interesting new court ruling re gypsies and right to roam

When I first moved to Poole there was a dedicated Traveller stop with a toilet/shower block and bins provided,I went in there weekly to empty the bins. Not long after it was closed down because all the facilities had been completely trashed,now it is a permanent Traveller site with about 10 static caravans,supplied with power,water and normal bin collections. To me the residents can no longer be classed as travellers as they reside permanently in one place,but now there is nowhere for travellers to pitch up except public parks,carparks etc
It seems like a lose lose situation for local ratepayers,and when the travellers themselves don't seem to know what they want,what hope have council's got to deal with them?
 
Hmm.

You're in an area of the country pretty well provisioned for Travellers.

Devon and Cornwall has one of the largest numbers of settled travellers in the UK.
 

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Hmm.

You're in an area of the country pretty well provisioned for Travellers.

Devon and Cornwall has one of the largest numbers of settled travellers in the UK.

No provisions at all across the entire conurbation,Pool, Bournemouth and Christchurch,every summer is a constant battle between the council and travellers. One of the jobs I was doing was to deliver skips full of concrete to gateways around the borough to stop incursions onto public land,they are still doing it now but they can't block everything. There have been attempts to designate sites in the area but the nimbys (quite understandably) protest about it and plans are shelved for another year.
 
Good point. I know that some Travellers also lead a settled existence and still believe themselves Travellers. So I looked up where I thought I'd seen this as being accepted. I couldn't find it but I do believe it is there somewhere. So, certainly full-timers and, I believe, any of us who choose the self-identify as New Travellers.

The easiest readily-available document is that issued by Cumbria Police (because of the Appleby business) but I think several other authorities have similar doucments. Coogle "Gypsy and Traveller Policy - Cumbria Police" for a word document.

Here's a couple of extracts.

View attachment 75887

View attachment 75888
Out of that list its the Irish travellers who are causing the vast majority of problems for the rest of the list .They are abusing the ECHR ruling and fogging the whole traveller issue and every man and his dog knows it.
 
I've always though we should do much more with on-the-spot fines. Seem to remember a few countries in Europe practice this for parking offences, although I haven't been abroad for a good few years now (Greece springs to mind?). Don't see why similar instant fines shouldn't be applied to littering. Its always been an offence, but I've never, ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.

Wouldn't hold your breath, though! 🙂

Remember when Toy Blair advocated on the spot fines for littering etc.? He was laughed at. :(

Personally, I thought there was some merit in it.
 
On the spot fines for littering have always been available, but the police simply don't often enforce it.

In the United Kingdom there is a maximum fine of £2,500 for persistent littering. Different local authorities also have the powers to impose on-the-spot fines to those caught littering. These are generally under £100.
 
Private land as opposed to public land means the land owner has to pay to clear up the mess, even dead wild animals. :(
 
Remember when Toy Blair advocated on the spot fines for littering etc.? He was laughed at. :(

Personally, I thought there was some merit in it.

Like I said, they did on-the-spot fines in Greece for parking offences so no reason to laugh for doing the same for littering/dumping rubbish.

But then people laugh at the idea of aires in the UK, so no surprises that good ideas get knocked back by narrowminded naysayers 🙂
 
Private land as opposed to public land means the land owner has to pay to clear up the mess, even dead wild animals. :(

Yes, that's a problem. If fly tippers arrive and dump their rubbish on private land, the responsibility for its subsequent removal is down to the land owner.

By the same token, it's interesting that local Roma also dump rubbish on their own land and make a proper eyesore of it and don't seem to be required to clear up any mess they make.

There doesn't appear to be any laws requiring any land owners, Roma or not, to keep their land clear of rubbish (I might be wrong on this?). Unless it's in a National Park perhaps, or they're found dumping hazardous waste when they shouldn't be? (but then who would know about the latter, especially if it's somewhere remote or hidden?!)
 
Channa, my understanding is that showman are in a class of their own and quite different to the settled Roma who live near me.

Regardless, we should be providing more/better sites for all Travellers/Roma.

There is and always will be prejudice towards Roma, as there will always be ignorant prejudice towards anyone who is perceived to be 'different' to the local parochial population.

The bottom line for me is that most of our environmental (and many other) problems is because there are way too many of us Yuman's!

Look at any group of animals where the population grows crowded and you will experience tension, rivalries and spats.

What is needed - and this is very much my own personal opinion - is a good dose of Yuman myxomatosis!
Maybe something like this recent Chinese coronavirus?

Sounds like if it hits here it could wipe out at least half the UK population of moho owners, possibly even me! rofpml
Hope it waits until I've at least had chance to have a few trips out in new camper first... ! 😉 😂😁


myxomatosis
Lol Marie the showmen do consider themselves a different breed, yet a lot of the culture is in common with traditional Romany beliefs and they are lumped in with the rest of the travelling community as regards the law is concerned. In my opinion it is the New Age travellers that don’t fit traditionally, simply a more recent addition to a label.

History and tradition are entrenched in travelling culture, the travelling lifestyle whether some like it or not is very much part of British culture. From some of the language we use and that has evolved to part and parcel of how our economy has developed in history.over the years,

Traditionally travellers were in the main a seasonal workforce that followed seasonal agriculture about at harvest and sewing times assisted in trading markets , an off shoot was entertainment and that is how the fairs came about some of the original travellers simply diversified.

What a lot of folk don’t realise is the travelling fairs go back to royal charter. That charter over rides today’s local authorities and is the reason why despite protests from some the hopping ,goose fair amongst others are highly unlikely to be revoked.

Goose fair in Nottingham is a great example whilst a funfair today loathed and adored by many it was traditionally a market were poultry was traded before Christmas geese traded to fatten for the table. Traditionally a flock of geese driven through the fair to open it.,! Ain’t hat part of our culture?

The showmen have the guild, who remedies problems amongst the showmen and lease effectively with authority and have brokered countless arrangements in favour of their members exemptions in size of living trailers being one.

It is incredibly difficult to trade as a showman , due to a closed shop arrangement I can’t do it and I know a lot of influential showman on first name terms

The showmen still operate an arranged marriage situation it seems to work but dowry’s c ommercial favour is very much alive and kicking.

Do they contribute towards the settled economy ? Yes the simple answer , they pay rent,taxes for water just like everyone else.

Have they contributed in other ways .. ? Gypsy John Cunningham was awarded the Victoria cross , no mean feat fighting for our country at a time of potential oppression , there are others too, the showman’s guild in war 2 raised money for aircraft. All acts to the common good yet we never here about it ?

Just perhaps I may have opened a few eyes , and folk may realise their prejudices are a little unfounded. The showmen at least are very much part of our history and culture, they also have their own , we don’t need to understand it but it would be a far better world if we took time to understand our differences and what unites us in common.

As for me , I visited a different world , initially treated with suspicion but caught a glimpse of a different culture and lifestyle, saw from others perspective.. I consider it a chapter in my own life if nothing else personally enriching and I never left our shores.
 
...

I think there have been a few recent experiments in a limited number of city/town centres to deter littering?
But this is not a mainstream policy and most councils don't employ anyone to enforce controls properly and effectively.

But with environmental awareness becoming much more mainstream now, the best we can hope for is that tougher laws will be introduced to deal with rubbish and its disposal.

Wouldn't hold your breath, though! 🙂

Yes. There have been. Public Spaces Protection Orders. And there have been plenty of on the spot fines handed out too; they're called Fixed Penalty Notices and very often a private company is employed to enforce the PSPOs. This has led to many complaints. Fines have been imposed for offences ranging from dropping cigarette ends to feeding ducks.. But none, so far as I know, for Travellers leavng rubbish behind.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...554552/Woman-fined-for-feeding-the-ducks.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-furious-after-being-fined-11546181

The PSPOs are pretty mainstream and are being introduced all over the place.
 
Hi Tom Yes it’s easy to get a fine for an Apple core we are easy targets.........the lorry loads of rubbish for want of a better word after the travellers leave ends up with the local rate payers yet again Justice indeed.

Alf

Yes. There have been. Public Spaces Protection Orders. And there have been plenty of on the spot fines handed out too; they're called Fixed Penalty Notices and very often a private company is employed to enforce the PSPOs. This has led to many complaints. Fines have been imposed for offences ranging from dropping cigarette ends to feeding ducks.. But none, so far as I know, for Travellers leavng rubbish behind.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...554552/Woman-fined-for-feeding-the-ducks.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woman-furious-after-being-fined-11546181

The PSPOs are pretty mainstream and are being introduced all over the place.
 
Yes, that's a problem. If fly tippers arrive and dump their rubbish on private land, the responsibility for its subsequent removal is down to the land owner.

By the same token, it's interesting that local Roma also dump rubbish on their own land and make a proper eyesore of it and don't seem to be required to clear up any mess they make.

There doesn't appear to be any laws requiring any land owners, Roma or not, to keep their land clear of rubbish (I might be wrong on this?). Unless it's in a National Park perhaps, or they're found dumping hazardous waste when they shouldn't be? (but then who would know about the latter, especially if it's somewhere remote or hidden?!)

When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...
 
When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...
Sounds like my garage. :unsure:
 
Yes but that was not the school playing field or a public park.

Alf

When I was a young thing and living rurally I went to lots of small farms where the farmer kept everything. Nothing was thrown away no matter how ancient or rusty (or useless!) it was, just in case it might come in useful....wasn't considered unusual or antisocial back then. Mind you it tended to be out of public view...
 
Lol Marie the showmen do consider themselves a different breed, yet a lot of the culture is in common with traditional Romany beliefs and they are lumped in with the rest of the travelling community as regards the law is concerned. In my opinion it is the New Age travellers that don’t fit traditionally, simply a more recent addition to a label.

History and tradition are entrenched in travelling culture, the travelling lifestyle whether some like it or not is very much part of British culture. From some of the language we use and that has evolved to part and parcel of how our economy has developed in history.over the years,

Traditionally travellers were in the main a seasonal workforce that followed seasonal agriculture about at harvest and sewing times assisted in trading markets , an off shoot was entertainment and that is how the fairs came about some of the original travellers simply diversified.

What a lot of folk don’t realise is the travelling fairs go back to royal charter. That charter over rides today’s local authorities and is the reason why despite protests from some the hopping ,goose fair amongst others are highly unlikely to be revoked.

Goose fair in Nottingham is a great example whilst a funfair today loathed and adored by many it was traditionally a market were poultry was traded before Christmas geese traded to fatten for the table. Traditionally a flock of geese driven through the fair to open it.,! Ain’t hat part of our culture?

The showmen have the guild, who remedies problems amongst the showmen and lease effectively with authority and have brokered countless arrangements in favour of their members exemptions in size of living trailers being one.

It is incredibly difficult to trade as a showman , due to a closed shop arrangement I can’t do it and I know a lot of influential showman on first name terms

The showmen still operate an arranged marriage situation it seems to work but dowry’s c ommercial favour is very much alive and kicking.

Do they contribute towards the settled economy ? Yes the simple answer , they pay rent,taxes for water just like everyone else.

Have they contributed in other ways .. ? Gypsy John Cunningham was awarded the Victoria cross , no mean feat fighting for our country at a time of potential oppression , there are others too, the showman’s guild in war 2 raised money for aircraft. All acts to the common good yet we never here about it ?

Just perhaps I may have opened a few eyes , and folk may realise their prejudices are a little unfounded. The showmen at least are very much part of our history and culture, they also have their own , we don’t need to understand it but it would be a far better world if we took time to understand our differences and what unites us in common.

As for me , I visited a different world , initially treated with suspicion but caught a glimpse of a different culture and lifestyle, saw from others perspective.. I consider it a chapter in my own life if nothing else personally enriching and I never left our shores.

The stuff you learn on this site!
That was really interesting, thanks.
Re gypsy/traveller contributions to society...some of the best Irish Traditional musicians were travellers, exceptionally talented and skilled (with not a huge wedding dress in sight! 😉)
 

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