No parking for us.

[antiquesam]

I believe the original essence of this discussion was that it is increasingly difficult to find a daytime parking space for a motorhome in the countryside and towns, let alone an overnighting spot. The topic seems to have morphed into the regular discussion about the availability of overnighting spots in towns, which is important but isn't the topic we started on, which is a problem for all motorhomers, whether wilders or not.

 

[GreggBear]

Although I find it frustrating that so many towns have a put up all sorts of obstacles to stop us parking I can see the point in some cases. Here in Portsmouth I have seen travellers move onto a car park because the height barrier had been left open to allow a bin lorry in early the next morning, and the Common is regularly taken over despite boulders and gates. On the other hand we were in the West Midlands earlier this year and wanted to see the Back to Backs in Birmingham and Coventry Cathedral. I emailed both Councils in advance explaining this and that we had a dog so couldn't leave it and use public transport. Both Councils quickly responded by giving us permission to use a truck and bus park close to the centre. The moral, I suppose, is that we shouldn't knock all Councils when only a few are sinners.

Can't understand why they always seem to jump on us when the problem is obviously the travellers. In not prejudiced against gypsies, but you only have to look at an ex gypsy site to see the state they all get left in, yet the same laws that prevent us from parking anywhere actually seem to be in place to assist these gypsies in carrying on with the wholesale destruction they are known for....

 

[antiquesam]

Can't understand why they always seem to jump on us when the problem is obviously the travellers. In not prejudiced against gypsies, but you only have to look at an ex gypsy site to see the state they all get left in, yet the same laws that prevent us from parking anywhere actually seem to be in place to assist these gypsies in carrying on with the wholesale destruction they are known for....

I agree that we have got tied up in the traveller problem, but if they constantly search for sites and cause havoc then I can't see how a landowner can protect their property without causing an inconvenience to motorhomers and van drivers. There isn't a week goes by in Portsmouth when a car park or amenity space isn't invaded by the travelling community, who claim to be here for a family event.

 

[Caz]

If I go somewhere for a family event I have to book into a nearby campsite or find somewhere to park where I am not breaking any Laws or causing any nuisance to the locals.

Why can't the travellers be made to do the same?

I know it's their lifestyle - but it's my lifestyle too!

 

[daygoboy]

I mostly agree with you - I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public. Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...". Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.

As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't. Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it. Quite the opposite in fact; the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us. FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.

And this is true even when councils say there have been large numbers of complaints. Pressed to show them (FoI) – there are none. Lincolnshire for example said there were over 200 about motorhome overnighting at Huttoft Car Terrace. There were none. There were about 25 parking complaintsd for Lincolnshire entire and none of those 25 were about motorhomes.

Councillor Louise (I forget her name and the name of her council, it'll come to me if I need it) for her council said 90% of motorhomes left “effluence” behind when they left and the public was outraged. There were no complaints and the public was solidly in favour of motorhomes judging by the comments in the newpaper article reporting it.

Keswick (in the Press) reported large numbers of complaints and the newspaper printed a photograph of the litter we left behind at Portinscale. There were no complaints and (at the request of one of our memebers here) the newspaper admitted that the picture was a fake; that it was taken from “stock” and was not of the area used by motorhomes.

And I could go on. A very few times councils have been persuaded to (continue to) permit overnight parking (Fleetwood most recently, Noth Devcon years ago - and a few more) so their lies can sometimes backfire but usually councils have made their decisions and then looked for reasons for them. Bye -laws in East Lothian and Aberdeen not approved by the Scottish Govt because of lack of evidence of their assertions of complaints from the pubnlic. Qute a few more examples which don't trip off my mind right now.

We do need an organisation to talk on our behalf and I might be able to shed a little light on this some other time. We did have a couple and both had some success.

But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations.

Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.

At a guess I'd imagine the average councillor when faced with requests from a disgruntled M/homer regarding parking provision
is probably thinking, I'm not biased or prejudiced against M/Homers but why the hell don't you just get a car or better stilll get on the bus like the other 95% out there, you're giving me a headache!"

Yes, I agree the golden years are in the past, particularly as applies
to this country, which is the reason I use my van much less here in the summer,
I bet I don't get one like for writing what I see as the unpalatable truth.

 

[GreggBear]

As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....

 

[antiquesam]

As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....

I think you can do exactly the same as the travellers. Find a playing field or park and get your mates to join you. You then have a few days before the landowner gets a court order to get you off. The disadvantage you have over the traveller is that you have a permanent address where the police can contact you. The advantage you have though is that you will be welcome at a campsite, whereas your traveller will not.

 

[vwalan]

lots of interesting things to read ,,,here.https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/what-we-do/

 

[daygoboy]

As Caz says if we are unable to park in a place then the same should apply to everyone. Why should gypsies have more rights than us? Typical of this country, laws to protect the underbelly of society & discriminate against law abiding citizens....

Is it not the case that the Law applies equally, whether it is applied equally? I don't know,
it's just that some choose to ignore it, and say "watcha gonna do about it." And those
that pay the Law enforcers say"Christ it's going to take months and piles of taxpayers
money to call their bluff, we'll give them a bit of light touch hassle, and hope they'll move
on to the next jurisdiction be it Borough County etc."

 

[Fisherman]

I mostly agree with you - I've thought often that the golden age of our sort of motorhoming is over but not about the attitude, generally, of the public. Plenty of whingers but they're always with us and the only anecdotal evidence we have is of the - "I was talking to this guy down the pub last night, and he said ...". Useful, but ... well, it's one thing to whinge in the pub and quite another to find good reason for prejudice.

As a group, we are anxious to believe itis true that we are resented – but it isn't, we aren't. Or, at least, there is no hard evidence of it. Quite the opposite in fact; the only reliable judgement of public antagonism is the number of complaints authority receives about us. FoI requests show time after time that there are vanishingly small numbers of complaints about us.

And this is true even when councils say there have been large numbers of complaints. Pressed to show them (FoI) – there are none. Lincolnshire for example said there were over 200 about motorhome overnighting at Huttoft Car Terrace. There were none. There were about 25 parking complaintsd for Lincolnshire entire and none of those 25 were about motorhomes.

Councillor Louise (I forget her name and the name of her council, it'll come to me if I need it) for her council said 90% of motorhomes left “effluence” behind when they left and the public was outraged. There were no complaints and the public was solidly in favour of motorhomes judging by the comments in the newpaper article reporting it.

Keswick (in the Press) reported large numbers of complaints and the newspaper printed a photograph of the litter we left behind at Portinscale. There were no complaints and (at the request of one of our memebers here) the newspaper admitted that the picture was a fake; that it was taken from “stock” and was not of the area used by motorhomes.

And I could go on. A very few times councils have been persuaded to (continue to) permit overnight parking (Fleetwood most recently, Noth Devcon years ago - and a few more) so their lies can sometimes backfire but usually councils have made their decisions and then looked for reasons for them. Bye -laws in East Lothian and Aberdeen not approved by the Scottish Govt because of lack of evidence of their assertions of complaints from the pubnlic. Qute a few more examples which don't trip off my mind right now.

We do need an organisation to talk on our behalf and I might be able to shed a little light on this some other time. We did have a couple and both had some success.

Great post, many thanks.
i cannot agree more

 

[GreggBear]

I think you can do exactly the same as the travellers. Find a playing field or park and get your mates to join you. You then have a few days before the landowner gets a court order to get you off. The disadvantage you have over the traveller is that you have a permanent address where the police can contact you. The advantage you have though is that you will be welcome at a campsite, whereas your traveller will not.

Actually a lot of campsites seem to frown on self builds, & some also apparently have a no twin axle caravan rule....

 

[maureenandtom]

I believe the original essence of this discussion was that it is increasingly difficult to find a daytime parking space for a motorhome in the countryside and towns, let alone an overnighting spot. The topic seems to have morphed into the regular discussion about the availability of overnighting spots in towns, which is important but isn't the topic we started on, which is a problem for all motorhomers, whether wilders or not.

As you so often do, you have made me think. And this time you've jogged my memory a bit. Councils ban us overnighting - when we're no trouble to anyone - but often permit us through the day - when we could be a nuisance.

What came into my mind this afternoon - snoozing on Maureen's sofa - was that this is a silliness that has at least once been turned on its head. In the Calvados town of Dives sur Mer there are two officially signposed aires with services and one town centre car park with no services.

The town centre car park permits motrhomes overnight - actualy any time except between 7 am and 3 pm. Times when the car park would be needed for ordinary users but night-time for us. I took a picture at the time but can't find it so this one is from streeview and maybe yoj can make it out.

"Parcing aux camping cars interdit de 7H00 A 15H00"

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

I've used this picture a couple of times with a council but never once had a comment from them.

 

[maureenandtom]

But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations.

Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.

At a guess I'd imagine the average councillor when faced with requests from a disgruntled M/homer regarding parking provision
is probably thinking, I'm not biased or prejudiced against M/Homers but why the hell don't you just get a car or better stilll get on the bus like the other 95% out there, you're giving me a headache!"

Yes, I agree the golden years are in the past, particularly as applies
to this country, which is the reason I use my van much less here in the summer,
I bet I don't get one like for writing what I see as the unpalatable truth.

Forgive me a little because what you say is on the face of it, reasonable. What is unreasonable is that councils restrcit us on the basis of vague opinion. If any complaints are made to councillors then they should be and are recorded. If they are not recorded then it is unreasonable to use them to creat crimes. TROs do not create crimes. Byelaws do and there are many safeguards to councils being over-exuberant in their use of byelaws. We now have PSPOs and they do create crimes and there is little safeguard against council use of PSPOs.

I do not want crimes created on the basis of vague impressions. If there are complaints then let;s see them. Councils can never produce them and no crime should be created.

As to councils acting in the interests of motorhomes then there need be no special interest to act on. Just do not create unjust laws restricting us.. Helps with the budgets, too. No discrimination, no cost.

I have no quiblle with a TRO honestly created.

 

[antiquesam]

Actually a lot of campsites seem to frown on self builds, & some also apparently have a no twin axle caravan rule....

Strangely you don't see many travellers in self builds, but I believe the DVLA now want conversions to have two windows on one side and Motorhome decals, as well as the usual interior requirements to change the vehicle to a motorhome on registration document, so who will know its a self build?

 

[Fisherman]

But I don't necessarily think the council needs any formal public complaints to resist acting in the interests of Motorhomers in any respect including provision of parking what with todays budgetary constraints and other more important considerations.

Motorhomers demands are going to be at the bottom of the heap. I do really sense that there is a general overall feeling within a large percentage of the general population, and perhaps more so those in public service that it's a good idea not to actively encourage use of fossil fuelled vehicles, especially large leisure vehicles, mostly diesel propelled.

At a guess I'd imagine the average councillor when faced with requests from a disgruntled M/homer regarding parking provision
is probably thinking, I'm not biased or prejudiced against M/Homers but why the hell don't you just get a car or better stilll get on the bus like the other 95% out there, you're giving me a headache!"

Yes, I agree the golden years are in the past, particularly as applies
to this country, which is the reason I use my van much less here in the summer,
I bet I don't get one like for writing what I see as the unpalatable truth.

Acting in the interests of Motorhomers in most cases would involve no more than to stop putting up barriers and idiotic no overnight parking signage. This would actually save them money not cost them a penny. What would cost them would be the cost of removing said barriers and signage that has been put up unnecessarily.

We are not asking for additional carparks just to be able to use those that are already there. As for budgetary constraints prior to the implementation of the draconian road tax from sept 1 this year with an initial payment of £2135 followed by 5 years at £460 for the cleanest diesels ever made, Motorhomes and caravans contribution to our economy was £9.3 billion a year. (The average Motorhomes includes £9500 of vat ).

As for us contributing to global warming with our diesel guzzlers, well the average Motorhom mileage is just 2800 a year in the U.K. All traffic inc roads, rail and air amount to 14% of our CO2 emissions. Motorhomes about 0.25% of this. Heating our homes with gas amounts to the same amount as this at 14%. The pollution argument has no basis whatsoever.

Quite frankly there is no logic whatsoever to what is going on in this country. Much of it is based on ignorance, fear of travellers, and an unnecessary anxiety over health and safety.

Yes to date you are correct not one like, but I am sure that will change.
many thanks for your post daygoboy.[/QUOTE]

 

[trevskoda]

I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.

 

[daygoboy]

Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.

Unfortunately the authorities do think they're doing the right thing erecting barriers,
signage, etc. they're not all stupid numpties as some would believe, it's their solution
to a problem, often the traveller one...... and it's possibly the cheapest method to show they're
doing something proactively to their grumbling customers , often before the actual problem
manifests itself in their own jurisdiction

I don't know how you can differentiate between groups of people carrying out
a lifestyle, from those carrying out a leisure activity, without contravening ethnic, racial
discrimination Laws of some kind or another. One hat for all it has to be.

Thanx for the like Trev. lol

 

[Fisherman]

I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.

Ye I heard you have a larger than average driveway Trev.

 

[daygoboy]

I gave you one,no dirty replies please.
Im so lucky that there are few h/ restrictions in N Ireland and down south,a few yes but i can always find a place to park.
[/QUOTE

Few height restrictions ? If we get a no deal B****T they'll be putting
up height restrictions all over the place Trev., ready for the thousands of returnees.
So careful who you vote for in a few weeks time !

 

[maureenandtom]

Well all I can say, is in general the situation for Motorhomers deteriorates steadily over time,
so no matter how much Motorhomers pay for their hobby/pastime or how important
they think their contribution is to the economy, the facts speak for themselves.

Unfortunately the authorities do think they're doing the right thing erecting barriers,
signage, etc. they're not all stupid numpties as some would believe, it's their solution
to a problem, often the traveller one...... and it's possibly the cheapest method to show they're
doing something proactively to their grumbling customers , often before the actual problem
manifests itself in their own jurisdiction

I don't know how you can differentiate between groups of people carrying out
a lifestyle, from those carrying out a leisure activity, without contravening ethnic, racial
discrimination Laws of some kind or another. One hat for all it has to be.

Thanx for the like Trev. lol

My bold in your post above. The point I make is that there are no grumbling customers. Never has a council been able to point to any significant number of grumbles. Never. The nearest a council came was North Yorkshire (talking about Scarborough) where an Assistant Chief Execuive stated to MMM magazine that while there was no hard evidence of complaints her memory was clear that there was sufficient anecotal evidence. She thought this was enough to restrict freedoms of citizens. We are to depend on her memory of anecdotal, unrecorded complaints and this is sufficient to create crimes.

They have come close to finding grumbles in recent times. The PSPO legislation says that there must be public consultation before a PSPO is authorised. Councils routinely apply this requirement by offering a qeustionairre. In my opinion, and that of groups such as Liberty, the questioins can be, and are, loaded. An example; in Rother, the council asked the question something like: "Do you think motorhomes should be allowed to camp at the roadside for unlimited periods?" I think the required answer is clear.

I think we will see councils ceasing the use ofTROs to control us and will move to the easier production of PSPOs creating the crime of parking - a crime decriminalised by central goverment some years ago.

The caravan industry, of which we are part, makes an important conttribution to the economy. Ths report https://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk...-contributes-six-billion-pounds-to-uk-economy says we are part of the six billion pound contribution.