Car park New England Bay, Dumfries and Galloway.

[FergusTheFuso]

Yep, we've done the Mull, New England is our last stop on the way back to Stranraer for fuel and food. Previously we pitched up at the lighthouse north of Port Patrick, and the carpark of the lighthouse at the tip of the Mull. Now heading into the Galloway forests for a week or so. Didnt find the roads challenging, we're weii used to single tracks, people tend to give us the right of way, the orange flashing light still on the cab roof helps too (the truck used to be a snow-plower)! The roads are bone jarring though, our truck rides like a full concrete mixer - thank goodness for suspension seats.

I too have always had the mindset that grey water is no different from washing a car in the street and have no qualms disposing of it sensibly. But I'm led to believe that it's an offence to discharge grey water in England (someone correct me?) and Europe, so visitors might be in a quandary as to how to offload it? A tee junction and gully trap added next to an elsan would make it a truly 'one-step shop'.

Trust me, NZ has the same issues with tenters, and hikers, especially in what should be pristine national parks. There's places that were treated as inaccessible 20 years ago, that now have queues in the middle of nowhere to get the selfie shot with the 'top of the world' behind them! They say Everest is an absolute rubbish tip now.

 

[marchie]

I think I know what you mean. It’s ironic but there are less places to visit, but in actual fact there are now far more facilities than in the past. Highland council have taken a pragmatic approach, and this area alone accounts for roughly one third of Scotlands territory. They have installed many elsan points, Aires, and plan more for the future. They have encouraged land owners to use some of their land for Aires, and slowly things are improving.
You highlight the main issue in Scotland right now, to many vans. But I only say this because there are not enough facilities, with more facilities there would not be to many vans. The only real comparison between us and NZ is that most of the vans are not Scottish, we probably only make up 10-20% of all the vans on the road. But unlike NZ we don’t suffer as much with vans which are poorly equipped.
As for grey water most turn a blind eye to sensibly getting rid of it. When you think of it it’s really not much different from washing your car in your driveway. Were does all that dirty soapy water go. Some small campsites (CLS) encourage you to dispose of it in bushes etc. my advice is don’t do it in full view of the public, not because it’s harmful, it just looks bad. It was one of the complaints from Dumfries and Galloway regarding New England Bay. Just use common sense when there is no access to grey water disposal.
But bringing out laws with regards to the facilities inside vans, in a country were there are few facilities outside for them makes little sense. We don’t have thousands of vans running about the country with no facilities leaving their mess. Our main issue during covid related to tent dwellers with bad attitudes, thankfully this has settled down now. What we need are better and more facilities outside for the vans, not more facilities inside them. And hopefully things will continue to improve. I know that other councils are looking at Fife, and Highland as examples for the future. So it’s important that Fife succeed in what they are doing, so that other councils will follow.
It’s also important that attitudes towards us improves. Things are different here than in your homeland, and they require a different approach.

Bye the way if you have not already done so head down to the Mull of Galloway. The drive is challenging but it’s well worth it. Also not far from you there’s a stunning carpark just north of port Logan where you can watch the sun going down at night. The same sign is there, but it’s unenforceable. I do try to respect these signs, but when a council decides to put them in every car park in their region that becomes impossible.

Councils can use By Laws to stop us doing something; or they can use By Laws to support/enable us to do something. Unfortunately, there seem to be more of the former than the latter at present, and the stench of vested interests/corruption is rarely out of sniffing distance ...

Steve

 

[carol]

I have received further correspondence and things are looking bad for the whole of Dumfries and Galloway, not just New England bay. Can I ask any CAMpRA members on here to ensure that they are aware of what’s going on and for them to get involved, this is very serious for us all.
Here’s what I received this morning, and my reply.

Morning William
The picnic area is the whole area as you enter into New England bay,
I do know that the campsite is only opened for 6 months of the year,
The proposal are for all the car parks in Dumfries & Galloway not just New England bay,
We have had numerous complaints about camping in all the picnic areas in Wigtownshire,
The Eslan points where installed as visitors where disposing of the waste inappropriately,
as you highlighted earlier we cannot enforce whether visitors stay one night or several we would like visitors to come enjoy the area and leave it as they find it, unfortunately that does not happen in some cases, the signage was put in place as a request from local people and elected members as they had concerns about the amount of people visiting the area , if you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards Stuart

My reply

Good morning Stuart,

There are several issues here.
First as I have already pointed out there are limitations placed upon you regarding camping in Scotland under the land reform act.

But most importantly a Motorhome parked in a carpark is not actually camping.
Whereas motorhomes have their own toilet facilities those who camp don’t. And in my experience this is were most of the issues stem from, particularly were there are no toilet facilities. Motorhome owners rarely leave rubbish lying around, if they have dogs they ensure they don’t leave dog waste, they don’t tend to get drunk resulting in poor antisocial behaviour, they don’t race about car parks in the early hours, they don’t tend to take recreational drugs, on the whole we tend to be the best behaved visitors in car parks. I have sadly witnessed all of the aforementioned behaviour and never from any motorhome owners.

By stopping or attempting to stop all overnight parking in Dumfries and Galloway you are in effect banning Motorhome owners who pay more towards for the very facilities you wish to ban them from than the average car driver does. Yet again we alone are being singled out for such treatment. Although your signage has no legal authority, and even though most of us are aware of this, most Motorhome owners being responsible decent people will abide by them. Also by doing this you put more pressure on other regions around you who have adopted much more reasonable and pragmatic solutions. Fife council and Highland councils being prime examples. Many of these motorhomes have come from Europe, were such actions as you propose would never happen, and were provisions for motorhomes are far superior to what you currently provide, even prior to such a draconian proposals being implemented, if approved. What kind of message does this send to visitors when a whole region proposes such unnecessary and draconian action.

The vast majority of Motorhome owners are elderly people like myself, who have worked all of their adult lives and paid all of their taxes helping to improve our country, to be treated in such a manner is totally unacceptable. Also please consider that within Dumfries and Galloway you have thousands of residents who own motorhomes, who can visit other regions who don’t seek to limit their activities. These other regions don’t see us as a hinderance to be dealt with, but instead an opportunity for local businesses.

I hope that during any discussion prior to any possible implementation that someone will be given the opportunity to put forward our perspective here. By banning all overnight parking in a whole region regardless of individual circumstances, is simply not reasonable or appropriate. In my experience many who take such decisions are ignorant of all of the facts, and simply make such decisions without proper due diligence.

I really hope that these proposals are dealt with carefully.

Regards

Thank you so much for taking the time to pursue this. Your eloquent and logical reply is brilliant!

 

[Robmac]

Yep, we've done the Mull, New England is our last stop on the way back to Stranraer for fuel and food. Previously we pitched up at the lighthouse north of Port Patrick, and the carpark of the lighthouse at the tip of the Mull. Now heading into the Galloway forests for a week or so. Didnt find the roads challenging, we're weii used to single tracks, people tend to give us the right of way, the orange flashing light still on the cab roof helps too (the truck used to be a snow-plower)! The roads are bone jarring though, our truck rides like a full concrete mixer - thank goodness for suspension seats.

I too have always had the mindset that grey water is no different from washing a car in the street and have no qualms disposing of it sensibly. But I'm led to believe that it's an offence to discharge grey water in England (someone correct me?) and Europe, so visitors might be in a quandary as to how to offload it? A tee junction and gully trap added next to an elsan would make it a truly 'one-step shop'.

Trust me, NZ has the same issues with tenters, and hikers, especially in what should be pristine national parks. There's places that were treated as inaccessible 20 years ago, that now have queues in the middle of nowhere to get the selfie shot with the 'top of the world' behind them! They say Everest is an absolute rubbish tip now.

View attachment 121453

Sorry to go off track (intended!) but that is one stunning vehicle!

 

[Robmac]

Thank you so much for taking the time to pursue this. Your eloquent and logical reply is brilliant!

I agree Carol.

 

[caledonia]

I agree Carol.

I agree Rob.

 

[Fisherman]

I agree Rob.

I agree with Carol, Rob and Cal, ok who’s next

 

[alcam]

I agree with Carol, Rob and Cal, ok who’s next

Ted and Alice

 

[Fisherman]

Well after 18 months of hounding Dumfries and Galloway over their Aire at New England Bay I have just been informed that it is now available for overnighting. They ask us not to spend anymore than two nights there, and to take care of the site.
New England Bay Aire is set outside of the C&MC site, and I can assure you all this decision came about regardless of requests by them to stop overnighting. The C&MC deliberately exaggerated issues to attempt to have it closed.

There are some who reckon spending weeks there at a time is acceptable, I informed D&G this in my opinion was totally unacceptable, and that the vast majority of responsible van owners would agree. They also stated there are issues with grey waste. I pointed out to them that many including myself spend their last night in the C&MC site and empty it there. But I also put it to them that many small CLs allow this to be dumped in bushes etc, and they have had no environmental issues. I am glad that common sense has prevailed, and an Aire with an elsan point, 24 hour toilets, freshwater, and set in a place with outstanding views across Luce Bay is now available to us. Oh and it’s free. Between the front area, and the rear area I reckon you could easily get 30-40 vans in, but I have never seen more than ten or so. I’ll say it again it’s free

One further point D&G have put up signs on every one of their carparks. They concur that these signs are unenforceable, and have no legal standing on an email I received from them on post 17.

Good afternoon William,
yes I can confirm that ‘No Overnight Parking’ signage has been put out in the New England Bay picnic area along with other similar locations, you are correct that presently these signs are not enforceable in law. My colleague Mike, who is on annual leave until next week, is part of a team who are reviewing the parking regulations for D & G Council and will be presenting a report to Elected Members for their consideration of next steps. When I have had the opportunity to speak with Mike, next week, he or I will confirm back to you exactly where this process is at, the signage was put in place as a request from local community councils.

Kind regards, Stuart

 

[Thistle]

@Fisherman
A good result, I personally think it rather sad that any so called ‘club’ puts commercial interest ahead of common sense or the greater good but I guess profit matters to every organisation

 

[barryd]

Well after three years of hounding Dumfries and Galloway over their Aire at New England Bay I have just been informed that it is now available for overnighting. They ask us not to spend anymore than two nights there, and to take care of the site.
New England Bay Aire is set outside of the C&MC site, and I can assure you all this decision came about regardless of requests by them to stop overnighting. The C&MC deliberately exaggerated issues to attempt to have it closed.

There are some who reckon spending weeks there at a time is acceptable, I informed D&G this in my opinion was totally unacceptable, and that the vast majority of responsible van owners would agree. They also stated there are issues with grey waste. I pointed out to them that many including myself spend their last night in the C&MC site and empty it there. But I also put it to them that many small CLs allow this to be dumped in bushes etc, and they have had no environmental issues. I am glad that common sense has prevailed, and an Aire with an elsan point, 24 hour toilets, freshwater, and set in a place with outstanding views across Luce Bay is now available to us. Oh and it’s free. Between the front area, and the rear area I reckon you could easily get 30-40 vans in, but I have never seen more than ten or so. I’ll say it again it’s free

One further point D&G have put up signs on every one of their carparks. They concur that these signs are unenforceable, and have no legal standing on an email I received from them on post 17.

Good afternoon William,
yes I can confirm that ‘No Overnight Parking’ signage has been put out in the New England Bay picnic area along with other similar locations, you are correct that presently these signs are not enforceable in law. My colleague Mike, who is on annual leave until next week, is part of a team who are reviewing the parking regulations for D & G Council and will be presenting a report to Elected Members for their consideration of next steps. When I have had the opportunity to speak with Mike, next week, he or I will confirm back to you exactly where this process is at, the signage was put in place as a request from local community councils.

Kind regards, Stuart

So if I have got this right. The Aire has a service point and is useable but there is still a sign on it saying no overnight parking?

 

[Robmac]

So if I have got this right. The Aire has a service point and is useable but there is still a sign on it saying no overnight parking?

I don't know the answer Barry but I would say probably.

It goes on in a lot of places.

 

[Fisherman]

So if I have got this right. The Aire has a service point and is useable but there is still a sign on it saying no overnight parking?

As far as I know the sign has/will be replaced.
Yes it has an elsan point, freshwater, and 24 hour toilets.
Their unenforceable signs are currently in place on the rest of their carparks.
But I am hoping they will see sense and review them individually, the way they should have.
I believe these signs are being reviewed.
I am still in contact with them over this issue.

 

[Fisherman]

@Fisherman
A good result, I personally think it rather sad that any so called ‘club’ puts commercial interest ahead of common sense or the greater good but I guess profit matters to every organisation

I really don’t understand their problem. It’s a large site and almost always fully booked.
And many of us end up spending a night or two in the site before leaving. I had a “debate” with the warden last year, whose attitude was appalling. He finished up by informing me that WC would be banned by now at NEB. I informed him that I beg to differ, and that D&G were reviewing things. I wonder how that warden feels now.

 

[barryd]

I really don’t understand their problem. It’s a large site and almost always fully booked.
And many of us end up spending a night or two in the site before leaving. I had a “debate” with the warden last year, whose attitude was appalling. He finished up by informing me that WC would be banned by now at NEB. I informed him that I beg to differ, and that D&G were reviewing things. I wonder how that warden feels now.

I must admit it made me laugh when we came across it a couple of years ago on the bike and got chatting to some of the wild campers. To say they were smug and laughing at the "Campsite dwellers" would be an understatement.

 

[Fisherman]

I must admit it made me laugh when we came across it a couple of years ago on the bike and got chatting to some of the wild campers. To say they were smug and laughing at the "Campsite dwellers" would be an understatement.

I use that campsite Barry.
For me there is no difference between the campsite dwellers looking down their noses at those wc, and the reverse. It’s a good site, which offers excellent facilities for those with small boats who want to sail or fish in Luce Bay. They even have a boat washing facility. Live and let live, I enjoy wc, but I also enjoy the additional benefits campsites offer. But I have no time for the warden there, or the organisation he works for.

 

[barryd]

I use that campsite Barry.
For me there is no difference between the campsite dwellers looking down their noses at those wc, and the reverse. It’s a good site, which offers excellent facilities for those with small boats who want to sail or fish in Luce Bay. They even have a boat washing facility. Live and let live, I enjoy wc, but I also enjoy the additional benefits campsites offer. But I have no time for the warden there, or the organisation he works for.

I think its a British thing Bill. I've stayed on a few Aires right outside campsites in Europe. Some of which were provided by the campsites. Even stayed on wild spots outside campsites. Nobody cares over there. Sites recognise there is a difference between self contained vans and tents and caravans and provide for them.

 

[marchie]

Well after 18 months of hounding Dumfries and Galloway over their Aire at New England Bay I have just been informed that it is now available for overnighting. They ask us not to spend anymore than two nights there, and to take care of the site.
New England Bay Aire is set outside of the C&MC site, and I can assure you all this decision came about regardless of requests by them to stop overnighting. The C&MC deliberately exaggerated issues to attempt to have it closed.

There are some who reckon spending weeks there at a time is acceptable, I informed D&G this in my opinion was totally unacceptable, and that the vast majority of responsible van owners would agree. They also stated there are issues with grey waste. I pointed out to them that many including myself spend their last night in the C&MC site and empty it there. But I also put it to them that many small CLs allow this to be dumped in bushes etc, and they have had no environmental issues. I am glad that common sense has prevailed, and an Aire with an elsan point, 24 hour toilets, freshwater, and set in a place with outstanding views across Luce Bay is now available to us. Oh and it’s free. Between the front area, and the rear area I reckon you could easily get 30-40 vans in, but I have never seen more than ten or so. I’ll say it again it’s free

One further point D&G have put up signs on every one of their carparks. They concur that these signs are unenforceable, and have no legal standing on an email I received from them on post 17.

Good afternoon William,
yes I can confirm that ‘No Overnight Parking’ signage has been put out in the New England Bay picnic area along with other similar locations, you are correct that presently these signs are not enforceable in law. My colleague Mike, who is on annual leave until next week, is part of a team who are reviewing the parking regulations for D & G Council and will be presenting a report to Elected Members for their consideration of next steps. When I have had the opportunity to speak with Mike, next week, he or I will confirm back to you exactly where this process is at, the signage was put in place as a request from local community councils.

Kind regards, Stuart

I'll have some of what Stuart is on ... IF the 'No Overnght Stays' are not enforceable at law, why did D&G Council accede to the Community Councils' request to erect them? If they are not enforceable, why waste piublic funds operating a de facto scam? Why not comply with the Council's duty and explain to the Community Councils why the signage will not be erected?

Steve

 

[Fisherman]

R

I'll have some of what Stuart is on ... IF the 'No Overnght Stays' are not enforceable at law, why did D&G Council accede to the Community Councils' request to erect them? If they are not enforceable, why waste piublic funds operating a de facto scam? Why not comply with the Council's duty and explain to the Community Councils why the signage will not be erected?

Steve

In 2014 police Scotland informed councils that these no overnight parking signs were non enforceable. What they rely on are decent folk even with the knowledge that they are not enforceable honouring them. But the very people who were causing issues will still ignore them. I normally do abide by them, but in the case of D&G I decided to ignore them because they had put them up in everyone of their carparks. To comply with the law public carparks must abide by the 1984 road traffic act, and apply for a traffic regulation order (TRO). They must also put up signage stating the reference number for the TRO and the stipulations and fines applied to it. But D&G went further banning camping in non secured land, which is in breech of the land reform act of Scotland. I reckon they realised that most of their issues came from those without facilities in tents, and that due to the LRA there was little they could do to stop them. But I may of course be wrong.

Footnote why is the word r-form banned on here seems strange.

 

[alcam]

I'll have some of what Stuart is on ... IF the 'No Overnght Stays' are not enforceable at law, why did D&G Council accede to the Community Councils' request to erect them? If they are not enforceable, why waste piublic funds operating a de facto scam? Why not comply with the Council's duty and explain to the Community Councils why the signage will not be erected?

Steve

I suppose it would have been seen as a compromise. Minor deterrent, probably works in many cases .
There are many signs all over the UK which are just , legally , nonsense.
No overnight parking is the most common.
If we are legally allowed to park there , why not ?