HYDROGEN ASSIST for Petrol or Diesel

[RoadTrek Boy]

I mentioned on another thread that I had Hydrogen Assist fitted and would let you good (and not so good) folk how I got on.
Well long story short, I haven’t been on any decent runs so it’s difficult to tell, but I recon fuel consumption has improved by 20% to 33% the engine definitely runs smoother and has a notable improvement in torque.
The Van is a 2001 Roadtrek Versatile 190 on a Dodge RAM 3500 Van base with a 5.2l V8 Petrol engine.

 

[invalid]

I presume that you have a Hydrogen on demand system fitted, feeding into your carburettor, the trouble with all these systems is that unless it's on a rolling road there is a vast gap for human error, you expect it to return a better fuel figure so unintentionally you drive better and return a better fuel economy. Quite a lot of your 20% might simply be down to better road conditions, weather, looking ahead for less braking, etc. But if this makes you a better driver and helps give better fuel economy more power to you.
I make my own bio and blend and use octane improvers, works well for me hope you are happy with your results. :cheers:

 

[Firefox]

My opinion of them is that they are a complete scam.

I offer 2 clues which come from different angles.

1. The first law of thermodynamics.

2. If they were any good, they would be fitted as standard by manufacturers. Manufacturers spend billions extracting tiny improvements in performance from all kinds of places. Why are they passing up the chance to improve their models by "20% to 33%" just by adding a simple HHO kit for a £100 of parts?

If you don't believe me read

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

and

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

My opinion of them is that they are a complete scam.

I offer 2 clues which come from different angles.

1. The first law of thermodynamics.

2. If they were any good, they would be fitted as standard by manufacturers. Manufacturers spend billions extracting tiny improvements in performance from all kinds of places. Why are they passing up the chance to improve their models by "20% to 33%" just by adding a simple HHO kit for a £100 of parts?

If you don't believe me read

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

and

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

I agree, that to break down water to Hydrogen and Oxygen to run a heat engine would require more energy input than you get out, BUT nobody is suggesting that you "run your car on water", the clue is in the word assist, by adding a small amount of hydrogen to the air entering the engine you improve the burn of your existing fuel, there is a fair bit of Scientific information out there if you care to look.

 

[Firefox]

This part about improving efficiency is all covered in great detail in the second link I gave above (it actually looks as though it is the same link but it is to a different section)

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

If still you don't like the science argument, then try the other and ask yourself why no manufacturer today is fitting £100 worth of parts to get massive improvements for their vehicle and blowing the competition out the water, yet they are spending huge amounts making their vehicles more efficient in other ways.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

I presume that you have a Hydrogen on demand system fitted, feeding into your carburettor, the trouble with all these systems is that unless it's on a rolling road there is a vast gap for human error, you expect it to return a better fuel figure so unintentionally you drive better and return a better fuel economy. Quite a lot of your 20% might simply be down to better road conditions, weather, looking ahead for less braking, etc. But if this makes you a better driver and helps give better fuel economy more power to you.
I make my own bio and blend and use octane improvers, works well for me hope you are happy with your results. :cheers:

I agree with what you say, but from my point of view I knew that it was a thirsty beast before I bought it, so drove back from London with a very very light touch on the throttle (I expected 17 to 20Mpg, so was surprised I only achieved 15mpg) I had intended to put Hydrogen assist on it anyway due to a friend who had it fitted, he didn't notice any improvement to mpg but was very impressed by the extra Torque.
I noticed the extra Torque and how the engine ran smoother immediately, I had parked in the same spot that I had parked in when I had popped in to place an order and arrange fitting, it's an Automatic and I had to reverse out, previously I had to apply throttle to move and was a little jerky, this time as soon as i took my foot off the brake she began to move and required a much lighter touch on the throttle. (the engine tick-over rpm is controlled by the ECU)
I have an open mind and have fitted a Scan Gauge 2 to give me a better idea how things are progressing, its early days and need to tune in the device to find the sweet spot.

 

[Firefox]

If you have an open mind, you could try this very simple test from the link I gave. Rather than quoting anecdotal evidence about torque and smoothness, this test will be rather more objective.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]First, make sure you can turn your electrolysis cell off and on while driving - a simple switch at the driving position will do this.[/FONT]Now with the cell turned off, drive at a constant 60mph for a minute or two, so that the engine reaches a steady temperature. Don't use cruise-control, just use your foot to position the gas-pedal so your speed remains constant.
Without moving your foot (the one on the gas pedal), turn on your electrolysis cell.
Now if all the claims for HHO are true, your engine will be developing 20%-30% *more* power than it did with the electrolysis cell turned off -- so you should notice your speed increase to around 70-75mph as the HHO gas starts flowing.
If you don't get this increase, then it's not working.

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

Tell me Firefox, what experience do you have regarding these systems? I had read a lot of the negatives and positives and didn't know what to believe, but noticed the negatives were all theory, and a certain amount of contradiction.
Keeping an open mind I decided to take a punt rather than adding LPG conversion (Much more expensive, plus finding space and carrying around a large heavy tank) If it worked great, if not I would try and get some, if not all my money back.
Regarding your trotted out argument ref Vehicle manufactures, you really need to ask them, but I reckon because it would cause too much hassle and they wouldn't gain any more profit because the majority of their customers,
1 Wouldn't notice any difference.
2 Check the water level on a regular enough basis, or have any understanding on why they should.

Hydrogen assist isn't for everyone, you do need to have some practical skills to get the best out of it.

Perhaps it's not for you, Firefox.

 

[colinm]

Some years back a large prize was offered for anyone able to supply and scientifically prove their HHO devise, to my knowledge the prize remains uncollected.

 

[Firefox]

...Vehicle manufactures, you really need to ask them, but I reckon because it would cause too much hassle and they wouldn't gain any more profit because the majority of their customers,
1 Wouldn't notice any difference.
2 Check the water level on a regular enough basis, or have any understanding on why they should...

They wouldn't notice any difference because there is no difference. It is a scam! I'm not sure how I can put it any clearer than that. Are you telling me the general public would be too stupid to notice "20 to 30% improvement" over the unmodified vehicles.

Perhaps the majority of customers won't have any understanding on checking the oil level or the tyres either :lol-053: May as well not sell cars at all to the general public at all.

Come on... your arguments are increasingly desperate!

You admit yourself it is too early to tell, you don't have any real data at the moment, and your friend didn't get any improved mpg either. All of your claimed improvements are anecdotal and subjective. Yet you are recommending that a member of this forum also wastes £400 or whatever on one of these devices.

Why don't you undertake the test I described above? Put an on/off switch for your system on the dash. Drive at constant 60 mph. Without altering the position of your foot on the accelerator, switch on the system. You will notice a "20% to 33%" surge in torque as the hydrogen kicks in. Or conversely have your system switched on while you hold at a constant 60 and then switch the system off. You will notice the speed decrease as the benefits are lost.

Or take it on a rolling road and get the performance analysed with the system off and then switched on.

 

[iampatman]

I met a guy from South Africa on a Sosta in Italy last year. We got chatting and he told me that he owned a company that had developed a system for adding water to diesel fuel which not only had the benefit of providing cheaper fuel but improved engine performance. He said it wasn't a new idea but his company was the only one that had developed an emulsifying agent that would prevent the two liquids "splitting". Additionally other competitors emulsifiers needed a long and complicated "agitation" process to bind the two liquids wheras his just needed "a bit of shaking up".
I said that this was a wonderful idea and enquired as to why he wasn't a billionaire and the system in use globally. He replied that the oil companies had a vested interest in opposing the idea so he was trying to market the system to smaller African nations which then started him off on corruption issues which were thwarting him.
Seemed like a nice enough guy though.
Pat

Am I still on topic?

 

[Deleted member 3011]

If someone came up with a device that gave even 2% improvement in fuel economy, all the major transport companies would have them fitted in an instant.

Air tabs is one such device. Cheap, passive, easy to fit and last forever, yet major truckers who would stand to save millions each year don't fit them. Why?

Browns Gas, Hyclones, magnetic devices, fuel catalysts and a million other magic devices all have one thing in common. There is only one legitimate claim anyone can make for them and that is they are very efficient at parting gullible people from their money.

Aftermarket Retrofit Device Evaluation Program | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA has a very long list of evaluation reports of fuel savers, many of which make interesting reading
also -
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0057-gas-saving-products
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/420f11036.pdf

etc etc etc

Then if you are still bored and it is raining outside and you have nothing better to do, just google "browns gas fact or scam" and read on.

Another bit of light reading - google "confirmation bias" and you will see that all things might be possible if you believe hard enough

 

[scottypaul]

there was a fuel additive in the early 80`s called formula 2000 was sold as an octane booster and fuel saver. one of the oil companies paid big money for it and then it disappeared off the shelves.

 

[Firefox]

The development of marketing hydrogen generators in recent time has been intriguing.

There was a huge explosion of after-market kits from 2008 to 2011. When the psuedo-science was blown out the water, and people got no measurable results improving their vehicles, the techno-babble changed from "HHO" to "hydrogen assist". The kit is exactly the same, just different lies and explanations. When all else fails, those who still believe, turn to tales of oil companies or manufacturers suppressing their technology

Some more interesting reading from Nature and Wikipedia:

Burning water and other myths : Nature News

Hydrogen fuel enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[baldybloke]

If you want to improve the running costs of a petrol engine, get an log kit installed, no improvement on mpg, but a massive saving on running costs (and less money for the politicians biscuit fund)

 

[ricc]

hi colin

how long have you owned this vehicle

how many miles have you driven itbefore fitting the kit.

how long have you had this kit fitted?

how many miles have you done since fitting?

 

[piman]

Hello David,

the pellets you refer to were introduced around the time when leaded petrol was being phased out. They, too, were a scam.
Your friend's Land Rover would have done many thousands of miles without detriment to the valve seats because the seats had a coating from the tetra ethyl lead in leaded petrol which continued to protect them, as does keeping an engine below 3,000 rpm or so (The average Land Rover would typically be driven at moderate rpm). Even without lead memory, unless an engine is driven hard and at higher rpm unleaded does not generally cause valve seat erosion despite the horror tales.

Alec

 

[RoadTrek Boy]

My my, we do have the nay Sayers coming out of the woodwork, anyone would think I am trying to sell these kits.
I have reported what I personally have found, if that upsets some of you, tough.
If it's a placebo effect that's still great because on my last run I achieved a saving of between 20% to 33% and that was up and our Devon hills.

Now tell me this, if it is such a big scam how come the company is still in business, has been for quite a number of years, telephone number and full address freely available and if you put their name into Google you even get a map showing you where they are, hardly the actions of a snake oil Co.
They are also expanding!

http://www.hydrogenhybrids.uk.com/contact-us/

 

[ChrisInNotts]

My my, we do have the nay Sayers coming out of the woodwork, anyone would think I am trying to sell these kits.
I have reported what I personally have found, if that upsets some of you, tough.
If it's a placebo effect that's still great because on my last run I achieved a saving of between 20% to 33% and that was up and our Devon hills.

Now tell me this, if it is such a big scam how come the company is still in business, has been for quite a number of years, telephone number and full address freely available and if you put their name into Google you even get a map showing you where they are, hardly the actions of a snake oil Co.
They are also expanding!

Contact Us - Hydrogen Hybrids

Trouble is you have come on a public forum with claims that it works and no evidence apart from a quoted saving. Lets see your numbers and how you arrived at them.

Keith

 

[Fazerloz]

Are you happy with the roadtrek Colin. Is there anything about it you don't like or would change. I am still looking for one. :wave: