The Ups & Downs in the Life of a Battery

Ed on Toast

Ed on Toast

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Dull is not the word, of late but fortunately dull but not Baltic !

Now I have a three very nice gel batteries (Habitation) and the associated inverter, C-Tek chargers and solar, all of which I love to bits.

A nice 240 volt breakfast (egg and bacon on toast with two coffees and some washing up water) normally drops levels to maybe 75%

Generally, my motoring NASA BM-1 indicates a level of 105% , I know i can discharge to 20% without damage.

So, my question is simply this:

Is it more healthy to drop it to 70% and let it charge back up to 105% BEFORE hitting it again with the inverter/240 volts OR is it better to hit it before it recharges and so push it down to say, 30% before letting it fully recharge via the solar?

So which option is the most healthy for my batteries in the long term and why? (It is always better to know why and so we Luddites can evolve and grow)

Many thanks

Ed
 
It is never healthy for gel batteries to be discharged past 50% in my opinion. I have used Trojan lead acid and they have performed well even when discharged to below 50%.Trojan batteries have very thick lead plates so don't buckle easily and are the best leisure batteries you can buy.The gel battery was designed for German car manufacturers for engine start batteries as they are safer in a car accident. Gel batteries are expensive and not really designed as leisure batteries.Trojan are expensive but they are designed as leisure/deep cycle and will last for years even when abused.
 
Mr Chainsaw, as much as I respect your depth of knowledge, your comment does not seem to be inline with Victron's own website information.

Maybe I will await further comment by other members

but many thanks for your contribution, much appreciated

:pc:
 
Big prob with gel nomater what folk tell you is if fast charged the gel gets dries of the plates and then they go down hill fast,so dont fit to big charger and dont discharge to fast,other wise there fine.
I would still go for bosch/varta silver for cost and service live as long as you dont cycle down to low,the trojan is best if you must go down to 50%.
If it were me i would rather fit 3 varta/bosh silver power frame which would give the same as two trojans.
 
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Ed on Toast said:
Dull is not the word, of late but fortunately dull but not Baltic !

Now I have a three very nice gel batteries (Habitation) and the associated inverter, C-Tek chargers and solar, all of which I love to bits.

A nice 240 volt breakfast (egg and bacon on toast with two coffees and some washing up water) normally drops levels to maybe 75%

Generally, my motoring NASA BM-1 indicates a level of 105% , I know i can discharge to 20% without damage.

So, my question is simply this:

Is it more healthy to drop it to 70% and let it charge back up to 105% BEFORE hitting it again with the inverter/240 volts OR is it better to hit it before it recharges and so push it down to say, 30% before letting it fully recharge via the solar?

So which option is the most healthy for my batteries in the long term and why? (It is always better to know why and so we Luddites can evolve and grow)

Many thanks

Ed
Click to expand...

Silly question alert......... Why do you need 240v for this?
 
Just a few points here:

Please ignore people who are stating myths about Gel batteries, they have evolved a lot since they were first invented.

The batteries that ED has are deep cycle leisure Gel Carbon batteries made by Exide for motorhomes. They are not to be confused with any other type of gel battery. It would be like saying all cars do 180mph or all cars have 4 seats.

The batteries that ED has can be charged continuously at 25% of their Ah capacity. And bulk charged for shorter periods at a higher rate. He has three batteries connected together so they can be charged at with no issues by his CTEK system. The CTEK system fitted to ED's motorhomer has sensors fitted to the batteries to prevent them overheating and damaging the Gel, however, this is far less common in gel carbon batteries.

The batteries that ED has are made to withstand discharges down to 80%, they are true deep cycle batteries. They carry a 4-year warranty, so if they do not perform as they as supposed to he will be getting some new ones.

To answer your question ED,

There is no benefit in deeply discharging your batteries before recharging, you should keep them as full as you can.
Shallower discharges will most likely extend the life of your batteries beyond the 4-years. There are people still happily using these batteries at 10-years old.
 
Thank you so much for the information.

We are still trying to get our head around our batteries. We have the same batteries has Ed,but only two of them. Whilst we have been over wintering in Greece, the weather has been, for some days at a time, truly abysmal. We have not had enough daylight and at one point our batteries got down to 25% before we realised. I know that this is not good.

We have been running the engine to recharge them whenever the battery monitor gets down to about 50%. Reading the above, does this mean we should be running the engine at 80%? We would be running it then, most evenings?!?!

We have already made the decision, when we get back to the UK, to look at alternate power to support the leisure batteries when the solar is not sufficient… Probably a small Honda generator.
 
Curious .... 105%?

Sounds like the BM1 needs recalibrating so full = 100%. Could be pretty important it you are planning to not worry about the batteries until they go to 20% (or 25% based on Admins comment) as the 20% (25%) might really be under the safe minimum?
 
wildebus said:
Curious .... 105%?

Sounds like the BM1 needs recalibrating so full = 100%. Could be pretty important it you are planning to not worry about the batteries until they go to 20% (or 25% based on Admins comment) as the 20% (25%) might really be under the safe minimum?
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105% is because the charge voltage takes the batteries over the 12.7v full level.
 
Clunegapyears said:
Thank you so much for the information.

We are still trying to get our head around our batteries. We have the same batteries has Ed,but only two of them. Whilst we have been over wintering in Greece, the weather has been, for some days at a time, truly abysmal. We have not had enough daylight and at one point our batteries got down to 25% before we realised. I know that this is not good.

We have been running the engine to recharge them whenever the battery monitor gets down to about 50%. Reading the above, does this mean we should be running the engine at 80%? We would be running it then, most evenings?!?!

We have already made the decision, when we get back to the UK, to look at alternate power to support the leisure batteries when the solar is not sufficient… Probably a small Honda generator.
Click to expand...

Your current dual charge relay most likely charges at 20A, so running the engine will only charge at about 20A.

You can install a larger dual charge relay and cabling and increase the max charge to about 50A, this will decrease the recharge time whilst the engine is running or you are driving.

Your mains charger will most likely be 20-25A, so even with the generator, you won't gain much extra charge current.

Installing more solar panels will help the recharge time in the summer.

You could invest in a eFoy fuel cell.
 
Admin said:
Your current dual charge relay most likely charges at 20A, so running the engine will only charge at about 20A.

You can install a larger dual charge relay and cabling and increase the max charge to about 50A, this will decrease the recharge time whilst the engine is running or you are driving.

Your mains charger will most likely be 20-25A, so even with the generator, you won't gain much extra charge current.

Installing more solar panels will help the recharge time in the summer.

You could invest in a eFoy fuel cell.
Click to expand...


Sorry to be such a numpty. My problem is that I ask a question and don’t always understand the answer. I may test your patience- and sorry Ed for abusing your thread.

How do I check what mains charger I have? The controller is an EP solar duo battery controller and it doesn’t state whether it’s 20/25 or 50.

I understood that gel batteries were slow to charge and slow to discharge. If we double up the controller to 50 does that affect the battery life?

What is the lowest I should let the batteries get before recharging i.e. running the engine.

Like the look of Efoy (silent running, not too heavy, Eu wide distribution of cells etc), but we would have to pay for fitting as not practical. Makes it even more expensive. But if we did go the efoy route ...
Presumably it only generates energy when the batteries fall beow a certain percentage? In other words it tops up silently without any input from us.
We try to avoid poor weather by heading for S Europe during the winter. The efoy would only be needed for odd days where either we don’t drive far and/or rubbish weather. Do the fuel cells last a longtime - shelf life once started.?
Does anyone know of a fitter in the south? Will see what state our finances come Sept when we get back to the UK.

Again sorry to ask what are basic questions and stuff I feel we ought to know.
 
Chainsaw Charlie said:
I have looked at exides own technical specifications and they only say 600 cycles with the curve dropping off rapidly if you deep discharge them so how are they actually so different, a true deep discharge battery would have between 1000 to 1500 cycles.
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600 - 700 FULL cycles down to 80% DOD then after that the battery will only have 80% of its original capacity, it won't just die. These batteries are £152.99 each (with our discount). Trojan t105 work out slightly cheaper per Ah but have similar cycles at 80% DOD.

Trojans have to be maintained and topped up, Exides don't
Trojans have to be vented, Exides don't.

For people who want fit and forget batteries, the Exide Gels are the best.
 
Admin said:
600 - 700 FULL cycles down to 80% DOD then after that the battery will only have 80% of its original capacity, it won't just die. These batteries are £152.99 each (with our discount). Trojan t105 work out slightly cheaper per Ah but have similar cycles at 80% DOD.

Trojans have to be maintained and topped up, Exides don't
Trojans have to be vented, Exides don't.

For people who want fit and forget batteries, the Exide Gels are the best.
Click to expand...

I was going to go 4 x Tojans but too much hassle and not right for high current discharge...
 
By the time you get all the above gel batterys and fancy chargers id say £500 would not be oncommon,i would rateher buy 3 power frame at £300 and replace when nackered & keep smart charger i have.
True gels have came on a bit but i replaced two 9ah gel alarm batterys in w/shop and just as they went out of warrenty they died,i now just use a wet l/acid hooked to a 12v tiny float charger.
As for fitting to campers well each to there own if dosh allows as i see there price seems to be falling over last few years,most folk though will be out money on new charger though.
 
Chainsaw Charlie said:
It is like all things motorhome related some people will kill leisure batteries in a year as they don't understand how to use them , others will kill them in 2 years as they will really use them properly but constantly, just like refillable gas as I read earlier on another forum how a guy said they are great as he only had to put in 8 litres for a years use ?
We use that in a day !
Click to expand...

Yes of course charlie,im light on batterys as mainly gas and derv for heating so only lights bog flush/usb ph charging etc, and a small inverter to power 230v element in carver water heater for sink washing water,also gas to it.
 
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