KSEnergy lithium batteries - are they genuine drop in replacements?

[Moped]

One thing I will say, with your proposed use off grid if it is in the U.K. then for 5 months of the year you will need EHU or a generator unless you are doing a good few hours travelling each day. Lifepo4 are very good if they fit your use I am very pleased with mine but I changed everything to get the best of them. The problem is getting enough charge to replace your usage. If your current system isn’t doing it on lead acid then nothing will change except you initially get longer before running low on power.
I did note you mention France and Spain though so if your 5 months poor U.K. solar is spent there you could be okay but uorating your solar. You need to be able to replace what you use though

Spanish sun mid January through to April. As long as we use 12v only then 100w solar and lead acid in Spain seems ok during this period combined with a bit of touring every 2-3 days.

RoadPro did say that because of Lithium ability to take a rapid charge, if insufficient daily sun for solar, then you might only need to run the engine alternator for 20 mins to offer a very good top up for the next days use if you happen to be static for a few days. But yes agree solar harvesting would need to increase for serious off grid use.

I accept the wear on the engine argument and diesel use but it is not as if we do even 10000 miles a year so in the grand scheme of things the wear over time is not significant but I may be right or wrong of course!

How idling affects the diesel emissions systems these days is in the lap of the gods.

 

[trevskoda]

I accept the wear on the engine argument and diesel use but it is not as if we do even 10000 miles a year so in the grand scheme of things the wear over time is not significant but I may be right or wrong of course!

How idling affects the diesel emissions systems these days is in the lap of the gods.

It fooks them up big time.

 

[merl]

Spanish sun mid January through to April. As long as we use 12v only then 100w solar and lead acid in Spain seems ok during this period combined with a bit of touring every 2-3 days.

RoadPro did say that because of Lithium ability to take a rapid charge, if insufficient daily sun for solar, then you might only need to run the engine alternator for 20 mins to offer a very good top up for the next days use if you happen to be static for a few days. But yes agree solar harvesting would need to increase for serious off grid use.

I accept the wear on the engine argument and diesel use but it is not as if we do even 10000 miles a year so in the grand scheme of things the wear over time is not significant but I may be right or wrong of course!

How idling affects the diesel emissions systems these days is in the lap of the gods.

I'm lost now. surely you cant be "charging ebike batteries, using a toaster, microwave, kettle, expresso coffee maker and an electric oven" with just one lead acid battery and a single 100W solar panel and a bit of touring every 2 days.??

 

[wildebus]

For the kind of use Moped is proposing (as opposed to currently doing), I would recommend Lithium.

For sure there is a much more significant up-front cost to change to Lithium, as it is not just the Batteries that are needed but a decent charging system needs to be invested in (IMO, the Sargent is a nice bit of kit for the 12V Distribution side and the 240V Distribution but the Charging setup is inadequate for off-grid use with Lead Acid let along Lithium. When I got my new-to-me van, the initial purchases were 300Ah of Lead Carbon, plus replacing the Sargent charging sytems with separate and better devices. The Sargent is still fitted, but only doing what it is very good at now).
A full-time use of a setup is a lot different to the occasional weekend away when it comes to is the expense justified I reckon. When something is getting used 24/7, how much is worth spending on it is a very different conversation to a occasional holiday use purchase.

 

[Moped]

I'm lost now. surely you cant be "charging ebike batteries, using a toaster, microwave, kettle, expresso coffee maker and an electric oven" with just one lead acid battery and a single 100W solar panel and a bit of touring every 2 days.??

We don’t do any of this when touring Spain or Portugal unless we are on hook up. If we use the lower ebike battery support settings, we can normally get 2 or 3 days ebike use before batteries need charging. Depends on distances cycled and terrain.

 

[Moped]

For the kind of use Moped is proposing (as opposed to currently doing), I would recommend Lithium.

For sure there is a much more significant up-front cost to change to Lithium, as it is not just the Batteries that are needed but a decent charging system needs to be invested in (IMO, the Sargent is a nice bit of kit for the 12V Distribution side and the 240V Distribution but the Charging setup is inadequate for off-grid use with Lead Acid let along Lithium. When I got my new-to-me van, the initial purchases were 300Ah of Lead Carbon, plus replacing the Sargent charging sytems with separate and better devices. The Sargent is still fitted, but only doing what it is very good at now).
A full-time use of a setup is a lot different to the occasional weekend away when it comes to is the expense justified I reckon. When something is getting used 24/7, how much is worth spending on it is a very different conversation to a occasional holiday use purchase.

Whilst the KSEnergy battery may be a drop in replacement unit, would agree that the Sargent charging rates are too low and restricted for serious off grid lithium use.

If you are only going to use 25% of for example a 100ah Lithium battery daily, then the Sargent charging rates probably are adequate in Spain in winter with a 100w solar panel but you will still be slowly draining the battery if you are parked up for a few days. But then why have lithium if your battery use is no differently to a lead acid?

RoadPro did say it is important to calculate your daily amp hour needs and only then can you work out what your charging requirements are. They do have an online energy calculator. Assuming we use lpg for heating and the fridge, then for typical usage we could be using 90ah daily including ebike battery top ups, use of microwave, toaster, tv, lighting, phone and tablet charging, coffee maker, alde heating pump and fans. More if we use a halogen hob or electric oven or do more cycling.

Currently with the 12v only set up we probably use 25ah daily which a 100w flat roof solar panel can harvest enough for in Spain in winter. Not in the U.K. though.

 

[jagmanx]

My take on it os tp use campsites with EHU onr or 2x a week
Thud saving a huge amount on batteries etc but spending it sites.
I suggest not to idle the engine
1 not good.
2 little charge
If you choose maybe drobe say 50 miles but that costs fuel.
Getting more solar lithium and relevant devices could cost between £500 and £1,000 ????

 

[trevskoda]

My take on it os tp use campsites with EHU onr or 2x a week
Thud saving a huge amount on batteries etc but spending it sites.
I suggest not to idle the engine
1 not good.
2 little charge
If you choose maybe drobe say 50 miles but that costs fuel.
Getting more solar lithium and relevant devices could cost between £500 and £1,000 ????

Your misspelling is nearly as good as mine, turn on some lights or try some sleep.

 

[jagmanx]

Using the phone rather than tablet or PC !!!!
My fingers seem to be in boxing gloves

 

[Moped]

This is what Sargent stats in the EC651 power unit manual:-

“Battery Charger

The system incorporates an intelligent three-stage battery charger.
During stage 1 the battery voltage is increased gradually while the current is limited to start the charging process and protect the battery. At stage 2 the voltage rises to 14.4V to deliver the bulk charge to the battery. When the battery is charged, the voltage is decreased at stage 3 to 13.6V to deliver a float charge to maintain the battery in the fully charged state. The charger can be left switched on continuously as required.

For optimum performance and safety it is essential that only a proprietary brand LEISURE battery is used and it is suggested to select a battery from the NCC Verified Battery Scheme with a typical capacity of 75 to 120 Ah (Ampere / hours). Depending on the prospective use of the vehicle the correct type should be selected (A, B or C). A normal car battery is NOT suitable. This battery should always be connected when the system is in use.
The PSU is configured to work with standard lead acid leisure batteries, and in most cases is also compatible with the latest range of Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) batteries. The system is also suitable for Lithium batteries with built-in Battery Management Systems BMS). Before fitting non-standard batteries please check that the charging profile described in 3.3 is suitable for the type of battery by referring to the battery documentation or battery manufacturer.”

The key sentence is that the system is also suitable for Lithium batteries with built-in Battery Management Systems BMS.

So it does appear that the OEM power arrangements in Swift motorhomes with the Sargent EC651 power unit is capable of handling the charging requirements and profile of a lithium battery with a BMS. The PX300 charger installed within the power unit is suitable for lithium battery charging.

The Sargent charger can be switched off if the battery is fully charged and the maintenance of a float charge is an issue in the case of a lithium battery.

 

[wildebus]

The ultimate choice is yours, but with the list of things you want to be able to do, relying on the Sargent system for either EHU or via Alternator charging would be a big mistake. Reasons given earlier. End of.

 

[Nabsim]

90ah a day is a lot to replace. As an example I use approx 65ah per day, have 200ah lifepo4, 300W solar on the roof plus 100w folding solar panel. Unless I am moving every day in need to get the generator out every two days or so to put power in the battery bank in late autumn, winter, early spring. That is in the U.K.

 

[merl]

This is what Sargent stats in the EC651 power unit manual:-

“Battery Charger

The system incorporates an intelligent three-stage battery charger.
During stage 1 the battery voltage is increased gradually while the current is limited to start the charging process and protect the battery. At stage 2 the voltage rises to 14.4V to deliver the bulk charge to the battery. When the battery is charged, the voltage is decreased at stage 3 to 13.6V to deliver a float charge to maintain the battery in the fully charged state. The charger can be left switched on continuously as required.

For optimum performance and safety it is essential that only a proprietary brand LEISURE battery is used and it is suggested to select a battery from the NCC Verified Battery Scheme with a typical capacity of 75 to 120 Ah (Ampere / hours). Depending on the prospective use of the vehicle the correct type should be selected (A, B or C). A normal car battery is NOT suitable. This battery should always be connected when the system is in use.
The PSU is configured to work with standard lead acid leisure batteries, and in most cases is also compatible with the latest range of Absorbed Glass Matt (AGM) batteries. The system is also suitable for Lithium batteries with built-in Battery Management Systems BMS). Before fitting non-standard batteries please check that the charging profile described in 3.3 is suitable for the type of battery by referring to the battery documentation or battery manufacturer.”

The key sentence is that the system is also suitable for Lithium batteries with built-in Battery Management Systems BMS.

So it does appear that the OEM power arrangements in Swift motorhomes with the Sargent EC651 power unit is capable of handling the charging requirements and profile of a lithium battery with a BMS. The PX300 charger installed within the power unit is suitable for lithium battery charging.

The Sargent charger can be switched off if the battery is fully charged and the maintenance of a float charge is an issue in the case of a lithium battery.

Correct, your Sargent charger appears to have a lithium profile switch.
Used on the correct setting you wont have to worry about switching the charger off at the end of the charge cycle, charging will stop automatically.
Your charger has a an upper limit of 120Ah battery capacity, if you exceed that battery capacity by adding additional batteries then inevitably at some point the charger will be working flat out for longer than intended by the manufacturers and the charger may not like this. It's heat build up that stresses and knackers electronic components so this will be a bigger factor when the ambient temperature is higher, the mounting position of the charger and available ventilation will play a large part. If well ventilated the charger would probably be fine with over 120Ah but it would certainly invalidate any guarantee.
IF you intend to use all of those electrical items mentioned previously off grid then you'll need way way more than 120Ah of battery capacity, as much solar as you can possibly get and a much larger mains charging system.
With either a single battery or a large multiple battery system lead carbon gets you considerably more bang for your buck than lithium. Carbon will weigh more and take up more space though so if you've not got the room or the spare payload then it's a moot point and you'll have to use lithium.
Merl

 

[Moped]

There is conflict between the Sargent EC651 manual and the PX300 data sheet.

The PX300 data sheet claims the charger is suitable for an 85 to 220ah battery size:-

https://sargentltd.co.uk/shop/product/152/tech-spec/94

I was looking at a battery offering around 150ah. Basically because it would handle everything we have that is electrical that an inverter would throw at it. There are larger agm batteries that offer this usable power but then you have size and number of lifecycles to factor in and how well do they handle regular invertor use so lithium does make more sense long term.

I accept the U.K. is hopeless for solar in winter but Spain isn’t. Probably would not use 90ah daily in a U.K. winter as would not use ebikes (I am not in favour of cycling when cold and wet) so no ebike battery charging required which saves 35ah and would probably use more gas rather than using electrical devices saving another 20ah on the calculations so maybe 35ah daily max in a U.K. winter with longer dark spells and greater heating and TV use. When parked up in Falmouth in January a while back I was getting a reading of between 2-3amps being generated in the middle 4 hours of the day with the 100w roof panel so you can harvest maybe 10-15amps daily in the right conditions in Cornwall.

Really I need to contact Sargent to sort this out.

Unless a member provides feedback that they have installed a lithium battery and use the standard Sargent installation PX300 charger with it. But probably still need to contact Sargent even so.

I did email KS Energy yesterday but they have yet to get back. They may be browsing at the Motorhome show so short staffed this week. Sargent close Friday afternoon.

RoadPro said that the PX300 might be OK but that they would recommend a higher rated 3 way charger and some uprated cabling for better performance, which all adds to cost. And then you have to decide on inverter arrangements and whether to boost solar but that is all for the future.

When I chat to Mrs Moped she says £800 for a drop in battery is acceptable expenditure in her mind. She starts to balk when I talk of serious money for a bees knees upgrade. I like a higher proportion of wild camping on our trips. She likes a higher proportion of campsites with hook up, large shower blocks and a bit of neighbour chit chat and gossip. So this is fundamentally the problem!

 

[merl]

There is conflict between the Sargent EC651 manual and the PX300 data sheet.

The PX300 data sheet claims the charger is suitable for an 85 to 220ah battery size:-

That's doesn't surprise me, ultimately the charger will be working flat out for around 3-4 hours charging a 110Ah battery from flat, after running for that length of time it'll have possibly reached it's top temperature anyway and wont get any hotter if it has to work for a additional 3 hours. (Depends on ventilation and ambient temps as previously said).
With this in mind the manufacturers maximum Ah rating will be somewhat 'guessed at' by them. Check with them though esp if it's still under guarantee and they say it's 220Ah then get that in writing before going over 120Ah.
Merl

 

[wildebus]

I would say check how much a modern 20A charger costs (I would advocate bigger, but comparing with Sargent device) compared to the cost of a replacement EC651 (plus the inconvenience whilst waiting replacement) when it has overstrained itself.

 

[merl]

There is conflict between the Sargent EC651 manual and the PX300 data sheet.

The PX300 data sheet claims the charger is suitable for an 85 to 220ah battery size:-

https://sargentltd.co.uk/shop/product/152/tech-spec/94

I was looking at a battery offering around 150ah. Basically because it would handle everything we have that is electrical that an inverter would throw at it. There are larger agm batteries that offer this usable power but then you have size and number of lifecycles to factor in and how well do they handle regular invertor use so lithium does make more sense long term.

I accept the U.K. is hopeless for solar in winter but Spain isn’t. Probably would not use 90ah daily in a U.K. winter as would not use ebikes (I am not in favour of cycling when cold and wet) so no ebike battery charging required which saves 35ah and would probably use more gas rather than using electrical devices saving another 20ah on the calculations so maybe 35ah daily max in a U.K. winter with longer dark spells and greater heating and TV use. When parked up in Falmouth in January a while back I was getting a reading of between 2-3amps being generated in the middle 4 hours of the day with the 100w roof panel so you can harvest maybe 10-15amps daily in the right conditions in Cornwall.

Really I need to contact Sargent to sort this out.

Unless a member provides feedback that they have installed a lithium battery and use the standard Sargent installation PX300 charger with it. But probably still need to contact Sargent even so.

I did email KS Energy yesterday but they have yet to get back. They may be browsing at the Motorhome show so short staffed this week. Sargent close Friday afternoon.

RoadPro said that the PX300 might be OK but that they would recommend a higher rated 3 way charger and some uprated cabling for better performance, which all adds to cost. And then you have to decide on inverter arrangements and whether to boost solar but that is all for the future.

When I chat to Mrs Moped she says £800 for a drop in battery is acceptable expenditure in her mind. She starts to balk when I talk of serious money for a bees knees upgrade. I like a higher proportion of wild camping on our trips. She likes a higher proportion of campsites with hook up, large shower blocks and a bit of neighbour chit chat and gossip. So this is fundamentally the problem!

When I chat to Mrs Moped she says £800 for a drop in battery is acceptable

I wouldn't be paying that kind of money for my leisure battery either with or without the nod from SWMBO myself but each to their own I suppose!
Merl

 

[mistericeman]

When I chat to Mrs Moped she says £800 for a drop in battery is acceptable

I wouldn't be paying that kind of money for my leisure battery either with or without the nod from SWMBO myself but each to their own I suppose!
Merl

Definitely each to their own AND can depend on the owners needs/usage.

When we got the mohome it was, a bog standard caravan with an engine...
Fine for use on sites with hook up....

Couple of years in and the single FLA has been replaced with
3 x 100ah agm batteries
400w solar panel
Victron Solar controller
Victron smart shunt (and Raspberry pi4/venus)
Victron inverter for the 240v fridge
Victron mains charger for the rare occasions we need to charge in winter if we've not driven much
Ring rscdc30 battery to battery charger to replace the pitiful standard charging relay.

And we've now got a comfy motorhome that we can use all year around without worrying about having enough power to watch TV or have lights on etc...

Worthwhile investment (for us) not needing hook up means we can escape away from the usually busy spots where most folks want to be.

 

[Moped]

When I chat to Mrs Moped she says £800 for a drop in battery is acceptable

I wouldn't be paying that kind of money for my leisure battery either with or without the nod from SWMBO myself but each to their own I suppose!
Merl

Remember that the lithium battery has a potential 10 to 20 year life and can be transferred to another van. You can always put a cheap leisure battery in the vehicle you are selling. You also have more off grid power available.

There is hardly any latent power loss in storage so no need to keep it topped up.

It really depends on how often you use your van and what you do when you use your van.

As we use it 220 to 240 days a year then it seems like a sensible investment to provide a bit more in the way of home comforts and ebike battery charging when off grid. If you use it for say 60 to 80 days a year or 10 weeks or less then I can see the investment is questionable.

I’m not going to spend £1500 on a satellite dish, or £3000 on a self levelling system, or £2000 on air con, or £1800 on air suspension, or £1000 on a drive away awning.

But as we have ebikes which we use daily when in France and Spain I can see the point of spending some money on enhancing the power arrangements. Mrs Moped accuses me of panicking when we are off grid because I have this fear of running out of ebike battery power when I like my daily go anywhere ebike freedom. I do restrict my use when off grid so it’s never actually happened but I want unrestricted use! Especially when mountain biking which uses more power, but which I don’t do when off grid. Yes I am an old fart mountain biker but it’s in my blood. So yes there is some method in my power madness!

PS I have noted on the KS Energy website that they are closed until 26th October which explains their delay in getting back to me.

When the motorhome show is over and RoadPro have settled back into a normal day to day routine I will contact them. Daventry is not too far for us, and neither is Hartlebury.

RoadPro founder is Andy Harris of Motorhome Channel fame.

 

[merl]

Hi Moped, 10-20 years is only a possible potential lifespan under perfect conditions, part of that perfect conditions will be very light use. Please dont expect anywhere near that sort of lifespan with 220-240 days a year usage. I think it will outlast a Lead Carbon of similar capacity but figures suggest that it the difference isn't vast. It certainly wont outlast the lead carbon if you attempt to recharge it below 0 deg or if the BMS develops a fault (which I've experienced myself). Self discharge rates for lead carbon and lifep04 are similar too so nothing really to make me want to spend £400 more than needed to get similar results to a lifep04.
As I've said previously, there's nothing magical about lithium, your ability to recharge your ebikes off grid WONT be governed by whether you use lithium or lead carbon, but by the way you replenish them. Both batteries will perform similarly and the slight loss of performance of lead carbon over lithium can be compensated for by increasing capacity a little, going from 120ah lead carbon to a 150ah will more than compensate.
I genuinely don't see what you DONT spend your money on (satellite, self levelling etc) to be of any significance, if you want to do something with your leftover cash because you didn't buy something just give it to charity mate, or better still....me !
Merl