HYDROGEN ASSIST for Petrol or Diesel

Don't forget that some of the benefits may not relate to economy, they could be cleaner burn, cleaner exhaust emissions, and better idling tick over. I studied thermodynamics and advanced maths at university at the end of the 60’s to truly quantify everything is very difficult, unless you have a lab, weight of batteries extra power consumption from alternator etc, Many years ago I built a hydrogen producer, great to blow up and explode balloons, and I know some truck companies believe in the technology. To be fair I don’t think the maths stack up, but you are right, if you feel it’s working for you great, ignore us and enjoy yourself and post figures if you can, I’m afraid that as we get older being cynical is all were left with. :cheers:
 
invalid said:
Don't forget that some of the benefits may not relate to economy, they could be cleaner burn, cleaner exhaust emissions, and better idling tick over. I studied thermodynamics and advanced maths at university at the end of the 60’s to truly quantify everything is very difficult, unless you have a lab, weight of batteries extra power consumption from alternator etc, Many years ago I built a hydrogen producer, great to blow up and explode balloons, and I know some truck companies believe in the technology. To be fair I don’t think the maths stack up, but you are right, if you feel it’s working for you great, ignore us and enjoy yourself and post figures if you can, I’m afraid that as we get older being cynical is all were left with. :cheers:
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The trouble is that it is encouraging the technology if such claims are not challenged. At the end of the day the electrical energy required to split the water to generate the hydrogen must come from the fuel being burnt. Thus, the only potential way this could work is, as you say, by increasing efficiency of the fuel burn. I am fully aware that water injection etc can have effects to improve efficiency and/or power. However a claim of a 22-30 % increase in efficiency of an engine is a staggering increase. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence......

Keith
 
I think it's the same with every device....you have solar panels? I cAn post you a million links to show how really useless they are. You have a sterling b2b charger? I will post you millions of links from people who say their useless. Had a an engine remap? There are doubters for that too. You pays your money and takes your chance. If somebody says he has seen an improvement and has no affiliation to the company why should I doubt that. I want a bit more torque if I get a couple of mpg more that's a bonus.
 
Well, if and when you have it fitted, try the test described above.

Drive it at a constant 60mph with the unit switched off. Without altering the position of your foot on the pedal, switch on the unit and watch it zoom up to 70mph as the additional torque surges in!
 
I will tell you honestly what I see that's different. I think that test is not quite scientific.. So...do you have solar panels...or had a remap? Maybe you buy premium diesel ? Perhaps you got Camper tyres on? Do you use elsan liquid in your WC.
I had a remap on the old van.....but if I did the test that you mention there would have been no difference..but I could pull wheel spins in first gear....it caused the clutch to slip....even a brand new one. And was saving on average 3 mpg this was over 25k miles. £150 well spent.
so you have posted a few links. Pepsi seem to think it works...go check that link out. And a lot more transport companies. And 20 years ago they said electric cars were unfeasable....guess what?
So you don't believe....that's fine. I have an open mind so will give it a try.
 
Tezza said:
I will tell you honestly what I see that's different. I think that test is not quite scientific.. So...do you have solar panels...or had a remap? Maybe you buy premium diesel ? Perhaps you got Camper tyres on? Do you use elsan liquid in your WC.
I had a remap on the old van.....but if I did the test that you mention there would have been no difference..but I could pull wheel spins in first gear....it caused the clutch to slip....even a brand new one. And was saving on average 3 mpg this was over 25k miles. £150 well spent.
so you have posted a few links. Pepsi seem to think it works...go check that link out. And a lot more transport companies. And 20 years ago they said electric cars were unfeasable....guess what?
So you don't believe....that's fine. I have an open mind so will give it a try.
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I for one will be interested Tez. I have had a re-map & there is definitely more torque & more mpg. Anything that gives me more for my bucks, I am interested in. Please let us know how you get on.
 
I don't have a problem with hydrogen in the form of hydrogen tanks which can be refilled with hydrogen imported to the system. I think this is the future. But I do have a problem with trying to extract tiny amounts of hydrogen in an on-board process using the alternator and power from the engine.

People seem to quote "hydrogen" as a universal cure-all, without worrying about where the hydrogen is coming from.

Edit: By the way. No hard feelings, it's nothing personal. I do have an Engineering Degree which included a Thermodynamics module, and have made a long study on HHO and alternative energy devices as well as their marketing on the net. I also have an interest in protecting people from scams, so I can only state it as I see it.
 
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ricc said:
hi colin

how long have you owned this vehicle

how many miles have you driven itbefore fitting the kit.

how long have you had this kit fitted?

how many miles have you done since fitting?
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Sorry not to have replied earlier, I am very slow at typing and depending on my joints I can get even slower..:eek:

I purchased the vehicle in Sept, I filled up in Horsham and travelled down to Torbay via a few diversions (After midnight) due to roadwork’s, I filled up again next day having travelled 381 km and used 72 litres =15mpg

I went up to Exeter to see someone, straight there and back 13mpg. 84 km

I had the kit fitted at the end of Sept but just did short runs to Torquay and back (Very thirsty (as low as 4mpg) until temps up, needs to be 190+F but does warm up fairly quickly, about 3miles, if it’s cold and I turn the beast around on my drive it will most probably drink 1or 2 litres.

I purchased and fitted a Scan Guage2 and now monitor litres per mile instant, and litres per mile average.

The Co I purchased the HHO kit from is just up the road (about 3miles) they also guarantee a saving but you do need to work with them to fine tune things.

Hope this helps.
 
Fazerloz said:
Are you happy with the roadtrek Colin. Is there anything about it you don't like or would change. I am still looking for one. :wave:
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I am pleased with the wagon apart from being a fuleholic, mine is on a Dodge RAM 3500 base, whether the Chevy is better I don't know.
I haven't managed to get away in it yet. :cry:
 
ChrisInNotts said:
The trouble is that it is encouraging the technology if such claims are not challenged. At the end of the day the electrical energy required to split the water to generate the hydrogen must come from the fuel being burnt. Thus, the only potential way this could work is, as you say, by increasing efficiency of the fuel burn. I am fully aware that water injection etc can have effects to improve efficiency and/or power. However a claim of a 22-30 % increase in efficiency of an engine is a staggering increase. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence......

Keith
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Until I can do a decent run up the motorway, dual carriage way and moniter mileage and fuel used its difficult to give exact figures, also the weather plays a part, my driving could be more economy aware,but not to the improvements I am seeing, also my driving wouldn't improve the Torque that I noticed immediately.
If I had found no improvement I would have said so, out of interest I am running with the cell (Truck cell) drawing 7.5Amps at the moment, but will adjust to try and fine tune. :drive:
 
Firefox said:
I don't have a problem with hydrogen in the form of hydrogen tanks which can be refilled with hydrogen imported to the system. I think this is the future. But I do have a problem with trying to extract tiny amounts of hydrogen in an on-board process using the alternator and power from the engine.

People seem to quote "hydrogen" as a universal cure-all, without worrying about where the hydrogen is coming from.

Edit: By the way. No hard feelings, it's nothing personal. I do have an Engineering Degree which included a Thermodynamics module, and have made a long study on HHO and alternative energy devices as well as their marketing on the net. I also have an interest in protecting people from scams, so I can only state it as I see it.
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I agree, there is a lot of scams out there, and they don't stay around long, try getting hold of them a year later?
These guys who developed the system are freely available with full address, telephone No's and map how to find them, they have also been there a few years now, it will be interesting how Tezza gets on, I'm sure he will be a happy bunny. :rabbit:

I am surprised at your earlier post regarding that rubbish about keeping your foot still on the throttle and switching off or on the unit, as someone with an Engineering Degree Etc I would expect you to see where it falls down,

A little story, back in the 70's I was working in the R&D section of a co making flux cored welding wires, one of my duties was mixing the test formulas and making a small batch of the wire, then running test welds, the formulas had various codes, vertical up wires usually started with a V, I had a V code formula come down for 1/8dia wire, and I welded vertically up not bad but not brilliant, I put that down to my lack of experience, the boss rang from head office to find out how the test had gone, when I said fine but v/up is a bit difficult but I reckon an experienced welder would be fine, he asked me why I was testing v/up, I said because it had a V code, 2hrs later (that's how long it took to drive from head office) the chairman and metallurgist walked in wanting to look at what I had done (apparently up until then welding V/up with 1/8 wire was impossible, but nobody had told me) they then developed a 1/8 V/up flux cored wire. ;)
 
All these different HHO schemes are basically the same construction. You use current from the engine to separate hydrogen and oxygen from water.

At the start they claimed the alternator was spinning freely anyway and therefore it was "free" electricity. That was quickly dismissed, so they turned to other "explanations".

30% fuel savings are frequently claimed. At such huge levels it shouldn't make a big difference as to the construction of the kit. You will surely see some saving regardless of the manufacturer of the kit. The fact is that no savings have been properly verified on any kit.

Instead of trying to prove efficiency yourself, take the vehicle on a rolling road. Conduct before and after tests and get everything scientifically measured. Nobody has ever done this successfully with an HHO kit. They all rely on anecdotal observations or home-made fuel tests. Take it on a rolling road, publish power and fuel data, and you will be the first!
 
Complete layman here but can I just point out a bit of schoolboy science. Hydrogen burns in air. Mix Hydrogen with air and burning it is called exploding a bomb, which is why I think we are not driving Hydrogen powered cars. May not be a good idea to try and do a DIY kit if anyone is thinking of it. :)

Richard
 
im also a graduate engineer

whilst i can accept anecdotal claims of improved torque, smoother running or improved drivability i would question the 30 % decrease in fuel consuption , in this case there just isnt enough reliable data on the pre installation fuel consumption. if the op had driven the vehicle several thousands of miles over a period of months or years with varing loads and weather and had a well established mpg to make comparisons with it would make any improvement claims a lot more credible.

i usually fill to pump cut off at every refuelling and work out mpg for evey tank full from the trip recorder.
over the years it gives an insight of how usage affect the figures, even then theres no gaurentee that im filling to the same foint every time so you can only average the figure over several tank fills.....fills from near empty rather than top ups of a gallon or two give more accurate figures cos the effect of a pint or two variation in the full level is less on the larger quantity..


instant reading mpg meters have to be used with care to get any meaningful results.


having said all that, with a petrol powered beast anything that gives a hope of more economy has to be worth investigation.
 
Tbear said:
Complete layman here but can I just point out a bit of schoolboy science. Hydrogen burns in air. Mix Hydrogen with air and burning it is called exploding a bomb, which is why I think we are not driving Hydrogen powered cars. May not be a good idea to try and do a DIY kit if anyone is thinking of it. :)

Richard
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An ICE is a series of "bombs" detonating to make power, if that bomb is power by petrol or Hydrogen makes no difference its still an explosion, Hydrogen powered cars are more than viable its just finding a way of extracting the Hydrogen that is the stumbling block. As for HHO systems, physics tells us you can't create energy only convert it from one form to another, this to me is where the claims for the system falls down.
 
Tbear said:
Complete layman here but can I just point out a bit of schoolboy science. Hydrogen burns in air. Mix Hydrogen with air and burning it is called exploding a bomb, which is why I think we are not driving Hydrogen powered cars. May not be a good idea to try and do a DIY kit if anyone is thinking of it. :)

Richard
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To be more accurate, Hydrogen spontaneously combusts in Air above a relatively low temperature. I found this a bit unnerving at first when working on Hydrogen lines on the Sasol refineries in South Africa. :scared:
 
K9d said:
An ICE is a series of "bombs" detonating to make power, if that bomb is power by petrol or Hydrogen makes no difference its still an explosion, Hydrogen powered cars are more than viable its just finding a way of extracting the Hydrogen that is the stumbling block. As for HHO systems, physics tells us you can't create energy only convert it from one form to another, this to me is where the claims for the system falls down.
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I get the ICE idea. Hydrogen production is no problem but the cost of doing so, I have no idea. Not sure of calorific values of Hydrogen verses Petrol. Their is also the plus point that the byproduct of burning H is H2O but my problem is storing Large amounts of hydrogen under pressure. I believe its a bit more dangerous than butane but I,m up for being educated.

Richard
 
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