Fiat stop start

[Okta]

I think I have lost track somewhere but what has B2B to do with stop start?

 

[Sharpie]

Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.

This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.

I very rarely leave it switched on except around town and e.g. queuing traffic in jams. And if the oil temperature is below 80C I turn it off. At least I have a button to do that. Never mind the hesitation if say waiting at a junction or roundabout. At least on mine you can override it by holding the car on the brakes, but put it into neutral and handbrake on as you should, the engine stops. Progress ?

Mos SS systems will also disable it until the engine coolant is up to temperature, but with modern engines that can be well before the oil is even warm. It's more to do with keeping the engine running at the right temperature and the heater still working. Leaving the oil temperature to look after itself (works best when hot).

Google e.g. "stop start bearing shell" to learn a little about how much development has been necessary to even get them to the point where they can cope with continuous town driving conditions without conking out within the warranty period.

As with DPFs.

If your driving is mostly the open road, no worries.

 

[Bob L]

Has anyone figured how to turn off stop-start on Fiats new auto transmission vans?

Button with an “A” next to fog light buttons. That’s on my new MH,manual.

 

[Fisherman]

Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.

This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.

I very rarely leave it switched on except around town and e.g. queuing traffic in jams. And if the oil temperature is below 80C I turn it off. At least I have a button to do that. Never mind the hesitation if say waiting at a junction or roundabout. At least on mine you can override it by holding the car on the brakes, but put it into neutral and handbrake on as you should, the engine stops. Progress ?

Mos SS systems will also disable it until the engine coolant is up to temperature, but with modern engines that can be well before the oil is even warm. It's more to do with keeping the engine running at the right temperature and the heater still working. Leaving the oil temperature to look after itself (works best when hot).

Google e.g. "stop start bearing shell" to learn a little about how much development has been necessary to even get them to the point where they can cope with continuous town driving conditions without conking out within the warranty period.

As with DPFs.

If your driving is mostly the open road, no worries.

Possibly your system is different from mine sharpie, but on Mercs it does not come on until your engine is fully heated, and I have never found any delay at junctions when pulling away. It won’t even come on if the temperature inside the car that is set has not been achieved. I n traffic jams it’s ineffective because it will only come on I think 5 times and it’s time limited.

 

[Okta]

On my Audi the engine will restart if I slightly ease the pressure on the brake pedal, without fully releasing the brakes. This means that when the lights start to change or a gap in the traffic is approaching you can anticipate the opportunity and be ready for it.

 

[in h]

I think I have lost track somewhere but what has B2B to do with stop start?

Vehicles with stop start engines also use the alternator differently. They have what is laughingly called a "Smart Alternator". When the vehicle is decelerating, the alternator whacks out a huge current to help slow the vehicle, so in between times the engine battery is left less fully charged, lower voltage to leave space for that. This isn't a problem: the stop-stsrt batteries are built for this sort of treatment.
If the habitation battery is connected to the engine battery with a SCR or VDR, the hab battery suffers from this same helter skelter of voltage. Even if it doesn't damage the hab battery, it'll prevent it ever being properly charged.
So you need a B2B charger if you have a smart alternator.

 

[trevskoda]

I think that the starter pinion and ring are permanently engaged?

No its not,as not in oil bath and can you see a starter whizzing round at 4000rpm for miles.

 

[trevskoda]

Stop-start durability is not so much the starter motor/battery/alternator issues which I think are now mostly a none-issue, it's more that every time you stop start the engine bearings run for a few seconds with no oil pressure.

This has required a lot of development in bearing shell materials, oil formulations and viscosities to make them sufficiently durable to get anywhere near to what we were used to prior to this.

I very rarely leave it switched on except around town and e.g. queuing traffic in jams. And if the oil temperature is below 80C I turn it off. At least I have a button to do that. Never mind the hesitation if say waiting at a junction or roundabout. At least on mine you can override it by holding the car on the brakes, but put it into neutral and handbrake on as you should, the engine stops. Progress ?

Mos SS systems will also disable it until the engine coolant is up to temperature, but with modern engines that can be well before the oil is even warm. It's more to do with keeping the engine running at the right temperature and the heater still working. Leaving the oil temperature to look after itself (works best when hot).

Google e.g. "stop start bearing shell" to learn a little about how much development has been necessary to even get them to the point where they can cope with continuous town driving conditions without conking out within the warranty period.

As with DPFs.

If your driving is mostly the open road, no worries.

So you are now wearing the clutch release bearing and diaphram out rather than the starter ring or starter ,so g box out again.

 

[Okta]

Vehicles with stop start engines also use the alternator differently. They have what is laughingly called a "Smart Alternator". When the vehicle is decelerating, the alternator whacks out a huge current to help slow the vehicle, so in between times the engine battery is left less fully charged, lower voltage to leave space for that. This isn't a problem: the stop-stsrt batteries are built for this sort of treatment.
If the habitation battery is connected to the engine battery with a SCR or VDR, the hab battery suffers from this same helter skelter of voltage. Even if it doesn't damage the hab battery, it'll prevent it ever being properly charged.
So you need a B2B charger if you have a smart alternator.

Thanks, I know about smart alternators I had one on my last motorhome but not stop start. I also have a b2b but I hadn’t linked the stop start to always having a smart alternator.

 

[in h]

So you are now wearing the clutch release bearing and diaphram out rather than the starter ring or starter ,so g box out again.

Stop start adds no wear to the clutch, though I doubt that many cars with a clutch are still sold. I assume most are automatic.

 

[Okta]

Lots of automatics now have clutches including the DSG box that has 2.

 

[in h]

Lots of automatics now have clutches including the DSG box that has 2.

How would stop-start make a difference? And those clutches don't have release bearings anyway

 

[Okta]

How would stop-start make a difference? And those clutches don't have release bearings anyway

I was just answering your point that most cars are now auto and that not many cars are sold with clutches. Others have suggested that stop start affects clutches though I know not all agree.

 

[Sharpie]

I was just answering your point that most cars are now auto and that not many cars are sold with clutches. Others have suggested that stop start affects clutches though I know not all agree.

I think that you are probably quite wrong about "most cars are now auto". Any evidence for that ? And even things that you might consider automatic are mostly robotised manual gearboxes with clutches (and release bearings), or the very nice VW-invented DSG system, we have one in the family, basically two three-speed manual transmissions, two (oil bathed) clutches that are likely to last forever, and a very very very complex "mechatronic" unit to control everything. That requires a very expensive oil change, frequently to keep it working. Latterly they've been making 7 speed DSGs with dry clutches, but frankly they are not on a par with the original and I don't expect them to last.

No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.

Or you could have some sort of CVT thing, like I think Nissan and Subaru still make, like an old Daf rubber band job, or scooter, but with improved materials and steel chain/belts

A brother even had a mad, bad and dangerous ScoobyDo Forester that started at I think 280 Hp but got tweaked to nearer 350. All put through the standard CVT transmission. Amazing. However it died an early death, as you might imagine (actually three big smash ups, nobody else involved, insurers got fed up as did his wife, so it went. So as to long term durability I wouldn't know, but the Subaru engineering really impressed me.

So if Subaru would make campers I'd be first in line. A flat-four or flat-six diesel (they make these unique things), could be so special.



As for TrevSkoda's comment about me wearing out the clutch release bearing, I think that he has failed to understand how the stop=start works on VAG cars (a Seat in my case).

If I drive correctly, as I was taught, pull up at a junction or roundabout, apply handbrake, move (manual) gearbox into neutral, release clutch, then engine dies. Unless I have disabled the useless feature, it's second nature to push the button every time I twist the key to get started. I mean, that's why the disable buttons are provided, at least for now.

If instead I pull up at junction/roundabout, but instead of applying the handbrake properly, just stand on the brake pedal, keep dazzling the people behind me with the brake lights, slip into neutral, engine keeps running.

But this is a really poor way to drive, if e.g somebody shunted me from behind chances are my foot would come off the brake pedal and I'd then be shunted into the vehicle in front.

Engine is a lovely little 1.4 petrol that runs a massive turbocharger that boosts to an impressive level, at least 150 hp, much of the time half the engine is turned off, inlet valves on two cylinders don't open, there is maybe a litre or two of coolant so the block (not the oil) warms up PDQ. As soon as it is warm the stop-start switches on. I won't let it until the oil temperature is at least 80 C.

Never mind the crank and cam bearings, the turbo, which runs continuously at a massive boost, is running dry, no pressure, every stop-start. Amazing that we've got to 80,000 miles so far (but stop-start is automatically turned off, it's just an automatic reflex).

Will it get to 250,000 miles like the previous one ? well I doubt it, but it it is very very economical, goes like stink, weighs very little, handling is so much lighter and better.

But I do miss the snarl of my old VW GTi 1.8 and 2.0 16 valve engines. They were glorious, and also quite economical.

 

[mark61]

I think we are up to about 40% of new cars being auto, that's all types of auto's. Perhaps commercials will catch up in another 10 years.

 

[colinm]

or the very nice VW-invented DSG system,

When did Borg Warner become part of VW?

That aside, the latest Suzi's have a interesting 'stop start' system, they have a electric motor which keeps the engine turning at tickover, they also have no 12v battery.

 

[Nabsim]

....
No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.
.....

That’s a bit of a presumption in itself but you did add perhaps to mitigate it. Every vehicle I have ever owned has been automatic or semi auto except for motorcycles. I can assure you though that I did learn to drive properly and can certainly anticipate gear changes

I have no problem at all with my left leg but seem to have misplaced my right one, the police back in the 70’s took exception to me driving manual cars on the road using a walking stick for the clutch and insurance company’s at that time ensured I wouldn’t fit hand controls. To drive a standard automatic (full auto with torque converter) after passing a standard automatic driving test I had to pay 25% more insurance than an ‘able bodied’ person did. That continued until the disability discrimination act came into force (was it late 90’s?).

This is meant to be a light hearted post but please don’t make any assumptions on someone’s driving abilities by the type of gearbox they use

 

[Okta]

I think that you are probably quite wrong about "most cars are now auto". Any evidence for that ? And even things that you might consider automatic are mostly robotised manual gearboxes with clutches (and release bearings), or the very nice VW-invented DSG system, we have one in the family, basically two three-speed manual transmissions, two (oil bathed) clutches that are likely to last forever, and a very very very complex "mechatronic" unit to control everything. That requires a very expensive oil change, frequently to keep it working. Latterly they've been making 7 speed DSGs with dry clutches, but frankly they are not on a par with the original and I don't expect them to last.

No more than I would expect say a Fiat "comfortmatic" robotised manual box to last any better than a plain manual thing., used properly. Same bits inside, but simplified for people who perhaps never learned to drive properly, anticipate when to change up or down, understand the torque curve of their engine, either just listen to the engine or scan the rev counter to be aware of where things are operating, or perhaps have become de-skilled, or were never much good, or just lazy, or have a genuine physical condition that prevents them from using their left leg to push on the clutch pedal.

Or you could have some sort of CVT thing, like I think Nissan and Subaru still make, like an old Daf rubber band job, or scooter, but with improved materials and steel chain/belts

A brother even had a mad, bad and dangerous ScoobyDo Forester that started at I think 280 Hp but got tweaked to nearer 350. All put through the standard CVT transmission. Amazing. However it died an early death, as you might imagine (actually three big smash ups, nobody else involved, insurers got fed up as did his wife, so it went. So as to long term durability I wouldn't know, but the Subaru engineering really impressed me.

So if Subaru would make campers I'd be first in line. A flat-four or flat-six diesel (they make these unique things), could be so special.



As for TrevSkoda's comment about me wearing out the clutch release bearing, I think that he has failed to understand how the stop=start works on VAG cars (a Seat in my case).

If I drive correctly, as I was taught, pull up at a junction or roundabout, apply handbrake, move (manual) gearbox into neutral, release clutch, then engine dies. Unless I have disabled the useless feature, it's second nature to push the button every time I twist the key to get started. I mean, that's why the disable buttons are provided, at least for now.

If instead I pull up at junction/roundabout, but instead of applying the handbrake properly, just stand on the brake pedal, keep dazzling the people behind me with the brake lights, slip into neutral, engine keeps running.

But this is a really poor way to drive, if e.g somebody shunted me from behind chances are my foot would come off the brake pedal and I'd then be shunted into the vehicle in front.

Engine is a lovely little 1.4 petrol that runs a massive turbocharger that boosts to an impressive level, at least 150 hp, much of the time half the engine is turned off, inlet valves on two cylinders don't open, there is maybe a litre or two of coolant so the block (not the oil) warms up PDQ. As soon as it is warm the stop-start switches on. I won't let it until the oil temperature is at least 80 C.

Never mind the crank and cam bearings, the turbo, which runs continuously at a massive boost, is running dry, no pressure, every stop-start. Amazing that we've got to 80,000 miles so far (but stop-start is automatically turned off, it's just an automatic reflex).

Will it get to 250,000 miles like the previous one ? well I doubt it, but it it is very very economical, goes like stink, weighs very little, handling is so much lighter and better.

But I do miss the snarl of my old VW GTi 1.8 and 2.0 16 valve engines. They were glorious, and also quite economical.

It wasn’t me that said “most cars are now auto” I was responding to that opinion expressed in an earlier posting by someone else.

 

[harrow]

That’s a bit of a presumption in itself but you did add perhaps to mitigate it. Every vehicle I have ever owned has been automatic or semi auto except for motorcycles. I can assure you though that I did learn to drive properly and can certainly anticipate gear changes

I have no problem at all with my left leg but seem to have misplaced my right one, the police back in the 70’s took exception to me driving manual cars on the road using a walking stick for the clutch and insurance company’s at that time ensured I wouldn’t fit hand controls. To drive a standard automatic (full auto with torque converter) after passing a standard automatic driving test I had to pay 25% more insurance than an ‘able bodied’ person did. That continued until the disability discrimination act came into force (was it late 90’s?).

This is meant to be a light hearted post but please don’t make any assumptions on someone’s driving abilities by the type of gearbox they use

Douglas Bader still did a good job !

 

[Glass man]

My father's 1935 Rover had a version of this. If you stopped the warm engine for a short time you could start it my pushing a button that gave a single spark to start the engine. No starter motor involved.
It stopped with one cylinder read.
Nothing new.