Charging lithium from the Alternator

[Pudsey Bear]

I've ordered a LA battery from Alpha batteries

 

[Nabsim]

Yeah, I'm pretty much there now, pointless getting Lithium unless I need the facility they bring, LC is out on cost, a pointless option for me, LA is enough I think, always has been for most people who don't run electric fridges etc.

I'll put in an order with Alpha and pay in three with Paypal, I'm skint now after buying the wheelchair, and have not managed to sell the scooter yet.

Are you sizing the battery right though Kev? If 120Ah lead is adequate for your needs you would gain usable capacity with a 50Ah Lifepo4 battery

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Are you sizing the battery right though Kev? If 120Ah lead is adequate for your needs you would gain usable capacity with a 50Ah Lifepo4 battery

Ordered it Neil, I have to bear in ming that the existing LB has done almost all required of it despite being well below par for the past four years so a new one will likely as some git pointed out last longer than me, but he is a TW*T

 

[Nabsim]

Ordered it Neil, I have to bear in ming that the existing LB has done almost all required of it despite being well below par for the past four years so a new one will likely as some git pointed out last longer than me, but he is a TW*T

Was going purely on cost what with you being a Yorkshireman Kev

 

[barryd]

These batteries have a 150 cycle at 50% DOD.
If you discharge them less than this you would get far more cycles.
But 120ah indicates a max discharge of 60ah which is normal for a lead battery.

I generally get six or seven years out of a LA. Its always amazed me how long they last when you consider most years we are away in the van for six months of the year. So far as said ours are only getting depleted by 10 to 20% over any 24 hour period. Jury is out on these new Alpha Expedition. We will see. At the end of the day they cost about the same as a full tank of diesel and nothing to change in the van. Throw away items really.

 

[Fisherman]

I watched this video a year ago and I reckon it’s the best explanation I have seen of why drop in batteries on a van with the wrong charging system is a myth. Ok it’s from the US and the mains voltage and some of the equipment is different, but the principles are the same. Spend 16 minutes carefully listening to this guy and you will have learnt a lot.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I generally get six or seven years out of a LA. Its always amazed me how long they last when you consider most years we are away in the van for six months of the year. So far as said ours are only getting depleted by 10 to 20% over any 24 hour period. Jury is out on these new Alpha Expedition. We will see. At the end of the day they cost about the same as a full tank of diesel and nothing to change in the van. Throw away items really.

Precisely my reasoning, and I have twice as much solar as last winter.

Seems I may have killed my Gizmott too. Not certain, but the new LB will make it more obvious if I did.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I watched this video a year ago and I reckon it’s the best explanation I have seen of why drop in batteries on a van with the wrong charging system is a myth. Ok it’s from the US and the mains voltage and some of the equipment is different, but the principles are the same. Spend 16 minutes carefully listening to this guy and you will have learnt a lot.

Sheesh Bill, everyday a skool day.

 

[Fisherman]

I generally get six or seven years out of a LA. Its always amazed me how long they last when you consider most years we are away in the van for six months of the year. So far as said ours are only getting depleted by 10 to 20% over any 24 hour period. Jury is out on these new Alpha Expedition. We will see. At the end of the day they cost about the same as a full tank of diesel and nothing to change in the van. Throw away items really.

And the reason for the battery longevity is small discharge.
In our last van we struggled in winter with 2x 100ah lead AGM batteries Barry.
We had 220w of solar.
In summer our batteries never went below 70% due to solar, but in winter we had to take them down to 50% and that was with us being careful. We would only watch the tv for an hour during the day, and did not put it on until 9 at night. We even used battery lighting which I could charge on USB. but we struggled. Due to this the batteries failed after 2.5 years.
Now with more solar, (330w) 2x100 ah lithium in summer off grid we don’t go below 80% and that’s with the tv on whenever we want, lights on as long as we want, and the big difference we now use a victron phoenix 1200 inverter which David kindly fitted to the max 1kw. My wife can now dry her hair with a one KW hairdryer and use her mains powered hair straightness. In winter we have to monitor things with the inverter, but that’s the only sacrifice (if you can call it that ) we have to make. As I said lithium has been a game changer for us. I could even double my battery capacity if I chose to do so. I could fit another two 100ah lithiums under the passenger seat. But currently I don’t think we need to. But if I had a compressor fridge that’s an option I would go for.

 

[trevskoda]

Are there any garages still using old style drop testers? All the ones I know use electronic testers and have for years.

They dont bother here, just say you need a new battery,sale sale sale.

 

[barryd]

And the reason for the battery longevity is small discharge.
In our last van we struggled in winter with 2x 100ah lead AGM batteries Barry.
We had 220w of solar.
In summer our batteries never went below 70% due to solar, but in winter we had to take them down to 50% and that was with us being careful. We would only watch the tv for an hour during the day, and did not put it on until 9 at night. We even used battery lighting which I could charge on USB. but we struggled. Due to this the batteries failed after 2.5 years.
Now with more solar, (330w) 2x100 ah lithium in summer off grid we don’t go below 80% and that’s with the tv on whenever we want, lights on as long as we want, and the big difference we now use a victron phoenix 1200 inverter which David kindly fitted to the max 1kw. My wife can now dry her hair with a one KW hairdryer and use her mains powered hair straightness. In winter we have to monitor things with the inverter, but that’s the only sacrifice (if you can call it that ) we have to make. As I said lithium has been a game changer for us. I could even double my battery capacity if I chose to do so. I could fit another two 100ah lithiums under the passenger seat. But currently I don’t think we need to. But if I had a compressor fridge that’s an option I would go for.

Sounds good Bill but come the back end and certainly winter I just want to be hooked up. Im not nearly as gnarly a wild camper as some.

 

[barryd]

Precisely my reasoning, and I have twice as much solar as last winter.

Seems I may have killed my Gizmott too. Not certain, but the new LB will make it more obvious if I did.

How have you killed the Gizmott? I cant even remember where it is or how it works. Don't tell Merl.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Merlin is well aware, we're not sure, but he's doing a more advanced one I think, although this one did exactly as planned.

It just follows the level of the LB and sends just enough to keep the VB topped up.

 

[barryd]

Merlin is well aware, we're not sure, but he's doing a more advanced one I think, although this one did exactly as planned.

It just follows the level of the LB and sends just enough to keep the VB topped up.

You had better not be getting that before me! I'm a Rock Star remember and far more important.

 

[trevskoda]

I watched this video a year ago and I reckon it’s the best explanation I have seen of why drop in batteries on a van with the wrong charging system is a myth. Ok it’s from the US and the mains voltage and some of the equipment is different, but the principles are the same. Spend 16 minutes carefully listening to this guy and you will have learnt a lot.

13.8v my bum, most alts pump 14.4v to any l acid battery.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

The new LA arrived yesterday 25kg, felt a lot more. I had the driver put it onto the driver's seat, and I managed to get it into the back of the van, but that was enough, I'm paying for it now, I'm going to see Merlin next month so it'll have to wait til then to be fitted.

I also ordered this https://amzn.eu/d/1AvE0BL hoping to have a bit more info on what is going on, but it just occurred to me, which battery should I be fitting it too, LB or VB? btw I only paid.

Not sure how I'll fit it though.

 

[trevskoda]

The new LA arrived yesterday 25kg, felt a lot more. I had the driver put it onto the driver's seat, and I managed to get it into the back of the van, but that was enough, I'm paying for it now, I'm going to see Merlin next month so it'll have to wait til then to be fitted.

I also ordered this https://amzn.eu/d/1AvE0BL hoping to have a bit more info on what is going on, but it just occurred to me, which battery should I be fitting it too, LB or VB? btw I only paid.

Not sure how I'll fit it though.

View attachment 145151

A mth, make sure you give it a float charge every week or it will not be good to site idle.

 

[Geek]

That video has been generally discredited, Kev. It does bring up some interesting points but the 'test' environment could be considered as rigged to create a worst-case situation and one which is very unlikely for vehicles.

Having said that, the conclusion (IIRC, as not watched it for years) was sound enough in saying a B2B should be used for Lithium to control the load, but will your van explode if you don't? unlikely.

Absolutely. That video is a series of almost-true distortions.

For a start, it says that alternators run at less than 1200rpm at idle. That's clearly not the case. Yes, most engines idle at about 600 to 900rpm but the alternator pulley is way smaller than the crankshaft pulley. At idle, my uninformed guess is that the alternator is doing about 1500 rpm. But I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has facts.

Secondly, motorhomes have the alternator connected to the starter battery, and that is never lithium in a sensible setup.

Then they do the tests with no 'battery manager' even though they say one is always required.

Anyone who installs lithium batteries will need some way to charge them using a profile that differs for the separate battery types.

Most people use a B2B charger. Not using one not only misses some of the benefits of lithium but also risks damaging the expensive batteries.

Final.point: the video says that some lithium battery management systems disconnect the charge circuit when fully charged and implies that the voltage surge could be damaging. Has anyone ever seen one that does this? As far as I know, they all gradually reduce the charge current as they get near full charge.
How could they separate the charge circuit when they only have one connection ro the vehicle wiring?

 

[colinm]

For a start, it says that alternators run at less than 1200rpm at idle. That's clearly not the case. Yes, most engines idle at about 600 to 900rpm but the alternator pulley is way smaller than the crankshaft pulley. At idle, my uninformed guess is that the alternator is doing about 1500 rpm. But I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has facts.

A smaller pulley on the alternator turns it at a higher speed.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

A smaller pulley on the alternator turns it at a higher speed.

Isn't that what he said Colin?