Yes, the one about refilling 907 Camping Gaz bottles.

[lebesset]

907's are normally filled with 2.8Kg butane ; don't put in more than 2.5Kg propane and you will be fine

 

[oldish hippy]

think have to ask vwalan to refill mine next time i am in cornwall i will ask nicely as dont have room here to store a larger calor bottle think my neighbour wouldnt be to happy

 

[runnach]

Thanks to all of you that have contributed to this thread. My wife and are sick of paying the exorbitant refill prices demanded by the Camping Gaz outlets Now we will keep our 907's topped up with Calor propane from a large donor bottle using the fittings advised. Good work all:bow:!!

PS
A quick question:

I believe Campingaz normally fill the 907's with butane. Will it be OK to re-fill with Calor propane as suggested (I don't know the difference between the two gasses) and will it work on the Campingaz stove we have?

Thanks in anticipation!

The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.

One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.

 

[Paul Sharples]

The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.

One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.

I've not actually tried doing this refill yet so have no idea if there will be a problem. Simple solution would be to refill with butane I guess!

 

[Bernard Jones]

The cylinder itself will withstand propane...propane pressure in the bottle is higher than butane.

One possible problem you may have is I suspect that you are running propane through a butane regulator which
charges the system at 28 mbar...propane runs at 37 mbar slightly higher because its calorific value is less.

My camping Gaz regulator has the max input pressure written on it. Like the cylinder itself, (which has the max pressure stamped on the base) its max pressure is well above the pressure of propane.

 

[Channa]

My camping Gaz regulator has the max input pressure written on it. Like the cylinder itself, (which has the max pressure stamped on the base) its max pressure is well above the pressure of propane.

I think you misunderstand what I am saying Bernard.

The cylinder will accomodate propane or butane...the figure you are quoting on the bottle is the maximum pressure the bottle can stand which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.

In the gas bottle itself, propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane.

The regulator has nothing to do with the bottle , it steps down bottle pressure and feeds the gas system at 28 mbar for butane 37 mbar for propane...which are the standard working pressures.

My point is that a butane regulator supplying propane is supplying gas at just over 20 percebnt less pressure than it should,or could therefore induce underperformance of appliances.

Channa

 

[Deleted member 3011]

which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.

Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar, so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.

 

[Channa]

Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar, so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.

Where are these figures quoted?....certainly doesn't sound like UK interpretation of pressure vessel regulations which use 15 degrees and standard sea level pressure
In respect of propane being stored at a higher pressure than butane that is fact and the figure bernard is alluding too stamped on his bottle is the maximum pressure it is tested to which I suspect is 30
bar

Of course 15 degrees is more realistic to the UK than 110f which would be a

silly figure to use
Channa

 

[Deleted member 3011]

Of course 15 degrees is more realistic to the UK than 110f which would be a silly figure to use

Always a problem writing for an audience living in a country that can't quite decide whether to go fully metric or stay imperial because the hoi polloi are in a continual state of confusion..

15 quoted was actually 15 Centigrade which is 59F. Maybe a state of high summer to some, but in reality not even a realistic real-world situation in drizzly England on a rare sunny day in the boot of a car or on the dashboard where it really can get much higher than 15C

I gave figure of 115F which IS more realistic when considering proper safety margins for designing a pressure vessel. Think anywhere along the Mediterranean during summer, or Morocco any time of year and you might be wondering if a 2:1 safety margin is really enough. Butane, with way lower pressures is a smarter gas to use.

 

[lebesset]

Just to get it exactly - the vapour pressure of Propane at 110F is given as 204psi - 14bar, and for Butane it is 47psi -3bar, so the factor of safety is greatly reduced when filling with propane compared to Butane.

which is why you should always put less propane in a bottle than butane , greater volume for gas

standards in europe vary slightly viz , in the same bottle ,

repsol spain 12.5KG butane or 11Kg propane
butagas france 13Kg /11Kg
calor uk 7Kg /6Kg

as you can see , the same principle pertains

 

[lebesset]

I think you misunderstand what I am saying Bernard.

The cylinder will accomodate propane or butane...the figure you are quoting on the bottle is the maximum pressure the bottle can stand which is roughly 5 time more than the pressure propane is stored at.

In the gas bottle itself, propane is stored at a higher pressure than butane.

The regulator has nothing to do with the bottle , it steps down bottle pressure and feeds the gas system at 28 mbar for butane 37 mbar for propane...which are the standard working pressures.

My point is that a butane regulator supplying propane is supplying gas at just over 20 percebnt less pressure than it should,or could therefore induce underperformance of appliances.

Channa

motorhomes are now fitted with 30 mbar regulators to be used with both gases ; I have used 28/37/50 ....appliances worked fine with both gases

 

[Deleted member 3011]

which is why you should always put less propane in a bottle than butane , greater volume for gas

It is because the safe level of liquid in a bottle is generally regarded as being 80% full of liquid. This allows a bit of head space for expansion due to higher ambient temperatures met in practical situations. Since propane (liquid) is less dense than Butane, you need less propane (in kg) to fill the bottle to 80% volume than Butane. Theoretically, the different weights stamped on the bottle would be in the same proportion as their densities, but I guess they round it down to the nearest 0.5kg to make it easier.

 

[Therman]

Been reading this with interest as a non member and couldn't resist commenting. I think anyone who didn't know what they were doing came upon this thread they would be baffled. Much of the information is correct but a bit too technical and some is quite simply wrong and that is why accidents happen.

Unless you are intending to use the cylinder in temperatures below freezing there is no point in using propane, there is less in the cylinder due to it's lower density, it has a lower calorific value and if anything goes wrong it goes off with a much bigger bang because it's three times the pressure of butane.

If you use the wrong regulator i.e, for the other type of gas, it won't work efficiently because the gas/air ratios are different. For the same reason that is why you can't use LPG on a natural gas appliance without making adjustments to the pressure, the jets and the aeration.

The space above the liquid gas is called ullage or vapour space. This is normally about 13% of the water capacity of the cylinder. This is absolutely essential in the cylinder for 2 reasons, to ensure that you get vapour and not liquid coming through the system and also, due to the high coefficient of expansion of the liquid, if the cylinder gets too hot it is very likely to explode from hydraulic pressure and I have seen this happen just in hot sunshine.

The person who said that LPG tanks for engines can be filled to the top because they use liquid is WRONG, all car tanks are designed to shut off the inlet filler valve at about 85%. No ullage in a vehicle tank is particularly dangerous.


To get to the original point of this thread. All you need is 2 threaded butane to nozzle fittings (B1) same thread as Calor 4.5kg, one of the old grey switch-over adapters (if decanting 7/13/15kg butane 21mm cylinder) which Calor gave away in the millions when they changed the 15kg butane onto clip-on regulator and one Camping Gaz to B1 adapter for the Camping Gaz end. A piece of high pressure orange piping of same inside diameter as the nozzles on B1 adapters, fasten it all together with jubilee clips. Don't bodge the connections up or fasten 2 pieces together. Then turn donor cylinder upside down in position higher than the Gaz bottle. The cylinders may take a little time to equalize pressures and then the liquid gas will flow down the pipe. You can speed this up as has been suggested above by cooling the lower cylinder and/or warming the top one with hot water.

If you are misguidedly putting propane into a butane cylinder the vapour pressure of the propane cylinder will push it in more quickly like an aerosol (that is what they put in aerosols) but butane into propane won't work unless the bottom cylinder has no pressure in it whatsoever. You are also working with much higher pressure if anything goes wrong.

Here is an interesting tip with Gaz 907 cylinder. If you put it in a bucket of water it will float until it's full, as soon as it starts to sink it's got enough gas in it. Slight adjustments may need to be made for weight of your filling equipment of course. If perchance you think the bottle is over-full, it is prudent to squirt some liquid out before using it. Use a bit of common sense when doing that as not only is it highly flammable, you can get frost burns from the liquid which are much worse with propane. All LPG companies in UK fill cylinders according to weight and they all have their empty (tare) weight stamped on them. If the cylinder has residue in it (heavy ends) which effectively increases the tare weight, you will get less gas.

Remember, nominally empty gas cylinders are more dangerous than full ones as they can get air into them which is what is required to make a combustible mixture.

Have to mention this as it is possible. There is a very small risk of static in the piping causing a spark so it's a good idea to have an extinguisher nearby and to try to have the cylinders earthed.

I don't know the legal position with Camping Gaz because the customers own the cylinders unlike with most of the bigger cylinders in UK where it is illegal in civil law because the gas company always owns them.

Hope my rambling doesn't baffle people even more, it's a good money saver if you do it properly.
.

 

[Channa]

A good thread.....just one thing...hoses should be neoprene not rubber lpg perished rubber in a very short time.

Channa

 

[Bernard Jones]

Here is an interesting tip with Gaz 907 cylinder. If you put it in a bucket of water it will float until it's full, as soon as it starts to sink it's got enough gas in it.

With Butane presumably?
I would be worried about that idea being passed on by word of mouth because it would only be as mater of time before somebody did it with propane.

If perchance you think the bottle is over-full, it is prudent to squirt some liquid out before using it..

or simply hold the cylinder up so some drains back into the donor cylinder.

Yesterday I went to the local recycling centre with my garden rubbish, and noticed they have a cage of various gas cylinders.
I bought four Camping Gaz 907 cylinders at £3 each, one was nearly full.
They were very rusty, but I got a 400ml aerosol can of light blue paint from a car accessory store for £6 which was enough to lightly spray 6 cylinders, now they look like new. I found the easiest way to spray them is suspended from the garage ceiling, with the stopper in to keep paint out of the seal.

 

[Bernard Jones]

PS: I have 2 identical gas rings each screwed into a 907 cylinder. One is running on Flogas propane I put in myself, the other is running on Camping Gaz butane. The temperature in the van now is 17 centigrade, the gas ring running on propane produces flames about twice the size and boils a kettle in half the time of butane.

 

[oldish hippy]

well dont think ican fit a small calor bottle in mine so will have to stick with the 907and just pay the price for them as i dont havethe space

 

[n brown]

for those going to portugal,in many supermarkets the exchange method for camping gaz is to take the empty to customer services and be given a full refund of deposit,no matter the state of the bottle,then you buy a new one.so if you have spare empties,take them with you

 

[Bernard Jones]

I notice there is a special flexible rubber washer in a 907 cylinder, which can be removed and replaced with a small screwdriver. The purpose of this washer is to prevent leaks if the fitting becomes loose or unscrews. If you hear a hiss of gas when you unscrew the regulator/gas ring this washer must be damaged. Presumably Camping Gaz replace them when they refill the cylinder, but I don't think the DIY refiller can buy them?
But even if they are damaged they would be no more dangerous than ordinary cylinders which do not have this seal, so will leak if the regulator/gas ring becomes loose.
I submerge the whole cylinder and gas ring/regulator in a bucket of water to check for leaks - There is no better leak test than that.

 

[Channa]

I notice there is a special flexible rubber washer in a 907 cylinder, which can be removed and replaced with a small screwdriver. The purpose of this washer is to prevent leaks if the fitting becomes loose or unscrews. If you hear a hiss of gas when you unscrew the regulator/gas ring this washer must be damaged. Presumably Camping Gaz replace them when they refill the cylinder, but I don't think the DIY refiller can buy them?
But even if they are damaged they would be no more dangerous than ordinary cylinders which do not have this seal, so will leak if the regulator/gas ring becomes loose.
I submerge the whole cylinder and gas ring/regulator in a bucket of water to check for leaks - There is no better leak test than that.

As I previously mentioned, rubber washes must not be used with lpg, only neoprene.

If washes aren't available a non setting jointing compound for gas is a better option

Regulators shouldn't be immersed in water, often there is a vent hole one side of the diaphragm if moisture collects in the regulator performance will be affected.

Far better to spend a little buying gas detection fluid , lasts ages and is cheaper than having to replace a regulator
Channa