oldish hippy
Full Member
- Posts
- 12,320
- Likes
- 8,086
was going to say that but didnt want to write a falsehood only what i have been led to believe by reading the forum lol
MichaelU
Guest
Going back to the OP, Boy, this isn 't an easy one!
I guess I am a traveller, I wish to have the freedom to park up where I fancy and not to have some local councillors plastering the country with signs and prohibition notices. I do so with a conscience and what I always hoped was a good moral compass as set by my Ma and Pa.
Where I depart from the life of the Romany traveller is that I don't impose my long term residency on the communities I visit.
If travellers wish to enjoy residency, schools, doctors etc they are by definition, no longer travellers. Purchasing land for residency is quite an undertaking and commitment, but sadly failing to integrate with the community creates disharmony. The same is true of some Asian communities in our inner cities. If you're investing in a place to live, you must also invest in the community you are joining.
The same goes for our community. If we park up and don't smile, say hello and make an effort when we park up for our brief stay, we miss out on meeting new people in some lovely communities and we don't integrate. We become disliked and up go the signs. It's hard making the effort too when all you really want is the quiet and seclusion but it's a better way to live than buried by politically motivated rules and impositions that take away much of the fun and many of the freedoms from our lives.
I need a drink.....
I guess I am a traveller, I wish to have the freedom to park up where I fancy and not to have some local councillors plastering the country with signs and prohibition notices. I do so with a conscience and what I always hoped was a good moral compass as set by my Ma and Pa.
Where I depart from the life of the Romany traveller is that I don't impose my long term residency on the communities I visit.
If travellers wish to enjoy residency, schools, doctors etc they are by definition, no longer travellers. Purchasing land for residency is quite an undertaking and commitment, but sadly failing to integrate with the community creates disharmony. The same is true of some Asian communities in our inner cities. If you're investing in a place to live, you must also invest in the community you are joining.
The same goes for our community. If we park up and don't smile, say hello and make an effort when we park up for our brief stay, we miss out on meeting new people in some lovely communities and we don't integrate. We become disliked and up go the signs. It's hard making the effort too when all you really want is the quiet and seclusion but it's a better way to live than buried by politically motivated rules and impositions that take away much of the fun and many of the freedoms from our lives.
I need a drink.....
Last edited:
Rubbertramp
Guest
I would add to that..... "and a politically motivated climate of fear backed up by frenzied media hatred".......Hats off to you Micheal.....:cheers: Cheers
MichaelU
Guest
It's why I unbolt "no overnight parking" signs LOL!
Pollik
Guest
Nice post, Michael.
Non integration is also a large why of why immigrant communities are resented.
Polly
Non integration is also a large why of why immigrant communities are resented.
Polly
John H
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,537
- Likes
- 3,932
Absolutely agree and would add two points:
1. The lack of attempt to integrate is not limited to one group - be they Romany, Asian or anybody else - it also applies to many Brits who set up home abroad (eg Spain). People should be judged by their actions not by their origin.
2. Investing in the community includes accepting the laws of that community - your commendable statement does not tie in with your less than commendable advocacy of criminal damage with respect to road signs. Its deja vu all over again! :scared:
Pollik
Guest
This can be a tricky one. The laws imposed in a community are frequently imposed from outside, meaning that it can be the case that the community itself does not respect the laws, but in a general sense I agree with you.
Polly
bigmeeky
Guest
Difficult one
There is no doubt that this is a tricky subject which makes contributors either sound like the Third Reich clearing the Jewish Ghettos or Swampy.
I live on a farm a mile or so from this site and we have had numerous incidents invovling the residents, none of them positive Im afraid, problems range from fly tipping, attempted theft of scrap, (we caught a lad whose flat bed had overturned when he tried to pick up a tonne of metal with a hiab on the back of the wagon), break ins to my sister in laws house (caught on CCTV), theft of machinery, hare coursing etc etc. Needless to say we will welcome the clearance of the site, sadly there some residents will remain as will the problems.
If these people adopted a different attitude to life, their surroundings and neighbours then the feelings people have towards them would be diferent. At present they seem to be making placards galore, when the tax man drops a letter they cant read or write!
I fear I may start ranting so I will end this, although I may add that I recently had planning permission refused, perhaps I should just build my extensionanyway and just ignore all the correpondence, go to all the court (for which the people of Basildon are paying 1/3 of the costs!!!!!), and just ignore authority.
Thats my bit, had your fun taken the piss right royally, time to go, and please go and live far far away!!!!
There is no doubt that this is a tricky subject which makes contributors either sound like the Third Reich clearing the Jewish Ghettos or Swampy.
I live on a farm a mile or so from this site and we have had numerous incidents invovling the residents, none of them positive Im afraid, problems range from fly tipping, attempted theft of scrap, (we caught a lad whose flat bed had overturned when he tried to pick up a tonne of metal with a hiab on the back of the wagon), break ins to my sister in laws house (caught on CCTV), theft of machinery, hare coursing etc etc. Needless to say we will welcome the clearance of the site, sadly there some residents will remain as will the problems.
If these people adopted a different attitude to life, their surroundings and neighbours then the feelings people have towards them would be diferent. At present they seem to be making placards galore, when the tax man drops a letter they cant read or write!
I fear I may start ranting so I will end this, although I may add that I recently had planning permission refused, perhaps I should just build my extensionanyway and just ignore all the correpondence, go to all the court (for which the people of Basildon are paying 1/3 of the costs!!!!!), and just ignore authority.
Thats my bit, had your fun taken the piss right royally, time to go, and please go and live far far away!!!!
cooljules
Guest
my friends last year put down a few foot of decking, and a wooden roof. as i was very ill last year and couldnt get out and about or go into town with them, after having major surgery. so it meant i could sit outisde in the garden and stay dry if it rained.....
the council are taking me to crown court, as i refuse to take it down, they originally said it was dangerous, yet it was the only thing standing over the last year, with the huge amount of snow and wind, so many chiminies and roofs collapsed yet mine stayed put.
i have had arguement after argument with them about this and other things. it really takes the p*ss. while my garden isnt the best on the street, the worst half are just left like jungles and never touched.
the council are taking me to crown court, as i refuse to take it down, they originally said it was dangerous, yet it was the only thing standing over the last year, with the huge amount of snow and wind, so many chiminies and roofs collapsed yet mine stayed put.
i have had arguement after argument with them about this and other things. it really takes the p*ss. while my garden isnt the best on the street, the worst half are just left like jungles and never touched.
mustardseed
Guest
All sorts of persons I may consider "undesirable" originate from or have come to live in the same town I have chosen to make my home. Many of them contribute absolutely nothing and a number cause considerable problems. However, that doesn't give anyone grounds for removing them.
If you look at the pictures of the site before and after the scrapyard section (which is the part on greenbelt land) was turned into living accommodation, it looks as if the entire site has become much more presentable and less of an eyesore overall than it was in those days, which makes one start to wonder exactly what people are complaining about. The BBC have already run a story about the fact that there is virtually nowhere else for those who are legitimate travellers left to go in the entire country (the authority with the most vacancies only had 5 pitches), despite local authorities being required to provide sites for travellers.
And as for the greenbelt issue, I'm concerned to protect greenbelt land myself, yet round here planning law goes out the window when first the doctors want to build a new surgery to serve the new estates that have taken over all the fields, and then that sets a precedent and developers start to get planning permission to build yet more houses next to the surgery, arguing that they are "environmentally friendly", whilst there is currently highly dangerous access to and from the road...... this new development will, of course, massively help homeless people, since it incorporates about 3 "affordable housing" units.
Oh, and by the way I have had a Roma family camping on my land in the past with my full agreement and permission. They never caused any problems at all and even most of the neighbours who were very suspicious came to like and respect them in the end.
cooljules
Guest
sounds like perfect reason to remove them.........................
Pollik
Guest
All those are excellent reasons not to like your neighbours...it must be like living next to sink estate, which are usually occupied by people who are not travellers.
The planning permission or building regulations issue, again you have a valid point, but again it is a far from uncommon happening all across the country, again not travellers.
I don't have any easy solutions, but travellers have problems too, with the assumptions of the evil intent...told to me by a traveller acquaintance who chaired the local residence association, She also told me of the prejudice against her the first time she tried to settle down in bricks and mortar.
I am not trying to defend the wrong doers, but travellers are by no means all crooks and ne'erdowells.
I used to live in Billericay until around 1980, so I have some idea of the area.
Polly
The planning permission or building regulations issue, again you have a valid point, but again it is a far from uncommon happening all across the country, again not travellers.
I don't have any easy solutions, but travellers have problems too, with the assumptions of the evil intent...told to me by a traveller acquaintance who chaired the local residence association, She also told me of the prejudice against her the first time she tried to settle down in bricks and mortar.
I am not trying to defend the wrong doers, but travellers are by no means all crooks and ne'erdowells.
I used to live in Billericay until around 1980, so I have some idea of the area.
Polly
mustardseed
Guest
Jules: if you would like to forward me the relevant info I'll see if there is anything I can do by way of some useful advice, or maybe put you in touch with someone you could get the right advice from. Are you being accused of being in breach of planning laws, or is this about some regulation of whomever owns your property?
cooljules
Guest
well its a big more complicated than that, its a council house. its a nightmare really, months ago my friends put me some paving slabs down, out in the sun with a plastic table and chairs, the council want that up too. the garden was a total jungle when i moved in, tons and tons of rubbish......
worst touble is, the rear access to the garden, i have used for 16 years since i moved in, which is a shared pathway to everyones rears, then suddenly out of the blue weeks ago, im not allowed to use it. i cant get anything in or out (i sold a shed prior to knowing this) and 2 weeks later the removal van turned up, and the scabby neighbours next door stabbed the 2 removal men. i not cant get anything in or out stright into the garden from the road/path where i have done for so long...wheelbarrowed stuff stright in and out. had about 15 mates over the past 18months help me with little jobs.
i was told i was ok to burn dog poo months ago (i did it late at night in a burner everyone week or 2), then told not too. i was ok to have a pond, no permsion, then suddenly i needed permission.
told the council i wont take anything down, as its same, and the nice little expesive brick path (that i got from freecycle) is ok, they want it up....told them i will turn it into a garden of mud and overgrown weeds if i do, like it was when i moved in.
the scabby neighbours next door other week cut lots of nice trees down (with birds nest, although i think had flown) council dont care, dumped rubbish, old tvs, plastic directly on the waste land that runs BEHIND MY end of the garden, they dont care.....
its the same neighbours that cause nothing but trouble, not just for me but for others, only me that stands upto them, hence brake fluid all over my car, keyed, campervan damaged and threatend and assualted......
been accused of having parties when i havent, just total lies.
trying to get a eviction order against me. i have told them for over a year, i need a better house, due to my disiablities, backed up by doc and housing etc. but they dont care.......
its things like this, and seeing those in basildon that make me feel suicidel at times
MichaelU
Guest
Can you have "Deja Vu all over again"? Surely that means "all over again all over again", to be sure to be sure...
John H
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,537
- Likes
- 3,932
Its a quote from American baseball player Yogi Berra, who was even more prone than George W Bush to putting his foot in his mouth. Among other things, he also said "I didn't really say everything I said". The advantage he has over Bush is that despite the nonsense you can actually see what he was trying to say! :have fun:
John H
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,537
- Likes
- 3,932
Surely, in a democracy (however flawed it may be) this is not so. The government is elected by the people, the government passes the laws and there is an implied acceptance that those laws applies not only to those who approved of them but also to the minority who didn't. Thus it cannot be said in our society that the laws are imposed from outside - even in the case of Europe because our government democratically agreed to our entry and the people in a referendum agreed with them. It may be that people have changed their minds since but until the government decides to have another referendum (or is replaced by one who will) we have to accept that we, as a country, decided - no-one from outside forced us. It seems to me that the only countries in which your statement would be valid are those in which there is no democracy.
Pollik
Guest
There are many ways I can think to respond to this.
I like the definition of democracy offered by Wikipedia: "Democracy is a form of government in which all people have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives."
Howard Zinn describes the current system better than I can:
Howard Zinn on Democracy in America | Howard Zinn | Big Think
Looking at voter turnouts, I am not sure many people really feel that we live in democracy. When was the last time a British government was voted in by a majority of the eligible electorate?
Also think about the number of times that local decisions made at a local government or parish level are overturned at central government.
I am not going to respond to the euro referendum issue...that would probably derail the thread entirely!
But, no, I don't agree with you...what you say may be accurate in law, but not in a democracy, IMHO.
Polly
David & Ann
Full Member
- Posts
- 2,561
- Likes
- 629
Hi JH, I agree with what you have said above but I would like to make a point. Although England and it's Govt: as a Democracy agreed to join Europe, which in it's self correct, but what is NOT Democratic, is that the peoples of GB were not offered a Referendum as promised by both the Con: and Lab: It is to be remembered, that was in their Manefesto and because of that, they were voted into power. In the latter part of your post, as stated, " It may be that people have changed their minds since but until the government decides to have another referendum (or is replaced by one who will) we have to accept that we, as a country, decided" Unfortunately, we have NOT had a Referendum, so the peoples on the very onset did not agree, hence, it being undemocratic. Further more, as stated, "no-one from outside forced us" in my opinion, is untrue. Reason being, we were left with no alternitive to join, or except the consequences of being left out of Europe, which would have brought a lot of Political, Industrial and financial distress. I am not in a position to a say, the decision is right or wrong by Con: party or the Lab: Party. I am only saying it was undemocratic for both Parties to offer a Referrendum as part of their manifesto and not abide by their promises to the people.
John H
Full Member
- Posts
- 5,537
- Likes
- 3,932
Hi Polly
As Churchill said (and I paraphrase) "democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others" and we all feel disenfranchised at some time or another. For example, I didn't think much of the choices on offer at the last general election, I don't think much of the quality of our political leaders (in any Party) and I have very little sympathy for most of the decisions being made by this current government. But until someone comes up with a better system, it is the only one we've got and if we really don't like it we are all free to stand for election ourselves. If we can pursuade enough people to think like we do then we will get elected; if we can't then the majority rules the day (whatever we might think about them!).
It is true that we have had few governments elected by more than 50% of the electorate but we recently had a referendum which was convincingly (and in my view incomprehensibly) won by those who want to maintain this system. You and I may think it wrong but the majority voted for it!
As for higher levels overturning the decisions of lower levels - that is also part of our democracy. And, having seen many Parish Councils in operation (or, more appropriately, slumber) if their decisions were binding there would, for example, never be any new housing development anywhere!
One thing is abundently clear - the only sensible form of government is a dictatorship .................run by me! :hammer: