maingate
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Well said.
I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.
New signs put up in Wales regarding motorhomes seen in Barmouth car park and spotted in a layby
- Thread starter Mickrick
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I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.
Fisherman
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Spot on, to many signs simply put up by lazy people who can’t be bothered doing things properly. No overnight parking signs are not enforceable, and in 2012 police scotland stated they would not attempt to enforce them. Yet there are still hundreds maybe thousands of them up here.Well said.
I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.
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r4dent
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I think you didn't read the last sentence!
iandsm
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Camping in Wales, without the landowners permission as in England is not an offence in criminal law, it is a civil matter of trespass with certain exceptions such as forced entry or damage to gates /fences which would make it a criminal, offence. That is the reason the new legislation is being enacted in the criminal law so that the police will have powers to remove people who park or camp without permission on private land and refuse to move when asked to do so. That seems fine to me.
The sign displayed mentions this, nothing wrong with that. The "Please do not camp in lay-bys or on roads" is northing more than a request since the Council concerned does not provide any information on legislation which would make this an offence and does not indicate what penalties might be imposed for infringement, therefore as far as the council is concerned the request is not enforceable. However the police do have powers to move people if they are causing obstruction or danger.
Having said that I doubt the police would be the slightest bit interested should a motohomer park for the night in a sensible position, not causing danger of obstruction or annoyance to anyone. A group of people who follow a nomadic lifestyle taking u precedence where they please would be a different matter and one which the new legislation seeks to address.
Should some council person emboldened by a high viz jacket draw my attrition to such a sign and tell me to move off I will ask them to inform me what legislation I am in breach of otherwise go away and leave me alone. Of course should the police tell me to move and have good reason to do soI would would have to accept that and do so.
I do find these signs very annoying and if given the chance I think they should be questioned where possible. But lawful signs should be obeyed.
The sign displayed mentions this, nothing wrong with that. The "Please do not camp in lay-bys or on roads" is northing more than a request since the Council concerned does not provide any information on legislation which would make this an offence and does not indicate what penalties might be imposed for infringement, therefore as far as the council is concerned the request is not enforceable. However the police do have powers to move people if they are causing obstruction or danger.
Having said that I doubt the police would be the slightest bit interested should a motohomer park for the night in a sensible position, not causing danger of obstruction or annoyance to anyone. A group of people who follow a nomadic lifestyle taking u precedence where they please would be a different matter and one which the new legislation seeks to address.
Should some council person emboldened by a high viz jacket draw my attrition to such a sign and tell me to move off I will ask them to inform me what legislation I am in breach of otherwise go away and leave me alone. Of course should the police tell me to move and have good reason to do soI would would have to accept that and do so.
I do find these signs very annoying and if given the chance I think they should be questioned where possible. But lawful signs should be obeyed.
Canalsman
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Most roads and laybys are defined as being public highway. This contrasts with roads, sometimes seen in urban areas, marked as 'unadopted'. These are privately owned typically and are not public highway.
If you are parked on the public highway all is well unless there is a restriction in place that can be enforced by a Traffic Regulation Order or you are parked unsafely /illegally as defined within the Highway Code.
The Road Traffic Act 1988 defines the limits to the public highway.
r4dent
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you're overthinking my response.Well said.
I believe that if there is a Law in place (or byelaw) then a specific reference to it must be included in the signage. Otherwise the sign itself is 'unlawful'.
maingate
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I don't think I am.
The sign itself does not comply with regulations and therefore has no standing in Law. If the cost of litigation was not so expensive, many people would take legal action in minor cases such as this.
maureenandtom
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It looks to me like this sign is at a roadside - perhaps a layby? See the double yellows bottom right?
Well in that case the Traffic Signs Regulations would apply - and the rules may be different in Wales. If they are different then a little reading of this https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/771873/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-1.pdf will help.
As it looks to me, if in England, then this sign would have the legality of the No Overnighting Signs removed from Scottish Laybys some years ago. That is - none. (Aside, the ultimate removal of those signs was from action taken using information researched by Alf, one of our forum members.)
Section 3 at page 12 of the reference is the one you want to look at first. Then have a look at paragraph 3.3.1 which is so important I reproduce a screenshot here:
maingate
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I think this is just another example of a National Park Authority turning it into their personal fiefdom with petty rules and regs. I don't know about Snowdonia but I do know the the Lake District NP is deeply unpopular with many of the people who live within its borders due to petty and restricting rules.
Robmac
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I've politely asked the question to Gwynedd Council for clarification regarding these signs. I will see if they respond.
I don't particularly want to wind them up otherwise non legal signs (without TRO's) may all of a sudden be made legal (with TRO's). But my stance would be to avoid the car parks, ignore the signs and park discretely elsewhere.
If that didn't work, I like Snowdonia, but if I am not wanted there I will not be bothering them any more.
I don't particularly want to wind them up otherwise non legal signs (without TRO's) may all of a sudden be made legal (with TRO's). But my stance would be to avoid the car parks, ignore the signs and park discretely elsewhere.
If that didn't work, I like Snowdonia, but if I am not wanted there I will not be bothering them any more.
QFour
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We were told many years a.go when we had our first MH that we were not allowed to park on the street and we could only park on a campsite. I pointed out to the guy that it was a motor vehicle like all others and I could park it where I dam well liked. He then walked off.
alcam
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I did , sounded like something a lecturer would say to first year law students .
Obviously missing something .
Go on , pretend I'm thick [not hard], explain
mistericeman
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maureenandtom
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Off street parking then. The road sign rules wouldn't apply. So the question would be - who manages the car park. Privately owned, owners' rules. Publicly owned - a local authority off-street parking order. In either case, pretty well anything goes.
trevskoda
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The law is clear on this, anywhere the public have access with no gates etc then you must have ins/tax etc, the strange thing is I got stopped by police riding around a garage forecourt where i worked for the above, went down to the station to see the Sargent on duty and it was dropped.We were always told that the retail park car parks were public highway too, when we were parked up watching people doing doughnuts and burn-outs lol.
Yet definitely private owned.
My point? I don't actually know
r4dent
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Did you read the last sentence of my post?
"Illegal" is a big bird that is not very well.
Do you really need an explanation!
mistericeman
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Council I think...
The parking cash cows that have netted North Wales councils £4.3m
Councils have brought in staggering sums from motorists who have to pay to park
www.dailypost.co.uk
maureenandtom
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Yes. I think you're right. Council. Gwynedd Council.
I'm not sure what visitsnowdonia is. It seems to be a division of the council. Their website gives their address as the council's Economy and Community Department and the website is the copyrigh t of Gwynedd Council. So visitsnowdonia and Gwynedd Council are one and the same. Probably.
I've had correspondence with Gwynedd Council before. 2018 when the council banned motorhomes from at Morfa Bychan Beach (also known as Black Rock Sands) claiming large numbers of complaints from the public about the usual. Using the beach as a toilet, dumping rubbish and so on. The usual. An enormous number of complaints – the council spokesman said.
There were five. One, at least, was from a local councillor on his own behalf – not being passed on from a tax-payer. One from the campsite manager adjoining the beach.
I asked for details of complaints over a period of three years up to the date of the report which I think was a local newspaper – but I no longer have a copy of it, I probably do have it but a casual search hasn't found it.
I emailed Daffyd Richard Jones at the council.
"I’ve glanced briefly at the complaints and, one at least, we can ignore (for my purposes now) because it was not made until 18th June and therefore falls outside my three year query and was made after the problem became public. Nevertheless I will take it into account. Far from the enormous number of complaints alleged by the council spokesman there have been only four (or five if we accept the last). This seems to me to be an effort by the council to create outrage where none existed before. I can understand the local campsite manager exaggerating the situation – she has a living to make – but I can’t see why the council should wish to create public disquiet where none existed before."
Daffyd Richard Jones answered
"The contents of your e-mail also raises a number of points regarding to Morfa Bychan beach, and I offer the following comments.
Gwynedd Council are under a legal obligations to manage its own beach properly. As such, the Council’s arrangements allows members of the public on a daily basis to enjoy the beach’s outstanding natural amenities. However, the events over the 2018 summer season has emphasised the need to discourage the public from being present during and after nightfall because management for the Council during this time would be difficult if not impossible. The Council has no desire to manage after hours, and it certainly does not have the resources to do so.
The Council did not act on anecdotal evidence as suggested. Instead, the Council’s actions were based on the fact (with supporting evidence) that a significant number of motorhomes, campervans, cars and other modified vehicles were staying overnight at Morfa Bychan beach. As previously stated, arrangements and facilities provided at Morfa Bychan beach do not provide for overnight stays, and measures were taken to address the situation. I appreciate that you may take the view that having over 150 vehicles without any facilities or supervision should be tolerated, however, I do not share such a view. In answer to your question what is the court’s power to fine overnight occupiers on the Council’s land, the relevant provision is section 77 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.
Nevertheless, future management arrangements for Morfa Bychan beach will be reviewed over the coming months, with a view that the scale of future overnight parking be reduced. I very hope that any improvements will be introduced for the 2019 season "
A neat bit of deflection tactic - ignoring the discrepancy between enormous and five.
I left it at that. Probably that I would revisit in 2019 to see what future management arrangements had appeared but I didn't. And then the pandemic put a stop to my activiies for a while – maybe for good.
But only five complaints in three years. Not much more than one complaint a year. Five complaints when he says that 150 vehicles were overnghting there. How often? I didn't ask. Nor did I ask what management tasks the council would have to undertake after hours.
I'm not sure what visitsnowdonia is. It seems to be a division of the council. Their website gives their address as the council's Economy and Community Department and the website is the copyrigh t of Gwynedd Council. So visitsnowdonia and Gwynedd Council are one and the same. Probably.
I've had correspondence with Gwynedd Council before. 2018 when the council banned motorhomes from at Morfa Bychan Beach (also known as Black Rock Sands) claiming large numbers of complaints from the public about the usual. Using the beach as a toilet, dumping rubbish and so on. The usual. An enormous number of complaints – the council spokesman said.
There were five. One, at least, was from a local councillor on his own behalf – not being passed on from a tax-payer. One from the campsite manager adjoining the beach.
I asked for details of complaints over a period of three years up to the date of the report which I think was a local newspaper – but I no longer have a copy of it, I probably do have it but a casual search hasn't found it.
I emailed Daffyd Richard Jones at the council.
"I’ve glanced briefly at the complaints and, one at least, we can ignore (for my purposes now) because it was not made until 18th June and therefore falls outside my three year query and was made after the problem became public. Nevertheless I will take it into account. Far from the enormous number of complaints alleged by the council spokesman there have been only four (or five if we accept the last). This seems to me to be an effort by the council to create outrage where none existed before. I can understand the local campsite manager exaggerating the situation – she has a living to make – but I can’t see why the council should wish to create public disquiet where none existed before."
Daffyd Richard Jones answered
"The contents of your e-mail also raises a number of points regarding to Morfa Bychan beach, and I offer the following comments.
Gwynedd Council are under a legal obligations to manage its own beach properly. As such, the Council’s arrangements allows members of the public on a daily basis to enjoy the beach’s outstanding natural amenities. However, the events over the 2018 summer season has emphasised the need to discourage the public from being present during and after nightfall because management for the Council during this time would be difficult if not impossible. The Council has no desire to manage after hours, and it certainly does not have the resources to do so.
The Council did not act on anecdotal evidence as suggested. Instead, the Council’s actions were based on the fact (with supporting evidence) that a significant number of motorhomes, campervans, cars and other modified vehicles were staying overnight at Morfa Bychan beach. As previously stated, arrangements and facilities provided at Morfa Bychan beach do not provide for overnight stays, and measures were taken to address the situation. I appreciate that you may take the view that having over 150 vehicles without any facilities or supervision should be tolerated, however, I do not share such a view. In answer to your question what is the court’s power to fine overnight occupiers on the Council’s land, the relevant provision is section 77 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.
Nevertheless, future management arrangements for Morfa Bychan beach will be reviewed over the coming months, with a view that the scale of future overnight parking be reduced. I very hope that any improvements will be introduced for the 2019 season "
A neat bit of deflection tactic - ignoring the discrepancy between enormous and five.
I left it at that. Probably that I would revisit in 2019 to see what future management arrangements had appeared but I didn't. And then the pandemic put a stop to my activiies for a while – maybe for good.
But only five complaints in three years. Not much more than one complaint a year. Five complaints when he says that 150 vehicles were overnghting there. How often? I didn't ask. Nor did I ask what management tasks the council would have to undertake after hours.