The camping and caravan clubs anti wild camping letter.

If you read to the bottom of the article it turns out the argument seems to be about 2 specific lay-bys on two old stretches of road by Loch Earn.

Interesting article all the same. (y)

PS. It's dated 2017, don't know if anything has changed with any bye laws or police powers since then?
may be the 2 meter caper that a lot ignore. no .hard luck ok.pj.
 
One last point and one I have never seen highlighted on here.

We are not breaking the law by wild camping, there is no law preventing us doing what we enjoy. But I reckon that what we need is not a law that prevents people from being free to enjoy their pastime, but a law that prevents others from preventing us enjoying our pastime. I and others are suspicious of what has been going on recently in more and more locations. Councils need to become more open and be made accountable and be made to fully justify the erection of barriers and signage which interfere with our civil liberties.
 
We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
When we wildcamped in rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
We were never challenged or moved on.
It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.
 
We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
When we wildcamped in rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
We were never challenged or moved on.
It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.
let it rip. one snif and im gone, ok.pj.you no what i mean.mff.
 
I have to say I fully agree with Meg (Biggarmac). Although I do a heck of a lot of “wildcamping” in Scotland I am fully aware that it is not covered by the so called “right to roam“ act and I make absolutely sure that I do nothing to p**s anybody off and behave as responsibly as I can at all times. I know that what I am doing is capable of challenge at any time and want to avoid giving motorhomers a bad reputation.
I think the main problem lies with a lot of folk believing that wild camping in a motorhome / campervan is allowed under the “right to roam”, whereas it is specifically excluded.
i also think that a Rob Ganley‘s response is correct, given his position as editor of a magazine, whether we like it or not.
By all means feel free to wildcamp up here but please behave responsibly in the knowledge that what you are doing is not necessarily 100% legal, so the less reason you give folks to complain the more likely you are not to be challenged.
 
Reply from CCC

Thanks for taking the time to get in touch about this. I've received this response from the editor:

We're sorry you feel we should not have published this letter, however our Mailbag section exists to give voice to members' opinions on all matters relating to camping and caravanning.

Mr Currie was responding to a photo in the magazine that portrayed what could be interpreted as a motorhome being used for wild camping on the Isle of Skye. Wild camping is clearly a very emotive subject and the debate surrounding it could fill many pages so in order to help provide context to Mr Currie's letter we felt it was important to reply, stating the law in relation to wild camping in Scotland in a motor vehicle for purposes of clarification.

Our organisation cannot condone any activity that would contravene laws, local or national, hence the wording used.

We would be happy to receive direct responses to Scott Currie's letter with a view to publication. These would be subject to editorial scrutiny in the usual way.

Kind Regards,

Emily
Try telling that to the gypsies, oops sorry, ‘travellers’ who turn up as and when they please, like this weekend, again, - WHAT LOCKDOWN! In caravans, vans, and motorhomes and park up for the night/week (mostly having forced an entry) totally unannounced and illegally and oblivious to all and any bylaws, ownerships, police notices etc etc.
 
Unlike travellers who are a complete and total law unto themselves and to whom our policeforce and landowners aren’t worth a thought! And who appear to live totally outside the law of the land!
 
So I get you are a tad anti traveller , so now that is established do you have anything constructive to add to the debate?

If we were to assume wild campers like travellers were an ethnicity can you imagiine. The fun we would face in the courts with unfounded prejudice, . Prejudice is the point of Bills thread, how do we deal with it ?
 
Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk





I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…


Dear Sirs

Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.

He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.

I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.

Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.

Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.

Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.

Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.

The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.

Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.

Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.

I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.


Yours Faithfully
 
An excellent and comprehensive email. I think though the C&CC will consider it too long to publish in its entirety and will be interested to see which parts they cherrypick, assuming they publish. We travel in hope is, I think, an appropriate saying for motorhomers in the UK.

Davy
 
So I get you are a tad anti traveller , so now that is established do you have anything constructive to add to the debate?

If we were to assume wild campers like travellers were an ethnicity can you imagiine. The fun we would face in the courts with unfounded prejudice, . Prejudice is the point of Bills thread, how do we deal with it ?
No nothing is “established” Channa, I made no such comment: my comment is that why are the police not jumping upon these ‘travellers’ who very obviously totally ignore the lockdown, whereas you or I out and about in our motorhome (cherish the thought) would be jumped on, as has already happened and been reported on!
 
Thanks for posting this issue, I tended to agree with Fisherman then cooled as I read the other comments. I have been a motor homer for years and also a member of the CCC. We more often use Certifed sites but our main enjoyment comes from roaming the area and calling to a site late afternoon to see if theres space. That's where the problem starts as many sites are booked full and there's no room for tourers so we often then look for a wild camping area. Last year touring the lakes and Cumbria this was really difficult. I know it's our preference but the freedom of stopping a while longer in places you like or moving on from ones you are not interested in is becoming more difficult. The two occasions I have observed motor homers behaving outside the spirit our group were both hire vehicles which I would class as casual users although one did pick up once I pointed out their error.
 
Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk





I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…


Dear Sirs

Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.

He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.

I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.

Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.

Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.

Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.

Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.

The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.

Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.

Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.

I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.


Yours Faithfully
Dear Barge, I could have written your letter myself, and agree thoroughly and entirely with it. The only thing I might have high-lighted a little more is that on the continent, there is rarely a town or city which does not welcome the touring motorhome, almost all of them boasting a site (iers) before or after, but close to, the local village, town or city - a big lesson which could be learned from them by our own councils/gov.
 
We full timed between May and September in a 6metre coach built for 18 UK summers.
Weekends on C&CC meets, odd midweeks on CLs.
When we wildcamped in rural areas, if we couldn't find a handy pub to overnight, we be very careful where we would park up. In Urban areas, even more careful.
The idea of driving into a seaside resort and plonking down on the prom, with a mob of other itinerants, was abhorrent.
We were never challenged or moved on.
It was easier in those early days, as there were fewer wild.campers even fewer motorhomes. And certainly a lot fewer D!ck heads with no imagination about.
But I'm now a State Registered Old F@rt.
you are, then i am 2. keep your chin up. and let it go. all the best, ok.pj. stay a way from the honey pot,
 
Dear Barge, I could have written your letter myself, and agree thoroughly and entirely with it. The only thing I might have high-lighted a little more is that on the continent, there is rarely a town or city which does not welcome the touring motorhome, almost all of them boasting a site (iers) before or after, but close to, the local village, town or city - a big lesson which could be learned from them by our own councils/gov.
Have you written the above to the CCC mag? The more letters they get which are not all saying exactly the same thing the more likely the message will get across. And yes I have sent a letter.
 
Well just came back to this thread for the first time in a while.
Just read barge 1914 letter, and I reckon it’s the best I have read yet.
Many thanks for all the pms of support, and to those who sent me their letters.
I know this won’t change much if anything, but Scotts totally biased, ill informed letter, and the pathetic reply from the editor just had to be answered.
I will tell you what I hope will come from this.

1) The CCC will finally waken up to the fact that the tuggers no longer dominate their organisation. In a few years time Motorhome owners will outnumber caravan owners. They will have to take notice of this, and respond accordingly. Possibly the two large organisations may in future link up with local councils and themselves instal some limited facilities and maintain them. They could charge us more for annual fees than the tuggers in order for us to use them. Just an idea, I don’t know if this would be possible.
2) If as I hope they do publish some of the many comments this will be noted by the other lot, and the penny may drop for them to. They changed their name to include the word Motorhome, but have done absolutely nothing for us since, apart from adding a few drive over grey water drains.
3) Finally I am convinced that our biggest problem is ignorance about us. You could not miss this in Scott’s letter. I hope that this in some small way will help educate people, that we are not inconsiderate law breakers, who don’t give a toss about the locals or the environment they live in. The vast majority I have met out and about and on here are decent folk, who have worked hard all of their lives, and simply want to enjoy the freedom that wild camping gives us all.

Thanks again for all the support, and well done to all who have emailed the CCC.
I reckon we have given them a lot to think about.
 
Mailbag@campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk





I refer to the letter you published in the CC&C June magazine, from Scott Currie regarding wild camping, and your editorial comments. I was considering re-joining the C&CC this year now that it is inevitable I must spend more time in the UK. Your response does little to encourage me. My reply follows below…


Dear Sirs

Mr Currie complains that the CCC seems to condone overnight off site parking in a motorhome, which he incorrectly asserts is illegal by reference to the land reform act, which is relevant only to private land. Apart from a few locations with specific bylaws, PSPOs, or TROs enacted under an act of parliament there is no law in the UK against sleeping in a vehicle on or adjacent a public highway, or in a public car-park where it is not legally prohibited.

He cites with apparent prejudice the actions of a thoughtless minority to condemn the activities of a substantial majority, many retired, who act both legally and appropriately and often belong to Motorhome Clubs who encourage responsible behaviour. Our ethos is to be discrete, put nothing outside, leave nothing but appreciation, take nothing but photos and memories, and if possible spend locally.

I can say emphatically I have never discharged black waste inappropriately, left rubbish, invaded private land, or stayed close to or obstructed residential property, and would have strong words for those who do. Indeed, in common with many of my fellow motorhomers, I frequently pick up the rubbish left by car occupants in locations where I stay, and leave such facilities as I use in a far cleaner state than they were when I arrived. And where small communities provide and maintain facilities I am more than happy to make a donation.

Having said that I can understand the gentleman’s concerns, albeit I believe he is myopically aiming at the wrong target, completely missing what is a much wider issue, the lack of joined up policy in the UK.

Self-contained motorhomes do not need acres of expensive campsite, sanitary and shower facilities, reception, grounds or maintenance staff, hence many avoid them. Parking space and access to a tap and drain every few days are quite sufficient. It is welcome that the C&CC provide paid service point access at a few of their sites, but this falls way short of the true need.

Motorhomes travel all year round, yet campsites are mostly closed in winter. In summer they are booked up months ahead. Campsites are located and developed around the long stay needs of tent campers and caravans, who can rely on their cars for local exploration and transport. For me and many others the essence of motorhoming is unscheduled exploration of quiet remote places, hopping from place to place making short stays, and exploring on foot, bike or public transport places of interest at the destinations or in between.

Over the last two decades sales of motorhomes have increased many-fold. Local Authorities, caravan and motorhome Clubs and private interests throughout continental Europe (and even New Zealand, Australia, America and Canada) have responded by welcoming motorhomes and providing many tens of thousands of dedicated parking places some with pay-for service points, both in towns, villages and rural areas, with some countries even providing stand alone service points to support wild campers.

The UK has instead responded with ill informed letters of complaint, bans, prohibition signs (many illegal), height barriers and so on. Hotel and campsite owners agitate in local councils, councils try to move the problem down the road. The two main caravan and camping clubs whilst welcoming subscriptions from motorhome members, doggedly resist providing or supporting the case for basic sites and facilities in locations suitable for motorhomes.

Meanwhile Tourism Scotland launches an initiative to establish a whole series of immensely successful tourist routes in remote undeveloped rural areas with insufficient campsites or facilities; these draw motorhomes from all over the UK and Europe, and support a burgeoning motorhome rental industry. Europeans expect to turn up and find facilities like at home which require no booking ahead; in the absence of guidance from rental agencies hirers haven’t a clue how to behave; all resulting in outcomes such as Mr Currie witnesses. One part of Local Government is encouraging visitors, the other seeking ways to make them go away.

Mr Currie’s problem is only going to get worse. With Brexit, and more so with Coronavirus, travel restrictions are bound to oblige thousands of motorhomers, like myself, who flood across the channel every year to more welcoming countries, to stay and navigate the hostile environment at home. Full campsites and closed public toilets are not going to help.

I would most happily support Mr Currie if he wrote letters to persuade his own Local Authority to adopt the positive and enlightened approach to motorhomes being pursued by such as the Harris Trust and Fife Council, and by cities such as Canterbury. Sadly there are so very few of them.


Yours Faithfully

Excellent barge, from start to finish, head and shoulders better than my attempt.
you obviously thought long and hard about this letter, and it shows.
I can’t see them publishing the whole letter, but hopefully if they do publish part, the gist of what you say will be clear.
 
Excellent barge, from start to finish, head and shoulders better than my attempt.
you obviously thought long and hard about this letter, and it shows.
I can’t see them publishing the whole letter, but hopefully if they do publish part, the gist of what you say will be clear.
The other point that might have been good to have brought up is that a fair number of Continental campsites have cottoned on the the numbers of motorhomes and converted a portion of their site area to being a lower cost basic serviced overnight stay facility for motorhomes, perhaps to attract back custom lost to Aires.
 

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Back
Top