interesting new court ruling re gypsies and right to roam
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iampatman
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Gypsies and Tinkers. They are not the same. A real Gypsy lives by very strict rules. Then we have motorhomer’s and life’s leftovers.
We do need more facilities. The road side bins we do have are seldom emptied.
Tinkers? I thought the Industrial Revolution saw them off.
What’s a life leftover?
As for this “bin” thing - it’s not really a problem is it?
We do need more facilities. The road side bins we do have are seldom emptied.
Tinkers? I thought the Industrial Revolution saw them off.
What’s a life leftover?
As for this “bin” thing - it’s not really a problem is it?
runnach
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Prior to the race act 2010, New Age travellers were not recognised ,what brought about recognition is they had a raft of children who only knew their semi nomadic lifestyle, and it was the children that brought about a recognised ethnicity.irish Scots angd English travellers enjoy separate recognition as do the show people.
Some of you may remember I worked for a few months with the travelling fairs living full time in my Moho. Upon my return to the uk officially i was classed as a traveller but the pigeon hole I fitted into was never really discussed
As far as the show people were concerned I was a traveller but not one of them an it was explained to me you had to be born into fairground life ,my daughter if I had continued working there would have been classed as showman you don’t need be born in a trailer.
The discrimination between travellers can be fierce, which surprises a lot of people.
Just to clear up a couple of myths re show people at least every fair we pay rent to the council or landowner, ands lot of it we also had to make provisions for toilets and waste disposal for the fairground goers.
The showman’s guild are particularly good at lobbying particularly transport matters licensing mot on the tractor units ,they also resolve disputes between families which is why it is rare to see any publicity
Schooling of children is parenting and a combination of educational outreach workers
Some of you may remember I worked for a few months with the travelling fairs living full time in my Moho. Upon my return to the uk officially i was classed as a traveller but the pigeon hole I fitted into was never really discussed
As far as the show people were concerned I was a traveller but not one of them an it was explained to me you had to be born into fairground life ,my daughter if I had continued working there would have been classed as showman you don’t need be born in a trailer.
The discrimination between travellers can be fierce, which surprises a lot of people.
Just to clear up a couple of myths re show people at least every fair we pay rent to the council or landowner, ands lot of it we also had to make provisions for toilets and waste disposal for the fairground goers.
The showman’s guild are particularly good at lobbying particularly transport matters licensing mot on the tractor units ,they also resolve disputes between families which is why it is rare to see any publicity
Schooling of children is parenting and a combination of educational outreach workers
iampatman
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Authorities don’t like folk who can’t be monetised. Live in bricks and mortar and they’re laughing. Mortgage repayments/rent/poll tax/gas bills/electric bills/broadband/TV License etc..etc..
Some people/communities might prefer a different lifestyle and it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man/woman in 2020 to accommodate them but - it’s easier, and cheaper, to vilify them and encourage discrimination against them. Yes, it’s awful when your local area is left messed up by travelling folk but it would be cheaper and more sensible if there were some facilities offered to travellers. Mind, if we didn’t have Gypsies and travellers we’d have to find another group to discriminate against wouldn’t we? Women won’t stand for It anymore, neither will black folk or any ethinic minority - the games up there. There’s only Gypsies and travellers left. God knows who we’ll vent our prejudices on when they’re gone eh?
Pat
Some people/communities might prefer a different lifestyle and it shouldn’t be beyond the wit of man/woman in 2020 to accommodate them but - it’s easier, and cheaper, to vilify them and encourage discrimination against them. Yes, it’s awful when your local area is left messed up by travelling folk but it would be cheaper and more sensible if there were some facilities offered to travellers. Mind, if we didn’t have Gypsies and travellers we’d have to find another group to discriminate against wouldn’t we? Women won’t stand for It anymore, neither will black folk or any ethinic minority - the games up there. There’s only Gypsies and travellers left. God knows who we’ll vent our prejudices on when they’re gone eh?
Pat
maureenandtom
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... or anywhere else. If they are provided with bins. So why don't councils do this? Find there is an encampment and provide bins? There will then be no cleanup bill other than emptying the bins. No mess, no complaints, little cost.
bobj808
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Why don't they do what the majority of us do and take their crap to their nearest disposal centre. Why should any council funded by taxpayers (remember Travellers don't pay any tax whatsoever ) have to foot the bill to take away their rubbish. I'm not sure why people on here can defend the indefensible. Wherever they stop they leave the place like a dump, no exception.
GreggBear
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Don't be naive. If they were provided with bins they would only weigh them in! They have plenty opportunity to use bins etc just the same as you & I do. I have seen council provide skips for these people, who left them empty & threw carp on the floor next to the skips!
You can't help people who don't want to be helped....
peter palance
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oh no they dont,some were to put the dung,and water. we pay they should pay, if you dont be have, they could take your van,it takes all types. a clean path is what we need, p.s. happy camping,ok pj.
jacquigem
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How about Europeans ? (tounge in cheek ,Ha Ha )
izwozral
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No problem providing facilities if they contribute towards it, why should everyone else have to pay for it? There are plenty of working poor who pay their rates and go without decent food and heating.
Just a few days ago there was a thread about littering and the litterers were vilified by those who posted, why are the gypsies seen as any different?
There is plenty of more ammo if the gypsies suddenly become responsible citizens.
Politicians.
Religious fundamentalist.
Claims Lawyers
Parking companies
And probably a lot more besides.
Anyway, this is my last post on this thread as I suspect this thread will be closed shortly and I feel there isn't much more can be said on the subject.
Best wishes to one and all.
GreggBear
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Gotta say, I'm getting a bit confused now. On the one hand it is suggested that we are wrong to expect to park anywhere for free & should be happy to pay charges to park in public places with no facilities. Then it is pointed out that we as taxpayers should be expected to provide the Irish gypsies with facilities at our expense. Then, as if I am not confused enough by this point it is then suggested that these gypsies are in fact misunderstood & I am maybe wrong to have a negative view of them.....
Sometimes feels like we are our own worst enemy & seem unable to stand up for what we believe in, but instead feel duty bound to put ourselves down.
Sometimes feels like we are our own worst enemy & seem unable to stand up for what we believe in, but instead feel duty bound to put ourselves down.
Fisherman
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I always try to understand that as humans we all think differently, and have differing outlooks on life. But what must bind us all together is the law, because without the law all we have is anarchy. But within the law there must be some latitude. Take the situation were Sikhs don’t have to wear helmets when riding on motorbikes for example. I feel that the travelling community need such latitude, but not to the extent that they can behave irresponsibly at great cost to local residents and council tax payers.
Yes I have witnessed travellers behaving badly when offered sites set up by local councils. Not more than a mile away from were I live there was such a site, but after several abuses the council blocked it off years ago. But do we say that all travellers are the same, should we ban all travellers from sites, I don’t think so. What we have to do is apply the law, plain and simple. Fines should be issued, and if not paid then custodial sentences should be handed out. We have to stop being afraid of tackling these problems because of fears of bias against travellers. If they break the law, the law must be applied.
Next we come to taxes, and costs incurred by us maintaining waste disposal and other costs such as education for children, medical aid, policing, fire, etc.
If travellers are due to pay income tax I see no reason why they should be treated any differently. Local council tax poses more of a problem. The current council tax is based on the value of your property, and many non travellers amongst us pay no council tax. It could be that attempting to calculate council tax and collect it may prove more expensive than what little we would collect. Also what value do we put on a caravan moving from area to area. Remember that two identical homes can be on different council tax bands due to location.
To sum up, there is clearly a disconnect between us and travellers, a level of suspicion and mistrust that will prove difficult to overcome. But we must resist bias and we must also be prepared to hold selfish inconsiderate behaviour to account no matter who is responsible.
Yes I have witnessed travellers behaving badly when offered sites set up by local councils. Not more than a mile away from were I live there was such a site, but after several abuses the council blocked it off years ago. But do we say that all travellers are the same, should we ban all travellers from sites, I don’t think so. What we have to do is apply the law, plain and simple. Fines should be issued, and if not paid then custodial sentences should be handed out. We have to stop being afraid of tackling these problems because of fears of bias against travellers. If they break the law, the law must be applied.
Next we come to taxes, and costs incurred by us maintaining waste disposal and other costs such as education for children, medical aid, policing, fire, etc.
If travellers are due to pay income tax I see no reason why they should be treated any differently. Local council tax poses more of a problem. The current council tax is based on the value of your property, and many non travellers amongst us pay no council tax. It could be that attempting to calculate council tax and collect it may prove more expensive than what little we would collect. Also what value do we put on a caravan moving from area to area. Remember that two identical homes can be on different council tax bands due to location.
To sum up, there is clearly a disconnect between us and travellers, a level of suspicion and mistrust that will prove difficult to overcome. But we must resist bias and we must also be prepared to hold selfish inconsiderate behaviour to account no matter who is responsible.
mariesnowgoose
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Ignorance and cultural differences on both sides of the fence?
Personally I detest anyone who dumps their rubbish and leaves crap behind wherever they go, and I don't care what "ethnicity" you claim to be. Police were hesitant to prosecute offenders in the Asian communities who were grooming and sex trafficking young lasses in case they were accused of racism and look where that got them. I think you need to nail your colours to the mast and cut through all this 'smokescreen and mirror' PC cr*p that is thrown up in defence of the defenceless.
If you're a criminal breaking the law then you're a criminal, full stop. Couldn't care less if you're martian with purple dots, matey.
Back on topic: rubbish and litter is a 'cultural' thing with me. My parents considered throwing rubbish away or littering the countryside to be almost as heinous a crime as murder! And so it's a value that sticks with me for the rest of my life, and a bloody good one imho.
So OK, I was brought up to respect the environment, but many (most?) Roma/gypsies/travellers aren't. Maybe that's a sweeping statement, but I can only go on what I have personally witnessed. Even settled Roma around here will use their own private land as a dumping ground for the rubbish they personally generate, or bring home from building and other jobs they are working on. It's obviously too much trouble to apply for the (free) licences needed to take your rubbish to the local tip in a van - and it IS too much trouble! Local councils & government need to come up with much better solutions for disposing of our rubbish, solutions that make it easier for people to dispose of rubbish responsibly, not more difficult !!!
My experience during the last 18 years living where we do has shown me that consideration for the natural environment amounts to zero for a lot of settled Roma living near me. They think nothing of chopping down valuable ancient woodland, dumping hazardous/polluting waste or filling in/blocking natural waterways on their own land to suit their own purposes.
But consideration for the environment is lacking right across the board. I see motorway verges and central reservations littered with all manner of detritus thrown from vehicle windows or left behind on lay-bys. Discarded plastic bottles full of p**s, takeaway food rubbish - you name it, it will be thrown away somewhere without regard to the consequences.
So who is really to blame for the environmental mess? Answers on a postcard please
Personally I detest anyone who dumps their rubbish and leaves crap behind wherever they go, and I don't care what "ethnicity" you claim to be. Police were hesitant to prosecute offenders in the Asian communities who were grooming and sex trafficking young lasses in case they were accused of racism and look where that got them. I think you need to nail your colours to the mast and cut through all this 'smokescreen and mirror' PC cr*p that is thrown up in defence of the defenceless.
If you're a criminal breaking the law then you're a criminal, full stop. Couldn't care less if you're martian with purple dots, matey.
Back on topic: rubbish and litter is a 'cultural' thing with me. My parents considered throwing rubbish away or littering the countryside to be almost as heinous a crime as murder! And so it's a value that sticks with me for the rest of my life, and a bloody good one imho.
So OK, I was brought up to respect the environment, but many (most?) Roma/gypsies/travellers aren't. Maybe that's a sweeping statement, but I can only go on what I have personally witnessed. Even settled Roma around here will use their own private land as a dumping ground for the rubbish they personally generate, or bring home from building and other jobs they are working on. It's obviously too much trouble to apply for the (free) licences needed to take your rubbish to the local tip in a van - and it IS too much trouble! Local councils & government need to come up with much better solutions for disposing of our rubbish, solutions that make it easier for people to dispose of rubbish responsibly, not more difficult !!!
My experience during the last 18 years living where we do has shown me that consideration for the natural environment amounts to zero for a lot of settled Roma living near me. They think nothing of chopping down valuable ancient woodland, dumping hazardous/polluting waste or filling in/blocking natural waterways on their own land to suit their own purposes.
But consideration for the environment is lacking right across the board. I see motorway verges and central reservations littered with all manner of detritus thrown from vehicle windows or left behind on lay-bys. Discarded plastic bottles full of p**s, takeaway food rubbish - you name it, it will be thrown away somewhere without regard to the consequences.
So who is really to blame for the environmental mess? Answers on a postcard please
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mariesnowgoose
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I've always though we should do much more with on-the-spot fines. Seem to remember a few countries in Europe practice this for parking offences, although I haven't been abroad for a good few years now (Greece springs to mind?). Don't see why similar instant fines shouldn't be applied to littering. Its always been an offence, but I've never, ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for it.
I think there have been a few recent experiments in a limited number of city/town centres to deter littering?
But this is not a mainstream policy and most councils don't employ anyone to enforce controls properly and effectively.
But with environmental awareness becoming much more mainstream now, the best we can hope for is that tougher laws will be introduced to deal with rubbish and its disposal.
Wouldn't hold your breath, though!
I think there have been a few recent experiments in a limited number of city/town centres to deter littering?
But this is not a mainstream policy and most councils don't employ anyone to enforce controls properly and effectively.
But with environmental awareness becoming much more mainstream now, the best we can hope for is that tougher laws will be introduced to deal with rubbish and its disposal.
Wouldn't hold your breath, though!
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Fisherman
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It always seems to me that there is a glaring contradiction with travellers.
They complain that there is nowhere for them to go, and yet when spaces are provided they ruin them. This creates division between us and them, (and there is an us and them), and furthermore limits the very thing thing that they crave, somewhere to stop.
Also this is vital for us as Motorhomers.
We must create a divide between us and them, we are not them, and they quite clearly are not us. To me this lack of division has created many problems for us. There is a misguided attitude amongst the general populous out there, that there is no difference, there is no division. This must change. In the continent and worldwide travellers and Motorhomers are not regarded as the same there is a division of attitude between us and them within the population. Until this message is understood by the general population, we will continue to be treated poorly.
They complain that there is nowhere for them to go, and yet when spaces are provided they ruin them. This creates division between us and them, (and there is an us and them), and furthermore limits the very thing thing that they crave, somewhere to stop.
Also this is vital for us as Motorhomers.
We must create a divide between us and them, we are not them, and they quite clearly are not us. To me this lack of division has created many problems for us. There is a misguided attitude amongst the general populous out there, that there is no difference, there is no division. This must change. In the continent and worldwide travellers and Motorhomers are not regarded as the same there is a division of attitude between us and them within the population. Until this message is understood by the general population, we will continue to be treated poorly.
runnach
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Marie if Kirklees is a typical barometer, the council spent £110.000 a couple of years ago clearing fly tipping sites, if those responsible were 100% travellers the cost is far less than providing proper provision a real lesser of two evils
As Collette mentioned councils were legally obliged to provide space that trailers could be placed. Albeit normally with limited planning permission,however the councils didn’t and we have what we have. The cost and assumption the facilities are provided free is pure nonsense ...those on the sites are liable for council tax
In Doncaster at the moment there are 92 travelling families mainly showmen who have no access to winter quarters , there displacement angers the settled community yet if dmbc did invest there would be a financial return in council tax collected. To compound the situation land owners acting off their own backs are refused permission that has happened in two locations I know of.
Of course I even if there were provision not every family would use it...but is that any different to members of our group who don’t want to or won’t use a campsite ?
Finally there seems resentment we are paying for special educational arrangements for traveller children ,,,that’s bollocks too mainstream schools are full of special educational need teachers or assistants ...should we mean test the parents ?
Some travellers are a bloody nuisance, some are very ethical in their ways just like the settled lot. I have no time for the anti social brigade who ever they are. But with constant de regulation a shrinking police force the law can’t be brought to bare it has had its teeth removed. The miscreant no that too which doesn’t help
As Collette mentioned councils were legally obliged to provide space that trailers could be placed. Albeit normally with limited planning permission,however the councils didn’t and we have what we have. The cost and assumption the facilities are provided free is pure nonsense ...those on the sites are liable for council tax
In Doncaster at the moment there are 92 travelling families mainly showmen who have no access to winter quarters , there displacement angers the settled community yet if dmbc did invest there would be a financial return in council tax collected. To compound the situation land owners acting off their own backs are refused permission that has happened in two locations I know of.
Of course I even if there were provision not every family would use it...but is that any different to members of our group who don’t want to or won’t use a campsite ?
Finally there seems resentment we are paying for special educational arrangements for traveller children ,,,that’s bollocks too mainstream schools are full of special educational need teachers or assistants ...should we mean test the parents ?
Some travellers are a bloody nuisance, some are very ethical in their ways just like the settled lot. I have no time for the anti social brigade who ever they are. But with constant de regulation a shrinking police force the law can’t be brought to bare it has had its teeth removed. The miscreant no that too which doesn’t help
mariesnowgoose
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Channa, my understanding is that showman are in a class of their own and quite different to the settled Roma who live near me.
Regardless, we should be providing more/better sites for all Travellers/Roma.
There is and always will be prejudice towards Roma, as there will always be ignorant prejudice towards anyone who is perceived to be 'different' to the local parochial population.
The bottom line for me is that most of our environmental (and many other) problems is because there are way too many of us Yuman's!
Look at any group of animals where the population grows crowded and you will experience tension, rivalries and spats.
What is needed - and this is very much my own personal opinion - is a good dose of Yuman myxomatosis!
Maybe something like this recent Chinese coronavirus?
Sounds like if it hits here it could wipe out at least half the UK population of moho owners, possibly even me! rofpml
Hope it waits until I've at least had chance to have a few trips out in new camper first... !
myxomatosis
Regardless, we should be providing more/better sites for all Travellers/Roma.
There is and always will be prejudice towards Roma, as there will always be ignorant prejudice towards anyone who is perceived to be 'different' to the local parochial population.
The bottom line for me is that most of our environmental (and many other) problems is because there are way too many of us Yuman's!
Look at any group of animals where the population grows crowded and you will experience tension, rivalries and spats.
What is needed - and this is very much my own personal opinion - is a good dose of Yuman myxomatosis!
Maybe something like this recent Chinese coronavirus?
Sounds like if it hits here it could wipe out at least half the UK population of moho owners, possibly even me! rofpml
Hope it waits until I've at least had chance to have a few trips out in new camper first... !
myxomatosis