Car park New England Bay, Dumfries and Galloway.

barryd said:
Apparently (according to the latest reviewer) the club has had to install key code machines on the showers facilities etc as the wild campers outside were sneaking along the beach and into the site to use the showers.
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That's pretty common on club sites though. When we visit sites that are in towns, they all have them to stop passers by from using the facilities, so it isn't an unusual thing or a big hardship for the club to do that.
 
Jo001 said:
That's pretty common on club sites though. When we visit sites that are in towns, they all have them to stop passers by from using the facilities, so it isn't an unusual thing or a big hardship for the club to do that.
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This site is in the middle of nowhere though, the only people likely to sneak in and use the facilities would be people camping outside of the site or perhaps the odd day visitor to the beach or picnic area.
 
I agree @barryd, I just meant it's a pretty standard practice for them, for anywhere that non-customers are likely to use the facilities.
 
Jo001 said:
That's pretty common on club sites though. When we visit sites that are in towns, they all have them to stop passers by from using the facilities, so it isn't an unusual thing or a big hardship for the club to do that.
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To be honest I don't view it as crime of the century.
When I wandered in my teens I often casually popped into big hotels nipped upstairs and had a quick bath. At that time there was usually a bathroom on the half landing .
Left no trace , did no harm
 
I think an important points been missed in the previous four pages, the sign is not discriminatory against just people in Vans, it’s an instruction to everyone and imho should be responded to using general terms on behalf of everyone.

As soon a correspondence starts indicating a preference e.g @Fisherman has specifically mentioned motor homes that can potentially have a detrimental affect by inadvertently focusing attention on a particular group innocent or not.

There are plenty of people at the very edge of our society that will come up with self serving reasons to decide any signage doesn’t apply to them so I suspect these signs will be getting ripped down faster than the bean counters can lob them up initially.

The real danger is probably the adversarial situations that can subsequently occur between unofficial enforcement nimbies and their chosen victim because the signage can empower those often already enraged nimbies to think they have the right to take action.

Just think how less abused these places might still be if all the lazy spoonfeds that create most of the problems actually had to look at a map or physically search to find somewhere to go rather than flock to a much published instagram location, poi or worse via one of the apps full of gushing reviews!
 
Thistle said:
I think an important points been missed in the previous four pages, the sign is not discriminatory against just people in Vans, it’s an instruction to everyone and imho should be responded to using general terms on behalf of everyone.

As soon a correspondence starts indicating a preference e.g @Fisherman has specifically mentioned motor homes that can potentially have a detrimental affect by inadvertently focusing attention on a particular group innocent or not.

There are plenty of people at the very edge of our society that will come up with self serving reasons to decide any signage doesn’t apply to them so I suspect these signs will be getting ripped down faster than the bean counters can lob them up initially.

The real danger is probably the adversarial situations that can subsequently occur between unofficial enforcement nimbies and their chosen victim because the signage can empower those often already enraged nimbies to think they have the right to take action.

Just think how less abused these places might still be if all the lazy spoonfeds that create most of the problems actually had to look at a map or physically search to find somewhere to go rather than flock to a much published instagram location, poi or worse via one of the apps full of gushing reviews!
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I nor anyone else have accused D&G of discrimination, and I actually don’t think we are the main target with regards to New England bay. I reckon those who put up large tents, spend weeks there are. But it’s a reasonable assumption to make that when no overnight parking signs are erected normally we are the main target. But we have all seen signs which do discriminate mentions us solely, and some of these signs were put up many years ago and still remain.
 
Robmac said:
I've known members of this forum do this Barry!
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Would they walk into a shop and take something off the shelf without paying, because there is no difference Rob. Theft is theft no matter how you care to wrap it up. But what I don’t get is why would anyone with a shower on board stoop to this level. :mad:

We have lost a great we overnight spot, because of idiots. We normally spent two nights there before heading into the camp for the last night. This year we have had to book three nights in the site. And I actually preferred the carpark.
 
This is of interest to me as we are leaving tomorrow and our intended first overnight stop is to be in D&G as we always do when oop norf.
 
I've just now joined the forum, and have just spent last night at the New England Bay site in question.

We are a couple who full-time in our Fuso 4x4 overland camper-truck, and to financially maintain such a lifestyle, need to use as many wild-camping sites as possible, in return we be as respectful and thankful as possible. We have the luxury of having 4wd to be able to get more remote, and conversely we stand out in more public areas looking like a G4S prisoner transport wagon. We also have the luxury of a fitted washing machine, but again have to be mindful and respectful as to when we can hang clothing outside.

Last night there were six camped in the corral behind the toilet block (five MH, one caravan+awning+generator), which surprised us as we expected it to be mobbed now that the Scottish school holidays have started. The site is tidy, and the council bin men came this morning. I noted the sign at the toilet block that faces the beach park - if the council are hell-bent on stopping overnighters in the corral, there should be a sign there too.

I commend the council for providing a fresh water-elsan service point HHowever they have ommited a grey water grate/gully trap, unlike the one they've put in at Milton on the other side of the bay.

I'm originally from New Zealand. The issues on the NC500 during COVID? - NZ has suffered that for three decades, majorly due to overseas tourists. There's a lot of beautiful country to see, but over big distances, so the best way to see all it is by camper. Backpackers would arrive at Auckland airport, buy the cheapest Toyota van or a station wagon, chuck in a mattress, camp and poo anywhere and everywhere, and dump the car in the airport car park on the way out. Some dodgy camper hire companies popped up providing not much more, usually high mileage beaters with a mattress and a camp stove, which compounded the problem. The DoC (dept of conservation) who administer all the forest parks and national parks, have over 200 wild ('freedom' in NZ) campsites that were being left in a filthy state, as well as many other local council sites around the country. Some of the forest sites are free, some paid ones as littles as $2 a head/night - a true privilege not to lose. Many sites were blocked off, preventing NZers enjoying their own country because of visitors who couldn't care less. Incidentally, the budget vans in NZ are called 'swish-bangs' - that's the sound the sliding door makes in the night when its occupants go outside to do their business in the bushes next to your camper.

Many changes were made federally and council-wise, and the problems have improved significantly. These include...
- all hire campers to be self contained - porta-potti and a fitted sink with waste tank as a minimum.
- all campers and motorhomes that are self-contained are registered as such, and are subject to a 3-yearly containment 'MOT'.
- in many freedom sites, only self-contained campers are allowed.
- almost every town has a council-provided free service point, usually in an industrial estate, orj ust out of town, or part of a livestock truck waste disposal facility. The council's have wisely realised it is cheaper to install a service point rather than constantly clean up all the rubbish and filth by ignorant #*"@£.
- hefty fines for not towing the line. Some infringements are civil enforced, some are criminally enforced, and Customs can stop you on the way out of the country if you have unpaid fines!

Never mind looking to Fife - Scotland and it's councils should be looking to NZ as an example. Just like NZ, Scotland relies on the tourist income.
 
(Just to clarify- You DID mean Nesting Zombie when you say NZ relies on tourist for Food)

Ooops I meant income 😉



Just playing, Seriously a good post & hope to see more from you, Why don’t you join as a Full member?
 
FergusTheFuso said:
I've just now joined the forum, and have just spent last night at the New England Bay site in question.

We are a couple who full-time in our Fuso 4x4 overland camper-truck, and to financially maintain such a lifestyle, need to use as many wild-camping sites as possible, in return we be as respectful and thankful as possible. We have the luxury of having 4wd to be able to get more remote, and conversely we stand out in more public areas looking like a G4S prisoner transport wagon. We also have the luxury of a fitted washing machine, but again have to be mindful and respectful as to when we can hang clothing outside.

Last night there were six camped in the corral behind the toilet block (five MH, one caravan+awning+generator), which surprised us as we expected it to be mobbed now that the Scottish school holidays have started. The site is tidy, and the council bin men came this morning. I noted the sign at the toilet block that faces the beach park - if the council are hell-bent on stopping overnighters in the corral, there should be a sign there too.

I commend the council for providing a fresh water-elsan service point HHowever they have ommited a grey water grate/gully trap, unlike the one they've put in at Milton on the other side of the bay.

I'm originally from New Zealand. The issues on the NC500 during COVID? - NZ has suffered that for three decades, majorly due to overseas tourists. There's a lot of beautiful country to see, but over big distances, so the best way to see all it is by camper. Backpackers would arrive at Auckland airport, buy the cheapest Toyota van or a station wagon, chuck in a mattress, camp and poo anywhere and everywhere, and dump the car in the airport car park on the way out. Some dodgy camper hire companies popped up providing not much more, usually high mileage beaters with a mattress and a camp stove, which compounded the problem. The DoC (dept of conservation) who administer all the forest parks and national parks, have over 200 wild ('freedom' in NZ) campsites that were being left in a filthy state, as well as many other local council sites around the country. Some of the forest sites are free, some paid ones as littles as $2 a head/night - a true privilege not to lose. Many sites were blocked off, preventing NZers enjoying their own country because of visitors who couldn't care less. Incidentally, the budget vans in NZ are called 'swish-bangs' - that's the sound the sliding door makes in the night when its occupants go outside to do their business in the bushes next to your camper.

Many changes were made federally and council-wise, and the problems have improved significantly. These include...
- all hire campers to be self contained - porta-potti and a fitted sink with waste tank as a minimum.
- all campers and motorhomes that are self-contained are registered as such, and are subject to a 3-yearly containment 'MOT'.
- in many freedom sites, only self-contained campers are allowed.
- almost every town has a council-provided free service point, usually in an industrial estate, orj ust out of town, or part of a livestock truck waste disposal facility. The council's have wisely realised it is cheaper to install a service point rather than constantly clean up all the rubbish and filth by ignorant #*"@£.
- hefty fines for not towing the line. Some infringements are civil enforced, some are criminally enforced, and Customs can stop you on the way out of the country if you have unpaid fines!

Never mind looking to Fife - Scotland and it's councils should be looking to NZ as an example. Just like NZ, Scotland relies on the tourist income.
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Dumfries and Galloway have put these unenforceable and in terms of the land reform act of Scotland, illegal signs in all of their carparks. We do have issues in Scotland but not on the scale you have in NZ. And these issues are mainly within certain areas, and at certain times of the year. New England Bay is an excellent wild camping spot, in all the times I have stayed there, the only issue I witnessed involved people emptying their cassettes into the toilet. But since they fitted the elsan point this issue has been dealt with. I know that area well, but I am not aware of where Milton is, or any grey water grill. Bye the way I was there only four weeks ago, and that caravan with the generator was there.

The main difference between Scotland and NZ is you had a culture which welcomed wild camping, which has been abused. You have an infrastructure capable of handling many more than we could, because we lack any proper infrastructure, something we are working on and is very much a work in progress. The vast majority of vehicles used in Scotland have all of the facilities required, and most who use small campers without facilities tend to be very careful of the environment which they very much treasure. So what’s required here currently are not unnecessary draconian laws, but an infrastructure comparable with the one in NZ, and in some cases a change in attitude from some councils towards us.
I note your comment about Fife council, and I absolutely disagree with your comments. Fife council have shown great patience towards us, they could have shut things down after what happened last year. But instead they have opened up many more car parks for our use, and they plan to extend this to other carparks in their area. They also plan to provide many more elsan points, and improve and extend the opening hours of their toilets. They have done so regardless of resistance against this from some locals, and some within their own council who are opposed to these changes and improvements. Robbie Blythe and Fife coastal trust deserve much credit for all they have done, and will be doing in future.

So you come from a country the size of the U.K. with a population of just 5 million, the U.K. has 68 million. You are an isolated country with no immediate neighbours we have the continent of Europe on our doorstep. As I said you enjoyed a culture which welcomed wild camping and provided resources for it. We don’t, but with time, and education one day we hope to change things, but not by introducing unnecessary, and unwelcome laws which currently at least are not required. Enjoy Scotland, it’s a stunning country, sadly I doubt if I will ever make it to yours, a big regret on my part. Thanks for your post.
 
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Hey, don't get me wrong, I love Scotland, I've lived here coming on 16 years and have a Scottish wife. Other than Shetland, I reckon we have driven almost every rural road here, by motorbike, cars and campers. And want to keep camping here. My wife says there is only two types of people in this world - those who are Scottish, and those who want to be Scottish!

What we have found in the last few years, and certainly now since Covid, is the number of places we'd wild camped at before, that are now not accessible be it by signage or boulders. I don't know who are the culprits are that have caused this, so I was only giving an outside perspective and an insight on how another country has worked on a similar problem - I wasn't ragging on Scottish councils. Also now that we are fulltiming, we struggle to find places to fill up water and dump black waste. We have called into a number of campsites to ask if we can just fill up and dump our waste (and happily offered to pay for that service) and were turned away. Luckily we have 300 litres of fresh water onboard and two toilet cassettes, so the time between service points is stretched out. But as I said before, the council's who are putting in service points ( 👍👍) have not cottoned on that there is also grey waste needing disposed of, which needs only a ground-level gully trap on the same drain line as the black waste - I'm sure most motorhomes carry a grey waste hose.

Yeah, that caravan looks well entrenched. There's also an old guy in a motorhome with a trailer, canoe, recumbent tricycle, fishing rods, and other detritus who looks like in for the long haul. Long-stayers, even tidy ones, don't help the cause any.
 
FergusTheFuso said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I love Scotland, I've lived here coming on 16 years and have a Scottish wife. Other than Shetland, I reckon we have driven almost every rural road here, by motorbike, cars and campers. And want to keep camping here. My wife says there is only two types of people in this world - those who are Scottish, and those who want to be Scottish!

What we have found in the last few years, and certainly now since Covid, is the number of places we'd wild camped at before, that are now not accessible be it by signage or boulders. I don't know who are the culprits are that have caused this, so I was only giving an outside perspective and an insight on how another country has worked on a similar problem - I wasn't ragging on Scottish councils. Also now that we are fulltiming, we struggle to find places to fill up water and dump black waste. We have called into a number of campsites to ask if we can just fill up and dump our waste (and happily offered to pay for that service) and were turned away. Luckily we have 300 litres of fresh water onboard and two toilet cassettes, so the time between service points is stretched out. But as I said before, the council's who are putting in service points ( 👍👍) have not cottoned on that there is also grey waste needing disposed of, which needs only a ground-level gully trap on the same drain line as the black waste - I'm sure most motorhomes carry a grey waste hose.

Yeah, that caravan looks well entrenched. There's also an old guy in a motorhome with a trailer, canoe, recumbent tricycle, fishing rods, and other detritus who looks like in for the long haul. Long-stayers, even tidy ones, don't help the cause any.
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I think I know what you mean. It’s ironic but there are less places to visit, but in actual fact there are now far more facilities than in the past. Highland council have taken a pragmatic approach, and this area alone accounts for roughly one third of Scotlands territory. They have installed many elsan points, Aires, and plan more for the future. They have encouraged land owners to use some of their land for Aires, and slowly things are improving.
You highlight the main issue in Scotland right now, to many vans. But I only say this because there are not enough facilities, with more facilities there would not be to many vans. The only real comparison between us and NZ is that most of the vans are not Scottish, we probably only make up 10-20% of all the vans on the road. But unlike NZ we don’t suffer as much with vans which are poorly equipped.
As for grey water most turn a blind eye to sensibly getting rid of it. When you think of it it’s really not much different from washing your car in your driveway. Were does all that dirty soapy water go. Some small campsites (CLS) encourage you to dispose of it in bushes etc. my advice is don’t do it in full view of the public, not because it’s harmful, it just looks bad. It was one of the complaints from Dumfries and Galloway regarding New England Bay. Just use common sense when there is no access to grey water disposal.
But bringing out laws with regards to the facilities inside vans, in a country were there are few facilities outside for them makes little sense. We don’t have thousands of vans running about the country with no facilities leaving their mess. Our main issue during covid related to tent dwellers with bad attitudes, thankfully this has settled down now. What we need are better and more facilities outside for the vans, not more facilities inside them. And hopefully things will continue to improve. I know that other councils are looking at Fife, and Highland as examples for the future. So it’s important that Fife succeed in what they are doing, so that other councils will follow.
It’s also important that attitudes towards us improves. Things are different here than in your homeland, and they require a different approach.

Bye the way if you have not already done so head down to the Mull of Galloway. The drive is challenging but it’s well worth it. Also not far from you there’s a stunning carpark just north of port Logan where you can watch the sun going down at night. The same sign is there, but it’s unenforceable. I do try to respect these signs, but when a council decides to put them in every car park in their region that becomes impossible.
 
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