Filling UK gas bottle in Europe

so it must be ok to fill gas bottles .they are just about all designed to be refilled . i dont see throw awayable gas cylinders other than the very small ones. and not all tanks have 80percent fill turn offs .i have a car tank here with out, and a big 1200ltr tank with out.
seems to me most think gaslow are the ultimate but they are the new boys on the street . others have been selling refillable bottles for years . we had lpg powered cars years ago. my first one was in 74, fell out of favour in the late 70,s as diesel cars got better. non of it is new. english china clay down here had an enormous fleet of vehicles running gas.
compressed natural gas is the way forward .very big in china. there are quite a few here as well.shame uk is so far behind.
mind china as lorries and buses running on electric ,we dont seem to be able to get it together.
 
so it must be ok to fill gas bottles .they are just about all designed to be refilled . i dont see throw awayable gas cylinders other than the very small ones. and not all tanks have 80percent fill turn offs .i have a car tank here with out, and a big 1200ltr tank with out.
seems to me most think gaslow are the ultimate but they are the new boys on the street . others have been selling refillable bottles for years . we had lpg powered cars years ago. my first one was in 74, fell out of favour in the late 70,s as diesel cars got better. non of it is new. english china clay down here had an enormous fleet of vehicles running gas.
compressed natural gas is the way forward .very big in china. there are quite a few here as well.shame uk is so far behind.
mind china as lorries and buses running on electric ,we dont seem to be able to get it together.

I'm not sure but I think the 80% cut-off is critical as far as the HSE is concerned (I'm confident on legal matters but not technical ones!) which is why cylinders such as Gaslow (and I used them simply as an example not as the only deal in town) are considered ok and others not. But if I'm wrong I am sure someone will come along and say so!
 
john if you ever get down here visit me. i have a big gas tank here with out an 80percent cut off its in my front garden and gets filled regularly by a well known gas company. i have a lpg kit taken from a car also no 80percent cut off. how are normal bottles filled if hse says you cant fill them. thousands are filled every day in this country alone. yes care and attention is required . ask most travellers we have all seen the turkish greek gas bottles being filled by a man smoking a fag. its laughable .
 
Tony, If we start eg with an empty bottle at atmospheric pressure then attach filler hose sealed at the filler neck and pump in a compressed liquified gas then as the bottle fills, the void above (the liquid air/gas mix) will become progressively compressed as the bottle fills until such time as the pressure creates a back pressure sufficient to operate the predetermined cutoff limit 4bar/10bar. This wil leave an expansion space? Of course not necessarily 20%.
Or am I missing something?
 
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E = MC squared stumped me, string theory is well over my head so my logic may well not be perfect but if you put 8kg in a 10kg pot is that not an 80% fill. If so with a little bit of common sence - what we getting heated about.

Richard
 
Tony, If we start eg with an empty bottle at atmospheric pressure then attach filler hose sealed at the filler neck and pump in a compressed liquified gas then as the bottle fills, the void above (the liquid air/gas mix) will become progressively compressed as the bottle fills until such time as the pressure creates a back pressure sufficient to operate the predetermined cutoff limit 4bar/10bar. This wil leave an expansion space? Of course not necessarily 20%.
Or am I missing something?
Yes, good point that describes what we expect to happen

Problem arises because if you apply enough pressure, any gas will liquify - the pressure required being a function of temperature.

For instance, propane at 70F takes 110psi to liquefy it and Butane takes only 20psi.

So if you start with a bottle full of propane gas and pump liquid propane into it using a pump with a pressure capability of over 110 psi, then what you say is correct to a certain point when the pressure inside the cylinder reaches more than 110psi, the gas inside starts to liquefy. This process can continue until the cylinder is hydraulically full of liquid and all the gas has liquefied. Note that this pressureis way below the claimed maximum pressure of the delivery pumps and for Butane, the discrepancy is even greater.
Theory of partial pressures is a little more complex than that, but it comes down to gases obeying gas laws only up to the point where they liquefy, after which what we think is intuitive behavior no longer applies. So the pump - pumping capability of 10 bar - 147psi - won't shut off until the bottle is full of liquid (I think the 4 bar was in relation to DIY tyre filling machines with lock-on chucks) Commercial fillers of portable bottles use weight and/or fluid measure to refill bottles while leaving a safe margin. In Australia the small scale refillers use the bleed valve to manually fill until liquid starts spurting out. This gives us 9.5kg. Big swap and go refillers using weight and volume only fill to 9kg to allow a bit more safety margin against overfilling. Fred Nurk just isn't allowed to do the job himself.

(we use the converse of this process when we use the gas because at a given temperature, the liquid keeps evaporating as we draw the gas off to keep the pressure at the same value until every last bit of liquid has evaporated, after which the contents of the tank DO does obey the gas laws. This is why the so called gas level gauges that are actually pressure gauges don't do much more than tell you that the gas has all but run out, especially at low ambient temperatures.

BTW, petrol behaves in a similar manner (even though it is composed of perhaps 20 different compounds each with different characteristics) and those of us who use the newer plastic containers are often tempted to relieve the pressure (which can be up to 12psi) when they puff up on a hot day. Trouble is within seconds, they have puffed up again so the choice is to accept that the containers really are designed for it, or leave the lid cracked open enough so it doesn't puff up - BUT does create a very dangerous situation around it and will eventually lead to an empty container.


Many French and German filling stations have very clear notices about filling portable bottles being verboten or interdict and many countries - eg Australia and the US do have laws as to who can fill bottles using what equipment so it isn't such a free-for-all as some might hope.
 
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You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!
 
E = MC squared stumped me, string theory is well over my head so my logic may well not be perfect but if you put 8kg in a 10kg pot is that not an 80% fill. If so with a little bit of common sence - what we getting heated about.

Richard

Everybodies getting heated with gas. E=MC2 thats easy , we're trying to crack Reimanns Hypothesis and I think on this thread we've just about cracked it.
$1,000,000 prize.
 
You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!
It also assumes that there is 'air' in the bottle!

There will be air in a brand new bottle which has yet to be filled, once it has been filled and the initial mix of air and propane or butane gas has been exhausted it will contain only propane or butane gas.

AndyC
 
You say start with a full bottle, I'm saying start with an empty bottle containing say air at atmos. press. then as the pump fills LPG @ say 110psi ie it will be liquid in the bottle as soon as the pressure in the bottle reaches 110psi but the air in the bottle will remain a gas @110psi the pump will then shutoff.
This assumes of course that there is no bleed off, which is why I said "sealed filler"as would be the case at self service fill points,at least I hope so!

I say start with a bottle full of GAS - as in Propane gas - because this is what the normal situation is.

Yes, what you say would apply ONLY for a first fill of a brand-new unpurged tank, but that is a very special case that would give very unpredictable safety margin and it doesn't apply in a general case anyway.

The presence of air in a bottle IS a problem in liquid delivery systems (for LPG powered vehicles) because as you say, it doesn't liquefy and it prevents the bottle from being filled to its proper capacity. Normally, these are purged of air prior to first fill by pulling a vacuum and then filling with LPG. However, for gas delivery systems like we use, there isn't likely to be any air left in the tank after the first fill because it will be bled out the top of the tank as soon as the valve is opened (makes getting a fridge or water heater pilot light to stay lit a very long process). Once the initial volume of air bleeds off first, there will only be propane/butane left in the tank and when the tank is refilled, this will liquefy once the pressure rises above the vapour pressure at whatever the temperature is at the time.

If you are filling the tank with Butane and the temperature is a few degrees below zero, you don't need a pump at all and could theoretically pour it in using a funnel, so completely filling a bottle with liquid isn't just a hypothetical situation - and once it is full, and the valve shut, you then rely on the safety valve if fitted (and even then, while it may prevent the bottle from rupturing, opening the car door on an interior full of a perfect propane-air explosive mixture isn't real safe either. Plumber in Sydney died a few years ago from just this situation.

I'm curious. Am I the only one to admit to being distracted when filling a bucket or fuel can or siphoning fuel into a can or whatever, and having it overflow. Water or petrol on the ground is pretty obvious and you take appropriate precautions, but a hydraulically-full LPG bottle looks no more dangerous than a properly-filled one, but in fact is a bomb waiting to cause major damage or injury.

-------------------------

Someone made the point that anything not specifically prohibited, was therefore permitted - so why would it be illegal to use an adaptor to fill a portable bottle. I don't think this is a true reflection of how our society operates anyway, but my assumption is that gas, like electricity and vehicle components - and even city water supplies, is normally very tightly regulated and only tested and approved appliances, fittings and components may be used - and often, only installed by authorised people. If these refilling adaptors do come under any such regulation then it is a case that anything not specifically approved is prohibited and there may be a further requirement that the operation must only be performed by trained and authorised people.
 
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john if you ever get down here visit me. i have a big gas tank here with out an 80percent cut off its in my front garden and gets filled regularly by a well known gas company. i have a lpg kit taken from a car also no 80percent cut off. how are normal bottles filled if hse says you cant fill them. thousands are filled every day in this country alone. yes care and attention is required . ask most travellers we have all seen the turkish greek gas bottles being filled by a man smoking a fag. its laughable .

As I said before, the science of all this is beyond me so I tend to play safe. The HSE refers to cylinders with the appropriate markings (whatever they are). It may not make sense scientifically but the rules of the HSE over-ride logic when it comes to closing down filling stations or invalidating insurance claims and I for one would rather have a cheque from the insurance company if something went wrong than nothing other than a belief that the HSE didn't know what it was talking about. Having said that, I too have bought those Turkish/Greek bottles in the past! Necessity makes fools of us all.
 
Tony as you say my example is is not really a situation in the practical sense, ie as applies to the everyday M/Homer.
Although if you wanted to to be as near safe as would be practicable this would be a way of filling a "non refillable bottle" ie before refilling, purge the bottle and let air in by leaving valve open, and then check with gas detector.
VWallen says that the term "non refillable bottle" is a misnomer because they are factory refilled as a matter of course, but I wonder what procedure they apply, I suspect they purge and create a vacuum, and not just fill and weigh, after all they must know that some bottles are returned with incorrect contents by self fillers.
Yes of course if you have Butane @ a few degrees below freezing you'll just be able to pour as a liquid,.... just as we do with petrol within a wide temp. range.
 
byronic ,I have watched the filling process more than once
it used to be that in alicante gas factory the lpg pump was inside the premises and to fill your vehicle you were allowed to drive through as the pump was at the rear , so I was a regular visitor

so you were able to watch the operatives filling the bottles ..process as follows

'empty' bottles taken off truck in racks , placed beside filling line , placed on conveyor which runs it under the filling head ; this is pushed onto the bottle to create a gas tight seal [ foot actuated if I remember correctly ] , nothing screwed on of course ! operative pumped in the appropriate amount of gas [ I presume he read the tare marked on each bottle ]; the process was so rapid that I queried how they knew no bottles were underfilled and was told they give an extra squirt just to be sure , it's not an exact measure

examination of bottles , purging ? you cannot be serious ...I suppose the guy who takes them out of the racks has a glance for obvious damage , but no more than that

I have also been in a calor filling station in the uk [ the laboratory where I worked was almost next door ], but that was many years ago and the filling head must have been different due to the valve profile

I have also seen on in france , very similar system , but I can't pretend I paid close attention

actually I have read somewhere on one of these forums that calor state they fill butane bottles to something like 85% , which is logical if you apply boyles law , the pressure will be lower than propane at a given volume /temperature in an equal container
 
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Is there anyone who can point to regulations or approvals that would indicate that using these adaptors to refill exchange bottles on the forecourt of a filling station is either legal or safe.? This topic comes up regularly and the first or last sentence of the OP is invariably "Yes, I know this is illegal/dangerous/stupid etc etc ... but ...."

As for belittling someone who pretends to know what he is talking about by advocating this practise on an open forum when he also hasn't a clue about the level of experience, or competence or commonsense of the OP - I would be surprised if this forum didn't have rules against members who give advice without considering their duty of care. Do no harm is the safest course of action.
Tony

I think somebody else said that the onus is on the authorities to make a practise illegal if it is unsafe. I would add that many things are unsafe like driving on the roads. How many people are killed every day doing that. A practise you carry out regularly?

I have a lantern and a heater which mount directly onto a cylinder of camping gas. Which do you think is more dangerous them or a hose.

I look on this forum as a great source of information. It can only remain so if members can ask question or voice opinions without fear of ridicule.

Richard
 
hi. having been around gas depots as a driver .i see them just look, open. fill. they get filled so quick its hard to imagine all the fuss on these sites. as for butane /propane. does it really matter if its mixed in small amounts . i dont think so. remember the gases arent pure exactly .auto gas is a mix. some of the camping gases are a mix as they work in cold climates . in morocco a high blend of pentane is used as this evaporates easier in warm climates .remember also that you dont have to have a degree in anything to get a job filling bottles. its not a hard or difficult thing to do. as i have said before lpg pumps are available to help in the filling of bottles and calor still i think will supply you with a system to fill your vehicles /bottles. lots of places have their own gas filling point. it can be dangerous but come on its not really complicated . we can think up all sorts of complications but visit a gas bottle station then you will see how they do it. most companies will let you if you ask nicely.
 
Alan it may well be a simple thing to fill a gas bottle but we were discussing the the science (without being pretentious) of how gases behave under pressure etc. As Lebesset writes, that in the filling depot they fill by weight but if the operative decides to have a smoke and the bottle gets filled to capacity then I would think a back pressure safety shutoff would operate, the bottle could then be bled off to 80/85%. Perhaps this would be automatically carried out in the fill valve by an overfill return valve, I don't know,but 2 safety measures.
Now as I see it when you use an LPG pump at a public garage to fill a "non refillable" bottle should you accidently fill the bottle 100% then the pump back pressure cutoff would operate and any overpressure would return via a relief at the fill valve? You would then have to bleed off 15%, presuming of course that you have remembered to weigh the bottle and realised that you have overfilled. The thing is you have only one safety measure ie the overfill shutoff.
When you fill a refillable bottle you have the additional safety measure of an integral shutoff valve in the bottle that you can't forget as you might forget your trusty scales. Crossing the road can be dangerous and if you get it wrong you'll probably just take yourself out. If you get your refill wrong you may take out the neighourhood.
 
It can only remain so if members can ask question or voice opinions without fear of ridicule.

Agreed - as Byronic and others have done, BUT there are always members who will make pronouncements about the safety of something using scientifically-indefensible statements to do so. The first type are after information or clarification and will invariably get questions answered, and/or enjoy the discussion that follows. The second type don't want to know anything because they already know it all so don't deserve the same courtesies as the first group. They are dangerous people.

Lots of topics on these sort of forums don't involve any degree of personal or property safety so it doesn't matter so much if someone give wrong information and another takes it, but in certain technical matters, giving wrong or improperly clarified advice to the public at large can put someone in danger and that is the sort of thing none of us should take any risks with - especially since it is quite easy to check one's own understanding by doing some basic research on the internet before advising on safety-related posts here.

BTW Thread: Filling UK gas bottle in Europe
- so we should be addressing the situation applying in the whole of Europe, not just the blurry situation that applies to the UK
 
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that said the only differance is the adaptor you use to fill the bottle from the pump. nothing else changes .where ever you are .fill from empty and dont be distracted . use the kg wt and x2 for litres .
 
byronic , I ran lpg powered vehicles for more than 20 years

3 times I had the safety valves fail and ended up filling tanks [ much bigger than gas bottles ] to probably 95% ; of course the tanks don't fail as they are still well within their design parameters , and as vehicles use a liquid pick up you can quicky use up the excess without any great danger , just don't leave the vehicle in the sun like that !

but gas bottles for cooking /heating etc are a different matter ; the thought of relying on so called safety valves in a bottle alarms me , liquid up the pipe would not be funny!

so no way would I use such a device ....I stick with the methodology of the gas bottle filling stations , empty bottle , measured fill ; 100% safe ? perhaps not , but neither is getting out of bed

to people who ask me about buying bottle with 80% valves I always give the same answer ...go ahead , but when you use them run them empty and put in a measured amount from the pump , ignore the 80% valve unless it stops you below that [ they are not accurate ] ; there are also heavy ends , but that is the subject of a different discussion !
 
Agreed - as Byronic and others have done, BUT there are always members who will make pronouncements about the safety of something using scientifically-indefensible statements to do so. The first type are after information or clarification and will invariably get questions answered, and/or enjoy the discussion that follows. The second type don't want to know anything because they already know it all so don't deserve the same courtesies as the first group. They are dangerous people.

Lots of topics on these sort of forums don't involve any degree of personal or property safety so it doesn't matter so much if someone give wrong information and another takes it, but in certain technical matters, giving wrong or improperly clarified advice to the public at large can put someone in danger and that is the sort of thing none of us should take any risks with - especially since it is quite easy to check one's own understanding by doing some basic research on the internet before advising on safety-related posts here.

BTW Thread: Filling UK gas bottle in Europe
- so we should be addressing the situation applying in the whole of Europe, not just the blurry situation that applies to the UK

That I can agree with but its one thing to say "You are a Plonker" and a very diffferent thing to say "please check your facts" even if they cleary are a Plonker:)
 

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