Lochore aire locals object?

Val54 said:
Sadly I think the community council's response to Tom is correct regarding FOI, FOI requests stop at Council level, e.g. Fife. Unless I've missed something, the Information Commissioner's website refers to FOI applying to the list of Local Government Authorities set up under Section 2 of the 1994 Local Government (Scotland) Act, that doesn't include community councils. Given the "flexibility" in the way the community councils can operate, it may well be worth asking the SPOS whether they will even entertainment a complaint against them.
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Quite frankly the more I learn here the worse it seems to get.
But within the codes of practice on page 34 as I posted earlier it does state

The Code of Conduct for Community Councillors is largely based on the Code of Conduct for Fife Council councillors and relevant public bodies as provided for in:
The Ethical Standards in Public Life etc. (Scotland) Act 2000

Now my way of reading this is community councillors are in effect de facto regional councillors with the same standards being applied to them.

Bottom line here is TK is a local political figure, and if any other politician abused people online, held bigoted views and expressed them openly, and sanitised views that they did not agree with, they would be finished. The Greeks gave us peoples politics (democracy), it seems it may not apply to Benarty community council.
 
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GeoffL said:
Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.

5.2 Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution
5.2.1 Process The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.

In addition, Para 5.0 (Complaint Handling) states that the council must, "check that the complaint is competent, i.e. is not spurious or vexatious and is related to a matter within the remit of the community council to determine" and dismiss the complaint if it considers it not to be 'competent'. That is, the Tom Kinnaird would appear to be at liberty to deem any complaint about himself to be 'vexatious' and summarily dismiss it.

While I suspect that this is an oversight, it does call the complaint procedure itself into question and hence my next step will probably be to complain to Fife Council that the complaint procedure itself presents a dilemma that almost guarantees complaints against the Chair of a Community Council with few office bearers (e.g. the Chairperson, his wife and two of his friends) cannot receive a fair hearing.

FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.
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I think getting CAMPRA involved would be a good move. An organisation will have more clout than a couple of motor homers who have taken offence to some Facebook posts.
 
Fife Council do have a role in complaints against Community Councils, if you follow this link

Community Councils | Fife Council

www.fife.gov.uk www.fife.gov.uk
and scroll down to "The Scheme for the establishment of Community Councils (2021)", note this is very recent ..... 2021. Download the PDF file and look at Schedule 4 ..... Complaints Procedure.
Apologies if this has already been looked at.
 
Val54 said:
Fife Council do have a role in complaints against Community Councils, if you follow this link

Community Councils | Fife Council

www.fife.gov.uk www.fife.gov.uk
and scroll down to "The Scheme for the establishment of Community Councils (2021)", note this is very recent ..... 2021. Download the PDF file and look at Schedule 4 ..... Complaints Procedure.
Apologies if this has already been looked at.
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No apologies necessary, and thanks for chipping in. FWIW, Schedule 4 is the procedure that Bill and I have been discussing.

caledonia said:
I think getting CAMPRA involved would be a good move. An organisation will have more clout than a couple of motor homers who have taken offence to some Facebook posts.
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I found a thread on the CAMpRA forum. Apparently, the aire closed at the end of last month with the excuse that this is to allow the site to recover. Anyway, here's what I wrote there:

Unfortunately, I suspect that the aire will not reopen.

Over on the Wildcamping forum, I was notified that the Secretary of the Benarty Community Council (BCC) had posted one of Cameron McNeish's YouTube videos that gave a glowing review of the Lochore Meadows aire to Facebook. The Chairperson was the first to reply and the tone of this and subsequent posts by him suggest anti-motorhome bigotry and vitriolic hatred against motorhomes. The Facebook thread can be found at https://www.facebook.com/groups/benarty ... 035396661/ In that thread, it seemed very clear that the Council Chairperson wanted the aire closed and would monitor it with a view to doing exactly that.

Both I and another WC user tried to complain to Fife Council about that chairperson's online behaviour as we felt it had violated several of the tenets of the council code of conduct. However, Fife advised us that we had to complain to BCC in the first instant and sent us a copy of the document that included the complaint procedure. Basically, this obliged the chairperson to investigate complaints about himself and gave him to power to summarily dismiss any complaint he considered vexatious! The office bearers of the committee are the Chairperson, his wife, and two of his friends -- so I doubt our complaint would get a fair hearing.

I'm happy to pass whatever info I have to CAMpRA if the organisation wants to take this up.
 
I'm afraid the situation is no better south of the border. The Local Government Ombudsman will not investigate complaints against parish or town councils. To quote their website .....
"A complaint about the conduct of a parish or town councillor should be made to the council itself. If you are not satisfied with the outcome, your local Monitoring Officer (usually part of whichever local council collects your council tax) may consider your complaint.

We may then be able to look at how the Monitoring Officer considered your complaint about a parish councillor. But we will not investigate the issues that prompted your complaint."
 
GeoffL said:
FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.
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It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation. I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore. The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed. The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site. During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available. It is really only the EHU which is unavailable. Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation. His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.
 
Like Val54 I'd thought of Scottish Community Councils as being the equivalent of Parish and Town councils in England. I think this might not be true. I;d not looked at it from the point of view of complaints to the Ombudsman but only from the point of view of provision of information to those funding their activities - us.. Parish and Town Councils in England are subject to the Freedom of Information Act:

2021-11-01_221938.jpg


Community Councils are similarly elected and funded by the public. I've asked the Information Commissioner and I'll pass on the reply. I also discovered something I'd not known:

2021-11-01_222005.jpg

Now that could be useful though perhaps not now because, Benarty says, there's no requirement to maintain a register of councillors' interests.
 
Biggarmac said:
It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation. I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore. The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed. The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site. During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available. It is really only the EHU which is unavailable. Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation. His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.
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Spot on Mac, TK has absolutely no jurisdiction over what happens within Lochore Meadows. One of his complaints being that there was no consultation between Benarty Community Council and management a Lochore Meadows when the Motorhome stop over was created. Lochore will reopen. All he does is spout out his personal opinions about what goes on there.

I think that we are in danger here off convoluting what is actually a very simple situation. Sorry but I fail to see what the FOA has to do with what TK posted online, and his behaviour towards people who confront his views in a reasonable manner. If there is no satisfactory means of holding him to account, then this reflects poorly on how these community councils are audited and their behaviour is monitored and enforced. I hope that something will come from this, but sadly I don't Hold out much hope.
 
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Biggarmac said:
It is CAMpRA policy not to get involved in complaints or confrontation. I have been in discussion with Ian at Lochore. The motorhome area will re-open when the new play area is completed. The safety of motorhomers going to the normal area is the reason for the closure of that part of the site. During the building work the main carpark is available for overnight use by motorhomes at a donation figure of £5. The waste point and water is still available. It is really only the EHU which is unavailable. Lochore Meadows is not closed to us and the person who is the subject of this thread has no power to change that situation. His comments about the Park manager were completely out of order.
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Thanks for this and also for your response over on CAMpRA. From the CAMpRA forum, it seems clear that the BCC has no jurisdiction over this aire, which is the county's responsibility and that the current closure is partly to enable development of a nearby children's play area. Also, Fife Council is allegedly very pro-motorhome and so, hopefully, the aire is safe. Pragmatically, all I wanted to achieve was to save the aire from permanent closure and, since continuing with my complaint would at best be neutral from that perspective, I'm not going to pursue that further.
 
Just to briefly summarise what’s happened to date.

First and foremost Tom Kinnaird has no say whatsoever what Fife council do or don’t do within Lochore Meadows. Lochore Meadows comes under the control of Fife Regional Council who are probably the most patient pro Motorhome region in Scotland. So as Mac stated Lochore Meadows will be reopening on April 1 2022 once the works are finished. I hope also that in future years that the facility will be open all year round.

Yesterday I made a complaint about Tom Kinnaird to Fife Council. They replied that I would be better emailing a complaint to Fife Community Councils who should be able to advise me of options, or they may be able to look into the complaint themselves. I emailed them with my complaint yesterday and posted my complaint on here. I now await a response from Fife Community Councils.

I won’t post on this matter until I have received my reply.
 
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Well I have just received this reply from Fife Community councils.
It appears that I have to make my complaint to Benarty Community Council.
I am only prepared to do this if after exhausting all avenues I will have recourse to take my complaint further to the ombudsman.
I will reply now to Fife Community Councils to clarify this point.
I will keep you informed regarding their reply.

Dear Mr Hurley



I acknowledge receipt of your email re a complaint about Mr Tom Kinnaird, Chairperson, Benarty Community Council.



Community Councils are voluntary organisations made up of members elected by their community and Fife Council provide Community Councils and Community Council members with advice and guidance on the running of their Community Council. Community Council members are NOT elected members of Fife Council. However, as you are aware, there is a Code of Conduct for Community Council members.



You are correct in your assertion that any complaints about a Community Council, as a whole or about the individual conduct of one of its members, should be raised direct with the Community Council in question. Since the complaint relates to a particular member/office bearer, the complaint would require to be dealt with by another office bearer, not related to the office bearer about whom a complaint is made.



If you consider that the Code of Conduct for Community Councillors has been breached, you can raise a complaint with the Community Council and I would refer you to information on the Council’s website in relation to the handling of complaints made about Community Councils/individual members and the process of dealing with these – See Schedule 4 of the Scheme of Establishment refers - https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf.



Kind regards



Community Council Liaison Officer
 
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From the link above I found this on page 44.
6.0 Appeal
There is no right of appeal against a frontline resolution response or an Investigating Panel’s decision.

Therefore sadly I see no point in taking this matter any further.
I thought we lived in a country were elected officials could be held accountable for their behaviour, but it seems that these officials have carte Blanche to say what they like, lie, behave like bigots, then can only be investigated by their own community council. :mad:
 
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Fisherman said:
From the link above I found this on page 44.
6.0 Appeal
There is no right of appeal against a frontline resolution response or an Investigating Panel’s decision.

Therefore sadly I see no point in taking this matter any further.
I thought we lived in a country were elected officials could be held accountable for their behaviour, but it seems that these officials have carte Blanche to say what they like, lie, behave like bigots, then can only be investigated by their own community council. :mad:
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Sadly I think you are correct. Even if the complaint was escalated to involve a complaints panel made up of councillors from a different community council, how likely is it that they will support the complainant or even be interested. The SPOS would only get involved if the complaint process hasn't been followed, they wouldn't look at the actual issue.
It has been an eye opener as to how immune these councils are from scrutiny, playing devil's advocate, the bottom line answer is the ballot box, but how many community council seats are actually contested 🤔.
 
Just need to resort to plan B. Send the boys round to sort him out. 😂😂😂😂. Maybe Annie could call in on her way south and set the dogs on him.😂
He will get his comeuppance one day. I’m a firm believer in good thing happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people.
 
Hi, I’m local, do have an expensive motorhome that I’ve worked hard for and always use local pubs, shops - food and gifts, everywhere I go but this would put a lot of people of coming to a lovely place that is open to the public. I read his rants on Facebook, pretty awful and one sided, using what’s happening elsewhere as his argument but couldn’t find anything about this local issue that fisherman mentioned below - he posted on another post re video of lochore meadows. Wonder why? Think I will be giving it a wide berth and spend my money elsewhere.

Fisherman said:
They have had issues with their toilet waste due to misuse by locals who put things down the hole blocking it. They have now hopefully rectified this issue, and the toilet waste is available.
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Weefifer said:
Hi, I’m local, do have an expensive motorhome that I’ve worked hard for and always use local pubs, shops - food and gifts, everywhere I go but this would put a lot of people of coming to a lovely place that is open to the public. I read his rants on Facebook, pretty awful and one sided, using what’s happening elsewhere as his argument but couldn’t find anything about this local issue that fisherman mentioned below - he posted on another post re video of lochore meadows. Wonder why? Think I will be giving it a wide berth and spend my money elsewhere.
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I wish I was local, because he would know who I was.
This whole experience has been frustrating for myself.
The fact that this individual is still free to make his bigoted narrow minded comments whilst holding office is utterly diabolical.
But sadly that’s exactly were we are here.
My comment about the elsan being blocked came from information passed to me on my last visit. I hope you don’t think I was having a go at the locals, who have always made us feel welcome. But at night I have heard youngsters messing about in that area, and it’s possibly they who put things down the elsan point.
But nothing that he says or does will stop me from going back to Lochore.
 
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trevskoda said:
This is more entertaining than corrie, please keep going. (y)
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It's been an eye opener for me too (Val54). Scottish Community Councils seem to be immune to any scrutiny. The FoI does not cover them. What this means is that any Community Councillor is immune to any investigation. A simple no comment will do as an answer to any query. We have no right to know what they do or how they spend our money unless they wish to tell us. But we can't compel it to give us information.

I find it hard to get my head round it. They're elected and publicly funded – and that's it. Ripe for infiltration by anybody I reckon though at least Councillors do have to be local. Get enough local folk and take over our own Community Council?

What fun.

FoI Benarty.jpg
 
maureenandtom said:
It's been an eye opener for me too (Val54). Scottish Community Councils seem to be immune to any scrutiny. The FoI does not cover them. What this means is that any Community Councillor is immune to any investigation. A simple no comment will do as an answer to any query. We have no right to know what they do or how they spend our money unless they wish to tell us. But we can't compel it to give us information.

I find it hard to get my head round it. They're elected and publicly funded – and that's it. Ripe for infiltration by anybody I reckon though at least Councillors do have to be local. Get enough local folk and take over our own Community Council?

What fun.

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Tbh they are unaccountable but really have heehaw power anyway . Apparently definitely not in regards to the aire
The guy is a tosser , think he has been told that already . Needs to be ignored . Pretty sure he enjoys the attention
Hope nobody steals his transit
 
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