Lochore aire locals object?

[Fisherman]

Here's what the document Fife Council sent me says about complaints:

A complaint can be made in writing or by email to the Chairperson, Secretary or Treasurer. If the complaint is about an office-bearer, they should not handle the complaint and another member of the community council should be identified to handle the complaint.

Now two of the four office-bearers are the person the complaint is about and his wife and I suspect that (as this is a community organisation) the other two are unlikely to be impartial! Hence the complaint is exceedingly unlikely to receive fair handling IMO. I find it astonishing that the county council has no oversight. Unfortunately, there also doesn't seem to be a direct email address for the BCC Secretary (John Purdie) -- only a 'contact' form on their website.

Geoff you will have to go to the ombudsman now. I suspected this would be the case. I sadly reckon that we are going to have obstacles placed against us, leading to nothing being done. What’s actually required is for the local community within Benarty taking direct action. But sadly as linkhouse stated I doubt if enough within Benarty are interested enough. But I will go further with this none the less.
If someone with knowledge of Facebook could start an alternative forum for Benarty calling it say alternative Benarty matters calling him out, that may be worth considering.

 

[caledonia]

Maybe an email to Fife Tourist board informing them of Tams comments would be an idea. Or small Business trust as it’s these people who rely on tourists.

 

[GeoffL]

Maybe an email to Fife Tourist board informing them of Tams comments would be an idea. Or small Business trust as it’s these people who rely on tourists.

Unfortunately, the closest that I could find for a small business trust for the Benarty area is "Benarty Community Forum" that @mikejay linked in post #66. Included on their board of directors is one Tom Kinnaird! Fife Tourist Board might be a better option...

 

[Fisherman]

Unfortunately, the closest that I could find for a small business trust for the Benarty area is "Benarty Community Forum" that @mikejay linked in post #66. Included on their board of directors is one Tom Kinnaird! Fife Tourist Board might be a better option...

Geoff to make a complaint you have to follow procedures laid down by Fife council. I take your point about Fife tourist board but they would probably have to complain to TK about TK. But as they say nothing ventured nothing gained. But questions Fife’s process seems all that’s left.

 

[Val54]

The community council does not appear to have a formal complaints procedure set out on its website. FWIW I think the SPOS will expect a complainant to have approached the council asking how to make a complaint, setting out the process to be followed.

 

[Fisherman]

The community council does not appear to have a formal complaints procedure set out on its website. FWIW I think the SPOS will expect a complainant to have approached the council asking how to make a complaint, setting out the process to be followed.

Before you can approach the SPOS you must first complain to the council. But there’s a possible problem here in that that may mean the community council and not the regional council. So we may first have to make a complaint to Benarty before the ombudsman will look into it. I am trying to find out exactly were we stand here.

 

[Val54]

Before you can approach the SPOS you must first complain to the council. But there’s a possible problem here in that that may mean the community council and not the regional council. So we may first have to make a complaint to Benarty before the ombudsman will look into it. I am trying to find out exactly were we stand here.

It will be the community council, the SPOS will expect them to have had the opportunity to respond to the complaint, the regional council have not played any part in this as far as I can tell.

 

[GeoffL]

Geoff to make a complaint you have to follow procedures laid down by Fife council. I take your point about Fife tourist board but they would probably have to complain to TK about TK. But as they say nothing ventured nothing gained. But questions Fife’s process seems all that’s left.

Agreed. My earlier comment was a reply to @caledonia 's suggestion to either talk to the tourist board or a small business trust.

As I commented earlier, the only way for us to contact the BCC appears to be via a form on their website -- so we don't get a read or delivery receipt. Thinking laterally, the Secretary of the BCC is the OP of the thread that gave rise to this whole issue. It might be possible to pm him via FB Messenger, but I feel uneasy doing that.

 

[linkshouse]

Just a thought but, do we have any members within the Benarty Community Council catchment area?

EDIT
Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting a lynch mob, rather, that people nearer the problem may be better placed to garner local support.

 

[Fisherman]

Just a thought but, do we have any members within the Benarty Community Council catchment area?

EDIT
Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting a lynch mob, rather, that people nearer the problem may be better placed to garner local support.

I wish I lived there, I would try for the Lynch mob

 

[Fisherman]

I have received confirmation, we have to exhaust all possibilities with Benarty before we can approach the ombudsman. So I will work on this tonight or tomorrow. It’s important that we follow these procedures, I know it’s not what we want, but it’s just how it is. So it’s a complaint to Benarty about the chairperson, and his wife will probably respond being independent, unbelievable.

 

[mikejay]

They have an email address you don't need to use the contact form click the envelope at the bottom right of page next to the facebook button. Also in there complaints section the same email address is listed.

 

[Fisherman]

Received further reply from Fife Council

hank you for your email.

It would be inappropriate and risk further of both parties' time to discuss the matter with this department. We unfortunately have no answers to the points you are likely to make, a member of staff from community.councils@fife.gov.uk could possibly discuss the matters further with you.

We have attached a link to the document that describes the process, and this makes reference to conflict of interest and that members from other Community Councils can consider the matter.

https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf

SCHEME FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMUNITY COUNCILS IN FIFE 3 The Scheme of Establishment for Community Councils (2021) The following is the Scheme of Establishment for Community Councils as approved for www.fife.gov.uk

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We apologise however, this department can only discuss complaints that the Council can consider and given home working arrangements we only have access to personal devices. Service, including a telephone conversation could quite likely be available from the community council email.

We would suggest that you contact the Community Council email address for further detail on how to proceed with your complaint.

We appreciate your frustration at the situation however we need to be clear that this department has no way to support you in the matter as we are entirely ignorant of the rules associated with Community Councils. The best we can offer is the email address and the link to the process and trust that you can understand our position.

Kind regards


Escalation & Resolution Team
Customer & Online Services

 

[GeoffL]

I have received confirmation, we have to exhaust all possibilities with Benarty before we can approach the ombudsman. So I will work on this tonight or tomorrow. It’s important that we follow these procedures, I know it’s not what we want, but it’s just how it is. So it’s a complaint to Benarty about the chairperson, and his wife will probably respond being independent, unbelievable.

Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.

5.2 Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution
5.2.1 Process The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.

In addition, Para 5.0 (Complaint Handling) states that the council must, "check that the complaint is competent, i.e. is not spurious or vexatious and is related to a matter within the remit of the community council to determine" and dismiss the complaint if it considers it not to be 'competent'. That is, the Tom Kinnaird would appear to be at liberty to deem any complaint about himself to be 'vexatious' and summarily dismiss it.

While I suspect that this is an oversight, it does call the complaint procedure itself into question and hence my next step will probably be to complain to Fife Council that the complaint procedure itself presents a dilemma that almost guarantees complaints against the Chair of a Community Council with few office bearers (e.g. the Chairperson, his wife and two of his friends) cannot receive a fair hearing.

FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.

 

[Fisherman]

Here's the gotcha: Complaint Procedure para 5.2 (Frontline Resolution) requires the Chairperson together with one other office-bearer to fully consider the complaint (even if the complaint is initially passed to another member because the complaint relates to the Chairperson). So, effectively, Tom Kinnaird is obliged to preside over a complaint about himself.

5.2 Stage 1 – Frontline Resolution
5.2.1 Process The complaint should be acknowledged in writing within 5 working days and an expected response timescale provided. The complaint should be passed to the Chairperson, or another appropriate officer bearer (if the complaint relates to the Chairperson). The Chairperson in consultation with another office bearer of the community council will fully consider the terms of the complaint, seeking additional information as required and determine whether to uphold or not uphold the complaint.

In addition, Para 5.0 (Complaint Handling) states that the council must, "check that the complaint is competent, i.e. is not spurious or vexatious and is related to a matter within the remit of the community council to determine" and dismiss the complaint if it considers it not to be 'competent'. That is, the Tom Kinnaird would appear to be at liberty to deem any complaint about himself to be 'vexatious' and summarily dismiss it.

While I suspect that this is an oversight, it does call the complaint procedure itself into question and hence my next step will probably be to complain to Fife Council that the complaint procedure itself presents a dilemma that almost guarantees complaints against the Chair of a Community Council with few office bearers (e.g. the Chairperson, his wife and two of his friends) cannot receive a fair hearing.

FWIW, I joined CAMpRA a week or two ago and so I might just pay a visit to their forum to see if they know about this and to give them the 'heads up' if not.

Hi Geoff, yes I had already read through this and noted this anomaly.
I have just emailed Fifes community councils as advised today by Fifes escalation and resolution team. Let’s see what happens now.

here’s what I sent.

Dear sir/madam,

I was given this email address by your escalation and resolution team.
I wish to make a complaint about Mr Tom Kinnaird, chairperson Benarty Community Council. (BCC)
On Friday I was notified that he had posted an inflammatory email on his Facebook forum Benarty matters with regards to motorhomes who used the facility at Lochore. At this point I was not aware of his position within BCC.
After reading the post I felt I had to respond, as did other Motorhome owners. He made slanderous assertions unfit for someone in public office. These comments were clearly in breech of your codes of practice for such individuals. When attempting to discuss his comments he resorted to lies, personal insults, and after two days he stopped us from posting, and removed our posts. On further research it was noted that he has a history of such behaviour towards his own constituents. I will attach comments from some of his constituents to this email. I and others have made complaints to Fife Council, but we have been advised that we must take this matter up with BCC. But I see no point in doing so. I noted from your code that if we do so this matter must be dealt with by another member of BCC. But his wife is deputy chair, and quite frankly this would be akin to complaining about Tom Kinnaird to Tom Kinnaird.

If I do have to complain to BCC I will do so, knowing full well that it’s an exercise in futility. Akin to shouting at the moon. Surely Fife council are responsible for the actions of their public officials. Surely there should be a better method than the complainant having to in effect complain to the person he is complaining about.

All I ask is that you look at his forum on Facebook, look at what is being posted, and decide wether or not it meets page 34 regarding said codes of practice.

I look forward to hearing from you.
I can be contacted by email or on my mobile
Please find attachments below. The first being his initial post.
But much worse was to follow than the initial post.
Prior to him cutting us of I did screen shots of all his posts for your perusal if you wish me to post them at a later date I will.

Regards

William Hurley.

Sent from my iPadll

 

[Val54]

The complaints procedure is what it is and should not impact on the SPOS assessment. The community council have to give a response, whether it is dictated by TK is irrelevant. The important points will be ......
1. Have they responded in accordance with the complaints procedure, if they don't, that in itself is a matter for the SPOS
2. If they respond that the complaint is spurious, comments taken out of context, Chair personal view etc, that will be ammunition for the next stage in convincing the SPOS that they should investigate.

 

[Fisherman]

The complaints procedure is what it is and should not impact on the SPOS assessment. The community council have to give a response, whether it is dictated by TK is irrelevant. The important points will be ......
1. Have they responded in accordance with the complaints procedure, if they don't, that in itself is a matter for the SPOS
2. If they respond that the complaint is spurious, comments taken out of context, Chair personal view etc, that will be ammunition for the next stage in convincing the SPOS that they should investigate.

Yes currently I am trying to avoid dealing with him for obvious reasons. But I will do so when it becomes necessary. I don’t Reckon that TK is the sharpest tool in the box, and I reckon his arrogance may be a problem for him.

 

[maureenandtom]

Every day's a school day. An immediate response from the Community Council. According to the Secretary, they are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.

So much for transparency then. It will cost nothing to ask the Information Commissioner if this is true and I'll do that and publish the result.

The Information Commissioner's answer will not matter either way if the second part of the response is true; that the elected Community Council is not required to maintain a register of counillors' interests. The link in Fisherman;s post above is absorbing, https://www.fife.gov.uk/__data/asse...heme-110321-Final-version-PDF-FOR-WEBSITE.pdf and I find that Community Councillors should declare an interest in any question arising in their dfiscussions as is normal - but as the Secretary says, he is not required to keep a Register.

I'll find out about both his assertions and publish the results. Secretive bodies in local government? Well, no. According the link they are elected bodies but not part of local government.

 

[GeoffL]

TBH, para 11.1 is fairly standard and was included in the constitution I help draft when I was secretary of a local "friends" group in support of a nearby park (ironically, similar to the Meedies!) Before any debate or vote was taken at committee meetings, the Chair would require anyone with a vested interest in the topic to declare it, and to withdraw before any vote on the matter was taken. Although my "friends" group wasn't required to maintain a register of interests, declared interests were recorded in the minutes.

 

[Val54]

Sadly I think the community council's response to Tom is correct regarding FOI, FOI requests stop at Council level, e.g. Fife. Unless I've missed something, the Information Commissioner's website refers to FOI applying to the list of Local Government Authorities set up under Section 2 of the 1994 Local Government (Scotland) Act, that doesn't include community councils. Given the "flexibility" in the way the community councils can operate, it may well be worth asking the SPOS whether they will even entertainment a complaint against them.