SORNing your vehicle whilst on a campsite.

[Tezza33]

If its parked up for 6 months then it might be worth the saving but is it worth the potential hassle with local plod

Rich

If you are on a campsite there is no hassle with local plod because they are not interested as you are not breaking any laws neither ours or theirs, nobody is saying that you can drive it and I would not risk it even to the local supermarket, the fine for sorning and then using are far higher than just using without tax but if you are 'parked' for six months without seeing a road then why do you need to pay to use one?

 

[John H]

if you are 'parked' for six months without seeing a road then why do you need to pay to use one?

Because your definition of a road is not necessary the one that the law uses! But I agree that the local plod are not likely to be interested. The point at issue here is whether or not you will be insured in the event of an accident and if the insurance companies have a let-out you can be sure they will use it. I don't know how much you value your motorhome but I want mine to be properly insured at all times!

 

[Tezza33]

The law says your drive is not a public highway but a campsite is. I repeat - you may think that is illogical but it IS the law. You are free to make whatever decision you wish but it pays to be aware of the potential consequences. I have never fallen foul of the law in this respect - because I am always prepared. If you choose to defy the law you may get away with it - or you may not. It is up to you; I know what advice I will always give. With the greatest possible respect, your opinion (and mine!) is irrelevant.

I am not arguing with your logic but I would still argue my pitch that I pay for is mine and not a public highway whether the rest of the campsite is, because I am paying for that little plot then nobody else is even allowed to walk across it so it cannot be public access, maybe something to be decided in the High Court if the Insurance does not pay out because as much as I see why you are saying it I do not agree

 

[John H]

I am not arguing with your logic but I would still argue my pitch that I pay for is mine and not a public highway whether the rest of the campsite is, because I am paying for that little plot then nobody else is even allowed to walk across it so it cannot be public access, maybe something to be decided in the High Court if the Insurance does not pay out because as much as I see why you are saying it I do not agree

You may be prepared to challenge any decision through the courts but I have better things to do with my time and my money!

PS people are allowed to walk across your pitch. You may not like it but they are. I have witnessed an irate camper complaining to the site owner about someone walking across his pitch and the very calm reply of the owner was "It is not your pitch; it is mine. You may hire it for a while if I agree to let you but you have no rights over it that I do not give you".

 

[Steve C]

So John as I understand it from what you say.
My 5 acre field, fenced all around and with one closed gate, is private property.
If I take payment from one tent or caravan to stay overnight, the gate is still closed, it becomes a public highway?
Will I expect the local authority to contribute for upkeep and improvement ?

 

[Tezza33]

Because your definition of a road is not necessary the one that the law uses! But I agree that the local plod are not likely to be interested. The point at issue here is whether or not you will be insured in the event of an accident and if the insurance companies have a let-out you can be sure they will use it. I don't know how much you value your motorhome but I want mine to be properly insured at all times!

My Insurance Company (Saga) are quite happy for me to have no tax on a campsite so no problem, the only good thing about discussions like this is that everybody should know now to check with their own Insurance Company so nobody gets caught out

 

[John H]

So John as I understand it from what you say.
My 5 acre field, fenced all around and with one closed gate, is private property.
If I take payment from one tent or caravan to stay overnight, the gate is still closed, it becomes a public highway?
Will I expect the local authority to contribute for upkeep and improvement ?

You understand wrong. If you take payment without having a licence then you are breaking a different law! Also, the legal definition of what constitutes a public highway has nothing to do with who is responsible for its upkeep. For example, under the Road Traffic Act you can be guilty of a traffic offence on a private road even though that road is maintained at private expense.

 

[John H]

My Insurance Company (Saga) are quite happy for me to have no tax on a campsite so no problem, the only good thing about discussions like this is that everybody should know now to check with their own Insurance Company so nobody gets caught out

That is precisely the point I have been making!

 

[Tezza33]

You may be prepared to challenge any decision through the courts but I have better things to do with my time and my money!

PS people are allowed to walk across your pitch. You may not like it but they are. I have witnessed an irate camper complaining to the site owner about someone walking across his pitch and the very calm reply of the owner was "It is not your pitch; it is mine. You may hire it for a while if I agree to let you but you have no rights over it that I do not give you".

I am only thinking of the pitch I use for long term in Spain, it is my pitch, it isn't a CS or CL it is a properly marked out pitch with hedges across the back and down both sides and the site owners do not think as the ones you quoted do, there is nowhere to walk through it and if anybody tried I would not be a 'pleasant person', of course that is if the dog on the chain didn't get them first, seriously though, on these Premium Campsites people are not allowed to walk across your pitch, totally different from unmarked pitches where you do not have a boundary, my time is free these days and as my money is better off staying mine and I have survived 63yrs without paying through the nose for anything why should I start now, as I said, Saga are happy and that is good enough for me, somebody else posted that Safeguard are happy as well, perhaps everybody should phone their Insurers and ask then we can get a definitive answer, meanwhile I am happy to save a little bit without risking anything

 

[Tezza33]

That is precisely the point I have been making!

Fully agree with that, it is good to talk View attachment 26613

 

[El Veterano]

What is a 'road'? « Scroll to the bottom - caravan parks are designated to be places to which the public have access and are therefore "roads" within the meaning of the law. People may not like it; people may think it is illogical; people may think it is nonsense - but it IS the law.

It is possible to pick as many definitions of a 'road' as one likes, and it can probably be construed to read in favor of whichever party feels is justified.
Here's a couple:
Access to the Public
To fall within S192[1] RTA 1988 the road must be one to which the public have access. Whether or not the public have access to a road is a question of fact. If a member of the public has to over come some form of physical barrier or act in defiance of a prohibition then that will not be considered a road to which the public have access - Cox v White [1976] RTR 248
A sign on a private road which stated that 'Trespassers will be prosecuted' was held to be a sufficient prohibition to members of the public to exclude the location from S192 1988 - R v Beaumont [1964] Crim LR 665
A car park is not a road - Clarke v Kato [1998]

The Clark v. Kato case and also the Cutter v. Eagle Star case, both go into very long winded dialogue as to how both individuals insurance companies were trying to get out of paying compensation as they did not consider the accidents to occur on a 'road'. The first was an accident to a car parked on the side of a kerb in a car park and the second was an incident in a parking space in a multi-storey car park. It ended up going to appeal and they found:
In conclusion, it was held that in neither of the appeals did the incident in question occur on a "road". They were not places designed or dedicated for the passage of vehicles, and neither in character nor in function did they qualify to he "roads".

This of course is really a load of nonsensical jargon to keep the solicitors pockets lined. But at the end of the day I think that if a motorhome is parked on its allocated plot of a secure campsite, probably with a barrier, then it is unlikely that it would be considered to be on a road. If however said motorhome was to be driving upon the service roads within the campsite, then that may result in another long winded battle for the solicitors. :wave:

 

[Tezza33]

But at the end of the day I think that if a motorhome is parked on its allocated plot of a secure campsite, probably with a barrier, then it is unlikely that it would be considered to be on a road. If however said motorhome was to be driving upon the service roads within the campsite, then that may result in another long winded battle for the solicitors. :wave:

I would fully agree with that after reading JohnH's argument but still following my logic,

 

[John H]

It is possible to pick as many definitions of a 'road' as one likes

Of course you can - but the law states that a campsite qualifies! You can argue endlessly in court - but I would rather spend my money in other ways.

 

[John H]

I am only thinking of the pitch I use for long term in Spain, it is my pitch, it isn't a CS or CL it is a properly marked out pitch with hedges across the back and down both sides and the site owners do not think as the ones you quoted do, there is nowhere to walk through it and if anybody tried I would not be a 'pleasant person', of course that is if the dog on the chain didn't get them first, seriously though, on these Premium Campsites people are not allowed to walk across your pitch, totally different from unmarked pitches where you do not have a boundary, my time is free these days and as my money is better off staying mine and I have survived 63yrs without paying through the nose for anything why should I start now, as I said, Saga are happy and that is good enough for me, somebody else posted that Safeguard are happy as well, perhaps everybody should phone their Insurers and ask then we can get a definitive answer, meanwhile I am happy to save a little bit without risking anything

The incident I am referring to also occurred in Spain - on a site with hedged pitches with well-defined boundaries. Your rights to occupy that pitch are only what the site owner grants you and I would be amazed if there were a clause in the rental agreement (which most people never bother to read) that said nobody other than you could walk onto the pitch. What some people think are their rights are not rights at all and such stuff is the cause of many a neighbour dispute which only the solicitors benefit from - but I'm not complaining because my wife made a good living out of them! :dance:

 

[maxi77]

You also seem to miss the point of different ships different cap tallies, here in Portugal the concept of SORN does not exist, all vehicles must be taxed at all times. It is also going to be interesting to see how some countries live with the reality that UK vehicles no longer have a tax disc t idicate they are tax paid. In my experience the French Gendarmerie and customs do enjoy finding fault and thus the opportunity to tax and fine 'les ROSTBIF'

 

[John H]

There has definitely been misinterpretation here but you picked the wrong person! . You clearly don't understand that in England, case law IS part of the legal system The Sources of the Legal System . Thus you have answered your own question - the legal basis for considering a campsite a road is included most definitely in the section of my link that you reproduced. It is not, as you so eloquently put it, a few cases that the solicitors thought might represent the law! :wacko:

 

[SteveM]

The taxation of vehicles, the investigation and prosecution of avoidance is a DVLA matter.

 

[John H]

If you understand it why did you question it?

And you still do not understand case law. Let me try to explain in simple terms. Most law is determined by Statute. In this case, the Statute (RTA) states that offences may be committed on land to which the public has access and gives one or two examples (eg car parks). It does not specify caravan sites. Hence judges have to interpret the law. Judges in a high court have determined that campsites DO constitute public places (including pitches!). That decision is BINDING on all future cases unless or until it is overturned by a higher court (and the Supreme Court is the highest we have) or it is modified or replaced by a new Statute passed by Parliament. So, until someone changes the law, campsites ARE public places but your drive is not. Is that clear?

 

[SteveM]

As helpful as your sentence on the matter then I would suggest.

 

[slippers]

Nurse, he's out of bed again!