English Aires

[John H]

John H, thats precisely why I say you "think" you can indentify a group of society etc.

What on earth do you mean by a "group of society"? If you mean, as Tbear said, a specific group of people who you can identify individually then OK but if you mean that if a resident of Glasgow commits a crime then all Glaswegians should be banned from the area then you couldn't be more wrong. I suspect you mean the latter.

 

[Tbear]

What on earth do you mean by a "group of society"? If you mean, as Tbear said, a specific group of people who you can identify individually then OK but if you mean that if a resident of Glasgow commits a crime then all Glaswegians should be banned from the area then you couldn't be more wrong. I suspect you mean the latter.

John

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between. If you can identify individuals within a group as trouble makers then it is reasonable to think that others within that group will tolerate if not support the ring leaders. It all depends on the ratio, If one in a million are trouble makers then they are a very nice bunch. If one in three are known trouble makers, then that's a different matter.

Richard

 

[Byronic]

What I'm saying is that if you are wanting to identify a group in society that you think has a greater propensity to eg throw rubbish around than society in general, then how can you prove this to a hopefully, unbiased unprejudiced Authority what proof do you have of your assumptions, ie what qualifies you to point the finger of accusation at a certan group. You "might" be correct in your assumptions but first habeas corpus. If,and it's a very big if, you do have this irrefutable proof, then arises the question of do you punish the innocent in the group as well as the transgressors? A very big question that.

IMHO if members of a group throw rubbish around then crush the vehicles but only of the culpable individuals, just as would apply to the rest of society. Which is what I believe prevails in this country, thankfully.

The problem I think is that the penalties just aren't applied often enough and they are not tough enough, the metaphorical van crushing should be a reality. In the end though only education is the real solution.

 

[Tbear]

Can we go back to how I get the nice man in transport to give me an Aire

 

[John H]

John

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between. If you can identify individuals within a group as trouble makers then it is reasonable to think that others within that group will tolerate if not support the ring leaders. It all depends on the ratio, If one in a million are trouble makers then they are a very nice bunch. If one in three are known trouble makers, then that's a different matter.

Richard

If one in three members of any group are trouble makers then two in three aren't and it is appalling that you think they should be punished for the sins of the other one. As for it being "reasonable to think that others will tolerate...." thank goodness the legal system in this country requires evidence not assumptions.

 

[John H]

a group in society that you think has a greater propensity to eg throw rubbish around than society in general

I'd stop digging that hole if I were you. If green-eyed people have a "propensity to throw rubbish around" (whatever that means) then should you be punished because you happen to have green eyes???????????

 

[John H]

Can we go back to how I get the nice man in transport to give me an Aire

certainly - if people stop using this forum to expound prejudiced nonsense.

 

[Byronic]

I'd stop digging that hole if I were you. If green-eyed people have a "propensity to throw rubbish around" (whatever that means) then should you be punished because you happen to have green eyes???????????

You just have't got it. I'm "suggesting" that if someone where to persue that line of approach they would have great difficulty in getting an Aire sanctioned. If you read the post properly you'll see that my own view for what it's worth does not agree with discriminating against groups,comprendi?

 

[Tbear]

If one in three members of any group are trouble makers then two in three aren't and it is appalling that you think they should be punished for the sins of the other one.

John

You seem determined to miss the point here. Nobody has punished anybody but if you have a group of people where 1in3 people are known trouble makers and it is a situation where there is often trouble you have to wonder about the motives of the other two. I am not suggesting we hang them without trial. When the vandalism starts whats the chances the other two are going to be complicit. How many do you think will walk away? How many of them will encourage the wrong doers or join in? Still nobody has been punished but it would seem common sense to keep an eye on such groups and when and if it kicks off to subject the guilty parties to the rule of law.

Should you want further information may I suggest you talk to the medics who worked the streets of Northern Ireland during the troubles.

Can we please get back to title of this thread.

Richard

 

[John H]

You just have't got it. I'm "suggesting" that if someone where to persue that line of approach they would have great difficulty in getting an Aire sanctioned. If you read the post properly you'll see that my own view for what it's worth does not agree with discriminating against groups,comprendi?

If that is so then you ought to think very carefully about how you express yourself. Talking about groups that have "a greater propensity" than others to do wrong and using phrases such as "sections of society" when trying to identify who to blame is inflammatory at best. It doesn't sound like the kind of language used by people who are opposed to discrimination. But I will take you at your word.

 

[John H]

John

You seem determined to miss the point here. Nobody has punished anybody but if you have a group of people where 1in3 people are known trouble makers and it is a situation where there is often trouble you have to wonder about the motives of the other two. I am not suggesting we hang them without trial. When the vandalism starts whats the chances the other two are going to be complicit. How many do you think will walk away? How many of them will encourage the wrong doers or join in? Still nobody has been punished but it would seem common sense to keep an eye on such groups and when and if it kicks off to subject the guilty parties to the rule of law.

Should you want further information may I suggest you talk to the medics who worked the streets of Northern Ireland during the troubles.

Can we please get back to title of this thread.

Richard

"Wondering" about somebody's motives is a step backwards from making the assumption that if one member of a group is a trouble-maker then the other two are likely to be the same. What you say in this post I can accept; what you said in the previous one I can't.

 

[barnybg]

English aires ?

I dont want to come over as 'putting you down' but what happened to setting up as an association so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one ( Motorhome365 was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??
I realise that your doing this yourself in 'your town' (glad someone has got off thier backside) but couldn't it jeapordise Aires or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?
I dont know YOU,or your ...council meeting skills,but be sure,if not done right,will be detromental to 'others' trying to do the same.
I know i come in ,on this thread a little late,and it also looks like you were going to do it any way,but it could become a disastrous meeting etc,which will not only prevent a 'site' /aire in your town/area,it would be an Agenda not to listen or support further 'Motorhomers' achieving it,also a good reason for othercouncils,NOT TO !
I'm also picking up on the title,wether it yours or someone else's? English Aires,NOT stop over in your area/town which is a big difference.

 

[Tbear]

I dont want to come over as 'putting you down' but what happened to setting up as an association so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one ( Motorhome365 was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??
I realise that your doing this yourself in 'your town' (glad someone has got off their backside) but couldn't it jeapordise Aires or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?
I dont know YOU,or your ...council meeting skills,but be sure,if not done right,will be detromental to 'others' trying to do the same.
I know i come in ,on this thread a little late,and it also looks like you were going to do it any way,but it could become a disastrous meeting etc,which will not only prevent a 'site' /aire in your town/area,it would be an Agenda not to listen or support further 'Motorhomers' achieving it,also a good reason for othercouncils,NOT TO !
I'm also picking up on the title,whether it yours or someone else's? English Aires,NOT stop over in your area/town which is a big difference.

Yes Barnbg, you are correct if the council decide its a bad idea then its a bad idea. I have failed.I think the chances of it affecting other councils in a big way are remote. The reverse does not seem true, other towns setting Aires does not seem to have affected our council, nor does the fact that our twin town has two. In fact there is to the best of my knowledge no such thing as an English Aire, its French. The only reason I used the term is that I did not have a better one. Therefore there is no big difference between an aire and motorhome stopover. You might argue the level of service should warrant a different title but my life is too short to worry about such nit picking. The reason I am doing this is the alternative is to sit on my backside and listen to the whining about nothing getting done. I'm not good at that. What are you doing to help?

 

[barnybg]

Stopover not Aire ? English not British ?

Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that you are similar to me...and ran
I hope you have good meetings and get your goal.
have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365

I am only a member,like this site,i have no other connection,but feel that we should stand together,be it from me (2000 miles away) Uk is my country and i will be back !

 

[Tbear]

Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that you are similar to me...and ran
I hope you have good meetings and get your goal.
have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365

I am only a member,like this site,i have no other connection,but feel that we should stand together,be it from me (2000 miles away) Uk is my country and i will be back !

I don't do groups and committees. Tend to find they are dominated by one or two people who want more people to share the blame when it all goes wrong.
Don't really think I am rushing as the people I am dealing with are trained professionals with many years of experience. Also if you look at my original post it was a request for help with the possible details.
If I get this right then the council will be very happy. If I get it wrong then either nothing will happen or it will be my fault. But with a little bit of luck I.ll be able to sit back with a beer and think I gave it my best shot.
No I have never heard of Motorhome365 but I will google them.

 

[Kontiki]

Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site

 

[Deleted member 967]

Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site

If he has to charge, so be it. We cannot expect other people to provide these sites at their own expense.

barnybg

I don't want to come over as 'putting you down' but what happened to setting up as an association so that it be a whole group of motorhomers saying as one ( Motorhome365 was going to be that group ? After discussing it here on wildcamping ?nothing came of it ,so that 'Association' was set up ??

The Motorhome Fulltimers Association (Motorhome365) aims to give a stronger voice to fulltimers in their struggle with officialdom. Too often fulltimers are penalised because the “system” is not geared up for those who wish to travel full time in their motorhomes. Jim has stressed it is not just another motorhome forum.

This site specialises in Wild Camping in Motorhomes. Each has its own speciality but share members and interests.

barnybg
English aires ?

I realise that your doing this yourself in 'your town' (glad someone has got off thier backside) but couldn't it jeapordise Aires or how they are charged/managed/sited if other towns or 'councils' go by this ...venture ?

As things stand there is not much possibility that Aires can be set up by a large national body. Each local Authority needs to be approached and local knowledge is essential. This has been a long road and there have been successes by approaching local authorities individually. Good luck to Tbear. I have been there myself.

Because one persons attempt fails, it does not mean another will not succeed. We have to keep pressing. One drop of water doesn't wear a stone away, but repeated drops can over time. As we pool knowledge we may overcome the objections.

I hoped we might get some support when the "Your Freedom website" was going but only 109 motorhomers bothered to support the call for UK Aires.

The only hope for an easy way to get Aires is for national government to issue planning guidance to all local authorities to give presumed planning consent to allow them, as is the case with TV aerial or satellite dishes. CLs have presumed planning consent. At present local authorities insist that they have to go through the planning procedures to give themselves consent. They do not need Caravan Site Licences as this is provided for in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

 

[Tbear]

Sorry mate,I joined that 'other' site exactly for the reason ,to make a hopefully more powerfull voice,rather than one at a time having a nibble and possibly making a mess of things.
I agree it's slow,and especially picky on times trying to resolve or thrash out points,so that aLL is answered before going to Govt or councils,and i have been told 'little by little' and walk before running,but it seems,that you are similar to me...and ran
I hope you have good meetings and get your goal.
have you joined the action group for motorhomers ? Can i say it Motorhome365

I am only a member,like this site,i have no other connection,but feel that we should stand together,be it from me (2000 miles away) Uk is my country and i will be back !

Sorry Barneybg I have heard of motorhome365, just did not remember the name (must be getting old) however when trying to get something done I relate more to my peers. This site seemed to fit that description better.
Richard

 

[Tbear]

Motorhome365 run by the same guy who runs motorhome fun (I believe), wonder how many members he needs to get before he starts to charge for that site

Hi Kontiki,

I had a look at the website. Met the guy once at a show. Know what you mean

Richard

 

[Tbear]

If he has to charge, so be it. We cannot expect other people to provide these sites at their own expense.



The Motorhome Fulltimers Association (Motorhome365) aims to give a stronger voice to fulltimers in their struggle with officialdom. Too often fulltimers are penalised because the “system” is not geared up for those who wish to travel full time in their motorhomes. Jim has stressed it is not just another motorhome forum.

This site specialises in Wild Camping in Motorhomes. Each has its own speciality but share members and interests.



As things stand there is not much possibility that Aires can be set up by a large national body. Each local Authority needs to be approached and local knowledge is essential. This has been a long road and there have been successes by approaching local authorities individually. Good luck to Tbear. I have been there myself.

Because one person attempt fails, it does not mean another will not succeed. We have to keep pressing. One drop of water doesn't wear a stone away, but repeated drops can over time. As we pool knowledge we may overcome the objections.

I hoped we might get some support when the "Your Freedom website" was going but only 109 motorhomers bothered to support the call for UK Aires.

The only hope for an easy way to get Aires is for national government to issue planning guidance to all local authorities to give presumed planning consent to allow them, as is the case with TV aerial or satellite dishes. CLs have presumed planning consent. At present local authorities insist that they have to go through the planning procedures to give themselves consent. They do not need Caravan Site Licences as this is provided for in the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

John,

Positive! Makes loads of sense! Thank you

Richard