Electrics / Leisure battery problem

hairydog said:
No, my comments about euro5 and euro6 only apply to newer vans. I misread 54 reg as 64 reg.
If you have a multimeter, the rhing to do is check the vattery voltage at the battery terminals, not anywhere else, to be sure you're getting a true reading.
As you have a solar panel, only check after dark to be sure that isnt interfering.
Battery voltage rises as it being charged. If there is no load, it wil take up to 18 hours to drop back to its natural "charge state" voltage.
Battery voltage drops under load, and similarly take many hours to restabilise.
This means that you can't assess the state of charge of your battery from its voltage when in service.
The voltage tells you something different! In the dark (or after taking the fuse out of the solar controller), measure the voltage. Then start the engine and watch to seewhat happens to the voltage. It should rise over a while till it reaches a bit over 14v, but I doubt that will happen with a split charging system. They only charge at 15A or less, so it will take several hours to fill the battery. You probably don't drive for that long at a stretch - I know I don't!
But knowing the voltage it reaches after 20 minutes or so gives a little more info.
Then after you switch the engine off, the voltage will fall back to something between 12v and 13v. How fast and how far it falls tells us some more.
Another test you should do is to use the ammeter in the multimeter to measure what current is flowing out of the leisure battery with the fridge off, and also with it on. You'll need to remove a connection from the battery to measure that, wiring the meter in series between the battery and its connection.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, very useful. I've actually been taking readings at intervals since this morning, with the fridge switched on, as suggested by Fazerloz. I appreciate what you say about the solar panel; the reading at 11 am was 12.57 and by 5 pm it had gone up gradually to 13.15. Also there has been quite a bit of sun today. This still puzzles me a bit though; I would have thought the fridge would be drawing more off than the solar panel is putting in; it may just be I'm not understanding this correctly. I'm going to carry on taking readings until late, as you say that will more useful. Also the pattern tends to be that it holds charge not too badly until dark and then drops quite rapidly, so that by bed-time the fridge has stopped working.

I'll also do the other tests you suggest and take readings.
 
HI conroy

I presume this a wet lead / acid battery, a test of the specific gravity would give some indication of charge, also show level of electrolyte.
A 'drop test ' as suggested by David would be a good idea.
Always recharge a battery as soon as possible.
Although you say the system worked at first, I would say as others have said this is a poorly balanced system.
I have two Trojan t105's , now into their fourth year, they are fed by 2 x100watt panels through a Xantrex C40 ( Fully adjustable to suit battery charging regime ) and a 180amp Allbright Contactor (controlled by a cheap Ring Smartcom) for split charging., this set up has enabled us to run a Waeco Coolbox compressor as a freezer for up to 3 months at a time with no EHU.

Alec.
 
Well I took multimeter readings all through the day yesterday as suggested and here they are. The first one is with the fridge off and then all the others are with it on. On the PMS there are lights that indicate the charge state of the battery, going from red at it's lowest through four green lights to the highest level. We refer to these as from 1 (red -lowest) to 5 (highest) so I have shown those as well. It hardly ever shows 5, only after being on EHU or driving for a long time. Bear in mind when I started taking the readings the van had not been on EHU or driven far for several days.

Time. Reading. PMS indicator light
09.50. 13.60. 4
11.05. 12.57. 4
12.10. 12.92. 4
1.15. 13.09. 4
2.30. 13.03. 4
3.35. 13.02. 4
4.45. 13.15. 4
6.15. 12.73. 3
8.15. 12.60. 3
9.25. 12.42. 3
10.30. 12.66. 3
11.55. 10.26. 1

I took 2 further readings this morning, which were:

09.15. 10.06. 1
11.00. 12.77. 4
12.30. 13.10. 4

Up to 10.30 last night I would think it's quite normal, but then why the sudden drop over less than 2 hours? That doesn't seem right to me. At 11.55 the fridge was actually still operating (usually by then it has gone off) but I imagine it will have gone off soon after. At 09.15 this morning it was on too, so it probably only went off for a few hours (the ice cubes were still solid, but then it hadn't been opened all night).

What I also don't understand is how it could go up again so quickly this morning, when the only power source is the solar panel. If these readings indicate anything to anyone, such as the battery's no good (despite several people testing it and saying it's ok), I would be very grateful to hear. Just one more thing; when the auto electrician in Kendal tested the battery he only did so during their normal working hours, so wouldn't have seen the sudden late night drop, so that might have led him to believe the battery was ok.
 
I would have suggested a specific gravity test myself as its probe the best test of a battery but I believe this is a sealed for life low maintenance battery. The latest test lead me to think this is a damaged or poor battery.

Conroy could you repeat the tests at roughly the same time but have the hook up connected as well.

Alf


Livotlout said:
HI conroy

I presume this a wet lead / acid battery, a test of the specific gravity would give some indication of charge, also show level of electrolyte.
A 'drop test ' as suggested by David would be a good idea.
Always recharge a battery as soon as possible.
Although you say the system worked at first, I would say as others have said this is a poorly balanced system.
I have two Trojan t105's , now into their fourth year, they are fed by 2 x100watt panels through a Xantrex C40 ( Fully adjustable to suit battery charging regime ) and a 180amp Allbright Contactor (controlled by a cheap Ring Smartcom) for split charging., this set up has enabled us to run a Waeco Coolbox compressor as a freezer for up to 3 months at a time with no EHU.

Alec.
Click to expand...
 
Alf said:
I would have suggested a specific gravity test myself as its probe the best test of a battery but I believe this is a sealed for life low maintenance battery. The latest test lead me to think this is a damaged or poor battery.

Conroy could you repeat the tests at roughly the same time but have the hook up connected as well.

Alf
Click to expand...

Gonna be out for quite a while today, but could do the tests on hook up tomorrow. What would that indicate, we don't of course have any problem on hook up?
 
you should get both solar charge and hook up charge which will give the battery more charge see what that gives you as the solar drops. I still think your battery capacity has been reduced either by constantly dropping to a low voltage or just a faulty battery.

Alf

Conroy said:
Gonna be out for quite a while today, but could do the tests on hook up tomorrow. What would that indicate, we don't of course have any problem on hook up?
Click to expand...
 
Conroy said:
Well I took multimeter readings all through the day yesterday as suggested and here they are. The first one is with the fridge off and then all the others are with it on. On the PMS there are lights that indicate the charge state of the battery, going from red at it's lowest through four green lights to the highest level. We refer to these as from 1 (red -lowest) to 5 (highest) so I have shown those as well. It hardly ever shows 5, only after being on EHU or driving for a long time. Bear in mind when I started taking the readings the van had not been on EHU or driven far for several days.

Time. Reading. PMS indicator light
09.50. 13.60. 4
11.05. 12.57. 4
12.10. 12.92. 4
1.15. 13.09. 4
2.30. 13.03. 4
3.35. 13.02. 4
4.45. 13.15. 4
6.15. 12.73. 3
8.15. 12.60. 3
9.25. 12.42. 3
10.30. 12.66. 3
11.55. 10.26. 1

I took 2 further readings this morning, which were:

09.15. 10.06. 1
11.00. 12.77. 4
12.30. 13.10. 4

Up to 10.30 last night I would think it's quite normal, but then why the sudden drop over less than 2 hours? That doesn't seem right to me. At 11.55 the fridge was actually still operating (usually by then it has gone off) but I imagine it will have gone off soon after. At 09.15 this morning it was on too, so it probably only went off for a few hours (the ice cubes were still solid, but then it hadn't been opened all night).

What I also don't understand is how it could go up again so quickly this morning, when the only power source is the solar panel. If these readings indicate anything to anyone, such as the battery's no good (despite several people testing it and saying it's ok), I would be very grateful to hear. Just one more thing; when the auto electrician in Kendal tested the battery he only did so during their normal working hours, so wouldn't have seen the sudden late night drop, so that might have led him to believe the battery was ok.
Click to expand...
if the Reading's are taken with solar connected you are getting Reading's from battery and solar not just the battery .or am I missing something.
 
You are getting exactly the same symptoms as me. The solar panels are running the fridge through the day and putting a little back into the battery enough to run the fridge for a few hours then fail and shut your fridge down when it gets down to about 10.5v. When the compressor kicks in it causes a larger voltage drop than when it is actually running. Your battery could well read 12v making you think it should run the fridge but when it tries to start the comp the voltage will momentarily drop below 10.5 causing it to go into fault. If its anything like mine I can hear it cycling as the voltage comes back up and trying to start the comp again. As the sun comes up and starts to make your panel work it rapidly takes over from the battery and runs the fridge. The lights on the controller don't really show a state of charge in the battery just the voltage at that time whilst the panel is producing, hence the rapid rise but not shoving many amps into the battery.
When the battery was first put in it was able to stand more abuse. But when you are off grid for 5 days you are at a constant loss because your panel cant produce what you taking from your battery so you are slowly causing damage to the battery. What I would suspect would be the battery you removed was of a much higher quality than the battery you replaced it with, which enabled it to withstand the abuse longer. If like me with a PVC you will be very limited for space as to what or how many batteries you can fit in.
I don't know about your van but ours has a separate switch for the fridge so you can turn off the power through the night as no one opens the fridge door to conserve the battery a little until the sun comes up and the solar takes over.
All this has been on you fridge consumption not taking into account any of your other power requirements.
Ours started failing over the Christmas period in Scotland with 200w of solar and 140amp of batteries.
These are my thoughts only others may disagree.
I think your battery like mine is goosed. Buy a good quality battery. Which then opens up another can of worms.
Bit of a ramble hope it made a bit of sense.:cheers:
 
sun dance kid

Hi,
You say that the battery works fine when the fridge is isolated, therefore the logical outcome is the fault lies within the fridge.
Having been employed in the brewing industry for a large part of my working life, I can confirm that even if the thermostat appears to be working i.e. Turning the fridge on and of,that does not mean that the refrigerant aspect of the fridge is working at its optimum and may be using excessive amounts of energy to reach/maintain temp.
Just a thought.
Good luck even a replacement fridge is cheaper that replacing the MH.
 
Sundance kid said:
Hi,
You say that the battery works fine when the fridge is isolated, therefore the logical outcome is the fault lies within the fridge.
Having been employed in the brewing industry for a large part of my working life, I can confirm that even if the thermostat appears to be working i.e. Turning the fridge on and of,that does not mean that the refrigerant aspect of the fridge is working at its optimum and may be using excessive amounts of energy to reach/maintain temp.
Just a thought.
Good luck even a replacement fridge is cheaper that replacing the MH.
Click to expand...

By removing the fridge from the equation all you are saying is the battery can supply the other requirements which may be very little and possibly managed by a poor battery.
 
Fazerloz said:
You are getting exactly the same symptoms as me. The solar panels are running the fridge through the day and putting a little back into the battery enough to run the fridge for a few hours then fail and shut your fridge down when it gets down to about 10.5v. When the compressor kicks in it causes a larger voltage drop than when it is actually running. Your battery could well read 12v making you think it should run the fridge but when it tries to start the comp the voltage will momentarily drop below 10.5 causing it to go into fault. If its anything like mine I can hear it cycling as the voltage comes back up and trying to start the comp again. As the sun comes up and starts to make your panel work it rapidly takes over from the battery and runs the fridge. The lights on the controller don't really show a state of charge in the battery just the voltage at that time whilst the panel is producing, hence the rapid rise but not shoving many amps into the battery.
When the battery was first put in it was able to stand more abuse. But when you are off grid for 5 days you are at a constant loss because your panel cant produce what you taking from your battery so you are slowly causing damage to the battery. What I would suspect would be the battery you removed was of a much higher quality than the battery you replaced it with, which enabled it to withstand the abuse longer. If like me with a PVC you will be very limited for space as to what or how many batteries you can fit in.
I don't know about your van but ours has a separate switch for the fridge so you can turn off the power through the night as no one opens the fridge door to conserve the battery a little until the sun comes up and the solar takes over.
All this has been on you fridge consumption not taking into account any of your other power requirements.
Ours started failing over the Christmas period in Scotland with 200w of solar and 140amp of batteries.
These are my thoughts only others may disagree.
I think your battery like mine is goosed. Buy a good quality battery. Which then opens up another can of worms.
Bit of a ramble hope it made a bit of sense.:cheers:
Click to expand...

Thanks, a very interesting and useful ramble. Sorry you're having similar problems but it does help when you find someone with the same experience, especially someone with more technical knowledge. I hadn't realised the solar panel could produce enough power to run the fridge, but that does make sense, how the extra going into the battery can keep the fridge going for a while but when that runs out the fridge goes off. That is exactly the pattern we get any day we're not on EHU. My misunderstanding of the lights on the controller hasn't helped, I understand now why they quickly rise in the morning as it doesn't actually show the state of charge in the battery, just the level of input.

I still don't get how various people can test the battery and say it's ok, but I'm thinking you're right and a new one is needed. A previous post gave a link to a battery technology page of "a and n caravans" website, which recommends Varta LFD90 or Bosch L5 batteries, as being much more efficient than other batteries. Maybe I should consider one of those. You're right I am limited for space so one more efficient battery would be better than trying to squeeze two in.

Yes there's a switch inside the fridge for turning it off. I suppose even with a new battery it may be worth switching it off overnight to try to to preserve the battery better. My only worry is that the fridge stays cold enough to keep the food inside still safe to eat. Sometimes when our fridge goes off late at night, or in the early morning hours, we find that next morning the ice cubes are still frozen, so I guess it maybe would be OK.
 
Sundance kid said:
Hi,
You say that the battery works fine when the fridge is isolated, therefore the logical outcome is the fault lies within the fridge.
Having been employed in the brewing industry for a large part of my working life, I can confirm that even if the thermostat appears to be working i.e. Turning the fridge on and of,that does not mean that the refrigerant aspect of the fridge is working at its optimum and may be using excessive amounts of energy to reach/maintain temp.
Just a thought.
Good luck even a replacement fridge is cheaper that replacing the MH.
Click to expand...

Interesting thought. We were beginning to suspect a faulty fridge ourselves, but from the replies on this thread I'm thinking a new and better battery may be required. If we did change the fridge I believe a 3 way would be preferable, more efficient in terms of battery usage anyway. I seem to recall though that someone told us we wouldn't be able to fit a 3 way fridge in our van, don't recall who though, we've spoken to so many people about this.
 
Conroy said:
Thanks, a very interesting and useful ramble. Sorry you're having similar problems but it does help when you find someone with the same experience, especially someone with more technical knowledge. I hadn't realised the solar panel could produce enough power to run the fridge, but that does make sense, how the extra going into the battery can keep the fridge going for a while but when that runs out the fridge goes off. That is exactly the pattern we get any day we're not on EHU. My misunderstanding of the lights on the controller hasn't helped, I understand now why they quickly rise in the morning as it doesn't actually show the state of charge in the battery, just the level of input.

I still don't get how various people can test the battery and say it's ok, but I'm thinking you're right and a new one is needed. A previous post gave a link to a battery technology page of "a and n caravans" website, which recommends Varta LFD90 or Bosch L5 batteries, as being much more efficient than other batteries. Maybe I should consider one of those. You're right I am limited for space so one more efficient battery would be better than trying to squeeze two in.

Yes there's a switch inside the fridge for turning it off. I suppose even with a new battery it may be worth switching it off overnight to try to to preserve the battery better. My only worry is that the fridge stays cold enough to keep the food inside still safe to eat. Sometimes when our fridge goes off late at night, or in the early morning hours, we find that next morning the ice cubes are still frozen, so I guess it maybe would be OK.
Click to expand...

The info on that website makes interesting reading. If ours need replacing, we will be looking at those batteries.I seem to recall that Trev rates them on that thread.
 
Given the choice I would pick a three way fridge. But when we bought the van either stupidly or naively I didn't ask the question and assumed it was 3 way. But as a fridge it is as good as the one at home, as long as you can keep it supplied with electricity. There again it will never run my gas bottle empty leaving me without fridge, heating and cooking. Everything is a compromise and when everything is working well life is good. Even as I type this I m convincing myself the compressor fridge is the better option. After all how many threads are there on 3 ways not working.
 
Conroy said:
Yes there's a switch inside the fridge for turning it off. I suppose even with a new battery it may be worth switching it off overnight to try to to preserve the battery better. My only worry is that the fridge stays cold enough to keep the food inside still safe to eat. Sometimes when our fridge goes off late at night, or in the early morning hours, we find that next morning the ice cubes are still frozen, so I guess it maybe would be OK.
Click to expand...

We have a switch on the outside of the fridge tucked away in a cupboard to turn off the fridge that way you don't have to open the door and let out the cold to turn off the switch. If you have ice in the freezer compartment you will have nothing to worry about temp wise overnight.
With our Waeco CR65 they are in reality only a 12v fridge. The 240v side feeds a totally separate 12v supply unit which then feeds the fridge. In fact when you find the supply unit, usually at the back of the fridge it even has a cigarette lighter type socket in it.
 
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