interesting new court ruling re gypsies and right to roam

[GreggBear]

Agreed, but still think its down to respecting your surroundings. If I need to dump some rubbish & I find a full bin, I just keep looking till I find one that's empty. No way would I use a full bin/ no bin as an excuse to throw litter anywhere.

 

[martinmartin]

I see the judgement hinged on the European convention of human rights. Echr may eventually be overturned once were out.

 

[hextal]

I think it is fantastic news,the wildcamp community were worried about the proposed trespass laws. It is a victory for personal freedom the fact some travellers and wild campers are disrespectful to their environment is not sufficient reason to curb everyone’s liberty there is still mechanisms by which anti social behaviour is dealt with effectively more polic resources for a start.

The hypocrisy is if we tar all travelling groups the same then we must treat settled community wild campers the same can you imagine the uproar?

Travellers are a victim group, the terms some posters use here and their obvious dislike they wouldnt openly say about others eg blacks,and they wouldn’t remain published

As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?

I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.

That said, how often does a group (as representative of the wider group a they may or not be) have to act in a particular way before there is an acknowledged link?

Let's say that you are walking down the road and a teenager punches you. The next week a different teenager punches you, and so on. Now, those teenagers clearly cannot be said to be representative of the norm. However, I also don't think anyone would be surprised if the person developed something of a mistrust of teenagers.

So the question I guess would be, does this mean that the person is a bigot, or is it a reasonable view to adopt based on personal experience?

You then get into the much murkier issue of real/direct experience as compared to whipped up feelings by telly, papers, interweb, etc.

 

[runnach]

As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?

I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.

That said, how often does a group (as representative of the wider group a they may or not be) have to act in a particular way before there is an acknowledged link?

Let's say that you are walking down the road and a teenager punches you. The next week a different teenager punches you, and so on. Now, those teenagers clearly cannot be said to be representative of the norm. However, I also don't think anyone would be surprised if the person developed something of a mistrust of teenagers.

So the question I guess would be, does this mean that the person is a bigot, or is it a reasonable view to adopt based on personal experience?

You then get into the much murkier issue of real/direct experience as compared to whipped up feelings by telly, papers, interweb, etc.

A valid question,often muted by the BAME community who proportionately are more likely to spend time in prison. Is it because they are all wrong uns or does society subconsciously discriminate? I guess you could offer convincing arguments on both sides.

This is were we need to be careful and considered, wildcamping to the larger population we are treated with suspicion by most authorities and I’m sure if the folk lurking in supermarkets emptying human waste concealed as an example were highlighted in the mainstream, there would be more resentment. Some may see borrowing water from churchyards distasteful we all have different moral compasses.

But if we were all banned from parking up somewhere these very pages start an outpoor of how unfair it is and probably is ..it follows that we shouldn’t be hypocritical and label other groups as definitive theives.or anti socials

 

[Deleted member 72907]

As a genuine and odd question, at what point does evidence or percentages dispute discrimination?

I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.

That said, how often does a group (as representative of the wider group a they may or not be) have to act in a particular way before there is an acknowledged link?

Let's say that you are walking down the road and a teenager punches you. The next week a different teenager punches you, and so on. Now, those teenagers clearly cannot be said to be representative of the norm. However, I also don't think anyone would be surprised if the person developed something of a mistrust of teenagers.

So the question I guess would be, does this mean that the person is a bigot, or is it a reasonable view to adopt based on personal experience?

You then get into the much murkier issue of real/direct experience as compared to whipped up feelings by telly, papers, interweb, etc.

I suppose that’s part of the reason we need and have judges and courts. I see that Bromley attempted to get an injunction and was rejected by the High Court and now has failed in the Court of Appeal - I don’t now if they have sought leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. In any event, whatever Joe Bloggs and I think about it, higher authorities have spoken.

 

[hextal]

A valid question,often muted by the BAME community who proportionately are more likely to spend time in prison. Is it because they are all wrong uns or does society subconsciously discriminate? I guess you could offer convincing arguments on both sides.

This is were we need to be careful and considered, wildcamping to the larger population we are treated with suspicion by most authorities and I’m sure if the folk lurking in supermarkets emptying human waste concealed as an example were highlighted in the mainstream, there would be more resentment. Some may see borrowing water from churchyards distasteful we all have different moral compasses.

But if we were all banned from parking up somewhere these very pages start an outpoor of how unfair it is and probably is ..it follows that we shouldn’t be hypocritical and label other groups as definitive theives.or anti socials

Funnily enough I nicked my example from the Reni Edo Lodge book about her experiences of stereotypes and unconscious (as well as blatant) racism as a black woman. I just substituted 'white person' with 'teenager'.

Yup, as with pretty much most things unfortunately, there's always a balance point, and it almost always gets overshot with each swing from one side to the other (I think I'm mixing my metaphors here)

 

[izwozral]

See what you have done Delish? You have turned this lot into fillysofikkalist, when all we wanted to do was bash the poor down trodden, misunderstood miscreants who will sneer at our misguided liberal thinking.

We want to bash somebody not talk about why we want to bash somebody..


That's from the Jerry Springer Lodge book.

Tin hat firmly on.

 

[Wooie1958]

Consideration needs to be earned, once they start showing us a little consideration then we might start showing them some.

At this moment in time they couldn`t give a fcuk about us as highlighted in some of the previous posts.

 

[Nabsim]

I think it is fair to say that no one person represents a group, and no small group represents larger group, etc.
Quote shortened to this one paragraph

For me this is one of the things wrong with the world today. We have to have a group or a label for everything.
There are bad buggers in life and it’s the bad bugger that should be dealt with not his family/mates/country.
Individuals should be held accountable.
I have been wrongly judged fairly often by my appearance or by the groups I have been with but that’s others loss not mine. I try to treat everyone the same until I have a reason not to and fir me that’s how it should be.
Probably a throw back to my younger hippy days though lol

 

[Debroos]

i think it was 1984 a Bill was passed empowering and forcing local authorities to provide sites for travelling communities. very very few were ever built. i think i read lately that the bill was quietly dropped from local authority duties... but i could be wrong. we can hardly blame a travelling community for leaving rubbish if no facilities are provided for them - and lets not be hypocritical here - we could be talking campervan owners here to. It is indeed a vexed question but the romany/travelling community have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and deserve a little consideration. Other types of part time travelling communities have different needs.

I agree, apart from the rubbish. I know you can't take rubbish to a recycle place for free in a van but they do have enough cars to be able to bag it up and take it there as it is free then. And if it is work rubbish, then like everyone else, they should pay to dispose of it.
I haven't seen many sites after travellers have been there but the ones I have seen were all left immaculate. (Lucky I know!)

On the other hand if I, my family and my ancestors had been ostracized and vilified for hundreds of years then I probably wouldn't give a stuff about being considerate to the society that had done that to me.

 

[maureenandtom]

If you were to believe local authorities then we are no different to those Travellers who, some say, always leave rubbish behnd them.

When local authorities allege complaints from the public about motorhomers then we, unjustly, accept that councils are truthful. No council claiming that we have caused complaints from the public has ever been able to produce the complaints they have said had been generated. Never. Dornoch Beach recently, for example.

There are different classes of Traveller. All deserve to be called Traveller not traveller. One of the accepted classes is New Traveller and each of us can claim to self-identify as a New Traveller. The protection of the law is available to us.

And, yes to those who say we need someone to speak for us. We do.

I applaud this judgment.

 

[Fisherman]

I think it is fantastic news,the wildcamp community were worried about the proposed trespass laws. It is a victory for personal freedom the fact some travellers and wild campers are disrespectful to their environment is not sufficient reason to curb everyone’s liberty there is still mechanisms by which anti social behaviour is dealt with effectively more polic resources for a start.

The hypocrisy is if we tar all travelling groups the same then we must treat settled community wild campers the same can you imagine the uproar?

Travellers are a victim group, the terms some posters use here and their obvious dislike they wouldnt openly say about others eg blacks,and they wouldn’t remain published

Spot on.

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Interesting stuff.

Topics like this always gets me thinking. Here's a 2019 government report:-

Count of Traveller Caravans, July 2019 England

I know it probably doesn't cover the full total of Romany/Gypsy Travelllers moving about, or possibly even the numbers with camper vans (doesn't say if the report distinguishes between caravans and campers/mohos, or whether it counts both in) but it gives a pretty good clue on numbers.

At 23,125 that's a mere drop in the ocean when set against a total population in England of 66.87 million inhabitants.
Maybe someone can work out the actually percentage? (I'm useless at maths, but I do know that's an insignificant number!).

Just sayin'

 

[izwozral]

Interesting stuff.

Topics like this always gets me thinking. Here's a 2019 government report:-

Count of Traveller Caravans, July 2019 England

I know it probably doesn't cover the full total of Romany/Gypsy Travelllers moving about, or possibly even the numbers with camper vans (doesn't say if the report distinguishes between caravans and campers/mohos, or whether it counts both in) but it gives a pretty good clue on numbers.

At 23,125 that's a mere drop in the ocean when set against a total population in England of 66.87 million inhabitants.
Maybe someone can work out the actually percentage? (I'm useless at maths, but I do know that's an insignificant number!).

Just sayin'

Not sure of your point Marie but percentage is about .03 of the population.

 

[Debroos]

If you were to believe local authorities then we are no different to those Travellers who, some say, always leave rubbish behnd them.

When local authorities allege complaints from the public about motorhomers then we, unjustly, accept that councils are truthful. No council claiming that we have caused complaints from the public has ever been able to produce the complaints they have said had been generated. Never. Dornoch Beach recently, for example.

There are different classes of Traveller. All deserve to be called Traveller not traveller. One of the accepted classes is New Traveller and each of us can claim to self-identify as a New Traveller. The protection of the law is available to us.

And, yes to those who say we need someone to speak for us. We do.

I applaud this judgment.

Wouldn't you have to be fulltiming to be able to claim to be New Age Traveller?

 

[mariesnowgoose]

Not sure of your point Marie but percentage is about .03 of the population.

I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.

The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-

"In the UK, it is estimated that there are in current use: 555,000 touring caravans. 365,000 caravan holiday homes. 225,000 motorhomes".

So, to go back to my musings, if just over 23,000 caravans/mohos are reckoned to be in use by the Romany/Gypsy Travelling community, that again is only a small amount of the total out there on the road. We have lots of settled Roma living in County Durham, for example, and other than maybe going once a year to Appleby Fair they are working hard at making a living the rest of the time, just like everyone else.

Given that it is calculated that there are about 200,000 Roma settled in the UK out of a total UK population of 66.87 million I find it hard to believe that the Roma are responsible for the majority of the fly-tipping and rubbish dumping that goes on right across the country.

I guess one way to put all the speculation and stigma to bed would be for someone to undertake a proper study of where rubbish is being left/dumped across the board and who by?

 

[martinmartin]

I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.

The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-

"In the UK, it is estimated that there are in current use: 555,000 touring caravans. 365,000 caravan holiday homes. 225,000 motorhomes".

So, to go back to my musings, if just over 23,000 caravans/mohos are reckoned to be in use by the Romany/Gypsy Travelling community, that again is only a small amount of the total out there on the road. We have lots of settled Roma living in County Durham, for example, and other than maybe going once a year to Appleby Fair they are working hard at making a living the rest of the time, just like everyone else.

Given that it is calculated that there are about 200,000 Roma settled in the UK out of a total UK population of 66.87 million I find it hard to believe that the Roma are responsible for the majority of the fly-tipping and rubbish dumping that goes on right across the country.

I guess one way to put all the speculation and stigma to bed would be for someone to undertake a proper study of where rubbish is being left/dumped across the board and who by?

Just like the majority of crimes are committed by the minority ,fly tipping and rubbish dumping falls into the same category.

 

[izwozral]

I'm just thinking of the total number of people travelling around the UK in motorhomes & caravans and how many of those are true Roma/Travellers.

The media will make you think there are gypsy travellers around every corner leaving crap everywhere, but the National Caravan Council gives the following statistics:-

"In the UK, it is estimated that there are in current use: 555,000 touring caravans. 365,000 caravan holiday homes. 225,000 motorhomes".

So, to go back to my musings, if just over 23,000 caravans/mohos are reckoned to be in use by the Romany/Gypsy Travelling community, that again is only a small amount of the total out there on the road. We have lots of settled Roma living in County Durham, for example, and other than maybe going once a year to Appleby Fair they are working hard at making a living the rest of the time, just like everyone else.

Given that it is calculated that there are about 200,000 Roma settled in the UK out of a total UK population of 66.87 million I find it hard to believe that the Roma are responsible for the majority of the fly-tipping and rubbish dumping that goes on right across the country.

I guess one way to put all the speculation and stigma to bed would be for someone to undertake a proper study of where rubbish is being left/dumped across the board and who by?

I understand what you are saying, I suppose the gypsy's are more visible inasmuch they park up and leave their rubbish behind and the public see the aftermath, whereas the fly tippers, the morons who throw rubbish out of car windows and those that drop litter are seen in isolation. If you see what I mean?

I am sure most people can cite incidences where they have seen unofficial gypsy camps and the mess they leave, I certainly can, it is a bi-annual event in the centre of Nantwich.

The worse Iz and I observed and were affected by was at a wilding spot in Yorkshire on some common land, we were there along with about another half dozen MH's. Glorious sunny day, kids playing in the river, MH'ers chatting with each other and generally having a good time. Then came a dozen or so vehicles of various types, dirt bikes off loaded and soon tearing around the common land spooking the sheep who were in lamb, teens throwing rocks and bottles in the river, adults not saying a blind thing about their kids behaviour.
We and the other MH'ers upped and left apart from one. a few hours later Iz and I returned, the gypsy's had gone but left a right old mess. We and the couple who had stayed collected a dozen bin bags full of rubbish, there was none before the gypsy's arrived. We took the rubbish to a wheeled skip which is left next to cattle grid just a couple of hundred yards away. There was nothing we could do about the broken glass in the river apart from pick up the larger pieces and we called at a local farm house to report a sheep that had got caught in the barb wire fencing fleeing from the dirt bikes. The fencing needed cutting because the sheep was completely entangled and we had no cutters. Unfortunately, the farm we called at were not the owners of the sheep and there was just a young girl at home who said she would ring around, that poor sheep was tangled up for hours before it was freed. It had likely lost it's lamb along with some of the others.

I don't have much admiration or time for the gypsy's.

 

[maureenandtom]

Wouldn't you have to be fulltiming to be able to claim to be New Age Traveller?

Good point. I know that some Travellers also lead a settled existence and still believe themselves Travellers. So I looked up where I thought I'd seen this as being accepted. I couldn't find it but I do believe it is there somewhere. So, certainly full-timers and, I believe, any of us who choose the self-identify as New Travellers.

The easiest readily-available document is that issued by Cumbria Police (because of the Appleby business) but I think several other authorities have similar doucments. Coogle "Gypsy and Traveller Policy - Cumbria Police" for a word document.

Here's a couple of extracts.

 

[1 Cup]

Was this subject the foundation of the troll system now in place.
NIMBY..