Wells on Sea...no go area!

It’s not a question of allowing travellers back into public car parks. Council’s have existing powers to deal with illegal incursions which some choose not to use. So they resort to height barriers.
I suspect that the Council is trying to stop them arriving in the first place, rather than deal with them with existing legislation after they have arrived, encamped, and started their campaign of violence, theft, intimidation, mess, waste and social upheaval.

Hence why I support targeted campaigns inc height barriers based on intel (which I understood the original issue to be) rather than blanket 24/7/52 bans.
 
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I suspect that the Council is trying to stop them arriving in the first place, rather than deal with them with existing legislation after they have arrived, encamped, and started their campaign of violence, theft, intimidation, mess, waste and social upheaval.

Hence why I support targeted campaigns (inc height barriers) based on intel, rather than blanket 24/7/52 bans. Which I understood the original issue to be.
If the Council were trying to be pro-active they (or the private sector) would have provided the requisite number of permanent and transit pitches for travellers. Had they done so, they could have liaised with the police to direct travellers to any available approved pitches or have them escorted out of the borough. The legislation already exists.
 
Correct, legislation does already exist. But a) not everyone wants to camp in dedicated areas (that sounds familiar) and b) we’re not talking about a Church group turning up for choir practice.

But we all have different opinions on how best to handle this. My main comment to those pushing the ethnic minority issue is be careful what you wish for.
 
Correct, legislation does already exist. But a) not everyone wants to camp in dedicated areas (that sounds familiar) and b) we’re not talking about a Church group turning up for choir practice.

But we all have different opinions on how best to handle this. My main comment to those pushing the ethnic minority issue is be careful what you wish for.
No pain no gain springs to mind if there is ever to be a solution to the travellers issues and our own.
 
What the Travellers do is a Civil matter, so nothing to do with the Police. If they interfered with an ethnic group moving from point A to point B (before any kind of offence, civil or criminal has been committed) then they are just as guilty of illegal acts as the Council is. No wonder they pulled out.
 
What the Travellers do is a Civil matter, so nothing to do with the Police. If they interfered with an ethnic group moving from point A to point B (before any kind of offence, civil or criminal has been committed) then they are just as guilty of illegal acts as the Council is. No wonder they pulled out.
Though technically speaking (from memory)
IF someone is to park up somewhere where it interferes with a business (retail carpark etc) or carrying out business it elevates the offence to Criminal trespass and this liable to police intervention and possible prosecution.
 
What the Travellers do is a Civil matter, so nothing to do with the Police. If they interfered with an ethnic group moving from point A to point B (before any kind of offence, civil or criminal has been committed) then they are just as guilty of illegal acts as the Council is. No wonder they pulled out.
That is not necessarily the case, where adequate traveller facilities exist within any borough (permanent and transit pitches) then the Police can use Section 62A of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 without any other offence being committed by directing the travellers to any available pitches or escorting them out of the borough if they refuse to move. Not many local authorities can call on the Police to use that power as they haven't made sufficient provision and then the Human Rights Act kicks in. Most travellers know which boroughs where they need to be careful.
 
What the Travellers do is a Civil matter, so nothing to do with the Police. If they interfered with an ethnic group moving from point A to point B (before any kind of offence, civil or criminal has been committed) then they are just as guilty of illegal acts as the Council is. No wonder they pulled out.


I think that is exactly right. There was a BBC report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-40997135 quoting the Deputy Chief Constable Nick Dean as saying:

"But to put the blame completely on the travelling community as a whole, I think is totally disproportionate."

Backing away from collaberating in what I believe is illegal action by the council. If I don't get the letter from the council then I might try to get it from the police.

From another report https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ival-chaos-why-changing-cromer-faced-lockdown - I think that weekend was something lie a carnival weekend and Cromer and North Norfolk coast had a quarter of a million visitors of which the number of motorhomes was negligible - I think something like 25 vans were counted in the District Council Area and itr's a pretty big area.

Cromer Carnival.jpg
 
Having a urinary problem and being of an age when I need a good sleep in the middle of the day I am forced to use my motorhome for trips longer than three quarters of an hour. At those times it is my only form of transport therefore any organisation discriminating against motorhomes is discriminating against me in the meaning of the act (age, sex, or disability) and if I find I am discriminated against in those circumstances I shall accuse them of disability discrimination and take the details of any officials and of the relevant authority. Whether I shall actually do anything about it will depend on various factors but it might just give them pause for thought. Who does one report disability discrimination to, does anyone know?

The response to Ruth (REC) is illuminating. My response to that is what are the police doing? Were the demands being made with menaces? It is about time the travellers sorted themselves out and weeded out the rougher element and stopped leaving a mess.

I travel with a copy of my council tax bill proving that I am a bona-fide home owner with a motorhome, not a traveller.

Harry
 
Harry, I think you'd have to complain in the first instance to the people who are discriminating against you. In this thread a local authority. You'd have to give the organisation an opportunity to put their discrimination right.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...ity/what-counts-as-disability-discrimination/ give good advice. In particular, this paragraph:

2021-09-30_185334.jpg

For height barriers then what they have done is the opposite. Far from making a reasonable adjustment they have made a mal-adjustment. What was accessible they have made inaccessible.

I don't know of anyone who has succeeeded in using disability as an argument against height barriers, but then, I don't know of anyone who has tried.

It would help your case if you could show evidence that a high vehicle is essential to your life-style and if you have documents showing a disability is alleviated by a van type vehicle then that would help too. Urinary disorder could be a good one. Certificate of a prostate problem or something. I'd try it first in your own council area if you have car parks with height barriers.

There's a bit of a snag though. The council might well say that they do cater for the disabled and might quote that all their car parks have spaces reserved for the disabled so you'd have to provide proof that a motorhome is essential to you and you are disadvantaged because this need means that you can't get to the disabled space in your essential vehicle. Maybe leading you into danger because you'd have to use your blue badge to park in what might be unsuitable places.

There's another snag. You have to have an interest. That means that to complain to North Norfolk District Council you'd have to live there or near there of be a frequent visitor. If all else fails then you can always try the But For …... argument. For example, But for your height barriers I'd be a more frequent visitor. If you end up going to the Ombudsman – the logical conclusion - then I don't know if the But For argument would satisfy them. My instinct is that it would.

Best of Luck.
 
If you don't mind walking, there are parking spaces along roads away from the sea front.
Cannot tell you which roads but seek and you shall find.
Round the back by the school springs to mind.
Be carefull though as some are narrow.
 
Thanks maureenandtom. The link lead to a document I found very enlightening especially the Access to goods, facilities and services bit, a toilet is a facility and if they deny me access to my own toilet by not allowing me to park my toilet in their car park then..................too complicated. I remember getting off a parking ticket once by making the point that the time was not on the receipt portion of the ticket so I was denied my reminder. We can do what we want so long as it is not specifically disallowed by law but they a can only do what is specifically permitted by law and long may that situation last. Regards, Harry
 
The trouble with councils having legal powers is that travellers know the law better than the Police or the Councils. Travellers know exactly how to go about extending their stay by nine months, all the while producing tens of thousands of pounds of damage. Travellers have plenty of funds to go to court (but none of course for road tax, insurance or yellow diesel or legal tyres). I once fitted an electronic item in a showman's small caravan. I had to run wires from the front to the back, inside the under-bed lockers. EVERY under-bed locker was full of sacks stuffed with cash. Notes I mean, not coins.
 
The trouble with councils having legal powers is that travellers know the law better than the Police or the Councils. Travellers know exactly how to go about extending their stay by nine months, all the while producing tens of thousands of pounds of damage. Travellers have plenty of funds to go to court (but none of course for road tax, insurance or yellow diesel or legal tyres). I once fitted an electronic item in a showman's small caravan. I had to run wires from the front to the back, inside the under-bed lockers. EVERY under-bed locker was full of sacks stuffed with cash. Notes I mean, not coins.
......but did your cash in hand payment go on your books? ;)
 
The trouble with councils having legal powers is that travellers know the law better than the Police or the Councils. Travellers know exactly how to go about extending their stay by nine months, all the while producing tens of thousands of pounds of damage. Travellers have plenty of funds to go to court (but none of course for road tax, insurance or yellow diesel or legal tyres). I once fitted an electronic item in a showman's small caravan. I had to run wires from the front to the back, inside the under-bed lockers. EVERY under-bed locker was full of sacks stuffed with cash. Notes I mean, not coins.
I'd maybe add a sprinkling of 'Some' throughout that statement...

Just like it's 'SOME' motorhomers Park inconsiderately and 'SOME' leave a mess etc etc
 
I've received a response from North Norfolk District Council. Attached. The highlighting is mine where I've tried to get my thoughts into order.

The council doesn't agree that their height barriers are discriminatory though the council admits they were erected to manage Gypsy and Traveller visits. For 350 days of the year there is unrestricted access to their car parks though camping and sleeping is not permitted. Campra has been in touch to try for permitted overnight sleeping but the council hasn't agreed. I don't see how the council can enforce no overnght sleeping or camping but I've not yet replied – and my reply might be influenced by any response here.

Something important comes out of this and might demonstrate the council's lack of confidence in its assertion of non-discrimination. It now says, and says it twice, that barriers are closed at the request of police. Not their decision to close, they seem to be saying.
 

Attachments

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I've received a response from North Norfolk District Council. Attached. The highlighting is mine where I've tried to get my thoughts into order.

The council doesn't agree that their height barriers are discriminatory though the council admits they were erected to manage Gypsy and Traveller visits. For 350 days of the year there is unrestricted access to their car parks though camping and sleeping is not permitted. Campra has been in touch to try for permitted overnight sleeping but the council hasn't agreed. I don't see how the council can enforce no overnght sleeping or camping but I've not yet replied – and my reply might be influenced by any response here.

Something important comes out of this and might demonstrate the council's lack of confidence in its assertion of non-discrimination. It now says, and says it twice, that barriers are closed at the request of police. Not their decision to close, they seem to be saying.
I can’t open or read the document on my phone I’m afraid, so I can’t comment on it.

However, I did speak to a solicitor (unofficially) who said that she didn’t believe it was discriminatory and doubted it would see the time of day in a court case.

Nothing about moral rights or wrongs, or the legality or otherwise of signs, just a comment on the argument of discrimination.
 
I can’t open or read the document on my phone I’m afraid, so I can’t comment on it.
Complaint of alleged contravention by North Norfolk District Council of Race Relations Act 1968
I refer to your letter dated 27th September 2021 concerning the above and note the contents therein.
The substantive issue of your complaint appears to be the District Council’s decision, following a large unauthorised encampment and anti-social behaviour by a group of Gypsies and Travellers visiting Cromer in August 2017; to install height barriers at some of its coastal car parks, which can be operated or closed at the request of police colleagues, to minimise future unauthorised encampments in the future; and whether such action is a constitutes discrimination against a defined group of people.
I advise that it isn’t clear from your complaint as to whether you are raising this issue in a personal capacity, having tried to access the Council’s car parks; are representing a group of people (members of the Gypsy and Traveller community) who believe they have suffered or experienced discrimination through the Council’s actions or policies; or otherwise have seen reporting on a local issue through the national media. I believe however that it would be helpful for the Council to understand your interest in this matter, such that an appropriate response can be provided to you. In the absence of such understanding I would comment in respect of the issues you have raised as follows:-
North Norfolk District Council does not believe that the provision of height restriction barriers on a small number of its public car parks to prevent unauthorised occupation by Gypsies and Travellers represents discrimination or contravention of the Race Relations Act 1968 as is suggested in your complaint.
The District Council provides public car parks in its market and coastal towns for the purposes of supporting the local economy – ie vibrant town centres as centres of employment shopping, business and personal services and leisure visits; and meeting the needs of tourist visitors visiting local beaches, promenade areas and related attractions, eating places etc. The car parks provided by the authority, and the bye-laws which apply to such assets, are detailed in the North Norfolk Car Park Order 2012 (as amended). The bye-laws do permit overnight parking of vehicles for use by local residents who do not have private parking or by people staying in local guest houses or self-catering accommodation without private parking, but do not allow any overnight sleeping or camping in vehicles.

Gypsies and Travellers have visited North Norfolk over many years for seasonal work, taking holidays or pilgrimage to the shrines at Walsingham. Whilst the majority of these visits were without issue, historically some visits involved unauthorised encampments being established on District Council car parks, playing fields, common land and on highway verges, which often generated community tensions.
In response to these events and to comply with legislation contained within the 2004 Housing Act, in 2007 /2008 North Norfolk District Council undertook a process of extensive community engagement on proposals to provide facilities for Gypsies and Travellers visiting North Norfolk. Two dedicated Temporary Stopping Place facilities, at Cromer and Fakenham, were provided with the support of Government funding. Each of these facilities, which are managed by the District Council, has 10 surfaced pitches served by an internal site roadway and where temporary toilet and waste facilities can be provided when the sites are occupied, thereby providing a safe environment for the travelling community, reflective of the seasonal and short- term nature of visits to North Norfolk. Since the provision of these facilities in 2010/11, community tensions around visits to North Norfolk by the travelling community have been significantly reduced such that their provision and operation is widely recognised as a success in community cohesion terms.
The only exception to this strategy was an event in August 2017 when a group of some 23 Gypsy and Traveller caravans occupied the Runton Road Car Park in Cromer and caused significant issues of anti-social behaviour in the town. The scale of this event was extensively reported in local and national media and resulted in the Norfolk Constabulary and Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner for Norfolk attending a high profile public meeting in the town and undertaking a review of the Constabulary’s response to the incident. The “learning” from this incident was for there to be increased local partnership working in managing visits of Gypsies and Travellers to North Norfolk, including “target-hardening” of some public car parks to restrict unauthorised use / occupation based on local intelligence, such that legitimate and authorised use of the car parks could be protected in support of the wider local economy. Such a position was supported through the Council’s previous positive provision of Stopping Place facilities for Gypsies and Travellers visiting the District – such that the decision to install height barriers at some coastal public car parks, which could be “closed” based on intelligence related to the movement of Gypsy and Travellers within Norfolk, was seen as an appropriate and proportionate response to managing an issue which in the height of the summer season could impact upon the local economy, individual businesses and community events.
Height restriction barriers were therefore installed on five coastal or resort car parks provided by the District Council – these being at Runton Road; Cadogan Road and The Meadow in Cromer; Station Approach, Sheringham and Stearmans Yard, Wells-next-the-Sea. Two other car parks operated by the District Council also have fixed height barriers for operational or reasons specified in the Council’s lease of land so as to provide a car park – these are at East Runton (restricting access to approximately half of the car park (grassed area) and a new car park provided in 2020 at Bacton.
With regards the five car parks which have height restriction barriers which can be “closed” at the request of the police based on intelligence about the movement of Gypsies and Travellers within Norfolk, restricted access to these car parks is limited to just a few days of the year – ie there is unrestricted access for most of the time – ie an average of 350 days per year.

With the COVID pandemic over the past two summer seasons, the North Norfolk District has seen very large numbers of staycation visitors, an increasing number of whom have visited in motorhomes and campervans. The Council has received representations from the owners of such vehicles and the Campaign for Real Aires that overnight parking / sleeping should be permitted on its car parks; however the Council does not believe this is appropriate for a number of reasons. These include the fact that the district has a very large number of authorised camping sites – including over 100 certified locations with just five pitches to large commercial sites with leisure facilities, bars and restaurants – therefore catering for a very diverse range of preferences which the Council believes it is unfair to undermine given the investment made in facilities by these businesses; issues of amenity for local residents adjoining public car parks and the costs involved to Council Tax payers in providing additional facilities for motorhome owners such as the provision of water and waste facilities. The District Council has not therefore agreed to revise its Car Park Order or bye-laws to permit overnight camping or sleeping on any of its public car parks by any groups of people or individuals – ie the regulations within the bye-laws apply equally and cannot therefore be seen as discriminating or disadvantaging any group or community, in the way you have suggested.
In terms of the wider accessibility of its public car parks, North Norfolk District Council operates some 25 public car parks – the majority of which serve town centres and are surfaced and with marked spaces; whilst a number of others, all of which are in coastal locations are grassed areas where parking is more informal. All are surface car parks – ie none are underground or multi-storey. This means that in general there are no height restrictions limiting access to motorhomes or vehicles with roof-racks or roof-boxes and indeed five car parks also accommodate coach parking and two accommodate markets on some days of the week, such that they are accessible by HGVs. However, what we have seen this summer with large numbers of motorhome visitors is that some town centre car park layouts with marked bays present some difficulties in terms of turning space for larger or long vehicles such that we did issue advice as to car parks which could more easily accommodate parking of motorhomes – ie on to car parks where parking was more informal with more space for parking and turning. All of the District Council’s surfaced and marked car parks have dedicated accessible parking for Blue Badge holders with wider spaces to allow access by wheelchairs etc, in line with legislative requirements. The majority of the Council’s car parks also have public toilets on or in close proximity to the car parks, albeit they are not open 24/7 due to issues experienced with anti-social behaviour. Toilets provided at the Temporary Stopping Places are for the exclusive use of occupiers of these facilities.
I note that in making your complaint to the District Council you state that you believe the Council’s use of height barriers in the management of its car parks is discriminatory. The District Council does not agree with this position for the reasons outlined above and would further comment that many car parks operated by local authorities and private sector operators do not allow unrestricted or open access to all vehicle users – many underground, multi- storey or shopping centre car parks cannot accommodate motorhomes or other high or indeed long vehicles, many restrict access by vehicles towing trailers etc
.I hope the above addresses the concerns raised in your correspondence, but please do come back to me if you wish to discuss further.
 
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