Incident at C&MC site Culloden Moor

[antiquesam]

Marie

exactly so.
Funnily enough I have just had a conversation with Swmbo about this thread and as she Is a housekeeper in the local NHS Hospital we were discussing the cleaning aspect at the campsites and feel many wardens who it seems do the cleaning as well are technically untrained in cleaning.Many are retirees who dont in theory need the money but enjoy the role(or did pre covid19)And It might seem that anyone could be a cleaner but believe it or not as in other jobs there are right ways and wrong ways to clean.As my wife does at the hospital one is supposed to have different buckets for different tasks including the cleaning cloths etc.So on those lines with #covid19 hanging over us are these campsite toilets and showers getting cleaned properly? probably not as surely these wardens would be anxious about catching the disease.So thats why they probably are quitting the role.
Regarding using campsite showers it seems Cornavirus Covid19 can hang around in the air through the steam from the shower.My wife who has just returned to work at the NHS Hospital has been banned from using a steamer to clean anything due to the steam potentially pushing the germ/virus around.

Moving on I think both clubs and non club campsites will struggle to employ Wardens to clean especially the older people who value their life more than money from a little retirement job

A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.

I think the biggest observation feedback my friend gave to me was the regime employed after training which can differ enormously between sites, training or no training. It's often very hard for 'managers' to follow up on how well staff are following their training/good practice procedures, unless they go onsite incognito/undercover to check for themselves. Some of the routines adopted by site manager were totally ludicrous, self-defeating or even side stepped good 'rules'. There also appears to be more than a fair share of 'little hitlerism' in the sector. This from someone who has worked sites for more than 15 years and has an excellent work ethic themselves....

A lot of people swing the lead given half a chance and don't always have the sort of work ethics you might wish for. Left to their own devices the rules are often relaxed/ignored/bent, especially when they are effectively appointed as the legitimate 'site managers' with no one to answer to, except perhaps an area manager who can't be visiting every site every day to check on working practices...

All down to whether individuals take a conscientious approach to their work, whatever the job (obviously applies across all industries, natch).

It also seems as though the C&MC is a 'top heavy' organisation with perhaps more managers than coal face workers? That will always cause operational problems...

 

[Penny13]

Many wardening jobs are underpaid and not a retirement option.

Being on the hard end of this this year my sympathies lie with the wardens not the public.

 

[SquirrellCook]

Many wardening jobs are underpaid and not a retirement option.

Being on the hard end of this this year my sympathies lie with the wardens not the public.

So minimum wage doesn't exist any more? Many people are not capable of working hard enough to cover it. Then other people bleat about high prices.

 

[brian c]

You say over 200 people a day using toilet. That I believe is one every 6 minutes if they only use it once a day . When do they have time to use clean it etc and if one or more people are abusing it then I can understand the management closing it for a while. Surprised that they actually reopened it. With Covid etc.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I see your point. It does seem like someone had a massive tantrum, instead of dealing with the situation in a calm and safe method for all.

You say over 200 people a day using toilet. That I believe is one every 6 minutes if they only use it once a day . When do they have time to use clean it etc and if one or more people are abusing it then I can understand the management closing it for a while. Surprised that they actually reopened it. With Covid etc.

So minimum wage doesn't exist any more? Many people are not capable of working hard enough to cover it. Then other people bleat about high prices.

My friends have been babysitting a C&MC site in the Midlands for the last month as sole wardens, covering for sickness/people quitting jobs.
They're just back up north now.

Quick telephone call I had with them this morning and they have been on the receiving end of some abuse from site visitors through no fault of their own.

They have told me that if the toilet block(s) at Bill's (@Fisherman) site were closed for that length of time, the wardens were probably instructed to do so by someone higher up in the line management as the club is trying it's best to keep in line with safety guidelines. As we're all hearing stories from other sectors about the public not following guidelines, this is not a unique situation right now.

They were abused by angry customers because the system of giving people wrist bands to use for the loos/showers is supposed to only allow 3 people in at any one time. You hang your wrist bands up outside to let everyone else know how many cubicles are currently occupied, but a lot of the time people were forgetting to collect their wrist bands on the way out, so it appeared cubicles were in use when they weren't. Also loads of people were ignoring the system and just using the shower/toilet blocks anyway.

And yes, they've has a similar incident to the wardens where Bill was, i.e. someone breaking into a cubicle that was marked as out of use, taking a dump and not bothering to flush. Could have been a lot worse mind....
Guess when you're desperate you just gotta go, ey?

Anyway, due to the last month's weird experience they're now of the very firm opinion that the club (and probably other campsites) should close the loos/showers completely and only allow vans on site that have their own onboard facilities, the most essential obviously being a toilet.

This whole thing with public toiletting facilities is a real bug bear because of covid right now. It's appears it's not that easy to keep on top of it....

Just sayin'

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Forgot to say that I thought the wages paid to my friends by the C&MC seemed OK, especially considering that all their own running costs while living on site are free. So, no gas/electric/water bills, use of all the washing facilities and usually a staff-only loo/shower/washing machine/clothes drier plus other perks depending which site you're at.

Apart from the running cost of their vehicles(s) - they're tuggers, not vanners - and buying food and personal essentials they have no other overheads and have lived for next to nothing for the last 15 years. Also, for the next 10 years or so (I think?) they can stay on any C&MC site for nothing and as often as they like. In fact they have mostly lived on sites in their caravan for free all year round for at least the last 10 years. If that isn't cheap living I don't know what is, but I guess it depends on how you view personal income/finances?

That's not bad going in my book, but I guess it does make a difference that one of them is a retiree with a good pension and doesn't need to work for the money. Just enjoys having something to keep him busy and meeting new people in his old age...

 

[landoboguy]

In the absence of not having installed a "covid" compliance officer to monitor and run the facilities, Id have closed the toilets/showers completely if people were abusing the facilities and safety of others. Assuming the excuse was true of course, and hoped the general concensus from most would be that the step was taken to protect all.
Similar in a way to when the governments locked down various countries, then Id lock down the bogs/site if i had to.

I am giving the people of this site one simple instruction "cross your legs and squeeze your scissors" stay van.

If you can't stay here safely dont stay here at all, would be my attitude. You see it all round the country people flouting the guidance.
Safety first, then Id worry about the refunds/leavers/moaners/ anyone who agrees with me later.

All the sites Ive been too since covid, I have used my own on board facilites exclusivley. As for those in tent sor without facilities, Im sorry, its a case of the few runing it for everyone.

Have I missed the content of the original letter you sent to complain ? I dont see it.
Id have probably binned it (or at least filed under "to do when things are back to normal") not trying to be rude, but sometimes there are more important issues than where to shower/wc if it is being abused.
oh and it was 18.5 hours, Ive told you a million times about exgageratting almost would be 22...23...23.5

 

[antiquesam]

In the absence of not having installed a "covid" compliance officer to monitor and run the facilities, Id have closed the toilets/showers completely if people were abusing the facilities and safety of others. Assuming the excuse was true of course, and hoped the general concensus from most would be that the step was taken to protect all.
Similar in a way to when the governments locked down various countries, then Id lock down the bogs/site if i had to.

I am giving the people of this site one simple instruction "cross your legs and squeeze your scissors" stay van.

If you can't stay here safely dont stay here at all, would be my attitude. You see it all round the country people flouting the guidance.
Safety first, then Id worry about the refunds/leavers/moaners/ anyone who agrees with me later.

All the sites Ive been too since covid, I have used my own on board facilites exclusivley. As for those in tent sor without facilities, Im sorry, its a case of the few runing it for everyone.

Have I missed the content of the original letter you sent to complain ? I dont see it.
Id have probably binned it (or at least filed under "to do when things are back to normal") not trying to be rude, but sometimes there are more important issues than where to shower/wc if it is being abused.
oh and it was 18.5 hours, Ive told you a million times about exgageratting almost would be 22...23...23.5

To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.
Your attitude of make everyone suffer for the odd offender is a bit like these despots who have, in the the not too distant past, shot everyone in a village for the sins of one person. We called that a war crime.
If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.

 

[mickymost]

To visit and pay for a stay on a site with facilities and not use them is your prerogative, but others may well feel that they wish to, or need to use them.

If you charge for a service you should endeavour to provide it or accept that you are breaking the terms of your contract and recompense those people.
We've stayed in two hotels since they've opened up and they explain in advance that your room will not be cleaned during your stay and that new towels will be left at the door and the dirty ones should be left in the bathroom. You know in advance and the choice is yours.

Mariesnowgoose Landoboguy and Antiquesam spot on

In normal times I would totally agree with you.At present we are living through this "Pandemic" Things change daily.Areas are getting locked and unlocked daily.Forever the news is reporting of somewhere where the "figures"are rising.So as you said going to a Hotel or B and B then hopefully you would be warned in advance of what to expect on your visit(I have no experience as have been no where since last year) So surely going to a campsite One would expect the same.One has the choice to go there.One is not forced to go there.So surely the "contract" is flexible and due to change regarding facilities on the campsite.I suppose to be fair they should alter the contracts to state this.I Imagine on the website (if the campsite has one)Covid19 and problems would be mentioned? Surely the two big clubs would have something in writing to warn visitors.If not then that is poor.
What I am saying is dont expect things to be normal whatever you are doing in this present climate THEN one cant be disappointed if things change!
And think of all those who have lost their lives GOD BLESS to them and not having a shower then becomes trivial and not worth getting annoyed over.Use your own facilities.If you have a van or tent without facilities then DONT GO simple.

 

[mickymost]

A couple I go walking with were wardens with the C&MC for some years and the impression I get from them is that cleaning was very high on the training programme and I have to say the size of the trolley they haul into the toilets gives the impression that they have an individual tool for each individual item.

All down to whether individuals take a conscientious approach to their work, whatever the job (obviously applies across all industries, natch).

So they have the training and a Trolley full of kit on a Cand MC site.What about independent sites do they have all the kit and training.A couple of years ago I stayed at Withernsea on the Parkdean resorts site.I was sited right next to the toilets.Due to being right next to the toilets and having a Campervan with only a small sink and no hot water We decided I would use the wash up sink to do the dishes being based on the wall just outside the toilets.While I was doing this a Lady cleaner was mopping the toilets floors then she came out and rinsed out her mop in the washing up sink next to me.This in theory is disgusting.I duly complained to management but it fell on deaf ears sadly.So do other Wardens do the job properly?Some must do.

As Marie says if left to their own devices and an area Manager just visiting weekly for instance I wonder how many are conscientious and do whats right.

 

[antiquesam]

So they have the training and a Trolley full of kit on a Cand MC site.What about independent sites do they have all the kit and training.A couple of years ago I stayed at Withernsea on the Parkdean resorts site.I was sited right next to the toilets.Due to being right next to the toilets and having a Campervan with only a small sink and no hot water We decided I would use the wash up sink to do the dishes being based on the wall just outside the toilets.While I was doing this a Lady cleaner was mopping the toilets floors then she came out and rinsed out her mop in the washing up sink next to me.This in theory is disgusting.I duly complained to management but it fell on deaf ears sadly.So do other Wardens do the job properly?Some must do.

As Marie says if left to their own devices and an area Manager just visiting weekly for instance I wonder how many are conscientious and do whats right.

I have no experience of independent sites. They seem expensive and run for the benefit of the owners. At least the club's pretend to operate for the members.

 

[antiquesam]

We moved to Portsmouth about five years after the Falklands War and viewed lots of houses, many of them were owned by matelots. Without exception they were in the middle of DIY projects that were half finished with the excuse that the War had slowed them down. How long will we have to endure poor service with the "pandemic" as an excuse? Every time something is wrong the excuse comes out. No eggs, the covid. No toilets, the covid. No driving licence renewel, the covid. I could go on, but my breakfast calls.

 

[jagmanx]

You have breakfast ? Lucky person. No breakfast..sorry Covid !

 

[st3v3]

a cubicle that was marked as out of use,

I've seen this in a pub, bonkers. There is a wall between the cubicles, so it would be fine to have both in use. Urinals, Yes an out of use one between two gives space, but it doesn't matter in a cubicle!

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I've seen this in a pub, bonkers. There is a wall between the cubicles, so it would be fine to have both in use. Urinals, Yes an out of use one between two gives space, but it doesn't matter in a cubicle!

That's because our modern day 'health and safety' culture is clashing with a virus that just runs a bulldozer through the whole pantomime.

All they're doing with these various 'rules' and 'guidelines' is trying to prevent the liquid from the smashed virus bottle running all over the place with primitive roadblocks.

It's damage limitation all the way, and interpretations and methods used to follow those 'guidelines' are fairly crude due to the complex nature of the problem. The fact that the 'guidelines' have had to be produced in a fairly short timescale also causes problems, as do individual approaches to adopting those guidelines. Also, how do you ever police every single place or person in the land to ensure they are complying (or not being stupidly over the top)?! It's simply impossible.

 

[Fisherman]

As I started this thread I feel I have to respond to some of the comments.
It seems that some have misread why I am perusing this matter.
This has little to do with who wishes to use facilities or those who chose not to.
That’s an entirely different t topic.

I can think of no other situation were someone charges you for something then advises you not to use it.
If the C&MC were really genuine about Covid safety they would close all toilet facilities and reduce prices. This would relieve the wardens of such a burden, make the camps safer, and avoid such issues.
But they want their cake and to eat it. By advising people not to use facilities suggests that they are unable to provide a safe environment for their use, so they should not be available or charged for in the first place. Also when organising any such system you should always take into account that some won’t follow the rules. Also how can reducing seven toilet facilities to just one create a safer Covid environment for those who have no choice but to use these facilities. This had nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with the C&MC wanting to maximise their income, whilst putting their wardens into an impossible situation, and risking the safety of their members. Quite frankly I don’t give a toss about any refund, that boat sailed long ago. As I stated on my initial post this is all about principles.
If the C&MC are really serious about Covid they should do the decent thing and close all toilet facilities which by virtue of the fact they recommend not using are indicating they may be unsafe for use. Clearly this is a case where they are putting profit before safety, their hypocrisy here knows no bounds. I would not wish to be a warden on one of their sites right now being placed in this impossible position.

No more from me on this issue.

 

[Sharon the Cat]

Recently seen in a pub in Emsworth. They were so officious & over the top when we went in I wouldn't bother again but this really made me laugh. The courtyard gents had been turned into a unisex loo with 2 stalls appropriately marked. A very good idea to stop people having to walk through the pub but I can imagine the games some guys would play with this after a few too many beers!

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I agree with @Fisherman.

The C&MC club need to get their act together on this one re what to charge and what facilities to open in the current circumstances.

I would wager that one of the biggest problems they are currently having to deal with, on top of the virus, are staff shortages (wardens).

I would also wager that the head office management are pretty remote from the 'sharp end' during 'normal' times, so a situation like this is always going to cause a whole raft of new problems for them. It's caused major headaches even for businesses that are savvy and more in touch with what they're supposed to be doing.

Definitely a touch of the 'ivory towers' about the club management, or so I'm told by those who know.

 

[st3v3]

Recently seen in a pub in Emsworth. They were so officious & over the top when we went in I wouldn't bother again but this really made me laugh. The courtyard gents had been turned into a unisex loo with 2 stalls appropriately marked. A very good idea to stop people having to walk through the pub but I can imagine the games some guys would play with this after a few too many beers!

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Target practice!