Consequences of outstaying 90 days ?

[Boris7]

I suppose owners of a property in Spain could always use the ferry into northern Spain thus cutting out France altogether.

Maybe I should have said Italy

 

[REC]

Someone did suggest that having Google tracking turned on would prove how long one has been in an EU country where a visa is in place and how long in rest of EU. I currently save receipts to prove this. The app sounds like a good option but I can't quite work it out!

 

[mariesnowgoose]

I must say it didn't take very long for this thread to degenerate once again into the usual Brexit blah , blah .............

Did you read the title of the thread?

If it wasn’t for Brexit this thread wouldn’t exist

 

[marchie]

I think the key point for those of you without an E.U. passport is that the Schengen system is not designed to accomodate your needs as a traveller across the E.U. this has a massive impact because we are all used to just jumping in the van and going, with no restrictions etc, people who have propertys in Spain as an example cannot get a Schengen visa, they need to get a Spanish visa, but if they drive down to Spain and drive back and the whole trip is over 90 days technically the French authorities could take the view that they have still been in the Schengen zone for in excess of the time limit, obviously common sense would be for the French to discount the days spent in Spain, but the French could easily claim that they could have moved around the E.U. and there have been cases where this has happened, those of you with a Spanish visa etc, would be well advised to keep receipts for spending (ideally a receipt each day) and if you do pop into France don't keep such and leave the phone / camera off.

In June a British truck driver returning from a trip to Turkey was checked by Dutch Police and arrested for exceeding the 90 day limit, he had calculated excluding the days in Turkey, but the Dutch police didn't agree, he paid the fine simply to get on with his trip, the RHA also has reports of similar checks within the Netherlands here

Your UK passport effectively acts as a short term Schengen visa right now, but soon ETIAS will be required and the E.U's intention is anyone over staying will have thier ETIAS cancelled and therefore you will have to re-apply but your be re-applying with a criminal record and therefore may not get another one.

With respect, some of your statements are wrong.

1. UK is a Third Country and its citizens are subject to the 90/180 Days Rule because the UK Government declined the EU offer of a 180 day stay limit
2. The Schengen Zone Stay applies to both France and Spain in your example, and, since most UK citizens travel via France, they will be 'stamped in' and stamped out' by French Border Guards under the 90/180 Day Rules that apply across the Schengen Zone so neither France nor Spain can waive or ignore the days spent inside the Schengen Zone
3. The French are not concerned with whether the [UK in your example] citizen has visited Spain, Portugal, Germany or any other EU Member State, because Freedom of Movement is designed specifically to permit as fluid a passage across borders as possible, hence the establishment of the Schengen Zone
4. Schengen Freedom of Movement means that no Spanish Visas is necessary. Stays are limited to the 90/180 Day Rules. Spain has a 'Mobile Worker' [name not correct] Visa for non-citizens who can work remotely, but there is Tourist Visa AFAIK
5. Keeping Receipts for Spain, but not doing so for France and keeping the camera/phone off makes no sense. See Point 2 above; if there is an error/oversight with the 'Stamping In/Stamping Out' of UK Passports, the error can be corrected by reasonable evidence, such as Ferry Tickets for each journey later. The Border Guard Technical Manual states that Travellers are to be treated as innocent and with respect, so the retrospective stamping of a Passport on arrival during Journey 2 for an omission/error on Journey 1 is routine. There is a Member on another Forum hich you are familiar with that needs to do this because of a Stamping Error at Dunkerque
5. ETIAS and the Entry/Exit Electronic Systems should combine to make quicker/more accurate checking of Third Country Passports and are anticipated to improve the detection of overstays. Passport checks will still be required with Biometric Data checks against the core information held on ETIAS

Steve

 

[GMJ]

...and breathe!

 

[Boris7]

With respect, some of your statements are wrong.

1. UK is a Third Country and its citizens are subject to the 90/180 Days Rule because the UK Government declined the EU offer of a 180 day stay limit
2. The Schengen Zone Stay applies to both France and Spain in your example, and, since most UK citizens travel via France, they will be 'stamped in' and stamped out' by French Border Guards under the 90/180 Day Rules that apply across the Schengen Zone so neither France nor Spain can waive or ignore the days spent inside the Schengen Zone
3. The French are not concerned with whether the [UK in your example] citizen has visited Spain, Portugal, Germany or any other EU Member State, because Freedom of Movement is designed specifically to permit as fluid a passage across borders as possible, hence the establishment of the Schengen Zone
4. Schengen Freedom of Movement means that no Spanish Visas is necessary. Stays are limited to the 90/180 Day Rules. Spain has a 'Mobile Worker' [name not correct] Visa for non-citizens who can work remotely, but there is Tourist Visa AFAIK
5. Keeping Receipts for Spain, but not doing so for France and keeping the camera/phone off makes no sense. See Point 2 above; if there is an error/oversight with the 'Stamping In/Stamping Out' of UK Passports, the error can be corrected by reasonable evidence, such as Ferry Tickets for each journey later. The Border Guard Technical Manual states that Travellers are to be treated as innocent and with respect, so the retrospective stamping of a Passport on arrival during Journey 2 for an omission/error on Journey 1 is routine. There is a Member on another Forum hich you are familiar with that needs to do this because of a Stamping Error at Dunkerque
5. ETIAS and the Entry/Exit Electronic Systems should combine to make quicker/more accurate checking of Third Country Passports and are anticipated to improve the detection of overstays. Passport checks will still be required with Biometric Data checks against the core information held on ETIAS

Steve

Firstly (and please don't read any agression into my earlier post or this one, my intention was to supply information from experience) to the original post about consequences of over staying.

1. No reply, I'm not doing politics, the UK decision is not in my opinion relivent, its been and gone.

2-5 My post was about the mecahics of dealing with the current circumstances only, your right BUT points 3-5 miss the point of those who have applied for visa's in individual EU state (I simply used Spain as an example)

4. If there is a Schengen wide tourist visa available to 3rd party states then GREAT news can you please supply a link for people to apply, you'll be a hero (no sarcasum I know a man who will simply love you)

5. I was talking about people who have permission to stay in Spain, and the issues others have faced.

5. Etais (your second 5) ETAIS your missing the point for third party counties, it will allow the Schengen pact to easier restrict third party residence who make themselves unatractive (such as overstaying, which is the point of this thread)

None of this matters to me or mine, I'm an EU resident passport holder with property and a right to stay in the EU.

 

[spigot]

If I was a few years younger what I would do is what I’ve done 3 times in the past when the weather in southern Spain wasn’t up to scratch.
Drive to Algeciras, jump on a ferry, 13km across the straits to Morocco €180 open return which you can recoup after a couple of weeks cos everything is so cheap over there.
Spend 90 days over there, come back to Spain for another 90 days, this way one can spend 9 months over there.
It’s not quite so easy as this because when I went pre Brexit Morocco was classed as being under the same umbrella as Europe & we had ADAC breakdown.
But might be still worth thinking about

 

[Boris7]

If I was a few years younger what I would do is what I’ve done 3 times in the past when the weather in southern Spain wasn’t up to scratch.
Drive to Algeciras, jump on a ferry, 13km across the straits to Morocco €180 open return which you can recoup after a couple of weeks cos everything is so cheap over there.
Spend 90 days over there, come back to Spain for another 90 days, this way one can spend 9 months over there.
It’s not quite so easy as this because when I went pre Brexit Morocco was classed as being under the same umbrella as Europe & we had ADAC breakdown.
But might be still worth thinking about

I'm going back to Morocco sometime soon, heading down to Marrakech, just because....

 

[marchie]

Firstly (and please don't read any agression into my earlier post or this one, my intention was to supply information from experience) to the original post about consequences of over staying.

1. No reply, I'm not doing politics, the UK decision is not in my opinion relivent, its been and gone.

2-5 My post was about the mecahics of dealing with the current circumstances only, your right BUT points 3-5 miss the point of those who have applied for visa's in individual EU state (I simply used Spain as an example)

4. If there is a Schengen wide tourist visa available to 3rd party states then GREAT news can you please supply a link for people to apply, you'll be a hero (no sarcasum I know a man who will simply love you)

5. I was talking about people who have permission to stay in Spain, and the issues others have faced.

5. Etais (your second 5) ETAIS your missing the point for third party counties, it will allow the Schengen pact to easier restrict third party residence who make themselves unatractive (such as overstaying, which is the point of this thread)

None of this matters to me or mine, I'm an EU resident passport holder with property and a right to stay in the EU.

1. I wasn't making political points; I was setting the context for completeness by explaining why EU Citizens visiting UK have longer stay rights

2.-5 I disagree. France is the only EU Member State to offer a Short Stay Visa of 6 months AFAIK. The remaining Member States apply the 90/180 Day Rule, apart from the Spanish 'Remote Worker' Visa

4. There is no Schengen Tourist Visa; it's not needed because of Freedom of Movement ['FOM']. FOM applies to UK visitors, but within the constraints of the 90/180 Day Regs for Third Countries

5. Re receipts; it still makes no sense and is not relevant. The 90/180 Day Regs apply and the 'stamping in/stamping out' of Passports at any Schengen Border is proof of meeting these criteria. Missing Passport Stamps can be applied retrospectively as I outlined in my original reply

5. ETIAS; I didn't miss the point I said that ETAIS & the Entry/Exit System will operate in tandem and should make it easier to detect overstays. It has NO AIM/PURPOSE in restricting what you describe as 'third party residence', a term which AFAIK does not appear in either ETIAS or the Entry/Exit System. I suggest that it is you who has misinterpreted the Regs and terminology

The purpose of my original reply was to point out errors in your post. I am happy to stand by my original reply and this post. We can agree to differ

Steve

 

[marchie]

Be sure to check the date stamp in your passport.

On my first trip since the Schengen rules applied the date was wrong showing the previous day's date.

It sounds trivial but it might have consequences.

I suspect that a re-entry ban for a period of time could well be the preferred penalty if you overstay. In my view the risk of that is more than sufficient to make sure I stay within the 90 days!

The Border Guard Technical Manual contains a provision for incorrect/missing date stamps to be rectified retrospectively if the Passport Holder can provide reasonable proof, such as a Ferry Ticket of the correct departure date. The Manual also stipulates that the Guard shall treat the traveller with courtesy and respect and remembering that the vast majority of travellers are crossing borders for leisure/going about their ordianry business, so the correction of the stamping date should be simple and quick

The '1 day error' may not cause you a problem now, but, if you are planning a 2nd trip within the 180 day period, it could prove crucial, especially around the 'sweet spot' where moving a planned departure back by a couple of days will trigger the 'decaying days' from Trip 1, meaning that the 2nd Trip that would only permit, say, 50 days away, could be extended by 1 day every day, as Trip 1 falls off the 180 day countback

I played around with a Member's proposed 2nd Trip dates and entered 5th August as the proposed Leave Date, and the Schengen Visa Calculator authorised something like 45 days. But moving the proposed Leave Date back to 8th August added something like 20 days to the 2nd trip allowance, becasue at no point would the planned stay exceed 90 days

And, before you say it, yes, I do need to get a life ...

Steve

 

[Annsman]

That's good to know.

Coming out of UK this summer the border guard stamped my passport despite him having my Spanish residency card.
I don't think he should have stamped it (haven't in past) and we won't be returning for the best part of a year at earliest.

I wasn't too concerned as assumed on returning, my residency card would solve any problems and show that the passport should not have been stamped, but I guess we shall see.

It might affect your residency card if you are away from Spain for over 90 days! Normally they can't check where you are, but now you have a passport stamp with the date you left Spain. It also mens you will need to get it stamped on your return to prove you have re-entered the country. It might not matter until you have to produce some sort of documentation, say for medical treatment. These databases are more and more becoming collated.

 

[jacquigem]

It might affect your residency card if you are away from Spain for over 90 days! Normally they can't check where you are, but now you have a passport stamp with the date you left Spain. It also mens you will need to get it stamped on your return to prove you have re-entered the country. It might not matter until you have to produce some sort of documentation, say for medical treatment. These databases are more and more becoming collated.

Ah , that could be problematic as not stamped on way back in but I made sure I returned within 90 days . I do have some paperwork for tunnel crossing and fuel purchases .
Not really sure what I can do?
If I go back to the UK I reckon they will let me in on my uk passport and going thr other way I will just show them my residency card ?

 

[Drover]

You can get six month visas for France and Spain I believe and some motorhomers have done it. It's complicated, expensive and not guaranteed but it's certainly doable. There are a couple of threads about it on the various forums and possibly on here.

Mind you we could just quietly rejoin the single market and we will be back to spending half the year in Europe and no more roaming charges.

You pay £120 for the 6 month french long stay tourist visa.
Very easy to get, though you do have to have 1 visit to the embassy.
When I find the details on my phone I'll post it up.
Spain apparently have a 6 month visa for non eu members who have Spanish residents/citizens who are very close family members.
I'll check that out when I get to my daughter's later in the year.
Which ever you had would give nearly 12 months in Europe .
89 days - 180 day ith stamped Visa- 89 day. i have the details on how it's done just got to find it.

Edit, found 1 bit.

Firstly, application form is completed on the French government site. We applied for a Temporary Long Stay Visa which will allow us to stay in France for up to six months. You can add applications to the main application for spouse or other family members. Once application(s) are completed you make an account with company called TLS Contact, linking up your application on the French Government site to your account with TLS. At this point you set a date to go to their offices (London, Manchester and Edinburgh, from memory) to go through the paperwork that you will then need to get together. All the paperwork you have to get together is listed by TLS. A tip from us is to also include an itinerary of your route and an address for the first campsite you stay at, as well as a letter of explanation of your travels and they requested this information. I also was checking for emails from TLS, when they had sent request for more information via my TLS account, which was the cause of delay. I did a quick Google maps route and booked our first site in France before sending this information by recorded delivery to TLS. Once they received this, our visas arrived within a week.

The visit to TLS is longwinded, rather than complex. Ensure you get there in plenty of time and take a book to read (signs saying no phones) and we are there for a good 3.5 hours, mostly waiting. We now can go over to EU until 10th October, although we are still limited to Schengen limit for any EU countries outside of France. As we intend to spend time in Croatia too, this will hopefully all work out well for a long 5-6 months away.

EDIT: On the application form it requests the address you are staying at during your stay. I put 'Various, France' in this section as we obviously aren't staying in one place. I would recommend giving an address of a site in your letter of explanation as the first stopover, along with a suggested route you will take. Hope this helps anyone else interested in doing the same.

 

[barryd]

You pay £120 for the 6 month french long stay tourist visa.
Very easy to get, though you do have to have 1 visit to the embassy.
When I find the details on my phone I'll post it up.
Spain apparently have a 6 month visa for non eu members who have Spanish residents/citizens who are very close family members.
I'll check that out when I get to my daughter's later in the year.
Which ever you had would give nearly 12 months in Europe .
89 days - 180 day ith stamped Visa- 89 day. i have the details on how it's done just got to find it.

Edit, found 1 bit.

Firstly, application form is completed on the French government site. We applied for a Temporary Long Stay Visa which will allow us to stay in France for up to six months. You can add applications to the main application for spouse or other family members. Once application(s) are completed you make an account with company called TLS Contact, linking up your application on the French Government site to your account with TLS. At this point you set a date to go to their offices (London, Manchester and Edinburgh, from memory) to go through the paperwork that you will then need to get together. All the paperwork you have to get together is listed by TLS. A tip from us is to also include an itinerary of your route and an address for the first campsite you stay at, as well as a letter of explanation of your travels and they requested this information. I also was checking for emails from TLS, when they had sent request for more information via my TLS account, which was the cause of delay. I did a quick Google maps route and booked our first site in France before sending this information by recorded delivery to TLS. Once they received this, our visas arrived within a week.

The visit to TLS is longwinded, rather than complex. Ensure you get there in plenty of time and take a book to read (signs saying no phones) and we are there for a good 3.5 hours, mostly waiting. We now can go over to EU until 10th October, although we are still limited to Schengen limit for any EU countries outside of France. As we intend to spend time in Croatia too, this will hopefully all work out well for a long 5-6 months away.

EDIT: On the application form it requests the address you are staying at during your stay. I put 'Various, France' in this section as we obviously aren't staying in one place. I would recommend giving an address of a site in your letter of explanation as the first stopover, along with a suggested route you will take. Hope this helps anyone else interested in doing the same.

That doesnt sound problematic at all! What could possibly go wrong?

I am aware of the procedure. I think there was a long thread about it a while back either here or on Facts.

I'll probably go that route if we ever get a new van sorted. What's that saying? You won't miss it until it's gone or summat like that.

 

[Deleted member 86180]

I'm OK, Neil, because Elaine has her Irish Passport, so, as long as she doesn't divorce me [or pour any more freshly made coffee into my crotch ...], I benefit from her EU Citizenship Freedom of Travel! I was just pointing out the mistaken belief expressed elsewhere that 'nobody checks' the Schengen Entry/Exit Dates'

Because I am an anal retentive/OCD, I have the Border Guard Technical Manual on my phone alongside my COVID Jag Certificates [for the next time!], my Declaration sur l'honneur [for the next time], all Ferry Tickets since Brexit, details of every itinerary including dates of stay and duration whilst in Europe, and photos/selfies etc of various cities we passed through, so that everything can be cross referenced to prove my bona fides. And I have paper documentation including Birth & Marriage Certificates and Divorce Papers for back up, just in case ...

I was stopped once by the Border Guard who queried the kit/tools etc bits of furniture etc. I explained that we were renovating our hovel in France and whipped out my laptop, offering to how him the 600+ photos we had of the before/during/after renovations, including me up to my wellies in fresh concrete etc. He quickly lost interest and we were waved through ... [Think my reputation for talking for far too long may have preceded me]

Steve

I looked into this matter very extensively last February prior to our six month tour of Europe. Ended up with a letter from the European Commission authorising my unhindered protection for 180 days, the same protection as my wife’s. I’m sure I shared it here with some redaction last year?

I also have a wife with an Irish passport. It entitles me to freedom of movement throughout Europe providing I’m accompanied by her at all times. It’s a protection authorised by Article 8 of the ECHR. “The right to respect for your family and private life, your home and your correspondence”

The only bona fide documents you need to carry with you apart from passports (as stated in my letter) is your marriage certificate.

We spent several weeks in non Schengen countries - all totally irrelevant given our circumstances, but after crossing 29 European borders we re-entered the U.K. to get home to the Isle of Man (a place neither U.K. or UK) via Rotterdam. The charming young Customs Officer who dealt with us firstly couldn’t understand why my passport was full of ink and my wife’s wasn’t! After checking with his supervisor (a joke because most border crossings either didn’t bother to stamp my passport or there wasn’t any border control!), the supervisor smiled and waved us on to the ferry!

Only trying to clear up the Irish connection here and not advocating any sort of confusion technique to avoid the 90 day rule

As an aside, it would be interesting to know if anyone knows of or even ‘heard of’ anyone being fined for outstaying their welcome in Europe since Brexit? Sorry - strike the ‘heard of’ bit

 

[jimbohorlicks]

If I was a few years younger what I would do is what I’ve done 3 times in the past when the weather in southern Spain wasn’t up to scratch.
Drive to Algeciras, jump on a ferry, 13km across the straits to Morocco €180 open return which you can recoup after a couple of weeks cos everything is so cheap over there.
Spend 90 days over there, come back to Spain for another 90 days, this way one can spend 9 months over there.
It’s not quite so easy as this because when I went pre Brexit Morocco was classed as being under the same umbrella as Europe & we had ADAC breakdown.
But might be still worth thinking about

Did you buy your ferry ticket on line or with the famous Carlos?

 

[barryd]

Just as aside I was talking online to someone yesterday who was using the French six month visa for the second year successfully which I knew about but what I hadn't realised is this could effectively give you nearly 9 months travel in Europe if you spend the first six months in France. Once your six month French visa has expired you can then spend a further 90 days in Schengen.

 

[spigot]

Did you buy your ferry ticket on line or with the famous Carlos?

Bought ticket in person from Carlos Gutierrez at Pol. Ind. Palmones. I.
If you say you're a member of Motorhome Fun you might get 10% discuento but if his daughter is running the office, she will want see membership card!
Tip... As Morocco is (supposedly) a Muslim country it is difficult to buy booze (and expensive) there, On the ferry I load up with duty free Larios gin (about 7 euros a litre) and for some strange reason every little corner shop sells Shweppes Tonic Water!?
A pal of mine to subsidise his trip, loads his luton with Spanish Brandy & Gin & resells to the natives at 300% profit!

 

[jacquigem]

Bought ticket in person from Carlos Gutierrez at Pol. Ind. Palmones. I.
If you say you're a member of Motorhome Fun you might get 10% discuento but if his daughter is running the office, she will want see membership card!
Tip... As Morocco is (supposedly) a Muslim country it is difficult to buy booze (and expensive) there, On the ferry I load up with duty free Larios gin (about 7 euros a litre) and for some strange reason every little corner shop sells Shweppes Tonic Water!?
A pal of mine to subsidise his trip, loads his luton with Spanish Brandy & Gin & resells to the natives at 300% profit!

I'm Tunisia used to get a new made to measure leather jacket for a bottle of scotch.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Bought ticket in person from Carlos Gutierrez at Pol. Ind. Palmones. I.
If you say you're a member of Motorhome Fun you might get 10% discuento but if his daughter is running the office, she will want see membership card!
Tip... As Morocco is (supposedly) a Muslim country it is difficult to buy booze (and expensive) there, On the ferry I load up with duty free Larios gin (about 7 euros a litre) and for some strange reason every little corner shop sells Shweppes Tonic Water!?
A pal of mine to subsidise his trip, loads his luton with Spanish Brandy & Gin & resells to the natives at 300% profit!

Which ferry to Morocco did you use ,to Ceuta or Tangier Med? What were the customs checks like?