Car park New England Bay, Dumfries and Galloway.

[caledonia]

It’s the way it’s going I’m afraid. As a few aires have popped up with the good work of CAMPRA and the like we will be banned by traffic orders from the rest of the county. I think this was inevitable.

 

[arthur49]

I’ve had acknowledgment of my message from leadership and popped up a post for approval on the Facebook group including the D&G council email and reminded people how Fife have approached this.
One of the CAMpRA team has a really good relationship with the council and also worked hard with Fife (that’s why so many of the new Aires popping up are in D&G) so hopefully something more positive can be achieved.

Thank you Cecilia. I've messaged my contact in D & G. He has no control over the car parks but has influence from a tourism and business perspective.

I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message. Otherwise wait for the height barriers!

And the New England Bay location, though excellent, is commonly abused. We looked in past last summer and found vans clearly there for days/weeks with awnings, windbreaks, a generator and grey taps open. They may be the minority but they do a lot of reputational damage, and the majority suffer.

If D & G could do what Fife have done - and there are more car parks opening up to overnighting there - then this would be a good way forward. However some believe they have the right to overnight in a public car park for nothing, and that too makes progress difficult

 

[Fisherman]

Thank you Cecilia. I've messaged my contact in D & G. He has no control over the car parks but has influence from a tourism and business perspective.

I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message. Otherwise wait for the height barriers!

And the New England Bay location, though excellent, is commonly abused. We looked in past last summer and found vans clearly there for days/weeks with awnings, windbreaks, a generator and grey taps open. They may be the minority but they do a lot of reputational damage, and the majority suffer.

If D & G could do what Fife have done - and there are more car parks opening up to overnighting there - then this would be a good way forward. However some believe they have the right to overnight in a public car park for nothing, and that too makes progress difficult

Hi Arthur thanks for your post.

After consideration I will fully respect this sign, I have just booked three nights in the CMC campsite instead of my usual one.
But the people who are responsible for these issues, many of whom are not even motorhome owners will most probably ignore them.
We have seen large tents there for long periods, caravans also.
Two miles north of New England Bay last summer in Ardwell two caravans with awnings were parked up.
We got chatting to the camp site owner just up from it.
They had been there for over a month.
I don't reckon we are the main problem, but I may be wrong.

But I think you may have missed the main concern here.
The email I received makes it clear that D&G look to put up the same signs all over the region.
If we respect each sign then D&G will in its entirety become a no go area.
I am very concerned over the contents of this email.

 

[Cie]

Thank you Cecilia. I've messaged my contact in D & G. He has no control over the car parks but has influence from a tourism and business perspective.

I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message. Otherwise wait for the height barriers!

And the New England Bay location, though excellent, is commonly abused. We looked in past last summer and found vans clearly there for days/weeks with awnings, windbreaks, a generator and grey taps open. They may be the minority but they do a lot of reputational damage, and the majority suffer.

If D & G could do what Fife have done - and there are more car parks opening up to overnighting there - then this would be a good way forward. However some believe they have the right to overnight in a public car park for nothing, and that too makes progress difficult

Hi Arthur,
I understand exactly what you are saying. Signs going up that don’t have any legal weight always cause controversy and some will ignore for that reason, others will see it as indication that their presence is unwanted by locals so will respect that.

I think the bigger issue here the correspondence Bill (The OP) received from Dumfries Council in that they plan to ban overnighting in ALL D&G car parks, so will presumably seek to put relevant Bylaws in place making any signage an enforceable restriction.

The particular situation at New England Bay is unfortunate due to how some are taking advantage of the large space and using it as an informal campsite, which has obviously upset local residents / businesses.

The location would make a marvellous Aire with facilities already in place, providing an all year facility for non members unlike the campsite next door. This is why I suggested to CAMpRA that perhaps D&G Council could be shown the Fife or indeed Ayrshire models and maybe trial this as Ayrshire has done at various locations. I know this moves away from being a previously free ‘wild camping’ facility to one that is paid, but surely that is preferable no facility at all.

Given that D&G have been seen up to now as a council that’s been very welcoming to motorcaravans, providing waste facilities helping small 3 van Aires to open, and working proactively with CAMpRA in allowing the 5 van sites that now exist to open, it seems a real shame for a backwards step. Hopefully some of the CAMpRA members on Facebook will email the council at the address I provided and make their feelings known.

 

[arthur49]

Hi Arthur,
I understand exactly what you are saying. Signs going up that don’t have any legal weight always cause controversy and some will ignore for that reason, others will see it as indication that their presence is unwanted by locals so will respect that.

I think the bigger issue here the correspondence Bill (The OP) received from Dumfries Council in that they plan to ban overnighting in ALL D&G car parks, so will presumably seek to put relevant Bylaws in place making any signage an enforceable restriction.

The particular situation at New England Bay is unfortunate due to how some are taking advantage of the large space and using it as an informal campsite, which has obviously upset local residents / businesses.

The location would make a marvellous Aire with facilities already in place, providing an all year facility for non members unlike the campsite next door. This is why I suggested to CAMpRA that perhaps D&G Council could be shown the Fife or indeed Ayrshire models and maybe trial this as Ayrshire has done at various locations. I know this moves away from being a previously free ‘wild camping’ facility to one that is paid, but surely that is preferable no facility at all.

Given that D&G have been seen up to now as a council that’s been very welcoming to motorcaravans, providing waste facilities helping small 3 van Aires to open, and working proactively with CAMpRA in allowing the 5 van sites that now exist to open, it seems a real shame for a backwards step. Hopefully some of the CAMpRA members on Facebook will email the council at the address I provided and make their feelings known.

Yes Cecilia. My contact in D & G is checking this out. ie what is position re car parks. As I said above he does not manage or control car parks but he does have influence from a tourism/business perspective, so hopefully he can get me some clarity which I'll share here (and elsewhere!)

 

[barryd]

D & G council are missing a trick here really. Its not like that part of Scotland is on the top of the list of the best places to visit in Scotland. From my experience some of it is like the land that time forgot and a bit shabby. Going the other way and making it motorhome friendly would I reckon attract (hopefully) respectable motorhomers especially out of season into empty or half empty car parks, picnic spots and most would be happy to pay a few quid and spend locally. Its fairly easy to get to from the north of England also. They should be thinking of ways to attract visitors, not deter them.

 

[caledonia]

Thank you Cecilia. I've messaged my contact in D & G. He has no control over the car parks but has influence from a tourism and business perspective.

I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message. Otherwise wait for the height barriers!

And the New England Bay location, though excellent, is commonly abused. We looked in past last summer and found vans clearly there for days/weeks with awnings, windbreaks, a generator and grey taps open. They may be the minority but they do a lot of reputational damage, and the majority suffer.

If D & G could do what Fife have done - and there are more car parks opening up to overnighting there - then this would be a good way forward. However some believe they have the right to overnight in a public car park for nothing, and that too makes progress difficult

Ignoring a no parking sign depends on who erected the sign and location it is erected.
I think you will find we do have the right to spend the night in a public car park for nothing if no charge is asked for.

 

[caledonia]

Hi Arthur,
I understand exactly what you are saying. Signs going up that don’t have any legal weight always cause controversy and some will ignore for that reason, others will see it as indication that their presence is unwanted by locals so will respect that.

I think the bigger issue here the correspondence Bill (The OP) received from Dumfries Council in that they plan to ban overnighting in ALL D&G car parks, so will presumably seek to put relevant Bylaws in place making any signage an enforceable restriction.

The particular situation at New England Bay is unfortunate due to how some are taking advantage of the large space and using it as an informal campsite, which has obviously upset local residents / businesses.

The location would make a marvellous Aire with facilities already in place, providing an all year facility for non members unlike the campsite next door. This is why I suggested to CAMpRA that perhaps D&G Council could be shown the Fife or indeed Ayrshire models and maybe trial this as Ayrshire has done at various locations. I know this moves away from being a previously free ‘wild camping’ facility to one that is paid, but surely that is preferable no facility at all.

Given that D&G have been seen up to now as a council that’s been very welcoming to motorcaravans, providing waste facilities helping small 3 van Aires to open, and working proactively with CAMpRA in allowing the 5 van sites that now exist to open, it seems a real shame for a backwards step. Hopefully some of the CAMpRA members on Facebook will email the council at the address I provided and make their feelings known.

I think you will find it not a backwards step by the council but a direct result of D and G providing aires and allowing 5van sites is a ban on overnights in public car parks.

 

[Fisherman]

Ignoring a no parking sign depends on who erected the sign and location it is erected.
I think you will find we do have the right to spend the night in a public car park for nothing if no charge is asked for.

The poster stated “if the sign was official”, and this sign was erected by D&G.
See below.
I agree the wording regarding charges in carparks could have been better.
I think Arthur was referring to people who stay for long periods, not people who park for a night or two.
But charging helps to stop those who reckon spending a week or longer there is ok. Fife now charge £10 a night, after offering free parking. And Robbie Blythe the person who runs Fife Coastal Trust has confirmed to me that the charge has resulted in improved behaviour. They have backed this up with nightly visits by the wardens. Robbie has stated that this money will be used to improve facilities. This is what D&G should be looking at, it brings in revenue which can be used to pay towards their costs, and avoids punishing those who have behaved properly.

 

[alcam]

Ignoring a no parking sign depends on who erected the sign and location it is erected.
I think you will find we do have the right to spend the night in a public car park for nothing if no charge is asked for.

Well said . Puzzles me that people would just blindly obey an illegal (unenforceable) sign stuck up by Tom , Dick etc .
Like other motor vehicles I will pay car park fee if there is one .

 

[caledonia]

The poster stated “if the sign was official”, and this sign was erected by D&G.
See below.
I agree the wording regarding charges in carparks could have been better.
I think Arthur was referring to people who stay for long periods, not people who park for a night or two.
But charging helps to stop those who reckon spending a week or longer there is ok. Fife now charge £10 a night, after offering free parking. And Robbie Blythe the person who runs Fife Coastal Trust has confirmed to me that the charge has resulted in improved behaviour. They have backed this up with nightly visits by the wardens. Robbie has stated that this money will be used to improve facilities. This is what D&G should be looking at, it brings in revenue which can be used to pay towards their costs, and avoids punishing those who have behaved properly.

View attachment 119281

I understand what the poster stated and wouldn’t park at that area with that sign but have no problem parking in a discreet forestry carpark with a sign but I wouldn’t be in a big white motorhome.
I have no problem paying to overnight but what I do have a problem with is being forced to park in nice wee bays in a carpark or aire. If I wanted that I’d go to a campsite.

 

[Fisherman]

Well said . Puzzles me that people would just blindly obey an illegal (unenforceable) sign stuck up by Tom , Dick etc .
Like other motor vehicles I will pay car park fee if there is one .

The poster did not state you should obey an unenforceable sign put up by Tom, Dick etc. This is what he said

“I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message.”

 

[arthur49]

The poster did not state you should obey an unenforceable sign put up by Tom, Dick etc. This is what he said

“I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its mess

I think you will find it not a backwards step by the council but a direct result of D and G providing aires and allowing 5van sites is a ban on overnights in public car parks.

For clarity D & G are not "providing aires".
In an effort to support and improve tourism and increase revenues across the county they are (or were, not sure of 23/24 budget ) allocating grants to individuals and businesses who wanted to set up an Aire. I so wish other areas of Scotland would do likewise.
Council owned car parks - I would love D & G to copy Fife's initiative in its car parks.

 

[arthur49]

The poster stated “if the sign was official”, and this sign was erected by D&G.
See below.
I agree the wording regarding charges in carparks could have been better.
I think Arthur was referring to people who stay for long periods, not people who park for a night or two.
But charging helps to stop those who reckon spending a week or longer there is ok. Fife now charge £10 a night, after offering free parking. And Robbie Blythe the person who runs Fife Coastal Trust has confirmed to me that the charge has resulted in improved behaviour. They have backed this up with nightly visits by the wardens. Robbie has stated that this money will be used to improve facilities. This is what D&G should be looking at, it brings in revenue which can be used to pay towards their costs, and avoids punishing those who have behaved properly.

View attachment 119281

"I think Arthur was referring to people who stay for long periods, not people who park for a night or two."

Those who descend on this picnic area for days/weeks are the biggest problem. But stopping even for a night or two and behaving as if its a campsite also do reputational damage.
What we witnessed last summer was ridiculous, selfish, inconsiderate, short sighted and "self - entitled" behaviour and I'm not surprised D & G are doing something about it.
If everyone adopted a low profile, stayed one night, left no trace, and didn't treat it like a campsite, then there might have been no sign!

 

[Fisherman]

"I think Arthur was referring to people who stay for long periods, not people who park for a night or two."

Those who descend on this picnic area for days/weeks are the biggest problem. But stopping even for a night or two and behaving as if its a campsite also do reputational damage.
What we witnessed last summer was ridiculous, selfish, inconsiderate, short sighted and "self - entitled" behaviour and I'm not surprised D & G are doing something about it.
If everyone adopted a low profile, stayed one night, left no trace, and didn't treat it like a campsite, then there might have been no sign!

Hi Arthur,

This is what you posted

If D & G could do what Fife have done - and there are more car parks opening up to overnighting there - then this would be a good way forward. However some believe they have the right to overnight in a public car park for nothing, and that too makes progress difficult

This wording if taken literally leaves it open to various interpretations.
I tried to make sense of it, instead of taking it literally, it is obvious that you were trying to get a message across, and I possibly wrongly guessed what your point was.
But yes in the past few years I to have witnessed such behaviour in various locations throughout Scotland. I have twice emailed D&G the Fife report carried out by Fife Coastal Trust, and their CO Robbie Blythe. I also asked that all of the elected members who will decide on this are sent this report.

Although disappointed with this retrograde proposal, I to am not surprised. The basis for what D&G are proposing is based on the poor behaviour of some including Motorhome owners, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the creation of Aires in my honest opinion.
If these individuals had behaved properly, we would not be in this position.
Thanks for all your efforts.

 

[alcam]

The poster did not state you should obey an unenforceable sign put up by Tom, Dick etc. This is what he said

“I have to say though that ignoring signs even if legally unenforceable, is a bad idea. If the sign is official then respect its message.”

I was making a general observation. The poster , on this thread , was echoing what other posters have stated previously.
In general I think it's nonsensical

 

[caledonia]

For clarity D & G are not "providing aires".
In an effort to support and improve tourism and increase revenues across the county they are (or were, not sure of 23/24 budget ) allocating grants to individuals and businesses who wanted to set up an Aire. I so wish other areas of Scotland would do likewise.
Council owned car parks - I would love D & G to copy Fife's initiative in its car parks.

Sorry I shall reword to make it clearer. D an G council are allowing the provision of Aires and 5 van sites and by doing this makes their argument for banning overnights in public car parks an easier argument to win.

 

[barryd]

I suspect a lot of pressure has been applied by the C&MC here and if you can believe the first two reviews for the New England bay site then you can kind of see why. Apparently (according to the latest reviewer) the club has had to install key code machines on the showers facilities etc as the wild campers outside were sneaking along the beach and into the site to use the showers. The next earlier review also states this.

Link here if you can be bothered to wait for the increadibly slow site to wake up.

https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/club-together/reviews/club-site-reviews/new-england-bay-caravan-club-site/

It all seems to be since Covid which kind of fits. Its the same (well much worse) up on the NC500 now. Aires may well be the only answer if this continues.

 

[Fisherman]

I would reckon this would have been people in tents or campers with no showers Barry. Shameful behaviour.

 

[barryd]

I would reckon this would have been people in tents or campers with no showers Barry. Shameful behaviour.

Perhaps but I think we know, not all motorhomers are saints.