Scarborough traders complain

[ellieloy]

but surely these campers are tourists who use the local shops and facilities just likeany one else - and Iguess most day trippers leave by early evening ????? what is their problem?

If a councillor has a financial interest he should be obliged to declare it and not get involved in influencing any debate!

 

[ellieloy]

Thinking a bit more - we have a holiday cottage on the Moray Firth in Scotland (we mostly use our MH on trips to and from it - taking in the scenic routes) Local people could accuse us of having a local property without living there, but we let the cottage to visitors and feed into the local tourism industry and economy. All our repairs and renovations have been undertaken by local craftsmen and we employ a gardner, housekeeper, window cleaner too.

These days ts a case often of the green eyed monster - greed. Folk just worry you might have a bigger slice of the cake than you. Maybe they should take their head out of the dark insular place and work to bake a bigger cake - there is enough to go around for everyone.

Sorry - I will get off my soap box now

 

[John H]

If a councillor has a financial interest he should be obliged to declare it and not get involved in influencing any debate!

Under the Local Government Act 2000, they are obliged to do so but the problem is that the maximum penalties are rarely meted out (possibly because it is the Standards Committee of the Council who makes the judgement!). Under the proposed Localism Bill, it is likely that the offence will be turned into a Criminal (rather than Civil) one and the judgement will be removed from the Councils themselves. Perhaps then we will see more large fines and five-year disqualifications - perhaps?

 

[donkey too]

Also Under the Local Government Act 2000, You and any member of the public can go into the council office without prior notice and see the councillors declaration of intrests book. S those interested go and have a look.

 

[jezport]

I didn't get a reply from my email, I am not surprised as I left them no easy answers!

I actually think that the article may have been written on a day when news stories were scarce so one letter to the paper was embellished somewhat until it made a story.

So the best thing is to just go about our wild camping and report back any developments on this thread.

 

[Bernard Jones]

we stopped in scarboro last weekend in the sea life center car park, £5 for 24 hours pay by card or cash
sea view and pub couple of yards away
no probs at all:banana:

Thanks, not seen that one. I was in Whitby and usually overnight on the street but last week there was not a space to be found. So I went on the car park above Whitby Spa. Thats when I first noticed the '1.5 ton limit' and 'no overnight sleeping' was not on the new type pay@display machines with the solar panel on top (it was still on the old type pay and display machine without the solar panel which was covered over with a black bag awaiting removal) I stayed there overnight - free until 9am, no bother at all.
So when I got to Scarborough I looked at the new pay & display machines there and found them the same, no restrictions.

 

[Channa]

All very interesting? unless a turn of events occurs it looks like I will be back in the UK November and will be spending a lot of time in Filey where my parents live.

Ok it was March 2010, but I noticed on the car parks there the signs prohibiting overnight sleeping and no cooking had the 50 quid fine thing covered over with gaffer tape

I wondered if it was a disgruntled camper but upon reflection it seems could have been the council.

Looks like a fine view from the country park then in November :dance:

Channa

 

[fairytooth]

Please write to the Council

I have put my complaint in writing to Scarborough BC and here is their reply (through the parking manager) together with my further response is below for your information. You can add your views by email too and when they have had enough of us writing and parking, they might just do something constructive .......... !!!


I refer to your comment in relation to your perception that Scarborough Borough Council are hostile towards disabled and motorhomes drivers.

I can assure you that this is not the case.

Scarborough Borough Council have decided that all classes of road users have to pay parking charges on the off street Pay and Display car parks in the Borough. This is not unique to Scarborough, with many Councils across the country opting to charge blue badge holders in their car parks.

However there are over 6000 alternative parking spaces available for disabled drivers in Scarborough, with free unlimited parking available in on street pay and display areas and time limited disc bays. I have enclosed a copy of The Blue Badge Scheme leaflet, which I hope will assist you when making further choices for parking arrangements.

With relation to motorhomes uunfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street. Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities, however general parking is permitted in all car parks with larger vehicles encouraged to use coach parking spaces.

You may park your vehicle provided that you do not sleep in the vehicle, however your vehicle should be removed to an appropriate camp site should you wish to camp. Please click on the link below to view sites in the area.

Camping and caravan sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey

Should you require any assistance on parking related matters in relation to the Borough of Scarborough, please do not hesitate to contact the parking services department on (01723) 232323 who will be happy to assist you.

Yours Sincerely


Jane Wilson
Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey


MY REPLY

Dear Ms Wilson

Thank you for your reply. Would you please direct me to the legislation which does not permit overnight sleeping?

From the views conveyed in your reply I feel you must be unaware of the growing concern among those who legitimately and routinely take their holidays in motorhomes. We feel that your council is, as is often our experience, acting ultra vires in coming to decisions to exclude certain portions of society and we are taking the matter further through European legislation. If you are as sure as you seem that the no overnight ‘sleeping’ rule has the force of law, I would be most grateful to examine its legitimacy.

Please would you note for the benefit of those who decided to exclude overnight motorhomes, based on lack of running water and drainage facilities, have erred in their judgement because motorhomes do not routinely require such facilities and there are largely self-sufficient for often several days at a time. I will happily direct you towards the decided legal cases where council decisions based on incorrect assumptions are indeed ultra vires and there illegal. You would be well advised to ensure that the council legal advisers are reminded of ‘Wednesbury Unreasonableness’ if they know of the famous case.

I hope therefore that you can understand our perception that your council’s decision to effectively exclude motorhome users in a matter contrary to other local authorities (and indeed most of Europe) is totally discriminatory (directly and indirectly) towards us.

Also, as a disabled badge holder I will park my vehicle free of charge for 3 hours at a time on your roads with double yellow lines, where I believe it is still free to do so. This may not be where it is most convenient to the council.

I am circulating your response via the web to other members of my motorhomers club and I anticipate that you may receive further correspondence.

 

[jezport]

I posted my letter earlier in this thread and as I have said I got no reply. I covered all her expected responses so I think she has had to go and get further advice :lol-053:

 

[kimbowbill]

I have put my complaint in writing to Scarborough BC and here is their reply (through the parking manager) together with my further response is below for your information. You can add your views by email too and when they have had enough of us writing and parking, they might just do something constructive .......... !!!


I refer to your comment in relation to your perception that Scarborough Borough Council are hostile towards disabled and motorhomes drivers.

I can assure you that this is not the case.

Scarborough Borough Council have decided that all classes of road users have to pay parking charges on the off street Pay and Display car parks in the Borough. This is not unique to Scarborough, with many Councils across the country opting to charge blue badge holders in their car parks.

However there are over 6000 alternative parking spaces available for disabled drivers in Scarborough, with free unlimited parking available in on street pay and display areas and time limited disc bays. I have enclosed a copy of The Blue Badge Scheme leaflet, which I hope will assist you when making further choices for parking arrangements.

With relation to motorhomes uunfortunately Scarborough Borough Council do not allow sleeping overnight in our car parks or on street. Members of the Council have made this decision as there is not any appropriate facilities for vehicles to park overnight. ie Running Water or waste disposal facilities, however general parking is permitted in all car parks with larger vehicles encouraged to use coach parking spaces.

You may park your vehicle provided that you do not sleep in the vehicle, however your vehicle should be removed to an appropriate camp site should you wish to camp. Please click on the link below to view sites in the area.

Camping and caravan sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey

Should you require any assistance on parking related matters in relation to the Borough of Scarborough, please do not hesitate to contact the parking services department on (01723) 232323 who will be happy to assist you.

Yours Sincerely


Jane Wilson
Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey


MY REPLY

Dear Ms Wilson

Thank you for your reply. Would you please direct me to the legislation which does not permit overnight sleeping?

From the views conveyed in your reply I feel you must be unaware of the growing concern among those who legitimately and routinely take their holidays in motorhomes. We feel that your council is, as is often our experience, acting ultra vires in coming to decisions to exclude certain portions of society and we are taking the matter further through European legislation. If you are as sure as you seem that the no overnight ‘sleeping’ rule has the force of law, I would be most grateful to examine its legitimacy.

Please would you note for the benefit of those who decided to exclude overnight motorhomes, based on lack of running water and drainage facilities, have erred in their judgement because motorhomes do not routinely require such facilities and there are largely self-sufficient for often several days at a time. I will happily direct you towards the decided legal cases where council decisions based on incorrect assumptions are indeed ultra vires and there illegal. You would be well advised to ensure that the council legal advisers are reminded of ‘Wednesbury Unreasonableness’ if they know of the famous case.

I hope therefore that you can understand our perception that your council’s decision to effectively exclude motorhome users in a matter contrary to other local authorities (and indeed most of Europe) is totally discriminatory (directly and indirectly) towards us.

Also, as a disabled badge holder I will park my vehicle free of charge for 3 hours at a time on your roads with double yellow lines, where I believe it is still free to do so. This may not be where it is most convenient to the council.

I am circulating your response via the web to other members of my motorhomers club and I anticipate that you may receive further correspondence.

Nice one fairythooth, that will have her in a pickle,

Jen

 

[kimbowbill]

All very interesting? unless a turn of events occurs it looks like I will be back in the UK November and will be spending a lot of time in Filey where my parents live.

Ok it was March 2010, but I noticed on the car parks there the signs prohibiting overnight sleeping and no cooking had the 50 quid fine thing covered over with gaffer tape

I wondered if it was a disgruntled camper but upon reflection it seems could have been the council.

Looks like a fine view from the country park then in November :dance:

Channa

Hi channa

Nice to see you are still with us, thought you had fell off the face of the earth :banana:, I was in filey last week and your right about the sign, i stayed in the country park with no problems, there was also a couple of other vans parked up, a council van came round and checked the grounds then two police vans cruised round at differnt times, nothing was said. I usually go up in November, might see thee for a coffee or two n:cool1:

Jen

 

[Channa]

Hi Jen

I have one of them cafetiere thingies so no probs with a coffee if all else fails I am sure my mum will make us a nescafe.

On a more serious note and to keep things OT I find the councils explanation interesting.

The bit the council has made the decision to ban motorhomes on the basis we allegedly have no running water or waste dispôsal facilities.

If this is their stated and only concern and we can prove it is unfounded, can we in return expect a complete reversal on their currently adopted policy ?

If we can get a yes then

So how about this as a collective idea, contact the council and a few of us close to Scarborough set them a challenge ?

We visit a car park of their choice for a weekend and whilst under their microscope prove the sustainability and minimal impact of motorhomes ? Environmentally and illustrate not a social nuisance.

In the meantime assimilate a dossier that clearlyand irrevocably illustrates the benefits of the motorhome community to the local economy.

Channa

 

[donkey too]

Great idea and why keep it just for scarb? A handy little booklet would be handy to give to questioning people.

 

[kimbowbill]

Hi Jen

I have one of them cafetiere thingies so no probs with a coffee if all else fails I am sure my mum will make us a nescafe.

On a more serious note and to keep things OT I find the councils explanation interesting.

The bit the council has made the decision to ban motorhomes on the basis we allegedly have no running water or waste dispôsal facilities.

If this is their stated and only concern and we can prove it is unfounded, can we in return expect a complete reversal on their currently adopted policy ?

If we can get a yes then

So how about this as a collective idea, contact the council and a few of us close to Scarborough set them a challenge ?

We visit a car park of their choice for a weekend and whilst under their microscope prove the sustainability and minimal impact of motorhomes ? Environmentally and illustrate not a social nuisance.

In the meantime assimilate a dossier that clearlyand irrevocably illustrates the benefits of the motorhome community to the local economy.

Channa

I'm up for that, anybody else fancies the challenge?

 

[refurbisher]

Count us in, one of our favourite local overnights, shame it has to come to this. Maybe I should get a 4x4, a chrome caravan, a few milk churns and a good mucky tan, then not even kryptonite could touch me! :ninja:

 

[jezport]

Has anyone had a letter from the council stuck on their windscreen threatening them off wild camping in the area? I had one in Bridlington about 3 years ago.

I really think that unless anyone is threatened by the council we should just keep on doing as we do and wildcamp. By attracting council and press attention we may be shooting our selves in the foot and make them take action.

 

[cooljules]

i would be up for this if i have the diesel at the time. for a newbie like me, its things like this that means i can spend time in the fresh air with the dogs as i cant afford campsites etc. mind you one of my dogs is bloomin ugly so better hide him away lol

 

[Firefox]

Well I think they may be able to make a bye-law which says "No overnight sleeping" but in effect, such a law is unenforceable.

With the curtains drawn, you could be sitting at the table in your van using the laptop or reading each night, as I have been known to do on numerous occasions.

I know my sleep patterns are different to the average persons, but that's what could happen. They have no proof that you were sitting in a parked vehicle or sleeping in a parked vehicle. And there can be no requirement to "answer the door" at that time of night for them to gather any evidence either way.

So long as the only thing in contact with the surface is the tires, the vehicle is parked, not camped. Of course that excludes levelling ramps, door steps, tables, chairs and BBQ's but that's easily enough done.

 

[refurbisher]

Don't hide him away cooljules, get a pic up of him, we need a mascot for our campain

 

[cooljules]

Don't hide him away cooljules, get a pic up of him, we need a mascot for our campain

Hes bloomin ugly, this is him a couple of years ago when me and him was camping at Ruegen, the german island. for some reason all the girls fall for him...no idea why!!