taxes on new vehicles, I can't believe most in authority haven't been made aware of these "benefits" over the years, well if so then why don't the fecking authorities (apart from the enlightened few) acknowledge these facts with positive measures regarding making us feel more welcome, along with making access and parking and facilities freely available.

In truth, even as car drivers we don't exactly reckon things are getting any easier.......do we? Plenty of lobby groups and vested interest parties.

No, I can only conclude that on balance your average councillor listens to his however few complainers/moaners with their anecdotes, and thinks he'll side with them that vote for him. I doubt the thought of being legally challenged by M/homers enters his mind or that it worries him unduly if it does, probably because not many of us have the resolve, time or money to follow through with litigation. Add to that the very negative attitude taken by the general public overall in this country towards the caravanner (and by association the motorcaravanner) and the problems for us are compounded. Takes generations for cultural attitudes to change and the way things are at the present time with austerity, they may even harden. I can almost guarantee that if I park in a local supermarket car park for any length of time some wag will go past and bang the side, it's that sort of attitude you have to overcome.
Will it ever change for us here, your guess is as good as mine!

I can say that even in France, the M/homers paradise as was, amenity and tolerance for us the M/homer is slowly being eroded, probably not noticeably so to M/homing newbies but for us oldtimers it definitely is.

 

[trevskoda]

Some small villages here who own ground have opened up to vans as they know fine well we will spend some money,food fuel etc,broughshane for one used a old mill yard and put in the gubbins required,local shops sell tokens to feed the monster which is at the start of the glens.

 

[Fisherman]

Of course I can see things from the point of view of the majority of us motorhomers..... that's easy. I'm trying to see it from anotherangle. We might be correct in our claims of how much we put into the community, that generally we are well behaved, it's not us leaving the rubbish, we don't overstay our welcome, we park
considerately, we pay high taxes on new vehicles, I can't believe most in authority haven't been made aware of these "benefits" over the years, well if so then why don't the fecking authorities (apart from the enlightened few) acknowledge these facts with positive measures regarding making us feel more welcome, along with making access and parking and facilities freely available.

In truth, even as car drivers we don't exactly reckon things are getting any easier.......do we? Plenty of lobby groups and vested interest parties.

No, I can only conclude that on balance your average councillor listens to his however few complainers/moaners with their anecdotes, and thinks he'll side with them that vote for him. I doubt the thought of being legally challenged by M/homers enters his mind or that it worries him unduly if it does, probably because not many of us have the resolve, time or money to follow through with litigation. Add to that the very negative attitude taken by the general public overall in this country towards the caravanner (and by association the motorcaravanner) and the problems for us are compounded. Takes generations for cultural attitudes to change and the way things are at the present time with austerity, they may even harden. I can almost guarantee that if I park in a local supermarket car park for any length of time some wag will go past and bang the side, it's that sort of attitude you have to overcome.
Will it ever change for us here, your guess is as good as mine!

I can say that even in France, the M/homers paradise as was, amenity and tolerance for us the M/homer is slowly being eroded, probably not noticeably so to M/homing newbies but for us oldtimers it definitely is.

This is why we badly need a body to work on our behalf.
They would validate their members giving them privileges regarding parking in agreement with local councils. Look into parking restrictions imposed unfairly against us. CampaIgn for more chemical waste facilities, and dedicated Motorhome parking. Assist us with any legal matters regarding our motor homing etc. Hopefully somebody out there young enough with the drive and determination required will start such an organisation.

Currently we are served by bodies who are only interested in selling us Motorhomes or pitches on their campsites. These organisation have self interest at heart, and actually attempt to discredit wild camping.

 

[Private]

I don’t believe motorhomers are being singled out any more than any other group of people.
We in the UK are living in oppressed times.

The government & their lackeys running the councils use every opportunity to oppress every group of people wherever & whenever possible all to the benefit of corporations.

They are shutting libraries at an alarming rate; they are introducing PSPO’s for trivial reasons & employing private companies to issue fines; they are running kangaoo courts to ‘fine’ people for failure to pay the ever increasing council tax on time; they are forcing disabled people to work; NHS workers (& others) have to pay to park at work; they are making driving prohibitively expensive & intentionally damaging our vehicles with ‘speed bumps’ & unrepaired potholes combined with ever tougher MOT tests; they are reducing the access to cash & have made new banknotes intentionally difficult to use; they are making every job more difficult to get into with unnecessary certification & legislation; it goes on & on.

I fight my corner more than most & receive hundreds of pounds in payoff’s & compensation over & over again but they never change the rules; they continue to use them against others who don’t have the time to fight.

The RAC & AA were motoring organisations for drivers (not just recovery services) & look at what they do to their members now - increase premiums every year until you call up & cancel at which point they offer you the proper rate.

If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism.

If you want motorhoming over here to be like in France, then you need to do as the French did in the 1700’s.

 

[2cv]

Some legislation is proposed which may make height barriers less necessary. Link

 

[daygoboy]

This is why we badly need a body to work on our behalf.
They would validate their members giving them privileges regarding parking in agreement with local councils. Look into parking restrictions imposed unfairly against us. CampaIgn for more chemical waste facilities, and dedicated Motorhome parking. Assist us with any legal matters regarding our motor homing etc. Hopefully somebody out there young enough with the drive and determination required will start such an organisation.

Currently we are served by bodies who are only interested in selling us Motorhomes or pitches on their campsites. These organisation have self interest at heart, and actually attempt to discredit wild camping.

A good summation into what is required, unfortunately I suspect other Motorhomers
are like myself, in that motorhoming is something we're not that committed to, not to the
extent that giving it up would be so calamitous, or that spending what could involve a lot of
time and effort on fighting for the cause as it were, would be thought worthwhile. With perhaps
little chance of much being changed, maybe the odd height bar, or car park restriction removed
here, a toilet dump provided there. How long before many towns have emission zones or crit air
equivalents, that won't help M/homers demands, "local council introduces low emission
zone, and provides aire for motorhomes" can't see that kind of contradiction occurring!
Even as things presently stand there are usually options, and ways round these obstacles and
restrictions, in my case I park outside of town and take the mbike in, I carry a topbox to fit the
cassette, pizza express boy style.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry in rectifying the lack of provision of a local
A and E department, or a cancer ward!

I think I'd be correct in stating that wildcampers tend to be individualistic in nature, at least so when
it involves M/homing matters, can't see them readily forming lobby or pressure groups somehow.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry when it comes to rectifying the lack of
provision of a local A and E or cancer ward.

 

[GreggBear]

Can't help wondering how long before these new laws will be applied to us...

 

[Fisherman]

I don’t believe motorhomers are being singled out any more than any other group of people.
We in the UK are living in oppressed times.

The government & their lackeys running the councils use every opportunity to oppress every group of people wherever & whenever possible all to the benefit of corporations.

They are shutting libraries at an alarming rate; they are introducing PSPO’s for trivial reasons & employing private companies to issue fines; they are running kangaoo courts to ‘fine’ people for failure to pay the ever increasing council tax on time; they are forcing disabled people to work; NHS workers (& others) have to pay to park at work; they are making driving prohibitively expensive & intentionally damaging our vehicles with ‘speed bumps’ & unrepaired potholes combined with ever tougher MOT tests; they are reducing the access to cash & have made new banknotes intentionally difficult to use; they are making every job more difficult to get into with unnecessary certification & legislation; it goes on & on.

I fight my corner more than most & receive hundreds of pounds in payoff’s & compensation over & over again but they never change the rules; they continue to use them against others who don’t have the time to fight.

The RAC & AA were motoring organisations for drivers (not just recovery services) & look at what they do to their members now - increase premiums every year until you call up & cancel at which point they offer you the proper rate.

If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism.

If you want motorhoming over here to be like in France, then you need to do as the French did in the 1700’s.

I think we are off on several tangents here.
When councils put up barriers in rural carparks to stop you from parking your Motorhome day and night, you are being discriminated against. When they put up signs saying no Motorhomes they are discriminating against you.

The manifold examples you give are derived from cut backs in order to save money during this period of austerity. We are not asking for vast sums of money to be spent. Actually we are asking them to save money by not putting up barriers and signs In the first place.

As for us organising a body to represent us, and this being deemed illegal, that comment beggars belief. The only organisations deemed illegal are prescribed organisations who threaten our security, or that are deemed racist, sectarian, or on moral grounds. I hardly think we would meet any such criteria.

 

[Fisherman]

A good summation into what is required, unfortunately I suspect other Motorhomers
are like myself, in that motorhoming is something we're not that committed to, not to the
extent that giving it up would be so calamitous, or that spending what could involve a lot of
time and effort on fighting for the cause as it were, would be thought worthwhile. With perhaps
little chance of much being changed, maybe the odd height bar, or car park restriction removed
here, a toilet dump provided there. How long before many towns have emission zones or crit air
equivalents, that won't help M/homers demands, "local council introduces low emission
zone, and provides aire for motorhomes" can't see that kind of contradiction occurring!
Even as things presently stand there are usually options, and ways round these obstacles and
restrictions, in my case I park outside of town and take the mbike in, I carry a topbox to fit the
cassette, pizza express boy style.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry in rectifying the lack of provision of a local
A and E department, or a cancer ward!

I think I'd be correct in stating that wildcampers tend to be individualistic in nature, at least so when
it involves M/homing matters, can't see them readily forming lobby or pressure groups somehow.

Mind you I can see myself getting involved and bloody angry when it comes to rectifying the lack of
provision of a local A and E or cancer ward.

Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.

 

[antiquesam]

I think we may be getting a little paranoied here. Height barriers don't only affect motorhomers but any van driver with a height of over 2 metres. White van man should also has the right to use his van into town or to the seaside.
No motorhome signs are, however, discriminating against users and need to be justified.

 

[Fisherman]

I think we may be getting a little paranoied here. Height barriers don't only affect motorhomers but any van driver with a height of over 2 metres. White van man should also has the right to use his van into town or to the seaside.
No motorhome signs are, however, discriminating against users and need to be justified.

Sorry Sam but I can only speak for myself, and I don’t reckon that I am being paranoid. I am not talking about height barriers that are put up for other reasons such as in multi carparks with height restrictions, Mac Donald’s drive through due to overhanging roof soffats, town centre carparks with limited space, or put up for safety reasons. I am talking about locations where in some cases the probability is that large vehicles other than Motorhomes would rarely if ever use such carparks. Examples such as the barriers recently put up by East Lothian at Prestonpans or the two sets put up at Moffats white sands come to mind. There can be no doubt other than to prevent us getting access why these barriers and hundreds of others have been erected. What I would concede is they are also barriers for the travelling community, who I suspect the councils in some cases are worried over.

 

[daygoboy]

Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.

The point I was making is that motorhoming matters figure low in my list of things to be
overly concerned over, provision of a local A&E dept. and local cancer ward on the other
hand rate highly,

The installation of height barriers to prevent access by the travelling community answers
part of the question of why councils are reluctant to make provision for m/homers that's a given.

Until there's much more provision made for the travelling community then the situation will not change. Does the
average council tax payer want to put his hand in his pocket and pay for traveller sites, especially
if he might find it sited in his own back yard?

 

[Private]

I wrote:
"If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism. "

You responded:
"As for us organising a body to represent us, and this being deemed illegal, that comment beggars belief. The only organisations deemed illegal are prescribed organisations who threaten our security, or that are deemed racist, sectarian, or on moral grounds. I hardly think we would meet any such criteria. "

I was alluding to actually gathering to protest at a site, not just organising a group.
However your list of criteria for organisations that are deemed illegal shows how flexible & open to interpretation those laws are too.

I was once moved on by police on behalf of a security company for parking up overnight in a truck on an industrial estate; they used the 'terrorism card' as justification.

 

[Fisherman]

I wrote:
"If you got a few people together it would probably be classed as unlawful assembly these days and be broken up & punished with laws brought in to prevent terrorism. "

You responded:
"As for us organising a body to represent us, and this being deemed illegal, that comment beggars belief. The only organisations deemed illegal are prescribed organisations who threaten our security, or that are deemed racist, sectarian, or on moral grounds. I hardly think we would meet any such criteria. "

I was alluding to actually gathering to protest at a site, not just organising a group.
However your list of criteria for organisations that are deemed illegal shows how flexible & open to interpretation those laws are too.

I was once moved on by police on behalf of a security company for parking up overnight in a truck on an industrial estate; they used the 'terrorism card' as justification.

Who mentioned a protest group.
I am not interested in a protest group.
But in this country people organise protest marches every week.
I doubt if we would be classed as terrorists

 

[Fisherman]

The point I was making is that motorhoming matters figure low in my list of things to be
overly concerned over, provision of a local A&E dept. and local cancer ward on the other
hand rate highly,

The installation of height barriers to prevent access by the travelling community answers
part of the question of why councils are reluctant to make provision for m/Daygo that's a given.

Until there's much more provision made for the travelling community then the situation will not change. Does the
average council tax payer want to put his hand in his pocket and pay for traveller sites, especially
if he might find it sited in his own back yard?

Daygoboy you are stating the obvious.
Obviously we are at the bottom of the pile in comparison to the NHS and other important depts.
But we are not asking for billions to be spent, just stop putting up barriers and signage in some locations.
This does not require anything more than consultation, and won't affect in anyway the NHS.

 

[Private]

Your involvement could be limited to simply joining and paying £20 or so a year to be a member. The idea is you don’t do any fighting, your organisation does that on your behalf. As I stated in my last post, what we seek won’t cost much, if anything. It won’t effect someone needing cancer treatment. And crit air only affects built up areas, we have barriers in rural locations miles away from cities towns or built up areas affected by excessive polllution.

Is that not just a small extension to what this forum is already?

Maybe you could start by opening a thread highlighting a particular place that you believe to be unreasonably restricted & begin a campaign to overturn the restriction. Our very talented current members (thinking particularly of 'maureenandtom'!) could pitch in with advice on how to fight it & once a plan of action has been agreed on we could all email the relevant person or bodies involved as a show of numbers.
If that proves successful then you challenge another location.
The 'leaders' will become apparent & any success will attract new participants.
Rewarding those that have invested the most time & talent can become a consideration once a momentum has begun.

Start small, think big.

 

[maureenandtom]

In a little haste. There is one great advantage to motorhomers having an organisation to speak in our name. You can see it in https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/made

and this is the relevent paragraph in the Table in Paragraph 6.

Such other organisations (if any) representing persons likely to be affected by any provision in the order as the order making authority thinks it appropriate to consult

Up to now, there have been few applications to a local authority to cater for motorhomes by providing any facilities . Therefore any objection based on cost to local authorities is spurious - of no account, no one has asked a local authority to spend any money on us.

To date - most applications to local authorites have been to ask them NOT to spend money disciminating against us. Up to now this has mostly involved objecting to Traffic Regulation Orders but sometimes byelaws too.

If we object to a TRO, we do so as individuals. There have been two organisations purporting to act on our behalf. One is John Thompson;s tmcto and the other met with our disapproval. We didn't recognise the other as speaking for us and some of us (not me) wrote to local authorites to say so. However, on at least two occasions both organisations were recognised by local authorites ( N Yorks, Cornwall and, I think, Lincolnshire, a third maybe) as organisations they were required to consult. And these councils did so. With limited success for us mostly but a success is a success.