Scarborough traders complain

[yorkslass]

hi just wanted to pick up on the cost of campsites and the attitude of the owners. this week on our local tv there was a report saying how much tourism is up in yorkshire compared to the rest of the country. in the same report a woman who managed holiday cottages said her members were reporting a downturn. a friend was looking to rent a cottage in whitby for 3 or 4 nights in january,they wanted over six hundred pounds, no wonder they arnt renting them. if all of these people made their services more affordable then folk might be prepared to use them more.

 

[kimbowbill]

hi just wanted to pick up on the cost of campsites and the attitude of the owners. this week on our local tv there was a report saying how much tourism is up in yorkshire compared to the rest of the country. in the same report a woman who managed holiday cottages said her members were reporting a downturn. a friend was looking to rent a cottage in whitby for 3 or 4 nights in january,they wanted over six hundred pounds, no wonder they arnt renting them. if all of these people made their services more affordable then folk might be prepared to use them more.

This is true Yorklass, my sister has rented a house just outside filey next week for the family, last week it was £800 pw, this week its £1700, what a jump,school holiday rip off.

Jen xx

 

[maureenandtom]

Hi Just thought i would pass on the response from jane wilson, Parking manager SBC,

Dear Miss Morris
I refer to your email to Stuart Clark, which has been forwarded to me for a response.
The Councils current policy on Motor home parking in its off street car parks is that no person should use any part of a parking place for sleeping, camping or cooking.
The policy is decided on by elected members. Scarborough Borough Council have encountered problems with motor homes parking and leaving behind rubbish and on occasions even emptying chemical toilets. The Council have had to spend large amounts of money with the associated clean up.
The Council also receive a number of complaints from traders, as alluded to in your email to Cllr Watson. It is unfortunate that a small majority of motorhome owners tarnish the reputation of others, however due to the problems encountered this policy remains in place. Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area which cater specifically for motor homes, the council’s car parks do not have any basic facilities including running water. You may wish to browse the site below for low cost alternative campsites other than the one you refer to.Camping and Caravan Sites : Council Services for Scarborough Borough, Whitby and Filey Whilst I understand that you would have preferred a more positive response, I trust this clarifies the situation.

Yours Sincerely

Jane Wilson
Deputy Parking Manager
Scarborough Borough Council
Tel (01723) 383582
Scarborough Borough Council Homepage - Whitby | Scarborough | Filey

I've emailed Scarborough Borough Council and I've sent them a copy of a booklet I prepared for another council a couple of years ago. I didn't update it or amend it. This should let you look at it. Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download I bypassed Jane Wilson to try to reach the tourist industry decision makers.

I bypassed Jane for two reasons. The first is that Jane advertises herself as a Parking Manager. Her job and her thoughts are to control parking. My limited experience of trying persuasion with local authorities is that tourist people are enthusiastic about expanding their industry but they always come second to the parking people. If anybody can see a way of persuading Jane to put some effort into changing parking rules then I'd be keen to join in an attempt.

Second. She's a jobsworth. She says twice about the rules being the responsibility of members – by which I think she means councillors. She says, “The policy is decided on by elected members.” She also says, “Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area . . .” She only missed out, “It's more than my job's worth to . . .” My feeling is that trying to persuade Jane is a lost cause.

There's a third, minor, reason. I instinctively feel that underlings will put more effort into a question if they think their superiors have an interest in it.

 

[John H]

Second. She's a jobsworth. She says twice about the rules being the responsibility of members – by which I think she means councillors. She says, “The policy is decided on by elected members.” She also says, “Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area . . .” She only missed out, “It's more than my job's worth to . . .” My feeling is that trying to persuade Jane is a lost cause.

I don't know who this Jane is but for someone in her lowly position in the council hierarchy there is absolutely nothing wrong with this reply. All policy matters are the responsibility of elected members, as she says. It is the duty of officers to carry out those policy decisions. That is their job description. To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair. I agree with you that it is best to try to get to a senior officer because it is part of their job to advise members when they are making their decisions, so if you can get them on your side they are likely to write their next advice to members in a more favourable light. If, on the other hand, those senior officers give you a "nothing I can do about it, mate" reply then by all means call them jobsworths - they would then deserve it; Jane does not.

 

[jezport]

The ideal way to deal with this would be to get a petition together.

It may mean a few of us spending a few days in Scarborough but I would be up for it.

We are heading over there later this afternoon, I will ask shop keepers what they think about the situation.

 

[Pollik]

Members also felt that allowing overnight parking would take away income from the many camp sites in the area which cater specifically for motor homes,

This sounds a bit like the original councillor who suggested that we should contact the parking people. An example of skewed thinking. Most wilders are more likely to take their spending money to another town rather than be ripped by campsites charging for services we neither want nor need.

There is a real culture problem to be overcome in the UK which already loses out in the tourist stakes. It seems that, in the UK tourist industry, the business is about selling what they have rather than selling what people want. My feeling would be to ignore Scarborough and to work more with those places that are capable of thinking flexibly and to help them get the best out of their aires by, for example, ensuring they are listed in Vicarious. I am still interested in trying to help get things moving, but I can't really do it while I am on the road (not due back until October) unless I can find decent solutions to my power issues and to my internet connectivitiy.

I still think the way forward is to sell the idea on the basis of local trade and that the basis that so many countries in Europe are decades ahead of Britain...maybe we can talk to authorities in other countries to find out their rationale and to put that to UK authorities. Perhaps we could survey motorhomers (not just members here) and find out where they use their MHs most and why. Explore ways of the various MH groups working together on this as a single issue.

But I am really not sure it will work in the UK - the mindset is different. We don't have aires, we seem to have fewer roadside picnic areas and none at all on motorways, we build a channel tunnel that you can't drive through. We don't really seem to like our holiday makers or motorists. I found that the Netherlands seems to be fairly anti-wilding, and maybe Belgium, but so far everywhere else has positively welcomed us (France, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway in my personal experience) I am not sure the battle to change the culture of small mindedness in the UK is necessarily worth effort...or perhaps it is just that I may not have the energy for it. I have spent the last 14 years on a campaign trail and I am all campaigned out.



Polly

 

[maureenandtom]

John is almost entirely right. I have said so all along. We really and truly do not want our lowly employees making decisions. They administer our rules on our behalf. We'll tell them, not have them tell us. To have this agreement is music to my ears.

Councils in general earn my contempt. Look at this one and the way they wriggle.

First an elected member gets a little free publicity by making a statement to the press.

Second a member of the public (from here) challenges him.

Third, the elected member refers the member of the public to a paid official.

Fourth, the paid official says there are rules and these rules are made by elected members.

Fifth – well there isn't a fifth. The circle is now closed. Elected member passes buck to official who passes buck to elected member.

I have seen councils acting like this before. Keep things going until we all lose the will to live. It is a successful policy. I have already forgotten who Stuart Clark and Councillor Watson fit into the picture.

As for being a jobsworth. I stand by that. John repeats only the justification that all jobsworths give. “To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair”.

Polly. Off topic. Nowhere else to ask. You a sim pilot?

 

[John H]

John is almost entirely right. I have said so all along. We really and truly do not want our lowly employees making decisions. They administer our rules on our behalf. We'll tell them, not have them tell us. To have this agreement is music to my ears.

Councils in general earn my contempt. Look at this one and the way they wriggle.

First an elected member gets a little free publicity by making a statement to the press.

Second a member of the public (from here) challenges him.

Third, the elected member refers the member of the public to a paid official.

Fourth, the paid official says there are rules and these rules are made by elected members.

Fifth – well there isn't a fifth. The circle is now closed. Elected member passes buck to official who passes buck to elected member.

I have seen councils acting like this before. Keep things going until we all lose the will to live. It is a successful policy. I have already forgotten who Stuart Clark and Councillor Watson fit into the picture.

As for being a jobsworth. I stand by that. John repeats only the justification that all jobsworths give. “To criticise her for doing what she is paid to and criticise her for not doing what she is unable to do within the remit of her job do is unfair”.

Polly. Off topic. Nowhere else to ask. You a sim pilot?

You may think it good sport to shoot the lowly messenger rather than addressing the real problem but I doubt that many would agree with you. Give the people at the top all the hell you want but your attitude to those who have no freedom to change the rules is nothing short of bullying.

And, yes, there is a "fifth" - it is to take the matter up with either senior officers who can influence council decisions or the leadership of the council who make those decisions. But if you do it in an agressive way you will probably get nowhere. As has been said several times on this forum (by me and many others) the way to get things changed is to act responsibly and reasonably - it may not always work but the alternative is guaranteed not to.

 

[maureenandtom]

Then you will be truly thankful, as am I , that I have been blessed with a placid nature.



Already taken the fifth. You should have noticed that. I'm hurt.

 

[Pollik]

The council worker is paid to be the face of the council and to act as a buffer between the public and anyone who can make decisions. As with any other job, she has a choice about it. Having said that, I personally wouldn't give her a hard time unless, in her own capacity, she placed barriers in the way of finding a resolution to the problem.

@maureenandtom Yes, I am, but although I joined Avsim (is that where you saw me?), I don't play online. I might one day though. I take it you are a sim pilot too?



Polly

 

[jezport]

We have spent the weekend on Marine drive.

Some clever person has put some large boulders at the back of some of the spaces where a longer van can reverse back. I think that it is a stupid thing to do as there are lots of parallel spaces that cant be blocked. These are next to the cafe to the south of the skate park. I wonder whether the correct consents were carried out before these were put there,

Friday night there were only about 7 vans the on the front, we has a drive at around 10.00 AM and even visited the sea life centre where there were no vans.
Saturday there were 4 vans in the water treatment pull in and about 12 others spread about.

We spoke to Steve, a local trader who was running the crazy golf. He told me that trade was hard enough without frightening motorhomes away and said that he had not read anything in the local papers about the issue.

We had a good weekend, bought ice creams both days, played crazy golf, had fish and chips and spent money on fishing nets and other food, so I feel we were good for Scarborough.

Here is this mornings sunrise form our van.

 

[maureenandtom]

No, I wouldn't give her a hard time either. John is just being provocative. I was doing no more than making an explanation of why I decided to bypass her when making my own representations to Scarborough council though I wouldn't dissuade others from continuing their correspondence with her if they feel that is the best route. For myself I see no point in talking to Jane when she has made it very clear that decisions aren't hers.

If anybody would like to read my little booklet to Scarborough, and other councils, I will be pleased to hear of any amendments anyone might recommend. There is a time for assertiveness and a time for persuasion. Persuasion with the tourist people and, maybe when the time is right, assertiveness with parking people. Persuasion always first.

Polly. Ex R/L but now retired. Flightgear sim is the nearest I get these days; you might google FGUK and have a look. The multiplayer is fun and I'm trying making videos now - that's fun too. We've had others here flying with virtual airlines. Not for me but fun for some.

Tom

 

[John H]

The council worker is paid to be the face of the council and to act as a buffer between the public and anyone who can make decisions. As with any other job, she has a choice about it. Having said that, I personally wouldn't give her a hard time unless, in her own capacity, she placed barriers in the way of finding a resolution to the problem.

Polly

Yes she has a choice - these days it is probably a choice between a job and no job! But I agree with you that if she had put a positive barrier in the way then she would have deserved criticism. I'm sorry but I get annoyed whenever I see bullying and to call someone a "jobsworth" (especially in the aggressive way that Tom did in his post) for this kind of thing counts as bullying in my book. It is also a waste of effort when you could be tackling the right people instead.

 

[jezport]

If anybody would like to read my little booklet to Scarborough, and other councils, I will be pleased to hear of any amendments anyone might recommend. There is a time for assertiveness and a time for persuasion. Persuasion with the tourist people and, maybe when the time is right, assertiveness with parking people. Persuasion always first.


Tom

Yes I would like to see your booklet

 

[maureenandtom]

Deleted - duplicate post below

 

[maureenandtom]

Yes I would like to see your booklet

Hi Jez,

Thanks. It came about a few years ago when I tried to think how to approach councils and tourist authorities. Reading it now it seems a little naive but I updated it a couple of years ago for a Lake District council and I haven't updated it since.

Booklet for Copeland as PDF.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download

The idea behind it is that we think of ourselves as a product and we have to sell ourselves. If I did have a product to sell I'd produce a glossy brochure and tell my potential customers how much they and I would both profit. I guess, if I was to do the same again, I'd not stress so much how other countries were doing but think of more advantages for the customer here and now. Say, how much control they would now have over us if they could herd us into one place, I'd look up *****'s recent article in which he told us how much his last holiday in Europe had cost him and multiply it by Phil's poll of how many nights we spend in the van and . . . oh, I don't know but I still think that approach was a good approach.

Almost always, initially, it had a good reception from those interested in tourism but it always fell on deaf ears when it came to those interested in parking and the parking people always won - or I heard no more - or I was promised that I would hear and then didn't.

It does become disheartening.

Thoughts please?

Oh, I haven't always sent it as a PDF document. Sometimes I've printed it and self-bound it. Made a good amateur job of it too.

Edit: That link offers you the choice of viewing the document or downloading it. If you select View then you only get half; if you want to read it all then you have to download.

 

[Pollik]

Thanks Tom...I will take a look at FGUK when I get a solid connection.

At the time of posting this, I haven't read your PDF in full, but it looks nicely set out and I agree that appealing to the economics is the way to try to move forwards. There are many ways to approach the problem - councils making their area attractive to tourists (as in France, Germany...), existing campsites making facilities available at much reduced rate for MHs who don't want to camp (as in Belgium, Sweden....) , garages and supermarkets offering free services (as in France, Norway, Finland etc)......there must be other approaches too. Making sure that MH services are on the various lists that exist (Vicarious is the most obvious, but there are others)....if you don't let people know you have services, you won't attract people to them.

I know I keep saying this, but what I think is needed is a dedicated group (preferably supported by the hobby and support MH groups) run by someone with the energy, enthusiasm, resources, time, charisma to press the case. And to keep pressing the case. If Scarborough is run by numpties, start with Canterbury (why is their aire not all that widely known about?). Talk to other councils who might listen more sympathetically.

Find innovative ways round legal problems (eg signage). Speak to Tescos, Waitrose, Shell, BP. Speak to campsite organisations and campsites. Speak to National Trust, Forestry Commission.

The bottom line for me is that it works with varying degrees of success in other countries and there is no reason it shouldn't work in the UK - we just need to sow the seeds in the right places.

My own skills are probably with words, lateral thinking, ideas and thinking problems through. Like many of us, I have taken up causes against large organisations that run largely on autopilot (ie with as little thought as possible) - the trick is to get through to someone who is interested, cares and can make decisions or influence them. I don't make a good leader and I don't always have the energy (or I am away, myself) to do stuff. I am not good on administration, either.

Determination and perseverance are what is needed, as much as anything else.

Getting such a group established would, in itself, be an achievement. Many groups start up. Most fall by the wayside, but some keep going and start to have an effect.





Polly

 

[jezport]

We spent last weekend on the North bay without any problems. There were a number of other vans dotted along the bay.

 

[Bernard Jones]

I noticed last week that signs restricting vehicles to 1.5 tons and no overnight sleeping have been removed from Scarborough & district council car parks. (They were on the old pay and display machines, but are not on the new ones.)

I wondered whether after the number of phone calls to Scarborough police to report a 'suspicious' van (mine) parked in the street, the council had finally realised it would be better to let us use the car parks?

 

[grinner555]

I noticed last week that signs restricting vehicles to 1.5 tons and no overnight sleeping have been removed from Scarborough & district council car parks. (They were on the old pay and display machines, but are not on the new ones.)

I wondered whether after the number of phone calls to Scarborough police to report a 'suspicious' van (mine) parked in the street, the council had finally realised it would be better to let us use the car parks?

we stopped in scarboro last weekend in the sea life center car park, £5 for 24 hours pay by card or cash
sea view and pub couple of yards away
no probs at all:banana: