Hab12v

[mistericeman]

I would expect a 1 year old Chausson to have a B2B as standard. The problem the switch/relay is dealing with is more likely to be the interaction between solar and B2B.

Good luck with that one ....

From what I've seen you are lucky IF it comes with bulbs rather than gas mantles .

 

[Okta]

Good luck with that one ....

From what I've seen you are lucky IF it comes with bulbs rather than gas mantles .

The European constructors have been fitting B2Bs for a while now.

 

[merl]

Good luck with that one ....

From what I've seen you are lucky IF it comes with bulbs rather than gas mantles .

Agreed, they'll save every penny they can. if it HAD a B2B then the dumb switch wouldn't be required.

 

[Okta]

Agreed, they'll save every penny they can. if it HAD a B2B then the dumb switch wouldn't be required.

It would if it is there to separate the solar from the B2B. A B2B needs to read the voltage of the leisure battery. If the Solar is raising the voltage at the battery to 14V+ the B2B will interpret this as a full battery and shut down and take the load off the engine battery. The smart alternator will raise the engine battery to the proper level and then also drop its voltage.

The solar is going to be connected to the leisure battery not the engine battery. With solar and B2B both connected to the leisure battery at the same time they are both going to get confused voltage readings from the other device. The solar therefore needs to be turned off when the engine is running. Both devices need to read the battery voltage not the voltage of another device.

 

[merl]

It would if it is there to separate the solar from the B2B. A B2B needs to read the voltage of the leisure battery. If the Solar is raising the voltage at the battery to 14V+ the B2B will interpret this as a full battery and shut down and take the load off the engine battery. The smart alternator will raise the engine battery to the proper level and then also drop its voltage.

The solar is going to be connected to the leisure battery not the engine battery. With solar and B2B both connected to the leisure battery at the same time they are both going to get confused voltage readings from the other device. The solar therefore needs to be turned off when the engine is running. Both devices need to read the battery voltage not the voltage of another device.

I've posted on this scenario previously where people think that if there's more than 1 charging source connected to a leisure battery that there's a risk of interaction and confusion and even 'back charge or flow' etc and that's simply incorrect.
The fact is that the 2 charging sources (in this scenario its a B2B and a solar charge controller) are connected to the same leisure battery. Because the leisure battery has a massively low internal resistance compared to the other 2 devices it's the battery voltage that takes preference and swamps out the voltage levels for the other 2, basically both devices 'see' the same voltage at their outputs and that voltage is the battery voltage, both devices will be trying to pump current into the battery until they think the battery is fully charged and their voltage set points are reached, one will cease charging slightly before the other depending on what setpoints are chosen for charge cut off but ultimately the battery will be fully charged at that point. Having 2 charging devices connected to the same battery is perfectly safe and acceptable, there's no need to isolate the solar from the battery while it's being charged by a B2B or a mains charger or alternator for that matter.

 

[exwindsurfer]

I've posted on this scenario previously where people think that if there's more than 1 charging source connected to a leisure battery that there's a risk of interaction and confusion and even 'back charge or flow' etc and that's simply incorrect.
The fact is that the 2 charging sources (in this scenario its a B2B and a solar charge controller) are connected to the same leisure battery. Because the leisure battery has a massively low internal resistance compared to the other 2 devices it's the battery voltage that takes preference and swamps out the voltage levels for the other 2, basically both devices 'see' the same voltage at their outputs and that voltage is the battery voltage, both devices will be trying to pump current into the battery until they think the battery is fully charged and their voltage set points are reached, one will cease charging slightly before the other depending on what setpoints are chosen for charge cut off but ultimately the battery will be fully charged at that point. Having 2 charging devices connected to the same battery is perfectly safe and acceptable, there's no need to isolate the solar from the battery while it's being charged by a B2B or a mains charger or alternator for that matter.

Well said

 

[exwindsurfer]

Never switch it off .

 

[Deleted member 95622]

Can someone tell me why some words are being automatically turned into hyperlinks? I have nothing whatsoever to do with the company mentioned in the links in my post and I did not put those links in.

Please explain?

-G

 

[merl]

Can someone tell me why some words are being automatically turned into hyperlinks? I have nothing whatsoever to do with the company mentioned in the links in my post and I did not put those links in.

Please explain?

-G

Maybe we get free stuff from the companies concerned?
Ferrari, Lamborghini, Cadbury, Glenfiddich, Tui, Sony.
I'll let you know.

 

[gasgas]

Thank you sincerely for the detailed replies, it might save me calling the dealer's electrician, whose workmanship I find slightly odd.
The reason for my posting is this:
a) The dealer I bought the mh from (not the original dealer) said that they had just fitted a new engine battery. I wonder why?
b) Reading through the volumes of bumph that came with it, I found this printed text written by the original dealer to the first owner:

"Ref Collection Charging Disclaimer.
Dear M...
As discussed we cannot warrant the charging system from the solar panels if the isolation switch is not turned off when driving. As explained this is due to the new Ford engine being fitted with a smart alternator and can be damaged if left on. The position of the isolation switch has been shown on handover and you are aware of how to operate this". Signed by the first owner and the dealer.

I am surprised that Chausson would make a motorhome with the haha smart haha alternator, a solar panel and leisure battery, with things that run off the leisure battery - diesel heater, 12v only fridge - and install a switch that has to be turned off when driving. I half suspect that the original dealer fitted the switch and I wonder if in the past they have experienced trouble perhaps when smart alternators first came out of the woodwork.

Anyway what the switch did was to isolate the solar panels from the solar regulator. So I have replaced the switch with a 'normally closed' relay which connects the panels to the LB. When the ignition is on the relay changes to open the contacts between the panels and battery.

I am pretty sure that the original dealer fitted a second 120W panel, and maybe the second 110 AH LB, since there is no mention of the magic switch in the Chausson owner's handbook.

There might be some logic to this: if the engine is running it will be charging both batteries (I presume!) and if the solar panels are being shone on they will be producing another voltage. Maybe (I would like to think) that the solar regulator would see all the batteries at 13.7 or 14v and therefore not put any charge into the battery wiring.

BUT - why the letter from the original dealer saying switch the switch, or else? And if the previous owner forgot to switch the switch did it damage the engine battery so the dealer I bought it from have to fit a new one?
Or maybe the previous owner didn't turn off the stupid startstop system every time he drove, thus needing a new battery. My daughter doesn't switch hers off in spite of me telling her to, and she churns through batteries and alternators as if they are fag ends to be disposed of.

Anyway I have fitted the relay so I won't lose sleep wondering if I have turned the hidden switch off . . I'll phone the original dealer tomorrow and ask for an explanation.

 

[gasgas]

Don't join the chausson owners club on facebook .... loads of bad stuff about ford/chausson ,,
I'm on there but I have a old fiat model, not a lot gone wrong with it.
Switch for step but buzzer goes off if you start engine... as said on post before 12 volt is left on continuously...
Electric bed works better with engine running, but bed manufacturers have said the bed needs wiring direct to battery not through relays,switches and fuses like chausson have done it.

I don't do facebook so I'm safe there. I have a prejudice against people who use it, possibly unfair but I wouldn't take their criticisms of anything unless I see it for myself. There are a lot of people who can't get out of bed in the morning before they have issued a law suit claiming for something.
My Chausson step buzzer - I must try that tomorrow. I've only had the van for a week. Auto-retract is the next electrical job. As for the bed electrics I would expect a bed motor to take ten or more amps and as such I would wire it through a relay. I think just using a rocker switch would make the contacts spark.
I need to investigate the bed wiring, on your suggestion. I had one in a Rapido thrown together on a friday evening by a vino swilling, galoise smoking moron who couldn't be bothered to push a plug and socket together properly. Then Brownhills failed on three occasions to find the fault and fix it. It was left to me to get the installation manual from the bed manufacturer in Italy and trace the fault myself. Then the bed collapsed in one corner and that was the end of that particular motorhome and my impression of Rapido quality control is that it doesn't exist.
On the subject of poor quality, I had a A/S Nuevo where they have discovered how to make drain water flow uphill, use pipes without sealant so they drip, and worse than that 'none of them' (so far as I am aware) are constructed with the Truma boiler installed according to the maker's instructions. So any habitation check should fail. (Speaking as a retired CORGI and Gas Safe Registered Engineer). Also the chassis-to-rear-lights wiring is jointed with choc block connectors immediately behind the rear wheels so they won't work for very long.
There again Pilote made a 630 panel van that we owned, had a wash basin that would overflow if you put a litre of water in it. A Sparrow would drown. So I investigated and found that they could have installed a proper decent sized polished stainless steel washroom sink cheaper than the fibreglass ant's bath that they fitted. So I fitted a proper polished stainless steel wash basin costing £3 from Asda. In reality it was marketed as a mixing bowl so I had the onerous task of drilling a hole in it for a plug drain. Big deal.
Then there was the other Rapido where the kitchen sink drain was e v e r s o s l o w to drain so I investigated. It was 20mm diameter and went round seven 90 degree bends before it got to the waste tank. Any plumber will tell you that a 90 degree bend in water or gas pipe has the same flow resistance as one metre of straight pipe. They also collect debris such as peas and other things that lazy washer-uppers chuck down there. I removed the stupid pipe they installed and fitted a 32mm drain pipe with 4 bends and the water went away at a hundred miles an hour (that might be a slight Russian / Boris / Trump version of the truth) with a loud sluuuurrrrpp. It would have been far cheaper and less labour for Rapido to do what I did.
As for the Chausson and Ford: The Ford, I am impressed to say comes with the box sections of the chassis sprayed with waxoyl so I can't improve on that. It drives just fine and dandy and the automatic is wonderful. It's a 170HP motor which is very powerful, luckily with cruise control you don't have to use the accelerator because if you do it will zoom off out of control. Here's a surprise I found out today: The rear leaf springs are plastic. Yes, you read correctly, plastic. Very thick plastic, and it is a transluscent green colour for some reason. At least they won't rust. The engine looks a lot more accessible than the current Fiats, for stuff like changing the cam belt - must find out if it has a belt or chain . . . . but as I said before the rainwater is deliberately designed to pour all over the electrical connectors next to the engine ECU. Presumably so they can sell more ECUs. All sorts of funny things happen when you undo the central locking. All the yellow lights along the side come on, all the side lights, and at night, the headlights.
The Chausson bits I have found wanting: Lots of creaks and rattles when driving. The floor outside is fibreglass which is fantastic - A/S are chipboard - but on my Chausson I did find three clamps which hold the body to the chassis could have done with a bit more tightening. I tightened them. No bother. I have just discovered that the interior light switches just inside the hab door don't operate unless the main panel 12v is switched on. And that is inside, turn around, reach up to the side of the door. That will be changed as soon as I remember to add it to my list. There is a permanent 12v next to the switches feeding two cigarette lighter sockets which are permanently live (I think) so I will divert some volts from them.
The washroom is a bit on the small side, but that is part of the design which has a simply huge tall garage at the back, I reckon I could drive a small motorbike straight in. Overall I am getting to like it more and more, and so long as the bed continues to operate I'll be happy with it.

Then there was the LHD Burstner that I bought and converted to RHD - but you are asleep by now so I won't bother saying all the work involved . . .

 

[trevskoda]

Many factory built vans i have looked at are a mess with electrics and in my eyes very poor build quality, as for anything built by ford, well after 40 odd years working on cars i wont coment.

 

[Okta]

I've posted on this scenario previously where people think that if there's more than 1 charging source connected to a leisure battery that there's a risk of interaction and confusion and even 'back charge or flow' etc and that's simply incorrect.
The fact is that the 2 charging sources (in this scenario its a B2B and a solar charge controller) are connected to the same leisure battery. Because the leisure battery has a massively low internal resistance compared to the other 2 devices it's the battery voltage that takes preference and swamps out the voltage levels for the other 2, basically both devices 'see' the same voltage at their outputs and that voltage is the battery voltage, both devices will be trying to pump current into the battery until they think the battery is fully charged and their voltage set points are reached, one will cease charging slightly before the other depending on what setpoints are chosen for charge cut off but ultimately the battery will be fully charged at that point. Having 2 charging devices connected to the same battery is perfectly safe and acceptable, there's no need to isolate the solar from the battery while it's being charged by a B2B or a mains charger or alternator for that matter.

That makes sense, I withdraw my contrary argument. Presumably this voltage levelling works best if the devices are individually wired directly to the battery with good wiring i.e. not too much shared voltage drop.

 

[merl]

That makes sense, I withdraw my contrary argument. Presumably this voltage levelling works best if the devices are individually wired directly to the battery with good wiring i.e. not too much shared voltage drop.

Ideally yes but in the real world there's always going to be some wiring resistance and hence voltage difference between the supply and the load and because the voltage sensing circuitry is built into the supply then the thinner the cable the more inaccurate the voltage/charging tracking will be, fortunately this inaccuracy results in a form of 'softening' of the charge profile and the constant current phase ends early which, unless you're after the fastest charging possible isn't such a bad thing.
Ultimately as long as everything is wired up in appropriately sized cable the voltages were talking about will be in the millivolt range and wont be critical.
I can see how the additional leisure battery may possibly interfere with the 'smart' alternator and prevent it from saving a teaspoon of diesel every tank full but I really cant see any scenario where it could possibly cause the alt to fail, I strongly suspect that the switch installed on the OPs system was more of an ass covering exercise so that if the alternator DID fail (for other reasons) then they couldn't blame the solar install.
If there IS a B2B fitted then the solar is effectively decoupled from the alternator anyway so definitely no issue in that case.

 

[wildebus]

It is not really part of the discussion, but something that may be of interest to some people here .... the better Smart Chargers have, as part of their charging mechanism, a routine where the charge output is actually cut so the charger can sample the actual battery voltage (within the limitations of the cable losses, etc between the charger and the battery).
This happens on actually a very frequent basis and the off duration is very short, so much so that even when you know it happens it is very hard to capture it happening. This is not a function/feature that tends to be noted in the manuals or operating specs, but it is something that allows the charger to work in the optimal way. I know the Victron MPPT Controllers do this and I would expect their AC-DC and DC-DC chargers so it also. The Ablemail AMC B2B and AMS B2B/MPPT combo charger also do this and the Aussie made Redarc B2B/MPPT Chargers do it also.
Thinking about it, it probably does mean that when there are multiple 'discrete' charging sources active at the same time, the voltages at the 'off' times are unlikely to be the true battery voltage, so a charger could assume a more charged battery than is really correct? The benefit of multiple charging sources at the same time would outweigh that I would imagine though.

(And what all those products have in common is they from very engineering-orientated organisations where product design comes first, which is why I personally tend to favour them, but that is a different topic )

 

[Okta]

It is not really part of the discussion, but something that may be of interest to some people here .... the better Smart Chargers have, as part of their charging mechanism, a routine where the charge output is actually cut so the charger can sample the actual battery voltage (within the limitations of the cable losses, etc between the charger and the battery).
This happens on actually a very frequent basis and the off duration is very short, so much so that even when you know it happens it is very hard to capture it happening. This is not a function/feature that tends to be noted in the manuals or operating specs, but it is something that allows the charger to work in the optimal way. I know the Victron MPPT Controllers do this and I would expect their AC-DC and DC-DC chargers so it also. The Ablemail AMC B2B and AMS B2B/MPPT combo charger also do this and the Aussie made Redarc B2B/MPPT Chargers do it also.
Thinking about it, it probably does mean that when there are multiple 'discrete' charging sources active at the same time, the voltages at the 'off' times are unlikely to be the true battery voltage, so a charger could assume a more charged battery than is really correct? The benefit of multiple charging sources at the same time would outweigh that I would imagine though.

(And what all those products have in common is they from very engineering-orientated organisations where product design comes first, which is why I personally tend to favour them, but that is a different topic )

My Efoy fuel cell does that, it cuts out without fully shutting down to check the voltage. It happens long enough for me to sometimes notice so it is as well they mention it in the manual. I never have it running with other charging sources but it is one of the things that made me think there might be a problem from doing so.

 

[Nabsim]

if its sunny and I am driving I always have 3 charing sources running together with no ill effects (2 x MPPT and 1 x B2B). Been like that for a good few years now as well.

If I ever go on mains I run 2 x 30A Victron chargers as well as my 2 x MPPT at the same time. I will however switch off the mains chargers once battery reach 100%. I am on lifepo4 that will take the charge I can send though

 

[Drover]

I don't do facebook so I'm safe there. I have a prejudice against people who use it, possibly unfair but I wouldn't take their criticisms of anything

A little harsh me thinks, but if you get injector problems this is who to contact
I dont hold grudges
Hope you dont get the fault but it's a ongoing thing with the panther engine.

 

[merl]

It is not really part of the discussion, but something that may be of interest to some people here .... the better Smart Chargers have, as part of their charging mechanism, a routine where the charge output is actually cut so the charger can sample the actual battery voltage (within the limitations of the cable losses, etc between the charger and the battery).
This happens on actually a very frequent basis and the off duration is very short, so much so that even when you know it happens it is very hard to capture it happening. This is not a function/feature that tends to be noted in the manuals or operating specs, but it is something that allows the charger to work in the optimal way. I know the Victron MPPT Controllers do this and I would expect their AC-DC and DC-DC chargers so it also. The Ablemail AMC B2B and AMS B2B/MPPT combo charger also do this and the Aussie made Redarc B2B/MPPT Chargers do it also.
Thinking about it, it probably does mean that when there are multiple 'discrete' charging sources active at the same time, the voltages at the 'off' times are unlikely to be the true battery voltage, so a charger could assume a more charged battery than is really correct? The benefit of multiple charging sources at the same time would outweigh that I would imagine though.

(And what all those products have in common is they from very engineering-orientated organisations where product design comes first, which is why I personally tend to favour them, but that is a different topic )

David, I seem to think you've mentioned these devices previously? I've never come across them myself but they are interesting for sure and quite cleaver when you think about it.
I guess the charge current is removed for just a fraction of a second and the voltage reading is then instantly taken before the battery voltage has time to 'relax' and fall back, the current taken during the measurement will be virtually zero so cables will basically have no effect, a simple idea but cleaver stuff.
I guess therefore that they will get mislead if the battery is also being charged by a additional charger(s) and they'll cut off prematurely during the constant voltage phase leaving most of the work at that point to the other charger, I'd expect the heavy lifting of the constant current stage to be largely unaltered though with both devices supplying as much current as they can with the smarter charger reducing it's current as the CC stage comes to an end.

 

[trevskoda]

My numax smart charger drops the voltage back from 14.4 to 13.7v and then pulse charges before going up to full power again if required.