France and Travel Insurance.

[mark61]

well you know more than all those who reported on the details, including the bbc

Perhaps they didn't read your post properly.
The Boris deal set out a transition period until 31 Dec 2020.
The fact it wasn't passed is another thing.

 

[John H]

well you know more than all those who reported on the details, including the bbc

Could you provide a link to any BBC (or other) quote which says that EHIC is provided by the EU? Otherwise I think you are mistaken.

EHIC is not an EU scheme and therefore cannot be included in any deal. The terms of any deal, however, will dictate whether or not we can continue to use it because, in order to qualify for EHIC, a state must accept freedom of movement. Thus, if we do a deal that accepts freedom of movement we can retain EHIC; if we don't then we can't. In the event of the latter, we would have to do individual deals with individual countries. Spain has suggested that it would be willing to do a deal in those circumstances but has suggested it be linked to freedom of movement as far as the Gibraltar frontier is concerned. Thus there is no guarantee that this will go through.
In the meantime, if a deal is agreed and we move into the transition period, then we will continue to be able to use EHIC because the transition period involves continuing to allow freedom of movement during that period.

 

[mark61]

Could you provide a link to any BBC (or other) quote which says that EHIC is provided by the EU? Otherwise I think you are mistaken.

I must have missed the post where anyone said it was.

 

[John H]

I must have missed the post where anyone said it was.

Post number 30 claimed that EHIC was part of the Boris deal. Since EHIC is not an EU scheme, it could not have been.

 

[mark61]

Post number 30 claimed that EHIC was part of the Boris deal. Since EHIC is not an EU scheme, it could not have been.

The Boris deal includes a transition period until 31 Dec 2020. EHIC would have continued until then.

 

[colinm]

Could you provide a link to any BBC (or other) quote which says that EHIC is provided by the EU? Otherwise I think you are mistaken.

EHIC is not an EU scheme and therefore cannot be included in any deal. The terms of any deal, however, will dictate whether or not we can continue to use it because, in order to qualify for EHIC, a state must accept freedom of movement. Thus, if we do a deal that accepts freedom of movement we can retain EHIC; if we don't then we can't. In the event of the latter, we would have to do individual deals with individual countries. Spain has suggested that it would be willing to do a deal in those circumstances but has suggested it be linked to freedom of movement as far as the Gibraltar frontier is concerned. Thus there is no guarantee that this will go through.
In the meantime, if a deal is agreed and we move into the transition period, then we will continue to be able to use EHIC because the transition period involves continuing to allow freedom of movement during that period.

I have limited internet at moment so am not going to be searching out the page, but here's a very simple way to find it, go to google and type in 'does the Boris deal include EHIC'

 

[John H]

The Boris deal includes a transition period until 31 Dec 2020. EHIC would have continued until then.

The transition period was actually negotiated by May. The important point here is that post 30 implied that Boris was in favour of freedom of movement because that is the only way to keep us in EHIC. The reality, of course, is that he is in favour of the exact opposite. The transition deal he was stuck with whether he wanted it or not. Of course, if he gets a big enough majority in December, he could abandon the transition period altogether and just come out on January 30th with no deal.

 

[John H]

I have limited internet at moment so am not going to be searching out the page, but here's a very simple way to find it, go to google and type in 'does the Boris deal include EHIC'

Although I knew the answer, I did as you said and, rather pleasingly, the answers that came up were almost word for word what I posted to Mark above. Thank you.

EHIC cannot be part of the negotiations (and therefore cannot be part of any deal) but if there is a transition period then nothing changes until the end of that transition period.

Far from Boris's deal ensuring the continuation of EHIC, Boris is intent on a course of action that will automatically exclude us from EHIC.

 

[Markd]

No it didn't - for the simple reason that EHIC is not administered by the EU and therefore cannot figure in any deal. It is, however, a condition of being a member of EHIC that you have to agree to freedom of movement - and Boris doesn't want that!

Whilst EHIC may or may not be administered by EU but access to it is a function of being in EU.
So if we leave EU we leave EHIC - my source is a BMA paper
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bma.org.uk/-/media/files/pdfs/collective%20voice/influence/europe/bma-******-briefing-reciprocal-healthcare.pdf?la=en&ved=2ahUKEwjC8vSIjfHlAhXNi1wKHc8zB_8QFjAMegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1LVyk7AZHhcsJdc5xpXaoR
I expect we'll still have it during transition but who knows? I've not studied the 700 pages of the withdrawal agreement unlike John H?
A bit more detail here

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/******-travelling-eu-access-healthcare

 

[John H]

Whilst EHIC may or may not be administered by EU but access to it is a function of being in EU.
So if we leave EU we leave EHIC - my source is a BMA paper https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bma.org.uk/-/media/files/pdfs/collective%20voice/influence/europe/bma-******-briefing-reciprocal-healthcare.pdf?la=en&ved=2ahUKEwjC8vSIjfHlAhXNi1wKHc8zB_8QFjAMegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1LVyk7AZHhcsJdc5xpXaoR
I expect we'll still have it during transition but who knows? I've not studied the 700 pages of the withdrawal agreement unlike John H?

I'm sorry to repeat myself but that is not so. Membership of EHIC is NOT a function of being in the EU. Norway and Switzerland are in the EHIC scheme but they are not in the EU (the link you provide makes this clear)..

This is not complicated and you don't have to read 700 pages of anything to understand it. To remain in EHIC you have to accept free movement. The transition period will keep us in the Single Market and thus accepting free movement until December 2020 (longer if the transition period is extended; shorter if the transition period is abandoned).

The reason all this is significant is because anyone reading post 30 might assume that if they vote for Boris then EHIC is safe. The exact opposite is the case because he wants to end free movement.

 

[vwalan]

yes stop free movement . thats what uk voted for.
folk will still be able to have holidays in eu or uk . but stop free movement is great.
if you get ill abroad never mind , you can get buried in almost any country.
the worse is them old age pensioners getting heating allowance then being in spain etc during winter .
stop that as well.

 

[Markd]

Agreed - leave EU and we leave EHIC.
We get EHIC because we are in EU - see section 1 of BMA paper.
Norway and Switzerland get EHIC because they've done a deal with EU.
Anyway we needn't worry 'cos Boris is such a good negotiator that he'll get all the benefits of being in EU whilst being out of it in 6 months rather the 21 months envisaged by Mrs May along with all those worldwide free trade deals with no strings

 

[Markd]

I've now read further into the BMA briefing and it would seem that EHIC is only good for periods of less than 3 months in EU (unless students - probably not many on herr)
For longer periods other arrangements are needed - because there will be many on here already familiar with and using them I'll let them explain.

 

[John H]

Agreed - leave EU and we leave EHIC.
We get EHIC because we are in EU - see section 1 of BMA paper.
Norway and Switzerland get EHIC because they've done a deal with EU.
Anyway we needn't worry 'cos Boris is such a good negotiator that he'll get all the benefits of being in EU whilst being out of it in 6 months rather the 21 months envisaged by Mrs May along with all those worldwide free trade deals with no strings

No again, I'm afraid. Leaving the EU does not automatically mean we leave EHIC. The key is free movement. Norway and Switzerland have signed up to Schengen and accept free movement. If we were to do the same we could stay in EHIC. However, since Boris doesn't want to do that, a vote for Boris is a vote to leave EHIC.

The document you refer to makes it perfectly clear that EHIC applies to some non-EU countries - getting it does not depend on being a member.

 

[John H]

I'd be interested to know how you came to the conclusion about a three month limit, Mark. My wife and I both have pre-existing conditions and both get six months worth of medication on EHIC when we arrive here in Spain. Also, previously my wife had to have a series of treatment (very expensive treatment if we had to pay for it, which we didn't) which lasted more than three months and started after we had been here for two months already. EHIC last for as long as you are in the country. The freedom of movement directive over-rules anything else you might come across - as long as you sign up to freedom of movement, that is...……..

 

[Markd]

I just read the BMA briefing document from end to end only took a few minutes!
I'm afraid that I made the assumption that they knew what they were talking about.
Until today I had no idea or worry that there might be a time limit.
I'm pleased and heartened that you both received extended treatment on the basis of EHIC.
From what I've read the current withdrawal agreement will cover treatment for those abroad on B day in January.
Of course I believe Boris when he says he can deliver everything he promises despite all the evidence to the contrary

I stick to the point that our EHIC membership is a result of being an EU member.
Quite what Boris plans for future reciprocal deals is anyone's guess but whatever it is will only be a moment's effort for him and his crack team to negotiate.

 

[John H]

I just read the BMA briefing document from end to end only took a few minutes!
I'm afraid that I made the assumption that they knew what they were talking about.
Until today I had no idea or worry that there might be a time limit.
I'm pleased and heartened that you both received extended treatment on the basis of EHIC.
From what I've read the current withdrawal agreement will cover treatment for those abroad on B day in January.
Of course I believe Boris when he says he can deliver everything he promises despite all the evidence to the contrary

I stick to the point that our EHIC membership is a result of being an EU member.
Quite what Boris plans for future reciprocal deals is anyone's guess but whatever it is will only be a moment's effort for him and his crack team to negotiate.

The 3 month thing for EU residents is an interesting one. For many years, many of us - including me - were under the misapprehension that an EU resident could only legally spend 3 months in another EU country. This "rule" was never enforced and it was assumed by us that this was because it would be difficult to prove because of the lack of border controls within Schengen. It turns out, however, that any such rule is over-ridden by the freedom of movement directive, which states that as long as you can prove that you have sufficient funds to cover your stay you can stay as long as you want and enjoy all the reciprocal arrangements - including EHIC. In addition to my own experience, I could itemise many cases of friends who have been here in Spain for longer than 3 months and got free treatment for everything ranging from strokes to broken limbs.

The current withdrawal agreement does not ensure cover after B day. If there is no transition period, we are out - of the EU and of EHIC. It is the transition period (if there is one) that ensures we continue to get cover, not the withdrawal agreement, for the simple reason that EHIC cannot, as I said earlier, be negotiated by two sets of people, neither of whom control it!

If EHIC membership is a result of EU membership then how do you explain the fact that Norway and Switzerland are members of EHIC? The BMA document you keep referring to makes the situation perfectly clear but you choose to say something different.

I share your cynicism with regard to Boris.

 

[Markd]

My understanding was that Boris' agreement included "full membership" benefits until the end of Mrs M's transition.
As we know negotiation of our future relationship is the hard bit but as Boris got his completely wonderful "new" deal in a matter of weeks "Getting ****** Done" by the end of next year will be a cinch for him and his masterminds - it's a pity Anne Widdecombe turned down her peerage to join the team

So EHIC is EEA members plus Switzerland that's EU28 (including UK) 4 EFTA (Nordic) and Switzerland.
So as we are not EFTA our membership is on basis of being in EU.
Apparently EU have said they'll allow EHIC in EU during transition afterwards has yet to be negotiated - but as ever this is mere trifle that will only take minutes to sort out. I expect that it won't be necessary to even think about it until Xmas next year.

 

[colinm]

I'm sorry to repeat myself but that is not so. Membership of EHIC is NOT a function of being in the EU. Norway and Switzerland are in the EHIC scheme but they are not in the EU (the link you provide makes this clear)..

This is not complicated and you don't have to read 700 pages of anything to understand it. To remain in EHIC you have to accept free movement. The transition period will keep us in the Single Market and thus accepting free movement until December 2020 (longer if the transition period is extended; shorter if the transition period is abandoned).

The reason all this is significant is because anyone reading post 30 might assume that if they vote for Boris then EHIC is safe. The exact opposite is the case because he wants to end free movement.

In trying to justify your erroneous post you have lost the plot I quite clearly state in post 30 that a further deal would be needed.

 

[John H]

My understanding was that Boris' agreement included "full membership" benefits until the end of Mrs M's transition.
As we know negotiation of our future relationship is the hard bit but as Boris got his completely wonderful "new" deal in a matter of weeks "Getting ****** Done" by the end of next year will be a cinch for him and his masterminds - it's a pity Anne Widdecombe turned down her peerage to join the team

So EHIC is EEA members plus Switzerland that's EU28 (including UK) 4 EFTA (Nordic) and Switzerland.
So as we are not EFTA our membership is on basis of being in EU.
Apparently EU have said they'll allow EHIC in EU during transition afterwards has yet to be negotiated - but as ever this is mere trifle that will only take minutes to sort out. I expect that it won't be necessary to even think about it until Xmas next year.

Our current membership is as a result of our membership of the EU, yes - but it does not depend on being a member. I repeat for the umpteenth time, it all comes down to agreeing (or not) to freedom of movement. EHIC membership CANNOT be negotiated by two groups of people who do not control it. What they can negotiate is membership of the single market/Schengen. If that results in us staying in then we qualify for EHIC; if it doesn't then we cannot be a member of EHIC. Since Boris is not interested in staying in Schengen then he cannot negotiate the continuation of EHIC.

And the EU have not "said that they will allow EHIC during transition". What they have said is that during transition we will stay in the single market. Thus there is no reason for us not to stay in EHIC. Those are two VERY different things.